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Talina
11-01-2011, 11:36 AM
So...will this be the last day of testimony? Will Dr. Murray testify? We'll soon find out. :)




Links.




TMZ
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13173871051031


My Fox

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...p_131738713427


NewStar

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13173871808373

click2Hoston

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...173871975894ng

CNN

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13173872142345


Majicatl

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13173872342816

LA LOCAL TIMES.

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13179300346441

Upstream

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13179301284242

ABC local channel 7

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13179301490783

CarolinaMoon
11-01-2011, 11:37 AM
Thanks, Talina. A fresh new thread for what should be an interesting day! I'm not holding my breath that Murray will testify.

~n/t~
11-01-2011, 11:50 AM
What? No poll on guilt or innocence?

Been watching some of the trial coverage after work. Will the prosecution go for rebuttal? Do we go to verdict watch today? :rocker:

peace9274
11-01-2011, 11:56 AM
For the 3rd day in a row, the links here are not working.

Is it the same for everyone, or is it just for me?

I've been going to day 19 for links that work for me.

In case anyone else is having the same trouble,
here are some LINKS that seem to work ok.


MajicAtl.
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13173872342816 (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150211&v=1&libid=1317387045927&out=http%3A%2F%2Fmajicatl.com%2Fvideos%2Fmajicatl% 2Fwatch-the-conrad-murray-michael-jackson-death-trial-here-live-stream%2F&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fuse rcp.php&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20three.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fmajicatl.com%2Fvideos%2Fmajicatl% 2F...e-live-stream%2F&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13173872342816)


TMZ
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13184268344095 (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150800&v=1&libid=1318426669028&out=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.viglink.com%2Fapi%2Fclick%3Ff ormat%3Dgo%26drKey%3D910%26loc%3Dhttp%253A%252F%25 2Fwww.websleuths.com%252Fforums%252Fshowthread.php %253Ft%253D150211%26v%3D1%26libid%3D1317387045927% 26out%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.tmz.com%252F%26ref% 3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.websleuths.com%252Fforums %252Fusercp.php%26title%3DConrad%2520Murray%2520tr ial%2520-Day%2520three.%2520-%2520Websleuths%2520Crime%2520Sleuthing%2520Commun ity%26txt%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.tmz.com%252F%26 jsonp%3Dvglnk_jsonp_13173871051031&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Ffor umdisplay.php%3Ff%3D462&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20nine.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.viglink.com%2Fapi%2Fclick%3Ff or...13173871051031&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13184268344095)


My Fox
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...p_131738713427 (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150211&v=1&libid=1317387045927&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.myfoxphoenix.com%2Fdpps%2Fnew s%2Fjustice%2Fconrad-murray-michael-jackson-doctor-trial-app_15219744&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fuse rcp.php&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20three.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.myfoxphoenix.com%2Fdpps%2Fnew ...l-app_15219744&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_131738713427)


News star.
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13173871808373 (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150211&v=1&libid=1317387045927&out=http%3A%2F%2Fnewstaar.com%2Fwatch-streaming-live-video-dr-conrad-murray-trial-in-michael-jackson-doctor-case-%25e2%2580%2593-opening-statement-as-trial-begins-today%2F354326%2F&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fuse rcp.php&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20three.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fnewstaar.com%2Fwatch-streaming-...-today%2F354326%2F&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13173871808373)


Click2Houston
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...173871975894ng (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150211&v=1&libid=1317387045927&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.click2houston.com%2Fvideo%2F2 9313639%2Findex.html&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fuse rcp.php&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20three.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.click2houston.com%2Fvideo%2F2 9313639%2Findex.html&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13173871975894ng)


CNN
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13184269652286 (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150800&v=1&libid=1318426669028&out=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.viglink.com%2Fapi%2Fclick%3Ff ormat%3Dgo%26drKey%3D910%26loc%3Dhttp%253A%252F%25 2Fwww.websleuths.com%252Fforums%252Fshowthread.php %253Ft%253D150211%26v%3D1%26libid%3D1317387045927% 26out%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.cnn.com%252Fvideo%2 52F%26ref%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.websleuths.com% 252Fforums%252Fusercp.php%26title%3DConrad%2520Mur ray%2520trial%2520-Day%2520three.%2520-%2520Websleuths%2520Crime%2520Sleuthing%2520Commun ity%26txt%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.cnn.com%252Fvid eo%252F%26jsonp%3Dvglnk_jsonp_13173872142345&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Ffor umdisplay.php%3Ff%3D462&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20nine.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.viglink.com%2Fapi%2Fclick%3Ff or...13173872142345&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13184269652286)


LA LOCAL TIMES.
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13179300346441 (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150702&v=1&libid=1317929514163&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.latimes.com%2Fnews%2Flocal%2F michael-jackson-trial%2F&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150702%26page%3D3&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20eight.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.latimes.com%2Fnews%2Flocal%2F mi...jackson-trial%2F&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13179300346441)


Upstream
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13179301284242 (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150702&v=1&libid=1317929514163&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ustream.tv%2Fconradmurraytria l%23utm_campaign%3Dsynclickback%26source%3Dhttp%3A %2F%2Fwww.mediaite.com%2Fonline%2Fwatch-dr-conrad-murray-trial-via-live-stream%2F%26medium%3D9407213&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150702%26page%3D3&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20eight.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ustream.tv%2Fconradmurraytr.. .medium%3D9407213&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13179301284242)


ABC Local channel seven
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...13179301490783 (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&drKey=910&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150702&v=1&libid=1317929514163&out=http%3A%2F%2Fabclocal.go.com%2Fkabc%2Flivenow% 3Fid%3D8366366&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.websleuths.com%2Fforums%2Fsho wthread.php%3Ft%3D150702%26page%3D3&title=Conrad%20Murray%20trial%20-Day%20eight.%20-%20Websleuths%20Crime%20Sleuthing%20Community&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fabclocal.go.com%2Fkabc%2Flivenow% 3Fid%3D8366366&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13179301490783)


ITUNE link.
http://www.apple.com/itunes/affiliat.../?id=4643224 (http://www.apple.com/itunes/affiliates/download/?id=464322481)

CarolinaMoon
11-01-2011, 11:58 AM
Nothing yet. It was supposed to start at 8:30 with Murray saying whether or not he will testify. Something is holding up the works! Wonder what it is. Listening to IS for a clue.

Thundar
11-01-2011, 11:58 AM
Here is cnn/live.

http://http://www.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=stream1

When it loads go to the second tab and click on Conrad Murray trial.

bravowhisky
11-01-2011, 12:00 PM
I think Judge Pastor said the proceedings would start at 9:30. CM had to decide about testifying by 8:30.

CarolinaMoon
11-01-2011, 12:02 PM
They are going through the exhibits and the judge is already in a bad mood. The exhibits are all out of order! Both sides will have a chance to challenge the exhibits.

bravowhisky
11-01-2011, 12:04 PM
They are going through the exhibits and the judge is already in a bad mood. The exhibits are all out of order! Both sides will have a chance to challenge the exhibits.

Wait, did it start and my stream is messed up?

peace9274
11-01-2011, 12:05 PM
Talking Head at HLN:

"For an attorney, the only thing scarier than your client taking the stand is...
your client NOT taking the stand."

Thundar
11-01-2011, 12:05 PM
They are going through the exhibits and the judge is already in a bad mood. The exhibits are all out of order! Both sides will have a chance to challenge the exhibits.

cnn/live has not started broadcast yet. I wonder what's up with that?

peace9274
11-01-2011, 12:07 PM
Here is cnn/live.

http://http://www.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=stream1

When it loads go to the second tab and click on Conrad Murray trial.

For those having trub with TMZ, their live stream screen for the CM Trial, is up & showing the great seal at this time.

Looks like they're ready today.

http://www.tmz.com/

ges79
11-01-2011, 12:09 PM
cnn/live has not started broadcast yet. I wonder what's up with that?

I'm using this link (below) and there is nothing showing on the feed yet.
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/livenow?id=8366366

Thundar
11-01-2011, 12:13 PM
What? No poll on guilt or innocence?

Been watching some of the trial coverage after work. Will the prosecution go for rebuttal? Do we go to verdict watch today? :rocker:

Well I vote guilty and wish there was a different charge to vote more guilty on after hearing testimony.

The prosecution almost has to go for a rebuttal on graphgate, the 911 call (how easy it would have been to make), and to drive home the standard of care violations.

I wonder how long the jury will deliberate?

Talina
11-01-2011, 12:15 PM
For the 3rd day in a row, the links here are not working.

Is it the same for everyone, or is it just for me?

I've been going to day 19 for links that work for me.

In case anyone else is having the same trouble,
here are some LINKS that seem to work ok[B].Snipped for space

Thanks Peace. I was having trouble with them too the past week or so. I thought it was just my computer acting up.

I even just now tried to copy them over from the first week of the trial to see if that would work. They work on those days (I just now tested them) but as soon as I copy them over, they don't so I have no idea what is going on with them.

octobermoon
11-01-2011, 12:17 PM
I also vote guilty. And I agree with Thundar, there should have been more to charge him with. :(

peace9274
11-01-2011, 12:17 PM
Thanks Peace. I was having trouble with them too the past week or so. I thought it was just my computer acting up.

I even just now tried to copy them over from the first week of the trial to see if that would work. They work on those days (I just now tested them) but as soon as I copy them over, they don't so I have no idea what is going on with them.


Are the links I posted above working for you?

Isabelle
11-01-2011, 12:21 PM
Well I vote guilty and wish there was a different charge to vote more guilty on after hearing testimony.

The prosecution almost has to go for a rebuttal on graphgate, the 911 call (how easy it would have been to make), and to drive home the standard of care violations.

I wonder how long the jury will deliberate?

I don't think it will be very long for the jury.

peace9274
11-01-2011, 12:22 PM
cnn/live has not started broadcast yet. I wonder what's up with that?

Judge Pastor said yesterday, at the end of court, that today's court session would begin at 9:30 am.

I also read/heard that CM has until 11:30 am PST today, to decide & inform the court if he'll testify.


ETA: 5 minutes to showtime.

Talina
11-01-2011, 12:23 PM
Are the links I posted above working for you?

Yes. Thanks!!!

CarolinaMoon
11-01-2011, 12:24 PM
Wait, did it start and my stream is messed up?

Report from IS, sorry about that. Jury isn't in so there is no live stream yet.

Thundar
11-01-2011, 12:28 PM
Judge Pastor said yesterday, at the end of court, that today's court session would begin at 9:30 am.

I also read/heard that CM has until 11:30 am PST today, to decide & inform the court if he'll testify.


ETA: 5 minutes to showtime.

Geez, they are barely going to start and it will be lunch time here. Then I will have to watch it on InSessions were there are more commercials than actual trial. Bummer!

peace9274
11-01-2011, 12:29 PM
Judge Pastor said yesterday, at the end of court, that today's court session would begin at 9:30 am.

I also read/heard that CM has until 11:30 am PST today, to decide & inform the court if he'll testify.


ETA: 5 minutes to showtime.

Beth K is now stating, on InSession, that the Judge will ask CM before the jurors
come into the courtroom, whether he, CM, has made a decision to take the stand...
and expects him to have an answer at that time.

Thundar
11-01-2011, 12:32 PM
Here we go. Court is in session.

peace9274
11-01-2011, 12:33 PM
Geez, they are barely going to start and it will be lunch time here. Then I will have to watch it on InSessions were there are more commercials than actual trial. Bummer!

If you have a smartphone, the itunes link and one of the other links,
have live stream apps to down load, so you can watch the trial on your mobile phone.

Credence
11-01-2011, 12:33 PM
What? No poll on guilt or innocence?

Been watching some of the trial coverage after work. Will the prosecution go for rebuttal? Do we go to verdict watch today? :rocker:

Good afternoon all xx :)

Court in session

Dr. Ornelas is supposed to testify as to her charts today.

Also heard Walgren will call Dr. Shafer for a brief rebuttal

Credence
11-01-2011, 12:38 PM
HarveyLevinTMZ Harvey Levin
Just published story...Chernoff and Flanagan split over whether Murray should testify..Chernoff doesn't want him to ...Flanagan does...


TMZ TMZ
Should Conrad Murray take the stand? His lawyers are split over whether it would help him or hurt him http://bit.ly/tDEelJ

Credence
11-01-2011, 12:41 PM
Dr. Conrad Murray's lawyers are split over whether the doc should take the stand in his own defense ... TMZ has learned.

Sources connected with the case tell TMZ Ed Chernoff is adamant -- he does NOT want Murray to testify because he would be crucified on cross-examination.

Michael Flanagan feels the opposite -- that Murray MUST take the stand because without his testimony the jury will convict him.

We're told Murray will defer to his lawyers, but Murray and Chernoff are joined at the hip and it's almost certain the doc will follow his lead. Besides, Chernoff is the lead counsel and when push comes to shove -- he wins.

Our 2 cents -- Murray testifying would be a disaster for the defense.

http://www.tmz.com/2011/11/01/conrad-murray-trial-split-over-murray-testifying/

octobermoon
11-01-2011, 12:41 PM
HarveyLevinTMZ Harvey Levin
Just published story...Chernoff and Flanagan split over whether Murray should testify..Chernoff doesn't want him to ...Flanagan does...


TMZ TMZ
Should Conrad Murray take the stand? His lawyers are split over whether it would help him or hurt him http://bit.ly/tDEelJ

This is the one time I hope Flanagan wins. :crazy: :innocent:

Thundar
11-01-2011, 12:41 PM
Flannegan is back to the graphs again. He is asking about free Lorazapam in the stomach at autopsy. Is this not outside the scope of this experts area of expertise?

Was it not established yesterday that witness was not an expert in graphs? LOL

Talina
11-01-2011, 12:44 PM
Flannegan is back to the graphs again. He is asking about free Lorazapam in the stomach at autopsy. Is this not outside the scope of this experts area of expertise?

Was it not established yesterday that witness was not an expert in graphs? LOL

:floorlaugh: Well he seems to be able to answer Flanagan's questions about them but he has a memory dump when Walgren asks him questions.

Talina
11-01-2011, 12:48 PM
I don't know what is normal for these types of graphs but a 50% variability seems awfully high to me.

Thundar
11-01-2011, 12:49 PM
Flannegan is trying to straighten out the graph that was proven to be based on the wrong data. He is doing hypotheticals on the graph. You (general you) gotta give witness some credit, he just keeps on trying to act like he knows what he is doing and tries to talk to the jury. I wonder what faces he sees when he looks at the jury? Perhaps bored, skeptical, or just frustrated.

Talina
11-01-2011, 12:50 PM
Wait...I don't remember Dr. Shafer saying that CM added Lidocaine to the 100ml bottle of propofol. Did he?

Thundar
11-01-2011, 12:52 PM
I don't know what is normal for these types of graphs but a 50% variability seems awfully high to me.

I was thinking about that and I wonder if it is because they are simulations run without complete data. They aren't based on any facts of when drugs were given, or even the amount. They are based on Murray's LE interviews which perhaps are true or not. So + - 50% is the best they can do. It blows my mind that these professionals can testify on these graphs though and no one has pointed out what that + - 50% means.

Credence
11-01-2011, 12:54 PM
I don't know what is normal for these types of graphs but a 50% variability seems awfully high to me.

I agree. Don't understand that either. :confused:

Credence
11-01-2011, 12:55 PM
Wait...I don't remember Dr. Shafer saying that CM added Lidocaine to the 100ml bottle of propofol. Did he?

He did not. The only time Dr. Shafer mentioned lidocaine was mixing it in the syringe with the propofol and said according to Murray's interview he mixed it 1:1

Talina
11-01-2011, 12:55 PM
I was thinking about that and I wonder if it is because they are simulations run without complete data. They aren't based on any facts of when drugs were given, or even the amount. They are based on Murray's LE interviews which perhaps are true or not. So + - 50% is the best they can do. It blows my mind that these professionals can testify on these graphs though and no one has pointed out what that + - 50% means.

I wonder if Dr. Shafer will comment on that. I don't recall what variable % his models had on them.

Thundar
11-01-2011, 12:57 PM
I wonder if Dr. Shafer will comment on that. I don't recall what variable % his models had on them.

When Walgren did his cross I tried to see if the graphs from Dr. Shafer had any variables and they didn't show them if they were there. The camera angle just showed the graph and no legend.

outofstatelawyer
11-01-2011, 12:58 PM
"Standard of care is the ideal" -- Paul White

Yeah, the ideal if you want to keep your medical license and your butt out of jail.

Talina
11-01-2011, 01:00 PM
Walgren can blow all the DT theories out of the water on his closing. To believe any of their scenarios, MJ would have just been running around at will with an IV portal in his left knee, condom catheter, rolling an IV pole, taking his oral medications whenever he felt like another dosage..and oh by the way - toss in a bolus of propofol that CM just was thoughtful enough to leave there for him. All of this without CM noticing something was awry. Alrighty then. And during all of this time, where was his doctor?

Credence
11-01-2011, 01:01 PM
This is the tox report for propofol found in MJ's system.

I still do not understand why the urine would be used to determine how much propofol was given since once your heart stops beating or blood is no longer circulating it would never reach the urine. The blood levels are much higher which is what Dr. Shafer used to determine that more than 25/50mg had been administered. I hope Dr. Shafer explains it during rebuttal.

http://dearconradmurray.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Page50-Toxicology-Report-Summary2.jpg

Talina
11-01-2011, 01:02 PM
This is the tox report for propofol found in MJ's system.

I still do not understand why the urine would be used to determine how much propofol was given since once your heart stops beating or blood is no longer circulating it would never reach the urine. The blood levels are much higher which is what Dr. Shafer used to determine that more than 25/50mg had been administered. I hope Dr. Shafer explains it during rebuttal.

http://dearconradmurray.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Page50-Toxicology-Report-Summary2.jpg

I've wondered the same thing. How could a bolus of propofol that cause his near immediate death also simultaneously show up in his urine???

Credence
11-01-2011, 01:03 PM
Walgren can blow all the DT theories out of the water on his closing. To believe any of their scenarios, MJ would have just been running around at will with an IV portal in his left knee, condom catheter, rolling an IV pole, taking his oral medications whenever he felt like another dosage..and oh by the way - toss in a bolus of propofol that CM just was thoughtful enough to leave there for him. All of this without CM noticing something was awry. Alrighty then. And during all of this time, where was his doctor?

When this trial is over, I expect to see this skit on SNL.

borndem
11-01-2011, 01:03 PM
Thanks Peace. I was having trouble with them too the past week or so. I thought it was just my computer acting up.

I even just now tried to copy them over from the first week of the trial to see if that would work. They work on those days (I just now tested them) but as soon as I copy them over, they don't so I have no idea what is going on with them.
Same here - I kept getting a msg. about "portal not open" or similar. But earlier ones do work for me.

Credence
11-01-2011, 01:04 PM
I've wondered the same thing. How could a bolus of propofol that cause his near immediate death also simultaneously show up in his urine???

Exactly - it would still have to metabolize and it couldn't if no circulation. Just does not make sense to me unless I am missing something

octobermoon
11-01-2011, 01:05 PM
Why are we even hearing about Ambien? There was no Ambien in MJ's system. GRRRR

outofstatelawyer
11-01-2011, 01:05 PM
Oh Geez, White said he has "no experience" with Ambien, and now Flanagan is asking him a series of questions about Ambien...wasting time, anyone?

Credence
11-01-2011, 01:08 PM
Oh Geez, White said he has "no experience" with Ambien, and now Flanagan is asking him a series of questions about Ambien...wasting time, anyone?

In an attempt to just confuse this jury. I was happy to hear that a juror has biochemistry background.

borndem
11-01-2011, 01:10 PM
Judge Pastor said yesterday, at the end of court, that today's court session would begin at 9:30 am.

I also read/heard that CM has until 11:30 am PST today, to decide & inform the court if he'll testify.


ETA: 5 minutes to showtime.
This is my first trial in Calif - (again, I must say -->) In NC, we have always watched that exchange on a live feed. Asked and answered, in front of the jury. Also, CM could have told them that he wouldn't, but he can always respond, "Yes, I will Your Honor," when he's asked. Then we'll all need a dose of lorazepam and sound-proof rooms!!!!!!!!!!

Here's to arrogance for CM!!!!

Credence
11-01-2011, 01:10 PM
Recross -- no questions by Walgren -- finally.......

Judge requested to see counsel

I understand CM has to make up his mind about testifying by 11AMPT (which is about 40 minutes I believe)

octobermoon
11-01-2011, 01:10 PM
Dr. White is excused.

peace9274
11-01-2011, 01:12 PM
What dose are they using for ativan in this scenario? I've given ativan / lorazapam a zillion times when a psych patient complains of being "up-tight", anxious, and when s/he are totally "out of control."

The state of sedation, regardless of pt's state prior to giving the med, varies widely.

Some patients go into a very deep sleep, with loud noises & other stimulation close by.. they sleep right through it.

Other patients are not affected at all by a 2 mg injection of ativan/lorazapam

ges79
11-01-2011, 01:13 PM
Break time. JP says they have matters to discuss.

octobermoon
11-01-2011, 01:13 PM
I bet this jury is getting tired of being "poptarts" to quote HHJP from the Anthony trial.

Isabelle
11-01-2011, 01:14 PM
This is the tox report for propofol found in MJ's system.

I still do not understand why the urine would be used to determine how much propofol was given since once your heart stops beating or blood is no longer circulating it would never reach the urine. The blood levels are much higher which is what Dr. Shafer used to determine that more than 25/50mg had been administered. I hope Dr. Shafer explains it during rebuttal.

http://dearconradmurray.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Page50-Toxicology-Report-Summary2.jpg

The only reason I can see for Propofol to be higher in the blood than the urine is that Michael was dead and the Propofol continued to infuse. Urine levels of drugs in a live person would indicate what the blood level WAS at a time prior to urine production, not what it is while the urine is in the bladder.

Isabelle
11-01-2011, 01:16 PM
I've wondered the same thing. How could a bolus of propofol that cause his near immediate death also simultaneously show up in his urine???

It wouldn't.

Credence
11-01-2011, 01:17 PM
The only reason I can see for Propofol to be higher in the blood than the urine is that Michael was dead and the Propofol continued to infuse. Urine levels of drugs in a live person would indicate what the blood level WAS at a time prior to urine production, not what it is while the urine is in the bladder.

Thanks Izzy. Dr. Shafer basically said the same thing. He said the blood levels were higher because it was a drip and the med continued to flow. The blood levels are what convinced him that a drip was used along with Murray's statements.

Isabelle
11-01-2011, 01:17 PM
The only reason I can see for Propofol to be higher in the blood than the urine is that Michael was dead and the Propofol continued to infuse. Urine levels of drugs in a live person would indicate what the blood level WAS at a time prior to urine production, not what it is while the urine is in the bladder.

ETA: How well the kidneys are functioning would be a factor.

peace9274
11-01-2011, 01:18 PM
Walgren can blow all the DT theories out of the water on his closing. To believe any of their scenarios, MJ would have just been running around at will with an IV portal in his left knee, condom catheter, rolling an IV pole, taking his oral medications whenever he felt like another dosage..and oh by the way - toss in a bolus of propofol that CM just was thoughtful enough to leave there for him. All of this without CM noticing something was awry. Alrighty then. And during all of this time, where was his doctor?

And because of the IV propofol dripping into his body, that CM started, MJ would be under heavy sedation.

Which means he would be doing all of the above which you described... while heavy, deep sleep-walking.

Credence
11-01-2011, 01:18 PM
Break time. JP says they have matters to discuss.

Will probably know by end of break whether CM is testifying or not. Drop dead time for his decision is 11AM PT according to BethK

outofstatelawyer
11-01-2011, 01:19 PM
"No questions on re-cross your honor. This witness was already dead when I concluded cross yesterday". :)

borndem
11-01-2011, 01:20 PM
This is the one time I hope Flanagan wins. :crazy: :innocent:

Looking at CM at this moment, 1:18pm, EST, CM looks crestfallen -- looks like he will NOT take the stand -- from my always & ever & never-fail http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif brilliant insights.

octobermoon
11-01-2011, 01:21 PM
CM will NOT testify per In Sessions.

borndem
11-01-2011, 01:22 PM
Flannegan is back to the graphs again. He is asking about free Lorazapam in the stomach at autopsy. Is this not outside the scope of this experts area of expertise?

Was it not established yesterday that witness was not an expert in graphs? LOL


BBM - Well, now, Thundar, just wait one minute!! That was yesterday!! This is today. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

Credence
11-01-2011, 01:22 PM
ETA: How well the kidneys are functioning would be a factor.

This is where I find Dr. White to be tailoring his testimony for the defense. He simply glossed over the blood levels and just concentrated on the urine and IMO to mislead the jury and hoping they won't know that the meds in the urine would have lower levels because of no circulation.

Also noticed quite a bit of propofol in the liver and would also think it would be delivered to the liver prior to the urine, is that correct?

Isabelle
11-01-2011, 01:24 PM
What dose are they using for ativan in this scenario? I've given ativan / lorazapam a zillion times when a psych patient complains of being "up-tight", anxious, and when s/he are totally "out of control."

The state of sedation, regardless of pt's state prior to giving the med, varies widely.

Some patients go into a very deep sleep, with loud noises & other stimulation close by.. they sleep right through it.

Other patients are not affected at all by a 2 mg injection of ativan/lorazapam


Peace what do you think it is that Conrad Murray does not have to justify the amount of controlled substances given by providing records and left over drug that would account for his actions? Think maybe the Medical Board is waiting to nail him on this after the trial? I don't think MD's are exempt from the requirements for use/disposal of controlled substances.

Isabelle
11-01-2011, 01:25 PM
This is where I find Dr. White to be tailoring his testimony for the defense. He simply glossed over the blood levels and just concentrated on the urine and IMO to mislead the jury and hoping they won't know that the meds in the urine would have lower levels because of no circulation.

Also noticed quite a bit of propofol in the liver and would also think it would be delivered to the liver prior to the urine, is that correct?


Correct.

borndem
11-01-2011, 01:25 PM
I don't know what is normal for these types of graphs but a 50% variability seems awfully high to me.


I'll say again, it would have been a flunker in my stat class. (Theoretical stuff, of course, but still -- would you ever submit this kind of graph.)

Kinda like:
Q: Which was first, the chicken or the egg?
A: Yes.

borndem
11-01-2011, 01:29 PM
I was thinking about that and I wonder if it is because they are simulations run without complete data. They aren't based on any facts of when drugs were given, or even the amount. They are based on Murray's LE interviews which perhaps are true or not. So + - 50% is the best they can do. It blows my mind that these professionals can testify on these graphs though and no one has pointed out what that + - 50% means.

Good thought -- Without good data, she could have been showing a graphic version of "Garbage in, garbage out," in a nice way. What do you do with junk? Good point, I say again.

Credence
11-01-2011, 01:31 PM
Jinko saying Judge was emphatic when he told Murray it was his personal right to testify and then when he asked for decision; was a noticeable pause by Murray as he looked left and right towards Chernoff and Flanagan and then said "I will not testify".

Credence
11-01-2011, 01:33 PM
Hmm... Jinka said DT will be resting so guess they are not calling Dr. Ornellas

State has 20 minutes to decide whether or not they will put on rebuttal

borndem
11-01-2011, 01:35 PM
This is the tox report for propofol found in MJ's system.

I still do not understand why the urine would be used to determine how much propofol was given since once your heart stops beating or blood is no longer circulating it would never reach the urine. The blood levels are much higher which is what Dr. Shafer used to determine that more than 25/50mg had been administered. I hope Dr. Shafer explains it during rebuttal.

http://dearconradmurray.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Page50-Toxicology-Report-Summary2.jpg

BBM - My w/a guess is because it's the best shot they've got. They've got nuttin' honey, as you know.

Talina
11-01-2011, 01:35 PM
Well, it doesn't sound like we'll be hearing any testimony from the author of the graphs/models in Dr. White's testimony.

I wonder if the defense jumped the gun yesterday telling Judge Pastor they were going to call her to testify today. She probably wanted no part of Walgren crossing her especially seeing the questions he had yesterday for Dr. White about her data assumptions she used.

IMO

CarolinaMoon
11-01-2011, 01:37 PM
KTLA is mentioning that Dr. Shafer may or not be in town. We could end up recessing after this, with a possible short rebuttal tomorrow, if any.

peace9274
11-01-2011, 01:44 PM
Peace what do you think it is that Conrad Murray does not have to justify the amount of controlled substances given by providing records and left over drug that would account for his actions? Think maybe the Medical Board is waiting to nail him on this after the trial? I don't think MD's are exempt from the requirements for use/disposal of controlled substances.

Every place I have worked, hospitals, clinics, doc's offices, home setting...
whoever has the narc keys (the med nurse) never never ever gives them to someone else,
including another nurse and/or doctor, without counting all the meds in the narcotic box first.

Doctors must follow all narcotic regulations the same way nurses & pharmacists do.
All their narcotic sheets (which shows the count & to whom the med went to, is supposed
to go back to the pharmacy & collected by FDA.

At home settings, all meds, especially narcotics & controlled drugs, are kept locked in a
"tackle box" and the keys are worn around the wrist or neck... (like in the hospital or clinic)....
and are still counted and accounted for, with the on-coming nursing staff.

Doctors know all this and they know that they can't enter the narc box nor ask the med nurse for the keys.

At one of the places I worked, when the med nurse wanted a break, she just handed the narc
& other med keys to the charge nurse, without counting the meds together.

Then it was discovered that a nurse in that hosp was stealing narcotics when relieving nurses
for their breaks. Policy began that narcs be counted even before and after the med nurses' breaks.

peace9274
11-01-2011, 01:50 PM
Did the Judge say how long the break will be?

bravowhisky
11-01-2011, 01:52 PM
Did the Judge say how long the break will be?

He said 15 mins, which would've been 10:30 PST. I'm guessing the procedural stuff is taking a bit longer.

outofstatelawyer
11-01-2011, 01:55 PM
Omg on HLN Dr. White is on tape hanging out with the Murray supporters, standing right in front of a preprinted sign that Walgren "altered" evidence? OMG he may be charged with a third contempt.

octobermoon
11-01-2011, 01:57 PM
Dr. White is standing outside with the crowd??? I (of course was occupied elsewhere :D) when this happened. Anyone else know what is going on? HLN news.

octobermoon
11-01-2011, 01:59 PM
Dr. Shafer back on the stand.

borndem
11-01-2011, 01:59 PM
When this trial is over, I expect to see this skit on SNL.


They wouldn't dare hit it too hard -- but they wouldn't have to.

CM trying to get his finger caught in the sink faucet in the loo to prevent his timely exit & failing. CM running into walls, CM swallowing the IV line. CM pulling down his pants to REALLY stash something, CM throwing his watch out the window. CM calling Domino's pizza. CM trying to find med equipment in the closet shelves & finding some of MJ's gold records and silver gloves & trying them on. CM finding a vacuum cleaner & putting that in the B/R. CM finding a magic wand & trying to see if it might be used as an oral thermometer.

Back to it.......Surprise. Our man Shafer is here.

outofstatelawyer
11-01-2011, 02:00 PM
Ted Rowlands said his cameraman asked White how the testimony went and White said he thought it was "OK", and then asked how Walgren's cross was, and White said "Not that bad". *eyes rolling back in my head*

Credence
11-01-2011, 02:00 PM
Here we go !!!! State is recalling Dr. Shafer for rebuttal.

peace9274
11-01-2011, 02:00 PM
Omg on HLN Dr. White is on tape hanging out with the Murray supporters, standing right in front of a preprinted sign that Walgren "altered" evidence? OMG he may be charged with a third contempt.


GRRRR all that's on HLN here is a local news break.

It's that kind of excitement, White out with supporters...
& the protestors and the arguing in court and watching
CM's bald patches and .... that keeps me watching here!

octobermoon
11-01-2011, 02:00 PM
Defense rested.

Talina
11-01-2011, 02:02 PM
Ted Rowlands said his cameraman asked White how the testimony went and White said he thought it was "OK", and then asked how Walgren's cross was, and White said "Not that bad". *eyes rolling back in my head*

I just really don't know what to think about Dr. White. He has absolutely no respect for the judge's orders.

outofstatelawyer
11-01-2011, 02:02 PM
Shafer's collar is f'd up today. :)

borndem
11-01-2011, 02:02 PM
IMO, the only thing the jury needs is a cause & method of death. THis has been implied, but not stated non-categorically. I think they need this.

outofstatelawyer
11-01-2011, 02:03 PM
I just really don't know what to think about Dr. White. He has absolutely no respect for the judge's orders.

It makes me think $1000 wasn't enough!

Credence
11-01-2011, 02:06 PM
Oh Talina -- so he did talk about the lidocaine -- saying some propofol could have been removed and replaced by lidocaine

Talina
11-01-2011, 02:07 PM
Dr. Shafer does such a much better job of explaining things to a jury. He doesn't come across as someone who needs to impress with the words he uses but instead uses words that laymen can understand.

outofstatelawyer
11-01-2011, 02:09 PM
Dr. Shafer does such a much better job of explaining things to a jury. He doesn't come across as someone who needs to impress with the words he uses but instead uses words that laymen can understand.

Everyone except Jane Velez-Mitchell. She says she doesn't understand any of this, LOL.

CarolinaMoon
11-01-2011, 02:11 PM
Hmmm... research Ornelles (sp?) used was 14 years out of date? Ouchie for the defense!

EPfan
11-01-2011, 02:13 PM
Every place I have worked, hospitals, clinics, doc's offices, home setting...
whoever has the narc keys (the med nurse) never never ever gives them to someone else,
including another nurse and/or doctor, without counting all the meds in the narcotic box first.

Doctors must follow all narcotic regulations the same way nurses & pharmacists do.
All their narcotic sheets (which shows the count & to whom the med went to, is supposed
to go back to the pharmacy & collected by FDA.

At home settings, all meds, especially narcotics & controlled drugs, are kept locked in a
"tackle box" and the keys are worn around the wrist or neck... (like in the hospital or clinic)....
and are still counted and accounted for, with the on-coming nursing staff.

Doctors know all this and they know that they can't enter the narc box nor ask the med nurse for the keys.

At one of the places I worked, when the med nurse wanted a break, she just handed the narc
& other med keys to the charge nurse, without counting the meds together.

Then it was discovered that a nurse in that hosp was stealing narcotics when relieving nurses
for their breaks. Policy began that narcs be counted even before and after the med nurses' breaks.

I don't know if they are suppose to but Hospice leaves medication for the family after they leave. They leave pain medication like Morphine. This has happened every time I have every been involved with Hospice. I think they all do it but don't disclose it because they shouldn't . This is what happends in the real world, I guess.

octobermoon
11-01-2011, 02:17 PM
I don't know if they are suppose to but Hospice leaves medication for the family after they leave. They leave pain medication like Morphine. This has happened every time I have every been involved with Hospice. I think they all do it but don't disclose it because they shouldn't . This is what happends in the real world, I guess.

Yikes, our hospice made me destroy all the drugs that were left over. Even the aroma therapy lotions.

octobermoon
11-01-2011, 02:19 PM
Hmmm... research Ornelles (sp?) used was 14 years out of date? Ouchie for the defense!

And now we know why they didn't call her to testify. :banghead:

Talina
11-01-2011, 02:19 PM
Well, Dr. Shafer just totally debunked Dr. White's entire testimony. IMO

borndem
11-01-2011, 02:19 PM
On IS this morning, they said that one juror was a bio-chemist, and she was also the one who help JP with the next WWWW or VVVV or whatevah on the DT's exhibit. She'd been taking notes & was very attentive.


I have not had any trouble with this chemistry testimony -- although a very hard-earned "C" in my chemistry class in college was one of which I was most glad to get. I was otherwise a good student -- math/calculus, etc., was no problem, although I much preferred Shakespeare.

I'm not bragging, I'm just making the point that I think this jury should also understand Shafer's testimony. If he'd been teaching my chemistry class, who knoze -- maybe an "A" or certainly a "B" !!

peace9274
11-01-2011, 02:20 PM
Some important facts about David Walgren:

David Walgren ‘Bringing Sexy Back’ To The Courtroom

Walgren has a Facebook fan page (https://www.facebook.com/pages/David-Walgren-Is-Hot/285080531502001) titled, "David Walgren Is Hot."

Walgren is happily married to Deputy District Attorney Nicol Walgren, and the couple have two children

octobermoon
11-01-2011, 02:24 PM
LOL, Dr. Shafer can be dismissive of Flanagan and still come across as a nice guy. :)

Plumeria5
11-01-2011, 02:24 PM
Dr. Shafer is so cute! He reads the material with expression like he is reading to a group of children in the library. I love when he smiles and does that little shoulder shrug.

EPfan
11-01-2011, 02:25 PM
Yikes, our hospice made me destroy all the drugs that were left over. Even the aroma therapy lotions.

I was really confused but they left Morphine with me and my sister when my mother was ill. We just looked at each other because yes she needed it but the Hospice people didn't know us except for the time that day that they spent with us.
I know that several other times that I was around when hospice was called in the same thing happend. It was the kind that was given orally.

Plumeria5
11-01-2011, 02:26 PM
Dr. Shafer: "I don't follow your math.":floorlaugh:

Talina
11-01-2011, 02:27 PM
Flanagan just tries, bless his heart, give the impression he so cleverly understands all these medical research papers he puts up and I really don't get the impression that he understands one word of what he is reading. I think that's why half the time the witnesses don't have a clue what he is asking when he finally gets to his question after his confused narrative of what he read.

peace9274
11-01-2011, 02:29 PM
I don't know if they are suppose to but Hospice leaves medication for the family after they leave. They leave pain medication like Morphine. This has happened every time I have every been involved with Hospice. I think they all do it but don't disclose it because they shouldn't . This is what happends in the real world, I guess.

That's true, EPfan.

Family members and patients can do whatever they want with the meds that were
dispensed to them by a pharmacist (except sell or give to someone else).

And anyone can legally give medications to a patient outside an accredited, licensed place
of business... or with an nurses agency.

In that case, only the pharmacist has to account for the meds.

I'm referring to scenarios where/when the caretaker is a licensed doctor, nurse, and pharmacist.

octobermoon
11-01-2011, 02:29 PM
I was really confused but they left Morphine with me and my sister when my mother was ill. We just looked at each other because yes she needed it but the Hospice people didn't know us except for the time that day that they spent with us.
I know that several other times that I was around when hospice was called in the same thing happend. It was the kind that was given orally.

Maybe I misunderstood you. Yes I and family were left with morphine to give when needed. The nurse would come at the drop of a hat if I had questions, and was always available by phone if needed. But after DH died they did an accounting of all the meds provided and watched me distroy them.

peace9274
11-01-2011, 02:31 PM
Doorbell rang... Cable man here to fix TV.

I missed what happened.
GRRRR - Are we on another break? Lunch?

octobermoon
11-01-2011, 02:32 PM
Judge P. is talking to the lawyers. Wonder if rebbutal is over????

Talina
11-01-2011, 02:33 PM
Judge P. is talking to the lawyers. Wonder if rebbutal is over????

I believe so.

Credence
11-01-2011, 02:34 PM
Well, Dr. Shafer just totally debunked Dr. White's entire testimony. IMO

Absolutely and love when he told Flanagan, respectfully, that he interpreted his report incorrectly. Then when pointing out something else in the article Flanagan referred to and said there was more re: giving other meds and Flanagan admitted he wouldn't understand it after reading it anyway. Loved it.

Dr. Shafer totally debunked what White said and was it very clear as well.

Walgren did a good job on that rebuttal - keeping short, sweet and on point.

outofstatelawyer
11-01-2011, 02:35 PM
Wow, it looks like Walgren is a foot taller than Chernoff.

Credence
11-01-2011, 02:36 PM
I cannot wait until we hear/read the jury instructions. I know Chernoff was none too happy with them.

octobermoon
11-01-2011, 02:37 PM
Going over a stipulation/s. Jury is on a break again. Sheesh can't they do these before or after the court so the jury isn't sitting around staring at each other.

Talina
11-01-2011, 02:39 PM
Going over a stipulation/s. Jury is on a break again. Sheesh can't they do these before or after the court so the jury isn't sitting around staring at each other.

I don't think the jury left for that. They just heard the stipulation. Looks like we are about to rest.

octobermoon
11-01-2011, 02:39 PM
Wow, both sides have rested.

Plumeria5
11-01-2011, 02:40 PM
I've got a lawyer question. I am watching the attorneys sitting at their respective tables talking strategy. Is it easy to hear what the other side is saying or do they have to whisper?

octobermoon
11-01-2011, 02:40 PM
Court will resume on Thursday at 9am.

outofstatelawyer
11-01-2011, 02:41 PM
Closing arguments are Thursday. I expect we will have a verdict by close of business on Friday.

Credence
11-01-2011, 02:41 PM
Court in recess until Thursday -- distribution of exhibits, closing arguments and jury instructions

Talina
11-01-2011, 02:42 PM
Closing arguments are Thursday. I expect we will have a verdict by close of business on Friday.

I wouldn't be surprised if you are right.

ETA: Will the jury be sequestered during deliberations?

ges79
11-01-2011, 02:43 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if you are right.

ETA: Will the jury be sequestered during deliberations?

Was wondering that too. :waitasec:

octobermoon
11-01-2011, 02:43 PM
Kind of O/T but I would love to see the contempt hearing for Dr. White.

EPfan
11-01-2011, 02:44 PM
Maybe I misunderstood you. Yes I and family were left with morphine to give when needed. The nurse would come at the drop of a hat if I had questions, and was always available by phone if needed. But after DH died they did an accounting of all the meds provided and watched me distroy them.

Yes we destroyed the left overs, but I guess they know if they should leave the medication of not. I was just really surprised on my first experience with hospice.
I do think a friend of mind, that was the patient was over dosed on Morphine by his daughter because Hospice told her to give him as much as she thought he needed it wouldn't hurt him. She didn't have a clue what she was doing and I think she gave him way too much and he just quit breathing.

borndem
11-01-2011, 02:45 PM
Omg on HLN Dr. White is on tape hanging out with the Murray supporters, standing right in front of a preprinted sign that Walgren "altered" evidence? OMG he may be charged with a third contempt.


WTH is wrong with that man? -- I know he's stressed but is he of sound mind? Kinda makes me feel that he is in a bad burn-out or something not good.

oceanblueeyes
11-01-2011, 02:48 PM
Everyone at the defense table looks very worried!

IMO

Isabelle
11-01-2011, 02:48 PM
I don't know if they are suppose to but Hospice leaves medication for the family after they leave. They leave pain medication like Morphine. This has happened every time I have every been involved with Hospice. I think they all do it but don't disclose it because they shouldn't . This is what happends in the real world, I guess.

Yes the medication can legally be left with the hospice patient and family (family has to give meds cause hospice nurse visits are intermittent, sometimes weekly). However, if the patient dies in the home, the on call hospice nurse must go to the home and waste remaining controlled medication with the EMT or Coroner's deputy as a witness. This is what I am told by friends who work in hospice.

Credence
11-01-2011, 02:49 PM
Listening to HLN -- even the attorney TH representing the defense side says he would find it difficult for the jury not to convict following CA law on involuntary manslaughter.

Michael Barnes also said if law followed; State has met the burden of proof re: elements to convict on involuntary manslaughter. Even the defense's own witnesses had to admit Murray had egregious violations in the standard of care.

Plumeria5
11-01-2011, 02:51 PM
Omg on HLN Dr. White is on tape hanging out with the Murray supporters, standing right in front of a preprinted sign that Walgren "altered" evidence? OMG he may be charged with a third contempt.

You know, I wanted to kinda feel sorry for the guy but now...not so much!!
That was planned!!! The defense is playing dirty!

Isabelle
11-01-2011, 02:51 PM
I was really confused but they left Morphine with me and my sister when my mother was ill. We just looked at each other because yes she needed it but the Hospice people didn't know us except for the time that day that they spent with us.
I know that several other times that I was around when hospice was called in the same thing happend. It was the kind that was given orally.

There has to be a certain degree of trust for home health/hospice to work. Trust me, if your hospice nurse had any concerns re: leaving controlled substances in the home, your mother may well have been transferred to an inpatient hospice unit. Her doctor would have been involved in this decision making.

Isabelle
11-01-2011, 02:52 PM
Everyone at the defense table looks very worried!

IMO

I wonder why? haha

Credence
11-01-2011, 02:54 PM
Everyone at the defense table looks very worried!

IMO

They should be. The state met the burden of proof for involuntary manslaughter and then some. I still believe he should have been charged with 2nd degree murder.

Thundar
11-01-2011, 02:57 PM
From what I caught the last day of testimony was anti-climatic. I am a little bit let down, and now to have to wait until Thursday for the closing arguments is sad. I wanted to see it go to jury either today or tomorrow. Now the jury probably won't get it until Friday or maybe not start deliberations until Monday. Do the California courts know how to drag a trial out or what?

peace9274
11-01-2011, 02:58 PM
They should be. The state met the burden of proof for involuntary manslaughter and then some. I still believe he should have been charged with 2nd degree murder.



I too believe he should've been charged with 2nd degree murder.
There were just way too many violations of patient care.


IMO, The CA Trial caused that.

Credence
11-01-2011, 03:01 PM
I too believe he should've been charged with 2nd degree murder.
There were just way too many violations of patient care.


IMO, The CA Trial caused that.

Yes the CA trial seems to have had a huge effect on our justice system. Although I do not have a popular opinion, LOL, the state overcharged in that case without lesser charges and that is why she was acquitted. I actually agreed with the jury on that one. I believe she was guilty but they just just did not prove the degree of the charges they put forth. Had they been given lesser charges, CA would be spending at least 15 years in jail right now. I did not post much on the CA case because no one liked by opinions because I did not think the state proved their case as outlined but I was trying to weigh the evidence objectively.

In this case, they could have charged 2nd degree murder with a lesser charge of involuntary manslaughter and left it up to the jury.

outofstatelawyer
11-01-2011, 03:06 PM
I too believe he should've been charged with 2nd degree murder.
There were just way too many violations of patient care.


IMO, The CA Trial caused that.

That would be an interesting theory but for the fact this case was charged well before the Casey Anthony trial started. We have to remember that the LA DA's office has had an unfortunate record when it's come to high profile cases (OJ, Robert Blake, to name two), so I think they are just far more careful in their charging decisions from the get go.

borndem
11-01-2011, 03:06 PM
Everyone except Jane Velez-Mitchell. She says she doesn't understand any of this, LOL.

:dramaqueen: -----> :doh:

~n/t~
11-01-2011, 03:12 PM
What sentence would he receive for involuntary manslaughter?

Talina
11-01-2011, 03:14 PM
Yes the CA trial seems to have had a huge effect on our justice system. Although I do not have a popular opinion, LOL, the state overcharged in that case without lesser charges and that is why she was acquitted. I actually agreed with the jury on that one. I believe she was guilty but they just just did not prove the degree of the charges they put forth. Had they been given lesser charges, CA would be spending at least 15 years in jail right now. I did not post much on the CA case because no one liked by opinions because I did not think the state proved their case as outlined but I was trying to weigh the evidence objectively.

In this case, they could have charged 2nd degree murder with a lesser charge of involuntary manslaughter and left it up to the jury.

I know this is off topic and I in no way want to turn this into a CA thread but I'm curious about what you said. I thought there were several lesser charges included, not just 1st degree murder.

Thundar
11-01-2011, 03:22 PM
What sentence would he receive for involuntary manslaughter?

The very most time Murray can get with how he is charged is 4 years.

peace9274
11-01-2011, 03:29 PM
Yes the CA trial seems to have had a huge effect on our justice system. Although I do not have a popular opinion, LOL, the state overcharged in that case without lesser charges and that is why she was acquitted. I actually agreed with the jury on that one. I believe she was guilty but they just just did not prove the degree of the charges they put forth. Had they been given lesser charges, CA would be spending at least 15 years in jail right now. I did not post much on the CA case because no one liked by opinions because I did not think the state proved their case as outlined but I was trying to weigh the evidence objectively.

In this case, they could have charged 2nd degree murder with a lesser charge of involuntary manslaughter and left it up to the jury.

BBM

I went through 2 trials very close together.
The first one was my divorce from a very short 2nd marriage.

My attorneys did an excellent job of presenting the facts and showed why both my ex-husband
and I should walk away from the marriage with $250k in cash, assets & investments each.

But Connecticut is not a community property state, so we had to go to trial. My ex-husband and his
attys hired witnesses to lie about me and also came each day with new outlandish, cruel lies about me.

My legal fees, over the 3 yr period, including the trial, came to just over $50k. I was awarded by the lady Judge,
$20k. Which means I was in the hole. I paid my atty more than I received!

I was devastated, in shock and furious at the judge's final decision.
It was so unexpected and so maddening what all my ex did, each
day in court, to get everything he got!

My attys seemed stunned and said they could not prove or disprove
what all my ex, his attys, and the phony witnesses said about me.

The final decision was up to the judge and who she believed.

I do have to add, that the judge did smile and laugh and leaned towards my ex
when he was on the stand. At first I blamed her for being so stupid and that she
could not see through his fake charm, charisma & lies.

But, then I had to keep telling myself that he had charmed ME, too!
And he had charmed many women before, during, and after our marriage.

What got me was though when 2 co-workers (who worked in a psychiatric hosp with me)
said I should've know better than to get wrapped up with a sociopath/psychopath!
That I should've been able to spot it, since so many of our patients were sociopaths, too.

But, there were the many others that reminded me that a sociopath is very hard to spot...
and easy to fall under their spell, because of their charm, charisma, and lies!

OK... sorry for the TMI.
I didn't mean to go on & on with that miserable part of my life! LOL

Oldsoul2
11-01-2011, 03:29 PM
The very most time Murray can get with how he is charged is 4 years.

I have also read that due to recent changes in the law in the state of California he will be charged to serve only 2 years if convicted and the loss of his medical license.

Talina
11-01-2011, 03:34 PM
Flipping channels and stopped on Fox News. Shepperd Smith show was on and I thought, ok a break from MJ for a bit. Low and behold, he has 2 attorneys on and they are going to talk about the trial.

The first to start was a criminal defense attorney and he starts off immediately spouting that this country's criminal court system yada yada yada, shouldn't be dealing with yada yada. Then he says this man's life is on the line - to which Shepperd interrups and says
:rocker:his life is on the line with involuntary manslaughter? Who's life was on the line when he walked out to make a call to his girlfriend? :rocker:
Not to miss a beat the criminal defense atty says people don't realize that when the judge gives the jury instructions they are going to say that in order for you to vote guilty the prosecution must have proved precisely what day and time of day he died and that CM personally injected the lethal dose of propofol. Say what? :banghead::banghead:

To which Talina said to the TV: you have no clue what you are talking about..see ya :seeya: got busy with the remote again channel surfing.

Thundar
11-01-2011, 03:41 PM
I have also read that due to recent changes in the law in the state of California he will be charged to serve only 2 years if convicted and the loss of his medical license.

I have heard that too. I sure hope he looses his medical license. As far as I can tell he only lost it as a condition of bail, and that seems to be debatable at the least. It was posted in one of the earlier threads that he lost it as a condition of bail, but then at a hearing that order was rescinded. So I really can't tell if he has lost it as a condition of bail or not.

Hopefully he will loose it after the trial.

peace9274
11-01-2011, 03:50 PM
I got an email stating that there are several "magical good days" this year....
all with multiple number ones in the dates.

Today, being 11-1-11 ... is one of them.

I hope today is a magical good day for all of you! :)

Talina
11-01-2011, 03:53 PM
I have heard that too. I sure hope he looses his medical license. As far as I can tell he only lost it as a condition of bail, and that seems to be debatable at the least. It was posted in one of the earlier threads that he lost it as a condition of bail, but then at a hearing that order was rescinded. So I really can't tell if he has lost it as a condition of bail or not.

Hopefully he will loose it after the trial.

Here is an article from June 2010 where the judge ruled he could keep his license:
http://www.ktla.com/news/nationworld/ktla-conrad-murray-court-hearing,0,2920921.story

At the preliminary hearing, upon hearing the prosecution's evidence and witness testimony, the judge changed his ruling and suspended his license:

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jan/12/local/la-me-conrad-murray-20110112

Credence
11-01-2011, 03:55 PM
I know this is off topic and I in no way want to turn this into a CA thread but I'm curious about what you said. I thought there were several lesser charges included, not just 1st degree murder.

She could have been charged with child neglect (not supervising her properly) and illegally disposing of a body. In NY -- illegally disposing of a body carries 15 years and many have been convicted of it. I am not sure what the penalty would be in Florida but it is against the law. All of the charges she received is because they were intentional acts - and that is what was not proven IMO. I also do not believe Dr. Vass should have been allowed to testify under the Frye Act and do believe any conviction would have been reversed on appeal.

This is what she was charged with:

First-degree murder
Aggravated child abuse
Aggravated manslaughter of a child
4 counts of providing false information to a law enforcement officer:

Credence
11-01-2011, 04:05 PM
BBM

I went through 2 trials very close together.
The first one was my divorce from a very short 2nd marriage.

<Respectfully snipped>

OK... sorry for the TMI.
I didn't mean to go on & on with that miserable part of my life! LOL

Wow peace. So sorry you had to go through that. :(

Isabelle
11-01-2011, 05:28 PM
I have also read that due to recent changes in the law in the state of California he will be charged to serve only 2 years if convicted and the loss of his medical license.

Loss of the Medical License nationwide would be perfect.

borndem
11-01-2011, 05:45 PM
Everyone at the defense table looks very worried!

IMO

Pity, that!

I, like some others, think that CM did want to testify -- especially after Flan-again said that without it, he would probably be convicted......

I do wonder if CM had a plan and a dialog all ready to meet the PT -- "He was doing great. His heartbeat was strong, he was breathing deeply & well, his p/o was 98. I left him for only 2 minutes and he injected the propofol so fast, he died before I got out of the loo." Yep, that ought to do it. Then I can talk medical to Walgren and the jury will be amazed at what I say, and I'll be outta here! And if he is convicted, he will blame it on Cherny. And he will let the world know it. Or he'll get a one way ticket to Trinidad. Or both. JMO.

borndem
11-01-2011, 05:58 PM
Listening to HLN -- even the attorney TH representing the defense side says he would find it difficult for the jury not to convict following CA law on involuntary manslaughter.
Michael Barnes also said if law followed; State has met the burden of proof re: elements to convict on involuntary manslaughter. Even the defense's own witnesses had to admit Murray had egregious violations in the standard of care.


BBM
That's what I want to see, Credence! I want to read how he is charged -- to see the law. I'm gonna start digging to see if I can find it unless some good soul on here knows where it is documented for CM's charge.

The jury instructions will probably have some of that language in it, and unless they "go OJ," they will have to find him guilty. IT DOES NOT MATTER from where or by whom the fatal dose of the propofol was found or given, it's deviation from SOC which is negligence by CM and no one else. Period.


This case really shakes my soul & makes me wanna holler. Grrrrrr.



pardon another one...

:rant:

TxLady2
11-01-2011, 06:55 PM
Yes the medication can legally be left with the hospice patient and family (family has to give meds cause hospice nurse visits are intermittent, sometimes weekly). However, if the patient dies in the home, the on call hospice nurse must go to the home and waste remaining controlled medication with the EMT or Coroner's deputy as a witness. This is what I am told by friends who work in hospice.


My husband's sister died a few years ago in her home in Alabama, from cancer. We were there when she died, and the hospice nurse needed a witness while she wasted the remaining medicine. She asked me to do it, and I agreed. I had to sign a form, I think.

TxLady2
11-01-2011, 06:59 PM
Wow, it looks like Walgren is a foot taller than Chernoff.

I noticed that!!! Cute, and tall too! WOW... I do love this guy! Makes ole Chernoff look plumb dumpy!

borndem
11-01-2011, 09:11 PM
An older article about a bit of CM's past, if you're bored & want to see him with a beard & looking possibly like he might look in the jailhouse.

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/MichaelJackson/story?id=8199286&page=1
----------------------------------------------

Advertisement by a Defense Firm in CA, but it has the actual legal definition and a textbook example. Also the law firm uses CM & MJ as their own example of one manner of I. M.
You'll have to mow through some of the firm's jibberty-jab, but it's good info.

http://www.shouselaw.com/involuntary_manslaughter.html
-------------------------------------------------------
Felony Complaint for the warrant:

http://dearconradmurray.com/documents/felony-command-for-arrest-warrant/

Credence
11-01-2011, 09:19 PM
Felony Complaint for Arrest Warrant Dr. Conrad Murray:

http://dearconradmurray.com/documents/felony-command-for-arrest-warrant/


CA Law - Penal Code 192(b)

192:
Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without
malice. It is of three kinds:

(b) Involuntary--in the commission of an unlawful act, not
amounting to felony; or in the commission of a lawful act which might
produce death, in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and
circumspection. This subdivision shall not apply to acts committed in
the driving of a vehicle.

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/192.html

borndem
11-01-2011, 09:34 PM
Originally Posted by outofstatelawyer http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
Omg on HLN Dr. White is on tape hanging out with the Murray supporters, standing right in front of a preprinted sign that Walgren "altered" evidence? OMG he may be charged with a third contempt.



You know, I wanted to kinda feel sorry for the guy but now...not so much!!
That was planned!!! The defense is playing dirty!


I don't have one bit of sympathy for the guy, but the more I think about it, and after seeing him say, "I'm just trying to get a cab," after he mowed thru that mini-mob, I think he may just be a bit of a bumbling nerd -- and that is NOT intended to be disparaging, ugly or mean-spirited about him, that's just how I see it now.

borndem
11-01-2011, 09:39 PM
What sentence would he receive for involuntary manslaughter?

Up to 4 (four, only 4, Roman Numeral IV, the number between 3 and 5, or 2+2) long years.

Wow! Some trade-off, huh??? (Not intended at all, ~n/t~, to be smart-azz, just trying to show what a small number of years it is...) http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon8.gifhttp://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif

borndem
11-01-2011, 09:44 PM
I know this is off topic and I in no way want to turn this into a CA thread but I'm curious about what you said. I thought there were several lesser charges included, not just 1st degree murder.

ITA, Talina with you and Credence on the CA charge -- They shot for the moon and got nothing. I didn't bang on it too much either, Talina, at the time -- I remember "seeing" you both on that forum -- but I felt all along that they were putting all their eggs in one basket & should have given them a choice of 1st or 2nd -- in fact, it may very well have been 2nd DM.

borndem
11-01-2011, 09:51 PM
Yes the CA trial seems to have had a huge effect on our justice system. Although I do not have a popular opinion, LOL, the state overcharged in that case without lesser charges and that is why she was acquitted. I actually agreed with the jury on that one. I believe she was guilty but they just just did not prove the degree of the charges they put forth. Had they been given lesser charges, CA would be spending at least 15 years in jail right now. I did not post much on the CA case because no one liked by opinions because I did not think the state proved their case as outlined but I was trying to weigh the evidence objectively.

In this case, they could have charged 2nd degree murder with a lesser charge of involuntary manslaughter and left it up to the jury.

ITA, Credence!

oceanblueeyes
11-01-2011, 10:00 PM
Pity, that!

I, like some others, think that CM did want to testify -- especially after Flan-again said that without it, he would probably be convicted......

I do wonder if CM had a plan and a dialog all ready to meet the PT -- "He was doing great. His heartbeat was strong, he was breathing deeply & well, his p/o was 98. I left him for only 2 minutes and he injected the propofol so fast, he died before I got out of the loo." Yep, that ought to do it. Then I can talk medical to Walgren and the jury will be amazed at what I say, and I'll be outta here! And if he is convicted, he will blame it on Cherny. And he will let the world know it. Or he'll get a one way ticket to Trinidad. Or both. JMO.

I think all the drama moment was orchestrated. There isn't one attorney on his DT that could have stopped him if he really wanted to testify but I do think he wants to project that idea out there so in the end if he is convicted he will come out all weepy and say he wanted to testify. Like if he had just testified he would have gone free. Right. :floorlaugh:

Like Beth Karas said today Murray puts a lot of thought in what he says before he says it and he tired to make it so melodramatic..using the great pause affect and all.:floorlaugh: Just like he was on the youtube video when he said he had told the troot.:floorlaugh:

When we know he cant handle the truth.

BTW, he traveled to Trinidad in 2005 promoting a spors drink and he took a harem uh I mean some ladies with him. Beth said he has another child living in Trinidad. He is from Grenada and I guess he can go back there and become a doctor again or like you say move to Trinidad where paying for one child is better than paying for several here.

IMO

borndem
11-01-2011, 10:02 PM
Flipping channels and stopped on Fox News. Shepperd Smith show was on and I thought, ok a break from MJ for a bit. Low and behold, he has 2 attorneys on and they are going to talk about the trial.

The first to start was a criminal defense attorney and he starts off immediately spouting that this country's criminal court system yada yada yada, shouldn't be dealing with yada yada. Then he says this man's life is on the line - to which Shepperd interrups and says
:rocker:his life is on the line with involuntary manslaughter? Who's life was on the line when he walked out to make a call to his girlfriend? :rocker:
Not to miss a beat the criminal defense atty says people don't realize that when the judge gives the jury instructions they are going to say that in order for you to vote guilty the prosecution must have proved precisely what day and time of day he died and that CM personally injected the lethal dose of propofol. Say what? :banghead::banghead:

To which Talina said to the TV: you have no clue what you are talking about..see ya :seeya: got busy with the remote again channel surfing.


Well, it's late, I'm tired, my DH is o/o/town, and apparentlyI'm feeling a bit "snappy" (I do not drink alcohol, so it's just "me" here..) but I'll stick my liberal neck out of my liberal shell and say that's Fox for you. I've tried to watch it, but just cannot. Fox Sports, OTOH, is just fine.

So let the hate mail begin...... http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon6.gif <snort>
I'm gonna duck now...

borndem
11-01-2011, 10:08 PM
BBM

I went through 2 trials very close together.
The first one was my divorce from a very short 2nd marriage.

My attorneys did an excellent job of presenting the facts and showed why both my ex-husband
and I should walk away from the marriage with $250k in cash, assets & investments each.

But Connecticut is not a community property state, so we had to go to trial. My ex-husband and his
attys hired witnesses to lie about me and also came each day with new outlandish, cruel lies about me.

My legal fees, over the 3 yr period, including the trial, came to just over $50k. I was awarded by the lady Judge,
$20k. Which means I was in the hole. I paid my atty more than I received!

I was devastated, in shock and furious at the judge's final decision.
It was so unexpected and so maddening what all my ex did, each
day in court, to get everything he got!

My attys seemed stunned and said they could not prove or disprove
what all my ex, his attys, and the phony witnesses said about me.

The final decision was up to the judge and who she believed.

I do have to add, that the judge did smile and laugh and leaned towards my ex
when he was on the stand. At first I blamed her for being so stupid and that she
could not see through his fake charm, charisma & lies.

But, then I had to keep telling myself that he had charmed ME, too!
And he had charmed many women before, during, and after our marriage.

What got me was though when 2 co-workers (who worked in a psychiatric hosp with me)
said I should've know better than to get wrapped up with a sociopath/psychopath!
That I should've been able to spot it, since so many of our patients were sociopaths, too.

But, there were the many others that reminded me that a sociopath is very hard to spot...
and easy to fall under their spell, because of their charm, charisma, and lies!

OK... sorry for the TMI.
I didn't mean to go on & on with that miserable part of my life! LOL


Bless your heart, peace. At least you got away while you were still "you." And the star-struck judge (maybe she's dating him now) let him out the door to keep on doing it. The heart wants what it wants, but again, at least you're DONE WITH IT! More power to you, Woman!! ((hugs))

borndem
11-01-2011, 10:11 PM
I have heard that too. I sure hope he looses his medical license. As far as I can tell he only lost it as a condition of bail, and that seems to be debatable at the least. It was posted in one of the earlier threads that he lost it as a condition of bail, but then at a hearing that order was rescinded. So I really can't tell if he has lost it as a condition of bail or not.

Hopefully he will loose it after the trial.


He'll probably go back to Trinidad or Grenada, good riddance, but what is the law on license surrender?? Does anyone know? Is it permanent in a case like this, or can he simply wait a few years and apply for it to be re-instated??

Talina
11-01-2011, 10:14 PM
Well, it's late, I'm tired, my DH is o/o/town, and apparentlyI'm feeling a bit "snappy" (I do not drink alcohol, so it's just "me" here..) but I'll stick my liberal neck out of my liberal shell and say that's Fox for you. I've tried to watch it, but just cannot. Fox Sports, OTOH, is just fine.

So let the hate mail begin...... http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon6.gif <snort>
I'm gonna duck now...

LOL!!! :floorlaugh:

Actually, I've seen the same nonsense spouted by THs and attorneys and other commentators on several channels. That uninformed nonsense doesn't play favorites as far as what channel it chooses to infect. :rocker:

IMO

borndem
11-01-2011, 10:17 PM
I got an email stating that there are several "magical good days" this year....
all with multiple number ones in the dates.

Today, being 11-1-11 ... is one of them.

I hope today is a magical good day for all of you! :)

:great::rollercoaster::pillowfight2::cupcake::love you::woot::party::balloons::fireworks::rolling::su ndae::jumping::toast::genie::cooler:

borndem
11-01-2011, 10:30 PM
Here is an article from June 2010 where the judge ruled he could keep his license:
http://www.ktla.com/news/nationworld/ktla-conrad-murray-court-hearing,0,2920921.story

At the preliminary hearing, upon hearing the prosecution's evidence and witness testimony, the judge changed his ruling and suspended his license:

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jan/12/local/la-me-conrad-murray-20110112


Talina - Thx for this article...I noticed the line below in the article, and it made me belch forth a remark.

"Murray is licensed in California, Texas and Nevada, but does not practice in California, his attorney said."

I will agree with his attorney on that statement... He wasn't practicing medicine, all right. More like practicing mal-medicine.... MOO. Grrrrrr.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jan/12/local/la-me-conrad-murray-20110112

borndem
11-01-2011, 10:35 PM
Loss of the Medical License nationwide would be perfect.

Yesssssssssss!http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

borndem
11-01-2011, 10:43 PM
Felony Complaint for Arrest Warrant Dr. Conrad Murray:

http://dearconradmurray.com/documents/felony-command-for-arrest-warrant/


CA Law - Penal Code 192(b)

192:
Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without
malice. It is of three kinds:

(b) Involuntary--in the commission of an unlawful act, not
amounting to felony; or in the commission of a lawful act which might
produce death, in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and
circumspection. This subdivision shall not apply to acts committed in
the driving of a vehicle.

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/192.html


A BIG thanks, Credence!!!...http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

MissJames
11-01-2011, 11:28 PM
My husband's sister died a few years ago in her home in Alabama, from cancer. We were there when she died, and the hospice nurse needed a witness while she wasted the remaining medicine. She asked me to do it, and I agreed. I had to sign a form, I think.

Same here,SC.

borndem
11-01-2011, 11:42 PM
LOL!!! :floorlaugh:

Actually, I've seen the same nonsense spouted by THs and attorneys and other commentators on several channels. That uninformed nonsense doesn't play favorites as far as what channel it chooses to infect. :rocker:

IMO

Thanks for the reply -- it's nice to have someone who still cares even tho I am of the leftish persuasion -- but murder and negligence has no particular enemies or friends on the left or right, do they?? Equal oppty.

Anyhoots, you're right. I was listening to HLN this afternoon (when we still had daylight) -- these California hours have completely changed my body clock.... everything is off now, and I'm doing nearly everything 2--3 hours later than usual. Bedtime, 2:00am, wake up, 8:00am -- really & truly. Those left coasters have screwed me all up!! LOL I've got to get back to some other heinous crime -- not due to lack of 'em, that's for dayam sure -- on the Atlantic side of this planet.

They're everywhere!! They everywhere!! :eek:..:eek:..:eek:..:panic:..:panic:..:panic:..:n oooo:..:froggie:..:froggie:..:frog:....:propeller: ....:sumo:.....:ohwow:...:ohwow:.. :ohwow:


ANYway, one of the HLN'ers said something about the PT never really showing "who was responsible" for giving him all that milk, so they would probably get a hung jury & I, being at home by myself & being able to do such w/out my DH calling 911, just stood up and screamed & told him how just plain stoooopid he was. I mean really. So I fired off a biatch-strip somewhere on this poor helpless forum. And I felt much bettah.

Oh heyell, I'm at it agin' Ellie Mae (not you, I'm back in Beverly Hills again...)

shhh, borndem, be quiet, honey...

borndem
11-02-2011, 01:00 AM
"No questions on re-cross your honor. This witness was already dead when I concluded cross yesterday". :)

".....He was trampled to death by the 2nd chair defense attorney who has not been seen since that time.. How's that bench-warrant going, anyway, Your Honor? Oh, and BTW, I heard last night that he had done this before. On a similar case he bored the witness to death while the witness was undergoing his re-direct. He just made a little whimper and fell out of the chair dead, poor man."




http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

azwriter
11-02-2011, 01:25 AM
I just really don't know what to think about Dr. White. He has absolutely no respect for the judge's orders.

Or, he doesn't understand them.

Brillant in one area only but no common sense. Happens all the time with the really smart one.

just my O

~n/t~
11-02-2011, 10:08 AM
:seeya:

So defense rested. Rebuttal done, right? When are closing arguments? TIA

TxLady2
11-02-2011, 10:18 AM
Closing arguments will begin Thursday, I am pretty sure. The jury gets to rest today while the attorneys and judge meet to draft the jury instructions, etc.
I can't wait to hear Walgren's CA... it will be stupendous, magnificent, super-dooper great. I'll probably doze through the defense's statement.

Isabelle
11-02-2011, 10:23 AM
Listening to Murray's interview this morning on IS. He states he knew that if he couldn't ventilate the patient the best thing to do is compressions! OMG. Further listening to the interview leads me to believe that he has flawed critical thinking skills, essential to medical practice.

Velouria
11-02-2011, 11:18 AM
Or, he doesn't understand them.

Brillant in one area only but no common sense. Happens all the time with the really smart one.

just my O

OMG YES! Just watching the footage of Dr. White leaving the courthouse on IS. Poor guy just seems so out of it. WHY would he choose to walk right through the throngs of supporters and protesters?

Talina
11-02-2011, 12:21 PM
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,3651619.story

excerpt from end of article:

Over defense attorneys' objections, Pastor also accepted a jury instruction that goes to the question of whether Murray could be convicted even if jurors believe the defense's contention that Jackson injected himself.

Jurors will be told that Murray is still criminally liable "if the defendant should have foreseen the possibility of harm that could result from his act."

octobermoon
11-02-2011, 12:54 PM
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,3651619.story

excerpt from end of article:

Over defense attorneys' objections, Pastor also accepted a jury instruction that goes to the question of whether Murray could be convicted even if jurors believe the defense's contention that Jackson injected himself.

Jurors will be told that Murray is still criminally liable "if the defendant should have foreseen the possibility of harm that could result from his act."

:great::woohoo::great:

Talina
11-02-2011, 12:57 PM
:great::woohoo::great:

Yes, and all that wasted time with the defense putting so much emphasis on their theory of MJ self injecting a fatal dose. :floorlaugh:

oceanblueeyes
11-02-2011, 01:01 PM
:great::woohoo::great:

I was floored when White said that Murray himself loaded the propofol up and left in the bedroom. Oh my goodness White helped to cook Murray's goose.

However I don't believe that is what happened for one second.

I believe he gave him a bolus and then a drip. I don't believe he tried to cut back on the nights prior either.

Well ya get my drift! I wouldn't believe Murray if I saw his tongue being notarized right in front of my eyes.:floorlaugh:

Talina
11-02-2011, 01:04 PM
I was floored when White said that Murray himself loaded the propofol up and left in the bedroom. Oh my goodness White helped to cook Murray's goose.

However I don't believe that is what happened for one second.

I believe he gave him a bolus and then a drip. I don't believe he tried to cut back on the nights prior either.

Well ya get my drift! I wouldn't believe Murray if I saw his tongue being notarized right in front of my eyes.:floorlaugh:

It just doesn't seem possible that the defense team lawyers did not understand the Involuntary Manslaughter law in California. Just seems bizarre to me that they would so strongly argue a theory that still falls under the law to convict.

But really, when thinking about it, they had virtually nothing to work with to defend CMs actions. He'd have done better to come clean and beg the DAs mercy from the get go.

Credence
11-02-2011, 01:30 PM
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,3651619.story

excerpt from end of article:

Over defense attorneys' objections, Pastor also accepted a jury instruction that goes to the question of whether Murray could be convicted even if jurors believe the defense's contention that Jackson injected himself.

Jurors will be told that Murray is still criminally liable "if the defendant should have foreseen the possibility of harm that could result from his act."

Good afternoon all :)

Based on the excerpts from the jury instructions this should be an easy guilty verdict made at least by end of day Friday.

If the jurors go beyond Friday for verdict; I think it will be a hung jury.

Credence
11-02-2011, 01:33 PM
It just doesn't seem possible that the defense team lawyers did not understand the Involuntary Manslaughter law in California. Just seems bizarre to me that they would so strongly argue a theory that still falls under the law to convict.

But really, when thinking about it, they had virtually nothing to work with to defend CMs actions. He'd have done better to come clean and beg the DAs mercy from the get go.

I think the defense team did the best they could with what they had to work with. There really is no defense for his actions/behavior.

Having said that, it only takes one juror to believe that if MJ self-injected it was his fault; to take it upon themselves for nullification resulting in a hung jury. I hope that is not the case.

Thundar
11-02-2011, 02:18 PM
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,3651619.story

excerpt from end of article:

Over defense attorneys' objections, Pastor also accepted a jury instruction that goes to the question of whether Murray could be convicted even if jurors believe the defense's contention that Jackson injected himself.

Jurors will be told that Murray is still criminally liable "if the defendant should have foreseen the possibility of harm that could result from his act."

So basically the entire defense was null and void; a waste of time. But then what else is a defense team suppose to do when their client did something that is indefensible? If I was on the jury and heard this part of the instructions I would be shaking my head and voting guilty as fast as I could.

Makes one wonder why Murray wasted the courts time and money and did not just plead guilty or try to get a reduced charge with the surrender of his medical license. Oh never mind, that is what Murray was trying to keep, his medical license. I sure hope he looses that in the US.

Isabelle
11-02-2011, 02:30 PM
I think we are going to see a quick guilty decision.

oceanblueeyes
11-02-2011, 02:48 PM
So basically the entire defense was null and void; a waste of time. But then what else is a defense team suppose to do when their client did something that is indefensible? If I was on the jury and heard this part of the instructions I would be shaking my head and voting guilty as fast as I could.

Makes one wonder why Murray wasted the courts time and money and did not just plead guilty or try to get a reduced charge with the surrender of his medical license. Oh never mind, that is what Murray was trying to keep, his medical license. I sure hope he looses that in the US.

The first thing I would do if I was Walgren is remind the jury of who the defendant really is and it is NOT Michael Jackson. He is the victim in this case.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
11-02-2011, 02:51 PM
Good afternoon all :)

Based on the excerpts from the jury instructions this should be an easy guilty verdict made at least by end of day Friday.

If the jurors go beyond Friday for verdict; I think it will be a hung jury.

I have learned not to put time limits on juries. I have seen some that went on over a week and I thought surely it was going to be a hung jury but in the end the verdict was guilty.

So I don't know how long it will take them but I just don't see nullification in this case.

IMO

outofstatelawyer
11-02-2011, 03:15 PM
I was floored when White said that Murray himself loaded the propofol up and left in the bedroom. Oh my goodness White helped to cook Murray's goose.

However I don't believe that is what happened for one second.

I believe he gave him a bolus and then a drip. I don't believe he tried to cut back on the nights prior either.

Well ya get my drift! I wouldn't believe Murray if I saw his tongue being notarized right in front of my eyes.:floorlaugh:

I think so too. IIRC the bottle with the defendant's print on it was 100 ml? Why open a 100 ml. bottle if you only intend to give 25 ml? Those bottles, IIRC, are labeled to use within 6 hours of opening. Also, did the defense ever give an explanation of why that saline bag was slit? Even if you have doubts about the propofol being propped up in that bag (and I don't), why would a slit bag be hanging from the IV stand?

oceanblueeyes
11-02-2011, 06:45 PM
I think so too. IIRC the bottle with the defendant's print on it was 100 ml? Why open a 100 ml. bottle if you only intend to give 25 ml? Those bottles, IIRC, are labeled to use within 6 hours of opening. Also, did the defense ever give an explanation of why that saline bag was slit? Even if you have doubts about the propofol being propped up in that bag (and I don't), why would a slit bag be hanging from the IV stand?

I believe you are correct. I cant see any other purpose why the saline bag would be slit hanging from the IV pole. Dr. Shafer didn't have to tirelessly work with this demonstration to get it to work. Although unorthodox it was a very simple quick thing to do.

Also the bottle remained in the saline bag without any problem even though DS used a slenderer propofol bottle than the one Murray did. So Murray's bottle would be larger around making it be tighter in the bag where it would stay in place.

Exactly, he ordered the 100 ml for the drips.
He ordered the 20 ml bottles to be used for the boluses. I dont think he had a clue that the propofol was to be discarded if not used in 6 hours after opening or he just took the risk.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
11-02-2011, 07:50 PM
Dr. Conrad Murray DA David Walgren ‘Bringing Sexy Back’ To The Courtroom

Walgren has impressed courthouse onlookers with his impressive legal skills and professionalism. However, it's his JFK Jr. resemblance that has inspired a YouTube video montage of Walgren set to Justin Timberlake's hit, Sexy Back.

Walgren is happily married to Deputy District Attorney Nicol Walgren, and the couple have two children.

Take a look at David Walgren bringing Sexy Back below:

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/10/conrad-murray-da-david-walgren-bringing-sexy-back-courtroom

borndem
11-02-2011, 08:10 PM
OMG YES! Just watching the footage of Dr. White leaving the courthouse on IS. Poor guy just seems so out of it. WHY would he choose to walk right through the throngs of supporters and protesters?


It's probably the same spot where the cab let him off that morning.... yeah, I may be wrong, but I don't think he's much of a schemer or anything -- but he was, shall we say, shading his testimony just a bit (:eek:) for the DT -- some folks might call it "selling his soul"..... But I think he's a bit of a brainiac mixed with a touch of nerd and that university-ivory-tower view of the world.

borndem
11-02-2011, 08:20 PM
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,3651619.story

excerpt from end of article:

Over defense attorneys' objections, Pastor also accepted a jury instruction that goes to the question of whether Murray could be convicted even if jurors believe the defense's contention that Jackson injected himself.

Jurors will be told that Murray is still criminally liable "if the defendant should have foreseen the possibility of harm that could result from his act."


Ooooohhhh Yesssssssssss! No offense to the brilliant JP in the slightest, but at least HE gets it. That little part should take care of those jurors wondering about that aspect of possible guilt. It might just point that potential "doubter" in the correct direction!!

A Victory for the People on that one, folks!!

Thanks, Talina, for finding that tidbit!!:great:

oceanblueeyes
11-02-2011, 08:32 PM
Ooooohhhh Yesssssssssss! No offense to the brilliant JP in the slightest, but at least HE gets it. That little part should take care of those jurors wondering about that aspect of possible guilt. It might just point that potential "doubter" in the correct direction!!

A Victory for the People on that one, folks!!

Thanks, Talina, for finding that tidbit!!:great:

I really believe the verdict will be based on reasoning and common sense.

One thing the DT did not address.... which is just as much an elephant in the room as the propofol... and that is the slit saline bag.:waitasec: What other purpose could there be that would dismiss the propofol bottle being put in it? There isn't anything else that logically explains it.

Then we have Murray's fingerprint only on that bottle and MJs are no where to be found nor on the lorazepam bottle or syringe. We also have the tear in the rubber stopper that could only come from a spike being used when setting up a drip.

I don't believe Murray ever tried to wean MJ off. Why would he buy 100 ml and 200 ml bottles if he didn't plan to use each bottle all at one time? He said he gave a drip for almost 2 months. The smaller ml bottles were used for the initial boluses given nightly. It clearly states on the product information that any unused propofol is to be discarded 6 hours after it is opened.

The drip is consistent with the evidence presented. It is not consistent with MJ injecting just 25 more mgs. The propofol femoral blood level would not be 40 times higher than the 25 mgs Murray said he gave him even adding the 25 mgs that White said MJ injected.

The defense theory just doesn't compute.:maddening:

If the saline bag is slit then you cannot acquit.

IMOO

borndem
11-02-2011, 09:08 PM
It just doesn't seem possible that the defense team lawyers did not understand the Involuntary Manslaughter law in California. Just seems bizarre to me that they would so strongly argue a theory that still falls under the law to convict.

But really, when thinking about it, they had virtually nothing to work with to defend CMs actions. He'd have done better to come clean and beg the DAs mercy from the get go.


Yes and yes and yes.

They had nothing to start with and now they have less than that. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

borndem
11-02-2011, 09:26 PM
Good afternoon all :)

Based on the excerpts from the jury instructions this should be an easy guilty verdict made at least by end of day Friday.

If the jurors go beyond Friday for verdict; I think it will be a hung jury.


I don't see that the jurors have a choice, and I'm a bit superstitious to say that I agree, Credence, but I do (if I gnawed my nails, I'd be gnawing them now) -- there is no "out" on this one. None. <gnaw, gnaw> And so very self-evident from the beginning, as has already been said.

Self-infliction by MJ was not feasible, as we have all agreed. The good Dr. Shafer laid that out clearly enuff for anyone to see & understand. Even in a rush and sober and alert enuff to accomplish it, which was impossible, it did not matter. It was CM's propofol, his equipment and his nightly routine for 80 or so days in a row.

CM equipped, ran & owned that "treatment room," and now he should own the verdict. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon8.gif

<gnaw, gnaw>

borndem
11-02-2011, 09:37 PM
I believe you are correct. I cant see any other purpose why the saline bag would be slit hanging from the IV pole. Dr. Shafer didn't have to tirelessly work with this demonstration to get it to work. Although unorthodox it was a very simple quick thing to do.

Also the bottle remained in the saline bag without any problem even though DS used a slenderer propofol bottle than the one Murray did. So Murray's bottle would be larger around making it be tighter in the bag where it would stay in place.

Exactly, he ordered the 100 ml for the drips.
He ordered the 20 ml bottles to be used for the boluses. I dont think he had a clue that the propofol was to be discarded if not used in 6 hours after opening or he just took the risk.

IMO

And I think, as someone said earlier, that CM used that same slit bag night after night. Yuck. If this routine had persisted beyond the 25th, MJ might well have died from sepsis. Seriously. What a &!(% +~(% that man was to Michael Jackson. Grrrrrrrrrrr.

oceanblueeyes
11-02-2011, 09:47 PM
And I think, as someone said earlier, that CM used that same slit bag night after night. Yuck. If this routine had persisted beyond the 25th, MJ might well have died from sepsis. Seriously. What a &!(% +~(% that man was to Michael Jackson. Grrrrrrrrrrr.

It is reprehensible for sure Borndem!

Oh btw you asked me the other day how I was feeling and I was feeling so bad at that time I didn't even have the energy to post back. Sorry for my bad manners.:blushing: But I did finally go to the doctor and I have four fractured ribs and I also bruised my spleen so it has been a really tough go so I haven't posted a lot in the past few days.

I have read all the posts though and I sure have missed interacting with all of you throughout the trial day.

I am getting better though............slowly. (sigh):banghead:

So hopefully tomorrow I will be here while the trial is going on.

IMO

Isabelle
11-02-2011, 09:49 PM
Ooooohhhh Yesssssssssss! No offense to the brilliant JP in the slightest, but at least HE gets it. That little part should take care of those jurors wondering about that aspect of possible guilt. It might just point that potential "doubter" in the correct direction!!

A Victory for the People on that one, folks!!

Thanks, Talina, for finding that tidbit!!:great:

Decision by JP on he level of genius. So glad he is allowing that. After all that would be the 'negligent' part of the charge.

Isabelle
11-02-2011, 09:52 PM
And I think, as someone said earlier, that CM used that same slit bag night after night. Yuck. If this routine had persisted beyond the 25th, MJ might well have died from sepsis. Seriously. What a &!(% +~(% that man was to Michael Jackson. Grrrrrrrrrrr.


Don't know that the same saline bags uses over and over to hold the propofol bottle would cause infection, though it is possible. I was concerned that Murray may have used propofol that was open more than 24 hours and may have caused symptoms Michael had the weeks before; he may have been strong enough to shake it off. I just can't comprehend what Murray did. How absolutely awful for his mother and family to know these things. So very sad.

Isabelle
11-02-2011, 09:53 PM
It is reprehensible for sure Borndem!

Oh btw you asked me the other day how I was feeling and I was feeling so bad at that time I didn't even have the energy to post back. Sorry for my bad manners.:blushing: But I did finally go to the doctor and I have four fractured ribs and I also bruised my spleen so it has been a really tough go so I haven't posted a lot in the past few days.

I have read all the posts though and I sure have missed interacting with all of you throughout the trial day.

I am getting better though............slowly. (sigh):banghead:

So hopefully tomorrow I will be here while the trial is going on.

IMO

Oh my goodness girl! Good thing you didn't puncture a lung or spleen. I hope he gave you some meds so you can rest well at night. Sleep is when healing happens! Bless you.

borndem
11-02-2011, 09:55 PM
Dr. Conrad Murray DA David Walgren ‘Bringing Sexy Back’ To The Courtroom

Walgren has impressed courthouse onlookers with his impressive legal skills and professionalism. However, it's his JFK Jr. resemblance that has inspired a YouTube video montage of Walgren set to Justin Timberlake's hit, Sexy Back.

Walgren is happily married to Deputy District Attorney Nicol Walgren, and the couple have two children.

Take a look at David Walgren bringing Sexy Back below:

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:


http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/10/conrad-murray-da-david-walgren-bringing-sexy-back-courtroom


Whew, :bowdown: blue, thanks!!

:hot: It's 45 degrees outside, but it's hot :hot: in here!!! I enjoyed every minute of it :blushing:. The video was perfect to match his actions...and that little spiff of hair :heartbeat: at the front of his hairline, stickin' right up there :hot:. Thanks. <pant, pant> :hot:


:sigh::sigh:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

oceanblueeyes
11-02-2011, 09:58 PM
Oh my goodness girl! Good thing you didn't puncture a lung or spleen. I hope he gave you some meds so you can rest well at night. Sleep is when healing happens! Bless you.

Thank you so much Isa.

He said it could take up to two months to completely heal.

He did say I was very healthy though and thought they would mend just fine.

Yes he gave me meds to sleep. That is one of the reasons I decided to go ahead and go to the doctor because I was so exhausted from lack of sleep.

IMO

borndem
11-02-2011, 10:38 PM
It is reprehensible for sure Borndem!

Oh btw you asked me the other day how I was feeling and I was feeling so bad at that time I didn't even have the energy to post back. Sorry for my bad manners.:blushing: But I did finally go to the doctor and I have four fractured ribs and I also bruised my spleen so it has been a really tough go so I haven't posted a lot in the past few days.

I have read all the posts though and I sure have missed interacting with all of you throughout the trial day.

I am getting better though............slowly. (sigh):banghead:

So hopefully tomorrow I will be here while the trial is going on.

IMO

Wow, ocean, bless your little pea pickin' er, ah, spleen. Man, that sounds awful. Your spleen. No wonder you felt so bad -- sorry for dwelling on it, but I am amazed that your were able to do anything at all. Even a deep breath hurts. Whew. Bad. No wonder you could not sleep. Dayam.

But so glad you're improving, Little Girl. I (this is no contest) bruised 2 ribs (Docs in a box), but they didn't have a lot of pity for poor, poor, pitiful ME, dammmit. But I did get 6 Tylenol w/codeine to sleep at night and that does the trick. This is the 3rd time I've pizzzzed off my ribs -- and it wasn't like I was baling hay or laying bricks (or laying anything for that matter) -- I was bending down to get the NY Times off the driveway from my car (duh). It did take my breath & bring tears to my eyes, but I've been moving about the house, etc., okay. What a drag it is gettin' old.

Glad, glad, glad you're better! We need your smarts & your wit for this last lap.

And, BTW, your remarks about a possible week of jury discussion might not be out of the question. Sometimes a juror can be a bit slow on the uptake, or just scared to do the "wrong thing," and that might slow it down a bit. But IS or something-or-other said that several of those jurors had been on superior court trials in the past -- one of them, several times. So that might help, too. And the biochemist. Since this is not a not-guilty vs. 20 --30 years type deal, perhaps it won't take so long....

Health to you, my friend. Sweet dreams tonight I wish for you. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

outofstatelawyer
11-02-2011, 11:12 PM
Thank you so much Isa.

He said it could take up to two months to completely heal.

He did say I was very healthy though and thought they would mend just fine.

Yes he gave me meds to sleep. That is one of the reasons I decided to go ahead and go to the doctor because I was so exhausted from lack of sleep.

IMO

Yikes! Hope you feel better soon!

And, if you need something to help you sleep, lay off the propofol! :innocent:

peace9274
11-03-2011, 12:41 AM
It is reprehensible for sure Borndem!

Oh btw you asked me the other day how I was feeling and I was feeling so bad at that time I didn't even have the energy to post back. Sorry for my bad manners.:blushing: But I did finally go to the doctor and I have four fractured ribs and I also bruised my spleen so it has been a really tough go so I haven't posted a lot in the past few days.

I have read all the posts though and I sure have missed interacting with all of you throughout the trial day.

I am getting better though............slowly. (sigh):banghead:

So hopefully tomorrow I will be here while the trial is going on.

IMO

Oh My Gosh, oceanblueeyes... I knew it was bad and that you were in a lot of pain,
but.... wowwweee..... 4 ribs fractured... and a bruised spleen!!! Whoa!
Now that IS a lot of pain to endure!

I'm so glad you went to the doctor's and got something for pain & to help you sleep.

I hope you get better each day, even if it's just a little better each day!
My thoughts & prayers are with you!

AND PLEASE... do not over-do..... anything at all!! Just get plenty of rest so those
ribs and spleen heal quickly & the way they're s'posed to!! :cupcake:

:rose::rose::rose:

Talina
11-03-2011, 02:19 AM
It is reprehensible for sure Borndem!

Oh btw you asked me the other day how I was feeling and I was feeling so bad at that time I didn't even have the energy to post back. Sorry for my bad manners.:blushing: But I did finally go to the doctor and I have four fractured ribs and I also bruised my spleen so it has been a really tough go so I haven't posted a lot in the past few days.

I have read all the posts though and I sure have missed interacting with all of you throughout the trial day.

I am getting better though............slowly. (sigh):banghead:

So hopefully tomorrow I will be here while the trial is going on.

IMO

OMG!!! :panic: I'm so glad you finally went to the doctor. Poor thing. I sure hope you get better soon. :rose:

Talina
11-03-2011, 02:28 AM
:Banane35::toastred::toast:

Here's hoping that Walgren got a good night's sleep and is loaded for bear with his closing argument. :biggrin:

Smelly Squirrel
11-03-2011, 06:17 AM
Just watched the last day of testimony, and it was most shocking day of the whole trial for me. I gotta say I am appalled at Dr. White. I was believing him about how the urine level was too low to have been from a propofol infusion (it wouldn't have changed Murray's guilt for me, but the question of precipitating cause is a key point of interest). White based his opinion on a certain paper from 1988. I wondered why Shafer or the state never addressed this, and I was thinking they goofed. But after hearing Shafer in rebuttal, it turns out White was not only misrepresenting the article in the first place (it only a gave an upper limit not anything precise), there have been articles published since that give a better reference for what they're looking at, and in fact a 2002 paper shows that the urine level at autopsy meant there had to have been a long infusion of high dose, and not a couple of injections as the defense is arguing.

I wish there was some way to sanction him. Hopefully, he will be shunned by colleagues. I am so disgusted right now. That other scientist who made the model for him is on my list too.

Talina
11-03-2011, 06:32 AM
Just watched the last day of testimony, and it was most shocking day of the whole trial for me. I gotta say I am appalled at Dr. White. I was believing him about how the urine level was too low to have been from a propofol infusion (it wouldn't have changed Murray's guilt for me, but the question of precipitating cause is a key point of interest). White based his opinion on a certain paper from 1988. I wondered why Shafer or the state never addressed this, and I was thinking they goofed. But after hearing Shafer in rebuttal, it turns out White was not only misrepresenting the article in the first place (it only a gave an upper limit not anything precise), there have been articles published since that give a better reference for what they're looking at, and in fact a 2002 paper shows that the urine level at autopsy meant there had to have been a long infusion of high dose, and not a couple of injections as the defense is arguing.

I wish there was some way to sanction him. Hopefully, he will be shunned by colleagues. I am so disgusted right now. That other scientist who made the model for him is on my list too.

During Walgen's cross examination of Dr. White, he tried several times to ask Dr. White if he had seen this newer 2002 paper and Dr. White said he wasn't familiar with it. When Walgren tried to then question him about it, he hid behind the "I didn't prepare the models" tune and defense objected to specific questions about the 2002 paper since Dr. White had already said he wasn't familiar with it. The judge sustained the objections.

I was so glad to see Dr. Shafer get back up on the stand for rebuttal. He totally wiped out Dr. White's entire testimony. IMO

Smelly Squirrel
11-03-2011, 06:39 AM
That's true, Walgren did try to ask about the newer papers, but you know, I don't think Walgren understood the scientific nuances well enough to nail White on his own, so he kind of let it go, probably knowing he'll get Shafer back on the stand anyway. Shafer is very convincing. He explains the issues well for a lay audience. And he was doing it without pay. Very refreshing to see that.

Talina
11-03-2011, 06:41 AM
That's true, Walgren did try to ask about the newer papers, but you know, I don't think Walgren understood the scientific nuances well enough to nail White on his own, so he kind of let it go, probably knowing he'll get Shafer back on the stand anyway. Shafer is very convincing. He explains the issues well for a lay audience. And he was doing it without pay. Very refreshing to see that.

So true about Dr. Shafer. He didn't seem to need to impress anyone with big scientific words and was very good at explaining this complicated medical testimony in ways that a layman could understand.

I would have loved to have him as a teacher in my science classes. I'd have probably done much better in them than I did. :)

Smelly Squirrel
11-03-2011, 07:00 AM
Yeah, he was my favorite witness. He's so believable. You can see he'd have testified for the defense if he saw the evidence that way.

CarolinaMoon
11-03-2011, 07:34 AM
It is reprehensible for sure Borndem!

Oh btw you asked me the other day how I was feeling and I was feeling so bad at that time I didn't even have the energy to post back. Sorry for my bad manners.:blushing: But I did finally go to the doctor and I have four fractured ribs and I also bruised my spleen so it has been a really tough go so I haven't posted a lot in the past few days.

I have read all the posts though and I sure have missed interacting with all of you throughout the trial day.

I am getting better though............slowly. (sigh):banghead:

So hopefully tomorrow I will be here while the trial is going on.

IMO

Reading here this morning to catch up before closings today and came across this. Major ouchie! I'm glad you saw the doctor and got some sleep meds. I hope you are feeling well enough to watch all day and grace us with some posts. Now, you know exactly why you hurt so much and know it will be better in the near future.

borndem
11-03-2011, 08:45 AM
===========> Attention: TxLady2 !!!!!!! <============

<drumroll, please!!!>


Good Morning, Fellow Walgren Droolers!!! Especially that one from the Lone Star State:

Speaking of stars, I am re-posting oceanblueeyes' discovery of The Man!
It's a great funky tribute to the 1st Chair Deputy Prosecutor, our McSteamy. It'll warm you up better than a cup of hot coffee or tea!

It's a must for a little off-beat prep for today's court proceedings. Find a cold towel and click!

Again, many thanks to our own oceanblueeyes!!
----------------------------------------------------------------
-- Originally posted by oceanblueeyes --

Dr. Conrad Murray DA David Walgren ‘Bringing Sexy Back’ To The Courtroom

Walgren has impressed courthouse onlookers with his impressive legal skills and professionalism. However, it's his JFK Jr. resemblance that has inspired a YouTube video montage of Walgren set to Justin Timberlake's hit, Sexy Back.

Walgren is happily married to Deputy District Attorney Nicol Walgren, and the couple have two children.

Take a look at David Walgren bringing Sexy Back below:

:floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusive...back-courtroom (http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/10/conrad-murray-da-david-walgren-bringing-sexy-back-courtroom)

oceanblueeyes
11-03-2011, 08:49 AM
Wow, ocean, bless your little pea pickin' er, ah, spleen. Man, that sounds awful. Your spleen. No wonder you felt so bad -- sorry for dwelling on it, but I am amazed that your were able to do anything at all. Even a deep breath hurts. Whew. Bad. No wonder you could not sleep. Dayam.

But so glad you're improving, Little Girl. I (this is no contest) bruised 2 ribs (Docs in a box), but they didn't have a lot of pity for poor, poor, pitiful ME, dammmit. But I did get 6 Tylenol w/codeine to sleep at night and that does the trick. This is the 3rd time I've pizzzzed off my ribs -- and it wasn't like I was baling hay or laying bricks (or laying anything for that matter) -- I was bending down to get the NY Times off the driveway from my car (duh). It did take my breath & bring tears to my eyes, but I've been moving about the house, etc., okay. What a drag it is gettin' old.

Glad, glad, glad you're better! We need your smarts & your wit for this last lap.

And, BTW, your remarks about a possible week of jury discussion might not be out of the question. Sometimes a juror can be a bit slow on the uptake, or just scared to do the "wrong thing," and that might slow it down a bit. But IS or something-or-other said that several of those jurors had been on superior court trials in the past -- one of them, several times. So that might help, too. And the biochemist. Since this is not a not-guilty vs. 20 --30 years type deal, perhaps it won't take so long....

Health to you, my friend. Sweet dreams tonight I wish for you. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

Good morning Boredem and Everyone!:seeya:

THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR ALL OF YOUR WELL WISHES. IT IS SO APPRECIATED. YOU ALL ARE LIKE A PART OF MY FAMILY TO ME.

I'm here, but as my sweet aunt use to say 'I'm still kicking but just not too high!':floorlaugh:

Oh gosh Boredem that is scary about your rib encounters. I know it leaves you a little worried to make any sudden moves.

Now I am a girl :) that will pick up something heavy at any given time but that sure isn't going to happen again anytime soon even though I didn't hurt my ribs that way but I know I will really watch what I do more carefully from now on.

Now back to the main topic at hand.:)

Is anyone excited this morning? I am. This is like the grand finale and I think we are going to see a great closing.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
11-03-2011, 08:56 AM
Yeah, he was my favorite witness. He's so believable. You can see he'd have testified for the defense if he saw the evidence that way.

Exactly. He is an honorable man. He is not a 'bought' man and would have given his honest opinion no matter which side called him.

He was even gracious enough to help the DT out when they asked.

I fell in 'love' with Dr. Shafer. It makes me feel good to know there are great people out there like him.

IMO

Talina
11-03-2011, 08:58 AM
I've opened up a thread for today's posts:

Conrad Murray Trial - Closing Arguments 11-3-11 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Good morning everyone!

oceanblueeyes
11-03-2011, 09:05 AM
===========> Attention: TxLady2 !!!!!!! <============

<drumroll, please!!!>


Good Morning, Fellow Walgren Droolers!!! Especially that one from the Lone Star State:

Speaking of stars, I am re-posting oceanblueeyes' discovery of The Man!
It's a great funky tribute to the 1st Chair Deputy Prosecutor, our McSteamy. It'll warm you up better than a cup of hot coffee or tea!

It's a must for a little off-beat prep for today's court proceedings. Find a cold towel and click!

Again, many thanks to our own oceanblueeyes!!
----------------------------------------------------------------
-- Originally posted by oceanblueeyes --

Dr. Conrad Murray DA David Walgren ‘Bringing Sexy Back’ To The Courtroom

Walgren has impressed courthouse onlookers with his impressive legal skills and professionalism. However, it's his JFK Jr. resemblance that has inspired a YouTube video montage of Walgren set to Justin Timberlake's hit, Sexy Back.

Walgren is happily married to Deputy District Attorney Nicol Walgren, and the couple have two children.

Take a look at David Walgren bringing Sexy Back below:

:floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusive...back-courtroom (http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/10/conrad-murray-da-david-walgren-bringing-sexy-back-courtroom)

:great::great::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

While we are waiting watch this video. There is so very cool shots of him in this one.

David's Fans!

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/10/conrad-murray-da-david-walgren-bringing-sexy-back-courtroom

borndem
11-03-2011, 11:17 AM
I've opened up a thread for today's posts:

Conrad Murray Trial - Closing Arguments 11-3-11 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153519)

Good morning everyone!


Good Morning People,:seeya: and a special thanks http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gifto you, Talina, for your fine thread-work for us!

"He liked to push the propofol himself" (or close) -- The DT needs to be careful if they use that one....

So why, Doctor, didn't you think about making that possibility impossible? -----> Why didn't You hide the IV and the propofol and the syringe (which by then, according to you, wasn't needed) before you walked out on him?

You, big news, were just a bit late on the uptake, and you took the propofol bottles and IV and hid them just a bit too late, didn't ya?? You, his caregiver...

Shame on you, Conrad Murray, Shame on you.