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View Full Version : MO - AMBER ALERT: Lisa Irwin, 10 months, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011 - #12



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curiousc
10-10-2011, 02:43 PM
Yes!!!! and they keep adding stuff.... Like the first ime "dad" JI says I thought something was wrong when I drove up and saw the window open and all the lights on so I right away checked on the boys then saw Lisa was missing and started running through the house calling her,


Then in the last one I just watch he says, after looking in on the "boys" I went into the office and tried to fix the screen went in and was talking to "mom" DB, and then asked where is Lisa

UGH! Embellishments or changes to a story are never any good. :(

jjenny
10-10-2011, 02:43 PM
From that same link, I found this to be a tad interesting:



In addition to the pictures from yesterday where they were re-enacting and it looked like the officer needed a little help getting through the window.

It's clearly possible to get in through the window. Might not be very easy but possible, since he got in every time.

Jacie Estes
10-10-2011, 02:43 PM
wow - this thread has gone off topic & down hill!

Anything newer than this? Police: 'At the mercy of the next good idea'

http://www.kctv5.com/story/15655082/hope-does-not-fade-in-search-for-baby-lisa

As Day 7 arrived, more than 250 tips later, there still is no sign of baby Lisa, but the former agent said hope should not fade.



Police said they received information that it is where baby Lisa's father had a job recently; they left empty-handed. Edwardsville KS lead BBM

"It is a long amount of time, considering it is a baby abduction...so you talk about a 24-hour rule as being crucial amount of time you can throw that out," said Jeff Lanza, former FBI agent.

Lanza is following the baby Lisa case.

He said after a week, police probably have all they need at the family's home. BBM If they prolly have everything that they need at their house then a next step could be that Lisa was taken away from the house.

The coulda/shoulda/woulda with the parents is starting to show that there is nothing there.

marge_rita
10-10-2011, 02:44 PM
Lisa is 10 months old. She has blue eyes and blonde hair. She is 30 inches tall and weighs between 26 and 30 pounds.

I checked out some height/weight charts for babies and noted that 28-29" is average height for boys and girls at 12 months. Average weights for boys and girls vary by a couple of pounds, with boys weighing slightly more. Lisa is above average height and weight at 10 months. Just curious...

BDE,
I posted the same thoughts a few days back. When I watched the families 'standing' interview, Lisa's dad looked tall...way taller than D.


imo

AnaTeresa
10-10-2011, 02:44 PM
A note about story changes - in my trial advocacy class, I was taught that people who are being truthful will have small changes in their recounting of events, because you're going through the process of recollecting it in your mind and recounting what you remember. There are tons of little variables that will effect the amount of info you pull - things like how the question is phrased, how tired the person is, etc. Two people who saw the same thing or experienced something together will tell things a bit differently, or even disagree and contradict each other.

When a story is exactly the same, time after time, with no variability, that's when someone is more likely to be lying because that points to a rehearsed story. You're parroting back what you memorized. When you have two people telling the same story, with no variability between each other, or from recounting to recounting, that's when you definitely have to question their stories.

So, I'm still on the fence about the parents. I've not seen a glaring inconsistency - just little variability. JMHO.

luvbeaches
10-10-2011, 02:45 PM
I didn't think they were going to find Elizabeth Smart alive either. But obviously nobody is going to kidnap a 10 months old baby to make that baby a "sister wife." So it got to be a completely different motive if somebody did kidnap her to begin with.

Yeah, the motive is completely different. I just never thought in a million years they'd find Elizabeth. So there's always hope...

joyless
10-10-2011, 02:46 PM
Here's a fact: Lisa's parents have not been named suspects by LE.
And they haven't been completely ruled out either...so the what-ifs are legit. MOO

vasportsmom
10-10-2011, 02:47 PM
Can anyone think of a reason why JI has not been given a polygraph? He has said he is willing to take one. I don't understand why LE would polygraph the Mom but not the Dad. Even if JI has an alibi, that would not necessarily mean he doesn't have knowledge of what took place.

The only thing I can think of is that they are trying to drive a wedge between the parents to get one of them to talk. Are LDT's expensive? Could they be absolutely certain of dad's location during the time in question and simply don't want to stretch the budget by testing him for nothing?

laytonian
10-10-2011, 02:48 PM
He said after a week, police probably have all they need at the family's home. BBM If they prolly have everything that they need at their house then a next step could be that Lisa was taken away from the house.

The coulda/shoulda/woulda with the parents is starting to show that there is nothing there.

This is where we all see things differently.

Everything they've done, has led them nowhere else. The restaging of the "break-in" may have been the clincher.

There's only one victim here: the child.

LandAuxvasse
10-10-2011, 02:48 PM
I am not an attorney and have no idea what records would be available per this link, but would love it if someone in the know could interpret!!

http://ago.mo.gov/sunshinelaw/chapter610.htm



610.200. Law enforcement agency log or record available for inspection and copying — limitation.

610.200. Law enforcement agency log or record available for inspection and copying — limitation.

All law enforcement agencies that maintain a daily log or record that lists suspected crimes, accidents, or complaints, shall make available the following information for inspection and copying by the public:

(1) The time, substance, and location of all complaints or requests for assistance received by the agency;
(2) The time and nature of the agency's response to all complaints or request for assistance; and
(3) If the incident involves an alleged crime or infraction:

(a) The time, date, and location of occurrence;
(b) The name and age of any victim, unless the victim is a victim of a crime under chapter 566, RSMo;
(c) The factual circumstances surrounding the incident; and
(d) A general description of any injuries, property or weapons involved.

Soulmagent
10-10-2011, 02:49 PM
Now I wonder if the window latch thing is why they searched the burned dumpster and the landfill.

If mom staged it ,the latch is somewhere but not on the outside because she would have left the latch laying there or thrown it away because the the screen never came all the way off.

If an abductor pryed the screen back the latch would be in the yard. Somewhere ,if the screen came all the way off.

In police terms anyway. The latch ,if thats what is being looked for (and I cannot think of anything else) should be in the yard.

laytonian
10-10-2011, 02:49 PM
Here's a fact: Lisa's parents have not been named suspects by LE.

No one is named a "suspect" anymore, until there's enough evidence for an indictment or arrest. Naming one a suspect, pretty much insures they'll lawyer up.

luvbeaches
10-10-2011, 02:51 PM
A note about story changes - in my trial advocacy class, I was taught that people who are being truthful will have small changes in their recounting of events, because you're going through the process of recollecting it in your mind and recounting what you remember. There are tons of little variables that will effect the amount of info you pull - things like how the question is phrased, how tired the person is, etc. Two people who saw the same thing or experienced something together will tell things a bit differently, or even disagree and contradict each other.

When a story is exactly the same, time after time, with no variability, that's when someone is more likely to be lying because that points to a rehearsed story. You're parroting back what you memorized. When you have two people telling the same story, with no variability between each other, or from recounting to recounting, that's when you definitely have to question their stories.

So, I'm still on the fence about the parents. I've not seen a glaring inconsistency - just little variability. JMHO.


I worked in a bank that was robbed. You're right. That's exactly what happens.

TobyWong*
10-10-2011, 02:51 PM
Yes!!!! and they keep adding stuff.... Like the first ime "dad" JI says I thought something was wrong when I drove up and saw the window open and all the lights on so I right away checked on the boys then saw Lisa was missing and started running through the house calling her,


Then in the last one I just watch he says, after looking in on the "boys" I went into the office and tried to fix the screen went in and was talking to "mom" DB, and then asked where is Lisa

That would really change the whole coming home and knowing somethings wrong right away scenario. Plus it would add more time before 911 was called and when he got home.

curiousc
10-10-2011, 02:51 PM
It's clearly possible to get in through the window. Might not be very easy but possible, since he got in every time.

I did see that he did get in. But what I was implying is that it wasn't easy with both having assistance to get up to the window and a sliding window falling down on him.

curiositycat
10-10-2011, 02:51 PM
Have the parents been seen anywhere in public since Friday night at the hotel? I know it has been said that they met with LE on Saturday, sat down with them, ect.

I looked at the pics of the vigil last night and did not see either of them there. Did I miss that?

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 02:51 PM
I have a question about the river. How fast is the current? Is it a slow moving river or not?

If Baby Lisa was put in there, is there any chance that she may surface?

Very good question, and can't find an answer. It's pretty slow moving in the city because of dams just north of there (if memory serves). But it's swift enough that most bodies dumped in it will resurface (if they do at all) miles downriver from K.C. I remember there was a time when a serial killer was murdering prostitutes (think I posted this before on earlier thread) and the bodies would eventually wash up from the river or be found in it miles away.

IAM
10-10-2011, 02:52 PM
I did a google search of Debra Netz and of Debra Netts. NETTS comes up with links pertaining to this case wheras NETZ does not. So, which is the correct spelling?

luvbeaches
10-10-2011, 02:53 PM
If one of the boys was with mom the father couldn't have looked on the boys without getting into the mother's bedroom. So that is a confusing idea (looking at the boys) coming from the father. He could have only looked at one boy, since the other one was with mom.

It was confusing. It's the details that usually snag people up when they are not being honest.

CN2Souls
10-10-2011, 02:53 PM
Anyone notice in this video, JI, say at the very beginning "WE found" than changes it to "ah...Found the....


http://video.foxnews.com/v/1208764392001/exclusive-parents-of-missing-baby-lisa-speak-out/?playlist_id=163706#/v/1209530440001/what-happened-to-baby-lisa/?playlist_id=163706


http://video.foxnews.com/v/1209530440001/inside-the-desperate-search-for-lisa-irwin/

shefner
10-10-2011, 02:53 PM
Denalves, does your brother Christopher have a missing thread here on Websleuths? If not, we need to make one for him.

curiousc
10-10-2011, 02:53 PM
If you're talking about the river near the dump and Edwardsville (The Irwin's live up north and I don't know how close they are to the river up there), but the one here, the Kansas/Kaw River has been high and moving quickly. I personally wouldn't go out in a boat on the river because of the undertow.

While it's not a roaring rapids type river, it does get moving.

Here's a link that shows exactly where LE was searching earlier today. It's where Woodend and S 9th St. merge. It's really not a corner ... you don't stop, you just follow Woodend around the bend and you're on 9th. I think they were right where the blue teardrop is located. It could be there's a boat ramp there, I just don't know. I know there's a parking lot, but I don't know what all is down in that area.

http://www.kansasriver.org/river-access/river-map/edwardsville


If you move the map up, so you're going south, the dump is a little to the southeast. It's to the west of 435 and east of the streets (it's a neighborhood). I didn't realize that the housing developments were that close to the dump. Those people are always complaining about the smell, but the dump has been there for a long, long time. I think Deffenbaugh just got a 10-year extension to keep adding to the dump. It was maybe 3-4 years ago, so this dump is about full.

Thank you very much for this! :)

meowmo
10-10-2011, 02:54 PM
Very good question, and can't find an answer. It's pretty slow moving in the city because of dams just north of there (if memory serves). But it's swift enough that most bodies dumped in it will resurface (if they do at all) miles downriver from K.C. I remember there was a time when a serial killer was murdering prostitutes (think I posted this before on earlier thread) and the bodies would eventually wash up from the river or be found in it miles away.

Can vouch for this, I live right on the banks of the river. Bodies that end up in the water are either never found or wash up far away.

Janeumayer
10-10-2011, 02:54 PM
I'm not sure a teen could pull this off, and have the baby not be found, in a week's time. But who knows, teens do all sorts of things I never would have thought they would do.

I am thinking that it could be pulled off, if the baby is no longer with us.

krimekat
10-10-2011, 02:54 PM
If one of the boys was with mom the father couldn't have looked on the boys without getting into the mother's bedroom. So that is a confusing idea (looking at the boys) coming from the father. He could have only looked at one boy, since the other one was with mom.

Don't the boys share a room? Maybe he checked their "room", & moved on to the next room - where he found Deborah & the little guy (but no Pumpkin Pie)

Just K
10-10-2011, 02:54 PM
What is in the back yard? There had to have been a tip , a ping something that keeps bringing them back there. Ugghhhh

Maybe they are Calling the Phones!!! Hoping to hear one ring.

laytonian
10-10-2011, 02:54 PM
I did see that he did get in. But what I was implying is that it wasn't easy with both having assistance to get up to the window and a sliding window falling down on him.

I don't see how it could have been done silently, in a home full of people.

Why THAT baby?
It'd be easier to take one from a shopping cart, a car, or while it's unwatched, outdoors.

BetteDavisEyes
10-10-2011, 02:55 PM
BDE,
I posted the same thoughts a few days back. When I watched the families 'standing' interview, Lisa's dad looked tall...way taller than D.


imo

I haven't read every thread or all of the posts on some, but I was curious about Lisa's size and did some sleuthing on baby sites for charts that provided height/weight info.

badhorsie
10-10-2011, 02:55 PM
Oh My, 150 guests, come join us and give your point of view, we need ideas.
You know you want to :D

lauriej
10-10-2011, 02:56 PM
Have the parents been seen anywhere in public since Friday night at the hotel? I know it has been said that they met with LE on Saturday, sat down with them, ect.

I looked at the pics of the vigil last night and did not see either of them there. Did I miss that?

..no, they have not.

..tweets yesterday said they were not at the racetrack handing out flyers/selling t-shirts or present at the evening vigil.

meowmo
10-10-2011, 02:56 PM
I don't see how it could have been done silently, in a home full of people.

Why THAT baby?
It'd be easier to take one from a shopping cart, a car, or while it's unwatched, outdoors.


THIS!

:fencefall:

vasportsmom
10-10-2011, 02:57 PM
Maybe they are Calling the Phones!!! Hoping to hear one ring.

Wouldn't the batteries be dead by now? I have a smart phone and my phone is usually dead w/i 6 hours (I pack an extra battery around with me) but even my youngest son's regular phone is lucky to last more than 2 days or so and that is with him just packing it around in his bag but never actually using it.

luvbeaches
10-10-2011, 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by kantoo View Post

i thought i read somewhere that Jeremy had recently had a job in Edwardsville? anyone else read that?



SBM--

I remember this too. However, I don't know if I read it here or heard it on TV.

Interesting. This might explain why LE was searching the river near Edwardsville.

curiositycat
10-10-2011, 02:58 PM
I did a google search of Debra Netz and of Debra Netts. NETTS comes up with links pertaining to this case wheras NETZ does not. So, which is the correct spelling?
It's Netz

jjenny
10-10-2011, 02:58 PM
I am thinking that it could be pulled off, if the baby is no longer with us.

I don't think that teen had anything to do with it at all.

Dr.Fessel
10-10-2011, 02:59 PM
A note about story changes - in my trial advocacy class, I was taught that people who are being truthful will have small changes in their recounting of events, because you're going through the process of recollecting it in your mind and recounting what you remember. There are tons of little variables that will effect the amount of info you pull - things like how the question is phrased, how tired the person is, etc. Two people who saw the same thing or experienced something together will tell things a bit differently, or even disagree and contradict each other.

When a story is exactly the same, time after time, with no variability, that's when someone is more likely to be lying because that points to a rehearsed story. You're parroting back what you memorized. When you have two people telling the same story, with no variability between each other, or from recounting to recounting, that's when you definitely have to question their stories.

So, I'm still on the fence about the parents. I've not seen a glaring inconsistency - just little variability. JMHO.

I just watched a show last night that demonstrated how easy it is to change peoples memories of an event to the point they would swear a person was wearing a short bright red coat when they were really wearing a long green trench coat.

It told all about and showed how your real memory will change when presented with evidence that your memory had to be wrong when the evidence they are giving to prove you are wrong is fake. You go right along with it.

I can't remember the name of the show but it was really good. I think it was on the history channel last night.

vasportsmom
10-10-2011, 03:00 PM
I don't think that teen had anything to do with it at all.

I don't either. The only thing that makes me think teen is the missing phones but I really can't imagine a teen leaving no trace of himself or being able to hid everything so well for this long.

IAM
10-10-2011, 03:00 PM
It's Netz

Then how come no google search pertaining to this case comes up with this spelling? If you type NETTS you will get all sorts of info even pics of Debra Netz/Netts Bradley?

tlcya
10-10-2011, 03:00 PM
..no, they have not.

..tweets yesterday said they were not at the racetrack handing out flyers/selling t-shirts or present at the evening vigil.

I hadn't seen tweets about them not being present at the racetrack. I seem to recall news reports that that is exactly where they were. huh. Maybe I am recalling reports that the "family" was at the racetrack handing out flyers and selling t-shirts but I could have sworn the reports included the parents being there.

ETA looks like Jeremy's sister Ashley and friends were at the speedway. Wonder if parents were with LE/investigators for another round of interviews yesterday.

Ashley Irwin, sister of Lisa’s father, Jeremy, said she and a group of friends distributed thousands of fliers with pictures of the missing girl and sold T-shirts to raise money for a reward.

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/10/09/3197568/relatives-friends-of-missing-infant.html#ixzz1aPJ9XaCX

Marah
10-10-2011, 03:01 PM
Can anyone think of a reason why JI has not been given a polygraph? He has said he is willing to take one. I don't understand why LE would polygraph the Mom but not the Dad. Even if JI has an alibi, that would not necessarily mean he doesn't have knowledge of what took place.

In hopes of not putting him on the defense?

luvbeaches
10-10-2011, 03:01 PM
Now I wonder if the window latch thing is why they searched the burned dumpster and the landfill.

If mom staged it ,the latch is somewhere but not on the outside because she would have left the latch laying there or thrown it away because the the screen never came all the way off.

If an abductor pryed the screen back the latch would be in the yard. Somewhere ,if the screen came all the way off.

In police terms anyway. The latch ,if thats what is being looked for (and I cannot think of anything else) should be in the yard.

I think they probably were searching the landfill for Lisa. I could be wrong, but it's a big dump and it's probably crucial to get in and search the trash from a specific area prior to it being covered up with more trash. I could be wrong, but Deffenbaugh trash dump isn't call Trash Mountain for no reason.

They also searched the river area across from the dump, which is Edwardsville.

Just K
10-10-2011, 03:02 PM
MOO ...

BBM: I'm not buying it either ...

Here's what an "intruder" would have to overcome to get Baby out with NO ONE hearing or seeing anything :

1. Open the screen / window without any noise that would wake up someone in the house, or maybe even a neighbor could hear.
2. Open the screen / window without any neighbors or passers-by seeing intruder open the screen / window while "breaking" into house.
3. Lights -- did intruder need more light to see, was there enough light for intruder ?
4. While in the house ... NOT be heard by the Mother or anyone else in the house.
5. While in the house ... NOT be heard by the Dog - even if dog is in yard -- dogs "sense" "danger" !
6. Keep a 10 month old Baby QUIET, so baby's cries do not wake up anyone else in house.
7. Walk through house from Baby's room ... see what intruder can "steal" ... "steal" the 3 cell phones sitting on the counter... and hope these 3 cell phones do NOT ring.
8. Unlock front door and make sure that while unlocking the front door, it does not wake someone in house up.
9. Exit house and make sure no one in house sees or hears intruder leaving.
10. Exit house and make sure none of the neighbors or passers-by see intruder leaving with Baby ...

Now ... the intruder could have taken the phones first, then baby ... either way, intruder has a lot of to do without being seen or heard ...

IMO ... if an "intruder" just kidnapped Baby Lisa, and did not take 3 cell phones ... maybe ...

I'm still stuck on the 3 cell phones ... and particularly, Baby Lisa NOT CRYING if she was taken by an "intruder".

MOO ...

In this morning's Today Show report with ML an the ex FBi guy there is a shot of the front door and there is a storm door, too. So, you can add that to the list of things/obstacles and chances for making a noise.

curiousc
10-10-2011, 03:02 PM
..no, they have not.

..tweets yesterday said they were not at the racetrack handing out flyers/selling t-shirts or present at the evening vigil.

How terribly sad!

I'd love to say that it speaks volumes but I would get bashed by others. LOL Seriously, I do suppose some people don't know what to do when their child is missing and, quite possibly, they could have held their own vigil with their sons.

Do they need to find support in organizations that know what to do in missing child cases? Or are they having rest days and really they don't want this baby found?

CN2Souls
10-10-2011, 03:02 PM
I can see changes in a story such as I wore my blue jacket that day , to No I think it was my Black jacket,

But I drove up a "KNEW SOMETHING WAS WRONG" So I right away checked on the kid and notice Lisa was missing and started calling her name. "

To "I Drove up and "KNEW SOMETHING WAS WRONG" So, I walked through the house and started turning off lights and when I got to the computer room i noticed the window was open and I tried to fix it and the screen was , so I couldn't close it...

I noticed this was one of the change After LE had told him what they found when they dusted the window and told him they didn't think the window was the point of entry...


Thats kind of a big change...

luvbeaches
10-10-2011, 03:03 PM
Thank you very much for this! :)

You're welcome. And if I can get out of here, I am going to poke around that area later today.

HatesSociopaths
10-10-2011, 03:03 PM
Here's a fact: Lisa's parents have not been named suspects by LE.

There is likely a good reason they haven't been named "suspects." Here is an article about it, plus I would add it is a sure way to get the people to "lawyer up" and not cooperate. MOO.


When the "Suspect" Designation Wreaks Injustice: The Richard Jewell Case

No one seems to know who coined the term "person of interest." But it is not hard to trace the root cause of the designation's relatively recent popularization. It started with a lawsuit, specifically the lawsuit of Richard Jewell, the security guard whom the FBI outed as a suspect in the Atlanta Olympic Park bombing investigation.

After the government dropped Jewell's name to the press, Jewell became the immediate target of fevered speculation. Hordes of journalists subjected his life to the unrelenting proctological examination that has become commonplace with the advent of cable news and its insatiable appetite for sensational stories.

As it turned out, the FBI eventually figured out that Jewell had done nothing wrong. But in the meantime, its act of naming him as a suspect in this notorious crime left his life and reputation in tatters.

Once exonerated, Jewell sued a bunch of his accusers and achieved some substantial settlements. NBC paid him more than $500,000 to settle a suit stemming from comments by news anchor Tom Brokaw that suggested that the FBI must have had significant evidence against Jewell, given that it had named him.

The lesson the police and press gleaned from the Jewell debacle, however, was not the right one. They should have learned that prematurely naming suspects is a really bad idea - as is suggesting that suspects must have been named because there's strong evidence against them.

But what the police and press learned, instead, was simply that using the loaded term "suspect" opens the door to potential legal liability.

Thus, a euphemism was born. After all, calling someone a "person of interest" doesn't suggest official suspicion or evidence of guilt. Wink; wink.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/lazarus/20050526.html

curiositycat
10-10-2011, 03:04 PM
Then how come no google search pertaining to this case comes up with this spelling? If you type NETTS you will get all sorts of info even pics of Debra Netz/Netts Bradley?

I got quite a bit with the search. Try spelling the first name Deborah, I think that's how I found some things.

pinki
10-10-2011, 03:07 PM
They did have metal detectors combing the yard

IAM
10-10-2011, 03:07 PM
Has anyone heard if anything other than baby Lisa and the phones are missing? Like a Blanket or jacket maybe? It is Oct. and if someone were stealing a baby wouldn't they want to conceal the baby somewhat in a blanket or something?

If Lisa was taken out with just her clothes, but was spotted in a man's arms in a diaper only, Where are the clothes? Burnt in the dumpster? If I were LE I would try to get all the information I could on the make and manufacturer of the outfit. Perhaps a picture shows her in this outfit. This could help manufacueres to determine what material the clothes were made of. Then, a chemical analysis of the burnt dumpster residue might reveal something. The house also needs to be searched for this outfit. Also, try to pinpoint where this outfit was bought and by who and where. This could be really important.

norest4thewicked
10-10-2011, 03:08 PM
I thought it was Nettz...but I guess in the scheme of things it really doesn't matter...

krimekat
10-10-2011, 03:09 PM
Then how come no google search pertaining to this case comes up with this spelling? If you type NETTS you will get all sorts of info even pics of Debra Netz/Netts Bradley?

called tags or smartlinks . . . Google thrives on them

Padua
10-10-2011, 03:10 PM
There is likely a good reason they haven't been named "suspects." Here is an article about it, plus I would add it is a sure way to get the people to "lawyer up" and not cooperate. MOO.



http://writ.news.findlaw.com/lazarus/20050526.html

I thought they already lawyered up.

Janeumayer
10-10-2011, 03:10 PM
After reading all the threads and almost all articles: I cannot believe how many times the parents story have changed.
"Boys sleeping in their own beds, 5 year old sleeping with mom, dad checking in on baby then going to mom waking her and asking where baby is, dad going into mom's room asking why all the lights are on, dad finding "window" open then noticing screen bent, dad saying "windows" were opened, parents calling 911 from neighbors house, parents using dad's work phone to call 911, etc, etc, etc."
I could go on and on. If the parents are not involved, why do their stories differ soooo much?

ClueMeIn
10-10-2011, 03:10 PM
Ok, so not quite 6 pm PST yet! LOL!

I have to say that I would know something was wrong immediately too. I had a burglary, and knew. Hard to explain, but when I got out of the car, I had this eery feeling.

Not key, but Kyron! :)

panthera
10-10-2011, 03:11 PM
Maybe they are Calling the Phones!!! Hoping to hear one ring.

After this amount of time wouldn't the phones be dead?

Not to be contradictory, just a question since I never go that long without charging mine.

curiositycat
10-10-2011, 03:11 PM
I thought it was Nettz...but I guess in the scheme of things it really doesn't matter...
Nope it's Netz. Of that I am sure. :innocent:

askfornina
10-10-2011, 03:11 PM
i have Fox News on in the background while i'm reading this thread and on Shepard Smith just now they had a segment about baby Lisa, he said that LE did the reenactment a half dozen times and couldn't reenact it like the parents said it happened. first time i've heard "half dozen times." could be conjecture on Shepard Smith's part.

norest4thewicked
10-10-2011, 03:11 PM
After reading all the threads and almost all articles: I cannot believe how many times the parents story have changed.
"Boys sleeping in their own beds, 5 year old sleeping with mom, dad checking in on baby then going to mom waking her and asking where baby is, dad going into mom's room asking why all the lights are on, dad finding "window" open then noticing screen bent, dad saying "windows" were opened, parents calling 911 from neighbors house, parents using dad's work phone to call 911, etc, etc, etc."
I could go on and on. If the parents are not involved, why do their stories differ soooo much?

It could be the reports of what the parents say, not the actual thing that they do say...I've read quite a few dense things said by reporters in a lot of cases.

huckleberryhound
10-10-2011, 03:12 PM
Can anyone think of a reason why JI has not been given a polygraph? He has said he is willing to take one. I don't understand why LE would polygraph the Mom but not the Dad. Even if JI has an alibi, that would not necessarily mean he doesn't have knowledge of what took place.

I agree, that seems very strange to me. I mean why not give him one,
just to rule him out as having any knowledge ? It makes me wonder if
they have some sort of actual evidence that Mom is lying to them.

MyBelle
10-10-2011, 03:13 PM
I thought it was Nettz...but I guess in the scheme of things it really doesn't matter...

Sounds to me that LE knows the parents are involved. The sense of urgency and danger that is usually associated with a stranger abduction seems to have vanished over the weekend and has been replaced with a child that is missing only to the rest of us and the parents know where she can be found.

JMO

Soulmagent
10-10-2011, 03:13 PM
They did have metal detectors combing the yard

Right and when I watched the video one officer,leaned over to feel the grass with a side ways motion like he was looking for a small item on top of the ground. Not like he was looking for anything buried or large because he went in to see what the hit was on and didnt just look. He did however toss whatever he found back on the ground which was confusing to me ,if he was trying to clear the area,he should have taken it with him.

curiousc
10-10-2011, 03:13 PM
Has anyone heard if anything other than baby Lisa and the phones are missing? Like a Blanket or jacket maybe? It is Oct. and if someone were stealing a baby wouldn't they want to conceal the baby somewhat in a blanket or something?

If Lisa was taken out with just her clothes, but was spotted in a man's arms in a diaper only, Where are the clothes? Burnt in the dumpster? If I were LE I would try to get all the information I could on the make and manufacturer of the outfit. Perhaps a picture shows her in this outfit. This could help manufacueres to determine what material the clothes were made of. Then, a chemical analysis of the burnt dumpster residue might reveal something. The house also needs to be searched for this outfit. Also, try to pinpoint where this outfit was bought and by who and where. This could be really important.

Good point. Is there any other article of clothing or a blanket missing? What about the blanket that she possibly had in the crib when she went to sleep? Why no description of a blanket?

curiositycat
10-10-2011, 03:13 PM
i have Fox News on in the background while i'm reading this thread and on Shepard Smith just now they had a segment about baby Lisa, he said that LE did the reenactment a half dozen times and couldn't reenact it like the parents said it happened. first time i've heard "half dozen times." could be conjecture on Shepard Smith's part.

Saw that too, Shep does tend to exaggerate at times. :waitasec:

norest4thewicked
10-10-2011, 03:14 PM
Nope it's Netz. Of that I am sure. :innocent:

Yeah...I know it is now. My major point of the post was whether it really mattered in the case. I hate how its so hard to get your real feelings across on forums...:banghead:

askfornina
10-10-2011, 03:15 PM
Saw that too, Shep does tend to exaggerate at times. :waitasec:

did you see the two bald yelling men he had on talking about the case? whew. couldn't take all that. talking heads baffle me sometimes.

jjenny
10-10-2011, 03:15 PM
Saw that too, Shep does tend to exaggerate at times. :waitasec:

I also believe the parents expressed the opinion that they don't have a clue of how it happened. So that would make it impossible for LE to even re-enact it as parents claimed it happened.

IAM
10-10-2011, 03:16 PM
I agree, that seems very strange to me. I mean why not give him one,
just to rule him out as having any knowledge ? It makes me wonder if
they have some sort of actual evidence that Mom is lying to them.

Or, they are trying to make the dad feel at ease like the focus is not on him....

MyBelle
10-10-2011, 03:16 PM
I agree, that seems very strange to me. I mean why not give him one,
just to rule him out as having any knowledge ? It makes me wonder if
they have some sort of actual evidence that Mom is lying to them.

If LE already suspects the father, they aren't going to rule him out just because he passes a poly.

JMO

curiositycat
10-10-2011, 03:17 PM
Yeah...I know it is now. My major point of the post was whether it really mattered in the case. I hate how its so hard to get your real feelings across on forums...:banghead:
I know what you mean. Without being able to see the person, or hear their voice, it's easy to read meaning into something that isn't there. It can be frustrating at times.

IAM
10-10-2011, 03:18 PM
Yeah...I know it is now. My major point of the post was whether it really mattered in the case. I hate how its so hard to get your real feelings across on forums...:banghead:

It may not matter to the case. But, it matters to us Sleuths who are trying to peruse any pertaining articles. The correct spelling is needed to do this.

panthera
10-10-2011, 03:18 PM
i have Fox News on in the background while i'm reading this thread and on Shepard Smith just now they had a segment about baby Lisa, he said that LE did the reenactment a half dozen times and couldn't reenact it like the parents said it happened. first time i've heard "half dozen times." could be conjecture on Shepard Smith's part.

That was an earlier question I had, if LE had attempted this re-enactment before, closer to the time of her disappearance, or waited until yesterday with several attempts in that singular re-enactment.

:waitasec:

katydid23
10-10-2011, 03:18 PM
What good does it do him to burn the clothes in the dumpster? How did this man know where Lisa's room was, when all doors were closed? How did he know JI was at work? Why did he put the screen back on after climbing through the window? Why did the dogs not bark? Why did the baby not cry? Why did he take the phones?

He could have burned the clothes and maybe the sim cards as a way of getting rid of identifying evidence. And he may , of course, be insane.

It is easy to know where an infant's room is, you open the door and look inside. There are only a few choices to choose from. Besides, he may have been inside before.

He did not climb the the window, most likely came in thru the front unlocked door.

He could have easily seen JI drive away in his work truck that night.

Maybe the dogs did bark. But they are fenced up in the back yard. And the baby was probably dosed on baby tylenol. She may have slept through it.
Or maybe she cried and he muffled her cries somehow.

And if the phones were all together sitting in plain sight on the cointer I would be surprised if he did not take them. imoo

mrye4709
10-10-2011, 03:18 PM
Now FOX is pretty much saying the parents are guilty. I understand the story doesn't make sense and the parents are changing little details, but what happened to evidence and our justice system? Maybe they should start talking about some of the other children missing and stop trying to get ratings on this one alone. I'm on the fence, but I take up for the parents because I feel that there needs to be proof of something before they are convicted by the media and the public. Geez, I hope nothing happens to a child i'm close to. If the parents did something then she can't be far, just find her and then figure out what happened. Praying she is somewhere safe.....

EllaMae
10-10-2011, 03:21 PM
So poor people buy babies? Im not trying to be snarky, its just that black market adoption isn't cheap. Like I said Google it I promise you will be floored. Just search the word adoption and read ALL articles. The content doesn't always match the title. ALL people cannot pass adoption test and procedures. Some people are just too impatient to wait through the process.
I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED TO LISA.
Btw the adoptive parents do not always know where their baby came from. They set it up with a lawyer. (
sometimes)



Think about this case.....

Lisa Steinberg and her baby brother who were illegally adopted by a coke- head pseudo lawyer and his equally coked-out live-in lover Hedda Nusbaum. People around them were suspicious,especially her co-workers, but no one really did anything to help Lisa Steinberg or the baby boy they adopted next. Although technically the babies were not kidnapped, Steinberg was the "lawyer" who set up the supposed adoption but he actually kept them because his lover wanted children and he knew they'd never be allowed to adopt legally. The birth parents never knew who actually had their babies.
Steinburg was only allowed to practice law due to a legal loop-hole in NY law at the time. IIRC he either couldn't pass the bar, or didn't finish law school or something. He was really just con artist.
He beat Lisa into unconsciousness, and then left her to die on a cold bathroom floor while he and Hedda smoked crack for hours on end. Hedda finally called for help but it was way too late. The baby boy was found tied in a playpen with a diaper he'd had on for days and a bottle full of curdled milk.

askfornina
10-10-2011, 03:21 PM
Now FOX is pretty much saying the parents are guilty. I understand the story doesn't make sense and the parents are changing little details, but what happened to evidence and our justice system? Maybe they should start talking about some of the other children missing and stop trying to get ratings on this one alone. I'm on the fence, but I take up for the parents because I feel that there needs to be proof of something before they are convicted by the media and the public. Geez, I hope nothing happens to a child i'm close to. If the parents did something then she can't be far, just find her and then figure out what happened. Praying she is somewhere safe.....

Shepard Smith really was going after the mother. they did a montage of a couple of interviews. they didn't even SHOW the father. :banghead:

panthera
10-10-2011, 03:21 PM
Good point. Is there any other article of clothing or a blanket missing? What about the blanket that she possibly had in the crib when she went to sleep? Why no description of a blanket?

Good point. Someone taking a baby out of her crib would likely remove her with the blanket if for no other reason than to disguise what they were carrying out the front door.

MOO

RANCH
10-10-2011, 03:22 PM
i have Fox News on in the background while i'm reading this thread and on Shepard Smith just now they had a segment about baby Lisa, he said that LE did the reenactment a half dozen times and couldn't reenact it like the parents said it happened. first time i've heard "half dozen times." could be conjecture on Shepard Smith's part.

What part of their story was LE trying to reenact?

kantoo
10-10-2011, 03:22 PM
i have Fox News on in the background while i'm reading this thread and on Shepard Smith just now they had a segment about baby Lisa, he said that LE did the reenactment a half dozen times and couldn't reenact it like the parents said it happened. first time i've heard "half dozen times." could be conjecture on Shepard Smith's part.

I have not heard the parents say how the abductor came in through the window. I thought that was just one of LE's options as to how the baby could have been abducted.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 03:23 PM
Now FOX is pretty much saying the parents are guilty. I understand the story doesn't make sense and the parents are changing little details, but what happened to evidence and our justice system? Maybe they should start talking about some of the other children missing and stop trying to get ratings on this one alone. I'm on the fence, but I take up for the parents because I feel that there needs to be proof of something before they are convicted by the media and the public. Geez, I hope nothing happens to a child i'm close to. If the parents did something then she can't be far, just find her and then figure out what happened. Praying she is somewhere safe.....
That's what one expects from Fox. Certainly not carefully balanced analysis.

askfornina
10-10-2011, 03:23 PM
What part of their story was LE trying to reenact?

he was talking about the police going through the window. "reenactment" as it relates to the window. i think Shepard Smith was just really, really wrong in that entire segment.

JeannaT
10-10-2011, 03:25 PM
Now FOX is pretty much saying the parents are guilty. I understand the story doesn't make sense and the parents are changing little details, but what happened to evidence and our justice system? Maybe they should start talking about some of the other children missing and stop trying to get ratings on this one alone. I'm on the fence, but I take up for the parents because I feel that there needs to be proof of something before they are convicted by the media and the public. Geez, I hope nothing happens to a child i'm close to. If the parents did something then she can't be far, just find her and then figure out what happened. Praying she is somewhere safe.....

I wish everyone who has had someone break into their house in the wee hours, and they didn't know it until later would come forward and storm FOX with emails.

I'll go first. Back when I was first married, my brother was going to come visit and arrive in the wee hours of the night so I left the front door unlocked. (Something that I do fairly regularly anyway out of carelessness). At the time we had the best watch dog I've ever had, a Jack Russell mix who NEVER missed a beat. He had several barks/growls which we came to be able to read very well, what he was communicating. Sliding anything at all past that dog was impossible. So anyway, my brother came in about 3, fixed himself a sandwich and went to bed. Fred the dog didn't alarm (something we still marvel at occasionally) and none of us woke up although I was trying to sleep lightly to hear when he arrived. When I woke up in the morning, I thought my brother had been delayed and had not arrived and was very surprised to see him there.

And of course I could list all the cases of kidnappings that are proved to have happened just the way Lisa was taken. IMHO. Coralrose Fullwood for one.

MyBelle
10-10-2011, 03:25 PM
Now FOX is pretty much saying the parents are guilty. I understand the story doesn't make sense and the parents are changing little details, but what happened to evidence and our justice system? Maybe they should start talking about some of the other children missing and stop trying to get ratings on this one alone. I'm on the fence, but I take up for the parents because I feel that there needs to be proof of something before they are convicted by the media and the public. Geez, I hope nothing happens to a child i'm close to. If the parents did something then she can't be far, just find her and then figure out what happened. Praying she is somewhere safe.....

the only evidence they have is that the child is not where she is supposed to be. I'm not sure why you conclude the child would be close by if the parents did something to her. Landfills and rivers are not exactly easy locations to search.

JMO

BetteDavisEyes
10-10-2011, 03:27 PM
Latest update from AP:

Police back at home of Kansas City missing baby
Email Story Print By MARIA SUDEKUM FISHER, AP
16 minutes ago

KANSAS CITY, Mo. — Investigators in Kansas City climbed through a window that parents said had been tampered with the night their 10-month-old daughter disappeared in an apparent attempt to re-enact an abduction.

Lisa Irwin's parents reported her missing early Tuesday after her father returned home from work. Her parents said someone must have crept into their home while the child's mother and brothers slept and snatched the baby girl.

The parents said a front window had been tampered with, and police were seen crawling through one Sunday. An officer was back at the house early Monday for about 10 minutes, walking around to the rear...

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20111008/US.Baby.Missing/

tlcya
10-10-2011, 03:28 PM
i have Fox News on in the background while i'm reading this thread and on Shepard Smith just now they had a segment about baby Lisa, he said that LE did the reenactment a half dozen times and couldn't reenact it like the parents said it happened. first time i've heard "half dozen times." could be conjecture on Shepard Smith's part.

I think the BBM portion may be correct. sounds like conjecture on Shep's part to me. Also, parents can't have said "how it happened" as they claim to have been asleep (Deborah) and at work (Jeremy). As far as I know parents have continued to stick to the statement that they don't really know what happened. So, it is not possible for LE to even be trying to test how parents said it happened as they never said how it happened.

gliving
10-10-2011, 03:28 PM
Lisa story coming up on CNN - a new twist - wonder what that is?

MissJames
10-10-2011, 03:29 PM
Could the baby have suffocated...parent...parents....afraid of being charged with neglect...maybe the parent panicked at time of death and called someone...and they decided they had to make it look like a night just like any old night...no late phone calls etc...hence the need to make cell phones disappear. Do cell phone pings transmit once under water?...This is horrible to say, but much easier to get rid of a little body...evidence (the body) vanishes more quickly because so small....MOO of course...there are just so many little blue eyed blonde babies in crib across America every night that could be "snatched" there would b more of it if it were some $ business thing. If it were a mentally "ill"person who needed a baby...would they be so good at it as to leave no evidence...and how far away could they be...someone would know....I will say it again...MOO


I just don't believe a mother would assume her baby is beyond help,and get rid of the body. Not if she loved the baby .She would call for help.

elepher50
10-10-2011, 03:29 PM
A police re-enactment in the Baby Lisa case today raised scepticism about her parents’ claims that the child was plucked from her crib by an unknown abductor in the middle of the night.

The operation proved difficult for two officers acting as a potential kidnapper, as each had difficulty getting into the home and needed help from other investigators.

One officer got his legs caught in the window after it suddenly slammed closed while he was climbing in.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2047561/Lisa-Irwin-missing-Cop-gets-stuck-window-kidnap-enactment.html#ixzz1aPPfdTxd


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2047561/Lisa-Irwin-missing-Cop-gets-stuck-window-kidnap-enactment.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

angelsdream76
10-10-2011, 03:30 PM
I live about 10 minutes NW of where baby Lisa lives. I haven't seen a single flyer up here. Not one at gas stations, restaurants or at Zona Rosa which a huge outdoor shopping center.

As far as kidnapping for illegal adoption, does anybody remember the seriel killer John Robinson, who was from KS/Mo. He befriended a single mother from a battered women's shelter. She had a 4-5 month old daughter. He killed her, forged papers and gave the baby to his brother, saying the mother had commited suicide.

Also there are 2 airports very close to them. The downtown and KCI. I haven't flown in forever, but how easy would it be to hop on a plane and be out of the area?

SarahW
10-10-2011, 03:30 PM
Saw that too, Shep does tend to exaggerate at times. :waitasec:

A. The parents did not claim an intruder came in through the window - only that the window appeared tampered with. Both said it did not appear to them as though an intruder COULD have gotten in the window opening.

B. I watched the the officer klutzing himself in again and again. It was almost as if he WISHED to make it appear that getting in the window were impractical. I know men older than he who could manage it with more grace.

katydid23
10-10-2011, 03:31 PM
O/T This thread seems to be moving so much slower today. Yesterday I was away for a few hours and ended up a whole thread behind. BTW, if my kid goes missing you can safely assume I did something to him, lol. Yesterday I baked and decorated a cake for his new g/f and then fixed a really nice dinner for her b-day only to have him dump her as he walked her out to the car!!! :banghead:

He DUMPED her on her birthday?11???? Oh my. Poor girl. LOL

MissJames
10-10-2011, 03:33 PM
That's what one expects from Fox. Certainly not carefully balanced analysis.

As opposed to..........:waitasec:

MyBelle
10-10-2011, 03:33 PM
I think the BBM portion may be correct. sounds like conjecture on Shep's part to me. Also, parents can't have said "how it happened" as they claim to have been asleep (Deborah) and at work (Jeremy). As far as I know parents have continued to stick to the statement that they don't really know what happened. So, it is not possible for LE to even be trying to test how parents said it happened as they never said how it happened.

The parents have stated "facts"--things they claim were noticeably out of the ordinary--that imply what happened. I think LE is now establishing that these "facts" were merely the parents staging the scene. iow, no intruder came in or went out the window.

JMO

laytonian
10-10-2011, 03:33 PM
I wish everyone who has had someone break into their house in the wee hours, and they didn't know it until later would come forward and storm FOX with emails.

I'll go first. Back when I was first married, my brother was going to come visit and arrive in the wee hours of the night so I left the front door unlocked. (Something that I do fairly regularly anyway out of carelessness). At the time we had the best watch dog I've ever had, a Jack Russell mix who NEVER missed a beat. He had several barks/growls which we came to be able to read very well, what he was communicating. Sliding anything at all past that dog was impossible. So anyway, my brother came in about 3, fixed himself a sandwich and went to bed. Fred the dog didn't alarm (something we still marvel at occasionally) and none of us woke up although I was trying to sleep lightly to hear when he arrived. When I woke up in the morning, I thought my brother had been delayed and had not arrived and was very surprised to see him there.

And of course I could list all the cases of kidnappings that are proved to have happened just the way Lisa was taken. IMHO. Coralrose Fullwood for one.

Had your dog "met" your brother, prior to that?

We have a new dog (whippet/rat terrier mix), and we notice he alerts/barks on people the first time -- and then he's calm when they come in later.

Everyone I've known, whose home was broken into, was not home at the time.

Elley Mae
10-10-2011, 03:33 PM
A. The parents did not claim an intruder came in through the window - only that the window appeared tampered with. Both said it did not appear to them as though an intruder COULD have gotten in the window opening.

B. I watched the the officer klutzing himself in again and again. It was almost as if he WISHED to make it appear that getting in the window were impractical. I know men older than he who could manage it with more grace.

I know exactly what you mean in reference to B, just like when OJ tried on the glove.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 03:34 PM
I live about 10 minutes NW of where baby Lisa lives. I haven't seen a single flyer up here. Not one at gas stations, restaurants or at Zona Rosa which a huge outdoor shopping center.

As far as kidnapping for illegal adoption, does anybody remember the seriel killer John Robinson, who was from KS/Mo. He befriended a single mother from a battered women's shelter. She had a 4-5 month old daughter. He killed her, forged papers and gave the baby to his brother, saying the mother had commited suicide.

Also there are 2 airports very close to them. The downtown and KCI. I haven't flown in forever, but how easy would it be to hop on a plane and be out of the area?

Hello and welcome to WS, angelsdream76.

SarahW
10-10-2011, 03:34 PM
That's what one expects from Fox. Certainly not carefully balanced analysis.

Excuse me, that's what one expects of Shep Smith. The color commentators vary in quality. He's notorious for being silly.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 03:34 PM
As opposed to..........:waitasec:
Haphazardly balanced analysis??

fraudqueen
10-10-2011, 03:34 PM
I've been following along on websleuths since this case broke and don't think I've seen this mentioned: what if there was an intruder, but they entered the house while they knew the family was away. Then, hid in the house til they knew they could sneak out w Lisa and no one would know. Intruders have hidden and waited before (btk hid and waited in the closet of one of his victims). Just trying to think outside the box.

Excellent theory....why not? this happens all the time in store burglaries.
best thoughts I've seen lately

Tuffy
10-10-2011, 03:35 PM
Not if they have felonies.

They (the rich people) could still do a foreign adoption, where the background check might not be as thorough.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 03:35 PM
Excuse me, that's what one expects of Shep Smith. The color commentators vary in quality. He's notorious for being silly.
Not talking about the on-air personalities so much as I'm talking about Rupert Murdoch.

Jaxson
10-10-2011, 03:35 PM
THe fire was around 2:28 am the night/morning of disappearance. Right around the same time as the phone call that they wont comment on.

Maybe the timeline has the exact time?

Lisa Irwin-Timeline - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150977) (timeline link)


Just a thought when I read this....what if abductor took phones through them in the dumpster and lit it on fire ...but one of the phones landed on the dial button and made a call before it went up in flames. Okay my wild thought for the day!

dog.gone.cute
10-10-2011, 03:36 PM
I live about 10 minutes NW of where baby Lisa lives. I haven't seen a single flyer up here. Not one at gas stations, restaurants or at Zona Rosa which a huge outdoor shopping center.

As far as kidnapping for illegal adoption, does anybody remember the seriel killer John Robinson, who was from KS/Mo. He befriended a single mother from a battered women's shelter. She had a 4-5 month old daughter. He killed her, forged papers and gave the baby to his brother, saying the mother had commited suicide.

Also there are 2 airports very close to them. The downtown and KCI. I haven't flown in forever, but how easy would it be to hop on a plane and be out of the area?


:welcome3:

BetteDavisEyes
10-10-2011, 03:36 PM
Lisa story coming up on CNN - a new twist - wonder what that is?

Not much to that report. Sounds like the "new twist" is the reenactment that we already know about. Guest also mentions that stranger infant abductions are rare and that in most cases, infant abductions are by someone close to the family.

JeannaT
10-10-2011, 03:36 PM
Had your dog "met" your brother, prior to that?

We have a new dog (whippet/rat terrier mix), and we notice he alerts/barks on people the first time -- and then he's calm when they come in later.

Everyone I've known, whose home was broken into, was not home at the time.

Yes, he had met my brother a few times. But for him not to alert when the door was opened, around 2:30 a.m., was astounding. Fred the dog was as shocked as I was to see my brother walk out of that bedroom in the morning. He DID light up barking at that moment, but not during the night.

gliving
10-10-2011, 03:37 PM
CNN's angle was that if Lisa was abducted by someone wanting a baby, there is a very good chance she can be found.

Funny how the different news networks work a story.

laytonian
10-10-2011, 03:38 PM
I live about 10 minutes NW of where baby Lisa lives. I haven't seen a single flyer up here. Not one at gas stations, restaurants or at Zona Rosa which a huge outdoor shopping center.

As far as kidnapping for illegal adoption, does anybody remember the seriel killer John Robinson, who was from KS/Mo. He befriended a single mother from a battered women's shelter. She had a 4-5 month old daughter. He killed her, forged papers and gave the baby to his brother, saying the mother had commited suicide.

Also there are 2 airports very close to them. The downtown and KCI. I haven't flown in forever, but how easy would it be to hop on a plane and be out of the area?

But why that baby? The subdivision is "hidden", it's far from downtown and the airports, the house had to be broken into while people were there, and there are easier scenarios to pull off.

I don't think the Robinson case is a good comparison, since he had to kill a woman to get the child.

tlcya
10-10-2011, 03:38 PM
The parents have stated "facts"--things they claim were noticeably out of the ordinary--that imply what happened. I think LE is now establishing that these "facts" were merely the parents staging the scene. iow, no intruder came in or went out the window.

JMO

I just find it highly unlikely that Mr. Shephard has a direct line to LE or that they are choosing him, of all people, to share the fruits of their investigative analysis with.

If I recall, the parents have stated on a couple of occasions that they do NOT think someone could have entered through that window.

fraudqueen
10-10-2011, 03:38 PM
I know exactly what you mean in reference to B, just like when OJ tried on the glove.

that's the same thing I said....like O.J.....lol.

I watched that guy "attempting" to crawl in the window and was rolling. All you needed was one jump from the ground, through the window and zippiddy...you're in. Especially someone who had been inside the house before and knew what was under the window inside. Probably take about 30 seconds...if that...IMO.

laytonian
10-10-2011, 03:39 PM
Yes, he had met my brother a few times. But for him not to alert when the door was opened, around 2:30 a.m., was astounding. Fred the dog was as shocked as I was to see my brother walk out of that bedroom in the morning. He DID light up barking at that moment, but not during the night.

Sounds like your dog's a coma-sleeper ;)

loveandhugs
10-10-2011, 03:39 PM
After reading all the threads and almost all articles: I cannot believe how many times the parents story have changed.
"Boys sleeping in their own beds, 5 year old sleeping with mom, dad checking in on baby then going to mom waking her and asking where baby is, dad going into mom's room asking why all the lights are on, dad finding "window" open then noticing screen bent, dad saying "windows" were opened, parents calling 911 from neighbors house, parents using dad's work phone to call 911, etc, etc, etc."
I could go on and on. If the parents are not involved, why do their stories differ soooo much?



Just because the parents say they realized baby Lisa was "gone" when the dad came home from work does not mean that is what actually happened. If the parents were involved, it is possible that something happened to Lisa before the dad went to work, they then decided to say Lisa was put to bed as usual, and dad came home to find her missing. Baby Lisa may have never been put in her crib that evening.

Unfortunately parents do harm their children, and many children are never found. : (

JeannaT
10-10-2011, 03:39 PM
Not much to that report. Sounds like the "new twist" is the reenactment that we already know about. Guest also mentions that stranger infant abductions are rare and that in most cases, infant abductions are by someone close to the family.

I don't understand what exactly they're unsuccessful at "reenacting". If they literally don't think someone could get in that window, go to the baby, and get the baby back out the window they're wrong. They're wrong.

But I do think it's unlikely, and it's requires a little bit of coordination and strength. I think someone walked in the door, turned on some lights, took the cell phones, took the baby, opened the window considering going out it, and then decided against that and went out the front door instead. If they need me to, I'd be glad to come show them how. ;D

HatesSociopaths
10-10-2011, 03:39 PM
I just don't believe a mother would assume her baby is beyond help,and get rid of the body. Not if she loved the baby .She would call for help.

What if the baby was cold to the touch and clearly dead by the time they discovered her?

panthera
10-10-2011, 03:39 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2047561/Lisa-Irwin-missing-Cop-gets-stuck-window-kidnap-enactment.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

I still am at a loss, especially after looking at several photos of this re-enactment, why an intruder would choose this front window to break into the house. Granted the large dog is in the back, however, would someone be so desperate to get inside they would risk being seen by nearby neighbors? Aren't most B&E on single story homes done through the rear?

vasportsmom
10-10-2011, 03:40 PM
He DUMPED her on her birthday?11???? Oh my. Poor girl. LOL

Yes, he did. His little brother still isn't speaking to him because he really liked the girl and I'm ready to kill him for making me do all that work for a girl he didn't even plan to date for another 8 hours. My time would have been much better spent here trying to keep up with the thread. :banghead:

Dr.Fessel
10-10-2011, 03:41 PM
i have Fox News on in the background while i'm reading this thread and on Shepard Smith just now they had a segment about baby Lisa, he said that LE did the reenactment a half dozen times and couldn't reenact it like the parents said it happened. first time i've heard "half dozen times." could be conjecture on Shepard Smith's part. There was a video posted yesterday that was very long showing all the different ways they could crawl through the window. What they were trying to prove or disprove I have no idea but they went through the window several times.

joyless
10-10-2011, 03:42 PM
Sounds to me that LE knows the parents are involved. The sense of urgency and danger that is usually associated with a stranger abduction seems to have vanished over the weekend and has been replaced with a child that is missing only to the rest of us and the parents know where she can be found.

JMO

Sadly it seems we have learned from past cases, the longer the body is not found if it is...and I hope its not...a suspicious death...less strong evidence. Little Caylee...Celina....time is not on sweet Lisa's side.

MissJames
10-10-2011, 03:43 PM
Sounds like LE is ramping up the pressure on the parents.

LE claimed mom didn't pass the LDT and told dad he didn't need to take one. That would be a devicive move on LE's part. If dad is responsible,mom would be expected to say "wait a minute,it wasn't me it was ...." If mom WAS responsible it would be dad's opportunity to place the blame fully on her.
The re-enactments are turning the screws on the parents story. Makes me wonder what LE knows for sure? Are they even looking at anyone else?
Look at all the people who came forward when Susan Powell went missing and told LE that JP was suspicious. Is anyone talking about Lisa's parents? I hope LE has spoken the other parents of the two boys.

JeannaT
10-10-2011, 03:44 PM
Sounds like your dog's a coma-sleeper ;)

Not at all - that's why we were baffled. And when I heard that Jessica Lunsford's barky little dachshund didn't bark when Jessica was taken from her bed, I thought um hmm. It happens.

Inexplicable, but it happens - ;D

fraudqueen
10-10-2011, 03:44 PM
IMO....the parents are being truthful or they would have given a better story...the dog barks all the time, we didn't pay attention, I left the lights on...no, didn't have the baby monitor on, so tired forgot to lock the door. I mean...really!! That's why it seems true. I feel she's probably lucky to be alive..if she had woke up and confronted a crazy person who wanted a baby, it wouldn't have gone well.

goldringstx
10-10-2011, 03:44 PM
First post, but I've been reading for days... :seeya:

Has anyone in MSM released the description of the "man" with the baby that was allegedly seen by the neighbor?

I can't get past the fact that not even a general description of this man was released - height, build, direction of travel, nothing. It's seemed strange since day 1 to me.

MyBelle
10-10-2011, 03:44 PM
I just find it highly unlikely that Mr. Shephard has a direct line to LE or that they are choosing him, of all people, to share the fruits of their investigative analysis with.

If I recall, the parents have stated on a couple of occasions that they do NOT think someone could have entered through that window.

I would not be surprised if Fox has a direct line to LE considering they have been reporting locally on the case for days now.

The parents raised the possibility of the open window as point of entrance/exit and LE have explored the validity of that possibility. After all, if either parent is going to prosecuted, their defense team would raise it at trial as a possibility that LE ignored. LE are doing their job.

JMO

SarahW
10-10-2011, 03:45 PM
Not talking about the on-air personalities so much as I'm talking about Rupert Murdoch.

If Shep is the example, he's also the exception. Fox does good reporting. SHep isn't a reporter.

EllaMae
10-10-2011, 03:45 PM
This is where we all see things differently.

Everything they've done, has led them nowhere else. The restaging of the "break-in" may have been the clincher.

There's only one victim here: the child.




I strongly disagree with this statement. If the parents are innocent, they are indeed victims. Their other children are victims, as well as any extended family.

MissJames
10-10-2011, 03:45 PM
Haphazardly balanced analysis??

Any other MSM that's actually balanced.I don't know of any.

JeannaT
10-10-2011, 03:45 PM
First post, but I've been reading for days... :seeya:

Has anyone in MSM released the description of the "man" with the baby that was allegedly seen by the neighbor?

I can't get past the fact that not even a general description of this man was released - height, build, direction of travel, nothing. It's seemed strange since day 1 to me.

No, or at least I haven't seen one. I think maybe very early on they located the man and it was innocent. That's the only explanation I have for them not making any apparent attempts to locate him publicly.

jjenny
10-10-2011, 03:46 PM
Sounds like your dog's a coma-sleeper ;)

Our little dog would bark if anybody was nearby. And in fact when somebody walked into the yard during the night the dog barked like crazy and that person ran away.

IAM
10-10-2011, 03:46 PM
What if the baby was cold to the touch and clearly dead by the time they discovered her?

...and if the baby had visable sign of abuse. Parents do snap, hit their kid a bit too hard, bumps their head or shakes them. These things can be done out of frstration. Not premeditation. But, if it happens, a parent could panic and feel there is no other choice but to disappear their baby or go to jail and lose their other kids.

DianaElaine
10-10-2011, 03:46 PM
What if the baby was cold to the touch and clearly dead by the time they discovered her?

If it were my child, I'd STILL be screaming and calling 911!!!

Most likely in shock, and it would set in later, that they couldn't have helped her anyway. :(

Junebug99
10-10-2011, 03:46 PM
My aunt had her home broken into, drawers gone through, they ended up finding her cc's her purse and the keys to her car, which they stole. She had no idea until her grandson came home and asked her where her car was. Her little ankle biter didn't make a peep!

laytonian
10-10-2011, 03:46 PM
I am really going outside the box here - post from Craig's list - I know it says boys clothes, and Lisa is big for her age - but - oh, I don't know - it just caught my eye.

NEEDING UNWATED CHILDREN ITEMS CLOTHING AND TOYS PLEASE HELP!!!! (KCMO)

Hi everyone please dont delete my name is Maria i moved and was not able to take everything so i ended up losing alot of my childrens things i am not wotking now but i am looking for employment we are very low on cash all of our money goes torwards bills so if you dont mind not charging pleae give me a call 8163592070 thank you so much i do not have transportation right now i am on th bus please consider thank you so much please do not flag thank you also the sizes are 3t 4t 5t and they are boys ages 3 and 4 thank ou have a blessed day

• Location: KCMO

I smell scam.

Notice that Maria was able to take her phone, computer and pay for an internet connection ;)

If you Google the phone number, you'll find it's now Misti and she's trying to sell a pit bull (and it comes with a big bag of dogfood). Dog is up to date on all its shots. Grammar has improved considerably.

HatesSociopaths
10-10-2011, 03:46 PM
I just find it highly unlikely that Mr. Shephard has a direct line to LE or that they are choosing him, of all people, to share the fruits of their investigative analysis with.

If I recall, the parents have stated on a couple of occasions that they do NOT think someone could have entered through that window.

Here is one oddity regarding DB and the window. At 1:30 of this video, she says she left the computer room window open, and then completely breaks down, as if this was a huge mistake. They didn't rehearse this very well. MOO.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1208764392001/exclusive-parents-of-missing-baby-lisa-speak-out/?playlist_id=163706

MissJames
10-10-2011, 03:47 PM
I strongly disagree with this statement. If the parents are innocent, they are indeed victims. Their other children are victims, as well as any extended family.

Ed Smart and Marc Klass were both treated as suspects . Ed,for quite awhile,IIRC.
We are all just guessing at this point.

Trino
10-10-2011, 03:47 PM
There was a video posted yesterday that was very long showing all the different ways they could crawl through the window. What they were trying to prove or disprove I have no idea but they went through the window several times.

They needed a more agile person for the re-enactment - or someone who weighed less.

tlcya
10-10-2011, 03:47 PM
that's the same thing I said....like O.J.....lol.

I watched that guy "attempting" to crawl in the window and was rolling. All you needed was one jump from the ground, through the window and zippiddy...you're in. Especially someone who had been inside the house before and knew what was under the window inside. Probably take about 30 seconds...if that...IMO.

lol, thanks, thought I was alone in thinking that I wanted to just go to KC and help show that LEO how it needed to be done. I am not graceful or terribly fit, but I had to get in a window recently at someones house (lost key/locked out) and quite frankly the window was smaller and higher off the ground than the Irwin's window. I managed with no problems, did not make a big racket at all and only scraped up my stomach a little bit.

That was the reason for my post yesterday describing my height, age, etc. when watching the LEO trying to do it. Because it sure seemed to be made to look harder than I recall it being.

raeann
10-10-2011, 03:47 PM
that's the same thing I said....like O.J.....lol.

I watched that guy "attempting" to crawl in the window and was rolling. All you needed was one jump from the ground, through the window and zippiddy...you're in. Especially someone who had been inside the house before and knew what was under the window inside. Probably take about 30 seconds...if that...IMO.

That's what I thought.....one of my sons friends is thin and very athletic....I'm betting he could have jumped up, slid through and been in within a few seconds. In fact, I think he could have even gotten on that ledge, balanced and managed to turn sideways enough to go in feet first if he wanted. Just because some big guy in a uniform made it look hard, doesn't mean that it really is all that difficult.

jmo

Dee10
10-10-2011, 03:48 PM
Looks like Miz Grace is covering Lisa's case tonight.

jjenny
10-10-2011, 03:48 PM
My aunt had her home broken into, drawers gone through, they ended up finding her cc's her purse and the keys to her car, which they stole. She had no idea until her grandson came home and asked her where her car was. Her little ankle biter didn't make a peep!

Ours was a little ankle biter too, but she barked like crazy if anyone was anywhere near the house and nobody could have gotten in. That is, if we were home. If we were not home she was too scared to bark.

laytonian
10-10-2011, 03:49 PM
I strongly disagree with this statement. If the parents are innocent, they are indeed victims. Their other children are victims, as well as any extended family.

The endangered child has to come first.

Sadly, everyone else is collateral. Really.

I'd allow my entire life to be turned inside out, just to help find my child. Like Marc Klaas and John Walsh did. They begged to take polygraphs, did, passed and LE moved on.

jjenny
10-10-2011, 03:49 PM
They needed a more agile person for the re-enactment - or someone who weighed less.

The policeman got in, so it's clearly not impossible.

JeannaT
10-10-2011, 03:50 PM
They needed a more agile person for the re-enactment - or someone who weighed less.

Or even just someone who actually wanted to succeed at the attempt. We all know it's difficult - but if there was a thousand dollar bill laying in there for the taking if that cop could get in and get out the window, you know he could manage it.

katydid23
10-10-2011, 03:50 PM
I wish everyone who has had someone break into their house in the wee hours, and they didn't know it until later would come forward and storm FOX with emails.

I'll go first. Back when I was first married, my brother was going to come visit and arrive in the wee hours of the night so I left the front door unlocked. (Something that I do fairly regularly anyway out of carelessness). At the time we had the best watch dog I've ever had, a Jack Russell mix who NEVER missed a beat. He had several barks/growls which we came to be able to read very well, what he was communicating. Sliding anything at all past that dog was impossible. So anyway, my brother came in about 3, fixed himself a sandwich and went to bed. Fred the dog didn't alarm (something we still marvel at occasionally) and none of us woke up although I was trying to sleep lightly to hear when he arrived. When I woke up in the morning, I thought my brother had been delayed and had not arrived and was very surprised to see him there.

And of course I could list all the cases of kidnappings that are proved to have happened just the way Lisa was taken. IMHO. Coralrose Fullwood for one.

I agree with your points. Years later my grown kids have regaled me with their stories of the many times they snuck out when they were teens. I am actually surprised because I did used to peek into their rooms when I woke up to use the bathroom or let the dogs out, which is quite often. But apparently they were able to sneak in and out in the wee hours dozens of times and neither my husband or I ever heard them come or go. Probably because my DH's snoring drowns everything out.

panthera
10-10-2011, 03:50 PM
First post, but I've been reading for days... :seeya:

Has anyone in MSM released the description of the "man" with the baby that was allegedly seen by the neighbor?

I can't get past the fact that not even a general description of this man was released - height, build, direction of travel, nothing. It's seemed strange since day 1 to me.

:welcome:

No, haven't heard any description of this individual.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 03:51 PM
I smell scam.

Notice that Maria was able to take her phone, computer and pay for an internet connection ;)

If you Google the phone number, you'll find it's now Misti and she's trying to sell a pit bull (and it comes with a big bag of dogfood). Dog is up to date on all its shots. Grammar has improved considerably.

Still laughing at Misti and the pit bull. Too funny. Thank GOD it's had its shots, lolol.

MyBelle
10-10-2011, 03:51 PM
They needed a more agile person for the re-enactment - or someone who weighed less.

why? There is no way to determine the agility of the "kidnapper" if we don't know who it was.

JMO

SarahW
10-10-2011, 03:51 PM
I would not be surprised if Fox has a direct line to LE considering they have been reporting locally on the case for days now.

The parents raised the possibility of the open window as point of entrance/exit and LE have explored the validity of that possibility. After all, if either parent is going to prosecuted, their defense team would raise it at trial as a possibility that LE ignored. LE are doing their job.

JMO

The "defense team" would not be responsible for establishing the mode of entry, only that the scene was consistent with the observations they gave officers.

The window was tampered with. That's what they said. They also said it appeared to them that the window opening wasn't large enough to admit an intruder.

I do not, however, believe if it should somehow become a point of contention anyway, that the defense could not repeat the experiment with more success. Officer "tripper's" performance could be improved upon, I'm certain.

Kimster
10-10-2011, 03:52 PM
First post, but I've been reading for days... :seeya:

Has anyone in MSM released the description of the "man" with the baby that was allegedly seen by the neighbor?

I can't get past the fact that not even a general description of this man was released - height, build, direction of travel, nothing. It's seemed strange since day 1 to me.

:woohoo:
:welcome: TO WEBSLEUTHs!!!

:seeya:

Tuffy
10-10-2011, 03:52 PM
To subscribe to this possibility we would have to know when everyone was out of the house at the same time, and who knew JI would be working that night. Again, someone who knew the family.

MOO

The intruder IMO, was either:


Really stupid/desperate/dumb and lucky all at the same time.
- OR -

Someone who knew:


Dad was working late, really late that night.

That mom and boys were sleeping.

Mom would have the older boy, and not the baby in her bed.

That mom would close all the bedroom doors at night.

Which door was the door to the baby's room.

The three cell phones were the only phones in the house.

Baby Lisa would not cry or fight being taken out of her crib.

They would not be seen entering or exiting.

The dog, and neighbor's dogs wouldn't bark at them.

Oh, and also -

The person was also an expert at breaking and entering into occupied homes.
They left no fingerprints, hairs, or DNA at the scene.

MissJames
10-10-2011, 03:53 PM
I just find it highly unlikely that Mr. Shephard has a direct line to LE or that they are choosing him, of all people, to share the fruits of their investigative analysis with.

If I recall, the parents have stated on a couple of occasions that they do NOT think someone could have entered through that window.

My experience with media journalists is that they often get the facts wrong. I don't know if it's the short hand or what. I have had quotes (with actual quotation marks) attributed to me that I not only didn't say,but were wrong! I've quit giving interviews ,both TV and print. I only believe it if I heard the actual person say it. Even then,they edit ,so who knows? It's all about sensationalism,not the facts.
News shows are more entertainment than truth,IMO.

SarahW
10-10-2011, 03:54 PM
I agree with your points. Years later my grown kids have regaled me with their stories of the many times they snuck out when they were teens. I am actually surprised because I did used to peek into their rooms when I woke up to use the bathroom or let the dogs out, which is quite often. But apparently they were able to sneak in and out in the wee hours dozens of times and neither my husband or I ever heard them come or go. Probably because my DH's snoring drowns everything out.

Deborah is heavy and she smokes. I wouldn't be SHOCKED if she were a snorer herself.

EllaMae
10-10-2011, 03:54 PM
What if the baby was cold to the touch and clearly dead by the time they discovered her?

I have seen people refuse to accept that their loved one is beyond help, and keep insisting that something can be done. It just depends on their ability to accept the reality of a death, and then cope with a tragedy.

Denial is sometimes a coping mechanism used until a person has time to process a loss, and gather the strength to deal with reality.

Junebug99
10-10-2011, 03:54 PM
Ours was a little ankle biter too, but she barked like crazy if anyone was anywhere near the house and nobody could have gotten in. That is, if we were home. If we were not home she was too scared to bark.

We have a little Jack Russell and he goes ballistic until he knows for sure who it is. My aunt was sleeping at the time, the dog must have slept through it too.

keeponsearching
10-10-2011, 03:55 PM
I have one coma sleeping dog. One night I was home alone and heard a noise, I jumped right up out of sleep and there is my dog snoring on the bed still. I think its very possible that if you are quiet enough you could get pass her. Just not my new puppy who barks with each leaf that falls.
It would be really sad if the baby overdosed on meds and not call for help. Or had a reaction to the medicine. Over the counter drugs can result in death, if given wrong dosage or the wrong meds. Example, you are not suppose to give babies multi symptom medicine for colds.
I am hoping Lisa comes home today.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 03:55 PM
Officer "tripper's" performance could be improved upon, I'm certain.
snip-snip-snip

Lololol. Officer Tripper! Great name.

Tuffy
10-10-2011, 03:55 PM
I smell scam.

Notice that Maria was able to take her phone, computer and pay for an internet connection ;)

If you Google the phone number, you'll find it's now Misti and she's trying to sell a pit bull (and it comes with a big bag of dogfood). Dog is up to date on all its shots. Grammar has improved considerably.

I'm gonna call right now! I want a dog that can talk. Especially if his grammar has improved considerably!

:floorlaugh:

joyless
10-10-2011, 03:55 PM
What if the baby was cold to the touch and clearly dead by the time they discovered her?

That is what I was thinking. The parent found her in crib...freaked and called someone...parent felt guilty for some reason...left something in the crib...or baby got/fell out of crib...and died for some reason...so parent does not want cell phone found...evidence of late nite call. Parent is afraid the other kids will be taken because of neglect :twocents:...Only My Opinion...no suspects...not accusing.

katydid23
10-10-2011, 03:55 PM
No, or at least I haven't seen one. I think maybe very early on they located the man and it was innocent. That's the only explanation I have for them not making any apparent attempts to locate him publicly.

But wouldn't they say that. Instead they say " it didn't pan out." That does not mean imo, that they found the guy and he was a neighborhood dad. That means they have no information and do not know anything more about it. imoo

Dr.Fessel
10-10-2011, 03:56 PM
lol, thanks, thought I was alone in thinking that I wanted to just go to KC and help show that LEO how it needed to be done. I am not graceful or terribly fit, but I had to get in a window recently at someones house (lost key/locked out) and quite frankly the window was smaller and higher off the ground than the Irwin's window. I managed with no problems, did not make a big racket at all and only scraped up my stomach a little bit.

That was the reason for my post yesterday describing my height, age, etc. when watching the LEO trying to do it. Because it sure seemed to be made to look harder than I recall it being.

I agree with you 100%. Did you watch that long video they had of the reenactiment? I am having trouble finding it in my history. At one point the lady filming it really zooms in on the guy standing inside the room after he crawled in and he is just standing there. Whole thing is really weird.

The whole thing looked like a show to me for someone in the neighborhood maybe.

katydid23
10-10-2011, 03:57 PM
That is what I was thinking. The parent found her in crib...freaked and called someone...parent felt guilty for some reason...left something in the crib...or baby got/fell out of crib...and died for some reason...so parent does not want cell phone found...evidence of late nite call. Parent is afraid the other kids will be taken because of neglect :twocents:...Only My Opinion...no suspects...not accusing.

It is just hard for me to imagine WHO one can call to come and dispose of a dead child. That is a pretty big favor to ask of anyone.

CN2Souls
10-10-2011, 03:57 PM
I find it more Believable if:

the lights had been off

the cell phone were still on the counter

and one of the Back windows were open

and Back door unlocked and open...



But the way they said it was....:waitasec:

Elley Mae
10-10-2011, 03:57 PM
Deborah is heavy and she smokes. I wouldn't be SHOCKED if she were a snorer herself.

Well then there goes a large part of that child support check

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 03:57 PM
I'm gonna call right now! I want a dog that can talk. Especially if his grammar has improved considerably!

:floorlaugh:
I missed that abrupt segue! I think I've cracked a rib laughing. No more dangling prepositions from Fido!

SnoopyDoobyDoo
10-10-2011, 03:58 PM
I haven't ben able to really keep up with these threads, so I apologise if these have already been discussed and dissected to death, but two thoughts-

The first being how somebody would know the house is "safer" because dad isn't there- if he drives a company van, it would presumably be easy to tell when he's there and when he isn't. Does anybody know if he has had the vehicle for awhile or if it was a relatively recent perk that somebody might notice outside the house?

Two- We're all trying to figure out why a ten month old was kidnapped. Given her stats* and those birthday party pictures (where you can see that she is relatively tall and doesn't have much of the "baby" look), if it was a crime of oppourtunity she might have been mistaken for an older child. Which really isn't a good thing.

*And these parents could describe her down to the location of a bug bite, so I don't believe that they were unobservant.

jjenny
10-10-2011, 03:58 PM
I agree with you 100%. Did you watch that long video they had of the reenactiment? I am having trouble finding it in my history. At one point the lady filming it really zooms in on the guy standing inside the room after he crawled in and he is just standing there. Whole thing is really weird.

The whole thing looked like a show to me for someone in the neighborhood maybe.

The officer got in. Maybe it wasn't graceful but I really don't understand the idea that it somehow showed it was not possible to get in through the window. It's clearly is possible. It's big enough for someone to get in. Now, did someone get in? That's a whole another story.

tlcya
10-10-2011, 03:58 PM
My experience with media journalists is that they often get the facts wrong. I don't know if it's the short hand or what. I have had quotes (with actual quotation marks) attributed to me that I not only didn't say,but were wrong! I've quit giving interviews ,both TV and print. I only believe it if I heard the actual person say it. Even then,they edit ,so who knows? It's all about sensationalism,not the facts.
News shows are more entertainment than truth,IMO.

Couldn't agree with you more. I think all news sources lose alot in their translations. I try to watch Fox and CNN and somewhere, in between the two extremes, lies the truth of the matter.

Your comment about the quotes is really disturbing though, because when someone is quoted, I expect that to be accurate :eek:!

I don't blame you for choosing not to give interview if that is the case. I don't think that I would want to either.

MissJames
10-10-2011, 03:58 PM
I agree with your points. Years later my grown kids have regaled me with their stories of the many times they snuck out when they were teens. I am actually surprised because I did used to peek into their rooms when I woke up to use the bathroom or let the dogs out, which is quite often. But apparently they were able to sneak in and out in the wee hours dozens of times and neither my husband or I ever heard them come or go. Probably because my DH's snoring drowns everything out.

When I was growing up we lived in a house that had a balcony just above my parents bedroom window. A pine tree grew to the side of it. My sister was 6 years older than me and had friends sneak in by the balcony. How did my parents not hear anything?
I was a real scaredy cat and made my dad chop the tree down.

MyBelle
10-10-2011, 03:58 PM
The "defense team" would not be responsible for establishing the mode of entry, only that the scene was consistent with the observations they gave officers.

The window was tampered with. That's what they said. They also said it appeared to them that the window opening wasn't large enough to admit an intruder.

I do not, however, believe if it should somehow become a point of contention anyway, that the defense could not repeat the experiment with more success. Officer "tripper's" performance could be improved upon, I'm certain.

A defense team tries to point out other possibilities in order to provide reasonable doubt. LE will have a video of a re-enactment that shoots down that possibility. Of course, the defense team is free to provide their own re-enactment as Scott Peterson's tried with the boat. We all know how well that worked out for the defense.

JMO

JeannaT
10-10-2011, 03:58 PM
But wouldn't they say that. Instead they say " it didn't pan out." That does not mean imo, that they found the guy and he was a neighborhood dad. That means they have no information and do not know anything more about it. imoo

Hmmm, I don't know. I think it could be seen as a sighting of a baby that wasn't Baby Lisa, so saying "the tip didn't pan out" could be used the same as they use it if someone thinks they saw the baby in public.

Who knows, though, they are very tightlipped.

Cher352
10-10-2011, 03:58 PM
Oh My, 150 guests, come join us and give your point of view, we need ideas.
You know you want to :D

Maybe that 150 is half of the 300 LE force working on this case......


JUST KIDDING!!! :great:

goldringstx
10-10-2011, 03:58 PM
Thanks for the welcome!

Another issue that is bugging me is the photos released of the house with the items in the crib (tub & boxes). Does this mean that LE has already released the house and that family has already come in to change/clean. I just don't see how LE can be sure that they have collected all the forensic evidence already. Am I the only one that finds this strange? I would think that the house would remain sealed and/or off limits for evidence preservation purposes.

Tuffy
10-10-2011, 03:59 PM
What if the baby was cold to the touch and clearly dead by the time they discovered her?

EMTs say, "a child isn't dead, until s/he's warm and dead." Children can be revived, especially in a drowning situation, after quite a while if they are cold.

IAM
10-10-2011, 03:59 PM
I hope LE did a very intensive examination of that window sill before they staged their breakin. If perp had of entered that window, there most likely would be some clothing fibers rubbed off into the side of house or sill. It would be a tight squeeze up and into that window. Fibers could be on the window itself (LE said window fell down onto his legs). Now, there will also be the officer's fibers. So, I hope they really examined it well first.

Junebug99
10-10-2011, 03:59 PM
I'm on the fence at this point, I hate to accuse innocent people but it's hard not to be suspicious at this point. Praying she is found safe and sound...

JeannaT
10-10-2011, 03:59 PM
A defense team tries to point out other possibilities in order to provide reasonable doubt. LE will have a video of a re-enactment that shoots down that possibility. Of course, the defense team is free to provide their own re-enactment as Scott Peterson's tried with the boat. We all know how well that worked out for the defense.

JMO

That was a juror who attempted the reinactment, not the defense, if I remember correctly. A juror jumped into the boat and tried to get it rocking.

gliving
10-10-2011, 03:59 PM
They needed a more agile person for the re-enactment - or someone who weighed less.

LOL I was waiting for his pants to split.

EllaMae
10-10-2011, 04:00 PM
Ed Smart and Marc Klass were both treated as suspects . Ed,for quite awhile,IIRC.
We are all just guessing at this point.



I did say "IF" the parents are innocent....

But Ed Smart and Marc Klaas are still victims, as are their extended family members, the siblings, and the mothers of Elizabeth and Polly. In Polly's case I'd include the other little girls who were there during the kidnapping.

Renea
10-10-2011, 04:00 PM
The intruder IMO, was either:


Really stupid/desperate/dumb and lucky all at the same time.
- OR -

Someone who knew:


Dad was working late, really late that night.

That mom and boys were sleeping.

Mom would have the older boy, and not the baby in her bed.

That mom would close all the bedroom doors at night.

Which door was the door to the baby's room.

The three cell phones were the only phones in the house.

Baby Lisa would not cry or fight being taken out of her crib.

They would not be seen entering or exiting.

The dog, and neighbor's dogs wouldn't bark at them.

Oh, and also -

The person was also an expert at breaking and entering into occupied homes.
They left no fingerprints, hairs, or DNA at the scene.

It seems to me there would have been a shoe print outside that window... and inside the home... also, a fiber from the kidnappers shirt up against that widow sill....

IAM
10-10-2011, 04:01 PM
Thanks for the welcome!

Another issue that is bugging me is the photos released of the house with the items in the crib (tub & boxes). Does this mean that LE has already released the house and that family has already come in to change/clean. I just don't see how LE can be sure that they have collected all the forensic evidence already. Am I the only one that finds this strange? I would think that the house would remain sealed and/or off limits for evidence preservation purposes.

I still don't understand why mom is still toting the Barney doll. It should be in a laboratory being tested for evidence. Lisa slept with the Barney doll.

JeannaT
10-10-2011, 04:02 PM
I hope LE did a very intensive examination of that window sill before they staged their breakin. If perp had of entered that window, there most likely would be some clothing fibers rubbed off into the side of house or sill. It would be a tight squeeze up and into that window. Fibers could be on the window itself (LE said window fell down onto his legs). Now, there will also be the officer's fibers. So, I hope they really examined it well first.

I think they did. They were out there with fingerprint kits and cameras, and then later with a little evidence vacuum, going over the window sill.

In my opinion, it would be visually obvious if anyone had gone in or out through that window sill. Compared to the other windows in the house, it would be dust free and you should be able to see clear areas where it was completely clean. Other outdoor window sills of the house would have a very even coating of dust and debris.

Jacie Estes
10-10-2011, 04:02 PM
Yes, he did. His little brother still isn't speaking to him because he really liked the girl and I'm ready to kill him for making me do all that work for a girl he didn't even plan to date for another 8 hours. My time would have been much better spent here trying to keep up with the thread. :banghead:

NOW I understand it; I thought he had spilled the food on her or worse. :)

BetteDavisEyes
10-10-2011, 04:03 PM
I agree with you 100%. Did you watch that long video they had of the reenactiment? I am having trouble finding it in my history. At one point the lady filming it really zooms in on the guy standing inside the room after he crawled in and he is just standing there. Whole thing is really weird.

The whole thing looked like a show to me for someone in the neighborhood maybe.

I LOL at the guy who did the dive through the window. Wonder how he landed?

CN2Souls
10-10-2011, 04:03 PM
I hope LE did a very intensive examination of that window sill before they staged their breakin. If perp had of entered that window, there most likely would be some clothing fibers rubbed off into the side of house or sill. It would be a tight squeeze up and into that window. Fibers could be on the window itself (LE said window fell down onto his legs). Now, there will also be the officer's fibers. So, I hope they really examined it well first.


THANK YOU!!! THANK YOU!!! :clap:

TexasLil
10-10-2011, 04:04 PM
That is what I was thinking. The parent found her in crib...freaked and called someone...parent felt guilty for some reason...left something in the crib...or baby got/fell out of crib...and died for some reason...so parent does not want cell phone found...evidence of late nite call. Parent is afraid the other kids will be taken because of neglect :twocents:...Only My Opinion...no suspects...not accusing.

I was leaning toward a fall out of the crib scenario this morning after I saw a picture of the actual crib and the height of the mattress. My granddaughter is 9 months old and not nearly as tall as Lisa. I had her mattress dropped almost to the lowest level two months ago when she began to sit up and pull up on things.

The picture wasn't very clear but it did appear the mattress was only low enough for the two tub containers (thinner kind) to reach the top of the rail. IMO Lisa was tall enough to have stood up and toppled over the rail.

After having these thoughts today I'm going home and drop my grandaughter's mattress all the way down!!!

MissJames
10-10-2011, 04:05 PM
Couldn't agree with you more. I think all news sources lose alot in their translations. I try to watch Fox and CNN and somewhere, in between the two extremes, lies the truth of the matter.

Your comment about the quotes is really disturbing though, because when someone is quoted, I expect that to be accurate :eek:!

I don't blame you for choosing not to give interview if that is the case. I don't think that I would want to either.
BBM
It's true and happened repeatedly. I can't tell you how frustrating it is. Mostly stories about our family or medically fragile foster children. My son was in a fabulous program at our Children's hospital and I've been an advocate locally and now do some work in DC.
I love being an advocate for something that's efficient,saves taxpayer money and works for the kids!
But no more interviews . I see why bloggers do what they do.
I take all the news stories with a grain of salt.That's why I love the factual records WSers come up with.

tlcya
10-10-2011, 04:05 PM
Thanks for the welcome!

Another issue that is bugging me is the photos released of the house with the items in the crib (tub & boxes). Does this mean that LE has already released the house and that family has already come in to change/clean. I just don't see how LE can be sure that they have collected all the forensic evidence already. Am I the only one that finds this strange? I would think that the house would remain sealed and/or off limits for evidence preservation purposes.

The video (the photos are still clips of the video) of the interior was taken after LE had had access to the home for a number of days. The footage of the crib most likely shows how it was left after LE's searching in the home and is not an accurate depiction of what it looked like when baby Lisa was in it.

We have all been puzzled by the recent renewed searching of the home as one would imagine that they had done all the evidence collection before releasing it for this video to be taken by MSM.

For what its worth, the parents have been to the home but are apparently not staying there. They are staying in a hotel, not wanting to be at the home right now. I believe they have been staying at a hotel since this whole thing started, but do not know that to be fact.

curiousc
10-10-2011, 04:06 PM
It seems to me there would have been a shoe print outside that window... and inside the home... also, a fiber from the kidnappers shirt up against that widow sill....

Another good point! Were there any shoe prints in or outside the home?

CN2Souls
10-10-2011, 04:08 PM
It seems to me there would have been a shoe print outside that window... and inside the home... also, a fiber from the kidnappers shirt up against that widow sill....


THANK YOU!!! THANK YOU!!! :clap:

EllaMae
10-10-2011, 04:08 PM
That is what I was thinking. The parent found her in crib...freaked and called someone...parent felt guilty for some reason...left something in the crib...or baby got/fell out of crib...and died for some reason...so parent does not want cell phone found...evidence of late nite call. Parent is afraid the other kids will be taken because of neglect :twocents:...Only My Opinion...no suspects...not accusing.



We had a discussion about falls from cribs on here a few threads back. It is highly unlikely that a 10 month old would even be injured from a fall out of a crib, and even more unlikely that such a fall would kill her. It just doesn't happen.

I still say that unless a parent was drunk, on drugs,abusive or engaged in some kind of illegal activity.....a loving parent would call 911 in case of a serious accident.
Debbie and Jeremy are by all accounts good and loving parents. I just don't see that scenario happening as it stands now. If more information comes out about their habits and lifestyle that is damning, then I will certainly change my mind.

uvamerica
10-10-2011, 04:08 PM
First post, but I've been reading for days... :seeya:

Has anyone in MSM released the description of the "man" with the baby that was allegedly seen by the neighbor?

I can't get past the fact that not even a general description of this man was released - height, build, direction of travel, nothing. It's seemed strange since day 1 to me.

:welcome: :welcome4: :wagon:

dog.gone.cute
10-10-2011, 04:09 PM
It seems to me there would have been a shoe print outside that window... and inside the home... also, a fiber from the kidnappers shirt up against that widow sill....


BBM: Exactly ... and IMO, that is one of the first things LE would look for ...

IMO ... there would be some mud/grass traces from outside to inside.

MOO ...

askfornina
10-10-2011, 04:09 PM
http://www.heycameraman.net/?p=1406

some pictures of the left side of the house here. shows the basement area and the metal building in the backyard. these pictures look to be from just a few minutes ago.

goldringstx
10-10-2011, 04:10 PM
The video (the photos are still clips of the video) of the interior was taken after LE had had access to the home for a number of days. The footage of the crib most likely shows how it was left after LE's searching in the home and is not an accurate depiction of what it looked like when baby Lisa was in it.

We have all been puzzled by the recent renewed searching of the home as one would imagine that they had done all the evidence collection before releasing it for this video to be taken by MSM.

For what its worth, the parents have been to the home but are apparently not staying there. They are staying in a hotel, not wanting to be at the home right now. I believe they have been staying at a hotel since this whole thing started, but do not know that to be fact.


Do we know if the confiscated the sheets that were on the bed, etc as evidence?

twiggles
10-10-2011, 04:10 PM
Another good point! Were there any shoe prints in or outside the home?

Maybe the child was passed out the window to someone as opposed to a person entering thru the window?

vasportsmom
10-10-2011, 04:10 PM
When I was growing up we lived in a house that had a balcony just above my parents bedroom window. A pine tree grew to the side of it. My sister was 6 years older than me and had friends sneak in by the balcony. How did my parents not hear anything?
I was a real scaredy cat and made my dad chop the tree down.

Many years ago I moved into a condo that had a balcony right off the master bedroom. Having just got out of a bad relationship I was really worried about that part and had several cop friends check it out for me. They all assured me that there was absolutely no way anyone could climb up to that balcony and that I would be perfectly safe there so I put down the required money and moved in. My very first night there I awoke to someone knocking on the balcony door. My very petite little sister had climbed right up the side of the building and onto the balcony because I hadn't heard her knocking and she was worried I would be afraid my first night alone in a new place. I never felt safe there again and soon moved out of state with little word to anyone.

panthera
10-10-2011, 04:10 PM
It seems to me there would have been a shoe print outside that window... and inside the home... also, a fiber from the kidnappers shirt up against that widow sill....

Exactly. Honestly, however, I believe this window is a red herring. First of all, the window screen was bent in from the outside, yet still in the window frame. If an intruder had actually gone into the house through this window, wouldn't the screen be somewhere on the ground, outside? Who would take the time to replace the screen?

:waitasec:

JeannieC
10-10-2011, 04:10 PM
I don't understand what exactly they're unsuccessful at "reenacting". If they literally don't think someone could get in that window, go to the baby, and get the baby back out the window they're wrong. They're wrong.

But I do think it's unlikely, and it's requires a little bit of coordination and strength. I think someone walked in the door, turned on some lights, took the cell phones, took the baby, opened the window considering going out it, and then decided against that and went out the front door instead. If they need me to, I'd be glad to come show them how. ;D

WAIT A MINUTE, WAIT A MINUTE! LET ME GET MY CAMERA! I'll go with you!:floorlaugh:

Dr.Fessel
10-10-2011, 04:10 PM
Ok, here is the video of LE going through a window several times.

http://www.kctv5.com/story/15647944/police-again-questioning-missing

I really wonder what the filming is about once the person is inside.

IAM
10-10-2011, 04:11 PM
Has anyone heard how the crib was positioned upon finding the baby gone? A crib rail should be all the way raised up while child is in it sleeping. Now, was it still up when they found her gone? Any crib I have ever leaned over would creak a bit unless I let the rail down. The mom says she had baby monitor on. A creaking crib rail would surely come across on that monitor. Also, it would be difficult to lift a baby that size up and over the side of crib with rail up? This is just another thing that bothers me.

CN2Souls
10-10-2011, 04:12 PM
BBM: Exactly ... and IMO, that is one of the first things LE would look for ...

IMO ... there would be some mud/grass traces from outside to inside.

MOO ...

Thank you, Dog.Gone.Cute.

I feel there are really good reason that LE is questioning the parents as hard as they are...JMO... MOO

keeponsearching
10-10-2011, 04:12 PM
I do not think the parents are involved. But I like to hear all theories of what could of happen. Disposing the cell because of a late night call, would not make much sense since LE can pull up the account, or they themselves could pull up the account. Unless they do not understand that.
The lights on, I still can not figure out which lights. The only thing I can think of, the abductor did not feel threaten. Someone mention maybe the mom snores, which could put ease at a intruder.
Where did this kitten come from?

tlcya
10-10-2011, 04:13 PM
Do we know if the confiscated the sheets that were on the bed, etc as evidence?

No. As seasoned case watchers, we would assume that LE would have collected sheets, dusted the crib for prints, etc. But we do not know that as LE is keeping that information to themselves. They often do, so we can only assume and speculate at this point.

curiousc
10-10-2011, 04:13 PM
Maybe the child was passed out the window to someone as opposed to a person entering thru the window?

Someone's fresh shoe prints should be outside the window then too.

SarahW
10-10-2011, 04:15 PM
Has anyone heard how the crib was positioned upon finding the baby gone? A crib rail should be all the way raised up while child is in it sleeping. Now, was it still up when they found her gone? Any crib I have ever leaned over would creak a bit unless I let the rail down. The mom says she had baby monitor on. A creaking crib rail would surely come across on that monitor. Also, it would be difficult to lift a baby that size up and over the side of crib with rail up? This is just another thing that bothers me.

Modern cribs do not have lowering rails anymore. Drop-side out, fixed rails in.
And as other have noticed (and complained about) the mattress height in the photograph available is at a convenient height for lifting out a heavy infant.

MyBelle
10-10-2011, 04:15 PM
That was a juror who attempted the reinactment, not the defense, if I remember correctly. A juror jumped into the boat and tried to get it rocking.

The defense did their own video.

BetteDavisEyes
10-10-2011, 04:16 PM
Just saw a very brief report about the Lisa Irwin story on my local (Detroit) news - mostly about the reenactment. Inside Edition comes on at 4:30, and the case will be covered on that show.

KivaSupporter
10-10-2011, 04:16 PM
I have not seen this mentioned. Please excuse me if it has.

Just a theory: The mother might have been drinking that night. She was deep asleep or passed out, so she did not hear anything. Therefore, guilt and suspicious behavior?

Possible?

JMO

vasportsmom
10-10-2011, 04:16 PM
NOW I understand it; I thought he had spilled the food on her or worse. :)

LOL, yes I had to go back and edit that post a few minutes after I posted it because I noticed that it made no freaking sense.

Just K
10-10-2011, 04:16 PM
After this amount of time wouldn't the phones be dead?

Not to be contradictory, just a question since I never go that long without charging mine.

Well, IDK but if they were brand new, as the mom, DI, said and she had been programming them...maybe they were then left on the charger but not used thereafter...except maybe for that one call at 2:32 AM. Could be that she turned them off while they were on the charger and then never turned one or both of them back on. But with the new phones they might still ping but not ring. IDK...but it is curious that they have now been back to the backyard three or four times.

panthera
10-10-2011, 04:17 PM
Has anyone heard how the crib was positioned upon finding the baby gone? A crib rail should be all the way raised up while child is in it sleeping. Now, was it still up when they found her gone? Any crib I have ever leaned over would creak a bit unless I let the rail down. The mom says she had baby monitor on. A creaking crib rail would surely come across on that monitor. Also, it would be difficult to lift a baby that size up and over the side of crib with rail up? This is just another thing that bothers me.

Another thing. She said the baby monitor was on. So was it still on when they discovered Lisa missing? An intruder who takes the time to lift three cell phones likely would turn off the baby monitor so the person on the other end couldn't hear anything going on.

MissJames
10-10-2011, 04:17 PM
I did say "IF" the parents are innocent....

But Ed Smart and Marc Klaas are still victims, as are their extended family members, the siblings, and the mothers of Elizabeth and Polly. In Polly's case I'd include the other little girls who were there during the kidnapping.

This is one of the few times I'm sitting on the fence ,but tipping towards parental involvement.

I really don't understand the idea of an accident,though.

"oops.The baby's dead .Where can we hide her? "
No way. They would call 911 unless it was intentional. In todays world we have technology and almost everyone knows at least a rudimentary way of performing CPR.
I can't see any accident leading to a kidnapping story .Not for Casey and not for Lisa's parents.
Either they did something to her or she was really taken.JMO

gliving
10-10-2011, 04:17 PM
Another good point! Were there any shoe prints in or outside the home?

There are now!

I wish they had taken the window frame off and tested it for trace forensic evidence. Even if a perp wears gloves, they leave a residue. I really think LE thought they had the cat in the bag. Now they have to back track, hence the searches yesterday. I still marvel at their searching the roof guttering at night with a flashlight!

lauriej
10-10-2011, 04:17 PM
http://livewire.kmbc.com/Event/Live_Blo ... -Month-Old (http://livewire.kmbc.com/Event/Live_Blog_Amber_Alert_Issued_For_Missing_10-Month-Old)
---Live Updates--
KMBC's Peggy Breit: Jeremy's sister says she's heard of two instances where investigators have been checking reports of a family with a baby. One was a tip that a couple with a little boy was checking out at a store, but they were buying girls' clothes. The other was a friend who said police came to her door and asked her to prove that her 10-month old daughter was really hers. Police will not comment on specific tips, but will say that they've checked out tips about babies, and nothing has panned out.

by Brian Foster - KMBC.com...

EllaMae
10-10-2011, 04:18 PM
The endangered child has to come first.

Sadly, everyone else is collateral. Really.

I'd allow my entire life to be turned inside out, just to help find my child. Like Marc Klaas and John Walsh did. They begged to take polygraphs, did, passed and LE moved on.



Having the endangered child come first is a different thing than having her designated as the only victim.


Debbie DID take a polygraph. She did not refuse. And I think they have allowed their lives to be turned inside out. They have allowed access to their home as well.

tlcya
10-10-2011, 04:18 PM
Someone's fresh shoe prints should be outside the window then too.

has it been damp or rainy in the area then? I haven't seen anything posted regarding rainfall totals in the area or if there had been recent rains. If there have been, then yes, it is more likely that an intruder would leave footprints, mud. etc.

If KC has been experiencing the drought type weather that many states have this year, then it is just as likely that no footprints/mud, etc were evident.

Any of our locals that could chime in regarding recent rainfall in the area?

IAM
10-10-2011, 04:19 PM
Modern cribs do not have lowering rails anymore.
And as other have noticed (and complained about) the mattress height in the photograph available is at a convenient height for lifting out a heavy infant.

Ok, thank you. It has been a while since I had a baby (daughter in college) :)
So, the mother had the mattress raised to that height for a 10mth old? She could fall out easily? I would look for any other pictures they might have of crib and look at the mattress height in those pics. Also I would ask relatives, friends, the boys if that is the normal level that crib mattress was left at. It just seems odd.

panthera
10-10-2011, 04:19 PM
Well, IDK but if they were brand new, as the mom, DI, said and she had been programming them...maybe they were then left on the charger but not used thereafter...except maybe for that one call at 2:32 AM. Could be that she turned them off while they were on the charger and then never turned one or both of them back on. But with the new phones they might still ping but not ring. IDK...but it is curious that they have now been back to the backyard three or four times.

My understand was one of the phones was JI's, one was DB's broken phone, and the third one was a phone that had been given to her and she was attempting to program it. Not clear if the two working phones were connected to chargers or not, however, all three were together on the kitchen counter.

lauriej
10-10-2011, 04:19 PM
There are now!

I wish they had taken the window frame off and tested it for trace forensic evidence. Even if a perp wears gloves, they leave a residue. I really think LE thought they had the cat in the bag. Now they have to back track, hence the searches yesterday. I still marvel at their searching the roof guttering at night with a flashlight!

..we did see them on tuesday , in their white protective suits---taking evidence , with a hand held device of some sort, from that particular window.

..they were shown there for quite some time actually.

keeponsearching
10-10-2011, 04:19 PM
Another thing. She said the baby monitor was on. So was it still on when they discovered Lisa missing? An intruder who takes the time to lift three cell phones likely would turn off the baby monitor so the person on the other end couldn't hear anything going on.

If my baby monitor is turned off, from the childrens room, it makes a loud crackling noise on the other end, which is in my room.

curiousc
10-10-2011, 04:19 PM
There are now!

I wish they had taken the window frame off and tested it for trace forensic evidence. Even if a perp wears gloves, they leave a residue. I really think LE thought they had the cat in the bag. Now they have to back track, hence the searches yesterday. I still marvel at their searching the roof guttering at night with a flashlight!

That's the first time I ever saw LE up on a roof searching the gutters....but it's probably not been the first time it's ever done.

The gutters could be a good place to hide things, tbh.

JeannieC
10-10-2011, 04:21 PM
LOL I was waiting for his pants to split.

Like this: http://youtu.be/L9upWn_eNYs and on national tv!

MaciBean
10-10-2011, 04:21 PM
Has anyone heard how the crib was positioned upon finding the baby gone? A crib rail should be all the way raised up while child is in it sleeping. Now, was it still up when they found her gone? Any crib I have ever leaned over would creak a bit unless I let the rail down. The mom says she had baby monitor on. A creaking crib rail would surely come across on that monitor. Also, it would be difficult to lift a baby that size up and over the side of crib with rail up? This is just another thing that bothers me.

I realized I've used my parenting examples several times, but here's another one. When my kids are sick (or have been sick), that first night that they actually sleep and sleep WELL, I sleep. I've woken up several times to my daughter screaming and actually thought to myself, "I wonder how long she's been doing that." lol So, not hearing EVERYTHING, IMO, would be normal.

goldringstx
10-10-2011, 04:21 PM
Another thing. She said the baby monitor was on. So was it still on when they discovered Lisa missing? An intruder who takes the time to lift three cell phones likely would turn off the baby monitor so the person on the other end couldn't hear anything going on.

If the "mommy" end of our baby monitor is on, and the "baby" end gets unplugged or turned off, mine goes to extremely loud static immediately. Even if the volume is low, it becomes loud enough to hear throughout my 3100 sq foot house.

Ginny
10-10-2011, 04:21 PM
Has anyone heard how the crib was positioned upon finding the baby gone? A crib rail should be all the way raised up while child is in it sleeping. Now, was it still up when they found her gone? Any crib I have ever leaned over would creak a bit unless I let the rail down. The mom says she had baby monitor on. A creaking crib rail would surely come across on that monitor. Also, it would be difficult to lift a baby that size up and over the side of crib with rail up? This is just another thing that bothers me.

Cribs with moving sides have been outlawed in the US for while now so unless they purchased way before Lisa was born or 2nd hand, I doubt they had a crib with moving sides.

davehead21
10-10-2011, 04:21 PM
I don't think this has anything to do with the case but I have seen several people make reference today that Deborah is a smoker. How is that known?

EllaMae
10-10-2011, 04:21 PM
Another thing. She said the baby monitor was on. So was it still on when they discovered Lisa missing? An intruder who takes the time to lift three cell phones likely would turn off the baby monitor so the person on the other end couldn't hear anything going on.

If you turn it off....it makes a big static noise on the parents' monitor, and would alert the parent that the monitor in the baby's room has been turned off.

Prancy
10-10-2011, 04:21 PM
Exactly. Honestly, however, I believe this window is a red herring. First of all, the window screen was bent in from the outside, yet still in the window frame. If an intruder had actually gone into the house through this window, wouldn't the screen be somewhere on the ground, outside? Who would take the time to replace the screen?

:waitasec:

I saw the parents in several short interviews this weekend. The dad said the screen was bent slightly, but that it had not been removed or bent enough for someone to enter through the window.

Ginny
10-10-2011, 04:22 PM
If my baby monitor is turned off, from the childrens room, it makes a loud crackling noise on the other end, which is in my room.

As does mine.

sorrell skye
10-10-2011, 04:23 PM
Regarding the re-enactment of the alleged break-in through the window:

Since the psychological profile of someone kidnapping a baby is likely to be a woman who seeks a baby to raise as her own, why didn't LE have one of those female officers try to climb in the window?

The average male is 5'10" tall. I have no idea how tall those officers were, but they both looked @ least 5'10", and they had noticeable difficulty gaining entry & required assistance.

The average female is, I believe, 5'4" tall. If the female officer who videoed the re-enactment is 5'4" tall, there's no way she would have been able to climb up into that window on her own (without someone giving her a boost or without something to step up onto - and even then, I think it would be very challenging), judging by her height in relation to the windowsill - it was waaaay too high.

Geez - if they're going to do a re-enactment - then at least cover ALL the possibilities.

Soulmagent
10-10-2011, 04:23 PM
I am really going outside the box here - post from Craig's list - I know it says boys clothes, and Lisa is big for her age - but - oh, I don't know - it just caught my eye.

NEEDING UNWATED CHILDREN ITEMS CLOTHING AND TOYS PLEASE HELP!!!! (KCMO)

Hi everyone please dont delete my name is Maria i moved and was not able to take everything so i ended up losing alot of my childrens things i am not wotking now but i am looking for employment we are very low on cash all of our money goes torwards bills so if you dont mind not charging pleae give me a call 8163592070 thank you so much i do not have transportation right now i am on th bus please consider thank you so much please do not flag thank you also the sizes are 3t 4t 5t and they are boys ages 3 and 4 thank ou have a blessed day

• Location: KCMO



This ad disturbs me. let the whole world know you need money and have two boys and ask not to be flaged. I hope you flagged it, She can use that number she has to call a chruch group and not strangers on the interenet who might not really want to help but still want to contact her.

GourmetSoy
10-10-2011, 04:25 PM
Has anyone heard how the crib was positioned upon finding the baby gone? A crib rail should be all the way raised up while child is in it sleeping. Now, was it still up when they found her gone? Any crib I have ever leaned over would creak a bit unless I let the rail down. The mom says she had baby monitor on. A creaking crib rail would surely come across on that monitor. Also, it would be difficult to lift a baby that size up and over the side of crib with rail up? This is just another thing that bothers me.

I was trying to figure out if the crib was a drop side from the pics and I'm not sure. Incidently, ALL drop side cribs have been recalled and are no longer sold. When I did have a drop side crib I never lowered the rail, just reached over and I had a large baby too. I'm 5'2 and never had issues with creaking. If it was a man he probably would have been taller and able to reach up and over with no creaking.

ETA: maybe this is why my back is hurting!

curiousc
10-10-2011, 04:25 PM
http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/national/Police-back-at-home-of-Kansas-City-missing-baby

An interesting take from a former police officer about the re-enactment:


John Hamilton, a former Kansas City police officer who's now an associate professor of criminal justice at Park University, said crime scene re-enactments aren't common but can be valuable in some instances.

"When there's a large amount of evidence there ... the re-enactment thing is probably not a necessity," he said. "What it says to me is they were not able to find much physical evidence at the scene."

A re-enactor likely walked through the house holding a doll about the same size and weight as Lisa to see how an abductor might have navigated the home in the middle of the night when everyone was asleep, he said. The goal would be to find small details that might initially have been overlooked or a trigger that could shift the investigation in a whole new direction.

"I like (re-enactments)," Hamilton said. "They are a different kind of think-out-of-the-box way of approaching things."

Jacie Estes
10-10-2011, 04:26 PM
This ad disturbs me. let the whole world know you need money and have two boys and ask not to be flaged. I hope you flagged it, She can use that number she has to call a chruch group and not strangers on the interenet who might not really want to help but still want to contact her.

It could also be a coded message about drugs coming in or a single woman who is desperate enough to do anything. On Craig's list anything is possible.

davehead21
10-10-2011, 04:27 PM
has it been damp or rainy in the area then? I haven't seen anything posted regarding rainfall totals in the area or if there had been recent rains. If there have been, then yes, it is more likely that an intruder would leave footprints, mud. etc.

If KC has been experiencing the drought type weather that many states have this year, then it is just as likely that no footprints/mud, etc were evident.

Any of our locals that could chime in regarding recent rainfall in the area?

It has been relatively dry here. I heard on the news over the weekend that the last rainfall we had was about September 20th. It did rain a bit this morning, but it had been dry for quite some time when Baby Lisa disappeared.

gliving
10-10-2011, 04:28 PM
Like this: http://youtu.be/L9upWn_eNYs and on national tv!


Brrrrr! LOL

IAM
10-10-2011, 04:28 PM
I was trying to figure out if the crib was a drop side from the pics and I'm not sure. Incidently, ALL drop side cribs have been recalled and are no longer sold. When I did have a drop side crib I never lowered the rail, just reached over and I had a large baby too. I'm 5'2 and never had issues with creaking. If it was a man he probably would have been taller and able to reach up and over with no creaking.

Yes, I have been informed I am way out of sinc on modern crib types. My daughter is 19. So, this makes a little more sense. Not muche though. Why leave a mattress so high a baby that size can fall out of? Also, fibers could be tranferred to side of crib as someone lifted her. And I bet the mattress still creak LOL

Soulmagent
10-10-2011, 04:28 PM
Regarding the re-enactment of the alleged break-in through the window:

Since the psychological profile of someone kidnapping a baby is likely to be a woman who seeks a baby to raise as her own, why didn't LE have one of those female officers try to climb in the window?

The average male is 5'10" tall. I have no idea how tall those officers were, but they both looked @ least 5'10", and they had noticeable difficulty gaining entry & required assistance.

The average female is, I believe, 5'4" tall. If the female officer who videoed the re-enactment is 5'4" tall, there's no way she would have been able to climb up into that window on her own (without someone giving her a boost or without something to step up onto - and even then, I think it would be very challenging), judging by her height in relation to the windowsill - it was waaaay too high.

Geez - if they're going to do a re-enactment - then at least cover ALL the possibilities.

Can you screen capture that? So I can see the heights you mean. I am 5'4 and can get into a 4 foot high window. Without a boost but the window must be open.

tlcya
10-10-2011, 04:28 PM
If you turn it off....it makes a big static noise on the parents' monitor, and would alert the parent that the monitor in the baby's room has been turned off.

Yep. And to elaborate further on baby monitors:

I had the kind that had two channels. If the monitor on the baby end was switched to the second channel, I had no clue on my end. I would have thought that it would have made a different noise or loud static as they do when baby's end is switched off. But it did not.

I know this because when my kids were smaller, I continued to use the monitors up til they were nearly school age. They discovered that the monitors were impeding on their ability to get up to mischief and began turning them to the second/alternate channel. It took me forever to figure out what the little boogers were up to. That was when I ended the use of the monitors :) The kids had outsmarted me/them.

GourmetSoy
10-10-2011, 04:29 PM
If my baby monitor is turned off, from the childrens room, it makes a loud crackling noise on the other end, which is in my room.

Awesome point and yes mine does too. It's extremely loud!

katydid23
10-10-2011, 04:29 PM
It could also be a coded message about drugs coming in or a single woman who is desperate enough to do anything. On Craig's list anything is possible.

I know. It is scary. Some perv can call her and say " Sure, I will take the boys shopping for clothes anytime. Where can I pick them up?"

sorrell skye
10-10-2011, 04:29 PM
Deborah is heavy and she smokes. I wouldn't be SHOCKED if she were a snorer herself.

I haven't heard that DB is a smoker. Has this been reported? I must have missed it.

yllek
10-10-2011, 04:30 PM
I don't think this has anything to do with the case but I have seen several people make reference today that Deborah is a smoker. How is that known?

I don't think we know that for sure. I haven't seen any photos of her smoking. But, our verified local said she had seen the family outside a lot, presumably for smoke breaks, IIRC. I believe that's the source of info.

freshmom
10-10-2011, 04:31 PM
I apologize if this has been brought up , I am trying my best to keep up! But what really bothers me is this,,, My husband travels for business a lot and I always keep my cell phone near by. I keep it plugged in at night next to my bed, I don't think that is unusual, especially in a home where there is no land line. Also the whole, "I was reprogramming the phones" seems a little strange to me,, everytime I have gotten a new phone they have done that for me at the store..

mck16
10-10-2011, 04:32 PM
If you turn it off....it makes a big static noise on the parents' monitor, and would alert the parent that the monitor in the baby's room has been turned off.

So, does it sound like whoever did this was familiar with baby monitors and knew it would make a loud noise?:waitasec:

vasportsmom
10-10-2011, 04:32 PM
I wonder if JI only drove the van for work or if he was allowed to use it for some personal use as well. Would seeing the van gone be a sign that he would be out of the house for a while if you were keeping an eye on the place?

EllaMae
10-10-2011, 04:32 PM
I don't think this has anything to do with the case but I have seen several people make reference today that Deborah is a smoker. How is that known?

IIRC the verified local poster said that the parents would be outside smoking, and have the kids out there with them.

vasportsmom
10-10-2011, 04:33 PM
I apologize if this has been brought up , I am trying my best to keep up! But what really bothers me is this,,, My husband travels for business a lot and I always keep my cell phone near by. I keep it plugged in at night next to my bed, I don't think that is unusual, especially in a home where there is no land line. Also the whole, "I was reprogramming the phones" seems a little strange to me,, everytime I have gotten a new phone they have done that for me at the store..

I think it was reported that a family member gave her their old/spare phone so no trip to the store was involved.

BetteDavisEyes
10-10-2011, 04:33 PM
Regarding the re-enactment of the alleged break-in through the window:

Since the psychological profile of someone kidnapping a baby is likely to be a woman who seeks a baby to raise as her own, why didn't LE have one of those female officers try to climb in the window?

The average male is 5'10" tall. I have no idea how tall those officers were, but they both looked @ least 5'10", and they had noticeable difficulty gaining entry & required assistance.

The average female is, I believe, 5'4" tall. If the female officer who videoed the re-enactment is 5'4" tall, there's no way she would have been able to climb up into that window on her own (without someone giving her a boost or without something to step up onto - and even then, I think it would be very challenging), judging by her height in relation to the windowsill - it was waaaay too high.

Geez - if they're going to do a re-enactment - then at least cover ALL the possibilities.

I didn't attempt a reenactment, but I'm 5'4" and know that I wouldn't be able to climb through the computer room window in the Irwin home. I walked around my house outdoors and noted that all but three windows (in back of the house - great room, dining room) are too high for me to enter through a window. Our lot slopes slightly, so even though the house is all on one level (with a full basement), most of the windows are too high for even a tall person to climb into.

MissJames
10-10-2011, 04:33 PM
I apologize if this has been brought up , I am trying my best to keep up! But what really bothers me is this,,, My husband travels for business a lot and I always keep my cell phone near by. I keep it plugged in at night next to my bed, I don't think that is unusual, especially in a home where there is no land line. Also the whole, "I was reprogramming the phones" seems a little strange to me,, everytime I have gotten a new phone they have done that for me at the store..

Good point. I have a land line ,but when my husband is out of town I keep the cell phone next to it in case the LL has been cut.

mck16
10-10-2011, 04:33 PM
I apologize if this has been brought up , I am trying my best to keep up! But what really bothers me is this,,, My husband travels for business a lot and I always keep my cell phone near by. I keep it plugged in at night next to my bed, I don't think that is unusual, especially in a home where there is no land line. Also the whole, "I was reprogramming the phones" seems a little strange to me,, everytime I have gotten a new phone they have done that for me at the store..

What I heard in the beginning was that she was adding the contacts from her old phone to the new ones. Not sure if that would be referred to as reprogramming.

curiositycat
10-10-2011, 04:34 PM
I apologize if this has been brought up , I am trying my best to keep up! But what really bothers me is this,,, My husband travels for business a lot and I always keep my cell phone near by. I keep it plugged in at night next to my bed, I don't think that is unusual, especially in a home where there is no land line. Also the whole, "I was reprogramming the phones" seems a little strange to me,, everytime I have gotten a new phone they have done that for me at the store..

I keep mine by the bed at night, during the day it's wherever I am. However, my husband leaves his in his office at night. My daughter, like me, has hers wherever she is. I noticed that my son and his wife leave their's on a charger in the kitchen at night. Guess it's just a matter of preference.

marge_rita
10-10-2011, 04:34 PM
Ok, so not quite 6 pm PST yet! LOL!

I have to say that I would know something was wrong immediately too. I had a burglary, and knew. Hard to explain, but when I got out of the car, I had this eery feeling.

Not key, but Kyron! :)

I'd know too. Came home one after noon and noticed the slightest thing-- my doorbell switch had been moved, it was in a stuck position...luckily our mailman saw someone trying to enter the house. Mailman yelled at the almost breaker in person and called 911. I had the strangest feeling as pulled into the drive way.


imo