View Full Version : Conrad Murray trial -Day eight.
Soulmagent
10-06-2011, 09:08 AM
The state has made it case beyond a reasonable doubt at this point. It appears the only tactic the defence has is ..Well I cant think of a tactic that would put reasonable doubt into the case at all because of Murray admitting to giving him Propofol. They must have some idea of what they would like to present. Will there be lies of Jackson's staff be exposed? Are there witnesses to propofol use by MK without a doctor present? I doubt those issues would help Murray but it would certainly help get a handle on what was really going on in MJ's home.MOO.
TMZ
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150211&v=1&libid=1317387045927&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tmz.com%2F&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fuse rcp.php&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20three.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tmz.com%2F&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13173871051031
My Fox
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NewStar
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click2Hoston
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CNN
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Majicatl
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CNN Video
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Isabelle
10-06-2011, 11:37 AM
I would like to see Dr. Murray's documentation of care given to Michael while in his home. Certainly Dr. Murray didn't think he was above documenting care, did he? Stupid is as stupid does!
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 11:38 AM
The TH's on IS keep asking why Dr. Murray taped MJ, Sunny just nailed it, Murray did it for insurance - to cash in when his tour of duty was over or in the event it ended early.
Talina
10-06-2011, 11:39 AM
The TH's on IS keep asking why Dr. Murray taped MJ, Sunny just nailed it, Murray did it for insurance - to cash in when his tour of duty was over or in the event it ended early.
I've thought the exact same thing.
Talina
10-06-2011, 11:54 AM
Here we go. First witness up: Ms. Fleak testimony continuing.
weedemout
10-06-2011, 11:58 AM
who is this witness? I missed the trial 4 two days.
joe jones
10-06-2011, 11:59 AM
now we see what the defence will be claiming, that MJ gave himself that syringe full of propofol that was attached to the saline bag,
weedemout
10-06-2011, 12:00 PM
I wonder how much those sheriffs make sitting there doing nothing all day?
joe jones
10-06-2011, 12:01 PM
many companies must be loving the free advertising that they are getting, CM I phone was mentioned over and over again free advertising for Apple and off topic but sad to see Steve Jobs has died, and now Bose getting a free plug
Talina
10-06-2011, 12:02 PM
Pros asking Ms. Fleak about syringe she found attached to IV. Showing a photo of the iv bag on stand and a syringe is attached to the iv tube via needle being inserted into the iv tube. The witness confirms plunger is fully depressed (syringe appears to be empty).
Pros asking Ms. Fleak about finding a Bose radio/CD player on the bed with a CD on the bed next to the player. Shows photo and witness confirms that is the photo.
Pros asking witness about initial date on June 25, going into bathroom and photo general area. Witness confirms photos were taken, clothing on floor. Showing black bomber jacket and black pants on floor of bathroom. (note by me: looks like the clothes MJ is shown to be wearing in that last rehearsal video the night before).
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 12:02 PM
who is this witness? I missed the trial 4 two days.
Ms. Fleak with the coroners office. She investigated the home and is explaining what is in the pictures and what she saw,collected.
Talina
10-06-2011, 12:03 PM
who is this witness? I missed the trial 4 two days.
Elissa Fleak - LA Investigator with Coroner's office
21merc7
10-06-2011, 12:03 PM
I wonder how much those sheriffs make sitting there doing nothing all day?
This link shows starting salaries, scroll down to the titles under "choose a career" and click titles:
http://la-sheriff.org/recruitment/index-sworn.html
weedemout
10-06-2011, 12:06 PM
know wonder california is broke.
Thundar
10-06-2011, 12:09 PM
Witness's fingerprint ended up on a syringe. Glad prosecutor is clearing this up because I bet defense could have a field day with it.
Talina
10-06-2011, 12:12 PM
Pros showing picture of syringe on nightstand with no needle attached. Asking about IV catheter she collected under the ambu bag on the floor.
Did she initially book both syringe and iv catheter as a "broken syringe". She said yes she did initially described them that way and should have described them as a depressed syringe and an iv catheter on the ground. She is saying she described them wrong initially and has corrected that. Upon observing on a subsequent day, her initial observation of them was incorrect.
Pros asking about syringe and if she is aware that her thumbprint was located on the syringe and matched to her thumb. She says yes, she found that out later. She said she typically wears gloves so she does not know how it happened. Possibly moving table to take photos or something else later must have been when that happened.
He is asking her about why she moved the table and she said she moved the table in order to take a better photo of the propofol bottle that was on the floor by the table.
Pros now asking about subpoena she issued regarding the medical records of MJ.
Chernoff contacted Ms. Fleak and he instructed her that all contact go through him to Dr.. Murray. This was on June 29. The subpoena was issued to Dr. Murray but delivered to Mr. Chernoff based on is instructions on June 29.
the subpoena covered all medical records, including mental records. It was delivered on Jul 1. Chernoff responded and indicated he was enclosing the medical records.
Pros asking if any of the records included any of the events surrounding June 25 or any time from April 2009 to June 2009. Ms. Fleak says no, all records were prior to those dates.
joe jones
10-06-2011, 12:15 PM
Witness's fingerprint ended up on a syringe. Glad prosecutor is clearing this up because I bet defense could have a field day with it.
still will, it is sloppy practice for one of the on scene investigators to leave a print on evidence, and the defence has the chance then to cast aspersions on all there evidence collection and processing,
weedemout
10-06-2011, 12:17 PM
still will, it is sloppy practice for one of the on scene investigators to leave a print on evidence, and the defence has the chance then to cast aspersions on all there evidence collection and processing,
*rolls eyes*
I hope when they start that mess she says "yes, mike and I were homies, I'd come over and shoot him up between episodes of young and the restless, you didn't know?"
Thundar
10-06-2011, 12:19 PM
There was an item on one of the records for an Rx of "Youth Essence Moisturizing Creme". I wonder how much that costs, I could use some.
Amity
10-06-2011, 12:20 PM
I have an old computer, an even older monitor so most of the video/live feed I am seeing is very, Very dark (with brightness turned all the way up) and a few are grainy.
I went in search of other Live Feeds and found these 3.
Some of you might be having the same trouble with dark or grainy feeds...so here's a few more you can try.
L.A. Times Local
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/michael-jackson-trial/
USTREAM
http://www.ustream.tv/conradmurraytrial#utm_campaign=synclickback&source=http://www.mediaite.com/online/watch-dr-conrad-murray-trial-via-live-stream/&medium=9407213
ABC Channel 7 Local
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/livenow?id=8366366
Talina
10-06-2011, 12:20 PM
Pros going over the medical records now. Records are for "omar arnold" with initialls MJJ, "paul farnce" with initials MJJ beside it, Michael Jackson,
Nothing too revealing in these records yet (pros just going over dates mostly only minor references to things like robotussin, etc). Some are insurance forms, some are blank patient consent forms, medical publication forms, and various minor. Most of these records seem to be for various months 2008, 2007, 2006.
Echo report Jan 17 2007 for Michael Jackson. Next page of same document states patient Omar Arnold.
Next page is Paul Farance Nov 13 2007 Tower St John Imaging (several pages of this same date and provider).
Steinburg Diagnostics - Michael Jackson
Now another one with Mike Smith and then marked out with Omar Arnold written in.
Lots of documents with dates confirmed but nothing later than very early 2009.
Chernoff said this is all the records relating to Michael Jackson.
Thundar
10-06-2011, 12:23 PM
Defense now. Wants to talk about the witness's role in the investigation. So you understand the importance of your job? Witness, yes.
Defense reading what she said her job was yesterday. Cause of death, mode of death. Yes.
joe jones
10-06-2011, 12:23 PM
so all the time he was administering propofol he was not keeping records, no records of what drugs, what time/date given, what dose etc
no monitoring of vitals being recorded and kept,
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 12:24 PM
Yikes, did CM keep secret records for the last months of MJ's life or no records so he couldn't be tracked?
This is why I always insist on a nurse being present when I am examined, treated etc.
weedemout
10-06-2011, 12:29 PM
crackheads don't keep records either.my point... he's not there to do what a dr. would usually do. He was just a drug dealer.
Talina
10-06-2011, 12:29 PM
Pros done with direct. Cross starting
Def asking if there are photos she took that were not entered into evidence. She said yes, there are more photos.
Def ask her role in the investigation. When she was called out on Jun 25, she was called out as the coroner investigator. She said yes. Def is confirming by that time she had been an investigator for 6 years and understand the importance of her job.
Witness says yes.
Def: you collect evidence, complete reports to determine CoD
Wit: yes
(elaborating along this line of questioning - he's headed somewhere with this line of questioning)
Def: Now, when you went down on June 25, you were the one in charge of collecting evidence and chronicling it?
Wit: Yes
She clarified it was in conjunction with police agency and was not the person in charge of the photographing, although she did take photos herself as well.
Def asks who else was there, she is naming the detectives and said her supervisor (Ed Winters) was also there.
Now asking about June 29.
June 29 was in response to information from Det Smith
Wit: yes
Wit said she was told there was additional information from Dr. Murray and that there was additional medical evidence to collect from a room off to the side of the bedroom.
Once arriving at the residence, Det Smith directed witness to the closet where he was told would have the additional items to be collected.
Thundar
10-06-2011, 12:29 PM
The witness is being really careful with her answers here. Defense is going around in circles again trying to get something out of this witness, but I have no idea what.
People's 128, a picture of the closet.
so all the time he was administering propofol he was not keeping records, no records of what drugs, what time/date given, what dose etc
no monitoring of vitals being recorded and kept,
And this should surprise us?
Thundar
10-06-2011, 12:32 PM
People's 135, inside the bag, picture.
Defense digging under his table now. Found a picture and numbered it. Was that picture entered into evidence? Stuff from bag laid out on a table. Witness does not know if she took the picture or if LAPD did. Witness was standing close observing.
weedemout
10-06-2011, 12:33 PM
he's not that stupid...enough to leave a trail of notes behind.
Thundar
10-06-2011, 12:33 PM
Now defense is showing another picture he labeled defense n, now defense o. How can defense enter pictures that prosecution hasn't entered into evidence yet?
Talina
10-06-2011, 12:36 PM
Def asking about witness removing bags and placing items on table for photographing.
Witness confirming yes, this is what happened but does not recall specifically if it was her or a LAPD detective that removed and photo'd the items but that she was there when it all occurred.
Def showing photo that he has entered into evidence. Witness says this is a photo that came out of blue cosco bag.
Def keeps asking witness every she move was making while this evidence was being taken out of bag and photographed. She answers observing, taking notes, taking some photos.
Def entering another photo of same items asking her again if she is the one that took the photo. She does not remember who took it. Again, yet another photo of same various items collected from the bags. (making a big deal it seems to me about why items were in different spots in different photographs - not sure why)
Thundar
10-06-2011, 12:36 PM
That saline bag is not cut on the top, it is slit right down the center going up and down.
Thundar
10-06-2011, 12:41 PM
She has 3a forms, logs, and narritives. Now defense is asking about her case notes.
Thundar
10-06-2011, 12:42 PM
Witness never wrote in any notes that the propofol bottle was inside the saline bag. That's where the defense is going with this questioning.
Thundar
10-06-2011, 12:43 PM
Defense asked who told her to revise her notes to reflect the propofol bottle in the saline bag.
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 12:45 PM
Morning all Bash present and accounted for :seeya:
Missed the end witness yesterday but thanks in the thread trial for the catch up. WOW just the amount of pills the amount of his addiction the depths just astounds me. Most middle americans could not funtion on the level of addiction but MJ had the people in place to allow him to sink to these depths and ran his world for him. Again I have to say it is a pity that so many more are not on trial for their part in allowing MJ to go there be there and hide away in a room of pills and IV Bags.
Cortne
10-06-2011, 12:45 PM
Hmmm wow interesting info coming out
Thundar
10-06-2011, 12:49 PM
Defense is trying to make it look terrible that witness destroyed her notes from the June 25th scene. She explained that destroying the hand written notes is normal procedure.
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 12:49 PM
LOL I hit on one of Soulmagnet Links and it was CNN but it was someone babbleing about the Cain and running for something but I was just a listening and then was like WTH???? MJ was running for what MJ couldnt even get to the POtty himself had to have a tube............Clicky and was like crap I am a fool LOL....
Sorry jsut a little laugh in the middle of just sadness ;)
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 12:49 PM
Propofol bottle could have fallen out of saline bag when stashed. Alvarez could be the only witness that saw it inside the saline bag. Any medical person would want to know why the saline bag was cut open; no one would do this since the interior is sterile, that is, no one except Dr. Murray.
Talina
10-06-2011, 12:49 PM
side note by me: Chernoff comes across to me as though he views this trial as a complete waste of his time. Heavy sighs and flaying of hands/arms, irritable tone to voice.
Asking about the three 3A forms. Asks wit to describe what the form is and she says one of their forms to document medical evidence.
He asks about her narrative and asks her to describe what a narrative is (weird question, the description speaks for itself to me)
Now asking her if she has coroner cases notes and what those contain. She says those notes contain notes that may not have been in the narrative or form 3A.
Def showing her case notes and asking if those are her case notes.
Wit: yes
Now asking her about where her notes said there was a propofol bottle inside the IV bag.
Wit says she did not write that down in her report or notes.
Def asking if Mar 29 2011 was first time she wrote this down
Wit yes
Def who asked her to revise this
Pros objected
Judge sustained
Def do you remember a week before those notes were taken, meeting with me at coroner's office
wit yes
Def now naming who else was at the meeting, (several attys, coroner, toxocoligist)
wit yes
def do you remember me asking you about that iv bag
wit no i don't remember that
def do you not remember me asking and the coroner said "stop right there you need to ask these questions in writing"
pros objected
judge sustained
def when was the first time you put this in writing on your report
wit i don't remember
def wasn't it when you heard a witness had described it that way
wit no i've never talked to a witness
def well didn't you hear alvarez describe it this way
wit no
def still asking questions trying to get witness to admit to something
pro objecting
judge sustained
def asking about notes being destroyed
wit always destroys notes from scene once she writes her 3A report
def asking why she does this
wit i do that in all my cases
def ms fleak would you agree with me that you made a substantial number of mistakes in this case
wit no
def would you agree with me that if you don't take notes and don't keep your notes, that is bad investigated technique
wit no
def then why do you take notes
wit to complete your report
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 12:50 PM
I know it is SOP, but I really wish they wouldn't destroy notes. JMO
Talina
10-06-2011, 12:51 PM
afk for a bit
peace9274
10-06-2011, 12:52 PM
As a nurse, I have taken notes during a code and then filled out incident forms later, referring to my original notes.
I do not save my original "shorthanded, scrawled" notes, either. Do any of you other nurses?
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 12:54 PM
Oh my I like her she gots the Fisty in her Go girl GO!!!!!!!
I git a thumb for you MR Defense
Thundar
10-06-2011, 12:54 PM
Here we go
Defense asking about the thumb print. Asked if witness considered any of that a mistake.
peace9274
10-06-2011, 12:55 PM
I still don't understand the bottle of propofol inside the cut saline bag....
Cortne
10-06-2011, 12:57 PM
I know it is SOP, but I really wish they wouldn't destroy notes. JMO
For this case I wish they would have saved everything.
Im sure they wish as well.
Doesnt matter much but the defense is doing a good job today imo.
21merc7
10-06-2011, 12:57 PM
I know it is SOP, but I really wish they wouldn't destroy notes. JMO
I agree. I don't understand why all LE has not changed this procedure. They should have to keep them or attach them to these forms. Never know when a case will come back to prove guilt or innocence and every little bit is needed. Notes can be helpful to jog the memory, and the forms are rushed due to other work. Should have changed years ago, for the ENTIRE United States.
joe jones
10-06-2011, 12:58 PM
and more sloppy practice, no photo of vital evidence found on the floor but photos after it was moved to the table, some jurors may question the scene investigation,
I have always said that the first thing that should be done at every crime scene or suspicious death is the whole scene should be videotaped, then it would remove all this insinuation that defence attys do because evidence wasn't collected properly etc
with a video of the scene and close ups of important evidence then it documents the scene as found,
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 12:59 PM
I still don't understand the bottle of propofol inside the cut saline bag....
I thought at first that DrM was compartmentalizing you when you pick up trach I would stuff a papertowel in a box as I am cleaning up a room to save hands(if that makes sense) but others with medical training I think aare theorizing that the milk was in the bag as a crude drip system that dump way to much into his system. Sorry I am not sure who said that and I hope I got that right :fence:
joe jones
10-06-2011, 01:02 PM
For this case I wish they would have saved everything.
Im sure they wish as well.
Doesnt matter much but the defense is doing a good job today imo.
he is doing much better, initially his cross were poor but now he has stuff to work with he is forensic in his exam
and he is showing many things not done correctly, sloppy practices ie the fingerprint, never documenting the propofol bag was inside the saline bag, revising her notes after a meeting pre trial,
peace9274
10-06-2011, 01:03 PM
When doing meds, I've also taken notes during the shift, regarding the times given, patients' complaints, effects of meds, etc.
Then when time allows, I document into the patients' charts.
I always throw those notes away, also. My guess is that most people
do the same. This guy is a jerk for questioning why Ms Fleak threw her
notes away. If like mine, prolly no one could read them except her.
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 01:04 PM
So if the DT is after what?? To prove the seen was compromised?? Proofing what?? MJ did from a propofal od DrM admitted admin the propofal what could be compromised???? Confussed
joe jones
10-06-2011, 01:06 PM
for me he has damaged her opinions and credibilty as a professional investigator, considering the high profile nature of the case this was a dead MJ I would have expected the best and most experienced investigators to have been used
not one who left a print on evidence or does not document one of the most vital pieces of evidence ie the propofol inside the cut bag
Amity
10-06-2011, 01:08 PM
Oh my I like her she gots the Fisty in her Go girl GO!!!!!!!
I git a thumb for you MR Defense
She does.
But I noticed a change in her voice/pitch when asked certain questions.
Her responses to some of the questions.....she responds in a tone as if she is being accused of something. Wish I knew how to explain it better....dang I hate that I have such terrible grammar, sentence structure and Nooooo ability to explain in type what my gray matter is thinking. :maddening:
But anyway, many questions she starts and ends her response almost as if feeling attacked. I wish she would keep her voice/tone consistent like she did when she was asked questions by the Pros.
To me, the trials I've seen, as soon as the witness changes the way they respond when the other side is asking the questions, the jury sits up and takes notice.
I wish someone could send her a coded secret message to keep her responses clear and not sounding like she's being accused. She needs to sound/feel totally confident like she did when Pro was asking her questions.
Cortne
10-06-2011, 01:09 PM
So if the DT is after what?? To prove the seen was compromised?? Proofing what?? MJ did from a propofal od DrM admitted admin the propofal what could be compromised???? Confussed
Good ole doubt casting.
Defense found a weak spot today. Im surprised. Conrad must be as well, his face isnt as long today. Lol. Dont care for him at all. We arent rich and famous but MJ could have been anybodys father brother son. :banghead:
peace9274
10-06-2011, 01:09 PM
I think he needs to be more concerned that there's
no doctor's notes whatsoever during this time!
joe jones
10-06-2011, 01:14 PM
I think he needs to be more concerned that there's
no doctor's notes whatsoever during this time!
he will have his very own explanation for that, today he is putting this investigators feet to the fire and imo he has burnt them
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 01:16 PM
Forgive me, I missed it, but who is this Winters guy and why is it important where he is now? Did he screw up something? I haven't followed this case since MJ's death.
joe jones
10-06-2011, 01:18 PM
Forgive me, I missed it, but who is this Winters guy and why is it important where he is now? Did he screw up something? I haven't followed this case since MJ's death.
he was Ms Fleaks supervisor on the scene, and did other scene visits when she was not present
I am wondering if state will call him, if not defence has been clever in insinuating state has something to hide and that's why they are not calling him
I think the defence atty has finally been roused and is beginning to actually defend CM
joe jones
10-06-2011, 01:19 PM
anybody know if CM has money and how he is paying for at least 3 defence attys plus investigators
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 01:21 PM
he was Ms Fleaks supervisor on the scene, and did other scene visits when she was not present
I am wondering if state will call him, if not defence has been clever in insinuating state has something to hide and that's why they are not calling him
I think the defence atty has finally been roused and is beginning to actually defend CM
Thank you :)
Although I do think so far that Dr. M is guilty, I really dislike the state trying to conceal important info. I want him to have a fair trial with all the facts.
Talina
10-06-2011, 01:22 PM
From what I heard while I was able to listen while doing the kitchen chores, it appears to me that the prosecution has some damage control do to on redirect. The def has asks some questions of the investigator that have damaged some areas of her investigation IMO.
I don't care for the def atty's demeanor at all but he has done a good job at cross examination and the issue with the bottle of propofol is very important, I would think. However, it is conceivable to me that the bottle could have fallen out of the cut in the bag while all this was going on putting these items in the bag. If the investigator didn't see it that way when it was in the bag is no big deal to me, but she certainly shouldn't say she saw it that way if she didn't. I'm not sure I believe she saw it that way now that I've heard the cross. Will have to wait on redirect to see if there is a reasonable explanation for the report being revised.
borndem
10-06-2011, 01:24 PM
Def asking about witness removing bags and placing items on table for photographing.
Witness confirming yes, this is what happened but does not recall specifically if it was her or a LAPD detective that removed and photo'd the items but that she was there when it all occurred.
Def showing photo that he has entered into evidence. Witness says this is a photo that came out of blue cosco bag.
Def keeps asking witness every she move was making while this evidence was being taken out of bag and photographed. She answers observing, taking notes, taking some photos.
Def entering another photo of same items asking her again if she is the one that took the photo. She does not remember who took it. Again, yet another photo of same various items collected from the bags. (making a big deal it seems to me about why items were in different spots in different photographs - not sure why)
He's doing about all he can do.....trying to make her look incompetent and not smart, doing a less than thorough job, etc., and trying to impeach her testimony -- trying to create doubt, doubt, and doubt.
He's going through a lot of tedium, but he may score a point. We'll see. The judge is calling it closely & not giving him (or any other principal) any latitude. Hizzoner is not missing a thing.
(Baez would have already spontaneously combusted in this courtroom. We'd have lost him on about Day 2. Little pieces of Baez all over the walls...and maybe a slight whimper here or there.) http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif I just couldn't help myself.
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 01:26 PM
As a nurse, I have taken notes during a code and then filled out incident forms later, referring to my original notes.
I do not save my original "shorthanded, scrawled" notes, either. Do any of you other nurses?
Neither do I.
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 01:27 PM
Good ole doubt casting.
Defense found a weak spot today. Im surprised. Conrad must be as well, his face isnt as long today. Lol. Dont care for him at all. We arent rich and famous but MJ could have been anybodys father brother son. :banghead:
I agree Cortne, I do not find his facial expression and deminure to solicit a compassionate vibe for me. He often loks arrogent and self righteous and on looks alone quite a Las Vegas Lounge singer type.....er maybe a Vegas stripper lounge singer LOL But darn it all if he doesnt have snazzy tie's.
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 01:28 PM
I know it is SOP, but I really wish they wouldn't destroy notes. JMO
On the other hand if she had kept her notes and they did say the propofol bottle was inside the bag, the DT would say she had time to alter her notes. She's between a rock and hard place!
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 01:31 PM
(Baez would have already spontaneously combusted in this courtroom. We'd have lost him on about Day 2. Little pieces of Baez all over the walls...and maybe a slight whimper here or there.) http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif I just couldn't help myself.
LOL Bash just spit Rockstar Energy drink on her computer and then fell out of her chair Ahhhhh Thank you I needed that :crazy::rocker:
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 01:32 PM
I still don't understand the bottle of propofol inside the cut saline bag....
That really perplexed me too, and I've been an RN for 26 years. The propofol bottle did not have a loop for hanging, so Murray cut open the saline bag, drained out the saline, put the propofol bottle in the bag and spiked the bottle through the saline port, or through the rubber stopper of the bottle itself. I know that the bottle is not vented, so am wanting to see the IV tubing again to see if there is a vent port on the tubing near or at the top of the drip chamber. This allowed Dr. Murray to deliver propofol via gravity flow! Imagine that! He gets an "A" for creativity!
Talina
10-06-2011, 01:32 PM
I know it is SOP, but I really wish they wouldn't destroy notes. JMO
IMO, it is best that notes are destroyed after the written reports are completed. Imagine years down the road a crime is finally solved and going to trial. During discovery, notes and full written reports are given over as part of the discovery. Several things could go terribly wrong with notes being part of the discovery. What if the original investigator is no longer around? Someone is going to decipher their writing and scribbling and there is no one to dispute what is being deciphered. Opens up a lot of room for someone to claim they say something they don't, accuse police/det of not writing correct report, etc.
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 01:36 PM
That really perplexed me too, and I've been an RN for 26 years. The propofol bottle did not have a loop for hanging, so Murray cut open the saline bag, drained out the saline, put the propofol bottle in the bag and spiked the bottle through the saline port, or through the rubber stopper of the bottle itself. I know that the bottle is not vented, so am wanting to see the IV tubing again to see if there is a vent port on the tubing near or at the top of the drip chamber. This allowed Dr. Murray to deliver propofol via gravity flow! Imagine that! He gets an "A" for creativity!
Ahhhh Thank You!!!! :great: So I give my self B Vitamin shots I have to pull the plunger back and then shoot the air in to the bottle that has a rubber top to get the syring to fill if I dont nothing goes into the syringe. Same Principle Isabelle????????
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 01:37 PM
Ahhhh Thank You!!!! :great: So I give my self B Vitamin shots I have to pull the plunger back and then shoot the air in to the bottle that has a rubber top to get the syring to fill if I dont nothing goes into the syringe. Same Principle Isabelle????????
Exactly!
peace9274
10-06-2011, 01:38 PM
That really perplexed me too, and I've been an RN for 26 years. The propofol bottle did not have a loop for hanging, so Murray cut open the saline bag, drained out the saline, put the propofol bottle in the bag and spiked the bottle through the saline port, or through the rubber stopper of the bottle itself. I know that the bottle is not vented, so am wanting to see the IV tubing again to see if there is a vent port on the tubing near or at the top of the drip chamber. This allowed Dr. Murray to deliver propofol via gravity flow! Imagine that! He gets an "A" for creativity!
So did he insert the IV tubing directly into the vial of propofol and used the slit saline bag as a holder for the vial,
so it could hang on the IV pole???
But I still don't see the propofol flowing down the tubing and into a vein.... ???
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 01:39 PM
If there was no vent port on the IV tubing, Dr. Murray would have had to insert a needle without syringe into the propofol bottle stopper to allow air to enter, thus allowing fluid to escape. Without venting of the propofol bottle, nothing would flow.
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 01:41 PM
So did he insert the IV tubing directly into the vial of propofol and used the slit saline bag as a holder for the vial, so it could hang on the IV pole???
Either that or he spiked the empty saline bag, then spiked the propofol bottle, sort of double spiked. Don't know that the spike is long enough to do this. Moral of the story is that this drug among many many others is never given by gravity flow.
peace9274
10-06-2011, 01:43 PM
So did he insert the IV tubing directly into the vial of propofol and used the slit saline bag as a holder for the vial,
so it could hang on the IV pole???
But I still don't see the propofol flowing down the tubing and into a vein.... ???
Why didn't he just empty the saline from the bag and inject the propofol directly into the saline bag?
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 01:43 PM
Trying to find the a picture that I believe came out in the Alverez Testimony of the bag with the bottle in it I agree Isabelle it eould have had to have something there provoding air for the milk to flow into the tubing.
peace9274
10-06-2011, 01:48 PM
Re the IV tubing being moved... from being placed over the knob... if the pole was moved or bumped, the tubing could've slid/slipped off the knob. Without anyone actually doing it.
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 01:49 PM
SHOW ME THE IV BAG!!!!!!! oh and NOW!!!!
Sorry must drop the ENergy drink
peace9274
10-06-2011, 01:51 PM
If there was no vent port on the IV tubing, Dr. Murray would have had to insert a needle without syringe into the propofol bottle stopper to allow air to enter, thus allowing fluid to escape. Without venting of the propofol bottle, nothing would flow.
Aha... that makes sense. But kinda troublesome!
I guess he needed to rig something up so he could
get to his phone calls.
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 01:57 PM
And Dr Kline's name comes out again I cant believe the defense is not calling him to the stand and IMO he is the one that probably and continuely keep MJ on his ultimate path to where he resides today. I their a law that I have not heard that prevents them from bringing this reakin dealer in to talk about what he was giveing MJ before and during this time???
Bash Rant....I want Kline on Trial DAMNIT!!!!!
Talina
10-06-2011, 01:59 PM
And Dr Kline's name comes out again I cant believe the defense is not calling him to the stand and IMO he is the one that probably and continuely keep MJ on his ultimate path to where he resides today. I their a law that I have not heard that prevents them from bringing this reakin dealer in to talk about what he was giveing MJ before and during this time???
Bash Rant....I want Kline on Trial DAMNIT!!!!!
From what I understand, the judge has ruled that Dr. Klein can not be called by the defense because toxicology reports showing nothing in his system that was ever given or prescribed by Dr. Klein. Someone correct me if I have that wrong.
joe jones
10-06-2011, 01:59 PM
I am still eagerly awaiting how the defence is going to explain the way MJ was found on the bed flat on his back, his face turned towards the door and his palms up if it was he who had given himself a massive overdose of propofol that he was dead before he shut his eyes,
if he died instantaneously then he would not have been found in that position, so will defence say that Dr Murray moved him
borndem
10-06-2011, 02:02 PM
and more sloppy practice, no photo of vital evidence found on the floor but photos after it was moved to the table, some jurors may question the scene investigation,
I have always said that the first thing that should be done at every crime scene or suspicious death is the whole scene should be videotaped, then it would remove all this insinuation that defence attys do because evidence wasn't collected properly etc
with a video of the scene and close ups of important evidence then it documents the scene as found,
I agree -- it protects everyone & leaves little or nothing for anyone to have to try to remember; and when someone is on the stand, under oath, they have something to help them remember and be more accurate. Yeah, what is it they say is worth 1,000 words????
Even here in Raleigh, NC, the LEO's have one officer videotaping first before anyone else goes into the scene, and then they have another officer, or more, with still cameras. They snap the item before anyone touches it.
IOW, just 'cause we talk slow don't mean we're stupid....http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 02:06 PM
From what I understand, the judge has ruled that Dr. Klein can not be called by the defense because toxicology reports showing nothing in his system that was ever given or prescribed by Dr. Klein. Someone correct me if I have that wrong.
Ahh thnak you I had not heard that
And......Bash just threw up in her mouth a little bit :sick:
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 02:06 PM
Alvarez never mentioned IV tubing connected to bag in which propofol bottle was. I would guess Dr. Murray removed it before anyone was on the scene.
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 02:07 PM
I am still eagerly awaiting how the defence is going to explain the way MJ was found on the bed flat on his back, his face turned towards the door and his palms up if it was he who had given himself a massive overdose of propofol that he was dead before he shut his eyes,
if he died instantaneously then he would not have been found in that position, so will defence say that Dr Murray moved him
Perhaps moved him for CPR **cough Cough**
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 02:08 PM
Why didn't he just empty the saline from the bag and inject the propofol directly into the saline bag?
Didn't want to take the time?? Don't know.
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 02:10 PM
Aha... that makes sense. But kinda troublesome!
I guess he needed to rig something up so he could
get to his phone calls.
Saved him from having to use two hands to give IV push propofol. Allowed him more time on the phone!
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 02:12 PM
No offense to this witness...but I bet her spouse is hard pressed to win any fights in the house LOL. I like her she ogts the snark I respect the snark ;) I dont think she was as good as she could have been at the scene espclly with the circumstance's of this case.
21merc7
10-06-2011, 02:12 PM
Someone mentioned maybe the saline bag was cut to use for disposal. That defies logic. Given all the other bags Murray had in the room, a simple trash bag would do, and I believe there was a grocery bag there already.
So, logic says why would you cut a saline bag in the first place? Next the bottle found it, don't know if the jury will now find doubt in that or not, but logic goes with putting bottle in for giving the propofol to patient with minimal effort on Murray's part. Just makes sense to me, but we will see what is said by defense.
joe jones
10-06-2011, 02:13 PM
Perhaps moved him for CPR **cough Cough**
of course, and this rehab of the victim is not helping, no matter how many times he asks her was this photo of the bag and propofol bottle taken by you and you took the bottle out of bag before photographing them
it still does not prove the bottle was ever in the bag, it is only her word for it and she never mentioned it till 2011, so jurors may have questions about her recall
and this was years after Alvarez had told the bottle in the bag story, but Alvarez credibility and recall is shot as he said he moved MJ to floor whilst he was on 911 call and it is now revealed that the paramedics moved MJ
Talina
10-06-2011, 02:17 PM
of course, and this rehab of the victim is not helping, no matter how many times he asks her was this photo of the bag and propofol bottle taken by you and you took the bottle out of bag before photographing them
it still does not prove the bottle was ever in the bag, it is only her word for it and she never mentioned it till 2011, so jurors may have questions about her recall
and this was years after Alvarez had told the bottle in the bag story, but Alvarez credibility and recall is shot as he said he moved MJ to floor whilst he was on 911 call and it is now revealed that the paramedics moved MJ
BBM
This is true however, she has stated that she was not alone there on the 25th or the 29th so I'm wondering if there are other investigators that will later through testimony corroborate this vial and iv bag.
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 02:17 PM
of course, and this rehab of the victim is not helping, no matter how many times he asks her was this photo of the bag and propofol bottle taken by you and you took the bottle out of bag before photographing them
it still does not prove the bottle was ever in the bag, it is only her word for it and she never mentioned it till 2011, so jurors may have questions about her recall
and this was years after Alvarez had told the bottle in the bag story, but Alvarez credibility and recall is shot as he said he moved MJ to floor whilst he was on 911 call and it is now revealed that the paramedics moved MJ
Absolutely Joe I have to give both of those witness's to to DT hate to say it but reasonable doubt has been created. I also like the snrky chik but I think she comes off very defensive and very stand offish when she doesnt like a question asked of her. If I was in Jury it wouldmake me think my my why are you hiding something missy.
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 02:19 PM
BBM
This is true however, she has stated that she was not alone there on the 25th or the 29th so I'm wondering if there are other investigators that will later through testimony corroborate this vial and iv bag.
But without and actual photo of it all just words just words.
joe jones
10-06-2011, 02:19 PM
BBM
This is true however, she has stated that she was not alone there on the 25th or the 29th so I'm wondering if there are other investigators that will later through testimony corroborate this vial and iv bag.
with state trying so hard to rehab her bottle in bag story I don't think they have any other witness to it, if they did they would not be going over and over it with her
Amity
10-06-2011, 02:21 PM
About those notes.......
Some of you know, my elderly (and not in the best of health) parents live with us now.
There was our first time calling 911 for my Dad.
Sirens blaring we got a huge fire truck, a red rescue truck and an ambulance on the curb of our house within 3 minutes.
Four huge firemen in full gear entered the house first.
First question asked of me by the guy in full gear that got off the long, red fire truck was what had occurred all day to bring us to this situation.
I literally stumbled all over my words trying to remember best I could all that had transpired that day.
Three rescue guys came in and one of them asked about all medications Dad was taking.
Again, I was spitting on myself trying to get out the information, correctly and best as I could remember.
Then three ambulance guys came in (I live in a very small house and boy, was it packed by the time they all entered) and the first one at Dad's side asked the above 2 same questions.
I will never forget how I felt.....totally inept, completely helpless, not being able to whip out the meds/history information in a clear and concise form.
I remember thinking to myself that if anything happened to my Dad, it would be my fault cuz I was sure I had forgotten something.
That was almost six years ago and thankfully all turned out OK but ever since then I keep a pad and pen in the drawers of both my parents' nightstands.
With all the meds they take on a regular basis, add to that extra meds they need when something goes wrong, that's a lot for me to remember so now I document, document, document.
I keep my notes (they would look like chicken scratches in the sand to anyone else who tried to read them) 24 hours and then rip them up in little pieces and throw in the trash.
Because of my penmanship, there is no way those notes would be useful to anyone else but me.
There have been 6 other occasions since, where we've had to call 911 and those notes, for me, were priceless.
All this to say that I personally don't feel the destruction of forensic's notes is any big deal especially since the information was FIRST copied over to a formal form.
Maybe I missed something.
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 02:21 PM
Defense really got in some good points today. It will be interesting to see who is up next. That really bothers me that she didn't take a photo of the bag first before manipulating it.
21merc7
10-06-2011, 02:23 PM
I understand the witnesses defensiveness. I have actually been able to watch a little of the trial today, no boss here yet. The defense attorney is being snide, putting her down by treating her as if she is a five year old, and has been told by the Judge he is being argumentative. I would be a bit defensive too.
I realize the fingerprint on the bottle is a big mistake, and the lack of notation on the other bottle, but the defense attorney does not have to treat her as a common criminal with total disrespect to win favor or subliminal thought from the jurors. His attitude can make or break his case.
Hopefully other investigators will have this cleared up, as I do think she made a mistake not noting where that bottle of propofol was. Understandable error, but still a big deal in a trial.
Talina
10-06-2011, 02:24 PM
with state trying so hard to rehab her bottle in bag story I don't think they have any other witness to it, if they did they would not be going over and over it with her
Perhaps that is the case. I'm not convinced at this point though.
I would think they would want to rehab her testimony as much as they could whether or not they had other witnesses that would back up anything or everything she said just so the jury is not left with all the damage the defense was able to accomplish.
joe jones
10-06-2011, 02:26 PM
Absolutely Joe I have to give both of those witness's to to DT hate to say it but reasonable doubt has been created. I also like the snrky chik but I think she comes off very defensive and very stand offish when she doesnt like a question asked of her. If I was in Jury it wouldmake me think my my why are you hiding something missy.
he has done a great cross, his pointed questions such as are you as sure of that as you are that you saw a bottle in a bag will resonate,
her initial I never made mistakes was moved by his questioning to I may have made some mistakes, I may have done things differently with hindsight will resonate
her I documented the bag as I was not going to collect it was a big boo boo as defence zeroed straight into that mistep as to why if you can document a trash bag you threw away you tampered with vital evidence before taking a photo of it (not verbatim)
I think she appeared defensive at times, and did not like being challenged on things she did not do correctly, and I think she will be a witness who the jurors will remember
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 02:29 PM
Pros. is reading a stipulation regarding the finger prints on the meds. So far no MJ prints.
joe jones
10-06-2011, 02:30 PM
anybody hear what print of CM was found where, I heard they matched 1 print - was it on the syringe
Talina
10-06-2011, 02:32 PM
anybody hear what print of CM was found where, I heard they matched 1 print - was it on the syringe
It was on a propofol bottle.
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 02:32 PM
anybody hear what print of CM was found where, I heard they matched 1 print - was it on the syringe
iirc index finger on a propofol bottle.
peace9274
10-06-2011, 02:34 PM
I understand the witnesses defensiveness. I have actually been able to watch a little of the trial today, no boss here yet. The defense attorney is being snide, putting her down by treating her as if she is a five year old, and has been told by the Judge he is being argumentative. I would be a bit defensive too.
Snipped & bolded by me.
I agree with what you said... especially since he's so unorganized
& has said, "I forgot" about something.
Talina
10-06-2011, 02:34 PM
Next witness: Dan Anderson - toxicologist and criminologist with LA Coroner Office since 1990
joe jones
10-06-2011, 02:35 PM
here comes the toxicologist, the science will be lost on me so I may be posting some stupid questions that I will need help with
the science that the defence said is coming into there case has already skeered me
Thundar
10-06-2011, 02:38 PM
Oh please after all this talk about his qualifications don't let there be any mistakes in this part of the testimony. I will be so disappointed if this testimony is not picture perfect.
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 02:38 PM
here comes the toxicologist, the science will be lost on me so I may be posting some stupid questions that I will need help with
the science that the defence said is coming into there case has already skeered me
I'll be right behind you with probably the same questions! :seeya:
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 02:42 PM
here comes the toxicologist, the science will be lost on me so I may be posting some stupid questions that I will need help with
the science that the defence said is coming into there case has already skeered me
I'll be right behind you with probably the same questions! :seeya:
Me Three!!!!
peace9274
10-06-2011, 02:42 PM
Rigamarole???
Thundar
10-06-2011, 02:43 PM
Rigamarole???
Not a scientific term but merely this toxicologist's word. BAAAAWAAAA catch breath, BAAAAWAAAAA
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 02:44 PM
Maybe it is just me, but that shot of CM looked like he perked up when this man began his testimony.
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 02:46 PM
I like this guy he is so peepy about his job reminds me of the Bug Doctor (Dr Vass ??)from Anthony trial I might get a nerd crush on this guy too.
peace9274
10-06-2011, 02:46 PM
TMI !!!
This guy spends too much time alone in the lab.
Talina
10-06-2011, 02:47 PM
He's quite animated in his description of the process of evaluating samples for toxicology results. (yes, he does resemble Dr. Vass in his excitement about his profession)
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 02:48 PM
But is he a chemist? (go a head and throw rotten maters at me)
joe jones
10-06-2011, 02:48 PM
I love geeky, nerdy witnesses (and I don't mean that unkindly) I just get lost in the substance of there testimony
joe jones
10-06-2011, 02:49 PM
But is he a chemist? (go a head and throw rotten maters at me)
I missed what his first degree was in, Masters in criminology
Talina
10-06-2011, 02:49 PM
Okay, finally to the testimony relevant to this case. Talking about receiving 4 vials of blood for testing. Also, other samples given to him by coroner for testing. Edited to clarify: samples from coroner were various biological specimens.
Witness was present for autopsy.
joe jones
10-06-2011, 02:50 PM
stomach contents may be an issue
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 02:50 PM
But is he a chemist? (go a head and throw rotten maters at me)
and does he BlOOOOOOg???? Sorry ducks behind October so she gets the matters first:floorlaugh:
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 02:51 PM
He was in on part of the autopsy.
I like that he looks at the jury.
21merc7
10-06-2011, 02:56 PM
Help, I can't watch again, whaaaahhh, boss is here now. I miss all the good stuff.
Please post as much as you can. Don't worry about spelling, I can't spell any of it either.
:tyou:
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 02:57 PM
micrograms are larger than nanograms.
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 02:58 PM
I saw 2.6 ug/ml (ug=micrograms) but I have no clue what it means
It was listed after Propofal
Thundar
10-06-2011, 02:59 PM
There was 2.6 ug/ml of propofol in that page of the report. Was that the heart blood or the femeral blood? I didn't catch that and could hardly read any of the report, except I caught the propofol at the top.
In break now.
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 03:00 PM
NOOOOOO No Break
Talina
10-06-2011, 03:00 PM
Help, I can't watch again, whaaaahhh, boss is here now. I miss all the good stuff.
Please post as much as you can. Don't worry about spelling, I can't spell any of it either.
:tyou:
The just spent time going over the different columns in the report and identified what each column is reporting.
They did not get into any results in the report yet and have taken the lunch break.
The actual details of the toxicology report will be after lunch.
joe jones
10-06-2011, 03:00 PM
I won't understand it but I hope the toxicology report gets put online,
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 03:18 PM
Oh dear, Jean C. on HLN is saying she thinks the jurors like Chertoff. (sigh)
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 03:19 PM
I won't understand it but I hope the toxicology report gets put online,
Oh no worries the Ladies of HLN will be giving you their honest and unbasised opinion of the report tonight........<insert HUGE sarcastic eye roll....now>
Thundar
10-06-2011, 03:28 PM
Oh dear, Jean C. on HLN is saying she thinks the jurors like Chertoff. (sigh)
Last night she was reporting how attentively the jurors are taking notes. (If I recall correctly that is the same as she reported on the last big trial HLN covered) I don't think it means anything.
borndem
10-06-2011, 03:29 PM
She does.
But I noticed a change in her voice/pitch when asked certain questions.
Her responses to some of the questions.....she responds in a tone as if she is being accused of something. Wish I knew how to explain it better....dang I hate that I have such terrible grammar, sentence structure and Nooooo ability to explain in type what my gray matter is thinking. :maddening:
But anyway, many questions she starts and ends her response almost as if feeling attacked. I wish she would keep her voice/tone consistent like she did when she was asked questions by the Pros.
To me, the trials I've seen, as soon as the witness changes the way they respond when the other side is asking the questions, the jury sits up and takes notice.
I wish someone could send her a coded secret message to keep her responses clear and not sounding like she's being accused. She needs to sound/feel totally confident like she did when Pro was asking her questions.
Yes, Amity, I heard & sensed it, too -- her composure & manner of response did change, but it was mainly after the DT had already asked her a few questions about her investigation, etc., etc., and then his manner became accusatory. He then used the word "incompetent" in there somewhere, so she bowed her neck a bit and became a bit stiff and cautious. I would have done the same thing, knowing that it was the wrong thing to do. I'm sure this has happened to her before.
We've all seen this, I'm sure -- although both sides should be searching for truth and justice (in our dreams!!), this back & forth becomes adversarial -- we are humans, after all. And not all of us are pure.... <sigh> Hesitation or being unsure hatches doubt, and that's all he's after.
She should have been a bit more careful at times during the investigation because, right or wrong, it WAS Michael Jackson and everything about it was sure to be put under a microscope, but it is what it is. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 03:40 PM
No offense to this witness...but I bet her spouse is hard pressed to win any fights in the house LOL. I like her she ogts the snark I respect the snark ;) I dont think she was as good as she could have been at the scene espclly with the circumstance's of this case.
Considering the case was not yet determined to be a homicide, she probably did a good job.
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 03:41 PM
Someone mentioned maybe the saline bag was cut to use for disposal. That defies logic. Given all the other bags Murray had in the room, a simple trash bag would do, and I believe there was a grocery bag there already.
So, logic says why would you cut a saline bag in the first place? Next the bottle found it, don't know if the jury will now find doubt in that or not, but logic goes with putting bottle in for giving the propofol to patient with minimal effort on Murray's part. Just makes sense to me, but we will see what is said by defense.
And, a Saline bag is not easily cut. May have used a blade to slash it open.
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 03:42 PM
But without and actual photo of it all just words just words.
By the time Ms. Fleak was on the scene, the propofol bottle may well have fallen out of the saline bag. It could have done so when Alvarez hid it per Dr. Murray's instructions, unbeknownst to Alvarez the significance of this.
Edited to add: The glass that the propofol bottle is made of is fairly thick and give a good amount of weight to an empty bottle, so that it would fall out of the bag if tilted the wrong way.
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 03:53 PM
I saw 2.6 ug/ml (ug=micrograms) but I have no clue what it means
It was listed after Propofal
1 microgram is = 1/1000 milligram and there are 1000 milligrams in a gram.
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 04:04 PM
Jean C. said the bottle with CM's fingerprint is the one that was in the iv bag!!
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 04:08 PM
Jean C. said the bottle with CM's fingerprint is the one that was in the iv bag!!
That is freakin awesome. BTW, was the propofol bottle still in the saline bag when it was received by authorities, or had it been displaced already?
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 04:10 PM
OMG, now the juice bottle not tested! Do they really think anyone could have easily removed the seals and metal wraps around the top of propofol bottles to pour propofol into the juice bottle. Get real!
Jinkasaurus, Alvarez said he saw milky substance in the bottom of the bag that contained the propofol bottle. Maybe what he saw was a milky substance in the propofol bottle that was in the bottom of the bag. Mr. Alvarez wouldn't have a clue what any of this meant.
Edited to add: Had I been the one to discover the propofol bottle in the saline bag, I would have let Murray know how deep the s..t was that he was standing in and I would have snapped a pic with my cell phone! But then again, as an RN, I would know the implications.
Devon
10-06-2011, 04:11 PM
I won't understand it but I hope the toxicology report gets put online,
The toxicology report is already online - it's included in the autopsy report:
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/02/09/mj_autopsy.pdf
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 04:12 PM
That is freakin awesome. BTW, was the propofol bottle still in the saline bag when it was received by authorities, or had it been displaced already?
I think displaced. So far it has only been AA and EF who have stated that it was in the saline bag. I really hope they have more witnesses. Too bad it wasn't photographed. :(
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 04:35 PM
fermeral blood did have propopfal, lidocaine, and something else that starts with an L
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 04:36 PM
femeral blood is from the leg vein.
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 04:37 PM
vitrious humor is fluid from behind the eyeball.
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 04:39 PM
They did collect the urine from the scene. and also from the bladder at the atopsy.
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 04:40 PM
The other drug was Lorazepam?
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 04:44 PM
Lidocane for not burning with the Propofal injection
Lorzapama.....xanax valium type drug
Right?????
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 04:47 PM
Okay, he's lost me. I need it broken down in lay man's terms. Hope they will do that after reading the report.
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 05:11 PM
ok those words have way to many letters in them for me.......Marajuana methaphedamines I get I geuss the Meth surprises me as as many sedatives as he was on he had to be given uppers to be back the next day.......
How long to do metha drugs stay in your system????
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 05:13 PM
Have to laugh Dipstick Pass's I thought I just saw it wrong but they just said it Uhhhh what exactly is a dipstick Pass???
And no Pain killer you know the oxy family wasnt present at the party color me Suuuuuprised. Again how long are those drugs in a system????
So we were a sedateor not a opidate abuser, wasnt Dr Kliene giving him injections of opidate's forgot which one...
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 05:14 PM
I have no idea what most of the drugs are, but goodness that was way too much. IMO
21merc7
10-06-2011, 05:20 PM
ok, propofol was found in everything.
lidocaine in everything but eye fluid b/c they did not measure in it.
Is ephedrine a methamphetamine? I know it is an upper.
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 05:21 PM
That doesn't sound like much propofal in his stomach.
21merc7
10-06-2011, 05:22 PM
Diazapam found in heart, hospital blood, that is all they checked.
Nordiazapam found in heart, all they checked.
21merc7
10-06-2011, 05:22 PM
I just lost them, would have to look at this on the autopsy report. Honestly I have no idea what the numbers mean, but think they will explain. Propofol in everything is bad, I think.
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 05:24 PM
LOL, I only know anything that ends in "pam" is a seditive. DH was put on them to get used to his Bi-pap he had to wear to breathe.
ephedrine is for weight loss isn't it... off to google
21merc7
10-06-2011, 05:24 PM
No demerol found. Propofol and lidocaine in gastric contents (stomach), they are talking about visualizing it. Sugar pack is 1 gram or 1000 milligrams.
21merc7
10-06-2011, 05:25 PM
LOL, I only know anything that ends in "pam" is a seditive. DH was put on them to get used to his Bi-pap he had to wear to breathe.
ephedrine is for weight loss isn't it... off to google
Ah on the "pams", yep ephedrine is speed.
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 05:26 PM
ok, propofol was found in everything.
lidocaine in everything but eye fluid b/c they did not measure in it.
Is ephedrine a methamphetamine? I know it is an upper.
Thanks Merc I knew it their is just know way a person that sedates to the level that he was coud be up and at rehersals the next day well without a drooling bid and a walker in hand. Just couldnt figureout with one of the 14 letter words it was :seeya:
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 05:28 PM
now going on to medical evidence found at the home.
21merc7
10-06-2011, 05:29 PM
Medical items in evidence tested in this lab. A 10cc syringe with plunger. Had 0.19 grams of liquid left in it = 4 drops. Detected propofol and lidocaine.
21merc7
10-06-2011, 05:30 PM
Now they are talking about the bag, tubing, connector, syringe. Analyzed in the lab.
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 05:31 PM
Sheesh, no wonder he was so thin.
21merc7
10-06-2011, 05:34 PM
(Crap, I finally got home, have company coming. I wanted to see this part! My company better cut my hair as promised, lol. Don't worry, just straight across the back with kitchen scissors.)
Still identifying the tubing, saline bag, connector etc.... Come on, hurry up or I'll throw rotten 'maters at the computer!
21merc7
10-06-2011, 05:36 PM
Wow, prosecutor has a very detailed, organized and professional looking diagram of it all, considering the j-pad we have seen before!
Thundar
10-06-2011, 05:37 PM
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a113/JudeKay45/Conrad%20Murray%20Case/summaryofresults.jpg
Picture of the summary of drug results in autopsy report. I hope this is ok to put this here. If not someone let me know and I will remove it.
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 05:38 PM
Crap I have to go for an MRI and I have a little Clastrphobia issue so they usually give me a little sedative so I dont wig out in their room.......By damned the first words out of my mouth are going to be that isnt propofal.....hmmmm the looks I am sure I will get LOL. Be back for your guy's awesome comentary soon.
21merc7
10-06-2011, 05:38 PM
Propofol and lidocaine in 10 cc syringe.
Propofol, lidocaine and flumazenil found in tubing, bag, etc... (I had to check the screen for the flumazenil spelling, no idea what it is.)
5stars
10-06-2011, 05:39 PM
I would like to see hair samples of M.J.to see how long he has taken those drugs.
MsBashterd
10-06-2011, 05:39 PM
Wow, prosecutor has a very detailed, organized and professional looking diagram of it all, considering the j-pad we have seen before!
Obviously he didnt graduate from the Baez school of poster board drawing :truce:......wow the differnec in the to trials from both sides is amazing.
21merc7
10-06-2011, 05:41 PM
Obviously he didnt graduate from the Baez school of poster board drawing :truce:......wow the differnec in the to trials from both sides is amazing.
This is how trials normally go. That other one was a circus side show. Lol!
Midafternoon break.
Thundar
10-06-2011, 05:41 PM
I would like to see hair samples of M.J.to see how long he has taken those drugs.
The last page of the online autopsy report states that hair samples were taken at the funeral home by the family's request. LaToya and a male were present, but no results are in the report.
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 05:42 PM
This will be an interesting cross tomorrow. I don't think they will have time for it today if he is going to go over all that was found in the house.
21merc7
10-06-2011, 05:43 PM
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a113/JudeKay45/Conrad%20Murray%20Case/summaryofresults.jpg
Picture of the summary of drug results in autopsy report. I hope this is ok to put this here. If not someone let me know and I will remove it.
Thank you for posting this! It should stay, it is in evidence now.
The little ---- means they did not check where you see those, it was I think I was understanding. ETA: I understood wrong, see Thundar's post below.
21merc7
10-06-2011, 05:44 PM
Flumazenil:
http://www.medicinenet.com/flumazenil-injection/article.htm
ETA: There are 3 pages to the article, but it looks like that should have never been in the tubing with the propofol and lidocaine!!!
borndem
10-06-2011, 05:44 PM
That really perplexed me too, and I've been an RN for 26 years. The propofol bottle did not have a loop for hanging, so Murray cut open the saline bag, drained out the saline, put the propofol bottle in the bag and spiked the bottle through the saline port, or through the rubber stopper of the bottle itself. I know that the bottle is not vented, so am wanting to see the IV tubing again to see if there is a vent port on the tubing near or at the top of the drip chamber. This allowed Dr. Murray to deliver propofol via gravity flow! Imagine that! He gets an "A" for creativity!
Thanks, thanks, Nurse Isabelle -- You get an "A" for solving this Rube Goldberg-looking mystery for us. Yes, clever, I'll admit.
Okay....I understand it now!http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif
Thundar
10-06-2011, 05:45 PM
Thank you for posting this! It should stay, it is in evidence now.
The little ---- means they did not check where you see those, it was I think I was understanding.
The witness said it was easier to just put what they found in the summary instead of all the drugs tested for. The ------ means none found or too little to show in that area.
Thundar
10-06-2011, 05:53 PM
Flumazenil:
http://www.medicinenet.com/flumazenil-injection/article.htm
ETA: There are 3 pages to the article, but it looks like that should have never been in the tubing with the propofol and lidocaine!!!
Yah, no should not have been in there if this is true, "This medication reverses the sedative effects of certain medications. It is used to counteract effects of certain anesthetics. It may also be used in the treatment of drug overdose." Kind of defeats the purpose of the propofol.
peace9274
10-06-2011, 05:57 PM
Are they through for the day?
Thundar
10-06-2011, 05:58 PM
Are they through for the day?
I don't think so, just afternoon break.
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 06:00 PM
Yah, no should not have been in there if this is true, "This medication reverses the sedative effects of certain medications. It is used to counteract effects of certain anesthetics. It may also be used in the treatment of drug overdose." Kind of defeats the purpose of the propofol.
I wonder if when he found MJ he tried to revive him with that drug. Or am I misunderstanding this?
Thundar
10-06-2011, 06:03 PM
I wonder if when he found MJ he tried to revive him with that drug. Or am I misunderstanding this?
I almost replied back to you that perhaps it was used by the EMTs but then realized no it was in the tubing that was there in the room, not in something that the EMTS used. I don't have any ideas why it would be there.
tambo
10-06-2011, 06:05 PM
ok, propofol was found in everything.
lidocaine in everything but eye fluid b/c they did not measure in it.
Is ephedrine a methamphetamine? I know it is an upper.
ephedrine is found in alot of cold med's over the couner...it's not an illegal drug.
it is in most sinus meds too....
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 06:06 PM
Flanagan up on cross. Grouchy as usual imo (sorry for the snark)
Thundar
10-06-2011, 06:07 PM
Flanagan up on cross. Grouchy as usual imo (sorry for the snark)
Thank you CNN doesn't come back on unless you refresh and I was missing this.
Now I gotta go. Please keep me updated for later.
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 06:12 PM
argh, wouldn't the blood taken in the hospital have been preserved somehow, and the blood taken at autopsy be more degraded? I hope you know what I mean.
Devon
10-06-2011, 06:18 PM
Flumazenil:
http://www.medicinenet.com/flumazenil-injection/article.htm
ETA: There are 3 pages to the article, but it looks like that should have never been in the tubing with the propofol and lidocaine!!!
I think Murray probably tried injecting MJ with this when he finally bothered to look at his patient and saw that he was not breathing! I suspect he made a few desperate attempts to bring him back before even alerting the staff. It would explain the time delay before he ran down to the kitchen and told the chef to get help, and it would also explain why there was medical equipment (ambu bag/catheter/empty Flumazenil bottle etc) strewn all over the floor.
He was in a blind panic IMO, but he knew then that it was too late and that's when he went into his "Oh, it only just happened right in front of me, and I can feel a pulse" mode!
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 06:21 PM
Didn't Murray take something with a stimulant in it that was put together for him by Allied Pharmacy? Did it not contain ephedrine?
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 06:24 PM
Didn't Murray take something with a stimulant in it that was put together for him by Allied Pharmacy? Did it not contain ephedrine?
Oh, you might be right. He sure did make the pharmacist look up a bunch of information for "uppers".
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 06:26 PM
Thanks, thanks, Nurse Isabelle -- You get an "A" for solving this Rube Goldberg-looking mystery for us. Yes, clever, I'll admit.
Okay....I understand it now!http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif
Thanks, but a nurse anesthetist also presented this theory at Sprocket's site some time ago.
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 06:31 PM
I think Murray probably tried injecting MJ with this when he finally bothered to look at his patient and saw that he was not breathing! I suspect he made a few desperate attempts to bring him back before even alerting the staff. It would explain the time delay before he ran down to the kitchen and told the chef to get help, and it would also explain why there was medical equipment (ambu bag/catheter/empty Flumazenil bottle etc) strewn all over the floor.
He was in a blind panic IMO, but he knew then that it was too late and that's when he went into his "Oh, it only just happened right in front of me, and I can feel a pulse" mode!
And, if Dr. Murray had that drug available, which is a reversal agent, then he was fully aware of the danger of his actions!
weedemout
10-06-2011, 06:33 PM
wow, this judge.
Soulmagent
10-06-2011, 06:34 PM
And, if Dr. Murray had that drug available, which is a reversal agent, then he was fully aware of the danger of his actions!
I never thought anyone questioned that he wasnt aware of the dangers. I thought we were completely floored at his choice to ignore them...
Least me anyway. I just started watching for today I had "chores" ugh.
weedemout
10-06-2011, 06:37 PM
I don't like it when they make the witnesses say only "yes" or "no." I think you can get it wrong For example, if a woman is asked if she ever had an affair and if she is forced to say "yes" but is not allowed to elaborate, there could be many situations. It's one thing if she had this "affair" while happily married or had this "affair" while simply not divorcing her husband and staying together for 12 years for the kids and one adult is living in the front house and the other is living in the back house and they have an agreement.
Big difference if the whole story does not come out.
Soulmagent
10-06-2011, 06:43 PM
This witness seems snippy and over the Defence's issues.
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 06:46 PM
The witness is blowing the DT theory that Michael ate the lorazepam or drank the propofol, hehe!
Soulmagent
10-06-2011, 06:47 PM
But the higher number was in his stomach right? Isnt that what they said? Not the lower one.
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 06:53 PM
The witness is correct. Urine level to determine blood level and vice versa can't be worked backwards. It would be apples to oranges since there are too many variables.
Flanagan should study pharmacokinetics before trying to outsmart a toxicologist. Defending one propofol case in his life just won't make him the expert he thinks he is.
Soulmagent
10-06-2011, 06:54 PM
BOMBSHELL
Urine reflects past drug use!
I always wanted to say that.
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 06:57 PM
Equilibrium is the wrong word Flanagan. Renal clearance of drugs/metabolites can vary from individual to individual and can be affected by many factors, one as simple as hydration.
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 07:00 PM
Thanks Isabelle for explaining this!!!!
Talina
10-06-2011, 07:03 PM
What difference does it make what proportions of the drugs were that were tested positive in the syringe?
octobermoon
10-06-2011, 07:11 PM
I think its over for today. See ya'll later.
borndem
10-06-2011, 07:45 PM
About those notes.......
Some of you know, my elderly (and not in the best of health) parents live with us now.
There was our first time calling 911 for my Dad.
Sirens blaring we got a huge fire truck, a red rescue truck and an ambulance on the curb of our house within 3 minutes.
Four huge firemen in full gear entered the house first.
First question asked of me by the guy in full gear that got off the long, red fire truck was what had occurred all day to bring us to this situation.
I literally stumbled all over my words trying to remember best I could all that had transpired that day.
Three rescue guys came in and one of them asked about all medications Dad was taking.
Again, I was spitting on myself trying to get out the information, correctly and best as I could remember.
Then three ambulance guys came in (I live in a very small house and boy, was it packed by the time they all entered) and the first one at Dad's side asked the above 2 same questions.
I will never forget how I felt.....totally inept, completely helpless, not being able to whip out the meds/history information in a clear and concise form.
I remember thinking to myself that if anything happened to my Dad, it would be my fault cuz I was sure I had forgotten something.
That was almost six years ago and thankfully all turned out OK but ever since then I keep a pad and pen in the drawers of both my parents' nightstands.
With all the meds they take on a regular basis, add to that extra meds they need when something goes wrong, that's a lot for me to remember so now I document, document, document.
I keep my notes (they would look like chicken scratches in the sand to anyone else who tried to read them) 24 hours and then rip them up in little pieces and throw in the trash.
Because of my penmanship, there is no way those notes would be useful to anyone else but me.
There have been 6 other occasions since, where we've had to call 911 and those notes, for me, were priceless.
All this to say that I personally don't feel the destruction of forensic's notes is any big deal especially since the information was FIRST copied over to a formal form.
Maybe I missed something.
Very good & valuable post, Amity. Thanks.
Your remarks about your fumble-mouth (hope that's not too harsh!) when you were worried & scared and su-rrounded by the buzz-buzz-buzz of all those rescue folks was powerful and even got my BP up while I was reading your post. Talk about freak-freak! I never had to go through it, thank you, God. My mother had her meds list in a special place, bless her, but I never had to use it.
But having those up-to-date documents is a simple piece of advice, but how many of us who have older parents or a special-needs family member would pay money for such a list when their house is swarming with EMT's etc., etc., when the familiy member is in crisis?? Valuable information, Amity.
And I also agree with your remarks about your note-taking. I had good hand-writing once, but four years of college classroom note-taking took care of that. Plus everyone has his/her own codes or abbreviations that defy translation. Even I had trouble with mine just days after I had written them!
Thanks again, Sleuther! http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif
oceanblueeyes
10-06-2011, 07:56 PM
BOMBSHELL
Urine reflects past drug use!
I always wanted to say that.
I must have missed that Soul.
All I heard is he could have taken the ephedrine right then or up to 72 hours before. The ephedrine pills were ordered by Murray from Applied Pharmacy.
oceanblueeyes
10-06-2011, 08:03 PM
Very good & valuable post, Amity. Thanks.
Your remarks about your fumble-mouth (hope that's not too harsh!) when you were worried & scared and su-rrounded by the buzz-buzz-buzz of all those rescue folks was powerful and even got my BP up while I was reading your post. Talk about freak-freak! I never had to go through it, thank you, God. My mother had her meds list in a special place, bless her, but I never had to use it.
But having those up-to-date documents is a simple piece of advice, but how many of us who have older parents or a special-needs family member would pay money for such a list when their house is swarming with EMT's etc., etc., when the familiy member is in crisis?? Valuable information, Amity.
And I also agree with your remarks about your note-taking. I had good hand-writing once, but four years of college classroom note-taking took care of that. Plus everyone has his/her own codes or abbreviations that defy translation. Even I had trouble with mine just days after I had written them!
Thanks again, Sleuther! http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif
I have watched so many cases where the DT always makes a big deal out of that. It is just a diversionary tactic. Most all LE agencies I see in criminal trials write their hand notes and then bring them over into a concise neat form and throw away their notes.
Just like a secretary who may have taken shorthand at one time then once the letter is written she throws away her script. No biggy whatsoever.
oceanblueeyes
10-06-2011, 08:06 PM
The last page of the online autopsy report states that hair samples were taken at the funeral home by the family's request. LaToya and a male were present, but no results are in the report.
They may have done that because the family had a second autopsy done.
Or they may have just wanted to keep some of his hair.
IMO
legalmania
10-06-2011, 08:17 PM
They may have done that because the family had a second autopsy done.
Or they may have just wanted to keep some of his hair.
IMO
LaToya alleges MJ was murdered. I believe she was tweeting on day 2 that information was being withheld. We're just getting into the forensics so it will be interesting to see what comes out. I'm trying to figure out why Conrad would feel it necessary to tape MJ after drugging him?
oceanblueeyes
10-06-2011, 08:23 PM
I would like to see hair samples of M.J.to see how long he has taken those drugs.
I am not sure if Propofol would even show up in the hair because it dissipates so quickly. The only reason it stayed in his system this time is because Murray filled him with so much of it he died instantly with no time for it to leave the system quickly.
I was thinking we may have heard he was on other drugs besides the ones that Murray said he gave him but seems not. It seems that is all he was taking and we don't even know if MJ wanted the other drugs anyway since Murray is the one that said he decided on this drug cocktail that morning. Imo, I think all he wanted was the propofol like he had been given so that he would feel he had slept.
There sure were a lot of pills around him that he could have taken. It isn't really logical that a drug addict would just leave pills in bottles that were there for his taking anytime he wanted them and some of them had been there for awhile.
I know.....once an addict always an addict but I saw nothing today showing me he was an active drug addict at the time of his death. MJ had no forewarning that he was going to die that day so what he had in his system is all he had...Murray's drug concoction.
oceanblueeyes
10-06-2011, 08:30 PM
LaToya alleges MJ was murdered. I believe she was tweeting on day 2 that information was being withheld. We're just getting into the forensics so it will be interesting to see what comes out. I'm trying to figure out why Conrad would feel it necessary to tape MJ after drugging him?
Hi, legal!
I cant think of a reason why a doctor would pierce the confidentiality of his patient. It was certainly against the law in CA to do so and I will never ever believe MJ gave him permission to tape him in a very vulnerable state. So something really smells about that and it isn't a tuna boat passing by either.:floorlaugh:
Well I am not one who has ever been a conspiracy theorist but I have to admit from day one I have not been able to figure out why a doctor for 20 years could be so downright clueless and stupid. It wasnt just one thing he did.....it was everything he did that just makes no sense. I think this is why the medical community was stunned by his behavior.
IMO
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 08:30 PM
If Dr. Murray only gave 25 mg Propofol to MJ, he should be able to produce the propofol bottle with the remaining medication and that would be his proof, but he can't because he didn't do that. He gave the entire bottle via gravity flow and combined with the load of benzos, the total drug effect killed Michael Jackson.
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 08:32 PM
I hope the PT reads here. Actually it wouldn't bother me if the DT read here also.
panthera
10-06-2011, 08:34 PM
I must have missed that Soul.
All I heard is he could have taken the ephedrine right then or up to 72 hours before. The ephedrine pills were ordered by Murray from Applied Pharmacy.
Please help me out here since I am unable to watch most of the testimony. Are they saying MJ had ingested ephedrine? If so, that would over stimulate his heart, then the combination of drugs to "bring him down" definitely could have killed him.
MOO
oceanblueeyes
10-06-2011, 08:42 PM
Please help me out here since I am unable to watch most of the testimony. Are they saying MJ had ingested ephedrine? If so, that would over stimulate his heart, then the combination of drugs to "bring him down" definitely could have killed him.
MOO
Hi there my friend!
Ephedrine was found in his urine but only a trace amount. So little of it found they could not quantify it. None of it found anywhere else in his system though.
The tox expert said that he could have taken it up 72 hours before he died. They found no undissolved pills in his stomach. Only dark fluid.
Murray had ordered a ephedrine concoction. It wasnt full ephedrine. It had other ingredients too. I cant remember what they are now. Aspirin I think was one ingredient.
But it does show how carelessly Murray was with his patient's life. The energy boost would also make it harder for MJ to sleep at night.
This guy was just doing this willy nilly using MJ as a guinea pig while experimenting.
Appalling.
borndem
10-06-2011, 08:42 PM
I won't understand it but I hope the toxicology report gets put online,
The Tox Report is in the full Autopsy Report -- signed by our man Mr. Anderson himself. It's hard to read -- bad print -- but it's almost at the end of the report which is lengthy.
http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Celebs/jackson,%20michael_report.pdf
Isabelle
10-06-2011, 08:45 PM
Hi, legal!
I cant think of a reason why a doctor would pierce the confidentiality of his patient. It was certainly against the law in CA to do so and I will never ever believe MJ gave him permission to tape him in a very vulnerable state. So something really smells about that and it isn't a tuna boat passing by either.:floorlaugh:
Well I am not one who has ever been a conspiracy theorist but I have to admit from day one I have not been able to figure out why a doctor for 20 years could be so downright clueless and stupid. It wasnt just one thing he did.....it was everything he did that just makes no sense. I think this is why the medical community was stunned by his behavior.
IMO
Simply, arrogance and greed.
oceanblueeyes
10-06-2011, 08:46 PM
If Dr. Murray only gave 25 mg Propofol to MJ, he should be able to produce the propofol bottle with the remaining medication and that would be his proof, but he can't because he didn't do that. He gave the entire bottle via gravity flow and combined with the load of benzos, the total drug effect killed Michael Jackson.
:floorlaugh: Dont ya know Isa.....the DT is going to say that while MJ was on his walkabout he had time to use the propofol bottle and then hide it never to be seen again.
After all to the DT MJ is superhuman already and can do amazing things in two minutes top that would take normal folks an hour to do!:floorlaugh:
panthera
10-06-2011, 09:01 PM
Hi there my friend!
Ephedrine was found in his urine but only a trace amount. So little of it found they could not quantify it. None of it found anywhere else in his system though.
The tox expert said that he could have taken it up 72 hours before he died. They found no undissolved pills in his stomach. Only dark fluid.
Murray had ordered a ephedrine concoction. It wasnt full ephedrine. It had other ingredients too. I cant remember what they are now. Aspirin I think was one ingredient.
But it does show how carelessly Murray was with his patient's life. The energy boost would also make it harder for MJ to sleep at night.
This guy was just doing this willy nilly using MJ as a guinea pig while experimenting.
Appalling.
Hi Ocean and thank you for clarifying! :)
It is my understanding that straight ephedrine is highly regulated by the FDA and for years it has also been sold in combination with other ingredients in one pill. Perhaps that is what Murray had gotten especially if it was through a mail-order "pharmacy".
And yes, the energy boost would have made it even harder for MJ to sleep, therefore the need for higher dosages of sleeping aids, or in this case, the anesthetic. This is no way to practice medicine and never should have been administered by a licensed medical doctor.
MOO
borndem
10-06-2011, 09:19 PM
Jean C. said the bottle with CM's fingerprint is the one that was in the iv bag!!
Well, isn't that special??!!!
As I had posted earlier, he was putting a little doggy bag together to take home and burn or bury or throw in a dumpster on the way. The slitted IV bag with the Propofol vial in it didn't look too dayam good, did it, Conrad? Hard to explain. Verrrrrry unprofessional, I must say.
Yes, remember he was shouting orders to Alvarez to put this in the blue bag and that in the other (black?) bag. But he had to take the ambulance ride. Oops. So I guess he threw the really bad stuff in the closet with plans to come back & get it. Oh well, the best plans.....
O/T -- The "closet" looks like the suits and coats room in the Brooks Bothers store here in Raleigh -- but bigger. Mahogany everywhere. I have never.
(My son worked there a couple of summers while he was home from college -- I am not a frequent customer!!!)
oceanblueeyes
10-06-2011, 09:26 PM
Well, isn't that special??!!!
As I had posted earlier, he was putting a little doggy bag together to take home and burn or bury or throw in a dumpster on the way. The slitted IV bag with the Propofol vial in it didn't look too dayam good, did it, Conrad? Hard to explain. Verrrrrry unprofessional, I must say.
Yes, remember he was shouting orders to Alvarez to put this in the blue bag and that in the other (black?) bag. But he had to take the ambulance ride. Oops. So I guess he threw the really bad stuff in the closet with plans to come back & get it. Oh well, the best plans.....
O/T -- The "closet" looks like the suits and coats room in the Brooks Bothers store here in Raleigh -- but bigger. Mahogany everywhere. I have never.
(My son worked there a couple of summers while he was home from college -- I am not a frequent customer!!!)
A sidenote. I think Sean Connery use to live in the Holmby mansion.
IMO
legalmania
10-06-2011, 09:28 PM
Have the results from the urine that was in the condom cat been disclosed yet? I've been speed viewing the trial and may have missed it. It took a lot to knock MJ out. I thought it took a lot to knock me out. MJ definitely had me beat by mega mg.
Mygirlsadie
10-06-2011, 10:12 PM
Have the results from the urine that was in the condom cat been disclosed yet? I've been speed viewing the trial and may have missed it. It took a lot to knock MJ out. I thought it took a lot to knock me out. MJ definitely had me beat by mega mg.
I'm not sure it took alot to knock MJ out it just took alot to KEEP him out. I think from the time he got his first hit of propofol when he went to bed that night he never woke up again and the propofol and benzo's were free flowing all night long to keep him that way... p.s I don't have the answer to your original question about the urine..sorry!
Mygirlsadie
10-06-2011, 10:29 PM
And, a Saline bag is not easily cut. May have used a blade to slash it open.
On the night stand next to the bed you can see a huge kitchen knife/steak knife with a black handle.
borndem
10-06-2011, 11:06 PM
LOL, I only know anything that ends in "pam" is a seditive. DH was put on them to get used to his Bi-pap he had to wear to breathe.
ephedrine is for weight loss isn't it... off to google
Yes, ephedrine is for weight loss, appetite control (if MJ took much of this, it's no wonder he only weighed 136 pounds, bless him), and as a stimulant.
borndem
10-07-2011, 12:59 AM
Yah, no should not have been in there if this is true, "This medication reverses the sedative effects of certain medications. It is used to counteract effects of certain anesthetics. It may also be used in the treatment of drug overdose." Kind of defeats the purpose of the propofol.
Makes no sense to me, either, unless DrM was trying to bring him out of his sleep. He could have given him some near the time MJ was supposed to wake up. (This is a real shot in the dark, since I am, and never was, a chemistry guru.) Poor, poor MJ. What a jerk DrM is.
BTW, where did the good doctor go to undergrad and med school? Do his residencies? Anyone know? Sure would love so see his C.V.
borndem
10-07-2011, 01:21 AM
Here's an interesting read that shows a brief bio of DrM and also mentions the MJ relationship and death details....
Maybe not everyone had read it....
http://www.biography.com/people/dr-conrad-murray-481814
AuburnSchnauzer
10-07-2011, 01:33 AM
Saw just a few tidbits of case, but did the prosecution prove somehow in court how one of the drugs in MJ's system killed him before the other? How did all of these drugs interact?
Is it true that there was a needle found on the floor and the investigator picked it up with bare hand and moved it to take a pic? What was the ingredient of that needle? Or was it a drug vial or both?
Amity
10-07-2011, 03:05 AM
Makes no sense to me, either, unless DrM was trying to bring him out of his sleep. He could have given him some near the time MJ was supposed to wake up. (This is a real shot in the dark, since I am, and never was, a chemistry guru.) Poor, poor MJ. What a jerk DrM is.
BTW , where did the good doctor go to undergrad and med school? Do his residencies? Anyone know? Sure would love so see his C.V.
For the last 10 months my sister has spent time (a week here, a couple days there, up to three weeks at a time) on and off at Loma Linda Hospital.
I have spent enough time there now (during day and night shifts) that me and the nurses know each other on a first-name basis.
I've had lengthy conversations with some of the nurses who are around my age and are/were just as devastated over MJ's death as I was/am.
I have been told by several nurses that Murray spent time at Loma Linda University Hospital completing his residency.
Two things: .
1. Those nurses I've spoken with about Murray were Not impressed with him back then.
2. Seeing what I've seen on a 24 hours basis sometimes a couple days straight, in the oncology ward, I am not impressed with LL University Hospital.
Remember: IMOO
Thundar
10-07-2011, 09:37 AM
Saw just a few tidbits of case, but did the prosecution prove somehow in court how one of the drugs in MJ's system killed him before the other? How did all of these drugs interact?
Is it true that there was a needle found on the floor and the investigator picked it up with bare hand and moved it to take a pic? What was the ingredient of that needle? Or was it a drug vial or both?
Cause of death was propofol poisoning. Mode of death was homicide, because propofol is quick acting iv drug and no individual could give themselves enough for death alone. There is a summary in this thread of the drugs in MJs system at death. The interaction of the drugs apparently was death. The coroners investigator left a thumb print on a syringe. Didn't know how her thumbprint got there. She removed the propofol bottle from the saline bag before she took the picture of the two so there is no picture of the propofol bottle in the saline bag for evidence, just an investigator and a security guard that testified to seeing it that way. I am not sure what drugs were in the syringe with the thumb print.
21merc7
10-07-2011, 09:40 AM
http://ll-media.tmz.com/2011/10/05/1005-propofol-bottles-conrad1-murray.jpg
Pics from tmz.com of the meds found in the bedroom, don't know if this is all of them or not as I could not watch that part of trial.
oceanblueeyes
10-07-2011, 09:45 AM
One thing was loud and clear to me with yesterday's testimony. Something does not make sense.
The defense would have the jury believe that MJ was this rabid drug addict but frankly the evidence entered doesn't show that at all.
I think just like everything to do with MJ it was blown way out of proportion. A full blown addict will take everything and anything they can get their hands on especially if it is right there in their home for the taking. So him being a drug addict at the time is a bunch of baloney, imo. I don't think he even wanted the other drug cocktail that Murray decided to give him. He just only wanted the propofol so he could think he had slept, imo.
Bottle after bottle of drugs were found in abundance at the Holmby Mansion and so many of them had quite a few pills in the bottle. Some meds were over a year old or more. What addict leaves the drugs alone that they supposedly crave?:banghead:
Sometimes I think it gets lost that MJ was a 50 year old man who would have aches and pains and medical problems just like any person his age would. I imagine some of our medicine chests are also filled with drugs we may have needed for some kind of illness or sickness. But if MJ has it then of course it is spun the only reason for it is to feed the drug addiction. It seems some expect MJ to have been totally healthy without ever needing a real doctors care for certain medically necessary things.
Why would a saline bag have a slit (cut) in it if not to place something inside of it? That bottle has CMs fingerprint. That is the bottle of propofol CM gave him and is the homicide weapon.
So while the defense is all about getting the jurors distracted with insignificant things I certainly hope the real evidence is not getting lost in the smoke and mirrors of the defense.
IMO
Isabelle
10-07-2011, 09:50 AM
On the night stand next to the bed you can see a huge kitchen knife/steak knife with a black handle.
Wonder if it was picked up as evidence?
I haven't been able to determine whether the cut in the saline bag is a smooth or rough edged one.
21merc7
10-07-2011, 09:51 AM
ocean;
I agree there is no way the old meds would still be there if he was truly addicted at the time of death. Empty old bottles maybe, but not ones with anything remaining in them. Just known to many people with addictions, sad really.
Isabelle
10-07-2011, 09:56 AM
I would think a true addict would have taken all of the drugs that they thought would give them a 'high'. There would be no full or partially full bottles of pills in the home, unless they were hidden (hoarding). Whatever happened to MJ has Conrad Murray's name all over it.
oceanblueeyes
10-07-2011, 09:56 AM
ocean;
I agree there is no way the old meds would still be there if he was truly addicted at the time of death. Empty old bottles maybe, but not ones with anything remaining in them. Just known to many people with addictions, sad really.
Exactly. That is like putting booze in a home with an alcoholic.
And the famous words of JVM "An addict will drink shoe polish!............
Thundar
10-07-2011, 09:57 AM
In response to Oceanblueeyes. I believe even some of the talking heads on hln last night were surprised that the only drugs found in MJs system were from Murray. I didn't watch all the infotainment shows but caught bits and pieces.
MJ was also trying to perform like he always had and he was not 30 or 40 this time. That extra 10 years adds a lot of extra aches and pains. Some of the pills were from dental work, and such, like you mentioned we all probably have those laying around somewhere.
Isabelle
10-07-2011, 10:00 AM
I am going to believe that the propofol bottle that was in the saline bag was used for a gravity flow IV and that the tubing that was used for this was removed and/or flushed with saline before anyone besides Murray was on the scene. (Don't believe there was tubing connecting MJ to the bag when Alvarez arrived and that the IV Michael's leg was only hep locked (meaning closed via a 't-connector' which is the purpose of this device). Further, when the saline bag containing the propofol was removed and placed in the bag, the propofol bottle would have fallen out, since it was of a considerable weight (thick glass bottle). Murray, what a snake you are!
Isabelle
10-07-2011, 10:02 AM
Where is the propofol vial that is missing only 25 ml, Dr. Murray?
Thundar
10-07-2011, 10:14 AM
I am going to believe that the propofol bottle that was in the saline bag was used for a gravity flow IV and that the tubing that was used for this was removed and/or flushed with saline before anyone besides Murray was on the scene. (Don't believe there was tubing connecting MJ to the bag when Alvarez arrived and that the IV Michael's leg was only hep locked (meaning closed via a 't-connector' which is the purpose of this device). Further, when the saline bag containing the propofol was removed and placed in the bag, the propofol bottle would have fallen out, since it was of a considerable weight (thick glass bottle). Murray, what a snake you are!
The security guard Alverez testified that he saw Murray pull out an iv, but he also testified that he helped put MJ on the floor for CPR, so perhaps since the time line does not follow in line with the EMTs I wonder what the jury will believe? There seems to be confusion with the time line and questions about that propofol bottle and saline, I really wish we could see how the jury is reacting to the testimony. I know why they don't show the jury but it would be helpful to see them.
I also believe that is how the saline and propofol bottle was used but will the jury without pictures?
oceanblueeyes
10-07-2011, 10:36 AM
The security guard Alverez testified that he saw Murray pull out an iv, but he also testified that he helped put MJ on the floor for CPR, so perhaps since the time line does not follow in line with the EMTs I wonder what the jury will believe? There seems to be confusion with the time line and questions about that propofol bottle and saline, I really wish we could see how the jury is reacting to the testimony. I know why they don't show the jury but it would be helpful to see them.
I also believe that is how the saline and propofol bottle was used but will the jury without pictures?
I don't think that will mean anything to the jury. They will pull from their own experiences and will know when traumatic things are happening things can slow down and time sequences gets mixed up.
How long was AA on the phone to 911?
The EMTs did see Murray and AA getting MJ off the bed when they walked in.
I guess Murray may have felt he needed help from AA to get him on the floor and AA was talking to 911.
I imagine an expert will testify to how he believes the IV was rigged up.
The state will bring it to the attention that Fleak never has talked with AA ever. She takes photos of items separately but on the one with the propofol and saline bag she took together as one because those two items were seen conjoined together.
IMO
Velouria
10-07-2011, 10:39 AM
he's not that stupid...enough to leave a trail of notes behind.
CM is quite expert at the game of CYA. How else would he keep that many girlfriends at once?
Amity
10-07-2011, 11:22 AM
I think just like everything to do with MJ it was blown way out of proportion. A full blown addict will take everything and anything they can get their hands on especially if it is right there in their home for the taking. So him being a drug addict at the time is a bunch of baloney, imo. I don't think he even wanted the other drug cocktail that Murray decided to give him. IMO
Above post Respectfully snipped for space.
Ya know, OceanBlueEyes, there were a few years in my life that several docs and a few specialists were trying to find the correct cocktail of drugs that would work for me with the least amount of side effects.
Having had two ulcers and a couple other gastrointestinal diseases, there aren't many pain meds that I can take for long periods of time without causing me more problems than what the meds were supposed to ease.
Docs would write a script for 30 pills, I'd use a few until terrible side effects would start and I'd throw that bottle in a drawer....on to the next medication to give it a try.
When my parents moved in with us I had to compress everything....make more room, needed more storage.
In the process of cleaning out drawers and cupboards, I must have gathered at least 40 different bottles of script pain meds.
Added to those type of meds were meds for anxiety, meds to relax, meds to make stomach spasms relax (which makes your whole body relax) etc.
I started to put the bottles of meds in a mens shoe box and guess what.....they didn't all fit!
If someone would have had the need to look through my drawers and cupboards at that time, they would have come to the quick conclusion that I was a druggy.
With nothing else working for MJ's sleep, I can see where he would have been able to amass a huge amount of meds trying anything and everything to help him sleep. Those meds didn't work, thus, there were still pills in the bottles and his collection just kept growing as he tried a new drug.
I totally understand that.
lorann
10-07-2011, 11:32 AM
I have no medical background and have been fortunate to only take a few meds in my life. I was shocked yesterday at the amount of drugs present. That being said, because I have no knowledge of the drugs, I have to admit that I lost interest very quicky. And I know it has to be presented to get on the record etc. - but I wonder how many jurors were able to follow the dialog all afternoon?????
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