PDA

View Full Version : GUILTY Conrad Murray Trial - Verdict Watch


Pages : [1] 2 3 4

Talina
11-04-2011, 06:41 AM
Per reports late yesterday, the jury was instructed by the deputy to report back today at 8:30am to begin deliberations.

Talina
11-04-2011, 08:15 AM
I won't be surprised if there is a verdict by end of today. I will be surprised if there is no verdict by mid week next week.

I think the prosecution proved their cased beyond a reasonable doubt. I don't think the defense created any reasonable doubt during the trial or in their closing argument but then again, they had little to work with.

I am, however, still in shock over the CA verdict so I have no idea what to expect this jury to do. The big difference in this trial versus the CA trial is that there is no "Sunshine Law" in California so us bystanders know very little about the evidence beyond what was introduced in court. The only advantage we have is having been able to discuss it amongst ourselves and others during the trial. That is what the jury gets to start doing this morning.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
11-04-2011, 11:44 AM
abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
Another #MichaelJackson fan. #ConradMurraytrial

http://yfrog.com/nv78uwhj

Velouria
11-04-2011, 11:54 AM
Morning all. :seeya: Talina, I hope you're right about a verdict today. Guess we'll have a better idea once Jean can get a look at how the jurors are dressed today. :D

I see this Steve Manning guy is all over IS again this morning. Wish he'd either name this cast of conspirators he claims were out to get MJ or would stop bringing it up. :rolleyes:

And how nice to watch the coverage this morning with Beth instead of JVM! Four gallons of Propofol couldn't get me through watching that woman scowl and shriek this early in the day.

Settling in for a long wait today...:popcorn:

bravowhisky
11-04-2011, 12:06 PM
How does this work when the jury makes a decision? Does the court give warning that the verdict will be read, or will we just hear about it after the fact?

Velouria
11-04-2011, 12:10 PM
How does this work when the jury makes a decision? Does the court give warning that the verdict will be read, or will we just hear about it after the fact?


The jury alerts the bailiff, who in turn notifies the judge. Then there will be an announcement that a verdict has been reached and will be read at such a time to allow the attorneys, families, and media to assemble in the courtroom, usually an hour or so later.

outofstatelawyer
11-04-2011, 12:10 PM
How does this work when the jury makes a decision? Does the court give warning that the verdict will be read, or will we just hear about it after the fact?

In many jurisdictions, the jury has a bell or buzzer system in the jury room. A certain signal means they have a question, and another signal means they have a verdict. I cannot remember if they have this in LA, but the jury, if and when they have a verdict (and I believe they will), will get word to the judge somehow. The court will then announce there is a verdict, and it will be read two hours later, allowing the lawyers, Murray, and the family to get to the courthouse for the reading.

If the jury has a question or wants a readback of testimony, they will send a note to the judge, and you can also bet the media will be all over that, and every talking head in the Universe will try to read the tea leaves (a dangerous past time).

outofstatelawyer
11-04-2011, 12:14 PM
Morning all. :seeya: Talina, I hope you're right about a verdict today. Guess we'll have a better idea once Jean can get a look at how the jurors are dressed today. :D

I see this Steve Manning guy is all over IS again this morning. Wish he'd either name this cast of conspirators he claims were out to get MJ or would stop bringing it up. :rolleyes:

And how nice to watch the coverage this morning with Beth instead of JVM! Four gallons of Propofol couldn't get me through watching that woman scowl and shriek this early in the day.

Settling in for a long wait today...:popcorn:

I have no idea who that guy is, but as I understand it, there are nutters out there (maybe including Jermaine and LaToya :crazy: ) who believe that AEG had Murray kill MJ for insurance money, under the theory that MJ would never be able to complete the tour. Like most Conspiracy Theories, it is the resting place for lunatics and those with weak minds. IMHO.

RainyGirl
11-04-2011, 12:26 PM
Please forgive this post that I've carried over from Closing Arguments thread (I think I should have posted here)!
I'm feeling anxious about this verdict! As we all know, there's NO such thing as a "slam dunk", despite how impressed I was by Mr. Walgren. Such a sad, sad case to begin with!!! Walgren (IMO) really nailed that closing argument, but did he connect with the jurors?? Argh.....I don't know. I'm not making any sense here....but I've followed the trial carefully. I'm still so burned by the Anthony verdict. It knocked me WAY off balance......despite being a very different kind of case and defendant!

I'm just praying for the best possible solution/verdict here.......it seems like both Murray and MJ had very complicated and troubled lives (and secrets, of course). I want to cry whenever I see shots of Katherine Jackson or MJ's kids!!

PS: Not to be flip (because this is all very serious business) but what is up with JVM's extra huge and mega-fuzzy microphone??? Just a strange, light moment there on HLN!!

Peace XOXO

peace9274
11-04-2011, 12:39 PM
Carried over from previous thread:

I know this is O/T but I think their opinion changed once the FBI report came out after investigating MJ for decades and the FBI found absolutely nothing criminal in his history of any kind.

I admire people who can open up their minds and look at the facts when they are presented and form a different opinion based on them.

I think a lot of them must feel terrible guilt about the media myths they spun for years. So many millions made by claiming he didn't have a serious skin disorder when he certainly did just like he told everyone way back in 1993. A lot blew up in the media's face when the MJ autopsy report came out.

Just like I saw JVM do an interview with Ed Smart the other day and she apologized to him because at the time when Elizabeth was missing Jane was sure her father had done something to her and was accusing him falsely. She was wrong and even though I cant tolerate Jane for more than 10 minutes I did admire her when she had enough guts to apologize to Ed Smart and of course he graciously accepted her apology.

IMO

Very well stated!!! As ususal!
I sooo agree with everything you said, oceanblueeyes...

Many years ago, I too believed most of what the media said about MJ.
I saw the photos of him being "unconventional" & behaving differently from "the norm".
I saw the results of his cosmetic surgeries. I watched the Oprah and Barbara Walters interviews.

And I too was one of the many who believed the molestation accusations.

And, for awhile, based solely on what I read, heard or saw, I thought MJ was just plain weird.
Whacko, as some of the press called him.

However, thanks to my young (at the time) son, I did begin opening my eyes & brain & forming
my own opinions of Michael Jackson... even before the trials and before the FBI investigation.

I began to see MJ in a totally different light. I read more extensively about him and ignored the tabloids.
I wanted to know the reasons he did some of the things he did in public, but I mainly wanted to see & learn
how this man/boy became such a brilliant and talented superstar.

I became aware of other parts of MJ's life, too. The part the general public didn't always see... or bother to take the time to know.

I began reading as much as I could about his dancing, his music, his writing (of music, poetry, books, films).
I observated his artwork. I focused on his talent as a director, a producer, a choreographer, an actor.

I watched his videos over and over and over (they were on TV constantly, thanks to my son).
I really formed an interest in how talented he actually was. How creative & brilliant he really really was.
I saw that he was more than a super-star, more than a huge celebrity. He was awesome! He was bigger than life.
He was one of a kind. He was a genius.

Odd at times, but totally & undeniably... a genius!
What well known genius hasn't been called weird, odd, strange or whacky?

Anyway... I also learned how wonderfully generous he was to all the charities in which he was involved.
How compassionate he was with the things he believed in. How he planned so many "fund raisers" and was
able to get so many of his peers involved... actors, directors, singers, dancers, entertainers.

I saw how unbiased he was, how he loved all people from all walks of life.... especially the poor & suffering.
And how kind he was to all his fans... including my son (I told that story several threads ago).

He wanted so much for the health & well being of the world... and for all the people in it.
He didn't build Neverland to be a fantasy playland just for himself and his family.
He invited thousands of other people to share it & enjoy it, also. He hosted hundreds of parties for children with cancer.

He gave so much of his money & time to Los Angeles Children's Hospital
(where my first job as a nurse was) and to the patients that were there.

Despite that Michael Jackson was so much more than a genius, a philanthropist, and a loving father...
those attributes did not sell like the "whacko" things he did.

I wanted to be, and did become, one of those people that oceanblueeyes wrote about above & bolded by me:

"I admire people who can open up their minds and look at the facts when they are presented and form a different opinion based on them."

I am ashamed, guilty, and extremely sorry that I once saw Michael Jackson through a closed mind & closed eyes.

I sincerely apologize to Michael, his mother, his siblings, his children, friends...
and to the other fans who really knew the true Michael from the very beginning... and throughout his lifetime.

Hopefully, Michael's death was not in vain. Hopefully, his death, the trial, and the media's coverage of it,
including the full coverage of Michael's life... have shown the millions of people, with their closed eyes & minds,
to see Michael as the truly remarkable person he was.

And one last comment... I am so happy that his beautiful children, and the videos of them since birth,
have since appeared... for the world to see that Michael Jackson was a wonderful, loving, caring father.

I tend to think that Michael considered his children - Prince, Paris and Blanket -
his greatest accomplishment, his most precious "possession", that which he was most proud....
and what made him the person he most wanted to be.


Rest in Peace, Michael Jackson.

You will live on forever in the hearts, eyes, ears and minds of millions!!!

Credence
11-04-2011, 01:16 PM
Copy of Jury Instructions:

http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/jury-instructions.pdf

outofstatelawyer
11-04-2011, 01:23 PM
So, I was flipping channels last night, and saw Randy Kaye's piece on this trial. One thing she said, that I had not heard before, was that "a couple of weeks ago" "some" jurors were overheard "whispering" "let's get this thing over with already". Now, I kind of found that disturbing. Who knows what it means? It requires more tea leaf reading, and I don't go there. It certainly does tell us, however, that at least some of the jurors were ready to get outta there, and perhaps still are.

I suspect that by now, they've elected a foreperson and have just waded through the jury instructions.

Credence
11-04-2011, 01:25 PM
Dang it -- the jury buzzed -- but it was for a break. They hit the wrong code and buzzed 3x. LOL

Buzz 1x - when they are ready to deliberate
Buzz 2x - when they have a question or a break
Buzz 3x - for verdict

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 01:26 PM
Jury has a question, could be as simple as "we want to take a break" .

Isabelle
11-04-2011, 01:32 PM
Jury has a question, could be as simple as "we want to take a break" .

And it was a request for a break. Maybe they will come back and be ready to deliver their decision and just wanted to get the break out of the way. That would be sweet.

outofstatelawyer
11-04-2011, 01:35 PM
Dang it -- the jury buzzed -- but it was for a break. They hit the wrong code and buzzed 3x. LOL

Buzz 1x - when they are ready to deliberate
Buzz 2x - when they have a question or a break
Buzz 3x - for verdict

Wow, I hope they follow the rest of the Court's instructions better than this. :rollercoaster:

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 01:36 PM
And it was a request for a break. Maybe they will come back and be ready to deliver their decision and just wanted to get the break out of the way. That would be sweet.

Oh that would be wonderful. :) (only if he is found guilty tho :crazy:)

Velouria
11-04-2011, 01:43 PM
I have no idea who that guy is, but as I understand it, there are nutters out there (maybe including Jermaine and LaToya :crazy: ) who believe that AEG had Murray kill MJ for insurance money, under the theory that MJ would never be able to complete the tour. Like most Conspiracy Theories, it is the resting place for lunatics and those with weak minds. IMHO.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1273&pictureid=13011

I hear you, OOSL (hope you don't mind my acronym!) And let's not forget about the shadowy figures behind the Grassy Knoll that planned to murder MJ for his music catalog. :noooo:

I do believe it's LaToya who is the main proponent of the murder conspiracy theory. Of course, she also claims to have talked to MJ's ghost on occasion and has also chatted with his pet macaw.

“When I go to his house I say, ‘Hello, Michael. How are you? If you’re here, please let me know’. And the lights start blinking,” LaToya told The Mirror. “I can feel him.

I can smell his cologne and I’ve felt him brush past me.” Adding of her ‘talks to the animals’ talents, “Michael had a macaw and he was saying, ‘Everything’s okay, Michael. Everyone’s fine, don’t worry. The kids? How are the kids doing?’”
http://www.masala.com/16133?tmpl=print&print=1&imgN=

Velouria
11-04-2011, 01:47 PM
Wow, I hope they follow the rest of the Court's instructions better than this. :rollercoaster:

I'm just crossing my fingers that the foreman is not a P.E. instructor.

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 01:50 PM
Vinnie says the jury asked for some unspecified evidense to look at.

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 01:50 PM
Mike G. says it was printed items and highlighter pens.

outofstatelawyer
11-04-2011, 01:59 PM
Mike G. says it was printed items and highlighter pens.

Well ain't that interestin'?

I thought it was going to be the slit saline bag. So, I was wondering, what earthly reason would there have been to have a slit saline bag hanging on that pole, unless one was going to put something in it? Taking something out makes no sense, because it was at one time full of ....saline!

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 02:04 PM
Well ain't that interestin'?

I thought it was going to be the slit saline bag. So, I was wondering, what earthly reason would there have been to have a slit saline bag hanging on that pole, unless one was going to put something in it? Taking something out makes no sense, because it was at one time full of ....saline!

Must have made sense to CM :waitasec::crazy::waitasec: LOL

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 02:05 PM
I do have to say I am glad to hear they are looking over the evidence and not in a rush to get home unlike the P12 in Fla.

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 02:08 PM
Dang it, now Mike G. saying no evidence was requested because it is already in the jury room with them. Reporter saying the only evidence that isn't is medically sensitive, drugs, etc.

outofstatelawyer
11-04-2011, 02:08 PM
Another random thought. Chernoff accused just about everyone of perjury, and added a few criminal allegations against Walgren, but the only people he didn't blame were...the police! Now, I understand he did that because the one detective said he didn't see the bottle in the slit bag, but how very weird that in a criminal case, where the defense always says the state didn't meet it's burden of proof, he left the entire LAPD off the hook. Johnnie Cochran must be rolling in his grave!

outofstatelawyer
11-04-2011, 02:20 PM
Ok, I have to go run some errands, so it should guarantee a verdict while I'm out :)

Velouria
11-04-2011, 02:24 PM
Another random thought. Chernoff accused just about everyone of perjury, and added a few criminal allegations against Walgren, but the only people he didn't blame were...the police! Now, I understand he did that because the one detective said he didn't see the bottle in the slit bag, but how very weird that in a criminal case, where the defense always says the state didn't meet it's burden of proof, he left the entire LAPD off the hook. Johnnie Cochran must be rolling in his grave!

"If the bag isn't slit, you must acquit!"

peace9274
11-04-2011, 02:25 PM
Ok, I have to go run some errands, so it should guarantee a verdict while I'm out :)


I ran to the botroom to relieve myself of... well you know...
and was sure there'd be a verdict in the 2 minutes I was gone. :)

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 02:41 PM
JVM showing the protesters yelling at each other. One dude showed up in a Nixon mask. what decade/century does he think this is???? Goofy.

BetteDavisEyes
11-04-2011, 02:55 PM
While I haven't been posting regularly on this board, I listened/watched some of the trial, watched HLN updates, and read WS for day-to-day posts on the proceedings. I got side-tracked by the Lisa Irwin disappearance but didn't give up entirely on the Conrad Murray trial.

I can't offer an opinion on what the verdict might be but hope that the jurors were able to remain alert and attentive through the sometimes very clinical, technical testimony that would have been a major challenge for me :blushing:

I expect a verdict by the end of the day. jmo

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 03:08 PM
Jury is now at lunch until 1:30 pm.

Oldsoul2
11-04-2011, 03:15 PM
So on the fence about this. On one hand, it's pretty clear that MJ had many doctors, not just CM prescribe drugs he shouldn't have been using and he was clearly a drug addict. He also used his power of being a megastar with loads of money to get what he wanted. On the other hand, CM was on MJ's payroll and as a physician who is supposed to be practising moral ethics and aiding people in promoting health and saving lives, he is without question morally corrupt. I don't know if you can blame all the physicians that enabled MJ or we just fell upon one to take the fall for all parties including MJ and his life style.

EPfan
11-04-2011, 03:16 PM
Does anyone know the ages or the jurors?

My daughter is in her late 20's and was a MJ big fan, but she said some troubling things to me last night. I was wondering if there were some young jurors.

Thanks.

oceanblueeyes
11-04-2011, 03:19 PM
"If the bag isn't slit, you must acquit!"

"If the bag is slit you CANNOT acquit." :)

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 03:22 PM
Does anyone know the ages or the jurors?

My daughter is in her late 20's and was a MJ big fan, but she said some troubling things to me last night. I was wondering if there were some young jurors.

Thanks.

I don't know much of anything about the jurors. I am not even sure if any info has been released. I didn't follow the pretrial hearings or voir dere (sp?).
Maybe some here did though.

oceanblueeyes
11-04-2011, 03:23 PM
Does anyone know the ages or the jurors?

My daughter is in her late 20's and was a MJ big fan, but she said some troubling things to me last night. I was wondering if there were some young jurors.

Thanks.

I think they are in their late 30s... 40s and mid 50s.

Michael has one of the biggest fan bases in the world. From the very young child all the way to people in their 80s.

My teenage grandchildren love his music and want justice for Michael.

IMO

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 03:24 PM
This is a silly question, can they still talk/deliberate during lunch? Because if it were me I would be busting at the seams after all these weeks. :)

Lexiintoronto
11-04-2011, 03:26 PM
Jury is now at lunch until 1:30 pm.

They're joining the Casey Anthony jury who are also still out to lunch.

ges79
11-04-2011, 03:29 PM
Does anyone know the ages or the jurors?

My daughter is in her late 20's and was a MJ big fan, but she said some troubling things to me last night. I was wondering if there were some young jurors.

Thanks.

I found this yesterday. It gives ages, ethnic and general background info of the jurors: http://www.hlntv.com/article/2011/10/29/get-know-jurors-deciding-dr-murrays-fate .

tweezybird
11-04-2011, 03:31 PM
Hi all, so glad to finally gotten this forum to load. After winding my way through other areas of Webslueths I got back here. And the Jonbennet forum. I did miss all of your comments and opinions in real time as the trial progressed. If a mod reads this are you able to look at my history and see why I could't get on here?
My DH asked me last night how I thought the verdict would go and since the CA verdict, who knows. To me the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of conviction. Simply because he abandoned the patient. Whether MJ did himself in or not. The drugs shouldn't have been within reach, especially when you know he is an addict.

Velouria
11-04-2011, 03:32 PM
They're joining the Casey Anthony jury who are also still out to lunch.

:floorlaugh: and :furious:, because it's so very true!

oceanblueeyes
11-04-2011, 03:32 PM
Here is another link about the jurors.

http://www.ontheredcarpet.com/photos/Conrad-Murray-trial:-Meet-the-jurors/8416906

peace9274
11-04-2011, 03:34 PM
I don't know much of anything about the jurors. I am not even sure if any info has been released. I didn't follow the pretrial hearings or voir dere (sp?).
Maybe some here did though.

I've caught a few snips & clips, here & there, during the trial, of the THs mentioning something they know about a juror.

What I remember at the moment is:

One of them is/was a biology/chemistry major in college.

One of them has a brother that's an EMT.

ETA: I'm curious, but not sure I want to know what the "troubling things" were that EPfan's daughter told her last night. :waitasec:

EPfan
11-04-2011, 03:41 PM
So on the fence about this. On one hand, it's pretty clear that MJ had many doctors, not just CM prescribe drugs he shouldn't have been using and he was clearly a drug addict. He also used his power of being a megastar with loads of money to get what he wanted. On the other hand, CM was on MJ's payroll and as a physician who is supposed to be practising moral ethics and aiding people in promoting health and saving lives, he is without question morally corrupt. I don't know if you can blame all the physicians that enabled MJ or we just fell upon one to take the fall for all parties including MJ and his life style.

I am fighting the same concern(s) that you just said. This isn't just about cut and dry guilty or not guilty, for me. I have watched too many talking heads and that leads you to guilty, but as a human being and using my common sense this case is very complicated. I just can't say that other Dr.'s haven't done the same. He was clearly a drug addict but I'm not sure that was proven in the testimony. Many people don't believe that he is a addict but I think he has been since his molestation trial. I also think that is probably when he wanted to use propofal to not have to think about things because he couldn't sleep. That is just my own opinion. I also am probably one of the few but I have a problem with not knowing if CM put evidence in his pants pockets because that is only speculation and that piece of evidence wasn't among the evidence that was needed.
The procecution also stated that we will never know what happened. (In the closing arguments) That statement also bothered me because it proved that they didn't know and that could cause reasonable doubt.
I truly believe that if this wasn't Michael J, just a regular Joe this trial wouldn't be happening. JMOO

MsFacetious
11-04-2011, 03:43 PM
I think they are in their late 30s... 40s and mid 50s.

Michael has one of the biggest fan bases in the world. From the very young child all the way to people in their 80s.

My teenage grandchildren love his music and want justice for Michael.

IMO

There are a few in the mid 30's and a couple alternates under 30. But mostly, they are older.

My 7 and 8 year old daughters ADORE Michael's music.
They are also unaware of MJ's current... condition. :waitasec: (Which is why Websleuths is where I'm watching for the verdict.)

I didn't really feel like talking to them about his death BEFORE the verdict.
I wanted to give them a conclusion to the situation when they found out if at all possible.

I wanted to answer "What happened to that doctor" when I told them.
Hopefully I won't also be explaining to them that the justice system doesn't always work. :banghead:


Meet the Jurors:

1. 51 male

2. 57 female

3. 45 male

4. 32 male

5. 48 female

6. 39 male

7. 54 female

8. 42 male

9. 54 male

10. 43 female

11. 36 female

12. 54 male


13. 29 female

14. 57 female

15. 53 female

16. 27 female

17. 40 male

18. 39 male

http://www.ontheredcarpet.com/photos/Conrad-Murray-trial:-Meet-the-jurors/8416906

EPfan
11-04-2011, 03:48 PM
I found this yesterday. It gives ages, ethnic and general background info of the jurors: http://www.hlntv.com/article/2011/10/29/get-know-jurors-deciding-dr-murrays-fate .

Thank You.
From reading this I think they will find CM Guilty. JMOO

oceanblueeyes
11-04-2011, 03:56 PM
I am fighting the same concern(s) that you just said. This isn't just about cut and dry guilty or not guilty, for me. I have watched too many talking heads and that leads you to guilty, but as a human being and using my common sense this case is very complicated. I just can't say that other Dr.'s haven't done the same. He was clearly a drug addict but I'm not sure that was proven in the testimony. Many people don't believe that he is a addict but I think he has been since his molestation trial. I also think that is probably when he wanted to use propofal to not have to think about things because he couldn't sleep. That is just my own opinion. I also am probably one of the few but I have a problem with not knowing if CM put evidence in his pants pockets because that is only speculation and that piece of evidence wasn't among the evidence that was needed.
The prosecution also stated that we will never know what happened. (In the closing arguments) That statement also bothered me because it proved that they didn't know and that could cause reasonable doubt.
I truly believe that if this wasn't Michael J, just a regular Joe this trial wouldn't be happening. JMOO

If anyone watches the T/Hs for their information then they can be led to believe anything.

That is why I much prefer watching the case gavel to gavel on line where I miss none of the actual trial testimony.

I don't think I have ever seen a case where I felt it was a slam dunk case although I certainly have seen a lot of them where I think the state proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt and the jury agreed.

That is simply not the truth. There is a link either on this thread or the previous one where a doctor was convicted of involuntary manslaughter by administering a drug in a home clinic and the patient died. The victim was a dishwasher, iirc.

I will find the article again.

So this is NOT about it being Michael Jackson. This is all about trying to obtain justice for a victim who lost his life by the hands of another.

Oh I found the article.

February 26, 2011|By Hector Becerra, Los Angeles Times
Nearly three years after a 30-year-old man died on the operating table at an Inglewood home turned into a neighborhood clinic, a Los Angeles County Superior Court jury Friday convicted the surgeon of involuntary manslaughter.

Dr. Roberto Bonilla, 64, was found guilty in a Torrance courthouse in the death of Osvaldo Hernandez, a restaurant dishwasher and illegal immigrant from Mexico who had paid the surgeon several thousand dollars in cash to relieve a sharp pain in his belly.http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/26/local/la-me-0226-home-surgery-20110226

JUSTICE FOR ALL!


IMO

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 03:57 PM
Alan Duke saying KJ was asked to come down to the court house. She is on "stand-by"/
Who knows what is going on? Reporters don't seem to.

EPfan
11-04-2011, 03:57 PM
I've caught a few snips & clips, here & there, during the trial, of the THs mentioning something they know about a juror.

What I remember at the moment is:

One of them is/was a biology/chemistry major in college.

One of them has a brother that's an EMT.

ETA: I'm curious, but not sure I want to know what the "troubling things" were that EPfan's daughter told her last night. :waitasec:

I won't say anthing and it would't have anything to do with this trial.(unless it would have been brought into evidence.) The only thing I will say is most people that have worked for MJ know stuff but sign a contract that they won't disclose things.
My daughter knows someone that know things not rumor.
I was really overwhelmed but I'm glad she hadn't told me earlier.

Velouria
11-04-2011, 03:59 PM
Wow! Katherine Jackson just called to the court on "stand-by". Something's a brewin'. Never fails - I have to leave in 15 minutes so I'll miss the jury's return from lunch.

kimpage
11-04-2011, 04:00 PM
On HLN they just reported Katherine Jackson is at courthouse.......Hopefully verdict soon and it is GUILTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But after the CA trial in orlando i dunno....

Velouria
11-04-2011, 04:02 PM
I won't say anthing and it would't have anything to do with this trial.(unless it would have been brought into evidence.) The only thing I will say is most people that have worked for MJ know stuff but sign a contract that they won't disclose things.
My daughter knows someone that know things not rumor.
I was really overwhelmed but I'm glad she hadn't told me earlier.


EP, any chance these things are related to MJ's 2005 trial?

CarolinaMoon
11-04-2011, 04:02 PM
People who have tickets for seats in the courtroom have also been notified to come.(HLN)

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 04:04 PM
People who have tickets for seats in the courtroom have also been notified to come.(HLN)

:eek:

MsFacetious
11-04-2011, 04:04 PM
So this must be the 2 hour notice then?

Fabulous... since I need to leave in an hour.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2011/11/04/get-ready-deliberations-kick-friday?hpt=hp_t2

HLN has learned that Michael Jackson's mother, Katherine, is heading back to an area near the courthouse.

EPfan
11-04-2011, 04:05 PM
If anyone watches the T/Hs for their information then they can be led to believe anything.

That is why I much prefer watching the case gavel to gavel on line where I miss none of the actual trial testimony.

I don't think I have ever seen a case where I felt it was a slam dunk case although I certainly have seen a lot of them where I think the state proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt and the jury agreed.

That is simply not the truth. There is a link either on this thread or the previous one where a doctor was convicted of involuntary manslaughter by administering a drug in a home clinic and the patient died. The victim was a dishwasher, iirc.

I will find the article again.

So this is NOT about it being Michael Jackson. This is all about trying to obtain justice for a victim who lost their lives by the hands of another.

Oh I found the article.

February 26, 2011|By Hector Becerra, Los Angeles Times
Nearly three years after a 30-year-old man died on the operating table at an Inglewood home turned into a neighborhood clinic, a Los Angeles County Superior Court jury Friday convicted the surgeon of involuntary manslaughter.

Dr. Roberto Bonilla, 64, was found guilty in a Torrance courthouse in the death of Osvaldo Hernandez, a restaurant dishwasher and illegal immigrant from Mexico who had paid the surgeon several thousand dollars in cash to relieve a sharp pain in his belly.http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/26/local/la-me-0226-home-surgery-20110226

JUSTICE FOR ALL!


IMO

Thanks
I don't know why but I think this case is so different because I believe (know) that this case isn't as simple as it was made out to be.
Even though I think CM was wrong, I think there were many others and I guess that still doens't excuse CM.

EPfan
11-04-2011, 04:06 PM
So this must be the 2 hour notice then?

Fabulous... since I need to leave in an hour.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2011/11/04/get-ready-deliberations-kick-friday?hpt=hp_t2

HLN has learned that Michael Jackson's mother, Katherine, is heading back to an area near the courthouse.

And I will be on the road probably!!! RATS!!!

BetteDavisEyes
11-04-2011, 04:07 PM
Jury goes to lunch because they want one more freebie meal on the Court :D I anticipate that a verdict will be rendered before the end of the day. jmo

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 04:08 PM
Now saying its not true.

This is nerve racking.

EPfan
11-04-2011, 04:09 PM
EP, any chance these things are related to MJ's 2005 trial?

Yes, and drugs.

CarolinaMoon
11-04-2011, 04:10 PM
According to HLN, it's a confusing situation. Someone called into the court and was told that they didn't summon her down there. Who knows? Now, the jury has finished their lunch and is deliberating again. :rollercoaster:

peace9274
11-04-2011, 04:13 PM
I am fighting the same concern(s) that you just said. This isn't just about cut and dry guilty or not guilty, for me. I have watched too many talking heads and that leads you to guilty, but as a human being and using my common sense this case is very complicated. I just can't say that other Dr.'s haven't done the same. He was clearly a drug addict but I'm not sure that was proven in the testimony. Many people don't believe that he is a addict but I think he has been since his molestation trial.[/B][/B] I also think that is probably when he wanted to use propofal to not have to think about things because he couldn't sleep. That is just my own opinion. I also am probably one of the few but I have a problem with not knowing if CM put evidence in his pants pockets because that is only speculation and that piece of evidence wasn't among the evidence that was needed.
The procecution also stated that we will never know what happened. (In the closing arguments) That statement also bothered me because it proved that they didn't know and that could cause reasonable doubt.
I truly believe that if this wasn't Michael J, just a regular Joe this trial wouldn't be happening. JMOO

BBM

I can definitely see why there are people who believe MJ is an addict.
He admitted to being addicted to demerol and to going to a rehab & treatment in England and in CA.... yrs ago.

However, I am one of the ones who believes he was "in recovery" and not actively abusing drugs.

As a nurse who worked many years on detox & rehab units, I know what long time active addicts have in their
blood, their urine, their system, what their vital organs are like on autopsy, but mainly how functional they are.

Based on what I know and what all I've heard and seen about Michael Jackson in the yrs, months, weeks, days prior to his death...
IMO, MJ was not actively abusing drugs.

People in recovery are ALWAYS told, when they need to take meds, especially mind altering drugs/narcotics/meds...
to make sure it's someone they trust, someone that knows what they're doing, and to hold onto, administer & supervise the meds for them.

Michael did do that when he felt he needed demerol for a procedure, when he needed something for sleep,
and probably other times he needed to take medication.

MJ's autopsy report stated that he was in better health than most 50 yr old men.
It said his vital organs appeared to be in very good condition.... including his cardio vascular system.

The only time MJ was feeling "dope sick" was a week or days prior to his death.
The only time the CEO's of production observed MJ to be acting strange, was during the same time he wasn't feeling well.

During that time, MJ was under the care of a doctor, who was someone MJ trusted, someone
who should've known what he was doing, someone who was constantly observing MJ.

MJ was NOT (IMO) responsible for making sure CM had all the right equipment, that the 02 tanks were filled, that the meds were locked up...
MJ had too many other things for which to be responsible. He hired and was going to pay good money to have someone he trusted to oversee
and supervise and make sure that it all ran smoothly.

OK that's it... something's going on, I think... on HLN.... and they're showing the great seal!! Gotta see what it is. :)

ETA: OK, seems like it was nothing REAL important at the moment.

So I just want to add, that the trial is NOT about MJ.

It's about Dr Conrad Murray, his gross negligence, his failure to supervise and properly care for MJ as he should have, as other doctors would have.

And all the other things he did and did not do to save MJ's life.

BetteDavisEyes
11-04-2011, 04:15 PM
Vinnie Politan reiterates that Katherine Jackson is on her way to downtown Los Angeles "holding area".

oceanblueeyes
11-04-2011, 04:20 PM
Thanks
I don't know why but I think this case is so different because I believe (know) that this case isn't as simple as it was made out to be.
Even though I think CM was wrong, I think there were many others and I guess that still doesn't excuse CM.

You are welcome.

However the case I listed IS similar.

He used his home as a clinic and he killed the man by using the improper drug and it caused the man's death.

The last I read over 200 doctors in California have been criminally charged for wrongdoing.

Conrad Murray is just one of many even though he has carved his niche of being the most inept, reckless and negligent to date.

IMO

yeknomaras
11-04-2011, 04:21 PM
jury clock is ticking once again.

tweezybird
11-04-2011, 04:24 PM
This is totally off topic, but Yek, I can't help but laugh every time I see that OJ/CA pic,

MsFacetious
11-04-2011, 04:30 PM
It is possible Katherine is just going down there to ensure she is there and doesn't get caught in traffic... with bad weather too.

I just figure since there is only 3 hours left in the day... that there is a good chance this is the two hour notice...

Could be wrong.

Anywhere going to show it live online?

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2011/11/04/get-ready-deliberations-kick-friday?hpt=hp_t2

HLN's Alan Duke reports that Michael Jackson's mother, Katherine, is heading back to an area near the courthouse.

A spokesperson for the court says Jackson was not asked to come downtown.

MsF says: They also said on HLN that the a "source close to" the defense said the defense had not been told to go down either.

dr dona
11-04-2011, 04:33 PM
haven't commented on this trial but here goes----No doctor has ever given Propofol in a home setting. I'm a Pediatrician and have to say their are big time controls on any meds used for sedation. We use to given chloral hydrate to children before CT's and other procedures. At my rural Iowa hospital I can't even order this. It has to be administered by anesthesia - ie MD or nurse anesthesist ---and the children are monitored on cardio-apnea monitors and an Ambu bag is bedside. Same thing goes with Versed for conscious sedation. Propofol is administered in the OR and the patients are intubated and monitored by an anestheiologist. CM's actions are unconscionable. As Physicians we take the Hippocratic oath and must always follow the oath FIRST DO NO HARM!!! Thats all I'm going to say!!!!!! It embarrasses me that he is a doctor!!!!!

oceanblueeyes
11-04-2011, 04:37 PM
Yes, and drugs.

I know the trial that happened way back 6 years ago is off topic but I will say this.

We all could see that MJ was taking sedatives during the trial. Like Tom Mes. said 'who wouldnt?..... it was the most devastating time of his life that he was having to endure.' I don't even take meds but I sure would if I had been accused falsely of something this horrific. I would have to take them in order to get through it all.

People have to be treated if they truly need medication whether it is for pain or anxiety. We learned that in the trial about Anna Nicole Smith trial.

In fact iirc in 2006 a law was passed in California that a doctor cant refuse to treat anyone who they believe has legitimate pain or emotional issues.

IMO

peace9274
11-04-2011, 04:39 PM
haven't commented on this trial but here goes----No doctor has ever given Propofol in a home setting. I'm a Pediatrician and have to say their are big time controls on any meds used for sedation. We use to given chloral hydrate to children before CT's and other procedures. At my rural Iowa hospital I can't even order this. It has to be administered by anesthesia - ie MD or nurse anesthesist ---and the children are monitored on cardio-apnea monitors and an Ambu bag is bedside. Same thing goes with Versed for conscious sedation. Propofol is administered in the OR and the patients are intubated and monitored by an anestheiologist. CM's actions are unconscionable. As Physicians we take the Hippocratic oath and must always follow the oath FIRST DO NO HARM!!! Thats all I'm going to say!!!!!! It embarrasses me that he is a doctor!!!!!

BBM

:welcome5:

Your medical opinion, medical expertise and medical facts are all very much appreciated!

Thanx and welcome! :)

P.S. I said the same thing that you said (bolded by me)....
'cept I said: "As a nurse, I'm embarrassed that he's a medical professional."

BetteDavisEyes
11-04-2011, 04:41 PM
HLN's Jane Velez-Mitchell suggesting that Jackson family members might simply be headed for downtown L.A. hotels so that they are close to the Courthouse when a verdict is reached.

Oldsoul2
11-04-2011, 04:46 PM
haven't commented on this trial but here goes----No doctor has ever given Propofol in a home setting. I'm a Pediatrician and have to say their are big time controls on any meds used for sedation. We use to given chloral hydrate to children before CT's and other procedures. At my rural Iowa hospital I can't even order this. It has to be administered by anesthesia - ie MD or nurse anesthesist ---and the children are monitored on cardio-apnea monitors and an Ambu bag is bedside. Same thing goes with Versed for conscious sedation. Propofol is administered in the OR and the patients are intubated and monitored by an anestheiologist. CM's actions are unconscionable. As Physicians we take the Hippocratic oath and must always follow the oath FIRST DO NO HARM!!! Thats all I'm going to say!!!!!! It embarrasses me that he is a doctor!!!!!

I completely agree, he should never be allowed to practice medicine again IMO but having much experience with addicts I will add that if propofol is needed to go to sleep where demerol or any other sleep aid is not effective, you must be an extreme addict of many, many meds where the body becomes immune to the standard medications and needs excessive and stronger meds to do the trick. I believe MJ was a severe drug addict be it at the time of his death or before and recovering where his system was still unbalanced. The autopsy released is not necessarily the autopsy findings. Many actors, singers etc... have died this past year and the public was giving the most outrageous reasons I have ever heard while the "said" person had a true past of cocaine any other addictions. I think CM should lose his license for putting money before morals but still on the fence about jail time.

EPfan
11-04-2011, 04:51 PM
I know the trial that happened way back 6 years ago is off topic but I will say this.

We all could see that MJ was taking sedatives during the trial. Like Tom Mes. said 'who wouldnt?..... it was the most devastating time of his life that he was having to endure.' I don't even take meds but I sure would if I had been accused falsely of something this horrific. I would have to take them in order to get through it all.

People have to be treated if they truly need medication whether it is for pain or anxiety. We learned that in the trial about Anna Nicole Smith trial.

In fact iirc in 2006 a law was passed in California that a doctor cant refuse to treat anyone who they believe has legitimate pain or emotional issues.

IMO

off subject also.
MJ wasn't completly innocent but with that being said, if you followed the evidence of the trial, I agree with the verdict. (and that's a whole other ball game)

peace9274
11-04-2011, 04:53 PM
I won't say anthing and it would't have anything to do with this trial.(unless it would have been brought into evidence.)
The only thing I will say is most people that have worked for MJ know stuff but sign a contract that they won't disclose things.
My daughter knows someone that know things not rumor.
I was really overwhelmed but I'm glad she hadn't told me earlier.


BBM

IMO

I wouldn't trust someone who says they worked for MJ, or any celebrity, that says they signed a contract
that stated they would NOT give out personal information, and then goes ahead and divulges personal information
about the person/celebrity for whom they're working.

MsFacetious
11-04-2011, 04:54 PM
haven't commented on this trial but here goes----No doctor has ever given Propofol in a home setting. I'm a Pediatrician and have to say their are big time controls on any meds used for sedation. We use to given chloral hydrate to children before CT's and other procedures. At my rural Iowa hospital I can't even order this. It has to be administered by anesthesia - ie MD or nurse anesthesist ---and the children are monitored on cardio-apnea monitors and an Ambu bag is bedside. Same thing goes with Versed for conscious sedation. Propofol is administered in the OR and the patients are intubated and monitored by an anestheiologist. CM's actions are unconscionable. As Physicians we take the Hippocratic oath and must always follow the oath FIRST DO NO HARM!!! Thats all I'm going to say!!!!!! It embarrasses me that he is a doctor!!!!!

Ditto, when they did outpatient procedures even before MJ, they wouldn't use Propofol even in a clinic with all medical equipment, attached to a hospital... it had to be in an actual hospital.

I loved it when they said something about what was Dr Murray supposed to do... put an alarm on MJ's bed?

Ever heard of an Oximeter?? They are even easier to learn than CPR... they are CHEAP and they have.... ALARMS on them.

Amazon.com: Handheld Pulse Oximeter MD300I: Health & Personal Care@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/314ksiPbisL.@@AMEPARAM@@314ksiPbisL

Amazon.com: HandHeld Pulse Oximeter MD300K1 by BestCare with adjustable alarm limits: Health & Personal Care@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31T7er8lEPL.@@AMEPARAM@@31T7er8lEPL

Amazon.com: PC-66 Handheld Adult Pulse Oximeter (Yellow) Combo with Child and Infant Probes - FDA Approved: Health & Personal Care@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31A%2Bcyjv14L.@@AMEPARAM@@31A%2Bcyjv14L

MsFacetious
11-04-2011, 04:58 PM
HLN's Jane Velez-Mitchell suggesting that Jackson family members might simply be headed for downtown L.A. hotels so that they are close to the Courthouse when a verdict is reached.

That is what TMZ has been saying... that they are going to stay in a hotel until a verdict is reached.
Because with traffic and weather, it could easily take them more than two hours to get to the courthouse.
They say it's unclear if other members of the family are doing the same thing.

EPfan
11-04-2011, 05:02 PM
IMO

I wouldn't trust someone who says they worked for MJ, or any celebrity, that says they signed a contract
that stated they would NOT give out personal information, and then goes ahead and divulges personal information
about the person/celebrity for whom they're working.

With all due respect to you. My daughter has no reason to lie to me and doesn't lie. What she has told me she knows for a fact. She wouldn't gain anything by saying what she told me. (and I should have kept my mouth shut here because people don't know you and don't want to face the truth sometimes) She loves MJ but she also doesn't believe in fairy tales and is a person who faces facts and truth and doesn't sugar coat anything. (thank goodness).
Something things aren't what they appear to be.

KEVINinTO
11-04-2011, 05:07 PM
I think the fact that the Jurors chose to have a shorter lunch according to KTLA (1 hour instead of the standard 1 1/2 hours) says to me that they are looking to wrap this up today. Normally they would work until 5:00 PM (although could work overtime). Given that 2 hours notice is required I am predicating they will announce that they have reached a verdict sometime in the next hour.

abc7MurrayTrial ABC7 Murray Trial
We are back in the courtroom. Jurors asked to take only 1 hour lunch today from 12p-1p. They wanted to go back to work at 1p, so they did.

peace9274
11-04-2011, 05:08 PM
From the TMZ's livestream:

(Link: http://www.tmz.com )

(the screen shows the seal)

Below it, there's a box, with a guilty or not guilty poll.

Results: 50,910 votes
Guilty - 71%
Not Guilty -29%


"The moment of truth -- after a grueling six-week manslaughter trial, jurors in the Dr. Conrad Murray case are currently deliberating.


It could be two hours ... it could be two weeks -- but we'll be covering it LIVE from start to finish in case anything happens.

STAY TUNED.


1:22 PM: The jury is now back from lunch and deliberations have resumed.

12:40 PM: La Toya Jackson just tweeted, "I'm so shaky right now waiting for a verdict! Every little noise has me jumping out of my skin!"

Minutes later, she added, "JUSTICE HAS TO BE SERVED ON MURRAY AND THEN WE MUST GO AFTER THE OTHER CONSPIRES! (sic)"

peace9274
11-04-2011, 05:12 PM
With all due respect to you. My daughter has no reason to lie to me and doesn't lie. What she has told me she knows for a fact. She wouldn't gain anything by saying what she told me. (and I should have kept my mouth shut here because people don't know you and don't want to face the truth sometimes) She loves MJ but she also doesn't believe in fairy tales and is a person who faces facts and truth and doesn't sugar coat anything. (thank goodness).
Something things aren't what they appear to be.

I didn't say I don't trust your daughter. I do.

I don't trust the MJ employee that is giving out personal information, that under contract, he should not be doing.

MsFacetious
11-04-2011, 05:18 PM
I think the fact that the Jurors chose to have a shorter lunch according to KTLA (1 hour instead of the standard 1 1/2 hours) says to me that they are looking to wrap this up today. Normally they would work until 5:00 PM (although could work overtime). Given that 2 hours notice is required I am predicating they will announce that they have reached a verdict sometime in the next hour.

It has been reported that they CANNOT work overtime due to the budget issues.

So less than 3 hours left in the day if that is true...

Now my question is WHO gets that two hour notice?
Do they notify those who need to travel to the courthouse and then give the media and public the more normal 30 minutes or so notice?

Since the media hasn't left the courthouse, they don't really need two hours...
I'm wondering if that 2 hour notice is just for those who have to travel to the courthouse...

peace9274
11-04-2011, 05:26 PM
I didn't say I don't trust your daughter. I do.

I don't trust the MJ employee that is giving out personal information, that under contract, he should not be doing.

I lived in the Los Angeles area and did my nurse training in 2 hospitals,
(St John's & Santa Monica) where I had many celebrities as patients.

I worked at LA Children's Hospital, where I had many children of celebrities as patients...
and where the celebrity parents kept vigil day & night.

I saw, heard, and read (their charts) a lot of stuff that the press would love to know and write about.
Stuff that no one would believe, that would make your toes curl.

But, IMO... it's not something that any employee of or anyone that does business with or
anyone who cares for, in a medical setting, a celebrity, should be doing.... ---> releasing private & personal info on anyone...
especially a hi-profile celebrity.

Just saying....

MsFacetious
11-04-2011, 05:31 PM
They will carry the verdict live online here:

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/entertainment&id=8419322

(For anyone else who can't watch it live on TV)

outofstatelawyer
11-04-2011, 05:32 PM
Buzz from jury!

KEVINinTO
11-04-2011, 05:32 PM
BREAKING

There has been a "buzz" from the jury according to HLN. Not clear if 2 or 3 buzzes (3 = verdict)

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 05:33 PM
Jury buzzed no idea how many buzzes.

peace9274
11-04-2011, 05:33 PM
It has been reported that they CANNOT work overtime due to the budget issues.

So less than 3 hours left in the day if that is true...

Now my question is WHO gets that two hour notice?
Do they notify those who need to travel to the courthouse and then give the media and public the more normal 30 minutes or so notice?

Since the media hasn't left the courthouse, they don't really need two hours...
I'm wondering if that 2 hour notice is just for those who have to travel to the courthouse...

I'm going to say, and it's MOO, that the 2 hrs is for the fans of MJ, for websleuthers :)...who are
also trial watchers, and for any other of the public that needs to get to a TV, computer or radio.


BTW: Vinnie P is saying right now there's a buzz coming from the courtroom!

KEVINinTO
11-04-2011, 05:34 PM
False alarm. Just 2 buzzes

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 05:34 PM
I just realized how excited I can get from a buzz. Lol

oceanblueeyes
11-04-2011, 05:34 PM
I didn't say I don't trust your daughter. I do.

I don't trust the MJ employee that is giving out personal information, that under contract, he should not be doing.

I wouldn't either especially knowing so many who worked for MJ had their own ulterior motives.

And Michael Jackson didn't corner the market on a confidentiality agreement.

Most who work around entertainers and stars have to sign confidentiality agreements and it makes sense because if not they would constantly be selling stories to the tabloids.

outofstatelawyer
11-04-2011, 05:34 PM
Two buzzes = note or question

outofstatelawyer
11-04-2011, 05:35 PM
Jeez it's a break request!

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 05:36 PM
Okay IMO one or more jurors are smokers. They need another break.

BetteDavisEyes
11-04-2011, 05:36 PM
If this goes on for much longer, we'll all be "buzzed"! :D

Velouria
11-04-2011, 05:39 PM
We get it, Vinnie. You'll tweet us with all the latest buzz on the buzz! Sheesh.

peace9274
11-04-2011, 05:41 PM
I just realized how excited I can get from a buzz. Lol


:floorlaugh::great::woohoo::crazy:

outofstatelawyer
11-04-2011, 05:41 PM
Someone said earlier on this thread:

"The autopsy released is not necessarily the autopsy findings"

That is patently false. I don't like letting false statements like this go uncorrected, because this is the way that Conspiracy Theories get started, and I don't like Conspiracy Theories.

The autopsy released is the OFFICIAL autopsy, the same autopsy that was testified to in court and is probably in evidence in this case. End of story.

oceanblueeyes
11-04-2011, 05:41 PM
If this goes on for much longer, we'll all be "buzzed"! :D

"buzzed shocked":floorlaugh:

MsFacetious
11-04-2011, 05:41 PM
Smoking is bad for your health... even second hand smoke that is a few states away! :banghead:

Hopefully it's a final smoke before they announce a verdict. Or maybe someone is like me and has to pee a lot. :waitasec:

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 05:42 PM
We get it, Vinnie. You'll tweet us with all the latest buzz on the buzz! Sheesh.

I think he is trying to beat Justin Beirber's tweet fans #.

:floorlaugh:

oceanblueeyes
11-04-2011, 05:43 PM
Someone said earlier on this thread:

"The autopsy released is not necessarily the autopsy findings"

That is patently false. I don't like letting false statements like this go uncorrected, because this is the way that Conspiracy Theories get started, and I don't like Conspiracy Theories.

The autopsy released is the OFFICIAL autopsy, the same autopsy that was testified to in court and is probably in evidence in this case. End of story.

OMG! I missed that post, I guess. Glad you clarified that information.

Of course it is the official autopsy report. My goodness this was entered in a court of law.

IMO

peace9274
11-04-2011, 05:45 PM
We get it, Vinnie. You'll tweet us with all the latest buzz on the buzz! Sheesh.

"The boy who cried wolf".

No one will show up for the verdict announcement, after the actual real buzz. :waitasec:

MsFacetious
11-04-2011, 05:47 PM
If there is not a verdict today we will be back Monday.

So no overtime.

That means about 1 hour and 25 minutes left if they don't go any longer than they have been going...

https://twitter.com/#!/abc7MurrayTrial

RR0004
11-04-2011, 05:47 PM
May justice come to you, Michael. Prayers for you and your family as they await the verdict.

Michael Jackson - This Is It - YouTube

Velouria
11-04-2011, 05:58 PM
Great, Jane is killing time by interviewing spectators on the street. If only they'd invite Triumph the Insult Comic Dog and spice it up a bit. :giggle:

MsFacetious
11-04-2011, 06:02 PM
Great, Jane is killing time by interviewing spectators on the street. If only they'd invite Triumph the Insult Comic Dog and spice it up a bit. :giggle:

Why not Polly the Insulting Parrot?? :giggle:

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 06:02 PM
OFGoodness sakes, another buzz, but no one knows what they mean. Can't one of them holler out of the door. LOL

Plumeria5
11-04-2011, 06:06 PM
OFGoodness sakes, another buzz, but no one knows what they mean. Can't one of them holler out of the door. LOL

Here a buzz,
There a buzz,
Everywhere a buzz, buzz!! :banghead:

peace9274
11-04-2011, 06:07 PM
For livestream coverage of the courtroom, when the jurors return to announce their verdict...
Here are a few links:


TMZ
http://www.tmz.com

FOX
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpps/news/justice/conrad-murray-michael-jackson-doctor-trial-app_15219744

CNN
http://www.cnn.com/video/

ABC
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/livenow?id=8366366

LA TIMES
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/michael-jackson-trial/

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 06:08 PM
Here a buzz,
There a buzz,
Everywhere a buzz, buzz!! :banghead:

:floorlaugh:

Every say a word over and over again, then it sounds weird. That is what I am starting to hear listening to HLN. :crazy:

BetteDavisEyes
11-04-2011, 06:11 PM
TGIF. Time to get your buzz on :D :toast: :cautionDrunk: Smoke if ya got 'em!

MsFacetious
11-04-2011, 06:12 PM
OFGoodness sakes, another buzz, but no one knows what they mean. Can't one of them holler out of the door. LOL

They SHOULD know if it's a verdict because that should be 3 buzzes and different from all the others.

There is only 48 minutes left.

It's not looking promising for today peeps... however... there's still a little bit of hope.

https://twitter.com/#!/abc7MurrayTrial

"Deliberation will go until 4 pm today. And yes, if there's a verdict at 3:59 pm we'll hear it today."

Talina
11-04-2011, 06:15 PM
Hi everyone.

I've seen tweets saying the court has says they're deliberating til 4:00. I've seen tweets that say court has said 4:15. I've seen tweets that court has said they're deliberating til 4:30.

Who knows? Obviously all the tweets can't be right and they've all been within the last 30 minutes. :floorlaugh:

Plumeria5
11-04-2011, 06:15 PM
:floorlaugh:

Every say a word over and over again, then it sounds weird. That is what I am starting to hear listening to HLN. :crazy:

:pullhair: :panic:

ges79
11-04-2011, 06:16 PM
As Dr. Conrad Murray (http://www.radaronline.com/category/tags/dr-conrad-murray)'s fate is being determined by a jury, the embattled cardiologist is being interviewed by documentary filmmakers that have been working on the untitled project since he was charged with involuntary manslaughter in connection with the death of Michael Jackson (http://www.radaronline.com/category/tags/michael-jackson), RadarOnline.com (http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/11/conrad-murray-filming-documentary-while-waiting-verdict) is exclusively reporting.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/11/conrad-murray-filming-documentary-while-waiting-verdict

peace9274
11-04-2011, 06:17 PM
They SHOULD know if it's a verdict because that should be 3 buzzes and different from all the others.

There is only 48 minutes left.

It's not looking promising for today peeps... however... there's still a little bit of hope.

https://twitter.com/#!/abc7MurrayTrial

"Deliberation will go until 4 pm today. And yes, if there's a verdict at 3:59 pm we'll hear it today."

There's a mind reader amongst us!

She answered my question just as I was getting ready to post it!!!
("What happens if there's a verdict at 3:59pm?).

Thanx, MsFacetious!!! :)

outofstatelawyer
11-04-2011, 06:18 PM
OMG if I have to hear about Ruby Mosely being Vinnie's favorite witness again, I may vomit.

Plumeria5
11-04-2011, 06:20 PM
I love watching Ms. Brazil's face when she asks, "When you say instrument what is it exactly you are referring to?"

She looked at the witness like, "What a piece of work!"

peace9274
11-04-2011, 06:21 PM
My 2 witnesses were just shown on HLN.

1. Ms Ruby! ("Excuse me, Judge, WHAAAA?")

2. CM's GF ("I need to take care of my instrument. My instrument is my body.")

Seriously. No, I mean really. They were.

Well, after Dr Shafer, that is.

Velouria
11-04-2011, 06:21 PM
OMG if I have to hear about Ruby Mosely being Vinnie's favorite witness again, I may vomit.

Amen!

Every time I see the clip of Miss Ruby, I expect her to call Walgren a "fish-eyed fool". :floorlaugh:

peace9274
11-04-2011, 06:22 PM
OMG if I have to hear about Ruby Mosely being Vinnie's favorite witness again, I may vomit.

Ooops. I spoke too soon.

MsFacetious
11-04-2011, 06:23 PM
If the jury says they have a verdict at 4 pm bailiff said the will read it at 6 pm.

There will be 2 hours before the verdict is read, regardless of the time. 6 pm reading is the latest it can happen.

https://twitter.com/#!/abc7MurrayTrial

ges79
11-04-2011, 06:24 PM
My 2 witnesses were just shown on HLN.

1. Ms Ruby! ("Excuse me, Judge, WHAAAA?")

2. CM's GF ("I need to take care of my instrument. My instrument is my body.")

Seriously. No, I mean really. They were.

Well, after Dr Shafer, that is.

BBM One of the most memorable quotes of the trial. :floorlaugh::crazy::innocent:

peace9274
11-04-2011, 06:30 PM
As Dr. Conrad Murray (http://www.radaronline.com/category/tags/dr-conrad-murray)'s fate is being determined by a jury, the embattled cardiologist is being interviewed by documentary filmmakers that have been working on the untitled project since he was charged with involuntary manslaughter in connection with the death of Michael Jackson (http://www.radaronline.com/category/tags/michael-jackson), RadarOnline.com (http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/11/conrad-murray-filming-documentary-while-waiting-verdict) is exclusively reporting.

http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/11/conrad-murray-filming-documentary-while-waiting-verdict

My # 2 son (of 3) is a documentary filmmaker / writer / critic / reviewer.

I hope it isn't anyone he knows or works with!!

Can't be my son... he's in NYC and attending the DOC NYC Film Festival.

(He spent Wednesday, the opening night gala, with Werner Herzog!) :)

outofstatelawyer
11-04-2011, 06:32 PM
*Sigh*. Perhaps Walgren should have argued to the jury that of course Murray's patients who came into the courtroom thought Murray was a great doctor, but so did Michael Jackson! Although I did love his line that ""it's a wonder MJ lived as long as he did under Murray's 'care' ".

outofstatelawyer
11-04-2011, 06:33 PM
My # 2 son (of 3) is a documentary filmmaker / writer / critic / reviewer.

I hope it isn't anyone he knows or works with!!

Can't be my son... he's in NYC and attending the DOC NYC Film Festival.

(He spent Wednesday, the opening night gala, with Werner Herzog!) :)

How exciting! I love the Documentary Channel!

peace9274
11-04-2011, 06:36 PM
BBM One of the most memorable quotes of the trial. :floorlaugh::crazy::innocent:


When she first said "I need to take care of my instrument."

My 1st thought was... oh please God, don't let her say it's her body.

I've heard men refer to their "best friend" as their instrument, tool, toy, handle, member....

... but please GAWD... not someone of the same, fair and always appropriate, sex that I am!!!

peace9274
11-04-2011, 06:41 PM
How exciting! I love the Documentary Channel!

How cool... He'll be glad to hear that someone said that to me.
A lot of people do not get the Doc Channel. Including me!!!

Here's a link to the blog he writes for the Documentary Channel and photo of him,
if you don't mind me sharing/bragging... while we wait for the verdict. :)


http://blog.documentarychannel.com/post/12301575977/doc-nyc-werner-herzog-says-documentarians-must-be

oceanblueeyes
11-04-2011, 06:42 PM
When she first said "I need to take care of my instrument."

My 1st thought was... oh please God, don't let her say it's her body.

I've heard men refer to their "best friend" as their instrument, tool, toy, handle, member....

... but please GAWD... not someone of the same, fair and always appropriate, sex that I am!!!

The way Deborah Brazil looked at her when she asked her that question was priceless!:floorlaugh: Deborah knew she was talking abut her body.:crazy:

MsFacetious
11-04-2011, 06:45 PM
Last 15 minutes... otherwise we wait till Monday.

ges79
11-04-2011, 06:46 PM
How cool... He'll be glad to hear that someone said that to me.
A lot of people do not get the Doc Channel. Including me!!!

Here's a link to the blog he writes for the Documentary Channel and photo of him,
if you don't mind me sharing/bragging... while we wait for the verdict. :)


http://blog.documentarychannel.com/post/12301575977/doc-nyc-werner-herzog-says-documentarians-must-be

Nice! Thank you for sharing with all of us. :seeya:

Talina
11-04-2011, 06:46 PM
The way Deborah Brazil looked at her when she asked her that question was priceless!:floorlaugh: Deborah knew she was talking abut her body.:crazy:

It wasn't just that she said it but the expression and hand motion going down her torso was what got me cracking up. She was so proud of her moment up there on the stand. :floorlaugh:

outofstatelawyer
11-04-2011, 06:46 PM
How cool... He'll be glad to hear that someone said that to me.
A lot of people do not get the Doc Channel. Including me!!!

Here's a link to the blog he writes for the Documentary Channel and photo of him,
if you don't mind me sharing/bragging... while we wait for the verdict. :)


http://blog.documentarychannel.com/post/12301575977/doc-nyc-werner-herzog-says-documentarians-must-be

Wow!!!

We just got it on our DirectTV Satellite about a year ago. I've watched some excellent stuff on there. Your boy is adorable. You are rightfully a proud momma!

outofstatelawyer
11-04-2011, 06:49 PM
Poor David Walgren! Let me tell you that there is no more anxious time in a lawyer's life than waiting on a jury. Your stomach is in knots, you can't eat, you really can't concentrate on anything else, you keep thinking what you should have said, what witness you might have called, etc.

ges79
11-04-2011, 06:53 PM
When she first said "I need to take care of my instrument."

My 1st thought was... oh please God, don't let her say it's her body.

I've heard men refer to their "best friend" as their instrument, tool, toy, handle, member....

... but please GAWD... not someone of the same, fair and always appropriate, sex that I am!!!

I thought that was a peculiar term to use. So glad Miss Brazil asked her for clarification. Thought I read/heard that she worked or met CM at a ahem...'gentlemen's club' (apologies if this is erroneous info) So maybe this is why she refers to herself as an 'instrument' :innocent:

EPfan
11-04-2011, 06:56 PM
I didn't say I don't trust your daughter. I do.

I don't trust the MJ employee that is giving out personal information, that under contract, he should not be doing.

I didn't mean to lead on that she is friends with a MJ employee she isn't.

Isabelle
11-04-2011, 06:58 PM
I didn't know that jurors could leave and go home while in deliberations??

peace9274
11-04-2011, 07:02 PM
It wasn't just that she said it but the expression and hand motion going down her torso was what got me cracking up. She was so proud of her moment up there on the stand. :floorlaugh:

And, after Deborah B asked.. she said it like

"What. Are you crazy? You don't know what an instrument is??? OH MY.
Well every famous, beautiful actress like I am... knows what a... and takes care of her... instrument "

MsFacetious
11-04-2011, 07:06 PM
It's 4:04 pm in Los Angeles. Jurors are still in the deliberation room. No buzzes yet.

https://twitter.com/#!/abc7MurrayTrial

EPfan
11-04-2011, 07:08 PM
I was going to say earlier that asking for high-lighter reminds of college days. They are surely high-lighting important things to them. Interesting and maybe the bio-chemist is the lead.

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 07:10 PM
2 buzzes. My guess is the are ready to leave for the day.

EPfan
11-04-2011, 07:10 PM
2 buzzes

octobermoon
11-04-2011, 07:11 PM
Jury going home.

KEVINinTO
11-04-2011, 07:11 PM
Ugh ! Jury going home

EPfan
11-04-2011, 07:11 PM
they requested to leave for the day.

MsFacetious
11-04-2011, 07:11 PM
Wonderful. All weekend to wait.

Isabelle
11-04-2011, 07:11 PM
I can't believe they can go home while in deliberation. Good grief they return on Monday. That is strange.

Isabelle
11-04-2011, 07:12 PM
Please tell me we don't have another pinellas group!

peace9274
11-04-2011, 07:13 PM
Someone at the courthouse is speaking to J V-M on her show; says jurors just buzzed twice and have reported they are through for the day and are excused to go home.

peace9274
11-04-2011, 07:20 PM
Wow!!!

We just got it on our DirectTV Satellite about a year ago. I've watched some excellent stuff on there. Your boy is adorable. You are rightfully a proud momma!


Thank you, outofstatelawyer....
That's sweet of you to say.

I really AM a proud mom... of all 3 sons.

But I feel guilty now for not bragging about son # 3,
so please bear with me while I post that he works for
Comedy Central... as on-air artist.

TIA! :)

ges79
11-04-2011, 07:21 PM
They have deliberated for about 6 hours and 8 minutes, approximately. No questions or request for read back.

https://twitter.com/#!/abc7MurrayTrial (https://twitter.com/#%21/abc7MurrayTrial)

peace9274
11-04-2011, 07:26 PM
They have deliberated for about 6 hours and 8 minutes, approximately. No questions or request for read back.

https://twitter.com/#!/abc7MurrayTrial (https://twitter.com/#%21/abc7MurrayTrial)

Well, regardless of what their verdict will be, they won't be blamed for rushing through
deliberations, for discussing in too short of time, or for not having enough time to decide.

outofstatelawyer
11-04-2011, 07:59 PM
Thank you, outofstatelawyer....
That's sweet of you to say.

I really AM a proud mom... of all 3 sons.

But I feel guilty now for not bragging about son # 3,
so please bear with me while I post that he works for
Comedy Central... as on-air artist.

TIA! :)

You're Jon Stewart's mom?:floorlaugh:

borndem
11-04-2011, 08:22 PM
So on the fence about this. On one hand, it's pretty clear that MJ had many doctors, not just CM prescribe drugs he shouldn't have been using and he was clearly a drug addict. He also used his power of being a megastar with loads of money to get what he wanted. On the other hand, CM was on MJ's payroll and as a physician who is supposed to be practising moral ethics and aiding people in promoting health and saving lives, he is without question morally corrupt. I don't know if you can blame all the physicians that enabled MJ or we just fell upon one to take the fall for all parties including MJ and his life style.

Well, it's a start.

oceanblueeyes
11-04-2011, 08:47 PM
I didn't know that jurors could leave and go home while in deliberations??

Yes, they can and imo that is why they aren't in any hurry to come to a verdict.

Also several have been jurors in the past and I am sure they know about Fridays brings verdicts and they do not want to seem predictable.

So I imagine it could be sometime Monday afternoon or even Tuesday morning.

Imo, I cant see them letting Murray walk free. If so then they are sending the wrong message that doctors are above the law and what he did or did not do is acceptable to them.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
11-04-2011, 08:54 PM
When she first said "I need to take care of my instrument."

My 1st thought was... oh please God, don't let her say it's her body.

I've heard men refer to their "best friend" as their instrument, tool, toy, handle, member....

... but please GAWD... not someone of the same, fair and always appropriate, sex that I am!!!

Dont you know ADA Brazil wanted to say 'but Ms. Alvarez I thought Conrad took care of your instrument?":floorlaugh:

peace9274
11-04-2011, 08:59 PM
Dont you know ADA Brazil wanted to say 'but Ms. Alvarez I thought Conrad took care of your instrument?":floorlaugh:


:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:Your jokes are funnier & always top mine! :floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

(You're excused to leave the thread now.)

oceanblueeyes
11-04-2011, 08:59 PM
Please tell me we don't have another pinellas group!

Don't worry...they have only deliberated a little over 6 hours and I think this jury is serious deliberators.

I think even the infamous Pinellas-12 chatted and talked about the weather and vacays for around 10 hours.:floorlaugh:

peace9274
11-04-2011, 09:00 PM
Yes, they can and imo that is why they aren't in any hurry to come to a verdict.

Also several have been jurors in the past and I am sure they know about Fridays brings verdicts and they do not want to seem predictable.

So I imagine it could be sometime Monday afternoon or even Tuesday morning.

Imo, I cant see them letting Murray walk free. If so then they are sending the wrong message that doctors are above the law and what he did or did not do is acceptable to them.

IMO

I was hoping they'd deliberate through the week-end.
Don't jurors normally?

oceanblueeyes
11-04-2011, 09:03 PM
:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:Your jokes are funnier & always top mine! :floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

(You're excused to leave the thread now.)

But...but...but I just came back!:D:back::back:

Pleeeze dont make me leave!:rocker:

oceanblueeyes
11-04-2011, 09:06 PM
I was hoping they'd deliberate through the week-end.
Don't jurors normally?

It depends on the state and poor California is so broke and cant afford to pay for court staff for additional hours.

Now in my state of Georgia... Judges have been known to let jurors deliberate Saturday and a half day on Sunday.

IMO

borndem
11-04-2011, 09:51 PM
If anyone watches the T/Hs for their information then they can be led to believe anything.

That is why I much prefer watching the case gavel to gavel on line where I miss none of the actual trial testimony.

I don't think I have ever seen a case where I felt it was a slam dunk case although I certainly have seen a lot of them where I think the state proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt and the jury agreed.

That is simply not the truth. There is a link either on this thread or the previous one where a doctor was convicted of involuntary manslaughter by administering a drug in a home clinic and the patient died. The victim was a dishwasher, iirc.

I will find the article again.

So this is NOT about it being Michael Jackson. This is all about trying to obtain justice for a victim who lost his life by the hands of another.

Oh I found the article.

February 26, 2011|By Hector Becerra, Los Angeles Times
Nearly three years after a 30-year-old man died on the operating table at an Inglewood home turned into a neighborhood clinic, a Los Angeles County Superior Court jury Friday convicted the surgeon of involuntary manslaughter.

Dr. Roberto Bonilla, 64, was found guilty in a Torrance courthouse in the death of Osvaldo Hernandez, a restaurant dishwasher and illegal immigrant from Mexico who had paid the surgeon several thousand dollars in cash to relieve a sharp pain in his belly.http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/26/local/la-me-0226-home-surgery-20110226

JUSTICE FOR ALL!


IMO


I think what my brain surgeon called an "anesthesia event" when he & I were discussing my upcoming surgery, does happen from time to time. Those "events" can occur in a fully staffed and outfitted O/R or a similar outpatient facility, and if it looks like an error occurred, things are handled sotto voce and payment is made by the insurance company or the hospital, if necessary, and agreed upon by the parties involved. Those kinds of things usually don't make it to court or if so, as has been said, it is not a world event because "only" your next door neighbor was on that table.

These kinds of things DO happen, but they happen in the appropriate arena -- ask an anesthesiologist (or radiologist, but they are not the subject here) why his or her malpractice insurance is higher than average -- "hours of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror" -- you've heard that phrase.

And if the parties cannot agree, it goes to civil court for hashing out...

Some events are from true mistakes, and sometimes "things just happen." Not every birth is perfect; not every appendectomy or knee replacement is perfect. But anesthesia events do happen, and the only reason we know is because it IS our next door neighbor...

How many MJ-like events have occurred?? This IMO is most likely the first of its kind, thank-you, God. Let's pray that it's the last.

This June 25, 2009, "anesthesia event" was not merely a civil matter. There was nothing "civil" about it.

JMO

katydid23
11-04-2011, 09:54 PM
It makes me a bit worried that they are not done yet deliberating. I hope there re not one or two hold outs that are siding with Murray. On the car radio today, on KFI, I heard two defense attorneys talking about how strong they thought the DT closing arguments were. UUGGHHHHHHH

borndem
11-04-2011, 09:58 PM
People who have tickets for seats in the courtroom have also been notified to come.(HLN)


How in the world could all those folks be notified?? Hmmm, sounds funky to me, HLN.

borndem
11-04-2011, 11:38 PM
BBM

I can definitely see why there are people who believe MJ is an addict.
He admitted to being addicted to demerol and to going to a rehab & treatment in England and in CA.... yrs ago.

However, I am one of the ones who believes he was "in recovery" and not actively abusing drugs.

As a nurse who worked many years on detox & rehab units, I know what long time active addicts have in their
blood, their urine, their system, what their vital organs are like on autopsy, but mainly how functional they are.

Based on what I know and what all I've heard and seen about Michael Jackson in the yrs, months, weeks, days prior to his death...
IMO, MJ was not actively abusing drugs.

People in recovery are ALWAYS told, when they need to take meds, especially mind altering drugs/narcotics/meds...
to make sure it's someone they trust, someone that knows what they're doing, and to hold onto, administer & supervise the meds for them.

Michael did do that when he felt he needed demerol for a procedure, when he needed something for sleep,
and probably other times he needed to take medication.

MJ's autopsy report stated that he was in better health than most 50 yr old men.
It said his vital organs appeared to be in very good condition.... including his cardio vascular system.

The only time MJ was feeling "dope sick" was a week or days prior to his death.
The only time the CEO's of production observed MJ to be acting strange, was during the same time he wasn't feeling well.

During that time, MJ was under the care of a doctor, who was someone MJ trusted, someone
who should've known what he was doing, someone who was constantly observing MJ.

MJ was NOT (IMO) responsible for making sure CM had all the right equipment, that the 02 tanks were filled, that the meds were locked up...
MJ had too many other things for which to be responsible. He hired and was going to pay good money to have someone he trusted to oversee
and supervise and make sure that it all ran smoothly.

OK that's it... something's going on, I think... on HLN.... and they're showing the great seal!! Gotta see what it is. :)

ETA: OK, seems like it was nothing REAL important at the moment.

So I just want to add, that the trial is NOT about MJ.

It's about Dr Conrad Murray, his gross negligence, his failure to supervise and properly care for MJ as he should have, as other doctors would have.

And all the other things he did and did not do to save MJ's life.


And this is why I hang on WebSleuths!!!

Thank you, sweet peace9274, for speaking to us from a medical caregiver's point of view on drug-dependent and drug-dependent-in-recovery patients. We have lawyers, nurses, computer- and telecom- techs, accounting professionals, etc., etc., that always add so much to cases we are following here at WebSleuths.

Your view of MJ, and others like him, is invaluable to me, since I am, fortunately, a step away from the realities and facts about addiction and addiction-recovery. I am thankful that I have been fortunate enuff to be at arm's length from it, but I realize that tomorrow or the next day, my world could be different. I am not naive to it, but I have not had to deal with it directly so far in my lucky little life.

Some of the articles "out there" in cyber-world about MJ are a come-on for "come to our treatment center" we have had celebrities "like" MJ or "like" Lohan..... but they haven't treated either of those, although their article titles make it seem so. Pure junk, and worse, a total waste of time and space.

And your words here about MJ do bring us back down to earth and remind us about the reality that he may have faced. Lonely, private and scary. Dangerous, too. And it is from a professional's experience and point-of-view. Something a bit more real, down-to-earth and practical.

I thank you, and please don't stop. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

borndem
11-04-2011, 11:57 PM
I know the trial that happened way back 6 years ago is off topic but I will say this.

We all could see that MJ was taking sedatives during the trial. Like Tom Mes. said 'who wouldnt?..... it was the most devastating time of his life that he was having to endure.' I don't even take meds but I sure would if I had been accused falsely of something this horrific. I would have to take them in order to get through it all.

People have to be treated if they truly need medication whether it is for pain or anxiety. We learned that in the trial about Anna Nicole Smith trial.

In fact iirc in 2006 a law was passed in California that a doctor cant refuse to treat anyone who they believe has legitimate pain or emotional issues.

IMO

Why can't we as a society just "get it" when it comes to "mental" sickness? Even the term, "mental" is negative and judgmental. Still.

If someone's stomach is sick, it's okay to say to our co-workers, "Oh, I was out yesterday with stomach problems." No big deal when it's, "I have some back problems, so I need to leave early to see the doctor," or, "My allergies are acting up again, so I have to get another prescription."

But when someone says, "I need to go to my psychiatrist because I'm not well, and I'm having sleeping problems again," or "I'm having a bit of anxiety today, so I'm going to leave early to see my therapist."

Muscle therapy is okay, but mental therapy isn't. Why can't we just get over it? Our brains, our minds, are organs, too. And aren't we glad we have 'em?

Just sayin.'
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon11.gif

Melanie
11-05-2011, 12:02 AM
oh bloody ell, DH came home tonight and said the jury was gonna find him not guilty. He said the same thing w/Casey Anthony. I hope he's wrong.

Mel

New1
11-05-2011, 12:06 AM
I've never been and still am not a MJ fan. I like to watch him dance, but that's it--I don't care for his singing. That being said, if I was sitting on this jury, it would not be taking me this long to find Conrad Murray guilty.

He lied in his self-serving statement to the police saying that HE insisted on an autopsy when clearly this was not his call to make. He comforted the children? This is false too according to witnesses. He failed to mention the Propofol when asked directly by EMTs and hospital staff what medications he had given him. He witnessed the arrest. But then he said he came back into the room after being gone only 2 minutes (another lie as proven by the phone records) and found MJ not breathing. All these lies cause me not to believe a word he said. I don't even believe he only gave him 25mg of Propofol--he kept no records, so he could just have said any amount. I believe he gave him more than that and also a drip. The Propofol bottle in the slit saline bag had a spike puncture in it from being attached to the IV tubing, not a needle puncture. A drip would be the only reason that spike puncture was there.

Conrad Murray caused the death of MJ. WHAT IS TAKING SO LONG FOR A VERDICT!!!!!!? MOO

borndem
11-05-2011, 12:11 AM
I just realized how excited I can get from a buzz. Lol

Ahhhhhhhhhh, brings back memories (kinda foggy) of the 70's!!!!!!http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif lol

Isabelle
11-05-2011, 12:14 AM
Maybe the jury has made a decision and agreed to ponder it over the weekend??

borndem
11-05-2011, 12:15 AM
Jeez it's a break request!

Ain't this just some trial???

Even a pee break makes the news.:crazy:

(Pleeeeeze 'scuse the raunch, but just couldn't help it...) http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon6.gif

borndem
11-05-2011, 12:18 AM
Someone said earlier on this thread:

"The autopsy released is not necessarily the autopsy findings"

That is patently false. I don't like letting false statements like this go uncorrected, because this is the way that Conspiracy Theories get started, and I don't like Conspiracy Theories.

The autopsy released is the OFFICIAL autopsy, the same autopsy that was testified to in court and is probably in evidence in this case. End of story.

Thanks for keeping us honest, oosl. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

borndem
11-05-2011, 12:33 AM
BBM One of the most memorable quotes of the trial. :floorlaugh::crazy::innocent:


:lol:But we really do need for them to include Brazil's face, too. :giggle:


She really tried to keep it in the road!!!

I can still see her teeny-tiny smirk!! :rolleyes:

LOLOLOLOL

:lol::floorlaugh::lol:

borndem
11-05-2011, 12:41 AM
When she first said "I need to take care of my instrument."

My 1st thought was... oh please God, don't let her say it's her body.

I've heard men refer to their "best friend" as their instrument, tool, toy, handle, member....

... but please GAWD... not someone of the same, fair and always appropriate, sex that I am!!!


Now wait just a minnit!!!

I have an instrument, and it's long, skinny, and black with lots of silver bling on it, so don't go off on instruments, Okay, Lady???



:dramaqueen: It's my clarinet, if ya gotta know. Hmmmmfffff!:dramaqueen:

borndem
11-05-2011, 12:43 AM
How cool... He'll be glad to hear that someone said that to me.
A lot of people do not get the Doc Channel. Including me!!!

Here's a link to the blog he writes for the Documentary Channel and photo of him,
if you don't mind me sharing/bragging... while we wait for the verdict. :)


http://blog.documentarychannel.com/post/12301575977/doc-nyc-werner-herzog-says-documentarians-must-be


Now that's a real, "WOW!"

And your Bright Boy is cute, cute, cute!!

You Proud Mom, you!

borndem
11-05-2011, 12:52 AM
It wasn't just that she said it but the expression and hand motion going down her torso was what got me cracking up. She was so proud of her moment up there on the stand. :floorlaugh:


Fo-to op.

Gotta get 'em where you can get 'em, okay????

It's tuff in show biz, folks...

borndem
11-05-2011, 01:02 AM
Thank you, outofstatelawyer....
That's sweet of you to say.

I really AM a proud mom... of all 3 sons.

But I feel guilty now for not bragging about son # 3,
so please bear with me while I post that he works for
Comedy Central... as on-air artist.

TIA! :)

Well, well, well, now it comes out, peace!

No wonder your words are so well-thought and stated. And then you are such a stitch sometimes. Aha!

You are the one who has given them their talent for this.... Now we know!!

Bravo!

borndem
11-05-2011, 01:05 AM
You're Jon Stewart's mom?:floorlaugh:


Or better -- Stephen Colbert!!!!!!!???????????:great:

peace9274
11-05-2011, 01:08 AM
oh bloody ell, DH came home tonight and said the jury was gonna find him not guilty. He said the same thing w/Casey Anthony. I hope he's wrong.

Mel

Hi Melanie... :)

Your post is really scary to me! :eek: :doorhide:
I keep wondering what's the delay with the verdict? :pullhair: :panic:

Did your DH say why he said he knows the verdict will be not guilty? :o :tears:

Is he aware of something we're not getting/seeing; that we forgot? :doh: :noooo:

Or is it just a "man's intuition"? :rolleyes: :slapfight:

borndem
11-05-2011, 01:14 AM
Yes, they can and imo that is why they aren't in any hurry to come to a verdict.

Also several have been jurors in the past and I am sure they know about Fridays brings verdicts and they do not want to seem predictable.

So I imagine it could be sometime Monday afternoon or even Tuesday morning.

Imo, I cant see them letting Murray walk free. If so then they are sending the wrong message that doctors are above the law and what he did or did not do is acceptable to them.

IMO

So let me ask again, if anyone knows....

Who determines how the sentence will be carried out, if it's Guilty?

The Judge?

(That's the way it is in NC, but what do I know?)

If it's Hizzoner, I think he'll give him as much time as the crowded CA prison system will allow -- which would probably be about 6 months active, IMO, just because the prison system is apparently so crowded...from what I've read lately.

I certainly think Judge Pastor -- who is, IMO, unbiased, brilliant, fair and all of the superlatives we have lauded upon him -- does not like that man nor his crime one dayam bit.

borndem
11-05-2011, 01:27 AM
Maybe the jury has made a decision and agreed to ponder it over the weekend??

That's what I am afraid of them doing. If they know it, they know it.

Pondering is not good, IMO. It bothers me a bit.

Maybe they've decided, late in the day, and plan to execute the jury form, sign it and have everything neat & ready first thing Monday morning.

Let's hope it's Guilty tied with a little bow.

<gnaw, gnaw>

peace9274
11-05-2011, 01:31 AM
Well, well, well, now it comes out, peace!

No wonder your words are so well-thought and stated. And then you are such a stitch sometimes. Aha!

You are the one who has given them their talent for this.... Now we know!!

Bravo!

That is such a nice thing to say, borndem! :)

To copy one of your phrases:
It's compliments like yours that keep ME at WS!!!

Well, and your funny jokes and serious comments... with all the added icons!!!


BTW: I decided to add some icons to my last post...
it took me as long to write that one post with icons...
as it took YOU to read others' posts, then write and
post 6 comments... all with icons!!! WOW - You, girl, are fast!!!

I don't think or type fast, so I can't waste time adding icons.
It's bad enough... that by the time I get a comment posted...
the comment to which I was responding, is usually long passed
and several topics ago.

So, I spend a lot of time reading, taking it all in... and then pondering over it!!!
That's because I really am in awe at the amount of knowledge, wisdom, experience,
common sense, education, careers, humor, friendliness, and compassion that is here at WS.

I'm always soooo impressed by all the great (serious, sad & funny) comments I read here.
In the past 8 years, it has never ceased to amaze me how much I learn & how much I laugh
when I come here! Sometimes I cry, too.

legalmania
11-05-2011, 01:32 AM
So let me ask again, if anyone knows....

Who determines how the sentence will be carried out, if it's Guilty?

The Judge?

(That's the way it is in NC, but what do I know?)

If it's Hizzoner, I think he'll give him as much time as the crowded CA prison system will allow -- which would probably be about 6 months active, IMO, just because the prison system is apparently so crowded...from what I've read lately.

I certainly think Judge Pastor -- who is, IMO, unbiased, brilliant, fair and all of the superlatives we have lauded upon him -- does not like that man nor his crime one dayam bit.


Judge Pastor was one of the best judges I have seen in a long time. I don't think he made one bad call during the entire trial. The only thing I didn't agree with him about was the jury being sequestered. I don't know about CA but sometimes they ask the jury for their recommendation for sentencing or the judge makes the decision. I think it has to do with what kind of case it is also.

peace9274
11-05-2011, 01:44 AM
That's what I am afraid of them doing. If they know it, they know it.

Pondering is not good, IMO. It bothers me a bit.

Maybe they've decided, late in the day, and plan to execute the jury form, sign it and have everything neat & ready first thing Monday morning.

Let's hope it's Guilty tied with a little bow.

<gnaw, gnaw>

OK. I get the part... and it's ok... that they MAY know what the verdict is.

And I get... and it's fine.... that they MAY have good reason to wait til Monday to announce it.

What I don't get... and I do not like.... is that my emotions & thoughts are being controlled by 12 other people.

Credence
11-05-2011, 01:55 AM
I completely agree, he should never be allowed to practice medicine again IMO but having much experience with addicts I will add that if propofol is needed to go to sleep where demerol or any other sleep aid is not effective, you must be an extreme addict of many, many meds where the body becomes immune to the standard medications and needs excessive and stronger meds to do the trick. I believe MJ was a severe drug addict be it at the time of his death or before and recovering where his system was still unbalanced. The autopsy released is not necessarily the autopsy findings. Many actors, singers etc... have died this past year and the public was giving the most outrageous reasons I have ever heard while the "said" person had a true past of cocaine any other addictions. I think CM should lose his license for putting money before morals but still on the fence about jail time.

Talk about not being able to sleep .... grrrr LOL

I agree with some of what you said. There was absolutely no evidence that MJ was taking drugs other than what was prescribed for insomnia nor has there been any evidence he was taking other drugs since his trial in 2005.

The pills that were prescribed between Jan-April 2009 still had pills left in them. I believe that once Dr. Murray entered the scene in April, MJ discontinued taking those and just took what Dr. Murray administered. The lorazepam prescription that the defense claims MJ took pills from, was prescribed by Dr. Murray and I wish Walgren had gone into that more because that is a controlled substance and Murray did not have a DEA license for CA. I do agree with you and believe he built up a tolerance to the sleep meds and that is probably why they did not work anymore but I do think he was a recovering addict and was not actively abusing drugs and possibly had not used any since his trial. Most of the doctors investigated were from a list that LE got from the drugs confiscated in 2005. Those doctors did not appear to even have been treating him anymore except Dr. Klein. As Dr. Metzger testified, MJ spent a lot of time in Vegas prior to him moving to CA in October 2008. Dr. Murray was his primary physician and Dr. Klein had recently started reconstructing his face (not just simple botox or restylane as the defense implied). I wish Dr. Klein had been allowed to testify too.

You are not allowed to write a prescription or administer a controlled substance without a license. They should have charged him with illegally writing prescriptions and administering a controlled substance as well or hopefully the DEA is waiting in the wings.

Nurse Lee testified that she gave two complete blood work ups and found no drugs in his system and also testified he just wanted to sleep and felt he would be safe with a doctor monitoring him and wanted propofol. Dr. Murray failed him miserably.

To my knowledge the defense team had a coroner from Texas who was on the potential witness list. I don't know what happened, but he never testified. IMO he probably did not find anything wrong with the autopsy report.

In addition to that the Jacksons had their own private autopsy done and I recall they got their report back much sooner than the one we saw that the state released. I recall IIRC it was LaToya, emphatically stating that the public was going to be very surprised at MJ's autopsy findings and in hindsight, I can understand now what she meant. jmho

Credence
11-05-2011, 02:04 AM
I am worried about the verdict unless they are going to do what OBE suggested and fill out forms and turn it in early Monday. I really thought that if a verdict was not reached by end of day -- that means the jury is not agreement. They asked for no additional exhibits or reading of the transcripts either.

Credence
11-05-2011, 02:27 AM
Conrad Murray Filming Documentary While Waiting For Verdict

"The film crew has been interviewing Dr. Murray all morning, and cameras will be rolling when he is notified by his attorney, Ed Chernoff, that a verdict has been reached. Dr. Murray gave a one hour interview last night, after court ended. Dr. Murray will probably have a camera crew in the car with him when he goes to the courthouse when a verdict is formally announced. The film crew would potentially be filming Dr. Murray's final moments of freedom" a source close to the doctor tells us.

Dr. Murray needs the money from the documentary to pay his lawyers and experts. "Dr. Murray and his lawyers were hoping it would sell for a million bucks, but it looks like the max a network would pay is around 250k

Read more: http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/11/conrad-murray-filming-documentary-while-waiting-verdict

peace9274
11-05-2011, 02:35 AM
Talk about not being able to sleep .... grrrr LOL

I agree with some of what you said. There was absolutely no evidence that MJ was taking drugs other than what was prescribed for insomnia nor has there been any evidence he was taking other drugs since his trial in 2005.

The pills that were prescribed between Jan-April 2009 still had pills left in them. I believe that once Dr. Murray entered the scene in April, MJ discontinued taking those and just took what Dr. Murray administered. The lorazepam prescription that the defense claims MJ took pills from, was prescribed by Dr. Murray and I wish Walgren had gone into that more because that is a controlled substance and Murray did not have a DEA license for CA. I do agree with you and believe he built up a tolerance to the sleep meds and that is probably why they did not work anymore but I do think he was a recovering addict and was not actively abusing drugs and possibly had not used any since his trial. Most of the doctors investigated were from a list that LE got from the drugs confiscated in 2005. Those doctors did not appear to even have been treating him anymore except Dr. Klein. As Dr. Metzger testified, MJ spent a lot of time in Vegas prior to him moving to CA in October 2008. Dr. Murray was his primary physician and Dr. Klein had recently started reconstructing his face (not just simple botox or restylane as the defense implied). I wish Dr. Klein had been allowed to testify too.

You are not allowed to write a prescription or administer a controlled substance without a license. They should have charged him with illegally writing prescriptions and administering a controlled substance as well or hopefully the DEA is waiting in the wings.

Nurse Lee testified that she gave two complete blood work ups and found no drugs in his system and also testified he just wanted to sleep and felt he would be safe with a doctor monitoring him and wanted propofol. Dr. Murray failed him miserably.

To my knowledge the defense team had a coroner from Texas who was on the potential witness list. I don't know what happened, but he never testified. IMO he probably did not find anything wrong with the autopsy report.

In addition to that the Jacksons had their own private autopsy done and I recall they got their report back much sooner than the one we saw that the state released. I recall IIRC it was LaToya, emphatically stating that the public was going to be very surprised at MJ's autopsy findings and in hindsight, I can understand now what she meant. jmho

Thanks for your post, Credence. I agree with everything you said.

In fact, I've been saying the same things...
only you explained it much better! :)


I can't sleep either!!! :(

peace9274
11-05-2011, 02:44 AM
Conrad Murray Filming Documentary While Waiting For Verdict

"The film crew has been interviewing Dr. Murray all morning, and cameras will be rolling when he is notified by his attorney, Ed Chernoff, that a verdict has been reached. Dr. Murray gave a one hour interview last night, after court ended. Dr. Murray will probably have a camera crew in the car with him when he goes to the courthouse when a verdict is formally announced. The film crew would potentially be filming Dr. Murray's final moments of freedom" a source close to the doctor tells us.

Dr. Murray needs the money from the documentary to pay his lawyers and experts. "Dr. Murray and his lawyers were hoping it would sell for a million bucks, but it looks like the max a network would pay is around 250k

Read more: http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2011/11/conrad-murray-filming-documentary-while-waiting-verdict

It's late, I'm tired, can't sleep and my brain ain't working too well....
so I have to think about this a minute. :waitasec:

Why is it that CM is doing this documentary film and making money off it?

Isn't it true... that someone convicted of a crime,
can NOT profit from books, films, articles, interviews, etc?

Or am I missing something? Am I forgetting why the 'Son of Sam Law' would
not pertain to CM, if he is found to be guilty of involuntary manslaughter?



Hmmmm - Maybe I should look it up.
Maybe I'm too lazy and won't. :)

peace9274
11-05-2011, 03:28 AM
Re the Son of Sam Law:

I did look it up, but each state is different.

3 states have never enacted Son of Sam statutes:
New Hampshire (http://www.freedomforum.org/packages/first/SonOfSam/index.htm#NewHampshire), North Carolina (http://www.freedomforum.org/packages/first/SonOfSam/index.htm#NorthCarolina) and Vermont (http://www.freedomforum.org/packages/first/SonOfSam/index.htm#Vermont)


Here is the Law as it pertains to California:

Citation: CAL. CIV. CODE § 2225 (Deering 2001)
History: Enacted in 1987.
CIVIL CODE
DIVISION 3. Obligations
PART 4. Obligations Arising from Particular Transactions
TITLE 8. Involuntary Trusts
Cal Civ Code § 2225 (2001)

§ 2225. Proceeds from sale of story of felony by convicted felon; Involuntary trust

(a)(3)(B) "Profiteer of the felony" means any person who sells or transfers for profit
any memorabilia or other property or thing of the felon, the value of which is enhanced
by the notoriety gained from the commission of the felony for which the felon was convicted.
This subparagraph shall not apply to any media entity reporting on the felon's story or on the
sale of the materials, memorabilia, or other property or thing of the felon. Nor shall it apply to
the sale of the materials, as the term is defined in paragraph (6), where the seller is exercising
his or her first amendment rights. This subparagraph also shall not apply to the sale or transfer
by a profiteer of any other expressive work protected by the First Amendment
unless the sale or transfer is primarily for a commercial or speculative purpose.

(10) (b)(1) All proceeds from the preparation for the purpose of sale, the sale of the rights to, or the sale
of materials that include or are based on the story of a felony for which a convicted felon was convicted,
shall be subject to an involuntary trust for the benefit of the beneficiaries set forth in this section.
That trust shall continue until five years after the time of payment of the proceeds to the felon or five years
after the date of conviction, whichever is later. If an action is filed by a beneficiary to recover his or her interest
in a trust within those time limitations, the trust character of the property shall continue until the conclusion of the
action. At the end of the five-year trust period, any proceeds that remain in trust that have not been claimed by a
beneficiary shall be transferred to the Controller, to be allocated to the Restitution Fund for the payment of claims
pursuant to Section 13969 of the Government Code.

Talina
11-05-2011, 04:13 AM
Re the Son of Sam Law:

I did look it up, but each state is different.

3 states have never enacted Son of Sam statutes:
New Hampshire (http://www.freedomforum.org/packages/first/SonOfSam/index.htm#NewHampshire), North Carolina (http://www.freedomforum.org/packages/first/SonOfSam/index.htm#NorthCarolina) and Vermont (http://www.freedomforum.org/packages/first/SonOfSam/index.htm#Vermont)


Here is the Law as it pertains to California:

Citation: CAL. CIV. CODE § 2225 (Deering 2001)
History: Enacted in 1987.
CIVIL CODE
DIVISION 3. Obligations
PART 4. Obligations Arising from Particular Transactions
TITLE 8. Involuntary Trusts
Cal Civ Code § 2225 (2001)

§ 2225. Proceeds from sale of story of felony by convicted felon; Involuntary trust

(a)(3)(B) "Profiteer of the felony" means any person who sells or transfers for profit
any memorabilia or other property or thing of the felon, the value of which is enhanced
by the notoriety gained from the commission of the felony for which the felon was convicted.
This subparagraph shall not apply to any media entity reporting on the felon's story or on the
sale of the materials, memorabilia, or other property or thing of the felon. Nor shall it apply to
the sale of the materials, as the term is defined in paragraph (6), where the seller is exercising
his or her first amendment rights. This subparagraph also shall not apply to the sale or transfer
by a profiteer of any other expressive work protected by the First Amendment
unless the sale or transfer is primarily for a commercial or speculative purpose.

(10) (b)(1) All proceeds from the preparation for the purpose of sale, the sale of the rights to, or the sale
of materials that include or are based on the story of a felony for which a convicted felon was convicted,
shall be subject to an involuntary trust for the benefit of the beneficiaries set forth in this section.
That trust shall continue until five years after the time of payment of the proceeds to the felon or five years
after the date of conviction, whichever is later. If an action is filed by a beneficiary to recover his or her interest
in a trust within those time limitations, the trust character of the property shall continue until the conclusion of the
action. At the end of the five-year trust period, any proceeds that remain in trust that have not been claimed by a
beneficiary shall be transferred to the Controller, to be allocated to the Restitution Fund for the payment of claims
pursuant to Section 13969 of the Government Code.

So, am I reading this right? He can do his documentary but whatever he gets goes into a trust to be held for 5 yrs in case he has a claim filed against him (eg a civil lawsuit or perhaps even past due child support or other creditors?). If so, his attorneys can kiss any of that good bye IMO.

Talina
11-05-2011, 04:18 AM
Just sitting here thinking about that documentary on Dr. Murray. If they are relying a lot on interviews with him and his attorneys, then it won't be worth a dime. He is not going to be honest and his attorneys aren't going to be honest about what their true feelings or beliefs are IMO.

peace9274
11-05-2011, 04:22 AM
Well, I guess what I thought was right is wrong!

From what I've read, in the past 30 min or so, supporters of the Son of Sam law
say they help crime victims and prevent criminals from profiting from their misdeeds.

Opponents counter that the laws infringe on fundamental First Amendment principles.

Apparently many of the states have changed the Son of Sam Law and it appears to me
to be a case by case thing, with nothing actually written in stone. And that there are ways
in California anyway, to get around the law, allowing that the felon/criminal MAY profit from
book, film, etc, deals relating to the crime.

But on the other hand, there seems to be ways to write and submit a request to the court or Judge,
asking that the criminal MAY NOT profit from any deals made, that mentions or pertains to the crime.
IMO, it looks like it all depends on how good the attorney is and how well written and how convincing
the request is.... that either prevents or to allows the felon/criminal to profit.

After reading about several cases in CA, including, and as in, the Scott Peterson/Sharon Roche Case,
it seems to me that sometimes it just depends on a judge's decision to enforce or not enforce it.
Other times, it has gone before the Supreme Court.

As of right now, I am not so sure at all what I've read or whether it makes sense or
if anything I wrote here does. It's 1:30 am... so I think I'll try to get some sleep.... again. :)

peace9274
11-05-2011, 05:05 AM
Just sitting here thinking about that documentary on Dr. Murray. If they are relying a lot on interviews with him and his attorneys, then it won't be worth a dime. He is not going to be honest and his attorneys aren't going to be honest about what their true feelings or beliefs are IMO.


This film has been called a documentary.
There is a documentary film crew working with CM,
has been when he wasn't in court and will be with him,
after the verdict is read.

From what I know about documentary filmmakers...
there's usually an issue or incident that's very important and sometimes very dear to them. It means so much to them and they're so affected, that they want to make a statement to the world about it. And so they study it, write about it and put it on film... to show the world.

I'm just not getting it... what statement this documentary film, about and with CM, is supposed to say. What point are the filmmakers wanting to make?

I could see CM doing a TV interview and people watching... for free.

But I can not see a lot of people paying $10 to see a 90 minute film about and starring Conrad Murray... and with what message?

peace9274
11-05-2011, 05:07 AM
Just sitting here thinking about that documentary on Dr. Murray. If they are relying a lot on interviews with him and his attorneys, then it won't be worth a dime. He is not going to be honest and his attorneys aren't going to be honest about what their true feelings or beliefs are IMO.


This film has been called a documentary. There has been a film crew working
with CM, when he wasn't in court, and will be with him, after the verdict is read.
(I guess they mean if he doesn't get carted off jail.)

From what I know about documentary filmmakers...
there's usually an issue or incident that's very important and sometimes very dear to them.
It means so much to them, and they're so affected by it, that they want to make a statement
and tell the world about it. They study it, write about it and put it on film... to show the world.

So I'm just not getting it. What important message could this film,
about CM and starring CM, be trying to relay to the public?


Well... I guess I could see CM doing a TV interview and people watching... for free.

But I can not see a lot of people paying $10 to see a 90 minute film about and starring Conrad Murray... and with what message?

(It's now 2:27 am and I mean it this time... I really am off to bed now.)

Melanie
11-05-2011, 05:59 AM
Hi Melanie... :)

Your post is really scary to me! :eek: :doorhide:
I keep wondering what's the delay with the verdict? :pullhair: :panic:

Did your DH say why he said he knows the verdict will be not guilty? :o :tears:

Is he aware of something we're not getting/seeing; that we forgot? :doh: :noooo:

Or is it just a "man's intuition"? :rolleyes: :slapfight:

Actually DH said something that didn't sound like a grunt :) He hasn't followed the case as closely as I have, but no doubt has been listening to HLN in the background. He said that since Michael Jackson asked for the drug, it's not the good doctors fault that he died from it. Kinda like John Belushi and Cathy Smith type of scenario (I had to remind him that Cathy Smith did in fact go to jail).

In short, MJ wouldn't be dead if he didn't beg for the propofol, and therefore, the doctor is innocent.

:waitasec:

Mel

oceanblueeyes
11-05-2011, 09:08 AM
I am worried about the verdict unless they are going to do what OBE suggested and fill out forms and turn it in early Monday. I really thought that if a verdict was not reached by end of day -- that means the jury is not agreement. They asked for no additional exhibits or reading of the transcripts either.

Morning!

Now that I have had time to reflect on the deliberation time (6 hours-8 minutes) I am no longer angst about it.

Even the A jury 'deliberated' longer than that.

I think they want their verdict to represent that they took their time to come to the verdict and doesn't want it to seem they just rushed through it.

With them not asking for any additional exhibits it shows me they all are pretty much in agreement and don't have one or two wanting to look at an exhibit.

Beth said that all the evidence has already been put in the room for them to have except the medical items entered. If they want to see any of those they have to summon the bailiff and the jury will be taken into the courtroom and shown there. I am sure that is to protect them from any bio hazard material.

So I still say it will be sometime Monday and even could be Tuesday morning.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
11-05-2011, 09:15 AM
Actually DH said something that didn't sound like a grunt :) He hasn't followed the case as closely as I have, but no doubt has been listening to HLN in the background. He said that since Michael Jackson asked for the drug, it's not the good doctors fault that he died from it. Kinda like John Belushi and Cathy Smith type of scenario (I had to remind him that Cathy Smith did in fact go to jail).

In short, MJ wouldn't be dead if he didn't beg for the propofol, and therefore, the doctor is innocent.

:waitasec:

Mel

My hubby said the opposite. He said they WILL find this doctor guilty. He said it doesn't matter if the patient begged or didn't beg......it was the doctor who was to say 'no.'

He also doesn't believe MJ begged Murray for anything or injected himself. He thinks Murray is a big liar trying to cover his own a** since he knew from minute one he had killed MJ.

He said the consciousness of guilt in this case is overwhelming.

Yes, poor hubby, he has had to come in and listen to it after he gets in from work each day and this week he was off on vacation the entire week.:floorlaugh:

TxLady2
11-05-2011, 09:48 AM
I can't believe they can go home while in deliberation. Good grief they return on Monday. That is strange.

They often do let them go home, if it's not a murder one case. They can't deliberate around the clock, and there are no rooms with beds in the courthouse. Folks gotta sleep! Not much different than putting them up in a hotel overnight, really, except they aren't under guard.

I heard Vinnie say something yesterday about them needing a bathroom break. When I was on a jury, there was a little restroom right in the jury room, with a toilet and sink. We had to run the water to disguise the sound of us actually using the toilet! Embarassing. And they didn't let us go outside, so we didn't get smoke breaks. But we were told that we could stop at 5 p.m., go home and come back the next morning. We chose to stay and IIRC, we reached a unanimous decision by about 5:45.

SATA
11-05-2011, 10:29 AM
This film has been called a documentary. There has been a film crew working
with CM, when he wasn't in court, and will be with him, after the verdict is read.
(I guess they mean if he doesn't get carted off jail.)

From what I know about documentary filmmakers...
there's usually an issue or incident that's very important and sometimes very dear to them.
It means so much to them, and they're so affected by it, that they want to make a statement
and tell the world about it. They study it, write about it and put it on film... to show the world.

So I'm just not getting it. What important message could this film,
about CM and starring CM, be trying to relay to the public?


Well... I guess I could see CM doing a TV interview and people watching... for free.

But I can not see a lot of people paying $10 to see a 90 minute film about and starring Conrad Murray... and with what message?

(It's now 2:27 am and I mean it this time... I really am off to bed now.)

I wouldn´t even watch/listen to an interview with Murray for free. He is one creepy charachter and I itch just looking at him, and he sounds like a snake when he talks. I can´t stand the fact that he blames EVERYONE but himself. He is a sociopath with no conscience.
I can never get the picture out of my mind of him recording a heavily sedated Michael Jackson. How creepy is that?! Why did he do it?
It goes without saying that I hope for a guilty verdict - it´s a hard wait. I can´t imagine how it is for the Jacksons.

oceanblueeyes
11-05-2011, 10:44 AM
I wouldn´t even watch/listen to an interview with Murray for free. He is one creepy charachter and I itch just looking at him, and he sounds like a snake when he talks. I can´t stand the fact that he blames EVERYONE but himself. He is a sociopath with no conscience.
I can never get the picture out of my mind of him recording a heavily sedated Michael Jackson. How creepy is that?! Why did he do it?
It goes without saying that I hope for a guilty verdict - it´s a hard wait. I can´t imagine how it is for the Jacksons.

Do you think he did that for the documentary he is trying to sell?

There is something sinister about it, imo and such an invasion of privacy.

The French producers started filming him right after he was charged.

I do see a very self centered man who is capable of throwing anyone and everyone under the bus in order to make himself 'appear' better and blameless. That is the trait of a narcissist and sociopath.

Look how he only cries when something glowy is said about HIM and is emotionless and stone faced when others talked about the pain, loss and anguish MJs family has endured.:furious:

borndem
11-05-2011, 10:49 AM
Transferred from Closing Arguments -Reply from legalmania to borndem -

MJ got to go to state fairs, baseball games and all the other things kids do only his brothers and him were the opening act. I don't think his father even thought about it. He would let his 6 yr old work in a bar until 2 or 3 am. He credits himself for the Jackson's success. IMO they were successful because they are very talented kids. Joe worked them way to hard for minors, imo. I think his father can thank himself for MJ's drug abuse. I'll never forget seeing MJ do the moonwalk for the very first time, can't remember the show but seeing him slide across the stage backwards so gracefully will stay in my mind forever.

Thanks, legal - You make good points about little MJ from his angle/view of the world, and you're so right!

Yes, he got to go to all those County/State Fairs, he sure did... Just like the "Five-Legged Turtle," "The Woman with Feet So Big That She Never Wore Shoes in Her Entire Life," and "The Sweating Baby." But I won't say more on that angle.

And I feel sure that he got all the free Pepsi or Dr. Pepper he wanted from those bars where the Five guys performed. What more could a 2nd Grader want???

And like you, I think his dad is the source of so much of his later sadness, alone-ness, and dependency -- on drugs, love, security, and just plain getting along from day to day. I do wonder, too, how much his mother had to do with things. Surely she knew that her Michael was a special child.

I hope to be better informed about this aspect of MJ's life after I read a bio of him that I have ordered.

Thanks for helping me remind us all that a privileged life on the "high side of the stage" isn't always so. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

Oldsoul2
11-05-2011, 10:49 AM
I wouldn´t even watch/listen to an interview with Murray for free. He is one creepy charachter and I itch just looking at him, and he sounds like a snake when he talks. I can´t stand the fact that he blames EVERYONE but himself. He is a sociopath with no conscience.
I can never get the picture out of my mind of him recording a heavily sedated Michael Jackson. How creepy is that?! Why did he do it?
It goes without saying that I hope for a guilty verdict - it´s a hard wait. I can´t imagine how it is for the Jacksons.

i agree he is creepy but the issue im having is like the anthony case and so many others when we can logically and clearly see that a person is guilty theres that resonable doubt pest that prevents jurors from coming back with a guilty verdict. That means absolute proof that cm did in fact administer the final lethal dose that killed mj. The one thing that is different here is that in this trial at least the jurors are looking at the evidence and considering it diligently. The pinellas 12 were pathetic.

SATA
11-05-2011, 10:56 AM
Do you think he did that for the documentary he is trying to sell?

There is something sinister about it, imo and such an invasion of privacy.

The French producers started filming him right after he was charged.

I do see a very self centered man who is capable of throwing anyone and everyone under the bus in order to make himself 'appear' better and blameless. That is the trait of a narcissist and sociopath.

Look how he only cries when something glowy is said about HIM and is emotionless and stone faced when others talked about the pain, loss and anguish MJs family has endured.:furious:


Why he did it?
To possibly sell it to the highest bidder in the press when he would no longer be Michael Jackson´s employee.
To blackmail Michael.
To play for his buddies and buddettes at the strip joint he likes to hang out in.
To document for AEG that he made Michael sleep (they DID pay him a lot of money, what did they think they were paying him for doing? This massive salary!)
I really don´t know, but creepy it is!

SATA
11-05-2011, 11:02 AM
i agree he is creepy but the issue im having is like the anthony case and so many others when we can logically and clearly see that a person is guilty theres that resonable doubt pest that prevents jurors from coming back with a guilty verdict. That means absolute proof that cm did in fact administer the final lethal dose that killed mj. The one thing that is different here is that in this trial at least the jurors are looking at the evidence and considering it diligently. The pinellas 12 were pathetic.


Well, yes it is hard to prove that Murray injected the damned stuff that killed Michael. But his overall reckless behaviour, his not telling the paramedics and the doctors at UCLA that Michael was on Propofol, and his 20 minute delay calling 911 (well, he didn´t call at all, Alberto Alvarez did), those things are there for all to see. And I think there should be no reasonable doubt there.

Credence
11-05-2011, 11:14 AM
So, am I reading this right? He can do his documentary but whatever he gets goes into a trust to be held for 5 yrs in case he has a claim filed against him (eg a civil lawsuit or perhaps even past due child support or other creditors?). If so, his attorneys can kiss any of that good bye IMO.

Good morning. :)

Looking at IMDb it appears this documentary will be produced in the UK. Wonder if he got an advance on it and has the monies in an offshore account? I have no doubt he has more recordings like the one presented in court that he recorded too. I wonder if MJ had threatened to fire him and he did that for "insurance" or worse, possibly blackmail? Whatever reason he made those tapes was not good IMO.

Untitled Dr. Conrad Murray Documentary (2010)

Production Notes from IMDbPro
Status: Unknown |
Updated: 15 February 2011

Storyline
A documentary on the doctor who was placed under investigation in the wake of Michael Jackson's death.

Details
Country:
UK
Language:
English
Filming Locations:
Houston, Texas, USA See more »

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1572197/

Credence
11-05-2011, 11:16 AM
Well, yes it is hard to prove that Murray injected the damned stuff that killed Michael. But his overall reckless behaviour, his not telling the paramedics and the doctors at UCLA that Michael was on Propofol, and his 20 minute delay calling 911 (well, he didn´t call at all, Alberto Alvarez did), those things are there for all to see. And I think there should be no reasonable doubt there.

If Dr. Murray had followed protocol; MJ would not have been able to inject it (not that I believe that for 1 second). He abandoned his only patient.

It also does not make sense that MJ only had 50mgs of propofol (25 by Murray and even if 25 by himself) the blood levels indicate 40x more so if the jury uses common sense based on the science they will understand it had to be a drip and CM got rid of the tubing.

As much as I believe Fleak made a huge error in not photographing that bottle in the bag; I sure do not believe there was any conspiracy between she and AA. Again if common sense is applied, I can understand why AA did not mention it during his brief conversation with LE on the day MJ died. He probably thought nothing of it and as he said it wasn't until he watched CNN that he realized it had any significance and I really do believe that.

In addition to that AA could have collected $500,000 for his story and he did not sell it although seems to me he could have used that money. For Chernoff to imply that he testified to sell his story was ludicrous. Any money he would have received would have been BEFORE the trial. There is NO story to tell since he told it in his testimony.

oceanblueeyes
11-05-2011, 11:25 AM
Well, yes it is hard to prove that Murray injected the damned stuff that killed Michael. But his overall reckless behaviour, his not telling the paramedics and the doctors at UCLA that Michael was on Propofol, and his 20 minute delay calling 911 (well, he didn´t call at all, Alberto Alvarez did), those things are there for all to see. And I think there should be no reasonable doubt there.

I think it has been proven through circumstantial evidence which Judge Pastor told this jury carries just as much weight as direct evidence.

White's scenario just doesn't make logical sense. If MJ only injected 25 mgs more of propofol it would not have been enough to kill him. Nor would MJs femoral blood show levels 40 times higher than the initial 25 mgs Murray said he gave him.

So it is very reasonable to link together circumstantially that Murray did as he had done for 2 months straight and first gave him a bolus and then a drip. That would explain why there is a torn rubber stopper where a spike was used in the propofol bottle that only had CMs sole print on it. That would also explain the slit saline bag.

And we all saw when Dr. Shafer showed the jury how the propofol would work by placing it inside the slit bag and it is obvious that it wasnt a laborious task but actually quite simple to do.

IMO

Credence
11-05-2011, 11:27 AM
That's what I am afraid of them doing. If they know it, they know it.

Pondering is not good, IMO. It bothers me a bit.

Maybe they've decided, late in the day, and plan to execute the jury form, sign it and have everything neat & ready first thing Monday morning.

Let's hope it's Guilty tied with a little bow.

<gnaw, gnaw>

I too am really worried about this verdict now. I thought sure they would render a unanimous guilty by end of day Friday. Hopefully they delayed it just to tie up loose ends on Monday as you say. If not, I fear there may be some dissension in that jury room and it only takes one............

oceanblueeyes
11-05-2011, 11:33 AM
One of the spectators outside court Friday made a good point.

'Doctors are to heal......not kill"

Isabelle
11-05-2011, 11:37 AM
Bet any money that Conrad has more audio recordings of Michael and pics that he is selling! Animal!

Isabelle
11-05-2011, 11:39 AM
If Dr. Murray had followed protocol; MJ would not have been able to inject it (not that I believe that for 1 second). He abandoned his only patient.

It also does not make sense that MJ only had 50mgs of propofol (25 by Murray and even if 25 by himself) the blood levels indicate 40x more so if the jury uses common sense based on the science they will understand it had to be a drip and CM got rid of the tubing.

As much as I believe Fleak made a huge error in not photographing that bottle in the bag; I sure do not believe there was any conspiracy between she and AA. Again if common sense is applied, I can understand why AA did not mention it during his brief conversation with LE on the day MJ died. He probably thought nothing of it and as he said it wasn't until he watched CNN that he realized it had any significance and I really do believe that.

In addition to that AA could have collected $500,000 for his story and he did not sell it although seems to me he could have used that money. For Chernoff to imply that he testified to sell his story was ludicrous. Any money he would have received would have been BEFORE the trial. There is NO story to tell since he told it in his testimony.

I wouldn't blame AA if he decided to sell his interview after this trial. After all, Murray destroyed his life too.

Credence
11-05-2011, 11:43 AM
I wouldn't blame AA if he decided to sell his interview after this trial. After all, Murray destroyed his life too.

I don't either but doubt anyone will be paying "big bucks" for it now. He already told his story through his testimony for free.

Credence
11-05-2011, 11:47 AM
Peace -- I do not blame you for bragging about your sons. I am sure you are proud of them as I would be. :)

SATA
11-05-2011, 11:50 AM
Bet any money that Conrad has more audio recordings of Michael and pics that he is selling! Animal!


He probably does, since he has this recording. It is devastating, and yes, animal! WHY did Michael trust the most horrible people?!

Velouria
11-05-2011, 12:22 PM
I wouldn´t even watch/listen to an interview with Murray for free. He is one creepy charachter and I itch just looking at him, and he sounds like a snake when he talks. I can´t stand the fact that he blames EVERYONE but himself. He is a sociopath with no conscience.
I can never get the picture out of my mind of him recording a heavily sedated Michael Jackson. How creepy is that?! Why did he do it?
It goes without saying that I hope for a guilty verdict - it´s a hard wait. I can´t imagine how it is for the Jacksons.

I agree SATA, and speaking of itching, I can't stand looking at him constantly scratching his head whenever he's on camera. Ick!

Good morning. :)

Looking at IMDb it appears this documentary will be produced in the UK. Wonder if he got an advance on it and has the monies in an offshore account? I have no doubt he has more recordings like the one presented in court that he recorded too. I wonder if MJ had threatened to fire him and he did that for "insurance" or worse, possibly blackmail? Whatever reason he made those tapes was not good IMO.

Untitled Dr. Conrad Murray Documentary (2010)

Production Notes from IMDbPro
Status: Unknown |
Updated: 15 February 2011

Storyline
A documentary on the doctor who was placed under investigation in the wake of Michael Jackson's death.

Details
Country:
UK
Language:
English
Filming Locations:
Houston, Texas, USA See more »

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1572197/

So, the British are making a documentary about Conrad Murray? This reminds me of the French documentary team that followed Michael Peterson during his murder trial a few years back. You can still occasionally catch "The Staircase" on the Sundance Channel. While it's clearly done from the viewpoint of the defense, you still get a real insight into the prosecution as well. I only hope the verdict is the same in Murray's case as it was in Peterson's. :)

SATA
11-05-2011, 12:40 PM
Velouria:
I agree SATA, and speaking of itching, I can't stand looking at him constantly scratching his head whenever he's on camera. Ick!

He alsways has his hands in his face and head, yea, scratching (yukk), but I think it looks like he wants to pick his nose - he is constantly touching it.
I hope he gets to spend some time behind bars. Plenty of time for him to sit in his cell picking his nose.

Credence
11-05-2011, 12:54 PM
Velouria:
I agree SATA, and speaking of itching, I can't stand looking at him constantly scratching his head whenever he's on camera. Ick!

He alsways has his hands in his face and head, yea, scratching (yukk), but I think it looks like he wants to pick his nose - he is constantly touching it.
I hope he gets to spend some time behind bars. Plenty of time for him to sit in his cell picking his nose.

Guess you missed him picking his nose and then looking at it too. I commented on it few times during this trial. I cannot imagine that man touching me with one finger never mind shaking his hand. Who knows what is in his hands. EWWW!!!!:gasp:

Murphismo
11-05-2011, 01:11 PM
every time I see "CM" I think of Cheny Mason, that guy makes me itch AND want to take a shower. However, after the Casey trial, my bet is on NG. I hate to say it......... I think if he was found G, we'd of heard of it on Friday.....

SATA
11-05-2011, 01:12 PM
Guess you missed him picking his nose and then looking at it too. I commented on it few times during this trial. I cannot imagine that man touching me with one finger never mind shaking his hand. Who knows what is in his hands. EWWW!!!!:gasp:

I missed that (fortunately), but my hunch was right then. I do happen to think that it shows a lot about a grown up person´s charchter that they pick their nose in public.
I was in Greece once with my then boyfriend in a little hotel. There was this woman from my country too. There were Greek men galore visiting her room - one after the other. She was married, but travelled alone. It was insane how many med visited her!
One day we were waiting for a boat, and to kill time, we played cards. While we were playing, she started picking her nose and EATING the buggers!!! :banghead: Can you believe it!!! This ugly little woman eating buggers (and touching the playing cards)! Besides, she cheated in the card game. Murray´s sister in spirit.... I bet he eats them too.

peace9274
11-05-2011, 01:38 PM
I missed that (fortunately), but my hunch was right then. I do happen to think that it shows a lot about a grown up person´s charchter that they pick their nose in public.
I was in Greece once with my then boyfriend in a little hotel. There was this woman from my country too. There were Greek men galore visiting her room - one after the other. She was married, but travelled alone. It was insane how many med visited her!
One day we were waiting for a boat, and to kill time, we played cards. While we were playing, she started picking her nose and EATING the buggers!!! :banghead: Can you believe it!!! This ugly little woman eating buggers (and touching the playing cards)! Besides, she cheated in the card game. Murray´s sister in spirit.... I bet he eats them too.

Thanks for sharing with us,SATA...
the adventures on your trip to Greece.

I was hesitant to click the "thanks" after your lovely details. :yuck:

SATA
11-05-2011, 01:58 PM
Thanks for sharing with us,SATA...
the adventures on your trip to Greece.

I was hesitant to click the "thanks" after your lovely details. :yuck:


LOL, I wish I had never seen this woman and really just want to forget all about her. Sometimes I get reminded of her though... She was so disgusting!!! :panic:

borndem
11-05-2011, 02:22 PM
How cool... He'll be glad to hear that someone said that to me.
A lot of people do not get the Doc Channel. Including me!!!

Here's a link to the blog he writes for the Documentary Channel and photo of him,
if you don't mind me sharing/bragging... while we wait for the verdict. :)


http://blog.documentarychannel.com/post/12301575977/doc-nyc-werner-herzog-says-documentarians-must-be


Hi, peace -

You might tell your son that I wrote the feature and the date down last night in my "little blue book" so that I can watch it. It does sound like something I would like to see. So, his blog got to this person in North Carolina -- and we have that channel! (Uh, Mom, you should get it, too, but that's NOMB, really....http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon11.gif )

I'm looking forward to seeing it. I googled Burkett last night, too, whose name sounded familiar -- and it was. Yeah, I wanna see it. And I don't keep up with many blogs, I just don't have the time, but I've got his in my book. Thanks for the tip....http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fingers crossed for another son -- that Jackson one -- poor Katherine. Her special boy...http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon8.gif

peace9274
11-05-2011, 03:20 PM
Hi, peace -

You might tell your son that I wrote the feature and the date down last night in my "little blue book" so that I can watch it. It does sound like something I would like to see. So, his blog got to this person in North Carolina -- and we have that channel! (Uh, Mom, you should get it, too, but that's NOMB, really....http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon11.gif )

I'm looking forward to seeing it. I googled Burkett last night, too, whose name sounded familiar -- and it was. Yeah, I wanna see it. And I don't keep up with many blogs, I just don't have the time, but I've got his in my book. Thanks for the tip....http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

Fingers crossed for another son -- that Jackson one -- poor Katherine. Her special boy...http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon8.gif


Thank you, borndem!!! :)

I just emailed your comments to my son. He'll definitely appreciate them!
He's spending a lot of time at a Documentary Film Festival in NYC this week-end,
(DOC NYC) viewing films, interviewing actors & producers, etc.

Christopher's new wife, Jen, does volunteer work at the Film Festivals where ever he attends.

(.... and now, since I mentioned Jennifer.... I have put in a plug for her brother's S/O, Vedette Lim,
who has a mini role on True Blood.. and just joined the cast on Grey's Anatomy, as Dr Polly Preston!)
http://www.tvfanatic.com/2011/10/vedette-lim-to-guest-star-on-greys-anatomy/


I don't have the Documentary Channel because my cable company doesn't carry it. GRRRRRRR :banghead:

borndem
11-05-2011, 04:52 PM
That is such a nice thing to say, borndem! :)

To copy one of your phrases:
It's compliments like yours that keep ME at WS!!!

Well, and your funny jokes and serious comments... with all the added icons!!!


BTW: I decided to add some icons to my last post...
it took me as long to write that one post with icons...
as it took YOU to read others' posts, then write and
post 6 comments... all with icons!!! WOW - You, girl, are fast!!!

I don't think or type fast, so I can't waste time adding icons.
It's bad enough... that by the time I get a comment posted...
the comment to which I was responding, is usually long passed
and several topics ago.

So, I spend a lot of time reading, taking it all in... and then pondering over it!!!
That's because I really am in awe at the amount of knowledge, wisdom, experience,
common sense, education, careers, humor, friendliness, and compassion that is here at WS.

I'm always soooo impressed by all the great (serious, sad & funny) comments I read here.
In the past 8 years, it has never ceased to amaze me how much I learn & how much I laugh
when I come here! Sometimes I cry, too.


Thanks back atcha, peace! Yeah, we human beings are interesting... We post on these WS forums; we have those posters whom we feel that we "know" pretty well -- at least in this kind of environment -- and we worry when xxxxxxx doesn't post for a few days.... or maybe, sometimes, we might be glad yyyyyyy doesn't post. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif

It's an interesting human dynamic we have together with this thing of ours (no, I'm not a recruiter for La Cosa Nostra -- I'm one of those blond, stubborn and frugal Scotch Irish). We're anonymous, but then, no, we're not! We've seen some of us in the corner over there, "on time out" if we've been on WS for any length of time; I know one great poster who was banned, so we do have that boomerang Karma keeping us honest and not raunchy, mean-spirited, or just one who should go to a "lesser" forum. Come to think of it, I haven't seen anything happen like that on here in quite a while <fingers crossed for all of us>.

And I have really grown very possessive about THIS particular group of WS'ersand this case. I think it is because everyone is smart, funny, light, heavy, serious-minded, definitely concerned with justice being done, and just a bunch (albeit small, which I prefer) of good folks.

I hope, hope, hope, in a couple of days or less <gnaw gnaw> that we can all "join hands" in a victory circle for Michael, his now fatherless children, the rest of his family, the people of California, McSteamy & Brazil, with the paragon who is Judge Pastor looking on. Even those who are still not convinced or who are "fencin' it" will join in with us.

Oh, this case has now obviously got me a bit maudlin. I'm invested. So be it.

And I can't imagine how Walgren is avoiding just exploding right about now.

please pardon borndem's combo Praise the Gang and Pathetic Pity Party, but there it is. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gifhttp://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon11.gifhttp://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon6.gif

Talina
11-05-2011, 04:57 PM
I, too, have really enjoyed the time spent with all of you posting and sharing our thoughts on this trial. It has been a pleasure to be with such a good group of people and even when some have disagreed on anything, it has been done with well thought out posts and respect. Refreshing!!!

:)

borndem
11-05-2011, 05:29 PM
It's late, I'm tired, can't sleep and my brain ain't working too well....
so I have to think about this a minute. :waitasec:

Why is it that CM is doing this documentary film and making money off it?

Isn't it true... that someone convicted of a crime,
can NOT profit from books, films, articles, interviews, etc?

Or am I missing something? Am I forgetting why the 'Son of Sam Law' would
not pertain to CM, if he is found to be guilty of involuntary manslaughter?



Hmmmm - Maybe I should look it up.
Maybe I'm too lazy and won't. :)


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif
Well, all I can speak to is how it is in, er, ah, oh yes, North Cackalacky. I do a lot of Sleuthing there, and I will look up the law in the NC General Statutes in a heartbeat. In NC, the most effective and probably the quickest & easiest, is to bring a Wrongful Death civil suit against a party. I have seen a few, and most have, as a part of the judgement, a claim against future earnings, and money made from books, salary, or speaking engagements, radio shows, strip joints (not really, but maybe if the shoe fits), or any source of future earnings. Many sources are actually specifed and not at all vague.

I have read where MJ's dad is bringing a WD suit against CM, but it is still in process. I'm not aware of another WD suit, but I am bit surprised that one has not already been done. (The limitation in NC on a WD is either one or two years from the date of death, IIRC -- I'd look it up, but it is not germane here....)

I don't know whether you can specify that particular in a criminal suit in CA as a part of penalty/judgment. Possibly in CA, a criminal sentence might impose a fine, but I don't know if that is possible, and the keeping-up with it would be a clerical and legal nightmare, I would think.

I guess CM :liar: is just trying to make hay while the sun still shines. :rubberducky:

And he's just such a charmer, ya know.

It's sure to be a hit. <gag> :turkey:

peace9274
11-05-2011, 05:42 PM
I, too, have really enjoyed the time spent with all of you posting and sharing our thoughts on this trial. It has been a pleasure to be with such a good group of people and even when some have disagreed on anything, it has been done with well thought out posts and respect. Refreshing!!!

:)

I agree... It HAS been a great group! :)
At first I wondered why there weren't many WSers on
this forum and it seemed like there was a lack of interest.

But, as it turned out, it was a perfect size group.
Most comments were short and were easy and quick to read and follow...
(well, except when... I admit it.. I got long winded, wrote some long posts and some were even off topic.) :offtopic: :tmi: :saythat:

And yes, it HAS been fun and very refreshing.
So, hopefully we'll have that group hug, hand-holding circle,
that borndem suggested... and I won't say goodbye.
I'll just see you all on another case. :seeya:

In fact, I often do see some of you at other forums now!

dunlurken
11-05-2011, 05:50 PM
It's me, the fence sitter. If I had to vote, I would vote guilty with an accomplice, aka MJ (or whomever). However, based on the evidence I saw, I believe some jurors will come back NG, so IMO, the jury will hang and CM will walk.

I'm guessing a verdict will be reached on Wednesday because I don't think they are unanimous at this point.

octobermoon
11-05-2011, 06:01 PM
I still say Tuesday. Hopefully in the am. I read about the make up of this jury and the fact that many have served before makes me think they are going about this methodically. Plus the one who has bio/med background is probably helping the others with certain "charts/graphs" LOL! And the fact that the uproar over the Caylee injustice is still fresh. So I think they will do their job will due dilligence. I still have faith. :)

octobermoon
11-05-2011, 06:12 PM
For our nurses a quick question-

Do y'all think that many Docs are so relient on nurses to do most of the work, I am not phrasing that well, but most (imo) seem so distant from the actual care that CM didn't really know what was involved when he agreed to the job. Oh shoot, I am not making my self clear. IYKWIM???? (one of my best run-on sentences :D that went nowhere!)

peace9274
11-05-2011, 06:50 PM
For our nurses a quick question-

Do y'all think that many Docs are so relient on nurses to do most of the work, I am not phrasing that well, but most (imo) seem so distant from the actual care that CM didn't really know what was involved when he agreed to the job. Oh shoot, I am not making my self clear. IYKWIM???? (one of my best run-on sentences :D that went nowhere!)

I definitely think doctors in the hospital and in clinics and at the their offices DO rely on and
expect the nurses to do as much as they (the docs!) can get away with... and that means
how much a nurse actually knows how to do, what duties are within her boundries and how
much she'll actually let the docs "push stuff" onto her.

I've worked in regular general hospitals and in teaching hospitals... and in clinics. In the teaching
hospitals it's easier to say to the interns & residents, "No, you need the practice." LOL But it really
does depend on the doctor. Depends on how much he feels some procedures are beneath him to do!

But, yes I do understand why CM probably wasn't that familiar with setting up an IV and why he didn't
have certain equipment... which is absolutely no excuse... (if he didn't know something or how to do it,
then he should've had a nurse or assistant with him who did know.)

When I was learning about IVs and setting them up... there was no such thing as an IV pump to regulate
the flow. There were no alarms (except in ICU) that told us a patient had stopped breathing or his heart
stopped. There were no machines that told us when the IV ran out or had infiltrated.
There were no O2 OX machines at all. We didn't even think to measure it.

So if CM relied on his office staff and the hospital nurses to set up for procedures and actually performed
some of them... (and they prolly ordered the supplies, also)... then yes, he probably wasn't on top of the
newest ways to monitor, set up & perform a lot of the things he did/didn't do for MJ... including the IVs.
I'm sure he knew the basics and was hoping that that was all he had to know to keep MJ safe & alive!!

Nurses see a lot of different docs do procedures and they see what works, what doesn't, and they can
tell how experienced a doc is, by the way he proforms procedures. There are many times that we've had
to show or tell a doc how to do a procedure or what works best, when & if he's having trouble.

octobermoon
11-05-2011, 06:59 PM
Thank you Peace. In my exeperience I trust nurses with my care, symptoms, etc more than some docs. I have had. The nurses seemed more hands on and generally not so full of themselves. Sorry if I have offended any docs here. Not my intention. :)

But when you see the pics of MJ's room with urine jugs, and empty propofol bottles and lack of hygene, it makes me wonder how much CM relied on others.

oceanblueeyes
11-05-2011, 07:01 PM
I think I have enjoyed the posters here:blowkiss: more than any other case I have discussed and lawd knows that has been many many cases.:floorlaugh:

Not a day goes by that I don't come here first thing to see what my poster buddies have to say.

I find all of you extremely sharp, compelling, interesting, intelligent and the humor is just the thing we have needed at times.

I am not the least bit angst about the jury just deliberating 6 hours and 8 minutes before going home. I do not feel they are at any impasse. Imo, they are together and that is why they have asked no questions of the court except that they wanted highlighters.

I think we have just become an instant gratification type of society and think everything must be done lightning quick but in the real world jury deliberations can go on for days and a verdict be rendered.

I didn't even expect a verdict Friday. I have been a juror five times (4 criminal-1 civil) and it takes time to even begin the process of deliberating. First a foreman has to be chosen and that may take time to decide which one the group thinks is best and why. Since there are 9 jurors who have been jurors before then picking the foreperson may be even more involved since so many have jury experience.

Then the jury may have a round table discussion where each one speaks their opinion about the case. That can be lengthy too since all 12 people join in and no time is allotted for each one. Some juries take a vote by writing their opinon down on a piece of paper anonymously and the foreperson will put them in piles for G, NG or undecided and then give the results to the group.

Then they must find the evidence that correlates with their evidence log if they are wanting to look at particular pieces of evidence. That too takes time. It is usually just stacked up in no particular order in the jury room.

So 6 hours and 8 minutes is a very short time for a very astute jury like all the court reporters have said this jury is. They want it known that they all looked at the evidence and weighed it carefully to come to their decision and they should do that.

I still say we may see a verdict by Monday afternoon or sometime Tuesday.

IMO

peace9274
11-05-2011, 07:04 PM
Thank you Peace. In my exeperience I trust nurses with my care, symptoms, etc more than some docs. I have had. The nurses seemed more hands on and generally not so full of themselves. Sorry if I have offended any docs here. Not my intention. :)

But when you see the pics of MJ's room with urine jugs, and empty propofol bottles and lack of hygene, it makes me wonder how much CM relied on others.


Most of my doctors have been female docs or nurse practitioners.
They just seem to "get it" and know what's important and they have
more compassion when relating to a patient... especially OB/GYNs.

My new dentist here in AZ, is a lady dentist and I'm just soooo amazed at the
difference between her technique and all the other (male) dentists I've had in the past.
I can honestly say I haven't had any pain or discomfort with her.

Melanie
11-05-2011, 07:11 PM
They often do let them go home, if it's not a murder one case. They can't deliberate around the clock, and there are no rooms with beds in the courthouse. Folks gotta sleep! Not much different than putting them up in a hotel overnight, really, except they aren't under guard.

I heard Vinnie say something yesterday about them needing a bathroom break. When I was on a jury, there was a little restroom right in the jury room, with a toilet and sink. We had to run the water to disguise the sound of us actually using the toilet! Embarassing. And they didn't let us go outside, so we didn't get smoke breaks. But we were told that we could stop at 5 p.m., go home and come back the next morning. We chose to stay and IIRC, we reached a unanimous decision by about 5:45.

We had the same set up when I was on jury duty. My gawd, the toilet was about 5 feet from the table and the only thing seperating us was a thin door. I refused to drink and used the potty when we went to lunch (we were allowed to go to the cafeteria).

And we did something similar to what I "believe" the jury to be doing. They could very well have come to a decision on Friday but wanted a good think about it over the weekend. In my case, we all decided to sleep on it before telling the bailiff that we reached a verdict. It's really hard knowing you're gonna possibly send someone to jail and I certainly didn't want to rush the process.

MOO

Mel

octobermoon
11-05-2011, 07:15 PM
Most of my doctors have been female docs or nurse practitioners.
They just seem to "get it" and know what's important and they have
more compassion when relating to a patient... especially OB/GYNs.

My new dentist here in AZ, is a lady dentist and I'm just soooo amazed at the
difference between her technique and all the other (male) dentists I've had in the past.
I can honestly say I haven't had any pain or discomfort with her.

We went to our Nurse practitoner after my husband lost insurance and was waiting for disability/medicare to kick in. He had ALS and she would consult with the Neuro to treat him. She was so compassionate. Plus she was tiny but tough when he was giving me fits. ;) All I had to do was call her and she would tell me to get his a** in on the next day for a "talk" :D

peace9274
11-05-2011, 07:19 PM
I think I have enjoyed the posters here:blowkiss: more than any other case I have discussed and lawd knows that has been many many cases.:floorlaugh:

Not a day goes by that I don't come here first thing to see what my poster buddies have to say.

I find all of you extremely sharp, compelling, interesting, intelligent and the humor is just the thing we have needed at times.

I am not the least bit angst about the jury just deliberating 6 hours and 8 minutes before going home. I do not feel they are at any impasse. Imo, they are together and that is why they have asked no questions of the court except that they wanted highlighters.

I think we have just become an instant gratification type of society and think everything must be done lightning quick but in the real world jury deliberations can go on for days and a verdict be rendered.

I didn't even expect a verdict Friday. I have been a juror five times (4 criminal-1 civil) and it takes time to even begin the process of deliberating. First a foreman has to be chosen and that may take time to decide which one the group thinks is best and why. Since there are 9 jurors who have been jurors before then picking the foreperson may be even more involved since so many have jury experience.

Then the jury may have a round table discussion where each one speaks their opinion about the case. That can be lengthy too since all 12 people join in and no time is allotted for each one. Some juries take a vote by writing their opinon down on a piece of paper anonymously and the foreperson will put them in piles for G, NG or undecided and then give the results to the group.

Then they must find the evidence that correlates with their evidence log if they are wanting to look at particular pieces of evidence. That too takes time. It is usually just stacked up in no particular order in the jury room.

So 6 hours and 8 minutes is a very short time for a very astute jury like all the court reporters have said this jury is. They want it known that they all looked at the evidence and weighed it carefully to come to their decision and they should do that.

I still say we may see a verdict by Monday afternoon or sometime Tuesday.

IMO


Thanks for your explanation of what jurors do in deliberation and why it takes as long as it does.
I've never been a juror, so I appreciate every bit of info and everyone's opinions re the time frame.

LOL - I just noticed when your join date is, oceanblueeyes...
there aren't that many who've been here longer than I have...
and I see you're one of them! :)

You were here when we lost one of most popular mods, Tybee. That was sure a shock.
Tricia keeps the "In Remembrance of Our Beloved Tybee" link with the photo of Tybee &
her granddaughter, up on the Home page. For those of you who weren't here then, Tybee
lived on Tybee Island off GA coast, IIRC. She got up early every morning, walked a block or
so to the beach and went for a swim in the ocean... or it may have been a small inlet of the ocean.

But, one morning, for some reason, her poor little body was found floating in the water.
It was very sad here for quite awhile. I miss her. A lot!

octobermoon
11-05-2011, 07:26 PM
I have been a lurker since 2000, before Tricia owned this place. I remember when Tybee went to a better place. Bless her and her family.

:cry::grouphug::cry:

peace9274
11-05-2011, 07:32 PM
I have been a lurker since 2000, before Tricia owned this place. I remember when Tybee went to a better place. Bless her and her family.

:cry::grouphug::cry:

I remember when Tricia and someone else took over, but can't remember who started WS nor who was with Tricia when she took over.

If I heard the names, it would come back to me. Maybe. :)

I just checked and it was 2007 that Tybee drowned. For some reason, I thought it was way before that!

borndem
11-05-2011, 07:38 PM
Originally Posted by borndem http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif
That's what I am afraid of them doing. If they know it, they know it.

Pondering is not good, IMO. It bothers me a bit.

Maybe they've decided, late in the day, and plan to execute the jury form, sign it and have everything neat & ready first thing Monday morning.

Let's hope it's Guilty tied with a little bow.

<gnaw, gnaw>



OK. I get the part... and it's ok... that they MAY know what the verdict is.

And I get... and it's fine.... that they MAY have good reason to wait til Monday to announce it.

What I don't get... and I do not like.... is that my emotions & thoughts are being controlled by 12 other people.



Gee, why can't you read my mind as well as I can read my mind, girrrrrlll??

What I meant up there in, "If they know it, they know it," was -- if they are sure of the verdict -- all 12 -- then they've done what they swore to do. Finis. Done. Over. Deliver it, let the Court do the voodoo that they do, and then you go home.

"If he's guilty and you know it, write it down," as the song goes. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

Yep, all 12 of them, driving the bus, and we're all in the back seat for the ride. Arrrrrrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhh. Same here. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

oceanblueeyes
11-05-2011, 07:48 PM
Thanks for your explanation of what jurors do in deliberation and why it takes as long as it does.
I've never been a juror, so I appreciate every bit of info and everyone's opinions re the time frame.

LOL - I just noticed when your join date is, oceanblueeyes...
there aren't that many who've been here longer than I have...
and I see you're one of them! :)

You were here when we lost one of most popular mods, Tybee. That was sure a shock.
Tricia keeps the "In Remembrance of Our Beloved Tybee" link with the photo of Tybee &
her granddaughter, up on the Home page. For those of you who weren't here then, Tybee
lived on Tybee Island off GA coast, IIRC. She got up early every morning, walked a block or
so to the beach and went for a swim in the ocean... or it may have been a small inlet of the ocean.

But, one morning, for some reason, her poor little body was found floating in the water.
It was very sad here for quite awhile. I miss her. A lot!

I miss Tybee too and it was such a shock to the entire WS community.

A very sad day and I still feel very sad knowing she is gone.

IMO

oceanblueeyes
11-05-2011, 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by borndem http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7320150#post7320150)
That's what I am afraid of them doing. If they know it, they know it.

Pondering is not good, IMO. It bothers me a bit.

Maybe they've decided, late in the day, and plan to execute the jury form, sign it and have everything neat & ready first thing Monday morning.

Let's hope it's Guilty tied with a little bow.

<gnaw, gnaw>







Gee, why can't you read my mind as well as I can read my mind, girrrrrlll??

What I meant up there in, "If they know it, they know it," was -- if they are sure of the verdict -- all 12 -- then they've done what they swore to do. Finis. Done. Over. Deliver it, let the Court do the voodoo that they do, and then you go home.

"If he's guilty and you know it, write it down," as the song goes. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif

Yep, all 12 of them, driving the bus, and we're all in the back seat for the ride. Arrrrrrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhh. Same here. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

Hi ya Borndem!:seeya:

I think the way jurors conduct themselves is changing somewhat though due to the backlash of coming back so soon with a verdict.

It is far better to take their time in coming to their decision. It just looks better and we know how the media slams short deliberations. Then it would be 'Poor Conrad they had it in for him and didn't even take time to look at all the evidence.' :innocent: Thats the way the media rolls nowadays.

Anything for a controversy.

So I think the jury is smart in not coming right out the day they went in with a verdict.

IMO

octobermoon
11-05-2011, 08:10 PM
Ya know I don't think we have had a mod warning this whole trial.
That has to be a record. Do you think we will get treats :D !

oceanblueeyes
11-05-2011, 08:23 PM
Ya know I don't think we have had a mod warning this whole trial.
That has to be a record. Do you think we will get treats :D !

Well my hubby and I just put up 25 quarts of shelled pecans so I can certainly bring the dessert. What would you like to have? :)

peace9274
11-05-2011, 08:24 PM
Ya know I don't think we have had a mod warning this whole trial.
That has to be a record. Do you think we will get treats :D !

You're right!
Has there even been a mod on this forum at all, during the trial?

There was a mod's general warning in a case I was on, just after the Celina Cass Case. It had
to do with something on FB. I'm sure it was directed at me & another WSer, cuz our posts were
deleted. I felt horrible about it and apologized to the group & privately to the mod. She was so
cool about it... but it sure gave me a scare & I (usually) think before I post, now.

octobermoon
11-05-2011, 08:27 PM
Well my hubby and I just put up 25 quarts of shelled pecans so I can certainly bring the dessert. What would you like to have? :)

Yum pie please :)

peace9274
11-05-2011, 08:27 PM
Well my hubby and I just put up 25 quarts of shelled pecans so I can certainly bring the dessert. What would you like to have? :)

WOW! You must have pecan trees on your acres of land!!! :)

Do you keep them for yourselves or do they go into shops?

peace9274
11-05-2011, 08:29 PM
Yum pie please :)

And yum... pecans in my salad, on my ice cream, in my chicken dishes...