PDA

View Full Version : Pat Brown compares Lisa case to other cases.


Kat
10-20-2011, 10:07 PM
http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_missouri/northland/criminal-profiler-compares-baby-lisa-case-to-other-child-abductions

Posted: 10/20/2011
Last Updated: 1 hour and 51 minutes ago


BY: Chris Hernandez

A criminal profiler based in Washington D.C. wrote a blog post about the Baby Lisa case, comparing it to two other well known cases from Florida and England

I have seen quite a few of our members giving POV's that this case is similar to others and thought that it might be a good thread for those what wish to discuss this aspect.

Mods, please merge if this needs to be within another thread. I looked but didn't see a mod currently online. Thanks!

This is a MSM article but there are links to PB's blog. Ask a mod if we can discuss details of blog before quoting please.

Also, if this remains a thread, please add your tags to the tags for this thread (if it remains a seperate thread) for the cases you wish to discuss in comparison. :)

epiphany
10-20-2011, 10:15 PM
Snipped

But we should emphasize that she [Pat Brown], like many others writing about this case, are not on the ground here.

They are examining the case by following it closely in the media.

Read more: http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_missouri/northland/criminal-profiler-compares-baby-lisa-case-to-other-child-abductions#ixzz1bNVz37Wj

LOL LOL Is NBC or Chris Hernandez kidding me? What ridiculous statements! Course, MOO.

Snipped

Chris Hernandez is the political and City Hall reporter for NBC Action News. He has a special touch for putting political coverage in perspective.

Read more: http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/about_us/staff/Chris-Hernandez%3Cbr--%3EPolitical-Reporter#ixzz1bNWaIR8l

Yup. He sure does spin!

Kat
10-20-2011, 10:17 PM
I get your point epiph. But I brought it here because I thought other members might want to discuss those aspects. If not the mods will delete it.

epiphany
10-20-2011, 10:21 PM
I get your point epiph. But I brought it here because I thought other members might want to discuss those aspects. If not the mods will delete it.

No, No! No criticism of you posting it at all, Kat! Don't even know your opinion of it.

Kat
10-20-2011, 10:26 PM
I don't have one LOL :)

I just thought well let's have a look? I do think that there are some similarities that I have seen pointed out by other members to some of our cases. But I don't know what that might mean? They could be similar for a number of reasons.

But I found this if anyone wants an overview of one of the cases being compared.

http://www.wltx.com/news/article/54798/2/Soldiers-Baby-Found-Dead-In-Attic-Mom-Charged-With-Murder

Now the case above I didn't really follow so I have to go dig up some info to see if what is being seen as a similiarity is in fact really there. KWIM?

I've also seen the Anthony case, the Cummings case and the Ainsberg case brought up too. I don't see it, but I would love to read other's thoughts on it.

epiphany
10-20-2011, 10:26 PM
Why couldn't the journalist even name the case in England---the McCann Case?

After all, he refers to Pat Brown as an "expert" in the same article.

Kat
10-20-2011, 10:28 PM
I don't see the McCann case as similar in any way? I didn't read PB's blogs though :blush: I'll wait and see if we have a member that sees it :)

cluciano63
10-20-2011, 10:31 PM
Pat Brown had some legal trouble over the McCann case...maybe that is why not mentioned by name?

Since that case was never solved, I don't know how it can be compared to any other; for that matter, any unsolved case remains a mystery. It does sound the closest to Sabrina (Lisa's case, I mean) from what we have heard. JMO

epiphany
10-20-2011, 10:32 PM
NBC Action News tried to confirm that the Bradley's lived at Fort Bragg in '07, but the mother of Lisa's ex said she couldn't remember, and a spokesman at Fort Bragg said they only keep those records going back two years.

Read more: http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_missouri/northland/criminal-profiler-compares-baby-lisa-case-to-other-child-abductions#ixzz1bNbBeIm8

Only two years? Hmmm. Really?

HatesSociopaths
10-20-2011, 10:34 PM
I am betting Debbie lived at Ft Bragg in 2007, (edit)

This copy-cat possibility is starting to look VERY possible, IMO.

epiphany
10-20-2011, 10:39 PM
I am betting Debbie lived at Ft Bragg in 2007, based on her "can't remember" answer. Who would forget that?

This copy-cat possibility is starting to look VERY possible, IMO.

Yes. I'm curious about confirmation concerning whether or not she lived there in 2007. Cause if she did, yeah...well, that's interesting.

cachmo
10-20-2011, 10:42 PM
NBC Action News tried to confirm that the Bradley's lived at Fort Bragg in '07, but the mother of Lisa's ex said she couldn't remember, and a spokesman at Fort Bragg said they only keep those records going back two years.

Read more: http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_missouri/northland/criminal-profiler-compares-baby-lisa-case-to-other-child-abductions#ixzz1bNbBeIm8

Only two years? Hmmm. Really?

I think this deserves attention.

Kat
10-20-2011, 10:44 PM
NBC Action News tried to confirm that the Bradley's lived at Fort Bragg in '07, but the mother of Lisa's ex said she couldn't remember, and a spokesman at Fort Bragg said they only keep those records going back two years.

Read more: http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_missouri/northland/criminal-profiler-compares-baby-lisa-case-to-other-child-abductions#ixzz1bNbBeIm8

Only two years? Hmmm. Really?

Naw, they just don't give that info out. They know who was there---they'd be able to give the info to FBI or local LE if asked, but PR office won't answer a question like that to media. Just my personal experience with the military. JMHO too.

Kat
10-20-2011, 10:45 PM
I have to go get my kids from dentist. Have a great day all! :seeya:

epiphany
10-20-2011, 10:47 PM
And likely they (Fort Bragg) have been asked/told not to confirm or deny that information.

Codger
10-20-2011, 10:53 PM
IIRC - It was 4 years ago that DB + SB separated or began proceedings towards the divorce that is as of yet not finalized. That would be 2007. Of course I don't know if they lived at another base after Fort Bragg + before they separated. I was just going to ass-ume ;) The similarities in this case with Lisa's case are a bit overwhelming...
MOO of course

Abby Normal
10-20-2011, 11:03 PM
NBC Action News tried to confirm that the Bradley's lived at Fort Bragg in '07, but the mother of Lisa's ex said she couldn't remember, and a spokesman at Fort Bragg said they only keep those records going back two years.

Read more: http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/new...#ixzz1bNbBeIm8

Only two years? Hmmm. Really?


The mother of Debbie's Ex?

I am betting Debbie lived at Ft Bragg in 2007, based on her "can't remember" answer. Who would forget that?

This copy-cat possibility is starting to look VERY possible, IMO.

The mother of Lisa's ex? :innocent:

I doubt my MIL could say where we lived in any given year either.

Codger
10-20-2011, 11:07 PM
There's been much comparison of various cases amongst the discussions + for me, I see bits here + there.
:twocents: My first reaction on day 1 + 2, was the parents struck me as similar in the way they presented themselves as compared to Terri + Kaine Horman.
I see similarities in the: "I was at werk", "I was asleep, I don't remember", door open, light on, gone from right under someone's nose supposedly, sibling remembers "noises" + probably more I've forgotten, compared with the Haleigh Cummings case.
I can see shades of the Jon Benet Ramsey case too.

Of course these are cases I've followed, so I wonder sometimes if my mind doesn't try to find the similarities even if there's not much there. This baby at Fort Bragg in 2007 found in the attic has a whole list of similarities! It's been eating at me since DB made the comment about following other cases herself. Nothing nefarious, there's just something about the way that was said ... well it just bugs me. MOO of course.

Yes, I'm probably the last human that did not follow the Anthony case. I had much too strong a gut reaction immediately + couldn't follow along or I would've blown at least 2 gaskets! I'm not familiar with the McCann or Eisenberg (sp?) cases, so there's more reading I need to catch up on apparently. :sigh:

Jaxson
10-20-2011, 11:17 PM
I am betting Debbie lived at Ft Bragg in 2007, (edit)

This copy-cat possibility is starting to look VERY possible, IMO.

Why would she copy a scenario that failed, and rather quickly too.

cluciano63
10-20-2011, 11:22 PM
There's been much comparison of various cases amongst the discussions + for me, I see bits here + there.
:twocents: My first reaction on day 1 + 2, was the parents struck me as similar in the way they presented themselves as compared to Terri + Kaine Horman.
I see similarities in the: "I was at werk", "I was asleep, I don't remember", door open, light on, gone from right under someone's nose supposedly, sibling remembers "noises" + probably more I've forgotten, compared with the Haleigh Cummings case.
I can see shades of the Jon Benet Ramsey case too.

Of course these are cases I've followed, so I wonder sometimes if my mind doesn't try to find the similarities even if there's not much there. This baby at Fort Bragg in 2007 found in the attic has a whole list of similarities! It's been eating at me since DB made the comment about following other cases herself. Nothing nefarious, there's just something about the way that was said ... well it just bugs me. MOO of course.

Yes, I'm probably the last human that did not follow the Anthony case. I had much too strong a gut reaction immediately + couldn't follow along or I would've blown at least 2 gaskets! I'm not familiar with the McCann or Eisenberg (sp?) cases, so there's more reading I need to catch up on apparently. :sigh:

The Aisenberg case seems to be the most similar on the face of it; a 5 -month old baby girl disappeared from her crib during the night. She has never been found, parents were suspects without any evidence to charge them. LE wired their home and tried to use some recordings against them, but they were such bad recordings, the judge tossed them out as you really could not tell what they were saying at all. It was kind of a mess, and that was pretty much the end of it.

jjenny
10-20-2011, 11:28 PM
Why would she copy a scenario that failed, and rather quickly too.

In the case that failed there was a good reason for the failure:the body was found in the house. The whole house stunk.

plaidmom
10-20-2011, 11:29 PM
There's been much comparison of various cases amongst the discussions ...

Yes, I'm probably the last human that did not follow the Anthony case. I had much too strong a gut reaction immediately + couldn't follow along or I would've blown at least 2 gaskets!


Pardon, but bolded and snipped by me.

I thought I was the only one! :floorlaugh: Perhaps we need to start a club?

Codger
10-20-2011, 11:36 PM
Pardon, but bolded and snipped by me.

I thought I was the only one! :floorlaugh: Perhaps we need to start a club?
:woohoo: :great: I was sure I was all alone over here!
A club of two :floorlaugh:

Codger
10-20-2011, 11:38 PM
Why would she copy a scenario that failed, and rather quickly too.
My speculation = Maybe she thought she was smarter + could improve upon that scenario? :dunno:

I just found some of the little details a bit eerie + then they started piling up. That's a whole lot of coincidence, to me.

eileenhawkeye
10-21-2011, 01:13 AM
I've noticed a lot of similarities between Lisa's case and JonBenet's case. In both cases, the child was reported missing from their bedroom. The parents claim that an unknown intruder came into the home when the family was sleeping. In both cases, this intruder seemed to be a little too comfortable in the house. JonBenet's body was found in the basement; Lisa is still missing.

The missing cell phones in Lisa's case remind me a lot of the ransom note in the Ramsey case. They are both very hinky pieces of evidence and you can make them fit any theory. They also don't seem to really fit the whole intruder theory in either case. What intruder kidnaps a baby and steals cell phones? What intruder writes a ransom note demanding 118k for the safe return of the child and then murders the child in the basement? It's like the intruders have two different personas.

In both cases, you have bad blood between the parents and LE. LE announced publicly that the parents are not cooperating with the investigation. The parents deny this. The parents got lawyers in both cases. There's been a lot of debate about the cooperation and lawyers in both cases.

You also have some smaller but also worth mentioning similarities. In both cases, a list was given to LE of possible intruders. The parents left the house after the crime occurred, and each house got a nickname---"the omen house" and "the hellhole".

The discussion about JonBenet and Lisa is also similar. In both cases, there seems to be two main theories----the family did it or an intruder did it. Within each main theory, there are many sub-theories that people have. Most people on the FDI side believe that JonBenet or Lisa were accidentally killed, and it was made to look like an intruder was involved. It's been pointed out that the crime scene seems overstaged. The IDI side points out that the families have no history of abuse, that parents wouldn't cover up the accidental death of a child, etc.

I know the Ramsey case is unsolved, but just from some googling I did, I noticed that a lot of people have noticed similarities between the two cases. Some believe the Ramseys are guilty and that the Irwins' story of what happened sounds just as ridiculous as the Ramseys' story. Others believe the Ramseys are innocent, and that LE had tunnel vision and that's why the case is unsolved; they fear the same is happening in the Irwin case.

I think the same scenario happened in both cases----the child was accidentally killed by the mother or the brother(s) and it was covered up. I am interested in seeing how the Irwin case plays out compared to the Ramsey case because of the socioeconomic differences. The Ramseys had money and connections. Just to give an example; the Boulder LE were not allowed access to John's December 1996 cell phone records. This is significant because there's speculation that he could have called someone before calling 911. The cell phone records in Lisa's case are also significant, but there is no way in hell LE won't see them.

I never noticed any similarities between JonBenet and Caylee or Kyron or Haleigh, so it's not like I'm seeing connections in every case. But ever since Lisa's story broke, it reminds me so much of the Ramsey case.

dog.gone.cute
10-21-2011, 01:26 AM
snipped from : http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_missouri/northland/criminal-profiler-compares-baby-lisa-case-to-other-child-abductions

KANSAS CITY, Mo. - Some experts are raising questions about similarities between the Lisa Irwin case and other highly publicized child abduction cases.

It's all over the blogosphere. People are comparing this case to other well-known cases when mothers said their child had been kidnapped. That includes one that happened at Fort Bragg about the time Deborah Bradley, Lisa's mom, reportedly lived there.


:great: I believe that the "experts" are definitely reading here !

The members here at WS have been discussing these "other cases" since the beginning, and I remember when the Ft. Bragg case was brought up here by a WS Member !

:great: Great Job :websleuther:

MOO ...

~n/t~
10-21-2011, 06:18 AM
Pat Brown had some legal trouble over the McCann case...maybe that is why not mentioned by name?

Since that case was never solved, I don't know how it can be compared to any other; for that matter, any unsolved case remains a mystery. It does sound the closest to Sabrina (Lisa's case, I mean) from what we have heard. JMO

The only legal trouble was her book which had to be removed from Amazon but I believe it could be sold elsewhere.

If one believes DB was negligent, I see the similarities.

If one believes the parents were involved, I see the similarties.

If one believes the parents covered up an accident, I see the similarities.

If one believes the parents wouldn't cooperate with LE, I see the similarities.

Madeleine's case remains unsolved but suspicion and questions linger even after 4 1/2 years.

~n/t~
10-21-2011, 06:24 AM
Why would she copy a scenario that failed, and rather quickly too.

I haven't read up on the Fort Bragg case but from the little I did read here in posts, I thought the child was starved and put in the attic?

I don't see that with Lisa. She looks like a happy, well loved baby.

~n/t~
10-21-2011, 06:25 AM
The Aisenberg case seems to be the most similar on the face of it; a 5 -month old baby girl disappeared from her crib during the night. She has never been found, parents were suspects without any evidence to charge them. LE wired their home and tried to use some recordings against them, but they were such bad recordings, the judge tossed them out as you really could not tell what they were saying at all. It was kind of a mess, and that was pretty much the end of it.

They were awarded 1.5 million.

~n/t~
10-21-2011, 06:29 AM
Aisenburg case

In February 2004 an appeals court ordered the government to reimburse the Aisenbergs almost $1.5 million for defense fees.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-baby-steve-marlene-aisenberg-offer-support-lisa/story?id=14737456

Codger
10-21-2011, 08:59 AM
I've noticed a lot of similarities between Lisa's case and JonBenet's case. In both cases, the child was reported missing from their bedroom. The parents claim that an unknown intruder came into the home when the family was sleeping. In both cases, this intruder seemed to be a little too comfortable in the house. JonBenet's body was found in the basement; Lisa is still missing.

The missing cell phones in Lisa's case remind me a lot of the ransom note in the Ramsey case. They are both very hinky pieces of evidence and you can make them fit any theory. They also don't seem to really fit the whole intruder theory in either case. What intruder kidnaps a baby and steals cell phones? What intruder writes a ransom note demanding 118k for the safe return of the child and then murders the child in the basement? It's like the intruders have two different personas.

In both cases, you have bad blood between the parents and LE. LE announced publicly that the parents are not cooperating with the investigation. The parents deny this. The parents got lawyers in both cases. There's been a lot of debate about the cooperation and lawyers in both cases.

You also have some smaller but also worth mentioning similarities. In both cases, a list was given to LE of possible intruders. The parents left the house after the crime occurred, and each house got a nickname---"the omen house" and "the hellhole".

The discussion about JonBenet and Lisa is also similar. In both cases, there seems to be two main theories----the family did it or an intruder did it. Within each main theory, there are many sub-theories that people have. Most people on the FDI side believe that JonBenet or Lisa were accidentally killed, and it was made to look like an intruder was involved. It's been pointed out that the crime scene seems overstaged. The IDI side points out that the families have no history of abuse, that parents wouldn't cover up the accidental death of a child, etc.

I know the Ramsey case is unsolved, but just from some googling I did, I noticed that a lot of people have noticed similarities between the two cases. Some believe the Ramseys are guilty and that the Irwins' story of what happened sounds just as ridiculous as the Ramseys' story. Others believe the Ramseys are innocent, and that LE had tunnel vision and that's why the case is unsolved; they fear the same is happening in the Irwin case.

I think the same scenario happened in both cases----the child was accidentally killed by the mother or the brother(s) and it was covered up. I am interested in seeing how the Irwin case plays out compared to the Ramsey case because of the socioeconomic differences. The Ramseys had money and connections. Just to give an example; the Boulder LE were not allowed access to John's December 1996 cell phone records. This is significant because there's speculation that he could have called someone before calling 911. The cell phone records in Lisa's case are also significant, but there is no way in hell LE won't see them.

I never noticed any similarities between JonBenet and Caylee or Kyron or Haleigh, so it's not like I'm seeing connections in every case. But ever since Lisa's story broke, it reminds me so much of the Ramsey case.

Thanks wasn't enough. Fabulous, well written post! I had these thoughts + am so glad you put them all together, much better than I could've! :clap:

not_my_kids
10-21-2011, 09:04 AM
The story that DB is telling the media is very similar to the Sabrina Aisenberg (sp) case. Put the baby down to bed, and a few hours later she was gone out of her own home. Lots of suspicion on the parents in that case, as well.

I do also see some shades of other cases, but they are too jumbled together to really compare it to another individual case in terms of DB's story of what happened that night. Sadly, I feel that by the end, this will be yet another case of a child killed by their mother, and a staged kidnapping to cover it up, but I can hope I'm wrong.

Quiche
10-21-2011, 09:29 AM
I think it was a weak article about Pat B., but I'll throw my hat in the ring. This case smacks of Haleigh Cummings' disappearance to me. Care giver incapacitated by drugs, put kids to bed, later actually in bed with one while the other vanishes, lights on, door open, father comes home from from work in wee hours and discovers... bah!! And she's still gone-- three years next February. :(

I will state at this point, that it doesn't take a mastermind to get away with this, but it might take a "village" to cover it up. jmo

21merc7
10-21-2011, 09:36 AM
The only legal trouble was her book which had to be removed from Amazon but I believe it could be sold elsewhere.

.

Respectfully snipped

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/profile-of-the-disappearance-of-madeleine-mccann-pat-brown/1104524095

For the topic of this thread, my thoughts are:

This case, this early on, I would think is closet to Baby Sabrina, but we are no where far enough in, and have no info yet. No real leaks yet.

TxLady2
10-21-2011, 10:58 AM
There are going to be similarities in ALL missing child cases... that's inevitable. The important thing to remember is, these similarities do not prove anything. It's just fodder for the "experts" to give their opinions and weigh in so that they can get that extra 30 seconds of air time or press coverage.
I do not trust everything I read or hear on t.v. simply because they're an "expert" and have educated opinions, since those opinions are not always accurate.
I was watching a body language expert on HLN yesterday weighing in on baby Lisa's parents interviews. Much of it was pretty spot on, but a couple things just didn't make sense to me, and I thought, what's the point? It would not hold up in court anyway. So my conclusion is, it's just another way of the media trying to sway the public opinion, thus poisoning a potential jury pool.

not_my_kids
10-21-2011, 11:26 AM
Haleigh...how could I forget? There are circumstances that are similar, and I hate to say it, but I am seeing shades of Misty in some of DB's on-camera behavior.

ThoughtFox
10-21-2011, 11:55 AM
I don't see the McCann case as similar in any way? I didn't read PB's blogs though :blush: I'll wait and see if we have a member that sees it :)

I just mentioned the McCann case yesterday on the search thread because it really is quite similar.

The parents left three-year-old Madeleine and her two younger twin siblings (yes, younger - just toddlers) alone in their suite while they went around the corner and across a courtyard to a tapas bar some distance away. Child care was available but they chose to do the 'checking' system of parents going around from time to time to look in on the kids. That would never fly as a defense in the U.S., but that is not considered "neglect" in Portugal.

At some point that night Madeleine "disappeared." A window screen was ajar - a second-story window.

The parents acted strange, even going running as usual the next day, and they did not help much with the searching. Much later, a cadaver dog hit on their car, which they said had been used to haul garbage to a dump including chicken bones. Later, there was also a hit from a cadaver dog near a couch where the child might have climbed up and fallen out the window, or where the body might have been hidden.

People suspected a cover-up as some of the friends of the family said they had seen odd suspects walking around carrying children (nothing was ever proven) and as sightings rolled in from around the world (all of them mistaken identities).

Very similar situation, except these people in Missouri were drinking boxed wine, not fine wine at a Portugal resort. :twocents: Like the Missouri mother, they wanted "grown-up time", only the people involved were attractive doctors with high-profile friends (J.K. Rowling has apparently helped the family financially).

And somebody is probably going to jail for something here in the U.S., while the McCanns are off living their lives in Scotland.

~n/t~
10-21-2011, 12:13 PM
I just mentioned the McCann case yesterday on the search thread because it really is quite similar.

The parents left three-year-old Madeleine and her two younger twin siblings (yes, younger - just toddlers) alone in their suite while they went around the corner and across a courtyard to a tapas bar some distance away. Child care was available but they chose to do the 'checking' system of parents going around from time to time to look in on the kids. That would never fly as a defense in the U.S., but that is not considered "neglect" in Portugal.

At some point that night Madeleine "disappeared." A window screen was ajar - a second-story window.

The parents acted strange, even going running as usual the next day, and they did not help much with the searching. Much later, a cadaver dog hit on their car, which they said had been used to haul garbage to a dump including chicken bones. Later, there was also a hit from a cadaver dog near a couch where the child might have climbed up and fallen out the window, or where the body might have been hidden.

People suspected a cover-up as some of the friends of the family said they had seen odd suspects walking around carrying children (nothing was ever proven) and as sightings rolled in from around the world (all of them mistaken identities).

Very similar situation, except these people in Missouri were drinking boxed wine, not fine wine at a Portugal resort. :twocents: Like the Missouri mother, they wanted "grown-up time", only the people involved were attractive doctors with high-profile friends (J.K. Rowling has apparently helped the family financially).

And somebody is probably going to jail for something here in the U.S., while the McCanns are off living their lives in Scotland.

Check this out. Sightings of a man carrying a baby but not reported until a week later.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/21/witnesses-report-seeing-man-carry-baby-resembling-missing-10-month-old-lisa/#ixzz1bQtWf8wL


BTW...The McCanns are British.

Pensfan
10-21-2011, 02:37 PM
Don't miss Pat Brown's comments r/t Munchausen's and Deborah on her excellent site:

Pat Brown said...
Both MSP and MSBP are labels given to a woman with a very high narcissistic streak, often psychopathy (which is the highest level of narcissism).

Miscarriages are often a trademark of MSP or MSBP; they are easy to claim and easy to get lots of sympathy for. The worst cases of MSBP involve a female serial killer who uses her own babies as victims; she gets power, control, and attention by getting pregnant, giving birth, and then getting even more attention when the baby "dies of SIDS." Then, she gets a fun funeral event and then goes back to the bed and creates the next victim.

However, with missing children getting so much media attention, having your child "kidnapped" is like winning the lottery for an MSBP woman.

TotallyObsessed
10-21-2011, 04:23 PM
The only legal trouble was her book which had to be removed from Amazon but I believe it could be sold elsewhere.

If one believes DB was negligent, I see the similarities.

If one believes the parents were involved, I see the similarties.

If one believes the parents covered up an accident, I see the similarities.

If one believes the parents wouldn't cooperate with LE, I see the similarities.

Madeleine's case remains unsolved but suspicion and questions linger even after 4 1/2 years.

Sorry for the slight OT: I didn't know that. I actually bought her book off Amazon for my Kindle. Yay me!

TotallyObsessed
10-21-2011, 04:25 PM
Haleigh...how could I forget? There are circumstances that are similar, and I hate to say it, but I am seeing shades of Misty in some of DB's on-camera behavior.

That's the first case I thought of. Haleigh Cummings. Middle of the night...somebody took her.....mother (step) too messed up to help LE with anything....can't remember. Of course, this case is milder in that it was alcohol not drugs....but very similar.

Donjeta
10-22-2011, 07:01 AM
http://www.kansascity.com/2011/10/21/3222111/case-offers-eerie-parallels.html#storylink=omni_popular

Deborah Bradley, mother of Lisa, lived at a residence at Fort Bragg, N.C., a little over a mile away from the home where the other infant, Harmony Jade Creech, “disappeared.”

Bradley, the bloggers contend, must have known about the other case. After all, her husband then was a private in the 82nd Airborne, the same unit as the victim’s father.

“After reading the (Deja Vu) post, it sounds like it was a copy cat…,” opined one man, identifying himself as a relative of the North Carolina victim.

An eerie coincidence, yes, one that Kansas City police say they have not missed.

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/10/21/3222111/case-offers-eerie-parallels.html#storylink=omni_popular#ixzz1bVW2qwm s

eileenhawkeye
10-22-2011, 09:04 AM
In this case, it seems that most people who think Deborah is guilty believe that she murdered Lisa and it was premeditated. I've seen many posts saying that you wouldn't cover up an accident. However, in the Ramsey case, it's a common theory that JonBenet was accidentally killed by someone in the house, and it was covered up. Barely anyone thinks that if a family member killed JonBenet, that they intended to do so, but in Lisa's case, I've seen posts mentioning the death penalty.

If you believe that parents wouldn't cover up an accident, you're IDI (intruder did it) in the Ramsey case. But in Lisa's case, if you believe that, then there's a good chance that you're still FDI and believe that it was premeditated. So that's what I don't understand; what is it about Lisa's case that screams that Deborah planned to murder her daughter? Why is the accident-turned-coverup so widely accepted in the Ramsey case, yet in the Irwin case, it's 'if Deborah is guilty, this was a planned murder'?

Is it because of the Anthony trial that just ended in which Casey most likely planned and carried out Caylee's murder, yet the defense argued it was an accident? That case is more fresh in our minds, so we believe that every parent who kills a child must have done so intentionally? I believe that in the McCann case, it was (and still is) a popular theory that Madeleine was accidentally killed by her parents, and it was covered up. I haven't heard much talk about the McCanns planning their daughter's murder.

So why is it that in Lisa's case, it's believed if the parents did it, it had to be planned because you wouldn't cover up an accident but in the Ramsey and McCann case, many believe it was an accident-turned coverup?

Just K
10-22-2011, 09:32 AM
It doesn't seem that most WS members would go as far as to say that this is a premeditated case of murder. If Lisa died and the family covered it up, with a fake abduction report, it seems most likely that their was some kind of neglect or loss of temper that caused an unintended death. A Poll might be useful.

Donjeta
10-22-2011, 09:40 AM
I find it easier to imagine a parent covering up an accident if reporting it would uncover child abuse, serious negligence or other criminal activity that would get the parent in trouble. If it's a straightforward unhappy coincidence that was nobody's fault - not so likely.

~n/t~
10-22-2011, 09:40 AM
Don't miss Pat Brown's comments r/t Munchausen's and Deborah on her excellent site:

Pat Brown said...
Both MSP and MSBP are labels given to a woman with a very high narcissistic streak, often psychopathy (which is the highest level of narcissism).

Miscarriages are often a trademark of MSP or MSBP; they are easy to claim and easy to get lots of sympathy for. The worst cases of MSBP involve a female serial killer who uses her own babies as victims; she gets power, control, and attention by getting pregnant, giving birth, and then getting even more attention when the baby "dies of SIDS." Then, she gets a fun funeral event and then goes back to the bed and creates the next victim.

However, with missing children getting so much media attention, having your child "kidnapped" is like winning the lottery for an MSBP woman.

I like Pat but there is nothing to suggest the MSP and MSBP theory at this time. We don't have Lisa's medical records nor her older boy's medical records.

Pat may be over analyzing, imo

Cappuccino
10-22-2011, 09:42 AM
:woohoo: :great: I was sure I was all alone over here!
A club of two :floorlaugh:

Make that three, I never followed the Casey Anthony case either.:seeya:

~n/t~
10-22-2011, 09:44 AM
It doesn't seem that most WS members would go as far as to say that this is a premeditated case of murder. If Lisa died and the family covered it up, with a fake abduction report, it seems most likely that their was some kind of neglect or loss of temper that caused an unintended death. A Poll might be useful.

Snap theory makes a lot more sense to me than mom rolling over her. FWIW, I believe that's what happened in McCann and Ramsey cases.

tink92
10-22-2011, 10:01 AM
I just mentioned the McCann case yesterday on the search thread because it really is quite similar.

The parents left three-year-old Madeleine and her two younger twin siblings (yes, younger - just toddlers) alone in their suite while they went around the corner and across a courtyard to a tapas bar some distance away. Child care was available but they chose to do the 'checking' system of parents going around from time to time to look in on the kids. That would never fly as a defense in the U.S., but that is not considered "neglect" in Portugal.

At some point that night Madeleine "disappeared." A window screen was ajar - a second-story window.

The parents acted strange, even going running as usual the next day, and they did not help much with the searching. Much later, a cadaver dog hit on their car, which they said had been used to haul garbage to a dump including chicken bones. Later, there was also a hit from a cadaver dog near a couch where the child might have climbed up and fallen out the window, or where the body might have been hidden.

People suspected a cover-up as some of the friends of the family said they had seen odd suspects walking around carrying children (nothing was ever proven) and as sightings rolled in from around the world (all of them mistaken identities).

Very similar situation, except these people in Missouri were drinking boxed wine, not fine wine at a Portugal resort. :twocents: Like the Missouri mother, they wanted "grown-up time", only the people involved were attractive doctors with high-profile friends (J.K. Rowling has apparently helped the family financially).

And somebody is probably going to jail for something here in the U.S., while the McCanns are off living their lives in Scotland.

<modsnip> They DO NOT live in Scotland??...They DID NOT go running the next day?...Where do you get this <modsnip> from??

Plus they were at a restaurant on the complex they were staying in a sleepy Portugal village. Checking on the kids every 20 mins. This is the SAME childcare that the hotel offered. A listening service. It is common in Europe.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing..the maccanns suffer every day for the rest of their lives for their mistake. <modsnip>

~n/t~
10-22-2011, 10:13 AM
<modsnip> They DO NOT live in Scotland??...They DID NOT go running the next day?...<modsnip>

Plus they were at a restaurant on the complex they were staying in a sleepy Portugal village. Checking on the kids every 20 mins. This is the SAME childcare that the hotel offered. A listening service. It is common in Europe.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing..the maccanns suffer every day for the rest of their lives for their mistake. <modsnip>

They didn't use the child care services offered by the hotel. They decided to take turns checking on the children. I could go on and on,,,,,but I think it would be totally off topic.

The McCann debate seems to be off limits everywhere.

Kimster
10-22-2011, 12:13 PM
The McCann issue is off the table. Please turn to another topic. :tyou:

pinkfly
10-22-2011, 12:57 PM
I find the story about fake abduction while she was (or might have been) at Fort Bragg to be incredibly fascinating. I would think this would be all over msm.

nursebeeme
10-22-2011, 01:49 PM
http://www.kansascity.com/2011/10/21/3222111/case-offers-eerie-parallels.html

not sure if this one has been linked to yet (sorry if it has)

But the time line does not appear to support anything more. Military records show Pvt. Sean Bradley was discharged in April 2007 — several months before the remains of the Creech baby were found in the attic, stuffed in a plastic-wrapped diaper box.

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/10/21/3222111/case-offers-eerie-parallels.html#ixzz1bXEEtEWr

eta: I thought he was currently deployed????? if he is currently discharged he cannot simultaneously be deployed

Pensfan
10-22-2011, 04:23 PM
I like Pat but there is nothing to suggest the MSP and MSBP theory at this time. We don't have Lisa's medical records nor her older boy's medical records.

Pat may be over analyzing, imo
I respectfully disagree. If the reports are true that Deborah was faking multiple miscarriages, this is a symptom of factitious disorder and Munchausen's is a variation of this disorder (Factitious Disorders, DSM-IV-TR #300.16, 300.19). Taking a child to the doctor for fake illnesses is only ONE of many possible symptoms of Munchausen's.
Read below about the symptom called pseudologia fantastica. (A missing child is an extremely fascinating story as evidenced by all of us reading here on Websleuths.)

From the reference below:

"Typically the patient presenting at the emergency room with a factitious illness has a personality disorder with prominent borderline, masochistic, and at times antisocial traits.

One variety of this severe pattern is known as “Munchausen’s syndrome,” named after the famous German baron who traveled from city to city, telling fascinating tales about himself. Patients with Munchausen’s syndrome often display what is known as “pseudologia fantastica,” or a capacity for spinning out elaborate tales, at times intermixed with some actual facts, which listeners often find, sometimes despite themselves, intriguing and fascinating.

A particularly loathsome variation on factitious illness is the use of a “proxy.”

http://www.brown.edu/Courses/BI_278/Other/Clerkship/Didactics/Readings/Factitious%20Illness.pdf

Pensfan
______
verified psychiatric mental health nurse

jjenny
10-22-2011, 04:28 PM
http://www.kansascity.com/2011/10/21/3222111/case-offers-eerie-parallels.html

not sure if this one has been linked to yet (sorry if it has)



eta: I thought he was currently deployed????? if he is currently discharged he cannot simultaneously be deployed

So, is he out of the country or not?

hannahsnana
10-22-2011, 04:37 PM
Did he rejoin after 2007? Or is he employed by a civilian contractor in Iraq?

Leila
10-22-2011, 05:17 PM
http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_missouri/northland/criminal-profiler-compares-baby-lisa-case-to-other-child-abductions

Posted: 10/20/2011
Last Updated: 1 hour and 51 minutes ago


BY: Chris Hernandez



I have seen quite a few of our members giving POV's that this case is similar to others and thought that it might be a good thread for those what wish to discuss this aspect.

Mods, please merge if this needs to be within another thread. I looked but didn't see a mod currently online. Thanks!

This is a MSM article but there are links to PB's blog. Ask a mod if we can discuss details of blog before quoting please.

Also, if this remains a thread, please add your tags to the tags for this thread (if it remains a seperate thread) for the cases you wish to discuss in comparison. :)

Thanks for the link to this article. I think it's indeed interesting that there was a similar case at Fort Bragg during the time that DB was living there with her estranged husband. It could coincidential. But, then again it may not be a coincidence, but a model for what's happened to baby Lisa.

Leila
10-22-2011, 05:23 PM
Did he rejoin after 2007? Or is he employed by a civilian contractor in Iraq?

That's what I was wondering too..............did he re-enlist, or otherwise deployed as part of a civilian company?

KCMommie
10-22-2011, 05:24 PM
Pardon, but bolded and snipped by me.

I thought I was the only one! :floorlaugh: Perhaps we need to start a club?

Add me to the list!! :( The results there may be why this one is so far under my skin. Not to mention - it is close to home. Literally.

Kat
10-22-2011, 05:27 PM
http://www.kansascity.com/2011/10/21/3222111/case-offers-eerie-parallels.html

not sure if this one has been linked to yet (sorry if it has)



eta: I thought he was currently deployed????? if he is currently discharged he cannot simultaneously be deployed

I saw this and then saw a video of his family being reported as saying he was in Iraq.

How did they get their hands on military records? I don't believe they can-- not without someone having to risk their career violating privacy records.

There's no way JMHO. Privacy violation big time. That newspaper needs to recheck their sources and make sure their facts are accurate, then I'll believe this over his family.

JMHO (talking directly to you nursie cuz I know that you know that they did not have their hands on those records lol).

KCMommie
10-22-2011, 05:28 PM
I checked records in case.net here in Mo. It looks as if entries have been stripped because it does not appear to show a filing date on the custody case, just the final. That was 2009. The address given at the time was Independence, Mo. If a custody case was solved in 2 months in Mo; I'll be surprised! I'm betting 2008 it was Independence.

Elley Mae
10-22-2011, 05:31 PM
I could be way off here but, iirc susan smith's husband david was informed or talked to about how LE thought she was involved before we where told she was involved. I am wondering if jeremy was told something to that affect. Sometimes he has an expression on his face that confuses me.

HMSHood
10-22-2011, 05:58 PM
It is interesting to notice that when there is a high profile case especially involving children, it draws comparisons to other cases. For example.

Lisa Irwin-Fort Bragg Case and Madeline McCann.
Elisa Baker-Gertrude Baniszewski.
Terri Horman-Diane Downs.
Casey Anthony-Diane Downs, Susan Smith, OJ Simpson, Joran van der Sloot, Osama bin Laden, and Adolf Hitler.
South Hadley 6-Lori Drew, Charles Manson, Osama bin Laden, and Adolf Hitler.
Lori Drew-Wanda Holloway, Gertrude Baniszewski, Andrea Yates, Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, Osama bin Laden, and Adolf Hitler.
Joran van der Sloot-Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Osama bin Laden, and Adolf Hitler.

Interesting to note that almost every of them have been compared and equated with Osama bin Laden and Adolf Hitler, especially Anthony, Drew, and South Hadley 6. Not that I am in any way trivializing 9/11 or Holocaust.

Leila
10-22-2011, 07:16 PM
I think it was a weak article about Pat B., but I'll throw my hat in the ring. This case smacks of Haleigh Cummings' disappearance to me. Care giver incapacitated by drugs, put kids to bed, later actually in bed with one while the other vanishes, lights on, door open, father comes home from from work in wee hours and discovers... bah!! And she's still gone-- three years next February. :(

I will state at this point, that it doesn't take a mastermind to get away with this, but it might take a "village" to cover it up. jmo

I'm glad you mentioned the Haleigh Cummings case as this does have the exact same scenario as you've detailed. The one element that's different is that in the Cummings case, there were/are a host of likely suspects, whereas in the case of Lisa Irwin's disappearance, all suspicion (including mine) seems to be centered on the mother. A few are suspicious of the father too, but the list of suspects is very narrow in this case.

If this does turn out to be an abduction, I'll be very surprised, as I think most here will also be.

Leila
10-22-2011, 07:31 PM
It doesn't seem that most WS members would go as far as to say that this is a premeditated case of murder. If Lisa died and the family covered it up, with a fake abduction report, it seems most likely that their was some kind of neglect or loss of temper that caused an unintended death. A Poll might be useful.

I, for one, am thinking accidental death..........neglect, or something totally unintended. At this point, I don't see a premeditated murder.

The Caylee Anthony case was totally different - single mother leaves her family home, and never reports her daughter missing. When her mother, the child's grandmother, finally finds her daughter she learns that the child has been missing for 31 days, and she reported the child missing. But it's what the mother, Casey, was doing for 31 days after her daughter was supposedly kidnapped.........partying, dancing in hot body contests, playing house with her boyfriend without a care in the world. This, and the fact that her story of the nanny kidnapping her daughter, is why most concluded that Caylee's death was not an accident.

Mountain_Kat
10-22-2011, 07:58 PM
I've never been particulary impressed by Pat Brown. But, now that I know she's such an avid reader here, I'll make more of an effort not to be quite so vocal in my criticisms of her. ;)

(Hi, Pat.)

cluciano63
10-23-2011, 12:04 AM
The McCann issue is off the table. Please turn to another topic. :tyou:

I am confused...are we never allowed to talk about the McCann case in any way? I wasn't here at WS when it took place, so I don't know what happened on the threads, but is the case itself that taboo? Thanks.

dovebar
10-23-2011, 12:31 AM
Why would she copy a scenario that failed, and rather quickly too.

Yes, I would find it more likely that someone who knew her from that time, and had a vendetta, has been stalking her and looking for an opening. She very visibly was drinking, up late, in full public view. Anyone could see that she would shortly be out of it.

marge_rita
10-23-2011, 12:38 AM
I am confused...are we never allowed to talk about the McCann case in any way? I wasn't here at WS when it took place, so I don't know what happened on the threads, but is the case itself that taboo? Thanks.

BUMPING this up so a mod can answer. I want to know too. :)

bbm

Whisperer
10-26-2011, 09:22 PM
The Aisenbergs got 1.5 million..WTH? The Anthony may have reached that amount also. There must be a lot of money in "Missing Children". With all the Foundations, Trust Funds, Donations, Charity Events...it is more than enough to make us all cynical. If they play the media and get a lot of publicity, there wealth grows...Unfreakenbelievable! One would think that the parents, grandparents would not want any money from anyone for the loss of their child, particularly when somebody in their own family is responsible.

eileenhawkeye
10-26-2011, 10:18 PM
The Aisenbergs got 1.5 million..WTH? The Anthony may have reached that amount also. There must be a lot of money in "Missing Children". With all the Foundations, Trust Funds, Donations, Charity Events...it is more than enough to make us all cynical. If they play the media and get a lot of publicity, there wealth grows...Unfreakenbelievable! One would think that the parents, grandparents would not want any money from anyone for the loss of their child, particularly when somebody in their own family is responsible.

I believe the 1.5 million came from the Aisenbergs winning a lawsuit against the media. It had nothing to do with TV appearances, licensing fees, etc.

redheadedgal
02-26-2012, 01:57 AM
bumping up to read thread tmrrw... please add your thoughts too, sleuths :)


http://www.kshb.com/dpp/news/region_missouri/northland/criminal-profiler-compares-baby-lisa-case-to-other-child-abductions

http://womenincrimeink.blogspot.com/2011/10/baby-lisa-gone-baby-gone.html


**the mccann case cannot be discussed !!! see post above by kimster

norest4thewicked
02-27-2012, 10:30 PM
snipped from : http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_missouri/northland/criminal-profiler-compares-baby-lisa-case-to-other-child-abductions

KANSAS CITY, Mo. - Some experts are raising questions about similarities between the Lisa Irwin case and other highly publicized child abduction cases.

It's all over the blogosphere. People are comparing this case to other well-known cases when mothers said their child had been kidnapped. That includes one that happened at Fort Bragg about the time Deborah Bradley, Lisa's mom, reportedly lived there.


:great: I believe that the "experts" are definitely reading here !

The members here at WS have been discussing these "other cases" since the beginning, and I remember when the Ft. Bragg case was brought up here by a WS Member !

:great: Great Job :websleuther:

MOO ...

I wonder if anyone has checked on whether or not DB's other child had been sick often? While I have recently come to think that Lisa's disappearance was at the hands of both parents, I think that Munchausen by proxy might be a possibility.

redheadedgal
03-15-2012, 01:55 AM
here's an interesting comparison--

bianca (detroit) "abducted" according to her father

1) he pleaded/cried on camera for her to be returned
2) he failed a polygraph
3) a cadaver dog hit on items in a bedroom (and his car)
4) bianca is still missing

hmmm. sound familiar?

he was just arrested today for homicide !!

http://rollingout.com/politics/father-of-missing-2-year-old-receiving-death-threats-after-failed-polygraph/

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159471&page=12

redheadedgal
04-07-2012, 01:44 AM
another interesting comparison--

9 month old lauryn dickens (memphis) vanished in 2010... her body has never been found. her mother was recently found guilty of manslaughter and second degree murder.


Dickens' told police that a white woman in her 40s had come to pick up Lauryn at the father's behest.

The main piece of evidence for the prosecution was a "hit" that police dogs picked up on when searching Dickens' apartment.

Though the dogs caught a scent, they did not find any physical evidence.


http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/dpp/news/local/shakara-dickens-guilty-in-daughter%27s-death-rpt-20120323

BeeBeeOh
04-07-2012, 02:47 AM
Ayla Reynolds

Disappeared while sleeping in bed while 3 adults slept soundly
father says she was kidnapped between 9pm and 9am -never checked on child
after investigation there was no evidence that the child left the house

eileenhawkeye
04-07-2012, 03:05 AM
The Irwins remind me of the Ramseys. In both cases, the main theory is that the mother unintentionally killed her daughter, and the father helped to cover it up. There's a lot more discussion about the brother being involved in JBR's case than Lisa's case though, but maybe that will change as time goes on.

The wine drinking reminds me of the bedwetting in JBR's case. Deborah admitted she drank wine that night, and it's no secret that JonBenet had a bedwetting problem. People who believe IDI in both cases will say that just because you drank or your child wet the bed, doesn't mean you're going to kill them. Others will say that the wine drinking or bed wetting could've been what set Deborah and Patsy off.

If Deborah is guilty, she's lucky that she dumped Lisa's body outside and it hasn't been found because if the police had found Lisa's body in the house (ala JonBenet), they would've been arrested. I think both sets of parents are very lucky but I think there's a lot more shady behind-the-scenes things happening in the Ramsey case that stopped justice from being served.

4Jacy
04-07-2012, 03:41 AM
The Irwins remind me of the Ramseys. In both cases, the main theory is that the mother unintentionally killed her daughter, and the father helped to cover it up. There's a lot more discussion about the brother being involved in JBR's case than Lisa's case though, but maybe that will change as time goes on.

The wine drinking reminds me of the bedwetting in JBR's case. Deborah admitted she drank wine that night, and it's no secret that JonBenet had a bedwetting problem. People who believe IDI in both cases will say that just because you drank or your child wet the bed, doesn't mean you're going to kill them. Others will say that the wine drinking or bed wetting could've been what set Deborah and Patsy off.

If Deborah is guilty, she's lucky that she dumped Lisa's body outside and it hasn't been found because if the police had found Lisa's body in the house (ala JonBenet), they would've been arrested. I think both sets of parents are very lucky but I think there's a lot more shady behind-the-scenes things happening in the Ramsey case that stopped justice from being served.

Yes, and unfortunately I agree with you. I think JonBenet was trolleped up because Patsey was too old to realize her own "dreams". I have always felt so bad for that little girl. The false teeth, hair dyeing, false eye-lashes, make-up, slutty costumes, slutty "dances"....poor little thing! She just wanted to be a little child. I have, since the begining, my own theory about JonBenet's murder, but that is not the topic here.

I hope and pray that BL was not molested. I also hope and pray that she didn't suffer, but after all I've read I'm not too sure about that anymore.

God bless our babies/children.

vlpate
04-07-2012, 04:54 AM
I remember this one ... I'm glad she was found guilty. Send this story to DB!!

another interesting comparison--

9 month old lauryn dickens (memphis) vanished in 2010... her body has never been found. her mother was recently found guilty of manslaughter and second degree murder.


Dickens' told police that a white woman in her 40s had come to pick up Lauryn at the father's behest.

The main piece of evidence for the prosecution was a "hit" that police dogs picked up on when searching Dickens' apartment.

Though the dogs caught a scent, they did not find any physical evidence.


http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/dpp/news/local/shakara-dickens-guilty-in-daughter%27s-death-rpt-20120323

redheadedgal
04-22-2012, 12:17 AM
I am confused...are we never allowed to talk about the McCann case in any way? I wasn't here at WS when it took place, so I don't know what happened on the threads, but is the case itself that taboo? Thanks.



just wanted to post that the mccann forum has been re-established so i would presume we can once again discuss it here too...

i believe the same thing occurred in both cases... accidental overdose, death, cover up.

eileenhawkeye
05-18-2012, 01:08 PM
Does anyone see similarities between Lisa's parents and Isabel's parents?

badhorsie
07-11-2012, 12:01 PM
Right from the start this had echoes of the Mc Cann case. Snatched from her bed, cadaver dog alert, mum having "adult time", much loved and cared for baby. Man seen carrying baby, I am sure there is more but I haven't read here for a while and have forgotten

Cappuccino
07-11-2012, 02:07 PM
Right from the start this had echoes of the Mc Cann case. Snatched from her bed, cadaver dog alert, mum having "adult time", much loved and cared for baby. Man seen carrying baby, I am sure there is more but I haven't read here for a while and have forgotten

The similarities between the McCann case and this one are startling. If they hadn't happened so far apart I would suspect the same person of both.

Unlike most of you I'm on the fence about what happened to Lisa (and Madeliene), but I do have a horrible feeling neither case will ever be solved.

redheadedgal
07-11-2012, 02:39 PM
The similarities between the McCann case and this one are startling. If they hadn't happened so far apart I would suspect the same person of both.


i absolutely agree-- a parent

Cappuccino
07-11-2012, 02:40 PM
That's not what I meant, but it could of course be a parent in both cases. Or not.

Horribly enough, I don't think we'll ever know for sure. Hope I'm wrong about that.

saggymoon
07-15-2012, 07:36 PM
i absolutely agree-- a parent
Statistics show that its family or close friends that are the offenders in most cases involving vanishings of toddlers, total strangers being more or less off the radar

isnt it time the truth drug was legalised

Cappuccino
07-15-2012, 07:47 PM
There is no such thing as a truth drug. Sodium Pentothal only makes people more suggestible and less inhibited, ie, the same effect as alcohol or hypnosis or police officers using the Reid Technique.

There is no foolproof way to distinguish between truth and lies in an individual. You always need supporting evidence.

saggymoon
07-15-2012, 07:56 PM
There is no such thing as a truth drug. Sodium Pentothal only makes people more suggestible and less inhibited, ie, the same effect as alcohol or hypnosis or police officers using the Reid Technique.

There is no foolproof way to distinguish between truth and lies in an individual. You always need supporting evidence.

A foolproof way to distinguish between truth and lies is changing statements and contradictions in statements surely.....also contradictions between ones statements and others statements about the same issue, the mccann case is full of this

Body language also helps

Cappuccino
07-15-2012, 08:08 PM
A foolproof way to distinguish between truth and lies is changing statements and contradictions in statements surely.....also contradictions between ones statements and others statements about the same issue, the mccann case is full of this

Body language also helps

I wish it was, but no. Its very common for parents of missing or murdered children to give contradictory accounts of the most relevant time period. Contradictions between different witnesses are almost universal in every case. You can have five eyewitnesses to the same crime, and all five will give completely different accounts.

Contradictions and body language may give indicators, but they are not foolproof.

RANCH
07-15-2012, 08:11 PM
A foolproof way to distinguish between truth and lies is changing statements and contradictions in statements surely.....also contradictions between ones statements and others statements abiut the same issue, the mccann case is full of this

Foolproof? I'm not sure how reliable someones memory is after drinking a fair amount of alcohol.

If two peoples statements contradict each other, how do you know who is lying and who is telling the truth? I would say by evidence other than their statements that can be used for corroboration.

I know nothing about the Mccann case and what kind of evidence is available in comparison to this case.

I'm not sure if body language is reliable enough to show positively if someone is lying or not because I know little about it. Can it be used in a court of law?

JMO.

4Jacy
07-15-2012, 08:24 PM
Statistics show that its family or close friends that are the offenders in most cases involving vanishings of toddlers, total strangers being more or less off the radar

isnt it time the truth drug was legalised

Thank you so much saggymoon. I have said this for years and years. It is time, because we need to, have to, must protect the innocent children!

RANCH
07-15-2012, 08:28 PM
Thank you so much saggymoon. I have said this for years and years. It is time, because we need to, have to, must protect the innocent children!

Which part do you agree with? The statistics or legalizing the "truth drug"?

I agree with you that we need to protect innocent children.

saggymoon
07-15-2012, 08:38 PM
Foolproof? I'm not sure how reliable someones memory is after drinking a fair amount of alcohol.

If two peoples statements contradict each other, how do you know who is lying and who is telling the truth? I would say by evidence other than their statements that can be used for corroboration.

I know nothing about the Mccann case and what kind of evidence is available in comparison to this case.

I'm not sure if body language is reliable enough to show positively if someone is lying or not because I know little about it. Can it be used in a court of law?

JMO.
one way of knowing is that the person lying consistently contradicts the statements of many others

This is proven in the mccann case

As for body language, no its not a thing for a couet of law, its very interesting though

saggymoon
07-15-2012, 08:40 PM
Thank you so much saggymoon. I have said this for years and years. It is time, because we need to, have to, must protect the innocent children!
You are most welcome

RANCH
07-15-2012, 08:45 PM
one way of knowing is that the person lying consistently contradicts the statements of many others

So your saying that there's some kind of numerical threshold that once it's been crossed, you go from perhaps having a poor memory, to purposely lying? What's the number? Three? Four? I would rather have something more substantial to say whether some one is lying or not. But that's just me.

saggymoon
07-15-2012, 08:54 PM
So your saying that there's some kind of numerical threshold that once it's been crossed, you go from perhaps having a poor memory, to purposely lying? What's the number? Three? Four? I would rather have something more substantial to say whether some one is lying or not. But that's just me.

Ask the police

RANCH
07-15-2012, 09:05 PM
Ask the police

It looks to me from this post that your not willing to discuss this further. That's fine and ok with me. I apologize if I offended you in anyway with my statements and questions about your posts.

Cappuccino
07-15-2012, 09:11 PM
Dogs have a pretty good record, are you another of these diss the dogs people?

Cadaver dogs are not peer reviewed science. Most jurisidictions set their bar for legally admissable scientific evidence at the peer review level.

<modsnip>

Cappuccino
07-15-2012, 09:32 PM
one way of knowing is that the person lying consistently contradicts the statements of many others

This is proven in the mccann case

As for body language, no its not a thing for a couet of law, its very interesting though

It is not proven at all in the McCann case, that's a completely unsupported assertion. There are no more answers in that case than there are in this.

I think people who have jumped to conclusions in both cases, (regardless of what conclusions they have jumped to), are doing so on the basis of emotion and not evidence.

~n/t~
07-16-2012, 04:54 AM
It is not proven at all in the McCann case, that's a completely unsupported assertion. There are no more answers in that case than there are in this.

I think people who have jumped to conclusions in both cases, (regardless of what conclusions they have jumped to), are doing so on the basis of emotion and not evidence.

Cadaver dogs hitting in the apartment and their car (very specific areas) in the McCann case can lead one to conclude that the chances of the hits being false positive would be extremely rare. IIRC, there were two dogs.

In this case, however, there was only one hit and one could assume that it could have been a false positive if there were no other hits anywhere else in the home outside or inside or in the vehicle.

Furthermore, in the McCann case, the parents left their kids unattended and the only eyewitness of seeing a man carrying a child was a friend of the McCann's with very sketchy details of the abductor (I won't go into the numerous sketches drawn up as a result of the eyewitness). In this case, mom and children were in the home asleep.

IMO, there are more similarities with the Sierra Newbold and Isabel Mercedes cases than the McCann case.

~n/t~
07-16-2012, 05:00 AM
Foolproof? I'm not sure how reliable someones memory is after drinking a fair amount of alcohol.

If two peoples statements contradict each other, how do you know who is lying and who is telling the truth? I would say by evidence other than their statements that can be used for corroboration.

I know nothing about the Mccann case and what kind of evidence is available in comparison to this case.

I'm not sure if body language is reliable enough to show positively if someone is lying or not because I know little about it. Can it be used in a court of law?

JMO.

IMO, I've never seen a body language expert give testimony at a trial so I'm going to have to say it's inadmissable and so are polygraphs.

Cadaver dogs, however, are admissable in some cases but they better have other overwhelming evidence to support the dog testimony.

Sadly, they did in that case we won't mention and it still wasn't enough to convict.

KsStormy
07-16-2012, 05:32 PM
Don't miss Pat Brown's comments r/t Munchausen's and Deborah on her excellent site:

Pat Brown said...
Both MSP and MSBP are labels given to a woman with a very high narcissistic streak, often psychopathy (which is the highest level of narcissism).

Miscarriages are often a trademark of MSP or MSBP; they are easy to claim and easy to get lots of sympathy for. The worst cases of MSBP involve a female serial killer who uses her own babies as victims; she gets power, control, and attention by getting pregnant, giving birth, and then getting even more attention when the baby "dies of SIDS." Then, she gets a fun funeral event and then goes back to the bed and creates the next victim.

However, with missing children getting so much media attention, having your child "kidnapped" is like winning the lottery for an MSBP woman.
BBM
This post gave me chills.IMO she is LOVING all the attention, as well as the "power" she is feeling on social media, with all the Facebook pages that allowed open discussion about the case mysteriously getting "shut down". The way she thinks she is above talking to the KCPD and local media, lawyers up in such a "big" way... too bizarre.

I have never followed ANY other case, and the similarities pointed out in this thread comparing Lisa's to other missing/murdered babies are mind blowing. I would imagine that the Fort Bragg incident is what got her so interested in these cases, as she has stated she followed a lot of them.
:moo:

saggymoon
07-19-2012, 10:27 PM
It looks to me from this post that your not willing to discuss this further. That's fine and ok with me. I apologize if I offended you in anyway with my statements and questions about your posts.

you didnt offend me we are just exchanging views

saggymoon
07-19-2012, 10:32 PM
Cadaver dogs are not peer reviewed science. Most jurisidictions set their bar for legally admissable scientific evidence at the peer review level.

<modsnip>
i never said cadaver dog alerts were admissible court evidence, they do make your ears prick though surely especially if they ONLY alert to the last place a missing child was seen doh

Its strange how some people are talking about courts and admissible evidence in these cases we all know truth and court cases can be chalk n cheese, no? Duh

saggymoon
07-19-2012, 10:35 PM
It is not proven at all in the McCann case, that's a completely unsupported assertion. There are no more answers in that case than there are in this.

I think people who have jumped to conclusions in both cases, (regardless of what conclusions they have jumped to), are doing so on the basis of emotion and not evidence.

That is quite an exagerration is it not, emotion? What has emotion to do with conflicting and contradictory statements, not only ones own but between ones own and others and blatant lies and spin doctory.do you think lee rainbow of the british police was emotional when he advised the portugues to look at the parents because their statements were contradictory?

have u not noticed the mccann lies? You have missed out on the circus. Anyway the mother of a missing child who was left alone with her two two yr old siblings for at least half hour stretches out of ear and eyeshot 120m away in a purposely unlocked apartment on every night of a weeks holiday has been made ambassador for the missing peoples charity and is also alledgedly now being put forwardfor a british obe, u couldnt make it up really could you?

Cappuccino
07-20-2012, 06:27 PM
i never said cadaver dog alerts were admissible court evidence, they do make your ears prick though surely especially if they ONLY alert to the last place a missing child was seen doh

Its strange how some people are talking about courts and admissible evidence in these cases we all know truth and court cases can be chalk n cheese, no? Duh

I'm not just talking about legal admissability but also about the standard of science involved. There are some good reasons why the scientific method demands such things as double blind tests and peer review before they accept anything.

The law, quite sensibly, follows the advice of professionals in the field before they decide where to set the benchmark for legal admissability. That's why cadaver dogs, along with luminol and polygraph tests, are seen as merely presumptive tests which need supporting evidence before they can be used in a court.

KsStormy
07-26-2012, 02:09 AM
Does anyone know if Pat Brown has made any recent comments or observations regarding this case?

Whisperer
08-13-2012, 12:43 AM
I respectfully disagree. If the reports are true that Deborah was faking multiple miscarriages, this is a symptom of factitious disorder and Munchausen's is a variation of this disorder (Factitious Disorders, DSM-IV-TR #300.16, 300.19). Taking a child to the doctor for fake illnesses is only ONE of many possible symptoms of Munchausen's.
Read below about the symptom called pseudologia fantastica. (A missing child is an extremely fascinating story as evidenced by all of us reading here on Websleuths.)

From the reference below:

"Typically the patient presenting at the emergency room with a factitious illness has a personality disorder with prominent borderline, masochistic, and at times antisocial traits.

One variety of this severe pattern is known as “Munchausen’s syndrome,” named after the famous German baron who traveled from city to city, telling fascinating tales about himself. Patients with Munchausen’s syndrome often display what is known as “pseudologia fantastica,” or a capacity for spinning out elaborate tales, at times intermixed with some actual facts, which listeners often find, sometimes despite themselves, intriguing and fascinating.

A particularly loathsome variation on factitious illness is the use of a “proxy.”

http://www.brown.edu/Courses/BI_278/Other/Clerkship/Didactics/Readings/Factitious%20Illness.pdf

Pensfan
______
verified psychiatric mental health nurse
Pensfan, the first time I heard PB bring this up, it fit for me. Sometimes, we just get a "gut" reaction and, in this case, I think Pat B. may be right.

It is MO that DB suffers from a Personality disorder (clusterB) and is most likely an alcoholic.

brit1981
08-14-2012, 06:46 AM
Can I just ask about Pat brown. I have heard that she just has a master's degree in criminal justice and read some books, and is not actually affiliated to a university, the FBI, a police force etc, and has never actually been active in helping the police solve a case and that she just speaks on some TV programmes and blogs? Is this true or is she an actual criminlogist with a PhD, and experience of assisting the police? I read that in the US there are no rules about who can call themselves a profiler is this true?

Going back to the converstaion about the dogs. the dog used in the mccann case was not a cadaver dog he was a victim recovery dog, and was trained to alert to all bodily fluids including old blood. Someone had bleed profusly in the flat a few weeks before madeleine disappeared. But the same dog also made false alerts in anothe rhigh profile case in Jersey, and in the UK victim recovery dogs have alerted and the perso turn up alive. Recently they also failed to alert to a body in a home when they initially searche dit. They did alert two days later, but by that time the police were able to smell it too. They did not alert anywhere else in the house apart from where the body was found and it is unlikely the victim died where she was found. A dog handler in the casey anthony case also said in court her dog would alert to bodily fluids including things like nail clippings.

Donjeta
08-14-2012, 08:36 AM
Where is the claim coming from that DB faked multiple miscarriages? I don't remember hearing that. If it involved faking early miscarriages how would anybody know for sure apart from people in the medical field who examined her and can't speak about it if they do?

Not really seeing MSBP here because for one, I got the notion that Lisa was a pretty healthy child, there was nothing reported about tons of hospital visits or strange medical history or harrowing accidents that she just barely survived thanks to the attentive parents. (Again, the doctors couldn't talk about that but I think parents out for attention would.) She just had the cold which was pretty normal and then they reported on the web page months later that she might possibly have an undiagnosed heart condition because someone in the family has one. But it was just an afterthought, and I think a serious MSBP parent would have been pestering doctors about any and all illnesses that might possibly run in the family while the child was there, and not just have a relatively healthy well developed baby with no mysterious unexplained symptoms go missing.

Another thing that doesn't say MSBP to me is the way Lisa disappeared. The Münchausen parent would probably prefer to get attention because they're the only thing that is standing between their poor suffering child and death, so valiantly fighting for their survival, against all odds, sitting on their bedside day and night praying for recovery and saving the child's life finding all kinds of mysterious symptoms that the doctors just overlooked. They want to be the hero, not the villain in the story they weave.

Getting attention because you were the parent who got so drunk you don't even remember if you saw your baby after six o'clock doesn't really fit that storyline.

:cow:

Donjeta
08-14-2012, 09:06 AM
Can I just ask about Pat brown. I have heard that she just has a master's degree in criminal justice and read some books, and is not actually affiliated to a university, the FBI, a police force etc, and has never actually been active in helping the police solve a case and that she just speaks on some TV programmes and blogs? Is this true or is she an actual criminlogist with a PhD, and experience of assisting the police? I read that in the US there are no rules about who can call themselves a profiler is this true?



According to her PR blurb on her own website the Masters in Criminal Justice information is correct. It is mentioned that she offers pro bono profiling assistance to law enforcement, attorneys etc. but there is nothing about how extensive her experience is and no mention of any affiliation with any particular LE agency. Most of the site is about the various media appearances.

The blurb of her book The Profiler: My Life Hunting Serial Killers and Psychopaths on Amazon says she's analyzed "many dozens" of cases. Maybe someone has read that book and can tell if it was as part of the investigative team or as a hobby?

http://www.criminalprofilerpatbrown.com/bio.html
Amazon.com: The Profiler: My Life Hunting Serial Killers and Psychopaths (9781401341268): Pat Brown, Bob Andelman: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51m9Riqi5cL.@@AMEPARAM@@51m9Riqi5cL

redheadedgal
08-14-2012, 11:52 AM
"just" a master's? wow. that's quite the insult:

http://www.sheprofilers.com/pressrelease.html

redheadedgal
08-14-2012, 12:05 PM
and as for assisting LE?

What is the typical workday of a profiler like?

I am sitting at my desk or at a table in an interrogation room of a police department with no windows studying the photos and reading the police reports. Hours go by, days go by... finally, I put together my scenario and detail my conclusions in a report. I am totally intrigued by my work, and inside my head there are many films running of the murder scene, the possible suspect or suspects and the victim or victims.

http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2010/05/24/pat-brown-interview/


word to the wise: don't believe everything you hear... do your own research and find out the truth.

brit1981
08-14-2012, 03:47 PM
sorry red I am from the UK, a master's would mean nothing here when it comes to being considered an expert unless one had years of active experience. In this field a person would need a phd, postdoc work, articles published (I mean journal articles not media articles), university position or some sort of research centre position. We do not use the term profiler, so it would mean someone was a criminologist or criminal psychologist. Someone with a masters in criminal justice and has read a few books would never be considered a criminologist nor qualified to make assesments of mental health (in fact even if someone was an expert and they and not met the person and read their notes they would only talk about a condition in general). Possibly that soemthign to do with our laws on reporting of ongoing cases, as well as the professional rules.

I read the article, it does sound very odd to me, just getting a masters and being considered a criminal expert. But I guess it is a cultural thing. I did not read anywhere in her interview where she had actively worked with the police on a case. She did not name any she had actively worked on, nor anyone she had helped catch. I had read another interview with her on msn, but it was rather unflattering in a veiled sort of way (it was here I read that anyone could call themselves a criminal profiler in the US) so I was wondering if it was correct as it just seems strange to someone from the EU.

Cappuccino
08-14-2012, 03:52 PM
So which cases has Pat Brown worked on then? For LE I mean, not for the Nancy Grace show.

KsStormy
08-14-2012, 04:19 PM
Here is a radio show Pat Brown did on the Casey Anthony case & Lisa Irwin case:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/levipage/2011/10/23/levi-page-show

brit1981
08-14-2012, 04:53 PM
So which cases has Pat Brown worked on then? For LE I mean, not for the Nancy Grace show.

I do not know I cannot see any references to cases she has worked on with LE. I was just confused because it is so different in the Uk. From what I can see it is a bit like someone getting a law degree here, especially a non-qualifying one, and then being considered a lawyer and an expert on law.

Ks,
So did she work with LE on these cases then, did she give testimony in the anthony trial?

Is it also true Brown is no longer going to be on the Nacy Grace show, and that she went on fox but managed to offend people in regards to colorado.

brit1981
08-15-2012, 06:08 AM
Pat Brown said...
Both MSP and MSBP are labels given to a woman with a very high narcissistic streak, often psychopathy (which is the highest level of narcissism).

Miscarriages are often a trademark of MSP or MSBP; they are easy to claim and easy to get lots of sympathy for. The worst cases of MSBP involve a female serial killer who uses her own babies as victims; she gets power, control, and attention by getting pregnant, giving birth, and then getting even more attention when the baby "dies of SIDS." Then, she gets a fun funeral event and then goes back to the bed and creates the next victim.

Sorry just read this, and had to comment. What a load of ill-informed rubbish. Miscarriages are not easy to fake, and she cannot claim that a baby dying of SIDs is a sign of a mental health problem in the mother and imply the mother actually caused the death. Not one bit of independent research has ever demonstrated this.
I fail to see how a criminal justice masters has qualified her to make declarations about personality disorders, psycopathy, miscarriages, SIDs, and mental health.

Donjeta
08-15-2012, 07:02 AM
I don't think she said that a baby dying of SIDS is a sign of a mental health problem. What it means is that some seriously disturbed moms kill their babies and try to pass it off as SIDS. It's been known to happen.

I expect it would be hard to fake a miscarriage that fools medical professionals after a thorough examination but it doesn't have to be like that, one doesn't have to go to the doctor, one can just tell a sob story to friends and relatives. No one is going to demand to inspect the evidence.

Not sure what any of it has to do with Lisa Irwin though.

brit1981
08-15-2012, 07:20 AM
I don't think she said that a baby dying of SIDS is a sign of a mental health problem. What it means is that some seriously disturbed moms kill their babies and try to pass it off as SIDS. It's been known to happen.

I expect it would be hard to fake a miscarriage that fools medical professionals after a thorough examination but it doesn't have to be like that, one doesn't have to go to the doctor, one can just tell a sob story to friends and relatives. No one is going to demand to inspect the evidence.

Not sure what any of it has to do with Lisa Irwin though.

Someone posted it above and I just read it. It is a huge jump she is making, and her claims are incorrect, yet people appear to be basing their opinions on what she says. has she actually actively worked on this case - interviewed the mother looked at her medical notes etc. It is also a huge jump to get a masters in criminal justice and then claim to be able to disgnose mental health and causes of death (unnatural death via SIDs) without ever speaking to a person who reading their notes. Even actual medical rpofessionals require these to make diagnoses.

cityslick
08-15-2012, 07:59 AM
Someone posted it above and I just read it. It is a huge jump she is making, and her claims are incorrect, yet people appear to be basing their opinions on what she says. has she actually actively worked on this case - interviewed the mother looked at her medical notes etc. It is also a huge jump to get a masters in criminal justice and then claim to be able to disgnose mental health and causes of death (unnatural death via SIDs) without ever speaking to a person who reading their notes. Even actual medical rpofessionals require these to make diagnoses.

BBM

Simply put.......no

Donjeta
08-15-2012, 08:09 AM
Someone posted it above and I just read it. It is a huge jump she is making, and her claims are incorrect, yet people appear to be basing their opinions on what she says. has she actually actively worked on this case - interviewed the mother looked at her medical notes etc. It is also a huge jump to get a masters in criminal justice and then claim to be able to disgnose mental health and causes of death (unnatural death via SIDs) without ever speaking to a person who reading their notes. Even actual medical rpofessionals require these to make diagnoses.

I agree with you that it is unwise to make mental health diagnoses without the proper qualifications and contact with the client but I don't think that she claims to be able to diagnose unnatural death via SIDS. In that bit she's talking in general terms about the mothers who are known to have killed their babies, not saying anything about her own personal ability to say that a particular baby didn't really die of SIDS as the mother claimed. She also presents the MSBP option for DB as speculative, not as a certain diagnosis. It's still overreaching and I disagree with her, I just don't see the evidence, but I don't see her making any claims about anybody's cause of death.

~n/t~
08-15-2012, 08:13 AM
Pat Brown said...
Both MSP and MSBP are labels given to a woman with a very high narcissistic streak, often psychopathy (which is the highest level of narcissism).

Miscarriages are often a trademark of MSP or MSBP; they are easy to claim and easy to get lots of sympathy for. The worst cases of MSBP involve a female serial killer who uses her own babies as victims; she gets power, control, and attention by getting pregnant, giving birth, and then getting even more attention when the baby "dies of SIDS." Then, she gets a fun funeral event and then goes back to the bed and creates the next victim.

Sorry just read this, and had to comment. What a load of ill-informed rubbish. Miscarriages are not easy to fake, and she cannot claim that a baby dying of SIDs is a sign of a mental health problem in the mother and imply the mother actually caused the death. Not one bit of independent research has ever demonstrated this.
I fail to see how a criminal justice masters has qualified her to make declarations about personality disorders, psycopathy, miscarriages, SIDs, and mental health.

Do you have a link to that comment? I somehow think it's being taken out of context. I'd like to read it in its entirety. TIA

Cappuccino
08-15-2012, 08:14 AM
BBM

Simply put.......no

Has she worked on any of the cases to which she's comparing Lisa's case?

~n/t~
08-15-2012, 08:14 AM
I agree with you that it is unwise to make mental health diagnoses without the proper qualifications and contact with the client but I don't think that she claims to be able to diagnose unnatural death via SIDS. In that bit she's talking in general terms about the mothers who are known to have killed their babies, not saying anything about her own personal ability to say that a particular baby didn't really die of SIDS as the mother claimed. She also presents the MSBP option for DB as speculative, not as a certain diagnosis. It's still overreaching and I disagree with her, I just don't see the evidence, but I don't see her making any claims about anybody's cause of death.

Thought so. Thanks.

brit1981
08-15-2012, 08:16 AM
I still think she went too far, and the language she uses is not professional (if it really is her, and surely if she is a profesional she would not speak like that). In the Uk at least after the meadows scandal the theory that cot death was really unnatural causes has been thrown out of the window. The fact that cot death went from 300 a year to 300 a yera after the advice on sleeping position changed also helped to discount the theory.
Even making a speculative disgnosis is hugely unprofessional.

~n/t~
08-15-2012, 08:16 AM
Has she worked on any of the cases to which she's comparing Lisa's case?

Oh big time on the Madeline McCann case. She even went to Praia de Luz in Portugal to check for herself and has written a book.

That said, I don't think these 2 cases are at all similar.

brit1981
08-15-2012, 08:17 AM
Do you have a link to that comment? I somehow think it's being taken out of context. I'd like to read it in its entirety. TIA

I just got it from a poster above. whoever wrote it really did not know their stuff. Wondering if it was someone pretending to be her to try and make her look an idiot.

Cappuccino
08-15-2012, 08:21 AM
Oh big time on the Madeline McCann case. She even went to Praia de Luz in Portugal to check for herself and has written a book.

That said, I don't think these 2 cases are at all similar.

When I say worked on, I mean officially employed as a profiler by LE.

brit1981
08-15-2012, 08:24 AM
Oh big time on the Madeline McCann case. She even went to Praia de Luz in Portugal to check for herself and has written a book.

That said, I don't think these 2 cases are at all similar.

As far as I am aware she never worked on the madeleine mccann case professionally. She has never been employed by scotland yard, the PJ etc. Anyone could turn up in PDl, and say they have worked on the case. As she is not employed on the case by anyone involved she does not have access to the full case files, or the information scotland yard have. can anyone correct me on that, was she employed by the PJ, or scotland yard on the case. And I read some of her stuff oni last night and she did not seem to know a lot about it, or about Portuguese or Uk law. And again she started making diagnosis of someone's health without ever having seen them or interviewing them. I did read she went and dug up public land. i really hope that is not true because it is illegal to do that, especially if you think you have evidence you could uncover a crime. You could becharged with interfering with a criminal investigation, witholding evidence etc as well as the actual charge relating to the digging up of public property. Does anyone know if that is true.

Donjeta
08-15-2012, 08:24 AM
I still think she went too far, and the language she uses is not professional (if it really is her, and surely if she is a profesional she would not speak like that). In the Uk at least after the meadows scandal the theory that cot death was really unnatural causes has been thrown out of the window. The fact that cot death went from 300 a year to 300 a yera after the advice on sleeping position changed also helped to discount the theory.
Even making a speculative disgnosis is hugely unprofessional.

I don't think Pat Brown was saying that her theory is that cot death is really unnatural causes, generally. She is talking about a few deranged mothers who use the SIDS explanation to cover up murder. The vast majority of families affected by SIDS are no doubt utterly grief-stricken but there are always dishonest exceptions to the rule.

This blog is where the comment came from (far down in the comment section)
http://womenincrimeink.blogspot.com/2011/10/baby-lisa-gone-baby-gone.html

brit1981
08-15-2012, 08:36 AM
I don't think Pat Brown was saying that her theory is that cot death is really unnatural causes, generally. She is talking about a few deranged mothers who use the SIDS explanation to cover up murder. The vast majority of families affected by SIDS are no doubt utterly grief-stricken but there are always dishonest exceptions to the rule.

This blog is where the comment came from (far down in the comment section)
http://womenincrimeink.blogspot.com/2011/10/baby-lisa-gone-baby-gone.html

She still came across as unprofessional, and not very knowledgable. What did she took read a few cheap books on personality disorders.

~n/t~
08-15-2012, 09:00 AM
When I say worked on, I mean officially employed as a profiler by LE.

Oh sorry. I misunderstood. I'm "friends" with her on facebook and if I have time today after the Drew Peterson trial, I'll ask.

~n/t~
08-15-2012, 09:14 AM
As far as I am aware she never worked on the madeleine mccann case professionally. She has never been employed by scotland yard, the PJ etc. Anyone could turn up in PDl, and say they have worked on the case. As she is not employed on the case by anyone involved she does not have access to the full case files, or the information scotland yard have. can anyone correct me on that, was she employed by the PJ, or scotland yard on the case. And I read some of her stuff oni last night and she did not seem to know a lot about it, or about Portuguese or Uk law. And again she started making diagnosis of someone's health without ever having seen them or interviewing them. I did read she went and dug up public land. i really hope that is not true because it is illegal to do that, especially if you think you have evidence you could uncover a crime. You could becharged with interfering with a criminal investigation, witholding evidence etc as well as the actual charge relating to the digging up of public property. Does anyone know if that is true.

Actually, she did no such thing and as a matter of fact posted a blog about it. Scroll down to : To dig or not to dig.

http://patbrownprofiling.blogspot.ca/

brit1981
08-15-2012, 09:20 AM
Actually, she did no such thing and as a matter of fact posted a blog about it. Scroll down to : To dig or not to dig.

http://patbrownprofiling.blogspot.ca/

Ah Ok, I had read somewhere that she did go looking for a body in a public area, that would have been illegal beyond belief. can you imagine the coversation with the PJ - so you just happened to travel thouands of miles, just happened to decide to spend your holiday digging up areas of public property, and just happened to find a body - there was not any information you should have shared was there??

Edit: I just read an old tweet of hers that says
"PAT BROWN ‏@ProfilerPatB

Why I believe Madeleine McCann is buried, in Monte do Jose Mestre & if I get the funds, I will search it. #McCann"

She is not allowed to just go an search public property (unless it involves just looking and no digging), and once she sets foor it Portugal or the UK she is not allowed to woithold evidence or to interfere with an investigation by making her own searches. All she is legally allowed to do is pass on the information she has to the police.

Donjeta
08-15-2012, 12:03 PM
http://patbrownprofiling.blogspot.com/2012/03/criminal-profiling-topic-of-day-find.html

this post says she was in Portugal with a retired British police officer and did some digging.
Didn't find anything, apparently.

Should this continue in the Madeleine forum since it's nothing to do with Lisa any more?

Sabot
08-15-2012, 01:55 PM
As far as I am aware she never worked on the madeleine mccann case professionally. She has never been employed by scotland yard, the PJ etc. Anyone could turn up in PDl, and say they have worked on the case. As she is not employed on the case by anyone involved she does not have access to the full case files, or the information scotland yard have. can anyone correct me on that, was she employed by the PJ, or scotland yard on the case. And I read some of her stuff oni last night and she did not seem to know a lot about it, or about Portuguese or Uk law. And again she started making diagnosis of someone's health without ever having seen them or interviewing them. I did read she went and dug up public land. i really hope that is not true because it is illegal to do that, especially if you think you have evidence you could uncover a crime. You could becharged with interfering with a criminal investigation, witholding evidence etc as well as the actual charge relating to the digging up of public property. Does anyone know if that is true.

Actually, she and her cohort went digging around on an Ancient Portuguese Burial Site. She seemed quite disappointed when they didn't find anything.

badhorsie
08-15-2012, 02:28 PM
Actually, she and her cohort went digging around on an Ancient Portuguese Burial Site. She seemed quite disappointed when they didn't find anything.

Link please, I have not heard of this. :)

FWIW I have never known a case attract so many nutters as the MM case both "pro" and "anti"

brit1981
08-15-2012, 03:58 PM
I just read the link above and she does say she went to a spot she though had religious significance and got her friend to dig! OMG if they had been caught they would have been arrested, especialy if they then had to tell them it was because they were trying to dig up a body. And if they had found anything they would have destroyed any chance of getting a conviction out of anyone - two people who do not even have access to all the police files just happen to pick the exact spot the body was found in, the defence would have a field day with that one. The guy she was with is not anyone connected to the case just some random she met on the internet. If you have information just give it to the police, do not go digging up burial grounds in foreign countries! Plus what is she talking about pinging of gerry's 'phone, the police found nothing suspicious about his 'phone. The ironic thing is that by writing like she has about the mccanns she has helped to ensure that even if the mccanns were guilty it would probably never go to trial in the EU because of prejudicial material having been made available.

On another off topic note, i see on her bog she has dclared that ABB, the peson ebhind the Norway attacks is a mass murderer not a terrorist. Might be news to Norway as they charged him with terrorism.

Anyway back to brown in general - has she ever actually worked on a case with the LE?
Although this went off topic by talking about the mccann case, I do think if brown has been talking and writing about lisa's disappearence as if she is an expert then it is on topic to question this expertise. I do not know if she is considered an expert by the general public or LE in the US, for all I know the FBI regularly call her in to advise them, but if her opinions are being used as a basis for internet theories then her knowledge and expertise should certainly be questioned. If she was ever to give testimony in court the defence would certainly question it as they do with all expert witnesses.

Donjeta
08-15-2012, 06:04 PM
It's a far cry from expert testimony, it's a random blog comment. Just food for thought, to be dismissed if there is no evidence to support it.

If she works a case professionally I think they probably wouldn't like her to write about it in her blog so I think it's pretty safe to assume that anything she blogs about isn't something she's involved in with the investigative team.

MissJames
08-15-2012, 09:11 PM
Someone posted it above and I just read it. It is a huge jump she is making, and her claims are incorrect, yet people appear to be basing their opinions on what she says. has she actually actively worked on this case - interviewed the mother looked at her medical notes etc. It is also a huge jump to get a masters in criminal justice and then claim to be able to disgnose mental health and causes of death (unnatural death via SIDs) without ever speaking to a person who reading their notes. Even actual medical rpofessionals require these to make diagnoses.

I believe she was falling back on info released in actual cases .She didn't have to work on them to read and study the info gathered by others who were working on the cases in their area of expertise.I believe she often interviews other professionals to gather this info.

When she is asked to express her opinions from what she has learned studying other cases ,that is what she does . She's a profiler .She bases her opinions on what she has learned studying other cases. JMHO

My son's service dog can track .It may not pass peer review,but for our family ,his ability to use his sense of smell to find my autistic son can mean the difference between life and death. I trust the trained dogs .

MissJames
08-15-2012, 09:16 PM
Ah Ok, I had read somewhere that she did go looking for a body in a public area, that would have been illegal beyond belief. can you imagine the coversation with the PJ - so you just happened to travel thouands of miles, just happened to decide to spend your holiday digging up areas of public property, and just happened to find a body - there was not any information you should have shared was there??

Edit: I just read an old tweet of hers that says
"PAT BROWN ‏@ProfilerPatB

Why I believe Madeleine McCann is buried, in Monte do Jose Mestre & if I get the funds, I will search it. #McCann"

She is not allowed to just go an search public property (unless it involves just looking and no digging), and once she sets foor it Portugal or the UK she is not allowed to woithold evidence or to interfere with an investigation by making her own searches. All she is legally allowed to do is pass on the information she has to the police.

Please link to where you found that tweet info. TIA

MissJames
08-15-2012, 09:19 PM
Oh big time on the Madeline McCann case. She even went to Praia de Luz in Portugal to check for herself and has written a book.

That said, I don't think these 2 cases are at all similar.

I know she did research on her own,but did she actually work the case with LE?

KsStormy
08-15-2012, 09:33 PM
http://patbrownprofiling.blogspot.com/2012/03/criminal-profiling-topic-of-day-find.html

this post says she was in Portugal with a retired British police officer and did some digging.
Didn't find anything, apparently.

Should this continue in the Madeleine forum since it's nothing to do with Lisa any more?

I wish people would stick to THIS case on this forum. :banghead:

MissJames
08-15-2012, 09:39 PM
I still think she went too far, and the language she uses is not professional (if it really is her, and surely if she is a profesional she would not speak like that). In the Uk at least after the meadows scandal the theory that cot death was really unnatural causes has been thrown out of the window. The fact that cot death went from 300 a year to 300 a yera after the advice on sleeping position changed also helped to discount the theory.
Even making a speculative disgnosis is hugely unprofessional.
Here is a link to a report on SIDS or Serial Murder? Munchausen by Proxy
http://jimfisher.edinboro.edu/forensics/fire/proxy.html

No one is saying all SIDS deaths are actually murders or unnatural causes ,only that there have been cases that were labeled SIDS but were actually murders to gain attention and sympathy much like faking a miscarriage.
No,you can't fake a miscarriage with medical experts ,but anyone can lie to their family ,friends or co-workers about having a miscarriage.
The point is that they are all similar to parents who have Munchausen by Proxy.They will poison their children and cause them to suffer multiple medical procedures because they enjoy the attention and sympathy they receive as the suffering parent.

MissJames
08-15-2012, 09:42 PM
I wish people would stick to THIS case on this forum. :banghead:

The subject of the thread is : Pat Brown compares Lisa case to other cases.
Kinda hafta discuss the other cases part to argue the point ,right :waitasec:

Cappuccino
08-15-2012, 11:19 PM
Oh sorry. I misunderstood. I'm "friends" with her on facebook and if I have time today after the Drew Peterson trial, I'll ask.

Did you ever get the time to ask her whether or not she has ever been employed as a professional consultant to LE on any of the cases she pontificates about?

She's a talking head, IMO. I'm as qualified as she is to give a criminal profile. :banghead:

hambirg
08-16-2012, 01:18 AM
Y'all are cracking me up!

Pat Brown is a profiler/pundit. What she writes on her blog is her opinion. Take it or leave it. She's not any different than any other "professional" that gives their opinion on tv. I don't agree with every "expert" no matter how qualified they may be.

What I find amusing and ironic is that we are now discussing her credentials because she gave an opinion in a case where we have a "private investigator" who was brought in to "investigate" this case and to help find Lisa, who is not a private investigator and has done nothing to "investigate." :floorlaugh:

Sabot
08-16-2012, 02:34 AM
Link please, I have not heard of this. :)

FWIW I have never known a case attract so many nutters as the MM case both "pro" and "anti"

It's on one of her Blogs, along with the fact that she took a metal detector with her in the hope of finding the metal rings on a Blue Bag in which Madeleine was supposedly buried. The actual existence of such a bag has never been proved.

brit1981
08-16-2012, 06:34 AM
The tweet was on her twitter account, have a look through it.

But if she is not an expert just some random with a criminal justice degree who has read a few book then she is not qualified any more than anyone else to give her opinions. In fact it is dangerous because she is claiming to be an expert so some people will assume that if someone uses the term profiler they actually work as a profiler with LE, and may not realise that anyone including the pizza guy can refer to themselves as a profiler so may take her opinion as that of an actual expert. if you compare her to someone like Dr Boon of the UK, he has a PhD, post doc experience, university position, has conducted research, had several scientific journal articles published in high impact factor journals, and has actually worked with the police on investigations, you can see why she does not appear to be an expert. Can you imagine her doing a joint interview with him, I'd pay good money to see that.

But i really would love to know if she has ever actually been employed as a profiler by any LE agencies. I really cannot see why she thinks she knows better than scotland yard, and the Norwegian authorities (she claims the scotland year review of the mccann case is flawed, not that I believe she is privy to the review, and has declared that ABB is not a terrorist).

brit1981
08-16-2012, 06:39 AM
Y'all are cracking me up!

Pat Brown is a profiler/pundit. What she writes on her blog is her opinion. Take it or leave it. She's not any different than any other "professional" that gives their opinion on tv. I don't agree with every "expert" no matter how qualified they may be.

What I find amusing and ironic is that we are now discussing her credentials because she gave an opinion in a case where we have a "private investigator" who was brought in to "investigate" this case and to help find Lisa, who is not a private investigator and has done nothing to "investigate." :floorlaugh:

I think that is part of the same problem, people with no real expertise watching too many CSIs and wanting to be part of the action so they set themselves up as some sort of expert without actually doing the real leg work needed to get to that sort of position. Imagine if people could do that in other fields such as law, or medicine. there would be an outcry. But for some reason these people are allowed to interfere with criminal investigations. In the UK it is even more dangerous because if these people speak out before the trial, or even during it, claiming to know this that and the other, the defence can argue that it was prejudicial for a fair trial and have the entire trial thrown out! I suspect this is going to be attempted with the Tia Sharpe case to be honest.

MissJames
08-16-2012, 08:21 AM
I think that is part of the same problem, people with no real expertise watching too many CSIs and wanting to be part of the action so they set themselves up as some sort of expert without actually doing the real leg work needed to get to that sort of position. Imagine if people could do that in other fields such as law, or medicine. there would be an outcry. But for some reason these people are allowed to interfere with criminal investigations. In the UK it is even more dangerous because if these people speak out before the trial, or even during it, claiming to know this that and the other, the defence can argue that it was prejudicial for a fair trial and have the entire trial thrown out! I suspect this is going to be attempted with the Tia Sharpe case to be honest.

BBM

To be on TV here you just have to be entertaining or controversial.

To be an expert in a court trial in the United States,you have to have real credentials.

Experts in trial in the US must lay out, under oath ,the credentials that make them an expert in a certain area before they can testify .The Judge decides if their credentials meet the standard ,especially if there is an objection .

In the US anyone that's not under a direct gag order (usually applies to those directly involved in the case) can express their opinion on a case. It's a free country and the right to free speech pretty much trumps all. It's how we roll.Over here we consider the Government's ability to squash free speech more dangerous than someone expressing their opinion about a trial case.
And BTW there are TONS of books written about health and medicine that are JUST OPINIONS.
Just My Opinion.

brit1981
08-16-2012, 08:47 AM
In the Uk we have strong reporting restrictions in order that the trial can go ahead. If the media is satuated with people claiming they not who did it the defence would argue that the material was prejudicial to a fair trial. We have a lot of rights, including those under EHR act so it is just a question of balancing which right wins in each case so in trials the defendents right to a fair trial would win over the right to free speech. It is the same with all our rights, we have a right not to be erronously defamed or harrsesed, and these generaly win over the right to use free speech to harress someone or incorrectly defame them.

Donjeta
08-16-2012, 09:13 AM
On the bright side, I think that most talking heads and self-appointed experts expressing their opinions on the cases on blogs on the internet probably get way more attention on WS than among the general population. So if you've heard about their opinions the chances are that you've followed the case too closely and you would be thrown out of the jury anyway.

brit1981
08-16-2012, 09:21 AM
On the bright side, I think that most talking heads and self-appointed experts expressing their opinions on the cases on blogs on the internet probably get way more attention on WS than among the general population. So if you've heard about their opinions the chances are that you've followed the case too closely and you would be thrown out of the jury anyway.

I suspect you are right. I do wonder hwo they deal with this now, in the Uk there is no jury selection, although people with possible bias are removed, but it is difficult to ensure they have not been following it on the web. We have had people charged for following cases ont eh internet whilst they were jury members.
Off topic, but I suspect the barrister representing the accused in the Tia Sharpe case is going to use the media and internet to argue prejudice to the trial, and make this case focus on media responsibility.

MissJames
08-16-2012, 12:14 PM
In the Uk we have strong reporting restrictions in order that the trial can go ahead. If the media is satuated with people claiming they not who did it the defence would argue that the material was prejudicial to a fair trial. We have a lot of rights, including those under EHR act so it is just a question of balancing which right wins in each case so in trials the defendents right to a fair trial would win over the right to free speech. It is the same with all our rights, we have a right not to be erronously defamed or harrsesed, and these generaly win over the right to use free speech to harress someone or incorrectly defame them.

I guess here it's considered a slippery slope when the government can start deciding which opinions are "dangerous" or "harrassment" . It goes to the heart of our Freedoms and is taken very seriously.
I would like to add that watching live trials is proof enough to me that defendants have far more rights than victims or the State.

Back to the Lisa Irwin case :
The parents haven't even been arrested and have not been forced to speak to LE investigators about their own child's disappearance.That's their RIGHT. It's their own behavior that has created the media interest in the case. If Pat Brown's opinion was so damaging ,why aren't they in jail?
It's because of the Right's and Freedom's our country was founded on . It protects everyone ,even the guilty ,sometime.

brit1981
08-16-2012, 02:20 PM
Well freedom of speech is not the only right in the UK. For instance people have a right to freedom of discrimination so therefore people do not have the right to racially abuse people. Thier freedom of speech is deemed less important. people have the right to a fair trial, that trumps the right of freedom of speech. We cannot use freedom of speech to remove all other rights, otherwise we end end up having no fair trials, the right to discriminate, the right to bully and harress, there is little triumph in holding one right up so high it eradicates all other rights. the government in the UK does not decide what constitutes free speech or harrssement either. It is the judicial system which is seperate from the government (our constitution is unwritten, but seperation of judiciary from government is a fundemental part of it). So a judge has to weigh up which is more important in each situation. Free speech does not automatically get top billing as it is just one of many rights people in the UK have, we do not consider it any more important than all our other rights. can I just ask as I do not know much about rights in America, but is freedom of speech the main right, do other rights come below it?

MissJames
08-16-2012, 06:43 PM
Well freedom of speech is not the only right in the UK. For instance people have a right to freedom of discrimination so therefore people do not have the right to racially abuse people. Thier freedom of speech is deemed less important. people have the right to a fair trial, that trumps the right of freedom of speech. We cannot use freedom of speech to remove all other rights, otherwise we end end up having no fair trials, the right to discriminate, the right to bully and harress, there is little triumph in holding one right up so high it eradicates all other rights. the government in the UK does not decide what constitutes free speech or harrssement either. It is the judicial system which is seperate from the government (our constitution is unwritten, but seperation of judiciary from government is a fundemental part of it). So a judge has to weigh up which is more important in each situation. Free speech does not automatically get top billing as it is just one of many rights people in the UK have, we do not consider it any more important than all our other rights. can I just ask as I do not know much about rights in America, but is freedom of speech the main right, do other rights come below it?

Here you go . It's a quick read because it's so basic

http://www.ushistory.org/documents/amendments.htm

One doesn't supercede the other. A right to a speedy and fair trial is included. That's why potential jurors are brought in and questioned . I think Harassment must have another application in the UK. Someone stating their opinion in the media isn't considered harassment here . If it's slander their's a recourse for that ,also,but the person would have to prove it's slander .

redheadedgal
08-17-2012, 04:42 AM
can discussions of all things UK, freedom of speech and the like be done in other more appropriate forums, please? this one is for lisa irwin. thnx.

brit1981
08-17-2012, 06:32 AM
Here you go . It's a quick read because it's so basic

http://www.ushistory.org/documents/amendments.htm

One doesn't supercede the other. A right to a speedy and fair trial is included. That's why potential jurors are brought in and questioned . I think Harassment must have another application in the UK. Someone stating their opinion in the media isn't considered harassment here . If it's slander their's a recourse for that ,also,but the person would have to prove it's slander .

But what happens if those rights collide.here if people prejudiced a trial it woudl have the trial thrown out so we do not allow people to mess up trials like that. If someone wanted to state their opinion they would have to wait until after a trial. Also here it would actually have to be an opinion, you cannot falsly accuse someone of murder and tag on a "in my opinion" and expect to not get into trouble for it, that would be comical. I suppose when one has so many rights, like the right to privacy, not to be harressed ( spreading lies about someone would be a form of harrssemnt), the right to be free from discrimination, it is difficult - someone cannot exercise their right to be free from discrimination at the same time as someone else exercising their supposed right to call them every racist or sexist name under the sun.

Anyway this is very off topic. back to Pat brown as this thread is about her, has she actually worked on any cases with LE. Someone claimed she had worked on the mccann case, but as far as I am aware she has not once been employed on the case. What cases has she actually worked on with LE?

Donjeta
08-17-2012, 08:20 AM
What does it matter? Even if she was the Queen of Profilers her random blog comments would still be just random blog comments.

However impressive someone's credentials might be, I'd still not be inclined to take their word about MSBP if they present no actual evidence to support their opinion.

MissJames
08-17-2012, 01:53 PM
But what happens if those rights collide.here if people prejudiced a trial it woudl have the trial thrown out so we do not allow people to mess up trials like that. If someone wanted to state their opinion they would have to wait until after a trial. Also here it would actually have to be an opinion, you cannot falsly accuse someone of murder and tag on a "in my opinion" and expect to not get into trouble for it, that would be comical. I suppose when one has so many rights, like the right to privacy, not to be harressed ( spreading lies about someone would be a form of harrssemnt), the right to be free from discrimination, it is difficult - someone cannot exercise their right to be free from discrimination at the same time as someone else exercising their supposed right to call them every racist or sexist name under the sun.

Anyway this is very off topic. back to Pat brown as this thread is about her, has she actually worked on any cases with LE. Someone claimed she had worked on the mccann case, but as far as I am aware she has not once been employed on the case. What cases has she actually worked on with LE?

Rendering an opinion isn't telling a lie about someone. That would be slander and there are remedies in court for that. By questioning potential jurors about what they've heard and what they believe ,the defendant maintains a fair trial. Sometimes trials are moved to another jurisdiction. The US goes to great lengths to maintain everyone's rights .
Pat Brown is on tv because people want to hear what she has to say. It's up to each individual to believe her or not. We aren't lemmings ,we have the right to speak and to listen ,and make up our own minds.Even on Websleuths you will read many different opinions about facts,and what they mean.
Obviously you don't believe Pat Brown or take her seriously so that just proves the point. It's her opinion and everyone can take it or leave it. Just because something is said on tv ,it doesn't mean everyone takes it as absolute truth. And this is all JMO :cheers:

norest4thewicked
08-18-2012, 12:10 AM
can discussions of all things UK, freedom of speech and the like be done in other more appropriate forums, please? this one is for lisa irwin. thnx.

Thank you!:banghead:

Cappuccino
08-18-2012, 01:51 AM
Well, the thread is about Pat Brown's comparison to other cases. If her opinion is not valued any more or less than anyone else's, why does she have a thread about her opinions? Presumably because whoever started this thread thinks she is an expert.

So is it wrong that we would like to examine her credentials, and her professional experience? I think its fair play to examine them. Moo.

redheadedgal
08-18-2012, 02:38 AM
this thread is clearly for those who believe pat brown has the necessary credentials to investigate and comment on this case... i think if ppl want to discuss her not being credible, another thread ought to be started in a more appropriate forum. again, this is the lisa irwin forum. thx.

MissJames
08-18-2012, 10:35 AM
this thread is clearly for those who believe pat brown has the necessary credentials to investigate and comment on this case... i think if ppl want to discuss her not being credible, another thread ought to be started in a more appropriate forum. again, this is the lisa irwin forum. thx.

I guess we have a difference of opinion about what is appropriate conversation for a thread . No worries,though . I'll wait until there is something new to discuss about Lisa's case. :waiting:

brit1981
08-18-2012, 01:18 PM
I do not think this thread is clearly for people who consider Brown an expert. It is about Brown comparing this case to others. Therefore her credibiltiy etc are a part of that discussion, otherwise what is the point of the thread as we cannot discuss it if we cannot question her credibility? If we had a thread entitled joe bloggs compares this case to tohers then I am sure peopel woudl want to question who Bloggs was, doe she actually know what he is talking about, or is he just a loudmouth.

Donjeta
08-18-2012, 01:38 PM
JMO, I think Joe Bloggs's personal history is less important than the weight of his arguments. If he presents a rational theory that is in line with the available evidence it may be worth considering regardless of who he is. If he just throws out random acronyms that don't have anything to do with the known facts it doesn't become a rational argument just because we find out that he is a university professor.

But I know a couple of nutty PhDs so my view may be biased.

eileenhawkeye
08-18-2012, 01:43 PM
I don't care about Pat Brown's opinion, and I haven't read the first post of this thread since it was started. I just used this thread to post any thoughts that come into my head regarding other cases, and how they compare to this one.

brit1981
08-18-2012, 03:27 PM
JMO, I think Joe Bloggs's personal history is less important than the weight of his arguments. If he presents a rational theory that is in line with the available evidence it may be worth considering regardless of who he is. If he just throws out random acronyms that don't have anything to do with the known facts it doesn't become a rational argument just because we find out that he is a university professor.

But I know a couple of nutty PhDs so my view may be biased.

But if his arguements mainly consist of "in my experience" "in my view as a profiler/expert/criminlogist" "comparing this to other cases I have worked on" etc then it is important to actually look to see if this person actually has any worthwhile experience or credentials that warrant giving them more weight than the opinions of any other random person. If someoen said they were a hairdresser but had these opinions, we woudl not find people quoting them to give weight to thier arguements, but when peopel claim to be a profiler with experience people do use their arguements to give weight to their own claims.

From what I have read from pat Brown, it dos not look as if she does give theories in line with evidence. For example ABB is charged with terrorism in norway, Pat Brown states he is not a terrorist, she had made various claims about the mccann case which were not true (and I mean she has stated things as fact when they were not i.e about calpol as a sedative etc), she also states rape requires the use of force- now I do not really know about US law, but in the UK it does not involve force it involves non-consensual sex, physical force is just an aggrevating factor. I would be shocked if in the US non-consensual sex is legal so long as physical force is not used (how the hell can someone who is sleeping, or otherwise unconcious defend themselves).

Donjeta
08-18-2012, 04:12 PM
Just saying that if someone's theory obviously doesn't line up with evidence we don't need to know if he's a famous scientist, we can dismiss the theory because it doesn't line up with evidence.

redheadedgal
08-26-2012, 05:15 PM
Cadaver dogs, however, are admissable in some cases but they better have other overwhelming evidence to support the dog testimony.

Detroit — A canine expert whose dog allegedly detected a cadaver scent in the home of a missing toddler will be allowed to testify at the murder trial of the girl's father, a judge ruled Friday.

...

Also Friday, Rex A. Stockham, a special agent for the FBI who oversees its forensic canine program, said the agency has been studying the science for about a decade.

The FBI began testing contract and volunteer teams for the human scent detection program in 2008, Stockham said. The agency has three full-time dogs working in the country.

The dogs are tested annually to ensure they meet best practices standards.

...

Grime testified in court Friday that Morse has never had a false positive response*, and that testing done just prior and after the dog worked in the Jones case was successful.



http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120824/METRO01/208240420#ixzz24a3uvyi9


*demonstrates the reliability and accuracy of FBI trained dogs

KsStormy
08-27-2012, 12:24 AM
Detroit — A canine expert whose dog allegedly detected a cadaver scent in the home of a missing toddler will be allowed to testify at the murder trial of the girl's father, a judge ruled Friday.

...

Also Friday, Rex A. Stockham, a special agent for the FBI who oversees its forensic canine program, said the agency has been studying the science for about a decade.

The FBI began testing contract and volunteer teams for the human scent detection program in 2008, Stockham said. The agency has three full-time dogs working in the country.

The dogs are tested annually to ensure they meet best practices standards.

...

Grime testified in court Friday that Morse has never had a false positive response*, and that testing done just prior and after the dog worked in the Jones case was successful.



http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120824/METRO01/208240420#ixzz24a3uvyi9


*demonstrates the reliability and accuracy of FBI trained dogs

Thanks Redheaded gal! Going to repost this in the dog thread!

redheadedgal
09-18-2012, 02:34 PM
another comparison:

local case from 1990... father killed baby in drunken rage... threw baby into detroit river... said baby was kidnapped*... the baby was found by a fisherman a few days later... the father was arrested and eventually confessed...

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/09/18/raymond-laroche-convicted-in-1990-of-killing-his-baby-dies/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2001/02/16/laroche_hearing010216.html


*the story of the baby being "kidnapped" seems to be a very common theme in cases where a parent ultimately is the one responsible for the disappearance of the baby...


i wonder what evidence police had that tied ray to the murder before he confessed... ?

RANCH
09-18-2012, 03:01 PM
another comparison:

local case from 1990... father killed baby in drunken rage... threw baby into detroit river... said baby was kidnapped*... the baby was found by a fisherman a few days later... the father was arrested and eventually confessed...

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/09/18/raymond-laroche-convicted-in-1990-of-killing-his-baby-dies/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2001/02/16/laroche_hearing010216.html


*the story of the baby being "kidnapped" seems to be a very common theme in cases where a parent ultimately is the one responsible for the disappearance of the baby...


i wonder what evidence police had that tied ray to the murder before he confessed... ?

BBM
I would imagine that police had some pretty convincing evidence to get an arrest and confession in such a short period of time.
Two days later, the baby was found floating in the Detroit River. An autopsy showed he had been brutally beaten before drowning.

Ten days later, Laroche was arrested and confessed to killing the baby.
Quite unlike this case I would say, which has no body, no arrest, and no confession.
JMO.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2001/02/16/laroche_hearing010216.html

brit1981
09-24-2012, 11:25 AM
another comparison:

local case from 1990... father killed baby in drunken rage... threw baby into detroit river... said baby was kidnapped*... the baby was found by a fisherman a few days later... the father was arrested and eventually confessed...

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/09/18/raymond-laroche-convicted-in-1990-of-killing-his-baby-dies/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2001/02/16/laroche_hearing010216.html


*the story of the baby being "kidnapped" seems to be a very common theme in cases where a parent ultimately is the one responsible for the disappearance of the baby...


i wonder what evidence police had that tied ray to the murder before he confessed... ?

But the baby was found, Lisa has not been found. If we are going to arrest people for claiming their child has been abducted, then Jaycee lee Dugaards step father would have been in prison for nearly two decades for telling the truth - how many people believed he was lying? people do kidnap children that is a hideous fact.

redheadedgal
09-24-2012, 03:11 PM
But the baby was found, Lisa has not been found. If we are going to arrest people for claiming their child has been abducted, then Jaycee lee Dugaards step father would have been in prison for nearly two decades for telling the truth - how many people believed he was lying? people do kidnap children that is a hideous fact.


1) the fact lisa has not been found does not nullify my comparison...

2) acquaint yourself with the stats re: who kidnaps a baby, whether or not kidnapped babies are usually located quickly and returned home, and *who is most likely responsible when a child goes "missing". they're all over this forum.


as for carl probyn:

1) he submitted to all interviews and questioning asked of him by LE... have DB and JI?
2) he passed not one but TWO lie-detector tests... did DB?
3) he and the rest of the family were 99.9% cleared by LE... were DB and JI?

Knowing that the vast majority of kidnappings involve family members*—only four of California's 240 reported kidnappings last year are confirmed stranger abductions—local authorities, together with the FBI, questioned all relatives. But it was Carl who was subjected to the closest scrutiny. "Did you ever wish Jaycee wasn't here?" police asked him during two lie-detector tests—which he passed—and while he was under hypnosis. "It made me nervous," he says. "I had to say, 'Sure, there were times I'd wished Jaycee wasn't in our life.' I think every parent has wished that." Ultimately the police decided that Carl's occasional ambivalence about his stepdaughter was as innocent as he said it was. "We're 99.9 percent sure this is not a family abduction," says Eldorado County Sgt. Jim Watson.

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20111362,00.html

brit1981
09-25-2012, 08:55 AM
But the police have also not said Lisa's parents are guilty. It is people on the internet and TV not privy to all the details who are implying left right and centre if not outright accusing the parents, just as those same people accused jaycee's stepfather even though the police did not.

iamnotagolem
09-25-2012, 08:28 PM
But the police have also not said Lisa's parents are guilty. It is people on the internet and TV not privy to all the details who are implying left right and centre if not outright accusing the parents, just as those same people accused jaycee's stepfather even though the police did not.

In looking at statistics of most likely, stranger abductions are not the most likely. But you also have to consider the age of the victim, it's very unlikely that Lisa was kidnapped for sexual purposes.

Sabot
09-26-2012, 05:28 AM
In looking at statistics of most likely, stranger abductions are not the most likely. But you also have to consider the age of the victim, it's very unlikely that Lisa was kidnapped for sexual purposes.

All the more reason to think that Lisa was stolen for adoption. This does happen, no matter how many people want to believe otherwise.

brit1981
09-26-2012, 06:39 AM
All the more reason to think that Lisa was stolen for adoption. This does happen, no matter how many people want to believe otherwise.

That is the one ray of hope with young children, desperate people do kidnap babies and bring them up as their own this has happened before. It is rare but disappearences like this are also rare.
Statistically if parents are involved the child is normally found fairly soon I believe.

Melon
09-26-2012, 11:36 AM
1) the fact lisa has not been found does not nullify my comparison...

2) acquaint yourself with the stats re: who kidnaps a baby, whether or not kidnapped babies are usually located quickly and returned home, and *who is most likely responsible when a child goes "missing". they're all over this forum.


as for carl probyn:

1) he submitted to all interviews and questioning asked of him by LE... have DB and JI?
2) he passed not one but TWO lie-detector tests... did DB?
3) he and the rest of the family were 99.9% cleared by LE... were DB and JI?

Knowing that the vast majority of kidnappings involve family members*—only four of California's 240 reported kidnappings last year are confirmed stranger abductions—local authorities, together with the FBI, questioned all relatives. But it was Carl who was subjected to the closest scrutiny. "Did you ever wish Jaycee wasn't here?" police asked him during two lie-detector tests—which he passed—and while he was under hypnosis. "It made me nervous," he says. "I had to say, 'Sure, there were times I'd wished Jaycee wasn't in our life.' I think every parent has wished that." Ultimately the police decided that Carl's occasional ambivalence about his stepdaughter was as innocent as he said it was. "We're 99.9 percent sure this is not a family abduction," says Eldorado County Sgt. Jim Watson.

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20111362,00.html

I think your post is a good example of what an innocent person (or family) does to exonerate themselves, even if it's extremely uncomfortable. On one hand you have a family that went above and beyond to do what was best for Jaycee. Who commissioned the hypnosis? Subjecting yourself to that really speaks to me. That's a willingness to lay yourself bare, a confidence in your own innocence.

On the other hand we have a family that lawyered up, clammed up, put their own comfort over and above their "kidnapped" daughter's fate, inexplicably stonewall the investigation (claiming kidnapper but withholding sibling DNA to help the investigation being a big one in my book) and conducting bizarre antics on television and the internet. You start stacking up all of the behavior of BL's family and the pile is teetering in an unfavorable light. It's the totality of the entire situation (ETA: which also adds the dog hit and SW to the behavior component), even though we see it from afar, even though LE has kept mum, that leads lots of us to our conclusions of parental involvement.

RANCH
09-26-2012, 12:44 PM
Here's a case where an innocent father spent 18 months in prison for the murder of his adoptive daughter Jaclyn. David Dowaliby was freed when his conviction was overturned by the Illinois appellate court because of insufficient evidence. I think that this statement by David Protess who authored a book about the Jaclyn Dowaliby case is something that should be considered.
But when the primary focus is on the parents, tunnel vision can take hold and the trail for other suspects can grow cold. Putting the parents under a cloud of suspicion will also prompt lawyers to insulate even innocent clients, depriving the authorities of information that might prove useful in their investigation
I think that this may have happened in this case, and led to some of the behavior by Lisa's parents that so many abhor. Points can be made on both sides of the argument on whether following their lawyers advice is the right thing to do or not.

While comparing these different cases is interesting, it doesn't help me to know the truth of what happened to Lisa.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-protess/when-a-child-vanishes-in-_b_1066207.html

redheadedgal
09-26-2012, 03:46 PM
Statistically if parents are involved the child is normally found fairly soon I believe.

found alive or deceased? your point is not clear. can you provide a link with that stat to explain-- thanks.

RANCH
09-26-2012, 06:25 PM
found alive or deceased? your point is not clear. can you provide a link with that stat to explain-- thanks.
Since Lisa hasn't been found dead or alive any statistic that shows recovery of a missing child whether alive or dead would be relevant to this case.

My question is this. Are statistics enough to tell us that Lisa's parents are complicit in the disappearance of their daughter? It's not enough for me but I'm interested in other members thoughts on this.

I think that statistics can be a good tool for LE to help guide them in their initial investigation. Afterwards I think that actual evidence should guide them or they may fall victim to tunnel vision and loose track of the ultimate goal.

For myself the goal is to find the missing child and bring to justice whomever is responsible for their disappearance. JMO.

Whisperer
09-27-2012, 12:51 AM
""Suspicion almost always falls heavily on the parents, especially when it's young kids," Finkelhor said. "Fifteen hundred parents kill their kids every year, and that's heavily focused on the under 1 year of age category."

Allen said his organization has handled 278 infant abduction cases during his nearly three decades with the group. Only 13 cases involved a stranger coming into a home and taking a baby, and all but one of those children were recovered unharmed."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/09/lisa-irwin-missing-statistics-stranger_n_1002196.html

2% involved a stranger and all but one were returned That means 95% of the time, it as not the result of a stranger. and 99.8% the child is returned. Pretty convincing odds. Logic dictates to go with the odds. There is no evidence of a stranger taking Lisa except for the parents saying so...

One has to be a very optimistic to the point of wishful thinking to think Lisa was abducted by a stranger.

RANCH
09-27-2012, 01:28 AM
""Suspicion almost always falls heavily on the parents, especially when it's young kids," Finkelhor said. "Fifteen hundred parents kill their kids every year, and that's heavily focused on the under 1 year of age category."

Allen said his organization has handled 278 infant abduction cases during his nearly three decades with the group. Only 13 cases involved a stranger coming into a home and taking a baby, and all but one of those children were recovered unharmed."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/09/lisa-irwin-missing-statistics-stranger_n_1002196.html

2% involved a stranger and all but one were returned That means 95% of the time, it as not the result of a stranger. and 99.8% the child is returned. Pretty convincing odds. Logic dictates to go with the odds. There is no evidence of a stranger taking Lisa except for the parents saying so...

One has to be a very optimistic to the point of wishful thinking to think Lisa was abducted by a stranger.

BBM in Red

If it means that Lisa is still alive, then yes, I'm wishful and optimistic about her situation.

Whisperer
09-27-2012, 02:49 AM
Since Lisa hasn't been found dead or alive any statistic that shows recovery of a missing child whether alive or dead would be relevant to this case.

My question is this. Are statistics enough to tell us that Lisa's parents are complicit in the disappearance of their daughter? It's not enough for me but I'm interested in other members thoughts on this.

I think that statistics can be a good tool for LE to help guide them in their initial investigation. Afterwards I think that actual evidence should guide them or they may fall victim to tunnel vision and loose track of the ultimate goal.

For myself the goal is to find the missing child and bring to justice whomever is responsible for their disappearance. JMO.

Yes, statistics are enough. When you have 98% of the cases concerning under age 1, not abducted, but killed by a family member and the other 2% (that were abducted), returned unharmed (one not returned), statistics are da*ning. Logic speaks to LE and tells them it is most likely that the parent/s harmed the child.

I personally know of one case where a three month old was abducted and sexually raped. The child was left for dead but survived (27 surgeries needed). The perp was a psychopathic sexual pedophile sadist. Now how many of those still roaming around? If one chooses to believe Lisa was abducted than this may be what the perp looks like. I doubt it. It is much more feasible to think the parents are the cause.

In the case I cited, it was easy picking up the perp. Psychos like this are easy to spot...as he blood all over his pants...and was strolling down the street. He had raped two children under the age of two before this one.

Personally, I think LE knows exactly what happened to Lisa and it was no deranged pedophile that took her. It is for certain they have checked every strange pedophile in the area. There was no evidence at the house...but there was evidence that the baby perhaps died inside the home. When you combine that with the stats, It is 99.9% probable the perp lives inside the house on Lister.

RANCH
09-27-2012, 03:01 AM
Yes, statistics are enough. When you have 98% of the cases concerning under age 1, not abducted, but killed by a family member and the other 2% (that were abducted), returned unharmed (one not returned), statistics are da*ning. Logic speaks to LE and tells them it is most likely that the parent/s harmed the child.

I personally know of one case where a three month old was abducted and sexually raped. The child was left for dead but survived (27 surgeries needed). The perp was a psychopathic sexual pedophile sadist. Now how many of those still roaming around? If one chooses to believe Lisa was abducted than this may be what the perp looks like. I doubt it. It is much more feasible to think the parents are the cause.

In the case I cited, it was easy picking up the perp. Psychos like this are easy to spot...as he blood all over his pants...and was strolling down the street. He had raped two children under the age of two before this one.

Personally, I think LE knows exactly what happened to Lisa and it was no deranged pedophile that took her. It is for certain they have checked every strange pedophile in the area. There was no evidence at the house...but there was evidence that the baby perhaps died inside the home. When you combine that with the stats, It is 99.9% probable the perp lives inside the house on Lister.
BBM

So we have an unverified "FBI dog" hit and some statistics saying that Lisa's parents "may" be responsible for her disappearance.

That's not enough for me to say that they are guilty of anything. JMO.

Sabot
09-27-2012, 03:40 AM
Since Lisa hasn't been found dead or alive any statistic that shows recovery of a missing child whether alive or dead would be relevant to this case.

My question is this. Are statistics enough to tell us that Lisa's parents are complicit in the disappearance of their daughter? It's not enough for me but I'm interested in other members thoughts on this.

I think that statistics can be a good tool for LE to help guide them in their initial investigation. Afterwards I think that actual evidence should guide them or they may fall victim to tunnel vision and loose track of the ultimate goal.

For myself the goal is to find the missing child and bring to justice whomever is responsible for their disappearance. JMO.

Statistics are not relevant, and never will be. Each case is different in some way, so only evidence matters.
If one child in 100 is proven to have been abducted by a stranger then it could happens to two children, or three. In the absence of a body or any other evidence then no one knows.
And No, I don't place any importance on dog alerts alone. Dogs do alert to decomposing body fluids from live people. This was stated in Court by The Dog Handler in The Anthony Case.

hambirg
09-27-2012, 04:00 AM
Statistics are not relevant, and never will be. Each case is different in some way, so only evidence matters.
If one child in 100 is proven to have been abducted by a stranger then it could happens to two children, or three. In the absence of a body or any other evidence then no one knows.
And No, I don't place any importance on dog alerts alone. Dogs do alert to decomposing body fluids from live people. This was stated in Court by The Dog Handler in The Anthony Case.

BBM

Great. . .so where's the evidence that proves Lisa was taken by a stranger?

nursebeeme
09-27-2012, 02:30 PM
am I in the Pat Brown thread? I thought I was but the conversation is not about Pat Brown....

Please get back on topic here and leave the snark at the door.

redheadedgal
10-12-2012, 03:54 PM
... Someone with a masters in criminal justice and has read a few books would never be considered a criminologist nor qualified to make assesments of mental health (in fact even if someone was an expert and they and not met the person and read their notes they would only talk about a condition in general)... I read the article, it does sound very odd to me, just getting a masters and being considered a criminal expert. But I guess it is a cultural thing. I did not read anywhere in her interview where she had actively worked with the police on a case.

Did you ever get the time to ask her whether or not she has ever been employed as a professional consultant to LE on any of the cases she pontificates about?

She's a talking head, IMO. I'm as qualified as she is to give a criminal profile. :banghead:

But if she is not an expert just some random with a criminal justice degree who has read a few book then she is not qualified any more than anyone else to give her opinions...


WOODROW TRIPP, FMR. POLICE COMMANDER: Nancy, that's very significant. And I totally agree with Pat. And certainly, she's the expert on profiling. But you also have a person here that needed to dismember the body in order to get it into a bag, certainly for easier transport.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1210/11/ng.01.html


so-- there it is. right from the horse's mouth: LE in the US holds ms brown in great esteem. <modsnip>

Whisperer
10-12-2012, 07:46 PM
Since Lisa hasn't been found dead or alive any statistic that shows recovery of a missing child whether alive or dead would be relevant to this case.

My question is this. Are statistics enough to tell us that Lisa's parents are complicit in the disappearance of their daughter? It's not enough for me but I'm interested in other members thoughts on this.

I think that statistics can be a good tool for LE to help guide them in their initial investigation. Afterwards I think that actual evidence should guide them or they may fall victim to tunnel vision and loose track of the ultimate goal.

For myself the goal is to find the missing child and bring to justice whomever is responsible for their disappearance. JMO.

Yes, Statistics are compiled for babies under the age of ONE YEAR. It has been posted numerous times. Out of 238, over 98% of the time, the parent is involved. 13 were stranger and 12 of them were found/returned. One was not found.

If one cares to continue to go for the under 1% and put Lisa in that category, there will be no facts that will convince you otherwise. At this point, it becomes more along the lines of wishful thinking, than leaning towards the logic of statistics and the outcome of these type cases.

Whisperer
10-12-2012, 07:52 PM
I have dealt with one who kidnapped a baby for sexual purposes. If you care to go down that path, have at it. Too high of a price for the monster has been paid. I have not seen any stats on anyone successfully raising a baby they stole. These would be some choices left for Lisa's disappearance. The other would be a thrill killing.

I don't care to go with the sexual pedophile baby raper, it happens. I don't think it happened in this case and I don't even want to know about any other cases. ONCE is enough. According to the thinking of the 1%, we would have to put this scenario back in.

For those who believe Lisa is in the under 1%, nothing will convince them otherwise. typical stranger abductions who murder for sexual reasons do not do too much to hide the body. Those who are related and not insane will go out of their way to conceal it. I believe Lisa is dead and she died in that house sometime between the night before and the night she was reported. Stats are high for this opinion. The behavior of the parents combined with some facts released point in their direction.

Whisperer
10-12-2012, 08:00 PM
I consider people who actually work with criminals and have training much more capable of making an assessment based on facts given and reading their files, more capable than just a book learned person. You can have all the education in the world but if you don't have gut instincts and a working kge about criminals, you will either get physically hurt (by the criminal) or you won't be much use in addressing the criminal behavior at hand.

Plenty of people have education but possess no gut instincts. It is not a good situation for those people to place themselves around criminals. It is dangerous for them and for people who work with them. You can't teach gut instincts.

4Jacy
10-12-2012, 10:39 PM
I have dealt with one who kidnapped a baby for sexual purposes. If you care to go down that path, have at it. Too high of a price for the monster has been paid. I have not seen any stats on anyone successfully raising a baby they stole. These would be some choices left for Lisa's disappearance. The other would be a thrill killing.

I don't care to go with the sexual pedophile baby raper, it happens. I don't think it happened in this case and I don't even want to know about any other cases. ONCE is enough. According to the thinking of the 1%, we would have to put this scenario back in.

For those who believe Lisa is in the under 1%, nothing will convince them otherwise. typical stranger abductions who murder for sexual reasons do not do too much to hide the body. Those who are related and not insane will go out of their way to conceal it. I believe Lisa is dead and she died in that house sometime between the night before and the night she was reported. Stats are high for this opinion. The behavior of the parents combined with some facts released point in their direction.

BBM

I don't believe that either, not for one minute! 3 people: JI, DB, PN are first on my list!

RANCH
10-13-2012, 10:55 PM
Yes, Statistics are compiled for babies under the age of ONE YEAR. It has been posted numerous times. Out of 238, over 98% of the time, the parent is involved. 13 were stranger and 12 of them were found/returned. One was not found.

If one cares to continue to go for the under 1% and put Lisa in that category, there will be no facts that will convince you otherwise. At this point, it becomes more along the lines of wishful thinking, than leaning towards the logic of statistics and the outcome of these type cases.

Could you provide a link to support your statistics of the 238 babies? I'd like to read more about it.

RANCH
10-13-2012, 11:13 PM
WOODROW TRIPP, FMR. POLICE COMMANDER: Nancy, that's very significant. And I totally agree with Pat. And certainly, she's the expert on profiling. But you also have a person here that needed to dismember the body in order to get it into a bag, certainly for easier transport.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1210/11/ng.01.html

so-- there it is. right from the horse's mouth: LE in the US holds ms brown in great esteem. <modsnip>

BBMG
So how does having one former police commander indorsing Pat Brown mean that "LE in the US holds ms brown in great esteem"? The fact that they both were on the same show would suggest to me that they are two talking heads that will promote each other when necessary. JMO.

Whisperer
10-14-2012, 12:15 AM
Could you provide a link to support your statistics of the 238 babies? I'd like to read more about it.

Aritcle written on Oct 8, 2011.

It was 278 babies; I thought it was 238 (going from memory). Report was done by Ernie Allen, president of missing and exploited children. He was quoted in the link below.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700186327/Family-of-missing-baby-setting-up-reward.html?pg=all

Sabot
10-14-2012, 04:38 AM
BBMG
So how does having one former police commander indorsing Pat Brown mean that "LE in the US holds ms brown in great esteem"? The fact that they both were on the same show would suggest to me that they are two talking heads that will promote each other when necessary. JMO.

Did Pat Brown actually say anything of any importance re Profiling during that Programme? If so, I must have missed it. Nancy Grace cut her off before she hardly opened her mouth. Very sensible, if you ask me.

Whisperer
10-16-2012, 01:27 AM
Aritcle written on Oct 8, 2011.

It was 278 babies; I thought it was 238 (going from memory). Report was done by Ernie Allen, president of missing and exploited children. He was quoted in the link below.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700186327/Family-of-missing-baby-setting-up-reward.html?pg=all

...also in this article, you will take note that DB and JI didn't even go the the police dept on the 8th of Oct, 2011, they talked by telephone. This was news to me...as I was led to believe that the parents were at the station. This reduces the actual number of times LE has seen the parents face-to-face.

This article and its stats gives credence to Pat Brown and her theory regarding the abduction of Lisa Irwin. If Lisa was taken by strangers, she would have been located by now. As most BABIES who are abducted are located. Most are killed by the parent/s and seldom is a stranger and the baby not located. In fact only one out of 278 in the U.S has NOT been located.

The stats give credence to Pat Brown and her theory.

redheadedgal
10-16-2012, 03:06 AM
Did Pat Brown actually say anything of any importance re Profiling during that Programme? If so, I must have missed it.


if you read the transcript thoroughly you'd know what she said about pedophiles' preferences (either girls or boys) and "dumping grounds" and what she theorized that meant about the perp ;)

4Jacy
10-16-2012, 04:02 AM
...also in this article, you will take note that DB and JI didn't even go the the police dept on the 8th of Oct, 2011, they talked by telephone. This was news to me...as I was led to believe that the parents were at the station. This reduces the actual number of times LE has seen the parents face-to-face.

This article and its stats gives credence to Pat Brown and her theory regarding the abduction of Lisa Irwin. If Lisa was taken by strangers, she would have been located by now. As most BABIES who are abducted are located. Most are killed by the parent/s and seldom is a stranger and the baby not located. In fact only one out of 278 in the U.S has NOT been located.

The stats give credence to Pat Brown and her theory.

BBM

Oh my God! I didn't know that either, thanks Whisp!

RANCH
10-16-2012, 05:16 PM
Aritcle written on Oct 8, 2011.

It was 278 babies; I thought it was 238 (going from memory). Report was done by Ernie Allen, president of missing and exploited children. He was quoted in the link below.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700186327/Family-of-missing-baby-setting-up-reward.html?pg=all

In the link that you provided there are these statements dated Oct 8th 2011.
Allen said his organization has handled 278 infant abduction cases during his nearly three decades with the group. Only 13 cases involved a stranger coming into a home and taking a baby, and all but one of those children were recovered unharmed.

I went to the NCMEC website and found more current information that shows the 13 cases involving a stranger coming into a home and talking a baby is way off. This information shows that between 1983 and 2012, 116 out of 287 infant abductions by non-family members were taken from homes.
HOMES: 116 (40%) Located = 112
Missing = 4

That's 40% of the total of all non-family infant abductions. I don't know how the AP reporter who wrote the article came up with only 13 but it's not even close. The number could even be a bit higher for infants up to Lisa's age because the stats listed are only for infants between birth and 6 months of age.

Now it does show that out of the 116 abducted infants 112 were located which is great. I wonder how many of these 112 took over a year to be located? Hopefully Lisa will be on the located list soon.

So we see that this article has some misinformation in it. I think that next we need to see if the statement of Capt. Steve Young about the phone interview is accurate or not.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700186327/Family-of-missing-baby-setting-up-reward.html?pg=all

http://www.ncmec.org/en_US/documents/InfantAbductionStats.pdf

RANCH
10-16-2012, 07:45 PM
...also in this article, you will take note that DB and JI didn't even go the the police dept on the 8th of Oct, 2011, they talked by telephone. This was news to me...as I was led to believe that the parents were at the station. This reduces the actual number of times LE has seen the parents face-to-face.

This article and its stats gives credence to Pat Brown and her theory regarding the abduction of Lisa Irwin. If Lisa was taken by strangers, she would have been located by now. As most BABIES who are abducted are located. Most are killed by the parent/s and seldom is a stranger and the baby not located. In fact only one out of 278 in the U.S has NOT been located.

The stats give credence to Pat Brown and her theory.
BBM
I found an updated version of the same AP article that says this.
Police say the parents of a missing 10-month-old Kansas City girl are meeting with detectives, two days after investigators said the couple had stopped cooperating.

Police spokesman Capt. Steve Young says the parents of Lisa Irwin sat down with investigators Saturday afternoon.


THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

It appears that the AP reporter may have misunderstood something or was just having a bad day. JMO.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2011/oct/08/parents-of-missing-mo-baby-meeting-with-police/?ap&page=1#article

redheadedgal
10-16-2012, 09:55 PM
the AP reporter DID NOT get it wrong. he quoted stats from ernie allen, the president of NCMEC, who gave stats for cases HIS organization (NCMEC) worked on (see the quote you inserted into your own post). the other study incorportates info from other organizations. also, ernie allen's stats include only those cases where a bona-fide stranger took the baby which is not necessarily the case for the second study linked. "non-family" there means not a parent or guardian... which does not mean "stranger". if i missed the descriptor of "stranger" somewhere, please correct me...

to me this second study/comparison reads like trying to compare an apple to well, anything else but an apple...

RANCH
10-16-2012, 10:25 PM
the AP reporter DID NOT get it wrong. he quoted stats from ernie allen, the president of NCMEC, who gave stats for cases HIS organization (NCMEC) worked on (see the quote you inserted into your own post). the other study incorportates info from other organizations. also, ernie allen's stats include only those cases where a bona-fide stranger took the baby which is not necessarily the case for the second study linked. "non-family" there means not a parent or guardian... which does not mean "stranger". if i missed the descriptor of "stranger" somewhere, please correct me...

to me this second study/comparison reads like trying to compare an apple to well, anything else but an apple...

I disagree. The stats I got came from NCMEC. If you can come up with a different link to support your post, I'll gladly look at it.

Whisperer
10-17-2012, 01:48 AM
In the link that you provided there are these statements dated Oct 8th 2011.


I went to the NCMEC website and found more current information that shows the 13 cases involving a stranger coming into a home and talking a baby is way off. This information shows that between 1983 and 2012, 116 out of 287 infant abductions by non-family members were taken from homes.


That's 40% of the total of all non-family infant abductions. I don't know how the AP reporter who wrote the article came up with only 13 but it's not even close. The number could even be a bit higher for infants up to Lisa's age because the stats listed are only for infants between birth and 6 months of age.

Now it does show that out of the 116 abducted infants 112 were located which is great. I wonder how many of these 112 took over a year to be located? Hopefully Lisa will be on the located list soon.

So we see that this article has some misinformation in it. I think that next we need to see if the statement of Capt. Steve Young about the phone interview is accurate or not.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700186327/Family-of-missing-baby-setting-up-reward.html?pg=all

http://www.ncmec.org/en_US/documents/InfantAbductionStats.pdf There is no error. Ernie Allen is quoted directly on stats of babies Under one year that are abducted or claimed to be abducted.

in Most infants are recovered immediately. There are no signs of a stranger abduction the Irwin Case.

The reporter quoted Ernie Allen, president of missing and exploited children. I doubt Mr. Allen got his facts wrong. He made the statement a few days after the report of lisa missing. He stated clearly that out of 278 babies (under the age of one) reported abducted, 13 were by strangers, 12 were recovered.

He also said 1500 children die each year at the hands of their parents.

....I also reviewed that link you posted (ncmec) and that stat concerns babies who are abducted from the hospitals/facilties and are newborns. That link and those stats do not pertain to this case.

Sabot
10-17-2012, 06:10 AM
Isn't it a fact that if only one child has been proven to be abducted by a stranger then it remains a possibility?
And we do know that more than one child has been abducted by a stranger.

RANCH
10-17-2012, 09:35 AM
There is no error. Ernie Allen is quoted directly on stats of babies Under one year that are abducted or claimed to be abducted.

in Most infants are recovered immediately. There are no signs of a stranger abduction the Irwin Case.

The reporter quoted Ernie Allen, president of missing and exploited children. I doubt Mr. Allen got his facts wrong. He made the statement a few days after the report of lisa missing. He stated clearly that out of 278 babies (under the age of one) reported abducted, 13 were by strangers, 12 were recovered.

He also said 1500 children die each year at the hands of their parents.

....I also reviewed that link you posted (ncmec) and that stat concerns babies who are abducted from the hospitals/facilties and are newborns. That link and those stats do not pertain to this case.
Repeating what the AP reporter wrote doesn't change what the actual statistics are. I doubt that Mr Allen got the got his facts wrong but the reporter could have made a mistake like he did in the same article when he said that Lisa's parents talked to LE by phone and had not met with them in person.

I think that you need to look at the data that I posted over again. It clearly lists three categories.
Abductions by Non-Family Members from healthcare facilities, homes, and "other places" of Newborns/Infants (birth to 6 months).

Category #2 is abductions from homes between 1983 to 2012. They number 116 which is 40% of the total number of 287.

If you can show actual data disproving the statistics that I got from the NCMEC website please provide a link.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2011/oct/08/parents-of-missing-mo-baby-meeting-with-police/?ap

http://www.ncmec.org/en_US/documents/InfantAbductionStats.pdf

RANCH
10-17-2012, 09:38 AM
Isn't it a fact that if only one child has been proven to be abducted by a stranger then it remains a possibility?
And we do know that more than one child has been abducted by a stranger.

Of course it's possible. No matter how lopsided the statistics are they don't prove anything. JMO.

Whisperer
10-17-2012, 03:58 PM
Of course it's possible. No matter how lopsided the statistics are they don't prove anything. JMO. To say that statistics don't prove anything is erroneous. They prove what happens in over 98% of cases of this type.

In thirty years, 278 babies under one year were claimed abducted and of those 13 were by strangers; 12 were returned unharmed and one was not. t is clear. Link has been given as requested. That is all that can be done. It a person chooses not to believe the expert, that is their choice and there is nothing that can change the mind. I honored their request...and that is all I can do.

Whisperer
10-17-2012, 11:47 PM
Of course it's possible. No matter how lopsided the statistics are they don't prove anything. JMO.

....Statistics are kept for a very good reason. They show trends, how much insurance we pay, etc. Stats do show what will likely happen or has happened. They help us in many ways. Stats tell us about health aspects etc. Drs. don't ignore them.

Are we being asked to assume the reporter, in this case linked, got the facts wrong from the expert? At some point logic and reason has to be entertained. To keep questioning over and over again and attempting to rearrange the facts of the expert is futile. Saying stats don't matter is wrong. Stats do matter. Of course, if one doesn't like what they are, they can choose to ignore them. That is always an option.

In this case, I see no reason why the president of missing children would like to mislead the public. I also see why Pat Brown sees the case the way she does.

Mrs G Norris
10-18-2012, 12:00 AM
Did Pat Brown actually say anything of any importance re Profiling during that Programme? If so, I must have missed it. Nancy Grace cut her off before she hardly opened her mouth. Very sensible, if you ask me.

What cases has Pat Brown actually worked on?

Whisperer
10-18-2012, 12:10 AM
If we go a different route than it is necessary to set a premise of what one believed happened to baby Lisa. This list includes some aspects of reasons for children missing.

1. suicide/runaway
2. murder/homicide
3. accidental death/manslaughter/negligent homicide
4. family or person known to family...abduction for custody/revenge
5. stranger abduction for wanting a child of their own
6. stranger abduction for selling a child
7. stranger abduction for rape
8. stranger abduction for revenge

Whisperer
10-18-2012, 12:11 AM
I get the impression Pat Brown has a working kge of criminal behavior. I think she is retired and is now an author. I think people who actually work with criminals and have a kge of their behavior should have some credit in their assessment. Personally I prefer Mark Fuhrman but Pat Brown offers some credence. I take bits and pieces from her but usually swallow the entire scenario MF put out there. He was a detective and being from LA has much more experience with crime and criminals. He also has a good "gut" instinct.

Whisperer
10-18-2012, 12:22 AM
I don't think for one moment that KCPD believe the story the irwins and bradleys have put out there. They have to follow through with what is given them and therein lies the problem. Everything rests on the shoulders of LE and nothing on the parents.

RANCH
10-20-2012, 09:53 PM
[/B]
....Statistics are kept for a very good reason. They show trends, how much insurance we pay, etc. Stats do show what will likely happen or has happened. They help us in many ways. Stats tell us about health aspects etc. Drs. don't ignore them.

Are we being asked to assume the reporter, in this case linked, got the facts wrong from the expert? At some point logic and reason has to be entertained. To keep questioning over and over again and attempting to rearrange the facts of the expert is futile. Saying stats don't matter is wrong. Stats do matter. Of course, if one doesn't like what they are, they can choose to ignore them. That is always an option.

In this case, I see no reason why the president of missing children would like to mislead the public. I also see why Pat Brown sees the case the way she does.
I think that statistics can be useful in many of things that you mention so I do feel that they matter. Can statistics prove that DB is guilty of harming Lisa? I don't think so. If things were that easy, we wouldn't need jury trials, you just look at the statistics and declare people guilty. If the statistics show that its unlikely that your guilty, you walk. I'd rather stick with actual evidence. And guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

All I can say at this point about the NCMEC statistics is do you feel that they have it wrong on their website, or perhaps the reporter made a mistake? I vote that the reporter got it wrong.
JMO.

Whisperer
10-21-2012, 12:55 AM
When I read the link that was posted by your link, it stated the stats were for babies under 6 mos. I stand by what Ernie Allen was quoted regarding babies under one year, unless he himself comes out and states it was wrong.

It is very rare for strangers to abduct babies under the age of one. Chances are very good that it is the parent or someone known to the parent who is responsible for the child missing.

Of course, anyone can choose to believe what they want but stats say it is more likely than not, the parent. The stats become more relevant when you consider the behavior of the evidence and clues to how LE is handling the case.

brit1981
10-26-2012, 08:35 AM
If I disappeared I would think my human rights had been abused if someone with a masters degree declared themselves a criminal profiler and went on TV encouraging everyone to belive I was dead and murdered by my partner because statistically that is most likely.
If detective work was just a case of looking up some statistics it would be a lot easier. Yes most crimes turn out to be domestic, but some do not and these are the ones that can be difficult to solve because they is no suspect to look at, it could be any random.
most female murder victims are murdered by their partners or ex partners, but that does not mean Ted Bundy was innocent, yet according to the statistics these young women (not all of whom were found) should have been killed by a boyfriend.
Most rapes are carried out by partners or ex partners, but does that mean we should nto believe any women claimign a stranger raped her because it goes against the statistics?

OEJ
10-29-2012, 04:02 PM
Statistics are used by profilers to give a possibly more fruitful avenue of investigation. That's all. In my view, Pat Brown is one of the best self-taught profilers around. I think she's good.

brit1981
10-29-2012, 04:20 PM
Statistics are used by profilers to give a possibly more fruitful avenue of investigation. That's all. In my view, Pat Brown is one of the best self-taught profilers around. I think she's good.

I disagree, and I think it is generous to even call her a profiler. She admits that she used books to teach herself profiling, so she did not actually read proper journals and articles. I have not heard of one case she helped solve, or even one case where she has actually been employed by LE to aid in a case. Correct me if I am wrong but is she not the woman who claimed Jessica ridgeways family were involved, despite the police saying they were not?
To be honest Brown just comes across to me as a rather sad housewife who wants to be like people she sees on CSI and does not actual work in criminal investigations any more than ay person commenting on a forum does.

If anyone can actually tell me of a case where she has been employed by LE to assist in a case I will be happy to review my opinion.

brit1981
10-29-2012, 06:32 PM
http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/41720163/Analysis%20and%20Rebuttal%20of%20Pat%20Brown%27s%2 0ebook%20%22Profile%20of%20the%20Disappearance%20o f%20Madeleine%20McCann%20(UPDATE

The above is about a different case (madeleine mccann), but it is a detailed analysis of pat browns writings about the mccann case and provides primary sources that demonstrate Brown was presenting inaccurate material.

Whisperer
10-30-2012, 02:30 AM
I know for a fact that people have "gut" feelings about a crime and working around criminals. Those that don't get hurt, injured or fooled more times than you would care to count. It takes a certain kind of person to "get it". You either have ir or you don't.

Of the book learning you can muster doesn't matter a hoot if you can't tell or recognize perps for what they are. Gut instinct can't be taught. I'd much prefer to be working around somebody like Pat Brown than others who have no clue on what is going on and want to focus on the wildest and oddest chance that a fluke happened.

In this particular case, we have no evidence of a break-in. We have a cadaver dog hitting in the house and a set of parents that refuse to cooperate.

This doesn't even require having gut instinct to solve. It is just what it appears to be.

brit1981
10-30-2012, 06:20 AM
I know for a fact that people have "gut" feelings about a crime and working around criminals. Those that don't get hurt, injured or fooled more times than you would care to count. It takes a certain kind of person to "get it". You either have ir or you don't.

Of the book learning you can muster doesn't matter a hoot if you can't tell or recognize perps for what they are. Gut instinct can't be taught. I'd much prefer to be working around somebody like Pat Brown than others who have no clue on what is going on and want to focus on the wildest and oddest chance that a fluke happened.

In this particular case, we have no evidence of a break-in. We have a cadaver dog hitting in the house and a set of parents that refuse to cooperate.

This doesn't even require having gut instinct to solve. It is just what it appears to be.

Er but Pat Brown does not have experience working with criminals or criminal investigation. She is a housewife who read a few popular science books and declared herself an expert because in america anyone is allowed to call themselves a criminal profiler, and now goes on TV. She ,is not anyone who actually has anything to with criminal investigations.

I have also never seen a case where brown's gut instinct has been proven right. Did the police not arrest someone for jessica ridgeways murder, and despite browns claims it was the parents, that person was not the parents? I

Can anyone actually name a case where brown has been employed by LE and where her gut instincts have solved a case?

And far as I am aware the LE have released very little information, even to brown (shock horror, do they not know who she is), so the facts people are putting out here may be anything but, as the media can more or less print any rubbish they want under their interpretation of free speech. This means people can spew spite all they want, but cannot rely on the media for actual facts. One would think people might have learnt their lesson from the casey anthony case were the information given out pretrial did not match the facts given to the jury, but apparently not. Remember how the media went on about h ow the expert had said there were incredibly high levels of chloroform, the highest he had ever seen, and then when asked this in the trial he said this was not the case at all.

Whisperer
10-31-2012, 02:43 AM
Isn't this thread supposed to be about Lisa Irwin and pat browns ideas about the case? All I ever heard her say was that this MAY be a case of Munchausen by Proxy. I can't explain my reasoning on this but I tend to agree that may be a factor. Oftentimes people who work around or with criminals get a hunch...and that is all she is given you. To continue to pick her apart is not going anywhere. She knows a heck of a lot more than most of us concerning psychopaths and criminals.

Most experts will tell you that they believe one or both parents are involved in Lisa's death. I understand there are some that don't choose to believe them. C'est la vie!

Whisperer
10-31-2012, 02:57 AM
Pat Brown has interviewed killers. When people can study their records and read about their behavior and have access to the criminal themselves, you can learn something about profiling. In fact, the FBI from Quantico have also studied the files of certain types and asked for inmates to talk to. Where do you think they learned how to profile?

I get the impression this is a matter of killing the messenger. DB and Ii are the problem with this case...not Pat Brown. If the purpose of making her hard work look bad is the point then I guess this thread is serving the purpose.

brit1981
10-31-2012, 05:10 AM
This thread is about pat brown and her comparing this case to others. The fact that she is not a criminologist, and is only allowed to call herself a profiler because they is a giant loophole in the law which allows anyone to call themselves a profiler (i.e we could call ourselves profilers), is relevant to a thread about her opinions. She is not anythign to do with criminal investigations, she read a few pop books and then goes on TV spouting her opinions (although that seems to have diminished) she does not know anything about killers and criminals. I read one of her comments where she tells people to see if any pyschopaths living locally are behaving abnormally, anther one where she tells people that the Norwegian killer was not a terrorist because she had the idea that terrorists only worked in groups!!

And still no-one has been able to name one case which she has solved, or where she has been employed by the police on an active case. Her profiling seems to be read a few basic popular books, then spout off opinions and tell any actual professionals who disagree that they know nothing.

Whisperer
10-31-2012, 05:06 PM
Pat Brown has way more experience than most do and yes, she is entitled to call herself a profiler just as the people who came out to prison to read and talk to criminals. It is not an exact science.

If any of you studied as hard as she, interviewed criminals and studied criminal behavior, yes, you may be considered a pretty good candidate for being able to profile.

Pat Brown is not a crime solver. She has taught some le how to profile criminals. She has studied behavior. Apparently some don't like her and don't care about her education and experience.

Perhaps more effort here should be given in studying jeremy and db's behavior. They are the ones needing to be profiled. So is the effort here to discredit Pat Brown and say she doesn't know what she is talking about? Are people taking offense to Pat Brown suggesting the parents are involved? Why kill the messinger?

Pat Brown must hit some's nerves because there is great effort placed in trying to show she is an incompetent.

Bottom line: A profiler is not a crime solver. They can assist those who do.

4Jacy
10-31-2012, 05:48 PM
Pat Brown has way more experience than most do and yes, she is entitled to call herself a profiler just as the people who came out to prison to read and talk to criminals. It is not an exact science.

If any of you studied as hard as she, interviewed criminals and studied criminal behavior, yes, you may be considered a pretty good candidate for being able to profile.

Pat Brown is not a crime solver. She has taught some le how to profile criminals. She has studied behavior. Apparently some don't like her and don't care about her education and experience.

Perhaps more effort here should be given in studying jeremy and db's behavior. They are the ones needing to be profiled. So is the effort here to discredit Pat Brown and say she doesn't know what she is talking about? Are people taking offense to Pat Brown suggesting the parents are involved? Why kill the messinger?

Pat Brown must hit some's nerves because there is great effort placed in trying to show she is an incompetent.

Bottom line: A profiler is not a crime solver. They can assist those who do.

BBM

Whisp, thank you for your post (on many levels), especially the bolded above.

redheadedgal
10-31-2012, 05:56 PM
we could call ourselves profilers? i don't think so lol... i doubt anyone here has the education and experience, has completed similar research or had access to the police files necessary to do so...

RANCH
10-31-2012, 06:04 PM
we could call ourselves profilers? i don't think so lol... i doubt anyone here has the education and experience, has completed similar research or had access to the police files necessary to do so...

Your right. And no one here has been a talking head on the Nancy Grace show either.

How does Pat Brown get access to police files that the general public can't? Do you have a link for that or is it your opinion?

RANCH
10-31-2012, 06:49 PM
Pat Brown has way more experience than most do and yes, she is entitled to call herself a profiler just as the people who came out to prison to read and talk to criminals. It is not an exact science.

If any of you studied as hard as she, interviewed criminals and studied criminal behavior, yes, you may be considered a pretty good candidate for being able to profile.

Pat Brown is not a crime solver. She has taught some le how to profile criminals. She has studied behavior. Apparently some don't like her and don't care about her education and experience.

Perhaps more effort here should be given in studying jeremy and db's behavior. They are the ones needing to be profiled. So is the effort here to discredit Pat Brown and say she doesn't know what she is talking about? Are people taking offense to Pat Brown suggesting the parents are involved? Why kill the messinger?

Pat Brown must hit some's nerves because there is great effort placed in trying to show she is an incompetent.

Bottom line: A profiler is not a crime solver. They can assist those who do.

I have no idea what kind of education and experience Pat Brown has that qualifies her as a criminal profiler. All I know about her is seeing her on the Nancy Grace show.

I don't see a "great effort" to show that Pat Brown is incompetent. I do see some people asking about her track record and qualifications. Why would that be showing that it "hit some's nerves"? Since no one has provided the links showing Pat Brown's record in assisting in solving a crime, I would suggest that the questioning of her record as a profiler may be what's hitting on some nerves. MOO.

brit1981
11-01-2012, 05:16 AM
we could call ourselves profilers? i don't think so lol... i doubt anyone here has the education and experience, has completed similar research or had access to the police files necessary to do so...

Yes, legally in the US anyone can call themselves a profiler. There are no rules about education or experience. That is why Pat Brown a woman with joust a masters, no actual experience of LE investigations has been able to present herself a profiler on the basis of reading some popular science type books. She would not be able to call herself a criminologist, or criminal psychologist for instance. And I do not think she has access to all of those police files in the Irwin case.

brit1981
11-01-2012, 05:32 AM
my replies in bold
Pat Brown has way more experience than most do and yes, she is entitled to call herself a profiler just as the people who came out to prison to read and talk to criminals. It is not an exact science.

Only because legally in the US anyone can call themselves a profiler. And please can someeone provide a link or citation t where she has actually been employed by LE to work on a case. So far her supporters have refused to do this.

If any of you studied as hard as she, interviewed criminals and studied criminal behavior, yes, you may be considered a pretty good candidate for being able to profile.

she did a masters, and read some pop books. That does not qualify as studying hard, it i just insulting to real criminologists to think this qualifies her as an expert

Pat Brown is not a crime solver. She has taught some le how to profile criminals. She has studied behavior. Apparently some don't like her and don't care about her education and experience.

Can you provide evidence of what LEs have actually employed her as a teacher, and can you provide links to demonstrate she has a proper education qualifying her as a "profiler" not just a masters and somer pop book reading.

Perhaps more effort here should be given in studying jeremy and db's behavior. They are the ones needing to be profiled. So is the effort here to discredit Pat Brown and say she doesn't know what she is talking about? Are people taking offense to Pat Brown suggesting the parents are involved? Why kill the mesringer?

There is no effort to discredit Brown, it is easy she does it herself. People are taking offense because she is in their opinion abusing the loophole that allows anyone to call themselves a profiler and then damaging investigations by going on TV claiming to be a expert and telling people sheknows the truth.

Pat Brown must hit some's nerves because there is great effort placed in trying to show she is an incompetent.
Again no effort needed. And I think it is those who have pointed out she is not a real expert that have hit a nerve. notice how Notice how her supporters claim others are discredit her, but fail to actually provide evidence to her credit.

Bottom line: A profiler is not a crime solver. They can assist those who do.

Well we all know s he does not solve crimes, so far no-one has proved a shred of evidence that she has ever been employed to assist in an investigation. Can anyone provide any evidence to support the claim tha she has assisted LE?

nursebeeme
11-01-2012, 11:59 AM
this is not a thread to argue. The opening post/topic of this thread has been exhausted and this thread will be closed.