Oddities

[jayla]

On a different forum, someone had suggested to posters that they list all the things they found odd in the JBR case. This one also seems to have a few of those, or at the very least, a few coincidences. Does anyone care to list some? Thanks.
Mine:
She had been angry and punished the boys earlier that day.
She and Darin had fought that night as well.
She had the box with personal papers out like she had been perusing them.

[Dani_T]

On a different forum, someone had suggested to posters that they list all the things they found odd in the JBR case. This one also seems to have a few of those, or at the very least, a few coincidences. Does anyone care to list some? Thanks.
Mine:
She had been angry and punished the boys earlier that day.
She and Darin had fought that night as well.
She had the box with personal papers out like she had been perusing them.

Oooh there is lots :) I've only got time for my favourite at the moment though :)

The bread knife had fibreglass and rubber derbis which was microscopically identical to what is produced when the screen is cut with the same knife

[Jeana (DP)]

Darlie claims to have been attacked first, and the boys as an afterthought.
Darlie had "slicing" wounds, while the boys had deep penetrating stabbing wounds to the trunks of their body sure to kill them.

[Texana]

The sink had been cleaned up, and blood traces showed up with Luminol.

That is a HUGE oddity, because what intruder would stop to clean up?

[cajun]

wasn't there only one set of footprints in all the blood that was in the house..just darlie's

the biggest thing to me was the way she acted in the cemetery, some grieving mother.

[CrazyMazy]

If she was fighting the intruder and she knew her husband was upstais sleeping, why did she not scream her head off to wake her up ??

[Jeana (DP)]

Well, that's one of the problems. Darlie says on the 911 tape "I woke up -- I was fighting." However, in the courtroom, she claims that she never said she fought the intruder(s), but that she was "frightening." Why she would deny something that would have helped her goes further to show that she was, even through the trial, staging the entire thing.

[Dani_T]

Well, that's one of the problems. Darlie says on the 911 tape "I woke up -- I was fighting." However, in the courtroom, she claims that she never said she fought the intruder(s), but that she was "frightening." Why she would deny something that would have helped her goes further to show that she was, even through the trial, staging the entire thing.

Officer Waddell also testified that she told him that she struggled with the intruder near the wine rack.

[Jeana (DP)]

Another oddity. Darlie claims that Darin "fixed" the gate that goes from their backyard to the alley behind the house the day before the night of the murders. When police were investigating, they discovered that the gate dragged horribly and had to be actually lifted off the ground to be opened. Why would an intruder(s) who is trying to escape from a house where he/they just murdered two little boys and their mother is following them bother to close this gate? There's no way they went over the top of it.

[IrishMist]

Some oddities that stick out for me...

If Darlie did it, why did she summon help before damon was dead? She had no way of knowing that he'd die without identifying her as the murderer, why risk that?

If an intruder did it, why didn't that yappy dog bark it's head off, and wake up Darin?

I do wonder about that black car....

But, if an intruder did it, why didn't he nab all of that jewelry that was on the counter?

If Darlie did it, WHY? Why on earth would she do that? The only thing I can come up with is the remote possibility that it was her "drama queen" side gone wild. Maybe he said he wanted a divorce, and was taking the boys, and it was a "If I can't have them, then neither can you" kind of thing??

There were some inconsistencies in the testimony of the nurses, i.e. there was blood on her hands, there wasn't blood on her hands... same with her feet. You can see from the pictures scratches and cuts that weren't put into the notes, or testified to by the nurses.

But, the bruises in the pictures seem incredibly large to have come from this type of struggle, if that's where she got them. I would expect "finger print" bruises, you know what I mean?

Darin doesn't make sense, either... you hear glass breaking, and your wife screaming hysterically-- yet you take the time to put on jeans?

I don't know. I just don't know. I do believe there's more to this story than what we've heard, though.

[txsvicki]

I may have already written this on another thread but I thought it odd that Darlie kept saying that the boys had been stabbed and were dying. I know she claims to have found the knife on the floor but for all she knew the boys could have been shot, and I believe she told 911 they had been stabbed. Also, she wasn't medically trained, how would she know that the boys wounds were deep enough to cause death? Finally, I thought it really odd that Darlie would run towards or after the intruder instead of away from and towards where Darrin was upstairs. I can't see anyone picking up the knife and placing it on the counter. What if the intruder came back to the kitchen and grabbed the knife again. Most people would hang on to it like a weapon until getting their wits about them and figuring out what had happened.

[Jeana (DP)]

Good post Irish Mist and welcome!!! This sentence from your post stood out for me:

Darin doesn't make sense, either... you hear glass breaking, and your wife screaming hysterically-- yet you take the time to put on jeans?


What actually makes even LESS sense if you can imagine, is that Darlie and Darin cannot seem to agree on just what Darin was wearing when he came down stairs.

In one statement, one of them claims he sleeps in the nude, so he put his jeans on when he heard the screams. As you posted, this makes no sense.

I've got three children and it also makes little sense to sleep nude when you've got an infant waking at all hours of the night - but of course its not unheard of, so I'll get back on track.

In another statement, one of them says Darin only took the time to put on his glasses, as he's blind without them. Another statement has him leaving them upstairs.

It may have happened, but I can't remember a statement where he put both the jeans and the glasses on. So, either he was nude, but he could see. Or, he had his pants on, but he was blind when he noticed all that stuff he said in his statement.

We may never know the truth, but its inconsistencies like this that make many speculate that Darin was way more involved than we've heard yet.

Hopefully, once they accept the fact that Darlie will be executed for the murders, one or the other will step forward and finally tell the truth.

[IrishMist]

Good post Irish Mist and welcome!!! This sentence from your post stood out for me:

Darin doesn't make sense, either... you hear glass breaking, and your wife screaming hysterically-- yet you take the time to put on jeans?


What actually makes even LESS sense if you can imagine, is that Darlie and Darin cannot seem to agree on just what Darin was wearing when he came down stairs.

In one statement, one of them claims he sleeps in the nude, so he put his jeans on when he heard the screams. As you posted, this makes no sense.

I've got three children and it also makes little sense to sleep nude when you've got an infant waking at all hours of the night - but of course its not unheard of, so I'll get back on track.

In another statement, one of them says Darin only took the time to put on his glasses, as he's blind without them. Another statement has him leaving them upstairs.

It may have happened, but I can't remember a statement where he put both the jeans and the glasses on. So, either he was nude, but he could see. Or, he had his pants on, but he was blind when he noticed all that stuff he said in his statement.

We may never know the truth, but its inconsistencies like this that make many speculate that Darin was way more involved than we've heard yet.

Hopefully, once they accept the fact that Darlie will be executed for the murders, one or the other will step forward and finally tell the truth.

I think he has to be, but somehow, I don't have the feeling that he killed them. Maybe he knows she did? I can picture in my mind... maybe she freaked, and killed them- it got the dog barking, which woke up Darin...
He comes down and sees the carnage--- Darlie crying hysterically, realizing what's she's done...
Darin saying "My God, what did you do, Darlie?"

Would they, at that point, think: what's done is done, how do we get out of this?

I don't know if we'll ever hear the truth. Even when she's executed, why would Darin come forward at that point? What would be in it for him?
I think they'll stand by their stories.
Well, at least Darin will... Darlie might get a little more vocal as her time comes closer, she may not want to go down alone.
But will she take Drake's only remaining parent away from him?
I go back and forth, and it remains to be seen... but I doubt we'll ever hear the whole truth.

[Jeana (DP)]

I think he has to be, but somehow, I don't have the feeling that he killed them. Maybe he knows she did? I can picture in my mind... maybe she freaked, and killed them- it got the dog barking, which woke up Darin...
He comes down and sees the carnage--- Darlie crying hysterically, realizing what's she's done...
Darin saying "My God, what did you do, Darlie?"

Would they, at that point, think: what's done is done, how do we get out of this?

I don't know if we'll ever hear the truth. Even when she's executed, why would Darin come forward at that point? What would be in it for him?
I think they'll stand by their stories.
Well, at least Darin will... Darlie might get a little more vocal as her time comes closer, she may not want to go down alone.
But will she take Drake's only remaining parent away from him?
I go back and forth, and it remains to be seen... but I doubt we'll ever hear the whole truth.

Well she may be a different parent than the one who murdered the boys, but if she hasn't or can't change, grow, mature, then why would she possibly care if she takes Drake away from the one parent that he has? This is a woman who brutally murdered her sleeping children. I don't know if a psychopath can care.

As far as what Darin knows, I think he'll keep quiet as long as Darlie does. I believe he's got enough knowledge to guaranty that not only will Darlie lose all her remaining appeals, but that everyone (except maybe her family), will disown her. She'll get no more "fan" mail, no more positive publicity, zip. I don't think she could handle that. As for what Darlie knows about Darin, its probably enough to have him arrested. I don't know what the DA's office or the police have on him, but something tells me Darin's not very well liked by either office.

[Usher737]

The things that bother me the most are the sock in the alley and the cleaned up sink.

Does anyone think that maybe Darlie was going to also kill herself and then backed out at the last minute ?

Post pardum depression can lead to strange behavior, so if she did do it, why not confess and plead temporary insanity?

I guess part of me believes she could be guilty but can not come up with a logical reason as to why.

[IrishMist]

I can't come up with a reason why, either. At least not a reason that makes sense to a clear minded person. I do know that there are people who look at others as objects, not as people. Darlie may have been that way, and it would certainly make it easier to get rid of objects than people. (Armchair psychology here.) I can only imagine the pressure of the combined effects of post-partum depression, diet pills, and financial stress. She was young, and I think ill-equipped to deal with heavy duty problems. If I'm not mistaken, she was always taken care of, so I don't believe she ever had to develop that inner strength one needs to find a way to deal with serious problems. So when in the midst of serious problems, she cracked. She sank instead of knowing how to swim.

I do know that I go back and forth regarding her guilt. If she did do it, I think she acted alone. I get torn between whether Darin caught her doing it, or if she did the deed, then kicked the whole thing into gear, and he believes her...

I started reading the transcripts, and there are two oddities that really stick out for me so far...

1. There are no bloody footprints going TO the sink- only away.

and

2. When I was reading Darlie's account, and comparing to the pictures, something stuck out to me. She says that she found the knife on the floor in the utility room. She picked it up, and put it on the counter, right?
When you look at the pictures, the knife points toward the kitchen.
Think about it. When you have a knife in your hand, and you set it down... don't you set it down with the point away from you?

I know this isn't a huge distinction, but it doesn't fit with her story. That knife was set down from the family room side of the breakfast bar. The one part of her story that doesn't change is where she found the knife, and what she did with it. She changes where she was when she saw the knife, but in every story, she is still in the kitchen when she sets it down.

Maybe this is addressed in testimony, and I just haven't got to it yet. There is sooo much to read, and I'm at the tip of the iceberg. But these things really jumped out at me.

[Jeana (DP)]

Excellent post IrishMist! I agree with you. One of the things that law enforcement picked up on right away is the absence of any damage to items in the home. If two men break into a home that they're not familiar with in the middle of the night, have a life or death fight with a mother trying to save not only her own life, but the lives of her children, and escape a different way than they entered, one would think that more than a wine glass would be broken. They surmise that Darlie cared too much for her possessions to break anything. If you've got the book, Media Tried, Justice Denied, there are excellent photos of the house that show shelf after shelf of knick-knacks all OVER the rooms where these fights took place. Most of these items are fragile and some appear to be very delicate and look as though a strong breeze could knock them off of the shelves on which they sit. How is it that nothing was disturbed by this fight of her life? Makes no sense!!!

[Goody]

2. When I was reading Darlie's account, and comparing to the pictures, something stuck out to me. She says that she found the knife on the floor in the utility room. She picked it up, and put it on the counter, right?
When you look at the pictures, the knife points toward the kitchen.
Think about it. When you have a knife in your hand, and you set it down... don't you set it down with the point away from you?

I know this isn't a huge distinction, but it doesn't fit with her story. That knife was set down from the family room side of the breakfast bar. The one part of her story that doesn't change is where she found the knife, and what she did with it. She changes where she was when she saw the knife, but in every story, she is still in the kitchen when she sets it down.

Maybe this is addressed in testimony, and I just haven't got to it yet. There is sooo much to read, and I'm at the tip of the iceberg. But these things really jumped out at me.
I don't think anyone has noticed that before. Good work. That is one more dot for me. Thanks. I have always wondered if she didn't just forget to put the knife on the floor (where the intruder was supposed to have dropped it) and noticed while on the phone, and that is why she kept making such a big deal about the fingerprints.

But now looking at it from the other side of that counter, imagine this. She thought Damon was dead and dialed 911, then something happened (maybe Darin alerted her) to make her realize that he wasn't. So she got the knife and went into the family room, stabbing him again to make sure, then put it on the counter (as you noted) from the family room side. It was too late to turn back at that point. The police were due any second and in the haste of the moment, she doesn't notice the knife is still on the counter until Waddell shows up. Isn't that when the conversation gets confusing? She is talking to Waddell and the 911 operator and maybe Darin at times?

And don't forget that Darin hurries to Damon's side to take his pulse once he knows the paramedics are outside. He claims he didn't get one, yet only seconds later the paramedic says Damon didn't take his last breath until the paramedic picked him up. So why did Darin scoot over there to check his pulse right then knowing paremedics would be in at any moment?

Add that little bit of information to the picture beginning to come into focus with Darlie placing that knife on the counter from the family room side because she'd had to stab Damon again while on the phone to 911 and not knowing that the knife handle would not pick up fingerprints, she had to come up with a quick cover story so she admits she picked up the knife but says she doesn't know why. She makes it sound as if it were just an instinctive act. But she is desperate to make sure people remember that she said she picked up the knife early on, so she keeps repeating it to anyone who will listen. Little did she know that effort only made her look more guilty. It didn't establish an alibi for her.

[IrishMist]

I don't think anyone has noticed that before. Good work. That is one more dot for me. Thanks. I have always wondered if she didn't just forget to put the knife on the floor (where the intruder was supposed to have dropped it) and noticed while on the phone, and that is why she kept making such a big deal about the fingerprints.

But now looking at it from the other side of that counter, imagine this. She thought Damon was dead and dialed 911, then something happened (maybe Darin alerted her) to make her realize that he wasn't. So she got the knife and went into the family room, stabbing him again to make sure, then put it on the counter (as you noted) from the family room side. It was too late to turn back at that point. The police were due any second and in the haste of the moment, she doesn't notice the knife is still on the counter until Waddell shows up. Isn't that when the conversation gets confusing? She is talking to Waddell and the 911 operator and maybe Darin at times?

And don't forget that Darin hurries to Damon's side to take his pulse once he knows the paramedics are outside. He claims he didn't get one, yet only seconds later the paramedic says Damon didn't take his last breath until the paramedic picked him up. So why did Darin scoot over there to check his pulse right then knowing paremedics would be in at any moment?

Add that little bit of information to the picture beginning to come into focus with Darlie placing that knife on the counter from the family room side because she'd had to stab Damon again while on the phone to 911 and not knowing that the knife handle would not pick up fingerprints, she had to come up with a quick cover story so she admits she picked up the knife but says she doesn't know why. She makes it sound as if it were just an instinctive act. But she is desperate to make sure people remember that she said she picked up the knife early on, so she keeps repeating it to anyone who will listen. Little did she know that effort only made her look more guilty. It didn't establish an alibi for her.
I don't know, Goody...
My gut says she was done stabbing by the time she got on the phone. To me, you couldn't stab someone without a sound... you know, some kind of grunt or something.
I also believe that the height of the explosion was over by then. Not that she was calm, by any means... still on an emotional tangent, how could you not be after a night like that?

The knife, I think, was set down after the murders. Any idiot knows about fingerprints, and she thought she had that covered. But it was just another detail that she didn't think all the way through.

As far as Darin checking Damon's pulse, that was part of the show. They thought the boys were both dead. Probably surprised the hell out of Darin when he checked the pulse and found one. But what the hell else was he gonna do when the paramedics arrived? He had to be checking on the boys, that's what a parent would be doing. Did he think far enough ahead to realize he'd need the blood of both boys on his jeans? I don't know.

[ProbableCauz]

The first oddity that stood out to me was Darlie speaking with the 911 operator.
The Constant use of "they"

00:00:00 911 Operator #1 ...Rowlett 911...what is your emergency..
00:01:19 Darlie Routier ...somebody came here...they broke in...
00:03:27 911 Operator #1 ...ma'am...
00:05:11 Darlie Routier ...they just stabbed me and my children...
00:07:16 911 Operator #1 ...what...
00:08:05 Darlie Routier ...they just stabbed me and my kids...my little boys...
00:09:24 911 Operator #1 ...who...who did...
00:11:12 Darlie Routier ...my little boy is dying...

She never answers the operator question, "who did"?


01:11:28 Darlie Routier ...I saw them Darin...

Again, she makes reference to more than 1 person being involved


02:38:11 911 Operator #1 ...is there anybody in the house ...besides you and your children...
02:38:11 Darlie Routier ...no ...my husband he just ran downstairs ...he's helping me ...but they're dying ...oh my God ...they're dead...


Darlie says no to the question, is there anybody in the house besides her and the children, she says NO, then says Darin just ran downstairs, how does she know the intruders aren't still there?


03:52:13 Darlie Routier ...no ...he ran out ...uh ...they ran out in the garage ...I was sleeping...


Is it he or they? and if she was sleeping, how does she know what he or they was doing?

04:05:02 Darlie Routier ...ya'll look out in the garage ...look out in the garage ...they left a knife laying on...


Look in the garage for what? She just told the operator no one but the family was in the home, and the knife is in plain view.

She then goes on to say "his knife was laying over there and she already touched it".

From the moment she placed the call, the oddities began.....

[Goody]

I don't know, Goody...
My gut says she was done stabbing by the time she got on the phone. To me, you couldn't stab someone without a sound... you know, some kind of grunt or something.
I am not sure I agree with that. She'd have gotten no resistance from Damon at that point. He was dying, just not fast enough. Or at least he was seriously injured and losing blood.

What makes me think she was on the phone is that it sounds like someone says somthing about someone "breathing" and then she seems to be alerted. I can't remember exactly. I've participated in so many discussions about the 911 tape, the trial transcript, and various others who have created their own, etc., but I am thinking there is room for a probable exchange between Darlie and Darin in which he notes that one of the kids is still breathing (has to be Damon) and she comes back with a worried tone (forgotten what I thought her words were.) But I admit that this isn't proof it did happen. It just offers some support for the possibility.

[Goody]

As far as Darin checking Damon's pulse, that was part of the show. They thought the boys were both dead. Probably surprised the hell out of Darin when he checked the pulse and found one. But what the hell else was he gonna do when the paramedics arrived? He had to be checking on the boys, that's what a parent would be doing. Did he think far enough ahead to realize he'd need the blood of both boys on his jeans? I don't know.
I have considered the possibility that checking Damon's pulse was just for show on Darin's part, but I can't figure out why he would say he didn't get a pulse unless he was just trying to show that it wouldn't have done him any good to try to help him sooner because he was already gone, in spite of what paramedics said.

When paramedics came in, he was already back at Devon's side, which I believe was his agreed on post (with Darlie). So his move to Damon's side was quick, to the point, and probably didn't take even a full minute. Probably no more than a few seconds.

I don't think he thought he'd need the blood of both boys on him, since I believe originally he was to stay with Devon while Darlie was to be with Damon. He needed NOT to have the blood of both boys on him to help support his alibi....he was upstairs and rushed to Devon's side (not even seeing Damon) to administer CPR. Shouldn't be any Damon blood on Darin...until he started trying to alibi for Darlie, changing his story from just getting a pulse to lifting up the boy's shirt and removing the towel she'd put on him to see his wounds. I don't believe he did any of those things except to take Damon's pulse (and that is just a maybe).

[Goody]

My favorite oddity is the flying blood. Bevel went through a lot of trouble demonstrating just how the cast off blood from the knife could land in the exact same location as it did on her shirt as she raised the knife to stab again. They found droplets with both Damon's and Devon's blood on her shirt. The defense (and supporters) have stated that the blood could have also landed on her shirt as she bent forward to close Devon's chest as Darin blew air into his lungs. Nothing offered to explain how Damon's blood got there. But not a single demonstration to show us exactly how such a thing could occur. So all we have is some vague theory about events that could have happened and not one single effort made to show us what Bevel did....exactly how it did happen. :waitasec: We're just supposed to buy that?

[Jeana (DP)]

The first oddity that stood out to me was Darlie speaking with the 911 operator.
The Constant use of "they"

00:00:00 911 Operator #1 ...Rowlett 911...what is your emergency..
00:01:19 Darlie Routier ...somebody came here...they broke in...
00:03:27 911 Operator #1 ...ma'am...
00:05:11 Darlie Routier ...they just stabbed me and my children...
00:07:16 911 Operator #1 ...what...
00:08:05 Darlie Routier ...they just stabbed me and my kids...my little boys...
00:09:24 911 Operator #1 ...who...who did...
00:11:12 Darlie Routier ...my little boy is dying...

She never answers the operator question, "who did"?


01:11:28 Darlie Routier ...I saw them Darin...

Again, she makes reference to more than 1 person being involved


02:38:11 911 Operator #1 ...is there anybody in the house ...besides you and your children...
02:38:11 Darlie Routier ...no ...my husband he just ran downstairs ...he's helping me ...but they're dying ...oh my God ...they're dead...


Darlie says no to the question, is there anybody in the house besides her and the children, she says NO, then says Darin just ran downstairs, how does she know the intruders aren't still there?


03:52:13 Darlie Routier ...no ...he ran out ...uh ...they ran out in the garage ...I was sleeping...


Is it he or they? and if she was sleeping, how does she know what he or they was doing?

04:05:02 Darlie Routier ...ya'll look out in the garage ...look out in the garage ...they left a knife laying on...


Look in the garage for what? She just told the operator no one but the family was in the home, and the knife is in plain view.

She then goes on to say "his knife was laying over there and she already touched it".

From the moment she placed the call, the oddities began.....


She STILL can't decide whether there was one or two intruders!!! LOL

[IrishMist]

She STILL can't decide whether there was one or two intruders!!! LOL
This doesn't bug me too much. I have family and friends born and raised in southern Tennessee, and they have a weird habit of using "they" when they only mean one person. (That's not their only weird habit, but it's one of them!! ):D

However, Jeana, you're from Texas, aren't you? You'd know the dialect far better than I.

[Jeana (DP)]

This doesn't bug me too much. I have family and friends born and raised in southern Tennessee, and they have a weird habit of using "they" when they only mean one person. (That's not their only weird habit, but it's one of them!! ):D

However, Jeana, you're from Texas, aren't you? You'd know the dialect far better than I.

Forget about the 911 call. Even if we wait until she's calmed down and has time to think. She still can't decide whether it was one guy or two. She can't decide whether she knows him or not. She can't decide what Darin is wearing when he runs down the stairs.

I've been in Texas for about 20 years and I've never come across anyone who said "they" when referring to one person - even a really BIG person!! LOL Might say ya'll though!

[IrishMist]

Forget about the 911 call. Even if we wait until she's calmed down and has time to think. She still can't decide whether it was one guy or two. She can't decide whether she knows him or not. She can't decide what Darin is wearing when he runs down the stairs.

Wait! In WHICH story??:waitasec:

[IrishMist]

Wait! In WHICH story??:waitasec:
My previous post was sarcasm, by the way!

[Jeana (DP)]

Wait! In WHICH story??:waitasec:


No kidding!!!

[JerseyGirl]

I haven't read all of the posts yet but I wanted to share a couple of thoughts before I forget them, (short-term memory is starting to slip)!! I hope I'm not repeating something that I just haven't read yet.

If Darlie did this to her own children, I believe that something in her just snapped. I don't know if it implies that she was a timebomb, or a sadistic sociopath. Maybe she simply just went over the edge temporarily due to the post-partum depression. (I've lived through post-partum depression more than once, and for those skeptics out there, let me just tell you ... it is 100% real)! For that reason, I don't think that she could have, after realizing what she had done, casually walked over to her son and stabbed him again to finish him off while she was on the phone. In a violent rage, yes ... as an afterthought to save yourself, I don't see it ... not in this case at least. Seems completely too far-fetched to me.

Irish Mist, I think your post about the direction of the knife on the counter is so insightful. I'm not sure if too much weight can be placed on the direction the knife was facing, however. We don't know which hand she carried it in, whether she placed the knife or kind of dropped or tossed the knife as she rushed by, (which could have made it spin a bit as it landed), etc. You also mentioned that the story never changed about where she found the knife. I thought I read on other threads that she first said the knife was dropped on the kitchen floor, and at another time said that she saw the knife laying on the utility room floor? I could be mistaken but I could have sworn I saw this.

About the pulse, I don't think it's unlikely that Darin wouldn't feel a pulse even if he was still alive at that point. This is a small boy who has lost a lot of blood, and is barely clinging to life. His pressure was probably extremely low and I think that even a trained medical professional might have trouble finding his pulse under those circumstances, certainly his frantic father would.

I also don't know if I would remember details in a situation like that. To us we can't imagine how the two of them can't get their story together on what Darin was wearing when he came downstairs. But think about it ... how surreal must this all have seemed? Even if Darlie did this, imagine what this scene must have looked like, and what kind of thoughts must be flying through your mind when you realize what you've done. And you wish you hadn't, (or can't remember that you did), and you're trying to call 911, and your husband is doing CPR on your baby, and the other baby is crying, and then you realize that he is dying too, and so on and so on. I can completely see how details like what someone is wearing could be overlooked. I think that a situation like that would be so chaotic that I would find it amazing, (and suspicious as far as Darin is concerned), if they both remembered with exact detail all of the events of the night and what each other were wearing, etc. To remember those kinds of details in this kind of context, I would think that you'd have to be fairly cold or otherwise emotionally detached especially if it were your children involved. Either that or it hints of premeditation.

Finally, I also don't find it weird that Darin pulled on his pants and put on his glasses first, (if that's what he did). I think it's a fairly quick & automatic reaction, and he probably had the pants he was wearing earlier draped over a chair near the bed or even lying on the floor next to the bed. He may have been hopping into his pants as he ran down the hallway so as not to approach whatever situation was waiting completely naked. This part of the story also does not concern me at all. If I were naked, I would almost definitely also reach for something before running out of the room.

This is not to say that Darlie didn't do this. I find the 16 versions of her story very disturbing, the silly string at the gravesite, (not to mention his friends at a graveside birthday party!!!! What kind of parents do these kids have????) But I do think that we all, (myself included), tend to overanalyze things especially when it's a case like this one that we simply cannot comprehend.

[JerseyGirl]

Irish Mist, I finally found the photos with the knife on the counter. I see now what you were talking about. I didn't realize that the counter was so narrow or that there was something in such close proximity to the knife, (which surely would have prevented it from spinning). Your theory is very intriguing.

I am sick from these photos, (that I immediately stopped viewing upon realizing just how graphic they were to become). What absolute horror ... I just don't understand why these things happen. God bless those innocent boys.

[Dani_T]

I also don't know if I would remember details in a situation like that. To us we can't imagine how the two of them can't get their story together on what Darin was wearing when he came downstairs. But think about it ... how surreal must this all have seemed? Even if Darlie did this, imagine what this scene must have looked like, and what kind of thoughts must be flying through your mind when you realize what you've done. And you wish you hadn't, (or can't remember that you did), and you're trying to call 911, and your husband is doing CPR on your baby, and the other baby is crying, and then you realize that he is dying too, and so on and so on. I can completely see how details like what someone is wearing could be overlooked. I think that a situation like that would be so chaotic that I would find it amazing, (and suspicious as far as Darin is concerned), if they both remembered with exact detail all of the events of the night and what each other were wearing, etc. To remember those kinds of details in this kind of context, I would think that you'd have to be fairly cold or otherwise emotionally detached especially if it were your children involved. Either that or it hints of premeditation.

If the discrepancies between Darlie and Darin on this was "You were wearing sweatpants" "No I wasn't I was wearing jeans" then I would agree with you. But the discrepancy is much bigger than that and with greater implications. Either Darin pulled on his jeans before he came downstairs or else he didn't and he had to go back upstairs BEFORE the police came (because when Waddell turned up he had them on). Of course his story gets confusing here because at one stage he said he did go upstairs and yet later one his story changes. And WHEN did he go upstairs since there isn't a lot of opportunity on the 911 call before Waddell arrives to do this.

A dispute between WHAT type of pants he was wearing would be one thing- but a dispute about whether he was wearing them at all (or running around either naked or in his underwear) and when his pants suddenly materialised on him is something else entirely I think. (not to mention his friends at a graveside birthday party!!!! What kind of parents do these kids have????) But I do think that we all, (myself included), tend to overanalyze things especially when it's a case like this one that we simply cannot comprehend.

[JerseyGirl]

I definitely see where you're coming from. I still think that a scenario like this would be so chaotic that I don't think they will ever remember exactly how things unfolded or in what order. I don't think the mind is capable of those details during such trauma.

BTW, the more I read, the more suspicious I become of Darin so I'm certainly not trying to make excuses for him.

[ProbableCauz]

I've been in Texas for about 20 years and I've never come across anyone who said "they" when referring to one person - even a really BIG person!! LOL Might say ya'll though!

I've never heard anyone from around those parts refer to "they" as meaning one person either, lol, but who knows? I doubt seriously Darlie was meaning one person, she slips and says he which is singular, then reverts back to "they"

[IrishMist]

Yeah, I didn't know about the "they" thing, if that was a local dialect, or a southern thing in general.

As far as the knife on the counter goes, I may have missed a version of her story. I'm only part way through the transcripts. Everything I've read so far has her still in the kitchen when she puts the knife down. To me, it was placed there, I don't see (just from pictures, mind you) any blood spatter on the urn thingy next to it, and it seems if she threw it there there would be.
(do we give awards for longest run-on sentence?)

And no, I don't think there was room for it to spin. I firmly believe it was placed there, and done from the family room side.

[JerseyGirl]

I'm becoming very confused from all of the information I've been reading. Were these boys both attacked in the family room or was one of them attacked in the kitchen? If it were in both rooms, I don't think that the direction the knife is facing would help much because we wouldn't necessarily know which attack happened first.

Consider this ... the way a knife is held differs based on what you are doing with it. If you are picking it up off of the floor quickly to place it on a counter, you would probably hold it blade side up. If you were using it to stab someone, you would hold it with the blade facing down. If these murders occured in both rooms, either could have been the case because we don't know which room the attacker was in first. We have Darlie's testimony about where she found the knife but her story keeps changing. Whether that is because she's lying or because she simply can't remember, I don't know.

If the theory is that Darlie killed the kids in the family room and then placed the knife on the counter from that room, I think the blade would most likely be pointing towards the family room, don't you think? Also, her hand would have been wrapped around the handle with the blade pointing down, so if she put it on the counter immediately after the attack, there would be some bloody finger marks or knuckle marks on the counter to possibly indicate at which angle the hand was when it touched the counter. Perhaps you could even tell if the fingertips/fingernails had touched the counter or if the middle knuckle area of the fingers touched the counter to possibly indicate how the knife was being held when it was placed there?

[cami]

I'm becoming very confused from all of the information I've been reading. Were these boys both attacked in the family room or was one of them attacked in the kitchen? If it were in both rooms, I don't think that the direction the knife is facing would help much because we wouldn't necessarily know which attack happened first.

No, both children were stabbed in the family room. Damon managed to crawl or was moved away from the room towards the entry when he was stabbed again with the fatal wounds.

I'm sorry I don't understand why all the discussion on the knife on the counter? The knife was on the carpet in the murder room at some point prior to it being on the counter. Darlie put the knife on the counter. The knife was not on the floor in the utility room or in front of the utility room or the kitchen floor.

[JerseyGirl]

IrishMist had mentioned in a previous post, (I realize now that it's probably on a different thread), about the direction the knife was facing, and what that could possibly imply. I believe that the direction of the knife could imply something, and that's why I continued to discuss it. Not only that but when reading the thread about the 16 versions of Darlie's story, there are several different things said about where the knife was and the conditions under which it was placed on the counter. The discrepancies certainly seem to me to be oddities, and IrishMist's ideas seemed worthy of further discussion.

Has it been clearly established that Damon was attacked twice or is this a theory?

[jaeger]

Yeah, I didn't know about the "they" thing, if that was a local dialect, or a southern thing in general.

Actually using "they" when refering to an UNKNOWN person is very common in Texas. You wouldn't say "My brother went to the store and they bought some beer," but you would definitely say "Someone broke into my house and they stabbed my baby." I still think she's guilty as hell, but this particular "oddity" is a red herring.

[JerseyGirl]

Didn't Darlie come right out and say that there was more than one attacker, (in one or more versions of her story)? In that case, this wouldn't be a red herring at all.

[Goody]

Well, that's one of the problems. Darlie says on the 911 tape "I woke up -- I was fighting." However, in the courtroom, she claims that she never said she fought the intruder(s), but that she was "frightening." Why she would deny something that would have helped her goes further to show that she was, even through the trial, staging the entire thing.
Aha, but in her hypnotic session she remembered fighting with ... not one but TWO intruders, and they are no longer white. Now they are black and dark skinned and they both ran away rather than stab her multiple times like they did the boys. Guess she was just too rough for them. :banghead: Here's a picture of Darlie beating her arm against the wall. (sorry, couldn't find an arm. I guess the concept is too absurd for even comedy smiley creators. LOL)

[Goody]

Has it been clearly established that Damon was attacked twice or is this a theory?
It is a theory but it is based on the blood evidence at the scene. He was first attacked near the couch, just a foot or so from where Darlie slept. His blood is there showing that is where he was first stabbed. When paramedics arrived he was laying on the floor near the entry from the family room to the kitchen. I don't think they tested enough blood to say for certain that he crawled to that area, but he got there somehow and no one admits to carrying him. In fact, Darlie states that he walked after waking her up and that she told him to lay down there while she followed the intruder, who had just exited thru the utility room/garage door.

He either dropped or threw the knife down in the process. Then she walks thru the kitchen to the UR and picks up the knife, which is either on the kitchen floor near the doorway or on the utility room side, depending on which version you focus on. On her way back to Damon, she catches sight of her image in the mirror and suddenly realizes she has been wounded, another story variable according to witnesses. She lays the knife down and runs to the stairway, screaming for Darin and when he comes down stairs, she says she told him about her injured neck, but he runs past her to Devon (because she is screaming Devon's name over and over again even though Damon was the child she had spoken to and seen up close...she never went near Devon to even know if he was hurt or not), stepping right thru/near the area where Damon was laying and doesn't see him. Darin puts the top of the coffee table back on its stand because he thinks Devon was hurt by the falling table and the area where he is laying is too congested with the table top on the floor. (Can't remember exactly where I read this but it is in there somewhere. Later he puts it back down and a paramedic replaces it on the stand) While Darin is rushing to Devon, Darlie is dialing 911.

Now if Damon was not laying where he was found when Darin came downstairs, it makes sense that Darlie would have been surprised to suddenly see him there, esp if she thought he was dead in the first location near the couch. They are obviously talking about somebody breathing on the 911 tape, yet neither child apparently is doing much of that at all. It is just a theory that she stabbed him again in that location.

It is all very confusing. I guess you have to decide what makes more sense? Darlie the caring mother who just snapped and was afraid of going to prison? Or Darlie the sociopath who might have been willing to sacrifice her children to get what she wanted....material wealth, her name up in lights, her life back. According to witnesses, she might have been both, but there is no real evidence that she was. Just like there is no real evidence that she had traumatic amnesia, a head injury, or any cuts in her mouth.

[Goody]

Actually using "they" when refering to an UNKNOWN person is very common in Texas. You wouldn't say "My brother went to the store and they bought some beer," but you would definitely say "Someone broke into my house and they stabbed my baby." I still think she's guilty as hell, but this particular "oddity" is a red herring.
I think "they" is not an important clue. An excited person, guilty or innocent, could alternate between "he" and "they" natually. I agree that this no evidence against her.

[JerseyGirl]

Thanks, Goody, for taking the time to give me such a clear & detailed description. You've definitely cleared some things up for me.

[Goody]

Didn't Darlie come right out and say that there was more than one attacker, (in one or more versions of her story)? In that case, this wouldn't be a red herring at all.
Not during the trial. It wasn't until a couple of years after the trial that she was hypnotized and in that session claimed there were two attackers and that she struggled with. One was black and the other dark skinned, one big, one little or not so big. It doesn't matter. There was only one session with no follow up, no real attempt to remember exactly what had happened. But her supporters appear to believe it is kosher. I, personally, think it is just one more feeble attempt to manipulate those deciding her case.

[Goody]

I believe that the direction of the knife could imply something, and that's why I continued to discuss it.
I agree. I thought this was an excellent observation, one I have never heard anyone else make. It doesn't prove anything but it certainly is a point worth considering when looking at the crime scene.:)

[Jeana (DP)]

I think "they" is not an important clue. An excited person, guilty or innocent, could alternate between "he" and "they" natually. I agree that this no evidence against her.


Had it been the ONLY time she went from one to two intruders, I wouldn't think anything of it either. However, to this day, she still seems to not KNOW how many there were. So, I feel its important.

[HeartofTexas]

I'm a little late replying to this thread but I just registered today. I live just a few miles from Darlie's house so heard a lot of TV coverage and read about it in the paper daily. One of the first oddities I remember is Darlie not sleeping upstairs in the master bedroom because she was such a light sleeper and baby Drake would wake her up when he rolled over in his crib. And yet, when two of her boys were supposedly being murdered by an intruder, one of them just a few feet from her on the couch, this "light sleeper" didn't hear a peep! Now that's odd.

[IrishMist]

I'm a little late replying to this thread but I just registered today. I live just a few miles from Darlie's house so heard a lot of TV coverage and read about it in the paper daily. One of the first oddities I remember is Darlie not sleeping upstairs in the master bedroom because she was such a light sleeper and baby Drake would wake her up when he rolled over in his crib. And yet, when two of her boys were supposedly being murdered by an intruder, one of them just a few feet from her on the couch, this "light sleeper" didn't hear a peep! Now that's odd.
That stuck out in my mind, too, Heart. Just one of the many things she said that just don't make sense!

[mollymalone]

An oddity that stuck out for me when reading the autopsy reports of the two boys was the angle of the knife wounds. Instead of an up and down stabbing motion, the wounds were a down and to the side motion.

I can't believe a person who says she wakes up at "every" movement of little Drake would not respond and wake up at "some intruder" moving around stabbing the life out of her two boys and attacking and stabbing her.

I believe Darrin's statement that first night about putting on his glasses, running downstairs when he heard the noise and Darlie screaming, and went quickly back upstairs to check on Drake, put on pants and run across the street to get his neighbor "for help," (presumably to watch Drake (paramedics, ambulance were there) is more accurate. It's much more likely to have happened than any later explanations from him or Darlie as to what he came down wearing or not wearing. Any later explanations were probably made to help Darlie. IMO

[Jeana (DP)]

I'm a little late replying to this thread but I just registered today. I live just a few miles from Darlie's house so heard a lot of TV coverage and read about it in the paper daily. One of the first oddities I remember is Darlie not sleeping upstairs in the master bedroom because she was such a light sleeper and baby Drake would wake her up when he rolled over in his crib. And yet, when two of her boys were supposedly being murdered by an intruder, one of them just a few feet from her on the couch, this "light sleeper" didn't hear a peep! Now that's odd.


Welcome to Websleuths HeartofTexas!!!

[cami]

Now if Damon was not laying where he was found when Darin came downstairs, it makes sense that Darlie would have been surprised to suddenly see him there, esp if she thought he was dead in the first location near the couch. They are obviously talking about somebody breathing on the 911 tape, yet neither child apparently is doing much of that at all. It is just a theory that she stabbed him again in that location.
[/color]


And there's that "damon, damon, damon" on the 911 tape that I can't quite make out what she is saying but I think yes she and Darin are talking about Damon still breathing. She does say something to Darin about Damon.


I believe Damon was stabbed again near where he was found.

[mollymalone]

And there's that "damon, damon, damon" on the 911 tape that I can't quite make out what she is saying but I think yes she and Darin are talking about Damon still breathing. She does say something to Darin about Damon.


I believe Damon was stabbed again near where he was found.But how'd he get moved? Did she drag/move him as part of her scenario that he "walked" until she told him to lay down? From the stab wounds that the autopsy documented, I find it hard to believe that he got up and walked on his own since a lung was punctured.

[Jeana (DP)]

But how'd he get moved? Did she drag/move him as part of her scenario that he "walked" until she told him to lay down? From the stab wounds that the autopsy documented, I find it hard to believe that he got up and walked on his own since a lung was punctured.


I think that most of us believe that he crawled. She discovered that he was still alive and crawling toward the front door in an effort to get away from her and she attacked him again.

[Goody]

An oddity that stuck out for me when reading the autopsy reports of the two boys was the angle of the knife wounds. Instead of an up and down stabbing motion, the wounds were a down and to the side motion.


I noticed this, too...on Devon. Damon's were more consistent with what you would expect to find. But Devon...those angles make me think they were necessary because he was wiggling and trying to get away from her. That would put her hovering over him, either on her knees or in a crouched position and the swing of the blade on an angle. I may have that wrong as I am not an expert, but for the longest time I didn't get the swinging motion of the knife and how it would ever go high enough to send blood droplets over her shoulder to the back of her shirt. Then one day I envisioned her moving forward over him as she swung the blade, to better control his movements, and the light clicked on. Also, I think there was only one major wound even on Devon that was slanted significantly, and it was the deepest or longest, however you want to term it.

The scratch marks on her chin are very telling in my opinion. They look like a child's scratches and are strategically placed right where Devon might have tried to hurt her back or push her away because she was hurting him.

[Goody]

Had it been the ONLY time she went from one to two intruders, I wouldn't think anything of it either. However, to this day, she still seems to not KNOW how many there were. So, I feel its important.
I don't think Darlie was certain how many intruders there were supposed to be even as she called 911. That might have a lot to do with which direction the police were going to take. You know...like if they said it was most likely burglars, she'd go with muliple intruders. If they said it was attempted rape, she'd go with one intruder. Her going back and forth might just be significant of her indecision even at the last minute. Darlie seemed to have a pattern of telling just enough to get a reaction from the listener, and then she would react to their reaction. In the end, she could always say, I didn't say that. So and so first thought of that. I thought they might be right. That way Darlie she can't be accused of lying. I think she was so worried about making a mistake that she took the neutral road whenever possible. It might have worked well in her teens, but it killed her with the jury.

[Goody]

I also don't know if I would remember details in a situation like that. To us we can't imagine how the two of them can't get their story together on what Darin was wearing when he came downstairs. But think about it ... how surreal must this all have seemed? Even if Darlie did this, imagine what this scene must have looked like, and what kind of thoughts must be flying through your mind when you realize what you've done. And you wish you hadn't, (or can't remember that you did), and you're trying to call 911, and your husband is doing CPR on your baby, and the other baby is crying, and then you realize that he is dying too, and so on and so on. I can completely see how details like what someone is wearing could be overlooked. I think that a situation like that would be so chaotic that I would find it amazing, (and suspicious as far as Darin is concerned), if they both remembered with exact detail all of the events of the night and what each other were wearing, etc. To remember those kinds of details in this kind of context, I would think that you'd have to be fairly cold or otherwise emotionally detached especially if it were your children involved. Either that or it hints of premeditation.


Investigators say it is not that victims forget to mention details that make them suspicious, it is the kind of details left out or continually changing. Victims do not forget where the perp was when they first layed eyes on them. For Darlie that is when she first woke up. She has him standing over her, standing at her feet, sitting on her, putting pressure on her legs and private area, and fleeing out of the family room into the kitchen. She has herself fighting with him and then not fighting with her, and then after the hypnosis, she describes a very active struggle which puts her up on the sofa and knocking him off.

The position of the knife when she first saw it should stand out in her mind, but there is confusion over whether it was on the kitchen side or the utility room side of the threshold,and I think at one point it was even said it was on the threshold.

Then there is when she first realized her neck was cut. She leaned downward to pick up the knife and blood spewed forward out of the gash. Another story is that she happened to see her reflection in the mirror over the bar. I think there is a third one, but can't remember what that one was.

She might not remember what movie they were watching or what they ate last or exactly what time they went to sleep, but specific details like the above definitely stand out for victims. The main points. But Darlie seems to do better with the small stuff. The main points have to be changed or rearranged, etc. and should not have.

Another interesting point is that Darin describes things as going in slow motion. That is a typical comment made by crime victims, that the events seemed so surreal they were in slow motion. Darlie never described anything like that at all. You would think even if she were guilty, she would experience that, but she never mentioned a word about it. It would be extraordinarily odd that she did experience it and just didn't mention it. It is so mindblowing that people can't help but comment on it. That flies in the face of the hysterical Darlie she wanted us to believe she was.

Then there is that one moment when the hysteria completely leaves her and she says in a plain, defensive voice....Someone came in here and intentionally did this, Darin. It is like someone removed her mask for a moment and the real Darlie peeked thru.

I do think she disassociated herself from the kids, that she had accepted their deaths long before they were killed. I am not sure exactly what that means. Maybe she thought about doing it in the weeks or months beforehand without having any real intention of carrying it out, then snapped. They say that something taboo is easier to do, that it is easier to cross the line once you start thinking about the possibilities or fantasizing about it. Or maybe it is something more sinister. Whatever it was, Darlie was waaaaay too accepting too soon of the loss, and so was Darin. How it all fits together, I do not know. Those are just my observations.

[mollymalone]

I think that most of us believe that he crawled. She discovered that he was still alive and crawling toward the front door in an effort to get away from her and she attacked him again.Wouldn't it have been as hard for him to have crawled given the condition of his breathing at that point?

Also another oddity, although kids get abrasions from playing, just being kids.. both of them had specific abrasions that were noted on the autopsy. I wondered whether they had suffered abrasions from the carpet or some other source as they were being stabbed.

[mollymalone]

I noticed this, too...on Devon. Damon's were more consistent with what you would expect to find. But Devon...those angles make me think they were necessary because he was wiggling and trying to get away from her. That would put her hovering over him, either on her knees or in a crouched position and the swing of the blade on an angle. I may have that wrong as I am not an expert, but for the longest time I didn't get the swinging motion of the knife and how it would ever go high enough to send blood droplets over her shoulder to the back of her shirt. Then one day I envisioned her moving forward over him as she swung the blade, to better control his movements, and the light clicked on. Also, I think there was only one major wound even on Devon that was slanted significantly, and it was the deepest or longest, however you want to term it.

The scratch marks on her chin are very telling in my opinion. They look like a child's scratches and are strategically placed right where Devon might have tried to hurt her back or push her away because she was hurting him. I didn't realize she had scratches on her face. When looking at her photos, one tends to look at the more serious looking wounds. I thought that he might have been moving, trying to get away and that the angle of the wound resulted because of that. I also thought that because she had to either lean over him it would result in that angle... or if she was on her knees stabbing him, she may have been crawling on her knees after him in an effort to keep stabbing him... hence the downward and angled wound.

[mollymalone]

I don't think Darlie was certain how many intruders there were supposed to be even as she called 911. That might have a lot to do with which direction the police were going to take. You know...like if they said it was most likely burglars, she'd go with muliple intruders. If they said it was attempted rape, she'd go with one intruder. Her going back and forth might just be significant of her indecision even at the last minute. Darlie seemed to have a pattern of telling just enough to get a reaction from the listener, and then she would react to their reaction. In the end, she could always say, I didn't say that. So and so first thought of that. I thought they might be right. That way Darlie she can't be accused of lying. I think she was so worried about making a mistake that she took the neutral road whenever possible. It might have worked well in her teens, but it killed her with the jury. I think you have put your finger on why she acted like she did and why she changed her stories.

[Dani_T]

Wouldn't it have been as hard for him to have crawled given the condition of his breathing at that point?

There was testimony that he could have moved and also vocalised for a number minutes after the attack. It's the testimony that supporters use to back up the claim that he could calmly stand next to her on the couch, wake her up and talk to her and the follow her to the kitchen entrance. Of course that does present the wee problem of why the intruder who Darlie has repeatedly put IN the same room at the time Damon spoke to her simply continued walking out of the house knowingly leaving two victims alive.

I think he probably did crawl/walk to where he was found after he was stabbed once and then she attacked him again (possibly after she had come back in from outside). It just occured to me that perhaps he woke up as she was stabbing Devon and tried to make a run for it and only got that far before she caught him - but there may be significant blood evidence against that which I have forgotten (Cam??).

Dani

[mollymalone]

There was testimony that he could have moved and also vocalised for a number minutes after the attack. It's the testimony that supporters use to back up the claim that he could calmly stand next to her on the couch, wake her up and talk to her and the follow her to the kitchen entrance. Of course that does present the wee problem of why the intruder who Darlie has repeatedly put IN the same room at the time Damon spoke to her simply continued walking out of the house knowingly leaving two victims alive.

I think he probably did crawl/walk to where he was found after he was stabbed once and then she attacked him again (possibly after she had come back in from outside). It just occured to me that perhaps he woke up as she was stabbing Devon and tried to make a run for it and only got that far before she caught him - but there may be significant blood evidence against that which I have forgotten (Cam??). DaniAfter being stabbed and being hurt, I don't think any child would be standing there "calmly." I agree. There's such a discrepancy over that. If he meant to kill them, why leave them standing there or following him. If he was crawling or walking away from her and ended up in the hallway by the kitchen, why was he going into that direction versus another?

[Jeana (DP)]

Wouldn't it have been as hard for him to have crawled given the condition of his breathing at that point?

Also another oddity, although kids get abrasions from playing, just being kids.. both of them had specific abrasions that were noted on the autopsy. I wondered whether they had suffered abrasions from the carpet or some other source as they were being stabbed.

Well he did end up there. I don't think she dragged him. Either he walked or he crawled, right? Crawling seems a little more likely to me. Besides, if more injuries were inflected during a second attack, we're not sure how difficult it would have been. (I mean of course, he was HURT regardless, just just "how" much is unknown).

[Dani_T]

If he was crawling or walking away from her and ended up in the hallway by the kitchen, why was he going into that direction versus another?

Well there wasn't really anywhere else to go. The room was a dead end with the only exit being right where he was found. He was simply trying to get away, possibly heading towards his dad (upstairs).

[Yellowrose]

Some "dad", he betrayed his own flesh and blood. I'm sure Darin was lingering around somewhere. He never made any attempt to save Damon, the one who was still alive. Judging from the way he protected Darlie I'm beginning to think it was premeditated. That's why he acts the way he does, he's guilty of something! I can't believe that not one family member his or hers would fall for what happened after all this time. Unbelievable!:sick:

[mollymalone]

Well he did end up there. I don't think she dragged him. Either he walked or he crawled, right? Crawling seems a little more likely to me. Besides, if more injuries were inflected during a second attack, we're not sure how difficult it would have been. (I mean of course, he was HURT regardless, just just "how" much is unknown).Right, and if his injuries during the first part of the attack still enabled him to move he could have been running away from her when she got him again thus causing the more serious wounds which then caused his death.

[mollymalone]

Well there wasn't really anywhere else to go. The room was a dead end with the only exit being right where he was found. He was simply trying to get away, possibly heading towards his dad (upstairs).I didn't realize that it was a dead end. I would have thought he'd be heading for dad for help. Thank you all for answering my queries. It's been a long time since I followed the case in the news I did not have transcripts to read and the only book I've read so far was the Justice Denied one. I'm doing a bit of surfing to catch up on what's online regarding the case.

[Dani_T]

I didn't realize that it was a dead end. I would have thought he'd be heading for dad for help. Thank you all for answering my queries. It's been a long time since I followed the case in the news I did not have transcripts to read and the only book I've read so far was the Justice Denied one. I'm doing a bit of surfing to catch up on what's online regarding the case.

I'm impressed you even managed to read MTJD. I read about 3 pages and couldn't stop laughing so only use it for the photos (although some of the labels/descriptions of some of those are wrong as well- so be discerning!). In my experience the best way to learn more about the case is to go to the transcripts. It's fantastic that we have access to them and you'll learn stacks from them. The books (eg. Precious Angels etc) can give you a summary of them but even then sometimes they are misleading too.

[mollymalone]

I'm impressed you even managed to read MTJD. I read about 3 pages and couldn't stop laughing so only use it for the photos (although some of the labels/descriptions of some of those are wrong as well- so be discerning!). In my experience the best way to learn more about the case is to go to the transcripts. It's fantastic that we have access to them and you'll learn stacks from them. The books (eg. Precious Angels etc) can give you a summary of them but even then sometimes they are misleading too.Where are the transcripts? Online? LOL It was an exercise in patience reading that book the way it was written. I didn't pay anything for it, I cked it out of the library.

[Jeana (DP)]

Right, and if his injuries during the first part of the attack still enabled him to move he could have been running away from her when she got him again thus causing the more serious wounds which then caused his death.

I may be wrong darlin, but I think the blood evidence was that he did indeed crawl. The absolute worst part of this whole thing is that he saw who was trying to murder him. Rips my heart out to know that his last vision was that of his mother coming after him with that huge butcher knife. Its truly the stuff nightmares are made of. That the families can simply ignore that amazes me.

[JerseyGirl]

She might not remember what movie they were watching or what they ate last or exactly what time they went to sleep, but specific details like the above definitely stand out for victims. The main points. But Darlie seems to do better with the small stuff. The main points have to be changed or rearranged, etc. and should not have.I agree with everything you said, Goody. I was only referring to the idea that Darlie couldn't remember what Darin was wearing when he came downstairs. The other points should certainly stand out, especially how many intruders there were or where he or they were standing when she first became aware of them.

BTW, I'm sorry I didn't respond to this sooner. I'm not getting e-mail notifications of new replies, and I can't seem to figure out how to fix it. :confused:

[cami]

After being stabbed and being hurt, I don't think any child would be standing there "calmly." I agree. There's such a discrepancy over that. If he meant to kill them, why leave them standing there or following him. If he was crawling or walking away from her and ended up in the hallway by the kitchen, why was he going into that direction versus another?

Some of us think Damon may have been crawling towards the stairs to get his dad. He moved, he may have slid on his belly, but he did move. The depth of his injuries may be another clue that he moved and was stabbed again.

The bloody knife print in the carpet tells something. Either she put it down to contain a child or to pull one back towards her.

[mollymalone]

I may be wrong darlin, but I think the blood evidence was that he did indeed crawl. The absolute worst part of this whole thing is that he saw who was trying to murder him. Rips my heart out to know that his last vision was that of his mother coming after him with that huge butcher knife. Its truly the stuff nightmares are made of. That the families can simply ignore that amazes me.Thanks. Looks like I'm going to have to read a lot more about the evidence. I've forgotten much of what I had read. Yes. It's awful that people can ignore the fact that his last moments on earth were full of awareness and likely bewilderment and fear of his own mother killing him.

[mollymalone]

Some of us think Damon may have been crawling towards the stairs to get his dad. He moved, he may have slid on his belly, but he did move. The depth of his injuries may be another clue that he moved and was stabbed again.

The bloody knife print in the carpet tells something. Either she put it down to contain a child or to pull one back towards her.I would imagine there would be a difference in the depth of the wounds if he had been moving.

[Jeana (DP)]

I agree with everything you said, Goody. I was only referring to the idea that Darlie couldn't remember what Darin was wearing when he came downstairs. The other points should certainly stand out, especially how many intruders there were or where he or they were standing when she first became aware of them.

BTW, I'm sorry I didn't respond to this sooner. I'm not getting e-mail notifications of new replies, and I can't seem to figure out how to fix it. :confused:

We're not sure yet either Darlin. I haven't forgotten about ya.

[Jeana (DP)]

The bloody knife print in the carpet tells something. Either she put it down to contain a child or to pull one back towards her.


My God Cami. I've been hearing about this since '96, but it certainly doesn't ever get easier to read that.

[Dani_T]

The bloody knife print in the carpet tells something. Either she put it down to contain a child or to pull one back towards her.

Or because she had been injured (which we know from the blood imprint that she was at this stage) and was checking out her own injuries.

[Dani_T]

Where are the transcripts? Online? LOL It was an exercise in patience reading that book the way it was written. I didn't pay anything for it, I cked it out of the library.

Yep - go to www.justicefordarlie.net and you'll find them all ordered and catalogued. www.fordarlieroutier.org has them as well but they are not as easy to read and reference.

[mollymalone]

Yep - go to www.justicefordarlie.net and you'll find them all ordered and catalogued. www.fordarlieroutier.org has them as well but they are not as easy to read and reference.Thank you. I had visited the second site before. For some reason my puter didn't like that site or the files.

[JerseyGirl]

We're not sure yet either Darlin. I haven't forgotten about ya.
Thanks, Jeana. I feel so out of the loop without my e-mail notifications! :)

[mollymalone]

Yep - go to www.justicefordarlie.net and you'll find them all ordered and catalogued. www.fordarlieroutier.org has them as well but they are not as easy to read and reference.Although I did have some difficulty with the first site, I was able to view the photo galleries.

Reading the autopsy reports are one thing, but actually seeing the wounds is another. I'd expected to see what I saw on some of them, but the deeper ones were shocking. Those poor children.

Another oddity that struck me is the knife handle was much less bloody that I had expected.

[RobertStJames]

On a different forum, someone had suggested to posters that they list all the things they found odd in the JBR case. This one also seems to have a few of those, or at the very least, a few coincidences. Does anyone care to list some? Thanks.

This is one I've never been able to make sense out of:

Later, investigators learned that the Routiers were turned down for a $5000 vacation loan due to excessive debt and delinquent accounts only five days before the murders. (RR.34: 2120-29).

"The so-called vacation loan was turned down because I did not want to put up any collateral. Dana, Darlie's sister, wanted to buy a new truck and she was only sixteen years old. I was not going to put up any of my assets in this situation. And it was the loan officer who told me to apply for the money as an unsecured vacation loan. She knew all about the truck and that was her advice. When I found out it had to be secured, I just wasn't willing to do it. Believe me, if I wanted a loan, I could have gotten one.


-- Why is Darin trying (twice) to get a car loan for a truck for Darlie's sister when Darlie herself is stuck with no vehicle (Darin was driving the Pathfinder and the Jag, as usual, was broken down).

-- Why did his bank turn him down? He can't say he wasn't interested in getting the loan. That doesn't make any sense. Why even apply for it if he didn't really want it? A $5000 loan is nothing for a guy who has a 10k Jag, a 20k boat, and a 130k house (plus his business). Why would his bank say no, and why would he try again this time disguising it as a "vacation" loan?

-- Why was Darin doing any of this in the first place? I thought it was Darlie who handled the finances.

Can anybody explain this?


RstJ

[cami]

[QUOTE=RobertStJames]This is one I've never been able to make sense out of:

Later, investigators learned that the Routiers were turned down for a $5000 vacation loan due to excessive debt and delinquent accounts only five days before the murders. (RR.34: 2120-29).

"The so-called vacation loan was turned down because I did not want to put up any collateral. Dana, Darlie's sister, wanted to buy a new truck and she was only sixteen years old. I was not going to put up any of my assets in this situation. And it was the loan officer who told me to apply for the money as an unsecured vacation loan. She knew all about the truck and that was her advice. When I found out it had to be secured, I just wasn't willing to do it. Believe me, if I wanted a loan, I could have gotten one.


-- Why is Darin trying (twice) to get a car loan for a truck for Darlie's sister when Darlie herself is stuck with no vehicle (Darin was driving the Pathfinder and the Jag, as usual, was broken down).

-- Why did his bank turn him down? He can't say he wasn't interested in getting the loan. That doesn't make any sense. Why even apply for it if he didn't really want it? A $5000 loan is nothing for a guy who has a 10k Jag, a 20k boat, and a 130k house (plus his business). Why would his bank say no, and why would he try again this time disguising it as a "vacation" loan?

-- Why was Darin doing any of this in the first place? I thought it was Darlie who handled the finances.

Can anybody explain this?

It can be explained by the trial testimony. Well some of it can anyway. Either Darin or the Loan's officer is lying.


- The loan's officer herself testified that the reason Darin put down on the loan application was "vacation." Refer to testimony:

1 THE COURT: All right. Let's rephrase
2 the question. Let's phrase our questions properly,
3 please.
4
5 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
6 Q. You can't get into what he said. Just
7 what did you put down as the reason for the $5,000 loan
8 on the application?
9 A. Vacation.
10 Q. Okay. And, do you remember about what
11 time he came in, Miss Williams, that day?
12 A. It was before noon.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. Yeah. Before noon.


Why the loan was turned down:



20 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
21 Q. Miss Williams, did you tell him the
22 reason he was turned down?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. And, were those -- is that
25 contained on State's Exhibit No. 51?

14 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
15 Q. Let me show you what's been marked for
16 identification as State's Exhibit No. 51-A. Is this a
17 code from your bank of those reasons?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Okay. If you could look at State's
20 Exhibit 51-A to refresh your recollection. Tell the
21 members of the jury the reason Mr. Routier was turned
22 down for his loan.
23
24 MR. RICHARD C. MOSTY: Your Honor,
25 before we start referring to documents, we need to see
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2128


10 BY MS. SHERRI WALLACE:
11 Q. Miss Williams, referring to 51-A,
12 could you tell the jury why Mr. Routier was turned down
13 for this $5,000 loan?
14 A. All four of them?
15 Q. Please.
16 A. Okay. Excessive obligation in
17 relation to income; an excessive amount owed on revolving
18 accounts; and too many new accounts; and delinquent, past
19 or present credit obligations with others.
20 Q. Miss Routier (sic), after you gave him
21 that information -- excuse me.
22 Miss Williams, after you gave Mr.
23 Routier that information, you said that he wanted to try
24 additional collateral and resubmit the loan; is that
25 correct?
Sandra M. Halsey, CSR, Official Court Reporter
2129

Did she say all four? Was he trying to secure four loans or one loan four times?

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. From his request, did you resubmit the
3 loan with the underwriters?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And, what happened that time?
6 A. It was turned down and they -- oh.
7 Q. What were you going to say, Miss
8 Williams?
9 A. The only way that they will approve
10 the loan was if it was CD secured.
11 Q. Okay. And he didn't have that CD or
12 money available? Or he didn't offer that to you, did he?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Okay. When did you give him this
15 information about it being turned down for the second
16 time?
17 A. I'm not quite certain, but it could
18 have been Monday or Tuesday.
19 Q. Tuesday being June the 4th of 1996?
20 A. Yes. Um-hum. (Witness nodding head
21 affirmatively).
22 Q. Okay.

link to the testimony (http://websleuths.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=606453)

Didn't Darlie look after paying the household and the business accounts? Basically writing cheques and logging them into a general ledger, etc. I don't think she did any collection calls on overdue accounts they had on the books. Of course, that wouldn't have stopped her from applying for the loan but it appears by the bank's officer that Darin was the one who did and not Darlie.

[JerseyGirl]

Did she say all four? Was he trying to secure four loans or one loan four times?
I assumed that she was referring to the four reasons that the loan was turned down.

[Jules]

Did she say all four? Was he trying to secure four loans or one loan four times?

I believe what she meant was all four reasons Darin was turned down for the loan.

Jules

[RobertStJames]

It can be explained by the trial testimony. Well some of it can anyway. Either Darin or the Loan's officer is lying.


Since the loan officer probably isn't lying about something so well documented, I have to assumed Darin's lying. Any time the trial transcripts get to financial matters, it's like pulling teeth. Darin (and Darlie's lawyers) argue about anything that could point to Darin having financial troubles. But I think it's safe to assume if Darin's bank is turning him down on a 5k loan, he was in financial difficulties well beyond the "ups and downs" of business. I wonder what "too many new accounts" means.

It seems like the loan was denied, twice, because Darin had no collateral, in itself surprising given that he owned a house, boat, two cars, and a business. Even more interesting is that he tries twice and still can't get the loan. He's told he can submit with CDs for collateral, but doesn't want to do that. Maybe he didn't have any. Maybe they required Darlie's signature. I can't tell. The second denial seems to have been relayed by phone since the loan officer isn't sure when she told Darin this information. In any case, it seems like Darin was pretty hot and heavy after that loan. Not sure why. Did the trial transcripts ever get to this mysterious truck he was supposed to be buying for Dana Stahl?


Even more curious (and probably unknowable) is whether Darlie was aware of any of this. Or, for that matter, if Dana knew about it. I've never been able to find a single quote, trial transcript or otherwise, from Dana Stahl. Nor any explanation as to just what role she had in Darin's business. I wouldn't think a 16yr old would be a lot of use from a technical perspective, but perhaps she did office work.

Anyway, another one of those mysteries surrounding this case, but one that seems more important than others as it was happening in the days right before the murder. Was that why all the financial papers were in the house that night? Because they were trying to find something to leverage for that loan? 5000k. That's not a lot of money. I wonder what was so important that Darin needed the money for.


RstJ

[JerseyGirl]

I wonder what "too many new accounts" means.
My guess is that he/they had opened up too many new credit card-type accounts within a short period of time.

[cami]

Since the loan officer probably isn't lying about something so well documented, I have to assumed Darin's lying. Any time the trial transcripts get to financial matters, it's like pulling teeth. Darin (and Darlie's lawyers) argue about anything that could point to Darin having financial troubles. But I think it's safe to assume if Darin's bank is turning him down on a 5k loan, he was in financial difficulties well beyond the "ups and downs" of business. I wonder what "too many new accounts" means.

It seems like the loan was denied, twice, because Darin had no collateral, in itself surprising given that he owned a house, boat, two cars, and a business. Even more interesting is that he tries twice and still can't get the loan. He's told he can submit with CDs for collateral, but doesn't want to do that. Maybe he didn't have any. Maybe they required Darlie's signature. I can't tell. The second denial seems to have been relayed by phone since the loan officer isn't sure when she told Darin this information. In any case, it seems like Darin was pretty hot and heavy after that loan. Not sure why. Did the trial transcripts ever get to this mysterious truck he was supposed to be buying for Dana Stahl?


Even more curious (and probably unknowable) is whether Darlie was aware of any of this. Or, for that matter, if Dana knew about it. I've never been able to find a single quote, trial transcript or otherwise, from Dana Stahl. Nor any explanation as to just what role she had in Darin's business. I wouldn't think a 16yr old would be a lot of use from a technical perspective, but perhaps she did office work.

Anyway, another one of those mysteries surrounding this case, but one that seems more important than others as it was happening in the days right before the murder. Was that why all the financial papers were in the house that night? Because they were trying to find something to leverage for that loan? 5000k. That's not a lot of money. I wonder what was so important that Darin needed the money for.


RstJ

Darlie had a trip to Cancun planned and they were planning on a trip to Pennsylvania so yes Darlie was aware of it.

Dana did not testify at Darlie's trial. Strange isn't it since she was apparently living there.

I don't remember if there is anything in the trial transcripts about the truck he was supposed to be buying for Dana. You can do a search of the trial transcripts here (http://www.justicefordarlie.net/transcripts.php)

[cami]

I believe what she meant was all four reasons Darin was turned down for the loan.

Jules

Thanks, that's what I get for skimming, LOL.

[mollymalone]

There were accounts that Darlie herself testified that SHE forgot to pay.
They were married, so it was THEY who were in financial difficulties, not just Darrin. :rolleyes:

[RobertStJames]

Darlie had a trip to Cancun planned and they were planning on a trip to Pennsylvania so yes Darlie was aware of it.

Dana did not testify at Darlie's trial. Strange isn't it since she was apparently living there.



Yeah. Of all people in this case, Dana is by far the most mysterious. She didn't testify, yet the state could have compelled her to do so. But neither did the defense call her. She was sworn in, true. But never called. And the Okie Williams testimony seems to have run into a major snag when Okie tried to explain what Darin was saying about the loan. I guess she was going to testify about the truck loan, but that never got out. Or perhaps she was going to say something else. I don't know. We don't have Darin's reaction to the loan being denied.


What do you know about Dana Stahl and how she fits into all this?


RstJ

[Goody]

Since the loan officer probably isn't lying about something so well documented, I have to assumed Darin's lying. Any time the trial transcripts get to financial matters, it's like pulling teeth. Darin (and Darlie's lawyers) argue about anything that could point to Darin having financial troubles. But I think it's safe to assume if Darin's bank is turning him down on a 5k loan, he was in financial difficulties well beyond the "ups and downs" of business. I wonder what "too many new accounts" means.
It means that they had either opened too many new accounts within the last so many months (whatever time limit the bank put on it) or they had had too many inquiries into their credit history from companies that might possibly be new accounts. In short. the Routiers were charged up to the hilt and had no income that was not already owed to someone else, at least on paper making them bad credit risks.



Even more curious (and probably unknowable) is whether Darlie was aware of any of this. Or, for that matter, if Dana knew about it. I've never been able to find a single quote, trial transcript or otherwise, from Dana Stahl. Nor any explanation as to just what role she had in Darin's business. I wouldn't think a 16yr old would be a lot of use from a technical perspective, but perhaps she did office work.
RstJ
I think she did what Darlie did in the early days, put those motherboards together or whatever they called them. Basia's daughter worked parttime in the shop and handled the book work, so I don't think Dana was needed in that area.

Anyway, another one of those mysteries surrounding this case, but one that seems more important than others as it was happening in the days right before the murder. Was that why all the financial papers were in the house that night? Because they were trying to find something to leverage for that loan? 5000k. That's not a lot of money. I wonder what was so important that Darin needed the money for.


RstJ
According to Basia's mother, Darlie told her that day that she needed $10,000. She had weddings coming up that she was committed to making things for, she had trips planned, they hadn't paid for their airline tickets to Pennsylvania yet and that meant 4 tickets would have to be purchased within the next two weeks, plus they needed money while they were there, and something was going on in Darin's family, too, and that was coming up.

In May, only a couple of weeks before the murders, they had taken the largest draw they ever had out of the company and it was apparently gone by June 1st, used to pay bills. The loan was obviously cash they needed to pay for things they couldn't charge, like the plane tickets, running money, etc. No talk was ever made about possibly cancelling any of the scheduled trips, not even the one to Cancun, which was just a getaway for Darlie and her friend Mercedes. The answer for them was obviously not to cut back, like most of us do, but to just get more money from wherever they could. The truck purchase, I think, was just a cover story they cooked up later to sort of soften the blow as they tried desperately in court to deny that they had financial difficulties because they were afraid financial difficulties would be viewed as a motive to kill the children.

I don't know what the papers being out meant, Maybe nothing. Maybe they were going over their options and sorting through the papers in hopes of coming up with a solution. I don't think they killed the children though for insurance money. They would have known that there was not enough insurance money to accomplish what they wanted to accomplish. Maybe they wondered if they could cash in the life insurance policies or maybe borrow from them. That might have been a temporary solution if they had that option.

[duffy]

To me the worst (I don't consider it odd) is the birthday party video. I haven't seen the video of the memorial prior to the b-day but I carefully examined Darlie's body language during silly string portion. Her smiles appeared very genuine without the slightest hint of being forced. I know she attributed her gaity to the drugs she was under the enfluence of but imo there aren't any or enough drugs on this planet that could make me crack a smile if one, let alone two of my children had been brutally murdered. I haven't seen ANY of the signs of trauma a crime victim experiences after being victimized.

For those who find it hard for someone like Darlie to have murdered her children it is completely understandable. The normal, rational mind could not fathom such horror but it brings to mind Susan Smith, Andrea Yates and unfortunatley the list goes on and on. Susan Smith did not receive the dp because of some sort of over-site on the part of the d.a. I believe she and Andrea (regardless of the emotional problems she experienced due to post-partum) should all get the death penalty.

[accordn2me]

Goody wrote:
Another interesting point is that Darin describes things as going in slow motion. That is a typical comment made by crime victims, that the events seemed so surreal they were in slow motion. Darlie never described anything like that at all. You would think even if she were guilty, she would experience that, but she never mentioned a word about it. It would be extraordinarily odd that she did experience it and just didn't mention it. It is so mindblowing that people can't help but comment on it. That flies in the face of the hysterical Darlie she wanted us to believe she was.

At this point (see 911 transcript below), it sounds like she is experiencing slow motion. I'll concede - she could be acting.

Goody & FM I've been thinking about the traumatic amnesia claim. I'm thinking I remember y'all saying you know something about that type of amnesia. If so, do people who experience it remember, in detail, the events leading up to the trauma?

Fritzy's Mom, do you remember most of everything that happened just before your car wreck, or did you forget the entire day?

02:59:22 Darlie Routier ...when are they going to be here... 03:00:22 911 Operator #1 ...5801 Eagle Drive ...5801 Eagle Drive... 03:03:28 Darlie Routier ...when are they going to be here... 03:03:29 911 Operator #1 ...going to be a stabbing... 03:05:20 Darlie Routier ...when are they going to be here... 03:06:20 911 Operator #1 ...ma'am ...they're on their way... 03:08:00 RADIO ...(unintelligible)... 03:08:08 Darlie Routier ...I gotta just sit here forever ...oh my God... 03:11:14 911 Operator #1 ...2:35... 03:12:05 Darie Routier ...who would do this ...who would do this... 03:13:09 Darin Routier ...(unintelligible)... 03:14:26 911 Operator #1 ...(sounds of typing on computer keyboard)... 03:16:08 911 Operator #1 ...ma'am ...how old are your boys... 03:18:20 Darin Routier ...what... 03:19:03 911 Operator #1 ...how old are your boys... 03:20:04 RADIO ...(unintelligible)... 03:20:21 911 Operator #1 ...no... 03:21:01 Darlie Routier ...seven and five... 03:22:17 911 Operator #1 ...ok... 03:23:08 Darlie Routier ...oh my God ...oh my God ...oh ...he's dead... 03:29:02 911 Operator #1 ...calm down ...can you... 03:29:03 Darlie Routier ...oh God ...Devon no ...oh my God... 03:30:27 SOUND ...(dog barking)... 03:35:02 911 Operator #1 ...is your name Darlie... 03:36:11 Darlie Routier ...yes... 03:36:26 911 Operator #1 ...this is her... 03:37:09 911 Operator #1 ...is your husband's name Darin... 03:38:22 Darlie Routier ...yes ...please hurry ...God they're taking forever...

[Leve]

Since the loan officer probably isn't lying about something so well documented, I have to assumed Darin's lying. Any time the trial transcripts get to financial matters, it's like pulling teeth. Darin (and Darlie's lawyers) argue about anything that could point to Darin having financial troubles. But I think it's safe to assume if Darin's bank is turning him down on a 5k loan, he was in financial difficulties well beyond the "ups and downs" of business. I wonder what "too many new accounts" means.

It seems like the loan was denied, twice, because Darin had no collateral, in itself surprising given that he owned a house, boat, two cars, and a business. Even more interesting is that he tries twice and still can't get the loan. He's told he can submit with CDs for collateral, but doesn't want to do that. Maybe he didn't have any. Maybe they required Darlie's signature. I can't tell. The second denial seems to have been relayed by phone since the loan officer isn't sure when she told Darin this information. In any case, it seems like Darin was pretty hot and heavy after that loan. Not sure why. Did the trial transcripts ever get to this mysterious truck he was supposed to be buying for Dana Stahl?


Even more curious (and probably unknowable) is whether Darlie was aware of any of this. Or, for that matter, if Dana knew about it. I've never been able to find a single quote, trial transcript or otherwise, from Dana Stahl. Nor any explanation as to just what role she had in Darin's business. I wouldn't think a 16yr old would be a lot of use from a technical perspective, but perhaps she did office work.

Anyway, another one of those mysteries surrounding this case, but one that seems more important than others as it was happening in the days right before the murder. Was that why all the financial papers were in the house that night? Because they were trying to find something to leverage for that loan? 5000k. That's not a lot of money. I wonder what was so important that Darin needed the money for.


RstJ
I hope ya'll don't mind my jumping in here. I'm a loan officer. This sounds to me like he was denied an unsecured loan. Then they re-submitted it with collateral (probably a vehicle of some sort) but he was denied again. The only way they would do the loan was with a CD - certificate of deposit - as collateral. Basically, IMO, their credit was completely shot if this is the only type of loan the bank was willing to give. A CD loan is against money you already have in the bank. If you don't pay it - they just take your money already on deposit. Where I work, we don't even pull a credit report or update employment info ect on a CD secured loan. Anybody can get one as long as they have the money in the bank. You are basically borrowing from yourself but paying interest to the bank for the privilege.

[Jeana (DP)]

I hope ya'll don't mind my jumping in here. I'm a loan officer. This sounds to me like he was denied an unsecured loan. Then they re-submitted it with collateral (probably a vehicle of some sort) but he was denied again. The only way they would do the loan was with a CD - certificate of deposit - as collateral. Basically, IMO, their credit was completely shot if this is the only type of loan the bank was willing to give. A CD loan is against money you already have in the bank. If you don't pay it - they just take your money already on deposit. Where I work, we don't even pull a credit report or update employment info ect on a CD secured loan. Anybody can get one as long as they have the money in the bank. You are basically borrowing from yourself but paying interest to the bank for the privilege.


Jump away!! Welcome to Websleuths and thanks for the info.

[Goody]

At this point (see 911 transcript below), it sounds like she is experiencing slow motion. I'll concede - she could be acting.

02:59:22 Darlie Routier ...when are they going to be here... 03:00:22 911 Operator #1 ...5801 Eagle Drive ...5801 Eagle Drive... 03:03:28 Darlie Routier ...when are they going to be here... 03:03:29 911 Operator #1 ...going to be a stabbing... 03:05:20 Darlie Routier ...when are they going to be here... 03:06:20 911 Operator #1 ...ma'am ...they're on their way... 03:08:00 RADIO ...(unintelligible)... 03:08:08 Darlie Routier ...I gotta just sit here forever ...oh my God... 03:11:14 911 Operator #1 ...2:35... 03:12:05 Darie Routier ...who would do this ...who would do this... 03:13:09 Darin Routier ...(unintelligible)... 03:14:26 911 Operator #1 ...(sounds of typing on computer keyboard)... 03:16:08 911 Operator #1 ...ma'am ...how old are your boys... 03:18:20 Darin Routier ...what... 03:19:03 911 Operator #1 ...how old are your boys... 03:20:04 RADIO ...(unintelligible)... 03:20:21 911 Operator #1 ...no... 03:21:01 Darlie Routier ...seven and five... 03:22:17 911 Operator #1 ...ok... 03:23:08 Darlie Routier ...oh my God ...oh my God ...oh ...he's dead... 03:29:02 911 Operator #1 ...calm down ...can you... 03:29:03 Darlie Routier ...oh God ...Devon no ...oh my God... 03:30:27 SOUND ...(dog barking)... 03:35:02 911 Operator #1 ...is your name Darlie... 03:36:11 Darlie Routier ...yes... 03:36:26 911 Operator #1 ...this is her... 03:37:09 911 Operator #1 ...is your husband's name Darin... 03:38:22 Darlie Routier ...yes ...please hurry ...God they're taking forever...
What slow motion? She was so hyper, she could barely talk until she says....Darin, somebody came in here and did this intentionally! Darlie was definitely not in slow motion during that call.


Goody & FM I've been thinking about the traumatic amnesia claim. I'm thinking I remember y'all saying you know something about that type of amnesia. If so, do people who experience it remember, in detail, the events leading up to the trauma?
Traumatic amnesia purely as an emotional reaction of an event is very, very rare. It usually lasts no longer than about three months and full memory, depending on what you call full, usually occurs. People who suffer head trauma, that would be a good hard hit on the head that causes serious injury, including concussion, skull fracture, etc. is the other kind of traumatic amnesia. Memory is not always returned, and often not totally, but there is also often brain damage involved.

Darlie's camp likes to claim she could have gotten a hit on the head and just doesn't remember it, but that is not even close to being serious enough to cause the kind of injury it would take to create the medical TA. There is no way she had a skull fracture or concussion that the doctors missed. The argument is ridiculous.

Yes, I experienced some mild TA when I lost my son. He was hit by a car at age 6. I became so hysterical and was sobbing so hard at the funeral and experienced the slow motion thingy. For years I was angry at my mother for not coming to the funeral. I had no memory of her presence there at all. Then many years later when I finally said something, she blurted out, "Why, I was, too, there!" I was confused for awhile, but as she defended herself the lights finally came on. It was weird because that is sort of what it was like. Dark spots suddenly lit enough to where I could see what was there...My Mother and stepfather standing in the background not knowing what they should do.

I believe that Darlie could have suffered from TA for the time it took for the murders to have occurred, and I believe that if nothing had happened to motivate her to remember she might not remember for years. But she had all kinds of prods....the arrest, the media reports portraying her as a monster, the trial, the death penalty, death row, even hypnosis, and still she doesn't remember? I don't think so. I don't believe anyone who doesn't have brain damage could forget that completely for longer than a few months. I think she is lying about the TA. And that she is lying because she knows it is easy to get tripped up in lies, so it is safer to remember nothing than to try to lie her way through all the pitfuls.