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Soulmagent
10-19-2011, 10:49 AM
What a long weekend the jury members had! I was starting to think Trial was never going to start again.


Links..


MajicAtl.
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TMZ
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My Fox
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News star.
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Click2Houston
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CNN
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LA LOCAL TIMES.
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Upstream
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ABC Local channel seven
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ITUNE link.
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Crosby87
10-19-2011, 11:00 AM
"A judge says the involuntary manslaughter trial of Michael Jackson's doctor will resume Wednesday and defense attorneys will begin their case on Friday.

The judge said Tuesday that if the prosecution's final witness finishes his testimony Wednesday, there will be no testimony on Thursday. Defense attorneys for Dr. Conrad Murray say their witnesses aren't available until Friday.

The defense plans to call 15 witnesses, including the head of AEG Live, the company that promoted Jackson's planned series of comeback concerts. Other witnesses will include police detectives who have not testified, character witnesses and experts.

Story: Could Dr. Murray be convicted and avoid jail?

Jurors haven't heard any testimony since Thursday due to the schedule of a witness and to give defense attorneys time to investigate newly conducted tests to determine how much of the sedative lorazepam was in Jackson's body.

Murray has pleaded not guilty."

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44959098/ns/today-entertainment/

outofstatelawyer
10-19-2011, 11:14 AM
"A judge says the involuntary manslaughter trial of Michael Jackson's doctor will resume Wednesday and defense attorneys will begin their case on Friday.

The judge said Tuesday that if the prosecution's final witness finishes his testimony Wednesday, there will be no testimony on Thursday. Defense attorneys for Dr. Conrad Murray say their witnesses aren't available until Friday.

The defense plans to call 15 witnesses, including the head of AEG Live, the company that promoted Jackson's planned series of comeback concerts. Other witnesses will include police detectives who have not testified, character witnesses and experts.



Geez. California has the ability to stretch what would be a three week trial anywhere else in the country to a 4 month affair. At least. This latest excuse seems particularly lame. Seems to me that most of the folks enumerated in that last paragraph would be available. I am always in awe at how much time is wasted on the left coast. Just sayin':maddening:

Talina
10-19-2011, 11:45 AM
Hello everyone. Looks like we're about ready to start the days testimony. I'll be here on and off throughout but might not get to post much. I have my granddaughter today and she, quite imperiously as a 4 yr old can do, insists that my attention be on her. :)

oceanblueeyes
10-19-2011, 11:47 AM
I am bringing my post reply over from the last thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by azwriter
kaRn, yours is a post I can agree with. MJ wanted the "milk." And I too believed he shopped till he found a doctor who would and could legally buy and stockpile the sleep drugs MJ wanted and was determined to have.

What father goes home at night and spends the night in a room no one is allowed to enter with a doctor there all night? This is very strange.

I believe Dr. Murry didn't keep records because all of this was to be MJ's secret. MJ didn't want records kept of what drugs he was given or the entire routine of him being put under in order to sleep. He played a fools game with a drug that should only be administered in a hospital setting with equipment to cover any emergency while he was under.

Certainly the doctor was wrong to leave the room but he also was wrong in allow himself to be hired for this weird procedure done behind closed doors in a person's private home.

I am sorry MJ died. I am a fan but I have to say in this situation of doctor/patient relationship, MJ wasn't the patient - he was the doctor's boss. It's pitiful for all concerned. JMO [QUOTE]


I imagine it is like a lot of parents who may make their bedroom off limits at times to their children while they are in there 'asleep' and I am sure the children thought he was sleeping. Why would they be up in the middle of the night anyway? He didn't even get home until after 1:00 am in the morning. They knew their father was rehearsing for his comeback tour.

I am not sure MJ wanted the 'milk' as in craved because Propofol is not addictive since it leaves the blood stream within a few short minutes but he did feel this was the only med that worked for him and really if he thought he had rested then that is what he felt. He told CM that nothing else worked.

They are beginning to do studies now where Propofol is being used as a sleep aide for people who suffer from terrible insomnia. I suppose it is no different than someone else who has insomnia and thinks only one drug works for them.

I don't believe MJ was the boss at all. He had always trusted doctors. Some he shouldn't have, imo but he did.

I think he knew the risks. He knew he had to have a licensed doctor administer this drug. That is why I think the theory of injecting it himself is a cockamamie lie CM made up in his faux statement. If so then after he got Murray to buy the drugs he would no longer need him and could just do it himself. That DT theory doesn't make sense but then the others don't either.

He also knew a doctor would have to monitor him. He told Nurse Lee he would be fine BECAUSE a doctor would be there monitoring him. What he could not foresee though was a doctor who was more interested in talking on the phone that day and didn't have his mind on monitoring him at all. So I do think MJ took necessary precautions or he would have just gotten a layperson to administer it to him after CM supplied it and frankly knowing how Murray deviated so grossly from the standard of care that day he may have been better off. A layperson sure couldn't have done any worse.

From what I have seen of Murray thus far I think he came across to MJ as someone who could handle everything and really there was nothing in his background that said he couldn't. He had been a doctor for almost 20 years and had three different practices. I have no doubt he came across as authoritative and full of himself. After all he wanted 5 million to start with but still was going to be paid 150K a month.

MJ was aware of what Murray had to do and so was Murray. Murray just didnt give a darn about his patient the morning he killed MJ.



IMO

borndem
10-19-2011, 11:57 AM
Hello everyone. Looks like we're about ready to start the days testimony. I'll be here on and off throughout but might not get to post much. I have my granddaughter today and she, quite imperiously as a 4 yr old can do, insists that my attention be on her. :)

Well, well, well, now we know where your priorities are, Grams!

How lucky you are to have a 4-year-old little girl whose priority today is YOU!! Enjoy each other! Time flies. She'll be asking for your car keys before you know it!!! http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

Crosby87
10-19-2011, 12:01 PM
FYI, Dr. Conrad Murray's trial will resume Wednesday morning at 11:45AM ET/8:45AM PT with the testimony of anesthesiologist Dr. Steven Shafer, the state's final witness. The defense case will begin on Friday.

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/18/get-ready-testimony-will-resume-tomorrow/

oceanblueeyes
10-19-2011, 12:04 PM
PETA Calls For Federal Investigation Into Conrad Murray Propofol Study On Beagle Dogs


By Alexis Tereszcuk - Radar Senior Reporter

The shocking news that Dr. Conrad Murray's defense team tested the drug Propofol on Beagle dogs to help with his case in the Michael Jackson death trial has outraged PETA so much that they're calling for a federal investigation, saying it would have caused "enormous suffering in the animals."

As RadarOnline.com exclusively reported, Dr. Murray's defense team commissioned a study testing the affects of the powerful anesthetic on Beagle dogs, to bolster their claim that Michael Jackson orally overdosed on the drug.

"I cannot imagine any use for this information at all," PETA's Vice President of Laboratory Kathy Guillermo exclusively told RadarOnline.com. "These tests cause enormous suffering in animals."


PETA (the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals organization), filed a complaint with the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) on Monday alleging "cruel drug toxicity tests on beagles commissioned by the defense team of Dr. Conrad Murray, the physician now on trial for his alleged role in Michael Jackson's death.

“PETA asserts that if attorneys from Flanagan, Unger, Grover & McCool did commission the tests for the drug propofol - the toxic effects of which have been extensively studied in dogs and humans - those tests were likely conducted in violation of the federal Animal Welfare Act's prohibition against tests on animals that duplicate previous experiments. PETA has filed a complaint with the State Bar of California as well."

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/10/conrad-murray-propofol-testing-beagles-peta-wants-federal-investigation

:furious::furious::furious:

oceanblueeyes
10-19-2011, 12:14 PM
I wonder what the hold up is?

imo

Amity
10-19-2011, 12:15 PM
Good Morning All!

Trial should be starting any time now and I am going to catch as much of it as I can.
I won't be here to read all of your excellent summaries, opinions, vents, etc. because, well....
life happens and I have other things to tend to.
But know that I will be back to read, catch up with all your posts as soon as I'm able.
Keep up the terrific work....Thank you all for being here.

peace9274
10-19-2011, 12:18 PM
I wonder what the hold up is?

imo


Can't someone knock on that door & tell them we've been here waiting?

peace9274
10-19-2011, 12:20 PM
Can't someone knock on that door & tell them we've been here waiting?


Actually, in my case, waiting 5 and a half days!

outofstatelawyer
10-19-2011, 12:21 PM
I wonder what the hold up is?

imo

Supposedly the Judge is ruling on an evidentiary issue. Because this is CA, these issues are not ruled on before the jury arrives, as they are in other jurisdictions. Anything to stretch out the trial; I don't know why taxpayers there put up with this nonsense.

Credence
10-19-2011, 12:21 PM
Court in session -- JP explaining delay

Dr. Steven Shafer resuming testimony on direct

Crosby87
10-19-2011, 12:25 PM
Geez. California has the ability to stretch what would be a three week trial anywhere else in the country to a 4 month affair. At least. This latest excuse seems particularly lame. Seems to me that most of the folks enumerated in that last paragraph would be available. I am always in awe at how much time is wasted on the left coast. Just sayin':maddening:

I wonder if the Jury appreciates the delays in testimony. They're all under a great deal of stress attempting to absorb new and complex information in a short amount of time so having unexpected and extended breaks give them time to de-stress and allow their mind to relax. JMO

I hear the trial has resumed.

oceanblueeyes
10-19-2011, 12:26 PM
Can't someone knock on that door & tell them we've been here waiting?

:floorlaugh::seeya:

Credence
10-19-2011, 12:40 PM
*Dr. Steven Shafer has developed mathematical models to determine sedation levels and how much drug should be used for various drugs; propofol, lidocaine, lorazepam, midazolam.
*His research has formed foundation for this field of study / pharmacokinetics
*Has published more than 50 book chapters
*Has written more than 160 papers, articles
*Speaks on the subject nationally and internationally
*Professor of Anesthesiology -- trains other scientists
*First and foremost he is an MD - practices anesthesiology
*Is testifying pro-bono - does it because expert for another side in case he was involved in made misrepresentations -- and does not want to profit
*Specifically for this case:
-public / reputation of physicians - need to restore confidence that doctors put patients first - so patients are not afraid because of how anesthesia was administered in this case
-patients should not have fear - wants patients to understand that when administered by people who know what they are doing -- has nothing to do with how administered in this case

Mid morning break -- need some matters addressed -- will be longer than usual

outofstatelawyer
10-19-2011, 12:48 PM
I wonder if the Jury appreciates the delays in testimony. They're all under a great deal of stress attempting to absorb new and complex information in a short amount of time so having unexpected and extended breaks give them time to de-stress and allow their mind to relax. JMO

I hear the trial has resumed.

I doubt it. I actually served on a jury a few years back. It was a civil case, but it was ten years old. We spent half our time sitting in the jury room while evidentiary issues were argued, and it ticked us off no end. It is a waste of the time of twelve people. Now they are already taking a mid morning break; oy vey.

Thundar
10-19-2011, 12:48 PM
Oh my gosh it's mid morning break already. Did they not just start? They didn't even get to anything good yet.

Credence
10-19-2011, 12:52 PM
Oh my gosh it's mid morning break already. Did they not just start? They didn't even get to anything good yet.

Seems there may be some issues re: Shafer's testimony because Walgren made a comment that he should stop now due to previous discussions between Judge and attorneys grr

peace9274
10-19-2011, 12:55 PM
Dr Shafer said: "Everyday I get patients who ask me, 'Are you going to give me the drug that killed Michael Jackson?' "

Dr Shafer said he is testifying pro bono because, due to the Conrad Murray/MJ Case, people have become very
fearful of doctors and specifically propofol and that he wants to enforce that propofol is really a very safe, very
good, very effective medication, used by anesthesiologists... and when used appropriately & in the proper hospital setting.

Thundar
10-19-2011, 12:59 PM
Dr Shafer said: "Everyday I get patients who ask me, 'Are you going to give me the drug that killed Michael Jackson?' "

People have become very fearful of this medication that is really a very safe, very good, very effective medication, used by anesthesiologists...
(when used appropriately & in hospital hospital setting).

I would probably ask that question if I was having surgery too. Maybe not phrased that way, but I would inquire into what anesthetic they were going to use now when before I wouldn"t have had any idea of what any of them were.

oceanblueeyes
10-19-2011, 01:02 PM
They are setting up a video.

It shows someone being administered Propofol and going into a cardiac arrest.

It is just a reenactment.

They go through all stages including Dr. Shafer first is talking patient.

IMO

Credence
10-19-2011, 01:04 PM
I got a kick out of Dr. Shafer saying that experts who get paid to testify do make misrepresentations. I wonder if Dr. White for DT is being paid? LOL

Talina
10-19-2011, 01:04 PM
Aha. Now we know what the delay is from and why the long morning break.

Jean Casaras just said this morning the prosecution was showing the judge a video they want to show in court. 10 to 15 min video of a patient getting propofol, going under, having a cardiac arrest and how everything was handled, etc.

Def objected saying it's inflammatory and prejudicial. Judge watched the video and said it is very relevant to this case and the jury can see it but he wants some areas of it edited out. That is what is being done now while the court room is being set up properly for the video to be played.

Credence
10-19-2011, 01:05 PM
They are setting up a video.

It shows someone being administered Propofol and going into a cardiac arrest.

It is just a reenactment.

They go through all stages including Dr. Shafer first is talking patient.

IMO

Where?

Crosby87
10-19-2011, 01:06 PM
I doubt it. I actually served on a jury a few years back. It was a civil case, but it was ten years old. We spent half our time sitting in the jury room while evidentiary issues were argued, and it ticked us off no end. It is a waste of the time of twelve people. Now they are already taking a mid morning break; oy vey.

The Jury has been present to hear ongoing testimony from the witnesses and I don’t recall many times when they have been excused and had to sit in the Jury room for a considerable length of time while evidentiary issues were argued.

It doesn’t happen very often based on what I’ve seen of the trial.

JMO

oceanblueeyes
10-19-2011, 01:07 PM
Aha. Now we know what the delay is from and why the long morning break.

Jean Casaras just said this morning the prosecution was showing the judge a video they want to show in court. 10 to 15 min video of a patient getting propofol, going under, having a cardiac arrest and how everything was handled, etc.

Def objected saying it's inflammatory and prejudicial. Judge watched the video and said it is very relevant to this case and the jury can see it but he wants some areas of it edited out. That is what is being done now while the court room is being set up properly for the video to be played.

Beth said that the DT has had this video two weeks before trial began.:furious: She said the Judge was upset with them that they are now wanting them to edit it when they had ample time to do that long ago so the jury wouldn't be sitting out there waiting.

IMO

Talina
10-19-2011, 01:08 PM
Beth said that the DT has had this video two weeks before trial began.:furious: She said the Judge was upset with them that they are now wanting them to edit it when they had ample time to do that long ago so the jury wouldn't be sitting out there waiting.

IMO

I understand why they can't know, but it's things like this that I sure wish the jury could be told.

Credence
10-19-2011, 01:10 PM
Beth said that the DT has had this video two weeks before trial began.:furious: She said the Judge was upset with them that they are now wanting them to edit it when they had ample time to do that long ago so the jury wouldn't be sitting out there waiting.

IMO

Wow - ridiculous. Seems the DT has been the reason for many delays including postponement of the trial period. Stuff they should have been prepared for too. I wish the jury knew all of this.

Isabelle
10-19-2011, 01:10 PM
Dr Shafer said: "Everyday I get patients who ask me, 'Are you going to give me the drug that killed Michael Jackson?' "

Dr Shafer said he is testifying pro bono because, due to the Conrad Murray/MJ Case, people have become very
fearful of doctors and specifically propofol and that he wants to enforce that propofol is really a very safe, very
good, very effective medication, used by anesthesiologists... and when used appropriately & in the proper hospital setting.

I saw Dr. Shafer's testimony on this. No anesthesiologist or nurse anesthetist want to induce anesthesia in a person who is highly anxious, since the release of hormones (adrenalin) can mask untoward effects of the anesthesia and cause major problems.

Dr. Shafer has an impressive CV.

oceanblueeyes
10-19-2011, 01:11 PM
The Jury has been present to hear ongoing testimony from the witnesses and I don’t recall many times when they have been excused and had to sit in the Jury room for a considerable length of time while evidentiary issues were argued.

It doesn’t happen very often based on what I’ve seen of the trial.

JMO

You are right this jury has been there all the time except when the court was dark due to Dr. Shafer's dad dying and because the state tested the lorazepam and the DT said they needed more time.

It really has clipped right along with full days 98% of the time.

IMO

Isabelle
10-19-2011, 01:12 PM
I would probably ask that question if I was having surgery too. Maybe not phrased that way, but I would inquire into what anesthetic they were going to use now when before I wouldn"t have had any idea of what any of them were.


And you would trust them completely wouldn't you. Trust is a major issue and is very important when giving care to people.

oceanblueeyes
10-19-2011, 01:12 PM
Wow - ridiculous. Seems the DT has been the reason for many delays including postponement of the trial period. Stuff they should have been prepared for too. I wish the jury knew all of this.

Yes, I wish they did know but they wont be told.

The DT should have gotten what they wanted edited out before the trial even began.

IMO

borndem
10-19-2011, 01:17 PM
Can't someone knock on that door & tell them we've been here waiting?


Hey!! We're all a bunch of addicts here, Jury Foreperson. We're drooling and hungry, Let's get this show on the road.....http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Credence
10-19-2011, 01:18 PM
Yes, I wish they did know but they wont be told.

The DT should have gotten what they wanted edited out before the trial even began.

IMO

Yes I understand why they shouldn't know -- just annoying. As you say no reason they couldn't have done this before -- even as late as the past couple of days during the hearings when court has not been in session

oceanblueeyes
10-19-2011, 01:19 PM
Where?

They are going to show the video to the jury once it is edited.

It has Dr. Shafer in it...so I guess he is the one that put it together.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
10-19-2011, 01:21 PM
Yes I understand why they shouldn't know -- just annoying. As you say no reason they couldn't have done this before -- even as late as the past couple of days during the hearings when court has not been in session

Exactly. They have met while the jury has been off. More than ample time to protest this video and let JP rule on it then so it would already be edited and ready to go today for the jury.

I know Judge Pastor and Walgren has to get so tired of these last minute complaints coming from the DT.

IMO

Credence
10-19-2011, 01:23 PM
They are going to show the video to the jury once it is edited.

It has Dr. Shafer in it...so I guess he is the one that put it together.

IMO

I saw Talina's post after I asked you where -- thanks. I had the TV on IS but muted while watching live stream on PC and forgot to unmute it after break was announced.

EPfan
10-19-2011, 01:30 PM
Dr Shafer said: "Everyday I get patients who ask me, 'Are you going to give me the drug that killed Michael Jackson?' "

Dr Shafer said he is testifying pro bono because, due to the Conrad Murray/MJ Case, people have become very
fearful of doctors and specifically propofol and that he wants to enforce that propofol is really a very safe, very
good, very effective medication, used by anesthesiologists... and when used appropriately & in the proper hospital setting.

pro bono? OK, but he is getting notoriety just for being involved and testifying on this case. People who have had surjury, may be familiar with propofol. If his patients are questioning him about HIM using propofol on them, then they don't trust him very much. Is it just me. I would be sitting there thinking (if I were on the jury) do you think I am that gullible and ignorant!!!JMOO.

JusticeMustPrevail
10-19-2011, 01:34 PM
pro bono? OK, but he is getting notoriety just for being involved and testifying on this case. People who have had surjury, may be familiar with propofol. If his patients are questioning him about HIM using propofol on them, then they don't trust him very much. Is it just me. I would be sitting there thinking (if I were on the jury) do you think I am that gullible and ignorant!!!JMOO.


I would tend to think that it is the drug that is not trusted.

I do not believe he needed this case for him to be known by his fellow doctors. He was to get an award this past weekend from the anesthesiologist group, unfortunately his father died.

Talina
10-19-2011, 01:38 PM
pro bono? OK, but he is getting notoriety just for being involved and testifying on this case. People who have had surjury, may be familiar with propofol. If his patients are questioning him about HIM using propofol on them, then they don't trust him very much. Is it just me. I would be sitting there thinking (if I were on the jury) do you think I am that gullible and ignorant!!!JMOO.

I doubt this doctor needs any more notoriety than what he already has achieved. I find nothing at all directed at him personally about being asked the question he says he is asked now since MJ's death. Sounds very reasonable to me and equally as reasonable for him to feel compelled to do what he is doing.

As far as pro bono expertise for this trial, he said he has not been paid for any type of testimony for over 10 years and refuses to accept any. He doesn't want to be questioned that his testimony is bought and just feels for him, it is the right thing to do. (paraphrasing) So, it's not that he is after notoriety for this trial and due to that has forgone being paid. Nonsense.

IMO

borndem
10-19-2011, 01:39 PM
*Dr. Steven Shafer has developed mathematical models to determine sedation levels and how much drug should be used for various drugs; propofol, lidocaine, lorazepam, midazolam.
*His research has formed foundation for this field of study / pharmacokinetics
*Has published more than 50 book chapters
*Has written more than 160 papers, articles
*Speaks on the subject nationally and internationally
*Professor of Anesthesiology -- trains other scientists
*First and foremost he is an MD - practices anesthesiology
*Is testifying pro-bono - does it because expert for another side in case he was involved in made misrepresentations -- and does not want to profit
*Specifically for this case:
-public / reputation of physicians - need to restore confidence that doctors put patients first - so patients are not afraid because of how anesthesia was administered in this case
-patients should not have fear - wants patients to understand that when administered by people who know what they are doing -- has nothing to do with how administered in this case

Mid morning break -- need some matters addressed -- will be longer than usual

They are setting up for a video of a mock operating room operation using propofol where the patient goes into cardiac arrest and what is done by people "who know what they are doing," to quote Dr. Shafer in earlier testimony this morning. (And that statement by him was a piercing arrow from this witness who does not accept any money to testify and hasn't for IIRC, 10 years or so.) What a purrrfect witness. Santa Claus came early for the PT. Ho ho ho.

That demo is, I think, why things were late getting started this am -- the defense was having a hissy fit (as we call it here on the southern east coast) about this video coming in. Apparently, the DT has known about this demo since 3 weeks before the trial began, but anyway....

So, go get your opera glasses, sports fans, we're getting ready to watch a mini-movie on how-to-do-it-right.

And yes, a picture is worth 1000 milligrams of words....

[I wonder if Dr. White is testifying and assisting the DT for free?]

Crosby87
10-19-2011, 01:42 PM
I saw Dr. Shafer's testimony on this. No anesthesiologist or nurse anesthetist want to induce anesthesia in a person who is highly anxious, since the release of hormones (adrenalin) can mask untoward effects of the anesthesia and cause major problems.

Dr. Shafer has an impressive CV.

I think MJ was in a severe state of paranoia Wednesday.

I wonder if the anxiety attack MJ had at rehearsals was escalated by 'stage fright'.

MJ's performances are electric and being exposed to a high amount of electrical currents at rehearsals could also have an adverse effect on his heart rate when combined with the powerful chemicals that he ingested. Maybe his cells released a toxic amount of electrical impulses Wednesday which his body couldn't defend itself against.

If they rehearsed in a confined space the atmosphere would be highly charged and I'm not sure how Michael could have effectively released this charge from his body but I'm sure the electrical charge would make him extremely hyperactive.

JMO

oceanblueeyes
10-19-2011, 01:43 PM
pro bono? OK, but he is getting notoriety just for being involved and testifying on this case. People who have had surjury, may be familiar with propofol. If his patients are questioning him about HIM using propofol on them, then they don't trust him very much. Is it just me. I would be sitting there thinking (if I were on the jury) do you think I am that gullible and ignorant!!!JMOO.

I don't think this exemplary doctor needs notoriety in his expert field.

No, because CM killed MJ with this drug it has left people unsure about its safety. I think it is good that they ask and the doctor can reassure them it is a safe drug when done correctly.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
10-19-2011, 01:45 PM
I doubt this doctor needs any more notoriety than what he already has achieved. I find nothing at all directed at him personally about being asked the question he says he is asked now since MJ's death. Sounds very reasonable to me and equally as reasonable for him to feel compelled to do what he is doing.

As far as pro bono expertise for this trial, he said he has not been paid for any type of testimony for over 10 years and refuses to accept any. He doesn't want to be questioned that his testimony is bought and just feels for him, it is the right thing to do. (paraphrasing) So, it's not that he is after notoriety for this trial and due to that has forgone being paid. Nonsense.

IMO

Excellent Post!

JusticeMustPrevail
10-19-2011, 01:45 PM
I think MJ was in a severe state of paranoia Wednesday.

I wonder if the anxiety attack MJ had at rehearsals was caused by 'stage fright'.

MJ's performances are electric and being exposed to a high amount of electrical currents at rehearsals could also cause an adverse reaction in his body in combination with the powerful chemicals he ingested.

If they rehearsed in a confined space the atmosphere would be highly charged and I'm not sure how Michael could have effectively released this charge from his body but I'm sure the electrical charge would make him extremely hyperactive.

JMO

That theory won't fly either. They rehearsed on the stage, it was not limited space.

oceanblueeyes
10-19-2011, 01:47 PM
I would tend to think that it is the drug that is not trusted.

I do not believe he needed this case for him to be known by his fellow doctors. He was to get an award this past weekend from the anesthesiologist group, unfortunately his father died.

Yes, a lifetime achievement award.

IMO

Credence
10-19-2011, 01:48 PM
pro bono? OK, but he is getting notoriety just for being involved and testifying on this case. People who have had surjury, may be familiar with propofol. If his patients are questioning him about HIM using propofol on them, then they don't trust him very much. Is it just me. I would be sitting there thinking (if I were on the jury) do you think I am that gullible and ignorant!!!JMOO.

This doctor needs no notoriety. He has enough due to his expertise on the matter. If I were on the jury would have taken in how some experts who get paid make misrepresentations depending on what side they are testifying for. I wonder if Dr. White is being paid?

Asking whether propofol is the same drug given to MJ; I can understand why people may not think the drug is safe but as Dr. Shafer said it is a very safe drug when administered by those who know what they are doing. Obviously he implied that Dr. Murray had no idea what he was doing and thus caused MJ's death. That is what I would take away as a juror

drip~drop
10-19-2011, 01:56 PM
I saw Dr. Shafer's testimony on this. No anesthesiologist or nurse anesthetist want to induce anesthesia in a person who is highly anxious, since the release of hormones (adrenalin) can mask untoward effects of the anesthesia and cause major problems.

Dr. Shafer has an impressive CV.

Exactly. And that is why pre-op meds are administrated to patients.

Crosby87
10-19-2011, 01:57 PM
Definition of IV - in the medical field it means intravenous
- in the legal field it means involuntary as in 'involuntary manslaughter'

oceanblueeyes
10-19-2011, 01:57 PM
Oh good he is going to let him see the actual evidence.

Good call.

Credence
10-19-2011, 01:57 PM
I love visuals. Hope he gets to the spike marking on top.

ETA: Yes -- he did.

Crosby87
10-19-2011, 02:01 PM
Definitions of IV:

-In medical field it means intra-venous,
-In the legal field it means involuntary, as in “involuntary manslaughter”

drip~drop
10-19-2011, 02:02 PM
I would tend to think that it is the drug that is not trusted.

I do not believe he needed this case for him to be known by his fellow doctors. He was to get an award this past weekend from the anesthesiologist group, unfortunately his father died.

May his Father rest in peace and be so proud of his son!:heartbeat:

Credence
10-19-2011, 02:03 PM
I can certainly visualize how he stuck that propofol bottle in the bag - spiked it - left the clamp open and it all dripped in due to carelessness of CM's part. Just hope that Walgren drives home the tubing from the bag to the Y connector is missing.

Talina
10-19-2011, 02:07 PM
Ok, folks. The lesson here is that there is no way MJ could have prepared the syringe with the propofol. At least to me that is what I'm thinking.

katydid23
10-19-2011, 02:15 PM
Here comes the video.

borndem
10-19-2011, 02:15 PM
Ummm....the video is starting now....hummmm, what's that sound, folks???

Oh my, it's the sound of the rubber hitting the road... and possibly that percussion we're hearing is CM's heart beating very fast...

katydid23
10-19-2011, 02:16 PM
Showing the proper and correct amount of eqiupment necessary for the proper administration of Proprofol.

Thundar
10-19-2011, 02:30 PM
While I am watching this video out of the corner of my eye I noticed another thing. Did they find any disposable gloves at the scene? Another thing Murray was not too fussy about perhaps??

Talina
10-19-2011, 02:33 PM
While I am watching this video out of the corner of my eye I noticed another thing. Did they find any disposable gloves at the scene? Another thing Murray was not too fussy about perhaps??

Yes, they did find gloves.

Credence
10-19-2011, 02:34 PM
Some of you may have seen this already but this is the state's theory as to what happened:

Several days after Jackson's death, law enforcement found numerous bottles of Propofol in that closet, including a large, empty, 100ml bottle with a large tear in the rubber stopper. The tear could be critical evidence. There are two ways of administering Propofol. The first is sticking a syringe into the rubber stopper, withdrawing a small amount and then injecting it into the tubing. The second way is by using a spike -- which creates a tear in the rubber stop -- and connects the entire bottle of Propofol to the tube.

Dr. Dombrowski says if a spike is used to connect the bottle directly to the IV tube, the doctor must use an infusion pump to regulate the flow of Propofol -- otherwise, the patient could easily OD. There was no infusion pump found in Jackson's home.

http://www.tmz.com/2010/03/01/coverup-michael-jackson-death-propofol-dr-conrad-murray-lapd-iv/

Thundar
10-19-2011, 02:35 PM
Now that infusion machine they are showing for propofol is more in line with what I imagine a person would need to administer this type if drug.

Is that Dr. White they are showing behind defense playing on a laptop? If he is looking for arguments against this testimony he is probably out of luck.

Thundar
10-19-2011, 02:39 PM
Written informed consent not verbal is a big deal here I am thinking.

peace9274
10-19-2011, 02:49 PM
First thing said in an In-service for Documentation:
"Document. Document. Document."

Second thing said: "If it wasn't documented, it was NOT done / checked!"

I love this guy!!!

CarolinaMoon
10-19-2011, 02:51 PM
I've been entranced by Dr. Shafer's testimony and video. I've had 3 surgeries since MJ died, and I've always asked if propofol is going to be used. I haven't mentioned Michael Jackson, though. I've never gotten a straight answer even when I say I know it is a good medication. I could have insisted, I suppose, but I was hungry and wanted to get the surgery over with.

I would imagine that Dr. Shafer gets that question all the time since Dr. Murray mis-administered the drug. After watching most of the video, I feel a lot better about the anaestesiologist (sp??) I well understand why he felt he needed this public forum.

katydid23
10-19-2011, 03:01 PM
There are so many commercial breaks on HLN that I cannot get a good read on how this video is going over with the jury. I hope it isn't as disjointed as it feels to me now.

Credence
10-19-2011, 03:01 PM
Excellent demo and explanation by Dr. Shafer. I cannot imagine another experienced anesthesiologist disputing what he has said.

See you all after the break

SAgal
10-19-2011, 03:10 PM
I couldn't believe how many commericial breaks HLN took during this important Video testimony. Very annoying, IMO

KEVINinTO
10-19-2011, 03:13 PM
There are so many commercial breaks on HLN that I cannot get a good read on how this video is going over with the jury. I hope it isn't as disjointed as it feels to me now.

You should be watching the TMZ live feed - there are no commercials and much higher quality.

www.tmz.com

Talina
10-19-2011, 03:23 PM
There are so many commercial breaks on HLN that I cannot get a good read on how this video is going over with the jury. I hope it isn't as disjointed as it feels to me now.

I am watching online on TMZ and also have HLN on tv. The uninterrupted TMZ showing of the video testimony didn't feel disjointed at all to me.

Did you see the part where the doctor was talking about how the anesthesiologist is constantly taking notes down in the chart throughout the whole process and he looked over at the jurors, smiled and said just like all of you are right now.

Jean Casaras said just now on HLN that the jurors were riveted to this video and testimony. She said some were sitting on the edges of their seats watching it and many of them were constantly taking notes.

borndem
10-19-2011, 03:35 PM
I would probably ask that question if I was having surgery too. Maybe not phrased that way, but I would inquire into what anesthetic they were going to use now when before I wouldn"t have had any idea of what any of them were.

A month ago or so, my DH was having the Informed Consent session with the Gastro-enterologist and the anesthesiologist who were to perform the colonoscopy and the anesthesia. When DH heard that they were gonna administer good ol' Propofol, that's what he asked, "Is that the drug that killed MJ?" and the anesthesiologist explained all about it. I'm sure that same question has indeed been asked thousands of times by now during I.Consent sessions.

katydid23
10-19-2011, 03:38 PM
I am watching online on TMZ and also have HLN on tv. The uninterrupted TMZ showing of the video testimony didn't feel disjointed at all to me.

Did you see the part where the doctor was talking about how the anesthesiologist is constantly taking notes down in the chart throughout the whole process and he looked over at the jurors, smiled and said just like all of you are right now.

Jean Casaras said just now on HLN that the jurors were riveted to this video and testimony. She said some were sitting on the edges of their seats watching it and many of them were constantly taking notes.

THANK YOU. That makes me feel better. I will try and switch over to the TMZ stream because HLN cuts away too often.

Talina
10-19-2011, 03:41 PM
I don't see how Dr. Shafer is going to finish his direct and cross examination today. I bet we have court tomorrow, at least a partial day.

borndem
10-19-2011, 03:58 PM
pro bono? OK, but he is getting notoriety just for being involved and testifying on this case. People who have had surjury, may be familiar with propofol. If his patients are questioning him about HIM using propofol on them, then they don't trust him very much. Is it just me. I would be sitting there thinking (if I were on the jury) do you think I am that gullible and ignorant!!!JMOO.

Although an anesthesiologist is the "sleep" doctor (some call them "gas passers" for obvious reasons) during a surgical procedure or a Code Blue, patients don't ever really have a doctor/patient relationship with an anesthesiologist -- unless someone has surgery fairly often.

In my experience, I met with the anesthesiologist for about 15 minutes about a week or so prior to my brain surgery and I haven't seen him since -- which is good. He was a neat guy, very likable. I remember what he looked like, his name and his manner, but what we had that day was not a real relationship. We were together for about 4 hours during my surgery, but thanks to him, I don't remember him at all during that time!

borndem
10-19-2011, 04:19 PM
Exactly. And that is why pre-op meds are administrated to patients.

Oh yesssssssssshhh they are, and they are just glooooorioussss. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif After that, it's kinda like, "Propofol, scmopofol, bring it on you cute little doctor, you."

Can you tell I grew up in the 60's?? http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon11.gif

borndem
10-19-2011, 04:26 PM
While I am watching this video out of the corner of my eye I noticed another thing. Did they find any disposable gloves at the scene? Another thing Murray was not too fussy about perhaps??


Good point, Thundar. I don't recall anything said about disposable gloves. Hmmmm.

Talina
10-19-2011, 04:27 PM
Good point, Thundar. I don't recall anything said about disposable gloves. Hmmmm.

Yes, there were gloves. Remember there was some of them found on the floor in the bedroom. I can't remember if they found the box of gloves or not.

Crosby87
10-19-2011, 04:32 PM
Wedneday afternoon court session resumed precisely at 1:30 pm.

Crosby87
10-19-2011, 04:54 PM
In the LAPD interview, Dr Murray said MJ hip joint slid out of the socket and Dr. S said they give patients whose joints need to be reset Propofol for pain management didn't he?

Once the joint is reset, the limb is usually quite sore and it takes several days before a patient has full range of motion.

Dr. Murray didn't say he gave MJ Propofol before he treated his hip and according to Dr. Murray, Michael realigned his hip himself.

JMO

Credence
10-19-2011, 04:55 PM
When a bottle of propofol is opened the remainder not used must be thrown out within 6 hours. It his Dr. Shafer's opinion is that the entire 100ml/mg bottle was intended to be used or otherwise you would be throwing out a large amount each time opened.

katydid23
10-19-2011, 04:56 PM
I was wondering the same thing, about whether MJ had eaten or drank anything in the previous hours. I would assume he had water at least during that grueling rehearsal. So aspiration is a big concern.

Credence
10-19-2011, 04:57 PM
No infusion pump -- without it the rate of delivery cannot be precisely controlled. Because of that lack of control; overdose rate is high and in this setting can be death; In light of those facts it was an egregious violation of code.

Pulseoximeter used completely and utterly inappropriate . No alarm -- not used for continuous monitoring.

Credence
10-19-2011, 05:02 PM
I was wondering the same thing, about whether MJ had eaten or drank anything in the previous hours. I would assume he had water at least during that grueling rehearsal. So aspiration is a big concern.

Doesn't seem CM was concerned because I don't recall him saying if he asked MJ what he had to drink or eat.

Credence
10-19-2011, 05:05 PM
Wow a drop in blood can create exaggerated response to meds but CM did not use a blood pressure cuff so no way of knowing what his blood pressure was and he was dehydrated.

Blood pressure is ALWAYS monitored when propofol or IV meds are used.

Another egregious violation

In a box, in a closet, in another room

Thundar
10-19-2011, 05:16 PM
Well there you go again, record keeping is not optional. Wonder if defense will ask this witness if that record keeping is just so he would know what is going on, and that Murray did not need record keeping cause you know he only had that one patient.

Credence
10-19-2011, 05:17 PM
Without medical records family members are denied their rights to see what happened to their loved one if they cannot view the treatment. It is also violation of CA state law

ETA: Love the fact that he brought up no valid reason for not keeping medical records and the notion that it has to do with patient privacy is utterly false.

borndem
10-19-2011, 05:39 PM
I keep noticing Flanagan looking over to White almost continuously thru Shafer's testimony for the PT.

peace9274
10-19-2011, 05:48 PM
At the last job I worked, a psych hospital, there were many times that a patient was paced on "1 to 1 status".
Even when a patient was asleep and not on any sedations, or even when a patient was awake and may just be reading...

... NEVER ever ever was the staff, that was assigned this 1 to 1 with the patient (and sometimes it was specified that staff
must be arms length at all times from the patient... & sometimes it could just be that staff must be able to see patient at all times.......

allowed to answer his/her cell phone, to text, or even read while on the 1 to 1 assignment... regardless of patient being awake or in deep sleep.

That staff member would be fired on the spot, right then!

peace9274
10-19-2011, 05:53 PM
Well there you go again, record keeping is not optional. Wonder if defense will ask this witness if that record keeping is just so he would know what is going on, and that Murray did not need record keeping cause you know he only had that one patient.
BBM

That's right. It's mandatory and the reason why there are so many Documentation Classes/Inservices.
There have been at every hospital I've worked. There's one at orientation when first hired and then yearly
or every couple years.

borndem
10-19-2011, 06:08 PM
Written informed consent not verbal is a big deal here I am thinking.

"If it's not written, it's not done," was said by the cardiologist, IIRC. (I could be mistaken, but one of the State's witnesses said it.)

Yep, Thundar, it's a real big deal. I have a vision in my head of CM's practicing licenses with wings, just flying away from him forever.

Plus, no I. C. denies the patient/pt's family autonomy in selecting how he wants treatment to go and to be able to make an intelligent decision about it. Harmful, dangerous, very risky, or safe, healthy, etc. Which is the best for me?

This "patient autonomy" business may come back & bite CM in the arse. It sounds like a big deal to me, and some members of the Jackson family are sitting right there in court. Maybe that's all a part of Wrongful Death -- I have no idea.

Plus, I really liked his analogy of Dr/patient vs employee/employer relationships. Ooooh, calls to mind salary, yes?? Yes, sir, yes, sir, whatever you want, sir.

This guy is amazing. We need to clone him. Very good witness. And at his expense. Yes, his Dad has got to be proud of him.

peace9274
10-19-2011, 06:14 PM
]"If it's not written, it's not done," was said by the cardiologist, IIRC. (I could be mistaken, but one of the State's witnesses said it.)[/b]

Yep, Thundar, it's a real big deal. I have a vision in my head of CM's practicing licenses with wings, just flying away from him forever.

Plus, no I. C. denies the patient/pt's family autonomy in selecting how he wants treatment to go and to be able to make an intelligent decision about it. Harmful, dangerous, very risky, or safe, healthy, etc. Which is the best for me?

This "patient autonomy" business may come back & bite CM in the arse. It sounds like a big deal to me, and some members of the Jackson family are sitting right there in court. Maybe that's all a part of Wrongful Death -- I have no idea.

Plus, I really liked his analogy of Dr/patient vs employee/employer relationships. Ooooh, calls to mind salary, yes?? Yes, sir, yes, sir, whatever you want, sir.

This guy is amazing. We need to clone him. Very good witness. And at his expense. Yes, his Dad has got to be proud of him.

BBM

I'll take credit for saying that same thing, here several times. :)

That saying (bolded by me,above) is drilled into everyone's head who
works in a medical facility or even at a patient's home (home care).

I agree that Dr Shafer is a fantastic, awesome witness!!

octobermoon
10-19-2011, 06:30 PM
Thanks to all! I love this witness. So passionate and kind.

borndem
10-19-2011, 06:36 PM
When Dr. Shafer said that he thought CM was "clueless" in what to do to save MJ (this was the discussion re raising MJ's legs) -- ennyway -- the adjective "clueless" seemed to pizz CM off quite a bit. I saw fire in his eyes instead of the steady arrogant gaze.

oceanblueeyes
10-19-2011, 06:38 PM
OMG Dr. Shafer said he thinks CM gave the reversal agent for the lorazepam because he knew he had given him way more of it than 4 mg.

IMO

azwriter
10-19-2011, 06:49 PM
Geez. California has the ability to stretch what would be a three week trial anywhere else in the country to a 4 month affair. At least. This latest excuse seems particularly lame. Seems to me that most of the folks enumerated in that last paragraph would be available. I am always in awe at how much time is wasted on the left coast. Just sayin':maddening:

Hey, we here on the West Coast have time to waste cause we are hours behind the Right Coast. :lol:

just saying

octobermoon
10-19-2011, 07:08 PM
wow! Putting the patient first. Declaration of Geniva?
We put patients first, when CM put MJ under Propofol he put himself first not MJ....
all paraphased. WOW !

octobermoon
10-19-2011, 07:10 PM
I wish he could give the closing argument. Or maybe he just did.

borndem
10-19-2011, 07:15 PM
:whiteflag:Surrender, Dorothy!! :truce:

CarolinaMoon
10-19-2011, 07:16 PM
He transfixed me all afternoon. KTLA was commenting that there should have been many objections from the defense. It was also opined that perhaps the defense has some negative information to bring up at cross.

Cross should be VERY interesting!

Credence
10-19-2011, 07:17 PM
This doctor was the final nail in CM's coffin. Not sure what the defense can do with his testimony. His last comments were very passionate also.

oceanblueeyes
10-19-2011, 07:24 PM
What a way to end the state's case.:woohoo:

Dr. Shafer kicked CMs butt at the end.

And his is right Conrad Murray put himself first!

MONEY and GREED and the need to protect what he had done was what mattered to CM.

IMO

azwriter
10-19-2011, 07:37 PM
I am bringing my post reply over from the last thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by azwriter
kaRn, yours is a post I can agree with. MJ wanted the "milk." And I too believed he shopped till he found a doctor who would and could legally buy and stockpile the sleep drugs MJ wanted and was determined to have.

What father goes home at night and spends the night in a room no one is allowed to enter with a doctor there all night? This is very strange.

I believe Dr. Murry didn't keep records because all of this was to be MJ's secret. MJ didn't want records kept of what drugs he was given or the entire routine of him being put under in order to sleep. He played a fools game with a drug that should only be administered in a hospital setting with equipment to cover any emergency while he was under.

Certainly the doctor was wrong to leave the room but he also was wrong in allow himself to be hired for this weird procedure done behind closed doors in a person's private home.

I am sorry MJ died. I am a fan but I have to say in this situation of doctor/patient relationship, MJ wasn't the patient - he was the doctor's boss. It's pitiful for all concerned. JMO [QUOTE]


I imagine it is like a lot of parents who may make their bedroom off limits at times to their children while they are in there 'asleep' and I am sure the children thought he was sleeping. Why would they be up in the middle of the night anyway? He didn't even get home until after 1:00 am in the morning. They knew their father was rehearsing for his comeback tour.

I am not sure MJ wanted the 'milk' as in craved because Propofol is not addictive since it leaves the blood stream within a few short minutes but he did feel this was the only med that worked for him and really if he thought he had rested then that is what he felt. He told CM that nothing else worked.

They are beginning to do studies now where Propofol is being used as a sleep aide for people who suffer from terrible insomnia. I suppose it is no different than someone else who has insomnia and thinks only one drug works for them.

I don't believe MJ was the boss at all. He had always trusted doctors. Some he shouldn't have, imo but he did.

I think he knew the risks. He knew he had to have a licensed doctor administer this drug. That is why I think the theory of injecting it himself is a cockamamie lie CM made up in his faux statement. If so then after he got Murray to buy the drugs he would no longer need him and could just do it himself. That DT theory doesn't make sense but then the others don't either.

He also knew a doctor would have to monitor him. He told Nurse Lee he would be fine BECAUSE a doctor would be there monitoring him. What he could not foresee though was a doctor who was more interested in talking on the phone that day and didn't have his mind on monitoring him at all. So I do think MJ took necessary precautions or he would have just gotten a layperson to administer it to him after CM supplied it and frankly knowing how Murray deviated so grossly from the standard of care that day he may have been better off. A layperson sure couldn't have done any worse.

From what I have seen of Murray thus far I think he came across to MJ as someone who could handle everything and really there was nothing in his background that said he couldn't. He had been a doctor for almost 20 years and had three different practices. I have no doubt he came across as authoritative and full of himself. After all he wanted 5 million to start with but still was going to be paid 150K a month.

MJ was aware of what Murray had to do and so was Murray. Murray just didnt give a darn about his patient the morning he killed MJ.


IMO

Just wanted to add, that if, as you claim, MJ was aware of what needed to be done by Dr. Murray, he would have known there needed to be more medical monitering done than just having a doctor present in the room when he was under an anesthetic drug.

I don't believe Michael was fully aware of the risks he was taking using the drug in his bedroom without proper medical assistance, record keeping and stand-by methods, personnel, and machines in case something went wrong. And, from the looks of things, Murray didn't know either. Or did know and was willing to cut corners in order to keep his high paying position within MJ world.

If MJ absolutely knew and insisted that this was the ONLY medication that allowed him to sleep, why didn't he go to a hospital every evening and have it administered under safer circumstances? Because he knew no such situation would be accomidated within a medical facility.

While I agree Dr. Murray was at fault for MJ's death, I can't believe he didn't give a darn about MJ. After all, once MJ died, the pay checks would stop too. If money was the Doctor's motivation, he would give a darn that his patient stay alive in order keep those payments coming.

jmo

peace9274
10-19-2011, 09:01 PM
I had to leave at 6:45 EST and just returned to see what all I missed.
Not much I guess. Did they say whether court will be in session tomorrow?

TIA

oceanblueeyes
10-19-2011, 09:57 PM
[quote=oceanblueeyes;7252416]I am bringing my post reply over from the last thread.

[B]Quote:
Originally Posted by azwriter

Just wanted to add, that if, as you claim, MJ was aware of what needed to be done by Dr. Murray, he would have known there needed to be more medical monitoring done than just having a doctor present in the room when he was under an anesthetic drug.

I don't believe Michael was fully aware of the risks he was taking using the drug in his bedroom without proper medical assistance, record keeping and stand-by methods, personnel, and machines in case something went wrong. And, from the looks of things, Murray didn't know either. Or did know and was willing to cut corners in order to keep his high paying position within MJ world.

If MJ absolutely knew and insisted that this was the ONLY medication that allowed him to sleep, why didn't he go to a hospital every evening and have it administered under safer circumstances? Because he knew no such situation would be accommodated within a medical facility.

While I agree Dr. Murray was at fault for MJ's death, I can't believe he didn't give a darn about MJ. After all, once MJ died, the pay checks would stop too. If money was the Doctor's motivation, he would give a darn that his patient stay alive in order keep those payments coming.

jmo

Wanting the checks to keep rolling in isn't really caring about a patient's wellbeing. It is putting greed over the best interest of a patient. It is obvious to me he didn't care about MJ that day or he would have never left him alone at the most critical time still under sedation in the first place. He played fast and loose and MJ paid the ultimate price for CMs gross deviations from the standard of care. Of course he didn't want his cash cow dead but he did nothing to protect that interest either or his patient's life. His mind was totally distracted on other 'things':innocent: unknowing to MJ who was under sedation.

With Dr. Shafer's testimony today we learned MJ actually could have been saved if CM had just tilted his head back and made sure his tongue wasnt obstructing his airway. He did have an abu-bag in the bedroom that would force air in the lungs but he failed to even use it and it was right there. If he had jumped into action immediately and done those things and called for help immediately MJ would be alive today.

The problem Murray did have though is MJ was long dead before Murray even came back in the room to realize it, imo. That was why MJ was cool to the touch and his eyes fixed, dilated and dry and the EMTs arrived in 4 minutes after being called.

So MJ could have been saved. Of course Murray would have to be monitoring him at the time he stopped breathing and that didn't happen even though he lied to the ER doctor and said he witnessed the arrest.

One of the strangest thing to me is Murray states in his statement that MJ told him nothing else worked but the propofol but yet in the next breath CM says MJ was willing to try all these other meds to help him sleep...even meditate. That just does not make sense.

I think the reason why Murray didnt keep medical records were done in order to protect himself.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
10-19-2011, 10:08 PM
I had to leave at 6:45 EST and just returned to see what all I missed.
Not much I guess. Did they say whether court will be in session tomorrow?

TIA

Yes, they will be back at 8:45 in the morning.

I think the state is through with their direct and it will be cross examination tomorrow.

imo

borndem
10-20-2011, 12:03 AM
Whew, what a day for the State!

Whew, what a day for CM and his defenders! I hope they have plenty of midnight oil.

Two phrases by the amazing, down-to-earth, respectful and eloquent Dr. Shafer keep rolling in my mind: "by someone who knows what he's doing" and "I think Dr Murray was clueless," those are probably not perfectly exact quotes, but the bolded words certainly were accurate words. He wasn't being spiteful or mean -- he was just putting it in plain language.

Ooh, what sensible and damning testimony -- and seems to me, every juror was probably able to follow what he said even though he was walking all of us through pretty technical medical terminology. Oh yes, all of the State's doctors were very, very good, but they did save the best for last.

And once more, I agree with you, oceanblueeyes, that MJ was good & dead when CM returned to check on him & he knew that he was beyond help. Now to clean up and blame it on the only other witness, and he cannot testify. And CM may still be wondering what it was that actually killed his patient -- which drug and how and why?? In spite of the obvious truth spoken in the courtroom today.

So all that was left was to put it in CYA gear and make things sound as good as possible WRT his own actions. Dead men tell no tales....

And we lost a brother, a son, a father, an uncle, a friend, and a dedicated and a bit eccentric and huge talent and entertainer. So sad and PREVENTABLE. This crime must be punished.

shgrbkr
10-20-2011, 01:29 AM
Murray may have misled MJ as to what monitoring really meant. We don't know. From what I have learned about Conrad Murray suggests that he may have been willing to misrepresent what sort of monitoring would be necessary just so he could keep his "job" with MJ. Whatever amount of "rubbing elbows" CM wanted to do does not, under any circumstance alleviate him from acting responsibly and professionally. I find it appalling that anyone would insinuate that MJ was in part responsible. It may very well be the case that MJ would have doctor shopped until he found someone willing to take risks, but it remains ANY and ALL physicians' professional and moral responsibility to, as the witness stated today, "Put the patient first," and WE as consumers, should expect 100% of physicians to abide by that. We do not know what sort of education MJ had regarding the propofol infusion. All he could possibly know from experience is that it makes him go to sleep and up until his death, he always woke up from it. This speaks to the lack of informed consent. Also to suggest that MJ was giving himself propofol is ridiculous. People go out pretty darn quick once they get it and I don't believe MJ would have been able to stay awake that long.

HAD MJ been properly monitored, even in the home, the signs indicating that he was in trouble would have been apparent long before he died and steps could have been taken to save him. Instead, not being monitored by an EKG, SpO2, Resp rate, and BP, it was too late. I think CM should have been charged with 2nd degree murder as it was not intentional. JMO though folks.

azwriter
10-20-2011, 02:37 AM
Whew, what a day for the State!

Whew, what a day for CM and his defenders! I hope they have plenty of midnight oil.

Two phrases by the amazing, down-to-earth, respectful and eloquent Dr. Shafer keep rolling in my mind: "by someone who knows what he's doing" and "I think Dr Murray was clueless," those are probably not perfectly exact quotes, but the bolded words certainly were accurate words. He wasn't being spiteful or mean -- he was just putting it in plain language.

Ooh, what sensible and damning testimony -- and seems to me, every juror was probably able to follow what he said even though he was walking all of us through pretty technical medical terminology. Oh yes, all of the State's doctors were very, very good, but they did save the best for last.

And once more, I agree with you, oceanblueeyes, that MJ was good & dead when CM returned to check on him & he knew that he was beyond help. Now to clean up and blame it on the only other witness, and he cannot testify. And CM may still be wondering what it was that actually killed his patient -- which drug and how and why?? In spite of the obvious truth spoken in the courtroom today.

So all that was left was to put it in CYA gear and make things sound as good as possible WRT his own actions. Dead men tell no tales....

And we lost a brother, a son, a father, an uncle, a friend, and a dedicated and a bit eccentric and huge talent and entertainer. So sad and PREVENTABLE. This crime must be punished.

I'm in that same camp too that MJ was dead when the doctor returned to the bedroom/treatment room. And, Murray was no doubt in an extreme panic.

Just think it was probably just as Dr. Shafer explained in his testimony today that most patients being put under, even in a strict medical setting stop breathing when first put under. But, according to him that condition is noticed immediately through the equipment and the doctor being focused on the patient. The simple step as a chin lift he demonstrated to get the tongue out the way could have saved MJ if Murray had been at his side the entire time. And none of us would have been the wiser. And MJ would be performing now.

Dr. Shafer's testimony and the video was an excellent lesson being shown in court today. I would guess Murray was sitting there thinking "If only...."

I find that Michael's untimely death is even sadder now after hearing Dr. Shafer's explaination today.
It's just a shame.

just my O

azwriter
10-20-2011, 02:39 AM
[quote=azwriter;7255142]


Snipped for space by me.

I think the reason why Murray didnt keep medical records were done in order to protect himself.
IMO

However, not keeping records didn't protect the doctor, it only made him more suspect.
jmO

oceanblueeyes
10-20-2011, 08:38 AM
[quote=oceanblueeyes;7255773]

However, not keeping records didn't protect the doctor, it only made him more suspect.
jmO

Morning AZ.

Now that is certainly true but just like so many others he never thought it would be uncovered what he was actually doing.

When he suddenly let his patient die then what he did and did not do became exposed.

Talina
10-20-2011, 08:48 AM
Good morning all...everyone have their tylenol ready for Flanagan's cross examination of Dr. Shafer?

oceanblueeyes
10-20-2011, 09:02 AM
Whew, what a day for the State!

Whew, what a day for CM and his defenders! I hope they have plenty of midnight oil.

Two phrases by the amazing, down-to-earth, respectful and eloquent Dr. Shafer keep rolling in my mind: "by someone who knows what he's doing" and "I think Dr Murray was clueless," those are probably not perfectly exact quotes, but the bolded words certainly were accurate words. He wasn't being spiteful or mean -- he was just putting it in plain language.

Ooh, what sensible and damning testimony -- and seems to me, every juror was probably able to follow what he said even though he was walking all of us through pretty technical medical terminology. Oh yes, all of the State's doctors were very, very good, but they did save the best for last.

And once more, I agree with you, oceanblueeyes, that MJ was good & dead when CM returned to check on him & he knew that he was beyond help. Now to clean up and blame it on the only other witness, and he cannot testify. And CM may still be wondering what it was that actually killed his patient -- which drug and how and why?? In spite of the obvious truth spoken in the courtroom today.

So all that was left was to put it in CYA gear and make things sound as good as possible WRT his own actions. Dead men tell no tales....

And we lost a brother, a son, a father, an uncle, a friend, and a dedicated and a bit eccentric and huge talent and entertainer. So sad and PREVENTABLE. This crime must be punished.

Morning Borndem!:seeya:

I think most of us had envisioned that there was no meds that could have counteracted the propofol and MJ was bound to die. At least that was the way I understood it that there was no reversal agent.

But yesterday I learned that is not really true and all the doctor needs to do to offset the propofol is make sure oxygen is continuously pumped into the lungs and it brings the patient out from under it and stabilizes the patient. Dr. Shafer said propofol lowers the oxygen level so maintaining good air in the lungs is essential. With fully oxygenated lungs the patient will not go into respiratory arrest and that is really what happened to MJ and of course then cardiac arrest followed.

The thought that Murray had an abu-bag but didn't use it breaks my heart for MJ and his family. I didn't realize until yesterday how this death was so preventable.

If only Murray had monitored him closely and saw him in distress he could have immediately used the abu-bag. This is a case filled with "If only he had done"

I also believe Murray is undercharged for what he did. This is just not gross recklessness and neglect......it goes way beyond that into the realm of unbelievable and all done by one doctor.

Murray singlehandedly ripped so many hopes and dreams away. Not just for Michael but all those that love him and his fans who waited with such excited anticipation to see him perform again.

So I feel even sadder today to know all of this. It just shouldn't have happened. No doctor should be this careless, clueless and self centered. We all can lose when that happens although I want to convince myself there isn't another doctor in the world that would act as Murray has done.

I guess we are in store for a long cross examination today. I am sure Dr. Shafer is ready.

IMO

borndem
10-20-2011, 09:06 AM
Murray may have misled MJ as to what monitoring really meant. We don't know. From what I have learned about Conrad Murray suggests that he may have been willing to misrepresent what sort of monitoring would be necessary just so he could keep his "job" with MJ. Whatever amount of "rubbing elbows" CM wanted to do does not, under any circumstance alleviate him from acting responsibly and professionally. I find it appalling that anyone would insinuate that MJ was in part responsible. It may very well be the case that MJ would have doctor shopped until he found someone willing to take risks, but it remains ANY and ALL physicians' professional and moral responsibility to, as the witness stated today, "Put the patient first," and WE as consumers, should expect 100% of physicians to abide by that. We do not know what sort of education MJ had regarding the propofol infusion. All he could possibly know from experience is that it makes him go to sleep and up until his death, he always woke up from it. This speaks to the lack of informed consent. Also to suggest that MJ was giving himself propofol is ridiculous. People go out pretty darn quick once they get it and I don't believe MJ would have been able to stay awake that long.

HAD MJ been properly monitored, even in the home, the signs indicating that he was in trouble would have been apparent long before he died and steps could have been taken to save him. Instead, not being monitored by an EKG, SpO2, Resp rate, and BP, it was too late. I think CM should have been charged with 2nd degree murder as it was not intentional. JMO though folks.

ITA, shgrbkr, and very well-said. 100%.



Let's put on our seatbelts for today's testimony!

I'm sure Dr. Shafer will be steady as a rock. And I think he will handle anything they throw at him. And <sigh> I think it will be Flanagan.

TxLady2
10-20-2011, 09:07 AM
pro bono? OK, but he is getting notoriety just for being involved and testifying on this case. People who have had surjury, may be familiar with propofol. If his patients are questioning him about HIM using propofol on them, then they don't trust him very much. Is it just me. I would be sitting there thinking (if I were on the jury) do you think I am that gullible and ignorant!!!JMOO.


This trial is giving propofol a bad reputation, and that's sad because it is actually very safe, as long as it's administered by a trained professional in a surgical setting and with all the proper equipment to handle emergencies.
That's the whole point of this testimony... Dr. Murray broke all the rules of proper procedure and then abandoned Michael right after he gave it.
I heard JVM yesterday say that she wouldn't want to be given propofol from now on, and that was a very stupid thing to say, IMO. It's not the drug itself that is the problem, it's Dr. Murray and his blatant disregard for his patient's safety and well being.

oceanblueeyes
10-20-2011, 09:12 AM
Good morning all...everyone have their tylenol ready for Flanagan's cross examination of Dr. Shafer?

Morning Talina! I am taking Motrin.:floorlaugh:

Yesterday morning I went out to feed my cats and one got under my feet and I tried to get off of his foot quickly and lost my balance and down I went.:floorlaugh: Four of my ribs on the left hit a piece of lawn equipment and I am so sore I cant hardly move. What a sleepless night. :banghead: Btw/the cat is just fine. lol

So having to deal with that and listening to Flanagan on cross may be too much for me to take!:floorlaugh:

IMO

Talina
10-20-2011, 09:20 AM
Morning Talina! I am taking Motrin.:floorlaugh:

Yesterday morning I went out to feed my cats and one got under my feet and I tried to get off of his foot quickly and lost my balance and down I went.:floorlaugh: Four of my ribs on the left hit a piece of lawn equipment and I am so sore I cant hardly move. What a sleepless night. :banghead: Btw/the cat is just fine. lol

So having to deal with that and listening to Flanagan on cross may be too much for me to take!:floorlaugh:

IMO

Oh my word. I hope it's not too bad and you recover quickly.

My cat always runs in front of me and stops to look to see if I am following him. (as if that is the only reason I got up to do something). He has almost tripped me so many times I have lost count.

My vet says "well he almost has you trained...he's still working on it". :floorlaugh:

borndem
10-20-2011, 09:25 AM
Good morning all...everyone have their tylenol ready for Flanagan's cross examination of Dr. Shafer?



:eek: : :ohwow: ::noooo: : :raincloud: : :no: : :ohwow: : :anguish:

TxLady2
10-20-2011, 09:45 AM
I'm getting the feeling that Dr. Murray thought he could get away with it, he never thought Michael would be in danger. After all, he had given it before and Michael always woke up, until that fateful day.
I do not believe Michael was unaware of the danger, but that's not the point. Surely Dr. Murray was aware and he should have refused it under those conditions. He played Russian roulette one too many times and lost.
Dr. Shafer was a very good witness, as were the other two doctors who testified last week. I don't think the defense team has a prayer of shaking this guy, they didn't with the other two either. Right now I think they know they've lost this case. Can't wait to see the cross, it's going to be interesting.
What saddens me the most is not only the millions of fans Michael had but his family, especially those 3 precious kids who loved him so much. His death was senseless.. it did not have to happen!
And yes, Dr. Murray should have been charged with 2nd degree murder.

oceanblueeyes
10-20-2011, 09:52 AM
Oh my word. I hope it's not too bad and you recover quickly.

My cat always runs in front of me and stops to look to see if I am following him. (as if that is the only reason I got up to do something). He has almost tripped me so many times I have lost count.

My vet says "well he almost has you trained...he's still working on it". :floorlaugh:

Well obviously I need more training.:floorlaugh: Even though we have had Shy Baby for 7 years.

I dont think my ribs are broken but they sure are awfully black and bruised and I have a lot of swelling. I have been using ice packs.

peace9274
10-20-2011, 11:43 AM
Morning Talina! I am taking Motrin.:floorlaugh:

Yesterday morning I went out to feed my cats and one got under my feet and I tried to get off of his foot quickly and lost my balance and down I went.:floorlaugh: Four of my ribs on the left hit a piece of lawn equipment and I am so sore I cant hardly move. What a sleepless night. :banghead: Btw/the cat is just fine. lol

So having to deal with that and listening to Flanagan on cross may be too much for me to take!:floorlaugh:

IMO

((((Hugs))))) (but not too tightly) for you!

I'm so sorry about your accident.
I hope you didn't break any of your ribs.
But, even if bruised in that area, it is still extremely painful and difficult to take deep breaths.

I hope you have a speedy recovery.

At least you have an excuse to lie on the couch and watch all the drama that's about to take place today. :)

borndem
10-20-2011, 12:35 PM
Although we all know Dr. Shafer is a human being living on this planet with the rest of us mortals, let me say that the angel wings he has are invisible to our naked eyes -- but he HAS them my fellow WS'ers, I am sure of it! :angel::cloud9::angel2:

Also notice JP -- he is having a difficult time not smiling during this testimony (or it could just be my imagination, but I don't think so...http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif )

borndem
10-20-2011, 12:51 PM
Morning Talina! I am taking Motrin.:floorlaugh:

Yesterday morning I went out to feed my cats and one got under my feet and I tried to get off of his foot quickly and lost my balance and down I went.:floorlaugh: Four of my ribs on the left hit a piece of lawn equipment and I am so sore I cant hardly move. What a sleepless night. :banghead: Btw/the cat is just fine. lol

So having to deal with that and listening to Flanagan on cross may be too much for me to take!:floorlaugh:

IMO

So sorry to hear that your cat (I'm a big cat-lover) tripped and made you fall -- they can be so sneaky!!! J/K

I've certainly been-there-done-that with ribs and it hurts to do anything for about 10 days http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif. All you have to do, however, to avoid rib pain is these few little things:

Don't laugh, don't take a deep breath, don't sneeze, don't cough, don't bend down, don't reach up, don't scratch your back, don't wash your hair (reaching up to your noggin hurts), don't move from side to side, don't get hiccups, don't iron clothes, don't run a vacuum, don't sweep, don't mop, don't dust, don't make a bed, don't drive, don't do laundry, don't load/unload a dishwasher, don't cook, don't lift anything, =====> just sit on a comfortable sofa and watch TV. You'll feel much better soon. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

octobermoon
10-20-2011, 01:01 PM
So sorry to hear that your cat (I'm a big cat-lover) tripped and made you fall -- they can be so sneaky!!! J/K

I've certainly been-there-done-that with ribs and it hurts to do anything for about 10 days http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif. All you have to do, however, to avoid rib pain is these few little things:

Don't laugh, don't take a deep breath, don't sneeze, don't cough, don't bend down, don't reach up, don't scratch your back, don't wash your hair (reaching up to your noggin hurts), don't move from side to side, don't get hiccups, don't iron clothes, don't run a vacuum, don't sweep, don't mop, don't dust, don't make a bed, don't drive, don't do laundry, don't load/unload a dishwasher, don't cook, don't lift anything, =====> just sit on a comfortable sofa and watch TV. You'll feel much better soon. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

wonderful advice! LOL

borndem
10-20-2011, 01:16 PM
During mid-morning break, Jane C. on In Session says the jury is "riveted" to Shafer's testimony. She says that normally, a battle between the drug experts is "when we lose them," i. e. the drug talk is so technical and dry, etc., it loses the jury's interest. But not with this man, she states. They are interested and listening to every word he says. (Wings flapping, IMO. Ahh, this good, good physician.)http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

azwriter
10-20-2011, 06:54 PM
This trial is giving propofol a bad reputation, and that's sad because it is actually very safe, as long as it's administered by a trained professional in a surgical setting and with all the proper equipment to handle emergencies.
That's the whole point of this testimony... Dr. Murray broke all the rules of proper procedure and then abandoned Michael right after he gave it.
I heard JVM yesterday say that she wouldn't want to be given propofol from now on, and that was a very stupid thing to say, IMO. It's not the drug itself that is the problem, it's Dr. Murray and his blatant disregard for his patient's safety and well being.

You said it all TxLady. The drug is safe. I've had it for surgery and I'm still here. But I had it used in a hospital setting. Which the doctor clearly outlined in his testimony that propofol isn't for a one-man-show used in a bedroom of a home. Murray was way out of his league leaving MJ at any time for even a second.

About Jane. I agree, she certainly didn't need to spout off negativitly about the drug. But, she's never been known to be tactful. And, I wish she would stop yelling.
Enjoy your posts.

just my O