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View Full Version : MO - AMBER ALERT: Lisa Irwin, 10 months, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011 - #12


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SmoothOperator
10-10-2011, 01:03 AM
Can someone please confirm or deny about the neighbor witness that states it was her husband(neighbor's husband) that saw a male carrying a baby in only a diaper on a
Street that runs parallel to the Irwin's street.. He was immediately suspicious of this and the male with baby seemed to sense this as he supposedly then made his way up to a home as if to enter it, like it was his home.. The wife stated her husband at that time continued to drive on home..

What has become of this acct?

TIA!

yllek
10-10-2011, 01:03 AM
On the Judge Jeanine show last night, Debbie Bradley said she was sure she shut off all the lights, but wasn't sure she locked the door, IIRC.

That seemed weird to me. I lock the door, then shut off all the lights (gotta see the door and the lock, ya know).

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 01:04 AM
How did the perp know which bedroom the baby was in? All the doors were closed.
Someone in the neighborhood who had been in the house, perhaps; or someone known to the parents who also had been in the house - friends, relatives, etc. Or the "just got lucky" factor.

Irish_Eyes
10-10-2011, 01:05 AM
I wonder if in their night time routine, the husband is usually the one who locks the door. Maybe she is so accustomed to him doing it that it never even dawned on her that it wasn't locked???

captivagrl
10-10-2011, 01:06 AM
The policeman was able to get in through that window, so it's clearly possible.
Although of course when the policeman got in, the screen was not in it.

And they new the furniture layout on the inside prior to crawling through that window.

cluciano63
10-10-2011, 01:06 AM
I just can't see this as a teen or a drugged up person...no noise, apparently and no mess or fuss, i.e. too clean and quiet.

I am thinking someone who is escalating, i.e. has not done this serious of a crime before but has broken into, maybe, empty house and stolen items, that sort of thing. Or a peeping Tom who decided to take the little girl and the urge was overwhelming, which prevented him from being hesitant about the lights on, people home, etc...

I do wonder why, with the FBI involved for days now, they haven't issued a reward and sent out alerts nationwide in some way, add her to their website, etc...do they really have something that tells them this is NOT a kidnapping, other than suspicion? I do not believe LE is focusing on the family for lack of anything else to do. Perhaps the little experiments today were to rule out, officially, the idea of a person coming in a window, which may back up their theory if they also had no signs of unknown prints or DNA (I suppose they could have had quick turnaround on some results in a case of this nature-they had the DNA on Chelsea King's case almost within a day in CA).

There are just very few signs that the FBI or local LE is seeing this as a case where a child has been taken and could be anywhere in the USA or world, for that matter. They have the resources to issue BOLO's etc and don't seem to be doing so.

JMO

Hallow
10-10-2011, 01:06 AM
Wondering if the tag line for that promo was a little sensationalistic....I believe the race today where the flyers were being passed out is in Wyandotte County? I think that may be what they are referring to?


Yes, the raceway is in Wyondotte (pronounced winedot for anyone wondering).

Janeumayer
10-10-2011, 01:06 AM
If a verified local knows from a credible source they can say male or female yes. But we can't sleuth the person other than what is in the news.

In Da MIddle who's a local said that the teen is a he.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 01:06 AM
Can someone please confirm or deny about the neighbor witness that states it was her husband(neighbor's husband) that saw a male carrying a baby in only a diaper on a
Street that runs parallel to the Irwin's street.. He was immediately suspicious of this and the male with baby seemed to sense this as he supposedly then made his way up to a home as if to enter it, like it was his home.. The wife stated her husband at that time continued to drive on home..

What has become of this acct?

TIA!
KANSAS CITY, Mo. - A woman who lives in the area where police believe a 10-month-old child was abducted said her husband saw a man carrying a baby early Tuesday morning, but didn’t think anything of it.

A neighbor, who later asked NBC Action News that she not be named, said her husband was coming home around 12 a.m. Tuesday when he saw the man carrying a baby wearing only a diaper.

“He seen the guy act like he was going to go into a residence,” she said, “but then my husband drove off so we’re thinking that maybe he was just doing that so that my husband would leave.”
---
more here:
http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/crime/neighbor-says-husband-saw-man-carrying-baby-wearing-only-a-diaper

I have no idea what became of this account.

Dr.Fessel
10-10-2011, 01:07 AM
On the Judge Jeanine show last night, Debbie Bradley said she was sure she shut off all the lights, but wasn't sure she locked the door, IIRC.

That seemed weird to me. I lock the door, then shut off all the lights (gotta see the door and the lock, ya know).

TY, Ty. I have only watched one part of that.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 01:07 AM
Yes, the raceway is in Wyondotte (pronounced winedot for anyone wondering).
Thanks. Thought so. Johnson Co not exactly an auto-racing crowd.

grandmaj
10-10-2011, 01:08 AM
In Da MIddle who's a local said that the teen is a he.

Earlier today she clarified for us on 2 threads ago now, that what she said was she had quesitons about a teen that lived at the address. But that she never identified that the teen was one pictured being interviewed as the teen. :)

thepinkdragon
10-10-2011, 01:09 AM
Their headlines have been totally over hyped in many cases.

I got my BA in Mass Communications with a concentration in Journalism. By the end of my degree program, I was so disgusted by the media and their agendas and sensationalistic ways that I chose not to find a job as a journalist! I rarely watch the news now or even read the paper. It just makes me ill. I scan headlines and read the headers online, but only when I find out about something I deem important do I actually start reading the news. I have yet to read anything compelling in this case. They have nothing, so they draw people in by sensational promises of "leads" and new developments. It's irritating, but I suppose they feel they have to at least appear to be doing their best to find out anything new, regardless if it is anything worthwhile to keep their ratings up.

cluciano63
10-10-2011, 01:09 AM
more here:
http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/crime/neighbor-says-husband-saw-man-carrying-baby-wearing-only-a-diaper

I have no idea what became of this account.

Maybe the man did go into the house.

grandmaj
10-10-2011, 01:09 AM
Yes in this statement they also make it appear that the "lights blazing" was an issue.

http://www.ksdk.com/rss/article/280442/3/FBI-searches-Kansas-landfill-for-missing-baby

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 01:11 AM
Maybe the man did go into the house.
Could have.

HatesSociopaths
10-10-2011, 01:12 AM
Someone in the neighborhood who had been in the house, perhaps; or someone known to the parents who also had been in the house - friends, relatives, etc. Or the "just got lucky" factor.

How would this person who had been in the house also know that the father was out for the night?

As for a kidnapper getting lucky and selecting the right door to open to abduct this baby, the odds of that are so remote that I don't enter it into the equation of trying to pursue the truth in this case. MOO.

Hallow
10-10-2011, 01:13 AM
Thanks. Thought so. Johnson Co not exactly an auto-racing crowd.

Ha Ha! No it's not! Johnson county is more like Beverly Hills dropped into the middle of the midwest :)

dovebar
10-10-2011, 01:14 AM
Who carries a baby around at midnight in October, with the kid wearing only a diaper? If you're walking a baby to get them to sleep, you would have them bundled up. It's odd that police haven't commented on ruling this tip out.

The prior cases people have posted, like Riley Fox's, bring to mind the burglaries on the father's car. Someone is crawling through this neighborhood.

It also reminds me that Madeleine McCann's parents told the restaurant that they wanted a table with a view of the apartment because they were wanted to be able to check on the kids, who would be alone. NOW the police are focusing on restaurant personnel who would have known that, because the maitre 'd wrote it on the restaurant seating list. But years ago, they never followed that lead. I'm wondering who the mom told in the neighborhood, or in a nearby 7-11 or Walmart or other store, that her husband would start working nights. It would be easy enough for a perp to follow her home (she probably had the baby with her when she said it - maybe shopping for birthday things), and then wait a few nights.

cluciano63
10-10-2011, 01:14 AM
I don't buy the "got lucky" factor either. And I don't buy that a burglar chose this house, with lights on, to rob and then said, "oh a baby' think I'll take her too." Either someone went in for the baby specifically or no one went in at all, IMO.

yllek
10-10-2011, 01:15 AM
TorisMom:
Last night on the Judge Jeannine show, Debbi Bradley said the dog always barked at strangers, but she did not hear a dog barking the night/morning of abduction.

SmoothOperator (howdy!):
The wife of the neighbor who thought he saw a man with a baby in a diaper was interviewed. She said her husband dismissed it at the time because the man was approaching a house. But, in hindsight (after the reported abduction), they thought maybe the man was just acting like he was going into the house because he was spotted. Captain Young later reported that "it didn't pan out" and we haven't heard anything more about it.

HatesSociopaths
10-10-2011, 01:15 AM
I think it's only Jeremy Irwin who stated that all have been cleared. LE hasn't said so. Maybe LE told Jeremy that they had been as a tactic, or maybe not. But, til we hear it from LE, I'm not considering Mr. Irwin's contention that he has been cleared and "all of those we were worried about have been cleared, except the mother" as a fact.

How hard is it for LE to find out these ten people had an alibi? Why would Jeremy throw Debbie under the bus and say she is the only one not to be cleared (if it wasn't true)?

Hallow
10-10-2011, 01:16 AM
I can see why the sister would pass out the fliers at the raceway. It's near the Legends, which is a huge outdoor mall. There are so many people there, every day of the week. It would quickly spread this news to anyone who had been recently living under a rock and not heard of this case yet. I wouldn't necessarily chalk it up to sensationalism.

jjenny
10-10-2011, 01:19 AM
How hard is it for LE to find out these ten people had an alibi? Why would Jeremy throw Debbie under the bus and say she is the only one not to be cleared (if it wasn't true)?

How many people are going to have a good alibi in the middle of the night?

RANCH
10-10-2011, 01:20 AM
Yabut, not that many stores open at 3 am. Walmart is usually open, but then he would likely be seen as unusal carrying a baby around at that time.

I think cities should get rid of the red light cameras and put them on every street corner for surveillance.
I know that were I live peoples home video surveillance cameras have helped solve some important crimes. That may have helped in this case more than a tape from Walmart. Maybe there is some neighbors video that we don't know about yet?

SmoothOperator
10-10-2011, 01:21 AM
Kansas City police spokeswoman Stacey Graves said she could not confirm if police were following the possible sighting as a lead.
http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/crime/neighbor-says-husband-saw-man-carrying-baby-wearing-only-a-diaper_NWe-tAb

Thanks wfgodot for the info and the link.. Now why in the he!! Would LE neither confirm or deny that they were even following this acct as a lead.. Why not say of course we're following any and all leads.. But nope they don't.. Instead they repeatedly state, THEY HAVE NO LEADS!".. I don't get it!

This is someone not related to these parents who is stating they eye witnessed seeing a male at midnight, on the very night in question, during the time in question.. This IMO lends much credence to the mother's story IMO.. WTH?

Dr.Fessel
10-10-2011, 01:23 AM
How hard is it for LE to find out these ten people had an alibi? Why would Jeremy throw Debbie under the bus and say she is the only one not to be cleared (if it wasn't true)? That is what I am having such trouble with when it comes to these people. They are being brutally honest.

HatesSociopaths
10-10-2011, 01:24 AM
http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/crime/neighbor-says-husband-saw-man-carrying-baby-wearing-only-a-diaper_NWe-tAb

Thanks wfgodot for the info and the link.. Now why in the he!! Would LE neither confirm or deny that they were even following this acct as a lead.. Why not say of course we're following any and all leads.. But nope they don't.. Instead they repeatedly state, THEY HAVE NO LEADS!".. I don't get it!

This is someone not related to these parents who is stating they eye witnessed seeing a male at midnight, on the very night in question, during the time in question.. This IMO lends much credence to the mother's story IMO.. WTH?

You may find this video helpful. Captain Young talks about that lead. Basically it didn't go anywhere.

http://www.kctv5.com/video?clipId=6316770&autostart=true

twall
10-10-2011, 01:24 AM
Is there a floor-plan of the house available? I thought I may have seen one a few days ago but have no idea were to find it.

Yes, I have seen one but it is really generic but I can't seem to find it now. It doesn't show any bathrooms.

It showed the lr, kitchen and computer room or "spare living room"<that is what an ABC news report called the room. The room spans the width of the home and has a door leading to the back deck.

It showed the mbr behind the lr, Lisa's room in the middle and the boys room next to it. Property assessor lists 4 br. (one could be in lower level), 2.1 baths and 1378 upper level square footage. Nice picture of the back at assessor's site. Going by the back windows it looks like there is a bathroom between Lisa's br and the mbr or a mbath.

Search for 3620 N LISTER DR.

http://gisweb.claycogov.com/realEstate/realEstate.jsp

SmoothOperator
10-10-2011, 01:24 AM
Hiya yllek:) thanks for the further info of suspicious diapered baby at midnite.. So, Capt. Young has stated that it didn't pan out?? I'd certainly like to hear the explanation of why a man had a baby out at midnight in October in nothing but a diaper?? But that's just me..

Jaxson
10-10-2011, 01:27 AM
That is what I am having such trouble with when it comes to these people. They are being brutally honest.

Yes!, Like they are their own worst enemies

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 01:27 AM
How would this person who had been in the house also know that the father was out for the night?

As for a kidnapper getting lucky and selecting the right door to open to abduct this baby, the odds of that are so remote that I don't enter it into the equation of trying to pursue the truth in this case. MOO.
The luck part was a minor factor in the equation, which is why I put it last. As for the father out for the night, same answer: people in the neighborhood might certainly see him leave or know already he was starting a new job and working it that night. Ditto relatives. Tritto lucky perps.

Could have been random, could have been planned, could have been a bit of both. Certainly, odds suggest that someone in the house will be involved, which is why I've referred to that factor many times over the last many threads. On a percentage basis, this one's wrapped up already. But sometimes long odds come into play, and percentages turn out to be not so indicative.

I don't know which will prove to be the case here.

SilkySifaka
10-10-2011, 01:29 AM
If a verified local knows from a credible source they can say male or female yes. But we can't sleuth the person other than what is in the news.

Thanks...I really want to know lol. I did read in the last thread he/she had been questioned again today and I wondered if they were checking to see if a person that size could get in thru the window.

I also am thinking that it could be someone who wanted to harm rather than take, either against the parents or just to see what killing is like. Be it this neighbor or another one. Innocence has a pull for some

SilkySifaka
10-10-2011, 01:31 AM
They were certainly making a show of it today, perhaps in case in a jury trial the defense suggests his or her client was focused on at the expense of other possible suspects. I think it was a CYA exercise in front of cameras, basically.

I think they had someone in mind as the possible perp and wanted to see if an officer the same size could get in easily.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 01:31 AM
Ha Ha! No it's not! Johnson county is more like Beverly Hills dropped into the middle of the midwest :)
LOLOL. Yes, I doubt many in Johnson County could be considered "a working class crowd." Snobs!

yllek
10-10-2011, 01:31 AM
How hard is it for LE to find out these ten people had an alibi? Why would Jeremy throw Debbie under the bus and say she is the only one not to be cleared (if it wasn't true)?

I'm not suggesting that at all. Just saying that Mr. Irwin made this statement early yesterday, and there's nothing from LE (who would be doing the clearing) to support it. Just today, Mr. Irwin's ex's family called him "ruthless" in how he got custody of his son and said they were surprised they hadn't been contacted by LE yet. I don't know if that statement is true either. I would sure hope the exes have been questioned already. Just being careful about the sources, maybe I'm too careful. When it comes to who's cleared and who's been questioned/investigated, LE is the only source I trust (and they won't usually comment!). :crazy:

Reference:
"The main problem I think that we're facing is that everybody (else) has an alibi," Irwin said. "I was at work. I've been cleared. All these other people we were worried about ... the FBI said they've been cleared. The only one you can't clear is the mother that's at home when it happens `cause there's nobody else there."http://www.startribune.com/nation/131319234.html

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 01:32 AM
I think they had someone in mind as the possible perp and wanted to see if an officer the same size could get in easily.
Could be. They made a big play of it, coming in with their lights a-flashing.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 01:33 AM
I don't buy the "got lucky" factor either. And I don't buy that a burglar chose this house, with lights on, to rob and then said, "oh a baby' think I'll take her too." Either someone went in for the baby specifically or no one went in at all, IMO.
Fine, eliminate that one. I don't think that was the case either. But it has to be listed in any list of possibilities.

Probabilities? Not so much.

jjenny
10-10-2011, 01:35 AM
I think they had someone in mind as the possible perp and wanted to see if an officer the same size could get in easily.

They don't even know that whoever got in (if anyone did) got in through the window, let alone the size of the perp.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 01:36 AM
http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/crime/neighbor-says-husband-saw-man-carrying-baby-wearing-only-a-diaper_NWe-tAb

Thanks wfgodot for the info and the link.. Now why in the he!! Would LE neither confirm or deny that they were even following this acct as a lead.. Why not say of course we're following any and all leads.. But nope they don't.. Instead they repeatedly state, THEY HAVE NO LEADS!".. I don't get it!

This is someone not related to these parents who is stating they eye witnessed seeing a male at midnight, on the very night in question, during the time in question.. This IMO lends much credence to the mother's story IMO.. WTH?
You're welcome!

SilkySifaka
10-10-2011, 01:38 AM
They don't even know that whoever got in (if anyone did) got in through the window, let alone the size of the perp.

I think the neighbor they questioned twice and took dna from is a distinct possibility they want to eliminate or rule in

HatesSociopaths
10-10-2011, 01:38 AM
The luck part was a minor factor in the equation, which is why I put it last. As for the father out for the night, same answer: people in the neighborhood might certainly see him leave or know already he was starting a new job and working it that night. Ditto relatives. Tritto lucky perps.

Could have been random, could have been planned, could have been a bit of both. Certainly, odds suggest that someone in the house will be involved, which is why I've referred to that factor many times over the last many threads. On a percentage basis, this one's wrapped up already. But sometimes long odds come into play, and percentages turn out to be not so indicative.

I don't know which will prove to be the case here.

I guess when I look at these unsolved cases I do it in a different way. I try to narrow the list of possible suspects as much as possible. If something doesn't make sense, like a random perp getting into the house but putting the screen back on the window, then selecting the right room that the baby is in, then taking three cell phones for no good reason, and just happening to be doing this on the perfect night when the father is gone, I RULE IT OUT. When I rule out something I shouldn't, it doesn't sit right in my thoughts and I end up putting it back as a possibility. In this case, it feels completely correct to rule out anyone who didn't have intimate knowledge of that house, where Lisa was, and the circumstances surrounding JI's work.

That narrows the list down quite a bit, and thankfully so. You see, if a detective doesn't do that, if he is a fence sitter, the case never gets solved.
Granted, we don't get all the information or see all the evidence, so it is harder to make decisions and solve the case. But that is why I am on this website, to try and solve the cases I post on. And I feel very comfortable narrowing the list of suspects to a dozen, and I also feel very comfortable that LE has indeed narrowed it down to this couple, even though it is based on JI's words. MOO.

cluciano63
10-10-2011, 01:39 AM
I'm not sure a teen could pull this off, and have the baby not be found, in a week's time. But who knows, teens do all sorts of things I never would have thought they would do.

dovebar
10-10-2011, 01:39 AM
If I were the parent, I'd want to hear a lot more from LE than "it didn't pan out" about a possible sighting of my daughter one block over around the time she probably disappeared.

To me, that's lazy cop work. It means, "we couldn't find a baby in the area so we dropped it."

Did any of the neighbors in the area go on a trip that day?
Were there any house where no one seemed to be home?
Did they do a full knock-and-talk to all the houses?
Did dogs sniff the area where the baby was seen?
Did neighbors in the area notice their outdoor motion detector lights go on?
How far was that house from the dumpster fire?
Did they put out a description of the man seen carrying the baby?
Was that description posted at the airport to all security personnel?

I'd have a lot of questions for my next 11-hour interrogation.

MsDetective
10-10-2011, 01:39 AM
Could be. They made a big play of it, coming in with their lights a-flashing.

Is there a link to The video of the reinactment? If so could someone share it please. TIA

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 01:42 AM
I guess when I look at these unsolved cases I do it in a different way. I try to narrow the list of possible suspects as much as possible. If something doesn't make sense, like a random perp getting into the house but putting the screen back on the window, then selecting the right room that the baby is in, then taking three cell phones for no good reason, and just happening to be doing this on the perfect night when the father is gone, I RULE IT OUT. When I rule out something I shouldn't, it doesn't sit right in my thoughts and I end up putting it back as a possibility. In this case, it feels completely correct to rule out anyone who didn't have intimate knowledge of that house, where Lisa was, and the circumstances surrounding JI's work.

That narrows the list down quite a bit, and thankfully so. You see, if a detective doesn't do that, if he is a fence sitter, the case never gets solved.
Granted, we don't get all the information or see all the evidence, so it is harder to make decisions and solve the case. But that is why I am on this website, to try and solve the cases I post on. And I feel very comfortable narrowing the list of suspects to a dozen, and I also feel very comfortable that LE has indeed narrowed it down to this couple, even though it is based on JI's words. MOO.
Quite true. I have the luxury of sitting here and making what I hope are informed choices. I'm not a detective, nor do I claim any special abilities.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 01:43 AM
Is there a link to The video of the reinactment? If so could someone share it please. TIA
Not sure, let me look. It's basically only an LE guy, crawling through a window after removing the screen, I think. I've seen still photos.

grandmaj
10-10-2011, 01:44 AM
http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_missouri/northland/detectives-back-at-irwin-home%2C-recreating-abduction


I think this is one of the links to the re-enactment

pdxmama
10-10-2011, 01:45 AM
My apologies if this has already been covered. If so, I would appreciate any links to posts or articles addressing it. I have really been trying to keep up but I don't recall seeing anything about them bringing in SAR or cadaver dogs. Is this correct or did I miss something? If they haven't brought in any dogs that seems really unusual. It seems like the last few cases I've followed it was the first thing that they did. Any thoughts on why they wouldn't have done this already?

yllek
10-10-2011, 01:47 AM
http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/crime/neighbor-says-husband-saw-man-carrying-baby-wearing-only-a-diaper_NWe-tAb

Thanks wfgodot for the info and the link.. Now why in the he!! Would LE neither confirm or deny that they were even following this acct as a lead.. Why not say of course we're following any and all leads.. But nope they don't.. Instead they repeatedly state, THEY HAVE NO LEADS!".. I don't get it!

This is someone not related to these parents who is stating they eye witnessed seeing a male at midnight, on the very night in question, during the time in question.. This IMO lends much credence to the mother's story IMO.. WTH?

HatesSociopaths supplied a lead where LE addresses the man in diaper lead upthread.

You are right that Captain Young has said LE has no "solid" leads, but they have also frequently announced that they are following up on all leads. As usual, most of the hundreds of leads they receive are not solid, imo.


Last night, from Cpt Young:
"The only thing I can say is we are following up all leads," he said. "If anything has anything to follow we are checking it out."
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/08/feds-scour-landfill-in-search-missing-missouri-baby/#ixzz1aM3rtV7P

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 01:47 AM
Is there a link to The video of the reinactment? If so could someone share it please. TIA
Here's one, which also is a good wrap of today's events. Going in the window is toward the last:

http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_missouri/northland/detectives-back-at-irwin-home%2C-recreating-abduction

ETA

Whoops, this is the same one grandmaj linked, I think! Here's another, this one from KMBC:

Police Simulate Break-In At Baby Lisa's Home (http://www.kmbc.com/video/29434699/detail.html)

gitana1
10-10-2011, 01:48 AM
SBM, yes the dad's son was there. He has custody but the rage thing is overstated. He gained custody by default, because the son's mother didn't pursue it. I not sure if the mother visits, from what I've read here, she's unavailable at this time. HTH's

I didn't know that. How do you know it's been overstated and the mom just failed to pursue custody? (I have missed a lot. Was out of town).

(snipped, numbered, and bolded by me)

1) I never saw the need to have my daughter in bed with me for just a simple cold. I keep her monitor on and check on her a bazillion times, but she's comfortable in her own bed, and I'd be worried she'd climb or fall out of my bed. That, and my husband snores something awful sometimes. If she was miserable I guess that would be different, but she's really never been sicker than a mild cold, knock on wood. On the other hand, when my son was six, sometimes he would wake up in the night and come crawl into my bed if he got scared or had a bad dream....sometimes I didn't even know he was there until I woke up in the morning.

2) Re: the bold above, I posted something similar earlier. It's the one thing about this case that I'm kind of hung up on.....

Yes, what you said makes sense. I probably seem nutty to many but I don't like babies sleeping alone in a room by themselves. I don't like little kids doing that either. What if someone breaks in or there's a fire?

As a side note, the practice of putting an infant in a bed by itself in another room stems from the late Victorian era, mostly in the United States, and was part of a then new regimen of child rearing including bottles rather than breast feeding, early potty training, letting an infant cry rather than immediately addressing it's needs and having a strict feeding schedule, rather than letting the baby eat when it wants to, etc.

Part of came from the American idea of independence. And having a baby in a nursery in a separate room, alone, is not the usual practice in most of the world. Having European parents, it is a foreign practice to me. Reading about all these abduction cases makes it even less appealing. But as I said, I'm a bit nutty!

thepinkdragon
10-10-2011, 01:49 AM
I can see why the sister would pass out the fliers at the raceway. It's near the Legends, which is a huge outdoor mall. There are so many people there, every day of the week. It would quickly spread this news to anyone who had been recently living under a rock and not heard of this case yet. I wouldn't necessarily chalk it up to sensationalism.

Oh I do agree it is newsworthy but the news station made it sound like there was a new lead. It had been reported hours earlier that the sister was at the raceway passing out fliers, so in this case they were misleading people to believe it was something that was a lead or a new development. That being said I haven't read the rest of this thread yet and I know I saw something on page 12 about a possible sighting, but I haven't got to that yet.

MsDetective
10-10-2011, 01:49 AM
http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_missouri/northland/detectives-back-at-irwin-home%2C-recreating-abduction


I think this is one of the links to the re-enactment

Yes it is TY

captivagrl
10-10-2011, 01:50 AM
This kidnapper was both lucky AND extremely professional? He or she left no evidence, that we know of, and had detailed intimate knowledge of this family's home, schedules, etc. And, was brazen enough to enter the front of the well lit home and snatch a child so quietly that Mom, two brothers, and a dog heard nothing even with a baby monitor on? It's almost impossible to believe IMO.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 01:53 AM
This kidnapper was both lucky AND extremely professional? He or she left no evidence, that we know of, and had detailed intimate knowledge of this family's home, schedules, etc. And, was brazen enough to enter the front of the well lit home and snatch a child so quietly that Mom, two brothers, and a dog heard nothing even with a baby monitor on? It's almost impossible to believe IMO.
Tough to believe, it's true.

dovebar
10-10-2011, 01:55 AM
Sadly, as with the other cases posted today, it's possible.

katydid23
10-10-2011, 01:55 AM
You may find this video helpful. Captain Young talks about that lead. Basically it didn't go anywhere.

http://www.kctv5.com/video?clipId=6316770&autostart=true

But what do they mean when they say it " didn't go anywhere?"

In other words, did they find out WHO the man was that was walking around in the middle of the night with a baby that had only a diaper on?

It seems to me that they could go the the house in question, where the man supposedly was about to enter, and ask if there is a baby living there.

If nobody on that street has a little baby that was out on the street at midnight that evening THEN they need to follow up on WHO that might have been.

This is the one thing that makes me believe the parents might be innocent.

IF the perp was truly walking down the street with the baby only in her diaper that night, then he may be a CRAZY man. And that would make more sense of the crazy scene he left behind.

jjenny
10-10-2011, 01:57 AM
But what do they mean when they say it " didn't go anywhere?"

In other words, did they find out WHO the man was that was walking around in the middle of the night with a baby that had only a diaper on?

It seems to me that they could go the the house in question, where the man supposedly was about to enter, and ask if there is a baby living there.

If nobody on that street has a little baby that was out on the street at midnight that evening THEN they need to follow up on WHO that might have been.

This is the one thing that makes me believe the parents might be innocent.

IF the perp was truly walking down the street with the baby only in her diaper that night, then he may be a CRAZY man. And that would make more sense of the crazy scene he left behind.

Maybe the story itself was not credible?

katydid23
10-10-2011, 01:58 AM
This kidnapper was both lucky AND extremely professional? He or she left no evidence, that we know of, and had detailed intimate knowledge of this family's home, schedules, etc. And, was brazen enough to enter the front of the well lit home and snatch a child so quietly that Mom, two brothers, and a dog heard nothing even with a baby monitor on? It's almost impossible to believe IMO.

But it does happen that way sometimes. The Van Dam case is one example.

And that Couley freak was also able to do it. And someone posted the Riley Fox devastating case upthread earlier. It does happen sometimes. Sadly.

yllek
10-10-2011, 01:58 AM
I guess when I look at these unsolved And I feel very comfortable narrowing the list of suspects to a dozen, and I also feel very comfortable that LE has indeed narrowed it down to this couple, even though it is based on JI's words. MOO.

Respectfully snipped for space.

My problem with Mr. Irwin's statement being taken as fact in this matter (other than LE can tell him anything they want and it doesn't have to be true), is that he says he has been cleared too. He doesn't say LE has narrowed suspects down to himself and his fiancee ("the couple"), he says only his fiancee can't be cleared. He also stated on Friday that he hadn't been requested to take an LDT. He then said he would take one "if that's what was necessary". LE may well have told him he didn't need to take an LDT last week. If so, it could be a strategy to work the couple, rather than because they are certain he has no knowledge. I'd be surprised if LE didn't feel he needed to be tested at all. JMO...

katydid23
10-10-2011, 01:58 AM
Maybe the story itself was not credible?

The detective said publicly that he found the witness to be credible.

RANCH
10-10-2011, 02:01 AM
I guess when I look at these unsolved cases I do it in a different way. I try to narrow the list of possible suspects as much as possible. If something doesn't make sense, like a random perp getting into the house but putting the screen back on the window, then selecting the right room that the baby is in, then taking three cell phones for no good reason, and just happening to be doing this on the perfect night when the father is gone, I RULE IT OUT. When I rule out something I shouldn't, it doesn't sit right in my thoughts and I end up putting it back as a possibility. In this case, it feels completely correct to rule out anyone who didn't have intimate knowledge of that house, where Lisa was, and the circumstances surrounding JI's work.

That narrows the list down quite a bit, and thankfully so. You see, if a detective doesn't do that, if he is a fence sitter, the case never gets solved.
Granted, we don't get all the information or see all the evidence, so it is harder to make decisions and solve the case. But that is why I am on this website, to try and solve the cases I post on. And I feel very comfortable narrowing the list of suspects to a dozen, and I also feel very comfortable that LE has indeed narrowed it down to this couple, even though it is based on JI's words. MOO.

I'll be totally honest and say that I'm not on this website to solve cases. I'm just not that smart. I do love the different people and their ideas who post here. As for LE narrowing their suspects down to Debbie and Jeremy I'm not so sure. With the small amount of evidence that we have so far, I can't preclude a stranger abduction at this point. MOO.

katydid23
10-10-2011, 02:04 AM
If I were the parent, I'd want to hear a lot more from LE than "it didn't pan out" about a possible sighting of my daughter one block over around the time she probably disappeared.

To me, that's lazy cop work. It means, "we couldn't find a baby in the area so we dropped it."

Did any of the neighbors in the area go on a trip that day?
Were there any house where no one seemed to be home?
Did they do a full knock-and-talk to all the houses?
Did dogs sniff the area where the baby was seen?
Did neighbors in the area notice their outdoor motion detector lights go on?
How far was that house from the dumpster fire?
Did they put out a description of the man seen carrying the baby?
Was that description posted at the airport to all security personnel?

I'd have a lot of questions for my next 11-hour interrogation.

THANK YOU. My feelings precisely. The detective said that the witness seemed to be credible. So she is a normal, intelligent and honest woman in the neighborhood. She did not make the story up. SO WHAT THE HECK? Who was the guy?

I find it hard to believe a neighborhood father was taking an infant out for a stroll in only a diaper at 2 am in October. He would have him more bundled up if in fact he needed a walk to help him sleep. My teething kids needed a drive in the middle of the night but they had more than just their diapers on at the time.

HatesSociopaths
10-10-2011, 02:06 AM
I'll be totally honest and say that I'm not on this website to solve cases. I'm just not that smart. I do love the different people and their ideas who post here. As for LE narrowing their suspects down to Debbie and Jeremy I'm not so sure. With the small amount of evidence that we have so far, I can't preclude a stranger abduction at this point. MOO.

Your posts add to the collective intelligence on this board that help me hone my theories down. That is what I love about this website. It is full of brilliant people with backgrounds in every profession. The mods keep it clean and sharp. There is so much potential and it already is achieving great things.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 02:08 AM
I'll be totally honest and say that I'm not on this website to solve cases. I'm just not that smart. I do love the different people and their ideas who post here. As for LE narrowing their suspects down to Debbie and Jeremy I'm not so sure. With the small amount of evidence that we have so far, I can't preclude a stranger abduction at this point. MOO.
Well-said and me, too. Sometimes I can develop a little bit of a logical line in terms of what might have happened, but I'm not outstanding at it. I think I can evaluate information and sources pretty well, but can't make any grand claims. And exactly, what you said: "I do love the different people and their ideas who post here." Yes! It's fun to be around good people and be part of what could be considered a team, with everyone working toward a single goal. It is fun to be on the side of the angels.

RANCH
10-10-2011, 02:09 AM
This kidnapper was both lucky AND extremely professional? He or she left no evidence, that we know of, and had detailed intimate knowledge of this family's home, schedules, etc. And, was brazen enough to enter the front of the well lit home and snatch a child so quietly that Mom, two brothers, and a dog heard nothing even with a baby monitor on? It's almost impossible to believe IMO.
I can understand how you feel. In fact the stranger abduction case that I remember the most is Polly Klass. I just looked that case up again to refresh my memory. Her mom, Eve Nichol slept thru the whole thing. It does happen.

redfish
10-10-2011, 02:10 AM
Maybe the story itself was not credible?

Or it could have been credible and LE does not want to tell the public about it yet. There very well could have been some identifiying information - matching something/someone else they have uncovered.
I do not for a minute believe LE has nothing. They are following some viable information they have either gained from some witness, tip or just their own hard investigating. Today they were either proving a theory or blowing one out of the water! Then again, as some other posters have noted they could be baiting.

We have seen in other cases how important it is for them to walk carefully and quietly to make sure they have everything they need to prosecute, before they tip the perps. and their defending attorneys.

I am just sick so much time has passed without finding Lisa. I hope she is sleeping peacefully in someone's loving arms tonight and will be coming home tomorrow.

grandmaj
10-10-2011, 02:11 AM
I'll be totally honest and say that I'm not on this website to solve cases. I'm just not that smart. I do love the different people and their ideas who post here. As for LE narrowing their suspects down to Debbie and Jeremy I'm not so sure. With the small amount of evidence that we have so far, I can't preclude a stranger abduction at this point. MOO.

No I can't either. I am spinning in circles here. Some of the parents statements have me :waitasec: and yet I'm not one to jump to the parents as the first suspects generally.

I'm trying to find a way to make the abduction fit and I'm having a hard time. Unless there is something "huge" that has been with-held from us, or also with-held from LE. To me if it is an abduction it is a known person not random.

With that I must lay my tired brain down for the night.

xoxoxoxo

Snowbunny
10-10-2011, 02:14 AM
Its quite possible that LE is just down playing that lead publically, but behind the scenes they may be investigating that lead to the fullest. LE is not going to show you all their cards nor do they want to tip anyone off. Just a thought.

HatesSociopaths
10-10-2011, 02:22 AM
Respectfully snipped for space.

My problem with Mr. Irwin's statement being taken as fact in this matter (other than LE can tell him anything they want and it doesn't have to be true), is that he says he has been cleared too. He doesn't say LE has narrowed suspects down to himself and his fiancee ("the couple"), he says only his fiancee can't be cleared. He also stated on Friday that he hadn't been requested to take an LDT. He then said he would take one "if that's what was necessary". LE may well have told him he didn't need to take an LDT last week. If so, it could be a strategy to work the couple, rather than because they are certain he has no knowledge. I'd be surprised if LE didn't feel he needed to be tested at all. JMO...

I agree - I think he is involved so what LE told him appears to be part of a tactic to divide them. That said, I don't think they took their list of ten people and threw it in the trash can. Those people have been ruled out, IMO. I do agree there could be better confirmation of that. Hopefully a reporter asks this question to Captain Young tomorrow. :)

redfish
10-10-2011, 02:22 AM
I followed Somer's case in FL a while back ago and I am ashamed to admit how convinced I was that her mom had something to do with that. I didn't bash the poor woman like so many other posters did but you could not have swayed me from my opinion if anyone had tried. I try to remind myself of Somer often, and her mom.

That said, IMO nothing here is adding up. Can't wait for LE to fill me in on the facts.

katydid23
10-10-2011, 02:24 AM
Its quite possible that LE is just down playing that lead publically, but behind the scenes they may be investigating that lead to the fullest. LE is not going to show you all their cards nor do they want to tip anyone off. Just a thought.

I hope they are investigating it more fully. If in fact it was a valid sighting then I am pretty sure that was poor baby Lisa. What are the chances another baby was out in the streets in the middle of the night?

lauriej
10-10-2011, 02:25 AM
..now, who wrote this article??

..every single thing we heard about this on friday was that "the teenager" had the garage access CODE ...ONLY.

http://www.kmbc.com/news/29428139/detail.html

--snipped--

According to the report, investigators questioned and took DNA samples from a teenage neighbor whom they believe was in the Irwin home earlier in the day that Lisa disappeared. The teenager was also said to have known alarm access codes for the house.

..seriously---it's bothersome when reporters MIS-report.

---the code to get into the garage is one thing-----knowing the code to disarm someone's alarm system! is quite another...

thepinkdragon
10-10-2011, 02:25 AM
Redfish and Snowbunny I'm with you on this one. Based on today's reenactment by police and just sitting here thinking about that sighting the night of the incident makes me think that it was possibly someone local and that Baby Lisa may in fact even still be in the area. Who is to say that there was only one perp? Maybe the teen that has been in question ran with the wrong crowd and a person they hung out with spotted the baby and then for whatever reason devised a plan to take her with the teen's help. Maybe this had been planned for a while and breaking into JI's vehicle first was a test to see how aware they were of their surroundings. It's possible that based on those factors and knowing people close enough to the family that they did know that the father would be gone and enough of the family's nightly routine that they felt confident enough to go ahead with their plan. Just a thought.

Snowbunny
10-10-2011, 02:28 AM
The quickest way to catch a perp is to let them think they are not on your radar and that your focus is elsewhere hence the mother.

RANCH
10-10-2011, 02:29 AM
No I can't either. I am spinning in circles here. Some of the parents statements have me :waitasec: and yet I'm not one to jump to the parents as the first suspects generally.

I'm trying to find a way to make the abduction fit and I'm having a hard time. Unless there is something "huge" that has been with-held from us, or also with-held from LE. To me if it is an abduction it is a known person not random.

With that I must lay my tired brain down for the night.

xoxoxoxo

LE could have evidence that we have no knowledge of that shows Debbie and or Jeremy are complicit in the disappearance of baby Lisa.
I haven't seen any yet. The only thing so far that I've heard showing guilt is body language and statements that are suspect. I not sure you can go to court with just that. MOO.

cleo612
10-10-2011, 02:34 AM
The detective said publicly that he found the witness to be credible.

The detective found the witness "credible," but the "lead did not pan out?" How does that work?

They didn't find the man walking down the street several hours later, so therefore the "lead did not pan out?"

I never even saw a description of this man carrying a diapered baby.

How on earth could they possibly know if this lead would have panned out?

redfish
10-10-2011, 02:37 AM
..now, who wrote this article??

..every single thing we heard about this on friday was that "the teenager" had the garage access CODE ...ONLY.

http://www.kmbc.com/news/29428139/detail.html

--snipped--

According to the report, investigators questioned and took DNA samples from a teenage neighbor whom they believe was in the Irwin home earlier in the day that Lisa disappeared. The teenager was also said to have known alarm access codes for the house.

..seriously---it's bothersome when reporters MIS-report.

---the code to get into the garage is one thing-----knowing the code to disarm someone's alarm system! is quite another...

Very interesting article. The comments are kinda interesting too.

jjenny
10-10-2011, 02:38 AM
The quickest way to catch a perp is to let them think they are not on your radar and that your focus is elsewhere hence the mother.

How would that work, exactly?

jjenny
10-10-2011, 02:39 AM
..now, who wrote this article??

..every single thing we heard about this on friday was that "the teenager" had the garage access CODE ...ONLY.

http://www.kmbc.com/news/29428139/detail.html

--snipped--

According to the report, investigators questioned and took DNA samples from a teenage neighbor whom they believe was in the Irwin home earlier in the day that Lisa disappeared. The teenager was also said to have known alarm access codes for the house.

..seriously---it's bothersome when reporters MIS-report.

---the code to get into the garage is one thing-----knowing the code to disarm someone's alarm system! is quite another...

The mother didn't even remember if she had closed the door. Let alone set any alarm system.

JeannieC
10-10-2011, 02:39 AM
Lead didn't pan out sounds to me like they couldn't find the man. jmo

jjenny
10-10-2011, 02:42 AM
Lead didn't pan out sounds to me like they couldn't find the man. jmo

If they believed there really was a man with a baby, and they couldn't find him, where is at least the description, or a sketch?

RANCH
10-10-2011, 02:42 AM
Lead didn't pan out sounds to me like they couldn't find the man. jmo

What? I must have missed something.

katydid23
10-10-2011, 02:44 AM
Lead didn't pan out sounds to me like they couldn't find the man. jmo

And if they could not find the man, then he was not a neighborhood father of an infant. imoo If he was, he would have come forward already.

I think it may have been the perp. And maybe he burned the babies clothes in the dumpster first. And he probably had a close place to go from there.

HatesSociopaths
10-10-2011, 02:46 AM
You may find this video helpful. Captain Young talks about that lead. Basically it didn't go anywhere.

http://www.kctv5.com/video?clipId=6316770&autostart=true

One other thing about this video. A reporter says LE was seen rushing to get crime scene tape in that wooded area near their house...

Combine that with the argument with the couple and LE at that wooded area (see time line)...

Combine that with the report that 100 LE were seen searching that wooded area...

We just need a confession. Hope they get it!

DairyGirl
10-10-2011, 02:46 AM
..now, who wrote this article??

..every single thing we heard about this on friday was that "the teenager" had the garage access CODE ...ONLY.

http://www.kmbc.com/news/29428139/detail.html

--snipped--

According to the report, investigators questioned and took DNA samples from a teenage neighbor whom they believe was in the Irwin home earlier in the day that Lisa disappeared. The teenager was also said to have known alarm access codes for the house.

..seriously---it's bothersome when reporters MIS-report.

---the code to get into the garage is one thing-----knowing the code to disarm someone's alarm system! is quite another...

Was it even known if they had an alarm system? If they did was it own. How coincidental would that be, that a stranger picks the very first night the husband is working at night, the mother leaves the door unlocked and the alarm wasn't on?

JeannieC
10-10-2011, 02:47 AM
If they believed there really was a man with a baby, and they couldn't find him, where is at least the description, or a sketch?

I haven't heard an interview with the man but I believe the wife said he didn't pay much attention to the guy and I think the man was driving past him so he didn't get a good look. IIRC

jjenny
10-10-2011, 02:50 AM
I haven't heard an interview with the man but I believe the wife said he didn't pay much attention to the guy and I think the man was driving past him so he didn't get a good look. IIRC

Then how does he know the man was carrying a baby in diaper? Either he got a look or he didn't.

JeannieC
10-10-2011, 02:50 AM
And if they could not find the man, then he was not a neighborhood father of an infant. imoo If he was, he would have come forward already.

I think it may have been the perp. And maybe he burned the babies clothes in the dumpster first. And he probably had a close place to go from there.

That has crossed my mind too!

RANCH
10-10-2011, 02:50 AM
And if they could not find the man, then he was not a neighborhood father of an infant. imoo If he was, he would have come forward already.

I think it may have been the perp. And maybe he burned the babies clothes in the dumpster first. And he probably had a close place to go from there.
Now I think I get it. How did you figure it out from a one line post that had hardly any information? Amazing.

redfish
10-10-2011, 02:50 AM
I think there is a very good chance that the author of this article is kinda confused about the "key pad". (or maybe not) I can see why LE would keep the knowledge of an alarm system on the down-low. That would certainly eliminate suspects if that were true.

cleo612
10-10-2011, 02:53 AM
Why is no one searching near the creek and/or river? It is within easy walking distance to the home.

I do not understand the focus of this investigation, AT ALL.

It just feels, to me, as though someone is trying to fine tune a bad case of tunnel vision.

jjenny
10-10-2011, 02:53 AM
I think there is a very good chance that the author of this article is kinda confused about the "key pad". (or maybe not) I can see why LE would keep the knowledge of an alarm system on the down-low. That would certainly eliminate suspects if that were true.

What alarm system? If the mother doesn't even remember if she closed the door, I find it hard to believe there was an alarm system. They also had a window open, which rules out an alarm system. Clearly this is the case of reporter being confused.

Snowbunny
10-10-2011, 02:53 AM
When I was stationed in Alaska 25 years ago my mom joined me up there after my father died. My daughter was a little over a year old when my mom flew back home for some legal issues with my father's estate and she took my daughter with her. She told me how the stewardesses were very attentive to my daughter as she was getting on the plane and asked my daughter who this person was and of course my daughter said grandma so it doesn't surprise me any when I hear they are checking out a couple in CA.

thepinkdragon
10-10-2011, 02:54 AM
And if they could not find the man, then he was not a neighborhood father of an infant. imoo If he was, he would have come forward already.

I think it may have been the perp. And maybe he burned the babies clothes in the dumpster first. And he probably had a close place to go from there.

ITA if you read my last post on page #13 I think we may be on to something.

Jaxson
10-10-2011, 02:54 AM
Maybe the siting of the man with the baby was deemed credible by the police because they found him and didn't pan out because he has a baby who was fussing that night, maybe with a fever (cool night , diaper only)while teething...

RANCH
10-10-2011, 02:54 AM
I think there is a very good chance that the author of this article is kinda confused about the "key pad". (or maybe not) I can see why LE would keep the knowledge of an alarm system on the down-low. That would certainly eliminate suspects if that were true.

Here we go again. What article?

HatesSociopaths
10-10-2011, 02:56 AM
And if they could not find the man, then he was not a neighborhood father of an infant. imoo If he was, he would have come forward already.

I think it may have been the perp. And maybe he burned the babies clothes in the dumpster first. And he probably had a close place to go from there.

What good does it do him to burn the clothes in the dumpster? How did this man know where Lisa's room was, when all doors were closed? How did he know JI was at work? Why did he put the screen back on after climbing through the window? Why did the dogs not bark? Why did the baby not cry? Why did he take the phones?

cleo612
10-10-2011, 02:57 AM
ITA if you read my last post on page #13 I think we may be on to something.


And then read my post here: MO MO - AMBER ALERT: Lisa Irwin, 10 months, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011 - #8 - Page 25 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Darcyline
10-10-2011, 02:59 AM
Maybe the siting of the man with the baby was deemed credible by the police because they found him and didn't pan out because he has a baby who was fussing that night, maybe with a fever (cool night , diaper only)while teething...


That seemed like a logical conclusion to me-credible witness report, but they found an actual dad with a baby not Lisa when they looked into it. Do we have confirmation that that isn't what happened? That is how I took the "it didn't pan out" comment. Or perhaps I am giving LE too much credit?

cleo612
10-10-2011, 03:01 AM
What good does it do him to burn the clothes in the dumpster? How did this man know where Lisa's room was, when all doors were closed? Why did he put the screen back on after climbing through the window? Why did the dogs not bark? Why did the baby not cry? Why did he take the phones?

Burning the clothes in the dumpster is a quick way to get rid of them (read my post above with a link to one of my previous posts for reasons why). If the perp is someone that knows the family and knows the home, then he or she would know where Lisa's room is. The dogs wouldn't bark because the perp is known to them. The baby wouldn't cry because the perp is known to her. The phones were taken because they were there--maybe for money, maybe to delay a call to LE, maybe because the perp wanted a new cell phone.

thepinkdragon
10-10-2011, 03:01 AM
And then read my post here: MO MO - AMBER ALERT: Lisa Irwin, 10 months, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011 - #8 - Page 25 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7205081#post7205081)

I remember reading your post and yes I had that thought too. I think the teen is the key here one way or another.

Jaxson
10-10-2011, 03:02 AM
That seemed like a logical conclusion to me-credible witness report, but they found an actual dad with a baby not Lisa when they looked into it. Do we have confirmation that that isn't what happened? That is how I took the "it didn't pan out" comment. Or perhaps I am giving LE too much credit?


No I haven't seen confirmation. Just the siting was credible and the lead didn't pan out. Which makes sense if they found a dad. Otherwise they are holding back...well we know they are holding back but maybe not about this particular bit.

redfish
10-10-2011, 03:05 AM
Here we go again. What article?

The one above that several of us have been discussing!

..now, who wrote this article??

..every single thing we heard about this on friday was that "the teenager" had the garage access CODE ...ONLY.

http://www.kmbc.com/news/29428139/detail.html

--snipped--

According to the report, investigators questioned and took DNA samples from a teenage neighbor whom they believe was in the Irwin home earlier in the day that Lisa disappeared. The teenager was also said to have known alarm access codes for the house.

..seriously---it's bothersome when reporters MIS-report.

---the code to get into the garage is one thing-----knowing the code to disarm someone's alarm system! is quite another...
__________________
my opinion...........and i happen to agree with it.....

thepinkdragon
10-10-2011, 03:06 AM
No I haven't seen confirmation. Just the siting was credible and the lead didn't pan out. Which makes sense if they found a dad. Otherwise they are holding back...well we know they are holding back but maybe not about this particular bit.

IMOO I would think that if indeed there was a neighborhood father out with their baby that night that LE would be sure to say it was checked out and deemed not related to the case. Not "it didn't pan out". Those words are very inconclusive to me, as if either they are withholding info or never looked into it that much aside from questioning residents in the sighted area because they didn't have an accurate description of the male.

HatesSociopaths
10-10-2011, 03:12 AM
Burning the clothes in the dumpster is a quick way to get rid of them (read my post above with a link to one of my previous posts for reasons why). If the perp is someone that knows the family and knows the home, then he or she would know where Lisa's room is. The dogs wouldn't bark because the perp is known to them. The baby wouldn't cry because the perp is known to her. The phones were taken because they were there--maybe for money, maybe to delay a call to LE, maybe because the perp wanted a new cell phone.

Thanks. That is quite a theory - that the teen took the 10 month old baby for sexual purposes. Has that kidnap/sexual assault/murder ever happened before with a ten month old baby?

redfish
10-10-2011, 03:17 AM
Thanks. That is quite a theory - that the teen took the 10 month old baby for sexual purposes. Has that kidnap/sexual assault/murder ever happened before with a ten month old baby?

I wish I could say no to your question. There are cases documented here with sexual assault against even far younger innocent babies. Many perpatrated by their own parents. This is not a pretty world.


(OT: I love your siggy)

HatesSociopaths
10-10-2011, 03:20 AM
I wish I could say no to your question. There are cases documented here with sexual assault against even far younger innocent babies. Many perpatrated by their own parents. This is not a pretty world.


(OT: I love your siggy)

Thanks. If any one can name one I would like to review it.

redfish
10-10-2011, 03:23 AM
I have been reading here almost non- stop today trying to stay caught up. I was really praying that something would break today in this case. I think I will go rest my eyes so I can follow again tomorrow... Goodnite peeps!

redfish
10-10-2011, 03:26 AM
Thanks. If any one can name one I would like to review it.

I am sorry but I am cross-eyed right now! Review some of the cases in the Spotlight on Crimes Against Children forum. But warning.... you will be a changed person after!

redfish
10-10-2011, 03:31 AM
Thanks. If any one can name one I would like to review it.

Sexually abused and battered one-month-old dies - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Allusonz
10-10-2011, 03:42 AM
I think there is a very good chance that the author of this article is kinda confused about the "key pad". (or maybe not) I can see why LE would keep the knowledge of an alarm system on the down-low. That would certainly eliminate suspects if that were true.

If there is an alarm system and a code was punched into it the alarm company will have a record of date, time, and code used.

cluciano63
10-10-2011, 04:00 AM
"Didn't pan out" could mean did not pan out as being a lead in this case, JMO...

lauriej
10-10-2011, 04:33 AM
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/levipage/2 ... -page-show (http://www.blogtalkradio.com/levipage/2011/10/09/levi-page-show)
Blog Talk Radio - Levi Page Show 10-9-11

Profiler Pat Brown and Prosecutor Donna Pendergast join Levi to discuss the cases of Amanda Knox and missing baby Lisa Irwin!

.......available to listen to at the above link.

JeannieC
10-10-2011, 04:41 AM
Just posting this in case anyone wants to see this on the CBS Early Show
Posted on another thread.

TX - Joshua Davis, 18 months, New Braunfels, 4 Feb 2011 - #5
HiHater Registered User Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: The Great State of TX


According to Facebook, baby Joshua's story will be on CBS' Early Show tomorrow (10/10) getting some of the NATIONAL coverage people have been asking for!!! Tune in people...never forget this precious little boy!





TX TX - Joshua Davis, 18 months, New Braunfels, 4 Feb 2011 - #5 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

neesaki
10-10-2011, 04:57 AM
Do we know that JI was at work the entire 8 hours or so, or is it possible he left work midshift, which would have been somewhere around midnight. I'm just thinking maybe it's possible he left during his lunch/dinner break and no one was aware he left. Not sure if enough time though, how far was the Starbucks he was working on from his home? Wasn't there a map posted w/ the Starbucks location ? These threads have grown so I don't remember where the map is if anyone has an idea, TIA.

I'm thinking along the lines of JI driving home parking down the street or on another street close by then walking to the house and getting the baby. If the baby was not alive, I hate to be saying this, but there are ways to do this while baby is asleep, (smothering) so she would not cry. Or, it's possible something could have been put in the baby's formula before he left the house. DB said she put the baby to bed at 7:30 with her bottle. The bottle may have been made up before JI left. I don't want to go down this path, but I woke up in the middle of the night with these thoughts. Terrible, but things like this do unfortunately happen.MOO:(

neesaki
10-10-2011, 05:18 AM
Here is the link to the case map, but the Starbucks isn't on it. Does anyone know where this Starbucks is located?

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=209942082992863047244.0004ae79b21a5bcdbda8 7&msa=0&ll=39.158301,-94.527225&spn=0.012745,0.032358

denalves
10-10-2011, 05:31 AM
Christopher Abeyta was also kidnapped from his crib in the middle of the night. He was 7 months old. There have only been a handful of non-family abductions of infants taken from their cribs. Christopher is my brother and I slept in the next room over from him the night he was kidnapped. We did not hear a thing. My family always cooperated with LE, although I remember my Parents getting upset because they didn't think LE were doing enough. My mom failed the polygraph and once she did LE formed a myopic view and did not thoroughly investigate leads. I know firsthand when my Mom was being interrorgated they told her things like "your baby is at the bottom of the lake being eaten by vernom, just tell us what you did with him" They questioned her for hours upon hours. Ironically they didn't suspect my Dad, yet my Parents slept in the same bed and it was a waterbed! The kidnapper did not turn on any lights in our home and when she left but she did leave the front door open. We didn't have anything else missing, except we had been missing a garage door opener previously. No doubt my family was under suspicion because of the "how could you not hear anything?". "why didn't the baby wake up?" Watching Lisa's disappearance unfold brings back raw emotions and memories, and no family should ever have to endure waking up to an empty crib and the torment of "not knowing". My Parents have never given up searching for their son. We do have a suspect. Her name had been given to LE the day after my brothers disappearance and she was not investigated! It is really unbelievable. My Mom did all of the investigating on her own. Finally a review is being done of my brothers case because of my families persistance. Go to www.findchristopher.com (http://www.findchristopher.com) to compare cases.

2goldfish
10-10-2011, 05:40 AM
There were 3 children in the house. Why the baby? A sick baby who is going to be a handful between teething, a cold, needing more care than an older child like diapers, feedings, baths etc.

I'm having a really difficult time with this theory except for in two cases. Grudge, or some crazed woman who wanted a baby. But, I keep coming back to no one hearing a thing. That bugs me. Opening doors and closing doors, and window screens out and lights being turned on and phones disappearing out of the kitchen? Someone was moving around that house not just a minute or two with a grab and run ya know?

And no one heard a thing even with a baby monitor on?

well I dont know, I would find that suspicious myself IF it wasnt for 4 years ago, when my now 4 year old was about 6 weeks old, we had someone break in - baby was sleeping with me and the intruder came into that room and stole my SLR and my bag from literally right next to my head on the nightstand...I never heard a thing. I was HORRIFIED that I never heard a thing. I was always such a light sleeper before that time, and now.

I wasnt decent cause baby was nursing and we'd fallen asleep like that. I never heard a thing because I was so exhausted all the time I slept like the dead when I was able to sleep.

in fact, that was something similar to the facts here: dad working midnights (although not for the first time) and forgot to lock the back door. that's how he got in (we know it was a he because he was later caught, he did lots of breakins in the area where doors were unlocked)

let me tell you I never forgot to lock a door again. I always feel almost blessed that at least the guy was only a burglar and nothing worse because the baby and I were so helpless, a newborn baby, with me sleeping and half indecent :(

(although I do wonder, because lisa is 10 month old, I dont know how their sleeping patterns are but I am just saying, you might not believe it, I never would have before, but if you're tired enough you might well sleep right through all sorts)

JeannieC
10-10-2011, 05:43 AM
Christopher Abeyta was also kidnapped from his crib in the middle of the night. He was 7 months old. There have only been a handful of non-family abductions of infants taken from their cribs. Christopher is my brother and I slept in the next room over from him the night he was kidnapped. We did not hear a thing. My family always cooperated with LE, although I remember my Parents getting upset because they didn't think LE were doing enough. My mom failed the polygraph and once she did LE formed a myopic view and did not thoroughly investigate leads. I know firsthand when my Mom was being interrorgated they told her things like "your baby is at the bottom of the lake being eaten by vernom, just tell us what you did with him" They questioned her for hours upon hours. Ironically they didn't suspect my Dad, yet my Parents slept in the same bed and it was a waterbed! The kidnapper did not turn on any lights in our home and when she left but she did leave the front door open. We didn't have anything else missing, except we had been missing a garage door opener previously. No doubt my family was under suspicion because of the "how could you not hear anything?". "why didn't the baby wake up?" Watching Lisa's disappearance unfold brings back raw emotions and memories, and no family should ever have to endure waking up to an empty crib and the torment of "not knowing". My Parents have never given up searching for their son. We do have a suspect. Her name had been given to LE the day after my brothers disappearance and she was not investigated! It is really unbelievable. My Mom did all of the investigating on her own. Finally a review is being done of my brothers case because of my families persistance. Go to www.findchristopher.com (http://www.findchristopher.com) to compare cases.

Denalves, I can't begin to tell you how sorry I am for your loss and how sorry I am for what your family has endured. I'm so glad they are reopening the case and I hope and pray they find the answers all of you deserve to have.

God Bless you.

Gardenlady
10-10-2011, 05:45 AM
Denalves, welcome, and thank you for sharing your story about Christopher. I'm so sorry to read what you and your family have been through. :hug:

It might be uncommon statistically, but stranger abductions do happen, babies are taken from homes. So far I am seeing no motive or guilt from the parents in baby Lisa's case. I think they were emotionally and physically drained from being interrogated by police last week, and things broke down because of that. Ive been so hopeful that now that they are all talking again, that new leads could be found - but now with nothing new overnight again, I wonder if it's too late, and perhaps LE has developed tunnel vision on the parents being guilty?

But then again, there was the re-enactment of a break in yesterday, so perhaps that shows they are exploring all possibilities.

As others, including myself, have said, I do think that the only other person said to have been questioned and had a DNA sample taken - the teen - is a possible key in this case. This person could fit with the only few facts we have surrounding Lisa's disappearance. Familiarity with baby and the family's routine, familiarity with the house, being known to the dog, and thus the dog not barking; the sighting of someone with a baby, and could have walked the distance to the dumpster fire. I can think of several scenarios as to WHY the teen might have done this, but won't speculate that far as mods asked us not to.

Anyway, a big :sigh: from me as I was so hoping that there would be more news this a.m. I thought things were coming to a head on Saturday, but now it looks like everything is sort of back to square one. :(

denalves
10-10-2011, 06:14 AM
Denalves, welcome, and thank you for sharing your story about Christopher. I'm so sorry to read what you and your family have been through. :hug:

It might be uncommon statistically, but stranger abductions do happen, babies are taken from homes. So far I am seeing no motive or guilt from the parents in baby Lisa's case. I think they were emotionally and physically drained from being interrogated by police last week, and things broke down because of that. Ive been so hopeful that now that they are all talking again, that new leads could be found - but now with nothing new overnight again, I wonder if it's too late, and perhaps LE has developed tunnel vision on the parents being guilty?

But then again, there was the re-enactment of a break in yesterday, so perhaps that shows they are exploring all possibilities.

As others, including myself, have said, I do think that the only other person said to have been questioned and had a DNA sample taken - the teen - is a possible key in this case. This person could fit with the only few facts we have surrounding Lisa's disappearance. Familiarity with baby and the family's routine, familiarity with the house, being known to the dog, and thus the dog not barking; the sighting of someone with a baby, and could have walked the distance to the dumpster fire. I can think of several scenarios as to WHY the teen might have done this, but won't speculate that far as mods asked us not to.

Anyway, a big :sigh: from me as I was so hoping that there would be more news this a.m. I thought things were coming to a head on Saturday, but now it looks like everything is sort of back to square one. :(

In our case, we looked at everyone we knew and everyone who had ever been in our home. My Mom even went to the library and pulled obituaries and followed up on anyone who had lost a baby/child in our city. My mom's thinking was that someone had to have seen Christopher (he was a very happy baby), and was emotionally distraught over the loss of their child and wanted another child desperately. More cases than not the abductor is someone who is acquainted with the family and usually from the area. But to take an infant and to take the risk of going in the home and being heard/caught, you obviously are not mentally well. My brothers kidnapping suspect had a past history of breaking in to homes and there are numerous police reports by her stating her home had been broken in to. It is hard to imagine a teenager being able to hold a baby without waking the baby, grab 3 cellphones without dropping one, and then closing the door behind them not making noise. And Motive is the question that needs to be answered.

In regard to the lights, the kidnapper either had to find the light switches in the dark or knew where the light switches were which meant they were familiar with the home. In my brothers case, our suspect had been in the home before. She had been stalking my family.

alwayslooking
10-10-2011, 06:28 AM
I don't know if any of you saw this story, but good lord....It shows what could happen if someone really wants your baby!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1390417/Baby-snatched-bassinet-stolen-GRANDMOTHER-58-tried-pass-own.html

Gardenlady
10-10-2011, 06:33 AM
I don't know if any of you saw this story, but good lord....It shows what could happen if someone really wants your baby!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1390417/Baby-snatched-bassinet-stolen-GRANDMOTHER-58-tried-pass-own.html

Yes, I followed baby Ramys case here,and I keep thinking of her while following Lisa's case. Unbelievable, isn't it? Ramys parents were also suspected, like Lisas, and like Lisas Mom, slept through the abduction. Thank god for the two men who called in the tip about Grandma!

SilkySifaka
10-10-2011, 06:35 AM
Why is no one searching near the creek and/or river? It is within easy walking distance to the home.

I do not understand the focus of this investigation, AT ALL.

It just feels, to me, as though someone is trying to fine tune a bad case of tunnel vision.

I don't get it either..statistically she is not alive which makes searching the waterways early even more important to get the body for evidentiary purposes.

JeannieC
10-10-2011, 06:36 AM
In our case, we looked at everyone we knew and everyone who had ever been in our home. My Mom even went to the library and pulled obituaries and followed up on anyone who had lost a baby/child in our city. My mom's thinking was that someone had to have seen Christopher (he was a very happy baby), and was emotionally distraught over the loss of their child and wanted another child desperately. More cases than not the abductor is someone who is acquainted with the family and usually from the area. But to take an infant and to take the risk of going in the home and being heard/caught, you obviously are not mentally well. My brothers kidnapping suspect had a past history of breaking in to homes and there are numerous police reports by her stating her home had been broken in to. It is hard to imagine a teenager being able to hold a baby without waking the baby, grab 3 cellphones without dropping one, and then closing the door behind them not making noise. And Motive is the question that needs to be answered.

In regard to the lights, the kidnapper either had to find the light switches in the dark or knew where the light switches were which meant they were familiar with the home. In my brothers case, our suspect had been in the home before. She had been stalking my family.


I don't believe the teenager did this. I do believe the person who did was someone who knew the family and had been in the house. The cell phones would easily slip into pockets. imo

Its hard to say who it was or why they did it. I just hope and pray they find her alive.

I hope reopening the investigation of your brother's kidnapping is successful. Fresh eyes might be a good thing. I sure hope so!

~n/t~
10-10-2011, 06:56 AM
The one above that several of us have been discussing!


I keep asking myself why they would have security system for the garage and not for the house? :waitasec: Nevertheless, I'm hoping the question why this teen had access codes to any security even if it was just the garage should be answered. Did he work for the Irwins? Did they owe him money? Would that be a motive to snatch a 10 month old baby? Why a baby when there could be other things he could have taken?

I agree with those who think if baby Lisa was abducted, the perp knew her/his way around the house and where all the light switches are and more.

denalves
10-10-2011, 06:56 AM
I don't get it either..statistically she is not alive which makes searching the waterways early even more important to get the body for evidentiary purposes.


In regard to my brothers case. We lived a few blocks from a lake and LE drained the lake. My family was very frustrated with that decision, because my parents were looking for their baby and LE was wasting valuable time looking for a body. We felt the motive had to be because someone wanted a baby, not to murder him. Who would take a 7 month old to murder a couple blocks away? In retrospect I know that LE had formed tunnel vision and felt someone in the family was responsible and therefore they drained the lake. In the mean time the kidnapper is getting away with it. In the early stages of the investigation LE needs to be pro-active, rather than re-active. I always felt like my brothers detectives just reacted to leads coming in rather than actually going out and "investigating". I now know that was the case. My brothers detectives lacked the experience. There are more investigating resources available now than there were 25 years ago.

SuziQ
10-10-2011, 07:08 AM
I keep asking myself why they would have security system for the garage and not for the house? :waitasec: Nevertheless, I'm hoping the question why this teen had access codes to any security even if it was just the garage should be answered. Did he work for the Irwins? Did they owe him money? Would that be a motive to snatch a 10 month old baby? Why a baby when there could be other things he could have taken?

I agree with those who think if baby Lisa was abducted, the perp knew her/his way around the house and where all the light switches are and more.

It is not a security system. It's to open the garage door from the outside. I have one.

http://saepudin.com/the-garage-door-keypads.html

waltzingmatilda
10-10-2011, 07:13 AM
Good Morning!

On Today show Matt and Clint van Sandt are discussing a handyman from the neighborhood that hasn't been seen since Lisa disappeared. They said FBI was showing his picture to neighbors.

Has anyone heard anything about this? TIA

wm

natsound
10-10-2011, 07:15 AM
I don't get it either..statistically she is not alive which makes searching the waterways early even more important to get the body for evidentiary purposes.

This is the reason I'm keeping the door open in my mind that this might be a set-up by the parents. Police look for certain signs in parents when they're investigating missing persons, because the parents are always looked at first. I have a hunch that the parents are giving them indications that they know much more than they're letting on, and perhaps PD have a strong hunch they don't need to look for a body.

I wish I could go to the scene to get a feel for it, but it seems to me PD are spending more time searching for evidence at the house than anywhere else.

Have they seized the family's computer? I remember an early shot of PD carrying clothes out of the house, but that's it.

alwayslooking
10-10-2011, 07:15 AM
Thanks. That is quite a theory - that the teen took the 10 month old baby for sexual purposes. Has that kidnap/sexual assault/murder ever happened before with a ten month old baby?

This case did not have kidnapping or murder, only because he was smart enough to have his vicitm's brought to him and he had the medical where with all, to revive! The youngest victim was only 3 months old!

http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20100224/NEWS01/2240356/Delaware-crime-Dr-Earl-Bradley-sex-case-ignites-outrage

JeannieC
10-10-2011, 07:18 AM
Early Show is about to show Josua Davis and discuss how some children make it into the news and others don't

natsound
10-10-2011, 07:18 AM
I don't believe the teenager did this. I do believe the person who did was someone who knew the family and had been in the house. The cell phones would easily slip into pockets. imo

Its hard to say who it was or why they did it. I just hope and pray they find her alive.

I hope reopening the investigation of your brother's kidnapping is successful. Fresh eyes might be a good thing. I sure hope so!


Here's what bothers me about the cell phones... the intruder would have had to make a special trip into the kitchen to grab the phones. How would he/she know the phones were there? Did the intruder get the phones first, then the baby, or the baby, then the phones?

~n/t~
10-10-2011, 07:20 AM
Good Morning!

On Today show Matt and Clint van Sandt are discussing a handyman from the neighborhood that hasn't been seen since Lisa disappeared. They said FBI was showing his picture to neighbors.

Has anyone heard anything about this? TIA

wm

First time I hear this.

cj1132
10-10-2011, 07:21 AM
I know statistics have been discussed as a reason the parents must be involved. What about those babies that were the exception? It's rare that a baby is abducted but it happens. Just ask one of those families that were sadly on the "wrong side" of the statistics. As for Lisa's parents' story, seriously, if they were going to make up a story to cover up Lisa's disappearance, I highly doubt they'd tell the story they're tellng. I stand by my opinion that they are not responsible. I will say maybe a stranger took her but I feel more strongly it was someone known to them.

natsound
10-10-2011, 07:22 AM
Good Morning!

On Today show Matt and Clint van Sandt are discussing a handyman from the neighborhood that hasn't been seen since Lisa disappeared. They said FBI was showing his picture to neighbors.

Has anyone heard anything about this? TIA

wm

I am looking forward to seeing this interview. I have to wait an hour... :waiting:

I checked the websites of two Kansas City new outlets, and neither of them reported this. That's frustrating, because news like this is pretty important!

~n/t~
10-10-2011, 07:23 AM
Why aren't they releasing a picture of the missing handyman???

alwayslooking
10-10-2011, 07:24 AM
Christopher Abeyta was also kidnapped from his crib in the middle of the night. He was 7 months old. There have only been a handful of non-family abductions of infants taken from their cribs. Christopher is my brother and I slept in the next room over from him the night he was kidnapped. We did not hear a thing. My family always cooperated with LE, although I remember my Parents getting upset because they didn't think LE were doing enough. My mom failed the polygraph and once she did LE formed a myopic view and did not thoroughly investigate leads. I know firsthand when my Mom was being interrorgated they told her things like "your baby is at the bottom of the lake being eaten by vernom, just tell us what you did with him" They questioned her for hours upon hours. Ironically they didn't suspect my Dad, yet my Parents slept in the same bed and it was a waterbed! The kidnapper did not turn on any lights in our home and when she left but she did leave the front door open. We didn't have anything else missing, except we had been missing a garage door opener previously. No doubt my family was under suspicion because of the "how could you not hear anything?". "why didn't the baby wake up?" Watching Lisa's disappearance unfold brings back raw emotions and memories, and no family should ever have to endure waking up to an empty crib and the torment of "not knowing". My Parents have never given up searching for their son. We do have a suspect. Her name had been given to LE the day after my brothers disappearance and she was not investigated! It is really unbelievable. My Mom did all of the investigating on her own. Finally a review is being done of my brothers case because of my families persistance. Go to www.findchristopher.com (http://www.findchristopher.com) to compare cases.

I am so sorry that this has happened to your family, and pray for your baby brother! You are proof this can happen! God Bless you

waltzingmatilda
10-10-2011, 07:25 AM
I agree, this is important if true. IDK how Matt lauer would know this info. Today will probably air the story again in the 3rd hour and post to their site after that.

wm

waltzingmatilda
10-10-2011, 07:27 AM
Why aren't they releasing a picture of the missing handyman???

ML asked CVS about this and CVS said authorities probably want to talk to him first. If they cannot find him, I think they outa release a darn sketch.
MOO

wm

Cazzie
10-10-2011, 07:31 AM
Was it stated that this handyman knew Lisa's family (or worked in a nearby home)?

waltzingmatilda
10-10-2011, 07:38 AM
Was it stated that this handyman knew Lisa's family (or worked in a nearby home)?

Not sure if he knows Lisa's family but he lived in the neighborhood.

Gah! They started the piece just as I went to the bathroom so I missed the first part. A neighbor was being interviewed when I returned so maybe this info came from her and I missed it.

He apparantly is one of the neighbors who the LE haven't spoken to as Matt stated the man hasn't been seen since Lisa disappeared.

wm

hannahsnana
10-10-2011, 07:39 AM
I haven't heard much about the ex-partners of the parents. I know that the mother is still legally married; that's not really what I'm talking about. Were there jealousy issues? The father has custody of his son. Where is this son's mother?

neesaki
10-10-2011, 07:40 AM
Do we know that JI was at work the entire 8 hours or so, or is it possible he left work midshift, which would have been somewhere around midnight. I'm just thinking maybe it's possible he left during his lunch/dinner break and no one was aware he left. Not sure if enough time though, how far was the Starbucks he was working on from his home? Wasn't there a map posted w/ the Starbucks location ? These threads have grown so I don't remember where the map is if anyone has an idea, TIA.

I'm thinking along the lines of JI driving home parking down the street or on another street close by then walking to the house and getting the baby. If the baby was not alive, I hate to be saying this, but there are ways to do this while baby is asleep, (smothering) so she would not cry. Or, it's possible something could have been put in the baby's formula before he left the house. DB said she put the baby to bed at 7:30 with her bottle. The bottle may have been made up before JI left. I don't want to go down this path, but I woke up in the middle of the night with these thoughts. Terrible, but things like this do unfortunately happen.MOO:(

Sorry for having to quote myself, but I just can't seem to get this off mymind:waitasec:

I don't remember hearing many details about how solid the information is on JI's hours at work and whether there is anyone else to corroborate the time he actually left work. Who else was working that night and actually knows the exact time he left or can it even be verified? If he got home an hour or so earlier than he said this would change the whole story.

Taking the cell phones would be in case DB woke up before he got back and found baby Lisa gone. There are no witnesses before DB was awakened by JI, we have only his word to go on.

I find it odd that LE didn't want JI to take a lie detector test, but wanted DB to. I think it was mentioned previously, that there's a possibility LE may consider JI a suspect, but they don't want him to know their suspicions.

I'm not saying I believe for sure anything like this happened, I do wish we had more facts on JI's work hours though. MOO

waltzingmatilda
10-10-2011, 07:43 AM
I haven't heard much about the ex-partners of the parents. I know that the mother is still legally married; that's not really what I'm talking about. Were there jealousy issues? The father has custody of his son. Where is this son's mother?

Today show said that the Mom is still legally married to the Bradley guy. But he is in armed services and is deployed so that rules him out.

wm

BetteDavisEyes
10-10-2011, 07:44 AM
Are the parents scheduled to be on any of the morning news shows? Today? GMA? Haven't seen or heard anything yet but thought someone here might know. Thanks.

Gardenlady
10-10-2011, 07:48 AM
Good Morning!

On Today show Matt and Clint van Sandt are discussing a handyman from the neighborhood that hasn't been seen since Lisa disappeared. They said FBI was showing his picture to neighbors.

Has anyone heard anything about this? TIA

wm

WOW. Saw nothing in any of the online news articles about this, this morning! Can't wait to watch when it gets posted online.

This would definitely fit. I too do not believe the parents are involved. But like the teen neighbor, this handyman neighbor would also fit what we know so far, and would also have familiarity with the family/home/etc.!

Gardenlady
10-10-2011, 07:51 AM
Are the parents scheduled to be on any of the morning news shows? Today? GMA? Haven't seen or heard anything yet but thought someone here might know. Thanks.

I don't think they have anything scheduled - believe over the weekend they said they'd be scaling back on the interviews from now on.

waltzingmatilda
10-10-2011, 07:59 AM
WOW. Saw nothing in any of the online news articles about this, this morning! Can't wait to watch when it gets posted online.

This would definitely fit. I too do not believe the parents are involved. But like the teen neighbor, this handyman neighbor would also fit what we know so far, and would also have familiarity with the family/home/etc.!

respectfully BBM

That's basically what the lady (a neighbor, I assume) was saying in the interview when I came out of the bathroom. She was saying that the neighbors are all taking safety precautions because they are scared that it's someone close by whose is familiar with the neighborhood.

I can't wait to watch it again cause I'd bet that this new tidbit came from her but can't be sure til I watch the whole thing.


Moo and paraphrased from what I heard.
wm

SuziQ
10-10-2011, 08:00 AM
Here is the Today video that mentions the Handyman. let me know if the link doesn't work.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/44842241#44842241

TobyWong*
10-10-2011, 08:00 AM
Good morning all!

I swear, when a case gets to me like this, i feel like I'm locked in the websleuths super8 room and have'nt come out for air in a week.!

I'm praying today is the day we find this baby!!!

~n/t~
10-10-2011, 08:03 AM
Ugh! The video won't load for me. It keeps saying loading but nothing comes up.

Elley Mae
10-10-2011, 08:06 AM
http://www.fox4kc.com/news/wdaf-tips-hotline-working-to-crack-lisa-irwins-case-20111009,0,1434833.story
"This is a pretty rare occurrence," said Kevin Boehm, a detective with the Kansas City Police Dept.

"In fact, this is the first time we've handled something like this.

Duke Fan4
10-10-2011, 08:09 AM
Morning folks! Another day another opinion for me today.

vlpate
10-10-2011, 08:10 AM
Good Morning!

On Today show Matt and Clint van Sandt are discussing a handyman from the neighborhood that hasn't been seen since Lisa disappeared. They said FBI was showing his picture to neighbors.

Has anyone heard anything about this? TIA

wm
Watching GMA and there's no mention of a handyman. I'm wondering....is this maybe coming from a new lawyer for JI and DB?

I think if this handyman were an important clue they'd have mentioned it.

Elley Mae
10-10-2011, 08:10 AM
http://www.kctv5.com/story/15655082/hope-does-not-fade-in-search-for-baby-lisa


And police said they still have very few clues on where the baby might be located.

SuziQ
10-10-2011, 08:11 AM
Ugh! The video won't load for me. It keeps saying loading but nothing comes up.

Darn it. I just tried it and it's working for me. Hopefully it will work for you soon. The CVS interview was good as well.

SuziQ
10-10-2011, 08:13 AM
Watching GMA and there's no mention of a handyman. I'm wondering....is this maybe coming from a new lawyer for JI and DB?

I think if this handyman were an important clue they'd have mentioned it.

The reporter said he spoke to neighbors. So I'm assuming they told him that LE was asking about this guy and showing his picture. Emphasis on assuming since I'm just guessing.

waltzingmatilda
10-10-2011, 08:14 AM
Watching GMA and there's no mention of a handyman. I'm wondering....is this maybe coming from a new lawyer for JI and DB?

I think if this handyman were an important clue they'd have mentioned it.

Bringing up this link that SuziQ so kindly posted. The handyman is discussed.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/44842241#44842241

wm

JeannieC
10-10-2011, 08:14 AM
Ugh! The video won't load for me. It keeps saying loading but nothing comes up.

Its probably in overload! All of us at once. :floorlaugh:

Cher352
10-10-2011, 08:16 AM
Here is the Today video that mentions the Handyman. let me know if the link doesn't work.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/44842241#44842241

Thanks!
Would be very interesting to know where this guy lives in the neighborhood and if it is close to where that man was seen walking down the street with a baby that first night.

~n/t~
10-10-2011, 08:16 AM
Its probably in overload! All of us at once. :floorlaugh:

:floorlaugh: I figured!

momtective
10-10-2011, 08:18 AM
There was also a piece on GMA this morning http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-baby-lisa-police-stage-break-familys-home/story?id=14702680

vlpate
10-10-2011, 08:20 AM
The reporter said he spoke to neighbors. So I'm assuming they told him that LE was asking about this guy and showing his picture. Emphasis on assuming since I'm just guessing.

Thank you for the link SuziQ! I don't know....seems like something benign or they'd have already investigated him and would have his name out there. With the FBI and 300 investigators, how hard could it be.

I wonder if it wasn't just some poor shmuck who worked on one house and went back home ... maybe not FROM the neighborhood?

andalso
10-10-2011, 08:22 AM
Thanks!
Would be very interesting to know where this guy lives in the neighborhood and if it is close to where that man was seen walking down the street with a baby that first night.

Would like more info on the man seen carrying the baby. What time was that? Who was it that saw that? Wasn't it reported that that baby was only wearing a diaper (in which case, maybe the clothes went in the dumpster?)
My mind is going in a million directions right now since the report of the missing handyman.

Gardenlady
10-10-2011, 08:23 AM
The reporter said he spoke to neighbors. So I'm assuming they told him that LE was asking about this guy and showing his picture. Emphasis on assuming since I'm just guessing.

Exactly. The reporter's VoiceOver said police went door to door asking about the handyman. The female neighbor they briefly interviewed said words to the effect that it's scary that it could be someone who worked next door, and spoke and played with your kids.

Creepy.

Cher352
10-10-2011, 08:23 AM
Where is In da Middle when you need her???...LOL!

Since the Today show said LE was going through the neighborhood asking about him it would be interesting to know what she knows about it.

momtective
10-10-2011, 08:25 AM
The GMA piece mentions a plumber being in the home 2 weeks ago.

Elley Mae
10-10-2011, 08:26 AM
Where is In da Middle when you need her???...LOL!

Since the Today show said LE was going through the neighborhood asking about him it would be interesting to know what she knows about it.

I hope this is not going to turn into a who can we throw under the bus today case. hate to see lives destroyed.

Cher352
10-10-2011, 08:26 AM
Would like more info on the man seen carrying the baby. What time was that? Who was it that saw that? Wasn't it reported that that baby was only wearing a diaper (in which case, maybe the clothes went in the dumpster?)
My mind is going in a million directions right now since the report of the missing handyman.

Video report on it here.

denalves
10-10-2011, 08:27 AM
Today show said that the Mom is still legally married to the Bradley guy. But he is in armed services and is deployed so that rules him out.

wm

Anyone associated so closely with the parents needs to be looked at with magnifying glasses. Someone could have been hired to carry out the kidnapping, although that is a little difficult to believe. The suspect for my brother's kidnapping is the woman my Father had an affair with. Peoples emotions can drive them to do crazy things. Motive?

twall
10-10-2011, 08:27 AM
[/B]

respectfully BBM

That's basically what the lady (a neighbor, I assume) was saying in the interview when I came out of the bathroom. She was saying that the neighbors are all taking safety precautions because they are scared that it's someone close by whose is familiar with the neighborhood.

I can't wait to watch it again cause I'd bet that this new tidbit came from her but can't be sure til I watch the whole thing.


Moo and paraphrased from what I heard.
wm

I was watching some local news videos from the first 2 days of coverage that I missed and was floored at the neighbors being interviewed in front of their homes who showed their small children and said they were scared. If they are so scared they should not be advertising their kids and where they live! Geez! :maddening: That doesn't seem like a safety precaution to me!

NancyA
10-10-2011, 08:28 AM
I know statistics have been discussed as a reason the parents must be involved. What about those babies that were the exception? It's rare that a baby is abducted but it happens. Just ask one of those families that were sadly on the "wrong side" of the statistics. As for Lisa's parents' story, seriously, if they were going to make up a story to cover up Lisa's disappearance, I highly doubt they'd tell the story they're tellng. I stand by my opinion that they are not responsible. I will say maybe a stranger took her but I feel more strongly it was someone known to them.

BBM.

This! You see, yesterday I was reminded that - to paraphrase - statistically it’s always the most obvious suspects ie those closest to the victim who are the perps – that the Casey Anthonys, the O.Js and the Ramseys ARE indeed guilty and therefore it’s more than a little ludicrous to consider a stranger did it. And I agree those pesky statistics do bear this theory out in 99.9% of cases, however, the more I think about it (and I’ll admit that the charge of ‘ludicrous’ did rankle a little, though, honestly, I’m not bitter :wink: ) often the reason that other scenarios seem ludicrous is because they ARE ludicrous and more so because they are most often put forth by the suspect or his/her defense team who overreach, overstage, exaggerate and lie. We have invisi-nannies, too-small blood-soaked gloves, ransom notes from small foreign factions etc stories so out there very few find them at all credible. But in this case what do we have that is so outrageously far-fetched? Nothing I can see. The break in no one hears, the lights switched on, the dog that didn’t bark and the missing cell phones? Home invasions and burglaries happen all the time in houses full of sleeping people with dogs, and even with sophisticated alarm systems etc and while kidnappings of this kind are rare, stories such as those of Christopher highlighted so poignantly here, Polly Klaas, little Kienan, Elizabeth Smart all show that they can and do happen.

Nothing as far as I can see in this case leads me to believe that it is ‘ludicrous’ to suppose these parents weren’t involved. Yep ITA, if they were gonna stage a kidnapping to cover up a negligent accident/murder couldn’t they come up with a better story?

And a sidenote, hell, seems to me that the more ludicrous the story the more likely the most likely suspects are to get away with it if the 3 cases aforementioned are anything to go by. JMO.

waltzingmatilda
10-10-2011, 08:28 AM
Where is In da Middle when you need her???...LOL!

Since the Today show said LE was going through the neighborhood asking about him it would be interesting to know what she knows about it.

LOL! We think alike Cher!

One thing that concerns me is that Matt said the mysterious handyman 'possibly' has a police record.

Let's all watch today to see if other msm picks up on this story.

wm

CN2Souls
10-10-2011, 08:29 AM
Morning Everyone, :seeya:

:hug: to all who kept up on info...



Where is the RECAP post?


I had "Real Life" all weekend.


Wondering what I may have missed...


Or maybe some one can give a recap....

TYA

justbeachy
10-10-2011, 08:29 AM
Anything is possible, but I'm just not feeling the handyman angle. No reason why, so don't ask me for any logic behind it. LOL

Gardenlady
10-10-2011, 08:32 AM
CN2 here is the timeline/summary link:

Lisa Irwin-Timeline - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Not much happened over night. yesterday LE was back at the Irwin home filming "reenactments" of possible window break in.

waltzingmatilda
10-10-2011, 08:32 AM
Morning Everyone, :seeya:

:hug: to all who kept up on info...



Where is the RECAP post?


I had "Real Life" all weekend.


Wondering what I may have missed...


Or maybe some one can give a recap....

TYA

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/44842241#44842241

New info at link about a mysterious handyman...

andalso
10-10-2011, 08:34 AM
Video report on it here.

Think you meant to put a link? TIA (Still early, I know)

SilkySifaka
10-10-2011, 08:36 AM
Good Morning!

On Today show Matt and Clint van Sandt are discussing a handyman from the neighborhood that hasn't been seen since Lisa disappeared. They said FBI was showing his picture to neighbors.

Has anyone heard anything about this? TIA

wm

WHAA????? seems a tad coincidental for a man to disappear right afterwards.

chieftess
10-10-2011, 08:38 AM
watching local news, kctv5
Police searched a wooded area in Edwardsville KS, but found nothing.
First time it was mentioned they said it was near a job that JI worked at recently.
Second time mentioned, said they were following up on a tip
I checked for updates on their website, but they don't have this info loaded yet

waltzingmatilda
10-10-2011, 08:38 AM
WHAA????? seems a tad coincidental for a man to disappear right afterwards.

I just listened to the vid again and Matt said handyman had not been seen since before Lisa disappeared.

Just wanted to clarify.:crazy:

wm

Elley Mae
10-10-2011, 08:40 AM
WHAA????? seems a tad coincidental for a man to disappear right afterwards.

I will wait on this info. what if he is not from the neighborhood, and because he can't be reached, he can't be located.

mrye4709
10-10-2011, 08:40 AM
Geez, I hope I can catch up after I get one ready and take her school.

I was thinking too much this morning. If I wanted to stage a kidnapping I would have thrown a rock or something to make the dogs bark, NOT pushed the screen in and left only enough lights on to see, not all. I just don't think either of these parents did anything. It was someone who knows them, reall close. Knows they keep doors closed, knows where baby Lisas room is, knows dad would be gone on THIS night. Wanted to make these parents hurt real bad and lose their entire life and reputations. JMO. Maybe the ex that said he was ruthless? How can that be if she didn't even protest custody? How did they clear everyone on their list? It's night and most people are sleeping. I have left with my daughter and taken the child in the house (to the ER) a couple of times and didn't wake my hubby because I knew I would be home before he got up. He never knew until I told him. I'm praying this baby is ok and will be home soon with her family. JMO

chieftess
10-10-2011, 08:40 AM
ok, they just updated
here's the link:
http://www.kctv5.com/story/15655082/hope-does-not-fade-in-search-for-baby-lisa

At the same time, police were called to Edwardsville, KS, on a tip.

Detectives searched the wooded area where it went into the Kansas River.

Police said they received information that it is where baby Lisa's father had a job recently; they left empty handed.

snipped that from the article, no mention of the handyman

SilkySifaka
10-10-2011, 08:41 AM
In regard to my brothers case. We lived a few blocks from a lake and LE drained the lake. My family was very frustrated with that decision, because my parents were looking for their baby and LE was wasting valuable time looking for a body. We felt the motive had to be because someone wanted a baby, not to murder him. Who would take a 7 month old to murder a couple blocks away? In retrospect I know that LE had formed tunnel vision and felt someone in the family was responsible and therefore they drained the lake. In the mean time the kidnapper is getting away with it. In the early stages of the investigation LE needs to be pro-active, rather than re-active. I always felt like my brothers detectives just reacted to leads coming in rather than actually going out and "investigating". I now know that was the case. My brothers detectives lacked the experience. There are more investigating resources available now than there were 25 years ago.

So sorry to hear about your brother. Hopefully new investigation will get some answers.

I believe that in many cases (especially when there is some evidence a woman is involved) it does mean solely an abduction. This one is different to me...don't think the parents did it but do think it was someone who either is a pedophile or wanted to harm the parents and were quite able to kill a baby to do so. I just see no reason for keeping her alive, to dangerous, if it was for either of those reasons.

shefner
10-10-2011, 08:42 AM
Christopher Abeyta was also kidnapped from his crib in the middle of the night. He was 7 months old. There have only been a handful of non-family abductions of infants taken from their cribs. Christopher is my brother and I slept in the next room over from him the night he was kidnapped. We did not hear a thing. My family always cooperated with LE, although I remember my Parents getting upset because they didn't think LE were doing enough. My mom failed the polygraph and once she did LE formed a myopic view and did not thoroughly investigate leads. I know firsthand when my Mom was being interrorgated they told her things like "your baby is at the bottom of the lake being eaten by vernom, just tell us what you did with him" They questioned her for hours upon hours. Ironically they didn't suspect my Dad, yet my Parents slept in the same bed and it was a waterbed! The kidnapper did not turn on any lights in our home and when she left but she did leave the front door open. We didn't have anything else missing, except we had been missing a garage door opener previously. No doubt my family was under suspicion because of the "how could you not hear anything?". "why didn't the baby wake up?" Watching Lisa's disappearance unfold brings back raw emotions and memories, and no family should ever have to endure waking up to an empty crib and the torment of "not knowing". My Parents have never given up searching for their son. We do have a suspect. Her name had been given to LE the day after my brothers disappearance and she was not investigated! It is really unbelievable. My Mom did all of the investigating on her own. Finally a review is being done of my brothers case because of my families persistance. Go to www.findchristopher.com (http://www.findchristopher.com) to compare cases.



Denalves, I wanted to take a moment to thank you for being here at Websleuths and for your willingness to share from your heart about your brother, Christopher. How painful and traumatic for you and your parents to have him taken from you. I am not familiar with your brother's abduction but I am going to read the link you provided. I just thought I would take stop for a bit and tell you how sorry I am. Prayers for you and your family....shefner

alwayslooking
10-10-2011, 08:44 AM
Here are some examples of abductions by neighbors:

David Westerfield - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://lunaticoutpost.com/Topic-Missing-Abducted-Missouri-3-yr-old-girl-dead-neighbor-arrested

http://www.click2houston.com/news/26334262/detail.html

http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2011/05/10/news/doc4dc905f8261f0869777575.txt?viewmode=2

And this is just the tip of the iceberg, this does not includ any children taken by stranger's that watched from afar!

hannahsnana
10-10-2011, 08:45 AM
Sorry, trying to keep up, but have some questions about the dumpster fire. What time did this occur? Did police retrieve any items from this dumpster, or was everything totally incinerated? Also, do we have any information on the phone call between the parents, such as who called whom, length of call, etc? TIA.

vlpate
10-10-2011, 08:45 AM
The GMA piece mentions a plumber being in the home 2 weeks ago.

Really? I didn't hear that. Her husband is an electrician and would probably know a plumber - maybe even someone who worked on the Starbucks project. Surely they've checked this out too.

Cher352
10-10-2011, 08:45 AM
Think you meant to put a link? TIA (Still early, I know)

Sorry! Yes, way too early!

Here is a link that will take to a list of NBC videos, you will have to click on the video title.

Look on the right side towards the bottom for the one that is titled
Neighbor: My Husband May Have Seen Suspect

http://www.nbcactionnews.com/generic/news/Lisa-Irwin-AMBER-Alert#ixzz1aDSZd0pi

SilkySifaka
10-10-2011, 08:49 AM
Thank you for the link SuziQ! I don't know....seems like something benign or they'd have already investigated him and would have his name out there. With the FBI and 300 investigators, how hard could it be.

I wonder if it wasn't just some poor shmuck who worked on one house and went back home ... maybe not FROM the neighborhood?

My first reaction to LE's "first time we handled something like this" comment was "we can tell" :maddening:

Doesn't matter if its benign or not, if they can't find him they need to get his pic out so they can discover if it is. Assuming is what we can do, not LE.

waltzingmatilda
10-10-2011, 08:51 AM
This alleged handyman and the alleged man carrying a baby wearing a diaper at midnight sure makes me take pause. I have just had a gut feeling that whoever took Lisa saw her playing in the yard on a regular basis and coveted her. In da Middle stated that the family was visible with the kids playing in the yard alot and there is also that adorable pic of Lisa standing in the grass playing on her lil kitchen set.

I may be wrong, as I am alot of times, but I just can't believe the parents are involved. Not yet anyway.

MOO

wm

twall
10-10-2011, 08:52 AM
Here's what bothers me about the cell phones... the intruder would have had to make a special trip into the kitchen to grab the phones. How would he/she know the phones were there? Did the intruder get the phones first, then the baby, or the baby, then the phones?

From what I saw of the floor plan if intruder entered through front window they would have had to pass through the kitchen to get to Lisa's br. They would have walked right by them, stop and pick them up, put in pockets, go in baby's room, pick up baby, walk out front door. JMO

vlpate
10-10-2011, 08:54 AM
The GMA piece mentions a plumber being in the home 2 weeks ago.

"The plumber who worked there two weeks ago, if that's true."

Sort of ambiguous. This guy wasn't on GMA this morning...must be an older clip that comes on after the current one.

Lavanda Dolce
10-10-2011, 08:55 AM
I think Dr Glass is great. What was your opinion. Do you agree with Dr.Glass?

No. Not at all. I do not believe the mom is odd or acting strangely in any way.

vlpate
10-10-2011, 08:56 AM
This alleged handyman and the alleged man carrying a baby wearing a diaper at midnight sure makes me take pause. I have just had a gut feeling that whoever took Lisa saw her playing in the yard on a regular basis and coveted her. In da Middle stated that the family was visible with the kids playing in the yard alot and there is also that adorable pic of Lisa standing in the grass playing on her lil kitchen set.

I may be wrong, as I am alot of times, but I just can't believe the parents are involved. Not yet anyway.

MOO

wm

Young said they cleared up the lead for the man carrying the baby in the middle of the night and there was nothing to it. This was on Judge Jeanine and the segment has yet to be published on the Internet.

Cher352
10-10-2011, 08:56 AM
My first reaction to LE's "first time we handled something like this" comment was "we can tell" :maddening:

Doesn't matter if its benign or not, if they can't find him they need to get his pic out so they can discover if it is. Assuming is what we can do, not LE.

I am surprised to hear from the Today video that LE did not canvas the neighborhood about him until Sunday unless it has to do with a tip they just received.

Ref:
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/44842241#44842241

Lavanda Dolce
10-10-2011, 08:57 AM
From what I saw of the floor plan if intruder entered through front window they would have had to pass through the kitchen to get to Lisa's br. They would have walked right by them, stop and pick them up, put in pockets, go in baby's room, pick up baby, walk out front door. JMO

Gut says two people. Went to window and while at window the other checked the door and whispered..."Hey door is unlocked!" and thus efforts stopped for the window and they went in through door and exited through door.

Lavanda Dolce
10-10-2011, 08:57 AM
Anything is possible, but I'm just not feeling the handyman angle. No reason why, so don't ask me for any logic behind it. LOL

Me either.

Lavanda Dolce
10-10-2011, 08:58 AM
I don't get it either..statistically she is not alive which makes searching the waterways early even more important to get the body for evidentiary purposes.

I believe she is alive and she is with someone who wanted a baby. Keep the hope...

BetteDavisEyes
10-10-2011, 09:01 AM
Update on Lisa Irwin coming up this hour on Today (NBC).

ETA: Well, that was quick! Maybe it was just a headline at the top of the hour, but there wasn't much of an update. Mentioned the handy man, that the parents met with investigators over the weekend but haven't given interviews, and that DB is still married to another man because they couldn't afford a divorce.

vlpate
10-10-2011, 09:02 AM
My first reaction to LE's "first time we handled something like this" comment was "we can tell" :maddening:

Doesn't matter if its benign or not, if they can't find him they need to get his pic out so they can discover if it is. Assuming is what we can do, not LE.

I appreciate that they aren't throwing pictures of everyone mentioned to LE and the FBI out there for public scrutiny. Many lives have been completely destroyed by over-zealous detectives and parents who want to throw any and everyone under the bus, which I get, but there needs to be more to go on.

Remember Richard Ricci who ended up dead in prison? The Ramsey case had so much collateral damage I lost count in the first year.

Who said this is the first time they've handled something like this....and something like what?

IMO, LE is doing a good job.

SilkySifaka
10-10-2011, 09:02 AM
This alleged handyman and the alleged man carrying a baby wearing a diaper at midnight sure makes me take pause. I have just had a gut feeling that whoever took Lisa saw her playing in the yard on a regular basis and coveted her. In da Middle stated that the family was visible with the kids playing in the yard alot and there is also that adorable pic of Lisa standing in the grass playing on her lil kitchen set.

I may be wrong, as I am alot of times, but I just can't believe the parents are involved. Not yet anyway.

MOO

wm

I remember in the Van Damm case, how the parents were crucified until they discovered Westerfield. And how innocuous he seemed, totally the normal family man.

Heck in most of the cases the parents were crucified publicly until someone else was arrested.

These parents seem to fit the rare cases, even the question "too coincidental that it happens on the dads first night at work" imo works for the parents.

It seems to me far more unlikely that the mom chose to snap and kill what seems to be a beloved child on the first night dad isn't there than it is a neighbor, an outsider who had an idea of the routine OR just lucked in re dad.

imo

Rallihanna
10-10-2011, 09:02 AM
This just smells rotten to me... I feel like LE has a good handle on what's going on and I honestly don't trust a lot of the other leaks.

natsound
10-10-2011, 09:05 AM
BBM.

And a sidenote, hell, seems to me that the more ludicrous the story the more likely the most likely suspects are to get away with it if the 3 cases aforementioned are anything to go by. JMO.

snipped... ITA here! :banghead: If this case involved a story about a :abduction: then they'd probably get a jury to believe it when all is said and done!

twall
10-10-2011, 09:05 AM
The house being released so soon and not being throughly searched before the release bothers me.
I knew they went back in the home Saturday evening. Saw it on a local news report. I just watched a report I had not yet seen from Sunday's Today show where they covered the search. It showed CS techs analyzing the front door, moving things around and searching in the room with the tampered window, on the roof and more metal detecting. Then the window entry experiment yesterday. Why didn't they hold the home longer and as new developments occur they can go back to the home without it being contaminated by news media and other people going in and out? They held the home less than 48 hrs. I am thinking LE were not even running parallel investigations, ie, intruder did it/parents did it. It seems to me they may have ruled out family then started looking into the intruder theory. Not good and if that is the case I hope it doesn't come back to bite them you know where.

JMO

Lavanda Dolce
10-10-2011, 09:05 AM
I keep asking myself why they would have security system for the garage and not for the house? :waitasec: Nevertheless, I'm hoping the question why this teen had access codes to any security even if it was just the garage should be answered. Did he work for the Irwins? Did they owe him money? Would that be a motive to snatch a 10 month old baby? Why a baby when there could be other things he could have taken?

I agree with those who think if baby Lisa was abducted, the perp knew her/his way around the house and where all the light switches are and more.

Our next door neighbor has the code to our home. Once we went on our weekend camping trip and he (next door neighbor) also was going to be out of town the same weekend .We gave our code to one of our son's friends who is a teenager to give fresh water to the cat each morning. I do not believe the teen has anything to do with this case. I think it may end up being some kind of break that neither mom or dad thought about and it will come from something said or done online...innocently. Someone that was monitoring their activities and wanted a baby. Even innocent things like "G'nite all...talk tomorrow, time for bed have an early day tomorrow" is a sign. Back pages of conversation such as "yay! Hubby got a job! Finally! Bummer it will be a night shift...but hey, in this economy...we don't care!".....etc. Things like that. I see just far too much being divulged online and I get especially concerned when I see parents talk about their children and post photos, etc.

natsound
10-10-2011, 09:06 AM
This just smells rotten to me... I feel like LE has a good handle on what's going on and I honestly don't trust a lot of the other leaks.

I'm right there with ya.

Gardenlady
10-10-2011, 09:06 AM
Sorry, trying to keep up, but have some questions about the dumpster fire. What time did this occur? Did police retrieve any items from this dumpster, or was everything totally incinerated? Also, do we have any information on the phone call between the parents, such as who called whom, length of call, etc? TIA.

THe fire was around 2:28 am the night/morning of disappearance. Right around the same time as the phone call that they wont comment on.

Maybe the timeline has the exact time?

Lisa Irwin-Timeline - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (timeline link)

raeann
10-10-2011, 09:08 AM
snipped... ITA here! :banghead: If this case involved a story about a :abduction: then they'd probably get a jury to believe it when all is said and done!

:ohwow:

As I posted once before.....there were 17 reports of UFO's in this area of Kansas City over the same time period that is in question in this case......just sayin'

:crazy:

SilkySifaka
10-10-2011, 09:09 AM
The house being released so soon and not being throughly searched before the release bothers me.
I knew they went back in the home Saturday evening. Saw it on a local news report. I just watched a report I had not yet seen from Sunday's Today show where they covered the search. It showed CS techs analyzing the front door, moving things around and searching in the room with the tampered window, on the roof and more metal detecting. Then the window entry experiment yesterday. Why didn't they hold the home longer and as new developments occur they can go back to the home without it being contaminated by news media and other people going in and out? They held the home less than 48 hrs. I am thinking LE were not even running parallel investigations, ie, intruder did it/parents did it. It seems to me they may have ruled out family then started looking into the intruder theory. Not good and if that is the case I hope it doesn't come back to bite them you know where.

JMO

I think they may have found something that makes the intruder theory more likely. That at the beginning they really focused on the family and parallel investigation was secondary. Now they are scrambling to look at all they missed because of it.

mamamia54
10-10-2011, 09:11 AM
Does anyone have a link for a house plan for the Irwins home?

twall
10-10-2011, 09:11 AM
Young said they cleared up the lead for the man carrying the baby in the middle of the night and there was nothing to it. This was on Judge Jeanine and the segment has yet to be published on the Internet.

LE can fib to the public. Chris Coleman comes to mind. Not a suspect, not a suspect, (when it was so very obvious he was responsible for killing his children and wife) then !! BAM !! he is arrested!

PoppyH
10-10-2011, 09:12 AM
:ohwow:

As I posted once before.....there were 17 reports of UFO's in this area of Kansas City over the same time period that is in question in this case......just sayin'

:crazy:

Kimster was probably in the area looking for clue:floorlaugh:

natsound
10-10-2011, 09:12 AM
Christopher Abeyta was also kidnapped from his crib in the middle of the night. He was 7 months old. There have only been a handful of non-family abductions of infants taken from their cribs. Christopher is my brother and I slept in the next room over from him the night he was kidnapped. We did not hear a thing. My family always cooperated with LE, although I remember my Parents getting upset because they didn't think LE were doing enough. My mom failed the polygraph and once she did LE formed a myopic view and did not thoroughly investigate leads. I know firsthand when my Mom was being interrorgated they told her things like "your baby is at the bottom of the lake being eaten by vernom, just tell us what you did with him" They questioned her for hours upon hours. Ironically they didn't suspect my Dad, yet my Parents slept in the same bed and it was a waterbed! The kidnapper did not turn on any lights in our home and when she left but she did leave the front door open. We didn't have anything else missing, except we had been missing a garage door opener previously. No doubt my family was under suspicion because of the "how could you not hear anything?". "why didn't the baby wake up?" Watching Lisa's disappearance unfold brings back raw emotions and memories, and no family should ever have to endure waking up to an empty crib and the torment of "not knowing". My Parents have never given up searching for their son. We do have a suspect. Her name had been given to LE the day after my brothers disappearance and she was not investigated! It is really unbelievable. My Mom did all of the investigating on her own. Finally a review is being done of my brothers case because of my families persistance. Go to www.findchristopher.com (http://www.findchristopher.com) to compare cases.

What an incredibly sad experience. How old were you when all of this happened? God bless...

Rallihanna
10-10-2011, 09:12 AM
LE can fib to the public. Chris Coleman comes to mind. Not a suspect, not a suspect, (when it was so very obvious he was responsible for killing his children and wife) then !! BAM !! he is arrested!

I don't think LE would fib about that...

twall
10-10-2011, 09:13 AM
Does anyone have a link for a house plan for the Irwins home?

RANCH asked this last night. This was my response. It is all I have seen. HTH

MO MO - AMBER ALERT: Lisa Irwin, 10 months, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011 - #12 - Page 12 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


Also see

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - MO MO - AMBER ALERT: Lisa Irwin, 10 months, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011 - #12


http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-baby-lisa-police-stage-break-familys-home/story?id=14702680

marycarney
10-10-2011, 09:14 AM
Update on Lisa Irwin coming up this hour on Today (NBC).

ETA: Well, that was quick! Maybe it was just a headline at the top of the hour, but there wasn't much of an update. Mentioned the handy man, that the parents met with investigators over the weekend but haven't given interviews, and that DB is still married to another man because they couldn't afford a divorce.

Couldn't afford a divorce but CAN afford three cell phones? Curious.

alwayslooking
10-10-2011, 09:14 AM
I appreciate that they aren't throwing pictures of everyone mentioned to LE and the FBI out there for public scrutiny. Many lives have been completely destroyed by over-zealous detectives and parents who want to throw any and everyone under the bus, which I get, but there needs to be more to go on.

Remember Richard Ricci who ended up dead in prison? The Ramsey case had so much collateral damage I lost count in the first year.

Who said this is the first time they've handled something like this....and something like what?

IMO, LE is doing a good job.

Richard Ricci may not have kidnapped but not at all an innocent!:twocents:

SuziQ
10-10-2011, 09:14 AM
I appreciate that they aren't throwing pictures of everyone mentioned to LE and the FBI out there for public scrutiny. Many lives have been completely destroyed by over-zealous detectives and parents who want to throw any and everyone under the bus, which I get, but there needs to be more to go on.

Remember Richard Ricci who ended up dead in prison? The Ramsey case had so much collateral damage I lost count in the first year.

Who said this is the first time they've handled something like this....and something like what?

IMO, LE is doing a good job.

BBM, FWIW, Yes LE wrongly fingered Richard Ricci for Elizabeth Smart's kidnapping. But IMO, he was rightly arrested for robberies uncovered during the investigation. He was a repeat offender who previously went to prison for attempted murder of a cop. He was facing a three strikes out situation.

Elizabeth Smart kidnapping - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(snip)
Ultimately, the Salt Lake City police signaled that their prime person of interest was Richard Ricci, being held in custody for unrelated reasons. Ricci, a handyman hired by the Smarts, was on parole for a 1983 attempted murder of police officer Mike Hill. He was charged with felony burglaries of homes in the area similar in circumstances to the break-in at the Smarts. Ricci later died in jail from a Cerebral hemorrhage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia a few weeks after he refused to provide a confession to Utah corrections officers.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Smart_kidnapping#cite_note-22) With his death, it seemed that all leads were exhausted. Upon discovery of the actual kidnappers, Ricci's widow issued a statement expressing relief at Smart's safe return and her husband's innocence.

natsound
10-10-2011, 09:14 AM
Does anyone have a link for a house plan for the Irwins home?

Look at the stories regarding the Irwins on today.msnbc.com. There's a floor plan in one of their videos from either Friday or Saturday morning.

ClaireNC
10-10-2011, 09:14 AM
The GMA piece mentions a plumber being in the home 2 weeks ago.

The GMA piece used the example of "maybe a plumber" working at the house two weeks ago. They did not say that there was a plumber, just used it as an example. http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-baby-lisa-police-stage-break-familys-home/story?id=14702680

It was the Today show that reported that police were asking neighbors about a handyman who works in the area, but has not been seen since before Lisa's disappearance.


http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/44842241#44842241

raeann
10-10-2011, 09:14 AM
Kimster was probably in the area looking for clue:floorlaugh:

I asked her in that post why they do not take video surveillance on their visits....

CathyinTexas
10-10-2011, 09:16 AM
Thanks!
Would be very interesting to know where this guy lives in the neighborhood and if it is close to where that man was seen walking down the street with a baby that first night.

My thought is OMG, if he lived in the neighborhood and HE was the one carrying the baby, then he would have been seen going to his own home. The neighbor alluded to a next door neighbor. This is all so very disturbing. I wonder, if they suspect this man enough to show his pictures to neighbors, WHY would they not already have searched his home and premises for clues!

Elley Mae
10-10-2011, 09:16 AM
LE can fib to the public. Chris Coleman comes to mind. Not a suspect, not a suspect, (when it was so very obvious he was responsible for killing his children and wife) then !! BAM !! he is arrested!

Thank you for using BAM in its property context.

Ruby Slippers
10-10-2011, 09:19 AM
Former FBI agent (and others) claim it is very unusual for LE to make public statement that "patents are uncooperative." I agree with those who feel like parents are "acting" waffling, giving obtuse answers, and not very visible to media. This makes ask:

Could LE have known early on that parents are not involved and are setting up with the parents to pretend conflict and estrangement in order to pursue a corse of action that might bring to light or instill false confidence in the real abductor? That feels more plausible to me than another Susan Smith scenario.

jaeger
10-10-2011, 09:20 AM
I keep asking myself why they would have security system for the garage and not for the house? :waitasec:

Do we know that it was actually an alarm system, and not simply a code to open the garage door? We don't have an alarm, but we do have a box to open the automatic garage door from outside the house, and you have to punch in a code.

mamamia54
10-10-2011, 09:21 AM
I was able to locate this one of the floor plans as well -
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=19070&d=1317999122

SuziQ
10-10-2011, 09:23 AM
I don't think LE would fib about that...

They do all the time. It's not legally smart for LE to throw out the word suspect or POI. More and more you rarely hear LE admit they have one until there is an arrest.

CathyinTexas
10-10-2011, 09:23 AM
I will wait on this info. what if he is not from the neighborhood, and because he can't be reached, he can't be located.

In the Today video I thought they walked up to a door of a house in the parent's neighborhood and said it was the handyman's house who hasn't been since before Lisa disappeared. If so, that is very significant and disturbing.

Rallihanna
10-10-2011, 09:24 AM
I'm still stuck on the fact that the parents stopped cooperating for a time. I understand LE was making them feel like suspects, but I would like to think that LE would have reinforced that they weren't rather than have the parents walk away. So... that leads me stuck on why the parents stopped.

natsound
10-10-2011, 09:24 AM
:ohwow:

As I posted once before.....there were 17 reports of UFO's in this area of Kansas City over the same time period that is in question in this case......just sayin'

:crazy:

Well then we need to start shifting our energy in this direction. Where is the urgency?? :crazy:

OK, OK, enough fun from me for now. Not trying to make light of the situation... I know it's very serious, and I can't look into baby Lisa's eyes without my heart breaking. It's so hard, because we know that children trust adults to do right by them. Yesterday I took my 3 year old to the fair. As the ride guy got my son off the ride, my son held his hand out, thinking the guy was going to hold his hand and lead him back to me. If only all adults were to be trusted. :sigh:

ClaireNC
10-10-2011, 09:25 AM
Does anybody know if the parents have a single room air conditioner in their bedroom? If the air conditioner was on, it would help explain why the mother didn't hear anything.

TobyWong*
10-10-2011, 09:26 AM
Does anyone recall when the screams where heard? I can't even recall how close they were but I do remember screams heard somewhere close and those people did infact call 911 but nothing further. tia.

SuziQ
10-10-2011, 09:27 AM
I'm still stuck on the fact that the parents stopped cooperating for a time. I understand LE was making them feel like suspects, but I would like to think that LE would have reinforced that they weren't rather than have the parents walk away. So... that leads me stuck on why the parents stopped.

According to the parents, they never stopped.

~n/t~
10-10-2011, 09:28 AM
Our next door neighbor has the code to our home. Once we went on our weekend camping trip and he (next door neighbor) also was going to be out of town the same weekend .We gave our code to one of our son's friends who is a teenager to give fresh water to the cat each morning. I do not believe the teen has anything to do with this case. I think it may end up being some kind of break that neither mom or dad thought about and it will come from something said or done online...innocently. Someone that was monitoring their activities and wanted a baby. Even innocent things like "G'nite all...talk tomorrow, time for bed have an early day tomorrow" is a sign. Back pages of conversation such as "yay! Hubby got a job! Finally! Bummer it will be a night shift...but hey, in this economy...we don't care!".....etc. Things like that. I see just far too much being divulged online and I get especially concerned when I see parents talk about their children and post photos, etc.

Oh I agree. Social media like FB can be a perfect target for those wanting to do harm. The neighour or acquaintance who you added as a "friend" may turn out to be someone who has other intentions. Also, those who don't use the privacy settings are looking for trouble. Not saying that's the case here but people should be extra vigilant to what they post online. I've seen posts from some of my own "friends" that make me cringe.

vlpate
10-10-2011, 09:28 AM
BBM, FWIW, Yes LE wrongly fingered Richard Ricci for Elizabeth Smart's kidnapping. But IMO, he was rightly arrested for robberies uncovered during the investigation. He was a repeat offender who previously went to prison for attempted murder of a cop. He was facing a three strikes out situation.

Elizabeth Smart kidnapping - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Smart_kidnapping)

(snip)
Ultimately, the Salt Lake City police signaled that their prime person of interest was Richard Ricci, being held in custody for unrelated reasons. Ricci, a handyman hired by the Smarts, was on parole for a 1983 attempted murder of police officer Mike Hill. He was charged with felony burglaries of homes in the area similar in circumstances to the break-in at the Smarts. Ricci later died in jail from a Cerebral hemorrhage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_hemorrhage) a few weeks after he refused to provide a confession to Utah corrections officers.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Smart_kidnapping#cite_note-22) With his death, it seemed that all leads were exhausted. Upon discovery of the actual kidnappers, Ricci's widow issued a statement expressing relief at Smart's safe return and her husband's innocence.

The widow sued.

natsound
10-10-2011, 09:29 AM
Does anyone recall when the screams where heard? I can't even recall how close they were but I do remember screams heard somewhere close and those people did infact call 911 but nothing further. tia.

This is the first I've heard of this.

SuziQ
10-10-2011, 09:29 AM
Does anyone recall when the screams where heard? I can't even recall how close they were but I do remember screams heard somewhere close and those people did infact call 911 but nothing further. tia.

I need to go check the scanner thread to see if the wonderful scanner peeps have done a rewind for that night.

waltzingmatilda
10-10-2011, 09:29 AM
Peter Alexander reported from outside the family home this am during the 3rd hour of Today. He said FBI showed pics of this handyman to neighbors and told them he has a criminal history.

OT I came home from the grocery store one day (years ago when my kids were small) and a HVAC man was in my house. He came down the stairs holding a HVAC filter and scared me to Jupiter and back. He claimed he serviced all the units there and left. I was a new resident so I called my landlord and the HOA president and this guy had no such contract, nor did he have keys to all the units. I still don't know how he gained entrance. The incident was reported to LE. But still....EEK and ICK!!!

wm

andalso
10-10-2011, 09:30 AM
Does anybody know if the parents have a single room air conditioner in their bedroom? If the air conditioner was on, it would help explain why the mother didn't hear anything.

The neighbor who saw the baby at midnight, his wife said it was a chilly night so he thought it was unusual to see a baby only in a diaper. So, IMO, would have been no need for the AC to be on.

twall
10-10-2011, 09:30 AM
Gut says two people. Went to window and while at window the other checked the door and whispered..."Hey door is unlocked!" and thus efforts stopped for the window and they went in through door and exited through door.

I think the front door was locked. Mom said she does not know if she locked it or not.

JMO

SuziQ
10-10-2011, 09:32 AM
The widow sued.

Yeah and? LE settled the case as well. LE did wrongly name him the only suspect. No dispute on that. But IMO, RR was exactly where he should have been. Back in prison.

TobyWong*
10-10-2011, 09:34 AM
Former FBI agent (and others) claim it is very unusual for LE to make public statement that "patents are uncooperative." I agree with those who feel like parents are "acting" waffling, giving obtuse answers, and not very visible to media. This makes ask:

Could LE have known early on that parents are not involved and are setting up with the parents to pretend conflict and estrangement in order to pursue a corse of action that might bring to light or instill false confidence in the real abductor? That feels more plausible to me than another Susan Smith scenario.

IMO if this were the case then the parents would not have gone on air to say they were co-operating. Looks like they are not on the same page, which of course is what it is, to me. And that is, the parents had nothing further to add that would help LE finding their daughter and that LE thought they could add alot more. ??

andalso
10-10-2011, 09:36 AM
If a kidnapping, here's a bizarre thought, was the dog given something to keep him quiet (i.e. a bone or piece of meat?) and if so, would they be able to test the dogs stool to see if there was anything unusual there? Seems very far fetched, but perhaps some info could be gained from this? Perhaps not, I really have no clue.

angeleleven
10-10-2011, 09:36 AM
Fox news just said 'things are not adding up for the police'. They will go back to focusing on the parents.

alwayslooking
10-10-2011, 09:37 AM
Does anybody know if the parents have a single room air conditioner in their bedroom? If the air conditioner was on, it would help explain why the mother didn't hear anything.
Good thought, what about a TV on, I sleep very light but with a tv...you turn it off, I will jump right out of bed!