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View Full Version : MO - AMBER ALERT: Lisa Irwin, 10 months, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011 - #12



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krimekat
10-10-2011, 12:08 PM
Mother says neighbour over with child watching a movie on this video:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1208764392001/exclusive-parents-of-missing-baby-lisa-speak-out/?playlist_id=163706

link not available but thanks. I'm going to go get it! And watch . . .

norest4thewicked
10-10-2011, 12:08 PM
I guess the teenage neighbor didn't fit as the perp.....along with the list of people provided by the parents as suspects....so, the local handyman is next?

Well they do have to follow up on all leads...

Paige SC
10-10-2011, 12:09 PM
BBM I am sorry, but this one made me chuckle and my first thought was "oh Lordy, Paige has no idea of the can she just opened."

That question has been highly debated since day one on these threads.

Some find their behavior suspect, some don't. I m not sure what percentages a show of hands would reveal. But leave it at we are all pretty well split in our opinions of that.

Ok, I just listened to the parent's talking to Judge (?) on the Fox clip. Yes, I stand by my 1st impression of the dad... (=Josh Powell). So right now I say dad has something to do with this and the mother could go 50/50.. I'm not convinced she's NOt involved. My $ is on the dad until something else develops.

Gardenlady
10-10-2011, 12:10 PM
I guess the teenage neighbor didn't fit as the perp.....along with the list of people provided by the parents as suspects....so, the local handyman is next?

Has LE said he/she was ruled out, or didn't fit?

BeanE
10-10-2011, 12:10 PM
Missing Baby Lisa Irwin: Inside The Investigation
Former FBI agent Brad Garrett discusses the investigation of the missing baby.
02:18 | 10/10/2011

video from ABC - Good Morning America

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/missing-baby-lisa-irwin-inside-investigation-14703712

Shelby1
10-10-2011, 12:11 PM
Thank you, it's something worth while. I cannot believe mothers would keep children up past 9p on a school night. We need to know who saw Lisa (except Mom, Dad) last . . .

I'll watch or find a transcripts . . . BTW I hate watching video! Love read transcripts -- rarely watch unless you fine people talk about body language.

I'm not even sure I recall her saying an exact time...but, I could be wrong.

Shelby1
10-10-2011, 12:12 PM
link not available but thanks. I'm going to go get it! And watch . . .


Dang, it worked for me (I didn't watch the whole thing, just made sure it started)

elepher50
10-10-2011, 12:13 PM
link not available but thanks. I'm going to go get it! And watch . . .

Not sure why the link isn't working - I just clicked it again and it brought it up.


Justice with Judge Jeanine
Exclusive: Parents of Missing Baby Lisa Speak Out

Oct 9, 2011

- 4:08 -

Deborah Bradley and Jeremy Irwin sit down with Judge Jeanine Pirro



http://video.foxnews.com/v/1208764392001/exclusive-parents-of-missing-baby-lisa-speak-out/?playlist_id=163706

I just wrapped it in quotes in hopes it will provide easier access to it instead of hunting for it.

Soulmagent
10-10-2011, 12:13 PM
This is interesting. Okay, well, maybe just to me. :)

I just did a search on Twitter for kidnapped baby and then for abducted baby. Not a single reporter or news station tweet came up since Oct 4 & 5. In other words, the reporters and news stations are no longer referring to Lisa as kidnapped or abducted, like they were at first.

In other vaguely related news, the FBI has still not listed Lisa on its Kidnappings/abductions page:

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/kidnap/@@wanted-group-listing

They just listed Hailey Dunn last week and she has been missing a few days shy of 10 months. I am not sure we can tell alot about investigations though what police say to the media or how they list a case.

The media is a tool investigators use to put whatever investigative spin on the case that meets the needs of the investigation. IMO.

waltzingmatilda
10-10-2011, 12:15 PM
There was a live, onsight report by Peter Alexander this morning during Today's 3rd hour where he stated the handy man had a criminal background.....as opposed to ML saying he 'may' have a criminal record during the first hour.

I have looked for a link to this and cannot find one.

The original report this am (7am EST) showed Peter in front of the residence reporting this info last evening about the handyman, then Matt and CVS discussed it.

But there was a live update in the daylight this am during the 3rd hour during a news segment where PA stated this as tho it is a fact.

My apologies for any confusion this may have caused.

wm

IAM
10-10-2011, 12:15 PM
It is always wise for LE to recognize statistics of a crime. To not recognize them would be imcompetence. That beng said, they should also keep a very clear mind open for any clues that would go against statistics. I think this is what they are doing. Checking out different leads as they try to clear the parents. The parents should not be bothered be this. This is necessary. The only thing that is important is finding baby Lisa. A parent in this situation should be too traumatized to worry at what the public thinks. They should only be focused on helping to bring their baby back home. This is why although I do recognize other scenarios. I am still trying to make some sense of the information that is given. And I know LE has way more info then they are tellling the media. So, we are only getting bits and pieces, so to slueth we must do alot of reading btween the lines. This is no science. Only speculation. Only our attempt to help in some way. Help find this precious little baby.

iluvmua
10-10-2011, 12:15 PM
I'm not buying the whole intruder thing.......

first, who would take 3 cell phones? (unless they were there to rob the place and they just happened upon baby Lisa's room and decided to take her too, that's always a possibility).

How did the intruder know where baby Lisa's room was located? (unless he walked through the front door first).

surely, this child was crying when someone picked her up out of her crib....... Why was the mother not alerted to her cries?

everything just seems so odd to me......

Paige SC
10-10-2011, 12:15 PM
Did he just say BURG-U-LERS?





(http://video.foxnews.com/v/1208764392001/exclusive-parents-of-missing-baby-lisa-speak-out/?playlist_id=163706#/v/1210376899001/investigation-continues-in-case-of-missing-baby/?playlist_id=87485)

Miziree
10-10-2011, 12:16 PM
Christopher Abeyta was also kidnapped from his crib in the middle of the night. He was 7 months old. There have only been a handful of non-family abductions of infants taken from their cribs. Christopher is my brother and I slept in the next room over from him the night he was kidnapped. We did not hear a thing. My family always cooperated with LE, although I remember my Parents getting upset because they didn't think LE were doing enough. My mom failed the polygraph and once she did LE formed a myopic view and did not thoroughly investigate leads. I know firsthand when my Mom was being interrorgated they told her things like "your baby is at the bottom of the lake being eaten by vernom, just tell us what you did with him" They questioned her for hours upon hours. Ironically they didn't suspect my Dad, yet my Parents slept in the same bed and it was a waterbed! The kidnapper did not turn on any lights in our home and when she left but she did leave the front door open. We didn't have anything else missing, except we had been missing a garage door opener previously. No doubt my family was under suspicion because of the "how could you not hear anything?". "why didn't the baby wake up?" Watching Lisa's disappearance unfold brings back raw emotions and memories, and no family should ever have to endure waking up to an empty crib and the torment of "not knowing". My Parents have never given up searching for their son. We do have a suspect. Her name had been given to LE the day after my brothers disappearance and she was not investigated! It is really unbelievable. My Mom did all of the investigating on her own. Finally a review is being done of my brothers case because of my families persistance. Go to www.findchristopher.com (http://www.findchristopher.com) to compare cases.

So sorry you and your family have had to endure this :( It is almost the same as this case! I've never heard of this case before, I did find we have a link here on WS for him: CO CO - Christopher Enoch Abeyta, 7 months, Colorado Springs, 15 July 1986 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
I wonder if they had any hang up's like this also..

cluciano63
10-10-2011, 12:18 PM
LE is in a tough place...after a week they apparently have not been able to clear the immediate family or determine for sure that an abduction has taken place. As we know, if they can't clear the family, if not officially but to their own satisfaction, it does make things difficult. But I believe they are looking at all possibilities at the same time.

passionflower
10-10-2011, 12:19 PM
I am wondering why the LE used sirens and lights yesterday to the house.......to scare a perp?
I also was thinking, 2 boys in house.....I know mine were rough when playing, Could
baby Lisa have gotten hurt? Everyone thought she was ok, but she died?
Why was her son sleeping with her and a HIS ( not OUR kitty?) kitty that night?
Who was comforting who?
Would father blame her son and not his?
or
was mom about to leave dad?
and gave Lisa to someone for safe keeping til she left?
That way dad couln't get her and all back fired?
My brain is in overtime, sorry if I am o/t.
IMO, something happened to Lisa and it looks like a cover up to me.
I pray she is safe.
Now with looking at the handyman, this reminds me of the A/C guy in Haleigh Cummings case.JMOO

Duke Fan4
10-10-2011, 12:21 PM
The baby bottle and diapers a great thought.

Perhaps the teen mows their lawn the reason he has access to the garage.

matou
10-10-2011, 12:21 PM
Hi everyone. Handyman??? Can someone explain? I haven't heard of this yet.

SarahW
10-10-2011, 12:22 PM
It is always wise for LE to recognize statistics of a crime. To not recognize them would be imcompetence. That beng said, they should also keep a very clear mind open for any clues that would go against statistics. I think this is what they are doing. Checking out different leads as they try to clear the parents. The parents should not be bothered be this. This is necessary. The only thing that is important is finding baby Lisa. A parent in this situation should be too traumatized to worry at what the public thinks. They should only be focused on helping to bring their baby back home. This is why although I do recognize other scenarios. I am still trying to make some sense of the information that is given. And I know LE has way more info then they are tellling the media. So, we are only getting bits and pieces, so to slueth we must do alot of reading btween the lines. This is no science. Only speculation. Only our attempt to help in some way. Help find this precious little baby.

I'm not sure how fruitful it would be to go into a discussion of an academic discussion of what statistics are useful for - but they NEVER determine the facts of an individual case. They may help quide procedure but they don't determine the truth.

justbeachy
10-10-2011, 12:22 PM
UGH!!! If this ends up being another case with no answers, I might lose my mind!!! Where are you, sweet Lisa??? Talk to us, baby girl!

krimekat
10-10-2011, 12:22 PM
Christopher Abeyta was also kidnapped from his crib in the middle of the night. He was 7 months old. There have only been a handful of non-family abductions of infants taken from their cribs. Christopher is my brother and I slept in the next room over from him the night he was kidnapped. We did not hear a thing. My family always cooperated with LE, although I remember my Parents getting upset because they didn't think LE were doing enough. My mom failed the polygraph and once she did LE formed a myopic view and did not thoroughly investigate leads. I know firsthand when my Mom was being interrorgated they told her things like "your baby is at the bottom of the lake being eaten by vernom, just tell us what you did with him" They questioned her for hours upon hours. Ironically they didn't suspect my Dad, yet my Parents slept in the same bed and it was a waterbed! The kidnapper did not turn on any lights in our home and when she left but she did leave the front door open. We didn't have anything else missing, except we had been missing a garage door opener previously. No doubt my family was under suspicion because of the "how could you not hear anything?". "why didn't the baby wake up?" Watching Lisa's disappearance unfold brings back raw emotions and memories, and no family should ever have to endure waking up to an empty crib and the torment of "not knowing". My Parents have never given up searching for their son. We do have a suspect. Her name had been given to LE the day after my brothers disappearance and she was not investigated! It is really unbelievable. My Mom did all of the investigating on her own. Finally a review is being done of my brothers case because of my families persistance. Go to www.findchristopher.com (http://www.findchristopher.com) to compare cases.

OMG - sorry for your & your family's loss! Going to your site . . .

jadejazzkayla
10-10-2011, 12:22 PM
Well, statistics will always lean to who has most access to the baby. Parents are statistically the culprits. But, there are always exceptions to everything.

agree.

If I were playing the odds and betting who is responsible for lisa's disappearance, i would take the 9 to 1 odds (or whatever they are) and bet on the 9 to win. but, I am not here to gamble on if i can guess who is responsible. I am here to look at FACTS as I see them. I have no time or desire to look at the odds and guess whodunit.

cluciano63
10-10-2011, 12:23 PM
Hi everyone. Handyman??? Can someone explain? I haven't heard of this yet.

Apparently on one of the morning shows, they talked about a man who LE was asking about, who had not been seen around since before Lisa went missing...

AlexLouise44
10-10-2011, 12:23 PM
But how would this person obtain paperwork to show that the child is legally theirs if they were to claim the child was adopted?

I've never done this before, but I know there is a "black market" for fake passports, social security and even birth certificates. It could be possible that the perp had this all set up. I don't know how they do it. We have a friend who insists his passport was bought on the black market because he is an illegal - not sure how true it is because it's look VERY realistic.

elepher50
10-10-2011, 12:23 PM
Judge Jeanie video now in siggy line below - seems to answer some of the questions that have been bandied about. Well, may answer some of the questions - depends on interpretation of course.

GourmetSoy
10-10-2011, 12:24 PM
FYI, the Aisenberg case is on the ID channel right now

Wishbone
10-10-2011, 12:24 PM
I'm not buying the whole intruder thing.......

first, who would take 3 cell phones? (unless they were there to rob the place and they just happened upon baby Lisa's room and decided to take her too, that's always a possibility).

How did the intruder know where baby Lisa's room was located? (unless he walked through the front door first).

surely, this child was crying when someone picked her up out of her crib....... Why was the mother not alerted to her cries?

everything just seems so odd to me......


In the JJ interview video the mother says they almost never leave windows open then goes on to say she left the computer room window open and when JI saw it he knew something was wrong? Why did she leave the window open, she didn't say she forgot to close it....None of what she says makes the least bit sense........

Paige SC
10-10-2011, 12:25 PM
UGH!!! If this ends up being another case with no answers, I might lose my mind!!! Where are you, sweet Lisa??? Talk to us, baby girl!

I know. Something about this case reminds me of Sabrina Aisenberg. I hope this isn't the path we are headed down...

BeanE
10-10-2011, 12:26 PM
Heycameraman HC
Not alot of activity at #LisaIrwin home. bit.ly/oMWTh3
25 seconds ago

jacy
10-10-2011, 12:26 PM
I hope that it is affiliated with the family and not someone capitalizing on little Lisa. Her family does not appear to be rich and I see no problem with trying to raise money for a reward. I'm just surprised that no organization has come forward with a reward. Lamar Signs has put up billboards along highways when there is a missing person. I just want to see that sweet baby face with those blue eyes all over the place. If this means individuals donating money/goods/services then so be it.

My first impression of the page was that I was being yelled at before I said anything. It's immature to stir the pot (i.e., You don't want to donate? DON'T!) and a little offputting. My second impression was that the page gives me no idea where my money would actually land.

passionflower
10-10-2011, 12:26 PM
Denvals, I am so sorry for your loss & nightmare life.
I see you mention "her', think it was a female who kidnapped your brother?
Let's pray she needed a baby for LOVE and he had a happy life. Pray you will find him someday alive and well.
This could be the case with baby Lisa, some womn that wanted a baby so bad and couldn't have one of her own.
Pray that baby Lisa is safe!

In da Middle
10-10-2011, 12:27 PM
Does anyone know what time elementary gets out around there? I wonder if the boys are picked up or take the bus. And then further, if anyone saw Lisa around the time the boys got out/home. It is unreal that not one person has come out and said "i saw Lisa @ 5 pm that day."
Unless I missed the last known sighting of this baby. I know she was at a party Sunday. Then nothing


eta: I am so not sleuthing these poor boys. Just looking into what mom & Lisa could be doing w/ their time.
And we know nobody has said this how? Again, just because it hasn't been reported, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I personally know of several things around here that I have personally witnessed that are not being reported on. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, though.

BeanE
10-10-2011, 12:27 PM
Experts: Media biased in missing kids coverage - CBS News

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/10/earlyshow/living/parenting/main20118068.shtml

krimekat
10-10-2011, 12:28 PM
In the JJ interview video the mother says they almost never leave windows open then goes on to say she left the computer room window open and when JI saw it he knew something was wrong? Why did she leave the window open, she didn't say she forgot to close it....None of what she says makes the least bit sense........

Smoker?

eve
10-10-2011, 12:28 PM
I see your point but there has to be a limit somewhere on how long an interview can last. Or on repeated interviews.

There is not. In addition, false confessions are associated with long interrogations (average 16+ hours in one study of false confessions). Interrogations are now recorded in some states by law (two I know of are MN and IL), but generally, LE has very wide latitude until person being questioned lawyers up. Miranda doesn't apply until one is in custody either, i.e. not free to leave /arrested.

Eve

Miziree
10-10-2011, 12:28 PM
In the JJ interview video the mother says they almost never leave windows open then goes on to say she left the computer room window open and when JI saw it he knew something was wrong? Why did she leave the window open, she didn't say she forgot to close it....None of what she says makes the least bit sense........

Maybe it was hot in the house that day. She did say in the video that she from time to time leaves a window open in the summer..She looked like she felt REALLY bad for leaving that window open. Right after that the day was very sweet and held her, kissed her head and looked emotional himself....IMO

elepher50
10-10-2011, 12:29 PM
Heycameraman HC
Not alot of activity at #LisaIrwin home. bit.ly/oMWTh3
25 seconds ago

OMG - what are they looking for now. This case has driven me batty! If they bring out those metal detectors again ......(sigh).

Thanks for the tweets btw.
ETA: Misread = NOT a lot of activity ........ yikes that is worse than bringing out the metal detectors again

BeanE
10-10-2011, 12:29 PM
EricKCTV5 Eric Chaloux
TIPS Hotline says about 1,000 phone calls on #LisaIrwin case. A couple hundred have turned into tips. Calls as far as Hawaii.
28 seconds ago

Jacie Estes
10-10-2011, 12:31 PM
My first impression of the page was that I was being yelled at before I said anything. It's immature to stir the pot (i.e., You don't want to donate? DON'T!) and a little offputting. My second impression was that the page gives me no idea where my money would actually land.

BBM

That's why I'm hoping that it is legit.

Wishbone
10-10-2011, 12:31 PM
Smoker?



Still doesn't explain leaving the window open and knowing it when they almost never do that. Add to that when JI comes home just seeing the window open makes him think something is wrong........

curiositycat
10-10-2011, 12:32 PM
My first impression of the page was that I was being yelled at before I said anything. It's immature to stir the pot (i.e., You don't want to donate? DON'T!) and a little offputting. My second impression was that the page gives me no idea where my money would actually land.
Just for grins I went there last night, and clicked on comments. People were being brutally frank concerning their impressions of the parents involvement. If it is the families fb page I can see where they wouldn't want those comments, that are hurtful to the family. It was full of rumors and little snide remarks.

Another thing, last night I found 3 different FB pages pertaining to baby Lisa. I wasn't sure which was the real deal and which wasn't.

If I was a person that would donate to those causes, I would be very, very careful that I wasn't giving to someone taking advantage of someone's tragedy. JMOO

Gardenlady
10-10-2011, 12:33 PM
Saw one tweet about LE now searching river, but can't find any details elsewhere. Any locals able to verify?

Wishbone
10-10-2011, 12:34 PM
Maybe it was hot in the house that day. She did say in the video that she from time to time leaves a window open in the summer..She looked like she felt REALLY bad for leaving that window open. Right after that the day was very sweet and held her, kissed her head and looked emotional himself....IMO



Like I said before, I'm most likely jaded at this point, but I just don't believe a lot of what she is saying.........

davehead21
10-10-2011, 12:35 PM
I'm not buying the whole intruder thing.......

first, who would take 3 cell phones? (unless they were there to rob the place and they just happened upon baby Lisa's room and decided to take her too, that's always a possibility).

How did the intruder know where baby Lisa's room was located? (unless he walked through the front door first).

surely, this child was crying when someone picked her up out of her crib....... Why was the mother not alerted to her cries?

everything just seems so odd to me......

If the intruder was someone known to the family and had been in the home before, he/she would have known where Lisa's room is and Lisa may have been familiar with him/her and may not have cried.

passionflower
10-10-2011, 12:35 PM
Is there any layout of the house?
Where is the computer room?
The house doesn't look very big?
About the size of a double wide trailer?
25 x 50 maybe?

pinkfly
10-10-2011, 12:35 PM
I am thankful that Baby Lisa has stayed in the news. I get so frustrated when missing children are forgotten so soon. As agonizing as the unsolved ones are to me I cannot even imagine spending a whole life wondering about a missing loved one.

BeanE
10-10-2011, 12:37 PM
Saw one tweet about LE now searching river, but can't find any details elsewhere. Any locals able to verify?

I can't find the tweet. Can you link it please?

TIA

ETA: Is this it from last night?

SandraKCTV5 Sandra Olivas
twitpic.com/6xurzz We were there as police searched near Kansas river in the baby Lisa disappearance case. More at 10 on kctv5
19 hours ago

TobyWong*
10-10-2011, 12:37 PM
In the JJ interview video the mother says they almost never leave windows open then goes on to say she left the computer room window open and when JI saw it he knew something was wrong? Why did she leave the window open, she didn't say she forgot to close it....None of what she says makes the least bit sense........

Then why o'why does LE have to waste their time re-enacting the scene yesterday? IMO LE was told first thing that , that window was point of entry. They were dusting that window right away. And mom says she left it open. And if mom opened it, then when inthis sequence would dad look at it & "know" something was wrong? And did he see this window when he pulled up and knew or was it after they realized their daughter was gone, cause afterward, I'd think mom would say "i opened that".

hb2008
10-10-2011, 12:38 PM
KANSAS CITY, Mo. - Police have not released any information about a potential suspect in the disappearance of 10-month-old Lisa Irwin, but a neighbor says investigators have questioned him about a man who has been seen riding his bike in the neighborhood.

The neighbor says authorities brought a picture of a man to his door and asked him if he had seen him.

He told police that he had seen the man, who he described as in his 20s, riding a bike and carrying a backpack.

More of the article (http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_missouri/northland/no-sign-of-lisa-irwin-7-days-into-search)

Shelby1
10-10-2011, 12:40 PM
Is there any layout of the house?
Where is the computer room?
The house doesn't look very big?
About the size of a double wide trailer?
25 x 50 maybe?


See my timeline in my signature for layout picture.

EllaMae
10-10-2011, 12:40 PM
Saw one tweet about LE now searching river, but can't find any details elsewhere. Any locals able to verify?

Ugh! I keep wanting to be hopeful, but that river is there, and it's always a possibility that the baby is in the water. I know they need to search it....

BeanE
10-10-2011, 12:41 PM
Police: 'At the mercy of the next good idea'
Posted: Oct 10, 2011 7:42 AM EDT
Updated: Oct 10, 2011 11:48 AM EDT

And police are struggling to find any answers.

Kansas City police spokesman Steve Young told The Associated Press Monday that detectives are pursuing leads but are "at the mercy of the next good idea."

"Detectives are still tracking leads as we speak," said Young.

According to police, detectives were leaving in pairs from the command post Monday morning to track down information that had come in over the weekend.

http://www.kctv5.com/story/15655082/hope-does-not-fade-in-search-for-baby-lisa

curiositycat
10-10-2011, 12:41 PM
Is there any layout of the house?
Where is the computer room?
The house doesn't look very big?
About the size of a double wide trailer?
25 x 50 maybe?

The house is bigger then it looks at first glance. Last night someone had a link, to the property records. Though it looks small from the front, someone had a picture of the back of the house. (Sorry, I have no link) and there is a full second story basement, with a double car garage. There is also another building on the property that looks like another 2 car garage or workshop.

The property records list four bedrooms. I think what they refer to as the "computer room" might be the "4th bedroom"

MaciBean
10-10-2011, 12:42 PM
Smoker?

You have to remember it's been warm during the day and cooler at night.

Paige SC
10-10-2011, 12:42 PM
What do we know about the parents and their socio-economic status? What do they do for a living? How long have they been together, etc? Any prior criminal history or drug use?

justbeachy
10-10-2011, 12:42 PM
Cases like this always seem to have multiple tragedies. Not only the missing child and the loved ones of the child, but also the people who are brought into it as suspects and are actually innocent.

I'm glad that LE seems to be checking out every lead (i.e., California, teenager, handyman, parents), but I'm also very thankful that they are not releasing any names. This could ruin a person's reputation and they might not have anything to do with it at all! The parents almost don't have a choice...they are going to be looked at. But, this handyman and that teenager, they could have nothing at all to do with it!

And once a name is out there (and sometimes even when it isn't but the community "knows" who it is), they remain under a cloud of suspicion unless they can prove 100% that they weren't involved.

Anyway, I'm very pleased that LE is keeping tight-lipped about names until they have solid cause to release them.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 12:43 PM
Kansas City police spokesman Steve Young told The Associated Press Monday that detectives are pursuing leads but are "at the mercy of the next good idea."

http://www.kctv5.com/story/15655082/hope-does-not-fade-in-search-for-baby-lisa
snippity-snip

Hm. Interesting way of putting that.

BeanE
10-10-2011, 12:43 PM
Same article I linked above:

At the same time, police were called to Edwardsville, KS on a tip.

Detectives searched the wooded area where it went into the Kansas River.

Police said they received information that it is where baby Lisa's father had a job recently; they left empty-handed.

iamnotagolem
10-10-2011, 12:43 PM
I'm not saying a stranger kidnapping with the intent to sell on the black market is outside the realm of possibilities, but what are the chances that

- dad starts the night shift
- mom forgets to lock the doors
-the dog doesn't bark
- no one wakes up

Then it begs the question, why Lisa? You can't convince me she was the easiest target. I read on BBC all the time about parents running in to pay for gas, running in to buy cupcakes, just running into the store for a minute for whatever, I guarantee you it'd be much easier to walk through a parking lot at target, walmart, grocery store, gas station and snatch a baby and be long gone before the parents notice.

If she was abducted by a highly trained black market baby stealing ring, then where are all the other blond/blue babies that are so highly desired?

If someone is trying to pass of a very large 10 month old (most people would probably guess her age closer to 18 months) for a new adoption and the adoptees don't know she was stolen and don't care that she's not an infant, then why not adopt out of the foster system? If you are willing to adopt a baby that isn't a newborn, then there are plenty of easier options out there than hooking up w/some shady adoption agency that is selling stolen babies. Right?

Maybe I'm just very naive as far as black market babies go.

Elley Mae
10-10-2011, 12:43 PM
I too want to know exactly how the Dad (jeremy) found the house, step by step. Did you first note that the door was not locked, then look and see the screen (?) ajar, messed, broke, bent, on the ground, on the floor of the house, just exactly what did he come home too, and what did he do first,second third and so on. and not told randomly.

BeanE
10-10-2011, 12:44 PM
NBCActionNews NBC Action News
#LisaIrwin's neighbor says he was questioned about, shown picture of man he thought was suspicious pub.vitrue.com/nQ4
7 minutes ago

http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_missouri/northland/no-sign-of-lisa-irwin-7-days-into-search

TobyWong*
10-10-2011, 12:44 PM
And we know nobody has said this how? Again, just because it hasn't been reported, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I personally know of several things around here that I have personally witnessed that are not being reported on. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, though.

True that. I'l re-phrase. I would like to have more info re: their movements that day. I would also like them to be printed in MSM.

curiositycat
10-10-2011, 12:44 PM
Police: 'At the mercy of the next good idea'
Posted: Oct 10, 2011 7:42 AM EDT
Updated: Oct 10, 2011 11:48 AM EDT

And police are struggling to find any answers.

Kansas City police spokesman Steve Young told The Associated Press Monday that detectives are pursuing leads but are "at the mercy of the next good idea."

"Detectives are still tracking leads as we speak," said Young.

According to police, detectives were leaving in pairs from the command post Monday morning to track down information that had come in over the weekend.

http://www.kctv5.com/story/15655082/hope-does-not-fade-in-search-for-baby-lisa

Thanks guess we know why they were searching in KS last night. From that article you linked;
"At the same time, police were called to Edwardsville, KS on a tip.
Detectives searched the wooded area where it went into the Kansas River.
Police said they received information that it is where baby Lisa's father had a job recently; they left empty-handed."

MaciBean
10-10-2011, 12:44 PM
What do we know about the parents and their socio-economic status? What do they do for a living? How long have they been together, etc? Any prior criminal history or drug use?

Looked on Missouri and surrounding states and didn't see anything criminal for either parent.

BeanE
10-10-2011, 12:45 PM
Police have not released any information about a potential suspect in the disappearance of 10-month-old Lisa Irwin, but a neighbor says investigators have questioned him about a man who has been seen riding his bike in the neighborhood.

The neighbor says authorities brought a picture of a man to his door and asked him if he had seen him.

He told police that he had seen the man, who he described as in his 20s, riding a bike and carrying a backpack.

The neighbor, who has lived in the neighborhood for 40 years and says he knows all of its residents, says he is sure the man does not live close by and was suspicious of the man even before Lisa disappeared.

http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_missouri/northland/no-sign-of-lisa-irwin-7-days-into-search#ixzz1aOkLHeOy

Also see video with article

Wishbone
10-10-2011, 12:47 PM
Then why o'why does LE have to waste their time re-enacting the scene yesterday? IMO LE was told first thing that , that window was point of entry. They were dusting that window right away. And mom says she left it open. And if mom opened it, then when inthis sequence would dad look at it & "know" something was wrong? And did he see this window when he pulled up and knew or was it after they realized their daughter was gone, cause afterward, I'd think mom would say "i opened that".



They both agreed on the JJ interview that they didn't think the kidnapper? came in thru the window....Nothing makes sense

vasportsmom
10-10-2011, 12:51 PM
Smoker?

Didn't a local say the parents were often out in the front yard with the kids smoking? Maybe mom wasn't as careful with dad out of the house or maybe it was after the kids went to bed and she didn't want to leave them unattended so she went to that room to smoke and forgot to close the window?

HatesSociopaths
10-10-2011, 12:51 PM
I too want to know exactly how the Dad (jeremy) found the house, step by step. Did you first note that the door was not locked, then look and see the screen (?) ajar, messed, broke, bent, on the ground, on the floor of the house, just exactly what did he come home too, and what did he do first,second third and so on. and not told randomly.

Hi Elley, you might find this video with Judge J helpful:


http://video.foxnews.com/v/1208764392001/exclusive-parents-of-missing-baby-lisa-speak-out/?playlist_id=163706


Here is what I find notable about the video:
At :55
JJ: but that night, who went to bed first? DB: Lisa (cries) then I put the boys to bed. And then I went to sleep.
JJ: The neighbor was gone when you went to sleep? DB: Yeah JJ: Ok, and you think that was about 10:30? DB: Yeah

I am probably being a bit biased as I already suspect her involvement, so forgive me for being so suspicious of how she answered this, but I found her crying at that moment to be deflective of discussing when she put Lisa to bed. She was quick to leave the Lisa topic once the brief crying was over.

I also find her crying to have a remarkably fast recovery at about 1:50.

Regarding JI, he appears to be sweating and his pupils are dilated, indicating fear. MOO.

curiositycat
10-10-2011, 12:52 PM
What do we know about the parents and their socio-economic status? What do they do for a living? How long have they been together, etc? Any prior criminal history or drug use?

The dad, JI, is only 29, I think that's what I remember, and he has owned that home for 9 years. He is the only person on the deed in the property records. To me, in this day and age, that looks pretty stable.

I don't know a lot of people who were able to buy a home at that young age.

cluciano63
10-10-2011, 12:53 PM
The "handyman" may be a person that someone called in a tip about and LE followed up, as they should. No way to know if there is more there, or not. At least LE seems to be looking at various alternatives. What is scary as per today, Young's comment really makes it seem like they are at the same place they were a week ago; no real idea what happened.

Why doesn't the FBI issue a reward, post Lisa's picture on their site, send out some sort of worldwide BOLO? I know they posted a reward in Celina's case fairly quickly. If this is a case of kidnapping and possible underground adoption or baby selling, there might be a link in the chain interested in claiming a reward...selling t-shirts isn't going to add up to much of a reward, JMO.

I also don't really understand the negative comments about LE; I am not seeing anything better or worse about this LE than in many other cases. For example, Kyron's case, MCSO seems to have been chasing their tail for 16+ months and I've seen very few negative comments about their skills, motives, etc...I think LE is trying to do everything they can in this case, but sometimes there just isn't much to work with. FBI should be more vocal, maybe, if local LE is not coming across as effective...JMO

alwayslooking
10-10-2011, 12:57 PM
I know infant molestation is rare, but it took less then 10 sec to find this one on the net!

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/06/15/1707131/bellingham-police-arrest-man-for.html

BeanE
10-10-2011, 12:57 PM
FoxNewsInsider FoxNewsInsider
New Photos Released of Missing Missouri Baby Lisa Irwin soc.li/mVV3YY #lisairwin #missouri #baby #missing
3 minutes ago

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2011/10/10/new-photos-released-of-missing-missouri-baby-lisa-irwin/

andalso
10-10-2011, 12:59 PM
Ok...so what are the "next good ideas"
here's mine, but it's likely too late (and I mentioned before but don't think anyone responded)
Find out what that dog ate on the night in question...isn't there a way to do that? There had to be a reason that dog didn't bark, and let's say you found that the dog ingested a particular type of steak or meat, then find where that meat is sold....continue from there.
Ok...so it might not be a GOOD idea, but it's an idea. Anyone else think this could lead somewhere or I am totally crazy! TIA

vasportsmom
10-10-2011, 12:59 PM
Police have not released any information about a potential suspect in the disappearance of 10-month-old Lisa Irwin, but a neighbor says investigators have questioned him about a man who has been seen riding his bike in the neighborhood.

The neighbor says authorities brought a picture of a man to his door and asked him if he had seen him.

He told police that he had seen the man, who he described as in his 20s, riding a bike and carrying a backpack.

The neighbor, who has lived in the neighborhood for 40 years and says he knows all of its residents, says he is sure the man does not live close by and was suspicious of the man even before Lisa disappeared.

http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_missouri/northland/no-sign-of-lisa-irwin-7-days-into-search#ixzz1aOkLHeOy

Also see video with article

Oh no, this really is worst case scenerio. If Lisa was taken by someone I have remained hopeful that it was a woman that wanted a baby of her own. I just can't see a young male wanting a female infant for anything good. Please let me be wrong.

Dr.Fessel
10-10-2011, 01:03 PM
Police: 'At the mercy of the next good idea'
Posted: Oct 10, 2011 7:42 AM EDT
Updated: Oct 10, 2011 11:48 AM EDT

And police are struggling to find any answers.

Kansas City police spokesman Steve Young told The Associated Press Monday that detectives are pursuing leads but are "at the mercy of the next good idea."

"Detectives are still tracking leads as we speak," said Young.

According to police, detectives were leaving in pairs from the command post Monday morning to track down information that had come in over the weekend.

http://www.kctv5.com/story/15655082/hope-does-not-fade-in-search-for-baby-lisa

Kansas City police spokesman Steve Young told The Associated Press Monday that detectives are pursuing leads but are "at the mercy of the next good idea."


This statement has been made over and over and over in this case by Young.

I really think it means they believe the perp called in a tip early in the and they found something because of it and they want that person to call back and tell them something more.

Police don't normally want you to call in thoughts or ideas or suggestions. They want tips.

BeanE
10-10-2011, 01:04 PM
The Associated Press: Police back at home of Kansas City missing baby

. An officer was back at the house early Monday for about 10 minutes, walking around to the rear.

He did not speak to the media, and police haven't commented on any aspect of the investigation.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i-yMOJVDK1sZVWTfGdBBqPn-uvcQ?docId%3Dd5d370efee214f1880be1f4ab959177f

keeponsearching
10-10-2011, 01:04 PM
yesterday I watched the interview with reporters that the mom and dad did. They said they were not sure if anything else was stolen and did not care if it was. Just want Lisa back. Now I wonder if anything else is missing. This could of just been a robbery that decided to abduct a baby. Which has happen before. Now if there is some stuff missing, putting it in the news could really help.

grandmaj
10-10-2011, 01:05 PM
My darling peeps. Please only post tweets from news sources. Thanks. These threads would be full of possible rumors and problems we don't need with random person tweets.

xoxoxoxoxo

I just want to say how wonderful these threads have been going of late and want to THANK YOU!

Now back to werk for me. :whip: Behave yourselves! wink

LancelotLink
10-10-2011, 01:06 PM
Do we know if LE has taken the computer?

RANCH
10-10-2011, 01:07 PM
Is there any layout of the house?
Where is the computer room?
The house doesn't look very big?
About the size of a double wide trailer?
25 x 50 maybe?

This is the only one I have seen so far.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=19070&d=1317999122

LandAuxvasse
10-10-2011, 01:08 PM
Kansas City police spokesman Steve Young told The Associated Press Monday that detectives are pursuing leads but are "at the mercy of the next good idea."


This statement has been made over and over and over in this case by Young.

I really think it means they believe the perp called in a tip early in the and they found something because of it and they want that person to call back and tell them something more.

Police don't normally want you to call in thoughts or ideas or suggestions. They want tips.

I thought that earlier they didn't want people to call in because anything you could think of they've already thought it three times???

MOO :twocents:

Gardenlady
10-10-2011, 01:08 PM
Woops, that'd be me then :D. Sorry bout that, was hoping to just see if our local could pop her head out the window and verify or not!

How about this - locals, do you see any searches going on today? Especially by the river?

keeponsearching
10-10-2011, 01:09 PM
I have been in a emotional situation where I every time I would try to talk about the issue I would start crying, but would stop to listen to someone else. JMO

neesaki
10-10-2011, 01:10 PM
Here is the Today video that mentions the Handyman. let me know if the link doesn't work.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/44842241#44842241

I hope and pray this is a solid lead, I so do not want to believe the father had anything to do with this baby's disappearance.

cachmo
10-10-2011, 01:10 PM
The Associated Press: Police back at home of Kansas City missing baby

. An officer was back at the house early Monday for about 10 minutes, walking around to the rear.

He did not speak to the media, and police haven't commented on any aspect of the investigation.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i-yMOJVDK1sZVWTfGdBBqPn-uvcQ?docId%3Dd5d370efee214f1880be1f4ab959177f

What is in the back yard? There had to have been a tip , a ping something that keeps bringing them back there. Ugghhhh

Gardenlady
10-10-2011, 01:10 PM
I really think, as they kept telling us in their earlier pressers, that they truly have nothing, no leads. Which is probably why they leaned on the parents so hard.

Really does seem like we rare back at square one, unless these new bits about the teen, the handyman, and bike man lead to something.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 01:10 PM
Kansas City police spokesman Steve Young told The Associated Press Monday that detectives are pursuing leads but are "at the mercy of the next good idea."


This statement has been made over and over and over in this case by Young.

I really think it means they believe the perp called in a tip early in the and they found something because of it and they want that person to call back and tell them something more.

Police don't normally want you to call in thoughts or ideas or suggestions. They want tips.
To me it sounded more like abject frustration with certain higher-ups who want this case solved yesterday and perhaps keep the rank and file jumping with "ideas" for them to check out, all the while ratcheting up the pressure. Would be rare to hear a department spokesperson speak that way even if that's the case, true, but this is a rare case, with much pressure anyway.

Dr.Fessel
10-10-2011, 01:12 PM
I thought that earlier they didn't want people to call in because anything you could think of they've already thought it three times???

MOO :twocents: I think if you go back and look at the statement you are talking about you could really interpret it as a dare for the person to call in.

Now looking at this again: "at the mercy of the next good idea." That suggest they had a something good called in at least once and want it done again.

vasportsmom
10-10-2011, 01:12 PM
Do we know if LE has taken the computer?

I don't think we know much of anything. We have no idea on the timeline that evening (other than bedtimes), we haven't heard about the last sighting of Lisa outside of Mom nor do we have any clue what all was removed from the house as evidence. For that matter I don't think it has ever been confirmed that there was a computer in the "computer room". We seem to be working with nothing to very little.

BeanE
10-10-2011, 01:13 PM
Woops, that'd be me then :D. Sorry bout that, was hoping to just see if our local could pop her head out the window and verify or not!

How about this - locals, do you see any searches going on today? Especially by the river?

The river search was yesterday. I posted a reporter tweet and a news article snip about it within the past hour or so. It was because LE got info that the area is where Dad had worked.

elepher50
10-10-2011, 01:14 PM
Do we know if LE has taken the computer?

No we do not know if the computer was taken. There have been no reports in MSM that the computer (desktop and/or laptop) have been removed from the home.

dog.gone.cute
10-10-2011, 01:14 PM
I'm not buying the whole intruder thing.......

first, who would take 3 cell phones? (unless they were there to rob the place and they just happened upon baby Lisa's room and decided to take her too, that's always a possibility).

How did the intruder know where baby Lisa's room was located? (unless he walked through the front door first).

surely, this child was crying when someone picked her up out of her crib....... Why was the mother not alerted to her cries?

everything just seems so odd to me......


MOO ...

BBM: I'm not buying it either ...

Here's what an "intruder" would have to overcome to get Baby out with NO ONE hearing or seeing anything :

1. Open the screen / window without any noise that would wake up someone in the house, or maybe even a neighbor could hear.
2. Open the screen / window without any neighbors or passers-by seeing intruder open the screen / window while "breaking" into house.
3. Lights -- did intruder need more light to see, was there enough light for intruder ?
4. While in the house ... NOT be heard by the Mother or anyone else in the house.
5. While in the house ... NOT be heard by the Dog - even if dog is in yard -- dogs "sense" "danger" !
6. Keep a 10 month old Baby QUIET, so baby's cries do not wake up anyone else in house.
7. Walk through house from Baby's room ... see what intruder can "steal" ... "steal" the 3 cell phones sitting on the counter... and hope these 3 cell phones do NOT ring.
8. Unlock front door and make sure that while unlocking the front door, it does not wake someone in house up.
9. Exit house and make sure no one in house sees or hears intruder leaving.
10. Exit house and make sure none of the neighbors or passers-by see intruder leaving with Baby ...

Now ... the intruder could have taken the phones first, then baby ... either way, intruder has a lot of to do without being seen or heard ...

IMO ... if an "intruder" just kidnapped Baby Lisa, and did not take 3 cell phones ... maybe ...

I'm still stuck on the 3 cell phones ... and particularly, Baby Lisa NOT CRYING if she was taken by an "intruder".

MOO ...

RANCH
10-10-2011, 01:14 PM
Interesting story about internet sleuthing and statement analysis on this case.

http://news.yahoo.com/missing-baby-lisa-irwins-parents-statements-picked-apart-201100839.html

panthera
10-10-2011, 01:19 PM
This is the only one I have seen so far.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=19070&d=1317999122

It almost looks like Lisa's room is supposed to be a bathroom (it is so small), and speaking of which where are the bathroom(s)?? Curious only since children have a habit of getting up during the night; another thing that could have gotten the intruder caught.

:waitasec:

elepher50
10-10-2011, 01:19 PM
What is in the back yard? There had to have been a tip , a ping something that keeps bringing them back there. Ugghhhh

Don't know and it is frustrating that they are not offerring any clues what they are looking for. Examples they could be looking for: a key, earring, nose ring, metal zipper, parts of a cell phone, weapon like a knife, basically anything that a metal detector would pick up and alert on. Whatever it is imo it would have to be small as they haven't found it with their eyes alone. I am tending to think something more than just the cell phones were taken from the house.

Dr.Fessel
10-10-2011, 01:21 PM
Interesting story about internet sleuthing and statement analysis on this case.

http://news.yahoo.com/missing-baby-lisa-irwins-parents-statements-picked-apart-201100839.html

That article should be stamped with a big ole For Entertainment Purposes Only like the blogs of these people are.

Gardenlady
10-10-2011, 01:22 PM
The river search was yesterday. I posted a reporter tweet and a news article snip about it within the past hour or so. It was because LE got info that the area is where Dad had worked.

Thanks, I saw that BeanE. It sounded to me like they searched a wooded area that led up to the river, not the river itself. Was hoping an actual search of the river itself was taking place; though I imagine with the size of the river, that would be quite an undertaking. Trying to find a little 10 month old, which I don't even like to think about... Must be like the proverbial needle and haystack. :(

Hate thinking about it, but like others have said, the river being so close is hard to ignore.

daisy7
10-10-2011, 01:23 PM
More of the article (http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_missouri/northland/no-sign-of-lisa-irwin-7-days-into-search)

Is the bike riding guy different from the handyman?

Gardenlady
10-10-2011, 01:24 PM
Kmbc live wire reporting that LE came out in response to neighbors complaints about media.

http://livewire.kmbc.com/Event/Live_Blog_Amber_Alert_Issued_For_Missing_10-Month-Old

vasportsmom
10-10-2011, 01:25 PM
MOO ...

BBM: I'm not buying it either ...

Here's what an "intruder" would have to overcome to get Baby out with NO ONE hearing or seeing anything :

6. Keep a 10 month old Baby QUIET, so baby's cries do not wake up anyone else in house.
7. Walk through house from Baby's room ... see what intruder can "steal" ... "steal" the 3 cell phones sitting on the counter... and hope these 3 cell phones do NOT ring.


I'm still stuck on the 3 cell phones ... and particularly, Baby Lisa NOT CRYING if she was taken by an "intruder".

MOO ...

Snipped by me.

Okay, you are making a lot of sense in this post and I don't like it (I'm trying so hard to keep giving the parents the benefit of the doubt), lol. What if the cell phones had rang and woke Lisa. Most babies who are startled awake don't just whimper they really scream and if the perp had to walk far to his car I would think that a screaming baby would have woke someone in the neighborhood. That is a really big chance to take. So did he take that chance or did he take the time to turn the phones off? Either way this perp seemed to be mighty comfortable in that home and with their "possessions" (quotes because I hate referring to any child that way).

Gardenlady
10-10-2011, 01:26 PM
Is the bike riding guy different from the handyman?

I wondered that too. Even worse, is either of them the same as the teen (if said teen is 17/18/19, could be taken for a 20-something bike guy :waitasec: ) ??

panthera
10-10-2011, 01:26 PM
MOO ...

BBM: I'm not buying it either ...

Here's what an "intruder" would have to overcome to get Baby out with NO ONE hearing or seeing anything :

1. Open the screen / window without any noise that would wake up someone in the house, or maybe even a neighbor could hear.
2. Open the screen / window without any neighbors or passers-by seeing intruder open the screen / window while "breaking" into house.
3. Lights -- did intruder need more light to see, was there enough light for intruder ?
4. While in the house ... NOT be heard by the Mother or anyone else in the house.
5. While in the house ... NOT be heard by the Dog - even if dog is in yard -- dogs "sense" "danger" !
6. Keep a 10 month old Baby QUIET, so baby's cries do not wake up anyone else in house.
7. Walk through house from Baby's room ... see what intruder can "steal" ... "steal" the 3 cell phones sitting on the counter... and hope these 3 cell phones do NOT ring.
8. Unlock front door and make sure that while unlocking the front door, it does not wake someone in house up.
9. Exit house and make sure no one in house sees or hears intruder leaving.
10. Exit house and make sure none of the neighbors or passers-by see intruder leaving with Baby ...

Now ... the intruder could have taken the phones first, then baby ... either way, intruder has a lot of to do without being seen or heard ...

IMO ... if an "intruder" just kidnapped Baby Lisa, and did not take 3 cell phones ... maybe ...

I'm still stuck on the 3 cell phones ... and particularly, Baby Lisa NOT CRYING if she was taken by an "intruder".

MOO ...
BBM

Excellent list, and the items I bolded are especially interesting since they are definite unknown variables that the intruder would have a difficult time controlling. While a hand could be placed over the baby's mouth to muffle her cries, it also takes away the intruder's free hand to pick up the phones (if not already done on the way to her room) and to unlock and open/close the front door. The only way to control the cell phones from not ringing to alert whoever is inside the house would be to silence them upon entry into the house, which would also take additional time, and delay getting to the objective if indeed it was to abduct the baby. I cannot see a random burglar deciding once inside the house to abduct a 10 month old baby. The baby must have been the primary focus.

MOO

daisy7
10-10-2011, 01:27 PM
This is interesting. Okay, well, maybe just to me. :)

I just did a search on Twitter for kidnapped baby and then for abducted baby. Not a single reporter or news station tweet came up since Oct 4 & 5. In other words, the reporters and news stations are no longer referring to Lisa as kidnapped or abducted, like they were at first.

In other vaguely related news, the FBI has still not listed Lisa on its Kidnappings/abductions page:

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/kidnap/@@wanted-group-listing

Hailey Dunn was just added to the FBI kidnapping page a few days ago.


More than 10 months after her disappearance, Hailey Dunn's case has been classified as a kidnapping by the FBI.

Hailey was reported missing in Colorado City, Texas on Dec. 27, 2010.

http://www.kcbd.com/story/15643786/hailey-dunn-case-declared-kidnapping-by-dallas-fbi

luvbeaches
10-10-2011, 01:28 PM
I saw on the noon news that LE was in Edwardsville searching. I don't think they found anything, but I did recognize the exact location.

Where they were searching is right across the river from the dump. The street they were on is west of I-435 and is the first street next to the river. It's an industrial area, but there's quite a bit of traffic because once you make the turn to head north, there's a neighborhood. There's also a park at the bend in the road prior to reaching the houses. Not sure if it's a park-like setting, or for the fisherman. I didn't see the river on the news report, so I am not sure if they mentioned that or not.

I wonder why they were there? I wonder if there are relatives that live in Edwardsville? If I thought they would be out there today I'd drive over and see what's going on, but I think they are done with that area.

I can see LE checking Deffenbaugh's dump. Deffenbaugh handles the trash for a lot of the greater KC area, but this area is different. Why would they be there? It's quite a drive from where the family lives. I guess it could have been a tip they were following up on and were checking it out.

There was a dredger out in the river right about where they would have been searching. Not sure if they are still there dredging, as they've been there most of the summer, even when the river was high, which I thought would be a tad bit frightening. The Corp of Engineers is supposed to start limiting or ending sand dredging in the river ... or that's what we heard, so maybe this company was out there getting it's last bit of sand. But then I don't know if they changed that or not yet. Also, this dredging outfit is there at night. I don't know if anyone is on the dredge at night, but the lights are on at night. I'll drive out that way today and see if the dredge is still there. Maybe someone on the dredge saw something. Maybe not.

The river has been very high. We had flooding up north and it's just now starting to recede. Typically during the summer, if the river isn't high, that area, especially just east of I-435, has quite a few fishermen. The intake for the Johnson County water is east of the highway and the fishermen walk out on the stone (or might be concrete) to fish. This stone or concrete is there to divert water toward the intake area for JOCO water. It's not blocked off, but there's a diversion area. If the water is high, you can't access the concrete/rocks. It seems like the other day when I went that way I could see some of the rocks.

Anyway, my point is, if the water is low, anything that goes in the river upstream has a good chance of getting hung up for either a little bit or for a long time.

thumbtack
10-10-2011, 01:29 PM
To me, it sounds like they are talking to Lisa's parents when they say, "at the mercy of the next good idea."

HatesSociopaths
10-10-2011, 01:29 PM
I have a court document from 2008 that I would like help decoding/understanding.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/503/irwincustody.jpg

I tried to shrink it so it wouldn't eat up too much space in the thread, what it says is:

(I blacked out the name of the mother of Jeremy's son, as she is not been brought into the case by LE):

Date Filed: 07/17/2008
Location: Clay Case Type: FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng
Disposition: Dismiss by Ct w/o Prejudice Date of Disposition: 10/21/2009
Judge/Commissioner At Disposition: ROBERTS, SHERRILL PAGE


Link for this:
https://www.courts.mo.gov/casenet/cases/nameSearch.do

Type in "Jeremy Irwin" and for the year type "2008".

So, what does "FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng" mean? What does "Dismiss by Ct w/o Prejudice" mean? What does the date of disposition (10/21/2009) mean?

Thank you!

Reason for this sleuthing activity: My theory is that JI feared losing custody of his son and so staged this kidnapping with DB to prevent that. This appears to have resulted from an accidental death IMO, as no other motive for the parents is visible to me at this time. They appear to have loved this child. MOO.

:seeya:

Jacie Estes
10-10-2011, 01:30 PM
Just want to put a thought into the mix. If this handyman is a tweaker, is it possible he could make a few bucks off of selling Lisa. He went in the house and handed Lisa out of the window to whomever he got the money from, on his way out saw the phones and grabbed them. We don't know if these phones are burners or are IPhones. Anyway, they could get a couple bucks from someone for them or higher end phone could be sold/traded. IMHO

gitana1
10-10-2011, 01:31 PM
MOO ...

BBM: I'm not buying it either ...

Here's what an "intruder" would have to overcome to get Baby out with NO ONE hearing or seeing anything :

1. Open the screen / window without any noise that would wake up someone in the house, or maybe even a neighbor could hear.
2. Open the screen / window without any neighbors or passers-by seeing intruder open the screen / window while "breaking" into house.
3. Lights -- did intruder need more light to see, was there enough light for intruder ?
4. While in the house ... NOT be heard by the Mother or anyone else in the house.
5. While in the house ... NOT be heard by the Dog - even if dog is in yard -- dogs "sense" "danger" !
6. Keep a 10 month old Baby QUIET, so baby's cries do not wake up anyone else in house.
7. Walk through house from Baby's room ... see what intruder can "steal" ... "steal" the 3 cell phones sitting on the counter... and hope these 3 cell phones do NOT ring.
8. Unlock front door and make sure that while unlocking the front door, it does not wake someone in house up.
9. Exit house and make sure no one in house sees or hears intruder leaving.
10. Exit house and make sure none of the neighbors or passers-by see intruder leaving with Baby ...

Now ... the intruder could have taken the phones first, then baby ... either way, intruder has a lot of to do without being seen or heard ...

IMO ... if an "intruder" just kidnapped Baby Lisa, and did not take 3 cell phones ... maybe ...

I'm still stuck on the 3 cell phones ... and particularly, Baby Lisa NOT CRYING if she was taken by an "intruder".

MOO ...

It's not hard to cover a kid's mouth and take them out. Also, some kids may keep on sleeping, even if lifted. And some kids may not cry if a stranger woke and picked them up. Didn't the mom say Lisa is very friendly and will go to anyone?

Hallow
10-10-2011, 01:33 PM
Amen in re: Johnson Co. We had a bit of fun with the Johnson v. Wyandotte ethic last night.

I live in the historic district here in Jackson county. Even with the magnitude of some of the houses in my area alone, my rent is always cheaper than in JOCO as well as my electric bills. JOCO is a show off zone from all I've ever seen. I would rather save my money over here than show off some huge expensive condo :)

MissJames
10-10-2011, 01:33 PM
Each of Lisa's parents has a son with someone else. Have we heard anything from the ex's?

panthera
10-10-2011, 01:34 PM
It's not hard to cover a kid's mouth and take them out. Also, some kids may keep on sleeping, even if lifted. And some kids may not cry if a stranger woke and picked them up. Didn't the mom say Lisa is very friendly and will go to anyone?

The problem is, however, unless the perpetrator is familiar with the child, they do not know that upon attempting to abduct her. If indeed Lisa was kidnapped, it is most likely, imo, by someone very familiar with the house, family and the baby.

MOO

Dr.Fessel
10-10-2011, 01:34 PM
I saw on the noon news that LE was in Edwardsville searching. I don't think they found anything, but I did recognize the exact location.

Where they were searching is right across the river from the dump. The street they were on is west of I-435 and is the first street next to the river. It's an industrial area, but there's quite a bit of traffic because once you make the turn to head north, there's a neighborhood. There's also a park at the bend in the road prior to reaching the houses. Not sure if it's a park-like setting, or for the fisherman. I didn't see the river on the news report, so I am not sure if they mentioned that or not.

I wonder why they were there? I wonder if there are relatives that live in Edwardsville? If I thought they would be out there today I'd drive over and see what's going on, but I think they are done with that area.

I can see LE checking Deffenbaugh's dump. Deffenbaugh handles the trash for a lot of the greater KC area, but this area is different. Why would they be there? It's quite a drive from where the family lives. I guess it could have been a tip they were following up on and were checking it out.

The river has been very high. We had flooding up north and it's just now starting to recede. Typically during the summer, if the river isn't high, that area, especially just east of I-435, has quite a few fishermen. The intake for the Johnson County water is east of the highway and the fishermen walk out on the stone (or might be concrete) to fish. This stone or concrete is there to divert water toward the intake area for JOCO water. It's not blocked off, but there's a diversion area. If the water is high, you can't access the concrete/rocks. It seems like the other day when I went that way I could see some of the rocks.

Anyway, my point is, if the water is low, anything that goes in the river upstream has a good chance of getting hung up for either a little bit or for a long time.

How far is that from Lisa's house? Are there homeless people in the area? Would it be an easy bike ride to the Irwins?

Jacie Estes
10-10-2011, 01:35 PM
I have a court document from 2008 that I would like help decoding/understanding.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/503/irwincustody.jpg

I tried to shrink it so it wouldn't eat up too much space in the thread, what it says is:

(I blacked out the name of the mother of Jeremy's son, as she is not been brought into the case by LE):

Date Filed: 07/17/2008
Location: Clay Case Type: FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng
Disposition: Dismiss by Ct w/o Prejudice Date of Disposition: 10/21/2009
Judge/Commissioner At Disposition: ROBERTS, SHERRILL PAGE


Link for this:
https://www.courts.mo.gov/casenet/cases/nameSearch.do

Type in "Jeremy Irwin" and for the year type "2008".

So, what does "FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng" mean? What does "Dismiss by Ct w/o Prejudice" mean? What does the date of disposition (10/21/2009) mean?

Thank you!

Reason for this sleuthing activity: My theory is that JI feared losing custody of his son and so staged this kidnapping with DB to prevent that. This appears to have resulted from an accidental death IMO, as no other motive for the parents is visible to me at this time. They appear to have loved this child. MOO.

:seeya:

w/o prejudice means it can be revisited in court

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 01:35 PM
I live in the historic district here in Jackson county. Even with the magnitude of some of the houses in my area alone, my rent is always cheaper than in JOCO as well as my electric bills. JOCO is a show off zone from all I've ever seen. I would rather save my money over here than show off some huge expensive condo :)
Amongst many Kansans too, JoCo is something of a joke.

LandAuxvasse
10-10-2011, 01:36 PM
I live in the historic district here in Jackson county. Even with the magnitude of some of the houses in my area alone, my rent is always cheaper than in JOCO as well as my electric bills. JOCO is a show off zone from all I've ever seen. I would rather save my money over here than show off some huge expensive condo :)

And to add to the O/T convo... over here closer to the middle of the state, I cringe when I see a Kansas license plate with JO in the corner, because a lot of them drive in the left hand lane and believe that no one should ever have a need to pass them (not even the MO State Troopers).

MOO :twocents: AND OFF TOPIC (1st time ever for me!!)

justbeachy
10-10-2011, 01:37 PM
It seems to me that so many of our theories involve a lot of "if this, then this and, then because of that, then this" in order to make them work. I'm starting to feel like a fact contortionist.

Hallow
10-10-2011, 01:39 PM
Oh we could all go on and on and on about JOCO crazy drivers :)

Hallow
10-10-2011, 01:40 PM
Hey now, don't bunch us all together. :) We have some nice and normal areas over. We also have areas that I'd rather avoid.

You shall henceforth be named "the exception to the rule" :crazy:

vasportsmom
10-10-2011, 01:40 PM
I have a court document from 2008 that I would like help decoding/understanding.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/503/irwincustody.jpg

I tried to shrink it so it wouldn't eat up too much space in the thread, what it says is:

(I blacked out the name of the mother of Jeremy's son, as she is not been brought into the case by LE):

Date Filed: 07/17/2008
Location: Clay Case Type: FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng
Disposition: Dismiss by Ct w/o Prejudice Date of Disposition: 10/21/2009
Judge/Commissioner At Disposition: ROBERTS, SHERRILL PAGE


Link for this:
https://www.courts.mo.gov/casenet/cases/nameSearch.do

Type in "Jeremy Irwin" and for the year type "2008".

So, what does "FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng" mean? What does "Dismiss by Ct w/o Prejudice" mean? What does the date of disposition (10/21/2009) mean?

Thank you!

Reason for this sleuthing activity: My theory is that JI feared losing custody of his son and so staged this kidnapping with DB to prevent that. This appears to have resulted from an accidental death IMO, as no other motive for the parents is visible to me at this time. They appear to have loved this child. MOO.

:seeya:

BBM. Could that be FC=Family Court CS=Child Support. The dismissed part, didn't I read somewhere in an earlier thread (and I apoligize if this later got deleted or ruled rumor, I missed a lot the past few days) that JI's ex sued him for a change in visitation and temp custody but then didn't even show up for the hearing? If so that would make sense for the "dismissed w/o prejudice", right?

denalves
10-10-2011, 01:40 PM
This is exactly the case that comes to mind when thinking about this one! I am so sorry this happened to you, but it is nice to know that somebody understands that it CAN happen. 2 questions - 1. is your suspect a 'familiar' entity to your family? and 2. is your neighborhood one of those like this where everybody knows everybody and is extremely quiet? Just curious but I bet I know the answers as yes.

1. The suspect had an affair with my Father. Her name had been given to LE the day after disappearance and unfortunately she was not investigated. Someone right under our thumb. 2. The neighborhood was quiet and friendly, but I would not say all the neighbors knew everyone. We new our immediate neighbors.

luvbeaches
10-10-2011, 01:40 PM
How far is that from Lisa's house? Are there homeless people in the area? Would it be an easy bike ride to the Irwins?

It is a long way from the Irwin's. There's no way you could ride a bike to this location. I think it would take 40 minutes by car, maybe longer depending on traffic. And, yes, there could be homeless people there. I'll go look. I've never gone into the park area because it's right next to the river and it's at the end of the industrial/warehouse area. There's also a sand plant on that street. My husband would kill me if he knew I was over there by myself (poking around the park area). I'll scoot over there this afternoon.

MissJames
10-10-2011, 01:40 PM
I have a court document from 2008 that I would like help decoding/understanding.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/503/irwincustody.jpg

I tried to shrink it so it wouldn't eat up too much space in the thread, what it says is:

(I blacked out the name of the mother of Jeremy's son, as she is not been brought into the case by LE):

Date Filed: 07/17/2008
Location: Clay Case Type: FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng
Disposition: Dismiss by Ct w/o Prejudice Date of Disposition: 10/21/2009
Judge/Commissioner At Disposition: ROBERTS, SHERRILL PAGE


Link for this:
https://www.courts.mo.gov/casenet/cases/nameSearch.do

Type in "Jeremy Irwin" and for the year type "2008".

So, what does "FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng" mean? What does "Dismiss by Ct w/o Prejudice" mean? What does the date of disposition (10/21/2009) mean?

Thank you!

Reason for this sleuthing activity: My theory is that JI feared losing custody of his son and so staged this kidnapping with DB to prevent that. This appears to have resulted from an accidental death IMO, as no other motive for the parents is visible to me at this time. They appear to have loved this child. MOO.

:seeya:

I'm not sure how to stress this more than I already have.:banghead:
Parents don't give up on their children if there's been an accident. They just don't assume the child is beyond help. The parents instinct is to get help,to do CPR as best they can. Even abusive parents will try to get help and then lie about what happened .
Only if the intention was to kill the child ,would the parents then get rid of the body.

I feel so strongly about this that I'm going to put it in my siggie.

Dr.Fessel
10-10-2011, 01:41 PM
I have a court document from 2008 that I would like help decoding/understanding.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/503/irwincustody.jpg

I tried to shrink it so it wouldn't eat up too much space in the thread, what it says is:

(I blacked out the name of the mother of Jeremy's son, as she is not been brought into the case by LE):

Date Filed: 07/17/2008
Location: Clay Case Type: FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng
Disposition: Dismiss by Ct w/o Prejudice Date of Disposition: 10/21/2009
Judge/Commissioner At Disposition: ROBERTS, SHERRILL PAGE


Link for this:
https://www.courts.mo.gov/casenet/cases/nameSearch.do

Type in "Jeremy Irwin" and for the year type "2008".

So, what does "FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng" mean? What does "Dismiss by Ct w/o Prejudice" mean? What does the date of disposition (10/21/2009) mean?

Thank you!

Reason for this sleuthing activity: My theory is that JI feared losing custody of his son and so staged this kidnapping with DB to prevent that. This appears to have resulted from an accidental death IMO, as no other motive for the parents is visible to me at this time. They appear to have loved this child. MOO.

:seeya:

BBM

Case dismissed but you could file again.

pinki
10-10-2011, 01:41 PM
Maybe the perp had a steak for the dog and a bottle for the baby. Sorry but this father is looking so guilty to me and the Mom looks like the spokesperson.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 01:42 PM
Okay, JoCo moratorium! But I just wish some rich family there had paid for a baby Lisa to raise as their own, after, I don't know, fertility problems maybe. Too close to home for a destination, it's true, and thus unlikely, but it would mean the child is still alive. So maybe somewhere that's the case and the baby was taken to be raised by another.

dog.gone.cute
10-10-2011, 01:42 PM
Snipped by me.

Okay, you are making a lot of sense in this post and I don't like it (I'm trying so hard to keep giving the parents the benefit of the doubt), lol. What if the cell phones had rang and woke Lisa. Most babies who are startled awake don't just whimper they really scream and if the perp had to walk far to his car I would think that a screaming baby would have woke someone in the neighborhood. That is a really big chance to take. So did he take that chance or did he take the time to turn the phones off? Either way this perp seemed to be mighty comfortable in that home and with their "possessions" (quotes because I hate referring to any child that way).


MOO ... I was hoping it made some kind of sense - lol ... I have tried to give the parents the "benefit of the doubt" as well ... but IMO, nothing "fits".

And as far as the intruder, if the intruder came in and out of the same window and took only the Baby, a big MAYBE an "IDI" ... but those 3 cell phones that are missing from the home don't point to an "intruder" IMO ...

I wish we had more info from LE, which makes me believe that LE KNOWS what "most likely" happened ... and IMO, I don't think LE believes the "intruder theory".

I just hope they find Baby Lisa soon !

MOO ...

Dr.Fessel
10-10-2011, 01:42 PM
It is a long way from the Irwin's. There's no way you could ride a bike to this location. I think it would take 40 minutes by car, maybe longer depending on traffic. And, yes, there could be homeless people there. I'll go look. I've never gone into the park area because it's right next to the river and it's at the end of the industrial/warehouse area. There's also a sand plant on that street. My husband would kill me if he knew I was over there by myself (poking around the park area). I'll scoot over there this afternoon.

Well be careful!!

Ellebelle
10-10-2011, 01:43 PM
What do we know about the parents and their socio-economic status? What do they do for a living? How long have they been together, etc? Any prior criminal history or drug use?

This is the Missouri case site:

https://www.courts.mo.gov/casenet/base/welcome.do

luvbeaches
10-10-2011, 01:44 PM
Well be careful!!

It's not a bad area, I just don't know what's down in the park area. I've not really seen any cars when I've made the turn, but I also haven't been down there so I don't know if the cars are just out of view. There's a little restaurant in Edwardsville (Mac's Place) that we love to eat at and we come in that direction because it's quicker for us.

mck16
10-10-2011, 01:45 PM
MOO ...

BBM: I'm not buying it either ...

Here's what an "intruder" would have to overcome to get Baby out with NO ONE hearing or seeing anything :

1. Open the screen / window without any noise that would wake up someone in the house, or maybe even a neighbor could hear.
2. Open the screen / window without any neighbors or passers-by seeing intruder open the screen / window while "breaking" into house.
3. Lights -- did intruder need more light to see, was there enough light for intruder ?
4. While in the house ... NOT be heard by the Mother or anyone else in the house.5. While in the house ... NOT be heard by the Dog - even if dog is in yard -- dogs "sense" "danger" !
6. Keep a 10 month old Baby QUIET, so baby's cries do not wake up anyone else in house.
7. Walk through house from Baby's room ... see what intruder can "steal" ... "steal" the 3 cell phones sitting on the counter... and hope these 3 cell phones do NOT ring.
8. Unlock front door and make sure that while unlocking the front door, it does not wake someone in house up.
9. Exit house and make sure no one in house sees or hears intruder leaving.
10. Exit house and make sure none of the neighbors or passers-by see intruder leaving with Baby ...

Now ... the intruder could have taken the phones first, then baby ... either way, intruder has a lot of to do without being seen or heard ...

IMO ... if an "intruder" just kidnapped Baby Lisa, and did not take 3 cell phones ... maybe ...

I'm still stuck on the 3 cell phones ... and particularly, Baby Lisa NOT CRYING if she was taken by an "intruder".

MOO ...


I really think that if the person were experienced in breaking and entering it could be done easily, especially if the house is carpeted and all bedroom doors are closed. Mother's br the furtherest away.

Also if this was a planned kidnapping, they could have some agent that would put her out at least until he got out of there with her. They could do all this and not even pass by the mother's br. this is just some random thoughts.

cluciano63
10-10-2011, 01:45 PM
Hailey Dunn was just added to the FBI kidnapping page a few days ago.



http://www.kcbd.com/story/15643786/hailey-dunn-case-declared-kidnapping-by-dallas-fbi

I figured that was because she was old enough where she could have run away, feasibly.

Mojen
10-10-2011, 01:45 PM
I have a court document from 2008 that I would like help decoding/understanding.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/503/irwincustody.jpg

I tried to shrink it so it wouldn't eat up too much space in the thread, what it says is:

(I blacked out the name of the mother of Jeremy's son, as she is not been brought into the case by LE):

Date Filed: 07/17/2008
Location: Clay Case Type: FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng
Disposition: Dismiss by Ct w/o Prejudice Date of Disposition: 10/21/2009
Judge/Commissioner At Disposition: ROBERTS, SHERRILL PAGE


Link for this:
https://www.courts.mo.gov/casenet/cases/nameSearch.do

Type in "Jeremy Irwin" and for the year type "2008".

So, what does "FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng" mean? What does "Dismiss by Ct w/o Prejudice" mean? What does the date of disposition (10/21/2009) mean?

Thank you!

Reason for this sleuthing activity: My theory is that JI feared losing custody of his son and so staged this kidnapping with DB to prevent that. This appears to have resulted from an accidental death IMO, as no other motive for the parents is visible to me at this time. They appear to have loved this child. MOO.

:seeya:

FC CS Admin Order w/ Hrng

Family Court: Child Support Administrative Order w/ Hearing.


Jacie answered the dismissal question.

Date of disposition means the day the Judge signed off on the case.

This case was filed by the State for child support. Mom filed other documents that were subsequently dismissed for want of prosecution.

joyless
10-10-2011, 01:46 PM
MOO...but I am not buying stranger abduction. I agree with donegonecute, just too much to deal with. I would like to see parents administered lie detector test again now that the case has progressed. If my child were missing and I was COMPLETELY in the dark about what happened I would do ANYTHING to help focus LE in right direction. MOO...something is not what they claim....

cluciano63
10-10-2011, 01:48 PM
I'm not sure how to stress this more than I already have.:banghead:
Parents don't give up on their children if there's been an accident. They just don't assume the child is beyond help. The parents instinct is to get help,to do CPR as best they can. Even abusive parents will try to get help and then lie about what happened .
Only if the intention was to kill the child ,would the parents then get rid of the body.

I feel so strongly about this that I'm going to put it in my siggie.

I don't know this for sure, because there are many missing children who have not been found; we don't know what the circumstances were in those cases. Some of those children could well have died accidently, overdosed, or some other way and parents reacted badly.

jjenny
10-10-2011, 01:48 PM
Okay, JoCo moratorium! But I just wish some rich family there had paid for a baby Lisa to raise as their own, after, I don't know, fertility problems maybe. Too close to home for a destination, it's true, and thus unlikely, but it would mean the child is still alive. So maybe somewhere that's the case and the baby was taken to be raised by another.

A rich family is much more likely to go for legal adoption, not kidnapping.

andalso
10-10-2011, 01:49 PM
Perhaps the police did not initially believe there was truth to the kidnapping theory....but doesn't the fact that they did a reenactment of the kidnapping show that they now they may believe it could be true?

luvbeaches
10-10-2011, 01:49 PM
A rich family is much more likely to go for legal adoption, not kidnapping.

I would think that would be true. Or at least a private adoption through a doctor or attorney.

luvbeaches
10-10-2011, 01:51 PM
Perhaps the police did not initially believe there was truth to the kidnapping theory....but doesn't the fact that they did a reenactment of the kidnapping show that they now they may believe it could be true?

That could very well be what's going on, however, I just think that someone within the family has more info that they're giving, or the police have more info than they are releasing. I can't figure out why they'd be in Edwardsville. I guess it could have been a tip that they were following up on and found nothing during that search.

justbeachy
10-10-2011, 01:51 PM
Perhaps the police did not initially believe there was truth to the kidnapping theory....but doesn't the fact that they did a reenactment of the kidnapping show that they now they may believe it could be true?

I don't necessarily agree with that. IMO, LE has to explore every option whether they think that is what happened or not. Since they don't KNOW what happened, they have to explore every possibility. And, they could have done a re-enactment to prove that it *couldn't* have happened the way it has been suggested. Who knows. Oh, to be a fly on the LE wall.....

Hallow
10-10-2011, 01:51 PM
Stop!! lol It's not fair to lump us all together. :) Our schools are awesome, and there are "normal" areas in the county. Sadly, what most people see if the snots and the problems they cause.


Aww...wasn't trying to make you feel outted here.

Just playful banter for the most part. Would it help if I said I live close to Independence Ave? We all know what the rumor mill is about that! ha ha

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 01:51 PM
You see, not everyone is rich in JOCO. That's the myth. I do have many friends that live way beyond their means, but that's also something you see everywhere. We can only hope that someone is raising Lisa as their own, but I just don't think that's what's going on. Unfortunately.

I am in my "Fried Green Tomatoes" stage of life and I just don't care. :) I was raised in the Dotte, so maybe that's why. We moved for the schools and don't regret that decision.

Yeah, I don't either (sigh). One can dream though. Anything to think the child might still be alive.

o/t you can razz me about being an "09-er" for many years - it's the ritzy zip code in San Antonio (78209) which is a lot like JoCo; except I was middle class (or lower!) so I know there are all sorts, everywhere.

Jacie Estes
10-10-2011, 01:52 PM
Hey now, don't bunch us all together. :) We have some nice and normal areas over. We also have areas that I'd rather avoid.

Are there any clowns? ;)

stillwatersc
10-10-2011, 01:52 PM
If someone is trying to pass of a very large 10 month old (most people would probably guess her age closer to 18 months) for a new adoption and the adoptees don't know she was stolen and don't care that she's not an infant, then why not adopt out of the foster system? If you are willing to adopt a baby that isn't a newborn, then there are plenty of easier options out there than hooking up w/some shady adoption agency that is selling stolen babies. Right?

Maybe I'm just very naive as far as black market babies go.

But they wouldn't have to give her true age. Claim she is 12 months to try to avoid suspicion.

dog.gone.cute
10-10-2011, 01:52 PM
It's not hard to cover a kid's mouth and take them out. Also, some kids may keep on sleeping, even if lifted. And some kids may not cry if a stranger woke and picked them up. Didn't the mom say Lisa is very friendly and will go to anyone?


Hi gitana1 ! I agree that some children may NOT cry when picked up "in the middle of the night" ... BUT those 3 missing cell phones ... why steal the 3 cell phones that just "happened" to be sitting on the counter ?

An "intruder" has to be CERTAIN that the 10 month old does not CRY and CERTAIN that those 3 cell phones do not RING.

IMO ... it's a lot to do to keep a baby's mouth covered and pick up those 3 phones, put them in your pockets, and get out a house with NO ONE seeing or hearing you.

MOO ...

vasportsmom
10-10-2011, 01:52 PM
MOO ... I was hoping it made some kind of sense - lol ... I have tried to give the parents the "benefit of the doubt" as well ... but IMO, nothing "fits".

And as far as the intruder, if the intruder came in and out of the same window and took only the Baby, a big MAYBE an "IDI" ... but those 3 cell phones that are missing from the home don't point to an "intruder" IMO ...

I wish we had more info from LE, which makes me believe that LE KNOWS what "most likely" happened ... and IMO, I don't think LE believes the "intruder theory".
I just hope they find Baby Lisa soon !

MOO ...

BBM. I really agree with you here. I'm afraid LE knows exactly what happened and that is why we aren't seeing a reward offered or hearing many details that could help in finding Lisa. I'm also afraid that "reinactment" yesterday was simply to disporove the intruder theory for a future court date. From the screen cap I saw the "perp" was requiring help to get in the window so they either proved that 2 people were there for the abduction or that it simply didn't happen as reported/thought. It is unbelievable enough that ONE person took this baby and left NO trace of themself but TWO? Even I can't buy that.

panthera
10-10-2011, 01:53 PM
Perhaps the police did not initially believe there was truth to the kidnapping theory....but doesn't the fact that they did a reenactment of the kidnapping show that they now they may believe it could be true?

The re-enactment indicates to me they were attempting to rule out or include the window entrance as a possibility. I would think, however, it would have been done earlier rather than several days after the fact; therefore it appears it was mainly to document how unlikely this scenario was.

luvbeaches
10-10-2011, 01:54 PM
Each of Lisa's parents has a son with someone else. Have we heard anything from the ex's?

I haven't, but then I haven't been able to keep up on what's going on.

danisisa
10-10-2011, 01:54 PM
A rich family is much more likely to go for legal adoption, not kidnapping.

Not if they have felonies.

jjenny
10-10-2011, 01:54 PM
I would think that would be true. Or at least a private adoption through a doctor or attorney.

Adoption isn't cheap but if the family is rich there is no need for them to kidnap a child when they can adopt one.

Rallihanna
10-10-2011, 01:55 PM
I know we have to explore all theories but remember... many times the simplest answer is the right one.

andalso
10-10-2011, 01:56 PM
I don't necessarily agree with that. IMO, LE has to explore every option whether they think that is what happened or not. Since they don't KNOW what happened, they have to explore every possibility. And, they could have done a re-enactment to prove that it *couldn't* have happened the way it has been suggested. Who knows. Oh, to be a fly on the LE wall.....

BBM: True, the reenactment could be to prove OR disprove the parents story. I wonder if it did either.

joyless
10-10-2011, 01:56 PM
Yes...I am leaning toward accidental death and parents fear losing other children if truth were told...so...could.be med OD or even choking...but if so...WHERE would she be? By the way...MOO and I am not accusing anyone of anything...just a possibility this happened. It would explain the mothers tears being real. MOO

justbeachy
10-10-2011, 01:56 PM
I'm not saying a stranger kidnapping with the intent to sell on the black market is outside the realm of possibilities, but what are the chances that

- dad starts the night shift
- mom forgets to lock the doors
-the dog doesn't bark
- no one wakes up

Then it begs the question, why Lisa? You can't convince me she was the easiest target. I read on BBC all the time about parents running in to pay for gas, running in to buy cupcakes, just running into the store for a minute for whatever, I guarantee you it'd be much easier to walk through a parking lot at target, walmart, grocery store, gas station and snatch a baby and be long gone before the parents notice.

If she was abducted by a highly trained black market baby stealing ring, then where are all the other blond/blue babies that are so highly desired?

If someone is trying to pass of a very large 10 month old (most people would probably guess her age closer to 18 months) for a new adoption and the adoptees don't know she was stolen and don't care that she's not an infant, then why not adopt out of the foster system? If you are willing to adopt a baby that isn't a newborn, then there are plenty of easier options out there than hooking up w/some shady adoption agency that is selling stolen babies. Right?

Maybe I'm just very naive as far as black market babies go.

BBM

Hitting refresh has turned my brain and eyes to mush. I thought that said: Maybe I'm just very naive as far as marketing black babies goes.:eek:

I was like, good gracious! What did I miss?!? And then I read it again and figured out that I just desperately need caffeine.

Mojen
10-10-2011, 01:56 PM
Yeah, I don't either (sigh). One can dream though. Anything to think the child might still be alive.

o/t you can razz me about being an "09-er" for many years - it's the ritzy zip code in San Antonio (78209) which is a lot like JoCo; except I was middle class (or lower!) so I know there are all sorts, everywhere.

Until you said you knew our area because of visiting friends/family; I was convinced the "dot" at the end of your name was for "the Dotte" of Wyandotte County! Drove myself crazy trying to figure out the wfgo part! :D

BeanE
10-10-2011, 02:00 PM
Police: No New Clues in Search for Baby Lisa
12:34 p.m. CDT, October 10, 2011

KANSAS CITY, Mo. A week after she was reported missing from her Northland home, police say that there are no new clues in the search for 10-month-old Lisa Irwin.

snip

Investigators say that over half of the 250 tips received in the case have been generated by the TIPS Hotline, but they say that the tips usually don't have specific information like license plates or suspect descriptions.

"When we get that information detectives have to follow up," said Det. Kevin Boehm of the Kansas City Missouri Police Department. "So use a little common sense. What we're looking for is specific detail."

http://www.fox4kc.com/news/wdaf-lisa-irwin-police-say-they-have-no-new-leads-in-search-for-missing-baby-lisa-irwin-20111010,0,7444931.story

Elley Mae
10-10-2011, 02:00 PM
So now we are looking for rich people with felonies?
:floorlaugh:
I really think this is the most far fetched theory out there.

Whoda thunk it!

Jacie Estes
10-10-2011, 02:01 PM
I am not following this. I am little slow these days. Getting old is a bummer! :)

I spend a lot of time here on WS, or have in the past, and just hate getting bashed for where I live. I don't do that to others, so I would appreciate if they wouldn't do it to me or generalize about a specific area or the type that lives here. You weren't doing this ... I just used this post to mention this.


It was about a convo earlier. We lived in Clay when we were in KCMO so I feel ya.

luvbeaches
10-10-2011, 02:01 PM
Adoption isn't cheap but if the family is rich there is no need for them to kidnap a child when they can adopt one.

I agree. I have two friends that did private adoptions. But that was years ago. I don't know if that's something that is as much of an option as is was 20 or so years ago. However, my cousin and his wife adopted a baby from overseas, and they mortgaged their house, sold a car, and scraped together the money. They are not, nor will they ever be "rich" in the sense of the size of their bank accounts, but they are "rich" in love and family. It's all about priorities.

denalves
10-10-2011, 02:01 PM
Each of Lisa's parents has a son with someone else. Have we heard anything from the ex's?


I am curious about this also. The suspect on my brothers case is a woman who had an affair with my father. Local news story from a couple of months ago. http://www.coloradoconnection.com/news/story.aspx?id=640778

jjenny
10-10-2011, 02:01 PM
But they wouldn't have to give her true age. Claim she is 12 months to try to avoid suspicion.

It would not be possible to legally adopt a kidnapped baby. Where is her paperwork? Also, since people know Lisa is missing if somebody showed up with a 10 months old they didn't have before wouldn't people get suspicious? It's not like showing up with a newborn and claiming to have given birth.

Nana46
10-10-2011, 02:02 PM
Until you said you knew our area because of visiting friends/family; I was convinced the "dot" at the end of your name was for "the Dotte" of Wyandotte County! Drove myself crazy trying to figure out the wfgo part! :D

OT for one second....LOL, I have never been able to even pronounce WFGODOT so I have never figured it out,lol.
Sorry for the OT again. My bad. Back to lurking.

andalso
10-10-2011, 02:03 PM
So now we are looking for rich people with felonies?
:floorlaugh:
I really think this is the most far fetched theory out there.

I think we need to be open to any and all ideas, brainstorming and throwing ideas out there to see what sticks is what I like about this site. I agree, sometimes it leads us astray, and I myself have come up with some doozies I am sure...but it's not necessary to laugh at others theories, thoughts, ideas etc. It might prevent someone for putting something out there for fear of being laughed at. Disprove and disagree, fine....but not necessary to make someone feel badly because you don't agree. MOO

jjenny
10-10-2011, 02:03 PM
I agree. I have two friends that did private adoptions. But that was years ago. I don't know if that's something that is as much of an option as is was 20 or so years ago. However, my cousin and his wife adopted a baby from overseas, and they mortgaged their house, sold a car, and scraped together the money. They are not, nor will they ever be "rich" in the sense of the size of their bank accounts, but they are "rich" in love and family. It's all about priorities.

Lisa is a healthy good looking young child so no doubt many people would be willing to adopt her. But it's not possible to legally adopt a kidnapped child.

vasportsmom
10-10-2011, 02:03 PM
I know we have to explore all theories but remember... many times the simplest answer is the right one.

But what the heck is the simplest answer here? Accidental death/OD? If that is the case and these parents (or just one of them) had to get rid of what is by all accounts a well loved and cared for child quickly I can't imagine them thinking clearly enough to dump their cell phones too and stage a "scene" that has only served to make them look guilty as heck.

I'm just so confused about this one. Nothing makes sense at all here.

ETA: I hope none of that read as snarky to you. I am honestly lost on this case. I really can't wrap my head around the parents being involved but the intruder theory isn't fitting either. Someone yesterday(?) jokingly brought alien abduction and I am starting to think it fits better than anything else but would they leave the darn lights on? Ugh, back to the drawing board.

LandAuxvasse
10-10-2011, 02:03 PM
Really ... I could bash just like everyone else. Does it occur to you that maybe not all people are like this?!?

I apologize if it sounded like I was bashing you. I put "a lot of them" because I KNOW it's not everyone. I apologize to anyone from Johnson County that I insulted with my comments (including my nieces who live there).

MOO :twocents:

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 02:05 PM
OT for one second....LOL, I have never been able to even pronounce WFGODOT so I have never figured it out,lol.
Sorry for the OT again. My bad. Back to lurking.

I answer to "Woofy Go Dot," lol, I think nursebeeme and shefner gave me that nickname, but the wfgodot is actually for the Samuel Beckett play 'Waiting for Godot,' and the last name there is pronounced Geh-DOE.

Dr.Fessel
10-10-2011, 02:05 PM
Police: No New Clues in Search for Baby Lisa
12:34 p.m. CDT, October 10, 2011

KANSAS CITY, Mo. A week after she was reported missing from her Northland home, police say that there are no new clues in the search for 10-month-old Lisa Irwin.

snip

Investigators say that over half of the 250 tips received in the case have been generated by the TIPS Hotline, but they say that the tips usually don't have specific information like license plates or suspect descriptions.

"When we get that information detectives have to follow up," said Det. Kevin Boehm of the Kansas City Missouri Police Department. "So use a little common sense. What we're looking for is specific detail."

http://www.fox4kc.com/news/wdaf-lisa-irwin-police-say-they-have-no-new-leads-in-search-for-missing-baby-lisa-irwin-20111010,0,7444931.story

BBM

Talk about mixed messages. LOL LOL LOL That is the statement we usually hear in a case.

But Young makes this statement or one like it in almost every news conference : "at the mercy of the next good idea."

An idea is not a tip.

justbeachy
10-10-2011, 02:06 PM
I answer to "Woofy Go Dot," lol, I think nursebeeme and shefner gave me that nickname, but the wfgodot is actually for the Samuel Beckett play 'Waiting for Godot,' and the last name there is pronounced Ga-DOE.

I'm so glad you explained this! I can usually figure the names out, but this one has had me stumped. And I'm too stubborn to ask... LOL!

vasportsmom
10-10-2011, 02:07 PM
I answer to "Woofy Go Dot," lol, I think nursebeeme and shefner gave me that nickname, but the wfgodot is actually for the Samuel Beckett play 'Waiting for Godot,' and the last name there is pronounced Geh-DOE.

Thank you so much! Trying to figure out your 'hat' has drove me nuts, lol.

askfornina
10-10-2011, 02:07 PM
does MO have something similar to a sunshine law?

kantoo
10-10-2011, 02:07 PM
OT for one second....LOL, I have never been able to even pronounce WFGODOT so I have never figured it out,lol.
Sorry for the OT again. My bad. Back to lurking.

Waiting For Godot?

whatever, i enjoy wfgodot's posts :) (eta: i got it right!)

luv beaches:

i thought i read somewhere that Jeremy had recently had a job in Edwardsville? anyone else read that?

MissJames
10-10-2011, 02:07 PM
I don't know this for sure, because there are many missing children who have not been found; we don't know what the circumstances were in those cases. Some of those children could well have died accidently, overdosed, or some other way and parents reacted badly.

Would you?

Soulmagent
10-10-2011, 02:08 PM
I too want to know exactly how the Dad (jeremy) found the house, step by step. Did you first note that the door was not locked, then look and see the screen (?) ajar, messed, broke, bent, on the ground, on the floor of the house, just exactly what did he come home too, and what did he do first,second third and so on. and not told randomly.

IMO I think they are looking for the metal clip from the screen being pryed out on the outside.

The screen catch thing that locks into the holes to hold it to the window frame.

dog.gone.cute
10-10-2011, 02:08 PM
BBM. I really agree with you here. I'm afraid LE knows exactly what happened and that is why we aren't seeing a reward offered or hearing many details that could help in finding Lisa. I'm also afraid that "reinactment" yesterday was simply to disporove the intruder theory for a future court date. From the screen cap I saw the "perp" was requiring help to get in the window so they either proved that 2 people were there for the abduction or that it simply didn't happen as reported/thought. It is unbelievable enough that ONE person took this baby and left NO trace of themself but TWO? Even I can't buy that.


BBM: I agreee ... the "re-enactment" yesterday was to either 'prove' or 'disprove' the "intruder theory".

I believe LE knew what the outcome would be -- BUT -- in order for their investigation to be "thorough" investigation ... they had to do that re-enactement ... and I am sure it made more "sense" to LE after it was completed.

MOO ...

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 02:08 PM
Thank you so much! Trying to figure out your 'hat' has drove me nuts, lol.
When I joined WS I was trying to figure out what to call myself, and I happened to be re-reading the Beckett play at the time.
Instant hat!

matou
10-10-2011, 02:09 PM
I answer to "Woofy Go Dot," lol, I think nursebeeme and shefner gave me that nickname, but the wfgodot is actually for the Samuel Beckett play 'Waiting for Godot,' and the last name there is pronounced Geh-DOE.

I knew that xo

cluciano63
10-10-2011, 02:09 PM
I guess they are getting a lot "I saw a blond-haired baby" calls...

As far as not being of clear mind in order to "set a scene"; this would depend upon when the accident really happened (going with accidental death theory). If it had been hours earlier, there would have been time to decide how to handle it, especially if the baby had not been seen by other children or anyone else since at least 7:30PM.

Meem
10-10-2011, 02:10 PM
I've been following along on websleuths since this case broke and don't think I've seen this mentioned: what if there was an intruder l, but they entered the house while they knew the family was away. Then, they hid in th

matou
10-10-2011, 02:10 PM
When the phones were taken, were the chargers taken too? Were they also being charged when they were on the counter?

andalso
10-10-2011, 02:11 PM
IMO I think they are looking for the metal clip from the screen being pryed out on the outside.

The screen cach thing that locks into the holes to hold it to the window frame.

That is a certainly a logical possibility!

cachmo
10-10-2011, 02:11 PM
So now we are looking for rich people with felonies?
:floorlaugh:
I really think this is the most far fetched theory out there.

So poor people buy babies? Im not trying to be snarky, its just that black market adoption isn't cheap. Like I said Google it I promise you will be floored. Just search the word adoption and read ALL articles. The content doesn't always match the title. ALL people cannot pass adoption test and procedures. Some people are just too impatient to wait through the process.
I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED TO LISA.
Btw the adoptive parents do not always know where their baby came from. They set it up with a lawyer. (
sometimes)

cluciano63
10-10-2011, 02:12 PM
Would you?

I am someone who spends time here on WS trying to figure out why people do the things they do...and with some of the horrible things I have read about here, faking a kidnapping to avoid trouble over an accidental death is not the worst thing I can imagine. So no, I would not do it, but that does not mean that people in certain circumstances might not. They might feel at risk of losing custody of other children, or prefer the sympathy of being a victim, or have a past history of questionable child care issues. I can see it happening very easily.

Mojen
10-10-2011, 02:12 PM
I get doing a reenactment, but you have to have exact circumstances to get a similar outcome.

I know in my window climbing in and out years, it depended on what I had on as to how much noise I made. A belt would make noise and hang you up. Sweatpants were nice, easy and quiet.

Please know my window climbs in/out were sneaking in/out as a teen. Nothing nefarious or illegal!

BeanE
10-10-2011, 02:13 PM
BBM

Talk about mixed messages. LOL LOL LOL That is the statement we usually hear in a case.

But Young makes this statement or one like it in almost every news conference : "at the mercy of the next good idea."

An idea is not a tip.

I keep thinking of the tips that were released in Caylee's case. The German Shepherd who peed by the tree, for example.

ClueMeIn
10-10-2011, 02:14 PM
I am NOT going to sit here all day, and play these guessing games! I will be back by 6 pm, and you had all better have this figured out! Got it?

In my heart I am still trying to find Ky! :(

AngelWings444
10-10-2011, 02:14 PM
I am way behind on this case. My heart goes out for Little Lisa, praying for her safe return. She is a beautiful little girl.

One question that I couldn't get out of my head after seeing the parents in the interview regarding the lie detector. Why would ANYONE have to ask LE if they passed? The way the Mother said that stuck a nerve (hinky meter) with me. If my child were missing (God forbid), I wouldn't have to ASK them IF I passed the poly, I would know I did.

Ok..ducking and back to catching up. :read:

Meem
10-10-2011, 02:14 PM
I've been following along on websleuths since this case broke and don't think I've seen this mentioned: what if there was an intruder, but they entered the house while they knew the family was away. Then, hid in the house til they knew they could sneak out w Lisa and no one would know. Intruders have hidden and waited before (btk hid and waited in the closet of one of his victims). Just trying to think outside the box.

jjenny
10-10-2011, 02:14 PM
I guess they are getting a lot "I saw a blond-haired baby" calls...

As far as not being of clear mind in order to "set a scene"; this would depend upon when the accident really happened (going with accidental death theory). If it had been hours earlier, there would have been time to decide how to handle it, especially if the baby had not been seen by other children or anyone else since at least 7:30PM.

Exactly. As far away as CA. The baby looks like a classic baby and nothing stands out so there are no doubt plenty of people who think they saw baby Lisa.

Paige SC
10-10-2011, 02:15 PM
Are there any clowns? ;)

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

norest4thewicked
10-10-2011, 02:15 PM
I get doing a reenactment, but you have to have exact circumstances to get a similar outcome.

I know in my window climbing in and out years, it depended on what I had on as to how much noise I made. A belt would make noise and hang you up. Sweatpants were nice, easy and quiet.

Please know my window climbs in/out were sneaking in/out as a teen. Nothing nefarious or illegal!

Thanks for clarifying....I was wondering...haha

BetteDavisEyes
10-10-2011, 02:15 PM
That article should be stamped with a big ole For Entertainment Purposes Only like the blogs of these people are.

I think of it more in terms of "amusement" ;)

jjenny
10-10-2011, 02:16 PM
I've been following along on websleuths since this case broke and don't think I've seen this mentioned: what if there was an intruder, but they entered the house while they knew the family was away. Then, hid in the house til they knew they could sneak out w Lisa and no one would know. Intruders have hidden and waited before (btk hid and waited in the closet of one of his victims). Just trying to think outside the box.

When was the family away? They had so many people (mother, father, three children), neighbor was over, I doubt intruder would be able to hid in the house.

vasportsmom
10-10-2011, 02:17 PM
IMO I think they are looking for the metal clip from the screen being pryed out on the outside.

The screen cach thing that locks into the holes to hold it to the window frame.

This makes perfect sense. I had been leaning towards the SIM cards from the phones but we don't even know who they had for cell service and some (Verizon for sure) don't have SIM cards. Besides my thinking would have meant the perp hung out even longer since they are usually beneath the battery and it seems like (s)he took spent enough time in the house as it is.

But if they aren't getting anything from the phones wouldn't that have to mean that the battery or SIM card was removed to stop it from pinging?

norest4thewicked
10-10-2011, 02:17 PM
I am way behind on this case. My heart goes out for Little Lisa, praying for her safe return. She is a beautiful little girl.

One question that I couldn't get out of my head after seeing the parents in the interview regarding the lie detector. Why would ANYONE have to ask LE if they passed? The way the Mother said that stuck a nerve (hinky meter) with me. If my child were missing (God forbid), I wouldn't have to ASK them IF I passed the poly, I would know I did.

Ok..ducking and back to catching up. :read:

That's exactly what I turned and said to my husband when we were watching it. WHY did she say that?

laytonian
10-10-2011, 02:18 PM
IMO I think they are looking for the metal clip from the screen being pryed out on the outside.

The screen cach thing that locks into the holes to hold it to the window frame.

It depends how old the windows and screens are. Our older windows had no such clips; you had to wiggle the screens out, which almost always bent them.

Our new windows have the clips on the inside; anyone trying to remove the screen from the outside, would have to use tools to pull it away from the frame.

BUT...we're talking about the front windows on the left -- right? Those two narrow ones? It's obvious the house was remodeled, and one front room split into two. That's why there are two narrow windows separated by that wood divider.

Those windows look too narrow, too small, and too far off the ground for one person to get through without help -- and without leaving marks or making noise.

curiousc
10-10-2011, 02:18 PM
I've been following along on websleuths since this case broke and don't think I've seen this mentioned: what if there was an intruder, but they entered the house while they knew the family was away. Then, hid in the house til they knew they could sneak out w Lisa and no one would know. Intruders have hidden and waited before (btk hid and waited in the closet of one of his victims). Just trying to think outside the box.

TBH, it could be a plausible scenario as well!

Thanks for joining in :)

jjenny
10-10-2011, 02:19 PM
That's exactly what I turned and said to my husband when we were watching it. WHY did she say that?

Well I don't trust the polygraphs are accurate so if I was given one I might be curious if I passed even if I knew I was telling the truth.

luvbeaches
10-10-2011, 02:19 PM
Lisa is a healthy good looking young child so no doubt many people would be willing to adopt her. But it's not possible to legally adopt a kidnapped child.

I understand that you can't legally adopt a kidnapped child. I really don't think the baby was taken by someone who wanted a baby. I could be wrong.

jjenny
10-10-2011, 02:21 PM
I understand that you can't legally adopt a kidnapped child. I really don't think the baby was taken by someone who wanted a baby. I could be wrong.

Women who try to pass a baby as their own usually go for a newborn. While pedophiles usually go for a bit older child. But I guess you never know and there are always exceptions.

panthera
10-10-2011, 02:21 PM
I've been following along on websleuths since this case broke and don't think I've seen this mentioned: what if there was an intruder, but they entered the house while they knew the family was away. Then, hid in the house til they knew they could sneak out w Lisa and no one would know. Intruders have hidden and waited before (btk hid and waited in the closet of one of his victims). Just trying to think outside the box.

To subscribe to this possibility we would have to know when everyone was out of the house at the same time, and who knew JI would be working that night. Again, someone who knew the family.

MOO

Mojen
10-10-2011, 02:21 PM
Thanks for clarifying....I was wondering...haha

I know right!

I thought I should add that qualifier considering where I am posting. :p


I am South of the Irwin's home (by like 20 minutes), but it still amazes me that I have seen no fliers down here; nothing.

When the elderly man from Grandview was missing Price Chopper had fliers at every checkout. As I said the other day, I have seen current Kara Kopetsky fliers but no Baby Lisa.

WHY???

badhorsie
10-10-2011, 02:22 PM
I am perched high on the fence :fence:
Do not want to think these parents did it

curiousc
10-10-2011, 02:23 PM
I have a question about the river. How fast is the current? Is it a slow moving river or not?

If Baby Lisa was put in there, is there any chance that she may surface?

Jacie Estes
10-10-2011, 02:23 PM
:silenced:

;)



:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

panthera
10-10-2011, 02:23 PM
This makes perfect sense. I had been leaning towards the SIM cards from the phones but we don't even know who they had for cell service and some (Verizon for sure) don't have SIM cards. Besides my thinking would have meant the perp hung out even longer since they are usually beneath the battery and it seems like (s)he took spent enough time in the house as it is.

But if they aren't getting anything from the phones wouldn't that have to mean that the battery or SIM card was removed to stop it from pinging?

That is another mystery. When did the phones last ping and from what approximate location?

:waitasec:

vasportsmom
10-10-2011, 02:25 PM
Women who try to pass a baby as their own usually go for a newborn. While pedophiles usually go for a bit older child. But I guess you never know and there are always exceptions.

It seems that someone wanted this particular child. She really doesn't fit into the any of the right victim age groups. The question is why this child? Had they simply saw her and fell in love with her (best case)? Did they want to punish her parent(s)? Was she an easy target for a pedophile because they knew dad was away and that mom was careless with security (worst case)? If any of the above are right why did they take so make chances in getting her?

ETA: I guess that should be unnecessary chances. The turning on of the lights and the taking of the cell phones seem to be rather stupid while the rest of the abduction was "perfect", they left no trace of themselves and either aren't on anybody's radar at all or had an alibi all set up that covered them well enough to pass LE questions.

BetteDavisEyes
10-10-2011, 02:26 PM
Lisa is 10 months old. She has blue eyes and blonde hair. She is 30 inches tall and weighs between 26 and 30 pounds.

I checked out some height/weight charts for babies and noted that 28-29" is average height for boys and girls at 12 months. Average weights for boys and girls vary by a couple of pounds, with boys weighing slightly more. Lisa is above average height and weight at 10 months. Just curious...

krimekat
10-10-2011, 02:26 PM
You have to remember it's been warm during the day and cooler at night.

I am, I live in this zone . . . in the Lou! My windows are wide open especially during the cooler nights (with security beams across my windows & doors). How many of us seek a smoke while on the computer & open a window

nursebeeme
10-10-2011, 02:26 PM
I'm so glad you explained this! I can usually figure the names out, but this one has had me stumped. And I'm too stubborn to ask... LOL!

I didn't know what it meant either ;-) I just call him woofy:rocker: (right woofy!)

Nana46
10-10-2011, 02:27 PM
I've been following along on websleuths since this case broke and don't think I've seen this mentioned: what if there was an intruder, but they entered the house while they knew the family was away. Then, hid in the house til they knew they could sneak out w Lisa and no one would know. Intruders have hidden and waited before (btk hid and waited in the closet of one of his victims). Just trying to think outside the box.

That is an excellent thought!!! I had not even thought of that and I remember some of the BTK stuff........shudders!

sorrell skye
10-10-2011, 02:27 PM
I answer to "Woofy Go Dot," lol, I think nursebeeme and shefner gave me that nickname, but the wfgodot is actually for the Samuel Beckett play 'Waiting for Godot,' and the last name there is pronounced Geh-DOE.

Finally - one mystery has been solved!

waltzingmatilda
10-10-2011, 02:27 PM
OT for one second....LOL, I have never been able to even pronounce WFGODOT so I have never figured it out,lol.
Sorry for the OT again. My bad. Back to lurking.

LOL Nana46! It is a play called 'Waiting For Godot'.(Pronounced gudoh, wfgodot) about sitting waiting for someone while real life passes you by....(or something like that)...and nothing happens.:maddening:
It's akin to what we do here at WS during our vigils for these little ones.

I think I'll sign off for awhile now and deal with some real life stuff....


See you all later!

wm

CN2Souls
10-10-2011, 02:27 PM
I am I going CRAZY!!
:banghead:


Just finished watching every "Parent of Lisa Videos"

One right after the other

And in each one the story changes just a little bit,

and their story seems to change with what reporter are questioning the finding hard to believe.

Hopeful One
10-10-2011, 02:28 PM
I answer to "Woofy Go Dot," lol, I think nursebeeme and shefner gave me that nickname, but the wfgodot is actually for the Samuel Beckett play 'Waiting for Godot,' and the last name there is pronounced Geh-DOE.

Thanks for this!!! I've always wondered about that name too! :) At least one mystery has been solved today!

(I'm not caught up yet so this has probably already been said - I apologize if I'm repeating!)

Nana46
10-10-2011, 02:30 PM
I didn't know what it meant either ;-) I just call him woofy:rocker: (right woofy!)

Maybe the first time here I have been able to finally sleuth something out by being nosy:ohwow:

laytonian
10-10-2011, 02:30 PM
I've been following along on websleuths since this case broke and don't think I've seen this mentioned: what if there was an intruder, but they entered the house while they knew the family was away. Then, hid in the house til they knew they could sneak out w Lisa and no one would know. Intruders have hidden and waited before (btk hid and waited in the closet of one of his victims). Just trying to think outside the box.

.....and when did that person break into the Irwin home and hide? It would have had to be hours before.

In the BTK case you have to remember the differences: (1) he used a screwdriver to break into the locked back door, (2) he knew neighbor Marine Hedge, and (3) he still was surprised by someone who entered and left briefly before Marine returned.

It'd be much harder to hide inside a tiny home with two parents and three children -- for hours.

Soulmagent
10-10-2011, 02:31 PM
I am NOT going to sit here all day, and play these guessing games! I will be back by 6 pm, and you had all better have this figured out! Got it?

In my heart I am still trying to find Ky! :(

:waitasec: On the night stand by the dresser?

:floorlaugh: JK. JK.

HatesSociopaths
10-10-2011, 02:31 PM
I am I going CRAZY!!
:banghead:


Just finished watching every "Parent of Lisa Videos"

One right after the other

And in each one the story changes just a little bit,

and their story seems to change with what reporter are questioning the finding hard to believe.

Interesting observation about the changing stories - can you elaborate with specifics including links and time notations? TIA.

Nana46
10-10-2011, 02:32 PM
.....and when did that person break into the Irwin home and hide? It would have had to be hours before.

In the BTK case you have to remember the differences: (1) he used a screwdriver to break into the locked back door, (2) he knew neighbor Marine Hedge, and (3) he still was surprised by someone who entered and left briefly before Marine returned.

It'd be much harder to hide inside a tiny home with two parents and three children -- for hours.

Possibly coming in from the back? Maybe mom leaves the doors open during the day...maybe when leaving to pick up boys from school? I have heard of people doing this type thing but have no idea how long the time frame was in those instances,IMO

Turtles
10-10-2011, 02:32 PM
:waitasec: On the night stand by the dresser?

:floorlaugh: JK. JK.

:floorlaugh:

luvbeaches
10-10-2011, 02:33 PM
Women who try to pass a baby as their own usually go for a newborn. While pedophiles usually go for a bit older child. But I guess you never know and there are always exceptions.

That's true. Just when you think you've seen or heard it all, something new comes up. I just don't have good feelings about the baby. I wish I did, but I don't. But then look at Elizabeth Smart. I would have never thought they would find her alive. So maybe Lisa will be found alive and unharmed.

curiousc
10-10-2011, 02:33 PM
I am I going CRAZY!!
:banghead:


Just finished watching every "Parent of Lisa Videos"

One right after the other

And in each one the story changes just a little bit,

and their story seems to change with what reporter are questioning the finding hard to believe.

What bugs me is the way they barely give eye contact and look down a lot when being interviewed Perhaps it's because they are told to speak into the microphones, I don't know.

Then when I have seen them, DB looks to JI to speak many times (almost for him to answer and at other times for reassurance) Yet, for example, when asked about their dog, she has no trouble describing the fact that the dog didn't bark, what the dog normally does, etc.

krimekat
10-10-2011, 02:33 PM
Surely LE took the computer if they think the family is in anyway involved they would be remiss not to.

Oh how I wish KS had a Sunshine Law!

So far, Missouri (where Lisa lived) and Kansas (Dad's work site prior to now & probable dump site) . . . neither have Sunshine Laws

CN2Souls
10-10-2011, 02:34 PM
Interesting observation about the changing stories - can you elaborate with specifics including links and time notations? TIA.

Thank you, yes, I am trying to make total post of all the videos (there are many)

And pinpoint at the exact point the story changes in each one...

Mgorules
10-10-2011, 02:35 PM
OT for one second....LOL, I have never been able to even pronounce WFGODOT so I have never figured it out,lol.
Sorry for the OT again. My bad. Back to lurking.

"Waiting for Godot"?

OT, sorry :crazy:

davehead21
10-10-2011, 02:35 PM
i thought i read somewhere that Jeremy had recently had a job in Edwardsville? anyone else read that?

SBM--

I remember this too. However, I don't know if I read it here or heard it on TV.

oh_gal
10-10-2011, 02:35 PM
Maybe this isn't someone trying to pass off a baby as a newborn...but someone that family and friends knew was trying to adopt suddenly "getting" their adopted baby....

epiphany
10-10-2011, 02:35 PM
Search boats along the Missouri River. It was not known if these boats were involved in the search for baby Lisa.
by Brian Foster - KMBC.com... 2:20 PM

http://livewire.kmbc.com/Event/Live_Blog_Amber_Alert_Issued_For_Missing_10-Month-Old

Today? Yesterday? When...?

vasportsmom
10-10-2011, 02:35 PM
O/T This thread seems to be moving so much slower today. Yesterday I was away for a few hours and ended up a whole thread behind. BTW, if my kid goes missing you can safely assume I did something to him, lol. Yesterday I baked and decorated a cake for his new g/f and then fixed a really nice dinner for her b-day only to have him dump her as he walked her out to the car!!! :banghead:

jjenny
10-10-2011, 02:35 PM
Possibly coming in from the back? Maybe mom leaves the doors open during the day...maybe when leaving to pick up boys from school? I have heard of people doing this type thing but have no idea how long the time frame was in those instances,IMO

Well mom could have left the door open during the night. She doesn't remember if she locked it. So there was no need to hide in the home and with so many people in a small home somebody hiding there during the day seems very unlikely.

huckleberryhound
10-10-2011, 02:36 PM
It seems that someone wanted this particular child. She really doesn't fit into the any of the right victim age groups. The question is why this child? Had they simply saw her and fell in love with her (best case)? Did they want to punish her parent(s)? Was she an easy target for a pedophile because they knew dad was away and that mom was careless with security (worst case)? If any of the above are right why did they take so make chances in getting her?

ETA: I guess that should be unnecessary chances. The turning on of the lights and the taking of the cell phones seem to be rather stupid while the rest of the abduction was "perfect", they left no trace of themselves and either aren't on anybody's radar at all or had an alibi all set up that covered them well enough to pass LE questions.

It might be a stretch, but I wonder if they might have targeted by someone
who lost a baby of the same general age and appearance as Lisa.

oh_gal
10-10-2011, 02:36 PM
"Waiting for Godot"?

OT, sorry :crazy:

Thank you!!! I think this whenever wfgodot pops up!!!!

krimekat
10-10-2011, 02:36 PM
wow - this thread has gone off topic & down hill!

Anything newer than this? Police: 'At the mercy of the next good idea'

http://www.kctv5.com/story/15655082/hope-does-not-fade-in-search-for-baby-lisa

As Day 7 arrived, more than 250 tips later, there still is no sign of baby Lisa, but the former agent said hope should not fade.

jadejazzkayla
10-10-2011, 02:38 PM
It seems to me that so many of our theories involve a lot of "if this, then this and, then because of that, then this" in order to make them work. I'm starting to feel like a fact contortionist.

Here's a fact: Lisa's parents have not been named suspects by LE.

AnaTeresa
10-10-2011, 02:38 PM
I'm still baffled by this case.

If it were an intruder, it seems unlikely that Mom or the kids wouldn't wake up. It's possible Lisa would wake when lifted. Whether the lights were turned on by the intruder or the son getting up, you'd think that would be noticed. Plus, it seems odd to take the cell phones off the counter. There's no clear entrance/exit. There's not a lot of clues to go on here.

But - there's not much for the parents, either. How would they get Lisa out of the house without her siblings noticing? Hide the cells? Hide them so well, in face, that they still haven't been found? Then, we have the man carrying the baby sighting in the middle of the night, as well as the suspicious bicycle rider, the handyman, and the teen. There's also exes involved, which statistically can lead to messy situations. The fact that Lisa was taken out of the house quietly points to someone who knows the family, thus making them more confident in navigating the house, or someone who's been watching.

To me, how the parents come across in interviews means very little - they're damned if they do and damned if they don't in every aspect of their behavior, actions, appearances, affect, and tone of voice. Little things like whether they've brushed their hair are picked apart, but in the end, mean nothing. We've had cases where people have been ripped, and turned up innocent. Others come across sympathetically, and are guilty. Behavioral observations are an inexact science. I can't really use their appearances and statements to help me down off the fence.

And then we have LE. They've certainly acted different than I see other LE act in similar cases. The FBI is back seat on this. There's no reward. There's a very public split with the parents for some time, which to me, came across as a bit unprofessional. There are "cofirmed" unnamed LE sources leaking things that Young then disagrees with. At the beginning of this case, there were only 47 tips - so low! The tips are still low. There's no reward. There seems to be very little urgency on the part of LE. They keep searching the same areas. They won't release what they're looking for, who has been cleared, or any real information on the status of the investigation. Most odd, they say things like they challenge others to think of something they hadn't, or that they're waiting for the next idea to come in. I can't tell if they're playing cat and mouse, or if they simply have nothing.

jjenny
10-10-2011, 02:38 PM
That's true. Just when you think you've seen or heard it all, something new comes up. I just don't have good feelings about the baby. I wish I did, but I don't. But then look at Elizabeth Smart. I would have never thought they would find her alive. So maybe Lisa will be found alive and unharmed.

I didn't think they were going to find Elizabeth Smart alive either. But obviously nobody is going to kidnap a 10 months old baby to make that baby a "sister wife." So it got to be a completely different motive if somebody did kidnap her to begin with.

krimekat
10-10-2011, 02:39 PM
Search boats along the Missouri River. It was not known if these boats were involved in the search for baby Lisa.
by Brian Foster - KMBC.com... 2:20 PM

http://livewire.kmbc.com/Event/Live_Blog_Amber_Alert_Issued_For_Missing_10-Month-Old

Today? Yesterday? When...?

today - live blog . . .

CN2Souls
10-10-2011, 02:39 PM
What bugs me is the way they barely give eye contact and look down a lot when being interviewed Perhaps it's because they are told to speak into the microphones, I don't know.

Then when I have seen them, DB looks to JI to speak many times (almost for him to answer and at other times for reassurance) Yet, for example, when asked about their dog, she has no trouble describing the fact that the dog didn't bark, what the dog normally does, etc.


Yes!!!! and they keep adding stuff.... Like the first ime "dad" JI says I thought something was wrong when I drove up and saw the window open and all the lights on so I right away checked on the boys then saw Lisa was missing and started running through the house calling her,


Then in the last one I just watch he says, after looking in on the "boys" I went into the office and tried to fix the screen went in and was talking to "mom" DB, and then asked where is Lisa

TobyWong*
10-10-2011, 02:39 PM
I answer to "Woofy Go Dot," lol, I think nursebeeme and shefner gave me that nickname, but the wfgodot is actually for the Samuel Beckett play 'Waiting for Godot,' and the last name there is pronounced Geh-DOE.

more ot:
This weekend lo andbehold I was flipping channels and was on a random movie (cannot even tell you what it was) and the guy said " i was just sitting around reading "Waiting for Godot" I was like "hey I know that name"
of course I thought of you which in turn made me think websleuths and jumped back on to check on Lisa.

luvbeaches
10-10-2011, 02:39 PM
I have a question about the river. How fast is the current? Is it a slow moving river or not?

If Baby Lisa was put in there, is there any chance that she may surface?

If you're talking about the river near the dump and Edwardsville (The Irwin's live up north and I don't know how close they are to the river up there), but the one here, the Kansas/Kaw River has been high and moving quickly. I personally wouldn't go out in a boat on the river because of the undertow.

While it's not a roaring rapids type river, it does get moving.

Here's a link that shows exactly where LE was searching earlier today. It's where Woodend and S 9th St. merge. It's really not a corner ... you don't stop, you just follow Woodend around the bend and you're on 9th. I think they were right where the blue teardrop is located. It could be there's a boat ramp there, I just don't know. I know there's a parking lot, but I don't know what all is down in that area.

http://www.kansasriver.org/river-access/river-map/edwardsville


If you move the map up, so you're going south, the dump is a little to the southeast. It's to the west of 435 and east of the streets (it's a neighborhood). I didn't realize that the housing developments were that close to the dump. Those people are always complaining about the smell, but the dump has been there for a long, long time. I think Deffenbaugh just got a 10-year extension to keep adding to the dump. It was maybe 3-4 years ago, so this dump is about full.

vasportsmom
10-10-2011, 02:40 PM
It might be a stretch, but I wonder if they might have targeted by someone
who lost a baby of the same general age and appearance as Lisa.

That is as likely as anything else at this point. If I could figure out why aliens would have turned the lights on I would have alien abduction as my top theory right now (j/k, kinda) :crazy:

jjenny
10-10-2011, 02:40 PM
Here's a fact: Lisa's parents have not been named suspects by LE.

Nobody has been named as suspect.
But the child is missing so somebody who did it has to be out there.

oh_gal
10-10-2011, 02:40 PM
wow - this thread has gone off topic & down hill!

Anything newer than this? Police: 'At the mercy of the next good idea'

http://www.kctv5.com/story/15655082/hope-does-not-fade-in-search-for-baby-lisa

As Day 7 arrived, more than 250 tips later, there still is no sign of baby Lisa, but the former agent said hope should not fade.

(above bbm)
:waitasec:

joyless
10-10-2011, 02:40 PM
Could the baby have suffocated...parent...parents....afraid of being charged with neglect...maybe the parent panicked at time of death and called someone...and they decided they had to make it look like a night just like any old night...no late phone calls etc...hence the need to make cell phones disappear. Do cell phone pings transmit once under water?...This is horrible to say, but much easier to get rid of a little body...evidence (the body) vanishes more quickly because so small....MOO of course...there are just so many little blue eyed blonde babies in crib across America every night that could be "snatched" there would b more of it if it were some $ business thing. If it were a mentally "ill"person who needed a baby...would they be so good at it as to leave no evidence...and how far away could they be...someone would know....I will say it again...MOO

curiousc
10-10-2011, 02:41 PM
Search boats along the Missouri River. It was not known if these boats were involved in the search for baby Lisa.
by Brian Foster - KMBC.com... 2:20 PM

http://livewire.kmbc.com/Event/Live_Blog_Amber_Alert_Issued_For_Missing_10-Month-Old

Today? Yesterday? When...?

From that same link, I found this to be a tad interesting:


One investigator held a camera while another attempted to climb through the window of the Irwin home. As the investigator tried to get into the house, the window fell on him.

In addition to the pictures from yesterday where they were re-enacting and it looked like the officer needed a little help getting through the window.

marge_rita
10-10-2011, 02:41 PM
I know right!

I thought I should add that qualifier considering where I am posting. :p


I am South of the Irwin's home (by like 20 minutes), but it still amazes me that I have seen no fliers down here; nothing.

When the elderly man from Grandview was missing Price Chopper had fliers at every checkout. As I said the other day, I have seen current Kara Kopetsky fliers but no Baby Lisa.

WHY???

You live that close and you haven't seen any flyers? I find that disturbing.

I think family, friends and volunteers, even a church group should have fliers posted all over a 30 mile radius.

WHY NOT is right!

imo

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 02:41 PM
I didn't know what it meant either ;-) I just call him woofy:rocker: (right woofy!)
Yeppers. I've sort of grown fond of it over the years!

Wishbone
10-10-2011, 02:41 PM
Thank you, yes, I am trying to make total post of all the videos (there are many)

And pinpoint at the exact point the story changes in each one...



I've noticed the same thing and wanted to tell you it's very kind of you to go thru all that and post the changes.

StJohn
10-10-2011, 02:41 PM
Can anyone think of a reason why JI has not been given a polygraph? He has said he is willing to take one. I don't understand why LE would polygraph the Mom but not the Dad. Even if JI has an alibi, that would not necessarily mean he doesn't have knowledge of what took place.

jjenny
10-10-2011, 02:41 PM
If one of the boys was with mom the father couldn't have looked on the boys without getting into the mother's bedroom. So that is a confusing idea (looking at the boys) coming from the father. He could have only looked at one boy, since the other one was with mom.