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norest4thewicked
02-17-2012, 10:31 AM
Please put your thoughts here about Lisa and the river. There has been too much off topic discussion about the river and no thread for it.

norest4thewicked
02-17-2012, 10:31 AM
Little Zaylee Grace Fryar went into the Cumberland river here in Nashville with her mother and was never found. Her mother's body was found, an apparent suicide, but Zaylee never was. A baby is a pretty small body. When you compare 100+ pounds to a baby's weight, it's completely logical that this little body is just either caught somewhere underwater or that the elements just destroyed it. This is a horrible thought, but it happens.

http://www.wkrn.com/story/14601433/e...r-missing-baby

cityslick
02-17-2012, 10:43 AM
Bringing my post over from the previous thread.

Natsound had called KCPD back in December and had questions specifically about the river. I had to dig up the post to find it but here it is:

I asked about searches of the river. I was told that the river runs very fast through that part of town, and if a tiny baby had been thrown in the river, chances are slim that it would surface. I was also told that on the first day (October 4th), the fire department had been doing some training in that part of the river, and there were people on foot along the banks, and nothing was spotted.

liltexans
02-17-2012, 10:45 AM
It's not known for sure that Zaylee went into the river with her mother. It's a good possibility, but no one knows for sure. We have a thread for Zaylee here on WS.

norest4thewicked
02-17-2012, 11:11 AM
It's not known for sure that Zaylee went into the river with her mother. It's a good possibility, but no one knows for sure. We have a thread for Zaylee here on WS.


This thread is not about Zaylee, it is about Lisa and the possibility that she went into the river. I only mentioned her to suggest that a small body is not the same as a full grown person when in the water. I am one of many around here who believe that Zaylee went into the river with her mother. Again, I can't reveal why my thoughts run in this direction.

liltexans
02-17-2012, 11:16 AM
Yes, this is about Lisa, but your first post mentioning Zaylee didn't state that it was your opinion that Zaylee went into the river. It implied that it's a known fact that she did. It's very frustrating to navigate Lisa's forum when opinions are frequently presented as facts. It just adds to the overall misinformation in Lisa's case.

norest4thewicked
02-17-2012, 11:23 AM
Yes, this is about Lisa, but your first post mentioning Zaylee didn't state that it was your opinion that Zaylee went into the river. It implied that it's a known fact that she did. It's very frustrating to navigate Lisa's forum when opinions are frequently presented as facts. It just adds to the overall misinformation in Lisa's case.

We were discussing on another thread about Lisa and the river. I just brought my post over. Sorry that it confused you as you weren't in on the original conversation.

Also, what I post here is always my opinion, and I assume that is the same for everyone, unless they are speaking from an expert witness standpoint. I do have the advantage of knowing certain things, but I try to keep those limited if I can.

And, as we are not supposed to be attacking a poster, that is all I will say about that.

norest4thewicked
02-17-2012, 11:26 AM
Someone said on another thread (I think it was In Da Middle) that it would be difficult to get to the river from DB's house. Does anyone have any photos of the terrain going down to the river? Also, how far are the closest bridges to Lisa's house? TIA

passionflower
02-17-2012, 11:27 AM
During the Sandra Cantu case IIRC, I found a link (which I cannot find now)
that women usually dispose of children in containers in water......
back to the womb verses men who bury.
If the mother disposed of the baby I would think the river would be the way to go.

RANCH
02-17-2012, 11:29 AM
Little Zaylee Grace Fryar went into the Cumberland river here in Nashville with her mother and was never found. Her mother's body was found, an apparent suicide, but Zaylee never was. A baby is a pretty small body. When you compare 100+ pounds to a baby's weight, it's completely logical that this little body is just either caught somewhere underwater or that the elements just destroyed it. This is a horrible thought, but it happens.

http://www.wkrn.com/story/14601433/e...r-missing-baby

This link is broken.

norest4thewicked
02-17-2012, 11:30 AM
During the Sandra Cantu case IIRC, I found a link (which I cannot find now)
that women usually dispose of children in containers in water......
back to the womb verses men who bury.
If the mother disposed of the baby I would think the river would be the way to go.

Yes, I've heard many times that women go to water, men go to land. That makes me shiver...:(

norest4thewicked
02-17-2012, 11:32 AM
This link is broken.

Here ya go Ranch:

http://www.tbi.tn.gov/missing_children/documents/USTN_fryarzaylee_millersville.pdf

As liltexans said, there is also a thread here on WS for Zaylee.

norest4thewicked
02-17-2012, 11:35 AM
RANCH - The link I sent you was a link before her mother was found. Here is a better one. Mom was pulled out of the water downstream of where she went in.

http://www.newschannel5.com/story/14619391/amber-alert-issued-for-4-month-old-after-mother-found-dead

annalia
02-17-2012, 11:40 AM
I think it's very possible that had Lisa been placed in the water her little body would never be found. In cityslick's post it says that the river runs very fast in that part of town, it would not take much for a baby that size to be quickly swept away. We're talking about a baby, not a grown adult whose body may have been easier to find.

JMHO

liltexans
02-17-2012, 11:44 AM
Are there any locks and dams on the Missouri River in the KC area or just downstream from the KC area? Sometimes bodies have been found in rivers when they got caught in a dam. Of course, with Lisa being so relatively small compared with an adult, I don't know if her little body would get caught as easily.

norest4thewicked
02-17-2012, 11:47 AM
I think it's very possible that had Lisa been placed in the water her little body would never be found. In cityslick's post it says that the river runs very fast in that part of town, it would not take much for a baby that size to be quickly swept away. We're talking about a baby, not a grown adult whose body may have been easier to find.

JMHO

I agree. And, I think that it's possible that she went into the river in a container, possibly weighted down. If that is the case, then there might be a better chance for her to be discovered, but not if it stays on the bottom. We do know that many bodies in containers do surface eventually, but a container to hold her little body might not have been that large and could possibly just go along the bottom until it finally stuck somewhere. Horrible thought...:(

norest4thewicked
02-17-2012, 11:48 AM
Are there any locks and dams on the Missouri River in the KC area or just downstream from the KC area? Sometimes bodies have been found in rivers when they got caught in a dam. Of course, with Lisa being so relatively small compared with an adult, I don't know if her little body would get caught as easily.

I don't know the answer to that. Perhaps someone who is more familiar will come and tell us.

cityslick
02-17-2012, 11:52 AM
I agree. And, I think that it's possible that she went into the river in a container, possibly weighted down. If that is the case, then there might be a better chance for her to be discovered, but not if it stays on the bottom. We do know that many bodies in containers do surface eventually, but a container to hold her little body might not have been that large and could possibly just go along the bottom until it finally stuck somewhere. Horrible thought...:(

I think the fact that the fire department was doing drills is relevant. I don't know how relevant, a lot of it I think would depend on when she actually was placed in the river, when they started doing drills and how far down the river they (the FD) were. When Nat had originally posted that response from KCPD, my first reaction (which of course may be wrong) was that KCPD was going off an assumption that it is somewhat possible that the FD would had saw something, even with the current the morning of the 4th if BL was placed in the river.

Jacie Estes
02-17-2012, 11:56 AM
Someone said on another thread (I think it was In Da Middle) that it would be difficult to get to the river from DB's house. Does anyone have any photos of the terrain going down to the river? Also, how far are the closest bridges to Lisa's house? TIA

InDaMiddle and I both said that; for me, the statement comes from knowing the area and I'm certain InDaMiddle would say the same.

Brighton Ave was my alternate commuter route when there was an accident or traffic build up on 435. There are also casinos; I always went to Harrah's NKC, [spent enough time there to be comped trips to other Harrah's casinos around the country] I know that area. Armour Rd./210 has traffic 24/7 from the casino, as well as truckers. The casino part is a large boat on the water because that is what city regulation requires. There are security cameras with a water view. The same goes for casinos on the other [east] side of 435, away from Brighton Ave and Lister.

Harrah's North Kansas City
1 Riverboat Drive
North Kansas City, MO 64116
Directions
From Interstate 35:
Take exit 6A, 210 East (Armour Road) approximately one mile to Chouteau Trafficway. Go right heading south on Chouteau one-half block. Harrah's entrance is on the right.
From Interstate 435:
Take exit 55A, 210 West (Armour Road) approximately two miles to Chouteau Trafficway. Go south one-quarter mile to the entrance.

norest4thewicked
02-17-2012, 12:02 PM
I think the fact that the fire department was doing drills is relevant. I don't know how relevant, a lot of it I think would depend on when she actually was placed in the river, when they started doing drills and how far down the river they (the FD) were. When Nat had originally posted that response from KCPD, my first reaction (which of course may be wrong) was that KCPD was going off an assumption that it is somewhat possible that the FD would had saw something, even with the current the morning of the 4th if BL was placed in the river.

Yes, I agree, however, again, the river is so swift. Timing would have been important though, IF she went in the water upstream of there.

norest4thewicked
02-17-2012, 12:05 PM
InDaMiddle and I both said that; for me, the statement comes from knowing the area and I'm certain InDaMiddle would say the same.

Brighton Ave was my alternate commuter route when there was an accident or traffic build up on 435. There are also casinos; I always went to Harrah's NKC, [spent enough time there to be comped trips to other Harrah's casinos around the country] I know that area. Armour Rd./210 has traffic 24/7 from the casino, as well as truckers. The casino part is a large boat on the water because that is what city regulation requires. There are security cameras with a water view. The same goes for casinos on the other [east] side of 435, away from Brighton Ave and Lister.

Harrah's North Kansas City
1 Riverboat Drive
North Kansas City, MO 64116
Directions
From Interstate 35:
Take exit 6A, 210 East (Armour Road) approximately one mile to Chouteau Trafficway. Go right heading south on Chouteau one-half block. Harrah's entrance is on the right.
From Interstate 435:
Take exit 55A, 210 West (Armour Road) approximately two miles to Chouteau Trafficway. Go south one-quarter mile to the entrance.


Yes, I'm familiar. I lived in Liberty for 10 years and worked downtown. We just moved from there 3 years ago. I used the same route. I am actually more interested in the Argosy Casino area.

In da Middle
02-17-2012, 12:06 PM
Someone said on another thread (I think it was In Da Middle) that it would be difficult to get to the river from DB's house. Does anyone have any photos of the terrain going down to the river? Also, how far are the closest bridges to Lisa's house? TIA
I said it would be difficult in the middle of the night. During the day, not so much. No comparison to the difference maneuvering around obstacles are when you can see them or when you can't. It's not just like it looks on the maps. On the maps, you don't see the fenced off areas either.

The closest bridge is Chouteau Bridge. What most maps don't show you now is the new walkway that has barriers to cross to even get to the edge if you were to leave a vehicle and try to get to the edge to toss something over. The water doesn't even start until you are quite a distance across the river also. It would be very obvious if a vehicle was stopped on the bridge and somebody was to get out and cross over to the pedestrian area. It's a long, very hilly walk to that bridge from here plus many businesses with surveillance right there. Traffic at all times due to trucks going in and out of the industrial parks to the immediate south of it and a casino to the immediate north.

All of the other bridges in the city have traffic cams that are ptz cams.

Jacie Estes
02-17-2012, 12:10 PM
Last summer, 2011, was a 100 year flood event on the Missouri River. This originated in North Dakota, Montana and other north areas because of way above average snow pack. The flood extende all the way into southern areas with the loss of MANY homes. While there are locks and damns and retention ponds all along the river [that info can be found in the other river thread] there was major damage. Some of this damage was that riverfronts were eroded, in some places as much as a 20 ft drop, [an erosion of 30-50 feet from the original riverfront] from the bank to water level.

2011 Missouri River floods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have also seen years where the river water level was so low that traveling on a boat was not easy.

In da Middle
02-17-2012, 12:23 PM
Are there any locks and dams on the Missouri River in the KC area or just downstream from the KC area? Sometimes bodies have been found in rivers when they got caught in a dam. Of course, with Lisa being so relatively small compared with an adult, I don't know if her little body would get caught as easily.

No locks or damn for hundreds of miles of here. Both upstream or downstream.


I agree. And, I think that it's possible that she went into the river in a container, possibly weighted down. If that is the case, then there might be a better chance for her to be discovered, but not if it stays on the bottom. We do know that many bodies in containers do surface eventually, but a container to hold her little body might not have been that large and could possibly just go along the bottom until it finally stuck somewhere. Horrible thought...:(
The only thing about that is, they dredge the channel from pretty much bank to bank pretty much on a daily basis. They have to to be able to keep the barge traffic lanes clear. This is why our "floating" casinos here are not actually on the water. The channel is not deep enough in a wide enough area to be able to safely support barge traffic and casino traffic together. It has to be dredged to maintain a wide enough area as it is for just barge traffic. Most everything weighed down right here *should* have been dredged up.

I think the fact that the fire department was doing drills is relevant. I don't know how relevant, a lot of it I think would depend on when she actually was placed in the river, when they started doing drills and how far down the river they (the FD) were. When Nat had originally posted that response from KCPD, my first reaction (which of course may be wrong) was that KCPD was going off an assumption that it is somewhat possible that the FD would had saw something, even with the current the morning of the 4th if BL was placed in the river.
It just so happend that the regularly scheduled training drill was for that very morning. The boat ramp (the only boat ramp in the are until you get to Indep) across from Harrah's is where they take off from. It made good use of their training. They were also in at least 2 more times that month that I know of. Maybe more.

Yes, I'm familiar. I lived in Liberty for 10 years and worked downtown. We just moved from there 3 years ago. I used the same route. I am actually more interested in the Argosy Casino area.
Argosy is quite a bit west of here. Riverside, MO is where it is and they have vastly improved their levees so one would have to cross those to get to the river plus Argosy has a LOT of surveillance! This area is also dredged.

I am in no way saying that the river is not an option, I just don't think it would be right here. There are so many more easier access and more private areas east of 291 highway and north of Parkville.

Jacie Estes
02-17-2012, 12:30 PM
I said it would be difficult in the middle of the night. During the day, not so much. No comparison to the difference maneuvering around obstacles are when you can see them or when you can't. It's not just like it looks on the maps. On the maps, you don't see the fenced off areas either.

The closest bridge is Chouteau Bridge. What most maps don't show you now is the new walkway that has barriers to cross to even get to the edge if you were to leave a vehicle and try to get to the edge to toss something over. The water doesn't even start until you are quite a distance across the river also. It would be very obvious if a vehicle was stopped on the bridge and somebody was to get out and cross over to the pedestrian area. It's a long, very hilly walk to that bridge from here plus many businesses with surveillance right there. Traffic at all times due to trucks going in and out of the industrial parks to the immediate south of it and a casino to the immediate north.

All of the other bridges in the city have traffic cams that are ptz cams.

http://www.wxnation.com/kansascity/webcams/

norest4thewicked
02-17-2012, 12:30 PM
I said it would be difficult in the middle of the night. During the day, not so much. No comparison to the difference maneuvering around obstacles are when you can see them or when you can't. It's not just like it looks on the maps. On the maps, you don't see the fenced off areas either.

The closest bridge is Chouteau Bridge. What most maps don't show you now is the new walkway that has barriers to cross to even get to the edge if you were to leave a vehicle and try to get to the edge to toss something over. The water doesn't even start until you are quite a distance across the river also. It would be very obvious if a vehicle was stopped on the bridge and somebody was to get out and cross over to the pedestrian area. It's a long, very hilly walk to that bridge from here plus many businesses with surveillance right there. Traffic at all times due to trucks going in and out of the industrial parks to the immediate south of it and a casino to the immediate north.

All of the other bridges in the city have traffic cams that are ptz cams.

I wonder who monitors the PTZ cams if they have them on bridges? That would be quite a big job.

norest4thewicked
02-17-2012, 12:33 PM
Last summer, 2011, was a 100 year flood event on the Missouri River. This originated in North Dakota, Montana and other north areas because of way above average snow pack. The flood extende all the way into southern areas with the loss of MANY homes. While there are locks and damns and retention ponds all along the river [that info can be found in the other river thread] there was major damage. Some of this damage was that riverfronts were eroded, in some places as much as a 20 ft drop, [an erosion of 30-50 feet from the original riverfront] from the bank to water level.

2011 Missouri River floods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Missouri_River_floods)

I have also seen years where the river water level was so low that traveling on a boat was not easy.

Yes, that was a horrible event! With all that high and fast water, that would seem to be a good place to throw a tiny body (as awful as that sounds), but, at the same time, so much surfaces after flooding, you'd have thought that if she was in the water, that she would have somehow surfaced, especially if she was in a container. :(

norest4thewicked
02-17-2012, 12:40 PM
The thing about Casino cameras is that they are taped over and unless LE contacted every casino within a couple of days of Lisa's disappearance, they would not be available. I also don't know if every casino would have been checked. But, as IDM says, there are so many other private areas that it would seem to make no sense to go to a casino area where there are so many people.

dog.gone.cute
02-17-2012, 12:51 PM
Please put your thoughts here about Lisa and the river. There has been too much off topic discussion about the river and no thread for it.


JMO ... but I have always thought that the river was a "possibility" ...

The river is close to the home ...
The river is a "quick" and easy place to "dump" -- especially a "baby" ...
The river current was "running fast" ...

It would NOT surprise me in the least IF this is what happened ...

All MOO ...

iamnotagolem
02-17-2012, 01:35 PM
I know we've talked a lot about the direct route from the house to the river, but I think considering down river dumps is a good idea, too.

I wonder if there were any reports that night of anyone tossing things off a bridge. I know some places actually post all police calls in their local papers, I wonder if there is a way to go back and see if there were any police calls for any suspicious activity along the river or on bridges. Really anywhere along the river, but primarily downstream, as that would make the most sense.

ps. awesome thread idea

Jacie Estes
02-17-2012, 02:14 PM
No locks or damn for hundreds of miles of here. Both upstream or downstream.


The only thing about that is, they dredge the channel from pretty much bank to bank pretty much on a daily basis. They have to to be able to keep the barge traffic lanes clear. This is why our "floating" casinos here are not actually on the water. The channel is not deep enough in a wide enough area to be able to safely support barge traffic and casino traffic together. It has to be dredged to maintain a wide enough area as it is for just barge traffic. Most everything weighed down right here *should* have been dredged up.

It just so happend that the regularly scheduled training drill was for that very morning. The boat ramp (the only boat ramp in the are until you get to Indep) across from Harrah's is where they take off from. It made good use of their training. They were also in at least 2 more times that month that I know of. Maybe more.

Argosy is quite a bit west of here. Riverside, MO is where it is and they have vastly improved their levees so one would have to cross those to get to the river plus Argosy has a LOT of surveillance! This area is also dredged.

I am in no way saying that the river is not an option, I just don't think it would be right here. There are so many more easier access and more private areas east of 291 highway and north of Parkville.

Exactly, Argosy is up-river. Parkville has much better access to the river BUT it has more traffic and we know how far that is from Lister.

iamnotagolem
02-17-2012, 02:22 PM
What if the river was accessed at Birmingham Levee Rd? It's 2.3 miles from the house, it's a 7 min drive.

4Jacy
02-17-2012, 03:24 PM
IF, DB is responsible for Lisa's demise, there is no way she could have thrown her in the river. I'm sure if she did that she would be insane by now. Someone else had to do that for her.

Oh, the horror of all this, what the he// is wrong with people today!

iamnotagolem
02-17-2012, 03:32 PM
I was looking for information on how women kill and most common disposal methods. I was sure I'd read somewhere, and now can't find it, that women tend to wrap and use water as a disposal method. If anyone comes across that can you link me?

But during that searching, I came across this, which is quite interesting regarding women murderers, and quite surprising to me (I admittedly have my head in the sand about moms killing their babies).

http://crime.about.com/od/female_offenders/a/mother_killers.htm

A look at the rolls of women who are currently on death row, and the crimes that put them there, shows that women who kill their children are indeed not as rare as we would like to believe. Of the 49 women on death row, 11 killed children.

norest4thewicked
02-17-2012, 05:35 PM
I know we've talked a lot about the direct route from the house to the river, but I think considering down river dumps is a good idea, too.

I wonder if there were any reports that night of anyone tossing things off a bridge. I know some places actually post all police calls in their local papers, I wonder if there is a way to go back and see if there were any police calls for any suspicious activity along the river or on bridges. Really anywhere along the river, but primarily downstream, as that would make the most sense.

ps. awesome thread idea

That's a good idea. Does anyone know if it would be possible to find any info on this. It is a shot in the dark, but certainly would be a HUGE thing in this case! I will see what I can find out.

vlpate
02-17-2012, 06:46 PM
The thing about Casino cameras is that they are taped over and unless LE contacted every casino within a couple of days of Lisa's disappearance, they would not be available. I also don't know if every casino would have been checked. But, as IDM says, there are so many other private areas that it would seem to make no sense to go to a casino area where there are so many people.

Casinos are required to keep the tapes for seven days, but many keep them longer, up to six months, according to a friend who has worked in Casinos for about 15 years.

They did a search around a casino, IIRC, early on, but I don't recall the circumstances.

DeAnn
02-17-2012, 10:36 PM
Glad to see a river thread.

I know a lot of videos on this story aren't on the web anymore and many of you unlike InDaMiddle and me weren't following this story from the initial moments. So seeing the local stuff before it went national might be interesting to ya'll.

Here's video from a local television station's 10 p.m. news on Oct. 4.

You can see the river search from that first day and that officers with flashlights were searching behind baby Lisa's home that first night. Dogs were still out at 10 p.m. at night.

You can also see the work vehicle being apparently searched.

Wasn't sure what thread to put this in so chose this one.

http://www.kctv5.com/story/15611288/police-10-month-old-girl-abducted

Jacie Estes
02-17-2012, 10:56 PM
As per the video Deann posted; Lisa's bedroom window was 'askew'. Solidifies the intruder theory for me.

iamnotagolem
02-17-2012, 10:58 PM
As per the video Deann posted; Kisa's bedroom window was 'askew'. Solidifies the intruder theory for me.

I'm pretty sure that was based on the early reports that the window at the front of the house, with the screen bent, was Lisa's room. That was later corrected to the front window being the window to the computer room and Lisa's room was at the back of the house, from the back of the house Lisa's room is on the 2nd story (there is a basement & garage under the house).

norest4thewicked
02-17-2012, 11:01 PM
Casinos are required to keep the tapes for seven days, but many keep them longer, up to six months, according to a friend who has worked in Casinos for about 15 years.

They did a search around a casino, IIRC, early on, but I don't recall the circumstances.

That's interesting because I got different information on the cameras.

I know that they keep the cameras inside the casino for a longer period in case they need to refer back to it regarding a casino gambler, but that isn't the type of cameras that we are talking about. We are talking about cameras that record outside the area, around the perimeter, roads in the area, etc.

Whisperer
02-17-2012, 11:10 PM
I was looking for information on how women kill and most common disposal methods. I was sure I'd read somewhere, and now can't find it, that women tend to wrap and use water as a disposal method. If anyone comes across that can you link me?

But during that searching, I came across this, which is quite interesting regarding women murderers, and quite surprising to me (I admittedly have my head in the sand about moms killing their babies).

http://crime.about.com/od/female_offenders/a/mother_killers.htm

A look at the rolls of women who are currently on death row, and the crimes that put them there, shows that women who kill their children are indeed not as rare as we would like to believe. Of the 49 women on death row, 11 killed children.

My experience tells me that women often use water as the means but not as the disposal but I don't have the info to back up my statement...I am speculating.

I shared an office and worked with a woman who killed her child (18 mos). She told LE the child was abucted, that somebody came in the house and took her. She was OCD to the extreme.

norest4thewicked
02-17-2012, 11:15 PM
My experience tells me that women often use water as the means but not as the disposal but I don't have the info to back up my statement.

I shared an office and worked with a woman who killed her child (18 mos)

I know what you mean. I have heard for years that women put bodies in water and men in the earth, but can't find where I have heard it at. I've heard it more than a few times too.

That had to be horrible to realize after the fact that you worked with this person....

Whisperer
02-17-2012, 11:20 PM
I know what you mean. I have heard for years that women put bodies in water and men in the earth, but can't find where I have heard it at. I've heard it more than a few times too.

That had to be horrible to realize after the fact that you worked with this person....

It was like a war zone. I expected bad behavior of the inmates but not the staff who are there to help them. There were fifteen of us and seven were dead in the first five years.

I gave enough signals to admin but they paid me no mind. They told me to move but did nothing about her. She acted odd...and I was concerned but I never thought she would murder...but trust me her behavior was weird and she was a major drama queen. I moved out of that office two weeks prior due to her behavior. The constant cleaning was too much. Sure enough the baby was found in the trash...just like she did with every single thing in that office. If it wasn't locked down, it went in the trash. She drowned her in the tub. It was very sad.

Whisperer
02-17-2012, 11:38 PM
I have never thought of the river, as far as Lisa goes, and DB carrying this out. I see that many here have and it seemed like a good way to get rid of a body but I cannot picture DB putting her in the river. I need to know more about DB. The river is so vast and quick moving. I see more of a man doing that than a mother. I could be totally wrong.

It is very important to know the habits and routine of the suspect. I know her judgement is impaired. I know she may be OCD but I suspect another diagnosis also. I know nothing about her day or routine. Yes, I suspect she did something. Whether she remembers it or not is the question. I would guess she remembers but she could have blacked out or in a fog due to meds and alcohol.

She appears to be the defiant type. Did she go to the river with Lisa? Don't know. Did she go there before? Was it a spot she liked? If so, then I could put that on the list as a possibility. She would be more likely to place her in a familiar place.

Whisperer
02-17-2012, 11:53 PM
Samantha B should be able to provide much information about DB, JI and the entire day and night. It appears she is supporting the parents but sometimes that can be changed. What is her association with Mike L? Is she still talking with him?

There are enough people in this case to throw blame around. Which one is telling the truth would be the hardest thing to figure out. Clearly, DB and JI are not telling the truth...IMO.

Whisperer
02-17-2012, 11:56 PM
:offtopic:

two day old baby taken from hospital seven hours ago in Contra Costa. LE is stressing the child is NOT in danger. I have a feeling they are saying that to keep the darn father calm who stole her. He is 18 yrs old. Say a prayer. That baby needs to eat by now..oh my.

What is wrong with people FGS!!

norest4thewicked
02-18-2012, 12:18 AM
From the time that I began to believe that DB did something to Lisa, I have thought that she was in the water. I don't believe that any of us can put ourselves into that state of mind to try to figure out what she'd do. If she accidentally overdosed Lisa or forgot her in the bathtub and Lisa drowned, I think that DB would be in such a panic that she would do whatever it took to get rid of Lisa, if that was what she thought she had to do...either because she was drunk and not thinking clearly or because she knew she was responsible and felt that it would be easier to stage an abduction than to admit to her wrongdoing. I just don't see her being able to ask anyone to help her in something like this. I just don't see her having a choice.

norest4thewicked
02-18-2012, 12:18 AM
:offtopic:

two day old baby taken from hospital seven hours ago in Contra Costa. LE is stressing the child is NOT in danger. I have a feeling they are saying that to keep the darn father calm who stole her. He is 18 yrs old. Say a prayer. That baby needs to eat by now..oh my.

What is wrong with people FGS!!

That's horrible!

Whisperer
02-18-2012, 12:23 AM
I have to keep remembering that most infants are found safe...and quickly.

Whisperer
02-18-2012, 12:32 AM
Because the mind is not thinking logically at the time of crisis, a parent will usually do what is familiar to them. What I don't know is if DB did this, was she in a black-out, that could change things up. She may have been thinking and not panicking at all.

The only people that wouldn't crack would be Phil and Jeremy but can't imagine them knowing. The one thing we know for sure is that DB is a major chatterbox. So did she tell anyone after the fact? Or did she implicate somebody else? If the river a place that locals gather? We know the pings were close to the house, so my guess is that Lisa is/was also.

I can't even imagine going to the river at night..

KsStormy
02-18-2012, 12:43 AM
From the time that I began to believe that DB did something to Lisa, I have thought that she was in the water. I don't believe that any of us can put ourselves into that state of mind to try to figure out what she'd do. If she accidentally overdosed Lisa or forgot her in the bathtub and Lisa drowned, I think that DB would be in such a panic that she would do whatever it took to get rid of Lisa, if that was what she thought she had to do...either because she was drunk and not thinking clearly or because she knew she was responsible and felt that it would be easier to stage an abduction than to admit to her wrongdoing. I just don't see her being able to ask anyone to help her in something like this. I just don't see her having a choice.

I am of the same mind... if it ere some sort of accident, such as Deb was moving Lisa & dropped her, hitting her head on the dresser in her bedroom when moving her back to her own bed, for example, or overdose on cold meds, suffocation ( MANY cases of Crib Death have later been exposed as suffocation by an agitated, out-of-control parent) , etc., I can see her panicking & going into "cover-up mode", for fear of losing her son to her ex ( current husband) , knowing she would be blamed due to her intoxication. Or, it would be due to loss of temper, & obvious reason for cover-up. I seriously want to know if there were ANY running vehicle available to her...

norest4thewicked
02-18-2012, 12:48 AM
I am of the same mind... if it ere some sort of accident, such as Deb was moving Lisa & dropped her, hitting her head on the dresser in her bedroom when moving her back to her own bed, for example, or overdose on cold meds, suffocation ( MANY cases of Crib Death have later been exposed as suffocation by an agitated, out-of-control parent) , etc., I can see her panicking & going into "cover-up mode", for fear of losing her son to her ex ( current husband) , knowing she would be blamed due to her intoxication. Or, it would be due to loss of temper, & obvious reason for cover-up. I seriously want to know if there were ANY running vehicle available to her...

I have heard from some comments that the vehicle in the driveway was drivable and from others that it was not drivable. I know one of the neighbors (I think) said that it was always in the same place, so I don't know and I don't think that there is any absolute verification on this. And, of course there would be those who say that the cars have all been searched and cleared.

iamnotagolem
02-18-2012, 12:51 AM
I sometimes wonder if Lisa died of SIDs. Here are 2 things we know they didn't do to prevent SIDS:

6. Avoid exposing the infant to tobacco smoke. Don't have your infant in the same house or car with someone who is smoking. The greater the exposure to tobacco smoke, the greater the risk of SIDS.

7. Breast-feed babies whenever possible. Breast milk decreases the occurrence of respiratory and gastrointestinal infections. Studies show that breast-fed babies have a lower SIDS rate than formula-fed babies do.



I know the panic of waking up and your child not breathing, in mere seconds so much runs through your mind. You go from 0-800 in .02 seconds. Thankfully my son always started breathing as soon as I woke him up, before I could even wake my husband up.

Whisperer
02-18-2012, 12:51 AM
The white car they use was home that night. JI took the van.

KsStormy
02-18-2012, 01:10 AM
Thanks, NoR4W. What I think many people don't understand is just how bad the Mo river flooding really WAS.... this in itself would present a HUGE question of why NOT the river?? Just take a little bit & look up pics & videos of last summer's floods, to me it seems silly to disregard the river for ANY other place ,if we are talking about disposal of a body. Everyone in this area knew about the horrible, historic flooding. Everyone here KNOWS the history that the River has with bodies ( see Missouri River Killer, or Independence Avenue Killer,etc.) ... and the closest access to the river from the Irwin house is less than 3 minutes.
I have driven it, but have not got out & walked down to the river from that spot, as it Terrified me to be there. An older , local gentleman took it upon himself to try it, & reported it took him 20 minutes. Is this just TOO easy, the quickest, most likely place, just TOO obvious? I remember someone from KCPD saying something about how this case won't be solved for years -- anyone else remember that??
I Seriously wonder if this is because they believe Lisa is IN that damn RIVER
and they KNOW it's hopeless ...???? I posted the story here last night of the Missouri State trooper who was lost in the flood waters ...
http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/296622/3/Body-of-Mo-trooper-discovered-as-crews-fill-hole

-- I wonder if they just know how much it costs to perform these types of searches, & they just can't afford it?? I know they spent a LOT of $$$ looking for the Trooper, to no avail. He was found 200-300 YARDS from where he went missing, by Highway workers. Glean from that what you will.

iamnotagolem
02-18-2012, 01:23 AM
3 people went over Vernal Falls into the Merced River in July 2011. One was found 17 days later, one was found Nov 29, and one was found in December. It was known where they went into the river, the river is much clearer than the MO, it still took over 6 months to find all of the bodies.

norest4thewicked
02-18-2012, 01:27 AM
Thanks, NoR4W. What I think many people don't understand is just how bad the Mo river flooding really WAS.... this in itself would present a HUGE question of why NOT the river?? Just take a little bit & look up pics & videos of last summer's floods, to me it seems silly to disregard the river for ANY other place ,if we are talking about disposal of a body. Everyone in this area knew about the horrible, historic flooding. Everyone here KNOWS the history that the River has with bodies ( see Missouri River Killer, or Independence Avenue Killer,etc.) ... and the closest access to the river from the Irwin house is less than 3 minutes.
I have driven it, but have not got out & walked down to the river from that spot, as it Terrified me to be there. An older , local gentleman took it upon himself to try it, & reported it took him 20 minutes. Is this just TOO easy, the quickest, most likely place, just TOO obvious? I remember someone from KCPD saying something about how this case won't be solved for years -- anyone else remember that??
I Seriously wonder if this is because they believe Lisa is IN that damn RIVER
and they KNOW it's hopeless ...???? I posted the story here last night of the Missouri State trooper who was lost in the flood waters ...
http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/296622/3/Body-of-Mo-trooper-discovered-as-crews-fill-hole

-- I wonder if they just know how much it costs to perform these types of searches, & they just can't afford it?? I know they spent a LOT of $$$ looking for the Trooper, to no avail. He was found 200-300 YARDS from where he went missing, by Highway workers. Glean from that what you will.

I remember reading about the Trooper and his dog, and how sad that was.

My thoughts about Lisa being in the river were partially because of the terrible flooding and just what you said above. This would be so easy. We had historic flooding here in Nashville in 2010 and that water just is so destructive and runs so fast. And, the Cumberland river that flooded here had nowhere near the power of the "Muddy Mo".

redheadedgal
02-18-2012, 03:45 AM
The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children reports that women are likely to dispose of their children's bodies in ways suggestive of returning them to the womb — swaddled in blankets, wrapped in plastic, submerged in water.


http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_18151310

Dewey2Me1MoThyme
02-18-2012, 03:59 AM
I would think with the flooding it would be even harder to get to the banks of the river. I live within a few minutes of both the Wabash and the Ohio, and when they flood, you can't walk to the rivers edge b/c simply, you can't tell where you are. The water in New Harmony alone was right up to the steps of the tourist center. To walk to the river could mean falling in yourself in flood stages.

norest4thewicked
02-18-2012, 04:29 AM
The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children reports that women are likely to dispose of their children's bodies in ways suggestive of returning them to the womb — swaddled in blankets, wrapped in plastic, submerged in water.


http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_18151310

Thank you for this. I knew I wasn't going crazy and that I had read it before.

BBM - Both of these things are what I believe....sadly...

norest4thewicked
02-18-2012, 04:30 AM
I would think with the flooding it would be even harder to get to the banks of the river. I live within a few minutes of both the Wabash and the Ohio, and when they flood, you can't walk to the rivers edge b/c simply, you can't tell where you are. The water in New Harmony alone was right up to the steps of the tourist center. To walk to the river could mean falling in yourself in flood stages.

There are plenty of bridges in KC to throw something into the river. And, I just confirmed through Jim Spellman that there was an operable vehicle there that night at DB's disposal.

redheadedgal
02-18-2012, 04:35 AM
There are plenty of bridges in KC to throw something into the river...


doesn't really make sense to me that someone would use a bridge though... too much risk of someone driving by... ??


norest-- btw, i left a comment for you in the thread by superdave re: naming his book in the JBR forum :)

Dewey2Me1MoThyme
02-18-2012, 04:35 AM
There are plenty of bridges in KC to throw something into the river. And, I just confirmed through Jim Spellman that there was an operable vehicle there that night at DB's disposal.

I was referring to the flooding that was mentioned earlier, the bridges would be there flooding or no flooding. I just read jim Spellmans thread, he also stated that the car has not moved if I am reading that correctly.

norest4thewicked
02-18-2012, 04:38 AM
doesn't really make sense to me that someone would use a bridge though... too much risk of someone driving by... ??

Oh I definitely don't think it was the main bridge going into town.

norest-- btw, i left a comment for you in the thread by superdave re: naming his book in the JBR forum :)

Ok...thanks...:)

redheadedgal
02-18-2012, 04:39 AM
but the ppl who've stated that vehicle has not moved wouldn't have watched it that particular night though...

it might not have moved since oct 3/4...

but it doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't driven that night ...

norest4thewicked
02-18-2012, 04:40 AM
I was referring to the flooding that was mentioned earlier, the bridges would be there flooding or no flooding. I just read jim Spellmans thread, he also stated that the car has not moved if I am reading that correctly.

There were 3 vehicles there. One of them was their regular vehicle that they use (that one worked). There were 2 others at the end of the driveway. One did not work and it is unknown whether the other one worked or not.

hambirg
02-18-2012, 04:51 AM
What I don't understand is the idea that you have to be right on the river. Now granted I don't live near a large river, but I do live near Puget Sound. If somebody is going to throw something in the Sound they wouldn't walk right up to the bank and drop it in, they'd fling it as far as they can. Wouldn't somebody do the same in a river, so it goes out more towards the middle as opposed to getting hung up on the bank? :waitasec:

norest4thewicked
02-18-2012, 05:00 AM
What I don't understand is the idea that you have to be right on the river. Now granted I don't live near a large river, but I do live near Puget Sound. If somebody is going to throw something in the Sound they wouldn't walk right up to the bank and drop it in, they'd fling it as far as they can. Wouldn't somebody do the same in a river, so it goes out more towards the middle as opposed to getting hung up on the bank? :waitasec:

Exactly! I never figured that part out either, except that little Lisa weighed close to 30#, I think. And, the same goes for a bridge, which would even be easier to do. You obviously wouldn't drive to the very top of the bridge. Go toward the bottom and swing your arm out as far as you can.

hambirg
02-18-2012, 05:12 AM
Exactly! I never figured that part out either, except that little Lisa weighed close to 30#, I think. And, the same goes for a bridge, which would even be easier to do. You obviously wouldn't drive to the very top of the bridge. Go toward the bottom and swing your arm out as far as you can.

Yep, and the whole thing about Lisa being 30lbs is hooey. She would be waaaay off the charts for her age if she was 30lbs. She looked pretty average, and the growth charts for a girl her age at 50th percentile would be 19lbs. . .even at the 95th percentile she would only be 24lbs.

cityslick
02-18-2012, 10:06 AM
I'm going to with the fact that DB was at the very least buzzed, possibly flat out intoxicated. Shane mentioned when he saw the women outside it was pretty obvious they had been drinking. That being said, I do wonder if she was drunk enough to blow a .08 on a breathalyzer. I wonder if she would take that chance of getting into a car, trying to find a remote spot at the river where she could dump the body and then get back, risking a) someone seeing her and b) getting pulled over. I can't see someone doing this on a bridge though. Too risky, they wouldn't even know if there were cameras on the bridge and also better chance someone driving will see them.

Jacie Estes
02-18-2012, 11:42 AM
IF Lisa had been placed in the river, by any means/conditions, her body would either catch in submerged debris, catch in a boat ramp or docking facility for any of the numerous commercial terminals along the course of the river from KCMO to east of KCMO or would wash up on any of numerous sites along the river east of KCMO. Failing all of these the body would be stopped at the confluence of the Missouri and Mississippi.


http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.dnr.mo.gov/env/wrc/images/Missouri-River-Basin.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.dnr.mo.gov/env/wrc/interstwtrs/missouri_river.htm&h=404&w=591&sz=35&tbnid=K3XDQM_nqC-O_M:&tbnh=90&tbnw=132&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmissouri%2Briver%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3 Du&zoom=1&q=missouri+river&docid=FANXwwKbxPKEqM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G7k_T9KPNaXW2AX4rpSNCA&sqi=2&ved=0CE4Q9QEwAw&dur=2464

Missouri River - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Missouririvermap.jpg

Commercial terminals on Missouri:
http://www.nwk.usace.army.mil/rivercharts/Current/144%20Appendix%20B-1.pdf

Vertical clearance tables of Missouri:
http://www.nwk.usace.army.mil/rivercharts/Current/143%20Appendix%20A-1.pdf

Boat ramps on the Missouri:
http://www.nwk.usace.army.mil/rivercharts/Current/22%20Index%203.pdf

The Missouri is a big and demanding river. Keep in mind:
•On windy days can look more like a large reservoir with white-capped waves that can easily swamp a canoe.
•There are no rapids, but sunken sandbars, snags--uprooted trees stuck in the river bottom--that may or may not be visible above the water's surface, and other obstacles abound.
•An eddy is a sure sign of an obstacle just below the water's surface.
•The Missouri can be quite deep--20 feet or more in places.
•Know your paddling ability and don't exceed it.
•The thalweg or channel will change its course from year to year. This ten- to twenty-foot deep channel is constantly moving as it erodes banks, islands and sandbars and then builds up new sandbars or adds onto existing ones.
http://www.nps.gov/mnrr/planyourvisit/canoeing-and-kayaking.htm

River mileage begins at the mouth of the Missouri just north of St. Louis, MO. From river mile 0 to 752 (near Ponca State Park, NE), the river is channelized for barge navigation http://www.nps.gov/mnrr/planyourvisit/boating-in-the-mnrr.htm

List of tributaries of the Missouri River-Mouth to Kansas City
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tributaries_of_the_Missouri_River#Mouth_to _Kansas_City

redheadedgal
02-18-2012, 01:12 PM
IF Lisa had been placed in the river, by any means/conditions, her body would either catch in submerged debris, catch in a boat ramp or docking facility for any of the numerous commercial terminals along the course of the river from KCMO to east of KCMO or would wash up on any of numerous sites along the river east of KCMO. Failing all of these the body would be stopped at the confluence of the Missouri and Mississippi.

seems KC LE would disagree:

Now the Big Muddy around Kansas City has emerged as a secluded, silent and efficient helper to killers.

"I think people think when bodies are thrown in there they just disappear," said Bob Teichman, sheriff of Lafayette County, one of several counties in the Kansas City area bordering the river.

"They think they're getting rid of the evidence--which sometimes they do," Teichman said. "But in the last 10 years, we've probably pulled out about 10 or more bodies."

Bent agrees, saying killers are drawn to the river because the water can break down corpses, and then wash them away.


http://articles.latimes.com/1995-01-08/news/mn-17484_1_missouri-river


*plus, smaller objects might not get "caught" as easily... and if they did, they'd be easier to break apart if snagged/entangled imo.

DeAnn
02-18-2012, 01:43 PM
Not that I ever would but if I'm wanting to quickly dump a body into the Missouri River I'm doing it at La Benite Park. That's where I thought the Porter kids were dumped (I was wrong. I suck at Nancy Drew).

http://wikimapia.org/7667480/La-Benite-Park-Sugar-Creek-MO

Quick easy access and known hangout for sex. So a car coming and going at night wouldn't attract a lot of attention but it's a quiet area at night (you can see it from the 291 bridge over the Missouri River) Turn off your car lights and you probably could get in and out without being detected. To my knowledge, this area was not searched but it's like 20-25 minutes from Lister.

But then again.....if I grew up in Independence and eastern Jackson county and wanted to dump a body I'd go for the Little Blue River, not the Missouri River.That's where Summer Shipp was found. Her body was so decomposed that no arrest has been made even though police have a person of interest.


I wouldn't dump a body off the I-435 or Choteau Missouri River bridges because of the traffic.

norest4thewicked
02-18-2012, 01:48 PM
I'm going to with the fact that DB was at the very least buzzed, possibly flat out intoxicated. Shane mentioned when he saw the women outside it was pretty obvious they had been drinking. That being said, I do wonder if she was drunk enough to blow a .08 on a breathalyzer. I wonder if she would take that chance of getting into a car, trying to find a remote spot at the river where she could dump the body and then get back, risking a) someone seeing her and b) getting pulled over. I can't see someone doing this on a bridge though. Too risky, they wouldn't even know if there were cameras on the bridge and also better chance someone driving will see them.

But, what if she wasn't too drunk to drive? I mean, not making light of this, but if you have a dead child to dispose of and you have a choice of driving drunk and possibly getting caught or doing nothing and positively being caught, I think that I know what I would do. And, who knows if someone in that state of panic would even think about cameras being on bridges?

norest4thewicked
02-18-2012, 01:52 PM
IF Lisa had been placed in the river, by any means/conditions, her body would either catch in submerged debris, catch in a boat ramp or docking facility for any of the numerous commercial terminals along the course of the river from KCMO to east of KCMO or would wash up on any of numerous sites along the river east of KCMO. Failing all of these the body would be stopped at the confluence of the Missouri and Mississippi.




http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.dnr.mo.gov/env/wrc/images/Missouri-River-Basin.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.dnr.mo.gov/env/wrc/interstwtrs/missouri_river.htm&h=404&w=591&sz=35&tbnid=K3XDQM_nqC-O_M:&tbnh=90&tbnw=132&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dmissouri%2Briver%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3 Du&zoom=1&q=missouri+river&docid=FANXwwKbxPKEqM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G7k_T9KPNaXW2AX4rpSNCA&sqi=2&ved=0CE4Q9QEwAw&dur=2464

Missouri River - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_River)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Missouririvermap.jpg

Commercial terminals on Missouri:
http://www.nwk.usace.army.mil/rivercharts/Current/144%20Appendix%20B-1.pdf

Vertical clearance tables of Missouri:
http://www.nwk.usace.army.mil/rivercharts/Current/143%20Appendix%20A-1.pdf

Boat ramps on the Missouri:
http://www.nwk.usace.army.mil/rivercharts/Current/22%20Index%203.pdf

The Missouri is a big and demanding river. Keep in mind:
•On windy days can look more like a large reservoir with white-capped waves that can easily swamp a canoe.
•There are no rapids, but sunken sandbars, snags--uprooted trees stuck in the river bottom--that may or may not be visible above the water's surface, and other obstacles abound.
•An eddy is a sure sign of an obstacle just below the water's surface.
•The Missouri can be quite deep--20 feet or more in places.
•Know your paddling ability and don't exceed it.
•The thalweg or channel will change its course from year to year. This ten- to twenty-foot deep channel is constantly moving as it erodes banks, islands and sandbars and then builds up new sandbars or adds onto existing ones.
http://www.nps.gov/mnrr/planyourvisit/canoeing-and-kayaking.htm

River mileage begins at the mouth of the Missouri just north of St. Louis, MO. From river mile 0 to 752 (near Ponca State Park, NE), the river is channelized for barge navigation http://www.nps.gov/mnrr/planyourvisit/boating-in-the-mnrr.htm

List of tributaries of the Missouri River-Mouth to Kansas City
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tributaries_of_the_Missouri_River#Mouth_to _Kansas_City

I don't agree that anything is positive in this case and I don't believe that any of us can say that Lisa's body definitely would have done anything specific, if it was in the river. There are just too many variables.

Sparklin
02-18-2012, 02:00 PM
I sometimes wonder if Lisa died of SIDs. Here are 2 things we know they didn't do to prevent SIDS:

6. Avoid exposing the infant to tobacco smoke. Don't have your infant in the same house or car with someone who is smoking. The greater the exposure to tobacco smoke, the greater the risk of SIDS.

7. Breast-feed babies whenever possible. Breast milk decreases the occurrence of respiratory and gastrointestinal infections. Studies show that breast-fed babies have a lower SIDS rate than formula-fed babies do.



I know the panic of waking up and your child not breathing, in mere seconds so much runs through your mind. You go from 0-800 in .02 seconds. Thankfully my son always started breathing as soon as I woke him up, before I could even wake my husband up.

sorry, but how do we know they smoked in the house with the kids? How do we know that Deb didn't breast feed?

norest4thewicked
02-18-2012, 02:02 PM
Not that I ever would but if I'm wanting to quickly dump a body into the Missouri River I'm doing it at La Benite Park. That's where I thought the Porter kids were dumped (I was wrong. I suck at Nancy Drew).

http://wikimapia.org/7667480/La-Benite-Park-Sugar-Creek-MO

Quick easy access and known hangout for sex. So a car coming and going at night wouldn't attract a lot of attention but it's a quiet area at night (you can see it from the 291 bridge over the Missouri River) Turn off your car lights and you probably could get in and out without being detected. To my knowledge, this area was not searched but it's like 20-25 minutes from Lister.

But then again.....if I grew up in Independence and eastern Jackson county and wanted to dump a body I'd go for the Little Blue River, not the Missouri River.That's where Summer Shipp was found. Her body was so decomposed that no arrest has been made even though police have a person of interest.


I wouldn't dump a body off the I-435 or Choteau Missouri River bridges because of the traffic.

I've lived in Kansas City and while there is a lot of traffic during the day, there is a lot less traffic at 1:30 in the morning on a week night. The point is that there are a lot of places a lot closer to the N. Lister house that DB could have driven to, dumped Lisa and driven back home. Sure, she would have had to wait for traffic (if there even was any), but she could jump out of her car, throw something over the side of a bridge and jump back in in less than 30 seconds. The point is that this could have happened. In fact, I will even go so far as to say that I find this scenario as believable, if not more so, than to think that someone came into the house, stripped Lisa, burned her clothes, and then carried her around town for 4 hours.

cityslick
02-18-2012, 02:59 PM
But, what if she wasn't too drunk to drive? I mean, not making light of this, but if you have a dead child to dispose of and you have a choice of driving drunk and possibly getting caught or doing nothing and positively being caught, I think that I know what I would do. And, who knows if someone in that state of panic would even think about cameras being on bridges?

You may be right, of course it's all speculation. I think most of us agree that no matter what happened that night, it was not a pre planned event, at least there is no evidence to indicate that it was. So everything would of been seat of the pants, first thing that pops in your head as far as what she (or anyone) would do with BL once out of the house. What draws me away from her using any sort of vehicle is the fact that LE didn't seem to put enough into that theory to look at them further. They were never seized for further processing. I've been around enough of these missing child cases to know that most times the vehicles of the parent caring for the child are the first thing to get taken if LE has even of whiff that they were somewhat involved in transporting. We're all under the assumption that LE knows more than anyone here. I have to think if they thought the cars would somewhat play into what went on that night, they would of took them.

Dewey2Me1MoThyme
02-18-2012, 04:07 PM
I don't agree that anything is positive in this case and I don't believe that any of us can say that Lisa's body definitely would have done anything specific, if it was in the river. There are just too many variables.

In fact we don't know Lisa is dead, who removed her alive or dead from the home, or for what reason, so any speculation is just that at this point.

norest4thewicked
02-18-2012, 07:27 PM
You may be right, of course it's all speculation. I think most of us agree that no matter what happened that night, it was not a pre planned event, at least there is no evidence to indicate that it was. So everything would of been seat of the pants, first thing that pops in your head as far as what she (or anyone) would do with BL once out of the house. What draws me away from her using any sort of vehicle is the fact that LE didn't seem to put enough into that theory to look at them further. They were never seized for further processing. I've been around enough of these missing child cases to know that most times the vehicles of the parent caring for the child are the first thing to get taken if LE has even of whiff that they were somewhat involved in transporting. We're all under the assumption that LE knows more than anyone here. I have to think if they thought the cars would somewhat play into what went on that night, they would of took them.

I know what you are saying. My only thought about this is that Lisa was wrapped and sealed so well, that the dog missed it. I am just speculating, as we all are.

norest4thewicked
02-18-2012, 07:28 PM
In fact we don't know Lisa is dead, who removed her alive or dead from the home, or for what reason, so any speculation is just that at this point.

Yes, speculating, as we all are here. I'm pretty sure that is what this forum is for.

iamnotagolem
02-18-2012, 08:05 PM
In fact we don't know Lisa is dead, who removed her alive or dead from the home, or for what reason, so any speculation is just that at this point.

You are correct. But if by discussing it we brainstorm an idea that would help pinpoint where Lisa was likely put into the river, then we could direct a search in that area.

Say we discovered that someone was seen throwing something off a bridge 2 miles downstream. If there are cameras on the bridge, it's possible that LE could review those and determine if it's possible Lisa that was thrown in, then begin searching.

We all want Lisa found, preferably alive, but if her body could be recovered I think that would make a lot of us feel better. So trying to determine where she is, is beneficial in my opinion.

KsStormy
02-18-2012, 08:26 PM
Here is Riverfront Park, on the south side of the river. According to GoogleMaps, it is 3.6 miles, or a 10 minute drive.
The north side is the closest to the house, less than 3 min., but I am unsure of what the terrain is like along the bank there. Have heard from a local there is a walking path down to the river, but how many would know this?

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a346/Dorothy11/RFP.png

The north side is the closest to the house, but I am unsure of what the terrain is like along the bank there. Have heard from a local there is a walking path down to the river, but how many would know this?

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a346/Dorothy11/100_3137-1.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a346/Dorothy11/100_3136-1.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a346/Dorothy11/100_3138-1.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a346/Dorothy11/100_3139-1.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a346/Dorothy11/100_3141-1.jpg
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a346/Dorothy11/100_3142.jpg

norest4thewicked
02-18-2012, 08:32 PM
There is just a boat ramp from Riverfront Park (as shown above) and no walking path.

KsStormy
02-18-2012, 08:52 PM
There is just a boat ramp from Riverfront Park (as shown above) and no walking path.

I was talking about the north side of the river, by the Chouteau elevator.

iamnotagolem
02-18-2012, 09:03 PM
sorry, but how do we know they smoked in the house with the kids? How do we know that Deb didn't breast feed?

In her first story she said she put Lisa down with a bottle. That is a bottle, not a boob. She also said she was smoking outside. Smoke transfers through your clothes. I seriously doubt she changed and showered every time she came in from smoking.

Whisperer
02-18-2012, 09:03 PM
I have to keep remembering that most infants are found safe...and quickly.

:offtopic:

Last night, the two day old infant was found safe. Infant is fine. Father returned baby to mother @ hospital. Thankfully, 95%+ turn out just like this when it is a child under a year.

Sparklin
02-18-2012, 10:03 PM
In her first story she said she put Lisa down with a bottle. That is a bottle, not a boob. She also said she was smoking outside. Smoke transfers through your clothes. I seriously doubt she changed and showered every time she came in from smoking.

Many people don't breast feed once babies are walking/get teeth/start eating reg. food ~ so in actuality she COULD have breast fed. As for the clothes - that's not the same as smoking in front of your children.

Dewey2Me1MoThyme
02-18-2012, 10:06 PM
Yes, speculating, as we all are here. I'm pretty sure that is what this forum is for.

I'm confused what the different threads are for after tonight, but I was just stating my opinion, which is we don't know if the river is the place of disposal.

Dewey2Me1MoThyme
02-18-2012, 10:08 PM
You are correct. But if by discussing it we brainstorm an idea that would help pinpoint where Lisa was likely put into the river, then we could direct a search in that area.

Say we discovered that someone was seen throwing something off a bridge 2 miles downstream. If there are cameras on the bridge, it's possible that LE could review those and determine if it's possible Lisa that was thrown in, then begin searching.

We all want Lisa found, preferably alive, but if her body could be recovered I think that would make a lot of us feel better. So trying to determine where she is, is beneficial in my opinion.

I don't believe I stated it's not benefitial, and I agree, anything that helps find Lisa ALIVE or DECEASED is good.

norest4thewicked
02-18-2012, 10:13 PM
I was talking about the north side of the river, by the Chouteau elevator.

Sorry about that...I wasn't reading correctly.

norest4thewicked
02-18-2012, 10:15 PM
I'm confused what the different threads are for after tonight, but I was just stating my opinion, which is we don't know if the river is the place of disposal.

Yes, there are certainly a lot of them. This one is about the possibility that Lisa went into the river.

KsStormy
02-18-2012, 10:23 PM
Sorry about that...I wasn't reading correctly.

I'll show you the area I'm talking about in a few, uploading video I took same day I took the pics. Gives you an idea of the surroundings-- this is the most direct,quickest route to the river that I saw,by vehicle anyway, less than 3 min.
Here it is, hope this works - NE Birmingham rd -

100_3147.mp4 video by Dorothy11 - Photobucket@@AMEPARAM@@http://vid14.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid14.photobucket.com/albums/a346/Dorothy11/100_3147.mp4@@AMEPARAM@@vid14@@AMEPARAM@@14@@AMEPA RAM@@a346/Dorothy11/100_3147@@AMEPARAM@@mp4

Whisperer
02-18-2012, 10:32 PM
If she was placed in the river, I wonder what time of day because I really don't think it was at night. We now know that Lisa was not seen @ 4:30pm..that the story was put out there by Bill S. I would assume via DB. She need affirmation and a 4 yr. old might work.

Did Lisa die early in the day and this was all staged and a cover-up? Why would DB float the story about the 4 yr. old? Why would SB have to be conveniently gone when DB put Lisa to bed allegedly. Is there any surveilance of SB at the liquor store?

But most of was Lisa put in the river in daylight hours?

In da Middle
02-18-2012, 11:16 PM
I'll show you the area I'm talking about in a few, uploading video I took same day I took the pics. Gives you an idea of the surroundings-- this is the most direct,quickest route to the river that I saw,by vehicle anyway, less than 3 min.
Here it is, hope this works - NE Birmingham rd -

100_3147.mp4 video by Dorothy11 - Photobucket (http://s14.photobucket.com/albums/a346/Dorothy11/?action=view&current=100_3147.mp4)
good tunes!

Let's just say that you were on tape no less than 2 times on that short stretch. LE has pulled the tapes.

iamnotagolem
02-18-2012, 11:27 PM
Many people don't breast feed once babies are walking/get teeth/start eating reg. food ~ so in actuality she COULD have breast fed. As for the clothes - that's not the same as smoking in front of your children.

You are correct, she may have quit breastfeeding prior to 10 months, that's honestly not something I considered, but if she quit breastfeeding, then that still increases the risk of SIDS.

Where are you getting this information that inhaling cigarette smoke from clothes is not dangerous? Try googling "thirdhand smoke".

ETA: I did not mean that to be snarky at all. I just re-read that and it felt that way. Read it as me being informative, that was my intention.

norest4thewicked
02-18-2012, 11:29 PM
Thanks KSStormy! Great video and SHORT trip.

KsStormy
02-18-2012, 11:49 PM
good tunes!

Let's just say that you were on tape no less than 2 times on that short stretch. LE has pulled the tapes.

What??

iamnotagolem
02-18-2012, 11:52 PM
What??

I think she's saying you were caught on camera throwing Lisa in the river. Time to fess up!


j/k but it did really seem that way the first couple times I read it

hambirg
02-18-2012, 11:56 PM
If she was placed in the river, I wonder what time of day because I really don't think it was at night. We now know that Lisa was not seen @ 4:30pm..that the story was put out there by Bill S. I would assume via DB. She need affirmation and a 4 yr. old might work.

Did Lisa die early in the day and this was all staged and a cover-up? Why would DB float the story about the 4 yr. old? Why would SB have to be conveniently gone when DB put Lisa to bed allegedly. Is there any surveilance of SB at the liquor store?

But most of was Lisa put in the river in daylight hours?

Yep, that really changes everything, doesn't it? :waitasec:

KsStormy
02-18-2012, 11:56 PM
I think she's saying you were caught on camera throwing Lisa in the river. Time to fess up!


j/k but it did really seem that way the first couple times I read it

Um, Ok... very strange! :waitasec:

Dewey2Me1MoThyme
02-18-2012, 11:56 PM
I'll show you the area I'm talking about in a few, uploading video I took same day I took the pics. Gives you an idea of the surroundings-- this is the most direct,quickest route to the river that I saw,by vehicle anyway, less than 3 min. Here it is, hope this works - NE Birmingham rd -

100_3147.mp4 video by Dorothy11 - Photobucket (http://s14.photobucket.com/albums/a346/Dorothy11/?action=view&current=100_3147.mp4)

I'm confused, are you stating it is less than 3 minutes by car from the Irwin home to the river? I didn't even see the Irwin home in the beginning, the car was already up to speed when the video started, and it didn't end at the river. Maybe I'm reading your point wrong.

iamnotagolem
02-19-2012, 12:00 AM
Um, Ok... very strange! :waitasec:

I was just kidding. I'm not sure what she was saying, maybe just that there are several cameras along the route you took and LE has already reviewed those tapes and they didn't learn anything of value from them?

It would be interesting if you could get the tapes from the day you went so we'd know exactly where along the route you were seen and if that could have been avoided by someone in the know.

KsStormy
02-19-2012, 12:01 AM
I'm confused, are you stating it is less than 3 minutes by car from the Irwin home to the river? I didn't even see the Irwin home in the beginning, the car was already up to speed when the video started, and it didn't end at the river. Maybe I'm reading your point wrong.

- -I'm sorry, I drove up there twice w/ my dog(in the pics) & also know of others who have, plus Google maps. I posted another video that a poster here had made on the other thread ( Dog hit in DB's room or something) & if you watch the time from when he drives by house to same area,it's less than 3min. , I forgot that we changed to this thread. When I was there was on Nov. 26, I saw his video sometime after I went up there.

norest4thewicked
02-19-2012, 12:03 AM
good tunes!

Let's just say that you were on tape no less than 2 times on that short stretch. LE has pulled the tapes.

Can you share with us the info that would make that statement a fact? I'm curious as to exactly where the cameras are.

norest4thewicked
02-19-2012, 12:05 AM
I was just kidding. I'm not sure what she was saying, maybe just that there are several cameras along the route you took and LE has already reviewed those tapes and they didn't learn anything of value from them?

It would be interesting if you could get the tapes from the day you went so we'd know exactly where along the route you were seen and if that could have been avoided by someone in the know.

Yeah, I'd like to know where the cameras are exactly.

redheadedgal
02-19-2012, 12:56 AM
traffic cams?

http://www.kcscout.net/

iamnotagolem
02-19-2012, 01:01 AM
I thought the traffic cams didn't record. I think indepmo had links to that info on the thread he started with the vids he posted. I'll see if I can find it and link it.

KsStormy
02-19-2012, 01:04 AM
I was just kidding. I'm not sure what she was saying, maybe just that there are several cameras along the route you took and LE has already reviewed those tapes and they didn't learn anything of value from them?

It would be interesting if you could get the tapes from the day you went so we'd know exactly where along the route you were seen and if that could have been avoided by someone in the know.

Ok that makes more sense, I thought she/he meant that LE had pulled MY video, or something weird like that -- I have run into SO many weirdos surrounding this case on the FB pages , which is why I never went up for the public searches.

KsStormy
02-19-2012, 01:07 AM
traffic cams?

http://www.kcscout.net/

I wouldn't think there would be traffic cams on that little side road, more likely cams from one of the businesses along the river? As you can see it's a pretty shady area... but I wish the poster would clarify what he/she meant & how they know it. I would wonder why they had divers in the river here if they had video showing nothing?

Sherbie
02-19-2012, 01:34 AM
I'll show you the area I'm talking about in a few, uploading video I took same day I took the pics. Gives you an idea of the surroundings-- this is the most direct,quickest route to the river that I saw,by vehicle anyway, less than 3 min.
Here it is, hope this works - NE Birmingham rd -

100_3147.mp4 video by Dorothy11 - Photobucket (http://s14.photobucket.com/albums/a346/Dorothy11/?action=view&current=100_3147.mp4)

Thanks for the visual perspectives, KsStormy! And extra thanks for the Zep in the background! Woot! :rocker:

KsStormy
02-19-2012, 01:40 AM
Thanks for the visual perspectives, KsStormy! And extra thanks for the Zep in the background! Woot! :rocker:

You're welcome! Sorry it was so shaky, that area scared the @%^# out of me.... even my big tough Doodle dog was acting strange down there. Both times I have been down in that general area, it's like it is hard to breathe, just an eerie feeling.

Sherbie
02-19-2012, 01:50 AM
No need for apologies - you did a great job! I felt that way when I drove around the area involved in the Zahra Baker case. I think just the potential that anyone could harm a child and possibly have done so (or deposited them) so close to where you actually, physically are really makes it more "real," for lack of a better word. :hug:

redheadedgal
02-19-2012, 03:12 PM
Let's just say that you were on tape no less than 2 times on that short stretch. LE has pulled the tapes.


Can you share with us the info that would make that statement a fact? I'm curious as to exactly where the cameras are.


bump for norest

Junebug99
02-19-2012, 06:21 PM
If they tossed her in the river the odds of her being found at this point are zilch, that river has large fish in it, big enough to swallow that poor baby whole:(

Jacie Estes
02-19-2012, 07:04 PM
Can you share with us the info that would make that statement a fact? I'm curious as to exactly where the cameras are.

LE has pulled the tapes. LE has reviewed the tapes from that area.

Let's just say that you were on tape no less than 2 times on that short stretch. She drove one way and turned around and went back.

Cams are on the overhead bars where the stoplights are hanging.

Jacie Estes
02-19-2012, 07:07 PM
If they tossed her in the river the odds of her being found at this point are zilch, that river has large fish in it, big enough to swallow that poor baby whole:(

I was thinking about peeps that go noodling and got creeped out. :(

KsStormy
02-19-2012, 07:15 PM
LE has pulled the tapes. LE has reviewed the tapes from that area.

Let's just say that you were on tape no less than 2 times on that short stretch. She drove one way and turned around and went back.

Cams are on the overhead bars where the stoplights are hanging.

No stoplights on that little road.

iamnotagolem
02-19-2012, 07:23 PM
Are these traffic cams or red light cameras? B/c a red light camera is only going to take a picture if someone runs a red light. And I thought the traffic cams didn't record.

Minette
02-20-2012, 11:11 PM
I was thinking about peeps that go noodling and got creeped out. :(

What is noodling???

Sherbie
02-20-2012, 11:29 PM
Minette, I think it might be this thing where people get in the water and catch catfish with their bare hands. I saw a show about it on NatGeo or Animal Planet a while back.

Jacie Estes
02-20-2012, 11:48 PM
What is noodling???

There are really large catfish.

Method

Although the concept of catching fish with only the use of the arm in the water is simple enough, the process of noodling is more complicated. The choice of catfish as the prey is not arbitrary, but comes from the circumstances of their habitat. Flathead catfish live in holes or under brush in rivers and lakes and thus are easier to capture due to the static nature of their dwelling. To begin, a noodler goes underwater to depths ranging from only a few feet to up to twenty feet and places his hand inside a discovered catfish hole. If all goes as planned, the catfish will swim forward and latch onto the fisherman's hand, usually as a defensive maneuver, in order to try to escape the hole. If the fish is particularly large, the noodler can hook the hand around its gills.

Noodling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

indepmo
02-22-2012, 02:13 AM
LE has pulled the tapes. LE has reviewed the tapes from that area.

Let's just say that you were on tape no less than 2 times on that short stretch. She drove one way and turned around and went back.

Cams are on the overhead bars where the stoplights are hanging.

A very important fact that should be pointed out about the Chouteau Bridge that runs over the Missouri River. At the north end of the bridge there is a stoplight. On the bar for the signals, there are cameras.
Here is a sample view of what a traffic light camera can see:
http://www.modot.mo.gov/images/distr...cameraview.jpe (http://www.modot.mo.gov/images/districts/stlouis/cameraview.jpe)

These cameras do NOT record. Here is a paragraph giving out details about the stoplight cameras directly from MODOT (Missouri Department of Transportation):

Who is watching me through these cameras?

There is no constant surveillance or archiving of these images. The camera view is a fixed focus, fixed location image (there is no zooming or moving the cameras once they are installed). The image is analyzed by the camera processor ONLY for the simple presence of vehicles within defined areas or "zones". The resolution of the image by these cameras is NOT good enough to read license plates or distinguish any facial features.
MODOT source for above reference: http://www.modot.mo.gov/stlouis/links/signalcameras.htm

There is another camera system in Kansas City Missouri called KC Scout.
(kcscout.com)
There are no "scout" cameras on the Chouteau bridge.
If anything took place on the Chouteau bridge that night, it was not recorded.

Traffic light cameras vs. KC Scout cameras serve two different purposes.


No stoplights on that little road.
Not only have I explored that road (Birmingham), I have explored about every possible location you could think of to access the river. I have also explored other locations where surveillance systems could be installed. One of the locations I looked into was the BP gas station on the north end of the Chouteau bridge. The station closes at midnight I believe. The cameras point on the pumps and do not cover traffic on Chouteau Trafficway at all. I have also walked down the hill next to the bridge. It's not as steep as people make it out to be. There is a path that leads down the hill to the dead end of Birmingham road right below. From what I can gather, this path was made by homeless people that may reside under the bridge from time to time, and people that may want to fish under the bridge but don't want to park down at the dead end of Birmingham road in fears they might get ticketed for trespassing (railroad property). I have also driven down Birmingham road and under the Chouteau bridge and it's really simple to get out and walk to the water. You can also position your vehicle pointing towards the river with your headlights on to see at night. I have explored every inch of the road, all of the houses on the road, and the businesses. Getting back to the gas station, you can pull into the parking lot on the west side of the station, park, and not be seen on video. You could then walk out onto the walkway on the bridge. I also talked to someone on Birmingham road that stated the barricade at the end of the road isn't always up, and most recently in the last few months it was put in place mainly because of the traffic down there caused by the Lisa Irwin case. Nothing is impossible here. I have also explored the possibility of throwing cell phones out while traveling across the I-435 bridge as I stated I would try to do a few months back. Power windows, three corncobs and out the window they went. All went over with ease. Riverfront park (where the boat dock is) could be closed at night according to the signs, and they have a big yellow bar like most parks have that they could close at night but I am unsure if KC Parks & Rec stays on top of it and locks it up at night. You can see in one of the pictures posted in this topic where there is a boat ramp then the river. If you look to the right of Harrahs and look at the Chouteau bridge, just under it and to the right you can see the terrain isn't that difficult to get to the river from underneath it. Looking for more cameras, I drove into Harrah's casino from Chouteau Trafficway and there isn't a camera until you get in there about a 1/4 of a mile after going around a few curves and the first camera is at the parking garage. I will never rule out the river and all of the access points, especially after traveling to all of the areas and walking many of them.

madge
02-22-2012, 09:32 AM
I have not ruled out the river either. For me, the river is the fastest way to dispose of Baby Lisa's body AND the phones. Several people have driven and walked the river accesses and they all have expressed opinions that disposing of her in the river was quite doable.

Her body will most likely never be found. Deb can resume her adult time.:maddening:

norest4thewicked
02-22-2012, 11:03 AM
LE has pulled the tapes. LE has reviewed the tapes from that area.

Let's just say that you were on tape no less than 2 times on that short stretch. She drove one way and turned around and went back.

Cams are on the overhead bars where the stoplights are hanging.

Surely there are no cams recording every street in KC, or anywhere else for that matter. This road is too small to have anything recorded on it and cams are for red lights, not general traffic.

norest4thewicked
02-22-2012, 11:07 AM
A very important fact that should be pointed out about the Chouteau Bridge that runs over the Missouri River. At the north end of the bridge there is a stoplight. On the bar for the signals, there are cameras.
Here is a sample view of what a traffic light camera can see:
http://www.modot.mo.gov/images/distr...cameraview.jpe (http://www.modot.mo.gov/images/districts/stlouis/cameraview.jpe)

These cameras do NOT record. Here is a paragraph giving out details about the stoplight cameras directly from MODOT (Missouri Department of Transportation):

Who is watching me through these cameras?

There is no constant surveillance or archiving of these images. The camera view is a fixed focus, fixed location image (there is no zooming or moving the cameras once they are installed). The image is analyzed by the camera processor ONLY for the simple presence of vehicles within defined areas or "zones". The resolution of the image by these cameras is NOT good enough to read license plates or distinguish any facial features.
MODOT source for above reference: http://www.modot.mo.gov/stlouis/links/signalcameras.htm

There is another camera system in Kansas City Missouri called KC Scout.
(kcscout.com)
There are no "scout" cameras on the Chouteau bridge.
If anything took place on the Chouteau bridge that night, it was not recorded.

Traffic light cameras vs. KC Scout cameras serve two different purposes.


Not only have I explored that road (Birmingham), I have explored about every possible location you could think of to access the river. I have also explored other locations where surveillance systems could be installed. One of the locations I looked into was the BP gas station on the north end of the Chouteau bridge. The station closes at midnight I believe. The cameras point on the pumps and do not cover traffic on Chouteau Trafficway at all. I have also walked down the hill next to the bridge. It's not as steep as people make it out to be. There is a path that leads down the hill to the dead end of Birmingham road right below. From what I can gather, this path was made by homeless people that may reside under the bridge from time to time, and people that may want to fish under the bridge but don't want to park down at the dead end of Birmingham road in fears they might get ticketed for trespassing (railroad property). I have also driven down Birmingham road and under the Chouteau bridge and it's really simple to get out and walk to the water. You can also position your vehicle pointing towards the river with your headlights on to see at night. I have explored every inch of the road, all of the houses on the road, and the businesses. Getting back to the gas station, you can pull into the parking lot on the west side of the station, park, and not be seen on video. You could then walk out onto the walkway on the bridge. I also talked to someone on Birmingham road that stated the barricade at the end of the road isn't always up, and most recently in the last few months it was put in place mainly because of the traffic down there caused by the Lisa Irwin case. Nothing is impossible here. I have also explored the possibility of throwing cell phones out while traveling across the I-435 bridge as I stated I would try to do a few months back. Power windows, three corncobs and out the window they went. All went over with ease. Riverfront park (where the boat dock is) could be closed at night according to the signs, and they have a big yellow bar like most parks have that they could close at night but I am unsure if KC Parks & Rec stays on top of it and locks it up at night. You can see in one of the pictures posted in this topic where there is a boat ramp then the river. If you look to the right of Harrahs and look at the Chouteau bridge, just under it and to the right you can see the terrain isn't that difficult to get to the river from underneath it. Looking for more cameras, I drove into Harrah's casino from Chouteau Trafficway and there isn't a camera until you get in there about a 1/4 of a mile after going around a few curves and the first camera is at the parking garage. I will never rule out the river and all of the access points, especially after traveling to all of the areas and walking many of them.

One of the best posts that anyone has made with reference to how Lisa could have been put into the river...as well as the phones.

That is a lot of work and dedication that you did regarding this case. I'm sure that many will appreciate this...I know I certainly do. Thank you!

cityslick
02-22-2012, 11:23 AM
One of the best posts that anyone has made with reference to how Lisa could have been put into the river...as well as the phones.

That is a lot of work and dedication that you did regarding this case. I'm sure that many will appreciate this...I know I certainly do. Thank you!

How far is it from her house to the I-435 bridge and would she be able to toss the phones and BL (or just the phones) and be back in to the house at 3:45am (last vm attempt 3:20am).

KsStormy
02-22-2012, 12:19 PM
A very important fact that should be pointed out about the Chouteau Bridge that runs over the Missouri River. At the north end of the bridge there is a stoplight. On the bar for the signals, there are cameras.
Here is a sample view of what a traffic light camera can see:
http://www.modot.mo.gov/images/distr...cameraview.jpe (http://www.modot.mo.gov/images/districts/stlouis/cameraview.jpe)

These cameras do NOT record. Here is a paragraph giving out details about the stoplight cameras directly from MODOT (Missouri Department of Transportation):

Who is watching me through these cameras?

There is no constant surveillance or archiving of these images. The camera view is a fixed focus, fixed location image (there is no zooming or moving the cameras once they are installed). The image is analyzed by the camera processor ONLY for the simple presence of vehicles within defined areas or "zones". The resolution of the image by these cameras is NOT good enough to read license plates or distinguish any facial features.
MODOT source for above reference: http://www.modot.mo.gov/stlouis/links/signalcameras.htm

There is another camera system in Kansas City Missouri called KC Scout.
(kcscout.com)
There are no "scout" cameras on the Chouteau bridge.
If anything took place on the Chouteau bridge that night, it was not recorded.

Traffic light cameras vs. KC Scout cameras serve two different purposes.


Not only have I explored that road (Birmingham), I have explored about every possible location you could think of to access the river. I have also explored other locations where surveillance systems could be installed. One of the locations I looked into was the BP gas station on the north end of the Chouteau bridge. The station closes at midnight I believe. The cameras point on the pumps and do not cover traffic on Chouteau Trafficway at all. I have also walked down the hill next to the bridge. It's not as steep as people make it out to be. There is a path that leads down the hill to the dead end of Birmingham road right below. From what I can gather, this path was made by homeless people that may reside under the bridge from time to time, and people that may want to fish under the bridge but don't want to park down at the dead end of Birmingham road in fears they might get ticketed for trespassing (railroad property). I have also driven down Birmingham road and under the Chouteau bridge and it's really simple to get out and walk to the water. You can also position your vehicle pointing towards the river with your headlights on to see at night. I have explored every inch of the road, all of the houses on the road, and the businesses. Getting back to the gas station, you can pull into the parking lot on the west side of the station, park, and not be seen on video. You could then walk out onto the walkway on the bridge. I also talked to someone on Birmingham road that stated the barricade at the end of the road isn't always up, and most recently in the last few months it was put in place mainly because of the traffic down there caused by the Lisa Irwin case. Nothing is impossible here. I have also explored the possibility of throwing cell phones out while traveling across the I-435 bridge as I stated I would try to do a few months back. Power windows, three corncobs and out the window they went. All went over with ease. Riverfront park (where the boat dock is) could be closed at night according to the signs, and they have a big yellow bar like most parks have that they could close at night but I am unsure if KC Parks & Rec stays on top of it and locks it up at night. You can see in one of the pictures posted in this topic where there is a boat ramp then the river. If you look to the right of Harrahs and look at the Chouteau bridge, just under it and to the right you can see the terrain isn't that difficult to get to the river from underneath it. Looking for more cameras, I drove into Harrah's casino from Chouteau Trafficway and there isn't a camera until you get in there about a 1/4 of a mile after going around a few curves and the first camera is at the parking garage. I will never rule out the river and all of the access points, especially after traveling to all of the areas and walking many of them.

Thanks for answering questions I have had & I'm sure many others. I was too scared to get out on Birmingham, even with my big killer dog along. :what: Very spooky place for sure. I had wondered about Riverfront park closing at night as well, but still the closest place is by the elevator. The barricades were up when I went down, so was unable to go under the bridge, which for some reason I REALLY wanted to check out, glad you were able to.

Wanting2Help
02-22-2012, 01:03 PM
I know we've talked a lot about the direct route from the house to the river, but I think considering down river dumps is a good idea, too.

I wonder if there were any reports that night of anyone tossing things off a bridge. I know some places actually post all police calls in their local papers, I wonder if there is a way to go back and see if there were any police calls for any suspicious activity along the river or on bridges. Really anywhere along the river, but primarily downstream, as that would make the most sense.

ps. awesome thread idea

There is one report that I know of that has been discussed in other threads, not sure if its ok to post here, so please delete if not appropriate to post here....

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150559&page=37

Starting at post 918...

norest4thewicked
02-22-2012, 01:08 PM
How far is it from her house to the I-435 bridge and would she be able to toss the phones and BL (or just the phones) and be back in to the house at 3:45am (last vm attempt 3:20am).

You'd have to ask indepmo that. She is the one who did all the research. I live in Nashville now.

norest4thewicked
02-22-2012, 01:15 PM
Thanks for that. Myself and a couple of others here saw that on the scanner thread, but we knew that we weren't allowed to bring it over. This apparently is from another area. VERY interesting information indeed. I had my theory of Lisa being in the river long before I saw this, but this, combined with what indepmo told us this morning, is pretty telling to me.

norest4thewicked
02-22-2012, 04:14 PM
You'd think that this would be big conversation here today. Just making sure that everyone sees it.

hambirg
02-22-2012, 06:28 PM
You'd think that this would be big conversation here today. Just making sure that everyone sees it.

:thud:

I mapped it. Starting at Lister, to the place where somebody called in a report of somebody throwing something off a bridge, to the Starbucks that JI was working at that night. All I can say is :what:

http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=3620+N+Lister+Kansas+city,+MO&daddr=4343+Clary+Blvd,+Kansas+City,+MO+64130-2330+to:4101+Main+Street,+Kansas+City,+MO&hl=en&ll=39.094631,-94.536324&spn=0.162537,0.220757&sll=39.052252,-94.506798&sspn=0.162635,0.220757&geocode=FdyIVQIdG6Zd-ikZCMRTg_nAhzEKDBSyuqsgQQ%3BFZLLUwIdDb1d-imzDAEL4OTAhzFJ-I2MQaSuuw%3BFTLgUwIdxrpc-in5Ok6ow-_AhzGuxi9N2V6a2A&gl=us&mra=ls&t=h&z=12

iamnotagolem
02-22-2012, 06:42 PM
:thud:

I mapped it. Starting at Lister, to the place where somebody called in a report of somebody throwing something off a bridge, to the Starbucks that JI was working at that night. All I can say is :what:

http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=3620+N+Lister+Kansas+city,+MO&daddr=4343+Clary+Blvd,+Kansas+City,+MO+64130-2330+to:4101+Main+Street,+Kansas+City,+MO&hl=en&ll=39.094631,-94.536324&spn=0.162537,0.220757&sll=39.052252,-94.506798&sspn=0.162635,0.220757&geocode=FdyIVQIdG6Zd-ikZCMRTg_nAhzEKDBSyuqsgQQ%3BFZLLUwIdDb1d-imzDAEL4OTAhzFJ-I2MQaSuuw%3BFTLgUwIdxrpc-in5Ok6ow-_AhzGuxi9N2V6a2A&gl=us&mra=ls&t=h&z=12


Yup I did that last night. Pretty interesting.

prayers4missing
02-22-2012, 06:51 PM
:thud::what: Holy! I have no words.........

hambirg
02-22-2012, 06:54 PM
It just came to my attention that it may not be ok to post about that here. If so I'm sorry and please remove it.

In da Middle
02-22-2012, 07:13 PM
Not only have I explored that road (Birmingham), I have explored about every possible location you could think of to access the river. I have also explored other locations where surveillance systems could be installed. One of the locations I looked into was the BP gas station on the north end of the Chouteau bridge. The station closes at midnight I believe. The cameras point on the pumps and do not cover traffic on Chouteau Trafficway at all. I have also walked down the hill next to the bridge. It's not as steep as people make it out to be. There is a path that leads down the hill to the dead end of Birmingham road right below. From what I can gather, this path was made by homeless people that may reside under the bridge from time to time, and people that may want to fish under the bridge but don't want to park down at the dead end of Birmingham road in fears they might get ticketed for trespassing (railroad property). I have also driven down Birmingham road and under the Chouteau bridge and it's really simple to get out and walk to the water. You can also position your vehicle pointing towards the river with your headlights on to see at night. I have explored every inch of the road, all of the houses on the road, and the businesses. Getting back to the gas station, you can pull into the parking lot on the west side of the station, park, and not be seen on video. You could then walk out onto the walkway on the bridge. I also talked to someone on Birmingham road that stated the barricade at the end of the road isn't always up, and most recently in the last few months it was put in place mainly because of the traffic down there caused by the Lisa Irwin case. Nothing is impossible here. I have also explored the possibility of throwing cell phones out while traveling across the I-435 bridge as I stated I would try to do a few months back. Power windows, three corncobs and out the window they went. All went over with ease. Riverfront park (where the boat dock is) could be closed at night according to the signs, and they have a big yellow bar like most parks have that they could close at night but I am unsure if KC Parks & Rec stays on top of it and locks it up at night. You can see in one of the pictures posted in this topic where there is a boat ramp then the river. If you look to the right of Harrahs and look at the Chouteau bridge, just under it and to the right you can see the terrain isn't that difficult to get to the river from underneath it. Looking for more cameras, I drove into Harrah's casino from Chouteau Trafficway and there isn't a camera until you get in there about a 1/4 of a mile after going around a few curves and the first camera is at the parking garage. I will never rule out the river and all of the access points, especially after traveling to all of the areas and walking many of them.
SBM BBM
Yes. And you were caught on tape no less than 2x on this trip.
Two that I specifically know of. Maybe more. Anybody going down Birmingham road by vehicle is on tape. LE has gotten tape from them for that first week of October. One I specifically know of as I have spoken to the owner of the tapes and he told me that the owners of the other set of cameras were also asked, and complied with, turning over the tapes to LE. Walking down the path from Pour Boys probably would not be on tape, but anybody parking anywhere to get to the path would be.

The businesses and residents along Birmingham Road were tired of people driving down there and stealing scrap and machinery and many installed cameras for this reason - so they could get the vehicle and possibly plates of said vehicles.

Throwing phones off of any bridge would be absolutely no problem. Something as big as a baby, not so much.

In da Middle
02-22-2012, 07:21 PM
How far is it from her house to the I-435 bridge and would she be able to toss the phones and BL (or just the phones) and be back in to the house at 3:45am (last vm attempt 3:20am).
It, itself is probably 5 miles or so, but you have to go down to Front Street, which is another couple of miles south, to turn around. At that time Front Street was a total mess from major reconfiguration construction that was mainly going on during the night time hours. Very limited traffic flows and many delays. They were reconfiguring the underpass to what MODOT calls a converging diamond pattern. Total, utter, chaos under there then! No telling how long you could have been waiting for clearance to pass then.

annalia
02-22-2012, 07:25 PM
Thanks for that. Myself and a couple of others here saw that on the scanner thread, but we knew that we weren't allowed to bring it over. This apparently is from another area. VERY interesting information indeed. I had my theory of Lisa being in the river long before I saw this, but this, combined with what indepmo told us this morning, is pretty telling to me.

Wow, never heard this before, I wonder if there is anything to this! :what:

cityslick
02-22-2012, 07:58 PM
Wow, never heard this before, I wonder if there is anything to this! :what:

I find it very hard to believe that something like that would be related to the BL case and no media reported on it during October. Why are we now finding out out a scanner report from October. Plus, did the report mention where on the river it was spotted?

RANCH
02-22-2012, 08:02 PM
I find it very hard to believe that something like that would be related to the BL case and no media reported on it during October. Why are we now finding out out a scanner report from October. Plus, did the report mention where on the river it was spotted?

All I saw mentioned was "the bridge". It didn't specify over the river. I imagine that there is a whole lot of bridges in KC.

cityslick
02-22-2012, 08:10 PM
All I saw mentioned was "the bridge". It didn't specify over the river. I imagine that there is a whole lot of bridges in KC.

So in other words, we have no idea where this was spotted? I'm confused why the location of the Starbucks is relevant? The river isn't by the Starbucks.

RANCH
02-22-2012, 08:16 PM
So in other words, we have no idea where this was spotted? I'm confused why the location of the Starbucks is relevant? The river isn't by the Starbucks.

I'm confusd also. The address for the business of the lady who called in this sighting is kinda close to the Starbucks, but again not close to the river.

norest4thewicked
02-22-2012, 08:18 PM
SBM BBM
Yes. And you were caught on tape no less than 2x on this trip.
Two that I specifically know of. Maybe more. Anybody going down Birmingham road by vehicle is on tape. LE has gotten tape from them for that first week of October. One I specifically know of as I have spoken to the owner of the tapes and he told me that the owners of the other set of cameras were also asked, and complied with, turning over the tapes to LE. Walking down the path from Pour Boys probably would not be on tape, but anybody parking anywhere to get to the path would be.

The businesses and residents along Birmingham Road were tired of people driving down there and stealing scrap and machinery and many installed cameras for this reason - so they could get the vehicle and possibly plates of said vehicles.

Throwing phones off of any bridge would be absolutely no problem. Something as big as a baby, not so much.

Why would business owners have cameras pointed at the highway if they wanted to catch people stealing from their scrap pile? This doesn't make much sense. Surely their cameras were for identifying people in their lots, not driving down the street. If that was the case, they would pay thousands in equipment and tapes just to record the road. i can see LE getting tapes though just in case a suspicious vehicle happened to turn around there or drive through their lot. But, the cameras being trained on the road...doesn't make sense.

Also, I can't see throwing a bucket off the bridge to be any big feat whatsoever. It's all in either just dropping it or giving it a good swing. Not saying this can be done from a vehicle, but at that time of morning, not much traffic around that area and, even if someone saw it and reported it...(wait...someone DID report someone throwing something off the bridge)...it either is another piece of information that LE has now or it wasn't checked out and now will be.

cityslick
02-22-2012, 08:20 PM
Why would business owners have cameras pointed at the highway if they wanted to catch people stealing from their scrap pile? This doesn't make much sense. Surely their cameras were for identifying people in their lots, not driving down the street. If that was the case, they would pay thousands in equipment and tapes just to record the road. i can see LE getting tapes though just in case a suspicious vehicle happened to turn around there or drive through their lot. But, the cameras being trained on the road...doesn't make sense.

Also, I can't see throwing a bucket off the bridge to be any big feat whatsoever. It's all in either just dropping it or giving it a good swing. Not saying this can be done from a vehicle, but at that time of morning, not much traffic around that area and, even if someone saw it and reported it...(wait...someone DID report someone throwing something off the bridge)...it either is another piece of information that LE has now or it wasn't checked out and now will be.

Where did this happen? What bridge? How would LE not know about it if it was on police scanner?

norest4thewicked
02-22-2012, 08:24 PM
I'm confusd also. The address for the business of the lady who called in this sighting is kinda close to the Starbucks, but again not close to the river.

Sounds like the lady saw it on her way into work and called it in. Work was the location she called it in from. Maybe she didn't have a cell.

norest4thewicked
02-22-2012, 08:25 PM
Where did this happen? What bridge? How would LE not know about it if it was on police scanner?

Did I say that LE didn't know? Again, it's just a theory. I think that LE does know.

cityslick
02-22-2012, 08:27 PM
Did I say that LE didn't know? Again, it's just a theory. I think that LE does know.

I still think if it was relevant, it would of leaked to the media, especially since it was on the police scanner. I can't imagine the media not exploring that angle and asking about (to LE). For all we know she could of sighted it on the Kansas side of KC.

I think it proves people dump stuff in the river, but we knew that already.

RANCH
02-22-2012, 08:28 PM
Sounds like the lady saw it on her way into work and called it in. Work was the location she called it in from. Maybe she didn't have a cell.

So that means it could be any bridge between were ever this lady lives and works.

KsStormy
02-22-2012, 08:28 PM
I can't see someone taking the time to call in & report someone throwing something off any bridge unless it was something pretty substantial; I wouldn't think they would call in for someone littering, for example. I hope LE checked into it.

cityslick
02-22-2012, 08:30 PM
I can't see someone taking the time to call in & report someone throwing something off any bridge unless it was something pretty substantial; I wouldn't think they would call in for someone littering, for example. I hope LE checked into it.

You're not supposed to dump anything into the river. If your driving and see someone on a bridge throwing something over, it's at least a fine, no matter what it is.

KsStormy
02-22-2012, 08:31 PM
You're not supposed to dump anything into the river. If your driving and see someone on a bridge throwing something over, it's at least a fine, no matter what it is.

I realize that, but how often would you think people would call the police for someone throwing say a pop can off the bridge?

iamnotagolem
02-22-2012, 08:32 PM
You're not supposed to dump anything into the river. If your driving and see someone on a bridge throwing something over, it's at least a fine, no matter what it is.

While that is probably true, do you think someone would call 911 if they saw someone toss a pop can off a bridge?

iamnotagolem
02-22-2012, 08:32 PM
I realize that, but how often would you think people would call the police for someone throwing say a pop can off the bridge?

GET OUT OF MY HEAD!! Bwahahaha too funny

RANCH
02-22-2012, 08:34 PM
I can't see someone taking the time to call in & report someone throwing something off any bridge unless it was something pretty substantial; I wouldn't think they would call in for someone littering, for example. I hope LE checked into it.
BBM.
I can. I had some lady chase me down and accuse me of dumping used tires. She said she was going to call the cops. I never heard anything so I figured the cops thought she was crazy like I did.

cityslick
02-22-2012, 08:34 PM
While that is probably true, do you think someone would call 911 if they saw someone toss a pop can off a bridge?

No and it could of been something bigger. I wouldn't be surprised if stuff gets dumped over a bridge on a somewhat frequent basis on any of the KC bridges in a given night.

Without knowing where the siting happened, it's impossible to determine whether it's relevant.

iamnotagolem
02-22-2012, 08:40 PM
No and it could of been something bigger. I wouldn't be surprised if stuff gets dumped over a bridge on a somewhat frequent basis on any of the KC bridges.

Without knowing where the siting happened, it's impossible to determine whether it's relevant.

It's speculation, just like Jersey and Dane. We don't know if they are relevant. We don't know if the dumpster fire is relevant. We don't know if JI working that night is relevant, we don't know if JB & SB splitting up that day is relevant. We don't know if the HRD hit is relevant. We don't know if DB being drunk is relevant.

We are just discussing theories & possibilities, probabilities, statistics, etc

norest4thewicked
02-22-2012, 08:41 PM
I find it very hard to believe that something like that would be related to the BL case and no media reported on it during October. Why are we now finding out out a scanner report from October. Plus, did the report mention where on the river it was spotted?

Because some of us went back and read the scanner thread. I've known this for a couple of weeks now. If you read the thread, it seems to be lost in the conversation. This happened 2 1/2 hours before Lisa was reported missing. At the time it was reported, nothing was out of the ordinary. But, as I said before, there is no way that LE doesn't know about this.

And, I'm not going to discuss the scanner thread anymore because it is against TOS. Because someone else posted this here apparently from another forum, that's the only reason I am commenting at all.

iamnotagolem
02-22-2012, 08:44 PM
So that means it could be any bridge between were ever this lady lives and works.

I agree. It could be the bridge 1 mile from her work. Do we know if that was part of the search?

norest4thewicked
02-22-2012, 08:44 PM
So that means it could be any bridge between were ever this lady lives and works.

Yep...very true!

cityslick
02-22-2012, 08:45 PM
Because some of us went back and read the scanner thread. I've known this for a couple of weeks now. If you read the thread, it seems to be lost in the conversation. This happened 2 1/2 hours before Lisa was reported missing. At the time it was reported, nothing was out of the ordinary. But, as I said before, there is no way that LE doesn't know about this.

BBM

Correct, and media also monitors the police scanner reports so at some point you would think two and two would of been put together and someone would have inquired LE about it.

It's probably a good question to ask JS, if he heard anything about this in October when he was there.

norest4thewicked
02-22-2012, 08:45 PM
So in other words, we have no idea where this was spotted? I'm confused why the location of the Starbucks is relevant? The river isn't by the Starbucks.

Not the Missouri River...

norest4thewicked
02-22-2012, 08:51 PM
BBM

Correct, and media also monitors the police scanner reports so at some point you would think two and two would of been put together and someone would have inquired LE about it.

It's probably a good question to ask JS, if he heard anything about this in October when he was there.

Jim knows about this already.

And, how would we know what LE knows?

RANCH
02-22-2012, 08:57 PM
Jim knows about this already.

And, how would we know what LE knows?

He does? Do you know if he's going to try and find the lady who made the call and interview her? Or should we ask him to?

norest4thewicked
02-22-2012, 09:07 PM
He does? Do you know if he's going to try and find the lady who made the call and interview her? Or should we ask him to?

Nope...you'd have to ask him. I certainly can't speak for Jim.

Dewey2Me1MoThyme
02-22-2012, 10:44 PM
BBM

Correct, and media also monitors the police scanner reports so at some point you would think two and two would of been put together and someone would have inquired LE about it.

It's probably a good question to ask JS, if he heard anything about this in October when he was there.

In the same thread it also states several other call ins, one of which was a break-in in progress with the residents in the home. I find that very interesting too.

norest4thewicked
02-22-2012, 11:20 PM
In the same thread it also states several other call ins, one of which was a break-in in progress with the residents in the home. I find that very interesting too.

That night sure did have a lot of coincidences!

katydid23
02-22-2012, 11:25 PM
That night sure did have a lot of coincidences!

The fire in the dumpster, the dog stolen from the neighbor, the cell phones being cut off, JB moving out of his home, JI working the late shift....

Minette
02-22-2012, 11:37 PM
Could someone please point me to the scanner thread? Thanks!

RANCH
02-22-2012, 11:42 PM
Could someone please point me to the scanner thread? Thanks!

Here's a link.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

redheadedgal
02-22-2012, 11:48 PM
Not the Missouri River...


exactly.

the map that was posted shows two rivers/tributaries that wind around on either side of the starbucks... i tried looking at maps online and my atlases but i can't find the names of these rivers (most maps just label the major rivers)... i want to find out how deep they are, how fast they run (i.e. can a body be sufficiently hidden?), how accessible they are etc...

who's in with help?!!

krimekat
02-22-2012, 11:50 PM
It, itself is probably 5 miles or so, but you have to go down to Front Street, which is another couple of miles south, to turn around. At that time Front Street was a total mess from major reconfiguration construction that was mainly going on during the night time hours. Very limited traffic flows and many delays. They were reconfiguring the underpass to what MODOT calls a converging diamond pattern. Total, utter, chaos under there then! No telling how long you could have been waiting for clearance to pass then.

tee hee -- don't you love MODOT?! I64 was shut down for reconstruction & outdated bridge replacement (to allow semis to drive under) for over 2 years!!! It took over an entire hour to drive 20 miles from I270 (the Outer Loop) to the end of the construction zone. Worked 24 hours when weather permitted . . . older cities have their traffic snares!

The weather's been nice -- is DB hanging outside the front of the house? Any new news? Where is Pumpkin Pie?

Whisperer
02-22-2012, 11:54 PM
I don't know but I see a river disposal done by somebody not close to Lisa at all. If it were family, I just can't see them dropping her off a bridge.

krimekat
02-23-2012, 12:00 AM
exactly.

the map that was posted shows two rivers/tributaries that wind around on either side of the starbucks... i tried looking at maps online and my atlases but i can't find the names of these rivers (most maps just label the major rivers)... i want to find out how deep they are, how fast they run (i.e. can a body be sufficiently hidden?), how accessible they are etc...

who's in with help?!!

Brush Creek runs into the Blue River close to 4343 Clary Blvd, Kansas City, MO 64130-2330
There are no bodies of water near 401 Main Street but the Santa Fe National Historic Trail -- Foot Trail Primary (Trail or Other Non-Vehicular Thoroughfare) 3.76 miles runs through there; is that the address for the Starbucks?
according to DeLorme Topo USA

What bridge was something tossed from? I435? Round Grove Creek -- Stream runs under the expressway & connects with the Blue River (again, according to my geo software).

krimekat
02-23-2012, 12:33 AM
Someone at the Clary Blvd called in a sighting that something was being thrown from the I435 bridge (which is a distance of 1.11 miles as the crow flies) very early in the morning?

While I do not doubt there is a ton of light on I435, is it possible to see that far? Maybe a larger object than cell phones (ew)?

There is also a road Winchester Avenue (which hits Coal Mine Road) which crosses over the Blue River adjacent to I435.

Also, it's a wooded wetland in that area. I would assume that the creek & Blue River are not fast moving during the Fall -- the creek may not have any water in the Fall.

KsStormy
02-23-2012, 12:42 AM
Someone at the Clary Blvd called in a sighting that something was being thrown from the I435 bridge (which is a distance of 1.11 miles as the crow flies) very early in the morning?

While I do not doubt there is a ton of light on I435, is it possible to see that far? Maybe a larger object than cell phones (ew)?

There is also a road Winchester Avenue which crosses over the Blue River adjacent to I435.

Also, it's a wooded wetland in that area. I would assume that the creek & Blue River are not fast moving during the Fall -- the creek may not have any water in the Fall.

Except that there was major flooding in the summer... we've had such a drought lately, I wonder what levels are now? I am an hour south & haven't been up there since November.

krimekat
02-23-2012, 12:45 AM
Except that there was major flooding in the summer... we've had such a drought lately, I wonder what levels are now? I am an hour south & haven't been up there since November.

Date was 4 Oct . . . we had been doing rain dances in the Lou since the end of June. But again I'm 300 miles east.

KsStormy
02-23-2012, 12:47 AM
Date was 4 Oct . . . we had been doing rain dances in the Lou since the end of June. But again I'm 300 miles east.

True, there was a drought then here too... I was thinking of the MO river, which was still pretty high & running hard, don't know about the Blue...?

krimekat
02-23-2012, 12:54 AM
True, there was a drought then here too... I was thinking of the MO river, which was still pretty high & running hard, don't know about the Blue...?

Yeah, the MO River was very high here until early Fall & has continued to drop to scary levels

actually, the Blue River even through KC appears to be a larger watershed

http://www.brwa.net/newstream.htm

now I am going to want to take my bike there

KsStormy
02-23-2012, 01:17 AM
Yeah, the MO River was very high here until early Fall & has continued to drop to scary levels

actually, the Blue River even through KC appears to be a larger watershed

http://www.brwa.net/newstream.htm

now I am going to want to take my bike there

I've been wanting to take my dog exploring, he LOVES the water... just may have to make a little trip north ...:wolf2:

nursebeeme
02-24-2012, 11:26 AM
PLEASE THANK THIS POST BEFORE POSTING

The Lisa Irwin forum appears to be made up of cliques. You know, the type you have in high school before you begin to understand that there are a lot of interesting people and places in the world and your fear of such limits the personal boundaries you set for yourself. The disrespect between the two cliques is tiresome.


That being said, we need another review of the rules (which is really just a curtesy as everyone should know them or how to find and read them by now): This is NOT hard. Post YOUR thoughts, theories and interpretations (easy enough right?). Read the thoughts of others (not hard). Respond to those that may be of a like mind (okay, that should work). If you disagree with another poster and cannot post nicely, MOVE PAST THEIR POST (how hard is that?) If another poster gets under your skin, PUT THEM ON IGNORE (only takes about a minute). If you must refute their post - then use a link and state the fact as YOU see it (you all know this case, it can't be that hard). THEN DROP IT! That's it. See, not hard. If a post offends you, ALERT it, DO NOT RESPOND TO IT, and MOVE ON. It is okay to disagree, but it is NOT OKAY to attack or make fun of others. AND THE SNARK...well, that needs to just STOP.



It is our hope this gets the message across. There are many good posters here and no matter what opinion we may hold on who we feel is responsible we all are here for Lisa Irwin and want her to come home safely and soon.

Thanks so much,

The Lisa Irwin forum moderators

krimekat
02-24-2012, 05:56 PM
thanks, Nurse . . .

In da Middle
02-24-2012, 07:27 PM
Why would business owners have cameras pointed at the highway if they wanted to catch people stealing from their scrap pile? This doesn't make much sense. Surely their cameras were for identifying people in their lots, not driving down the street. If that was the case, they would pay thousands in equipment and tapes just to record the road. i can see LE getting tapes though just in case a suspicious vehicle happened to turn around there or drive through their lot. But, the cameras being trained on the road...doesn't make sense.

Also, I can't see throwing a bucket off the bridge to be any big feat whatsoever. It's all in either just dropping it or giving it a good swing. Not saying this can be done from a vehicle, but at that time of morning, not much traffic around that area and, even if someone saw it and reported it...(wait...someone DID report someone throwing something off the bridge)...it either is another piece of information that LE has now or it wasn't checked out and now will be.BBM
Highway? They are pointed at Birmingham Road as i stated. LE told them that they needed as much identifying info as they could get to even think of prosecution that being ideally vehicle/tag info to see if that vehicle shows up at scrap yards.

In da Middle
02-24-2012, 07:35 PM
True, there was a drought then here too... I was thinking of the MO river, which was still pretty high & running hard, don't know about the Blue...?
The Blue River was actually running backwards during the height of the flooding because the Mo River was flowing INTO it instead of the Blue flowing into the MO. Oct 4th it should have been running correctly and receding as the Mo. had just started receding. All are in their banks or running low now.

norest4thewicked
02-24-2012, 08:20 PM
BBM
Highway? They are pointed at Birmingham Road as i stated. LE told them that they needed as much identifying info as they could get to even think of prosecution that being ideally vehicle/tag info to see if that vehicle shows up at scrap yards.

Ok...road, highway, roadway, etc. But, camera's would be pointed at their parking lot, storage area, etc. if they wanted to find vehicles actually ON their property. If they pointed it at the road, it wouldn't make sense because they would miss too much. I can see them having a motion camera that would be triggered once there was movement in the lot area, but a camera pointed on the people passing by...not so much.

In da Middle
02-24-2012, 08:26 PM
Ok...road, highway, roadway, etc. But, camera's would be pointed at their parking lot, storage area, etc. if they wanted to find vehicles actually ON their property. If they pointed it at the road, it wouldn't make sense because they would miss too much. I can see them having a motion camera that would be triggered once there was movement in the lot area, but a camera pointed on the people passing by...not so much.
One of them (of several they have) is situated where they can capture anybody leaving/entering their property. This same shot also captures anybody traveling down the road itself where it is situated.

norest4thewicked
02-24-2012, 08:28 PM
A very important fact that should be pointed out about the Chouteau Bridge that runs over the Missouri River. At the north end of the bridge there is a stoplight. On the bar for the signals, there are cameras.
Here is a sample view of what a traffic light camera can see:
http://www.modot.mo.gov/images/distr...cameraview.jpe (http://www.modot.mo.gov/images/districts/stlouis/cameraview.jpe)

These cameras do NOT record. Here is a paragraph giving out details about the stoplight cameras directly from MODOT (Missouri Department of Transportation):

Who is watching me through these cameras?

There is no constant surveillance or archiving of these images. The camera view is a fixed focus, fixed location image (there is no zooming or moving the cameras once they are installed). The image is analyzed by the camera processor ONLY for the simple presence of vehicles within defined areas or "zones". The resolution of the image by these cameras is NOT good enough to read license plates or distinguish any facial features.
MODOT source for above reference: http://www.modot.mo.gov/stlouis/links/signalcameras.htm

There is another camera system in Kansas City Missouri called KC Scout.
(kcscout.com)
There are no "scout" cameras on the Chouteau bridge.
If anything took place on the Chouteau bridge that night, it was not recorded.

Traffic light cameras vs. KC Scout cameras serve two different purposes.


Not only have I explored that road (Birmingham), I have explored about every possible location you could think of to access the river. I have also explored other locations where surveillance systems could be installed. One of the locations I looked into was the BP gas station on the north end of the Chouteau bridge. The station closes at midnight I believe. The cameras point on the pumps and do not cover traffic on Chouteau Trafficway at all. I have also walked down the hill next to the bridge. It's not as steep as people make it out to be. There is a path that leads down the hill to the dead end of Birmingham road right below. From what I can gather, this path was made by homeless people that may reside under the bridge from time to time, and people that may want to fish under the bridge but don't want to park down at the dead end of Birmingham road in fears they might get ticketed for trespassing (railroad property). I have also driven down Birmingham road and under the Chouteau bridge and it's really simple to get out and walk to the water. You can also position your vehicle pointing towards the river with your headlights on to see at night. I have explored every inch of the road, all of the houses on the road, and the businesses. Getting back to the gas station, you can pull into the parking lot on the west side of the station, park, and not be seen on video. You could then walk out onto the walkway on the bridge. I also talked to someone on Birmingham road that stated the barricade at the end of the road isn't always up, and most recently in the last few months it was put in place mainly because of the traffic down there caused by the Lisa Irwin case. Nothing is impossible here. I have also explored the possibility of throwing cell phones out while traveling across the I-435 bridge as I stated I would try to do a few months back. Power windows, three corncobs and out the window they went. All went over with ease. Riverfront park (where the boat dock is) could be closed at night according to the signs, and they have a big yellow bar like most parks have that they could close at night but I am unsure if KC Parks & Rec stays on top of it and locks it up at night. You can see in one of the pictures posted in this topic where there is a boat ramp then the river. If you look to the right of Harrahs and look at the Chouteau bridge, just under it and to the right you can see the terrain isn't that difficult to get to the river from underneath it. Looking for more cameras, I drove into Harrah's casino from Chouteau Trafficway and there isn't a camera until you get in there about a 1/4 of a mile after going around a few curves and the first camera is at the parking garage. I will never rule out the river and all of the access points, especially after traveling to all of the areas and walking many of them.

I wanted to bump this post because I feel that it is an important one.

norest4thewicked
02-24-2012, 08:43 PM
One of them (of several they have) is situated where they can capture anybody leaving/entering their property. This same shot also captures anybody traveling down the road itself where it is situated.

So you have specifically talked to the business owner/owners and they have told you that every single vehicle that passes by their business on Birmingham is recorded?

In da Middle
02-24-2012, 08:47 PM
So you have specifically talked to the business owner/owners and they have told you that every single vehicle that passes by their business on Birmingham is recorded?
One particular owner, yes.

Dewey2Me1MoThyme
02-24-2012, 08:51 PM
One particular owner, yes.

Does the state of MO require you have front and rear tags, or rear only? TIA!

In da Middle
02-24-2012, 09:02 PM
Does the state of MO require you have front and rear tags, or rear only? TIA!
We are *supposed* to have both, but it doesn't seem to be enforced much. We are issued 2 when renewing. Kansas, just a very short distance away only requires rear.

norest4thewicked
02-24-2012, 09:03 PM
One particular owner, yes.

Respectfully, that business must make millions to be able to afford cameras that cover the entire area of their business landscape as well as the road in front of it, 24/7.

Dewey2Me1MoThyme
02-24-2012, 09:05 PM
Respectfully, that business must make millions to be able to afford cameras that cover the entire area of their business landscape as well as the road in front of it, 24/7.

If they are mtion activated, as many are, that saves a lot of room on a dvr.

In da Middle
02-24-2012, 09:08 PM
Respectfully, that business must make millions to be able to afford cameras that cover the entire area of their business landscape as well as the road in front of it, 24/7.
No, just smart people strategically placing a few cameras in prime locations. If you do it yourself, it doesn't cost much at all. They are camera geeks by nature also. They only need a few to do what they need them to do.

Dewey2Me1MoThyme
02-24-2012, 09:21 PM
No, just smart people strategically placing a few cameras in prime locations. If you do it yourself, it doesn't cost much at all. They are camera geeks by nature also. They only need a few to do what they need them to do.

I recently priced an eight camera (with night vision) motion detection system for my home and shop which comes with 4G DVR for under $400, I'm seriously considering it, and I am no millionaire. But I did stay at a Holiday Express once. :woohoo:

In da Middle
02-24-2012, 09:39 PM
I recently priced an eight camera (with night vision) motion detection system for my home and shop which comes with 4G DVR for under $400, I'm seriously considering it, and I am no millionaire. But I did stay at a Holiday Express once. :woohoo:
Yep, and I just was looking into a 2T (2 terabyte = 2,048 gig!) hard drives for a little more than $200. The cost to have cameras is miniscule compared to what thieves take, even in one trip.

norest4thewicked
02-24-2012, 09:41 PM
If they are mtion activated, as many are, that saves a lot of room on a dvr.

Wouldn't that mean that every time a car drove past, that they would be activated?

Dewey2Me1MoThyme
02-24-2012, 09:42 PM
Wouldn't that mean that every time a car drove past, that they would be activated?

Yes and once the car has passed, it would stop, much like motion sensor lights, and you can adjust the delay for several minutes, or just a few seconds, depending on your needs.

norest4thewicked
02-24-2012, 09:43 PM
No, just smart people strategically placing a few cameras in prime locations. If you do it yourself, it doesn't cost much at all. They are camera geeks by nature also. They only need a few to do what they need them to do.

Ok, but I still don't understand why someone would pay money to monitor a road. If I'm paying money for a camera system, no matter how small, I'm goiing to pay for it to record my property with my stuff on it.

norest4thewicked
02-24-2012, 09:47 PM
Your points state that you want to cover your property. This makes sense. For businesses to cover more than their perimeter, doesn't make sense to me. That's just me though.

Moving on to another forum...:)

Dewey2Me1MoThyme
02-24-2012, 09:47 PM
Ok, but I still don't understand why someone would pay money to monitor a road. If I'm paying money for a camera system, no matter how small, I'm goiing to pay for it to record my property with my stuff on it.

I would have mine pointed at where the driveway meets the street, the walkway meets the sidewalk as well as any other point of entry. But maybe that's just me, but the sooner I catch a perp on camera the longer they are in view. DVR caches can easily be deleted every day or every other day. Right now we have about 20 movies recorded on a small DVR and still have 52% disk space left over, just to give an indication as to how much footage one would hold.

DeAnn
02-24-2012, 10:11 PM
We are *supposed* to have both, but it doesn't seem to be enforced much. We are issued 2 when renewing. Kansas, just a very short distance away only requires rear.

For the record...I didn't know about the two plate rule when I first moved to Missouri. I thought the extra one was well an extra one in case something happened to the first (at the time I had heard a lot about tags being stolen).

I got a ticket one time for not having the front plate while parked outside the Kansas City School District.

So it is enforced. And so I have both front and back plates now :)

In da Middle
02-24-2012, 10:17 PM
For the record...I didn't know about the two plate rule when I first moved to Missouri. I thought the extra one was well an extra one in case something happened to the first (at the time I had heard a lot about tags being stolen).

I got a ticket one time for not having the front plate while parked outside the Kansas City School District.

So it is enforced. And so I have both front and back plates now :)
I got stopped one time in the little town of Windsor, Mo for not having a front plate. Funny thing is I had to get out and show her that there was, in fact, a front plate there! There it was, plain as day. Dunno why it seemed invisible to her. I thought at first somebody might have stolen it. I knew it was there not long before as I had just gotten new plates.

KsStormy
02-25-2012, 12:32 AM
There is just no realistic way to cover all aspects & areas of that river, and no way to know where ANYTHING may end up that finds its way into it. I just keep thinking about the person who stated that this case may take years to solve, if ever, & wonder. Maybe always will. Especially after I learned where/how the state trooper was found.

joyless
02-25-2012, 12:42 AM
Yes. Big river, small child. I've thought the river from the start. So sad. Same with the case of a "missing" baby in Maine...big river nearby.

KsStormy
02-26-2012, 03:07 AM
Yes. Big river, small child. I've thought the river from the start. So sad. Same with the case of a "missing" baby in Maine...big river nearby.

When I took a drive up there & realized just HOW close the Mo River is to the house (less than a 3 min drive, & I was driving SLOW, looking around, telling my big ol' dog to Lay down & be quiet,etc) ,well that's when I started thinking that no OTHER place would make as much sense, as far as for convenience & ease of disposal, IF need be... but still heartbreaking.

matou
02-27-2012, 07:40 PM
LE need to drop a weighted garbage bag into the river from a few locations and see where it goes. I also think Lisa is in the water. This method was used this summer to help locate Breeann Rodriguez.

Rydia
02-27-2012, 09:46 PM
When I first heard about Lisa, I didn't even think about the river. I'm not sure why. I go down to the city a lot, and every time I go across the Bond Bridge (I'm still wanting to call it the Paseo Bridge!) It doesn't matter who I'm riding with, somebody will ALWAYS say, "I wonder how many bodies are in that river?"

So sad to think about. If Lisa was thrown in the river, do you think she'd ever be found? Would she be lost forever, or at least until somebody just happens to see something floating along?

Oh and the two plate law? They definitely enforce it! A few years ago I was driving with the front plate on my dashboard because I hadn't gotten around to buying new screws (I was like 18 and even worse about procrastination lol). Yea, I got a ticket. Lesson learned!

highflyer
02-28-2012, 01:21 AM
When I first heard about Lisa, I didn't even think about the river. I'm not sure why. I go down to the city a lot, and every time I go across the Bond Bridge (I'm still wanting to call it the Paseo Bridge!) It doesn't matter who I'm riding with, somebody will ALWAYS say, "I wonder how many bodies are in that river?"

So sad to think about. If Lisa was thrown in the river, do you think she'd ever be found? Would she be lost forever, or at least until somebody just happens to see something floating along?

Oh and the two plate law? They definitely enforce it! A few years ago I was driving with the front plate on my dashboard because I hadn't gotten around to buying new screws (I was like 18 and even worse about procrastination lol). Yea, I got a ticket. Lesson learned!
:waitasec: I've never been in a car when someone said that and I am past middle age.

iamnotagolem
02-28-2012, 01:31 AM
I say that about Nevada every time we drive through. It's a desolate wasteland. I'm sure there are thousands of bodies all over Nevada.

askfornina
02-29-2012, 09:57 PM
I think the fact that the fire department was doing drills is relevant. I don't know how relevant, a lot of it I think would depend on when she actually was placed in the river, when they started doing drills and how far down the river they (the FD) were. When Nat had originally posted that response from KCPD, my first reaction (which of course may be wrong) was that KCPD was going off an assumption that it is somewhat possible that the FD would had saw something, even with the current the morning of the 4th if BL was placed in the river.

Using this post from the first page as a jumping off point to post this for anyone who is interested.

From Oct.4th:


The Kansas City Fire Department was training on the river Tuesday and was alerted by about the missing infant. Fire crews searched the river from Choteau Bridge and down river at least two miles.

http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/local_news/amber-alert-issued-for-missing-10-month-old-girl-in-kcmo#ixzz1kBBWjHov

norest4thewicked
02-29-2012, 10:18 PM
Using this post from the first page as a jumping off point to post this for anyone who is interested.

From Oct.4th:


http://www.nbcactionnews.com/dpp/news/local_news/amber-alert-issued-for-missing-10-month-old-girl-in-kcmo#ixzz1kBBWjHov

But, if Lisa was put in the river the night before, she would most likely be well past the point where the FD was doing their drills that morning, I would think.

iamnotagolem
02-29-2012, 10:26 PM
But, if Lisa was put in the river the night before, she would most likely be well past the point where the FD was doing their drills that morning, I would think.

I agree, and we don't even know where she was put in or if it was the Missouri river.

norest4thewicked
02-29-2012, 11:16 PM
I agree, and we don't even know where she was put in or if it was the Missouri river.

Correct. I think that water is the key though...

redheadedgal
03-01-2012, 12:59 AM
But, if Lisa was put in the river the night before, she would most likely be well past the point where the FD was doing their drills that morning, I would think.

not sure how accurate this response is (it does seem to come from a gov't site @ blm.gov; the link is broken however) but 2-3 miles/hr in the summer/fall is the given speed so yes, way past...


http://www.experts123.com/q/how-fast-does-the-missouri-river-flow.html

KsStormy
03-01-2012, 10:03 PM
not sure how accurate this response is (it does seem to come from a gov't site @ blm.gov; the link is broken however) but 2-3 miles/hr in the summer/fall is the given speed so yes, way past...


http://www.experts123.com/q/how-fast-does-the-missouri-river-flow.html

Sure was moving fast on Oct. 13 when I was in KC... if you look at how that river meanders across MO on a map... oh my. I am thinking it's pretty hopeless, if it was the river. I have wanted to somehow get the word out down river to people living ,fishing,boating from KC to St. Louis to keep an eye out. As dry as we have been all winter, water levels have to be dropping.

krimekat
03-01-2012, 10:13 PM
PP is not in any river or stream -- they would have found her IMHO UNLESS thrown in the MO River. All other waterways that flow to the MO River didn't have enough water to carry her to MO River in Oct/Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb -- maybe she's still stuck under the I435 bridge?

Naw . . . missing

DeAnn
03-05-2012, 12:10 AM
Drove over the I-435 bridge over Missouri River late last night.

I can see someone tossing cell phones out the window into the river while traveling along at highway speeds but don't see it being possible to toss a baby's body especially if weighted down.

norest4thewicked
03-05-2012, 12:29 AM
Drove over the I-435 bridge over Missouri River late last night.

I can see someone tossing cell phones out the window into the river while traveling along at highway speeds but don't see it being possible to toss a baby's body especially if weighted down.

But, why couldn't someone stop their car, get out, and throw the bucket or whatever container over the side? If it was done after dark, traffic would be minimal and a person could position themselves on the bridge to be able to see headlights coming. I would think that this could be done as quickly as 15 seconds if someone rushed.

KsStormy
06-24-2012, 01:37 AM
From the Irwin house to the quickest, easiest access point to the Mighty Mo, is less than a 2 minute drive. I have driven it myself, several times. I know it's been posted in this thread before, & elsewhere on this forum, but I think it is important to post again: Here is a video, than will give you an idea of the area:

Lisa Irwin neighborhood - YouTube

RANCH
06-24-2012, 01:47 AM
From the Irwin house to the quickest, easiest access point to the Mighty Mo, is less than a 2 minute drive. I have driven it myself, several times. I know it's been posted in this thread before, & elsewhere on this forum, but I think it is important to post again: Here is a video, than will give you an idea of the area:

Lisa Irwin neighborhood - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJVTrODkCW0)

How long do you think it would take if you had to walk the same route?

And if you were carrying a child the size of Lisa, would it be noticeable to people nearby the route you were walking?

KsStormy
06-24-2012, 02:00 AM
How long do you think it would take if you had to walk the same route?

And if you were carrying a child the size of Lisa, would it be noticeable to people nearby the route you were walking?

I haven't personally walked the route, but have spoken to 2 locals who have. One older gentleman said it took him about 10-15 minutes, I believe... it is all downhill from the house to the river. Another lady that grew up in the area & used to swim in the river as a child said there is a well-worn path from where the video shows the car pulling up by the old grain elevator down to the river... very easy access to the river.
As far as being seen? I understand there is also a storm drain that runs from behind the Irwin home, directly down to the river... locals that were doing searches of the area have taken many pictures. The whole area is HEAVILY wooded, as can be seen by the video. IMHO it would not be a difficult trip to & from the river either walking or by vehicle, by any means.

RANCH
06-24-2012, 02:11 AM
I haven't personally walked the route, but have spoken to 2 locals who have. One older gentleman said it took him about 10-15 minutes, I believe... it is all downhill from the house to the river. Another lady that grew up in the area & used to swim in the river as a child said there is a well-worn path from where the video shows the car pulling up by the old grain elevator down to the river... very easy access to the river.
As far as being seen? I understand there is also a storm drain that runs from behind the Irwin home, directly down to the river... locals that were doing searches of the area have taken many pictures. The whole area is HEAVILY wooded, as can be seen by the video. IMHO it would not be a difficult trip to & from the river either walking or by vehicle, by any means.

BBM
Do you know how much of a grade it is down to the river?

KsStormy
06-24-2012, 02:18 AM
BBM
Do you know how much of a grade it is down to the river?

Grade? No clue...but was all downhill when I drove it,as you can see from the video...?

RANCH
06-24-2012, 02:28 AM
Grade? No clue...but was all downhill when I drove it,as you can see from the video...?

Next time take a GPS and take elevation readings. Every 100 to 200 yards should due. Grade is important when walking downhill and more importantly uphill.

SyraKelly
06-24-2012, 02:12 PM
Next time take a GPS and take elevation readings. Every 100 to 200 yards should due. Grade is important when walking downhill and more importantly uphill.

HUH!!:waitasec:

norest4thewicked
06-24-2012, 08:04 PM
Next time take a GPS and take elevation readings. Every 100 to 200 yards should due. Grade is important when walking downhill and more importantly uphill.

I don't see grade as being all that important when a person has a dead child in their hands and is trying to dispose of said child in the quickest way. As a matter of fact, I think that shock and panic might take over and a lot of variables (such as grade) would be thrown out in these circumstances.

iamnotagolem
06-26-2012, 12:41 PM
I don't think the elevation change is important. We are not dealing with a mountainous region, it's Missouri. There is only a 1500 ft in elevation difference in the entire state, the highest point is 1772 ft and lowest is 230 ft. That area ranges from 230-500ft, not a significant elevation change.

DB & JI both should be used to carrying/holding Lisa, she weighed 15-20 lbs, either one of them carrying her for a mile shouldn't be a difficult task. It's relatively flat terrain, they weren't scaling mountains, sliding down cliffs, or some other seemingly impossible task.

If there wasn't a cadaver hit in the house, I'd even suggest they had Lisa walk most of the way. Remember if indeed they did carry a dead Lisa to the river, the journey home was w/o that extra 15-20 lbs.

KsStormy
06-26-2012, 12:49 PM
Factor in adrenaline, makes things much easier, IMHO.

RANCH
06-26-2012, 12:53 PM
Looks like the consensus is that it's an easy walk to and from the river. The next question is, why didn't anyone see Lisa being taken to the river? Did the perpetrator just get lucky? Or is it because the area is conducive to being undetected while walking at night?

iamnotagolem
06-26-2012, 12:57 PM
Looks like the consensus is that it's an easy walk to and from the river. The next question is, why didn't anyone see Lisa being taken to the river? Did the perpetrator just get lucky? Or is it because the area is conducive to being undetected while walking at night?

I've wondered that, too. I guess it depends on what time she was taken to the river. I realize this is no new case, but it still kills me thinking about her being put in the river.

Moving on, if you look at google maps it looks like there is a wooded area that would have provided them with some cover to go to the river at night, if they went that way instead of following the roads.

My other thought is, if they disposed of Lisa on Sunday night. They could have done so with a much easier time frame, not needing to secure an entire night of alibi.

RANCH
06-26-2012, 01:12 PM
I've wondered that, too. I guess it depends on what time she was taken to the river. I realize this is no new case, but it still kills me thinking about her being put in the river.

Moving on, if you look at google maps it looks like there is a wooded area that would have provided them with some cover to go to the river at night, if they went that way instead of following the roads.

My other thought is, if they disposed of Lisa on Sunday night. They could have done so with a much easier time frame, not needing to secure an entire night of alibi.
BBM
I guess that something happening to Lisa on Sunday is possible, but I have a hard time believing it myself. It means that several people would have to be in on a conspiracy to cover it up. Then you have to answer why they would be part of the conspiracy and how they could all prevent LE from uncovering it. Just doesn't seem too likely to me. JMO.

KsStormy
06-26-2012, 01:16 PM
BBM
I guess that something happening to Lisa on Sunday is possible, but I have a hard time believing it myself. It means that several people would have to be in on a conspiracy to cover it up. Then you have to answer why they would be part of the conspiracy and how they could all prevent LE from uncovering it. Just doesn't seem too likely to me. JMO.

Why would that mean that others were covering up? Who? As far as I have read, the last time others outside the immediate family saw her, it was Sunday during the day. Who knows what happened the night after the alleged birthday party?

RANCH
06-26-2012, 01:26 PM
Why would that mean that others were covering up? Who? As far as I have read, the last time others outside the immediate family saw her, it was Sunday during the day. Who knows what happened the night after the alleged birthday party?

SB, her daughter and the two boys.

KsStormy
06-26-2012, 01:31 PM
SB, her daughter and the two boys.

SB's account hasn't been released, her daughter was only 4, & is not credible, & we also haven't heard what the 2 boys told LE. The long delay in allowing them to be re-interviewed allowed for coaching.
MOO
:moo:

RANCH
06-26-2012, 01:57 PM
SB's account hasn't been released, her daughter was only 4, & is not credible, & we also haven't heard what the 2 boys told LE. The long delay in allowing them to be re-interviewed allowed for coaching.
MOO
:moo:

I have no way of proving it but I believe that SB was inside the house on Monday and saw Lisa. As for the minor children, they all must have been coached very well in order to cover up Lisa's disappearance on Sunday. I'm not trying to convince anyone who believes that something happened to Lisa on Sunday, I'm just saying that I don't feel it's very likely.


A source familiar with the case earlier this week told KCTV5 that Brando and her 4-year-old daughter were inside baby Lisa's home about 4:30 p.m. Oct. 3. Bradley told People magazine that she cooked dinner for her family, Brando and her daughter, which they shared about 5:30 p.m.

http://www.kctv5.com/story/15953146/neighbor-says

KsStormy
06-26-2012, 02:06 PM
I have no way of proving it but I believe that SB was inside the house on Monday and saw Lisa. As for the minor children, they all must have been coached very well in order to cover up Lisa's disappearance on Sunday. I'm not trying to convince anyone who believes that something happened to Lisa on Sunday, I'm just saying that I don't feel it's very likely.



http://www.kctv5.com/story/15953146/neighbor-says

I don't recall SB ever saying she SAW Lisa. If she did, that hasn't been released, to my knowledge...? As for the boys, if indeed something happened to Lisa in the home either Sunday or Monday, who's to say they were witnesses? They very well could have been in their room playing, out in the yard, down in the basement/party room... and could have been told "Lisa's asleep, she has a cold & isn't feeling good". Children that age would just say OK & run along on their merry way. If mom & dad say "stay out of Lisa's room, she's sick & needs her sleep", wouldn't they do just that?
MOO
:moo:

RANCH
06-26-2012, 02:22 PM
I don't recall SB ever saying she SAW Lisa. If she did, that hasn't been released, to my knowledge...? As for the boys, if indeed something happened to Lisa in the home either Sunday or Monday, who's to say they were witnesses? They very well could have been in their room playing, out in the yard, down in the basement/party room... and could have been told "Lisa's asleep, she has a cold & isn't feeling good". Children that age would just say OK & run along on their merry way. If mom & dad say "stay out of Lisa's room, she's sick & needs her sleep", wouldn't they do just that?
MOO
:moo:

Your right, we don't know what SB has said about anything. But we do know that she was over to the house that day. In my opinion it would be pretty risky to have her over if Debbie was going to stage a kidnapping later that night and Lisa was already gone. A more believable scenario would have Debbie telling SB that she didn't feel well or was tired and could they visit later.

As for the boys, you could be right. But we don't know what they told LE either. And if they did say that they hadn't seen Lisa since Sunday, very bad for DB/JI. Then were back to what SB saw on Monday. Again we don't know for sure. JMO.

iamnotagolem
06-26-2012, 02:34 PM
The reason I believe a Sunday disposal is possible is due to the lack of witnesses that have come forward claiming to see Lisa on Sunday after the party. No one saw Lisa out in the yard playing on Monday? SB didn't question why Lisa was in bed from 6:40-forever? Supposedly DB made a chicken dinner at 5:40 during the 2 hour period in which Lisa was supposed to be awaken but no mention of Lisa at dinner.

It's possible LE has solid confirmation of Lisa's presence on Monday, but we aren't privy to that information.

iamnotagolem
06-26-2012, 02:41 PM
I know this isn't really on topic, but I keep going back and forth on whether or not she is dead.

The parents are the reason for both of my thoughts.

If Lisa is dead it explains why the parents aren't trying to find her.

If Lisa was kidnapped, Lisa's not being found is due to a lack of effort. Misinformation, lies, and lack of cooperation with LE.

In all honesty if Lisa was kidnapped it's no surprise that they have gotten away with it this long. No one is looking for her, even her description was inaccurate or not well described.

norest4thewicked
06-26-2012, 03:07 PM
If my memory serves me correctly, the story about SB and her daughter having "seen" Lisa on Monday was a story that the DT had leaked so that there would be a witness to Lisa after Sunday night. We have never heard this anywhere else. But, even if SB said she "saw" Lisa that afternoon, it could have easily been while Lisa was supposedly sleeping and SB just saw blankets in her bed. The 4 year old is completely unreliable regarding time, etc. She would have a hard time telling one day from another. And, regarding the boys, as iamnotagolem said, many variables plus the fact that they were in school part of the day. Very easy for them not to see Lisa for one day. This is one of the reasons that I strongly believe that Lisa died a day earlier and the entire day on Monday was a set up for the big kidnapping story. This makes sense to me.

RANCH
06-28-2012, 12:23 AM
I don't see grade as being all that important when a person has a dead child in their hands and is trying to dispose of said child in the quickest way. As a matter of fact, I think that shock and panic might take over and a lot of variables (such as grade) would be thrown out in these circumstances.

I was asking about the grade to the river to try and understand if a person of less than average physical conditioning would be able to walk the route easily.

Obviously going down hill is easier than going uphill. If the grade is severe, it would be a difficult walk back to the house. If it's a moderate grade, it would still be difficult and perhaps time consuming to a person with less than optimum physical conditioning.

That's why I'm asking about the grade to the river from DB/JI's house.

KsStormy
06-28-2012, 10:09 AM
She seemed to have no trouble walking in the wine run video...

4Jacy
06-28-2012, 02:52 PM
She seemed to have no trouble walking in the wine run video...

stop it! you have me LMAO :floorlaugh: That was a really good one!!

KsStormy
06-30-2012, 03:52 AM
Hee hee ...well ,it's true. Being overweight isn't a likely alibi for not being able to walk to the river. I personally think she drove, as she has been reported to be an old pro at sneaking out at night, according to her Mother-in-law, Hazel Bradley :


Debbie talked of getting her G.E.D. and insisted that her youngest brother, Phillip, graduate. But she didn't go back to school. Instead, she started leaving the house at night, taking Hazel's truck without asking when the family slept.

"I never knew for sure where she went or what she did," Hazel said. They had words. Debbie was again asked to leave.

"It's just immature things," she says. "I kept thinking she would settle down."
http://www.standard.net/stories/2011/11/09/mother-hen-media-villain-life-missing-babys-mom

norest4thewicked
06-30-2012, 12:13 PM
I was asking about the grade to the river to try and understand if a person of less than average physical conditioning would be able to walk the route easily.

Obviously going down hill is easier than going uphill. If the grade is severe, it would be a difficult walk back to the house. If it's a moderate grade, it would still be difficult and perhaps time consuming to a person with less than optimum physical conditioning.

That's why I'm asking about the grade to the river from DB/JI's house.

How is she less than physically fit? She's a slightly overweight woman in her 20's! I just don't get when people state things that makes it sound like she is in a wheel chair or something. She's a young woman. Sure, she smokes and has some extra weight on her, but that in no way would impede her from covering her a$$ if she were in a panic to get rid of a tiny body that she is used to carrying around anyway. I just don't get this line of thinking.

norest4thewicked
06-30-2012, 12:15 PM
She seemed to have no trouble walking in the wine run video...

True! And, we have seen her on videos and she seemed to have no trouble walking. I just don't get it!:banghead:

redheadedgal
06-30-2012, 12:59 PM
How is she less than physically fit? She's a slightly overweight woman in her 20's! I just don't get when people state things that makes it sound like she is in a wheel chair or something. She's a young woman. Sure, she smokes and has some extra weight on her, but that in no way would impede her from covering her a$$ if she were in a panic to get rid of a tiny body that she is used to carrying around anyway. I just don't get this line of thinking.


True! And, we have seen her on videos and she seemed to have no trouble walking. I just don't get it!:banghead:


exactly! and as more proof: ever watch "the biggest loser"? contestants are much larger than DB and they are able to do those intense workouts and challenges day after day...

RANCH
07-01-2012, 09:34 AM
How is she less than physically fit? She's a slightly overweight woman in her 20's! I just don't get when people state things that makes it sound like she is in a wheel chair or something. She's a young woman. Sure, she smokes and has some extra weight on her, but that in no way would impede her from covering her a$$ if she were in a panic to get rid of a tiny body that she is used to carrying around anyway. I just don't get this line of thinking.

BBM
My post mentions a person who is in less than optimum psychical condition. An overweight smoker fits that description to me. I didn't say anything about wheelchairs or the person having any psychical disabilities.

norest4thewicked
07-01-2012, 01:44 PM
BBM
My post mentions a person who is in less than optimum psychical condition. An overweight smoker fits that description to me. I didn't say anything about wheelchairs or the person having any psychical disabilities.

And...I didn't say that you did say that. I said "people". You are definitely not the first poster who has questioned whether DB could make it to the river or not.