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View Full Version : Cause of Death-Charles and Braden Powell. **Warning-Graphic Thread**



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believe09
02-07-2012, 12:12 PM
This is for discussion of the additional injuries suffered by the Powell boys and why they might have been inflicted.

Developing Story Here (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57372422-504083/josh-powells-final-voicemail-i-am-not-able-to-live-without-my-sons/)

jjenny
02-07-2012, 12:16 PM
My guess is the injuries were inflicted to incapacitate the children so they couldn't try to escape the fire (however small chance of that was). This appears to be a very well planned murder-suicide and JP didn't want to leave anything to chance.

Cubby
02-07-2012, 12:17 PM
OMG, I just read the news. I'm in shock. As if what Josh did to his sons wasn't bad enough already.

I'm in tears. That the boys did not die from the injuries their father inflicted on them is just heartbreaking.

Oh dear God, why?

I now have zero doubt Josh was a monster. A living demon interested only in how much pain he could inflict on others.

believe09
02-07-2012, 12:17 PM
I think he inflicted the injuries to punish them for talking.

mamamia54
02-07-2012, 12:18 PM
I'm wondering how he corralled both boys to be able to do what he did. I would think that if the one that was hit second saw his brother being hit, he would run. I just can't wrap my mind around all this.

TallCoolOne
02-07-2012, 12:19 PM
Oh my lord. I am without words.

This makes me hurt.

21merc7
02-07-2012, 12:19 PM
I'm wondering how he corralled both boys to be able to do what he did. I would think that if the one that was hit second saw his brother being hit, he would run. I just can't wrap my mind around all this.

He may have started the fire already, so too afraid to run. One boy had 2 wounds, perhaps meaning trying to stop dad from harming the 1st.

jjenny
02-07-2012, 12:21 PM
He may have started the fire already, so too afraid to run. One boy had 2 wounds, perhaps meaning trying to stop dad from harming the 1st.

That fire spread very fast because he used gasoline so I really doubt he started the fire first. He would have passed out from carbon monoxide poisoning.

believe09
02-07-2012, 12:22 PM
How do you hatchet a child in the throat? I assume you hold them down. I assume the other ran or reacted, hence the two blows.

jjenny
02-07-2012, 12:23 PM
How do you hatchet a child in the throat? I assume you hold them down. I assume the other ran or reacted, hence the two blows.

He could have called the children into the room one by one.

mamamia54
02-07-2012, 12:26 PM
But even if he called them in one by one, the first one had to scream, which would have brought in the second. He had to be a monster to do all this. I guess desperation can do things to a person, but sometime, somewhere, somehow if a person is sane, they would wake up and say, "WHAT THE HELL AM I DOING"? Apparently he didn't and apparently the insanity just took over.

Hopeful One
02-07-2012, 12:26 PM
I posted on the first thread and now my post is gone. I would have thought they would be merged with this one??

I just can't believe this. As if things couldn't get any worse???

What a sick individual - to use a hatchet on his own children. It's beyond disgusting. He didn't care if those children suffered. It's almost as if he wanted them to suffer!

May Josh Powell rot in hell. I hope I'm allowed to say that here. He's the lowest of the low the doesn't even deserve to be called human.

jjenny
02-07-2012, 12:27 PM
Yes, one of the children might have tried to run away after seeing (hearing) what happened to his brother, therefore the hatchet injury to both head and neck on the second child.

mamamia54
02-07-2012, 12:29 PM
Just sitting here shaking my head and cringing.

Jacie Estes
02-07-2012, 12:30 PM
But even if he called them in one by one, the first one had to scream, which would have brought in the second. He had to be a monster to do all this. I guess desperation can do things to a person, but sometime, somewhere, somehow if a person is sane, they would wake up and say, "WHAT THE HELL AM I DOING"? Apparently he didn't and apparently the insanity just took over.

This was not insanity; these were cold, calculated and evil acts of murder.

twall
02-07-2012, 12:30 PM
I'm wondering how he corralled both boys to be able to do what he did. I would think that if the one that was hit second saw his brother being hit, he would run. I just can't wrap my mind around all this.

On GMA they said he corralled them in a room behind the garage where the gas cans had been readied. He then lit the flames and attacked them. If that is the case how did they end up in the center of the house? See story at second link which contradicts the GMA report. :waitasec:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/josh-powells-voice-mail-explosion-killed-kids-15527878

http://www.king5.com/news/local/Gasoline-found-all-over-the-house-of-Josh-Powell-138812474.html

jjenny
02-07-2012, 12:31 PM
Yes, clearly very calculated to the last little detail, such as telling people to turn utilities off. Although why in the world he was worried about utilities is beyond my understanding, but maybe he was obsessed with utility bills while alive and couldn't let go?

mamamia54
02-07-2012, 12:31 PM
I still say you've GOT to be insane to do something like this to your children.

mck16
02-07-2012, 12:31 PM
How do you hatchet a child in the throat? I assume you hold them down. I assume the other ran or reacted, hence the two blows.

In the accounting I read it said 'neck'. I assumed it was the back of the neck and not the throat. Is there a report out there that says specifically 'throat'. It really doesn't matter whichever is horrendous. Beyond what I can imagine. He was pure evil. jmo

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 12:32 PM
I'm having a difficult time with the timeline and details !?

1 - This was a Sunday. Do government case workers usually work on the weekends? They don't in my state.

2 - Is it SOP for 'supervised visitation' to occur at the home of the parent who is being supervised? Is this a discretionary call on behalf of the case worker/judge ? If so, why was this allowed?

3 - If the kids were attacked with a hatchet first and then the house suddenly 'erupted into a ball of flames', wouldn't they have died of burns/trauma instead of smoke inhalation?

4- I understand cause/effect of gas and a match but rarely does a house explode in the blink of an eye (like it does in the movies.)

I'm just having a hard time with the information that's been reported thus far and would like to know more about the case worker and the EXACT details of his/her story.

noZme
02-07-2012, 12:33 PM
Did the monster hug the children & say "daddy loves you,"?
ULGH!

There was not much time but I keep thinking he must have said something.
Even young kids know the smell of gasoline & that it is dangerous to strike a match.

Cubby
02-07-2012, 12:37 PM
I posted on the first thread and now my post is gone. I would have thought they would be merged with this one??

I just can't believe this. As if things couldn't get any worse???

What a sick individual - to use a hatchet on his own children. It's beyond disgusting. He didn't care if those children suffered. It's almost as if he wanted them to suffer!

May Josh Powell rot in hell. I hope I'm allowed to say that here. He's the lowest of the low the doesn't even deserve to be called human.

He wanted those left behind to suffer. His selfish actions demonstrate that clearly. Seriously, to leave instructions where to find his money, demonstrates just how sick and evil this man is.


Edited to move my additional comments to the appropriate thread.

jjenny
02-07-2012, 12:38 PM
I'm having a difficult time with the timeline and details !?

1 - This was a Sunday. Do government case workers usually work on the weekends? They don't in my state.

2 - Is it SOP for 'supervised visitation' to occur at the home of the parent who is being supervised? Is this a discretionary call on behalf of the case worker/judge ? If so, why was this allowed?

3 - If the kids were attacked with a hatchet first and then the house suddenly 'erupted into a ball of flames', wouldn't they have died of burns/trauma instead of smoke inhalation?

4- I understand cause/effect of gas and a match but rarely does a house explode in the blink of an eye (like it does in the movies.)

I'm just having a hard time with the information that's been reported thus far and would like to know more about the case worker and the EXACT details of his/her story.
I am also very curious about the exact time line of events.
He also send a bunch of e-mails, voice mails. When was he doing all that? If before the children showed up, a very risky move that could have ended up ruining his plans.

Cubby
02-07-2012, 12:39 PM
In the accounting I read it said 'neck'. I assumed it was the back of the neck and not the throat. Is there a report out there that says specifically 'throat'. It really doesn't matter whichever is horrendous. Beyond what I can imagine. He was pure evil. jmo


It had to be the neck. If it were the throat that injury would likely have been the COD.

jjenny
02-07-2012, 12:40 PM
It had to be the neck. If it were the throat that injury would likely have been the COD.

Not necessarily. Some people have survived their throat slashed.

CHERIE.T
02-07-2012, 12:41 PM
Josh was a monster! I read this report earlier today, grabbed another cup of coffee and rubbed my eyes. I thought I was misreading the article.
Josh planned this well in advance. What he did to the boys is unconscionable, unthinkable.
Prayers for the Cox family. How are they coping? :(

twall
02-07-2012, 12:41 PM
On Sunday, Powell's boys came for a routine supervised visit. They ran ahead, the social worker falling behind. Powell then locked the door, used a hatchet on his kids, and lit the house on fire.

Ultimately, Powell and both boys died of smoke inhalation, Pierce County Medical Examiner's Office investigator Melissa Baker said Monday evening.

But they also suffered "chop injuries" that contributed to their deaths — 7-year-old Charles was struck on his neck and 5-year-old Braden had injuries to both his head and neck, Baker said.

Pierce County Sheriff's Detective Ed Troyer said investigators found a hatchet that they believe was used on the boys.

"We recovered a hatchet — a small ax," he said. "It was right there with the bodies."

http://www.rgj.com/article/20120207/NEWS13/120207002/Missing-Utah-mom-case-Dad-who-killed-self-sons-blaze-left-voicemail-watch-video-report-

believe09
02-07-2012, 12:42 PM
You can set email to auto deliver. I am assuming that this is what he did.

jjenny
02-07-2012, 12:45 PM
You can set email to auto deliver. I am assuming that this is what he did.

And voicemails? And what difference would it make if emails were on auto delivery or not? The emails still arrived before the fire started. Clearly he could have send them himself without setting on auto. My question is-did he do all that before or after children arrived at his home?

CharlestonGal
02-07-2012, 12:47 PM
What an evil, evil man. For a family to support such evil is pretty much equally evil in my eyes. I'm just sitting here shaking my head wondering where people like this come from. Evil, evil, evil.

twall
02-07-2012, 12:50 PM
I'm having a difficult time with the timeline and details !?

1 - This was a Sunday. Do government case workers usually work on the weekends? They don't in my state.

2 - Is it SOP for 'supervised visitation' to occur at the home of the parent who is being supervised? Is this a discretionary call on behalf of the case worker/judge ? If so, why was this allowed?

3 - If the kids were attacked with a hatchet first and then the house suddenly 'erupted into a ball of flames', wouldn't they have died of burns/trauma instead of smoke inhalation?

4- I understand cause/effect of gas and a match but rarely does a house explode in the blink of an eye (like it does in the movies.)

I'm just having a hard time with the information that's been reported thus far and would like to know more about the case worker and the EXACT details of his/her story.

1 & 2 - You can find the answers in this article
http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/crime-law/caseworker-who-witness-explosion-powell-home-beyon/nHWbb/

3 - Sorry, don't know, I'm not a medical professional!

4. Watch Papa's video posted here:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Josh Powell's House in WA blows up - Thread #2

mck16
02-07-2012, 12:51 PM
What an evil, evil man. For a family to support such evil is pretty much equally evil in my eyes. I'm just sitting here shaking my head wondering where people like this come from. Evil, evil, evil.

As far as I am concerned they come straight from hell. Even the devil has his angels. jmo

cinsbythesea
02-07-2012, 12:53 PM
This just makes me nauseous and teary at the same time. It just keeps getting worse. My one hope, when I read about the house explosion, was that the boys went quickly and didn't suffer a moment's worth of fear. That hope was deflated with this newest revelation. I hope Josh Powell is in the lowest, hottest level of hell. What an evil, twisted "human being" he was. He's amongst the lowest of the low... my heart just aches for those babies...

jjenny
02-07-2012, 12:53 PM
1 & 2 - You can find the answers in this article
http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/crime-law/caseworker-who-witness-explosion-powell-home-beyon/nHWbb/

3 - Sorry, don't know, I'm not a medical professional!

4. Watch Papa's video posted here:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Josh Powell's House in WA blows up - Thread #2 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7577112&postcount=438)

The house didn't "blow up." He burned it down using gasoline. Carbon monoxide poisoning is a standard cause of death for someone who dies in a fire.

"The characteristic biphasic distribution of carboxyhemoglobin in fire victims together with other observations suggest that the principal causes of death are carbon monoxide followed by carbon dioxide poisoning and/or oxygen deficiency, while the influence of heat is considered to be of minor importance."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6423473

krimekat
02-07-2012, 12:55 PM
I still say you've GOT to be insane to do something like this to your children.

or just plain demented and/or evil.

I don't think Josh was insane but full of HATE (evil) :maddening:

talk about a GUILTY conscience.

Cubby
02-07-2012, 12:56 PM
Not necessarily. Some people have survived their throat slashed.


True.

twall
02-07-2012, 12:58 PM
The house didn't "blow up." He burned it down using gasoline. I think smoke inhalation is a standard cause of death for someone who dies in a fire.

Believe me, the house blew up. The gas can exploded. Did you read any of the headlines?
If he didn't blow it up then why did the neighbors report feeling earthquake like tremors?

Wise Old Owl
02-07-2012, 12:59 PM
I'm wondering how he corralled both boys to be able to do what he did. I would think that if the one that was hit second saw his brother being hit, he would run. I just can't wrap my mind around all this.
I have been thinking the same thing. Maybe he told one to go to the potty - after all he had just finished with a car ride - potty break? There were only minutes from when the boys came through the door and the explosion - but it doesn't take long and one could have ran to the bathroom having to go after the ride - KWIM?

21merc7
02-07-2012, 01:02 PM
Link to house fire: (there is another link, a news station, where you can even hear the explosion, at work with no speakers so not sure if this is the one. When the video shakes is the exploding.)

http://www.king5.com/video/featured-videos/Home-video-of-Josh-Powell-home-fire-138755554.html

mck16
02-07-2012, 01:03 PM
I have been thinking the same thing. Maybe he told one to go to the potty - after all he had just finished with a car ride - potty break? There were only minutes from when the boys came through the door and the explosion - but it doesn't take long and one could have ran to the bathroom having to go after the ride - KWIM?

I was also thinking one scenario could have been that he set the fire and when the boys saw this he told them to lay down on the floor. Probably having learned that in school they didn't hesitate. When he struck one of the children the other got up to run and he had to strike more than once. jmo

DLT88
02-07-2012, 01:05 PM
OMG, I just read the news. I'm in shock. As if what Josh did to his sons wasn't bad enough already.

I'm in tears. That the boys did not die from the injuries their father inflicted on them is just heartbreaking.

Oh dear God, why?

I now have zero doubt Josh was a monster. A living demon interested only in how much pain he could inflict on others.

Me, too! I'm shaking!!!! How can a father be so violent to two little innocent loving boy??!!! I'm horrified. Josh was a SERIAL MURDERER. Maybe he didn't even start with Susan since he like to brag that mines are excellent places to hide bodies. May he ROT for everything. Those poor little boys. Have to remember, as with Zahra, these boys are NOT suffering now and are full of joy and were greeted with a great love and they saw the sparkling face of their mother who is holding both of them right now.

jjenny
02-07-2012, 01:06 PM
Believe me, the house blew up. The gas can exploded. Did you read any of the headlines?
If he didn't blow it up then why did the neighbors report feeling earthquake like tremors?

Well I actually read beyond the headlines. He set a fire. Carbon monoxide poisoning is a standard cause of death in a fire. If they died in an explosion then they would have had blunt force trauma and injuries for cause of death consistent with an explosion. Their cause of death is exactly the cause of death in fire victims.

Cubby
02-07-2012, 01:06 PM
This just makes me nauseous and teary at the same time. It just keeps getting worse. My one hope, when I read about the house explosion, was that the boys went quickly and didn't suffer a moment's worth of fear. That hope was deflated with this newest revelation. I hope Josh Powell is in the lowest, hottest level of hell. What an evil, twisted "human being" he was. He's amongst the lowest of the low... my heart just aches for those babies...


My thoughts exactly. Thank you for putting into words what I wasn't able to express myself.

sherbetjello
02-07-2012, 01:08 PM
I'm just now reading this thread, and I can't even make it to page two of the thread because the statement from the Powells defending his actions has me so mad I can't see straight.

annalia
02-07-2012, 01:12 PM
I'm wondering how he corralled both boys to be able to do what he did. I would think that if the one that was hit second saw his brother being hit, he would run. I just can't wrap my mind around all this.

It's so difficult to even write about this thinking about the suffering he inflicted on the boys.

It happened so quickly from the time they went inside until the fire. Could he have swung the ax as soon as he locked the door, hitting Charlie first, Braden tried to run and was hit twice, then he dragged the boys bodies, while they were still alive, to where they were found?

sherbetjello
02-07-2012, 01:13 PM
1 - This was a Sunday. Do government case workers usually work on the weekends? They don't in my state.



In one of the threads here about the fire, it was said that the person taking the children was not affiliated with the gov but hired as an outside resource. Or something to that affect, really sorry I can't think of good words at this moment.

I feel really bad for this woman today, because I have little doubt now that she didn't just witness the fire happen but the screams from within the home, too.

This is madness.

twall
02-07-2012, 01:14 PM
Well I actually read beyond the headlines. He set a fire. Carbon monoxide poisoning is a standard cause of death in a fire. If they died in an explosion then they would have had blunt force trauma and injuries for cause of death consistent with an explosion. Their cause of death is exactly the cause of death in fire victims.

I never said their COD was not accurate.
You said the house did not blow up, or explode, when that is exactly what it did.
It blew the roof off!

"All the walls in the house were on fire, almost immediately," neighbor Ryan Mickle told CNN affiliate KIRO, adding that the blast "shook my whole house."

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-02-05/us/us_washington-powell-explosion_1_social-worker-josh-powell-house-collapse?_s=PM:US

Quiche
02-07-2012, 01:16 PM
He broke their necks, imo, so they couldn't escape. If they died of carbon monoxide poisoning, that means they were alive in the fire. :mad:

At first I thought the "gas" smell was natural gas, but are we talking gasoline? Or maybe it was both? That would explain the rapid combustion and multiple explosions.

The hatchet (rather than axe) makes me wonder if that was Susan's murder weapon as well. With the hatchet, much more physical force would be needed to kill with, but not if your aim was to incapacitate and leave to suffer and wonder (as in: Mommy in the trunk). I wonder how sharp it had been honed to be? I bet there is a file found amongst the ruins.

Josh lived a coward and died a coward. :dervish: The demons below have a new plaything, I'm sure they'll have a field day with this punk.
:devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:

MOO

mamamia54
02-07-2012, 01:18 PM
This entire thing has me shocked into silence.

jjenny
02-07-2012, 01:19 PM
No, I think the smell of gas was gasoline, not natural gas.

DLT88
02-07-2012, 01:20 PM
I think he inflicted the injuries to punish them for talking.

The reason I think you are right (and I'm shaking as I write this) is that the murder was personal. The choice of a hatchet has got to the worst way to try and kill someone and to cause the most fear and suffering. It was to punish. Josh was a sadist. He wanted them to suffer and for that he will pay with his soul. They are not suffering now -- but he IS which is how it should be. Death did not end his suffering because his soul is in horrible torment being locked to the earth plane and having to reside on the lowest realms of hell where the beings torture each other.

HOW COULD THEY NOT PROTECT THESE BOYS?! Just how BIG of a sign did they need that something horrible was going to happen and this man was extremely unstable and a high suspect of his wife's murder?!! Not only that, he apparently drove around with her body in the trunk while he two sons rode along with it. And they said, "if only we knew" . OH PLEASE!

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 01:21 PM
1 & 2 - You can find the answers in this article
http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/crime-law/caseworker-who-witness-explosion-powell-home-beyon/nHWbb/

3 - Sorry, don't know, I'm not a medical professional!

4. Watch Papa's video posted here:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Josh Powell's House in WA blows up - Thread #2 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7577112&postcount=438)

Thanks! I understand what the case worker is saying, I'm just having a difficult time with her account (never mind the fact it was on a Sunday - Superbowl Sunday) I read the other posts and I see where I'm not alone in my thoughts. If a house explodes or erupts into flames, the cause of death isn't smoke inhalation. The house wasn't rigged with explosives and smoke inhalation takes time. You can't have it both ways. The coroner was obviously able to make a determination regarding the cause of death which means their bodies had to VERY well intact in order to note the external (neck) injuries.. as well as the soft tissue of the lungs. Based on the images and media reports, one could only conclude there would be nothing left except charred remains. I do not believe we have all the details and while I will reserve judgement until we do, my "gut" tells me someone dropped the ball.

Anyone have an overhead view of the house/area? How far away was the case worker when she called for help? Was she on the porch, her car, where exactly, in relation to the house? The kids would have had to BOLT out her car and RUN into the house giving JP the opportunity to lock her out - then attack them - then light a match. While I'm sure the kids may have wanted to see their dad, I don't see them racing each other inside the house leaving the case worker in the dust.

I keep thinking of the tragedy involving Dr. William Petit's wife and children and the window of opportunity that was missed (due to the time it takes for a fire caused by gasoline & a match to gain some momentum). I understand the dwellings are vastly different but the cause of the fire(s) were not.

Many, many questions. Too many. I hope we get a full account that fits the details of what we know happened. It seems as though JP was able to ANTICIPATE the boys would leave the case worker behind. How did he know? What if she had gone in the house before the boys?

jjenny
02-07-2012, 01:26 PM
No, the cause of death is consistent with a fire. Carbon monoxide poisoning is a principal cause of death in fire victims.
If it were an explosion I presume cause of death would be blunt force trauma.
The bodies have to be in relatively good condition since the coroner was able to figure out that wounds to neck/head didn't kill the children.
But I also don't think that timeline of "moments" is making much sense.

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 01:32 PM
In one of the threads here about the fire, it was said that the person taking the children was not affiliated with the gov but hired as an outside resource. Or something to that affect, really sorry I can't think of good words at this moment.

I feel really bad for this woman today, because I have little doubt now that she didn't just witness the fire happen but the screams from within the home, too.

This is madness.

This begs even more questions (re; outside resource) ???

I am quite sure you are correct about what she heard & saw. My question is why she isn't sharing it? I am not comfortable with her statements made in various articles. Not at all.

annalia
02-07-2012, 01:32 PM
Thanks! I understand what the case worker is saying, I'm just having a difficult time with her account (never mind the fact it was on a Sunday - Superbowl Sunday) I read the other posts and I see where I'm not alone in my thoughts. If a house explodes or erupts into flames, the cause of death isn't smoke inhalation. The house wasn't rigged with explosives and smoke inhalation takes time. You can't have it both ways. The coroner was obviously able to make a determination regarding the cause of death which means their bodies had to VERY well intact in order to note the external (neck) injuries.. as well as the soft tissue of the lungs. Based on the images and media reports, one could only conclude there would be nothing left except charred remains. I do not believe we have all the details and while I will reserve judgement until we do, my "gut" tells me someone dropped the ball.

Anyone have an overhead view of the house/area? How far away was the case worker when she called for help? Was she on the porch, her car, where exactly, in relation to the house? The kids would have had to BOLT out her car and RUN into the house giving JP the opportunity to lock her out - then attack them - then light a match. While I'm sure the kids may have wanted to see their dad, I don't see them racing each other inside the house leaving the case worker in the dust.

I keep thinking of the tragedy involving Dr. William Petit's wife and children and the window of opportunity that was missed (due to the time it takes for a fire caused by gasoline & a match to gain some momentum). I understand the dwellings are vastly different but the cause of the fire(s) were not.

Many, many questions. Too many. I hope we get a full account that fits the details of what we know happened. It seems as though JP was able to ANTICIPATE the boys would leave the case worker behind. How did he know? What if she had gone in the house before the boys?


My bolding

It was reported that she was on her way back to the car to call supervisors when the house exploded. I don't think it was that they boys left her in the dust, they ran ahead. All it would take was for her to be a step or two behind them for JP to pull them in and lock the door on her.

And it could have all happened very quickly, these were two very small boys, it wouldn't have taken much for him to overpower them. Attacking them and lighting a match in a house that had already been doused with all that gasoline didn't have to take very long.

JMHO

jjenny
02-07-2012, 01:34 PM
My bolding

It was reported that she was on her way back to the car to call supervisors when the house exploded. I don't think it was that they boys left her in the dust, they ran ahead. All it would take was for her to be a step or two behind them for JP to pull them in and lock the door on her.

And it could have all happened very quickly, these were two very small boys, it wouldn't have taken much for him to overpower them. Attacking them and lighting a match in a house that had already been doused with all that gasoline didn't have to take very long.

JMHO

All the e-mails and voice mails appears to have been send before the fire. If it truly taken moments or minutes after the children showed up then he clearly would have to send e-mails and voice mails before the children showed up. It seems to me like that could have ruined his plans but what do I know.

annalia
02-07-2012, 01:36 PM
This begs even more questions (re; outside resource) ???

I am quite sure you are correct about what she heard & saw. My question is why she isn't sharing it? I am not comfortable with her statements made in various articles. Not at all.


Why isn't she sharing it with who, the media? It sounds like she did speak to officials.

We can only imagine how traumatized she must be, can't blame her for not speaking to the media.

JMHO

wenwe4
02-07-2012, 01:37 PM
I'm having a difficult time with the timeline and details !?

1 - This was a Sunday. Do government case workers usually work on the weekends? They don't in my state.

2 - Is it SOP for 'supervised visitation' to occur at the home of the parent who is being supervised? Is this a discretionary call on behalf of the case worker/judge ? If so, why was this allowed?

3 - If the kids were attacked with a hatchet first and then the house suddenly 'erupted into a ball of flames', wouldn't they have died of burns/trauma instead of smoke inhalation?

4- I understand cause/effect of gas and a match but rarely does a house explode in the blink of an eye (like it does in the movies.)

I'm just having a hard time with the information that's been reported thus far and would like to know more about the case worker and the EXACT details of his/her story.

1) This was not a CPS government Social Worker, CPS contracted another agency to do the supervised visits and that person is the one who transported the children. Those visit supervisors must offer flexible visit days and times to work with parents work schedules. It is very common that parents have visits on Sundays (especially if they work fulltime). This contracted visit supervisor did exactly as she was supposed to do. CPS was complying with a court order. . . . they have no authority to override a Judges order for visitation in the home.

2) Judge ordered visits in the home after Josh complained about having visits at the visitation center (contracted agency center) with other families around due to his high notariety in this case. He effectively argued to the court that he deserved more privacy during his visits and was granted that per court order.

3) See other posters comments . . . carbon monoxide/smoke inhallation is what ultimately killed them . . . the hatchet cuts and burns were also noted but not the cause of death.

4) House burned violently . . . windows blew out . . .


I am also very curious about the exact time line of events.
He also send a bunch of e-mails, voice mails. When was he doing all that? If before the children showed up, a very risky move that could have ended up ruining his plans.

Kids had a scheduled time to arrive and visit supervisors are trained to be on time and let the parents know if they are running late. He knew exactly (within a few minutes) of their arrival time. Also it takes a few minutes to get the kids out of seatbelts and take them both up to the door. Josh could have sent them as soon as he saw visit supervisor show up.


Thanks! I understand what the case worker is saying, I'm just having a difficult time with her account (never mind the fact it was on a Sunday - Superbowl Sunday) I read the other posts and I see where I'm not alone in my thoughts. If a house explodes or erupts into flames, the cause of death isn't smoke inhalation. The house wasn't rigged with explosives and smoke inhalation takes time. You can't have it both ways. The coroner was obviously able to make a determination regarding the cause of death which means their bodies had to VERY well intact in order to note the external (neck) injuries.. as well as the soft tissue of the lungs. Based on the images and media reports, one could only conclude there would be nothing left except charred remains. I do not believe we have all the details and while I will reserve judgement until we do, my "gut" tells me someone dropped the ball.

Anyone have an overhead view of the house/area? How far away was the case worker when she called for help? Was she on the porch, her car, where exactly, in relation to the house? The kids would have had to BOLT out her car and RUN into the house giving JP the opportunity to lock her out - then attack them - then light a match. While I'm sure the kids may have wanted to see their dad, I don't see them racing each other inside the house leaving the case worker in the dust.

I keep thinking of the tragedy involving Dr. William Petit's wife and children and the window of opportunity that was missed (due to the time it takes for a fire caused by gasoline & a match to gain some momentum). I understand the dwellings are vastly different but the cause of the fire(s) were not.

Many, many questions. Too many. I hope we get a full account that fits the details of what we know happened.

Regarding the children going into the house before the case worker . . . that is exactly how they are trained to follow the children into the home (lest you would be leaving children unattended outside of the home where something terrible could possibly happen).

I have included the link to verify this was not a CPS government worker but a contracted visit supervisor who typically works weekends/evenings, etc. around parent work schedules and foster/kin schedules as well as the kids schedules (ie: school/daycare/sports).

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2017435088_dshs06m.htm

MarthaM
02-07-2012, 01:38 PM
I thought it was reported that the explosions that were heard were the gas cans exploding and the windows blowing out from the fire. I didn't hear anything about the house itself exploding.

Anyway, I think JP was all about control, and on Sunday he took his power over the kids to the nth degree. He may have told the boys they had to do exactly what he said so that they could see Mommy again, and they would have. I can't picture either of them trying to run or get away against that. The ME should be able to tell whether the blows were inflicted while they were standing or laying down; my thought when I first heard about this is that he had them lie down and then he struck them quickly.

annalia
02-07-2012, 01:39 PM
All the e-mails and voice mails appears to have been send before the fire. If it truly taken moments or minutes after the children showed up then he clearly would have to send e-mails and voice mails before the children showed up. It seems to me like that could have ruined his plans but what do I know.

My bolding

Not necessarily, it takes a minute to send off emails. They could have been written and saved and sent when he saw the car come up, or sent when he knew they were on their way. No one would have been close enough to stop anything, and it's doubtful that everyone was on their computer ready to receive the email at the exact moment he sent them.

JMHO

jjenny
02-07-2012, 01:39 PM
The voicemal was reportedly left 20 minutes before the fire. Clearly he would have to leave it before the children showed up, since it wouldn't take 20 minutes for children to get out of their car seats.

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 01:40 PM
My bolding

It was reported that she was on her way back to the car to call supervisors when the house exploded. I don't think it was that they boys left her in the dust, they ran ahead. All it would take was for her to be a step or two behind them for JP to pull them in and lock the door on her.

And it could have all happened very quickly, these were two very small boys, it wouldn't have taken much for him to overpower them. Attacking them and lighting a match in a house that had already been doused with all that gasoline didn't have to take very long.

JMHO

So shes planning a supervised visit inside the house of a murder suspect. Not so unusual. She's apparently been to that house before. She would have had to reach the front door, knock on it, then turn around to go BACK to her car when the 'eruption' takes place. Seems to me (from a LOGICAL standpoint,) she would have her phone, purse, file folder with her when she approached the house initially. Why leave your phone in the car?

waltzingmatilda
02-07-2012, 01:40 PM
Thanks! I understand what the case worker is saying, I'm just having a difficult time with her account (never mind the fact it was on a Sunday - Superbowl Sunday) I read the other posts and I see where I'm not alone in my thoughts. If a house explodes or erupts into flames, the cause of death isn't smoke inhalation. The house wasn't rigged with explosives and smoke inhalation takes time. You can't have it both ways. The coroner was obviously able to make a determination regarding the cause of death which means their bodies had to VERY well intact in order to note the external (neck) injuries.. as well as the soft tissue of the lungs. Based on the images and media reports, one could only conclude there would be nothing left except charred remains. I do not believe we have all the details and while I will reserve judgement until we do, my "gut" tells me someone dropped the ball.

Anyone have an overhead view of the house/area? How far away was the case worker when she called for help? Was she on the porch, her car, where exactly, in relation to the house? The kids would have had to BOLT out her car and RUN into the house giving JP the opportunity to lock her out - then attack them - then light a match. While I'm sure the kids may have wanted to see their dad, I don't see them racing each other inside the house leaving the case worker in the dust.

I keep thinking of the tragedy involving Dr. William Petit's wife and children and the window of opportunity that was missed (due to the time it takes for a fire caused by gasoline & a match to gain some momentum). I understand the dwellings are vastly different but the cause of the fire(s) were not.

Many, many questions. Too many. I hope we get a full account that fits the details of what we know happened. It seems as though JP was able to ANTICIPATE the boys would leave the case worker behind. How did he know? What if she had gone in the house before the boys?

respectfully bolded and SBM....

Anyone have an overhead view of the house/area?

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Community-mourns-horrific-death-of-Powell-boys-3058398.php#photo-2278925

jjenny
02-07-2012, 01:40 PM
My bolding

Not necessarily, it takes a minute to send off emails. They could have been written and saved and sent when he saw the car come up, or sent when he knew they were on their way. No one would have been close enough to stop anything, and it's doubtful that everyone was on their computer ready to receive the email at the exact moment he sent them.

JMHO

20 minutes before the fire the voice mail was reportedly left-that seems like quite a bit of time to be even potentially able to stop it or at least try.

MarthaM
02-07-2012, 01:41 PM
Why isn't she sharing it with who, the media? It sounds like she did speak to officials.

We can only imagine how traumatized she must be, can't blame her for not speaking to the media.

JMHO

Agreed. I would not expect her to be talking to the media yet, and I applaud her for that. She has no responsibility for this whatsoever and needs some time to process what happened before even considering the media. Really, I don't think she has any obligation to ever do so, although I suppose they'll hound her until she gives in just to have it over with.

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 01:43 PM
1) This was not a CPS government Social Worker, CPS contracted another agency to do the supervised visits and that person is the one who transported the children. Those visit supervisors must offer flexible visit days and times to work with parents work schedules. It is very common that parents have visits on Sundays (especially if they work fulltime). This contracted visit supervisor did exactly as she was supposed to do. CPS was complying with a court order. . . . they have no authority to override a Judges order for visitation in the home.

2) Judge ordered visits in the home after Josh complained about having visits at the visitation center (contracted agency center) with other families around due to his high notariety in this case. He effectively argued to the court that he deserved more privacy during his visits and was granted that per court order.

3) See other posters comments . . . carbon monoxide/smoke inhallation is what ultimately killed them . . . the hatchet cuts and burns were also noted but not the cause of death.

4) House burned violently . . . windows blew out . . .



Kids had a scheduled time to arrive and visit supervisors are trained to be on time and let the parents know if they are running late. He knew exactly (within a few minutes) of their arrival time. Also it takes a few minutes to get the kids out of seatbelts and take them both up to the door. Josh could have sent them as soon as he saw visit supervisor show up.



Regarding the children going into the house before the case worker . . . that is exactly how they are trained to follow the children into the home (lest you would be leaving children unattended outside of the home where something terrible could possibly happen).

I have included the link to verify this was not a CPS government worker but a contracted visit supervisor who typically works weekends/evenings, etc. around parent work schedules and foster/kin schedules as well as the kids schedules (ie: school/daycare/sports).

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2017435088_dshs06m.htm

The more I hear the more questions I have. Mark my words, we don't have the entire story here.

wenwe4
02-07-2012, 01:44 PM
respectfully bolded and SBM....

Anyone have an overhead view of the house/area?

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Community-mourns-horrific-death-of-Powell-boys-3058398.php#photo-2278925

I saw one on the house explosion #2 thread (post 217) where a graphic from NG show last night of a reported house plan.

IIRC the garage was located just right of the front door/living room and that is where Josh reportedly was found with the bodies of his 2 little boys and the hatchet found nearby.

ETA . . . this visit supervisor has signed confidentiality agreements that are legally binding! She cannot speak to the media as it violates confidentiality, her agency would fire her and she could be sued. She has been cooperating with LE and CPS and I want to reitterate that this visit supervisor is NOT in anyway responsible for these children's deaths!!!!!!! The sole person responsible for this horrific tragedy is JOSH!!!!

annalia
02-07-2012, 01:45 PM
The more I hear the more questions I have. Mark my words, we don't have the entire story here.


I don't understand. What is it that you believe to be missing from the story?

annalia
02-07-2012, 01:49 PM
20 minutes before the fire the voice mail was reportedly left-that seems like quite a bit of time to be even potentially able to stop it or at least try.

That meant that everyone had to be on their computer reading their emails or listening to voicemail at the exact moment he sent them? :waitasec:

I'm confused at the points that are trying to be made but I admit I may have missed something posted earlier. :waitasec:

jjenny
02-07-2012, 01:49 PM
There were many clues this guy was suicidal. If a depressed person suddenly becomes calm and starts giving away possessions-classic clues that the person is suicidal. Apparently no one figured it out. But when his relative got his voicemail I am pretty sure it was obvious. So he was taking a big risk if he actually did leave it that much before the fire and apparently before children showed up. The relatives clearly would have tried to stop it and could have ruined his plans.

RiverRat
02-07-2012, 01:50 PM
I think he inflicted the injuries to punish them for talking.

That's kind of close to the feeling I have that I posted about on the Part 2 thread, I seriously do not believe that is why he killed them but that he definitely told the Boys that is why he was hurting them. Twisted Monster.

He killed them for his own disturbing reasons, IMO.

SurfieTX
02-07-2012, 01:51 PM
The more I hear the more questions I have. Mark my words, we don't have the entire story here.


I agree with you 100%. IMO, the boys were left with Josh unsupervised for longer than a few minutes.

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 01:58 PM
I don't understand. What is it that you believe to be missing from the story?

House fires caused by gasoline & a match do not cause "instantaneous" explosions to windows. They usually take SOME time to spread. They don't 'explode' or erupt in the BLINK of an eye. They just don't. The location of the bodies, the condition of the bodies doesn't seem to be consistent with an immediate ball of fire and flames. I am not holding anyone responsible other than Josh Powell for what happened. It's not a conspiracy. But common sense tells me that either ALL the details of what happened haven't been released, or what's being released isn't the whole truth. Because what's being reported simply doesn't make sense. 2-3 minutes isn't enough time to execute this crime AND start an instant blaze to a home. And then to be able to recover the bodies in such amazingly good shape is even more perplexing. I don't know. It just isn't adding up for me YET. Anything's possible... but for me it needs to be probable.

Emeralgem
02-07-2012, 02:06 PM
This entire thing has me shocked into silence.

Same here.. NO WORDS....

21merc7
02-07-2012, 02:09 PM
I don't think all of the details are known yet. It takes time to figure out.

cinsbythesea
02-07-2012, 02:13 PM
There were many clues this guy was suicidal. If a depressed person suddenly becomes calm and starts giving away possessions-classic clues that the person is suicidal. Apparently no one figured it out. But when his relative got his voicemail I am pretty sure it was obvious. So he was taking a big risk if he actually did leave it that much before the fire and apparently before children showed up. The relatives clearly would have tried to stop it and could have ruined his plans.

It was Super Bowl Sunday - I have to wonder if this was not another part of his "plan" - that people wouldn't be paying as much attention to emails and/or text messages as they were either preparing for the game (shopping, food preparing etc) or watching the pre-game, game etc and so were not as attentive as they might normally have been to messages coming in.

wenwe4
02-07-2012, 02:14 PM
Cause of death of the children seems to be reminiscent of clues left @ the "camp site" where charred logs were found. Just wondering out loud . . . a hatchet would be something people take with them camping . . . . could this be a "pattern of death from a serial killer"?

chasing.halos
02-07-2012, 02:15 PM
I am so sick/angry/sad and I hate even typing this but I believe the use of the hatchet did two things: Incapacitated them so they couldn't run and if someone DID get to them before the fire got to them they would not have much chance of survival (in his mind).

I just can't take this guys. Those beautiful babies.

waltzingmatilda
02-07-2012, 02:15 PM
I saw one on the house explosion #2 thread (post 217) where a graphic from NG show last night of a reported house plan.

IIRC the garage was located just right of the front door/living room and that is where Josh reportedly was found with the bodies of his 2 little boys and the hatchet found nearby.

ETA . . . this visit supervisor has signed confidentiality agreements that are legally binding! She cannot speak to the media as it violates confidentiality, her agency would fire her and she could be sued. She has been cooperating with LE and CPS and I want to reitterate that this visit supervisor is NOT in anyway responsible for these children's deaths!!!!!!! The sole person responsible for this horrific tragedy is JOSH!!!!

Totally agree, wenwe4! Josh is the only one responsible. IMO he is a serial murderer.

There was most likely a clause in this SW's contract preventing carrying mobile phones on the job site for privacy reasons. So she had to run back to her car to retrieve her phone to dial authorities. And thank the good lord she survived! She bears no blame in this sad mess. MOO.

wm



Bless her heart

wenwe4
02-07-2012, 02:16 PM
(((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))) chasing.halos

buffetoflies
02-07-2012, 02:16 PM
Not necessarily. Some people have survived their throat slashed.

Yes, and also theoretically the heat from the fire could have cauterized the throat injury.

SurfieTX
02-07-2012, 02:19 PM
In one of the articles (I believe from ABC), it says that he boxed up the boys' belongings and toys and donated them to a charity.

Who supplied this information to ABC? I mean, hello, red flag?

ETA: Here it is:


Just days before he killed himself and his two boys when they came to his Graham, Wash., home for what was supposed to be a supervised visit, Powell gave away his children's toys, police said today.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/josh-powell-gave-sons-toys-days-fatal-explosion/story?id=15520394

annalia
02-07-2012, 02:20 PM
House fires caused by gasoline & a match do not cause "instantaneous" explosions to windows. They usually take SOME time to spread. They don't 'explode' or erupt in the BLINK of an eye. They just don't. The location of the bodies, the condition of the bodies doesn't seem to be consistent with an immediate ball of fire and flames. I am not holding anyone responsible other than Josh Powell for what happened. It's not a conspiracy. But common sense tells me that either ALL the details of what happened haven't been released, or what's being released isn't the whole truth. Because what's being reported simply doesn't make sense. 2-3 minutes isn't enough time to execute this crime AND start an instant blaze to a home. And then to be able to recover the bodies in such amazingly good shape is even more perplexing. I don't know. It just isn't adding up for me YET. Anything's possible... but for me it needs to be probable.

Ok, I think I need to go back and read, I'm getting confused about the reported facts as they happened.

Was it reported by the social worker that the house immediately exploded while she was at the car? Or was it reported that it it went up in flames while she was at the car but the actual explosion happened soon after? :waitasec:

And someone mentioned upthread about JP giving away his possessions, I thought he gave away the boys toys to Goodwill. Giving away toys wouldn't necessarily send off alarms, many parents clear out their children's toys and give them away when they've outgrown them. He may have told those at Goodwill that's what he was doing. Were there other possession he gave away?

TexasCharm
02-07-2012, 02:20 PM
I'm wondering how he corralled both boys to be able to do what he did. I would think that if the one that was hit second saw his brother being hit, he would run. I just can't wrap my mind around all this.

Neither could those boys ...................... imo

buffetoflies
02-07-2012, 02:23 PM
There were many clues this guy was suicidal. If a depressed person suddenly becomes calm and starts giving away possessions-classic clues that the person is suicidal. Apparently no one figured it out. But when his relative got his voicemail I am pretty sure it was obvious. So he was taking a big risk if he actually did leave it that much before the fire and apparently before children showed up. The relatives clearly would have tried to stop it and could have ruined his plans.

But maybe they didn't get the voicemail earlier enough, or maybe his family is just thick or maybe they thought he would never do something like that so they did nothing. Maybe J sent the message so the boys would be saved, but no one replied so J took that to mean they didn't care about the boys so they died as well.

Hey, all we can do is speculate at this point...

wenwe4
02-07-2012, 02:24 PM
Totally agree, wenwe4! Josh is the only one responsible. IMO he is a serial murderer.

There was most likely a clause in this SW's contract preventing carrying mobile phones on the job site for privacy reasons. So she had to run back to her car to retrieve her phone to dial authorities. And thank the good lord she survived! She bears no blame in this sad mess. MOO.

wm



Bless her heart

She probably had her cellphone on her but I doubt she even got one foot inside that door.

Thank you WM!

Just ask yourselves what would any of us do if the door was just slammed in your face and you just caught a whiff of gasoline and the children are in danger?

Bang on the door . . . . scream . . . . call for help . . . step back to see if you can see in the windows . . . . walk around to see if there is another way in . . . head out in the yard to talk to (supervisor/LE/911) whomever without Josh hearing you through the door . . . ????

We can all Monday Morning quarterback about how these children were failed . . . but we know Josh killed them (and I believe he killed Susan too).

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 02:27 PM
Who knows what the criteria is for being a contracted case worker hired by the state? What training is required and involved? What sort of certification do you have to have? I want to know as an FYI. I'm curious. PS.. it's pretty bad when the government has to hire private agencies to help manage their case loads and accommodate the PARENTS of these kids that are being neglected and/or in danger. What is going on here?? Since when do INEPT parents dictate when and where SUPERVISED visitation takes place? I am simply livid - over it all.

Roselvr
02-07-2012, 02:27 PM
Josh was a sick; sick man that I hope he will rot in eternal hell for that. I'm going to puke.

MayraMM
02-07-2012, 02:28 PM
I, too, wonder about the timeline. If the social worker was at the door immediately, s/he would have heard the kids scream or something. I suspect when the kids jumped out of the car, the social worker sat in the car for a moment maybe jotting down notes or making a phone call, perhaps reporting that they had arrived at the house; something. By the time s/he got to the door, the father would have already had time to kill the boys and light the house on fire; that's why it appeared to suddenly ignite to the social worker.

More concerning is since the father had this all planned out, he must have known the social worker wasn't going to come immediately to the door and would have those few minutes to act. In one report the social worker claims to have been stopped from entering, pushed out and the door slammed in his/her face, but if that were the case, then why wasn't that called in immediately?

I'm not trying to place blame with anyone other than the person responsible; just wondering if maybe things happened a little bit differently than reported.

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 02:32 PM
Totally agree, wenwe4! Josh is the only one responsible. IMO he is a serial murderer.

There was most likely a clause in this SW's contract preventing carrying mobile phones on the job site for privacy reasons. So she had to run back to her car to retrieve her phone to dial authorities. And thank the good lord she survived! She bears no blame in this sad mess. MOO.

wm



Bless her heart

That clause makes zero sense to me based on the risk to the worker (if no one else) entering the home of an unstable parent. If this is a fact or if this is the norm, please supply a link to the the privacy clause/phone restrictions and how it outweighs the safety of the employee. And how it would violate the parents privacy by the worker having one on them to be used 'just in case' or in the event of an emergency. Privacy aside and contracts aside, unless the worker is planning on having their purse or briefcase searched before entering the home I'm quite sure most carry them even if they aren't suppose to.

Cortne
02-07-2012, 02:38 PM
I think he inflicted the injuries to punish them for talking.I totally agree. B*stard.

the seeker
02-07-2012, 02:40 PM
The reason I think you are right (and I'm shaking as I write this) is that the murder was personal. The choice of a hatchet has got to the worst way to try and kill someone and to cause the most fear and suffering. It was to punish. Josh was a sadist. He wanted them to suffer and for that he will pay with his soul. They are not suffering now -- but he IS which is how it should be. Death did not end his suffering because his soul is in horrible torment being locked to the earth plane and having to reside on the lowest realms of hell where the beings torture each other.

HOW COULD THEY NOT PROTECT THESE BOYS?! Just how BIG of a sign did they need that something horrible was going to happen and this man was extremely unstable and a high suspect of his wife's murder?!! Not only that, he apparently drove around with her body in the trunk while he two sons rode along with it. And they said, "if only we knew" . OH PLEASE!

I agree. And what is even worse, since it was punishment, he would want them to know why they were being punished, which means he probably told them what he was going to do because "they told about mommy"....

WHY, as soon as it was revealed that they had told of "mommy" in the trunk, didnt they err on the side of caution and DISCONTINUE VISITATION. They should have been looked at as potential WITNESSES to a crime. Where in the HECK was their protection as witnesses? Arent children entitled to that? You wouldnt force an adult to be in the same room as someone who they may have witnessed committing murder, why force a child. UNEXCUSABLE.

x_files
02-07-2012, 02:42 PM
So shes planning a supervised visit inside the house of a murder suspect. Not so unusual. She's apparently been to that house before. She would have had to reach the front door, knock on it, then turn around to go BACK to her car when the 'eruption' takes place. Seems to me (from a LOGICAL standpoint,) she would have her phone, purse, file folder with her when she approached the house initially. Why leave your phone in the car?

Something is missing in her accts. (not that she caused this). LE should have been used in this case it wasn't a friendly family supervised visitation it was extremely volatile. If i was the worker and asked to take the sons to Josh Powell's house I'd ask for an armed police officer to escort us.
I can't imagine CPS or the courts expecting an unarmed, untrained woman to defend the boys against Josh.
What were they thinking?
Not a fan of WA courts, judges and caseworkers right now. They have zero sensibility or common sense.

mamamia54
02-07-2012, 02:44 PM
My question is, when those children began talking about mommy being in the trunk, and getting lost in the desert, why people surrounding those kids didn't keep that info quiet. Why didn't the lawyer keep that info from getting back to Josh? Or did they?

DevilsPlayThing
02-07-2012, 02:44 PM
I am wondering if the same weapon used in his final living moments is the weapon that was used to give the "mommy ouchee" chest injury that Braden told his Great - Grandparents about in May 2010. Braden points to the chest of a picture of a woman in a magazine - saying "mommy ouchee".

In Chuck's September 23 2011 Declaration - Page 7 It is documented.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ac3x-Y_f8toJ:www.deseretnews.com/media/pdf/603540.pdf+josh+powell+pdf&hl=en&gl=us

MarthaM
02-07-2012, 02:45 PM
I, too, wonder about the timeline. If the social worker was at the door immediately, s/he would have heard the kids scream or something. I suspect when the kids jumped out of the car, the social worker sat in the car for a moment maybe jotting down notes or making a phone call, perhaps reporting that they had arrived at the house; something. By the time s/he got to the door, the father would have already had time to kill the boys and light the house on fire; that's why it appeared to suddenly ignite to the social worker.

More concerning is since the father had this all planned out, he must have known the social worker wasn't going to come immediately to the door and would have those few minutes to act. In one report the social worker claims to have been stopped from entering, pushed out and the door slammed in his/her face, but if that were the case, then why wasn't that called in immediately?

I'm not trying to place blame with anyone other than the person responsible; just wondering if maybe things happened a little bit differently than reported.

I'm sure a more specific timeline will gradually come out; right now we don't know many details of that.

But I wouldn't be so sure that the social worker (not sure if that's the right term, but the one accompanying the kids) would have heard screaming. JP may very well have told the kids to keep their mouths shut, or he may have moved so fast that they didn't even have time to make any sounds--especially something loud enough to be heard outside through closed doors and windows.

I doubt the SW was sitting in her car. My guess would be that she unbuckled the kids (or they did it themselves) and they bolted for their father. She was probably not far behind them, but far enough so that he could get them inside and slam/lock the door. It would have only taken seconds.

Had the SW been just a few steps closer, she would be dead, too.

sherryk
02-07-2012, 02:46 PM
I has to take a nap due to being just so upset on this one.

As I went to sleep I was thinking what many of you posted.. the fire alone would of been enough. The hatchet.. he was angry at the boys for speaking up or in someway not being LOYAL to HIM..it is all a control issue..

So those little boys.. if it took two minutes for the house to catch a fire.. those apx 2 minutes were pure hell for them. I imagine he had to hold them down and probally had some strong words for them.

I bet being such a coward that JP is I am thinking he probally took some xanax or anti-aniexty drugs to perhaps keep himself from the jitters or so he woudlnt have to suffer so much.

I am so sick over this.. why why why his little boys.. a hatchet.. why would a man hurt his flesh and blood.

DairyGirl
02-07-2012, 02:46 PM
Yes, clearly very calculated to the last little detail, such as telling people to turn utilities off. Although why in the world he was worried about utilities is beyond my understanding, but maybe he was obsessed with utility bills while alive and couldn't let go?

What I don't understand about turning the utilities off, didn't he realize that the house would be demolished? There would be no utilities after it was gone. That just didn't make sense.

TexasCharm
02-07-2012, 02:47 PM
There were many clues this guy was suicidal. If a depressed person suddenly becomes calm and starts giving away possessions-classic clues that the person is suicidal. Apparently no one figured it out. But when his relative got his voicemail I am pretty sure it was obvious. So he was taking a big risk if he actually did leave it that much before the fire and apparently before children showed up. The relatives clearly would have tried to stop it and could have ruined his plans.

And ......... ?

I think the problem is that we are trying to inject logic into a warped depraved unlogical mind.

Who thinks it's ok to kill their wife and explains it away by saying they took their 2 and 4 year old boys camping in sub-zero weather on a Sunday night at midnight?

Who thinks it's ok to sell a house and move away while their wife is 'missing?'

Who doesn't put the needs of his children first and moves into his pedophile father's house?

Who keeps their children away from loving grandparents?

Who writes a huge declaration about what a wonderful parent they are and then lures his children in the house to slaughter them?

Who cares about whether the utilities are on or off after you have slaughtered your children and blown up yourself?

Who cares what happens to your money after your burning in hell?

Seriously, some of those things are part of the "plan" .. but this man was past thinking logically. There is NO WAY that he LOGICALLY believed that his children were better off dead than with the Coxes.

This is the thinking of a cornered, illogical, crazy man who was hanging onto a mere THREAD of his life.

Logic and worrying about the risks are out the window.... imo.

Dr.Fessel
02-07-2012, 02:48 PM
Thanks! I understand what the case worker is saying, I'm just having a difficult time with her account (never mind the fact it was on a Sunday - Superbowl Sunday) I read the other posts and I see where I'm not alone in my thoughts. If a house explodes or erupts into flames, the cause of death isn't smoke inhalation. The house wasn't rigged with explosives and smoke inhalation takes time. You can't have it both ways. The coroner was obviously able to make a determination regarding the cause of death which means their bodies had to VERY well intact in order to note the external (neck) injuries.. as well as the soft tissue of the lungs. Based on the images and media reports, one could only conclude there would be nothing left except charred remains. I do not believe we have all the details and while I will reserve judgement until we do, my "gut" tells me someone dropped the ball.

Anyone have an overhead view of the house/area? How far away was the case worker when she called for help? Was she on the porch, her car, where exactly, in relation to the house? The kids would have had to BOLT out her car and RUN into the house giving JP the opportunity to lock her out - then attack them - then light a match. While I'm sure the kids may have wanted to see their dad, I don't see them racing each other inside the house leaving the case worker in the dust.

I keep thinking of the tragedy involving Dr. William Petit's wife and children and the window of opportunity that was missed (due to the time it takes for a fire caused by gasoline & a match to gain some momentum). I understand the dwellings are vastly different but the cause of the fire(s) were not.

Many, many questions. Too many. I hope we get a full account that fits the details of what we know happened. It seems as though JP was able to ANTICIPATE the boys would leave the case worker behind. How did he know? What if she had gone in the house before the boys?

BBM

The house was rigged with explosives, it was filled with gasoline fumes. When Josh ignited it the house blew up. That is just plain fact and based on the laws of chemistry and physics. You fill a container with anything that is flammable and there is enough O2 with it you will get an explosion when you ignite it.

Now if Josh had filled the house with natural gas and lit it you would get an explosion and small fires and sometimes people in those homes walk out scorched and injured but usually the explosion just causes small spot fires.

Because Josh soaked the house with gasoline the fire kept burning after the explosion and since the boys were not killed in the initial explosion and they had been struck with an axe they laid there and breathed in their last breathes of monoxide and their hearts stopped.

Concerned Papa
02-07-2012, 02:50 PM
House fires caused by gasoline & a match do not cause "instantaneous" explosions to windows. They usually take SOME time to spread. They don't 'explode' or erupt in the BLINK of an eye. They just don't. The location of the bodies, the condition of the bodies doesn't seem to be consistent with an immediate ball of fire and flames. I am not holding anyone responsible other than Josh Powell for what happened. It's not a conspiracy. But common sense tells me that either ALL the details of what happened haven't been released, or what's being released isn't the whole truth. Because what's being reported simply doesn't make sense. 2-3 minutes isn't enough time to execute this crime AND start an instant blaze to a home. And then to be able to recover the bodies in such amazingly good shape is even more perplexing. I don't know. It just isn't adding up for me YET. Anything's possible... but for me it needs to be probable.

Really?

Watch how long it takes a gasoline fire to "erupt" when this rocket scientist poured 5 gallons of gas on a brush pile and lights it with a match:

FAIL: Idiot Uses Gasoline To Burn Some Branches In His Backyard! - YouTube

Now, imagine the added intensity to this fire if the brush pile had been in a confined space, like a living room, on top of carpeting that had been previously soaked with 5 ADDITIONAL gallons of gas.


Detectives called the explosion a "deliberate, planned event" in which two five-gallon cans of gasoline were used as an accelerant to blast the home apart; gas from one can was spread around the house, and the other can was apparently ignited in the center of the house, where the bodies of Josh, Charlie and Braden were found.

http://www.king5.com/news/local/Gasoline-found-all-over-the-house-of-Josh-Powell-138812474.html

Lighting a match or lighter to a gas soaked rag in the throat of the full gas can would have produced results that were both catostrophic and instantaneous resulting in an explosion "in the blink of an eye".

Pensfan
02-07-2012, 02:50 PM
I still say you've GOT to be insane to do something like this to your children.

The neck consists of soft tissues, a soft esophagus, a soft trachea, and very small cervical vertebrae. I can’t see how the boys weren’t decapitated with a blow from a man swinging an ax. :(

carole
02-07-2012, 02:50 PM
What I don't understand about turning the utilities off, didn't he realize that the house would be demolished? There would be no utilities after it was gone. That just didn't make sense.

BBM

The police/fire would have contacted the utilities and they would have been turned off Sunday.

Of course, it doesn't make sense. Evil/Crazy/ Demented/ never makes sense. Nothing about this makes any sense.

DLT88
02-07-2012, 02:52 PM
Cause of death of the children seems to be reminiscent of clues left @ the "camp site" where charred logs were found. Just wondering out loud . . . a hatchet would be something people take with them camping . . . . could this be a "pattern of death from a serial killer"?

Yup! That's what I was thinking, too! There's a relation between what the did to Susan and what he did to the boys. I think this also make him a serial killer.

MarthaM
02-07-2012, 02:52 PM
What I don't understand about turning the utilities off, didn't he realize that the house would be demolished? There would be no utilities after it was gone. That just didn't make sense.

Maybe he was referring to utilities in his name elsewhere?

Pensfan
02-07-2012, 02:53 PM
Really?

Watch how long it takes a gasoline fire to "erupt" when this rocket scientist poured 5 gallons of gas on a brush pile and lights it with a match:

FAIL: Idiot Uses Gasoline To Burn Some Branches In His Backyard! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f4lPzxSm5A)

Now, imagine the added intensity to this fire if the brush pile had been in a confined space, like a living room, on top of carpeting that had been previously soaked with 5 ADDITIONAL gallons of gas.



Lighting a match or lighter to a gas soaked rag in the throat of the full gas can would have produced results that were both catostrophic and instantaneous resulting in an explosion "in the blink of an eye".
Ugh....and that house was older and clapboard.

wenwe4
02-07-2012, 02:54 PM
Who knows what the criteria is for being a contracted case worker hired by the state? What training is required and involved? What sort of certification do you have to have? I want to know as an FYI. I'm curious. PS.. it's pretty bad when the government has to hire private agencies to help manage their case loads and accommodate the PARENTS of these kids that are being neglected and/or in danger. What is going on here?? Since when do INEPT parents dictate when and where SUPERVISED visitation takes place? I am simply livid - over it all.

What I am about to tell you is not going to ease your "lividity" Paige. Please don't shoot the messenger.

First . . . it is cheaper for the State to hire out contracted visit supervisors who's only job is to
* safely transport the children to and from the visits (if they are also contracted for transportation services)
* document the interaction between the parents and children and is now down to a check off sheet (ie: greet the child/parent with hugs and kisses, parent organized play, parent gave instructions, child followed instructions, etc).
* intervene in the visit only when a Health or Safety risk presents itself during the visit (ie: if she saw Josh with the hatchet, if she entered and smelled the gas and realized thie children were in danger, a parent hits the child, etc) - - - - (IMO she did not have time to respond to the risks of harm to the children due to Josh's directly impeding her)

The requirements for visitation supervisors are:
1) high school diploma
2) pass a background check with CPS and LE
3) training on how to intervene when a crisis happens but not to be intrusive into the parent/child relationship.
4) they are not allowed to offer parenting instruction as this is visit supervision only NOT parent education nor mental health counseling.
5) watch a video about reporting child abuse/neglect and mandating reporting
6) CPR for infants & children
7) HIV/Aids training
8) clean driving record and personal insurance (if they transport children) along with access to appropriate car seats for each age/weight of children.

I am very hesitant to give a link to a recent job posting for this very type of position on the opposite side of Washington State on the board but I will pm you with the link if you want.

MarthaM
02-07-2012, 02:55 PM
Yup! That's what I was thinking, too! There's a relation between what the did to Susan and what he did to the boys. I think this also make him a serial killer.

I'm not sure the label 'serial killer' applies when you just happen to use the same method to kill more than one member of your family.

My own feeling has been that he killed Susan in a less 'messy' way than with an ax, but I could be completely wrong about that.

DevilsPlayThing
02-07-2012, 02:58 PM
Anyone have an overhead view of the house/area?http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=20792&stc=1&d=1328640938
Overhead View.

Mgorules
02-07-2012, 02:59 PM
He broke their necks, imo, so they couldn't escape. If they died of carbon monoxide poisoning, that means they were alive in the fire. :mad:

At first I thought the "gas" smell was natural gas, but are we talking gasoline? Or maybe it was both? That would explain the rapid combustion and multiple explosions.

The hatchet (rather than axe) makes me wonder if that was Susan's murder weapon as well. With the hatchet, much more physical force would be needed to kill with, but not if your aim was to incapacitate and leave to suffer and wonder (as in: Mommy in the trunk). I wonder how sharp it had been honed to be? I bet there is a file found amongst the ruins.

Josh lived a coward and died a coward. :dervish: The demons below have a new plaything, I'm sure they'll have a field day with this punk.
:devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:

MOO

BBM

That was my first thought as well :(

Indy Anna
02-07-2012, 03:00 PM
There were many clues this guy was suicidal. If a depressed person suddenly becomes calm and starts giving away possessions-classic clues that the person is suicidal. Apparently no one figured it out. But when his relative got his voicemail I am pretty sure it was obvious. So he was taking a big risk if he actually did leave it that much before the fire and apparently before children showed up. The relatives clearly would have tried to stop it and could have ruined his plans.

It was Super Bowl Sunday. Maybe he knew that the relative whom he left an voicemail was at a Super Bowl party. Even if he sent an email to someone hosting a Super Bowl party, he'd be pretty confident they would not be on the computer watching their email that afternoon. Could be why he chose that particular day???

Just a thought. :idea:

sherryk
02-07-2012, 03:01 PM
How do you hatchet a child in the throat? I assume you hold them down. I assume the other ran or reacted, hence the two blows.

I keep thinking of the worst case senario of how he did this.. or the best case if there is one... I hope at least he was kind and said somthing to the ok close your eyes lay down mommy came home... please God let it of been somthing that the boys did not have to see a hatchet coming down on him..
that is my best case senario.. again there really is no best case senario.

My worst case is that he was angry, violent, harsh words due to their words of what they may have seen that night... basically JP felt BETRAYED by his sons.. that equals REVENGE.. and revenge equals anger and a horrific crime and the boys probally did see and know why he was doing what he did to them.

I have a feeling that the hatchet was used on Susan also.. just JP sick mind as to say hey.. you wanna know where your mommy and what happened.. here ya go..

i am so so sad

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 03:05 PM
Really?

Watch how long it takes a gasoline fire to "erupt" when this rocket scientist poured 5 gallons of gas on a brush pile and lights it with a match:

FAIL: Idiot Uses Gasoline To Burn Some Branches In His Backyard! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f4lPzxSm5A)

Now, imagine the added intensity to this fire if the brush pile had been in a confined space, like a living room, on top of carpeting that had been previously soaked with 5 ADDITIONAL gallons of gas.



Lighting a match or lighter to a gas soaked rag in the throat of the full gas can would have produced results that were both catostrophic and instantaneous resulting in an explosion "in the blink of an eye".

If the house had been soaked with gasoline, fumes would have been detected long before the social worker got to the front door and no doubt the kids wouldn't have continued to run inside at lightening speed (especially when they didn't want to go see their dad to begin with!). I know this sort of thing DOES happen and it CAN happen but I don't understand how it happened IN THIS CASE according to the details provided by the only eye witness. And from what I observed and from what's been reported (inferno, explosion, ect) it only makes sense the kids would have been burned BEYOND ALL recognition. Their bodies were in tact, soft tissue and all. The house had explosive liquid in the form of gasoline, it wasn't rigged with dynamite. Josh Powell murdered those children but state allowed him to.

Thinker Belle
02-07-2012, 03:06 PM
"He also sent e-mails to his pastor and others just minutes before the fire, giving instructions on how to handle his end-of-life business, according to Troyer. The sheriff's department has copies of some of the e-mails sent to the attorney, family and friends, saying "he couldn't live with what was going on," Troyer said."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/07/justice/washington-powell-case/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

Well, that's fine if he couldn't live with what was going on, my guess is out of guilt of having to lay his head on his pillow every night knowing what he did to his wife, knowing that he robbed his children of their mother. But his children could have lived with it, resilient as they often are, they could have went on with their lives living with their beloved grandparents, went on to blossom into adults and have a bright future. They should have been allowed to. WHY DID HE HAVE TO TAKE THEM WITH HIM? How completely selfish and evil even in death.

I am so incredibly angered by this. And then to learn he chopped at them with an axe? They suffered before they died. They were in pain and felt terror and agony. I was praying that they did not and now I know that the last images they witnessed before they departed this earth was their own father chopping at them with an axe? I really wished I would not have clicked on this story right now. I have one more hour of class today and I cannot get that horrific image out of my head. May justice be swift in the court of a higher power.
MOO

mamamia54
02-07-2012, 03:07 PM
I keep thinking of the worst case senario of how he did this.. or the best case if there is one... I hope at least he was kind and said somthing to the ok close your eyes lay down mommy came home... please God let it of been somthing that the boys did not have to see a hatchet coming down on him..
that is my best case senario.. again there really is no best case senario.

My worst case is that he was angry, violent, harsh words due to their words of what they may have seen that night... basically JP felt BETRAYED by his sons.. that equals REVENGE.. and revenge equals anger and a horrific crime and the boys probally did see and know why he was doing what he did to them.

I have a feeling that the hatchet was used on Susan also.. just JP sick mind as to say hey.. you wanna know where your mommy and what happened.. here ya go..

i am so so sad

Either that or he said, we are going to go see mommy now.

Indy Anna
02-07-2012, 03:07 PM
It was Super Bowl Sunday - I have to wonder if this was not another part of his "plan" - that people wouldn't be paying as much attention to emails and/or text messages as they were either preparing for the game (shopping, food preparing etc) or watching the pre-game, game etc and so were not as attentive as they might normally have been to messages coming in.

cinsbythesea, I should have read all of the posts first. That's exactly what I was thinking. Many people have parties the whole afternoon on Super Bowl Sunday.

Dr.Fessel
02-07-2012, 03:07 PM
I don't know where the story is coming from that says the kids ran ahead of the CPS lady.

The head detective in the case says they did not run ahead of her. They were all on the porch and Josh let the boys in and shut the door on her. There was no running ahead.

You can hear him say it here.

http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=577&a=38755&p=&n=AudioClip

jjenny
02-07-2012, 03:09 PM
It was Super Bowl Sunday. Maybe he knew that the relative whom he left an voicemail was at a Super Bowl party. Even if he sent an email to someone hosting a Super Bowl party, he'd be pretty confident they would not be on the computer watching their email that afternoon. Could be why he chose that particular day???

Just a thought. :idea:

But the people who he send the e-mails to did call police. It wasn't in time to save the children, but clearly they got the e-mails quickly. The emergency services arrived after the fire already started, but clearly these people were not all out not checking their e-mails/voice mails.

"Leach said he frantically called his sister along with Josh's sister and brother, Alina and Michael Powell. He said he even called 911 from his home in Texas to get emergency services over to Powell's house in Puyallup, Wash., The Salt Lake Tribune reported Monday."

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/02/06/Powell-family-reacts-to-e-mails/UPI-41801328577662/#ixzz1likS1BAt

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/02/06/Powell-family-reacts-to-e-mails/UPI-41801328577662/

jjenny
02-07-2012, 03:10 PM
I don't know where the story is coming from that says the kids ran ahead of the CPS lady.

The head detective in the case says they did not run ahead of her. They were all on the porch and Josh let the boys in and shut the door on her. There was no running ahead.

You can hear him say it here.

http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=577&a=38755&p=&n=AudioClip

Yep, there are quite a few variations in the story as reported by the media.

jjenny
02-07-2012, 03:11 PM
cinsbythesea, I should have read all of the posts first. That's exactly what I was thinking. Many people have parties the whole afternoon on Super Bowl Sunday.

The people who got his e-mails called 911 so they weren't all out partying.
It was too late to save anyone but they weren't all out partying and not checking their e-mails and voice mails. And JP would presumably know that they could call 911 after getting his messages.

MaryAnn
02-07-2012, 03:12 PM
No, I think the smell of gas was gasoline, not natural gas.

The Social Worker said she could smell the gas outside of the house. I'm sure the boys knew something was wrong as soon as they entered the house. They were old enough to realize that is not normal, they must have been terrified

Dr.Fessel
02-07-2012, 03:14 PM
If the house had been soaked with gasoline, fumes would have been detected long before the social worker got to the front door and no doubt the kids wouldn't have continued to run inside at lightening speed (especially when they didn't want to go see their dad to begin with!). I know this sort of thing DOES happen and it CAN happen but I don't understand how it happened IN THIS CASE according to the details provided by the only eye witness. And from what I observed and from what's been reported (inferno, explosion, ect) it only makes sense the kids would have been burned BEYOND ALL recognition. Their bodies were in tact, soft tissue and all. The house had explosive liquid in the form of gasoline, it wasn't rigged with dynamite. Josh Powell murdered those children but state allowed him to.

The inside of the house could have been soaked in gas, they are not talking about the outside. Since the CPS lady said she smelled gas then it was probably while she was standing at the front door when Josh shut it on her.

There is no evidence they ran in the house at lightning speed. And kids are notorious for saying "no, I don't want to do that I am having fun" then when they have to do it they have fun. They very well could have looked forward to seeing there dad even though just a few minutes before they said they would not.

PattyCake
02-07-2012, 03:16 PM
Hi all. Its been forever since I've been at WS. This horrific story dug me out of the abyss.

I have a thought on how Josh controlled those kids once in the house. I believe he may have used those plastic zip ties you can buy at any hardware store. I think he could have had them ready to go once he dragged the kids in the house, it would have taken all of 5 seconds to connect them together and contain them. He could have also nailed all the other doors shut from the inside, limiting the kids to 1 room. I guess there's nothing out of the realm of possibilities considering this has to be the most evil thing I've ever heard of.

Its very unfortunate to hear some of his family all but defend him and laying blame on society. If a monster is able to brutality kill his babies so violently, he was clearly able to kill his wife without question. Their anger is very misplaced. Blame is on the monster. Josh's level of rage by using a hatchet on those babies was for revenge and because he hated those boys for 'betraying' him. He may have got wind through lawyers that the boys were starting to talk or maybe the drawing by one of his sons' (of mommy in the trunk) was addressed at the last court date. There was also a letter by law enforcement addressed in family court last week. This was a very violent crime and he wanted his kids to "pay".

I am only glad my faith believes in a literal h*ll and Josh is currently experiencing a level of evil even he was incapable of dreaming up. Even that thought of Josh in h*ll is no comfort to something so completely senseless.

My heart is in a million pieces so I cannot even begin to imagine how the Cox family is feeling or how they'll be able to overcome this and carry on. I hope they're surrounded by endless love and comfort.

trillian
02-07-2012, 03:16 PM
It's so horrible I cannot even grasp the reality of it.

I hope when they get gravestones that the Powell name isn't anywhere on it. And I hope that there is a space next to them for when Susan is found.

Josh can rot in a landfill.

annalia
02-07-2012, 03:16 PM
If the house had been soaked with gasoline, fumes would have been detected long before the social worker got to the front door and no doubt the kids wouldn't have continued to run inside at lightening speed (especially when they didn't want to go see their dad to begin with!). I know this sort of thing DOES happen and it CAN happen but I don't understand how it happened IN THIS CASE according to the details provided by the only eye witness. And from what I observed and from what's been reported (inferno, explosion, ect) it only makes sense the kids would have been burned BEYOND ALL recognition. Their bodies were in tact, soft tissue and all. The house had explosive liquid in the form of gasoline, it wasn't rigged with dynamite. Josh Powell murdered those children but state allowed him to.

But detected long before by who? He would have most likely doused the house a few minutes before they arrived, with all the windows closed who would have detected it? It's doubtful he would have done it hours or days days before.

The boys were babies, they wouldn't have known that they smelled gas so they shouldn't go in the house. They may have smelled something bad but if he pulled them in and locked the door, what were they going to do?
Or they may have said as they were going in what's that smell but again what were they going to do after he gets them in and locks the door.

These were two small children, no match for JP. The caseworker did smell the gas, but what was she going to do at that point after he locked her out? What exactly could she have done differently after he locked her out?

jjenny
02-07-2012, 03:16 PM
It was Super Bowl Sunday - I have to wonder if this was not another part of his "plan" - that people wouldn't be paying as much attention to emails and/or text messages as they were either preparing for the game (shopping, food preparing etc) or watching the pre-game, game etc and so were not as attentive as they might normally have been to messages coming in.

Again, the people who got his email called 911. I posted a link. I just don't think it makes much sense for him to send emails and voicemails before children showed up because his plans could have been ruined if the people who got his e-mails called 911 before the children were delivered to his house. But maybe that's what he did, I don't know. But since he made such detailed plans it makes no sense to me that he would.

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 03:17 PM
The Social Worker said she could smell the gas outside of the house. I'm sure the boys knew something was wrong as soon as they entered the house. They were old enough to realize that is not normal, they must have been terrified

If the kids didn't run ahead of her and if she could smell gasoline on the outside of the house, then why allow them to go in the house at all? Dude.. I understand it all happened quickly BUT DOT DOT DOT, it's just so unbelievable. LITERALLY.

Cherry Baby
02-07-2012, 03:18 PM
It was Super Bowl Sunday - I have to wonder if this was not another part of his "plan" - that people wouldn't be paying as much attention to emails and/or text messages as they were either preparing for the game (shopping, food preparing etc) or watching the pre-game, game etc and so were not as attentive as they might normally have been to messages coming in.

You are so right! This and the giving away of the toys. This wasn't about how much he loved his sons but hated that any further psych testing would totally erode any custody or visitation claim he'd have with the boys. For Josh and his father it's all control, control, control - and no love.

21merc7
02-07-2012, 03:19 PM
I think they are still investigating the fire and explosion. I can guess that he lined the house with gasoline, and kept containers with rags to light it. Did he use gun powder or any other accelerant? We will not know until the investigation is complete.

As far as people getting voicemails and emails, that does not mean they were home to receive them immediately. It has been reported that some did call for help when they did receive them. When was that? I don't know if that has been released yet. Have you ever called 911 for any kind of domestic issue, much less one based on a crazy call or email? Or one for the town pariah? Just saying, it usually takes time to get someone on the scene, it's not as if police were just stationed outside his rented home, nor could they be.

Let's hope more details will be released, and as accurately as possible, as they are figured out. I doubt every second will be covered, as some of it will be left to speculation on even the investigators parts as all that were in the home are not here to fill in the gaps.

my_tee_mouse
02-07-2012, 03:20 PM
Why isn't she sharing it with who, the media? It sounds like she did speak to officials.

We can only imagine how traumatized she must be, can't blame her for not speaking to the media.

JMHO

Case workers are not free to discuss cases with the media...privacy violations.

jjenny
02-07-2012, 03:21 PM
I think they are still investigating the fire and explosion. I can guess that he lined the house with gasoline, and kept containers with rags to light it. Did he use gun powder or any other accelerant? We will not know until the investigation is complete.

As far as people getting voicemails and emails, that does not mean they were home to receive them immediately. It has been reported that some did call for help when they did receive them. When was that? I don't know if that has been released yet. Have you ever called 911 for any kind of domestic issue, much less one based on a crazy call or email? Or one for the town pariah? Just saying, it usually takes time to get someone on the scene, it's not as if police were just stationed outside his rented home, nor could they be.

Let's hope more details will be released, and as accurately as possible, as they are figured out. I doubt every second will be covered, as some of it will be left to speculation on even the investigators parts as all that were in the home are not here to fill in the gaps.

At least some were home and called emergency according to the article that I posted. Why is that so hard to believe when it happened? They did call emergency. But emergency showed up after the fire has already started. And JP would have known they could call 911-I think that's pretty easy to figure out.

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 03:21 PM
But detected long before by who? He would have most likely doused the house a few minutes before they arrived, with all the windows closed who would have detected it? It's doubtful he would have done it hours or days days before.

The boys were babies, they wouldn't have known that they smelled gas so they shouldn't go in the house. They may have smelled something bad but if he pulled them in and locked the door, what were they going to do?
Or they may have said as they were going in what's that smell but again what were they going to do after he gets them in and locks the door.

These were two small children, no match for JP. The caseworker did smell the gas, but what was she going to do at that point after he locked her out? What exactly could she have done differently after he locked her out?

The case worker said she smelled the gasoline from outside the house. The kids didn't run ahead of her. They had to reach the front door at the same time.

21merc7
02-07-2012, 03:22 PM
At least some were home and called emergency according to the article that I posted. Why is that so hard to believe when it happened? They did call emergency. But emergency showed up after the fire has already started. And JP would have known they could call 911-I think that's pretty easy to figure out.

I know, it was in the articles from yesterday.

Concerned Papa
02-07-2012, 03:23 PM
I don't know where the story is coming from that says the kids ran ahead of the CPS lady.

The head detective in the case says they did not run ahead of her. They were all on the porch and Josh let the boys in and shut the door on her. There was no running ahead.

You can hear him say it here.

http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=577&a=38755&p=&n=AudioClip

IDK Doc, but according to this, that's what the Fire Chief said:


A social worker brought the two boys to Josh Powell's home Sunday for what was to be a supervised visit. They rushed toward the home, leaving the social worker behind. By the time she got to the door, Powell had let his sons in but locked her out, Graham Fire and Rescue Chief Gary Franz told The Associated Press.

http://www.king5.com/news/Josh-Powells-home-explodes-two-bodies-found-inside-138747519.html

jjenny
02-07-2012, 03:24 PM
I know, it was in the articles from yesterday.

So I am trying to figure out the timeline. When did he make phone calls and send all e-mails in relation to children arriving at his house? He had to realize that if sends e-mails to so many people at least some could call 911.
His plan would could have been ruined.

jjenny
02-07-2012, 03:25 PM
IDK Doc, but according to this, that's what the Fire Chief said:

They appear be saying things that contradict each other so we clearly don't know what this whole scenario was (and neither apparently do they).

annalia
02-07-2012, 03:26 PM
The case worker said she smelled the gasoline from outside the house. The kids didn't run ahead of her. They had to reach the front door at the same time.

Was it reported that she smelled it all the way from the car? The boys were ahead of her when they reached the door, they weren't arm in arm.
Once they reached the door, the boys were taken in and the door locked on her.

IIRC it was reported that's when she smelled the gas, as she went to the door. Too late as the boys were already taken inside.

JMHO

Emma Peel
02-07-2012, 03:26 PM
He axes his babies?

The story gets even worse?

I was hoping we'd learn he'd done something to assure no suffering for the boys - something I couldn't mention on the thread "out loud". I thought perhaps bullets, and even one for himself...

But he axes his babies?

They're playing his voicemail over and over. His anxiety is palpable. Do we know who it was he called, that didn't get the call, such that it went to voicemail?

annalia
02-07-2012, 03:28 PM
So I am trying to figure out the timeline. When did he make phone calls and send all e-mails in relation to children arriving at his house? He had to realize that if sends e-mails to so many people at least some could call 911.
His plan would could have been ruined.

It could have but obviously his plan wasn't ruined. Only he can answer why he took the chance, but what difference does it really make now?

essies
02-07-2012, 03:29 PM
"He also sent e-mails to his pastor and others just minutes before the fire, giving instructions on how to handle his end-of-life business, according to Troyer. The sheriff's department has copies of some of the e-mails sent to the attorney, family and friends, saying "he couldn't live with what was going on," Troyer said."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/07/justice/washington-powell-case/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

Well, that's fine if he couldn't live with what was going on, my guess is out of guilt of having to lay his head on his pillow every night knowing what he did to his wife, knowing that he robbed his children of their mother. But his children could have lived with it, resilient as they often are, they could have went on with their lives living with their beloved grandparents, went on to blossom into adults and have a bright future. They should have been allowed to. WHY DID HE HAVE TO TAKE THEM WITH HIM? How completely selfish and evil even in death.

I am so incredibly angered by this. And then to learn he chopped at them with an axe? They suffered before they died. They were in pain and felt terror and agony. I was praying that they did not and now I know that the last images they witnessed before they departed this earth was their own father chopping at them with an axe? I really wished I would not have clicked on this story right now. I have one more hour of class today and I cannot get that horrific image out of my head. May justice be swift in the court of a higher power.
MOO
BBM
IMO He took the boys and killed them because of his hatred of the Cox's. He felt they were winning and would get the boys permanently. I think just as he wouldn't let Susan go-which would have meant losing the boys then, he wasn't about to lose custody and let the boys go with susan's parents now!! In his mind, I think, it was all about control and winning-even if it meant murder/suicide- he felt (in his evil, twisted logic) he won and the Cox's lost with his final act of revenge!:banghead:

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 03:30 PM
Well as we can see from the conflicting media reports, this isn't a clear cut case and vital details ARE missing. No doubt sleuthing minds will keep on top of this one until we know all there is to know. I can accept things I don't agree with but I can't accept what I don't logically understand. Why it happened and how to prevent it from happening again will come later but there's still much to learn from this tragedy. We can all agree it should have never happened and it didn't have to.

stilettos
02-07-2012, 03:31 PM
Josh was a sick; sick man that I hope he will rot in eternal hell for that. I'm going to puke.

Me too Roselvr. I could not post at all about this case yesterday. Stunned and without words. I know that the courts do the best they can...but frankly, they failed these children by not having supervised visits in public locations. They really should not have had visitation at all. I am just sick.

stilettos
02-07-2012, 03:33 PM
Jailed father of Josh Powell now a person of interest in Susan Cox Powell’s disappearance; placed on suicide watch
http://www.yakima-herald.com/stories/2012/02/07/jailed-father-of-josh-powell-now-a-person-of-interest-in-susan-cox-powells-disappearance-placed-on-suicide-watch

We should not waste one cent of taxpayer money on that POS.

mamamia54
02-07-2012, 03:33 PM
We discuss things to attempt to make ourselves understand someone would could do something like this, it's like attempting to walk in the shoes of a maniac, that's a difficult thing to do, I know I can't.

Concerned Papa
02-07-2012, 03:41 PM
Was it reported that she smelled it all the way from the car? The boys were ahead of her when they reached the door, they weren't arm in arm.
Once they reached the door, the boys were taken in and the door locked on her.

IIRC it was reported that's when she smelled the gas, as she went to the door. Too late as the boys were already taken inside.

JMHO

I'm not sure if he can outrun a 7 year old, but we could let this guy handle doors at supervised visitations.

Obama Kicks Door Open - YouTube

I'm just not sure what this social worker is supposed to have done to prevent this act of evil.

mamamia54
02-07-2012, 03:43 PM
I'm not sure if he can outrun a 7 year old, but we could let this guy handle doors at supervised visitations.

Obama Kicks Door Open - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3SFXQfE4kk)

I'm just not sure what this social worker is supposed to have done to prevent this act of evil.

NOTHING!! There isn't anything more that she could have done, if he would have pulled her in the door too, she would have been another statistic.

Dr.Fessel
02-07-2012, 03:44 PM
IDK Doc, but according to this, that's what the Fire Chief said:

That one had me scratching my head.........for a minute or two then I looked at the article.

The article is written by an unnamed author, then an unnamed AP reporter states the fire chief says that without any quotes.

At this point and time I go with the lead detective and hearing his own words saying what happened. Since he says they were all 3 on the porch at the same time that fact means it is true or he is not telling the truth. I don't see him lying or having any reason to lie.

Drama Queen
02-07-2012, 03:45 PM
I can and will blame no person but JP for this sick and depraved act on his own little children.
If it had been a visit at the park...or McDonalds...or the church in which he and Susan were married...he would have made the death of his children happen.
This was the worst thing he could do to her parents and other supporters of Susan. Kill them...if I can't have them...no one will!
He has also broken the hearts of people who cared...the social worker (who will never be the same) law enforcement and other community residents who cared.
This is the saddest time. My heart breaks. I would like to support the people who tried, the people who care and those precious souls. Things can be better but we have to enact new legistion for that purpose. It is horrible that these injustices toward innocents need to happen before appropriate action is taken.
Josh may be in hell but we are all living it as each day seems to bring new news about evil such as this.
Sad, as a word, does not describe our world right now. Our world is out of its mind!

Anakerie
02-07-2012, 03:50 PM
Again, the people who got his email called 911. I posted a link. I just don't think it makes much sense for him to send emails and voicemails before children showed up because his plans could have been ruined if the people who got his e-mails called 911 before the children were delivered to his house. But maybe that's what he did, I don't know. But since he made such detailed plans it makes no sense to me that he would.

There are several ways to delay the delivery of emails.. One of the ways is included in Outlook.. Simply schedule the sending of it.. Or, if he was using an online mail program, same thing; simply schedule the time you want the mails to be sent. He didn't have to sit and type out any of those emails right before the boys arrived. He could have written them out the day before and simply scheduled the sending of the emails. Gmail even has the ability of delaying the sending of emails. He knew in advance the approximate time the boys and the case worker would arrive. IMO, the mails were sent from an external source such as Gmail or perhaps his ISP has a web based email program with the scheduling ability.. It couldn't have been sent from the "home computer" because the "home computer" would have been destroyed in the explosion and fire and nothing would have been sent.

Concerned Papa
02-07-2012, 03:59 PM
That one had me scratching my head.........for a minute or two then I looked at the article.

The article is written by an unnamed author, then an unnamed AP reporter states the fire chief says that without any quotes.

At this point and time I go with the lead detective and hearing his own words saying what happened. Since he says they were all 3 on the porch at the same time that fact means it is true or he is not telling the truth. I don't see him lying or having any reason to lie.

I'm not sure of your thinking on this point, but if she was on the porch while the door was open, it seems to me that it would make her smelling the gas that much more likely and credible. If you pour 5 gallons of gas on the living room carpet/furniture/walls of that little house, I gotta believe the smell on the porch, through an open door, would be overpowering.

Unless the social worker could whip this POS's azz, there probably wasn't a lot that could have been done to prevent his shutting and locking the door, either.

annalia
02-07-2012, 04:02 PM
I don't know where the story is coming from that says the kids ran ahead of the CPS lady.

The head detective in the case says they did not run ahead of her. They were all on the porch and Josh let the boys in and shut the door on her. There was no running ahead.

You can hear him say it here.

http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=577&a=38755&p=&n=AudioClip

Thanks for the link. I think he explains it well.

Running ahead of her or all of them having gone up at the same time doesn't change that the boys were in front of her as they approached the door and went into the house, JP pushed her back and locks the door. She smells gas at that point but not much she could do being locked out.

The casewoker, first banging to get in, he says that she tried to call 911, trying to alert neighbors, everything transpired very quickly. Whether there was a difference of a minute or two in the early reporting doesn't really change anything.

Also it doesn't sound like the house immediately explodes as soon as he set the fire, but became an instant fireball, the explosion certainly could have happened just moments later. It looked to be a small home, with all that gasoline, the windows closed it wouldn't take very long for it to erupt into an explosion.


JMHO

beach
02-07-2012, 04:05 PM
Thread topic:

Cause of Death-Charles and Braden Powell. **Warning-Graphic Thread**

Please bump the correct topical thread or generate a new one to discuss the emails or timelines. Neither one has any relevance regarding the discussion of the CODs of Charlie and Braden.

:tyou:

Dr.Fessel
02-07-2012, 04:06 PM
I'm not sure of your thinking on this point, but if she was on the porch while the door was open, it seems to me that it would make her smelling the gas that much more likely and credible. If you pour 5 gallons of gas on the living room carpet/furniture/walls of that little house, I gotta believe the smell on the porch, through an open door, would be overpowering.

Unless the social worker could whip this POS's azz, there probably wasn't a lot that could have been done to prevent his shutting and locking the door, either.

I agree. I think it is very possible she smelled the gas then. I can see him standing outside waiting for them if he had already poured the gas then opening the door and keeping one hand high up on the jamb, ushering the kids in but keeping the lady out as he stepped in.

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 04:10 PM
How were the bodies recovered intact? Any thoughts? From the inferno seen on TV, I don't understand how it was possible - especially tiny bodies with not much soft tissue by virtue of their size and weight.

jjenny
02-07-2012, 04:16 PM
How were the bodies recovered intact? Any thoughts? From the inferno seen on TV, I don't understand how it was possible - especially tiny bodies with not much soft tissue by virtue of their size and weight.

The flames shoot up and the bodies are on the ground?

annalia
02-07-2012, 04:21 PM
How were the bodies recovered intact? Any thoughts? From the inferno seen on TV, I don't understand how it was possible - especially tiny bodies with not much soft tissue by virtue of their size and weight.

I couldn't find where it was reported exactly how the bodies were found, is there a link?

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 04:21 PM
The flames shoot up and the bodies are on the ground?

Makes about as much sense as everything else, I 'spose ?

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 04:22 PM
I couldn't find where it was reported exactly how the bodies were found, is there a link?

I don't know, I'm just going by the ME's report of COD.

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 04:31 PM
Link to CPS official regarding details of contracted case worker and the moments leading up to the tragedy. For me, it raises more questions than answers..

http://mynorthwest.com/?nid=577&a=38759&p=&n=AudioClip

21merc7
02-07-2012, 04:32 PM
From the videos, the bodies were brought out on stretchers and still seemed to be "intact". In other words, they were not just bones under the blankets.

That leads me to think that the house was doused around the inside edges, by the time they got to the bodies, the fire had not reached them completely. Just guessing here.

annalia
02-07-2012, 04:45 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6423473

The only think I can think of is that they were able to determine COD by the chemicals in their lungs. I don't know if a body would need to be completely intact to determine that though, or if they could still determine it from what was remained but not intact. If they had died from the blows from the hatchet their bodies wouldn't have taken in the lethal amounts to cause smoke inhalation. Like how they can tell if a person really drowned or had been murdered elsewhere by the water in the lungs.

I don't know if that makes sense.

jjenny
02-07-2012, 04:47 PM
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6423473

The only think I can think of is that they were able to determine COD by the chemicals in their lungs. I don't know if a body would need to be completely intact to determine that though, or if they could still determine it from what was remained but not intact. If they had died from the blows from the hatchet their bodies wouldn't have taken in the lethal amounts to cause smoke inhalation. Like how they can tell if a person really drowned or had been murdered elsewhere by the water in the lungs.

I don't know if that makes sense.

Yes, they do it by analysis of lungs and breathing apparatus. If they are dead prior to the fire they would not inhale carbon monoxide because they are not breathing. But clearly the bodies have to be at least somewhat intact for the coroner to be able to make that analysis.

CHERIE.T
02-07-2012, 04:51 PM
The house didn't "blow up." He burned it down using gasoline. Carbon monoxide poisoning is a standard cause of death for someone who dies in a fire.

"The characteristic biphasic distribution of carboxyhemoglobin in fire victims together with other observations suggest that the principal causes of death are carbon monoxide followed by carbon dioxide poisoning and/or oxygen deficiency, while the influence of heat is considered to be of minor importance."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6423473

The first reports stated much the same.


Fatal EXPLOSION rips through home of Josh Powell.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2012/02/josh-powell-explosion-fire-killed-boys.html

scrabble
02-07-2012, 04:59 PM
He always looked disturbed to me. My heart goes out to Susan Powell's parents and family, and I believe God is now looking after and holding the boys close, along with their Mother, Susan Powell.

Magdalyn
02-07-2012, 05:06 PM
How were the bodies recovered intact? Any thoughts? From the inferno seen on TV, I don't understand how it was possible - especially tiny bodies with not much soft tissue by virtue of their size and weight.

Well, from what I understand about cremation, I think it takes a 100 lb human body an hour of sustained 1600-1800 F temps to disintegrate into ash. If the boys were half that weight, it would take about 30 minutes of sustained 1600-1800 F temps directly on the bodies (and enclosed like a cremation furnace), I'd guess. Though remaining parts of the house burned for a while, I'm thinking with the roof and windows gone quickly, and the gas soaked carpets 'up in smoke' almost instantly, none of the bodies were kept at an enclosed, constant 1600-1800 degrees F for 30 minutes to an hour. (Meaning the walls and wood framing of the house may have continued burning around them, but the bodies may not have continued to burn as they were not actively 'on fire' and they were in the 'center', flames around them but not on them.)

I actually think it's difficult to keep a human body on fire (to the point of nothing being 'intact') considering the water content. So I'm guessing they were likely (sorry sweet babies) charred, externally, but otherwise 'intact'.

All this is laptop researcher opinion and speculation on my part.

Storm
02-07-2012, 05:10 PM
Who knows what the criteria is for being a contracted case worker hired by the state? What training is required and involved? What sort of certification do you have to have? I want to know as an FYI. I'm curious. PS.. it's pretty bad when the government has to hire private agencies to help manage their case loads and accommodate the PARENTS of these kids that are being neglected and/or in danger. What is going on here?? Since when do INEPT parents dictate when and where SUPERVISED visitation takes place? I am simply livid - over it all.

The point is that the court ordered visitation at the home...who supervised the visit is irrelevant...it was court ordered. The social worker was simply paid
to follow the court orders and should in no way be blamed. If we need to blame someone...let's first blame Josh..he chose to kill..if we think the judge made the wrong decision..let's let him know...but I strongly believe the person who took the boys is absolutely innocent in all of this. ^i^

Indy Anna
02-07-2012, 05:50 PM
So I am trying to figure out the timeline. When did he make phone calls and send all e-mails in relation to children arriving at his house? He had to realize that if sends e-mails to so many people at least some could call 911.
His plan would could have been ruined.

I still have to wonder if Josh knew family members would be out when he placed the telephone call because they apparently weren't home then and so he left the voice mail. As you've said, jjenny, 20 minutes gives plenty of time to notify authorities that there would have been sufficient time to thwart Josh's plans before the boys even arrived. I wonder how much time elapsed between the brother LISTENING to the voice mail and the children arriving at Josh's house.

Maybe his brother's family typically dined out on Sunday after church, or had scheduled lunch with some friends. It's more likely that it was an established pattern which Josh was familiar with - either way, I think Josh knew. It's the only explanation I can think of.

The emails would be easy enough to store in the outbox until the last minute. Powell's lawyer didn't see the email sent him until 2 hours after he received it at 12:05 (I think that would actually be the time it was sent, correct?). The first 911 call was received at 12:13. If anyone happened to see the email at 12:05, they would still have 8 minutes to call 911, but sometimes the time stamp on emails is off, so there may have been even less time - and, again, someone would have had to read at the very moment it hit the inbox.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2017434073_powell06m.html
~snipped~

The Associated Press reported that Josh Powell's lawyer received an email from him shortly before Sunday's fire, saying: "I'm sorry, goodbye."

Attorney Jeffrey Bassett said the email arrived at 12:05 p.m. Sunday, but he didn't see it until two hours later, when others informed him of the fire. He says he knew Powell was upset after a judge last week ordered him to undergo a psychosexual evaluation, but he didn't see this coming.

Troyer said email and text messages from Powell's account were sent to a number of people, whom he didn't identify. He said investigators had no reason to doubt that Powell wrote them.

beach
02-07-2012, 06:05 PM
Thread topic:

Cause of Death-Charles and Braden Powell. **Warning-Graphic Thread**

Please bump the correct topical thread or generate a new one to discuss the emails or timelines. Neither one has any relevance regarding the discussion of the CODs of Charlie and Braden.

:tyou:

:bump:

elfie
02-07-2012, 06:56 PM
Yes, clearly very calculated to the last little detail, such as telling people to turn utilities off. Although why in the world he was worried about utilities is beyond my understanding, but maybe he was obsessed with utility bills while alive and couldn't let go?

I'm guessing that he didn't want anyone to interfere with his plan had they received the emails in time, so he wasn't letting on to the full extent, by implying that the utilities would be intact in order to have them turned off.

Pensfan
02-07-2012, 07:14 PM
How were the bodies recovered intact? Any thoughts? From the inferno seen on TV, I don't understand how it was possible - especially tiny bodies with not much soft tissue by virtue of their size and weight.
Add to this the statement that the bodies were not recovered until 5:30 when the huge fire was completely burned out.

wallflower67
02-07-2012, 07:22 PM
I'm having a difficult time with the timeline and details !?

1 - This was a Sunday. Do government case workers usually work on the weekends? They don't in my state.

2 - Is it SOP for 'supervised visitation' to occur at the home of the parent who is being supervised? Is this a discretionary call on behalf of the case worker/judge ? If so, why was this allowed?


I'm just having a hard time with the information that's been reported thus far and would like to know more about the case worker and the EXACT details of his/her story.

Some states contract with private companies to do home evals and visitations. Currently, I have a family members who are getting supervised visits with their kids, and the visit worker comes to their home with the children (brings them from the foster home). They do have visits on weekends. I think it's at the supervisor's convenience and schedule. Our state, Nebraska, has privatized social services/CPS.

jjenny
02-07-2012, 07:24 PM
I'm guessing that he didn't want anyone to interfere with his plan had they received the emails in time, so he wasn't letting on to the full extent, by implying that the utilities would be intact in order to have them turned off.

I really doubt it considering his messages were clear enough for his relatives to call 911 after they got them.

believe09
02-07-2012, 07:25 PM
Let's stick to the COD topic. I am pretty certain we have a timeline thread we can bump...BRB.

believe09
02-07-2012, 07:28 PM
Here is a timeline thread-it contains detailed outlines of the disappearance of Susan, and can now include discussion related to the murder/suicide.

Timeline Thread Here

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 07:31 PM
Well, from what I understand about cremation, I think it takes a 100 lb human body an hour of sustained 1600-1800 F temps to disintegrate into ash. If the boys were half that weight, it would take about 30 minutes of sustained 1600-1800 F temps directly on the bodies (and enclosed like a cremation furnace), I'd guess. Though remaining parts of the house burned for a while, I'm thinking with the roof and windows gone quickly, and the gas soaked carpets 'up in smoke' almost instantly, none of the bodies were kept at an enclosed, constant 1600-1800 degrees F for 30 minutes to an hour. (Meaning the walls and wood framing of the house may have continued burning around them, but the bodies may not have continued to burn as they were not actively 'on fire' and they were in the 'center', flames around them but not on them.)

I actually think it's difficult to keep a human body on fire (to the point of nothing being 'intact') considering the water content. So I'm guessing they were likely (sorry sweet babies) charred, externally, but otherwise 'intact'.

All this is laptop researcher opinion and speculation on my part.

Still yet, the bodies weren't recovered until the house had *completely* burned and even if the tissue from the lungs survived the billowing flames, how did the external skin survive it? (re: the injuries inflicted from the hatchet.) Unless of course, determination was made by markings on the skeleton/skull. And if that were the case, one would think smoke inhalation would be a non issue.

elfie
02-07-2012, 07:32 PM
House fires caused by gasoline & a match do not cause "instantaneous" explosions to windows. They usually take SOME time to spread. They don't 'explode' or erupt in the BLINK of an eye. They just don't. The location of the bodies, the condition of the bodies doesn't seem to be consistent with an immediate ball of fire and flames. I am not holding anyone responsible other than Josh Powell for what happened. It's not a conspiracy. But common sense tells me that either ALL the details of what happened haven't been released, or what's being released isn't the whole truth. Because what's being reported simply doesn't make sense. 2-3 minutes isn't enough time to execute this crime AND start an instant blaze to a home. And then to be able to recover the bodies in such amazingly good shape is even more perplexing. I don't know. It just isn't adding up for me YET. Anything's possible... but for me it needs to be probable.

Was his cousin in TX the first to notify 911 or was it the visit supervisor?

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53451811-78/leach-powell-josh-family.html.csp

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 07:38 PM
Was his cousin in TX the first to notify 911 or was it the visit supervisor?

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53451811-78/leach-powell-josh-family.html.csp

Not sure. The radio report (I posted a link in the thread) from the CPS Director states the case worker beat on the door, then the windows (not sure what she thought that was going to do, especially after detecting the smell of gasoline AND being locked out of the home but whatever), then she went to her car where she had left her phone (another puzzling detail for me) and then called her supervisor (another great big question mark) who then called 911.

jjenny
02-07-2012, 07:40 PM
Was his cousin in TX the first to notify 911 or was it the visit supervisor?

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53451811-78/leach-powell-josh-family.html.csp

Based on the scanner results, I'd guess neither. My guess right now it was a neighbor who saw the fire.
My reasoning is as follows: at first they did not know what caused the fire and if anyone was inside. They thought it might have been a meth house. If either the cousin or the supervisor made the first 911 call then they would have known that there were people inside, etc.

tlcya
02-07-2012, 07:46 PM
I genuinely thought I was ready to participate in this thread. I was mistaken.

elfie
02-07-2012, 07:49 PM
Have the complete autopsy results been released along with positive identification?

Melanie
02-07-2012, 07:50 PM
From the videos, the bodies were brought out on stretchers and still seemed to be "intact". In other words, they were not just bones under the blankets.

That leads me to think that the house was doused around the inside edges, by the time they got to the bodies, the fire had not reached them completely. Just guessing here.

That's what I'm thinking (after seeing the photos). Heat rises, as do flames -- always looking for the next thing to burn. I'm not a fire expert, but am recalling from what I've read. Plus the fire department was there rather quickly -- so my assumption is the flames spread upward and outward -- while the bodies were found in the middle of a room.

Bless the boys - this is so very difficult to talk about.

MOO

Mel

menmo
02-07-2012, 07:52 PM
What a cowardly, selfish deed. Josh didn't love his children, they were his property, much like I think he thought of Susan.
I've read some people say they have no words, but as for me, I have plenty I have said in my head to the evil one and his evil dad.
You know how you get that dreaded call in the middle of the night that your loved one has passed? That's the sinking feeling I felt when I read this on one of the other threads. An unbelievable, denying, wanting to blink and it not be real feeling.
I cannot quit thinking of how the state put those children in the evil one's control.......worse than a lions den. As much as I don't like it when people sue others at the drop of the hat, I do hope that the Cox's will consider suing whatever agency decided that the children could visit in Josh's home. Something has to be done to save other kids that are in danger right now.

God Bless the Cox family and the all the others that stood firmly behind them to try and save their beautiful grandsons.

ETA I hope this is a lesson learned by all that when people are fearful of children coming to harm around certain individuals they aren't just making it up. It happens. It's real. Above all children should always be protected regardless of parents wishes!
MOO

mamamia54
02-07-2012, 07:56 PM
Oh I have plenty of words and alot of time to put them all into one posting, but it's taken me this long to attempt to digest this ridiculous monsters actions. It almost shakes my faith, it honestly does.

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 08:01 PM
Have the complete autopsy results been released along with positive identification?

Yes, they have been released along with the names.

mysteriew
02-07-2012, 08:10 PM
I'm having computer problems so when I heard about this I couldn't get online. I was just in shock. I wondered if it wouldn't end with JP committing suicide, but I thought the boys were protected, at least for now by the Cox's having visitation and only supervised visitation with JP. But I thought that the supervised visitation would be at a neutral place, an office or park or somewhere. I had never thought that supervised visitation would happen at an uncontrolled location like the parents home.

Hearing that not only was there a fire and an explosion but that the boys also suffered "chop" injuries I just kept hearing JP telling the court what a good father he was. How his first thought was always for the welfare of the boys. And I just want to scream at him...... how is this supposed to be for the boys welfare? Is this what a "good father" would do?

In the end I can only take solace in one thought, a thought I wish I could have expressed to JP. In every religion I have known, evil people are always separated from the good. So he- in killing his wife and his children, he has pretty much guarenteed that he will be separated from them for an eternity.

tiredblondy
02-07-2012, 08:14 PM
Still yet, the bodies weren't recovered until the house had *completely* burned and even if the tissue from the lungs survived the billowing flames, how did the external skin survive it? (re: the injuries inflicted from the hatchet.) Unless of course, determination was made by markings on the skeleton/skull. And if that were the case, one would think smoke inhalation would be a non issue.

The chops would have stunned them, maybe knocked them unconscious. Then they would have died as a result of the smoke inhalation.

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 08:16 PM
The chops would have stunned them, maybe knocked them unconscious. Then they would have died as a result of the smoke inhalation.

I understand all of that. We are discussing how the bodies remained in tact enough to make the determinations considering the magnitude of the explosion / inferno :)

mysteriew
02-07-2012, 08:19 PM
The chops would have stunned them, maybe knocked them unconscious. Then they would have died as a result of the smoke inhalation.

They are describing the injuries as "chop" injuries from a hatchet. A hatchet has one sharp side and one blunt side. I am wondering if perhaps he used the blunt side on the boys instead of the sharp side. Anybody know if that is what happened?

elfie
02-07-2012, 08:20 PM
Yes, they have been released along with the names.

Just heartbreaking. :(

Magdalyn
02-07-2012, 08:27 PM
Still yet, the bodies weren't recovered until the house had *completely* burned and even if the tissue from the lungs survived the billowing flames, how did the external skin survive it? (re: the injuries inflicted from the hatchet.) Unless of course, determination was made by markings on the skeleton/skull. And if that were the case, one would think smoke inhalation would be a non issue.


A hatchet wound could go to the bone and not be fatal so long as it didn't sever an artery or the spinal cord, IMO, or at the very least, not be the thing that ultimately killed them. That they knew one boy sustained a chop wound to the head ... well, I'm pretty sure that went to the skull considering how close to the surface the skull is.

The neck has musculature and tendons beneath the skin that could have survived the fire (as they take longer to burn), or survived enough in it's burnt state to show an unnaturally clean, deep cut/slice. Also, the collar bone or underside of jaw could show chop wounds and still indicate the hatchet struck in the neck area.

I'm not sure what we're debating exactly, to be honest. Obviously, wherever they were in the house in relation to the fuel used and the hottest point of the fire, however the fire burned, whatever exploded or didn't explode, whatever accelerant was used, the facts are the ME had sufficient bodily structures and tissues to make the COD determination, and also to determine where chop wounds were inflicted. Therefore, no matter how horrific the fire was/looked, how long it burned with the bodies within the house, the heat level wasn't 'crematorium' heat level. If it had been, in 30-45 minutes, the boys would have been completely incinerated. Since they were not incinerated, the heat level had to have been such that some tissues (tendons, musculature) survived/were present, even in a burnt state, and still told a clear story. :twocents:

JDB
02-07-2012, 08:28 PM
I understand all of that. We are discussing how the bodies remained in tact enough to make the determinations considering the magnitude of the explosion / inferno :)

If the explosion was outward and where they found the bodies that would be the reason why .

indicat
02-07-2012, 08:28 PM
I understand all of that. We are discussing how the bodies remained in tact enough to make the determinations considering the magnitude of the explosion / inferno :)

All these questions we have would be answered in the full autopsy report. I wonder when they will be released or if they will be.

sherbetjello
02-07-2012, 08:33 PM
Was his cousin in TX the first to notify 911 or was it the visit supervisor?

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53451811-78/leach-powell-josh-family.html.csp

If someone has the presser video from yesterday handy, they said that fire and police were dispached from a call placed from the cousin. That's why when neighbors called to report the fire they were confused on how they were already in route.

jjenny
02-07-2012, 08:35 PM
If someone has the presser video from yesterday handy, they said that fire and police were dispached from a call placed from the cousin. That's why when neighbors called to report the fire they were confused on how they were already in route.

But the cousin would have no way of knowing there was a fire (because his e-mails and voice messages released so far said nothing about the fire), so am not sure how that makes sense. They are planning to release 911 calls today, I believe, so we will find out.

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 08:37 PM
A hatchet wound could go to the bone and not be fatal so long as it didn't sever an artery or the spinal cord, IMO, or at the very least, not be the thing that ultimately killed them. That they knew one boy sustained a chop wound to the head ... well, I'm pretty sure that went to the skull considering how close to the surface the skull is.

The neck has musculature and tendons beneath the skin that could have survived the fire (as they take longer to burn), or survived enough in it's burnt state to show an unnaturally clean, deep cut/slice. Also, the collar bone or underside of jaw could show chop wounds and still indicate the hatchet struck in the neck area.

I'm not sure what we're debating exactly, to be honest. Obviously, wherever they were in the house in relation to the fuel used and the hottest point of the fire, however the fire burned, whatever exploded or didn't explode, whatever accelerant was used, the facts are the ME had sufficient bodily structures and tissues to make the COD determination, and also to determine where chop wounds were inflicted. Therefore, no matter how horrific the fire was/looked, how long it burned with the bodies within the house, the heat level wasn't 'crematorium' heat level. If it had been, in 30-45 minutes, the boys would have been completely incinerated. Since they were not incinerated, the heat level had to have been such that some tissues (tendons, musculature) survived/were present, even in a burnt state, and still told a clear story. :twocents:

Indeed. The fact still remains there was an explosion, the house was reported as having actually levitated before imploding after the initial explosion, the structure was burned BEYOND the frame and the bodies were inside at extremely high temps for a long period of time. Regardless of how hot, a house completely engulfed in flames is freaking HOT. I imagine those babies didn't weigh more than 50 lbs each and aside from soft tissue, the fact there was anything at ALL left of their little bodies simply blows my mind. Period. The end.

Magdalyn
02-07-2012, 08:38 PM
They are describing the injuries as "chop" injuries from a hatchet. A hatchet has one sharp side and one blunt side. I am wondering if perhaps he used the blunt side on the boys instead of the sharp side. Anybody know if that is what happened?

If it was the blunt end, I'd think the wounds would have indicated 'blunt force trauma' and not a 'chop wounds'. But I don't know...

sherbetjello
02-07-2012, 08:39 PM
But the cousin would have no way of knowing there was a fire (because his e-mails and voice messages released so far said nothing about the fire), so am not sure how that makes sense. They are planning to release 911 calls today, I believe, so we will find out.

They are out there already, CNN has played a few. His cousin either got an email or a text which he responded to right away, but that's the news I've heard. Let me get on a real computer and search for it.

jjenny
02-07-2012, 08:40 PM
If it was the blunt end, I'd think the wounds would have indicated 'blunt force trauma' and not a 'chop wounds'. But I don't know...

I think that's accurate.

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 08:41 PM
But the cousin would have no way of knowing there was a fire (because his e-mails and voice messages released so far said nothing about the fire), so am not sure how that makes sense. They are planning to release 911 calls today, I believe, so we will find out.

See, this is the stuff that makes no sense. One would assume the case worker would have been the very first person to contact 911 since she was up front and center, real time. Either that or her supervisor. Crazy.

jjenny
02-07-2012, 08:42 PM
They are out there already, CNN has played a few. His cousin either got an email or a text which he responded to right away, but that's the news I've heard. Let me get on a real computer and search for it.

They released the voice mail JP left for his relative, I haven't heard the 911 calls about the fire. Who made the first 911 call?

sherbetjello
02-07-2012, 08:47 PM
Well, there are many people that called about the fire. It's REALLY hard to go back and search for all the videos I watched yesterday of the neighbors talking about the explosions. Maybe the media thread has it? So, neighbors called - thats 1. No doubt in my mind that the social worker called 9-11, none at all - so thats 2.

But, here is a link about the cousins receiving the text and calling 9-11.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/02/06/Powell-family-reacts-to-e-mails/UPI-41801328577662/

I must have gotten the 9-11 calls confused with the voicemails; I bet I read that wrong.
I haven't heard any 9-11 calls in the media.

I know mods have discussed staying on track in this thread, so maybe someone can open a "9-11 call" thread?

jjenny
02-07-2012, 08:49 PM
I realize there are many 911 calls but we are discussing who made the first one. The 911 calls have not been released but will be soon.

DLT88
02-07-2012, 08:52 PM
Not sure. The radio report (I posted a link in the thread) from the CPS Director states the case worker beat on the door, then the windows (not sure what she thought that was going to do, especially after detecting the smell of gasoline AND being locked out of the home but whatever), then she went to her car where she had left her phone (another puzzling detail for me) and then called her supervisor (another great big question mark) who then called 911.

Someone posted some kind of rule or something that the social worker's phones are car phones and can't be the kind you carry in your pocket. I totally forgot the reasoning behind that, though, but someone on WS posted it. Also, someone else who interviewed for a sw position was told she had to call her supervisor first in an emergency and never initiate the 911 call herself (which makes no sense to me but I suppose they have some kind of reason for that).

ynotdivein
02-07-2012, 08:55 PM
If there is not a 911 call thread, please someone go ahead and open one. This thread is about the COD for Charlie and Braden. :tyou:

Paige SC
02-07-2012, 08:58 PM
Someone posted some kind of rule or something that the social worker's phones are car phones and can't be the kind you carry in your pocket. I totally forgot the reasoning behind that, though, but someone on WS posted it. Also, someone else who interviewed for a sw position was told she had to call her supervisor first in an emergency and never initiate the 911 call herself (which makes no sense to me but I suppose they have some kind of reason for that).

I saw that post regarding the phones and I questioned it then. It's kind of off topic in a way but I really don't think that's protocol. As for calling supervisor before the authorities when a house is on fire.. well, I'm not even going there. All this is, is more or less speculation in trying to make sense of nonsense and this whole situation is just absolute, utter insanity. I guess we will just wait for the official report to come out.

passionflower
02-07-2012, 09:13 PM
Little ones were still alive after being attacked by monster.
They died of Carbon Dioxide.

Starry Night
02-07-2012, 09:15 PM
How old were they? (sorry)

DevilsPlayThing
02-08-2012, 01:36 AM
How old were they? (sorry)


http://www.websleuths.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=20796&stc=1&d=1328679178

Braden 5 and Charlie 7 Years Of Age.

TxLady2
02-08-2012, 08:40 AM
House fires caused by gasoline & a match do not cause "instantaneous" explosions to windows. They usually take SOME time to spread. They don't 'explode' or erupt in the BLINK of an eye. They just don't. The location of the bodies, the condition of the bodies doesn't seem to be consistent with an immediate ball of fire and flames. I am not holding anyone responsible other than Josh Powell for what happened. It's not a conspiracy. But common sense tells me that either ALL the details of what happened haven't been released, or what's being released isn't the whole truth. Because what's being reported simply doesn't make sense. 2-3 minutes isn't enough time to execute this crime AND start an instant blaze to a home. And then to be able to recover the bodies in such amazingly good shape is even more perplexing. I don't know. It just isn't adding up for me YET. Anything's possible... but for me it needs to be probable.

I think if he poured enough gasoline around the interior of the house before the boys got there, then the fumes being ignited might very well have caused the explosion. Most of the eyewitnesses described it as an explosion, it was not just a small fire that started and spread, apparently.
Haven't you seen cars burst into flames on impact, which is caused by the gas tank exploding from a spark? It's not the gasoline itself, it's the fumes that cause the explosions. They have pulled bodies out of wreckages of cars that burned, and the bodies were still intact, not blown apart.

MsWeatherwax
02-08-2012, 09:09 AM
Honestly, I think 2-3 minutes is more than adequate. I'm sorry to be so graphic, but three blows of an axe would take seconds, followed by dropping a lighter on the floor. I'd be surprised if the whole thing took more than 30 seconds.

hollyblue
02-08-2012, 09:41 AM
He broke their necks, imo, so they couldn't escape. If they died of carbon monoxide poisoning, that means they were alive in the fire. :mad:

At first I thought the "gas" smell was natural gas, but are we talking gasoline? Or maybe it was both? That would explain the rapid combustion and multiple explosions.

The hatchet (rather than axe) makes me wonder if that was Susan's murder weapon as well. With the hatchet, much more physical force would be needed to kill with, but not if your aim was to incapacitate and leave to suffer and wonder (as in: Mommy in the trunk). I wonder how sharp it had been honed to be? I bet there is a file found amongst the ruins.

Josh lived a coward and died a coward. :dervish: The demons below have a new plaything, I'm sure they'll have a field day with this punk.
:devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:

MOO

I think the demons had been around Josh for a loooooong time. IMO

Isabelle
02-08-2012, 10:53 AM
Do we know whether the axe strikes severed the spinal cord? I would like to think the blows were in hoped they would not suffer in the fire, but I know better.

Magdalyn
02-08-2012, 11:13 AM
Do we know whether the axe strikes severed the spinal cord? I would like to think the blows were in hoped they would not suffer in the fire, but I know better.

I don't think it did. According to information we have, the 'chop wounds' are on the head and neck of one child, and neck of the other. If the spinal cord was severed at neck level, I believe it would be listed as a partial or complete decapitation, and would have been the cause of death--as far as I know, severing the spine at neck level would paralyze the lungs. They wouldn't have been able to inhale carbon monoxide.

Honestly, I don't think Josh was all that concerned with their suffering.

Ronso
02-08-2012, 11:32 AM
I think part of the reason the bodies were still intact was also the fast response. Yes, the fire burned fast and hot, but it didn't burn long enough to incinerate the bodies. JMO

mck16
02-08-2012, 11:38 AM
I think part of the reason the bodies were still intact was also the fast response. Yes, the fire burned fast and hot, but it didn't burn long enough to incinerate the bodies. JMO

After hearing the news about the $7000 withdrawal Josh made prior to the tradgedy I certainly hope they did dna testing to make sure it was Josh in that house. Has anyone heard anything about that? tia

21merc7
02-08-2012, 12:39 PM
After hearing the news about the $7000 withdrawal Josh made prior to the tradgedy I certainly hope they did dna testing to make sure it was Josh in that house. Has anyone heard anything about that? tia

Nope, haven't heard, but DNA or dental would take some time. Unless he was not burned and his face was recognizable....

sherryk
02-08-2012, 03:10 PM
Honestly, I think 2-3 minutes is more than adequate. I'm sorry to be so graphic, but three blows of an axe would take seconds, followed by dropping a lighter on the floor. I'd be surprised if the whole thing took more than 30 seconds.

I was under the impression that the entire time from when the social worker left the door it was 2 minutes.. that was being reported on NG and JVM
HOWEVER
The 911 tapes the social worker clearly states that it has been about TEN minutes .. that she tried to get in the door.. and the call before the explosion was a good 3 minutes or more ( I would have to go back and get a exact time of duration of call)

911 call states that she (social worker) heard one of the boys crying..

It was more than 2 minutes.. I was under that assumption also until I heard the 911 calls.. which makes this that much more sad.. if there can be such a thing.. ten minutes.. that means those boys either got an earfull from father, a reason why and what was going to happen, and perhaps they lie there with the hatchet wounds for several minutes before the explsion...

I can only hope at this point that the boys were face down and did not see that hatchet coming at them.

MarthaM
02-08-2012, 03:18 PM
After hearing the news about the $7000 withdrawal Josh made prior to the tradgedy I certainly hope they did dna testing to make sure it was Josh in that house. Has anyone heard anything about that? tia


I got the impression that the woman supervising the visit was quite familiar with JP and knew very well that he was the one at the door who took the kids inside.

Tuffy
02-08-2012, 03:25 PM
Who knows what the criteria is for being a contracted case worker hired by the state? What training is required and involved? What sort of certification do you have to have? I want to know as an FYI. I'm curious. PS.. it's pretty bad when the government has to hire private agencies to help manage their case loads and accommodate the PARENTS of these kids that are being neglected and/or in danger. What is going on here?? Since when do INEPT parents dictate when and where SUPERVISED visitation takes place? I am simply livid - over it all.

In Missouri, in the case of my ex-boyfriend, there is no criteria other than both parties had to agree on who would supervise. They chose a woman who used to babysit for their daughter. The two parties also had to pay her (the supervisor). The supervisor was not hired by the state, but by the individual parties in the custody case.

The supervised visits were in the home for a while. Then they arranged to have them at the juvenile center. At that time, the supervisor was a county worker. Again, both parties had to pay for the time that was spent at the facilities.

mck16
02-08-2012, 03:27 PM
I got the impression that the woman supervising the visit was quite familiar with JP and knew very well that he was the one at the door who took the kids inside.

Oh yes, I agree with you on that, but could he have run out the back door? Probably not because someone would see him. But, this thought has been nagging at me since I heard about it. Then the money, well, just got me concerned more. Has there been any mention of a funeral for him? tia

Dal Gal
02-08-2012, 03:33 PM
I think that those poor boys could have been trying to escape from a window after they realized their father was a maniac. I can picture them running to a window or locked door and both of them struggling to open it with their backs toward their ax-slinging dad. If the fire was already roaring, they may have already been close to unconsciousness at the time Josh slashed at them to prevent them from saving themselves. The carbon monoxide was the official COD, but the chop wounds could have also been fatal if their lungs weren't already filled with the fumes.

I think that the ME will be able to determine a great deal about their last moments from those "chop wounds." From an article that I found: "Usually the lower end (heel) of the axe strikes the surface first, which produces a deeper incised wound than the upper (toe) end. The deeper end indicates the position of the assailant. In the skull, the undermined edge of the fracture defect is the direction in which the force is exerted, and the slanted edge is the side from which the force was directed. " (Chop Wounds are toward the end of the page) http://healthdrip.com/what-is-an-incised-wound/

JenniferTx
02-08-2012, 04:06 PM
I really don't understand why he would have taken the $7,000 out? If you were getting ready to kill yourself why in the world would you take $7,000 out unless you were planning on fleeing.

MarthaM
02-08-2012, 04:12 PM
I really don't understand why he would have taken the $7,000 out? If you were getting ready to kill yourself why in the world would you take $7,000 out unless you were planning on fleeing.


Maybe fleeing was his first plan, but then he abandoned it in favor of Plan B.

Dal Gal
02-08-2012, 04:14 PM
I really don't understand why he would have taken the $7,000 out? If you were getting ready to kill yourself why in the world would you take $7,000 out unless you were planning on fleeing.

To leave for his sister to avoid the bank account going through probate? It is now being reported that he sent her FOUR emails that she refused to turn over, so police have confisgated her phone: http://www.abc4.com/content/news/susan_powell/story/Police-confiscate-phone-belonging-to-Josh-Powells/jcp0BFYcike6Su5ApM3X-Q.cspx

Maybe it is his dad's money that was transferred to his own account to send the jailbird as needed, and again freeing it from probate? I can see that being a detail that Steve would have thought of if he knew what Josh was planning.

ETA: What they confisgated from Alina.

elfie
02-08-2012, 06:38 PM
I really don't understand why he would have taken the $7,000 out? If you were getting ready to kill yourself why in the world would you take $7,000 out unless you were planning on fleeing.

I still would like to know how the positive ID was made. I thought maybe the home was chosen because of the proximity of the road behind the house to the back door. I wouldn't have put it past JP to have put substitutes in place.

I know that I'm in denial and really don't want to believe those beautiful boys are gone. :(

Etilema
02-08-2012, 07:23 PM
I got the impression that the woman supervising the visit was quite familiar with JP and knew very well that he was the one at the door who took the kids inside.

I think the scenario we are wondering about is whether he had another person (dead body) in the house and he escaped out the back or whatever. That he did do the murders and started the fire in such a way that he could get away (remote detonation?).

I don't think that's what he did (I do think it was him they found dead in the house). But if he had done it that way, it would also explain the "necessity" for hatcheting the boys before starting the fire (so they wouldn't be able to run out before he blew the house up).

Etilema
02-08-2012, 07:25 PM
I really don't understand why he would have taken the $7,000 out? If you were getting ready to kill yourself why in the world would you take $7,000 out unless you were planning on fleeing.

If he didn't escape the fire, as we are wondering about, then the only other thing I can think of was that he wanted to give that money to someone.

DLT88
02-08-2012, 07:26 PM
I think the scenario we are wondering about is whether he had another person (dead body) in the house and he escaped out the back or whatever. That he did do the murders and started the fire in such a way that he could get away (remote detonation?).

I don't think that's what he did (I do think it was him they found dead in the house). But if he had done it that way, it would also explain the "necessity" for hatcheting the boys before starting the fire (so they wouldn't be able to run out before he blew the house up).

Oy, that possiblity never occurred to me. Sounds like something from a soap opera but it could happen, I suppose. But I think they used dental records to positively identify his body.

DLT88
02-08-2012, 07:27 PM
If he didn't escape the fire, as we are wondering about, then the only other thing I can think of was that he wanted to give that money to someone.

Maybe he had someone promise they wouldn't say what they know if he gave them $7K worrying that would happen after he was gone?

Etilema
02-08-2012, 07:27 PM
Oy, that possiblity never occurred to me. Sounds like something from a soap opera but it could happen, I suppose. But I think they used dental records to positively identify his body.

I agree that it most likely was him they found. But does anyone have a link to MSM stating that they positively ID'd him (through dental records or other means)?

Etilema
02-08-2012, 07:28 PM
Maybe he had someone promise they wouldn't say what they know if he gave them $7K worrying that would happen after he was gone?

Although, of course, after he is gone they could say whatever they want. . .

RoseWhite
02-08-2012, 07:29 PM
I would not be surprised if the money burned with Josh.

Etilema
02-08-2012, 07:31 PM
I would not be surprised if the money burned with Josh.

Wow. Just wow. What's horrible is that that doesn't seem to be an absurd thought!

DLT88
02-08-2012, 07:33 PM
Honestly, I think 2-3 minutes is more than adequate. I'm sorry to be so graphic, but three blows of an axe would take seconds, followed by dropping a lighter on the floor. I'd be surprised if the whole thing took more than 30 seconds.

That's what I would think. But I read an article (oy, I'll have to find it -- I read so many) telling the minutes the sw was on the phone and it sounded like it was a total of about 10 minutes before she said "He just exploded the house!"

That scares the heck out of me that those little boys were heard crying (or one was) and it was 10 minutes before the explosion (which, I hope, knocked those children unconscious). I don't like to think of their horror going on for so many minutes.

mrsu
02-08-2012, 07:44 PM
Maybe he put the money in an envelope and mailed it to someone? Guess we'll find out.

elepher50
02-08-2012, 07:45 PM
I have just now heard this news and this is total madness and very evil actions on the part of Josh Powell. What a whimpering, whining coward - a pity he wouldn't pick on someone his own size.

Dear god but this has stunned me to the core.

Josh was/is a total jerk.

May the Cox family find some measure of comfort in knowing that their sorrow is shared among many around the world.

Blessed awakenings to the two boys when they find themselves in the arms of their mother.

Victory
02-08-2012, 07:57 PM
Maybe he put the money in an envelope and mailed it to someone? Guess we'll find out.
I read or watched somewhere(?) that he transferred the money into someone elses account. I dont post much so I kept waiting for someone else to explain this but I seem to be the only person that watched or read it so now Im doubting myself.

karen7868
02-08-2012, 08:23 PM
I think the scenario we are wondering about is whether he had another person (dead body) in the house and he escaped out the back or whatever. That he did do the murders and started the fire in such a way that he could get away (remote detonation?).

I don't think that's what he did (I do think it was him they found dead in the house). But if he had done it that way, it would also explain the "necessity" for hatcheting the boys before starting the fire (so they wouldn't be able to run out before he blew the house up).

OMG. I thought I was the only one that thought of this scenario, especially since he withdrew $7000 the day before. Where did the money go?

According to the ariel pics, it looks like there was a street right behind the house, so he could have easily escaped via the back door.

And the utlities? Also, just the thoughts of blowing yourself up...I have a huge fear of dying in fire.

And then, there is why the hatchet? Like you said, he could have used it to keep them from running after him.

I just want to know where the money went (did he buy another car with it or could he have gotten his father's vehicle to escape in?

I hope LE knows 100% that it was JP's body, as far fetched as it sounds.

He just seems like such a coward to blow himself up.

mck16
02-08-2012, 08:27 PM
OMG. I thought I was the only one that thought of this scenario, especially since he withdrew $7000 the day before. Where did the money go?

According to the ariel pics, it looks like there was a street right behind the house, so he could have easily escaped via the back door.

And the utlities? Also, just the thoughts of blowing yourself up...I have a huge fear of dying in fire.

And then, there is why the hatchet? Like you said, he could have used it to keep them from running after him.

I just want to know where the money went (did he buy another car with it or could he have gotten his father's vehicle to escape in?

I hope LE knows 100% that it was JP's body, as far fetched as it sounds.

He just seems like such a coward to blow himself up.


Maybe I am a cynic, but that was the first thing I thought of. I want some kind of proof that it was that sorry sack of you know what. But, he seems so coniving and this case has been full of twists and turns. I ask again has anyone heard of any funeral plans for him? tia

karen7868
02-08-2012, 08:37 PM
Maybe I am a cynic, but that was the first thing I thought of. I want some kind of proof that it was that sorry sack of you know what. But, he seems so coniving and this case has been full of twists and turns. I ask again has anyone heard of any funeral plans for him? tia

Thanks for responding to my post.

Do you think LE knows 100% sure it was JP's body? Do you think LE has even considered this idea?

I haven't seen answer funeral arrangements for him. I did see where they have changed locations for the boy's funerals due to needing larger place.

mck16
02-08-2012, 08:49 PM
Thanks for responding to my post.

Do you think LE knows 100% sure it was JP's body? Do you think LE has even considered this idea?

I haven't seen answer funeral arrangements for him. I did see where they have changed locations for the boy's funerals due to needing larger place.

I think it would be easy to identify the boys because they were children, but I would think the cops would absolutely want to identify the adult body. But, I have not heard anything about that. I think it is strange too that not one word has been published or reported as to funeral arrangements or claiming his body. I would think the press would be all over that. Maybe they are keeping it a secret because they don't want any public displays of the hate everyone feels for him.

I couldn't live near that house knowing it was once inhabited by the devil. jmo

krimekat
02-08-2012, 09:07 PM
Susan's parents on NG right now . . .

www.rentadrone.tv/hln-live-stream-feed/

Sharai
02-08-2012, 09:36 PM
But even if he called them in one by one, the first one had to scream, which would have brought in the second. He had to be a monster to do all this. I guess desperation can do things to a person, but sometime, somewhere, somehow if a person is sane, they would wake up and say, "WHAT THE HELL AM I DOING"? Apparently he didn't and apparently the insanity just took over.
Individuals who are incapable of making and/or sustaining any significant positive change; who have little to no emotional and/or spiritual depth; and have no insight nor ability to develop insight into the affect their behavior negatively impacts others most likely have a pathological personality disorder. JP repeatedly exhibited these traits and many others, as does his father. We as a society need to become so familiar with the character traits of such individuals so that when they enter our lives their disorder is obvious and our natural inclination will be to remove ourselves from their presence and inform others of our observations. This knowledge needs to permeate our society such that mental health professionals, law enforcement, and those within the justice system can easily identify and protect the innocent. JP's disordered mind was evident to most who participate on this blog. It boggles my mind that the court system and/or child protective services did not readily identify the danger and take steps to protect these precious little boys from their pathological father. The horror they must have endured in the final moments ought to be a catalyst for change within the agencies responsible for allowing visitation. With the CA case, the need for a GAL was obvious. It is my understanding that the boys had a GAL. If so, apparently there needs to be more in-depth training for recognizing, identifying, and inhibiting the dangerous actions of pathological individuals such as JP. It is time to make some changes within a system (with all due respect) that is ignorant of the brain functioning of pathologically disordered individuals. JP's behavior is indicative of his disordered brain functioning. This does not excuse his actions it merely identifies his dysfunction. Who takes an ax to the sweet little necks of a 7 and 4 year old boy, in the presence of one another and then as they bleed out sets the house on fire? A pathological individual whom has been observed displaying numerous characteristics for the past two years of having a pathological mind, that's who. God help us to wake up to the reality of the presence of evil within our world and enable us to learn how and then provide adequate protection for the innocent. Shalom, Sharai

Sharai
02-08-2012, 09:50 PM
Yes, clearly very calculated to the last little detail, such as telling people to turn utilities off. Although why in the world he was worried about utilities is beyond my understanding, but maybe he was obsessed with utility bills while alive and couldn't let go?
It is odd that he was concerned about his utilities in light of his disregard for property and human life. Perhaps its code for something else, or an action of his fake personia of being a caring responsable individual. I am wondering about the money he withdrew the day before, too. What is that about? Why the need for money if he was planning on committing suicide. Donating the boys books and toys to charity is diabolical. He knew the day before that they wouldn't be needing them and gave them to charity, what an ironically diabolical action. The B-turd.

Magdalyn
02-08-2012, 10:04 PM
There's no reason they wouldn't have JP's dental records by now, IMO. (I'm a former dental assistant...I haven't worked in a practice, that I know of, where we to deal with ID'ing a patient while I was employed there, but in training, all the charting we do of unique dentition and existing restorations--well, we know that's one of many reasons we do it.)

If there were lungs left to determine cause of death being CO poisoning, his teeth survived the fire. Any dental work would still be there (crowns/root canals/posts/fillings) and even if he had no dental work, x-rays from routine dental cleanings would be easy to match up. Characteristics of untouched virgin teeth and how they are situated in your jaw, how wisdom teeth lay, if you only have one wisdom tooth or none, your front tooth his kind of crooked or chipped, etc, all are very person specific. Many times, dental x-rays and records can be pretty instantly electronically sent if the DDS is not local, records (with restorations size, shape, and location drawn out) can be faxed, and if the DDS is not electronically able, there's always Fed Ex overnight. If no records whatsoever, they can match teeth with pictures of the person showing teeth. The ME can get those online of JP. Your teeth are kinda like snowflakes and fingerprints in their uniqueness.

here's some info:

http://www.forensicsciencetechnician.org/8-body-parts-forensic-scientists-use-to-id-a-body/

http://www.crimemuseum.org/library/forensics/postmortemidentification.html

I'll add more links if I find them.

I'm not surprised we're not hearing about JPs funeral. Ryan Brunn killed himself his second day into his lifetime prison sentence after confessing he sexually molested, stabbed and killed Jorelys by---well, that's neither her nor there. Anyway, the funeral arrangements were kept very quiet until after the funeral was over. If I had that many people passionately hating on my high profile child murdering relative, I'd keep the funeral arrangements on the down-low/private too.

Off topic, but I honestly think we'll find the $7000 went to his sociopath training Papa for his Pukey Pedophile Defense Fund. :puke:

As far as how a bankruptcy filing, unemployed JP got $7000, don't 2 or 3 of his adult but living at home siblings get some sort of disability checks? I wonder if he 'managed' those funds and that was some of it, or if he skimmed from those funds since Papa was busy in prison... :waitasec:

Magdalyn
02-08-2012, 11:28 PM
It seems it's also possible to obtain fingerprints and palm prints from burnt bodies. Fingerprints can usually be turned around in 24 hours.

http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/MicrosilDecomposedFingerprint.html

http://www.bleaching-dental.com/articles/fingerprints_and_human_identification.html

When an individual is burned to death, the body will usually exhibit clenched hands. Clenching of the hands is a natural reaction that tends to protect the friction ridge detail on the fingers and possible residual prints left by the victim. Instead of forcing the fingers open, the tendon on the inside of the fingers should be cut and the fingers gently straightened. It may also be necessary to remove the fingers from the hand for examination. At this point, photography is advised to capture any ridge detail that may be present on the fingers. Hardened and loose friction skin ay be twisted off the finger, while epidermal skin that has lifted off the dermis but is still attached to the hand should be removed using forceps and curved Metzenbaum scissors for recording purposes.

New1
02-09-2012, 12:02 AM
I have a different take on the reason he tried to kill them with the hatchet. I don't think anyone will agree with me, but here's my thoughts on it. In his own sick mind, he loved those boys. That is why he killed Susan so she couldn't take his boys away. Remember, she was planning to divorce him? He tried to kill them or knock them out so they wouldn't feel the flames of the fire he knew he was going to ignite. This was his way of making their deaths less painful and quicker, only it didn't work. The blows he inflicted didn't kill them, but they might have been unconscious while they died of smoke inhalation. I hope they were.

Don't take this wrong. I am in no way excusing what this hellish monster did, but what other reason could there have been to try to kill them BEFORE the house was lit on fire? The fire would have killed them, so why attack them with a hatchet first?

alwaysonmymind
02-09-2012, 12:52 AM
Children have fire safety in school/daycare and are taught to get out if they smell smoke or gas or if there is a fire.

These boys were old enough to try to get out. IMO, Josh used the hatchet to prevent this. Not because he was concerned about the pain of the fire.

New1
02-09-2012, 12:55 AM
Children have fire safety in school/daycare and are taught to get out if they smell smoke or gas or if there is a fire.

These boys were old enough to try to get out. IMO, Josh used the hatchet to prevent this. Not because he was concerned about the pain of the fire.

Don't you think it is illogical to think a grown man could not have held two little boys, one in each arm, to keep them from getting out?

ETA: Also, the door was locked, so how could they have gotten out?

essies
02-09-2012, 01:02 AM
Children have fire safety in school/daycare and are taught to get out if they smell smoke or gas or if there is a fire.

These boys were old enough to try to get out. IMO, Josh used the hatchet to prevent this. Not because he was concerned about the pain of the fire.
BBM
ITA Josh didn't have the time to drug them as he probably did to Susan. He knew they would try to bolt and run when they got inside the house and sensed something terribly wrong was about to happen. That hatchet was used to subdue them and keep them from fleeing their death at his evil hands!!
:banghead: