View Full Version : Opening Statements 03/05/2012 in MRT's Trial
Salem
03-04-2012, 12:20 PM
Opening statements are to begin Monday morning.
Please post your comments here.
Please be mindful of TOS and all rules. There will be ZERO TOLERANCE for snarky or disrespectful posts and/or subtle digs at other members. Mods will not be pm'ing you, you will just find that you can no longer post.
There is to be NO name calling or name variations, not even of the accused, and NO BICKERING between member.
A difference of opinion is NOT a TOS violation. Some will think he is guilty, some will think he is not guilty and some will be on the fence. All of that is okay and should NOT BE ATTACKED. If you disagree, that's fine, move past the post. If a post offends you, alert it and let the Mods look at it. Remember if you respond, it is on YOU and you will suffer any consequences.
If you have any questions - please pm a Mod and we will be happy to assist you. The main Mods for this trial will be Nursebeeme, Fran, Ynot, Imamaze and myself. BUT you may always pm any mod you are comfortable with.
Thank you,
Salem
ETA: The thread will open Monday morning.
nursebeeme
03-04-2012, 03:11 PM
trial media and tweet thread (5 March 2012): **no discussion** - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community this is a thread for any live updates or tweets from the courtroom. It is a **no discussion** thread to be able to keep the trial information organized.
nursebeeme
03-05-2012, 07:56 AM
trial media and tweet thread (5 March 2012): **no discussion** - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
(here is the link to the twitter/media update no discussion thread... it is open and I have already posted some live updates from reporters waiting to get inside the courthouse)
please read and thank the rules... there will be zero tolerance for tos violations.
Talina
03-05-2012, 08:26 AM
This is going to be an even longer trial (seems like it) since we can't view it live as it happens and have to rely on tweet updates and reporters filling us in when they can.
I'm sure I am among a huge crowd that just really doesn't like to rely on reporters to decide for us what is relevant info to pass on to us that is court room testimony and evidence.
Kittymama
03-05-2012, 08:35 AM
I'm looking for the continuation of the discussion thread (from thread #29). Am I in the right place? TIA!
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 08:35 AM
I wish it would be live streamed. :sigh:
nursebeeme
03-05-2012, 08:38 AM
I'm looking for the continuation of the discussion thread (from thread #29). Am I in the right place? TIA!
You are in the right place :-)
We will have a new discussion thread for each day of the trial
matou
03-05-2012, 08:42 AM
Randy Richmond has been there since 3 am to ensure his spot.
Randy Richmond @RandyRatLFPress
First media at court for Rafferty trial at 545 am.
https://twitter.com/#!/RandyRatLFPress
matou
03-05-2012, 08:47 AM
AM980.ca @AM980_Court
The Tori Stafford murder trial begins at 10 a.m. today when the Crown delivers its opening statement to the jury bit.ly/x8I4jh
matou
03-05-2012, 08:55 AM
Here is a good link to tweets in the case from the London Free Press: https://twitter.com/#!/raffertylfp
Info will be graphic warns LFP.
Kittymama
03-05-2012, 08:56 AM
What time is it in ON right now? 9? So the trial starts in an hour?
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 08:59 AM
What time is it in ON right now? 9?
Yes. One more hour to go
Sailor Bug
03-05-2012, 09:01 AM
The father of Tara McDonald, Tori Stafford's grandfather is one of the family members waiting for the overflow room to open
http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/05/19459541.html
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 09:04 AM
The father of Tara McDonald, Tori Stafford's grandfather is one of the family members waiting for the overflow room to open
http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/05/19459541.html
Do family members get assigned seats?
Sailor Bug
03-05-2012, 09:07 AM
Do family members get assigned seats?
They should have reserved seats from PA and not have to go to an overflow room, unless by choice. My gosh this is his Grandchild.
matou
03-05-2012, 09:19 AM
About 15 reporters waiting to get into the overflow room on 6th floor for Rafferty trial CBC has most between French English networks
https://twitter.com/#!/raffertylfp
matou
03-05-2012, 09:32 AM
Tori Stafford's father Rodney and other relative wearing purple ribbons with "Tori" embroidered on it #sl #Rafferty
by cbcsteve via twitter 9:32 AM
nursebeeme
03-05-2012, 09:57 AM
so according to the tweets I am reading (iirc) the trial is on the 14th floor and the satellite courtroom is on the 6th? This is a good move (re: reporters cannot just walk into the next room to tweet/etc) and a good security move imhoo
nursebeeme
03-05-2012, 10:02 AM
thought: does anyone think they will have monitors in the satellite courtroom for reporters to watch the trial while updating?
(haven't heard much on the setup)
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 10:10 AM
RaffertyLFP: Trial called to order Justice Heeney calls for exclusion of witnesses [via Twitter]
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 10:11 AM
RaffertyLFP: Rafferty is in prisoner's box neatly dressed in grey suit, close-cropped hair [via Twitter]
Salem
03-05-2012, 10:14 AM
thought: does anyone think they will have monitors in the satellite courtroom for reporters to watch the trial while updating?
(haven't heard much on the setup)
One of the tweets in the tweet thread said they have 3 cameras that will show the entire courtroom, MR and any evidence presented.
Salem
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 10:14 AM
RaffertyLFP: Clerk reads the charges against Rafferty 1st degree murder kidnapping sexual assault [via Twitter]
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 10:16 AM
RaffertyLFP: Trial called to order Justice Heeney calls for exclusion of witnesses [via Twitter]
Quoting myself. I wonder if any family members will be testifying? Does this mean they can't be in the courtroom?
Kamille
03-05-2012, 10:32 AM
Quoting myself. I wonder if any family members will be testifying? Does this mean they can't be in the courtroom?
I guess we're not really going to have much to discuss until the end of the day when the reporters start filing their stories. Right now it looks like just standard jury instructions.
MOO
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 10:41 AM
I guess we're not really going to have much to discuss until the end of the day when the reporters start filing their stories. Right now it looks like just standard jury instructions.
MOO
Can't wait to see who the first witness will be.
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 10:44 AM
RaffertyLFP: Heeney explains the concept of "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" asks them to appoint a foreman. [via Twitter]
nursebeeme
03-05-2012, 10:48 AM
I guess we're not really going to have much to discuss until the end of the day when the reporters start filing their stories. Right now it looks like just standard jury instructions.
MOO
we will get tweets during the opening statements so I think there will be a lot to discuss today! (moo) and the media will be tweeting live from the satellite courtroom as it unfolds
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/03/05/tori-stafford-trial-begins.html
Wondergirl
03-05-2012, 10:53 AM
Thanks to everyone who is updating.
nursebeeme
03-05-2012, 10:55 AM
I second that! Thanks to everyone posting all the tweets, etc...
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 10:56 AM
RaffertyLFP: Heeney finishes opening address to jury - morning recess begins earlier than usual [via Twitter]
====
I'm guessing OS right after the break.
nursebeeme
03-05-2012, 11:01 AM
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/03/05/tori-stafford-trial-begins.html
20 minute break
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 11:14 AM
RaffertyLFP: Jurors will not be sequestered until they retire to consider their verdict. They 're not allowed to talk about their deliberations [via Twitter]
nettie_82
03-05-2012, 11:16 AM
Has anyone seen anything is TM in attendance today? I can certainly understand how stressful this will be for the family, however, IMO it is necessary for closure. One of those things where if you miss it, you can't go back and redo. (Nor would you want to) kwim??
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 11:16 AM
RaffertyLFP: Rafferty back in court, trial should resume soon [via Twitter]
Kamille
03-05-2012, 11:17 AM
Yikes...it's been over 20 minutes. I hope we don't have those 20 minute smoke breaks that stretch out to over an hour like they did in the Caylee trial. LOL
Kamille
03-05-2012, 11:19 AM
Has anyone seen anything is TM in attendance today? I can certainly understand how stressful this will be for the family, however, IMO it is necessary for closure. One of those things where if you miss it, you can't go back and redo. (Nor would you want to) kwim??
AM980 tweeted that Tara and Rodney are both there.
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 11:20 AM
Has anyone seen anything is TM in attendance today? I can certainly understand how stressful this will be for the family, however, IMO it is necessary for closure. One of those things where if you miss it, you can't go back and redo. (Nor would you want to) kwim??
I haven't seen anything yet about the parents except for Tori's grandpa. He was waiting in line with the rest of the crowd. :(
I'm following one tweeter so could've missed it.
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 11:20 AM
RaffertyLFP: Overflow room starting to fill up with non-media folk [via Twitter]
Kamille
03-05-2012, 11:21 AM
AM980 just tweeted it 2 minutes ago
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 11:22 AM
RaffertyLFP: Opening address by Crown attorney Kevin Gowdey should last over an hour, will give broad overview of the prosecution's case [via Twitter]
nursebeeme
03-05-2012, 11:29 AM
everyone just asked to leave courtroom.. not sure what is going on...http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/03/05/tori-stafford-trial-begins.html
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 11:29 AM
everyone just asked to leave courtroom.. not sure what is going on...http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/03/05/tori-stafford-trial-begins.html
:what:
Sparklin
03-05-2012, 11:30 AM
AM680: The courtroom has been cleared, both on the 14th floor and the 6th floor. No word on why or when the trial will resume.
nursebeeme
03-05-2012, 11:30 AM
oh my! what is going on??
Sparklin
03-05-2012, 11:32 AM
MarkCarc1010 :
Courtroom ordered cleared at #Rafferty trial as lawyers remain huddled inside. Not sure what's going on.
Sparklin
03-05-2012, 11:34 AM
AM980: Both parents (Tara McDonald & Rodney Stafford) are at the courthouse today.
Plea deal?
I was waiting with prospective juries for two different trials while all lawyers and judge inside. They stepped out for each after awhile and said a plea has been made, no trial.
Course, this was in the U.S., so don't know.
fran
nursebeeme
03-05-2012, 11:36 AM
surly this is not how they are going to do sidebars!
Sparklin
03-05-2012, 11:37 AM
Francis D'Souza @cityfrancis:
Tori's mom not allowed into #Rafferty trial right now because she's a witness. But she IS here at courthouse
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 11:38 AM
Plea deal?
I was waiting with prospective juries for two different trials while all lawyers and judge inside. They stepped out for each after awhile and said a plea has been made, no trial.
Course, this was in the U.S., so don't know.
fran
Perhaps. But why wait for everyone to enter the court room and then lead them out. The Prosecution was about to start their OS.
This is so bizarre.
Sparklin
03-05-2012, 11:38 AM
surly this is not how they are going to do sidebars!
That would be terrible! I'm wondering plea deal also!
Kamille
03-05-2012, 11:38 AM
They'd better not plea deal with this guy...and I don't think they would even consider it. They know better after the Homolka debacle.
Now if he decides the heat is too much in that courtroom and wants to just go ahead and plead guilty I'd be okay with that.
Maybe it's all becoming "real" for him and he can't handle it?
MOO
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 11:39 AM
Francis D'Souza @cityfrancis:
Tori's mom not allowed into #Rafferty trial right now because she's a witness. But she IS here at courthouse
Oh geez....hope that's not the reason they cleared the court room!! She is the victim's mom! :maddening:
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 11:40 AM
RaffertyLFP: Tori Stafford's father Rodney is expected to speak to media at 1 pm outside court. [via Twitter]
nursebeeme
03-05-2012, 11:40 AM
Jury was not in courtroom when judge asked everyone to leave. #sl #rafferty #toristafford
by nagyCBC via twitter 11:38 AM
Both main and overflow courtrooms have been cleared. No reason given. #Rafferty #sl
by cbcsteve via twitter 11:38 AMhttp://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/03/05/tori-stafford-trial-begins.html
Sparklin
03-05-2012, 11:40 AM
London Free Press: Tori Stafford's father Rodney is expected to speak to media at 1 pm outside court.
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 11:41 AM
RaffertyLFP: There is speculation courts have been cleared for securituy sweep but we don't know and may never know . [via Twitter]
nursebeeme
03-05-2012, 11:57 AM
Still outside the courtroom.Judge has not let anyone back in #sl #rafferty #toristafford
by nagyCBC via twitter 11:54 AMhttp://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/03/05/tori-stafford-trial-begins.html
if it were something like a bomb scare, etc etc etc or a security sweep you would think the whole building would be evacuated.
Sparklin
03-05-2012, 12:00 PM
(Global news reporting) @lzilkeglobal: #Rafferty wore a faint smile entering court. Stafford family wearing purple - Tori's favourite ow.ly/9svB7
That bothers me on so many levels -- how disrespectful!
Sparklin
03-05-2012, 12:00 PM
Still outside the courtroom.Judge has not let anyone back in #sl #rafferty #toristafford
by nagyCBC via twitter 11:54 AMhttp://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/03/05/tori-stafford-trial-begins.html
if it were something like a bomb scare, etc etc etc or a security sweep you would think the whole building would be evacuated.
Agreed ~ that wouldn't make sense.
Kamille
03-05-2012, 12:01 PM
Still outside the courtroom.Judge has not let anyone back in #sl #rafferty #toristafford
by nagyCBC via twitter 11:54 AMhttp://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/03/05/tori-stafford-trial-begins.html
if it were something like a bomb scare, etc etc etc or a security sweep you would think the whole building would be evacuated.
I wonder where the lawyers and judge are? In chambers? Still not a reason to clear the courtroom though IMO. :waitasec:
nobodyzgirl
03-05-2012, 12:04 PM
Media waiting speculating on cause for delay in #Rafferty trial. Some theories, issues with Judge's instructions or crown's opening.
http://live.citynews.ca/Event/Francis_DSouza_and_Cynthia_Mulligan_are_live_in_Lo ndon_Ont
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 12:05 PM
RaffertyLFP: The Free Press has heard clearing of courtrooms NOT due to security sweep - some other reason. [via Twitter]
Salem
03-05-2012, 12:06 PM
If it was a security issue, the first person out in the US would be the judge. The baliff would make sure of that - it is their job.
I think legal manuvering here - and I am hoping that if MR is guilty, he has decided to cop to it and a trial won't be necessary.
Salem
matou
03-05-2012, 12:06 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Reply
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The Free Press has heard clearing of courtrooms NOT due to security sweep - some other reason.
Sparklin
03-05-2012, 12:06 PM
lzilkeglobal @lzilkeglobal
Questions about why the delay in the #Rafferty trial? OPP officers blocking the windows and doors to courtroom.
HOWEVER:
CTV London @CTVLondon
Half an hour has passed and still explanation for clearing the courtrooms. No increased security visible.
Sparklin
03-05-2012, 12:06 PM
I wonder where the lawyers and judge are? In chambers? Still not a reason to clear the courtroom though IMO. :waitasec:
They said they were still in the courtroom -- not the jury though
Kamille
03-05-2012, 12:12 PM
Well if this delay is due to some wrangling or protesting by the defence team already then this might be their way of protesting that this went straight to trial without a preliminary hearing. We might be in for a long haul here. :banghead:
MOO
Kittymama
03-05-2012, 12:12 PM
I'm told that in the US, they would only clear the courtroom if the defendant was speaking, there were security issues, or there was a child witness (but all parties would have to agree, and apparently it's really rare).
matou
03-05-2012, 12:20 PM
Trial expected to resume sometime after 1:30 pm.
https://twitter.com/#!/CityCynthia
nursebeeme
03-05-2012, 12:20 PM
lzilkeglobal @lzilkeglobal
Questions about why the delay in the #Rafferty trial? OPP officers blocking the windows and doors to courtroom.
HOWEVER:
CTV London @CTVLondon
Half an hour has passed and still explanation for clearing the courtrooms. No increased security visible.
this is just all and out strange
:escape:
Sparklin
03-05-2012, 12:21 PM
Francis D'Souza @cityfrancis
BREAKING judge will hold in camera hearing at 1:30 in #Rafferty trial. We don't know issue. Then open court
nursebeeme
03-05-2012, 12:22 PM
Rafferty trial adjourned until 1330. Then judge will convene in camera hearing.
by cbcpls via twitter 12:19 PMhttp://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/03/05/tori-stafford-trial-begins.html
nobodyzgirl
03-05-2012, 12:22 PM
BREAKING judge will hold in camera hearing at 1:30 in #Rafferty trial. We don't know issue. Then open court
by cityfrancis via twitter 12:20 PM
Permalink
#Rafferty - judge will reconvene an in camera hearing at 1:30, then trial expected to resume.
by citycynthia via twitter 12:19 PM
http://live.citynews.ca/Event/Francis_DSouza_and_Cynthia_Mulligan_are_live_in_Lo ndon_Ont
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 12:24 PM
RaffertyLFP: Trial has been shut down until 130 when an in camera hearing will begin. [via Twitter]
:what:
Kittymama
03-05-2012, 12:24 PM
What does an "in camera hearing" mean?
matou
03-05-2012, 12:25 PM
Trial has been shut down until 130 when an in camera hearing will begin.
What does this mean?
https://twitter.com/#!/raffertylfp
Alice Ramnit
03-05-2012, 12:32 PM
In camera describes court cases (or portions thereof) that the public and press are not admitted to.
In camera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I don't imagine we are going to hear much today.
nursebeeme
03-05-2012, 12:32 PM
an "in camera" hearing is when they go into judges' chambers (at least in the us) . The court reporter also attends
matou
03-05-2012, 12:33 PM
Reporters are saying that they are still not allowed into the courtroom at 1:30. Is this a private hearing between judge and lawyers?
AM980.ca @AM980_Court
We still won't be allowed back in the courtroom at 1:30. Not sure when that will happen at this point.
https://twitter.com/#!/AM980_Court
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 12:34 PM
I think it means a hearing in chambers (outside the presence of the jury).
The plea deal seems to be more and more plausible, imo unless it's some stupid defense motion not to have Tara in the courtroom.
nursebeeme
03-05-2012, 12:34 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/topstories/2012/03/05/mi-300-rafferty-cbc.jpg
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/03/05/tori-stafford-trial-begins.html
court drawing from this morning
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 12:35 PM
In camera (Latin: "in a chamber")[1] is a legal term meaning "in private".[1] It is also sometimes termed in chambers or in curia.
http://en.mimi.hu/law/in_camera.html
The defense/pros must be disputing evidence or perhaps disputes witnesses on the opposition's witness list.
Ok, so now it sounds like they just ended up holding the incamera session in the courtroom, rather than the judge's chambers as customary.
Probably something that came up at the last minute. One of the lawyers may have seen something on the oppositions lists or whatever, while they were reviewing the case this weekend.
JMHO
fran
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 12:36 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/topstories/2012/03/05/mi-300-rafferty-cbc.jpg
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/03/05/tori-stafford-trial-begins.html
court drawing from this morning
It doesn't even look like him.
Reporters are saying that they are still not allowed into the courtroom at 1:30. Is this a private hearing between judge and lawyers?
AM980.ca @AM980_Court
We still won't be allowed back in the courtroom at 1:30. Not sure when that will happen at this point.
https://twitter.com/#!/AM980_Court
hmmm........... the press still won't be allowed after recess?
Interesting.
Must be something or SOMEONE they don't want the public to see or know about.
fran
Sparklin
03-05-2012, 12:37 PM
Media setup outside courthouse. Tori's father Rodney Stafford expected to address media soon #sl yfrog.com
It is amazing how his appearance has changed in the past 3 years.
Sparklin
03-05-2012, 12:39 PM
What does an "in camera hearing" mean?
Private ~ in chambers (behind closed doors)
What a very odd way of stating PRIVATE ~ 'in camera' .. huh??
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 12:43 PM
Private ~ in chambers (behind closed doors)
What a very odd way of stating PRIVATE ~ 'in camera' .. huh??
LOL.....I was thinking the same thing.
nursebeeme
03-05-2012, 12:43 PM
Private ~ in chambers (behind closed doors)
What a very odd way of stating PRIVATE ~ 'in camera' .. huh??
it has roots in meaning other than an actual camera like a picture-taking kind (it was actually a building iirc)
also... I think this is a picture (speaking of cameras LOL) of the judge? It was just tweeted but not sure who it is:
http://images.scribblelive.com/2012/3/5/859b7a87-b34b-4837-9307-c28f87ec0a88_300.jpg
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/03/05/tori-stafford-trial-begins.html
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 12:54 PM
Will they live stream Rodney? Anybody know and have a link handy? Thanks
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 12:55 PM
ooops..nevermind found one
http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/News/Canada/1239665812/ID=2129383292
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 12:57 PM
Did I miss it? :waitasec:
Sparklin
03-05-2012, 12:58 PM
ooops..nevermind found one
http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/News/Canada/1239665812/ID=2129383292
UGH...thanks so much ~ I've been searching :)
And worst, totally missed it. Work is seriously interfering!!
nobodyzgirl
03-05-2012, 12:58 PM
I suspect the in-camera hearing has to do with the publication ban and the sensitivity of some of the information that they still don't want the public to hear - JMO.
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 01:00 PM
I suspect the in-camera hearing has to do with the publication ban and the sensitivity of some of the information that they still don't want the public to hear - JMO.
One would think they would've taken care of it BEFORE trial. :banghead:
Sparklin
03-05-2012, 01:01 PM
UGH...thanks so much ~ I've been searching :)
And worst, totally missed it. Work is seriously interfering!!
Family says Tori was full of life.A little girl who loved butterflies and puppies.they want justice for her #sl #toristafford #rafferty
by nagyCBC via twitter 12:57 PM
Tori's grandmother talking.She is glad this day has come so they can start to heal #sl #rafferty #toristafford
by nagyCBC via twitter 12:48 PM
He wants people to remember his daughter. #sl #rafferty. #toristafford
by nagyCBC via twitter 12:48 PM
He says it is not about Rafferty. It is about Tori #sl #rafferty #toristafford
by nagyCBC via twitter 12:46 PM
Rodney Stafford says his heart is still broken and this is a difficult day #sl #toristafford #rafferty
by nagyCBC via twitter 12:46 P
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 01:02 PM
UGH...thanks so much ~ I've been searching :)
And worst, totally missed it. Work is seriously interfering!!
Well, they said 1:00 and it's 1:00 now so I don't know why we missed it. WTH?
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 01:07 PM
Tara McDonald, mother of murder victim Tori Stafford, arrives to court in London, Ont., as the trial for Michael Rafferty charged with first-degree murder begins March 5, 2012.
http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/01381/WEB-stafford05n_1381461cl-8.jpg
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/crown-to-reveal-case-against-accused-in-tori-stafford-death/article2358818/?utm_medium=Feeds%3A%20RSS%2FAtom&utm_source=Home&utm_content=2358818
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 01:11 PM
http://images.ctv.ca/archives/CTVNews/img2/20120305/800_rodney_stafford_arrives_at_court2_cp_120305.jp g
Rodney Stafford, father of slain Tori Stafford, arrives at the courthouse in London, Ont., March 5, 2011. (Geoff Robins / THE CANADIAN PRESS)
http://calgary.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20120305/tori-stafford-death-michael-rafferty-trial-opens-120305/20120305/?hub=CalgaryHome
Sparklin
03-05-2012, 01:13 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Rodney Stafford frustrated by inabilty to talk about trial "you can't talk about it, there are so many gag orders"
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 01:32 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
"Her name should be bigger than Raffertey" said Stafford saying his daughter is being forgotten - calls Rafferty monster
VICTORIA
That's the biggest I can go Rodney! :rose:
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 01:35 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
No good info oh why Rafferty trial delayed.- lawyers may be debating procedure but courtrooms not usually cleared for that. just jury
Wondergirl
03-05-2012, 01:39 PM
From TLM's proceedings:
Victim impact statements from Tori Stafford’s family
http://www.thestar.com/news/article/904172--victim-impact-statements-from-tori-stafford-s-family
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 01:48 PM
Ugh! This is so frustrating!
Sparklin
03-05-2012, 01:53 PM
Ugh! This is so frustrating!
They are letting them back into the courtroom even though it has not resumed.
I'm glad I didn't go today!!
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 01:54 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Back in the courtroom, trial should resume soon
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:01 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Jury coming back in
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:02 PM
I guess we won't know why the trial was stopped. :notgood:
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:03 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
RAW VIDEO: Rodney Stafford's comments outside the London courthouse. bit.ly/vZHxOz
https://twitter.com/#!/raffertylfp
Hello_Kitty
03-05-2012, 02:07 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
"Her name should be bigger than Raffertey" said Stafford saying his daughter is being forgotten - calls Rafferty monster
VICTORIA
That's the biggest I can go Rodney! :rose:
I for one as most people here have never forgotten her!!!!
daisy.faithfull
03-05-2012, 02:08 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
RAW VIDEO: Rodney Stafford's comments outside the London courthouse. bit.ly/vZHxOz
https://twitter.com/#!/raffertylfp
I really admire Rodney S.
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:09 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Gowdey said McClintic took Tori to Rafferty's car at parking lot near her home
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Tori was wearing her mom's butterfly earings - was going to watch High School Musical 3 on day she was abducted
KMouse
03-05-2012, 02:09 PM
Before these trials start I always have a feeling of melancholy and sorrow.
For those of us that will be following I always feel we are feeling the same and want the same and are united in our hope for justice.
I hope that Tori's parents can somehow feel our prayers as we stand behind them to help hold them up.
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:10 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Tara's mom looked frantically when Tori did not come home reported her missing just after 6 p.m.
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:11 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Gowdey said video at 3:32 p.m. showed women taking Tori by hand on Fyfe Avenue in Woodstock
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:12 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Gowdey said Raffertey drove off on Hwy 401 immediately after abducting Tori
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:15 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Tori was first taken to Guelph where Raffferty used to live -went to house of Barbara Armstrong bought Percosets
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Gowdey said video cameras at CASS provided vital clues to investigation Honda Civic was spotted three times by video
Sparklin
03-05-2012, 02:17 PM
AM980.ca @AM980_Court
Crown says the accused visited Barbara Armstrong, a friend of Rafferty's in Guelph to buy drugs. Tori was in the car, but was not seen.
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:18 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Car went to Home Depot in Guelph, McClintic bought garbage bags and hammer paid cash put stuff in trunk
Kittymama
03-05-2012, 02:19 PM
I have a couple questions; I hope everyone doesn't mind. Who is Gowdey? The prosecutor? What is CASS? And who is Barbara Armstrong? It's been so long that I don't remember if I've heard that name before.
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:19 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Civic went north of Guelph on Hwy 6, police did not find body of Tori near Mount Forest for 103 days
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:21 PM
I have a couple questions; I hope everyone doesn't mind. Who is Gowdey? The prosecutor? What is CASS? And who is Barbara Armstrong? It's been so long that I don't remember if I've heard that name before.
Yes Prosecutor, CASS High School, BA is a drug dealer I guess. They bought drugs from her
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:22 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Police did not find body by accident, they got phone records from Rafferty's Blackberry with call from cell tower near Mount Forest
Hello_Kitty
03-05-2012, 02:22 PM
I have a couple questions; I hope everyone doesn't mind. Who is Gowdey? The prosecutor? What is CASS? And who is Barbara Armstrong? It's been so long that I don't remember if I've heard that name before.
I believe CASS is the high school video, Barbara Armstrong is MR's drug supplier friend I guess, and Gowdy must be the crown prosecutor? That's my guess.
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:23 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
With Blackberry call and description of house from McClintic they were able to find Tori's body in garbage bags near rock pile
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:25 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Tori was killed by multiple hammer blows and other injuries that lacerated her liver, she was onlyl wearing her Hannah Montana T-shirt
:cry:
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:25 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Garbage bags that Tori was found in matched those bought by McClintic
Kittymama
03-05-2012, 02:28 PM
I wonder who he called?
I knew it about the hammer. :( So awful.
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:28 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Phone records linked McClintic and Rafferty even after she was arrested - Rafferty visited her at detention centre
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Police picked up McClinitic on outstanding unrelated warrant and started questioning her about Tori
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:30 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
OPP then picked up Rafferty and confiscated his Honda Civic
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
May 19 McClintic gave statement to police at first denial then admitted she abducted Tori -gave full story
Hello_Kitty
03-05-2012, 02:31 PM
I wonder who he called?
I knew it about the hammer. :( So awful.
I wonder who they used the Percosets on?
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:31 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
McClintic then tried to help police locate Tori's body , showed police when they discarded Tori's shoes
Kittymama
03-05-2012, 02:32 PM
I wonder who they used the Percosets on?
Oh, I assumed it was for themselves, but good point.
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:33 PM
Oh, I assumed it was for themselves, but good point.
I'm pretty sure it was for themselves.
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:34 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
The police found hair dye in McClinitic's home and a reciept for same in Raffertey's home
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
The couple found hair dye in McClintic's home and a receipt for same in Rafferty's home after Tory was abducted
Hello_Kitty
03-05-2012, 02:35 PM
I'm pretty sure it was for themselves.
Of course they used it on themselves, but I think they may have drugged her too, JMO.
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:35 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
RAW VIDEO: Full comments from Tori's grandmother given during lunch break at the Rafferty trial: bit.ly/xLGdMt
https://twitter.com/#!/raffertylfp
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:36 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Blood was found on gym bag in car - this sample could be linked to Rafferty and Tori
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Blood was found on rear moulding of Honda Civic, could be linked to Tori
====
could (??)
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:38 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
When police seized Civic it had no back seat - before abduction it did. Much of car had been painted over with matte black paint, some of the interior had been whitewashed, police tried to find missing back seat
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:39 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Police took McClintic on vain search for Tori's body including helicopter and ground search
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:40 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Crown will trace relationship between Rafferty and McClintic before and after abcduction
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:41 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Rafferty "really liked his Blackberry" says Crown - was used by police to trace his movements
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:43 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Raffertey went to Bell store in Masonville to get his Blackberry replaced Police spotted his car at his Woodstock home - suspect vehicle
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:44 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Rafferty was in the process of trying to get another car when he was arrested
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:45 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Crown said several videos in Guelph and Woodstock will link them to each other and to the crime
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:47 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Gowdey said first degree murder can be deliberate or as the result of a kidnapping or sexual assault
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:53 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Gowdey introduces crown prosecution team and key police investigators
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Crown said a person is guilty of first degree even if they only helped with the killing -equally guilty of murder with actual killer
kmclaren
03-05-2012, 02:55 PM
thanks for the updates ~n/t~, i'm reading am980 twitter too (while trying to work at the same time) - my head is spinning! it sure sounds like they have a lot of solid evidence and a good strong case. i hope that this BA person is available as a witness...
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:55 PM
Is he saying MR is not the actual killer?
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:56 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Trial will hear from Tori's teacher and police identification officer
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
"This trial will be hard on all of us, hard to listen to,," says Gowdey . Tale told in "chapters" starting with Tori's last day of school
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 02:59 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
First evicence will centre on Oliver Stephen's school and the trip out of town
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 03:00 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Tara MacDonald, Tori's mother will testify on the day she disappeared , will describe original plans for the day, frantic search
kmclaren
03-05-2012, 03:00 PM
Is he saying MR is not the actual killer?
I got that impression too but maybe they just want to reinforce to the jury in case MR says TLM "did it" - maybe that's what we're supposed to be all shocked about it...
@AM980_Court
AM980.ca
Crown explains that helping somebody commit an offense makes them equally as guilty as the person who committed the crime.
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 03:01 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Teri -lynne McClintic will be a witness She has pleaded guilty and is serving life sentence. She will explain how it all happened
nobodyzgirl
03-05-2012, 03:04 PM
#Rafferty -Crown admits McClintic's credibility will be a major issue in this case. Urges jury to listen carefully to her.
by citycynthia via twitter
http://live.citynews.ca/Event/Francis_DSouza_and_Cynthia_Mulligan_are_live_in_Lo ndon_Ont
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 03:05 PM
I got that impression too but maybe they just want to reinforce to the jury in case MR says TLM "did it" - maybe that's what we're supposed to be all shocked about it...
@AM980_Court
AM980.ca
Crown explains that helping somebody commit an offense makes them equally as guilty as the person who committed the crime.
I'm not liking the "could be's". He could be the killer and it could be Tori's blood? How could they not know that?
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 03:05 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
McClintic provided police with a drawing showing the crime scene and nearby house
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
"Her credibility will be an issue in this case" admits Gowdey. Look to see if her evidence is confirmed by others says Gowdey
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 03:07 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Rafferty's friend Barbara Armstrong will testify. Jury will also see Guelph video of Rafferty and McClintic visiting ABM and Home Depot
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 03:09 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Jury will be taken to the crime scene near Mount Forest "I know it will be difficult to go there, but it's crucial"
Kittymama
03-05-2012, 03:12 PM
The more I think about it, the more I think I've heard the name "Barbara Armstrong" relating to this case before. But I don't remember the context.
Could hammer blows damage the liver like that, or does that mean there was another weapon as well?
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 03:14 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Evidence of Tori's autopsy will show severe damage to skull, brain liver and ribs - warning that autopsy pictures will be "graphic"
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 03:15 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Rafferty's car will provide crucial evidence including blood samples and removal of back seat.
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 03:16 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Rafferty will be linked to area around crime scene, also evidence re odd comments he made to friends about Tori, and his Blackberry records
Kittymama
03-05-2012, 03:18 PM
I wonder what the "odd comments" were?
daisy.faithfull
03-05-2012, 03:18 PM
thanks for the updates ~n/t~, i'm reading am980 twitter too (while trying to work at the same time) - my head is spinning! it sure sounds like they have a lot of solid evidence and a good strong case. i hope that this BA person is available as a witness...
"AM980.ca @AM980_Court (Sparklin)
Crown says the accused visited Barbara Armstrong, a friend of Rafferty's in Guelph to buy drugs. Tori was in the car, but was not seen."
Just wanted to point out that unfortunately it doesn't sound like BA saw Tori.
nobodyzgirl
03-05-2012, 03:21 PM
#Rafferty -crown: at end of trial not necessary or essential who did what, who inflicted trauma. Your task to decide if they acted together
by citycynthia via twitter 3:17 PM
http://live.citynews.ca/Event/Francis_DSouza_and_Cynthia_Mulligan_are_live_in_Lo ndon_Ont
myzzy
03-05-2012, 03:24 PM
#Rafferty -crown: at end of trial not necessary or essential who did what, who inflicted trauma. Your task to decide if they acted together
by citycynthia via twitter 3:17 PM
http://live.citynews.ca/Event/Francis_DSouza_and_Cynthia_Mulligan_are_live_in_Lo ndon_Ont
EEEK!!!
That dosent sound good, if they are saying they can only either come up with guilty because they ACTED TOGETHER or not guilty of acting together..
and nothing in between?????
Am i reading that right
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 03:28 PM
EEEK!!!
That dosent sound good, if they are saying they can only either come up with guilty because they ACTED TOGETHER or not guilty of acting together..
and nothing in between?????
Am i reading that right
He's charged with first degree murder. Nothing less so I'm assuming they can't go with a lesser charge. (not even kidnapping or sexual assault).
I'm confident they will have enough to convict.
Hello_Kitty
03-05-2012, 03:29 PM
EEEK!!!
That dosent sound good, if they are saying they can only either come up with guilty because they ACTED TOGETHER or not guilty of acting together..
and nothing in between?????
Am i reading that right
JMO but I think each is guilty of one of those charges, but since they were together, they could both be guillty of murder no matter who actually did it. I've suspected this for a while.
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 03:29 PM
London Free Press @RaffertyLFP
Trial is adjourned for the day. First witness will be at 10am tomorrow.
Kittymama
03-05-2012, 03:30 PM
I don't know, so far it sounds like they have mostly circumstantial evidence against him. I hope I'm missing something.
Kittymama
03-05-2012, 03:31 PM
Adjourned already!? That was quick, wasn't it? No wonder they expect it to take so long. I wonder who the first witness will be?
myzzy
03-05-2012, 03:31 PM
I was starting to think that if they couldnt prove they acted together that he could not be convicted, good to hear that shouldnt be the case. If he is guilty ( Which i believe he is ) then he should get the max pentatly possible so justice is served and the family can put some closure to their loss. I half tempted to go to the court house today but didnt, I may go one day as im local and would like to show my support to the family
myzzy
03-05-2012, 03:33 PM
Adjourned already!? That was quick, wasn't it? No wonder they expect it to take so long. I wonder who the first witness will be?
On the radio today they said that they also thought that since the process will take several months that they will only do court monday thru thursday to allow the jurors a bit of a break during the process also giving them more monetary payment then normally would recieve for being a juror.. wonder if i can find a link somewhere ( I heard it on the local London Radio this Am )
KMouse
03-05-2012, 03:36 PM
He's charged with first degree murder. Nothing less so I'm assuming they can't go with a lesser charge. (not even kidnapping or sexual assault).
I'm confident they will have enough to convict.
It sounds like they have a LOT.
--blood stains in car
--cell phone pings/records
--an eye witness/coaccused
--video
greenthumb
03-05-2012, 03:42 PM
JMO but I think each is guilty of one of those charges, but since they were together, they could both be guillty of murder no matter who actually did it. I've suspected this for a while.
I wonder if the prosecution is preparing the jury for the defense to portray TLM as the one who planned and then followed thru on kidnapping/murder and to say that MR just got caught up in it/was used by TLM... it sounds like both of them can be linked to the weapon(s)/car/Tori/garbage bags etc but the prosecution may not be able to definitively prove who did what. I hope it turns out to be a bit more conclusive than that, though.
Joining you all in your prayers for justice for Tori.
greenthumb
03-05-2012, 03:43 PM
Thanks to everyone here who kept us updated from so many sources today
antiquegirl
03-05-2012, 03:56 PM
Very, very disturbing stuff, to say the least! I have a million questions, not the least of which are:
Did TLM use up all the Oxys she bought that morning? Why the need for Percocets later that night? Was Tori drugged with them?
If Tori was killed at the site where she was found (as claimed), why was there blood on MR's gym bag and the inside of his car door?
Why did the Crown not once mention WHO killed Tori?
Why was the sexual assault not discussed by the Crown?
Why was there no opening statement by the defence? (And tomorrow the trial is supposed to begin with a witness testimony.) I thought that usually followed the Crown's statement.
So many more questions. This is not going to be a simple trial. It's all terribly upsetting. Poor little Tori! I so hope that she was unconscious when she was killed.
JMO
daisy.faithfull
03-05-2012, 03:58 PM
I don't know, so far it sounds like they have mostly circumstantial evidence against him. I hope I'm missing something.
Don't forget though that:
"A popular misconception is that circumstantial evidence is less valid or less important than direct evidence. This is only partly true: direct evidence is popularly, but mistakenly, considered more powerful. Many successful criminal prosecutions rely largely or entirely on circumstantial evidence..."
But:
"However, there is sometimes more than one logical conclusion inferable from the same set of circumstances. In cases where one conclusion implies a defendant's guilt and another his innocence, the "benefit of the doubt" principle would apply. Indeed, if the circumstantial evidence suggests a possibility of innocence, the prosecution has the burden of disproving that possibility.[6]"
Both quotes come from Circumstantial evidence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
The article also notes that blood evidence, fingerprints etc. are also circumstantial evidence.
I just wanted to point that out because I found during discussion's about Casey A's trial with people not on WS there was some confusion about that. A circumstantial case is by no means a weak case.
Hello_Kitty
03-05-2012, 04:05 PM
Very, very disturbing stuff, to say the least! I have a million questions, not the least of which are:
Did TLM use up all the Oxys she bought that morning? Why the need for Percocets later that night? Was Tori drugged with them?
If Tori was killed at the site where she was found (as claimed), why was there blood on MR's gym bag and the inside of his car door?
Why did the Crown not once mention WHO killed Tori?
Why was the sexual assault not discussed by the Crown?
Why was there no opening statement by the defence? (And tomorrow the trial is supposed to begin with a witness testimony.) I thought that usually followed the Crown's statement.
So many more questions. This is not going to be a simple trial. It's all terribly upsetting. Poor little Tori! I so hope that she was unconscious when she was killed.
JMO
The above is BBM
My opinion is that the Percosets were used to drug her.
And AG if you remember at the beginning when TLM was arrested, the news stories said that she told LE that she stepped away from the car while RF assaulted her.
Anyway, I guess we'll find out. Already this story is making me sick to my heart, I cannot imagine being in Tori's shoes, I just can't, poor baby.
greenthumb
03-05-2012, 04:09 PM
If Tori was killed at the site where she was found (as claimed), why was there blood on MR's gym bag and the inside of his car door
Perhaps this blood was transferred from his/her/their hands/clothing/weapon after the fact... it sounds like it was quite brutal, and that there quite literally would have been blood on his/her hands. Maybe digging into the gym bag for a towel to wipe off? And then the towel may have been discarded wherever the hammer/TLM's white jacket/rest of Tori's clothes went. Knowing that those things have not been recovered bothers me - I know it may mean that they were burned - but it may also mean that somewhere here in Southern Ontario, vital evidence may just be laying in a field waiting to be found. There's a lot of ground to search between Mt. Forest and Woodstock, could LE possibly have covered it all? I know I'll be keeping my eyes open if I go for walks, now that I know what I am looking for.
nobodyzgirl
03-05-2012, 04:30 PM
Very, very disturbing stuff, to say the least! I have a million questions, not the least of which are:
Did TLM use up all the Oxys she bought that morning? Why the need for Percocets later that night? Was Tori drugged with them?
If Tori was killed at the site where she was found (as claimed), why was there blood on MR's gym bag and the inside of his car door?
Why did the Crown not once mention WHO killed Tori?
Why was the sexual assault not discussed by the Crown?
Why was there no opening statement by the defence? (And tomorrow the trial is supposed to begin with a witness testimony.) I thought that usually followed the Crown's statement.
So many more questions. This is not going to be a simple trial. It's all terribly upsetting. Poor little Tori! I so hope that she was unconscious when she was killed.
JMO
Defence will give their opening statement when the Crown has rested their case.
My opinion is they didn't say who killed Tori because they don't know, and it would appear from what I read that they are just trying to link him to being there to get the conviction because they don't know if he was the one who murdered Tori or if it was TLM.
KMouse
03-05-2012, 04:33 PM
Any guesses on where he/they disposed of the rear seat of the car?
I get the concept of holdback evidence but sometimes if people knew what to keep an eye out for it may help with some of these cases.
myzzy
03-05-2012, 04:35 PM
Very, very disturbing stuff, to say the least! I have a million questions, not the least of which are:
Did TLM use up all the Oxys she bought that morning? Why the need for Percocets later that night? Was Tori drugged with them?
If Tori was killed at the site where she was found (as claimed), why was there blood on MR's gym bag and the inside of his car door?
Why did the Crown not once mention WHO killed Tori?
Why was the sexual assault not discussed by the Crown?
So many more questions. This is not going to be a simple trial. It's all terribly upsetting. Poor little Tori! I so hope that she was unconscious when she was killed.
JMO
Im with ya on all the questions, more then i want to think about.
Did TLM use up all the Oxys she bought that morning? Why the need for Percocets later that night? Was Tori drugged with them?
I take percs for my pain and usually they only last a hour or so. Not sure how many they got or took but it may not be that many ???
If Tori was killed at the site where she was found (as claimed), why was there blood on MR's gym bag and the inside of his car door?
Maybe the bag was in the back seat of the car and the inital assult happened in the car and dragged out into the field. I had assumed this when i heard it ??? plausible?
Kittymama
03-05-2012, 04:37 PM
I was also thinking the blood on the gym bag and the car might have been from Tori trying to fight back. :(
What is the part of the car they're talking about? Inside?
daisy.faithfull
03-05-2012, 04:38 PM
Okay, I copied and pasted the tweets of The Crown's opening statements as they were posted here at WS so it would be easier for me to look at. I took screen shots and then made a photobucket album of it. I think I did it right, I don't know it will help others.
http://s1259.photobucket.com/albums/ii555/movioletz/
Thanks to ~n/t~, Sparklin, and nobodyzgirl for posting them.
(Sorry about the red and green squiggles. I copied and pasted as is and I don't know how to remove them without correcting them and I don't think I should do that.)
myzzy
03-05-2012, 04:41 PM
Any guesses on where he/they disposed of the rear seat of the car?
I would guess burned and in a metal scrap yard since it hasnt been found ( that we know of ). A backseat is rather large item and only reason to get rid of it would have been to get rid of OBVIOUS evidence ( Blood, tissue, ect ), which leads me to believe the attack and eventual murder happened in that backseat in the remote location they ended up finding her.
flipflop
03-05-2012, 04:41 PM
I'm not liking the "could be's". He could be the killer and it could be Tori's blood? How could they not know that?
Could they be wording it this way, as the evidence that will be presented will prove who's blood it is etc.
kmclaren
03-05-2012, 04:43 PM
"AM980.ca @AM980_Court (Sparklin)
Crown says the accused visited Barbara Armstrong, a friend of Rafferty's in Guelph to buy drugs. Tori was in the car, but was not seen."
Just wanted to point out that unfortunately it doesn't sound like BA saw Tori.
True, but BA can testify that she interacted with MR (&TLM) that day which would re-inforce/support what TLM will tell about that day. As they said in one of the tweets, TLM's credibility may be an issue but told jurors to weigh what she says against supporting testimony (or something like that) - so even so BA may not have seen Tori, she can back up what TLM will say...
daisy.faithfull
03-05-2012, 04:44 PM
So its possible that Tori was drugged out unconscious?
myzzy
03-05-2012, 04:48 PM
Could they be wording it this way, as the evidence that will be presented will prove who's blood it is etc.
Oh interesting thought. I cant believe that TLM could have such a hold over MR that he just watched as it happened or went along with it
But I could imagine him being the instigator and TLM being the one who was so infatuated with MR that she was able to be persauded into the involvement of murdering Tori
Hello_Kitty
03-05-2012, 04:49 PM
So its possible that Tori was drugged out unconscious?
My opinion is that is what they used the Percosets for. I just feel it in my bones.
myzzy
03-05-2012, 04:49 PM
So its possible that Tori was drugged out unconscious?
Anything is possible eh?
I would not think they would have enough compassion to give her drugs, I bet my life it the drugs was for their enjoyment only and consumed by them.
flipflop
03-05-2012, 04:52 PM
So its possible that Tori was drugged out unconscious?
I am thinking she was was drugged the minute she was put into the car to keep her quiet, she seemed like the type that had alot of spunk and would have put up a good fight. If she was drugged, hopefully she remembered nothing and felt nothing!!!!! RIP Tori....this case is all about justice for YOU!!!
daisy.faithfull
03-05-2012, 04:53 PM
Anything is possible eh?
I would not think they would have enough compassion to give her drugs, I bet my life it the drugs was for their enjoyment only and consumed by them.
Me either. But they could have used the drugs to restrain her so she wouldn't fight. Tara (I think) said that she was a fighter.
ETA: after I posted flipflop said she thought Tori was fiesty too, but I'm leaving my post as I agree.
Hello_Kitty
03-05-2012, 04:55 PM
Anything is possible eh?
I would not think they would have enough compassion to give her drugs, I bet my life it the drugs was for their enjoyment only and consumed by them.
I respectfully disagree, I think they are cowards enough to not want to hear her screams and see her struggles. She was sexually assaulted, drugged, then killed.
JMO
myzzy
03-05-2012, 05:04 PM
I respectfully disagree, I think they are cowards enough to not want to hear her screams and see her struggles. She was sexually assaulted, drugged, then killed.
JMO
If we didnt have diffrent opinions, these conversations would get boring :P
Some questions I would need to know to think otherwise i guess so ill throw some thoughts out and questions maybe someone can help
Have we heard how many pills they obtained?
How many pills would it take and how long to incompasitate Tori.
Why get pills AFTER the abduction, involving other people and potentionally alerting someone that there is a unknown child in the car
Hello_Kitty
03-05-2012, 05:08 PM
If we didnt have diffrent opinions, these conversations would get boring :P
Of course... Maybe it's just me wanting them to have a bit of humanity, because only monsters do things like that.
margaret_diane
03-05-2012, 05:11 PM
Still catching up but didn't We read media reports that JG and Daryn saw a puffy oat which they thought was the white one in question? Didn't we read it had been dyed pink and it was streaky? I wonder of it was the same one and what happened to it afterwards? Where was TLM when JG was said to have seen the coat at her home? And while I'm at it I noticed that JG seems to have been conspicuously absent from the proceedings today - at least I saw no mention of him in any media reports. Did you? Maybe he will also be called as a witness? Or maybe he and TM have been ordered to have no contact and not be within a certain distance of one another as a result of the criminal charges pending against them?
daisy.faithfull
03-05-2012, 05:12 PM
If we didnt have diffrent opinions, these conversations would get boring :P
Some questions I would need to know to think otherwise i guess so ill throw some thoughts out and questions maybe someone can help
Have we heard how many pills they obtained?
How many pills would it take and how long to incompasitate Tori.
Why get pills AFTER the abduction, involving other people and potentionally alerting someone that there is a unknown child in the car
We'd have to know the dosage per pill too or the total dose given to Tori.
She was small so it wouldn't take much. That stuff is very strong.
kmclaren
03-05-2012, 05:14 PM
From what I was able to listen to, I made a quick list of witnesses, please add any I've missed:
- teacher (s)
- parents who picked up their children around the same time
- police expert(s)
- coroner
- Tara (sounds like no other family members)
- TLM
- BA (the drug dealer)
- MR's friends/acquaintances (re: post April changes he made to his car and his "special" interest in Tori's case)
- experts re: cell phone records, video tapes, etc.
It sounds like they will be presenting the case sort of in order of actual events so the 1st witnesses would be the teachers, parents, then Tara, etc. And I got out of it that TLM would be testifying sometime after Tara and the video evidence but before BA and the coroner.
matou
03-05-2012, 05:15 PM
-The back seat was never recovered.
-Both Rafferty and McClintic had a Missing Person poster, in their homes, depicting Tori, when police searched them.
-Police never found the rest of Tori's clothes, her backpack or McClintic's jacket.
-Tori's rib fractures and lacerated liver happened before she suffered the fatal blow to the head.
-Tori was killed by repeated blows to the head and found naked from the waste down. She also suffered trauma to her torso and ribs.
-Rafferty also checked his voicemail at 7:47 the night Tori went missing. Call bounced off a cell phone tower near where her body was located
-Rafferty's used his blackberry frequently on April 8th, 2009. Police able to pinpoint where he was whenever he did.
-Crown says McClintic and Rafferty were caught on tape several times that day. Both in and outside of Woodstock.
-Rafferty's Honda Civic was also caught on tape several times.
-Crown says the accused visited Barbara Armstrong, a friend of Rafferty's in Guelph to buy drugs. Tori was in the car, but was not seen.
https://twitter.com/#!/AM980_Court
myzzy
03-05-2012, 05:22 PM
-The back seat was never recovered.
-Tori's rib fractures and lacerated liver happened before she suffered the fatal blow to the head.https://twitter.com/#!/AM980_Court
:(
What could cause a lacerated liver and rib fractures??? A savage beating? or a object inflicting the wounds?
margaret_diane
03-05-2012, 05:24 PM
True, but BA can testify that she interacted with MR (&TLM) that day which would re-inforce/support what TLM will tell about that day. As they said in one of the tweets, TLM's credibility may be an issue but told jurors to weigh what she says against supporting testimony (or something like that) - so even so BA may not have seen Tori, she can back up what TLM will say...
If BA was dealing Percocets and maybe even other drugs (who knows!?) then how credible a witness will SHE be? If she was dealing she may also have been using that day. Who knows if she has been or will be honest? Maybe she is minimizing what she knows, saw or heard in the days leading up to, day of and perhaps even following the abduction.
SilkySifaka
03-05-2012, 05:27 PM
:(
What could cause a lacerated liver and rib fractures??? A savage beating? or a object inflicting the wounds?
The hammer would do it as would fists. Don't forget the liver is smushy and tears easily
matou
03-05-2012, 05:28 PM
Maybe this friend of Rafferty's is a friend who he was bothering for drugs and not necessarily a dealer. JMO
matou
03-05-2012, 05:29 PM
The hammer would do it as would fists. Don't forget the liver is smushy and tears easily
There were rocks all over the area. I think those could have been used as well as the hammer. JMO
myzzy
03-05-2012, 05:30 PM
The hammer would do it as would fists. Don't forget the liver is smushy and tears easily
Thank you.
matou
03-05-2012, 05:34 PM
I had a feeling that Rafferty's phone would ping off of that cell tower located just a mile away. He used his phone several times that day and checked his voicemail. https://twitter.com/#!/AM980_Court
map: http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msid=203410295147159171605.00046ba276b2b212bada b&msa=0
daisy.faithfull
03-05-2012, 05:40 PM
Maybe this friend of Rafferty's is a friend who he was bothering for drugs and not necessarily a dealer. JMO
Good point! Tina (one of the girls he met on POF 18 mo. before the abduction) said that "asked persistently for OxyC's and for a period that is all he asked for".
I have that in quotes because that is exactly how I wrote it in my notes, I don't know if I took that verbatim from an article or which article I got that from.
The stopped for drugs, an atm, went shopping, used cell phone, while abducting and murdering this little girl. My head is spinning at their cold and in my opinion nonchalant attitude and my heart is breaking once again for Tori and her family.
daisy.faithfull
03-05-2012, 05:50 PM
Good point! Tina (one of the girls he met on POF 18 mo. before the abduction) said that "asked persistently for OxyC's and for a period that is all he asked for".
I have that in quotes because that is exactly how I wrote it in my notes, I don't know if I took that verbatim from an article or which article I got that from.
I :beats: Google
Its from this article:
http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/638574--tori-murder-accused-intelligent-and-weird
Tina, a Woodstock resident who asked that her last name not be used, met Rafferty on the dating site plentyoffish.com a year and a half ago. She says Rafferty quickly wanted to escalate their friendship to a romantic level. When she balked, he became distant – except when he needed money or drugs.
"I mentioned ... one day that my Dad has some medical problems and uses OxyContin," recalled Tina, 26. Then "he started phoning me up asking for Oxy. At one point he said he needed it for his mom and then for himself. For a while that's all he would call me about."
nonfictionrocks
03-05-2012, 06:03 PM
Still catching up but didn't We read media reports that JG and Daryn saw a puffy oat which they thought was the white one in question? Didn't we read it had been dyed pink and it was streaky? I wonder of it was the same one and what happened to it afterwards? Where was TLM when JG was said to have seen the coat at her home? And while I'm at it I noticed that JG seems to have been conspicuously absent from the proceedings today - at least I saw no mention of him in any media reports. Did you? Maybe he will also be called as a witness? Or maybe he and TM have been ordered to have no contact and not be within a certain distance of one another as a result of the criminal charges pending against them?
James may have testify which is could be why he was not there. Or perhaps no camera "caught him on tape". I hope Daryn does not have to testify. Maybe some legal eagle can assure us that there would no need for Daryn or James to be called as witnesses.
daisy.faithfull
03-05-2012, 06:07 PM
Vinnie N. didn't mention Tori in his opening. Have any of the HLN shows mentioned that Tori's trial is coming up?
OT: If anyone is following, Jason Young was found guilty. A largely circumstantial case.
antiquegirl
03-05-2012, 06:08 PM
I respectfully disagree, I think they are cowards enough to not want to hear her screams and see her struggles. She was sexually assaulted, drugged, then killed.
JMO
I believe that Tori was drugged, as well. The question is when and in what order the events happened. She could have been drugged before the sexual assault. (I hope so!) If she was, it was not out of compassion, or even cowardice, but for practical purposes. That feisty child had to be kept quiet all the way from Woodstock, through Guelph, and several stops before the Mt. Forest destination. Maybe she was drugged immediately, but it wore off and they went to get more from BA. Maybe her protests got worse by Guelph and that's when they felt the need to silence her.
If BA interacted with both MTR and TLM, that would mean that Tori would have been left alone in the car. They'd never do that, IMO, had she been conscious. If BA was MTR's friend and not TLM's, it would make sense that she'd stay behind while he picked up the drugs. Otherwise, Tori could have escaped or screamed. The other possibility is that BA is lying and Tori went into the house with them. BA could then be charged as an accessory and for withholding evidence.
There are many more possibilities here. We'll have to wait for the defence's statements and evidence to hear another side to this story.
All above JMO
nonfictionrocks
03-05-2012, 06:09 PM
If BA was dealing Percocets and maybe even other drugs (who knows!?) then how credible a witness will SHE be? If she was dealing she may also have been using that day. Who knows if she has been or will be honest? Maybe she is minimizing what she knows, saw or heard in the days leading up to, day of and perhaps even following the abduction.
If she was dealing percs she could be also dealing all kinds of other stuff - using too. Perhaps LE offered her some kind of incentive for her testimony.
daisy.faithfull
03-05-2012, 06:12 PM
If she was dealing percs she could be also dealing all kinds of other stuff - using too. Perhaps LE offered her some kind of incentive for her testimony.
If she was dealing she also may have been on drugs at the time, something that would make her an even more unreliable witness.
matou
03-05-2012, 06:18 PM
Vinnie N. didn't mention Tori in his opening. Have any of the HLN shows mentioned that Tori's trial is coming up?
OT: If anyone is following, Jason Young was found guilty. A largely circumstantial case.
I doubt HLN will cover this case since it's Canadian but you never know.
Hello_Kitty
03-05-2012, 06:23 PM
I believe that Tori was drugged, as well. The question is when and in what order the events happened. She could have been drugged before the sexual assault. (I hope so!) If she was, it was not out of compassion, or even cowardice, but for practical purposes. That feisty child had to be kept quiet all the way from Woodstock, through Guelph, and several stops before the Mt. Forest destination. Maybe she was drugged immediately, but it wore off and they went to get more from BA. Maybe her protests got worse by Guelph and that's when they felt the need to silence her.
If BA interacted with both MTR and TLM, that would mean that Tori would have been left alone in the car. They'd never do that, IMO, had she been conscious. If BA was MTR's friend and not TLM's, it would make sense that she'd stay behind while he picked up the drugs. Otherwise, Tori could have escaped or screamed. The other possibility is that BA is lying and Tori went into the house with them. BA could then be charged as an accessory and for withholding evidence.
There are many more possibilities here. We'll have to wait for the defence's statements and evidence to hear another side to this story.
All above JMO
You could be right AG that she was drugged before hand. I think that would be the only way to keep control of a child, to keep her from crying and screaming. (poor baby). But if she was indeed sexually assaulted, wouldn't her being unconscious defeat the purpose of keeping control by fear over his victim? Ultimately, sexual assault is about control yes? I'm not a psychologist, but I've read enough to know that it most often is. D'you understand? I'm french, so I may be explananing this all wrong :)
daisy.faithfull
03-05-2012, 06:24 PM
I doubt HLN will cover this case since it's Canadian but you never know.
I thought I remembered them (or maybe it was just NG back then) covering her disappearance. You're probably right though. I wish they would follow up on more stuff.
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 06:40 PM
I'm surprised by the defense not doing OS. Strange.
~n/t~
03-05-2012, 06:41 PM
I thought I remembered them (or maybe it was just NG back then) covering her disappearance. You're probably right though. I wish they would follow up on more stuff.
I think they'll probably mention it when the trial is over and a verdict is read but I doubt they'll do any trial coverage.
Hello_Kitty
03-05-2012, 06:41 PM
I'm surprised by the defense not doing OS. Strange.
What is OS?
maxfactor
03-05-2012, 06:46 PM
I'm surprised by the defense not doing OS. Strange.
I was too but I'm wondering if their strategy is to say as little as possible.
maxfactor
03-05-2012, 06:48 PM
What is OS?
Opening Statement, I think the defense usually does it after the Crown.
daisy.faithfull
03-05-2012, 06:57 PM
Opening Statement, I think the defense usually does it after the Crown.
Yup. Nobodyzgirl said:
"Defence will give their opening statement when the Crown has rested their case."
maxfactor
03-05-2012, 07:04 PM
Yup. Nobodyzgirl said:
"Defence will give their opening statement when the Crown has rested their case."
I always thought they both did opening statements on the first day, didn't realize the defense does it after the Crown rests.
Sparklin
03-05-2012, 07:11 PM
The stopped for drugs, an atm, went shopping, used cell phone, while abducting and murdering this little girl. My head is spinning at their cold and in my opinion nonchalant attitude and my heart is breaking once again for Tori and her family.
Don't forget stopping at Tims for tea!! Maybe at that point Tori was still thinking she was going to see a puppy and they bought her a warm drink to mix drugs in??
The fact that he had a smile on his face today makes me ill and shows no respect for any of these proceedings.
I remember how intensely EVERYONE was looking for that back car seat. There were tons of them reported, but we never heard anything about whether they were 'the one'!
I thought they did have TLM's coat? I thought she had tried dying it pink?
Sparklin
03-05-2012, 07:14 PM
James may have testify which is could be why he was not there. Or perhaps no camera "caught him on tape". I hope Daryn does not have to testify. Maybe some legal eagle can assure us that there would no need for Daryn or James to be called as witnesses.
The only reason I can see James NOT testifying is if the Crown thinks he will be a slight against their case. There was the info about him and Tara going to the police about TLM after he saw a white coat in her house no? I thought that was reported.
Seems TLM's mom moved away and no one knows where she is ~ guess she wouldn't be a good witness anyway.
flipflop
03-05-2012, 07:18 PM
Don't forget stopping at Tims for tea!! Maybe at that point Tori was still thinking she was going to see a puppy and they bought her a warm drink to mix drugs in??
The fact that he had a smile on his face today makes me ill and shows no respect for any of these proceedings.
I remember how intensely EVERYONE was looking for that back car seat. There were tons of them reported, but we never heard anything about whether they were 'the one'!
I thought they did have TLM's coat? I thought she had tried dying it pink?
I remember reading that as well. TLM's neighbours stated that they saw her white coat which she tried to dye pink. TLM's mother stated that TLM was taking clothes to drop off in London. In the end I thought too that LE had the coat.
What was with the hair dye that was tweeted today???? They found receipts in both MR and TLM's houses...who's hair were they dying...or did they try and dye the coat with it?????
matou
03-05-2012, 07:18 PM
Don't forget stopping at Tims for tea!! Maybe at that point Tori was still thinking she was going to see a puppy and they bought her a warm drink to mix drugs in??
The fact that he had a smile on his face today makes me ill and shows no respect for any of these proceedings.
I remember how intensely EVERYONE was looking for that back car seat. There were tons of them reported, but we never heard anything about whether they were 'the one'!
I thought they did have TLM's coat? I thought she had tried dying it pink?
It was reported today the the car seat was not recovered and neither was McClintic's coat or the rest of Tori's clothes or her bag.
https://twitter.com/#!/AM980_Court
antiquegirl
03-05-2012, 07:21 PM
You could be right AG that she was drugged before hand. I think that would be the only way to keep control of a child, to keep her from crying and screaming. (poor baby). But if she was indeed sexually assaulted, wouldn't her being unconscious defeat the purpose of keeping control by fear over his victim? Ultimately, sexual assault is about control yes? I'm not a psychologist, but I've read enough to know that it most often is. D'you understand? I'm french, so I may be explananing this all wrong :)
I do understand, Kitty. But it could be argued that sexual assault on a young child would involve control regardless of whether or not she was conscious. She would have no control under any conditions.
And then there are those who rape (the American word, not the Canadian) when their victims are under the influence of date rape drugs like Rohypnol. There is still control - only a slightly lesser element of sadism.
We still haven't heard evidence as to which of the two accused here committed the offence (and yes, I know which one was charged), nor has it been proven yet that the offence occurred. Until we hear what the Crown has to offer and after it is contested by the defence, we have only the opening statement. As Judge Heeney said, the statement is not evidence.
"He also cautioned them that the Crown's opening statement should not be taken as evidence."
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/05/michael-rafferty-tori-stafford-murder-trial_n_1320358.html
JMO
matou
03-05-2012, 07:22 PM
Chances the blood belonged to someone not related to Tori is 1 in 28 billion.
https://twitter.com/#!/AM980_Court
nonfictionrocks
03-05-2012, 07:25 PM
The only reason I can see James NOT testifying is if the Crown thinks he will be a slight against their case. There was the info about him and Tara going to the police about TLM after he saw a white coat in her house no? I thought that was reported.
Seems TLM's mom moved away and no one knows where she is ~ guess she wouldn't be a good witness anyway.
Rafferty's lawyer can subpoena witnesses too. I would imagine the Crown has a pretty good idea where Carol is right now but you are right, I can't imagine how she would be of any help, for either side.
antiquegirl
03-05-2012, 07:27 PM
[/B]
I remember reading that as well. TLM's neighbours stated that they saw her white coat which she tried to dye pink. TLM's mother stated that TLM was taking clothes to drop off in London. In the end I thought too that LE had the coat.
What was with the hair dye that was tweeted today???? They found receipts in both MR and TLM's houses...who's hair were they dying...or did they try and dye the coat with it?????
IIRC, the "pink" coat was seen before TLM's original arrest. She may have had time to dispose of it between the time of the crime and the day she was thrown in jail. Or ... MTR could have gone to pick it up and disposed of it for her.
I thought TLM dyed her hair to look less like the suspect in the video. This info came from the neighbours. If the receipt was found at MTR's house, maybe they bought it together. How strange, though, that he would still have it three months later. (There should have been no need for MTR to dye his hair and none of his friends reported him having done so.) I wonder if the receipt could have actually belonged to his mother. There should be a date on it. If the date is later than TLM's arrest, they can't tie it to her.
JMO
matou
03-05-2012, 07:32 PM
[/B]
I remember reading that as well. TLM's neighbours stated that they saw her white coat which she tried to dye pink. TLM's mother stated that TLM was taking clothes to drop off in London. In the end I thought too that LE had the coat.
What was with the hair dye that was tweeted today???? They found receipts in both MR and TLM's houses...who's hair were they dying...or did they try and dye the coat with it?????
I remember reading somewhere that he bought the hair dye for TLM. The receipt was found in his house so I guess it's true. Maybe it was on Facebook a long time ago. This is not new info to me at all.
He was in the process of trying to get another car when he was arrested. So I don't think he was at the gym when he was arrested. Trying to get another car as in borrowing a car? Buying a car? Trading one in?
"Rafferty went to Bell store in Masonville to get his Blackberry replaced Police spotted his car at his Woodstock home." Does this mean that while he was out trying to replace his phone that his car was spotted? So I guess LE had an idea of what vehicle they were looking for, etc.
https://twitter.com/#!/raffertylfp
maxfactor
03-05-2012, 07:33 PM
Mr. Rafferty kept in contact by phone with Ms. McClintic, who was arrested on a warrant in a different case a few days after Tori’s death. The jury is also expected to see a video of him visiting her in prison.
Mr. Gowdey also tried to link Mr. Rafferty to the locales where the abduction and killing happened: he had lived and worked in both Guelph and Mount Forest, the rural area where Tori’s body was found, he said. Mr. Rafferty also had family in the area.
He outlined other pieces of evidence the Crown expects to present about Mr. Rafferty’s actions after the killing: a search of Mr. Rafferty’s home turned up a “missing” poster of Tori and Ms. McClintic, he said, had a script of what she was to say to police if they questioned her in the case.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/tori-stafford-died-from-multiple-hammer-blows-to-the-head-jury-hears/article2358818/
daisy.faithfull
03-05-2012, 07:37 PM
I do understand, Kitty. But it could be argued that sexual assault on a young child would involve control regardless of whether or not she was conscious. She would have no control under any conditions.
And then there are those who rape (the American word, not the Canadian) when their victims are under the influence of date rape drugs like Rohypnol. There is still control - only a slightly lesser element of sadism.
We still haven't heard evidence as to which of the two accused here committed the offence (and yes, I know which one was charged), nor has it been proven yet that the offence occurred. Until we hear what the Crown has to offer and after it is contested by the defence, we have only the opening statement. As Judge Heeney said, the statement is not evidence.
"He also cautioned them that the Crown's opening statement should not be taken as evidence."
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/05/michael-rafferty-tori-stafford-murder-trial_n_1320358.html
JMO
Is it a different word up there?
daisy.faithfull
03-05-2012, 07:45 PM
I do understand, Kitty. But it could be argued that sexual assault on a young child would involve control regardless of whether or not she was conscious. She would have no control under any conditions.
And then there are those who rape (the American word, not the Canadian) when their victims are under the influence of date rape drugs like Rohypnol. There is still control - only a slightly lesser element of sadism.
We still haven't heard evidence as to which of the two accused here committed the offence (and yes, I know which one was charged), nor has it been proven yet that the offence occurred. Until we hear what the Crown has to offer and after it is contested by the defence, we have only the opening statement. As Judge Heeney said, the statement is not evidence.
"He also cautioned them that the Crown's opening statement should not be taken as evidence."
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/05/michael-rafferty-tori-stafford-murder-trial_n_1320358.html
JMO
From the above article:
"In the end it is not necessary or essential that you determine exactly who did what, for example which of the two delivered the hammer blows to the skull or who inflicted the trauma to Tori's body that lacerated her liver, broke her ribs," Gowdey said.
I'm still kinda puzzled about this. Wouldn't TLMc have said how this happened? Or are they saying who did what is irrelevant incase MRT's attorney's say that TLMc actually killed Tori?
matou
03-05-2012, 07:49 PM
After police questioned him, Mr. Rafferty attempted to get rid of his car, Mr. Gowdey said. He also tried to switch cell phones and removed his car’s back seat, which has never been recovered.
Does this mean he only tried to get rid of the seat after he was questioned by police?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/tori-stafford-died-from-multiple-hammer-blows-to-the-head-jury-hears/article2358818/
maxfactor
03-05-2012, 07:51 PM
From the above article:
I'm still kinda puzzled about this. Wouldn't TLMc have said how this happened? Or are they saying who did what is irrelevant incase MRT's attorney's say that TLMc actually killed Tori?
I think they will wait for TLM to testify before they tell the details. Apparently there is still a ban on what she testified to.
daisy.faithfull
03-05-2012, 07:52 PM
IIRC, the "pink" coat was seen before TLM's original arrest. She may have had time to dispose of it between the time of the crime and the day she was thrown in jail. Or ... MTR could have gone to pick it up and disposed of it for her.
I thought TLM dyed her hair to look less like the suspect in the video. This info came from the neighbours. If the receipt was found at MTR's house, maybe they bought it together. How strange, though, that he would still have it three months later. (There should have been no need for MTR to dye his hair and none of his friends reported him having done so.) I wonder if the receipt could have actually belonged to his mother. There should be a date on it. If the date is later than TLM's arrest, they can't tie it to her.
JMO
Maybe he bought it, didn't use it so it was still in the bag with the receipt??
ETA: Nevermind, matou cleared it up, I tried to delete this message but I don't know if it was done.
maxfactor
03-05-2012, 07:55 PM
After police questioned him, Mr. Rafferty attempted to get rid of his car, Mr. Gowdey said. He also tried to switch cell phones and removed his car’s back seat, which has never been recovered.
Does this mean he only tried to get rid of the seat after he was questioned by police?
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/tori-stafford-died-from-multiple-hammer-blows-to-the-head-jury-hears/article2358818/
I find it interesting that he did all of those things after he was questioned. They should have witnesses that could testify to these things, his girlfriend for example, close friends and his Mom, you would think they would have wondered where his back seat went all of a sudden, especially if they knew he had been questioned. IMO an innocent man would not have found it necessary to do any of those things. But that's just MO.
matou
03-05-2012, 07:57 PM
JMO but I think Rafferty would have just bought TLM a new coat and she wouldn't need to dye it any colour.
maxfactor
03-05-2012, 08:01 PM
2:37
Twitter
RaffertyLFP:
Much of car had been painted over with matte black paint, some of the interior had been whitewashed, police tried to find missing back seat [via Twitter]
http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/05/19459396.html
daisy.faithfull
03-05-2012, 08:02 PM
JMO but I think Rafferty would have just bought TLM a new coat and she wouldn't need to dye it any colour.
Dying that coat would have been a very messy process and a real PITA. Just basing that on my experiences attempting to dye stuff.
matou
03-05-2012, 08:06 PM
Dying that coat would have been a very messy process and a real PITA. Just basing that on my experiences attempting to dye stuff.
Exactly.
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