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Mountain_Kat
10-20-2011, 01:46 PM
Also looking at the video of inside the house, I notice what appears to be a large vitamin bottle, and a prescription med bottle with a childproof cap.

Not shocking...just saying it's there.

norest4thewicked
10-20-2011, 01:48 PM
:borgsmile: you guys aren't sleuthing the teen are you? I didn't think so...

it is a :nono:

((this lands at random))

Not I! Trying to follow the rules...haha

Paige SC
10-20-2011, 01:49 PM
Slideshow of Baby Lisa at Birthday Party

http://www.kctv5.com/slideshow?widgetId=37672&slideshowImageId=25&redirected=true

thank you! The slide show isn't working (for me) but is there an article that lays out the date, attendance, whereabouts of that specific party?

norest4thewicked
10-20-2011, 01:49 PM
I know the OD story is old and perhaps worn out - but - Just throwing this out there.....

Benedryl. Has cropped up in other infant fatalities. Specifically there was a day care situation where DCP was giving infants/toddler multiple doses a day of benedryl leading to suppression of respiration/respiratory distress. That is more likely IMO than a cold medicine OD situation.

I am not sure if this is the place for it, but I also think that it is highly likely that the neighbor never saw LI, and that is why LE immediately looked at the mom.

I TOTALLY agree with you and WELCOME to Websleuths! I hope you love it here! :)

goldringstx
10-20-2011, 01:50 PM
BBM just thinking out loud here but what if Lisa was in her swing to help put her to sleep so early. I know my kids were all bigger for their age, so I quite using a baby swing early on. Also if there were blinds on the window, I can see where something could go horribly wrong.

But if the parent's description of her was accurate, she was over the weight limit of 25 lbs.

Miziree
10-20-2011, 01:50 PM
Its possible I missed it but I looked in the TL (at every link) and never saw reference to that. If you run across it please let me know. Thanks!!

http://www.kctv5.com/slideshow?widgetid=37993

this is the slide show and it says below it they were at a party for one of the boys..

Mountain_Kat
10-20-2011, 01:51 PM
Were you see that??? Please show me I have looked Hi and low and all I can find were Computer room and her bedroom,

Around the :58 mark.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/lisa-irwin-a-look-inside-the-home-26863873.html#crsl=%252Fvideo%252Fus-15749625%252Flisa-irwin-a-look-inside-the-home-26863873.html

21merc7
10-20-2011, 01:52 PM
thank you! The slide show isn't working (for me) but is there an article that lays out the date, attendance, whereabouts of that specific party?

It takes a while to load. You can just google: Baby Lisa Irwin at birthday party

A few links will come up, maybe one will work better for your computer that way.

Paige SC
10-20-2011, 01:53 PM
http://www.kctv5.com/slideshow?widgetid=37993

this is the slide show and it says below it they were at a party for one of the boys..


THANK YOU! So the birthday party was held the day before she went missing? Did the party take place at their home and I wonder who all was present?

MaconMom
10-20-2011, 01:54 PM
But if the parent's description of her was accurate, she was over the weight limit of 25 lbs.

We used our baby swing when our daughter was well over the weight limit (I think it was 25lbs as well). Ours still swung, it was just slower because she was heavy. DD loved that thing, and we used it until the motor eventually gave up. :(

Wanting2Help
10-20-2011, 01:55 PM
I wonder if they may have found something in the woods (I think the wording was they thought they found something but it turned out to be nothing) that led them to say they were looking for something new in the house that wasn't there before?

What if they found an area in the woods that was recently dug (there is a rumor that a body found was found in a shallow grave) and they didn't find anything in it? Maybe they were looking for whatever they thought had been there?

Dewey2Me1MoThyme
10-20-2011, 01:55 PM
With all the focus on DB and JI, I hope they are interviewing, and checking backgrounds of those who were at the party, next door to the party, any suspicious vehicles in the area of the party. Did anyone stop by momentarily, asking directions, meter readers, salesmen, etc. It would not be unreasonable IMHO that someone saw Lisa in the days leading up to her disappearance and stalked the family.

Mountain_Kat
10-20-2011, 01:56 PM
:borgsmile: you guys aren't sleuthing the teen are you? I didn't think so...

it is a :nono:

((this lands at random))

I don't even know the gender of this teen, so obviously I haven't sleuthed him or her. :floorlaugh:

Rallihanna
10-20-2011, 01:58 PM
I just don't see the intruder theory holding water. There are too many other "convenient" things that just don't make sense. Would LOVE to be wrong, but I just don't think that parents who truly wanted to find their alive daughter would stop cooperating with LE.

Codger
10-20-2011, 01:59 PM
Is it possible that the neighbor told LE that she noticed something new in the house (new rug, new piece of furniture, new paint, etc.) that night, that wasn't there the last time she was over? That's why they subpoenad the raw video, to corroborate what the neighbor said, and based on this information they were able to get a search warrant for the house?

Just thinking out loud. I initially thought maybe the neighbor was involved, but now I think that DB's recent media interviews contradict what the neighbor told LE, hence the new flurry of activity focusing more than ever on the parents (search of the neighbor's home, collection of evidence from the neighbor's house, search warrant for Irwin home, etc.)

For example, I don't think DB and the neighbor drank that night because I believe DB was buying the wine for her brother (separate transactions, handed him receipt and change, he avoided any physical contact with the wine, etc. - do we know how old he is?)

BBM - Exactly my thought too!

IIRC the brother is age 20. I don't know the laws in MO, but here, if you even have a minor in the vehicle with you, it is illegal to purchase alcohol, certainly if they are in the store with you and :doh: hand you money at the register. Here, every person with you has to (or can be asked to) show valid id, no id = no sale. But, I'm not sure what MO law looks like. Also, our law says if the 20 yo is driving that is "illegal transportation". That transaction made me cringe, because of our laws... here, the cashier would face jail time + the store huge fines + with more than one offense would lose their license to sell alcohol. Once they get reinstated if it should happen again, the location loses the license forever - IOW if the store sells to new owners they can never get a license to sell alcohol due to prior issues. We're almost zero tolerance, so I had to assume MO is much more relaxed, but I dunno. Anyone local that has worked retail or knows a cashier or store owner?
JMO of course.

PS - If you all would kindly pause posting for 30 minutes I might actually be able to catch up before midnight this time. Thank you. :tongue:

In da Middle
10-20-2011, 01:59 PM
Thanks IDM.
Do you know what the approximate height would be from ground to rear window? Approximate distance of camper to residence? Is it possible that the camper was a bit of a stepping stone- either entering or exiting the residence? TIA.
http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt126/jerseygirl12345/ViewfromNewChopper-backofirwinHome.jpgIf you look at this pic, you can see how far away from the house it was. They probably wouldn't have parked it any closer as it would be in the way of slider door and 1 garage door.
If it is like an old camper we had when I was little, no way would you risk standing on the roof kinda flimsy after all these years! And it sure would not be quiet.

Kimmer
10-20-2011, 02:00 PM
Are there any searches going on today?

nursebeeme
10-20-2011, 02:00 PM
Are there any searches going on today?

not that I have seen Kimmer... very quiet today

indepmo
10-20-2011, 02:04 PM
I see a lot of talk about the house and layout today. Early on, I searched kiva to see if any permits had been pulled on the house over the past several years. Came up empty handed.

KathyJ
10-20-2011, 02:04 PM
Here is one theory and don't know if it has been mentioned, threads are moving so fast it's hard to keep up.
Of course this is my opinion only. Baby is sick and not feeling well and we ALL know how cranky a poor baby can be while not feeling well. Mom puts her to bed, decides to indulge in adult time that she feels she deserves. Baby interrupts "adult time" by fussing and or crying. We know how babies act when sick. Frustration sets in and aggravation. Baby possibly shaken to death (by accident) IMO there is plenty of time for that to happen. Especially if there is alcohol involved --it makes your feelings more intensified...there was plenty of time for this to happen and plenty of time to hide things and plenty of time to stage a scene. Again just my opinion

plaidmom
10-20-2011, 02:05 PM
http://www.kctv5.com/slideshow?widgetid=37993

this is the slide show and it says below it they were at a party for one of the boys..

Thank you!

If those are the actual last known photos of Lisa I wish the media would start using those (they could fuzz out the relatives' faces). She looks much different there than she does in all the "baby" photos we've seen 100 times. More like a toddler. I love her little jeans. :)

twiggles
10-20-2011, 02:07 PM
But if the parent's description of her was accurate, she was over the weight limit of 25 lbs.

My kids were all above average weight as well so had to take the swing down early. Could she have been climbing out of the swing, or in for that matter? Just a thought

norest4thewicked
10-20-2011, 02:07 PM
not that I have seen Kimmer... very quiet today

I bet it's not quiet at the PD...:)

davehead21
10-20-2011, 02:08 PM
BBM - Exactly my thought too!

IIRC the brother is age 20. I don't know the laws in MO, but here, if you even have a minor in the vehicle with you, it is illegal to purchase alcohol, certainly if they are in the store with you and :doh: hand you money at the register. Here, every person with you has to (or can be asked to) show valid id, no id = no sale. But, I'm not sure what MO law looks like. Also, our law says if the 20 yo is driving that is "illegal transportation". That transaction made me cringe, because of our laws... here, the cashier would face jail time + the store huge fines + with more than one offense would lose their license to sell alcohol. Once they get reinstated if it should happen again, the location loses the license forever - IOW if the store sells to new owners they can never get a license to sell alcohol due to prior issues. We're almost zero tolerance, so I had to assume MO is much more relaxed, but I dunno. Anyone local that has worked retail or knows a cashier or store owner?
JMO of course.

PS - If you all would kindly pause posting for 30 minutes I might actually be able to catch up before midnight this time. Thank you. :tongue:

It is not MO state law that, when buying booze, anyone with you has to show their ID. However, this is the policy of some stores (Walmart is one of them). If someone with you isn't 21 or left their ID in the car, you are not allowed to buy the booze.

marycarney
10-20-2011, 02:10 PM
But if the parent's description of her was accurate, she was over the weight limit of 25 lbs.

Not even the weight limit - but TEN MONTHS is kind of old (developmentally) to keep a child in a swing - they (at least all of mine did) try and climb out after about eight months of age, making it dangerous to use, regardless of weight.

Dewey2Me1MoThyme
10-20-2011, 02:10 PM
I just don't see the intruder theory holding water. There are too many other "convenient" things that just don't make sense. Would LOVE to be wrong, but I just don't think that parents who truly wanted to find their alive daughter would stop cooperating with LE.

Many years ago I was accused of a crime I did not commit, I asked for a LD test and was given one six months later. For those 6 long months I felt guilty by the way I was treated by friends, co-workers and those familiar with the case. I couldn't hardly leave my home without one LEO following me waiting to get me on J-walking or whatever he could.
The first portion of my LDT went rather well until the "questioning" turned more into statements of my guilt, and I blew the needle way off track when my BP hit the boiling point.
Even though I was not the only person at the scene of the crime at the alledged time, I was the only one ever questioned. I demanded and was given a 2nd poly immediately under my one condition, that the questions remained as questions and not accusations. I passed the 2nd. So do I blame DB for not co-operating with LE? Heck NO! I've been in that hot seat before and know how some LEOs operate. Since I was not privvy to how the questions were asked, didn't hear the tone of those questions, I will give DB the benefit of the doubt. When I see EVIDENCE pointing to DB committing a crime, I'll get back on the fence, for now, I remain in her corner. I'm looking for a live Lisa.
Again JMHO based on being there, done that, wear the Tee shirt.

Mountain_Kat
10-20-2011, 02:10 PM
Around the :58 mark.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/lisa-irwin-a-look-inside-the-home-26863873.html#crsl=%252Fvideo%252Fus-15749625%252Flisa-irwin-a-look-inside-the-home-26863873.html



Quoting myself here because I think I'm wrong. I think THIS might actually be Lisa's bedroom we're looking at here. Does that look like a crib to anyone else? And what I thought were dark drapes is actually the plastic over the window?!

I think it might BE!

Jaxson
10-20-2011, 02:11 PM
Thank you!

If those are the actual last known photos of Lisa I wish the media would start using those (they could fuzz out the relatives' faces). She looks much different there than she does in all the "baby" photos we've seen 100 times. More like a toddler. I love her little jeans. :)


Yes and well cared for, healthy and happy. Very cute little girl.

Oriah
10-20-2011, 02:11 PM
IMD- what about the space between the camper and the window and sliding glass door? The camper looks like it has a decent trailer hook up on it, and it appears to be grounded properly. Doesn't look (by that photo) that it's been moved lately. And yet another question, sorry! The light at the rear corner of the home- is it battery, electric, or solar operated? Do you know? TIA.
http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt126/jerseygirl12345/ViewfromNewChopper-backofirwinHome.jpgIf you look at this pic, you can see how far away from the house it was. They probably wouldn't have parked it any closer as it would be in the way of slider door and 1 garage door.
If it is like an old camper we had when I was little, no way would you risk standing on the roof kinda flimsy after all these years! And it sure would not be quiet.

21merc7
10-20-2011, 02:13 PM
Quoting myself here because I think I'm wrong. I think THIS might actually be Lisa's bedroom we're looking at here. Does that look like a crib to anyone else? And what I thought were dark drapes is actually the plastic over the window?!

I think it might BE!

At what time mark? at :58 the news person is walking to the "spare living room." The first room shown is Baby Lisa's.

First we walk by the desk with photo of Baby Lisa, then walk to her room, then walk to spare living room.

I see the duct tape on the wall over the black plastic.

sarx
10-20-2011, 02:15 PM
The calm before the storm....

goldringstx
10-20-2011, 02:16 PM
My kids were all above average weight as well so had to take the swing down early. Could she have been climbing out of the swing, or in for that matter? Just a thought

Maybe I am weird, but my kid's swing was always in a public part of the house... like the living room or even sometimes the kitchen. So that I could keep the baby content and within view while I did something. The swing IN her room is strange to me, and if Lisa was in her room, unattended and not contained to her crib, I could see her injuring herself by climbing on/in the swing.

CarrieBean
10-20-2011, 02:16 PM
The calm before the storm....

I hope you're right

Mountain_Kat
10-20-2011, 02:16 PM
At what time mark? at :58 the news person is walking to the "spare living room." The first room shown is Baby Lisa's.

That's what I thought! So her bedroom window must be the the first window from the back deck, right? So her bedroom window must be the one over the air conditioner thingy in the back yard.

In da Middle
10-20-2011, 02:17 PM
IMD- what about the space between the camper and the window and sliding glass door? The camper looks like it has a decent trailer hook up on it, and it appears to be grounded properly. Doesn't look (by that photo) that it's been moved lately. And yet another question, sorry! The light at the rear corner of the home- is it battery, electric, or solar operated? Do you know? TIA.
I dont know much about the back yard. I do know that when you come down the hill on 37th street (where the 'back yard' cam was yesterday), you can see their back yard. The camper was always parked right where it is now or by the shop garage when I noticed. No clue about the back light.

CarrieBean
10-20-2011, 02:18 PM
Maybe I am weird, but my kid's swing was always in a public part of the house... like the living room or even sometimes the kitchen. So that I could keep the baby content and within view while I did something. The swing IN her room is strange to me, and if Lisa was in her room, unattended and not contained to her crib, I could see her injuring herself by climbing on/in the swing.

It could be that it's just stored there while not in use.

Bemsmom
10-20-2011, 02:21 PM
For example, I don't think DB and the neighbor drank that night because I believe DB was buying the wine for her brother (separate transactions, handed him receipt and change, he avoided any physical contact with the wine, etc. - do we know how old he is?)

I think he bought it for her because she had no money (cell phones turned off), that's why she handed the change and receipt back. I am not inclined to believe that she drank it (or at least enough to be drunk) thus the reaction by LE (perhaps disagreeing with the neighbors recounting as mentioned). I honestly don't know any 20 year old boys that drink boxed wine. He could get a 12 pack of natural light or a cheap bottle of vodka for the same price.

MamaK
10-20-2011, 02:21 PM
It could be that it's just stored there while not in use.

They may not have been using the swing anymore and storing it in her room. If I remember correctly, in the pictures that I saw of the room, there were a number of items for newborns. At the time, I thought to mself, that Lisa had probably grown out of those things but they were just kept in her room for storage. MOO

raeann
10-20-2011, 02:22 PM
I just don't see the intruder theory holding water. There are too many other "convenient" things that just don't make sense. Would LOVE to be wrong, but I just don't think that parents who truly wanted to find their alive daughter would stop cooperating with LE.

Well....I have been listening CAREFULLY to all the LE comments on the not cooperating thing, just to see what the conflict of information is, and it is definitely a matter of LE skewing the information a bit. They (LE) said that the parents HAVE spoken to them by phone on a number of occasions, but "they are not SITTING down with us on OUR TERMS and answering questions". That is pretty much a direct quote given on a number of statements from LE.

To me....that IS cooperation, just not allowing LE to have the kind of control and intimidation factors that LE would prefer during questioning.


jmo though

21merc7
10-20-2011, 02:22 PM
That's what I thought! So her bedroom window must be the the first window from the back deck, right? So her bedroom window must be the one over the air conditioner thingy in the back yard.

Let me go back and look at the back yard photos.

In the video, if you click within the video frame you can zoom, you will see the duct tape on the plastic.

BRB.

nursebeeme
10-20-2011, 02:23 PM
I bet it's not quiet at the PD...:)

ITA:twocents:

peeples
10-20-2011, 02:24 PM
Maybe I am weird, but my kid's swing was always in a public part of the house... like the living room or even sometimes the kitchen. So that I could keep the baby content and within view while I did something. The swing IN her room is strange to me, and if Lisa was in her room, unattended and not contained to her crib, I could see her injuring herself by climbing on/in the swing.

AGREED, and i'm glad someone else brought this up..
I only put my children in a few minutes at a time, so i could fold laundry, stir dinner, plate it up etc and kids were always within my view, I had a swing in the living room, high chair in the dining room, bouncy seat in the kitchen and pack n play in the family room so there was always a place to put down the babies if i needed to help one of the older ones with something no reason for a swing in the bedroom...... As they transitioned from infant to roller and crawler we put up A LOT of baby gates.
MOO and yes i know all parents do it different

21merc7
10-20-2011, 02:25 PM
That's what I thought! So her bedroom window must be the the first window from the back deck, right? So her bedroom window must be the one over the air conditioner thingy in the back yard.

Ok, is the "spare living room" by the back deck? If so, then that would put her room over the central heating/cooling unit. Carp, now I've gotta find the floor plan.

ETA: Central air/heating unit provides access to window if you are tall.

Mountain_Kat
10-20-2011, 02:26 PM
So...if Lisa's bedroom is the bedroom closest to the computer room, and JI comes home and see's the lights on, front door unlocked, and the computer room window open, he HAD to have walked past Lisa's open (according to parents) bedroom door.

Just how many lights WERE on that morning? :waitasec:

goldringstx
10-20-2011, 02:27 PM
AGREED, and i'm glad someone else brought this up..
I only put my children in a few minutes at a time, so i could fold laundry, stir dinner, plate it up etc and kids were always within my view, I had a swing in the living room, high chair in the dining room, bouncy seat in the kitchen and pack n play in the family room so there was always a place to put down the babies if i needed to help one of the older ones with something no reason for a swing in the bedroom...... As they transitioned from infant to roller and crawler we put up A LOT of baby gates.
MOO and yes i know all parents do it different

Totally agree, and I wouldn't have "Stored" it in their rooms after they outgrew it either, it's just asking to be climbed on/played with.

goldringstx
10-20-2011, 02:28 PM
So...if Lisa's bedroom is the bedroom closest to the computer room, and JI comes home and see's the lights on, front door unlocked, and the computer room window open, he HAD to have walked past Lisa's open (according to parents) bedroom door.

Just how many lights WERE on that morning? :waitasec:


That's what I thought, and why it seemed strange to me his story about checking on the boys and then waking up DB. :waitasec:

Mountain_Kat
10-20-2011, 02:29 PM
Ok, is the "spare living room" by the back deck? If so, then that would put her room over the central heating/cooling unit. Carp, now I've gotta find the floor plan.

Exactly, Merc. That floor plan is WAY off.

In da Middle
10-20-2011, 02:30 PM
Well....I have been listening CAREFULLY to all the LE comments on the not cooperating thing, just to see what the conflict of information is, and it is definitely a matter of LE skewing the information a bit. They (LE) said that the parents HAVE spoken to them by phone on a number of occasions, but "they are not SITTING down with us on OUR TERMS and answering questions". That is pretty much a direct quote given on a number of statements from LE.

To me....that IS cooperation, just not allowing LE to have the kind of control and intimidation factors that LE would prefer during questioning.


jmo though
Thank you, this is what I have been trying to convey, just couldn't get the words out. We know they ARE talking because we have film of them together on many occasions since then and we have signed consent forms being gathered. That all takes at least some form of communication.

SmoothOperator
10-20-2011, 02:30 PM
As far as the X-rays IMO it's a good possibility that it is the phones that they are still searching for.. Whether or not they hold major evidnence I personally don't know but I certainly believe that LE is certainly hoping they do.. Thus why we see the determination to find them..

IMO it's a good possibility that the last pings were shown in/around the home and they never pinged anywhere else.. This just further confirming LE thoughts of the parents involvement and the parents having hid the phones..

But IMO is very possible that the phones last active pings were in/around the home and then one of two things occurred.. Either the phones battery died.. Rendering it useless and no pings or the batteries were removed with same result of no pings..

So "if" it is indeed a fact that the last pings from the phones were in/around the home and this is why LE believes so strongly that means they never left that specific area.. IMO that is far from being true.. Just because the last ping shows there, imo would be truly irrelevant.. Those phones could still be in Timbuktu for all we/they know..

Jmo, tho!

Snowball58
10-20-2011, 02:31 PM
For example, I don't think DB and the neighbor drank that night because I believe DB was buying the wine for her brother (separate transactions, handed him receipt and change, he avoided any physical contact with the wine, etc. - do we know how old he is?)

I think he bought it for her because she had no money (cell phones turned off), that's why she handed the change and receipt back. I am not inclined to believe that she drank it (or at least enough to be drunk) thus the reaction by LE (perhaps disagreeing with the neighbors recounting as mentioned). I honestly don't know any 20 year old boys that drink boxed wine. He could get a 12 pack of natural light or a cheap bottle of vodka for the same price.

But then why two separate transactions? Wouldn't he also have bought her the baby things too then? Unless she bought it on two transactions to hide it from Jeremy, hence the cash payment. It's a head scratcher...

Mountain_Kat
10-20-2011, 02:32 PM
Here is my unscientific (lol) breakdown of the windows and what rooms they belong to, based on pictures of the back of the house that we have as well as the floorplan.

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Lisa%20Irwin%20%20-MO-/100411rear-overheadfromheli.png


Floorplan (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=19070&d=1317999122) from the timeline thread (too big to embed)

There are a total of four windows on the back of the house. I think the order (from left to right, starting from the window next to the deck) is like this:

1) boys' bedroom
2) Lisa's bedroom
3) master bathroom (little window)
4) master bedroom

Bringing this post up so everyone can have a second look. Lisa's bedroom is actually over the air conditioner unit in the backyard. :)

(Whew! Now I need a potty break!)

ETA: And if Jeremy's statement about the boys room being on the opposite end of the house from the computer room is accurate, then their bedroom could well be the one over the garage. The opening and closing of a garage door clicks, according to another WSer. So IF one of the boys really told LE he heard a clicking sound that night, could this be what he heard? Or something else in the garage?

Kat
10-20-2011, 02:32 PM
On her show last night NG had a floorplan too. I can't find the video online uploaded. But it looked fairly close. If we could find that one we could work out which room is which by looking at the windows? Just a thought.

goldringstx
10-20-2011, 02:33 PM
But then why two separate transactions? Wouldn't he also have bought her the baby things too then? Unless she bought it on two transactions to hide it from Jeremy, hence the cash payment. It's a head scratcher...

I'm ASSuming she could have paid with some type of food stamps/WIC/government assistance which doesn't pay for alcohol?

nursebeeme
10-20-2011, 02:34 PM
Wednesday did not mark the first search of the house, but it was the first time authorities sought a judge's order. "I would say it wasn't required," Young says of the warrant. "However, we felt that since they had retained an attorney, and to ensure that there's no confusion over our legal right to be on the property, we obtained a search warrant."

Did it represent any reluctance by the parents (who have been staying with a relative) to assist? "I'm not indicating or implying that at all," he says.

In prior searches of the property, police who were filmed by local television, were seen attempting to enter through an open front window, trying to re-create the parents' suggestion that it may have been the entry point for a kidnapper. http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20538685,00.html

Lera213
10-20-2011, 02:34 PM
What's up? I just woke up! I want to pat myself on the back this morning because it isn't often I'm right or first about anything. I was the first to guess xrays yesterday. *struts her fingers across her keyboard*

KCMommie
10-20-2011, 02:37 PM
Hi Everyone! I’m new, but have been reading the site for days. I live near the scene of missing baby Irwin, so the concern that there is a boogie-man out there taking our children is of high concern to me. I really appreciate reading all of your posts.

Some concerns:

1.) Were the cell phones “pinged” or did a call go out from one at 2:30 am. I have conflicting stories. Initially, I had heard a text went out, then a call, now a ping. I wonder if ping isn’t that there was activity 'from' the phone. ()Even if a cell phone is restricted… it can still dial to the carrier by redirect.)

2.) There was a report of Deborah’s cousin’s car on the scene and that he left for Texas. I first noticed the car, but it was mentioned by a commenter on Alonzo Washingtons blog about the case. Does anyone have any ideas about this red car? I wonder if it was checked. Could Miss Lisa been removed from the scene via this car? Or was it there overnight?

3.) I tend to think KCPD was on to Irwin’s past when they arrived on the scene given the 911 dispatchers comment making the officers aware that there was a call ON Irwin August 16th, to contact them via cell for more information. I don’t think they were leaving any stone unturned.

4.) I think that if you explore narcissistic traits you will see similarities in Deborah Bradley. Initially, I wanted to believe her, but by day two with my experience I know that her actions/expressions did not match. One of the first red flags. It’s all about appearance with these people, so I wasn’t surprised to see others come out with “attention seeking behaviors” as a past. They are like 2 year olds that throw fits when they don’t get their way. If someone does not believe them.. They move on to someone who will. (ie: National Media) Nothing is good enough for them, only the BEST can help them… an average everyday KCPD officer is not enough. I could go on and on with the various giveaways… one very important one is going on National TV with indignation that it was appropriate to leave her sickly, toddler in a crib for 9-10 hours (neglect and endangerment) She displayed no remorse. Everything is calculated. I’ve found the best way to handle these people is to give them room to hang themselves. Point in case, give her room to talk and she gives herself away.

5.) I am highly suspicious of DB obviously; however, we simply do not know she DID do anything. All sorts of scenarios can be supposed; I found it VERY interesting that this case resembled the Fort Bragg incident. (Narcissism again?) OR because of the type of person she is (potentially mental illness) that she has burned bridges and someone felt that she did not deserve this child and set her up? There was/is NO question in my mind her family is HIGHLY dysfunctional..(makings of BPD , Narcissism and a host of other PD’s and disorders -- anxiety meds!) Could one of these people have been that person? I don’t see very many scenarios about this and I wonder why? If I’ve missed something other than we know the most obvious is DB or JI?

6.) I wonder if they plan to check other family member’s homes and properties. Whatever happened, it wasn’t a one person job it seems. Someone had to have known something.

7.) For confirmation, I am not clear on who is the man seen with DB and JI in the press conference with Talking Head Joe? Is that her brother? Cousin? Why was he there? Does anyone know? Seemed odd. (Of course the whole things is bizarre, but just one of the many facets of this case that stands out to me right now)

I am so sorry for the seemingly barrage of thought… but I’ve sort of collected these unanswered questions along the way! ;)

21merc7
10-20-2011, 02:38 PM
On her show last night NG had a floorplan too. I can't find the video online uploaded. But it looked fairly close. If we could find that one we could work out which room is which by looking at the windows? Just a thought.

Here's the one we were looking at, thanks to laura.anne:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=19070&d=1317999122

It seems from the video that the rooms are incorrectly marked according to the walk in the video.

Video:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=19070&d=1317999122

Kat
10-20-2011, 02:42 PM
Welcome to Websleuths KCmommie! :balloons:

Lera213
10-20-2011, 02:42 PM
Hi Everyone! I’m new, but have been reading the site for days. I live near the scene of missing baby Irwin, so the concern that there is a boogie-man out there taking our children is of high concern to me. I really appreciate reading all of your posts.

Some concerns:

1.) Were the cell phones “pinged” or did a call go out from one at 2:30 am. I have conflicting stories. Initially, I had heard a text went out, then a call, now a ping. I wonder if ping isn’t that there was activity 'from' the phone. ()Even if a cell phone is restricted… it can still dial to the carrier by redirect.)

2.) There was a report of Deborah’s cousin’s car on the scene and that he left for Texas. I first noticed the car, but it was mentioned by a commenter on Alonzo Washingtons blog about the case. Does anyone have any ideas about this red car? I wonder if it was checked. Could Miss Lisa been removed from the scene via this car? Or was it there overnight?

3.) I tend to think KCPD was on to Irwin’s past when they arrived on the scene given the 911 dispatchers comment making the officers aware that there was a call ON Irwin August 16th, to contact them via cell for more information. I don’t think they were leaving any stone unturned.

4.) I think that if you explore narcissistic traits you will see similarities in Deborah Bradley. Initially, I wanted to believe her, but by day two with my experience I know that her actions/expressions did not match. One of the first red flags. It’s all about appearance with these people, so I wasn’t surprised to see others come out with “attention seeking behaviors” as a past. They are like 2 year olds that throw fits when they don’t get their way. If someone does not believe them.. They move on to someone who will. (ie: National Media) Nothing is good enough for them, only the BEST can help them… an average everyday KCPD officer is not enough. I could go on and on with the various giveaways… one very important one is going on National TV with indignation that it was appropriate to leave her sickly, toddler in a crib for 9-10 hours (neglect and endangerment) She displayed no remorse. Everything is calculated. I’ve found the best way to handle these people is to give them room to hang themselves. Point in case, give her room to talk and she gives herself away.

5.) I am highly suspicious of DB obviously; however, we simply do not know she DID do anything. All sorts of scenarios can be supposed; I found it VERY interesting that this case resembled the Fort Bragg incident. (Narcissism again?) OR because of the type of person she is (potentially mental illness) that she has burned bridges and someone felt that she did not deserve this child and set her up? There was/is NO question in my mind her family is HIGHLY dysfunctional..(makings of BPD , Narcissism and a host of other PD’s and disorders -- anxiety meds!) Could one of these people have been that person? I don’t see very many scenarios about this and I wonder why? If I’ve missed something other than we know the most obvious is DB or JI?

6.) I wonder if they plan to check other family member’s homes and properties. Whatever happened, it wasn’t a one person job it seems. Someone had to have known something.

7.) For confirmation, I am not clear on who is the man seen with DB and JI in the press conference with Talking Head Joe? Is that her brother? Cousin? Why was he there? Does anyone know? Seemed odd. (Of course the whole things is bizarre, but just one of the many facets of this case that stands out to me right now)

I am so sorry for the seemingly barrage of thought… but I’ve sort of collected these unanswered questions along the way! ;)

:Welcome1:

justbetweenus
10-20-2011, 02:42 PM
Does anyone know if there was a blind on Lisa's window before the garbage bags? I wondered if she may have hung herself on the blind cord, and wasn't found for several hrs. Just a thought.

Dewey2Me1MoThyme
10-20-2011, 02:45 PM
Welcome to WS KCMommie

Miziree
10-20-2011, 02:46 PM
re-creation of Jeremy coming home:

Police step up search for missing Missouri infant - YouTube

keeponsearching
10-20-2011, 02:48 PM
Does anyone know if there was a blind on Lisa's window before the garbage bags? I wondered if she may have hung herself on the blind cord, and wasn't found for several hrs. Just a thought.

I wonder that to. If she was standing in the crib she very well could of grabbed onto a cord.

frankie069
10-20-2011, 02:50 PM
The only problem I have with DB and a coverup is she didn't drive. How far away could the baby and phones be in that case ?

She didnt have a license to drive.. She could drive though. In a post a while back it was said that she lost her license.. Big difference. So if she was able to get a car, though I think they had one in the driveway I believe, she can drive. So there are still 4 hours of time now that need to be made up for where that baby is.. She could be quite far.

Mountain_Kat
10-20-2011, 02:51 PM
Oh, HELL no!!

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20537999,00.html

But when he peeked in on then 10-month-old daughter Lisa, her light was on and the crib was empty.

That, Irwin tells PEOPLE in this week's cover story, "is when all hell broke loose."

He walked through the unlocked front door, past Lisa's OPEN, lit up bedroom to the window in the computer room?! Never saw or suspected a thing until he's at the other end of the house talking to Debbie?!

keeponsearching
10-20-2011, 02:51 PM
She didnt have a license to drive.. She could drive though. In a post a while back it was said that she lost her license.. Big difference. So if she was able to get a car, though I think they had one in the driveway I believe, she can drive. So there are still 4 hours of time now that need to be made up for where that baby is.. She could be quite far.

What 4 hours?

Lera213
10-20-2011, 02:53 PM
http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_missouri/northland/former-fbi-agent-explains-why-investigators-searched-the-irwin-home-again

In this video when they pan to the house during last night, you can see a red infrared light in the living room area

MamaK
10-20-2011, 02:53 PM
I'm ASSuming she could have paid with some type of food stamps/WIC/government assistance which doesn't pay for alcohol?

I'm not 100% sure but I don't think you can buy baby wipes with food stamps or WIC. I think the baby food would be eligible though.

norest4thewicked
10-20-2011, 02:53 PM
Welcome to WS KCMommie! :)

keeponsearching
10-20-2011, 02:53 PM
Oh, HELL no!!

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20537999,00.html

But when he peeked in on then 10-month-old daughter Lisa, her light was on and the crib was empty.

That, Irwin tells PEOPLE in this week's cover story, "is when all hell broke loose."

Her light, wow, I wonder what other house lights were on.....

norest4thewicked
10-20-2011, 02:55 PM
I still find the lights being on a really odd part of this.

Miziree
10-20-2011, 02:55 PM
KCmommy
#7
Watch the brief statement from Michael Lerette, the cousin of Lisa Irwin's mother
He lives out of state and a marine, came to make plea for return of Lisa
http://news.yahoo.com/video/kansascitykmbc-18211647/missing-baby-lisa-s-family-makes-statement-26955885.html

Duke Fan4
10-20-2011, 02:56 PM
IF DB killed Lisa accidently or or purpose and covered it up driving without a license would be the least of her worries at that time. JMOO

SmoothOperator
10-20-2011, 02:57 PM
Here's the flloorplan from NG that someone was asking about. I had taken a pic of tv screen a while back.. Don't know if it'll help or not..http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb414/jessigirl1798/8d9cd962.jpg

In da Middle
10-20-2011, 02:59 PM
http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_missouri/northland/former-fbi-agent-explains-why-investigators-searched-the-irwin-home-again

In this video when they pan to the house during last night, you can see a red infrared light in the living room area
IMO vehicle lights. Watch right before and you see bomb squad running lights and a car braking right out front of the house.

Lera213
10-20-2011, 03:00 PM
IMO vehicle lights. Watch right before and you see bomb squad running lights and a car braking right out front of the house.

it could very well be...to me it looked more like one of those pen lights, sharper pin pointed. *shrug*

Any activity around there today if you know? Can you see her house from where you are or do you have to go drive there?

justbetweenus
10-20-2011, 03:02 PM
IMO vehicle lights. Watch right before and you see bomb squad running lights and a car braking right out front of the house.

Wow...you are so smart.;)

nursebeeme
10-20-2011, 03:03 PM
Oh, HELL no!!

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20537999,00.html

But when he peeked in on then 10-month-old daughter Lisa, her light was on and the crib was empty.

That, Irwin tells PEOPLE in this week's cover story, "is when all hell broke loose."

He walked through the unlocked front door, past Lisa's OPEN, lit up bedroom to the window in the computer room?! Never saw or suspected a thing until he's at the other end of the house talking to Debbie?!

wow...

EllaMae
10-20-2011, 03:04 PM
Maybe I am weird, but my kid's swing was always in a public part of the house... like the living room or even sometimes the kitchen. So that I could keep the baby content and within view while I did something. The swing IN her room is strange to me, and if Lisa was in her room, unattended and not contained to her crib, I could see her injuring herself by climbing on/in the swing.

You can't just assume the swing always stayed in Lisa's room. It could've been moved in there recently for any number of reasons.
At 10 months, and being a larger baby who was pulling up, Lisa's swinging days were probably over anyway.

Mountain_Kat
10-20-2011, 03:05 PM
wow...

Well, it IS People magazine. But DID Jeremy Irwin say that? because if he did...WOW indeed!

drinkitin
10-20-2011, 03:05 PM
Newbie here! I finally joined after a week of visiting. This case has consumed my life.
Is true that in order for the LE to receive a search warrant, they would have to have evidence to suggest they need a warrant?

Also to the floor plan, I thought I heard Jeremy Irwin state that their bedroom was on the opposite side of the house? Did anyone else see or hear that? Or did I imagine it?

Miziree
10-20-2011, 03:05 PM
I'm not 100% sure but I don't think you can buy baby wipes with food stamps or WIC. I think the baby food would be eligible though.

WIC is a check and you have to get certain items/brands..cheese,milk,baby food,cerel,beans,pbutter, juice and eggs.
Food stamps are actually cards (most states). There is a option on the card for food or cash. Some people can get cash, but i dont think this was the case for her...
You have to do WIC alone because it is a check. The food stamps can be used for any food except hot food from the case. You do not have to ring up food stamp and other stuff seperate..it automatically does it for you..

In da Middle
10-20-2011, 03:05 PM
it could very well be...to me it looked more like one of those pen lights, sharper pin pointed. *shrug*

Any activity around there today if you know? Can you see her house from where you are or do you have to go drive there?
Nothing going on up there this morning when I drove out. Road is now open. Not aware of anything happening since.

Duke Fan4
10-20-2011, 03:06 PM
I don't know much about babies but from the pics I have seen on FOX NEWS CHANNEL she looks about 5-6 months old. Anyone how have little ones give me a head up.

frankie069
10-20-2011, 03:07 PM
What 4 hours?

The 6:40 when she put her to bed, possibly 7:30 checking on her cannot be confirmed but she originally said she checked on her at 10:30 which she re-canted. So we have almost 4 hours of more time that Lisa cannot be accounted for.

LancelotLink
10-20-2011, 03:08 PM
yes then it was filled and the shop garage was built over it. The shop garage has been there for many years.

Have you been in it recently, say up to two, three years ago?

chieftess
10-20-2011, 03:08 PM
Oh, HELL no!!

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20537999,00.html

But when he peeked in on then 10-month-old daughter Lisa, her light was on and the crib was empty.

That, Irwin tells PEOPLE in this week's cover story, "is when all hell broke loose."

He walked through the unlocked front door, past Lisa's OPEN, lit up bedroom to the window in the computer room?! Never saw or suspected a thing until he's at the other end of the house talking to Debbie?!

Interesting! First we have heard of that.
I think at this point the only timeline I can go by is this:
Sunday - baby Lisa at bday party
Monday- 5pm-ish DB buys wine (seen on video surveilance camera)
Tuesday- 4:04am 911 call to report her missing

I just don't know what else there is to trust, the story keeps changing

norest4thewicked
10-20-2011, 03:09 PM
Well, it IS People magazine. But DID Jeremy Irwin say that? because if he did...WOW indeed!

Yes...yet another version? This is like riding a roller coaster!

alwayslooking
10-20-2011, 03:10 PM
Not I! Trying to follow the rules...haha
I am always in trouble, usually for being snarky........when I think I am delightful!:floorlaugh:

Wise Old Owl
10-20-2011, 03:10 PM
Oh, HELL no!!

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20537999,00.html

But when he peeked in on then 10-month-old daughter Lisa, her light was on and the crib was empty.

That, Irwin tells PEOPLE in this week's cover story, "is when all hell broke loose."

He walked through the unlocked front door, past Lisa's OPEN, lit up bedroom to the window in the computer room?! Never saw or suspected a thing until he's at the other end of the house talking to Debbie?!
And see - he failed to mention that in Megyn's interview. When MK asked what lights were on he said:

1) Light in the living room

2) 2 lights in the kitchen

3) "accent lights" in the computer room

4) a "pumpkin light" also in the computer room.

He never once mentioned the bedrooms and what lights he found on or off there.

I really want to know if the boy's bedroom light was on and if not then why not? An intruder wouldn't know who is in what bedroom without turning a light on - KWIM?

This edges even closer to the "perp" being someone known to that house!

JMHO

nursebeeme
10-20-2011, 03:10 PM
howdy and welcome drikitin!!!!

norest4thewicked
10-20-2011, 03:10 PM
Newbie here! I finally joined after a week of visiting. This case has consumed my life.
Is true that in order for the LE to receive a search warrant, they would have to have evidence to suggest they need a warrant?

Also to the floor plan, I thought I heard Jeremy Irwin state that their bedroom was on the opposite side of the house? Did anyone else see or hear that? Or did I imagine it?

WELCOME!!! WS is a great place and we are glad to have you! :)

keeponsearching
10-20-2011, 03:11 PM
I am so lost in this. Everything changes, no exact answers. I would like to hear from LE but I understand they have a job to do, and bringing home Lisa is more important then clearing up facts to the public.

MamaK
10-20-2011, 03:11 PM
I don't know much about babies but from the pics I have seen on FOX NEWS CHANNEL she looks about 5-6 months old. Anyone how have little ones give me a head up.

I think some of those are older pictures. By the parents description, she's a bit big for 11 months IMO. I think the weight is off in her description because even for that height, if she was 26-30 pounds, she would be a VERY chunky monkey. My 3 year old is 30 pounds... She looks about average weight for her height in the pictures.:twocents:

norest4thewicked
10-20-2011, 03:12 PM
Nothing going on up there this morning when I drove out. Road is now open. Not aware of anything happening since.

I bet it's "hoppin" down at the PD though! Tomorrow or Saturday should be a BIG day...hopefully!

Miziree
10-20-2011, 03:13 PM
Newbie here! I finally joined after a week of visiting. This case has consumed my life.
Is true that in order for the LE to receive a search warrant, they would have to have evidence to suggest they need a warrant?

Also to the floor plan, I thought I heard Jeremy Irwin state that their bedroom was on the opposite side of the house? Did anyone else see or hear that? Or did I imagine it?

http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_missouri/northland/former-fbi-agent-explains-why-investigators-searched-the-irwin-home-again

“A search warrant is based on probable cause, and probable cause is based primarily on specificity. A law enforcement officer must swear that there is specific evidence that he or she believes to be found at that location at this time and its evidence to a crime. They can’t just go back because they want to make sure they haven’t missed anything. If the search warrant was for let’s say a computer, you can look anywhere where a computer would reasonably be found. You can't look in my desk drawer but if you’re looking for a little vile of medicine, then yes you can look in desk drawers under mattresses, anywhere it could reasonably be found. It doesn't have to be the medicine cabinet where anyone can find it - in the course of that search anything in plain view can be legally seized,” explained Tabman.

In da Middle
10-20-2011, 03:14 PM
Have you been in it recently, say up to two, three years ago?
Nope. Only in the back yard in general many years ago.

Wise Old Owl
10-20-2011, 03:14 PM
I bet it's "hoppin" down at the PD though! Tomorrow or Saturday should be a BIG day...hopefully!
Yep yep yep - that lab is hustling - you can bet on that! Plus the computer forensic team are glued to those machines. Oh, to be a fly on the wall..................

curiousc
10-20-2011, 03:14 PM
Oh, HELL no!!

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20537999,00.html

But when he peeked in on then 10-month-old daughter Lisa, her light was on and the crib was empty.

That, Irwin tells PEOPLE in this week's cover story, "is when all hell broke loose."

He walked through the unlocked front door, past Lisa's OPEN, lit up bedroom to the window in the computer room?! Never saw or suspected a thing until he's at the other end of the house talking to Debbie?!

Is anyone keeping count now? Is this JI's version 5?

However, if he saw Lisa's door open and it had a light on, he may have assumed the baby was in with DB.

I don't know which version to believe, if any of them.

Peazzzer
10-20-2011, 03:15 PM
Welcome Drinkitin! Guest, join us! :welcome2: :welcome4: :welcome3: :welcomewagon: :thanks:

Mountain_Kat
10-20-2011, 03:16 PM
Here's the flloorplan from NG that someone was asking about. I had taken a pic of tv screen a while back.. Don't know if it'll help or not..http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb414/jessigirl1798/8d9cd962.jpg

This floor plan can't be right either. Look at this video again at the :57 mark. There is no hall going past the nursery room door. Not that I can see anyway. There also doesn't appear to be any door leading to another bedroom.

Also, the reporter walks straight through the kitchen to the computer room. He doesn't turn and go through any hallway.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/lisa-irwin-a-look-inside-the-home-26863873.html#crsl=%252Fvideo%252Fus-15749625%252Flisa-irwin-a-look-inside-the-home-26863873.html

norest4thewicked
10-20-2011, 03:16 PM
Yep yep yep - that lab is hustling - you can bet on that! Plus the computer forensic team are glued to those machines. Oh, to be a fly on the wall..................

Oh yes, definitely! But there is probably going to be some out there complaining that "nothing is going on"...danged if you do and danged if you don't!

SmoothOperator
10-20-2011, 03:16 PM
There would have been no reason for him to automatically ASSUME that baby Lisa was gone/snatched/abducted when he looked or saw in her room that she was NOT in her bed(with or without the lights on).. Just like he DID NOT ASSUME automatically something was wrong when he saw that one of the boys was NOT IN HIS BED!!

It was only upon entering their bedroom where mom was sleeping that Jeremy would see that there is the son that WAS NOT IN HIS BED.. and I'm sure that was where he ASSUMED he'd find his daughter WHO WAS NOT IN HER BED!!

It's AT THAT POINT that he says that Lisa was NOT IN HER CRIB!! and supposedly Deb 's like, " what do you mean she's not in her crib? ".. Etc, Etc, Etc...

So, I do not understand why the negative response when IMO it wouldn't have made sense for him to be in freak out mode IMMEDIATELY SEEING LISA NOT IN HER CRIB.. he did not freak out immediately when he saw one son was not in his bed.. It was upon seeing that The one son was in bed with mom but there was NO LISA in the bed with mom/son THAT WOULD IMO CAUSE PANIC!! jmo, tho!



http://www.people.com/people/article...537999,00.html

But when he peeked in on then 10-month-old daughter Lisa, her light was on and the crib was empty.
IMO it wouldn't make sense for him to panic at this point.. Just like he didn't panic when seeing his son NOT IN HIS BED!

That, Irwin tells PEOPLE in this week's cover story, "is when all hell broke loose."

He walked through the unlocked front door, past Lisa's OPEN, lit up bedroom to the window in the computer room?! Never saw or suspected a thing until he's at the other end of the house talking to Debbie?!
It would be upon his getting to their bedroom ams seeing his son in bed with mom.. And having expected that to be where Lisa was as well.. WHEN HE SAW THAT LISA WAS NOT IN THE BED WITH MOM AND SON THAT'S WHEN ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE!!


IMOO the exact same reaction of Panic/"All Hell Broke Loose" would have occurred at that exact moment if baby Lisa Was found sleeping with mom and THE SON WAS NOT!!
IMO there was no reason for panic upon Jeremy seeing his son NOT IN HIS BED or Lisa NOT IN HER BED.. it would only be cause for alarm when getting to their bedroom and seeing that Lisa was not in the bed with mom and son.. I don't see how it makes sense for him to be panicked a moment BEFORE THIS TIME..

justbetweenus
10-20-2011, 03:18 PM
And see - he failed to mention that in Megyn's interview. When MK asked what lights were on he said:

1) Light in the living room

2) 2 lights in the kitchen

3) "accent lights" in the computer room

4) a "pumpkin light" also in the computer room.

He never once mentioned the bedrooms and what lights he found on or off there.

I really want to know if the boy's bedroom light was on and if not then why not? An intruder wouldn't know who is in what bedroom without turning a light on - KWIM?

This edges even closer to the "perp" being someone known to that house!

JMHO

I *think* if my recollection is right these lights he mentioned that were on were ones that they don't often have on. Not that they were the only ones on.

LancelotLink
10-20-2011, 03:18 PM
Nope. Only in the back yard in general many years ago.

Thanks. I'm curious as to where the pool table is located.

In da Middle
10-20-2011, 03:20 PM
There would have been no reason for him to automatically ASSUME that baby Lisa was gone/snatched/abducted when he looked or saw in her room that she was NOT in her bed(with or without the lights on).. Just like he DID NOT ASSUME automatically something was wrong when he saw that one of the boys was NOT IN HIS BED!!

It was only upon entering their bedroom where mom was sleeping that Jeremy would see that there is the son that WAS NOT IN HIS BED.. and I'm sure that was where he ASSUMED he'd find his daughter WHO WAS NOT IN HER BED!!

It's AT THAT POINT that he says that Lisa was NOT IN HER CRIB!! and supposedly De 's like, " what do you mean she's not in her crib? ".. Etc, Etc, Etc...

So, I do not understand why the negative response when IMO it wouldn't have made sense for him to be in freak out mode IMMEDIATELY SEEING LISA NOT IN HER CRIB.. he did not freak immediately when he saw one son was not in their bed.. It was upon seeing that The one son in bed with mom but NO LISA THAT WOULD IMO CAUSE PANIC!! jmo, tho!Get outta my brain! No, actually it is kinda comfy with someone else here.

Mountain_Kat
10-20-2011, 03:21 PM
Newbie here! I finally joined after a week of visiting. This case has consumed my life.
Is true that in order for the LE to receive a search warrant, they would have to have evidence to suggest they need a warrant?

Also to the floor plan, I thought I heard Jeremy Irwin state that their bedroom was on the opposite side of the house? Did anyone else see or hear that? Or did I imagine it?

He said the boys bedroom was on the opposite end of the house from the computer room. Another reason NG's floor plan can't be right.

MamaK
10-20-2011, 03:21 PM
There would have been no reason for him to automatically ASSUME that baby Lisa was gone/snatched/abducted when he looked or saw in her room that she was NOT in her bed(with or without the lights on).. Just like he DID NOT ASSUME automatically something was wrong when he saw that one of the boys was NOT IN HIS BED!!

It was only upon entering their bedroom where mom was sleeping that Jeremy would see that there is the son that WAS NOT IN HIS BED.. and I'm sure that was where he ASSUMED he'd find his daughter WHO WAS NOT IN HER BED!!

It's AT THAT POINT that he says that Lisa was NOT IN HER CRIB!! and supposedly De 's like, " what do you mean she's not in her crib? ".. Etc, Etc, Etc...

So, I do not understand why the negative response when IMO it wouldn't have made sense for him to be in freak out mode IMMEDIATELY SEEING LISA NOT IN HER CRIB.. he did not freak immediately when he saw one son was not in their bed.. It was upon seeing that The one son in bed with mom but NO LISA THAT WOULD IMO CAUSE PANIC!! jmo, tho!

That's one version of the story though, right? I think I've read other versions where the order of events are switched??? :waitasec: I'll have to go through the links, but didn't he at one point say that he checked on the boys first, and then in another article he said he looked in Lisa's room first. So, I think that's where some of the confusion comes in. I'm not saying he's "lying" but their have been some inconsistencies. I don't know if those inconsistencies are coming from him or from the reporting. MOO

In da Middle
10-20-2011, 03:22 PM
Thanks. I'm curious as to where the pool table is located.
Basement would be a logical place if there is a pool table.

21merc7
10-20-2011, 03:23 PM
This floor plan can't be right either. Look at this video again at the :57 mark. There is no hall going past the nursery room door. Not that I can see anyway. There also doesn't appear to be any door leading to another bedroom.

Also, the reporter walks straight through the kitchen to the computer room. He doesn't turn and go through any hallway.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/lisa-irwin-a-look-inside-the-home-26863873.html#crsl=%252Fvideo%252Fus-15749625%252Flisa-irwin-a-look-inside-the-home-26863873.html

It's the same danged floor plan. NG Show swiped it and redid on their own computer system, using white, red, black for better viewing.

Where's the "second living room"? (I'm really sick of typing that now.) The other baths? Another floor altogether?

shay0903
10-20-2011, 03:23 PM
This floor plan can't be right either. Look at this video again at the :57 mark. There is no hall going past the nursery room door. Not that I can see anyway. There also doesn't appear to be any door leading to another bedroom.

Also, the reporter walks straight through the kitchen to the computer room. He doesn't turn and go through any hallway.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/lisa-irwin-a-look-inside-the-home-26863873.html#crsl=%252Fvideo%252Fus-15749625%252Flisa-irwin-a-look-inside-the-home-26863873.html

Does anyone know where the steps are in the home leading to the basement and garage? I know they had questioned people who had assess to the garage so I was wondering what path a person would take if they came in through the garage. TIA!

Lera213
10-20-2011, 03:25 PM
Well, it IS People magazine. But DID Jeremy Irwin say that? because if he did...WOW indeed!

My brain is slow, still not awake but...didn't JI inital statement was that he didn't look in on Lisa, that he woke up DB and she was or both then went to look in on Lisa's room?

In da Middle
10-20-2011, 03:26 PM
That's one version of the story though, right? I think I've read other versions where the order of events are switched??? :waitasec: I'll have to go through the links, but didn't he at one point say that he checked on the boys first, and then in another article he said he looked in Lisa's room first. So, I think that's where some of the confusion comes in. I'm not saying he's "lying" but their have been some inconsistencies. I don't know if those inconsistencies are coming from him or from the reporting. MOO
But it really doesn't matter who he exactly checked on first if he came in not expecting anybody to be missing. After he checks everybody then realizes the baby is not in her bed or moms bed, then panic sets in.

Miziree
10-20-2011, 03:27 PM
Hi Everyone! I’m new, but have been reading the site for days. I live near the scene of missing baby Irwin, so the concern that there is a boogie-man out there taking our children is of high concern to me. I really appreciate reading all of your posts.

Some concerns:

1.) Were the cell phones “pinged” or did a call go out from one at 2:30 am. I have conflicting stories. Initially, I had heard a text went out, then a call, now a ping. I wonder if ping isn’t that there was activity 'from' the phone. ()Even if a cell phone is restricted… it can still dial to the carrier by redirect.)

2.) There was a report of Deborah’s cousin’s car on the scene and that he left for Texas. I first noticed the car, but it was mentioned by a commenter on Alonzo Washingtons blog about the case. Does anyone have any ideas about this red car? I wonder if it was checked. Could Miss Lisa been removed from the scene via this car? Or was it there overnight?

3.) I tend to think KCPD was on to Irwin’s past when they arrived on the scene given the 911 dispatchers comment making the officers aware that there was a call ON Irwin August 16th, to contact them via cell for more information. I don’t think they were leaving any stone unturned.

4.) I think that if you explore narcissistic traits you will see similarities in Deborah Bradley. Initially, I wanted to believe her, but by day two with my experience I know that her actions/expressions did not match. One of the first red flags. It’s all about appearance with these people, so I wasn’t surprised to see others come out with “attention seeking behaviors” as a past. They are like 2 year olds that throw fits when they don’t get their way. If someone does not believe them.. They move on to someone who will. (ie: National Media) Nothing is good enough for them, only the BEST can help them… an average everyday KCPD officer is not enough. I could go on and on with the various giveaways… one very important one is going on National TV with indignation that it was appropriate to leave her sickly, toddler in a crib for 9-10 hours (neglect and endangerment) She displayed no remorse. Everything is calculated. I’ve found the best way to handle these people is to give them room to hang themselves. Point in case, give her room to talk and she gives herself away.

5.) I am highly suspicious of DB obviously; however, we simply do not know she DID do anything. All sorts of scenarios can be supposed; I found it VERY interesting that this case resembled the Fort Bragg incident. (Narcissism again?) OR because of the type of person she is (potentially mental illness) that she has burned bridges and someone felt that she did not deserve this child and set her up? There was/is NO question in my mind her family is HIGHLY dysfunctional..(makings of BPD , Narcissism and a host of other PD’s and disorders -- anxiety meds!) Could one of these people have been that person? I don’t see very many scenarios about this and I wonder why? If I’ve missed something other than we know the most obvious is DB or JI?

6.) I wonder if they plan to check other family member’s homes and properties. Whatever happened, it wasn’t a one person job it seems. Someone had to have known something.

7.) For confirmation, I am not clear on who is the man seen with DB and JI in the press conference with Talking Head Joe? Is that her brother? Cousin? Why was he there? Does anyone know? Seemed odd. (Of course the whole things is bizarre, but just one of the many facets of this case that stands out to me right now)

I am so sorry for the seemingly barrage of thought… but I’ve sort of collected these unanswered questions along the way! ;)


fox4wdaf FOX 4 News
by CaseSignal
FBI agents and canines are searching an Irwin-Bradley family home on N. Walrond.

the above info came from our timeline here that Shelby1 has made, LOTS of info there..
Lisa Irwin-Timeline - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

#1 we have not confirmed if it was a ping/call or even if it was made i believe..
#2 Never heard of that at all

In da Middle
10-20-2011, 03:29 PM
Does anyone know where the steps are in the home leading to the basement and garage? I know they had questioned people who had assess to the garage so I was wondering what path a person would take if they came in through the garage. TIA!
If you take a look at the image posted earlier when talking about the bathroom window, the one with the garage doors open it appears to be steps leading up right there that would come up into the living room. I tried to enlarge it and it looks like stairs, but it is blurry.

Donjeta
10-20-2011, 03:29 PM
I just can't understand why an intruder/kidnapper would put on accent lights and a pumpkin light. "Ooh, that lovely wall decoration would look so much better with an accent light on... now where is that baby I came here to snatch..."

sorrell skye
10-20-2011, 03:32 PM
Newbie here! I finally joined after a week of visiting. This case has consumed my life.
Is true that in order for the LE to receive a search warrant, they would have to have evidence to suggest they need a warrant?

Also to the floor plan, I thought I heard Jeremy Irwin state that their bedroom was on the opposite side of the house? Did anyone else see or hear that? Or did I imagine it?


He said the boys bedroom was on the opposite end of the house from the computer room. Another reason NG's floor plan can't be right.

Welcome Drinkitin!

In one of the recent interviews, when JI was asked why DB didn't hear the alleged *abductor* climbing into the computer room window, JI said his & DB's bedroom is on the "exact opposite side of the house" from the computer room.

I don't remember which interview, but I'll try to find it.

Dewey2Me1MoThyme
10-20-2011, 03:35 PM
What about the paper plates and napkins NG referred to, that later changed to baby wipes and baby food? I don't take any of these talking heads seriously, they twist and turn facts to add ratings.

KCMommie
10-20-2011, 03:36 PM
Welcome Drinkitin!

In one of the recent interviews, when JI was asked why DB didn't hear the alleged *abductor* climbing into the computer room window, JI said his & DB's bedroom is on the "exact opposite side of the house" from the computer room.

I don't remember which interview, but I'll try to find it.

I remember this is exactly what he said. I do believe it is a televised interview.

Dewey2Me1MoThyme
10-20-2011, 03:37 PM
I just can't understand why an intruder/kidnapper would put on accent lights and a pumpkin light. "Ooh, that lovely wall decoration would look so much better with an accent light on... now where is that baby I came here to snatch..."

It could have already been on, I doubt the neighbour would ahve saw if DB turned off each individual light in the home. If so, that is one nosey neighbour who must have been peering in the windows for some time> JMHO of course.

EllaMae
10-20-2011, 03:38 PM
That's one version of the story though, right? I think I've read other versions where the order of events are switched??? :waitasec: I'll have to go through the links, but didn't he at one point say that he checked on the boys first, and then in another article he said he looked in Lisa's room first. So, I think that's where some of the confusion comes in. I'm not saying he's "lying" but their have been some inconsistencies. I don't know if those inconsistencies are coming from him or from the reporting. MOO

He may have changed his account due to the stress and shock of the early days as well. He could have had a better memory later on when he was over the initial trauma of finding his baby missing.

Lera213
10-20-2011, 03:39 PM
Kansas City police Capt. Steve Young said that the parents of 11-month-old Lisa Irwin are still not cooperating with investigators.
by Karen Yancey/Staff 3:38 PM


Read more: http://livewire.kmbc.com/Event/Live_Blog_Amber_Alert_Issued_For_Missing_10-Month-Old#ixzz1bLvJblvZ

Abby Normal
10-20-2011, 03:43 PM
Well....I have been listening CAREFULLY to all the LE comments on the not cooperating thing, just to see what the conflict of information is, and it is definitely a matter of LE skewing the information a bit. They (LE) said that the parents HAVE spoken to them by phone on a number of occasions, but "they are not SITTING down with us on OUR TERMS and answering questions". That is pretty much a direct quote given on a number of statements from LE.

To me....that IS cooperation, just not allowing LE to have the kind of control and intimidation factors that LE would prefer during questioning.


jmo though

I noticed that the other day too. Young said something along the lines of "they are not answering the vital questions we need answered" and ok, sounds like they aren't cooperating. However, if the "vital question" is "where did you bury her" and (for the sake of argument) they didn't bury her- then they can't very well answer it. We know they are able to get in touch easy because they have consented to their home being searched nearly every day.

It sounds like they are willing to do anything except sit down for more interrogation, and they did 13 hours each of that so it isn't entirely unreasonable IMO. Police CAN force them to come in for questioning if they do actually need them for more interrogation. It sounds to me as if JI and DB are just no longer volunteering for interrogation.

Mountain_Kat
10-20-2011, 03:44 PM
There would have been no reason for him to automatically ASSUME that baby Lisa was gone/snatched/abducted when he looked or saw in her room that she was NOT in her bed(with or without the lights on).. Just like he DID NOT ASSUME automatically something was wrong when he saw that one of the boys was NOT IN HIS BED!!

It was only upon entering their bedroom where mom was sleeping that Jeremy would see that there is the son that WAS NOT IN HIS BED.. and I'm sure that was where he ASSUMED he'd find his daughter WHO WAS NOT IN HER BED!!

It's AT THAT POINT that he says that Lisa was NOT IN HER CRIB!! and supposedly Deb 's like, " what do you mean she's not in her crib? ".. Etc, Etc, Etc...

So, I do not understand why the negative response when IMO it wouldn't have made sense for him to be in freak out mode IMMEDIATELY SEEING LISA NOT IN HER CRIB.. he did not freak out immediately when he saw one son was not in his bed.. It was upon seeing that The one son was in bed with mom but there was NO LISA in the bed with mom/son THAT WOULD IMO CAUSE PANIC!! jmo, tho!

BBM

Not true. According to Jeremy and Debbie, Jeremy first noticed the front door open, the lights on, and the screen popped out of the bedroom window. He then goes back to his and Debbie's room and asks her why the lights are on, the door open, the window open, etc. According to Debbie, it's at this point that Jeremy says that Lisa's bedroom door was open and then supposedly runs to check on her (varying accounts on who he checked on first, Lisa or the boys, but we won't get into that here). It's at this point that Jeremy comes back and says to Debbie, "Where is Lisa?"

http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/lisa-irwin-a-look-inside-the-home-26863873.html#crsl=%252Fvideo%252Fus-15749625%252Flisa-irwin-a-look-inside-the-home-26863873.html

So, according to the story in this interview...Jeremy walked right past Lisa's open bedroom door (and with her bedroom lights on, according to the People mag article), tried to shut the window in the computer room and couldn't because of the screen, walked past Lisa's open (possibly lit up) bedroom to Debbie's room, and then started asking about the door, the lights, the window, the boy in her bed, etc. etc. The idea that Lisa might be missing doesn't come to him until after all this chatter about various other things.

But he walked past Lisa's bedroom TWICE. If he has ever said, at any time, that her nursery room light was on...then I'm going to come right out and say it...HE'S LYING about what happened when he came home that morning.

JMO, of course. ;)

LancelotLink
10-20-2011, 03:46 PM
Basement would be a logical place if there is a pool table.

Thanks. I'm pretty sure there is a pool table.

Mountain_Kat
10-20-2011, 03:48 PM
It's the same danged floor plan. NG Show swiped it and redid on their own computer system, using white, red, black for better viewing.

Where's the "second living room"? (I'm really sick of typing that now.) The other baths? Another floor altogether?

Debbie describes the computer as a sort of second livingroom. It's that room that runs from front to back of the house with the deck off the back. The "popped out window screen" room.

sorrell skye
10-20-2011, 03:49 PM
JI: "Our bedroom is on the exact opposite corner of the house and she sleeps with the fan on high."

@ about 3:18 in the video.

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/44927631#44927631

MissJames
10-20-2011, 03:50 PM
There would have been no reason for him to automatically ASSUME that baby Lisa was gone/snatched/abducted when he looked or saw in her room that she was NOT in her bed(with or without the lights on).. Just like he DID NOT ASSUME automatically something was wrong when he saw that one of the boys was NOT IN HIS BED!!

It was only upon entering their bedroom where mom was sleeping that Jeremy would see that there is the son that WAS NOT IN HIS BED.. and I'm sure that was where he ASSUMED he'd find his daughter WHO WAS NOT IN HER BED!!

It's AT THAT POINT that he says that Lisa was NOT IN HER CRIB!! and supposedly Deb 's like, " what do you mean she's not in her crib? ".. Etc, Etc, Etc...

So, I do not understand why the negative response when IMO it wouldn't have made sense for him to be in freak out mode IMMEDIATELY SEEING LISA NOT IN HER CRIB.. he did not freak out immediately when he saw one son was not in his bed.. It was upon seeing that The one son was in bed with mom but there was NO LISA in the bed with mom/son THAT WOULD IMO CAUSE PANIC!! jmo, tho!



IMOO the exact same reaction of Panic/"All Hell Broke Loose" would have occurred at that exact moment if baby Lisa Was found sleeping with mom and THE SON WAS NOT!!
IMO there was no reason for panic upon Jeremy seeing his son NOT IN HIS BED or Lisa NOT IN HER BED.. it would only be cause for alarm when getting to their bedroom and seeing that Lisa was not in the bed with mom and son.. I don't see how it makes sense for him to be panicked a moment BEFORE THIS TIME..

It's been my experience that ,sometimes in an emergency situation or an extraordinary event,it can take a few moments to process what you are seeing. Things are not the way you expected so your brain has to catch up. Your brain also protects your body from experiencing too much shock at a time. JMO

Lera213
10-20-2011, 03:50 PM
I think they are looking for either a stuffed animal, overnight bag, backpack, laundry bag or something like that. It was in the home and now not there. Lisa took it with them. If so I expect a search warrant on other families homes to be done at the same time looking for said item.

pferrin
10-20-2011, 03:51 PM
But it really doesn't matter who he exactly checked on first if he came in not expecting anybody to be missing. After he checks everybody then realizes the baby is not in her bed or moms bed, then panic sets in.


Actually the only thing that matters is inconsistent statements about arriving home. I agree it doesnt matter who he checked on first.

If he went into master and and spoke with DB..then why did he say he went to other end of house to..isnt lisas room next door?

Mountain_Kat
10-20-2011, 03:54 PM
Does anyone know where the steps are in the home leading to the basement and garage? I know they had questioned people who had assess to the garage so I was wondering what path a person would take if they came in through the garage. TIA!

In the video from inside the Irwin home, look where you see the bulletin board on the kitchen wall next to Lisa's bedroom door. I believe that is the wall that is the backside to the stairwell. So you'd walk through the front door, straight past the kitchen, turn right and see the basement door. (I think.)

newhere
10-20-2011, 03:54 PM
I think they are looking for either a stuffed animal, overnight bag, backpack, laundry bag or something like that. It was in the home and now not there. Lisa took it with them. If so I expect a search warrant on other families homes to be done at the same time looking for said item.

Suppose those cell phones are in that purple stuffed animal (Barney?) that she is seen holding....What better way to keep the police from finding them.

Marah
10-20-2011, 03:55 PM
There would have been no reason for him to automatically ASSUME that baby Lisa was gone/snatched/abducted when he looked or saw in her room that she was NOT in her bed(with or without the lights on).. Just like he DID NOT ASSUME automatically something was wrong when he saw that one of the boys was NOT IN HIS BED!!

It was only upon entering their bedroom where mom was sleeping that Jeremy would see that there is the son that WAS NOT IN HIS BED.. and I'm sure that was where he ASSUMED he'd find his daughter WHO WAS NOT IN HER BED!!

It's AT THAT POINT that he says that Lisa was NOT IN HER CRIB!! and supposedly Deb 's like, " what do you mean she's not in her crib? ".. Etc, Etc, Etc...

So, I do not understand why the negative response when IMO it wouldn't have made sense for him to be in freak out mode IMMEDIATELY SEEING LISA NOT IN HER CRIB.. he did not freak out immediately when he saw one son was not in his bed.. It was upon seeing that The one son was in bed with mom but there was NO LISA in the bed with mom/son THAT WOULD IMO CAUSE PANIC!! jmo, tho!



IMOO the exact same reaction of Panic/"All Hell Broke Loose" would have occurred at that exact moment if baby Lisa Was found sleeping with mom and THE SON WAS NOT!!
IMO there was no reason for panic upon Jeremy seeing his son NOT IN HIS BED or Lisa NOT IN HER BED.. it would only be cause for alarm when getting to their bedroom and seeing that Lisa was not in the bed with mom and son.. I don't see how it makes sense for him to be panicked a moment BEFORE THIS TIME..

Is this the first we are finding out that Lisa's light was on? I didn't know her light was on.

Donjeta
10-20-2011, 03:56 PM
It could have already been on, I doubt the neighbour would ahve saw if DB turned off each individual light in the home. If so, that is one nosey neighbour who must have been peering in the windows for some time> JMHO of course.

It's quite possible, the family members are most likely to put such lights on. But don't they talk? He would ask Deborah and she would say she put the lights on, and may have forgotten to turn them off, end of story. Instead it was presented as if evidence of an intruder being there but of course it would be no such thing if the light was already on.

SmoothOperator
10-20-2011, 03:56 PM
IMOO I agree that an intruder wouldn't be likely to turn on a decorative "pumpkin accent light".. IMOO a woman who'd had wine and was tipsy or smashed drunk would NOT THINK to have ever turned OFF a "pumpkin accent light"..

If it's anything like/similar to one I have that I used to put in my sons room when he was younger there's a reason it's dubbed an "accent light" because it is not bright but more illuminates a degree of light similar to that of a night light(but it is NOT a
Nightlight)..

Not only do I think she'd easily leave it on.. But even with it staying on it would still appear as tho all the lights were turned off(they likely were IMO just as the neighbor says).. It's not as tho she went over to the Irwin home and walked the perimeter closely looking at each window of each room to be certain each room was pitch black.. She saw the lights go off.. IMO a "pumpkin accent light" being STILL ON would not in anyway negate or make that statement incorrect or invalid..

Jmo, tho!

pferrin
10-20-2011, 04:01 PM
Suppose those cell phones are in that purple stuffed animal (Barney?) that she is seen holding....What better way to keep the police from finding them.

Hi Welcome newhere..glad to have ya...I been thinking bout what Barney might be holding as well.

Taminator
10-20-2011, 04:01 PM
He may have changed his account due to the stress and shock of the early days as well. He could have had a better memory later on when he was over the initial trauma of finding his baby missing.

I totally agree with this.

I was a victim of an armed robbery a few months ago. When the guy robbed me, I initially told police that he asked if we were still selling beer (He took beer, cigarettes, and money). It was only when the adrenaline stopped pumping and I was able to think more cleary that I remembered that he actually asked WHERE the beer was. That's what I told the detective on my next interview. My story didn't change, per se, but I was able to remember things that at first were clouded by shock and adrenaline. JM2cents :)

MissJames
10-20-2011, 04:02 PM
What about the paper plates and napkins NG referred to, that later changed to baby wipes and baby food? I don't take any of these talking heads seriously, they twist and turn facts to add ratings.

The paper plates and napkins were reported by others before NG came on .She was just repeating what everyone else was saying. It wasn't until they had the clerk on,that the baby food and wipes were mentioned.

Nagging question,why did Deb ring the wine up separately from the baby items? To hide the wine purchase?

It was reported that LE found a receipt that led them to the store. A lot was made of Casey Anthony not purchasing anything for Caylee in the target videos. Did Deb know this?

mamamia54
10-20-2011, 04:03 PM
Ok, so about the view of the back of the house, the camper is sort of in the middle so that would make the window at the far left the other computer room window and Lisa's room would be the next one to the right above the airconditioner unit? Just attempting to get my bearings.

Adding, wondering if they were sitting out on the deck? Which would be the sliding glass door, at the other end of the computer room.

Dr.Fessel
10-20-2011, 04:04 PM
They might have used xrays to look in the drain pipes in the house between the floor of the top floor and the ceiling of the basement.

illinialum
10-20-2011, 04:04 PM
BBM - Exactly my thought too!

IIRC the brother is age 20. I don't know the laws in MO, but here, if you even have a minor in the vehicle with you, it is illegal to purchase alcohol, certainly if they are in the store with you and :doh: hand you money at the register. Here, every person with you has to (or can be asked to) show valid id, no id = no sale. But, I'm not sure what MO law looks like. Also, our law says if the 20 yo is driving that is "illegal transportation". That transaction made me cringe, because of our laws... here, the cashier would face jail time + the store huge fines + with more than one offense would lose their license to sell alcohol. Once they get reinstated if it should happen again, the location loses the license forever - IOW if the store sells to new owners they can never get a license to sell alcohol due to prior issues. We're almost zero tolerance, so I had to assume MO is much more relaxed, but I dunno. Anyone local that has worked retail or knows a cashier or store owner?
JMO of course.

PS - If you all would kindly pause posting for 30 minutes I might actually be able to catch up before midnight this time. Thank you. :tongue:

In Missouri, it's legal to DRINK in the car as long as you're not the driver. I'm not sure what their other liquor laws are, but I've been told that Missouri has some of the lenient liquor laws.

Abby Normal
10-20-2011, 04:06 PM
Regarding JI changing his story slightly (lights on, where he checked first, etc)- let's remember that the Media has constantly muddled up the details and quotes in this case. Not just of them, the old "friends" who went on the record regarding their opinions of DB as well. Media just isn't really being very detail oriented here. I don't think it's really fair to take their media statements and compare them for accuracy.

Hopefully the LE is taking their statements and comparing them for accuracy though!

MissJames
10-20-2011, 04:07 PM
They might have used xrays to look in the drain pipes in the house between the floor of the top floor and the ceiling of the basement.

Edgar Allen Poe's "The Telltale Heart" comes to mind .

SmoothOperator
10-20-2011, 04:08 PM
With their having been dogs brought to the scene I am curious to know if anyone by chance has a link to where it states that they also had the dogs search the vehicles.. Yesterday I someone posted that the dogs did search the vehicles and there were no "hits/alerts" on either vehicle.. However this post stating this did not have a link stating this.. Does anyone know where this info came from and if it was stated/reported would you post the link?

IMO this would be an extremely important detail/info..

Because ATLEAST for me, if the parents are involved IMO that would mean baby Lisa is dead.. I do not believe for a minute that they would involve outside assistance EVER.. so, if true that the dogs did not alert on either vehicle for remains/decomp THAT WOULD BE A HUGE DETAIL WORKING AGAINST THE THEORY OF THE PARENTS INVOLVEMENT.. but jmo!!

TIA to anyone who may Post link or know where this specific info came from that was posted yesterday(I'll go back and search for the specific post for reference).. Maybe they'll be able to post where this info came from.

HatesSociopaths
10-20-2011, 04:12 PM
Something about finding a pentagram outside the house coming up next on Headline News.

MissJames
10-20-2011, 04:13 PM
Regarding JI changing his story slightly (lights on, where he checked first, etc)- let's remember that the Media has constantly muddled up the details and quotes in this case. Not just of them, the old "friends" who went on the record regarding their opinions of DB as well. Media just isn't really being very detail oriented here. I don't think it's really fair to take their media statements and compare them for accuracy.

Hopefully the LE is taking their statements and comparing them for accuracy though!

I also relayed my my own experience when my son had a seizure last Thursday. Everything happened so fast ,I was functioning,but later that day I couldn't remember the sequence of what happened between seeing him limp and getting him into the car.
My husband also commented "when I had my ears to his chest to make sure his breathing was okay" I don't remember that at all ,but I was right there.

And yes,the media often muddles up the facts. We have to weed through actual documents and comments from those involved to know what's really going on. JMO

AnaTeresa
10-20-2011, 04:16 PM
Something about finding a pentagram outside the house coming up next on Headline News.

Lovely. Can't wait to see the hysterical "satanic" media spin with this. Next thing we know, it'll be the daycare satanic abuse case all over again. :rolleyes:

21merc7
10-20-2011, 04:16 PM
Something about finding a pentagram outside the house coming up next on Headline News.

Related to this case?

If so, fine example of things not being twisted out of context. Heck, a teen could have done this for teen reasons. Happened in a case here. Don't know why media thinks pentagrams are a sign of anything other than teens being teens, but they push this angle every spec of a chance they can. Sigh.

Mountain_Kat
10-20-2011, 04:16 PM
The paper plates and napkins were reported by others before NG came on .She was just repeating what everyone else was saying. It wasn't until they had the clerk on,that the baby food and wipes were mentioned.

Nagging question,why did Deb ring the wine up separately from the baby items? To hide the wine purchase?

It was reported that LE found a receipt that led them to the store. A lot was made of Casey Anthony not purchasing anything for Caylee in the target videos. Did Deb know this?

Well, it looks like she hands the change to Little Brother, so...:waitasec: If he paid for the wine, I can't imagine he didn't stick around to drink it. I could understand her buying the wine separately to hide the purchase from hubby, but then, why hand Little Brother the change?

Nagging questions for me too.

21merc7
10-20-2011, 04:18 PM
I also relayed my my own experience when my son had a seizure last Thursday. Everything happened so fast ,I was functioning,but later that day I couldn't remember the sequence of what happened between seeing him limp and getting him into the car.
My husband also commented "when I had my ears to his chest to make sure his breathing was okay" I don't remember that at all ,but I was right there.

And yes,the media often muddles up the facts. We have to weed through actual documents and comments from those involved to know what's really going on. JMO

I'm with you on delayed memory. Any sort of trauma and I will have to slowly piece together what happened. My mind shuts down, I guess to absorb the shock, I really don't know why. Have entire years that are spotty b/c they were so bad. A friend will bring up something and here comes the technicolor memory out of nowhere.

MamaK
10-20-2011, 04:18 PM
Something about finding a pentagram outside the house coming up next on Headline News.

...and now we'll bring in the devil-worshippers. :crazy: What's next? Aliens? :floorlaugh:

Abby Normal
10-20-2011, 04:18 PM
He may have changed his account due to the stress and shock of the early days as well. He could have had a better memory later on when he was over the initial trauma of finding his baby missing.

And the science on memory consolidation tells us that these small variations are normal processes. We ALL "evolve" our memories, we just don't realize we do. As you discuss things and pull the memory out for inspection you can mildly alter it while it is "reconsolidating" so to say. While it's in short term, there is the tendency for us to revise our memories slightly so that they line up more with our thought out logic. This is why witness statements are taken as soon as possible and in isolation from other witnesses- those memories are very open for suggestion. Logically though, all of us think our memories are concrete, but they aren't.

It would actually be a bigger concern if the story was always the same phrasing. Consistent, but more likely rehearsed.

This of course does not account for major discrepancies such as 10:30 vs. 6:40 as last check.

Des2ny80
10-20-2011, 04:18 PM
Hello everyone...first post here. I just have a random thought about the light being on in her room. If I was to come home and notice my son's light was on at 3 in the am, - or whenever he did come home, that is the first place i would look. It is not normal for an 11 month old to have their light on that late in the evening. Also, didn't I hear somewhere that this is the first late night shift JI has worked, or worked in a while. Isn't this just weird the night he has to do a late night shift is the same night his daughter disappears?

HatesSociopaths
10-20-2011, 04:19 PM
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/5053/pentagram.png

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6690/fullshotpent.jpg

Mountain_Kat
10-20-2011, 04:20 PM
Lovely. Can't wait to see the hysterical "satanic" media spin with this. Next thing we know, it'll be the daycare satanic abuse case all over again. :rolleyes:

Well, Debbie does call it "The Omen House". :devil:

21merc7
10-20-2011, 04:21 PM
The Moon, the Stars and all, in the sewer. :rolleyes:

MamaK
10-20-2011, 04:22 PM
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/5053/pentagram.png

The star is pointing up, so it's a hippy Wiccan. :P I don't think the worshippers of mother earth took off with Lisa. I could be wrong though. It wouldn't be the first time. :)

AnaTeresa
10-20-2011, 04:22 PM
And the science on memory consolidation tells us that these small variations are normal processes. We ALL "evolve" our memories, we just don't realize we do. As you discuss things and pull the memory out for inspection you can mildly alter it while it is "reconsolidating" so to say. While it's in short term, there is the tendency for us to revise our memories slightly so that they line up more with our thought out logic. This is why witness statements are taken as soon as possible and in isolation from other witnesses- those memories are very open for suggestion. Logically though, all of us think our memories are concrete, but they aren't.

It would actually be a bigger concern if the story was always the same phrasing. Consistent, but more likely rehearsed.

This of course does not account for major discrepancies such as 10:30 vs. 6:40 as last check.

Very true! I learned this in my trial advocacy class. Small inconsistencies, like which lights were on, are actually normal. I could even see the change between 6:40 and 7:30, given the traumatic event.

6:40 and 10:30 is a significant inconsistency, and not something that could be changed by suggestible memory, recovery from trauma, etc. Possible to be explained by "I wanted to say I checked on her again because I didn't want anyone calling me a bad mother," but there has to be an explanation. That inconsistency isn't small enough to be a minor change.

Lera213
10-20-2011, 04:23 PM
investigative reporting....I'll give that a big "F" grade.

Minette
10-20-2011, 04:23 PM
I also relayed my my own experience when my son had a seizure last Thursday. Everything happened so fast ,I was functioning,but later that day I couldn't remember the sequence of what happened between seeing him limp and getting him into the car.
My husband also commented "when I had my ears to his chest to make sure his breathing was okay" I don't remember that at all ,but I was right there.

And yes,the media often muddles up the facts. We have to weed through actual documents and comments from those involved to know what's really going on. JMO

How frightening! I hope your son is OK now. :hug:

As for the 'pentagram' headline, all I can say is :nuts::nuts::nuts::ufo:

21merc7
10-20-2011, 04:24 PM
The star is pointing up, so it's a hippy Wiccan. :P I don't think the worshippers of mother earth took off with Lisa. I could be wrong though. It wouldn't be the first time. :)

There's a lovely 3/4 moon too! :crazy:

Mountain_Kat
10-20-2011, 04:25 PM
If the Irwins have a sewer inside their house, Imma hafta redo this floor plan. :(

askfornina
10-20-2011, 04:25 PM
investigative reporting....I'll give that a big "F" grade.

lol. it's highly ridiculous.

marge_rita
10-20-2011, 04:26 PM
The 6:40 when she put her to bed, possibly 7:30 checking on her cannot be confirmed but she originally said she checked on her at 10:30 which she re-canted. So we have almost 4 hours of more time that Lisa cannot be accounted for.

4 hours to possibly hide and move 'things'.

21merc7
10-20-2011, 04:26 PM
If the Irwins have a sewer inside their house, Imma hafta redo this floor plan. :(

Better add a Solar System too. I see we have work to do, lots of work to do!

:floorlaugh:

pferrin
10-20-2011, 04:26 PM
...and now we'll bring in the devil-worshippers. :crazy: What's next? Aliens? :floorlaugh:

Squirrel Pizza???? :truce::truce:

Taminator
10-20-2011, 04:27 PM
...and now we'll bring in the devil-worshippers. :crazy: What's next? Aliens? :floorlaugh:

My 8 yo called me an "alien" this morning. No idea why. lol

marge_rita
10-20-2011, 04:27 PM
And see - he failed to mention that in Megyn's interview. When MK asked what lights were on he said:

1) Light in the living room

2) 2 lights in the kitchen

3) "accent lights" in the computer room

4) a "pumpkin light" also in the computer room.

He never once mentioned the bedrooms and what lights he found on or off there.

I really want to know if the boy's bedroom light was on and if not then why not? An intruder wouldn't know who is in what bedroom without turning a light on - KWIM?

This edges even closer to the "perp" being someone known to that house!

JMHO

Dang good catch WOO. Every day we learn something new.

imo

frankie069
10-20-2011, 04:27 PM
First of all the pentagram if thats what it is doesnt even have a circle around it, this is kids playing around, secondly the pentagram does not symbolize devil worshipping either. Here is some info on what a pentagram stands for for those that want to do and Oh, how do we know thats not the star of David because they are the same thing..

Pentagram - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Oh and PS.. a satanic pentagram, the bottom point of the star is always quite a bit longer. They arent even and this one is..

In da Middle
10-20-2011, 04:27 PM
I totally agree with this.

I was a victim of an armed robbery a few months ago. When the guy robbed me, I initially told police that he asked if we were still selling beer (He took beer, cigarettes, and money). It was only when the adrenaline stopped pumping and I was able to think more cleary that I remembered that he actually asked WHERE the beer was. That's what I told the detective on my next interview. My story didn't change, per se, but I was able to remember things that at first were clouded by shock and adrenaline. JM2cents :)
Yes and the truth didn't change there either, just had more clarity with time to reflect.

Codger
10-20-2011, 04:29 PM
In Missouri, it's legal to DRINK in the car as long as you're not the driver. I'm not sure what their other liquor laws are, but I've been told that Missouri has some of the lenient liquor laws.
See now that'd be "open container" here, it's a no-no too.
Thanks for the info. to you + dave!


Oh, HELL no!!

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20537999,00.html

But when he peeked in on then 10-month-old daughter Lisa, her light was on and the crib was empty.

That, Irwin tells PEOPLE in this week's cover story, "is when all hell broke loose."

He walked through the unlocked front door, past Lisa's OPEN, lit up bedroom to the window in the computer room?! Never saw or suspected a thing until he's at the other end of the house talking to Debbie?!
I still have an issue with his arrival home supposedly at 3:30am + the 911 call not placed until 4:04am + then it being dispatched as "burglary in progress". I'll bet all hellfire did break loose, but not so much the way JI is portrayed in this quote. MOO! I just don't believe a word from them any longer. Sadly too, because I was quite solidly perched on that fence. Where is Lisa???

In da Middle
10-20-2011, 04:30 PM
In Missouri, it's legal to DRINK in the car as long as you're not the driver. I'm not sure what their other liquor laws are, but I've been told that Missouri has some of the lenient liquor laws.
Not exactly true. There is an open container law. I just dont know how often they enforce it though.

laura.anne
10-20-2011, 04:31 PM
First of all the pentagram if thats what it is doesnt even have a circle around it, this is kids playing around, secondly the pentagram does not symbolize devil worshipping either. Here is some info on what a pentagram stands for for those that want to do and Oh, how do we know thats not the star of David because they are the same thing..

Pentagram - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagram)

Oh and PS.. a satanic pentagram, the bottom point of the star is always quite a bit longer. They arent even and this one is..
Great info, just one minor thing, that the Star of David is a six pointed star whereas a pentagram has five points.

curiousc
10-20-2011, 04:31 PM
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/5053/pentagram.png

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6690/fullshotpent.jpg

On the next edition of "What Will the Think of Next?"

Seriously? This is reporting at it's finest.

Codger
10-20-2011, 04:31 PM
Something about finding a pentagram outside the house coming up next on Headline News.

Oh get outta here, you're pulling my leg now!! :snooty:

AnaTeresa
10-20-2011, 04:33 PM
The thing is, this is clearly teenage graffiti by some kids who think they're being "edgy." Most wiccans/pagans/witches I know don't bother to go around tagging sewers.

21merc7
10-20-2011, 04:33 PM
Actually, it is 2 stars and a 3/4 moon!

Now I can't stop laughing...........

Kimster
10-20-2011, 04:33 PM
...and now we'll bring in the devil-worshippers. :crazy: What's next? Aliens? :floorlaugh:

Watch it. :kimsterwink:

In da Middle
10-20-2011, 04:34 PM
With their having been dogs brought to the scene I am curious to know if anyone by chance has a link to where it states that they also had the dogs search the vehicles.. Yesterday I someone posted that the dogs did search the vehicles and there were no "hits/alerts" on either vehicle.. However this post stating this did not have a link stating this.. Does anyone know where this info came from and if it was stated/reported would you post the link?

IMO this would be an extremely important detail/info..

Because ATLEAST for me, if the parents are involved IMO that would mean baby Lisa is dead.. I do not believe for a minute that they would involve outside assistance EVER.. so, if true that the dogs did not alert on either vehicle for remains/decomp THAT WOULD BE A HUGE DETAIL WORKING AGAINST THE THEORY OF THE PARENTS INVOLVEMENT.. but jmo!!

TIA to anyone who may Post link or know where this specific info came from that was posted yesterday(I'll go back and search for the specific post for reference).. Maybe they'll be able to post where this info came from.
it was filmed early on showing the dogs around the vehicles, presumably searching them. Seems likely as why would you have the dogs searching the house and yard and not the vehicles when they are right next to them? I dont remember either where it was stated that they did not alert, but did see it also.

al66pine
10-20-2011, 04:34 PM
Hello, all,
Several people have posted comments about intruders & lights, like:

An intruder wouldn't know which bedroom was Lisa's without turning on a light.

If a person planned to enter a house in darkness
(I think hrs. between 6:40pm, 10:30pm & 4:00am would be dark in KC, Mo. 2+ wks ago),
isn't there a chance/ good chance/ darned good chance,

whether familiar w. the floorplan & furniture arrangement or not,

that the person w/TAKE A FLASHLIGHT ALONG, to help navigate.

If familiar w. house, floorplan, furniture & inhabitants,
the person might anticipate that 3 young children & dog move things,
and would want to avoid stepping on squeaky dog toys, talking dolls, etc.

If not familiar, the person might anticipate the above & worse.

Lights, esp. specific lights, being off or on, may have evidentiary value of something,
but I wonder if they point to the intruder as being someone unfamiliar w. home, floorplan, residents.

To reduce chances of being detected, those wandering in dark homes can place a red filter on flashlight lens.
Also helps keep night vision.
Btw, works in own home, to check on the bambino in crib.

mck16
10-20-2011, 04:34 PM
See now that'd be "open container" here, it's a no-no too.
Thanks for the info. to you + dave!


I still have an issue with his arrival home supposedly at 3:30am + the 911 call not placed until 4:04am + then it being dispatched as "burglary in progress". I'll bet all hellfire did break loose, but not so much the way JI is portrayed in this quote. MOO! I just don't believe a word from them any longer. Sadly too, because I was quite solidly perched on that fence. Where is Lisa???

Oh wow. I have always thought he got home at 4:00 so now it is reported he got home at 3:30? I did not know that.

Mountain_Kat
10-20-2011, 04:35 PM
I'm already designing my "Free The KC Three" shirts. ;)

Minette
10-20-2011, 04:36 PM
It's strange how the liquor laws vary from state to state. Heck, Louisiana has drive through daiquiri joints! Of course, those are only for passengers in the vehicle. The drivers who go to those places never drink them until they are at home at their own kitchen tables. :floor laugh:

I don't know what conclusion to draw from DB's brother buying the infamous box o' wine, except that if the brand was Franzia, that stuff is NASTY.

frankie069
10-20-2011, 04:37 PM
Great info, just one minor thing, that the Star of David is a six pointed star whereas a pentagram has five points.

I think the point I was trying to make is that all of them came from basically the same place. Slight variations to them. This is by no means a satanic pentagram, I have seen many of them in my life time I hate to say. That star they showed is more like, well a star like you would use to grade a paper or something, it doesnt match anything even close to a type of religious symbol. The media will truly do anything for ratings..

Lera213
10-20-2011, 04:40 PM
I'm already designing my "Free The KC Three" shirts. ;)

lol, you got a lot of sleep...you're in rare form today. :floorlaugh:

Codger
10-20-2011, 04:41 PM
Oh wow. I have always thought he got home at 4:00 so now it is reported he got home at 3:30? I did not know that.

Yes, originally they said "around 4am" which was clarified to be 3:30am a day or two later. You can find this in the timeline for reference. So I don't get smacked for no link ;)

BetteDavisEyes
10-20-2011, 04:41 PM
I'm not going to quote any of several posts above that address the topic of facts remembered, but I will share a personal experience that I've recalled while reading here.

When I was in 10th grade (1966), I stopped at the public library on my way home from school one afternoon to get some books for an assignment. While I was there, I saw a female classmate of my brother's who lived a couple of blocks from us. We left the library together and were approached by two rather threatening looking girls as we walked home. They grabbed our purses, took any money that they could find, dropped the purses, then ran. This happened so quickly that neither of us realized what had happened!

Still stunned, we walked the rest of the way to the corner of my street where I turned right, and she went left to her home on another street. I had regained my composure from the unfortunate incident that had "cost" me only a few dollars that I had in my small changepurse and wasn't going to say anything to my mom or dad about what had happened. Within an hour or so, the other girl's parents called my home, and I was forced to admit what had happened. Since the other girl's parents had already contacted the police, they called me to get details about the incident.

A detective came to our home, and I reiterated my perception of the incident. During the course of the evening, there were subsequent phone calls from other LE, and I asked my dad why they kept making me tell them the same thing over and over and over again. Dad said, "They are making sure that you have your facts in order and that your recollection of the incident and description of the (perpetrators) isn't changing." In his own way, Dad let me know that "the truth remains constant." jmo

Codger
10-20-2011, 04:43 PM
I'm already designing my "Free The KC Three" shirts. ;)

:slap:

WAIT, who is the third?! One Misskelly (sp?) would wrap this right up!

:floorlaugh:

davehead21
10-20-2011, 04:44 PM
Not exactly true. There is an open container law. I just dont know how often they enforce it though.

Actually, the poster was correct-- there is no open container law in Missouri. Some counties and cities have their own open container law but it's not a state law.

http://ipp.missouri.edu/files/ipp/attachments/missouri_state_and_local_open_container_laws.pdf

Bemsmom
10-20-2011, 04:44 PM
To reduce chances of being detected, those wandering in dark homes can place a red filter on flashlight lens.
Also helps keep night vision.
Btw, works in own home, to check on the bambino in crib.

Good point. An intruder is unlikely to turn on a light, let alone every light, and risk being detected. Unless they didn't care about getting caught.

laura.anne
10-20-2011, 04:46 PM
I think the point I was trying to make is that all of them came from basically the same place. Slight variations to them. This is by no means a satanic pentagram, I have seen many of them in my life time I hate to say. That star they showed is more like, well a star like you would use to grade a paper or something, it doesnt match anything even close to a type of religious symbol. The media will truly do anything for ratings..

Oh yes I definitely agree with you. Sorry if I seemed like I was being a know it all or going way OT.

MamaK
10-20-2011, 04:46 PM
The thing is, this is clearly teenage graffiti by some kids who think they're being "edgy." Most wiccans/pagans/witches I know don't bother to go around tagging sewers.

Oh, come on now, I totally see my wiccan friends running around with spray paint... goes with the flowing skirts and candles... but only if it's organic vegan paint. :floorlaugh: I'll be quiet now. :innocent:

Emeralgem
10-20-2011, 04:46 PM
It's strange how the liquor laws vary from state to state. Heck, Louisiana has drive through daiquiri joints! Of course, those are only for passengers in the vehicle. The drivers who go to those places never drink them until they are at home at their own kitchen tables. :floor laugh:

I don't know what conclusion to draw from DB's brother buying the infamous box o' wine, except that if the brand was Franzia, that stuff is NASTY.

O/T BBM.. Now thats a BIG whopper for sure...LOL..JMHO

JeannaT
10-20-2011, 04:47 PM
Yes, originally they said "around 4am" which was clarified to be 3:30am a day or two later. You can find this in the timeline for reference. So I don't get smacked for no link ;)

At what point did he realize Lisa was gone? I could imagine him coming home, thinking huh she left the lights on and the door unlocked, wonder how much of that box of wine is left.

OR, maybe he thought she left the door unlocked and the lights on as a courtesy to him. This was his first shift to be arriving at 4, she wouldn't have an established pattern of locking down the house when he was coming home. Don't know.

So maybe he fixed a sandwich, sat down to surf the net, and it was only when he was ready to go to bed that he said hey why are all the lights on, and then they checked the kids.

They may have called 911 within moments of finding her not in her crib. Again, I don't know.

Abby Normal
10-20-2011, 04:47 PM
I also relayed my my own experience when my son had a seizure last Thursday. Everything happened so fast ,I was functioning,but later that day I couldn't remember the sequence of what happened between seeing him limp and getting him into the car.
My husband also commented "when I had my ears to his chest to make sure his breathing was okay" I don't remember that at all ,but I was right there.

And yes,the media often muddles up the facts. We have to weed through actual documents and comments from those involved to know what's really going on. JMO

yes, I related the same thing from when my youngest went missing. She had just wandered into someone's backyard that we don't know- in the 2 minutes I was distracted- but I was a blubbering idiot until she was found. I even stopped talking to the police officer trying to get her description to tell my neighbors when they walked up. :banghead: I couldn't form a complete thought. I think intense adrenaline does really funny thing to our body chemistry.

For what it's worth- the first seizure or two are the hardest. I still feel traumatized by my (other) daughter's first seizure. Hopefully there aren't more to worry about, but if there are you'll be much more prepared for it. Wish you didn't have to deal with it at all though, of course.

curiousc
10-20-2011, 04:48 PM
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/5053/pentagram.png

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6690/fullshotpent.jpg

Back to this tunnel. Is this in the front or back of the house?

LancelotLink
10-20-2011, 04:51 PM
Watch it. :kimsterwink:

Ehem, :seeya: GreenGoddess, there were sightings over KC Oct. 3,4,5.
UFO Sighting Kansas City, Missouri - October 3rd, 4th & 5th! 80+ Witnesses!! - YouTube

Codger
10-20-2011, 04:52 PM
At what point did he realize Lisa was gone? I could imagine him coming home, thinking huh she left the lights on and the door unlocked, wonder how much of that box of wine is left.

OR, maybe he thought she left the door unlocked and the lights on as a courtesy to him. This was his first shift to be arriving at 4, she wouldn't have an established pattern of locking down the house when he was coming home. Don't know.

So maybe he fixed a sandwich, sat down to surf the net, and it was only when he was ready to go to bed that he said hey why are all the lights on, and then they checked the kids.

They may have called 911 within moments of finding her not in her crib. Again, I don't know.

According to his own words he noticed the open window as he pulled up to the house + he hasn't as of yet mentioned a sandwich or anything else, but that he went in, to close the window, saw lights on, door unlocked, etc. + so forth. I'll give the 4 minutes to walk in, through, check rooms + get to DB, maybe a couple more to check crib, etc. but 34 is a LOT of minutes when you think your baby is missing. Moreso if there is a burglary "in progress" - MOO of course.

frankie069
10-20-2011, 04:54 PM
Oh yes I definitely agree with you. Sorry if I seemed like I was being a know it all or going way OT.

Not at all.. God I say it on here and every other place I post.. I feel like I must sound nasty when I reply, I apologize again for that. I think I type the way that I talk and because my inflection cannot be heard it makes it hard to decipher.. Please dont apologize it is probably me.. I am sure it is me.. I type fast so I dont pay attention sometimes to exactly how I word things... Sorry..:(:(

curiousc
10-20-2011, 04:54 PM
Ehem, :seeya: GreenGoddess, there were sightings over KC Oct. 3,4,5.
UFO Sighting Kansas City, Missouri - October 3rd, 4th & 5th! 80+ Witnesses!! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWPKnz6Okb4)

:abduction:

Oh boy! :floorlaugh:

ClaireNC
10-20-2011, 04:54 PM
Wow, I was gone a few hours and this story has gone to places unknown to me.

Does anybody else feel that the public is starting to loose interest? Yesterday we had over 600 guests viewing the website, today its down considerably.

Look at the Aliayah Lunsford thread, only 3 years old, and nearly forgotten within a month. Or Katelyn Markham, a budding woman in her early 20's and missing since July. Her thread is far down the list.

curiousc
10-20-2011, 04:56 PM
Wow, I was gone a few hours and this story has gone to places unknown to me.

Does anybody else feel that the public is starting to loose interest? Yesterday we had over 600 guests viewing the website, today its down considerably.

Look at the Aliayah Lunsford thread, only 3 years old, and nearly forgotten within a month. Or Katelyn Markham, a budding woman in her early 20's and missing since July. Her thread is far down the list.

So quiet today. Yet, so much has gone on over the past few weeks. But what is sad is that if they don't find Lisa, it will become more quiet as how it is with other cases.

Maybe this is the calm before the storm.

Donjeta
10-20-2011, 04:57 PM
Re: the search warrants again, DB may be feeling frustrated and angry that they're tearing their house apart but if there is a trial against a stranger abductor some day it will increase the chances that Lisa gets justice. If the police haven't done everything in their power to rule out the parents it'll be one strike for the defense who will present the parents as the alternative theory number one.

zpz1
10-20-2011, 04:58 PM
I'm guessing there was no baby monitor in the home? I haven't heard it mentioned..

mck16
10-20-2011, 04:58 PM
With their having been dogs brought to the scene I am curious to know if anyone by chance has a link to where it states that they also had the dogs search the vehicles.. Yesterday I someone posted that the dogs did search the vehicles and there were no "hits/alerts" on either vehicle.. However this post stating this did not have a link stating this.. Does anyone know where this info came from and if it was stated/reported would you post the link?

IMO this would be an extremely important detail/info..

Because ATLEAST for me, if the parents are involved IMO that would mean baby Lisa is dead.. I do not believe for a minute that they would involve outside assistance EVER.. so, if true that the dogs did not alert on either vehicle for remains/decomp THAT WOULD BE A HUGE DETAIL WORKING AGAINST THE THEORY OF THE PARENTS INVOLVEMENT.. but jmo!!

TIA to anyone who may Post link or know where this specific info came from that was posted yesterday(I'll go back and search for the specific post for reference).. Maybe they'll be able to post where this info came from.

I for one posted this yesterday. I did not post a link with it because there were many on the board and everyone was watching this and commenting. The link would be from whoever has the helicopter because it was an over head shot showing the dog, a spaniel, in the back yard and then moved to the driveway. There were two vehicles he was asked to enter. I remember one was a station wagon. He jumped in and out and back in and this occurred on both vehicles. The dog never stopped just jumped in and back out.

I did not think he alerted based on information I have read here and other places. So those were my own words. The dog did spend a lot of time in the back yard, and I was thinking yesterday that might be why they got the warrant and came back..I did see the dog sit down near the shed but not saying he alerted because I don't know wasn't there.

Did not see the dog in the house because the shot most of us were watching was the overhead helicopter. Maybe someone else has a link because there were many people on this forum watching this take place.

I hope this helps. jmo

frankie069
10-20-2011, 04:58 PM
Just in case I missed anything, have we heard anything at all on the search. Have either parent been seen today and do we know if they are allowed back into the house at all yet? I was truly hoping against hope of an arrest today but I guess not..

Scamperoo
10-20-2011, 04:58 PM
The thing is, this is clearly teenage graffiti by some kids who think they're being "edgy." Most wiccans/pagans/witches I know don't bother to go around tagging sewers.


I hate how such insignificant graffiti by immature persons unknown can be used to imply some sort of satanic connection in the disappearance of little Lisa.

This very ancient symbol has been used in most if not all religions including Christianity where it denotes the five wounds of Christ.

Having said that I suppose Vinny is trying to sensationalize every angle he can, it's a dirty job but someone has to do it....

mck16
10-20-2011, 04:59 PM
I'm guessing there was no baby monitor in the home? I haven't heard it mentioned..

Has been reported that there was, but she did not hear it.

Bemsmom
10-20-2011, 04:59 PM
Wow, I was gone a few hours and this story has gone to places unknown to me.

Does anybody else feel that the public is starting to loose interest? Yesterday we had over 600 guests viewing the website, today its down considerably.

Look at the Aliayah Lunsford thread, only 3 years old, and nearly forgotten within a month. Or Katelyn Markham, a budding woman in her early 20's and missing since July. Her thread is far down the list.

In keeping with this thought....

http://voices.kansascity.com/entries/ignore-publicity-hounds-and-keep-searching-lisa-irwin/

gitana1
10-20-2011, 04:59 PM
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/5053/pentagram.png

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6690/fullshotpent.jpg


investigative reporting....I'll give that a big "F" grade.

Oh my gosh. This is too much! First, highly selective reports from teen friends about how DB snuck into clubs while underage, with everything positive purposefully omitted and now this. The minute a case goes the Satan route, I really doubt the guilt of anyone accused and view the area as backwards and small-minded. Sorry.

Luckily, it's just the media doing this unethical and ridiculous reporting and making such ridiculous and unethical inferences. I believe LE and the DA have remained on task and professional. When they start making inferences about devil worship or, (and here's another one that sets me off), starts casting aspersions about DB's sexuality, then I will have a very hard time believing a darn thing they have to say.

But the local media should be ashamed. If I lived in the area, I would be extremely annoyed. IMO, their reporting casts a bad light on the area in general, whether fairly or not.

LancelotLink
10-20-2011, 04:59 PM
Wow, I was gone a few hours and this story has gone to places unknown to me.

Does anybody else feel that the public is starting to loose interest? Yesterday we had over 600 guests viewing the website, today its down considerably.

Look at the Aliayah Lunsford thread, only 3 years old, and nearly forgotten within a month. Or Katelyn Markham, a budding woman in her early 20's and missing since July. Her thread is far down the list.

I hope no one is losing interest. I think with the search yesterday came the big numbers. Today it is quieter, allowing some of us to do what we do, sleuthing. This is when we get dangerous.

newhere
10-20-2011, 05:00 PM
Do we know who besides the immediate family saw the baby either that day or the previous day?

Interrobang
10-20-2011, 05:04 PM
Nagging question,why did Deb ring the wine up separately from the baby items? To hide the wine purchase?

My ex-friend (the one with the drug problems) used to ring alcohol up separately and pretend it was a purchase for someone else. It could just be addict behavior.

goldringstx
10-20-2011, 05:06 PM
Is this the first day without a physical search of a location?

AlmostGone
10-20-2011, 05:06 PM
Re: the search warrants again, DB may be feeling frustrated and angry that they're tearing their house apart but if there is a trial against a stranger abductor some day it will increase the chances that Lisa gets justice. If the police haven't done everything in their power to rule out the parents it'll be one strike for the defense who will present the parents as the alternative theory number one.

If my baby came up missing I'd beg the police to look at everything in my house and get all the finger prints they can.. I'd also probably be terrified to be alone.. Does anyone know if families are afraid to be home alone after a kidnapping?

gitana1
10-20-2011, 05:07 PM
In keeping with this thought....

http://voices.kansascity.com/entries/ignore-publicity-hounds-and-keep-searching-lisa-irwin/

Excellent, excellent article. Well worth the read. Thank you!


I hate how such insignificant graffiti by immature persons unknown can be used to imply some sort of satanic connection in the disappearance of little Lisa.

This very ancient symbol has been used in most if not all religions including Christianity where it denotes the five wounds of Christ.

Having said that I suppose Vinny is trying to sensationalize every angle he can, it's a dirty job but someone has to do it....

Ho ho! How did I miss that that was an HLN report! I guess I have to modify my earlier statements about small-minded local media and backwards and small-minded locals! Since HLN is a national news broadcaster, then does that mean that America as a whole is small-minded and backwards? Or is the just the worst in sensationalist broadcasting that draws more laughs than interest? I hope, for our sakes, that it's the latter.

gitana1
10-20-2011, 05:09 PM
I hope no one is losing interest. I think with the search yesterday came the big numbers. Today it is quieter, allowing some of us to do what we do, sleuthing. This is when we get dangerous.

Also, 300 viewing is a healthy number. I was surprised not to see an arrest or a body found when I saw the number at around 600 yesterday.

pferrin
10-20-2011, 05:10 PM
Ehem, :seeya: GreenGoddess, there were sightings over KC Oct. 3,4,5.
UFO Sighting Kansas City, Missouri - October 3rd, 4th & 5th! 80+ Witnesses!! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWPKnz6Okb4)

Kimster..you have company :great::great:

Lera213
10-20-2011, 05:10 PM
Also, 300 viewing is a healthy number. I was surprised not to see an arrest or a body found when I saw the number at around 600 yesterday.

They are here reading waiting for MK to make another funny remark. :great:

Patty G
10-20-2011, 05:11 PM
I'm guessing there was no baby monitor in the home? I haven't heard it mentioned..

IIRC, DB stated she had the baby monitor on.

joint-heir
10-20-2011, 05:13 PM
Do we know who besides the immediate family saw the baby either that day or the previous day?



Yes, I haven't seen any info on who saw Lisa last other than mother? Was father sitting with kids while she was at store around 5? Was she back in time for him to leave for work at 5:20 which he said he did?

Lera213
10-20-2011, 05:13 PM
IIRC, DB stated she had the baby monitor on.

yes she did with Megan Kelly interview

Abby Normal
10-20-2011, 05:19 PM
I'm not going to quote any of several posts above that address the topic of facts remembered, but I will share a personal experience that I've recalled while reading here.

When I was in 10th grade (1966), I stopped at the public library on my way home from school one afternoon to get some books for an assignment. While I was there, I saw a female classmate of my brother's who lived a couple of blocks from us. We left the library together and were approached by two rather threatening looking girls as we walked home. They grabbed our purses, took any money that they could find, dropped the purses, then ran. This happened so quickly that neither of us realized what had happened!

Still stunned, we walked the rest of the way to the corner of my street where I turned right, and she went left to her home on another street. I had regained my composure from the unfortunate incident that had "cost" me only a few dollars that I had in my small changepurse and wasn't going to say anything to my mom or dad about what had happened. Within an hour or so, the other girl's parents called my home, and I was forced to admit what had happened. Since the other girl's parents had already contacted the police, they called me to get details about the incident.

A detective came to our home, and I reiterated my perception of the incident. During the course of the evening, there were subsequent phone calls from other LE, and I asked my dad why they kept making me tell them the same thing over and over and over again. Dad said, "They are making sure that you have your facts in order and that your recollection of the incident and description of the (perpetrators) isn't changing." In his own way, Dad let me know that "the truth remains constant." jmo

Yes, generally speaking truth is constant. But if you and your friends were held at gunpoint where life is threatened and your thought clarity was more clouded by cortisol and adrenaline- then it may not have been as clear.

google- cortisol adrenaline and memory. There are tons of research articles on it. Cortisol specifically affects memory formation and retrieval.

josie1986
10-20-2011, 05:20 PM
IIRC, DB stated she had the baby monitor on.

i wonder if they found in when searching the house. i'd love to know,if not that would be another thing that would make me a bit suspicious.:twocents:

nursebeeme
10-20-2011, 05:24 PM
My ex-friend (the one with the drug problems) used to ring alcohol up separately and pretend it was a purchase for someone else. It could just be addict behavior.

I have often wondered if the baby items were purchased using some sort of state funded card that wouldn't cover the purchase of alcohol? not sure if they receive any aid, etc.. but it would make sense?:twocents:

pinkfly
10-20-2011, 05:27 PM
My 8 yo called me an "alien" this morning. No idea why. lol

Mine asked which planets the illegal ones came from and which planets were legal to come from.

SinKittyVixen
10-20-2011, 05:27 PM
eek yes. Shouldve researched that better. Thought I had new info..
Someone RT'd it, i thought it was new.. sorry!! my bad!

BetteDavisEyes
10-20-2011, 05:30 PM
I have often wondered if the baby items were purchased using some sort of state funded card that wouldn't cover the purchase of alcohol? not sure if they receive any aid, etc.. but it would make sense?:twocents:

I posted about Deborah having a Bridge Card (food stamps) several days ago. In Michigan, alcohol and tobacco products can't be purchased with the Bridge Card, but I'm not aware of other restrictions. Given the fact that DB is a single mother with dependent children and is still legally married to someone other than JI, she might qualify for government assistance. jmo

http://websleuths.com/forums/search.php?searchid=4791742&pp=50&page=4

JeannaT
10-20-2011, 05:32 PM
eek yes. Shouldve researched that better. Thought I had new info..
Someone RT'd it, i thought it was new.. sorry!! my bad!

no worries ;D

JeannaT
10-20-2011, 05:32 PM
I posted about Deborah having a Bridge Card (food stamps) several days ago. In Michigan, alcohol and tobacco products can't be purchased with the Bridge Card, but I'm not aware of other restrictions. Given the fact that DB is a single mother with dependent children and is still legally married to someone other than JI, she might qualify for government assistance. jmo

Are you wondering if maybe she has a Bridge card, or do you know it for sure? I hadn't seen this mentioned.

Patty G
10-20-2011, 05:32 PM
I have often wondered if the baby items were purchased using some sort of state funded card that wouldn't cover the purchase of alcohol? not sure if they receive any aid, etc.. but it would make sense?:twocents:

Maybe the neighbor bought the wine. Someone earlier in the week mentioned something about baby food could be purchased on a card (food stamps) however, the baby wipes wouldn't be covered.

Lera213
10-20-2011, 05:33 PM
DB is married to her first husband who is in the military, she has to report her income which is zilch, she has to report child support which I'm sure she is getting because if not the gov would go after the husband for that child support when your on welfare right? That would mean trouble for her first husband. I say she had wic and food stamps only.

SinKittyVixen
10-20-2011, 05:36 PM
This is new.. to me anyway.. HLN:

VinniePolitan @Vinnie Politan
A pentagram found in a tunnel behind Baby Lisa's house. #BabyLisa yfrog.com/gzv3asej

its probably not related, who knows? I thought it was an interesting find..

curiositycat
10-20-2011, 05:38 PM
I'm guessing there was no baby monitor in the home? I haven't heard it mentioned..
There was a baby monitor in the home, and it has been mentioned often. DB said that it was on, but she heard nothing.

If you can find a link to the Fox News MK interview, she asked her that very question..again.

She has been asked the question many, many times. It's usually repeated in the same sentence as the barking dog question. :innocent:

frankie069
10-20-2011, 05:39 PM
DB is married to her first husband who is in the military, she has to report her income which is zilch, she has to report child support which I'm sure she is getting because if not the gov would go after the husband for that child support when your on welfare right? That would mean trouble for her first husband. I say she had wic and food stamps only.

Actually with her husband who is getting combat pay right now and the fact that she lives with JI and has a child with him I cant see how she can qualify for anything at all. You are talking a bit of money there coming in. Like you said, his child support would automatically come out of his check because they arent living together and their child together would also have all VA benefits and so would she because they arent divorced so technically her husband paid for Lisa's birth too. Cant remove someone from your health benefits or any VA benefits without being divorced.. (yes this i know for fact).

BetteDavisEyes
10-20-2011, 05:41 PM
Are you wondering if maybe she has a Bridge card, or do you know it for sure? I hadn't seen this mentioned.

The Bridge Card is indigenous to Michigan and is the method by which qualified recipients receive "food stamps" - government assistance to low-income families.

No, I don't know for a fact that DB qualifies for government assistance, nor have I ever stated same. I merely suggested it as a possibility for the reason that a wine purchase was paid for separately from other items that DB bought at the same time. jmo

Lera213
10-20-2011, 05:43 PM
Actually with her husband who is getting combat pay right now and the fact that she lives with JI and has a child with him I cant see how she can qualify for anything at all. You are talking a bit of money there coming in. Like you said, his child support would automatically come out of his check because they arent living together and their child together would also have all VA benefits and so would she because they arent divorced so technically her husband paid for Lisa's birth too. Cant remove someone from your health benefits or any VA benefits without being divorced.. (yes this i know for fact).

He would get in a lot of trouble once and if DFAS researches his pay. She won't face any penalty's except maybe welfare fraud depending on what she reported.

peeples
10-20-2011, 05:45 PM
He would get in a lot of trouble once and if DFAS researches his pay. She won't face any penalty's except maybe welfare fraud depending on what she reported.

Another missing little girls mother was just charged with welfare fraud.........

SmoothOperator
10-20-2011, 05:46 PM
I'm not going to quote any of several posts above that address the topic of facts remembered, but I will share a personal experience that I've recalled while reading here.

When I was in 10th grade (1966), I stopped at the public library on my way home from school one afternoon to get some books for an assignment. *While I was there, I saw a female classmate of my brother's who lived a couple of blocks from us. *We left the library together and were approached by two rather threatening looking girls as we walked home. *They grabbed our purses, took any money that they could find, dropped the purses, then ran. *This happened so quickly that neither of us realized what had happened! *

Still stunned, we walked the rest of the way to the corner of my street where I turned right, and she went left to her home on another street. *I had regained my composure from the unfortunate incident that had "cost" me only a few dollars that I had in my small changepurse and wasn't going to say anything to my mom or dad about what had happened. *Within an hour or so, the other girl's parents called my home, and I was forced to admit what had happened. *Since the other girl's parents had already contacted the police, they called me to get details about the incident.

A detective came to our home, and I reiterated my perception of the incident. *During the course of the evening, there were subsequent phone calls from other LE, and I asked my dad why they kept making me tell them the same thing over and over and over again. *Dad said, "They are making sure that you have your facts in order and that your recollection of the incident and description of the (perpetrators) isn't changing." *In his own way, Dad let me know that "the truth remains constant." *jmo

While I understand what you're saying there is however more to the truth and it being recalled and relayed from a high stress, adrenaline surging, traumatic event or incident.. It is much more complex than just repeating the same exact words repeatedly word for word..*

I am NOT attempting to be argumentative but rather only want to show that a PERSON's repeating the same exact words, word for word, and detail for detail is not Indicative that what they're repeating over and over is a true or factual event.. Nor does a person who does not repeat or even remember certain details.. Or as time passes and shock wears off they may remember or recall certain details clearer*Of the traumatic event.. These things do NOT make their account of event false or lies.. And that in traumatic events it is normal and occurs regularly where after the event there may even be details you have zero memory of or an unclear fuzzy memory of.. MissJames shared an extremely personal experience that just happened within this past week that is a perfect example of what I am describing.. Here it is below for those who may not have read it:

Originally Posted by MissJames
I've been grappling with whether or not I should share this. I've decided
to share some of what happened to us yesterday morning.
My youngest is medically complicated and developmentally disabled. He's been very healthy for years now.
We had, what could have been, a medical emergency as we were getting ready for school. He had a seizure ,but we weren't sure what was happening at the time.

Because we have a routine I was barely registering what exactly was going on .My husband and I were focused on the news because of the blackberry e-mail problem.
I won't go into any more detail and my son is fine,but what I discovered was,I can't tell you when he came down and got on the couch behind me or when the seizure started.I can't tell you if he had any jerking prior to when I realized he was limp. I can't even relate for sure the sequence that things happened in from the moment I realized something was wrong to when we got in the car.
When my husband and I were discussing it last night he commented about having his ear to our son's chest to listen(and feel) for his breathing ,I didn't remember him doing that! But I was right there .I never left him.

Now, my husband and 11 yr old can relate what happened completely,but ,even though I was calm on the outside and did all the right things,I was freaking out somewhere in my brain,or maybe it was my heart.

I couldn't help but relate it all to this case and some of our expectations about the parents ,what's hinky and what's not.
I'm still on the fence but trying not to judge some of the details.

.. And again much thanks to MissJames for choosing to share this with us and more than anything am so happy your son is ok:) (((((HUGS)))))

Scamperoo
10-20-2011, 05:46 PM
i wonder if they found in when searching the house. i'd love to know,if not that would be another thing that would make me a bit suspicious.:twocents:

I wonder also if they found the diapers DB just purchased, the baby food and empty box of wine, was all the wine gone, was any baby food used, was the packaging in the trash etc

I don't agree this woman was a simple soul, I think she is as savvy as the rest of us and is quite capable of disposing of evidence or setting up a crime scene. Her socioeconomic status is not an indication of her intelligence or street smarts. Yet I still find it hard to imagine she hurt her baby purposely, Lisa looked like a perfectly happy, smiling and blemish free baby girl so what happened must have been sudden, either she was re-homed or mommy could have smothered her in a drunken/drug induced stupor.

I wonder if the diapers and food could have been sent with Lisa to her new home.....here's hoping

Lera213
10-20-2011, 05:46 PM
I wonder if LE is aware of this angle they can go after to bring her in and arrest her.

Miziree
10-20-2011, 05:47 PM
I posted about Deborah having a Bridge Card (food stamps) several days ago. In Michigan, alcohol and tobacco products can't be purchased with the Bridge Card, but I'm not aware of other restrictions. Given the fact that DB is a single mother with dependent children and is still legally married to someone other than JI, she might qualify for government assistance. jmo

http://websleuths.com/forums/search.php?searchid=4791742&pp=50&page=4

I posted a little about this awhile back too..
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - LE serves search warrant on family home #4

21merc7
10-20-2011, 05:47 PM
This is new.. to me anyway.. HLN:

VinniePolitan @Vinnie Politan
A pentagram found in a tunnel behind Baby Lisa's house. #BabyLisa yfrog.com/gzv3asej

its probably not related, who knows? I thought it was an interesting find..

That is a new tweet, the video was posted about an hour ago, but no tweets.

It is actually two spray painted stars and a spray painted moon, that I think the artisan meant to be half moon but is it 3/4, the artisan has not honed their craft at this state. a.k.a. Teen Graffiti

I am imagining a large group of teens in KC talking on their cells, texting, and sending Facebook message full of guffaws right now. Hope their networks can handle it. Lol.

MyBelle
10-20-2011, 05:54 PM
I have often wondered if the baby items were purchased using some sort of state funded card that wouldn't cover the purchase of alcohol? not sure if they receive any aid, etc.. but it would make sense?:twocents:

A state card would record the purchase, which is why DB did it separately, imo. She wanted a record because it gives the impression Lisa was still at home/alive at that point in time. This was all preplanned. It is no coincidence that it took place on the first night Jeremy worked. Stranger abductions in broad daylight aren't as easily believed.

JMO

Just K
10-20-2011, 05:56 PM
Those photos in and around the driveway side and the back of the house reminded me of a few very clear photos that I saw of the back corner of the house.

There are several spotlight lights on the driveway side top corner of the house and a couple more near the deck. If they are motion triggered lights then they would come on if anyone was on the back or side of the house. I haven't noticed if there were any on the front (driveway side) corner of the house.

Also, with a garage and other vehicles parked in the back. Why did JI come in through the front door? Or did he? If he parked where the other vehicles were parked, in the back, then how did he notice the screen pushed into the open front window? If he parked in the back then he would have triggered the motion lights and why would he walk up the driveway to enter through the front door.

If he parked in the front was that normal?

frankie069
10-20-2011, 05:57 PM
He would get in a lot of trouble once and if DFAS researches his pay. She won't face any penalty's except maybe welfare fraud depending on what she reported.

He wont get in any trouble at all, he is across the world over there. He doesnt know what she tries to qualify for and what she might lie about. She would be the one that would get in trouble. She is making out like a bandit, health coverage, and child support from hubby and and her BF (JI's) pay on top of it. Like I said, just think how her husbands VA benefits had to by law pay for little Lisa to be born. (JI could not cover DB during her pregnancy because she is married with benefits) I am sure JI now pays for Lisa though, he can only cover Lisa after she was born. Sounds like she just gets all the deals to me.

SmoothOperator
10-20-2011, 06:01 PM
FWIW.. Regarding the separate purchases at the store I, too immediately thought it possible that DB could have been using a government card(modern day food stamps) and that this is why she purchased the wine separately because the baby items were Paid for with the card.. But I quickly dismissed it in learning that ATLEAST In our state any paper products/manufacture goods(both diapers and wipes) do not qualify therefor cannot be purchased on the welfare card.. As I said FWIW due to the fact that Missouri may be different.. Someone may be able to let us know one way or the other..

MyBelle
10-20-2011, 06:01 PM
He would get in a lot of trouble once and if DFAS researches his pay. She won't face any penalty's except maybe welfare fraud depending on what she reported.

By "he" do you mean DB's husband, a soldier? What possible trouble would he face for her actions? She, on the other hand, would face prison if convicted of welfare fraud.

JMO

Lera213
10-20-2011, 06:02 PM
He wont get in any trouble at all, he is across the world over there. He doesnt know what she tries to qualify for and what she might lie about. She would be the one that would get in trouble. She is making out like a bandit, health coverage, and child support from hubby and and her BF (JI's) pay on top of it. Like I said, just think how her husbands VA benefits had to by law pay for little Lisa to be born. (JI could not cover DB during her pregnancy because she is married with benefits) I am sure JI now pays for Lisa though, he can only cover Lisa after she was born. Sounds like she just gets all the deals to me.

many separated military couples the GI will not report they are seperated therefore gets the extra housing allowance. He would have to pay it all back, the military will take his pay until paid back.

Edit to add, his commander it would be at his discretion to proceed with disciplinary action.

Dr.Fessel
10-20-2011, 06:04 PM
Those photos in and around the driveway side and the back of the house reminded me of a few very clear photos that I saw of the back corner of the house.

There are several spotlight lights on the driveway side top corner of the house and a couple more near the deck. If they are motion triggered lights then they would come on if anyone was on the back or side of the house. I haven't noticed if there were any on the front (driveway side) corner of the house.

Also, with a garage and other vehicles parked in the back. Why did JI come in through the front door? Or did he? If he parked where the other vehicles were parked, in the back, then how did he notice the screen pushed into the open front window? If he parked in the back then he would have triggered the motion lights and why would he walk up the driveway to enter through the front door.

If he parked in the front was that normal?

I remember seeing a picture of what looked like a work van and a car parked in the driveway when crime scene tape was up. I always assumed that was his work van.