"Jersey" and MW #2 [Archive] - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Salem

11-02-2011, 11:45 PM

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norest4thewicked

11-02-2011, 11:50 PM

Here is the photo of Jersey in the height mugshot, for the person who was asking.

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Lisa%20Irwin%20%20-MO-/Jersey-JohnnyTanko.jpg

RANCH

11-02-2011, 11:54 PM

Here is the photo of Jersey in the height mugshot, for the person who was asking.

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm166/crankycrankerson/Lisa%20Irwin%20%20-MO-/Jersey-JohnnyTanko.jpg

Wow he's tall. 6' 5" is pretty tall.

norest4thewicked

11-02-2011, 11:56 PM

Wow he's tall. 6' 5" is pretty tall.

Haha...well we have all the people who know him say that he is short. The tallest we have heard him to be is 5'8," so we can be pretty sure that he is not 6'5".

norest4thewicked

11-02-2011, 11:58 PM

And, I didn't mean to laugh at you, RANCH. I thought you were kidding about the height. I'm soooo ready for bed! lol

Mountain_Kat

11-02-2011, 11:59 PM

Haha...well we have all the people who know him say that he is short. The tallest we have heard him to be is 5'8," so we can be pretty sure that he is not 6'5".

Homeless basketball player. ;)

RANCH

11-03-2011, 12:00 AM

Haha...well we have all the people who know him say that he is short. The tallest we have heard him to be is 5'8," so we can be pretty sure that he is not 6'5".

Your right. He looks like 5' 5" to me on this mug shot. That's short.

norest4thewicked

11-03-2011, 12:00 AM

Homeless basketball player. ;)

Lol:floorlaugh:

norest4thewicked

11-03-2011, 12:01 AM

Your right. He looks like 5' 5" to me on this mug shot. That's short.

Yep...and that is proof right there of his height. And, the first couple who saw the man carrying the baby was described as tall and thin.

jjenny

11-03-2011, 12:02 AM

Wow he's tall. 6' 5" is pretty tall.

Clearly it's 5'5" and not 6'5".

Pensfan

11-03-2011, 12:08 AM

Clearly it's 5'5" and not 6'5".
Do you remember the footage of the much taller, thin police officer trying to get in the front window of Jeremy's? He eventually had to get another officer to help him climb inside. Jersey couldn't have climbed in that window without a lot of assistance. Jersey didn't climb in that window, IMO.

AngelWings444

11-03-2011, 12:17 AM

MY POST:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelWings444
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe the woman "Lisa" saw the guy walking down the street. I believe her story may have evolved to that version, but didn't her husband/boyfriend see the guy carrying the baby and refuse to go on camera?

Or, am I losing it?

RESPONSE BY CathyinTexas
CathyinTexas
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 443

She has been interviewed numerous times now. In one I saw she said that her husband usually gets in his car and leaves, but this time she noticed he was standing by his car looking at something down the street. He was following something with his gaze, and she demonstrated at the window how she looked out of the blinds and saw the man, and gave her own description of what she saw.
----------------------------------

I got my fingers slammed in the door. :floorlaugh:

ChrisinTexas - I know she has been interview many, many times. But, I don't think she PERSONALLY saw the man who was carrying the baby. I believe she has been repeating what her husband claimed he say. I may be totally wrong, but if I remember it correctly, he wouldn't be interviewed on camera, so she spoke FOR him, never being a witness herself.

norest4thewicked

11-03-2011, 12:19 AM

Do you remember the footage of the much taller, thin police officer trying to get in the front window of Jeremy's? He eventually had to get another officer to help him climb inside. Jersey couldn't have climbed in that window without a lot of assistance. Jersey didn't climb in that window, IMO.

I agree! I know a lot of people want to pin this on an outsider, and Jersey seems to be the easy choice because of his apparent status. If Jersey is involved, it's not as an outsider, and he didn't come through that window.

jjenny

11-03-2011, 12:20 AM

She claims she personally saw this man with a baby through the blinds on her window.

Dr. Know?

11-03-2011, 12:21 AM

Jersey's New Jersey prison record. Also there's a picture of him with long hair. This was in maybe 1997 or 98.

John Tanko
SBI Number: 000425490B
Sentenced as: Tanko, John
Race: White
Ethnicity: N/A
Sex: Male
Hair Color: Black
Eye Color: Brown
Height: 5'6"
Weight: 160 lbs.
Birth Date: March 19, 1969
Admission Date: May 26, 1998
Current Facility: Released from RFSP
Current Max Release Date: N/A
Current Parole Eligibility Date: N/A

CURRENT

He's not tall nor thin for his height. I'd call him possibly short and stocky at that age. He wouldn't get taller at that age either.

https://www6.state.nj.us/DOC_Inmate/details?x=1060349&n=0

This link times out so if it does go to home page and accept their terms and enter his name again. John Tanko.

norest4thewicked

11-03-2011, 12:21 AM

MY POST:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelWings444
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe the woman "Lisa" saw the guy walking down the street. I believe her story may have evolved to that version, but didn't her husband/boyfriend see the guy carrying the baby and refuse to go on camera?

Or, am I losing it?

RESPONSE BY CathyinTexas
CathyinTexas
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 443

She has been interviewed numerous times now. In one I saw she said that her husband usually gets in his car and leaves, but this time she noticed he was standing by his car looking at something down the street. He was following something with his gaze, and she demonstrated at the window how she looked out of the blinds and saw the man, and gave her own description of what she saw.
----------------------------------

I got my fingers slammed in the door. :floorlaugh:

ChrisinTexas - I know she has been interview many, many times. But, I don't think she PERSONALLY saw the man who was carrying the baby. I believe she has been repeating what her husband claimed he say. I may be totally wrong, but if I remember it correctly, he wouldn't be interviewed on camera, so she spoke FOR him, never being a witness herself.

My thoughts too, but they keep saying "three witnesses" and on her video with local media, she was standing by her window and looking out as she talked, as if she could see. I don't think that there is any way that she could have seen that person in any sort of detail.

In da Middle

11-03-2011, 12:21 AM

I'm thinking the bird of a feather kind of thought like somebody close to Jersey and his thieving ways could very well be involved. I wonder if he was still staying at the house across the street at this time and how aware they were of his habits.

norest4thewicked

11-03-2011, 12:23 AM

Jersey's New Jersey prison record. Also there's a picture of him with long hair. This was in maybe 1997 or 98.

John Tanko
SBI Number: 000425490B
Sentenced as: Tanko, John
Race: White
Ethnicity: N/A
Sex: Male
Hair Color: Black
Eye Color: Brown
Height: 5'6"
Weight: 160 lbs.
Birth Date: March 19, 1969
Admission Date: May 26, 1998
Current Facility: Released from RFSP
Current Max Release Date: N/A
Current Parole Eligibility Date: N/A

CURRENT

He's not tall nor thin for his height. I'd call him possibly short and stocky at that age. He wouldn't get taller at that age either.

https://www6.state.nj.us/DOC_Inmate/details?x=1060349&n=0

This link times out so if it does go to home page and accept their terms and enter his name again. John Tanko.

And, they gave him 3/4 of an inch in that info because he's clearly just a little over 5'5".

norest4thewicked

11-03-2011, 12:24 AM

I'm thinking the bird of a feather kind of thought like somebody close to Jersey and his thieving ways could very well be involved. I wonder if he was still staying at the house across the street at this time and how aware they were of his habits.

My understanding of the info is that he was asked to leave the house when MW left, but I might be wrong on that.

jjenny

11-03-2011, 12:25 AM

And, they gave him 3/4 of an inch in that info because he's clearly just a little over 5'5".

Sure did.
:floorlaugh:

norest4thewicked

11-03-2011, 12:27 AM

I thought it was funny that the neighbor, MH, who was talking about Jersey said he was "about her height - about 5'8." It's a known fact that both men and women exaggerate their height...so she must be only 5'5" too. Not that it matters..but I am getting looney and I digress...:crazy:

curiousjo

11-03-2011, 12:29 AM

The female neighbor & motocycle dude described man carrying baby to be 5'6" - 5'7", wearing white t shirt. She said he was tall & thin(yet this height) - while the dude described a "built" male. I believe a reporter showed both eye witnesses photos of suspects and both chose the same guy -but LE asked reporter to not reveal name. Watch the HLN Show hosted by Vinney today for clips of these 2 people describing man, video of path mystery man with baby took, etc

AngelWings444

11-03-2011, 12:29 AM

She claims she personally saw this man with a baby through the blinds on her window.

I went back to the beginning. Although some links are gone :innocent: here is one of the original articles. Her husband, not her, claims he saw the man with the baby. Why isn't he willing to go on camera, and why is she speaking for him, acting like SHE saw it for herself? :waitasec: Another 15 minutes should be up. :floorlaugh:

http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/crime/neighbor-says-husband-saw-man-carrying-baby-wearing-only-a-diaper

norest4thewicked

11-03-2011, 12:30 AM

The female neighbor & motocycle dude described man carrying baby to be 5'6" - 5'7", wearing white t shirt. She said he was tall & thin(yet this height) - while the dude described a "built" male. I believe a reporter showed both eye witnesses phots and the both chose the same guy -but LE asked reporter to not say name. Watch the HLN Show hosted by Vinney today for clips of these 2 people describing man, video of path mystery man with baby took, etc

WOW! :wow: That's news to me!

vlpate

11-03-2011, 12:38 AM

In answer to the Reactive Attachment Disorder link so kindly provided by Salem....thank you :) You are correct in pointing out this is a disorder found in children, usually under the age of five.

The disorder manifests itself into other psychosis if not treated. The post portraying MW as someone with this disorder because she likes pyromania, a band, on her FB page and she likes Clown Possee wouldn't attribute any psychosis to her at all.

I'm not sure how we (katshep), would know if MW gorges on food, has an interest in gore, lies daily about obvious things, or is cruel to animals....?

She seems to be a regular person whose life is in the terlet and she's having an "omg wth" week. And when she was a child her mother abandoned her - so sad. We all have our bag of childhood rocks....most of us anyway.

iamnotagolem

11-03-2011, 12:38 AM

I think "thin" is a very relative. Someone my mom would describe as "thin" could be someone who is overweight/borderline obese. Keep in mind that obesity is over 30% here in the US, so what many now consider "thin" could actually be overweight.

jjenny

11-03-2011, 12:40 AM

The female neighbor & motocycle dude described man carrying baby to be 5'6" - 5'7", wearing white t shirt. She said he was tall & thin(yet this height) - while the dude described a "built" male. I believe a reporter showed both eye witnesses photos of suspects and both chose the same guy -but LE asked reporter to not reveal name. Watch the HLN Show hosted by Vinney today for clips of these 2 people describing man, video of path mystery man with baby took, etc

That's false. They didn't pick the same man. When reporter showed the neighbor lady the photos she said she doesn't recognize the man at all. And neither do they describe the same man. Not even close.

curiousjo

11-03-2011, 12:50 AM

I beg to differ. The description was almost identical and I do believe an HLN show discussed the reporter told not to reveal the person I. D.

jjenny

11-03-2011, 12:51 AM

I beg to differ. The description was almost identicle and I do believe an HLN show discussed the reporter told not to reveal the person I. D.

The descriptions are completely different and the neighbor lady did not recognize the photo shown to her at all. The neighbor lady described tall, bald and skinny guy wearing dark pants. The motorcycle guy now claims the guy was wearing "all white."

vlpate

11-03-2011, 12:53 AM

Sure did.
:floorlaugh:

How the heck would he get up and into the window? Would he even be able to see over the sill?

AngelWings444

11-03-2011, 12:55 AM

How the heck would he get up and into the window? Would he even be able to see over the sill?
:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

AngelWings444

11-03-2011, 12:57 AM

The descriptions are completely different and the neighbor lady did not recognize the photo shown to her at all. The neighbor lady described tall, bald and skinny guy wearing dark pants. The motorcycle guy now claims the guy was wearing "all white."
The motorcycle guy said the guy he say had a white vest on too. :floorlaugh:

BTW, the neighbor "lady" didn't see the guy herself, she is speaking for her husband who refuses to be on camera. I remember his from the backside, leaning on a car, in the beginning. She has now leading everyone to believe she saw it for herself. Unusual people. :innocent:

jjenny

11-03-2011, 01:00 AM

She showed the reporter how she saw the tall bald and skinny man through the blinds on her window, so she is most certainly saying she saw this guy herself.

iamnotagolem

11-03-2011, 01:01 AM

Honestly, I don't believe either of the "sightings". My guess is they wanted their 15 min of fame, so they described someone, then didn't pick anyone out of a line up. MOO

jjenny

11-03-2011, 01:02 AM

Motorcycle guy claims he picked someone (not Jersey) from a line up.
I don't believe the neighbor lady picked anyone. It doesn't appear she was ever shown a line up (probably because it doesn't appear she got a good look at the face).

Amster

11-03-2011, 01:06 AM

Motorcycle guy says the guy had salt and pepper hair....he adds something new everyday...

Wendy101

11-03-2011, 01:06 AM

OK - so who reported the sighting that has the description of the "built" male? Which sighting was that?

RabidBadger

11-03-2011, 01:07 AM

The female neighbor & motocycle dude described man carrying baby to be 5'6" - 5'7", wearing white t shirt. She said he was tall & thin(yet this height) - while the dude described a "built" male. I believe a reporter showed both eye witnesses photos of suspects and both chose the same guy -but LE asked reporter to not reveal name. Watch the HLN Show hosted by Vinney today for clips of these 2 people describing man, video of path mystery man with baby took, etc

Can you please provide links to back up your claims here? Specifically where both witnesses described the same man, chose the same man out of a line up?

jjenny

11-03-2011, 01:10 AM

Can you please provide links to back up your claims here? Specifically where both witnesses described the same man, chose the same man out of a line up?

Motorcycle guy claimed the man with the baby had a well build body, and was "all dressed in white." The neighbor lady claimed the man was tall "at least 5'8" or taller, and had dark pants on. Those descriptions are no where near close.

AngelWings444

11-03-2011, 01:11 AM

Motorcycle guy claims he picked someone (not Jersey) from a line up.
I don't believe the neighbor lady picked anyone. It doesn't appear she was ever shown a line up (probably because it doesn't appear she got a good look at the face).

Probably because she is reporting information for her husband and never saw the man for herself. :waitasec:

http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/crime/neighbor-says-husband-saw-man-carrying-baby-wearing-only-a-diaper

curiousjo

11-03-2011, 01:11 AM

Sure- watch Vinney show aired today. He plays clips of eye witnesses describing the mystery man.

jjenny

11-03-2011, 01:12 AM

OK - so who reported the sighting that has the description of the "built" male? Which sighting was that?

Motorcycle guy claimed that.

jjenny

11-03-2011, 01:13 AM

Sure- watch Vinney show aired today. He plays clips of eye witnesses describing the mystery man.
In what universe do these people describe the same man?

RabidBadger

11-03-2011, 01:14 AM

Sure- watch Vinney show aired today. He plays clips of eye witnesses describing the mystery man.

We all watched it, and my memory is distinctly different. Which is why I asked for links. Wherein both witnesses identify the same man. Thanks in advance.

jjenny

11-03-2011, 01:26 AM

We all watched it, and my memory is distinctly different. Which is why I asked for links. Wherein both witnesses identify the same man. Thanks in advance.

They clearly don't describe the same man. Motorcycle man now claims it was well build male all dressed in white, and with hair. The neighbor lady claims it was tall bald skinny man in t-shirt and dark pants. How can this be possibly construed as the same? Unless one goes by "he looka like a man."

Inspector Gidget

11-03-2011, 01:27 AM

Homeless basketball player. ;)

I haven't laughed all day until I started reading here.Yall just crack me up.I can honestly say I'm glad I don't live in that neighborhood.It sounds like a real circus with clowns and all.Do any of these people know where baby Lisa is?

:rollercoaster:

powayparent

11-03-2011, 01:30 AM

IMO the witnesses believe they saw what they saw, what I don't believe is that what they saw is what they think they saw.

If that makes sense :)

hambirg

11-03-2011, 01:37 AM

See how convoluted it gets?

That's why I asked about the tall, skinny, balding man with baby description. I thought that was what I had first heard about the first sighting. And my mind, when I heard that, thought of JI, or possibly several other men that could fit that description in the neighborhood, but NOT short Jersey. It looks like the story has changed to a height. . .5'8"ish. But I don't put a lot of weight on people sizing up other people's heights. I think short, tall, etc would be more telling. JMHO

I tend to give more credence to the first sighting, just because of time and proximity. But it seems the "Lisa" is now kind of inserting herself into it too. So who knows.

I'm just having a hard time buying the timeline and supposed path of an abductor Jersey. The sightings don't sound like they match. The poor blob at BP was probably the local Denny's dishwasher getting off his shift (btw, I have no idea if there is a local Denny's, just using that as a figure of speech). There is too much time between the points. If we are to believe Jersey made the 8:30pm phone call to MW then that means that he would most likely have BL for the next 7.5hrs before he is seen by MT. I just don't know if I buy that.

dovebar

11-03-2011, 01:39 AM

Even IF the descriptions are different, that just says to me that there were several people involved - Jersey, and whoever he sold Lisa to.

IF DB failed the polygraph on a question like, "Do you know where Lisa is?", I believe it may be because she suspects she does - with Jersey, or someone he knows. She suspects she does know and that comes up as a lie when she doesn't want to say it because she has no proof - just a hunch or a feeling.

powayparent

11-03-2011, 01:46 AM

Even IF the descriptions are different, that just says to me that there were several people involved - Jersey, and whoever he sold Lisa to.

IF DB failed the polygraph on a question like, "Do you know where Lisa is?", I believe it may be because she suspects she does - with Jersey, or someone he knows. She suspects she does know and that comes up as a lie when she doesn't want to say it because she has no proof - just a hunch or a feeling.

So a live baby Lisa is carried through the streets in insufficient clothing and passed from person to person, with no one reporting a baby crying or distress. I'd like to believe it's true, but...

AngelWings444

11-03-2011, 01:48 AM

Even IF the descriptions are different, that just says to me that there were several people involved - Jersey, and whoever he sold Lisa to.

IF DB failed the polygraph on a question like, "Do you know where Lisa is?", I believe it may be because she suspects she does - with Jersey, or someone he knows. She suspects she does know and that comes up as a lie when she doesn't want to say it because she has no proof - just a hunch or a feeling.
So, we are going to blame a man who has be "cleared" by LE or "moved on" from, but the person who was drunk or may have blacked out (by her own admission), we are going to believe? All these random people, with different descriptions leads us to believe they were all involved in selling Lisa. WHAT? :silly:

SmoothOperator

11-03-2011, 01:52 AM

Tonight they interviewed the neighbor Mary that it is beside her home that the couple saw the man with baby walk onto their property.. The property that is shared between Mary and her next door neighbor is the short cut, cut thru that Jersey is known to use daily.. LE searched her home as well as property and the neighbor beside her who the man with the baby looked as thi he was walking thru the night in question.. She said that LE took actual foot molds of the shoe prints that were found in that area..

NG asked her what LE questioned her about and she said they specifically were asking did they see or notice anything out of the ordinary.. It was her response that piqued my curiosity.. Her response was that yes there was something out of the ordinary that night.. That her neighbor's sprinkler system was running late at night, much later than was usual.. She said by 11-11:30pm "Jersey" had obviously come around and finally cut off the sprinkler system.. IMO this just further fueling that Jersey was in this exact area.. A mere 5 houses down from baby Lisa's house, very late night on the night in question.. This is a totally unbiased neighbor that made this statement.. Lol.. NG as is par for the course for her she certainly doesn't like it when someone dares to state somethi g that isn't a direct slug in the parents face!! So as usual she didnt wanna hear chit about what this neighbor had to say.. Just didn't fit her theory of the case that she's so damn certain is absolute fact.. We'll see and time will eventually tell..*shrug*

hambirg

11-03-2011, 01:56 AM

Even IF the descriptions are different, that just says to me that there were several people involved - Jersey, and whoever he sold Lisa to.

IF DB failed the polygraph on a question like, "Do you know where Lisa is?", I believe it may be because she suspects she does - with Jersey, or someone he knows. She suspects she does know and that comes up as a lie when she doesn't want to say it because she has no proof - just a hunch or a feeling.

That just starts getting too complicated for me. When it is so much easier to say drunk DB does something to BL, discovers her dead sometime after SB goes home. Freaks. Gets PN, possibly JI to help her cover it up. The phone call to MW could have been DB, SB or PL calling to that house to get some wacky tabacky or pills. . . .xanax??? BL possible OD??? Phones go with BL so LE can't see contact numbers(not really thought through by drunk DB). For me, it just doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.

All MOO of course.

tink92

11-03-2011, 05:20 AM

Does MW's interview seem strange to anyone else? the way she was so tearful and gave us her "back story on abandonment" just raised a red flag to me.
It was almost as if we were seeing her remorse or regret and her defense. She seems in way above her head...maybe she didn't realise this would get so big?

I could be way off base..but I *think* if i was in her place I would be more stoic and maybe a bit annoyed angry that something i had nothing to do with i was being dragged into (if I was innocent) I really don't think I would be giving a poor me sob story about my childhood on national tv. (unless i was building a defense)

tink92

11-03-2011, 05:34 AM

Honestly, I don't believe either of the "sightings". My guess is they wanted their 15 min of fame, so they described someone, then didn't pick anyone out of a line up. MOO

i was sceptical of the sightings at first too. Iam still not sure about the motorcycle one..but How coincidental is it that the first sighting (which we got the very next day after this happened) happened to be of a man walking into the yard where we can place jersey that day AND the stolen cell calls jerseys ex.

At the time we heard of the first sighting (basically from day one)..we knew nothing about Jersey or MW. If this was someone just wanting their 15 minutes it is just too coincidental that they would pick the very yard Jersey was at to *say* they saw a man walking into that night.

Isn't jersey a burglar?...He would have known that house was empty?...I wonder if LE know if he broke into that house (the sprinkler house) that night?

That would fit inperfectly to the time line of dumpster fire and garage sighting if he spent a while at the sprinkler house.

21merc7

11-03-2011, 05:43 AM

I think "thin" is a very relative. Someone my mom would describe as "thin" could be someone who is overweight/borderline obese. Keep in mind that obesity is over 30% here in the US, so what many now consider "thin" could actually be overweight.

I agree, it is all subjective. My mother and sister are obese, they describe anyone under 300lbs as thin, skinny, in shape, built well.

I describe anyone taller than I am, 5'1", as tall. Don't ask me to give measurements, 'cause they will not be close to what a person really is.

Completely subjective to describe someone you do not know, and even more so, at night when only street lights are on. Including age and vision issues on that thought.

TobyWong*

11-03-2011, 05:56 AM

I wonder why MW is seemingly putting a road block up by pointing toward Jersey? What is her stake in this that she feels the need to help divert attention from the parents?
If MW was just a means to an end to get something that night, but then everyone went on their own way after the 8:30 phone call and transaction (IMO), what brings her back into the mix?

I wonder if MW was made aware of whatever happening to Baby Lisa because her number was in the phones and the parents gave her a heads up.?? And then she (MW) had the idea to frame Jersey. What if MW just took over and directed the whole cleanup?? Said one person go to this particular dumpster, torch some clothes (dont know whose or why yet). Sends JI out to walk Jerseys known path? 'Im not stuck on JI doing that. OR MW knew where Jersey was for awhile that day so was confident he was near enouigh to Baby Lisa's house that she could point to him??

IDK just trying to work this out.

21merc7

11-03-2011, 06:02 AM

I wonder why MW is seemingly putting a road block up by pointing toward Jersey? What is her stake in this that she feels the need to help divert attention from the parents?
If MW was just a means to an end to get something that night, but then everyone went on their own way after the 8:30 phone call and transaction (IMO), what brings her back into the mix?

MW was dating Jersey, so she could think this is payback for not being her boyfriend anymore.

I don't think she realizes, or maybe some small part does, that she is also suspect b/c of the phone involvement.

Perhaps the MW house has some illegal activities going on and she wants to shift blame to Jersey. Perhaps MW is involved in the disappearance of Lisa.

All I know is MW needs to stop talking to media, she is making it look worse for herself, all just to be on t.v.

TobyWong*

11-03-2011, 06:11 AM

I know where my couple of local homeless/drifter guys roam. And none of them are an ex of mine. I'd imagine alot of people knew of Jerseys path and he was supposedly at the neighbors doing the sprinklers.

TobyWong*

11-03-2011, 06:26 AM

I wonder how many adults really live w/ MW? I dont think there is 8 adults. I have no clue just wondering.

With MW insinuating that any one of those other people in that house could have answered the call from the parents phone, I'd think they would be out saying no way I did'nt touch that phone or I was'nt home that night. I'd be upset to be thrown into the mix for no reason.

Would anyone have a map or screen shot of MW's residence? you know just laying around...hahahah

StrayKat

11-03-2011, 06:41 AM

I am thinking maybe... he broke into their house thinking they weren't home since it was the first night of work for JI and with the vehicle being gone. May have walked into her room... startled her... she started crying....... JMO.
What he did in those two hours??? Maybe, that is why LE keeps going back and searching those woods.

As far as the pics there are two of him. And it took me a little while to realize that was the same person.

Tuffy

11-03-2011, 07:11 AM

I agree! I know a lot of people want to pin this on an outsider, and Jersey seems to be the easy choice because of his apparent status. If Jersey is involved, it's not as an outsider, and he didn't come through that window.

I've been away for a day, so this may have changed but...

Haven't the police said that they don't believe that Jersey is involved in Lisa's disappearance?

Cher352

11-03-2011, 07:38 AM

I've been away for a day, so this may have changed but...

Haven't the police said that they don't believe that Jersey is involved in Lisa's disappearance?

This 10/15 video with Capt Young stated that Jersey is not a suspect but who knows things may have changed since then.

http://www.kmbc.com/r-video/29498238/detail.html
(beginning at the 1:03 mark)

BetteDavisEyes

11-03-2011, 07:45 AM

Since there is more than one "eye witness" to a man out in the middle of the night carrying a baby wearing nothing more than a diaper and tee-shirt, maybe there was a hand-off from one party to another? I thought about this last night as I watched/listened to JVM and NG. Just noodlin'...

Donjeta

11-03-2011, 07:55 AM

If there is more than one person involved I'm very surprised that none of them has a vehicle to transport the baby. One of them at least had the presence of mind to dress her in a t-shirt.

Twelve of One

11-03-2011, 07:56 AM

This 10/15 video with Capt Young stated that Jersey is not a suspect but who knows things may have changed since then.

http://www.kmbc.com/r-video/29498238/detail.html
(beginning at the 1:03 mark)

Interesting! He goes on and on and on about how the guy is not involved, with his eyes a mile wide and then that huge Adam's apple gulp at 2:06. He seems so overly insistent that it becomes unconvincing. Strange. He could honestly be telling the truth but I wonder why it's so very important to him to convince listeners that JT isn't involved.

passionflower

11-03-2011, 08:10 AM

Interesting! He goes on and on and on about how the guy is not involved, with his eyes a mile wide and then that huge Adam's apple gulp at 2:06. He seems so overly insistent that it becomes unconvincing. Strange. He could honestly be telling the truth but I wonder why it's so very important to him to convince listeners that JT isn't involved.

or he knows something that we do not know and JT told something on someone! Something sad, was baby sold? transferred to a safer place?
This is so strange it happened while dad was at work for the first night.
A plan to get baby away from DB? and everything went BIG???
Could baby be hidden by someone JI knows? I do want to think Lisa is safe.

katshep

11-03-2011, 08:12 AM

In answer to the Reactive Attachment Disorder link so kindly provided by Salem....thank you :) You are correct in pointing out this is a disorder found in children, usually under the age of five.

The disorder manifests itself into other psychosis if not treated. The post portraying MW as someone with this disorder because she likes pyromania, a band, on her FB page and she likes Clown Possee wouldn't attribute any psychosis to her at all.

I'm not sure how we (katshep), would know if MW gorges on food, has an interest in gore, lies daily about obvious things, or is cruel to animals....?

She seems to be a regular person whose life is in the terlet and she's having an "omg wth" week. And when she was a child her mother abandoned her - so sad. We all have our bag of childhood rocks....most of us anyway.

There is quite a bit of empirical research on victims of parental kidnapping. MW admits she was the victim of such a crime. I am saying from the interviews I have seen with her, she manifests some traits of an untreated abducted child who most likely experienced reactive attachment disorder. I am not saying she has this, but this is a profile common to untreated abductees and she has some of those characteristics.

Fascination with gore: The Insane Clown Posse is all about gore. Have you seen the tee shirts with the kid running with the axe splattered with blood? Have you heard their lyrics? Are you familiar with the kinds of violent crimes that have been committed by Juggalos that have led the FBI to classify them as a violent gang? It is called psychopathic or horror rock for a reason. She self-identifies as a Juggalette and is seen on fb in gang attire.

Lying about obvious things: We see in her interviews that she is lying on camera about obvious things such as her presence in the Irwin neighborhood.

Eating Disorder. She is clearly overweight, indicative of an eating disorder.

Pyromania. She expresses an interest in pyromania on her fb page and dated someone she considered a pyromaniac.

Lack of eye contact. In interviews she does not maintain eye contact and engages in self-cuddling behavior.

The attachment disorder manifests before age 5. It does not go away. Untreated it morphs into an an antisocial personality. You should look into the books on the subject of parental abduction and the effects on children by authorities such as Stringer (1999), Boehler (sp?), Faulkner or Rand. I have used some of these people as expert witnesses in the past in numerous parental kidnapping cases, some of which had horrific endings.

I am not fabricating this. There is significant literature on this topic and it has been added to the DSM IV. MW admitted in a an interview that she is a victim of parental kidnapping. That status has consequences. I am outlining what those consequences are frequently found to be.

Jacie Estes

11-03-2011, 08:18 AM

MW was dating Jersey, so she could think this is payback for not being her boyfriend anymore.

I don't think she realizes, or maybe some small part does, that she is also suspect b/c of the phone involvement.

Perhaps the MW house has some illegal activities going on and she wants to shift blame to Jersey. Perhaps MW is involved in the disappearance of Lisa.

All I know is MW needs to stop talking to media, she is making it look worse for herself, all just to be on t.v.

The more MW talks the better it is, the police have info to compare. Her 'my mom abandoned us in Mexico' story was touching...NOT. :sick: If she thinks her drama queen commentary is helping her, it's not. I wonder if she has taken a poly?

IMHO

3doglady

11-03-2011, 08:23 AM

Interesting! He goes on and on and on about how the guy is not involved, with his eyes a mile wide and then that huge Adam's apple gulp at 2:06. He seems so overly insistent that it becomes unconvincing. Strange. He could honestly be telling the truth but I wonder why it's so very important to him to convince listeners that JT isn't involved.

I thought it was strange too. How would LE know so quickly that Jersey wasn't involved when this is supposed to be an on going investigation? If LE had all the answers there would have been an arrest. And why did LE initially disregard the 12:15 sighting? A baby is missing and LE disregards a baby sighting around the same time, same neighborhood, of a man going up the yard of a house that Jersey had worked at and broken into. I think LE developed their own theory early and blew off anything that didn't fit their theory. Now LE is trying to catch up and I hope it's not too late.

Twelve of One

11-03-2011, 08:30 AM

I thought it was strange too. How would LE know so quickly that Jersey wasn't involved when this is supposed to be an on going investigation? If LE had all the answers there would have been an arrest. And why did LE initially disregard the 12:15 sighting? A baby is missing and LE disregards a baby sighting around the same time, same neighborhood, of a man going up the yard of a house that Jersey had worked at and broken into. I think LE developed their own theory early and blew off anything that didn't fit their theory. Now LE is trying to catch up and I hope it's not too late.

Actually, seeing that interview now makes me re-think that abandoned house, too.

Jacie Estes

11-03-2011, 08:37 AM

Interesting! He goes on and on and on about how the guy is not involved, with his eyes a mile wide and then that huge Adam's apple gulp at 2:06. He seems so overly insistent that it becomes unconvincing. Strange. He could honestly be telling the truth but I wonder why it's so very important to him to convince listeners that JT isn't involved.

There may have been an investigation on going, concerning those who live in MW's house, when Lisa's abduction took place. Is Young 'saving' that investigation by citing 'no connection'? They found jersey and put him in jail [remember indamiddle said the police were asking about him in the hood], then we have MW coming into the story, with her inability to avoid cameras. It's like a rattlesnake's nest, lots of slithering and ick.

PlainJaneDoe

11-03-2011, 08:46 AM

There is quite a bit of empirical research on victims of parental kidnapping. MW admits she was the victim of such a crime. I am saying from the interviews I have seen with her, she manifests some traits of an untreated abducted child who most likely experienced reactive attachment disorder. I am not saying she has this, but this is a profile common to untreated abductees and she has some of those characteristics.

Fascination with gore: The Insane Clown Posse is all about gore. Have you seen the tee shirts with the kid running with the axe splattered with blood? Have you heard their lyrics? Are you familiar with the kinds of violent crimes that have been committed by Juggalos that have led the FBI to classify them as a violent gang? It is called psychopathic or horror rock for a reason. She self-identifies as a Juggalette and is seen on fb in gang attire.

Lying about obvious things: We see in her interviews that she is lying on camera about obvious things such as her presence in the Irwin neighborhood.

Eating Disorder. She is clearly overweight, indicative of an eating disorder.

Pyromania. She expresses an interest in pyromania on her fb page and dated someone she considered a pyromaniac.

Lack of eye contact. In interviews she does not maintain eye contact and engages in self-cuddling behavior.

The attachment disorder manifests before age 5. It does not go away. Untreated it morphs into an an antisocial personality. You should look into the books on the subject of parental abduction and the effects on children by authorities such as Stringer (1999), Boehler (sp?), Faulkner or Rand. I have used some of these people as expert witnesses in the past in numerous parental kidnapping cases, some of which had horrific endings.

I am not fabricating this. There is significant literature on this topic and it has been added to the DSM IV. MW admitted in a an interview that she is a victim of parental kidnapping. That status has consequences. I am outlining what those consequences are frequently found to be.

I don't doubt the research or most of your points. I do not believe that being overweight itself indicates an eating disorder, though.

Elley Mae

11-03-2011, 08:49 AM

this is interesting read

"Eyewitness misidentification is the single greatest cause of wrongful convictions nationwide, playing a role in more than 75% of convictions overturned through DNA testing."

Eyewitness identification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/mistakenid.html

frankie069

11-03-2011, 09:00 AM

There is quite a bit of empirical research on victims of parental kidnapping. MW admits she was the victim of such a crime. I am saying from the interviews I have seen with her, she manifests some traits of an untreated abducted child who most likely experienced reactive attachment disorder. I am not saying she has this, but this is a profile common to untreated abductees and she has some of those characteristics.

Fascination with gore: The Insane Clown Posse is all about gore. Have you seen the tee shirts with the kid running with the axe splattered with blood? Have you heard their lyrics? Are you familiar with the kinds of violent crimes that have been committed by Juggalos that have led the FBI to classify them as a violent gang? It is called psychopathic or horror rock for a reason. She self-identifies as a Juggalette and is seen on fb in gang attire.

Lying about obvious things: We see in her interviews that she is lying on camera about obvious things such as her presence in the Irwin neighborhood.

Eating Disorder. She is clearly overweight, indicative of an eating disorder.

Pyromania. She expresses an interest in pyromania on her fb page and dated someone she considered a pyromaniac.

Lack of eye contact. In interviews she does not maintain eye contact and engages in self-cuddling behavior.

The attachment disorder manifests before age 5. It does not go away. Untreated it morphs into an an antisocial personality. You should look into the books on the subject of parental abduction and the effects on children by authorities such as Stringer (1999), Boehler (sp?), Faulkner or Rand. I have used some of these people as expert witnesses in the past in numerous parental kidnapping cases, some of which had horrific endings.

I am not fabricating this. There is significant literature on this topic and it has been added to the DSM IV. MW admitted in a an interview that she is a victim of parental kidnapping. That status has consequences. I am outlining what those consequences are frequently found to be.

She also claims her father beat her and she has had a lesbian affair too. She apparently is/was dating a girl on her page. There are things in her blogs on MSp. I do not think that the type of music she listens to has anything to do with it though, I could be wrong, wouldnt be the first time. One thing I will say though, is that a lot of people are assuming that they are or were doing/dealing drugs and I dont know how that assumption came about. (Yes her nickname is also skittles I get it, but wouldnt it be something if it were just the CANDY). There are some things that are fact on her page, there are other things that arent on her page and she seems to spill the beans on that MSp page of hers so I would take what SHE herself has said which to me is enough. I guess that is just my opinion. I do believe she had something to do with this whole thing though. I think she was mommy's little helper personally. I have no problem eating crow if I am wrong either.

Kamille

11-03-2011, 09:03 AM

Well Jersey certainly fits into all the witness accounts up to the 4am siting it seems.

Mary H claims that the sprinklers at her neighbour's were turned off around 11-11:30pm that night while Jersey was watching the house for people on vacation. Wonder if it was a sprinkler system and if it had an auto shut off? MH also claims she saw Jersey around the house that day and he had a shaved head and was wearing a white t-shirt.

MW states that she and Jersey had broken up two weeks prior to Lisa going missing but she happens to live in the area of the dumpster, behind that home with the sprinklers. And she didn't post her break up lament on her FB until Oct 23rd, long after the FBI had contacted her and Jersey had been picked up on a warrant.

So if we figure that Jersey was hanging around MW's place at that time because they were still together, then he only had to cut across that field to get to the home to turn off the sprinklers. Or was he actually in the home? I don't think his record shows any breaking and entering of homes, just cars. Or does it? I wonder what the vantage point is from that house on the hill to N Lister. The Irwin house is pretty open in the front. Could he see the front of the house from there and see or hear the women on the stoop? Can he see that everyone has gone in around 11:30, the same time as he turned off sprinklers so he decides to take a little walk down there. He tries to see as much as he can through the open window, pushing his head against the screen and when he doesn't hear or see any movement he tries the front door and finds he's able to walk right in and take anything he wants.

SB, the neighbour, has apparently shortened the time frame down to 11:30-12:15am by her admission that she was outside an hour after DB "passed out". Did I read she was talking with a neighbour? What neighbour? And the neighbours with the siting at 12:15am place a bald man in a white t-shirt walking up the street with a baby in a diaper, turning into the property beside Mary H and then there was a dumpster fire behind that home about 2 hours later.

The original time of the call from the stolen phones was reported as 2:30am. That time actually fits into the Jersey did it scenario. He had the phones, was still in the area, possibly even in the vacationing sprinkler people's home or garage if they have one, and made the call to his girlfriend.

Seems like a slam dunk really. So why isn't it?

MOO

katshep

11-03-2011, 09:06 AM

I don't doubt the research or most of your points. I do not believe that being overweight itself indicates an eating disorder, though.

I am not saying it is proof of an eating disorder, but it might be indicative of an eating disorder.

frankie069

11-03-2011, 09:06 AM

Taken from the article: The neighbor, a woman named Samantha, has spent a lot of time with the couple since Lisa disappeared. She was at the home on North Walrond Avenue while Bradley and Irwin met with Picerno on Wednesday.

Thursday will mark one month since Lisa Irwin was last seen.

Read more: http://livewire.kmbc.com/Event/Live_Blog_Amber_Alert_Issued_For_Missing_10-Month-Old#ixzz1ceBCKAXh

Isnt this the neighbor that hasnt talked with the police. I am very confused with everyone lately. I thought for some reason she didnt speak with them. Though yesterday on FOX they had a detective on (not related to this case) who said the ONLY way the mother would get off is if someone comes forward and says that she was passed out drunk. Did anyone else see that. I was so in and out yesterday but it was in the afternoon when Shepard Smith was on. I am wondering of they possibly heard that and are setting the stage for Samantha to come out and say just that. Sometimes I think the news needs to be quiet.

Mountain_Kat

11-03-2011, 09:12 AM

Unless Jersey was the neighbor with whom SB continued to drink outside until 11:30 that evening, I don't see how in the world he just wandered by the house shortly after 11:30, thought to himself, "man, I need a baby and 3 cell phones", crept through the window, did everything he supposedly did in the Irwin home, and made his way with a baby to N Chelsea in the space of 1/2 hour.

That just does more than stretch the imagination, imo.

katshep

11-03-2011, 09:13 AM

She also claims her father beat her and she has had a lesbian affair too. She apparently is/was dating a girl on her page. There are things in her blogs on MSp. I do not think that the type of music she listens to has anything to do with it though, I could be wrong, wouldnt be the first time. One thing I will say though, is that a lot of people are assuming that they are or were doing/dealing drugs and I dont know how that assumption came about. (Yes her nickname is also skittles I get it, but wouldnt it be something if it were just the CANDY). There are some things that are fact on her page, there are other things that arent on her page and she seems to spill the beans on that MSp page of hers so I would take what SHE herself has said which to me is enough. I guess that is just my opinion. I do believe she had something to do with this whole thing though. I think she was mommy's little helper personally. I have no problem eating crow if I am wrong either.

Skittles are heavily identified with Juggalos. At the concerts, the gatherings there are lots of skittles and faygo. It is not just about listening to the music. It is about identifying yourself with a horror band.

Geralyn

11-03-2011, 09:17 AM

Skittles are heavily identified with Juggalos. At the concerts, the gatherings there are lots of skittles and faygo. It is not just about listening to the music. It is about identifying yourself with a horror band.

I don't know much about this horror band or its devotees. Do the followers identify at all with the occult? Or is it common for a large number of them to be members of occult groups, if you know? tia

frankie069

11-03-2011, 09:23 AM

Skittles are heavily identified with Juggalos. At the concerts, the gatherings there are lots of skittles and faygo. It is not just about listening to the music. It is about identifying yourself with a horror band.

I dont want to spend too much time on this because I dont want it being called OT but I guess I remember when I was young and even my kids. I mean I was into Kiss, then it was Motley Crue ( I still am a cruehead). I love OZZY and Black Sabbath and boy was I called a devil worshiper. Big time. Which wasnt true. I am 46 and my friends still call me the biggest cruehead they know. So I am just wondering, like I consider myself a cruehead here, is it possible she is using Juggalo in the same context. My boys are heavily into death metal bands but they are great kids. I guess I am just someone that because music is important to me, I dont want that to cloud the mind. She has enough against her (which is fine with me). GWIM.

frankie069

11-03-2011, 09:29 AM

I don't know much about this horror band or its devotees. Do the followers identify at all with the occult? Or is it common for a large number of them to be members of occult groups, if you know? tia

She has a lot of things self written and posted on her page that dont show a very nice or stable person but nothing to indicate an occult fascination at all.

mlc9852

11-03-2011, 09:31 AM

this is interesting read

"Eyewitness misidentification is the single greatest cause of wrongful convictions nationwide, playing a role in more than 75% of convictions overturned through DNA testing."

Eyewitness identification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyewitness_identification)

http://www.visualexpert.com/Resources/mistakenid.html

I worked for criminal defense attorneys for many years. I can tell you they love "eyewitnesses".

vlpate

11-03-2011, 09:39 AM

There is quite a bit of empirical research on victims of parental kidnapping. MW admits she was the victim of such a crime.
Actually, she never said she was kidnapped. She said her mother took her to Mexico and abandoned her there - that her mother was never around. The abandonment seem to be her issue.

I am saying from the interviews I have seen with her, she manifests some traits of an untreated abducted child who most likely experienced reactive attachment disorder.
and then....(BEM)
I am not saying she has this, but this is a profile common to untreated abductees and she has some of those characteristics.

Fascination with gore: The Insane Clown Posse is all about gore. Have you seen the tee shirts with the kid running with the axe splattered with blood? Have you see Chuckie, Nightmare on Elm Street, Scream, Saws?? America's teens love gore and they always have - were they all abandoned? Have you heard their lyrics? Are you familiar with the kinds of violent crimes that have been committed by Juggalos that have led the FBI to classify them as a violent gang? Yes, I've seen the reports but I doubt 8 people in a flop house who can afford only one phone could be considered a gang. The FBI never states that ALL fans of ICP are gangs. It is called psychopathic or horror rock for a reason. She self-identifies as a Juggalette and is seen on fb in gang attire.I've not seen her gang attire on FB, what "gang" attire? Her pictures are private, so you must be a friend to see them.
My comments above in red

Lying about obvious things: We see in her interviews that she is lying on camera about obvious things such as her presence in the Irwin neighborhood.
She said she had been through the neighborhood with her ex-boyfriend, was there more?
Eating Disorder. She is clearly overweight, indicative of an eating disorder.
Being overweight is not a sign of an eating disorder at all. This is a judgment since it can't possibly be based on knowledge of eating disorders.

Pyromania. She expresses an interest in pyromania on her fb page and dated someone she considered a pyromaniac.
The site you keep referring to that she clicked "like" on is also interpreted as "burning blunts". I don't know how she interprets it.

Lack of eye contact. In interviews she does not maintain eye contact and engages in self-cuddling behavior.

Self-cuddling? She was nervous....I've seen these amateur statement analysis videos showing MW's video and that's a term they use. I find the video fascinating, but I don't know if watching someone for a total of 3 minutes, taken out of context, would lead a real professional to opine so definitively.

The attachment disorder manifests before age 5. It does not go away.
Really? It does go away with treatment and/or a family who is treated.

Untreated it morphs into an an antisocial personality. You should look into the books on the subject of parental abduction and the effects on children by authorities such as Stringer (1999), Boehler (sp?), Faulkner or Rand. I have used some of these people as expert witnesses in the past in numerous parental kidnapping cases, some of which had horrific endings.
I'll check them out next time I am interested in a parental kidnapping case - as far as I know, this is not one. As for MW, she never said she was kidnapped, so I'm scratching my head as to why she is being analyzed where kidnapping is concerned at all.

I am not fabricating this. There is significant literature on this topic and it has been added to the DSM IV. MW admitted in a an interview that she is a victim of parental kidnapping. That status has consequences. I am outlining what those consequences are frequently found to be.
Again, never said kidnapped....emphasis was on abandonment.

Do I think MW is lying - yeah, I do, about the phone call. Do I think she's messed up? Probably - the majority of the world is, due to one dysfunction or the other growing up. Do I think she should be portrayed as a fat axe weilding, lying pyromaniac because her mother abandoned her? No, I don't. I tend to have more compassion for someone who is obviously in pain from a childhood trauma.

katshep

11-03-2011, 09:40 AM

She has a lot of things self written and posted on her page that dont show a very nice or stable person but nothing to indicate an occult fascination at all.

Some of the band's followers are devoted to the Dark Carnival--a quasi-religious belief with satanic overtones created by ICP. I don't how deep MW is into this. And, I don't want to go o/t, but I am answering your question.

Geralyn

11-03-2011, 09:45 AM

She has a lot of things self written and posted on her page that dont show a very nice or stable person but nothing to indicate an occult fascination at all.

Thanks. I wasn't asking about her per se, but about the so called horror groups followers in general.

But I'm doing a little reading now on the subject.

Mountain_Kat

11-03-2011, 09:49 AM

Poor MW. She is going to be picked apart, and all she's probably guilty of is letting some critters use her phone.

nursebeeme

11-03-2011, 09:50 AM

discussion of the juggalette culture/MW facebook is allowed.. just wanted you all to know... please refer to current Lisa Forum rules in the etiquette stickie..

Kamille

11-03-2011, 09:57 AM

Some of the reasons why LE can't make this an obvious case against Jersey and possibly MW.

-cadaver dog hit in bedroom
-phone call to MW phone was possibly at 8:30pm, not 2:30am
-changing stories and timelines by the parents
-no fingerprints or other DNA evidence of an intruder
-witness sitings don't seem to be the same person or even stay consistent

Can anyone think of any others?

MOO

wvjules

11-03-2011, 10:06 AM

Speaking of ICP and Juggalos did anyone see this this morning?

The FBI has classified fans of the Detroit-based hip-hop band Insane Clown Posse--who call themselves Juggalos and paint their faces like their heroes--as a violent, fast-growing "gang" worth monitoring. News of the bureau's move first came courtesy of Wired reporter Spencer Ackerman.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/fbi-classifies-juggalos-gang-201339557.html

And from the linked FBI report in the article:

Most crimes committed by Juggalos are sporadic, disorganized, individualistic, and often involve simple assault, personal drug use and possession, petty theft, and vandalism. However, open source reporting suggests that a small number of Juggalos are forming more organized subsets and engaging in more gang-like criminal activity, such as felony assaults, thefts, robberies, and drug sales.

katshep

11-03-2011, 10:14 AM

Actually, she never said she was kidnapped. She said her mother took her to Mexico and abandoned her there - that her mother was never around. The abandonment seem to be her issue.

and then....(BEM)

My comments above in red

She said she had been through the neighborhood with her ex-boyfriend, was there more?

Being overweight is not a sign of an eating disorder at all. This is a judgment since it can't possibly be based on knowledge of eating disorders.

The site you keep referring to that she clicked "like" on is also interpreted as "burning blunts". I don't know how she interprets it.

Self-cuddling? She was nervous....I've seen these amateur statement analysis videos showing MW's video and that's a term they use. I find the video fascinating, but I don't know if watching someone for a total of 3 minutes, taken out of context, would lead a real professional to opine so definitively.

Really? It does go away with treatment and/or a family who is treated.

I'll check them out next time I am interested in a parental kidnapping case - as far as I know, this is not one. As for MW, she never said she was kidnapped, so I'm scratching my head as to why she is being analyzed where kidnapping is concerned at all.

Again, never said kidnapped....emphasis was on abandonment.

Do I think MW is lying - yeah, I do, about the phone call. Do I think she's messed up? Probably - the majority of the world is, due to one dysfunction or the other growing up. Do I think she should be portrayed as a fat axe weilding, lying pyromaniac because her mother abandoned her? No, I don't. I tend to have more compassion for someone who is obviously in pain from a childhood trauma.

From her interview, "
“My mom took me and my brothers and ran away to Mexico, and my mom just left us there from what I remember. I was really young."

Read more: http://www.kmbc.com/news/29660981/detail.html#ixzz1ceOzKSZE
As I said, if untreated, it can morph into antisocial personality disorder. Jails are filled with people who were abused or abandoned as children and became anti-social. Gangs are likewise filled with such young adults. Juggalos is classified as a gang in many states and by the FBI.

Parental kidnapping involves abandonment and the reactive relationship disorder stems from kidnapping, abandonment and abuse--physical, sexual and emotional.

If being excessively thin can be indicative of an eating disorder, so can being overweight.

She lied about the obvious, because numerous people on Lister knew her to be frequently in the neighborhood not just passing through.

She has an interest in pyromania. She describes her ex as a pyro. Burning blunts is smoking a certain kind of joint and is very hip among Juggalos.

Self-cuddling is a type of reassuring behavior. It is commonly seen in psychological interviews with abused children. The children comfort themselves as they have not been comforted by a parent.

You are free to have your own opinon based on your own personal thoughts and experiences. I am free to form my opinion based on scientific research and extensive trial work with abused, abandoned and kidnapped children.

Mountain_Kat

11-03-2011, 10:19 AM

Who is "excessively overweight" ? MW doesn't appear obese to me. Nor does DB. Nor anyone else I've seen connected with this case.

Also...some of the very same people who have chastised others here for mentioning that DB cut her hair, don't seem to have any problem what-so-ever discussing MW's hair, nor her weight, nor her psychological "make-up", nor anything else pertaining to her personal life. Why is that?

Tuffy

11-03-2011, 10:37 AM

This 10/15 video with Capt Young stated that Jersey is not a suspect but who knows things may have changed since then.

http://www.kmbc.com/r-video/29498238/detail.html
(beginning at the 1:03 mark)

I really thought it was more recent than that. I thought that when it was said that the man with the baby was identified as someone known to the case, it was also said that Jersey was not thought to be involved. I'm at work right now, so I'll have to look for it later.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

tink92

11-03-2011, 10:39 AM

Who is "excessively overweight" ? MW doesn't appear obese to me. Nor does DB. Nor anyone else I've seen connected with this case.

Also...some of the very same people who have chastised others here for mentioning that DB cut her hair, don't seem to have any problem what-so-ever discussing MW's hair, nor her weight, nor her psychological "make-up", nor anything else pertaining to her personal life. Why is that?

Maybe because we have empathy for DB...The poor woman has LOST HER CHILD...I think we all forget that sometimes. Then she gets dragged through the mud and called everything from cold blooded murderer to alcoholic. The woman has my sympathies..

NancyA

11-03-2011, 10:43 AM

Who is "excessively overweight" ? MW doesn't appear obese to me. Nor does DB. Nor anyone else I've seen connected with this case.

Also...some of the very same people who have lectured and chastised others here for mentioning that DB cut her hair, don't seem to have any problem what-so-ever discussing MW's hair, nor her weight, nor her psychological "make-up", nor anything else pertaining to her personal life. Why is that?

To be honest I don't give a monkey's about her hair,weight, music tastes, religious affiliations, favourite flavour of ice cream any more than I gave one about Casey Anthony's or Elisa Baker's, what I am interested in is this woman's apparent need for attention and the additional superfluous details with which she seemingly feels obliged to embellish the outlines of her involvement/non-involvement...oh yeah and all the while claiming NO involvement whatsoever beyond being unfortunate enough to have a connection to a phone that was called by another phone connected to the case oh and the unfortunate coincidence of her ex-bf living in the same street as the missing child.

frankie069

11-03-2011, 10:49 AM

From her interview, "
“My mom took me and my brothers and ran away to Mexico, and my mom just left us there from what I remember. I was really young."

Read more: http://www.kmbc.com/news/29660981/detail.html#ixzz1ceOzKSZE
As I said, if untreated, it can morph into antisocial personality disorder. Jails are filled with people who were abused or abandoned as children and became anti-social. Gangs are likewise filled with such young adults. Juggalos is classified as a gang in many states and by the FBI.

Juggalo's must have changed quite a bit since I was young. I know I had fights with them when I was younger and they were stupid wannabee's. But then again like I said before as a HUGE OZZY fan and Crue fan I was labeled a devil worshiper.

Parental kidnapping involves abandonment and the reactive relationship disorder stems from kidnapping, abandonment and abuse--physical, sexual and emotional.

I guess we are talking about DB here being she is the parent? Parents who kill their children are usually abused as children themselves or they suffer from some other type of sociopathic behavior which makes them jealous of their child. They want to get rid of this child because of a boyfriend, a lifestyle that doesnt allow them to fulfill when they have kids etc. Sexual abuse in not an issue in killing your own child, it is an issue in sexual abusing your own child. If you are talking about MW, well, most women that kidnap a baby do so because they want one themselves. That is the main reason why.

If being excessively thin can be indicative of an eating disorder, so can being overweight.

My sister suffers from an eating disorder, she goes from being very thin to very heavy, my sister is bulimic. Eating disorders can go both ways.

She has an interest in pyromania. She describes her ex as a pyro. Burning blunts is smoking a certain kind of joint and is very hip among Juggalos.

She does have a self admitted interest in pyromania. Smoking blunts has been around forever and it NOT indicative of a juggalo. I am an active member of NORML and this I can tell you. A blunt is a joint, some kids call big fatties a blunt. Its a joint no matter how you look at it.

Self-cuddling is a type of reassuring behavior. It is commonly seen in psychological interviews with abused children. The children comfort themselves as they have not been comforted by a parent.

If she is not lying with what she says, then apparently her mother left her in Mexico ( I believe) and her father was abusive. Yes it can be seen as a self comforting reaction, but it can also be seen as a sign of self pity or guilt as well.

Above items BBM ( I remembered !!!) Fact is, I dont think an excuse can be made for her. She made her own life, she has other family members that she could have turned to. She is not a child. I do believe that MW and DB somehow hooked up, once again, MW is a self described lesbian ( which there is nothing wrong with at all, I have many gay family members) but maybe they hooked up somehow. Never know what happened, but it is apparent she is part if this "game" and its sickening.

frankie069

11-03-2011, 10:53 AM

Maybe because we have empathy for DB...The poor woman has LOST HER CHILD...I think we all forget that sometimes. Then she gets dragged through the mud and called everything from cold blooded murderer to alcoholic. The woman has my sympathies..

Oh DB has NO sympathy from me at all. I do not believe she was drunk that night nor do I believe Lisa was kidnapped either. I believe that just as much as I believed Caylee was with Zanny the Nanny..

jjenny

11-03-2011, 10:53 AM

Who is "excessively overweight" ? MW doesn't appear obese to me. Nor does DB. Nor anyone else I've seen connected with this case.

Also...some of the very same people who have chastised others here for mentioning that DB cut her hair, don't seem to have any problem what-so-ever discussing MW's hair, nor her weight, nor her psychological "make-up", nor anything else pertaining to her personal life. Why is that?

I don't know DB's exact height and weight but by simply looking at her, I am guessing if I were to use her height and weight to calculate BMI it will come back either overweight or obese.

Mountain_Kat

11-03-2011, 10:59 AM

I don't know DB's exact height and weight but by simply looking at her, I am guessing if I were to use her height and weight to calculate BMI it will come back either overweight or obese.

:nono: You're only allowed to discuss MW's weight.

tink92

11-03-2011, 11:07 AM

Oh DB has NO sympathy from me at all. I do not believe she was drunk that night nor do I believe Lisa was kidnapped either. I believe that just as much as I believed Caylee was with Zanny the Nanny..

Well I think I gathered a while back that DB does not have your sympathies. That is entirely up to you of course. She has mine..my heart goes out to her and will continue to do so unless it is proven she is involved..(which I very much doubt)

nursebeeme

11-03-2011, 11:09 AM

No sleuthing of DB... except what is in the msm.. thanks peeps

frankie069

11-03-2011, 11:10 AM

Ok I am not sticking up for the group but here are 3 articles of ICP and they are short for you to read. You have to remember that bands do things for a gimmick and this band is a gimmick. There are far worse out there. If they have a small percentage of their fans doing some violent stuff, you cannot blame the band and cant put all the fans into one category either.

http://newyork.timeout.com/things-to-do/own-this-city-blog/2133755/interview-violent-j-of-insane-clown-posse

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/rocks/2011/10/icps_violent_j_talks_texas_fay.php

And their web site: http://www.insaneclownposse.com/icp2010/?page_id=3&paged=2

AND I say this thinking MW had something to so with Lisa missing but I dont think it has to do with her music.

jjenny

11-03-2011, 11:13 AM

Well I think I gathered a while back that DB does not have your sympathies. That is entirely up to you of course. She has mine..my heart goes out to her and will continue to do so unless it is proven she is involved..(which I very much doubt)

What she has personally admitted to is enough for me to have no sympathy for her. Getting drunk when she was supposed to have been taken care of 3 kids? She can't legally drive, she claimed her phones were not working, she got drunk-what was she going to do in case of an emergency? Putting the sick child into her crib at 6:40 pm and not even remembering if she checked on her before going to bed herself? And then she gets on TV and instead of saying she made a mistake she defends her right to have her "adult time?"

tink92

11-03-2011, 11:16 AM

What she has personally admitted to is enough for me to have no sympathy for her. Getting drunk when she was supposed to have been taken care of 3 kids? She can't legally drive, she claimed her phones were not working, she got drunk-what was she going to do in case of an emergency? Putting the sick child into her crib at 6:40 pm and not even remembering if she checked on her before going to bed herself? And then she gets on TV and instead of saying she made a mistake she defends her right to have her "adult time?"

I see your point. but boy oh boy..the price she paid for that mistake ....I would be in a mental institution after having a full breadown by now..a gibbering wreck..I just can't imagine. I just feel for the woman.

jjenny

11-03-2011, 11:23 AM

I see your point. but boy oh boy..the price she paid for that mistake ....I would be in a mental institution after having a full breadown by now..a gibbering wreck..I just can't imagine. I just feel for the woman.

I don't believe this woman ever said she made a mistake. What she claims is her adult time had "nothing to do with her" meaning baby Lisa.

Mountain_Kat

11-03-2011, 11:38 AM

I see your point. but boy oh boy..the price she paid for that mistake ....I would be in a mental institution after having a full breadown by now..a gibbering wreck..I just can't imagine. I just feel for the woman.

I understand where you are coming from, Tink, I do. But if it turns out that DB got plastered and something happened to Lisa as a result of that, I can muster zero sympathy for the woman. Getting plastered to the point where you admit you may have blacked out, when caring for a 10 month old child, is not a "mistake", imo...it's a piss poor decision. We don't feel sorry for the drunk driver who decides to leave the bar one night and hits and kills a kid, do we?

ETA: And now, I will get back on topic.

Sparklin

11-03-2011, 12:40 PM

Interesting! He goes on and on and on about how the guy is not involved, with his eyes a mile wide and then that huge Adam's apple gulp at 2:06. He seems so overly insistent that it becomes unconvincing. Strange. He could honestly be telling the truth but I wonder why it's so very important to him to convince listeners that JT isn't involved.

I feel (moo) that he IS involved in some way and that there is an accomplice, so LE is saying he was cleared to put the accomplice at ease until...I don't know what ! grrr...This is making me crazy!!!

Meri

11-03-2011, 01:27 PM

Motorcycle guy claimed the man with the baby had a well build body, and was "all dressed in white." The neighbor lady claimed the man was tall "at least 5'8" or taller, and had dark pants on. Those descriptions are no where near close.

Could there be more than one guy? Perhaps there really was a phone call from the phone at 2:30 - the baby got transferred and a call was made first to set that up.

Meri

11-03-2011, 01:34 PM

Does MW's interview seem strange to anyone else? the way she was so tearful and gave us her "back story on abandonment" just raised a red flag to me.
It was almost as if we were seeing her remorse or regret and her defense. She seems in way above her head...maybe she didn't realise this would get so big?

I could be way off base..but I *think* if i was in her place I would be more stoic and maybe a bit annoyed angry that something i had nothing to do with i was being dragged into (if I was innocent) I really don't think I would be giving a poor me sob story about my childhood on national tv. (unless i was building a defense)

Honestly, my very first thought after hearing her story about being left in Mexico was - Baby Lisa is in Mexico. Almost like she was giving us information in some way. Just something that popped into my head immediately.

In da Middle

11-03-2011, 01:42 PM

What ever happened to the baby, I think Jersey or MW or any of the 7 other people she lives with or somebody in this circle knows something about what happened.

Whisperer

11-03-2011, 01:54 PM

If jersey was in that house and stole Lisa, there would be evidence left behind. He should be ruled in or out by now. No one goes walking through a house, stealing a baby, turning on the lights in every room (but not the baby's room) and leaves the house w/o leaving prints, fibers or hair.

cluciano63

11-03-2011, 01:56 PM

What ever happened to the baby, I think Jersey or MW or any of the 7 other people she lives with or somebody in this circle knows something about what happened.

Possibly, but I also feel that someone who lived with Lisa knows.

jus sayin

11-03-2011, 02:18 PM

Going by solid evidence as reported on msm, Jersey is so obviously the prime suspect. (jmo) Someone asked, "but what motive?" He could have gained access to the house while DB and SB were drinking. When people are on front porch talking loudly, drinkin, etc., a known burgler like Jersey would have known it was safe to enter the house, and he is so experienced at gaining access to houses, that I bet he could have. (a neighbor reported Jersey used to enter a house where the owner lived away, so often, they got used to chasing him off.) He could have hidden inside until DB and children went to sleep. His motive would have been to steal stuff, phones and other stuff theives steal and then sell. When they were finally asleep, he gets the cell phones, pockets them, but he hears Lisa stirring. (Lisa been asleep a long time, and Jersey could easily have wakened her). He goes in and puts his hand over her mouth before she cries out, but she gets more upset. He picks her up with hand over her mouth and goes outside to think what to do, so he won't get caught by DB or kids. Goes across to sprinkler neighbor's house, and on to town houses where the dumpser is. After that, I can't imagine. Don't want to imagine.

IWillDare

11-03-2011, 02:32 PM

I don't believe this woman ever said she made a mistake. What she claims is her adult time had "nothing to do with her" meaning baby Lisa.

ITA JJenny. Getting plastered when you're responsible for your three children...with no vehicle and no phones is not a "mistake". It's a choice that she made. And IMO, it was a very bad choice.

Whether DB personally did anything to harm Lisa, she is still responsible for what happened by her failure to protect her.

wvjules

11-03-2011, 02:45 PM

If jersey was in that house and stole Lisa, there would be evidence left behind. He should be ruled in or out by now. No one goes walking through a house, stealing a baby, turning on the lights in every room (but not the baby's room) and leaves the house w/o leaving prints, fibers or hair.

If DB killed that baby in a drunken stupor, or otherwise, wouldn't there also be some evidence left behind? How can she be accused of being drunk and also be sober enough to be able to hide her baby's body so well that even after a month there is no sign of her?

StrayKat

11-03-2011, 02:47 PM

Going by solid evidence as reported on msm, Jersey is so obviously the prime suspect. (jmo) Someone asked, "but what motive?" He could have gained access to the house while DB and SB were drinking. When people are on front porch talking loudly, drinkin, etc., a known burgler like Jersey would have known it was safe to enter the house, and he is so experienced at gaining access to houses, that I bet he could have. (a neighbor reported Jersey used to enter a house where the owner lived away, so often, they got used to chasing him off.) He could have hidden inside until DB and children went to sleep. His motive would have been to steal stuff, phones and other stuff theives steal and then sell. When they were finally asleep, he gets the cell phones, pockets them, but he hears Lisa stirring. (Lisa been asleep a long time, and Jersey could easily have wakened her). He goes in and puts his hand over her mouth before she cries out, but she gets more upset. He picks her up with hand over her mouth and goes outside to think what to do, so he won't get caught by DB or kids. Goes across to sprinkler neighbor's house, and on to town houses where the dumpser is. After that, I can't imagine. Don't want to imagine.

He probably thought they weren't home and was going to rob them by climbing in the window. I hate to imagine what he may have done in those 2 hours... between the sighting at 12:15 and the video of someone walking (if that is him).

He is NOT CLEARED in this report from kidnapping baby Lisa.

Snipped:
Capt. Steve Young with the Kansas City Police Dept says Tanko cooperated with police and they have moved on with the investigation.

http://fox4kc.com/2011/11/01/womans-cell-phone-confiscated-for-baby-lisa-investigation/

saba

11-03-2011, 02:50 PM

If jersey was in that house and stole Lisa, there would be evidence left behind. He should be ruled in or out by now. No one goes walking through a house, stealing a baby, turning on the lights in every room (but not the baby's room) and leaves the house w/o leaving prints, fibers or hair.

bbm

...Kansas City Police Department spokesman Steve Young said he could not discuss investigators interviews with Wright. However, Young did say the man known as "Jersey" has been interviewed and cleared of any involvement in the baby's disappearance.

"We spoke to him and are moving on," Young said...

http://www.kctv5.com/story/15919668/womans-cell-phone-connected-to-search-for-missing-baby

I'm going to guess that LE knows exactly where Jersey was on the night in question and it was not DB's house. Just my opinion.

lil momma

11-03-2011, 02:57 PM

I am wondering, what if DB and her drinking buddy were actually on the drinking buddies stoop and not DB. IMO, that would make a heck of a lot more sense. JMO

StrayKat

11-03-2011, 02:57 PM

bbm

...Kansas City Police Department spokesman Steve Young said he could not discuss investigators interviews with Wright. However, Young did say the man known as "Jersey" has been interviewed and cleared of any involvement in the baby's disappearance.

"We spoke to him and are moving on," Young said...

http://www.kctv5.com/story/15919668/womans-cell-phone-connected-to-search-for-missing-baby

I'm going to guess that LE knows exactly where Jersey was on the night in question and it was not DB's house. Just my opinion.

The only direct quotes in that story.

"We spoke to him and are moving on," Young said...

Also, he is not the FBI. As told to me recently, the FBI handles kidnappings. They have not come out and said anything.

natsound

11-03-2011, 03:11 PM

I understand where you are coming from, Tink, I do. But if it turns out that DB got plastered and something happened to Lisa as a result of that, I can muster zero sympathy for the woman. Getting plastered to the point where you admit you may have blacked out, when caring for a 10 month old child, is not a "mistake", imo...it's a piss poor decision. We don't feel sorry for the drunk driver who decides to leave the bar one night and hits and kills a kid, do we?

ETA: And now, I will get back on topic.

BBM

It has already turned out that way. DB got plastered by her own admission, and the child is gone.

stillwatersc

11-03-2011, 03:17 PM

I had never heard of Juggalo's until today & now two threads!

OK - Oklahoma City, 10 Oct 2011 -The mystery of who killed Carina Sauders remains - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

The victim had been beheaded, sources told The Oklahoman.
Her cause of death has not been determined.Remains of Carina Saunders, 19, were found inside a duffel bag..

And a POI:

Perez had not gone to work or school for a week and had a paycheck waiting for him at the Olive Garden on Memorial Road, Laraway stated in the report filed Monday. On his Facebook page, Perez calls himself a Juggalo, which is how fans of the musical group Insane Clown Posse refer to themselves. The band's lyrics are controversial as they touch on themes such as cannibalism, murder and necrophilia. Many of Perez's Facebook friends are fans of the band, and photos on Saunders' Facebook page show her wearing an Insane Clown Posse T-shirt.

Read more: http://newsok.com/one-person-of-interest-cleared-another-sought-by-bethany-police-in-death-of-19-year-old-woman/article/3614933#ixzz1cfgQNiJ7

natsound

11-03-2011, 03:18 PM

You know, I tell you what, I would really like to hear from SY's mouth himself that Jersey is cleared. In the reports I've seen, he indeed states that police are moving on, but it's the reporter who says "he's been cleared". I'm not doubting he said it; this is strictly infornmation-seeking, and would probably help clear up the confusion.

21merc7

11-03-2011, 03:20 PM

You know, I tell you what, I would really like to hear from SY's mouth himself that Jersey is cleared. In the reports I've seen, he indeed states that police are moving on, but it's the reporter who says "he's been cleared". I'm not doubting he said it; this is strictly infornmation-seeking, and would probably help clear up the confusion.

Agreed, I think "moving on" is just a polite way of saying stop asking, we are not answering.

MaryAnn

11-03-2011, 03:23 PM

I see your point. but boy oh boy..the price she paid for that mistake ....I would be in a mental institution after having a full breadown by now..a gibbering wreck..I just can't imagine. I just feel for the woman.

I agree. I think DB's only mistake was to get wasted that night. She will never forgive herself. I thought I was the only one on this board that didn't ASSUME she was guilty. I need hard evidence before I bash a Mother who has lost her baby girl. I can totally understand this mentality with Casey Anthoney, but DB isn't even close to behaving like that. She sobs and sobs and does beg for her baby to come home...

Mountain_Kat

11-03-2011, 03:27 PM

Honestly, if SY came right out and said, "We know Jersey didn't do it because he was in the hospital all night!", I think some people here would still argue that SY couldn't possbily know that because he wasn't stationed at the hospital room door all night, or that what SY says doesn't really matter because he's not FBI, or that it's possible that Jersey hired someone to impersonate him in the hospital (or or or).

Kinda frustrating, imo.

natsound

11-03-2011, 03:28 PM

Agreed, I think "moving on" is just a polite way of saying stop asking, we are not answering.

Yes, because it's a little strange to me that he would still be in jail for an outstanding warrant. They picked him on the outstanding warrant to talk to him about Lisa's disappearance, IMO, and from what I understand he's still behind bars.

As I sort out my thoughts, I think it's very possible that call came in to MW's phone for Jersey... for help a little later in the night. I'm contradicting my prior opinions that DB worked alone, but the call to MW's phone and her connection to Jersey is cause for a raised eyebrow.

natsound

11-03-2011, 03:30 PM

Let's not get angry at each other. Some of us like precise language, because there is plenty of reason for the family or for law enforcement to put a spin on their statements in this hot-button case. It's not critical of LE in any way.

Sparklin

11-03-2011, 03:32 PM

The only direct quotes in that story.

"We spoke to him and are moving on," Young said...

Also, he is not the FBI. As told to me recently, the FBI handles kidnappings. They have not come out and said anything.

and where the heck was Jersey from Oct.3 when the neighbour saw him and the 15th when the police finally tracked him down...and what was he doing? hmmmm Somewhere I saw reported he was last seen at a bar (Jack something?).

Dr. Know?

11-03-2011, 03:35 PM

It could be Jersey has provided information about that night and fessed up about any part he may have had in it, and they are working his story to verify it.

Just guessing since the MOVANS update I rec'd this week just said Jersey had court on 11/15/11, but not that he was returned anywhere. MOVANS does it differently than when I watched them move prisoners in the Haleigh Cummings case though. Shawn Morgan, in jail and charged with Breeann's murder, those updates do say they are moving him for court dates but usually a day or two before court dates. Those are MOVANS notifications too. Got me?

MaryAnn

11-03-2011, 03:37 PM

Going by solid evidence as reported on msm, Jersey is so obviously the prime suspect. (jmo) Someone asked, "but what motive?" He could have gained access to the house while DB and SB were drinking. When people are on front porch talking loudly, drinkin, etc., a known burgler like Jersey would have known it was safe to enter the house, and he is so experienced at gaining access to houses, that I bet he could have. (a neighbor reported Jersey used to enter a house where the owner lived away, so often, they got used to chasing him off.) He could have hidden inside until DB and children went to sleep. His motive would have been to steal stuff, phones and other stuff theives steal and then sell. When they were finally asleep, he gets the cell phones, pockets them, but he hears Lisa stirring. (Lisa been asleep a long time, and Jersey could easily have wakened her). He goes in and puts his hand over her mouth before she cries out, but she gets more upset. He picks her up with hand over her mouth and goes outside to think what to do, so he won't get caught by DB or kids. Goes across to sprinkler neighbor's house, and on to town houses where the dumpser is. After that, I can't imagine. Don't want to imagine.

THANK YOU!! A theory that actually makes sense! I think it's Jersey too. Have you seen him? Creepy

saba

11-03-2011, 03:37 PM

Honestly, if SY came right out and said, "We know Jersey didn't do it because he was in the hospital all night!", I think some people here would still argue that SY couldn't possbily know that because he wasn't stationed at the hospital room door all night, or that what SY says doesn't really matter because he's not FBI, or that it's possible that Jersey hired someone to impersonate him in the hospital (or or or).

Kinda frustrating, imo.

It's frustrating to me because Jersey is such a yummy suspect. Criminal record, drifter, etc- I think that LE felt the same and really took a hard look at him. I have to double down on this though. They know where he was and it was somewhere else.

Quizzical

11-03-2011, 03:41 PM

One thought I've had. If you were a person in the neighborhood who wanted to kidnap a baby....but you didn't want to do the dirty work yourself, who would you get to help you? Possibly someone who has broken into houses before and is familiar with the neighborhood?

And to me the quote from SY about moving on in the investigation does not necessarily mean Jersey is cleared of all involvement. Maybe they are moving on to the next piece of the puzzle as far as we know.

natsound

11-03-2011, 03:42 PM

It could be Jersey has provided information about that night and fessed up about any part he may have had in it, and they are working his story to verify it.

respectfully snipped

Aha! Very possible.

JeannaT

11-03-2011, 03:42 PM

It's frustrating to me because Jersey is such a yummy suspect. Criminal record, drifter, etc- I think that LE felt the same and really took a hard look at him. I have to double down on this though. They know where he was and it was somewhere else.

Um hm. But to me, what you've listed is only 30% of the suspicion about him. The other 70%, IMHO, is the only call made from one of the Irwin's cells that night was to HIS GIRLFRIEND, although the Irwins did not know her. That's certainly convicting, IMHO.

In da Middle

11-03-2011, 03:42 PM

and where the heck was Jersey from Oct.3 when the neighbour saw him and the 15th when the police finally tracked him down...and what was he doing? hmmmm Somewhere I saw reported he was last seen at a bar (Jack something?).
He was kicked out of One Eyed Jacks on Oct 1 for being an a**hole. The cops were inquiring as to his whereabouts almost immediately. I don't see any possible alibi of his as being incarcerated or they would have known where he was.

natsound

11-03-2011, 03:44 PM

It's frustrating to me because Jersey is such a yummy suspect. Criminal record, drifter, etc- I think that LE felt the same and really took a hard look at him. I have to double down on this though. They know where he was and it was somewhere else.

BBM

Can you link to that? I've googled all of this and I didn't see that anywhere. TIA

cindysue

11-03-2011, 03:50 PM

It's frustrating to me because Jersey is such a yummy suspect. Criminal record, drifter, etc- I think that LE felt the same and really took a hard look at him. I have to double down on this though. They know where he was and it was somewhere else.

I really doubt they know where he was for sure, one person that might have is his ex-gf. Did she say where he was that night?

saba

11-03-2011, 03:53 PM

Um hm. But to me, what you've listed is only 30% of the suspicion about him. The other 70%, IMHO, is the only call made from one of the Irwin's cells that night was to HIS GIRLFRIEND, although the Irwins did not know her. That's certainly convicting, IMHO.

It's not "convicting" imo, but it sure is suspicious. Sorry I left out the call and his familiarity with the neighborhood. Like I said, he's a yummy suspect.

curvecuti

11-03-2011, 03:56 PM

Going by solid evidence as reported on msm, Jersey is so obviously the prime suspect. (jmo) Someone asked, "but what motive?" He could have gained access to the house while DB and SB were drinking. When people are on front porch talking loudly, drinkin, etc., a known burgler like Jersey would have known it was safe to enter the house, and he is so experienced at gaining access to houses, that I bet he could have. (a neighbor reported Jersey used to enter a house where the owner lived away, so often, they got used to chasing him off.) He could have hidden inside until DB and children went to sleep. His motive would have been to steal stuff, phones and other stuff theives steal and then sell. When they were finally asleep, he gets the cell phones, pockets them, but he hears Lisa stirring. (Lisa been asleep a long time, and Jersey could easily have wakened her). He goes in and puts his hand over her mouth before she cries out, but she gets more upset. He picks her up with hand over her mouth and goes outside to think what to do, so he won't get caught by DB or kids. Goes across to sprinkler neighbor's house, and on to town houses where the dumpser is. After that, I can't imagine. Don't want to imagine.
Why would he take her? It's not like she could identify him. She couldn't cry out "Mommy there is a strange man in my room."

ETA: different wording

beach

11-03-2011, 03:58 PM

Agreed, I think "moving on" is just a polite way of saying stop asking, we are not answering.

Kind of like referring to someone as a POI. It doesn't mean one is or is not a suspect. ;)

However maddening to us, it is actually a rather clever way of getting around the issue. Props to them. lol

Donjeta

11-03-2011, 04:02 PM

He probably thought they weren't home and was going to rob them by climbing in the window. I hate to imagine what he may have done in those 2 hours... between the sighting at 12:15 and the video of someone walking (if that is him).

He is NOT CLEARED in this report from kidnapping baby Lisa.

Snipped:
Capt. Steve Young with the Kansas City Police Dept says Tanko cooperated with police and they have moved on with the investigation.

http://fox4kc.com/2011/11/01/womans-cell-phone-confiscated-for-baby-lisa-investigation/

I'm glad someone cooperates at any rate.

But yeah, moved on could mean, "he's been cleared, we'll have to move on to other suspects", or "he sure had a lot of interesting and potentially incriminating things to say and we're going to get a lot farther in the case following those leads".

Mountain_Kat

11-03-2011, 04:05 PM

I'm glad someone cooperates at any rate.

Bizarro world, right? The "prime suspect" cooperates with LE, and the "innocent parents" don't.

Go figure.

huckleberryhound

11-03-2011, 04:09 PM

One thought I've had. If you were a person in the neighborhood who wanted to kidnap a baby....but you didn't want to do the dirty work yourself, who would you get to help you? Possibly someone who has broken into houses before and is familiar with the neighborhood?

And to me the quote from SY about moving on in the investigation does not necessarily mean Jersey is cleared of all involvement. Maybe they are moving on to the next piece of the puzzle as far as we know.

My thoughts exactly, and I think LE is going to say whatever they think
will be helpful to them. If jersey is being uncooperative, they might think
that if he feels less defensive, he might be more likely to talk about it to
his girlfriend or other associates. If I was LE , I'd make sure he has a
cellmate in jail that would be willing to make himself a deal for any info
he can get from Jersey.

MaryAnn

11-03-2011, 04:10 PM

Bizarro world, right? The "prime suspect" cooperates with LE, and the "innocent parents" don't.

Go figure.

How do we know he's cooperating? he's in jail and has no choice

Donjeta

11-03-2011, 04:11 PM

Bizarro world, right? The "prime suspect" cooperates with LE, and the "innocent parents" don't.

Go figure.

I don't know what his warrants were for but the police have a lot on him he might be persuaded to cooperate if they strike a deal with him.

It would probably only work if he's just a bystander who knows something or was only peripherally involved; he wouldn't want to get off burglary charges just to get hit with kidnapping or homicide charges.

Mountain_Kat

11-03-2011, 04:13 PM

How do we know he's cooperating? he's in jail and has no choice

I was referring to what SY was quoted as saying.

But, everyone has a choice as to whether or not they will cooperate with LE...whether they are in jail or not.

MaryAnn

11-03-2011, 04:14 PM

I was referring to what SY was quoted as saying.

Oops.. sorry!!

Donjeta

11-03-2011, 04:15 PM

How do we know he's cooperating? he's in jail and has no choice

Just going by the SY quote. http://fox4kc.com/2011/11/01/womans-cell-phone-confiscated-for-baby-lisa-investigation/

Capt. Steve Young with the Kansas City Police Department says Tanko cooperated with police and they have moved on with the investigation.

I think he has a choice even though he's in jail.

Mountain_Kat

11-03-2011, 04:16 PM

Oops.. sorry!!

LOL...no need to be sorry, MaryAnn. It never hurts to ask for or offer clarification. :)

oh_gal

11-03-2011, 04:17 PM

If DB killed that baby in a drunken stupor, or otherwise, wouldn't there also be some evidence left behind? How can she be accused of being drunk and also be sober enough to be able to hide her baby's body so well that even after a month there is no sign of her?

Maybe she had help from someone who was not as drunk as she.

april_showers

11-03-2011, 04:19 PM

Honestly, if SY came right out and said, "We know Jersey didn't do it because he was in the hospital all night!", I think some people here would still argue that SY couldn't possbily know that because he wasn't stationed at the hospital room door all night, or that what SY says doesn't really matter because he's not FBI, or that it's possible that Jersey hired someone to impersonate him in the hospital (or or or).

Kinda frustrating, imo.

I hear ya, Kat... I really do!

But personally, my poor head is going back and forth on this one. Taking SY's statement at face value, I'll accept that Jersey didn't have involvement in baby Lisa's disappearance.

But then I look at that path he could have walked, the places and times he was spotted, etc. and think he had to be involved in something: with all these dumpster fires, burglaries, and the like. And then I think about LE showing DB burned clothes from said dumpster fire... and LE continually searching places where Jersey was thought to frequent during that timeframe... and I think, 'ugh! this has GOT to all be connected.'

And then I drive myself crazy again.

Do I think Jersey is single-handedly complicit: Sneaking in, stealing 3 Phones and a Baby, and splitting? No. But, could he be involved in disposal of evidence, cover up etc (even, perhaps, unknowlingly?). I'm not doubting that yet.

And why would LE be so quick to say he's been cleared, if that were the case? Because maybe they're hoping that others involved - others closer to baby Lisa - might view that as a sign that they're taking the heat off. That might cause someone guilty of something to let down their guard a bit, maybe inadvertantly reveal the key piece of evidence they're looking for?

Just my confused opinion. JMCO? I kinda like that! =)

Mountain_Kat

11-03-2011, 04:26 PM

I hear ya, Kat... I really do!

But personally, my poor head is going back and forth on this one. Taking SY's statement at face value, I'll accept that Jersey didn't have involvement in baby Lisa's disappearance.

But then I look at that path he could have walked, the places and times he was spotted, etc. and think he had to be involved in something: with all these dumpster fires, burglaries, and the like. And then I think about LE showing DB burned clothes from said dumpster fire... and LE continually searching places where Jersey was thought to frequent during that timeframe... and I think, 'ugh! this has GOT to all be connected.'

And then I drive myself crazy again.

Do I think Jersey is single-handedly complicit: Sneaking in, stealing 3 Phones and a Baby, and splitting? No. But, could he be involved in disposal of evidence, cover up etc (even, perhaps, unknowlingly?). I'm not doubting that yet.

And why would LE be so quick to say he's been cleared, if that were the case? Because maybe they're hoping that others involved - others closer to baby Lisa - might view that as a sign that they're taking the heat off. That might cause someone guilty of something to let down their guard a bit, maybe inadvertantly reveal the key piece of evidence they're looking for?

Just my confused opinion. JMCO? I kinda like that! =)

Well, ya know...there are a few things of concern to me too where Jersey is concerned. I understand why people have suspicions. What frustrates me is when people can't accept anything as fact simply because it doesn't fit their theory. I mean, we're all just trying to figure out what happened here, aren't we? Or are some of us just routing for or against someone at this point? I personally think Jeremy Irwin helped cover up whatever happened to Lisa, but if I see a video of him at Starbucks at 3 am, I'm not going to insist that he must have had an accomplice doctor that tape for him, KWIM? I'm just going to accept that I was wrong.

tink92

11-03-2011, 04:29 PM

I hear ya, Kat... I really do!

But personally, my poor head is going back and forth on this one. Taking SY's statement at face value, I'll accept that Jersey didn't have involvement in baby Lisa's disappearance.

But then I look at that path he could have walked, the places and times he was spotted, etc. and think he had to be involved in something: with all these dumpster fires, burglaries, and the like. And then I think about LE showing DB burned clothes from said dumpster fire... and LE continually searching places where Jersey was thought to frequent during that timeframe... and I think, 'ugh! this has GOT to all be connected.'

And then I drive myself crazy again.

Do I think Jersey is single-handedly complicit: Sneaking in, stealing 3 Phones and a Baby, and splitting? No. But, could he be involved in disposal of evidence, cover up etc (even, perhaps, unknowlingly?). I'm not doubting that yet.

And why would LE be so quick to say he's been cleared, if that were the case? Because maybe they're hoping that others involved - others closer to baby Lisa - might view that as a sign that they're taking the heat off. That might cause someone guilty of something to let down their guard a bit, maybe inadvertantly reveal the key piece of evidence they're looking for?

Just my confused opinion. JMCO? I kinda like that! =)

I agree that LE might be trying to take the heat off and let any accomplices relax by saying that jersey is clear....BUT...I think if the others involved were the babys family, jersey would be singing like a canary!!...Doing a deal whatever. He has no reason to protect them.

Jersey would only keep quiet if the accomplices were serious bad guys imo.

tink92

11-03-2011, 04:39 PM

Well, ya know...there are a few things of concern to me too where Jersey is concerned. I understand why people have suspicions. What frustrates me is when people can't accept anything as fact simply because it doesn't fit their theory. I mean, we're all just trying to figure out what happened here, aren't we? Or are some of us just routing for or against someone at this point? I personally think Jeremy Irwin helped cover up whatever happened to Lisa, but if I see a video of him at Starbucks at 3 am, I'm not going to insist that he must have had an accomplice doctor that tape for him, KWIM? I'm just going to accept that I was wrong.

Honestly..no offence Kat I hear ya..but its funny you should think that..i have been thinking the exact same thing but about the mom did it camp..:crazy:

It seems that some are DETERMINED mom did it and will NEVER change or bend or think or accept ANYTHING that does not fit that theory. It drives me crazy:banghead:,,,But i have learned to accept it and move on LOL!

I don't consider myself in any camp...Iam open to all and any evidence. With what is available I strongly suspect Jersey and even MW. I do not at this point suspect the parents at all...but Iam notsaying it was defo Jersey and thats that. Iam just trying to figure it all out.

Anyone here who says someone is defo guilty and they are NEVER going to change there mind no matter what ..needs to step away from the pc have a long hard think..no matter what "camp" they are in...because at this point anything could happen..its not a forgone conclusion at all!

vlpate

11-03-2011, 04:39 PM

From her interview, "
“My mom took me and my brothers and ran away to Mexico, and my mom just left us there from what I remember. I was really young."

Read more: http://www.kmbc.com/news/29660981/detail.html#ixzz1ceOzKSZE
As I said, if untreated, it can morph into antisocial personality disorder. Jails are filled with people who were abused or abandoned as children and became anti-social. Gangs are likewise filled with such young adults. Juggalos is classified as a gang in many states and by the FBI.

Parental kidnapping involves abandonment and the reactive relationship disorder stems from kidnapping, abandonment and abuse--physical, sexual and emotional.

If being excessively thin can be indicative of an eating disorder, so can being overweight.

She lied about the obvious, because numerous people on Lister knew her to be frequently in the neighborhood not just passing through.

She has an interest in pyromania. She describes her ex as a pyro. Burning blunts is smoking a certain kind of joint and is very hip among Juggalos.

Self-cuddling is a type of reassuring behavior. It is commonly seen in psychological interviews with abused children. The children comfort themselves as they have not been comforted by a parent.

You are free to have your own opinon based on your own personal thoughts and experiences. I am free to form my opinion based on scientific research and extensive trial work with abused, abandoned and kidnapped children.

What is your point?

In da Middle

11-03-2011, 04:41 PM

Well, ya know...there are a few things of concern to me too where Jersey is concerned. I understand why people have suspicions. What frustrates me is when people can't accept anything as fact simply because it doesn't fit their theory. I mean, we're all just trying to figure out what happened here, aren't we? Or are some of us just routing for or against someone at this point? I personally think Jeremy Irwin helped cover up whatever happened to Lisa, but if I see a video of him at Starbucks at 3 am, I'm not going to insist that he must have had an accomplice doctor that tape for him, KWIM? I'm just going to accept that I was wrong.
psssst Kat.....
http://www.kctv5.com/story/15940122/baby-lisas-parents-say-5-12-hour-window-for-abduction
Quote:
Police have been able to verify that Irwin was at the Starbucks until about 3:30 a.m. and nothing unusual occurred.

Mountain_Kat

11-03-2011, 04:43 PM

psssst Kat.....
http://www.kctv5.com/story/15940122/baby-lisas-parents-say-5-12-hour-window-for-abduction
Quote:

Finally! Thank you, Middle! Let me go see what it says. :)

ETA: Well wait a second...I thought JI returned home at 3:30 am. How can he be at the Starbucks and at home at the same time. I thought the Starbucks was 20 minutes from the house? Help me out here. :waitasec:

katydid23

11-03-2011, 04:45 PM

Maybe because we have empathy for DB...The poor woman has LOST HER CHILD...I think we all forget that sometimes. Then she gets dragged through the mud and called everything from cold blooded murderer to alcoholic. The woman has my sympathies..

The poor woman who 'lost her child' did not seem to have much compassion for said child. That baby was seen in her crib at 4:30, was not at the family diner at5:30, and was put in her room for the night by 6;40. And she was SICK. This poor mom never put much effort into caring for that sick child because she just piut her in her crib and then mom began power drinking. She sat outside on the stoop smoking cigs and drinking and totally IGNORED her sick infant. She even left the window open and the front door unlocked. So IF she lost her child, I am thinking it was due to her own drunken negligence. imoo

tink92

11-03-2011, 04:46 PM

psssst Kat.....
http://www.kctv5.com/story/15940122/baby-lisas-parents-say-5-12-hour-window-for-abduction
Quote:

:floorlaugh:...sorry Kat..:blushing:..Does this mean you know believe Jeremy was not involved?

waltzingmatilda

11-03-2011, 04:47 PM

LE will and do lie, ahem, mislead in pressors in order to protect the integrity of the case. I've seen it happen in too many cases. Until an arrest is made and things fall into place I don't know what to think about this case.

OT Hello sleuths! I've been following along with you all and boy do I have a ginormous headache. No big deal as I've been under the weather the past few days anyway.

Where is Lisa?

wm

Mountain_Kat

11-03-2011, 04:51 PM

:floorlaugh:...sorry Kat..:blushing:..Does this mean you know believe Jeremy was not involved?

Not just yet. I need to go back and clarify some times. :)

But there's no need to be "sorry"...I'm not invested in JI being in on anything. It's either possible or it's not possible. I'd just like the facts.

tink92

11-03-2011, 04:54 PM

Not just yet. I need to go back and clarify some times. :)

But there's no need to be "sorry"...I'm not invested in JI being in on anything. It's either possible or it's not possible. I'd just like the facts.

Then I take my hat off to you kat...you are willing..as am I to look at ALL evidence. Iam not "invested" in anyone either..but I swear some people here will have a breakdown if it turns out mom didn't do it!:crazy:

cowtowner

11-03-2011, 04:56 PM

Maybe she had help from someone who was not as drunk as she.

This is the point at which this theory must sprawl and become a conspiracy between two people. Now, in order to work, the theory says that the mother must enlist the help of someone else, probably an otherwise innocent bystander, to help dispose of the body of a 10-month-old baby.

A mom killing her baby, purposely or accidentally, and covering it up herself I can see. But getting someone else to help her hide the dead body of her 10-month-old daughter, thereby involving them as a co-conspirator in a wrongful death or murder. That's where it bends reality for me.

To me it's simply more plausible that a known recidivist criminal (Jersey) and/or a person fitting the profile of a baby abductor (MW) kidnapped her.

In da Middle

11-03-2011, 04:56 PM

Finally! Thank you, Middle! Let me go see what it says. :)

ETA: Well wait a second...I thought JI returned home at 3:30 am. How can he be at the Starbucks and at home at the same time. I thought the Starbucks was 20 minutes from the house? Help me out here. :waitasec:
Can't help you on that! I think part of the problem is there is too much 'about' in all reported times. You can lose or gain 20 minutes easy doing that. ie at work until about 3:30 being 3:20 and getting home about 3:30 being 3:40.

Donjeta

11-03-2011, 04:58 PM

Back to MW, the Mexico interview seems like TMI to me. What does her traumatic history have to do with Lisa?
http://www.kmbc.com/news/29660981/detail.html#ixzz1ceOzKSZE

I would love to see the raw tapes, what they were talking about before this and how this was connected to the conversation.

tink92

11-03-2011, 05:01 PM

Back to MW, the Mexico interview seems like TMI to me. What does her traumatic history have to do with Lisa?
http://www.kmbc.com/news/29660981/detail.html#ixzz1ceOzKSZE

I would love to see the raw tapes, what they were talking about before this and how this was connected to the conversation.

I know right?...That was a huge red flag to me. i was watching it thinking WTH is she talking about...almost like she was building her defense.

Mountain_Kat

11-03-2011, 05:02 PM

Can't help you on that! I think part of the problem is there is too much 'about' in all reported times. You can lose or gain 20 minutes easy doing that. ie at work until about 3:30 being 3:20 and getting home about 3:30 being 3:40.

Just looking at a new timeline here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57317734-504083/report-timeline-emerges-in-lisa-irwin-disappearance/ and this says JI arrived home at 3:45am. How the heck is THAT possible? Only 15 minutes to get in the house, scope out the place, chat up Debbie, find Lisa missing, run over to the neighbors and knock on her door, look around for the stolen cell phones and STILL call 911 by 4:00? Is he Clark Kent or something?

Man, I give up. :truce:

Back to the thread topic, indeed!

hambirg

11-03-2011, 05:06 PM

This is the point at which this theory must sprawl and become a conspiracy between two people. Now, in order to work, the theory says that the mother must enlist the help of someone else, probably an otherwise innocent bystander, to help dispose of the body of a 10-month-old baby.

A mom killing her baby, purposely or accidentally, and covering it up herself I can see. But getting someone else to help her hide the dead body of her 10-month-old daughter, thereby involving them as a co-conspirator in a wrongful death or murder. That's where it bends reality for me.

To me it's simply more plausible that a known recidivist criminal (Jersey) and/or a person fitting the profile of a baby abductor (MW) kidnapped her.

But I think that is an assumption. If BL died of an accidental OD, then maybe someone who helped acquire it, isn't an innocent bystander anymore.

powayparent

11-03-2011, 05:08 PM

Back to MW, the Mexico interview seems like TMI to me. What does her traumatic history have to do with Lisa?
http://www.kmbc.com/news/29660981/detail.html#ixzz1ceOzKSZE

I would love to see the raw tapes, what they were talking about before this and how this was connected to the conversation.

I don't think it's odd for her to have drawn a parallel to something she experienced. Many have done so here as well in talking about how they felt when their child was momentarily missing in a store etc.

tink92

11-03-2011, 05:10 PM

Just looking at a new timeline here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57317734-504083/report-timeline-emerges-in-lisa-irwin-disappearance/ and this says JI arrived home at 3:45am. How the heck is THAT possible? Only 15 minutes to get in the house, scope out the place, chat up Debbie, find Lisa missing, run over to the neighbors and knock on her door, look around for the stolen cell phones and STILL call 911 by 4:00? Is he Clark Kent or something?

Man, I give up. :truce:

Back to the thread topic, indeed!

I think 15 mins is about right. It was probably only mere minutes walking in the house to discovering baby gone...run round house..run to neighbours..call 911...seems right to me.

Mountain_Kat

11-03-2011, 05:15 PM

I think 15 mins is about right. It was probably only mere minutes walking in the house to discovering baby gone...run round house..run to neighbours..call 911...seems right to me.

Doesn't seem right to me, but honestly, I'm at the point where I don't even care anymore. Every single account and timeline of that night changes at the drop of a hat. Let LE sort it out. I'm just gonna sit here and read. :banghead:

cityslick

11-03-2011, 05:15 PM

I think 15 mins is about right. It was probably only mere minutes walking in the house to discovering baby gone...run round house..run to neighbours..call 911...seems right to me.

I agree, 15 mins is longer than you think, especially if your running on the adreneline of the moment.

tink92

11-03-2011, 05:15 PM

I don't think it's odd for her to have drawn a parallel to something she experienced. Many have done so here as well in talking about how they felt when their child was momentarily missing in a store etc.

I think i just found it quite narcissistic (I can't spell :crazy: ) that she would think we want to hear her sob story about her childhood.

i was thinking..its not about you??..Its about lisa!!

I hate to say it and i could be way off...but it reminded me off a certain casey anthonys sob story about a traumatic childhood..that turned out to be her whole defense!

april_showers

11-03-2011, 05:18 PM

I agree that LE might be trying to take the heat off and let any accomplices relax by saying that jersey is clear....BUT...I think if the others involved were the babys family, jersey would be singing like a canary!!...Doing a deal whatever. He has no reason to protect them.

Jersey would only keep quiet if the accomplices were serious bad guys imo.

That's a really good point, Tink. Especially with the charges he's up against, why wouldn't he rat them out? With LE saying he's cooperating, I do wonder what he has told them. Also makes me wonder where the multiple questioning of MW comes into play (last report, from her, was that she'd been questioned seven times). At first I'd thought this was to finger Jersey, but if much/some/even a little of that questioning happened after Jersey was in custody, I wonder what he told them?

Donjeta

11-03-2011, 05:18 PM

I don't think it's odd for her to have drawn a parallel to something she experienced. Many have done so here as well in talking about how they felt when their child was momentarily missing in a store etc.

Yes but we're not doing so on video in MSM, usually. It's different on a discussion forum, more casual, rambling about this and that, lots of people leading the conversation to a ton of topics. It just feels strange to me, to have MW on video on which the only topic is how bad she felt in her childhood. Nothing whatsoever about Lisa, just her.

I don't know, maybe it's the editing, she could have had more relevant things to say but the editor cut to the crying part.

powayparent

11-03-2011, 05:21 PM

I think i just found it quite narcissistic (I can't spell :crazy: ) that she would think we want to hear her sob story about her childhood.

i was thinking..its not about you??..Its about lisa!!

I hate to say it and i could be way off...but it reminded me off a certain casey anthonys sob story about a traumatic childhood..that turned out to be her whole defense!

I guess all we know is that a producer thought it made a good sound bite.

tink92

11-03-2011, 05:23 PM

Doesn't seem right to me, but honestly, I'm at the point where I don't even care anymore. Every single account and timeline of that night changes at the drop of a hat. Let LE sort it out. I'm just gonna sit here and read. :banghead:

What doesn't seem right?....Jeremy was at work all night on camera till 3.30 ish...home about 3.45..911 called 4am. 15 mins is PLENTY of time from entering the house to dialling 911...If it had been any longer people would be saying they had delayed calling to hide the body!..They can't win.

jus sayin

11-03-2011, 05:36 PM

I only felt confused until I saw the neighbor who described how easily Jersey breaks into houses. This link, he tells a little of it, but I had seen a video of him on tv where he described Jersey's behavior at length.
http://fox4kc.com/2011/11/01/womans-cell-phone-confiscated-for-baby-lisa-investigation/
Since He was So clever at breaking into houses, and had such a long record of theft, it just seemed like "old Jersey" would be doing what comes naturally, and break into DB house when he saw them out front partying, even with kids inside, the adults were "distracted" and the adults were where he could keep an eye on them while he checked their home to see if there was anything he could sell. Then someone said, "but what motive?" I imagined myself as Jersey, I'm in the kitchen, I've got the phones, the baby starts making sounds like she is going to wake up. Maybe he don't want to leave fast, maybe he knows of something more valuable he really needs to steal and sell. Then, maybe the kids have gone over to the neighbors. He tries to shush up the baby, and it is an accident. I just can't see anybody wanting to go kill a baby, especially the parents or other relatives.

Karmaa

11-03-2011, 05:53 PM

I think 15 mins is about right. It was probably only mere minutes walking in the house to discovering baby gone...run round house..run to neighbours..call 911...seems right to me.

It probably FELT like hours to the family at the time. I would guess that when something that stressful and that horrible happens, your normal senses shut down, and nothing is as it seems. That's one reason I have no problem with the family's stories changing in the insignificant ways that it has. JMO

jadejazzkayla

11-03-2011, 05:57 PM

I think i just found it quite narcissistic (I can't spell :crazy: ) that she would think we want to hear her sob story about her childhood.

i was thinking..its not about you??..Its about lisa!!

We hear stories about our posters everyday when our posts reminds them of something in their past. I think it's natural not narcissistic.

tink92

11-03-2011, 06:08 PM

We hear stories about our posters everyday when our posts reminds them of something in their past. I think it's natural not narcissistic.

Thats totally different. We are chatting on a forum..not being interviewed on national TV about a missing baby...:waitasec:

Of course WE are going to share stories WE are discussing every minor detail!

All though even on here I don't see that many stories or background ifo from posters...we all mostly stay on topic. Because we all know this is about LISA..not about US.

MW couldn't even keep it about lisa or on topic about the phone for that ONE interview!!..She started weirdly filling us all in on her tragic life...it was beyond strange.:ohwow:

Mountain_Kat

11-03-2011, 06:10 PM

What doesn't seem right?....Jeremy was at work all night on camera till 3.30 ish...home about 3.45..911 called 4am. 15 mins is PLENTY of time from entering the house to dialling 911...If it had been any longer people would be saying they had delayed calling to hide the body!..They can't win.

I was referring more to the reporting of the time he arrived home. I've read 3:00, 3:30, 3:45, 4:00. Jeremy Irwin doesn't have to "win" with me...I just want to know what time the guy actually got home. That's all. You wouldn't think this would be so difficult for msm to agree on. Especially if they can confirm that he was at work via video. And yet...it is.

It's annoying. And it's also off topic, so I'm shutting up about it now. ;)

StrayKat

11-03-2011, 06:13 PM

You know, I tell you what, I would really like to hear from SY's mouth himself that Jersey is cleared. In the reports I've seen, he indeed states that police are moving on, but it's the reporter who says "he's been cleared". I'm not doubting he said it; this is strictly infornmation-seeking, and would probably help clear up the confusion.

Exactly my point... the only thing that he is directly quoted as saying is that they have spoke to him and are moving on. The various reporters report exactly what they took that to mean. Notice exactly what he is being "quoted" as saying. JMO

cityslick

11-03-2011, 06:15 PM

I was referring more to the reporting of the time he arrived home. I've read 3:00, 3:30, 3:45, 4:00. Jeremy Irwin doesn't have to "win" with me...I just want to know what time the guy actually got home. That's all. You wouldn't think this would be so difficult for msm to agree on. Especially if they can confirm that he was at work via video.

It's annoying. And it's also off topic, so I'm shutting up about it now. ;)
MK it's getting to point where if it's not confirmed by LE, you don't know what to believe. LE said they were not going to investigate this through the media. I can see why.

Mountain_Kat

11-03-2011, 06:22 PM

MK it's getting to point where if it's not confirmed by LE, you don't know what to believe. LE said they were not going to investigate this through the media. I can see why.

Well, you have to deal with bad reporting in every case. I'm used to that. But the way the info keeps significantly changing in this case....geez. Jersey is in his 20's, then he's in his 40's. Lisa was last seen at 10:30, no it was 6:30. Man sees a man wearing t-shirt and jeans carrying a baby clad only in a diaper...oops, no...the man was dressed all in white and the baby had on a t-shirt and training pants. MW got a call to her phone at 2:30 am...no wait...8:30 pm. :banghead:

Seriously, I agree with you, the cops should keep their mouths shut wrt the media. Who knows what kind of mess this investigation would be if the cops were talking.

In da Middle

11-03-2011, 06:51 PM

Well, you have to deal with bad reporting in every case. I'm used to that. But the way the info keeps significantly changing in this case....geez. Jersey is in his 20's, then he's in his 40's. Lisa was last seen at 10:30, no it was 6:30. Man sees a man wearing t-shirt and jeans carrying a baby clad only in a diaper...oops, no...the man was dressed all in white and the baby had on a t-shirt and training pants. MW got a call to her phone at 2:30 am...no wait...8:30 pm. :banghead:

Seriously, I agree with you, the cops should keep their mouths shut wrt the media. Who knows what kind of mess this investigation would be if the cops were talking.
And this very thing is why I am not real concerned about DB's timeline changing. I think the media is doing most of the changing.

21merc7

11-03-2011, 06:53 PM

And this very thing is why I am not real concerned about DB's timeline changing. I think the media is doing most of the changing.

Yes it is media. We got 2 new time-lines within less than 24 hours via media. Yesterday and today. Maybe more, I can't keep up with everything.

Sparklin

11-03-2011, 07:01 PM

The poor woman who 'lost her child' did not seem to have much compassion for said child. That baby was seen in her crib at 4:30, was not at the family diner at5:30, and was put in her room for the night by 6;40. And she was SICK. This poor mom never put much effort into caring for that sick child because she just piut her in her crib and then mom began power drinking. She sat outside on the stoop smoking cigs and drinking and totally IGNORED her sick infant. She even left the window open and the front door unlocked. So IF she lost her child, I am thinking it was due to her own drunken negligence. imoo

BL could have been in her crib at 4:30 for a few minutes to be changed or for any number of reasons. She could also have been at the dinner table. We don't have all the facts and def. don't have a consistent timeline - and being put to bed at 6:40 for an 11 month old, doesn't seem so horrid to me. Should she have checked on her in the meantime before bed? yes! Did she? uncertain! DB has stated that it was a nightly event that she did, so she thought she had, but couldn't be 100% sure because of the drinking. Wrong? Irresponsible? Absolutely! But not anything more sinister. The person/people responsible for BL being missing is the person/people who took her. Was it mom? I don't know but neither does anyone else.

cluciano63

11-03-2011, 07:09 PM

And this very thing is why I am not real concerned about DB's timeline changing. I think the media is doing most of the changing.

Hopefully DB will soon clear this up with LE, if not for us.

StrayKat

11-03-2011, 07:14 PM

I wanted to post those 2 different pics of "Jersey" but, I don't know how. I wonder what he looks like now. He does look a lot different in them. Can anyone help me with this? Also, does anyone know if the LE is back at the woods, AGAIN?

StrayKat

11-03-2011, 07:16 PM

Also, can anyone find out anything about his past, as in marriages, children, childhood? I have not read anything about him... other than what I can find and I know some of you have a few tricks up your sleeve.

vlpate

11-03-2011, 07:34 PM

This is the point at which this theory must sprawl and become a conspiracy between two people. Now, in order to work, the theory says that the mother must enlist the help of someone else, probably an otherwise innocent bystander, to help dispose of the body of a 10-month-old baby.

A mom killing her baby, purposely or accidentally, and covering it up herself I can see. But getting someone else to help her hide the dead body of her 10-month-old daughter, thereby involving them as a co-conspirator in a wrongful death or murder. That's where it bends reality for me.

To me it's simply more plausible that a known recidivist criminal (Jersey) and/or a person fitting the profile of a baby abductor (MW) kidnapped her.
BEM:
MW does not fit the profile of a baby abductor at all. http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PageServlet?LanguageCountry=en_US&PageId=3086

Profile of a "Typical" Infant Abductor

This list was developed from an analysis of 256 cases occurring 1983-2008.

The Abductor

Is usually female of “childbearing” age (range now 12 to 53) and often overweight.
Is most likely compulsive; most often relies on manipulation, lying, and deception.
Frequently indicates she has lost a baby or is incapable of having one.
Is often married or cohabitating; companion’s desire for a child or the abductor’s desire to provide her companion with “his” child may be the motivation for the abduction.
Usually lives in the community where the abduction takes place.
Frequently initially visits nursery and maternity units at more than one healthcare facility prior to the abduction; asks detailed questions about procedures and the maternity floor layout; frequently uses a fire-exit stairwell for her escape; and may also try to abduct from the home setting.
Usually plans the abduction, but does not necessarily target a specific infant; frequently seizes any opportunity present.
Frequently impersonates a nurse or other allied healthcare personnel.
Often becomes familiar with healthcare staff members, staff members work routines, and victim parents.
Demonstrates a capability to provide “good” care to the baby once the abduction occurs.
In addition an abductor who abducts FROM THE HOME SETTING

Is more likely to be single while claiming to have a partner.
Often targets a mother whom she may find by visiting healthcare facilities and tries to meet the target family.
Often both plans the abduction and brings a weapon, although the weapon may not be used.

Often impersonates a healthcare or social-services professional when visiting the home.

Cortne

11-03-2011, 07:44 PM

And this very thing is why I am not real concerned about DB's timeline changing. I think the media is doing most of the changing.

Very much agreed. Not bashing at all but there will always be people esp ones that don't sleuth, ones that mainly watch news on the boob tube, that believe every word they hear and judge accordingly. Like people whom believe if you are in cuffs or being questioned you are guilty of something. Which can be true as well lol. So circle speak is what I'm doing here but I hope you get my drift.

If DB drinks that much wine 2 to 3 times a week I don't get how she could have passed out so hard unless she added something to the fun that evening and hell I don't judge her if she did. But that's me and just my opinion. I also don't know how all these timeline changes are to have happened when she was toasted. No way. She had box o wine the bff had liquor. Id bet my last dollar she was def drunk as that wine ain't for the weak lol. Maybe SB didn't like boxed wine. I don't condone her actions that evening either. After two or three drinks she should have went to bed. Seems they did start early as the hubbin or co hab partner is working and the other one is booted at least for that night out of the home. The girls had some smoking drinking gossiping to do. Really does happen more than most are willing to admit. Minus the baby is gone part :(

Imo these timeline changes are not from with in baby Lisa's house.

All jmo

Niner

11-03-2011, 07:48 PM

Yes, because it's a little strange to me that he would still be in jail for an outstanding warrant. They picked him on the outstanding warrant to talk to him about Lisa's disappearance, IMO, and from what I understand he's still behind bars.

As I sort out my thoughts, I think it's very possible that call came in to MW's phone for Jersey... for help a little later in the night. I'm contradicting my prior opinions that DB worked alone, but the call to MW's phone and her connection to Jersey is cause for a raised eyebrow.

Just jumping off your post here... and thinking out loud!

Now the phone call at 8:30pm is from one of the "stolen" phones calling MW's phone - now - is the 2:30am phone call from the same "stolen" phone - or do we know that yet. And to 'where' that 2:30am went to (phone/person)??

TIA! :seeya: still trying to catch with all this 'new' stuff!

vlpate

11-03-2011, 07:51 PM

Also, can anyone find out anything about his past, as in marriages, children, childhood? I have not read anything about him... other than what I can find and I know some of you have a few tricks up your sleeve.

He's from....Jersey. He has a long criminal history and has spent a lot of time in prison and county jails. His charges in Jersey included arson, assault with a deadly weapon, tampering with witnesses.....and then there are the Missouri charges.

I find it hard to believe he is cleared, but these things don't necessarily mean kidnapper. But....dang, hard not to want to connect the dots.

Gardenlady

11-03-2011, 07:57 PM

I only felt confused until I saw the neighbor who described how easily Jersey breaks into houses. This link, he tells a little of it, but I had seen a video of him on tv where he described Jersey's behavior at length.
http://fox4kc.com/2011/11/01/womans-cell-phone-confiscated-for-baby-lisa-investigation/
Since He was So clever at breaking into houses, and had such a long record of theft, it just seemed like "old Jersey" would be doing what comes naturally, and break into DB house when he saw them out front partying, even with kids inside, the adults were "distracted" and the adults were where he could keep an eye on them while he checked their home to see if there was anything he could sell. Then someone said, "but what motive?" I imagined myself as Jersey, I'm in the kitchen, I've got the phones, the baby starts making sounds like she is going to wake up. Maybe he don't want to leave fast, maybe he knows of something more valuable he really needs to steal and sell. Then, maybe the kids have gone over to the neighbors. He tries to shush up the baby, and it is an accident. I just can't see anybody wanting to go kill a baby, especially the parents or other relatives.

BBM

Maybe the guns in the bedroom?

21merc7

11-03-2011, 07:59 PM

Has anyone seen this yet, get ready to SCREAM!

Kansas City police said they are not actively searching for 11-month-old Lisa Irwin. Police also said the parents still are not cooperating in the investigation.
by Karen Yancey/Staff 7:08 PM

http://livewire.kmbc.com/Event/Live_Blog_Amber_Alert_Issued_For_Missing_10-Month-Old#ixzz1cgmSXkKW

cluciano63

11-03-2011, 08:02 PM

I am not sure how KCPD can actively search for the baby any longer. That doesn't mean they are not responding to tips or following leads or working on the case; but where would you have them search? They searched diligently for days on end. All physical searches come to an end, usually far sooner than anyone would like. LE is probably kinda stuck, seeing how they are working a missing baby case without the help of the parents, a first as far as I know...JMO

vlpate

11-03-2011, 08:02 PM

He's from....Jersey. He has a long criminal history and has spent a lot of time in prison and county jails. His charges in Jersey included arson, assault with a deadly weapon, tampering with witnesses.....and then there are the Missouri charges.

I find it hard to believe he is cleared, but these things don't necessarily mean kidnapper. But....dang, hard not to want to connect the dots.

By the way, I read somewhere that the last arson was 20 years ago, but it wasn't, it was 1998, the aggravated assault/deadly weapon 2006. This is public information.

Cher352

11-03-2011, 08:02 PM

Just jumping off your post here... and thinking out loud!

Now the phone call at 8:30pm is from one of the "stolen" phones calling MW's phone - now - is the 2:30am phone call from the same "stolen" phone - or do we know that yet. And to 'where' that 2:30am went to (phone/person)??

TIA! :seeya: still trying to catch with all this 'new' stuff!

Unless things have changed....

The only person we got the 8:30pm time was from MW, that is the time she said LE told her. Can't remember where got the 2:30am time from, but I don't think it was LE.

People have speculated here that perhaps the real time was never really 2:30 am but was actually 2030 using the 24 hr clock which would equal 8:30pm on the 12 hr clock.

cowtowner

11-03-2011, 08:03 PM

BEM:
MW does not fit the profile of a baby abductor at all. http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PageServlet?LanguageCountry=en_US&PageId=3086

Profile of a "Typical" Infant Abductor

This list was developed from an analysis of 256 cases occurring 1983-2008.

The Abductor

Is usually female of “childbearing” age (range now 12 to 53) and often overweight.
Is most likely compulsive; most often relies on manipulation, lying, and deception.
Frequently indicates she has lost a baby or is incapable of having one.
Is often married or cohabitating; companion’s desire for a child or the abductor’s desire to provide her companion with “his” child may be the motivation for the abduction.
Usually lives in the community where the abduction takes place.
Frequently initially visits nursery and maternity units at more than one healthcare facility prior to the abduction; asks detailed questions about procedures and the maternity floor layout; frequently uses a fire-exit stairwell for her escape; and may also try to abduct from the home setting.
Usually plans the abduction, but does not necessarily target a specific infant; frequently seizes any opportunity present.
Frequently impersonates a nurse or other allied healthcare personnel.
Often becomes familiar with healthcare staff members, staff members work routines, and victim parents.
Demonstrates a capability to provide “good” care to the baby once the abduction occurs.
In addition an abductor who abducts FROM THE HOME SETTING

Is more likely to be single while claiming to have a partner.
Often targets a mother whom she may find by visiting healthcare facilities and tries to meet the target family.
Often both plans the abduction and brings a weapon, although the weapon may not be used.

Often impersonates a healthcare or social-services professional when visiting the home.

With all due respect, did you read that list? She actually matches some traits from the description you found on the Internet.

Including:
Is usually female of “childbearing” age (range now 12 to 53) and often overweight.
Is often married or cohabitating; (she said she lived with Jersey and now says she lives with eight other people)
Usually lives in the community where the abduction takes place. (is blocks away "in the community?")
Usually plans the abduction, but does not necessarily target a specific infant; frequently seizes any opportunity present. (I'd say this would count as seizing any opportunity.)

I mean, I don't know how one can say "MW does not fit the profile of a baby abductor at all. " and then post a linked profile where MW matches some of the traits found to be common to a baby abductor.

It could very well be that MW meets more of the criteria than we're currently aware of. Example, she may:
Is more likely to be single while claiming to have a partner. (don't know what she's claimed her status to be now)
Often targets a mother whom she may find by visiting healthcare facilities and tries to meet the target family. (There's been reports that DB had MW's number written on her hand, maybe they had met.)
Often both plans the abduction and brings a weapon, although the weapon may not be used. (she could have done this but we won't know this until we have more info.)

StrayKat

11-03-2011, 08:06 PM

Just jumping off your post here... and thinking out loud!

Now the phone call at 8:30pm is from one of the "stolen" phones calling MW's phone - now - is the 2:30am phone call from the same "stolen" phone - or do we know that yet. And to 'where' that 2:30am went to (phone/person)??

TIA! :seeya: still trying to catch with all this 'new' stuff!

FWIW - 8:30 is what JVM said on HLN... all other news media (that I have seen) reported 2:30. I think JVM just reported the wrong time. JMO

vlpate

11-03-2011, 08:06 PM

Has anyone seen this yet, get ready to SCREAM!

Kansas City police said they are not actively searching for 11-month-old Lisa Irwin. Police also said the parents still are not cooperating in the investigation.
by Karen Yancey/Staff 7:08 PM

http://livewire.kmbc.com/Event/Live_Blog_Amber_Alert_Issued_For_Missing_10-Month-Old#ixzz1cgmSXkKW

So sad. The parents need to answer whatever questions they have for them. They should be devastated to hear this news. Insane.

Cher352

11-03-2011, 08:10 PM

Has anyone seen this yet, get ready to SCREAM!

Kansas City police said they are not actively searching for 11-month-old Lisa Irwin. Police also said the parents still are not cooperating in the investigation.
by Karen Yancey/Staff 7:08 PM

http://livewire.kmbc.com/Event/Live_Blog_Amber_Alert_Issued_For_Missing_10-Month-Old#ixzz1cgmSXkKW

What????

I had never seen a missing child case that LE gives up on in just one month.
Perhaps they know for sure what really happened but if they do why aren't they arresting someone. Even if LE knows for sure that she is dead I would think they would still be searching for a body.

Confused!

Jaxson

11-03-2011, 08:12 PM

Maybe Lisa was in the crib at 4:30 for only a short while. Mom went to store with bro and dad is getting ready for work.

katydid23

11-03-2011, 08:12 PM

BL could have been in her crib at 4:30 for a few minutes to be changed or for any number of reasons. She could also have been at the dinner table. We don't have all the facts and def. don't have a consistent timeline - and being put to bed at 6:40 for an 11 month old, doesn't seem so horrid to me. Should she have checked on her in the meantime before bed? yes! Did she? uncertain! DB has stated that it was a nightly event that she did, so she thought she had, but couldn't be 100% sure because of the drinking. Wrong? Irresponsible? Absolutely! But not anything more sinister. The person/people responsible for BL being missing is the person/people who took her. Was it mom? I don't know but neither does anyone else.

Who changes a baby in their crib? The timeline said the neighbor looked in on the baby who was 'in her crib at 4:30.' It did not sound like it was temporary.

And in people magazine EVERYONE else was listed except for the baby in the dinner description. DB made dinner for her boys and the neighbor and her daughter. No mention of Lisa being included in the dinner.

And the neighbor's LAST mention of seeing Lisa was at 4:30, in her crib. So that tells me that she was NOT at dinner with the rest of them. That seems to say that Lisa was pretty much down for the night at 4:30. Maybe she was up for a diaper change and then given a bottle and put to bed for the night at 6;40. That is what it seems like to me from what I have read.

Then mom began power drinking. She did not just have a glass of wine or two with her friend. She had between 5 and 10, probably closer to 10, imo.
And she left the window open and maybe the door unlocked. THAT is negligent and dangerous. What if one of the kids had an emergency that night, fell out of their bunk, cut themselves by accident? Would she have been too passed out to help them?

StrayKat

11-03-2011, 08:12 PM

With all due respect, did you read that list? She actually matches some traits from the description you found on the Internet.

Including:
Is usually female of “childbearing” age (range now 12 to 53) and often overweight.
Is often married or cohabitating;
Usually lives in the community where the abduction takes place.
Usually plans the abduction, but does not necessarily target a specific infant; frequently seizes any opportunity present.
Often targets a mother whom she may find by visiting healthcare facilities and tries to meet the target family.

The profile conveyed to me was straight from retired LE officers who've found abducted infants. She fits those criteria.

I don't think she knows or had anything to do with it. That is my opinion of course. As for why he would take the baby... Pedophiles are being arrested everyday. They include doctors, teachers, counselors, coaches, etc...
JMO

katydid23

11-03-2011, 08:16 PM

Maybe Lisa was in the crib at 4:30 for only a short while. Mom went to store with bro and dad is getting ready for work.

Maybe. But it bothers me because there was no inclusion of Lisa in the description of dinner time in People magazine either. They listed everyone else, and not Lisa. So IF she was seen in her crib at 4;30, and was not at dinner at 5;30 either, and then put to bed at 6;40., it soiunds like she was pretty much in her crib from 4;30 on. ESPECIALLY BECAUSE THE NEIGHBORS LAST SIGHTING WAS APPARENTLY AT 4:30.

cluciano63

11-03-2011, 08:16 PM

What????

I had never seen a missing child case that LE gives up on in just one month.
Perhaps they know for sure what really happened but if they do why aren't they arresting someone. Even if LE knows for sure that she is dead I would think they would still be searching for a body.

Confused!

Searching where? Just wandering around KC looking under piles of leaves, etc? They scoured the woods, looked in bodies of water, searched empty houses, went door to door...I don't know what they can do, when they can't sit down and work with those who saw her last, who may hold some little clue to other people who may have entered Lisa's life in some way, etc...this does not mean they are not following up on any leads or sightings, working the case, etc...JMO

StrayKat

11-03-2011, 08:16 PM

What????

I had never seen a missing child case that LE gives up on in just one month.
Perhaps they know for sure what really happened but if they do why aren't they arresting someone. Even if LE knows for sure that she is dead I would think they would still be searching for a body.

Confused!

I doubt they have given up. They probably want a body to make an arrest or at least be able to prove a conviction of a crimeWithout a Doubt! JMO

cowtowner

11-03-2011, 08:16 PM

What????

I had never seen a missing child case that LE gives up on in just one month.
Perhaps they know for sure what really happened but if they do why aren't they arresting someone. Even if LE knows for sure that she is dead I would think they would still be searching for a body.

Confused!

Depressed.

MaryAnn

11-03-2011, 08:20 PM

Can we trust the Media to tell the truth? That's awful! How could it be that LE has stopped looking for Little Lisa. I'm not bashing LE, but it doesn't seem like they have ever looked for her. This is horrible but do you think they know she is deceased and was in the dumpster but aren't saying anything to catch the killer and DB and JI already know and that's why DB said she was grieving! My head is spinning... That poor baby, where the heck is she?

Niner

11-03-2011, 08:23 PM

Unless things have changed....

The only person we got the 8:30pm time was from MW, that is the time she said LE told her. Can't remember where got the 2:30am time from, but I don't think it was LE.

People have speculated here that perhaps the real time was never really 2:30 am but was actually 2030 using the 24 hr clock which would equal 8:30pm on the 12 hr clock.

Thanks Cher!! That 2030 is a good explanation for the 8:30pm call!!! :seeya:

Niner

11-03-2011, 08:26 PM

FWIW - 8:30 is what JVM said on HLN... all other news media (that I have seen) reported 2:30. I think JVM just reported the wrong time. JMO

Oh NO! JVM?? *****... I thought Cher's response was a good one - maybe that's how JVM took it... she "saw" 2030, and changed it to 8:30pm... :waitasec:

vlpate

11-03-2011, 08:27 PM

With all due respect, did you read that list? She actually matches some traits from the description you found on the Internet.

Including:
Is usually female of “childbearing” age (range now 12 to 53) Come on...and often overweight. So are 33% of Americans
Is often married or cohabitating; "To whom is she married or cohabitating with? The seven other people don't count - this description means a significant other
Usually lives in the community where the abduction takes place.
Alone, this means nothing
Usually plans the abduction, but does not necessarily target a specific infant; frequently seizes any opportunity present.
How so, explain please? Did she plan the abduction and you have a source? How did she seize an opportunity? Was she there? Source?
Often targets a mother whom she may find by visiting healthcare facilities and tries to meet the target family. Did they visit a healthcare facility together?

The profile conveyed to me was straight from retired LE officers who've found abducted infants. She fits those criteria.

The profile conveyed to me, via the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, tells me all you have is a demographic that fits 30% + of the population in KC.

She doesn't fit the profile of a baby snatcher, but you can still think she had something to do with it. The Dingo didn't fit any of this criteria either ;)

Littleone48

11-03-2011, 08:34 PM

If jersey was in that house and stole Lisa, there would be evidence left behind. He should be ruled in or out by now. No one goes walking through a house, stealing a baby, turning on the lights in every room (but not the baby's room) and leaves the house w/o leaving prints, fibers or hair.

This is not true..Westerfield was placed on death row for the murder of Danielle Vandam. He kidnapped her from her home. He did not leave any fingerprints, fibers or hair in the home or at the dump site.....

who knew?

11-03-2011, 08:51 PM

Has anyone seen this yet, get ready to SCREAM!

Kansas City police said they are not actively searching for 11-month-old Lisa Irwin. Police also said the parents still are not cooperating in the investigation.by Karen Yancey/Staff 7:08 PM

http://livewire.kmbc.com/Event/Live_Blog_Amber_Alert_Issued_For_Missing_10-Month-Old#ixzz1cgmSXkKW

And this is the reason I think the parents are involved. Most of us would be pushing LE to find our baby - not only would we answer every question, we would have questions of our own and would move heaven and earth to get our baby back.

jadejazzkayla

11-03-2011, 08:51 PM

Thats totally different. We are chatting on a forum..not being interviewed on national TV about a missing baby...:waitasec:

MW couldn't even keep it about lisa or on topic about the phone for that ONE interview!!..She started weirdly filling us all in on her tragic life...it was beyond strange.:ohwow:

sbm..I don't think it is very different. people tend to talk about themselves. We are all here on this forum by choice - to talk about lisa and there are many instances of "personal stories" by our members.

MW does not know Lisa or her family - she may very well not be a member of a missing person forum. If a reporter chooses to seek MW out and interview her and show that interview on tv or print - - MW is under no obligation to be interviewed or to make any interview she decides to do - to be all about lisa. The reporter is responsible for the content of their work.

There are many people in this country who know nothing of this case nor care to.

I think of MW as innocent victim of circumstances and I'm grateful for any tidbit of information we can garner from her.

Cracka*Jaxx

11-03-2011, 09:00 PM

People have speculated here that perhaps the real time was never really 2:30 am but was actually 2030 using the 24 hr clock which would equal 8:30pm on the 12 hr clock.
That makes a lot of sense.

On another note, I'm finding it impossible to believe that these parents have nothing to hide, considering all the 'defense' lawyers they are hiding behind. They haven't been charged with any crime so why the need for defense lawyers? And why so many? Obviously, they are afraid of the truth.

And I wonder, why can't these lawyers be charged with Obstruction of Justice? They're preventing LE from gathering information that may help in the recovery of Baby Lisa. They're stepping in the way of Baby Lisa's rights to be safe from harm. It would be about time one of these ambulance chasers be charged with a crime.

Quiche

11-03-2011, 09:20 PM

Is it known how long Jersey has been house sitting down the street? Does he get to stay there when they're home, as well?

who knew?

11-03-2011, 09:28 PM

That makes a lot of sense.

On another note, I'm finding it impossible to believe that these parents have nothing to hide, considering all the 'defense' lawyers they are hiding behind. They haven't been charged with any crime so why the need for defense lawyers? And why so many? Obviously, they are afraid of the truth.

And I wonder, why can't these lawyers be charged with Obstruction of Justice? They're preventing LE from gathering information that may help in the recovery of Baby Lisa. They're stepping in the way of Baby Lisa's rights to be safe from harm. It would be about time one of these ambulance chasers be charged with a crime.

Hmmmmmm.... Makes you wonder if maybe they know where the baby is....

dovebar

11-03-2011, 09:28 PM

I thought it was strange too. How would LE know so quickly that Jersey wasn't involved when this is supposed to be an on going investigation? If LE had all the answers there would have been an arrest. And why did LE initially disregard the 12:15 sighting? A baby is missing and LE disregards a baby sighting around the same time, same neighborhood, of a man going up the yard of a house that Jersey had worked at and broken into. I think LE developed their own theory early and blew off anything that didn't fit their theory. Now LE is trying to catch up and I hope it's not too late.

You're not alone in thinking this. A MONTH later, and they're just now investigating the route that a kidnapper would take from the child's house to the reported sighting of a man w/baby in the middle of the night? What kind of shape will those shoe prints be? Has it rained since? Etc. This police department is right up there with the San Diego PD.

Mountain_Kat

11-03-2011, 09:50 PM

You're not alone in thinking this. A MONTH later, and they're just now investigating the route that a kidnapper would take from the child's house to the reported sighting of a man w/baby in the middle of the night? What kind of shape will those shoe prints be? Has it rained since? Etc. This police department is right up there with the San Diego PD.

Umm...LE investigated the neighbor's yard and footprints very early on. The next day, if I recall.

(But I'm getting ready to go to bed, so I can't track down the link for you.)

dovebar

11-03-2011, 09:55 PM

Umm...LE investigated the neighbor's yard and footprints very early on. The next day, if I recall.

(But I'm getting ready to go to bed, so I can't track down the link for you.)

Then why are they just taking casts of prints now? It doesn't seem like they did so very seriously or thoroughly, if they did so before.

Darcyline

11-03-2011, 09:55 PM

It feels like people are down on LE in this case, but I have seen them do nothing but be really, really vigorous. Even locals said they have been all over the neighborhood interviewing, various pictures, examining routes, collecting evidence, looking into sightings, etc.
That is why I TEND to think they know something we don't and that is why the case is currently drifting the way it is instead of Jersey being charged at this second for murdering or selling Baby Lisa.

Mountain_Kat

11-03-2011, 09:57 PM

Then why are they just taking casts of prints now? It doesn't seem like they did so very seriously or thoroughly, if they did so before.

Where did you see that, Dovebar?

In da Middle

11-03-2011, 09:58 PM

I wanted to post those 2 different pics of "Jersey" but, I don't know how. I wonder what he looks like now. He does look a lot different in them. Can anyone help me with this? Also, does anyone know if the LE is back at the woods, AGAIN?
Not in these woods anyway. I really don't know what else they would find in these woods with as many times they have been searched. They have been in there multiple times, multiple ways - foot, dogs, atv, horse. It rained most of the day today also.

StrayKat

11-03-2011, 10:03 PM

You're not alone in thinking this. A MONTH later, and they're just now investigating the route that a kidnapper would take from the child's house to the reported sighting of a man w/baby in the middle of the night? What kind of shape will those shoe prints be? Has it rained since? Etc. This police department is right up there with the San Diego PD.

It has been reported by a neighbor that impressions were taken of those prints. The area in and around that route, as well as, the houses inside and out were also searched. Law enforcement was looking for "Jersey" right away... since, they were taking his photo to neighbors and asking if they had seen him prior to the baby going missing. JMO

dovebar

11-03-2011, 10:09 PM

Locals reported that this was happening again TODAY, but threads are moving fast enough that I can't find the link again (will continue to look). I'm not saying that some LE didn't do SOME cursory investigation of this early on - but it's clear that they have had the DB theory operating at warp speed and the fact that prints in a yard might not have been cast immediately is very serious. Even if they do develop another suspect, his attorney will have "reasonable doubt" as to all the other reasons he could have been in that yard since the child's disappearance.

katshep

11-03-2011, 10:21 PM

With all due respect, did you read that list? She actually matches some traits from the description you found on the Internet.

Including:
Is usually female of “childbearing” age (range now 12 to 53) and often overweight.
Is often married or cohabitating; (she said she lived with Jersey and now says she lives with eight other people)
Usually lives in the community where the abduction takes place. (is blocks away "in the community?")
Usually plans the abduction, but does not necessarily target a specific infant; frequently seizes any opportunity present. (I'd say this would count as seizing any opportunity.)

I mean, I don't know how one can say "MW does not fit the profile of a baby abductor at all. " and then post a linked profile where MW matches some of the traits found to be common to a baby abductor.

It could very well be that MW meets more of the criteria than we're currently aware of. Example, she may:
Is more likely to be single while claiming to have a partner. (don't know what she's claimed her status to be now)
Often targets a mother whom she may find by visiting healthcare facilities and tries to meet the target family. (There's been reports that DB had MW's number written on her hand, maybe they had met.)
Often both plans the abduction and brings a weapon, although the weapon may not be used. (she could have done this but we won't know this until we have more info.)

And, it was her telephone that was called. LE does not say that they have moved on from MW.

katshep

11-03-2011, 10:23 PM

I don't think she knows or had anything to do with it. That is my opinion of course. As for why he would take the baby... Pedophiles are being arrested everyday. They include doctors, teachers, counselors, coaches, etc...
JMO

MW is one of the few people who hasn't been cleared in this investigation.

katydid23

11-03-2011, 10:25 PM

MW is one of the few people who hasn't been cleared in this investigation.

I wonder if there was any animosity between MW and DB? Did DB know the handyman?

seekjustice

11-03-2011, 10:26 PM

It feels like people are down on LE in this case, but I have seen them do nothing but be really, really vigorous. Even locals said they have been all over the neighborhood interviewing, various pictures, examining routes, collecting evidence, looking into sightings, etc.
That is why I TEND to think they know something we don't and that is why the case is currently drifting the way it is instead of Jersey being charged at this second for murdering or selling Baby Lisa.

Thank you!! I have the upmost respect for our LE here. I have watched them work this case tirelessly, thoroughly and with integrity. They hit the ground running from the minute Baby Lisa went missing. Bringing in FBI, National Guard, canines, bomb and arson and more. All the while keeping confidentiality and avoiding the chaotic circus surrounding the family, BS and their lawyers. They have kept a singular focus on Baby Lisa and I am beyond disheartened to hear anything negative said towards LE when you have a family who has essentially retreated and hibernated from a community who wants to bring baby Lisa home.

katshep

11-03-2011, 10:27 PM

Yes but we're not doing so on video in MSM, usually. It's different on a discussion forum, more casual, rambling about this and that, lots of people leading the conversation to a ton of topics. It just feels strange to me, to have MW on video on which the only topic is how bad she felt in her childhood. Nothing whatsoever about Lisa, just her.

I don't know, maybe it's the editing, she could have had more relevant things to say but the editor cut to the crying part.

Twice in that interview in which she self identifies as the victim of parental abduction, she says "if they find the baby..."

Rooster27

11-03-2011, 11:16 PM

I am lost between the threads, trying to find the discussion on the dumpster recently being confiscated by LE and the involvement of "jersey" and MW, his present incarceration and another neighbor that is speaking out about these folks and the connections between the houses and the way to get to the dumpster. Has this been posted already, If not, i will provide the link. Don't want to link something that has already been discussed. I don't know if it is another press story gone bad.

cluciano63

11-03-2011, 11:17 PM

I am lost between the threads, trying to find the discussion on the dumpster recently being confiscated by LE and the involvement of "jersey" and MW, his present incarceration and another neighbor that is speaking out about these folks and the connections between the houses and the way to get to the dumpster. Has this been posted already, If not, i will provide the link. Don't want to link something that has already been discussed. I don't know if it is another press story gone bad.

I don't believe it is verified that the dumpster was just recently collected...I recall hearing on TV that it had been taken and replaced right away. JMO

cowtowner

11-03-2011, 11:18 PM

And, it was her telephone that was called. LE does not say that they have moved on from MW.

EXACTLY! Thank you katshep.

So far, the only reason that MW doesn't fit more of the elements from the profile posted above is because we know so little about her.

It's not true to say she doesn't meet the other criteria, it is true to say she may meet more criteria, or she may not. We DO know she meets more than one.

vlpate

11-03-2011, 11:26 PM

I am lost between the threads, trying to find the discussion on the dumpster recently being confiscated by LE and the involvement of "jersey" and MW, his present incarceration and another neighbor that is speaking out about these folks and the connections between the houses and the way to get to the dumpster. Has this been posted already, If not, i will provide the link. Don't want to link something that has already been discussed. I don't know if it is another press story gone bad.

Please...I'd like to see something from MSM about the "involvement of "Jersey and MW". TIA

Wendy101

11-03-2011, 11:31 PM

Please...I'd like to see something from MSM about the "involvement of "Jersey and MW". TIA

MSM and LE are saying Jersey is not involved with Lisas vanishing.. I am not so sure about MW tho ...

katydid23

11-03-2011, 11:32 PM

Please...I'd like to see something from MSM about the "involvement of "Jersey and MW". TIA
IIRC, it has been posted here that MW has been interviewed or contacted by LE 7 times so far. That seems to me that she is of interest to them at the very least.

cowtowner

11-03-2011, 11:34 PM

The profile conveyed to me, via the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, tells me all you have is a demographic that fits 30% + of the population in KC.

She doesn't fit the profile of a baby snatcher, but you can still think she had something to do with it. The Dingo didn't fit any of this criteria either ;)

I'm sorry, it's simply not logical to note - in red - where MW matches multiple elements of the profile you posted of a baby snatcher and then say "she doesn't fit the profile of a baby snatcher."

I'm sorry that you posted a profile that says "Is usually female of “childbearing” age (range now 12 to 53) and often overweight." and then you later said that descriptor doesn't count.

I'm sorry you posted a profile that says "Usually lives in the community where the abduction takes place." and later said that descriptor doesn't count.

The fact remains this: WE DO KNOW that MW meets multiple elements of the profile of a baby abductor as noted directly in the profile you so helpfully posted. We DO NOT KNOW if she meets more or not, because, as I said in my post:

It could very well be that MW meets more of the criteria than we're currently aware of. Example, she may meet the elements of a home abductor, including:

Is more likely to be single while claiming to have a partner. (while we don't know what she's claimed her status to be now, we do know she's claimed Jersey to have been a "partner" - I believe she said boyfriend or dated or some version of Sig Other)
Often targets a mother whom she may find by visiting healthcare facilities and tries to meet the target family. (There's been reports that DB had MW's number written on her hand, maybe they had met.)
Often both plans the abduction and brings a weapon, although the weapon may not be used. (she could have done this but we won't know this until we have more info.)

We do not know whether MW meets still other criteria or not. MW may meet more of them or she may not; only time can tell.

vlpate

11-03-2011, 11:35 PM

Twice in that interview in which she self identifies as the victim of parental abduction, she says "if they find the baby..."

She identifies as the victim of parental abduction? Are you trying to fit her into two profiles? Is she the victim of abduction and took Lisa just cuz she's nuts.....because the profile for individuals who take babies didn't site "victim of parental kidnapping".

Desperate woman looking for a baby of her own
Victim of parental kidnapping out for ???
Psycho Clown Possee gang member gettin' thrills

No one is obligated to pick just one....but it helps with clarity.

Pensfan

11-03-2011, 11:50 PM

The profile conveyed to me, via the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, tells me all you have is a demographic that fits 30% + of the population in KC.

She doesn't fit the profile of a baby snatcher, but you can still think she had something to do with it. The Dingo didn't fit any of this criteria either ;)
Oh noooooooo. Should I start a thread about the neighbor's ferocious German Shepherd? It fits the profile of a dingo. ;)

vlpate

11-03-2011, 11:50 PM

I'm sorry, it's simply not logical to note - in red - where MW matches multiple elements of the profile you posted of a baby snatcher and then say "she doesn't fit the profile of a baby snatcher."

I'm sorry that you posted a profile that says "Is usually female of “childbearing” age (range now 12 to 53) and often overweight." and then you later said that descriptor doesn't count.

I'm sorry you posted a profile that says "Usually lives in the community where the abduction takes place." and later said that descriptor doesn't count.

The fact remains this: WE DO KNOW that MW meets multiple elements of the profile of a baby abductor as noted directly in the profile you so helpfully posted. We DO NOT KNOW if she meets more or not, because, as I said in my post:

It could very well be that MW meets more of the criteria than we're currently aware of. Example, she may meet the elements of a home abductor, including:

Is more likely to be single while claiming to have a partner. (while we don't know what she's claimed her status to be now, we do know she's claimed Jersey to have been a "partner" - I believe she said boyfriend or dated or some version of Sig Other)
Often targets a mother whom she may find by visiting healthcare facilities and tries to meet the target family. (There's been reports that DB had MW's number written on her hand, maybe they had met.)
Often both plans the abduction and brings a weapon, although the weapon may not be used. (she could have done this but we won't know this until we have more info.)

We do not know whether MW meets still other criteria or not. MW may meet more of them or she may not; only time can tell.

I see what you mean. I think JT may just be a serial killer. I'll tell you why....look at all the criteria for a serial killer that fits him.... I've bolded those I feel similar, the rest we just don't know about....yet.

Fourteen Characteristics of a Serial Killer

Below is a list of the 14 most common traits of serial killers.

1. Over 90 percent of serial killers are male.

2. They tend to be intelligent, with IQ's in the "bright normal" range.

3. They do poorly in school, have trouble holding down jobs, and often work as unskilled laborers.

4. They tend to come from markedly unstable families.

5. As children, they are abandoned by their fathers and raised by domineering mothers.

6. Their families often have criminal, psychiatric and alcoholic histories.

7. They hate their fathers and mothers.

8. They are commonly abused as children — psychologically, physically and sexually. Often the abuse is by a family member.

9. Many serial killers spend time in institutions as children and have records of early psychiatric problems.

10. They have high rates of suicide attempts.

11. From an early age, many are intensely interested in voyeurism, fetishism, and sado-masochistic pornography.

12. More than 60 percent of serial killers wet their beds beyond the age of 12.

13. Many serial killers are fascinated with fire starting.

14. They are involved with sadistic activity or tormenting small creatures.

Source: Internal Association of Forensic Science, an article written by FBI Special Agent Robert K. Ressler
"The Serial Killer," Harold Schechter

Pensfan

11-03-2011, 11:54 PM

I see what you mean. I think JT may just be a serial killer. I'll tell you why....look at all the criteria for a serial killer that fits him.... I've bolded those I feel similar, the rest we just don't know about....yet.

Fourteen Characteristics of a Serial Killer

Below is a list of the 14 most common traits of serial killers.

1. Over 90 percent of serial killers are male.

2. They tend to be intelligent, with IQ's in the "bright normal" range.

3. They do poorly in school, have trouble holding down jobs, and often work as unskilled laborers.

4. They tend to come from markedly unstable families.

5. As children, they are abandoned by their fathers and raised by domineering mothers.

6. Their families often have criminal, psychiatric and alcoholic histories.

7. They hate their fathers and mothers.

8. They are commonly abused as children — psychologically, physically and sexually. Often the abuse is by a family member.

9. Many serial killers spend time in institutions as children and have records of early psychiatric problems.

10. They have high rates of suicide attempts.

11. From an early age, many are intensely interested in voyeurism, fetishism, and sado-masochistic pornography.

12. More than 60 percent of serial killers wet their beds beyond the age of 12.

13. Many serial killers are fascinated with fire starting.

14. They are involved with sadistic activity or tormenting small creatures.

Source: Internal Association of Forensic Science, an article written by FBI Special Agent Robert K. Ressler
"The Serial Killer," Harold Schechter
He also had shaggy black hair and ate trash. He may just be a serial killer dingo.;)

vlpate

11-03-2011, 11:54 PM

IIRC, it has been posted here that MW has been interviewed or contacted by LE 7 times so far. That seems to me that she is of interest to them at the very least.

I heard four times and seven roommates using the phone. The way it was posted I got the impression you meant MW and JT together. No snark, just interested in the angle. I've been super busy and I've missed a lot of the interviews. Looking for the one of the neighbor who told LE about the footprints. I think Vinne Politan may have interviewed her.....

scmom

11-04-2011, 12:01 AM

I heard four times and seven roommates using the phone. The way it was posted I got the impression you meant MW and JT together. No snark, just interested in the angle. I've been super busy and I've missed a lot of the interviews. Looking for the one of the neighbor who told LE about the footprints. I think Vinne Politan may have interviewed her.....

That was Ms. Hurt. She saw LE taking the plaster casts.

vlpate

11-04-2011, 12:01 AM

He also had shaggy black hair and ate trash. He could also be a dingo.

Six degrees of separation :crazy:

I totally think there's an MW/JT angle - there's something there, but I don't think they did it. I don't know why they would. I can see a drug angle.... DB sitting outside, looking for some meth to keep her going....mystery 11:30 neighbor says, "I know a guy who has a hook-up, Tank, here's his girlfriend's number, she knows how to get in touch with him". She writes the number on her hand, stumbles in the house, grabs a phone and dials the number but there's no answer and she's not about to leave a message. Then she gets too drunk to dial it again and blows it off.

I just don't see a burglar wanting 3 gimp cell phones and a sick baby.

Turtles

11-04-2011, 12:20 AM

I wonder if there was any animosity between MW and DB? Did DB know the handyman?

Did the handyman live across the street from JI and DB at some point?