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View Full Version : TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #12



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SheWhoMustNotBeNamed
07-22-2011, 12:49 AM
Gail Nowacki Palmgren is missing as of 4/30/11 from Signal Mountain TN.
She is driving a Jeep Rubicon, 4 door, Red, with AL license plate number "Eazy St" .
Gail is 5'8", blond hair, 135 lbs. Call Signal Mountain PD at 423-886-2124.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3550_5.gif

WRCB TV (http://www.wrcbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=14595650)
http://wrcb.images.worldnow.com/images/14595650_BG1.JPG
http://wrcb.images.worldnow.com/images/14595650_BG2.JPG


Thread # 1 (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135414&highlight=palmgren)
Thread # 2 (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136407&highlight=palmgren)
Thread # 3 (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136762&highlight=palmgren)
Thread # 4

Thread # 5

Thread # 6

Thread # 7

Thread # 8

Thread #9 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146390&highlight=Gail+Nowacki+Palmgren)

Thread #11


Gail Nowacki Palmgren Media Links (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135941&highlight=palmgren)

Gail Nowacki Palmgren Timeline (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136222&highlight=palmgren)

Gail Nowacki Palmgren Location Project (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144789&highlight=Gail+Nowacki+Palmgren)


Please continue here...

believe09
09-29-2011, 08:53 AM
If you have any information of tips to share please contact Hamilton County Sheriff's Criminal Investigations Division:

(423)209-8940 or (423)622-0022.

You can also submit a tip via email at:

investigations@hcsheriff.gov (investigations@hcsheriff.gov)

BeanE
09-29-2011, 09:02 AM
Most recent news article:

FIRST ON 3: No leads in search of Palmgren lake homes

Posted: Sep 27, 2011 12:55 PM EDT
Updated: Sep 28, 2011 11:40 PM EDT

In May, Wetumpka Police searched the area around the Palmgrens' home on Lake Jordan, just north of Montgomery, but found no evidence of foul play.

snip


"If there was credible evidence to show us that we would focus on criminal activity here, perhaps we would have moved a quicker on some of these things," said Hamilton County Sheriff Jim Hammond.

snip

In an interview Wednesday, Hammond told Channel 3 this is still a missing persons case.

"I've seen cases strange enough where you would just swear somebody was dead to foul play and they do turn up, even years later," said Hammond, "so you can't discount that."

snip

"Probably the best thing that can help us is if anyone happens to remember that unique Jeep with the insignia on the back, and can remember something that would assist us bring closure to this case," said Hammond.

http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/15559950/first-on-3-investigators-to-search-palmgren-lake-homes

Includes a video

BeanE
09-29-2011, 09:11 AM
Light a candle for Gail online (group name GailP):

http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/candles.cfm?l=eng&gi=GailP


Gail Palmgren official info on:

Hamilton County Sheriff’s Office (HCSO)
http://www.hcsheriff.gov/

Alabama Dept of Public Safety (ADPS):

- Gail Palmgren case information
http://dps.alabama.gov/Community/wfAlertFlyer.aspx?ID=b3b6be37-110f-4d81-a502-72285f950023

- Printable poster in PDF format
http://dps.alabama.gov/Community/wfReportPDF.aspx?Type=0&ID=b3b6be37-110f-4d81-a502-72285f950023

Shelby1
09-29-2011, 10:33 AM
Here is the article regarding the purchase of the new vehicle. It was TH that purchased it.


Snip:
About a week before Gail vanished her husband flew to Pennsylvania to attend an insurance conference.
Sources said he left the conference without attending any of the sessions and joined a female BlueCross employee at another location, and that they then drove back to Chattanooga together where she allegedly bought a car there, Chattanoogan.com reports.

http://www.examiner.com/missing-persons-in-national/gail-palmgren-missing-husband-co-worker-terminated-at-bluecross

sreshowtime
09-29-2011, 11:48 AM
Snip:
About a week before Gail vanished her husband flew to Pennsylvania to attend an insurance conference.
Sources said he left the conference without attending any of the sessions and joined a female BlueCross employee at another location, and that they then drove back to Chattanooga together where she allegedly bought a car there, Chattanoogan.com reports.

http://www.examiner.com/missing-persons-in-national/gail-palmgren-missing-husband-co-worker-terminated-at-bluecross

hmm ...wonder what he/they were up to during the time after leaving the conference and arriving back in Chattanooga..........and I don't mean just getting jiggy with it. Where did they go? Who did they talk to? What might they have been planning? What was more 'important' than attending a work related conference?

Shelby1
09-29-2011, 02:51 PM
And, why buy a car at THAT specific time??

BeanE
09-29-2011, 03:58 PM
It's been more than two months (July 13) since the request to the governor for a reward. Has anyone heard anything about a response?

Letter to the gov:

http://wrcb.images.worldnow.com/images/incoming/news/GovLetter.pdf

Pearl*
09-29-2011, 05:48 PM
Most recent news article:

FIRST ON 3: No leads in search of Palmgren lake homes

Posted: Sep 27, 2011 12:55 PM EDT
Updated: Sep 28, 2011 11:40 PM EDT

In May, Wetumpka Police searched the area around the Palmgrens' home on Lake Jordan, just north of Montgomery, but found no evidence of foul play.

snip


"If there was credible evidence to show us that we would focus on criminal activity here, perhaps we would have moved a quicker on some of these things," said Hamilton County Sheriff Jim Hammond.

snip

In an interview Wednesday, Hammond told Channel 3 this is still a missing persons case.

"I've seen cases strange enough where you would just swear somebody was dead to foul play and they do turn up, even years later," said Hammond, "so you can't discount that."
snip

"Probably the best thing that can help us is if anyone happens to remember that unique Jeep with the insignia on the back, and can remember something that would assist us bring closure to this case," said Hammond.

http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/15559950/first-on-3-investigators-to-search-palmgren-lake-homes

Includes a video

[bbm]

These statements seem odd to me, but I've never kept up so closely with a missing person case. Are these sort of standard "disclaimer" statements, or do some of you more experienced sleuthers think Sheriff Hammond has reason to believe Gail is alive?

I'll admit I long ago come to the conclusion that Gail surely was no longer alive, but this sounds cautiously positive to me.

Emeralgem
09-29-2011, 05:55 PM
Seems the plea to our Governor to help raise the reward money fell on deaf ears..Could be no funds are available for a reward to help find a mother of two children.. And since no evidence of foul play has been found, maybe he too thinks she just up and left on her own, leaving her children.. Could be, like our sheriff, he also thinks she may even return some time in the future..
No need to worry..hurry or concern themselves too much..This happens all the time.. Women up and leave their children...

Afterall the children do have their father ....IT IS WHAT IT IS...JMHO.

FTR.. Typing the above made me physically ill..JMHO

glorias
09-29-2011, 06:34 PM
No need to worry..hurry or concern themselves too much..This happens all the time.. Women up and leave their children...

Afterall the children do have their father ....IT IS WHAT IT IS...JMHO.


I see those comments a lot, too. It seems like quite a few people think that plenty of women suddenly turn into horrible, awful people (or "psychos") who steal their husband's money and run off abandoning the kids, and heaven forbid we waste one taxpayer cent trying to locate these rotten women.

Personally, I think if friends and relatives say Gail wouldn't have run off like that, then they're the ones who would know. Just my 2 cents.

hollyblue
09-29-2011, 06:42 PM
Well, sad to say, I don't think this "investigation" is going anywhere. Just that there is was no credible evidence to lead them to believe there was foul play. So are they saying they have evidence, but they just don't feel it's credible? Clarification? Isn't it normal to investigate to find some physical evidence if all you have is circumstantial......whether she left on her own, was murdered, or being held somewhere alive? If the last, I guess we can just wait till she escapes and shows up sometime in the future. Just moo, but truly, LE hasn't given us (public) anything in information that could be used in even looking for her. Nothing mentioned about what MP's PI found and turned over, not even if D&H finally turned over the computers. Maybe a little too close to the vest for a missing person case, IMO. I wish her family would come forward with any info and/or their thoughts if they feel LE is letting Gail's case go cold; but why aren't they?

"This was just a plan we had all along and it had been worked out between his, his attorney and our department."

http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/15559950/first-on-3-investigators-to-search-palmgren-lake-homes (http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/15559950/first-on-3-investigators-to-search-palmgren-lake-homes)

Oh well...(sigh).... I'm with you Em. Who's helping Gail Palmgren??? There are people thinking of you Gail, praying and asking for help in finding you. Shine your light girl. <3

***The yard looks horrible and makes the house look just as abandoned as GP. Maybe MP's budget only allows paid yard maintenance in MS now? Snark...

Pearl*
09-29-2011, 06:48 PM
I see those comments a lot, too. It seems like quite a few people think that plenty of women suddenly turn into horrible, awful people (or "psychos") who steal their husband's money and run off abandoning the kids, and heaven forbid we waste one taxpayer cent trying to locate these rotten women.

Personally, I think if friends and relatives say Gail wouldn't have run off like that, then they're the ones who would know. Just my 2 cents.

Honestly, I don't remember reading where anybody has portrayed her in that way.

Unless I've missed more than I think, the main theories are (1) accident; (2) murder; (3) mental breakdown causing her to disappear voluntarily for the time being. None of which would make her horrible, awful, or rotten.

I do feel confident that the sheriff's office knows more than we know. For that reason, I find his latest statement very curious, but maybe I'm reading more into it than is there, because I want something to be there.

Pearl*
09-29-2011, 06:51 PM
I wish her family would come forward with any info and/or their thoughts if they feel LE is letting Gail's case go cold; but why aren't they?


I agree. All I can come up with is that they don't believe it's as cold as it looks to us outsiders.

Melodie
09-29-2011, 06:54 PM
hmm ...wonder what he/they were up to during the time after leaving the conference and arriving back in Chattanooga..........and I don't mean just getting jiggy with it. Where did they go? Who did they talk to? What might they have been planning? What was more 'important' than attending a work related conference?

This has always seemed very odd to me, too. I am in the medical field and you don't skip out on a conference that the company has paid for you to attend without a really, really good reason. And, having an affair with someone you've been seeing for at least a little while wouldn't, in my opinion, be the reason. It is very risky due to the fact that there are probably other employees from the company also attending the conference and your absence would be noted. Even if others from the company were not there, an absence would still be noted by the people at the conference. It could really put your job in jeopardy. It would definitely be bad for your reputation at work to your superiors. I can't imagine this being a casual decision. What could be so important to risk losing 2 very prestigious positions? These positions at BCBS/TN are very coveted. Skipping out on the conference would also be more than sufficient grounds for termination. JMO

Emeralgem
09-29-2011, 08:51 PM
I see those comments a lot, too. It seems like quite a few people think that plenty of women suddenly turn into horrible, awful people (or "psychos") who steal their husband's money and run off abandoning the kids, and heaven forbid we waste one taxpayer cent trying to locate these rotten women.

Personally, I think if friends and relatives say Gail wouldn't have run off like that, then they're the ones who would know. Just my 2 cents.

I don't know IF our governor or our sheriff have daughters or not, but I feel certain IF they do, and this was one of their daughters who vanished/w/o a trace they would have found the means to up the reward..
And IF their son-n-law lawyered up immediately after their daughter's disappearance they wouldn't be assuming their daughter just up and left either.. I also suspect they would have found the means and been in a bigger hurry to conduct some extensive searches too...

McSpy
09-29-2011, 08:58 PM
Well, sad to say, I don't think this "investigation" is going anywhere. Just that there is was no credible evidence to lead them to believe there was foul play. So are they saying they have evidence, but they just don't feel it's credible? Clarification? Isn't it normal to investigate to find some physical evidence if all you have is circumstantial......whether she left on her own, was murdered, or being held somewhere alive? If the last, I guess we can just wait till she escapes and shows up sometime in the future. Just moo, but truly, LE hasn't given us (public) anything in information that could be used in even looking for her. Nothing mentioned about what MP's PI found and turned over, not even if D&H finally turned over the computers. Maybe a little too close to the vest for a missing person case, IMO. I wish her family would come forward with any info and/or their thoughts if they feel LE is letting Gail's case go cold; but why aren't they?

"This was just a plan we had all along and it had been worked out between his, his attorney and our department."

http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/15559950/first-on-3-investigators-to-search-palmgren-lake-homes (http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/15559950/first-on-3-investigators-to-
search-palmgren-lake-homes)

Oh well...(sigh).... I'm with you Em. Who's helping Gail Palmgren??? There are people thinking of you Gail, praying and asking for help in finding you. Shine your light girl. <3

***The yard looks horrible and makes the house look just as abandoned as GP. Maybe MP's budget only allows paid yard maintenance in MS now? Snark...

IMO, LE is not going to reveal everything to the public at this point. They could very well think this is foul play, but they just don't have a case yet. They aren't going to let the cat out of the bag prematurely. I honestly don't know what LE is thinking, but I'll make a bet they are only playing dumb.

JMO

glorias
09-29-2011, 10:38 PM
Honestly, I don't remember reading where anybody has portrayed her in that way.

The comments on Times Free Press and WRCBtv is what I was thinking of, along with dismissive "just another blonde white female missing" comments in the beginning.

glorias
09-29-2011, 10:44 PM
"If there was credible evidence to show us that we would focus on criminal activity here, perhaps we would have moved a quicker on some of these things," said Hamilton County Sheriff Jim Hammond.

"I've seen cases strange enough where you would just swear somebody was dead to foul play and they do turn up, even years later," said Hammond, "so you can't discount that."

I'm not really concerned about these statements. LE has been either refusing to say anything or, when they do speak, say there's no evidence anything happened. This is just the same old stuff, IMVHO.

I'd really like to know what cases Hammond has personally worked on where people assumed to be dead turned up years later.

Pearl*
09-29-2011, 11:13 PM
The comments on Times Free Press and WRCBtv is what I was thinking of, along with dismissive "just another blonde white female missing" comments in the beginning.

Wow. I don't remember those specifics--and not asking for a link here--but I hope they were random comments from an anonymous citizen or two rather than anything more. I'd like to have enough faith in humanity to believe those attitudes aren't common.


I'd really like to know what cases Hammond has personally worked on where people assumed to be dead turned up years later.

I think that is an excellent question. Maybe one of the reporters will follow up on that.

Pearl*
09-29-2011, 11:45 PM
I'm not sure what the current rules are regarding facebook links, but I personally have been confused by all the contact numbers and requests floating around regarding tips. This thread may help anybody who has been wondering as I have been. I did see Believe's post earlier regarding the HCSO, but the additional specific names and phone numbers that keep circulating--and especially the request on the CUE website--raised questions for me. Particularly since the family requested CUE become involved (I think), the mixed messages seem odd IMO.

I hope to read a response to the last question at some point. I do not understand if if CUE and LE work together or separately, and if separately... I'm wondering if CUE's tips go to LE as well. Since CUE states that tips to them are confidential, the water gets muddier for me. So, for what it's worth, Maria's response here indicates to me that all calls regarding any types of tips should still go to HCSO.

https://www.facebook.com/HopeforGail#!/HopeforGail/posts/253357551374254

Irish_Eyes
09-30-2011, 12:53 AM
I think I know what you are referring to. An earlier post listing the same contact you gave, as well as CUE and FBI? Personally, I don't really see the issue if it is Gail's family that asked CUE to become involved in the first place, and Gail's family that asked FBI to become involved. Obviously, Gail's family was looking for additional resources beyond what HCSO had available to help find Gail (and I can't say in the same situation I wouldn't have done the same.) HCSO is the lead agency, but perhaps there are people out there who have info, who for their own reasons would not want to contact HCSO. Perhaps they disagree with HCSO handling of this case or a prior case. Maybe they have a record or a guilty conscience or just don't want to deal with LE. So I'm not sure listing all of those options is a bad thing. We only need that one tip to bring Gail home, I totally believe that.

hollyblue
09-30-2011, 12:58 AM
I don't think there's any confusion. Cue lists the LE agency's phone # handling the missing person's case-- to the left of their contact info for all the cases they are viewing. HCSD phone # is listed. I'm sure Cue contacts the investigative agency if they receive a call. Since the family has requested Cue's assistance, I'm sure their trust is with them. IMO http://www.ncmissingpersons.org/gail-palmgren/

Investigative Agency
Hamilton Co Sheriff (Tennessee)
(423) 209-8945
If you have any information on this case please contact CUE Center For Missing Persons using the contact form below or contact Cue Center at (910) 343-1131 24 hour tipline (910) 232-1687.

hollyblue
09-30-2011, 01:07 AM
I think I know what you are referring to. An earlier post listing the same contact you gave, as well as CUE and FBI? Personally, I don't really see the issue if it is Gail's family that asked CUE to become involved in the first place, and Gail's family that asked FBI to become involved. Obviously, Gail's family was looking for additional resources beyond what HCSO had available to help find Gail (and I can't say in the same situation I wouldn't have done the same.) HCSO is the lead agency, but perhaps there are people out there who have info, who for their own reasons would not want to contact HCSO. Perhaps they disagree with HCSO handling of this case or a prior case. Maybe they have a record or a guilty conscience or just don't want to deal with LE. So I'm not sure listing all of those options is a bad thing. We only need that one tip to bring Gail home, I totally believe that.
BBM

Exactly. The FBI is turning over all the leads to HCSD because they are still the lead in GP's case. If you scroll about halfway down the page, you'll see all the contact numbers available under CA's post of today.

http://www.facebook.com/BRINGGAILNOWACKIPALMGRENHOMENOW?ref=ts

Emeralgem
09-30-2011, 06:52 AM
Five months ago today Gail Palmgren disappeared without a trace

Prayers for Gail and her children.

Shelby1
09-30-2011, 10:11 AM
This has always seemed very odd to me, too. I am in the medical field and you don't skip out on a conference that the company has paid for you to attend without a really, really good reason. And, having an affair with someone you've been seeing for at least a little while wouldn't, in my opinion, be the reason. It is very risky due to the fact that there are probably other employees from the company also attending the conference and your absence would be noted. Even if others from the company were not there, an absence would still be noted by the people at the conference. It could really put your job in jeopardy. It would definitely be bad for your reputation at work to your superiors. I can't imagine this being a casual decision. What could be so important to risk losing 2 very prestigious positions? These positions at BCBS/TN are very coveted. Skipping out on the conference would also be more than sufficient grounds for termination. JMO

I totally see what you're saying, but I think for these two people, it WAS important enough....I think they thought no one would notice if they snuck off for a little "nookie".

OR

They were planning and scheming about something that would make it possible for them to be together......

Shelby1
09-30-2011, 10:14 AM
Five months ago today Gail Palmgren disappeared without a trace

Prayers for Gail and her children.


I can't believe it's already been this long. I'm sad and frustrated.

Shelby1
09-30-2011, 10:17 AM
BeanE, was it you that so smartly saved the CUE report before it got changed? If so, would you mind re-posting it here?

If it wasn't you...can someone re-post it?

BeanE
09-30-2011, 10:50 AM
BeanE, was it you that so smartly saved the CUE report before it got changed? If so, would you mind re-posting it here?

If it wasn't you...can someone re-post it?

I may have erred in posting it, and don't want to repeat that error. Would you please check with a mod to ensure it's okay?

Just trying to stay out of trouble :angel:

BeanE
09-30-2011, 11:37 AM
Honestly, I don't remember reading where anybody has portrayed her in that way.



Me either. I went through the WRCB and Times Free Press comments and there's not a single thing even remotely like any of that.

I guess maybe they were all deleted or something.

lalalu
09-30-2011, 12:24 PM
I may have erred in posting it, and don't want to repeat that error. Would you please check with a mod to ensure it's okay?

Just trying to stay out of trouble :angel:

I have wondered where the additional info in the original CUE report came from. Any thoughts? Also, I know the news reports said that family asked for the CUE assist. Are friends or associates allowed to start a file with CUE as well?

BeanE
09-30-2011, 12:29 PM
"Probably the best thing that can help us is if anyone happens to remember that unique Jeep with the insignia on the back, and can remember something that would assist us bring closure to this case," said Hammond.

http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/15559950/first-on-3-investigators-to-search-palmgren-lake-homes

It would be great to see a very active Flyer distribution campaign to get pictures of the Jeep out.

BeanE
09-30-2011, 06:32 PM
It's been more than two months (July 13) since the request to the governor for a reward. Has anyone heard anything about a response?

Letter to the gov:

http://wrcb.images.worldnow.com/images/incoming/news/GovLetter.pdf

Sorry to quote my own post, but I got an answer to my question:

calliestarnes Callie Starnes
Today marks 5 months since Gail Palmgren last seen. DA's office says still no word yet on if Gov. will approve reward $ in case.
2 hours ago

http://twitter.com/#!/calliestarnes/status/119862695485911040

Melodie
09-30-2011, 07:23 PM
Me either. I went through the WRCB and Times Free Press comments and there's not a single thing even remotely like any of that.

I guess maybe they were all deleted or something.

I think they have removed those posts because I remember them, too. I noticed recently that the comments that I remembered were no longer there following the various early articles in the case. That may be normal procedure, I'm not sure. I do remember comments stating that she probably just ran off and it's "just another missing blonde woman". There were definitely some negative comments that were really unkind and hard to read. I have not seen any comments like that in a long, long time. Most of the comments now are quite different. JMO

Pearl*
09-30-2011, 08:11 PM
I don't think there's any confusion. Cue lists the LE agency's phone # handling the missing person's case-- to the left of their contact info for all the cases they are viewing. HCSD phone # is listed. I'm sure Cue contacts the investigative agency if they receive a call. Since the family has requested Cue's assistance, I'm sure their trust is with them. IMO http://www.ncmissingpersons.org/gail-palmgren/



[bbm]

At this point, I'm not sure either bolded statement is true. I would agree that the family must have trusted CUE in order to ask for their assistance, but this post from Maria N. (today's addition to thread--currently the last post) makes me wonder if they may be having second thoughts.

More importantly, I'm concerned that if any tips are going to CUE, they may not be getting to LE.

"Cue Center is supposed to work with Law enforcement, however to date LE has not been notified by the Cue Center."

https://www.facebook.com/HopeforGail#!/HopeforGail/posts/253357551374254


In addition, I see that Diane's daily update has been revised to emphasize HCSO's contact information. I have trouble seeing this as coincidence.

https://www.facebook.com/HopeforGail#!/profile.php?id=100000103098913&sk=wall

And again from Maria, this time on her own FB: https://www.facebook.com/maria.petrillonowacki#!/maria.petrillonowacki/posts/175487482531487

Does anybody on WS have previous experience with CUE?

glorias
09-30-2011, 09:07 PM
I think they have removed those posts because I remember them, too. I noticed recently that the comments that I remembered were no longer there following the various early articles in the case. That may be normal procedure, I'm not sure.


Back in May, Snowbunny and I both noticed nastier comments were missing. Pearl* might remember this, she briefly discussed compiling the negative comments. Here are a couple of the posts in that discussion. We noticed early on that comments were disappearing from newspaper articles:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #4

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #4


Times Free Press has at least two people, Rolando and HannaBeckman, who love to post nasty things on a variety of articles, including Gail's. Some of their stuff has been deleted, like in this article, where someone refers to HannaBeckman but her original comment was removed:

http://timesfreepress.com/news/2011/may/12/missing-womans-husband-seeks-custody-children/


HannaBeckman in action, not yet deleted:

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2011/may/07/police-searching-missing-signal-woman/?local


I mentioned the "blonde woman" stuff a long time ago too. It's a very common trope, Wikipedia (for what that's worth) even has a whole entry on Missing White Woman Syndrome. The most blatant comment I found was on a locked LiveJournal community so I can't list it (you couldn't access the page) but I did a quick search and found similar ones:


How many poor, black or Hispanic women have gone missing since April 30?

http://timesfreepress.com/news/2011/may/12/missing-womans-husband-seeks-custody-children/


I fear some harm has come to this White Woman...

http://timesfreepress.com/news/2011/may/17/missing-woman-search-continues-gail-palmgren/


I'm kind of surprised people are acting like I made it all up when it only took me about 10 minutes to find a lot of what I was specifically referring to.

Annie_61
09-30-2011, 09:21 PM
Does anyone know if the LE and other families of missing people have had any previous experience working with CUE? as not all missing person cases end up on WS.

Do DN and KN have concerns regarding the CUE foundations and their involvement in missing person cases? If so I hope they voice them.
Did Diane's daily update every mention contacting CUE? the only change I see is on the post saying it’s been 5 month she has changed the layout of her post.

Seems that Maria put up comment up after a the involvement with CUE was questioned on the HFG page, wonder if admin there are trying to scare the family away from using such a professional group as CUE by casting doubt on the organisation. (I didn’t put up a link as Peals links take you to the comments)

I hope if Maria has concerns regarding CUE she gets them to remove Gail from their site, would hate to think important information was being withheld by them. I hope she is voicing her concerns to DN as well.

Thank you Pearl your post certainly does raise a lot of questions. Being from Australia where we don’t have CUE I just would have never thought to have doubted their ability to deal with cases like Gail’s after only reading brilliant comments and reports on the CUE foundation.

5 month and still no answers :(

Pearl*
09-30-2011, 09:24 PM
Back in May, Snowbunny and I both noticed nastier comments were missing. Pearl* might remember this, she briefly discussed compiling the negative comments. Here are a couple of the posts in that discussion. We noticed early on that comments were disappearing from newspaper articles:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #4 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6578154&postcount=212)

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #4 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6580326&postcount=277)


Times Free Press has at least two people, Rolando and HannaBeckman, who love to post nasty things on a variety of articles, including Gail's. Some of their stuff has been deleted, like in this article, where someone refers to HannaBeckman but her original comment was removed:

http://timesfreepress.com/news/2011/may/12/missing-womans-husband-seeks-custody-children/


HannaBeckman in action, not yet deleted:

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2011/may/07/police-searching-missing-signal-woman/?local


I mentioned the "blonde woman" stuff a long time ago too. It's a very common trope, Wikipedia (for what that's worth) even has a whole entry on Missing White Woman Syndrome. The most blatant comment I found was on a locked LiveJournal community so I can't list it (you couldn't access the page) but I did a quick search and found similar ones:



http://timesfreepress.com/news/2011/may/12/missing-womans-husband-seeks-custody-children/



http://timesfreepress.com/news/2011/may/17/missing-woman-search-continues-gail-palmgren/


I'm kind of surprised people are acting like I made it all up when it only took me about 10 minutes to find a lot of what I was specifically referring to.

Glorias, I don't think you are making anything up. I just said I didn't remember it. I never compiled any negative comments, although I did mention there could have been a valid purpose for doing so at that time. These posts were long ago. The context was different, and I do not remember what "brand" of negativity I referred to back in May. I'm not sure how it's relevant now.

I am definitely willing to concede the fact that negative comments have been made about this case, if that will help us move forward. I'm sorry if my post got us off track.

glorias
09-30-2011, 09:35 PM
I haven't kept up with this Cue thing, but I personally thought it was a legitimate organization because I have seen it mentioned on Websleuths a lot -- Stacy Peterson's case, Monica Caison, Lindsay Baum, Mary Badaracco, Brittanee Drexel, and others. There's a report here on WS that Cue was out searching for Brittanee, so they apparently do actual live searches for the missing.

Delilah posts about Cue occasionally here and on her blog, and I believe the lady who runs Cue is on Delilah's show quite a bit. I guess that's why I always thought they were legit.

Emeralgem
09-30-2011, 09:51 PM
I haven't kept up with this Cue thing, but I personally thought it was a legitimate organization because I have seen it mentioned on Websleuths a lot -- Stacy Peterson's case, Monica Caison, Lindsay Baum, Mary Badaracco, Brittanee Drexel, and others. There's a report here on WS that Cue was out searching for Brittanee, so they apparently do actual live searches for the missing.

Delilah posts about Cue occasionally here and on her blog, and I believe the lady who runs Cue is on Delilah's show quite a bit. I guess that's why I always thought they were legit.

IMHO... Community United Effort (CUE) is legit..

http://www.ncmissingpersons.org/

Pearl*
09-30-2011, 09:54 PM
I haven't kept up with this Cue thing, but I personally thought it was a legitimate organization because I have seen it mentioned on Websleuths a lot -- Stacy Peterson's case, Monica Caison, Lindsay Baum, Mary Badaracco, Brittanee Drexel, and others. There's a report here on WS that Cue was out searching for Brittanee, so they apparently do actual live searches for the missing.

Delilah posts about Cue occasionally here and on her blog, and I believe the lady who runs Cue is on Delilah's show quite a bit. I guess that's why I always thought they were legit.

It's good to hear the endorsements of CUE. I've not researched them in any way, and I've not read up on the other case threads. I'm not even questioning whether they are legit. But I do wonder if they have somewhat "dropped the ball" on this case. IF this has happened, it could be for a variety of reasons, such as too heavy a caseload. Not necessarily anything that would call their competence or integrity into question. I simply do not know.


Seems that Maria put up comment up after a the involvement with CUE was questioned on the HFG page, wonder if admin there are trying to scare the family away from using such a professional group as CUE by casting doubt on the organisation.

I can't imagine why anybody would want to scare the family away from an organization that could help. I believe Maria simply answered a question.

As for the change in Diane's posts, I see a new emphasis with capital letters.

Melodie
09-30-2011, 10:05 PM
I haven't kept up with this Cue thing, but I personally thought it was a legitimate organization because I have seen it mentioned on Websleuths a lot -- Stacy Peterson's case, Monica Caison, Lindsay Baum, Mary Badaracco, Brittanee Drexel, and others. There's a report here on WS that Cue was out searching for Brittanee, so they apparently do actual live searches for the missing.

Delilah posts about Cue occasionally here and on her blog, and I believe the lady who runs Cue is on Delilah's show quite a bit. I guess that's why I always thought they were legit.

I agree. I have no personal experience, but have heard very good things about CUE. It was my understanding that their practice is to work closely with LE and that they will only get involved at the request of the family. It is very, very disappointing to hear of them being criticized as Gail's case is, in my opinion, in dire need of a group such as this to aid in the search. There has been very little in the way of organized searches for Gail and her Jeep. Many were very relieved and pleased that finally, Gail's disappearance would receive more attention and professional volunteers assisting with her case. I certainly hope that their involvement does not end prematurely, as I don't think they have actually been able to begin the work of looking for Gail yet. How sad. I cannot believe how poor Gail has been gone for 5 months now and it seems to be such a struggle to get anyone to search for her. I look every day when I am driving around town to work and home again. I notice every Jeep I pass on the roads. I just don't think that's enough. For the life of me, I do not understand. JMO

glorias
09-30-2011, 10:09 PM
It's good to hear the endorsements of CUE.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying those posts I found were endorsements. When I heard Cue was joining in I did a search and found all those mentions on Websleuths along with indications they did live searches, so I figured they were legit, but that was just me.

I'm not sure what the complaint about Cue on Facebook actually says. I mean that literally -- Cue hasn't contacted LE with what exactly? Is she saying Cue has tips they haven't passed on? Since the tips are confidential, I guess I wonder how she would know Cue has info they haven't told LE.

Annie_61
09-30-2011, 10:11 PM
As for the change in Diane's posts, I see a new emphasis with capital letters.

thanks for that explanation Pearl, must be my screen as the contact info has always been in capital letters on her daily post, which is why I didn't see it as any change.

Annie_61
09-30-2011, 10:20 PM
I agree. I have no personal experience, but have heard very good things about CUE. It was my understanding that their practice is to work closely with LE and that they will only get involved at the request of the family. It is very, very disappointing to hear of them being criticized as Gail's case is, in my opinion, in dire need of a group such as this to aid in the search. There has been very little in the way of organized searches for Gail and her Jeep. Many were very relieved and pleased that finally, Gail's disappearance would receive more attention and professional volunteers assisting with her case. I certainly hope that their involvement does not end prematurely, as I don't think they have actually been able to begin the work of looking for Gail yet. How sad. I cannot believe how poor Gail has been gone for 5 months now and it seems to be such a struggle to get anyone to search for her. I look every day when I am driving around town to work and home again. I notice every Jeep I pass on the roads. I just don't think that's enough. For the life of me, I do not understand. JMO

Melodie not a direct comment on your post, just using it as a springboard regarding CUE.

Gosh then this does really make me wonder why a FB page administrator would try and cast doubt on them so as to discourage people away from contacting them. Also makes me wonder how close affiliation MP has with the site, trying to steer people away from a foundation like CUE that might be able to help search.

I would have thought any page that was genuinely there to promote finding Gail would be embracing the involvement of CUE after reading here and through the net the great work they do…UNPAID at that. Not questioning them.
As always just some of my thoughts.

Pearl*
09-30-2011, 10:22 PM
thanks for that explanation Pearl, must be my screen as the contact info has always been in capital letters on her daily post, which is why I didn't see it as any change.

Ok, well what I see is a change from:

Have you seen Gail or her Jeep? If anyone has any information pertaining to Gail or her Jeep, Please Call Police Immediately. POLICE: 911 OR HAMILTON COUNTY SHERIFF OFFICE: 423-622-0022

to

Have you seen Gail or her Jeep?
IF ANYONE HAS ANY INFORMATION PERTAINING TO GAIL OR HER JEEP PLEASE CALL POLICE IMMEDIATELY. POLICE: 911 OR HAMILTON COUNTY SHERIFF OFFICE: 423-622-0022

These are direct copy/pastes from the last two posts.

lalalu
09-30-2011, 10:25 PM
From what I can tell, CUE is legit...I just was never sure if it was actually the family who started the CUE process since I didn't see where they mentioned it or endorsed it or otherwise. The news outlets did say family, but there was never anything more descriptive than that. I could have missed something of course.

Pearl*
09-30-2011, 10:28 PM
Ok, it took me a minute to see your point, because HFG doesn't operate from that perspective.

But sure, if somebody didn't want the truth to come out, this could explain the scenario you describe.

Annie_61
09-30-2011, 10:36 PM
Ok, it took me a minute to see your point, because HFG doesn't operate from that perspective.



How can anybody be sure of that, nobody really knows what goes on behind ther scenes of any website.

believe09
09-30-2011, 10:47 PM
Melodie not a direct comment on your post, just using it as a springboard regarding CUE.

Gosh then this does really make me wonder why a FB page administrator would try and cast doubt on them so as to discourage people away from contacting them. Also makes me wonder how close affiliation MP has with the site, trying to steer people away from a foundation like CUE that might be able to help search.

I would have thought any page that was genuinely there to promote finding Gail would be embracing the involvement of CUE after reading here and through the net the great work they do…UNPAID at that. Not questioning them.
As always just some of my thoughts.

BBM-who are you referring to? TIA.

Emeralgem
09-30-2011, 11:20 PM
Melodie not a direct comment on your post, just using it as a springboard regarding CUE.

Gosh then this does really make me wonder why a FB page administrator would try and cast doubt on them so as to discourage people away from contacting them. Also makes me wonder how close affiliation MP has with the site, trying to steer people away from a foundation like CUE that might be able to help search.

I would have thought any page that was genuinely there to promote finding Gail would be embracing the involvement of CUE after reading here and through the net the great work they do…UNPAID at that. Not questioning them.
As always just some of my thoughts.

My thoughts exactly..Community United Effort..CUE... United We Stand..Divided We Fall...JMHO

hollyblue
09-30-2011, 11:56 PM
I found this missing man's case in TN here on WS (missing as of Monday) and thought it interesting that the TBI was there the next morning and today the Marshall's Service came on board. ??? He could use some support..

Must admit, I had a crazy thinking minute when I discovered he was/is connected to a some kind of auto "appearance" business. He's from Elkton, KY., but missing from Lewisburg, TN.

http://www.marshalltribune.com/story/1768941.html

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7176492&posted=1#post7176492

hollyblue
10-01-2011, 12:14 AM
I haven't kept up with this Cue thing, but I personally thought it was a legitimate organization because I have seen it mentioned on Websleuths a lot -- Stacy Peterson's case, Monica Caison, Lindsay Baum, Mary Badaracco, Brittanee Drexel, and others. There's a report here on WS that Cue was out searching for Brittanee, so they apparently do actual live searches for the missing.

Delilah posts about Cue occasionally here and on her blog, and I believe the lady who runs Cue is on Delilah's show quite a bit. I guess that's why I always thought they were legit.

I don't know if there is a problem between Cue and family, but Gail's case is still on Cue's website. Maybe Marie could update us on any searches they may be planning?

Glorias, is Delilah the same Delilah that's on the SSM show? TIA

hollyblue
10-01-2011, 12:27 AM
IMHO... Community United Effort (CUE) is legit..

http://www.ncmissingpersons.org/

Some of the pics on her website show her working with the FBI on searches, and since DN called the FBI, maybe the FBI is the liason between Cue and HCSD?

Annie_61
10-01-2011, 02:34 AM
BBM-who are you referring to? TIA.

Sorry Believe09 I don’t know who they are they don't say who they are. Let’s just hope by them casting aspersions on how CUE operates doesn’t affect CUE’s involvement into Gail’s disappearance.

Maybe someone else might know who is the administrator is and can answer.

BeanE
10-01-2011, 07:19 AM
I haven't kept up with this Cue thing, but I personally thought it was a legitimate organization because I have seen it mentioned on Websleuths a lot -- Stacy Peterson's case, Monica Caison, Lindsay Baum, Mary Badaracco, Brittanee Drexel, and others. There's a report here on WS that Cue was out searching for Brittanee, so they apparently do actual live searches for the missing.


Monica Caison is not a missing person like the other cases she's listed with here. She's the head of CUE.

I know she's not missing because I just communicated with her on Sunday.

I'd asked Monica where tips should be sent. I can't post private messages from FB here, but I had sent a copy to a mod, so it can be verified.

Monica from CUE stated that tips for Gail's case should be sent to LE.

Annie_61
10-01-2011, 07:52 AM
Monica Caison is not a missing person like the other cases she's listed with here. She's the head of CUE.

I know she's not missing because I just communicated with her on Sunday.

I'd asked Monica where tips should be sent. I can't post private messages from FB here, but I had sent a copy to a mod, so it can be verified.

Monica from CUE stated that tips for Gail's case should be sent to LE.

Does anyone else think it slightly amusing that Glorias put Monica’s name in amongst the names of missing. With all the time it looks like she spends out on the road looking for missing people maybe her family have reported her missing because they never see her.:floorlaugh:

Thank you for that information BeanE I am sure it helps those who were confused.

I don’t think anyone here was questioning who to contact it has been more about if CUE is a legitimate organisation after Pearls post raising concerns regarding how they operate.

Snipped from Pearls comment.

More importantly, I'm concerned that if any tips are going to CUE, they may not be getting to LE.
And this
Does anybody on WS have previous experience with CUE?

But it is good to know someone from WS has been in touch with CUE and can personaly verify that tips are to go to the LE.

BeanE
10-01-2011, 08:59 AM
I don’t think anyone here was questioning who to contact it has been more about if CUE is a legitimate organisation after Pearls post raising concerns regarding how they operate.

Snipped from Pearls comment.

More importantly, I'm concerned that if any tips are going to CUE, they may not be getting to LE.
And this
Does anybody on WS have previous experience with CUE?


Based on Gail's family member's statement about CUE not yet contacting LE, I share the concern about whether tips sent to CUE can be relied on to get to LE.

Anyone who has followed a number of these cases, and seen what happens when tips are mis-directed, and there are delays in the tips getting to LE, or they never get to LE, will also share that concern.

Tips need to get to the lead LE agency. Period.

Tips need to get to the lead LE agency without delays. Period.

In every missing person case, everyone should ensure that their tip goes first to the lead agency, and that there is no risk of delay. That is what is in the best interests of the missing person.

It's fine and dandy to also, additionally, afterwards, send your tip to whatever other agency or organization you want.

Just make sure the first place you send it, it will first go to the lead agency, and that it will go without delays.

Just keep a copy, and then, afterwards, send it to everyone and anyone you feel can help the missing person if they have the info as well.

ETA: Do you have any idea how frequently, in the numerous cases on WS, that people ask, "Has anybody ever heard of such-and-such a search org? Anybody ever work with them?"

It doesn't mean anybody has any concerns at all. It's a simple question, seeking information. Asking questions is a good thing. Seeking information is a good thing.

Emeralgem
10-01-2011, 09:16 AM
CUE will be in Chattanooga on Saturday October 22 however I don't know IF a search will be conducted at that time. My understanding is the visit is part of a tour they conduct to raise awareness about missing persons.
I did read CUE is conducting a search for Jacque Waller in MO today.


http://www.kfvs12.com/story/15587497/cue-leads-search-for-jacque-waller

lalalu
10-01-2011, 09:20 AM
,

Snipped from Pearls comment.

More importantly, I'm concerned that if any tips are going to CUE, they may not be getting to LE.
And this
Does anybody on WS have previous experience with CUE?

But it is good to know someone from WS has been in touch with CUE and can personaly verify that tips are to go to the LE.

I think where all this questioning came from was that on HFG, one of Gail's relatives, DPN, in a comment which was likely an attempt to clarify the relationship between CUE and LE said something to the effect that LE had not been "notified" by the CUE center.

The statement by itself really doesn't say much either way about whether or not things are going the way one would hope.

I don't think anyone should be faulted for questioning various resources - it is only because the questioner is concerned with whether the resources are optimizing their assistance (or not impeding other's assistance). As long as the questioning is respectful, it should be OK to question. (and generally, respectfulness seems to be the tone here on WS)

BeanE
10-01-2011, 09:38 AM
Pearl, to answer your question, I never heard of CUE until the Susan Murphy Milano radio show that Arlene made an appearance on where Susan mentioned it.

<modsnip>

I found a little bit, but not a whole lot. I really don't have enough information on CUE to have any useful opinion about them. I can't say I think they do a good job, and neither can I say I think they do a bad job. I just don't know.

It doesn't matter what I think of CUE anyway.

The only thing that matters is what Gail's family thinks of CUE, whether they feel it's a good fit for whatever services it is they're seeking in regards to Gail's case.

I don't even know what services Gail's family is seeking, so even for the search organizations I am familiar with, I can't say which might be good ones for them to consider.

And not knowing what services Gail's family is seeking, I don't even know if a search organization is the type of entity that can best meet their needs.

Depending on what a family is seeking, sometimes a PI can better meet those needs.

I don't give a flying leap what anybody else thinks Gail's family - or any other family of a missing person - should do, what type of entities they should engage, whether they should engage any entities, whether they should go in the media or not, what they should or shouldn't say in the media.

The only thing I do give a flying leap about is that the families of missing persons know that there are no right answer or wrong answers. Nobody knows the missing person better than they do, and therefore, nobody can better determine what's in the missing person's best interests.

Further, if one thing a family tries doesn't work, it's perfectly okay. They can just try something else they feel will help.

If Gail's family wants CUE, I support them 100%. If they don't, they get the same amount of my support. If they want to try a PI, same support. If they feel speaking publicly will help, same support. If they feel being quiet is best, same support.

Diane, Kevin and Maria are good, caring, smart, capable people, who know Gail, and care about her.

I can't think of any knowledge or experience or anything else that I have that would make me better qualified to say what's best for Gail than any of them would.

So my place is to support the people I feel are best qualified. I'm behind them 100%.

And I don't envy them. All the rest of us can do to help is to collect the best information we can, and give it to them. They've got the very tough job of making the decisions, and choosing what to try out, and when. My heart goes out to them.

Pearl, you asked a very short and simple question, and I gave you a very long and detailed answer. Much more, I'm sure, than you were looking for. Just scroll by the drivel. :)

:grouphug:

Pearl*
10-01-2011, 12:33 PM
,

I think where all this questioning came from was that on HFG, one of Gail's relatives, DPN, in a comment which was likely an attempt to clarify the relationship between CUE and LE said something to the effect that LE had not been "notified" by the CUE center.

The statement by itself really doesn't say much either way about whether or not things are going the way one would hope.

I don't think anyone should be faulted for questioning various resources - it is only because the questioner is concerned with whether the resources are optimizing their assistance (or not impeding other's assistance). As long as the questioning is respectful, it should be OK to question. (and generally, respectfulness seems to be the tone here on WS)

Lalalu, thank you for your post. I haven't seen many from you lately.

Your kind words are much appreciated. The interpretations of some of my posts last night took me by surprise. If I were not curious by nature I never would have found my way to this forum. Yes, I tend to ask questions and then sometimes be curious about the answers. It's all part of being an analytical-type person. I never imagined that to share on WS some of the information found elsewhere on the internet (along with questions about the information) would not be well-received.

I have no reason to believe CUE is anything but legitimate and have never stated otherwise. I had questions about their organization because I am not familiar with missing person cases in general and had never heard of them before.

I support all efforts of individuals and/or organizations to work with law enforcement in helping to solve this case, and I hope for the best resolution possible for all concerned.

Pearl*
10-01-2011, 12:35 PM
Pearl, to answer your question, I never heard of CUE until the Susan Murphy Milano radio show that Arlene made an appearance on where Susan mentioned it.

[snipped for space]

Pearl, you asked a very short and simple question, and I gave you a very long and detailed answer. Much more, I'm sure, than you were looking for. Just scroll by the drivel. :)

:grouphug:

Thank you BeanE. I appreciate all the information and share all your concerns about the family members.

ETA: Length and detail much appreciated. Thanks for your time in sharing it.

Pearl*
10-01-2011, 12:44 PM
I don’t think anyone here was questioning who to contact it has been more about if CUE is a legitimate organisation after Pearls post raising concerns regarding how they operate.

Snipped from Pearls comment.

More importantly, I'm concerned that if any tips are going to CUE, they may not be getting to LE.
And this
Does anybody on WS have previous experience with CUE?

But it is good to know someone from WS has been in touch with CUE and can personaly verify that tips are to go to the LE.


Based on Gail's family member's statement about CUE not yet contacting LE, I share the concern about whether tips sent to CUE can be relied on to get to LE.



[bbm]

Thank you, BeanE. I appreciate you for taking the time to put my comments back into the context within which I made them.

Snowbunny
10-01-2011, 01:07 PM
I just looked at the CUE website and was very impressed. Its too bad we didn't have more people like Monica Caison who has devoted her whole life to finding missing people and helping the families. If each day we reached out to someone in need and in some way tried to make a difference what a wonderful world this would be.

Emeralgem
10-01-2011, 01:20 PM
Where was Matt P the entire afternoon of the 30th before he supposedly went to the Lookouts game with the children on the night of the 30th? Can he be accounted for as being present and on the scene during the entire game? Where did he go when he left the ballgame? Were the children with him? Did he go home with the children or did the chidren spend the night somewhere else? Does he have an alibi
and witnesses to verify his alibi, and IF so who are they? Have they lawyered up too or have they spoken with LE to confirm his whereabouts that afternoon/evening/night?

I haven't heard LE state his whereabouts can be accounted for...JMHO

JMHO

Shelby1
10-01-2011, 01:28 PM
Where was Matt P the entire afternoon of the 30th before he supposedly went to the Lookouts game with the children on the night of the 30th? Can he be accounted for as being present and on the scene during the entire game? Where did he go when he left the ballgame? Were the children with him? Did he go home with the children or did the chidren spend the night somewhere else? Does he have an alibi
and witnesses to verify his alibi, and IF so who are they? Have they lawyered up too or have they spoken with LE to confirm his whereabouts that afternoon/evening/night?

I haven't heard LE state his whereabouts can be accounted for...JMHO

JMHO


The only thing I've heard is from MP himself. Supposedly he was at his mother's place.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136222&highlight=palmgren

Emeralgem
10-01-2011, 03:24 PM
The only thing I've heard is from MP himself. Supposedly he was at his mother's place.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136222&highlight=palmgren

Shelby thanks for the link...

According to that information.....

Matt P. said he was at his mothers (25 minutes away)
he proposed to meet Mrs. Palmgren at the residence on April 30,
but when he arrived (at what time?) she was gone, having left the two children "by themselves without any supervision."



First off, his mother doesn't live 25 minutes away form the residence on Ridgerock..


Secondly, didn't someone state he arrived 10 minutes after Gail left?

Where did that information come from and do we have any knowledge of what he was doing from the time he supposedly came home and then supposedly left for the ballgame with the children? Did he take the children to the game that night or did someone else take the children to the ball game and he met them there? Do we know? I suspect someone knows....JMHO

sarx
10-01-2011, 06:35 PM
So, where is the Jeep?
Is it in the woods somewhere and just hasn't been found yet?
Is it in a lake?
Is it in the river?

Is she strapped into it at the bottom of the river?

How can we find that car?

Pearl*
10-01-2011, 06:53 PM
So, where is the Jeep?
Is it in the woods somewhere and just hasn't been found yet?
Is it in a lake?
Is it in the river?

Is she strapped into it at the bottom of the river?

How can we find that car?

I have always been suspicious of the River Canyon Road area. My thoughts are due to its remote location and easy accessibility. I know the area was searched, but I do not know to what extent. Aside from that, I think of Prentice Cooper, again for the same reasons. The quickest, easiest water access, however, remains River Canyon Road, to my knowledge--assuming one would want to get off of Suck Creek Road, which is not so remote.

These are my impressions, although I am somewhat impaired in my knowledge of geography.

I believe that if that jeep had traveled far from home, somebody would remember seeing it. Far enough from home, it would have needed gas along the way.

Melodie
10-01-2011, 07:17 PM
Shelby thanks for the link...

According to that information.....

Matt P. said he was at his mothers (25 minutes away)
he proposed to meet Mrs. Palmgren at the residence on April 30,
but when he arrived (at what time?) she was gone, having left the two children "by themselves without any supervision."



First off, his mother doesn't live 25 minutes away form the residence on Ridgerock..


Secondly, didn't someone state he arrived 10 minutes after Gail left?

Where did that information come from and do we have any knowledge of what he was doing from the time he supposedly came home and then supposedly left for the ballgame with the children? Did he take the children to the game that night or did someone else take the children to the ball game and he met them there? Do we know? I suspect someone knows....JMHO

I think there has been very little reported on his whereabouts on 4/30 except what you have mentioned. The Lookouts game started at 7:15 on Saturday night. That leaves approx. 7 hours between the last time we know for sure Gail was seen and the start of the game.

Melodie
10-01-2011, 07:25 PM
So, where is the Jeep?
Is it in the woods somewhere and just hasn't been found yet?
Is it in a lake?
Is it in the river?

Is she strapped into it at the bottom of the river?

How can we find that car?

Excellent questions. There would need to be organized searches, in my opinion. IIRC, very early on, LE searched a section of suck creek for a few hours. There was a small group of volunteers that showed up to search around Signal Mt. a couple of times on the first few weekends after Gail disappeared. Another 2 volunteers searched together on foot around Signal Mt. back a month or two ago. These are the only searches I am aware of. Organized searches are desperately needed. JMO

redfish
10-01-2011, 07:28 PM
I have always been suspicious of the River Canyon Road area. My thoughts are due to its remote location and easy accessibility. I know the area was searched, but I do not know to what extent. Aside from that, I think of Prentice Cooper, again for the same reasons. The quickest, easiest water access, however, remains River Canyon Road, to my knowledge--assuming one would want to get off of Suck Creek Road, which is not so remote.

These are my impressions, although I am somewhat impaired in my knowledge of geography.

I believe that if that jeep had traveled far from home, somebody would remember seeing it. Far enough from home, it would have needed gas along the way.

Pearl, I agree. At some point someone would have reported a gas stop. It would have had to been a cash purchase I believe. Seems it would be memorable. She is still in the area somewhere. This could have been an accident, sure it could. But.... this is so frustrating. My heart really bleeds for this family. It seems like we should be able to find her by now.

Emeralgem
10-01-2011, 07:43 PM
I have always been suspicious of the River Canyon Road area. My thoughts are due to its remote location and easy accessibility. I know the area was searched, but I do not know to what extent. Aside from that, I think of Prentice Cooper, again for the same reasons. The quickest, easiest water access, however, remains River Canyon Road, to my knowledge--assuming one would want to get off of Suck Creek Road, which is not so remote.

These are my impressions, although I am somewhat impaired in my knowledge of geography.

I believe that if that jeep had traveled far from home, somebody would remember seeing it. Far enough from home, it would have needed gas along the way.

Is there road access to the River Canyon Road from Suck Creek Road and Prentice Cooper ?
Also, IF traveling I-24 headed toward Birmingham I-59/Nashville I-24 split what exit would one take to reach River Canyon Road? Would it be Cummings Hwy, Browns Ferry Road, Racoon Mtn exit?

Pearl*
10-01-2011, 08:29 PM
Is there road access to the River Canyon Road from Suck Creek Road and Prentice Cooper ?
Also, IF traveling I-24 headed toward Birmingham I-59/Nashville I-24 split what exit would one take to reach River Canyon Road? Would it be Cummings Hwy, Browns Ferry Road, Racoon Mtn exit?

Like I said, I'm terrible on directional issues.

http://www.mapquest.com/

Annie_61
10-01-2011, 08:38 PM
Can someone local tell us how often a road accident goes unfound for months in that area, is it a common thing? Have there been others who haven’t been found for months/ years after they had an accident? Are there many reported missing people from the area that they put it down to must have had an accident? If so what roads does it happen on and have these roads been search?
Stats on this might help proved an idea of areas to search

Emeralgem
10-01-2011, 08:50 PM
Like I said, I'm terrible on directional issues.

http://www.mapquest.com/

Thanks for the link to mapquest.. I searched for River Canyon Road and I can't tell what roads one would travel to get there...But thanks anyways...

http://mapq.st/nKf3sX

Emeralgem
10-01-2011, 08:54 PM
Can someone local tell us how often a road accident goes unfound for months in that area, is it a common thing? Have there been others who haven’t been found for months/ years after they had an accident? Are there many reported missing people from the area that they put it down to must have had an accident? If so what roads does it happen on and have these roads been search?
Stats on this might help proved an idea of areas to search

Not a common thing that I am aware of....JMHO..

Annie_61
10-01-2011, 09:20 PM
It seem that MP has done what he liked, when he liked to get rid of Gail.

It seems he was just lucky enough (or planned exceptionally well) to do it without leaving any evidence in clear view, then again it seems that wouldn’t have been hard with the amount of searching done at the start. Heck there could have had her stashed in a cupboard in the house and had months to get rid of evidence.

It seems MP hasn’t shown any caring towards making things easier for his children by putting a stop to rumour, gossip or accusations by going from assisting LE to cooperating to the fullest and showing he has nothing to hide. True he has the right to hide behind an attorneys skirt but common sense would tell us that if you have nothing to hide and you want to take the pressure of your children regarding rumours etc then say something get it out there and silence those accusing. (Arrogance or ego may be behind that of course)

It seems tips going to CUE and not straight to the LE might be a concern but its ok for computers that could contain vital evidence go off to god knows where for god knows what reason instead of being handed straight to LE is of no big deal and normal. ( I would love to search for information on the place they went but we don’t know where they went) That one truly has me mystified.

It seems that this case carries many many similarities to early stages of case like Susan Powell, Stacy Patterson, Jacque Waller to name just a few and sadly so many more that have become real cold cases over the years. A lot of them had friends who came out and straight out accused the husband publicly but it seems because AD doesn’t use fancy words and isn’t tech savvy some people chose to instead bash her. Yet there is nothing I have seen her say that is unbelieve able. I would try and form an opinion on what MP has said but he is NOT talking.

It seems this case would be one that has good reason to question the husband’s involvement in his wife’s disappearance and that feeling comes from years of being personally involved with LE here in Australia not just reading about them on a website. (2 uncles, 3 nephews, 3 cousins and 2 dear friends all LE) Two of whom have read the threads on Gail and other information on the net and have voiced opinions which of course I will not post here as it is hearsay. (but it does influence my thoughts regarding this all)

<modsnip>

It seems to be some AD bashing on the net for all sorts of reasons and that is people’s right to speak as they want, just as it is AD choice to point the finger at MP with what she knows. So far I haven’t seen one reason to look at MP and go yes I see he wouldn’t have done a thing to hurt Gail. I have seen comments re he might have spoken to, or he might be searching (which would mean TH is helping of course) I haven’t seen hard evidence that disproves AD or proves AD right but on the other hand I haven’t seen anything to prove MP hasn’t done Gail harm or that he has done a damn thing to help find the mother of his children either. It seems to come down to people’s choice as to whom they want to believe (Works for me at least)

So I ask myself

Why won’t MP stand up like a man and talk?

What has MP got to hide that he needs an attorney to speak for him?

Who is watching out for Gail’s assets?

Where is the Jeep?

But the question always in my mind when I think of Gail is …Where is Gail?

Again these are just my random thoughts that I am posting, I don’t need or ask anyone to agree with me and to those who don’t agree with me that is you choice and I would never want your right to disagree with me taken away by anyone. Just like the right to remain silent I have the right to form an opinion and to speak about it. When/if Gail is found and it is can be proved that MP had nothing to do with it I will happily change my opinion. That is the beauty of being able to use your own brain and not be bullied or intimidated into thinking like others.

So again random thoughts running around in my head formed from reading stuff from all over the net.

glorias
10-01-2011, 09:26 PM
Does anyone else think it slightly amusing that Glorias put Monica’s name in amongst the names of missing.

Sorry about that. If Monica is reading, I apologize. The "research" I did on Cue when it was first mentioned was by searching WS for mentions of it. Since I didn't remember the results I got from that search a few weeks ago, I did a repeat search yesterday and just quickly listed the names without thinking about it.

glorias
10-01-2011, 09:40 PM
Shelby thanks for the link...

According to that information.....

Matt P. said he was at his mothers (25 minutes away)
he proposed to meet Mrs. Palmgren at the residence on April 30,
but when he arrived (at what time?) she was gone, having left the two children "by themselves without any supervision."

First off, his mother doesn't live 25 minutes away form the residence on Ridgerock..

Secondly, didn't someone state he arrived 10 minutes after Gail left?

Where did that information come from and do we have any knowledge of what he was doing from the time he supposedly came home and then supposedly left for the ballgame with the children? Did he take the children to the game that night or did someone else take the children to the ball game and he met them there? Do we know? I suspect someone knows....JMHO

There have been rumors that he was out running errands with his mom, not at his mom's house. The first time I heard that he was at his mom's house was here on WS, and after that on another forum (I think in those TFP comments again) someone said he was out running errands. I don't think either was mentioned in a newspaper article proper, but don't hold me to that.

Arlene mentioned the 10 minutes in the comments of a newspaper article:

http://timesfreepress.com/news/2011/may/12/missing-womans-husband-seeks-custody-children/


And they was only left for 10min before the dad came home, according to the neighbor.



The baseball game was mentioned here on WS, I think McGyver told us, again I'll have to check on that. I'm nowhere near my notes on the case so I'll have to get back to you with some links if I have any.

Something odd about the baseball game is that the first Jammer interview had Jammer telling Arlene that Lee Davis told him TH's alibi for the night was also a baseball game. It was an alibi to prove she wasn't the lady in the Jeep that was seen on the trails. That always seemed really odd to me, because the trails sighting was never confirmed and barely mentioned after those first news articles anyway. I've always wondered if TH's "alibi" was the same baseball game with MP and the kids.

Emeralgem
10-01-2011, 11:27 PM
There have been rumors that he was out running errands with his mom, not at his mom's house. The first time I heard that he was at his mom's house was here on WS, and after that on another forum (I think in those TFP comments again) someone said he was out running errands. I don't think either was mentioned in a newspaper article proper, but don't hold me to that.

Arlene mentioned the 10 minutes in the comments of a newspaper article:

http://timesfreepress.com/news/2011/may/12/missing-womans-husband-seeks-custody-children/





The baseball game was mentioned here on WS, I think McGyver told us, again I'll have to check on that. I'm nowhere near my notes on the case so I'll have to get back to you with some links if I have any.

Something odd about the baseball game is that the first Jammer interview had Jammer telling Arlene that Lee Davis told him TH's alibi for the night was also a baseball game. It was an alibi to prove she wasn't the lady in the Jeep that was seen on the trails. That always seemed really odd to me, because the trails sighting was never confirmed and barely mentioned after those first news articles anyway. I've always wondered if TH's "alibi" was the same baseball game with MP and the kids.

BBM.. For some reason I'm thinking the alibi provided for her was a softball tournament being held in another location other than Chattanooga..
BTW..Do we even know when TH moved to Mississippi, or WHY she even moved there? JMHO..

glorias
10-02-2011, 12:14 AM
Okay, finally home with my ginormous file of notes. This stuff may have been answered already by now.

Regarding the kids being alone 10 minutes and MP running errands with his mom: It seems AD saying a neighbor (possibly SB?) saw MP return about 10 minutes later is the only info we have on this. I notice fbx, who is verified, questioned how accurate the 10 minutes was:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #4


fbx also questioned whether MP was at his mom's house or not. I don't think anyone could find anything more specific than AD's comment on TFP that I linked earlier.

The rumor about errands was very very early on, I see mentions of it on WS as early as May 15. Also on May 15, Forums4Justice has this in the timeline saying MP was at his mom's house 25 minutes away. I cannot find the original source of the info for either claim.

TN Gail Palmgren Timeline http://bit.ly/lVCfth - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


Notice that it says 25 minutes away, but F. Lee (a local) said they drove that route and it was only 13 minutes.

TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #4 - Page 21 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


Regarding the baseball game: I'm having a heck of a time finding the source on this. As far as I know, it was first mentioned as only a possibility by Confused back in May:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #1


It looks like somewhere around August 7 or 8 we heard MP really was seen at the Lookouts game being jovial and very outgoing because that's when we started talking about it.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #9

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #9


There's more out there, but that's the best I can do with a migraine.

As for TH, I checked the transcript and Emeralgem is right, Jammer says it was a "softball weekend tournament in Mississippi" so not the same game.

fran
10-02-2011, 01:46 PM
Attention! Please.....

Ok, I'm going to reopen this thread so those interested can discuss the disappearance of Gail Palmgren. We would like to ask that from here forward, you please NOT refer to any facebook or blogs that are talking about this case. That would include links or references to anything they've posted on those forums.

Listen. This is not a contest and it's not a game. This is about a missing mother/sister and attempting to figure out, what the heck happened to her. Just like all the other missing women/men cases, this is unique, but yet the same. There are the usual cast of charactors/possible POI. After you've watched a few of these types of cases, there's normal behavior and then there's 'suspicious' behavior. Everyone here on Websleuths has their own ideas of what happened to Gail and who THEY think may be responsible. It's not for anyone of us to tell others how they should think, it is after all, THEIR OPINION. But we do NOT accuse anyone that has not been named a suspect or a POI by LE. You can say their behavior is 'unusual' or however you feel, but that doesn't mean the poster is accusing them. It means they are suspicious of how they reacted to Gail's disappearance and subsequently.

There are also individuals who are involved in this case and have been named in MSM, though their own doing. You may discuss them, but just like everyone else involved in this case, you may NOT accuse them of anything. You can say you find their actions suspicious and state your case, but be ready for others to disagree. Please don't alert on a post just because you 'disagree' with it. If it's stated as opinion and not stating someone is guilty of anything, it will be left on the forum.

IF you are related in any way to someone connected to the case and you get upset because what someone is saying about your acquaintanace, perhaps you should stop reading here. I'm not trying to discourage participation by any member, but everyone of us is entitled to our opinion. Just because it isn't what you want to hear, the posters are still allowed to voice their concerns as long as they're NOT accusing anyone. Saying someone's actions are suspicious, is not ACCUSING them.

Remember, this is about Gail. It isn't about the husband, his family, his mistress or anything else. It's not about Facebook or other blogs. It's trying to figure out what happened to Gail and if there's anything any of us can think of that might HELP bring Gail home to her children/family.

Thank you for your cooperation. IF you have any questions, you may contact me or any of the other mods by pm.

Sincerely,

fran



Where is Gail?

hollyblue
10-02-2011, 04:08 PM
Ok, I had this thought last night, while the thread was closed and reading the Susan Powell thread. Mods, if you feel this is inappropiated, please delete.

Because of some of the suspicious circumstances surrounding MP in Gail's case, I was wondering why he had not been named a POI. Those following other missing person's cases with the same circumstance are aware-- the hubby is usually named a POI and the circumstances are frequently labeled as suspicious by LE---not so here. It's just a missing person's case..not suspicious. Josh Powell is one of those hubbies. His children were removed from his custody--mainly because he is a POI under suspicion and being investigated in Susan's disappearance...along with being suspected and investigated in voyeurism , as his father was recently arrested and charged. Heads of organizations advocating for children and their lawyers have stated this is the main reason for the children being taken, and he would most likely not be given custody of the children again until cleared of both. I'm just speculating on whether this would be a factor MP's attorneys would be working hard to thwart, because of a custody issue?

hollyblue
10-02-2011, 04:35 PM
I totally see what you're saying, but I think for these two people, it WAS important enough....I think they thought no one would notice if they snuck off for a little "nookie".

OR

They were planning and scheming about something that would make it possible for them to be together......

I think what's odd about this trip is the fact the conference was supposedly in MN and they allegedly went to PA for some reason. Was it only to buy the car? If so, was it a specific car that was only available there...or did they know someone in the area? Have other reasons for going there. They had opportunity to be...er...together in MN and not have to travel the distance to PA. imo

Snowbunny
10-02-2011, 05:49 PM
I think what's odd about this trip is the fact the conference was supposedly in MN and they allegedly went to PA for some reason. Was it only to buy the car? If so, was it a specific car that was only available there...or did they know someone in the area? Have other reasons for going there. They had opportunity to be...er...together in MN and not have to travel the distance to PA. imo

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that MP was at a conference in MN and TH was at another conference in PA.

Emeralgem
10-02-2011, 05:51 PM
Ok, I had this thought last night, while the thread was closed and reading the Susan Powell thread. Mods, if you feel this is inappropiated, please delete.

Because of some of the suspicious circumstances surrounding MP in Gail's case, I was wondering why he had not been named a POI. Those following other missing person's cases with the same circumstance are aware-- the hubby is usually named a POI and the circumstances are frequently labeled as suspicious by LE---not so here. It's just a missing person's case..not suspicious. Josh Powell is one of those hubbies. His children were removed from his custody--mainly because he is a POI under suspicion and being investigated in Susan's disappearance...along with being suspected and investigated in voyeurism , as his father was recently arrested and charged. Heads of organizations advocating for children and their lawyers have stated this is the main reason for the children being taken, and he would most likely not be given custody of the children again until cleared of both. I'm just speculating on whether this would be a factor MP's attorneys would be working hard to thwart, because of a custody issue?

Good question as to why he hasn't been IMHO..

I can't locate the article but IIRC when DN called SMPD for a wellness check on the 2nd, SMPD went out there and no one was at home.. What is puzzling to me is the officer claims no one was home and goes on to state there was no evidence of foul play. My question is how did he know there wasn't any foul play involved, IF no one was home? Did he go back to the residence when MP called and reported her missing and look around inside the house at that time?


Also, Sheriff Hammond stated... "It would be very difficult for you to plan to get rid of someone and a Jeep and not leave some piece of evidence that someone saw"

http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/15144246/fbi-now-looking-at-gail-palmgren-disappearance

After reading the article I can't imagine Sheriff Hammond not thinking foul play is invoved..JMHO

And IF MP is refusing to sit down and talk to LE, or allowing the children to speak with LE, I don't know how they can clear him.. I would suspect under those circumstances he is a POI even IF he has not been officially named a POI...JMHO

hollyblue
10-02-2011, 06:07 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that MP was at a conference in MN and TH was at another conference in PA.

I've haven't seen that stated anywhere Snowbunny, but if it has, I missed it and would appreciate a link to clarify. I know MSM stated the conference was in PA, but someone here posted that it was in MN and then someone found on the web where there was one indeed in MN. There was a conference in PA, but I believe it was only for the company sponsoring it, and it wasn't BCBS, iirc. I don't believe it was ever stated where exactly TH was or if she was suppose to be in MN, but the only place MSM places them together was in PA and then driving back to TN. If, I'm incorrect....or my memory is slipping, please someone correct me. tia

hollyblue
10-02-2011, 06:22 PM
Good question as to why he hasn't been IMHO..

I can't locate the article but IIRC when DN called SMPD for a wellness check on the 2nd, SMPD went out there and no one was at home.. What is puzzling to me is the officer claims no one was home and goes on to state there was no evidence of foul play. My question is how did he know there wasn't any foul play involved, IF no one was home? Did he go back to the residence when MP called and reported her missing and look around inside the house at that time?


Also, Sheriff Hammond stated... "It would be very difficult for you to plan to get rid of someone and a Jeep and not leave some piece of evidence that someone saw"

http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/15144246/fbi-now-looking-at-gail-palmgren-disappearance

After reading the article I can't imagine Sheriff Hammond not thinking foul play is invoved..JMHO

And IF MP is refusing to sit down and talk to LE, or allowing the children to speak with LE, I don't know how they can clear him.. I would suspect under those circumstances he is a POI even IF he has not been officially named a POI...JMHO
I've wonder that also...along with did they even call MP to question him about Gail's whereabouts before MP was cornered into filing a MPR?

I know the family doesn't want any national attention, but I'd love for someone or the media to bring this issue up, because I think like you and I, many are contemplating the same question. IMO, JMO

Josh was very guarded with his two boys also, in not letting them talk to Susan's family, etc. The oldest boy at the time of her disappearce was close to 4 at the time..and did talk to LE, but under the circumstances, I really don't think LE could count on his recollections and thought they could be emeshed with other "outings" the family had taken. LE even stated so. Not so in Gail's case, they are older and are said to be very smart kids, and MP and his attorneys probably has a very good reason for not allowing them to talk to LE...or anyone about what happened that day. IMO.

Irish_Eyes
10-02-2011, 06:36 PM
I have been following a case local to me on WS for the past few days. Patrick Borally. It is worth a read IMHO because it shows a very different reaction by LE to a case of a missing adult who seemingly drove into oblivion. Comparing the responses in these two cases is more eye opening when you consider the contacts Gail had with LE leading up to her disappearance.

Emeralgem
10-02-2011, 06:36 PM
I've haven't seen that stated anywhere Snowbunny, but if it has, I missed it and would appreciate a link to clarify. I know MSM stated the conference was in PA, but someone here posted that it was in MN and then someone found on the web where there was one indeed in MN. There was a conference in PA, but I believe it was only for the company sponsoring it, and it wasn't BCBS, iirc. I don't believe it was ever stated where exactly TH was or if she was suppose to be in MN, but the only place MSM places them together was in PA and then driving back to TN. If, I'm incorrect....or my memory is slipping, please someone correct me. tia

IMO.Thats a long drive..

http://mapq.st/othAG5

And an even longer drive from Minnesoto to Pennsylvania.. IMHO. So If he even bothered to fly to Minnesoto he most probably caught the next flight out to Pennsylvania..That is IF they both drove in to Chattanooga on Friday the 29th together..JMHO

http://mapq.st/o8x09K

confused
10-02-2011, 06:41 PM
Ok, I had this thought last night, while the thread was closed and reading the Susan Powell thread. Mods, if you feel this is inappropiated, please delete.

Because of some of the suspicious circumstances surrounding MP in Gail's case, I was wondering why he had not been named a POI. Those following other missing person's cases with the same circumstance are aware-- the hubby is usually named a POI and the circumstances are frequently labeled as suspicious by LE---not so here. It's just a missing person's case..not suspicious. Josh Powell is one of those hubbies. His children were removed from his custody--mainly because he is a POI under suspicion and being investigated in Susan's disappearance...along with being suspected and investigated in voyeurism , as his father was recently arrested and charged. Heads of organizations advocating for children and their lawyers have stated this is the main reason for the children being taken, and he would most likely not be given custody of the children again until cleared of both. I'm just speculating on whether this would be a factor MP's attorneys would be working hard to thwart, because of a custody issue?

I have seen so many comments on this thread and the previous 11 threads trying to compare this case to all the other missing person cases that we see. However, as Fran said in her statement above, each case is different. Each case is unique! It has been stated that Matt must be guilty of something, because he hasn't done this or that, and because that is how all these cases go, well, that is taking a lot for granted and in my opinion is increasing the chances of never finding the truth. Yes, if it were my family member missing, I would want her found, but I would not want the wrong person accused. I would want to know the truth-the real truth of the matter, not what everyone thought, because that is how it happened with this case and that case.

In answer to your question, there are some very odd circumstances with Gail's case. She was seen driving away, under her own steam. She also had a conversation WITH LE and her sister just before she disappeared. We have not been given the contents of those conversations. Those conversations are the key here. I believe that she told LE what she was planning to do. I think she may have even told Diane. The problem arises when she did not end up where she stated she was going. I believe that Matt has not been named a POI because the LE know where Gail was planning to be and how far she got on that journey, and they also know where Matt was and what he was doing. They may have knowledge that Matt had no idea where Gail was headed and therefore could not have possibly followed her or had her followed. LE has much more info than we do, and the fact that they haven't named Matt a POI, they continually state there is no evidence of foul play and that this is a missing persons case clearly shows that whatever Gail told them, it was not that Matt was after her.

Continually bringing up the other cases and names like Josh Powell, Drew Peterson, and Sam Parker seems to be an attempt to associate Matt with them. Again, in my opinion, that is taking the easy way out - not spending the effort and time to search out what really happened, but jumping to the 'usual' conclusion. Gail deserves better than that. Her children deserve to know what really happened, not what was thought to have happened, based on what happened in other big cases of the time. Again, if this were my family memeber, I wouldn't feel they were getting justice unless I was positive the right person was accused, charged, and prosecuted. It doesn't matter how many times those names are listed together, it does not change any of the facts in any of the cases, and so far in this case, the LE does not appear to consider Matt a POI.

In fact-there has been no POI named at all in Gail's case. Why? Because LE has not found evidence of a crime, and you can't have a POI unless you have evidence of a crime. Those of you who follow these cases know that the naming of a POI or suspect, means LE has found some evidence. It may be circumstantial and not enough to be confident in a conviction, but it indicates that they have something. That's the major difference between this case and every other case that has been brought up. In all the other cases, LE *knew* they had a crime. In Gail's, they don't appear think they do, and based on what they were told in that last phone conversation with her - may know for sure they don't.

hollyblue
10-02-2011, 07:13 PM
Confused, do you know what the context of the threats were to DN regarding Gail having 12hrs and 10hrs?

I respect your thoughts and opinions, but I feel, in my own opinion, he should be a POI at this point.

hollyblue
10-02-2011, 07:29 PM
IMO.Thats a long drive..

http://mapq.st/othAG5

And an even longer drive from Minnesoto to Pennsylvania.. IMHO. So If he even bothered to fly to Minnesoto he most probably caught the next flight out to Pennsylvania..That is IF they both drove in to Chattanooga on Friday the 29th together..JMHO

http://mapq.st/o8x09K
posted June 7, 2011

Sources said about a week prior to the disappearance of Gail Palmgren that Matt Palmgren flew to Pennsylvania to attend an insurance conference.

Sources said he left the conference without attending any of the sessions and joined a female BlueCross employee at another location, then they drove back to Chattanooga together after she allegedly bought a car there.

http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_202911.asp (http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_202911.asp)

I'd love to know who wrote that article. I don't believe a correction was ever printed. ?

He left the conference, so he was there apparently. The ? is where was the other location he met the female employee who later purchased the vehicle? Was it PA...I thought so, but it could it have been MS or nearby Memphis?

Maybe confused can help with any info she may have gathered?

glorias
10-02-2011, 08:45 PM
snipped to save space


She also had a conversation WITH LE and her sister just before she disappeared. We have not been given the contents of those conversations. Those conversations are the key here. I believe that she told LE what she was planning to do. I think she may have even told Diane.

The comments DN has made sound like she didn't tell DN why she was scared or what she was doing. I'm referring to what was in the media as well as what was on that Cue website before it was taken down. Then DN came to Signal to search and pass out fliers, and she said on news interviews that she and Dan had driven all over Chattanooga. Wouldn't she have searched where Gail was supposed to have gone if Gail told her where she was headed next? Or do you think Gail was just going somewhere nearby in Signal or the surrounding area?



Continually bringing up the other cases and names like Josh Powell, Drew Peterson, and Sam Parker seems to be an attempt to associate Matt with them.

With respect, Websleuths is a huge website with tons of forums on a bunch of missing persons. It's only natural comparisons are going to be made, many of us follow multiple cases while here.



In fact-there has been no POI named at all in Gail's case. Why? Because LE has not found evidence of a crime, and you can't have a POI unless you have evidence of a crime.

Well... I don't know if I personally agree with that. I've followed some missing persons cases where there was no real evidence of a crime. In one case I've followed for a while, I believe the sum total of evidence is an unconfirmed sighting and a broken light bulb. Not much, but police treat it like a crime, even though the circumstances are such that it's possible those ladies drove off on their own.

This is just my opinion: I don't believe "there's nothing to say she didn't run off to start a new life" is compelling evidence to support that theory. Thus far, I haven't heard anything to support that theory, only the idea that police might have some evidence which might point to Gail running off and abandoning everything.

For me, I can't be convinced that Gail would have abandoned hundreds of thousands of dollars in her own accounts, her kids, her sister, her family jewelry which she cared enough to hide with the G's, her credit cards, and the cash she left with others. And if AD, SB, DN and DN's husband all say Gail wouldn't run off like this, I'm taking their word for it, because they know her.

sarx
10-02-2011, 08:53 PM
Just because a POI has not been named does NOT mean that LE doesn't have one or several. It just means they haven't named one publicly. There are lots of reasons for doing that.

ttowngirl
10-02-2011, 09:49 PM
maybe the person of interest is a female

believe09
10-03-2011, 09:07 AM
Attention! Please.....

Ok, I'm going to reopen this thread so those interested can discuss the disappearance of Gail Palmgren. We would like to ask that from here forward, you please NOT refer to any facebook or blogs that are talking about this case. That would include links or references to anything they've posted on those forums.

Listen. This is not a contest and it's not a game. This is about a missing mother/sister and attempting to figure out, what the heck happened to her. Just like all the other missing women/men cases, this is unique, but yet the same. There are the usual cast of charactors/possible POI. After you've watched a few of these types of cases, there's normal behavior and then there's 'suspicious' behavior. Everyone here on Websleuths has their own ideas of what happened to Gail and who THEY think may be responsible. It's not for anyone of us to tell others how they should think, it is after all, THEIR OPINION. But we do NOT accuse anyone that has not been named a suspect or a POI by LE. You can say their behavior is 'unusual' or however you feel, but that doesn't mean the poster is accusing them. It means they are suspicious of how they reacted to Gail's disappearance and subsequently.

There are also individuals who are involved in this case and have been named in MSM, though their own doing. You may discuss them, but just like everyone else involved in this case, you may NOT accuse them of anything. You can say you find their actions suspicious and state your case, but be ready for others to disagree. Please don't alert on a post just because you 'disagree' with it. If it's stated as opinion and not stating someone is guilty of anything, it will be left on the forum.

IF you are related in any way to someone connected to the case and you get upset because what someone is saying about your acquaintanace, perhaps you should stop reading here. I'm not trying to discourage participation by any member, but everyone of us is entitled to our opinion. Just because it isn't what you want to hear, the posters are still allowed to voice their concerns as long as they're NOT accusing anyone. Saying someone's actions are suspicious, is not ACCUSING them.

Remember, this is about Gail. It isn't about the husband, his family, his mistress or anything else. It's not about Facebook or other blogs. It's trying to figure out what happened to Gail and if there's anything any of us can think of that might HELP bring Gail home to her children/family.

Thank you for your cooperation. IF you have any questions, you may contact me or any of the other mods by pm.

Sincerely,

fran



Where is Gail?

Just bumping fran's rules of the road-

Gail where are you??

BeanE
10-03-2011, 09:15 AM
CUE Road to Remembrance will have a rally stop for Gail:

Tennessee - Signal Mountain
Hosted by - Friends of Gail Pilgren (their spelling - not mine)

http://www.ncmissingpersons.org/on-the-road-to-remember-national-tour-2010/

confused
10-03-2011, 10:42 AM
I have been following a case local to me on WS for the past few days. Patrick Borally. It is worth a read IMHO because it shows a very different reaction by LE to a case of a missing adult who seemingly drove into oblivion. Comparing the responses in these two cases is more eye opening when you consider the contacts Gail had with LE leading up to her disappearance.

I was following this one too, and did you see? They found him! Perfectly safe, in Canada. Apparently he just got in his big van and drove away. So glad for his family that he was located. Just thought you would want to know, if you didn't.

Emeralgem
10-03-2011, 10:55 AM
maybe the person of interest is a female

IMHO..Could very well be since his mother and the girlfriend both lawyered up immediately...IMHO They are either covering for him or themselves...JMHo

McSpy
10-03-2011, 11:49 AM
Okay, finally home with my ginormous file of notes. This stuff may have been answered already by now.

Regarding the kids being alone 10 minutes and MP running errands with his mom: It seems AD saying a neighbor (possibly SB?) saw MP return about 10 minutes later is the only info we have on this. I notice fbx, who is verified, questioned how accurate the 10 minutes was:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April

2011 - #4 (http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6562481&postcount=53)

fbx also questioned whether MP was at his mom's house or not. I don't think anyone could find anything more specific than AD's comment on TFP that I
linked earlier.

The rumor about errands was very very early on, I see mentions of it on WS as early as May 15. Also on May 15, Forums4Justice has this in the timeline saying MP was at his mom's house 25 minutes away. I cannot find the
original source of the info for either claim.

TN Gail Palmgren Timeline http://bit.ly/lVCfth - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136222)

Notice that it says 25 minutes away, but F. Lee (a local) said they drove that route and it was only 13 minutes.

TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #4 - Page 21 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6615470#post6615470)

Regarding the baseball game: I'm having a heck of a time finding the source on this. As far as I know, it was first mentioned as only a possibility by Confused back in May:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #1 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6489013&postcount=494)


It looks like somewhere around August 7 or 8 we heard MP really was seen at the Lookouts game being jovial and very outgoing because that's when we started talking about it.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April
2011 - #9 (http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7000605&postcount=97)

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #9 (http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7003700&postcount=165)


There's more out there, but that's the best I can do with a migraine.

As for TH, I checked the transcript and Emeralgem is right, Jammer says it was a "softball weekend tournament in Mississippi" so not the same game.

If he claimed to LE that he was his mother's house, but actually wasn't there may explain why his mother retained a lawyer. Maybe? I could be wrong . . .

hollyblue
10-03-2011, 12:21 PM
If he claimed to LE that he was his mother's house, but actually wasn't there may explain why his mother retained a lawyer. Maybe? I could be wrong . . .

Could be his cell was at his mother's house.....and he wasn't, imo.

Irish_Eyes
10-03-2011, 12:37 PM
I was following this one too, and did you see? They found him! Perfectly safe, in Canada. Apparently he just got in his big van and drove away. So glad for his family that he was located. Just thought you would want to know, if you didn't.

Yes I did see that! Thank goodness. Guess you really can't hide from the FBI. It is just so odd to me that LE seemed to devote so many resources to finding him right away when there was no more evidence than in Gail's case.

Oriah
10-03-2011, 01:31 PM
I have always been suspicious of the River Canyon Road area. My thoughts are due to its remote location and easy accessibility. I know the area was searched, but I do not know to what extent. Aside from that, I think of Prentice Cooper, again for the same reasons. The quickest, easiest water access, however, remains River Canyon Road, to my knowledge--assuming one would want to get off of Suck Creek Road, which is not so remote.

These are my impressions, although I am somewhat impaired in my knowledge of geography.

I believe that if that jeep had traveled far from home, somebody would remember seeing it. Far enough from home, it would have needed gas along the way.

Pearl*, this post made me think of something else as well.
I had brought up fuel stations earlier, in as far as surveillance cameras and sightings- but I didn't think to sift through the ones that specifically don't have either along the possible routes of travel.
Thank you.

Off to try and narrow that down. Tank refills of fuel (at a station, by the fuel co) are federally regulated. Guess I should search that info.
Thanks again.

redfish
10-03-2011, 01:49 PM
Pearl*, this post made me think of something else as well.
I had brought up fuel stations earlier, in as far as surveillance cameras and sightings- but I didn't think to sift through the ones that specifically don't have either along the possible routes of travel.
Thank you.

Off to try and narrow that down. Tank refills of fuel (at a station, by the fuel co) are federally regulated. Guess I should search that info.
Thanks again.

another example of how you are a Fountain of knowledge and information! Didn't know that. (I love having Oriah on my team!)

Oriah
10-03-2011, 02:05 PM
another example of how you are a Fountain of knowledge and information! Didn't know that. (I love having Oriah on my team!)

Aww, thanks redfish. :)

Now if only there weren't about 5 bazillion to sift through!! I'm going to try and start with just TN, AL, and GA.

Emeralgem
10-03-2011, 02:07 PM
If he claimed to LE that he was his mother's house, but actually wasn't there may explain why his mother retained a lawyer. Maybe? I could be wrong . . .



Could be but IF he were my son and he claimed he was with me but he really wasn't I wouldn't lawyer up.. I would contact the authorities and tell them he wasn't with me...JMHO.
I'll willingly die for my children but I'm not going to lie or cover for them...JMHO

Emeralgem
10-03-2011, 08:02 PM
IMHO...IMHO.. The fact that more isn't being done to find Gail and find out what really happened to Gail is disgraceful...JMHO

glorias
10-03-2011, 09:00 PM
If he claimed to LE that he was his mother's house, but actually wasn't there may explain why his mother retained a lawyer. Maybe? I could be wrong . . .

That's a good theory. I would love to know why they retained lawyers. MP I could understand if he didn't want to incriminate himself for something unrelated. But MP's lawyers clearly talk to the media (and Jammer Scott) when they want to put info out, so IMHO isn't a case of MP worried LE would find out he was downloading bootlegs off the internet or something innocuous like that.

MP's mom got an attorney too, a guy who had his name removed from a news article after it was published. And the news said TH's lawyer was specifically a defense attorney:

http://timesfreepress.com/news/2011/jun/18/palmgren-consents-property-searches/?print

I know there was some question as to whether it was a defense or divorce attorney, but the Times Free Press says defense.

BeanE
10-04-2011, 10:56 AM
I've done a fair amount of work in my professional life developing standards, processes, and procedures, primarily for various government agencies. It was primarily at the federal level, but I've also done state, county, city level.

Because of this, I know that every government agency has procedures for everything - and I do mean everything lol. I also know that when an agency or department develops their own procedures for something, they have to start with procedures they're required to follow, and procedures they must use as a basis, which usually are based on tried and true methods that work, best practices, etc.

So... with all this in mind, after failing to find anything online for Signal Mountain, Hamilton County, or TN for procedures, I decided to go for the next best thing - what an agency would be likely to use as at least a starting point for their missing person procedures.

I think I found it. I think it's CALEA 41.2.5 and CALEA 41.2.6.

I'm finding lots of agencies that cite it as a reference, and lots of agencies with exactly the same wording.

What I'm not finding - yet! - is the original CALEA Standard that I can be guaranteed hasn't been modified or adapted by an indivual agency.

I'll keep looking.

Meanwhile, if anyone is interested in reading through some of these documents, just Google CALEA 41.2.5 or 41.2.5 missing persons

Here are some examples of the documents you can find:

Phoenix PD:
http://phoenix.gov/police/missin1.html

Peoria AZ PD:
http://www.peoriaaz.gov/uploadedFiles/Peoriaaz/Departments/Police/Administration/4_29.pdf

Boardman Township PD:
http://www.boardmantwp.com/Police/documents/calea%20policies/158%20Missing%20Person.pdf


In the course of my poking around, I also found this article:

When people go missing; Foul play or running away?
Posted Aug 16, 2010 @ 07:00 AM
Last update Aug 17, 2010 @ 10:44 AM
http://www.cantonrep.com/stark/canton/x2092793739/When-people-go-missing-Foul-play-or-running-away

Oriah
10-04-2011, 11:41 AM
I've done a fair amount of work in my professional life developing standards, processes, and procedures, primarily for various government agencies. It was primarily at the federal level, but I've also done state, county, city level.

Because of this, I know that every government agency has procedures for everything - and I do mean everything lol. I also know that when an agency or department develops their own procedures for something, they have to start with procedures they're required to follow, and procedures they must use as a basis, which usually are based on tried and true methods that work, best practices, etc.

So... with all this in mind, after failing to find anything online for Signal Mountain, Hamilton County, or TN for procedures, I decided to go for the next best thing - what an agency would be likely to use as at least a starting point for their missing person procedures.

I think I found it. I think it's CALEA 41.2.5 and CALEA 41.2.6.

I'm finding lots of agencies that cite it as a reference, and lots of agencies with exactly the same wording.

What I'm not finding - yet! - is the original CALEA Standard that I can be guaranteed hasn't been modified or adapted by an indivual agency.

I'll keep looking.

Meanwhile, if anyone is interested in reading through some of these documents, just Google CALEA 41.2.5 or 41.2.5 missing persons

Here are some examples of the documents you can find:

Phoenix PD:
http://phoenix.gov/police/missin1.html

Peoria AZ PD:
http://www.peoriaaz.gov/uploadedFiles/Peoriaaz/Departments/Police/Administration/4_29.pdf

Boardman Township PD:
http://www.boardmantwp.com/Police/documents/calea%20policies/158%20Missing%20Person.pdf


In the course of my poking around, I also found this article:

When people go missing; Foul play or running away?
Posted Aug 16, 2010 @ 07:00 AM
Last update Aug 17, 2010 @ 10:44 AM
http://www.cantonrep.com/stark/canton/x2092793739/When-people-go-missing-Foul-play-or-running-away

Thanks Bean.:)

You know what I hope most people take from the last article you mentioned?

That it is frustrating as all get out trying to triage.

Emeralgem
10-04-2011, 01:33 PM
WHERE THERE IS A WILL THERE IS A WAY.. Hoping LE is dedicated to finding her and finding out what happened to her....Also hoping LE wil find a way to bring the person/s responsible for her disappearance to justice. JMHO

Emeralgem
10-04-2011, 04:31 PM
I realize some don't believe Gail was seen on Big Fork Road between 4:00 and 6:30 pm but I suspect the person CC claims she saw was indeed Gail...I also suspect Gail was being held against her will...LE needs to find the person/s who were with Gail that afternoon...
JMHO. http://wdef.com/video/new_possible_sighting_of_the_missing_signal_mounta in_mother_gail_palmgren/06/2011

Emeralgem
10-04-2011, 04:50 PM
Why would SMPD even listen to anything Matt P said in the first place? They knew Gail could be in danger or they would have never given her the number to a safe house .JMHO

Emeralgem
10-04-2011, 05:00 PM
IMHO.. Matt P's actions show that he knows what happened to Gail.And he knows she isn't coming home. Same applies to TH.. I pray both she and he are on LE's radar..JMHO

McSpy
10-04-2011, 05:04 PM
Why would SMPD even listen to anything Matt P said in the first place? They knew Gail could be in danger or they would have never given her the number to a safe house .JMHO

Good point! She had been calling the police on and off for a few days before her disappearance, because they were fighting and she felt it was getting out of control. Hmmmm

On another note, I wonder if child custody was part of their arguments.

McSpy
10-04-2011, 05:12 PM
Could be but IF he were my son and he claimed he was with me but he really wasn't I wouldn't lawyer up.. I would contact the authorities and tell them he wasn't with me...JMHO.
I'll willingly die for my children but I'm not going to lie or cover for them...JMHO

I'm the same way. If you want to dance, you have to pay the fiddler!
However, some parents don't always see things that way. Also, MP may have talked her into it. Maybe he's paying for the lawyer too. I don't see why she really needs one though. This is what makes me wonder . . . . .

Just some thoughts.

McSpy
10-04-2011, 05:18 PM
Does anyone know if MP's mother was questioned by LE or was it through her lawyer?

Emeralgem
10-04-2011, 05:38 PM
I'm the same way. If you want to dance, you have to pay the fiddler!
However, some parents don't always see things that way. Also, MP may have talked her into it. Maybe he's paying for the lawyer too. I don't see why she really needs one though. This is what makes me wonder . . . . .

Just some thoughts.

Reading and posting here at WS has been an eye opening experience for me..IMHO..Too too many parents both mothers and fathers are lying for and enabling their children and this isn't just in little things.. We're talking about parents covering for their children when in all probabilty they know for certain their children are responsible for the demise of an innocent human being......JMHO

Emeralgem
10-04-2011, 05:54 PM
Good point! She had been calling the police on and off for a few days before her disappearance, because they were fighting and she felt it was getting out of control. Hmmmm

On another note, I wonder if child custody was part of their arguments.

I was never present and on the scene during any of their arguments but I would suspect child custody was discussed..
IMHO..Matt P's EGO wouldn't want to pay any child support to an ex wife or split the wealth.. I'm thinking he may be of the mindset...... What mine is mine and whats hers is mine too...IMHO.. Thats an EGO run amok..However an EGO run amok will be his downfall...JMHO

Emeralgem
10-04-2011, 06:01 PM
Does anyone know if MP's mother was questioned by LE or was it through her lawyer?


Do we know IF John C was even present when the search took place at her residence?

glorias
10-04-2011, 07:15 PM
Do we know IF John C was even present when the search took place at her residence?

No idea about the attorney, but the PI was there because his big red Jeep Rubicon was seen on the newscast parked outside her residence. Maybe the PI was the only person required to be there per the agreement.

cocomod
10-04-2011, 07:31 PM
I have to tell you that I saw a red Jeep parked in a big parking lot late at night on Saturday night. I immediately thought of Gail. It was not the Rubicon version, so I know it wasn't her Jeep; but I thought of Gail. I also doubt that she would be here in Utah, but I still watch out for her. I wish that LE would have taken her case seriously from the beginning. I would feel much better if I knew that they had checked everything out thoroughly in the beginning; but now I am just left wondering if they were influenced by MP to believe Gail ran away without a thorough investigation. JMHO Where are you Gail?

Melodie
10-04-2011, 08:12 PM
Good point! She had been calling the police on and off for a few days before her disappearance, because they were fighting and she felt it was getting out of control. Hmmmm

On another note, I wonder if child custody was part of their arguments.

BBM- Well, of course, this is just my opinion, but I would say yes. When a married couple is in the process of divorcing, two things are often at the center of the battles: Money and the children.

From my own experience, when I was a child, my parents fought constantly. There was plenty of loud arguing and cursing at each other all the time. There was not physical abuse, but lots of angry verbal emotional battling going on. Many of their fights would lead to the inevitable "divorce talk". I remember many angry statements such as, "Well, I'll just take the kids and leave. You'll never see them again!" Always followed by, "You'll never take my kids away from me". Money and other marital assets would always be worked in there, too. Sometimes threats of exposing each others' "flaws" to friends, family, coworkers, etc.

I recall someone suggesting that the reason Gail may have called the police on the day of the incident with the car and what vehicle would be driven by whom to the lake house was because the children were terrified when it resulted in MP exiting the vehicle and walking away. This caused a sort of flashback for me when my brother and I were about 6-7 yrs old and on a day trip with my parents in the car out in the middle of nowhere and they had one of their infamous arguments escalating to the divorce talk and my mother demanded my Dad stop the car on the side of the road and get out. I remember my little brother and I were hysterical. We were out on a country road in the middle of nowhere and in my mind at the time, if my father got out of the car, I would never see him again. I was too young to understand he would have been okay. Of course, my mother pulled away and then turned around and picked him up.

I can completely relate to kids who have to grow up witnessing this kind of behavior and the fear, sadness and guilt it instills. Sometimes you feel like it's your fault when you're a kid. I always tell people, don't do that in front of your kids. You have no idea what it does to them and how long it stays with them. Many of the arguments my parents had are still with me to this day. My parents never did divorce, although they came close many times. I eventually learned it didn't have anything to do with me, it was just their problems. I broke the cycle, too. I never allowed my child to be exposed to any of that.

Sorry for the lengthy answer, but in my experience, I think it is highly likely that the custody issue was part of the arguments. JMHO

hollyblue
10-04-2011, 09:26 PM
I was never present and on the scene during any of their arguments but I would suspect child custody was discussed..
IMHO..Matt P's EGO wouldn't want to pay any child support to an ex wife or split the wealth.. I'm thinking he may be of the mindset...... What mine is mine and whats hers is mine too...IMHO.. Thats an EGO run amok..However an EGO run amok will be his downfall...JMHO
Seems the downfall has already started. No job, shortage of money, having to hire a DEFENSE attorney and trying to sell and rent property. JMO

I keep thinking and wondering about the children and how they are doing and if they are still seeing a counselor?

Emeralgem
10-04-2011, 09:56 PM
Seems the downfall has already started. No job, shortage of money, having to hire a DEFENSE attorney and trying to sell and rent property. JMO

I keep thinking and wondering about the children and how they are doing and if they are still seeing a counselor?

Speaking of selling property, isn't Gail's name on the deed? How is he going to manage to pull that off?
My thoughts and prayers are with the children also.. This has to be a nightmare for them..JMHO

IMHO..They are the true victims here other than Gail..JMHO

Snowbunny
10-04-2011, 11:07 PM
Speaking of selling property, isn't Gail's name on the deed? How is he going to manage to pull that off?
My thoughts and prayers are with the children also.. This has to be a nightmare for them..JMHO

IMHO..They are the true victims here other than Gail..JMHO

Speaking of the deed, when I lived in TN and was going through my divorce, I couldn't begin to sell my house until he signed the deed over to me, so I don't see how he's going to be able to sell the property if her name is on the deed.

McSpy
10-05-2011, 12:18 AM
No idea about the attorney, but the PI was there because his big red Jeep Rubicon was seen on the newscast parked outside her residence. Maybe the PI was the only person required to be there per the agreement.

He has a big red Jeep Rubicon too?

Was he Gail's PI?

McSpy
10-05-2011, 12:21 AM
Speaking of selling property, isn't Gail's name on the deed? How is he going to manage to pull that off?
My thoughts and prayers are with the children also.. This has to be a nightmare for them..JMHO

IMHO..They are the true victims here other than Gail..JMHO

Could they put half of the sale in an account for her?

I think he may end up foreclosing, because of that issue. Unless, he gets a job soon.

McSpy
10-05-2011, 12:34 AM
BBM- Well, of course, this is just my opinion, but I would say yes. When a married couple is in the process of divorcing, two things are often at the center of the battles: Money and the children.

From my own experience, when I was a child, my parents fought constantly. There was plenty of loud arguing and cursing at each other all the time. There was not physical abuse, but lots of angry verbal emotional battling going on. Many of their fights would lead to the inevitable "divorce talk". I remember many angry statements such as, "Well, I'll just take the kids and leave. You'll never see them again!" Always followed by, "You'll never take my kids away from me". Money and other marital assets would always be worked in there, too. Sometimes threats of exposing each others' "flaws" to friends, family, coworkers, etc.

I recall someone suggesting that the reason Gail may have called the police
on the day of the incident with the car and what vehicle would be driven by whom to the lake house was because the children were terrified when it resulted in MP exiting the vehicle and walking away. This caused a sort of flashback for me when my brother and I were about 6-7 yrs old and on a day trip with my parents in the car out in the middle of nowhere and they had one of their infamous arguments escalating to the divorce talk and my mother demanded my Dad stop the car on the side of the road and get out. I remember my little brother and I were hysterical. We were out on a country road in the middle of nowhere and in my mind at the time, if my father got out of the car, I would never see him again. I was too young to understand he would have been okay. Of course, my mother pulled away and then turned around and picked him up.

I can completely relate to kids who have to grow up witnessing this kind of behavior and the fear, sadness and guilt it instills. Sometimes you feel like it's your fault when you're a kid. I always tell people, don't do that in front of your kids. You have no idea what it does to them and how long it stays with them. Many of the arguments my parents had are still with me to this day.
My parents never did divorce, although they came close many times. I eventually learned it didn't have anything to do with me, it was just their problems. I broke the cycle, too. I never allowed my child to be exposed to any of that.

Sorry for the lengthy answer, but in my experience, I think it is highly likely that the custody issue was part of the arguments. JMHO

Thanks for sharing your experience. I had a similar situation when I was a kid, but my father wasn't interested in custody at all, so the subject never came up. The arguments occurred often and there was a separation, but they never went through with the divorce as well.

Since MP filed for custody right after Gail disappeared, IMO, there were arguments over custody. It seems to fit.

JMO

glorias
10-05-2011, 03:05 AM
He has a big red Jeep Rubicon too?

Was he Gail's PI?

It was apparently Mike M., MP's investigator. Here's a screen shot of the video:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #7


Here's someone who says it was reported elsewhere as belonging to MP's private investigator:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #7

glorias
10-05-2011, 03:07 AM
Earlier I was trying to find out where we got the info that MP was out running errands, well when looking for the stuff on that Jeep I found it. fbx heard the info from someone else:


I didn't ask how the person knew this, but it's likely that she would: Gail's husband was running an errand with his mother when she came home and she apparently called to let him know the kids were home, and she was going out and leaving them.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #1

Emeralgem
10-05-2011, 08:26 AM
Earlier I was trying to find out where we got the info that MP was out running errands, well when looking for the stuff on that Jeep I found it. fbx heard the info from someone else:



Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #1 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6484060&postcount=416)

So did Gail talk to MP and tell him the children were at the residence or did she call SMPD to tell them?

Also, wonder IF LE actually followed up on the claims Gail made before she disappeared..IF not, WHY not... JMHO


fbx, do you know?

Emeralgem
10-05-2011, 08:31 AM
He has a big red Jeep Rubicon too?

Was he Gail's PI?

Not that I am aware of... To my knowledge Gail's PI's name has never been released...We don't even know IF LE has ever spoken with the PI.. I would hope they have though...JMHO

ETA His jeep is not the same color red as Gail's jeep

confused
10-05-2011, 10:40 AM
So did Gail talk to MP and tell him the children were at the residence or did she call SMPD to tell them?

Also, wonder IF LE actually followed up on the claims Gail made before she disappeared..IF not, WHY not... JMHO


fbx, do you know?

What claims did Gail make? I don't recall her making claims to LE.

Emeralgem
10-05-2011, 11:08 AM
MY #135 was in regards to wanting to know IF LE actually followed up on the claims Gail made before she disappeared.. This information was posted by fbx.



Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #1

confused
10-05-2011, 12:33 PM
MY #135 was in regards to wanting to know IF LE actually followed up on the claims Gail made before she disappeared.. This information was posted by fbx.



Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #1 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6484060&postcount=416)

Thanks for the link. I thought you meant claims she made directly to LE, but this is referring to general things she had said to friends/neighbors, etc.

F. Lee
10-05-2011, 03:53 PM
Thanks for the link. I thought you meant claims she made directly to LE, but this is referring to general things she had said to friends/neighbors, etc.


I don't think it matters if Gail said something to a friend, family member, or LE -- if she was scared and thought something was going to happen to her, wouldn't LE want to know everything out there so they could make a decision about investigating or not?

Knowing how long it took before searching the residences tells us that they don't believe there was foul play...LE keeps saying there are no signs of foul play. How do they know that if they haven't fully investigated? Common sense would suggest they would have to investigate to know whether or not to place manpower and money on the case. What did the interviews with her husband, children, neighbors, husband's mistress, siblings, former co-workers -- what did they tell LE that they believe Gail just left home? Must have been very convincing. I'd be interested to read what they said.

Who made the initial decision that there was no foul play? Which agency, which detective? Does anyone know?

I'd like to see evidence that Gail DID leave. Show me that and I'll stop thinking that she didn't choose to leave.

Has anyone asked Senator Corker or Senator Alexander if they're aware of this case? Or does Governor Haslam know the details of this case? Or Congressman Fleischer? What does it take to get an answer as to why anyone thinks she just left? The Sheriff said sometimes people leave for years and then just come home -- really? How many and who are they? And if LE believes that to be true, why did they say they'd take another look when the foliage is off the trees. What do they expect to find.

People seldom just fall off the face of the earth. Where is she? Maybe no one knows where she is. Maybe her husband or family has no idea where she is.

Isn't that all the more reason to look for her?

Praying for Gail and hoping to find her safe.

McSpy
10-05-2011, 04:15 PM
It was apparently Mike M., MP's investigator. Here's a screen shot of the video:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #7 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6865031&postcount=34)


Here's someone who says it was reported elsewhere as belonging to MP's private investigator:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - TN TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April
2011 - #7 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6869090&postcount=90)

Wow! Quite the coincidence! It has different wheels and no spare tire cover, but wouldn't it be weird if that was Gail's Jeep with changes to make it look like it was a separate vehicle. My imagination at work here! Lol

McSpy
10-05-2011, 04:26 PM
I don't think it matters if Gail said something to a friend, family member, or LE -- if she was scared and thought something was going to happen to her, wouldn't LE want to know everything out there so they could make a decision about investigating or not?

Knowing how long it took before searching the residences tells us that they don't believe there was foul play...LE keeps saying there are no signs of foul play. How do they know that if they haven't fully investigated? Common sense would suggest they would have to investigate to know whether or not to place manpower and money on the case. What did the interviews with her husband, children, neighbors, husband's mistress, siblings, former co-workers -- what did they tell LE that they believe Gail just left home? Must have been
very convincing. I'd be interested to read what they said.

Who made the initial decision that there was no foul play? Which agency, which detective? Does anyone know?

I'd like to see evidence that Gail DID leave. Show me that and I'll stop
thinking that she didn't choose to leave.

Has anyone asked Senator Corker or Senator Alexander if they're aware of this case? Or does Governor Haslam know the details of this case? Or Congressman Fleischer? What does it take
to get an answer as to why anyone thinks she just left? The Sheriff said sometimes people leave for years and then just come home -- really? How many and who are they? And if LE believes that to be true, why did they say they'd take another look when the foliage is off the trees. What do they expect to find.

People seldom just fall off the face of the earth. Where is she? Maybe no one knows where she is. Maybe her husband or family has no idea where she is.

Isn't that all the more reason to look for her?
Praying for Gail and hoping to find her safe.

I'd like to add that LE usually says there is no evidence of foul play. They usually don't say there is no foul play, when the case is not solved. There is a big distinction.

Emeralgem
10-05-2011, 04:29 PM
I don't think it matters if Gail said something to a friend, family member, or LE -- if she was scared and thought something was going to happen to her, wouldn't LE want to know everything out there so they could make a decision about investigating or not?

Knowing how long it took before searching the residences tells us that they don't believe there was foul play...LE keeps saying there are no signs of foul play. How do they know that if they haven't fully investigated? Common sense would suggest they would have to investigate to know whether or not to place manpower and money on the case. What did the interviews with her husband, children, neighbors, husband's mistress, siblings, former co-workers -- what did they tell LE that they believe Gail just left home? Must have been very convincing. I'd be interested to read what they said.

Who made the initial decision that there was no foul play? Which agency, which detective? Does anyone know?

I'd like to see evidence that Gail DID leave. Show me that and I'll stop thinking that she didn't choose to leave.

Has anyone asked Senator Corker or Senator Alexander if they're aware of this case? Or does Governor Haslam know the details of this case? Or Congressman Fleischer? What does it take to get an answer as to why anyone thinks she just left? The Sheriff said sometimes people leave for years and then just come home -- really? How many and who are they? And if LE believes that to be true, why did they say they'd take another look when the foliage is off the trees. What do they expect to find.

People seldom just fall off the face of the earth. Where is she? Maybe no one knows where she is. Maybe her husband or family has no idea where she is.

Isn't that all the more reason to look for her?

Praying for Gail and hoping to find her safe.


:goodpost::gthanks::great:

hollyblue
10-05-2011, 05:38 PM
Speaking of selling property, isn't Gail's name on the deed? How is he going to manage to pull that off?
My thoughts and prayers are with the children also.. This has to be a nightmare for them..JMHO

IMHO..They are the true victims here other than Gail..JMHO

I don't know Em, it seems there would be a problem with the sale IF Gail returned--- for the buyers; seems they would lose any investment they had. The only thing I can think of is the realtor is showing it with the hope of a rental or some kind of lease to buy with stipulations??? Unless GP did sign off on her interest in the property...which I highly doubt. Does anyone know if she did speak to an attorney...just for advice or preparations besides AD?

hollyblue
10-05-2011, 05:49 PM
Thanks for sharing your experience. I had a similar situation when I was a kid, but my father wasn't interested in custody at all, so the subject never came up. The arguments occurred often and there was a separation, but they never went through with the divorce as well.

Since MP filed for custody right after Gail disappeared, IMO, there were arguments over custody. It seems to fit.

JMO

I'd really like to hear the thoughts on why those who think GP just decided to leave on her own could leave the kids with no looking back? I do have my thoughts, but, people who know her say she wouldn't have done it. jmo

hollyblue
10-05-2011, 07:06 PM
<modsnip>the location for the Cue Center's rally on Oct 22 is Pruetts Market parking lot. If I find the info on Cue's website, I'll provide a link, but I thought the information should be available to all who care about GP and want to support this effort. imo

confused
10-05-2011, 08:41 PM
Wow! Quite the coincidence! It has different wheels and no spare tire cover, but wouldn't it be weird if that was Gail's Jeep with changes to make it look like it was a separate vehicle. My imagination at work here! Lol

It's not the same color.

Emeralgem
10-06-2011, 08:32 AM
IIRC It took awhile for LE to get Evelyn Mosher, the Signal Mtn. woman who hired someone to kill her husband..
I have to trust justice will be served to the person/s responsible for Gail's disappearance..JMHO

hollyblue
10-06-2011, 09:21 AM
Hmmmm, interesting . I know this is CPD, but don't we have the HCSD major crimes detectives on GP's investigation now? No foul play?

Missing Persons Division


The Youth & Family Investigations unit is commanded by Lieutenant Mike Mathis.

If circumstances indicate that foul play may be involved, a major crimes investigator may be assigned to the case.

http://www.chattanooga.gov/police_department/74_citymissingpersons.htm (http://www.chattanooga.gov/police_department/74_citymissingpersons.htm)

hollyblue
10-06-2011, 09:27 AM
This festival is taking place now and hopefully there will be people out and about in SM and areas that need a looksee. Too bad posters can't be passed out and a story of GP's case on some local media at this time.

RiverRocks Festival Schedule

http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_210321.asp

Annie_61
10-06-2011, 09:31 AM
I was following this one too, and did you see? They found him! Perfectly safe, in Canada. Apparently he just got in his big van and drove away. So glad for his family that he was located. Just thought you would want to know, if you didn't.

Just goes to show when the LE have full cooperation of family & friends how much easier and quicker it is to find someone who is missing, even if they have left of their own free will but. Good to see a happy ending :)
We can only hope that Gail’s case have the same happy ending.
But sadly after 5 months it doesn’t seem likely. Just my gut feeling of course.

Sorry for having to go back on old post but due to time differences posting is a rare thing for me :(

Annie_61
10-06-2011, 09:42 AM
I've done a fair amount of work in my professional life developing standards, processes, and procedures, primarily for various government agencies. It was primarily at the federal level, but I've also done state, county, city level.

Because of this, I know that every government agency has procedures for everything - and I do mean everything lol. I also know that when an agency or department develops their own procedures for something, they have to start with procedures they're required to follow, and procedures they must use as a basis, which usually are based on tried and true methods that work, best practices, etc.

So... with all this in mind, after failing to find anything online for Signal Mountain, Hamilton County, or TN for procedures, I decided to go for the next best thing - what an agency would be likely to use as at least a starting point for their missing person procedures.

I think I found it. I think it's CALEA 41.2.5 and CALEA 41.2.6.

I'm finding lots of agencies that cite it as a reference, and lots of agencies with exactly the same wording.

What I'm not finding - yet! - is the original CALEA Standard that I can be guaranteed hasn't been modified or adapted by an indivual agency.

I'll keep looking.

Meanwhile, if anyone is interested in reading through some of these documents, just Google CALEA 41.2.5 or 41.2.5 missing persons

Here are some examples of the documents you can find:

Phoenix PD:
http://phoenix.gov/police/missin1.html

Peoria AZ PD:
http://www.peoriaaz.gov/uploadedFiles/Peoriaaz/Departments/Police/Administration/4_29.pdf

Boardman Township PD:
http://www.boardmantwp.com/Police/documents/calea%20policies/158%20Missing%20Person.pdf


In the course of my poking around, I also found this article:

When people go missing; Foul play or running away?
Posted Aug 16, 2010 @ 07:00 AM
Last update Aug 17, 2010 @ 10:44 AM
http://www.cantonrep.com/stark/canton/x2092793739/When-people-go-missing-Foul-play-or-running-away

One thing that stands out from the links is that lack of funds and resources plays a huge part in why so many missing person cases can’t be investigated deeper. It really is making it so easy for criminals to dispose of people and get away with it, all you need to do is make sure there is no sign of foul play and you are pretty much home free. Sometimes it seems the laws that are meant to be there to protect everyday citizens are becoming more about protecting criminals. The LE really do have their hands tied a lot of times when it comes to making a call on how much time they can spend on a case, gut instinct no longer can play as big a part in solving crime these days.

As someone who lives a pretty dull ordinary life I can’t understand why anyone who has a missing family member would object to talking to LE, having the LE enter and search my place. Even though I know it is my right to refuse to talk etc. my personal feeling is, if I have nothing to hide why stop the LE from doing their job. It would give me peace of mind to be able to walk around with my head held high knowing I had done all I could to help the LE and prevent finger pointing. Also would help the LE from wasting valuable resources trying to work out if I was up to no good. Just some thoughts after reading all those links.

Again sorry for the late reply to a post...I am about to turn into a pumkin so will say good night. :)

BeanE
10-06-2011, 10:12 AM
Hmmmm, interesting . I know this is CPD, but don't we have the HCSD major crimes detectives on GP's investigation now? No foul play?

Missing Persons Division


The Youth & Family Investigations unit is commanded by Lieutenant Mike Mathis.

If circumstances indicate that foul play may be involved, a major crimes investigator may be assigned to the case.

http://www.chattanooga.gov/police_department/74_citymissingpersons.htm (http://www.chattanooga.gov/police_department/74_citymissingpersons.htm)

That's the Chattanooga Police Department (CPD). They don't handle Gail's case. Gail's case is handled by the Hamilton County Sheriff's Office (HCSO).

If you go to the HCSO website (http://www.hcsheriff.gov) and look under the Site Map link, or the grey Investigations tab in the line of clickable tabs across the page under the page heading, you see what HCSO's Investigations division handles:

Investigations

Internal Affairs
Domestic Violence
Fugitive
Narcotics
Sex Offender Registry
Property Crimes
Property & Evidence
Special Services
S.U.R.T.

And one more - Personal Crimes. If you go to the Personal Crimes page, you see that Personal Crimes handles:

Personal Crimes

Child Abuse
Missing Persons
Suspicious Deaths, Homicide and Violent Crime

http://www.hcsheriff.gov/cid/personal_crimes.asp

HCSO has stated a multitude of times that Gail's case is a Missing Person case, and that there is no evidence of foul play.

HCSO's Sheriff Hammond additionally stated that "There's nothing at this point to indicate that anything nefarious has occurred".
http://www.wrcbtv.com/story/15144246/fbi-now-looking-at-gail-palmgren-disappearance

Based on all the above, it's impossible for me, personally, to see how a different agency is structured, and its procedures, into an indication that HCSO secretively has classified Gail's case as a major crime, and is lying to the public.

Upholding the public trust by being honest is important in law enforcement. I see in many cases where people express that they think LE is being dishonest with the public, but personally, it seems to me that it's a very rare thing. LE seems to me to refrain from commenting at all when information needs to be kept confidential, and then later, either they release the information to the press, or it comes out at trial.

99% of the time, I follow LE's lead, because they have training, knowledge, experience, and information that I don't. I'm following LE's lead in Gail's case, and LE is telling me (the public) there is not only no physical evidence of foul play (seems to me to be the most common statement of this sort made), and no evidence period (indicates no circumstantial to me) of foul play, but have taken it all the way to telling me (the public) there is nothing at all to indicate that anything at all nefarious happened here.

As always, I ask no one to agree with me, and am not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm simply expressing my thoughts, opinions, and how I perceive what I have learned about this case.

If any additional information comes out, or if LE develops or receives new leads and releases them, I can certainly perceive this case differently.

BeanE
10-06-2011, 10:20 AM
Just goes to show when the LE have full cooperation of family & friends how much easier and quicker it is to find someone who is missing, even if they have left of their own free will but. Good to see a happy ending :)
We can only hope that Gail’s case have the same happy ending.
But sadly after 5 months it doesn’t seem likely. Just my gut feeling of course.

Sorry for having to go back on old post but due to time differences posting is a rare thing for me :(

Just a note on Patrick Borally's case - it is a happy ending because he is alive, I agree, however, sadly, Pat has been reported in MSM per a police report to have made more than one suicide attempt during the time he was missing. He was found in a car with a hose hooked up to pump the carbon monoxide (I think that's what it is?) into the car, and a suicide note.

BeanE
10-06-2011, 10:33 AM
One thing that stands out from the links is that lack of funds and resources plays a huge part in why so many missing person cases can’t be investigated deeper.

Exactly - it all comes down to money, because we pay for the services of LE with our tax dollars. If we want more work done on missing person cases, we need to pay more taxes so that LE can hire more people to do the work.

Meantime, LE has to prioritize their case loads with the number of people they have, and the cost for additional resources to work on missing person cases falls to their families, for example, in privately engaging PIs, which is very expensive.

Families can also engage search organizations at no cost to them, but there is still a cost - the search organizations have to get funding somewhere for equipment, training, travel, housing during searches. And the searchers have to put out their own money for their own equipment, dogs, care of dogs, special clothing, shoes, boots, etc.

I don't know what the answer is. We can't, as individuals, make everybody pay more taxes for LE to hire more people. We can lobby for it in our own towns, but it will take many, many years I think.

We can donate to search organizations, and to the foundations that families of the missing set up to help fund the search for their loved ones.

And of course, we can all keep posting the flyers for missing persons, online, in our towns, and in towns we travel to, every chance we get, and encourage others to do the same.

The situation leaves me feeling helpless to help very much, and then I always think how much more helpless the family members must feel. Few of them have the money to pour into large scale search efforts and longterm PI services, or even any PI services at all.

It's very sad.

confused
10-06-2011, 10:35 AM
That's the Chattanooga Police Department (CPD). They don't handle Gail's case. Gail's case is handled by the Hamilton County Sheriff's Office (HCSO).

If you go to the HCSO website (http://www.hcsheriff.gov) and look under the Site Map link, or the grey Investigations tab in the line of clickable tabs across the page under the page heading, you see what HCSO's Investigations division handles:

Investigations

Internal Affairs
Domestic Violence
Fugitive
Narcotics
Sex Offender Registry
Property Crimes
Property & Evidence
Special Services
S.U.R.T.

And one more - Personal Crimes. If you go to the Personal Crimes page, you see that Personal Crimes handles:

Personal Crimes

Child Abuse
Missing Persons
Suspicious Deaths, Homicide and Violent Crime

http://www.hcsheriff.gov/cid/personal_crimes.asp

HCSO has stated a multitude of times that Gail's case is a Missing Person case, and that there is no evidence of foul play.

HCSO's Sheriff Hammond additionally stated that "There's nothing at this point to indicate that anything nefarious has occurred".


Based on all the above, it's impossible for me, personally, to see how a different agency is structured, and its procedures, into an indication that HCSO secretively has classified Gail's case as a major crime, and is lying to the public.

Upholding the public trust by being honest is important in law enforcement. I see in many cases where people express that they think LE is being dishonest with the public, but personally, it seems to me that it's a very rare thing. LE seems to me to refrain from commenting at all when information needs to be kept confidential, and then later, either they release the information to the press, or it comes out at trial.

99% of the time, I follow LE's lead, because they have training, knowledge, experience, and information that I don't. I'm following LE's lead in Gail's case, and LE is telling me (the public) there is not only no physical evidence of foul play (seems to me to be the most common statement of this sort made), and no evidence period (indicates no circumstantial to me) of foul play, but have taken it all the way to telling me (the public) there is nothing at all to indicate that anything at all nefarious happened here.

As always, I ask no one to agree with me, and am not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm simply expressing my thoughts, opinions, and how I perceive what I have learned about this case.

If any additional information comes out, or if LE develops or receives new leads and releases them, I can certainly perceive this case differently.

Thank you for that post! Excellent information and well stated. I have read so much second guessing, questioning and outright blaming LE in this case. Criticizing LE for not doing this or that, and even trying to claim corruption in the form of the 'good ole boy' idea. It's been eye opening to see that so many form an opinion based on rumors and things they see elsewhere, and are ready to convict someone for a serious crime based on that-and talk badly about LE because they don't agree. I am sure most would feel differently if they were the one being accused. I am glad that LE is being quiet and carefully doing their investigation. Hopefully it will result in Gail and the truth being found.

hollyblue
10-06-2011, 11:30 AM
I stated it was an officer of a different LE agency, but an investigation is usually handled in the same manner.

I think it's common knowledge that LE "fibs" when investigating a case and the public could care less when they do---IF the truth eventually comes out and the case is solved. JMO LE cares about solving the case and not whether or not they are appeasing public opinion...at least I hope not.

Oriah
10-06-2011, 12:09 PM
Exactly - it all comes down to money, because we pay for the services of LE with our tax dollars. If we want more work done on missing person cases, we need to pay more taxes so that LE can hire more people to do the work.

Meantime, LE has to prioritize their case loads with the number of people they have, and the cost for additional resources to work on missing person cases falls to their families, for example, in privately engaging PIs, which is very expensive.

Families can also engage search organizations at no cost to them, but there is still a cost - the search organizations have to get funding somewhere for equipment, training, travel, housing during searches. And the searchers have to put out their own money for their own equipment, dogs, care of dogs, special clothing, shoes, boots, etc.

I don't know what the answer is. We can't, as individuals, make everybody pay more taxes for LE to hire more people. We can lobby for it in our own towns, but it will take many, many years I think.

We can donate to search organizations, and to the foundations that families of the missing set up to help fund the search for their loved ones.

And of course, we can all keep posting the flyers for missing persons, online, in our towns, and in towns we travel to, every chance we get, and encourage others to do the same.

The situation leaves me feeling helpless to help very much, and then I always think how much more helpless the family members must feel. Few of them have the money to pour into large scale search efforts and longterm PI services, or even any PI services at all.

It's very sad.

Thank you for this very astute post, BeanE.

It kind of randomly made me think of a time years ago when we were approached by a (very well intentioned) name brand manufacturer of USAR helmets. Much reduced cost- as long as any search that appeared in the media contained a shot of their label.

Had to turn that one down. Way to help victims? Not so much. Way to help SAR? Not so much. :(

But the cost ratio analysis forces many groups- into situations they do not want to be in... but have to be in. :(

Leaves me feel helpless too.

Emeralgem
10-06-2011, 01:02 PM
IMHO..Considering the search of the residence on Ridgerock didn't even take place until almost two months after Gail was reported missing, I really don't know how Hammond can be certain no foul play is involved....
Guess he is entitled to state whatever he chooses since he is the sheriff, but that doesn't mean the public agrees with his assumptions concerning Gail's case..JMHO..

http://www.wdef.com/news/hamilton_co_investigators_search_gail_palmgrens_ho use/06/2011

BeanE
10-06-2011, 01:20 PM
IMHO..Considering the search of the residence on Ridgerock didn't even take place until almost two months after Gail was reported missing, I really don't know how Hammond can be certain no foul play is involved....
Guess he is entitled to state whatever he chooses since he is the sheriff, but that doesn't mean the public agrees with his assumptions concerning Gail's case..JMHO..

http://www.wdef.com/news/hamilton_co_investigators_search_gail_palmgrens_ho use/06/2011

Personally, I haven't seen Hammond say he's certain. I've seen him (and LE e.g. Atkinson) say they haven't found any evidence and they haven't found any indications.

To me, that's different than saying "I'm certain", and to me, it's different from making assumptions - they're saying they haven't found anything.

My understanding, based on Gail's case still being marked Active, is that they will continue to investigate, and as I understand all these cases work, if and when they do find anything to indicate foul play, then they'll go in that direction.

If anyone in the public has evidence or sees indications of foul play, then I would encourage them to document it clearly, and send it to the tip email address:

Hamilton County Sheriff’s Office
423-209-8940
Sheriff’s dispatcher 423-622-0022
investigations@hcsheriff.gov

http://www.hcsheriff.gov/

Emeralgem
10-06-2011, 04:17 PM
Personally, I haven't seen Hammond say he's certain. I've seen him (and LE e.g. Atkinson) say they haven't found any evidence and they haven't found any indications.

To me, that's different than saying "I'm certain", and to me, it's different from making assumptions - they're saying they haven't found anything.

My understanding, based on Gail's case still being marked Active, is that they will continue to investigate, and as I understand all these cases work, if and when they do find anything to indicate foul play, then they'll go in that direction.

If anyone in the public has evidence or sees indications of foul play, then I would encourage them to document it clearly, and send it to the tip email address:

Hamilton County Sheriff’s Office
423-209-8940
Sheriff’s dispatcher 423-622-0022
investigations@hcsheriff.gov

http://www.hcsheriff.gov/

I haven't heard the sheriff state he is certain either..I'm thinking my post may have been geared toward your comments about following LE's lead in Gail's case.

You stated...
LE is telling me (the public) there is not only no physical evidence of foul play (seems to me to be the most common statement of this sort made), and no evidence period (indicates no circumstantial to me) of foul play, but have taken it all the way to telling me (the public) there is nothing at all to indicate that anything at all nefarious happened here.


As I see it, and I realize I could very well be wrong, you are thinking the Sheriff is stating he is certain nothing nefarious has occurred and you are taking LE's words as "Gospel" since they have stated there is no evidence of foul play...

Please know, IF I am wrong in assuming this is what you meant, I do apologize..
Hope I have worded that correctly.. Ragweed in this area is responsible for giving me a terrible headache..It's hard to think...JMHO..

Emeralgem
10-06-2011, 04:31 PM
Just wondering..
IF Missing Persons investigations at HCSO are handled by the Personal Crimes Unit then why is the Criminal Investigations Unit handling Gail's investigation?

Why has LE stated that MAJOR CRIMES would be looking into Gail's disappearance? Does a Missing Person fall into MAJOR CRIMES category?


The Hamilton County Sheriff’s Office Criminal Investigations Division is requesting for anyone who may have information pertaining to this missing person investigation are urged to call 423-209-8940, Sheriff’s dispatcher 423-622-0022 or submit a tip to investigations@hcsheriff.gov


http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_202911.asp

BeanE
10-06-2011, 05:51 PM
I haven't heard the sheriff state he is certain either..I'm thinking my post may have been geared toward your comments about following LE's lead in Gail's case.

You stated...
LE is telling me (the public) there is not only no physical evidence of foul play (seems to me to be the most common statement of this sort made), and no evidence period (indicates no circumstantial to me) of foul play, but have taken it all the way to telling me (the public) there is nothing at all to indicate that anything at all nefarious happened here.


As I see it, and I realize I could very well be wrong, you are thinking the Sheriff is stating he is certain nothing nefarious has occurred and you are taking LE's words as "Gospel" since they have stated there is no evidence of foul play...

Please know, IF I am wrong in assuming this is what you meant, I do apologize..
Hope I have worded that correctly.. Ragweed in this area is responsible for giving me a terrible headache..It's hard to think...JMHO..

Thank you for explaining that to me, emeralgem, and no, I don't think, and have never thought, that the Sheriff is stating he is certain nothing nefarious has occurred.

IIRC, I've stated several times in this forum, in several different ways, in an attempt to be clear to as many people as possible, that I think just as I stated above - that LE develops a theory (what they *think* happened - *not* what they *know* or are *certain* happened - just what they *think*), and continue to investigate, and if, along the way, they do find evidence or indications that a different theory would be more appropriate, then they switch gears.

I take LE's words as "Gospel" only that, so far, they have neither found nor determined any evidence or indications of foul play.

I realize that at any time they, of course, could find evidence or indications of foul play, and that is the primary reason why I have repeatedly said that, if more information becomes available, I can change my mind about what I *think* - not *know* or am *certain* of - happened here.

It is this same *lack* of any way to be certain that leads me to continue to pursue theories related to foul play, most notably, murder for hire, which I've talked about more than once in this forum.

It is the same for me in all of these cases. No matter what I *think* is *most likely* to have happened to the person, I continue to explore - and to act on - other theories, because I feel very strongly that that is the right thing for me to do for these missing people.

BeanE
10-06-2011, 05:56 PM
Just wondering..
IF Missing Persons investigations at HCSO are handled by the Personal Crimes Unit then why is the Criminal Investigations Unit handling Gail's investigation?

Why has LE stated that MAJOR CRIMES would be looking into Gail's disappearance? Does a Missing Person fall into MAJOR CRIMES category?


The Hamilton County Sheriff’s Office Criminal Investigations Division is requesting for anyone who may have information pertaining to this missing person investigation are urged to call 423-209-8940, Sheriff’s dispatcher 423-622-0022 or submit a tip to investigations@hcsheriff.gov


http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_202911.asp

If you look at the HCSO website, at the places I posted above, it appears, as I was trying to point out, that Personal Crimes is one of the areas that falls under their Criminal Investigations Division.

I don't recall ever seeing LE state that Major Crimes would be looking into Gail's case. I don't see anything on their site that indicates they have a Major Crimes unit.

redfish
10-06-2011, 05:57 PM
Just wondering..
IF Missing Persons investigations at HCSO are handled by the Personal Crimes Unit then why is the Criminal Investigations Unit handling Gail's investigation?

Why has LE stated that MAJOR CRIMES would be looking into Gail's disappearance? Does a Missing Person fall into MAJOR CRIMES category?


The Hamilton County Sheriff’s Office Criminal Investigations Division is requesting for anyone who may have information pertaining to this missing person investigation are urged to call 423-209-8940, Sheriff’s dispatcher 423-622-0022 or submit a tip to investigations@hcsheriff.gov


http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_202911.asp

That does seem like a fair question. When I saw this the first time it did send an alarm off for me. After I thought about it (for days on end) I came to adopt a possible explaination. I know that this community has limited manpower. Like many LE organizations all over their resource officers wear many hats. My son is in LE in a much larger organization and is a homicide detective. But, he also often has active cases of robbery and sexual assault and child endangerment on his plate at the same time. Also missing persons. When there is a homicide he is only one of 4 investigators. All other "major crimes" require their investigation skills as well. Lots of hats. LOOOOTs of time in court - never enough time to go around. This is how I perceive this statement in the paper.... one unit that handles all major crime, not officers who handle "petty crime". JIMO

glorias
10-06-2011, 06:25 PM
What has become completely overwhelming to me since I started following the case is the sheer number of women who disappear, whose husband state the women just ran off because of marital strife. So many people seem to think it's very common for a woman to disappear, leave behind family and children and friends, abandon money and valuables and sentimental items, get a new name and new social security number and hide for the rest of their days.

In my world, it's common to get a divorce, not to disappear without a trace. As I said, that's my world, which apparently is not the real world if this case is any indication.

Then LE doesn't do any timely searches, doesn't interview the people closest to Gail, doesn't release even basic information like what Gail was wearing or what direction she was traveling so people could be on the lookout for her, then LE proclaims to the media that they have no evidence of anything. Of course they don't have any evidence of anything. Who would under those circumstances?

believe09
10-06-2011, 06:44 PM
NCIC MP statistics for 2010:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ncic/ncic-missing-person-and-unidentified-person-statistics-for-2010

692,944 people were entered in NCIC as missing in 2010. 62K were entered as missing in April. 355,243 total for the year were females who went missing.

Statistically speaking, it is far more likely that a missing person is either a runaway juvenile or voluntarily missing.

Look at those numbers compared to the number of detectives out there.

Resources are finite for these cases-Gail is blessed because not only is the media interested, HCSO has far larger resources to devote to her case than does SMPD.

Pearl*
10-06-2011, 06:59 PM
That does seem like a fair question. When I saw this the first time it did send an alarm off for me. After I thought about it (for days on end) I came to adopt a possible explaination. I know that this community has limited manpower. Like many LE organizations all over their resource officers wear many hats. My son is in LE in a much larger organization and is a homicide detective. But, he also often has active cases of robbery and sexual assault and child endangerment on his plate at the same time. Also missing persons. When there is a homicide he is only one of 4 investigators. All other "major crimes" require their investigation skills as well. Lots of hats. LOOOOTs of time in court - never enough time to go around. This is how I perceive this statement in the paper.... one unit that handles all major crime, not officers who handle "petty crime". JIMO

Excellent point. I re-read the article after reading your post, and I noticed it says Major Crimes DETECTIVES are working on the case. It never says the Major Crimes Unit is handling it. I also notice in looking over the HCSO website, that the same (423) 209-8940 is listed as the contact number for several of the units. Also... the article linked is 4 months old. Do we really know what specific "unit" is handling it at this point? And did the unit in charge change over time?

(This is the article referenced: http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_202911.asp)

Melodie
10-06-2011, 07:14 PM
I don't necessarily believe everything LE says to the public. I'm not saying they are lying, because they do not have to reveal everything to us. I think when they say, "We don't have any evidence that a crime was committed", what they may possibly mean is, "We don't have enough evidence that a crime was committed to prove it, make an arrest or name a suspect or POI". I am not convinced they have no evidence, just based on what has already been revealed. The Sheriff said they were planning an aerial search. That says a lot to me.

BeanE
10-06-2011, 07:18 PM
NCIC MP statistics for 2010:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ncic/ncic-missing-person-and-unidentified-person-statistics-for-2010

692,944 people were entered in NCIC as missing in 2010. 62K were entered as missing in April. 355,243 total for the year were females who went missing.

Statistically speaking, it is far more likely that a missing person is either a runaway juvenile or voluntarily missing.

Look at those numbers compared to the number of detectives out there.

Resources are finite for these cases-Gail is blessed because not only is the media interested, HCSO has far larger resources to devote to her case than does SMPD.

For just adult females over 21 last year, there were 52,111. And those, of course, are just the ones reported, and who make it into the NCIC system.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ncic/ncic-missing-person-and-unidentified-person-statistics-for-2010

Pearl*
10-06-2011, 07:18 PM
I don't see anything on their site that indicates they have a Major Crimes unit.

Good point. I can't find it either.

Pearl*
10-06-2011, 07:24 PM
I don't necessarily believe everything LE says to the public. I'm not saying they are lying, because they do not have to reveal everything to us. I think when they say, "We don't have any evidence that a crime was committed", what they may possibly mean is, "We don't have enough evidence that a crime was committed to prove it, make an arrest or name a suspect or POI". I am not convinced they have no evidence, just based on what has already been revealed. The Sheriff said they were planning an aerial search. That says a lot to me.

[bbm]

I'm having trouble drawing any particular conclusion from this. It seems to me that all statements are consistently noncommital. I think they are looking at all options. I sure hope they are. I think they owe her that.

Melodie
10-06-2011, 08:01 PM
[bbm]

I'm having trouble drawing any particular conclusion from this. It seems to me that all statements are consistently noncommital. I think they are looking at all options. I sure hope they are. I think they owe her that.

I definitely agree they should be looking at all options. I feel pretty sure that they have. I was addressing the foul play theory, though, in my post. I was trying to make the point that I feel sometimes one has to read between the lines. I don't believe LE always reveals everything they know to the public, nor should they. I suppose people could hear the Sheriff state that they are planning an aerial search and take that to mean that they could be looking for Gail's Jeep, where it may be obscured in the brush, if she was involved in an accident. I don't think that is what happened, so that is why I said, to me, it says a lot. To me, it says that LE does not believe Gail left her children on her own and is living a new life somewhere else. If they did believe that, I can't imagine why they would conduct an expensive search of that type. JMHO

Emeralgem
10-06-2011, 08:10 PM
Excellent point. I re-read the article after reading your post, and I noticed it says Major Crimes DETECTIVES are working on the case. It never says the Major Crimes Unit is handling it. I also notice in looking over the HCSO website, that the same (423) 209-8940 is listed as the contact number for several of the units. Also... the article linked is 4 months old. Do we really know what specific "unit" is handling it at this point? And did the unit in charge change over time?

(This is the article referenced: http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_202911.asp)

Thank you for bringing that to my attention.... Perhaps that is the source of my confusion...

Emeralgem
10-06-2011, 08:25 PM
NCIC MP statistics for 2010:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ncic/ncic-missing-person-and-unidentified-person-statistics-for-2010

692,944 people were entered in NCIC as missing in 2010. 62K were entered as missing in April. 355,243 total for the year were females who went missing.

Statistically speaking, it is far more likely that a missing person is either a runaway juvenile or voluntarily missing.
Look at those numbers compared to the number of detectives out there.

Resources are finite for these cases-Gail is blessed because not only is the media interested, HCSO has far larger resources to devote to her case than does SMPD.


Wonder what the statistics are for domestic violence...And the number of women who have disappeared and vanished by the hands of their husbands or boyfriends..JMHO

confused
10-06-2011, 08:34 PM
I don't necessarily believe everything LE says to the public. I'm not saying they are lying, because they do not have to reveal everything to us. I think when they say, "We don't have any evidence that a crime was committed", what they may possibly mean is, "We don't have enough evidence that a crime was committed to prove it, make an arrest or name a suspect or POI". I am not convinced they have no evidence, just based on what has already been revealed. The Sheriff said they were planning an aerial search. That says a lot to me.

I don't see any reason why they would tell untruths...and as far as I know, they do not HAVE to reveal ANYTHING.

As for the aerial search, to me it says that Gail is still missing for whatever reason, but they are still looking for her. It doesn't seem to make any suggestion at all about evidence. Only that the leaves are coming down, and it would be a good time to look again.

glorias
10-06-2011, 09:01 PM
For what it's worth, HCSO investigates domestic abuse via the Criminal Investigation Division.

http://www.hcsheriff.gov/cid/dv.asp


ETA: Here's part of the HCSO webpage on what victims should do. Hope it formats properly:


SAFETY IS OUR FIRST CONCERN.

The safety of victims and children is our greatest concern. We realize that danger increases when victims attempt to leave an abusive relationship.

When leaving, the victim should:

Know how to get a protective order.
Be aware of safe places where to go.
Place the following items with a trusted friend, relative or where the abuser cannot find them:
$50 or more in cash
Small bag with clothing for victim and children
Important papers such as:
Bank account numbers
Check book
Social Security number
Abuser’s date of birth / social security number
Insurance policies
Marriage license
Birth certificates for victim and children
Important phone numbers
Sentimental valuables
Medications
Extra house/car keys

DO NOT tell the abuser where the victim is going!

glorias
10-06-2011, 09:08 PM
Responding to myself here: In looking at the things an abused wife should do, I see Gail did give money to people to hold for her, including her sister. But then the judge threw out DN and KN's paperwork apparently because Gail gave money to DN and it wasn't disclosed. It sounded like the attorneys and Councilor Black thought something hinky was going on because of those funds. So strange.

Melodie
10-06-2011, 09:14 PM
I don't see any reason why they would tell untruths...and as far as I know, they do not HAVE to reveal ANYTHING.

As for the aerial search, to me it says that Gail is still missing for whatever reason, but they are still looking for her. It doesn't seem to make any suggestion at all about evidence. Only that the leaves are coming down, and it would be a good time to look again.

I think we fairly closely agree. I wouldn't categorize it as untruths, just not saying everything. When I hear them say, "no evidence", I don't think that means they don't believe a crime was committed. That's just my opinion. They certainly don't have to reveal anything to the public, you are absolutely right. But, they have revealed some things and I just don't believe it is everything they have. And as I said, they shouldn't reveal everything. As for the aerial search, I agree it's a better time to look than during the summer because of the leaves. However, I can't understand why they would do it if they were convinced that Gail is living a life somewhere else and is voluntarily in hiding. It doesn't make sense to me. Some people might think it just means LE is keeping all options and theories open as possibilities, including foul play, and I agree. Definitely, all possibilities should be considered and investigated. I am just glad, according to that statement, that there will be some professional searches as there have been very few to this point. Searching for Gail is imperative. JMO

Snowbunny
10-06-2011, 09:23 PM
There is no doubt that Gail was planning to make her break from the marriage, after all people seem to forget she setup a new PO Box which I believe MP found out about. If it was a local PO Box then that would tell me that she was planning a divorce and not planning to split and leave her children behind. That's something for LE to consider when trying to figure out if she did leave on her own. I for one don't think she did leave on her own or her siblings would have heard from her by now. Sometimes its the little suttle things that are found that start to tell the story.

Pearl*
10-06-2011, 09:34 PM
For what it's worth, HCSO investigates domestic abuse via the Criminal Investigation Division.

Do we know that the Criminal Investigation Division is on the case, and do we know what particular areas (besides domestic violence) are handled within the division that is investigating Gail's case?

confused
10-06-2011, 09:34 PM
I think we fairly closely agree. I wouldn't categorize it as untruths, just not saying everything. When I hear them say, "no evidence", I don't think that means they don't believe a crime was committed. That's just my opinion. They certainly don't have to reveal anything to the public, you are absolutely right. But, they have revealed some things and I just don't believe it is everything they have. And as I said, they shouldn't reveal everything. As for the aerial search, I agree it's a better time to look than during the summer because of the leaves. However, I can't understand why they would do it if they were convinced that Gail is living a life somewhere else and is voluntarily in hiding. It doesn't make sense to me. Some people might think it just means LE is keeping all options and theories open as possibilities, including foul play, and I agree. Definitely, all possibilities should be considered and investigated. I am just glad, according to that statement, that there will be some professional searches as there have been very few to this point. Searching for Gail is imperative. JMO


I agree that they have not revealed everything they have. I do think when they say, "no evidence", they really mean they have nothing at all pointing to Matt doing harm to Gail. I have my personal reasons for thinking that, but LE seems to be saying in as many ways as possible that they don't have evidence, they don't suspect anyone, they don't believe foul play was involved.

I also believe that Gail gave them an idea of where she was planning to go, and she has not turned up there, that would be a good reason for the LE to continue to search for her.

glorias
10-06-2011, 09:58 PM
By the way, Mike Mathis the PI was a "former Chattanooga Police Department major crimes detective." I'm not sure if that was specifically mentioned earlier in the discussion about what criminal units are investigating.

http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_203652.asp

glorias
10-06-2011, 10:01 PM
Do we know that the Criminal Investigation Division is on the case, and do we know what particular areas (besides domestic violence) are handled within the division that is investigating Gail's case?

Either CID is on Gail's case or they aren't. Does anyone here actually know? Honest question.

Pearl*
10-06-2011, 10:07 PM
Either CID is on Gail's case or they aren't. Does anyone here actually know? Honest question.

I want to know too. Also honest question.

The shortage of separate phone numbers on the HCSO website causes me to wonder just how many "sub-specialties" of detectives are in the department. What is there besides "major crimes" detectives? Are the sub-categories all considered "major crimes" detectives?

(I can't imagine a detective accepting a "petty crimes" detective designation.)

Emeralgem
10-06-2011, 10:15 PM
Either CID is on Gail's case or they aren't. Does anyone here actually know? Honest question.


I would think major crime detectives are with the CID..

According to a local sheriff major crimes detectives are now assisting in Gail's disappearance.

http://www.examiner.com/missing-persons-in-national/gail-palmgren-missing-husband-co-worker-terminated-at-bluecross

hollyblue
10-06-2011, 10:22 PM
I guess what I can't figure out is if GP was just missing of her own accord...or even an accident, why isn't LE putting out more info on what they do know. A specific timeline they must have from cellphone pings, etc. Did they manage to get any type of info from the gps or "gizmos" on the Jeep. Where? What specific info did the friends, family and neighbors have to give that might give a clue, etc. If a person is just missing...why hold back any info the public could use in trying to locate her. If they have done other searches...why not publize it?
Besides the Jeep being underwater somewhere...why can't they find it? If Gail left on her own...and had a plan..what would she do with the jeep? What does her cellphone history reveal...going back a few months, etc. I just can't help but think they have more than what we know...and if it's nothing nefarious....then why not release it?? Do they think to do so would tip Gail off? If she was just missing....why not let the children tell what they know?

Perplexed..............

Emeralgem
10-06-2011, 10:26 PM
Husband Of Missing Signal Mountain Woman Is Fired By BlueCross
Hammond Says It Is "Highly Unusual" That Gail Palmgren's Jeep Not Yet Spotted
posted June 7, 2011


Here's another article that states major crime detectives are working Gail's case..

Sheriff Jim Hammond said major crimes detectives are working the case along with the Signal Mountain Police.


http://news.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_202911.asp

Pearl*
10-06-2011, 10:28 PM
I would think major crime detectives are with the CID..

According to a local sheriff major crimes detectives are now assisting in Gail's disappearance.

http://www.examiner.com/missing-persons-in-national/gail-palmgren-missing-husband-co-worker-terminated-at-bluecross

This article is dated June 8, which is one day after the Chattanoogan article cited earlier. Seems to be a variation of the same article. Does anybody know if the status has changed in the past four months? Is the Criminal Investigations Division handling the case at this time? And, if so, what categories are included within "Criminal Investigations" besides DV, which could apply to Gail?

Pearl*
10-06-2011, 10:34 PM
Just wondering..
IF Missing Persons investigations at HCSO are handled by the Personal Crimes Unit then why is the Criminal Investigations Unit handling Gail's investigation?

Why has LE stated that MAJOR CRIMES would be looking into Gail's disappearance? Does a Missing Person fall into MAJOR CRIMES category?


The Hamilton County Sheriff’s Office Criminal Investigations Division is requesting for anyone who may have information pertaining to this missing person investigation are urged to call 423-209-8940, Sheriff’s dispatcher 423-622-0022 or submit a tip to investigations@hcsheriff.gov


http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_202911.asp

Em, I think this is the same article. Is there another that could help clarify?

confused
10-06-2011, 11:08 PM
Missing Person > Personal Crimes > CID.

That it's a MP case is a fact - we have that from LE multiple times.
That it's assigned to CID is a fact - that's been reported and is on the HCSO website.
It's a simple thing to click on the website and see that MP fall within the PC unit of the CID.

Pearl*
10-06-2011, 11:21 PM
Missing Person > Personal Crimes > CID.

That it's a MP case is a fact - we have that from LE multiple times.
That it's assigned to CID is a fact - that's been reported and is on the HCSO website. It's a simple thing to click on the website and see that MP fall within the PC unit of the CID.

Confused, I THINK the point we are trying to get to the bottom of is:

Do we think that the assignment of the case to the Criminal Investigations Division means that HCSO believes a crime has taken place?

and...

Does the term "major crimes detectives" indicate suspicion of foul play? If not, what are the possibilites for types of cases investigated by "major crimes detectives"?

I'm wondering what other types of detectives we have in HCSO. We have not too many phone numbers that appear to include all investigative divisions of HCSO. Is it possible that when cases rise to the level of needing detective work, they are all ranked somewhat the same?

That's where I'm going with these questions. Glorias, are we going for the same answers here?

Emeralgem
10-06-2011, 11:22 PM
Em, I think this is the same article. Is there another that could help clarify?


Help clarify what?

ETA..nevermind.. My head hurts too bad to try and figure all this out...

confused
10-06-2011, 11:44 PM
Do we think that the assignment of the case to the Criminal Investigations Division means that HCSO believes a crime has taken place?

and...

Does the term "major crimes detectives" indicate suspicion of foul play?

Well, since the Sheriff himself said that they don't suspect foul play and this is still just a missing persons case, NO, I don't think they believe a crime has taken place, nor do they think there is suspicion of foul play.

CatFancier
10-07-2011, 12:16 AM
Well, since the Sheriff himself said that they don't suspect foul play and this is still just a missing persons case, NO, I don't think they believe a crime has taken place, nor do they think there is suspicion of foul play.

Hamilton County Sheriff’s Office investigators have not ruled her disappearance as foul play.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2011/sep/02/matthew-palmgren-lists-home-sale/?print

I haven't found anything quoting the sheriff as "not suspecting" foul play. In this article, he hasn't ruled it as such.

And...

There has been no evidence of foul play but investigators say they have not ruled out any possibility.

http://www.newschannel9.com/articles/home-1002746-palmgren-julanne.html

Snowbunny
10-07-2011, 12:18 AM
If LE doesn't believe that a crime was committed then why not tell the public what Gail was last wearing as someone so kindly brought up earlier in this thread? LE has told the public basically nothing in this case and I've never seen a case of a missing person without LE giving more detail and keeping the public informed of the progress that has been made. The justice system in TN leaves a lot to be desired. None of it down there in TN makes any sense and I love that state, but hate the justice system.

Kiln Wood
10-07-2011, 12:37 AM
If LE doesn't believe that a crime was committed then why not tell the public what Gail was last wearing as someone so kindly brought up earlier in this thread? LE has told the public basically nothing in this case and I've never seen a case of a missing person without LE giving more detail and keeping the public informed of the progress that has been made. The justice system in TN leaves a lot to be desired. None of it down there in TN makes any sense and I love that state, but hate the justice system.

BBM

What is the probability LE does not know what Gail was wearing when she seemingly vanished without a trace?

By the way, I love TN too!

McSpy
10-07-2011, 12:47 AM
One thing that stands out from the links is that lack of funds and resources plays a huge part in why so many missing person cases can’t be investigated deeper. It really is making it so easy for criminals to dispose of people and get away with it, all you need to do is make sure there is no sign of foul play and you are pretty much home free. Sometimes it seems the laws that are meant to be there to protect everyday citizens are becoming more about protecting criminals. The LE really do have their hands tied a lot of times when it comes to making a call on how much time they can spend on a case, gut instinct no longer can play as big a part in solving crime these days.

As someone who lives a pretty dull ordinary life I can’t understand why anyone who has a missing family member would object to talking to LE, having the LE enter and search my place. Even though I know it is my right to refuse to talk etc. my personal feeling is, if I have nothing to hide why stop the LE from
doing their job. It would give me peace of mind to be able to walk around with my head held high knowing I had done all I could to help the LE and prevent finger pointing. Also would help the LE from wasting valuable resources trying to work out if I was up to no good. Just some thoughts after reading all those links.

Again sorry for the late reply to a post...I am about to turn into a pumkin so will say good night. :)

I agree. Why not talk to LE if you know she just left? Why would the mother-in-law need a lawyer's presence if Gail just left on her own accord? It just looks like they have something to hide. Don't they realize this?

McSpy
10-07-2011, 12:50 AM
BBM

What is the probability LE does not know what Gail was wearing when she seemingly vanished without a trace?

By the way, I love TN too!

Since the kids were not allowed to talk to LE, I doubt anyone else knew what she was wearing. The kids were the last people to have seen her.

McSpy
10-07-2011, 12:57 AM
Missing Person > Personal Crimes > CID.

That it's a MP case is a fact - we have that from LE multiple times.
That it's assigned to CID is a fact - that's been reported and is on the HCSO website.
It's a simple thing to click on the website and see that MP fall within the PC unit of the CID.

Being labeled a missing person is not carved in stone. The status can change in a heart beat. LE simply doesn't know what happened to her. They could privately have their own ideas on what happened to her though. They often do.

McSpy
10-07-2011, 01:25 AM
What has become completely overwhelming to me since I started following the case is the sheer number of women who disappear, whose husband state the women just ran off because of marital strife. So many people seem to think it's very common for a woman to disappear, leave behind family and children and friends, abandon money and valuables and sentimental items, get a new name and new social security number and hide for the rest of their days.

In my world, it's common to get a divorce, not to disappear without a trace. As I said, that's my world, which apparently is not the real world if this case is any indication.

Then LE doesn't do any timely searches, doesn't interview the people closest to Gail, doesn't release even basic information like what Gail was wearing or what direction she was traveling so
people could be on the lookout for her, then LE proclaims to the media that they have no evidence of anything. Of course they don't have any evidence of anything. Who would under those circumstances?

If you read the circumstances in missing womens' lives before they disappeared, they were often in an estranged marriage or in a troubled realationship of some sort. Some of these women have been missing for decades. Often you would see their status change from "missing person" to "endangered missing" with LE thinking it was foul play years or decades after the disappearance.

McSpy
10-07-2011, 01:31 AM
For what it's worth, HCSO investigates domestic abuse via the Criminal Investigation Division.

http://www.hcsheriff.gov/cid/dv.asp


ETA: Here's part of the HCSO webpage on what victims should do. Hope it formats properly:

Now, this would have been a good question for the children to answer. They could have seen Gail packing a bag, putting papers in an envelope, or doing any number of things from the list. Since LE wasn't allowed to ask the kids any questions, no one knows if she was preparing to leave.

McSpy
10-07-2011, 01:46 AM
There is no doubt that Gail was planning to make her break from the marriage, after all people seem to forget she setup a new PO Box which I believe MP found out about. If it was a local PO Box then that would tell me that she was planning a divorce and not planning to split and leave her children behind. That's something for LE to consider when trying to figure out if she did leave on her own. I for one don't think she did leave on her own or her siblings would have heard from her by now. Sometimes its the little suttle things that are found that start to tell the story.

Good observation! Although, I don't think it is impossible she didn't leave on her own accord, but these little subtle details do tell us she was making plans for the divorce. I don't doubt she was emotional and depressed at the time, but the fact that she was also scared makes me think of foul play.

RavenTrue
10-07-2011, 02:02 AM
Baby in tow so have little time here. Was so hopeful about Gail. Now...nothing!
Very sad that someone can get away with this...go to the light/the source then you will see!

Emeralgem
10-07-2011, 06:28 AM
BBM

What is the probability LE does not know what Gail was wearing when she seemingly vanished without a trace?

By the way, I love TN too!

Since MP will not allow LE to speak with the children I highly suspect LE may not know what Gail was wearing.

And we all know... MP got a lawyer... TH got a lawyer... His mama got a lawyer too... They all got a lawyer.

As for Gail... Gail got disappeared...Vanished w/o a trace. JMHO

CatFancier
10-07-2011, 06:34 AM
BBM

What is the probability LE does not know what Gail was wearing when she seemingly vanished without a trace?

By the way, I love TN too!

If MP won't let the children talk to LE and they are the only ones who physically saw her that day...almost 100%.

Emeralgem
10-07-2011, 07:53 AM
There are too too many men out there who have managed to have their wives erased for LE not to suspect MP of being involved in Gail's disappearance..JMHO


ETA.. I just read on twitter..

CUE ROAD 2 REMEMBER-National Tour 2011~Signal Mountain,TN Sat-10.22.2011~Will spotlight GAIL PALMGREN's Case~PRUETT'S MARKET@ 1pm on TAFT

believe09
10-07-2011, 08:55 AM
No more LE bashing please. It is not permitted via TOS. There is no reason to believe that these jurisdictions have been anything other than active in the investigation of Gail's disappearance.

Oriah
10-07-2011, 10:35 AM
BBM

What is the probability LE does not know what Gail was wearing when she seemingly vanished without a trace?

By the way, I love TN too!

Kiln Wood, I had to respond to this post. Like, really really really respond because I think it is very valuable.

From a SAR perspective, last seen clothing is invaluable info, imvho.

But the reality is, sometimes there just isn't any- for a variety of reasons.

Slightly O/T - but we were out on a call last night (and I am a master at remembering stuff... I know exactly what the MP was described as last seen wearing. Could describe in detail, probably 10 yrs from now lol.) But then I came back in, took a shower- and couldn't tell you for the life of me which pants I was wearing, unless I check the laundry basket now.

That's because I auto-pilot when I get in from a job, if that makes any sense?

I don't think anyone checked Gail's laundry basket right away. And that's not bashing GP, MP, LE or anyone else.
Just- thought process of mine.

BeanE
10-07-2011, 11:02 AM
I guess what I can't figure out is if GP was just missing of her own accord...or even an accident, why isn't LE putting out more info on what they do know. A specific timeline they must have from cellphone pings, etc. Did they manage to get any type of info from the gps or "gizmos" on the Jeep. Where? What specific info did the friends, family and neighbors have to give that might give a clue, etc. If a person is just missing...why hold back any info the public could use in trying to locate her. If they have done other searches...why not publize it?
Besides the Jeep being underwater somewhere...why can't they find it? If Gail left on her own...and had a plan..what would she do with the jeep? What does her cellphone history reveal...going back a few months, etc. I just can't help but think they have more than what we know...and if it's nothing nefarious....then why not release it?? Do they think to do so would tip Gail off? If she was just missing....why not let the children tell what they know?

Perplexed..............

There are good reasons LE doesn't release that kind of info to the public in these cases.

The #1 reason that jumps out to me is that it would present a risk if the woman has gone to a shelter.

In that instance, releasing that kind of info to the public risks members of the public - and the potential abuser - tracking the woman to a shelter, putting not only her safety, but the safety of all the other women and children in the shelter, at risk.

We don't want the public - and certainly don't want abusers - tracking women to shelters.

We desperately need to keep shelter locations, as well as pick up points, secret.

Pearl*
10-07-2011, 11:35 AM
There's are good reasons LE doesn't release that kind of info to the public in these cases.

The #1 reason that jumps out to me is that it would present a risk if the woman has gone to a shelter.

In that instance, releasing that kind of info to the public risks members of the public - and the potential abuser - tracking the woman to a shelter, putting not only her safety, but the safety of all the other women and children in the shelter, at risk.

We don't want the public - and certainly don't want abusers - tracking women to shelters.

We desperately need to keep shelter locations, as well as pick up points, secret.

I don't think that point can be emphasized too much. Been there; done that. Protocol is incredibly tight and for good reason. Otherwise no one would go. It's full of scared women and children, all with abusers of different personalities who are desperate to find them. Security is tight as a drum, and I'm not aware of any local cases where an abuser was able to get to any victim in a shelter locally.

I want to assure any locals who may be afraid to go to a local shelter that it is a place of safety. It's not the Hilton, but please go if you need a safe place to breathe and regroup. You WILL be safe there. I hope I'm not too far off topic, mods.

Snowbunny
10-07-2011, 05:01 PM
I wished I still lived in TN because I would get a group of people together and walk the roads from the main house down using binoculars and checking ever crook and cranny along the road. It might take a few days to do it but then one can be rest assured that Gail didn't go off into the ditch.

McSpy
10-07-2011, 06:32 PM
I don't think that point can be emphasized too much. Been there; done that. Protocol is incredibly tight and for good reason. Otherwise no one would go. It's full of scared women and children, all with abusers of different personalities who are desperate to find them. Security is tight as a drum, and I'm not aware of any local cases where an abuser was able to get to any victim in a shelter locally.

I want to assure any locals who may be afraid to go to a local shelter that it is a place of safety. It's not the Hilton, but please go if you need a safe place to breathe and regroup. You WILL be safe there. I hope I'm not too far off topic, mods.

I could be wrong on this, but Gail's situation was a bit different from most of these women in shelters. As far as I know, he wanted the divorce, but on his terms. Most of the women in the shelters have men after them, who don't want the women to leave. These men want to control these women and they feel the women have no right to leave them. These men would rather kill them then let them go. I don't think this is the case with the Palmgren marriage. Their issues were most likely over the kids, the property, and the terms. It is obvious their arguments got heated, but my impression is that he couldn't care less if she took off. However, only without the kids and her part of the marital property.

Irish_Eyes
10-07-2011, 07:47 PM
I could be wrong on this, but Gail's situation was a bit different from most of these women in shelters. As far as I know, he wanted the divorce, but on his terms. Most of the women in the shelters have men after them, who don't want the women to leave. These men want to control these women and they feel the women have no right to leave them. These men would rather kill them then let them go. I don't think this is the case with the Palmgren marriage. Their issues were most likely over the kids, the property, and the terms. It is obvious their arguments got heated, but my impression is that he couldn't care less if she took off. However, only without the kids and her part of the marital property.

Actually, that is not entirely true. Some abusers are stereotypical abusers who won't let the victim leave at all costs. Other times, such as if an abuser has found a new relationship that is more fulfilling to them, they may want the victim out of the way so the new relationship can proceed - but at the same time still want to maintain absolute control of her. If the couple has children, usually the family courts will be the way he maintains his control. Some abusers file motion after motion for years - even decades as they seek to punish her in the only ways they have left - by threatening to take her children away, by publicly slandering and humiliating her in specious court filings, by destroying her financial stability. Local DV centers will tell you they get these calls frequently also. In fact, our local center just got a $300,000 grant to work with our family courts on better servicing DV victims in custody litigation with abusers.

Pearl*
10-07-2011, 07:53 PM
I could be wrong on this, but Gail's situation was a bit different from most of these women in shelters. As far as I know, he wanted the divorce, but on his terms. Most of the women in the shelters have men after them, who don't want the women to leave. These men want to control these women and they feel the women have no right to leave them. These men would rather kill them then let them go. I don't think this is the case with the Palmgren marriage. Their issues were most likely over the kids, the property, and the terms. It is obvious their arguments got heated, but my impression is that he couldn't care less if she took off. However, only without the kids and her part of the marital property.

I have no reason to believe Gail went to a shelter. Of course, anything is possible, but my comments were more specifically related to the post I had quoted. I am not implying that Gail's disappearance in any way related to a domestic violence issue, because I think that would be an inappropriate assumption.

I will say this though: I learned there is no "typical" case. I really cannot think of a sentence I could accurately begin with, "Most of the women in shelters...." The cases are as varied as the people, and those who have never been in a shelter would probably be shocked at the wide range of situations that bring women and children there.

ETA: So...to anybody who feels the need to go, you won't be "out of place," because there is no typical "place." Varied professions, educational levels, socio-economic levels--there are no boundaries. Really.

Pearl*
10-07-2011, 07:54 PM
Irish Eyes, I see we were typing at the same time. :)

sreshowtime
10-08-2011, 03:56 PM
Haven't read ALL associated with this case, sorry, but is it know if GP DID indeed ever use the vehicle to go off road. Does she have actual experience off roading, or would that have been something unfamiliar to do for her?? In this vehicle or any other?

hollyblue
10-08-2011, 06:47 PM
I could be wrong on this, but Gail's situation was a bit different from most of these women in shelters. As far as I know, he wanted the divorce, but on his terms. Most of the women in the shelters have men after them, who don't want the women to leave. These men want to control these women and they feel the women have no right to leave them. These men would rather kill them then let them go. I don't think this is the case with the Palmgren marriage. Their issues were most likely over the kids, the property, and the terms. It is obvious their arguments got heated, but my impression is that he couldn't care less if she took off. However, only without the kids and her part of the marital property.

I don't know if Gail chose to run to a shelter in the beginning, but after this amount of time, I truly doubt it. She had family and a network of very capable friends she could rely on. She had access to funds she could tap into to sustain her....no matter where she chose to go, IF she did. MOO, I don't think so. JMO, but I respectively, disagree that MP wanted a divorce. I really don't believe he did and have felt this from the beginning. He wanted his cake and the time and opportunity to eat it to. I know someone stated that MP had told her on the phone during the "conference" he was going to file for divorce the following week, but I so wish I could hear his voice when saying it....the context it was stated, the exact words he used, and the tone of his voice. It could have been stated in such a way as a threat...and Gail knew it. IF MP had anything to do with terrorizing her, ie, following her to make her frightened, unsure, and paranoid...maybe he was trying to push her to mental instability...or suicide. Gail was in a fragile state and re-evaluating her life after the loss of her brother, her job and trying to make the transition to a full time mother and wife (for her whole family)....then she discovers everything she was focusing on and sacrificing to make it happen... was in vain... she had been lied to and duped by the person she was making many of those changes for. He continued to drink (no sacrifice)...she attended meetings in how to cope....and THEN she discovers he had been caring on with an affair...for how long? He didn't waste any time to call her sister hundreds of miles away and make threats....twice-- after each time LE immediately left. What was he so urgently angry and/or afraid of-- to feel he had to make those calls? Adamant in getting what known to GP? He and Gail apparently had discussed him telling the children about the separation...it never took place. If he was so set to be with TH he could have called his attorney and started those divorce proceedings long ago....or at least separated from Gail...he didn't. Maybe he was trying to make her bonkos, just for control and submission...or to have her committed, but he wanted the fruits of what GP brought to marriage and didn't want to make any kind of sacrifices, imo. That failed big time when he discovered GP was one up on him....through her PI...and had the goods on him that not only could spoil his plans in keeping control over GP, the children and her assets...but his job and image as well. I believe GP made the huge and common mistake of telling him all she knew in that phone call. That conference was the catalyst...and last straw for Gail, she was all prepared to face him in court...and pop his manipulations in acquiring his "perfect way of life" lifestyle and future goals gained by it. I also think there are some heavy secrets tied up in this...hence, his mother and TH needing an attorney and other certain family members coming out in his dire defense. Time will tell....and if so, I have no doubt the FBI sniffed it out by now.

He had lost...and his only way to regain it was ultimate control* at that point in his mind, imo. *DV It took me awhile to write..and rewrite this...to be "nice"....it's not the emotion I'm feeling at the moment.... As someone else has mentioned....Gail was/is entitled to the many things she worked and made sacrifices for too...not for her liberties to be shaken or stripped...and certainly not for her to disappear. .

JMO, MOO, etc.

hollyblue
10-08-2011, 06:49 PM
http://www.turningpointservices.org/images/wheelpowercontrol.gif

http://www.turningpointservices.org/Domestic%20Violence%20-%20Power%20and%20Control%20Wheel.htm (http://www.turningpointservices.org/Domestic%20Violence%20-%20Power%20and%20Control%20Wheel.htm)

CatFancier
10-08-2011, 06:58 PM
I don't know if Gail chose to run to a shelter in the beginning, but after this amount of time, I truly doubt it. She had family and a network of very capable friends she could rely on. She had access to funds she could tap into to sustain her....no matter where she chose to go, IF she did. MOO, I don't think so. JMO, but I respectively, disagree that MP wanted a divorce. I really don't believe he did and have felt this from the beginning. He wanted his cake and the time and opportunity to eat it to. I know someone stated that MP had told her on the phone during the "conference" he was going to file for divorce the following week, but I so wish I could hear his voice when saying it....the context it was stated, the exact words he used, and the tone of his voice. It could have been stated in such a way as a threat...and Gail knew it. IF MP had anything to do with terrorizing her, ie, following her to make her frightened, unsure, and paranoid...maybe he was trying to push her to mental instability...or suicide. Gail was in a fragile state and re-evaluating her life after the loss of her brother, her job and trying to make the transition to a full time mother and wife (for her whole family)....then she discovers everything she was focusing on and sacrificing to make it happen... was in vain... she had been lied to and duped by the person she was making many of those changes for. He continued to drink (no sacrifice)...she attended meetings in how to cope....and THEN she discovers he had been caring on with an affair...for how long? He didn't waste any time to call her sister hundreds of miles away and make threats....twice-- after each time LE immediately left. What was he so urgently angry and/or afraid of-- to feel he had to make those calls? Adamant in getting what known to GP? He and Gail apparently had discussed him telling the children about the separation...it never took place. If he was so set to be with TH he could have called his attorney and started those divorce proceedings long ago....or at least separated from Gail...he didn't. Maybe he was trying to make her bonkos, just for control and submission...or to have her committed, but he wanted the fruits of what GP brought to marriage and didn't want to make any kind of sacrifices, imo. That failed big time when he discovered GP was one up on him....through her PI...and had the goods on him that not only could spoil his plans in keeping control over GP, the children and her assets...but his job and image as well. I believe GP made the huge and common mistake of telling him all she knew in that phone call. That conference was the catalyst...and last straw for Gail, she was all prepared to face him in court...and pop his manipulations in acquiring his "perfect way of life" lifestyle and future goals gained by it. I also think there are some heavy secrets tied up in this...hence, his mother and TH needing an attorney and other certain family members coming out in his dire defense. Time will tell....and if so, I have no doubt the FBI sniffed it out by now.

He had lost...and his only way to regain it was ultimate control* at that point in his mind, imo. *DV It took me awhile to write..and rewrite this...to be "nice"....it's not the emotion I'm feeling at the moment.... As someone else has mentioned....Gail was/is entitled to the many things she worked and made sacrifices for too...not for her liberties to be shaken or striped...and certainly not for her to disappear. .

JMO, MOO, etc.

:goodpost:

Melodie
10-08-2011, 07:12 PM
I don't know if Gail chose to run to a shelter in the beginning, but after this amount of time, I truly doubt it. She had family and a network of very capable friends she could rely on. She had access to funds she could tap into to sustain her....no matter where she chose to go, IF she did. MOO, I don't think so. JMO, but I respectively, disagree that MP wanted a divorce. I really don't believe he did and have felt this from the beginning. He wanted his cake and the time and opportunity to eat it to. I know someone stated that MP had told her on the phone during the "conference" he was going to file for divorce the following week, but I so wish I could hear his voice when saying it....the context it was stated, the exact words he used, and the tone of his voice. It could have been stated in such a way as a threat...and Gail knew it. IF MP had anything to do with terrorizing her, ie, following her to make her frightened, unsure, and paranoid...maybe he was trying to push her to mental instability...or suicide. Gail was in a fragile state and re-evaluating her life after the loss of her brother, her job and trying to make the transition to a full time mother and wife (for her whole family)....then she discovers everything she was focusing on and sacrificing to make it happen... was in vain... she had been lied to and duped by the person she was making many of those changes for. He continued to drink (no sacrifice)...she attended meetings in how to cope....and THEN she discovers he had been caring on with an affair...for how long? He didn't waste any time to call her sister hundreds of miles away and make threats....twice-- after each time LE immediately left. What was he so urgently angry and/or afraid of-- to feel he had to make those calls? Adamant in getting what known to GP? He and Gail apparently had discussed him telling the children about the separation...it never took place. If he was so set to be with TH he could have called his attorney and started those divorce proceedings long ago....or at least separated from Gail...he didn't. Maybe he was trying to make her bonkos, just for control and submission...or to have her committed, but he wanted the fruits of what GP brought to marriage and didn't want to make any kind of sacrifices, imo. That failed big time when he discovered GP was one up on him....through her PI...and had the goods on him that not only could spoil his plans in keeping control over GP, the children and her assets...but his job and image as well. I believe GP made the huge and common mistake of telling him all she knew in that phone call. That conference was the catalyst...and last straw for Gail, she was all prepared to face him in court...and pop his manipulations in acquiring his "perfect way of life" lifestyle and future goals gained by it. I also think there are some heavy secrets tied up in this...hence, his mother and TH needing an attorney and other certain family members coming out in his dire defense. Time will tell....and if so, I have no doubt the FBI sniffed it out by now.

He had lost...and his only way to regain it was ultimate control* at that point in his mind, imo. *DV It took me awhile to write..and rewrite this...to be "nice"....it's not the emotion I'm feeling at the moment.... As someone else has mentioned....Gail was/is entitled to the many things she worked and made sacrifices for too...not for her liberties to be shaken or striped...and certainly not for her to disappear. .

JMO, MOO, etc.

BBM I agree. Also, I don't think it would be normal procedure for the staff at a shelter to encourage or endorse a mother leaving her children either permanently or for an extended period of time. In other words, if Gail showed up at a shelter during an acute situation, I think that they would assist her to formulate a plan to regain custody of her children and I don't think the plan would involve no contact with anyone for 5+ months. I have never worked in a DV shelter, but I would think the number one priority for them would be to not only ensure Gail's safety but reunite her with her children safely as soon as possible. The process would probably involve retaining an attorney immediately and going to court. Gail also has many resources available to her that most of the women in shelters may not have. This is why I don't believe she is in a shelter. JMO

ThoughtFox
10-08-2011, 07:39 PM
I wished I still lived in TN because I would get a group of people together and walk the roads from the main house down using binoculars and checking ever crook and cranny along the road. It might take a few days to do it but then one can be rest assured that Gail didn't go off into the ditch.

I think this will happen after all the leaves fall. The problem is, she disappeared just after all the trees and shrubs got their full green growth for the year. We've had one frost warning for the mountains in the past week, but it hasn't been cold enough yet to kill plants like kudzu (any type of vehicle could be hidden under those types of vines).

It's really just a matter of time. By the end of the month, it will be much easier to see what is in the ravines on the side of the mountain roads. It usually happens almost overnight, although oak trees take a bit longer to lose their leaves.

Melodie
10-09-2011, 06:00 PM
Baby in tow so have little time here. Was so hopeful about Gail. Now...nothing!
Very sad that someone can get away with this...go to the light/the source then you will see!

Very sad indeed.

Melodie
10-09-2011, 06:03 PM
http://www.turningpointservices.org/images/wheelpowercontrol.gif

http://www.turningpointservices.org/Domestic%20Violence%20-%20Power%20and%20Control%20Wheel.htm (http://www.turningpointservices.org/Domestic%20Violence%20-%20Power%20and%20Control%20Wheel.htm)

Thank you for posting this. I think it is very accurate. I was doing some DV research online and found many sites listing advice for women planning to leave an abusive relationship and I could not find a single one that suggested leaving the children behind. JMO

believe09
10-09-2011, 08:07 PM
http://www.turningpointservices.org/images/wheelpowercontrol.gif

http://www.turningpointservices.org/Domestic%20Violence%20-%20Power%20and%20Control%20Wheel.htm (http://www.turningpointservices.org/Domestic%20Violence%20-%20Power%20and%20Control%20Wheel.htm)

Thank you for this. What of this do we know Gail was experiencing at the hands of Matt? Other than hearsay, but I mean via the police and media reports?

Irish_Eyes
10-09-2011, 08:23 PM
Thank you for this. What of this do we know Gail was experiencing at the hands of Matt? Other than hearsay, but I mean via the police and media reports?

We really only know that she was scared, from several sources, and that LE gave her the number of a safe place to stay. (Right? That's all I can think of.)

I don't think anyone said for sure the wheel applies to the P's case, only that agreeing to a divorce doesn't preclude the possibility of abusive dynamics in a relationship.

believe09
10-09-2011, 08:30 PM
I agree-we can safely say she was scared, we know that she was stashing money and possessions around, and it is easy to assume she was battered in someway because there were previous reports of police heading to try and resolve conflict between Gail and Matt.

But we dont know what she was scared of, and if it was Matt, we dont know what caused her to turn the children over to him instead of bringing them with her.

hollyblue
10-09-2011, 09:04 PM
Thank you for this. What of this do we know Gail was experiencing at the hands of Matt? Other than hearsay, but I mean via the police and media reports?

Agree believe, we don't have much to go on except what has been quoted by family and friends of both. Really nothing but a glimpse of GP from LE or MP since the beginning except their opposing views on her mental status...and the police reports. Nothing further from MP except his actions that we learned about. I agree it's been mostly from AD, and it's up to each person to believe what she has stated or believes to be the truth.

I think you will see my reasoning behind my prior post...which has to be monitored before it's allowed. ?? Basically all domestic violence issues, whether it be physical, emotional, verbal or financial abuse is about control/fear. It's also DV awareness month and another reason why I posted it. The website is plain and simple and to the point with the valuable info it gives. I've had it since I ask Amandarekinwith? for it in Rachael's case.
jmo

ETA: Nevermind about the monitored post...I now realize the post I was replying to was deleted in the interim.

BeanE
10-09-2011, 09:47 PM
Thank you for posting this. I think it is very accurate. I was doing some DV research online and found many sites listing advice for women planning to leave an abusive relationship and I could not find a single one that suggested leaving the children behind. JMO

Of course not. It's the decision of each individual woman.

Some of the underground DV shelters do prefer that the women leave their children behind if possible, if the children can be adequately cared for, and if the children are not being abused.

Also, if a woman shows up and doesn't identify herself or acknowledge she has children, there's no way for the shelter workers to know about them.

A shelter won't encourage a woman to keep her children with her, or to re-establish a relationship with them, or re-gain custody of them, unless that is something the woman wants to do. It's each woman's decision, and her decision will be supported.

It's important with women who come to the shelters that they not be judged, and that their decisions be supported. Abused women typically have problems with self confidence, self esteem, self reliance, etc.

Annie_61
10-09-2011, 11:34 PM
Of course not. It's the decision of each individual woman.

Some of the underground DV shelters do prefer that the women leave their children behind if possible, if the children can be adequately cared for, and if the children are not being abused.

Also, if a woman shows up and doesn't identify herself or acknowledge she has children, there's no way for the shelter workers to know about them.

A shelter won't encourage a woman to keep her children with her, or to re-establish a relationship with them, or re-gain custody of them, unless that is something the woman wants to do. It's each woman's decision, and her decision will be supported.

It's important with women who come to the shelters that they not be judged, and that their decisions be supported. Abused women typically have problems with self confidence, self esteem, self reliance, etc.

BeanE thank you for more information on under ground shelters.

I do have some concerns regarding shelters that operate in this way.
One is if a woman can enter them with no name, no information, don’t have to give any details or even a real name and as you stated in a previous post they will set them and their children up with a new identity’s, find them accommodation, find them a job, help them set up a total new life without informing anyone, my questions is, how do they know these women aren’t criminals, someone who has killed their spouse, harmed their child, stolen millions from their employer/ family, someone who wants to run away from debt and start a new life etc? How do they know the woman is a psychotic woman who has stolen someone’s baby, or trying to hide her kids from her ex just because she doesn’t want him in their live?

Are these shelters legal in what they do? Are these shelters easily found? If we are looking at the scenario that this is what Gail has done, how would Gail have found such a shelter? Would this kind of shelter be the sort the LE give out numbers to?

I fully understand the need for shelters to protect and help woman who are abused and vulnerable but isn’t this taking it to a dangerous level of the service being abused by women who know the system and will use it to hide from almost anything other than abuse.

Although my personal experience is Australian based I have asked questions of a dear friend who lives in Indiana who works in a women’s shelter and councils abused women. I won’t post her answers to my questions here as I realise she is not verified or a member but it does bring me to question the chances of Gail ending up in such a shelter.

I think nobody would argue some women in desperate situations need desperate measures to keep them safe but if it is as easy as you describe to walk in and have your whole life previous life wiped out and replaced with a new identity, then it does seem to me a system that could be to easily abused by the wrong people.

These are just thoughts that come to mind on your information and I am not questioning your expertise in this field because it is seems you have or do work in the field and I am sure you are used to people being a little alarmed that the system could help the wrong sort of women disappeared.

BeanE
10-10-2011, 10:16 AM
BeanE thank you for more information on under ground shelters.

I do have some concerns regarding shelters that operate in this way.
One is if a woman can enter them with no name, no information, don’t have to give any details or even a real name and as you stated in a previous post they will set them and their children up with a new identity’s, find them accommodation, find them a job, help them set up a total new life without informing anyone, my questions is, how do they know these women aren’t criminals, someone who has killed their spouse, harmed their child, stolen millions from their employer/ family, someone who wants to run away from debt and start a new life etc? How do they know the woman is a psychotic woman who has stolen someone’s baby, or trying to hide her kids from her ex just because she doesn’t want him in their live?

Are these shelters legal in what they do? Are these shelters easily found? If we are looking at the scenario that this is what Gail has done, how would Gail have found such a shelter? Would this kind of shelter be the sort the LE give out numbers to?

I fully understand the need for shelters to protect and help woman who are abused and vulnerable but isn’t this taking it to a dangerous level of the service being abused by women who know the system and will use it to hide from almost anything other than abuse.

Although my personal experience is Australian based I have asked questions of a dear friend who lives in Indiana who works in a women’s shelter and councils abused women. I won’t post her answers to my questions here as I realise she is not verified or a member but it does bring me to question the chances of Gail ending up in such a shelter.

I think nobody would argue some women in desperate situations need desperate measures to keep them safe but if it is as easy as you describe to walk in and have your whole life previous life wiped out and replaced with a new identity, then it does seem to me a system that could be to easily abused by the wrong people.

These are just thoughts that come to mind on your information and I am not questioning your expertise in this field because it is seems you have or do work in the field and I am sure you are used to people being a little alarmed that the system could help the wrong sort of women disappeared.

Let me clarify, because I think you may have misunderstood. The only reference I made to underground shelters is in the second sentence of my post. All other references were to the regular shelters - not the underground shelters.

In regard to the underground shelters, I have some really serious concerns about some of them too. It's a big issue, and we could probably fill a whole sub-forum on here discussing them.

Personally, I just don't think - for a number of reasons - that Gail went to an underground shelter. If others want to explore that as a possibility, it's certainly fine with me, but I just don't see it as enough of a possibility for me, personally, to put effort into.

I do think there's a strong possibility that Gail went to a regular shelter, and is well worth exploring.

In the regular shelters, women can enter without giving a name, or with giving a false name. A woman doesn't need to give or to have information, papers, money, clothes, job, ID, etc.

Not identifying herself or giving a false name and still getting help is a right granted by law to abused women for their safety, so that they can save their life.

Not having anything with her or available to her and still getting help is a right granted to abused women by law so that they can save their life.

It's critically important to me that women know this, so that if they're abused, and happen to read this, they won't hesitate for a second to contact a shelter for help. Women and children are murdered in just a moment of hesitation. Let's make sure abused women don't hesitate to make that call and save their life.

Yes, the system can be abused by someone who doesn't qualify for services, but that's the price we pay to save the lives of those who do need help, and it's well worth it. You just can't put a price tag on a life.

The shelter organizations do have screening processes in place to minimize abuses of the system, so believe me, there are not droves of women going to shelters to take vacations.

I have to say - again for the sake of any abused woman who may be reading - that the screening process is not difficult - you're just asked some questions - and no abused woman, or woman with abused children, should be scared of it or worried about it. The shelter workers are trained to understand that it's hard to talk about abuse, and that it's common for abused women to have been subjected to the instillation of doubt by their abuser, and the workers are trained not to exacerbate that.

Shelters exist to help abused women and children. It's the whole reason for their existence. They're not there to keep safe women from getting help. They're there to ensure that abused women and children do get help. It's important to keep that goal and mindset of shelters in mind.

Shelter workers are trained to err on the side of caution so that they don't turn away women only for that woman to leave and be murdered by her abuser.

The entire reason for the existence of shelters is to save the lives of abused women and children. They have little money, and what little they have, they definitely want to put into women and children who really need their help. They don't lose sight though - unless they're perhaps burned out or poorly trained - that their reason for existence is to save lives.

It is possible, precisely because of the goal and mindset of shelters, as well as the training the workers undergo about the nature of abuse and how to deal with the women who seek services, for a woman who is not abused to get shelter services, change her identity, and start a new life.

Nobody familiar with shelters likes it - we all want every penny to go to helping the desperate women and children who really need help. But the few who exploit the system is, when it comes down to it, a small price to pay for the lives that shelters save, and I think we'd all be more than willing to pay a lot more if we could just save more lives of women and children.

There's a fear among shelter workers - and I share that fear - of women exploiting the system and taking money and services away from women and children who really need them, especially because the shelters have so little money to begin with. For myself, most of the time, I don't even talk about that one little loophole, because of my own fear.

It's appropriate to talk about though in this case IMO because I feel that that loophole - the woman's legal right not to self-identify at shelters - is key to a very viable theory of what happened to Gail after she left her home that day. It's not common knowledge, but Gail is a very smart woman - holds a doctorate - seems to have been exploring leaving - uses the internet - had friends and acquaintances who could have told her about it - and I think she would have easily come across it and easily recognized what she could do with that information.

One more thing - regarding criminals etc - Any woman thinking about using a shelter as a means to circumvent the law - for example a fugitive or someone with a warrant out for their arrest - should know that the laws above do not apply in that sort of circumstance. Shelters are there, and the laws are there, to save the lives of abused women and children - not to help criminals circumvent the law. No free passes on that one.

McSpy
10-10-2011, 12:56 PM
Was it expected that Gail was to return to the lake house after dropping off the kids?
If so, why would she go to a shelter? At the lake house, she was miles and miles away from MP. Also, did she and MP have a plan for her to pick up the kids? In other words, when did he expect her to return?

McSpy
10-10-2011, 01:09 PM
Does anyone know how Blue Cross found out about him not attending the conference and using that time with a female colleague at a hotel out of state?

Emeralgem
10-10-2011, 01:29 PM
Was it expected that Gail was to return to the lake house after dropping off the kids?
If so, why would she go to a shelter? At the lake house, she was miles and miles away from MP. Also, did she and MP have a plan for her to pick up the kids? In other words, when did he expect her to return?

Good question..

Hasn't MP denied ever seeing or speaking to Gail on the 30th? Reason I’m asking I recall seeing something about him being the last person to speak with her, but I can no longer remember where I saw that tidbit of information..

One thing, I find puzzling is IF he has denied ever seeing her or speaking to her on the 30th WHY did he think she went to the lake house in Alabama or WHY did he wait so long to report her as being missing.? After all wasn’t her drivers license, credit cards left behind at the residence?

IMO something is way hinky concerning Matt P...I’m thinking he planned the whole ruse to get Gail to somehow leave her children at the residence

Also, do we know IF GP made a telephone call to SMPD or did she text a message to someone at SMPD telling them she was leaving the children at the residence? JMHO..

Emeralgem
10-10-2011, 01:35 PM
Does anyone know how Blue Cross found out about him not attending the conference and using that time with a female colleague at a hotel out of state?

I'm not only interested in how they found out but when did they find out he didn't attend the conference but was spending their time and their dime with TH at another location....JMHO..

BeanE
10-10-2011, 01:35 PM
Was it expected that Gail was to return to the lake house after dropping off the kids?
If so, why would she go to a shelter? At the lake house, she was miles and miles away from MP. Also, did she and MP have a plan for her to pick up the kids? In other words, when did he expect her to return?

I've never seen anything indicating where Gail's intent was to go after dropping off the kids.

BeanE
10-10-2011, 01:36 PM
Does anyone know how Blue Cross found out about him not attending the conference and using that time with a female colleague at a hotel out of state?

Excellent question.

BeanE
10-10-2011, 01:43 PM
Good question..

Hasn't MP denied ever seeing or speaking to Gail on the 30th? Reason I’m asking I recall seeing something about him being the last person to speak with her, but I can no longer remember where I saw that tidbit of information..

One thing, I find puzzling is IF he has denied ever seeing her or speaking to her on the 30th WHY did he think she went to the lake house in Alabama or WHY did he wait so long to report her as being missing.? After all wasn’t her drivers license, credit cards left behind at the residence?

IMO something is way hinky concerning Matt P...I’m thinking he planned the whole ruse to get Gail to somehow leave her children at the residence

Also, do we know IF GP made a telephone call to SMPD or did she text a message to someone at SMPD telling them she was leaving the children at the residence? JMHO..

I've never seen anything where Matt denied having spoken to Gail on the 30th.

I've never seen anything confirming who the last person was to speak with Gail on the 30th. I've seen speculation and opinion, but no confirmation.

IIRC Gail's communications with SMPD on the 30th have all been characterized as calls, her speaking with them on the phone, rather than texts, as well as her having called and asked Diane to contact SMPD for her, which my recollection is was characterized as a call rather than a text.

Emeralgem
10-10-2011, 03:09 PM
I've never seen anything where Matt denied having spoken to Gail on the 30th.

I've never seen anything confirming who the last person was to speak with Gail on the 30th. I've seen speculation and opinion, but no confirmation.

IIRC Gail's communications with SMPD on the 30th have all been characterized as calls, her speaking with them on the phone, rather than texts, as well as her having called and asked Diane to contact SMPD for her, which my recollection is was characterized as a call rather than a text.

And I've never seen anything where Matt P has claimed he had spoken to Gail on the 30th.

IIRC...Matt P. said he was at his mothers and he had proposed to meet Gail at the residence on April 30, but when he arrived she was gone, having left the two children "by themselves without any supervision."


Guess I'm taking that to mean he did not speak with her or see her on the 30th..

I do recall seeing it revealed somewhere that he was the last person to speak with her though eventhough I cannot find it now or remember where I saw that tidbit of information posted... In reference to myself I did not view that information eventhough it may have been removed as being speculative or just someone's opinion..But thats JMHOOTS

stilettos
10-10-2011, 03:18 PM
Of course not. It's the decision of each individual woman.

Some of the underground DV shelters do prefer that the women leave their children behind if possible, if the children can be adequately cared for, and if the children are not being abused.

Also, if a woman shows up and doesn't identify herself or acknowledge she has children, there's no way for the shelter workers to know about them.

A shelter won't encourage a woman to keep her children with her, or to re-establish a relationship with them, or re-gain custody of them, unless that is something the woman wants to do. It's each woman's decision, and her decision will be supported.

It's important with women who come to the shelters that they not be judged, and that their decisions be supported. Abused women typically have problems with self confidence, self esteem, self reliance, etc.

I have worked with abused women and children for more than 30 years. I am a resource and contact for shelter placement. I have never seen a case where a woman has left her children with her abuser. I am not saying that there are none...I have never dealt with one. I also have never encouraged a woman to leave her children behind unless there was a safety concern for them to remain in her custody. Said issue would have to be with the woman in question for me to advise the children being placed elsewhere. I have heard of cases where the threat of danger from the abuser is so great that the children were left with family members out of town until the abuser was arrested and the threat was gone. In this case, I cannot see GP leaving her children with her husband and seeking shelter from the same. It is incongruent.

McSpy
10-10-2011, 05:02 PM
I'm not only interested in how they found out but when did they find out he didn't attend the conference but was spending their time and their dime with TH at another location....JMHO..

To me, it is interesting that he took that chance.
I imagine that his whole staff was watching his every move after they found out his wife was missing. Some may have known or had a feeling he was having an affair with TH prior to Gail's disappearance. I could be wrong on this, but I've worked in offices and rumors do get around sometimes. JMO

McSpy
10-10-2011, 05:12 PM
I've never seen anything indicating where Gail's intent was to go after dropping off the kids.

I'm guessing the assumption was that she would return to the lake house. It would be good to know if she packed a bag and put it in the Jeep when she was down there. The kids probably witnessed it, but at this point they may not remember if she did or not. Was a suitcase and her clothes found in the lake house?

Oriah
10-10-2011, 05:17 PM
I've never seen anything indicating where Gail's intent was to go after dropping off the kids.

Only indication I've found is the pings. And that's certainly not indicative of intent. Just fact-based.

McSpy
10-10-2011, 05:25 PM
I'm not only interested in how they found out but when did they find out he didn't attend the conference but was spending their time and their dime with TH at another location....JMHO..

Do you mean that this conference may have happened before GP was missing?

McSpy
10-10-2011, 05:27 PM
Only indication I've found is the pings. And that's certainly not indicative of intent. Just fact-based.

Has it been reported who was trying to call her?

McSpy
10-10-2011, 05:31 PM
Good question..

Hasn't MP denied ever seeing or speaking to Gail on the 30th? Reason I’m asking I recall seeing something about him being the last person to speak with her, but I can no longer remember where I saw that tidbit of information..

One thing, I find puzzling is IF he has denied ever seeing her or speaking to her on the 30th WHY did he think she went to the lake house in Alabama or WHY did he wait so long to report her as being missing.? After all wasn’t her drivers license, credit cards left behind at the residence?

IMO something is way hinky concerning Matt P...I’m thinking he planned the whole ruse to get Gail to somehow leave her children at the residence

Also, do we know IF GP made a telephone call to SMPD or did she text a message to someone at SMPD telling them she was leaving the children at the residence? JMHO..

BBM This does look hinky. Didn't she just drop off the kids? Did she hang around for a while? Were these items in a wallet?

Emeralgem
10-10-2011, 05:40 PM
Do you mean that this conference may have happened before GP was missing?

My understanding is the conference he didn't bother to attend did indeed occur before Gail disappeared...JMHO..

McSpy
10-10-2011, 05:47 PM
My understanding is the conference he didn't bother to attend did indeed occur before Gail disappeared...JMHO..

hmmmm makes me think the staff came forward with their concerns after GP disappeared. He had a high position, so the underlings may have just kept things to themselves, but after finding out his wife was missing, they came forward with their suspicions. This is all speculation on my part though.

Emeralgem
10-10-2011, 05:58 PM
BBM This does look hinky. Didn't she just drop off the kids? Did she hang around for a while? Were these items in a wallet?

All I know IF she left Alabama and the lake house around 6:30 CST she should have arrived at the residence on Ridgerock around 11:30 EST.. It's about a four hour drive. Granted, she and the children may have stopped for breakfast, gas, bathroom break but she should have arrived home before or around noon. There are claims she left the residence around 12:15 so she couldn't have been there that long before she left...

I realize we have received information she left her drivers license and her credit cards at the house, but I'm still trying to figure out IF by chance she did have her license and credit cards with her when she left the residence at 12:15, how would those items being found back at the house benefit Matt P.. Anyone have any ideas? JMHO..

McSpy
10-10-2011, 05:59 PM
Now, how can anyone NOT be suspicious of this:

Matt Palmgren has not given a statement to detectives, nor have his two children.

http://timesfreepress.com/news/2011/jul/10/two-months-gail-palmgren-went-missing-and-no-signs/