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Soulmagent
10-25-2011, 10:42 AM
My local courthouse which I live very close in under a Bomb threat...interesting morning..people are everywhere outside.

Kinda looks like it did in the first clips of right before the trial started in Conrads case.

Here are the links.


MajicAtl.
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150211&v=1&libid=1317387045927&out=http%3A%2F%2Fmajicatl.com%2Fvideos%2Fmajicatl% 2Fwatch-the-conrad-murray-michael-jackson-death-trial-here-live-stream%2F&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fuse rcp.php&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20three.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fmajicatl.com%2Fvideos%2Fmajicatl% 2F...e-live-stream%2F&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13173872342816


TMZ
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150800&v=1&libid=1318426669028&out=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.viglink.com%2Fapi%2Fclick%3Ff ormat%3Dgo%26drKey%3D910%26loc%3Dhttp%253A%252F%25 2Fwww.websleuths.com%252Fforums%252Fshowthread.php %253Ft%253D150211%26v%3D1%26libid%3D1317387045927% 26out%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.tmz.com%252F%26ref% 3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.websleuths.com%252Fforums %252Fusercp.php%26title%3DConrad%2520Murray%2520tr ial%2520-Day%2520three.%2520-%2520Websleuths%2520Crime%2520Sleuthing%2520Commun ity%26txt%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.tmz.com%252F%26 jsonp%3Dvglnk_jsonp_13173871051031&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Ffor umdisplay.php%3Ff%3D462&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20nine.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.viglink.com%2Fapi%2Fclick%3Ff or...13173871051031&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13184268344095



My Fox
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News star.
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Click2Houston
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150211&v=1&libid=1317387045927&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.click2houston.com%2Fvideo%2F2 9313639%2Findex.html&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fuse rcp.php&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20three.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.click2houston.com%2Fvideo%2F2 9313639%2Findex.html&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13173871975894ng

CNN
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150800&v=1&libid=1318426669028&out=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.viglink.com%2Fapi%2Fclick%3Ff ormat%3Dgo%26drKey%3D910%26loc%3Dhttp%253A%252F%25 2Fwww.websleuths.com%252Fforums%252Fshowthread.php %253Ft%253D150211%26v%3D1%26libid%3D1317387045927% 26out%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.cnn.com%252Fvideo%2 52F%26ref%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.websleuths.com% 252Fforums%252Fusercp.php%26title%3DConrad%2520Mur ray%2520trial%2520-Day%2520three.%2520-%2520Websleuths%2520Crime%2520Sleuthing%2520Commun ity%26txt%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.cnn.com%252Fvid eo%252F%26jsonp%3Dvglnk_jsonp_13173872142345&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Ffor umdisplay.php%3Ff%3D462&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20nine.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.viglink.com%2Fapi%2Fclick%3Ff or...13173872142345&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13184269652286



LA LOCAL TIMES.
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Upstream
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ABC Local channel seven
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ITUNE link.
http://www.apple.com/itunes/affiliates/download/?id=464322481

Breathe
10-25-2011, 11:39 AM
Hope everyone's ok. ?

Credence
10-25-2011, 11:56 AM
Good morning all :)

Lawyers for Dr. Conrad Murray were expected to question the witnesses, Jackson's longtime hairdresser and the entertainment executive overseeing his comeback, about his final days, a period in which they have portrayed him as racked with anxiety and addled by drugs.

The hairdresser, Karen Faye, and the executive, Randy Phillips, were to take the stand on the second of what is anticipated to be a four-day defense case. Murray, 58, stands accused of involuntary manslaughter in Jackson's June 25, 2009, death.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/10/conrad-murray-trial-hairdresser-among-witnesses-to-testify.html

Credence
10-25-2011, 11:57 AM
According to IS - attorneys are with the Judge outside of the Jury. The defense wants to bring in the AEG contract and the state is objecting.

peace9274
10-25-2011, 12:11 PM
According to IS - attorneys are with the Judge outside of the Jury. The defense wants to bring in the AEG contract and the state is objecting.

BBM

Good Morning Everyone... :seeya:

I'm not fully awake yet, need cuppa coffee # 2, so I'm wondering why
the state is objecting to the AEG contract being brought into court.

(According to HLN, traffic in the area may be causing a late start.)

Credence
10-25-2011, 12:15 PM
BBM

Good Morning Everyone... :seeya:

I'm not fully awake yet, need cuppa coffee # 2, so I'm wondering why
the state is objecting to the AEG contract being brought into court.

(According to HLN, traffic in the area may be causing a late start.)

Yes; just heard a couple of the jurors may be running late as well but the attorneys are in with the Judge so guess it worked out. :)

I don't understand what the argument is over the AEG contract either.

This is a copy of the contract:

http://dearconradmurray.com/documents/michaels-aeg-contract/

Talina
10-25-2011, 12:17 PM
BBM

Good Morning Everyone... :seeya:

I'm not fully awake yet, need cuppa coffee # 2, so I'm wondering why
the state is objecting to the AEG contract being brought into court.

(According to HLN, traffic in the area may be causing a late start.)

The reason the defense wants to bring it in is because they want to show the financial strain (i.e. stress) this concert tour was having on MJ. Supposedly there is a clause in the contract that allowed AEG to cancel the tour if MJ was missing rehearsals and if they cancel MJ had to pay them back all costs up to date they had spent on the tour. So, their theory is MJ put pressure on CM to give him all this propofol crap so that he wouldn't be too tired to make all the rehearsals.

The judge already ruled nothing to do with MJs finances could be brought up at the trial so that the trial stays on point and isn't derailed with areas of MJs life that have nothing to do with charges against CM.

This contract is a backdoor way of doing that.

Talina
10-25-2011, 12:19 PM
Beth Karas just said that the judge ruled against the AEG/MJ contract coming into evidence.

Crosby87
10-25-2011, 12:25 PM
Good morning all :)

Lawyers for Dr. Conrad Murray were expected to question the witnesses, Jackson's longtime hairdresser and the entertainment executive overseeing his comeback, about his final days, a period in which they have portrayed him as racked with anxiety and addled by drugs.

The hairdresser, Karen Faye, and the executive, Randy Phillips, were to take the stand on the second of what is anticipated to be a four-day defense case. Murray, 58, stands accused of involuntary manslaughter in Jackson's June 25, 2009, death.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/10/conrad-murray-trial-hairdresser-among-witnesses-to-testify.html

In their ongoing effort to suggest Michael Jackson was a desperate man who accidentally took his own life, defense lawyers for his former physician were set Tuesday to call two members of the singer's inner circle to the stand.

His lawyers contend Jackson gave himself a lethal amount of the surgical anesthetic propofol in an effort to deal with chronic insomnia that was jeopardizing rehearsals crucial to the success of his "This Is It" comeback concerts.

Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor has barred the defense from delving into Jackson's troubled finances, but in the filing, Gourjian called the contract "vital to the defense".

"It is…imperative for the jury to review the Agreement to understand the stringent requirements that were placed on Mr. Jackson and to illustrate that, under the circumstances, the actions taken by Mr. Jackson on June 25, 2009 were not unreasonable," the lawyer wrote.

Thundar
10-25-2011, 12:26 PM
The reason the defense wants to bring it in is because they want to show the financial strain (i.e. stress) this concert tour was having on MJ. Supposedly there is a clause in the contract that allowed AEG to cancel the tour if MJ was missing rehearsals and if they cancel MJ had to pay them back all costs up to date they had spent on the tour. So, their theory is MJ put pressure on CM to give him all this propofol crap so that he wouldn't be too tired to make all the rehearsals.

The judge already ruled nothing to do with MJs finances could be brought up at the trial so that the trial stays on point and isn't derailed with areas of MJs life that have nothing to do with charges against CM.

This contract is a backdoor way of doing that.

I can see why defense would want to bring that into the trial, to try and excuse Murray's actions, but it still doesn't excuse the standard of care violations. It would not excuse Murray's lack of record keeping, his lack of equipment when using propofol, or his cell phone use while visually monitoring his patient.

peace9274
10-25-2011, 12:26 PM
The reason the defense wants to bring it in is because they want to show the financial strain (i.e. stress) this concert tour was having on MJ. Supposedly there is a clause in the contract that allowed AEG to cancel the tour if MJ was missing rehearsals and if they cancel MJ had to pay them back all costs up to date they had spent on the tour. So, their theory is MJ put pressure on CM to give him all this propofol crap so that he wouldn't be too tired to make all the rehearsals.

The judge already ruled nothing to do with MJs finances could be brought up at the trial so that the trial stays on point and isn't derailed with areas of MJs life that have nothing to do with charges against CM.

This contract is a backdoor way of doing that.

Oh I am sure the defense wanted the contract in... and I get them using
anything they can to show how pressured CM was to administer the propofol to MJ.

I just wasn't getting the reason the state was objecting.

But, the Judge just ruled against letting the contract in.

Thundar
10-25-2011, 12:28 PM
Here we go. Judge is talking to jury about the traffic problems they had.

Thundar
10-25-2011, 12:31 PM
Witness needs a little time to rest and catch her breath, she was caught up in traffic. Judge is talking to lawyers now.

peace9274
10-25-2011, 12:35 PM
Oh no poor Nurse Lee.

MJ's death and the entire circumstances surrounding it, and now having to talk about it, I'm sure is affecting her.
I hope she can rest for a short time and then be able to make it back to testify.

Thundar
10-25-2011, 12:35 PM
Court is in recess, for hopefully just a little bit. No time given, just a little bit hopefully.

I have never seen a witness get dizzy and eyesight go fuzzy on the stand so that court was put into recess before. Something new today.

Talina
10-25-2011, 12:35 PM
Nurse Lee said she was dizzy and flustered, blurred vision. Judge gave her some time to go to different room to rest a bit. Jury is back in jury room.

Before she left stand, she seemed near tears and said this is very sensitive to her - judged stopped her real quick from saying what she was going to say.

peace9274
10-25-2011, 12:48 PM
Court is in recess, for hopefully just a little bit. No time given, just a little bit hopefully.

I have never seen a witness get dizzy and eyesight go fuzzy on the stand so that court was put into recess before. Something new today.

Nurse Lee probably had trouble sleeping last night, then got caught up in traffic, had trouble finding a parking place,
rushed to get into the court room, without catching breath and thoughts and emotions. Add that she's being watched
by millions on TV, etc etc etc. I can understand her feeling dizzy & stressed.

After driving in heavy traffic in Los Angeles and Manhattan so many times,
rushing to make a flight or get to work on time.... I know so well that stressful feeling traffic can cause.

It's a shame she just has a number of stressors.

Thundar
10-25-2011, 12:56 PM
Court is back in session.

peace9274
10-25-2011, 01:02 PM
It looks like Nurse Lee has a more organized notebook in which to refer.
I wonder if the DT made it up for her to use.

Yesterday Chernoff seemed perturbed that she couldn't find certain times in her own notes.

Crosby87
10-25-2011, 01:14 PM
Can Chernoff or a member of the defense team discuss the contract with Randy Phillips
when he is on the stand? TIA

Melanie
10-25-2011, 01:15 PM
Is Nurse Lee a prosecution witness? She kinda sounds like one to me!

Credence
10-25-2011, 01:17 PM
It looks like Nurse Lee has a more organized notebook in which to refer.
I wonder if the DT made it up for her to use.

Yesterday Chernoff seemed perturbed that she couldn't find certain times in her own notes.

You can tell that Chernoff has not spoken to her for this trial or interviwed her. She just responded to a subpoena. As part of the investigation, she was required to turn over her medical records and Chernoff has a copy of them.

Talina
10-25-2011, 01:17 PM
Can Chernoff or a member of the defense team discuss the contract with Randy Phillips
when he is on the stand? TIA

They can discuss the contract that was with Dr. Murray but they can not bring up the contract between AEG/MJ for the tour.

Credence
10-25-2011, 01:24 PM
Is Nurse Lee a prosecution witness? She kinda sounds like one to me!

Yes another witness for the state.:floorlaugh:

outofstatelawyer
10-25-2011, 01:26 PM
It looks like Nurse Lee has a more organized notebook in which to refer.
I wonder if the DT made it up for her to use.

Yesterday Chernoff seemed perturbed that she couldn't find certain times in her own notes.

At least she has notes and records, unlike Chernoff's client. :wink:

Credence
10-25-2011, 01:35 PM
DA Walgren is extremely organized. I hope Chernoff is taking notes.

Look how easy it is to follow his questions. He is organized and following the dates in her medical records. Something Chernoff should have done.

ges79
10-25-2011, 01:40 PM
DA Walgren is extremely organized. I hope Chernoff is taking notes.

Look how easy it is to follow his questions. He is organized and following the dates in her medical records. Something Chernoff should have done.

Is it my imagination or does this witness now seem more relaxed being questioned by Walgren verses her direct exam by Chernoff? :innocent:

Crosby87
10-25-2011, 01:41 PM
Dr. Shafer said if MJ drank Propofol, it would not effect his body right?

If this is true, then MJ wouldn't have added propofol to his beverages right?

Crosby87
10-25-2011, 01:44 PM
The side effects of propofol that Nurse Lee described are the same symptoms MJ experienced one evening at rehearsal I believe. (shivering with cold).

ges79
10-25-2011, 01:48 PM
The side effects of propofol that Nurse Lee described are the same symptoms MJ experienced one evening at rehearsal I believe. (shivering with cold).

Good memory! His choreographer noted these symptoms and said MJ was unable to rehearse. He had to give him a blanket, rub his feet and give him food.

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 01:48 PM
Chertoff better be gentle with this line of questions. (who she interviewed with, media)
She is very sympathetic, and guilt ridden in my opinion.

Credence
10-25-2011, 01:51 PM
She was a great witness for the State. I can only guess that she wishes she could have done more for MJs insomnia and doubt she has any respect for CM

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 01:52 PM
Mr. Rubin is up now. He is a Hospital exec.

Melanie
10-25-2011, 01:52 PM
Chertoff better be gentle with this line of questions. (who she interviewed with, media)
She is very sympathetic, and guilt ridden in my opinion.

I agree. This is supposed to be his witness but he's coming across as hostile.

MOO

Mel

Credence
10-25-2011, 01:53 PM
The side effects of propofol that Nurse Lee described are the same symptoms MJ experienced one evening at rehearsal I believe. (shivering with cold).

Yes. CM also spent 6 nights a week there so chances are strong that he had been there Saturday night and spent the night too.

Credence
10-25-2011, 01:55 PM
Is it my imagination or does this witness now seem more relaxed being questioned by Walgren verses her direct exam by Chernoff? :innocent:

I can only guess she did not want to be lumped in on the DT for CM nor did Dr. Metzger. In one of the hearings, Chernoff said he did not interview most of the witnesses he subpoenaed. They refused to meet with him.

Credence
10-25-2011, 02:08 PM
Oh my goodness - is this another witness Chernoff did not interview? He is not helping the DT at all. What is the purpose of him being there?

Credence
10-25-2011, 02:10 PM
Dr. Cooper told KJ about MJs death. Did not say anything about CM going into that room either. Another lie by CM and yet another witness for the state.

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 02:12 PM
Oh my goodness - is this another witness Chernoff did not interview? He is not helping the DT at all. What is the purpose of him being there?

I was just going to ask the same thing!!??? I all I got out of his testimony was that CM didn't even have the heart to tell Mrs. Jackson that her son had passed.

This defense is all over the map and going nowhere. IMO

Credence
10-25-2011, 02:14 PM
Randy Phillips -next witness - President/CEO AEG Live

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 02:15 PM
Randy Phillips up next. Lunch is from 11:30 to 1pm. Potty break for Jurors.

(he is the AEG bigwig)

ges79
10-25-2011, 02:16 PM
I was just going to ask the same thing!!??? I all I got out of his testimony was that CM didn't even have the heart to tell Mrs. Jackson that her son had passed.

This defense is all over the map and going nowhere. IMO

BBM Wasn't it on the last thread the defense is only calling 15 witnesses? If so, we are nearly halfway through their witness list.

borndem
10-25-2011, 02:18 PM
Chertoff better be gentle with this line of questions. (who she interviewed with, media)
She is very sympathetic, and guilt ridden in my opinion.


This may be echoing someone else on this -- I just jumped in here without reading all the posts heretofore, but anyway...

I simply think Nurse Lee was very attached to MJ, had gotten close to him in an entirely professional way, saw his children, and MJ had probably shared some confidences with her. She seemed very emotional about it all -- to the point of tears. She loved him in the same way many others who knew him did.

This wasn't, IMO, so much about her not wanting to be there, she simply knew it was going to take a great toll on her emotions. The In Session folks, IMO, are misunderstanding how she is feeling here, and I may be too, but this is the way I see it.... She was simply very, very sad about how his life ended -- so needlessly and too early. She may have also been thinking that her advice to him about propofol should have been more adamant and stressing more about the dangers. She is just a caring, tender-hearted person who was involved in this horrible tragedy.

Just sayin' .....

borndem
10-25-2011, 02:22 PM
The side effects of propofol that Nurse Lee described are the same symptoms MJ experienced one evening at rehearsal I believe. (shivering with cold).


Good point, Blue.

Crosby87
10-25-2011, 02:28 PM
Good memory! His choreographer noted these symptoms and said MJ was unable to rehearse. He had to give him a blanket, rub his feet and give him food.

Looks like MJ was experiencing side effects from the propofol at his rehearsals.

The side effects from propofol were probably getting worse since he had taken it for nearly 3 months before he died.

Now I understand why Michael was afraid he wouldn't be able to fulfill his AEG contract. He was warned by Nurse Lee that Propofol would kill him.

Maybe Dr. Murray saw what the propofol was doing to MJ and that's why he wanted to wean MJ off of Propofol two days before he died.

CM said MJ died after he had a reaction, so it looks like the side effects of the propofol administered by Dr Murray might have killed MJ.

JMO

Credence
10-25-2011, 02:40 PM
BBM Wasn't it on the last thread the defense is only calling 15 witnesses? If so, we are nearly halfway through their witness list.

They have to be setting the foundation for something I would think but I still do not understand how anything will excuse Dr. Murray's substantive role in MJ's death. Nothing thus far presented defends the egregious violations against him or I am missing something.

I would imagine Phillips is going to testify about the pressure MJ was under to perform and his missed rehearsals. That still does not relieve Dr M. :rolleyes:

See you all after lunch.

oceanblueeyes
10-25-2011, 02:42 PM
It may just be me but is anyone else just plain bored with the testimony.

I just don't even see why the defense even called these witnesses. Each and every time they wind up being State witnesses in the end.

The only exciting part is the cross that Walgren does.

And who really cares what years MJ went on tour way back years ago. That is sooooooooo irrelevant to what happened on June 25, 2009.


:maddening::maddening::maddening:

oceanblueeyes
10-25-2011, 02:45 PM
They have to be setting the foundation for something I would think but I still do not understand how anything will excuse Dr. Murray's substantive role in MJ's death. Nothing thus far presented defends the egregious violations against him or I am missing something.

I would imagine Phillips is going to testify about the pressure MJ was under to perform and his missed rehearsals. That still does not relieve Dr M. :rolleyes:

See you all after lunch.

All they have proven is CM is a liar.

And that no respected ethical doctor/NP would have given MJ propofol in a home setting.

Oh wait.......that helps the state.:floorlaugh:

oceanblueeyes
10-25-2011, 02:47 PM
Looks like MJ was experiencing side effects from the propofol at his rehearsals.

The side effects from propofol were probably getting worse since he had taken it for nearly 3 months before he died.

Now I understand why Michael was afraid he wouldn't be able to fulfill his AEG contract. He was warned by Nurse Lee that Propofol would kill him.

Maybe Dr. Murray saw what the propofol was doing to MJ and that's why he wanted to wean MJ off of Propofol two days before he died.

CM said MJ died after he had a reaction, so it looks like the side effects of the propofol administered by Dr Murray might have killed MJ.

JMO

I always have believed MJ got sick because of something CM wasn't doing right even on the 19th.

But Murray's answer for everything was to put a jacket on MJ. No wonder he contacted NL.

borndem
10-25-2011, 02:47 PM
I was just going to ask the same thing!!??? I all I got out of his testimony was that CM didn't even have the heart to tell Mrs. Jackson that her son had passed.

This defense is all over the map and going nowhere. IMO


I'm not so sure "heart" is the correct piece of anatomy here, 'moon... (You're being too kind, and we love you for it...}

If he had had a good, close, loving & trusting relationship with the Jacksons -- Mom, kids, Janet, Rebbie, Randy, Jermaine, & all the rest, I think CM would have been the first person in the room where he could be there with them. But, nooooooo. Okay, he was probably still in shock (I'll give him that, I guess), but he was too busy thinking, "HTH am I gonna talk my way out of this fine mess? How am I gonna save my azz?" Just my O.

outofstatelawyer
10-25-2011, 02:59 PM
I always have believed MJ got sick because of something CM wasn't doing right even on the 19th.

But Murray's answer for everything was to put a jacket on MJ. No wonder he contacted NL.

Don't forget that the autopsy report showed chronic lung problems, which Dr. Drew, for one, said was probably the result of fluid building up in the lungs from lack of ventilation while Murray was putting him under. IIRC that was not mentioned by any of the state's experts, and thus is probably not in evidence, but if we are talking theories here...

Thundar
10-25-2011, 03:02 PM
It may just be me but is anyone else just plain bored with the testimony.

I just don't even see why the defense even called these witnesses. Each and every time they wind up being State witnesses in the end.

The only exciting part is the cross that Walgren does.

And who really cares what years MJ went on tour way back years ago. That is sooooooooo irrelevant to what happened on June 25, 2009.


:maddening::maddening::maddening:

I agree. In my opinion the defense has done nothing to defend their client. The best they have done so far was trying to confuse the testimony of some of the prosecution witnesses. Their own witnesses are testifying more for the prosecution than for the defense.

borndem
10-25-2011, 03:12 PM
They have to be setting the foundation for something I would think but I still do not understand how anything will excuse Dr. Murray's substantive role in MJ's death. Nothing thus far presented defends the egregious violations against him or I am missing something.

I would imagine Phillips is going to testify about the pressure MJ was under to perform and his missed rehearsals. That still does not relieve Dr M. :rolleyes:

See you all after lunch.

BBM

ITA, Credence -- I keep wondering what huge elephant the DT is gonna bring into the courtroom, what Superman is gonna come swooping down, where is this current-day miracle-worker who's gonna change everyting in CM's favor?

The monkey is still on CM's back at this time, and he is stuck to him like glue. All over him... I'm NOT holding my breath for this one...http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif

Crosby87
10-25-2011, 03:57 PM
Yes. CM also spent 6 nights a week there so chances are strong that he had been there Saturday night and spent the night too.

No one besides CM and MJ knew CM was giving MJ propofol before MJ died.

Because MJ was given propofol while lying in a supine position, the propofol may have stayed within his abdomen overnight and saturated it over time.

This might explain why a high concentration level of propofol was found throughout his body and internal organs at autopsy; more than the amount CM said he gave MJ June 25 2009.

MJ didn't want anyone to know he was taking propofol so he couldn't honestly explain why he was so afraid he wouldn't be able to fulfill his contract with AEG.

If MJ had a blood workup after Nurse Lee's, I think Propofol would have been detected in his system.

CM & MJ must have realized Propofol was rapidly endangering MJ's health so they had a major crisis on their hands.

It sounds like the episode MJ had either before or during rehearsal was a reaction to propofol and MJ experienced a mild to moderate seizure in to the degree where he had no control of his body for a period of time.

Performing a 50 concerts in this condition wouldn't be an option imo.

Thundar
10-25-2011, 04:04 PM
Court is in session.

borndem
10-25-2011, 04:05 PM
Don't forget that the autopsy report showed chronic lung problems, which Dr. Drew, for one, said was probably the result of fluid building up in the lungs from lack of ventilation while Murray was putting him under. IIRC that was not mentioned by any of the state's experts, and thus is probably not in evidence, but if we are talking theories here...


That's a mighty good point, o-o-s-lawyer.

Further, if anyone has ever had a chest cold or pneumonia, lying flat on one's back is one of the worst things one can do -- (this is a bit icky..) -- all that fluid in the lungs has been in the bottom of the lungs, due to good ol' gravity, while you have been standing, sitting up, or especially jumping around, further forcing that stuff down in the lungs. As soon as you lie down, all that mucous starts spreading out in the lungs (a doctor can hear "crackling" in the lungs when she listens thru a stethoscope), which makes it tuff to take in a nice, full breath of air. This alone, could have additionally complicated all the other things he had going on.

(And of course, a PDR says benzodiazepines are contra-indicated when undergoing propofol administration.) http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 04:06 PM
Talking about the meeting back in 2007, I only caught that Ramone Bain was there and other names I don't know well enough to remember and type and the same time. LOL

Thundar
10-25-2011, 04:11 PM
Defense asked about a Tom Barrick and objection, sustained. Who is Tom Barrick.

Then Judge told defense they could move along to another question.

What does any of this have to do with Murray and his practice of home propofol dispensing?

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 04:14 PM
Dr. Tome'? objection, sustained, repeat, rinse

Thundar
10-25-2011, 04:16 PM
Dr. Tome'? objection, sustained, repeat, rinse

Dr. Tomoa(sp) MJ's manager, in meeting with the witness about MJ starting to go on tour.

A Dr. as in medical doctor? They did not say what kind of doctor.

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 04:17 PM
Still talking about meetings with MJ, his lawyers, body guards... In Sept. '08, And Dr. Tome' (spell?) was there too.

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 04:24 PM
Now going over the details of the contract for the tour. Mj wanted to do more shows than Prince had. Contract signed at MJ's house.

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 04:25 PM
Bunch of objections sustained over the ammount and ways that money would have been made.

Thundar
10-25-2011, 04:26 PM
First defense asked about AEG's stake in the 31 concerts, objection, sustained.

Defense then asks if he can tell what MJ's stake for the 31concerts would have been, objection, sustained.

Defense not getting anywhere that he wants to go.

Judge now called a sidebar....

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 04:26 PM
sidebar, think Chertoff is trying to sneak stuff in that isn't allowed.

Thundar
10-25-2011, 04:28 PM
Defense, did AEG pay for the Carrowwood place, objection, sustained.

Another sidebar........

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 04:29 PM
This is going to be a long direct exam, if it keeps up at this pace.

borndem
10-25-2011, 04:30 PM
Whenever the Judge sustains an objection, I wish the Judge could add, "but witness may answer since the Websleuths wanna hear it."

Know what I'm sayin'????? http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Thundar
10-25-2011, 04:31 PM
Whenever the Judge sustains an objection, I wish the Judge could add, "but witness may answer since the Websleuths wanna hear it."

Know what I'm sayin'????? http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

I would love to know the financial details of that contract. Is it in the contract someone posted in this thread?

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 04:31 PM
Whenever the Judge sustains an objection, I wish the Judge could add, "but witness may answer since the Websleuths wanna hear it."

Know what I'm sayin'????? http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

:rocker::great::rocker:

Credence
10-25-2011, 04:33 PM
Don't forget that the autopsy report showed chronic lung problems, which Dr. Drew, for one, said was probably the result of fluid building up in the lungs from lack of ventilation while Murray was putting him under. IIRC that was not mentioned by any of the state's experts, and thus is probably not in evidence, but if we are talking theories here...

Hello again :)

MJ's lung condition was caused by scarring. Not sure where Dr. Drew got that from. Many years ago MJ had pneumonia. The coroner also testified that any health issues he had other than the vitiligo were minor and none would be a contributing factor his death.

Just as an aside many talking heads have the facts in this case totally incorrect and Dr. Drew is one of them. jmo

Thundar
10-25-2011, 04:36 PM
Defense to Judge, should I stay away from the press conference altogether? (This is after 3 questions were objected and sustained).

Judge: yes that would be good, move on to another area.

Defense, so after the press conference........

This is so bad, I am laughing here, and I feel bad because I am laughing.

Credence
10-25-2011, 04:38 PM
First defense asked about AEG's stake in the 31 concerts, objection, sustained.

Defense then asks if he can tell what MJ's stake for the 31concerts would have been, objection, sustained.

Defense not getting anywhere that he wants to go.

Judge now called a sidebar....

Chernoff is attemtping to sneak in the financial portion of the contract and the Judge already had decided that financial issues would not be allowed in for either MJ or Dr. Murray. He also had ruled that the promotional video and discussion about it could not come in either. One of his earlier theories was that MJ committed suicide because defense believes he would not have been able to fulfill his contract and that the name of the tour "This is It" was because he knew he would not live. Really way out there speculation IMO

I sure don't think they want to open that door either. Dr. Murray was in deeper financial straits than MJ ever was including owning out more money than MJ which indicates he was definitely living beyond his means. He could pay $3,500 for a lap dance but couldn't pay child support? I have no respect for Dr M and it certainly goes far beyond what he is on trial for.

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 04:39 PM
Going over the conditions for extending the tour to 50 shows. MJ wanted an estate for himself and his children and the book of world records.... sorry I missed what that part was about....

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 04:41 PM
O/T I am going for a popsickle, can't type one handed :)

Thundar
10-25-2011, 04:41 PM
Going over the conditions for extending the tour to 50 shows. MJ wanted an estate for himself and his children and the book of world records.... sorry I missed what that part was about....

The book of world records was because no other performer had put on that many shows on a tour, it would be a record that probably no one would ever break.

outofstatelawyer
10-25-2011, 04:45 PM
Chernoff is attemtping to sneak in the financial portion of the contract and the Judge already had decided that financial issues would not be allowed in for either MJ or Dr. Murray. He also had ruled that the promotional video and discussion about it could not come in either. One of his earlier theories was that MJ committed suicide because defense believes he would not have been able to fulfill his contract and that the name of the tour "This is It" was because he knew he would not live. Really way out there speculation IMO

I sure don't think they want to open that door either. Dr. Murray was in deeper financial straits than MJ ever was including owning out more money than MJ which indicates he was definitely living beyond his means. He could pay $3,500 for a lap dance but couldn't pay child support? I have no respect for Dr M and it certainly goes far beyond what he is on trial for.

While I agree with you that Murray is a dirtbag, it was estimated that MJ was some $400 million in debt at the time of his death. I think that's a tad bit more than Murray.

Thundar
10-25-2011, 04:51 PM
Talking about a meeting in early June 2009 at Carrollwood with witness, promo guy, Murray, and a couple other people. The thing that witness remembers most was the high protein shake that Murray was going to fix for MJ.

Witness felt that Murray and MJ had a close personal relationship.

Talking with a performer's Dr. about protein shakes doesn't seem like something that a Promotion company would normally do. The stars do live in a wacky world, huh?

outofstatelawyer
10-25-2011, 04:51 PM
Hello again :)

MJ's lung condition was caused by scarring. Not sure where Dr. Drew got that from. Many years ago MJ had pneumonia. The coroner also testified that any health issues he had other than the vitiligo were minor and none would be a contributing factor his death.

Just as an aside many talking heads have the facts in this case totally incorrect and Dr. Drew is one of them. jmo

No, I think Dr. Drew had this one nailed. He is a "real" doctor, and he had the autopsy report in front of him. His pneumonia may have been brought on by propofol abuse in earlier years. As I posted elsewhere on these boards, at least one other nutty doctor admitted he gave MJ propofol in Europe somewhere when he was on tour.

peace9274
10-25-2011, 05:00 PM
I can't believe I have to leave in 15 minutes!! GRRR
I hope I won't be gone more than an hour.

I'm sure grateful to the transcribers here & will appreciate them even more so when I return.

Thundar
10-25-2011, 05:01 PM
Kenny Ortega sent witness an email talking about tough love and pulling the plug on the tour because MJ was not taking it seriously enough.

Witness said on their end they had no conversations about ending production of the tour.

Defense now asking about MJ's drug use. Finally got around to something that makes sense in this case.

Thundar
10-25-2011, 05:04 PM
WItness told Murray that MJ was seeing Dr. Klein. Williams told witness.

Is that not heresay? He told me, I told the other guy. But defense got it in that MJ was seeing Dr. Klein, so one point for them, a little itty bitty point though.

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 05:08 PM
So was CM taking credit for the protein shakes that CL was providing ? (sorry meant to ask this a ways back up the thread)

Credence
10-25-2011, 05:08 PM
While I agree with you that Murray is a dirtbag, it was estimated that MJ was some $400 million in debt at the time of his death. I think that's a tad bit more than Murray.

Sorry - I should have posted that as being relative to what is earned and what is owed. Dr. Murray was broke and this article says his house was in foreclosure but it has now been foreclosed. He owed $1.7M on the mortgage.

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-08-01/gossip/17930626_1_dr-conrad-murray-edward-chernoff-michael-jackson

His home near the 18th hole of a country club was in jeopardy. Property records show he had refinanced the mortgage at least three times in five years and owed close to $1.7 million on a property now assessed at $1.08 million. By the time the Jackson job came along, it had been months since Murray had paid the mortgage and foreclosure proceedings loomed, according to court records.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/08/local/la-me-conrad-murray8-2010feb08

Dr. Conrad Murray’s Las Vegas home has reportedly been sold at a foreclosure auction for $800,000.

http://www.zimbio.com/Dr.+Conrad+Robert+Murray/articles/SV3v1w3eUQz/Dr+Conrad+Murray+House+Sold+Foreclosure+Auction

Thundar
10-25-2011, 05:09 PM
Witness is now testifying what was said between Kenny Ortega and Murray. And what MJ told Murray who told Kenny Ortega.

You build the house, MJ will put the door on and paint it.....

It all sounds like a game a telephone.

Credence
10-25-2011, 05:10 PM
WItness told Murray that MJ was seeing Dr. Klein. Williams told witness.

Is that not heresay? He told me, I told the other guy. But defense got it in that MJ was seeing Dr. Klein, so one point for them, a little itty bitty point though.

I honestly wish Dr. Klein had been allowed to testify. I think anyone that gets sedation in a doctor's office would be a bit wobbly. I know I am when I leave the dentist's office. LOL

He still did not have demerol in his system at the time of his death and he saw Dr. Klein either Monday or Tuesday of the week he died.

All of the drugs found in his system at death were purchased, ordered and administered via Dr. Murray.

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 05:10 PM
Now have moved on to the day MJ died.

Thundar
10-25-2011, 05:13 PM
So was CM taking credit for the protein shakes that CL was providing ? (sorry meant to ask this a ways back up the thread)

They didn't say it that way, Murray was telling them about what all he was doing for MJ. THe protein shakes were mentioned.

But I would assume Murray took credit for protein shakes for MJ no matter if they came from the nurse or the chef, wasn't the chef making MJ drinks too?

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 05:14 PM
Asking if he talked to CM at the hosp. about what had happened. CM was in severe distress. Doesn't remember if he Cm spoke... afternoon break for about 20 mins.

peace9274
10-25-2011, 05:14 PM
OK Im gone, perfect timing!

Thundar
10-25-2011, 05:14 PM
Afternoon break until 2:35 California time.

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 05:17 PM
They didn't say it that way, Murray was telling them about what all he was doing for MJ. THe protein shakes were mentioned.

But I would assume Murray took credit for protein shakes for MJ no matter if they came from the nurse or the chef, wasn't the chef making MJ drinks too?

It seems old doc. M took credit for all of the good and none of the bad. GRRRR

To me it doesn't matter if MJ was a homeless man, addicted to street drugs, CM had a duty, and oath to do no harm..... rant off

Thundar
10-25-2011, 05:26 PM
It seems old doc. M took credit for all of the good and none of the bad. GRRRR

To me it doesn't matter if MJ was a homeless man, addicted to street drugs, CM had a duty, and oath to do no harm..... rant off

When the witness was talking about that meeting with Murray and the other people in my head I could hear Murray going on and on like he did in the LE interview. And then witness said what he got out of the meeting was that Murray was fixing MJ protein shakes, I started laughing. Murray forgot to mention all the propofol and other drugs he was also giving MJ cause I think the witness would have remembered those instead of a harmless protein shake.

Of course perhaps the witness would not mention the other because that would not make him and his company look very good either. But if those were mentioned I bet defense would have asked about them.

borndem
10-25-2011, 05:26 PM
First defense asked about AEG's stake in the 31 concerts, objection, sustained.

Defense then asks if he can tell what MJ's stake for the 31concerts would have been, objection, sustained.

Defense not getting anywhere that he wants to go.

Judge now called a sidebar....

Yep, Thurndar -- probably a little "Remember what we agreed, Mr. Chernoff?? Don't push it, buddy" type thing. grrrrrrr

This has already been discussed, as even we know, and ruled --> no discussions about the $$ or the contract, altho I sure would like to hear about the dough and the contract. Cherny knows this -- why risk pizzing off Hizzoner? This fine judge is having none of it.

And on another note -- anybody notice that poor ol' Flanagan seems like just another piece of furniture now?? Flan & Cherny don't speak enny more.... Will Flan ever get back to doing a direct examination or any active part of this trial???

borndem
10-25-2011, 05:33 PM
I can't believe I have to leave in 15 minutes!! GRRR
I hope I won't be gone more than an hour.

I'm sure grateful to the transcribers here & will appreciate them even more so when I return.


Same here, peace - I gotta go at 45 min past the hour. grrrr, too. Thanks to all for keeping a running tab for us who have more mundane things to do....

ges79
10-25-2011, 05:42 PM
A recap of Nurse Lee's testimony and an interesting excerpt below:

Murray's attorneys called their first witness on Monday. They hope to finish presenting their case on Thursday.

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-conrad-murray-trial-day-17,0,622365.story

Thundar
10-25-2011, 05:43 PM
Court is in session. Prosecution is on cross.

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 05:46 PM
Walgren is asking about MJ's talent and focus... And adding more shows. Going back over stuff in a more orderly fashion. IMO

Thundar
10-25-2011, 05:49 PM
Witness states that Murray told him MJ was in excellant health.

After the shaking at rehearsal Murray said he would take care of the problem. Murray told them to take care of the show, I am the doctor I will take care of MJ's health.

Prosecution is just doing housecleaning duties after defense.

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 05:51 PM
Last thing MJ said to witness was "you got me here, now I can take it from here" or close to that. Redirect....

Thundar
10-25-2011, 05:52 PM
Now defense on recross. Just want to clear up some dates.

Why, just why?

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 05:53 PM
Chertoff is trying to get in the lawsuit filed by KJ (I think, he is so hard to follow at times, imo)

Thundar
10-25-2011, 05:53 PM
Defense trying to get in about the insurance AEG had on MJ. objection, sustained. Now sidebar.

Sneaky, sneaky.

The last question was about AEG being sued.

21merc7
10-25-2011, 05:54 PM
IDK if this is the entire contract, but I just found this site:

http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/2011/03/29/michael-jacksons-agreement-with-aeg-a-contract-or-a-letter-of-intent/

and then this:

http://vindicatemj.wordpress.com/2010/04/28/mjagreement/


It looks like more of a breakdown of it all.

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 05:58 PM
Now Chertoff is trying to get witness to say AEG would never stop the tour,,,, objection, sustained, objection......

Thundar
10-25-2011, 06:00 PM
I missed some of this question and answer from defense but I think defense got out that MJ was responsible for all the production costs up to June 22, 2009.

It was objected and sustained. So no answer from the witness.

Did I hear that correctly?

peace9274
10-25-2011, 06:00 PM
OK Im gone, perfect timing!

I'm back ... thanx so much, all of you!

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 06:00 PM
Bringing up Dr. Klein again. Don't know what he hopes to get him to say other than what he has already said.

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 06:02 PM
I missed some of this question and answer from defense but I think defense got out that MJ was responsible for all the production costs up to June 22, 2009.

It was objected and sustained. So no answer from the witness.

Did I hear that correctly?

Yes, you did. :)

Thundar
10-25-2011, 06:03 PM
Mr Phillips is done. Not subject to recall. Another sidebar.

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 06:03 PM
Witness excused.

Credence
10-25-2011, 06:05 PM
Chernoff got really frustrated but he knew the topic of monies was out of bounds and even tried to get the lawsuit in

Thundar
10-25-2011, 06:05 PM
Yes, you did. :)

I wonder if that is true? If it is true then MJ was paying production costs, Murray's fees, and who knows what else. What exactly was AEG paying for. No wonder AEG didn't want KJ to see their contract.

Credence
10-25-2011, 06:07 PM
Next witness: Michael Henson -Clinical Lab Scientist / Forensic Toxicology

Thundar
10-25-2011, 06:08 PM
Michael Henson is the next witness.

Flannegan is standing up, here we go into LaLa land again.....

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 06:10 PM
O/T, but I am relieved to Flanagan up this round... sorry but Chertoff's frustration was getting to me.

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 06:11 PM
Going over urine sample testing...

peace9274
10-25-2011, 06:11 PM
Well, whatta ya know! Flannigan is still alive!

Thundar
10-25-2011, 06:12 PM
O/T, but I am relieved to Flanagan up this round... sorry but Chertoff's frustration was getting to me.

Total irony, Flannegan starts right out with the scene urine and the autopsy urine.

And of course the Lorazapam...

thumbtack
10-25-2011, 06:13 PM
O/T, but I am relieved to Flanagan up this round... sorry but Chertoff's frustration was getting to me.

I like it when Chernoff gets frustrated.

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 06:15 PM
I like it when Chernoff gets frustrated.

:floorlaugh: ;)

Thundar
10-25-2011, 06:16 PM
Well as facinating as I find the discussion of urine and Lorazapam I have to go home and fix food. Please do a summary for me so I can read it later, ok. Pretty please.

CarolinaMoon
10-25-2011, 06:30 PM
Another witness bites the dust!

Credence
10-25-2011, 06:30 PM
This guy is a toxicologist not an expert in pharmacokinetics. Anderson sad he wasn't either which is why Dr. Shafer answered those questions.

He served no purpose but did again help the state by confirming that the numbers reported by the defense was the total lorazepam including its metabolites not broken down as Dr. Shafer explained.

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 06:30 PM
Looks like another sidebar.

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 06:32 PM
What just happened??? LOL I take a quick potty break (tmi)

CarolinaMoon
10-25-2011, 06:35 PM
I can't believe that the defense never vetted this "expert" to answer the questions! TH's at KTLA are flabbergasted. So am I, for that matter. Some response for Dr. Shafer!

peace9274
10-25-2011, 06:36 PM
What just happened??? LOL I take a quick potty break (tmi)

The witness was through... no further questions.
Defense had no questions.

Judge called the attys up to the bench.

Then Judge realized the conference was going to take a little longer.

Jurors were then sent into "their room" for approx 15 minutes.

Devon
10-25-2011, 06:37 PM
A link to the entire contract between AEG and MJ (PDF) can be found about half way down this page: http://www.radaronline.com/category/tags/aeg

ges79
10-25-2011, 06:39 PM
What just happened??? LOL I take a quick potty break (tmi)


Did they adjourn for the day? I stepped away too and now there's an empty chair and no audio. :waitasec:

peace9274
10-25-2011, 06:41 PM
Did they adjourn for the day? I stepped away too and now there's an empty chair and no audio. :waitasec:

A 15 minute break, so Judge can conference with both sides.

ges79
10-25-2011, 06:42 PM
The witness was through... no further questions.
Defense had no questions.

Judge called the attys up to the bench.

Then Judge realized the conference was going to take a little longer.

Jurors were then sent into "their room" for approx 15 minutes.


Thank you for the recap for those of us who needed a break.

CarolinaMoon
10-25-2011, 06:46 PM
Again, from KTLA, there is the possibility that since this witness couldn't do the math on this, White may not be able to testify to them unless he is qualified to do those figures.

Apparently, if they can't get the judge to accept this witness as an expert in the field, they will be left with no defense. They must be begging the judge for a second chance. He is the foundation witness. Oy vey!

Credence
10-25-2011, 06:47 PM
Well Dr. White is their last hope for this DT

Credence
10-25-2011, 06:50 PM
Again, from KTLA, there is the possibility that since this witness couldn't do the math on this, White may not be able to testify to them unless he is qualified to do those figures.

Apparently, if they can't get the judge to accept this witness as an expert in the field, they will be left with no defense. They must be begging the judge for a second chance. He is the foundation witness. Oy vey!

This is really sad. Did they even interview ANY of their witnesses? And why didn't they have a proper expert?

CM deserves a refund :floorlaugh:

Henson is back for cross

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 06:50 PM
Again, from KTLA, there is the possibility that since this witness couldn't do the math on this, White may not be able to testify to them unless he is qualified to do those figures.

Apparently, if they can't get the judge to accept this witness as an expert in the field, they will be left with no defense. They must be begging the judge for a second chance. He is the foundation witness. Oy vey!

Oy vey is right. Wonder if this is part of the problems on the defense team (rumored anyhow) or as a result of those problems. Sheesh also wonder if this is a basis for appeal.

CarolinaMoon
10-25-2011, 06:52 PM
If convicted, I believe Murray would have an appellate issue. Ineffective assistance of counsel.

peace9274
10-25-2011, 06:53 PM
Back in session... Prosecution (Walgren) IS questioning the witness.

I'm sorry, I thought Hansen was through testifying.

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 06:54 PM
Back on. Cross exam.

Credence
10-25-2011, 06:54 PM
Back in session... DT (Walgren) IS questioning the witness.

I'm sorry, I thought Hansen was through testifying.

He is for the DT. Now he will testify for the state LOL

peace9274
10-25-2011, 06:58 PM
He is for the DT. Now he will testify for the state LOL


OOOps I'll correct it. Meant to say the state is questioning. GRRRR

:crazy: ( I think I'm going crazy with all the lab talk.)

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 07:04 PM
OOOps I'll correct it. Meant to say the state is questioning. GRRRR

:crazy: ( I think I'm going crazy with all the lab talk.)

Me too. What the heck was that?

peace9274
10-25-2011, 07:06 PM
Hansen is through testifying & may step down.

Sidebar... AGAIN!

Why, do you think, the Judge is wanting to speak to the attys again???

Credence
10-25-2011, 07:06 PM
OMG - did the DT use trickery and use the incorrect report?

Revised numbers on DT lab results just showing free lorazepam (as it should have been)

634 ng to 84ng (nannograms)- revised report -- dramatic decrease

Henson estimated the 84ng to be approximately 6.1 micrograms - .006 milligrams (actual free lorazepam) = 1/333rd of a single lorazepam pill

So much for MJ taking 8 lorazepam pills

Credence
10-25-2011, 07:08 PM
OOOps I'll correct it. Meant to say the state is questioning. GRRRR

:crazy: ( I think I'm going crazy with all the lab talk.)

Oh no -- I did not even notice that. I was saying that he will now testify for the state in jest meaning that the state will turn him into their witness. He did nothing for the DT. :crazy:

ETA: Don't think there will be more testimony -- they usually stop at 4PM PT and it is 4:09PT unless we are surprised.

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 07:09 PM
OMG - did the DT use trickery and use the incorrect report?

Revised numbers on DT lab results just showing free lorazepam (as it should have been)

634 ng to 84ng (nannograms)- revised report -- dramatic decrease

Henson estimated the 84ng to be approximately 6.1 micrograms - .006 milligrams (actual free lorazepam) = 1/333rd of a single lorazepam pill

So much for MJ taking 8 lorazepam pills

That is what it sounded like to me!!!

CarolinaMoon
10-25-2011, 07:09 PM
The prosecution only got the amended document this morning? OMG! It's called a discovery violation!

In all my years of trial watching, I have never, ever seen such a sloppy and unprepared defense.

These guys are making Jose Baez look good!

ges79
10-25-2011, 07:09 PM
Hansen is through testifying & may step down.

Sidebar... AGAIN!

Why, do you think, the Judge is wanting to speak to the attys again???

Maybe to discuss the next defense witnesses on the list for tomorrow?

peace9274
10-25-2011, 07:09 PM
OMG - did the DT use trickery and use the incorrect report?

Revised numbers on DT lab results just showing free lorazepam (as it should have been)

634 ng to 84ng (nannograms)- revised report -- dramatic decrease

Henson estimated the 84ng to be approximately 6.1 micrograms - .006 milligrams (actual free lorazepam) = 1/333rd of a single lorazepam pill

So much for MJ taking 8 lorazepam pills

BBM

Wasn't that established last week?????

peace9274
10-25-2011, 07:15 PM
Court adjourned until tomorrow morning.

Do you want me to recite the Judge's admonitions?

octobermoon
10-25-2011, 07:19 PM
Court adjourned until tomorrow morning.

Do you want me to recite the Judge's admonitions?

:floorlaugh:

ges79
10-25-2011, 07:19 PM
Court adjourned until tomorrow morning.

Do you want me to recite the Judge's admonitions?


:floorlaugh::floorlaugh: Think we could all recite them by heart. :crazy:

ges79
10-25-2011, 07:21 PM
Good night all and until tomorrow same time, different thread! :seeya:

Credence
10-25-2011, 07:41 PM
BBM

Wasn't that established last week?????

Yes but I thought sure the DT was going to try to counter it. They did not even come close. LOL :great:

See you all tomorrow.

Crosby87
10-25-2011, 07:52 PM
One of his earlier theories was that MJ committed suicide because defense believes he would not have been able to fulfill his contract and that the name of the tour "This is It" was because he knew he would not live. Really way out there speculation IMO

I watched a video of MJ that was recorded at his rehearsals in late June and heard him say something along the lines of " This is the final curtain".

borndem
10-25-2011, 08:12 PM
This guy is a toxicologist not an expert in pharmacokinetics. Anderson sad he wasn't either which is why Dr. Shafer answered those questions.

He served no purpose but did again help the state by confirming that the numbers reported by the defense was the total lorazepam including its metabolites not broken down as Dr. Shafer explained.

BBM
(all kidding aside for this remark)

Look how smart we all are now! We all know those words -- their meaning AND we can even spell 'em!

Thank you, good Dr. Shafer!

oceanblueeyes
10-25-2011, 08:23 PM
OMG - did the DT use trickery and use the incorrect report?

Revised numbers on DT lab results just showing free lorazepam (as it should have been)

634 ng to 84ng (nannograms)- revised report -- dramatic decrease

Henson estimated the 84ng to be approximately 6.1 micrograms - .006 milligrams (actual free lorazepam) = 1/333rd of a single lorazepam pill

So much for MJ taking 8 lorazepam pills

Whatta day ...whatta day.........whatta day!

If Flanagan had any credibility at all with that jury it just went out the window. Jurors dont like it when they think hinky things are going on.

The free lorazepam in MJ's stomach contents.

Revised numbers separating metabolites from free lorazepam:

Total lorazepam 634 ng to 84ng (nannograms) free lorazepam

Henson estimated the 84ng to be approximately 6.1 micrograms - .006 milligrams

Actual free lorazepam = 1/333rd of a single lorazepam pill

State test results: 1/43rd of a single lorazepam pill

I don't believe I have ever seen a DT get so beaten down in a case. They really are way out of the state's league.

As usual Walgren was masterful.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
10-25-2011, 08:27 PM
I watched a video of MJ that was recorded at his rehearsals in late June and heard him say something along the lines of " This is the final curtain".

He said 'this is it ..I mean this is really it.' After this tour at the time he wasnt planning on doing anymore tours.

If he had lived I think he would have changed his mind though since he knew he was in such high demand.

IMO

Crosby87
10-25-2011, 08:31 PM
They didn't say it that way, Murray was telling them about what all he was doing for MJ. THe protein shakes were mentioned.

But I would assume Murray took credit for protein shakes for MJ no matter if they came from the nurse or the chef, wasn't the chef making MJ drinks too?

The pharmacist who filled orders for Dr. Murray testified that Dr. Murray contacted him and requested him to make or find him some energy boost drinks samples and sent them to him.

The pharmacist said Dr. Murray called him back and placed an order for a specific energy drink.

oceanblueeyes
10-25-2011, 08:34 PM
Again, from KTLA, there is the possibility that since this witness couldn't do the math on this, White may not be able to testify to them unless he is qualified to do those figures.

Apparently, if they can't get the judge to accept this witness as an expert in the field, they will be left with no defense. They must be begging the judge for a second chance. He is the foundation witness. Oy vey!

I bet if White testifies to it he will depend on one of Dr. Shafer's computer software programs to come to his determination.

The DT didn't even turnover the SOP from this lab until the Wednesday before they went on break for 3-4 days. That is when the state knew their results were wrong.

And it seems it was Dr. Shafer that looked at the DT lab report and couldn't make heads or tails of it so that is why he told Walgren they needed to get the SOP.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
10-25-2011, 08:42 PM
This is OT but interesting.

Michael Jackson Tops Forbes List of Year's (2011) Highest-Earning Dead Celebrities

Read more: http://www.myfoxla.com/dpp/entertainment/michael-jackson-forbes-list-of-highest-earning-dead-celebrities-20111025?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter#ixzz1bqO4HtTk

borndem
10-25-2011, 09:01 PM
I can't believe that the defense never vetted this "expert" to answer the questions! TH's at KTLA are flabbergasted. So am I, for that matter. Some response for Dr. Shafer!

Now THAT'S what I call a Mountain and a molehill!!! I got back in time to see the last couple of questions for this guy -- he seemed nice enuff --but yeah, no match...



And let me say a big Thank You to the " -moon" folks and Thundar, Credence, and so many others for keeping me up-to-date while I went out to a meeting. I 'preciate it!http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif : http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

Crosby87
10-25-2011, 09:23 PM
I missed some of this question and answer from defense but I think defense got out that MJ was responsible for all the production costs up to June 22, 2009.

It was objected and sustained. So no answer from the witness.

Did I hear that correctly?


Yes, MJ was responsible for all production costs up to June 22nd and Chernoff quickly added that MJ didn't have insurance for something; could have been this, but I'm not sure.

borndem
10-25-2011, 09:28 PM
Again, from KTLA, there is the possibility that since this witness couldn't do the math on this, White may not be able to testify to them unless he is qualified to do those figures.

Apparently, if they can't get the judge to accept this witness as an expert in the field, they will be left with no defense. They must be begging the judge for a second chance. He is the foundation witness. Oy vey!


Oh pain, indeed!!! No match -- not even close, huh?!


Which brings to mind our eminent Dr. Shafer. Were we told where the PT found this perfect jewel? If so, I surely missed it. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif

I would love to know where they found this brilliant, wonderful and genuine physician and human being.

Methinks he has a fan club here at WebSleuths.... I'm one...

If anyone knows and has the time, thanks!

borndem
10-25-2011, 09:33 PM
Oy vey is right. Wonder if this is part of the problems on the defense team (rumored anyhow) or as a result of those problems. Sheesh also wonder if this is a basis for appeal.

I don't think so at this time. If the problems get much worse (izzat possible?), we could see some type of implosion right there in the courtroom.

Who recommended this pair to CM?

No pity here, however.

oceanblueeyes
10-25-2011, 10:24 PM
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/10/conrad-murray-judge-bars-jackson-concert-contract-as-evidence.html

“At every turn,” Deputy Dist. Atty. David Walgren said, “Conrad Murray through his attorneys have put the blame for his failures on Michael Jackson and this is just another attempt to do the same."

The judge agreed, saying that unless the defense could find witnesses who had heard Jackson say his anxiety was based in financial concerns, the contract was irrelevant.

“This is not a contractual dispute. This is a homicide case,” Pastor said.

AEG executive Randy Phillips is expected to take the stand Tuesday.

The judge said the defense could question him about the broad outlines of his relationship with the singer and his observations of his health and behavior in the months before his death.

Thundar
10-26-2011, 12:55 AM
Thank you everyone for all the summaries, I think I am caught up now. Defense dug a deeper hole and now they are pulling the dirt in on top of themselves.

It kind of scares me when a defense team seems so incompetent because of the last trial when I thought that and the jury did not see it the same way, defendant walked.

Thank you again.....See you tomorrow.

Talina
10-26-2011, 01:59 AM
Thanks everyone for posting. I was unable to watch most of the afternoon trial so I really appreciate the posts here.

:)

Talina
10-26-2011, 04:35 AM
I bet if White testifies to it he will depend on one of Dr. Shafer's computer software programs to come to his determination.

The DT didn't even turnover the SOP from this lab until the Wednesday before they went on break for 3-4 days. That is when the state knew their results were wrong.

And it seems it was Dr. Shafer that looked at the DT lab report and couldn't make heads or tails of it so that is why he told Walgren they needed to get the SOP.

IMO

It sure raised a red flag for me when Walgren brought out on cross examination that Shafer emailed the witness, requested SOP. Didn't get it. Ms. Brazil contacted witness requested SOP, didn't get it. Ms. Brazil contacts again and threatens to get the court involved, SOP is sent to her.

Now, why did it take threatening the court's involvement to get the SOP? If they didn't think they had anything to hide, why not send it promptly upon being asked to do so? Witness said he contacted Flanagan to let him know of the request so the defense team knew of this request. Yet, still nada until threats of getting the court involved.

Talina
10-26-2011, 04:37 AM
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/10/conrad-murray-judge-bars-jackson-concert-contract-as-evidence.html

“At every turn,” Deputy Dist. Atty. David Walgren said, “Conrad Murray through his attorneys have put the blame for his failures on Michael Jackson and this is just another attempt to do the same."

The judge agreed, saying that unless the defense could find witnesses who had heard Jackson say his anxiety was based in financial concerns, the contract was irrelevant.

“This is not a contractual dispute. This is a homicide case,” Pastor said.

AEG executive Randy Phillips is expected to take the stand Tuesday.

The judge said the defense could question him about the broad outlines of his relationship with the singer and his observations of his health and behavior in the months before his death.

I particularly like this comment from Judge Pastor:

Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor said details about the contract would distract jurors from their task of deciding whether the physician is guilty of involuntary manslaughter in Jackson’s death.

“It involves the fact finder getting taken on a side tour of accounting principles and law school,” Pastor said in denying a defense request to introduce the 42-page document as evidence during the testimony of promoter’s chief executive.

CarolinaMoon
10-26-2011, 06:48 AM
It sure raised a red flag for me when Walgren brought out on cross examination that Shafer emailed the witness, requested SOP. Didn't get it. Ms. Brazil contacted witness requested SOP, didn't get it. Ms. Brazil contacts again and threatens to get the court involved, SOP is sent to her.

Now, why did it take threatening the court's involvement to get the SOP? If they didn't think they had anything to hide, why not send it promptly upon being asked to do so? Witness said he contacted Flanagan to let him know of the request so the defense team knew of this request. Yet, still nada until threats of getting the court involved.

I have a feeling that this response by Flanagan and the last witness to the errors in the report and providing the SOP in a timely fashion could be a cause for the implosion within the DT, IMHO. I'm also wondering if they kept Chernoff in the loop when this was going on. If not, he was probably blindsided by what happened, again IMHO.

I was busy with my remodeling guy a lot and missed a detail. Is it clear that the prosecution only got the amended report the morning of the testimony and it was an original report with handwritten corrections? The defense had a corrected printed version which was not shared per discovery rules.

Then, Flanagan got up to examine the witness and it turned out he wasn't qualified to testify to the foundation evidence he was to bring in for Dr. White.

Did I get that right? :banghead:

If so, I'm watching the DT for new signs of implosion today. I have a feeling there might have been some :panic: ad :fireworks2: last night. Did anyone notice Murray's reaction to the debacle? He looked absolutely frantic.

Talina
10-26-2011, 07:23 AM
I have a feeling that this response by Flanagan and the last witness to the errors in the report and providing the SOP in a timely fashion could be a cause for the implosion within the DT, IMHO. I'm also wondering if they kept Chernoff in the loop when this was going on. If not, he was probably blindsided by what happened, again IMHO.

I was busy with my remodeling guy a lot and missed a detail. Is it clear that the prosecution only got the amended report the morning of the testimony and it was an original report with handwritten corrections? The defense had a corrected printed version which was not shared per discovery rules.

Then, Flanagan got up to examine the witness and it turned out he wasn't qualified to testify to the foundation evidence he was to bring in for Dr. White.

Did I get that right? :banghead:

If so, I'm watching the DT for new signs of implosion today. I have a feeling there might have been some :panic: ad :fireworks2: last night. Did anyone notice Murray's reaction to the debacle? He looked absolutely frantic.

I just spent the last couple of hours catching up on the video of the trial testimony from yesterday afternoon, including this last witness, Mr. Henson the toxicologist.

The corrected/handwritten page was from the original gastric content testing. It had "urine" on it instead of "gastric". The page provided to the prosecutors had a handwritten mark through "urine" and "gastric" was written in and initialed. The page shown into evidence by the defense did not have those corrections. Walgren was showing the witness both and asking of the timing of the correction, when the defense was provided the corrected one and if he could explain how the prosecution got the corrected one and not the original one. He had no explanation. So there is a question there about the timing of a corrected version versus their original report.

The report that prosecution just got the morning of the testimony yesterday was the 2nd testing that defense had done on gastric content to just show free lorazepam that did not include the metabolite. It was, as expected, a much lower number.

I am amazed that the defense puts these witnesses on the stand and doesn't seem to know what the answers to their questions are going to be ahead of time. It doesn't appear that they have been prepped at all and the defense just "thinks" they know what the answer will be and often times it is not.

Further muddying up the water was that the toxicologist was not qualified to answer questions Flanagan was asking him. I don't even think based on what happened yesterday that Flanagan even knew he wasn't qualified which just blows my mind. Flanagan's direct was cut very short once he discovered his witness had no formal training or education to be able to answer the types of questions he wanted to ask regarding therapeutic levels and didn't even do that type of testing. It is done by someone else (either inside or outside his lab) that he referred to as clinicians. Flanagan stopped his questions then and there. If he were my attorney, I'd be very angry. I just can't see how they can be so ill-informed about their own witnesses.

I've seen others opine that they see a basis for an appeal based on all of this but others have said no, since he has 4 lawyers. Who knows, but it's sure not making any of them look very experienced or at least not putting much effort and trial prep into this trial.

IMO

CarolinaMoon
10-26-2011, 07:49 AM
:clap: Thanks, Talina! I couldn't believe how fast Flanagan got shut down on direct! :doh:

TxLady2
10-26-2011, 08:33 AM
He said 'this is it ..I mean this is really it.' After this tour at the time he wasnt planning on doing anymore tours.

If he had lived I think he would have changed his mind though since he knew he was in such high demand.

IMO

Hi, Ocean. How are you feeling?

I believe I did hear him say this was the final curtain call, right after he said 'This is it.' I've watched that clip a thousand times.

I guess everyone agrees that the defense has so far not put on much of a case. If I were Murray I'd be pretty worried about now. The prosecution has done an excellent job!

oceanblueeyes
10-26-2011, 08:36 AM
Good Morning!!

It is obvious this jury is not a Pinellas 12 type jury. They already know the # for the evidence that has been entered. Even helping JP along yesterday. LOL! Now that is some kind of attentive jury.

So that means nothing is getting by them.

Mysteriously when one form is given to the defense and another form is given to the state and they aren't the same......antenias go up. Especially when it was brought out that this is the lab Flanagan has used for over 30 years. It gives the appearance that they may skew the results always in favor of the defense.

I am still astounded by the DTs strategy in this case. They are so ill prepared and frankly the state is very well prepared so the DT should know now that nothing is going to get past them.

I think what they decided to do was put Mr. Hensen on now so Walgren couldn't come back in rebuttal and spring it on the jury that the test was all wrong. At least this way it looks like they tried to correct the test. Sadly for the DT it was brought out though that it was Dr. Shafer that really knew the first test done by the DT couldn't be correct.

More and more it reinforces Dr. Shafer's credibility.

The real strategy they are using is just trying to put the victim on trial and that is not working out too well for them.

oceanblueeyes
10-26-2011, 08:44 AM
Hi, Ocean. How are you feeling?

I believe I did hear him say this was the final curtain call, right after he said 'This is it.' I've watched that clip a thousand times.

I guess everyone agrees that the defense has so far not put on much of a case. If I were Murray I'd be pretty worried about now. The prosecution has done an excellent job!

Morning!:seeya:

Slow go..real slow go..TxLady. Thank you for asking.

Yes, he might have said that. I thought about that after I had posted and do seem to recall him saying that. So terribly sad his life ended even before he could get to that final closing night. Don't you know that would have been an emotional time for him and all of his fans?

I saw Murray very stressed yesterday and hyperventilating! He has to know it is not looking good for him at all. I don't know what his DT has told him but I hope they have not filled his head full of unrealistic expectations.

IMO

Talina
10-26-2011, 08:49 AM
Excerpt from article about hearing yesterday regarding defense trying to get the AEG/MJ contract into evidence:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/10/conrad-murray-trial-hairdresser-among-witnesses-to-testify.html

"It is…imperative for the jury to review the Agreement to understand the stringent requirements that were placed on Mr. Jackson and to illustrate that, under the circumstances, the actions taken by Mr. Jackson on June 25, 2009 were not unreasonable," the lawyer wrote.

BBM - I find that extremely offensive that they are asserting without any evidence whatsoever that MJ committed suicide which is what I get from that comment quoted. Further, that suggests to me that this learned attorney apparently feels that there are certain circumstances that suicide is apparently not unreasonable to him. :maddening:

ETA: If that is the direction they were going with this contract and going to imply that without any evidence to support it, I'm even more glad that Judge Pastor denied their request.

momtective
10-26-2011, 08:51 AM
BAEZ on GMA right now giving legal analysis on Conrad Murray trial. :puke:

Talina
10-26-2011, 08:55 AM
BAEZ on GMA right now giving legal analysis on Conrad Murray trial. :puke:

Thanks for the warning. I'll be avoiding that channel on my morning channel surfing.

oceanblueeyes
10-26-2011, 09:25 AM
Thanks for the warning. I'll be avoiding that channel on my morning channel surfing.

I avoid Baez like I would the bubonic plague!:floorlaugh:

oceanblueeyes
10-26-2011, 09:30 AM
Excerpt from article about hearing yesterday regarding defense trying to get the AEG/MJ contract into evidence:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/10/conrad-murray-trial-hairdresser-among-witnesses-to-testify.html

"It is…imperative for the jury to review the Agreement to understand the stringent requirements that were placed on Mr. Jackson and to illustrate that, under the circumstances, the actions taken by Mr. Jackson on June 25, 2009 were not unreasonable," the lawyer wrote.

BBM - I find that extremely offensive that they are asserting without any evidence whatsoever that MJ committed suicide which is what I get from that comment quoted. Further, that suggests to me that this learned attorney apparently feels that there are certain circumstances that suicide is apparently not unreasonable to him. :maddening:

ETA: If that is the direction they were going with this contract and going to imply that without any evidence to support it, I'm even more glad that Judge Pastor denied their request.

It is all a smear campaign Talina and Judge Pastor knows that. He is no new kid on the block and thank goodness he isn't having any of it.

My gosh we have had witnesses talk about how excited and upbeat MJ was right before he died. But the DT can peer into their smoky crystal ball and know he was really contemplating suicide?? GMAB! This DT is so vile and disgusting in their smear tactics.:innocent::innocent:

IMO

Talina
10-26-2011, 09:33 AM
Beth Karas saying in IS that defense plans to call 5 character witnesses today. A hearing outside the jury presence to take place this morning before trial begins to go over exactly what character trait the defense intends to seek to introduce through these witnesses.

She also said that the defense has 2 more witnesses after these character witnesses: Dr. White and an addiction specialist. It is unclear whether or not either of these 2 would be available to testify today if the defense finishes with the character witnesses before the normal trial end time for the day. She said if Dr.White gets back in own in time, he will take the stand today. The addiction specialists has patients scheduled for the day and it is unclear if he can rearrange his schedule to testify today. We may not see either of these two on the stand until tomorrow.

She also said that it is unclear, until after this morning's hearing, what, if anything, the judge will rule that the character witnesses can testify to so what I take from this is we really don't know what to expect today at all. :floorlaugh:

I have to wonder why this type of hearing hasn't happened before now as to what the character witnesses testimony will be and if it will be allowed. Seems odd to me that this wasn't dealt with in a pretrial hearing.

Talina
10-26-2011, 09:37 AM
I'm so curious why they dropped Karen Faye from being called as a witness. I clearly understand why they change their mind about Dr. Adams. He was NOT going to be a good defense witness and has already had his lawyer out saying he was contemplating a civil suit against Dr. Murray for what he said about him in his police interview.

oceanblueeyes
10-26-2011, 09:39 AM
Beth Karas saying in IS that defense plans to call 5 character witnesses today. A hearing outside the jury presence to take place this morning before trial begins to go over exactly what character trait the defense intends to seek to introduce through these witnesses.

She also said that the defense has 2 more witnesses after these character witnesses: Dr. White and an addiction specialist. It is unclear whether or not either of these 2 would be available to testify today if the defense finishes with the character witnesses before the normal trial end time for the day. She said if Dr.White gets back in own in time, he will take the stand today. The addiction specialists has patients scheduled for the day and it is unclear if he can rearrange his schedule to testify today. We may not see either of these two on the stand until tomorrow.

She also said that it is unclear, until after this morning's hearing, what, if anything, the judge will rule that the character witnesses can testify to so what I take from this is we really don't know what to expect today at all. :floorlaugh:

I have to wonder why this type of hearing hasn't happened before now as to what the character witnesses testimony will be and if it will be allowed. Seems odd to me that this wasn't deal with in a pretrial hearing.

I wonder if the ADDICTION Specialist is none other than JVM!!!!!!!!!!!!:floorlaugh: J/K

I know and the DT just seems to run by the seat of their pants. This should have been ironed out a long time ago. Sheesh they had plenty of time to do that when the court was dark for days.

IMO

Talina
10-26-2011, 09:40 AM
I wonder if the ADDICTION Specialist is none other than JVM!!!!!!!!!!!!:floorlaugh: J/K

I know and the DT just seems to run by the seat of their pants. This should have been ironed out a long time ago. Sheesh they had plenty of time to do that when the court was dark for days.

IMO

OMG...I'll have to take a break and find something else to do if that is the case. :floorlaugh:

oceanblueeyes
10-26-2011, 09:42 AM
I'm so curious why they dropped Karen Faye from being called as a witness. I clearly understand why they change their mind about Dr. Adams. He was NOT going to be a good defense witness and has already had his lawyer out saying he was contemplating a civil suit against Dr. Murray for what he said about him in his police interview.

Well if they took the indicator on how past witnesses have hurt their case they may have decided to stop the bleeding. I have a feeling they knew Walgren would be ready for Faye to take the stand and once again a witness for the DT would be pulled over to the side of the state.

IMO

Talina
10-26-2011, 09:42 AM
I wonder what an addiction specialist can testify to since there hasn't been any foundation layed to this point that he could even testify to as far as I know. Seems that Walgren will be objecting as to relevance and judge sustaining quite a bit IMO.

oceanblueeyes
10-26-2011, 09:45 AM
OMG...I'll have to take a break and find something else to do if that is the case. :floorlaugh:

If that were to actually happen I may have to take a drink to endure it and I don't drink but maybe twice a year!:floorlaugh:

Just think about it.........an addiction expert who drives people to drink.:floorlaugh:

Talina
10-26-2011, 09:47 AM
If that were to actually happen I may have to take a drink to endure it and I don't drink but maybe twice a year!:floorlaugh:

Just think about it.........an addiction expert who drives people to drink.:floorlaugh:

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

oceanblueeyes
10-26-2011, 09:49 AM
I wonder what an addiction specialist can testify to since there hasn't been any foundation layed to this point that he could even testify to as far as I know. Seems that Walgren will be objecting as to relevance and judge sustaining quite a bit IMO.

It reminds me of the grief expert in the CA case who had never even talked to the defendant.:innocent:

How can he know what MJ would do when he has never laid eyes on him.

I hate these kind of experts who only generalize when each case is very specific according to the individual.

Maybe the state needs to come back on rebuttal and have their own expert testify why some doctors cave because of their own financial greed.:floorlaugh:

IMO

Talina
10-26-2011, 09:54 AM
It reminds me of the grief expert in the CA case who had never even talked to the defendant.:innocent:

How can he know what MJ would do when he has never laid eyes on him.

I hate these kind of experts who only generalize when each case is very specific according to the individual.

Maybe the state needs to come back on rebuttal and have their own expert testify why some doctors cave because of their own financial greed.:floorlaugh:

IMO

I know you were joking about that but on a serious note, do you even see a reason why the prosecution even needs a rebuttal case at this point? I sure don't. Unless the DT comes up with something substantive today or tomorrow I just don't see what the prosecution would even need to rebut.

oceanblueeyes
10-26-2011, 10:02 AM
I know you were joking about that but on a serious note, do you even see a reason why the prosecution even needs a rebuttal case at this point? I sure don't. Unless the DT comes up with something substantive today or tomorrow I just don't see what the prosecution would even need to rebut.

At the moment I do not see one reason for it.

They may have an expert to come back to clear up some of Dr. White's opinions.

IMO

borndem
10-26-2011, 10:06 AM
:clap: Thanks, Talina! I couldn't believe how fast Flanagan got shut down on direct! :doh:

BBM
From Talina's post and yours, C'Moon, it looks to me like (can you tell I'm from the South -- "it looks to me like" --??!!) the attorneys have essentially given up on their guy... They seem to be abandoning him although they are still showing up in the morning and questioning witnesses. Some degree of estrangement or something is there, I sense.

If this trial were a ball game, I would almost be ready to say the DT was intentionally throwing the game... but not quite yet. We'll see what happens on Wednesday... but CM is looking more and more alone to me. (Wishful thinking, perhaps?)

JMHO, of course...

Talina
10-26-2011, 10:16 AM
Sunny Hostin on IS right now and I swear...she makes my hair hurt to listen to her.

She says the defense witnesses have helped the defense. Then she says (when shown some replays from some of yesterday testimony) "oh that was significant for the prosecution", then when shown another clip, she says just the opposite. Then she said yesterday that she still believes the prosecution has proven their case beyond a reasonable doubt. She sure is covering all her bases so that whenever the verdict comes down she can say she called it...of course she did..she is on both sides of the fence constantly. Drives me batty to listen to her. :banghead:

Crosby87
10-26-2011, 10:18 AM
MJ was keeping regular daily appointments with Dr Klein which wiped him out too when rehearsals started. His security guards said MJ's speech was slurred after his visits to Dr. Klein.

Dr. Klein was allegedly giving MJ Demerol and none was detected in his body so I wonder if he gave the "King of Pop" propofol before he performed surgery on his face.

JMO but I don't know why Dr. Klein wouldn't give MJ Propofol at his office.

It seems odd to me that MJ would agree to go to London without Dr Klein there for follow-up.

In one video, MJ asked the cameraman to focus on his nose because his right cheek was wrinkled.

borndem
10-26-2011, 10:21 AM
Morning!:seeya:

Slow go..real slow go..TxLady. Thank you for asking.

Yes, he might have said that. I thought about that after I had posted and do seem to recall him saying that. So terribly sad his life ended even before he could get to that final closing night. Don't you know that would have been an emotional time for him and all of his fans?

I saw Murray very stressed yesterday and hyperventilating! He has to know it is not looking good for him at all. I don't know what his DT has told him but I hope they have not filled his head full of unrealistic expectations.

IMO

BBM

Good morning, ocean -- I hope your nights get better -- we all know, seriously, how ruff it is when we don't get enuff sleep...http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif

Wow! When the camera was put on CM for a while, sometime yesterday afternoon, I also noticed his chest rising & falling very quickly! So I decided to inhale & exhale when he did, and I got a bit light-headed (and not the kind I enjoy!!). Yes, he was hyperventilating. It was not during testimony, but during one of the little bench breaks when the camera really didn't have anything else it could show. His face looked about the same -- that kind of laid-back scowl, his brow was not particularly knotted, but his breathing was quick and not deep. He doesn't normally give us much idea as to what he's thinking -- or at least I can't read him -- but his breathing really showed me something. :sigh:

Talina
10-26-2011, 10:29 AM
MJ was keeping regular daily appointments with Dr Klein which wiped him out too when rehearsals started. His security guards said MJ's speech was slurred after his visits to Dr. Klein.

Dr. Klein was allegedly giving MJ Demerol and none was detected in his body so I wonder if he gave the "King of Pop" propofol before he performed surgery on his face.

JMO but I don't know why Dr. Klein wouldn't give MJ Propofol at his office.

It seems odd to me that MJ would agree to go to London without Dr Klein there for follow-up.

In one video, MJ asked the cameraman to focus on his nose because his right cheek was wrinkled.

There is no evidence or testimony that states MJ was having daily appointments with Dr. Klein. Where have you seen that to be the case?

Dr. Klein's attorney has even said that when his medical records, which both sides have, come into evidence we'll all see that what the defense has been saying is very far from the truth.

Crosby87
10-26-2011, 11:07 AM
There is no evidence or testimony that states MJ was having daily appointments with Dr. Klein. Where have you seen that to be the case?

Dr. Klein's attorney has even said that when his medical records, which both sides have, come into evidence we'll all see that what the defense has been saying is very far from the truth.

Yes there is. MJ's security guards testified in Court that MJ had regular appointments with Dr. Klein in June.
On Tuesday AEG President Randy Phillips told Dr. Murray MJ was seeing Dr. Klein and MJ refused to speak with RP on the phone after he saw Dr. Klein around June 20-25 2009.

I need to revisit Randy Phillips testimony but my understanding is MJ was seeing Dr. Klein during the day in June and he was being medicated during these visits.

M Air and Alberto both testified MJ's speech was slurred as a result of MJ's visits with Klein.

MJ rehearsals afaik were during the week and so were his medical appts with Dr. Klein.

Would it be illegal for Dr. Klein to give MJ propofol, and if so, why?

Rehearsing after you've had a surgical procedure on your face would be extremely painful and unadviseable imo so for this reason MJ wasn't really ready to perform.

JMO

borndem
10-26-2011, 11:11 AM
It reminds me of the grief expert in the CA case who had never even talked to the defendant.:innocent:

How can he know what MJ would do when he has never laid eyes on him.

I hate these kind of experts who only generalize when each case is very specific according to the individual.

Maybe the state needs to come back on rebuttal and have their own expert testify why some doctors cave because of their own financial greed.:floorlaugh:

IMO

:lol:Hmmmmm.......... methinks oceanblueeyes took a devilish pill :devil:instead of the Motrin this morning!! ..:cool: : :jester:

(I love it!!):giggle:
:aktion:

Talina
10-26-2011, 11:16 AM
It is a fact MJ had regular appointments with Dr. Klein in June because his security guards testified he did.
On Tuesday AEG President Randy Phillips told Dr. Murray MJ was seeing Dr. Klein and MJ refused to speak with RP on the phone after he saw Dr. Klein around June 20-25 2009.

I need to revisit Randy Phillips testimony but my impression was MJ was seeing Dr. Klein during the day in June and he was being medicated during visits.

Was it illegal for Dr. Klein to give MJ propofol and if so, why?

MJ rehearsals afaik were during the week and so were his medical appts with Dr. Klein.

Rehearsing after you've had a surgical procedure on your face would be extremely painful and unadviseable imo so for this reason MJ wasn't really ready to perform.

I don't disagree with you that he was seeing Dr. Klein. What I haven't seen is that he was seeing him on a daily basis. One of his bodyguards is quoted (but not confirmed as far as I know) as having said that at some point MJ was seeing Dr. Klein 3 times a week.

Dr. Kleins lawyer has gone on record on several news shows saying the medical records do not support that claim at all that he was seeing Dr. Klein 3 times a week in the months leading up to his death. Unless his medical records are brought into evidence somehow (and at this point in the trial I don't see how they will be) we'll never know the actual numbers of times, what was done or what medication he was given. Frankly, to me, it is a red herring from the defense team. Nothing was found in the toxicology reports that were any drugs outside of what Dr. Murray was giving to MJ.

Also, I don't think it has ever been alleged that Dr. Klein was giving MJ propofol. I think, IIRC, the allegations of drugs regarding Dr. Klein is Demerol.


IMO

Soulmagent
10-26-2011, 11:18 AM
I really do not understand at all why Dr Klien did not testify.

Not that they need him Murray is going to be found guilty.

C. Lee. said it was like a virus in that house. I really feel awful for her . She seems very upset by all of this.

outofstatelawyer
10-26-2011, 11:22 AM
It is my fervent hope that they sent Lauren Lake home. She needs to stick to doing kitchen remodeling shows. She is a know-it-all beyond all know-it-alls. Yuck!

Talina
10-26-2011, 11:23 AM
I really do not understand at all why Dr Klien did not testify.

Not that they need him Murray is going to be found guilty.

C. Lee. said it was like a virus in that house. I really feel awful for her . She seems very upset by all of this.

Judge Pastor ruled that Dr. Klein could not testify. The defense wanted to call him. From what I understand it is because after a review of his medical records, nothing he had prescribed or used on MJ during his office treatments were found in MJ's system at the time of death. It had been several days since he had even been to Dr. Klein's office.

The defense was wanting to try to bring in what all kinds of treatments that Dr. Klein had performed on MJ, pain meds, etc., and Judge Pastor ruled it was totally irrelevant to the event that occurred on June 25, 2009.

I could be off on some of that or missed some of the rulings. That is just based on memory from what I'd read as it was happening.

IMO

Soulmagent
10-26-2011, 11:28 AM
Judge Pastor ruled that Dr. Klein could not testify. The defense wanted to call him. From what I understand it is because after a review of his medical records, nothing he had prescribed or used on MJ during his office treatments were found in MJ's system at the time of death. It had been several days since he had even been to Dr. Klein's office.

The defense was wanting to try to bring in what all kinds of treatments that Dr. Klein had performed on MJ, pain meds, etc., and Judge Pastor ruled it was totally irrelevant to the event that occurred on June 25, 2009.

I could be off on some of that or missed some of the rulings. That is just based on memory from what I'd read as it was happening.

IMO

I know about the rulings ,I just dont really believe it is not relavent . I mean if his name had not come up in trial ever maybe ,but once he was mentioned you would think it opened the door for the jury to speculate so they would want him there. JMO.

Talina
10-26-2011, 11:32 AM
I know about the rulings ,I just dont really believe it is not relavent . I mean if his name had not come up in trial ever maybe ,but once he was mentioned you would think it opened the door for the jury to speculate so they would want him there. JMO.

If it were me on the jury and I'd heard this Dr. Klein's name come up as it has, I'd be expecting the defense to call him eventually. When he is not called, I'd probably then discount he really had anything to do with the death otherwise the defense would have called him. I'd probably not give any credence to it once the defense rest without offering any testimony from this doctor that they themselves kept bringing up.

Soulmagent
10-26-2011, 11:41 AM
If it were me on the jury and I'd heard this Dr. Klein's name come up as it has, I'd be expecting the defense to call him eventually. When he is not called, I'd probably then discount he really had anything to do with the death otherwise the defense would have called him. I'd probably not give any credence to it once the defense rest without offering any testimony from this doctor that they themselves kept bringing up.

Right. I agree .
The prosecution is who I meant should have called him. He could have ended alot of that tactic.
Conrad is guilty and I think the jury already made up there minds.

oceanblueeyes
10-26-2011, 11:41 AM
There is no evidence or testimony that states MJ was having daily appointments with Dr. Klein. Where have you seen that to be the case?

Dr. Klein's attorney has even said that when his medical records, which both sides have, come into evidence we'll all see that what the defense has been saying is very far from the truth.

Has it now morphed into everyday?

We can all see in This Is It that MJ had been receiving facial treatments from Klein.

MJ was back to looking more like the MJ of yesterday and didn't have to have plastic surgery to do it. That shows how good Klein is.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
10-26-2011, 11:44 AM
Right. I agree .
The prosecution is who I meant should have called him. He could have ended alot of that tactic.
Conrad is guilty and I think the jury already made up there minds.

The prosecutor wouldnt be the one to call him. He has nothing to do with the death of MJ.

The defense wanted to call him but Judge Pastor said there was nothing he could testify about as to what happened on June 25, 2009 when Murray killed MJ on propofol and benzos.

IMO

Talina
10-26-2011, 11:48 AM
Has it now morphed into everyday?

We can all see in This Is It that MJ had been receiving facial treatments from Klein.

MJ was back to looking more like the MJ of yesterday and didn't have to have plastic surgery to do it. That shows how good Klein is.

IMO

So it seems but I don't know how. :waitasec:

Velouria
10-26-2011, 12:25 PM
Sunny Hostin on IS right now and I swear...she makes my hair hurt to listen to her.
:banghead:

Mine too, Talina. :mad: Especially the way she says "CER-in-lee" instead of "certainly" in every other sentence.

Crosby87
10-26-2011, 12:37 PM
I don't disagree with you that he was seeing Dr. Klein. What I haven't seen is that he was seeing him on a daily basis. One of his bodyguards is quoted (but not confirmed as far as I know) as having said that at some point MJ was seeing Dr. Klein 3 times a week.

Dr. Kleins lawyer has gone on record on several news shows saying the medical records do not support that claim at all that he was seeing Dr. Klein 3 times a week in the months leading up to his death. Unless his medical records are brought into evidence somehow (and at this point in the trial I don't see how they will be) we'll never know the actual numbers of times, what was done or what medication he was given. Frankly, to me, it is a red herring from the defense team. Nothing was found in the toxicology reports that were any drugs outside of what Dr. Murray was giving to MJ.

Also, I don't think it has ever been alleged that Dr. Klein was giving MJ propofol. I think, IIRC, the allegations of drugs regarding Dr. Klein is Demerol.


IMO

MJ's security personnel had an office at the Ranch where they would record MJ's trips to-and-from the mansion so they know exactly when MJ went to Dr. Klein's office.

I would love to compare Klein's medical records with the security records.

MJ abandoned all the cautions he was given on the dangers of taking propofol and rejected the medical professionals advice. He refused to follow protocol and adhere to their guidelines.

MJ was determined to do things his way and he had NL stay overnight in order to be able to "prove" he needed the drug and win his case.

MJ and CM are both responsible for causing MJ's death.

MJ started taking propofol 6-7 times a week beginning in April 2009 so the high concentration of propofol found in his internal organs could be residual.

Seeing a doctor three times a week means MJ was under Dr. Klein's constant care in June and MJ's staff believed he was given drugs during his visits with Dr. Klein because his speech was slurred. MJs speech was impaired during his conversation on CM's Iphone that was recorded May 5 2009 and one of MJ's assistants said the degree to which his speech was impaired varied.

Therefore it is reasonable to assume Dr. Klein was busy performing medical procedures on MJ to prepare him for his upcoming tour when rehearsals began and he was taking propofol and Rx drugs from Dr. Metzger and Murray.

MJ wasn't cleared by Dr. Klein to go on tour and he has never stated his opinion on this.

I think MJ realized he had violated his contract with AEG in which MJ declared in writing he was fit to tour and he was misleading AEG and those who trusted him.

MJ had to cover production costs until the tour started and if he wasn't ready to perform, he was in big trouble.

I think Dr. Klein's treatment of MJ in mid June would make MJ unfit to perform because he needed time to rest and heal first and regain his strength.

Dr. Allan Metzger testified that Michael Jackson asked him for IV sleep medication a little more than a month before he died too and he prescribed him powerful drugs without following up with his patient either.

"and on that visit, I gave him Klonopin or trazodone, to be used not together."

http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/24/doc-i-warned-mj-about-iv-sleep-meds/

oceanblueeyes
10-26-2011, 11:14 PM
I don't think it is reasonable to believe MJ was using other drugs other the ones Murray said he prescribed and administered to him. This is backed up by the AR. The drugs just arent there. Nada but what Murray said he gave him.

If he was given a pain shot while getting treatments from Dr. Klein that could have left him still a little unsteady when he left. A lot of people are told they will have to have someone pick them up at a doctor's office because the meds given can make them woozy and they will be unable to drive home.

I do not believe MJ went to Klein's office everyday. In fact I read that Dr. Klein was not even in the office much in the month of May.

I think that MJ was very fit for the tour. The AR show he was a very healthy individual even at the age of 50. In Fact Dr. Rogers said he was more healthy than most his age.

What he did suffer from was insomnia. It is obvious that going on tours may have exacerbated his sleep problems with so much going on in his brain that it would not rest.

Some people seem to have the wrong impression of the AEG contract. The contract could not be canceled by just one side. It had to be agreed upon by both MJ AND AEG. AEG had no more control over the tour than MJ did and like Randy Phillips said they were never ever even close to the show not happening. AEG and MJ were totally together. Randy and MJ had a great upbeat chit chat the last night MJ went home after a fantastic rehearsal. The one that stopped the tour from happening is Conrad Murray.

He was not the one anyway that said he was fit. He had a full physical by a doctor from NY when the contract began and that doctor gave him a full bill of health.

In the criminal case only Murray is to blame. It was not MJ that talked/text/emailed for 47 minutes nor abandoned his patient by leaving him totally alone and even when finding the patient CM did not call 911. These failures belong to CM alone.

MJ did know what must be done. He clearly told Nurse Lee that a doctor would be there monitoring him. Never in his wildest imagination would he have known how wrong he really was when it came to this doctor who was more preoccupied with his ladies than upholding his Hippocratic oath to do no harm. MJ could have never foreseen these bizarre negligent/reckless actions by a doctor being paid $150,000 a month. I wish more than anything he could have known Murray was going to abandon him. I really do.

But if one must judge MJ then don't you think he has already paid the ultimate price for trusting Murray? He certainly paid a much higher price than the man who killed him ever will.:innocent:

amysmom
10-27-2011, 09:46 AM
But if one must judge MJ then don't you think he has already paid the ultimate price for trusting Murray? He certainly paid a much higher price than the man who killed him ever will.:innocent:

s&bbm

That's a FACT! :(

I haven't been able to watch too much of the trial but from what I've seen I'm really impressed with the male prosecutor (?) but most of all the Judge..He appears to be such a 'nice' man..He's always so pleasant & was so kind to Nurse CL..What's the majority sentiment in general re: him? Also, has he been fair to both sides or does he favor one over the other? TIA!

Talina
10-27-2011, 10:03 AM
s&bbm

That's a FACT! :(

I haven't been able to watch too much of the trial but from what I've seen I'm really impressed with the male prosecutor (?) but most of all the Judge..He appears to be such a 'nice' man..He's always so pleasant & was so kind to Nurse CL..What's the majority sentiment in general re: him? Also, has he been fair to both sides or does he favor one over the other? TIA!

Walgren is the prosecutor you are talking about and he is very impressive, IMO. Very professional with his questioning and excellent cross examiner.

Judge Pastor has run a tight ship with the attorneys and witnesses. I don't see any favoritism at all and he certainly is not allowing any showboating by either side. He does not allow any speaking objections and he will even ask the witness a question if he thinks the question or answer was confusing, just so he can make sure the record is straight.

oceanblueeyes
10-27-2011, 10:04 AM
s&bbm

That's a FACT! :(

I haven't been able to watch too much of the trial but from what I've seen I'm really impressed with the male prosecutor (?) but most of all the Judge..He appears to be such a 'nice' man..He's always so pleasant & was so kind to Nurse CL..What's the majority sentiment in general re: him? Also, has he been fair to both sides or does he favor one over the other? TIA!

Morning Amy,

I truly think Judge Pastor may be the fairest Judge I have seen in a case. Maybe it is because he is in LA and has dealt with high profile cases before.

He said very early on.. this case was not going to turn into a three ring circus and he has upheld that each and everyday in his courtroom.

He has the best demeanor even when I know he must be very frustrated at times. He never lets it show in front of the jury.

I think he has been fair to both sides. The problem he has continuously had to put up with is his prior rulings being ignored by the DT repeatedly.

He told both of them very clearly even starting in the pre-trial hearings this was not about other doctors, MJ or CM's financial or personal lives but it is about what happened in MJs bedroom on June 25, 2009 that caused the death of MJ.

As far as David Walgren well he is highly well liked and has been given rave reviews about how he has tried this case. He certainly is a masterful attorney no doubt and Ms. Brazil is very professional too.

As a side note. David even has a fan club on FaceBook!:floorlaugh:

amysmom
10-27-2011, 10:32 AM
Walgren is the prosecutor you are talking about and he is very impressive, IMO. Very professional with his questioning and excellent cross examiner.

Judge Pastor has run a tight ship with the attorneys and witnesses. I don't see any favoritism at all and he certainly is not allowing any showboating by either side. He does not allow any speaking objections and he will even ask the witness a question if he thinks the question or answer was confusing, just so he can make sure the record is straight.

It seems they picked the 'perfect' Judge & prosecutor..I'm glad cos MJ deserves nothing LESS! imho

amysmom
10-27-2011, 11:57 AM
Morning Amy,

I truly think Judge Pastor may be the fairest Judge I have seen in a case. Maybe it is because he is in LA and has dealt with high profile cases before.

He said very early on.. this case was not going to turn into a three ring circus and he has upheld that each and everyday in his courtroom.

He has the best demeanor even when I know he must be very frustrated at times. He never lets it show in front of the jury.

I think he has been fair to both sides. The problem he has continuously had to put up with is his prior rulings being ignored by the DT repeatedly.

He told both of them very clearly even starting in the pre-trial hearings this was not about other doctors, MJ or CM's financial or personal lives but it is about what happened in MJs bedroom on June 25, 2009 that caused the death of MJ.

As far as David Walgren well he is highly well liked and has been given rave reviews about how he has tried this case. He certainly is a masterful attorney no doubt and Ms. Brazil is very professional too.

As a side note. David even has a fan club on FaceBook!:floorlaugh:

Morning Ocean,

That's really kewl about David's fan club :)

Has he tried any other high profile cases I may know about?

I love the Judge's demeanor..They should ALL be like him. <sigh>

I don't like the defense team at all..They're more obnoxious then most IF that's even possible. :maddening:

amysmom
10-27-2011, 12:03 PM
TG! they stopped with the 'character' witnesses for the defense..What a big fat JOKE! I'm not even sure what the point was..I was really stunned when that patient went over to Murray & KISSED him on the forehead after he got off the stand..Whether the defense put him up to it or it was his own idea it never should've happened..I don't get where the bailiff was..I thought their job was to escort the witness to the door. :waitasec: