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SunnieRN
09-22-2011, 05:01 PM
Max's search warrants released:


http://www.cbs8.com/story/15520745/sheriff-launches-forensic-exam-of-zahaus-cell-phone-new-witnesses-accounts-reported

stilettos
09-22-2011, 05:39 PM
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15520745/sheriff-launches-forensic-exam-of-zahaus-cell-phone-new-witnesses-accounts-reported

From the comments under the article.

"Jack Trimarco -- an ex-FBI agent that ran the polygraph division for the bureau in Los Angeles -- says another lie detector test needs to be given to Adam Shacknai. For someone with Paul Redden's credentials and reputation, to say that he wasn't able to draw a conclusion, but FELT Adam Shacknai was telling the truth, simply isn't acceptable. Polygraphers don't let emotions or gut feeling or observations to include body language, and verbalizations taint the results," Trimarco says. Trimarco said he would be willing to conduct another polygraph test of Adam Shacknai, and any other witnesses in the investigation. If the test is inconclusive, as it was in this case, you state that you have no opinion, period, end of discussion. This means you run another test, with new questions. Polygraphers aren't trained to judge people's feelings, it's just not something we do, or have the capability of doing. Adam Shacknai needs to be given another polygraph test, Trimarco says."

time
09-22-2011, 05:42 PM
Is that the correct link Sunnie?

I did find this interesting from your link:

In yet another development, Bremner said she sent the following email message Wednesday evening to California Attorney General Kamala Harris:


Please be advised that I represent the family of Rebecca Zahau. I understand that you have received a letter from Jonah Shacknai requesting a review of the SDSD's investigation of Rebecca's death (and their conclusion that she committed suicide).
I will be respectfully submitting to you a formal and detailed response to Mr. Shacknai's letter (which was not copied to me nor to my clients). In the interim, I want to be on record that we are not requesting a review. Rather, we are requesting a full independent INVESTIGATION into the circumstances surrounding Rebecca's tragic death - with full input from us, our investigators and our experts.

We have significant and compelling information, analysis and crucial and pivotal facts to share. We have also retained nearly ten unimpeachable experts who with ample bases challenge the finding of suicide. We also have new compelling evidence to be investigated and new critical witnesses to be interviewed.

Thank you.
Anne M. Bremner
Attorney at Law

time
09-22-2011, 05:49 PM
Oh, sorry, I see the headline now on the video!

time
09-22-2011, 05:55 PM
In search warrants that were just released by a San Diego judge, Max's doctor, Dr. Peterson at Rady Children's Hospital told the Coronado Police Department, "he did not feel the visible injuries were consistent with the cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by Shacknai. Dr. Peterson expressed concerns based on the above factors that suffocation may have occurred prior to Shacknai's fall."

Puzzling...

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/max-shacknai-might-suffocated-doctor-claims-search-warrants

time
09-22-2011, 05:58 PM
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/130367943.html

I guess the key words are, "at first"

Newly obtained search warrants reveal that a doctor at first thought that Max Shacknai, son of Jonah Shacknai may have been suffocated.
A county sheriff’s investigation later confirmed that Max died after falling down the stairs in the infamous Spreckles mansion where Rebecca Zahau was found dead (http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Cops-Investigate-Death-at-Coronado-Mansion-125493288.html) days later.

However, Dr. Brad Peterson, a doctor at Rady’s Children’s hospital was quoted in a search warrant saying that Max might have suffocated before the fall. The visible injuries were not consistent with the cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by the boy, Peterson said.

SunnieRN
09-22-2011, 06:07 PM
Oh, sorry, I see the headline now on the video!

Sorry, went to read the article and saw the video, but should have posted to watch the video.:innocent: Too much work, not enough sleep.:floorlaugh:

SunnieRN
09-22-2011, 06:17 PM
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/130367943.html

I guess the key words are, "at first"

And being a mandated reporter, he would not have risked losing his medical license to cover up a child murder by strangulation.

CalElliot
09-22-2011, 06:27 PM
Warrants posted in forum media links.

Lexiintoronto
09-22-2011, 06:37 PM
According to the link below, the mansion was listed at 16.9 million last year - didn't it have surveillance cameras?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149706

Rhyme & Reason
09-22-2011, 07:16 PM
According to the link below, the mansion was listed at 16.9 million last year - didn't it have surveillance cameras?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149706

There is a security system in place but LE said it was regularly not used, unfortunately.

time
09-22-2011, 07:22 PM
Uh, this search warrant says Coronado Police Officers "received a radio call of a female who had hung herself" The fire department said they immediately noticed rigor mortis. Pg 8

jjenny
09-22-2011, 07:25 PM
According to the link below, the mansion was listed at 16.9 million last year - didn't it have surveillance cameras?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149706

Nor any working staff that we heard of.

time
09-22-2011, 07:25 PM
July 14th 1800 Respond to Children's Hospital Pending Protective Services Report

jjenny
09-22-2011, 07:27 PM
Puzzling...

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/max-shacknai-might-suffocated-doctor-claims-search-warrants

The "visible injuries" are the key here. Max's facial injuries would not explain why he stopped breathing. His neck also was not broken. But what the doctor did not see was the extensive damage to Max's spinal cord. But that doctor's opinion explains why DS apparently believes Max was suffocated (as was reported to us by a poster with inside information.)

time
09-22-2011, 07:33 PM
The "visible injuries" are the key here. Max's facial injuries would not explain why he stopped breathing. His neck also was not broken. But what the doctor did not see was the extensive damage to Max's spinal cord. But that doctor's opinion explains why DS apparently believes Max was suffocated (as was reported to us by a poster with inside information.)

Yes. I just don't understand why he didn't tell them that this was just an initial opinion and testing would validate or not? I really don't know if he was ethical in claiming the suffocation so strongly ... he kept telling them that for four days? What was the testing on Wed (or ?) we heard about, an MRI to be performed?

Good grief, a woman is dead because of this (I'm convinced at least)

tiredblondy
09-23-2011, 04:57 AM
Yes. I just don't understand why he didn't tell them that this was just an initial opinion and testing would validate or not? I really don't know if he was ethical in claiming the suffocation so strongly ... he kept telling them that for four days? What was the testing on Wed (or ?) we heard about, an MRI to be performed?

Good grief, a woman is dead because of this (I'm convinced at least)

Ah yes. I absolutely agree. In the autopsy, the condition the child entered the hospital in was indictative of brainstem/spinal cord involvement.

from the autopsy report page 2

Upon paramedic’s arrival, CPR was continued, and cardiotonic medications were administered. During a second round of epinephrine, he had spontaneous return of circulation. The estimated duration of CPR was 25-30 minutes. He was transported via ambulance to Sharp Coronado Hospital. A head CT demonstrated cerebral edema, ‘rotational artifact’, and a possible C5 abnormality. He had nonreactive pupils upon admission and decorticated posturing. He was transferred to Rady Children’s Hospital

Just makes me want to cry..knowing what that meant..

katydid23
09-23-2011, 05:24 AM
Speaking of Atty. Bremner, I heard her on my car radio today on KFI talk radio. She said that a neighbor two doors down from the mansion came forward and contacted her and told her that she heard a woman scream HELP at 11;30 pm the evening of the hanging.

What I would like to know is if this neighbor called police after hearing that woman screaming for help? Otherwise, I am wondering why not? And is she being truthful?

Bremner said, when asked, that this neighbor has already been questioned by the police, but I dio not know when she was. Was it a story she told from the start? Or is she just coming forward now?

stilettos
09-23-2011, 01:58 PM
The "visible injuries" are the key here. Max's facial injuries would not explain why he stopped breathing. His neck also was not broken. But what the doctor did not see was the extensive damage to Max's spinal cord. But that doctor's opinion explains why DS apparently believes Max was suffocated (as was reported to us by a poster with inside information.)

Which IMO is called Motive....You can bet that my husband would be keeping me under 100% eyeball to eyeball guard should he ever think that I was under the impression someone killed my child...he knows me. I would ask him to keep the weapons in the house under lock and key because I may not be responsible for my own actions. Just saying...I can see where this one doctor may have set a chain reaction into motion.

SunnieRN
09-23-2011, 03:17 PM
Speaking of Atty. Bremner, I heard her on my car radio today on KFI talk radio. She said that a neighbor two doors down from the mansion came forward and contacted her and told her that she heard a woman scream HELP at 11;30 pm the evening of the hanging.

What I would like to know is if this neighbor called police after hearing that woman screaming for help? Otherwise, I am wondering why not? And is she being truthful?

Bremner said, when asked, that this neighbor has already been questioned by the police, but I dio not know when she was. Was it a story she told from the start? Or is she just coming forward now?

Guess we are finding out that the information was reported to the police, at least that is the current news. I take this to mean, since it was not released by LE, that there had to be a reason for that.

KarenM
09-23-2011, 03:38 PM
Speaking of Atty. Bremner, I heard her on my car radio today on KFI talk radio. She said that a neighbor two doors down from the mansion came forward and contacted her and told her that she heard a woman scream HELP at 11;30 pm the evening of the hanging.

What I would like to know is if this neighbor called police after hearing that woman screaming for help? Otherwise, I am wondering why not? And is she being truthful?

Bremner said, when asked, that this neighbor has already been questioned by the police, but I dio not know when she was. Was it a story she told from the start? Or is she just coming forward now?

Radaronline reported that the new witness attempted to report the information to police twice but was "blown off" (http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/rebecca-zahau-witness-heard-screams-went-cops-blown).

I am not very surprised that the witness did not call 911 the same night. Sometimes people think the scream is from a neighbor's TV or teenagers playing. Sometimes the scream dies down quickly and they think their ears are wrong. Plus murder isn't something that happens all the time (thankfully). Most people do not think they will ever be a murder witness.

But when death is proved to have happened, people start to rethink what they have heard.

Whether this witness is credible will depend on other factors. I hope we can see more reports upcoming.

jjenny
09-23-2011, 04:18 PM
Radaronline reported that the new witness attempted to report the information to police twice but was "blown off" (http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/rebecca-zahau-witness-heard-screams-went-cops-blown).

I am not very surprised that the witness did not call 911 the same night. Sometimes people think the scream is from a neighbor's TV or teenagers playing. Sometimes the scream dies down quickly and they think their ears are wrong. Plus murder isn't something that happens all the time (thankfully). Most people do not think they will ever be a murder witness.

But when death is proved to have happened, people start to rethink what they have heard.

Whether this witness is credible will depend on other factors. I hope we can see more reports upcoming.

If it was coming from the mansion the witness could have believed other people were there and could help. If the witness tried to report this to the police, then I find the witness more credible than if the witness just came forward now.

MyBelle
09-23-2011, 04:46 PM
Speaking of Atty. Bremner, I heard her on my car radio today on KFI talk radio. She said that a neighbor two doors down from the mansion came forward and contacted her and told her that she heard a woman scream HELP at 11;30 pm the evening of the hanging.

What I would like to know is if this neighbor called police after hearing that woman screaming for help? Otherwise, I am wondering why not? And is she being truthful?

Bremner said, when asked, that this neighbor has already been questioned by the police, but I dio not know when she was. Was it a story she told from the start? Or is she just coming forward now?

She hears somebody scream for help but she doesn't lift the receiver and call 911 to summon help? I can certainly see why LE blew her off if she filed a police report later. Good grief.

JMO

jjenny
09-23-2011, 04:50 PM
She hears somebody scream for help but she doesn't lift the receiver and call 911 to summon help? I can certainly see why LE blew her off if she filed a police report later. Good grief.

JMO

Maybe the witness believed whoever was in the mansion was going to help. A witness is not necessarily going to think a person's life could be in danger even if that person screaming for help-especially from inside a large mansion.

defense101
09-23-2011, 04:57 PM
Is that the correct link Sunnie?

I did find this interesting from your link:

She hears somebody scream for help but she doesn't lift the receiver and call 911 to summon help? I can certainly see why LE blew her off if she filed a police report later. Good grief.

JMOUnfortunately that is the society we live in today, we see people hit by cars in crosswalks and people continue on about their business not stopping to help, irregardless of that LE should not be blowing off witnesses period.

MyBelle
09-23-2011, 05:04 PM
Maybe the witness believed whoever was in the mansion was going to help. A witness is not necessarily going to think a person's life could be in danger even if that person screaming for help-especially from inside a large mansion.

There really is no good excuse for ignoring a call for help and not punching in three numbers into a phone to call for LE.

JMO

SunnieRN
09-23-2011, 05:16 PM
myBelle, according to articles, she did report the scream:

Linky dink:


http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/rebecca-zahau-witness-heard-screams-went-cops-blown

This was reported twice!

SophieRose
09-23-2011, 05:23 PM
myBelle, according to articles, she did report the scream:

Linky dink:


http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/rebecca-zahau-witness-heard-screams-went-cops-blown

This was reported twice!

They reported it after the fact. They did not report it that night.

jjenny
09-23-2011, 05:25 PM
They reported it after the fact. They did not report it that night.

The point it, the witness reported it, but police never mentioned anything in any of their conferences.

SophieRose
09-23-2011, 05:29 PM
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/new-witness-mansion-deaths-says-they-heard-woman-scream-help-hours-cops-claim

"The witness contradicts the facts released by the sheriff's department," a source close to the the family's legal team told RadarOnline.com. "This individual, whose name is not being disclosed, was unequivocal about what they heard: a woman scream for help -- from inside the mansion -- at 11 pm PT"

She heard a call for help, could identify it came from the mansion, yet did not dial 911.

jjenny
09-23-2011, 05:44 PM
She heard a call for help, could identify it came from the mansion, yet did not dial 911.

Wouldn't be the first time something like this happened, would it?

SunnieRN
09-23-2011, 05:45 PM
Snip:


'The witness contradicts the facts released by the sheriff's department," a source close to the the family's legal team told RadarOnline.com. "This individual, whose name is not being disclosed, was unequivocal about what they heard: a woman scream for help -- from inside the mansion -- at 11 pm PT"

It's a dramatic development that challenges the theory floated by law enforcement. They've suggested a guilt-ridden Zahau killed herself at about 3am PT, after being informed of a grim prognosis for Max, 6, who suffered grave injuries from a fall while under the woman's care.

According to a source close to Zahau's family, the new information "appears to back up" information they obtained from Zahau’s phone records which questioned whether the voice mail that allegedly triggered the suicide was indeed left. The AT&T call logs revealed Zahau had a series of phone conversations and exchanged several text messages in the hours leading up to her death, as RadarOnline.com previously reported.


Nineteen minutes before the witness heard the "scream for help," Zahau received a text message from Nina Romano, 41, the twin sister of Shacknai's ex-wife Dina. In an interview with News 8 San Deigo last Saturday, Romano said she sent the text message because she wanted to visit Zahau "to talk to her about the accident."

SunnieRN
09-23-2011, 05:47 PM
Wouldn't be the first time something like this happened, would it?

She says she approached LE twice about the scream.

SunnieRN
09-23-2011, 07:11 PM
They reported it after the fact. They did not report it that night.

She heard a call for help, could identify it came from the mansion, yet did not dial 911.

Just curious how you happen to be aware that she did not call 911? Do you possibly have a link that states she didn't call 911?

SophieRose
09-23-2011, 07:33 PM
Just curious how you happen to be aware that she did not call 911? Do you possibly have a link that states she didn't call 911?

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/rebecca-zahau-witness-heard-screams-went-cops-blown

The new witness in the Coronado mansion deaths -- who is claiming they heard a "scream for help" hours before cops said Rebecca Zahau died -- attempted to report the information to police twice but was "blown off," RadarOnline.com has exclusively learned.

Sounds like it was reported later, after the fact.

MyBelle
09-23-2011, 07:43 PM
They reported it after the fact. They did not report it that night.

Seems so. Too little, too late to actually help someone.

JMO

Boodles
09-23-2011, 07:46 PM
This has probably been said before, but I just joined in on this case here today.

I think the circumstances about Maxie's injury are strange. The only thing I can think of is that he was running down the hall, as energetic little boys do. The dog was excited, too, and jumped into Maxie's path (because Maxie had to be running to have the velocity to flip over the railing). Tripping on the dog while running sent Maxie over the railing.

The scooter was in the downstairs stair area, and on impact, Maxie hit it with some part of his body and it ended up partially on his foot/shin.

And possibly someone (Xena?) told Jonah that Maxie was playing with the dog, and Jonah decided it was the dog's fault. Jonah told Rebecca "get that dog out of here," thus the kennel and the tears.

And I have no theories about Rebecca's death. Yeah, the brother looks like an obvious suspect. Yes, he had the knot skills, but why bother to do that elaborate hand/leg thing - it was overkill and just makes him more of a suspect and makes it appear less as a suicide! If he threw her over the balcony sometime after 1AM, did he really sit there quietly in the guest house until 6:45 knowing there was a body hanging in the courtyard outside?

It seems they would have found a better excuse somehow to find her body before 6:45AM (something as simple as: "couldn't sleep..." or "heard a noise". (You'll say I am naive to think that, but even for a murderer, it would seem way too difficult to kill someone and then sit and wait for 3, 4, 5 hours while the body is hanging outside your window.)

However, having said that, I have no alternative explanations to offer...

justbetweenus
09-23-2011, 07:55 PM
This has probably been said before, but I just joined in on this case here today.

I think the circumstances about Maxie's injury are strange. The only thing I can think of is that he was running down the hall, as energetic little boys do. The dog was excited, too, and jumped into Maxie's path (because Maxie had to be running to have the velocity to flip over the railing). Tripping on the dog while running sent Maxie over the railing.

The scooter was in the downstairs stair area, and on impact, Maxie hit it with some part of his body and it ended up partially on his foot/shin.

And possibly someone (Xena?) told Jonah that Maxie was playing with the dog, and Jonah decided it was the dog's fault. Jonah told Rebecca "get that dog out of here," thus the kennel and the tears.

And I have no theories about Rebecca's death. Yeah, the brother looks like an obvious suspect. Yes, he had the knot skills, but why bother to do that elaborate hand/leg thing - it was overkill and just makes him more of a suspect and makes it appear less as a suicide! If he threw her over the balcony sometime after 1AM, did he really sit there quietly in the guest house until 6:45 knowing there was a body hanging in the courtyard outside?

It seems they would have found a better excuse somehow to find her body before 6:45AM (something as simple as: "couldn't sleep..." or "heard a noise". (You'll say I am naive to think that, but even for a murderer, it would seem way too difficult to kill someone and then sit and wait for 3, 4, 5 hours while the body is hanging outside your window.)

However, having said that, I have no alternative explanations to offer...

Bolded by me: yeah, when there was a whole ocean just outside the door.lol.

I'm not saying Rebecca wasn't murdered,she very well could have been, but I just can't see Jonah, or Adam being responsible. Why bring so much suspicion to themselves? Take her body and hang from a tree somewhere, or dump her in the ocean.

oceanblueeyes
09-23-2011, 08:06 PM
http://www.cbs8.com/story/15520745/sheriff-launches-forensic-exam-of-zahaus-cell-phone-new-witnesses-accounts-reported

From the comments under the article.

"Jack Trimarco -- an ex-FBI agent that ran the polygraph division for the bureau in Los Angeles -- says another lie detector test needs to be given to Adam Shacknai. For someone with Paul Redden's credentials and reputation, to say that he wasn't able to draw a conclusion, but FELT Adam Shacknai was telling the truth, simply isn't acceptable. Polygraphers don't let emotions or gut feeling or observations to include body language, and verbalizations taint the results," Trimarco says. Trimarco said he would be willing to conduct another polygraph test of Adam Shacknai, and any other witnesses in the investigation. If the test is inconclusive, as it was in this case, you state that you have no opinion, period, end of discussion. This means you run another test, with new questions. Polygraphs aren't trained to judge people's feelings, it's just not something we do, or have the capability of doing. Adam Shacking needs to be given another polygraph test, Trimarco says."

Is the same guy that use to be on tv and said he could tell if someone was lying just by hearing them speak and how they answered the questions?

Or was that another ex-polygraph examiner?

TIA

IMO

oceanblueeyes
09-23-2011, 08:18 PM
Sounds like it was reported later, after the fact.

What is most puzzling to me is if she really heard a woman screaming for help then why in the world wouldnt she have called 911 immediately????

oceanblueeyes
09-23-2011, 08:24 PM
myBelle, according to articles, she did report the scream:

Linky dink:


http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/09/rebecca-zahau-witness-heard-screams-went-cops-blown

This was reported twice!

It doesn't say when though.

I would think she would get in contact with Rebecca's family right away after being 'blown off' as she states it.

Now if we find out there was a call placed that night around 11:30 pm when she heard it ......I will take that much more seriously.



IMO

justbetweenus
09-23-2011, 08:29 PM
She says she approached LE twice about the scream.

Do we know if this person is female?

CDS22
09-23-2011, 08:33 PM
Bringing some things over from the other thread:

The SW says the doctor "expressed concerns made based on the -- the above factors, suffocation may have occurred prior to Shacknai's fall". (direct quote from page 5 of the third thumbnail in the SW link).

What gets me about that quote is that he specifically says suffocation may have occurred PRIOR to the fall. How could he fall if he were suffocated?

ziggy
09-23-2011, 08:34 PM
Seems to me with Max's height and the railing height, even if he was running and ran into the dog or ran into anything the natural consequence would be to hit the railing and fall or fall down the stairs, not get lifted into the air and OVER the railing. Defying gravity is not easy; so that's why finding a scenario whereby he is sent over the railing is baffling to me.

jjenny
09-23-2011, 08:35 PM
Seems to me with Max's height and the railing height, even if he was running and ran into the dog or ran into anything the natural consequence would be to hit the railing and fall or fall down the stairs, not get lifted into the air and OVER the railing. Defying gravity is not easy; so that's why finding a scenario whereby he is sent over the railing is baffling to me.

There is an area where railing dips. Which is where police think he went over.

CDS22
09-23-2011, 08:38 PM
Seems to me with Max's height and the railing height, even if he was running and ran into the dog or ran into anything the natural consequence would be to hit the railing and fall or fall down the stairs, not get lifted into the air and OVER the railing. Defying gravity is not easy; so that's why finding a scenario whereby he is sent over the railing is baffling to me.

That's what's troubling most of us, particularly with the doctor saying he believes MS was suffocated prior to his fall. (Quote 2 posts above from the SW in thumbnail 3).

greenpalm
09-23-2011, 08:42 PM
CDS22 asked me: What's your take on Max's death?

I believe that Maxie's death was an accident. I believe there may have been some horseplay going on on the stairway banister earlier that morning, before the teenaged shacknai's left. I don't doubt that all the minors were horsing around on that railing. I have no real speculation regarding the specifics. I would believe many possibilities, none of them malicious. I'd even believe XZ could have been involved or a witness, but I'd also buy a scenario in which Maxie, having been warned of the dangers, waited until XZ & RZ were both in the bathroom to try his stunt.

I also believe it's possible, even likely that, if DS was already mistrusting of RZ (do we have confirmation of that? I heard DS didn't want Maxie alone with RZ. Anyone verify that?) so, assuming their trust was strained, then DS gets this info from the doc that Maxie might have been suffocated prior to his fall, that would be some wicked motivation to retaliate. Now, in hindsight, we know from the autopsy that the pre-suffocation wasn't true. His spinal cord was damaged without any fractures to his vertebra. But, at the time, if DS or JS thought Maxie's Death was malicious, it certainly could warrant some rage on their part, directed at RZ. I can't imagine how angry I'd be. It's beyond comprehension.

MOO

CDS22
09-23-2011, 08:44 PM
"Rebecca loved and adored Max as her own son. She often shared stories with us about Jonah's children, especially Little 'Maxie,' " Mary wrote.


http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/2011/08/06/20110806shacknai-girlfriend-mystery-lingers.html#ixzz1YpHSqRau

Kind of strange that now we know the "stories" shared about JS's other two children weren't so pleasant.

Was Shacknai in love with Becky?

Mary hesitates.

“I don’t know. I couldn’t read [them]. I mean, were they affectionate with each other? No, not really. Not in front of us. If I saw them, I probably wouldn’t get that impression. Becky told me that she did love him but that she was disappointed in a lot of ways because he wouldn’t…she was disappointed in his [teenaged] kids, [how] they were allowed to be openly rude to her. Those other two children didn’t want her, period. They resented her. And Jonah would not defend her [against them], stop that. Not really. Not by my impression.”

By this summer, it was coming to a crunch for Rebecca.

“We talked about it; that if the teenaged kids’ behavior doesn’t improve she was considering telling Jonah at the end of this summer that she…needed to have some time to herself.

“I don’t know if she ended up telling him or not.”

http://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2011/sep/14/citylights2-rebecca-zahau/

CDS22
09-23-2011, 08:46 PM
CDS22 asked me:

I believe that Maxie's death was an accident. I believe there may have been some horseplay going on on the stairway banister earlier that morning, before the teenaged shacknai's left. I don't doubt that all the minors were horsing around on that railing. I have no real speculation regarding the specifics. I would believe many possibilities, none of them malicious. I'd even believe XZ could have been involved or a witness, but I'd also buy a scenario in which Maxie, having been warned of the dangers, waited until XZ & RZ were both in the bathroom to try his stunt.

I also believe it's possible, even likely that, if DS was already mistrusting of RZ (do we have confirmation of that? I heard DS didn't want Maxie alone with RZ. Anyone verify that?) so, assuming their trust was strained, then DS gets this info from the doc that Maxie might have been suffocated prior to his fall, that would be some wicked motivation to retaliate. Now, in hindsight, we know from the autopsy that the pre-suffocation wasn't true. His spinal cord was damaged without any fractures to his vertebra. But, at the time, if DS or JS thought Maxie's Death was malicious, it certainly could warrant some rage on their part, directed at RZ. I can't imagine how angry I'd be. It's beyond comprehension.

MOO

Thanks for your response.

Do you have any specific theories on how he went over the railing and got fatal whiplash? That's what gets me - how he got his spinal cord unplugged from his brain in a way that typically only happens in a car accident with no seat belt. I can't see him getting enough velocity even if he fell from the railing or jumped. Plus it wouldn't explain his back injuries and the fact that he was found with a scooter on his leg.

SophieRose
09-23-2011, 08:55 PM
Thanks for your response.

Do you have any specific theories on how he went over the railing and got fatal whiplash? That's what gets me - how he got his spinal cord unplugged from his brain in a way that typically only happens in a car accident with no seat belt. I can't see him getting enough velocity even if he fell from the railing or jumped. Plus it wouldn't explain his back injuries and the fact that he was found with a scooter on his leg.

Plus RZ didn't know if she found him on his stomach or back. If he was on his stomach, did he say "Ocean" into the carpet. Did the scooter fall on him after she rolled him over?

thinkingstraight
09-23-2011, 08:58 PM
Bringing some things over from the other thread:

The SW says the doctor "expressed concerns made based on the -- the above factors, suffocation may have occurred prior to Shacknai's fall". (direct quote from page 5 of the third thumbnail in the SW link).

What gets me about that quote is that he specifically says suffocation may have occurred PRIOR to the fall. How could he fall if he were suffocated?

You're right! I had to read that a couple of times and now it's all coming to me! An unconscious (presumably dead?) person cannot fall off the stairs on their own (and I'll just throw in they can't say "Ocean" either)

jjenny
09-23-2011, 09:01 PM
You're right! I had to read that a couple of times and now it's all coming to me! An unconscious (presumably dead?) person cannot fall off the stairs on their own (and I'll just throw in they can't say "Ocean" either)
Max was not an "unconscious" or "dead" when he went over the railing. His cardiac arrest was caused by spinal cord contusion, not suffocation.

thinkingstraight
09-23-2011, 09:05 PM
Plus RZ didn't know if she found him on his stomach or back. If he was on his stomach, did he say "Ocean" into the carpet. Did the scooter fall on him after she rolled him over?

Didn't she tell the police that he had been warned not to play on his scooter in the house? Wasn't that a little early to start "blaming the victim". I'm not sure if she said this at the time of the accident or later. I hope someone can find a link to that. That's always bothered me.

thinkingstraight
09-23-2011, 09:09 PM
Max was not an "unconscious" or "dead" when he went over the railing. His cardiac arrest was caused by spinal cord contusion, not suffocation.

Or maybe he just stopped breathing before he suffered the spinal cord contusion. Honestly, I'm not a doctor. I don't know.

CDS22
09-23-2011, 09:12 PM
Max was not an "unconscious" or "dead" when he went over the railing. His cardiac arrest was caused by spinal cord contusion, not suffocation.

That means he could not have said "Ocean" as Rebecca claims.

CDS22
09-23-2011, 09:17 PM
Plus RZ didn't know if she found him on his stomach or back. If he was on his stomach, did he say "Ocean" into the carpet. Did the scooter fall on him after she rolled him over?

Interesting that the SW states RZ told them she found MS on his back and turned him over to administer CPR (page 3, thumbnail 3). If that is true, how did the scooter wind up on his leg? Also, did she tell one cop one thing and something quite different to another?

justbetweenus
09-23-2011, 09:18 PM
Didn't she tell the police that he had been warned not to play on his scooter in the house? Wasn't that a little early to start "blaming the victim". I'm not sure if she said this at the time of the accident or later. I hope someone can find a link to that. That's always bothered me.

Yes you're right she did. It has bothered me too. Also she said (paraphrazing) the last time she had seen the scooter had been a couple days ago (at time of accident) and was upstairs. It is in her statement to police. I can no longer open the docs as I get file damaged. Wish I had of saved them.

ETA: she said that Max was warned not to play with the scooter upstairs.

justbetweenus
09-23-2011, 09:22 PM
Interesting that the SW states RZ told them she found MS on his back and turned him over to administer CPR (page 3, thumbnail 3). If that is true, how did the scooter wind up on his leg? Also, did she tell one cop one thing and something quite different to another?

Good point!

jjenny
09-23-2011, 09:24 PM
The idea that RN would want to hurt the child is absurd. The woman quit her job and moved in with a millionaire. Presumably she might have wanted to become a Mrs. S. Hurting the child is not the way to go to achieve that goal. So she has no motive whatsoever to do anything to the child.

CDS22
09-23-2011, 09:28 PM
Okay, on the list in the SW, thumbnail 3, they say they list a black T-shirt (cut) (that's item 3 on the list). Page 4 says they found the shirt near MS at the scene. So who's shirt was it since MS was wearing a shirt, and how did it get cut? Did someone change him prior to calling the police, or was it XZ's or RZ's? Why would a cut T-shirt be lying next to an injured child with a scooter across his leg and a chandelier at his shoulder?

thinkingstraight
09-23-2011, 09:30 PM
The idea that RN would want to hurt the child is absurd. The woman quit her job and moved in with a millionaire. Presumably she might have wanted to become a Mrs. S. Hurting the child is not the way to go to achieve that goal. So she has no motive whatsoever to do anything to the child.

Do you not see any of it as peculiar? I don't know if she hurt Max intentionally or not, but I do see a coverup. IMO. So, why?

SmoothOperator
09-23-2011, 09:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendy101 *
Did I read somewhere that Maxi was told not to ride his scooter in the hall??

Wonder if he was riding his scooter and went over the railing at great speed?


Originally Posted by CDS22
How would he gain the velocity on carpeting? Also, there is no proof he rode the scooter in the hallway. RZ and XZ claim they heard no sounds until RZ heard one crash.


Wendy, what you likely are remembering is the following statement from LE conclusions in power point:
"Statements regarding history of playing in the hall and staircase"
Referring to yes, there were statements given that Max was known to play in this hall area in question and the staircase.. But it doesn't get specific stating the scooter per se.. Tho the very next line does state that the scooter was found to be in the area where the accident occurred..

Referring to the quote regarding a scooter gaining enough velocity on a carpeted area.. All I can say is personal experience proves otherwise, especially in specifically speaking of an exact Razor scooter, along with a son who was small-med frame 6yr old just like Max and the velocity that can be gained with a child the size of Max riding a Razor scooter on carpet is much greater than what would be necessary in Wendy's theory of his going over the banister.. Without a doubt it's possible.. As for both Rebecca and XZ not hearing anything.. A) Rebecca was on a separate floor*
B) XV was in the shower and was just getting out when heard Rebecca screaming for her
C) A&B combined with C being that a Razor scooter on a carpeted hallway would not be audible to either of these two people! It wouldn't have been loud in the very least..

Jmo!! And personal experience.

CDS22
09-23-2011, 09:40 PM
Wendy, what you likely are remembering is the following statement from LE conclusions in power point:

Referring to yes, there were statements given that Max was known to play in this hall area in question and the staircase.. But it doesn't get specific stating the scooter per se.. Tho the very next line does state that the scooter was found to be in the area where the accident occurred..

Referring to the quote regarding a scooter gaining enough velocity on a carpeted area.. All I can say is personal experience proves otherwise, especially in specifically speaking of an exact Razor scooter, along with a son who was small-med frame 6yr old just like Max and the velocity that can be gained with a child the size of Max riding a Razor scooter on carpet is much greater than what would be necessary in Wendy's theory of his going over the banister.. Without a doubt it's possible.. As for both Rebecca and XZ not hearing anything.. A) Rebecca was on a separate floor*
B) XV was in the shower and was just getting out when heard Rebecca screaming for her
C) A&B combined with C being that a Razor scooter on a carpeted hallway would not be audible to either of these two people! It wouldn't have been loud in the very least..

Jmo!! And personal experience.

Actually, MS's AR contains a blurb about RZ saying he was not allowed to ride the scooter in the hallway. The link to the AR is on the first page in the first post of the first Max death thread.

SmoothOperator
09-23-2011, 09:45 PM
Actually, MS's AR contains a blurb about RZ saying he was not allowed to ride the scooter in the hallway. The link to the AR is on the first page in the first post of the first Max death thread.

As I clearly stated regardless the razor would not have been loud in the least.. It's easily proven..

tiredblondy
09-23-2011, 09:45 PM
Thanks for your response.

Do you have any specific theories on how he went over the railing and got fatal whiplash? That's what gets me - how he got his spinal cord unplugged from his brain in a way that typically only happens in a car accident with no seat belt. I can't see him getting enough velocity even if he fell from the railing or jumped. Plus it wouldn't explain his back injuries and the fact that he was found with a scooter on his leg.


I can contribute to this,it depends on how one lands from the fall and the momentum. Football players can have this happen if they are knocked in the air and come down the wrong way, even with the helmet. Chris Reeves had a brainstem injury.

If...if he was using the scooter to try to get a ball out of the chandelier and the dog knocked him off balance the scooter would be in his hands and would have knocked his head backwards upon landing (because of the length ). I think after the point of landing and the scooter slamming against his head he would have released it and it would have flown up in the air landing behind him somewhere. I also don't think he was on the lower landing I think he may have been on the upper level of stairs.

Another possibility is the scooter got caught in the chandlier when he went over slamming into his head and face snapping his neck back. He would have released it then but hanging on it could have swung him higher first then down.

I've tried to explain this over and over and I just don't know if I haven't done a good job or what but to me this makes the most sense. I don't think it was a simple fall but one in which he or the scooter got tangled up in the fall.

Another possibility is he just landed that way forcing his head back but if he had been holding that scooter in any way it could have caused him to lose balance and be top heavy. Just think have you ever fallen with anything in your hands? I have and if what I'm carrying is heavy and or long it has smacked me right in the face or head. Luckily it wasn't down 2 flights of stairs.

I think it is entirely possible he was stretching to hold out the scooter to knock the ball out of the chandelier probably with his feet wrapped around the banister (very precariously balanced). If the dog jumped on him or jostled him in any way that balance would be gone. I suspect strongly if he said Ocean that's what happened. A true and total accident.

There would have been enough circulation left in his brain to utter a word then because of the function of the pons and brainstem the damage from the fall would have taken effect and the autonomic nervous system would not have been able to get the signals through anymore for the beating heart and breathing and both stopped.

If the communication cannot get through to the brain then only life support can maintain those autonomic functions.

I feel this article about Christopher Reeve is very informative and I've included a few parts from the article below:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A99660-1995Jun1.html

There are seven vertebrae in the neck, and any break in the first four, accompanied by a serious spinal cord injury, will cause severe impairment of breathing and quadriplegia. What was not spelled out in Jane's statement is the extent to which Reeve's spinal cord was disrupted.
The spinal cord carries nerve fibers traveling both from the brain to the rest of the body and from the body back to the brain. Those coming from the brain are responsible for voluntary control of muscles. Those traveling toward the brain carry sensation.
Cameron B. Huckell, an assistant professor of orthopedic surgery at the Johns Hopkins University medical school, said yesterday that "most people who have a complete disruption of the spinal cord don't even make it to the hospital. **Only patients who have been rapidly resuscitated survive the initial event and then have a 60 to 70 percent mortality rate at one week."
Lawrence S. Chin, assistant professor of surgery at the University of Maryland School of Medicine in Baltimore, concurs. "If there is absolutely no indication of some type of recovery at 48 hours, the chance that there will be recovery is very, very low," he said.

**This in my opinion supports Rebecca giving him CPR right away.

I hope I have explained what I think happened.

Max looked so much like my son did at that age. I can't imagine the way the parents must feel. The devastation, the loss, knowing you're not going to hear his voice again, memories of his energy and loving nature and not being able to hug him again or have him hug you. But on the other side what a blessing to have had him for the six years they did.

If I did not have a background and was in a profession that dealt with neurology and being a parent dealing with this, I'm not sure I'd understand right away either.Especially if a Dr expressed suspicions of foul play, I'd be furious but I also understand that Dr's are human.

If- what I surmise is what happened, it could have happened under anyone's supervision anywhere.

I think the parents actually had a chance to say goodbye and spend time with Max because CPR was administered.

CDS22
09-23-2011, 09:50 PM
I can contribute to this,it depends on how one lands from the fall and the momentum. Football players can have this happen if they are knocked in the air and come down the wrong way, even with the helmet. Chris Reeves had a brainstem injury.

If...if he was using the scooter to try to get a ball out of the chandelier and the dog knocked him off balance the scooter would be in his hands and would have knocked his head backwards upon landing (because of the length ). I think after the point of landing and the scooter slamming against his head he would have released it and it would have flown up in the air landing behind him somewhere. I also don't think he was on the lower landing I think he may have been on the upper level of stairs.

Another possibility is the scooter got caught in the chandlier when he went over slamming into his head and face snapping his neck back. He would have released it then but hanging on it could have swung him higher first then down.

I've tried to explain this over and over and I just don't know if I haven't done a good job or what but to me this makes the most sense. I don't think it was a simple fall but one in which he or the scooter got tangled up in the fall.

Another possibility is he just landed that way forcing his head back but if he had been holding that scooter in any way it could have caused him to lose balance and be top heavy. Just think have you ever fallen with anything in your hands? I have and if what I'm carrying is heavy and or long it has smacked me right in the face. Luckily it wasn't down 2 flights of stairs.

I think it is entirely possible he was stretching to hold out the scooter to knock the ball out of the chandelier probably with his feet wrapped around the banister (very precariously balanced). If the dog jumped on him or jostled him in any way that balance would be gone. I suspect strongly if he said Ocean that's what happened. A true and total accident.

There would have been enough circulation left in his brain to utter a word then because of the function of the pons and brainstem the damage from the fall would have taken effect and the autonomic nervous system would not have been able to get the signals through anymore for the beating heart and breathing and both stopped.

If the communication cannot get through to the brain then only life support can maintain those autonomic functions.

I feel this article about Christopher Reeve is very informative and I've included a few parts from the article below:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A99660-1995Jun1.html

There are seven vertebrae in the neck, and any break in the first four, accompanied by a serious spinal cord injury, will cause severe impairment of breathing and quadriplegia. What was not spelled out in Jane's statement is the extent to which Reeve's spinal cord was disrupted.
The spinal cord carries nerve fibers traveling both from the brain to the rest of the body and from the body back to the brain. Those coming from the brain are responsible for voluntary control of muscles. Those traveling toward the brain carry sensation.
Cameron B. Huckell, an assistant professor of orthopedic surgery at the Johns Hopkins University medical school, said yesterday that "most people who have a complete disruption of the spinal cord don't even make it to the hospital. **Only patients who have been rapidly resuscitated survive the initial event and then have a 60 to 70 percent mortality rate at one week."
Lawrence S. Chin, assistant professor of surgery at the University of Maryland School of Medicine in Baltimore, concurs. "If there is absolutely no indication of some type of recovery at 48 hours, the chance that there will be recovery is very, very low," he said.

**This in my opinion supports Rebecca giving him CPR right away.

I hope I have explained what I think happened.

Max looked so much like my son did at that age. I can't imagine the way the parents must feel. The devastation, the loss, knowing you're not going to hear his voice again, memories of his energy and loving nature and not being able to hug him again or have him hug you. But on the other side what a blessing to have had him for the six years they did.

If I did not have a background and was in a profession that dealt with neurology and being a parent dealing with this, I'm not sure I'd understand right away either.Especially if a Dr expressed suspicions of foul play, I'd be furious but I also understand that Dr's are human.

If- what I surmise is what happened, it could have happened under anyone's supervision anywhere.

I think the parents actually had a chance to say goodbye and spend time with Max because CPR was administered.




Thanks for your response.

If MS had fallen and wasn't unconscious before his fall, he would have used his hands to break the impact. He didn't. That suggests he was unconscious prior to hitting the floor.

If the impact of his head on the floor is what caused his death, then he would have been conscious prior to hitting the floor and would have been able to scream for RZ.

According to what she told police in the AR, that did not happen.

JMO

CDS22
09-23-2011, 09:52 PM
As I clearly stated regardless the razor would not have been loud in the least.. It's easily proven..

The carpet would have provided enough traction that the speed couldn't have been reached for MS to go over the railing with the velocity needed to get that type of head injury.

IMO

jjenny
09-23-2011, 09:55 PM
The carpet would have provided enough traction that the speed couldn't have been reached for MS to go over the railing with the velocity needed to get that type of head injury.

IMO

Based on what do you make these kind of statements? Are you a mathematician?

Wendy101
09-23-2011, 09:59 PM
Didn't she tell the police that he had been warned not to play on his scooter in the house? Wasn't that a little early to start "blaming the victim". I'm not sure if she said this at the time of the accident or later. I hope someone can find a link to that. That's always bothered me.

BBM: This is what I asked earlier. Thank you for letting me know where I read that.

When I did read that, I assumed that Max was using his scooter and hit the railing and went over. Someone had commented back that there was carpet in the hallway, so Max wouldn't have had enough speed.

Wendy101
09-23-2011, 10:01 PM
How do you guys know there was carpet in the hallway? LOL.. I assumed it was hardwood.. real hardwood..:D .. a gazillionaire lives there...

tiredblondy
09-23-2011, 10:03 PM
Thanks for your response.

If MS had fallen and wasn't unconscious before his fall, he would have used his hands to break the impact. He didn't. That suggests he was unconscious prior to hitting the floor.

If the impact of his head on the floor is what caused his death, then he would have been conscious prior to hitting the floor and would have been able to scream for RZ.

According to what she told police in the AR, that did not happen.

JMO

Not if he was holding on to the scooter. I don't think he used his hands because he was holding on to the scooter. If any part of the scooter hit the floor before he landed it would have been pushed against his head backwards.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to give an explanation as to how he sustained the damage to his brainstem.

I don't know why I bothered. It is so obivious based on some posts that the hate against Rebecca is so strong some cannot even begin to consider possible alternatives to how Max sustained the damage. :banghead:

Wendy101
09-23-2011, 10:03 PM
Thanks for your response.

If MS had fallen and wasn't unconscious before his fall, he would have used his hands to break the impact. He didn't. That suggests he was unconscious prior to hitting the floor.

If the impact of his head on the floor is what caused his death, then he would have been conscious prior to hitting the floor and would have been able to scream for RZ.

According to what she told police in the AR, that did not happen.

JMO

BBM: Good point.

elementry
09-23-2011, 10:03 PM
Seems so. Too little, too late to actually help someone.

JMO

It sounds like you accept the fact there were screams. What do you surmise those were about? tia

SunnieRN
09-23-2011, 10:05 PM
Sounds like it was reported later, after the fact.

Possibly, guess we will just have to wait and see.



Do we know if this person is female?

Apologies, my error. I was speaking to someone who used 'she' and it stuck in my head.

Interesting that the SW states RZ told them she found MS on his back and turned him over to administer CPR (page 3, thumbnail 3). If that is true, how did the scooter wind up on his leg? Also, did she tell one cop one thing and something quite different to another?

Found him on his back and turned him over? How did she so cpr then?:waitasec:

The idea that RN would want to hurt the child is absurd. The woman quit her job and moved in with a millionaire. Presumably she might have wanted to become a Mrs. S. Hurting the child is not the way to go to achieve that goal. So she has no motive whatsoever to do anything to the child.

No motive whatsoever and a darn tootin good reason to 'protect her interests' by keeping Max safe. I happen to believe that she loved Max and enjoyed spending time with him, that those were the only 'interests' she was concerned about.

Quester
09-23-2011, 10:06 PM
From SW (warrant_4132-1.pdf, page 2, lines 20 - 22):

“The only adult present at the residence when the boy sustained his injuries was [RZ], with a birth date of [X XX XXXX]. [RZ]’s 13 year-old sister, [XZ] was also present at the residence. [XZ] called 911 while [RZ] provided first aid.”


My read concerning those present when MS fell is that RZ was the only adult, XZ was also there AND there was/were other minor(s) present who was/were not listed in the SW. IMO, MOO, etc.

Given the way the statement was written, if XZ had been the only minor present they would have stated as much. IMO.

My questions:

1. Why the hush-hush? [I think this is where the whole ugly snowball began. IMO. Where will it land and at what additional cost?]

2. Since XZ placed the 911 call, can the Z family/attorney push for the 911 recording to be unsealed?

TIA

Wendy101
09-23-2011, 10:09 PM
What part of Max' brain was damaged? What part of his head hit the floor?

KarenM
09-23-2011, 10:09 PM
Do you not see any of it as peculiar? I don't know if she hurt Max intentionally or not, but I do see a coverup. IMO. So, why?

I think JJenny was responding to the allegations of suffocation and Max being thrown off the railing. Suffocation and throwing (if indeed happened) can never be unintentional. That's why she said RZ had no motive for these two alleged actions.

tiredblondy
09-23-2011, 10:10 PM
What part of Max' brain was damaged? What part of his head hit the floor?


It's in the autopsy report.

Wendy101
09-23-2011, 10:13 PM
From SW (warrant_4132-1.pdf, page 2, lines 20 - 22):

“The only adult present at the residence when the boy sustained his injuries was [RZ], with a birth date of [X XX XXXX]. [RZ]’s 13 year-old sister, [XZ] was also present at the residence. [XZ] called 911 while [RZ] provided first aid.”


My read concerning those present when MS fell is that RZ was the only adult, XZ was also there AND there was/were other minor(s) present who was/were not listed in the SW. IMO, MOO, etc.

Given the way the statement was written, if XZ had been the only minor present they would have stated as much. IMO.

My questions:

1. Why the hush-hush? [I think this is where the whole ugly snowball began. IMO. Where will it land and at what additional cost?]

2. Since XZ placed the 911 call, can the Z family/attorney push for the 911 recording to be unsealed?

TIA

BBM: Who else was there?

oceanblueeyes
09-23-2011, 10:20 PM
Not if he was holding on to the scooter. I don't think he used his hands because he was holding on to the scooter. If any part of the scooter hit the floor before he landed it would have been pushed against his head backwards.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to give an explanation as to how he sustained the damage to his brainstem.

I don't know why I bothered. It is so obvious based on some posts that the hate against Rebecca is so strong some cannot even begin to consider possible alternatives to how Max sustained the damage. :banghead:

Surely if that scooter went off the railing crashing to the bottom floor it would have dents and damages too wouldn't it? I think there would be some evidence seen on the scooter if it flew over the railings and crashed below.

IMO

SunnieRN
09-23-2011, 10:20 PM
The carpet would have provided enough traction that the speed couldn't have been reached for MS to go over the railing with the velocity needed to get that type of head injury.

IMO

Maybe you could do a demonstration, proving that it is not possible. You said your two boys have scooters, maybe you could have them ride them on your carpet and show us the results. That would be very interesting.

As for Max being unconscious prior to hitting the ground, there is no way to know at this point. You state he was because he did not use his hands to break his fall.

People fall every day. We get a lot of them in the hospital. Some elderly, some young. Falls down stairs, or a step outside, falls deom tripping on a cement crack, where two pieces of cement don't fit together evenly, falls on wet floors. Even young adults can not always use their hands to catch themselves and did not break their falls or they wouldn't be in the hospital.

If Max did grab for the chandelier, as it did fall, so something happened, it wasn't broken yet. That is probably the reason there are no cuts on his hands. If the fall occurred like the video LE made, he face planted. He fell head/face first on to the ground. He wouldn't have had time to put his arms out to break the fall.

SunnieRN
09-23-2011, 10:22 PM
Surely if that scooter went off the railing crashing to the bottom floor it would have dents and damages too wouldn't it? I think there would be some evidence seen on the scooter if it flew over the railings and crashed below.

IMO

Not if it landed on the carpet and didn't hit any objects on the way down. Why would it be damaged?

SmoothOperator
09-23-2011, 10:23 PM
The carpet would have provided enough traction that the speed couldn't have been reached for MS to go over the railing with the velocity needed to get that type of head injury.

IMO


No, the velocity gained within which his head injury along with severe spinal cord injuries was from the great distance of the fall.. It has nothing to do with the velocity gained in theory of the scooter being part of the accident.. The scooter and it's velocity is irrelevant.. As is proven ny LE conclusion drawn and detailed in the demo.. It does not even take into account a scooter, period.. His injuries as consistent with a fall of such great magnitude along with the direction in which his body turned as it was falling.. That is what created the head injury of which you speak.. Nothing to do with a scooter, period.

thinkingstraight
09-23-2011, 10:29 PM
As I clearly stated regardless the razor would not have been loud in the least.. It's easily proven..

If I may, I don't think that's the point CD made. It is the comment that RZ made to LE that Max had been warned not to play with his scooter in the house. It's kind of a strange thing to say at that time. IMO

Melanie
09-23-2011, 10:42 PM
Is the same guy that use to be on tv and said he could tell if someone was lying just by hearing them speak and how they answered the questions?

Or was that another ex-polygraph examiner?

TIA

IMO

Sorry if this has already been answered, but he is the smarmy dude that always appears on Dr. Phil when there's a need for a LDT.

Not sure I would want one by this guy - I've never trusted him and feel he's bias (towards making the tests in Dr. P's favour).

Just my opinion of course.

Mel

Melanie
09-23-2011, 10:50 PM
Yes you're right she did. It has bothered me too. Also she said (paraphrazing) the last time she had seen the scooter had been a couple days ago (at time of accident) and was upstairs. It is in her statement to police. I can no longer open the docs as I get file damaged. Wish I had of saved them.

ETA: she said that Max was warned not to play with the scooter upstairs.

I know it's been mentioned in MSM's about the scooter being upstairs at one point, yet finding it near the body. Who knows, maybe the scooter was already downstairs and he happened to fall near it.

WHY was the scooter there to begin with? If you don't want a child riding it around in the house, how does it get there. My son is past the scooter stage, but it was always in the garage. Why wasn't the scooter in the garage, or outside that lavish courtyard? A scooter and indoors just doesn't work for me - especially living in sunny san diego. It wasn't raining or snowing that's for sure.

Worrisome that a parent would ask for this rule, yet allow the scoote in the house.

Not blaming anyone here, cuz there's probably a plausible reason why it was there -- but I can't figure one out.

MOOOOOO

Mel

greenpalm
09-23-2011, 10:54 PM
The idea that RN would want to hurt the child is absurd. The woman quit her job and moved in with a millionaire. Presumably she might have wanted to become a Mrs. S. Hurting the child is not the way to go to achieve that goal. So she has no motive whatsoever to do anything to the child.

I don't think for one minute that RZ wanted to hurt Max. I DO think DS may have had sufficient resentment towards RZ that she suspected RZ of wanting to hurt him. I imagine she could have drawn a quick conclusion about who she thought suffocated Max, once the doc expressed his suspicions.

Interesting that the SW states RZ told them she found MS on his back and turned him over to administer CPR (page 3, thumbnail 3). If that is true, how did the scooter wind up on his leg? Also, did she tell one cop one thing and something quite different to another?

I have always assumed that the scooter was already at the bottom of the stairs, and that Max either caused it to topple when he fell, or, shoot, Ocean was probably bouncing around the scene of the accident frantic with RZ's screaming, and a dogs innate interest in the goings on of people, not to mention, Ocean likely sensed Max was in big trouble. The scooter could have been standing on in the stairwell and either RZ, or Ocean, or the fall itself knocked it over so it ended up on top of Max's leg. I just don't think the scooter's position is mysterious here.

Wendy, what you likely are remembering is the following statement from LE conclusions in power point:

Referring to yes, there were statements given that Max was known to play in this hall area in question and the staircase.. But it doesn't get specific stating the scooter per se.. Tho the very next line does state that the scooter was found to be in the area where the accident occurred..

Referring to the quote regarding a scooter gaining enough velocity on a carpeted area.. All I can say is personal experience proves otherwise, especially in specifically speaking of an exact Razor scooter, along with a son who was small-med frame 6yr old just like Max and the velocity that can be gained with a child the size of Max riding a Razor scooter on carpet is much greater than what would be necessary in Wendy's theory of his going over the banister.. Without a doubt it's possible.. As for both Rebecca and XZ not hearing anything.. A) Rebecca was on a separate floor*
B) XV was in the shower and was just getting out when heard Rebecca screaming for her
C) A&B combined with C being that a Razor scooter on a carpeted hallway would not be audible to either of these two people! It wouldn't have been loud in the very least..

Jmo!! And personal experience.

BBM: This is what I asked earlier. Thank you for letting me know where I read that.

When I did read that, I assumed that Max was using his scooter and hit the railing and went over. Someone had commented back that there was carpet in the hallway, so Max wouldn't have had enough speed.

But… if Max was riding the scooter in the upstairs hallway, and let's assume he was able to achieve the required velocity to fly over the railing. The scooter wouldn't have gone over the railing. It would have stayed at the top of the steps. Unless he was trying to ride the scooter down the banister. Or, as someone (forgot who) suggested, using the scooter to try to knock a ball out of the chandelier, that could have brought Max and the scooter to the floor.

Kimster
09-23-2011, 11:04 PM
Mod FYI of the night:

"your ignore list.

NOTE: Do NOT post a message saying you are doing so, that's a TOS violation by you. Put them on the list and be happy."
Best Practices Dealing with your fellow posters - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

***THIS POST LANDS AT RANDOM***

Kimster
09-23-2011, 11:04 PM
Mod FYI of the night:

"your ignore list.

NOTE: Do NOT post a message saying you are doing so, that's a TOS violation by you. Put them on the list and be happy."
Best Practices Dealing with your fellow posters - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

***THIS POST LANDS AT RANDOM***

jjenny
09-23-2011, 11:09 PM
I think JJenny was responding to the allegations of suffocation and Max being thrown off the railing. Suffocation and throwing (if indeed happened) can never be unintentional. That's why she said RZ had no motive for these two alleged actions.

Exactly. Why would RN want to hurt the child? It doesn't make any sense.
The doctor who suggested suffocation came up with the idea because visible injuries didn't explain cardiac arrest. Spinal cord damage is not a visible injury and Max had severe spinal cord damage. So there is nothing to support the idea of suffocation.

SmoothOperator
09-23-2011, 11:13 PM
I think all can rest easy that "if" another LDT were to ever be given to Adam it would be given by someone who is still employed in LE, IMO likely even FBI.. But as for Jack he is retired so as far as investigation with this case by a LE agency no one has to worry they wouldn't be using someone who has retired..

SmoothOperator
09-23-2011, 11:21 PM
Actually, MS's AR contains a blurb about RZ saying he was not allowed to ride the scooter in the hallway. The link to the AR is on the first page in the first post of the first Max death thread.

Thanks thinkingstraight for setting me straight..lol.. So in reply to the correct post what's tht got to do with Max riding his scooter in the hall??

Are you purposing that because a 6yr old child was warned not to ride the scooter there that when no one was looking(XZ in shower and Rebecca in another bathroom) that a 6 yr old boy wouldn't go right ahead and ride the scooter exactly where he was told not to??

Because it all goes back to a very bad decision made by a little boy in a split second believing it was going to be something fun and it was something dangerous that cost him his life.. These deaths happen hundreds a year and they are no one faults.. Certainly not the guardian who is in the bathroom at the time..

SmoothOperator
09-23-2011, 11:26 PM
Just bringing forward relevant posts that are Important in the discussion.. Demo below:
http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb414/jessigirl1798/72d0b279.jpg

MyBelle
09-23-2011, 11:30 PM
What is most puzzling to me is if she really heard a woman screaming for help then why in the world wouldnt she have called 911 immediately????

My thoughts exactly. Ridiculous.

JMO

MyBelle
09-23-2011, 11:43 PM
That means he could not have said "Ocean" as Rebecca claims.

It's all pretty simple logic, imo. Nor does the AR say a spinal cord injury caused the cardiac arrest. If that were true, his heart would not have been successfully restarted to beat for another week. It is the lack of effective resuscitation that finally did the boy in.

The ME didn't make the diagnosis on the child, the Hospital ICU docs did and one of them had to sign the death certificate.

JMO

Dr.Fessel
09-23-2011, 11:45 PM
Just bringing forward relevant posts that are Important in the discussion.. Demo below:
http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb414/jessigirl1798/72d0b279.jpg Dang, how many people fell over this balcony? New to the case.:waitasec:

MyBelle
09-23-2011, 11:45 PM
Or maybe he just stopped breathing before he suffered the spinal cord contusion. Honestly, I'm not a doctor. I don't know.

But the ICU Chief is a doctor and his conclusion was that he stopped breathing prior to going over the railing. I have no reason to doubt the doctors who performed and interpreted the tests.

JMO

Rhyme & Reason
09-23-2011, 11:49 PM
Dang, how many people fell over this balcony? New to the case.:waitasec:

Yo Doc, welcome to the forum! This is what LE put out as what happened to 6 year old Max. He died as a result of the injuries :( but notice how the person depicted in this animation seems to be an adult.

MyBelle
09-23-2011, 11:51 PM
Do you not see any of it as peculiar? I don't know if she hurt Max intentionally or not, but I do see a coverup. IMO. So, why?

Child abusers often blame the victim. I also believe there is a coverup in regards to Max's death.

JMO

CDS22
09-23-2011, 11:51 PM
From SW (warrant_4132-1.pdf, page 2, lines 20 - 22):

“The only adult present at the residence when the boy sustained his injuries was [RZ], with a birth date of [X XX XXXX]. [RZ]’s 13 year-old sister, [XZ] was also present at the residence. [XZ] called 911 while [RZ] provided first aid.”


My read concerning those present when MS fell is that RZ was the only adult, XZ was also there AND there was/were other minor(s) present who was/were not listed in the SW. IMO, MOO, etc.

Given the way the statement was written, if XZ had been the only minor present they would have stated as much. IMO.

My questions:

1. Why the hush-hush? [I think this is where the whole ugly snowball began. IMO. Where will it land and at what additional cost?]

2. Since XZ placed the 911 call, can the Z family/attorney push for the 911 recording to be unsealed?

TIA

If other minors were present, it would have said so. Also, the AR mentions only RZ and XZ in the house at the time of MS's injuries.

MyBelle
09-23-2011, 11:52 PM
Dang, how many people fell over this balcony? New to the case.:waitasec:

just one adorable six year old boy.

Rhyme & Reason
09-23-2011, 11:53 PM
Dang, how many people fell over this balcony? New to the case.:waitasec:

Here is a link to get you up to speed.

http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/index.html

CDS22
09-23-2011, 11:55 PM
Thanks thinkingstraight for setting me straight..lol.. So in reply to the correct post what's tht got to do with Max riding his scooter in the hall??

Are you purposing that because a 6yr old child was warned not to ride the scooter there that when no one was looking(XZ in shower and Rebecca in another bathroom) that a 6 yr old boy wouldn't go right ahead and ride the scooter exactly where he was told not to??

Because it all goes back to a very bad decision made by a little boy in a split second believing it was going to be something fun and it was something dangerous that cost him his life.. These deaths happen hundreds a year and they are no one faults.. Certainly not the guardian who is in the bathroom at the time..

How do you know he rode the scooter down the hallway? Experts don't even claim to know for a fact that he rode a scooter and plunged to his death. In fact, according to the SW, there are experts who believe that wasn't the case at all.

jjenny
09-23-2011, 11:56 PM
But the ICU Chief is a doctor and his conclusion was that he stopped breathing prior to going over the railing. I have no reason to doubt the doctors who performed and interpreted the tests.

JMO

The doctor didn't mention spinal cord damage as basis for his conclusion. Max had extensive spinal cord damage. Spinal cord damage can cause cardiac arrest and brain swelling. <modsnip>, autopsy report clearly states that the cause of death was due to spinal cord contusion.

Dr.Fessel
09-23-2011, 11:56 PM
Yo Doc, welcome to the forum! This is what LE put out as what happened to 6 year old Max. He died as a result of the injuries :( but notice how the person depicted in this animation seems to be an adult.

No kidding that scale is nuts. They are trying to say the banister is about 18 inches high. It would come up to an adults knees.

MyBelle
09-23-2011, 11:56 PM
Surely if that scooter went off the railing crashing to the bottom floor it would have dents and damages too wouldn't it? I think there would be some evidence seen on the scooter if it flew over the railings and crashed below.

IMO

I think there would also be damage seen on the painted woodwork of the railings.

JMO

CDS22
09-23-2011, 11:59 PM
No, the velocity gained within which his head injury along with severe spinal cord injuries was from the great distance of the fall.. It has nothing to do with the velocity gained in theory of the scooter being part of the accident.. The scooter and it's velocity is irrelevant.. As is proven ny LE conclusion drawn and detailed in the demo.. It does not even take into account a scooter, period.. His injuries as consistent with a fall of such great magnitude along with the direction in which his body turned as it was falling.. That is what created the head injury of which you speak.. Nothing to do with a scooter, period.

That's not what the doctor said in the SW.

MyBelle
09-24-2011, 12:00 AM
No kidding that scale is nuts. They are trying to say the banister is about 18 inches high. It would come up to an adults knees.

It is nuts but it is the only scenario that fits with RZ's statement to LE and it still doesn't explain how a scooter also went over the railing and landed on the boy's leg.

JMO

CDS22
09-24-2011, 12:01 AM
If I may, I don't think that's the point CD made. It is the comment that RZ made to LE that Max had been warned not to play with his scooter in the house. It's kind of a strange thing to say at that time. IMO

Particularly since she claimed she didn't know what happened and hadn't heard a thing until the crash.

jjenny
09-24-2011, 12:01 AM
That's not what the doctor said in the SW.

The doctor didn't say anything in the SW regarding spinal cord injuries or velocity needed to obtain such injuries. I don't believe the doctor was aware that Max had an extensive spinal cord injury.

CDS22
09-24-2011, 12:02 AM
It is nuts but it is the only scenario that fits with RZ's statement to LE and it still doesn't explain how a scooter also went over the railing and landed on the boy's leg.

JMO

Particularly since we have her making 2 different statements to police. In the AR she states she doesn't know which way she found him or if she turned him over, and in the SW the officer quotes her as saying she found MS face down and turned him over. If that were the case, why was the scooter across his leg? It just doesn't make sense.

MyBelle
09-24-2011, 12:02 AM
That's not what the doctor said in the SW.

nor did the ME say it in the AR, imo.

Dr.Fessel
09-24-2011, 12:09 AM
Particularly since we have her making 2 different statements to police. In the AR she states she doesn't know which way she found him or if she turned him over, and in the SW the officer quotes her as saying she found MS face down and turned him over. If that were the case, why was the scooter across his leg? It just doesn't make sense. If the scooter was under one and over another to begin with it could be on one leg when he was turned over. In other words it was between his legs to start with. Test it out, I just did and it works.

SophieRose
09-24-2011, 12:11 AM
If the scooter was under one and over another to begin with it could be on one leg when he was turned over. In other words it was between his legs to start with. Test it out, I just did and it works.

Wouldn't she say she found him with the scooter between his legs since that would be a big clue as to what happened?

SmoothOperator
09-24-2011, 12:12 AM
Child abusers often blame the victim. I also believe there is a coverup in regards to Max's death.

JMO


Thats great!! And it's your opinion as is many of ours about Rebecca's case.. So, let's open them up and pull back the curtains and see exactly where the evidence leads.. I believe that Max's will be easily proven to be an accident.. But if I thought for a second it wasn't I know I'd be demanding justice on his behalf..

So, open the case and pull back the curtains on them both.. MOO is that Max's will prove to be accidental and Rebecca's well.. Let's see where the evidence leads either way let's open the cases and look at the evidence.. If so certain Max is not an accident.. Sadly not enough care to want to see justice??

Open them both.. Nothing to hide, right??

Dr.Fessel
09-24-2011, 12:13 AM
Wouldn't she say she found him with the scooter between his legs since that would be a big clue as to what happened? Well was the scooter on his leg?

CDS22
09-24-2011, 12:14 AM
A refresher on what the doctor is credited with saying in the SW:

Direct quote, page 5, from thumbnail 3 of the SW:

"On July 14th, at approximately 1800 hours, I was requested to respond to the Children's Hospital in regard to a pending Protective Services Report that was going to be filed by Jessica Robershaw, Children's Hospital Social Worker.

"During the follow -- during my follow-up investigation with Dr. Brad Peterson, Head of the ICU Trauma, he informed me that over the course of four days of medical testing, no determination could be made on the cause of the cardiac arrest suffered by Shacknai.

"Based on the description of the incident surrounding Shacknai's fall, Dr. Peterson did not feel the visible injuries were consistent with the cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by Shacknai. Dr. Peterson expressed concerns made based on the -- the above factors, suffocation may have occurred prior to Shacknai's fall".

MyBelle
09-24-2011, 12:18 AM
If the scooter was under one and over another to begin with it could be on one leg when he was turned over. In other words it was between his legs to start with. Test it out, I just did and it works.

unfortunately, the adult present could not recall whether or not she turned Max over and told police nobody witnessed the boy's plunge.

JMO

Dr.Fessel
09-24-2011, 12:20 AM
A refresher on what the doctor is credited with saying in the SW:

Direct quote, page 5, from thumbnail 3 of the SW:

"On July 14th, at approximately 1800 hours, I was requested to respond to the Children's Hospital in regard to a pending Protective Services Report that was going to be filed by Jessica Robershaw, Children's Hospital Social Worker.

"During the follow -- during my follow-up investigation with Dr. Brad Peterson, Head of the ICU Trauma, he informed me that over the course of four days of medical testing, no determination could be made on the cause of the cardiac arrest suffered by Shacknai.

"Based on the description of the incident surrounding Shacknai's fall, Dr. Peterson did not feel the visible injuries were consistent with the cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by Shacknai. Dr. Peterson expressed concerns made based on the -- the above factors, suffocation may have occurred prior to Shacknai's fall".

The extent of the visible injuries was not good enough for an accurate diagnosis at that time. The extent of the injuries was not known until an autopsy was done. Then they were visible.

CDS22
09-24-2011, 12:21 AM
I've posted what was said by the doctor in the SW.

Now let's see what was said in the AR:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbZDc3Zjg5ODctZGRjMy00ODVkLTk1YWI tODAxZjAxMzE5OTVl&hl=en

And the accompanying diagram of MS's injuries:

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/shacknai,%20max_report.pdf

Cause of death:

Anoxic/ischemic encephalopathy
Due to resucitated cardiopulmonary arrest
Due to cervical spinal cord contusion
Due to blunt force trauma of head and neck

jjenny
09-24-2011, 12:21 AM
The extent of the visible injuries was not good enough for an accurate diagnosis at that time. The extent of the injuries was not known until an autopsy was done. Then they were visible.

Exactly. Max's neck was not broken. His visible injuries would not explain why he had cardiac arrest. But spinal cord contusion explains brain swelling and cardiac arrest.

SmoothOperator
09-24-2011, 12:22 AM
A refresher on what the doctor is credited with saying in the SW:

Direct quote, page 5, from thumbnail 3 of the SW:

"On July 14th, at approximately 1800 hours, I was requested to respond to the Children's Hospital in regard to a pending Protective Services Report that was going to be filed by Jessica Robershaw, Children's Hospital Social Worker.

"During the follow -- during my follow-up investigation with Dr. Brad Peterson, Head of the ICU Trauma, he informed me that over the course of four days of medical testing, no determination could be made on the cause of the cardiac arrest suffered by Shacknai.

"Based on the description of the incident surrounding Shacknai's fall, Dr. Peterson did not feel the visible injuries were consistent with the cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by Shacknai. Dr. Peterson expressed concerns made based on the -- the above factors, suffocation may have occurred prior to Shacknai's fall".

All of this
Proven in a thorough autopsy to have been wrong.. What are the final findings CDS22?? According to autopsy results??

CDS22
09-24-2011, 12:22 AM
If the scooter was under one and over another to begin with it could be on one leg when he was turned over. In other words it was between his legs to start with. Test it out, I just did and it works.

But you forget that with the force needed to hit the floor from that height, the scooter would not have remained between the boy's legs, if that were the scenario.

IMO

Dr.Fessel
09-24-2011, 12:23 AM
unfortunately, the adult present could not recall whether or not she turned Max over and told police nobody witnessed the boy's plunge.

JMO
I was just going off what the other poster said about her telling an officer she turned him over.

CDS22
09-24-2011, 12:23 AM
All of this
Proven in a thorough autopsy to have been wrong.. What are the final findings CDS22?? According to autopsy results??

Don't you see them posted a few posts up?

CDS22
09-24-2011, 12:25 AM
The extent of the visible injuries was not good enough for an accurate diagnosis at that time. The extent of the injuries was not known until an autopsy was done. Then they were visible.

Actually, that's not true. There's a link from the Mayo Clinic on the first thread that explains how spinal cord injuries are diagnosed. There are all sorts of diagnostic tools available for this.

ETA link:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/spinal-cord-injury/DS00460/DSECTION=tests-and-diagnosis

CDS22
09-24-2011, 12:26 AM
Now, a link about how homicidal smothering is extremely hard to detect:

http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106&Itemid=123

(It's in the last paragraph)

Dr.Fessel
09-24-2011, 12:26 AM
But you forget that with the force needed to hit the floor from that height, the scooter would not have remained between the boy's legs, if that were the scenario.

IMOThe scooter would have just as much chance ending up between his legs as anywhere else.

justbetweenus
09-24-2011, 12:26 AM
The extent of the visible injuries was not good enough for an accurate diagnosis at that time. The extent of the injuries was not known until an autopsy was done. Then they were visible.

Wouldn't they know by CT scans or MRI? This was noted from the dr. 4 days after admission. I appreciate your post. Thanks.

MyBelle
09-24-2011, 12:27 AM
The extent of the visible injuries was not good enough for an accurate diagnosis at that time. The extent of the injuries was not known until an autopsy was done. Then they were visible.

The ICU Chief did four days of testing prior to contacting CPS and police. Of course they would know and had made an accurate diagnosis of injuries by the fourth day. I do not believe an invasive examination of the child's spinal column was made at the autopsy. No need to do so because of all the tests and his death was attended to by physicians.

JMO

MyBelle
09-24-2011, 12:29 AM
The scooter would have just as much chance ending up between his legs as anywhere else.

The animation doesn't include the scooter going over the second floor railing so I guess LE realized it is too far-fetched a theory to be believable.

JMO

Dr.Fessel
09-24-2011, 12:32 AM
Actually, that's not true. There's a link from the Mayo Clinic on the first thread that explains how spinal cord injuries are diagnosed. There are all sorts of diagnostic tools available for this.

ETA link:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/spinal-cord-injury/DS00460/DSECTION=tests-and-diagnosis


Actually it is true. There is no better diagnostic tool then an autopsy.

CDS22
09-24-2011, 12:32 AM
Now here's what I'm wondering. (OPINION ALERT) If Dr. Brad Peterson was correct, and MS was smothered prior to going over the stairs, does that mean the spinal contusion happened when he was resisting being smothered, or did it happen when he went over the stairs? Because if he was unconscious but not dead when he went over the stairs, does that mean he could have been saved if someone hadn't thrown him over in hopes of covering up the smothering? Because they were able to resuscitate MS after 25-30 minutes. So even if the smothering were accidental (and I have a hard time imagining that it could be), wouldn't the cover-up have been murder?

JMO, of course

jjenny
09-24-2011, 12:32 AM
The ICU Chief did four days of testing prior to contacting CPS and police. Of course they would know and had made an accurate diagnosis of injuries by the fourth day. I do not believe an invasive examination of the child's spinal column was made at the autopsy. No need to do so because of all the tests and his death was attended to by physicians.

JMO

Then why didn't the doctor mention spinal cord injuries as a basis for his opinion? The fact is, he didn't. He based his opinion on visible injuries non consistent with brain swelling and cardiac arrest. Said nothing about spinal cord damage. Frankly, if the doctor was aware of the extensive spinal cord damage and yet still didn't believe that could cause cardiac arrest, then why didn't he say so?

Dr.Fessel
09-24-2011, 12:34 AM
The ICU Chief did four days of testing prior to contacting CPS and police. Of course they would know and had made an accurate diagnosis of injuries by the fourth day. I do not believe an invasive examination of the child's spinal column was made at the autopsy. No need to do so because of all the tests and his death was attended to by physicians.

JMO
Of course they examined the spinal cord in the autopsy. They do an autopsy to find out what the person died from. There is no better diagnostic tool.

CDS22
09-24-2011, 12:36 AM
Then why didn't the doctor mention spinal cord injuries as a basis for his opinion? The fact is, he didn't. He based his opinion on visible injuries non consistent with brain swelling and cardiac arrest. Said nothing about spinal cord damage. Frankly, if the doctor was aware of the extensive spinal cord damage and yet still didn't believe that could cause cardiac arrest, then why didn't he say so?

Don't you think his actions in calling CPS and the police do just that?

IMO

jjenny
09-24-2011, 12:38 AM
Of course they examined the spinal cord in the autopsy. They do an autopsy to find out what the person died from. There is no better diagnostic tool.

Not only they examined it, the autopsy includes a neuropathology report showing necrosis of the spinal cord section consistent with cord contusion.

CDS22
09-24-2011, 12:38 AM
Actually it is true. There is no better diagnostic tool then an autopsy.

I'm not disputing how effective autopsies are. I'm disputing the claim that the doctors could not have known about MS's spinal injuries UNTIL they did the autopsy.

It's like saying, "Doctors couldn't know so-and-so died from cancer. They had no clue there was cancer until they did an autopsy". Well, no, there are diagnostic tests besides autopsies to diagnose cancer, just like there are diagnostic tools to diagnose spinal cord contusions. Those tests are listed in the Mayo Clinic link.

CDS22
09-24-2011, 12:40 AM
Another article about spinal cord contusions and how they are diagnosed:

http://www.spineuniverse.com/conditions/spinal-cord-injury/spinal-cord-injury-sci-aftermath-diagnosis

Dr.Fessel
09-24-2011, 12:46 AM
I'm not disputing how effective autopsies are. I'm disputing the claim that the doctors could not have known about MS's spinal injuries UNTIL they did the autopsy.

It's like saying, "Doctors couldn't know so-and-so died from cancer. They had no clue there was cancer until they did an autopsy". Well, no, there are diagnostic tests besides autopsies to diagnose cancer, just like there are diagnostic tools to diagnose spinal cord contusions. Those tests are listed in the Mayo Clinic link.

They would not have known the true extent of the damage until they went in and looked at it. All the other tools can give you a good idea but until you go in and look you don't know for sure.

A biopsy to look at a cancer cell or a blood test to look at a cancer cell is the only positive way to diagnose cancer. My father died of lung cancer, they were sure he had it but they never knew for sure until the autopsy.

CDS22
09-24-2011, 12:50 AM
They would not have known the true extent of the damage until they went in and looked at it. All the other tools can give you a good idea but until you go in and look you don't know for sure.

A biopsy to look at a cancer cell or a blood test to look at a cancer cell is the only positive way to diagnose cancer. My father died of lung cancer, they were sure he had it but they never knew for sure until the autopsy.

Yes, indeed, but the point is that MS still could have been smothered prior to going over the stairs. One doesn't necessarily negate the other.

IMO

Dr.Fessel
09-24-2011, 12:53 AM
Yes, indeed, but the point is that MS still could have been smothered prior to going over the stairs. One doesn't necessarily negate the other.

IMO

No, but evidently once they got in there and saw how extensive the initial damage was the before smothering went out the window and they saw why his heart stopped.

CDS22
09-24-2011, 12:54 AM
Something else to think about: MS's spinal cord contusion was very severe. Most falls down the stairs or from the railing don't result in fatal injuries. (Link is on original thread). So what could have stopped him from having control of his head and neck muscles so that when he landed on a carpeted surface, he sustained whiplash severe enough to die from (link on thread one about why whiplash is almost never fatal)? Could it be that he was unconscious (from smothering) and that is why he couldn't break his fall with his hands or control his neck muscles to keep from hitting the floor that hard and snapping back?

JMO

CDS22
09-24-2011, 12:54 AM
No, but evidently once they got in there and saw how extensive the initial damage was the before smothering went out the window and they saw why his heart stopped.

One doesn't negate the other.

IMO

Dr.Fessel
09-24-2011, 01:02 AM
Something else to think about: MS's spinal cord contusion was very severe. Most falls down the stairs or from the railing don't result in fatal injuries. (Link is on original thread). So what could have stopped him from having control of his head and neck muscles so that when he landed on a carpeted surface, he sustained whiplash severe enough to die from (link on thread one about why whiplash is almost never fatal)? Could it be that he was unconscious (from smothering) and that is why he couldn't break his fall with his hands or control his neck muscles to keep from hitting the floor that hard and snapping back?

JMOTangled up with a scooter, you don't have time to get your hands down, tangled up in a chandelier, disoriented, reaction time 1/4 of a second and probably about that long of a fall.

CDS22
09-24-2011, 01:02 AM
What part of Max' brain was damaged? What part of his head hit the floor?

This link has a diagram:

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/shacknai,%20max_report.pdf

CDS22
09-24-2011, 01:03 AM
Tangled up with a scooter, you don't have time to get your hands down, tangled up in a chandelier, disoriented, reaction time 1/4 of a second and probably about that long of a fall.

There is no proof he was tangled up in a scooter. In fact, the LE illustration of the fall excludes it.

Dr.Fessel
09-24-2011, 01:05 AM
There is no proof he was tangled up in a scooter. In fact, the LE illustration of the fall excludes it. Well I thought someone said the scooter was found on his leg?

jjenny
09-24-2011, 01:06 AM
There is no proof he was tangled up in a scooter. In fact, the LE illustration of the fall excludes it.

It doesn't exclude it. It simply doesn't show it at all, even though it was found across the shin. So clearly the scooter was there in real life, even if it's not in the illustration.

jjenny
09-24-2011, 01:06 AM
Well I thought someone said the scooter was found on his leg?

Yes, it was.

CDS22
09-24-2011, 01:10 AM
Well I thought someone said the scooter was found on his leg?

Yes. The AR says it was laying on his leg. But the police exclude it from their diagram.

CDS22
09-24-2011, 01:11 AM
It doesn't exclude it. It simply doesn't show it at all, even though it was found across the shin. So clearly the scooter was there in real life, even if it's not in the illustration.

If it fails to show the scooter in the diagram, that means it is excluded from the diagram.

MyBelle
09-24-2011, 01:12 AM
I've posted what was said by the doctor in the SW.

Now let's see what was said in the AR:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbZDc3Zjg5ODctZGRjMy00ODVkLTk1YWI tODAxZjAxMzE5OTVl&hl=en

And the accompanying diagram of MS's injuries:

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/shacknai,%20max_report.pdf

Cause of death:

Anoxic/ischemic encephalopathy
Due to resucitated cardiopulmonary arrest
Due to cervical spinal cord contusion
Due to blunt force trauma of head and neck

BBM. The ME notes under his opinion that this was radiologically indicated and usually caused by lack of oxygen circulated to brain/heart. So he agrees with the ICU chief.

He goes on to say because it was also possible that a face-first fall of such severity could cause cardiac arrest, he ruled it an accident.

If this is what JS wanted the AG to review, I can't say that I blame him.

JMO

Carpe Pacem
09-24-2011, 01:15 AM
Call me dullwitted, but I can't grasp why some believe that this poor little fellow was smothered by RZ. What motive would she have had to do something so utterly heinous?

My heart does ache for his parents and their unimaginable loss, and I hope his case is reopened and resolved to their satisfaction.

CDS22
09-24-2011, 01:15 AM
BBM. The ME notes under his opinion that this was radiologically indicated and usually caused by lack of oxygen circulated to brain/heart. So he agrees with the ICU chief.

He goes on to say because it was also possible that a face-first fall of such severity could cause cardiac arrest, he ruled it an accident.

If this is what JS wanted the AG to review, I can't say that I blame him.

JMO

Thank you for spelling that out. That's why I posted both the SW and AG medical findings, to show that they do not contradict each other, and in fact, enforce each other.

MyBelle
09-24-2011, 01:16 AM
Actually it is true. There is no better diagnostic tool then an autopsy.

Not when the body on the table is missing most of its organs. The ME said he relied on all the testing done at both hospitals, radiology results, the LE reports. About the only thing the ME collected and tested was blood.

JMO

MyBelle
09-24-2011, 01:20 AM
Call me dullwitted, but I can't grasp why some believe that this poor little fellow was smothered by RZ. What motive would she have had to do something so utterly heinous?

My heart does ache for his parents and their unimaginable loss, and I hope his case is reopened and resolved to their satisfaction.

I don't consider you dullwitted but I do wonder why you think anyone who kills a child has to have a motive. I certainly don't believe Max's death was a premeditated murder but I do believe if his death was truly an accident, there would be reasonable explanations for scooters and balls and broken chandeliers.

Don't some people just lash out at children out of anger, frustration, jealousy?

JMO

CDS22
09-24-2011, 01:21 AM
Call me dullwitted, but I can't grasp why some believe that this poor little fellow was smothered by RZ. What motive would she have had to do something so utterly heinous?

My heart does ache for his parents and their unimaginable loss, and I hope his case is reopened and resolved to their satisfaction.

Going by evidence alone. The most obvious one being the fact that the top doctor of the pediatric ICU at Rady's thinks it (links above).

Then I have my own opinion. Think about the position the smotherer would be in above the victim, and where the hands would be - one over the nose and one over the neck or chest. MS had marks on both his nose and clavicle, one on one side of his nose, and the other on the opposite side of his clavicle, which would suggest two hands from one person holding him down over the nose on one side, and over the clavicle on the other.

It's hard to imagine WHY someone would want to hurt that beautiful little boy, but unfortunately, child abuse happens all the time.

JMO

CDS22
09-24-2011, 01:23 AM
I don't consider you dullwitted but I do wonder why you think anyone who kills a child has to have a motive. I certainly don't believe Max's death was a premeditated murder but I do believe if his death was truly an accident, there would be reasonable explanations for scooters and balls and broken chandeliers.

Don't some people just lash out at children out of anger, frustration, jealousy?

JMO

Particularly if someone was already upset and frustrated with the two older siblings who had left that morning.

JMO

MyBelle
09-24-2011, 01:25 AM
The scooter would have just as much chance ending up between his legs as anywhere else.

The problem is explaning how the scooter made it over the railing.

JMO

Rhyme & Reason
09-24-2011, 01:27 AM
Wouldn't she say she found him with the scooter between his legs since that would be a big clue as to what happened?

No, doc said if it was between his legs when he landed, when RZ rolled him over then it could end up on one leg.

SunnieRN
09-24-2011, 01:29 AM
If other minors were present, it would have said so. Also, the AR mentions only RZ and XZ in the house at the time of MS's injuries.

Not quote true. We have found a LOT of inconsistencies in LE records/statements, during the coarse of this case.

It is nuts but it is the only scenario that fits with RZ's statement to LE and it still doesn't explain how a scooter also went over the railing and landed on the boy's leg.

JMO

An accident is just that and can often not be explained. If Max went over the railing, on his scooter, it had to be over the low area as Iwannaknow mapped out for us. It was the only area where the bannister/railing was low enough.

A refresher on what the doctor is credited with saying in the SW:

Direct quote, page 5, from thumbnail 3 of the SW:

"On July 14th, at approximately 1800 hours, I was requested to respond to the Children's Hospital in regard to a pending Protective Services Report that was going to be filed by Jessica Robershaw, Children's Hospital Social Worker.

"During the follow -- during my follow-up investigation with Dr. Brad Peterson, Head of the ICU Trauma, he informed me that over the course of four days of medical testing, no determination could be made on the cause of the cardiac arrest suffered by Shacknai.

"Based on the description of the incident surrounding Shacknai's fall, Dr. Peterson did not feel the visible injuries were consistent with the cardiac arrest and brain swelling experienced by Shacknai. Dr. Peterson expressed concerns made based on the -- the above factors, suffocation may have occurred prior to Shacknai's fall".

Every time you have posted this, the words remain constant. "Visible Injuries'.

Call me dullwitted, but I can't grasp why some believe that this poor little fellow was smothered by RZ. What motive would she have had to do something so utterly heinous?

My heart does ache for his parents and their unimaginable loss, and I hope his case is reopened and resolved to their satisfaction.

Not dullwitted, I will call you logical. You know the saying. The easiest answer is usually the correct answer!

MyBelle
09-24-2011, 01:29 AM
Thank you for spelling that out. That's why I posted both the SW and AG medical findings, to show that they do not contradict each other, and in fact, enforce each other.


Thanks for posting it. I think the ME simply wrote a report to reflect an accident. Suffocation would have been a hard sell as an accident but I bet the boy's mother has her own expert analyze it.

JMO

SunnieRN
09-24-2011, 01:30 AM
Particularly if someone was already upset and frustrated with the two older siblings who had left that morning.

JMO

Who was 'upset already'?

MyBelle
09-24-2011, 01:34 AM
Particularly if someone was already upset and frustrated with the two older siblings who had left that morning.

JMO

Teens being teens. If the kids were there to spend time with their dad and brother, I do wonder if they resented Dad's girlfriend adding her little sister to their space.

JMO

justbetweenus
09-24-2011, 01:34 AM
I don't consider you dullwitted but I do wonder why you think anyone who kills a child has to have a motive. I certainly don't believe Max's death was a premeditated murder but I do believe if his death was truly an accident, there would be reasonable explanations for scooters and balls and broken chandeliers.

Don't some people just lash out at children out of anger, frustration, jealousy?

JMO

This is a good post. Makes you think.

Rhyme & Reason
09-24-2011, 01:40 AM
Not when the body on the table is missing most of its organs. The ME said he relied on all the testing done at both hospitals, radiology results, the LE reports. About the only thing the ME collected and tested was blood.

JMO

I wouldn't say he was missing MOST of his organs for goodness sake. Everything the ME needed to look at was there.

MyBelle
09-24-2011, 01:45 AM
I wouldn't say he was missing MOST of his organs for goodness sake. Everything the ME needed to look at was there.

I am just going by what the ME stated in his opinion. He made it clear he relied on the hosptial scans, testing, notes, LE reports.

JMO

Rhyme & Reason
09-24-2011, 01:46 AM
Call me dullwitted, but I can't grasp why some believe that this poor little fellow was smothered by RZ. What motive would she have had to do something so utterly heinous?

My heart does ache for his parents and their unimaginable loss, and I hope his case is reopened and resolved to their satisfaction.

Right, she had nothing to gain by killing Max and everything to lose. BTW, you are absolutely not dullwitted :D

CDS22
09-24-2011, 01:47 AM
Right, she had nothing to gain my killing Max and everything to lose. BTW, you are absolutely not dullwitted :D

So if she did kill him, and had "everything to lose", that might just explain why she killed herself.

JMO

MyBelle
09-24-2011, 01:51 AM
Right, she had nothing to gain by killing Max and everything to lose. BTW, you are absolutely not dullwitted :D

In the end, she did lose everything so I'm not understanding your point.

PeteJ
09-24-2011, 01:52 AM
RZ had no motive to hurt MS. That is absurd.

MyBelle
09-24-2011, 01:53 AM
So if she did kill him, and had "everything to lose", that might just explain why she killed herself.

JMO

I don't believe her going over a second floor balcony is just a coincidence.

jjenny
09-24-2011, 01:55 AM
Not when the body on the table is missing most of its organs. The ME said he relied on all the testing done at both hospitals, radiology results, the LE reports. About the only thing the ME collected and tested was blood.

JMO

Have you even read the autopsy report? I presume you did. Then why are you claiming that "about the only thing ME collected and tested was blood?" Clearly that is false.

SophieRose
09-24-2011, 01:56 AM
No, doc said if it was between his legs when he landed, when RZ rolled him over then it could end up on one leg.

I'm saying why then didn't she tell investigators she found him with the scooter between his legs.

jjenny
09-24-2011, 01:57 AM
BBM. The ME notes under his opinion that this was radiologically indicated and usually caused by lack of oxygen circulated to brain/heart. So he agrees with the ICU chief.

He goes on to say because it was also possible that a face-first fall of such severity could cause cardiac arrest, he ruled it an accident.

If this is what JS wanted the AG to review, I can't say that I blame him.

JMO

Cardiac arrest was not due to facial injuries, but to spinal cord contusion.

Rhyme & Reason
09-24-2011, 01:58 AM
In the end, she did lose everything so I'm not understanding your point.

Exactly my point. Why would she kill him then kill herself, just to lose everything anyway.

bessie
09-24-2011, 02:01 AM
Not when the body on the table is missing most of its organs. The ME said he relied on all the testing done at both hospitals, radiology results, the LE reports. About the only thing the ME collected and tested was blood.

JMO
The AR contains a complete narrative by the pathologist, Dr. Lucas, including an examination of the skull, scalp, brain and a 27.5 cm section of the spinal cord.

CDS22
09-24-2011, 02:03 AM
Exactly my point. Why would she kill him then kill herself, just to lose everything anyway.

Let's say she killed him by accident, then tried to cover it up because she felt she would lose it all if found out. Then more and more people kept asking questions (the LE called her 5x's according to recent phone records that the Zahau family lawyer released), DS's twin sister wanted to ask her about MS's injuries, she wasn't allowed to visit the hospital, and she felt pressured and like her world was caving in. So with everything lost, what was she to do? In her mind, suicide.

JMO

CDS22
09-24-2011, 02:05 AM
Cardiac arrest was not due to facial injuries, but to spinal cord contusion.

But a face-first fall can produce brain injuries, and in extreme cases, spinal cord contusion. The doctor didn't think those two jived together, and I personally think he was right.

JMO

SunnieRN
09-24-2011, 02:06 AM
I don't believe her going over a second floor balcony is just a coincidence.

Neither do I. Not at all a coincidence.

jjenny
09-24-2011, 02:07 AM
But a face-first fall can produce brain injuries, and in extreme cases, spinal cord contusion. The doctor didn't think those two jived together, and I personally think he was right.

JMO

Only the doctor hasn't mentioned a word about spinal cord contusion.

SunnieRN
09-24-2011, 02:09 AM
But a face-first fall can produce brain injuries, and in extreme cases, spinal cord contusion. The doctor didn't think those two jived together, and I personally think he was right.

JMO

Lets see. Let's break this statement down.

But a face-first fall can produce brain injuries, and in extreme cases, spinal cord contusion. So you are saying this, or saying that someone else states this fact?


The doctor didn't think those two jived together, and I personally think he was right. If your first statement is true, this makes no sense.

elfie
09-24-2011, 02:09 AM
No, the velocity gained within which his head injury along with severe spinal cord injuries was from the great distance of the fall.. It has nothing to do with the velocity gained in theory of the scooter being part of the accident.. The scooter and it's velocity is irrelevant.. As is proven ny LE conclusion drawn and detailed in the demo.. It does not even take into account a scooter, period.. His injuries as consistent with a fall of such great magnitude along with the direction in which his body turned as it was falling.. That is what created the head injury of which you speak.. Nothing to do with a scooter, period.

Whatever velocity gained by the speed of scooter (if this is what happened) after an abrupt stop at the point off the first stair where the banister dips, Max's momentum would continue forward at that velocity, possibly forcefully enough against the handlebar to pivot on the scooter over the railing, launching both he and the scooter into the chandelier and then crash to the floor.

But, yes, the injuries sustained would have been from the landing(s), plural if he hit the opposite banister first .

CDS22
09-24-2011, 02:12 AM
Only the doctor hasn't mentioned a word about spinal cord contusion.

He didn't mention the abrasions either. He merely said the visible injuries (and spinal cord contusions are visible via the diagnostic tests I linked to in the Mayo Clinic link) didn't match what was happening with Max. It's almost impossible to die from whiplash (link is on the first Max thread), yet Max did. Kids who fall from or off of stairwells or railings don't die of spinal cord contusions. That's the kind of injury you'd see in a car wreck if the car was speeding and the child had no seat belt on. That's what a medical friend said. Someone else here (Karen M, I believe) said a medical expert friend likened it to a train wreck. No bump on a carpeted floor could produce a spinal cord contusion. That's what the doctor was saying.

Again, a spinal cord contusion is a visible injury (see Mayo link).

IMO

jjenny
09-24-2011, 02:13 AM
He didn't mention the abrasions either. He merely said the visible injuries (and spinal cord contusions are visible via the diagnostic tests I linked to in the Mayo Clinic link) didn't match what was happening with Max. It's almost impossible to die from whiplash (link is on the first Max thread), yet Max did. Kids who fall from or off of stairwells or railings don't die of spinal cord contusions. That's the kind of injury you'd see in a car wreck if the car was speeding and the child had no seat belt on. That's what a medical friend said. Someone else here (Karen M, I believe) said a medical expert friend likened it to a train wreck. No bump on a carpeted floor could produce a spinal cord contusion. That's what the doctor was saying.

Again, a spinal cord contusion is a visible injury (see Mayo link).

IMO
Not for a second do I believe the doctor was saying anything of the sort. Not even close.

Rhyme & Reason
09-24-2011, 02:19 AM
I'm saying why then didn't she tell investigators she found him with the scooter between his legs.

OK, I see what you're asking. I really don't know why she wouldn't tell them that. As it is, she apparently did not even remember if she turned him over or not. IDK. What Dr. Fessel said makes a lot of sense to me.

CDS22
09-24-2011, 02:21 AM
OK, I see what you're asking. I really don't know why she wouldn't tell them that. As it is, she apparently did not even remember if she turned him over or not. IDK. What Dr. Fessel said makes a lot of sense to me.

Except she told a different police officer (see SW, third thumbnail) that she DID turn him over.

SunnieRN
09-24-2011, 02:24 AM
He didn't mention the abrasions either. He merely said the visible injuries (and spinal cord contusions are visible via the diagnostic tests I linked to in the Mayo Clinic link) didn't match what was happening with Max. It's almost impossible to die from whiplash (link is on the first Max thread), yet Max did. Kids who fall from or off of stairwells or railings don't die of spinal cord contusions. That's the kind of injury you'd see in a car wreck if the car was speeding and the child had no seat belt on. That's what a medical friend said. Someone else here (Karen M, I believe) said a medical expert friend likened it to a train wreck. No bump on a carpeted floor could produce a spinal cord contusion. That's what the doctor was saying.

Again, a spinal cord contusion is a visible injury (see Mayo link).

IMO

No disrespect, however I will take the word of an ME, who has actually seen the damage first hand, than from a 'medical friend' that said something to you, or even two friends, that did not take part in the medical autopsy.

Do you know that the spinal cord is internal? That it is surrounded by the spinal column. That a fracture does not mean that the spinal cord is out of the body (like someone said earlier today)?

Also, please link to where the doctor said the carpeted floor could not produce Max's injury.

Betty P
09-24-2011, 02:25 AM
Here's a question that has been bothering me: If, as some claim, Rebecca killed Max, why would doctors and the ME go to such great lengths to cover up that fact and report a different cause of death?

Rebecca was not a wealthy or powerful person. She had no incentives to offer these medical professionals to risk their careers to cover up a crime.

If we're to believe that Max's COD has been changed, covered up or wrongly reported, how do we explain the motivation of those involved?

CDS22
09-24-2011, 02:28 AM
Here's a question that has been bothering me: If, as some claim, Rebecca killed Max, why would doctors and the ME go to such great lengths to cover up that fact and report a different cause of death?

Rebecca was not a wealthy or powerful person. She had no incentives to offer these medical professionals to risk their careers to cover up a crime.

If we're to believe that Max's COD has been changed, covered up or wrongly reported, how do we explain the motivation of those involved?

I don't believe the ME covered up anything. I believe the ME's report is consistent with Dr. Brad Peterson's remarks in the SW. I've posted a link in this thread that showed homicidal suffocation is difficult to prove in an autopsy. I think that RZ's suicide (and I now believe it was a suicide) might have played a part in them not going any further. That's just my opinion.

JBean
09-24-2011, 02:28 AM
when you guys start talking about each other you are out of bounds.
if you have recently had a post removed you either were discussing other members and their opinions rather than the case or you quoted someone that was doing that.

There is a lot of tit for tat and passive aggressive back and forth in here. It has got to stop. The mods are volunteer and it is not fair to make them work over time in this forum.

Thank you and this post lands at random.

Carpe Pacem
09-24-2011, 02:38 AM
After all the opinions and/or facts presented in support of a smothering murder, I can still not see it happening that way.

I feel truly sorry for the children of the extended Shaknai family, and applaud their performing mitzvahs, i.e., the African trip. That is goodness.

I hope this case will be reopened.

The people who aren't at ease with the coroner's pronouncements, seem to have a very strong emotional investment. Reopening the case could give them a chance of attaining emotional peace in regard to their many concerns.

MyBelle
09-24-2011, 02:45 AM
The AR contains a complete narrative by the pathologist, Dr. Lucas, including an examination of the skull, scalp, brain and a 27.5 cm section of the spinal cord.

Well, I know the ME collected the body but I thought we were not supposed to try to analyze or debate the actual examinations? That's why I just mentioned the part he noted was his general opinion. From my take on his narrative (I'm not an MD) he didn't find anything remarkable beyond what the ICU doctors had already determined. He seemed to concur with the ICU doctors and their radiologic analysis and commented in his narrative on the spinal cord contusion and no fractures. I just don't see either set of doctors as being wrong as others suggest.

JMO

SunnieRN
09-24-2011, 02:49 AM
Here's a question that has been bothering me: If, as some claim, Rebecca killed Max, why would doctors and the ME go to such great lengths to cover up that fact and report a different cause of death?

Rebecca was not a wealthy or powerful person. She had no incentives to offer these medical professionals to risk their careers to cover up a crime.

If we're to believe that Max's COD has been changed, covered up or wrongly reported, how do we explain the motivation of those involved?

This is a brilliant post! Why would LE cover up a murder performed by Rebecca?

MyBelle
09-24-2011, 02:49 AM
After all the opinions and/or facts presented in support of a smothering murder, I can still not see it happening that way.

I feel truly sorry for the children of the extended Shaknai family, and applaud their performing mitzvahs, i.e., the African trip. That is goodness.

I hope this case will be reopened.

The people who aren't at ease with the coroner's pronouncements, seem to have a very strong emotional investment. Reopening the case could give them a chance of attaining emotional peace in regard to their many concerns.

Technically, there are two cases with the same ME. I don't know that either case needs to be reopened by LE just to challenge the ME's findings. I read his opinions and came away with the belief that he is fair and respectful of challenges to his conclusions, especially if those challenges are made by experts in his field that may be hired for a second opinion.

JMO

MyBelle
09-24-2011, 02:56 AM
Here's a question that has been bothering me: If, as some claim, Rebecca killed Max, why would doctors and the ME go to such great lengths to cover up that fact and report a different cause of death?

Rebecca was not a wealthy or powerful person. She had no incentives to offer these medical professionals to risk their careers to cover up a crime.

If we're to believe that Max's COD has been changed, covered up or wrongly reported, how do we explain the motivation of those involved?

I do not believe Max's death was in any way wrongly reported or covered up by investigators but the family might not share my opinion and that is how it should be.

I have never been of the opinion that doctors, the ME, all LE, or anybody else involved in the analysis and investigation have covered-up or been less than honest in either of the deaths but I'm also on the outside, looking in.

JMO

Betty P
09-24-2011, 02:58 AM
This is a brilliant post! Why would LE cover up a murder performed by Rebecca?

IMO, I can't imagine the doctors or ME's doing that, particularly when it's a child's death that has already received scrutiny from social services. Nor do I see them making a mistake or doing careless work when there's so much at stake.

IMO

Rhyme & Reason
09-24-2011, 03:02 AM
Let's say she killed him by accident, then tried to cover it up because she felt she would lose it all if found out. Then more and more people kept asking questions (the LE called her 5x's according to recent phone records that the Zahau family lawyer released), DS's twin sister wanted to ask her about MS's injuries, she wasn't allowed to visit the hospital, and she felt pressured and like her world was caving in. So with everything lost, what was she to do? In her mind, suicide.

JMO

So do you think she "accidentally" smothered him?

sorrell skye
09-24-2011, 03:11 AM
The ICU Chief did four days of testing prior to contacting CPS and police. Of course they would know and had made an accurate diagnosis of injuries by the fourth day. I do not believe an invasive examination of the child's spinal column was made at the autopsy. No need to do so because of all the tests and his death was attended to by physicians. JMO

An examination of the spinal cord WAS performed at autopsy.

AR (page 14):

Also received is a 27.5 cm long specimen of spinal cord in its dural sheath.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbZDc3Zjg5ODctZGRjMy00ODVkLTk1YWI tODAxZjAxMzE5OTVl&hl=en

Additional postmortem spinal cord examination is described on page 15 of the AR. Not only was the cervical spinal cord examined, but the thoracic & lumbar spinal cord, as well.

SunnieRN
09-24-2011, 03:48 AM
An examination of the spinal cord WAS performed at autopsy.

AR (page 14):

Also received is a 27.5 cm long specimen of spinal cord in its dural sheath.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbZDc3Zjg5ODctZGRjMy00ODVkLTk1YWI tODAxZjAxMzE5OTVl&hl=en

Additional postmortem spinal cord examination is described on page 15 of the AR. Not only was the cervical spinal cord examined, but the thoracic & lumbar spinal cord, as well.

That sounds very thorough to me! An autopsy is the only way to see some things. Like Alzheimers. It can only be truly diagnosed at autopsy.

SunnieRN
09-24-2011, 03:55 AM
Exactly my point. Why would she kill him then kill herself, just to lose everything anyway.

I think Rebecca loved Max a lot! You can see it in pictures, by the way she looks at him. I do not believe there is any way she would ever be able to hurt Max.

She took him with her to the gym, even though she didn't have to. I even wonder if the picture of Max, with his Mom, GS and ES is from him being at his Dad's home and Rebecca painting the figures on his tummy?

StJohn
09-24-2011, 04:54 AM
This is a brilliant post! Why would LE cover up a murder performed by Rebecca?

Conversely, we could ask the same question about LE's conclusion that RN's death was a suicide, not a murder. Why would LE cover up a murder and call it a suicide?

Rhyme & Reason
09-24-2011, 05:43 AM
This is a brilliant post! Why would LE cover up a murder performed by Rebecca?

Conversely, we could ask the same question about LE's conclusion that RN's death was a suicide, not a murder. Why would LE cover up a murder and call it a suicide?

Taking this line from BettyP's post...

Rebecca was not a wealthy or powerful person. She had no incentives to offer these medical professionals to risk their careers to cover up a crime.

greenpalm
09-24-2011, 08:05 AM
It's very clear to me. Dr. Peterson was faced with a bizarre set of symptoms, and rightfully wanted Max's injury investigated for foul play. Based on the diagnostic information he had at the time, Max might have been suffocated. The autopsy, performed after the search warrants were issued, was superior to any previous diagnostics, and supersedes any conclusions drawn based on the prior and inferior external exam. No doctors were wrong, or mistaken, but the ME was able to cut Max open and actually look, thereby rendering the suffocation theory irrelevant and outdated.

WE are seeing the search warrant AFTER the autopsy, but that's not the way it occurred. The Search warrant is not really new info, only new to us, it's newly released, but outdated and superseded by the better more accurate autopsy, which did not find evidence of asphyxiation.

As far as the forensic pathology article (http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106&Itemid=123) about homicidal suffocation being difficult to detect, it doesn't say that asphyxia is difficult to detect. It says it might be hard to determine said asphyxia as homicidal:

Internal: Blood-stained frothy fluid is present in air-passages. Mucus may be found at the back of the mouth. Slight acute emphysema and oedema of the lungs with scattered areas of atelectasis, petechiae and congestion are the major findings. The internal organs are deeply congested and sometimes show small haemorrhages.

Homicidal smothering is extremely difficult to detect. The autopsy may reveal asphyxia, but there may not be any corroborative medical evidence to prove foul play. The pathological changes must be interpreted keeping in view the medical history of the deceased, the scene of death, and the specific circumstances surrounding the death.

But Max's autopsy (http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/shacknai,%20max_report.pdf) didn't reveal asphyxia at all.

Regarding how Max got his whiplash, he hit face first, possibly on the lower banister, as is illustrated in the SD model of the accident, (which admittedly has some problems) hitting his face caused his spinal contusion, and the bruises and abrasions on his face.

Paladine
09-24-2011, 08:29 AM
I admit, I've got some catching up to do...but a brief read of some comments brings to mind some thoughts.

I know about spinal cord injury. My late husband was quadriplegic; I spent years of my life reading and seeing first hand other cases as they entered and exited the ICU/Neuro Observation Unit/Rehab.

One question seems to be: did Max having trouble breathing/was he 'smothered'?

From personal experience: Depending on the level of the 'contusion', he may have had trouble breathing and he may have lacked breath before he died...it doesn't mean, in my mind, someone 'smothered' him. It may mean his injury was so high it interfered with his breathing capacity/nerves/diaphragm...I've seen it happen in an ICU. In a bed next to my husbands, the man never made it. Too high an injury and already in breathing distress before ambulance arrived...his wife told me.

Just a thought as I peruse your PLENTIFUL posts...:)

thinkingstraight
09-24-2011, 12:32 PM
I'm saying why then didn't she tell investigators she found him with the scooter between his legs.

Thanks wasn't enough!!! :goodpost:

thinkingstraight
09-24-2011, 12:48 PM
Taking this line from BettyP's post...

Rebecca was not a wealthy or powerful person. She had no incentives to offer these medical professionals to risk their careers to cover up a crime.

How much money and power do you think he really has? If he had so much power, why didn't he just have Rebecca arrested right on the spot?

KarenM
09-24-2011, 12:58 PM
Since my old post was quoted (and misquoted) last night, I want to clarify something. The medical professional I consulted never said train wreck was the only possible way to result in an unplugged spinal cord from one's brain stem.

He mentioned several possibilities. One of them was falling. Several scenarios he mentioned: head first fall with great momentum; hanging on the neck after dropping a significant distance; hit by a train (and maybe a very bad car accident). He also said that even in the above three scenarios, most people still didn't end up with unplugged spinal cords. He didn't believe a small woman like Rebecca was capable of inducing such a rare injury on MS by hands.

In terms of the suffocation theory, the AR did not show any support for that. I still believe it was logical for Dr. Patterson to have an initial suspicion of suffocation due to MS's cardiac arrest and swelling brain because there was no way for him to immediately know the extent of MS's spinal cord injury (i.e. the shredding of his spinal cord above C3), which would naturally cause cardiac arrest and swelling brain. On the other hand, suffocation is a much more common cause for the observed cardiac arrest and swelling brain. But whatever Dr Patterson thought really does not matter. Cause of death is not his expertise. The forensic pathologist has the final say. And there was no evidence in the autopsy to support a suffocation theory. The AR killed the suffocation theory, period.

I also learned more information about suffocation versus spinal cord injury after further consulting with the same medical professional. You can read if you don't think it is too boring.

Suffocation and a shredded spinal cord above C3 (the latter was confirmed in Max's autopsy) can both cause cardiac arrest and brain swelling. But they are discernable upon autopsy. Suffocation takes some time for cardiac arrest to happen (no one loses heart beat immediately upon being suffocated), while a shredded spinal cord above C3 will cause an instant cardiac arrest.

As a result of the above mentioned difference, suffocation victim's heart will keep pumping blood and the blood pressure does not drop instantly. That's why "If suffocation or smothering has taken place then the eyes of the deceased will be bloodshot; this is a common way of accurately determining that one of these methods has been employed." (http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/suffocating-and-smothering.html)


A shredded spinal cord above C3 (this was what Max had and was confirmed by the physical examination of Max's spinal cord in the hands of the forensic pathologist) will cause an instant cardiac arrest. As a result, the victim almost loses blood pressure immediately. There will NOT be any blood shot (petachiae) in the victim's eyes during autopsy examination. On Page 8 of Max's autopsy report, it says "the eyes have brown irides, glistening corneae, and conjunctivae without hemorrhage, petechae, or yellow discoloration". The lack of conjunctivae hemorrhage, petechae (in layperson's words, blood shot) indicates Max was not suffocated or smothered. That's why the forensic pathologist's final conclusion was "anoxic/ischemic encephalopathy due to resuscitated cardiopulmonary arrest due to cervical spinal cord contusion due to blunt force trauma of head and neck".

Now let’s compare this to RZ’s AR. RZ died of hanging (essentially the same mechanism as suffocation). Her AR says “There are many petechiae on the upper and lower palpebral conjunctivae, bilaterally. They are dense on the left upper palpebral conjunctiva, and there are larger petachiae on the right lower palpebral conjunctiva.” This is a death consistent with strangulation/suffocation and the AR certainly shows so.

In my opinion, the initial suffocation theory did not prove Rebecca or someone else suffocated Max because the AR proved it to be false. However, it does make RZ’s death more suspicious because we now know at least at one time, those who were close to Max thought Max’s death involved foul play. This does not prove anyone did anything upon this suspicion. But it does increase the likelihood of a motive.

Max's AR: https://doc-10-14-docsviewer.googleusercontent.com/viewer/securedownload/dsn1aovipa7l846lsfcf94nedj8q2p4u/f7rkje1hqrdrp5u1gpjae5j3n0pgb6sd/1316880900000/ZXhwbG9yZXI=/AGZ5hq8BgbJY1gwaOYx83cPOdNw6/MEI1NE10ZlhseFJKYlpEYzNaamc1T0RjdFpHUmpNeTAwT0RWa0 xUazFZV0l0T0RBeFpqQXhNekU1T1RWbA==?a=gp&filename=max_autopsy.pdf&chan=EAAAADd31XzJzvta%2B2Zxf5UnrEMiRBAXReo/1/aClWvsTHtX&docid=2d26e1b2393b264ec504a1068c4026ed%7C2aa850319 a88e924b47ca245e4919382&sec=AHSqidYErTZDtzmPmUOsTxL0inAsEAlD-dPIFLqUMTH9cQU7BGTpah7_9sgjCOIbE0yvZEUX1wUa&nonce=nevrdkmaor8og&user=AGZ5hq8BgbJY1gwaOYx83cPOdNw6&hash=aghdpvm3knulrlepa9ouso57cqs08c3n

greenpalm
09-24-2011, 01:23 PM
Since my old post was quoted (and misquoted) last night, I want to clarify something. The medical professional I consulted never said train wreck was the only possible way to result in an unplugged spinal cord from one's brain stem.

He mentioned several possibilities. One of them was falling. Several scenarios he mentioned: head first fall with great momentum; hanging on the neck after dropping a significant distance; hit by a train (and maybe a very bad car accident). He also said that even in the above three scenarios, most people still didn't end up with unplugged spinal cords. He didn't believe a small woman like Rebecca was capable of inducing such a rare injury on MS by hands.

In terms of the suffocation theory, the AR did not show any support for that. I still believe it was logical for Dr. Patterson to have an initial suspicion of suffocation due to MS's cardiac arrest and swelling brain because there was no way for him to immediately know the extent of MS's spinal cord injury (i.e. the shredding of his spinal cord above C3), which would naturally cause cardiac arrest and swelling brain. On the other hand, suffocation is a much more common cause for the observed cardiac arrest and swelling brain. But whatever Dr Patterson thought really does not matter. Cause of death is not his expertise. The forensic pathologist has the final say. And there was no evidence in the autopsy to support a suffocation theory. The AR killed the suffocation theory, period.

I also learned more information about suffocation versus spinal cord injury after further consulting with the same medical professional. You can read if you don't think it is too boring.

Suffocation and a shredding spinal cord above C3 (as confirmed in Max's autopsy) can both cause cardiac arrest and brain swelling. But they are discernable upon autopsy. Suffocation takes some time for cardiac arrest to happen (no one loses heart beat immediately upon being suffocated), while a shredded spinal cord above C3 will cause an instant cardiac arrest. As a result, suffocation victim's heart will keep pumping blood and the blood pressure does not drop instantly. That's why "If suffocation or smothering has taken place then the eyes of the deceased will be bloodshot; this is a common way of accurately determining that one of these methods has been employed." (http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/suffocating-and-smothering.html)


A shredded spinal cord above C3 (this was what Max had and was confirmed by the physical examination of Max's spinal cord in the hands of the forensic pathologist) will cause an instant cardiac arrest. As a result, the victim almost loses blood pressure immediately. There will NOT be any blood shot in the victim's eyes during autopsy examination. On Page 8 of Max's autopsy report, it says "the eyes have brown irides, glistening corneae, and conjunctivae without hemorrhage, petechae, or yellow discoloration". The lack of conjunctivae hemorrhage, petechae (in layperson's words, blood shot) indicates Max was not suffocated or smothered. That's why the forensic pathologist's final conclusion was "anoxic/ischemic encephalopathy due to resuscitated cardiopulmonary arrest due to cervical spinal cord contusion due to blunt force trauma of head and neck".

In my opinion, the initial suffocation theory did not prove Rebecca or someone else suffocated Max because the AR proved it to be false. However, it does make RZ’s death more suspicious because we now know at least at one time, those who were close to Max thought Max’s death involved foul play. This does not prove anyone did anything upon this suspicion. But it does increase the likelihood of a motive.

Max's AR: https://doc-10-14-docsviewer.googleusercontent.com/viewer/securedownload/dsn1aovipa7l846lsfcf94nedj8q2p4u/f7rkje1hqrdrp5u1gpjae5j3n0pgb6sd/1316880900000/ZXhwbG9yZXI=/AGZ5hq8BgbJY1gwaOYx83cPOdNw6/MEI1NE10ZlhseFJKYlpEYzNaamc1T0RjdFpHUmpNeTAwT0RWa0 xUazFZV0l0T0RBeFpqQXhNekU1T1RWbA==?a=gp&filename=max_autopsy.pdf&chan=EAAAADd31XzJzvta%2B2Zxf5UnrEMiRBAXReo/1/aClWvsTHtX&docid=2d26e1b2393b264ec504a1068c4026ed%7C2aa850319 a88e924b47ca245e4919382&sec=AHSqidYErTZDtzmPmUOsTxL0inAsEAlD-dPIFLqUMTH9cQU7BGTpah7_9sgjCOIbE0yvZEUX1wUa&nonce=nevrdkmaor8og&user=AGZ5hq8BgbJY1gwaOYx83cPOdNw6&hash=aghdpvm3knulrlepa9ouso57cqs08c3n


Thank you very much KarenM. It appears that you and I are on precisely the same page. Understanding that, at one point in time, Dr. Peterson suspected that Max was suffocated, it is easy to make the logical leap that Rebecca could have been assumed to be guilty of harming Max. She then faced retaliation for what someone believed she had done. In other words, she may have been murdered because it was believed that she had harmed Max…even though it's now clear from the autopsy that he did NOT suffocate.

time
09-24-2011, 01:29 PM
Thank you very much KarenM. It appears that you and I are on precisely the same page. Understanding that, at one point in time, Dr. Peterson suspected that Max was suffocated, it is easy to make the logical leap that Rebecca could have been assumed to be guilty of harming Max. She then faced retaliation for what someone believed she had done. In other words, she may have been murdered because it was believed that she had harmed Max…even though it's now clear from the autopsy that he did NOT suffocate.


And, what seems apparent to me is that Rebecca did not know that others were claiming Max died or suffocation and/or that this was seen as a deliberate act. I don't think she knew at all a bout Dina contacting Child Services and the intent of that? Certainly, I'd think Jonah knew?

Salem
09-24-2011, 01:31 PM
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B54MtfXlxRJbZDc3Zjg5ODctZGRjMy00ODVkLTk1YWI tODAxZjAxMzE5OTVl&hl=en


Max's autopsy clearly says CPR was reportedly started by Max's father's girlfriend, RZ.

The autopsy also says a "spinal cord injury of this level can cause cardiorespiratory arrest (cessation of heart activity and/or breathing) which explains the decedent's loss of blood flow and oxygen on the day he fell."

It also says "The time between this event and when his pulse was regained 25-30 minutes later resulted in irreversible damage to his brain, which ultimately led to his death five days later."

This wording is ambiguous and can be interpreted a couple of different ways. Posters are allowed to interpret it as they understand it. That is not a TOS violation.

Cause of death is certified as anoxic/ischemic encephalopathy due to resuscitated cardiopulmonary arrest due to cervical spinal cord contusion due to blunt force trauma of head and neck and the manner as accident.

The autopsy says nothing about "strangulation."

What this means is that accusations that RZ did NOT perform CPR are off the table unless a link can be provided that calls it into question. It also means that further accusations of strangulation are off the table unless a link can be provided to back up the speculation.

If you have questions about this information and direction, send me or any member of the mod team a pm and we will address it.

Thanks,

Salem

CDS22
09-24-2011, 01:45 PM
I don't think anyone here is disputing the AR findings that MS ultimately died from lack of oxygen, or that he had a spinal cord contusion. I think what some of us are debating (and are in agreement with Dr. Brad Peterson about) is that MS might have been unconscious prior to his fall.

The fall alone wouldn't have rendered him unconscious til he hit the ground, since hitting the ground is what apparently caused the contusion. (AR for reference)

The only way I can see MS having the velocity to hit the ground with the force that he did, and the only way I can see him not having the ability to break his fall with his hands, is if he was unconscious prior to hitting the ground.

JMO

Morag
09-24-2011, 01:51 PM
perform CPR [/B]are off the table unless a link can be provided that calls it into question. It also means that further accusations of strangulation are off the table unless a link can be provided to back up the speculation.
(SNIP)

Salem

Here's a link to the search warrant in which the original responding officer says that CPR was underway:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA Rebecca Zahau Naplepa Suicide or Murder? Media links&Timelines ONLY-NO DISCUSSION

Upon my arrival CPR was in progress on Maxfield Shacknai...

It's the third search warrant, page 3, line 15-16.

(Sorry if this has already been posted and linked).

CDS22
09-24-2011, 02:01 PM
Here's a link to the search warrant in which the original responding officer says that CPR was underway:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA Rebecca Zahau Naplepa Suicide or Murder? Media links&Timelines ONLY-NO DISCUSSION (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7148275&postcount=54)

Upon my arrival CPR was in progress on Maxfield Shacknai...

It's the third search warrant, page 3, line 15-16.

(Sorry if this has already been posted and linked).


Was underway by whom?

lauriej
09-24-2011, 02:02 PM
And, what seems apparent to me is that Rebecca did not know that others were claiming Max died or suffocation and/or that this was seen as a deliberate act. I don't think she knew at all a bout Dina contacting Child Services and the intent of that? Certainly, I'd think Jonah knew?

..do we know that DS contacted child services? or when DS and JS were aware of dr.patterson's suffocation possibility?

jjenny
09-24-2011, 02:07 PM
..do we know that DS contacted child services? or when DS and JS were aware of dr.patterson's suffocation possibility?

I don't think it was DS who contacted child protective services. Search warrant says Hospital was going to notify child protective services. That doesn't answer the question of when DS and JS were aware of doctors suffocation theory.

greenpalm
09-24-2011, 02:16 PM
I don't think anyone here is disputing the AR findings that MS ultimately died from lack of oxygen, or that he had a spinal cord contusion. I think what some of us are debating (and are in agreement with Dr. Brad Peterson about) is that MS might have been unconscious prior to his fall.

The fall alone wouldn't have rendered him unconscious til he hit the ground, since hitting the ground is what apparently caused the contusion. (AR for reference)

The only way I can see MS having the velocity to hit the ground with the force that he did, and the only way I can see him not having the ability to break his fall with his hands, is if he was unconscious prior to hitting the ground.

JMO

Dr. Peterson would likely not agree with himself at this point. The autopsy superseded his prior speculation. For all we know Dr. Peterson was present at the autopsy. Whatever he said on the day the search warrant was issued is irrelevant to what is known after the autopsy.

I'm sorry you can't visualize the injuries due to the fall of a conscious child. It's not a struggle for me at all. Conscious children fall all the time, fortunately they are usually not mortally wounded.

thinkingstraight
09-24-2011, 02:20 PM
Was underway by whom?

I didn't assume that meant RZ . I thought it might be that the paramedics were underway in CPR.

RZ reportedly started it. And I believe it was her reporting. She was found screaming over max by first responder wasn't she?

Salem
09-24-2011, 02:25 PM
I don't think anyone here is disputing the AR findings that MS ultimately died from lack of oxygen, or that he had a spinal cord contusion. I think what some of us are debating (and are in agreement with Dr. Brad Peterson about) is that MS might have been unconscious prior to his fall.

The fall alone wouldn't have rendered him unconscious til he hit the ground, since hitting the ground is what apparently caused the contusion. (AR for reference)

The only way I can see MS having the velocity to hit the ground with the force that he did, and the only way I can see him not having the ability to break his fall with his hands, is if he was unconscious prior to hitting the ground.

JMO

Link up Dr. Peterson's info for me please.

Thanks,

Salem

Salem
09-24-2011, 02:27 PM
And, what seems apparent to me is that Rebecca did not know that others were claiming Max died or suffocation and/or that this was seen as a deliberate act. I don't think she knew at all a bout Dina contacting Child Services and the intent of that? Certainly, I'd think Jonah knew?

Link this up please. Where was it reported that DS called CPS? I haven't seen that. I admit I'm running way behind - there is only one of me and at least 30 posters at any given time in this forum :)

Salem

Salem
09-24-2011, 02:28 PM
When I ask for links guys - it is not because I'm hammering you, it is because I just can't read every post made and while I try to keep up with the media thread, I do fall behind.

Thanks,

Salem

CDS22
09-24-2011, 02:29 PM
Dr. Peterson would likely not agree with himself at this point. The autopsy superseded his prior speculation. For all we know Dr. Peterson was present at the autopsy. Whatever he said on the day the search warrant was issued is irrelevant to what is known after the autopsy.

I'm sorry you can't visualize the injuries due to the fall of a conscious child. It's not a struggle for me at all. Conscious children fall all the time, fortunately they are usually not mortally wounded.

You are assuming there is a contradiction between Dr. Peterson's findings and the ME's findings. There need not be. The final cause of death has nothing to do with whether or not MS was unconscious at the time of his fall.

As far as your second paragraph goes, "visualization" has nothing to do with how MS fell. I'm talking science.

CDS22
09-24-2011, 02:33 PM
Link up Dr. Peterson's info for me please.

Thanks,

Salem

Sure:

Max's Search Warrants Released!!!! Discuss Max's Death here #2 - Page 5 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

CDS22
09-24-2011, 02:34 PM
Science? Considering you have been making all kind of statements of what supposedly couldn't happen during the fall, what are your scientific qualifications?

One doesn't need to be a scientist to know basic mathematical equations. Velocity is one of them.

And speaking of qualifications, how many here hold the medical degrees and expertise that Dr. Brad Peterson does?

CDS22
09-24-2011, 02:37 PM
And for those questioning Dr. Peterson's credentials earlier:

http://www.chsdpicu.org/

CDS22
09-24-2011, 02:40 PM
Science? Considering you have been making all kind of statements of what supposedly couldn't happen during the fall, what are your scientific qualifications?

And respectfully, I've provided links for every assertion.

greenpalm
09-24-2011, 02:44 PM
You are assuming there is a contradiction between Dr. Peterson's findings and the ME's findings. There need not be. The final cause of death has nothing to do with whether or not MS was unconscious at the time of his fall.

Hmmm. Unconscious from what? We've established that he wasn't suffocated. Dr. Peterson initially entertained the possibility that Max had suffocated, but autopsy results show otherwise. Dr. Peterson's concern was that upon external examination, he couldn't explain the cardiac arrest. Therefore, he postulated; perhaps he was suffocated prior to the fall. He was basing this on the cardiac arrest, not on the spinal contusion, which he could not have been aware of until AFTER the autopsy. So, on what basis do you claim that Dr. Peterson thought Max was unconscious when he fell? Do you have a link or source for Dr. Saying so?

As far as your second paragraph goes, "visualization" has nothing to do with how MS fell. I'm talking science.

You used the word, "see." and I made an assumption. I'd love to hear your Scientific analysis of how Max sustained his injuries. Goodness knows, it's anyone's guess.

Betty P
09-24-2011, 02:53 PM
On p. 2 of Max's autopsy report, it states that EMS workers were only able to restart his circulation after administering two doses of epinepherine. During the 25+ minutes EMS workers performed CPR, it was only after the administration of epinephrine that his heart restarted.

This information should put to rest any speculation about RZ's efforts to administer CPR.

CDS22
09-24-2011, 02:55 PM
Hmmm. Unconscious from what? We've established that he wasn't suffocated. Dr. Peterson initially entertained the possibility that Max had suffocated, but autopsy results show otherwise. Dr. Peterson's concern was that upon external examination, he couldn't explain the cardiac arrest. Therefore, he postulated; perhaps he was suffocated prior to the fall. He was basing this on the cardiac arrest, not on the spinal contusion, which he could not have been aware of until AFTER the autopsy. So, on what basis do you claim that Dr. Peterson thought Max was unconscious when he fell? Do you have a link or source for Dr. Saying so?



You used the word, "see." and I made an assumption. I'd love to hear your Scientific analysis of how Max sustained his injuries. Goodness knows, it's anyone's guess.


It hasn't been established that MS wasn't suffocated prior to the fall. It's only been established that he died from lack of oxygen and had a spinal cord contusion. Being unconscious prior to a fall doesn't mean that he couldn't have survived the fatal fall. As far as the link from Dr. Peterson, it's posted a few posts up in response to Salem's request.

I believe the only way MS's body could have attained the velocity it did in order to sustain such severe whiplash was if he was unconscious prior to going over the railing. I have a theory about how he became unconscious, but I don't believe I am allowed to post them here.

CDS22
09-24-2011, 02:57 PM
On p. 2 of Max's autopsy report, it states that EMS workers were only able to restart his circulation after administering two doses of epinepherine. During the 25+ minutes EMS workers performed CPR, it was only after the administration of epinephrine that his heart restarted.

This information should put to rest any speculation about RZ's efforts to administer CPR.

Whether she did or did not administer CPR is not as critical a piece of information as what she did prior to MS's injuries, IMO.

jjenny
09-24-2011, 02:57 PM
It hasn't been established that MS wasn't suffocated prior to the fall. It's only been established that he died from lack of oxygen and had a spinal cord contusion. Being unconscious prior to a fall doesn't mean that he couldn't have survived the fatal fall. As far as the link from Dr. Peterson, it's posted a few posts up in response to Salem's request.

I believe the only way MS's body could have attained the velocity it did in order to sustain such severe whiplash was if he was unconscious prior to going over the railing. I have a theory about how he became unconscious, but I don't believe I am allowed to post them here.

I am really curious as to in what physical equation are you using that supports your idea that unconscious body can obtain a higher velocity compared to the body that is not unconscious?

CDS22
09-24-2011, 03:03 PM
I am really curious as to in what physical equation are you using that supports your idea that unconscious body can obtain a higher velocity compared to the body that is not unconscious?

An unconscious body has a higher velocity if thrown than a conscious body because a conscious body can use arms and legs to break their fall, while an unconscious body cannot. That would explain why MS had no marks on his hands and arms to break his fall. It would also explain the marks on his back, IMO.

jjenny
09-24-2011, 03:07 PM
An unconscious body has a higher velocity if thrown than a conscious body because a conscious body can use arms and legs to break their fall, while an unconscious body cannot. That would explain why MS had no marks on his hands and arms to break his fall. It would also explain the marks on his back, IMO.

Use arms and legs to break fall? Isn't that in the point of impact? How could that possibly lead to slower velocity during the fall?
I frankly think MS was riding his scooter. He could have been holding onto it, which would explain why he didn't use his arms to break his fall. It would also explain why he attained momentum prior to going over the railing.

CDS22
09-24-2011, 03:15 PM
Use arms and legs to break fall? Isn't that in the point of impact? How could that possibly lead to slower velocity during the fall?
I frankly think MS was riding his scooter. He could have been holding onto it, which would explain why he didn't use his arms to break his fall. It would also explain why he attained momentum prior to going over the railing.

Constant, quickening motion is needed to speed up a fall. Slowing down a fall by using arms or legs lessens the velocity. That's why an unconscious person would have greater velocity in going over a railing than a conscious person would.

As far as MS riding a scooter goes, he would not have been able to get that scooter over the railing no matter how quickly he was going because a scooter can't leap up into the air and over a railing no matter how quickly you ride it. Remember, LE says he was found on his back with a scooter on his leg.

jjenny
09-24-2011, 03:20 PM
The scooter could have gone over with him because he was holding it.

CDS22
09-24-2011, 03:22 PM
The scooter could have gone over with him because he was holding it.

In order for a scooter to go over the railing, it would have to be propelled. What would propel it?

defense101
09-24-2011, 03:39 PM
Is that the correct link Sunnie?

I did find this interesting from your link:

It hasn't been established that MS wasn't suffocated prior to the fall. It's only been established that he died from lack of oxygen and had a spinal cord contusion. Being unconscious prior to a fall doesn't mean that he couldn't have survived the fatal fall. As far as the link from Dr. Peterson, it's posted a few posts up in response to Salem's request.

I believe the only way MS's body could have attained the velocity it did in order to sustain such severe whiplash was if he was unconscious prior to going over the railing. I have a theory about how he became unconscious, but I don't believe I am allowed to post them here. Diving into the low end of a pool can cause the same injury speed doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it, how you land on your head does. imo

CDS22
09-24-2011, 03:45 PM
Diving into the low end of a pool can cause the same injury speed doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it, how you land on your head does. imo

Respectfully, the bottom of a pool is a different surface than a carpeted landing.

SunnieRN
09-24-2011, 03:52 PM
It hasn't been established that MS wasn't suffocated prior to the fall. It's only been established that he died from lack of oxygen and had a spinal cord contusion. Being unconscious prior to a fall doesn't mean that he couldn't have survived the fatal fall. As far as the link from Dr. Peterson, it's posted a few posts up in response to Salem's request.

I believe the only way MS's body could have attained the velocity it did in order to sustain such severe whiplash was if he was unconscious prior to going over the railing. I have a theory about how he became unconscious, but I don't believe I am allowed to post them here.

I think we are all allowed to post theories, as long as they are stated as such and not as fact, unless they are backed by links to prove them as fact.

Respectfully, the bottom of a pool is a different surface than a carpeted landing.

A lake or a stream can be much like carpet as there is dirt at the bottom. It does absorb some impact, but not enough unfortunately.

greenpalm
09-24-2011, 03:55 PM
Constant, quickening motion is needed to speed up a fall. Slowing down a fall by using arms or legs lessens the velocity. That's why an unconscious person would have greater velocity in going over a railing than a conscious person would.

That may be true but I don't think it matters. What damaged his spinal cord, and ultimately killed him was landing on his face. Thats what whipped his head back. He must have grabbed out at the chandelier, because he pulled it down. That would certainly require him to be conscious. His face may have hit the opposite railing, or possibly the floor itself. I'm willing to consider that he was up on the railing reaching out to the chandelier when he fell, possibly trying to use the scooter to reach the chandelier.

While I don't find your murder theory plausible, I do understand it. What's the motive?

As far as MS riding a scooter goes, he would not have been able to get that scooter over the railing no matter how quickly he was going because a scooter can't leap up into the air and over a railing no matter how quickly you ride it. Remember, LE says he was found on his back with a scooter on his leg.

We are in complete agreement here, no way did that scooter go over the railing, even if he held on tight to the scooter, he would have possibly flipped over the railing, but the scooter would have stayed behind.

Morag
09-24-2011, 03:59 PM
Respectfully, the bottom of a pool is a different surface than a carpeted landing.

The floor on which Max landed was carpet over concrete/cement.

jjenny
09-24-2011, 04:03 PM
That may be true but I don't think it matters. What damaged his spinal cord, and ultimately killed him was landing on his face. Thats what whipped his head back. He must have grabbed out at the chandelier, because he pulled it down. That would certainly require him to be conscious. His face may have hit the opposite railing, or possibly the floor itself. I'm willing to consider that he was up on the railing reaching out to the chandelier when he fell, possibly trying to use the scooter to reach the chandelier.

While I don't find your murder theory plausible, I do understand it. What's the motive?



We are in complete agreement here, no way did that scooter go over the railing, even if he held on tight to the scooter, he would have possibly flipped over the railing, but the scooter would have stayed behind.

The scooter is very light. About 7lb. What makes you think it would be impossible for the scooter to go over the railing if the child was holding it?

SunnieRN
09-24-2011, 04:11 PM
Iwannaknow did a wonderful explanation as to how it was possible for the scooter to go over with/at the same time. as Max. There is one part of the bannister/railing, going from the second floor landing (the highest landing), down to the first step, that is lower than a normal bannister/railing at that point.

At this point, if Max was riding the scooter, he could have fallen over something, or fallen toward the lower part of the bannister/railing, and the handle of the scooter could have acted like a catapult. I am not sure I am explaining this correctly.

I hope she will provide a link to the post she did, as it was fantastic and helped me realize that it was possible, even though it has not been proven, no one having seen the accident occur.

greenpalm
09-24-2011, 04:13 PM
The scooter is very light. About 7lb. What makes you think it would be impossible for the scooter to go over the railing if the child was holding it?

Well, what I'm picturing, is Max, zooming down the upstairs hall on the scooter. He zips along at a good clip, and then: BAM, he hits the railing. The front wheel of the scooter is stopped by the railing, but the impact jerks Zmax forward. Honestly, the scoters got a low center of gravity, like a skate board, it's down near the floor. I think he'd let go of it instinctively to 1. Try to stop his fall, and 2. He wouldn't be able to hold on to it because he would be propelled forward while the railing itself would halt the scooter. The scooters main weight would actually have to be elevated up and over the railing, whereas max himself already has his center of gravity higher up. (honestly, I don't think even max would go over the railing under these circumstances)

defense101
09-24-2011, 04:15 PM
Respectfully, the bottom of a pool is a different surface than a carpeted landing.Respectfully, the floor is most likely concrete and even if wood its not the velocity its how the head hits and the action that occurs afterwards. ie land on the right top front and have your feet land behind you, my point is its not velocity its how you hit your head and the action of the body afterward.

jjenny
09-24-2011, 04:15 PM
Well, what I'm picturing, is Max, zooming down the upstairs hall on the scooter. He zips along at a good clip, and then: BAM, he hits the railing. The front wheel of the scooter is stopped by the railing, but the impact jerks Zmax forward. Honestly, the scoters got a low center of gravity, like a skate board, it's down near the floor. I think he'd let go of it instinctively to 1. Try to stop his fall, and 2. He wouldn't be able to hold on to it because he would be propelled forward while the railing itself would halt the scooter. The scooters main weight would actually have to be elevated up and over the railing, whereas max himself already has his center of gravity higher up. (honestly, I don't think even max would go over the railing under these circumstances)

Since the scooter was found next to Max, it either went down with him or was already down there. I think because it's so light it could have gone over the railing with him.

greenpalm
09-24-2011, 04:25 PM
Since the scooter was found next to Max, it either went down with him or was already down there. I think because it's so light it could have gone over the railing with him.

Yeah, I just always figured it was already down there, but I suppose it could have happened either way. Regardless, honestly, I think there are a number of possible explanations, but they all say "accident" to me. We'll never really know.

branwynbreeze
09-24-2011, 04:48 PM
I found this article interesting, just passing it along.

Emergency Evaluation Of The Pediatric Cervical Spine

http://www.ebmedicine.net/topics.php?paction=showTopicSeg&topic_id=147&seg_id=2921

JBean
09-24-2011, 05:07 PM
Respectfully, the floor is most likely concrete and even if wood its not the velocity its how the head hits and the action that occurs afterwards. ie land on the right top front and have your feet land behind you, my point is its not velocity its how you hit your head and the action of the body afterward.
Personally, I think this is it in a nutshell.A situation where one person could stand up and walk away,may kill another due to the angle and the subsequent response by the body.

I knew one child that died from a seemingly inconsequential bump to the head, when he fell off his little scooter;much like Natsha Richardson.
Sometimes it is just the right spot(s) the right way under the right circumstances.