PDA

View Full Version : Conrad Murray trial -Day fourteen.


Soulmagent
10-20-2011, 09:49 AM
Dr Shafer stated almost none of the safeguards were in place. Did anyone catch what "safeguards" were actualy in place?



Links.



MajicAtl.
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150211&v=1&libid=1317387045927&out=http%3A%2F%2Fmajicatl.com%2Fvideos%2Fmajicatl% 2Fwatch-the-conrad-murray-michael-jackson-death-trial-here-live-stream%2F&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fuse rcp.php&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20three.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fmajicatl.com%2Fvideos%2Fmajicatl% 2F...e-live-stream%2F&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13173872342816


TMZ
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150800&v=1&libid=1318426669028&out=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.viglink.com%2Fapi%2Fclick%3Ff ormat%3Dgo%26drKey%3D910%26loc%3Dhttp%253A%252F%25 2Fwww.websleuths.com%252Fforums%252Fshowthread.php %253Ft%253D150211%26v%3D1%26libid%3D1317387045927% 26out%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.tmz.com%252F%26ref% 3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.websleuths.com%252Fforums %252Fusercp.php%26title%3DConrad%2520Murray%2520tr ial%2520-Day%2520three.%2520-%2520Websleuths%2520Crime%2520Sleuthing%2520Commun ity%26txt%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.tmz.com%252F%26 jsonp%3Dvglnk_jsonp_13173871051031&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Ffor umdisplay.php%3Ff%3D462&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20nine.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.viglink.com%2Fapi%2Fclick%3Ff or...13173871051031&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13184268344095



My Fox
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150211&v=1&libid=1317387045927&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.myfoxphoenix.com%2Fdpps%2Fnew s%2Fjustice%2Fconrad-murray-michael-jackson-doctor-trial-app_15219744&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fuse rcp.php&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20three.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.myfoxphoenix.com%2Fdpps%2Fnew ...l-app_15219744&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_131738713427



News star.
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150211&v=1&libid=1317387045927&out=http%3A%2F%2Fnewstaar.com%2Fwatch-streaming-live-video-dr-conrad-murray-trial-in-michael-jackson-doctor-case-%25e2%2580%2593-opening-statement-as-trial-begins-today%2F354326%2F&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fuse rcp.php&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20three.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fnewstaar.com%2Fwatch-streaming-...-today%2F354326%2F&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13173871808373



Click2Houston
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150211&v=1&libid=1317387045927&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.click2houston.com%2Fvideo%2F2 9313639%2Findex.html&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fuse rcp.php&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20three.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.click2houston.com%2Fvideo%2F2 9313639%2Findex.html&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13173871975894ng

CNN
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150800&v=1&libid=1318426669028&out=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.viglink.com%2Fapi%2Fclick%3Ff ormat%3Dgo%26drKey%3D910%26loc%3Dhttp%253A%252F%25 2Fwww.websleuths.com%252Fforums%252Fshowthread.php %253Ft%253D150211%26v%3D1%26libid%3D1317387045927% 26out%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.cnn.com%252Fvideo%2 52F%26ref%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.websleuths.com% 252Fforums%252Fusercp.php%26title%3DConrad%2520Mur ray%2520trial%2520-Day%2520three.%2520-%2520Websleuths%2520Crime%2520Sleuthing%2520Commun ity%26txt%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.cnn.com%252Fvid eo%252F%26jsonp%3Dvglnk_jsonp_13173872142345&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Ffor umdisplay.php%3Ff%3D462&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20nine.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.viglink.com%2Fapi%2Fclick%3Ff or...13173872142345&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13184269652286



LA LOCAL TIMES.
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150702&v=1&libid=1317929514163&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.latimes.com%2Fnews%2Flocal%2F michael-jackson-trial%2F&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150702%26page%3D3&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20eight.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.latimes.com%2Fnews%2Flocal%2F mi...jackson-trial%2F&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13179300346441



Upstream
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150702&v=1&libid=1317929514163&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ustream.tv%2Fconradmurraytria l%23utm_campaign%3Dsynclickback%26source%3Dhttp%3A %2F%2Fwww.mediaite.com%2Fonline%2Fwatch-dr-conrad-murray-trial-via-live-stream%2F%26medium%3D9407213&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150702%26page%3D3&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20eight.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ustream.tv%2Fconradmurraytr.. .medium%3D9407213&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13179301284242



ABC Local channel seven
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150702&v=1&libid=1317929514163&out=http%3A%2F%2Fabclocal.go.com%2Fkabc%2Flivenow% 3Fid%3D8366366&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150702%26page%3D3&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20eight.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fabclocal.go.com%2Fkabc%2Flivenow% 3Fid%3D8366366&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13179301490783


ITUNE link.
http://www.apple.com/itunes/affiliates/download/?id=464322481

Crosby87
10-20-2011, 10:52 AM
Good morning,

So what is on the Court's agenda for today? The defense team will cross-examine
Dr. Shafer and then the Court will take a break until Friday morning when the Defense will call their next witness? Court will likey end early today.

Talina
10-20-2011, 11:01 AM
Dr Shafer stated almost none of the safeguards were in place. Did anyone catch what "safeguards" were actualy in place?



Well...he did have the IV saline solution going.

oceanblueeyes
10-20-2011, 11:03 AM
Good morning,

So what is on the Court's agenda for today? The defense team will cross-examine
Dr. Shafer and then the Court will take a break until Friday morning when the Defense will call their next witness? Court will likey end early today.

Morning Blue!

From what Beth Karas just said she believes that Dr. Shafer will be on the stand for the state possibly a couple of more hours then the defense will cross after then.

Flanigan's crosses are usually very long so it may take the rest of the day.

I am not sure that Judge Pastor is going to give the DT another day off before they begin their CIC since the jury has really missed a lot of time this week and last week.

IMO

Talina
10-20-2011, 11:04 AM
Good morning,

So what is on the Court's agenda for today? The defense team will cross-examine
Dr. Shafer and then the Court will take a break until Friday morning when the Defense will call their next witness? Court will likey end early today.

Actually, Walgren hasn't finished with direct examination yet. Beth Karas he could likely have an hour or two to go yet based on her saying there are some territories that he hasn't yet covered and if he does, likely an hour or two more.

Given Flanagan's propensity to extend out a cross examination beyond it's shelf life and then redirect, recross, reredirect, rerecross....we could very likely have a full day today.

Crosby87
10-20-2011, 11:53 AM
Morning Blue!

From what Beth Karas just said she believes that Dr. Shafer will be on the stand for the state possibly a couple of more hours then the defense will cross after then.

Flanigan's crosses are usually very long so it may take the rest of the day.

I am not sure that Judge Pastor is going to give the DT another day off before they begin their CIC since the jury has really missed a lot of time this week and last week.

IMO

The media report I posted yesterday said "Defense attorneys for Dr. Conrad Murray say their witnesses aren't available until Friday."

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/44959098/ns/today-entertainment/

Crosby87
10-20-2011, 12:02 PM
Actually, Walgren hasn't finished with direct examination yet. Beth Karas he could likely have an hour or two to go yet based on her saying there are some territories that he hasn't yet covered and if he does, likely an hour or two more.

Given Flanagan's propensity to extend out a cross examination beyond it's shelf life and then redirect, recross, reredirect, rerecross....we could very likely have a full day today.

Thanks Talina, I didn't hear Judge Pastor excuse Dr. Shafer either so I expected he would be back on the witness stand Thursday am to wrap-up his testimony. Judge Pastor only directed his instructions to the Jury and I never heard him directly instruct Dr. Shafer before Court was adjourned.

Judge Pastor looks like Robert De Niro.

octobermoon
10-20-2011, 12:37 PM
So this study shows that even if MJ drank the propofal it wouldn't have affected him???

*still like this witness :)

Crosby87
10-20-2011, 12:40 PM
So this study shows that even if MJ drank the propofal it wouldn't have affected him???

*still like this witness :)

That's right.

octobermoon
10-20-2011, 12:42 PM
That's right.

Thank you :)

was talking to my mama and trying to listen. Love her, but...... ;)

Credence
10-20-2011, 12:45 PM
Good afternoon all. :)

Just in case anyone missed it:

Zero possibility that MJ consumed propofol and caused his death

Attended conference in Chile in May, 2011. Conducted experiment on humans re: bioavailability of propofol found in humans.

Sidebar

I think Chernoff is objecting because they already said they were not going to argue oral ingestion but I do not blame Walgren one bit for bringing it up with the work Dr. Shafer did to disprove it especially considering DT knew since May was not viable.

Overruled by Judge

Results -
6 people - 3 volunteers drank 20ML of propofol (200mg)
3 people - 3 volunteers drank 2x that amount (400mg)

Vital signs and sedation were measured using common, validated scale for assessment of anesthesia (repeatedly)

Based on scale -- none of the subjects were sedated at any time following the oral ingestion of propofol

Measurement of sedation -- none

Level of oxygen or blood pressure never dropped throughout study

Was presented to Anesthesiologist Society Conference last Friday in Chicago - he missed it (of course we know that it was due to his father's death)

Received Lifetime Achievement Award

Credence
10-20-2011, 01:02 PM
Based on tests - more than 4mg of lorazepam administered to MJ

mid-morning break - 15 minutes

ETA: Dr. Shafer originally said it was administered by Dr. Murray but defense objected and it was sustained so he had to give his answer without indicating Murray

Tweet by ABC:
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Judge recessing trial for the mid-morning break. Walgren said he needs time to put together PowerPoint presentation. Trial resumes at 10:15

octobermoon
10-20-2011, 01:15 PM
O/T I know this isn't the complain about NG thread, but my gosh Jean C. is overly dramatic. I used to love her, cause she kept it to the facts, ..... argh ........

Crosby87
10-20-2011, 01:16 PM
Dr Shafer stated "Michael Jackson's blood levels taken during the autopsy prove more than 4 mg of Lorazepam was in Michael Jackson's system before he died.

At autopsy, .169 mg of Lorazepam was in femoral blood. (I think this is right).

Dr. Murray claimed he gave MJ 2 mg of Lorazepam twice on June 25, the initial dose of 2 mg was given at 2 am and the second dose of 2 mg was given at 5 am.

Credence
10-20-2011, 01:17 PM
O/T I know this isn't the complain about NG thread, but my gosh Jean C. is overly dramatic. I used to love her, cause she kept it to the facts, ..... argh ........

I so agree; most of them are doing that now. I just like listening to Beth K and Vinnie. Alan Duke as well when he pops in occasionally.

Talina
10-20-2011, 01:23 PM
Jean C had a fit the other day. She was outside the courtroom on one of the breaks trying to say something but Beth Karas and someone else were also talking and they went in a diff direction that what Jean C wanted to say in her report. So she said over them "i am still here waiting to give my report on what i wanted to talk about" it was pretty funny...she sounded like a little kid pouting

octobermoon
10-20-2011, 01:26 PM
I so agree; most of them are doing that now. I just like listening to Beth K and Vinnie. Alan Duke as well when he pops in occasionally.

I really like Beth K and Vinnie. Alan, and for me -love Mike B. No yelling, no bombshells and no yelling.

peace9274
10-20-2011, 01:29 PM
O/T I know this isn't the complain about NG thread, but my gosh Jean C. is overly dramatic. I used to love her, cause she kept it to the facts, ..... argh ........


I love how Nancy Grace refers to Jean Casaras as "Jingasaurus" each time she talks to her or mentions her.

peace9274
10-20-2011, 01:32 PM
I so agree; most of them are doing that now. I just like listening to Beth K and Vinnie. Alan Duke as well when he pops in occasionally.


Even Dr Drew hopped on the Drama Train during the Casey A. Trial.

And he's still on it.

Psychiatrists are normally even tempered and not surprised nor do they usually get theatrical or emotional.

I think HLN has told all the commentators and THs to show MORE emotion... for ratings.

Because, apparently, of Nancy Grace's ratings going sky-high during the CA Trial.

Credence
10-20-2011, 01:33 PM
OMG -- is he saying MJ received 4mgs of lorazepam every 1/2 hour since 2AM?

Wish I could capture a screen shot but don't know how to do that. grrr

40mg of drug in one bottle of lorazepam

octobermoon
10-20-2011, 01:34 PM
I had to give DH Lorazapam. Powerful drug to calm the nerves. It was in little caps that I broke apart and fed it to him in apple sauce. How sad that this MD. gave MJ these drugs to a healthy man.

Credence
10-20-2011, 01:34 PM
Even Dr Drew hopped on the Drama Train during the Casey A. trial.

I know LOL. I couldn't even listen to him. Anyone that did and did not know what was really going on would have been confused as heck. He needs to stick to celebrity drug addiction period

Credence
10-20-2011, 01:43 PM
OK I went back on my DVR -- the graph is showing 0 - 12noon (0 = 12mid)

According to the graph MJ received 4mg of lorazepam from 12:30AM-5:30AM in intervals of every 1/2 hour

(10 doses = 40Mg) entire bottle

octobermoon
10-20-2011, 01:47 PM
was CM in such a hurry to get MJ to sleep that he OD'd him?

Credence
10-20-2011, 02:00 PM
Several hours prior to MJ's death (at least 4 hours) assuming death was noon -- (window 8AM-12N) findings do not support that MJ swallowed any pills within that window

Crosby87
10-20-2011, 02:06 PM
OK I went back on my DVR -- the graph is showing 0 - 12noon (0 = 12mid)

According to the graph MJ received 4mg of lorazepam from 12:30AM-5:30AM in intervals of every 1/2 hour

(10 doses = 40Mg) entire bottle

Dr. Shafer's chart proved 2 mg of Lorazepam given by IV at 1/2 hour intervals produced the .169 blood level reading done at autopsy.

Credence
10-20-2011, 02:07 PM
Dr. Shafer's chart proved 2 mg of Lorazepam given by IV at 1/2 hour intervals produced the .169 blood level reading done at autopsy.

Correct :)

And the stomach: 634 nanograms per ml - calculated out to be 0.047 mg (trivial amount) = 1/43rd tablet of lorazepam pill

octobermoon
10-20-2011, 02:10 PM
I don't understand why gender would be important? anyone know? TIA

Credence
10-20-2011, 02:11 PM
Propofol acts on the brain; not the blood and the brain is responsible for cessation of breathing.

Credence
10-20-2011, 02:12 PM
I don't understand why gender would be important? anyone know? TIA

I think males and females metabolise drugs differently due to fat in the body. Perhaps a medical person could explain further

Click on drugs in this presentation:

http://www.fathom.com/course/10701010/120_anatomy.html

octobermoon
10-20-2011, 02:14 PM
I think males and females metabolise drugs differently due to fat in the body. Perhaps a medical person could explain further

:seeya: Thank you.

octobermoon
10-20-2011, 02:15 PM
I think males and females metabolise drugs differently due to fat in the body. Perhaps a medical person could explain further

(mine are called curves :innocent:) ;)

Credence
10-20-2011, 02:23 PM
(mine are called curves :innocent:) ;)

LMBO. :floorlaugh:

peace9274
10-20-2011, 02:26 PM
was CM in such a hurry to get MJ to sleep that he OD'd him?

My theory is that CM got called to come to MJ's house later than usual.

CM's live-in GF testified, IIRC, that CM usually left around 9-9:30 pm to go to MJ's.

This particular night, wasn't CM called around midnight to go to MJ's?

CM may have been pizzed over being awakened from sleep or from just waiting for MJ's
call to come... which also had prevented him from talking to his other GF's.

CM then hurridly put MJ to sleep as soon as he got there so that he then could sleep for
several hours and talk to the other GFs.

I agree with several others here that believe MJ died hours earlier & that he was stone cold dead,
after CM woke up, after his personal calls and then finally went to check on MJ.
(Did CM ask himself: "If I don't hear him, or see him moving, he must still be asleep."?)

LadyL
10-20-2011, 02:26 PM
If I was on the jury, my brain would be fried listening to this stuff.

Credence
10-20-2011, 02:28 PM
My theory is that CM got called to come to MJ's house later that usual.

CM's live-in GF testified, IIRC, that CM usually left around 9-9:30 pm to go to MJ's.

This particular night, wasn't CM called around mindnight to go to MJ's?

CM may have been pizzed over being awakened from sleep or from just waiting for MJ's call to come... which prolly had prevented him from talking to his other GF's.

CM then hurridly put MJ to sleep as soon as he got there so that he then could sleep for several hours and talk to the other GFs.

I agree with several others here that believe MJ died hours earlier & that he was stone cold dead, after CM woke up, after his personal calls and then finally went to check on MJ. (Did CM ask himself: "If I don't hear him, or see him moving, he must still be asleep."?)

I definitely believe MJ died earlier. Even that call to the gf who had not heard from him in a while was staged. I believe he made those coughing and mumbling noises deliberately to make it appear he was in the room when MJ arrested. Everything he did was for show and no reason to call 911 because MJ was already dead. His interview is chock full of lies and is totally self serving IMO

Credence
10-20-2011, 02:30 PM
If I was on the jury, my brain would be fried listening to this stuff.

He is losing me right now as well. I have heard enough. CM killed MJ .... just wonder how the defense is going to address this awesome testimony.

peace9274
10-20-2011, 02:30 PM
I don't understand why gender would be important? anyone know? TIA


Fat content higher on a woman?
Just guessing, though.... without hurting my brain,
trying to remember the real reason.

Credence
10-20-2011, 02:33 PM
Fat content higher on a woman?
Just guessing, though.... without hurting my brain,
trying to remember the real reason.

I said that too LOL -- I edited my post and put a link to the explanation though

octobermoon
10-20-2011, 02:34 PM
Fat content higher on a woman?
Just guessing, though.... without hurting my brain,
trying to remember the real reason.

I think us women with the fat and all are slower to absorb the drugs ......
Oh heck I give up~

We need a nurse!

peace9274
10-20-2011, 02:38 PM
I definitely believe MJ died earlier.

Even that call to the gf who had not heard from him in a while was staged.

I believe he made those coughing and mumbling noises deliberately to make it appear he was in the room when MJ arrested. Everything he did was for show and no reason to call 911 because MJ was already dead. His interview is chock full of lies and is totally self serving IMO


AHA! I thought that call was weird, not hearing from CM in awhile, and then
him just leaving the phone connected, letting her talk on and on, not knowing
he was doing other things! As in panicking, running in circles & hiding evidence!

Now it makes perfect sense!!! Thnx, Credence!

I guess my sleuthing is getting kinda rusty!

octobermoon
10-20-2011, 02:39 PM
Was the ox. tank full? anyone know?

Credence
10-20-2011, 02:39 PM
Well LadyL -- Dr. Shafer agrees with us:

Would have expected MJ to stop breathing shortly (1 minute to 4 minutes) after dose was given especially with the other drugs on board

Credence
10-20-2011, 02:40 PM
Was the ox. tank full? anyone know?

It was found empty -- not known if it was used up that morning or had already been empty

peace9274
10-20-2011, 02:40 PM
I think us women with the fat and all are slower to absorb the drugs ......
Oh heck I give up~

We need a nurse!


I'm a nurse, but the memory isn't working so well today! :maddening:

octobermoon
10-20-2011, 02:42 PM
I'm a nurse, but the memory isn't working so well today! :maddening:

Thanks for being here :)

Credence
10-20-2011, 02:42 PM
Now he is attempting to prove CM used a drip.

CarolinaMoon
10-20-2011, 02:43 PM
If I was on the jury, my brain would be fried listening to this stuff.

This sure is frying my brain! :floorlaugh:

octobermoon
10-20-2011, 02:44 PM
I'm a nurse, but the memory isn't working so well today! :maddening:

Could MJ just have stuck himself in the butt and the prop. would that have worked IYKWIM?

Credence
10-20-2011, 02:44 PM
These are tweets being put out by ABC. They are on top of this testimony. Just refresh the page every few seconds or so:

https://twitter.com/#!/abc7murraytrial

CarolinaMoon
10-20-2011, 02:45 PM
Was the ox. tank full? anyone know?

It was empty, I believe. It was mentioned earlier in the trial that the unknown was if the valve was left on in the emergency and ran out on its own.

peace9274
10-20-2011, 02:45 PM
He is losing me right now as well. I have heard enough. CM killed MJ .... just wonder how the defense is going to address this awesome testimony.


I knew when he first started all this part, that he'd lose me. I'm sure that he's lost most of the jurors now too.

The main thing is that both the atty is asking questions that he knows about, and that Dr shafer is answering
them as though he knows exactly what he is talking about.

After Dr Shafer's testimony yesterday, he passed the test and won me over totally... being an excellent doc and
as being the perfect expert witness.

(Thus the reason I'm writting so much more today than yesterday! LOL)

CarolinaMoon
10-20-2011, 02:48 PM
All I know about the gender issue is that some drugs work differently on men and women. I seem to recall (from a long time ago), that there was little drug research done on women for drugs for heart attacks and they didn't work the same way on women. Apparently, women's heart attacks are different from men's.

Credence
10-20-2011, 02:48 PM
I knew when he first started all this part, that he'd lose me. I'm sure that he's lost most of the jurors now too.

The main thing is that both the atty is asking questions that he knows about, and that Dr shafer is answering
them as though he knows exactly what he is talking about.

After Dr Shafer's testimony yesterday, he passed the test and won me over totally... being an excellent doc and
as being the perfect expert witness.

(Thus the reason I'm writting so much more today than yesterday! LOL)

I have perked up a bit since he started talking about the propofol. I can only imagine Chernoff is kicking himself right now for allowing CM to speak with LE. He dang near is prosecuting himself.

octobermoon
10-20-2011, 02:54 PM
MJ didn't do this to himself.

peace9274
10-20-2011, 02:54 PM
I have seen so many doctors, nurses, pharmacists and techs try so hard to "CYA" when they caused harm to patients.
They lied about their part of the incidents, both verbally & on documentation in the patient's chart.

If it's a minor, one-time, accidental event for that staff member, the other staff will usually just look the other way and
not report it, which is in reality, pathetic.

I saw, 35 years ago, a doctor due to his negligence, get away with his neglect of proper treatment of a one year old baby...
brain damaged for life. The doc hadn't seen the lab results for the baby's electrolytes, especially potassium, in time to adjust
the baby's IV meds and the baby arrested.

The baby's family never knew what happened. Never got compensation. The whole thing was covered up, successfully.
It still bothers & haunts me to this day!

But there have also been many times, that a doctor, nurse, tech has been negligent, acting totally out of the norm for care,
and the other staff have not stood by and let him/her get away with it. Especially when the staff member's behavior, actions
caused harm to the patient.

I've been wondering how many times CM has had to "CYA" and gotten away with it. Thus the reason he was so sure the detectives
bought his long drawn-out story during the interview.... with his wayyyy too many off-topic details.

He also appeared to be so confident & so sure of himself & so pathetic during his U-tube statement....
believing that everyone that saw that U-Tube statement, would believe him!

And then feel sooo sorry for him when "the truth shall prevail."

GMAFB

Credence
10-20-2011, 02:55 PM
Wow now he is attacking the theory of self-administration by MJ. Says blood levels would have been lower and he would have had to self-inject multiple times which is not just feasible to bring him up to the blood levels found.

octobermoon
10-20-2011, 02:58 PM
Is Dr. White the man with the glasses and greasy hair?

peace9274
10-20-2011, 03:08 PM
Is Dr. White the man with the glasses and greasy hair?


That describes the entire DT!

Credence
10-20-2011, 03:08 PM
Is Dr. White the man with the glasses and greasy hair?

Yes he is the one that has been hunched over that laptop.

Crosby87
10-20-2011, 03:11 PM
(mine are called curves :innocent:) ;)

MJ had fat cells? Where? Just kidding.

Thundar
10-20-2011, 03:15 PM
I just turned on the CNN online and court is in recess. Is this the noon recess?

octobermoon
10-20-2011, 03:15 PM
MJ had fat cells? Where? Just kidding.


I stole 'em :innocent: :crazy:

borndem
10-20-2011, 03:20 PM
Good afternoon all. :)

Just in case anyone missed it:

Zero possibility that MJ consumed propofol and caused his death

Attended conference in Chile in May, 2011. Conducted experiment on humans re: bioavailability of propofol found in humans.

Sidebar

I think Chernoff is objecting because they already said they were not going to argue oral ingestion but I do not blame Walgren one bit for bringing it up with the work Dr. Shafer did to disprove it especially considering DT knew since May was not viable.

Overruled by Judge

Results -
6 people - 3 volunteers drank 20ML of propofol (200mg)
3 people - 3 volunteers drank 2x that amount (400mg)

Vital signs and sedation were measured using common, validated scale for assessment of anesthesia (repeatedly)

Based on scale -- none of the subjects were sedated at any time following the oral ingestion of propofol

Measurement of sedation -- none

Level of oxygen or blood pressure never dropped throughout study

Was presented to Anesthesiologist Society Conference last Friday in Chicago - he missed it (of course we know that it was due to his father's death)

Received Lifetime Achievement Award

Another intangible from this discussion -- at least to me & possibly no one else -- is that it shows the DT's initial theory that they chose to present is full of baloney. I also inferred from it that IMO-IMO if it were White's theory, either he is not so smart, or not so honest, or was willing to try to give the jury bad science and thought he would get away with it -- IMO-IMO, please know.

Crosby87
10-20-2011, 03:24 PM
I just turned on the CNN online and court is in recess. Is this the noon recess?

Yes. Judge Pastor announced they will take a one hour and 45 minute lunch break today to give the jurors time to relax.

peace9274
10-20-2011, 03:27 PM
Could MJ just have stuck himself in the butt and the prop. would that have worked IYKWIM?


I've posted here a few times re MJ injecting himself with the amount of propofol found in his body at autopsy.

I compare it to someone saying their spouse, S/O, etc, committed suicide and that they had shot themselves
3 times in the head (close range) to do so.

Only thing is, the person who alledgedly shot him/herself would not survive after the first gunshot...

Same with giving himself the Propofol. MJ would not have stayed awake, alert, alive long enough,
after the first small dose, to continue giving himself more.

If MJ gave himself the full amount, quickly in the butt, it would have been an IM (intramuscular) injection.
I'm not sure what the effect or how quickly absorbed into his system would be.

Have they mentioned how Propofol works when given as an IM?

I scanned very rapidly, over the long literature at drugs.com for propofol,
but didn't see any mention of IM administration.

I did read, however, that there IS A SHORTGAGE of Propofol at this time!
I wonder what happened to CM's stash!

EPfan
10-20-2011, 03:32 PM
I have seen so many doctors, nurses, pharmacists and techs try so hard to "CYA" when they caused harm to patients.
They lied about their part of the incidents, both verbally & on documentation in the patient's chart.

If it's a minor, one-time, accidental event for that staff member, the other staff will usually just look the other way and
not report it, which is in reaslity, pathetic.

I saw, 35 years ago, a doctor due to his negligence, get away with his neglect of proper treatment of a one year old baby...
brain damaged for life. The doc hadn't seen the lab results for the baby's electrolytes, especially potassium, in time to adjust
the baby's IV meds and the baby arrested.

The baby's family never knew what happened. Never got compensation. The whole thing was covered up, successfully.
It still bothers & haunts me to this day!

But there have also been many times, that a doctor, nurse, tech has been negligent, acting totally out of the norm for care,
and the other staff have not stood by and let him/her get away with it. Especially when the staff member's behavior, actions
caused harm to the patient.

I've been wondering how many times CM has had to "CYA" and gotten away with it. Thus the reason he was so sure the detectives
bought his long drawn-out story during the interview.... with his wayyyy too many off-topic details.

He also appeared to be so confident & so sure of himself & so pathetic during his U-tube statement....
believing that everyone that saw that U-Tube statement, would believe him!

And then feel sooo sorry for him when "the truth shall prevail."

GMAFB

Thanks for posting this. You are so right. I think we would be totally amazed at the numbers for cover-ups in hospitals when negligence has occured. There is a hospital in the area that I live that is very understaffed so the Dr's and nurses are very overworked. This is a big problem.

Crosby87
10-20-2011, 03:36 PM
FYI, Dr. Conrad Murray arrived holding hands with his mother on the opening day of his trial.

Maybe his mother is staying with him during the trial?

Does anyone know whether Dr. Murray's mother or Nicole Alvarez have been in Court everyday? Is there anyone there to support him other than his lawyers?

The camera focused on Dr. Murray alot this morning while Dr. Shafer was testifying.

My video connection quit on me so I missed parts of Dr. Shafer's testimony.

peace9274
10-20-2011, 03:38 PM
Another intangible from this discussion -- at least to me & possibly no one else -- is that it shows the DT's initial theory that they chose to present is full of baloney. I also inferred from it that IMO-IMO if it were White's theory, either he is not so smart, or not so honest, or was willing to try to give the jury bad science and thought he would get away with it -- IMO-IMO, please know.


Dr White, the expert witness for the defense, may be getting paid a large amount for testifying as an expert.
Or he may be doing this pro bono, also.

But, I'm wondering if he's wondering if he'll have to return that large payment he received.


Or if he hasn't gotten paid yet, is he wondering if the DT will still pay him after
Dr Shafer's testimony.... and realize he doesn't have much to say for the defense?

If Dr White will not be getting paid, for what ever reasons, he is losing a lot of money just sitting there waiting for his turn. :)

Dr Shafer is also losing money, while testifying (pro bono), but he is a devoted doc & realizes that it for very good causes:

To show that profofol is safe,

To show that anesthesiologists, and in fact, most doctors, are not like CM; that they're highly trained & always put the patient first...
IOW, he reinstating faith in docs, medicine, and hoping to eliminate the patients' fear.

To show that doctors & other medical staff can NOT "CYA" when being negletful, harmful and/or acting out of the norm when treating a patient.

Thundar
10-20-2011, 03:39 PM
I'm sorry I have another question for those that have actually watched this morning, has defense crossed at all yet or has it been all the prosecution so far?

Thundar
10-20-2011, 03:41 PM
FYI, Dr. Conrad Murray arrived holding hands with his mother on the opening day of his trial.

Maybe his mother is staying with him during the trial?

Does anyone know whether Dr. Murray's mother or Nicole Alvarez have been in Court everyday? Is there anyone there to support him other than his lawyers?

The camera focused on Dr. Murray alot this morning while Dr. Shafer was testifying.

My video connection quit on me so I missed parts of Dr. Shafer's testimony.

I believe that JeanCasarus has stated that Murray's mother has been there evey day during the trial.

Talina
10-20-2011, 03:52 PM
I'm sorry I have another question for those that have actually watched this morning, has defense crossed at all yet or has it been all the prosecution so far?

Still direct testimony. No cross from defense yet.

peace9274
10-20-2011, 03:54 PM
I'm sorry I have another question for those that have actually watched this morning, has defense crossed at all yet or has it been all the prosecution so far?


Just the prosecution so far, today.

Lunch break will be longer than usual today.

To resume at 1:45 pm, I think that's what the Judge said.

oceanblueeyes
10-20-2011, 04:05 PM
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Dr. Shafer says the amount of Propofol found in #MichaelJackson's femoral blood at time of autopsy is inconsistent with repeated injections.

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
It appears Walgren is trying to exclude all possibility of single administration of Propofol in any dosage in #MichaelJackson's case.

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Walgren is walking Dr Shafer through the path that #MichaelJackson had to be on drip to have the amount of Propofol found at time of autopsy

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Now Dr Shafer is saying it's highly unlikely #MichaelJackson would be able to wake up after being given Propofol and inject himself w/ more
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Dr. Shafer: people just don't wake up from anesthesia like that, it's a crazy scenario, it just doesn't happen

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Dr. Shafer is showing several scenarios of what could've happened. It appears the bottom line is that they want to prove #MJ was on a drip.

So far Dr Shafer n Walgren did not explain what possibly happened that led #MJ 2 have that amount of Propofol in his system at time of death

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Judge is now recessing for lunch break. We should be back in trial at 1:45 pm with Walgren resuming direct examination of Dr. Shafer.


:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

Crosby87
10-20-2011, 04:07 PM
Dr White, the expert witness for the defense, may be getting paid a large amount for testifying as an expert.
Or he may be doing this pro bono, also.

But, I'm wondering if he's wondering if he'll have to return that large payment he received.


Or if he hasn't gotten paid yet, is he wondering if the DT will still pay him after
Dr Shafer's testimony.... and realize he doesn't have much to say for the defense?

If Dr White will not be getting paid, for what ever reasons, he is losing a lot of money just sitting there waiting for his turn. :)

Dr Shafer is also losing money, while testifying (pro bono), but he is a devoted doc & realizes that it for very good causes:

To show that profofol is safe,

To show that anesthesiologists, and in fact, most doctors, are not like CM; that they're highly trained & always put the patient first...
IOW, he reinstating faith in docs, medicine, and hoping to eliminate the patients' fear.

To show that doctors & other medical staff can NOT "CYA" when being negletful, harmful and/or acting out of the norm when treating a patient.

I wonder if the defense team will discuss the case with Conrad Murray and Dr. White over lunch?

borndem
10-20-2011, 04:08 PM
Deprived I am.... and deprived I'll stay.....

Seeing all this conversation about NG -- I do know who she is and have tried to watch her shows, but when I do, my DH looks at me like he is getting ready to dial 911 and ask for the men in the white coats... and since she's become so rabid, IMO, I don't watch her now. I've seen the forum on her, among others here on WS...Wall of Shame...

But I don't know these others -- Dr. Drew, Beth Karas (is that the name?), Greta V.S,, etc., etc. I thought I should try them, so I did yesterday and a bit today, but I just could not keep it up, (It's me, I know) so please do not hold it against me if I can't contribute to this part of the trial...

Just call me, "Still crazy after all these years & do not need to go any nearer the edge.... " :crazy:
------------------

The State is having another banner day!

From Dr. Shafer, "I was disappointed..." mmmmm, mmmmm... So polite, but in those two words.... his colleague...that's got to be tuff for him...

Dr. White has mostly kept his head down, and CM is showing a knitted brow a bit more than before. Surely, Shirley, he knows he's sunk. Isn't he?

The Fat Lady hasn't even picked out her singin' dress yet , I know, but I think I hear her tuning up...

oceanblueeyes
10-20-2011, 04:15 PM
I've posted here a few times re MJ injecting himself with the amount of propofol found in his body at autopsy.

I compare it to someone saying their spouse, S/O, etc, committed suicide and that they had shot themselves
3 times in the head (close range) to do so.

Only thing is, the person who allegedly shot him/herself would not survive after the first gunshot...

Same with giving himself the Propofol. MJ would not have stayed awake, alert, alive long enough,
after the first small dose, to continue giving himself more.

If MJ gave himself the full amount, quickly in the butt, it would have been an IM (intramuscular) injection.
I'm not sure what the effect or how quickly absorbed into his system would be.

Have they mentioned how Propofol works when given as an IM?

I scanned very rapidly, over the long literature at drugs.com for propofol,
but didn't see any mention of IM administration.

I did read, however, that there IS A SHORTAGE of Propofol at this time!
I wonder what happened to CM's stash!

Dr. Shafer said propofol is injected intravenously not by IM administration. MJ would have to find a vein to stick the needle in and and he said propofol burns and is very painful. He said Murray said MJs veins were in poor condition. Dr.S does not believe MJ injected himself.

peace9274
10-20-2011, 04:18 PM
I wonder if the defense team will discuss the case with Conrad Murray and Dr. White over lunch?


If I were Dr White, I would take the lunch break and just keep on walking.

And not return to court at all!

oceanblueeyes
10-20-2011, 04:24 PM
Just the prosecution so far, today.

Lunch break will be longer than usual today.

To resume at 1:45 pm, I think that's what the Judge said.

I think the delay is because Walgren has to get with Dr. Shafer on how they are going to show the drip apparatus to the jury.

IMO

tweezybird
10-20-2011, 04:36 PM
Does anyone think the state will rest today?

peace9274
10-20-2011, 04:44 PM
Dr. Shafer said propofol is injected intravenously not by IM administration. MJ would have to find a vein to stick the needle in and and he said propofol burns and is very painful. He said Murray said MJs veins were in poor condition. Dr.S does not believe MJ injected himself.


BBM

Nor have I ever, from the very beginning!

If MJ had spent as much time begging CM for the propofol...
and if MJ truly wanted only propofol as badly as CM said he did...
and if MJ were an addict & was used to giving himself meds, like CM said he did.....
then IMO, it seems that MJ would not have called CM in the first place to come over to give meds.

Drug addicts, med seekers, people in severe pain/discomfort don't usually wait around for their doctor
to come to their house to supervise their meds... knowing full well that they may be "lectured" or will
not be given high enough doses to satisfy them.

I do not believe that Michael Jackson was abusing drugs, nor that he was presently addicted to any drugs.
He would have been having severe withdrawal symptons at rehearsal... and he would've been way too sick
to perform the dances and direct the other dancers or been able to take direction from others...
like during the Bogart Movie. And he would've had more drugs in his system at autopsy, from maintaining his
addiction or habit, in order to just behave/perform normally.

And even if he had been giving himself meds during rehearsal, too many people would have seen his different
levels of his getting/being high..... & his coming down off the drug, the W/D sx and the changes in his ability to perform at rehearsal.

Michael Jackson did not take the meds himself.
Michael Jackson did not kill himself, accidently or otherwise.
Michael Jackson had, at one time, been addicted to pain meds, after he was caught on fire.
MJ went for treatment at the Betty ford Clinic (I think it was... or was it in England?).

He learned at treatment that if he ever needed to be on meds again, that he would need medication
supervision and administration, by a nurse or a doctor.
And that is what Michael Jackson did do. IMO.

I am just sooo angered and sooo sad and soooo disappointed that someone he trusted and to whom
he was going to pay a huge salary, ended up killing Michael... instead of keeping him comfortable and alive.

Thundar
10-20-2011, 04:51 PM
Does anyone think the state will rest today?

I really did not think that the prosecution would take this long with this witness. I figured prosecution would be done and cross would be over yesterday afternoon or this morning, so this witness is lasting longer than I would have ever thought they would.

Thundar
10-20-2011, 04:54 PM
If I were Dr White, I would take the lunch break and just keep on walking.

And not return to court at all!

I just can't imagine what Dr. White could possibly say on the witness stand to counteract what the last three prosecution witnesses have said. So I guess I will be surprised if he makes any kind of sense.

That made me think of "These Boots Are Made For Walking". Only I think prosecution is wearing those walking all over you boots instead of defense.

peace9274
10-20-2011, 04:54 PM
I wasn't looking at my screen, but I heard the loud laughter after Dr Shafer made a joke.

Anyone see if the DT and Conrad laughed, too??

Crosby87
10-20-2011, 04:56 PM
Deprived I am.... and deprived I'll stay.....

Seeing all this conversation about NG -- I do know who she is and have tried to watch her shows, but when I do, my DH looks at me like he is getting ready to dial 911 and ask for the men in the white coats... and since she's become so rabid, IMO, I don't watch her now. I've seen the forum on her, among others here on WS...Wall of Shame...

But I don't know these others -- Dr. Drew, Beth Karas (is that the name?), Greta V.S,, etc., etc. I thought I should try them, so I did yesterday and a bit today, but I just could not keep it up, (It's me, I know) so please do not hold it against me if I can't contribute to this part of the trial...

Just call me, "Still crazy after all these years & do not need to go any nearer the edge.... " :crazy:
------------------

The State is having another banner day!

From Dr. Shafer, "I was disappointed..." mmmmm, mmmmm... So polite, but in those two words.... his colleague...that's got to be tuff for him...

Dr. White has mostly kept his head down, and CM is showing a knitted brow a bit more than before. Surely, Shirley, he knows he's sunk. Isn't he?

The Fat Lady hasn't even picked out her singin' dress yet , I know, but I think I hear her tuning up...

Dr. Murray's bail terms allowed him to continue practicing medicine after Michael died and imo his medical license should have been suspended either by the Court or through the governing body that oversees the conduct of local physicians and surgeons.

Does anyone know whether Dr. Murray actually did return to work after he was officially charged with MJ's death?

Thundar
10-20-2011, 04:58 PM
Dr. Murray's bail terms allowed him to continue practicing medicine after Michael died and imo his medical license should have been suspended either by the Court or through the governing body that oversees the conduct of local physicians and surgeons.

Does anyone know whether Dr. Murray actually did return to work after he was officially charged with MJ's death?

Part of the terms of his bond was the suspension of his medical liscense. It sounded like he had to sell his clinics, or close them. The lady that worked in his Las Vegas clinic was talking about not working for Murray anymore because he had to close the clinics because of this.

peace9274
10-20-2011, 04:59 PM
I really did not think that the prosecution would take this long with this witness. I figured prosecution would be done and cross would be over yesterday afternoon or this morning, so this witness is lasting longer than I would have ever thought they would.


The prosecution appears to be too professional to do so, but it would be funny if they were prolonging
Dr Shafer's testimony, just to make the Defense Team and CM squirm, sweat, and shake.... more so than they already are!

Thundar
10-20-2011, 05:01 PM
I wasn't looking at my screen, but I heard the loud laughter after Dr Shafer made a joke.

Anyone see if the DT and Conrad laughed, too??

The only time I noticed the cameras on the defense they were all hudled around Dr. White discussing something.

peace9274
10-20-2011, 05:02 PM
Get ready, sports fans!!

Here we go!!!
(Run to the bathroom now, this is gonna be good!)


And I have to go to a dentist appointment in 45 minutes! Dang it!
I think I'll cancel. In fact, I don't care if my teeth rot and all fall out.
In fact, that would be fun...

CarolinaMoon
10-20-2011, 05:23 PM
On HLN during the lunch break, one of the male TH's who was in the courtroom reported that there was a loud conversation between Flannagan and White. All he reported was that he heard the phrase, "don't take it personally" by Flannagan. Oh, to know everything the reporter heard! Seems Dr. White is none too happy about what his old friend is saying about him.

I have a feeling that the defense will wrap up later today and Flannagan will be crossing well into tomorrow, if not all day. IMHO only.

Peace, I have just finished all the appointments I cancelled during the CA trial this summer!

Thundar
10-20-2011, 05:26 PM
On HLN during the lunch break, one of the male TH's who was in the courtroom reported that there was a loud conversation between Flannagan and White. All he reported was that he heard the phrase, "don't take it personally" by Flannagan. Oh, to know everything the reporter heard! Seems Dr. White is none too happy about what his old friend is saying about him.

I have a feeling that the defense will wrap up later today and Flannagan will be crossing well into tomorrow, if not all day. IMHO only.

Peace, I have just finished all the appointments I cancelled during the CA trial this summer!

It kind of looks like Dr. White has left the courtroom, or has moved his chair. The last time the camera went to the defense table I couldn't see him behind them. I am hearing "These boots are made for walking" again.

Thundar
10-20-2011, 05:35 PM
Witness set up an iv holder, a saline bag, and the infusion tubing. This is even better than the video. It is right there in front of the jury.

I hope he shows how Murray spiked the propofol in the empty saline bag direct flow into MJ.

peace9274
10-20-2011, 05:42 PM
Conrad writing notes and passing them to his atty, pointing on his pad to where he wanted the atty to read.

I like how the camera can focus on Whalgren & the DT & CM at the same time!!!

Thundar
10-20-2011, 05:43 PM
HHMMM, witness just showed how there is a part of the label on the propofol bottle that is used as a hanger, who knew? So then why was the saline bag split open. Didn't Murray realize the propofol bottle had a hanger on it?

Thundar
10-20-2011, 05:46 PM
Recess again, afternoon recess this time.

peace9274
10-20-2011, 05:48 PM
OMG. Attys are at sidebar, conferring with Judge.
CM's expression! Like he is seeing a ghost!

And I have to leave! Just when it looks like something big's gonna happen.

Oh darn. Now a little break time so the Jurors can use the bathroom.

Please... someone keep transcribing so I can come right back after the dentist and see what happened.

Thanx in advance.

P.S. I understand the IV set up and what Dr Shafer thinks CM did. I don't need that explained, but anything else worth reporting.... TIA

borndem
10-20-2011, 05:56 PM
I just can't imagine what Dr. White could possibly say on the witness stand to counteract what the last three prosecution witnesses have said. So I guess I will be surprised if he makes any kind of sense.

That made me think of "These Boots Are Made For Walking". Only I think prosecution is wearing those walking all over you boots instead of defense.

BBM - And regardless of what he may be getting paid for his consultation/testimony, Dr. White will not throw himself under the bus for CM or anyone else. His testimony has got to make sense and be truthful -- he has a good reputation, we've been told, and he surely wants to keep it that way.

I'm with you, Thundar, what can this man possibly say to mitigate CM's actions and Shafer's testimony? We'll see, we'll see.

Crosby87
10-20-2011, 06:04 PM
Part of the terms of his bond was the suspension of his medical liscense. It sounded like he had to sell his clinics, or close them. The lady that worked in his Las Vegas clinic was talking about not working for Murray anymore because he had to close the clinics because of this.

At a hearing on June 14 2010, Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor refused to suspend Murray's California medical license despite a request by state authorities to bar him from praticing, saying he did not have the authority to revoke it.

The cardiologist has continued to work in Houston and Las Vegas, where he maintains practices. His attorney, Ed Chernoff, has argued that the loss of Murray's California medical license will negatively affect his Texas and Nevada operations, and filed court papers Friday revealing that those states have allowed Murray to practice provided he doesn't administer sedatives like Propofol.

Murray gained a much-needed dose of good press last month when helped revive a woman who became unconscious on a US Airways flight from Houston to Phoenix.

At a hearing on Tuesday, January 11, 2011, Conrad Murray was ordered to stand trial on a count of involuntary manslaughter and Judge Michael Pastor then ordered the suspension of Murray's license as a condition to the doctor's bail.

The ruling was issued by Los Angeles Superior Judge Michael Pastor after a six-day preliminary hearing that included Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor said testimony presented during a six-day hearing into Murray's treatment of the pop icon had convinced him that allowing the cardiologist to keep his license "would constitute an imminent danger to public safety."

More than 20 witnesses who mostly detailed Murray's actions during Jackson's final hours testified at the preliminary hearing.

The California Medical Board has already tried several times to have Dr. Conrad Murray's license suspended.

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/Media/conrad-murray-due-court-katherine-joe-jackson-fight/story?id=10910329

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-jackson-doctor-in-court-wednesday,0,3544076.story

Thundar
10-20-2011, 06:08 PM
At a hearing on June 14 2010, Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor refused to suspend Murray's California medical license despite a request by state authorities to bar him from praticing, saying he did not have the authority to revoke it.

The cardiologist has continued to work in Houston and Las Vegas, where he maintains practices. His attorney, Ed Chernoff, has argued that the loss of Murray's California medical license will negatively affect his Texas and Nevada operations, and filed court papers Friday revealing that those states have allowed Murray to practice provided he doesn't administer sedatives like Propofol.

Murray gained a much-needed dose of good press last month when helped revive a woman who became unconscious on a US Airways flight from Houston to Phoenix.

At a hearing on Tuesday, January 11, 2011, Conrad Murray was ordered to stand trial on a count of involuntary manslaughter and Judge Michael Pastor then ordered the suspension of Murray's license as a condition to the doctor's bail.

The ruling was issued by Los Angeles Superior Judge Michael Pastor after a six-day preliminary hearing that included more than 20 witnesses who mostly detailed Murray's actions during Jackson's final hours.

The California Medical Board has already tried several times to have Dr. Conrad Murray's license suspended.

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/Media/conrad-murray-due-court-katherine-joe-jackson-fight/story?id=10910329

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-jackson-doctor-in-court-wednesday,0,3544076.story












“Conrad Murray, the physician accused of injecting Michael Jackson with a lethal amount of sedatives, was ordered to stand trial on a count of involuntary manslaughter.
Judge Michael Pastor then ordered the suspension of Murray's license as a condition to the doctor's bail.
Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor said testimony presented during a six-day hearing into Murray's treatment of the pop icon had convinced him that allowing the cardiologist to keep his license "would constitute an imminent danger to public safety."


http://www.popeater.com/2011/01/11/conrad-murray-license-suspended/

At a hearing on June 14 2010, Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor refused to suspend Murray's California medical license despite a request by state authorities to bar him from praticing, saying he did not have the authority to revoke it.

The cardiologist has continued to work in Houston and Las Vegas, where he maintains practices. His attorney, Ed Chernoff, has argued that the loss of Murray's California medical license will negatively affect his Texas and Nevada operations, and filed court papers Friday revealing that those states have allowed
Murray to practice provided he doesn't administer sedatives like Propofol.
Murray gained a much-needed dose of good press last month when helped revive a woman who became unconscious on a US Airways flight from Houston to Phoenix.
At a hearing on Tuesday, January 11, 2011, Conrad Murray was ordered to stand trial on a count of involuntary manslaughter and Judge Michael Pastor then ordered the suspension of Murray's license as a condition to the doctor's bail.

The ruling was issued by Los Angeles Superior Judge Michael Pastor after a six-day preliminary hearing that included more than 20 witnesses who mostly detailed Murray's actions during Jackson's final hours.

The California Medical Board has already tried several times to have Dr. Conrad Murray's license suspended.

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/Media/conrad-murray-due-court-katherine-joe-jackson-fight/story?id=10910329

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-jackson-doctor-in-court-wednesday,0,3544076.story

So which is it? Did he get his liscense suspended or not. And is it just in California or all over? What you posted is really confusing.

One of the earlier witnesses had worked for Murray in his Las Vegas clinic and stated she did not work for him anymore because he had to close his clinic.

Crosby87
10-20-2011, 06:25 PM
So which is it? Did he get his liscense suspended or not. And is it just in California or all over? What you posted is really confusing.

One of the earlier witnesses had worked for Murray in his Las Vegas clinic and stated she did not work for him anymore because he had to close his clinic.

I had major computer problems this afternoon so I edited my post so it makes sense.

CarolinaMoon
10-20-2011, 06:38 PM
Dr. Shafer continued the demonstration of the set-up and showed how difficult it would be to allow for the correct dosage of propofol. As he explained that he had done calculations and figured out that the propofol had to have 15 seconds between the drips.

At that point, the defense objected to the demonstration and the attorneys went to a sidebar.

One thing is sure. CM probably didn't know how to do the calculations IMHO.

White is definately not sitting at the defense table.

The objection was apparently overruled and the demonstration continued. Flannagan did point out that the saline line was different from the evidence. It serves the same function. The propofol line was the same as the one CM ordered (but not found at the scene). Shafer then demonstrated how he attempted to set up the slit bag with the propofol bottle attached.

CarolinaMoon
10-20-2011, 06:56 PM
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii103/ritanita/Misc%20Crimes/Propofolbottle.jpg

This set up wouldn't make a difference, according to Shafer.

When finished with the demonstration, Whalgren (sp?) asked Shafer to state his opinion. Defense objected and was overruled. We heard it before, with the addition of the fact that CM was responsible for every drop of propofol in the room.

Judge Pastor called it a day at 6:55 pm. Long day tomorrow, I assume.

Forgot to add that it was brought up that there was no propofol in the saline tube. Whalgren asked Shafer if the tubing with the propofol could be rolled up and held in one's hand. It could... indicating that PERHAPS CM took it from the scene without any problems in concealing it.

oceanblueeyes
10-20-2011, 08:09 PM
So which is it? Did he get his liscense suspended or not. And is it just in California or all over? What you posted is really confusing.

One of the earlier witnesses had worked for Murray in his Las Vegas clinic and stated she did not work for him anymore because he had to close his clinic.

I put up information the other day about Murray letting his license expire in LV in June, 2011.

Thats ok because I dont think he is going to be needing them anyway. Imo, he will lose his license in all three states once this trial is over with. The MB is just waiting to swoop in.

IM

oceanblueeyes
10-20-2011, 08:15 PM
OMG. Attys are at sidebar, conferring with Judge.
CM's expression! Like he is seeing a ghost!

And I have to leave! Just when it looks like something big's gonna happen.

Oh darn. Now a little break time so the Jurors can use the bathroom.

Please... someone keep transcribing so I can come right back after the dentist and see what happened.

Thanx in advance.

P.S. I understand the IV set up and what Dr Shafer thinks CM did. I don't need that explained, but anything else worth reporting.... TIA

To me he had that 'deer in the headlights' look. He really thought no one would be able to figure out what he did.

Whatta closing for the state!:woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

peace9274
10-20-2011, 08:18 PM
At a hearing on June 14 2010, Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor refused to suspend Murray's California medical license despite a request by state authorities to bar him from praticing, saying he did not have the authority to revoke it.

The cardiologist has continued to work in Houston and Las Vegas, where he maintains practices. His attorney, Ed Chernoff, has argued that the loss of Murray's California medical license will negatively affect his Texas and Nevada operations, and filed court papers Friday revealing that those states have allowed Murray to practice provided he doesn't administer sedatives like Propofol.

Murray gained a much-needed dose of good press last month when helped revive a woman who became unconscious on a US Airways flight from Houston to Phoenix.

At a hearing on Tuesday, January 11, 2011, Conrad Murray was ordered to stand trial on a count of involuntary manslaughter and Judge Michael Pastor then ordered the suspension of Murray's license as a condition to the doctor's bail.

The ruling was issued by Los Angeles Superior Judge Michael Pastor after a six-day preliminary hearing that included Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor said testimony presented during a six-day hearing into Murray's treatment of the pop icon had convinced him that allowing the cardiologist to keep his license "would constitute an imminent danger to public safety."

More than 20 witnesses who mostly detailed Murray's actions during Jackson's final hours testified at the preliminary hearing.

The California Medical Board has already tried several times to have Dr. Conrad Murray's license suspended.

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/Media/conrad-murray-due-court-katherine-joe-jackson-fight/story?id=10910329

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-jackson-doctor-in-court-wednesday,0,3544076.story

BBM

Thanks for all your info, Bluesky. Your last sentence that I bolded... that is so weird.
I thought the Licensing Boards for Doctors and Nurses, PAs, Pharmacists, et al had the
final say in determining whether a license will be suspended. Guess not.

peace9274
10-20-2011, 08:23 PM
So which is it? Did he get his liscense suspended or not. And is it just in California or all over? What you posted is really confusing.

One of the earlier witnesses had worked for Murray in his Las Vegas clinic and stated she did not work for him anymore because he had to close his clinic.

Even if he were allowed to keep his license, his clinic and be allowed to continue practicing as before...
I'd place bets that he lost a lot of patients..... and business ain't doing so well.

peace9274
10-20-2011, 08:38 PM
Thanx for transcribing, everyone, while I was gone!

I guess there wasn't as much of a "big deal" about to happen as I thought there'd be... just as I left for my dental appt.

But CM, while his attys were at sidebar, and after they returned, looked sooo frightened and
as though he were about to lose any composure he had left. Like he wanted some answers
immediately or wanted to know what was discussed up there.

It's weird because the call to approach the bench (not sure who called it, I think one of the defense guys did),
happened immediately after CM wrote something on his pad and then shoved it over to his white haired atty to his left.

Can't even remember his name! My brain is one big fuzz ball!
Caused by my dentist, who was taking too long and talking too much.

Oh... and I forgot to ask her if she ever uses propofol. Darn it.

borndem
10-20-2011, 09:15 PM
Fat content higher on a woman?
Just guessing, though.... without hurting my brain,
trying to remember the real reason.

Can hormones affect metabolism? Organ size? Different reproductive systems? Post-menopausal? Muscle mass? XX vs XY chromosome?

No idea.

borndem
10-20-2011, 09:19 PM
Was the ox. tank full? anyone know?


IIRC, it was empty.

SATA
10-20-2011, 09:52 PM
I wasn't looking at my screen, but I heard the loud laughter after Dr Shafer made a joke.

Anyone see if the DT and Conrad laughed, too??

They didnīt. They looked stone faced.

But I did catch a glimpse of Murray smiling briefly today - as if he has anything to smile about!

outofstatelawyer
10-20-2011, 09:56 PM
On HLN during the lunch break, one of the male TH's who was in the courtroom reported that there was a loud conversation between Flannagan and White. All he reported was that he heard the phrase, "don't take it personally" by Flannagan. Oh, to know everything the reporter heard! Seems Dr. White is none too happy about what his old friend is saying about him.

I have a feeling that the defense will wrap up later today and Flannagan will be crossing well into tomorrow, if not all day. IMHO only.

Peace, I have just finished all the appointments I cancelled during the CA trial this summer!

Actually, I think the reporter said it was Chernoff, not Flanagan. Chernoff has been doing the objections, so he will likely be the one cross examining Dr. Shaffer.

But yeah, seems like Dr. White was rattled by Shaffer's testimony. This should be interesting.

Crosby87
10-20-2011, 10:20 PM
BBM

Thanks for all your info, Bluesky. Your last sentence that I bolded... that is so weird.
I thought the Licensing Boards for Doctors and Nurses, PAs, Pharmacists, et al had the
final say in determining whether a license will be suspended. Guess not.

I thought Dr. Murray had been allowed to treat patients until his trial began so I'm glad I'm up to speed and know this isn't true.

I saw a transcript online of the discussions that took place between the Licensing Boards and Judge Pastor over Dr. Murray's medical license but my computer crashed before I saved it. I'm going to go search for it because I found it interesting.

The Medical Board of California has asked the court twice before to yank Murray's license, to no avail. But minutes after ordering Murray to stand trial, Judge Pastor granted the request.

Dr. Murray has 24 hours to notify the medical boards in Texas and Nevada of Judge Pastor's decision.

It's a devastating blow to Murray, because he needs to practice to make enough money to pay his legal team. Murray's team believes the move is designed to take away his right to defend himself in the manslaughter trial.

http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/11/dr-conrad-murray-medical-license-suspended-michael-jackson-manslaughter-trial-medical-board/

Another article states,

Judge Pastor granted a request by the California Medical Board to suspend Dr.Conrad Murray’s license to practice medicine in the state. Pastor said he made the decision in the interest of public safety and ordered Murray to notify every district in which he practices of the decision within 24 hours. Murray has clinics in Houston and Las Vegas.

http://mjstar.co.uk/index.php/2011/01/12/dr-conrad-murrays-medical-license-suspended/

oceanblueeyes
10-20-2011, 10:49 PM
IIRC, it was empty.

Do you think when he walked back in and found him not breathing he used all of the oxygen in the tank trying to revive him?

It never made any sense why it was empty. On these smaller tanks there is a gage right on the tanks that shows how much is in there.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
10-20-2011, 11:03 PM
I thought Dr. Murray had been allowed to treat patients until his trial began so I'm glad I'm up to speed and know this isn't true.

I saw a transcript online of the discussions that took place between the Licensing Boards and Judge Pastor over Dr. Murray's medical license but my computer crashed before I saved it. I'm going to go search for it because I found it interesting.

The Medical Board of California has asked the court twice before to yank Murray's license, to no avail. But minutes after ordering Murray to stand trial, Judge Pastor granted the request.

Dr. Murray has 24 hours to notify the medical boards in Texas and Nevada of Judge Pastor's decision.

It's a devastating blow to Murray, because he needs to practice to make enough money to pay his legal team. Murray's team believes the move is designed to take away his right to defend himself in the manslaughter trial.

http://www.tmz.com/2011/01/11/dr-conrad-murray-medical-license-suspended-michael-jackson-manslaughter-trial-medical-board/

Another article states,

Judge Pastor granted a request by the California Medical Board to suspend Dr.Conrad Murray’s license to practice medicine in the state. Pastor said he made the decision in the interest of public safety and ordered Murray to notify every district in which he practices of the decision within 24 hours. Murray has clinics in Houston and Las Vegas.

http://mjstar.co.uk/index.php/2011/01/12/dr-conrad-murrays-medical-license-suspended/

He really didn't actively practice in California anymore anyway. I believe the last time he used his license was when he lived in San Diego. He and his wife moved away from there when he got involved with another woman and fathered another child. That is when they moved to Las Vegas and both opened a practice there.

The medical board will revoke his license. IMO, he will lose them in all three states. No one can find out any information about Hawaii even though he says he is licensed there too. Beth Karas said she has checked with the HMB and his name is not listed.

When the MB comes to court wanting a doctor's license revoked is because they think the public at large is not safe with this doctor left out there to practice medicine.

When a license is being considered for revocation by the MB it is like a mini-trial.It can take quite a long time to complete. They do not meet everyday. Someone presides over the hearings and evidence will be entered and they will have witnesses from both sides who testifies. This will be done after the resolution of the criminal trial. Imo it will go forward whether there is a conviction or not. CM has highly offended the medical community and they are going to come down hard on him.

His license in LV is expired as of June 30, 2011. He did not renew them imo because he knows it is futile and a waste of time and money.

Crosby87
10-20-2011, 11:03 PM
After Michael Jackson's death, petitions went to the Medical Board of CA demanding the suspension of Conrad Murray’s medical license.
PETITION FOR THE SUSPENSION OF THE MEDICAL LICENSE OF CONRAD MURRAY - YouTube

The Attorney General of California Jerry Brown and the Medical Board of California on April 5 filed a request with the Superior Court of California to have Conrad Murray’s license suspended.

Deputy Attorney General Trina L Saunders under the authority of Penal Code Section 23, recommended that the court issue an order requiring that as a bail condition, Conrad Murray, cease and desist from practicing medicine in the State of California.

http://www.justice4mj.com/blog/2010/12/17/conrad-murrays-license-suspension-medical-board-of-californi.html

oceanblueeyes
10-20-2011, 11:09 PM
They didnīt. They looked stone faced.

But I did catch a glimpse of Murray smiling briefly today - as if he has anything to smile about!

The last hour and a half Murray showed more emotion than he ever has. He looked scared to death.

But it seems like the whining has begun.:floorlaugh:

UPDATE 3:05 p.m. Pastor immediately called for a break after Murray lost his cool in response to Shafer using an actual infusion stand to demonstrate how Murray could have dosed Michael Jackson with propofol. "Can you believe that?" Murray whispered to Dr. Paul White, an expected defense witness. "What a scumbag," White told the media seated near him.


Read more: http://www.eonline.com/news/michael_jackson_manslaughter_trial/270524#ixzz1bNX9lEPI

borndem
10-20-2011, 11:10 PM
FYI, Dr. Conrad Murray arrived holding hands with his mother on the opening day of his trial.

Maybe his mother is staying with him during the trial?

Does anyone know whether Dr. Murray's mother or Nicole Alvarez have been in Court everyday? Is there anyone there to support him other than his lawyers?

The camera focused on Dr. Murray alot this morning while Dr. Shafer was testifying.

My video connection quit on me so I missed parts of Dr. Shafer's testimony.


BBM -Yes, you're right, Bluesky, about the cameras, they have been focusing on CM quite a bit, and he hasn't been lookin' too good. Honestly.

He has had a pen in his hand, on a pad of paper, but I haven't seen him write one thing. The pen is stuck on one place. He has really been listening, seems to me. I think he is learning something from the witness, IMO. And, really, he just looks crestfallen and worried. I think finally he has realized what a sticky wicket he created for himself when he talked with the LEO's. He has been stuck in that corner into which he painted himself ever since this thing began, as so many of us have discussed.

And I, too, wonder if he has been in any previous jam-ups in a hospital or in his practices. I'm betting yes. He's either lazy or not very competent or both.

And I have no pity for him. Not one speck.

borndem
10-21-2011, 12:41 AM
Dr. Murray's bail terms allowed him to continue practicing medicine after Michael died and imo his medical license should have been suspended either by the Court or through the governing body that oversees the conduct of local physicians and surgeons.

Does anyone know whether Dr. Murray actually did return to work after he was officially charged with MJ's death?

In a recent case here in NC, a doctor was driving drunk (BAC 0.16) IIRC, traveling 80--85 mph, and he rear-ended a car driven by a young ballerina. She was instantly killed and he was uninjured. He was eventually charged with 2nd degree murder, but the jury also could render a verdict on a lesser charge of "death by vehicle." The doctor had a very good attorney, and was out on bail immediately. The doctor's lawyer told him to immediately surrender his medical license and to get into rehab for alcoholism asap. He was convicted of d.b.vehicle and is actively serving a 3yr to 4yr/5mo sentence. (!)

My point is the bolded sentence above. Smart lawyer, IMO. The doc will have to ask for his license to be returned to him, etc., etc.

shgrbkr
10-21-2011, 02:46 AM
HHMMM, witness just showed how there is a part of the label on the propofol bottle that is used as a hanger, who knew? So then why was the saline bag split open. Didn't Murray realize the propofol bottle had a hanger on it?

I have given propofol many times, and when I saw that the saline bag was cut open with the bottle inside, I was puzzled. Still am. Generally, you have an IV line with saline and the propofol is hung via it's own tubing, sometimes to a dedicated IV site, and sometimes the propofol tubing is plugged into the saline tubing at the closest port to the patient. The IV bag is NEVER opened in any situation during an infusion. That would contaminate the line and possibly introduce bacteria into the line. IMO, the bag may have been cut and the propofol bottle thrown in just as you are getting rid of it to be thrown away. In this, or any case, though, that would be a pointless, time consuming step. I still don't understand what that's about. At any rate, the propofol I used for infusions were sent up from the pharmacy with a little bag that would hold the bottle and be used for a hanger. Looks like they make them with a plastic hanger on the bottle nowadays.

Drugs are metabolized by the liver and kidneys in both men and women. Diprivan, however, is a lipid based drug, which may make it metabolize differently depending upon the amount of fat on a person. In MJ's case, he was so thin, I can't imagine how this would have behaved in his body. Seems to me the health of the liver would be more important. Also, if he was accustomed to getting Lorazepam, he would have some tolerance, but the only time I've heard of a patient getting that much of it is when I took care of burn patients in an ICU setting and the real bad ones would be on a drip. Of course, THEY WERE MONITORED, unlike MJ.

cece5300
10-21-2011, 04:54 AM
I hope this is ok to ask this here; I apologize as I haven't been closely following this trial (after this past summer's disastrous CA trial outcome I was trial'd out. But I'm ready to jump back into following this trial now) : How much jail time could Dr Murray face if convicted? I tried to find out online but one answer I found said "none". I thought I'd come here and ask.

Talina
10-21-2011, 08:25 AM
I hope this is ok to ask this here; I apologize as I haven't been closely following this trial (after this past summer's disastrous CA trial outcome I was trial'd out. But I'm ready to jump back into following this trial now) : How much jail time could Dr Murray face if convicted? I tried to find out online but one answer I found said "none". I thought I'd come here and ask.

He is charged with Involuntary Manslaughter and the max sentence is 4 yrs.

oceanblueeyes
10-21-2011, 08:25 AM
I hope this is ok to ask this here; I apologize as I haven't been closely following this trial (after this past summer's disastrous CA trial outcome I was trial'd out. But I'm ready to jump back into following this trial now) : How much jail time could Dr Murray face if convicted? I tried to find out online but one answer I found said "none". I thought I'd come here and ask.

The video is on line somewhere (sorry I dont know where-maybe on the ABC local LA news station but I heard it again recently.

As Judge Pastor reads the indictment to Murray he states afterward that if convicted he could serve up to four years in state prison.

However in California it seems very little defendants do time so he may get to serve time in jail, house arrest or probation.

That is why I believe the charges should have been higher since his acts were so far beyond gross recklessness and neglect.

But whether he is even found guilty or not he will always be known as the man who killed MJ. And once the trial is over all three MBs are going to strip him of his licenses, imo.

IMO

Talina
10-21-2011, 08:30 AM
I have given propofol many times, and when I saw that the saline bag was cut open with the bottle inside, I was puzzled. Still am. Generally, you have an IV line with saline and the propofol is hung via it's own tubing, sometimes to a dedicated IV site, and sometimes the propofol tubing is plugged into the saline tubing at the closest port to the patient. The IV bag is NEVER opened in any situation during an infusion. That would contaminate the line and possibly introduce bacteria into the line. IMO, the bag may have been cut and the propofol bottle thrown in just as you are getting rid of it to be thrown away. In this, or any case, though, that would be a pointless, time consuming step. I still don't understand what that's about. At any rate, the propofol I used for infusions were sent up from the pharmacy with a little bag that would hold the bottle and be used for a hanger. Looks like they make them with a plastic hanger on the bottle nowadays.

Drugs are metabolized by the liver and kidneys in both men and women. Diprivan, however, is a lipid based drug, which may make it metabolize differently depending upon the amount of fat on a person. In MJ's case, he was so thin, I can't imagine how this would have behaved in his body. Seems to me the health of the liver would be more important. Also, if he was accustomed to getting Lorazepam, he would have some tolerance, but the only time I've heard of a patient getting that much of it is when I took care of burn patients in an ICU setting and the real bad ones would be on a drip. Of course, THEY WERE MONITORED, unlike MJ.

He made his own hanger for the propofol bottle ( he didn't know it had it's own hanger on the bottle apparently) by slitting a saline solution bag and using that to hold the bottle by inserting the bottle into it. Sanitary condition of the saline solution wasn't an issue. That is not the saline solution he was using. He had a totally different saline solution bag with the main IV line that was attached to the IV catheter going into MJ's leg. The bag with the slit in it served no purpose other than to hold the propofol bottle up for the drip to work (similar to how you describe your propofol bottles were given to you with a bag to use for hanging the bottle - his was just homemade)

oceanblueeyes
10-21-2011, 08:34 AM
He is charged with Involuntary Manslaughter and the max sentence is 4 yrs.

Morning Talina!

Do you think Judge Pastor will get wind of the comment Dr. White made to the media? Remember there is a gag order in place and Dr. White is part of the DT who has been sitting at the defense table.

I think it is quite unprofessional of Dr. White and shows his buttons can easily be pushed.

Why would he be upset? It was his own theory that the propofol could be orally ingested. Its not Dr. Shafer's fault that it was a ludicrous theory.

IMO

Talina
10-21-2011, 08:36 AM
I just had a thought. Remember CM says that he let Dr. Adams use his office in LV to give MJ propofol for a few hours so he could "sleep"? Dr.Adams has come out screaming and kicking over that being said in CMs interview with detectives. After the day we listened to that tape played in court, Dr. Adams attorney was hitting the news circuit for a day or so (and has since disappeared) saying that is not true and Dr. Adams says he has given MJ propofol in the past for legitimate dental reasons and that he has NEVER given it to him at CMs office.

I tend to believe that to be true. If MJ had received propofol from Dr.Adams at CM's office, then CM would have known how to properly hang the propofol bottle. I seriously doubt Dr. Adams uses a slit saline bag to hang a propofol bottle.

oceanblueeyes
10-21-2011, 08:36 AM
He made his own hanger for the propofol bottle ( he didn't know it had it's own hanger on the bottle apparently) by slitting a saline solution bag and using that to hold the bottle by inserting the bottle into it. Sanitary condition of the saline solution wasn't an issue. That is not the saline solution he was using. He had a totally different saline solution bag with the main IV line that was attached to the IV catheter going into MJ's leg. The bag with the slit in it served no purpose other than to hold the propofol bottle up for the drip to work (similar to how you describe your propofol bottles were given to you with a bag to use for hanging the bottle - his was just homemade)

I couldnt believe when he shut the saline bag IV line off how quickly the propofol drip sped up.

oceanblueeyes
10-21-2011, 08:47 AM
I just had a thought. Remember CM says that he let Dr. Adams use his office in LV to give MJ propofol for a few hours so he could "sleep"? Dr.Adams has come out screaming and kicking over that being said in CMs interview with detectives. After the day we listened to that tape played in court, Dr. Adams attorney was hitting the news circuit for a day or so (and has since disappeared) saying that is not true and Dr. Adams says he has given MJ propofol in the past for legitimate dental reasons and that he has NEVER given it to him at CMs office.

I tend to believe that to be true. If MJ had received propofol from Dr.Adams at CM's office, then CM would have known how to properly hang the propofol bottle. I seriously doubt Dr. Adams uses a slit saline bag to hang a propofol bottle.

I cant wait until Dr. Adams testifies.

He also said that CM had been asking LV doctors to give propofol to MJ since 2007. So could he not find anyone willing to do it in the home and decided he would do it himself and keep all of the big bucks coming in each month.

Sure seems like $$$$$$$ motivated him to do it himself.

It will be interesting who Walgren calls in rebuttal.

I think CM was clueless about hanging the propofol up on the IV pole so he jerry rigged the bag and I was really amazed how well it worked. Of course he had it hung at the same level as the saline bag and that is a no no because of the gravity pull.

IMO

Talina
10-21-2011, 08:47 AM
Morning Talina!

Do you think Judge Pastor will get wind of the comment Dr. White made to the media? Remember there is a gag order in place and Dr. White is part of the DT who has been sitting at the defense table.

I think it is quite unprofessional of Dr. White and shows his buttons can easily be pushed.

Why would he be upset? It was his own theory that the propofol could be orally ingested. Its not Dr. Shafer's fault that it was a ludicrous theory.

IMO

Hi there! How are you feeling this morning?

I don't know but I'll be very surprised if Judge Pastor doesn't get wind of the comments reportedly said by Dr. White. I'll be equally surprised if he doesn't take him to task for it, as he should.

IMO the only time some one reacts as Dr. White is reacting is if he has no legitimate way of discrediting what has been said. If he was so sure he was the one that is right between the two of them, he'd wait his turn and relish in the types of questions he has given the defense to ask on cross and then just patiently wait, bask in the glory of his own testimony and discredit Dr.Shafer in the process. After his display yesterday, I just don't see that happening.

I find the timing of the sequence of events to be amusing to be honest. Dr. White was retained by the defense before the prosecution retained Dr.Shafter (from what I have gathered). If that is accurate and I understood correctly what Walgren brought out on direct, they had Dr. White's report, had Dr. Shafer review it and said can you help us out here. The first time Dr. Shafer and Walgren spoke was in March of this year.

I think Dr. White thought he was going to be the big guns in this trial with his "father of propofol" label that the defense has placed on him and much to his dismay not only did Dr. Shafer enter stage left, knocking his report into space but also said to the world who the true father of propofol is and it isn't Dr.White. Dr.White has also been saying to the defense team that Dr. Shafter was a student of his in medical school and again said that to the E!Online yesterday. Walgren asked Dr. Shafer this right when he got on the stand and Dr. Shafer said that is not true.

What I find even more amusing is that in order to calculate some of the charts and modeling that Dr.Shafer used for his review and testimony, he used a published, peer reviewed paper that gives these formulas - authored by none other than Dr. White. How does Dr. White then come and discredit that? :floorlaugh:

I think Dr. White is in deep doo doo and he knows it. Hence his temper tantrum yesterday.

oceanblueeyes
10-21-2011, 09:14 AM
Hi there! How are you feeling this morning?

I don't know but I'll be very surprised if Judge Pastor doesn't get wind of the comments reportedly said by Dr. White. I'll be equally surprised if he doesn't take him to task for it, as he should.

IMO the only time some one reacts as Dr. White is reacting is if he has no legitimate way of discrediting what has been said. If he was so sure he was the one that is right between the two of them, he'd wait his turn and relish in the types of questions he has given the defense to ask on cross and then just patiently wait, bask in the glory of his own testimony and discredit Dr.Shafer in the process. After his display yesterday, I just don't see that happening.

I find the timing of the sequence of events to be amusing to be honest. Dr. White was retained by the defense before the prosecution retained Dr.Shafter (from what I have gathered). If that is accurate and I understood correctly what Walgren brought out on direct, they had Dr. White's report, had Dr. Shafer review it and said can you help us out here. The first time Dr. Shafer and Walgren spoke was in March of this year.

I think Dr. White thought he was going to be the big guns in this trial with his "father of propofol" label that the defense has placed on him and much to his dismay not only did Dr. Shafer enter stage left, knocking his report into space but also said to the world who the true father of propofol is and it isn't Dr.White. Dr.White has also been saying to the defense team that Dr. Shafter was a student of his in medical school and again said that to the E!Online yesterday. Walgren asked Dr. Shafer this right when he got on the stand and Dr. Shafer said that is not true.

What I find even more amusing is that in order to calculate some of the charts and modeling that Dr.Shafer used for his review and testimony, he used a published, peer reviewed paper that gives these formulas - authored by none other than Dr. White. How does Dr. White then come and discredit that? :floorlaugh:

I think Dr. White is in deep doo doo and he knows it. Hence his temper tantrum yesterday.

Thanking you for asking but I am no better. I am sure it will take awhile to get over it although I am darn ready for that to happen.:floorlaugh:

It reminds me of the Anthony case when Dr. Rodriquez said he was co-founder of the Body Farm with Dr. Bass. A blatant embellished lie to pump up his CV.

No doubt the direct examination was ingenious. What better way to dismantle defense theories than use their own defense expert's research and opinions.:floorlaugh:

If Dr. White even considered oral ingestion it does give me pause if he really is on top of his game.:waitasec: Surely he could have researched it before rendering such a silly opinion and learned it is based on no literature to back it up. Even our wonderful nurses here have long told us that drinking propofol would not kill anyone.

I want to see if he is being paid for his services. If so can you imagine how much it is costing just for him to sit in the courtroom everyday?

imo

CarolinaMoon
10-21-2011, 09:40 AM
Hi there! How are you feeling this morning?

I don't know but I'll be very surprised if Judge Pastor doesn't get wind of the comments reportedly said by Dr. White. I'll be equally surprised if he doesn't take him to task for it, as he should.

IMO the only time some one reacts as Dr. White is reacting is if he has no legitimate way of discrediting what has been said. If he was so sure he was the one that is right between the two of them, he'd wait his turn and relish in the types of questions he has given the defense to ask on cross and then just patiently wait, bask in the glory of his own testimony and discredit Dr.Shafer in the process. After his display yesterday, I just don't see that happening.

I find the timing of the sequence of events to be amusing to be honest. Dr. White was retained by the defense before the prosecution retained Dr.Shafter (from what I have gathered). If that is accurate and I understood correctly what Walgren brought out on direct, they had Dr. White's report, had Dr. Shafer review it and said can you help us out here. The first time Dr. Shafer and Walgren spoke was in March of this year.

I think Dr. White thought he was going to be the big guns in this trial with his "father of propofol" label that the defense has placed on him and much to his dismay not only did Dr. Shafer enter stage left, knocking his report into space but also said to the world who the true father of propofol is and it isn't Dr.White. Dr.White has also been saying to the defense team that Dr. Shafter was a student of his in medical school and again said that to the E!Online yesterday. Walgren asked Dr. Shafer this right when he got on the stand and Dr. Shafer said that is not true.

What I find even more amusing is that in order to calculate some of the charts and modeling that Dr.Shafer used for his review and testimony, he used a published, peer reviewed paper that gives these formulas - authored by none other than Dr. White. How does Dr. White then come and discredit that? :floorlaugh:

I think Dr. White is in deep doo doo and he knows it. Hence his temper tantrum yesterday.

I've been following the trial as best I can, considering we have been doing some remodeling here and it is a noisey, busy place. I am only now getting up to speed on which attorney does what and learning about the situation between Dr. White and Dr. Shafer.

Having just had a nephew finish his PhD, I've been with him through the trials and travails of dueling mentors. He had to drop one because of the infighting he was causing. Academia is a brutal place, as has been shown by Dr. White's recent behavior and by some of the caustic comments aimed at him by Dr. Shafer. It's going on from both sides here.

What is very bad for the defense is that White showed his hand openly in court and to the press yesterday. I'm sure Pastor will be having a "chat" before court today.

It is also bad for the defense that White is now considered by the jury to be on shakey ground with his original report. Chernoff, from the reports I've seen will be doing the cross today. Why the change? Is White angry with Flannagan? Will White, when it comes his turn to testify bring his anger into his testimony?

Fascinating dynamics going on here. :rollercoaster:

MHO only.

oceanblueeyes
10-21-2011, 10:21 AM
Beth gets transcripts of the side bars.

She said she believes there is a rift within the defense team.

And that is why Chernoff is taking over cross examination of propofol expert.

It seems Flanigan is not wanting to cross examine DS.

IMO

JusticeMustPrevail
10-21-2011, 11:00 AM
Beth gets transcripts of the side bars.

She said she believes there is a rift within the defense team.

And that is why Chernoff is taking over cross examination of propofol expert.

It seems Flanigan is not wanting to cross examine DS.

IMO


My prayers have been answered!

:floorlaugh: