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View Full Version : Conrad Murray Trial - Day Ten


Talina
10-11-2011, 11:21 AM
Soulmagent as been studious in starting these threads for prior trial days and I don't see one started yet for today. The trial is set to resume in 20 minutes so I thought in Soulmagent's absence this morning, I'd go ahead and copy links over from prior threads and get today started.



TMZ
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13173871051031


My Fox

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...p_131738713427


NewStar

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13173871808373

click2Hoston

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...173871975894ng

CNN

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13173872142345


Majicatl

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13173872342816


Amity's links

LA LOCAL TIMES.

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13179300346441

Upstream

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13179301284242

ABC local channel 7

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13179301490783

Talina
10-11-2011, 11:46 AM
Per InSessions we are just waiting on jury to enter the court room to get started today.

Talina
10-11-2011, 11:47 AM
Here we go. Detective Scott Smith on witness stand.

Soulmagent
10-11-2011, 11:48 AM
:great:Thank you! I had an appointment this morning and was rushing back to make it in time!

I am so relieved!!

Thundar
10-11-2011, 11:48 AM
On CNN/live it is starting. There is audio now. Getting ready to start the interview tape again.

borndem
10-11-2011, 11:49 AM
Hmmmm, on the drinking the Propofol ala CM:

Maybe the DA's can ask CM for a demo to show us how quickly the drug works when taken orally....

Good Idea??
--------------------------------------------

And we're off - Court is now in session....

Talina
10-11-2011, 11:49 AM
Beginning resumption of the taped interview with Dr.Murray and detectives. Starting on page 86 around line 13 of the transcript (if I caught that right).

peace9274
10-11-2011, 11:50 AM
:great:Thank you! I had an appointment this morning and was rushing back to make it in time!

I am so relieved!!

I have appointments to have a mammeo & a bone-density test in 30 minutes.

I will rush home afterwards!!!

Thundar
10-11-2011, 11:53 AM
I heard something about talking to MJs mother and she has a heart condition so he must be careful with information to her. Then the machines started up in the shop here and I can't hear a thing. Please someone report what is being said, cause I can't stop the machines unless I don't want to eat this month.

Talina
10-11-2011, 11:53 AM
What's with referring to Michael Amir as "Brother" Amir??

Thundar
10-11-2011, 11:56 AM
Well I heard a few sentences. Is Murray talking about conforting the children? I thought either the security guard or personal assistant saw him leave the hospital soon after MJ was declared dead. They didn't say anything about Murray even talking to the family did they?

Talina
10-11-2011, 11:57 AM
I heard something about talking to MJs mother and she has a heart condition so he must be careful with information to her. Then the machines started up in the shop here and I can't hear a thing. Please someone report what is being said, cause I can't stop the machines unless I don't want to eat this month.

He said that the ER doctor came in and told Mrs. Jackson that her son had been brought in having difficulties breathing and that she said to the dr. "how is he? he's not dead is he?" and the dr said yes.

Mrs. Jackson then broke down crying and after a bit the ER dr left and Dr. Murray stayed there. He asked for social workers to come in and then he started asking where the children were.

He went and found the children and told then with social workers. He then went on about how the children broke down crying (intermixing in this how they told him they knew he'd done what he could and how good of a dr he is (oh please))

Now he's talking making arrangements for the kids to see their dad at the hospital and the hospital preparing them for a viewing so they could get closure. He's going on about that now.

He asked that MJ be as presentable as possible for the kids, because had had requested an autopsy be performed (not sure why he threw that in) and he's now going on about them preparing him for viewing.

Talina
10-11-2011, 11:58 AM
He's sure talking a lot and really bolstering himself about talking to the family afterwards and that since he couldn't give them any cause of death that he had insisted on an autopsy.

Now he's talking about the body being ready for viewing and that he went into the viewing area with the children and the family.

Talina
10-11-2011, 11:59 AM
He then went and found Mrs. Jackson and asked her if she had a desire to see MJ and she said no.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 12:00 PM
He says that a security guard told him no one could go into the home. He asked because the mother wanted to go there. I call BS on that one.

He makes it sound like he was at the hospital for quite a while.

Talina
10-11-2011, 12:02 PM
Now he's talking about being told by security that the house was on lock down and so he started getting concerned about where the children were going to go.

Now, it is just me or does anyone else think that with all the family there, particularly Mrs. Jackson, that where the children went was any concern of his?

Oh, now he is being told by security that due to the press they might have to be air lifted out.

Oh...there is a press release being prepared at the hospital and Jermaine asked Dr. Murray to review it before they released. Now, he's adding something to the press release and the Jackson's/AEG's lawyer that was preparing the release. Something about cause of death being unknown until autopsy.

peace9274
10-11-2011, 12:02 PM
"......
they told him they knew he'd done what he could and how good of a dr he is (oh please))

He asked that MJ be as presentable as possible for the kids, because had had requested an autopsy be performed (not sure why he threw that in) and he's now going on about them preparing him for viewing.

Snipped & Bolded By Me


"Oh Please"... is right!

He's throwing everything in to show what a fantastic doctor he is!
(rolls eyes)

Talina
10-11-2011, 12:04 PM
Now, he's saying that you wouldn't believe how upsetting it is to see all the media reports later and how wrong all the reports are in the medial. They said he ran away and that was just not true. He was in the truck (i guess he means ambulance) trying to help MJ.

Now detectives asking him why he was unavailable to their calls for 2 days.

His atty is saying that it was his advice to Dr.Murray to leave his phone off until he could handle a different matter and then afterwards deal with this with Dr. Murray. (atty falling on the sword for him there)

Talina
10-11-2011, 12:06 PM
Rehashing now all the various areas of medical conditions he has treated MJ for since first meeting him.

Talking about the first thing he treated him for URI. Said few seconds before this that MJ never ate and drank properly and had told him that his mother always had to force him to eat. (wonder what Mrs. Jackson would say to that)

Thundar
10-11-2011, 12:06 PM
Now, he's saying that you wouldn't believe how upsetting it is to see all the media reports later and how wrong all the reports are in the medial. They said he ran away and that was just not true. He was in the truck (i guess he means ambulance) trying to help MJ.

Now detectives asking him why he was unavailable to their calls for 2 days.

His atty is saying that it was his advice to Dr.Murray to leave his phone off until he could handle a different matter and then afterwards deal with this with Dr. Murray. (atty falling on the sword for him there)

Thank you for writing this out. I am only hearing bits and pieces and this really helps put it together.

Man Murray just is going on and on again. Worrying about everyone else. The picture in the courtroom is at the defense table. The dark haired older defense attorney is so fidgety it makes me nervous.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 12:09 PM
Murray did not know what other medications MJ was taking but he had heard that MJ was seeing Dr. Kline about three times a week.

Starting that bus back up and throwing people under it!

Talina
10-11-2011, 12:10 PM
Talking about treating him with Lamisil for feet/nails fungus.

Now back to June 2009 - saying that he didn't know any other medications MJ was on other than what he was prescribing. Saying that he heard through others about MJ seeing Dr. Klein. Talking about hearing MJ trying to get into see Dr. Klein and asking to be worked in around other patients. Dr. Murray says that he did not ask why he wanted to see him, wasn't his business and MJ does not disclose to him why he is seeing Dr. Klein.

Detectives going over diff meds asking if he prescribed or other drs.

Going too fast for me to keep up with and can't understand some of them.

Talina
10-11-2011, 12:13 PM
http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tmz_documents/1007_conrad_murray_transcript.pdf

This is the transcript

peace9274
10-11-2011, 12:15 PM
CM said "Surprise surprise"... bwahahahaha

(This was after LE told him the doc's name wasn't on the eye drops bottle)

Talina
10-11-2011, 12:23 PM
OMG - now saying that MJ could have been smoking cigarettes cause he always used excessive cologne and he always wondered how MJ could have used that much cologne.

Talina
10-11-2011, 12:27 PM
Murray saying he had 2 syringes. He would use them, draw saline to mix with the solution, then would recap. Kept all items in his bags cause MJ didn't want him laying anything around.

Detectives asking where are his bags. He said in that same closet where I always kept the. Directing them to top shelf. MJ showed him the cabinet and instructed that is where Dr. Murray was to keep his items put up.

(okay - what Dr. is going to leave all these prescription drugs in an uncontrolled setting like that with kids in the house)

Now asking for keys to his car so they can get into it. They don't want to break into his car so asking for key. He is sound very evasive or dumb -

Just asked if he ever gave MJ demerol he said no.

Conclusion of audio.

Talina
10-11-2011, 12:29 PM
Pro - asking detective if accurately reflects interview
Wit - yes
Pros prior to that interview, to your knowledge had the def admitted to law enforcement that he had administered propofol
wit - no he had not

(clarifying with other questions that at no other time prior to this interview had wit admitted to giving propofol)

Talina
10-11-2011, 12:32 PM
Detective telling Pros this was not an interrogation and going over how little they knew at this time so they just let Dr.Murray speak to whatever he wanted to speak to.

They have very little information at this time so really didn't have that many questions they could ask other than to question things he brings up in the interview.

Asking det if Dr.M seemed surprised that they did not have his medical bags. Det saying he seemed very surprised. Det describing a very surprised expression on his face - eyes got bigger, wider. Look of surprise.

2goaliemom
10-11-2011, 12:33 PM
lol just carrying this post over from the last thread--I really do appreciate everyone's hard work covering the trial.

Good morning everyone! I just wanted to thank all of you for the summaries of the last few days in court and the excellent commentary and analysis. I went back east for my son's wedding and I'm still catching up. Absolutely unbelievable number of inconsistencies in the good doc's statement to police and the witnesses' testimony. I can barely listen to the arrogance and narcissim streaming from his mouth!

Talina
10-11-2011, 12:37 PM
Pro showing business cards found in MJ's master bathroom on 6/26: Dr.Murry card with David Adams written on back with phone number and a business card of David J Adams (anesthesiologist from Las Vegas)

Pro asking about a derm cream that Det Martinez asked about at the end of the interview and eye medication - both found in MJ's master bathroom on 6/26. (not sure where he is going with this)

Pro showing detective some eye medication and having him identify it.
Pro showing detective Large plastic bag with benequin cream from Applied Pharmacy dated March 31, 2009. recovered 6/26 MJ master bathroom area.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 12:43 PM
Search warrant for Murray's appartment August 13, 2009. Got the address from Applied Pharmacy invoices that were gotten through another warrant.

Talina
10-11-2011, 12:43 PM
Pro now going into following 6/27/2009, going into search warrants executed on Mon 6/29 for Dr. M's car and Mj's home.

Recovered from car: contract (AEG contract) and couple of business cards. No medications found in the car

Next search warrant 7/22/2009: Acres Home Heart - Houston, TX (Dr. M office) - no propofol recovered in that search
Next search warrant : self storage unit under Dr. M name, no propofol found
Next search 7/28/2009: home and office of Dr. Murray and a storage unit - all in Las Vegas. No propofol found in any of those searches
Next search 8/11/2009: Applied Pharmacy Services - Las Vegas. Recovered invoices and pharmacy records for the shipments to Nicole Alvarez
Next search 8/13/2009 was Nicole's apt. No propofol recovered at that search.

Any medical records in any of these searches for treatment for MJ for May or June 2009

Det: no

Talina
10-11-2011, 12:44 PM
Going to get behind here...Hubby wants to pick now to chit chat.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 12:50 PM
The Prosecutor showed picture people's 203 from June 25, 2009 of Murray leaving the hospital; the picture shows 2:34 but I thought Prosecutor asked if it was 2:37. Not sure if that was the time on the tape the picture was taken from or the actual time.

Prosecutor also showed a colored picture of Murray arriving at the hospital People's 205.

Talina
10-11-2011, 12:52 PM
Well from what I gathered by bits and pieces all it sounds like Def is really trying to play down Dr.M being inaccessible for 2 days following the death.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 12:54 PM
Defense just asked if both of the housekeepers had been spoken to by police. So there were housekeepers.

Talina
10-11-2011, 12:55 PM
Now naming all people that were spoken to by the various detectives on 6/25 and 6/26. Not sure what he is getting here other than to try to dispute that detectives should have known more than he says on direct that they knew prior to meeting for the Dr. M interview. Asking detective if they made any limitations that could be talked about, det says no.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 01:00 PM
Defense covered witness's experience, and has now moved on to the notes taken during the investigation. Pointing out how careful the note taking was.

Defense asking if witness remembered Fleak's testimony and where witness was during the June 29th search. Asked if he was directing the photographer when Fleak was taking those things out of the bag? Witness said I might have been.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 01:02 PM
Witness never took notes while Fleak was taking them out of the bag. Notes only once things were out of the bag.

Photographer and witness may have walked into the room as Fleak was taking those things out of the bag. Defense is now showing witness something. Let me show you.

Gotta go to lunch. Be back later.

Talina
10-11-2011, 01:06 PM
Def pointing out that in det notes his notes never do mention that a propofol bottle was found in an IV bag.
Detective agrees

Def pointing out how specific det was in his notes but did not mention the bottle being in a bag.

Det agrees

Def saying that in detectives notes he says the bottle was in the bag with the empty saline bag but does not say the bottle was in the bag.
Det agrees

Def Bolstering that the bags were located exactly where Dr. Murray said they would be found.

Talina
10-11-2011, 01:11 PM
Def has now switched to 6/26 when the went back to the residence due to phone call from family of items found.

Def is asking who found the various medicine bottles in the master bath. Det does not know who found them.

Def asking where the business cards were found. Detective says Det Sanchez told him she found the cards in the vanity. Now Def is saying Det Sanchez found the bottles, Detective Smith saying that is not what he said. He does not know who found the bottles.

Def asking if Det Smith ever talked to David Adams
Smith: yes
(didn't ask any other questions about David Adams which I find odd)

Def has now moved on to talking to Alvarez
going over initial talk with Alvarez and what all he "didn't" say in the first conversation and then later said all this on 8/31 (not going to type that all out since we heard it all on their cross from defense)

Talina
10-11-2011, 01:13 PM
afk again....so not able to type any of the testimony

Amity
10-11-2011, 01:14 PM
He said that the ER doctor came in and told Mrs. Jackson that her son had been brought in having difficulties breathing and that she said to the dr. "how is he? he's not dead is he?" and the dr said yes.

Mrs. Jackson then broke down crying and after a bit the ER dr left and Dr. Murray stayed there. He asked for social workers to come in and then he started asking where the children were.

He went and found the children and told then with social workers. He then went on about how the children broke down crying (intermixing in this how they told him they knew he'd done what he could and how good of a dr he is (oh please))

Now he's talking making arrangements for the kids to see their dad at the hospital and the hospital preparing them for a viewing so they could get closure. He's going on about that now.

He asked that MJ be as presentable as possible for the kids, because had had requested an autopsy be performed (not sure why he threw that in) and he's now going on about them preparing him for viewing.

Running soooooo behind today. Had to take Dad for eye check at V.A. Hospital and it was packed and parking might as well have been 3 miles away.
Then visitors coming to see Mom and Dad today at noon and is it wrong of me to hope they leave by the time Court's Lunch is over? :innocent:

Talina, the part of the recording you have above is exactly what I had wanted to hear today but wasn't able to.
A HUGE THANK YOU for filling me in!!!

IMO; Murray throws little tid-bits into the interview that are completely advantageous to him and his 'cause' ie; CYA
By the time this interview took place, Murray KNEW he was in deep doggy-doo.

Talina
10-11-2011, 01:26 PM
Okay...did I hear right that law enforcement took no measures to lock down/secure the house after the 6/27 Dr. M interview after hearing about the medical bags still being there. They went back on 6/29 with search warrant but between 6/26 and 6/29, no law enforcement was on site, it was open (still under coroner's decision even though coroner had ruled it a homicide before 6/29) and LE never asked private security for a list of everyone that had been in and out of the home these days. Detective say no list was requested.

That surprises me if that is what I heard.

Defense asked who's authority at that time would have been to secure the premises, would it have been the coroner.
Detective said yes
Defense asked if he recommended it be secured.
Det said no, he asked if it was going to be and Coroner said no
Def asked if this surprised him
Det said given the circumstances they knew at that time, no it didn't surprise him.

mid morning break

2goaliemom
10-11-2011, 01:38 PM
This is misleading. Here is an article from July 10, 2009 where the police chief thinks the death may be ruled a homicide. Death was not officially ruled a homicide until August 24, 2009.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/michael-jacksons-death-might-be-ruled-homicide-police-chief-says-20090710

Talina
10-11-2011, 01:42 PM
This is misleading. Here is an article from July 10, 2009 where the police chief thinks the death may be ruled a homicide. Death was not officially ruled a homicide until August 2, 2009.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/michael-jacksons-death-might-be-ruled-homicide-police-chief-says-20090710

I thought it was later than what the defense atty was saying on this cross a few minutes ago. Your post is more in line with what I thought it was. Defense atty was making or outright saying that detectives knew on 6/27 that the coroner was ruling it a homicide but I didn't hear the detective disagree with that. I was talking to hubby at the time on and off so I may have misheard what the testimony was exactly.

I hope prosecution clears this up on redirect.

Talina
10-11-2011, 01:43 PM
I'm still wondering where the heck all the propofol was after 6/25. Dr. Murray ordered an awful lot of that stuff for them not to have found any in their search warrants. I suppose he could have thrown it out or gotten rid of it somehow.

Talina
10-11-2011, 01:49 PM
Def asked if detective interviewed Grace Rawamda(sp)
Pros objected
Sustained ( a few times)

Talina
10-11-2011, 01:50 PM
sidebar regarding trying to bring testimony in on Grace Rwaramba

borndem
10-11-2011, 01:55 PM
Rehashing now all the various areas of medical conditions he has treated MJ for since first meeting him.

Talking about the first thing he treated him for URI. Said few seconds before this that MJ never ate and drank properly and had told him that his mother always had to force him to eat. (wonder what Mrs. Jackson would say to that)

I think the think about MJ eating very little is probably true -- I was the same way -- altho I've recovered from that very, very well (!). My mother went to great lengths to get me to eat, up until I was about 12 y/o. And it's obvious that, at 136 lbs., MJ was not a big eater, so I'll buy that one for now.

Talina
10-11-2011, 01:57 PM
def now asking if detective interview Dr. Klein
Objection
Sustained

Def did you interview any other drs besides Dr. Murray and Dr.Adams
Det Yes

Def one of the things you mentioned is that you searched Dr.M's car
Det Ys

Def you remember him telling you go search my car, here are the keys
Det We ultimately got the keys, yes

Def did you personally go to Houston to execute search warrant
Det No, (then says who went)

Def now asking about executing search warrants in Las Vegas

Def during that search warrant you obtained his cell phone, computer hard drives, paperwork, paperwork involving Dr. Murray's practice at those particular offices
Det Yes

Def let me ask you if you have interviewed these ppl (starts listing specific drs)
Objection
Sustained

Def asks if detective interviewed "someone" Mohammed and someone named Issac Mohammed
Det answered not sure about the first but does remember the 2nd

Now asking about Derick Cleveland,
Det says yes

Def asking about detective meeting with Coronor
Det say yes

Def asking in one of these meetings that in earlier testimony you say this was a death investigation, but was later deemed a homicide
Det yes

Def asked when
Det late August it was deemed a homicide and not a death investigation any more

Def now asking if detective is aware other doctors were investigated and if detective is aware Dr.Winters (coroner) told them to stop looking at other doctors
Det yes he did

ETA: that was very choppy and jumping around questioning. He was all over the place.

Talina
10-11-2011, 01:58 PM
ugg afk again

Thundar
10-11-2011, 02:12 PM
I think the think about MJ eating very little is probably true -- I was the same way -- altho I've recovered from that very, very well (!). My mother went to great lengths to get me to eat, up until I was about 12 y/o. And it's obvious that, at 136 lbs., MJ was not a big eater, so I'll buy that one for now.

I would buy the not a big eater deal too, but what does that have to do with anything being asked during the interview? Murray is just going on and on about crap so it sounds like he knows MJ better than anyone else. I am not buying that, he only knew as much as MJ wanted him to know, and not as much as he should have known being what he was using for sleep medication on MJ. I am still shocked at what Murray thought was important to know about a patient that he was sedating with propofol every night. And shocked at what he did not take into account, like proper monitoring devices and such.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 02:15 PM
Defense is now showing witness notes on display about the empty propofol bottle and no notes about being in the saline bottle.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 02:17 PM
Prosecution now recrossing after Defense had a go. Trying to clear up what Defenese muddied up.

Talina
10-11-2011, 02:25 PM
Finally brought out that the reason for the late interviews on Aug 31. It was merely due to scheduling problems, one was avail, other wasn't on and off, vice versa. So now jurors won't think there is some sinister motive by Alvarez, Amir and Faheed to take time to cook up their testimony.

Talina
10-11-2011, 02:25 PM
Coroner up now. (wow he talks slow)

Thundar
10-11-2011, 02:27 PM
Defense is really going to look bad picking on this mild mannered guy.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 02:28 PM
Has handled or been apart of several thousand autopsies in his career.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 02:32 PM
Witness, I believe he was healthier than the general person at his age.

Enlargement of the prostate gland, virtiligo, palop on his colon, nervous system mild swelling, scarring in lungs, an extra rib, some arthritus, and then did a dental examination.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 02:35 PM
Mjs BMI fell within the normal range. 5'9"; 136 pounds.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 02:36 PM
Prosecutor now showing autopsy photo, media showed it too. Genitals are covered up, red spot on chest, tape on nose. IV is still in his arm. Wrong date is on the photo.

Talina
10-11-2011, 02:38 PM
Prosecutor now showing autopsy photo, media showed it too. Genitals are covered up, red spot on chest, tape on nose. IV is still in his arm. Wrong date is on the photo.

BBM

I think it was just blurred. I could see a small white line and it looked like a blurred "6" to me, not "8".

Thundar
10-11-2011, 02:38 PM
MJ did not have heart disease. No abnormalities noticed with his heart. Arteries did not show atherosclerosis. Unusual for this age of person. Build up of fat or cholesterol on vessels in heart. Very healthy individual for his age.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 02:42 PM
Anything strange with upper airway. Test for any foreign substance in upper airway, yes, find any, no.

Talina
10-11-2011, 02:43 PM
Coroner: MJ did not have heart disease and was a healthy individual for his age.

Coroner: No drama or natural disease was determined to be cause of death

Pros: did you observe his esophagus
Coroner: yes
Pros: did you observe any white substance or white milky fluid in his esophagus or stomach
Coroner: no, nothing like that
Pros: did you also examine the stomach in detail to determine if you could find any pill tablets or capsules of any kind
Coroner: yes I did
Pros: what did you find
Coroner: 70 grams of dark fluid, but no pills or capsules
Pros: was reason for this to be to determine if oral pills could have been cause of death
Coroner: yes
Pros: did you also check mouth and upper airway for any foreign material that could have been in mouth or upper airway
Coroner: yes
Pros: did yo find any
Coroner: no
Pros: in conducting your autopsy, you were not able to determine cause of death
Coroner: correct
Pros: did you request toxicology and see out other experts including anethesiologist
Coroner: yes

Pros: did you also witness the transcript and read through transcript of interview with D.r Murray
Coroner: yes

Pros: did you also see out medical records from Dr.Murray for his medical treatment on that day (6/25)
coroner: yes
Pros: were you able to receive it
Coroner: no

Talina
10-11-2011, 02:46 PM
P: upon receipt of toxicology report were you able to determine manner of death
C: yes, manner was homicide
P: for what reason
c: well based on the level of propofol and other drugs in the system and propofol being administered by other person (person being someone other than decedent) there was not a medical indication. problem MJ was having was that he couldn't sleep, it is not appropriate to give this type of medication for this condition
p: did you also consider the setting
c: yes, it was outside a medical setting, it was not in a hospital, it was in a home, monitors that should be there were not, etc (naming them all)

Thundar
10-11-2011, 02:47 PM
Manner of death, homicide. Several issues, circumstances, Murray statement to police, propofol administered by another person other than the decedent. Murray admitted administering propofol. Not an appropriate medical indication, problem with sleep is not appropriate. Got a phone call missed the rest. Anyone else?

Talina
10-11-2011, 02:48 PM
Coroner saying that the amount Dr. Murray says he gave him is not consistent with the amount found in his system.

Coroner is now throwing out the idea that MJ could have administered himself the propofol.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 02:51 PM
Did I hear that part correctly. No precision measuring devices for how much propofol was administered. The doctor could have administered more than what he thought he had? This witness just put another nail in Murrays defense coffin, did he not?

Talina
10-11-2011, 02:52 PM
p: now once you have finished your review of everything did you determine the cause of death
c: yes
P; what was cause of death
c: overdose of propofol and contributing factor bezodiazpeins(sp)

maing thing was propofol but smaller contributions from the smaller sedatives

p: would those smaller sedatives worked to have result in a quicker enchanced situation along with the propofol
c: yes (and expanding on that)

Talina
10-11-2011, 02:53 PM
Did I hear that part correctly. No precision measuring devices for how much propofol was administered. The doctor could have administered more than what he thought he had? This witness just put another nail in Murrays defense coffin, did he not?

Yes, you heard correctly.

Talina
10-11-2011, 02:54 PM
OT: hubby just said let me see a picture of that guy (coroner) so I showed him on my screen.

He says now would he just be a blast to sit through in a meeting. :)

Thundar
10-11-2011, 02:56 PM
OT: hubby just said let me see a picture of that guy (coroner) so I showed him on my screen.

He says now would he just be a blast to sit through in a meeting. :)

I know this is bad but I am just waiting for defense to have a go at this guy. I wonder which defense lawyer will take a turn at making himself look like a big fat meanie?

joe jones
10-11-2011, 03:00 PM
the pathologist has a very slow way of speaking, not great at testifying but good at his job, appears to have done a thorough autopsy

Talina
10-11-2011, 03:00 PM
p: did you notice anything unusual about the rubber stopper in the 100g propofol bottle
c: yes
p: what did you notice
c: the center of the rubber stopper has more or less a linear opening in it. no needle punctures, just this linear opening
p: did you draw any conclusions as to what would have made that opening, but not since medical school
def: objection
judge: sustained until foundation is established dr knows
p: marking exhibits showing stopper

p: can you see to what you are referring to the linear cut
c: yes
p: what is this
c: in about the center of the stopper there is an opening from side to side
p: basically a cut or an opening going from where you point the circle demarcation it is within that circle
c: yes
(my note: it is clear on the photo there is a cut in the rubber)

p: now are you familiar with what a syringe needle marking would leave on this
c: yes
p: did you observe any syringe needle markings
c: no
p: are you familiar with what could have made this linear opening
defense objected,, judge overruled
c: i personally have used devices that could make this kind of opening,but not since medical school
p: what medical device
c: the medical device is called a spike, you would push a spike into the rubber stopper and then the propofol will flow out into the end

break for lunch break

Thundar
10-11-2011, 03:00 PM
Discussing what could have made the opening in the propofol rubber.

Going to take the noon recess now. Until 1:30 California time.

Soulmagent
10-11-2011, 03:03 PM
What time is it now in California?

I have been in an out all day ,but when I heard Smith say he never noted the propofol bottle in the IV bag I was surprized.

borndem
10-11-2011, 03:03 PM
Now comes the Forensic M.E. - A real Party Guy, this one. But at least everyone s/be able to follow him in what can be a complex area of testimony.

Nothing obvious to indicate cause of death.

MJ's general health - healthier that the avg. person his age

Found enlarged prostate --> difficult to uninate; vitiligo; polyp in colon; mild diffuse swelling in nervous system; scarring in lungs; some arthritis; dental - implants & root canals; noticed "irregular pigmentation" at the top of his scalp (from previous accident of his hair catching on fire; 5'9', 136lbs - within normal range; thinner than normal; showed photo

no heart disease, no abnormalities; cor. arteries - no atheroschlerosis which is unusual for someone of his age not to have a little(build-up of fat & cholesterol); no natural disease found that would indicate death; esophagus normal, no milky fluid there or in the stomach; stomach did show 70 grams of dark fluid, no pills or capsules; mouth & airway trachea - no foreign materials found;

Could not find COD on this day - consulted others & read CM's transcript.
Could not obtain a listing of treatment from CM; consulted anesthesiologist;

Found Homicide as Manner of Death & than

Risk outweighs benefit of using propofol for insomnia; no ekg monitor or dosing device, no equip. for resuscitation if pt. should stop breathing; no equip. for improving circulation; found no evidence of self-administration of propofol; in order for MJ to do this himself in 2 minutes - he was under the influence of propofol - takes a while for leg-injected propofol to work & this scenario doesn't make as much sense as does someone else doing it -- too much has to happen in too short a time; propofol dose would be estimated & too much could be given & doc not realize it.

Cause of Death: Acute Propofol poisoning & benzodiazpene effect: midazolam & lorazepam are benzo's which exacerbate respiration problems & could cause cardiovascular problems which could cause the heart to stop.
Also pointed out the stopper of the propofol vial was not made by a needle but could be a cut -- showed it and it was nearly side to side in the rubber area. (excuse scrawling, please)

Thundar
10-11-2011, 03:04 PM
p: did you notice anything unusual about the rubber stopper in the 100g propofol bottle
c: yes
p: what did you notice
c: the center of the rubber stopper has more or less a linear opening in it. no needle punctures, just this linear opening
p: did you draw any conclusions as to what would have made that opening, but not since medical school
def: objection
judge: sustained until foundation is established dr knows
p: marking exhibits showing stopper

p: can you see to what you are referring to the linear cut
c: yes
p: what is this
c: in about the center of the stopper there is an opening from side to side
p: basically a cut or an opening going from where you point the circle demarkation it is within that circle
c: yes
(my note: it is clear on the photo there is a cut in the rubber)

p: now are you familar with what a syringe needle marking would leave on this
c: yes
p: did you observe any syringe needle markings
c: no
p: are you familar with what could have made this linear opening
defense objected,, just overruled
c: i personally have used devices that could make this kind of opening
p: what medical device
c: the medical device is called a spike, you would push a spike into the rubber stopper and then the propofol will flow out into the end

break for lunch break

We need a nurse to explain if this is what was talked about on earlier threads. Spiked as in put into the saline bag and spiked onto the iv tubing to flow directly into MJs leg? So the entire 100 ml bottle just went into his blood stream?

Thundar
10-11-2011, 03:06 PM
What time is it now in California?

I have been in an out all day ,but when I heard Smith say he never noted the propofol bottle in the IV bag I was surprized.

It's noon in California now. Or alittle after.

borndem
10-11-2011, 03:10 PM
Coroner saying that the amount Dr. Murray says he gave him is not consistent with the amount found in his system.

Coroner is now throwing out the idea that MJ could have administered himself the propofol.

Rut-rho....it's starting to fall apart just an itsy-bitsy bit....

Talina
10-11-2011, 03:14 PM
We need a nurse to explain if this is what was talked about on earlier threads. Spiked as in put into the saline bag and spiked onto the iv tubing to flow directly into MJs leg? So the entire 100 ml bottle just went into his blood stream?

Don't confuse spike with an action. The coroner is talking about a medical device called a "spike" that could have been used to create the linear cut to then allow free flow of the propofol, as opposed to a needle from a syringe to draw out smaller incremental amounts.

Talina
10-11-2011, 03:17 PM
Rut-rho....it's starting to fall apart just an itsy-bitsy bit....

Yes, and the coroner went into great detail as to how MJ could not have administered this to himself. Much of what we have discussed in detail here on this forum. (i.e. the assumptions that you would have to make on MJs actions to be able to administer that amount to himself is just not possible. He'd not stay awake long enough to do it, among other issues with that whole theory)

borndem
10-11-2011, 03:17 PM
Well from what I gathered by bits and pieces all it sounds like Def is really trying to play down Dr.M being inaccessible for 2 days following the death.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon5.gif Yes - it may be nothing, but it's weird to me....Just what WAS he doing & WHERE was he doing it???

Talina
10-11-2011, 03:19 PM
Jean Casaras is in the courtroom today. She just said on HLN that the jurors are taking a lot of notes (she stressed a lot) during the coroner's testimony.

Talina
10-11-2011, 03:24 PM
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon5.gif Yes - it may be nothing, but it's weird to me....Just what WAS he doing & WHERE was he doing it???

Well, according to his attorney, he is the one that told him to turn his phone off and wait until he could meet with him. He apparently had another legal matter he was involved in all day Friday so told Dr.Murray to turn his cell phone off. He said this on the taped interview (the attorney).

Now..me? I suspect Dr.Murray was busy talking to his attorney, his office, cancelling the order for the medical supplies he wouldn't now be needing, getting rid of the gallons of propofol he had stockpiled, and whatever else he was able to clean up before the investigation got too far.

katydid23
10-11-2011, 03:25 PM
I hope the jurors do not get fooled by the taped interview with Murray. He self servingly made himself sound so very caring and nurturing. The way he talked about looking after
Micheal's feet and his eyes and wanting to make sure he was all safe and healthy.

But all of that goes against his horribly negligent behavior that night, hooking him up to that IV without a monitor or any vital equipment and then leaving the room to talk to his girlfriends. I HOPE the jurors do not lose sight of that when they listen to his fake concern in the interview. :mad:

Thundar
10-11-2011, 03:26 PM
Don't confuse spike with an action. The coroner is talking about a medical device called a "spike" that could have been used to create the linear cut to then allow free flow of the propofol, as opposed to a needle from a syringe to draw out smaller incremental amounts.

Thank you. I was thinking of the part of the saline bag that the iv tubing came from as being a spike. Do you know what a spike itself would look like? And did they find one in with all the drugs? I don't recall.

2goaliemom
10-11-2011, 03:29 PM
Interesting article at this website about MJ toxicology report. Be sure to read the comments below.

http://lawmedconsultant.com/2575/toxicology-in-the-michael-jackson-manslaughter-trial

Talina
10-11-2011, 03:32 PM
Thank you. I was thinking of the part of the saline bag that the iv tubing came from as being a spike. Do you know what a spike itself would look like? And did they find one in with all the drugs? I don't recall.

I don't remember anything like that being found but that means nothing to me. I'm sure there is quite a bit that wasn't found. IMO

I did a google search on a medical spike a few minutes ago and it looks like they are available with different types of ends on them for insertion or cutting into something. Some are pointed, some are angled, some are straight across.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 03:41 PM
I don't remember anything like that being found but that means nothing to me. I'm sure there is quite a bit that wasn't found. IMO

I did a google search on a medical spike a few minutes ago and it looks like they are available with different types of ends on them for insertion or cutting into something. Some are pointed, some are angled, some are straight across.

One of the google search hits was a medical supply company and the picture showed an iv infusion set with spike. So maybe there is one in evidence with the iv infusion sets ordered from the pharmacy.

Talina
10-11-2011, 03:48 PM
Interesting article at this website about MJ toxicology report. Be sure to read the comments below.

http://lawmedconsultant.com/2575/toxicology-in-the-michael-jackson-manslaughter-trial

Thanks for that link. Very informative and easy to understand.

LyndyLoo
10-11-2011, 04:04 PM
We need a nurse to explain if this is what was talked about on earlier threads. Spiked as in put into the saline bag and spiked onto the iv tubing to flow directly into MJs leg? So the entire 100 ml bottle just went into his blood stream?

here is a youtube that shows exactly what they are talking about...Far to difficult to explain in words so you can visualize..

MTSU School of Nursing: Spike and Prime Part 1 - YouTube

Isabelle
10-11-2011, 04:17 PM
p: did you notice anything unusual about the rubber stopper in the 100g propofol bottle
c: yes
p: what did you notice
c: the center of the rubber stopper has more or less a linear opening in it. no needle punctures, just this linear opening
p: did you draw any conclusions as to what would have made that opening, but not since medical school
def: objection
judge: sustained until foundation is established dr knows
p: marking exhibits showing stopper

p: can you see to what you are referring to the linear cut
c: yes
p: what is this
c: in about the center of the stopper there is an opening from side to side
p: basically a cut or an opening going from where you point the circle demarcation it is within that circle
c: yes
(my note: it is clear on the photo there is a cut in the rubber)

p: now are you familiar with what a syringe needle marking would leave on this
c: yes
p: did you observe any syringe needle markings
c: no
p: are you familiar with what could have made this linear opening
defense objected,, judge overruled
c: i personally have used devices that could make this kind of opening,but not since medical school
p: what medical device
c: the medical device is called a spike, you would push a spike into the rubber stopper and then the propofol will flow out into the end

break for lunch break

Yes indeed!!!!!!!!!!!

Isabelle
10-11-2011, 04:19 PM
We need a nurse to explain if this is what was talked about on earlier threads. Spiked as in put into the saline bag and spiked onto the iv tubing to flow directly into MJs leg? So the entire 100 ml bottle just went into his blood stream?

Exactly! And the saline bag just acted as a device for hanging, since the propofol bottle does not have a hanging loop on it. Very creative dr. Murray is!

Isabelle
10-11-2011, 04:20 PM
Don't confuse spike with an action. The coroner is talking about a medical device called a "spike" that could have been used to create the linear cut to then allow free flow of the propofol, as opposed to a needle from a syringe to draw out smaller incremental amounts.

The end of and IV tubing administration set does have a 'spike' on it and it is used for that exact purpose to spike through thick rubber stoppers. These spikes are approx 5mm in diameter with a large sharp beveled end, like a needle has only thicker.

borndem
10-11-2011, 04:21 PM
Well, according to his attorney, he is the one that told him to turn his phone off and wait until he could meet with him. He apparently had another legal matter he was involved in all day Friday so told Dr.Murray to turn his cell phone off. He said this on the taped interview (the attorney).

Now..me? I suspect Dr.Murray was busy talking to his attorney, his office, cancelling the order for the medical supplies he wouldn't now be needing, getting rid of the gallons of propofol he had stockpiled, and whatever else he was able to clean up before the investigation got too far.

ITA -
Okay, I'll give the good doctor doing something with his phone -- I'm sure he was getting a lot of curiosity-killed-the-cat calls -- but let it go to msgs, just in case the LEOs wanted him.

And yes, indeed-y, he had to get rid of his super stash of milk -- it was too hot for him to try to make a bit of cash to black-market it (pity for him, huh?), and he was smart enuff to know it would soon be evidence if he didn't get rid of it. Yes, and it was gallons...can you imagine?!

Talina
10-11-2011, 04:22 PM
The end of and IV tubing administration set does have a 'spike' on it and it is used for that exact purpose to spike through thick rubber stoppers.

Yes. I understood the question, though, to be how the propofol was used to spike the saline solution as in spiking a drink, so to speak. I just tried to clarify that is not what the coroner meant by using the word spike.

tweezybird
10-11-2011, 04:31 PM
Is the trial due to resume? I just got in and thought it should have started again.

peace9274
10-11-2011, 04:31 PM
Showtime!

Thundar
10-11-2011, 04:31 PM
They are back in session.

Talina
10-11-2011, 04:31 PM
Back in session.

clarifying that the date on the photo is correct, just angled bad so the 6 looked like an 8.

Coroner agrees he had a chance to look at it during the recess.

Talina
10-11-2011, 04:34 PM
Prosecution asking coroner to further describe what he means by spiking the rubber in the propofol bottle.

Pros showed an illustration similar to what we see in the video posted above.
Coroner says yes, that is what he is referring to.

Pros showing a LAPD item
Coroner says it is an IV catheter with needle still present
Pros used or unused
Coroner it appears unused

Pros showing LAPD different item LAPD item 142 syringe from nightstand
did this appear to fit the other catheter
Coroner i did look at the item and it did not appear to fit

Pros passes witness to Def (flanagan to cross)

Talina
10-11-2011, 04:35 PM
Flanagan has asked for a number of exhibits and they are being pulled now.

Talina
10-11-2011, 04:35 PM
Going to be touch and go what I can type from testimony - cooking supper right now

LyndyLoo
10-11-2011, 04:37 PM
Yes. I understood the question, though, to be how the propofol was used to spike the saline solution as in spiking a drink, so to speak. I just tried to clarify that is not what the coroner meant by using the word spike.

That spike that is used to go thru the Flask opening of fluid is rather long..and "Ill bet Conrad slit the bag..and pushed the propofol rubber stopper down onto the spike"..thus fluid would then drain thru tubing downward thru tubing to patient by gravity..since NO PUMP was used... No way MJ could do that little task..it takes some elbow grease to do that..

Thundar
10-11-2011, 04:41 PM
Defense about propofol, we can't be sure who gave it. Witness, correct. What was the defense expecting with that question? Other than doubt that Murray did it?

Isabelle
10-11-2011, 05:11 PM
Coroner isn't going to buy Flanagan's 'studies'.

Isabelle
10-11-2011, 05:16 PM
I like the coroner, and worked with a Dr. like him - personality like a wet cardboard box.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 05:20 PM
This testimony is painful. And hard to follow. Defense is asking all the same things he asked the coroner investigator. Witness keeps checking his notes and figuring doses out on scrap paper. Painful is an understatement.

joe jones
10-11-2011, 05:21 PM
I don't know if the defence is scoring any points as he is jumping from point to point and I have no idea what they are talking about,

I don't think the focusing on the science will have a huge effect on the juries verdict, things like the use of propofol as a sleeping drug outside of hospital setting, his not calling 911, his not mentioning propfol to paramedics or to Drs at the hospital, his getting propofol delivered to his home, trying to sell the idea that MJ self administered things like this will weigh more in the juries deliberations I think

Talina
10-11-2011, 05:24 PM
Okay, here we go again with 8 pills. Where or how has the defense come up with the number 8 for the pills they say MJ took outside the presence of Dr. M?

Thundar
10-11-2011, 05:26 PM
Defense is doing hypotheticals without calling them that, this time it's let's say about ten o'clock.

Talking about doses and times, then asked if that causes you to take a second look? Witness did not understand question. He is not alone, I am waving my hand in the air too.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 05:28 PM
Okay, here we go again with 8 pills. Where or how has the defense come up with the number 8 for the pills they say MJ took outside the presence of Dr. M?

My opinion, defense got some Dr. to explain to them that 8 of those pills taken by mouth by MJ at 10 am would lead to cardiac arrest or to stop breathing. Now if they can just get one of these doctors to agree they have it made.

Isabelle
10-11-2011, 05:32 PM
Maybe the judge will throw flanagan out! Looks like he is getting ticked.

Talina
10-11-2011, 05:32 PM
IMO over the course of this trial so far, the defense has had some good moments with their cross examining. For the most part, though, they are so all over the board and jumping around here and there, that they lose me a lot of the time with what they are trying to accomplish. It's like their goal at cross is lost in the process because they skip around from topic to topic. (at least that is my opinion - I find myself saying a lot "okay, so what does that have to do with anything and how does that help you?" before that is answered, they are off onto something else totally different and then hop back to something else before they finish the new topic. It's very disjointed to me.

Isabelle
10-11-2011, 05:32 PM
Was the concentration of lorazepam in the gastric fluid in micrograms??

Isabelle
10-11-2011, 05:34 PM
I think Flanagan is moving his decimal point the wrong way. Just a suspicion.

Talina
10-11-2011, 05:35 PM
LOL! this judge looks like he is losing patience fast with Flanagan. He just frowned and almost rolled his eyes when he told him he was using hypotheticals assuming facts not in evidence.

Talina
10-11-2011, 05:37 PM
Flanagan calls witness Mr. Rogers. Judge quickly corrects him "Dr Rogers". LOL

lots of objections being sustained in this cross right now

Talina
10-11-2011, 05:40 PM
Flanagan is having a Baez / Perry moment with this judge. The judge is sustaining a lot of the same types of objections and the judge just told him how he needs to phrase his question. ooops while i'm tying this, another objection sustained. Flanagan is going to need a dose of lorazipam after this cross..i bet the good dr. M can help him out with that. :floorlaugh:

sidebar requested by Flanagan (not surprising - he needs to get himself back on track)

Isabelle
10-11-2011, 05:40 PM
Where can I find the tox report?

Thundar
10-11-2011, 05:41 PM
Was the concentration of lorazepam in the gastric fluid in micrograms??

Summary of drugs found at autopsy.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a113/JudeKay45/Conrad%20Murray%20Case/summaryofresults.jpg

Talina
10-11-2011, 05:42 PM
Summary of drugs found at autopsy.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a113/JudeKay45/Conrad%20Murray%20Case/summaryofresults.jpg

There's another one just for the gastric content being tested by an outside lab.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 05:42 PM
Recess until 3:00 California time. I bet this witness needs a recess.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 05:45 PM
There's another one just for the gastric content being tested by an outside lab.

Has anyone found that one posted online anywhere?

Isabelle
10-11-2011, 05:45 PM
Summary of drugs found at autopsy.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a113/JudeKay45/Conrad%20Murray%20Case/summaryofresults.jpg

Thanks Thundar. The Lorazepam was not found in the stomach. The amount in the blood is is micrograms = .001 milligram/ml. If the human body has 5 liters of blood = 5000ml then the total amount of Lorazepam if equal throughout the body would be 5mg. Very close to the amount given by Dr. Murray. I could be wrong here, but Flanagan is pi..ing me off.

Talina
10-11-2011, 05:54 PM
Thanks Thundar. The Lorazepam was not found in the stomach. The amount in the blood is is micrograms = .001 milligram/ml. If the human body has 5 liters of blood = 5000ml then the total amount of Lorazepam if equal throughout the body would be 5mg. Very close to the amount given by Dr. Murray. I could be wrong here, but Flanagan is pi..ing me off.

Toxicology on gastric contents was not done at autopsy. It was done in Aug of 2011 by the defense at a different lab. That is what Flanagan is going on about regarding the drug levels in the gastric content. That exhibit was shown earlier in the trial but I can't seem to find a copy of it posted any where. There was Lorazepam in gastric content and that is what the math calculation was that was shown earlier. Dan Anderson did that calculation.

Isabelle
10-11-2011, 05:57 PM
Was Dan Anderson the independent toxicologist for Defense?

2goaliemom
10-11-2011, 05:58 PM
LOL! this judge looks like he is losing patience fast with Flanagan. He just frowned and almost rolled his eyes when he told him he was using hypotheticals assuming facts not in evidence.

lol is right! The judge is even feeding Walgren objections----Flanagan is in big trouble and very, very annoying.

Talina
10-11-2011, 06:01 PM
Was Dan Anderson the independent toxicologist for Defense?

No. Dan is the toxicologist with the coroner's office.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 06:02 PM
Was Dan Anderson the independent toxicologist for Defense?

I don't think so, it's still the prosecutions case. Unless they changed that for this trial too. Defense has put things into evidence during prosecutions case, so who knows?

2goaliemom
10-11-2011, 06:04 PM
Was Dan Anderson the independent toxicologist for Defense?

He was the criminalist who already testified regarding tox report. He's the one that Flanagan started questioning about "pills" and is now carrying over here with Rogers.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 06:04 PM
Back from break, Right back to Lorazapam.

Talina
10-11-2011, 06:08 PM
IMO Flanagan spends (i.e. wastes) a lot of time asking witnesses questions outside their area of expertise and then just not give up when they tell him it is outside their area. He needs to brush up on what type of testimony to which the different experts will testify. It would probably eliminate a lot of the confusion and time wasted.

CarolinaMoon
10-11-2011, 06:10 PM
Thank you all for explaining what's going on. I'm watching, but in a stupor. One constant in my mind is that Flannagan is building his cross on the verbal reports by Dr. Murray. Problem is, I don't find Murray believable in any context in this case, based upon his interview with LE. Oh, and let's not forget that there is only Murray's oral report because he never kept notes on times and dosages. Bad doctor! :nono:

Thundar
10-11-2011, 06:11 PM
IMO Flanagan spends (i.e. wastes) a lot of time asking witnesses questions outside their area of expertise and then just not give up when they tell him it is outside their area. He needs to brush up on what type of testimony to which the different experts will testify. It would probably eliminate a lot of the confusion and time wasted.

The last witness defense did this to kept saying it was outside his area of expertise and just now was the first time this witness said that.(that I heard.)

Talina
10-11-2011, 06:14 PM
I have to wonder if the jury is still paying close attention to any of these questions. I know he lost my intent interest quite some time ago. He goes over and over what seems to me is the same thing. He is quite stuck on trying to get the coroner to agree with something he says about pills and there is no evidence there were even any pills taken.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 06:16 PM
Defense is getting ready to finish up. Asking what the coronor's office examined and did not examine (urine, stomach contents).

Thundar
10-11-2011, 06:18 PM
I have to wonder if the jury is still paying close attention to any of these questions. I know he lost my intent interest quite some time ago. He goes over and over what seems to me is the same thing. He is quite stuck on trying to get the coroner to agree with something he says about pills and there is no evidence there were even any pills taken.

I feel like my head has a cloud in front of my eyes from this defense cross. I imagine the jury would feel the same way.

Lexiintoronto
10-11-2011, 06:20 PM
IMO Flanagan spends (i.e. wastes) a lot of time asking witnesses questions outside their area of expertise and then just not give up when they tell him it is outside their area. He needs to brush up on what type of testimony to which the different experts will testify. It would probably eliminate a lot of the confusion and time wasted.

I believe he's doing that purposefully in an attempt to confuse the jury. And to possibly to float out the impression that the experts don't really know exactly which drugs and their amounts that led to MJ's death. :twocents:

Talina
10-11-2011, 06:20 PM
The last witness defense did this to kept saying it was outside his area of expertise and just now was the first time this witness said that.(that I heard.)

He's said it in different ways IMO. He's said he doesn't understand the question then judge sustained. Even when reasked sometimes he would say again and judge would sustain. He's said "I don't know" several times when pros objections saying outside area of expertise. (like just now).

He's also said outside my area specifically.

To me, most of those "I don't know(s)" and "I don't understand question" is the coroner's way of saying outside my area. I could be wrong.

Talina
10-11-2011, 06:22 PM
I'd really like the defense to ask questions based on facts in evidence instead of all these hypotheticals.

Talina
10-11-2011, 06:23 PM
Well...hallelujah. Flanagan wants to now talk about the coroner's report.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 06:23 PM
He's said it in different ways IMO. He's said he doesn't understand the question then judge sustained. Even when reasked sometimes he would say again and judge would sustain. He's said "I don't know" several times when pros objections saying outside area of expertise. (like just now).

He's also said outside my area specifically.

To me, most of those "I don't know(s)" and "I don't understand question" is the coroner's way of saying outside my area. I could be wrong.

I don't understand the question is what I keep repeating to myself too.

I really thought defense might be done but I was wrong again. How many times can they cover the same material from different directions?

Lexiintoronto
10-11-2011, 06:26 PM
For those of you following along with the cross-examination, more word problems to do during commercial breaks:

1. There are 24 hours in a day and scientists tell us that we should sleep for 3/8 of the day. How much time should we spend sleeping?

2. The National History Museum has collected 125 dinosaurs. George has collected 3/5 of this amount. How many dinosaurs has George collected?

3. Mr Murrin is 160cm tall and his brother Tom is 7/8 as tall as him. How tall is Tom?

4. The weather forecaster says that it is 200 C in London but only 7/10 as hot in New York. How hot is it in New York?

There will be a test on this later!

Talina
10-11-2011, 06:32 PM
I sure hope we see the prosecution's anesthesiologist witness next.

Gawwww..coroner just IV was by left knee. Other medical testimony has said right knee. What the heck knee was it?

Talina
10-11-2011, 06:37 PM
Okay, so now we're to believe that Dr. Murray had the propofol in the syringe but had not injected it. Instead, he left the room with the loaded syringe just laying there in MJ reach (after MJ had been asking for it and it being denied by Dr. M) and then MJ injected himself.

say what?

Talina
10-11-2011, 06:39 PM
Prosecution asking witness if he would agree that most of the questions asked by the defense were related to pharmacology and out of his area of expertise.

Witness said yes, that is correct.

CarolinaMoon
10-11-2011, 06:39 PM
WTG! Prosecutor is asking all those questions the jury needed answered! Oxygen tank empty, eyes wide open doesn't me sudden death.

Talina
10-11-2011, 06:41 PM
IMO Walgren wasting no time cleaning up the cross examination.

Talina
10-11-2011, 06:46 PM
Prosecution now asking his own hypothetical...lots of assumptions that Flanagan left out of his he stated.

Pros asks if self administration of propofol along with other things presented by Flanagan's hypothetical, would you still rule homicide (since basically Dr. M set up the environment for MJ to do the self administering).
Coroner said yes, still homicide

Talina
10-11-2011, 06:56 PM
Flanagan asking coroner a lot of questions about Dr.Shaffer's report. Why not save those questions for the author of the report or at least another anesthesiologist?

Talina
10-11-2011, 06:58 PM
witness done...so we start with new witness tomorrow.

Most likely recessed for the day since it is 4pm there.

Judge called sidebar.

Lexiintoronto
10-11-2011, 06:59 PM
Prosecution now asking his own hypothetical...lots of assumptions that Flanagan left out of his he stated.

Pros asks if self administration of propofol along with other things presented by Flanagan's hypothetical, would you still rule homicide (since basically Dr. M set up the environment for MJ to do the self administering).
Coroner said yes, still homicide

I think that's key testimony.

Talina
10-11-2011, 07:06 PM
court recessed til 8:45 am 10/12/11

octobermoon
10-11-2011, 07:11 PM
Thank you all for keeping those of us who missed a lot today informed. :)

Vhead
10-11-2011, 07:14 PM
http://m.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2FWPl3Uj0y&h=bAQDqkAGA&refid=7

MJ's official autopsy report


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Vhead
10-11-2011, 07:16 PM
Sorry this is the link:

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/11/autopsy-mj-had-tattoos-on-scalp-eyebrows-and-lips/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Isabelle
10-11-2011, 07:19 PM
I sure hope we see the prosecution's anesthesiologist witness next.

Gawwww..coroner just IV was by left knee. Other medical testimony has said right knee. What the heck knee was it?

I thought I heard it once said it was by an ankle??

edited to add: noted in autopsy report that there were punctures of left calf and right ankle.

Isabelle
10-11-2011, 07:30 PM
Guarantee Dr Murray removed the tubing from the Propofol bottle and IV before Alvarez got to the room. Probably discarded it with other stuff somewhere at the hospital as was previously stated.

LyndyLoo
10-11-2011, 07:33 PM
I thought I heard it once said it was by an ankle??

Yes Dr. Rogers stated the site was behind the left knee..and just wish to point out...the IV stand was on the RIGHT side of the bed..as was CM and his comfy chair and drugs...So given scenerio of DT..MJ would have to have the manual dexterity to locate propol, find the port about 6 cm from IV site..insert syringe..plunger it, remove it..return syrige to bedside table..and resume position on his back..and ohhh yeah..get 8 pills out of container, swallow without any water handy..too..Yikes!!

Somethings is amiss by Conrad's recollections??..:waitasec:

Talina
10-11-2011, 08:00 PM
Yes Dr. Rogers stated the site was behind the left knee..and just wish to point out...the IV stand was on the RIGHT side of the bed..as was CM and his comfy chair and drugs...So given scenerio of DT..MJ would have to have the manual dexterity to locate propol, find the port about 6 cm from IV site..insert syringe..plunger it, remove it..return syrige to bedside table..and resume position on his back..and ohhh yeah..get 8 pills out of container, swallow without any water handy..too..Yikes!!

Somethings is amiss by Conrad's recollections??..:waitasec:

And on top of that, all of those items are missing any finger prints of MJ.

I can see limited or very few finger prints of Dr. M. He had gloves at his disposal. I guess we can assume in that hypothetical that MJ also put gloves on and removed them before going unconscious.

Thundar
10-11-2011, 08:57 PM
I watched most of the testimony today, at least what I could and still carry on my normal routine. So, what if anything new did I learn today? I got to see another autopsy picture presented by the prosecutor. I got to hear again mode and cause of death, which has not changed. I got to hear a lot of hypotheticals presented by defense.

The explanation of the spike mark in the propofol bottle I think was new info in testimony. Other than those things I heard a lot of blahblahblah from the defense.

Thank you to everyone who explained things today.

What did you learn from the trial today?

oceanblueeyes
10-11-2011, 09:10 PM
Well one thing I have learned from Murray's "made for LE' interview is he certainly is a self serving individual. He builds himself up and throws everyone else under the bus.

He lies and says he is the one that ordered the autopsy. He was not even in charge of MJs body once the ER head doctor took control. MJ became her patient.......not Doc Murray.

He said he is the one who advised that a social worker be called for the children when the ER head doctor said that is standard protocol when they have a code and the social worker was already there with the family.

To hear him tell it he was calling the shots and everyone else were following his orders. Horsepoopy.

He would have the jury believe he is totally blameless and did everything correctly yet he ignorantly calls propofol a sedative and while also saying it can be used for anesthesia. There is nothing on the pamphlet inside the propofol box that states propofol is to be used as a sedative or sleep aide.

He also wants the jury to believe that MJ laid awake for many hours sleeping only 15 minutes out of that long time line. Is this logical? Is it reasonable to believe such claims? Especially when the DT has painted MJ as this raging insomniac who needed propofol to sleep? Even Murray states MJ told him NOTHING ELSE worked. So why would he take lorazeapam then?

Who continues chest compressions on a patient that supposedly already has a rapid heart rate? One that has no clue what they are doing OR they are making the entire thing up.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
10-11-2011, 09:20 PM
I watched most of the testimony today, at least what I could and still carry on my normal routine. So, what if anything new did I learn today? I got to see another autopsy picture presented by the prosecutor. I got to hear again mode and cause of death, which has not changed. I got to hear a lot of hypotheticals presented by defense.

The explanation of the spike mark in the propofol bottle I think was new info in testimony. Other than those things I heard a lot of blahblahblah from the defense.

Thank you to everyone who explained things today.

What did you learn from the trial today?

I was not offended by the autopsy photo of Michael at all. I think the state presented it with the most dignity they could to the jury.

It showed me that MJ was not emaciated. He was lean but then he has always been extremely lean. Imo, it showed a healthy man who looked much younger than he really was. If I didn't know he was dead it looked like he was just a man that could have been there sleeping in a hospital room.

It did make me feel sad that this healthy man died and it didn't have to happen. If only Murray could have been as attentive to his one patient as he was in talking and texting with his ladies this would have turned out much differently and so many lives wouldnt have been shattered.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
10-11-2011, 09:26 PM
Flanagan asking coroner a lot of questions about Dr.Shaffer's report. Why not save those questions for the author of the report or at least another anesthesiologist?

This has bugged me from the start when it comes to Flanagan. He goes on and on with the same subject and it isn't even the expert he should be asking and believe me he knows that. He just wants to get that out there to the jury ad nauseaum no matter which witness he has to use to do it.

I think that is why Walgren finally called for a side bar.

IMO

borndem
10-11-2011, 09:38 PM
I like the coroner, and worked with a Dr. like him - personality like a wet cardboard box.

:floorlaugh: Whew, Isabelle, I needed a laff!!!:lol: I've never heard quite that particular description, but it definitely paints a picture! :laugh: Still smiling.

And we've all known someone like that. :clap: Thanks for breaking up the slog through all this medical mystery tour. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

borndem
10-11-2011, 09:46 PM
Maybe the judge will throw flanagan out! Looks like he is getting ticked.

Hooo-boy is he! He had a scrunched-up look when he had to ask the sizzling live-wire coroner to speak up (again), but I didn't think that that little l man was pizzing him off, but I could tell it was something. I think Hizzoner's bile at flanagan has been building, & he may be on his last nerve with him.

Obfuscate, go in a zig-zag line, and baffle 'em with bullsheet.... gets old, doesn't it?

borndem
10-11-2011, 10:11 PM
Was the concentration of lorazepam in the gastric fluid in micrograms??


The only gastric stats were lidocaine at 1.6mg & propofol at 0.13mg. Nothing else was measured.

borndem
10-11-2011, 10:20 PM
Where can I find the tox report?

It's very near the end of the attached AR.

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Celebs/jackson,%20michael_report.pdf

Talina
10-11-2011, 10:35 PM
The only gastric stats were lidocaine at 1.6mg & propofol at 0.13mg. Nothing else was measured.

I'm pretty sure that the gastric contents toxicology report did show lorazipam. That was a different toxicology report than the one done and attached to the autopsy report. The gastric contents toxicology report was done in Aug 2011 by an outside toxicologist hired by the def team.

ETA: http://www.antiguaobserver.com/?p=65588

and:

http://lawmedconsultant.com/2575/toxicology-in-the-michael-jackson-manslaughter-trial excerpt: The coronerís office did not test the gastric contents for an actual level of lorazepam, since the blood results which showed a low amount of lorazepam, any amount in the stomach would be irrelevant to the cause of death. The defense claims that the amount of lorazepam in the stomach was 4x the amount found in the blood according to subsequent testing they had done. This would not have affected Jackson however, since it is the amount in the bloodstream which affects the patient

Crosby87
10-11-2011, 11:35 PM
http://tmz.vo.llnwd.net/o28/newsdesk/tmz_documents/1007_conrad_murray_transcript.pdf

This is the transcript

Thank you Talina,

I learned Michael Jackson had a subluxation of his right hip and Dr. Murray is 6’4” - 6’5” tall and weighs approximately 220 lbs.

Page 12, Dr. Murray: “But during a cursory physical examination, I did not find any major physical change except for a subluxation of his right hip. When asked to explain what a subluxation is, Dr. Murray replied, “It’s like if you have a joint that goes out of place, and comes back in at a certain angle. So whenever he bent to 90 degrees or greater, his hip would slip out of joint - sits back up, slides back in”.

Page 44: re: Propofol - Dr. Murray: He never told me that he administered it himself, but he had said to me that the doctors allowed him to infuse it himself. And I refused him that opportunity. And he asked me, “Why would you -- Why don’t you want me to push it? I love to push it. You know, it makes me feel medicine is great.” I said, “Well, if I’m going to give you an agent that is going to put you to sleep immediately and be so quick to act, I don’t want you ever to infuse such a substance when I am present. I’ll do that. So sorry about the other doctors who have done this. I would not.”

I got a chuckle when I read this, When Dr. Murray said MJ asked for milk so he could sleep, Detective Smith said, “Hot milk or warm, or just”.

borndem
10-12-2011, 12:07 AM
I feel like my head has a cloud in front of my eyes from this defense cross. I imagine the jury would feel the same way.

That's what this defense team is trying to do: They are trying to O.D. the jury on all this confusing, complicated, hard-to-understand, too-much-math, too many milligrams (what's a dayam milligram, anyway?) and micrograms and nanograms, diazepam, lorazepam, medazipam, and I-don't-give-a-dayam, and diprivan, ativan and minivan (or whatever it is), and propofol, folderol, and flomax, and lorax, remax, and versed, and spikes, and oximeters, speedometers, and thermometers, and I'm so confused, I'm just gonna ignore this part.

======> That's what they're after -- just hoping the jury will just feel so unqualified and uneducated about all this pharmacology and toxicology and blabology that they will just skip that part in their deliberations. MJ's doctor sounded so nice, he must be okay. Not guilty. :maddening:

katydid23
10-12-2011, 12:13 AM
I noted one thing the defense tried to sway the jury with today. They acted all butt hurt that LE did not watch surveillance videos AFTER the death, because they implied that anyone could have come in and tampered with the doctor's medical bags. They tried to implicate the Jackson family in doing so, by pointing out that they found the pot in another suitcase in a closet. Thus by inference, they must have found this closet and looked inside of and messed with these medical bags too. I hope the jury does not accept that.

borndem
10-12-2011, 12:28 AM
Guarantee Dr Murray removed the tubing from the Propofol bottle and IV before Alvarez got to the room. Probably discarded it with other stuff somewhere at the hospital as was previously stated.

Yes, indeed -- My thoughts exactly -- I think it's the first thing he did, probably after one look at little MJ.

Only after that little clean-up did he start his version of CPR on the bed. He knew MJ had been dead for probably an hour -- I'll grant him that much knowledge about medicine.http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon8.gif

borndem
10-12-2011, 12:56 AM
IIRC, on the 25th, after things kind of calmed down at the hospital, it was said that the security unit at MJ's house was replaced. (Maybe I just imagined it -- if no one else recalls, just ignore this dribble, please.)

If that is so, who gave directions for the security to be replaced and what new unit was put on security? Who would have had that authority unless it was the Coroner or the LEO's? :waitasec:

Odd, seems to me.

TIA if someone knows. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon11.gif

21merc7
10-12-2011, 06:06 AM
That's what this defense team is trying to do: They are trying to O.D. the jury on all this confusing, complicated, hard-to-understand, too-much-math, too many milligrams (what's a dayam milligram, anyway?) and micrograms and nanograms, diazepam, lorazepam, medazipam, and I-don't-give-a-dayam, and diprivan, ativan and minivan (or whatever it is), and propofol, folderol, and flomax, and lorax, remax, and versed, and spikes, and oximeters, speedometers, and thermometers, and I'm so confused, I'm just gonna ignore this part.

======> That's what they're after -- just hoping the jury will just feel so unqualified and uneducated about all this pharmacology and toxicology and blabology that they will just skip that part in their deliberations. MJ's doctor sounded so nice, he must be okay. Not guilty. :maddening:


I know you did not intend for this to be funny, but I got a chuckle out of it. Especially minivan and lorax. :crazy:

You are correct, the defense is trying to confuse, to create that "reasonable doubt." It will be difficult regardless of how medically educated or not the jurors are because of the one big thing. Propofol.

I think most all of us, besides the medical professionals here, had no idea about propofol before MJ's death. At least I didn't. I then understood it is an anesthetic, something to be used for surgery only ===== what even the medically uneducated juror's understand.

So, defense would like it if they find Murray not guilty of manslaughter, but, it would be nice if they let him continue to practice medicine too. Confuse them with who gave it and why, maybe they will be so boggled that the manslaughter gets tossed out of their minds. Tell them MJ did it to himself, maybe they will just say "Aw heck with it, it is MJ's fault, let Murray continue to practice."

BUT, how can the jurors overlook the obvious. MJ could not give himself the propofol. MJ hired Murray to give it to him and to watch him while under propofol as he knew it could have "some" consequences. (This is why they explain this stuff to you and you sign forms about it in the hospital.) How can the jurors overlook the lorazapam (spelling?), the lack of proper monitoring equipment, the texts and phone calls, the one handed chest compressions, Murray not calling 911 and talking to the chef instead, and the list goes on.

I feel for the defense in that this is one heck of tough case to defend. I'm sure they have chosen jurors as wisely as possible, but if there is any little doubt, all the jurors have to do is request to review the evidence, the transcripts, the autopsy report(s) and then that fine line suddenly vanishes.

TxLady2
10-12-2011, 08:27 AM
That's what this defense team is trying to do: They are trying to O.D. the jury on all this confusing, complicated, hard-to-understand, too-much-math, too many milligrams (what's a dayam milligram, anyway?) and micrograms and nanograms, diazepam, lorazepam, medazipam, and I-don't-give-a-dayam, and diprivan, ativan and minivan (or whatever it is), and propofol, folderol, and flomax, and lorax, remax, and versed, and spikes, and oximeters, speedometers, and thermometers, and I'm so confused, I'm just gonna ignore this part.

======> That's what they're after -- just hoping the jury will just feel so unqualified and uneducated about all this pharmacology and toxicology and blabology that they will just skip that part in their deliberations. MJ's doctor sounded so nice, he must be okay. Not guilty. :maddening:

OMG! Thank you for this laugh so early in the morning!!! Post of the day!

That is a defense lawyer's mantra: If you can't persuade them with facts, then confuse them with bullsheet.
Flanagan gets on my nerves. Not too crazy about the other defense guy but Flanagan has that scowl on his face all the time, and he confuses himself, I think.
I don't believe for one second that MJ injected himself with propofol. I've had it several times, the second it hits the blood stream you're out. Gone. The syringe would still have been in his hand, and he would have been slumped, not laying out straight with his palms up. Nope, never happened.
Propofol is not a sleeping medication. It is an anesthetic. It knocks you out, but that is not sleep, that's a semi-coma. I never feel rested once I wake up, I just feel dopey.

TxLady2
10-12-2011, 08:34 AM
I know you did not intend for this to be funny, but I got a chuckle out of it. Especially minivan and lorax. :crazy:

You are correct, the defense is trying to confuse, to create that "reasonable doubt." It will be difficult regardless of how medically educated or not the jurors are because of the one big thing. Propofol.

I think most all of us, besides the medical professionals here, had no idea about propofol before MJ's death. At least I didn't. I then understood it is an anesthetic, something to be used for surgery only ===== what even the medically uneducated juror's understand.

So, defense would like it if they find Murray not guilty of manslaughter, but, it would be nice if they let him continue to practice medicine too. Confuse them with who gave it and why, maybe they will be so boggled that the manslaughter gets tossed out of their minds. Tell them MJ did it to himself, maybe they will just say "Aw heck with it, it is MJ's fault, let Murray continue to practice."

BUT, how can the jurors overlook the obvious. MJ could not give himself the propofol. MJ hired Murray to give it to him and to watch him while under propofol as he knew it could have "some" consequences. (This is why they explain this stuff to you and you sign forms about it in the hospital.) How can the jurors overlook the lorazapam (spelling?), the lack of proper monitoring equipment, the texts and phone calls, the one handed chest compressions, Murray not calling 911 and talking to the chef instead, and the list goes on.

I feel for the defense in that this is one heck of tough case to defend. I'm sure they have chosen jurors as wisely as possible, but if there is any little doubt, all the jurors have to do is request to review the evidence, the transcripts, the autopsy report(s) and then that fine line suddenly vanishes.

It's used for procedures where you have to be put to sleep for a few minutes. I always had a breathing tube when they gave it, plus a ton of monitoring equipment attached.
I think it is given in tiny increments, just enough to put you out and keep you out until the procedure is done. It is not given all at once.
I agree with everything else you said.

oceanblueeyes
10-12-2011, 09:10 AM
I noted one thing the defense tried to sway the jury with today. They acted all butt hurt that LE did not watch surveillance videos AFTER the death, because they implied that anyone could have come in and tampered with the doctor's medical bags. They tried to implicate the Jackson family in doing so, by pointing out that they found the pot in another suitcase in a closet. Thus by inference, they must have found this closet and looked inside of and messed with these medical bags too. I hope the jury does not accept that.

Didn't the Jacksons find the pot in the master bathroom in one of MJs travel kits?

IMO

oceanblueeyes
10-12-2011, 09:15 AM
It's used for procedures where you have to be put to sleep for a few minutes. I always had a breathing tube when they gave it, plus a ton of monitoring equipment attached.
I think it is given in tiny increments, just enough to put you out and keep you out until the procedure is done. It is not given all at once.
I agree with everything else you said.

Exactly. That is what the head ER doctor at UCLA hospital testified to.

She said you draw some up depending on the weight of the individual but you only release a little at a time and may not even need to use all the amount that was drawn up.

Of course she said the way they know if the patient needs more is because an anesthesiologist is there watching the patient along with the staff at all times.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
10-12-2011, 09:19 AM
OMG! Thank you for this laugh so early in the morning!!! Post of the day!

That is a defense lawyer's mantra: If you can't persuade them with facts, then confuse them with bullsheet.
Flanagan gets on my nerves. Not too crazy about the other defense guy but Flanagan has that scowl on his face all the time, and he confuses himself, I think.
I don't believe for one second that MJ injected himself with propofol. I've had it several times, the second it hits the blood stream you're out. Gone. The syringe would still have been in his hand, and he would have been slumped, not laying out straight with his palms up. Nope, never happened.
Propofol is not a sleeping medication. It is an anesthetic. It knocks you out, but that is not sleep, that's a semi-coma. I never feel rested once I wake up, I just feel dopey.

Michael would have to be a Houdini to be able to do all this and then die laid out straight out on his back with both palms up.

IMO

Thundar
10-12-2011, 10:04 AM
I caught part of one of the infotainment shows, can't remember which one, I was only half paying attention. Beth the blond lady actually made sense, she said that it looks like the defense has abandoned the MJ gave himself propofol and are now working with the idea that MJ took 8 lorazepam pills himself when Murray left the room for those 2 minutes. That would explain why defense was doing all those hypotheticals with 8 pills taken by mouth.

That thought went fleetingly through my mind when I was watching yesterday, but then I got bogged down in all the other "minivan" talk and forgot it. I will add my thanks for that gem too.

So anyway after she said that it made sense. Defense does appear to have abandoned the MJ gave himself propofol defense in favor of MJ took 8 lorazepam tablets by mouth defense.

Thundar
10-12-2011, 10:11 AM
Didn't the Jacksons find the pot in the master bathroom in one of MJs travel kits?

IMO

Yes they did, along with several empty cigarette boxes. I agree with Katy the defense would love the jury to take the leap and believe that some one else planted all that medical equipment in the other closet because of no security in place at the house. The only problem with that is Murray admitted on his LE interview tape that those bags were his along with the paltry amount of medical equipment found inside them. Hopefully the jury will see right through that tactic.

borndem
10-12-2011, 11:00 AM
I noted one thing the defense tried to sway the jury with today. They acted all butt hurt that LE did not watch surveillance videos AFTER the death, because they implied that anyone could have come in and tampered with the doctor's medical bags. They tried to implicate the Jackson family in doing so, by pointing out that they found the pot in another suitcase in a closet. Thus by inference, they must have found this closet and looked inside of and messed with these medical bags too. I hope the jury does not accept that.

IIRC, this suitcase with the pot, along with a couple of empty cigarette packs were found in Bedroom #1 -- MJ's actual b/r and his sanctum sanctorum -- the room where no one goes except MJ. B/R #2, the one where he died, was used as the "treatment room" (my words) and it was where CM usually slept, according to CM. (I certainly could be mistaken on all of this...)

But either way, you're right -- the DT was at least trying to sow another seed of doubt. (Necessary, IMO, since their gun has so far been shooting a buncha blanks...)

I'm with you, Katydid, I hope the jury is too sharp to fall for that -- seems to me that they would be by now, since those same ol' tactics surely have become all-too-familiar to them. Let's hope!!

LyndyLoo
10-12-2011, 11:17 AM
The only gastric stats were lidocaine at 1.6mg & propofol at 0.13mg. Nothing else was measured.

I do believe that was explained clearly, that those levels are consistent with "Post Mortem Re-Distribution"..and NOT as something ingested:maddening:..DT is blowing alot of smoke.."But I Can See Clearly Now" humm isnt that a song title? :floorlaugh:

borndem
10-12-2011, 11:33 AM
It's used for procedures where you have to be put to sleep for a few minutes. I always had a breathing tube when they gave it, plus a ton of monitoring equipment attached.
I think it is given in tiny increments, just enough to put you out and keep you out until the procedure is done. It is not given all at once.
I agree with everything else you said.

Yes, exactly. Here in NC, propofol is the anesthesia of choice to give to patients undergoing colonoscopies. I recently had one, and the nurse-anesthetist was there when she conked me out & there when she brought be back.

Very, very quick conk-out, no pain "felt" or remembered, quick back in, and it seems like you're been unconscious only for literally the blink of an eye. The procedure was done in essentially an OR -- crash cart, oxygen, doctor, nurse, and gas-passer within an arm's length of me. No grogginess or "hangover" or headache -- at least I had none. Wonderful stuff, and apparently very safe if done by someone who KNOWS WHAT HE OR SHE IS DOING. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon8.gif

azwriter
10-12-2011, 12:03 PM
Yes, exactly. Here in NC, propofol is the anesthesia of choice to give to patients undergoing colonoscopies. I recently had one, and the nurse-anesthetist was there when she conked me out & there when she brought be back.

Very, very quick conk-out, no pain "felt" or remembered, quick back in, and it seems like you're been unconscious only for literally the blink of an eye. The procedure was done in essentially an OR -- crash cart, oxygen, doctor, nurse, and gas-passer within an arm's length of me. No grogginess or "hangover" or headache -- at least I had none. Wonderful stuff, and apparently very safe if done by someone who KNOWS WHAT HE OR SHE IS DOING. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon8.gif

Right you are borndem. With so many procedures and surgeries being done on an "out patient" basis, propoful is the ideal sleep. The patient awakes and is "up and out" of the place in no time.

My daughter had it when she had her gall bladder removed. She was in and out all in one day. As things go now, I'm surprised they didn't perform her surgery out in the parking lot in the back of her van. I guess that's next when it comes to these "out patient" surgeries.
jmo

Crosby87
10-12-2011, 02:57 PM
That's what this defense team is trying to do: They are trying to O.D. the jury on all this confusing, complicated, hard-to-understand, too-much-math, too many milligrams (what's a dayam milligram, anyway?) and micrograms and nanograms, diazepam, lorazepam, medazipam, and I-don't-give-a-dayam, and diprivan, ativan and minivan (or whatever it is), and propofol, folderol, and flomax, and lorax, remax, and versed, and spikes, and oximeters, speedometers, and thermometers, and I'm so confused, I'm just gonna ignore this part.

======> That's what they're after -- just hoping the jury will just feel so unqualified and uneducated about all this pharmacology and toxicology and blabology that they will just skip that part in their deliberations. MJ's doctor sounded so nice, he must be okay. Not guilty. :maddening:

A bench trial is a trial held before a judge sitting without a jury.

Some defendants waive their right to a jury trial and choose a bench trial if they think the jury members lack the necessary knowledge and skills to render them a fair verdict.

In U.S. law, most civil trials are bench trials unless a party requests a jury. A criminal bench trial will only occur if the right to a jury trial is waived. In the case of a criminal trial, in most states the criminal defendant alone has the ability to waive the right to a jury.

In United States Federal criminal trials, jury trials are usually a matter of course and cannot be waived without certain requirements. Under the rules of Federal Criminal Procedure: If a defendant is entitled to a jury trial, the trial must be by jury unless: (1) the defendant waives a jury trial in writing; (2) the government consents; and (3) the court approves.

See Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure 23(a).

Bench trial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia