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IWannaKnow
09-22-2011, 12:32 PM
From SW 11-164, page 6, lines 10-14:

On July 13, 2011, Detectives H. Lebitski #2079 and D. Hillen #1635 interviewed Adam Shacknai. Later that same day, Detectives Lebitski and Hillen facilitated a polygraph examination of Adam Shacknai with Polygrapher Paul Redden. Redden said based on the analysis of the polygraph charts, he couldn't draw a conclusion, but felt Adam was being truthful during the examination.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/renowned-polygrapher-jonah-shacknais-brother-needs-take-another-lie-detector-test
Renowned Polygrapher: Jonah Shacknai's Brother Needs To Take Another Lie Detector Test
Posted on Sep 21, 2011 @ 12:45PM

By Jen Heger
Radar Legal Editor


Trimarco routinely works with law enforcement to conduct lie detector tests. Trimarco said he would be willing to conduct another polygraph test of Adam Shacknai, and any other witnesses in the investigation.

"If the test is inconclusive, as it was in this case, you state that you have no opinion, period, end of discussion. This means you run another test, with new questions. Polygraphers aren't trained to judge people's feelings, it's just not something we do, or have the capability of doing. Adam Shacknai needs to be given another polygraph test," Trimarco says.

elementry
09-22-2011, 12:46 PM
From SW 11-164, page 6, lines 10-14:


http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/renowned-polygrapher-jonah-shacknais-brother-needs-take-another-lie-detector-test
Renowned Polygrapher: Jonah Shacknai's Brother Needs To Take Another Lie Detector Test
Posted on Sep 21, 2011 @ 12:45PM

By Jen Heger
Radar Legal Editor

But SD LE's polygrapher had a hunch - or a "feeling" - that AS was being truthful. I know Southern Cali has kind of a vibe-y, new age-y rep, but lord-y, I'd hope Law Enforcement is going on more than "feelings" when drawing conclusions..........

lauriej
09-22-2011, 01:17 PM
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/adam-shacknai-polygrapher-recommended-another-lie-detector-test

AdamShacknaiPolygrapherRecommendedAnotherLieDetect orTest (http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/adam-shacknai-polygrapher-recommended-another-lie-detector-test)


The polygrapher that gave Adam Shacknai his lie detector test, tells RadarOnline.com (http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/adam-shacknai-polygrapher-recommended-another-lie-detector-test) exclusively, that the results of the test were inconclusive, and that he recommended to the San Diego Sheriff's Department that another test be given.

However, Paul Redden tells RadarOnline.com exclusively: "The test results from the polygraph that I gave Adam Shacknai were inconclusive, therefore, I wasn't able to form an analysis from the results of the polygraph test. Adam did not necessarily pass or fail the test. Whenever I deal with an inconclusive result, I always recommend a follow-up test. I have never been asked to do a follow-up test for Adam Shacknai.

Law enforcement officials stated at the press conference that Adam Shacknai had passed the polygraph test.

When contacted for comment, Jan Caldwell, Public Affairs Director for the San Diego Sheriff's Department said: "We put our evidence out there already, and we have no further comment. We won't be talking to RadarOnline, so don't waste your time calling us anymore," and then promptly hung up the phone.

Betty P
09-22-2011, 01:23 PM
So someone in the Sheriff's Dept. made the decision to 1) not request another polygraph test and 2) tell the public at the press conference that Adam had passed the test.

If they felt it was a suicide, why didn't they follow up?

Pach
09-22-2011, 01:28 PM
your gonna hurt their feelings...:floorlaugh:


But SD LE's polygrapher had a hunch - or a "feeling" - that AS was being truthful. I know Southern Cali has kind of a vibe-y, new age-y rep, but lord-y, I'd hope Law Enforcement is going on more than "feelings" when drawing conclusions..........

IWannaKnow
09-22-2011, 01:29 PM
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/adam-shacknai-polygrapher-recommended-another-lie-detector-test

BBM

When contacted for comment, Jan Caldwell, Public Affairs Director for the San Diego Sheriff's Department said: "We put our evidence out there already, and we have no further comment. We won't be talking to RadarOnline, so don't waste your time calling us anymore," and then promptly hung up the phone.

KarenM
09-22-2011, 01:32 PM
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/adam-shacknai-polygrapher-recommended-another-lie-detector-test

AdamShacknaiPolygrapherRecommendedAnotherLieDetect orTest (http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/adam-shacknai-polygrapher-recommended-another-lie-detector-test)

SDPD's handling of the case went beyond being just incompetent. It shows they tried their best to cover something up and make the whole case go away.

Cortne
09-22-2011, 01:35 PM
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/adam-shacknai-polygrapher-recommended-another-lie-detector-test

Uh wow are you serious?


I have been around police work for years, I have always assumed the poly examiner would judge results based on the machine and his expert opinion. Def news to me that this isnt the case. I do not believe in polys so I probably never paid attention.

justbetweenus
09-22-2011, 01:42 PM
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/adam-shacknai-polygrapher-recommended-another-lie-detector-test

AdamShacknaiPolygrapherRecommendedAnotherLieDetect orTest (http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/adam-shacknai-polygrapher-recommended-another-lie-detector-test)

OMG...this is not good. Thanks for posting.

kathyn2
09-22-2011, 03:05 PM
All I will say about this is that I think it is REAL hinky that LE gave AS a pass on this inconclusive polygraph test. Especially considering he is the only one around that we know knows about mariners knots. No proof RZ did. And considering he was the only other person we knew to be around the place that night. Real hinky....

SunnieRN
09-22-2011, 03:23 PM
SDPD's handling of the case went beyond being just incompetent. It shows they tried their best to cover something up and make the whole case go away.

This begs for an answer to ONE word. WHY???

Curious Me
09-22-2011, 08:52 PM
Money and Politics

arielilane
12-14-2012, 10:20 PM
Bump for further discussion.
However, Paul Redden tells RadarOnline.com exclusively: "The test results from the polygraph that I gave Adam Shacknai were inconclusive, therefore, I wasn't able to form an analysis from the results of the polygraph test. Adam did not necessarily pass or fail the test. Whenever I deal with an inconclusive result, I always recommend a follow-up test. I have never been asked to do a follow-up test for Adam Shacknai.


http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/adam-shacknai-polygrapher-recommended-another-lie-detector-test

Law enforcement officials stated at the press conference that Adam Shacknai had passed the polygraph test.

arielilane
12-14-2012, 10:28 PM
Other Rule observations:


Coronado police chief Louis Scanlon spoke to Adam Shacknai, Jonah Shacknai's brother, the only other person investigators said was on the property when Zahau died. Scanlon commiserated with him and Shacknai, who found Zahau's body, cursed, then said “I don't think my bedside manner is that bad …” Rule wrote that Scanlon found his response to be “off the wall.”
Investigators amassed mounds of evidence, from the mansion, guesthouse and courtyard – clothing and hair, fingerprints and DNA, knives and paintbrushes – but failed to test all of it or, she wrote, to thoroughly search all of the property's vast grounds.
Prominent San Diego attorney Paul Pfingst had a cozy relationship with the Sheriff's Department that could have impacted the case. The former San Diego County District Attorney was allowed behind police tape at the mansion while Zahau's body remained onsite and used an unpublished Sheriff's department phone number to reach Adam Shacknai as he was being questioned. “In 35 or more years of writing about crime scenes, I've never seen a case where a potential defense attorney or someone not actually the current prosecutor would be behind the police ribbons that early in the case,” she said.

http://coronado.patch.com/articles/author-ann-rule-someone-killed-rebecca-zahau-coronado-spreckels-fatal-friends

inthedark14
12-14-2012, 11:09 PM
Bump for further discussion.
However, Paul Redden tells RadarOnline.com exclusively: "The test results from the polygraph that I gave Adam Shacknai were inconclusive, therefore, I wasn't able to form an analysis from the results of the polygraph test. Adam did not necessarily pass or fail the test. Whenever I deal with an inconclusive result, I always recommend a follow-up test. I have never been asked to do a follow-up test for Adam Shacknai.


http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/adam-shacknai-polygrapher-recommended-another-lie-detector-test

Law enforcement officials stated at the press conference that Adam Shacknai had passed the polygraph test.

This is another huge nagging thing. Why in the world would they not have re-tested him? Why in the world was NS allowed to make excuses and not do her scheduled test? Doesn't LE have to follow a certain protocol? Follow the leads until they end? If one detective, officer, Sargent decides something must be done, isn't it done?

Worse, is that it was glossed over, lied about. AS passed the test. Not true. MSM blaring this, and SDSO has nothing to say but to tell the Z family that they should cease and desist or they'll "open the file"?

Smacks of wrongdoing....and maybe a cover up.

Always, MOO

bourne
12-15-2012, 12:50 PM
This is another huge nagging thing. Why in the world would they not have re-tested him? Why in the world was NS allowed to make excuses and not do her scheduled test? Doesn't LE have to follow a certain protocol? Follow the leads until they end? If one detective, officer, Sargent decides something must be done, isn't it done?

Worse, is that it was glossed over, lied about. AS passed the test. Not true. MSM blaring this, and SDSO has nothing to say but to tell the Z family that they should cease and desist or they'll "open the file"?

Smacks of wrongdoing....and maybe a cover up.

Always, MOO

Looks like as soon as Pfingst appeared at the Spreckels mansion and stepped over the line into the crime scene, he used his power and influence to completely alter the direction of the "possible foul play" scenario investigators were taking into Becky's death. Didn't the news first report that investigators had immediately thought Becky suffered a "violent suspicious death"? Then Pfingst shows up, and poof! The police changed tunes and decided within a matter of minutes that Becky committed suicide instead!

Then instead of pursuing a possible homicide, the police asserted fraudulently that Adam "passed the lie detector test", excused Adam from taking another polygraph even though the polygrapher said Adam's polygraph was "inconclusive", Nina was allowed to bypass taking a polygraph altogether, and neither Jonah nor Dina were printed or processed.

Only someone with a vested interest in not seeing justice done would deny that there was gross negligence and misconduct on the part of the police and Pfingst.

As a defense attorney to a POI Adam Shacknai, Pfingst knew he was overstepping his ethical boundaries when he went onto the crime scene. I am surprised he hasn't been charged with tampering with evidence and ethical and legal misconduct.

K_Z
12-15-2012, 01:29 PM
(Copying my post from the "suicide" thread, as it fits in this discussion.)

I don't think there is any way to "spin" Paul Pfingst's fairly immediate presence on the scene, as innocuous, expected, collaborative, friendly, helpful, or anything similar. And his presence can't be dismissed, either. It's highly significant.

He wasn't just "passing by" either. He was contacted rapidly, just a few hours after the body was discovered, from someone who knew exactly how to get almost immediate personal access to this former prosecutor in private practice. The person who called, IMO, was not flipping thru the yellow pages, or searching google for "find a lawyer." And the person who contacted Paul Pfingst was successful at persuading this high power attorney to literally drop what he was doing for the day, and get in the car to go to the scene. To represent "someone", who we now know was Adam. To "protect his rights", I'm sure.

Paul Pfingst's presence is a huge piece of evidence in how Rebecca's death investigation unfolded in the earliest hours-- imo, and the opinion of many others. It's not innuendo or speculation-- it is factual that he was contacted, he went there, he was photographed inside the crime tape with investigators (and in a "chummy" fashion), he was calling the police station unpublished numbers to intervene/ interfere with the questioning of AS-- who, from Ann Rule's descriptions, didn't even know he HAD an attorney, at that point. And if I'm not mistaken, AS was not even still at the mansion when PP showed up, so an excuse that he came to pick up his client can't even be used.

Attorneys who represent anyone connected with a suspicious death are not permitted to be part of a death investigation or crime scene processing, in any way. That is not their job. He wasn't just "at" the scene-- he was "inside" the scene. That is a clear conflict of interest. Period.

Paul Pfingst's presence and involvement is extremely significant. And he knew he shouldn't have been there, either. He's a former prosecutor, for pete's sake. He was using his recognition and influence, period, imo.

He was there even BEFORE the ME's office responded (lol, it's easier to get a defense attorney than a medical examiner), with the body still there, uncovered and displayed grotesquely to gawkers and news helicopters. He absolutely used his influence to get onto, and inside the scene of what was initially suspected by police to be a murder, and he CONTINUED to use the influence and knowledge from his previous position as DA by making calls into the interrogation rooms (unpublished numbers) at the jail to influence what was happening with Adam Shacknai.

I think this is a very strong argument for conflict of interest and impropriety in the investigation, and I hope the AG's office agrees at some point.

MyBelle
12-16-2012, 05:53 PM
This is another huge nagging thing. Why in the world would they not have re-tested him? Why in the world was NS allowed to make excuses and not do her scheduled test? Doesn't LE have to follow a certain protocol? Follow the leads until they end? If one detective, officer, Sargent decides something must be done, isn't it done?

Worse, is that it was glossed over, lied about. AS passed the test. Not true. MSM blaring this, and SDSO has nothing to say but to tell the Z family that they should cease and desist or they'll "open the file"?

Smacks of wrongdoing....and maybe a cover up.

Always, MOO

It only smacks of wrongdoing to those who believe there is a vast conspiracy of multiple law enforcement agencies all corruptly working together to cover-up a murder. That maybe happens in tv fiction.

Polygraphs are purely voluntary and there is an expense involved. The examiner found Adam to be credible. There was an added emotional element in that Max's condition was deteriorating. Emotions can impact the results of a poly. I think the priority of Max's family was to focus on Max.

JMO

inthedark14
12-16-2012, 06:21 PM
It only smacks of wrongdoing to those who believe there is a vast conspiracy of multiple law enforcement agencies all corruptly working together to cover-up a murder. That maybe happens in tv fiction.

Polygraphs are purely voluntary and there is an expense involved. The examiner found Adam to be credible. There was an added emotional element in that Max's condition was deteriorating. Emotions can impact the results of a poly. I think the priority of Max's family was to focus on Max.

JMO
<snipped>
On July 15, 2011, Adam Shacknai was given a lie detector test. Search warrants that were unsealed by a San Diego judge reveal, that: "Detective Lebitski and Detective Hillen facilitated a polygraph examination of Adam Shacknai with Polygrapher Paul Redden. Redden said based on the analysis of the polygraph charts he couldn't draw a conclusion, but felt Adam was being truthful during the examination."
However, Paul Redden tells RadarOnline.com exclusively: "The test results from the polygraph that I gave Adam Shacknai were inconclusive, therefore, I wasn't able to form an analysis from the results of the polygraph test. Adam did not necessarily pass or fail the test. Whenever I deal with an inconclusive result, I always recommend a follow-up test. I have never been asked to do a follow-up test for Adam Shacknai.
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/adam-shacknai-polygrapher-recommended-another-lie-detector-test

Even though the examiner felt he was being truthful he also stated that he always recommends a follow up test. Which was never given.

MyBelle
12-16-2012, 07:25 PM
<snipped>
On July 15, 2011, Adam Shacknai was given a lie detector test. Search warrants that were unsealed by a San Diego judge reveal, that: "Detective Lebitski and Detective Hillen facilitated a polygraph examination of Adam Shacknai with Polygrapher Paul Redden. Redden said based on the analysis of the polygraph charts he couldn't draw a conclusion, but felt Adam was being truthful during the examination."
However, Paul Redden tells RadarOnline.com exclusively: "The test results from the polygraph that I gave Adam Shacknai were inconclusive, therefore, I wasn't able to form an analysis from the results of the polygraph test. Adam did not necessarily pass or fail the test. Whenever I deal with an inconclusive result, I always recommend a follow-up test. I have never been asked to do a follow-up test for Adam Shacknai.
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/adam-shacknai-polygrapher-recommended-another-lie-detector-test

Even though the examiner felt he was being truthful he also stated that he always recommends a follow up test. Which was never given.

Radaronline thrives on innuendo. Nowhere have I seen LE say they asked Adam to repeat the poly and he declined. If the examiner thought he was being truthful, it's no surprise that LE decided not to go to the expense of repeating it.

JMO

inthedark14
12-16-2012, 09:17 PM
Radaronline thrives on innuendo. Nowhere have I seen LE say they asked Adam to repeat the poly and he declined. If the examiner thought he was being truthful, it's no surprise that LE decided not to go to the expense of repeating it.

JMO

So by your decision this MSM quote isn't good because you don't like the reporting? This is a legitimate MSM link where they SPOKE to the examiner. If you don't like it, that's cool, but it doesn't make it any less the truth.

Always MOO

MyBelle
12-17-2012, 02:04 AM
So by your decision this MSM quote isn't good because you don't like the reporting? This is a legitimate MSM link where they SPOKE to the examiner. If you don't like it, that's cool, but it doesn't make it any less the truth.

Always MOO

I didn't say it wasn't true, I said it doesn't say that LE asked Adam to take another poly. Adam can't take another poly if one isn't offered to him.


I don't believe I am alone in my dislike of innuendo being twisted into fact.

JMO

Mrs. Holmes
05-12-2013, 02:20 PM
I believe this should be brought to the top of the forum. Below is the link to the actual video of the Lie Detector Test of Adam Shacknai.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/22221589/news-8-exclusive-the-polygraph-exam-of-adam-shacknai

Mrs. Holmes
05-12-2013, 02:48 PM
I believe this should be brought to the top of the forum. Below is the link to the actual video of the Lie Detector Test of Adam Shacknai released by CBS on May 10th.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/22221589/news-8-exclusive-the-polygraph-exam-of-adam-shacknai

I noted that this is only roughly 5 minutes of tape. If you watch the time stamp it shows roughly 7:30Pm and then 8:40 PM so we are seeing a very small portion of this.

IzzyBlanche
05-12-2013, 03:47 PM
SDPD's handling of the case went beyond being just incompetent. It shows they tried their best to cover something up and make the whole case go away.

I don't mean to nitpick but I just want to point out that it was the San Diego Sheriff's Department, not SDPD. SDPD was not involved in the case.

I agree with the sentiment wholeheartedly though.

Mrs. Holmes
05-12-2013, 05:23 PM
Wow... watch carefully.... when AS answers NO.. he shakes his head yes....

then at the end... do you think she committed suicide.. he says YES and shakes his head no...

Wow....

Serpico
05-12-2013, 08:03 PM
All I will say about this is that I think it is REAL hinky that LE gave AS a pass on this inconclusive polygraph test. Especially considering he is the only one around that we know knows about mariners knots. No proof RZ did. And considering he was the only other person we knew to be around the place that night. Real hinky....

Well....we know there was also a Romano twin on the premises Tuesday night and until I read a witness stating she saw a female with either Romano twin description walking back to DS house on a clear summer night.....I'll just assume she stayed longer than she told police.

Serpico
05-12-2013, 08:10 PM
(Copying my post from the "suicide" thread, as it fits in this discussion.)

I don't think there is any way to "spin" Paul Pfingst's fairly immediate presence on the scene, as innocuous, expected, collaborative, friendly, helpful, or anything similar. And his presence can't be dismissed, either. It's highly significant.

He wasn't just "passing by" either. He was contacted rapidly, just a few hours after the body was discovered, from someone who knew exactly how to get almost immediate personal access to this former prosecutor in private practice. The person who called, IMO, was not flipping thru the yellow pages, or searching google for "find a lawyer." And the person who contacted Paul Pfingst was successful at persuading this high power attorney to literally drop what he was doing for the day, and get in the car to go to the scene. To represent "someone", who we now know was Adam. To "protect his rights", I'm sure.

Paul Pfingst's presence is a huge piece of evidence in how Rebecca's death investigation unfolded in the earliest hours-- imo, and the opinion of many others. It's not innuendo or speculation-- it is factual that he was contacted, he went there, he was photographed inside the crime tape with investigators (and in a "chummy" fashion), he was calling the police station unpublished numbers to intervene/ interfere with the questioning of AS-- who, from Ann Rule's descriptions, didn't even know he HAD an attorney, at that point. And if I'm not mistaken, AS was not even still at the mansion when PP showed up, so an excuse that he came to pick up his client can't even be used.

Attorneys who represent anyone connected with a suspicious death are not permitted to be part of a death investigation or crime scene processing, in any way. That is not their job. He wasn't just "at" the scene-- he was "inside" the scene. That is a clear conflict of interest. Period.

Paul Pfingst's presence and involvement is extremely significant. And he knew he shouldn't have been there, either. He's a former prosecutor, for pete's sake. He was using his recognition and influence, period, imo.

He was there even BEFORE the ME's office responded (lol, it's easier to get a defense attorney than a medical examiner), with the body still there, uncovered and displayed grotesquely to gawkers and news helicopters. He absolutely used his influence to get onto, and inside the scene of what was initially suspected by police to be a murder, and he CONTINUED to use the influence and knowledge from his previous position as DA by making calls into the interrogation rooms (unpublished numbers) at the jail to influence what was happening with Adam Shacknai.

I think this is a very strong argument for conflict of interest and impropriety in the investigation, and I hope the AG's office agrees at some point.

Don't forget that his former Assistant DA was now IN 2011 the Special Advisor/Consultant to the Sheriff's Office and was also the former SDSO Director of Forensic Services in charge of the SDSO Crime Lab and investigators....GREG THOMPSON.

Betty P
05-12-2013, 09:46 PM
Wow... watch carefully.... when AS answers NO.. he shakes his head yes....

then at the end... do you think she committed suicide.. he says YES and shakes his head no...

Wow....

When he 's describing how he ran into the house to get a knife to cut her down, he 's also shaking his head "no ". It will be interesting if we get to see the entire interview.

Serpico
05-13-2013, 09:57 AM
When he 's describing how he ran into the house to get a knife to cut her down, he 's also shaking his head "no ". It will be interesting if we get to see the entire interview.

Betty - I didn't pick up on that initially so I went back to look at it again. I did
read yesterday about a dozen "experts" discussing tips on lie detection and shaking one's head different than the answer he/she gives is a "lie tell."

MaybeNotToday
05-13-2013, 10:57 AM
I have made a mental note to NEVER take a lie detector test. When you do something in good faith, this is how you are treated?

bourne
05-13-2013, 11:17 AM
Adam said in the polygraph exam, "She couldn't live with it."

Are these the exact same words used by Nina in her audio interview with CBS8?

Zinn
05-13-2013, 11:27 AM
I'm hoping someone can refresh my memory on a couple things.

The person administering the LDT clearly states the results are in the "inconclusive" range. He also says he's not really worried about it. But I think I recall reading there was a recommendation for a second LDT that was ignored. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm hoping someone can remind me.

Also, I recall Gore reported AS passed the LDT "with flying colors." I don't recall when he said this, however. Did he state this publicly, or was this something he said privately to the Zahau family?

TIA.

*Lash*
05-13-2013, 11:53 AM
CBS8 video of AS polygraph - extended full 5 mins.

http://kfmb.videodownload.worldnow.com/KFMB_20130511015525187AA.mp4

time
05-13-2013, 11:58 AM
Do we know when AS was given the lie detector test?

*Lash*
05-13-2013, 12:00 PM
Adam said in the polygraph exam, "She couldn't live with it."

Are these the exact same words used by Nina in her audio interview with CBS8?

From Nina's interview -

REPORTER: There's no doubt in your mind or in Dina's mind that Rebecca committed suicide?

NINA: Oh I think she committed suicide for sure. Oh yeah. I think she was guilty. I think she felt guilty. I think that -- my experience, I'm only speaking for myself -- but I think from my experience, she knew more than what she disclosed.

http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kfmb/misc/nina_romano.mp3

Betty P
05-13-2013, 12:05 PM
I'm hoping someone can refresh my memory on a couple things.

The person administering the LDT clearly states the results are in the "inconclusive" range. He also says he's not really worried about it. But I think I recall reading there was a recommendation for a second LDT that was ignored. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm hoping someone can remind me.

Also, I recall Gore reported AS passed the LDT "with flying colors." I don't recall when he said this, however. Did he state this publicly, or was this something he said privately to the Zahau family?

TIA.

Renowned Polygrapher: Jonah Shacknai’s Brother Needs To Take Another Lie Detector Test

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/renowned-polygrapher-jonah-shacknais-brother-needs-take-another-lie-detector-test/



On July 15, 2011, Adam Shacknai was given a lie detector test. Search warrants that were unsealed by a San Diego judge reveal, that “Detective Lebitski and Detective Hillen facilitated a polygraph examination of Adam Shacknai with Polygrapher Paul Redden. Redden said based on the analysis of the polygraph charts he couldn’t draw a conclusion, but felt Adam was being truthful during the examination.”

BBM

*Lash*
05-13-2013, 12:13 PM
Where did AS get the knife? From a drawer as stated in the Ann's book or from a butcher block as stated during Adam's polygraph examination?

Snip-

AS: I think.. I got to reach her and realized I wasn't going to be able to get her off without a knife. You know I tried -- I realized -- quite quickly. You know I realized this thing will happen like this. I went around the back into the house which the door was open. I got a knife with the butcher block thing -- came back out -- cut her down -- and tried called 9-1-1 shortly thereafter -- if not before.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/22221589/news-8-exclusive-the-polygraph-exam-of-adam-shacknai?clienttype=generic


Snip -

“The Memphis tugboat captain said he was crossing the square of grass below the balcony of Becky’s bedroom/office when he saw her hanging there. Luckily, he had been able to find the right drawer in the large kitchen where knives were kept, and he grabbed one and raced back to cut her down.”

Excerpt From: Rule, Ann. “Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors.” This material may be protected by copyright.

*Lash*
05-13-2013, 12:16 PM
Do we know when AS was given the lie detector test?

“Redden began the test at 6:40 and continued for two hours. At first he asked only innocuous general questions. He noted his subject’s response to deliberate “lie questions.”

Excerpt From: Rule, Ann. “Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors.” This material may be protected by copyright.

Carioca
05-13-2013, 12:28 PM
Oops, posted this on wrong thread, so have moved it here... Apologies.
Not easy to discern certain AS' words at times. His thoughts often jump nonsensically. All corrections welcome:

News 8 Exclusive - The polygraph examination of Adam Shacknai
http://www.cbs8.com/story/22221589/n...nttype=generic

Date: 7/13/2011
Time video begins: 7:33:17PM

AS: I think.. I got to reach her and realized I wasn't going to be able to get her off without a knife. You know I tried -- I realized -- quite quickly. You know I realized this thing will happen like this. I went around the back into the house which the door was open. I got a knife with the butcher block thing -- came back out -- cut her down -- and tried called 9-1-1 shortly thereafter -- if not before.

PR: OK. Did you at any point think she was alive?

AS: I'm well.. you know. Call me a can-do person or something -- but -- probably not. But I thought, how would I answer -- for this if I didn't try something. I'm a responsible person.

PR: OK. Tried some CPR?

AS: Yeah

PR: OK. Have you been trained in that? With the boat stuff?

AS: Years and years ago. Not enough to amount to anything.

PR: OK. So, tried some CPR. Now -- and so -- was there anything else unusual? What kind of chain (unintelligible?) was it, like a bed sheet or what?

AS: It was a ******ing rope, man. Red rope. Unless my memory is failing me, you know, something -- it wasn't just something that you would be laying around, somewhere. I wouldn't think.

PR: Alright. So could you tell whether it was a material or something?

AS: Kinda like a Kevlar, synthetic

PR: OK. Like nylon...

AS: Yeah

PR: Or something like that?

PR: OK, and -- so what, there were no shoes, not a stitch on?

AS: Not that I recall

PR: So her hands were hanging down by her side then?

AS: I don't know because here's the thing. I don't remember about her hands. Because after I cut her down I went to take her pulse -- you know -- at some point, which I didn't even do at first. I remember having to get something out of the way -- of her hands -- and that's why I've been asking these detectives and stuff if she was tied up or what. I mean I'm like, I'm kind of in all a blur [cross talk]...

PR: Blur yeah.

AS: You know but -- but I remember having to move something to try to get her pulse out of the way -- you know very much [cross talk]

PR: You don't remember anything unusual?

AS: I don't remember that, but I just -- I fear -- I hope to God she wasn't tied up but -- and again -- I asked the detectives there -- you know -- I don't recall.

PR: Now as far as the CPR. You did the chest compressions and you did blow in her mouth, in her nose?

AS: I got the -- once I got 9-1-1 on the line, I went ahead and blew in her mouth.

PR: OK. And her mouth was open and clear and everything?

AS: I didn't even do all that at first. I should have. I didn't. I didn't do that tilt. I think they said tilt the head back and do that. I didn't do any of that stuff.

PR: OK

AS: I just put my mouth over hers and said **** it, it's my brother's girlfriend and I'll do it. And I did it.

PR: And there was no tape across her mouth or anything like this?

AS: No. There was a ******ing gag in her mouth though.

PR: A gag in her mouth?

AS: Yeah

PR: What was that?

AS: Something, yeah. I had to pull something out of her ****ing mouth. It was like a blue scarf.

[time stamp jumps from 7:36:54PM to 7:40:29PM]

PR: Does it seem to you like it's a suicide then at that point?

AS: YES ABSOLUTELY [AS sits forward in chair, then leans back]

PR: OK, and what makes you think that?

AS: It's just what crossed my mind you know -- just because -- I thought she was THERE, when Max got hurt,supposedly. UM UM -- you know maybe she just can't LIVE with it, you know. I've never been in that situation. I'm not going to -- I can't say that I could, especially if it was someone else's kid, you know.

PR: Did she seem suicidal or anything like that?

AS: No. I don't get -- you know, I mean -- you just don't ever think of that.

[time stamp jumps from 7:40:29PM to 8:11:49PM]

PR: Look straight ahead listen and concentrate on each question.

AS: OK

PR: Only respond yes or no

AS: OK

PR: But the most important thing of all is what?

AS: Be honest?

PR: That's it. Be honest, don't lie, be honest in your answers [unintelligible]

PR: Regarding the death of Rebecca, do you know for sure if anyone did anything to hurt her that resulted in her death?

AS: No

PR: Regarding the death of Rebecca, did you yourself do anything to her that resulted in her death?

AS: No

PR: Regarding the death of Rebecca, were you in that guest room that she was found hanging from at any time during the night?

AS: No

[time stamp jumps from 8:22:47PM to 8:40:19PM]

PR: These are hard tests to do when you're this close to what's going on here like you said...

AS: Yeah

PR: Because it's hard to get rid of that emotional factor

AS: Right

PR: Um, and you could have done a whole lot worse on the test (AS shakes head). And you could have done a whole lot better too.

AS: (makes a psshoo sound - snaps finger)

PR: Based on what I've got here -- we're kind of in the inconclusive range. But it clearly doesn't bother me that much, because I think that if you were (unintelligible) that close, there is no way I could prevent you from giving me SOME reaction. But as far as being involved in it, I am not INCLINED to believe that. Um, but you're definitely not flunking my test, so that's kinda -- somewhat of a good thing.

[Time stamp jumps from 8:41:44PM to 8:44:44PM]

PR: Appreciate your cooperation. I know it's a tough thing to do and certainly appreciate you working with us on this. Wasn't so bad, was it?

AS: It was.

PR: It wasn't as bad as you thought it was going to be though?

AS: It was.

PR: It was?

AS: Yeah.

[Time stamp ends 8:44:56PM]

-----------------------------

There were 10 questions. The video only includes 3 of them. Within the first 12 hours Rebecca's death was being investigated as a homicide. AS discovered her body, thus any investigation would consider him a POI. Why is Mr Redden so darn appreciative and accommodating to AS?! Will comment more on this under separate comment.

ETA: http://www.cbs8.com/story/22221589/news-8-exclusive-the-polygraph-exam-of-adam-shacknai

*Lash*
05-13-2013, 12:31 PM
Thank you Carioca!

:yourock:

Carioca
05-13-2013, 12:35 PM
Betty - I didn't pick up on that initially so I went back to look at it again. I did
read yesterday about a dozen "experts" discussing tips on lie detection and shaking one's head different than the answer he/she gives is a "lie tell."
And note AS never says Rebecca's name. He says Max's, but not the victim's, even though Mr Redden includes Rebecca's name in his questions. This is often a red flag: distancing from the victim. I am not accusing AS; this is just an observation in this case.

Interesting article on reading body language when taking a LDT:
http://suite101.com/article/how-to-read-body-language-and-become-a-lie-detector-a348664#.UY-c4UYS-vw.email

*Lash*
05-13-2013, 12:40 PM
And note AS never says Rebecca's name. He says Max's, but not the victim's, even though Mr Redden includes Rebecca's name in his questions. This is often a red flag: distancing from the victim. I am not accusing AS; this is just an observation in this case.

Interesting article on reading body language when taking a LDT:
http://suite101.com/article/how-to-read-body-language-and-become-a-lie-detector-a348664#.UY-c4UYS-vw.email

Kind of like when Adam told the 911 operator I got a girl hung herself.

ADAM SHACKNAI: Yeah, I got a girl hung herself in the guest house of ah... it's on Ocean Blvd. across from the hotel; the same place that you came and got the kid yesterday.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/16150816/911-call-released-in-hanging-death-at-coronados-spreckels-mansion

time
05-13-2013, 12:48 PM
Where did AS get the knife? From a drawer as stated in the Ann's book or from a butcher block as stated during Adam's polygraph examination?

Snip-

AS: I think.. I got to reach her and realized I wasn't going to be able to get her off without a knife. You know I tried -- I realized -- quite quickly. You know I realized this thing will happen like this. I went around the back into the house which the door was open. I got a knife with the butcher block thing -- came back out -- cut her down -- and tried called 9-1-1 shortly thereafter -- if not before.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/22221589/news-8-exclusive-the-polygraph-exam-of-adam-shacknai?clienttype=generic


Snip -

“The Memphis tugboat captain said he was crossing the square of grass below the balcony of Becky’s bedroom/office when he saw her hanging there. Luckily, he had been able to find the right drawer in the large kitchen where knives were kept, and he grabbed one and raced back to cut her down.”

Excerpt From: Rule, Ann. “Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors.” This material may be protected by copyright.


PURPLE BBM - Sorry if I am somehow having a dumb moment, I just can't make sense of this. I thought there was a kitchen entry into the courtyard? When AS says he went around to the back... where is the back?

Serpico
05-13-2013, 01:30 PM
PURPLE BBM - Sorry if I am somehow having a dumb moment, I just can't make sense of this. I thought there was a kitchen entry into the courtyard? When AS says he went around to the back... where is the back?

Hey Time -

A few answers to this and previous question. Previous question - Adam began his polygraph at 6:40 pm Wed. evening and lasted 2 hours. Paul Redden gave Adam Shacknai FOUR polygraphs tests. Source :Ann Rule's book - page 184.

Where is back? The Shacknai family always KNEW over the years the backdoor was unlocked. Dina knew it,Nina knew it and Adam who said he's visited there 4-5 times knew it. However, Tuesday night was the first time Rebecca was ALONE in that big main house with the Romano sister's lurking about...kinda wonder if Rebecca didn't LOCK that backdoor and the backdoor was UNLOCKED by a key.....Jonah's "key" that he had with his car keys that he lent to one of the Romano girls Tuesday night at Rady Hospital at 9;00 pm. This just another reason why we need to hear/read from ADT Security about the service contract/policy at 1043 Ocean Blvd. Sheriff Gore at his sham Sept. 2,2011 Press Conference when asked replied tersely by saying,' it (security system) wasn't on/working properly" next question. That has been the ONLY official word about ADT Security except that from 2008-2011 there were 8 police responses to 1043 Ocean Blvd. when the alarm was tripped so it wasn't working well enough back then.

Carioca
05-13-2013, 02:05 PM
Adam said in the polygraph exam, "She couldn't live with it."

Are these the exact same words used by Nina in her audio interview with CBS8?

NINA:
No, no, my thinking was she did know more than what she said and more than she admitted to -- that was my initial reaction was oh my gosh -- like what did she do -- what on earth did she do that she couldn’t live with -- that was my initial reaction.

ADAM:
AS: It's just what crossed my mind you know -- just because -- I thought she was THERE, when Max got hurt, supposedly. UM UM -- you know maybe she just can't LIVE with it, you know. I've never been in that situation. I'm not going to -- I can't say that I could, especially if it was someone else's kid, you know.

time
05-13-2013, 02:37 PM
Hey Time -

A few answers to this and previous question. Previous question - Adam began his polygraph at 6:40 pm Wed. evening and lasted 2 hours. Paul Redden gave Adam Shacknai FOUR polygraphs tests. Source :Ann Rule's book - page 184.

Thank you! What I'm trying to figure out is how much opportunity he had to talk with others before that poly and how that may effect the goofy answers we hear from him. IDK. I wonder who he was in contact with between the time he called 911 and over 12 hours later.


Where is back? The Shacknai family always KNEW over the years the backdoor was unlocked. Dina knew it,Nina knew it and Adam who said he's visited there 4-5 times knew it. However, Tuesday night was the first time Rebecca was ALONE in that big main house with the Romano sister's lurking about...kinda wonder if Rebecca didn't LOCK that backdoor and the backdoor was UNLOCKED by a key.....Jonah's "key" that he had with his car keys that he lent to one of the Romano girls Tuesday night at Rady Hospital at 9;00 pm. This just another reason why we need to hear/read from ADT Security about the service contract/policy at 1043 Ocean Blvd. Sheriff Gore at his sham Sept. 2,2011 Press Conference when asked replied tersely by saying,' it (security system) wasn't on/working properly" next question. That has been the ONLY official word about ADT Security except that from 2008-2011 there were 8 police responses to 1043 Ocean Blvd. when the alarm was tripped so it wasn't working well enough back then.I still don't know where the back or back door is. Seems to me it would either be the courtyard or a door facing towards the back right below the balcony room - I have unsuccessfully searched for floor plans. There is some door near the kitchen coming out into the courtyard.

Good points on the security and why nothing informative about it instead of just a vague statement.

I believe Nina and Dina knew exactly where to get in if a door was left unlocked, but even so they quite possibly could have had house keys on those keys from Jonahs car or I can see that Jonah may have never changed the locks and Dina still had an old key.

Carioca
05-13-2013, 02:41 PM
PURPLE BBM - Sorry if I am somehow having a dumb moment, I just can't make sense of this. I thought there was a kitchen entry into the courtyard? When AS says he went around to the back... where is the back?
There was no kitchen entry directly from the courtyard. It was necessary to go through the gate to the right under the balcony, then sharp left to reach the door to the kitchen. (Or go through door to the left at end of walkway under the balcony that led into the main house, take a sharp right to the butler's pantry, then into the kitchen.)

After the renovation, there is now a door from the kitchen directly onto the courtyard.

time
05-13-2013, 03:05 PM
There was no kitchen entry directly from the courtyard. It was necessary to go through the gate to the right under the balcony, then sharp left to reach the door to the kitchen. (Or go through door to the left at end of walkway under the balcony that led into the main house, take a sharp right to the butler's pantry, then into the kitchen.)

After the renovation, there is now a door from the kitchen directly onto the courtyard.

So the door in this picture is not directly connected or close to the kitchen?

bourne
05-13-2013, 03:36 PM
NINA:
No, no, my thinking was she did know more than what she said and more than she admitted to -- that was my initial reaction was oh my gosh -- like what did she do -- what on earth did she do that she couldn’t live with -- that was my initial reaction.

ADAM:
AS: It's just what crossed my mind you know -- just because -- I thought she was THERE, when Max got hurt, supposedly. UM UM -- you know maybe she just can't LIVE with it, you know. I've never been in that situation. I'm not going to -- I can't say that I could, especially if it was someone else's kid, you know.

Wow, the phrasing is almost identical! Can this be a coincidence? Hmm...

I had a friend in college who committed suicide. I know "couldn't live with it" was not a phrase I and my friends' family and friends used to describe him when asked why we thought he might have killed himself.

I remember I was in shock and numb, and was in denial for a few days. What I and his family did do was ask questions like "Why would he do that...", "I don't know why...", "I don't understand why he didn't confide in us...", "what was happening in his life...", "did someone say or do something to him...", "Who was the last one to see/talk to him..." All QUESTIONS. Not one of us presumed he couldn't live with himself, and like Rebecca, my friend had been going through a crisis too at that time.

Again, we asked questions. NOT ONCE did we say "he couldn't live with it."

Very very odd that BOTH Nina and Adam stated that Rebecca "couldn't live with it..." It's like they were projecting their own frames of mind onto Rebecca. But how strange if they didn't confide in each other beforehand that both would have independently come up with similar thoughts that when a nonbiological child that belongs to a friend/partner is injured and in a hospital (and had not perished), a woman would immediately feel such guilt as to decide to take her own life over the child's injury. I find that absurd illogical thinking.

Serpico
05-13-2013, 05:59 PM
NINA:
No, no, my thinking was she did know more than what she said and more than she admitted to -- that was my initial reaction was oh my gosh -- like what did she do -- what on earth did she do that she couldn’t live with -- that was my initial reaction.

ADAM:
AS: It's just what crossed my mind you know -- just because -- I thought she was THERE, when Max got hurt, supposedly. UM UM -- you know maybe she just can't LIVE with it, you know. I've never been in that situation. I'm not going to -- I can't say that I could, especially if it was someone else's kid, you know.

Excellent. I have now looked at Adam's 5 minute video about 20 times and it seems I pick up something each time. I know this wasn't the entire polygraph video but when Adam explains right at the beginning his exhaustive efforts to remove the noose around RZ's neck which forced him to run to the main house for a knife. TWO things stand out.
1- why didn't he simply remove the GAG out of her mouth then rather than about 5 minutes later AFTER he cut her down? Red Flag story to me.
2- why doesn't Adam ever mention that after grabbing the 3 legged table top to stand on to cut RZ down the difficulty of keeping the table steady without falling down. Geez ...after he cut her down there is at least 270 lbs of combined weight on top of that 3 legged table top.Red Flag Alert....Adam mentions bringing up porn on his iPhone out of the clear blue yet fails to mention THE crucial moment of the morning....cutting RZ down and never mentions how difficult it was with a 3 legged table top.Hmmm.... kinda makes you wonder if RZ was ever cut down rather placed on the lawn from the get go.

Carioca
05-13-2013, 07:05 PM
So the door in this picture is not directly connected or close to the kitchen?
Here you go, Time: the floor plan for the main house and guest house.
Red arrows show the route from courtyard to the kitchen through the main house. So yes, that door in picture directly left of big kitchen window leads to the kitchen, but not directly...
Purple arrows show the route to the kitchen through the gate and back door, the one AS allegedly took.
Note location of guesthouse kitchen, bedrooms and living room.

http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o614/mackpro/spreckels_floorplan_zps43d2ec56.jpg

time
05-13-2013, 08:22 PM
Here you go, Time: the floor plan for the main house and guest house.
Red arrows show the route from courtyard to the kitchen through the main house. So yes, that door in picture directly left of big kitchen window leads to the kitchen, but not directly...
Purple arrows show the route to the kitchen through the gate and back door, the one AS allegedly took.
Note location of guesthouse kitchen, bedrooms and living room.



Thank you so much, now I understand! I looked all over and couldn't find those so this is much appreciated.

I am so laughing at the gate label :)

Not sure if the guesthouse kitchen would be any closer, but AS must have known the back door was unlocked, huh?

Honestly I find it very odd that Rebecca was even in that balcony room... are there stairs leading up there directly? Why would Nina even go to the back. Oh, yeah to see if Rebecca's car was in the garage. I wouldn't do that at my sister's ex husband's house to hunt down his girlfriend/partner. I find it creepy that she even owns up to taking that liberty at someone elses house.

You're super!!!

inthedark14
05-13-2013, 09:04 PM
So, has anyone found out anything about Mr. P. calling 911? Has anyone seen anything about this?

Serpico
05-13-2013, 10:09 PM
Thank you so much, now I understand! I looked all over and couldn't find those so this is much appreciated.

I am so laughing at the gate label :)

Not sure if the guesthouse kitchen would be any closer, but AS must have known the back door was unlocked, huh?

Honestly I find it very odd that Rebecca was even in that balcony room... are there stairs leading up there directly? Why would Nina even go to the back. Oh, yeah to see if Rebecca's car was in the garage. I wouldn't do that at my sister's ex husband's house to hunt down his girlfriend/partner. I find it creepy that she even owns up to taking that liberty at someone elses house.

You're super!!!

Wasn't the car RZ used to pick up Adam in the DRIVEWAY Tuesday night?

time
05-13-2013, 10:18 PM
Wasn't the car RZ used to pick up Adam in the DRIVEWAY Tuesday night?

You are right! Thanks for correcting me.

"Romano then walked around the driveway side of the house and noticed Zahau's vehicle in the driveway."

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15982091/exclusive-max-shacknais-aunt-talks-about-coronado-mansion-deaths

I guess she walked to the gate then because she claimed she saw the light on.


"There's a gate that goes to the backyard. I didn't touch the gate. I didn't try to open the gate in any way. I just kind of tried to look through," Romano said.

Romano noticed a light on in an upstairs bedroom; the same room where detectives believe Zahau bound and gagged herself while naked, tied a rope around her own neck and jumped to her death off the balcony.

"That overhead light was on. So that was the only light that I saw in the house. The kitchen was dark, everything was dark. So I thought, that's kind of strange because her car's here; that light's on, that's weird. So then I just thought, ‘Maybe she just doesn't want to talk to me,'" according to Romano. "So, I turned around and I left right away and I walked back to my sister's house, got ready for bed and went to sleep."

iSleuth
05-14-2013, 01:25 PM
Here you go, Time: the floor plan for the main house and guest house.
Red arrows show the route from courtyard to the kitchen through the main house. So yes, that door in picture directly left of big kitchen window leads to the kitchen, but not directly...
Purple arrows show the route to the kitchen through the gate and back door, the one AS allegedly took.
Note location of guesthouse kitchen, bedrooms and living room.

http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o614/mackpro/spreckels_floorplan_zps43d2ec56.jpg

Love that arrow pointing to the gate
"Didn't touch" TYTY:floorlaugh:

iSleuth
05-14-2013, 01:27 PM
Excellent. I have now looked at Adam's 5 minute video about 20 times and it seems I pick up something each time. I know this wasn't the entire polygraph video but when Adam explains right at the beginning his exhaustive efforts to remove the noose around RZ's neck which forced him to run to the main house for a knife. TWO things stand out.
1- why didn't he simply remove the GAG out of her mouth then rather than about 5 minutes later AFTER he cut her down? Red Flag story to me.
2- why doesn't Adam ever mention that after grabbing the 3 legged table top to stand on to cut RZ down the difficulty of keeping the table steady without falling down. Geez ...after he cut her down there is at least 270 lbs of combined weight on top of that 3 legged table top.Red Flag Alert....Adam mentions bringing up porn on his iPhone out of the clear blue yet fails to mention THE crucial moment of the morning....cutting RZ down and never mentions how difficult it was with a 3 legged table top.Hmmm.... kinda makes you wonder if RZ was ever cut down rather placed on the lawn from the get go.

maybe it was "fog"
I am so glad that there is something happening in this case.

love and hugs to everyone in this thread and welcome to all newcomers!

bourne
05-14-2013, 01:31 PM
You are right! Thanks for correcting me.

"Romano then walked around the driveway side of the house and noticed Zahau's vehicle in the driveway."

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15982091/exclusive-max-shacknais-aunt-talks-about-coronado-mansion-deaths

I guess she walked to the gate then because she claimed she saw the light on.

But can we trust Nina's statements? And if we do, wasn't Zahau's vehicle then stated by police in a report that it was found in the garage the next day (Wed) after her death? If so, one has to wonder WHO MOVED Zahau's car in the middle of the night AND WHY?

time
05-14-2013, 02:10 PM
But can we trust Nina's statements? And if we do, wasn't Zahau's vehicle then stated by police in a report that it was found in the garage the next day (Wed) after her death? If so, one has to wonder WHO MOVED Zahau's car in the middle of the night AND WHY?

I'll have to dig. I'm wondering if I thought it could have been in the garage because of driveway pictures taken at the crime scene on Wed? Seems we talked about how did the other car (SUV?) get there.

Serpico
05-14-2013, 02:32 PM
But can we trust Nina's statements? And if we do, wasn't Zahau's vehicle then stated by police in a report that it was found in the garage the next day (Wed) after her death? If so, one has to wonder WHO MOVED Zahau's car in the middle of the night AND WHY?

My recollection.....SDSO detectives peeked in the garage windows and took down a license number of a car with AZ plates parked inside. However, I think
the license plate number was wrong and I thought there were 3 cars. Jonah's,Rebecca's and the car in the garage. I'll go back research unless someone has answers.

time
05-14-2013, 02:37 PM
My recollection.....SDSO detectives peeked in the garage windows and took down a license number of a car with AZ plates parked inside. However, I think
the license plate number was wrong and I thought there were 3 cars. Jonah's,Rebecca's and the car in the garage. I'll go back research unless someone has answers.

See if the thread I just bumped helps any.

Serpico
05-15-2013, 12:48 PM
Oops, posted this on wrong thread, so have moved it here... Apologies.
Not easy to discern certain AS' words at times. His thoughts often jump nonsensically. All corrections welcome:

News 8 Exclusive - The polygraph examination of Adam Shacknai
http://www.cbs8.com/story/22221589/n...nttype=generic

Date: 7/13/2011
Time video begins: 7:33:17PM

AS: I think.. I got to reach her and realized I wasn't going to be able to get her off without a knife. You know I tried -- I realized -- quite quickly. You know I realized this thing will happen like this. I went around the back into the house which the door was open. I got a knife with the butcher block thing -- came back out -- cut her down -- and tried called 9-1-1 shortly thereafter -- if not before.

PR: OK. Did you at any point think she was alive?

AS: I'm well.. you know. Call me a can-do person or something -- but -- probably not. But I thought, how would I answer -- for this if I didn't try something. I'm a responsible person.

PR: OK. Tried some CPR?

AS: Yeah

PR: OK. Have you been trained in that? With the boat stuff?

AS: Years and years ago. Not enough to amount to anything.

PR: OK. So, tried some CPR. Now -- and so -- was there anything else unusual? What kind of chain (unintelligible?) was it, like a bed sheet or what?

AS: It was a ******ing rope, man. Red rope. Unless my memory is failing me, you know, something -- it wasn't just something that you would be laying around, somewhere. I wouldn't think.

PR: Alright. So could you tell whether it was a material or something?

AS: Kinda like a Kevlar, synthetic

PR: OK. Like nylon...

AS: Yeah

PR: Or something like that?

PR: OK, and -- so what, there were no shoes, not a stitch on?

AS: Not that I recall

PR: So her hands were hanging down by her side then?

AS: I don't know because here's the thing. I don't remember about her hands. Because after I cut her down I went to take her pulse -- you know -- at some point, which I didn't even do at first. I remember having to get something out of the way -- of her hands -- and that's why I've been asking these detectives and stuff if she was tied up or what. I mean I'm like, I'm kind of in all a blur [cross talk]...

PR: Blur yeah.

AS: You know but -- but I remember having to move something to try to get her pulse out of the way -- you know very much [cross talk]

PR: You don't remember anything unusual?

AS: I don't remember that, but I just -- I fear -- I hope to God she wasn't tied up but -- and again -- I asked the detectives there -- you know -- I don't recall.

PR: Now as far as the CPR. You did the chest compressions and you did blow in her mouth, in her nose?

AS: I got the -- once I got 9-1-1 on the line, I went ahead and blew in her mouth.

PR: OK. And her mouth was open and clear and everything?

AS: I didn't even do all that at first. I should have. I didn't. I didn't do that tilt. I think they said tilt the head back and do that. I didn't do any of that stuff.

PR: OK

AS: I just put my mouth over hers and said **** it, it's my brother's girlfriend and I'll do it. And I did it.

PR: And there was no tape across her mouth or anything like this?

AS: No. There was a ******ing gag in her mouth though.

PR: A gag in her mouth?

AS: Yeah

PR: What was that?

AS: Something, yeah. I had to pull something out of her ****ing mouth. It was like a blue scarf.

[time stamp jumps from 7:36:54PM to 7:40:29PM]

PR: Does it seem to you like it's a suicide then at that point?

AS: YES ABSOLUTELY [AS sits forward in chair, then leans back]

PR: OK, and what makes you think that?

AS: It's just what crossed my mind you know -- just because -- I thought she was THERE, when Max got hurt,supposedly. UM UM -- you know maybe she just can't LIVE with it, you know. I've never been in that situation. I'm not going to -- I can't say that I could, especially if it was someone else's kid, you know.

PR: Did she seem suicidal or anything like that?

AS: No. I don't get -- you know, I mean -- you just don't ever think of that.

[time stamp jumps from 7:40:29PM to 8:11:49PM]

PR: Look straight ahead listen and concentrate on each question.

AS: OK

PR: Only respond yes or no

AS: OK

PR: But the most important thing of all is what?

AS: Be honest?

PR: That's it. Be honest, don't lie, be honest in your answers [unintelligible]

PR: Regarding the death of Rebecca, do you know for sure if anyone did anything to hurt her that resulted in her death?

AS: No

PR: Regarding the death of Rebecca, did you yourself do anything to her that resulted in her death?

AS: No

PR: Regarding the death of Rebecca, were you in that guest room that she was found hanging from at any time during the night?

AS: No

[time stamp jumps from 8:22:47PM to 8:40:19PM]

PR: These are hard tests to do when you're this close to what's going on here like you said...

AS: Yeah

PR: Because it's hard to get rid of that emotional factor

AS: Right

PR: Um, and you could have done a whole lot worse on the test (AS shakes head). And you could have done a whole lot better too.

AS: (makes a psshoo sound - snaps finger)

PR: Based on what I've got here -- we're kind of in the inconclusive range. But it clearly doesn't bother me that much, because I think that if you were (unintelligible) that close, there is no way I could prevent you from giving me SOME reaction. But as far as being involved in it, I am not INCLINED to believe that. Um, but you're definitely not flunking my test, so that's kinda -- somewhat of a good thing.

[Time stamp jumps from 8:41:44PM to 8:44:44PM]

PR: Appreciate your cooperation. I know it's a tough thing to do and certainly appreciate you working with us on this. Wasn't so bad, was it?

AS: It was.

PR: It wasn't as bad as you thought it was going to be though?

AS: It was.

PR: It was?

AS: Yeah.

[Time stamp ends 8:44:56PM]

-----------------------------

There were 10 questions. The video only includes 3 of them. Within the first 12 hours Rebecca's death was being investigated as a homicide. AS discovered her body, thus any investigation would consider him a POI. Why is Mr Redden so darn appreciative and accommodating to AS?! Will comment more on this under separate comment.

My understanding there were 10 questions but asked FOUR different times during the 2 hour polygraph.Ann Rule book page 184.Paul Redden gave Adam Shacknai four polygraph tests.

I have trouble with Adam's statement....."I FEAR.....I hope to god she wasn't tied up".....I know I've mentioned this before but I want to PRESS this statement.

*Adam previously indicated he spent time trying to get the noose around her neck which lead to his decision to run into the main house to grab a knife.
*Adam now has the knife and moves the 3 legged table top in position to get on top to cut the rope and get Rebecca down. Adam never mentions the difficulty or ease in cutting the robe nor does he ever mention the difficulty standing atop the 3 legged table top trying to maintain his balance as he would have to hold RZ's body as he cut the rope... right? No easy fete.
*Adam at this stage of the ordeal has seen Rebecca from a short distance,close up and is now holding her up as he cuts the rope and Adam says," I FEAR...I hope to god she wasn't tied up." Where were HIS arm(s) when he was holding her up not to notice she was tied up?
*Adam in the 5 minute video doesn't discuss the extreme difficulty it must've been with at least 270 combined lbs. atop the 3 legged table top using one arm or both arms to secure her body once he freed her neck from the rope and how he was able to maintain his balance without falling to the ground.
*Adam now has her body on the grass and he's trying to get her pulse and mentions something about her hands so I'm assuming he is trying to take her pulse from her WRIST...right? Well, weren't her hands TIED BEHIND HER BACK? How can Adam have any doubts whatsoever that Rebecca was tied up.....that statement is all RED FLAG IMO.

bourne
05-15-2013, 06:25 PM
My understanding there were 10 questions but asked FOUR different times during the 2 hour polygraph.Ann Rule book page 184.Paul Redden gave Adam Shacknai four polygraph tests.

I have trouble with Adam's statement....."I FEAR.....I hope to god she wasn't tied up".....I know I've mentioned this before but I want to PRESS this statement.

*Adam previously indicated he spent time trying to get the noose around her neck which lead to his decision to run into the main house to grab a knife.
*Adam now has the knife and moves the 3 legged table top in position to get on top to cut the rope and get Rebecca down. Adam never mentions the difficulty or ease in cutting the robe nor does he ever mention the difficulty standing atop the 3 legged table top trying to maintain his balance as he would have to hold RZ's body as he cut the rope... right? No easy fete.
*Adam at this stage of the ordeal has seen Rebecca from a short distance,close up and is now holding her up as he cuts the rope and Adam says," I FEAR...I hope to god she wasn't tied up." Where were HIS arm(s) when he was holding her up not to notice she was tied up?
*Adam in the 5 minute video doesn't discuss the extreme difficulty it must've been with at least 270 combined lbs. atop the 3 legged table top using one arm or both arms to secure her body once he freed her neck from the rope and how he was able to maintain his balance without falling to the ground.
*Adam now has her body on the grass and he's trying to get her pulse and mentions something about her hands so I'm assuming he is trying to take her pulse from her WRIST...right? Well, weren't her hands TIED BEHIND HER BACK? How can Adam have any doubts whatsoever that Rebecca was tied up.....that statement is all RED FLAG IMO.

I actually am still on the fence about Adam. I'm generally very good at reading people but it's hard to get a read on Adam because: <modsnip> and c) can't see his eyes in the polygraph exam and his eyeglasses/sunglasses were very dark-tinted.

I agree with other posters that his nonverbal behaviors contradict his statements (e.g., shaking head while saying "yes", and nodding while saying "no"). But I think this could be because he's either truly frustrated or he's trying real hard to appear exasperated and frustrated by the questioning.

In one instance, to me, it appeared there may have been a third party in the room, as when polygrapher Redden is asking Adam a question, Adam appears to be looking elsewhere at someone else...Is it possible that a lawyer or someone else was present in the polygraph exam besides Adam and Redden?

I also agree that it seems RIDICULOUS on its face when Adam asserted he didn't know whether her hands were tied up or not. He had at least an hour with her at the crime scene, I'd assume given that LE/paramedics didn't show up for quite a while since he was unable to give the correct address. And also, her laying there after he supposedly cut her down, with her knees bent and ankles bound with a very SALIENT RED ROPE should have been clearly visible...But again, he was wearing that dark-colored glasses...Although he clearly stated she had a "BLUE scarf" in her "f*ckin' mouth" so he wasn't color-blind with his glasses, which I assume he had been also wearing that morning...

AND Adam claimed he did CPR on her, although from the clip in the polygraph video he only described barely doing mouth-to-mouth...No tilting of her head back, no chin upward, though he did claim he took the "gag" out of her mouth.

So I really don't know whether Adam was involved or not in Rebecca's death...although he does use similar phrase to Nina that Rebecca "couldn't live with it" and that to me means either he spoke with Nina or another POI who used the exact phrase about Rebecca's state of mind, and since Adam appears to be "stoned" or <modsnip> before he submitted to the polygraph, he might just have latched onto the phrase...

Anyhow, I would like to see the full two-hour polygraph video to make a better assessment of Adam. Can Lash or someone who knows how to obtain public records acquire the full video for us? :)

bourne
05-15-2013, 06:42 PM
My recollection.....SDSO detectives peeked in the garage windows and took down a license number of a car with AZ plates parked inside. However, I think
the license plate number was wrong and I thought there were 3 cars. Jonah's,Rebecca's and the car in the garage. I'll go back research unless someone has answers.

Seems from the police report there were only two cars parked INSIDE the garage. But if that's the case, why did Nina say in an audio interview to CBS8 that she saw Rebecca's car parked in the driveway (not the garage)?

Is Nina lying? And why would she lie?

If Nina's telling the truth, who moved the car then from the driveway to the garage? And why?

IQuestion
05-22-2013, 07:12 PM
I have been following this story for a long time. The most surprising part of Adam's LDT was the overwhelming anger and "bitterness" that permeated the 5 minute clip. I expected to hear a calm interview, from an easy going southern sailor who had experienced a long and exhausting day. The "ah ha!" moment for me was the added the word, "SUPPOSEDLY" when he referenced Rebecca finding MS after the accident. It implies to me that he did not believe it was an accident, had conversations with others who did not believe it was an accident and the "accident theory" was already being doubted by family members when he was at the hospital.
He noted that she was naked, had no shoes on, had a gag in her (effin) mouth ....but COULD NOT SEE THAT HER LEGS AND ARMS WERE BOUND with the "red KEVLAR SYNTHETIC rope??? He had his hands around her body, noticed her hands, noticed her feet had no shoes, removed the "blue scarf gag" from her mouth, worried about what "people would say," put his hands on her chest, put his mouth on hers...etc.
But couldn't tell whether or not she was tied up?? If he was so sure she committed suicide, why would he worry about whether or not she was bound? IMO, even he realizes his willingness/eagerness to push the "suicide scenario" would be in doubt if she was bound. He isn't worried about suicide due to guilt, but "fears, hopes to God" she wasn't tied up...so odd.

IQuestion
05-24-2013, 01:54 AM
Adding to the obvious strangeness of this case...WHO HIRES A DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR A SUICIDE? How many times have you ever heard of a defense attorney arriving on the scene 10 hours before the medical examiner arrives? AS flies 2000 miles to be of support for his brother, I don't know what I would do under the same circumstances...just can't imagine how devastated (or angry?) I would be after seeing my young nephew on life support and less than 12 hours later finding my brother's girlfriend hanging from the balcony. Supposedly and Alledgedly are synonyms people use to express sarcastic doubt.

IQuestion
05-25-2013, 01:56 AM
Observations and Questions about LDT. On the link to the att'd video of the lie detector test @59 seconds AS's watch is on his right wrist. At 1:14 seconds of the interview, his watch is now on his left wrist. Is removal of a wrist watch something an interviewer usually requests? IIRC it had been stated he was given 4 LDT tests during a short time frame...can something as inconsequential as a watch affect the outcome of a LDT? Do men prefer to have their watches on their dominant side (ie right handed men usually wear it on their right?) Curiously (but isn't everything about this curious?) not all the videos aired are as easy to capture images of his wrist and the long sleeves of his blue shirt made it difficult to spot. Can anyone in Rebecca's family tell us what size the Mossimo long sleeved blue shirt was that was used as a gag? Coronado Mansion case death of Rebecca Zahau - Adam Shacknai lie detector report - YouTube

IQuestion
05-25-2013, 03:06 AM
In the video of LDT that is 5:09 in length @ 20 seconds Adam indicates that he cut Rebecca down using his RIGHT hand in a sawing motion (notice clenched right fist as if holding a knife?). However, in the video that is 3:38 in length at 1:08 seconds he NOW indicates that he cut Rebecca down using his LEFT hand in a sawing motion!!! (notice clenched left fist as if holding a knife?) Each time he does his salacious retelling of events....he doesn't seem to remember whether which hand he held the knife in to cut her down.....Good grief! C'mon, it blows my mind....aren't these the kinds of things detectives are supposed to look at when reviewing videos of questioning?? Afterall, wouldn't you think it suspicious if a person said they shot their gun with their right hand, and then in the same afternoon interview, say they shot their gun with their left hand?:banghead::banghead:
There are so many things wrong with this case... I hope my fellow sleuthers are not tiring of me with me pointing out so many of the things that have bothered me about this case. (To have a forum where one can freely state concerns, questions and observations is amazing.)

bourne
05-25-2013, 03:00 PM
Observations and Questions about LDT. On the link to the att'd video of the lie detector test @59 seconds AS's watch is on his right wrist. At 1:14 seconds of the interview, his watch is now on his left wrist. Is removal of a wrist watch something an interviewer usually requests? IIRC it had been stated he was given 4 LDT tests during a short time frame...can something as inconsequential as a watch affect the outcome of a LDT? Do men prefer to have their watches on their dominant side (ie right handed men usually wear it on their right?) Curiously (but isn't everything about this curious?) not all the videos aired are as easy to capture images of his wrist and the long sleeves of his blue shirt made it difficult to spot. Can anyone in Rebecca's family tell us what size the Mossimo long sleeved blue shirt was that was used as a gag? Coronado Mansion case death of Rebecca Zahau - Adam Shacknai lie detector report - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUWxDn8pOWI&feature=endscreen&NR=1)

I agree, something's not right about the polygraph videos the media is showing. Since they haven't given us the entire 2-hour video, I assume it's because the media has edited the video (cut and spliced) so that they can juxtapose multiple videos together and may have flipped the frames while editing.

It is very strange. You'd think the media would at least try to keep the integrity of the polygraph video for professional & credibility reasons. But maybe they WANT us to question the video because they want to sensationalize the case further for profit? I really don't know...SMH

Mrs. Holmes
05-25-2013, 03:08 PM
In the video of LDT that is 5:09 in length @ 20 seconds Adam indicates that he cut Rebecca down using his RIGHT hand in a sawing motion (notice clenched right fist as if holding a knife?). However, in the video that is 3:38 in length at 1:08 seconds he NOW indicates that he cut Rebecca down using his LEFT hand in a sawing motion!!! (notice clenched left fist as if holding a knife?) Each time he does his salacious retelling of events....he doesn't seem to remember whether which hand he held the knife in to cut her down.....Good grief! C'mon, it blows my mind....aren't these the kinds of things detectives are supposed to look at when reviewing videos of questioning?? Afterall, wouldn't you think it suspicious if a person said they shot their gun with their right hand, and then in the same afternoon interview, say they shot their gun with their left hand?:banghead::banghead:
There are so many things wrong with this case... I hope my fellow sleuthers are not tiring of me with me pointing out so many of the things that have bothered me about this case. (To have a forum where one can freely state concerns, questions and observations is amazing.)

Thanks IQuestion... excellent points.... I am going to watch the video a few more times... I wondered if AS had MPD...or DID... when he doesn't remember he seems to have a more childlike personality.... very odd the demonstration of the knife in one hand and then the other...I got this odd feeling that a part of him committed the crime and the other parts of him don't remember but fear what happened... I found AS very odd person... granted it was traumatic <modsnip>...

IQuestion
05-25-2013, 09:06 PM
Aaah Mrs. Holmes, at lst we meet! Hmmm don't know if selective memory is a mental health issue, but his cussing would probably hinder social connections with the genteel gentry. <modsnip> at least it would explain WHO was holding up the patio table with the broken leg, and how he was able to keep his balance, while lowering a bound, dead body already in the first stages of rigor. (It is awfully hard to hold back my "sarcastic doubt" when I type this....but I just gotta say, s-u-p-p-o-s-e-d-l-y.) Now that I think about it..you were just teasing me, huh? Maybe people <modsnip> can change from left handed to right handed, one is a "can do guy, responsible guy" and the other "barely took CPR training."
But, I understand your point MANY parts of the aired video were AWKWARD...and I, too, wish I could watch the entire 2 hours. (Ahem, Atty Fleck...I would eagerly volunteer to revue the full videos and point out every inconsistency I see. Fifty websleuthers watching it and providing a collective report... an awesome thought.)
Airing "40 second soundbites" (unfortunately) is how news is reported nowadays. People (the viewing public en masse) are treated as if all have ADHD. The editors try to capture the moments giving the greatest impact, in the shortest amount of time.
For the record...Why didn't AS just say, "Yeah I think she committed suicide and she told me she was really sad last night."?? No, instead he gives the whole story on why Rebecca should have hanged herself! He is so eager to push the meme of suicide...he practically jumps out of his chair, knows the sequence of events, now says the child's name, makes it a point to say REBECCA IS NOT FAMILY ("especially with someone else's kid"). When suicide is finally suggested and he swings into action and doesn't miss one single reason.... the only part of the interview that doesn't confuse him or claims was a blur.... ODTAA go figure.

Serpico
05-27-2013, 04:33 AM
Observations and Questions about LDT. On the link to the att'd video of the lie detector test @59 seconds AS's watch is on his right wrist. At 1:14 seconds of the interview, his watch is now on his left wrist. Is removal of a wrist watch something an interviewer usually requests? IIRC it had been stated he was given 4 LDT tests during a short time frame...can something as inconsequential as a watch affect the outcome of a LDT? Do men prefer to have their watches on their dominant side (ie right handed men usually wear it on their right?) Curiously (but isn't everything about this curious?) not all the videos aired are as easy to capture images of his wrist and the long sleeves of his blue shirt made it difficult to spot. Can anyone in Rebecca's family tell us what size the Mossimo long sleeved blue shirt was that was used as a gag? Coronado Mansion case death of Rebecca Zahau - Adam Shacknai lie detector report - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUWxDn8pOWI&feature=endscreen&NR=1)

First off - great catch on the "watch". I've looked at this a dozen or so times....I believe he had his watch on his LEFT wrist the entire time and when you see briefly that it's on his right wrist...my hunch it was a mix-up in the splicing editing process.

Inparadise
05-27-2013, 03:59 PM
First off - great catch on the "watch". I've looked at this a dozen or so times....I believe he had his watch on his LEFT wrist the entire time and when you see briefly that it's on his right wrist...my hunch it was a mix-up in the splicing editing process.

Most people wear their watch not on their dominate side.......I am right-handed, and wear it on my left so that I can look at it. Most lefties that I know wear their watches on their right hand. JMO.

IQuestion
05-28-2013, 08:53 PM
LIFTED THIS INFO from the CPatch...It is one of the biggest OMG'S (at least since DS made her KTAR proclamation. Looks as if "lie detector (hired) contractor" may have some issues with providing products and services to LE agencies.....Hmmmmm, now can ya' see just how easy it can be for someone to SWAY an investigation!! http://www.sandiegoreader.com/weblogs/news-ticker/2013/may/28/shacknai-case-polygrapher-focus-of-news-service-in/

IQuestion
05-29-2013, 12:28 AM
This might be more appropriately logged into "articles only" but it is interesting reading:
http://www.wikihow.com/Cheat-a-Polygraph-Test-(Lie-Detector)

*Lash*
05-29-2013, 10:15 AM
LIFTED THIS INFO from the CPatch...It is one of the biggest OMG'S (at least since DS made her KTAR proclamation. Looks as if "lie detector (hired) contractor" may have some issues with providing products and services to LE agencies.....Hmmmmm, now can ya' see just how easy it can be for someone to SWAY an investigation!! http://www.sandiegoreader.com/weblogs/news-ticker/2013/may/28/shacknai-case-polygrapher-focus-of-news-service-in/

Thank you! Very interesting, :waitasec:

Betty P
05-29-2013, 04:38 PM
This might be more appropriately logged into "articles only" but it is interesting reading:
http://www.wikihow.com/Cheat-a-Polygraph-Test-(Lie-Detector)

Interesting and helpful. I've never had to take a polygraph test, but learned while getting my degree in psychology that you should never agree to take one. They're notoriously unreliable. That's why the results are not allowed in court. Refusing to take one doesn't always mean you're guilty, just that you're being cautious.

In many cases here on WS, we often see parents or relatives of missing people criticized for not taking a polygraph, but I'm not sure I would under those circumstances. I'd have to feel fairly certain that I could trust those administering it before I would consent.

Carioca
05-29-2013, 05:13 PM
Interesting and helpful. I've never had to take a polygraph test, but learned while getting my degree in psychology that you should never agree to take one. They're notoriously unreliable. That's why the results are not allowed in court. Refusing to take one doesn't always mean you're guilty, just that you're being cautious.

In many cases here on WS, we often see parents or relatives of missing people criticized for not taking a polygraph, but I'm not sure I would under those circumstances. I'd have to feel fairly certain that I could trust those administering it before I would consent.
Would anyone care to venture guessing or hypothesizing WHY AS consented to taking a polygraph? He, or someone, must have felt it would be to his, or someone's, advantage to submit to one IMO

Mrs. Holmes
05-29-2013, 05:30 PM
LIFTED THIS INFO from the CPatch...It is one of the biggest OMG'S (at least since DS made her KTAR proclamation. Looks as if "lie detector (hired) contractor" may have some issues with providing products and services to LE agencies.....Hmmmmm, now can ya' see just how easy it can be for someone to SWAY an investigation!! http://www.sandiegoreader.com/weblogs/news-ticker/2013/may/28/shacknai-case-polygrapher-focus-of-news-service-in/

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Seems to me that if you want to keep selling lie detector machines it is in your best interest for the "test" to come out the way your potential buyer (LE) wants it to. This is a conflict of interest and simply should not be allowed. Another reason to re-open this case.

I tried to find something on wearing a watch during an exam but found nothing.

ShadyLadySleuth
06-21-2013, 10:06 PM
The video of the lie detector test was most telling. First off, the man giving the test was a little too chummy with AS I thought. Not during the test, but before and afterwards. He seemed to be unprofessional in his manner.

And, secondly, AS remembered the gag in Rebecca's mouth was blue. But he couldn't remember what was around her wrists that he had to shove aside to try to get a pulse! How can you not remember a big, thick, knotted rope? That would stand out in most people's memory! But his memory fades then. It all gets very fuzzy. Except the blue scarf!

Does anyone know what time of day or night the call to 911 was? If it was dark outside, what could he see or not see?

inthedark14
06-21-2013, 10:45 PM
According to http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=770&month=7&year=2011&obj=sun&afl=-11&day=1

The sun rose that morning at 5:50 a.m.

The 911 call came in at 6:45 a.m.
http://www.cbs8.com/story/16150816/911-call-released-in-hanging-death-at-coronados-spreckels-mansion?clienttype=printable

There should have been quite a bit of light.

time
06-22-2013, 07:36 PM
Thank you for finding this article. I think it deser4ves a few quotes here


McClatchy also cites the case of a noted San Diego lie detector expert.

Retired San Diego Police Department polygrapher Paul Redden didn’t return McClatchy’s calls. He’s been listed as a dealer since at least 2007 and last year was identified as a salesman in at least one of San Diego’s purchases from Lafayette.
The police department refused to answer questions about Redden, including when he’d worked there or whether he now works as a contractor. San Diego has been buying Lafayette polygraphs at least since 2002, when it awarded a noncompetitive bid to the company, according to city records obtained under California’s open records laws.
Redden has made news here in the past regarding several nationally famous criminal cases in which he conducted polygraph examinations.
Earlier this month, TV station KFMB aired portions of a video (http://www.cbs8.com/story/22221589/news-8-exclusive-the-polygraph-exam-of-adam-shacknai)it said it had obtained from an unnamed source of Redden's polygraph of Adam Shacknai, brother of Jonah Shacknai, whose girlfriend Rebecca Zahau allegedly hung herself from a balcony at Shacknai's Coronado mansion.


http://www.sandiegoreader.com/weblogs/news-ticker/2013/may/28/shacknai-case-polygrapher-focus-of-news-service-in/

I thought Redden was pretty honest (saying he suggested another poly for Adam at one point) until Adam's polygraph video came out, now this.

inthedark14
06-22-2013, 10:31 PM
Would anyone care to venture guessing or hypothesizing WHY AS consented to taking a polygraph? He, or someone, must have felt it would be to his, or someone's, advantage to submit to one IMO

Hi Caricoa! I seem to remember reading something, and of course I can not recall where right this moment, but something about PP saying he was calling the police station to try to get AS to NOT take the poly. Was it in the book? But IIRC, there was some "special" phone number that was called by PP to reach his client at the police station.

It's always amazed me how quickly PP was one the scene and how quickly he was able to ascertain what was happening (of course, he was behind the crime scene tape and would have the info he needed). It's also very odd that it took until the book was released (IIRC?) that it was publicly stated that he was there as AS' attorney. It was widely speculated previous to that admission that he was contacted by RZ prior to her death, by those supporting and cheering for the suicide ruling that is.

*Lash*
06-23-2013, 10:42 AM
Would anyone care to venture guessing or hypothesizing WHY AS consented to taking a polygraph? He, or someone, must have felt it would be to his, or someone's, advantage to submit to one IMO

Well, AS had quite a few hours to think about it. I believe he began the process somewhere around 6pm and the test started at 6:40pm. Plenty of time to seek advice.

time
06-23-2013, 11:21 AM
Hi Caricoa! I seem to remember reading something, and of course I can not recall where right this moment, but something about PP saying he was calling the police station to try to get AS to NOT take the poly. Was it in the book? But IIRC, there was some "special" phone number that was called by PP to reach his client at the police station.

It's always amazed me how quickly PP was one the scene and how quickly he was able to ascertain what was happening (of course, he was behind the crime scene tape and would have the info he needed). It's also very odd that it took until the book was released (IIRC?) that it was publicly stated that he was there as AS' attorney. It was widely speculated previous to that admission that he was contacted by RZ prior to her death, by those supporting and cheering for the suicide ruling that is.

Weirdly, somewhere in these posts we talked about how PP called 911.

I do also remember some convo about PP trying to get the lie detector stopped.

*Lash*
06-23-2013, 12:26 PM
Snip -

“It was probably Jonah who had retained Paul Pfingst, the lawyer who had texted Adam just before he took the polygraph tests. Unable to reach Adam, Pfingst knew the private number to call at the sheriff’s office where he could get a message to Adam as soon as possible. His intent had indeed been to advise Adam, as Detective Hillen had predicted, that he should avoid the polygraph machine—at least at this point in the investigation.”

Excerpt From: Rule, Ann. “Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors.” This material may be protected by copyright.

*Lash*
06-23-2013, 12:31 PM
Snip -

“Paul Pfingst used a non-published phone number to reach the police,” the legal trio noted, “to tell them not to give his client (Adam) a polygraph. In this recorded call, Pfingst referred to the incident as a ‘homicide.’*”

“We know from experience,” David Fleck wrote, “that homicide detectives do not hobnob with a prime suspect’s defense attorney during an active investigation, and it is highly unusual for a defense attorney to be at a [working] crime scene. At a minimum, it creates a disconcerting appearance of impropriety.”

Excerpt From: Rule, Ann. “Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors.” This material may be protected by copyright.

*Lash*
06-23-2013, 12:33 PM
Snip -

Shortly before five, Detective Hillen phoned Adam and asked if he was still willing to take the test. Adam said he wanted to speak to his brother, Jonah, about it, and Hillen said that was fine—he would call him back in a few minutes.

Hillen did so.

“I have nothing to hide,” Adam said. “I’m willing to take the test.”

It was 5:30 when Adam Shacknai arrived at the San Diego County homicide offices to meet with polygrapher Paul Redden. Once again, Hillen reminded him that he was not compelled to take the test, and that he was present of his own free will. Adam nodded.

And then his cell phone rang. He said he didn’t recognize the number and let it go to his text mailbox. But it rang again a few minutes later. Adam checked the caller ID and saw that it was a message from an attorney’s office.”

“My brother must have called a lawyer for me,” Adam said. “What do you think he wants to say to me?”

“I think,” Hillen said truthfully, “that he would tell you not to take the polygraph test.”

Excerpt From: Rule, Ann. “Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors.” This material may be protected by copyright.

IQuestion
07-01-2013, 12:37 PM
Snip -

Shortly before five, Detective Hillen phoned Adam and asked if he was still willing to take the test. Adam said he wanted to speak to his brother, Jonah, about it, and Hillen said that was fine—he would call him back in a few minutes.

Hillen did so.

“I have nothing to hide,” Adam said. “I’m willing to take the test.”

It was 5:30 when Adam Shacknai arrived at the San Diego County homicide offices to meet with polygrapher Paul Redden. Once again, Hillen reminded him that he was not compelled to take the test, and that he was present of his own free will. Adam nodded.

And then his cell phone rang. He said he didn’t recognize the number and let it go to his text mailbox. But it rang again a few minutes later. Adam checked the caller ID and saw that it was a message from an attorney’s office.”

“My brother must have called a lawyer for me,” Adam said. “What do you think he wants to say to me?”

“I think,” Hillen said truthfully, “that he would tell you not to take the polygraph test.”

Excerpt From: Rule, Ann. “Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors.” This material may be protected by copyright.

I have been reading A LOT about LDT tests...and I have a lot of unexpected thoughts about them. #1. Every LDT is essentially a "soft interrogation" ie it is usually only given to someone the police suspect or have identified as a POI, in the first place.
#2. An examiner does NOT make up his own questions! The questions that are asked are the ones HIS EMPLOYER HAS ASKED TO BE ANSWERED! For instance, LE knows/suspects the POI of being an accomplice to a crime, but wants to know whether or not the POI was the trigger man.
#3. An examiner may hold a great deal of bias against (or coddle?) the person they are "testing" simply because the nature of the crime is so heinous and the attitude of the detectives/employer when they speak to the examiner.
#4. I don't think it is NORMAL PROCEDURE for the LDT administrator to give the results to the POI, right on the spot! Good grief, what if the POI was violent and became physically aggressive after being told they "flunked"??
#5. Even before the revelation of Redden being a "salesman" of LDT's (and possible conflicts as revealed by McClatchy news) I wondered if LE picks examiners the same way real estate agents pick appraisers?? Not only would you want someone who gives the "appraisal" you are paying for, but the agent has the "ear" of the appraiser and can provide inside info to "pump up/justify" the amount on the appraisal.
#6 Three different examiners can look at the same graphs/print outs and come up with different interpretations...one says "passes with flying colors", one says "we need to do another test because the results are inconclusive" and the third one says "the guy flunked the test big time"
#7 If it was my family member who had died....I'd be the first one in line screaming, Give me a polygraph!...because I want everyone to know I had nothing to hide, and the quicker I am eliminated as a POI, the quicker LE can start looking for the real perp!

IQuestion
07-01-2013, 01:02 PM
.....continuing my thoughts. And, maybe, just maybe (I'm just thinking out loud and wondering, ok?)....if I was a devious criminal or intent on trying to find out what/who detectives suspected. I just might take/volunteer for a LDT just to find out where the detectives were in their investigation. Even stranger, what would I do if half way through the questioning, I realize something is VERY, VERY ODD and diametrically opposed to what I asserted. ie "yeah I think she hung herself" and minutes later say, "I hope, I fear she wasn't tied up"
IDK...maybe it was just a long, long day and the editing of the video just emphasizes the glaring differences. ie, sawing motion with right hand, later sawing motion with left hand....
and about 5 other strange observations about the LDT. Any"buddy" else have observations on it...or is it only me who is extremely myopic?

time
07-01-2013, 01:35 PM
IQ ... my biggest problem in looking at that lie detector test is that it pulls me in two different directions about Adam, but I keep thinking it is neither A nor B (he is being honest or dishonest, notguilty/guilty of something), but C. I can never quite get to what "C" is though. My weird theory is that Adam is lying about not having talked with Jonah or the lawyer prior to arriving and that they spent the day scrambling his head! I know, I know. Or maybe he hadn't talked to them and Dina spent the day scrambling it. Or Adam took some heavy sedation, hypnosis, or something between 6 am and 6 pm. There's something definitely wrong there.

IQuestion
07-02-2013, 03:51 AM
IQ ... my biggest problem in looking at that lie detector test is that it pulls me in two different directions about Adam, but I keep thinking it is neither A nor B (he is being honest or dishonest, notguilty/guilty of something), but C. I can never quite get to what "C" is though. My weird theory is that Adam is lying about not having talked with Jonah or the lawyer prior to arriving and that they spent the day scrambling his head! I know, I know. Or maybe he hadn't talked to them and Dina spent the day scrambling it. Or Adam took some heavy sedation, hypnosis, or something between 6 am and 6 pm. There's something definitely wrong there.

TIME...I totally understand your point! The problem is sometimes his words follow a natural progression of thought. And yet, his actions are just the opposite. #1)ie showing a cutting motion with right hand, and next time with left hand.) He is recalling events that occurred that day...not a year later. So that really stands out as ODD. #2) His watch on his right wrist at the beginning and then later being on his left wrist...again very ODD.
#3) Redden asks, "Does it seem to you like it is a suicide?" AS replies, "YES, ABSOLUTELY." Redden, "OK, what makes you think that? AS, "It's just what crossed my mind, ya know, ya just, because I thought she was there,. supposedly. Uh, um, maybe she just can't live with it. I've never been in that situation. I'm not gonna say I couldn't especially with someone else's kid ya know. Redden, "Yeah, but did she seem suicidal or anything like that? AS, "NO, I don't get...ya know, I mean YOU JUST DON'T EVER THINK OF THAT."
That also seems ODD to me. Yes, absolutely & it's just what crossed my mind. And then immediately after it seems that he retracts the statement with the very next answer he gives, as to whether or not she seemed suicidal. "No. I don't get...ya know I mean..You just don't ever think of that."
BINGO! Why is he so convinced RZ would commit suicide, if every one was being told (including RZ) MS was going to get better??? Hmmm, I think AS knew MS's injuries were very, very serious and probably not survivable on Tuesday night. Suddenly the words "especially with someone else's kid, ya know" sound eerily familiar. Remember the text to Mary in which RZ wrote (paraphrase) "I love him like my own, but he is not." Did RZ say similar words to AS in the car, or could he have read the text on her phone? Ugh, I need to get some sleep...I can't figure "C" out either! I think he has strong doubts about the "suicide" theory, too. "You just don't ever think of that"

time
07-02-2013, 11:23 AM
IQ... I think the problem for me is that he sounds more confused and scrambled than guilty even with the body language not aligning with what he is saying (or saying more than what he is saying). And on the 911 call he was also goofy and seemingly cold. And, on both he just says odd stuff. So :waitasec:

IQuestion
07-02-2013, 06:52 PM
IQ... I think the problem for me is that he sounds more confused and scrambled than guilty even with the body language not aligning with what he is saying (or saying more than what he is saying). And on the 911 call he was also goofy and seemingly cold. And, on both he just says odd stuff. So :waitasec:

TIME...that's the ticket!! Sometimes you point out things that REALLY MAKE SENSE...yep he "acted" confused and scrambled, until the (In my opinion rehearsed) storyline was introduced by the LDT administrator. He goes on in an incredulous awe, (now using my Gomer Pyle "Golly Sarge, accent") can you belive she had a "effin" rag stuffed in her mouth?
Redden @ 2:58 sec: "Does it seem to you like it is a suicide?"
AS @3:00 sec: " YES, ABSOLUTELY!"
Every time I look at the clips of his LDT and even listen to the 911 call...The only things that are NEVER, NEVER confused or scrambled is the theme he has pushed since the beginning. "Gotta girl, hung herself" and "YES, ABSOLUTELY!"Everything else he says, has always been full of uhs, ho-hums, arm waiving, heavy breathing, screaming, cussing, hyper-ventilating while looking for an address, feigned confusion, (ie I think there was something I had to move to check her hand)...etc, etc, etc...
I strongly agree "someone, someones or something" put the idea of SUICIDE into his mind. Yes...he sure acts like he is confused and scrambled for much of the video but practically jumps out of his seat, as if hit by a lightening bolt of absolute clarity.....YES, ABSOLUTELY.
His confusion and scrambling suddenly went poof, huh?
ps. TIME..thanks for making watch the video more closely...it made me see things more clearly.

ShadyLadySleuth
07-03-2013, 10:13 AM
I would like to look at this strange case from the point of view of it being a suicide, as it was finally ruled to be.

It is extremely rare for a suicide to die naked and bound in such a public way. But it does happen. I remember the case of Bill Sparkman, who's suicide perplexed many as it at first seemed a homicide for sure. He was found bound to a tree, hands and feet duct taped, his mouth covered with duct tape, and naked except for his socks. The word "FED" was scrawled on his chest (he was a US Government census taker). He staged his death to look like a homicide so his life insurance payoff would pay to his son, which would not happen if it was ruled a suicide.

Perhaps RZ staged her own suicide to look like a homicide. Perhaps she thought her "good" life was over after the accident, that she would be moved out of the mansion,and out of her boyfriend's life, or be blamed for the accident herself. Who knows what thoughts she had during those last dark hours of her life?

Re: AS's LDT - two things come to mind. First, since he found the body, LE would look long and hard at him as a POI in this bizarre case. Many good defense lawyers would counsel a client to not take a LTD right away! They are unreliable and subject to interpretation and not admissible in court.

Re: AS's jumping on the "suicide" bandwagon so fast. Let's look at the alternative for him: if it was not suicide, then it was a murder; if a murder then that would require LE to look at him, his brother, and everyone in his family circle as possible perpetrators. He went into overdrive to protect his family, as an almost automatic response. It's like asking a Mom if they think their son committed a murder, the first instinct is to say "NO! He wouldn't do that!" Family self preservation response.

This is such a bizarre case, I frankly do not know what to believe for sure.

time
07-03-2013, 10:47 AM
TIME...that's the ticket!! Sometimes you point out things that REALLY MAKE SENSE...yep he "acted" confused and scrambled, until the (In my opinion rehearsed) storyline was introduced by the LDT administrator. He goes on in an incredulous awe, (now using my Gomer Pyle "Golly Sarge, accent") can you belive she had a "effin" rag stuffed in her mouth?
Redden @ 2:58 sec: "Does it seem to you like it is a suicide?"
AS @3:00 sec: " YES, ABSOLUTELY!"
Every time I look at the clips of his LDT and even listen to the 911 call...The only things that are NEVER, NEVER confused or scrambled is the theme he has pushed since the beginning. "Gotta girl, hung herself" and "YES, ABSOLUTELY!"Everything else he says, has always been full of uhs, ho-hums, arm waiving, heavy breathing, screaming, cussing, hyper-ventilating while looking for an address, feigned confusion, (ie I think there was something I had to move to check her hand)...etc, etc, etc...
I strongly agree "someone, someones or something" put the idea of SUICIDE into his mind. Yes...he sure acts like he is confused and scrambled for much of the video but practically jumps out of his seat, as if hit by a lightening bolt of absolute clarity.....YES, ABSOLUTELY.
His confusion and scrambling suddenly went poof, huh?
ps. TIME..thanks for making watch the video more closely...it made me see things more clearly.

Others here are probably thinking the same thing I'm going to say. Sometimes I think you can put more stock in body language (with caution, of course) than in the words someone is saying since we are often unaware of what our body is saying. IDK...

IQuestion
07-03-2013, 09:25 PM
I would like to look at this strange case from the point of view of it being a suicide, as it was finally ruled to be.

It is extremely rare for a suicide to die naked and bound in such a public way. But it does happen. I remember the case of Bill Sparkman, who's suicide perplexed many as it at first seemed a homicide for sure. He was found bound to a tree, hands and feet duct taped, his mouth covered with duct tape, and naked except for his socks. The word "FED" was scrawled on his chest (he was a US Government census taker). He staged his death to look like a homicide so his life insurance payoff would pay to his son, which would not happen if it was ruled a suicide.

Perhaps RZ staged her own suicide to look like a homicide. Perhaps she thought her "good" life was over after the accident, that she would be moved out of the mansion,and out of her boyfriend's life, or be blamed for the accident herself. Who knows what thoughts she had during those last dark hours of her life?

Re: AS's LDT - two things come to mind. First, since he found the body, LE would look long and hard at him as a POI in this bizarre case. Many good defense lawyers would counsel a client to not take a LTD right away! They are unreliable and subject to interpretation and not admissible in court.

Re: AS's jumping on the "suicide" bandwagon so fast. Let's look at the alternative for him: if it was not suicide, then it was a murder; if a murder then that would require LE to look at him, his brother, and everyone in his family circle as possible perpetrators. He went into overdrive to protect his family, as an almost automatic response. It's like asking a Mom if they think their son committed a murder, the first instinct is to say "NO! He wouldn't do that!" Family self preservation response.
This is such a bizarre case, I frankly do not know what to believe for sure.


I would like to look at this strange case from the point of view of it being a suicide, as it was finally ruled to be.

It is extremely rare for a suicide to die naked and bound in such a public way. But it does happen. I remember the case of Bill Sparkman, who's suicide perplexed many as it at first seemed a homicide for sure. He was found bound to a tree, hands and feet duct taped, his mouth covered with duct tape, and naked except for his socks. The word "FED" was scrawled on his chest (he was a US Government census taker). He staged his death to look like a homicide so his life insurance payoff would pay to his son, which would not happen if it was ruled a suicide.

Perhaps RZ staged her own suicide to look like a homicide. Perhaps she thought her "good" life was over after the accident, that she would be moved out of the mansion,and out of her boyfriend's life, or be blamed for the accident herself. Who knows what thoughts she had during those last dark hours of her life?

Re: AS's LDT - two things come to mind. First, since he found the body, LE would look long and hard at him as a POI in this bizarre case. Many good defense lawyers would counsel a client to not take a LTD right away! They are unreliable and subject to interpretation and not admissible in court.

Re: AS's jumping on the "suicide" bandwagon so fast. Let's look at the alternative for him: if it was not suicide, then it was a murder; if a murder then that would require LE to look at him, his brother, and everyone in his family circle as possible perpetrators. He went into overdrive to protect his family, as an almost automatic response. It's like asking a Mom if they think their son committed a murder, the first instinct is to say "NO! He wouldn't do that!" Family self preservation response.
This is such a bizarre case, I frankly do not know what to believe for sure.

Exact-a-mundo! I think the bolded Re: would be a "bingo" for SHADYLADYSLEUTHER on aisle 9! The family members have shown they are willing to fly in to town, at a moment's notice, when a crisis has occurred to offer comfort and emotional support. (I find no fault in anyone supporting a sibling, spouse, parent etc...which makes me think everyone knew the situation was very dire, within a matter of hours.) Good news travels fast, bad news travels faster? Perhaps that is why the LDT sends mixed messages between action and verbalization....acknowledging RZ's death, yet "I fear, hope to God she wasn't tied up"?? Being tied up might very well indicate/implicate another person known to him.
Try to imagine a police detective, showing up at your door, asking if you drove your car last night...because the vehicle was identified as leaving the scene of a crime. Well, if you tell the detective, "I was home all night and didn't use the car." Something in the back of your head would be also be thinking....could it be my spouse or one of my kids?? (Geez, I got a sick feeling just thinking about such a scenario)....Frankly, at that moment, I'd be praying to God :please:please tell me a stranger stole my car last night!! :please: So, if the detective asks, "Do you think your car could have been stolen?" I Would reply, YES ABSOLUTELY!

IQuestion
07-05-2013, 05:28 AM
I would like to look at this strange case from the point of view of it being a suicide, as it was finally ruled to be.
Thank you for addressing the possibility of suicide. I suppose anything is possible...but I am unable to fully commit to suicide, even though the last person known to have seen her alive & also found her hanging told the 911 operators, police and LDT administrator.It is extremely rare for a suicide to die naked and bound in such a public way. But it does happen. I remember the case of Bill Sparkman, who's suicide perplexed many as it at first seemed a homicide for sure. He was found bound to a tree, hands and feet duct taped, his mouth covered with duct tape, and naked except for his socks. The word "FED" was scrawled on his chest (he was a US Government census taker). He staged his death to look like a homicide so his life insurance payoff would pay to his son, which would not happen if it was ruled a suicide.
OK, but the writing on the wall (ain't that a Freudian slip?) was written in the "third person singular"...who writes like that? I keep imagining RZ tied to a chair screaming, "I didn't and wouldn't hurt him..I tried to save him!" So is the writing on the wall: a) a killer's taunt b) a confession c)an explanation of what she is about to do? d) or an enraged person sending a message to the owner of the house? If one was to make an inference from the Bill Sparkman case....then RZ should have written something on her chest to make it look like a murder, huh? Also, why bother to take a shower, scream for help, and play loud music if you are planning to kill yourself?

Perhaps RZ staged her own suicide to look like a homicide. Perhaps she thought her "good" life was over after the accident, that she would be moved out of the mansion,and out of her boyfriend's life, or be blamed for the accident herself. Who knows what thoughts she had during those last dark hours of her life? Yes, but RZ was a survivor and only in her early 30's...she could always start a new life. She had experienced heartbreak and separation before and was not a lovesick teenager with few life experiences. However, since none of are privy to the DEVASTATING MIDNIGHT PHONE CALL
...oh scratch that!! She took a shower at 10:30 PM...so why would a towel be in the hallway 3 hours later? (that would imply she was planning suicide a full 2 hours before she received the DEVASTATING phone call...and boarded her dog 8 hours before the DEVASTATING phone call, huh?
Re: AS's LDT - two things come to mind. First, since he found the body, LE would look long and hard at him as a POI in this bizarre case. Many good defense lawyers would counsel a client to not take a LTD right away! They are unreliable and subject to interpretation and not admissible in court.
I AGREE 100%
Re: AS's jumping on the "suicide" bandwagon so fast. Let's look at the alternative for him: if it was not suicide, then it was a murder; if a murder then that would require LE to look at him, his brother, and everyone in his family circle as possible perpetrators. He went into overdrive to protect his family, as an almost automatic response. It's like asking a Mom if they think their son committed a murder, the first instinct is to say "NO! He wouldn't do that!" Family self preservation response.

This is such a bizarre case, I frankly do not know what to believe for sure. A little part of me is unsure also. But if people commit suicide because they are bullied, insulted, manipulated (and she was manipulated by not receiving the truth of MS's condition for a long time). Should I think...suicide is OK? Or should I try to understand the incredible sorrow she must have felt when (if) she was told her smiling, adorable little boy she had bonded with over the last 2 years was not going to survive? I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT KIND OF SORROW. But, why in the world would she need or want to paint on walls, drag rope out of a garage, take off all her clothing, remove her earrings, necklace, rings, gold bracelets (but leave rubber Bionic Bands on her wrists) and gag herself with a blue Mossimo long sleeved T-shirt?? Suddenly "naked suicide" appears to be "partially naked suicide"....and that is really, really strange. MZL said, "all I know for sure is Rebecca would be alive if.............." So far, that is the only statement I can agree with totally.
PS...thanks for your thoughtful contributions. Great input.

ShadyLadySleuth
07-14-2013, 02:34 PM
Rebecca Zahau Family Files $10M Wrongful Death Lawsuit against Shacknai's brother Jonah, ex-wife and her sister. See link.

Sometimes this is the only recourse to a family when they believe they were denied justice.

http://coronado.patch.com/groups/breaking-news/p/zahau-family-files-wrongful-death-suit-against-shacknai-family-members

LoveAlways7
07-16-2013, 12:55 PM
IQ... I think the problem for me is that he sounds more confused and scrambled than guilty even with the body language not aligning with what he is saying (or saying more than what he is saying). And on the 911 call he was also goofy and seemingly cold. And, on both he just says odd stuff. So :waitasec:

Maybe Adam wasn't actually the one that cut her down. Just a thought that crossed my mind.

I need to go back and listen to the 911 call again, I recall wondering if Adam was speaking with someone else while on the call

Heal
07-21-2013, 01:16 PM
Thanks!

I just googled and located the video below as well. It is very interesting.


Observations and Questions about LDT. On the link to the att'd video of the lie detector test @59 seconds AS's watch is on his right wrist. At 1:14 seconds of the interview, his watch is now on his left wrist. Is removal of a wrist watch something an interviewer usually requests? IIRC it had been stated he was given 4 LDT tests during a short time frame...can something as inconsequential as a watch affect the outcome of a LDT? Do men prefer to have their watches on their dominant side (ie right handed men usually wear it on their right?) Curiously (but isn't everything about this curious?) not all the videos aired are as easy to capture images of his wrist and the long sleeves of his blue shirt made it difficult to spot. Can anyone in Rebecca's family tell us what size the Mossimo long sleeved blue shirt was that was used as a gag? Coronado Mansion case death of Rebecca Zahau - Adam Shacknai lie detector report - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUWxDn8pOWI&feature=endscreen&NR=1)

Heal
07-21-2013, 01:19 PM
does someone here have the transcript of the video below?

Coronado Mansion case death of Rebecca Zahau - Adam Shacknai lie detector report - YouTube

time
07-21-2013, 01:23 PM
Maybe Adam wasn't actually the one that cut her down. Just a thought that crossed my mind.

I need to go back and listen to the 911 call again, I recall wondering if Adam was speaking with someone else while on the call

Interesting thought. What also comes to mind was him saying something about her hands tied to her feet (I think). I also wonder if she was possibly cut down earlier, while it was still dark out. Something is off, but I don't know if we have enough clues to know what.

Heal
07-21-2013, 01:42 PM
Found the transcript. Thanks!

So, per:

"I got a knife with the butcher block thing -- came back out -- cut her down -- and tried called 9-1-1 shortly thereafter -- if not before"

AS could have cut her down AFTER/DURING (not before) the 911 call, and per the 911 call, it seems so.


Originally Posted by Carioca View Post
Oops, posted this on wrong thread, so have moved it here... Apologies.
Not easy to discern certain AS' words at times. His thoughts often jump nonsensically. All corrections welcome:

News 8 Exclusive - The polygraph examination of Adam Shacknai
http://www.cbs8.com/story/22221589/n...nttype=generic

Date: 7/13/2011
Time video begins: 7:33:17PM

AS: I think.. I got to reach her and realized I wasn't going to be able to get her off without a knife. You know I tried -- I realized -- quite quickly. You know I realized this thing will happen like this. I went around the back into the house which the door was open. I got a knife with the butcher block thing -- came back out -- cut her down -- and tried called 9-1-1 shortly thereafter -- if not before.

PR: OK. Did you at any point think she was alive?

AS: I'm well.. you know. Call me a can-do person or something -- but -- probably not. But I thought, how would I answer -- for this if I didn't try something. I'm a responsible person.

PR: OK. Tried some CPR?

AS: Yeah

PR: OK. Have you been trained in that? With the boat stuff?

AS: Years and years ago. Not enough to amount to anything.

PR: OK. So, tried some CPR. Now -- and so -- was there anything else unusual? What kind of chain (unintelligible?) was it, like a bed sheet or what?

AS: It was a ******ing rope, man. Red rope. Unless my memory is failing me, you know, something -- it wasn't just something that you would be laying around, somewhere. I wouldn't think.

PR: Alright. So could you tell whether it was a material or something?

AS: Kinda like a Kevlar, synthetic

PR: OK. Like nylon...

AS: Yeah

PR: Or something like that?

PR: OK, and -- so what, there were no shoes, not a stitch on?

AS: Not that I recall

PR: So her hands were hanging down by her side then?

AS: I don't know because here's the thing. I don't remember about her hands. Because after I cut her down I went to take her pulse -- you know -- at some point, which I didn't even do at first. I remember having to get something out of the way -- of her hands -- and that's why I've been asking these detectives and stuff if she was tied up or what. I mean I'm like, I'm kind of in all a blur [cross talk]...

PR: Blur yeah.

AS: You know but -- but I remember having to move something to try to get her pulse out of the way -- you know very much [cross talk]

PR: You don't remember anything unusual?

AS: I don't remember that, but I just -- I fear -- I hope to God she wasn't tied up but -- and again -- I asked the detectives there -- you know -- I don't recall.

PR: Now as far as the CPR. You did the chest compressions and you did blow in her mouth, in her nose?

AS: I got the -- once I got 9-1-1 on the line, I went ahead and blew in her mouth.

PR: OK. And her mouth was open and clear and everything?

AS: I didn't even do all that at first. I should have. I didn't. I didn't do that tilt. I think they said tilt the head back and do that. I didn't do any of that stuff.

PR: OK

AS: I just put my mouth over hers and said **** it, it's my brother's girlfriend and I'll do it. And I did it.

PR: And there was no tape across her mouth or anything like this?

AS: No. There was a ******ing gag in her mouth though.

PR: A gag in her mouth?

AS: Yeah

PR: What was that?

AS: Something, yeah. I had to pull something out of her ****ing mouth. It was like a blue scarf.

[time stamp jumps from 7:36:54PM to 7:40:29PM]

PR: Does it seem to you like it's a suicide then at that point?

AS: YES ABSOLUTELY [AS sits forward in chair, then leans back]

PR: OK, and what makes you think that?

AS: It's just what crossed my mind you know -- just because -- I thought she was THERE, when Max got hurt,supposedly. UM UM -- you know maybe she just can't LIVE with it, you know. I've never been in that situation. I'm not going to -- I can't say that I could, especially if it was someone else's kid, you know.

PR: Did she seem suicidal or anything like that?

AS: No. I don't get -- you know, I mean -- you just don't ever think of that.

[time stamp jumps from 7:40:29PM to 8:11:49PM]

PR: Look straight ahead listen and concentrate on each question.

AS: OK

PR: Only respond yes or no

AS: OK

PR: But the most important thing of all is what?

AS: Be honest?

PR: That's it. Be honest, don't lie, be honest in your answers [unintelligible]

PR: Regarding the death of Rebecca, do you know for sure if anyone did anything to hurt her that resulted in her death?

AS: No

PR: Regarding the death of Rebecca, did you yourself do anything to her that resulted in her death?

AS: No

PR: Regarding the death of Rebecca, were you in that guest room that she was found hanging from at any time during the night?

AS: No

[time stamp jumps from 8:22:47PM to 8:40:19PM]

PR: These are hard tests to do when you're this close to what's going on here like you said...

AS: Yeah

PR: Because it's hard to get rid of that emotional factor

AS: Right

PR: Um, and you could have done a whole lot worse on the test (AS shakes head). And you could have done a whole lot better too.

AS: (makes a psshoo sound - snaps finger)

PR: Based on what I've got here -- we're kind of in the inconclusive range. But it clearly doesn't bother me that much, because I think that if you were (unintelligible) that close, there is no way I could prevent you from giving me SOME reaction. But as far as being involved in it, I am not INCLINED to believe that. Um, but you're definitely not flunking my test, so that's kinda -- somewhat of a good thing.

[Time stamp jumps from 8:41:44PM to 8:44:44PM]

PR: Appreciate your cooperation. I know it's a tough thing to do and certainly appreciate you working with us on this. Wasn't so bad, was it?

AS: It was.

PR: It wasn't as bad as you thought it was going to be though?

AS: It was.

PR: It was?

AS: Yeah.

[Time stamp ends 8:44:56PM]

-----------------------------

There were 10 questions. The video only includes 3 of them. Within the first 12 hours Rebecca's death was being investigated as a homicide. AS discovered her body, thus any investigation would consider him a POI. Why is Mr Redden so darn appreciative and accommodating to AS?! Will comment more on this under separate comment.

STS-135
07-26-2013, 03:06 AM
Observations and Questions about LDT. On the link to the att'd video of the lie detector test @59 seconds AS's watch is on his right wrist. At 1:14 seconds of the interview, his watch is now on his left wrist. Is removal of a wrist watch something an interviewer usually requests? IIRC it had been stated he was given 4 LDT tests during a short time frame...can something as inconsequential as a watch affect the outcome of a LDT? Do men prefer to have their watches on their dominant side (ie right handed men usually wear it on their right?) Curiously (but isn't everything about this curious?) not all the videos aired are as easy to capture images of his wrist and the long sleeves of his blue shirt made it difficult to spot. Can anyone in Rebecca's family tell us what size the Mossimo long sleeved blue shirt was that was used as a gag? Coronado Mansion case death of Rebecca Zahau - Adam Shacknai lie detector report - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUWxDn8pOWI&feature=endscreen&NR=1)

It seems that portions of the video were simply flipped during editing. He was leaning on a table to his left. When the watch mysteriously switches sides, he appears to be leaning in the opposite direction. Awesome catch!

STS-135
07-26-2013, 03:10 AM
In the video of LDT that is 5:09 in length @ 20 seconds Adam indicates that he cut Rebecca down using his RIGHT hand in a sawing motion (notice clenched right fist as if holding a knife?). However, in the video that is 3:38 in length at 1:08 seconds he NOW indicates that he cut Rebecca down using his LEFT hand in a sawing motion!!! (notice clenched left fist as if holding a knife?) Each time he does his salacious retelling of events....he doesn't seem to remember whether which hand he held the knife in to cut her down.....Good grief! C'mon, it blows my mind....aren't these the kinds of things detectives are supposed to look at when reviewing videos of questioning?? Afterall, wouldn't you think it suspicious if a person said they shot their gun with their right hand, and then in the same afternoon interview, say they shot their gun with their left hand?:banghead::banghead:
There are so many things wrong with this case... I hope my fellow sleuthers are not tiring of me with me pointing out so many of the things that have bothered me about this case. (To have a forum where one can freely state concerns, questions and observations is amazing.)

Portions of the video must've been flipped during editing. Because the table he was leaning on, although not always visible, also appears to be switching sides as evidenced by the eight of his shoulders, the direction his head is pointing in, etc. And surely no one was moving that table. Nice catch, however!

STS-135
07-26-2013, 03:27 AM
TIME...that's the ticket!! Sometimes you point out things that REALLY MAKE SENSE...yep he "acted" confused and scrambled, until the (In my opinion rehearsed) storyline was introduced by the LDT administrator. He goes on in an incredulous awe, (now using my Gomer Pyle "Golly Sarge, accent") can you belive she had a "effin" rag stuffed in her mouth?
Redden @ 2:58 sec: "Does it seem to you like it is a suicide?"
AS @3:00 sec: " YES, ABSOLUTELY!"
Every time I look at the clips of his LDT and even listen to the 911 call...The only things that are NEVER, NEVER confused or scrambled is the theme he has pushed since the beginning. "Gotta girl, hung herself" and "YES, ABSOLUTELY!"Everything else he says, has always been full of uhs, ho-hums, arm waiving, heavy breathing, screaming, cussing, hyper-ventilating while looking for an address, feigned confusion, (ie I think there was something I had to move to check her hand)...etc, etc, etc...
I strongly agree "someone, someones or something" put the idea of SUICIDE into his mind. Yes...he sure acts like he is confused and scrambled for much of the video but practically jumps out of his seat, as if hit by a lightening bolt of absolute clarity.....YES, ABSOLUTELY.
His confusion and scrambling suddenly went poof, huh?
ps. TIME..thanks for making watch the video more closely...it made me see things more clearly.

I agree. A huge red flag IMO. I remember having an AH HA moment when I saw the video. Up until that moment he seemed understandably 'dazed and confused'. After that sudden burst of clarity it's almost impossible to believe anything else he says. How could such a so-called expert have possibly failed to notice it? Or did he and that's the reason why he gave him the exact same test four times as Anne Rule asserts in her book? Or is repeating the same questions four times standard procedure? Does anyone know?

STS-135
07-26-2013, 03:43 AM
A little part of me is unsure also. But if people commit suicide because they are bullied, insulted, manipulated (and she was manipulated by not receiving the truth of MS's condition for a long time). Should I think...suicide is OK? Or should I try to understand the incredible sorrow she must have felt when (if) she was told her smiling, adorable little boy she had bonded with over the last 2 years was not going to survive? I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT KIND OF SORROW. But, why in the world would she need or want to paint on walls, drag rope out of a garage, take off all her clothing, remove her earrings, necklace, rings, gold bracelets (but leave rubber Bionic Bands on her wrists) and gag herself with a blue Mossimo long sleeved T-shirt?? Suddenly "naked suicide" appears to be "partially naked suicide"....and that is really, really strange. MZL said, "all I know for sure is Rebecca would be alive if.............." So far, that is the only statement I can agree with totally.
PS...thanks for your thoughtful contributions. Great input.

Because that's what most women would do when about to take a shower. Why would she also need to take off her rubber bracelets? If she was out and about watering the garden that hot, brightly lit (almost a full moon with 98% illumination) summer evening, taking a shower when finished is to me perfectly reasonable and would also explain the mud on her feet.

*Lash*
07-26-2013, 09:07 AM
Someone with Jonah's intelligence and ability to maintain a cool head under extreme duress. NR was probably not the only one who immediately began suspecting that her twin sister was involved. JS in all likelyhood did too.

I seem to recall someone posting confirmation a while back that he and Dina were actually staying in the same hotel room the night she could only be pegged as being in the vicinity of the hospital. Did he stay put bedside? Or did he at any time of the night walk over to the nearby hotel only to find out that Dina wasn't there?

Whatever excuse she used, like "I just couldn't sleep and went for a walk" I too would've believed given the circumstances - all along suspecting deep inside that it may not be true given her state of mind that Tuesday and her proneness for impulsiveness and violence.

As such, knowing that his brother was the only other person on the premises, he would've no doubt immediately realized that his brother would become the likely suspect. Please keep in mind that this is a guy who shortly thereafter was already also calling a PR firm. And I honestly can't say that I blame him for a man in his corporate position at the time.

In summary, I'm still-fence sitting on whether Jonah was involved in a cover up, but I sure don't believe that he was involved in her murder.

BBM - The nights in question, Tuesday night into Wednesday morning. Nina is the person who alleged in her phone interview DS and JS were sharing a room at the Ronald McDonald House, not a hotel. SDSO has never stated this. Although SDSO in their first press conference led the public to believe both DS and JS were at Max's bedside all night via video surveillance, it changed in their second press conference when questioned further by a reporter. During the investigation LE requested surveillance video from Rady's hospital. The did not find Dina on the surveillance video, but did capture Jonah. SDSO stated they were able to narrow down Dina's location from her cellphone triangulation. In SW 11-165 Jonah told detectives he went to the RMH around 1:00am.

From 11/17 press conference -

GORE:
I forgot what the question was.

REPORTER:
Dina on surveillance tape.

GORE:
[Peruses document for 20 seconds] We don’t have her on surveillance tape. Her position was determined through GPS triangulation on her cell phone, which put her in the vicinity of Rady's Children's Hospital.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/index.html

screecher
07-26-2013, 09:41 AM
Because that's what most women would do when about to take a shower. Why would she also need to take off her rubber bracelets? If she was out and about watering the garden that hot, brightly lit (almost a full moon with 98% illumination) summer evening, taking a shower when finished is to me perfectly reasonable and would also explain the mud on her feet.

BBM

Why would Becky be out and about watering the garden? It is my understanding the mansion has/had a sprinkler system.

Gilgamesh
07-26-2013, 10:17 AM
Adding to the obvious strangeness of this case...WHO HIRES A DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR A SUICIDE? How many times have you ever heard of a defense attorney arriving on the scene 10 hours before the medical examiner arrives? AS flies 2000 miles to be of support for his brother, I don't know what I would do under the same circumstances...just can't imagine how devastated (or angry?) I would be after seeing my young nephew on life support and less than 12 hours later finding my brother's girlfriend hanging from the balcony. Supposedly and Alledgedly are synonyms people use to express sarcastic doubt.

The first part of the sentence is fact. Adam DID fly 2000 miles. The second half of the sentence is speculation. Why did Adam fly 2000 miles? Apparently he and his brother were not close. Adam was on the property when RZ was murdered. Again, when I separate the facts from the assumptions, it gives me great pause.

( I tried to emphasize the sentence I was referring to in blue but it didn't work. I will capitalize it:
AS FLIES 2000 MILES TO BE OF SUPPORT TO HIS BROTHER).

bourne
07-26-2013, 10:59 AM
BBM

Why would Becky be out and about watering the garden? It is my understanding the mansion has/had a sprinkler system.

Not only that but it was AFTER 8pm at night on Tuesday. Why would anyone be watering plants in the middle of the night even if they didn't have a sprinkler system? That makes NO sense. To me, it is obvious someone's trying to throw curve balls and everything including the kitchen sink into the mix in order to obfuscate the facts and confuse peeps who are not familiar with the evidence in this case. I also believe this person is attempting to mock and taunt some gullible peeps. All IMO.

Gilgamesh
07-26-2013, 11:06 AM
"Where you came and got the kid the other day"
"Got a girl, hung herself."

Adam was in a panicky state when he made the 911 call. Perhaps that accounts for his wording. When I say the words in those 2 sentences, I feel a complete emotional disconnect
from both of those human beings. Their humanity disappears. I find it interesting if nothing else.

Adam TEXTS Jonah after 'finding' Rebecca. Jonah does not return the communication. Wow.

Dina is making a lot of noise. It is easy to focus mostly on her. When I look at the bare bones/ basic facts about Adam, I am suspicious about why he flew there in the first place.
I am keeping an open mind about it. JMO

Gilgamesh
07-26-2013, 11:56 AM
Does anyone have a copy of the response by Adam's boss after this first became big news ( in 2011 ). As I recall, Adam not only did not tell anyone where he was going when he flew to Spreckels, he actually lied about it. TIA

K_Z
07-26-2013, 12:25 PM
"Where you came and got the kid the other day"
"Got a girl, hung herself."

Adam was in a panicky state when he made the 911 call. Perhaps that accounts for his wording. When I say the words in those 2 sentences, I feel a complete emotional disconnect
from both of those human beings. Their humanity disappears. I find it interesting if nothing else.

Adam TEXTS Jonah after 'finding' Rebecca. Jonah does not return the communication. Wow.

Dina is making a lot of noise. It is easy to focus mostly on her. When I look at the bare bones/ basic facts about Adam, I am suspicious about why he flew there in the first place.
I am keeping an open mind about it. JMO

It's difficult to make an assessment about someone from a few brief comments made under the stress of a polygraph and a gruesome death scene. It's best to have a complete picture of someone's functioning when making assessments about their interpersonal interactions, language, syntax, etc.

Having said this, I (and many others) agree that at a minimum, AS's public statements and polygraph interactions are quite odd-- EVEN in the face of such a stressful situation. I have personally wondered if AS has some type of emotional/ behavioral disability (high functioning) such as being on the autism spectrum. I wonder how large the crew is on his tugboat job, and how much he has to interact in that environment. He may have gravitated to a type of job where he doesn't have to have much interaction with others, due to his odd personality and interactive habits. Just speculation.

All of his comments, including the blunt admission about his masturbation activities, and the comments to LE about his "bedside manner", demonstrate a rather flat, socially inappropriate, and disconnected pattern of interaction, IMO. His syntax is peculiar. He may communicate more appropriately in less stressful situations, and deteriorate to this flat and disconnected inappropriate pattern under stress. I personally cannot attribute this odd pattern of interaction to Ambien use.

One of the things that nags at me when I think of AS and something like the possibility high functioning autism, or some other Axis II disorder, is the potential for someone like this to be manipulated by others. Even very odd people can be "vulnerable adults". And when I think of Dina's and Jonah's involvement and interest with the autism population and therapy programs, I wonder if AS fits into that interest somewhere. It also would make sense to me why Jonah immediately kicked into "protect Adam" mode the day of Rebecca's death, when he urgently called Paul Pfingst. PP essentially dropped whatever he was doing to attend to Jonah's request to vigorously protect Adam from questioning, and PP even showed up at the death scene inside the crime tape- many hours before the ME arrived. (Huge conflict of interest, IMO.) Jonah didn't hire PP to protect himself-- he hired PP for Adam's interests. That speaks volumes to me about what Jonah's concerns were that day. And I think Jonah did not answer that strange text from Adam on purpose-- Jonah knew how odd it was to get a text like that, IMO.

IMO, Adam could be vulnerable to being manipulated by someone with Dina's background in social skills training for people with autism. Jonah may have suspected this as well. Particularly in a crisis or emergency situation, or a murder.

And AS has always seemed to be very "scripted" when he has been discussing Rebecca's hanging-- he is very vague and wishy washy about EVERYTHING except his "certainty" that Rebecca "hung herself". That alone is VERY odd and suspicious, IMO. From the very first 911 call, he is the one who started the "hung herself" narrative.

Adam has never sought out the media. He has been pretty much entirely silent since Rebecca's death. He had no ax to grind with Rebecca. But Dina most certainly did. IMO.

time
07-26-2013, 01:54 PM
Does anyone have a copy of the response by Adam's boss after this first became big news ( in 2011 ). As I recall, Adam not only did not tell anyone where he was going when he flew to Spreckels, he actually lied about it. TIA



Adam Shacknai lives in an apartment in Midtown Memphis. His leasing agent neighbor, Robert Sanders, said he last saw him a few days ago.

"He said that he was going to have to go back out on the tugboat company he works for," said Sanders.This doesn't scream lying to me about anything. It very well could have been he was set to go back out on the tugboat and then the accident occurred. I don't think we have ever heard from the tugboat company or his boss?

http://www.wmctv.com/story/15091608/memphian-discovers-body-in-brothers-san-diego-mansion

time
07-26-2013, 02:05 PM
It's difficult to make an assessment about someone from a few brief comments made under the stress of a polygraph and a gruesome death scene. It's best to have a complete picture of someone's functioning when making assessments about their interpersonal interactions, language, syntax, etc. <respectfully snipped>

I agree, I think Adam could be autistic or something similar because of the odd bluntness and honesty and confusion behind some of the answers - like he doesn't seem to know it's not very socially acceptable. It seems to fit with some of his behavior and as you say, he would be vulnerable. Maybe you are right, that someone helped him 'script' some parts of his responses.

STS-135
07-26-2013, 04:23 PM
BBM - The nights in question, Tuesday night into Wednesday morning. Nina is the person who alleged in her phone interview DS and JS were sharing a room at the Ronald McDonald House, not a hotel. SDSO has never stated this. Although SDSO in their first press conference led the public to believe both DS and JS were at Max's bedside all night via video surveillance, it changed in their second press conference when questioned further by a reporter. During the investigation LE requested surveillance video from Rady's hospital. The did not find Dina on the surveillance video, but did capture Jonah. SDSO stated they were able to narrow down Dina's location from her cellphone triangulation. In SW 11-165 Jonah told detectives he went to the RMH around 1:00am.

From 11/17 press conference -

GORE:
I forgot what the question was.

REPORTER:
Dina on surveillance tape.

GORE:
[Peruses document for 20 seconds] We don’t have her on surveillance tape. Her position was determined through GPS triangulation on her cell phone, which put her in the vicinity of Rady's Children's Hospital.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/index.html


You're right, it was a room at Ronald's, not a hotel. But I seem to recall that it was actually even closer to the hospital than the hotel he stayed at the first night. Also seem to recall, or maybe I just read it again in Ann Rule's book these last few days, that Dina was nowhere to be seen on any of the hospital's surveillance videos either. (!)

If LE in fact used "triangulation", which I strongly doubt because to my knowledge both network and phone based triangulation as well as A-GPS can only be done in real time, then LE would've known the exact location of the phone that night, information the Zahau family could use in their line of questioning during the depositions to come if they have it.

On the other hand, if they merely narrowed it down to the nearest cell repeater, and called that triangulation, as evidenced by the fact that the best statement they can make is that it was "in the vicinity of the hospital", then Gore is either an idiot or a very smart man with reason to believe that most Americans wouldn't even know what triangulation really means.

We are all too accustomed to seeing reports of a suspects travels up/down certain roads and believe that came from after-the-fact triangulation. Wrong! That would have been based on merely drawing a line from nearest-repeater to nearest-repeater as the suspect moved along - usually providing enough information to also trace a street route. But that is not triangulation - and surely an ex-FBI man knew that at the time he used the term.

LE cannot possibly prove Dina's exact whereabouts, would have not been able to find contradictions in her statements as to her whereabouts throughout the night if they'd even tried (!), and that would make it much harder to get additional information from her during the depositions.

Here is a really short and well-written, even illustrated, article on how triangulation really works:

http://wrongfulconvictionsblog.org/2012/06/01/cell-tower-triangulation-how-it-works/

STS-135
07-26-2013, 05:21 PM
Wow... watch carefully.... when AS answers NO.. he shakes his head yes....

then at the end... do you think she committed suicide.. he says YES and shakes his head no...

Wow....


When he 's describing how he ran into the house to get a knife to cut her down, he 's also shaking his head "no ". It will be interesting if we get to see the entire interview.

I strongly disagree with both of the statements above. Adam wasn't shaking his head. One second he's moving his head forward as his body language actually emphasizes the word "no". The video then jumps to a point much later in time when his head is already in a different position. It happens again each time. And when he's shaking his head in regards to running into the house, please keep in mind that by then he's already been under questioning for at least an hour and probably already answered the exact same questions twice if not three time. In all fairness to Adam, I would've probably have also been shaking my head in frustration by then.

For me the only two AH HA moments in such a short video excerpt, unlikely to prove truly representative of the full length two-hour video, are when he states matter-of-factly that he believes it to be a suicide and not remembering anything about Rebecca being tied. He seems desperate to convince LE that it was a suicide, to the extent of readily agreeing to take the poly because he is such a can-do kind-of-guy, yet claims that he can't even remember if Rebecca was bound.

And why does he keep fidgeting in the chair so much, did he keep forgetting that he probably put his keys or other sharp objects in his back pockets to defeat the poly?

Where's the 'puke' smiley when you need it?!...

IQuestion
07-26-2013, 05:23 PM
You're right, it was a room at Ronald's, not a hotel. But I seem to recall that it was actually even closer to the hospital than the hotel he stayed at the first night. Also seem to recall, or maybe I just read it again in Ann Rule's book these last few days, that Dina was nowhere to be seen on any of the hospital's surveillance videos either. (!)

If LE in fact used "triangulation", which I strongly doubt because to my knowledge both network and phone based triangulation as well as A-GPS can only be done in real time, then LE would've known the exact location of the phone that night, information the Zahau family could use in their line of questioning during the depositions to come if they have it.

On the other hand, if they merely narrowed it down to the nearest cell repeater, and called that triangulation, as evidenced by the fact that the best statement they can make is that it was "in the vicinity of the hospital", then Gore is either an idiot or a very smart man with reason to believe that most Americans wouldn't even know what triangulation really means. :floorlaugh: 110% agreeWe are all too accustomed to seeing reports of a suspects travels up/down certain roads and believe that came from after-the-fact triangulation. Wrong! That would have been based on merely drawing a line from nearest-repeater to nearest-repeater as the suspect moved along - usually providing enough information to also trace a street route. But that is not triangulation - and
LE cannot possibly prove Dina's exact whereabouts, would have not been able to find contradictions in her statements as to her whereabouts throughout the night if they'd even tried (!), and that would make it much harder to get additional information from her during the depositions. WOW! Double wow!Here is a really short and well-written, even illustrated, article on how triangulation really works:

http://wrongfulconvictionsblog.org/2012/06/01/cell-tower-triangulation-how-it-works/

Thank you STS-135! Fascinating information. You just keep reading Ann Rule's book and make notes on anything that you find curious...FRESH EYES never hurt an investigation. (Many posters have got your six and willing to help you with research....so just ask.)

Thirty-plus years ago, a quadrapalegic woman, former ski champion (YES HER!) reminded me it was so much easier to "just ask for help with the small stuff" so that you had time to accomplish more important goals. (Of course ya'll know that is my excuse for never learning how to post a picture...it is so much easier to ask someone else to help me.:blushing:)

STS-135
07-26-2013, 05:29 PM
Oops, posted this on wrong thread, so have moved it here... Apologies.
Not easy to discern certain AS' words at times. His thoughts often jump nonsensically. All corrections welcome:

News 8 Exclusive - The polygraph examination of Adam Shacknai
http://www.cbs8.com/story/22221589/n...nttype=generic

Date: 7/13/2011
Time video begins: 7:33:17PM

AS: I think.. I got to reach her and realized I wasn't going to be able to get her off without a knife. You know I tried -- I realized -- quite quickly. You know I realized this thing will happen like this. I went around the back into the house which the door was open. I got a knife with the butcher block thing -- came back out -- cut her down -- and tried called 9-1-1 shortly thereafter -- if not before.

PR: OK. Did you at any point think she was alive?

AS: I'm well.. you know. Call me a can-do person or something -- but -- probably not. But I thought, how would I answer -- for this if I didn't try something. I'm a responsible person.

PR: OK. Tried some CPR?

AS: Yeah

PR: OK. Have you been trained in that? With the boat stuff?

AS: Years and years ago. Not enough to amount to anything.

PR: OK. So, tried some CPR. Now -- and so -- was there anything else unusual? What kind of chain (unintelligible?) was it, like a bed sheet or what?

AS: It was a ******ing rope, man. Red rope. Unless my memory is failing me, you know, something -- it wasn't just something that you would be laying around, somewhere. I wouldn't think.

PR: Alright. So could you tell whether it was a material or something?

AS: Kinda like a Kevlar, synthetic

PR: OK. Like nylon...

AS: Yeah

PR: Or something like that?

PR: OK, and -- so what, there were no shoes, not a stitch on?

AS: Not that I recall

PR: So her hands were hanging down by her side then?

AS: I don't know because here's the thing. I don't remember about her hands. Because after I cut her down I went to take her pulse -- you know -- at some point, which I didn't even do at first. I remember having to get something out of the way -- of her hands -- and that's why I've been asking these detectives and stuff if she was tied up or what. I mean I'm like, I'm kind of in all a blur [cross talk]...

PR: Blur yeah.

AS: You know but -- but I remember having to move something to try to get her pulse out of the way -- you know very much [cross talk]

PR: You don't remember anything unusual?

AS: I don't remember that, but I just -- I fear -- I hope to God she wasn't tied up but -- and again -- I asked the detectives there -- you know -- I don't recall.

PR: Now as far as the CPR. You did the chest compressions and you did blow in her mouth, in her nose?

AS: I got the -- once I got 9-1-1 on the line, I went ahead and blew in her mouth.

PR: OK. And her mouth was open and clear and everything?

AS: I didn't even do all that at first. I should have. I didn't. I didn't do that tilt. I think they said tilt the head back and do that. I didn't do any of that stuff.

PR: OK

AS: I just put my mouth over hers and said **** it, it's my brother's girlfriend and I'll do it. And I did it.

PR: And there was no tape across her mouth or anything like this?

AS: No. There was a ******ing gag in her mouth though.

PR: A gag in her mouth?

AS: Yeah

PR: What was that?

AS: Something, yeah. I had to pull something out of her ****ing mouth. It was like a blue scarf.

[time stamp jumps from 7:36:54PM to 7:40:29PM]

PR: Does it seem to you like it's a suicide then at that point?

AS: YES ABSOLUTELY [AS sits forward in chair, then leans back]

PR: OK, and what makes you think that?

AS: It's just what crossed my mind you know -- just because -- I thought she was THERE, when Max got hurt,supposedly. UM UM -- you know maybe she just can't LIVE with it, you know. I've never been in that situation. I'm not going to -- I can't say that I could, especially if it was someone else's kid, you know.

PR: Did she seem suicidal or anything like that?

AS: No. I don't get -- you know, I mean -- you just don't ever think of that.

[time stamp jumps from 7:40:29PM to 8:11:49PM]

PR: Look straight ahead listen and concentrate on each question.

AS: OK

PR: Only respond yes or no

AS: OK

PR: But the most important thing of all is what?

AS: Be honest?

PR: That's it. Be honest, don't lie, be honest in your answers [unintelligible]

PR: Regarding the death of Rebecca, do you know for sure if anyone did anything to hurt her that resulted in her death?

AS: No

PR: Regarding the death of Rebecca, did you yourself do anything to her that resulted in her death?

AS: No

PR: Regarding the death of Rebecca, were you in that guest room that she was found hanging from at any time during the night?

AS: No

[time stamp jumps from 8:22:47PM to 8:40:19PM]

PR: These are hard tests to do when you're this close to what's going on here like you said...

AS: Yeah

PR: Because it's hard to get rid of that emotional factor

AS: Right

PR: Um, and you could have done a whole lot worse on the test (AS shakes head). And you could have done a whole lot better too.

AS: (makes a psshoo sound - snaps finger)

PR: Based on what I've got here -- we're kind of in the inconclusive range. But it clearly doesn't bother me that much, because I think that if you were (unintelligible) that close, there is no way I could prevent you from giving me SOME reaction. But as far as being involved in it, I am not INCLINED to believe that. Um, but you're definitely not flunking my test, so that's kinda -- somewhat of a good thing.

[Time stamp jumps from 8:41:44PM to 8:44:44PM]

PR: Appreciate your cooperation. I know it's a tough thing to do and certainly appreciate you working with us on this. Wasn't so bad, was it?

AS: It was.

PR: It wasn't as bad as you thought it was going to be though?

AS: It was.

PR: It was?

AS: Yeah.

[Time stamp ends 8:44:56PM]

-----------------------------

There were 10 questions. The video only includes 3 of them. Within the first 12 hours Rebecca's death was being investigated as a homicide. AS discovered her body, thus any investigation would consider him a POI. Why is Mr Redden so darn appreciative and accommodating to AS?! Will comment more on this under separate comment.

ETA: http://www.cbs8.com/story/22221589/news-8-exclusive-the-polygraph-exam-of-adam-shacknai

His statements in bold red font above are not necessarily AH HA moments IMHO, but highly questionable to say the least. Not yours, Carioca. :floorlaugh:

STS-135
07-26-2013, 05:45 PM
...........................

STS-135
07-26-2013, 06:58 PM
I would like to look at this strange case from the point of view of it being a suicide, as it was finally ruled to be.

It is extremely rare for a suicide to die naked and bound in such a public way. But it does happen. I remember the case of Bill Sparkman, who's suicide perplexed many as it at first seemed a homicide for sure. He was found bound to a tree, hands and feet duct taped, his mouth covered with duct tape, and naked except for his socks. The word "FED" was scrawled on his chest (he was a US Government census taker). He staged his death to look like a homicide so his life insurance payoff would pay to his son, which would not happen if it was ruled a suicide.

Perhaps RZ staged her own suicide to look like a homicide. Perhaps she thought her "good" life was over after the accident, that she would be moved out of the mansion,and out of her boyfriend's life, or be blamed for the accident herself. Who knows what thoughts she had during those last dark hours of her life?

Re: AS's LDT - two things come to mind. First, since he found the body, LE would look long and hard at him as a POI in this bizarre case. Many good defense lawyers would counsel a client to not take a LTD right away! They are unreliable and subject to interpretation and not admissible in court.

Re: AS's jumping on the "suicide" bandwagon so fast. Let's look at the alternative for him: if it was not suicide, then it was a murder; if a murder then that would require LE to look at him, his brother, and everyone in his family circle as possible perpetrators. He went into overdrive to protect his family, as an almost automatic response. It's like asking a Mom if they think their son committed a murder, the first instinct is to say "NO! He wouldn't do that!" Family self preservation response.

This is such a bizarre case, I frankly do not know what to believe for sure.


Wow! Until I read your post I had not ever even thought about such a possibility. Great insight. Disturbing too. Do you or anyone else here know or have any reason to believe that RZ had a private life insurance policy at the time she died? (She wasn't working anymore)?

If she had a life insurance policy that included such a clause, or one that she had only recently acquired and was thus still subject to such a clause (many policies will pay even in the event of suicide but only after X amount of time), it would make me very, very sad if the Zahau family was not completely honest and forthcoming about it.

If she did have a policy, and such info has just not yet been disclosed by LE nor is likely to ever be disclosed by the Zahau family, it could explain (but not in and of itself justify) why LE so quickly arrived at the conclusion that it was suicide.

Did they think she might've sloppily (If we believe no other fingerprints or DNA was recovered.) tried to make it look like murder only so that her family would be able to collect? Or was the policy perhaps in Jonah's name, especially if purchased by Jonah, and that was her way to make reparations to Jonah for allowing his son to die while under her care and watch - and at the same time put Dina in jail?

Didn't Rebecca (and Jonah) practically support her parents and sister/daughter by the time she died? And didn't she also understandably have strong reasons to be mad-as-heck at Dina for interfering so much in her life with Jonah?

If RZ then learned that not only were they both ignoring her those last two days, but now they were both even staying in the same hotel room, could she have tried to pin it on Dina by painting that seemingly tell-tale sign on the door? And on her brother-in-law with the use of the rat-tail stopper knots to bind her arms and legs?

Rebecca wasn't only beautiful and sweet. She was apparently also quite intelligent herself as evidenced by a number of things I've read, some new at least to me - like the quite beautiful and eloquent but sad musings in her journal entries as quoted by Ann Rule.

My sincere apologies to those who might be offended by this post. My intention is only to remain as objective as I possibly can, in spite of strongly believing that it was murder; and, to be able to do so, particularly because I so strongly still believe that it was murder, I must at least entertain all other possibilities too - just like we'd all want LE to do themselves.

STS-135
07-26-2013, 07:16 PM
BBM

Why would Becky be out and about watering the garden? It is my understanding the mansion has/had a sprinkler system.
My wife and I water our flower beds because they were added after the sprinkler system was installed and our potted plants because we are too cheap and lazy to install an irrigation system - and also because we enjoy and find very relaxing the time we spend outside the house watering with a glass of wine in our hand, chatting with neighbors, and generally just enjoying a cool ocean breeze - especially after a long hot summer day. Or maybe she was just out for a walk on the beach across the street and had just returned home to take a shower and go to sleep.

To be perfectly frank, I haven't really spent any time even thinking about the dirt on her feet, let alone researching it. Would you like to please help me do that? Would she have to cross a dirt area when returning from the beach, for example? Were there any dirt areas she could have crossed while walking around the house or in the yard? Or, and I'm gonna really go out on a limb here, could she have been burying something if she in fact committed suicide? Or any dirt areas she would've had to cross if running away from AS if he tried to sexually or otherwise assault her in the guest house?

IMHO the best thing to do is to just let your imagination run wild, ask yourself all the questions you possibly can, even if they don't seem to make any sense at all, then do your absolute best to answer each of them as honestly as you can and in as simple a way as possible. Good luck. Let me know if I can help in some way. Private message would be fine too if you just want to compare notes or fully develop new ideas.

STS-135
07-26-2013, 07:51 PM
Not only that but it was AFTER 8pm at night on Tuesday. Why would anyone be watering plants in the middle of the night even if they didn't have a sprinkler system? That makes NO sense. To me, it is obvious someone's trying to throw curve balls and everything including the kitchen sink into the mix in order to obfuscate the facts and confuse peeps who are not familiar with the evidence in this case. I also believe this person is attempting to mock and taunt some gullible peeps. All IMO.
To you and the team at large, please keep in mind, as I've already posted before, that I am practically completely new to Rebecca's case, having spent a comparatively insignificant amount of time even trying to stay current on the case when it happened two years ago. I have only recently made a commitment, as surely I have already demonstrated by now, to spend as much time as I possibly can coming up to speed and shedding light where I can. Isn't that why we are all here, to analyze and discuss all the facts, all the evidence known to us, to look for more clues, regardless of where it might lead?

If you can't handle the fear of discovering that the truth might not be what any of us on Rebecca's board want it to be, nor apparently the heavy burden of doing anything meaningful to assist in some small way, then please just put me on ignore. I've been and will continue to work my a$$ off to collaboratively find that one small clue we (or should I say you?) might've all missed these last two years. It is up to you whether you want to be a part of the team or work against it instigating discord with your childish accusations.

STS-135
07-26-2013, 08:06 PM
"Where you came and got the kid the other day"
"Got a girl, hung herself."

Adam was in a panicky state when he made the 911 call. Perhaps that accounts for his wording. When I say the words in those 2 sentences, I feel a complete emotional disconnect
from both of those human beings. Their humanity disappears. I find it interesting if nothing else.

Adam TEXTS Jonah after 'finding' Rebecca. Jonah does not return the communication. Wow.

Dina is making a lot of noise. It is easy to focus mostly on her. When I look at the bare bones/ basic facts about Adam, I am suspicious about why he flew there in the first place.
I am keeping an open mind about it. JMO

According to Ann Rule's book and various other sources, they spoke on the phone - twice, if I recall correctly. Where did the aforementioned theory originate? If you can please point me to it, I'd really appreciate it.

defense101
07-26-2013, 08:38 PM
I have been here from the beginning and even though may have speculated on AS's part in this, after taking time out and listening to his 911 call don't feel he had anything to do with this and I think he was just thrown into this unsuspectingly. I wouldn't quote Ann Rule as an expert on this as there were factually wrong things in her book. To be honest I don't know what to make of his interview, I think if we saw the whole thing it would make all the difference in the world, but in this case we only get bits and pieces and I find it hard to find him involved, now the twin sisters that's a different story. IMO

STS-135
07-26-2013, 08:44 PM
It's difficult to make an assessment about someone from a few brief comments made under the stress of a polygraph and a gruesome death scene. It's best to have a complete picture of someone's functioning when making assessments about their interpersonal interactions, language, syntax, etc.

Having said this, I (and many others) agree that at a minimum, AS's public statements and polygraph interactions are quite odd-- EVEN in the face of such a stressful situation. I have personally wondered if AS has some type of emotional/ behavioral disability (high functioning) such as being on the autism spectrum. I wonder how large the crew is on his tugboat job, and how much he has to interact in that environment. He may have gravitated to a type of job where he doesn't have to have much interaction with others, due to his odd personality and interactive habits. Just speculation.

All of his comments, including the blunt admission about his masturbation activities, and the comments to LE about his "bedside manner", demonstrate a rather flat, socially inappropriate, and disconnected pattern of interaction, IMO. His syntax is peculiar. He may communicate more appropriately in less stressful situations, and deteriorate to this flat and disconnected inappropriate pattern under stress. I personally cannot attribute this odd pattern of interaction to Ambien use.

One of the things that nags at me when I think of AS and something like the possibility high functioning autism, or some other Axis II disorder, is the potential for someone like this to be manipulated by others. Even very odd people can be "vulnerable adults". And when I think of Dina's and Jonah's involvement and interest with the autism population and therapy programs, I wonder if AS fits into that interest somewhere. It also would make sense to me why Jonah immediately kicked into "protect Adam" mode the day of Rebecca's death, when he urgently called Paul Pfingst. PP essentially dropped whatever he was doing to attend to Jonah's request to vigorously protect Adam from questioning, and PP even showed up at the death scene inside the crime tape- many hours before the ME arrived. (Huge conflict of interest, IMO.) Jonah didn't hire PP to protect himself-- he hired PP for Adam's interests. That speaks volumes to me about what Jonah's concerns were that day. And I think Jonah did not answer that strange text from Adam on purpose-- Jonah knew how odd it was to get a text like that, IMO.

IMO, Adam could be vulnerable to being manipulated by someone with Dina's background in social skills training for people with autism. Jonah may have suspected this as well. Particularly in a crisis or emergency situation, or a murder.

And AS has always seemed to be very "scripted" when he has been discussing Rebecca's hanging-- he is very vague and wishy washy about EVERYTHING except his "certainty" that Rebecca "hung herself". That alone is VERY odd and suspicious, IMO. From the very first 911 call, he is the one who started the "hung herself" narrative.

Adam has never sought out the media. He has been pretty much entirely silent since Rebecca's death. He had no ax to grind with Rebecca. But Dina most certainly did. IMO.

The THANKS button alone would not do your professional opinion justice.

While reading your post I remembered having read a reference somewhere, no idea where or how long ago, to the effect that Maxie might've suffered from some form of autism. Do such disorders run in families? Is it possible that, if Maxie suffered such a disability, it could've in fact played a role in his accident? And, if the answer to that is 'yes, do you care and have the time to please speculate as to how?

If this has already been asked and/or discussed before, please just point me in the right direction because I sure don't want to waste your valuable time.

AND THANK YOU AGAIN!

defense101
07-26-2013, 08:56 PM
sts135 are you sure you are new here? Why do I remember you?

STS-135
07-26-2013, 10:08 PM
Thank you STS-135! Fascinating information. You just keep reading Ann Rule's book and make notes on anything that you find curious...FRESH EYES never hurt an investigation. (Many posters have got your six and willing to help you with research....so just ask.)

Thirty-plus years ago, a quadrapalegic woman, former ski champion (YES HER!) reminded me it was so much easier to "just ask for help with the small stuff" so that you had time to accomplish more important goals. (Of course ya'll know that is my excuse for never learning how to post a picture...it is so much easier to ask someone else to help me.:blushing:)

DAMN IT, iQuestion, you've made a grown man cry. If only I'd known you then... Then again, it probably would not have made a difference because I lacked the backbone and persistence of the Zahau family... Yes, you are absolutely right, we need to work on this case together - or dare I say both cases?

We need to get organized. We need to list and prioritize all the red flags, all the clues, be it inconsistencies or just odd behavior. Learn from all the experts. Help them apply their knowledge. Collectively and efficiently look for answers, in a methodical and thorough fashion. And, then, if and only if and when the team agrees that we might be on to something; and that it's been already fully developed and confirmed to a reasonable extent, share it with the Zahau family and/or their legal team. If we are not willing to do all of the above, and no doubt much more that I've missed and the experts can please point out, then why even be here? Either we want to make a real difference or we are indeed just gloating. Are we no better than all them A$$H013S who slow down just to catch a glimpse of the victims?!

On the other hand, my wife is probably right, it's doubtful that the Zahaus and/or their legal team would have the time or even the inclination to truly examine any information we provide for themselves. Given the notoriety of the case, they must no doubt be already bored out of their minds with the myriad so-called tips they've likely already received from quacks the like of - never mind, in addition to all of the above, Rebecca and Maxie both also need us all to please, please remain civil.

Back to the case(s), my wife's other concern is as follows: Would I (and I really do mean 'we' but she is of course only talking to me!) potentially be only wasting their valuable time and precious few resources pursuing any so-called leads we might be able to provide - if any?! And, even if they did, could I (we) not potentially inadvertently lead them astray somehow if they do research and also end up erroneously believing what we provide?

These are not possibilities to be taken lightly. The first two (possible lack of interest and wasting resources) I had already discussed with my wife several times these last few days. But I had not given any thought to the third one (inadvertently leading them astray) until I read Bourne's post. At least in that regards, he does have a very valid point. It does seem a bit arrogant on my (our too?!) part(s) to believe that I (we) can provide any help at all, or at least help that they surely must already have. Maybe I better take him off ignore...

Betty P
07-26-2013, 10:31 PM
STS -135, We 've already discussed many of these theories here. You may want to go back and read some of the discussions in previous threads.

If RZ had any kind of life insurance, SDSO would have mentioned that fact, sinces it would have helped their theory of suicide as the COD. SDSO had no reason to hide any information that might put RZ in a bad light.

STS-135
07-26-2013, 11:13 PM
TO WEBSLEUTHS ADMINS/MODERATORS: Please consider requiring that all new-comers first read literally thousands of posts spread across dozens of threads over two years, before we are allowed to post to this or any forum. BTW, while I have your attention, can you please point me to the USELESS button?

STS-135
07-26-2013, 11:30 PM
STS -135, We 've already discussed many of these theories here. You may want to go back and read some of the discussions in previous threads.

If RZ had any kind of life insurance, SDSO would have mentioned that fact, sinces it would have helped their theory of suicide as the COD. SDSO had no reason to hide any information that might put RZ in a bad light.

I have to believe that you either never read or already forgot the arrogant and outright threatening letter that wannabe cop Gore sent the Zahau family - or was it their attorney?

Please try searching all those same threads you referred me to earlier using an explicit query like "letter and Gore". If it doesn't return any valid results, then try using only the term "letter". If that returns far more posts than you wanted to have to read, then try looking only at the posts with file attachments.

As an alternative, of course, I personally wouldn't see anything wrong with just posting your request for assistance here to save time. Surely a number of self-respecting sleuths out there either have the letter handy or saved the URL to their case files. Or should we all just ignore your request and refer you to all them threads and wait for you to come back next year? You decide.

justice be served
07-27-2013, 01:34 AM
To you and the team at large, please keep in mind, as I've already posted before, that I am practically completely new to Rebecca's case, having spent a comparatively insignificant amount of time even trying to stay current on the case when it happened two years ago. I have only recently made a commitment, as surely I have already demonstrated by now, to spend as much time as I possibly can coming up to speed and shedding light where I can. Isn't that why we are all here, to analyze and discuss all the facts, all the evidence known to us, to look for more clues, regardless of where it might lead?

If you can't handle the fear of discovering that the truth might not be what any of us on Rebecca's board want it to be, nor apparently the heavy burden of doing anything meaningful to assist in some small way, then please just put me on ignore. I've been and will continue to work my a$$ off to collaboratively find that one small clue we (or should I say you?) might've all missed these last two years. It is up to you whether you want to be a part of the team or work against it instigating discord with your childish accusations.

Frankly speaking, there are many clues (or facts) that have been enumerated on various lists on this forum over the last two years. The problem is that SDSO stonewalled the questioning by the Zahau family repeatedly when they brought up those many clues/facts. And having followed this myself for two years, THAT is the problem with this non-investigation. Seems that San Diego has more dirty issues with its government bureaus than just the Mayor's office. It sickens me.

K_Z
07-27-2013, 02:23 AM
The THANKS button alone would not do your professional opinion justice.

While reading your post I remembered having read a reference somewhere, no idea where or how long ago, to the effect that Maxie might've suffered from some form of autism.

(Snipped for relevance.)

I don't want to get off topic on the Adam Shacknai thread, but I'll respond to your question.

I have read that speculation as well, but I personally don't believe Max displayed any evidence of autism from what has been shared about him. He was, from all indications, a very bright, loving, active, little boy, and displayed precocious soccer ability. Dina and Jonah took him everywhere-- including, as Dina has boasted, to the floor of the stock exchange. No one has reported inappropriate social interactions from him-- and he played soccer with kids a year older than he was. That requires at least appropriate social skills. He was in regular classes at an exclusive private school-- typically small private schools cannot provide the resources that autistic and EBD children require. It seems very unlikely that Max was on the autism spectrum, IMO.

It would seem, from Dina's descriptions, and others, that he was accustomed to rough and tumble play (like many, if not most 6 yo boys), and Dina has said that it was common for "outside" toys to be all over inside of her home, as they were in the Coronado home. It appears that he was allowed to ride an outdoor scooter inside the Coronado home upstairs, with the knowledge and consent of the adults (Jonah, in particular). I think it's possible that he was a very indulged child, with fairly lax parenting and safety rules that may have contributed to his very sad and unfortunate accident. I think it's also possible other kids were involved or knew what happened with his fall--- and it's just as possible he fell alone doing whatever he was doing. I don't think anyone tried to intentionally hurt him. I think that is beyond preposterous.

IQuestion
07-27-2013, 03:16 AM
Because that's what most women would do when about to take a shower. Why would she also need to take off her rubber bracelets? If she was out and about watering the garden that hot, brightly lit (almost a full moon with 98% illumination) summer evening, taking a shower when finished is to me perfectly reasonable and would also explain the mud on her feet.

If she took a shower, SHE WOULD NOT HAVE MUD ON HER FEET! And, even if she did do the gardening, SHE WOULDN'T DO IT BAREFOOT. And, if she did have "muddy feet", why aren't there muddy "bare" foot prints across the kitchen floor?

RZ's feet were, IMO, muddied when she was trying to get away. Also, women do not take off their earrings and rings to take a shower. As for the black plastic "Bionic band" on her wrist, would it surprise anyone to know JS also wears the SAME band on his wrist? I have seen photos with it on his wrist with RZ and MS. The black Bionic band, btw, is distributed nationwide by a man who has his business in Phoenix! (I have researched lots and lots, but tend not to share all of it....always keeping little details in a notebook, just in case the subject comes up. And, NOW the subject came up.)

Some people "mock" or ridicule individuals who purchase those magnetic bands. I think the person who kept it on RZ's wrist, left them on to "mock & riducule the wearer(s). Just as I have felt the $300+ "sushi" knives left in the room were also chosen to "mock and ridicule." (Check out the prices on the Mako knives....more like something one might receive as a high-end wedding gift. hmmm)

Do I think the killer was sending/leaving lots of sick clues?...you betcha!

I'm trying very hard to organize my thoughts...and I take "no offense" to being told I write in "code.":blushing: It is my personal failing, and I want more than anything for my posts to be thought provoking...not confusiing. Nite to all of you dear posters. I think you are so smart, so caring and only want to add to the collective process. Not take anything away. IQ

STS-135
07-27-2013, 04:02 AM
If she took a shower, SHE WOULD NOT HAVE MUD ON HER FEET! And, even if she did do the gardening, SHE WOULDN'T DO IT BAREFOOT. And, if she did have "muddy feet", why aren't there muddy "bare" foot prints across the kitchen floor?

RZ's feet were, IMO, muddied when she was trying to get away. Also, women do not take off their earrings and rings to take a shower. As for the black plastic "Bionic band" on her wrist, would it surprise anyone to know JS also wears the SAME band on his wrist? I have seen photos with it on his wrist with RZ and MS. The black Bionic band, btw, is distributed nationwide by a man who has his business in Phoenix! (I have researched lots and lots, but tend not to share all of it....always keeping little details in a notebook, just in case the subject comes up. And, NOW the subject came up.)

Some people "mock" or ridicule individuals who purchase those magnetic bands. I think the person who kept it on RZ's wrist, left them on to "mock & riducule the wearer(s). Just as I have felt the $300+ "sushi" knives left in the room were also chosen to "mock and ridicule." (Check out the prices on the Mako knives....more like something one might receive as a high-end wedding gift. hmmm)

Do I think the killer was sending/leaving lots of sick clues?...you betcha!

I'm trying very hard to organize my thoughts...and I take "no offense" to being told I write in "code.":blushing: It is my personal failing, and I want more than anything for my posts to be thought provoking...not confusiing. Nite to all of you dear posters. I think you are so smart, so caring and only want to add to the collective process. Not take anything away. IQ

What if she'd just barely made it into the bathroom as Dina walked in on her? That would explain why the mud was there, no? I often work in my garden barefooted, don't wear gloves, or dust masks either, I like the feel of the soil against the soles of my feet, the smell of the plants and flowers, etc. As for the lack of fooprints in the kitchen, she woud've no doubt wiped her feet before entering the house, which might explain why the mud is more visible around the edges of her soles.

I'm not saying that's how it went down, only that I still don't see why it would not be possible that she too walked barefooted as she tended to the garden. It was apparently a beautiful summer evening with a moon only one day short of a full moon (98% illumination); I can easily see me out there watering some plants or otherwise tending to them, while I dring some wine and unwind - even after dark, in fact, long after dark.

Heck, we have a neighbor who prefers to do his own lawn and, do you care to guess when he normally does it? Anywhere from around 9 PM when he normally gets home all the way up until on rare occasions closer to midnight. I am well aware that it probably sounds like BS and you might think that I'm making it up; but, no, that's exactly what he does. And, to my knowledge, no one in the neighborhood has ever complained - he's just such a nice guy (otherwise).

But back to the case, why do we all seem to believe that it was dry mud anyway? Only because LE said it? Really, I mean, really?!... If it's been discussed already, somebody please cut me a break and tell me where. But please don't insult me by simply reminding me of all the old threads. By where I mean the actual posts, or approximate dates, because the search capabilities on this site are HORRIBLE, practically useless.

No results, no results, no results, even after having already verified that such posts do in fact exist by manually and very inefficiently searching them. And why must we wait 15 seconds between searches? I need to be able to do at least five or more searches in 15 seconds as I refine my queries, not one every 15 seconds. I'm having better luck finding posts on this site using Google. Any Websleuths SYS ADMINS reading this? Please don't give me an answer, just lift the 15 second limiter ASAP, or at least please reduce it to 3 to 5 seconds if you must (for reasons which, yes, of course I understand).

Now back to the case again, my wife says that is so true, she does not remove her earrings to take a shower. She does, however, remove her rings when she's wearing them (No, we've never once wore wedding bands in 30 years!). Wow, for some reason it seems as thought it might be helpful if we could make sense of those dirty feet, agree to make it the next priority?

And, on that note, iQuestion, what are you still doing at the doughnut shop apologizing for your fabulously insightful and helpful posts? Didn't you offer to help?... Well, how soon can you please get started?!...

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I'm only kidding, iQuestion. BTW, I love your alias. Yes, question indeed. Now I really have to get some sleep or I'm going to lose my sanity, or my wife. See you all again when she allows me to get near a computer again.

Good luck with the recruiting, iQuestion.

Good night, or rather, good morning everybody!

EverybodyLies
07-27-2013, 05:21 AM
I strongly disagree with both of the statements above. Adam wasn't shaking his head. One second he's moving his head forward as his body language actually emphasizes the word "no". The video then jumps to a point much later in time when his head is already in a different position. It happens again each time. And when he's shaking his head in regards to running into the house, please keep in mind that by then he's already been under questioning for at least an hour and probably already answered the exact same questions twice if not three time. In all fairness to Adam, I would've probably have also been shaking my head in frustration by then.

For me the only two AH HA moments in such a short video excerpt, unlikely to prove truly representative of the full length two-hour video, are when he states matter-of-factly that he believes it to be a suicide and not remembering anything about Rebecca being tied. He seems desperate to convince LE that it was a suicide, to the extent of readily agreeing to take the poly because he is such a can-do kind-of-guy, yet claims that he can't even remember if Rebecca was bound.

And why does he keep fidgeting in the chair so much, did he keep forgetting that he probably put his keys or other sharp objects in his back pockets to defeat the poly?

Where's the 'puke' smiley when you need it?!...

And let's not forsake the obvious crucified hero shot(s) (for all you actors out there).

screecher
07-27-2013, 09:26 AM
Not only that but it was AFTER 8pm at night on Tuesday. Why would anyone be watering plants in the middle of the night even if they didn't have a sprinkler system? That makes NO sense. To me, it is obvious someone's trying to throw curve balls and everything including the kitchen sink into the mix in order to obfuscate the facts and confuse peeps who are not familiar with the evidence in this case. I also believe this person is attempting to mock and taunt some gullible peeps. All IMO.


BBM

Yep. Interesting how Rebecca Zahau Nalepa's forum attracts and draws in the freaks. It never ceases to amaze me.

MEOW.

Gilgamesh
07-27-2013, 09:28 AM
Not only that but it was AFTER 8pm at night on Tuesday. Why would anyone be watering plants in the middle of the night even if they didn't have a sprinkler system? That makes NO sense. To me, it is obvious someone's trying to throw curve balls and everything including the kitchen sink into the mix in order to obfuscate the facts and confuse peeps who are not familiar with the evidence in this case. I also believe this person is attempting to mock and taunt some gullible peeps. All IMO.

Bourne, I totally agree with you. Red flags are waving in the wind......

Heal
07-27-2013, 11:01 AM
Very good insight. Thanks! AS has always been seeming as an odd character to me. Even odder that SDPD did not go after him, ever... Maybe JS' influence worked.

Are AS/JS' parents still alive? Where did AS/JS grow up? It should be easy to find out if AS has/had autism or any other issues (from their childhood neighbors).

Does anyone have a link to any video of AS talking about his "bedside manners" and etc? Or links to any other similar original materials/media? Thanks.


It's difficult to make an assessment about someone from a few brief comments made under the stress of a polygraph and a gruesome death scene. It's best to have a complete picture of someone's functioning when making assessments about their interpersonal interactions, language, syntax, etc.

Having said this, I (and many others) agree that at a minimum, AS's public statements and polygraph interactions are quite odd-- EVEN in the face of such a stressful situation. I have personally wondered if AS has some type of emotional/ behavioral disability (high functioning) such as being on the autism spectrum. I wonder how large the crew is on his tugboat job, and how much he has to interact in that environment. He may have gravitated to a type of job where he doesn't have to have much interaction with others, due to his odd personality and interactive habits. Just speculation.

All of his comments, including the blunt admission about his masturbation activities, and the comments to LE about his "bedside manner", demonstrate a rather flat, socially inappropriate, and disconnected pattern of interaction, IMO. His syntax is peculiar. He may communicate more appropriately in less stressful situations, and deteriorate to this flat and disconnected inappropriate pattern under stress. I personally cannot attribute this odd pattern of interaction to Ambien use.

One of the things that nags at me when I think of AS and something like the possibility high functioning autism, or some other Axis II disorder, is the potential for someone like this to be manipulated by others. Even very odd people can be "vulnerable adults". And when I think of Dina's and Jonah's involvement and interest with the autism population and therapy programs, I wonder if AS fits into that interest somewhere. It also would make sense to me why Jonah immediately kicked into "protect Adam" mode the day of Rebecca's death, when he urgently called Paul Pfingst. PP essentially dropped whatever he was doing to attend to Jonah's request to vigorously protect Adam from questioning, and PP even showed up at the death scene inside the crime tape- many hours before the ME arrived. (Huge conflict of interest, IMO.) Jonah didn't hire PP to protect himself-- he hired PP for Adam's interests. That speaks volumes to me about what Jonah's concerns were that day. And I think Jonah did not answer that strange text from Adam on purpose-- Jonah knew how odd it was to get a text like that, IMO.

IMO, Adam could be vulnerable to being manipulated by someone with Dina's background in social skills training for people with autism. Jonah may have suspected this as well. Particularly in a crisis or emergency situation, or a murder.

And AS has always seemed to be very "scripted" when he has been discussing Rebecca's hanging-- he is very vague and wishy washy about EVERYTHING except his "certainty" that Rebecca "hung herself". That alone is VERY odd and suspicious, IMO. From the very first 911 call, he is the one who started the "hung herself" narrative.

Adam has never sought out the media. He has been pretty much entirely silent since Rebecca's death. He had no ax to grind with Rebecca. But Dina most certainly did. IMO.

Mrs. Holmes
07-27-2013, 11:21 AM
My wife and I water our flower beds because they were added after the sprinkler system was installed and our potted plants because we are too cheap and lazy to install an irrigation system - and also because we enjoy and find very relaxing the time we spend outside the house watering with a glass of wine in our hand, chatting with neighbors, and generally just enjoying a cool ocean breeze - especially after a long hot summer day. Or maybe she was just out for a walk on the beach across the street and had just returned home to take a shower and go to sleep.

To be perfectly frank, I haven't really spent any time even thinking about the dirt on her feet, let alone researching it. Would you like to please help me do that? Would she have to cross a dirt area when returning from the beach, for example? Were there any dirt areas she could have crossed while walking around the house or in the yard? Or, and I'm gonna really go out on a limb here, could she have been burying something if she in fact committed suicide? Or any dirt areas she would've had to cross if running away from AS if he tried to sexually or otherwise assault her in the guest house?

IMHO the best thing to do is to just let your imagination run wild, ask yourself all the questions you possibly can, even if they don't seem to make any sense at all, then do your absolute best to answer each of them as honestly as you can and in as simple a way as possible. Good luck. Let me know if I can help in some way. Private message would be fine too if you just want to compare notes or fully develop new ideas.

The dirt on RZ's feet etc. could have gotten there when AS cut her down. We have no idea what he did with her body how he handled her. The feet could have been in the flower bed before he moved her onto the grass.

screecher
07-27-2013, 11:22 AM
Heal, I think they grew up on the east coast. In NYS, I believe. I remember reading JS went to and graduated from Colgate University, also in NYS. AS...I wanna say also went and graduated from college. I don't think it was in NYS, but don't remember where he went.

His father is Gideon Shacknai. Mother is Selma Shacknai, died in May 1999. Gideon has remarried, can't remember her name. I think they still live in NYS, a bit north of NYC.

EverybodyLies
07-27-2013, 12:18 PM
Heal, I think they grew up on the east coast. In NYS, I believe. I remember reading JS went to and graduated from Colgate University, also in NYS. AS...I wanna say also went and graduated from college. I don't think it was in NYS, but don't remember where he went.

B.S. degree from Colgate University and a J.D. from Georgetown University Law Center.

Inparadise
07-27-2013, 01:14 PM
B.S. degree from Colgate University and a J.D. from Georgetown University Law Center.

AS attended George Washington university in DC.

EverybodyLies
07-27-2013, 01:19 PM
AS attended George Washington university in DC.

Sorry about that, I was referring to JS and failed to specify that. Thanks for catching that.

screecher
07-27-2013, 02:29 PM
Thanks Inparadise and EverybodyLies.

If I'm not mistaken, both JS and AS were 'regular' students, blended well with the student body. I think their mother was a teacher and a social worker. Their father...don't have a clue what he is/was all about.

Perhaps later I'll google him.

By all accounts, they seemed like a 'regular' middle class kind of family.

I've read in a couple different places it was Mr. Gideon Shacknai who called Adam to go be with brother Jonah.

Inparadise
07-27-2013, 03:05 PM
Sorry about that, I was referring to JS and failed to specify that. Thanks for catching that.

JS did graduate from Colgate, and from Georgetown University Law School.....he was in the "night" program, as he worked as a congressional aide during the day.

time
07-27-2013, 03:08 PM
Bourne, I totally agree with you. Red flags are waving in the wind......

Agree. And, I'm having trouble reading through all the off topic commenting that is not helping with anything, this is a chit chat board so :please:folks stay on topic.

inthedark14
07-27-2013, 03:37 PM
BBM

Yep. Interesting how Rebecca Zahau Nalepa's forum attracts and draws in the freaks. It never ceases to amaze me.

MEOW. :giggle:


Bourne, I totally agree with you. Red flags are waving in the wind...... :seeya:

:snooty: