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View Full Version : Conrad Murray trial -Day five.



Soulmagent
10-03-2011, 10:38 AM
Last friday We heard from the ER doctor ,and an EMT so I guess we are getting pretty close to the part where the medical examiner will take the stand. This week I suspect will fly by as we will get to hear from some experts and probably Murrays girls friends shortly after. Or should I say his baby momma?


Hear are the links.

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150211&v=1&libid=1317387045927&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tmz.com%2F&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fuse rcp.php&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20three.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tmz.com%2F&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13173871051031

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150211&v=1&libid=1317387045927&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.myfoxphoenix.com%2Fdpps%2Fnew s%2Fjustice%2Fconrad-murray-michael-jackson-doctor-trial-app_15219744&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fuse rcp.php&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20three.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.myfoxphoenix.com%2Fdpps%2Fnew ...l-app_15219744&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13173871342772

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150211&v=1&libid=1317387045927&out=http%3A%2F%2Fnewstaar.com%2Fwatch-streaming-live-video-dr-conrad-murray-trial-in-michael-jackson-doctor-case-%25e2%2580%2593-opening-statement-as-trial-begins-today%2F354326%2F&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fuse rcp.php&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20three.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fnewstaar.com%2Fwatch-streaming-...-today%2F354326%2F&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13173871808373

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150211&v=1&libid=1317387045927&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.click2houston.com%2Fvideo%2F2 9313639%2Findex.html&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fuse rcp.php&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20three.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.click2houston.com%2Fvideo%2F2 9313639%2Findex.html&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13173871975894
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150211&v=1&libid=1317387045927&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2Fvideo%2F&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fuse rcp.php&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20three.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2Fvideo%2F&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13173872142345
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150211&v=1&libid=1317387045927&out=http%3A%2F%2Fmajicatl.com%2Fvideos%2Fmajicatl% 2Fwatch-the-conrad-murray-michael-jackson-death-trial-here-live-stream%2F&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fuse rcp.php&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20three.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fmajicatl.com%2Fvideos%2Fmajicatl% 2F...e-live-stream%2F&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13173872342816

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150211&v=1&libid=1317387045927&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2Fvideo%2FflashLive%2 Flive.html%3Fstream%3D1&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fuse rcp.php&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20three.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2Fvideo%2FflashLive%2 Flive.html%3Fstream%3D1&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13173872599837

Thundar
10-03-2011, 11:50 AM
Well here we go. The ER doctor from last week is still on. Sounds like the defense is questioning her.

nope prosecutor

Dr.Fessel
10-03-2011, 11:58 AM
Well here we go. The ER doctor from last week is still on. Sounds like the defense is questioning her.

nope prosecutor

She looks like the lady from Sex in the City.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 12:03 PM
Prosecutor just asked this ER Dr. if she noticed the condom catheter attached to the patient. And she said yes, and then explained the uses for a condom catheter. Asked if she found it odd to find a condom catheter on a patient coming from a home setting. She said yes in a round about way.

BOZGAL
10-03-2011, 12:04 PM
Good Afternoon one and all :seeya:

We are going to start seeing the main course this week with the case.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 12:06 PM
She went to check on the children after calling MJ dead. They were fairly hysterical. Being taken care of by someone referred to as their nurse.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 12:13 PM
Defense is talking around in circles. I can't figure out what they are trying to get the Dr. to say. Asking her about the call in the field to pronounce, and how it hadn't changed when they got to the hospital.

Asking her if she became an anethesialogist(sp). And what certs a Dr. need to administer prophefol(sp).

2goaliemom
10-03-2011, 12:17 PM
Beyond the scope for this witness. Flanagan heading nowhere with this witness!

Thundar
10-03-2011, 12:18 PM
Defense asking her about conscious sedation and procedural sedation. The difference in certification. She won't answer on the differences. The defense is stuck on conscious sedation and she says that is an oxymoron.

Asking her about her use of prophefol(sp). She is certified in procedural sedation. She does not work in a surgery situation but only emergency room.

I bet she never figured she would be in court in a high profile case like this.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 12:21 PM
The Dr. just said that 25 mgs of prohefol(sp) would probably not achieve sedation and would wear off in about 10 minutes.

It would appear that defense is trying to use this prosecution witness as an expert witness on prophefol(sp). Who does this remind me of???

Talina
10-03-2011, 12:24 PM
Cross examine asks "why would you ask what medications had been given?" say what???

Soulmagent
10-03-2011, 12:25 PM
She is running thoughts though her head about all the causes that would leave a 50 yr old dead so she can determine treatment at the time she was asking Dr. Murray questions.

She is getting frustrated.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 12:28 PM
Badgering witness about the time Lorazapam(sp) was given, about why she didn't ask about the time the medication was given. Asking about different times going into the system and the affect on the patient.

Defense just said, "We are not communicating very well here." He has asked the same question about five different ways about the time and half life and wearing out of the system. Asking about different times and any Lorazapam still being in the blood stream.

She finally just said she is not qualified to answer that question. Moving on to prophefol(sp).

Talina
10-03-2011, 12:28 PM
I get the impression Flanagan is trying to get her all tripped up with her testimony and instead, to me, he is making himself look terrible.

Soulmagent
10-03-2011, 12:29 PM
procudure sedation at 135 pounds 1 milligram per kilo gram would be Richelle's starting dose.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 12:32 PM
Woops, even knowing about the prophefol(sp) would not have changed the treatment or outcome. MJ was dead long before he became her patient. Defense still on the witness about asking about medication.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 12:34 PM
Sidebar again. I would rather watch the lawyers up by the judge than a closeup of Murray.

Isabelle
10-03-2011, 12:35 PM
I get the impression Flanagan is trying to get her all tripped up with her testimony and instead, to me, he is making himself look terrible.

Yes he is making himself look terrible. He is going to be sorry when she give him what he's asking for and it's gonna bite Murray in the a.s! The ER Doc knows that lorazepam was given prior to ems arrival, obviously, and prior to the time ems was called. Reversal agents at the time of ems arrival or body arrival at the ER would have been useless, as the patient was dead, no heart rhythm, no reps. Flanagan is not medically very bright! The one case involving Propofol that he defended does not make him an expert by any means. A fool, in my opinion.

Soulmagent
10-03-2011, 12:35 PM
12 57 is when She wanted to call TOD on MJ over the dispatch. Per headline news.


At that point he was her patient. So long before means what exactly?

Isabelle
10-03-2011, 12:37 PM
Flanagan is gonna pi.. her off and he is gonna be sorry!

Thundar
10-03-2011, 12:38 PM
OMG, defense wanted to know if she had talked to Murray during treatment. She said multiple brief conversations. Defense then asked how many are multiple, and how brief. Defense just asked I want particulars and you just aren't capable of precise answers, correct. I would be upset to say the least if I was this witness.

Talina
10-03-2011, 12:40 PM
Wow, she is looking to me like she is getting very mad at this attorney. Her eyes are widening and her mouth is getting firm. I'd be not taking this well if I were sitting on the jury.

Isabelle
10-03-2011, 12:41 PM
Defense doesn't have a copy of the ER note?? Good job!

Thundar
10-03-2011, 12:42 PM
Wow, she is looking to me like she is getting very mad at this attorney. Her eyes are widening and her mouth is getting firm. I'd be not taking this well if I were sitting on the jury.

Would you be upset at the witness or defense? I would be upset with defense, but I don't suffer fools graciously.

Soulmagent
10-03-2011, 12:42 PM
Realy why didnt the defence just wanna show her their copy of her report?


I bet he wasnt asking her to say show it to me. Glad she pulled herself together.

At first I was upset with her because she didnt know the halflife of Lorazopam Really that the top 200 meaning most people in the medical feild have to know all about the top 200 prescribed drug and their generics.

Then I was back to being iffy on the defence ,then i went over iffy to annoyedat the defence when she asked for the paper and he acted like that was to much for him. Like she is supposed to remember what she wrote word for word in 2009.

I think they are tied in likability in the low numbers.

Isabelle
10-03-2011, 12:42 PM
Wow, she is looking to me like she is getting very mad at this attorney. Her eyes are widening and her mouth is getting firm. I'd be not taking this well if I were sitting on the jury.

He is clearly badgering her. The payoff for this won't be good.

21merc7
10-03-2011, 12:42 PM
Thanks for the updates everyone! Boss is here, cannot watch. :tyou: Keep them coming, it is driving me batty not to be able to see or hear it, lol!

Talina
10-03-2011, 12:43 PM
Would you be upset at the witness or defense? I would be upset with defense, but I don't suffer fools graciously.

Yes, I meant I would be upset with the defense. There is no reason for him to be badgering this witness, IMO.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 12:45 PM
Defense was going to read her ER notes to her. Defense said, "I can't read you writting, can I approach the witness."

She read off what he asked her to and then took the notes away. Now he is turning pages to find the date it was written.

Why didn't he just find another copy, or here's a question, have one for her to use during this questioning?

Thundar
10-03-2011, 12:47 PM
Defense asked witness if they had taken patient's temperature. Witness said at some point we would have done that.

I would assume she was too busy trying to save a life.

Defense asked if this would help determine death. I didn't catch what the witness said.

Talina
10-03-2011, 12:47 PM
Oh for pete's sake. Defense atty just asked her if taking his temp would have told her the cause or time of death. The cause of death? He is sounding like a buffoon to me.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 12:50 PM
Defense, "you performed and hour and fifteen minutes of resusitation at the medical center, would you have done the same if the patient was other than Michael Jackson?" (not perfect translation but close)?

Witness replied no, standard procedure no matter who.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 12:55 PM
Defense just asked about the condom catheter and if there was any urine visable. Witness said no urine. Then asked if they would have taken the urine for testing. Witness said yes.

Defense is finally done for now.

Isabelle
10-03-2011, 12:56 PM
Would like the PT to ask Dr. Cooper her opinion on Dr. Murray not being completely truthful about what was given to MJ!

Thundar
10-03-2011, 12:57 PM
Prosecuter clearing up the misconceptions the defense caused. Murray made no mention of prophefol(sp) to the witness.

Isabelle
10-03-2011, 12:59 PM
OT: Dr. Cooper's hair is very pretty today. The color, hi-lights suit her well.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 12:59 PM
Prosecutor going through all the machines used to monitor phrophefol(sp) use. A long list of monitoring equipment and a nurse to monitor.

Prosecutor done, defense just has to have another go.

mysteriew
10-03-2011, 01:00 PM
Yes he is making himself look terrible. He is going to be sorry when she give him what he's asking for and it's gonna bite Murray in the a.s! The ER Doc knows that lorazepam was given prior to ems arrival, obviously, and prior to the time ems was called. Reversal agents at the time of ems arrival or body arrival at the ER would have been useless, as the patient was dead, no heart rhythm, no reps. Flanagan is not medically very bright! The one case involving Propofol that he defended does not make him an expert by any means. A fool, in my opinion.


OMG, defense wanted to know if she had talked to Murray during treatment. She said multiple brief conversations. Defense then asked how many are multiple, and how brief. Defense just asked I want particulars and you just aren't capable of precise answers, correct. I would be upset to say the least if I was this witness.

What he is trying to do here is to split the guilt. If he can make her look like she is the slightest bit incompetent or that the treatment may have been in the least inadequate he can mitigate his client's guilt somewhat. So the question about what time she talked to Dr. or how often she talked to him is very unfair.

I've been in codes. They record times when treatment was given. But things are so tense and moving so rapidly that any extraneous activity barely gets noticed and definitely they don't know what time it happened.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 01:02 PM
Defense is hanging his own client. Winess says prophefol(sp) over a minute minute and a half is normal.

Isabelle
10-03-2011, 01:05 PM
Mr. Flanagan, the Residents would have read the literature on this medication and they would have knowledge of how to handle this drug, unlike your client, Dr. Murray.

Isabelle
10-03-2011, 01:13 PM
Yes, Flanagan, you could see a problem developing if you stayed with the patient!

Isabelle
10-03-2011, 01:20 PM
Opens door for PT to ask MD if she would give Propofol without monitoring the patient electronically. The MD would give a resounding NO!

2goaliemom
10-03-2011, 01:20 PM
OMG finally! This poor ER doc. Flanagan is irritating (he almost seemed like he was under the influence of something)

HatesSociopaths
10-03-2011, 01:20 PM
I think the judge sustaining those objections and even clarifying them was huge for the prosecution. He indicated that the hospital doctor does not have to answer that hypothetical question because it assumes she would administer propofol without the precautionary measures she always takes, and in my mind it said that CM was reckless with the way he did it. That's a big deal to me when it comes from the judge. MOO.

Isabelle
10-03-2011, 01:22 PM
OMG finally! This poor ER doc. Flanagan is irritating (he almost seemed like he was under the influence of something)

Under the influence of 'stupid'!

KariKae
10-03-2011, 01:22 PM
The Dr. just said that 25 mgs of prohefol(sp) would probably not achieve sedation and would wear off in about 10 minutes.

It would appear that defense is trying to use this prosecution witness as an expert witness on prophefol(sp). Who does this remind me of???

Has the defense established that she is not a chemist??

borndem
10-03-2011, 01:34 PM
Beyond the scope for this witness. Flanagan heading nowhere with this witness!

I wonder if Murray is feeding him questions to ask.

The ER Doc seems very intelligent, sharp, capable (I'm impressed, IOW) and cool enuff not to let this man fluster her. She's been in court before, methinks(!). She has had special training & is authorized to administer propofol in the ER for anesthetizing for quick, surgical procedures there -- where they have & use all the necessary monitors, personnel, and any recovery procedures, which the good DrM did not use at MJ's house, altho he had some equipment in the closet...

This is not helping the doc one itty bit....

borndem
10-03-2011, 01:40 PM
I get the impression Flanagan is trying to get her all tripped up with her testimony and instead, to me, he is making himself look terrible.

Spot-on, Talina. I may be wrong, but I think she is trying not to look at him as if he were stupid.

Sustained, sustained, sustained, sustained, sustained, sustained, sustained, sustained.

Talina
10-03-2011, 01:44 PM
Sunny Hostin just drives me batty most of the time. She is saying on InSessions that thinks the defense was somewhat effective making Dr. Cooper a witness for their line of defense. I don't think she was watching the same testimony and cross examination I was watching.

peace9274
10-03-2011, 01:44 PM
She was asked by defense: "Would you be aware of the patient's labored breathing or slowed pulse, if there were no monitors?"

What a stupid question! The doc must focus on the procedure, which may be on the patient's chest or the back of his head,
or bottom of his foot... and won't be focusing on the resperations.... THUS the reason for other staff and monitors in the ER!!!!

(I'm a nurse & have worked in the Emer Dept. Dr Cooper did an excellent job on the stand... and I'd say in the ER also.)

BOZGAL
10-03-2011, 01:48 PM
Edward Dixon from AT&T :woohoo:

Talina
10-03-2011, 01:48 PM
Edward Dixon from AT&T on the stand now.

Talina
10-03-2011, 01:50 PM
73 pages of records of Dr. Murray's cell phone records were reviewed by Mr. Dixon. Sounds like from January 2009 til some later date that they have not yet stated.

Talina
10-03-2011, 01:55 PM
No specific testimony as of yet. They are just describing the type of information that is shown on the data report.

Amity
10-03-2011, 01:59 PM
TOTALLY O.T.

Thank you ALL For the UPdates so far......SO very much appreciated!

I was here, then not, then here, then running around doing household duty/wifey stuff.
Hopefully all is taken care of and I can spend the rest of the day folding clothes, reading all your posts and watching the stream online.

I totally missed all of the doctor's testimony this morning but thanks to all of you, I think I'm pretty well caught up.

I know I'm hooked as much as I swore it wouldn't happen again, but I did 11 large loads of clothes all day yesterday and didn't fold a single thing....just piled the clean clothes on the couch so that I can fold as I follow along.
At least it will look like I'm doing something should anyone wonder why I'm sitting in the same place for so many hours. *giggles*

Now, on with the trial! :)

Talina
10-03-2011, 02:08 PM
Prosecution just went through quite a few phone calls outgoing and incoming for the morning and afternoon of June 25 but did not identify who those numbers belong to yet. Now going over another part of the report, the pages that identify data usage (sounds like text messaging or other types of data usage).

Thundar
10-03-2011, 02:13 PM
It's the younger defense attorney.

Asked about identifying the person using the phone. Hello?

AT&T doesn't save any text messages. I always thought you could get them from the phone company. I didn't realize anything went away.

Talina
10-03-2011, 02:14 PM
Well...other than getting his phone records into evidence and explaining what the records show, that was all for the prosecution.

Now, defense up saying "you've identified as to this account belonging to Conrad Murray you have no way of knowing who was actually using that phone do you?"

Oh, please.

Talina
10-03-2011, 02:26 PM
Well that was a befuddled cross...defense would ask a question, started asking questions about records other than AT&T records...then appeared to get themselves confused and moved on to a different question, then misstated testimony - got sustained. Asked a couple of more inconsequential (to me) questions and let witness go. Then upon Chernoff asking more questions now asking if certain phone calls were answered or went to voice mail. Mr. Dixon is unable to specifically identify whether or not certain calls went to voice mail or not. Now redirect.

2goaliemom
10-03-2011, 02:28 PM
Now, probably the Sprint representative

Thundar
10-03-2011, 02:29 PM
That testimony really was a non-testimony as far as I could tell. You really can't tell anything from that testimony except the times Murray's phone was in use and of course the defense proved you can't tell for sure it was Murry using the phone.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 02:30 PM
Now, probably the Sprint representative

Not just Sprint but Sprint/Nextel.

Talina
10-03-2011, 02:30 PM
Redirect only dealt with some clarification and to correct a typographical error on their exhibit. No recross. Witness excused.

Next up - Jeff Strohm with Sprint/Nextel

Thundar
10-03-2011, 02:35 PM
I like this witness. He has a nice voice for explaining Sprint?Nextel phone bills. Who's phone number is this that they are explaining use on. I thought the AT&T one was Murray's.

BOZGAL
10-03-2011, 02:35 PM
Will be interesting when the jury looks all those records over from that morning.
:shakehead:

Talina
10-03-2011, 02:38 PM
Well...this Sprint/Nextel was Conrad Murray. I guess he had 2 (at least so far) cell phone with two different providers.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 02:40 PM
Well...this Sprint/Nextel was Conrad Murray. I guess he had 2 (at least so far) cell phone with two different providers.

This I think might be the phone that texted Murray and the times they texted back and forth. Because on that highlighted in yellow chart had a name that looked like Conrad as a receiving phone.

Talina
10-03-2011, 02:42 PM
This I think might be the phone that texted Murray and the times they texted back and forth. Because on that highlighted in yellow chart had a name that looked like Conrad as a receiving phone.

When prosecution asked Mr. Strohm who this number belonged to of these records, he said Conrad Murray so that sounds like to me he is the subscriber to this Nextel/Sprint phone. I could have heard that wrong.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 02:44 PM
When prosecution asked Mr. Strohm who this number belonged to of these records, he said Conrad Murray so that sounds like to me he is the subscriber to this Nextel/Sprint phone. I could have heard that wrong.

But on this Sprint/Nextel phone they only have certain numbers highlighted. And they just asked if they could tell if that call was answered by Murray. So the call started on this number and went to Murray. That's what I am getting out of this.

Soulmagent
10-03-2011, 02:44 PM
1020 am call 111 seconds.
1034 am 8 1/2 minutes
1126 am out 7 seconds
108 pm out 2 minutes.

Dr Murrays sprint nextel phone.

checked Murrays in and out calls no way to tell if they were answered or not.

Talina
10-03-2011, 02:45 PM
Witness excused.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 02:46 PM
1020 am call 111 seconds.
1034 am 8 1/2 minutes
1126 am out 7 seconds
108 pm out 2 minutes.

Dr Murrays sprint nextel phone.

Thanks, so who's was the other AT&T phone?

I hope they explain this sometime better. I hope the jury isn't as confused with these records as I am.

Talina
10-03-2011, 02:47 PM
But on this Sprint/Nextel phone they only have certain numbers highlighted. And they just asked if they could tell if that call was answered by Murray. So the call started on this number and went to Murray. That's what I am getting out of this.

There were quite a few initiated by this number too and the name below was Conrad Murray. The calls initiated by other numbers and received by this number had Conrad Murray as the receiver to this number. I think this was his number.

Talina
10-03-2011, 02:47 PM
Thanks, so who's was the other AT&T phone?

The AT&T number was also Dr. Murray.

Soulmagent
10-03-2011, 02:48 PM
Thanks, so who's was the other AT&T phone?

I hope they explain this sometime better. I hope the jury isn't as confused with these records as I am.

He had two phones. Sprint and an I phone.

Talina
10-03-2011, 02:50 PM
Thanks, so who's was the other AT&T phone?

I hope they explain this sometime better. I hope the jury isn't as confused with these records as I am.

Well I suppose one explanation is that he has two cell phones. I've known people that do that so for various reasons, one for business one for personal as an example.

Another explanation could be that Dr. Murray has gotten a phone for someone else under his name ( a girlfriend perhaps) and that is who was using the other phone but the account was in his name. I'm sure this will be cleared up later in testimony.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 02:51 PM
He had two phones. Sprint and an I phone.

Well no wonder he only had time for one patient. And he shortchanged that patient too.

Talina
10-03-2011, 02:51 PM
UCLA Cardiologist on stand now. Dr.Nguyen

Soulmagent
10-03-2011, 02:56 PM
In interduced himself as MJ private doctor to the winess

Witness states ,,,

Murray told her he had been very tired ,he replied Avaitan IV when asked if he had given micheal any medican.

What time was the Ativan given he didnt know.
next he said he left and when he came back MJ wasnt breathing and he wasnt able to tell the doctor the time when he noticed he wasnt breathing.

She said he said he had no idea about time he wasnt good with time.(what?)

Talina
10-03-2011, 02:57 PM
When Dr. Nguyen got to the trauma room, Dr. Murray introduced himself to her as Mr. Jackson's private physician. When she asked what had happened, he told her Mr. Jackson was rehearsing for a tour was very tired and had been asking him for help sleeping. He told her had given 4 milligrams of ativan (sp) intravenously (another name for Lorazepam (sp)) and he told her he had given no other med. The cardiologist asked what time and he couldn't remember. He told her that he left briefly and he went back and the patient was not breathing. She asked him what time was that and he said he did not know. She asked him from the time he noticed the patient was down from the time EMS was called how much time and he said he did not know.

ETA: Dr. Nyugen testified that Dr. Murray told her he did not have a watch and had no concept of time.

Talina
10-03-2011, 02:59 PM
Dr. Murray said he had not given MJ any other medication.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 03:02 PM
When Dr. Nguyen got to the trauma room, Dr. Murray introduced himself to her as Mr. Jackson's private physician. When she asked what had happened, he told her Mr. Jackson was rehearsing for a tour was very tired and had been asking him for help sleeping. He told her had given 4 milligrams of ativan (sp) intravenously (another name for Lorazepam (sp)) and he told her he had given no other med. The cardiologist asked what time and he couldn't remember. He told her that he left briefly and he went back and the patient was not breathing. She asked him what time was that and he said he did not know. She asked him from the time he noticed the patient was down from the time EMS was called how much time and he said he did not know.

That really looks bad for Murray. Yes mam I am Mr. Jackson's personal physician, I was there with him, no mam I have no concept of time or drug amounts.

Talina
10-03-2011, 03:02 PM
Dr. Nyugen "it was not a matter of too little, too late. It was a matter of too late." She said she was very concerned that Dr. Murray could not give any specific time intervals of anything she asked regarding medication or how long MJ had been down before he called EMS.

Noon recess.

Talina
10-03-2011, 03:04 PM
That really looks bad for Murray. Yes mam I am Mr. Jackson's personal physician, I was there with him, no mam I have no concept of time or drug amounts.

I totally agree with that.

ETA: I wonder how it is that when he was giving his statements later to detectives that he seemed to then be able to recall some specific times that he administered various medications.

HatesSociopaths
10-03-2011, 03:06 PM
Biggest thing to me is he didn't tell her about the propofol.

borndem
10-03-2011, 03:07 PM
Defense just asked about the condom catheter and if there was any urine visable. Witness said no urine. Then asked if they would have taken the urine for testing. Witness said yes.

Defense is finally done for now.


Somebody needs to get this poor man out from under the bus under which he has just thrown himself.....:boohoo:

Thundar
10-03-2011, 03:09 PM
I totally agree with that.

ETA: I wonder how it is that when he was giving his statements later to detectives that he seemed to then be able to recall some specific times that he administered various medications.

Maybe he looked at his cell phone bills and went for the time between calls and texts.

21merc7
10-03-2011, 03:12 PM
Why didn't he tell them about the propofol? His patient was dead, it was going to become common knowledge, soon. Why did he not think critically, to tell a more experienced doctor in the moment he noticed, by calling 911? The EMT's, what did he tell them he gave MJ, the lorazepam? No times recalled?

I know the answers to all of these questions, he was trying to cover his behind. The jurors must be thinking the same things. Great time for a lunch break, leave them thinking about all of these things and the statement "it was too late." Not a good day for Dr. Murray.

Thank you again, and again, for keeping us posted everyone! :blowkiss:

Soulmagent
10-03-2011, 03:13 PM
Somebody needs to get this poor man out from under the bus under which he has just thrown himself.....:boohoo:

Not me ,he owns the bus. Built it with his own hands. If he wants to park it on hisself ,who am i to stop him.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 03:15 PM
Biggest thing to me is he didn't tell her about the propofol.

Did he tell anyone at any time about the propofol? Or did he admit it after he was confronted with the blood test findings from the autopsy? I have only half followed this until the trial started.

borndem
10-03-2011, 03:15 PM
What he is trying to do here is to split the guilt. If he can make her look like she is the slightest bit incompetent or that the treatment may have been in the least inadequate he can mitigate his client's guilt somewhat. So the question about what time she talked to Dr. or how often she talked to him is very unfair.

I've been in codes. They record times when treatment was given. But things are so tense and moving so rapidly that any extraneous activity barely gets noticed and definitely they don't know what time it happened.

bbm It's not working too good so far!!!!!!!http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif And the good doc is having none of it...

rbm ITA -- he's hoping most folks wouldn't think about that aspect. (That probably won't work too good, either!!!!!http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon6.gif )

borndem
10-03-2011, 03:26 PM
Under the influence of 'stupid'!

And obviously this near-overdose of stupid was administered by our own Dr. Murray, and without proper monitoring or resuscitation equipment....

2goaliemom
10-03-2011, 03:26 PM
Did he tell anyone at any time about the propofol? Or did he admit it after he was confronted with the blood test findings from the autopsy? I have only half followed this until the trial started.

I don't think Propofol was mentioned until 2 days later when he was interviewed (with his attorney) by LE--that's when he gives more detail about what was given to MJ on the 25th.

Allegedly given rather--what Murray says he gave MJ and the autopsy do not match.

HatesSociopaths
10-03-2011, 03:29 PM
I don't think Propofol was mentioned until 2 days later when he was interviewed (with his attorney) by LE--that's when he gives more detail about what was given to MJ on the 25th.

Was he giving more detail because he was confronted with evidence that Propofol was given, or was this a sudden streak of honesty?

Thundar
10-03-2011, 03:32 PM
I don't think Propofol was mentioned until 2 days later when he was interviewed (with his attorney) by LE--that's when he gives more detail about what was given to MJ on the 25th.

So if he would had told the Er Drs about the propofol use would he have been detained at the hospital at that time? He left the hospital and thought about it, got a lawyer, and only then admitted what he had administered to his now dead patient? I suppose the lawyer explained that they would find the propofol in the autopsy anyway so he might as well admit it.

Strange, strange timing. Telling the emts that he felt a pulse so MJ would get transferred to the ER. Then being a presence in the Er but not really stepping forward and being a DR. Then hiking out of the hospital as soon as possible.

borndem
10-03-2011, 03:45 PM
In interduced himself as MJ private doctor to the winess

Witness states ,,,

Murray told her he had been very tired ,he replied Avaitan IV when asked if he had given micheal any medican.

What time was the Ativan given he didnt know.
next he said he left and when he came back MJ wasnt breathing and he wasnt able to tell the doctor the time when he noticed he wasnt breathing.

She said he said he had no idea about time he wasnt good with time.(what?)

Yes, in-dayam-deedy, he wasn't too good with time. ... He sure let little MJ down -- yes, Mouseketeers, he's earning that $150K/month, huh?

And that one statement may be the first time he's told the truth.

How did MJ survive with this MD as long as he did??? Arrrrrggghhhh!http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon8.gif:maddening:

borndem
10-03-2011, 03:51 PM
Dr. Murray said he had not given MJ any other medication.

:liar: : :liar: : :liar: : :liar: : :liar: : :liar:

Somebody bring a bucket of water, quickly!!! The Doctor's pants are on fire!!!:furious:

Talina
10-03-2011, 04:10 PM
Was he giving more detail because he was confronted with evidence that Propofol was given, or was this a sudden streak of honesty?

I've wondered the very same thing. I didn't follow this in the news as it was happening so I have no idea as to the timing of the admission of the drugs he gave versus the timing of the toxicology report.

CarolinaMoon
10-03-2011, 04:27 PM
I hope that we get to the people who talked to Dr. Murray in the critical times soon. I also wonder if their phone records will be introduced prior to their testimony.

Talina
10-03-2011, 04:44 PM
LOL I know this is not comic relief at all but I am getting tickled by the testimony on the cross examination between Dr. Nguyen and Mr. Flanagan. He asks a question and she elaborates more than the exact question and it is not good in his favor at all.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 04:46 PM
The lady doctor is back (the second one). The white haired defense is asking about standard dosing for different drugs. Witness keeps getting in what happens after a person builds up tolerance to a certain drug after answering what a common dose is for certain medications.

Talina
10-03-2011, 04:49 PM
Dr. Nguyen said that while a larger dose might be required (ativan) if a patient has used it and builds up a tolerance, that while the tolerance build up requires a stronger does to get the results desired, the tolerance level of other bodily organs that will have an adverse reaction do not build up a tolerance so you have to be careful with the dosage being increased.(paraphrasing)

She has also said that ativan is not a typical drug used to treat insomnia and she'd never give it in an outpatient setting.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 04:50 PM
LOL I know this is not comic relief at all but I am getting tickled by the testimony on the cross examination between Dr. Nguyen and Mr. Flanagan. He asks a question and she elaborates more than the exact question and it is not good in his favor at all.

I don't think anyone puts anything over on this lady. She seems like she knows her stuff.

BOZGAL
10-03-2011, 04:52 PM
This DR is sharp and is educating this attorney.
He needs to step back and clean off his shoes.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 04:54 PM
All of a sudden defense went from avidan to propofol in his questions. He wanted to know if there was slurred speech with propofol. Witness said yes there is until the patient is ready for a procedure.

Soulmagent
10-03-2011, 04:56 PM
Murray looked desperate and seemed devastated.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 05:00 PM
Defense asking about Dr. talking to Murray in the ER. Got her to say Murray was devastated.

Now asking about treatment and any pulse. Dr. Cooper told her there was no pulse. Did she tell you that she wanted to call it at the patients home. Witness found that out later.

When witness was informed of patient she thought he was relivable. But there was no pulse when she got there.

Talking about a balloon pump now. Indications for use. In this case there should not have been indications for this but Murray encouraged them to use it. Gave him the benefit of the doubt and used it.

Now defense is asking if no pulse for minutes or hours make a difference in treatment.

Paraphrased every last word.....

Talina
10-03-2011, 05:00 PM
Wonder why Dr. Nguyen is testifying to what Dr. Murray said to Dr. Cruz. I don't see Dr. Cruz on the prosecution witness list I was looking at earlier.

Soulmagent
10-03-2011, 05:00 PM
Hearsay isnt it? How would she know what was said between doctor cruise and dr murray.

Objection, I object. !!

BOZGAL
10-03-2011, 05:02 PM
Keep on messing with this DR and see what happens. :shakehead:

2goaliemom
10-03-2011, 05:05 PM
Was he giving more detail because he was confronted with evidence that Propofol was given, or was this a sudden streak of honesty?

IMO he consulted with attorneys during the two days lapse between when MJ passed and the time of Murray's statement to LE in order to create cover for the drugs he did give MJ. He had to admit to giving MJ Propofol because it would show up on the autopsy (not yet released). Here is the Texas search warrant issued for Murray's office. The Texas LE officer refers to Det. Martinez' affidavit in the CA search warrants and refers to what Murray told them during the interview. Page 3 and 4 is what Murray admitted he gave MJ on June 25th. CYA was the plan IMO.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/08/24/murray.search.warrant.affadavits.pdf

Thundar
10-03-2011, 05:05 PM
Defense keeps going on and on about the treatment MJ received in the ER. This is only making their client look worse and worse for not getting MJ there earlier.

Why is defense making such a big deal about this balloon pump? It was just another tool in trying to bring life back where there was none.

Soulmagent
10-03-2011, 05:06 PM
I really like this witness .

Except she just said a few minutes ago she was involved in the decsission to try the ballon pump. She said it was Murray and Cruise who made that call. I still like her I dont think anyone noticed but me.

Bttrcookie3
10-03-2011, 05:07 PM
I really like this Dr. Nguyen. Just something about her. She is very sharp!

CarolinaMoon
10-03-2011, 05:07 PM
I loved her use of the term "desired miraculous effect"! Flannagan manages to speak to her and others with a tone of voice that sounds like he is accusing them of being incompetent. Didn't work here, and hasn't worked so far with these medical professionals.

Talina
10-03-2011, 05:12 PM
I really like this witness .

Except she just said a few minutes ago she was involved in the decsission to try the ballon pump. She said it was Murray and Cruise who made that call. I still like her I dont think anyone noticed but me.

I believe (and I think she later clarified what she meant) was that the decision was that the balloon pump was going to be the last effort and that was what the agreement was, not the decision to actually use the pump. But, instead that the pump, if unsuccessful, would be the last procedure and then time of death would be called. That was the decision agreement, IMO.

ETA: here's what I think the decision was: Dr.Cruz decided to try the pump, then said we are going to do this but does everyone here agree, including you Dr. Murray, that if this doesn't work, we call time of death. Then the collective agreement was made they all agreed.

Soulmagent
10-03-2011, 05:14 PM
I loved her use of the term "desired miraculous effect"! Flannagan manages to speak to her and others with a tone of voice that sounds like he is accusing them of being incompetent. Didn't work here, and hasn't worked so far with these medical professionals.

I guess he hasnt defended many cases where the experts are from UCLA..

And he also doesnt seem to know how to ask questions of smart people.

He needs to ask the time limits before the drug would no longer be an option.

Beaz would have gotten that ...

Thundar
10-03-2011, 05:17 PM
Defense asked about a dose of adivan and if it should cause distress in a patient. Now lady Dr. is giving a speech about how it's used and in what conditions. Defense just admitted they got lost in the answer.

Lady Dr. has a lift to her voice at the end of a sentence when she just can't believe what defense has asked her.

Back to orally or iv adivan use. Uses adivan for procedures and no other use.

Talina
10-03-2011, 05:18 PM
REdirect now. I do believe the good Dr. Nguyen wore out Flanagan.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 05:23 PM
After witness explained why propofol and avidan is used and how.
Witness, that's why there is always a crash cart. Prosecutor just asked what's on a crash cart.

Pointing out again what was missing from those pictures of MJs bedroom hospital.

Talina
10-03-2011, 05:23 PM
Oh...bad for Dr. Murray. On redirect Dr. Nguyen states profofol is not only used just in hospital setting but not in a normal room but always in either ICU or procedural room and always with an anesthesiologist and crash cart. She testified that a person can have a dangerous threshold to where the lungs quit workin properly (my words) even before the desired sedation effect of the profofol happens. So it is very important to have an anesthesiologist do be able to properly handle a bad situation. (mostly paraphrasing here but very bad testimony for Dr. Murray IMO)

CarolinaMoon
10-03-2011, 05:24 PM
She is now pointing out all the situations Dr. Murray, with his Mickey Mouse set-up never considered. Dr. Nguyen sounds a bit angry that a fellow cardiologist let his patient down.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 05:24 PM
Defense is redirecting about propofol now. Asked witness if she had ever used propofol on her own, she said no.

They just don't know when to quit.

Talina
10-03-2011, 05:26 PM
Flanagan is back to conscious sedation. I agree with Dr. Cooper..that's an oxymoron.

2goaliemom
10-03-2011, 05:27 PM
Flanagan's not doing himself any favors. He's not making any points and he seems like he's harrassing this witness--sit down and shut up!

Thundar
10-03-2011, 05:31 PM
CNN just went to an empty courtroom. what's up with that?

Talina
10-03-2011, 05:31 PM
Flanagan best be careful the way he keeps pushing this "conscious sedation". By what I am reading on the below link, his client followed nothing of the precautions that is listed.

http://www.aana.com/ForPatients.aspx?id=298

Questions to Ask About Conscious Sedation
The following is a list of questions patients should ask prior to the surgical or diagnostic procedure:

Will a trained and skilled provider be dedicated to monitoring me during conscious sedation?
Will my provider monitor my breathing, heart rate and blood pressure?
Will oxygen be available and will the oxygen content of my blood be monitored?
Are personnel trained to perform advanced cardiac life support?
Is emergency resuscitation equipment available on-site and immediately accessible in the event of an emergency?
Will a trained and skilled provider stay with me during my recovery period and for how long?
Should a friend or family member take me home?

CarolinaMoon
10-03-2011, 05:31 PM
Flanagan is back to conscious sedation. I agree with Dr. Cooper..that's an oxymoron.

I've had eye surgery with conscious sedation. I was rendered unconscious with propofol (Sp?) while they used novicane to numb the area to be operated on. Then, when I woke up, I was feeling no pain in the area being operated on, but I could feel and talk to the doctor. I had enough sedative in my body to keep me VERY relaxed, but alert enough to warn the surgeon when I might sneeze.

Talina
10-03-2011, 05:36 PM
Flanagan asking her if she is aware dentists use profofol. She says no, she is not aware of that. He presses that giving the impression this is common practice for dentists to use. I just looked up and this is what I found (Flanagan best tread lightly here, I'm thinking):

http://dentistry.about.com/b/2009/08/23/the-american-association-of-oral-and-maxillofacial-surgeons-position-on-diprivan-propofol.htm

According to their website, the American Association of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons (AAOMS) and its 8,500 fellows and members who are licensed to practice oral and maxillofacial surgery in the United States, support the position of the American Society of Anesthesiologists, which states that:

“. . . Diprivan, or its generic name propofol, is a drug meant only for use in a medical setting by professionals trained in the provision of general anesthesia. Though the drug is often used for procedures requiring sedation, patients can have extremely variable responses to the drug and some patients can become completely anesthetized, including losing the ability to breathe. Diprivan should never be used outside of a controlled and monitored medical setting."

Thundar
10-03-2011, 05:36 PM
On CNN one must need to refreash the entire page every once in a while.

I missed the end of defense's recross. Anything good I missed.

Talina
10-03-2011, 05:37 PM
I've had eye surgery with conscious sedation. I was rendered unconscious with propofol (Sp?) while they used novicane to numb the area to be operated on. Then, when I woke up, I was feeling no pain in the area being operated on, but I could feel and talk to the doctor. I had enough sedative in my body to keep me VERY relaxed, but alert enough to warn the surgeon when I might sneeze.

Yes, I agree that is a medical term. I just agree with what Dr. Murray said when she was asked about that term. Conscious Sedation is a contradiction.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 05:52 PM
How does this Dr. from Texas fit into anything. There was one phone call she made to Murray at 10:20 was that on the 25th?

Thundar
10-03-2011, 05:53 PM
15 or 20 minute break.

Talina
10-03-2011, 05:54 PM
How does this Dr. from Texas fit into anything. There was one phone call she made to Murray at 10:20 was that on the 25th?

Yes, it was on the 25th but I'm with you on not understanding what relevance her testimony was for in this trial, unless it was just to show that he was handling other things on the phone instead of tending to MJ when he was sedating him.

borndem
10-03-2011, 06:10 PM
I don't think anyone puts anything over on this lady. She seems like she knows her stuff.

Yes -- she doesn't miss a trick, either -- [this may be a kind of snotty thing to say, but...] If she had been MJ's physician, MJ would probably be watching the videos of his tour & counting his money today... bless his heart. Oh, what a criminal, IMO, that Murray is! Michael struggling to breathe for his life while his doc was on the phone probably wheeling & dealing and wooing his women... (again, JMO)

OT - kinda -- I do think MJ was frail & would probably have had problems in completing his tour on time. "Movie Stars" are historically & notoriously bossy when it comes to wanting to be medicated "their way," but I still think a different MD might have taken better care of him.. I could certainly be mistaken, but, sadly, we'll never know. He just seemed like such an innocent to me... http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif

borndem
10-03-2011, 06:15 PM
This DR is sharp and is educating this attorney.
He needs to step back and clean off his shoes.


You said it, BOZGAL!

I'm beginning to think he likes being under that bus....

Thundar
10-03-2011, 06:19 PM
We're back. Antoinette Gill on the stand.

Talina
10-03-2011, 06:20 PM
Recess is over. Next witness up Antoinette Gill.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 06:23 PM
A patient of Murray. Received a letter in mid June. Dear Patients & Friends. Letter about Murray's sabbatical.

Called Murray about the letter. Called his cell phone and had a conversation with him. Short time or long time. Short time, doesn't remember the conversation.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 06:25 PM
That's it, no cross from defense.....must have been another phone call on the 25th.

Talina
10-03-2011, 06:27 PM
No cross. Very short testimony. She called on the 25th (Dr. Murray cell phone) just before 9am. She had a very short conversation with Dr. Murray. She had just received his letter about shutting down his practice and had called asking for a referral to a new dr. Said she had known Dr. Murray for over 10 yrs.

borndem
10-03-2011, 06:30 PM
Defense keeps going on and on about the treatment MJ received in the ER. This is only making their client look worse and worse for not getting MJ there earlier.

Why is defense making such a big deal about this balloon pump? It was just another tool in trying to bring life back where there was none.

That's what I kept thinking as I heard it, Thundar -- the only thing I could figure was that since the ER did perform those procedures, the DT might try to make it look like the ER folks thought there might be hope for revival, thus making Murray look less guilty... yes, weak, I know, but all they've got so far is "weak"....

Talina
10-03-2011, 06:32 PM
That's what I kept thinking as I heard it, Thundar -- the only thing I could figure was that since the ER did perform those procedures, the DT might try to make it look like the ER folks thought there might be hope for revival, thus making Murray look less guilty... yes, weak, I know, but all they've got so far is "weak"....

That may have been their goal but to me, it made me think that if he had called 911 when it first happened that maybe there was at least a chance to save MJ but since he didn't, there was no chance.

Talina
10-03-2011, 06:34 PM
Next witness: Consuelo Ng

Talina
10-03-2011, 06:42 PM
Ms. Ng is not a nurse, no nurse training or education. Oh, wow she is naming all the women in the office and none of them are licensed nurses or any nursing certification at all. They were all cross trained and all helped with patient care and office duties.

Crosby87
10-03-2011, 06:45 PM
No cross. Very short testimony. She called on the 25th (Dr. Murray cell phone) just before 9am. She had a very short conversation with Dr. Murray. She had just received his letter about shutting down his practice and had called asking for a referral to a new dr. Said she had known Dr. Murray for over 10 yrs.

This witness said before she exited the stand that Dr. Murray never referred her to another doctor.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 06:52 PM
Prosecutor asked did Dr Murray perform procedures in his Las Vegas clinc? Witness replied no.

Is he certified for propofoll use? The defense insinuated he was. But why would he be if he did not do procedures in his clinic.

Crosby87
10-03-2011, 06:58 PM
The fact Dr. Murray had not found another doctor to replace him when he send letters to his patients informing them he would be leaving is unethical afaik.

Talina
10-03-2011, 06:59 PM
Defense going on and on about how Dr. Murray was different than other doctors usually are by becoming friend with a lot of his patients.

I'm not so sure that is a good thing.

Talina
10-03-2011, 07:02 PM
Next witness: Bridgette Morgan

Thundar
10-03-2011, 07:04 PM
Defense going on and on about how Dr. Murray was different than other doctors usually are by becoming friend with a lot of his patients.

I'm not so sure that is a good thing.

And that poor lady had to quit working for Murray "because of that Micheal Jackson thing" he had to close his clinics. That doesn't sound that good either.

octobermoon
10-03-2011, 07:04 PM
Wow, she is young!

Talina
10-03-2011, 07:08 PM
Met Dr. Murray in 2003 in Las Vegas. In June 2009 he told her he was MJ's personal physician. She called him at 11:26am on June 25. She did not speak with him when she called. He did not answer his phone. Very short cross. Witness excused. I'm not sure what the purpose of her testimony is....

Crosby87
10-03-2011, 07:09 PM
Met Dr. Murray in 2003 in Las Vegas. In June 2009 he told her he was MJ's personal physician. She called him at 11:26am on June 25. She did not speak with him when she called. He did not answer his phone. Very short cross. Witness excused. I'm not sure what the purpose of her testimony is....

Possibly to establish TOD for MJ and/or that Dr. Murray wouldn't accept personal calls at work which would dispel the rumor Dr. Murray was talking to his girlfriend when he should have been attending to MJ when he needed him.

The fact Dr. Murray didn’t answer his phone when Ms. Morgan called him at 11:49 on the morning of June 25th suggests Dr. Murray was attending to MJ.

I thought the time of her call was 11:49 but if she called him earlier at 11:26 am it could mean MJ was dead alot earlier.

Talina
10-03-2011, 07:10 PM
Possibly to establish TOD for MJ.

The fact Dr. Murray didnít answer his phone when Ms. Morgan called him at 11:49 on the morning of June 25th suggests Dr. Murray was attending to MJ.

I thought her phone call to him was 11:26.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 07:12 PM
Courts done for today.

Talina
10-03-2011, 07:17 PM
Possibly to establish TOD for MJ.

The fact Dr. Murray didnít answer his phone when Ms. Morgan called him at 11:49 on the morning of June 25th suggests Dr. Murray was attending to MJ.

I thought the time of her call was 11:49 but if she called him earlier at 11:26 am it could mean MJ was dead alot earlier.

I just looked up some information on the phone records. Apparently, this was at 11:26, the call was 7 sec, she did not talk to him. But this was while he was on the 30 some odd minute phone call to his office so that is likely why he didn't answer her phone call. According to his phone records, he called his office at 11:18 and the call lasted 32 min or thereabouts from what I've been able to look up.

Talina
10-03-2011, 07:22 PM
I'm reading on TMZ that this last witness Bridgette Morgan is an exgirlfriend of Dr. Murray. I guess they did not let the prosecution go into that type of testimony.

Melanie
10-03-2011, 07:22 PM
I certainly didn't like how the DT handled that last witness. I suppose that's their job, but the whole "are you nervous", and "where were you waiting today". Puhleeze.

Great - so CM was friendly with her grandma. Faboo -- what does that have to do with injecting MJ with an overdose of Propofal and not telling the medics or hospital about it.

Sorry - just my opinion.

Mel

borndem
10-03-2011, 07:24 PM
I really like this witness .

Except she just said a few minutes ago she was involved in the decsission to try the ballon pump. She said it was Murray and Cruise who made that call. I still like her I dont think anyone noticed but me.

I noticed, too, but it didn't make me think any less of her.

She was impressive and seemed very truthful throughout. If a juror was as sharp as we are, Soulmagent (!!!!!http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif), he/she will probably not think less of her, either.

Isabelle
10-03-2011, 07:42 PM
Met Dr. Murray in 2003 in Las Vegas. In June 2009 he told her he was MJ's personal physician. She called him at 11:26am on June 25. She did not speak with him when she called. He did not answer his phone. Very short cross. Witness excused. I'm not sure what the purpose of her testimony is....

Shows he violated HIPAA by blabbing the name of his patient. Low ethics!

Crosby87
10-03-2011, 07:45 PM
How does this Dr. from Texas fit into anything. There was one phone call she made to Murray at 10:20 was that on the 25th?

To show Dr. Murray had earned the respect of the doctors who consulted with him about a patient's care.

Isabelle
10-03-2011, 07:47 PM
Methinks Mr. Flanagan isn't all that much of a propofol defense expert. Wonder if Conrad can go after him for misrepresenting himself if he loses this case?

Isabelle
10-03-2011, 07:47 PM
I am Soooooo looking forward to the expert witnesses.

Talina
10-03-2011, 07:48 PM
To show Dr. Murray had earned the respect of the doctors who consulted with him about a patient's care.

I would agree if that was a defense witness, but she was a prosecution witness.

borndem
10-03-2011, 09:58 PM
Flanagan best be careful the way he keeps pushing this "conscious sedation". By what I am reading on the below link, his client followed nothing of the precautions that is listed.

http://www.aana.com/ForPatients.aspx?id=298

Questions to Ask About Conscious Sedation
The following is a list of questions patients should ask prior to the surgical or diagnostic procedure:

Will a trained and skilled provider be dedicated to monitoring me during conscious sedation?
Will my provider monitor my breathing, heart rate and blood pressure?
Will oxygen be available and will the oxygen content of my blood be monitored?
Are personnel trained to perform advanced cardiac life support?
Is emergency resuscitation equipment available on-site and immediately accessible in the event of an emergency?
Will a trained and skilled provider stay with me during my recovery period and for how long?
Should a friend or family member take me home?

Well, duh, Dr. Murray....:doh:

borndem
10-03-2011, 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by Thundar http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
How does this Dr. from Texas fit into anything. There was one phone call she made to Murray at 10:20 was that on the 25th?


Talina[/b];7183653]Yes, it was on the 25th but I'm with you on not understanding what relevance her testimony was for in this trial, unless it was just to show that he was handling other things on the phone instead of tending to MJ when he was sedating him.

Well, guyz -- brace yourselves for the BIG & Gigantic reason this witness was up there:

She called DrM to ask about a patient whom he had treated several months back -- pt. was taking a drug that he was supposed to stay on for six months. Pt. had been on it only 4 mos so far. This doc/witness wanted to perform a procedure that would require pt. getting off the drug. She called DrM & asked if pt. could stop taking it early. He remembered the pt. right off the bat -- no "I'm not sure, I'll have to check his file & I'll call you back," etc., etc., -- and told the witness/doctor that the pt. must stay on the drug for the remaining months.

Witness was [drumroll, puh-leeze] impressed with his recall of the patient !!!!!!!!!!

Wowie-Zowie, sports fans.


Thus spake Zarathustra & all that....

Isabelle
10-03-2011, 10:30 PM
Conscious sedation does sound like an oxymoron, but it is a type of sedation that allows the patient to follow commands, although not as quickly or efficiently as they would without the sedation. It is only used for certain minor procedures. Even with conscious sedation there is a possibility that a person will become more deeply sedated than originally desired, thus it is necessary that personnel with appropriate training be with the patient at all times for monitoring and rescue if needed.

borndem
10-03-2011, 10:42 PM
I'm reading on TMZ that this last witness Bridgette Morgan is an exgirlfriend of Dr. Murray. I guess they did not let the prosecution go into that type of testimony.


I read earlier that the Judge was not going to allow any "girlfriend references" during the trial.

borndem
10-03-2011, 10:48 PM
I am Soooooo looking forward to the expert witnesses.

Yes, Isabelle, I'm lickin' my chops, too. The M.E.'s report should tear him a new one, and it will be such a sad thing for us to hear (seriously).

Oooooohhh, can't wait. If they call an anesthesiologist,too, there won't be a bus big enuff for all of them to crawl under.... http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Crosby87
10-03-2011, 11:36 PM
Defense just asked about the condom catheter and if there was any urine visable. Witness said no urine. Then asked if they would have taken the urine for testing. Witness said yes.

Defense is finally done for now.

MJ's autopsy report states MJ called Dr. Murray at 1 am on June 25, 2009; so if MJ died after 11 am, he didn't urinate for approximately 10 hours.

In most deaths if the body has any urine in their bladder, it will drain from the body shortly after the person passes and the doctor said there was none present in the condom catheter attached to MJ.

In general, the average adult bladder can hold about 16 ounces or 2 cups of liquid at maximum. Typically, you feel the need to pee when your bladders fills to about 8 ounces.

Thundar
10-03-2011, 11:52 PM
MJ's autopsy report states MJ called Dr. Murray at 1 am on June 25, 2009; so if MJ died after 11 am, he didn't urinate for approximately 10 hours.

In most deaths if the body has any urine in their bladder, it will drain from the body shortly after the person passes and the doctor said there was none present in the condom catheter attached to MJ.

In general, the average adult bladder can hold about 16 ounces or 2 cups of liquid at maximum. Typically, you feel the need to pee when your bladders fills to about 8 ounces.

Did anyone mention the bag that I would imagine was attached to the catheter at some point? Perhaps the bag was unattached and just the catheter made the trip to the ER. Was that one of the things the doctor was cleaning up at the scene? That way there would be no urine to test.

Crosby87
10-04-2011, 12:55 AM
Did anyone mention the bag that I would imagine was attached to the catheter at some point? Perhaps the bag was unattached and just the catheter made the trip to the ER. Was that one of the things the doctor was cleaning up at the scene? That way there would be no urine to test.

IMO if the bag had been left at the house the doctor would have stated this was why his urine couldn't be tested and because she didn't, it doesn't sound like the bag was purposely removed and hidden.

So it seems like the reason his urine wasnít tested was because there wasnít any excreted from his body prior to or after his death; not a drop, which seems odd because MJ had been rehearsing for hours and because he would have perspired profusely, his body would have craved fluids after he stopped dancing.

Talina
10-04-2011, 01:44 AM
Originally Posted by Thundar http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7183647#post7183647)
How does this Dr. from Texas fit into anything. There was one phone call she made to Murray at 10:20 was that on the 25th?



Well, guyz -- brace yourselves for the BIG & Gigantic reason this witness was up there:

She called DrM to ask about a patient whom he had treated several months back -- pt. was taking a drug that he was supposed to stay on for six months. Pt. had been on it only 4 mos so far. This doc/witness wanted to perform a procedure that would require pt. getting off the drug. She called DrM & asked if pt. could stop taking it early. He remembered the pt. right off the bat -- no "I'm not sure, I'll have to check his file & I'll call you back," etc., etc., -- and told the witness/doctor that the pt. must stay on the drug for the remaining months.

Witness was [drumroll, puh-leeze] impressed with his recall of the patient !!!!!!!!!!

Wowie-Zowie, sports fans.


Thus spake Zarathustra & all that....

That still does not make sense, to me, as to why the prosecution would call this witness. Why would they want to bolster anything about another physician being impressed? The prosecution is not who solicited that testimony, the defense is so I am again back to my original question.What did this witness offer as a prosecution witness?

Crosby87
10-04-2011, 02:18 AM
That still does not make sense, to me, as to why the prosecution would call this witness. Why would they want to bolster anything about another physician being impressed? The prosecution is not who solicited that testimony, the defense is so I am again back to my original question.What did this witness offer as a prosecution witness?

This article published by CNN contains alot of good information.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/03/justice/california-conrad-murray-trial/

<snipped>

A Houston, Texas, doctor called by the prosecution Monday paid Dr. Murray a compliment Monday afternoon, saying she was "impressed" with Murray's ability to remember a patient and that patient's treatment when she called him "out of the blue."

Dr. Joanne Bednarz-Prashad's testimony was important for the prosecution because she is one of the several people who spoke to Dr. Murray on the phone the morning Jackson died. Prosecutors say he effectively abandoned Jackson by leaving his bedroom to talk on the phone that morning.

Dr. Bednarz-Prashad called Murray's cell phone to get his advice on a patient he had treated who was about to undergo surgery at a Houston hospital. Most doctors she calls in such circumstances have to call back after consulting medical charts, she said, but Murray recalled the correct information immediately.

Crosby87
10-04-2011, 02:25 AM
How long had Dr. Murray worked for MJ before he died and how many times did
Dr. Murray gave Michael Propofol? TIA

Devon
10-04-2011, 06:41 AM
That still does not make sense, to me, as to why the prosecution would call this witness. Why would they want to bolster anything about another physician being impressed? The prosecution is not who solicited that testimony, the defense is so I am again back to my original question.What did this witness offer as a prosecution witness?

It was actually the prosecution who got this witness to recount how Dr Murray instantly remembered his patient and his condition/treatment and could answer questions without any referral to notes - and how impressed the witness was by this.

It took me a while to understand why the prosecution would have yet another witness praise Murray, but I think the point they were trying to make is that he had instant recall of the medical information for a patient he hadn't seen for some time, and yet apparently couldn't remember any times/details for a patient he'd been treating just that morning! :waitasec:

If that was indeed the point they wanted to make then I hope they reinforce it with further testimony or in their closing because it wasn't at all clear IMO and the jury may not have got it.

Shelby1
10-04-2011, 08:38 AM
Met Dr. Murray in 2003 in Las Vegas. In June 2009 he told her he was MJ's personal physician. She called him at 11:26am on June 25. She did not speak with him when she called. He did not answer his phone. Very short cross. Witness excused. I'm not sure what the purpose of her testimony is....


Maybe it was to prove he was on his other phone?

Crosby87
10-04-2011, 09:31 AM
Maybe it was to prove he was on his other phone?

This article explains why the prosecution called Dr. Bednarz-Prashad and
Dr. Murray's girlfriends to testify.

<snipped>

A Houston, Texas, doctor called by the prosecution Monday paid Dr. Murray a compliment Monday afternoon, saying she was "impressed" with Murray's ability to remember a patient and that patient's treatment when she called him "out of the blue."

Dr. Joanne Bednarz-Prashad's testimony was important for the prosecution because she is one of the several people who spoke to Dr. Murray on the phone the morning Jackson died. Prosecutors say he effectively abandoned Jackson by leaving his bedroom to talk on the phone that morning.

Dr. Bednarz-Prashad called Murray's cell phone to get his advice on a patient he had treated who was about to undergo surgery at a Houston hospital. Most doctors she calls in such circumstances have to call back after consulting medical charts, she said, but Murray recalled the correct information immediately.

Prosecutors also called the first of three of Murray's girlfriends to the witness stand to talk about their conversations with the doctor just before he realized Jackson had stopped breathing

The judge prevented the prosecution from digging into the personal relationship between Murray and Bridgette Morgan, who previously testified at Murray's preliminary hearing about meeting the married doctor in a Las Vegas night club in 2003.

Morgan's call to Murray came about 30 minutes before Murray apparently discovered there was a problem with his patient.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/03/justice/california-conrad-murray-trial/




http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/03/justice/california-conrad-murray-trial/

oceanblueeyes
10-04-2011, 09:41 AM
It was actually the prosecution who got this witness to recount how Dr Murray instantly remembered his patient and his condition/treatment and could answer questions without any referral to notes - and how impressed the witness was by this.

It took me a while to understand why the prosecution would have yet another witness praise Murray, but I think the point they were trying to make is that he had instant recall of the medical information for a patient he hadn't seen for some time, and yet apparently couldn't remember any times/details for a patient he'd been treating just that morning! :waitasec:

If that was indeed the point they wanted to make then I hope they reinforce it with further testimony or in their closing because it wasn't at all clear IMO and the jury may not have got it.

The prosecutors are so smart and savvy. They are bringing in how attentive Murray was to his OTHER patients. It shows just how uncaring he was in caring for his one and only patient, MJ.

The very one that was pocketing him more money a month than he had ever made.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
10-04-2011, 09:44 AM
Maybe it was to prove he was on his other phone?

They are going to call all time line witnesses and yes in CAs the state will point out the reason he didnt answer was because he was on the other phone.

A busy man but not busy being a doctor.

IMO

Thundar
10-04-2011, 09:48 AM
IMO if the bag had been left at the house the doctor would have stated this was why his urine couldn't be tested and because she didn't, it doesn't sound like the bag was purposely removed and hidden.

So it seems like the reason his urine wasnít tested was because there wasnít any excreted from his body prior to or after his death; not a drop, which seems odd because MJ had been rehearsing for hours and because he would have perspired profusely, his body would have craved fluids after he stopped dancing.

As far as I remember no one has mentioned any urine collection bag or bottle or jug except Ms Grace loudly on her show. The urine could have been collected in a used pickle jar that was emptied into the toilet in the mornings. But I don't recall anyone specifically saying anything about it. It sounded like the only part that anyone saw was the condom catheter itself and a piece of tubing attached, no urine bag or receptacle. There was no urine passed from the patient at the hospital.

oceanblueeyes
10-04-2011, 09:51 AM
How long had Dr. Murray worked for MJ before he died and how many times did
Dr. Murray gave Michael Propofol? TIA

Since he reordered another shipment of propofol on May 12, 2009 it had to be when he became MJs doctor...which the state in the opening said was in April.

So he had done this countless times. I truly think at first Murray was totally hands on and monitored him constantly but on June 25 for some reason known only to him he had his mind on other things and certainly not on his patient which had to be constantly monitored and Murray knew this. I think he hooked up the bottle of propofol incorrectly that day and the entire bottle flooded into MJ system killing him instantly.

It is very obvious that he is not tending to his one and only patient that morning. He was way too busy talking/texting and emailing and as these distractions were happening he killed his patient due to not monitoring him at all and recklessly causing his death.

IMO

Thundar
10-04-2011, 09:55 AM
How long had Dr. Murray worked for MJ before he died and how many times did
Dr. Murray gave Michael Propofol? TIA

Murray started working for MJ in April 2009. Nobody really knows for sure when, how much, or how often Murray gave MJ propofol There are records of how much propofol Murray ordered during that time period. If I recall correctly it was about four gallons in lots of small containers.

oceanblueeyes
10-04-2011, 09:58 AM
As far as I remember no one has mentioned any urine collection bag or bottle or jug except Ms Grace loudly on her show. The urine could have been collected in a used pickle jar that was emptied into the toilet in the mornings. But I don't recall anyone specifically saying anything about it. It sounded like the only part that anyone saw was the condom catheter itself and a piece of tubing attached, no urine bag or receptacle. There was no urine passed from the patient at the hospital.

There was a bottle of urine sitting on one of the chairs close to the bed, iirc.

That is why it never made sense that CM told LE he went to urinate and was going to pour the collected urine in the bottle away because the bottle still had urine in it when MJ died. It wasn't thrown away.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
10-04-2011, 10:03 AM
More girlfriends, investigators next in trial of Michael Jackson's doctor

The women's testimony is important since their phone calls to Murray help establish the timeline of what he was doing before Jackson's death, and because the surgical anesthetic propofol the prosecution says killed him were shipped to one of their homes.

Murray's defense lawyers contend Jackson caused his own death by swallowing eight lorazepam pills and orally ingesting propofol while Murray was out of the room.





http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/04/justice/california-conrad-murray-trial/index.html?eref=rss_topstories&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+rss%2Fcnn_topstories+%28RSS%3 A+Top+Stories%29

oceanblueeyes
10-04-2011, 10:05 AM
On GMA this morning I heard that Michael Jackson's fingerprints were NOT FOUND on any of the propofol vials.

IMO

Thundar
10-04-2011, 10:06 AM
There was a bottle of urine sitting on one of the chairs close to the bed, iirc.

That is why it never made sense that CM told LE he went to urinate and was going to pour the collected urine in the bottle away because the bottle still had urine in it when MJ died. It wasn't thrown away.

IMO

Has that been testified about? Cause I missed the jar of urine on the chair. Must be where Ms Grace got the surrounded by his own urine tag line. I assumed the urine had been collected in some makeshift container that was left behind during transport. If Murray had no actual equipment for monitoring the flow of the iv or the heart rthyum, or intubation equipment, it would not make sence for him to have an actual catheter collection bag.

Talina
10-04-2011, 10:15 AM
Has that been testified about? Cause I missed the jar of urine on the chair. Must be where Ms Grace got the surrounded by his own urine tag line. I assumed the urine had been collected in some makeshift container that was left behind during transport. If Murray had no actual equipment for monitoring the flow of the iv or the heart rthyum, or intubation equipment, it would not make sence for him to have an actual catheter collection bag.

When I have some time, I'm going to go back and relisten to some of the EMS and Alvarez testimony. I recall someone testifying that the condom catheter was attached to a bag that did have urine in it.

Thundar
10-04-2011, 10:21 AM
When I have some time, I'm going to go back and relisten to some of the EMS and Alvarez testimony. I recall someone testifying that the condom catheter was attached to a bag that did have urine in it.

Thank you. I wish there was some place online to read transcripts of the testimony instead of having to listen to them all again. I'm better at reading through, it's easier to read again than to rewind and listen again.

oceanblueeyes
10-04-2011, 10:22 AM
Has that been testified about? Cause I missed the jar of urine on the chair. Must be where Ms Grace got the surrounded by his own urine tag line. I assumed the urine had been collected in some makeshift container that was left behind during transport. If Murray had no actual equipment for monitoring the flow of the iv or the heart rthyum, or intubation equipment, it would not make sence for him to have an actual catheter collection bag.

Not yet that I can remember, Thunder. It may have been in the PH but I cant remember now. Too many trials to keep up with and they all seem to blur at times especially the ones that don't come to trial for years. lol

But I do absolutely remember that it (bottle) was found on a chair close to the bed in that same bedroom. Maybe it was in the SWs?


IMO

oceanblueeyes
10-04-2011, 10:26 AM
When I have some time, I'm going to go back and relisten to some of the EMS and Alvarez testimony. I recall someone testifying that the condom catheter was attached to a bag that did have urine in it.

Yes, the ER doctor testified that when he arrived the catheter was still attached but no urine was inside of the bag.

I think Murray had bleed it off into the container but never dispensed of the urine in the container.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
10-04-2011, 10:31 AM
What is it?
How To Care For Your Condom Catheter Care Guide
How To Care For Your Condom Catheter
En Espanol
A condom catheter is a way to drain your bladder without putting a catheter (rubber tube) into your urethra (u-REE-thruh). Your urethra is the tube that runs from the outside of your body into your bladder. Your bladder is where urine is stored in your body.

A condom catheter is a rubber sheath that is put over your penis. A condom catheter allows you to empty your bladder without using a urinal, bedpan, or toilet. Your condom catheter is hooked to a plastic tube which leads to a bag. The urine stays in the bag until it is emptied into the toilet.

http://www.drugs.com/cg/how-to-care-for-your-condom-catheter.html

Talina
10-04-2011, 10:33 AM
Not yet that I can remember, Thunder. It may have been in the PH but I cant remember now. Too many trials to keep up with and they all seem to blur at times especially the ones that don't come to trial for years. lol

But I do absolutely remember that it (bottle) was found on a chair close to the bed in that same bedroom. Maybe it was in the SWs?


IMO

So far, I've quickly found this reported as being testified to in the PH.


http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/entertainment/2011-01/14/content_11868189.htm

Elissa Fleak, a coroner investigator, said she found a jug of urine on a chair when she combed through Jackson's room.

Talina
10-04-2011, 10:34 AM
Back to work for an hr so I'm done when the trial starts. See you all in a little while.

Devon
10-04-2011, 11:00 AM
This Youtube subscriber has very kindly uploaded all of the trial video so far and hopefully they will continue so that we can recap if necessary, or watch parts that we've missed.

Conrad Murray Trial - Day 5, part 1 - YouTube

21merc7
10-04-2011, 11:18 AM
Was the bag still connected to the urine catheter once in ER? I ask b/c it is interesting to note that there was no urine in it? Does the body not expel the urine upon death and the relaxation of the muscles? If so, that means that Dr. Murray had already gotten rid of any urine from that evening. It may have been the urine in the jar, IDK, but if there was none and if the bag was dry, then that was a new bag and the doc may have dumped it to avoid propofol detection?

Soulmagent
10-04-2011, 11:19 AM
On GMA this morning I heard that Michael Jackson's fingerprints were NOT FOUND on any of the propofol vials.

IMO

He always wore white gloves!

(ha sorry poor taste)

Talina
10-04-2011, 11:34 AM
Was the bag still connected to the urine catheter once in ER? I ask b/c it is interesting to note that there was no urine in it? Does the body not expel the urine upon death and the relaxation of the muscles? If so, that means that Dr. Murray had already gotten rid of any urine from that evening. It may have been the urine in the jar, IDK, but if there was none and if the bag was dry, then that was a new bag and the doc may have dumped it to avoid propofol detection?

From what I've been able to gather this morning is that there was a bottle urine found by the coroner investigator. This bottle had urine in it and it was in MJ's bedroom. It didn't sound like, from yesterday's testimony, that there was anything connected to the urine catheter in the ER and there was no urine in the condom part. So, sounds to me like he had already expelled any urine his bladder had long before he went to the ER.

I did look it up on several websites and some say you always empty bladder and bowels upon death due to muscle relaxation and a few others went further to say, yes the muscles relax and you will expel from both bladder and bowels if they are full. So I suppose it all depends on the person's condition at the time of death.

TxLady2
10-04-2011, 11:37 AM
As far as I remember no one has mentioned any urine collection bag or bottle or jug except Ms Grace loudly on her show. The urine could have been collected in a used pickle jar that was emptied into the toilet in the mornings. But I don't recall anyone specifically saying anything about it. It sounded like the only part that anyone saw was the condom catheter itself and a piece of tubing attached, no urine bag or receptacle. There was no urine passed from the patient at the hospital.

I would bet that there was a bag attached to the catheter and it was emptied and/or detached from the catheter prior to them transporting him to the hospital. If he had been dead for some time by the time Dr. Murray found him unresponsive, then his bladder would have already emptied. Paramedics might not have thought to save any urine, and I am guessing that Dr. Murray would be smart enough to know that the urine would probably be tested, thus he got rid of the evidence. JMO
I have a very strong feeling that Michael was dead for a considerable time before Dr. Murray started alerting the staff. That's also MOO.

Talina
10-04-2011, 11:39 AM
I would bet that there was a bag attached to the catheter and it was emptied and/or detached from the catheter prior to them transporting him to the hospital. If he had been dead for some time by the time Dr. Murray found him unresponsive, then his bladder would have already emptied. Paramedics might not have thought to save any urine, and I am guessing that Dr. Murray would be smart enough to know that the urine would probably be tested, thus he got rid of the evidence. JMO
I have a very strong feeling that Michael was dead for a considerable time before Dr. Murray started alerting the staff. That's also MOO.

BBM

I have the same belief.

TxLady2
10-04-2011, 11:48 AM
From what I've been able to gather this morning is that there was a bottle urine found by the coroner investigator. This bottle had urine in it and it was in MJ's bedroom. It didn't sound like, from yesterday's testimony, that there was anything connected to the urine catheter in the ER and there was no urine in the condom part. So, sounds to me like he had already expelled any urine his bladder had long before he went to the ER.

I did look it up on several websites and some say you always empty bladder and bowels upon death due to muscle relaxation and a few others went further to say, yes the muscles relax and you will expel from both bladder and bowels if they are full. So I suppose it all depends on the person's condition at the time of death.


I worked in nursing homes for around 20 years and was on duty many times when a patient died. They do not always evacuate the bowels or bladder. The aides were always instructed to check the patient and clean them up if necessary before the funeral home staff arrived to pick them up. Several times I recall there was nothing there to clean up, they had not evacuated at all. A few patients had a small amount of urine and/or feces, but not many had very large amounts. Might be the fact that they were elderly, or maybe their bodies just shut down before their hearts stopped.. IDK. I do recall a nurse telling me that the body continues to produce some waste, even if they are not getting any nourishment.

oceanblueeyes
10-04-2011, 12:26 PM
He always wore white gloves!

(ha sorry poor taste)

:waitasec:

He always wore white gloves when Murray was giving him propofol?:waitasec: But you are right that is probably what the DT will come up with Soul! LOLOLOLOL!

He began to wear gloves because his hands were beginning to show he had the skin disease vitilago. I would give anything to be able to buy one of those sequined gloves.:floorlaugh:

Michael Jackson's Fingerprints Not On Any Propofol Bottles Michael Jackson's Fingerprints Not On Any Propofol Bottles

As Dr. Conrad Murray's involuntary manslaughter trial enters its second week, RadarOnline.com has exclusively learned that Michael Jackson's fingerprints were not found on any of the Propofol bottles.

"Plain and simply, the Los Angeles Police Department didn't find any fingerprints of Michael Jackson's on ANY Propofol bottles or the Lorazepam bottles. There were no partial fingerprints of Michael's or any unknown prints on the medication bottles," a source close to the situation tells us.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/10/michael-jackson-propofol-bottles-fingerprints-not-conrad-murray-defense-he

oceanblueeyes
10-04-2011, 12:30 PM
I worked in nursing homes for around 20 years and was on duty many times when a patient died. They do not always evacuate the bowels or bladder. The aides were always instructed to check the patient and clean them up if necessary before the funeral home staff arrived to pick them up. Several times I recall there was nothing there to clean up, they had not evacuated at all. A few patients had a small amount of urine and/or feces, but not many had very large amounts. Might be the fact that they were elderly, or maybe their bodies just shut down before their hearts stopped.. IDK. I do recall a nurse telling me that the body continues to produce some waste, even if they are not getting any nourishment.

I know when my mother passed away she did not release any urine or feces.

I have also read articles through the years that it is not set in stone that a person will evacuate the bowels or bladder. Some do ......some dont.

IMO

Crosby87
10-04-2011, 01:40 PM
I know when my mother passed away she did not release any urine or feces.

I have also read articles through the years that it is not set in stone that a person will evacuate the bowels or bladder. Some do ......some dont.

IMO

Apparently there was a bottle containing urine in MJ's bedroom. Why wouldn't the person who collected it flush it down the toilet?

borndem
10-04-2011, 09:19 PM
That still does not make sense, to me, as to why the prosecution would call this witness. Why would they want to bolster anything about another physician being impressed? The prosecution is not who solicited that testimony, the defense is so I am again back to my original question.What did this witness offer as a prosecution witness?

Yes, Talina, I agree it doesn't make sense -- but I listed it also because she, like so many other quickie witnesses who were called around her, was only up there because the PT wanted to establish his being on the phone when he shouldn't have been -- that's it. And the PT was really piling it on! I can't remember for sure who pulled that little "impressed" remark out of the hat.

I was just an taking all-too-subtle jab at the defense in that they have to take their points when they can get them -- no matter from whom or how small those positives are. It was unexpected but tiny collateral damage to the PT. And I could just hear the DT saying, "Yeah, so there." But they know, they know, they are in deep poo