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View Full Version : MO - AMBER ALERT: Lisa Irwin, 10 months, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011 - #12



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KaylynnCouture
10-09-2011, 10:14 PM
An AMBER Alert was issued for 10-month-old Lisa Irwin on Tuesday, October 4th after she was abducted from her crib during the early morning hours. As of today (Sunday), no suspects have been identified, and the AMBER Alert has been canceled.

Lisa is 10 months old. She has blue eyes and blonde hair. She is 30 inches tall and weighs between 26 and 30 pounds. Lisa was last seen wearing purple shorts and a purple shirt with white kittens on it.
Lisa is described as having two bottom teeth, a small bug bite under her left ear, a beauty mark on her right outer thigh and currently has a cold with a cough.

Anyone with information is asked to call 9-1-1, your local police agency, or the Kansas City TIPS Hotline at 816-474-8477.


http://i56.tinypic.com/2190u8h.jpg

Previous Threads:
-Thread 1
-Thread 2
-Thread 3
-Thread 4
-Thread 5
-Thread 6
-Thread 7
-Thread 8
-Thread 9
-Thread 10
-Thread 11

RULES:

-MSM (main-stream media) links ONLY. No rumors (including those from Facebook).

-If you cannot link, you cannot discuss.

-No sleuthing minors, or "random people". Parents only.


Please continue here..

wfgodot
10-09-2011, 10:17 PM
Again thank you, KC.

Don't forget, all, to make a tag of it if new people, places, and ideas find their way onto the thread. THANKS!

katydid23
10-09-2011, 10:17 PM
Here is a possible scenario. The perp begins by messing with the computer room window. He does not go the the back windows because of the dog. { Although I do think it is weird that the dog was not going crazy at this time. My german shepherd would have eaten through the metal fence to get to an intruder.]

So he pushed the screen in partially, but for some reason decides not to continue with this window entrance. Maybe the dog was beginning to complain.

So the lucky perp comes around front and finds that the front door was left open. [ which I still feel weird about since it was the first night Dad was away on an all night job. Seems like a big reason that mom might check the doors before she went to sleep.]

He enters the home and walks thru the computer room into the kitchen area. He scoops up the phones and puts them in his backpack or bag. Perhaps to sell later and to prevent 911 calls. He may have wondered if there were more phones but at least these would be gone.

He peeks into the babies room and has the urge to take the sleeping child.
Maybe it was planned, but maybe not.

Maybe the perp saw the father leaving in his work truck and assumed he would be gone for awhile.

He may have had an accomplice waiting in a getaway car as well. But if the sightings of the man walking are real, then maybe he walked to a nearby home.

ETA: maybe he burned the child's clothing in the dumpster
__________________

Shelby1
10-09-2011, 10:17 PM
Timeline is in my signature

daisy7
10-09-2011, 10:20 PM
There will be tens of thousands of kids that are accidentally overdosed and even more that were not treated for an overdose. Parents with sick kids buy adult medicine since infant cough/cold medicine is not sold and they try to adjust the dosing to fit their child’s needs.

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) does not allow manufacturers to provide dosage recommendations for children under age 2 on the bottles or packaging. In May 2011, an advisory committee recommended changing this policy — but the FDA has not yet done so, and the old policy is still in effect, at least for now.”

Personally I think that not putting dosage directions for children under two is dangerous because some parents are going to give their sick child this medicine by guessing at the dosage.

I understand that there will be many ODs, but there has to be a way that we can find out how many children have DIED from an OD. This theory comes up in so many cases, but is it really plausible? That's why I would like to see the statistic.

krimekat
10-09-2011, 10:21 PM
EricKCTV5 Eric Chaloux
#LisaIrwin case update: On MyKSMO--What did PD do at family house?Why was KCPD in Kansas on this story? The answers live at 9pm.

anyone watching the local news?

curiositycat
10-09-2011, 10:21 PM
Did anyone listen to Dr. Lillian Glass on WS radio? I liked her analysis of the whole thing. Especially the part where she talked about DB saying that they were not mad. She said, "I would be mad if anyone stole anything of mine, not to mention my child" i thought she made a good point. I have been listening to her for years, and to me she always is spot on.

Jacie Estes
10-09-2011, 10:23 PM
Carried over:

shefner
Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 1,900

Quote:
Originally Posted by wfgodot
Son of master craftsman Daedalus, who assists his desire to escape from Crete by making him a pair of wings with which to fly. He is warned not to fly too close to the sun as the wax holding the wings in place will melt. Icarus, showing forth the desire to attain life's pinnacle, with all the exuberance of youth, does indeed fly too close. And into the sea he goes.


See, folks? There is no end to what can be learned on Websleuths.

The lesson to be gained is to temper your exuberance with self-control....
otherwise, your wax will melt.
=================
BBM MULTI-TASKING. :D

Kakidoll
10-09-2011, 10:24 PM
just a thought about the back yare

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I remember correctly, there is a dog running in teh back yard. So there could be LOTS of disturbances in the back yard... from digging, running, typical 'dog' stuff. That might explain the multiple times going to the back yard to search and why disturbances in dirt aren't so visable

panthera
10-09-2011, 10:24 PM
Here is a possible scenario. The perp begins by messing with the computer room window. He does not go the the back windows because of the dog. { Although I do think it is weird that the dog was not going crazy at this time. My german shepherd would have eaten through the metal fence to get to an intruder.]

So he pushed the screen in partially, but for some reason decides not to continue with this window entrance. Maybe the dog was beginning to complain.

So the lucky perp comes around front and finds that the front door was left open. [ which I still feel weird about since it was the first night Dad was away on an all night job. Seems like a big reason that mom might check the doors before she went to sleep.]

He enters the home and walks thru the computer room into the kitchen area. He scoops up the phones and puts them in his backpack or bag. Perhaps to sell later and to prevent 911 calls. He may have wondered if there were more phones but at least these would be gone.

He peeks into the babies room and has the urge to take the sleeping child.
Maybe it was planned, but maybe not.

Maybe the perp saw the father leaving in his work truck and assumed he would be gone for awhile.

He may have had an accomplice waiting in a getaway car as well. But if the sightings of the man walking are real, then maybe he walked to a nearby home.

ETA: maybe he burned the child's clothing in the dumpster
__________________
BBM

What was the motivation for the intruder - burglary or kidnapping? Usually one or the other, not both. I agree, however, it is difficult to come up with a plausible scenario.

:waitasec:

Lizbetbathory
10-09-2011, 10:24 PM
id hoped she be found today:(

matou
10-09-2011, 10:25 PM
Did anyone listen to Dr. Lillian Glass on WS radio? I liked her analysis of the whole thing. Especially the part where she talked about DB saying that they were not mad. She said, "I would be mad if anyone stole anything of mine, not to mention my child" i thought she made a good point. I have been listening to her for years, and to me she always is spot on.

Did Lisa's mother actually say this?

powayparent
10-09-2011, 10:25 PM
I understand that there will be many ODs, but there has to be a way that we can find out how many children have DIED from an OD. This theory comes up in so many cases, but is it really plausible? That's why I would like to see the statistic.

Earlier this year, the FDA completed a review that found between 1969 and the fall of 2006 there were 54 reported child deaths from decongestants and 69 from antihistamines. Most of the deaths occurred in children under 2.
http://articles.cnn.com/2007-10-17/health/cough.syrup.deaths_1_cold-medicines-cough-medicines-child-deaths/2?_s=PM:HEALTH

Dr.Fessel
10-09-2011, 10:25 PM
Did anyone listen to Dr. Lillian Glass on WS radio? I liked her analysis of the whole thing. Especially the part where she talked about DB saying that they were not mad. She said, "I would be mad if anyone stole anything of mine, not to mention my child" i thought she made a good point. I have been listening to her for years, and to me she always is spot on.

Aren't they told not to express anger at the perp in these press conferences?

angeleleven
10-09-2011, 10:27 PM
Did anyone listen to Dr. Lillian Glass on WS radio? I liked her analysis of the whole thing. Especially the part where she talked about DB saying that they were not mad. She said, "I would be mad if anyone stole anything of mine, not to mention my child" i thought she made a good point. I have been listening to her for years, and to me she always is spot on.

Yes, I listened to her tonight, also. She made a lot of sense and agree with what she had to say in regards to your post.

Just K
10-09-2011, 10:27 PM
While I was typing this this new thread opened and I got behind AGAIN.
Possible scenarios for the fence people:
1. Dad leaves Mom at home for his very first night shift. Mom has introduced the boys to a stray kitten, at 7:30 PM Mom changes sick baby, gives her a bottle and puts her down for the night, neighbor, with child drops in, while the boys watch a movie with the neighbor's child. At around 10:30PM (all of this per JP interview 10/8/2011) the neighbor leaves and Mom, makes one last check on Baby Lisa, closes her door, goes to her room, closes the door and gets into bed with her six year old and the new kitten. The eight year old goes to his bedroom and closes his door. Mom may have forgotten to lock the front door but insists that she did turn off the lights. 6.5 hours later Dad returns from work to find the front door unlocked, most of the lights on, sees the window open, tries to close it and finds the screen is pushed inward. He passes his daughter's room, notices the door is open and checks on the boys and then his own room. Wakes wife to ask why door unlocked, windows open and why baby's door is open and where is the baby? Then they race through the house looking for the baby and screaming her name. The boys wake up and are crying. Dad looks for the cellphones to call 911, determines that an intruder came into the house stole their phones so that they wouldn't be able to call 911 and took the baby. They race outside without checking the yard, Dad calls 911 from his work phone that is in his pocket and begins knocking on neighbors' doors before either parent checks around the outside of the house. (IMO - Unlikely)

2. During the day when Dad has to sleep for his night shift, something happens to the baby. Either it is an unknowing accident, like overdose, falling, drowning or some other event where Baby Lisa dies or one of the parents snaps, loses their temper and the baby is injured and dies. Parents panic and develop a plan, mom or dad scopes out a nearby dumpster to get rid of the evidence which they will set on fire later that night. In the process, whoever finds the dumpster also finds a kitten and being heartbroken picks up the kitten and brings it home for the boys who will no doubt be heartbroken over the loss of their baby sister.
Before Dad leaves for work they decide on a plan. Somewhere between midnight and 2:30 AM someone goes to the dumpster calls from their cell phone when the dumpster fire ignites and after the call they realize that they must get rid of the phones because there will be proof that mom or dad made a call at around 2:30 in the morning. (IMO- MOST LIKELY)

3. Or for whatever reason the family decided that they could either enlist someone to take the baby and later anonymously drop her off at a safe place and in the process they can make money off of their "missing" child. Then once darkness falls they put the plan into action. (IMO- Unlikely)

4. Or someone else took Baby Lisa and either gave her to someone else for some sort of profit or revenge against the parents. (IMO- Highly Unlikley)

IAM
10-09-2011, 10:27 PM
Maybe I am not the typical cat lover, but I find it odd a mother would allow a stray cat she knows nothing about health wise to sleep in her bed and with her 6 year old? And with a sick baby in house. A sick baby would be enough to tend to without worrying about a stray kitty.And the father questions why the child is in bed but not the stray cat??? Just another thing that strikes me odd.

RANCH
10-09-2011, 10:28 PM
Did anyone listen to Dr. Lillian Glass on WS radio? I liked her analysis of the whole thing. Especially the part where she talked about DB saying that they were not mad. She said, "I would be mad if anyone stole anything of mine, not to mention my child" i thought she made a good point. I have been listening to her for years, and to me she always is spot on.

I missed part of the show. In what context did Debbie say they were not mad. Not mad at whom or what?.

curiositycat
10-09-2011, 10:29 PM
Did Lisa's mother actually say this?

Yes, she said "We aren't mad", I believe it's on the interview with ABC on Friday. She said it a couple of times.

I believe Trisha said she sent Dr. Glass a video to watch and then comment on re: the body language, ect.

twall
10-09-2011, 10:29 PM
found the answer to my question at the end of the last thread-what door did JI use when he came home from work?

This report (which I believe aired Sat. morning) states he used the front door.
If you have not seen this video I recommend it, it shows some of the interior of the home, lr with front door, kitchen and room where computer is where tampered window is located, also referred to as a "spare living room".

http://www.kmbc.com/news/29427206/detail.html

EllaMae
10-09-2011, 10:32 PM
I understand that there will be many ODs, but there has to be a way that we can find out how many children have DIED from an OD. This theory comes up in so many cases, but is it really plausible? That's why I would like to see the statistic.

I don't think it is plausible. Calling 911 and/or Poison Control is the way a loving parent would handle an OD....or even by taking a trip to the ER. The children don't die because they receive immediate medical attention. An OD or poisoning handled any other way would raise suspicion.

In Silar Newton's case no one tried to get him any help, and I think he was deliberately drugged.

curiositycat
10-09-2011, 10:32 PM
I don't watch regular news a alot, it was the today show. I am trying to find you a link.

Shelby1
10-09-2011, 10:32 PM
I missed part of the show. In what context did Debbie say they were not mad. Not mad at whom or what?.

(thank you BeanE for gathering these)
#LisaIrwin's mom:We want to thank everybody who has helped us so far.
1 minute ago

#LisaIrwin's mom: we are not angry, we just want our daughter home, that's all we care about.
2 minutes ago


----------------------

cleo612
10-09-2011, 10:32 PM
Can someone tell me what would happen if the intruder lived very close by, took the phones, turned them off and then tossed them under a bush on their OWN property?


Would the phones still ping as possibly still being on the Irwin property or would they ping showing that they were on the property of the offending neighbor?

Would that be too close for the "ping machine" to differentiate?

CatFancier
10-09-2011, 10:33 PM
One thing I haven't really seen mentioned regarding mom's sleep that night is the possibility of sleep issues. I have sleep apnea. Before I got my CPAP machine, I slept like the dead while raising young twins. Since I got it (7 years ago), I can't hear a thing when I have it on and literally have to be shaken awake (I just sleep more normal hours now).

IMO unless you have a sleep disorder, you have no idea how it affects your life and your sleep patterns.

Tricia
10-09-2011, 10:33 PM
Hey Everyone,

Shelby1 was a guest on Websleuths Radio this week and she did a FANTASTIC JOB. She explained her timeline.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleuths/2011/10/10/websleuths-radio

Pensfan
10-09-2011, 10:33 PM
I understand that there will be many ODs, but there has to be a way that we can find out how many children have DIED from an OD. This theory comes up in so many cases, but is it really plausible? That's why I would like to see the statistic.
I can find ODs by name of drug, but I am still looking for total number of all ODs. The problem with this is that many ODs will not be reported to those who tabulate such data and parents frequently don't recognize that their child's new strange symptoms were from being overdosed. Not all ODs children end up in the ER receiving treatment, but this doesn't mean that they were not overdosed. Overdose does not always =death.

Pensfan
---------
verified psychiatric mental health nurse

Dr.Fessel
10-09-2011, 10:35 PM
Eyes for Lies got it all wrong in the Somer Thompson case with the her study of Diena Thompson's interview.

Shelby1
10-09-2011, 10:36 PM
Prayers....big prayers that baby Lisa is ok, being cared for, and will be brought back to her family as I rest.

Timeline is in my signature.


It's raining here...a LONG LONG needed rain in the land of the sunflowers. I'm going to shut my eyes to the sound of drops hitting my downspout. It's lovely.

curiositycat
10-09-2011, 10:36 PM
Aren't they told not to express anger at the perp in these press conferences?
I have no idea. I am not in LE

gliving
10-09-2011, 10:37 PM
I missed part of the show. In what context did Debbie say they were not mad. Not mad at whom or what?.

IIRC, Debbie says she wasn't mad at LE for the extensive questioning. She understood why it was necessary.

wfgodot
10-09-2011, 10:37 PM
Prayers....big prayers that baby Lisa is ok, being cared for, and will be brought back to her family as I rest.

Timeline is in my signature.


It's raining here...a LONG LONG needed rain in the land of the sunflowers. I'm going to shut my eyes to the sound of drops hitting my downspout. It's lovely.

Nothing like rain in a Kansas October.

panthera
10-09-2011, 10:38 PM
Maybe I am not the typical cat lover, but I find it odd a mother would allow a stray cat she knows nothing about health wise to sleep in her bed and with her 6 year old? And with a sick baby in house. A sick baby would be enough to tend to without worrying about a stray kitty.And the father questions why the child is in bed but not the stray cat??? Just another thing that strikes me odd.

You're right, you're not the typical cat lover.

:D

Seriously, however, the boy may have wanted the kitten to sleep with him, and mom relented. It made the boy happy. I have also brought kittens into my house where there are other cats without them first being checked by a vet; as the other cats have all had vaccinations and one can often tell if a kitten is sick by outward appearance.

matou
10-09-2011, 10:39 PM
"We're not angry". Was she freaking out when she said this? Crying while saying it? To me this means that she's speaking to someone in particular, like she knows. A child? A young person? Her partner?

CatFancier
10-09-2011, 10:39 PM
(thank you BeanE for gathering these)
#LisaIrwin's mom:We want to thank everybody who has helped us so far.
1 minute ago

#LisaIrwin's mom: we are not angry, we just want our daughter home, that's all we care about.
2 minutes ago


----------------------



I never understood when that was said that she was talking about the kidnapper but rather LE.

Dr.Fessel
10-09-2011, 10:39 PM
I have no idea. I am not in LE

I think I remember that from Haleigh's case that Ron was told to tone down the threats.

matou
10-09-2011, 10:40 PM
IIRC, Debbie says she wasn't mad at LE for the extensive questioning. She understood why it was necessary.

That makes sense. Thank you.

RANCH
10-09-2011, 10:40 PM
(thank you BeanE for gathering these)
#LisaIrwin's mom:We want to thank everybody who has helped us so far.
1 minute ago

#LisaIrwin's mom: we are not angry, we just want our daughter home, that's all we care about.
2 minutes ago


----------------------


Thanks Shelby1. I guess she could have said "we are very pissed and whoever has Lisa better bring her back now". Maybe Debbie thought that a response such as that would anger the kidnapper? Just an Idea.

mck16
10-09-2011, 10:41 PM
Does anyone know if the floors in the home are carpeted? tia

Pensfan
10-09-2011, 10:41 PM
I can find ODs by name of drug, but I am still looking for total number of all ODs. The problem with this is that many ODs will not be reported to those who tabulate such data and parents frequently don't recognize that their child's new strange symptoms were from being overdosed. Not all ODs children end up in the ER receiving treatment, but this doesn't mean that they were not overdosed. Overdose does not always =death.

Pensfan
---------
verified psychiatric mental health nurse

Found a statistic from the CDC on 2-year-olds and overdoses:

One out of every 180 two-year-olds visits an emergency department for a medication poisoning.
http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/poisoning/poisoning-factsheet.htm

Realize that many parents do not understand that their child's new bizarre symptoms are related to medication the child ingested and therefore, many overdoses will not be seen in the ER. Other parents will be too afraid to seek treatment for their overdosed child especially if they administered the med. CPS might be contacted and they could lose temporary or permanent custody of their children.

From the same site:
In 2007, 29,846 (74 percent) of the 40,059 poisoning deaths in the United States were unintentional. Unintentional poisoning death rates have been rising steadily since 1992. Unintentional poisoning includes the use of drugs or chemicals for recreational purposes in excessive amounts, such as an “overdose.” It also includes the excessive use of drugs or chemicals for non-recreational purposes, such as by a toddler.

katydid23
10-09-2011, 10:41 PM
BBM

What was the motivation for the intruder - burglary or kidnapping? Usually one or the other, not both. I agree, however, it is difficult to come up with a plausible scenario.

:waitasec:

I agree that it is not usually both. But there are that rare breed of crazy, creepy intruders that do not fit the usual mode.

Your average opportunity burglar, finding an open front door is going to grab the cell phones and look around for anything else they can quickly take. But they also do not usually turn on all of the lights. [ if they did so]

But there are crazy transients who do weird things that make no sense. And these are the types of perps that make a crime scene really confusing and it makes the innocent victims look possibly guilty because of all of the inconsistent circumstances.

EllaMae
10-09-2011, 10:42 PM
Yes, she said "We aren't mad", I believe it's on the interview with ABC on Friday. She said it a couple of times.

I believe Trisha said she sent Dr. Glass a video to watch and then comment on re: the body language, ect.


Debbie was saying that she wasn't mad AT POLICE....not that she wasn't mad at whoever took her baby.

She was trying to convey the sentiment that she understood the need for LE to interrogate her, and that she was still willing to work with LE.

twall
10-09-2011, 10:42 PM
IIRC, Debbie says she wasn't mad at LE for the extensive questioning. She understood why it was necessary.

correct

Here is the link.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44813949/ns/today-today_people/t/mom-missing-tot-cops-said-you-did-it/

Apples2Apples
10-09-2011, 10:42 PM
If the boys were sick, maybe they had been given Nyquil. Maybe that's why they slept so good. I'm not sure if I can ask this question, but I'm assuming school has started in KC. And I'm assuming the boys go to school. What did mom and baby do while the boys were at school?

Also, is mom's room in the basement? When I lived in a basement apt, I always heard the tenants upstairs. I could hear every little move both on carpet and wood and linoleum floors.

SuziQ
10-09-2011, 10:43 PM
"We're not angry". Was she freaking out when she said this? Crying while saying it? To me this means that she's speaking to someone in particular, like she knows. A child? A young person? Her partner?

I think to anyone who took her child. I definitely wouldn't want to piss them off either by telling them I was angry or mad. I know you didn't address that in your post, I was just continuing a thought.

passionflower
10-09-2011, 10:43 PM
First night that hubby worked night shift, IMO, I wouldn't sleep that well without my guy.
JMOO. always took me a few nights to get used to him gone.

mrye4709
10-09-2011, 10:44 PM
Speaking of sleeping....I hear my grandbaby when she cries, but I do not hear my daughter when she is up and about with her. I guess it would be possible to come in my front door and if no crying baby you could take what you want, lol. I do have a window ac and I have been keeping it on fan just because I need the noise.

Shelby1
10-09-2011, 10:44 PM
Thanks Shelby1. I guess she could have said "we are very pissed and whoever has Lisa better bring her back now". Maybe Debbie thought that a response such as that would anger the kidnapper? Just an Idea.


I don't know whether she said that in regards to LE or the kidnapper (s).....my gut tells me LE. But, I've been wrong a LOT before lol.

belimom
10-09-2011, 10:44 PM
(thank you BeanE for gathering these)
#LisaIrwin's mom:We want to thank everybody who has helped us so far.
1 minute ago

#LisaIrwin's mom: we are not angry, we just want our daughter home, that's all we care about.
2 minutes ago


----------------------




"We're not angry". Was she freaking out when she said this? Crying while saying it? To me this means that she's speaking to someone in particular, like she knows. A child? A young person? Her partner?

I agree with you, Matou. While a part of me (well, most of me) thinks the mom is involved somehow, it does sound like she is talking to someone specifically. The teen? Someone else she suspects? That's how we talk to our children when we want the truth - "We won't get angry - just tell us what happened", etc.

ETA: Okay, I see that this may be in response to LE...

CatFancier
10-09-2011, 10:44 PM
Can someone tell me what would happen if the intruder lived very close by, took the phones, turned them off and then tossed them under a bush on their OWN property?


Would the phones still ping as possibly still being on the Irwin property or would they ping showing that they were on the property of the offending neighbor?

Would that be too close for the "ping machine" to differentiate?

Not an expert at all but in the Gail Palmgren threads, we have talked pings quite a bit and my understanding is that they don't ping when off or when the battery is removed.

shefner
10-09-2011, 10:45 PM
I don't think it is plausible. Calling 911 and/or Poison Control is the way a loving parent would handle an OD....or even by taking a trip to the ER. The children don't die because they receive immediate medical attention. An OD or poisoning handled any other way would raise suspicion.

In Silar Newton's case no one tried to get him any help, and I think he was deliberately drugged.



There was the week, back in 1992, when I had to call poison control twice in one week. Twins. That says it all.

They worked in tangent like little elves in Santa's Toy Shop....what one could not do, two certainly could. Fort Knox has never invented a child-proof lock that these two identical girls could not unhinge.

The first call was because they found their way into the cleaning closet and worked like master-thieves to break in and get the ammonia. When I found them, they had opened the lid and poured the ammonia into the tub....and they were in the tub. I couldn't be sure they didn't have any in their mouths so I had to call poison control
The second call, a few days later, came because they opened a brand new box that contained Children's Nyquil. Do they even make this toxin anymore? I don't know. But they worked together to open the new box, take off the plastic pressure seal, unscrew the child-proof lid, slide a chair over to the kitchen sink and attempt to medicate themselves. They did this in the 2 minutes I ran to answer the phone.
I just knew Family Services would ring my bell within 48 hours. But no. I continued to raise these Houdini twins to adulthood....and am happy to report that they are 20 years old and quite lovely. Believe it or not, their older brothers also survived my parental abilities~or lack thereof.

curiositycat
10-09-2011, 10:45 PM
Hey Everyone,

Shelby1 was a guest on Websleuths Radio this week and she did a FANTASTIC JOB. She explained her timeline.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleuths/2011/10/10/websleuths-radio


Thanks Shelby1. I guess she could have said "we are very pissed and whoever has Lisa better bring her back now". Maybe Debbie thought that a response such as that would anger the kidnapper? Just an Idea.

Don't kill the messenger.:innocent: I think Dr. Glass used that as an illustration when Tricia asked her what she thought was a little "off" about Debbie. IIRC Dr. Glass said she thought she was a little too nice, a little too calm.

Tuffy
10-09-2011, 10:46 PM
There is something else that I was thinking of that makes the intruder perp story less plausible to me. DB says she closes all the doors, even the bedroom doors, at night. So the perp comes in, and selects the right door to kidnap Lisa. He/she doesn't accidentally open the wrong doors, or if he/she does it wakes no one?

panthera
10-09-2011, 10:46 PM
Must say good night now, however not without saying a prayer that Lisa is found soon, and that she is safe. Hopefully tomorrow there will be some good news!

:praying:

:seeya:

EllaMae
10-09-2011, 10:46 PM
(thank you BeanE for gathering these)
#LisaIrwin's mom:We want to thank everybody who has helped us so far.
1 minute ago

#LisaIrwin's mom: we are not angry, we just want our daughter home, that's all we care about.
2 minutes ago


----------------------




Thanks! I had not seen that quote until just now.

belimom
10-09-2011, 10:46 PM
I'm going to try to sign off for awhile but I hate to because this thread moves a mile a minute! Feel free to sloooooooooowwwww down for awhile. ;)

Shelby1
10-09-2011, 10:46 PM
Ok, I'm really off now. {{{hugs}}}

mrye4709
10-09-2011, 10:46 PM
Does anyone know if the floors in the home are carpeted? tia

The videos I have seen showed carpet in Lisa's room, not sure about the rest of the house.

Angleena
10-09-2011, 10:47 PM
Can someone tell me what would happen if the intruder lived very close by, took the phones, turned them off and then tossed them under a bush on their OWN property?


Would the phones still ping as possibly still being on the Irwin property or would they ping showing that they were on the property of the offending neighbor?

Would that be too close for the "ping machine" to differentiate?

That depends on the cell phone and if it has GPS. If it has GPS, they would find it. If it doesn't, they would only know the general area. Also, just so you know, FBI can remotely activate the microphone on most cell phones these days and listen in to the conversations going on around the phone...they don't have to be GPS phones to do this. It's known as the 'Roving Bug'. You can learn more about it here.....http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2006/12/can_you_hear_me/

Jacie Estes
10-09-2011, 10:47 PM
Prayers....big prayers that baby Lisa is ok, being cared for, and will be brought back to her family as I rest.

Timeline is in my signature.


It's raining here...a LONG LONG needed rain in the land of the sunflowers. I'm going to shut my eyes to the sound of drops hitting my downspout. It's lovely.

BBM

Thank you for your work with the timeline. Here we may get snow and those flakes are way too silent. ;)

CatFancier
10-09-2011, 10:48 PM
I agree with you, Matou. While a part of me (well, most of me) thinks the mom is involved somehow, it does sound like she is talking to someone specifically. The teen? Someone else she suspects? That's how we talk to our children when we want the truth - "We won't get angry - just tell us what happened", etc.

ETA: Okay, I see that this may be in response to LE...

Here is the entire quote, in context...

On Thursday night, Kansas City Police Department captain Steve Young announced at a press conference that Irwin and Bradley “decided to stop talking to detectives, and I don’t have to illustrate how that affects the investigation. That speaks for itself.’’ The police still say there are no suspects in the case.

“We don’t have any hard feelings,’’ Deborah Bradley told Lauer. “We’re not mad. We understand this is what they have to do. We’re not angry. We just want our daughter back.’’

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44813949/ns/today-today_people/t/mom-missing-tot-cops-said-you-did-it/#.TpJck5tT8TY

EllaMae
10-09-2011, 10:48 PM
There was the week, back in 1992, when I had to call poison control twice in one week. Twins. That says it all.

They worked in tangent like little elves in Santa's Toy Shop....what one could not do, two certainly could. Fort Knox has never invented a child-proof lock that these two identical girls could not unhinge.

The first call was because they found their way into the cleaning closet and worked like master-thieves to break in and get the ammonia. When I found them, they had opened the lid and poured the ammonia into the tub....and they were in the tub. I couldn't be sure they didn't have any in their mouths so I had to call poison control
The second call, a few days later, came because they opened a brand new box that contained Children's Nyquil. Do they even make this toxin anymore? I don't know. But they worked together to open the new box, take off the plastic pressure seal, unscrew the child-proof lid, slide a chair over to the kitchen sink and attempt to medicate themselves. They did this in the 2 minutes I ran to answer the phone.
I just knew Family Services would ring my bell within 48 hours. But no. I continued to raise these Houdini twins to adulthood....and am happy to report that they are 20 years old and quite lovely. Believe it or not, their older brothers also survived my parental abilities~or lack thereof.

Oh I can so relate!!!

BeanE
10-09-2011, 10:49 PM
I never understood when that was said that she was talking about the kidnapper but rather LE.

What I recall is Debbie saying she wasn't mad that LE had said they were uncooperative the night before.

SondraK
10-09-2011, 10:49 PM
If one looks at the floor plan of the house and notes where bedroom doors are placed in relation to where the bed would most likely be, it is possible that very little light was visible in the room to awaken a sleeping person. JMO

katydid23
10-09-2011, 10:49 PM
Originally I was very suspicious of the mom. Mostly because of the hinky circumstances. But as time goes on I am starting to think that it may have been a break-in. perhaps a couple of drugged up teens even. imoo

neesaki
10-09-2011, 10:50 PM
Did anyone listen to Dr. Lillian Glass on WS radio? I liked her analysis of the whole thing. Especially the part where she talked about DB saying that they were not mad. She said, "I would be mad if anyone stole anything of mine, not to mention my child" i thought she made a good point. I have been listening to her for years, and to me she always is spot on.

:waitasec:Mad at who? I thought DB's point was that she wasn't mad at LE, not the purported kidnapper. Not to mention, that maybe DB has enough sense to try to keep a decent relationship with LE. How would it benefit them for her to say "she's mad". I've watched Dr. Glass a lot on HLN, etc. Sometimes I agree with her, sometimes I don't. JMO

SuziQ
10-09-2011, 10:51 PM
I agree that it is not usually both. But there are that rare breed of crazy, creepy intruders that do not fit the usual mode.

Your average opportunity burglar, finding an open front door is going to grab the cell phones and look around for anything else they can quickly take. But they also do not usually turn on all of the lights. [ if they did so]

But there are crazy transients who do weird things that make no sense. And these are the types of perps that make a crime scene really confusing and it makes the innocent victims look possibly guilty because of all of the inconsistent circumstances.

When I was a young adult a neighbor teen who was mentally ill preyed on the area for years. He meandered all over at night and would spend many hours in houses with the occupants there sleeping. Eating, drinking their liquor, going through all the drawers. He would take their cigs, lighters, wallets and anything else right off their nightstands. Most people never woke and caught him. IIRC there were only a couple of times he was caught and arrested. there were many nights this kid went on a mini crime spree in a single night. Breaking into houses, cars, lighting things on fire, letting dogs out of their yards and houses.

curiositycat
10-09-2011, 10:52 PM
When I was a young adult a neighbor teen who was mentally ill preyed on the area for years. He meandered all over at night and would spend many hours in houses with the occupants there sleeping. Eating, drinking their liquor, going through all the drawers. He would take their cigs, lighters, wallets and anything else right off their nightstands. Most people never woke and caught him. IIRC there were only a couple of times he was caught and arrested. there were many nights this kid went on a mini crime spree in a single night. Breaking into houses, cars, lighting things on fire, letting dogs out of their yards and houses.

Now that's scary!

RANCH
10-09-2011, 10:52 PM
I don't know whether she said that in regards to LE or the kidnapper (s).....my gut tells me LE. But, I've been wrong a LOT before lol.

Hey thanks. If it was in regards to LE then she did right by saying that. If it was in regards to kidnappers, there could be room for some debate.

Shutterfly
10-09-2011, 10:53 PM
Maybe I am not the typical cat lover, but I find it odd a mother would allow a stray cat she knows nothing about health wise to sleep in her bed and with her 6 year old? And with a sick baby in house. A sick baby would be enough to tend to without worrying about a stray kitty.And the father questions why the child is in bed but not the stray cat??? Just another thing that strikes me odd.

Several cat ailments have an incubation period in which you'd notice nothing abnormal for several days to a couple weeks. There's ringworm to consider, tape worms, fleas, scabies an other parasites. I'm not your typical cat lover either. I used to run a rescue that specialized in cats. I absolutely adore them and it's nothing for me to cart home a dumpster kitty occasionally, even now. Under NO circumstances would I put a newly acquired cat/kitten near my child..especially in close proximity to another child who's sick and is obviously going to potentially have an already compromised immune system. You can vaccinate what you have...but what you bring in may have something you can't see.
Of course, consider that I'm wrapped entirely too tight over the sick cat thing after some of what I've witnessed in the years I spent in rescue work. The average person just doesn't know what could happen. Worst case, you could unknowingly bring in a cat who looks perfectly healthy, but in reality carries the rabies virus. Pretty scary, huh?

wfgodot
10-09-2011, 10:53 PM
103 members 101 guests - large crowd for almost 10 CST on a Sunday night! Guests, join the conversation, join us.

neesaki
10-09-2011, 10:55 PM
Did Lisa's mother actually say this?

No, she did not.

EllaMae
10-09-2011, 10:56 PM
That reminds me of Charles Manson and his gang of drug addled misfits. They used to enter homes at night while the occupants were sleeping, and roam around just for fun. They called it something...I think it was "creepy crawling".

Can you imagine waking up one night to find that group crawling through your house?

Pensfan
10-09-2011, 10:56 PM
I don't think it is plausible. Calling 911 and/or Poison Control is the way a loving parent would handle an OD....or even by taking a trip to the ER. The children don't die because they receive immediate medical attention. An OD or poisoning handled any other way would raise suspicion.

In Silar Newton's case no one tried to get him any help, and I think he was deliberately drugged.
If a parent accidentally overdosed their child on a medication that made the child sleepy, the child would just go to sleep and might never wake up. The parents would not know that they had OD the child until they found the child dead. There would not be an ER visit or poison control call. This is the precise danger of giving adult cough syrups that contain dextromethorphan to children.

mrye4709
10-09-2011, 10:56 PM
There was the week, back in 1992, when I had to call poison control twice in one week. Twins. That says it all.

They worked in tangent like little elves in Santa's Toy Shop....what one could not do, two certainly could. Fort Knox has never invented a child-proof lock that these two identical girls could not unhinge.

The first call was because they found their way into the cleaning closet and worked like master-thieves to break in and get the ammonia. When I found them, they had opened the lid and poured the ammonia into the tub....and they were in the tub. I couldn't be sure they didn't have any in their mouths so I had to call poison control
The second call, a few days later, came because they opened a brand new box that contained Children's Nyquil. Do they even make this toxin anymore? I don't know. But they worked together to open the new box, take off the plastic pressure seal, unscrew the child-proof lid, slide a chair over to the kitchen sink and attempt to medicate themselves. They did this in the 2 minutes I ran to answer the phone.
I just knew Family Services would ring my bell within 48 hours. But no. I continued to raise these Houdini twins to adulthood....and am happy to report that they are 20 years old and quite lovely. Believe it or not, their older brothers also survived my parental abilities~or lack thereof.

They still make it, although the ingredients have probably changed since then. My son drank an entire bottle of YELLOW triaminic, if you remember that awful stuff. I knew he had it, but the lid was clicking and I figured I could get the diaper on his nb sister. Noooo, he got it off and drank it. I called poison control and went to the er because I didn't know about the syrup that makes them throw up. When sister got bigger I had 2 of these scares, one with iron supplements! That one got us a night in the hospital, they both survived and are now getting paid back by their own kids. My son's youngest drank some peroxide when they first moved a few months ago.

TGIRecovered
10-09-2011, 10:56 PM
I would like to know if Dad volunteered for the late shift or if it was assigned to him at random. My suspicion is that something happened to Lisa sometime after the party that they attended and that Dad might have traded shifts or volunteered for the night shift to facilitate a staged kidnapping. I suspect that Lisa was removed from the home before Dad went to work. Mom may had had the lights on late into the night while she cleaned house and got rid of any soiled sheets or clothing.

I think they ditched the cell phones thinking that it might keep LE from being able to track where they went to dispose of the body earlier in the day. Even if just one of the phones had calls or pings which could cast suspicion, they decided to ditch them all so there would not be a question of why the "kidnapper " would take one phone and not the others.

That's just my latest version. I'm sure it will change. MOO

I think the only thing burned in the dumpster was clothing or sheets or cleaning rags. Cell phones would stil be identifiable even if burned, and if they had tried to burn a body the fire wouldn't have completely consumed it and it would smell like a burned body.

katydid23
10-09-2011, 10:57 PM
When I was a young adult a neighbor teen who was mentally ill preyed on the area for years. He meandered all over at night and would spend many hours in houses with the occupants there sleeping. Eating, drinking their liquor, going through all the drawers. He would take their cigs, lighters, wallets and anything else right off their nightstands. Most people never woke and caught him. IIRC there were only a couple of times he was caught and arrested. there were many nights this kid went on a mini crime spree in a single night. Breaking into houses, cars, lighting things on fire, letting dogs out of their yards and houses.

Exactly. I knew if a similar situation, but not as extreme. There was a crazy guy in his early 20's who moved back in with his parents. He used to break into people's homes in our neighborhood when people were mostly at work. He would shower, make food, watch cable tv, and then leave. Finally people began putting in cameras and he was busted. he did not really hurt anyone so he ended up in a hospital.

wfgodot
10-09-2011, 10:57 PM
That reminds me of Charles Manson and his gang of drug addled misfits. They used to enter homes at night while the occupants were sleeping, and roam around just for fun. They called it something...I think it was "creepy crawling".

Can you imagine waking up one night to find that group crawling through your house?
Yep, creepy crawling it surely was.

mck16
10-09-2011, 10:57 PM
Hey thanks. If it was in regards to LE then she did right by saying that. If it was in regards to kidnappers, there could be room for some debate.

Post #61 above gives the interview in context and the link. She was referring to LE.

RANCH
10-09-2011, 10:57 PM
Don't kill the messenger.:innocent: I think Dr. Glass used that as an illustration when Tricia asked her what she thought was a little "off" about Debbie. IIRC Dr. Glass said she thought she was a little too nice, a little too calm.

I think Dr Glass is great. What was your opinion. Do you agree with Dr.Glass?

passionflower
10-09-2011, 10:57 PM
Why and who would want to kidnap a 10 month baby girl in the middle of the night?

Do we have proof that baby Lisa was sick?
Or just the word of parents?

Was she cutting teeth? cranky?
How much sleep did dad get that day?

The birthday party was 2 days before IIRC.
Anything odd at the party?

shefner
10-09-2011, 10:58 PM
What I recall is Debbie saying she wasn't mad that LE had said they were uncooperative the night before.


I'd be mad as heck if LE kept examining me and I knew I was innocent.

But then again, the Ramseys (JonBenet's parents) acted angry and I didn't like it. I thought they acted arrogant.

So it might be a "no win" situation.

marge_rita
10-09-2011, 10:58 PM
There is something else that I was thinking of that makes the intruder perp story less plausible to me. DB says she closes all the door, even the bedroom doors, at night. So the perp comes in, and selects the right door to kidnap Lisa. He/she doesn't accidentally open the wrong doors, or if he/she does it wakes no one?

Good catch Tuffy!

BeanE
10-09-2011, 10:58 PM
Thanks! I had not seen that quote until just now.

Those are reporter tweets. Because they have to type fast, I wouldn't take them as exact quotes.

katydid23
10-09-2011, 10:59 PM
I would like to know if Dad volunteered for the late shift or if it was assigned to him at random. My suspicion is that something happened to Lisa sometime after the party that they attended and that Dad might have traded shifts or volunteered for the night shift to facilitate a staged kidnapping. I suspect that Lisa was removed from the home before Dad went to work. Mom may had had the lights on late into the night while she cleaned house and got rid of any soiled sheets or clothing.

I think they ditched the cell phones thinking that it might keep LE from being able to track where they went to dispose of the body earlier in the day. Even if just one of the phones had calls or pings which could cast suspicion, they decided to ditch them all so there would not be a question of why the "kidnapper " would take one phone and not the others.

That's just my latest version. I'm sure it will change. MOO


I think the only thing burned in the dumpster was clothing or sheets or cleaning rags. Cell phones would stil be identifiable even if burned, and if they had tried to burn a body the fire wouldn't have completely consumed it and it would smell like a burned body.

All of that sounds plausible except for the older boys. How would they keep all of that secret from them?

passionflower
10-09-2011, 10:59 PM
When I was a young adult a neighbor teen who was mentally ill preyed on the area for years. He meandered all over at night and would spend many hours in houses with the occupants there sleeping. Eating, drinking their liquor, going through all the drawers. He would take their cigs, lighters, wallets and anything else right off their nightstands. Most people never woke and caught him. IIRC there were only a couple of times he was caught and arrested. there were many nights this kid went on a mini crime spree in a single night. Breaking into houses, cars, lighting things on fire, letting dogs out of their yards and houses.

like tommy coslin's? Haleigh's uncle...........

passionflower
10-09-2011, 11:00 PM
News time ! Live link?

SuziQ
10-09-2011, 11:01 PM
Now that's scary!

It was super creepy. It's a good thing he wasn't dangerous in the classic sense other than the little fires on the front lawns. My friend woke up to him kneeling by her bed and his face inches from hers. She went balistic screaming hysterically and he ran. He had a ski mask on so he couldn't be ID'd for an arrest, but everyone knew it was this kid. That same night he slashed my tires.

Just K
10-09-2011, 11:02 PM
Several cat ailments have an incubation period in which you'd notice nothing abnormal for several days to a couple weeks. There's ringworm to consider, tape worms, fleas, scabies an other parasites. I'm not your typical cat lover either. I used to run a rescue that specialized in cats. I absolutely adore them and it's nothing for me to cart home a dumpster kitty occasionally, even now. Under NO circumstances would I put a newly acquired cat/kitten near my child..especially in close proximity to another child who's sick and is obviously going to potentially have an already compromised immune system. You can vaccinate what you have...but what you bring in may have something you can't see.
Of course, consider that I'm wrapped entirely too tight over the sick cat thing after some of what I've witnessed in the years I spent in rescue work. The average person just doesn't know what could happen. Worst case, you could unknowingly bring in a cat who looks perfectly healthy, but in reality carries the rabies virus. Pretty scary, huh?

Then there is Feline Aids, Feline Leukemia, and Feline Herpes...none can be seen and if you have other cats you can unknowingly infect your whole feline family.

EllaMae
10-09-2011, 11:02 PM
If a parent accidentally overdosed their child on a medication that made the child sleepy, the child would just go to sleep and might never wake up. The parents would not know that they had OD the child until they found the child dead. There would not be an ER visit or poison control call. This is the precise danger of giving adult cough syrups that contain dextromethorphan to children.

But that would still not be a good reason to stage a fake kidnapping. It would still be an accidental death.

And cadaver dogs would surely hit on the crib.....

RANCH
10-09-2011, 11:03 PM
Post #61 above gives the interview in context and the link. She was referring to LE.

Thanks mck16. That clears it up for me. Debbies not mad at LE, their just doing their job so to speak. Here's a link to that post.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - MO AMBER ALERT: Lisa Irwin, 10 months, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011 #12

neesaki
10-09-2011, 11:03 PM
(thank you BeanE for gathering these)
#LisaIrwin's mom:We want to thank everybody who has helped us so far.
1 minute ago

#LisaIrwin's mom: we are not angry, we just want our daughter home, that's all we care about.
2 minutes ago


----------------------



I see no problem w/ DB's statements in this interview. Dr. Glass certainly has some credentials, but she also likes the limelight and the drama, so you have to take what she says with this in mind, IMO.

BeanE
10-09-2011, 11:03 PM
I'd be mad as heck if LE kept examining me and I knew I was innocent.

But then again, the Ramseys (JonBenet's parents) acted angry and I didn't like it. I thought they acted arrogant.

So it might be a "no win" situation.

I'd be devastated and very angry if LE was saying "You killed her" about my baby, and I knew I hadn't, and I knew she was kidnapped, and they were accusing me instead of going out and rescuing her from her kidnapper.

grandmaj
10-09-2011, 11:04 PM
I'd be mad as heck if LE kept examining me and I knew I was innocent.

But then again, the Ramseys (JonBenet's parents) acted angry and I didn't like it. I thought they acted arrogant.

So it might be a "no win" situation.

I'd be angry too. But I would sit there and stomp my feet, cry, insist on my innocence and answer the same questions hundreds of times in order to get them to believe me so that my baby would be found.

This is the part that is nagging at me. They took a 2 day break. Well WTH was happening with their baby while they took a 2 days break? Or do they know already. I'm not sure what I believe happened. I guess I'm still on the fence. But walking out on LE.

Who are other parents who have done this rather than dig in and answer questions?.

Croslin/Cummings
Billie Dunn

Who else?

AlexLouise44
10-09-2011, 11:04 PM
I thought about little Lisa last night when I had to get my 20 month old up to change his stinky diaper at 1am. I turned the hallway light on but it was still very dark in our room (he still sleeps in a crib in our room due to space issues!). While I was changing him and he was still half asleep I thought about Lisa. It is entirely possible that she may have been half-asleep and not making much noise. Even when the cold wipes going on his little behind (poor little guy) he didn't so much as squeak. I don't know what my take on the truth behind what really happened to beautiful little Lisa, all I know is that when I watch my 20 month old son sleep, I can't understand how anyone in this entire world could want to harm such a defensive wonderful little human being.

Hoping Lisa comes home VERY soon. Now if possible!!!

passionflower
10-09-2011, 11:05 PM
But that would still not be a good reason to stage a fake kidnapping. It would still be an accidental death.

And cadaver dogs would surely hit on the crib.....

were dogs brought into house?

wfgodot
10-09-2011, 11:05 PM
It was super creepy. It's a good thing he wasn't dangerous in the classic sense other than the little fires on the front lawns. My friend woke up to him kneeling by her bed and his face inches from hers. She went balistic screaming hysterically and he ran. He had a ski mask on so he couldn't be ID'd for an arrest, but everyone knew it was this kid. That same night he slashed my tires.
My hometown had and has a state hospital and training center for the mentally challenged, moderate to severe; its grounds are open and right in the middle of a northside neighborhood. Similar stuff happened - a patient in your kitchen eating your cornflakes maybe, or trying on your robe after getting it off the hook behind the bathroom door, that sort of thing. Not as creepy/eerie as your situation though! And only in the daytime.

SarahW
10-09-2011, 11:05 PM
Did anyone listen to Dr. Lillian Glass on WS radio? I liked her analysis of the whole thing. Especially the part where she talked about DB saying that they were not mad. She said, "I would be mad if anyone stole anything of mine, not to mention my child" i thought she made a good point. I have been listening to her for years, and to me she always is spot on.

She's taking that out of context though. DB is talking about the rough treatment by the PD, acknowledging they are doing their job. DB isn't all copacetic with having her baby stolen.

Even on that point (though it had nothing to do with what she was or wasn't mad about), I think alternating grief and worry and guilt and terror and attempts to tamp it down with hope and trying to hold it together to help find her baby are probably taking precedence over the luxury of impotent rage at the perpetrator

neesaki
10-09-2011, 11:05 PM
I never understood when that was said that she was talking about the kidnapper but rather LE.

She was talking about LE, not the kidnapper.

BeanE
10-09-2011, 11:06 PM
Video of tonight's vigil:

EricKCTV5 Eric Chaloux
twitvid.com/XABM4 - Vigil for #LisaIrwin---outside family's house.
1 hour ago

SuziQ
10-09-2011, 11:06 PM
like tommy coslin's? Haleigh's uncle...........

Alot like him!

EllaMae
10-09-2011, 11:06 PM
There is something else that I was thinking of that makes the intruder perp story less plausible to me. DB says she closes all the door, even the bedroom doors, at night. So the perp comes in, and selects the right door to kidnap Lisa. He/she doesn't accidentally open the wrong doors, or if he/she does it wakes no one?

If the kidnapper was not a stranger, then he/she would know where the baby's room was, so no guessing would be necessary.

BeanE
10-09-2011, 11:08 PM
EricKCTV5 Eric Chaloux
KCPD went to WYCO to investigate lead in #LisaIrwin case. We will show you where and why when the news starts at 1030 on KCTV5 News.
24 seconds ago

Just K
10-09-2011, 11:08 PM
All of that sounds plausible except for the older boys. How would they keep all of that secret from them?

Maybe they were at school. In the evening maybe mom kept them out of the baby's room by saying that she was sick and that it was best to let her sleep. The boys had a neighbor's child, a movie and the new kitten to keep them occupied.

wfgodot
10-09-2011, 11:09 PM
EricKCTV5 Eric Chaloux
KCPD went to WYCO to investigate lead in #LisaIrwin case. We will show you where and why when the news starts at 1030 on KCTV5 News.
24 seconds ago
WYCO = Wyandotte County KS, just across the river.

passionflower
10-09-2011, 11:10 PM
EricKCTV5 Eric Chaloux
KCPD went to WYCO to investigate lead in #LisaIrwin case. We will show you where and why when the news starts at 1030 on KCTV5 News.
24 seconds ago

BBM why??? wht does that mean?

curiositycat
10-09-2011, 11:10 PM
She's taking that out of context though. DB is talking about the rough treatment by the PD, acknowledging they are doing their job. DB isn't all copacetic with having her baby stolen.

Even on that point (though it had nothing to do with what she was or wasn't mad about), I think alternating grief and worry and guilt and terror and attempts to tamp it down with hope and trying to hold it together to help find her baby are probably taking precedence over the luxury of impotent rage at the perpetrator

Actually she didn't. It was me who took it out of context when I wanted to discuss her interpretation of the parent's body language.

I thought more folks had listened to it.

I am so sorry for all the confusion. Forgive me all.

RANCH
10-09-2011, 11:11 PM
I'd be angry too. But I would sit there and stomp my feet, cry, insist on my innocence and answer the same questions hundreds of times in order to get them to believe me so that my baby would be found.

This is the part that is nagging at me. They took a 2 day break. Well WTH was happening with their baby while they took a 2 days break? Or do they know already. I'm not sure what I believe happened. I guess I'm still on the fence. But walking out on LE.

Who are other parents who have done this rather than dig in and answer questions?.

Croslin/Cummings
Billie Dunn

Who else?
I have to apologize that I haven't followed this case as close as others have. But I didn't know that the parents took a 2 day break from this. Did they break off contact with LE and the media for 2 days? If so, your right, that's pretty bad.

EllaMae
10-09-2011, 11:13 PM
were dogs brought into house?

I thought they were, but I could be wrong. I do know that there were dogs used. I can't believe that they weren't taken into the house.

wfgodot
10-09-2011, 11:15 PM
Maybe a two day break from talking to an accusatory LE, but one also with media interviews to get the word out, etc. It's not like they were just sitting at home, feet propped on the ottoman, watching the world go by. If they're telling the truth they must also be devastated.

Wendy101
10-09-2011, 11:15 PM
Yes, she said "We aren't mad", I believe it's on the interview with ABC on Friday. She said it a couple of times.

I believe Trisha said she sent Dr. Glass a video to watch and then comment on re: the body language, ect.

:maddening: I am sorry, but I am sick of her tlaking for her husband! Gawd, le the man talk! Or is there a reason she doesn't want him to talk?:furious:

katydid23
10-09-2011, 11:15 PM
I have to apologize that I haven't followed this case as close as others have. But I didn't know that the parents took a 2 day break from this. Did they break off contact with LE and the media for 2 days? If so, your right, that's pretty bad.

But also I read that LE was interrogating them for 11 hours at a time. I could see myself wanting a break and walking away from that for a day or two. Mom has the two other boys, who really need her attention too right now. And she must be devastated, no matter what happened. So I can understand why she might need a break from interviews to try and get her bearings again.

grandmaj
10-09-2011, 11:17 PM
I have to apologize that I haven't followed this case as close as others have. But I didn't know that the parents took a 2 day break from this. Did they break off contact with LE and the media for 2 days? If so, your right, that's pretty bad.

Yes they did from LE. On Thursday night is was announced they were not cooperating by the lead investigator . A special news conference was held to announce it. A family spokesperson said that wasn't true. On Friday I think it was the father said they needed a day off. Yet they made the talk show circuits.

On Saturday LE opened the door to further discussions. And late Saturday I think they did finally connect although I think it was via phone.

Irish_Eyes
10-09-2011, 11:17 PM
I'd be angry too. But I would sit there and stomp my feet, cry, insist on my innocence and answer the same questions hundreds of times in order to get them to believe me so that my baby would be found.

This is the part that is nagging at me. They took a 2 day break. Well WTH was happening with their baby while they took a 2 days break? Or do they know already. I'm not sure what I believe happened. I guess I'm still on the fence. But walking out on LE.

Who are other parents who have done this rather than dig in and answer questions?.

Croslin/Cummings
Billie Dunn

Who else?

Ramseys

SarahW
10-09-2011, 11:18 PM
When I was a young adult a neighbor teen who was mentally ill preyed on the area for years. He meandered all over at night and would spend many hours in houses with the occupants there sleeping. Eating, drinking their liquor, going through all the drawers. He would take their cigs, lighters, wallets and anything else right off their nightstands. Most people never woke and caught him. IIRC there were only a couple of times he was caught and arrested. there were many nights this kid went on a mini crime spree in a single night. Breaking into houses, cars, lighting things on fire, letting dogs out of their yards and houses.

The "voice in my head" is whispering that a schizophrenic/impulse control disordered individual is behind the disappearance of the baby.

Maybe Young was trying to send a message to families or friends of persons with such troubles, and to not dismiss any sign or strange coincidences or circumstances if any come to mind in recent actions or behaviors of the affected individual.

Rallihanna
10-09-2011, 11:18 PM
The fact is- they can be mad at LE all they want. They need their manpower if they truly want to find Lisa. Still don't like how this is headed...

shefner
10-09-2011, 11:19 PM
My hometown had and has a state hospital and training center for the mentally challenged, moderate to severe; its grounds are open and right in the middle of a northside neighborhood. Similar stuff happened - a patient in your kitchen eating your cornflakes maybe, or trying on your robe after getting it off the hook behind the bathroom door, that sort of thing. Not as creepy/eerie as your situation though! And only in the daytime.

I don't know, Woof....I think a stranger wearing my bathrobe and eating cereal in my kitchen is pretty dang creepy.

passionflower
10-09-2011, 11:19 PM
This is deje vu for some reason...........

SuziQ
10-09-2011, 11:20 PM
I have to apologize that I haven't followed this case as close as others have. But I didn't know that the parents took a 2 day break from this. Did they break off contact with LE and the media for 2 days? If so, your right, that's pretty bad.

Taking a break kept getting mentioned by the media. At one point a relative stated a break from the media? Other than today, IMO, it doesn't appear that the parents took a break at all. They were active in some form or another. There were several interviews with the media and contacts with LE and the FBI. And that's just what we were made aware of. They may be doing other things as well we just aren't aware of. IMO, much more was made about taking a break than what it was in reality.

passionflower
10-09-2011, 11:20 PM
Ramseys

Casey Anthony (31 days) lies

Pensfan
10-09-2011, 11:20 PM
Why and who would want to kidnap a 10 month baby girl in the middle of the night?

Do we have proof that baby Lisa was sick?
Or just the word of parents?

Was she cutting teeth? cranky?
How much sleep did dad get that day?

The birthday party was 2 days before IIRC.
Anything odd at the party?
I can't find a link, but IIRC the grandfather mentioned that Lisa had a cold/flu on the day of the birthday party.

wfgodot
10-09-2011, 11:20 PM
I don't know, Woof....I think a stranger wearing my bathrobe and eating cereal in my kitchen is pretty dang creepy.
I dated a girl in h.s. days from that neighborhood. Her family would find the same poor little guy, in their kitchen sorting through the refrigerator, or coming down the stairs wearing their shoes he'd tried on and left on - clearly oversized, etc. etc. They got used to it. (Not sure I could!)

cluciano63
10-09-2011, 11:21 PM
Wouldn't they have already provided LE with the name of every possible person who knew where Lisa slept? Seems that people who had been in the house should have been first to be investigated and ruled out (or not.) So if it is someone they know, where is the baby? Someone, somewhere came home with a 10-month old blond-haired baby. Someone would notice. Someone would need to buys lots of things they might not normally buy. I don't think this was done by some random person, coming into a home with some lights on in the middle of the night. JMO

Jaxson
10-09-2011, 11:22 PM
Maybe a two day break from talking to an accusatory LE, but one also with media interviews to get the word out, etc. It's not like they were just sitting at home, feet propped on the ottoman, watching the world go by. If they're telling the truth they must also be devastated.


I don't think 2 days is correct anyway. They left police headquarters Thursday night. Saturday morning at ten they were on the phone with LE instead of doing a scheduled interview and later Saturday they went back in to LE offices to talk again. Two nights of sleeping (possibly) but really only one full day.

passionflower
10-09-2011, 11:22 PM
I can't find a link, but IIRC the grandfather mentioned that Lisa had a cold/flu on the day of the birthday party.

In the pics she looks great and happy?????

RANCH
10-09-2011, 11:22 PM
:maddening: I am sorry, but I am sick of her tlaking for her husband! Gawd, le the man talk! Or is there a reason she doesn't want him to talk?:furious:

Are you saying Debbie won't let Jeremy talk? What makes you say that? Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding your post.

KaylynnCouture
10-09-2011, 11:22 PM
Casey Anthony (31 days) lies

Ugh. Just reading her name makes me cringe. :furious:

wfgodot
10-09-2011, 11:23 PM
I don't think 2 days is correct anyway. They left police headquarters Thursday night. Saturday morning at ten they were on the phone with LE instead of doing a scheduled interview and later Saturday they went back in to LE offices to talk again. Two nights of sleeping (possibly) but really only one full day.
Thanks, Jaxson. That does sound more like it.

grandmaj
10-09-2011, 11:23 PM
But also I read that LE was interrogating them for 11 hours at a time. I could see myself wanting a break and walking away from that for a day or two. Mom has the two other boys, who really need her attention too right now. And she must be devastated, no matter what happened. So I can understand why she might need a break from interviews to try and get her bearings again.

OK I see what you are saying. But look at it from the eyes of LE. They are doing their job. Their job is to ask the same questions over and over and over until they are sure that the parties are telling the truth or they wear them down and they tell what they know. That is why the long interviews. They gauge your reactions and how you answer and if you change your story.

When you walk out of that process what does it tell LE? That they hit a nerve somewhere?

Boodles
10-09-2011, 11:23 PM
I have to apologize that I haven't followed this case as close as others have. But I didn't know that the parents took a 2 day break from this. Did they break off contact with LE and the media for 2 days? If so, your right, that's pretty bad.

Perhaps they were angered about the "bullying tactics" of LE's questioning. I am trying to imagine how I would react if LE was yelling in my face: "C'mon, we know you killed her, fess up, tell us the truth, we know you did it." Maybe I would say "to he77 with you..." and walk out. But then again, my desperation to find my daughter would likely override that anger. I doubt I could bear to walk away from LE for 2 days....maybe just 2 hours.

Or perhaps they needed time to re-group and solidify more details about their story.

It's anyone's guess.

mrye4709
10-09-2011, 11:24 PM
Any updates on the local news? What was the lead in the other county?

SuziQ
10-09-2011, 11:24 PM
I've been giving some thought to being able to juggle a baby and take the cell phones. It wasn't cell phones, but it was a daily occurance for me when my kids were little. Baby on hip, purse and diaper bag over one shoulder, stop to pick up my glasses, keys, cellphone. And then you think about all the perps who commit crimes wearing hoodies. I'm not kidding, just listen to the scanner chatter bolo descriptions sometime. Just shove the phones in the front pockets.

curiositycat
10-09-2011, 11:25 PM
From what I have seen online at all the KC MO television stations and the KC star newspaper, the one family member who has been holding prayer vigils, putting out flyers, trying to raise money for a reward is Jeremy's sister, Ashley. She is young, but she is really doing something constructive. JMOO

shefner
10-09-2011, 11:26 PM
I dated a girl in h.s. days from that neighborhood. Her family would find the same poor little guy, in their kitchen sorting through the refrigerator, or coming down the stairs wearing their shoes he'd tried on and left on - clearly oversized, etc. etc. They got used to it. (Not sure I could!)


Good Lord, man! You should have married this girl. She was obviously very relaxed...and non-combative.

gliving
10-09-2011, 11:27 PM
But also I read that LE was interrogating them for 11 hours at a time. I could see myself wanting a break and walking away from that for a day or two. Mom has the two other boys, who really need her attention too right now. And she must be devastated, no matter what happened. So I can understand why she might need a break from interviews to try and get her bearings again.

I agree. At that point other family members pitched in to answer the media questions. I'd be hard pressed not to be found in the fetal position crying my heart out. I don't know how the parents of missing children give interviews, but they do. I admire their courage and strength.

Pensfan
10-09-2011, 11:27 PM
I dated a girl in h.s. days from that neighborhood. Her family would find the same poor little guy, in their kitchen sorting through the refrigerator, or coming down the stairs wearing their shoes he'd tried on and left on - clearly oversized, etc. etc. They got used to it. (Not sure I could!)
My sons' teenage friends who hung out too frequently and ate up all our groceries qualified as "creepy crawlers", but I didn't know that until 1 minute ago. lol

Tuffy
10-09-2011, 11:28 PM
Wouldn't they have already provided LE with the name of every possible person who knew where Lisa slept? Seems that people who had been in the house should have been first to be investigated and ruled out (or not.) So if it is someone they know, where is the baby? Someone, somewhere came home with a 10-month old blond-haired baby. Someone would notice. Someone would need to buys lots of things they might not normally buy. I don't think this was done by some random person, coming into a home with some lights on in the middle of the night. JMO

Unless the perp no longer has Lisa with them. :(

cluciano63
10-09-2011, 11:28 PM
Are you saying Debbie won't let Jeremy talk? What makes you say that? Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding your post.

She does seem to answer before he has a chance to...can't tell if it is her way, or if she is doing it because she was the one who was "there" or what...JMO

passionflower
10-09-2011, 11:29 PM
I've been giving some thought to being able to juggle a baby and take the cell phones. It wasn't cell phones, but it was a daily occurance for me when my kids were little. Baby on hip, purse and diaper bag over one shoulder, stop to pick up my glasses, keys, cellphone. And then you think about all the perps who commit crimes wearing hoodies. I'm not kidding, just listen to the scanner chatter bolo descriptions sometime. Just shove the phones in the front pockets.

I have to laugh at your post alittle because my hubby calls me an octapus.
Women do it all the time, but do men? My hubby can't do 3 things at a time!
esp with a baby.

liz b.
10-09-2011, 11:29 PM
But also I read that LE was interrogating them for 11 hours at a time. I could see myself wanting a break and walking away from that for a day or two. Mom has the two other boys, who really need her attention too right now. And she must be devastated, no matter what happened. So I can understand why she might need a break from interviews to try and get her bearings again.

Are the 2 boys back with their parents ?

wfgodot
10-09-2011, 11:30 PM
Good Lord, man! You should have married this girl. She was obviously very relaxed...and non-combative.
Great family - great big (seven or eight kids), laid back. Used to having people in and out, around the house - one more didn't hurt.

MsDetective
10-09-2011, 11:31 PM
If the kidnapper was not a stranger, then he/she would know where the baby's room was, so no guessing would be necessary.

It would also explain why the dog didn't bark.

RANCH
10-09-2011, 11:31 PM
OK I see what you are saying. But look at it from the eyes of LE. They are doing their job. Their job is to ask the same questions over and over and over until they are sure that the parties are telling the truth or they wear them down and they tell what they know. That is why the long interviews. They gauge your reactions and how you answer and if you change your story.

When you walk out of that process what does it tell LE? That they hit a nerve somewhere?
I see your point but there has to be a limit somewhere on how long an interview can last. Or on repeated interviews.

cluciano63
10-09-2011, 11:31 PM
Unless the perp no longer has Lisa with them. :(

Well...assuming the baby is alive, someone has turned up with a new (not newborn) baby...it's not like the old days, I don't know if you can even go see a doctor with a baby that many months old without someone wanting some info on the baby's history. I guess I am just not seeing someone taking this baby in this bold manner only to hand her off to someone else...and it is hard to see this as a revenge act, because kidnapping is such a serious felony; who wants to risk life in prison to get "back" at someone? I've never heard of that actually happening, except maybe in the world of heavy drug dealing...JMO (NOT suggesting a drug connection.)

MsFacetious
10-09-2011, 11:31 PM
I agree that it is not usually both. But there are that rare breed of crazy, creepy intruders that do not fit the usual mode.

Your average opportunity burglar, finding an open front door is going to grab the cell phones and look around for anything else they can quickly take. But they also do not usually turn on all of the lights. [ if they did so]

But there are crazy transients who do weird things that make no sense. And these are the types of perps that make a crime scene really confusing and it makes the innocent victims look possibly guilty because of all of the inconsistent circumstances.

There has been more than one case where a burglar went in and had no intention of taking anyone... then saw a young child (even 2 year old) and thought they might want to take that child.

It would not be the first time a burglary turned into a kidnapping.

It also wouldn't be the first time that occurred and a parent was under suspicion... or even was arrested for the crime before the real suspect was caught.

I have left out disturbing details of both of these cases. Both articles contain those details and both cases have threads on Websleuths.


http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/11/aaron-noyer-of-pennsylvania-sentenced-to-life-in-murder-of-2-yea/

Aaron Noyer sentenced to life for murder of 2 year old Elizabeth....

When Noyer was brought in for questioning, he allegedly told police he had climbed through the girl's bedroom window to burglarize the home.

During the burglary, Noyer abducted Elizabeth and took her to a nearby area...


http://abcnews.go.com/2020/riley-fox-parents-speak-scott-eby-charged-murder/story?id=10878773

The Foxes' attorney, Kathleen Zellner, said Eby confessed to killing Riley after first burglarizing another house on the same block -- an important clue that the Foxes said police at the time ignored.

According to Zellner, Eby cut through the back door of the Fox house, pushed the door in, and saw Riley sleeping on the couch in the living room.

Zellner said Eby formed the intent to kidnap Riley after he saw that her father was asleep.

http://archive.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/06/records-suspect-in-riley-fox-slaying-left-shoes-behind.html


Riley Fox's Dad spent months in jail after being arrested for her rape and murder. He was released after DNA cleared him.
Though they never connected the shoes with the last name EBY... found in the water with Riley's body... to a suspect.
It was another 6 years before they charged Scott EBY with her murder.

shefner
10-09-2011, 11:32 PM
Great family - great big (seven or eight kids), laid back. Used to having people in and out, around the house, lol.


Well, obviously their wax is still intact.

katydid23
10-09-2011, 11:34 PM
Are the 2 boys back with their parents ?

Probably not, but I meant in general, they needed to see her and be comforted some. Even if they are with other family members.

wfgodot
10-09-2011, 11:34 PM
Well, obviously their wax is still intact.

No plummeting seaward in that clan. Actually, come to think of it, I dated two of the sisters. (Not at the same time!)

RANCH
10-09-2011, 11:37 PM
She does seem to answer before he has a chance to...can't tell if it is her way, or if she is doing it because she was the one who was "there" or what...JMO
Ok. Media interviews. I guess the tv person should ask a more direct question to Jeremey if Debbie keeps answering for him. MOO.

passionflower
10-09-2011, 11:38 PM
It's 10:37 there now, any news?

shefner
10-09-2011, 11:38 PM
No plummeting seaward in that clan. Actually, come to think of it, I dated two of the sisters. (Not at the same time!)


Aha! You sound as much like an Eros as an Icarus. More wings, more wings.

grandmaj
10-09-2011, 11:39 PM
I see your point but there has to be a limit somewhere on how long an interview can last. Or on repeated interviews.

It was more than that. There was some misunderstanding.... something happened Thursday afternoon and the parents sped away. This is the beginning. It is all in the time line.



***Debbie and Jeremy have a heated discussion with LE before speeding off in police car to command center to find out about possible new lead. http://www.fox4kc.com/news/wdaf-lisa...,5671503.story

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**the list of suspects provided by the parents is now up to 12.---suspects all cleared
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Capt. Young: "the mother and father no longer want to cooperate with detectives."

Read more: http://livewire.kmbc.com/Event/Live_...#ixzz1a391r9l4

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by BeanE
file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Melissa/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif
--thank you BeanE
Capt. Young: "There is no doubt they informed us that they no longer wish to cooperate with the investigation."
by Brian Foster - KMBC.com... 8:05 PM

TravelingBug
10-09-2011, 11:40 PM
Well...assuming the baby is alive, someone has turned up with a new (not newborn) baby...it's not like the old days, I don't know if you can even go see a doctor with a baby that many months old without someone wanting some info on the baby's history. I guess I am just not seeing someone taking this baby in this bold manner only to hand her off to someone else...and it is hard to see this as a revenge act, because kidnapping is such a serious felony; who wants to risk life in prison to get "back" at someone? I've never heard of that actually happening, except maybe in the world of heavy drug dealing...JMO (NOT suggesting a drug connection.)

I don't know...with "minute clinics" couldn't they take a child and arouse less suspicion? Many of my friends have been paying out of pocket instead of using insurance at those b/c the cost is cheaper...not using insurance couldn't someone pull it off with a child perhaps?

Or if someone with a child of similar age (or one where family/friends were expecting one of that age even if they'd not seen her prior) could pass Lisa off as their own.

gliving
10-09-2011, 11:40 PM
This is deje vu for some reason...........

Yep, Danielle Van Dam and I fear the worse.

liz b.
10-09-2011, 11:42 PM
Probably not, but I meant in general, they needed to see her and be comforted some. Even if they are with other family members.

Oh, I wasn't aware that the boys had been spending time with Deb and Jeremy...

katydid23
10-09-2011, 11:42 PM
I don't know...with "minute clinics" couldn't they take a child and arouse less suspicion? Many of my friends have been paying out of pocket instead of using insurance at those b/c the cost is cheaper...not using insurance couldn't someone pull it off with a child perhaps?

Or if someone with a child of similar age (or one where family/friends were expecting one of that age even if they'd not seen her prior) could pass Lisa off as their own.

And here in Los Angeles anyone can buy fake documents, like birth certificates right on the street.

katydid23
10-09-2011, 11:43 PM
Oh, I wasn't aware that the boys had been spending time with Deb and Jeremy...

I don't know if they are or not. I was just assuming that she would want to spend time with her son, who must be devastated, poor thing.

liz b.
10-09-2011, 11:44 PM
I don't know if they are or not. I was just assuming that she would want to spend time with her son, who must be devastated, poor thing.

Yes. you would think so...

cluciano63
10-09-2011, 11:44 PM
In the recent case in Canada, which was one of the few stranger kidnappings from a home in recent years, LE had a ready-made suspect and sure enough...

This is a bold kidnapping, if it happened and was a stranger, and probably not a first crime. And probably someone who lives nearby would fit the "profile". Seems like any neighborhood "creeps" would have been brought to LE's attention by now, and they said they have looked at the RSO's. So if not a registered sex offender, what other crimes might proceed a "home invasion/kidnapping" I wonder? I think it would have to be someone with a criminal record. JMO

Dr.Fessel
10-09-2011, 11:45 PM
There has been more than one case where a burglar went in and had no intention of taking anyone... then saw a young child (even 2 year old) and thought they might want to take that child.

It would not be the first time a burglary turned into a kidnapping.

It also wouldn't be the first time that occurred and a parent was under suspicion... or even was arrested for the crime before the real suspect was caught.

I have left out disturbing details of both of these cases. Both articles contain those details and both cases have threads on Websleuths.


http://www.aolnews.com/2011/03/11/aaron-noyer-of-pennsylvania-sentenced-to-life-in-murder-of-2-yea/

Aaron Noyer sentenced to life for murder of 2 year old Elizabeth....

When Noyer was brought in for questioning, he allegedly told police he had climbed through the girl's bedroom window to burglarize the home.

During the burglary, Noyer abducted Elizabeth and took her to a nearby area...


http://abcnews.go.com/2020/riley-fox-parents-speak-scott-eby-charged-murder/story?id=10878773

The Foxes' attorney, Kathleen Zellner, said Eby confessed to killing Riley after first burglarizing another house on the same block -- an important clue that the Foxes said police at the time ignored.

According to Zellner, Eby cut through the back door of the Fox house, pushed the door in, and saw Riley sleeping on the couch in the living room.

Zellner said Eby formed the intent to kidnap Riley after he saw that her father was asleep.

http://archive.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/06/records-suspect-in-riley-fox-slaying-left-shoes-behind.html


Riley Fox's Dad spent months in jail after being arrested for her rape and murder. He was released after DNA cleared him.
Though they never connected the shoes with the last name EBY... found in the water with Riley's body... to a suspect.
It was another 6 years before they charged Scott EBY with her murder.

On October 27th, 2004, the Defendants wrapped up what can be best characterized as a botched investigation of the murder of 4-year-old Riley Fox. Having made critical mistakes in the early stages of the investigation resulting in the destruction of key evidence, Defendants, in a last desperate effort to close the case on the eve of an election, made their move on an easy target - the 27 year old father of Riley Fox. A young man with no knowledge of the criminal justice system in Illinois and its shameful history of false confessions and wrongful convictions, Kevin Fox was best known for being a great father to his children and a bit too trusting of authority figures. Seeing no need for an attorney because he had “nothing to hide”, Kevin walked into a locked room from which he may never return. After hearing hours of threats, lies about the evidence, and promises about a ”deal”, Kevin Fox fell victim to a lethal game of bait and switch.

Believing he had only two options, a 30 year to life sentence with the promise of daily sexual assaults and years of separation from his family or, the bait, a 3-5 year sentence for involuntary manslaughter and immediate release on bond, he chose the later, at the price of agreeing to a fabricated story.

The switch occurred on October 27th when Kevin Fox learned he had not only been tricked into a first degree murder charge but the lethal game ended in the coveted prize for the State - a chance to get a lethal injection.

https://antipolygraph.org/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.pl?num=1146566231

RANCH
10-09-2011, 11:45 PM
It was more than that. There was some misunderstanding.... something happened Thursday afternoon and the parents sped away. This is the beginning. It is all in the time line.



***Debbie and Jeremy have a heated discussion with LE before speeding off in police car to command center to find out about possible new lead. http://www.fox4kc.com/news/wdaf-lisa...,5671503.story

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**the list of suspects provided by the parents is now up to 12.---suspects all cleared
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Capt. Young: "the mother and father no longer want to cooperate with detectives."

Read more: http://livewire.kmbc.com/Event/Live_...#ixzz1a391r9l4

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by BeanE
file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Melissa/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif
--thank you BeanE
Capt. Young: "There is no doubt they informed us that they no longer wish to cooperate with the investigation."
by Brian Foster - KMBC.com... 8:05 PM

Shame, the links are broke on this timeline. I'm curious as to why Debbie and Jeremy sped off in a police car.

grandmaj
10-09-2011, 11:46 PM
Go here and the links will work. I just copy and pasted Ranch.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150977&highlight=lisa+irwin+timeline

SuziQ
10-09-2011, 11:47 PM
I have to laugh at your post alittle because my hubby calls me an octapus.
Women do it all the time, but do men? My hubby can't do 3 things at a time!
esp with a baby.

Moms should be able to grow an extra arm or two while pregnant. lol.

katydid23
10-09-2011, 11:48 PM
In the recent case in Canada, which was one of the few stranger kidnappings from a home in recent years, LE had a ready-made suspect and sure enough...

This is a bold kidnapping, if it happened and was a stranger, and probably not a first crime. And probably someone who lives nearby would fit the "profile". Seems like any neighborhood "creeps" would have been brought to LE's attention by now, and they said they have looked at the RSO's. So if not a registered sex offender, what other crimes might proceed a "home invasion/kidnapping" I wonder? I think it would have to be someone with a criminal record. JMO

I agree. But my mind keeps going to freaky teens on meth. They might not have any records yet, and would be 'bold' because they are stupid.

I know that teens do not usually want infants. I just wonder if they knew someone who wanted a child, like a mother who had lost a child recently/

I hope it is something like that anyway.

gliving
10-09-2011, 11:48 PM
It was more than that. There was some misunderstanding.... something happened Thursday afternoon and the parents sped away. This is the beginning. It is all in the time line.



***Debbie and Jeremy have a heated discussion with LE before speeding off in police car to command center to find out about possible new lead. http://www.fox4kc.com/news/wdaf-lisa...,5671503.story

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**the list of suspects provided by the parents is now up to 12.---suspects all cleared
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Capt. Young: "the mother and father no longer want to cooperate with detectives."

Read more: http://livewire.kmbc.com/Event/Live_...#ixzz1a391r9l4

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by BeanE
file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Melissa/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif
--thank you BeanE
Capt. Young: "There is no doubt they informed us that they no longer wish to cooperate with the investigation."
by Brian Foster - KMBC.com... 8:05 PM

There is a video of Capt Young from that afternoon explaining the animated conversation. He said it was a mis-communication. I'll try to find it for you.
ETA Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - MO MO - AMBER ALERT: Lisa Irwin, 10 months, Kansas City, 4 Oct 2011 - #4

Alas, no more video!

my_tee_mouse
10-09-2011, 11:48 PM
There is something else that I was thinking of that makes the intruder perp story less plausible to me. DB says she closes all the doors, even the bedroom doors, at night. So the perp comes in, and selects the right door to kidnap Lisa. He/she doesn't accidentally open the wrong doors, or if he/she does it wakes no one?
Which simply adds to my belief that it was someone who knew the family, their routine, and their home pretty well.

passionflower
10-09-2011, 11:48 PM
IIRC, years go there was case of an open garage door kidnapping (in FLA???)
baby (about Lisa's age) never found, parents home bugged by LE but was that ever solved?
Mom babysat other kids.

Wendy101
10-09-2011, 11:48 PM
Are you saying Debbie won't let Jeremy talk? What makes you say that? Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding your post.

Yes, that is what I am saying. It seems to me that anytime he goes to open his mouth she butts in... like she did in the plea to the kidnapper.. I don;t have the link.....

bubblesdoe
10-09-2011, 11:49 PM
Shame, the links are broke on this timeline. I'm curious as to why Debbie and Jeremy sped off in a police car.


They actually sped off in a car or their car. It was not a police car. That was a discrepancy of several news sources all reporting things at once and not getting things accurate.

Sometimes I feel like this is all just a giant game of "Telephone" .

katydid23
10-09-2011, 11:50 PM
On October 27th, 2004, the Defendants wrapped up what can be best characterized as a botched investigation of the murder of 4-year-old Riley Fox. Having made critical mistakes in the early stages of the investigation resulting in the destruction of key evidence, Defendants, in a last desperate effort to close the case on the eve of an election, made their move on an easy target - the 27 year old father of Riley Fox. A young man with no knowledge of the criminal justice system in Illinois and its shameful history of false confessions and wrongful convictions, Kevin Fox was best known for being a great father to his children and a bit too trusting of authority figures. Seeing no need for an attorney because he had “nothing to hide”, Kevin walked into a locked room from which he may never return. After hearing hours of threats, lies about the evidence, and promises about a ”deal”, Kevin Fox fell victim to a lethal game of bait and switch.

Believing he had only two options, a 30 year to life sentence with the promise of daily sexual assaults and years of separation from his family or, the bait, a 3-5 year sentence for involuntary manslaughter and immediate release on bond, he chose the later, at the price of agreeing to a fabricated story.

The switch occurred on October 27th when Kevin Fox learned he had not only been tricked into a first degree murder charge but the lethal game ended in the coveted prize for the State - a chance to get a lethal injection.

https://antipolygraph.org/cgi-bin/forums/YaBB.pl?num=1146566231

I remember that devastating case. It kind of makes me think of this case. I hope it is not similar at all. :mad:

passionflower
10-09-2011, 11:52 PM
dear locals...........anything on news? twitter?

grandmaj
10-09-2011, 11:54 PM
There were 3 children in the house. Why the baby? A sick baby who is going to be a handful between teething, a cold, needing more care than an older child like diapers, feedings, baths etc.

I'm having a really difficult time with this theory except for in two cases. Grudge, or some crazed woman who wanted a baby. But, I keep coming back to no one hearing a thing. That bugs me. Opening doors and closing doors, and window screens out and lights being turned on and phones disappearing out of the kitchen? Someone was moving around that house not just a minute or two with a grab and run ya know?

And no one heard a thing even with a baby monitor on?

wfgodot
10-09-2011, 11:56 PM
dear locals...........anything on news? twitter?

The only "Kansas side of the border" news I saw on the local stations online was a report on the NASCAR race where the family handed out posters, and one other - which re-heated and re-served the Johnson County landfill story from last week.

SuziQ
10-09-2011, 11:56 PM
In the recent case in Canada, which was one of the few stranger kidnappings from a home in recent years, LE had a ready-made suspect and sure enough...

This is a bold kidnapping, if it happened and was a stranger, and probably not a first crime. And probably someone who lives nearby would fit the "profile". Seems like any neighborhood "creeps" would have been brought to LE's attention by now, and they said they have looked at the RSO's. So if not a registered sex offender, what other crimes might proceed a "home invasion/kidnapping" I wonder? I think it would have to be someone with a criminal record. JMO

Unless there are some unsolved burglaries that LE hasn't ID'd the perp in. I wonder if there is a way to obtain the crime blotter for say a five mile radius recently?

cleo612
10-09-2011, 11:56 PM
I agree. But my mind keeps going to freaky teens on meth. They might not have any records yet, and would be 'bold' because they are stupid.

I know that teens do not usually want infants. I just wonder if they knew someone who wanted a child, like a mother who had lost a child recently/

I hope it is something like that anyway.

Bolded by me....

Or even a drug dealer who might be into nefarious activities besides just drug dealing.....

A beautiful, blonde haired, blue eyed baby could bring a lot of money for some very ugly purposes.....

It makes me sick to think about it.

EllaMae
10-09-2011, 11:57 PM
IIRC, years go there was case of an open garage door kidnapping (in FLA???)
baby (about Lisa's age) never found, parents home bugged by LE but was that ever solved?
Mom babysat other kids.

Sabrina Aisenberg? I may not have the last name spelled correctly...

marge_rita
10-09-2011, 11:57 PM
There were 3 children in the house. Why the baby? A sick baby who is going to be a handful between teething, a cold, needing more care than an older child like diapers, feedings, baths etc.

I'm having a really difficult time with this theory except for in two cases. Grudge, or some crazed woman who wanted a baby. But, I keep coming back to no one hearing a thing. That bugs me. Opening doors and closing doors, and window screens out and lights being turned on and phones disappearing out of the kitchen? Someone was moving around that house not just a minute or two with a grab and run ya know?

And no one heard a thing even with a baby monitor on?

Wonder if LE is checking with local drug stores and grocery stores. Video tapes could possibly show someone buying baby items-while the baby is in the cart....

wfgodot
10-09-2011, 11:59 PM
Wonder if LE is checking with local drug stores and grocery stores. Video tapes could possibly show someone buying baby items-while the baby is in the cart....
Tough to do - hundreds and hundreds in the KC metro area of about two million people.

Jaxson
10-10-2011, 12:00 AM
The only "Kansas side of the border" news I saw on the local stations online was a report on the NASCAR race where the family handed out posters, and one other - which re-heated and re-served the Johnson County landfill story from last week.


Well shoot! What happened to that 'new' lead in Kansas?

belimom
10-10-2011, 12:02 AM
OT- I just read the Riley Fox story in the links posted above. That is terrible... Even though I think the mom had something to do with this, I think I'm going to back off publicly. I don't want to contribute to someone's unjust scrutiny in case she is innocent.

That poor Fox family... :(

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 12:02 AM
Here's the "handing out posters at the car race" story, this from the Kansas City Star:

Call for help in missing baby case moves to Kansas Speedway (http://www.kansascity.com/2011/10/09/3197095/call-for-help-in-missing-baby.html)

---
[Ashley] Irwin said they chose the Speedway because it attracts 100,000 fans and “people from all over the country.” She said they felt it was a worthwhile effort on a day when police reported no new progress in the search for the little girl.
---
more at link

liz b.
10-10-2011, 12:04 AM
IIRC, years go there was case of an open garage door kidnapping (in FLA???)
baby (about Lisa's age) never found, parents home bugged by LE but was that ever solved?
Mom babysat other kids.

I think it was little Sabrina Eisenberg. No, AFAIK it was never solved....LE bugged the house, and supposedly heard a convo between the parents having to do with an accident with the baby and her dad using cocaine. It was too distorted to really hear.Parents denied any involvement. The parents moved back to MD,where I think one or both of them were from... I'm fairly sure there was a lawsuit later... MOO

curiositycat
10-10-2011, 12:04 AM
There were 3 children in the house. Why the baby? A sick baby who is going to be a handful between teething, a cold, needing more care than an older child like diapers, feedings, baths etc.

I'm having a really difficult time with this theory except for in two cases. Grudge, or some crazed woman who wanted a baby. But, I keep coming back to no one hearing a thing. That bugs me. Opening doors and closing doors, and window screens out and lights being turned on and phones disappearing out of the kitchen? Someone was moving around that house not just a minute or two with a grab and run ya know?

And no one heard a thing even with a baby monitor on?

All with the lights on and in the front of the house, too. You would think someone would have seen something, people come and go to work at all hours of the day and night. Cars go by, and yet someone was bold enough to turn all the lights on and grab a baby?

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 12:04 AM
Well shoot! What happened to that 'new' lead in Kansas?
I'm still trundling along, trying to find something/anything!

iamnotagolem
10-10-2011, 12:04 AM
My personal opinion is this was not a stranger abduction and the parents weren't involved. I think there are too many facts that point against both of those theories. I also think that the person who kidnapped her probably was very familiar w/the house and family, probably already had a carseat for her in his or her vehicle. This person is familiar enough with the family and knows mom is a deep sleeper.

RANCH
10-10-2011, 12:06 AM
Go here and the links will work. I just copy and pasted Ranch.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150977&highlight=lisa+irwin+timeline

Timeline needs some work grandmaj. The news report that is linked is about the cell phones and then says "someone at the command post saw the couple talking to LE and then leave in a car". Not them speeding off in a police car to command center to find out about possible new lead.

gitana1
10-10-2011, 12:07 AM
Timeline is in my signature

Awesome, awesome timeline. Many thanks.


Sabrina Aisenberg? I may not have the last name spelled correctly...

That's the one. Family seemed kind of stiff and odd in interviews but i really think an intruder took the child.


In the recent case in Canada, which was one of the few stranger kidnappings from a home in recent years, LE had a ready-made suspect and sure enough...

This is a bold kidnapping, if it happened and was a stranger, and probably not a first crime. And probably someone who lives nearby would fit the "profile". Seems like any neighborhood "creeps" would have been brought to LE's attention by now, and they said they have looked at the RSO's. So if not a registered sex offender, what other crimes might proceed a "home invasion/kidnapping" I wonder? I think it would have to be someone with a criminal record. JMO

What bothers me about a possible intruder theory is that the dad said all the lights were on in the house. What kind of intruder wants to totally announce their presence by turning all the lights on? Unless it is a mentally ill, disorganized criminal type.


There were 3 children in the house. Why the baby? A sick baby who is going to be a handful between teething, a cold, needing more care than an older child like diapers, feedings, baths etc.

I'm having a really difficult time with this theory except for in two cases. Grudge, or some crazed woman who wanted a baby. But, I keep coming back to no one hearing a thing. That bugs me. Opening doors and closing doors, and window screens out and lights being turned on and phones disappearing out of the kitchen? Someone was moving around that house not just a minute or two with a grab and run ya know?

And no one heard a thing even with a baby monitor on?

What bothers me is why was the 6 year old in bed with her and not the baby? The sick baby? I can't imagine putting a sick baby to bed in another room. But that's just me. I'd want my baby close, where I could attend to her needs and make sure she's okay throughout the night.

BTW, anyone know whether the dad's 8 year old was there? And I saw a report that stated the dad got custody of the 8 year old and was ruthless about it, IIRC. Does the 8 year old visit his mother? Is he with neighbors or is he with his mom? If with neighbors, why not with his own mother? I'd like to know more about the custody situation and if there is any rage going on there.

gitana1
10-10-2011, 12:09 AM
BTW, I see we have lots of guests right now. Join up. We value everyone's opinion, it's easy to join and we don't bite, at least not often! :)

twall
10-10-2011, 12:09 AM
IIRC, years go there was case of an open garage door kidnapping (in FLA???)
baby (about Lisa's age) never found, parents home bugged by LE but was that ever solved?
Mom babysat other kids.

yes, FLA, Sabrina Aisenberg and sadly she has never been found or the case solved. She was 5 mos. old.

yllek
10-10-2011, 12:09 AM
Sabrina Aisenberg? I may not have the last name spelled correctly...

This Baby Sabrina case was never solved. I have no idea whether the parents had anything to do with it or not, but the similarities to Lisa's case are uncanny. I think about little Sabrina a lot as we discuss Lisa's story.

- baby taken from crib
- two older siblings and parents in the home
- door left unlocked
- dog did not bark
- parents stopped cooperating after day 3 - hired attorney; mom told she failed poly

I'm very glad Lisa's parents are reportedly cooperating again. I don't blame them if they have an attorney to help in this cooperation (rather than act as roadblock). Imo, it's the cases where parents stop cooperating altogether that have the least chance of getting solved.

Note: The Aisenbergs say they stopped cooperating on advice of their attorney because they were being railroaded. They were eventually wire tapped and LE had a bunch of incriminating statements indicating the parents were guilty, but the audio was so bad it was laughable. I disregard the wire taps. The parents were indicted and took the 5th, which certainly didn't help them in the court of public opinion. The LE and prosecution took some hits for the wire tapping debacle, but the parents were never officially cleared, AFAIK. Still no Sabrina.

EllaMae
10-10-2011, 12:10 AM
There were 3 children in the house. Why the baby? A sick baby who is going to be a handful between teething, a cold, needing more care than an older child like diapers, feedings, baths etc.

I'm having a really difficult time with this theory except for in two cases. Grudge, or some crazed woman who wanted a baby. But, I keep coming back to no one hearing a thing. That bugs me. Opening doors and closing doors, and window screens out and lights being turned on and phones disappearing out of the kitchen? Someone was moving around that house not just a minute or two with a grab and run ya know?

And no one heard a thing even with a baby monitor on?

The perp probably didn't know the baby had a cold....and wouldn't care anyway.

As for the monitor....over time you learn to tune out just about everything but crying or something that sounds like a baby throwing up. If there were rustling noises...a parent might assume it was just an older baby moving around in her sleep. The noises change as the baby grows, and you just aren't as concerned with some noises that a 10 month old makes versus what a newborn does. You can tune it out and continue to sleep because it's not a noise that would be alarming from an older baby. You expect the baby to move around some at night. I can see where Debbie might sleep through those kinds of sounds.

secretagent
10-10-2011, 12:10 AM
There were 3 children in the house. Why the baby? A sick baby who is going to be a handful between teething, a cold, needing more care than an older child like diapers, feedings, baths etc.

I'm having a really difficult time with this theory except for in two cases. Grudge, or some crazed woman who wanted a baby. But, I keep coming back to no one hearing a thing. That bugs me. Opening doors and closing doors, and window screens out and lights being turned on and phones disappearing out of the kitchen? Someone was moving around that house not just a minute or two with a grab and run ya know?

And no one heard a thing even with a baby monitor on?

3 Children but the only girl ;/

grandmaj
10-10-2011, 12:12 AM
Timeline needs some work grandmaj. The news report that is linked is about the cell phones and then says "someone at the command post saw the couple talking to LE and then leave in a car". Not them speeding off in a police car to command center to find out about possible new lead.

Yes the news stations do change their links sometimes. Sorry.

MaciBean
10-10-2011, 12:13 AM
I had been offline for 30 hours and just thought I'd check in tonight for an update. I spent my entire evening "catching up." Praying for Lisa and that I'll be able to catch up, again, tomorrow morning. lol

Jaxson
10-10-2011, 12:14 AM
3 Children but the only girl ;/


and the only one young enough to not know she was stolen...

passionflower
10-10-2011, 12:14 AM
Do we know if there was any discord in the relationship of the parents?
could they of had a fight after the party (2 days before) and baby Lisa got accidently hurt and they were to afraid to call 911 and she died?
so they told grandpa she was sick and made up all of this?

grandmaj
10-10-2011, 12:15 AM
OK I was just at that update FB. What a mess. They are fighting and calling each other out and unfounded rumors have come from there in the past. So for now let's wait to see what the news reports on the teen. We have to be careful about sleuthing minors.

EllaMae
10-10-2011, 12:15 AM
This Baby Sabrina case was never solved. I have no idea whether the parents had anything to do with it or not, but the similarities to Lisa's case are uncanny. I think about little Sabrina a lot as we discuss Lisa's story.

- baby taken from crib
- two older siblings and parents in the home
- door left unlocked
- dog did not bark
- parents stopped cooperating after day 3 - hired attorney; mom told she failed poly

I'm very glad Lisa's parents are reportedly cooperating again. I don't blame them if they have an attorney to help in this cooperation (rather than act as roadblock). Imo, it's the cases where parents stop cooperating altogether that have the least chance of getting solved.

Note: The Aisenbergs say they stopped cooperating on advice of their attorney because they were being railroaded. They were wire tapped and LE had a bunch of incriminating statements indicating the parents were guilty, but the audio was so bad it was laughable. I disregard the wire taps. The parents were indicted and took the 5th, which certainly didn't help them in the court of public opinion. The LE and prosecution took some hits for the wire tapping debacle, but the parents were never officially cleared, AFAIK. Still no Sabrina.


IIRC...one of LE's biggest pieces of incriminating evidence was that the house was very messy. But Mrs. Aisenberg's friends told LE that she was just that way. She didn't worry about her house, and that was nothing new. She wasn't a good housekeeper way before she had Baby Sabrina.

grandmaj
10-10-2011, 12:16 AM
3 Children but the only girl ;/

True but the only one who is the bio child of both these parents also.

gliving
10-10-2011, 12:17 AM
BTW, anyone know whether the dad's 8 year old was there? And I saw a report that stated the dad got custody of the 8 year old and was ruthless about it, IIRC. Does the 8 year old visit his mother? Is he with neighbors or is he with his mom? If with neighbors, why not with his own mother? I'd like to know more about the custody situation and if there is any rage going on there.

SBM, yes the dad's son was there. He has custody but the rage thing is overstated. He gained custody by default, because the son's mother didn't pursue it. I not sure if the mother visits, from what I've read here, she's unavailable at this time. HTH's

EllaMae
10-10-2011, 12:19 AM
Do we know if there was any discord in the relationship of the parents?
could they of had a fight after the party (2 days before) and baby Lisa got accidently hurt and they were to afraid to call 911 and she died?
so they told grandpa she was sick and made up all of this?

Lisa's grandfather knew she had a cold. He said she was a little fussy that day. He was there at the party with her.

mrsu
10-10-2011, 12:20 AM
OK I was just at that update FB. What a mess. They are fighting and calling each other out and unfounded rumors have come from there in the past. So for now let's wait to see what the news reports on the teen. We have to be careful about sleuthing minors.

grandma...am I allowed to ask if there are any verified locals here who can confirm if the teen questioned was a male or female?

I realize there is bickering on the page. I've been wading through that crap and only trying to read the credible information. FWIW, the person who has posted said she lived on the street. :innocent:

grandmaj
10-10-2011, 12:21 AM
That window bothers me. What if the window screen was not pushed in but pulled in from someone standing in that room?? And baby Lisa was handed out through the window? She would fit through a bent in screen where as an adult would not fit through that area without actually removing the screen right?

If this is the case there are 2 people involved though. :eek:

yllek
10-10-2011, 12:21 AM
IIRC...one of LE's biggest pieces of incriminating evidence was that the house was very messy. But Mrs. Aisenberg's friends told LE that she was just that way. She didn't worry about her house, and that was nothing new. She wasn't a good housekeeper way before she had Baby Sabrina.

I rememer that Ella. You're right. Also, there was a lot of concern about the alarm not being set that night, but the Aisenbergs insisted that the alarm came with the house and they had never used it.

I'm on the fence about the Aisenberg case but always hope that Sabrina is alive and well-cared for, somewhere...

Miziree
10-10-2011, 12:22 AM
Maybe the person was already in the house hiding out and heard when mom started snoring? I have seen my husband wake up from a dead sleep to a noise but sleep through all other types stuff. Either way it would be easy to climb into window IMO. They might replace the screen to not alert neighbors?

It would make since if you were watching a place to wait a few hours after all the lights were out to be sure they were in deep sleep. Maybe in woods or even someone visiting or living close by who would not look out of the norm...

I've said it before in this thread but there was a show called "It takes a thief" He could enter a house and rob it in 15 minutes. Made me see how easy someone could get in and out http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/ittakesathief/about/about.html

If this person is someone who has been in the house before it would only take minutes to climb in window, grab baby Lisa, Go through kitchen turning on light to see (or was on from kids like posted before) grabbed phones (possibly to throw of direction) and left out front door.

I'm still seeing the parents as victims then suspects but that is just me.

All In My Own Opinion!!!

Ada
10-10-2011, 12:22 AM
IIRC...one of LE's biggest pieces of incriminating evidence was that the house was very messy. But Mrs. Aisenberg's friends told LE that she was just that way. She didn't worry about her house, and that was nothing new. She wasn't a good housekeeper way before she had Baby Sabrina.

Messy house equals child killer? Oh man, am I in trouble!

Celeste
10-10-2011, 12:22 AM
Do we know if there was any discord in the relationship of the parents?
could they of had a fight after the party (2 days before) and baby Lisa got accidently hurt and they were to afraid to call 911 and she died?
so they told grandpa she was sick and made up all of this?

It's possible. Parties/family events tend to be stressful, especially when you have small children.

grandmaj
10-10-2011, 12:22 AM
If a verified local knows from a credible source they can say male or female yes. But we can't sleuth the person other than what is in the news.

Irish_Eyes
10-10-2011, 12:27 AM
Awesome, awesome timeline. Many thanks.


1) What bothers me is why was the 6 year old in bed with her and not the baby? The sick baby? I can't imagine putting a sick baby to bed in another room. But that's just me. I'd want my baby close, where I could attend to her needs and make sure she's okay throughout the night.

2) BTW, anyone know whether the dad's 8 year old was there? And I saw a report that stated the dad got custody of the 8 year old and was ruthless about it, IIRC. Does the 8 year old visit his mother? Is he with neighbors or is he with his mom? If with neighbors, why not with his own mother? I'd like to know more about the custody situation and if there is any rage going on there.

(snipped, numbered, and bolded by me)

1) I never saw the need to have my daughter in bed with me for just a simple cold. I keep her monitor on and check on her a bazillion times, but she's comfortable in her own bed, and I'd be worried she'd climb or fall out of my bed. That, and my husband snores something awful sometimes. If she was miserable I guess that would be different, but she's really never been sicker than a mild cold, knock on wood. On the other hand, when my son was six, sometimes he would wake up in the night and come crawl into my bed if he got scared or had a bad dream....sometimes I didn't even know he was there until I woke up in the morning.

2) Re: the bold above, I posted something similar earlier. It's the one thing about this case that I'm kind of hung up on.....

nurselady
10-10-2011, 12:28 AM
grandmaj,every time I see your Avatar,it appears to be dancing faster,and faster..This thread has been moving so fast,don't have a clue how y'all are keeping up!!!

EllaMae
10-10-2011, 12:29 AM
Goodnight everyone. I have to try and get some sleep now.

But to tell you the truth....all this talk about intruders roaming around in the night has me completely creeped out. I'll probably wake up to the slightest noise now.



Please let Baby Lisa come home tomorrow!!!

SuziQ
10-10-2011, 12:30 AM
That window bothers me. What if the window screen was not pushed in but pulled in from someone standing in that room?? And baby Lisa was handed out through the window? She would fit through a bent in screen where as an adult would not fit through that area without actually removing the screen right?

If this is the case there are 2 people involved though. :eek:

Wouldn't it make more sense that the exit was made through the front door?

Dr.Fessel
10-10-2011, 12:32 AM
Messy house equals child killer? Oh man, am I in trouble!

My youngest daughter is in so much trouble then. I was over watching her kids for a few minutes today and pointing out the chips on the floor to the dog to eat. LOL LOL LOL

twall
10-10-2011, 12:33 AM
I didn't follow this case the first 2 days so I want to ask if there were any reports of LE doing the through the window experiment before today? If not, what took so long? Were they focusing on mom too much and ignoring the intruder angle? I noticed in the early photos there are blue bins (recycling?) next to the front porch and now they are gone. They would make a great step for climbing in a window. I made DH watch the window video and told him "this is why you need to lock the window when you close it, not just close it!" (he has a bad habit of that) I am a stickler about closing the windows and securing them at night. Our home does not have adequate shade so when the sun goes down and it is cool outside our house is still very warm but I would rather shut the windows and pay for the a/c to run than have someone come in my home and have something awful happen. We live a few miles from a state park that has a small male correctional facility within it and low security. Inmates have walked away before. Non-violent offenders but ya never know!

Miziree
10-10-2011, 12:33 AM
That window bothers me. What if the window screen was not pushed in but pulled in from someone standing in that room?? And baby Lisa was handed out through the window? She would fit through a bent in screen where as an adult would not fit through that area without actually removing the screen right?

If this is the case there are 2 people involved though. :eek:

I wonder if a small woman could have passed through that screen...I also would LOVE to hear the 911 calls that was made...

yllek
10-10-2011, 12:36 AM
:countsheep:

Hoping tomorrow is the day that Lisa is found...

sunflowerchick
10-10-2011, 12:36 AM
So I assume nothing new? Just checking in before bed... I keep hoping to come and find that she has been found. I'm still on the fence but as time goes by, I just don't know.

katydid23
10-10-2011, 12:37 AM
True but the only one who is the bio child of both these parents also.

I am not sure if an intruder could successfully take the 8 yr old boy w/out being discovered. He would have put up a noisy fight. imo

grandmaj
10-10-2011, 12:37 AM
grandmaj,every time I see your Avatar,it appears to be dancing faster,and faster..This thread has been moving so fast,don't have a clue how y'all are keeping up!!!

:floorlaugh: You are too funny.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 12:37 AM
I didn't follow this case the first 2 days so I want to ask if there were any reports of LE doing the through the window experiment before today? If not, what took so long? Were they focusing on mom too much and ignoring the intruder angle? I noticed in the early photos there are blue bins (recycling?) next to the front porch and now they are gone. They would make a great step for climbing in a window. I made DH watch the window video and told him "this is why you need to lock the window when you close it, not just close it!" (he has a bad habit of that) I am a stickler about closing the windows and securing them at night. Our home does not have adequate shade so when the sun goes down and it is cool outside our house is still very warm but I would rather shut the windows and pay for the a/c to run than have someone come in my home and have something awful happen. We live a few miles from a state park that has a small male correctional facility within it and low security. Inmates have walked away before. Non-violent offenders but ya never know!
They were certainly making a show of it today, perhaps in case in a jury trial the defense suggests his or her client was focused on at the expense of other possible suspects. I think it was a CYA exercise in front of cameras, basically.

RANCH
10-10-2011, 12:38 AM
Wouldn't it make more sense that the exit was made through the front door?

Is there a floor-plan of the house available? I thought I may have seen one a few days ago but have no idea were to find it.

twall
10-10-2011, 12:38 AM
Messy house equals child killer? Oh man, am I in trouble!

Me too...an intruder wouldn't want to come in here, if he/she doesn't trip and fall and break their leg in the dark on a toy left on the floor they will trip on our black friendly cat who is always underfoot!

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 12:38 AM
So I assume nothing new? Just checking in before bed... I keep hoping to come and find that she has been found. I'm still on the fence but as time goes by, I just don't know.
Nope, not a thing. (Sigh.)

HatesSociopaths
10-10-2011, 12:39 AM
There is something else that I was thinking of that makes the intruder perp story less plausible to me. DB says she closes all the doors, even the bedroom doors, at night. So the perp comes in, and selects the right door to kidnap Lisa. He/she doesn't accidentally open the wrong doors, or if he/she does it wakes no one?


If the kidnapper was not a stranger, then he/she would know where the baby's room was, so no guessing would be necessary.

Most excellent observations - I think this was very Sherlock Holmes like Tuffy.

As EllaMae points out, the "kidnapper" IS NOT A STRANGER.

There is simply no way that a stranger could have selected the right room, selected the perfect night to do this, etc.

That eliminates 6 billion people.

It leaves about 12.

ALL have been cleared.

Except the mother.

DairyGirl
10-10-2011, 12:40 AM
My youngest daughter is in so much trouble then. I was over watching her kids for a few minutes today and pointing out the chips on the floor to the dog to eat. LOL LOL LOL

I never have to swept my floor. It's in the dog's mouth before it can hit the floor.

Ruby Slippers
10-10-2011, 12:40 AM
MHA if this has been explored in earlier thread but has anyone read and discussed:
Headline: Cop Shop: Relatives pray for missing Missouri girl--delcotimes.com

Quote from Article: "Deborah Netz Bradley, the mother of baby Lisa, is a second cousin to Donna Pretti, an investigator for the Delaware County Medical Examiner’s office, and Eddystone Patrolman Joseph Pretti. Donna and Joe are first cousins."

I'm guessing: The parents have some pretty relevant and knowledgeable advice-leading on how to deal with LE. And media?

http://delcotimes.com/articles/2011/10/06/news/doc4e8d126a97a3c717320879.txt

grandmaj
10-10-2011, 12:40 AM
I didn't follow this case the first 2 days so I want to ask if there were any reports of LE doing the through the window experiment before today? If not, what took so long? Were they focusing on mom too much and ignoring the intruder angle? I noticed in the early photos there are blue bins (recycling?) next to the front porch and now they are gone. They would make a great step for climbing in a window. I made DH watch the window video and told him "this is why you need to lock the window when you close it, not just close it!" (he has a bad habit of that) I am a stickler about closing the windows and securing them at night. Our home does not have adequate shade so when the sun goes down and it is cool outside our house is still very warm but I would rather shut the windows and pay for the a/c to run than have someone come in my home and have something awful happen. We live a few miles from a state park that has a small male correctional facility within it and low security. Inmates have walked away before. Non-violent offenders but ya never know!

Not that I've read. I'm not sure maybe they were trying to rule in the window or rule it out. Theorize about possibility or not?

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 12:40 AM
Most excellent observations - I think this was very Sherlock Holmes like Tuffy.

As EllaMae points out, the "kidnapper" IS NOT A STRANGER.

There is simply no way that a stranger could have selected the right room, selected the perfect night to do this, etc.

That eliminates 6 billion people.

It leaves about 12.

ALL have been cleared.

Except the mother.
I personally think that some of those six billion are probably still in play.

And neither the mother nor father has even been named a person of interest, let alone a suspect.

But we know that the former undoubtedly is, at least unofficially, to LE.

cleo612
10-10-2011, 12:41 AM
My granddaughter has stayed with me 3-4 nights a week since she was born (and is with me 6-7 days a week besides). She is just over 3 years old. When she is sick with a cold or other bug, she wants to lay in my bed with me for a few minutes of comfort, but then she wants to go back to her bed. Sometimes when she is having trouble breathing, we will sit in the rocking chair and she will doze with her head on my chest, but then she awakens and wants to sleep in her own bed. Only when she was a newborn did she ever sleep a full night in my bed with me. Once she realized that she had a bed of her own, she wanted to sleep in it, even when I preferred that she sleep with me. She has never been one to fall asleep on the floor while playing, or while watching a movie--she has always let me know that she is sleepy and ready for "nappies."

She also wakes up if someone puts a key in the door lock, or touches the end of her bed--none of that "dead to the world" deep sleeping for her. She wakes up if a fly changes direction in mid-air! I have never seen anything like it--her daddy slept through diaper changes and even through middle of the night (necessity) baths!

And on that train of thought--I sleep like the dead. I have slept through hurricanes, earthquakes, and even being carried by a fireman out of my burning bed and being set into the snow as an adult.

When I still had my granddaughter sleeping in my room with me, I woke up whenever she turned over or stretched her legs. Now that she is in her own room, I can hear her if she clears her throat or starts whimpering in her sleep.

Dr.Fessel
10-10-2011, 12:43 AM
A while back I was watching a crime show and I can't remember exactly what the story was about but the police were calling BS on this guy who said he crawled in this window. There was a table and knick knack stand right by it and blocking a big part of the window. They filmed him crawling in it again and he did it without knocking anything over or off. It looked like he just had about a 12 inch by 12 inch area to do it. Everyone's eyes bugged out when he did.

jjenny
10-10-2011, 12:46 AM
Not that I've read. I'm not sure maybe they were trying to rule in the window or rule it out. Theorize about possibility or not?

The policeman was able to get in through that window, so it's clearly possible.
Although of course when the policeman got in, the screen was not in it.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 12:46 AM
Grrrrr....can find nothing new on KCTV5, the station in one of BeanE's posts which tweeted they'd have a story from Wyandotte County KS tonight. Still looking though.

http://www.kctv5.com/

Irish_Eyes
10-10-2011, 12:46 AM
A good, quick summary of the Aisenberg case for anyone interested...

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/in-aisenberg-case-theres-no-evading-mystery-suspicion/753814

RANCH
10-10-2011, 12:48 AM
Most excellent observations - I think this was very Sherlock Holmes like Tuffy.

As EllaMae points out, the "kidnapper" IS NOT A STRANGER.

There is simply no way that a stranger could have selected the right room, selected the perfect night to do this, etc.

That eliminates 6 billion people.

It leaves about 12.

ALL have been cleared.

Except the mother.
It happened to Polly Klass. Stranger abductions do take place.

Irish_Eyes
10-10-2011, 12:49 AM
Grrrrr....can find nothing new on KCTV5, the station in one of BeanE's posts which tweeted they'd have a story from Wyandotte County KS tonight. Still looking though.

http://www.kctv5.com/

Wondering if the tag line for that promo was a little sensationalistic....I believe the race today where the flyers were being passed out is in Wyandotte County? I think that may be what they are referring to?

TorisMom003
10-10-2011, 12:49 AM
I see nothing odd about closing the bedroom doors when sleeping. That is something that we do. The girls go to bed and I don't want to keep them awake because of the tv so we shut their door. I usually sleep a little later than they do so I shut my door so that they won't wake me up, especially when one or both of them will get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom.

About an intruder breaking into the house when people are asleep and mom not hearing anything or the boys not waking up, I can see that as entirely possible as well. During the spring and fall we usually have our windows open at night to allow the cool air in. We live on a hill so the back of our house is 2 1/2 stories up off the ground. One night someone apparently used a knife and slit open our bedroom window. I never heard a thing and neither one of our dogs alerted me to what was going on. We discovered it the next day and looked outside to see how it was done. They had placed a plastic lawn chair under our window to stand on. Apparently they either heard me making noise and got scared off or they simply couldn't reach high enough to climb in.

I remember during the first few media interviews of women such as Susan Smith, Billie Dunn, Cindy Anthony, etc I always had a gut feeling that they were not being honest and had something to do with the missing persons disappearance. With this case I have not had that feeling, not with the mom anyway. I have however sensed that something is not right with dad. During their Today Show interview on Friday I noticed something that bothered me. When mom was getting upset, talking and crying harder, dad put his hand on her leg/knee and squeezed it. It reminded me of Cindy Anthony doing the same thing to George when she was wanting him to shut up about something.

I hope and pray that Lisa is found safe soon.

vlpate
10-10-2011, 12:52 AM
Tough to do - hundreds and hundreds in the KC metro area of about two million people.

Yabut, not that many stores open at 3 am. Walmart is usually open, but then he would likely be seen as unusal carrying a baby around at that time.

I think cities should get rid of the red light cameras and put them on every street corner for surveillance.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 12:52 AM
EricKCTV5 Eric Chaloux
KCPD went to WYCO to investigate lead in #LisaIrwin case. We will show you where and why when the news starts at 1030 on KCTV5 News.
24 seconds ago
Here's BeanE's original post.

Hmmm....don't think passing out stuff at NASCAR event is "a lead," but if that's what they're referring to, they perhaps did overhype it just a bit, lol. Not sure if race was in Wyandotte Co or Johnson Co though, both on KS side, so there's that.

grandmaj
10-10-2011, 12:53 AM
OK so Mom remembered during the Judge P show or at least the first time we heard this was that she was using the computer and forgot to shut the window? Do I have that right?

And mom remembers that she closed all the bedroom doors but she forgot to lock the front door?

And all of the lights were on but she had shut them off right?

And the dog didn't bark or she didn't hear it, the baby monitor was on but she didn't hear anything?

She didn't hear her husband entering when he got home from work? That would be another door opening and closing. Until he woke her?

Even with him trying to shut the window with the broken screen which he said he couldn't shut. That had to make some noise. Then he opened the doors to the boys room and then baby Lisa? And she still didn't hear anything?

I want to know if Mom took some medication or if she took a sleep aid because she seemed to not secure that house before going to bed, and seemed to sleep through intruders and her husband moving through that house undetected. Scary that multiple people were moving about that house and she didn't hear them. She didn't hear his vehicle either when he got home?

I don't know guys. That is allot of not hearing.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 12:55 AM
Yabut, not that many stores open at 3 am. Walmart is usually open, but then he would likely be seen as unusal carrying a baby around at that time.

I think cities should get rid of the red light cameras and put them on every street corner for surveillance.
That's be a way to reduce it, true, but still - that's still many hours an already worn-out and tired LE would have to spend, betting on an off-chance.

grandmaj
10-10-2011, 12:55 AM
The policeman was able to get in through that window, so it's clearly possible.
Although of course when the policeman got in, the screen was not in it.

Right and the only way he got in unaided was going head first which would have him landing 3 feet down probably having to balance on his hands until his knees hit the floor. The other times he was aided by standing on something or being helped in.

But the screen was totally out too. And he was rather tall.

HatesSociopaths
10-10-2011, 12:56 AM
I personally think that some of those six billion are probably still in play.

And neither the mother nor father has even been named a person of interest, let alone a suspect.

But we know that the former undoubtedly is, at least unofficially, to LE.

How did the perp know which bedroom the baby was in? All the doors were closed.

Dr.Fessel
10-10-2011, 12:57 AM
OK so Mom remembered during the Judge P show or at least the first time we heard this was that she was using the computer and forgot to shut the window? Do I have that right?

And mom remembers that she closed all the bedroom doors but she forgot to lock the front door?

And all of the lights were on but she had shut them off right?

And the dog didn't bark or she didn't hear it, the baby monitor was on but she didn't hear anything?

She didn't hear her husband entering when he got home from work? That would be another door opening and closing. Until he woke her?

Even with him trying to shut the window with the broken screen which he said he couldn't shut. That had to make some noise. Then he opened the doors to the boys room and then baby Lisa? And she still didn't hear anything?

I want to know if Mom took some medication or if she took a sleep aid because she seemed to not secure that house before going to bed, and seemed to sleep through intruders and her husband moving through that house undetected. Scary that multiple people were moving about that house and she didn't hear them. She didn't hear his vehicle either when he got home?

I don't know guys. That is allot of not hearing.

1st BBM

The last statement I heard from the mom was she did not know if she forgot to lock the door.

2nd BBM I don't think we have ever heard the mom say she shut the lights off or have heard anyone say she shut them off.

grandmaj
10-10-2011, 12:58 AM
Here's BeanE's original post.

Hmmm....don't think passing out stuff at NASCAR event is "a lead," but if that's what they're referring to, they perhaps did overhype it just a bit, lol. Not sure if race was in Wyandotte Co or Johnson Co though, both on KS side, so there's that.

Their headlines have been totally over hyped in many cases.

grandmaj
10-10-2011, 12:59 AM
OK on the lights I could swear that it was reported that the lights were off. Let me see if I can find it.

yllek
10-10-2011, 12:59 AM
Most excellent observations - I think this was very Sherlock Holmes like Tuffy.

As EllaMae points out, the "kidnapper" IS NOT A STRANGER.

There is simply no way that a stranger could have selected the right room, selected the perfect night to do this, etc.

That eliminates 6 billion people.

It leaves about 12.

ALL have been cleared.

Except the mother.

I think it's only Jeremy Irwin who stated that all have been cleared. LE hasn't said so. Maybe LE told Jeremy that they had been as a tactic, or maybe not. But, til we hear it from LE, I'm not considering Mr. Irwin's contention that he has been cleared and "all of those we were worried about have been cleared, except the mother" as a fact.

wfgodot
10-10-2011, 01:01 AM
Their headlines have been totally over hyped in many cases.
That's for sure! They love those ratings. Still - pretty brazen to hype a non-existent story, if that's the case. Maybe they're just hanging on to it till it's next broadcast tomorrow, maybe morning - some stations do that kind of thing, withhold their online product for a time. Wish we had some locals here who saw tonight's news, though!

TorisMom003
10-10-2011, 01:02 AM
Do we know if their dog would normally bark at people that he/she didn't know? Would he/she bark at people going down the road? Years ago I had a female black lab that I had raised since a pup. I never heard her bark. We had someone break into our shed, right next to her kennel, and stole some bikes....she never barked at them. She didn't bark until she was pregnant and then barked at a stranger. It was really odd to hear her bark for the first time.

Dr.Fessel
10-10-2011, 01:02 AM
OK on the lights I could swear that it was reported that the lights were off. Let me see if I can find it. TY grandmaj, I looked earlier and asked earlier. I could not find it.

liz b.
10-10-2011, 01:02 AM
OK on the lights I could swear that it was reported that the lights were off. Let me see if I can find it.

I read that Jeremy shut the lights off when he got home...I do not remember That Deb ever said she shut the lights off...Jeremy said it was usual for Deb to leave some lights on in the house during the night.... He said that in that interview last night... MOO