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IWannaKnow
09-27-2011, 01:33 PM
I noticed something while looking for an appropriate photo for another thread. Look at these photos:

http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/photo_gallery/kswb-photos-nude-woman-found-dead-at-mansion-20110715,0,6503880.photogallery

Specifically photos #4 and #5. Her legs are very clearly straight in #4, bent in #5! I don't believe the problem is camera angle....

Perhaps this was discussed very early on, and I apologize to rehash it, but it seems relevant.

I'm sure the table on or off the sidewalk discussion could go here as well.....

time
09-27-2011, 01:51 PM
I noticed something while looking for an appropriate photo for another thread. Look at these photos:

http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/photo_gallery/kswb-photos-nude-woman-found-dead-at-mansion-20110715,0,6503880.photogallery

Specifically photos #4 and #5. Her legs are very clearly straight in #4, bent in #5! I don't believe the problem is camera angle....

Perhaps this was discussed very early on, and I apologize to rehash it, but it seems relevant.

I'm sure the table on or off the sidewalk discussion could go here as well.....


Hmmm, yeah the knees don't appear to be bent in 4? I'd say it could be the angle, but the length of the legs to the knees wouldn't look right.

If you look at the difference of the white object and the table legs in the two photos, you can guess at the different angle of the shots.

smart blonde
09-27-2011, 01:54 PM
I clicked back and forth between the pictures repeatedly, but I'm not seeing what you're seeing. Her legs look to be in exactly the same position in each shot- save for the different camera angle.

TorisMom003
09-27-2011, 01:54 PM
I think it is the blurring that has been done in the photos that make it look that way. If you look at the feet in both, you can see that her knees are bent in both photos as well. It is partly the angle of the photo and partly the blurring that was done to the photo.

MOO

IWannaKnow
09-27-2011, 01:56 PM
Thank you time. I agree. I've looked at it several different times. How did her legs get straightened out like that and who did it? It speaks to time of death at any rate. Rigor had not reached the large muscle groups or they would not have been able to do this.

So, were her legs REALLY bent, or was that just the position AS laid her down in?

ETA: I see what you mean smart blonde and TorisMom003. #4 looks straight, but if you look closely the shadow is visible where her legs bend at the knee. Very odd position for a hanging victim.

time
09-27-2011, 02:00 PM
Thank you time. I agree. I've looked at it several different times. How did her legs get straightened out like that and who did it? It speaks to time of death at any rate. Rigor had not reached the large muscle groups or they would not have been able to do this.

So, were her legs REALLY bent, or was that just the position AS laid her down in?


I don't know, I have to look again. Maybe her legs are bent, but the photo somehow still shows most of them from the knees on down and (somehow) without any shadows depicting angle? Are hers legs broken (looks possible in #4 and the knees are bending backwards? look again and see if you see the angle closer to her ankles)

Having said all this, it could be sort of a weird foreshortening that doesn't look right - when I used to try and paint/draw you do realize the body doesn't always make perceptual sense.

SunnieRN
09-27-2011, 02:03 PM
Imho, the legs being bent in picture 4 are the way she was found originally. The legs were bent at the knees.

Having looked at number 5, if I remember correctly, this was taken hours later. I would think gravity would pull the legs over, since she was slightly to the left, thereby bending her ankles/feet, as it does so.

Just my opinion, but seems to me that rigor was present in picture 4, with her legs in a bent position.

SunnieRN
09-27-2011, 02:05 PM
Just wish to add that these pictures make me feel sick. Not believing this is a suicide, makes these so much harder to even visualize.

time
09-27-2011, 02:06 PM
Imho, the legs being bent in picture 4 are the way she was found originally. The legs were bent at the knees.

Having looked at number 5, if I remember correctly, this was taken hours later. I would think gravity would pull the legs over, since she was slightly to the left, thereby bending her ankles/feet, as it does so.

Just my opinion, but seems to me that rigor was present in picture 4, with her legs in a bent position.

In 4, does it look like the bend is in the wrong direction between the knees and ankles?

IWannaKnow
09-27-2011, 02:09 PM
In 4, does it look like the bend is in the wrong direction between the knees and ankles?

That is actually the shadow where the knee bends time. I thought it was her feet at first too, but the legs would be way too short. That spot is the bend of her knees.

IWannaKnow
09-27-2011, 02:11 PM
Just wish to add that these pictures make me feel sick. Not believing this is a suicide, makes these so much harder to even visualize.

ITA Sunnie. Especially if you factor in what had to preceed these pictures....poor Rebecca. :mad:

time
09-27-2011, 02:13 PM
That is actually the shadow where the knee bends time. I thought it was her feet at first too, but the legs would be way too short. That spot is the bend of her knees.

In 4? I'm not getting it! Wouldn't that mean her knees were bent more then, so that we can't see most of her calf area? Or is what I'm seeing as her hips what others are calling her knees?

SunnieRN
09-27-2011, 02:16 PM
In 4, does it look like the bend is in the wrong direction between the knees and ankles?

This 'look' can also be from her previous injury, which caused her limp (a car accident). I do believe that rigor had already set in, even if not totally yet, in picture four. This also would prove the time of death as prior to 3 am, imho.

What amazes me is that we have not seen the ems reports or that the medical examiner did not examine Rebecca until almost 8 pm, thereby not being at all able to establish a true TOD.

TorisMom003
09-27-2011, 02:16 PM
Bringing this to this thread as it shows the drawing of the courtyard and Rebecca's knees are shown as bent.


http://www.sdsheriff.net/coronado/images/rz-courtyard.jpg

SunnieRN
09-27-2011, 02:20 PM
In 4? I'm not getting it! Wouldn't that mean her knees were bent more then, so that we can't see most of her calf area? Or is what I'm seeing as her hips what others are calling her knees?

It is her knee according to my eyes. It is odd that her feet are basically together, but that her legs are apart. I still think rigor is present and that she died with her legs bent. Gravity seems to have caused the other changes, as well as time and the changes it causes to occur after death has occurred. Her having her hands behind her and being on the left side, would cause the legs to change position, even if they did so stiffly, as in rigor.

smart blonde
09-27-2011, 02:24 PM
The same thing was running through my mind as I was viewing the photos.

This little 'voice' in the back of my head was hollering in indignation that they are showing pictures of a murder victim's naked, exposed and seemingly vulnerable body on the Internet- just mere months after the crime was committed.

Then I remembered that she was being passed off as a suicide.

Somehow, that lie makes it even worse.

Bonepile
09-27-2011, 02:38 PM
I took the photos in question to "photoshop" (oh NO he is at it again) and here are the results ...

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm173/walcatt/PhotoshopScreenSnapz003-1.jpg

the orange line is photo #3
the blue line is photo #4
the black line is photo #5

#4 and #5 are almost matches when outlined and laid upon each other, but we have to remember that these photos are totally out of focus without clear lines or edges, and as the helicopter moved the angles are also off slightly. Blow up blue photo #4 more and it is right in line with black photo #5 .. and notice that orange photo #3 is also nearly dead on, but not quite. I do not think the legs were moved .. I think it has to do with the angles of those photos. Hopefully this is of some help to the discussion.

SunnieRN
09-27-2011, 02:40 PM
Brilliant Bonepile!!! And I didn't know you were a 'he', but I am glad, no, very glad, you did it again!!!! Thanks so much!!!:great:

Bonepile
09-27-2011, 02:43 PM
Brilliant Bonepile!!! And I didn't know you were a 'he', but I am glad, no, very glad, you did it again!!!! Thanks so much!!!:great:

Yes I am .. or I think I am .. anyway after what seems like weeks I am backing photoshopping, and still very interested in this case. Been away for 10 days and amazed at all I have missed, and all you have contributed, but I am back, or is that "he" is back? Thanks. :)

IWannaKnow
09-27-2011, 02:48 PM
So really all this discussion plays to time of death. Her legs were clearly bent, indicating she was in full rigor when cut down and laid on the grass. At 6:48? IDK. Do we have any idea what time these photos were taken by the helicopter?

SunnieRN
09-27-2011, 02:49 PM
Yes I am .. or I think I am .. anyway after what seems like weeks I am backing photoshopping, and still very interested in this case. Been away for 10 days and amazed at all I have missed, and all you have contributed, but I am back, or is that "he" is back? Thanks. :)

:floorlaugh: Either way, youu have been sorely missed and I am SO happy to see you, errr 'he', or him. lol!!

Bonepile
09-27-2011, 02:50 PM
The same thing was running through my mind as I was viewing the photos. This little 'voice' in the back of my head was hollering in indignation that they are showing pictures of a murder victim's naked, exposed and seemingly vulnerable body on the Internet- just mere months after the crime was committed.Then I remembered that she was being passed off as a suicide. Somehow, that lie makes it even worse.

I am still so very mad every time I think of that wonderful, kind, beautiful woman lying there "naked" for everyone to gawk at for how many hours I would love to see that justice was done for her and to hell with waiting for search warrants .. cover her up. If I could sue these unfeeling bastards for that very reason alone I would .. I can tell you that. Instead I pray for an independent review of this case.

CocoChanel
09-27-2011, 03:01 PM
Just wish to add that these pictures make me feel sick. Not believing this is a suicide, makes these so much harder to even visualize.

Me too Sunnie. Me too.

We hardly knew Rebecca then, but feel like we do so much more now.
And OMG the pictures remind me yet again that the official conclusion reached just seems so absolutely absurd.

time
09-27-2011, 03:01 PM
So really all this discussion plays to time of death. Her legs were clearly bent, indicating she was in full rigor when cut down and laid on the grass. At 6:48? IDK. Do we have any idea what time these photos were taken by the helicopter?

Well, yeah, and how did her legs get bent? Clearly, she somehow hung herself and held her legs in that position for hours afterward :crazy:

IWannaKnow
09-27-2011, 03:36 PM
I believe she was hog tied and hanged off the balcony time. That was why her legs were bent that way.

time
09-27-2011, 03:50 PM
I believe she was hog tied and hanged off the balcony time. That was why her legs were bent that way.


I think she HAD to be hog tied or tied to a chair. Where livity was set would help.

My comment was sarcastic - how on earth do you come to the conclusion it was suicide if the legs were bent like that because rigor mortis set in. The only possible explanation I can come up with other than the ones we all (mostly) suspect is that somehow she dropped to the ground when she was hung, enough to bend or break her legs, she stayed that way until rigor set in - but then that would also mean Adam was lying.

So, it looks like either Adam was lying anyway because he would have cut the rope off that made it a hog tie when he found her or he told LE and they kept it from the public. Either way, there is no explanation.

TorisMom003
09-27-2011, 03:54 PM
I believe that the overturned chair in that guest bedroom plays a role as to why her legs are clearly bent and she is in rigor. It also would explain the livor mortis on her back instead of her feet, lower legs or only the left side of her body. It would also explain why her legs are not only bent but apart from each other.

MOO

IWannaKnow
09-27-2011, 03:56 PM
The only other possible conclusion is that he laid her in the grass that way and since she laid there for 12 hours, rigor could have set in during that time. That would also change the pattern from livor mortis. I'm proper irritated that the ME waited until 7:00 to show up at the scene! I can't imagine what was SOOOOO important that he needed to wait that long.

I wonder if LE knew that the hospital was going to file paperwork with CPS?

TorisMom003
09-27-2011, 04:00 PM
The only problem with rigor setting in while she was on the grass is that not only are her legs bent but they are also apart from each other. If you lay on the ground with legs bent on your side your knees will naturally fall together unless you or something makes them stay apart. Since Rebecca's knees were apart, it is MO that rigor had to have set in before she was put on the grass.

ETA: The AR also does not state that livor mortis was on the left posterior, it states that livor mortis was on the posterior. This tells me that livor mortis was present on her back, not the left side of her back.

IWannaKnow
09-27-2011, 04:00 PM
I believe that the overturned chair in that guest bedroom plays a role as to why her legs are clearly bent and she is in rigor. It also would explain the livor mortis on her back instead of her feet, lower legs or only the left side of her body. It would also explain why her legs are not only bent but apart from each other.

MOO

So would a hog tied suspension:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Model_in_suspended_hogtie.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Model_in_classic_Hogtie.jpg

I think the livor mortis on her back is because she was allowed to lay in the courtyard for 12 hours, not because of the position in which she died.

time
09-27-2011, 04:00 PM
The only other possible conclusion is that he laid her in the grass that way and since she laid there for 12 hours, rigor could have set in during that time. That would also change the pattern from livor mortis. I'm proper irritated that the ME waited until 7:00 to show up at the scene! I can't imagine what was SOOOOO important that he needed to wait that long.

I wonder if LE knew that the hospital was going to file paperwork with CPS?


Shouldn't all this, one way or the other, have been noted and explained in the autopsy? And, even if this is the case, the pattern of lividity would have been set (at least partially) before she was laid on the grass if she, in fact, died before 3 am. Shouldn't they be able to tell if her legs were in rigor, in that position, when she was laid down or not?

time
09-27-2011, 04:02 PM
Both of you make excellent points about the legs being apart - I think it excludes her legs being bent when she was laid on the grass. I can't find the photo now, but her head/neck was also in rigor and either bent forward or straight. Otherwise why wouldn't her head be over to the side or back in those pics even if her arms are behind her.

SunnieRN
09-27-2011, 04:05 PM
Shouldn't all this, one way or the other, have been noted and explained in the autopsy? And, even if this is the case, the pattern of lividity would have been set (at least partially) before she was laid on the grass if she, in fact, died before 3 am. Shouldn't they be able to tell if her legs were in rigor, in that position, when she was laid down or not?

Especially when you take in to account that her legs do not show evidence of being found hanging for at least 3 hours. Nothing makes sense, nothing was explained.

TorisMom003
09-27-2011, 04:07 PM
Being hog tied and hung from the balcony would show livor mortis in a different area. Now she could have been hog tied while in the chair that was knocked over during her death and that would explain all of the occurances that we have. Imagine sitting in a chair with hands behind the chair bound, legs and feet bound beside or behind the legs of the chair, then the chair on it's back with Rebecca still in it and left in that position for hours before being hung. In my mind I see this as the best "fit" for what we have as far as evidence goes.

MOO

ETA: I also say hours in that position because I do think that the murder was committed by someone and then another person came in, found her and stagged, cleaned up the area.

IWannaKnow
09-27-2011, 04:10 PM
The only problem with rigor setting in while she was on the grass is that not only are her legs bent but they are also apart from each other. If you lay on the ground with legs bent on your side your knees will naturally fall together unless you or something makes them stay apart. Since Rebecca's knees were apart, it is MO that rigor had to have set in before she was put on the grass.

ETA: The AR also does not state that livor mortis was on the left posterior, it states that livor mortis was on the posterior. This tells me that livor mortis was present on her back, not the left side of her back.

You got me there TorisMom. The legs should have fallen together if she was not that far advanced in rigor, which she shouldn't have been if TOD was approximately 3am. However, we don't know exactly when these photos were taken.

IWannaKnow
09-27-2011, 04:11 PM
Being hog tied and hung from the balcony would show livor mortis in a different area. Now she could have been hog tied while in the chair that was knocked over during her death and that would explain all of the occurances that we have. Imagine sitting in a chair with hands behind the chair bound, legs and feet bound beside or behind the legs of the chair, then the chair on it's back with Rebecca still in it and left in that position for hours before being hung. In my mind I see this as the best "fit" for what we have as far as evidence goes.

MOO

ETA: I also say hours in that position because I do think that the murder was committed by someone and then another person came in, found her and stagged, cleaned up the area.

Not if she were cut down before livor set, which is generally 8 to 12 hours.

time
09-27-2011, 04:13 PM
Being hog tied and hung from the balcony would show livor mortis in a different area. Now she could have been hog tied while in the chair that was knocked over during her death and that would explain all of the occurances that we have. Imagine sitting in a chair with hands behind the chair bound, legs and feet bound beside or behind the legs of the chair, then the chair on it's back with Rebecca still in it and left in that position for hours before being hung. In my mind I see this as the best "fit" for what we have as far as evidence goes.

MOO

ETA: I also say hours in that position because I do think that the murder was committed by someone and then another person came in, found her and stagged, cleaned up the area.

If lividity is in her back, I can't see her being hung, hog tied, when it set, you are right.

TorisMom003
09-27-2011, 04:14 PM
At what point does rigor set in? At what point does livor set in? If rigor sets in before livor then yes, that might work. If livor sets in before rigor then no, it would not work.

ETA: I forgot that the AR states that livor mortis was on the posterior, not on the left posterior so that might not work after all no matter which one sets first.

SunnieRN
09-27-2011, 04:16 PM
There was also livor mortis in her chest. Remember? That has NEVER been explained to my knowledge and has bugged me since the day the AR was released.:waitasec:

time
09-27-2011, 04:17 PM
Not if she were cut down before livor set, which is generally 8 to 12 hours.

Are you saying cut down after rigor but before lividity set?

TorisMom003
09-27-2011, 04:20 PM
There was also livor mortis in her chest. Remember? That has NEVER been explained to my knowledge and has bugged me since the day the AR was released.:waitasec:

Wait, didn't it first come out that when paramedics showed up on the scene that Rebecca was face down on the grass? I remember questions coming up about how in the heck could Adam have attempted CPR when she was face down. So, if rigor had set in with her legs bent and apart and then put face down on the grass would livor mortis have moved to her chest area as that was what was in contact with the ground?

IWannaKnow
09-27-2011, 04:22 PM
At what point does rigor set in? At what point does livor set in? If rigor sets in before livor then yes, that might work. If livor sets in before rigor then no, it would not work.

ETA: I forgot that the AR states that livor mortis was on the posterior, not on the left posterior so that might not work after all no matter which one sets first.

They both begin at death, but it takes different amounts of time for each to 'set'. Rigor is affected by aggressive activity before death - that can shorten the onset and duration. Livor doesn't become 'set' for 8 to 12 hours. Incidentially, anything in contact with the body will not show livor because the capillaries are being compressed.

SunnieRN
09-27-2011, 04:23 PM
Just thought of something I told another poster: *Alert, do not read if squeamish*

I truly believe that her legs were in rigor. Otherwise, they would NOT have stayed in that same position. When a person first dies, we have to clean them and remove any lines etc., unless it is a coroners case, then those stay in also. I have seen people who are dead a couple of hours or so. If you move a leg to clean the person, for example, it doesn't stay in that position, until rigor is setting in.

IWannaKnow
09-27-2011, 04:24 PM
There was also livor mortis in her chest. Remember? That has NEVER been explained to my knowledge and has bugged me since the day the AR was released.:waitasec:

Wecht addressed this briefly on WS radio. Said all the veins draining into the superior vena cava could be the cause of this.

mrsu
09-27-2011, 04:24 PM
The legs look exactly the same to me. You can see they are bent in both photo.

SunnieRN
09-27-2011, 04:24 PM
Wait, didn't it first come out that when paramedics showed up on the scene that Rebecca was face down on the grass? I remember questions coming up about how in the heck could Adam have attempted CPR when she was face down. So, if rigor had set in with her legs bent and apart and then put face down on the grass would livor mortis have moved to her chest area as that was what was in contact with the ground?

Even if she was on her face for 18 minutes, there should not have been livor on her chest imho.

SunnieRN
09-27-2011, 04:27 PM
Wecht addressed this briefly on WS radio. Said all the veins draining into the superior vena cava could be the cause of this.

1) If she were hanging, I don't understand how that could be

2) It fits the theory of her being prone, face down, for longer than 18 minutes

I am NOT an ME and do not usually deal with death however. It just doesn't seem plausible to em. Not impossible, but not plausible.:waitasec:

time
09-27-2011, 04:31 PM
There was also livor mortis in her chest. Remember? That has NEVER been explained to my knowledge and has bugged me since the day the AR was released.:waitasec:


I really don't know enough about any of this... but I posted one very old article where livor mortis will set in in one place and if the body is moved before being set, it will start to disappear. Perhaps it can partially set in one place, the body is moved and set in another place - the result is livor mortis set in two different spots because of two different body positions after death??????

IWannaKnow
09-27-2011, 05:55 PM
1) If she were hanging, I don't understand how that could be

2) It fits the theory of her being prone, face down, for longer than 18 minutes

I am NOT an ME and do not usually deal with death however. It just doesn't seem plausible to em. Not impossible, but not plausible.:waitasec:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleuths/2011/09/19/websleuths-radio

It is talked about around the 67 min mark. IDK. I listened to this several times, and am still confused about that point.

IWannaKnow
09-27-2011, 06:00 PM
Are you saying cut down after rigor but before lividity set?

Yes. Livor mortis will not 'set' for 8 - 12 hours postmortem. It has to set to create the pattern and if the body is moved before then the pattern will not necessarily show. This is my understanding.


I really don't know enough about any of this... but I posted one very old article where livor mortis will set in in one place and if the body is moved before being set, it will start to disappear. Perhaps it can partially set in one place, the body is moved and set in another place - the result is livor mortis set in two different spots because of two different body positions after death??????

It depends upon how long the body sat before being moved. If under the crucial time frame of 8 hours, the uncoagulated blood will simply re-settle into the lowest area. If the body is moved during this window of time (8-12 hours) then you can get different patterns.

sorrell skye
09-27-2011, 06:44 PM
You got me there TorisMom. The legs should have fallen together if she was not that far advanced in rigor, which she shouldn't have been if TOD was approximately 3am. However, we don't know exactly when these photos were taken.

According to News 8, when they reviewed the helicopter footage these photos are taken from, they said the footage was taken @ approximately 4:45 p.m., IIRC.

It still doesn't explain why her knees were bent after she was cut down & laid on the ground. IMO, her knees should have been straight, but I'm not an expert on rigor mortis. I wish Dr. Wecht would weigh in on this.

Tricia - we need another radio program (hint hint :D).

elementry
09-27-2011, 07:24 PM
The only other possible conclusion is that he laid her in the grass that way and since she laid there for 12 hours, rigor could have set in during that time. That would also change the pattern from livor mortis. I'm proper irritated that the ME waited until 7:00 to show up at the scene! I can't imagine what was SOOOOO important that he needed to wait that long.

I wonder if LE knew that the hospital was going to file paperwork with CPS?

I've got a question, if anybody knows the answer: How large is the Medical Examiner's office? How many employees? On their website I can't seem to find any names or details:

http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/me/index.html


In a different document search I see a man named Glenn Wagner listed as Chief Medical Examiner:

http://tinyurl.com/3h257en

So Jonathan Lucas is not the top dog I presume? I see he is listed as the Forensic pathology fellowship director under the "jobs" link at their website. That's the only name I found listed anywhere on their site, but I may have missed a roster link or something.

Dr. Lucas seemed to me a little green himself , or at least well younger than the grizzled vets I've seen presiding at many trials on true TV. Was he handpicked to deliver this particular report on Max and Rebecca?

SunnieRN
09-27-2011, 09:09 PM
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleuths/2011/09/19/websleuths-radio

It is talked about around the 67 min mark. IDK. I listened to this several times, and am still confused about that point.

I have listened to that also, and I am totally confused, as it seems to go against what we know about livor.

Sorrell, I think you have a great idea, and where is Cynic??!! I know he could make this clear...lol!:waitasec:

time
09-28-2011, 12:18 AM
Yes. Livor mortis will not 'set' for 8 - 12 hours postmortem. It has to set to create the pattern and if the body is moved before then the pattern will not necessarily show. This is my understanding.



It depends upon how long the body sat before being moved. If under the crucial time frame of 8 hours, the uncoagulated blood will simply re-settle into the lowest area. If the body is moved during this window of time (8-12 hours) then you can get different patterns.


Thank you so much for the expertise and explanations.

jjenny
09-28-2011, 10:49 PM
I don't believe there are any discrepancies in the photos. Her legs appear to be bend in all photos.

sorrell skye
09-28-2011, 11:18 PM
I don't believe there are any discrepancies in the photos. Her legs appear to be bend in all photos.

I agree. When I look @ photos # 3, 4, & 5, her knees are bent in all three photos.

SophieRose
09-28-2011, 11:37 PM
I've got a question, if anybody knows the answer: How large is the Medical Examiner's office? How many employees? On their website I can't seem to find any names or details:

http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/me/index.html


In a different document search I see a man named Glenn Wagner listed as Chief Medical Examiner:

http://tinyurl.com/3h257en

So Jonathan Lucas is not the top dog I presume? I see he is listed as the Forensic pathology fellowship director under the "jobs" link at their website. That's the only name I found listed anywhere on their site, but I may have missed a roster link or something.

Dr. Lucas seemed to me a little green himself , or at least well younger than the grizzled vets I've seen presiding at many trials on true TV. Was he handpicked to deliver this particular report on Max and Rebecca?

Chief Medical Examiner has been vacant since Feb 2010, they just hired a new one.

http://newsblog.projo.com/2011/09/ri-hires-san-diego-pathologist.html

deanna82437
09-28-2011, 11:52 PM
Chief Medical Examiner has been vacant since Feb 2010, they just hired a new one.

http://newsblog.projo.com/2011/09/ri-hires-san-diego-pathologist.html

That article is from Providence, RI. They hired a SD pathologist to fill the position in RI which has been vacant since 02/2010.

SophieRose
09-29-2011, 12:02 AM
I've got a question, if anybody knows the answer: How large is the Medical Examiner's office? How many employees? On their website I can't seem to find any names or details:

http://www.sdcounty.ca.gov/me/index.html


In a different document search I see a man named Glenn Wagner listed as Chief Medical Examiner:

http://tinyurl.com/3h257en

So Jonathan Lucas is not the top dog I presume? I see he is listed as the Forensic pathology fellowship director under the "jobs" link at their website. That's the only name I found listed anywhere on their site, but I may have missed a roster link or something.

Dr. Lucas seemed to me a little green himself , or at least well younger than the grizzled vets I've seen presiding at many trials on true TV. Was he handpicked to deliver this particular report on Max and Rebecca?

Here's some info on the SD County ME. There are 60 employees that work within five divisions.

http://thename.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=795&Itemid=27

Thanks, Deanna82437, for correcting me on the posting of that incorrect data on the Chief ME position.

cynic
10-01-2011, 05:09 PM
I have listened to that also, and I am totally confused, as it seems to go against what we know about livor.

Sorrell, I think you have a great idea, and where is Cynic??!! I know he could make this clear...lol!:waitasec:
Hey Sunnie, I don’t know if I can make this clear, but I’ll give it a try.

From the autopsy report:
Livor mortis is posterior, red and fixed. There is also red livor mortis on the upper chest.

The autopsy report statement with respect to lividity makes sense given the fact that AS cut Rebecca down and laid her down in the court yard.
Normally a person who is on their back will, of course, not have their hands under their pelvis as we see here, but rather to the sides which will leave the body in a completely horizontal position, (barring any tilt to the surface that they have been placed on.)
This would then produce a staining pattern in the posterior of the body only. The additional livor mortis on the upper chest, IMO, is the result of RZ tilting her body back as the result of the placement of her hands.
You can try this yourselves. Lie on your back, angle your legs at approximately 90 degrees, place your arms/hands in the position they would be if they were tied behind you and note that there is now a slight tilt to your body. (RZ also apparently had a twist to her left from her waist, rotating her pelvis and legs.)
The tilt backward is not drastic, but it would allow blood to gravitate back all the way from the upper legs to the back and essentially “spill over” to the upper chest.
In the illustrations below, I tried with only a limited degree of success in depicting that RZ would be tilted back as a result of her hands and arms being beneath her.
The illustration with a tilted bottle is a very crude but somewhat analogous depiction of the loading of the superior vena cava with blood from the lower portions of the body and subsequent “spill over” to the upper chest.

Working through this has left me with something I can’t explain. I would expect lividity in the lower legs given that she hung for several hours and her subsequent position (with bent legs) in the courtyard would not have allowed for a gravitational shift of blood from her lower legs to any other part of the body.

http://i51.tinypic.com/efl1s2.jpg



http://i56.tinypic.com/69gw8w.jpg

jjenny
10-01-2011, 06:35 PM
So do we have any idea how her legs ended up bended like that?
If she was hanging 2 feet off the ground, as LE claims, why are her legs bend the way they are?

cynic
10-01-2011, 06:44 PM
So do we have any idea how her legs ended up bended like that?
If she was hanging 2 feet off the ground, as LE claims, why are her legs bend the way they are?

She ended up in the courtyard in (probably) one of two ways, either she was carried or dragged.
If she was carried, she may have been carried in the following way, (which would account for her legs being bent,) and deposited on the grass without straightening the legs.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2zjkthf.jpg

I came across this picture which also addresses the issue of her legs being bent together or apart. I believe that unless she was fully on her side, which she was not, then her legs would be apart.

http://i53.tinypic.com/2qnqdlk.jpg

Wendy101
10-01-2011, 07:16 PM
Cynic... I just have to say you ROCK!!:rocker:

Rhyme & Reason
10-01-2011, 07:36 PM
Cynic is da bomb!

SunnieRN
10-01-2011, 10:08 PM
Cynic, I know I am dense, but even if she died at three, as the ME and LE suggest, and hung for 3.5 hours, then there should be lividity in the feet and lower legs, correct?

I know that after only 3.5 hours, livor is not fully set, but some effects should have still been present, correct?:waitasec:

Thank you for the bottle demonstration and the pictures. It looked to me as if Rebecca was further on her side, but now I can understand the lividity on the back.

jjenny
10-02-2011, 12:12 AM
She ended up in the courtyard in (probably) one of two ways, either she was carried or dragged.
If she was carried, she may have been carried in the following way, (which would account for her legs being bent,) and deposited on the grass without straightening the legs.

http://i52.tinypic.com/2zjkthf.jpg

I came across this picture which also addresses the issue of her legs being bent together or apart. I believe that unless she was fully on her side, which she was not, then her legs would be apart.

http://i53.tinypic.com/2qnqdlk.jpg
But we know she was already in rigor by the time police and fire department arrived on the scene. Which should mean she was already in rigor by the time Adam found her, since he called 911 soon after he found her. Would her legs even bend if she were carried?

cynic
10-02-2011, 03:54 AM
Cynic, I know I am dense, but even if she died at three, as the ME and LE suggest, and hung for 3.5 hours, then there should be lividity in the feet and lower legs, correct?

I know that after only 3.5 hours, livor is not fully set, but some effects should have still been present, correct?:waitasec:

Sunnie you are NOT dense. You are a smart and insightful poster.
Re the lividity, you are absolutely right and I did mention it in my post:
"Working through this has left me with something I can’t explain. I would expect lividity in the lower legs given that she hung for several hours and her subsequent position (with bent legs) in the courtyard would not have allowed for a gravitational shift of blood from her lower legs to any other part of the body."


Thank you for the bottle demonstration and the pictures. It looked to me as if Rebecca was further on her side, but now I can understand the lividity on the back.
Please don't let my horrendous atistic skills dissuade you. I would say that RZ's left knee was either touching or within a few inches of touching the grass and her right leg was at an approximate 30 - 45 degree angle. IMO her upper back was in full contact with the ground.

cynic
10-02-2011, 03:55 AM
But we know she was already in rigor by the time police and fire department arrived on the scene. Which should mean she was already in rigor by the time Adam found her, since he called 911 soon after he found her. Would her legs even bend if she were carried?
The autopsy report is unfortunately vague with respect to this. From the AR, “Coronado Fire Department personnel responded, felt rigor mortis in her jaw (no other areas were checked) and advised that CPR be stopped.”
Also, “At 2000 hours rigor mortis was marked in the upper and lower extremities, neck, and jaw. Livor mortis was posterior, red and fixed. Both rigor and livor mortis were appropriate for the decedent's position."
As you say, she was already in rigor, however, if it was at the earliest stages, carrying RZ with bent knees would not be an issue. (Rigor involving the knees may have been as much as a further 2, or so, hours away.)
Rigor mortis is progressive and generally follows a predictable sequence.
Typically, two or three hours after a person dies the process begins and progresses through small muscle mass much more quickly than large muscle mass. As a result, it is first evident in the face, lower jaw and neck, followed by the shoulders, arms, legs, and hips. Within the arms and legs the pattern continues with muscles involving wrist and ankle movement first and then muscles that control elbows and knees.

Sharyne
10-02-2011, 05:16 AM
I wonder just how much any of them (our POI's) would know about RM, would they know that moving the body would affect it? Sort of like the possibility of being strangled being covered up by the hanging? I'm thinking like these things were AFTER Rebecca died.

SunnieRN
10-02-2011, 09:37 PM
The autopsy report is unfortunately vague with respect to this. From the AR, “Coronado Fire Department personnel responded, felt rigor mortis in her jaw (no other areas were checked) and advised that CPR be stopped.”
Also, “At 2000 hours rigor mortis was marked in the upper and lower extremities, neck, and jaw. Livor mortis was posterior, red and fixed. Both rigor and livor mortis were appropriate for the decedent's position."
As you say, she was already in rigor, however, if it was at the earliest stages, carrying RZ with bent knees would not be an issue. (Rigor involving the knees may have been as much as a further 2, or so, hours away.)
Rigor mortis is progressive and generally follows a predictable sequence.
Two or three hours after a person dies the process begins and progresses through small muscle mass much more quickly than large muscle mass. As a result, it is first evident in the face, lower jaw and neck, followed by the shoulders, arms, legs, and hips. Within the arms and legs the pattern continues with muscles involving wrist and ankle movement first and then muscles that control elbows and knees.

Cynic, you are amazing!! Anyone who can allow me to understand any of this, has to be!!!

I do have a question for you. Two actually my friend. First, when do you think Rebecca died? Do you think LE has it 'right' at 3 am? Or do you think it was closer to when people heard screams, around 11:30?

Second, Do you think she died when she was hung?

Thanks!!:seeya: Hope all is well with you! We need another radio show, where members can call in to ask you questions. ;-)

houndstooth
10-02-2011, 11:31 PM
According to News 8, when they reviewed the helicopter footage these photos are taken from, they said the footage was taken @ approximately 4:45 p.m., IIRC.

It still doesn't explain why her knees were bent after she was cut down & laid on the ground. IMO, her knees should have been straight, but I'm not an expert on rigor mortis. I wish Dr. Wecht would weigh in on this.

Tricia - we need another radio program (hint hint :D).

Cut down and then laid on the ground to be contaminated?

I don't understand how a body once found like that would have ever been left unattended for these photos to have occured. The body would have been surrounded by photographers, forensics, detectives...SOMEBODY!.

So what gives? There is no one anywhere near the body which I find awfully strange as do the photographs themselves.

jjenny
10-02-2011, 11:35 PM
Cut down and then laid on the ground to be contaminated?

I don't understand how a body once found like that would have ever been left unattended for these photos to have occured. The body would have been surrounded by photographers, forensics, detectives...SOMEBODY!.

So what gives? There is no one anywhere near the body which I find awfully strange as do the photographs themselves.

AS cut her down and put her on the ground, not the police. But police let her lay there for hours and hours.

sorrell skye
10-02-2011, 11:44 PM
Cut down and then laid on the ground to be contaminated?

I don't understand how a body once found like that would have ever been left unattended for these photos to have occured. The body would have been surrounded by photographers, forensics, detectives...SOMEBODY!.

So what gives? There is no one anywhere near the body which I find awfully strange as do the photographs themselves.

I know Hound - there has been much outrage that LE left her body in the courtyard unshielded from the media helicopters & neighbors on roofs to take photos for 12+ hours after LE arrived on the scene @ 6:53 a.m. Furthermore, according to the autopsy report, the ME didn't arrive on the crime scene until 1914 hours (7:14 p.m.) - more than 12 hours after Rebecca's body was found bound, gagged, & hanged from the guest bedroom balcony. Outrageous.

houndstooth
10-02-2011, 11:55 PM
I know Hound - there has been much outrage that LE left her body in the courtyard unshielded from the media helicopters & neighbors on roofs to take photos for 12+ hours after LE arrived on the scene @ 6:53 a.m. Furthermore, according to the autopsy report, the ME didn't arrive on the crime scene until 1914 hours (7:14 p.m.) - more than 12 hours after Rebecca's body was found bound, gagged, & hanged from the guest bedroom balcony. Outrageous.

You mean that LE doesn't have some sort of sterile tarp to lay a body on?

DIDN'T ARRIVE FOR 12 HOURS AFTER IT WAS FOUND??? (sorry for yelling)

Why?

justice be served
10-03-2011, 12:16 AM
You mean that LE doesn't have some sort of sterile tarp to lay a body on?

DIDN'T ARRIVE FOR 12 HOURS AFTER IT WAS FOUND??? (sorry for yelling)

Why?

The outrage we all feel started that very morning Rebecca was found. The lack of respect for Rebecca has been beyond appalling and now that autopsies and search warrants have been released there are more questions than ever about how LE could have ruled this a suicide. I didn't want to believe the worst when this all started and I've been following it since Day 1 because I have close friends that know the people in question but I have become a believer in the fact she was murdered. It's just an exceptionally terrible case and all of us want the truth to come out.

sdcali
10-03-2011, 12:16 AM
You mean that LE doesn't have some sort of sterile tarp to lay a body on?

DIDN'T ARRIVE FOR 12 HOURS AFTER IT WAS FOUND??? (sorry for yelling)

Why?

That is what we are all having such a hard time with, houndstooth. There are so many mis-steps in this "investigation".

cynic
10-04-2011, 02:25 AM
I do have a question for you. Two actually my friend. First, when do you think Rebecca died? Do you think LE has it 'right' at 3 am? Or do you think it was closer to when people heard screams, around 11:30?

One of the variables affecting rigor onset time is the ambient temperature that that the body is exposed to. In this case, the temperature outdoors was 60 degrees and RZ was completely naked. This would slow the onset of rigor. As a matter of fact, “below 50 degrees it is said to be exceptional for rigor to develop.”
Guide to Forensic Medicine & Toxicology By B. Jain, page 54
A TOD of 11:30 PM is possible; I do think that given the conditions that an onset time of 5 or 6 hours is more likely than 3 or 4.

You might find the following interesting:
As a measure of time of death, rigor is very unreliable.
Like all chemical processes it is temperature-dependent. In warm conditions, rigor mortis appears quickly and passes off more quickly, due to the early onset of decomposition. In the cold, it may be delayed markedly and in freezing conditions, may not appear at all (though actual freezing of the body fluids in extreme frost may cause stiffening). When a cold body is brought into a warmer environment, then true rigor may quickly appear.
In average temperature conditions, rigor may be detected within 2-6 hours and be generally present within the first 8-12 hours though very wide variations can occur.
Fully developed rigor may last in “average” conditions for a further 24 hours and then begin to fade during the next day. The old rule of thumb that rigor takes 12 hours to come on lasts for 12 hours and takes 12 hours to pass off” can be relied upon only for its unreliability!
Rigor frequently is present up to the third or fourth day and may still be detectable after a week in some cases, especially in cold conditions. It is impossible for rigor and signs of decomposition to co-exist.
Virtually every textbook will quote a different range and all can be justified due to the lack of constancy of this labile phenomenon. An analysis by Mallach of opinions in textbooks and medical papers over a long period showed variations of between 30 minutes and seven hours for the onset of rigor, of 2-20 hours for full rigidity; and 24 – 96 hours for persistence of full rigor.
The time to fade from full rigor varied from 24 -192 hours, so it can be seen that the evidential value is slight.
One fairly reliable fact about rigor is that it comes on much more rapidly after death from electrocution - and also tends to appear quickly after severe exertion before death.
In children and frail, elderly people, it is frequently faint and transitory, depending to a considerable extent on the amount of muscle mass present.
As an index of time since death, it has very limited value and any opinion giving an exact time or a range of units of less than 3-5 hours during the first day in an untenable over-interpretation.
A more justifiable rule of thumb is that if a body is flaccid and warm, it has probably been dead less than six hours; if flaccid and cold, it has been dead more than about 2- 3 days. If cold and stiff, it is likely to have died between half a day and two days earlier.
Lawyers Guide to Forensic Medicine By Bernard Knight, page 193


Second, Do you think she died when she was hung?


The only way to answer that question is to try to make sense of the neck injuries.
There are issues that are difficult to explain with the hanging scenario alone, as has been discussed often, including fractures below the ligature line and very extensive petechiae.
These may be more readily explained by a prior strangulation event which may have resulted in the death of RZ.
I guess what I’m saying is that until such time as I hear a plausible explanation for all of the injuries to her neck being the exclusive result of hanging, I can’t rule out the possibility that RZ died prior to being hung and some of those injuries certainly make a compelling case for manual strangulation.

SunnieRN
10-04-2011, 03:10 AM
Cynic, thank you so much!! :yourock::fireworks::aktion:

Sharyne
10-25-2011, 02:04 AM
I have been following a case of a woman who fell down a stairs. Her husband found her at about 3:30 pm, was declared dead at 4:02 pm and the ME showed up at around 11:30 pm. So, that's only about 8 hours. The story is in the Parking Lot.

Zale
10-25-2011, 09:52 AM
I have been following a case of a woman who fell down a stairs. Her husband found her at about 3:30 pm, was declared dead at 4:02 pm and the ME showed up at around 11:30 pm. So, that's only about 8 hours. The story is in the Parking Lot.

Where do we find this story? What's the Parking Lot?

LCoastMom
10-27-2011, 11:56 AM
Where do we find this story? What's the Parking Lot?

The "Parking Lot" is found in the members only "Private Forums" area of the site. The thread in question was started before the case went public, as it is a WS family member it has remained there.

Link to thread "My Aunt!!!...": http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148915