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View Full Version : WI WI - Mary Ellen Kaldenberg, 17, murdered in Kenosha, Feb 1967



helpthevictims
10-05-2011, 04:02 PM
In 1967 my cousin Mary Ellen Kaldenberg was murdered in Kenosha, Wisconsin on approx. Feb 9th. She was found bruttaly stabbed on Feb 14, 1967 in an old abandoned hearst near the Rail Road tracks. She had walked from her home to the store (a short distance) & was to return back home quickly as she was meeting her boyfriend for a date. There have been numerous theories, to include serial killers & possible suspects however to date this case has gone unsolved. It seems to have been put to the bottom of the pile, due to lack of evidence. The police detectives have worked diligently for many years to solve this & still nobody has been brought to justice. It has been 44 years since her murder. Her mother went to her grave never knowing who killed her only daughter. I decided to reach out to the public & create an awareness about this case & with any luck & the help of God & his Angels just maybe we can find out who killed this innocent young girl. If the murderer of Mary Ellen is still alive & reading this please clear your conscience & confess because if you don't when you do die God is going to punish you worse then you could ever imagine the authorities will.

marycarney
10-05-2011, 04:35 PM
How sad! Do you have any old newspaper clippings etc that you could post to give more nformation on this case? Thanks

helpthevictims
10-05-2011, 04:40 PM
Yes, there are numerous. I am working on putting all that together & will post links, am new at this so I just need to figure it all out. Thank you for your interest. :rollercoaster:

STANDREID
10-05-2011, 04:49 PM
I first read about this case in Getting Away With Murder. It's #169 on my top 210 Classic Unsolved Murder Cases list. I hope you can find some peace and satisfaction regarding this crime.

ynotdivein
10-05-2011, 06:18 PM
I first read about this case in Getting Away With Murder. It's #169 on my top 210 Classic Unsolved Murder Cases list. I hope you can find some peace and satisfaction regarding this crime.

Stan, can you help by sharing any info you've discovered about Mary Ellen's disappearance? I'll start:

Missing from Kenosha, WI
Last reported seen on or about 2/9/67
Remains found in a vehicle near RR tracks
Remains discovered 2/14/67

ynotdivein
10-05-2011, 06:42 PM
http://www.newspaperarchive.com/SiteMap/FreePdfPreview.aspx?img=104980204

ynotdivein
10-05-2011, 06:45 PM
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19680624&id=igAkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=en4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=7312,2175763

Mary Ellen mentioned near bottom of middle column.

STANDREID
10-05-2011, 07:02 PM
The account I have says:

No one remembered seeing her at her supposed destination

She was apparently stabbed to death in the derelict hearse more than a mile from that destination

This vehicle was in an impound lot and had been there for many weeks before the crime

The victim was fully clothed with the exception of her shoes that had been removed and placed next to her body

She had not been sexually interfered with

A slab of broken concrete was placed across her abdomen, probably after death

One witness said he saw a blue 1962 Rambler near the crime scene on the night of the murder which has not been found or explained

ynotdivein
10-05-2011, 07:12 PM
Stan, thanks for all that info! Can you link to the source(s)? If so, I think that what you've provided would give WS sleuthers lots to work on.

STANDREID
10-05-2011, 07:21 PM
That information is out of the book I have - Getting Away With Murder 1991 Bonus Books by Ed Baumann and John O'Brien - which has a chapter on the case.

ynotdivein
10-05-2011, 07:34 PM
That information is out of the book I have - Getting Away With Murder 1991 Bonus Books by Ed Baumann and John O'Brien - which has a chapter on the case. The account I have says:

No one remembered seeing her at her supposed destination

She was apparently stabbed to death in the derelict hearse more than a mile from that destination

Do we know what she was wearing when she left to go to that destination? Do we know how far the derelict hearse is from her home? I.e., do we think she got to her destination and was taken from there, or was she lured or taken from a different spot along her route to the shop?


This vehicle was in an impound lot and had been there for many weeks before the crime

Do we know if the impound lot was locked or secured in some way? Who had access to the lot, who might have known there was a hearse there?


The victim was fully clothed with the exception of her shoes that had been removed and placed next to her body

She had not been sexually interfered with

A slab of broken concrete was placed across her abdomen, probably after death

Shoes next to body (situated how?) + slab of concrete over abdomen + lack of sexual abuse seem to equal a very unique signature. If slab of concrete is accurate--what kind/composition of concrete, how thick, and does this match other crimes in this timeframe? Where did concrete come from; road work or ????


One witness said he saw a blue 1962 Rambler near the crime scene on the night of the murder that has not been found or explained

Near the crime scene = near the impound yard where the hearse was, I guess?

Stan, thanks again for tracking what we know about what happened to Mary Ellen.

wfgodot
10-05-2011, 07:44 PM
Still mind-boggled at the notion of the body being found in an old hearse.

ynotdivein
10-05-2011, 07:54 PM
Still mind-boggled at the notion of the body being found in an old hearse.

And that apparently the murder took place inside that vehicle... If she had been murdered elsewhere and brought to the impound site, seems there would be evidence showing that. So she was led there, forcibly or not, entered the vehicle willingly or not, and was apparently murdered inside it.

Help us out here, Mary Ellen. What happened to you?

STANDREID
10-05-2011, 08:08 PM
All from this single source:

She was wearing a green sweater, black stretch pants and a red ski jacket and had been stabbed through the upper garments.

The hearse was "more than a mile from the corner drugstore" which was 2 blocks from her home.

I don't think we know if she made it to the drugstore unless someone has some information that I don't.

The lot was locked up at night but the fence was such that it could be crawled under or climbed over so anyone could have gotten in there where this vehicle and others were kept.

It just says the shoes were "arranged neatly next to the corpse".

I don't know any other crimes in this region with the concrete slab but it supposedly came from a broken up sidewalk.

Yes, the Rambler was seen near the auto pound.

helpthevictims
10-05-2011, 09:01 PM
Wow, thanks everyone for assisting me so quickly and getting my info out there. My printer scanner isnt working so good & am struggling to link the articles I wanted to. Hope its not me :( Stan, thank you for your info: I was wondering what other crime scene regions you might have been referring to......and what year was the rambler? I really appreciate your help. Anything anyone may have is so appreciated. My Love & prayers to all the families of our victims, Tam

ynotdivein
10-05-2011, 09:02 PM
Help me out here with "auto pond"?

helpthevictims
10-05-2011, 09:08 PM
I think there may have been something on that, can't remember. thank you for your interest. My prayers to all the families of murdered victims.

helpthevictims
10-05-2011, 09:21 PM
How far was the pond from where they kept the vehicles, Specifically the hearse in that lot? And I heard the concrete was actually further away. I so appreciate any help you can give.

STANDREID
10-05-2011, 09:25 PM
Help me out here with "auto pond"?

Sorry, I meant "auto pound":waitasec:

helpthevictims
10-05-2011, 09:27 PM
What is an auto pound? oops never mind, I get it. thank you. disregard. Must be tired Stan.

ynotdivein
10-05-2011, 09:29 PM
The impound lot where they take vehicles that are towed, yes?

(Which if I am right means that there should be records of vehicles towed to the impound lot?)

STANDREID
10-05-2011, 09:39 PM
I was wondering what other crime scene regions you might have been referring to......and what year was the rambler?

Hi Tam:

I was just thinking of a teenage girl, Shirley Collins, who was smashed under a concrete slab in Australia in 1953 so that's why I said no more - too much of a stretch.

It says the Rambler was a 1962 model.

helpthevictims
10-05-2011, 09:43 PM
The hearse had been there previously, how long I don't know. But I do know it had been there for a while, I believe it may have either had flat tires or maybe missing tires. don't know but it was already there prior to this maniac leaving HER there. What kind of person does something like this?! Leaving a poor stabbed to death young innocent girl in a hearse before her time. What do you think he was trying to say by choosing the hearse? What kind of fascination with the dead does this say? Sure wish we had the answers. Hell at this stage I will take a clue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

STANDREID
10-05-2011, 09:44 PM
The impound lot where they take vehicles that are towed, yes?

(Which if I am right means that there should be records of vehicles towed to the impound lot?)

Correct and I would think.

They did know who used the hearse and that it was towed in, I think, because it was blocking a snow plow from doing its work.

helpthevictims
10-05-2011, 09:48 PM
Correct and I would think.

They did know who used the hearse and that it was towed in, I think, because it was blocking a snow plow from doing its work.
Are you referring to Feb 1967?

ynotdivein
10-06-2011, 12:04 AM
Who at that time would have known that there was a hearse there?

Who knew Mary Ellen at the time of her disappearance who might have had a connection with that tow lot?

STANDREID
10-06-2011, 08:00 AM
The account I have says that the hearse had been there several months.

I don't know if it could be seen by anyone walking past the lot but perhaps that was the case.

Apparently, a 1948 Packard hearse was considered next to junk in 1967. Today, I think it would be worth over $100,000.

helpthevictims
10-08-2011, 11:19 AM
The hearse was in a police lot where they stored old vehicles. So was known by many people. The public was aware as the lot was about to auction off the old hearse. Also it was a place where kids would go to roam around & play as it was 3 children that discovered Mary Ellens body. So seems that the killer had to either be a local or maybe knew someone that was from the area that told the killer about it or maybe had gone there in the past. I find it strange that the killer just put her in that hearse because he stumbled upon it. Highly unlikely but who knows. To me the hearse if very significant. I think he was making some sort of statement by putting her in there. Maybe for shock value. I find the thinking rather of a young mind, immature mind or someone of a "slow" mind. Perhaps the actions show some sort of logic as that's where a body ends up right, in a hearse. Like a young person might think. Who knows.

helpthevictims
10-08-2011, 12:52 PM
I also should have said that the hearse prior to being taken off the road & put in the auto pound lot it was used sometimes for hauling around a baseball team. Don't know if that was a little league team or what type of team. But strangely enough that was one of it's uses.

Stella
10-09-2011, 10:59 PM
Someone named Robert Crane is on the Ancestry board under Miss Kaldenbergs' name, claiming he has solved the case. I wish he'd join us here on WS and share what he could with us.

helpthevictims
10-15-2011, 11:02 AM
Yes, I know!!!!!! How about that info. Since 1995 he has been posting on Ancestry.com that he is a writer looking for info on her murder. He has asked for pictures and also specifically looking for a friend of hers from the 60's. Then states he needs one more piece of information to finalize his research and he will reveal the killer. Interesting. The problem I have with this is then why hasn't he taken his information to the police, which I know for a fact he has not!!!!!!! If I already knew who the killer was I sure would pass that information over to the detectives. Oh and he states that he himself knew her, he says he was a good friend of her brother Eddie growing up. He is a local of Kenosha, WI Robert Crane if you have solved this PLEASE call the Kenosha, WI police dept & speak with Sgt Tappa or if you are still not ready to do that will you email me at tammyjolene@roadrunner.com & offer our family some hope.

helpthevictims
11-09-2011, 02:24 PM
So happy there are people out there who care about Mary Ellen's unsolved murder. I received private message from you "D" you are so kind. I emailed you back today. Sorry for the delay. I have been ill and unable to be on computer. If anyone has any thoughts on murders in the Michigan area from the 60's, 70's and even 80's would you please private message me. Any murderer out there could be a possible suspect and may help. PLEASE someone out there help us solve this horrific crime. I ask all to pray to God to guide us in the right direction.

BritsKate
11-18-2011, 05:13 AM
Being from Wisconsin myself this case caught my eye.

I think the hearse was simply opportunistic for disposal but I do agree whomever used it for that purpose knew it was there.

Is there any possibility Mary Ellen may have been pregnant at the time of her murder? The concrete being staged across the abdomen makes me wonder.

Was her boyfriend ever interviewed? Did he know she planned on running to the store before their date? Was there perhaps a phone call to a friend before she left the house?
How did the boyfriend react to her murder? (Not trying to implicate the boyfriend but we have learned much in terms of criminology since this murder)

A possible suspect is mentioned in one of the articles but not named - what was that possible suspect's relationship to Mary Ellen? Was the murder also committed in the hearse? How close to the impound 'lot' was the store? Did she have to pass by the lot to get there? Did anyone see her on the way to the store?

lucasd
11-22-2011, 04:19 AM
I am from the town where this happened and from what I have learned in articles (I was 5 at the time it happened), the impound lot was about a mile away. I agree that she may have been placed there after the murder. When this happened there were 2 large manufacturing plants, several taverns, and 3 stores in the area so I am not sure which store she was going to. Also I don't recall if she ever made it to the store. I am surprised that no one remembers anything since the elementary school, junior high school, and a park in the area so there must have been some kids around because it wasn't too late. This is very strange and has been on my mind for a long time.

Ausgirl
11-28-2011, 12:52 AM
I must concur with those posters who have seen a 'ritualistic' element in the combination of shoes placed beside her, concrete slab placed on her abdomen and her body placed in the hearse.

Seems to me a kind of "burial" ritual. Almost reverent. I'd be interested in any reports concerning local mental patients with a history of violence, religious mania or harassing women, possibly recently released from hospital or jail at the time.

Something (mainly that the location took some effort to get to, rather than a vacant house or lot with more convenient, faster access) tells me the hearse was known to this person, it meant something to them (personally or symbolically) and that they were probably local.

Bizarre ritual says to me: the guy may have had mental problems. It's possible he was locally treated for those.

SyraKelly
01-07-2012, 02:40 PM
I wonder if LE still have the concrete slab-can they get DNA or fingerprints off it now-I know its been a long time!

helpthevictims
01-22-2012, 05:44 PM
So happy there are people out there who care about Mary Ellen's unsolved murder. I received private message from you "D" you are so kind. I emailed you back today. Sorry for the delay. I have been ill and unable to be on computer. If anyone has any thoughts on murders in the Michigan area from the 60's, 70's and even 80's would you please private message me. Any murderer out there could be a possible suspect and may help. PLEASE someone out there help us solve this horrific crime. I ask all to pray to God to guide us in the right direction.
ooops I meant WISCONSIN (not michigan) ugh

helpthevictims
01-22-2012, 05:47 PM
I wonder if LE still have the concrete slab-can they get DNA or fingerprints off it now-I know its been a long time!
Unsure of that, however a concrete slab is so bumpy, seems it would be difficult. I would say however at the time I am sure they would have checked for fingerprints back then. Thank you for your interest, God Bless.

helpthevictims
01-22-2012, 05:55 PM
I must concur with those posters who have seen a 'ritualistic' element in the combination of shoes placed beside her, concrete slab placed on her abdomen and her body placed in the hearse.

Seems to me a kind of "burial" ritual. Almost reverent. I'd be interested in any reports concerning local mental patients with a history of violence, religious mania or harassing women, possibly recently released from hospital or jail at the time.

Something (mainly that the location took some effort to get to, rather than a vacant house or lot with more convenient, faster access) tells me the hearse was known to this person, it meant something to them (personally or symbolically) and that they were probably local.

Bizarre ritual says to me: the guy may have had mental problems. It's possible he was locally treated for those.
Thank you for your insight. I too feel a definite significance to her being placed in the hearse. Logical? Crazy? Shock Value? All of the above? I continue to pray we will get our answers and solve this crime. I ask all who are aware of this story please pray for guidance and direction from God to assist the authorities in finding this murderer and bring them to justice. God Bless.

Still_Seek_Answers
01-22-2012, 06:47 PM
While I would think the bumpy of a block would help not hinder DNA attaching to an object. Skin cells would be easier taken off a body,(by the roughness of the block) and even old body fluids might be there. I am also curious if they tested any of her clothing for DNA? Also, while I understand why the writer included all of the other murders in his/her newspaper article, it is painfully obvious that the male shooting victims, at the least probably are not related.
Also, it says her body was "frozen" when found? Was the hearse hidden well enough for her body to have been there that long?
Sorry, not trying to ask hurtful questions, simply attempting to pin down some facts.

helpthevictims
01-22-2012, 07:13 PM
I have attached 5 news articles with any & all information about this crime that was put out to the public in 1967. Realizing the murderer could have possibly been a serial killer many detectives as well as myself have looked at all known serial killers or murderers on record. To date I personally have only found one similarity with any of them. I am curious what some of you might come up with, as well as any "profiles of the killer" you would like to state. I welcome any and all constructive comments, ideas and theories. Thank you all so much for taking the time and consideration in helping seek justice for Mary Ellen. Please pray for one another for guidance, insight and direction in all our quests to never forget those taken from us, and may their lives have not been in vain. Let's catch us a killer. God Bless.
P.S. Most Of the articles are tiny print & may need to be enlarged. I personally printed them and blew them up.

helpthevictims
01-22-2012, 07:23 PM
While I would think the bumpy of a block would help not hinder DNA attaching to an object. Skin cells would be easier taken off a body,(by the roughness of the block) and even old body fluids might be there. I am also curious if they tested any of her clothing for DNA? Also, while I understand why the writer included all of the other murders in his/her newspaper article, it is painfully obvious that the male shooting victims, at the least probably are not related.
Also, it says her body was "frozen" when found? Was the hearse hidden well enough for her body to have been there that long?
Sorry, not trying to ask hurtful questions, simply attempting to pin down some facts.
Yes she was frozen. Went missing on Feb 9th and found by 3 children playing in the lot on Feb 14th. The hearse was not hidden at all. I wondered that too. Seems to me they didn't look too hard for her. Obviously they hadn't look there anyway. As a matter of fact it was located I believe near the outside of the lot near some railroad tracks. I don't think you could see in it very well. As far as DNA evidence I can't give you anything on that. For one they didn't have DNA in 1967 and it has been 44 yrs & DNA degrates itself but I can tell you I have convinced the Kenosha police department to actively work this again and they are doing so. Let's pray they could get something. Thank you, God bless.

Still_Seek_Answers
01-22-2012, 07:47 PM
Ok, the articles were helpful, but someone needs to make sure the police kept the evidence.....sometimes things get misplaced....I am specifically speaking of her clothes, they need rechecked for DNA the clothes from the other two girls who were unsolved need checked also, and any DNA found needs compared. The other two girls were bound, so if it was the same person, then my guess is your cousin was probably among his first victims.I am sorry if I sound cold and unfeeling, I just hate it when a killer gets by without being charged for all of his victims. I could be wrong, but from the description of the hearse, I feel she was killed there. Which means, she was either with someone she knew well enough to feel safe walking that far with, or somehow they forced her there, and I doubt someone would have been able to force her to walk that many blocks, and not get noticed, so somewhere out there...is a vehicle that was involved I think. So everyone needs to do a memory check, maybe someone saw her in a vehicle with someone they did not see as threatening, ( a serial killer cop is the lead suspect in my sisters disappearance) someone they did not think it odd for her to be in the vehicle with. (JMO) Yes, DNA degrades, but often good samples have been found on protected articles stored longer.....so no harm in them rechecking her clothing. I know it is a long shot, but often in cases like ours, cases so old, long shots pay off...my prayers are with you.

helpthevictims
01-22-2012, 08:10 PM
Yes I am tracking with you. If you read some of the previous posts that might help you understand with better info. As you'll read prior I am working currently with police to basically start over. I feel very confident we are going to get answers. Thank you for your support, back at ya!!! God Bless.

Still_Seek_Answers
01-22-2012, 08:44 PM
I am sorry to sound so cold, and to place such a cold sounding post out for a family; This was in the third article, the one in the Zanesville paper.
The girl was fully clad except
for her shoes, which were near
the body in the blood-spattered
hearse. "Wavro said it appeared
the girl had been dragged to the
hearse, which had been sitting
in the lot for several months.

It does not state anything about a blood trail to the hearse, which to me indicates, she may have been dragged there, then stabbed, which explains the blood splatter inside. Perhaps she was knocked out, then dragged?

helpthevictims
01-23-2012, 02:20 PM
Something just came to me, like a lightbulb turned on in my head!!!!
I think the murderer killed Mary Ellen in the hearse as a show of COMPASSION. In that sick mind these actions I believe show a level of thoughtfulness. I have always said placing her in a hearse seemed logical. It's how we transport bodies out of respect "a special vehicle" and the fact that he neatly placed her shoes next to her also shows he is meticulous, and in his mind being considerate. The concrete on/around her also could symbolize a twisted show of respect as "placing the rock" like we might bury a dog or cat and cover the site with rock so nothing can get at it. Perhaps also as I mentioned prior, a sign too of his shame for the crime. I would think this person could be a borderline split personality type. Probably has never been caught because they appear so normal, probably married, has a career, kids, an all around good person, a member of the pta. If this person has murdered after this, I would bet this was their first murder.
What do you guys think?:websleuther:

helpthevictims
01-23-2012, 02:35 PM
I am sorry to sound so cold, and to place such a cold sounding post out for a family; This was in the third article, the one in the Zanesville paper.
The girl was fully clad except
for her shoes, which were near
the body in the blood-spattered
hearse. "Wavro said it appeared
the girl had been dragged to the
hearse, which had been sitting
in the lot for several months.

It does not state anything about a blood trail to the hearse, which to me indicates, she may have been dragged there, then stabbed, which explains the blood splatter inside. Perhaps she was knocked out, then dragged?
She did not have any head wounds or head trauma and I sure hope she was alert so that she fought back and maybe we'll get DNA from her nails. Also I have wondered if fighting back could be why she was not sexually assaulted. She didn't give him the chance. Certainly one theory that I am sure has been looked at since 1967.

Belinda
01-23-2012, 02:36 PM
Just read the thread. Personally, I don't see any respect. Don't know why the hearse, but I doubt it was for some sensitive reason. I wonder if it was unlocked and the other vehicles in the lot were locked? That would seem unlikely, but you never know. However, how did they know it was unlocked? Could this person have some tie to the impound lot?

Still_Seek_Answers
01-23-2012, 02:50 PM
She did not have any head wounds or head trauma and I sure hope she was alert so that she fought back and maybe we'll get DNA from her nails. Also I have wondered if fighting back could be why she was not sexually assaulted. She didn't give him the chance. Certainly one theory that I am sure has been looked at since 1967. I also think sexual assault was the reason for the hearse, sick as that sounds, I am referring to the space, more than the vehicle. I think her shoes came off perhaps as he dragged her. And she would not really need a noticeable head injury to be knocked out. When I was about 15 one of my brothers and I were wrestling around, and he put me in a choke hold that used to be common, (known as the sleeper hold)...something like that would leave no lasting damage.Was her face covered? They say that is a sign of shame and remorse. If not my opinion is the slabs were to conceal her, I don't think she was a planned victim, it was more of a crime of chance, he happened upon her out alone...so he needed to hide her as long as possible....JMO

Still_Seek_Answers
01-23-2012, 02:56 PM
Please don't misunderstand, I hope she fought like heck, and that they find DNA everywhere...my mind is just trying to make sense of the drag marks. The condition of the hearse truly makes me feel she was stabbed there. So she could have still been resisting so he half dragged half walked her there?

:+:MrTT:+:
01-23-2012, 07:16 PM
According to the one article. She was found in the back laying on her back I assume, and surrounded by concrete blocks and a piece of concrete was found on her stomach. Was she found with her feet facing the rear of the hearse and her head towards the seats in front. And the bricks were they going up and around her but nothing in front of her feet.

The hearse could indicate a means of transportation.
A symbolic means of transportation, since apparently looking at the photo it was missing at least one rear wheel.
If someone is deceased the normal mode of transportation is by hearse. If she was killed inside the hearse, the hearse could have represented what was being done. Used as an symbol for death, an alter itself, with going inside would represent a type of church setting or some satanic ritual perhaps, and any deaths that could have been carried by this hearse.

The surrounding of the body with blocks and placing a piece on her stomach may indicate a temple of some kind. Like a human sacrifice. Being 1967 I would have to read a lot more to see any connection.

She was dragged to the hearse. Which tells me is how she lost her shoes, they know she was dragged because of the markings in the dirt, gravel grass whatever, and then placed inside the concrete block temple and stabbed 10 times/another article mentions stabbed 12 times instead of 10.

I believe there may had been two killers involved and not one. I t may had been preplanned and they were looking for a victim nearby. For some reason they chose this person. Perhaps because she was on foot and alone and for other reasons.

Any connection to the other two. I don't know. We have not seen enough to determine if they may be related other than cause of death being knife wounds. The dagger part I found interesting as being a possible murder weapon.

If her shoes were the kind you tie on and not slip on. He took them off of her so she could not run away or run very fast and he carried them to the hearse. She may had already been rendered unconscious, before being dragged to the hearse. If the dragging tracks were more in a straight line, and nothing zig zag to indicate she was thrusting her legs around while being dragged. I would say she was already rendered unconscious.

helpthevictims
01-25-2012, 10:26 PM
Just read the thread. Personally, I don't see any respect. Don't know why the hearse, but I doubt it was for some sensitive reason. I wonder if it was unlocked and the other vehicles in the lot were locked? That would seem unlikely, but you never know. However, how did they know it was unlocked? Could this person have some tie to the impound lot?
Is what I mean by respect is of a "sick logic" it's where we transport the dead. I don't feel any murderer has a normal type respect like you and I, but in a murderers mind they might think "well I put her in a hearse" ya know.
The lot was an impound lot for abandoned vehicles. It had been taken there in the recent past and was going up on auction in a few weeks. It was a small town, everyone knew everybody and all the town news. So all the locals knew about an old 1948 White Packard Hearse in the lot. It had "Frankies Place" on the side of it and had actually been used to haul around a baseball team in the past. It probably stuck out like a sore thumb. It had tires missing. Kids played in the lot, people would walk thru it as their was a school and park nearby and so on.

The whole issue of the Hearse certainly has always baffled everyone. I think the sad sick truth is that the murderer(s) chose to kill her in it out of a sick sense or their own morbid thinking. "sick logic"

bessie
01-28-2012, 01:25 AM
Helpthevictims, do you know if Mary Ellen's murder and the murders in Pewaukee were ever considered to be related to the unsolved University of Wisconsin/Madison, WI murders, sometimes called the Capital City Murders?

WI - Serial Killer From 1968 Until ? - Page 8 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Some of the young female victims were also brutally stabbed in the chest area. I haven't seen anything that matches the hearse or the concrete blocks, but then I haven't researched the cases in depth yet, either.

Robin Hood
02-05-2012, 03:12 PM
Hepthevictims, do you know if Mary Ellen's murder and the murders in Pewaukee were ever considered to be related to the unsolved University of Wisconsin/Madison, WI murders, sometimes called the Capital City Murders?

WI - Serial Killer From 1968 Until ? - Page 8 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3431154)

Some of the young female victims were also brutally stabbed in the chest area. I haven't seen anything that matches the hearse or the concrete blocks, but then I haven't researched the cases in depth yet, either.

The only other cinder block or concrete block reference I can find is Portia Bufford aged 8, June '63 http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19680624&id=igAkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=en4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=7312,2175763

More about Portia here, mentions her body being found under a parked rubbish truck
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19660216&id=iN0jAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wCcEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7419,2926536

:+:MrTT:+:
02-05-2012, 05:37 PM
quick question for any one whom may know.
Feb 9th 1967 being a Thursday,(New-Moon) does not look as if weather was bad that day. So transportation in the area where she was heading from home would not had been a problem due to snow. Since she was going to be back home quick for her date.

Can anyone tell me if the boyfriend she was going out with showed up to the house to pick her up at the schedule time he was suppose to??

OldSteve
02-05-2012, 10:17 PM
Upper body stabbing reminds me of what I recently saw on an ID show about the Connecticut Valley serial killer. He did nothing sexual, just stabbing - profilers felt stabbing for him is actually something sexual, so in that sense he is committing a sexual attack.
orm of sexual attack. This killer took his victims shoes (have to double check that), correct me if I'm wrong (anyone?).
He stabbed multiple times, upper body. I do not believe this SK is actually related to Mary murder, just his profile.
How many times was Mary stabbed (sorry to ask)?
Wonder if anything of her's was found missing since SK usually take trophies.

ETA - here's a link to the show I was mentioning:
http://investigation.discovery.com/tv/dark-minds/episodes/episode-guide.html

Bargle
02-06-2012, 09:26 PM
Upper body stabbing reminds me of what I recently saw on an ID show about the Connecticut Valley serial killer. He did nothing sexual, just stabbing - profilers felt stabbing for him is actually something sexual, so in that sense he is committing a sexual attack.
orm of sexual attack. This killer took his victims shoes (have to double check that), correct me if I'm wrong (anyone?).
He stabbed multiple times, upper body. I do not believe this SK is actually related to Mary murder, just his profile.
How many times was Mary stabbed (sorry to ask)?
Wonder if anything of her's was found missing since SK usually take trophies.

ETA - here's a link to the show I was mentioning:
http://investigation.discovery.com/tv/dark-minds/episodes/episode-guide.html

According to the book, "Getting Away With Murder" by Baymann and O'Brien, she was stabbed 12 times in the chest, neck and forehead. She was wearing all her clothing when stabbed.

Winward1
02-06-2012, 10:49 PM
Sorry to hear about your cousin. My cousin was murdered many years ago in a long cold case. That must have been horrific for those school children who found her.

Bargle
02-07-2012, 07:38 AM
According to the book, "Getting Away With Murder" by Baymann and O'Brien, she was stabbed 12 times in the chest, neck and forehead. She was wearing all her clothing when stabbed.

That should be Baumann & O'Brien.

helpthevictims
02-09-2012, 10:51 AM
quick question for any one whom may know.
Feb 9th 1967 being a Thursday,(New-Moon) does not look as if weather was bad that day. So transportation in the area where she was heading from home would not had been a problem due to snow. Since she was going to be back home quick for her date.

Can anyone tell me if the boyfriend she was going out with showed up to the house to pick her up at the schedule time he was suppose to??
Yes, her boyfriend was at the house waiting for her to return. He definetly had nothing to do with her murder. I have to say that your earlier post was very intuitive for reasons I can't say yet. However so you know there is nothing ritualistic about the crime or motive. Thank you for your interest.

helpthevictims
02-09-2012, 10:54 AM
Sorry to hear about your cousin. My cousin was murdered many years ago in a long cold case. That must have been horrific for those school children who found her.
Thank you so much. I too am very sorry for your loss. I am sure those children were traumatized. Do you have a thread on your cousins unsolved case.

helpthevictims
02-09-2012, 11:04 AM
Upper body stabbing reminds me of what I recently saw on an ID show about the Connecticut Valley serial killer. He did nothing sexual, just stabbing - profilers felt stabbing for him is actually something sexual, so in that sense he is committing a sexual attack.
orm of sexual attack. This killer took his victims shoes (have to double check that), correct me if I'm wrong (anyone?).
He stabbed multiple times, upper body. I do not believe this SK is actually related to Mary murder, just his profile.
How many times was Mary stabbed (sorry to ask)?
Wonder if anything of her's was found missing since SK usually take trophies.

ETA - here's a link to the show I was mentioning:
http://investigation.discovery.com/tv/dark-minds/episodes/episode-guide.html
Yes I do know. Is all I can tell you is it is more than the papers reported. She was stabbed in her chest, neck and minor cuts to her forehead as when the perp slashed at her face I'll bet she was fighting to protect her face. Your right about the relationship to the referred case, I too do not believe any connection other than the stabbing itself. I know the I.D. show your talking about, I too saw that last week. I believe when there is no sexual assault that is exactly the profile of the perp (the stabbing is his sex with his victim). Then in other cases I believe it's a personal crime, jealousy, revenge, deep anger. Stabbing over and over is personal to the perp in different ways. Mary Ellen's was personal !!!!!!! Someone local, someone she knew, over jealousy, more than one killer and I always felt maybe a woman was involved too.

:+:MrTT:+:
02-10-2012, 05:53 PM
If there is something specific, you would like for us to speculate on and or make assumptions about a possible connection/explanation please post it.

I don't recall reading about the time of day when all of this occurred other than it occurred during evening.
Was it around Dusk on that evening, between 5 and 6 pm When she left and went to the corner store?

Kimster
02-19-2012, 05:05 PM
:rose: Mary Ellen is our featured cold case from 2/19 - 2/26/12 :rose:

Are there any pictures of her available? If someone posts one here, please PM me and I'll copy it to the front page.

:hug:

rosesfromangels
02-19-2012, 07:26 PM
Initial impressions that come to me...

Shoes next to her - They bury the dead without their shoes on. We sleep without our shoes on. I'm not sure the fact they don't bury the dead without their shoes is common knowlege. Someone in that line of business?
Hearse - the obvious association, and...hearse's have a strong appeal to what we today call "gothic" types. They seek and relish the macabre. Were there any odd cults in the surrounding area?
Concrete on her abdomen - BABY comes to mind. Had she ever been pregnant, lost a child, or had an abortion? I think this is an incredibly important theory to explore.

I would look to anyone who had even the loosest connection to the funeral business. Even a handyman who did oddjobs for them. Someone is obviously obsessed with death,and the macabre. Something also tells me they became obsessed with the abandoned hearse, and felt compelled to "give" it a passenger. Trace the history of that vehicle! Where did it come from, check EVERYONE that was connected to it in ANY way.

Oddly enough, I think the murder was more about the obsession with the hearse, than it was with the girl. These are my initial impressions.

BTW - after the discovery, what became of the hearse? WHO was ultimately responsible for disposing of it? Where? VERY CAREFULLY and thoroughly follow that trail. You just might find your perp. They would want to personally be involved with laying the object of their obsession to rest. And speaking of this, did anyone every investigate the people working in the yard where this hearse was left? I just keep going back to someone's bizarre attachment to the vehicle.

If you still believe the obsession or fixation was with the girl (and not just a random crime), then I would suggest you carefully analyze who was at her funeral/memorial service. (Including who was working in any capacity to support the funeral, or her preparation.)

I know some of this notions sound far reaching, but this is what comes to mind.

rosesfromangels
02-19-2012, 11:21 PM
I would like to know more about this original Suspect that the news article mentions. How old was he? What did he do for a living? They say that she knew him, and had quarrelled in the past....what about? Had they dated? Was she pregnant? Was he stalking her and did she rebuff him? They reference him having been given a polygraph...did he fail? He moved away...is he still alive? Perhaps he would be willing to share his recollections with an investigative reporter, or the police? After all, if he *is* innocent, I'm sure he'd want to help in any way. Right? By the tone of the paper, it sure sounds like they thought they had found their man. What happened...not enough evidence, or?

fridaybaker
02-20-2012, 12:47 AM
Initial impressions that come to me...

Shoes next to her - They bury the dead without their shoes on. We sleep without our shoes on. I'm not sure the fact they don't bury the dead without their shoes is common knowlege. Someone in that line of business?
Hearse - the obvious association, and...hearse's have a strong appeal to what we today call "gothic" types. They seek and relish the macabre. Were there any odd cults in the surrounding area?
Concrete on her abdomen - BABY comes to mind. Had she ever been pregnant, lost a child, or had an abortion? I think this is an incredibly important theory to explore.

I would look to anyone who had even the loosest connection to the funeral business. Even a handyman who did oddjobs for them. Someone is obviously obsessed with death,and the macabre. Something also tells me they became obsessed with the abandoned hearse, and felt compelled to "give" it a passenger. Trace the history of that vehicle! Where did it come from, check EVERYONE that was connected to it in ANY way.

Oddly enough, I think the murder was more about the obsession with the hearse, than it was with the girl. These are my initial impressions.

BTW - after the discovery, what became of the hearse? WHO was ultimately responsible for disposing of it? Where? VERY CAREFULLY and thoroughly follow that trail. You just might find your perp. They would want to personally be involved with laying the object of their obsession to rest. And speaking of this, did anyone every investigate the people working in the yard where this hearse was left? I just keep going back to someone's bizarre attachment to the vehicle.

If you still believe the obsession or fixation was with the girl (and not just a random crime), then I would suggest you carefully analyze who was at her funeral/memorial service. (Including who was working in any capacity to support the funeral, or her preparation.)

I know some of this notions sound far reaching, but this is what comes to mind.

Great ideas here! However, although I think that your idea regarding a fixation on death/the macbre is very possible, I also think that the crime scene could be looked at like this: Whoever did this (and here I'm thinking of a previous poster's thoughts on a woman being involved -sorry, can't find the exact post right now- ) maybe instead of being fixated on death, was "fixated" or at least sought out this specific victim, and then "gave her a funeral", because she/he was close to the victim in some way.

The hearse, the shoes off, and from what I understand of the placement of the concrete slabs, a headstone. I seem to remember from somewhere that there were concrete slabs placed all around her, except for in front of her feet, which were situated toward to doors of the vehicle. So, they start at one foot and go up and over her head and down to the other foot -picture it: A headstone shape, if that is indeed what I read.

A woman's touch? Someone who cared about her?

rosesfromangels
02-20-2012, 08:51 AM
@fridaybaker

Ahhh...yes, the tombstone scenario makes sense. I didn't, however, hear anything that would suggest two perps involved, or anything that strongly suggested one was a woman. What leads you to that? I know her Cousin has this theory based on jealousy. Can we get more info on that?

Do we know how big the town was back in 1967? How many people. What social activities was this young woman involved in? Was she a cheerleader, popular at school? What did she do in her spare time?

-Roses

fridaybaker
02-20-2012, 09:38 AM
@fridaybaker

Ahhh...yes, the tombstone scenario makes sense. I didn't, however, hear anything that would suggest two perps involved, or anything that strongly suggested one was a woman. What leads you to that? I know her Cousin has this theory based on jealousy. Can we get more info on that?

Do we know how big the town was back in 1967? How many people. What social activities was this young woman involved in? Was she a cheerleader, popular at school? What did she do in her spare time?

-Roses

Actually, I mainly mentioned the woman angle because of what her cousin mentioned. I think maybe a woman, especially 50 or so years ago, might do that type of arranging at the scene, especially if the murder was one of jealously. (Has to get rid of her -maybe her competition in romance?- but outside of that issue, knows and likes her?)

I do think that just the fact that there was no sexual assault also speaks to perhaps a woman perpetrator because I think if it were related to romance/sexual aggression, etc., there would have been something, even if just clothing removed, etc. What are the motives for a man murdering her sans the sexual one? It doesn't look like a robbery to me -why go to the trouble to "arrange" anything? Retribution for a man would usually go back to a sexual theme. "Thrill" killing was highly unusual then.

I don't know, but that's where a woman might come in for me, except for the fact that concrete blocks would need either a man or two people, wouldn't they?

fridaybaker
02-20-2012, 09:43 AM
Rosesfromangels, the questions you ask above are excellent. We need a complete idea of who this young woman was and the context in which she lived. I hope her cousin can fill us in here.

rosesfromangels
02-20-2012, 11:10 AM
@fridaybaker

I'm still not getting woman perp out of this, but I'll be interested in hearing more detail from her Cousin, as per my questions previously. Your point of a woman most likely not being able to quickly move the concrete around...good point. I would also think that gender could be somewhat determined by the depth of the wounds, and penetration of bone. (Sorry to be so graphic). If the wounds were deeper and went through bone, then it would suggest the strength of a man.

With regard to the "tombstones." This is really interesting from a symbolic/ritual standpoint, but it also suggests that either these pieces of concrete were staged and ready to go (premeditation), or that the Perp came back after the murder to place them. Otherwise, it would seem like a long time to be lingering around a crime scene arranging this concrete.

I am going to do a little digging around to see if I can find any culture/rituals that bury the dead in this manner. Interesting discussion @fridaybaker. Thank you for engaging, and helping me think deeper.

OldSteve
02-20-2012, 11:36 AM
Posing and arranging a body seems to be exclusively a male perp thing - correct me if I'm wrong...

ETA: changing my though on this to saying that the elaborate staging in this case seems very much like something a sicko man might do - can't recall a woman ever doing something so bazaar.

fridaybaker
02-20-2012, 12:28 PM
Okay, rosesfromangels and oldsteve, I'm off to ponder some.....

Also, I've never heard that posing/arranging is a "male" thing but I do agree that wound depth, etc. might indicate male vs. female.

I'm feeling waaay out of my depth here!

McSpy
02-21-2012, 01:08 AM
Yes I do know. Is all I can tell you is it is more than the papers reported. She was stabbed in her chest, neck and minor cuts to her forehead as when the perp slashed at her face I'll bet she was fighting to protect her face. Your right about the relationship to the referred case, I too do not believe any connection other than the stabbing itself. I know the I.D. show your talking about, I too saw that last week. I believe when there is no sexual assault that is exactly the profile of the perp (the stabbing is his sex with his victim). Then in other cases I believe it's a personal crime, jealousy, revenge, deep anger. Stabbing over and over is personal to the perp in different ways. Mary Ellen's was personal !!!!!!! Someone local, someone she knew, over jealousy, more than one killer and I always felt maybe a woman was involved too.

Interesting that you think it was possible a woman may have been involved. This came to mind when I read through this thread. Was Mary's date a first date? Perhaps, an ex-girlfriend or an admirer of Mary's date was involved. Is Mary's date still available for the police to question?

McSpy
02-21-2012, 01:18 AM
Actually, I mainly mentioned the woman angle because of what her cousin mentioned. I think maybe a woman, especially 50 or so years ago, might do that type of arranging at the scene, especially if the murder was one of jealously. (Has to get rid of her -maybe her competition in romance?- but outside of that issue, knows and likes her?)

I do think that just the fact that there was no sexual assault also speaks to perhaps a woman perpetrator because I think if it were related to romance/sexual aggression, etc., there would have been something, even if just clothing removed, etc. What are the motives for a man murdering her sans the sexual one? It doesn't look like a robbery to me -why go to the trouble to "arrange" anything? Retribution for a man would usually go back to a sexual theme. "Thrill" killing was highly unusual then.

I don't know, but that's where a woman might come in for me, except for the fact that concrete blocks would need either a man or two people, wouldn't they?

Maybe, the police haven't solved this, because they assumed a man did it. They could have been looking in all the wrong places. I find it interesting that she was very excited about a date that evening, but winds up dead before going on that date.

McSpy
02-21-2012, 01:28 AM
Mary's mother rented out rooms in her house for $35. per month. I'm assuming police checked out the tenants.

rosesfromangels
02-21-2012, 01:34 AM
I just spent the last several hours doing research on this...whew! I learned a couple things. First, yes...it does appear there is some "ritual" aspect to the killing, but I'm sure I'm stating the obvious. I spent alot of time reading about various "alternative" groups that have rituals that involve sacrifice, stones, etc. I had to stop after a while because it was really very disturbing, but I did learn enough to believe this girl's murder involved someone who practised these rituals, and perhaps someone who was associated with a "respected" but "shrouded" society?(If a dagger was used, this would be a strong connection.) Second, I found the names of 12 other woman murdered in Wisconsin in the mid 60's/early 70's who were all from child age to early 20's. I looked on a map and couldnt see a real location cluster of any kind, but they were certainly within driving range within a few hours I believe. They are:
Diane Adam/Death: Oct 23, 1974, Watertown - Lillian Crawford/Death:6-4-63, Plainfield - Terri Lee Erdmann:6-24-71, Milwaukee - Joanne Esser: May 1979, Antigo - Lisa A. French:1973/Fond du Lac - Ninfa Lissa Gordon: 8-18-72, Milwaukee - Valie Ann Guzman & her step sister Suzanne Pillar: Aug 19, 1978, Mequon - Kathleen Leightman: Jul 1976/Milwaukee - Irene Mursa: 7-3-61, Merrill - Judy Myrick: 1967, Washington - Mary K. Schlais: December 1974

I'm having a hard time finding any old articles on these murders. Any suggestions on where to look? I'm looking for common traits. I did notice most of them happened in the summer time, but maybe that holds true statistically for most murders?

A start.
-Rosesfromangels

McSpy
02-21-2012, 01:40 AM
I noticed in one of the articles posted that the concrete slabs were actually blocks. Was it determined where these concrete blocks came from? Could they have been used by the impound lot to place rimless or tireless cars on? According to one of the news articles, tires were once stored in the hearse. Could the concrete blocks have been there before she was placed in the hearse? Also, were the windows of the hearse clear? Could people see inside easily? Was it possible someone was trying to block the view of the body with the concrete blocks?

rosesfromangels
02-21-2012, 01:45 AM
@McSpy - hmmm....the tennants. Interesting. The Cousin and others have brought up the concept of jealousy, but have attached it to a jealous female rival. What if it *was* jealousy, but a GUY who had a thing for her? "If I can't have you....no one will!" This is a common guy thing.

rosesfromangels
02-21-2012, 01:47 AM
@McSpy - those blocks could have been used to stop the cars from rolling/moving as well. I'm looking forward to hearing more details from the decedant's Cousin. As much detail as possible will be great!

McSpy
02-21-2012, 02:05 AM
Interesting small article:

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkillers/K/KENOSHA_murders.php

rosesfromangels
02-21-2012, 11:04 AM
@McSpy - Holy Smokes! That is crazy stuff! Thank you for finding that. I would think Kenosha would make a very interesting expose, to say the least! I'm sure they'd prefer to avoid that type of spotlight, but wow!

I'd like to see a spreadsheet with all sorts of stats for comparison. Birth dates, death dates, physical characteristics, time of death, weather conditions, condition of murder scenes, characteristics of the crime, etc. Their MUST be some patterns that would emerge. Far too many to consider coincidence.

McSpy or anyone else - do we know if things have been quiet since this spate of crime up to 1981? If so, we could deduce that either the Perp or Perp(s):
1. moved 2. are in jail for something, perhaps unrelated 3. died

I'd look at all the residents during that timeframe and see if they fit the above criteria.

This is really an interesting case. Still waiting to hear more details from the Decedant's Cousin.

BTW - based on the wounds, I would *not* think this was a woman. A jealous, murdering woman would have wanted to disfigure the face.

McSpy
02-22-2012, 12:02 AM
@McSpy - Holy Smokes! That is crazy stuff! Thank you for finding that. I would think Kenosha would make a very interesting expose, to say the least! I'm sure they'd prefer to avoid that type of spotlight, but wow!

I'd like to see a spreadsheet with all sorts of stats for comparison. Birth dates, death dates, physical characteristics, time of death, weather conditions, condition of murder scenes, characteristics of the crime, etc. Their MUST be some patterns that would emerge. Far too many to consider coincidence.

McSpy or anyone else - do we know if things have been quiet since this spate of crime up to 1981? If so, we could deduce that either the Perp or Perp(s):
1. moved 2. are in jail for something, perhaps unrelated 3. died

I'd look at all the residents during that timeframe and see if they fit the above criteria.

This is really an interesting case. Still waiting to hear more details from the Decedant's Cousin.

BTW - based on the wounds, I would *not* think this was a woman. A jealous, murdering woman would have wanted to disfigure the face.

I wonder if LE kept tabs on the renters, who lived in the family's home and Mary's friends and acquaintances. If not, maybe one or two turned into troubled adults, who are worth checking out.

rosesfromangels
02-22-2012, 12:12 AM
@McSpy - You are definately on to something there regarding the Renters. Aside from clearing the Boyfriend, the Renters and her Teachers, Coaches, Instructors of any sort (any one who had close contact with her), should have been next on the checkoff list. I'm waiting to see what feedback her Cousin can give us on all these theories.

McSpy
02-22-2012, 12:41 AM
I checked out the ancestry.com message board on Mary. There was some additional info on Mary and her family. Also, apparently Mary's ex-boyfriend was a suspect. I wonder if there were any news articles on that? I'd like to see the details.

rosesfromangels
02-22-2012, 11:31 AM
@McSpy - Yes, a boyfriend or husband is always top of the Suspect list. In this case, I thought I read the Cousin stating that he had been 100% cleared? Cousin - is that correct? Regardless, it would be interesting to track what he has been up to since her passing. Has he kept out of trouble, been to jail, etc.

Along that line of thinking...was there any thought given to this murder being attached to him? Meaning, he might not have committed the crime, but it was committed to harm him in the worse possible way by taking his lovely girlfriend?
I know that is far reaching, but this sort of thing should always be considered.

I'm still waiting to hear why the Cousin thought the motive was jealousy. The placement of the concrete has all the hallmarks of a ritual.

Still_Seek_Answers
02-22-2012, 03:51 PM
Hugssss Help,
I miss our talks and you need to call me....please. I am delighted to see this case in the spotlight. Heaven knows after all these years it is time it received the attention needed.
Personally I see this murder more of a crime of chance. Nobody knew Mary was going to decide to walk to the store the night. This was not part of her regular routine. So whoever grabbed her had to have been someone who happened to see her out. I also do not see this as any type of ritual killing. (JMO) I believe the slabs, or blocks were placed there to help conceal the crime, and for no other reason. (AJMO) I think she was placed in the hearse because it was handy and I think whoever did this knew her. (The shoes) Somebody who did not know her would not have taken the time, or care, to place them beside her. I think this was an attempted sexual assault that turned into a murder. All of my thoughts could be incorrect. I do think this killer had killed before. Maybe was even involved in some of the other killings,

helpthevictims
02-22-2012, 09:30 PM
THANK YOU WS FOR FEATURING MARY ELLENS CASE. WOW, WOW, WOW to all of you who have been posting thoughts and theories. BTW I am Mary Ellen's cousin. I just found out this was to be featured and went on and am blown away. I wish I could reply to all of the questions this second. I promise this....First thing 2moro morning I will get my coffee and re-read and reply to all of these very interesting comments and questions. So if anyone else has any other questions you would like me to respond to now please post them and I'll be on all morning. I don't like to put this out there as I want no pity but my health is not good and unfortunately I am unable to get on as often as I would like. Thank you Kimster for emailing me & letting me know you were featuring Mary Ellen. Your all so wonderful and I so appreciate each and every one of you that take the time to care and try to help. Your all amazing souls. I hold all of you close in my heart. Thank you & I'll be talking to you all 2moro morning.

mamashawn
02-23-2012, 12:28 AM
Yes, I know!!!!!! How about that info. Since 1995 he has been posting on Ancestry.com that he is a writer looking for info on her murder. He has asked for pictures and also specifically looking for a friend of hers from the 60's. Then states he needs one more piece of information to finalize his research and he will reveal the killer. Interesting. The problem I have with this is then why hasn't he taken his information to the police, which I know for a fact he has not!!!!!!! If I already knew who the killer was I sure would pass that information over to the detectives. Oh and he states that he himself knew her, he says he was a good friend of her brother Eddie growing up. He is a local of Kenosha, WI.


Has anyone ever checked out Robert Crane? I did a search for "Robert Crane writer kenosha wisconsin" and came up with nothing relevant. Is her brother Eddie still around to confirm their friendship? :waitasec:

rosesfromangels
02-23-2012, 03:47 PM
Yes, this is a HUGE red flag! Anyone posting information stating they have insider information about the murder, and hasn't been forthcoming with the police....is a SUSPECT.

This guy, whoever the heck he is (if he even *is* a guy), needs to be tracked down. Posting stuff on Ancestor.com and asking for pics, etc. is completely inappropriate. Either he is an insensitive, clueless a*s, or he is trying to make a buck off of this tragedy. Either way, I would consider him a SUSPECT until he clears himself.

SMH,
Rose

helpthevictims
02-23-2012, 06:11 PM
I checked out the ancestry.com message board on Mary. There was some additional info on Mary and her family. Also, apparently Mary's ex-boyfriend was a suspect. I wonder if there were any news articles on that? I'd like to see the details.
no there are none. He was completely cleared, that comes first hand from the police.

helpthevictims
02-23-2012, 06:27 PM
@McSpy - Yes, a boyfriend or husband is always top of the Suspect list. In this case, I thought I read the Cousin stating that he had been 100% cleared? Cousin - is that correct? Regardless, it would be interesting to track what he has been up to since her passing. Has he kept out of trouble, been to jail, etc.

Along that line of thinking...was there any thought given to this murder being attached to him? Meaning, he might not have committed the crime, but it was committed to harm him in the worse possible way by taking his lovely girlfriend?
I know that is far reaching, but this sort of thing should always be considered.

I'm still waiting to hear why the Cousin thought the motive was jealousy. The placement of the concrete has all the hallmarks of a ritual.
This crime to me seemed so personal with rage and anger. I felt it could have been an exgirlfriend of Mary Ellens current boyfriend. Perhaps she was so jealous she wanted her dead and found someone to help her do it. One reason I felt a woman could have been involved is because of her shoes so neatly placed next to her body in the hearse. A guy would have never done that. I think it was someone she knew and willingly got in the car with them perhaps to "talk" if this were a rival. The perps would have created a roos of some sort and they took her to the police impound lot and drug her to the hearse. Thats when and why her shoes would have come off. I think it would have taken two people to have done this. Or the other way around. Perhaps someone that had a thing for her and she blew him off. Or she saw or knew something she wasn't supposed to. Is all I do know is he/she/they were evil, had a vendictive and mean streak in them and for whatever their personal reasons in their sick minds they believed she had to go, she had to die. It doesn't have to be because they were in some satanic group. There are no rumors of any such group in that area. At the time of the murder the police focused their questioning on all the kids she knew, hung out with, school kids, etc. It had to be someone local that knew that hearse had just been taken there a few weeks prior. Thank you for your interest and thoughts.

helpthevictims
02-23-2012, 06:35 PM
Interesting small article:

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkillers/K/KENOSHA_murders.php
Thank you for going to the trouble to post this article. It is pretty strange. but I don't think it has anything to do with Mary Ellen. Each of these crimes are very different in many ways but if i lived there I don't think I would walk that area.

helpthevictims
02-23-2012, 06:36 PM
@McSpy - You are definately on to something there regarding the Renters. Aside from clearing the Boyfriend, the Renters and her Teachers, Coaches, Instructors of any sort (any one who had close contact with her), should have been next on the checkoff list. I'm waiting to see what feedback her Cousin can give us on all these theories.
Very good points and I know the police have looked closely at all interactions she had. I too had from the beginning wondered about the borders in their home. Have never heard however that any of them were suspects.

helpthevictims
02-23-2012, 06:41 PM
@McSpy - Holy Smokes! That is crazy stuff! Thank you for finding that. I would think Kenosha would make a very interesting expose, to say the least! I'm sure they'd prefer to avoid that type of spotlight, but wow!

I'd like to see a spreadsheet with all sorts of stats for comparison. Birth dates, death dates, physical characteristics, time of death, weather conditions, condition of murder scenes, characteristics of the crime, etc. Their MUST be some patterns that would emerge. Far too many to consider coincidence.

McSpy or anyone else - do we know if things have been quiet since this spate of crime up to 1981? If so, we could deduce that either the Perp or Perp(s):
1. moved 2. are in jail for something, perhaps unrelated 3. died

I'd look at all the residents during that timeframe and see if they fit the above criteria.

This is really an interesting case. Still waiting to hear more details from the Decedant's Cousin.

BTW - based on the wounds, I would *not* think this was a woman. A jealous, murdering woman would have wanted to disfigure the face.
Her face was stabbed, 3 times, however not deep and more like cuts. I think her arms could have been being held down while a 2nd perp did the stabbing. She had no defensive wounds on her hands!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

helpthevictims
02-23-2012, 06:49 PM
@McSpy - hmmm....the tennants. Interesting. The Cousin and others have brought up the concept of jealousy, but have attached it to a jealous female rival. What if it *was* jealousy, but a GUY who had a thing for her? "If I can't have you....no one will!" This is a common guy thing.
EXACTLY......What if it were both. He wanted Mary Ellen, she wasn't interested or had been and blew him off, now she just a B!+@$, he's complaining to the exgirlfriend of Mary Ellen's current boyfriend, now they both hate her. She's got to go, she just destroys everyones lives, she deserves to die. So they do it, they kill her. Sounds very, very plausible. This to me was planned, they knew what they wanted to do and where they were going to do it, they just had to wait for the right moment to find her alone and unfortunately they did. Feb 9, 1967 after 8:30pm when she left to go buy hairspray at the drugstore.

helpthevictims
02-23-2012, 07:01 PM
I noticed in one of the articles posted that the concrete slabs were actually blocks. Was it determined where these concrete blocks came from? Could they have been used by the impound lot to place rimless or tireless cars on? According to one of the news articles, tires were once stored in the hearse. Could the concrete blocks have been there before she was placed in the hearse? Also, were the windows of the hearse clear? Could people see inside easily? Was it possible someone was trying to block the view of the body with the concrete blocks?
Yes they were concrete block and yes from the yard. there werent side windows toward the back of the hearse. There is a picture of it in one of the articles I posted earlier in the thread I think page 2, I believe they were placed around her to conceal her and there was a broken piece of concrete on her abdomen, I think they were trying to hide her. It goes to show how immiature and not very well thought out of a crime. They knew what they wanted to do and they knew where they were going to do it but the covering of her with the concrete whether blocks or slap pieces can sometimes indicate shame on the part of the perp, the covering of a body. I am sure once it was over they could have thought "What did we just do" !? Ya know. There have been many cases I have read about referring to this way of thinking on the part of the murderer. Afterward they have feelings of shame and therefore cover the body with something.

helpthevictims
02-23-2012, 07:19 PM
@McSpy - hmmm....the tennants. Interesting. The Cousin and others have brought up the concept of jealousy, but have attached it to a jealous female rival. What if it *was* jealousy, but a GUY who had a thing for her? "If I can't have you....no one will!" This is a common guy thing.
EXACTLY........Was he one of her previous bo's or was interested and she blew him off. Now he's complaining to the exgirlfriend of Mary Ellens current boyfriend. They are both angry and hurt, raging inside, "she's just a big B!$#%, she destroys everyones lives, she thinks she so hot, she's got to go, I wish she were dead". Can't you just hear it? So they decide their going to scare her, scar her or to actually kill her, they know where their going to do it, they wait to see her out and about or get her to come out and meet em, maybe a roos or to talk, whatever. They cruise in the car and take her to the police impound lot, it's 8:30pm, dark, no ones around it's Feb, freezing cold out. Mary Ellen realizes she's in trouble and goes to run, maybe because they pull out the knife, they drag her to the hearse, she looses her shoes, they put her in the back, He strattles her, the female perp is in the front seat holding her arms down, He stabs her over and over and over, slashes at her face thinkin your not so pretty anymore are you, the deed is done, they panic, find the blocks cover her up with them and the girl neatly lays her shoes next to her body. OR maybe they drug her to the hearse and were simply going to cut her face (she had three slash marks to her face re: autopsy) then the guy goes crazy and just starts stabbing her never intending originally to kill her but it goes too far. Either way it started and we know how it ended and they got away with murder for 44 years. Sounds very plausible to me. I feel like I want to throw up......

helpthevictims
02-23-2012, 07:22 PM
Hepthevictims, do you know if Mary Ellen's murder and the murders in Pewaukee were ever considered to be related to the unsolved University of Wisconsin/Madison, WI murders, sometimes called the Capital City Murders?

WI - Serial Killer From 1968 Until ? - Page 8 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3431154)

Some of the young female victims were also brutally stabbed in the chest area. I haven't seen anything that matches the hearse or the concrete blocks, but then I haven't researched the cases in depth yet, either.
The police definetly looked at serial killers deeply then and over the years, but their investigation lead them away due to details of Mary Ellens crime.

helpthevictims
02-23-2012, 07:31 PM
I would like to know more about this original Suspect that the news article mentions. How old was he? What did he do for a living? They say that she knew him, and had quarrelled in the past....what about? Had they dated? Was she pregnant? Was he stalking her and did she rebuff him? They reference him having been given a polygraph...did he fail? He moved away...is he still alive? Perhaps he would be willing to share his recollections with an investigative reporter, or the police? After all, if he *is* innocent, I'm sure he'd want to help in any way. Right? By the tone of the paper, it sure sounds like they thought they had found their man. What happened...not enough evidence, or?
The article you are referring to is an article I have been looking for. Could you help me locate it or post the link if you have it. Thank you so much.

Mary Ellen definetly was not pregnant re:confirmed-autopsy

helpthevictims
02-23-2012, 07:34 PM
If there is something specific, you would like for us to speculate on and or make assumptions about a possible connection/explanation please post it.

I don't recall reading about the time of day when all of this occurred other than it occurred during evening.
Was it around Dusk on that evening, between 5 and 6 pm When she left and went to the corner store?


No it's just that I would never name a potential suspect publicly. It would be wrong and slanderous to those potentially innocent as well as interferring with an ongoing case.

helpthevictims
02-23-2012, 07:42 PM
Great ideas here! However, although I think that your idea regarding a fixation on death/the macbre is very possible, I also think that the crime scene could be looked at like this: Whoever did this (and here I'm thinking of a previous poster's thoughts on a woman being involved -sorry, can't find the exact post right now- ) maybe instead of being fixated on death, was "fixated" or at least sought out this specific victim, and then "gave her a funeral", because she/he was close to the victim in some way.

The hearse, the shoes off, and from what I understand of the placement of the concrete slabs, a headstone. I seem to remember from somewhere that there were concrete slabs placed all around her, except for in front of her feet, which were situated toward to doors of the vehicle. So, they start at one foot and go up and over her head and down to the other foot -picture it: A headstone shape, if that is indeed what I read.

A woman's touch? Someone who cared about her?
@Fridaybaker........You have been paying attention and you nailed it. Atleast that's what I believe. Too bad they couldn't have proved it.

helpthevictims
02-23-2012, 07:46 PM
:rose: Mary Ellen is our featured cold case from 2/19 - 2/26/12 :rose:

Are there any pictures of her available? If someone posts one here, please PM me and I'll copy it to the front page.

:hug:
Kimster, I have been working on a picture for a while and I finally located one today. Unfortunately It won't arrive in time while the case is being featured but when I get it I will let you know and check on where I could post it. Thank you so much for featuring this case. 44 years for this case to have never seen justice is 44 yrs too long. I love this site. Your all wonderful.

helpthevictims
02-23-2012, 08:15 PM
@fridaybaker

Ahhh...yes, the tombstone scenario makes sense. I didn't, however, hear anything that would suggest two perps involved, or anything that strongly suggested one was a woman. What leads you to that? I know her Cousin has this theory based on jealousy. Can we get more info on that?

Do we know how big the town was back in 1967? How many people. What social activities was this young woman involved in? Was she a cheerleader, popular at school? What did she do in her spare time?

-Roses
Kenosha in 1967 had a population of approx 50,000 people but it was the kind of town that eveyone knew everyone and their business. There was "talk" at the time of Mary Ellens death so it was freely discussed and rumors flew. We all know that police start looking closest to home of a victim, who they knew, socialized with, lifestyle, etc. and that is exactly what they did. Therefore certain names were put out there and theories were expressed. Why do I think a woman was involved? well honestly it was almost from the begininning like a premonition in my head, just sort of came into my thoughts and would never leave. I just looked at how personal this crime was and those dang shoes. So neatly next to her body. I profiled many many many different types of people who could have done this including serial killers. I even had one in mind, but.......I always felt it could have had something to do with a woman, a friend, a jealous friend. I thought perhaps 2 people because she had no defensive wounds. And then there was this. Once I began working with the detectives I was told something that spun my head and caused me to BELIEVE it had to do with a woman. I want to say this with caution and care. I would never speak ill of Mary Ellen and I don't think it was meant to be as a put down of her character. I am not going to use his exact words but the bottem line is he implied she was "popular" with the boys, he said she was "hot". Mary Ellens father died when she was just a very little girl, I think 4 and they didn't have much money, her mother as many of you have read, had to rent out the upstairs bedrooms to borders to make ends meet. The fact that she had a date on a school night (thursday Feb 9, 1967) and she left the house after dark at 8:30 to go downtown to the drugstore prior to her date tells me she probably had quite a bit of freedom. And.......what teenage girl tells her mom everything, especially about their private lives. So between a "feeling" I had from the beginning and looking at her life told me she could have put herself into situations that could warrant jealousy and betrayel of one of her girlfriends and/or exboyfriends. That is primarily what I have always based my personal feeling on all of it from. The whole situation is just so very sad. She was just a 17 yr old girl probably not too different from any of us from single parent homes that want to be loved and trust those we shouldn't and in her case I believe this could have been what got her killed.

helpthevictims
02-23-2012, 08:20 PM
Rosesfromangels, the questions you ask above are excellent. We need a complete idea of who this young woman was and the context in which she lived. I hope her cousin can fill us in here.
Thank you, please read my post on page 4, #104. I hope I have clarified some things.

helpthevictims
02-23-2012, 08:55 PM
Well everyone I hope I was able to answer all your questions. I promised I would. Bottem line for me is I think this crime was committed by two people. A man and a woman for all the reasons I have stated throughout this thread. To recap: It's clearly personal, full of deep anger, feelings of betrayel, deep rage by someone she knew due to the abandoned hearse of only 3 weeks, the shoes, the slashes to her face and I will finally tell you all that Mary Ellen was actually stabbed 20 times!!!!! It was total Overkill. The stabbing that probably actually killed her was either to her jugler vein in her neck or one of the two stab wounds to her heart. Given 20 total and as you all know the rest were in her neck and chest. This killer went completely crazy and just kept stabbing her till she was dead. (It is very difficult to be so graphic) I knew when I started this personal investigation that I could end up finding out that whomever killed Mary Ellen could be deceased. I kept praying that would not be the case. I want nothing more than to see a murderer to serve out the rest of their lives behind bars and to never see the light of day again. We are NOT giving up, However I can tell you that I recently was told by the police they feel they know who did this to Mary Ellen and have not been able to prove it and unfortunately now that person is deceased. If this person did kill Mary Ellen I can only hope they are faced with the very first paragraph I wrote in this thread. That they are facing a much worse punishment than they ever would have faced here on earth. God's punishment. So instead of entering the gates of prison perhaps they took the road toward God and was told to make a U turn infront of the pearly gates. This story is not over. I want the details. I want to know why the police believe this person is her murderer. I want to know why they couldn't get a conviction. I want to know why this case was never turned over to the FBI. I started out wanting answers and I am determined to continue to search for answers. Thank you all for offering your thoughts, theories and prayers for Mary Ellen. What kind of person does this? Evil, that's who........What a sick world it has become. The only positive out of any of this I see is she's an angel in heaven, and she can never be hurt again. I feel very sad

rosesfromangels
02-23-2012, 09:26 PM
@help the Victims - Thank you for posting all the detail, and God Bless You. I know how difficult this is for you. We have something in common; my Cousin was found murdered on Valentine's Day too in 1997, but we did know who it was. I have never gotten over this, and for many years I refused to acknowlege Valentines Day at all. Then last year (after 14 years!) I decided I wasn't going to let evil win. In her honour, I make sure I let everyone I love know how very much they mean to me...especially on Valentine's Day.

After all the information you provided, I would say that the top suspects are any of her ex boyfriends, ex girlfriends of the guy she was dating at the time she passed away, and the tennants in the house where she lived. That's where I would (re)start. This much I do know. That's a small town, and was even smaller back then. Somone talked. Somone knows....SOMEONE KNOWS SOMETHING. I promise you that. If your family can all afford to chip in together, I would hire a private investigator to go work with the Police and reinvestigate this. Much has changed in the many years since this case was first looked at. We are so much more sophisticated in our approach, and have science that we didn't back then.

@McSpy - do you have the article that the Cousin is asking for? I think it was you that posted it?

Cousin - God Bless You. You are in my Prayers. I really really really think you can get answers on this. They sit hidden with that little town. Now put the pressure on, and get someone to ease their conscience.

helpthevictims
02-23-2012, 09:32 PM
@help the Victims - Thank you for posting all the detail, and God Bless You. I know how difficult this is for you. We have something in common; my Cousin was found murdered on Valentine's Day too in 1997, but we did know who it was. I have never gotten over this, and for many years I refused to acknowlege Valentines Day at all. Then last year (after 14 years!) I decided I wasn't going to let evil win. In her honour, I make sure I let everyone I love know how very much they mean to me...especially on Valentine's Day.

After all the information you provided, I would say that the top suspects are any of her ex boyfriends, ex girlfriends of the guy she was dating at the time she passed away, and the tennants in the house where she lived. That's where I would (re)start. This much I do know. That's a small town, and was even smaller back then. Somone talked. Somone knows....SOMEONE KNOWS SOMETHING. I promise you that. If your family can all afford to chip in together, I would hire a private investigator to go work with the Police and reinvestigate this. Much has changed in the many years since this case was first looked at. We are so much more sophisticated in our approach, and have science that we didn't back then.

@McSpy - do you have the article that the Cousin is asking for? I think it was you that posted it?

Cousin - God Bless You. You are in my Prayers. I really really really think you can get answers on this. They sit hidden with that little town. Now put the pressure on, and get someone to ease their conscience.
Thank you for all that. Yes, that is what I am banking on, people KNOW. I think they have been afraid to talk. And I am the family detective LOL I was just checking to see who posted that article I havent' seen, so thanks its McSpy, good. So sorry to hear about of common unfortunate circumstance, it's so sad that there are so many evil people in the world. Glad to see you find some level of peace and to overcome the negative of that day. God bless you too my friend.

rosesfromangels
02-23-2012, 09:36 PM
@helpthevictims,

Just read your last post. Thank you for sharing the detail about Mary Ellen's life, and her popularity. This is making more and more sense, and I suspect your intuition is correct. If she were a "hottie" as the kids would say and perhaps a bit of a heartbreaker, then should would certainly inspire jealousy and rage. My Cousin was gorgeous, and had a flock of men. Ultimately, one of them killed her for the reasoning of "if I can't have you, no one will." So, your scenario makes alot of sense now. Actually, it could have been TWO WOMEN?! That said, I don't think women tend to kill with knives? I don't know the stats on that. Again, thank you for sharing such painful details. I do understand what type of bravery it takes to do this. Bless you, and a big loving hug.
-Rose

rosesfromangels
02-23-2012, 09:40 PM
@helpthevictims - you WILL find out. Someone is going to TALK. Put the pressure on! And yes, 20 stab wounds is rage, rage, rage. Were any of the suspects know to have mutilated/killed animals as a child? A typical flag...

helpthevictims
02-23-2012, 09:51 PM
@helpthevictims - you WILL find out. Someone is going to TALK. Put the pressure on! And yes, 20 stab wounds is rage, rage, rage. Were any of the suspects know to have mutilated/killed animals as a child? A typical flag...
not sure of that. I am trying to nail down the identity of this person and therefore will be able to definetly get details of their lives. Given the way Mary Ellen was murdered I bet this person did lots of wierd creepy things and was probably know to be a bully and that is why no one has ever come forward.

KariKae
02-23-2012, 10:46 PM
I keep going back to the renters.

Was there possibly a renter who was previously homeless? Perhaps he knew about the hearse because that's where he used to sleep. A renter would be somebody Mary Ellen knew and she might have accepted a ride from. The renter might know of her unplanned trip to the store and seized the opportunity.

To stab somebody, you have to be close to them. You are a foot from their face. The same would be true of the individual holding her down. The perp would be looking in her eyes as it happened.

IDK - I just can't imagine a high school rival doing that. But then, again, I am often shocked at what people do to each other.

McSpy
02-24-2012, 03:04 AM
Her face was stabbed, 3 times, however not deep and more like cuts. I think her arms could have been being held down while a 2nd perp did the stabbing. She had no defensive wounds on her hands!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sounds like they were toying with her too. The perp with the knife was probably talking the whole time.

McSpy
02-24-2012, 03:13 AM
Yes they were concrete block and yes from the yard. there werent side windows toward the back of the hearse. There is a picture of it in one of the articles I posted earlier in the thread I think page 2, I believe they were placed around her to conceal her and there was a broken piece of concrete on her abdomen, I think they were trying to hide her. It goes to show how immiature and not very well thought out of a crime. They knew what they wanted to do and they knew where they were going to do it but the covering of her with the concrete whether blocks or slap pieces can sometimes indicate shame on the part of the perp, the covering of a body. I am sure once it was over they could have thought "What did we just do" !? Ya know. There have been many cases I have read about referring to this way of thinking on the part of the murderer. Afterward they have feelings of shame and therefore cover the body with something.

I apologize if you have already answered this, but has a PI ever investigated this case? i think tracking down some of Mary Ellen's classmates and friends to see if there were rumors (that may be true) could lead to solving this crime. After all this time, someone may talk or have a change of heart about getting involved. If it was a case of jealousy and hate, the perp usually goes on and on about how they despise the person. Someone from back in 1967 may have a clue if Mary Ellen had enemies.

McSpy
02-24-2012, 03:17 AM
Kenosha in 1967 had a population of approx 50,000 people but it was the kind of town that eveyone knew everyone and their business. There was "talk" at the time of Mary Ellens death so it was freely discussed and rumors flew. We all know that police start looking closest to home of a victim, who they knew, socialized with, lifestyle, etc. and that is exactly what they did. Therefore certain names were put out there and theories were expressed. Why do I think a woman was involved? well honestly it was almost from the begininning like a premonition in my head, just sort of came into my thoughts and would never leave. I just looked at how personal this crime was and those dang shoes. So neatly next to her body. I profiled many many many different types of people who could have done this including serial killers. I even had one in mind, but.......I always felt it could have had something to do with a woman, a friend, a jealous friend. I thought perhaps 2 people because she had no defensive wounds. And then there was this. Once I began working with the detectives I was told something that spun my head and caused me to BELIEVE it had to do with a woman. I want to say this with caution and care. I would never speak ill of Mary Ellen and I don't think it was meant to be as a put down of her character. I am not going to use his exact words but the bottem line is he implied she was "popular" with the boys, he said she was "hot". Mary Ellens father died when she was just a very little girl, I think 4 and they didn't have much money, her mother as many of you have read, had to rent out the upstairs bedrooms to borders to make ends meet. The fact that she had a date on a school night (thursday Feb 9, 1967) and she left the house after dark at 8:30 to go downtown to the drugstore prior to her date tells me she probably had quite a bit of freedom. And.......what teenage girl tells her mom everything, especially about their private lives. So between a "feeling" I had from the beginning and looking at her life told me she could have put herself into situations that could warrant jealousy and betrayel of one of her girlfriends and/or exboyfriends. That is primarily what I have always based my personal feeling on all of it from. The whole situation is just so very sad. She was just a 17 yr old girl probably not too different from any of us from single parent homes that want to be loved and trust those we shouldn't and in her case I believe this could have been what got her killed.

When I read through the thread for the first time, a woman came to mind as the perp. I have the same feeling on it.

rosesfromangels
02-24-2012, 09:12 AM
@Karikae - Yes, we are often surprised by what seemingly normal people will do. Jealousy is a a powerful motivator for borderline types. As an example, think of that Mom who plotted to kill the teenage cheerleader who was her daughters rival! Remember that one? Unbelievable, but true.

rosesfromangels
02-24-2012, 09:13 AM
@McSpy - regarding a P.I. (re)interviewing her friends. That is the definately a great place to start. Sometimes the person that is the most jealous can be someone who is very close to us. Obsessed....
Creepy stuff.

rosesfromangels
02-24-2012, 10:23 PM
@helpthevictims
I went to Ancestry.com and read the board re: your Cousin. The man you mentioned, "Robert"...is listed at www.411.com (whitepages info) as being 62 years old and living in Kenosha. His assertions, and then lack of followup information is completely inappropriate. My first thought was that he was going to attempt to get something from your family. If not, he should be working with the police IMMEDIATELY, vs. trying to withold information to write some d*mn salacious book. You should have the police go question this man immediately. I would also caution your family members to be VERY careful what they post on that board, or elsewhere for that matter. There are losers out there who will try and profit from misfortune. Unless he proves himself otherwise, I am assuming "Robert" falls in to that category.

necco
02-25-2012, 01:19 AM
Forgive me if I do anything wrong, this is my first post. With the feeling that this may have been done by a man and a woman, I have a theory. Is it possible that this was some sort of boyfriend and girlfriend killing a prior love interest of the boyfriend in order to make their love "pure" like the Texas Cadet murder of Adrianne Jones? The cuts to the face (perhaps to make her less beautiful?), the overkill (rage?) of the stabbing and the configuration of the body in a hearse (going to wear she belongs (in their minds)?) all read like a revenge killing for a lover's triangle to me.

McSpy
02-25-2012, 01:55 AM
@helpthevictims
I went to Ancestry.com and read the board re: your Cousin. The man you mentioned, "Robert"...is listed at www.411.com (whitepages info) as being 62 years old and living in Kenosha. His assertions, and then lack of followup information is completely inappropriate. My first thought was that he was going to attempt to get something from your family. If not, he should be working with the police IMMEDIATELY, vs. trying to withold information to write some d*mn salacious book. You should have the police go question this man immediately. I would also caution your family members to be VERY careful what they post on that board, or elsewhere for that matter. There are losers out there who will try and profit from misfortune. Unless he proves himself otherwise, I am assuming "Robert" falls in to that category.

Wouldn't Mary Ellen be 62 years old today? Perhap, Mr. Crane attended the same high school and was a classmate.

McSpy
02-25-2012, 01:58 AM
Forgive me if I do anything wrong, this is my first post. With the feeling that this may have been done by a man and a woman, I have a theory. Is it possible that this was some sort of boyfriend and girlfriend killing a prior love interest of the boyfriend in order to make their love "pure" like the Texas Cadet murder of Adrianne Jones? The cuts to the face (perhaps to make her less beautiful?), the overkill (rage?) of the stabbing and the configuration of the body in a hearse (going to wear she belongs (in their minds)?) all read like a revenge killing for a lover's triangle to me.

I agree. It seems like jealousy was the driving force.

McSpy
02-25-2012, 02:03 AM
@McSpy - regarding a P.I. (re)interviewing her friends. That is the definately a great place to start. Sometimes the person that is the most jealous can be someone who is very close to us. Obsessed....
Creepy stuff.

I wonder if crime stoppers could help with a reward or with some publicity. Maybe, some posters can be distributed throughout the town. Sometimes a reminder of the crime will help push someone to call with a tip.

helpthevictims
02-25-2012, 02:02 PM
I keep going back to the renters.

Was there possibly a renter who was previously homeless? Perhaps he knew about the hearse because that's where he used to sleep. A renter would be somebody Mary Ellen knew and she might have accepted a ride from. The renter might know of her unplanned trip to the store and seized the opportunity.

To stab somebody, you have to be close to them. You are a foot from their face. The same would be true of the individual holding her down. The perp would be looking in her eyes as it happened.

IDK - I just can't imagine a high school rival doing that. But then, again, I am often shocked at what people do to each other.
jealousy is one of the oldest motivations to murder. I appreciate your thoughts but what do you believe a renters motive would be? There was no sexual assault of any type. I would venture to say that these borders were probably very poor and more than likely didn't even own cars. I'm sure the police checked all that out, but belive me they were lead to suspects for reasons being shared throught the town. I wondered about them too but no suspects there. thank you for you suggestions.

helpthevictims
02-25-2012, 02:08 PM
I apologize if you have already answered this, but has a PI ever investigated this case? i think tracking down some of Mary Ellen's classmates and friends to see if there were rumors (that may be true) could lead to solving this crime. After all this time, someone may talk or have a change of heart about getting involved. If it was a case of jealousy and hate, the perp usually goes on and on about how they despise the person. Someone from back in 1967 may have a clue if Mary Ellen had enemies.
Well that just it, they have. LE has had someone thru the years as the suspect(s) had "shot off their mouths" about it and that is what has led them to believe what they belive. I am trying to track that person down. You know who you are and I would be forever grateful if you were to contact me. There are questions I feel you could answer. Please, you are the key to all of this and I know you would be offered immunity with LE. I believe you already have been since you went to them with what you knew. Your my only hope. Please contact me through private message and from there I would give you my number. I feel no anger toward you. It's not your fault what happened. PLEASE.

helpthevictims
02-25-2012, 02:11 PM
Wouldn't Mary Ellen be 62 years old today? Perhap, Mr. Crane attended the same high school and was a classmate.
Yes and he was. He states he grew up with them and was friends with Mary Ellens brother. Robert Crane where are you????? Why won't you contact me? Why won't you contact LE? I would hope your motives are not just for profits of a book, but to offer the answers to this mystery. We should all be working together. PLEASE CONTACT ME ROBERT!!!!!!

helpthevictims
02-25-2012, 02:15 PM
I wonder if crime stoppers could help with a reward or with some publicity. Maybe, some posters can be distributed throughout the town. Sometimes a reminder of the crime will help push someone to call with a tip.
You nailed it. That exactly what I want to do. However there is a time and a place for everything. LE and I have discussed this and I will be making a trip there as soon as I am able. I stinks to have to be patient, believe me. You must have been a fly on the wall when I expressed what I wanted to do" LOL Thank you.

rosesfromangels
02-26-2012, 12:42 AM
@helpthevictims - May I suggest you contact the District Attorney's Office to discuss the possibility of bringing "Obstruction of Justice" charges against this individual as it relates to his involvement (and concealment) of crucial information related to this murder investigation. Further, you might look in to charges of "Intentional Infliction of Emotion Distress." What he has done is unconscionable;stating (and posting it all over the internet), that he knows who murdered your Cousin, and then not providing a name and details because he wants to profit from writing a d*mn book about it?! What a warped, horrible, human being. Get the District Attorney's office after this CREEP.

mamashawn
02-26-2012, 12:42 PM
@helpthevictims - May I suggest you contact the District Attorney's Office to discuss the possibility of bringing "Obstruction of Justice" charges against this individual as it relates to his involvement (and concealment) of crucial information related to this murder investigation. Further, you might look in to charges of "Intentional Infliction of Emotion Distress." What he has done is unconscionable;stating (and posting it all over the internet), that he knows who murdered your Cousin, and then not providing a name and details because he wants to profit from writing a d*mn book about it?! What a warped, horrible, human being. Get the District Attorney's office after this CREEP.


Yes and he was. He states he grew up with them and was friends with Mary Ellens brother. Robert Crane where are you????? Why won't you contact me? Why won't you contact LE? I would hope your motives are not just for profits of a book, but to offer the answers to this mystery. We should all be working together. PLEASE CONTACT ME ROBERT!!!!!!

Have LE contact him. His address and phone # can be found online. Rosesfromangels posted the link above.


I can't access the ancestry site, so I can't read the original posts, but you stated that he knew who the killer was, and he was also looking for another female classmate. What if he and the other classmate were the other two points of this (speculated) love triangle? Just my opinion.

Even if he's not, I agree what what I quoted first. His withholding information is NOT helping the case. And as far as I can tell, this "book" would be his first. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

McSpy
03-02-2012, 02:23 AM
Have LE contact him. His address and phone # can be found online. Rosesfromangels posted the link above.


I can't access the ancestry site, so I can't read the original posts, but you stated that he knew who the killer was, and he was also looking for another female classmate. What if he and the other classmate were the other two points of this (speculated) love triangle? Just my opinion.

Even if he's not, I agree what what I quoted first. His withholding information is NOT helping the case. And as far as I can tell, this "book" would be his first. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

I think LE should question him, but I don't think they can hold him on anything. Perhaps, he can be of help. LE has been stuck. It looks like he went to school with Mary Ellen, so I'm thinking he may have some insight LE needs to solve this case. Somebody said he could be charged with obstruction of justice. There is no proof of that and he could stay mute if he wishes. It is better to befriend him to see if he has anything worthwhile for LE to move this case forward.

mamashawn
03-02-2012, 09:35 AM
I think LE should question him, but I don't think they can hold him on anything. Perhaps, he can be of help. LE has been stuck. It looks like he went to school with Mary Ellen, so I'm thinking he may have some insight LE needs to solve this case. Somebody said he could be charged with obstruction of justice. There is no proof of that and he could stay mute if he wishes. It is better to befriend him to see if he has anything worthwhile for LE to move this case forward.

If he truly wanted this case solved why hasn't he shared what he knows with the police? He started posting that he had information--that he knew who murdered her--back in 95.

And IIRC, the cousin has contacted him trying to befriend him, but he has not responded.

I don't know if they could hold him for anything or charge him with anything specific, but I do know that his actions (or inactions) are suspicious.

Robin Hood
03-02-2012, 02:00 PM
I'm going to do more investigating but thought I'd mention John Norman Collins aka Chapman.
By all accounts he was a weird guy. He murdered a woman (who had just nipped out to post a letter) while on holiday in California as well as in the Michigan area.
Michigan murders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Robin Hood
03-03-2012, 04:42 AM
Some newspaper links that mention Mary Ellen

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=BEwaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=higEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5974,1543022&dq=mary+ellen+kaldenberg&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3QIqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=7icEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3614,1475002&dq=mary+ellen+kaldenberg&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=yHZQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EhEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7233,2056085&dq=mary+ellen+kaldenberg&hl=en

McSpy
03-04-2012, 08:52 PM
If he truly wanted this case solved why hasn't he shared what he knows with the police? He started posting that he had information--that he knew who murdered her--back in 95.

And IIRC, the cousin has contacted him trying to befriend him, but he has not responded.

I don't know if they could hold him for anything or charge him with anything specific, but I do know that his actions (or inactions) are suspicious.

He is definitely someone LE should question. He may have some insight or a tip for them. I just don't think he can be held on an obstruction of justice charge. I do agree that he does seem suspicious. Anyone, who writes a crime book likes contact with the family of the victim and/or perp for background info, leads, and context. According to what you have said, he hasn't contacted Mary Ellen's family in any way. How can someone write a good book without knowing everything about Mary Ellen? Perhaps, he is a novice or just bad at it?

McSpy
03-04-2012, 09:01 PM
I'm going to do more investigating but thought I'd mention John Norman Collins aka Chapman.
By all accounts he was a weird guy. He murdered a woman (who had just nipped out to post a letter) while on holiday in California as well as in the Michigan area.
Michigan murders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_murders)

This guy seems to fit somewhat as far as MO, especially the shoe placement. Although, there was no stabbing involved:

In late March 1969, Jane Mixer was found in Denton Cemetery, just off of Michigan Avenue, a few miles east of Ypsilanti, in Van Buren Township, Michigan. A law student at the University of Michigan, she had been shot and strangled. Her shoes and a copy of Joseph Heller's novel Catch-22 were placed by her side. Initially her death was thought to be related to this sequence of homicides; however, in 2005, 62-year-old Gary Leiterman, a former nurse, was convicted of murder in the death of Jane Mixer.[1][2]

McSpy
03-04-2012, 09:21 PM
Here is more on Gary Leiterman:

Leiterman grew up outside Detroit and lived near Ann Arbor as a young man. After a stint in the Navy, he had worked as a traveling pharmaceutical salesman in that region in the late 1960s.

http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkiller_news/L/LEITERMAN_gary.php

I wonder how big his sales region was at the time or if there would have been another reason he could have been in Wisconsin. Note that in the Jane Mixer murder, she was left in a cemetary. A hearse and a cemetary are symbols with the same meaning.

I could be way off on this, but there seems to be a similar MO.

lucasd
03-21-2012, 01:23 AM
Being a Kenosha resident when this happened and currently, I do not see a link between the cases. There were many bars and factories in the neighborhood, but in my opinion I believe that this was done with the involvement of a girl. My sister was Mary Ellens friend and according to her Mary was shy and it may be that someone did not like the idea of her having a boyfriend or that particular boyfriend.

McSpy
03-21-2012, 01:51 AM
Being a Kenosha resident when this happened and currently, I do not see a link between the cases. There were many bars and factories in the neighborhood, but in my opinion I believe that this was done with the involvement of a girl. My sister was Mary Ellens friend and according to her Mary was shy and it may be that someone did not like the idea of her having a boyfriend or that particular boyfriend.

Interesting . . .this was my intial feeling when I first read about this case. I had a feeling that a female committed this crime out of jealousy or envy of some sort. Did your sister have any idea who the girl may be? Did Mary ever make a comment to your sister about a particular girl acting mean or odd to her?

lucasd
03-21-2012, 11:04 PM
Interesting . . .this was my intial feeling when I first read about this case. I had a feeling that a female committed this crime out of jealousy or envy of some sort. Did your sister have any idea who the girl may be? Did Mary ever make a comment to your sister about a particular girl acting mean or odd to her?

My sister said that Mary Ellen was very shy but they did walk to school together when they went to Lincoln. They did not attend the same high school due to the district boundries so they did not see too much of each other after Jr. High. This has been haunting her since it happened. Although the town was small it was considered to be "little chicago" because it is situated between Milwaukee and Chicago. Kenosha is notorius for the amount of taverns especially in the area where Mary Ellen was discovered. I am trying to dig up as much information as I can because I believe the family deserves to know why this happened.

McSpy
03-22-2012, 12:58 AM
My sister said that Mary Ellen was very shy but they did walk to school together when they went to Lincoln. They did not attend the same high school due to the district boundries so they did not see too much of each other after Jr. High. This has been haunting her since it happened. Although the town was small it was considered to be "little chicago" because it is situated between Milwaukee and Chicago. Kenosha is notorius for the amount of taverns especially in the area where Mary Ellen was discovered. I am trying to dig up as much information as I can because I believe the family deserves to know why this happened.

Was there any rumors going around at the time of a suspect? Sometimes kids talk. Did your sister and Mary Ellen have mutual friends, who may know something or have an idea of may have happened?

I have a feeling the police were concentrating on a male as being the perp, because the murder happened in the early 60s. The thinking back then was old fashioned or pretty narrow sometimes, so they may not have thought about the possibility of a female being responsible.

shadowangel
03-22-2012, 09:39 PM
I just finished reading through the thread, and have a few random thoughts...

I'm passingly familiar with the murders of Sharon Malone and Cheryl Packard, mentioned in one of the posted articles in reference to Mary Ellen's murder. I had read about their case while researching the February 1966 murder of Debbie Fijan. As I recall, 27 year old (at the time) Robert Kramer--who had already been convicted of previous assaults in the area--was tried and convicted of their murder and thought to be involved in other stabbing murders in the area in the same time frame.

Robert Kramer is kinda (and uncomfortably) similar to Robert Crane, mentioned in previous posts as allegedly claiming to have inside knowledge of Mary Ellen's murder.

And while on the subject of Debbie Fijan, its hard not to mention Richard Otto Macek, whom we discussed in depth on Debbie's thread. Macek, though a resident of the Chicago, IL area, is known to have committed at least four murders in WI (one, at a hotel in Lake Geneva---some 30 or 40 miles from Kenosha). Macek was incarcerated in late '67, released in '71, and committed his first confirmed murder in '72. Some of us who have been researching the Debbie Fijan murder feel that he most likely starting killing after the death of his father in early '66.
Debbie was murdered almost one year to the day before Mary Ellen disappeared.
It's been mentioned in this thread that Mary Ellen had cuts on her face---Macek's signatures, if you will, were biting his victims and cutting the faces (specifically, around the eyes).

On another note, I personally feel that her being found in a hearse was incidental to her murder. The vehicle, a 1948 Packard, would have presented itself as a convenient location to hide Mary Ellen's body (or to commit the actual murder). These vehicles, converted to hearses by the Henney Auto Co, had cavernous interiors. Known as 3-way Side Service hearses, they had large doors on both sides (behind the driver and passenger doors) allowing the caskets to be placed inside from the sides as well as the back. This particular Packard had been painted white with blue lettering advertising a local tavern, and didn't present the typical ominous presence that we associate with a hearse.

lucasd
03-23-2012, 10:35 PM
Was there any rumors going around at the time of a suspect? Sometimes kids talk. Did your sister and Mary Ellen have mutual friends, who may know something or have an idea of may have happened?

I have a feeling the police were concentrating on a male as being the perp, because the murder happened in the early 60s. The thinking back then was old fashioned or pretty narrow sometimes, so they may not have thought about the possibility of a female being responsible.

My sister did not hear alot of rumors because they went to different high schools. My sister left the area shortly after this happened and lost touch with her friends from the area.

rosesfromangels
03-24-2012, 08:09 PM
Being a Kenosha resident when this happened and currently, I do not see a link between the cases. There were many bars and factories in the neighborhood, but in my opinion I believe that this was done with the involvement of a girl. My sister was Mary Ellens friend and according to her Mary was shy and it may be that someone did not like the idea of her having a boyfriend or that particular boyfriend.

Many of you keep going back to the strong instinct that jealousy was the motive, and that a female perp was involved. If this is the case, then the boyfriend at the time Mary Ellen was murdered must know who this is, or have a very good idea. I would like to hear that LE in Kenosha is reactivating this investigation and focusing on the boyfriend and ROBERT CRANE, who has stated he "knows" who killed Mary Ellen. Really? Then speak up and come forward Robert Crane...or are you just another crackpot?

McSpy
04-06-2012, 04:11 PM
I just finished reading through the thread, and have a few random thoughts...

I'm passingly familiar with the murders of Sharon Malone and Cheryl Packard, mentioned in one of the posted articles in reference to Mary Ellen's murder. I had read about their case while researching the February 1966 murder of Debbie Fijan. As I recall, 27 year old (at the time) Robert Kramer--who had already been convicted of previous assaults in the area--was tried and convicted of their murder and thought to be involved in other stabbing murders in the area in the same time frame.

Robert Kramer is kinda (and uncomfortably) similar to Robert Crane, mentioned in previous posts as allegedly claiming to have inside knowledge of Mary Ellen's murder.

And while on the subject of Debbie Fijan, its hard not to mention Richard Otto Macek, whom we discussed in depth on Debbie's thread. Macek, though a resident of the Chicago, IL area, is known to have committed at least four murders in WI (one, at a hotel in Lake Geneva---some 30 or 40 miles from Kenosha). Macek was incarcerated in late '67, released in '71, and committed his first confirmed murder in '72. Some of us who have been researching the Debbie Fijan murder feel that he most likely starting killing after the death of his father in early '66.
Debbie was murdered almost one year to the day before Mary Ellen disappeared.
It's been mentioned in this thread that Mary Ellen had cuts on her face---Macek's signatures, if you will, were biting his victims and cutting the faces (specifically, around the eyes).

On another note, I personally feel that her being found in a hearse was incidental to her murder. The vehicle, a 1948 Packard, would have presented itself as a convenient location to hide Mary Ellen's body (or to commit the actual murder). These vehicles, converted to hearses by the Henney Auto Co, had cavernous interiors. Known as 3-way Side Service hearses, they had large doors on both sides (behind the driver and passenger doors) allowing the caskets to be placed inside from the sides as well as the back. This particular Packard had been painted white with blue lettering advertising a local tavern, and didn't present the typical ominous presence that we associate with a hearse.

Was there any evidence of sexual assault in Debbie's case? Was it ever discovered how Robert Kramer got close to his victims? In other words, did he llure them into a car with a smaile and a lie or abducted them in a violent way?

rosesfromangels
04-13-2012, 10:33 AM
Mary Ellen is still on my prayer grid, and I am bumping this up for her today. Not Forgotten.

McSpy
04-27-2012, 09:48 PM
I wonder what sort of evidence was collected and kept on file? Could there possibily be any DNA on any of it? Today they can extract skin cells from someone just touching an object.

rosesfromangels
05-01-2012, 10:47 PM
Bumping this up, with continued prayers for answers.

rosesfromangels
05-19-2012, 05:33 PM
Not forgotten...

GoBrewers
05-23-2012, 03:32 AM
I find it really interesting that the man who claims to know the killer states he has been on the internet since 1995 posting info about it, yet hasn't contacted family (most likely easier to get a hold of, my grandparents have better contact with their high school classmates - those still around - than i do, and im only 26.

I know this is a shot in the dark, but i for some reason though about the possibility of a woman losing a child either around her age, or possibly miscarrying close to the time. The lack of defensive wounds on the arms would most likely mean another person is involved, or she was unconscious at the time... JMO obviously, but i see the concrete as something chosen as opportunity, but the tavern hurst, that confuses me.

Obviously just a shot in the dark, hope you find the answers your family deserves.

rosesfromangels
09-02-2012, 02:57 PM
Prayers for Mary Ellen continue....

lucasd
09-04-2012, 10:02 PM
Robert Crane has posted on Ancestry.com with his theory and states the police refuse to listen to him and he claims there is a cover up. He says he has proof but it is not fair to the family if this is true and he has not contacted them.

helpthevictims
09-06-2012, 11:04 AM
Yes he did, and I feel it is very wrong of him to use Ancestry.com as his venue to discuss Mary Ellen's murder. I can appreciate his desire to assist getting to the bottom of this, but he should have reached out to our family FIRST prior to posting his theory. He believes she was murdered by a man whom she was secretly having a relationship with and that she had told him she was preganant, (although autopsy confirms she wasn't). This was certainly always a possibility as I profiled. The 4th suspect on my list was a police officer and this guys was!!!!!! It definetly makes sense. Was he married???? Like I've always said, I just believe it has always had something to do with a woman. Maybe he was protecting his marriage?! He couldn't get caught cheating with a seventeen year old girl, he would possibly go to jail and he couldn't let that happen. I wondered if it could have been a police officer because of the $64 thousand dollar question. "Why put her in the hearse?" IT WAS IN THE POLICE IMPOUND LOT. Was that lot locked? If so how could he have driven in there, dragged her through the snow (where she lost her shoes) and put her in the hearse and stab her to death. I do not believe he did it alone. I have always believed two people, as she DID NOT have any defensive wounds. SOMEBODY WAS HOLDING HER DOWN. THERE HAD TO BE TWO PEOPLE.

helpthevictims
09-06-2012, 11:26 AM
WOW, You have done your serial killer homework. After months of researching all these similiar cases Gary Leiterman is exactly whom I had come up with. I thought If she was murdered by a serial killer it would be him. But when I talked to the Detective in Kenosha he said he had a main suspect in mind (which I do not agree with). I do think however there is definetly a link of many of the women murdered in Wisconsin and possibly michigan are connected. I always wondered since he was a traveling salesman that if he could be placed in those areas at those times they could link him. I wish cold case detectives would re-work these cases as I just feel some on them could be solved. Wouldn't it be wonderful If we could have access to the evidence they have. I bet all of us WBers could get to the bottom of alot of this. So many of you out there have an incredible insight and are so right on in your theories. Thank you to all of you who continue to keep Mary Ellen's case alive. It is so comforting to know you all care so much. Your all wonderful.:takeabow:

rosesfromangels
09-16-2012, 01:24 AM
Yes he did, and I feel it is very wrong of him to use Ancestry.com as his venue to discuss Mary Ellen's murder. I can appreciate his desire to assist getting to the bottom of this, but he should have reached out to our family FIRST prior to posting his theory. He believes she was murdered by a man whom she was secretly having a relationship with and that she had told him she was preganant, (although autopsy confirms she wasn't). This was certainly always a possibility as I profiled. The 4th suspect on my list was a police officer and this guys was!!!!!! It definetly makes sense. Was he married???? Like I've always said, I just believe it has always had something to do with a woman. Maybe he was protecting his marriage?! He couldn't get caught cheating with a seventeen year old girl, he would possibly go to jail and he couldn't let that happen. I wondered if it could have been a police officer because of the $64 thousand dollar question. "Why put her in the hearse?" IT WAS IN THE POLICE IMPOUND LOT. Was that lot locked? If so how could he have driven in there, dragged her through the snow (where she lost her shoes) and put her in the hearse and stab her to death. I do not believe he did it alone. I have always believed two people, as she DID NOT have any defensive wounds. SOMEBODY WAS HOLDING HER DOWN. THERE HAD TO BE TWO PEOPLE.

Perhaps she didn't have defense wounds because she had been rendered unconscious? (Let's hope so). I seem to recall there was evidence that she had been dragged to the hearse. If she were unconscious those drag marks would look different than if she had struggled....

rosesfromangels
08-08-2013, 12:55 AM
Bumping. This case needs to be solved!

simplythebest
12-07-2013, 11:45 AM
Hi. I want to start by saying I'm a clairvoyant and Tarot reader. I started having dreams about a young girl. These dreams turned out I believe to be Mary Ellen. I want to just say I hadn't had any history on this case, and no connections. I've gotten many things in my readings for her. The info I got, I've learned after reading this forum may be of some use. Here are my findings: I gathered there may have been two people, man and a woman. This woman chose to ignore what was happenin g. Chose to be a there, but refused ytoaccept the events unfolding. Basically covered her eyes. It shows she may have been killed outside, not the hearse. BC I'm seeing the sky and stars. The man involved may have had hair on the lighter end. He was very fond of Mary Ellen. The cards also show that their may be kin alive that could have details. Most likely a child of the woman. The child has light brown hair. I feel like the man involved lived to be an old man. But he is no longer here, so he can't be found for justice. It also shows that Mary Ellen did know him, BC I see him having her look him in the eyes almost like "I want you to see who I am". I got the Earth card when asked about clues left behind. So its possible any clues were left by where the actual attack happened. Left behind by the female, due to her hiding from the events. Caused her to be careless. The clues left behind are long gone. Mother nature took its course. I think it would've been near a hole. Reminds me of a rabbit hole. Also, Mary Ellen says thank you for the pink flowers. Someone left pink flowers for her.

STANDREID
12-07-2013, 12:56 PM
The only other cinder block or concrete block reference I can find is Portia Bufford aged 8, June '63 http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19680624&id=igAkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=en4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=7312,2175763

More about Portia here, mentions her body being found under a parked rubbish truck
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19660216&id=iN0jAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wCcEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7419,2926536

A man named James Eddie Lee Wallace confessed to Portia's murder in 1970 and was eventually convicted. He moved to Chicago after Portia's murder but was supposedly living in Denver during 1967. Wallace was described as a black man.

scorpionsting
04-23-2014, 08:07 PM
I'm reposting this revised posting. I originally posted that this Robert D. Kramer was another one with the same name and birth year who had moved out of state. It's possible, but until I verify it, I can't state it as fact.

According to the May 9, 1967 issue of the Oshkosh Daily Northwestern, Police Chief J. Leo Buchmann said he would like to talk with Robert D. Kramer about the knife slaying of Mary Ellen Kaldenberg in Feb, 1967 in Kenosha, (Kenosha County) WI. Whether the police chief got that opportunity or not never made it to the newspapers that I could find.

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h337/tangledweb55/robertkramer.jpg

According to Wisconsin Circuit Court Access, this same person, Robert D. Kramer, (DOB 06-26-1939) was sentenced for a 1st Degree Sexual Assault in Wood County, WI, Case Number 1982CF000116 on 01-01-1982 for a sexual assault back in 06-28-1962. News articles from his younger days show he was also busted twice for burglary with others in burglary rings in Wood County, WI.

http://wcca.wicourts.gov/simpleCaseSearch.xsl;jsessionid=69D011AF80349E419E 9D66BE42B98021.render6

According to the Wisconsin Sex Offender Registry, Robert D. Kramer never registered as a sex offender, since,


by law, the registry generally contains information on those individuals who were convicted of, incarcerated, or on supervision for a sex offense on or after December 25, 1993. It is not a list of every person who has ever committed, been arrested for, or convicted of a sex offense.

http://offender.doc.state.wi.us/public/search/searchbyname.jsp

DNA technology was first introduced in criminal court cases around 1988. Since he hasn't registered as a sex offender and they weren't taking DNA in 1982 for his 1962 sexual assault (that I'm aware of), he probably hasn't submitted a sample of DNA, and, so, his DNA isn't in any database.

Since his DNA isn't in any database, then he's still a suspect in the Kaldenberg murder case.

The last newspaper article I could find on Kramer was the Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune, January 14, 1973, in which he was denied parole from Fox Lake Correctional Facility. The article stated he would again be up for parole review in 1974. He had been sentenced to 27 years for kidnapping and stabbing a Sussex, (Waukesha County) WI woman, but was up for parole in 1973. (for some reason that crime was never entered into the WCCA database. Also, some news articles incorrectly state he was sentenced to 72 years. They reversed the numbers)

Again, as stated above, we see he was convicted in 1981 or 1982 for a sexual assault that occurred about 20 years earlier on 06-28-1962 in Wood County, WI, about five years before the Kaldenburg murder. The Wisconsin Rapids Tribune reports he was married on June 17, 1961, so the sexual assault occurred about a year after the marriage.

The question is, where is he today and was there ever any attempt to get DNA from him in the Mary Ellen Kaldenberg murder, either through familial DNA or something as simple as legally collecting his garbage or waiting for him to spit on the sidewalk for DNA evidence? A good place to start would be Racine, WI because an online search shows the above-mentioned family member living there alone.

STANDREID
05-04-2014, 06:16 PM
The account I have says that the hearse had been there several months.

I don't know if it could be seen by anyone walking past the lot but perhaps that was the case.

Apparently, a 1948 Packard hearse was considered next to junk in 1967. Today, I think it would be worth over $100,000.

Probably the most famous Packard hearse was the one owned by Sam the Sham.

scorpionsting
05-05-2014, 02:49 AM
JMO obviously, but i see the concrete as something chosen as opportunity, but the tavern hurst, that confuses me.


She was stabbed 12 times; 6 times in the neck, 3 times in the abdomen and 3 times in the right arm. (Another report said she was also stabbed in the forehead and back)

The Sheboygan Press from February 14, 1967 stated
she was found in the rear of a hearse that had been abandoned at a municipal parking lot near a railroad siding about 20 blocks from the girl's home. Authorities said there were marks on her throat, and that a piece of concrete was lying on her abdomen. Concrete blocks were stacked around the body.

The parking area, in a residential area, was used by Kenosha police to store cars waiting for salvage or auction. The hearse had been in the lot several months, police said, and had no wheels. It had been used at various times as transportation for a baseball team and for storage of tires.

Maybe the sign on the side of the hearse, Frankie's Place, is a clue? Too bad it's too hard to read the words below the name in the picture to see which town Frankie's Place was located. There might be an ad in a newspaper from that time period.

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h337/tangledweb55/hearse.jpg

The Madison Wisconsin State Journal February 21, 1967 stated
she did not die on the night she disappeared, a preliminary State Crime Laboratory report indicates. Police said Monday the laboratory's investigation shows death came later than the night of Feb. 9 when she left home to go to a nearby drugstore. Officers said no specific date of death had been determined but that a substantial period of time passed before she was slain.

RichKelly
05-05-2014, 04:24 PM
This case bothers me ..

There's ALOT of personation at the scene, which indicates, a maturation of fantasy, most likely over an extended period of time

For those who are unfamiliar with the term, "personation" is behavior at a crime scene done by the offender which isn't necessary for the commission, of the crime. It basically fills a psychological need known only to the offender. It exposes, the reason for the offenders behavior>

Repeated personation over different crime scenes is known as "Signature"

This murder has a lot of personation, the taking of the victim in broad daylight, taking the victim, to an abandoned, car alive, where she is stabbed to death , then cement blocks placed around and on her body fills some psychological need for an offender.

The problem is this one is one that has been festering n his mind for some time.

You are looking at an offender, completely comfortable spending time with her dead body in order to place cement all around her and on her abdomen . Not at all concerned of being seen or caught.

The lack of sexual assault is equally alarming , ill get into why later

The stabbing, itself is interesting stabbing the abdomen of a female is sometimes, representative, of hatred. Its targeting the place where life begins

the stabbing to her arm, Im not so sure about unless it was a type of corrective force to get her into the hearse, IF it was done post mortem, then it could be classified, as what we call "exploratory"

Having a specific psychological need, the lack of remorse, bringing and taking the weapon , the risk involved in the abduction, the ritualistic placing of items around the offender, possible simulated sex through violence .. all representative of a Criminal Psychopath

this isn't someone who had a bad day, or was pissed off at wifey and grabbed a girl off the streets , this scenario was played over in his head for years .

Id say this offender is an EXTREMELY high risk to have re-offended,

The lack of sexual assault is sometimes indicative, of sexual dysfunction, as long as this is part of the problem, the potential for the problem to be a factor in fueling further, homicides, will exist.

Add into that this is a representation of fantasy, that most likely took a long time to reach this point

It can also indicate, an offender, who simply wanted to kill someone, with no sexual necessity out of a rage toward, the victim, though it seems more likely it was toward women in general .

The authorities, should look into ANY similar crimes, in the area at that time, including attempted abductions, this is most likely a stranger, though an acquaintance, cant be ruled out .

This is the type that sometimes, re-visits, crime scenes, and though it wasn't printed I wouldn't doubt he kept something from her , but the police haven't released it

Id feel fairly comfortable saying that this offender, either was, or was on the path to becoming a Serial Killer, I wouldn't doubt he killed again somewhere, and crimes, just weren't linked for whatever reason.

Id think the police had interviewed him already, but he was possibly cleared for some reason.

I feel he would've fled as well

scorpionsting
05-05-2014, 08:05 PM
Repeated personation over different crime scenes is known as "Signature"

It doesn't appear there were any other cases similar to these in Wisconsin to validate any kind of signature, though another victim in a stabbing case in the news at that time was also stabbed in the neck (3 times). I think Robert D. Kramer was tried for that case and was found not guilty to lack of evidence.


This murder has a lot of personation, the taking of the victim in broad daylight, taking the victim, to an abandoned, car alive, where she is stabbed to death , then cement blocks placed around and on her body fills some psychological need for an offender.

If she was kept alive for about a week before she was slain (as the crime lab reported), it's probable she was assaulted in that time and either dressed or made to get dressed, then killed and then taken to the hearse. Since LE never released that info, we'll never know either way. I don't know if any of the news articles stated she was killed at the scene.


The problem is this one is one that has been festering n his mind for some time.

You are looking at an offender, completely comfortable spending time with her dead body in order to place cement all around her and on her abdomen . Not at all concerned of being seen or caught.

Stabbed twelve times. How many blocks were placed around her would be good to know. One was also place on her hand according to a news article.


The lack of sexual assault is equally alarming , ill get into why later

That's an unknown.



The authorities, should look into ANY similar crimes, in the area at that time, including attempted abductions, this is most likely a stranger, though an acquaintance, cant be ruled out .

That they did.


This is the type that sometimes, re-visits, crime scenes, and though it wasn't printed I wouldn't doubt he kept something from her , but the police haven't released it

Id feel fairly comfortable saying that this offender, either was, or was on the path to becoming a Serial Killer, I wouldn't doubt he killed again somewhere, and crimes, just weren't linked for whatever reason.

Id think the police had interviewed him already, but he was possibly cleared for some reason.

I feel he would've fled as well

Considering they probably never got one suspect's DNA or even put him on the sex offender list might be a reason they never caught him.

Wisconsin law recently changed where they can compel someone who committed a past sex crime to give DNA way after the fact. Why they never went after Kramer is beyond me. I think this case itself was buried a long time ago since LE doesn't even mention it on their website.


.

RichKelly
05-05-2014, 08:58 PM
"It doesn't appear there were any other cases similar to these in Wisconsin to validate any kind of signature, though another victim in a stabbing case in the news at that time was also stabbed in the neck (3 times). I think Robert D. Kramer was tried for that case and was found not guilty to lack of evidence."

Correct I didn't say there was another crime bearing it, I'm explaining what "signature" is in the case of a single crime scene its considered "personation", if its repeated, its what the profiling community refers to as Signature" . I've seen the term "Signature aspect" used in a few posts, on other crimes, I wanted to explain the designation between the 2


If she was kept alive for about a week before she was slain (as the crime lab reported), it's probable she was assaulted in that time and either dressed or made to get dressed, then killed and then taken to the hearse. Since LE never released that info, we'll never know either way. I don't know if any of the news articles stated she was killed at the scene.

I believe I read on one of the articles, that she was killed in the hearse ,the article I read also stated she wasn't sexually assaulted. as for the report , I didn't see the report where she was kept for a week, even if she wasn't killed there the personation at the dump site, still bears the same behavioral queues as if she wasn't .

Even if she was kept somewhere and killed, the evidence, still points to something rooted deep in fantasy .

The number of concrete pieces, isn't as important as to the WHY, why did this offender feel the need to do that ?.. was it to obstruct the vehicles, windows? if that's the case, then we may have a different type of monster, but , from what the articles, say it sounds, like they were carefully placed that's a form of personation.

In one case of a sadistic killer, in the 80's he stuffed all of the victims, orifices, her mouth her, anus her vagina, with rocks, post mortem when arrested, he said he needed to do that to feel satisfied.

This is the same type of mentality (though its not the same type of personality)


Considering they probably never got one suspect's DNA or even put him on the sex offender list might be a reason they never caught him.

Wisconsin law recently changed where they can compel someone who committed a past sex crime to give DNA way after the fact. Why they never went after Kramer is beyond me. I think this case itself was buried a long time ago since LE doesn't even mention it on their website.

There could be a lot of reasons they never caught him, you are dead on with your post, in the 60's we didn't know what we know now, Robert ressler (FBI) once said that "before the 50's you almost NEVER heard of serial crimes, at least not anywhere close to what is reported now", and that was in the early 80's! now so much is known about it , regular civilians write books about profiling.

Back then an investigators "hunch" could lead an investigation astray because they felt a suspect just wasn't their man.

This type of individual doesn't just happen upon the scene, he lived or worked, near where she was abducted. He's got a past criminal history which includes, assaults, possibly rape, id imagine thefts, maybe even kidnapping .

Now its also important to remember sexual dysfunction DOES NOT CANCEL OUT RAPE, but it is a factor in sexual homicides, quite often

The difference is this guy has a plan... and he felt he had to follow it , there was NO need for cement to be placed, around her body WHEN IT WAS HIDDEN!, that tells you something about his psyche. In his deviant mind it had to be done. He could've just left her in the hearse... hell he could've just left her on the ground.. But he didn't .

That type of fantasy driven personation, doesn't just go away, unless he died

scorpionsting
05-05-2014, 11:31 PM
I believe I read on one of the articles, that she was killed in the hearse, the article I read also stated she wasn't sexually assaulted. as for the report, I didn't see the report where she was kept for a week, even if she wasn't killed there the personation at the dump site, still bears the same behavioral queues as if she wasn't.

That's why this case needs to reviewed, brought up to date and a release of a criminal profile is in order along with a current news release because there are different stories about what actually happened. If they have a suspect or suspects, the public has a right to know even if it's 40+ years later. Of course, serial killers usually peter out in their 50's, so that's no worry there.

As it stands, the only record of this crime is in the newspapers going on a half century ago...and Websleuths, of course.



Even if she was kept somewhere and killed, the evidence, still points to something rooted deep in fantasy .

The number of concrete pieces, isn't as important as to the WHY, why did this offender feel the need to do that ?.. was it to obstruct the vehicles, windows? if that's the case, then we may have a different type of monster, but , from what the articles, say it sounds, like they were carefully placed that's a form of personation.

I like the following analysis, also. Of course, we don't know exactly how the victim was positioned. I pretty much read through this book a few years back and I'm sure it could be revised and updated to the current knowledge about serial killers.

http://www.angelfire.com/sc3/cjrp/staging.html


Investigators often will find forensic discrepancies when a subject stages a rape murder. The offender frequently positions the victim to infer sexual assault has occurred. An offender who has a close relationship with the victim will often only partially remove the victim's clothing. He rarely leaves the victim nude. Autopsy demonstrates a lack of sexual assault. ~Crime Classification Manual: A Standard System for Investigating and Classifying Violent Crimes (1992) John E. Douglas, Ann W. Burgess, Allen G. Burgess and Robert K. Ressler

There was a strange quote/statement in one of the papers by someone with a close relationship to Kaldenberg. Perhaps you read it.

.

scorpionsting
05-06-2014, 12:43 AM
The hearse was in a police lot where they stored old vehicles. So was known by many people. The public was aware as the lot was about to auction off the old hearse. Also it was a place where kids would go to roam around & play as it was 3 children that discovered Mary Ellens body. So seems that the killer had to either be a local or maybe knew someone that was from the area that told the killer about it or maybe had gone there in the past. I find it strange that the killer just put her in that hearse because he stumbled upon it. Highly unlikely but who knows. To me the hearse if very significant. I think he was making some sort of statement by putting her in there. Maybe for shock value. I find the thinking rather of a young mind, immature mind or someone of a "slow" mind. Perhaps the actions show some sort of logic as that's where a body ends up right, in a hearse. Like a young person might think. Who knows.

Well, whoever it was had access to a vehicle and was old enough to drive. 20 blocks is a long way to walk with a hostage without getting caught. Also, since she was missing for three days before she was found, and, according to the crime lab, wasn't slain until right before she was found on the 13th, that means the suspect had to have her alive somewhere warm. Her body, when found, was frozen. No stats on how long it takes a human body to become frozen.

She went missing on a Thursday, 10 Feb and was found Monday, 13 Feb. (WDI puts her death at 9 February 1967, which is odd)

If the children had to duck under a chain link fence to gain access, so would the killer have had to, along with Kaldenberg, unless, of course, he had a key to the gate (if it had one) and a vehicle to drive into the lot.

.

RichKelly
05-06-2014, 01:27 PM
=sleutherforlife;10513498]That's why this case needs to reviewed, brought up to date and a release of a criminal profile is in order along with a current news release because there are different stories about what actually happened. If they have a suspect or suspects, the public has a right to know even if it's 40+ years later. Of course, serial killers usually peter out in their 50's, so that's no worry there.

As it stands, the only record of this crime is in the newspapers going on a half century ago...and Websleuths, of course.

Without actual crime scene photos, a list of the autopsy protocols, an autopsy report, and a initial police, report, creating a profile is difficult.

One thing could change it completely. If it said for instance, she was wrapped in a blanket and hidden under cement pieces in the hearse, were looking in another direction.

The one thing I can say about staging is that the body isn't usually hidden when the scene was staged. She was hidden, and cement "blocks" according to the one article were placed around her, and her shoes were placed next to her .



There was a strange quote/statement in one of the papers by someone with a close relationship to Kaldenberg. Perhaps you read it. .

No I didn't see the quote.

rosesfromangels
09-05-2014, 01:37 AM
I agree that someone with this compulsion must have repeat offended. And most likely had trophies...and someone else must know about this. A wife perhaps.

rosesfromangels
09-07-2014, 12:38 PM
I agree that someone with this compulsion must have repeat offended. And most likely had trophies...and someone else must know about this. A wife perhaps.

Quoting myself. : )
The remarks from the LE expert and simplythebest have me thinking more deeply about this case. I have a "hunch" based on a little deductive reasoning and instinct, and one more hunch based on burial practices.

First, I do think the Perp was someone known to her, and that he/they (yes, I believe he had an accomplice or "helper" - perhaps unwilling but compliant helper), had some ongoing, escalating creepy fascination with her. I am going to agree and reinforce my earlier post; this type of bizarre compulsion had to have happened prior with some other target, or repeated itself after this victim's death. I keep thinking of a teacher, a coach, a pastor, a close family friend, or someone she babysat for. Someone close, who had regular access to the teen, and was in a position of trust. Someone who was particularly complimentary and served as a mentor of some sort. Extra time after school tutoring, or providing spiritual or professional guidance. Someone highly respected in the community, with a well hidden mentally ill side. Maybe even the family doctor. Teacher, doctor, pastor, principal, counselor. Someone with reason to have regular contact without raising suspicion.

I'm also thinking this might have been a "virgin sacrifice". Perhaps this obsessed Perp didn't like the fact she was dating, and didn't want her "spoiled". She went to her death with a "virgin womb" as symbolized by the concrete on her abdomen.

If I had to make only one guess, I would look at anyone who had a study and fascination of ancient history. A history buff. Fascination with death and burial practices. The hearse and the stones are everything in the case, IMO. I would also dwell on who had a fascination with that creepy hearse. Someone who mentioned it often, had some access to it, or used it for something prior. I spent a few minutes googling and reading up on various burial practices that involve stones. I didn't find the exact sect of people with this particular stone configuration (especially the stone on the abdomen), but it's clearly a burial ritual. There are many instances of this type of symbolism in one form or another from the Celts to the Jewish people to indigenous practices. I will keep researching.

What a haunting case.
I do have one extremely powerful impression; the family members of this Perp are keeping this a well kept family secret. This type of compulsion can't be kept secret. It is known. They have this young teen's blood on their hands for not speaking up.

scorpionsting
09-07-2014, 07:20 PM
Madison Capital Times, April 25, 1967:

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h337/tangledweb55/kaldenbergsimilarities.png

It appears there were other slayings going on at the time. I chopped off the last part of the article which reads, "(Kaldenberg) suffered the same fate last February." Welch said, "the latest victims were killed with a bayonet or dagger-type blade, sharp on both sides and about six inches long."

Ceremonial dagger, maybe? The shoes were off and placed by her body. What customs/rituals require removing the shoes?

Another article stated that death came later than the night of Feb 9 when she left to go to the drugstore. It also stated no specific date had been determined but that a substantial period of time passed before she was slain.

I wonder what a substantial period of time was?

Coroner Edward Wavro said the girl was stabbed six times in the neck, three times in the abdomen and on her right arm.

The girl's widowed mother, Mrs. Daniela Kaldenberg said Mary Ellen had left home "in an extremely happy frame of mind" Thursday night for a trip to a neighborhood drug store. (15 minute trip) "She was in a hurry to return because she had a date that night," Mrs. Kaldenberg said. She was found fully clothed by 3 elementary school children. There were marks on her throat. The lot was about a mile (20 blocks) from her home.

The mother said she and the girl had been watching television last Thursday when Mary Ellen decided to walk to the store to get a soda. She never arrived. She lived with her mother and a younger 14 year old brother.

The hearse had been in the lot several months and had no wheels. It had been used at various times as transportation for a baseball team and for storage of tires. Early reports said there were indications she had been shot. She was a student at Tremper High School. Her mother reported her missing early Friday.

She had been stabbed 12 times in the neck, chest, forehead and back with a "blade-type" weapon. Two stab wounds had pierced her heart. Death was due to internal bleeding by stabbing. The coroner said the girl had not been raped, but would make further tests. She was fully clothed except for her shoes which were found nearby. Chunks of concrete were resting on her abdomen and right hand.
police questioned her friends and classmates and a 18 year old boyfriend was a printing apprentice. Mary Ellen lived with her brother, Edward, 14 and her mother who was widowed in 1956.

Mrs. Kaldenberg said, "Mary Ellen was not popular. She had a big nose. She talked of getting plastic surgery when she got a job when she got out of high school. She usually stuck with her boyfriend. They were going out together all the time. Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday night she went along with him to bowling. And that awful Thursday night she spent at home." Mary Ellen was described by a school spokesman where she played in a band as a student who attended regularly and was not a problem.

Her brother said he "cried like a baby when they told me she was dead." A report that the girl would have a closed casket brought new tears, he said. "I cried and cried when they told me that they might not show her," he said. "I can't get a last look, and I liked her."

The residence was located at 2007 64th St, Kenosha, WI 53143. Google maps shows the railroad tracks 10 blocks west of the house.

rosesfromangels
09-07-2014, 09:35 PM
Pardon me for saying so, but what mother says her daughter was not popular and had a big nose?! That's VERY odd. Very. The picture of Mary Ellen depicts a lovely looking young woman. That remark is very bizarre to me. If the girl was nerdy or unpopular, most mother's would say she was shy and reserved, and as a result didn't have many friends. Apparently her nose wasn't so big that it stopped her from having a boyfriend.

That comment is a red flag.

Ausgirl
09-08-2014, 07:47 PM
Pardon me for saying so, but what mother says her daughter was not popular and had a big nose?! That's VERY odd. Very. The picture of Mary Ellen depicts a lovely looking young woman. That remark is very bizarre to me. If the girl was nerdy or unpopular, most mother's would say she was shy and reserved, and as a result didn't have many friends. Apparently her nose wasn't so big that it stopped her from having a boyfriend.

That comment is a red flag.

Perhaps she's just the kind of person who states things she sees as facts rather bluntly? I'd probably be that blunt, in this situation, in the interest of things staying factual. That's just the kind of person I am, doesn't mean I'm a mean person or a bad mother. I just don't prefer to sugarcoat or ignore facts. No red flag for me.

rosesfromangels
09-10-2014, 08:14 PM
Bump! We need more eyes on this case; it's solvable! Come on Websleuthers....please jump in and help! : )

Lulu14
09-19-2014, 06:43 PM
My take on it is far less "romantic" than most people's. She was dragged to the hearst, so she lost her shoes on the way. Therefore, the killer grabs them and puts them next to her to avoid attention. A pair of shoes just laying around might lead to the body being found sooner.

The rocks in the hearse - may not have been connected in any way with the murder. I can see kids playing there and building fortresses, especially since she was found by kids. Again, they might have sheltered the body from being noticed at a glance. Same goes for the slab on her belly - or, the killer might have placed it there to make sure she won't wake up and crawl for help (I am guessing it is hard for a common person to tell if anyone is dead or just passed out). How big was the rock?

And how close were the railroad tracks to the pound?

Lulu14
09-19-2014, 06:43 PM
My take on it is far less "romantic" than most people's. She was dragged to the hearst, so she lost her shoes on the way. Therefore, the killer grabs them and puts them next to her to avoid attention. A pair of shoes just laying around might lead to the body being found sooner.

The rocks in the hearse - may not have been connected in any way with the murder. I can see kids playing there and building fortresses, especially since she was found by kids. Again, they might have sheltered the body from being noticed at a glance. Same goes for the slab on her belly - or, the killer might have placed it there to make sure she won't wake up and crawl for help (I am guessing it is hard for a common person to tell if anyone is dead or just passed out). How big was the rock?

And how close were the railroad tracks to the pound?

Ausgirl
09-19-2014, 08:17 PM
The hearse had been there previously, how long I don't know. But I do know it had been there for a while, I believe it may have either had flat tires or maybe missing tires. don't know but it was already there prior to this maniac leaving HER there. What kind of person does something like this?! Leaving a poor stabbed to death young innocent girl in a hearse before her time. What do you think he was trying to say by choosing the hearse? What kind of fascination with the dead does this say? Sure wish we had the answers. Hell at this stage I will take a clue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Apologies for quoting such an old post.. But I come and read this thread every now and then, looking for updates, and always pause on this post... I have NO doubt the killer KNEW the hearse was there, prior to Mary Ellen's murder. To my mind, it MUST have held some significance to him.. I am sure there were plenty of other "private" places he could have taken her, and add to that the stones/burial aspect.. I do think burial was part of this killer's plan from the get-go.

I think a single man could easily have dragged a girl of that age, but if she was conscious, she would have been kicking and screaming.. it's not like she was a small child. So I tend to think maybe Mary Ellen was incapacitated in some way, to be dragged off her path into a vehicle, from there taken to the impound lot where she was dragged through the fence and into the hearse. It's quite a long way off her intended route, which makes me think he sourced the desired 'kill site' before he took his victim.

I don't really see a woman's hand in this, I have to say. My ideas concur closely with Rich's here, that it was likely a single killer with a fantasy he was playing out. He found the hearse, and then found the victim to occupy it. I'm even betting he likely had the blocks of concrete already stacked nearby..

If this man went on to kill again, his crimes might not necessarily follow this *exact* scenario, ie, there might not be stones placed, etc. But I'd not be surprised if piquerism (stabbing as a sexual act) was an element, as well as a LOT of attention paid to the bodies.

In any case, I am sure this person spent time in the area prior to Mary Ellen's death, and likely would have scoped out the hearse/lot prior to the abduction of his victim. I am also pretty sure he would have used a vehicle to take her to the site. I am doubtful she was conscious for that.

Why was the a hearse in the impound lot, anyway. Bit an odd vehicle to end up there..

Ausgirl
09-19-2014, 08:24 PM
The rocks in the hearse - may not have been connected in any way with the murder. I can see kids playing there and building fortresses, especially since she was found by kids. Again, they might have sheltered the body from being noticed at a glance. Same goes for the slab on her belly - or, the killer might have placed it there to make sure she won't wake up and crawl for help (I am guessing it is hard for a common person to tell if anyone is dead or just passed out). How big was the rock?


The horseshoe-shaped arrangement around her body would have hidden nothing.. and as a slab was placed over her belly post mortem, I have to assume the other bits of concrete were placed there by the killer, in that U-shape, for a reason.

After being stabbed like that, I doubt he's be worried about his victim up and running off.

I can't really see the placement of stones happening for any good reason, outside whatever sense of fulfillment it gave the killer.

Good thought on the shoes.. but again, why not just toss them roughly into the hearse then? Appearance was probably *everything* to this guy. Neat and tidy arrangement of shoes.. Definite and deliberate placement and pattern to the stones. That says to me he probably wanted the scene to fit a a desired 'picture' in his head.

STANDREID
09-19-2014, 08:43 PM
I think the hearse may have been impounded because it was illegally parked. Its present owner, who was not using it as a hearse, probably didn't think it was worth paying the fine and towing charge to get it out. I wonder what happened to it. The vehicle would be quite valuable today especially in restored condition.

scorpionsting
09-20-2014, 02:40 AM
Facts gleaned from the newspapers:

Mary Ellen Kaldenberg, age 17, disappeared sometime after 8:30 pm when she went to the neighborhood drugstore on Thursday, February 9, 1967. Her mother said they were "happy go lucky" Thursday night, watching TV, talking about school and having soft drinks when her daughter decided to go to the drugstore. She was in a hurry to get back because she had a date with her 18 year old boyfriend later that evening.

Some newspaper reports said she went for a soft drink, others said she was running an errand. She never made it to the drugstore. She was reported missing by her mother early Friday. Exact time reported missing not disclosed in newspapers that I could find.

She was found on Monday, February 13, 1967 by two elementary school boys playing in the parking lot. The hearse was blood-spattered on the inside. Some early reports stated she had been shot and stabbed. There were also marks on her throat. Hearse had been abandoned in lot for several months. It had no wheels/tires. It had previously been used to transport a baseball team. Concrete blocks were stacked around her body. (A standard-sized cement block weighs 35 lbs.) A piece of concrete was lying on her abdomen. One news article stated a piece of concrete was also on her right hand. She was clad in slacks, sweater and ski jacket. Her shoes were found near her body. It did not appear she had been sexually molested. Body's frozen condition made it impossible to pinpoint TOD. Papers reported a substantial amount of time had passed between her death and when she was last seen and was not killed on the night she disappeared. Coroner said it appeared she had been dragged to the hearse.

IMO, if the hearse was blood-spattered on the inside, then she was dragged alive to the hearse and killed there.

The Madison Capital Times May 29, 1968 said police were investigating the deaths of Christine Rothschild, University of Wisconsin-Madison, stabbed 14 times in chest, Valerie Jeanne Percy, daughter of Senator Charles Percy, of Kenilworth, IL. Percy was struck on the head and stabbed more than a dozen times in her home. Her nightgown had been pulled up, Diane Olkwitz, Menominee Falls, WI, stabbed a total of 98 times but not sexually molested. and Kaldenberg, of Kenosha, WI., stabbed 12 times. All four killings were in a relatively close-in area- a triangle from Chicago to Madison to the Milwaukee vicinity. Autopsies revealed none were sexually molested before their killing and all were found with their clothes on. All murders are still unsolved.

rosesfromangels
09-20-2014, 07:21 PM
Facts gleaned from the newspapers:

Mary Ellen Kaldenberg, age 17, disappeared sometime after 8:30 pm when she went to the neighborhood drugstore on Thursday, February 9, 1967. Her mother said they were "happy go lucky" Thursday night, watching TV, talking about school and having soft drinks when her daughter decided to go to the drugstore. She was in a hurry to get back because she had a date with her 18 year old boyfriend later that evening.

Some newspaper reports said she went for a soft drink, others said she was running an errand. She never made it to the drugstore. She was reported missing by her mother early Friday. Exact time reported missing not disclosed in newspapers that I could find.

She was found on Monday, February 13, 1967 by two elementary school boys playing in the parking lot. The hearse was blood-spattered on the inside. Some early reports stated she had been shot and stabbed. There were also marks on her throat. Hearse had been abandoned in lot for several months. It had no wheels/tires. It had previously been used to transport a baseball team. Concrete blocks were stacked around her body. (A standard-sized cement block weighs 35 lbs.) A piece of concrete was lying on her abdomen. One news article stated a piece of concrete was also on her right hand. She was clad in slacks, sweater and ski jacket. Her shoes were found near her body. It did not appear she had been sexually molested. Body's frozen condition made it impossible to pinpoint TOD. Papers reported a substantial amount of time had passed between her death and when she was last seen and was not killed on the night she disappeared. Coroner said it appeared she had been dragged to the hearse.

IMO, if the hearse was blood-spattered on the inside, then she was dragged alive to the hearse and killed there.

The Madison Capital Times May 29, 1968 said police were investigating the deaths of Christine Rothschild, University of Wisconsin-Madison, stabbed 14 times in chest, Valerie Jeanne Percy, daughter of Senator Charles Percy, of Kenilworth, IL. Percy was struck on the head and stabbed more than a dozen times in her home. Her nightgown had been pulled up, Diane Olkwitz, Menominee Falls, WI, stabbed a total of 98 times but not sexually molested. and Kaldenberg, of Kenosha, WI., stabbed 12 times. All four killings were in a relatively close-in area- a triangle from Chicago to Madison to the Milwaukee vicinity. Autopsies revealed none were sexually molested before their killing and all were found with their clothes on. All murders are still unsolved.

Thank you for compiling this, it's very helpful Scorpionsting!
My first thought is how horrid for those boys that found her. I'm sure they will never shake off that image as long as they live.
My second thought is that her date seemed very late in the evening for a teenager, and especially in that era. She was just going to run an errand at 8:30 and her date was later? That seems odd, unless the boyfriend was working until then?
I wonder wat she was going t the drugstore for? If she was going on a date maybe a new lipstick or cologne or hair accessory?
Or, I wonder if she used that as an excuse to go meet someone else she didn't want to tell her mother and brother about?
The death of the other girls with no sexual molestation before the killing makes me go back to my hypothesis that this was a "virgin sacrifice". The concrete is related to some pagan ritual, or some ancient burial practice I think. I'm still researching that.

rosesfromangels
09-20-2014, 08:06 PM
O.K., there are several rituals from Inca to Aztec to Celtic & Druid that all have some element or theme tied to what we know about Mary Ellen's murder. I haven't found one yet that has a perfect description of the stone configuration, but a strong general theme of virginal sacrifice seems to be there. I found an ancient game I had never heard of that has some loose, but itching connection. Quite obtuse, but is there any thing to this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_and_death

Continuing to develop my notion of the profile of this Perp, its an ancient history buff. In todays times, this would be the guy online playing some warlord game endlessly.

STANDREID
09-20-2014, 08:51 PM
She was just going to run an errand at 8:30 and her date was later? That seems odd, unless the boyfriend was working until then?
I wonder wat she was going t the drugstore for? If she was going on a date maybe a new lipstick or cologne or hair accessory?

That is interesting especially since it was Thursday and I can't think of any reason why the next day wouldn't have been a school day. I don't know about Wisconsin, but here in IL, if I recall, curfew for individuals under 18-years-old was 9PM on a week night like this. Friday and Saturday, it was midnight. I suppose the date could have been to watch TV or something like that but, even then, I don't think most kids would be allowed to stay up past 10:30 on an evening preceding a school day.

rosesfromangels
09-20-2014, 09:14 PM
Agree stanreid. Doesnt add up.

scorpionsting
09-21-2014, 01:38 AM
That is interesting especially since it was Thursday and I can't think of any reason why the next day wouldn't have been a school day. I don't know about Wisconsin, but here in IL, if I recall, curfew for individuals under 18-years-old was 9PM on a week night like this. Friday and Saturday, it was midnight. I suppose the date could have been to watch TV or something like that but, even then, I don't think most kids would be allowed to stay up past 10:30 on an evening preceding a school day.

That curfew law might be enforceable in a very small town, but Kenosha's population in 1967 was about 50,000. You also had a mother who had no problem with her under-age daughter dating an 18 year old.

Also, she left her home at 8:30 pm for what would have been a 15 minute walk, back in time for curfew. She was a 17 year old dating an 18 year old with parent's consent. What's odd to me is that the daughter and mother were already drinking soda and watching TV.

Why the need to run out for a soda right before a date? A quote by the mother in a newspaper article shown recently on this thread mentioned Mary Ellen frequently going bowling with her boyfriend.

The last newspaper article on Mary Ellen Kaldenberg's murder was in the Madison Capital Times, Wednesday, May 29, 1968. Nothing else ever appeared about her murder in the newspapers after that, anywhere. That's quite a short attention span from the media for a gruesome murder. Why the disinterest after a year? Who swept that story under the rug, especially when there were numerous unsolved stabbing murders in Wisconsin before and after the Kaldenberg murder?

Other points of interest:

Was the baseball team that was hauled around in the hearse (a macabre means of transportation in the first place) a team sponsored by Frankie's Place, the name on the side of the hearse? Where was Frankie's Place located in proximity to Kaldenberg's residence...or the murder site, for that matter? Did any of those player's work at the factory directly across the street from the Kaldenberg residence? What was the name of that factory, btw, anybody know? I'm sure workers getting off from that factory interacted with the people from the neighborhood on their way home from work. A cold night (10-15 degrees above zero that night), a "Hey, you need a ride?" and next thing you know, a gullible teenager goes missing.

Or was it a juvenile team hauled around in the hearse?

http://s1104.photobucket.com/user/tangledweb55/media/hearse.jpg.html

The media site was located at a police impoundment lot. Who better has access to an impoundment lot than the police? She did disappear around the time of curfew, so who's to say...you get my drift. Was that avenue explored? I'm not casting aspersions, but recently an ex-police officer was arrested in Wisconsin after two bodies were found in suitcases, so it can happen. Iola Police Chief Michael Schertz was tried for the murder of another police officer. It happens.

Thirdly, children played in that impoundment lot and it was children who found the body. The killing could be attributed to a teenager/teenagers exploring their dark side for the first time. Serial killers start their fantasy somewhere. Maybe in a hearse on the way to a ballgame?

Lots of scenarios to consider...

rosesfromangels
09-21-2014, 06:55 AM
Great post Scorpionsting, and yes, lots to ponder. I hadn't picked up on the factory directly across the street from where they live; and certainly quite compelling depending on what type of factory.
Still bothered by her mothers remarks about her "big nose" and plain appearance. It's a big flag to me. It just seems like the last thing you'd be saying about your daughter if she had just been brutally murdered. I know people say odd things under stress, but this really stands out for me. To me, it strongly hints at some level of animosity towards the daughter, or jealousy.
I would be interested in knowing more about the mother, and her close male acquaintances. Where was Mary Ellien's father in all this? Was he deceased, or? Sorry if this has all been discussed previously.
Something just isn't right about that statement from the mother, and it's standing out for me.

STANDREID
09-21-2014, 07:00 AM
I don't believe curfew applied here if you were with an individual who was at least 18 but wasn't Mary Ellen still in school?

rosesfromangels
09-21-2014, 08:03 AM
This thread has referenced remarks posted in Mary Ellen's a*c*st*y.com thread. I just got around to reading them. On the positive side, it's good to see she still has relatives and old neighbors who think about her, and someone who tends her grave. It appears she has a grand niece on the thread, and that her brother is still living and still seeking answers.

And, as mentioned on this thread before, there is someone "R.C." claiming to know what exactly happened to Mary Ellen. While these remarks can not be legitimized by virtue o the sheer cruelty of posting them in someone's family thread, this "R.C." does make one point that I do believe has some potential merit. RC speculates Mary Ellen had another male she was seeing quietly. The fact that she slipped out at 8:30 at night, before a date, to go get a soda (?) speaks to a teenager up to something else. The rest of RC's theories may have some basis of truth, but can not be considered by me since since the manner of disclosure was so unbelievably thoughtless to the family.
If RC has anything of substance to share, he should send his research to the family. The family designated someone he could contact. Until proven otherwise, RC is a cruel troll. I hope he proves me wrong and legitimately helps the family.

STANDREID
09-21-2014, 08:43 AM
Her mother's comments do sound uncaring.

She was a junior at Tremper High School and her father was deceased.

scorpionsting
09-21-2014, 12:16 PM
Great post Scorpionsting, and yes, lots to ponder. I hadn't picked up on the factory directly across the street from where they live; and certainly quite compelling depending on what type of factory.
Still bothered by her mothers remarks about her "big nose" and plain appearance. It's a big flag to me. It just seems like the last thing you'd be saying about your daughter if she had just been brutally murdered. I know people say odd things under stress, but this really stands out for me. To me, it strongly hints at some level of animosity towards the daughter, or jealousy.
I would be interested in knowing more about the mother, and her close male acquaintances. Where was Mary Ellien's father in all this? Was he deceased, or? Sorry if this has all been discussed previously.
Something just isn't right about that statement from the mother, and it's standing out for me.

Some quotes from post#168...

Daniela Kaldenberg, Mary Ellen's mother, was widowed in 1956. (KALDENBERG, CECIL was born 22 January 1896, received Social Security number xxx (indicating Wisconsin) and, Death Master File says, died June 1956. The 1940 U. S. Census shows him being born in Illinois. It appears they lived in Chicago at one time, as did their family)

Cecil and Daniela Kaldenberg are mentioned in Daniela's parent's golden wedding anniversary in Mitchell County, Iowa, below:

http://iagenweb.org/mitchell/marriages/marrag6a.htm

Mrs. Kaldenberg said, "Mary Ellen was not popular. She had a big nose. She talked of getting plastic surgery when she got a job when she got out of high school. She usually stuck with her boyfriend. They were going out together all the time. Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday night she went along with him to bowling. And that awful Thursday night she spent at home."

The residence was located at 2007 64th St, Kenosha, WI 53143. Google maps shows the railroad tracks 10 blocks west of the house and a factory just east across the street from the house.

---------------------------------

I only wish we knew where the drugstore was located. A Kenosha city directory from 1967 would help.

scorpionsting
09-21-2014, 04:48 PM
Thank you for compiling this, it's very helpful Scorpionsting!
My first thought is how horrid for those boys that found her. I'm sure they will never shake off that image as long as they live.
My second thought is that her date seemed very late in the evening for a teenager, and especially in that era. She was just going to run an errand at 8:30 and her date was later? That seems odd, unless the boyfriend was working until then?
I wonder wat she was going t the drugstore for? If she was going on a date maybe a new lipstick or cologne or hair accessory?
Or, I wonder if she used that as an excuse to go meet someone else she didn't want to tell her mother and brother about?
The death of the other girls with no sexual molestation before the killing makes me go back to my hypothesis that this was a "virgin sacrifice". The concrete is related to some pagan ritual, or some ancient burial practice I think. I'm still researching that.

If one were to wonder what may have influenced the killer, I'd nominate the cult-classic 1965 movie Who Killed Teddy Bear starring Sal Mineo as a psychopathic stalker serial killer and Jan Murray, a cop obsessed with sexual deviants and whose wife was the victim of an unsolved murder. She was raped, killed and mutilated by a stalker. Another actor in the movie was Kenosha-born Daniel Travanti (who lived in Iowa at one time) and whose father was an American Motors factory worker in Kenosha. Read some of the online write-ups for this movie and you might agree. This was Daniel J. Travanti's first movie. If that factory by Mary Ellen's house turns out have been a part of American Motors, I'd freak.

The movie, as it progresses, shows close-ups of book covers and titles through the different scenes. One such book is Sadism and Masochism by Wilhelm Stekel which describes sixty four of some of the most disturbing, violent, and extreme instances of sexual perversion ever recorded. It would be interesting to see if any of those sixty four descriptions are similar to the Kaldenberg murder.

Scene from Who Killed Teddy Bear:

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h337/tangledweb55/sal.jpg

scorpionsting
09-21-2014, 09:41 PM
http://boards.rootsweb.com/thread.aspx?o=20&m=48.3.2&p=surnames.kaldenberg

Maybe posting it on a genealogy board was unorthodox but the many answers he got from family members showed they weren't offended. In fact, several of them gave names of people in Kenosha who have first hand information about the case. Those are some pretty good leads that could be pursued just by emailing them.

I would think he would need evidence or some sort of theory to back up his statements. The majority of the wounds weren't in the stomach, for one, and, if he did go to the police, as he stated, they would have investigated his statements.


Coroner Edward Wavro said the girl was stabbed six times in the neck, three times in the abdomen and on her right arm. Another statement reads: She had been stabbed 12 times in the neck, chest, forehead and back with a "blade-type" weapon. Two stab wounds had pierced her heart. Death was due to internal bleeding by stabbing.

I would like to find out who that elderly gentleman was who he said was linked to the Kaldenberg case

scorpionsting
10-12-2014, 05:27 PM
Mary Ellen's killer thought she was carrying child. He was seening Mary Ellen on the side and she made a mistake and told him she was pregnant. I interviewed the cops that were involved in the case they had their story together, Word for Word. Mary Ellen was seeing a cop when she was killed there was also another murder that was involved with Mary Ellen's death. The cops were covering that up to. I've done a lot of research and I believe the police were covering for another cop who had been sleeping with Mary Ellen. The majority of Mary Ellen's stab wounds were in her stomach but the autopsy said she was not with child. I hope that clears some of the mystery up.

I'd have to have more proof for the above theory put forth by rcrane49 on Rootsweb in 2012.

http://boards.rootsweb.com/thread.aspx?o=20&m=48.3.2&p=surnames.kaldenberg

Also, I don't know of any guy who uses the term "with child". The above theory is also put forth in a fictional story online by a female writer.

http://hulagurl2590.wordpress.com/

I don't doubt they are one and the same.

Another poster there (at Rootsweb) stated the murder site was near 63rd & 25th, which is five blocks east of a railroad siding at 63rd & 30th. Now all we need is the name and address of the drugstore where Mary Ellen was headed to when she disappeared.


Mary Ellen and her brother Eddie were Lincoln Park neighborhood people as were my family. They lived about 3 blocks away from us and they were members of St. Thomas Aquinas Catholic Chruch (now a charter school) on 63rd and 25th, very close to where her remains were found.

I posted a map at the following WS website in Post #27 in which I show another murder suspect (Dennis Brantner), named by the police in the murder of Berit Beck, living in close proximity to Mary Ellen Kaldenberg's home in Kenosha. Whether he lived there in 1967 and whether he has any connections to this murder is unknown to me. Maybe he worked at the Jupiter Discount Store in Kenosha, too?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?240384-WI-IL-Berit-Beck-18-Fond-du-Lac-17-July-1990/page2&highlight=kaldenberg

As far as news on this murder goes, there have been no newspaper articles written about Mary Ellen Kaldenberg's murder since May 9, 1967. That's 47 years ago! Not even an update. In fact, the Kenosha Police Department doesn't even mention this case on their website:

http://www.kenoshapolice.com/

Even the Gannett Wisconsin Media Investigative Team's Unsolved Murders website doesn't list Kaldenberg's murder:

http://php.wisinfo.com/mktg/unsolved_apc/

How's that for being forgotten?

BugsMoran
12-18-2014, 03:04 PM
I grew up very close to Mary Ellen (65th Street and 18th Ave in Kenosha, and she was a member of my family's parish (St. Thomas Aquinas on 63rd and 25th). A few things I'd like to point out. The Drug Store Mary Ellen was heading towards was the Hub Drug on the corner of 63rd and 22nd Ave, about 2 blocks from her home. She could have made the entire trip in 15 minutes. Her remains were found in the hearse inside of the car pound on 63rd and 30th. There was a back exit to the car pound on 63rd and 26th, so it was only about a 5 to 10 minute walk from Hub Drug. I think she headed to the drug store around dusk, which would have been between 5 and 6 during the month of February. People are saying 8.30 but I think that is a mistake. I honestly think the Hub Drug closed well before then. I remember her as being tall and sweet. She always said hello to everybody. I felt sorry for her because she dressed very poorly as the family was hard-pressed. Somebody has since told me that she sometimes had to wear hand-me-down men's clothing. She was teased because of her clothing and her looks. I think the mother mentioned it in the newspaper. to make her torturers at school feel bad. Her body was found frozen and after a heavy snow fall. I think the snow covered up tracks and the cold made it hard to determine times and clues. Don't forget: this was almost 50 years ago, and the forensics were pretty primitive. Now the lab people could determine more: like if she was pregnant, had been drugged and the time of her last meal. I don't believe she was pregnant, but Kenosha in 1967 was very conservative and it could have been left out of the newspapers to save her family more grief. There were theories galore! And for years! The most consistently stated one was that it was a creep that she had dropped and he wasn't going to let it go. The cops pulled him numerous times for questioning, but he wouldn't crack. They even followed him all over the city to make him sweat. I don't know if I heard his name before, but allegedly he left Kenosha years ago to escape the hounding of the police. The phantom truck driver was another one! A crazy sailor from Great Lakes was another.

BugsMoran
12-18-2014, 03:12 PM
The creepiest tale that made the rounds was that Mary Ellen was the victim of a witches coven that was nested above a tavern over on 60th, a very close walk to the car pound. According to this yarn, she was sacrificial lamb offered up during a satanic ceremony. She was stabbed 12 times: one time by each of the twelve member of the coven. I think this theory sprung up when "The Exorcist" became a best seller. It is stuff of urban legends. The murder has haunted me for years as I felt a great evil had been done to a good person. I attended St. Thomas School right across the street from the car pound, and our class enrollment dropped from 50 to 35 after Mary Ellen's death. I have always felt there was an underlining but spoken connection between the two. Finally there was a tiny diner at the intersection of 22nd & Roosevelt that Mary Ellen was known to patronize. It was always felt that place was connected with her death. I'm glad Eddie went on to have a new life and a family.

pleasestandby
12-18-2014, 11:55 PM
Thank you for your valuable insight, BugsMoran. It helps put the locations in perspective and may eventually help jog someone's memory. The Google Maps link below shows the most logical route from Mary Ellen's home at 2007 64th St. to Hub Drugs at 6300 22nd Ave. (a four minute walk one way according to Google) and would have taken her right by the diner at 22nd Ave & Roosevelt St. Since she never did make it to Hub Drugs, could the diner have factored into her disappearance?

And, of course, the impound lot was about eight blocks west of the drugstore at 30th Ave & 63rd St. It also appears that Mary Ellen was held alive a number of days in an unknown location before she was found in the hearse. Was the impound lot fenced in, I wonder? Didn't the kids who found her have to climb under the fence to get in? Wouldn't the killer (or killers) also have to do that?

It appears she was dragged to the hearse (probably unconscious), according to news reports, so there must have been some sort of impression in the snow showing the drag marks. I wonder how far the hearse was from the fence line and if detectives reenacted dragging someone of her weight in the snow to determine if one person could have done it or whether it required two people? Whoever did it sure went to a lot of trouble to drag her there and then kill her and then stack the blocks around her body. Was that all done to hide her body or was he/they sending a message? For some reason, he/they couldn't kill her where she was being held.

https://goo.gl/maps/2vawR

If anyone knows the answers to any of the below questions feel free to answer.

The diner you mentioned wasn't named Frankie's Place (the name on the hearse), by any chance, was it?
Did Frankie's Place sponsor the baseball team that was carried around in the hearse?
Did any member of that team go to Tremper High? (depending on the age group of the team members)
Did any of those team members work at the factory directly across the street from the Kaldenberg residence?
What was the name of that factory? Was this American Motors?
Did any of the windows in the factory face the windows of the Kaldenberg residence and did any of the detectives go to the factory to determine whether someone could see into the Kaldenberg residence from the factory windows?

Ausgirl
12-19-2014, 05:00 AM
Her being held for a number of days pretty much discounts a non-local, IMO.

Somebody had a 'safe' place to stash her for days on end.

Somewhere no-one would look, somewhere she would not be heard/looked for/discovered by others.

VERY good point, re WHY the killer could not, or didn't wish to, kill her where she was being held. Was his family on vacation, for example... If he *lived* or *worked* there, that could be a very good reason.

I really think the covering points to a "If I can't have you, no-one can" scenario. I agree, it's a LOT of effort to go to, a LOT of 'unnecessary' risk to go to, to stage her body that way. So it must have meant *something* very important to her killer. What that may be, who knows... but it's significant to him, that is for sure. Again, pointing to a local IMO.

pleasestandby
12-19-2014, 09:04 AM
Her being held for a number of days pretty much discounts a non-local, IMO.

Somebody had a 'safe' place to stash her for days on end.

Somewhere no-one would look, somewhere she would not be heard/looked for/discovered by others.

VERY good point, re WHY the killer could not, or didn't wish to, kill her where she was being held. Was his family on vacation, for example... If he *lived* or *worked* there, that could be a very good reason.

I really think the covering points to a "If I can't have you, no-one can" scenario. I agree, it's a LOT of effort to go to, a LOT of 'unnecessary' risk to go to, to stage her body that way. So it must have meant *something* very important to her killer. What that may be, who knows... but it's significant to him, that is for sure. Again, pointing to a local IMO.

Great observations. His "place" where he kept her hostage was only temporary. Discovery of the location was probably imminent (and possibly right nearby)

When you click on that Google map link and put it in "street view" mode, you can actually retrace Mary Ellen's steps from her residence to Hub Drugs. The 360 degree panoramic view of the houses and businesses along the route is amazing as you click on the arrow. It's just as if you were "walking" down the street 47 years ago. Virtual reality. Just add some traffic/people background ambient sounds and a person could really freak themselves out. Witnesses could use it to recall forgotten/suppressed clues.

BugsMoran
12-19-2014, 10:46 AM
The diner was called the Frost Top. In the 70's a driver spun out on the ice and crashed into it and basically destroyed it. The Frost Top had a parking lot behind it that many people used to cut through to get to the lights on Roosevelt Road, 63rd Street and 22nd Avenue. There were 4 set of lights that you had to navigate to get to the Hub Drug so it was game to see which lights you caught. If Mary Ellen was abducted by somebody inside of a car (or if she entered a car willingly), this spot would have been an ideal place. The Frost Top catered to neighborhood people but cab drivers and truck drivers hung out there. A 'rougher' element went there after dark. I'm sure it closed before 9. The rumor I heard (stemming from a person who worked there who told my mother) was that Mary Ellen hung-out there, and had the habit of 'taking up' with the 'wrong' sort. This could just be a case of blaming the victim.

The railroad tracks were not used as a passenger line but as a source of 'shipping' for American Motors cars outward bound. The car pound had a link fence that I believe was very easy to crawl under at the front gate or to scale over. However, 30th avenue was very busy with the various shift workers at the American Motors. It was also heavily patrolled by the police. The car pound also bordered the backyards of many houses so it probably could have been accessed easily from many points. I'm not sure but it could just be empty space these days.

I believe the boys who found the body were in the 7th grade at McKinley Middle School, maybe about a half of a mile from the car pound. I went to high school with them but I didn't know them. I was told by others that they didn't want to talk about it. One boy was treated for shock. When they found the body they ran next door to a building that I believe was run by the Water Department. They brought a worker to the hearse and he then phoned the police. I have heard that the body had turned blue.

The factory across the street from the Kaldenberg home was very tiny. I think it was more of a store that sold fixtures for homes. In the back of the store there were all sorts of pipes that I believe were for plumbing. I think it probably employed less than a dozen people...if that. Could have been as few as 2 or 3.

BugsMoran
12-19-2014, 10:56 AM
The business wasn't part of American Motors, and it was there years after the murder. There were no windows facing towards her home. When I walked past there over the years, you rarely saw anybody back there, and they were usually older guys. The police basically went to every business in the area to ask questions. They also checked out the bowling alleys, movie theatres and pizza parlors. Very little was open in Kenosha after 9 at night. Curfew was maybe 10.30 but it was usually only enforced during the warmer months and if kids were walking on the streets or causing trouble. Two teenagers around 17 inside of a car would probably not have been bothered. Really, it was lights out well before midnight in those days. I doubt if any movies even started any later than 7 or 8. My sisters both went to Tremper with Mary Ellen, and they thought she was nice and quiet. The feeling is she was lonely and insecure and maybe did things that weren't in her own best interests. One of my sister still contends that there was a cover up because the murderer's parents had money and influence. I rather doubt that.

BugsMoran
12-19-2014, 11:19 AM
The Frost Top was kitty corner (and to the south) to the Hub Drug. The Hub Drug was on the west side of 22nd and the Frosty Side was on the east side. You could easily hit the Hub Drug with a snowball pitched from the Frost Top. There was also a drug store across the street from the Hub Drug on 63rd Street and a but north if 22nd called Bernnachi's, and it had an old fashion soda fountain inside it. The Dutch Maid was maybe a few buildings from Bernnachi's, and it was a popular hamburger place. None of these businesses saw Mary Ellen that night. Nobody is cars on 22nd reported seeing Mary Ellen walking down the street. Was it stated by the police report that she died a few days after she went missing? I always had the impression she was killed sooner and that her body was left in the hearse for several nights. It was just by chance those boy's found the body.

BugsMoran
12-19-2014, 02:16 PM
The factory that was directly east of the Kaldenberg residence was the American Brass. It ran north to south from 63rd to 65th street and east to west from 14th avenue to 20th avenue. The Kaldenbergs lived in the side street between 20th and 21st street, so it wasn't facing the Brass but the tiny piping place. The part of the Brass on 20th avenue was a huge parking lot for the workers. There were 3 shifts there, and the blowing of the whistles signaled the end and start of every shift. If you walked along the sidewalk next to the Brass the workers could talk to you through the window. Sometimes they said rude things to the girls. I'm not sure if the cops investigated the factory. It would seem likely. It has been gone these past 10-15 years.

The car pound was a very makeshift and slap dash affair. It seemed to be more of a service road in the land sandwiched between the railroad tracks and the homes along 63rd street. It was not very wide, but it was rather long. There were no city roads that actually cut through there. To get to 6oth to 63rd you still have to drive to 30th. I also don't believe there's any city streets from 26th and 30th. You have to use 60th or 63rd to get from 26t and 30th. It's a real industrial waste land. If you are from Kenosha you know that 22nd avenue is one of the only roads in town that goes through the entire city north to south and 60th is one of the few that goes completely through from east to west. Streets disappear and then reappear miles away. There are dead ends galore.

The car pound was for abandoned cars. The only worth these cars had were for their tires and parts. I think the gates were actually open during the day. I don't recall it being heavily monitored. It was more like a junk yard. I have heard that the hearse was seeable from 30th avenue and was maybe within 50 yards of the gate.

I think there's a Jackson-Hewitt Tax Service where the Hub Drug used to be. The address is 6207 22nd avenue. I saw a picture of the 3 businesses there and it looked like Roosevelt Road was slanting in from the southwest. The grid system in Kenosha was usually very accurate but there are unexplainable numbering sequences. I grew up on 65th street and our neighbors next door lived on 66th Street but their was no street running through there.

pleasestandby
12-19-2014, 03:10 PM
Was it stated by the police report that she died a few days after she went missing? I always had the impression she was killed sooner and that her body was left in the hearse for several nights. It was just by chance those boy's found the body.

The most specific news article I've read on the time of death was from the Madison Wisconsin State Journal. The February 21, 1967 article stated Mary Ellen Kaldenberg did not die on the night she disappeared, according to a preliminary State Crime Laboratory report.

The laboratory's investigation shows death came later than the Thursday night of Feb 9. Officials said no specific date of death had been determined but that a substantial period of time passed before she was slain.

She was found by the children on the following Monday, February 13. After school, I assume. Depending on what day the snowfall occurred in between Thursday and Monday might help. Defining a "substantial period of time" would help even more. I assume they can tell how long it takes a human body to freeze at a certain temperature and the rate of decay at those temperatures.

I'm guessing if she didn't die the night she disappeared, the earliest would have been Friday night under cover of darkness. It would be taking a huge chance of discovery to drag her out there in the daytime and kill her.

pleasestandby
12-19-2014, 03:37 PM
I wonder if there's any connection to this murder and the murder-for-hire of the owner of Hub Drugstore Frank Eby on October 24, 1973? Maybe Mary Ellen Kaldenberg did make it to the drugstore and overheard or saw something she shouldn't have. Maybe she walked in on something going on that night.

When you have pharmacists allegedly hiring hit men to kill other pharmacists, especially the owner of Hub Drug, one has to wonder. Maybe the drugstore should have been searched.

Here's the article in the Milwaukee Journal.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19741114&id=4QcqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=-igEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7262,2087557

BugsMoran
12-19-2014, 04:14 PM
I wonder if there's any connection to this murder and the murder-for-hire of the owner of Hub Drugstore Frank Eby on October 24, 1973? Maybe Mary Ellen Kaldenberg did make it to the drugstore and overheard or saw something she shouldn't have. Maybe she walked in on something going on that night.

When you have pharmacists allegedly hiring hit men to kill other pharmacists, especially the owner of Hub Drug, one has to wonder. Maybe the drugstore should have been searched.

Here's the article in the Milwaukee Journal.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19741114&id=4QcqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=-igEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7262,2087557

Great find! One can never tell. The 6 or 7 year gap between the crimes may throw a monkey wrench into the spanner. Thank you for clearing up the time frame for me on her murder date. If we go with the witches coven theory for a moment, I wonder if she was walking to the store and she was spotted by some of their members (who knew her from school or the neighborhood) and they offered her a ride. Perhaps they enticed her to a party where there was beer and pot. Maybe she thought she was part of a cool and exciting group, and she willingly stayed with them at a members' home for a few nights. They lured her into the car pound as part of the group that was going to perform some sort of ritual in an abandoned hearse. It may have all been great fun until at the last moment she panicked and tried to bolt. That is when the struggle occurred, leaving marks upon her neck. The shoes could have come off during the fight and were put next to her as an afterthought. Once they had her inside of the hearse they ritually and brutally murdered her. A coven would have had enough members to drag her into the vehicle and then hold her down for the numerous stabbing.

I guess, however, the coven theory was a bit too advanced for Kenosha in 1967, and it seems like one of the members would have confessed to it by now. I don't believe a serial killer killed Mary Ellen. I think it was a one-off, and it was committed by somebody she knew. Perhaps she even trusted this person up until the very end. The problem with speculation, one can speculate many alternatives: none that happened. I don't know if I'd credit the murderer with any deep motivations.

pleasestandby
12-19-2014, 06:04 PM
Great find! One can never tell. The 6 or 7 year gap between the crimes may throw a monkey wrench into the spanner.

I'll go with the organized crime/ongoing criminal enterprise theory over the coven theory. It's not the end of the gap that might count here, it's the beginning. I'd suppose if the date when Hub Drugstore Frank Eby became owner (and not when he was murdered) was shortly after Kaldenberg's murder, then there might be a connection?

Maybe the message of ending up in a hearse was for the competition, and not for the general public? If you want to muscle in on the competition you send them a message, "What can happen to a customer can happen to you. Sell, or else you'll end up in a hearse."

No organized crime/ongoing criminal enterprises in Kenosha? Heck, maybe even the police are afraid to put this cold case on their website. No update in 46 years?

Maybe the syndicated newspapers are afraid, too. Their short attention span stopped only sixteen months later on May 29, 1968, the date of the last article ever printed on Kaldenberg, anywhere.

Great job on your reporting of this crime here. You are putting the newspapers to shame. I hope this crime is solved some day, in spite of the 46 year silence from the press and law enforcement.

ps: The killer was a serial killer. He murdered Mary Ellen's children, grandchildren, great grandchildren and so on. He's a mass murderer.

Ausgirl
12-19-2014, 07:30 PM
Just wanted to say a massive "thank you" to BugsMoran for all this local information, incredibly useful stuff and also helps us who weren't around to 'see' life there at the time. Much appreciated.

Thanks to pleasestandby too!

It's shocking to me that there's been no updates for almost 50 years!!! wth.

pleasestandby
12-20-2014, 01:59 PM
Thank you for your valuable insight, BugsMoran. It helps put the locations in perspective and may eventually help jog someone's memory. The Google Maps link below shows the most logical route from Mary Ellen's home at 2007 64th St. to Hub Drugs at 6300 22nd Ave. (a four minute walk one way according to Google) and would have taken her right by the diner at 22nd Ave & Roosevelt St. Since she never did make it to Hub Drugs, could the diner have factored into her disappearance?

And, of course, the impound lot was about eight blocks west of the drugstore at 30th Ave & 63rd St.

I updated the map to more accurately show your more exact location of Hub Drug, 6207 22nd Ave. The Frost Top is still a general location at 22nd Ave. & Roosevelt St., an address I don't have. Thanks again for your insight.

https://goo.gl/maps/DedBi