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Hopeful One
03-08-2012, 04:42 PM
Why hasn't this man been arrested??? I just don't understand this!

The family of a 17-year-old African-American boy shot to death last month in his gated Florida community by a white Neighborhood Watch captain wants to see the captain arrested, the family's lawyer said on Wednesday.

Trayvon Martin was shot dead after he took a break from watching NBA All-Star game television coverage to walk 10 minutes to a convenience store to buy snacks including Skittles candy requested by his 13-year-old brother, Chad, the family's lawyer Ben Crump said.

"He was a good kid," Crump said in an interview, adding that the family would issue a call for the Watch captain's arrest at a news conference on Thursday. "On his way home, a Neighborhood Watch loose cannon shot and killed him."

More at link: http://news.yahoo.com/family-florida-boy-killed-neighborhood-watch-seeks-arrest-044537742.html

tlcya
03-08-2012, 04:51 PM
Just nuts. Why indeed?

Since when is the neighborhood watch armed and dangerous???

I don't know how its done there but here, you do not carry weapons, you carry flashlights and cel phones.

You do not confront "suspicious" folks, you phone in tips to LE who then ask patrol to swing by and have a look.

Have I missed some crucial fact here? WHy is this watch captain not being charged with something, anything??

Jan
03-08-2012, 04:52 PM
That is just terrible! I'm sure the boy being black in a white community is why he was considered "suspicious," especially if he was visiting there and wasn't known to the people. But the watch captian should never have gotten out of his car and confronted the boy and definately shouldn't have shot him. The man should be convicted of first degree murder!

JeannaT
03-08-2012, 05:22 PM
As much as I hate vigilante nuts with guns, I'm sensing there's something not being said here.

The watch captain guy (who is only 26, and a college student, I was surprised, this type of thing usually seems to happen with much older men) found the boy "suspicious" and then followed him in his car. At some point George the Watch guy got out of his car and then it appears an altercation occurred. It seems to me that whatever George claims happened in that altercation is why he hasn't been arrested.

There was a very similar case here recently where a nutso home owner shot a young man to death in his driveway at night, as the young man was fleeing. He had been in a wreck and was standing in the driveway calling a friend to come pick him up when the vigilante chased him and shot him 3 times in the back. He was arrested and charged with murder for that, we'll see how his trial goes.

It would be interesting to hear what's on the 911 tapes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/08/family-of-trayvon-martin-_n_1332756.html

jjenny
03-08-2012, 05:25 PM
I agree with teenager's family. Where is self-defense? If the guy was armed and in his car, and teenager unarmed, why did the guy get out of his car to begin with?

JeannaT
03-08-2012, 06:10 PM
I agree with teenager's family. Where is self-defense? If the guy was armed and in his car, and teenager unarmed, why did the guy get out of his car to begin with?

I agree, and I think LE owes the family a lot more explanation if they plan not to charge George Z.

Jacie Estes
03-08-2012, 06:17 PM
Not everyone has the ability to handle/carry a gun safely; there is no excuse for this cowboy's actions. Charges are definitely in order.

JeannaT
03-08-2012, 06:27 PM
Here's a much more detailed article.

Apparently there was a loud verbal argument that went on long enough for more than one resident of the neighborhood to call 911. Then, after shots were fired more neighbors called 911. It doesn't appear George Z ever did.

After the shooting he was taken to the police station to complete the investigation and apparently at that point it sounds like there was a belief that it might have been justified.

I'm going to reserve judgement here. It may well be self-defense.

This is a gated community. Clearly it's the decision of the residents that they want to be protected, and they want to refuse entry to anyone they don't like walking around. It seems a neighborhood watch captain, in such a neighborhood, would be within their rights to stop and engage someone who looked out of place. And then the unthinkable happened.

Reading between the lines this boy didn't live in a community like this. I think if he were raised in this community with "gated community standards" you submit to questioning more than someone from Miami might have learned to submit to. It's understood by those who buy into the 'gated community' type residence that they are glad to have their watch captains, and support that kind of scrutiny. Personally, I'd hate it.

I hope there are more answers and there is peace here. No matter what, this is a loss.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/police-man-neighborhood-watch-shoots-kills-teen-vi/nK8LR/

Hopeful One
03-08-2012, 06:40 PM
Just nuts. Why indeed?

Since when is the neighborhood watch armed and dangerous???

I don't know how its done there but here, you do not carry weapons, you carry flashlights and cel phones.

You do not confront "suspicious" folks, you phone in tips to LE who then ask patrol to swing by and have a look.

Have I missed some crucial fact here? WHy is this watch captain not being charged with something, anything??

Exactly. And why did he shoot?? Did the boy do something to provoke him? There doesn't seem to be much information in that article. It seems to me that he shot the poor kid unprovoked. The kid has Skittles on him for gosh sakes!!

Hopeful One
03-08-2012, 06:43 PM
Thanks for the more detailed article, Jeanna. What a sad story no matter what really happened. A boy is dead. :(

I'm all for the right to carry guns but this seems to be a situation where maybe his life would have been saved if someone hadn't shot so quickly. Couldn't he have just pointed the gun at him until cops arrived?

MicciStella
03-08-2012, 06:48 PM
Self defense against what? This kid wasn't even armed.... And just visiting his dad... And i am sure it wasn't the first time he was there...

I expect to be able to walk around safely in a gated place... Just remember my visit at my uncle and aunts gates home...

Rest in peace young Trayvon...

Micci

jjenny
03-08-2012, 06:51 PM
There was more than one 911 call. According to the video linked in the OP, Z. called 911 and reported suspicious person (supposedly police told him to let police handle it). Then the neighbors called in to report a fight.

jjenny
03-08-2012, 06:58 PM
Police hasn't released the 911 call but G.Z. most definitely called 911 reporting a suspicious person, and police supposedly told him to wait for police. Where is the self-defense?

"On Thursday, Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee confirmed to WFTV that the dispatcher told Zimmerman to wait for officers to arrive."
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/family-teen-fatally-shot-neighborhood-watch-leader/nLNq9/

JeannaT
03-08-2012, 07:05 PM
Saying "they always get away" is certainly damning.

But I can see a case where you could shoot someone in self defense and truly be acting in self defense even though the other person didn't have a gun.

I don't know whether that's the case here, and maybe we'll know more soon. If they got into a physical fight, (just speculating) that could lead to someone pulling out a concealed weapon and defending themselves.

This sounds like the case of two puffed-up hotheads coming together and a tragedy occurring.

jjenny
03-08-2012, 07:06 PM
Doesn't sound like that to me. G.Z. was reportedly told by police not to interfere, so what business did he have confronting anyone?

JeannaT
03-08-2012, 07:16 PM
Doesn't sound like that to me. G.Z. was reportedly told by police not to interfere, so what business did he have confronting anyone?

I don't know. I don't know the rules of a gated community - as far as I know, they're private property and have the right under the rules of private property to elect/appoint watch captains who have the right to confront anyone they deem in their little minds to be suspicious. Because the whole neighborhood is owned and maintained by the neighborhood association, not the city. I think the legal key here may rest with the rights of gated private property owners vs. neighborhoods where the common areas (streets, sidewalks) are public property. It would be interesting to know more about their legal rights in this community.

MicciStella
03-08-2012, 07:30 PM
I don't know. I don't know the rules of a gated community - as far as I know, they're private property and have the right under the rules of private property to elect/appoint watch captains who have the right to confront anyone they deem in their little minds to be suspicious. Because the whole neighborhood is owned and maintained by the neighborhood association, not the city. I think the legal key here may rest with the rights of gated private property owners vs. neighborhoods where the common areas (streets, sidewalks) are public property. It would be interesting to know more about their legal rights in this community.

But it wasn't like he would have been a stranger... He was visiting his dad.... I just don't understand why GZ didn't wait for the police if he really was concerned.. In my opinion in what we know right now GZ took the law in his own hands and played police..

I don't want to blame him but there is not much reason for me right now to believe in self defense ...

Micci

Lovejac
03-08-2012, 08:48 PM
Why hasn't this man been arrested??? I just don't understand this!

The family of a 17-year-old African-American boy shot to death last month in his gated Florida community by a white Neighborhood Watch captain wants to see the captain arrested, the family's lawyer said on Wednesday.

Trayvon Martin was shot dead after he took a break from watching NBA All-Star game television coverage to walk 10 minutes to a convenience store to buy snacks including Skittles candy requested by his 13-year-old brother, Chad, the family's lawyer Ben Crump said.

"He was a good kid," Crump said in an interview, adding that the family would issue a call for the Watch captain's arrest at a news conference on Thursday. "On his way home, a Neighborhood Watch loose cannon shot and killed him."

More at link: http://news.yahoo.com/family-florida-boy-killed-neighborhood-watch-seeks-arrest-044537742.html


from your link above.

Without waiting for police to arrive, Crump said, Zimmerman confronted Trayvon, who was on the sidewalk near his home. By the time police got there, Trayvon was dead of a single gunshot to the chest.

"What do the police find in his pocket? Skittles," Crump said. "A can of Arizona ice tea in his jacket pocket and Skittles in his front pocket for his brother Chad."

GMAB, Trayvon was almost home! This is tragic and I am having a hard time seeing any 'self defense' excuse.

This family needs justice.

Lovejac
03-08-2012, 09:01 PM
Chief Bill Lee of the Sanford Police Department on Thursday evening said the account given by Martin’s family and attorney is correct, that Zimmerman saw the young man walking home from the store. He said that Zimmerman did indeed call 911 and report a suspicious person, and that he was told not to follow him.

“For some reason he felt that Trayvon, the way that he was walking or appeared seemed suspicious to him,” Lee said. “He called this in and at one part of this initial call [the dispatcher] recommends him not to follow Trayvon. A police officer is on the way at that point.”

Lee said that Zimmerman instead followed Martin.

“I believe that Mr. Zimmerman was trying to, by his account, find an address to give the officers and also trying to keep Trayvon in eyesight.”

Zimmerman told the police that Martin noticed that he was being followed and asked, “what’s your problem?”

That's when a physical confrontation ensued, Lee said. And moments later, Martin was shot.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/08/family-of-trayvon-martin-_n_1332756.html

this stinks to high heavens. Trayvon could have thought he was being follow by some pervert.

Zimmerman was told, by LE not to follow him but he did and now a life has been ended. I'm not saying I believe that Zimmerman meant to kill someone that night, but if he had listened to LE, Trayvon would still be alive.

MicciStella
03-08-2012, 09:13 PM
Wow... And reading the article posted above makes me really wonder... Apparently LE is investigating GZ regarding two other happenings...
And GZ with his background should have known better but to disobey the orders NOT to follow Trayvor...

Micci

LolaMoon08
03-08-2012, 09:21 PM
I want to know what is so suspicious about a 17-year-old boy walking home from a store? Was the only reason he was deemed "suspicious" because he was black? Was he walking in people's yards? Peeking in windows? Doesn't sound like it to me? Sounds like he was simply walking on the sidewalk. Anyone thinking how scared he could have been that someone was following him? With all the sickos out there? What if he had run? I believe this man would have still shot him.

Charges should be filed! He killed this boy.

MicciStella
03-08-2012, 09:21 PM
The chief said the police have met with Zimmerman on two to three separate occasions, and the there investigation should be wrapped up this week. He said all of the evidence in the case will be delivered to the State Attorney

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2012/03/08/family-of-trayvon-martin-_n_1332756.html

Here comes the question we probably asked ourselves so many times.

WHY DID THIS HAVE TO HAPPEN.....?

Micci

JeannaT
03-08-2012, 09:31 PM
From Lovejac's post, quoting the article:

Zimmerman told the police that Martin noticed that he was being followed and asked, “what’s your problem?”

That's when a physical confrontation ensued, Lee said. And moments later, Martin was shot.

This is key. If during a verbal confrontation, Trayvor attacked George Z physically and then he acted in self-defense, that's legal IMHO. It appears to me that's what happened, and that's why George Z isn't being charged with a crime. Reading between the lines that's what it seems might be the case.

Recently I've seen a couple cases where some unwitting teenager accidentally walks on some nut's property, and gets shot to death trying to escape the assault by the property owner. And that's NOT the same thing, IMHO. A young person who cuts across a lawn or is standing on a sidewalk in front of some vigilante's house and then is chased and shot in cold blood for just standing there is not the same thing as someone who is in a physical confrontation and then gets shot. Because if what I'm speculating is true, that George Z initiated a question about who Trayvor was, and Trayvor (justifiably) became defensive and a verbal argument ensured, and then as a result of that Trayvor physically attacked George Z, that's legally justified.

I don't know that scenario is true. I'm just guessing based on the few facts that have been told, and the response from LE not to charge George Z.

My heart is still breaking over the local case where a young man was standing in a driveway of a nutcase, and gunned down as he was trying to flee the verbal assault of the homeowner.

JeannaT
03-08-2012, 09:39 PM
I want to know what is so suspicious about a 17-year-old boy walking home from a store? Was the only reason he was deemed "suspicious" because he was black? Was he walking in people's yards? Peeking in windows? Doesn't sound like it to me? Sounds like he was simply walking on the sidewalk. Anyone thinking how scared he could have been that someone was following him? With all the sickos out there? What if he had run? I believe this man would have still shot him.

Charges should be filed! He killed this boy.

I think that's a fair guess. But maybe he would have aggressively pursued any teenager he thought he could get away with. It's hard to imagine he'd have treated an old man walking a little dog this way.

Hopeful One
03-08-2012, 09:41 PM
For the record, his name is Trayvon, not Trayvor. Just wanted to clear that up with respect for him. :)

LolaMoon08
03-08-2012, 09:56 PM
Even if it escalated to a physical confrontation you have to ask yourself... did the shooter jump out of the car in an aggressive manner after Tray asked "What's your problem?" If someone was following me and after I verbally confronted them and they jumped out of the car... I'm fighting! Do you think the outcome would have been any different had Tray ran? He'd have been shot in the back, imo. The shooter had to have gotten out of the car for there to be a physical altercation. He should have never gotten out of the car. There is nothing that justifies him shooting this young boy. Nothing!

MicciStella
03-08-2012, 09:58 PM
Oops ... Sorry ... Typo... I think you meant me... But I didn't mistype it all the time... And that I don't be respectful? ... Tough one....

JeannaT
03-08-2012, 10:40 PM
Even if it escalated to a physical confrontation you have to ask yourself... did the shooter jump out of the car in an aggressive manner after Tray asked "What's your problem?" If someone was following me and after I verbally confronted them and they jumped out of the car... I'm fighting! Do you think the outcome would have been any different had Tray ran? He'd have been shot in the back, imo. The shooter had to have gotten out of the car for there to be a physical altercation. He should have never gotten out of the car. There is nothing that justifies him shooting this young boy. Nothing!

I agree. This whole thing is just awful, and this young man is now dead. I do get that.

But yes, I do think the outcome (the arrest of the shooter) would have been different if Tray ran. I think George Z would have been arrested on the spot if the bullets were in Tray's back.

I'm not saying this isn't a tragedy. It's awful.

But I do think if Tray had grown up in this gated community he might be better at interacting with Crime Watch.

Prayers for his family.

MsFacetious
03-09-2012, 04:30 AM
He could have talked to him from the vehicle... what was this young man going to do to him IN his vehicle?

We have a cabin in a "gated" area. You pull up to the gate and if you don't have a key you can honk, or if there is already someone there, they will ask you who you are. You tell them which cabin/family you are with and they will let you in.

If you are seen walking/riding around there and someone does know who you are, they will stop and talk to you... to introduce themselves...
Because you are probably visiting family or friends.

This is ridiculous.

Hopeful One
03-09-2012, 10:07 AM
Oops ... Sorry ... Typo... I think you meant me... But I didn't mistype it all the time... And that I don't be respectful? ... Tough one....

I wasn't trying to be snippy, I was just pointing it out. And I wasn't directing it at anyone in particular. I didn't say it was disrespectful either.

JeannaT
03-09-2012, 10:55 AM
A few more details. It's not really clear who actually lived in the townhome in the gated community - this updated article says he and his father travelled there, to spend the week because Trayvon was suspended from school so he could "disconnect and get his priorities straight".

Complicated.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/08/2684419/shooting-mystery-miami-dade-teen.html

LolaMoon08
03-09-2012, 11:03 AM
I want to know who made physical contact first? Did the shooter grab Tray? We know he had to have jumped out of the car for there to even be a physical confrontation. I'm asking this because I have two nieces and we have taught them from an early age that if someone grabs you.. you fight like hell!! Did the shooter even identify himself as "Sir Bad Arse Neighborhood Watch?"

We have an innocent 17-year-old boy dead! For walking home from a store! He was on the sidewalk! He wasn't in people's yards! He wasn't peeking in windows! He was walking on the sidewalk! The only reason the shooter found him to be suspicious was because he was "black." He was told to stop following Tray! He did not follow Law Enforcements orders. He instead continued to follow Tray. Tray finally asked the guy "What's your problem?" Obviously, at that moment, the shooter jumped out of his car. With a gun! I'm willing to bet money that the shooter put his hands on Tray first. Like a citizen's arrest type of thing. Tray, confused, doesn't know why this complete stranger is grabbing him and he fights back. The shooter shoots Tray dead!

That's murder!

JeannaT
03-09-2012, 11:08 AM
More details. When police arrived on the scene, Zimmerman appeared to have been rolling around on the ground and had a bloody nose and was bleeding from the back of his head, and he had been calling out for help.

Sounds very much like it could be self-defense. This wouldn't have happened had Zimmerman not attempted to follow Trayvon, but that doesn't justify a physical assault, IMHO.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/08/trayvon-martin-fla-teen-k_n_1332440.html

JeannaT
03-09-2012, 11:13 AM
I want to know who made physical contact first? Did the shooter grab Tray? We know he had to have jumped out of the car for there to even be a physical confrontation. I'm asking this because I have two nieces and we have taught them from an early age that if someone grabs you.. you fight like hell!! Did the shooter even identify himself as "Sir Bad Arse Neighborhood Watch?"

We have an innocent 17-year-old boy dead! For walking home from a store! He was on the sidewalk! He wasn't in people's yards! He wasn't peeking in windows! He was walking on the sidewalk! The only reason the shooter found him to be suspicious was because he was "black." He was told to stop following Tray! He did not follow Law Enforcements orders. He instead continued to follow Tray. Tray finally asked the guy "What's your problem?" Obviously, at that moment, the shooter jumped out of his car. With a gun! I'm willing to bet money that the shooter put his hands on Tray first. Like a citizen's arrest type of thing. Tray, confused, doesn't know why this complete stranger is grabbing him and he fights back. The shooter shoots Tray dead!

That's murder!

In bold - I don't think we'll ever know that for sure. Zimmerman would have every reason to say he was grabbed first, and there is no one to dispute that.

Still, Zimmerman was bleeding from two places. From Zimmerman's point of view, how much physical assault do you have to withstand before shooting is justified? I think a bloody nose, and a bloody back of the head is enough to justify shooting the assailant, even if Zimmerman overstepped a little by confronting Trayvon.

LolaMoon08
03-09-2012, 11:15 AM
More details. When police arrived on the scene, Zimmerman appeared to have been rolling around on the ground and had a bloody nose and was bleeding from the back of his head, and he had been calling out for help.

Sounds very much like it could be self-defense. This wouldn't have happened had Zimmerman not attempted to follow Trayvon, but that doesn't justify a physical assault, IMHO.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/08/trayvon-martin-fla-teen-k_n_1332440.html

If Zimmerman put his hands on Tray first, it 100% justifies a physical assault! You put your hands on me first, I am fighting you! Did Zimmerman even identify himself to Tray before he jumped out of the car? We teach our kids to fight back in situations where they are confronted by a stranger. We applaud it and call them little hero's. What is the difference here? There is no difference. So Tray was getting the better of the big bully? Doesn't justify shooting the kid! He was told to leave Tray alone and he didn't! He aggressively followed and confronted him! Had he did what he was told to do... Tray would be alive. He's nothing more than a big headed wannabe cop who shot and killed an unarmed kid who was doing nothing illegal.

jjenny
03-09-2012, 11:15 AM
Police claim the 911 operator told him not to follow the boy. That's all I need to know. Even if there is no one to dispute whatever GZ is saying, that pretty much applies to many homicides (since the victim is dead). Using that logic no one ever will be prosecuted.

LolaMoon08
03-09-2012, 11:19 AM
I also want to hear the 911 calls! I want to know why he found Tray to be suspicious! If the only reason he was deemed "suspicious" was because the color of his skin, I'm going to be so ticked off. I'm white and I cannot stand racial profiling!

JeannaT
03-09-2012, 11:21 AM
If Zimmerman put his hands on Tray first, it 100% justifies a physical assault! You put your hands on me first, I am fighting you! Did Zimmerman even identify himself to Tray before he jumped out of the car? We teach our kids to fight back in situations where they are confronted by a stranger. We applaud it and call them little hero's. What is the difference here? There is no difference. So Tray was getting the better of the big bully? Doesn't justify shooting the kid! He was told to leave Tray alone and he didn't! He aggressively followed and confronted him! Had he did what he was told to do... Tray would be alive. He's nothing more than a big headed wannabe cop who shot and killed an unarmed kid who was doing nothing illegal.

We don't know any of the details of who started the altercation. It's an assumption that Zimmerman grabbed Tray, and that's anyone's guess.

I don't know if you live in a concealed carry state, but it's not a good idea to assault someone who confronts you, because you'll likely end up like Trayvon, which is sad. Where would the assault on Zimmerman have ended if he didn't have a gun? Would Zimmerman have a permanent brain injury, or even been dead? We don't know.

Without knowing more details - Zimmerman's general personality and appearance (it makes a difference if Zimmerman appeared threatening or appeared physically weaker), and why Trayvon was suspended at the time from his school.

Civility on both their parts would have kept this from happening in the first place.

jjenny
03-09-2012, 11:24 AM
We don't know any of the details of who started the altercation. It's an assumption that Zimmerman grabbed Tray, and that's anyone's guess.

I don't know if you live in a concealed carry state, but it's not a good idea to assault someone who confronts you, because you'll likely end up like Trayvon, which is sad. Where would the assault on Zimmerman have ended if he didn't have a gun? Would Zimmerman have a permanent brain injury, or even been dead? We don't know.

Without knowing more details - Zimmerman's general personality and appearance (it makes a difference if Zimmerman appeared threatening or appeared physically weaker), and why Trayvon was suspended at the time from his school.

Civility on both their parts would have kept this from happening in the first place.
It's not a good idea to follow someone either. Especially if GZ was told by the police not to. If somebody is following you what are you going to think this person is up to?

JeannaT
03-09-2012, 11:28 AM
Police claim the 911 operator told him not to follow the boy. That's all I need to know. Even if there is no one to dispute whatever GZ is saying, that pretty much applies to many homicides (since the victim is dead). Using that logic no one ever will be prosecuted.

911 operators don't have any authority to tell citizens what to do.

We've all heard cases where 911 operators say that - the police are on their way, don't act, and the person ends up dead.

This is awful, I'm not arguing that.

I'm saying that as Neighborhood Watch captain on private property, Zimmerman has the right to confront someone in the street who appears suspicious. (Whatever that means). He has that right. I don't know who touched who first, but I don't believe Zimmerman punched Trayvon before being hit himself. I just don't believe Trayvon was punched.

I've seen cases where teens who are totally innocent get shot by crazy homeowners, and this isn't looking like that to me. This is looking like two hair-trigger male personalities encountered each other, neither could manage to interact civilly, a physical fight broke out and when Zimmerman had sustained enough injuries to justify shooting the other combatant, he did.

That's how it looks to me.

JeannaT
03-09-2012, 11:32 AM
It's not a good idea to follow someone either. Especially if GZ was told by the police not to. If somebody is following you what are you going to think this person is up to?

It's different because I'm a small woman. If someone was following me, I'd try to back away, look for an exit area, look around for any lights on in homes. It's not really comparable what my reaction would be compared to the reaction of a fit young man. And although we've seen pictures of Trayvon, we haven't seen what GZ looks like.

jjenny
03-09-2012, 11:32 AM
911 operators don't have any authority to tell citizens what to do.

We've all heard cases where 911 operators say that - the police are on their way, don't act, and the person ends up dead.

This is awful, I'm not arguing that.

I'm saying that as Neighborhood Watch captain on private property, Zimmerman has the right to confront someone in the street who appears suspicious. (Whatever that means). He has that right. I don't know who touched who first, but I don't believe Zimmerman punched Trayvon before being hit himself. I just don't believe Trayvon was punched.

I've seen cases where teens who are totally innocent get shot by crazy homeowners, and this isn't looking like that to me. This is looking like two hair-trigger male personalities encountered each other, neither could manage to interact civilly, a physical fight broke out and when Zimmerman had sustained enough injuries to justify shooting the other combatant, he did.

That's how it looks to me.

So the 911 operator doesn't have a right to tell people what to do, yet a private person has a right to confront people just because he is self-appointed watch captain on the property? Seems like a very strange logic to me.

JeannaT
03-09-2012, 11:37 AM
So the 911 operator doesn't have a right to tell people what to do, yet a private person has a right to confront people just because he is self-appointed watch captain on the property? Seems like a very strange logic to me.

GZ doesn't have the right to tell Trayvon what to do.

He does have the right to interact with him in a civil way on the street, on private property.

I'm a little irritated at the media using the term "self-appointed". Crime watch captains ARE self-appointed. That's how you get to be one. You volunteer, and by concensus of the neighbors, you're it. He was listed in an article in the neighborhood newsletter as being the crime watch contact, so it's not like he just secretly self-appointed himself and everyone else was against it. He volunteered to fill this position in the neighborhood when the crime watch committee was formed after several property break ins.

angelmom
03-09-2012, 12:44 PM
GZ doesn't have the right to tell Trayvon what to do.

He does have the right to interact with him in a civil way on the street, on private property.

I'm a little irritated at the media using the term "self-appointed". Crime watch captains ARE self-appointed. That's how you get to be one. You volunteer, and by concensus of the neighbors, you're it. He was listed in an article in the neighborhood newsletter as being the crime watch contact, so it's not like he just secretly self-appointed himself and everyone else was against it. He volunteered to fill this position in the neighborhood when the crime watch committee was formed after several property break ins.

Yes, NW captains are volunteers and are a big help in deterring crime. But they are not cops or even security guards, and have no authority to detain someone.

Do we really believe that he politely asked Trayvon, "Hey. Who are you here visiting?" and Trayvon just started beating the hell out of him? I'm not buying that.

After being advised by the 911 operator to wait for LE, this guy obviously did something to frighten or upset Trayvon, and we will never know what because this guy has no incentive to tell the truth if it implicates him at all.

I'm not officially on the neighborhood watch, but I am a nosy neighbor who has called 911 before for issues in our neighborhood. I have asked the cable guy if I could help him when he was walking through my yard, and called the cable company to verify that he is supposed to be there.

But there is no way in hell I'd confront someone just for walking down the sidewalk. I wouldn't even get involved beyond calling 911 if they were breaking into a house where no one was home. The only way I would physically engage someone before LE got there is to prevent someone else from being harmed.

Zimmerman is completely to blame for this situation. Unless they can show that Trayvon was actually committing a crime and not just walking down the street being black, Zimmerman should be charged. You don't get to go start a fight with someone and then kill them because they fight back.

Lovejac
03-09-2012, 04:21 PM
Even if it escalated to a physical confrontation you have to ask yourself... did the shooter jump out of the car in an aggressive manner after Tray asked "What's your problem?" If someone was following me and after I verbally confronted them and they jumped out of the car... I'm fighting! Do you think the outcome would have been any different had Tray ran? He'd have been shot in the back, imo. The shooter had to have gotten out of the car for there to be a physical altercation. He should have never gotten out of the car. There is nothing that justifies him shooting this young boy. Nothing!

More details. When police arrived on the scene, Zimmerman appeared to have been rolling around on the ground and had a bloody nose and was bleeding from the back of his head, and he had been calling out for help.

Sounds very much like it could be self-defense. This wouldn't have happened had Zimmerman not attempted to follow Trayvon, but that doesn't justify a physical assault, IMHO.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/08/trayvon-martin-fla-teen-k_n_1332440.html

I tell my kids if anyone tries to grab you, you fight back and get away. Tray had NO WAY of knowing who this creep was who was following him in a car. I would have thought it was a pervert getting ready to grab me. I would have fought back too.

Zimmerman made a stupid decision. He called 911 to report something suspicious and was told to wait for LE to arrive but he didn't.

tlcya
03-09-2012, 04:49 PM
Here's my suspicion of how things went down.

Tray is walking along, heading back to the house is staying at.

CZ is driving along, armed, keeping an eye out for trouble in the gated community.

CZ spots Tray, an unfamiliar young AA male strolling through the darkness

CZ crawls along in the car trailing behind Tray

Tray senses his follower and surepticiously glances back trying to use his peripheral vision, possibly worried about being jumped, why else is someone rolling along slowy behind me, keeping pace. His hackles are now UP.

Finally, Tray turns and holds his arms wide palms up, probably defiant and cocky, hoping to scare off his unwanted stalker, and says "you got some kind of problem?!"

CZ then decides to confront this "suspicious" young man. He stops the car, steps out of the car and probably asks Tray who he is and what his business is in the neighborhood.

Tray, offended by this unknown person acting as if Tray has no right to be there, says something to the effect of "none of your damn business" or maybe "what's it to you?"

CZ then moves toward Tray, who is standing on the sidewalk.

Tray takes this as a threat of possible violence or attack coming his way. (as far as we know CZ is the agressor, at least in Tray's eyes) Tray decks the strange, confrontational man who is now coming towards him. They scuffle.

CZ pulls his weapon and shoots Tray.

I stick with my original opinion on this - CZ should not have been packing his gun, he should not have continued following Tray, per the 911 dispatcher's instructions, and lastly, he never should have confronted Tray.

From Tray's perpective, CZ could have been a threat.

From CZ's perspective, Tray was none. He was in a vehicle, he had reported his "suspicious" young AA male to authorities. There was no need for what came next. Zero.

tlcya
03-09-2012, 04:53 PM
IMO, unless Tray was suspended from school for threatening to beat the crap out of any neighborhood watch captains who confront him in gated communities he is visiting a resident of - its irrelevant.

CZ had no knowledge of this young man having been suspended from school and therefore, it is not a factor in whatever ocurred between CZ and Tray

FLmom777
03-09-2012, 04:56 PM
A few more details. It's not really clear who actually lived in the townhome in the gated community - this updated article says he and his father travelled there, to spend the week because Trayvon was suspended from school so he could "disconnect and get his priorities straight".

Complicated.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/08/2684419/shooting-mystery-miami-dade-teen.html

I can't link from my phone but local news reported that he was at his father's fiancee's home, and that he had been there numerous times. The family filed suit this morning wanting the 911 call released, in order to find out what exactly was said.

JeannaT
03-09-2012, 04:59 PM
IMO, unless Tray was suspended from school for threatening to beat the crap out of any neighborhood watch captains who confront him in gated communities he is visiting a resident of - its irrelevant.

CZ had no knowledge of this young man having been suspended from school and therefore, it is not a factor in whatever ocurred between CZ and Tray

It seems like a factor to me.

Depending on what the issue was that got him suspended, it helps fill in the gaps about whether he would act in an aggressive way with little provocation.

Matters a lot.

jjenny
03-09-2012, 05:00 PM
I think most people would be concerned if somebody was following them in the car. If GZ was told by 911 to wait for police I fail to see what would be the reason for him to get out of his car. I also think whether it's considered self-defense or not pretty much depends on what state it took place at. I very much doubt that in most states this kind of thing would be considered self-defense. But this is in FL so...

jjenny
03-09-2012, 05:02 PM
It seems like a factor to me.

Depending on what the issue was that got him suspended, it helps fill in the gaps about whether he would act in an aggressive way with little provocation.

Matters a lot.

If 911 told GZ to stay put there was no need for any provocation to happen here. I still have no idea as to what exactly was suspicious about the teenager. If teenager noticed being followed then he could have become concerned as most people would.

JeannaT
03-09-2012, 05:15 PM
Here's my suspicion of how things went down.

Tray is walking along, heading back to the house is staying at.

CZ is driving along, armed, keeping an eye out for trouble in the gated community.

CZ spots Tray, an unfamiliar young AA male strolling through the darkness

CZ crawls along in the car trailing behind Tray

Tray senses his follower and surepticiously glances back trying to use his peripheral vision, possibly worried about being jumped, why else is someone rolling along slowy behind me, keeping pace. His hackles are now UP.

Finally, Tray turns and holds his arms wide palms up, probably defiant and cocky, hoping to scare off his unwanted stalker, and says "you got some kind of problem?!"

CZ then decides to confront this "suspicious" young man. He stops the car, steps out of the car and probably asks Tray who he is and what his business is in the neighborhood.

Tray, offended by this unknown person acting as if Tray has no right to be there, says something to the effect of "none of your damn business" or maybe "what's it to you?"

CZ then moves toward Tray, who is standing on the sidewalk.

Tray takes this as a threat of possible violence or attack coming his way. (as far as we know CZ is the agressor, at least in Tray's eyes) Tray decks the strange, confrontational man who is now coming towards him. They scuffle.

CZ pulls his weapon and shoots Tray.

I stick with my original opinion on this - CZ should not have been packing his gun, he should not have continued following Tray, per the 911 dispatcher's instructions, and lastly, he never should have confronted Tray.

From Tray's perpective, CZ could have been a threat.

From CZ's perspective, Tray was none. He was in a vehicle, he had reported his "suspicious" young AA male to authorities. There was no need for what came next. Zero.

I think your scenario is probably exactly what happened, except it's not clear that Trayvon had any fight wounds whatsoever except the fatal shot, and CZ had at least two significant blows to the head.

I don't want to live in a world where healthy able bodied citizens see things that are suspicious to them in light of recent break ins, and they peek out from their curtains and call 911. Can you imagine a world like that? Where NO citizens try to take action to avert crime when something is going on? As a mother of three sons, I'm STILL completely okay with grown men in a neighborhood after dark asking what they're up to.

As an example, last summer we were in horrific fire danger - the state was burning and more fires began every day. I live on the side of a steep ravine, and if it caught fire we'd be engulfed in a matter of minutes. The woods were tinderbox dry. There is an area at the bottom of the ravine where teenage boys go to hang out, there's a strip of public property down there. It was a place to smoke marijuana, cigarettes, and light a little campfire. Often boys just went down there to hang out, and there is a rope swing. Last summer we did NOT hesitate to run the boys off even if what they were doing was perfectly legal, on the chance they would be smoking down there. I confronted groups of boys myself, and I know many others did too when they'd see boys headed to the trailhead. (No evidence that they were even going to go on the trail, much less light fires). "No sirs, go back where you came from, you're not going down into the ravine. If I see you going down in there, I'm calling the cops. Have a good day".

Works for me.

I don't think CZ had any right to do THAT - to tell someone walking on a side walk to go away - but he had every right to check him out. That's what keeps neighborhoods safe. Used to be, young people would submit to a small amount of questioning about what they were up to by adults.

I grew up on an air force base, and it was COMMON for men on the base to stop and question boys who didn't look like they belonged on the base - which is closed like a gated community. And the boys would tell who they were and where they lived, and if they didn't, they were taken to the guard post for them to figure out who they were.

And I'm fine with that too.

jjenny
03-09-2012, 05:22 PM
Maybe somebody can explain to me as to what exactly is suspicious about a teenager with an iced tea and skittles? If I just saw people on the sidewalk and call them in as suspicious I could be calling police all day long. What is it that this teenager was doing that was suspicious?

tlcya
03-09-2012, 05:26 PM
jjenny, I can only assume that either by appearance, wardrobe, behavior or race - he just didn't seem to "belong" there to the eye of Mr. Z

JeannaT
03-09-2012, 05:33 PM
Maybe somebody can explain to me as to what exactly is suspicious about a teenager with an iced tea and skittles? If I just saw people on the sidewalk and call them in as suspicious I could be calling police all day long. What is it that this teenager was doing that was suspicious?

We don't know what Trayvon was doing that looked suspicious. It might just be his race, or it might be that he stopped to admire a car and it looked like he was casing it in the dark, or who knows what seemed "suspicious".

Without hearing the 911 call, it's hard to tell. I wouldn't think that a man with a four year degree in criminal justice would have called a young black man who was walking purposefully along a sidewalk in the early evening "suspicious", but maybe.

FLmom777
03-09-2012, 05:38 PM
WFTV.com reports that gz was arrested in 2005 for battery on a police officer, but there is no record of what happened with that arrest. He sounds like a loose cannon to me.

jjenny
03-09-2012, 05:42 PM
Found a link.

"WFTV uncovered a picture that George Zimmerman took at the Orange County Jail in 2005 when he was arrested for battery on a law enforcement officer and resisting arrest with violence."

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/man-who-shot-killed-teen-sanford-neighborhood-has-/nLPgL/

JeannaT
03-09-2012, 05:43 PM
WFTV.com reports that gz was arrested in 2005 for battery on a police officer, but there is no record of what happened with that arrest. He sounds like a loose cannon to me.

Since the case was dismissed, it's possible it didn't happen. I don't think you usually get away with beating up cops. When I see "battery on a police officer" and then nothing comes of it and charges are dismissed, sounds to me . . well.

jjenny
03-09-2012, 06:14 PM
Since the case was dismissed, it's possible it didn't happen. I don't think you usually get away with beating up cops. When I see "battery on a police officer" and then nothing comes of it and charges are dismissed, sounds to me . . well.

Why was he arrested if nothing happened?

FLmom777
03-09-2012, 06:19 PM
Since the case was dismissed, it's possible it didn't happen. I don't think you usually get away with beating up cops. When I see "battery on a police officer" and then nothing comes of it and charges are dismissed, sounds to me . . well.

It doesn't take much to be charged with that. If the officer was reaching towards him and gz pushed his hand away, that is enough for an arrest on both the charges.

JeannaT
03-09-2012, 06:24 PM
It doesn't take much to be charged with that. If the officer was reaching towards him and gz pushed his hand away, that is enough for an arrest on both the charges.

Exactly. Not something you can make stick in court.

I wonder what the actual arrest was for? There's no indication of what the crime was he was being arrested for - apparently that wasn't prosecuted either. Although there's a resisting arrest charge, where's the charge for the crime he was initially being arrested for?

I have a picture in my head of George Z's behavior, and it seems like he's a mouthy hot head. And cops can be hot heads too, as can 17 year old boys, and they seem to have a way of finding each other.

thistle
03-09-2012, 06:27 PM
Although we haven't heard both sides of the story & never will, I call BS on this-I am totally in favor of a citizen's right to bear arms, but the proper use of a firearm is if you are attacked in your own home or in your vehicle. I see NO reason for a 'neighborhood watch' person to use a weapon, or even to confront someone they think looks 'suspicious', they need to turn this over to law enforcement, if they believe a crime is taking place. If not, they need to walk away...

MicciStella
03-09-2012, 07:11 PM
WFTV.com reports that gz was arrested in 2005 for battery on a police officer, but there is no record of what happened with that arrest. He sounds like a loose cannon to me.

And apparently that wasn't the only time he was in trouble...
I am just surprise in the first place that someone with not so good background is allowed to be neighborhood watchman and armed... In my opinion that only calls for trouble... In this case with a deadly end...

Just so sad

Micci

JeannaT
03-09-2012, 07:14 PM
So I went on Google Maps and researched Retreat at Twin Lakes. It's a condo complex with 263 units, the 3 bedroom 2 bath units sell in the neighborhood of 100K. It looks like a large apartment complex with a black metal gate out front. It's surrounded by other properties that look similar, maybe a little more upscale than the Retreat. Homeowner Assn fees are $130 per month. It seems that if someone was really interested in Crime Watch, they could learn what the people who lived there looked like and could recognize someone who didn't live there.

I couldn't find a convenience store within walking distance. (And I allowed for about 45 minutes walking distance each way). One article said Trayvon went to a 7 11, but there isn't a 711 within many miles according to the net. Has anyone else looked to see if they can trace his route? I wonder if he went into the main office and used a vending machine for the tea and skittles? I looked for quite awhile in all directions and there's nothing that looks to me like it could possibly be a convenience store.

Interestingly, there is a "neighborhood crime watch" sign displayed prominently at both entrances into the complex.

JeannaT
03-09-2012, 07:16 PM
And apparently that wasn't the only time he was in trouble...
I am just surprise in the first place that someone with not so good background is allowed to be neighborhood watchman and armed... In my opinion that only calls for trouble... In this case with a deadly end...

Just so sad

Micci

I don't know about another time he was in "trouble". As long as you haven't been convicted of a felony (he apparently hasn't, and hasn't even in fact been charged with one, just arrested for one and it was dropped) you can own a firearm.

MicciStella
03-09-2012, 08:01 PM
I don't know about another time he was in "trouble". As long as you haven't been convicted of a felony (he apparently hasn't, and hasn't even in fact been charged with one, just arrested for one and it was dropped) you can own a firearm.

The chief said the police have met with Zimmerman on two to three separate occasions, and that their investigation should be wrapped up this week. He said all of the evidence in the case will be delivered to the Seminole County State Attorney

From this link...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2012/03/08/family-of-trayvon-martin-_n_1332756.html

Lovejac
03-09-2012, 09:02 PM
the more I read about this the more I am disgusted that this family has to practically beg for justice for Trayvon's death!

This Zimmerman appears to me to be a hot head that likes to be in control. A hot head, wanna-be cop with a gun and now an innocent child is dead.

I am trying to use the KISS approach with this case.

1. Trayvon was a 17 year old boy walking alone in a neighborhood
2. A car with a man in it is following him
3. This man gets out of the car and approaches him
4. Trayvon has NO IDEA who this man is and what his intentions are with regards to his safety.

It is simple to me. People snatch kids off of the street all the time. If I were in this situation, even if Zimmerman told me he was the "neighborhood watch guy", I would do my best to fight him off.

MOO.

JeannaT
03-09-2012, 09:08 PM
The chief said the police have met with Zimmerman on two to three separate occasions, and that their investigation should be wrapped up this week. He said all of the evidence in the case will be delivered to the Seminole County State Attorney

From this link...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2012/03/08/family-of-trayvon-martin-_n_1332756.html

That appears to mean that after this shooting, they've interviewed him 2-3 times and will wrap up their investigation shortly.

I don't think if he had criminal involvement and they encountered him prior, they would refer to those incidents as "meetings".

It doesn't seem these meetings took place before the shooting.

JeannaT
03-09-2012, 09:14 PM
the more I read about this the more I am disgusted that this family has to practically beg for justice for Trayvon's death!

This Zimmerman appears to me to be a hot head that likes to be in control. A hot head, wanna-be cop with a gun and now an innocent child is dead.

I am trying to use the KISS approach with this case.

1. Trayvon was a 17 year old boy walking alone in a neighborhood
2. A car with a man in it is following him
3. This man gets out of the car and approaches him
4. Trayvon has NO IDEA who this man is and what his intentions are with regards to his safety.

It is simple to me. People snatch kids off of the street all the time. If I were in this situation, even if Zimmerman told me he was the "neighborhood watch guy", I would do my best to fight him off.

MOO.

I completely agree with your assessment of the situation. But at what point does this irritating cop wannabe have the right to fight for his life while he's having the smithereens beaten out of him by a kid he's irritated? I don't know about Trayvon "fighting him off". I truly don't believe GZ had personal contact with Travon first. Or even, really, ever. I could be wrong. Autopsy results would be interesting to see if Trayvon had any injuries from the "altercation" at all besides the gunshot wound. We don't know.

At what point does an annoying cop wannabe have the right to defend his life when his head is being smashed? That's the question here, IMHO.

I would dearly love to see the pic of GZ that the radio station has. Does he look like a really fit skinhead or does he look like an overweight puddingbutt? My guess is, the latter. If he looks like a fit skinhead, I'll change my tune here. I can see fighting for your life against a skinhead and smashing his head in if you feel threatened. I can't see beating a puddingbutt this way.

I still can't manage to find the route Trayvon took. It's really puzzling - where did he GO that night, and what route did he take to get back home? Was it through bushes and backyards?

Watching his parents' news conference was heartwrenching.

Lovejac
03-09-2012, 09:22 PM
I completely agree with your assessment of the situation. But at what point does this irritating cop wannabe have the right to fight for his life while he's having the smithereens beaten out of him by a kid he's irritated? I don't know about Trayvon "fighting him off". I truly don't believe GZ had personal contact with Travon first. Or even, really, ever. I could be wrong.

At what point does an annoying cop wannabe have the right to defend his life when his head is being smashed? That's the question here, IMHO.

I would dearly love to see the pic of him that the radio station has. Does he look like a really fit skinhead or does he look like an overweight puddingbutt? My guess is, the latter. If he looks like a fit skinhead, I'll change my tune here. I can see fighting for your life against a skinhead and smashing his head in if you feel threatened. I can't see beating a puddingbutt this way.

I still can't manage to find the route Trayvon took. It's really puzzling - where did he GO that night, and what route did he take to get back home? Was it through bushes and backyards?

Watching his parents' news conference was heartwrenching.

I understand what you're saying. All we have seen is a head shot of Zimmerman from some years ago.

I am axiously awaiting the release of the 911 call and hoping it provides additional info.

JeannaT
03-09-2012, 09:32 PM
WOW. I went to WFTV right now, and they've posted the picture of George Zimmerman. I completely withdraw my "devils advocate" defense of him today.

I'm done defending him. A picture is worth a thousand words, I've spent too many words assuming he might be innocent and acting in good faith here. There's an aura about his expression that looks like "I want to kill somebody".

He looks STRIKINGLY similar to the shooter here in Austin who chased a poor boy down the street and shot him to death in the back while he tried to flee.

RoseRed
03-09-2012, 09:58 PM
Why hasn't this man been arrested??? I just don't understand this!


"He was a good kid," Crump said in an interview, adding that the family would issue a call for the Watch captain's arrest at a news conference on Thursday. "On his way home, a Neighborhood Watch loose cannon shot and killed him."

More at link: http://news.yahoo.com/family-florida-boy-killed-neighborhood-watch-seeks-arrest-044537742.html

We always hear this here in Chicago but they always turn out to be gang members and violent .

LolaMoon08
03-09-2012, 10:14 PM
We always hear this here in Chicago but they always turn out to be gang members and violent .

No offense, but why would you say that without any kind of proof whatsoever? Who was the one arrested for violence against a police officer? Zimmerman was! Not Tray!

mrsu
03-09-2012, 10:32 PM
I really can't believe someone would defend Zimmerman's actions. You do not get out of your car and confront someone...George PROVOKED him...and when that person likely defends themself...shoot them and claim self defense. That is ridiculous! Very sad that we will only ever know one side of the story since the other person is DEAD. Had Zimmerman not made the CHOICE to get out of his car and confront Trayvon like some hothead baffoon, he would have been home in 2 minutes and all of this would have been prevented. For all we know, after Trayvon asked "what's your problem", Zimmerman could have jumped out of the car shouting racial slurs. Surely that wouldn't be beyond him if he would call in a black man walking down the sidewalk as suspicious, IMO! I too would like to know what he was doing that was so suspicious.

This case makes me so angry!! I hate to even say it, but I think we all know what would have happened had Trayvon been white and Zimmerman black. Disgusting.

mrsu
03-09-2012, 10:45 PM
Anyone have a link to the photo of George? I can't find it.

jjenny
03-09-2012, 10:48 PM
I don't see the photo on the website either. They say in the video that they got the photo but where is it?

LolaMoon08
03-09-2012, 10:49 PM
I really can't believe someone would defend Zimmerman's actions. You do not get out of your car and confront someone...George PROVOKED him...and when that person likely defends themself...shoot them and claim self defense. That is ridiculous! Very sad that we will only ever know one side of the story since the other person is DEAD. Had Zimmerman not made the CHOICE to get out of his car and confront Trayvon, he would have been home in 2 minutes and all of this would have been prevented. For all we know, after Trayvon asked "what's your problem", Zimmerman could have jumped out of the car shouting racial slurs. Surely that wouldn't be beyond him if he would call in a black man walking down the sidewalk as suspicious, IMO! I too would like to know what he was doing that was so suspicious.

This case makes me so angry!! I hate to even say it, but I think we all know what would have happened had Trayvon been white and Zimmerman black. Disgusting.

BBM I'll say it! If Zimmerman was black and Tray was a white 17-year-old kid walking home from the store with purple hair and piercings all over his body, the black Zimmerman would have been arrested on the spot. No question.

The suspension of a white Tray would not have even been an issue. The media would not have even reported on it. They're trying to make it not look as bad as what it really is and I think we all know what it really is. Tray was murdered because he was black.

csziggy
03-09-2012, 10:56 PM
I still can't manage to find the route Trayvon took. It's really puzzling - where did he GO that night, and what route did he take to get back home? Was it through bushes and backyards?

This news report shows a route from the convenience store to the apartment complex, starting just after 1:00 into the video:
http://news.yahoo.com/family-florida-boy-killed-neighborhood-watch-seeks-arrest-044537742.html

Looking at Google Maps, on Rinehart Road directly in front of the Sam's Club there is a 7-Eleven. It is about a mile from there to the apartment complex. It is not a typical convenience store but in a strip mall. The logo is on a round tower on the corner of the building.

JeannaT
03-10-2012, 09:25 AM
BBM I'll say it! If Zimmerman was black and Tray was a white 17-year-old kid walking home from the store with purple hair and piercings all over his body, the black Zimmerman would have been arrested on the spot. No question.

The suspension of a white Tray would not have even been an issue. The media would not have even reported on it. They're trying to make it not look as bad as what it really is and I think we all know what it really is. Tray was murdered because he was black.

Did you follow the Channon Christian/Chris Newsome murder trials? A young white couple brutally murdered and tortured by 3 black men and a black woman. The media outside Tennessee wouldn't even touch the story. Would NOT report on it although the state of Tennessee followed it very carefully and televised the trials live. When questioned, national media said the story was too incendiary to carry because of the racial implications.

If all the people involved had been the same race, this story was so provocative that it would have headlined CNN for weeks.

JeannaT
03-10-2012, 09:31 AM
Anyone have a link to the photo of George? I can't find it.

They've removed the photo from the article. I wonder if they got the wrong guy? GZ is reported to be 28, this guy looked about 40 to me - a heavy hispanic looking man with a scowl.

SuziQ
03-10-2012, 09:40 AM
I saw his picture in the video attached to the article. HTH.

JeannaT
03-10-2012, 09:40 AM
I found the picture that they ran on the website in another article. It's a mugshot from his earlier arrest when he was about 22. He looks older to me than that, but guess not.

http://opnateye.com/?p=319

angelmom
03-10-2012, 10:13 AM
I found the picture that they ran on the website in another article. It's a mugshot from his earlier arrest when he was about 22. He looks older to me than that, but guess not.

http://opnateye.com/?p=319

Neither of the photos in this article help support GZ's side of the story. Just sayin' if we're judging people by their appearance. :angel:

JeannaT
03-10-2012, 10:20 AM
This news report shows a route from the convenience store to the apartment complex, starting just after 1:00 into the video:
http://news.yahoo.com/family-florida-boy-killed-neighborhood-watch-seeks-arrest-044537742.html

Looking at Google Maps, on Rinehart Road directly in front of the Sam's Club there is a 7-Eleven. It is about a mile from there to the apartment complex. It is not a typical convenience store but in a strip mall. The logo is on a round tower on the corner of the building.

Thanks for finding that.

That distance in the dark in the cold rain? For a can of iced tea? For real?

I am more curious than ever what it was that George Z saw that made him suspicious.

angelmom
03-10-2012, 11:20 AM
Thanks for finding that.

That distance in the dark in the cold rain? For a can of iced tea? For real?

I am more curious than ever what it was that George Z saw that made him suspicious.


I don't know about dark and rainy. I know one article referred to a "light drizzle" but weather underground shows 0" precipitation in Sanford that day.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSFB/2012/2/26/DailyHistory.html?req_city=Sanford&req_state=FL&req_statename=Florida

Also, at 7 pm the sun had only set in the last half hour and it was still not technically "dark."

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=867&month=2&year=2012&obj=sun&afl=-13&day=1

I have a 15yo and a 17yo son, and neither of them would bat an eye at walking up to the convenience store around that time of night, even in a very light drizzle, for a Coke and candy. A mile to them is nothing - less than 10 minutes. ETA: especially if they had had several hours/days of "family time" and wanted a little privacy to make a phone call.

JeannaT
03-10-2012, 11:31 AM
I don't know about dark and rainy. I know one article referred to a "light drizzle" but weather underground shows 0" precipitation in Sanford that day.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSFB/2012/2/26/DailyHistory.html?req_city=Sanford&req_state=FL&req_statename=Florida

Also, at 7 pm the sun had only set in the last half hour and it was still not technically "dark."

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=867&month=2&year=2012&obj=sun&afl=-13&day=1

I have a 15yo and a 17yo son, and neither of them would bat an eye at walking up to the convenience store around that time of night, even in a very light drizzle, for a Coke and candy. A mile to them is nothing - less than 10 minutes. ETA: especially if they had had several hours/days of "family time" and wanted a little privacy to make a phone call.

I guess my kids don't like ice tea that much. ;D I can totally see one of them going out for a walk to have a phone chat with a girlfriend, though. They often leave the house for a phone call, and there's nothing sinister about that. I'm just noting, that my kids wouldn't put that much effort into getting a can of tea if that's the sole purpose of the errand.

It was the lawyer (Crump I think) who said Tayvon was bundled up in a hoodie because it was cold and raining and he was trying to stay dry.

JeannaT
03-10-2012, 12:14 PM
Activists planning a protest outside Sanford Police department at 1 p.m. today.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-black-panther-protest-trayvon-martin-20120310,0,5436098.story

daisy7
03-10-2012, 12:32 PM
This news report shows a route from the convenience store to the apartment complex, starting just after 1:00 into the video:
http://news.yahoo.com/family-florida-boy-killed-neighborhood-watch-seeks-arrest-044537742.html

Looking at Google Maps, on Rinehart Road directly in front of the Sam's Club there is a 7-Eleven. It is about a mile from there to the apartment complex. It is not a typical convenience store but in a strip mall. The logo is on a round tower on the corner of the building.

TY for posting this. The vid. said that 2 mins. after Zimmerman called 911, 6 neighbors called to report a fight and a gunshot. 2 minutes??!!

And, it looks like this took place on a sidewalk that was not accessible to a car. So, Zimmerman must have gotten out of his car and walk up the path to go confront Trayvon.

IMO, Zimmerman is clearly the aggressor in this horrible tragedy and I don't understand why he hasn't been arrested.

daisy7
03-10-2012, 12:37 PM
Zimmerman gave police a statement that he stepped out of his car and he and Martin fought. He said he was “yelling for someone to help, but no one would help me.”

Zimmerman had a bloody nose, wet grass stains on his red jacket and was bleeding head wound. Martin was pronounced dead at 7:30 p.m.

“We don’t know what led up to that fight,’’ Lee said.

On the night of the shooting, Zimmerman was initially handcuffed, placed in the back of a squad car and later released, but not before police confiscated his gun.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/08/2684419/shooting-mystery-miami-dade-teen.html#storylink=cpy

Snipped and BBM. Thank goodness they took his gun. I don't understand why they haven't released the 911 calls, yet. The "ongoing investigation" reason doesn't make sense with the Sunshine laws.

daisy7
03-10-2012, 12:42 PM
Activists planning a protest outside Sanford Police department at 1 p.m. today.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-black-panther-protest-trayvon-martin-20120310,0,5436098.story

The article says Zimmerman called the non-emergency number, and I don't know if they record those calls. But, if he thought Trayvon was such a threat, why didn't he call 911?

jjenny
03-10-2012, 01:03 PM
The article says Zimmerman called the non-emergency number, and I don't know if they record those calls. But, if he thought Trayvon was such a threat, why didn't he call 911?

I am pretty sure they got the recording, they just haven't released it to the public.

JeannaT
03-10-2012, 01:08 PM
The article says Zimmerman called the non-emergency number, and I don't know if they record those calls. But, if he thought Trayvon was such a threat, why didn't he call 911?

They have recordings of others who called 911, and apparently you can hear the shots on some of them. I don't know about the 311 call, but the officer sounded like he had heard it.

mrsu
03-10-2012, 02:14 PM
I guess my kids don't like ice tea that much. ;D I can totally see one of them going out for a walk to have a phone chat with a girlfriend, though. They often leave the house for a phone call, and there's nothing sinister about that. I'm just noting, that my kids wouldn't put that much effort into getting a can of tea if that's the sole purpose of the errand.

It was the lawyer (Crump I think) who said Tayvon was bundled up in a hoodie because it was cold and raining and he was trying to stay dry.

I thought he went to the convenience store to get his brother some Skittles? Maybe he grabbed some tea too.

angelmom
03-10-2012, 03:08 PM
I don't understand why they haven't released the 911 calls, yet. The "ongoing investigation" reason doesn't make sense with the Sunshine laws.

Hey, good point. We definitely heard Casey/Cindy's 911 calls when it was still ongoing.

nao
03-10-2012, 03:28 PM
JMO Tayvon could of been a thugerish looking white or hispanic or any race, basicly any swaggering teen - GZ would wanna play the same role.
GZ did not see Trayvon as a threat, just some kid he did'nt like the look of.GZ figured he could give the kid a good talking 'down' to and then look all cool and in control when the real cops got there.
I think it would be better to define the roles of these volenteer wanna be cops than turn it into a race thing.
I also think GZ should be in jail ----that he is not, i find disrespectful.

JeannaT
03-10-2012, 05:19 PM
Activists planning a protest outside Sanford Police department at 1 p.m. today.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/os-black-panther-protest-trayvon-martin-20120310,0,5436098.story

Article has been updated. Four people attended the protest in front of the police department.

AnaTeresa
03-11-2012, 12:10 PM
Article has been updated. Four people attended the protest in front of the police department.

Are you kidding - only four!? How are people not bothered by this?

JeannaT
03-11-2012, 01:25 PM
Are you kidding - only four!? How are people not bothered by this?

I don't know either, Ana, except maybe there would have been more of an outpouring if it weren't the new Black Panthers. There were 1000 at his funeral, it's not like no one cares, but maybe there was a fear of violence that kept people away from the protest.

Either way it sounds like the investigation will be wrapped up this week and the 911 calls released, which was one of the things the protest was about.

JeannaT
03-11-2012, 04:22 PM
This article posted today says two dozen demonstrators, not four, were at the rally yesterday.

Not much else new.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/11/2688369/family-in-neighborhood-watch-death.html

daisy7
03-11-2012, 04:36 PM
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/man-who-shot-killed-teen-sanford-neighborhood-has-/nLPgL/

includes a video. article says he called to report a "suspicious black man." Is that how he actually worded it in the call?

JeannaT
03-11-2012, 04:47 PM
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/man-who-shot-killed-teen-sanford-neighborhood-has-/nLPgL/

includes a video. article says he called to report a "suspicious black man." Is that how he actually worded it in the call?

I'm guessing that's the reporter's wording. I don't think the public has any information about what was in the call except what the LE spokesperson said.

MicciStella
03-11-2012, 10:39 PM
I found the picture that they ran on the website in another article. It's a mugshot from his earlier arrest when he was about 22. He looks older to me than that, but guess not.

http://opnateye.com/?p=319

Oh my God... Seriously, looking at GZ, I would be totally scared of him... I would leave the side of the road or the place right away...

Looking at Trayvon I have to say he just seems to be a normal nice teenager....

So sad...

Micci

daisy7
03-12-2012, 09:17 AM
MIAMI GARDENS (CBS4) – On the steps of the Miami Gardens church where Trayvon Martin’s funeral was held one week ago, his family and friends returned to demand justice Sunday night.

The Miami teen was killed in Sanford, near Orlando, two weeks ago. At the time Martin was vacationing with his father.

“Not only did I lose a son, I lost a dear friend,” said Tracy Martin, Trayvon’s father. “He’ll be sadly missed and I made a promise that I won’t stop until justice is brought for my son.”

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/03/12/family-of-miami-teen-killed-in-sanford-demand-answers/

Rob774
03-12-2012, 12:16 PM
Hello, i'm new, first post. I would not be surprised if first degree murder gets tossed at this guy once they seriously bring him in. To me to observe, follow him, get out your car and approach, all screams premeditation to me. If he doesn't do A... then B does not happen. He had time to think about his actions first.

Similiar to that pharmacy owner that got robbed. He was in the right to shoot the would be robbers. Once he shot the kid and the kid lay dying on the floor, he did not have the right to execute him while he lay face down. They found that guy guilty of 1st degree murder.

angelmom
03-12-2012, 12:21 PM
Hello, i'm new, first post. I would not be surprised if first degree murder gets tossed at this guy once they seriously bring him in. To me to observe, follow him, get out your car and approach, all screams premeditation to me. If he doesn't do A... then B does not happen. He had time to think about his actions first.

Similiar to that pharmacy owner that got robbed. He was in the right to shoot the would be robbers. Once he shot the kid and the kid lay dying on the floor, he did not have the right to execute him while he lay face down. They found that guy guilty of 1st degree murder.

Welcome, Rob. I agree with you that GZ's actions completely set this CRIME into motion. I really hope he does not get away with murder.

tlcya
03-12-2012, 12:23 PM
:welcome: Rob774

Rob774
03-12-2012, 12:27 PM
Welcome, Rob. I agree with you that GZ's actions completely set this CRIME into motion. I really hope he does not get away with murder.

Thanks.

Do you think GZ is somehow connected? Like his family are connected politically or something. You have the earlier arrest of his thrown out, and now you have this??? Something's shady with the fact that this guy seems untouchable.

And why did he dissapear, if he really thinks his actions are just? This is 2012, this is the type of stuff folks got away with pre-civil rights era. I mean, i don't have a criminal record either just started ready to get my masters in criminal justice, does that mean i can go home outside now, pick a fight with a stranger, kill him and scream self defense... they'll just have to take my word for it if there are no witnesses.

Rob774
03-12-2012, 12:28 PM
:welcome: Rob774

Thanks Tlcox, i'm one of those folks that have been in the background for awhile, and finally joined up.

JeannaT
03-12-2012, 12:45 PM
Hello, i'm new, first post. I would not be surprised if first degree murder gets tossed at this guy once they seriously bring him in. To me to observe, follow him, get out your car and approach, all screams premeditation to me. If he doesn't do A... then B does not happen. He had time to think about his actions first.

Similiar to that pharmacy owner that got robbed. He was in the right to shoot the would be robbers. Once he shot the kid and the kid lay dying on the floor, he did not have the right to execute him while he lay face down. They found that guy guilty of 1st degree murder.

Welcome Rob!

I'm not thinking this was premeditated. It's not clear he would have been this bold if he didn't have a gun to back him up, but due to the rules against posting rumors here <modsnip>.

Due to the sunshine laws, I think this will all be much clearer soon.

JeannaT
03-12-2012, 02:47 PM
LE to hold press conference at 4 p.m. today - that's in about an hour and 15 minutes from now for those in different times zones.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-case-20120312,0,3967780.story

tlcya
03-12-2012, 02:55 PM
I think we are about to get at least some of our questions answered. Thanks for the heads up Jeanna, wilol try to pop in for an update.

LolaMoon08
03-12-2012, 03:13 PM
Does anyone know if the fiance of Tray's dad is black or white? I do have a valid reason for asking this, but I don't want to speculate without knowing for sure?

JeannaT
03-12-2012, 03:19 PM
Does anyone know if the fiance of Tray's dad is black or white? I do have a valid reason for asking this, but I don't want to speculate without knowing for sure?

I think the fiance was the woman at the first press conference with the glasses standing in the background with her arm around Trayvon's brother. She is either light skinned black or mixed race.

LolaMoon08
03-12-2012, 03:27 PM
I think the fiance was the woman at the first press conference with the glasses standing in the background with her arm around Travon's brother. She is either light skinned black or mixed race.

Okay, thanks. I was going to say that I know that some people still feel very strongly against interracial dating and was wondering if Zimmerman was one of those people and kept an extra eye out on their house/street/whatever?

I'm ready for this news conference and I am really ready to hear the 911 tape. I want some answers!

katydid23
03-12-2012, 03:31 PM
Am watching a story on CNN right now about this. The newsreporter said that he talked with the Police Captain abojut the 911 calls, and the captain said that the 911 tape 'seemed to back up Zimmerman's story that he felt threatened.' Apparently there is a loud verbal exchange between them before the shot is fired.

LolaMoon08
03-12-2012, 04:02 PM
Am watching a story on CNN right now about this. The newsreporter said that he talked with the Police Captain abojut the 911 calls, and the captain said that the 911 tape 'seemed to back up Zimmerman's story that he felt threatened.' Apparently there is a loud verbal exchange between them before the shot is fired.

Let us hear the 911 tape and let us decide what is justified and what is not justified!

Velouria
03-12-2012, 04:17 PM
Listening to the Sanford Police presser now. Whole lot of nothing, IMO. :mad: Basically saying they're planning to finish the investigation by the end of the day and will forward it to the State's Atty. (We already knew that.) Lots of mentions of how fair and impartial the Sanford Police are.

Stated that since Zimmerman has asserted self defense, they have to have probable cause to dispute his claim.

I'm beginning to understand how FCA is walking around free today.

No Stone Unturned
03-12-2012, 04:27 PM
At first I was outraged. This seemed a case where the young man was singled out for his race and shot down for being "suspicious."

Then reports came that police thought the killing was justified and the shooter only shot in self-defense.

I placed myself on the fence until more details came out.

Then reports surfaced that GZ does have a prior record of a felony (attacking police). Now I am back to thinking this was not self-defense!

LolaMoon08
03-12-2012, 04:29 PM
Sounds to me like we're never going to know exactly what happened because Zimmerman was the only one who can say what happened and he is claiming self defense. It appears that the eye witnesses only witnessed what happened after initial contact was made, which appears to be Tray getting the better of the person who was following/harrassing him.

It also appears that Zimmerman claimed to LE that he had a sqeaky clean record and LE simply believed him without even checking until later on... after they had already told Tray's father that he had no previous record.

Something stinks to high heaven here. Way too much deflection. Way too much secrecy. 911 tapes are never withheld like this!

angelmom
03-12-2012, 05:36 PM
I'm just going to go ahead and say that if Tray had been a blonde girl, we would be applauding her for how hard she fought against the creepy guy following her in the neighborhood.

Reader
03-12-2012, 06:23 PM
Am watching a story on CNN right now about this. The newsreporter said that he talked with the Police Captain abojut the 911 calls, and the captain said that the 911 tape 'seemed to back up Zimmerman's story that he felt threatened.' Apparently there is a loud verbal exchange between them before the shot is fired.

But did the boy ever touch him?

How could this big guy actually feel threatened by this boy for just arguing with him, even if loudly?

So, if you follow and harrass someone who looks out of place to you without cause (except race) and they challenge you for it and argue with you, you can kill them?

JeannaT
03-12-2012, 07:13 PM
But did the boy ever touch him?

How could this big guy actually feel threatened by this boy for just arguing with him, even if loudly?

So, if you follow and harrass someone who looks out of place to you without cause (except race) and they challenge you for it and argue with you, you can kill them?

GZ had blood coming out of his nose and from the back of his head. Time will tell what the extend of his injuries were.

It's not clear that Trayvon had any injuries at all until the gunshot wound.

jjenny
03-12-2012, 07:18 PM
I'm just going to go ahead and say that if Tray had been a blonde girl, we would be applauding her for how hard she fought against the creepy guy following her in the neighborhood.

I am not sure what being blonde has to do with anything. Otherwise, I agree-if this boy was a female I doubt GZ would be getting away with "self-defense" argument.

daisy7
03-12-2012, 07:28 PM
So, if they are gonna hand the case to the SA tomorrow, does that mean the investigation will be completed and they will release the 911 calls?

MicciStella
03-12-2012, 08:13 PM
I am still wondering why so many details are hold back... No one wants to say what injuries Trayvon had beside the gun shot .... Almost like LE is trying to hide something.... And I am surprised how fast the funeral was... I would have thought it will take a while... And last but not least a wild guess idea, and only my opinion, but what about self inflicted injuries from GZ's side to make it look like self defense .. . He wouldn't be the first one to do so....

Micci

BuzzieCat
03-12-2012, 09:00 PM
I am kind of concerned about the idea of GZ working in a law enforcement capacity. At the very least, it kind of sounds like he tried to be a "hero" ("save" the neighborhood from this 17 YO) instead of just waiting for the police to arrive. I worry that even if he didn't mean any harm, his judgment is not so hot. What will he do if he becomes a full-fledged officer of the law?

JeannaT
03-12-2012, 09:55 PM
I am still wondering why so many details are hold back... No one wants to say what injuries Trayvon had beside the gun shot .... Almost like LE is trying to hide something.... And I am surprised how fast the funeral was... I would have thought it will take a while... And last but not least a wild guess idea, and only my opinion, but what about self inflicted injuries from GZ's side to make it look like self defense .. . He wouldn't be the first one to do so....

Micci

I agree that way too much - on both sides - is being kept secret.

We don't know much about GZ at all, and his pic is 6 years old. I don't think ANYONE looks the same from 22 to 28, it's a mystery what he looked like the night of the event. I do think it's much more likely he looked even fatter and more out of shape than he did at 22.

Also, the family of Trayvon is hiding when they release pics of him as a child and not what he must have looked like the night of the event. That football pic - wearing the Bulldogs shirt - was from middle school. He was pre-puberty at that point. Why release pictures that are NOT what someone would have looked like at the time, when the claim is he looked suspicious? Of course that innocent little middle schooler doesn't look suspicious, but that's not what Trayvon looked like. If all the facts came to light, I refuse to believe this young man (in Texas, 17 year olds are adults, although not in his state) was a pacifist. Judging from the fact that he was suspended from school at the time and his family refuses to disclose why (if it were excessive tardies or carving his name in a desk, it seems they would have been quick to reveal that) he was suspended at the time.

I get sick to my stomach when I read of the frequent cases of nutcase men killing young people for stepping on their property, while the victims are trying to escape any encounter. I don't believe this is the case here. At all. I think it's quite possible during the scuffle that followed a verbal altercation, GZ had real reason to fear for his life.

This is COMPLICATED, and the public isn't being helped by keeping all these questions in secret. To diffuse this, the public needs to know: Who is GZ? Who is Trayvon? Release the 911 calls in their entirety and any evidence they have that this was in self-defense, including conditions of GZ and Trayvon, and any witness statements.

jjenny
03-12-2012, 11:37 PM
Well if we want to know about GZ:

"George Zimmerman has not been charged in the Feb. 26 shooting of Trayvon Martin, 17, who was walking home from a convenience store in Sanford, Fla., near Orlando. Zimmerman, who patrolled the Retreat at Twin Lakes development in his own car, had been called aggressive in earlier complaints to the local police and the homeowner's association, according to a homeowner who spoke on the condition of anonymity."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html?ref=mostpopular

jjenny
03-12-2012, 11:39 PM
I am kind of concerned about the idea of GZ working in a law enforcement capacity. At the very least, it kind of sounds like he tried to be a "hero" ("save" the neighborhood from this 17 YO) instead of just waiting for the police to arrive. I worry that even if he didn't mean any harm, his judgment is not so hot. What will he do if he becomes a full-fledged officer of the law?

I don't think he will be working in any LE capacity if they charge him. Even if only two people know what exactly happened, and one of those two is dead, that is pretty much true for many cases where victim is dead. They got his 911 call as evidence to set up his state of mind and what his instructions were from 911 operator. He can argue self-defense at trial.

JeannaT
03-13-2012, 12:11 AM
jjenny I completely understand what you're saying, but I think this becomes more confusing all the time.

Neither of these men are passifists. Each is looking for a fight, from what I can tell from the information available. It was a tragedy that they met each other.

Statistically - it also seems unlikely that Trayvon would have survived to middle age.

MicciStella
03-13-2012, 12:41 AM
Well if we want to know about GZ:

"George Zimmerman has not been charged in the Feb. 26 shooting of Trayvon Martin, 17, who was walking home from a convenience store in Sanford, Fla., near Orlando. Zimmerman, who patrolled the Retreat at Twin Lakes development in his own car, had been called aggressive in earlier complaints to the local police and the homeowner's association, according to a homeowner who spoke on the condition of anonymity."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html?ref=mostpopular

Oh my... This is going to boil... Apparently they were not happy with GZ in the community... One standing up against him is leaded out (what I personally think stinks)... Someone else says she doesnt know about complaints.... But when you read the article it is pretty obvious that pretty much everyone is scared of GZ and I am sure not only since this sad happening... They can't even find or get hold of GZ right now.... In my opinion this guy is guilty and has something to hide ..... Otherwise why his hideout....

Micci

Reader
03-13-2012, 01:13 AM
GZ had blood coming out of his nose and from the back of his head. Time will tell what the extend of his injuries were.

It's not clear that Trayvon had any injuries at all until the gunshot wound.

I've read most of the articles and have not seen this information about GZ's injuries before...is there another link with this? TIA

However, from what I have read, it seems that GZ was told in the 911 call to not approach the person and wait for the LE to arrive. Then, he went ahead and got out of his vehicle and approached the boy and some kind of argument, fight occurred.

To me, that makes him the aggressor...maybe the boy just pushed him away and he fell on the sidewalk and hit his head...who knows..but he started it and it was unnecessary and against LE advice.

I just read that the case has been sent to the SA now. Also says GZ has gotten death threats:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/12/2690445/sanford-chief-no-charges-yet-in.html

MicciStella
03-13-2012, 02:18 AM
I agree that way too much - on both sides - is being kept secret.

We don't know much about GZ at all, and his pic is 6 years old. I don't think ANYONE looks the same from 22 to 28, it's a mystery what he looked like the night of the event. I do think it's much more likely he looked even fatter and more out of shape than he did at 22..

I agree JeannaT but I doubt it very very much that GZ's brutal expression and eyes much will have changed...

Good night everyone for today

Micci

BuzzieCat
03-13-2012, 02:58 AM
I don't think he will be working in any LE capacity if they charge him. Even if only two people know what exactly happened, and one of those two is dead, that is pretty much true for many cases where victim is dead. They got his 911 call as evidence to set up his state of mind and what his instructions were from 911 operator. He can argue self-defense at trial.
I just wonder if he will be charged. If not, he will be free to do whatever he likes, I assume. Maybe Tray had a terrible temper and it really was self defense, but GZ shouldn't have confronted him in the first place, unless there's some mitigating circumstance that hasn't been released.

angelmom
03-13-2012, 06:48 AM
I am kind of concerned about the idea of GZ working in a law enforcement capacity. At the very least, it kind of sounds like he tried to be a "hero" ("save" the neighborhood from this 17 YO) instead of just waiting for the police to arrive. I worry that even if he didn't mean any harm, his judgment is not so hot. What will he do if he becomes a full-fledged officer of the law?

Well if we want to know about GZ:

"George Zimmerman has not been charged in the Feb. 26 shooting of Trayvon Martin, 17, who was walking home from a convenience store in Sanford, Fla., near Orlando. Zimmerman, who patrolled the Retreat at Twin Lakes development in his own car, had been called aggressive in earlier complaints to the local police and the homeowner's association, according to a homeowner who spoke on the condition of anonymity."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html?ref=mostpopular

This brings to mind the cop-wanna-bees who are so dangerous. Makes me wonder if he's already been turned down when applying for an LE position.

Frankly, the comments about Tray being dangerous or a thug are unfounded. We have seen NOTHING to indicate that Tray did anything but walk down the street. I'll believe what's on the 911 call when I hear it, and until then I'm chalking GZ's injuries up to what he deserved when he confronted Tray against the advice of the 911 operator.

If he had stayed in his car like they told him, everyone would still be alive right now.

Rob774
03-13-2012, 07:55 AM
jjenny I completely understand what you're saying, but I think this becomes more confusing all the time.

Neither of these men are passifists. Each is looking for a fight, from what I can tell from the information available. It was a tragedy that they met each other.

Statistically - it also seems unlikely that Trayvon would have survived to middle age.

I'm sorry, i hate to be "that guy" but i can't see how you can say anything mentioined above... about the victim, without knowing anything about him. All we know right now, is that he was armed with a bag of Skittles and Ice Tea. If that warrants death, then there will be a lot of dead kids out there. Statistically? Well you can use statistics to bend an argument anywhere you want to. If you were GZ's defense lawyer, would that be you stance? "Well basically my client just carried out what would have eventually happened to the victim anyway, so in essense, we are saving Tray's family money from having to support him further." Also above you mentioned why Tray's family hasn't released any photos of him of the night of the shooting, i don't know about you, but at 17, my family didn't take daily snapshots of me. Yes, there are pictures of him in his middle school aged, Wolverines uniform, but there are current pictures of him in his Bulldogs uniform.

Plus even if he was wearing a black hoodie, with army boots on, and shades, he still appeared to be doing nothing that warranted him to being bothered by GZ. LIke i said before, Tray is dead right now, squarely on the basis that GZ went out of his way to confront him, i fail to see in this country how you can confront someone, and then fall back on "self defense." Mark my words, despite Florida's "stand your ground law" when this is all over... 1st degree murder.

SoBeCzar
03-13-2012, 08:16 AM
I found the picture that they ran on the website in another article. It's a mugshot from his earlier arrest when he was about 22. He looks older to me than that, but guess not.

http://opnateye.com/?p=319


I found this at the end of that article:


Despite these charges, Zimmerman was working as a neighborhood watch “commander” apparently with permission to shoot and kill “suspicious” people. Sanford Police say they are not hiding the 911 tape, but say they cannot release it because it is part of an “ongoing investigation,” but also say the tape justifies the murder.
Never heard of anyone having permission to shoot and kill suspicious persons. This does not sound right.

Rob774
03-13-2012, 08:37 AM
I found this at the end of that article:


Despite these charges, Zimmerman was working as a neighborhood watch “commander” apparently with permission to shoot and kill “suspicious” people. Sanford Police say they are not hiding the 911 tape, but say they cannot release it because it is part of an “ongoing investigation,” but also say the tape justifies the murder.
Never heard of anyone having permission to shoot and kill suspicious persons. This does not sound right.

Great find!!!

I'll have to see a copy of the bylaws of this property, before i take the words of this article as gospel. Because if this is the case, all the Twin Lakes place did is make themselves libel in the eventual civil suit.

jjenny
03-13-2012, 09:08 AM
Permission to shoot suspicious people-that clearly is a sarcastic statement. Obviously he didn't have "permission to shoot and kill suspicious people."

jjenny
03-13-2012, 09:10 AM
Great find!!!

I'll have to see a copy of the bylaws of this property, before i take the words of this article as gospel. Because if this is the case, all the Twin Lakes place did is make themselves libel in the eventual civil suit.

That was sarcasm (posted on a blog) not something from bylaws.

SuziQ
03-13-2012, 10:10 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html?ref=mostpopular

(snip)
Benjamin Crump, the Martin family’s attorney, filed a public records lawsuit last week seeking the 911 recordings for the night of the shooting. Crump said people with access to the tapes told him Zimmerman made a comment about Martin’s race during the call and said he had no intention of letting the youth get away because, “they always get away.”

SoBeCzar
03-13-2012, 10:13 AM
That was sarcasm (posted on a blog) not something from bylaws.

I see. I knew that sounded wrong.

Velouria
03-13-2012, 11:23 AM
This brings to mind the cop-wanna-bees who are so dangerous. Makes me wonder if he's already been turned down when applying for an LE position.

Frankly, the comments about Tray being dangerous or a thug are unfounded. We have seen NOTHING to indicate that Tray did anything but walk down the street. I'll believe what's on the 911 call when I hear it, and until then I'm chalking GZ's injuries up to what he deserved when he confronted Tray against the advice of the 911 operator.

If he had stayed in his car like they told him, everyone would still be alive right now.

BBM

Thank you!

Since when is it self-defense to go out of one's way confront an unarmed individual for merely walking down the street, shooting them when they dare to resist or question? GZ had no legal authority to detain, even within the bounds of this gated community.

I'm hoping that the SA is gifted with more reasoning ability than the Sanford Police Dept appears to have. Their "logic" involving the applicable laws truly escapes me.

daisy7
03-13-2012, 11:29 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html?ref=mostpopular

(snip)
Benjamin Crump, the Martin family’s attorney, filed a public records lawsuit last week seeking the 911 recordings for the night of the shooting. Crump said people with access to the tapes told him Zimmerman made a comment about Martin’s race during the call and said he had no intention of letting the youth get away because, “they always get away.”

Oh, my. WHEN are we gonna get the calls??!! If LE had nothing to hide, they would release the darn calls!

nursebeeme
03-13-2012, 11:44 AM
jjenny I completely understand what you're saying, but I think this becomes more confusing all the time.

Neither of these men are passifists. Each is looking for a fight, from what I can tell from the information available. It was a tragedy that they met each other.

Statistically - it also seems unlikely that Trayvon would have survived to middle age.

Trayvon was a victim. A child victim. And he could have lived to a ripe old age if he hadn't met this guy on his way to get skittles and snacks:moo:

JeannaT
03-13-2012, 12:45 PM
Trayvon was a victim. A child victim. And he could have lived to a ripe old age if he hadn't met this guy on his way to get skittles and snacks:moo:

We don't know that. We don't know that he was a victim - he may very well have attacked GZ.

I'm still waiting to hear what he was suspended for, which we may never know, but it may shed some light on what happened that night.

Salem
03-13-2012, 02:12 PM
Zimmerman is Captain of a neighborhood watch? Why the heck is he even carrying a gun? Florida guns laws must be pretty lax?

Salem

Reader
03-13-2012, 03:13 PM
Zimmerman is Captain of a neighborhood watch? Why the heck is he even carrying a gun? Florida guns laws must be pretty lax?

Salem

The Fl. legislature in their infinite wisdom recently, I think this last session, passed a law that allows anyone with a concealed weapon permit to carry the weapon on the street and even in the workplace, and to use it if they feel 'threatened'.

This may be why the local police has not filed charges, although I fail to see how GZ being the aggressor and starting the confrontation would pass the smell test of being 'threatened' by a kid carrying candy and tea.

Reader
03-13-2012, 03:22 PM
<modsnip>

I agree...whatever happened in his school has nothing to do with this incident and certainly provides no excuse for his killing by a man who, against advice from LE, got out of his vehicle and started the confrontation. There are no statistics, whatever they show about a general population, which would provide an excuse for this particular killing of an unarmed child either.

Salem
03-13-2012, 03:59 PM
We don't know that. We don't know that he was a victim - he may very well have attacked GZ.

I'm still waiting to hear what he was suspended for, which we may never know, but it may shed some light on what happened that night.

At this point, he is a victim. It appears that MSM is telling us that GZ acted against the advice of LE and confronted the teenager. And now the teen has died. That makes him a victim for this thread. Until we get something different from either LE or MSM, we will treat him like a victim.

Thanks,

Salem

Velouria
03-13-2012, 04:08 PM
Orlando Watch Shooting Probe Reveals Questionable Police Conduct
By MATT GUTMAN (http://abcnews.go.com/author/matt_gutman) (@mattgutmanABC (http://twitter.com/mattgutmanABC)) and SENI TIENABESO ORLANDO, Fla., March 13, 2012

ABC News has uncovered questionable police conduct in the investigation of the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teenager by a white neighborhood watch captain in Florida, including the alleged "correction" of at least one eyewitness' account.
<snip>

Read full article at link:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T1-n7PWDmSo


But after the shooting, a source inside the police department told ABC News that a narcotics detective and not a homicide detective first approached Zimmerman. The detective pepppered Zimmerman with questions, the source said, rather than allow Zimmerman to tell his story. Questions can lead a witness, the source said.
Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help.
The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.


And for those wondering about Trayvon's suspension:

Trayvon Martin had no arrest record or disciplinary action for violence as a student in North Miami's Krop High School.

tlcya
03-13-2012, 04:40 PM
I found this at the end of that article:


Despite these charges, Zimmerman was working as a neighborhood watch “commander” apparently with permission to shoot and kill “suspicious” people. Sanford Police say they are not hiding the 911 tape, but say they cannot release it because it is part of an “ongoing investigation,” but also say the tape justifies the murder.
Never heard of anyone having permission to shoot and kill suspicious persons. This does not sound right.

I think the permission to shoot to kill suspicious people sentence was sacrasm on the part of the reporter writing the article, and not factual information as to any actual license to kill.

angelmom
03-13-2012, 04:54 PM
jjenny I completely understand what you're saying, but I think this becomes more confusing all the time.

Neither of these men are passifists. Each is looking for a fight, from what I can tell from the information available. It was a tragedy that they met each other.

Statistically - it also seems unlikely that Trayvon would have survived to middle age.

What statistics are these? We have heard not one thing to indicate that Tray is at risk. Are you telling me that every kid who gets suspended in HS will probably be gunned down in a life of crime before he hits 35? Because right now, that's all we know about Tray, other than that he was unarmed.

Where is the evidence that Tray was looking for a fight? We have heard not one thing to indicate that he has a hot temper or was in trouble for fighting.

We don't know that. We don't know that he was a victim - he may very well have attacked GZ.

I'm still waiting to hear what he was suspended for, which we may never know, but it may shed some light on what happened that night.

He may have fought back, but even GZ never said that Tray attacked him or started it. Tray is a victim. FGS, GZ was carrying a semi-automatic weapon to patrol a suburban neighborhood! That right there is a HUGE red flag.

MicciStella
03-13-2012, 06:16 PM
I just hope that is not going to end up as coverup from LE...

I deeply hope for justice

Micci

jjenny
03-13-2012, 06:19 PM
It's starting to look a little shady to me. Why would police officer correct a witness who believed it was the teenager screaming for help and not GZ? At that time police were supposed to collect statements from witnesses and correcting the witness seems like very poor investigative practices. How did officer know who was providing accurate information? Seems like it was decided to be "self-defense" right there on the spot and then whatever might have contradicted that idea was made to fit.

"The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136

daisy7
03-13-2012, 06:28 PM
The Fl. legislature in their infinite wisdom recently, I think this last session, passed a law that allows anyone with a concealed weapon permit to carry the weapon on the street and even in the workplace, and to use it if they feel 'threatened'.

This may be why the local police has not filed charges, although I fail to see how GZ being the aggressor and starting the confrontation would pass the smell test of being 'threatened' by a kid carrying candy and tea.

There was a new law passed last year or the year before, which allows people with concealed gun permits to keep guns in their cars in places that otherwise would have disallowed them (i.e., city parks through local statues or businesses through their own rules). I've looked for a link and can't find one (sorry!), but I remember all the debate about it when it happened.

Here is the FL law about using deadly force:

Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?

A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:

Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.

Using or displaying a handgun in any other circumstances could result in your conviction for crimes such as improper exhibition of a firearm, manslaughter, or worse.

Example of the kind of attack that will not justify defending yourself with deadly force: Two neighbors got into a fight, and one of them tried to hit the other by swinging a garden hose. The neighbor who was being attacked with the hose shot the other in the chest. The court upheld his conviction for aggravated battery with a firearm, because an attack with a garden hose is not the kind of violent assault that justifies responding with deadly force.

A cool head and even temper can keep handgun carriers out of trouble. You should never carry a gun into a situation where you might get angry.

(snip)

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html

RANCH
03-13-2012, 06:30 PM
It's starting to look a little shady to me. Why would police officer correct a witness who believed it was the teenager screaming for help and not GZ? At that time police were supposed to collect statements from witnesses and correcting the witness seems like very poor investigative practices. How did officer know who was providing accurate information? Seems like it was decided to be "self-defense" right there on the spot and then whatever might have contradicted that idea was made to fit.

"The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136

It's definitely strange for a cop to say that to the witness. If the police arrived after the shooting, how in the world could one of them correct this witness's statement?

MicciStella
03-13-2012, 06:34 PM
And the officer showing up on scene first basically gave GZ a free pass with not taking his statement but more or less made the case with asking questions...
Even we here know better than to do so...

And I think we really need the calls because when there is the gun shot heard, which is mentioned in the article, there would be really clear to hear GZ yelling for help... If he did... And correcting a witness?.... Wow... Are they trying to fabricate a case here?....

Praying for justice...

Micci

jjenny
03-13-2012, 06:38 PM
I think it's certain somebody yelled for help. But unclear which one -GZ or the boy. One witness believed it was the boy who yelled for help. For whatever reason, it appears the police officer took it upon himself to correct this witness, so I presume that ended up in the police report. At this point they would need voice analysis if any screams for help are heard on tape.

RANCH
03-13-2012, 06:45 PM
I think it's certain somebody yelled for help. But unclear which one -GZ or the boy. One witness believed it was the boy who yelled for help. For whatever reason, it appears the police officer took it upon himself to correct this witness, so I presume that ended up in the police report. At this point they would need voice analysis if any screams for help are heard on tape.
If the police officer put in his/her report that they "corrected" a witness statement, he or she is going to be in some big trouble.

jjenny
03-13-2012, 06:48 PM
If the police officer put in his/her report that they "corrected" a witness statement, he or she is going to be in some big trouble.

No, the witness claims police officer corrected her. I am guessing the report might say witnessed claimed she heard GZ screaming for help (even though witness believed she heard teenager screaming for help) without any mention of "corrections."

RANCH
03-13-2012, 06:54 PM
No, the witness claims police officer corrected her. I am guessing the report might say witnessed claimed she heard GZ screaming for help (even though witness believed she heard teenager screaming for help) without any mention of "corrections."

Thanks. I guess we'll find out when the 911 tapes and police reports are released.

daisy7
03-13-2012, 06:57 PM
Thanks. I guess we'll find out when the 911 tapes and police reports are released.

IF they are ever released! That they are not releasing them is beyond questionable to me with the Sunshine laws.

jjenny
03-13-2012, 06:58 PM
IF they are ever released! That they are not releasing them is beyond questionable to me with the Sunshine laws.

Well I have no doubt they will be released. If not voluntarily then through lawsuits.

daisy7
03-13-2012, 07:03 PM
Well I have no doubt they will be released. If not voluntarily then through lawsuits.

Agreed. But, it shouldn't take a lawsuit to get them released.

Sooner Fan#1
03-13-2012, 07:49 PM
Daisy 7, I don't know about Florida gun laws, but I have a concealed carry permit here in Oklahoma and I can carry mine anywhere in my purse, anywhere it isn't posted "no firearms." Also here in Oklahoma we are about to pass an open carry law. (which IMO is a big mistake.) It's already passed the house and headed for the senate. :eek:

OKLAHOMA CITY--Law abiding citizens of Oklahoma who want to publicly carry a pistol on their hip or in a shoulder holster may do so under a bill overwhelmingly approved on Wednesday by the state House of Representatives.

The bill, which passed 85 to 9, will now go to the Oklahoma state Senate, where Representative Steve Martin, the Republican who sponsored the measure, said he believes it will be approved and then signed into law by Republican Governor Mary Fallin.

LolaMoon08
03-13-2012, 07:54 PM
Zimmerman has to have some "connections" somewhere because this is just unreal?? Nothing sounds right? These reporters need to dig into who this guy is! Something's up! A witness tells LE that it was Tray who was screaming for help and then the officer corrects her (how would he know?) that it was actually Zimmerman screaming for help? He wasn't there?!?!

LolaMoon08
03-13-2012, 07:59 PM
Also, during the news conference yesterday, I believe it was the sheriff or chief who stated that there is a time lapse between the time Zimmerman hung up and the confrontation? This leads me to believe that the shot was not caught on the call Zimmerman made? Why is it being reported that the 911 call makes it seem justified?

We need that 911 call! There isn't any way they can tamper with it, is there? I'm just so confused about this that I don't know what to think about what is going on?

jjenny
03-13-2012, 08:00 PM
The shot is caught on the neighbor's 911 calls, not GZ's. GZ called first to report "suspicious" person. Later on neighbors called 911 to report a fight. As far as I gather, GZ called 911 to report a suspicious person and was told to wait for police. But he apparently didn't wait. Some sort of fight ensured, and neighbors called 911.

LolaMoon08
03-13-2012, 08:02 PM
The shot is caught on the neighbor's 911 calls, not GZ's. GZ called first to report "suspicious" person. Later on neighbors called 911 to report a fight.

Oh, okay!

ETA: So basically, the neighbor who called 911 about the fight was only seeing what happened after Zimmerman got out of the car and confronted Tray? He didn't witness what happened to cause the confrontation?

JeannaT
03-13-2012, 08:15 PM
Oh, okay!

ETA: So basically, the neighbor who called 911 about the fight was only seeing what happened after Zimmerman got out of the car and confronted Tray? He didn't witness what happened to cause the confrontation?

As I understand it, no one actually saw what happened. I could be wrong. The previous media said neighbors called about hearing a fight. The way LE is wording it, they don't have any independent confirmation of Zimmerman's account of what happened besides people who heard a loud fight, and then gunshots. It doesn't seem there's a single visual witness, or it seems this whole thing would have been cleared up one way or the other much more quickly.

jjenny
03-13-2012, 08:17 PM
As I understand it, no one actually saw what happened. I could be wrong. The previous media said neighbors called about hearing a fight. The way LE is wording it, they don't have any independent confirmation of Zimmerman's account of what happened besides people who heard a loud fight, and then gunshots. It doesn't seem there's a single visual witness, or it seems this whole thing would have been cleared up one way or the other much more quickly.

Yes, that's what it looks like (at least as far as we know). The neighbors didn't actually see the whole scenario unfolding (at least from the beginning).

daisy7
03-13-2012, 09:10 PM
Also, during the news conference yesterday, I believe it was the sheriff or chief who stated that there is a time lapse between the time Zimmerman hung up and the confrontation? This leads me to believe that the shot was not caught on the call Zimmerman made? Why is it being reported that the 911 call makes it seem justified?

We need that 911 call! There isn't any way they can tamper with it, is there? I'm just so confused about this that I don't know what to think about what is going on?

There is a link upthread that the first 911 call was 2 mins. after Zimmerman called LE. I don't know how accurate this is, with them not releasing the calls!!

Lovejac
03-13-2012, 10:33 PM
Good heavens! This case stinks, and someone is trying to cover up something BIG TIME!

I hope that reporter keeps digging and digging and digging. IMO this dude is wound way too tight and needs to be stopped before anyone else gets hurt.

Trayvon, a 17 year old boy, walking to the store for ice tea and some Skittles for his little brother. I am so sorry this happened to him and his family.

Has anyone come forward to speak on behalf of or in support of GZ? I mean, except for LE <insert sarcasm here>

MicciStella
03-13-2012, 11:24 PM
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-martin-sanford-shooting-20120313,0,7946966.story

jjenny
03-13-2012, 11:34 PM
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-martin-sanford-shooting-20120313,0,7946966.story

So GZ went into a diversion program after his arrest. I really don't understand why "stand your ground" law applies in this case. It was reported GZ was in his car, he got out of that car despite being told by 911 operator not to do that, and then apparently went after the teenager. GZ was not in his home and apparently was not in his car either. What ground was GZ standing?

mrsu
03-14-2012, 12:00 AM
Also, during the news conference yesterday, I believe it was the sheriff or chief who stated that there is a time lapse between the time Zimmerman hung up and the confrontation? This leads me to believe that the shot was not caught on the call Zimmerman made? Why is it being reported that the 911 call makes it seem justified?

We need that 911 call! There isn't any way they can tamper with it, is there? I'm just so confused about this that I don't know what to think about what is going on?

When I was reading FB posts a few days ago, I came across something that said GZ actually called 911 from his apartment before he even left to confront Tray....which would be very questionable. Obviously, just a *rumor* and I didn't post at the time, but now with this news conference....has me wondering. Hmmmmmm.....

JeannaT
03-14-2012, 12:08 AM
I'm not sure either, JJ, except that this whole Condo complex is private property and George was the official rep for the HOA at that time to keep a crime watch. Watching the video that accompanied this article, as the interviewee states, this was a perfect storm. There had been several acts of vandalism by young men very recently fitting Trayvon's description. I really feel for Trayvon's parents, this is awful.

But I keep picturing how this happened. In my observation, men who are carrying concealed guns, who are trying to stop and apprehend others who they believe are criminals don't first engage in hand to hand combat. They don't. They do verbal warnings, and posturing, and then if that gets out of hand they draw their gun to make their point more strongly. They don't attempt a physical assault and then rely, as a back up, on their gun. Especially if they're kind of a fat weak guy.

And I do have folks in my neighborhood who have a concealed carry license. They don't get into a fist fight as a first attempt to make their point. I have known one of them to be assaulted and after several punches to the head they shot and killed, and I strongly sense this is what happened here.

I can only visualize George Z engaged Trayvon verbally, and Trayvon attacked George as much as he would tolerate, and then George drew his gun and shot after he was badly injured and couldn't fight back.

I guess I live in a whitebread suburban neighborhood, and I AM a crime watch captain myself, and this is my experience. Although I'm a woman and I certainly don't carry a gun. i just watch. For what it's worth. Men who carry don't lead with a physical punching match. They go from verbal to pulling the gun as a threat. They never have bloody knuckles. And I would be interested in whether GZ had any bruises whatsoever on his knuckles.

My guess is, no. Only bleeding from his nose and head from a serious assault.

jjenny
03-14-2012, 12:25 AM
When I was reading FB posts a few days ago, I came across something that said GZ actually called 911 from his apartment before he even left to confront Tray....which would be very questionable. Obviously, just a *rumor* and I didn't post at the time, but now with this news conference....has me wondering. Hmmmmmm.....

I am pretty sure he called from his car. I don't see anything in the news conference to suggest otherwise.

mrsu
03-14-2012, 12:33 AM
http://yourblackworld.net/2012/03/black-news/investigation-uncovers-witness-tampering-by-police-in-trayvon-martin-murder-case/

mrsu
03-14-2012, 12:36 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1340358.html?ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false#sb=1421669,b=facebook

George Zimmerman Neighbors Complained About Aggressive Tactics Before Trayvon Martin Killing

mrsu
03-14-2012, 12:47 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/13/trayvon-martin-sanford-state-attorney_n_1343223.html

Trayvon Martin Case Sent To State Attorney's Office Amid Growing Tension, Questions About Police Probe

nao
03-14-2012, 07:59 AM
http://www.masoncountydailynews.com/news/national-news/26015-florida-watch-shooting-probe-reveals-questionable-police-conduct

Quote
A dispatcher told Zimmerman to wait for a police cruiser, and not leave his vehicle. But about a minute later, he left his car wearing a red sweatshirt and pursued Martin on foot between two rows of townhouses -- about 70 yards from where the teen was going.

Witnesses told ABC News a fist fight broke out and at one point Zimmerman, who outweighed Martin by more than 100 pounds, was on the ground and that Martin was on top. end Quote

So how did GZ introduce himself "hey stop i'm a pretend cop/ vigilante" ??
GZ a big guy, he wanted a confrontation- its inevitable if you chase someone down and they don't know what or who you are. I'd of run, and i'd be flipping out and fighting back, its survival instinct.

Teens wear hoodies, they swagger, they got attatude. I was a total yob at that age, and i'm white and female. I even vandalized a few few things, i grew up i got over it.
Trayvon did absolutly nothing wrong, GZ is a fool with a gun and there are plenty of those.
It is the way the police have handled it - i find unbelievable, disrespectful.

It was'nt a group of kids - just one kid with candy. And GZ could'nt even deal with a child without using his gun, GZ's pathetic.

I don't think this situation will end quietly, RIP Trayvon , you'll be remember by many.

Belinda
03-14-2012, 09:07 AM
I am really angry over this case. It seems clear that the police are covering for Zimmerman. Why, I don't know. Trayvon did nothing wrong. Nothing at all. Now he is dead because some nutjob thought he was Mr. Cool. If there is no indictment in this case, it is going to cause quite an uproar. I think they know that by now.

daisy7
03-14-2012, 10:01 AM
Trayvon Martin’s family deserves answers, and so does a community rightfully outraged in the aftermath of his killing.

How can the 17-year-old Miami teenager, who was simply walking back to the townhouse he was visiting in the central Florida town of Sanford, end up shot dead with no consequences for his killer?

As facts unravel — much too slowly in this tragic case garnering national attention for its racial profile and questionable self-defense allegation — everything is beginning to indicate that Martin and his family deserve compassion and justice.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/13/2692045/unarmed-teens-killing-in-sanford.html#storylink=cpy

jjenny
03-14-2012, 10:06 AM
I think if it were almost in any state other than FL, GZ would have been charged. Let him use "self-defense" argument at trial. I think some of these "stand your ground" laws go to far. GZ was in his car, he didn't have to get out of it and go after anyone.

Velouria
03-14-2012, 10:48 AM
Given the reports of alleged witness tampering and other "irregularities", I'm not sure how the SA is supposed to make a fair and accurate assessment of how to proceed with the case based on the SPD's investigation.

I think it's time the Feds were called in on this one.

Rob774
03-14-2012, 12:01 PM
NAACP is now involved. I hate that it had to come to this.
http://sandrarose.com/2012/03/sharpton-naacp-pastors-call-for-investigation-into-vigilante-shooting-death-of-trayvon-martin/

But they just didn't think this would go away.

LolaMoon08
03-14-2012, 12:55 PM
NAACP is now involved. I hate that it had to come to this.
http://sandrarose.com/2012/03/sharpton-naacp-pastors-call-for-investigation-into-vigilante-shooting-death-of-trayvon-martin/

But they just didn't think this would go away.

And is shouldn't just go away. I'm glad the NAACP is moving in on this. If a case ever warranted them getting involved, it is this one. It is everything this organization is about/should be about. An innocent kid is dead. The person who caused his death, for whatever reason, walks free? Something is just really wrong with this case? Police "correcting" a witnesses account of what she saw/heard? Who does that?

I think we all, no matter what our race, should stand up for Tray. If the police can treat Tray's family/case like this... they can do it to us too! I hate that it has to be about race, but really, it is? I think what we can do as a country, of all races, is stand with Tray's family in this.

angelmom
03-14-2012, 02:02 PM
And is shouldn't just go away. I'm glad the NAACP is moving in on this. If a case ever warranted them getting involved, it is this one. It is everything this organization is about/should be about. An innocent kid is dead. The person who caused his death, for whatever reason, walks free? Something is just really wrong with this case? Police "correcting" a witnesses account of what she saw/heard? Who does that?

I think we all, no matter what our race, should stand up for Tray. If the police can treat Tray's family/case like this... they can do it to us too! I hate that it has to be about race, but really, it is? I think what we can do as a country, of all races, is stand with Tray's family in this.

You are totally right that it shouldn't go away, and that people of all races should stand with Tray's family. I think what Rob may have meant and what I felt when I read about Al Sharpton and the NAACP getting involved, is dismay that they are involved, that this is when things usually start to go downhill fast. Sharpton = publicity fest and NAACP usually = gross overreaction.

Now in this case, I don't think the outrage is an overreaction, but some people will equate Sharpton's history with this case and assume that it is an overreaction. Tray deserves better than that.

Quite frankly, Al Sharpton showing up in Sanford gives me the same feeling as Rush Limbaugh weighing in on the health care/birth control issue. I just want to say to them, "Thanks anyway, but please stop helping."

A 17yo boy is dead for no reason, and this shouldn't be turned into a circus. Unfortunately the clowns are on their way to town.

MicciStella
03-14-2012, 04:27 PM
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-live-chat-20120314,0,5943997.htmlstory

I just hope that will bring something good and justice in the end ...

Micci

Rob774
03-14-2012, 07:46 PM
LolaMoon and AngelMom are actually both right. I did mean that this should of been handled without outside pressure from any organization. In my regards to the NaccP, especially Sharpton, outisders, who were once sympathetic to a cause, often give the "rolls eyes" notion, once he gets involved. I'm black, and i know he doesnt speak for all black people, i just think that sometimes he gets into too many cases, thus losing a lot of his credibility. This is a case, where he's needed. There have been other cases, far less serious, where i don't think him, nor Jesse need to have been involved. But Zimmerman made this a race issue the moment he informed 911, There's a suspicious black..."

But back to the issue at hand, if the Pope himself has to get involved... i hope we get to the real facts of the case. Did Tray attack GZ? Was Tray the one screaming for help? Or was in indeed Zimmerman? Did the police pressure and steer witness testimoney? I think we are only at the start of this circus.

Lovejac
03-14-2012, 08:00 PM
NAACP is now involved. I hate that it had to come to this.
http://sandrarose.com/2012/03/sharpton-naacp-pastors-call-for-investigation-into-vigilante-shooting-death-of-trayvon-martin/

But they just didn't think this would go away.

This news is bittersweet to me. IMO this is definitely an NAACP cause. I just feel like, in the past, NAACP has gotten involved in cases that didn't really warrant their involvement IMO. And, there is always the 'circus' atmosphere that seems to follow.

That being said, I am so angered by this case that I welcome ANY help that will get to the truth.

Godspeed to the NAACP. Justice for Trayvon and the people who loved him, is all I want.

mrsu
03-14-2012, 08:41 PM
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/witness-sanford-police-blew-us-teen-slaying/nLSqk/

Witness: Sanford police "Blew us off" in teen slaying

However, witness Mary Cutcher said she knew the truth. Cutcher said police only took a two or three sentence statement from her, but it took about 30 minutes to tell WFTV the story.

"The cries stopped as soon as the gun went off, so I know it was the little boy," Cutcher said.

According to a partial police report, Cutcher is one of six witnesses that Sanford police took a statement from.

Cutcher said it was short, and police never questioned her in detail until after she repeatedly reached out to them.

"Blew us off, and I called him back again and I said, "I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling,'" Cutcher said.

Cutcher said she believes whatever confrontation there was, it ended before they got to her backyard.

She also said she believes Zimmerman continued to chase Martin as he tried to get home.

mrsu
03-14-2012, 08:42 PM
www.change.org/petitions/prosecute-the-killer-of-17-year-old-trayvon-martin

Prosecute the killer of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin

Lovejac
03-14-2012, 08:52 PM
www.change.org/petitions/prosecute-the-killer-of-17-year-old-trayvon-martin

Prosecute the killer of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin

Thank you for the link. I was just about to search for it.

Lovejac
03-14-2012, 08:57 PM
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/witness-sanford-police-blew-us-teen-slaying/nLSqk/

Witness: Sanford police "Blew us off" in teen slaying

Thank you Ms Cutcher for coming forward. You will not be dismissed now.

I am anxiously anticipating an arrest of GZ very soon.

Rob774
03-14-2012, 09:14 PM
He stalked, hunted, confronted, assaulted and executed this child. For what reason??? Epidermal hue color? Serioiusly, in 2012? An 86 YO, i can believe, cause he may have ole school mentality. An educated 26 YO, you'd think if he if had racists thoughts, it wouldn't manifest into actions.

Like I said when the first day i posted here... 1st Degree Murder.

daisy7
03-14-2012, 09:37 PM
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/witness-sanford-police-blew-us-teen-slaying/nLSqk/

Witness: Sanford police "Blew us off" in teen slaying

Has anyone seen a link to the police report referenced in the vid.? Love seeing Bill Schaeffer reporting that he thinks Zimmerman should have been arrested.

daisy7
03-14-2012, 09:40 PM
I think if it were almost in any state other than FL, GZ would have been charged. Let him use "self-defense" argument at trial. I think some of these "stand your ground" laws go to far. GZ was in his car, he didn't have to get out of it and go after anyone.

While I don't agree with many of the FL laws about guns, I think the issue is with the Sanford PD and not our state laws. JMO.

rossva
03-14-2012, 09:58 PM
BBM
Sanford Police Chief Billy Lee said there is no evidence to dispute self-appointed neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman's assertion that he shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin out of self-defense.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136


I'm not sure either, JJ, except that this whole Condo complex is private property and George was the official rep for the HOA at that time to keep a crime watch.

RANCH
03-14-2012, 10:17 PM
At the end of this WFTV.com article about this case two groups are mentioned. The New Black Militia and the New Black Panthers.

WFTV also found out that the New Black Militia and New Black Panther groups are planning to protest at the Sanford Police Department next week.

I can find some information on the New Black Panthers, but nothing on the New Black Militia. Does anyone know anything about the New Black Militia? Maybe their a local group of limited size.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/witness-sanford-police-blew-us-teen-slaying/nLSqk/

LolaMoon08
03-14-2012, 10:41 PM
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/witness-sanford-police-blew-us-teen-slaying/nLSqk/

Witness: Sanford police "Blew us off" in teen slaying

It just gets worse and worse!! What is going on??

RANCH
03-14-2012, 10:43 PM
Here's an interesting article from the Sun-Sentinel that talks about the New Black Panthers protest.

SANFORD — Members of the New Black Panther Party gathered outside Sanford police headquarters today to put pressure on authorities who have yet to charge a neighborhood watch volunteer in the fatal shooting of a Miami teenager late last month.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-black-panther-protest-trayvon-martin-20120310,0,1905865.story

angelmom
03-14-2012, 10:51 PM
I think if it were almost in any state other than FL, GZ would have been charged. Let him use "self-defense" argument at trial. I think some of these "stand your ground" laws go to far. GZ was in his car, he didn't have to get out of it and go after anyone.

I agree with Daisy that this is a problem with the PD not the law.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/witness-sanford-police-blew-us-teen-slaying/nLSqk/


WFTV legal analyst Bill Sheaffer reviewed the statute and said that if Zimmerman was told by 911 to not confront Martin and did anyway, the statute is not on his side.

"The use of deadly force in this case was unlawful and a valid arrest could have been made," Sheaffer said.

Sheaffer also said that ultimately an arrest could be, and likely should be made, and then the state would decide if the charges stick.

"Under the facts, it is above the discretion for Sanford not to affect on arrest and then send it to the State Attorney's Office," said Sheaffer.

LolaMoon08
03-14-2012, 10:51 PM
Here's an interesting article from the Sun-Sentinel that talks about the New Black Panthers protest.



http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-black-panther-protest-trayvon-martin-20120310,0,1905865.story


I think they should be protesting outside the State Attorney's Office? Isn't that who is going to make a decision about whether or not charges will be filed?

jjenny
03-14-2012, 10:54 PM
While I don't agree with many of the FL laws about guns, I think the issue is with the Sanford PD and not our state laws. JMO.

Police claim its because of these self-defense laws they have not arrested GZ.

jjenny
03-14-2012, 10:55 PM
I agree with Daisy that this is a problem with the PD not the law.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/witness-sanford-police-blew-us-teen-slaying/nLSqk/

I guess it depends on how one interprets the law.

RANCH
03-14-2012, 10:55 PM
I think they should be protesting outside the State Attorney's Office? Isn't that who is going to make a decision about whether or not charges will be filed?

I believe your right, but they may be trying to send a message to the police dept.

Sanford resident Rose Casey joined the activists, saying the relationship between police and the black community has long been strained.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-black-panther-protest-trayvon-martin-20120310,0,1905865.story

jjenny
03-14-2012, 10:56 PM
It just gets worse and worse!! What is going on??

The witness thinks it was the teenager screaming, not GZ.

daisy7
03-14-2012, 11:00 PM
Police claim its because of these self-defense laws they have not arrested GZ.

They stated (paraphrasing) that he claimed self-defense and that they couldn't charge him unless they found evidence it wasn't. Please direct me to a FL statute that says this (the castle doctrine statute does not apply in this case).

jjenny
03-14-2012, 11:03 PM
They stated (paraphrasing) that he claimed self-defense and that they couldn't charge him unless they found evidence it wasn't. Please direct me to a FL statute that says this (the castle doctrine statute does not apply in this case).

I am going by what police are claiming. I never thought what they are saying about this being self-defense made much sense, but that's what they have been saying.

LolaMoon08
03-14-2012, 11:05 PM
I believe your right, but they may be trying to send a message to the police dept.



http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-black-panther-protest-trayvon-martin-20120310,0,1905865.story

I understand. This case is just hitting me extra hard. I don't understand any of it? I have a 17-year-old niece that lives in a gated community. Oh, she can be mouthy when she wants to be! She even got sent home from school one day for having pink in her hair. She was almost suspended once for kicking a boy who grabbed her butt (we never told her, but we were super proud of her for that :floorlaugh:). I can't imagine her simply walking down the sidewalk in her neighborhood being followed. She would be so scared, for one. But I know if she was confronted by someone like Tray was, she would fight as much as she was physically able to. That's what she has been taught to do. To be shot and killed for protecting yourself against an aggressive **extreme modslip** breaks my heart.

LolaMoon08
03-14-2012, 11:07 PM
I am going by what police are claiming. I never thought what they are saying about this being self-defense made much sense, but that's what they have been saying.

I know what they have been saying and you are 100% correct! None of it makes any sense. If I had the time off, I would drive up to Sanford and march with the Black Panthers myself. I'd be the short white girl!

daisy7
03-14-2012, 11:13 PM
I am going by what police are claiming. I never thought what they are saying about this being self-defense made much sense, but that's what they have been saying.

Yep, it doesn't make sense at all! And, AFAIK, there is nothing in the FL statutes that supports them not arresting Zimmerman.

RANCH
03-14-2012, 11:25 PM
I understand. This case is just hitting me extra hard. I don't understand any of it? I have a 17-year-old niece that lives in a gated community. Oh, she can be mouthy when she wants to be! She even got sent home from school one day for having pink in her hair. She was almost suspended once for kicking a boy who grabbed her butt (we never told her, but we were super proud of her for that :floorlaugh:). I can't imagine her simply walking down the sidewalk in her neighborhood being followed. She would be so scared, for one. But I know if she was confronted by someone like Tray was, she would fight as much as she was physically able to. That's what she has been taught to do. To be shot and killed for protecting yourself against an aggressive **extreme modslip** breaks my heart.

BBM
I don't understand what happened either. With the limited amount of official information that has been released it's hard to say at this point.

Apparently the local PD has had a strained relationship with the black community for a while. Having this happen sure doesn't help better that relationship at all.

You would think that LE would release all 911 tapes and reports that they legally can as soon as possible. At least make a statement saying when they could possibly be released. Otherwise it looks to some that their trying to conceal the truth. JMO.

jjenny
03-14-2012, 11:40 PM
Yep, it doesn't make sense at all! And, AFAIK, there is nothing in the FL statutes that supports them not arresting Zimmerman.

And it gets even more fishy. The woman the media just interviewed claimed that the teenager was not shot at the same place that the fight took place at (there is some distance between the place the teenager was shot at and where the fight took place, according to this woman). She didn't hear any fighting, but she did hear someone screaming (and she thinks it was the teenager, not GZ). It's hard to imagine teenager was pursuing GZ considering GZ is much larger than this teenager was and in addition the teenager was not armed.

RANCH
03-14-2012, 11:41 PM
Yep, it doesn't make sense at all! And, AFAIK, there is nothing in the FL statutes that supports them not arresting Zimmerman.

Aren't the Police claiming there's insufficient evidence to charge Zimmerman when they handed it to the SA's.

Sanford police have said there was no probable cause for an arrest of Zimmerman.

The case is now in the hands of the State Attorney's Office.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/witness-sanford-police-blew-us-teen-slaying/nLSqk/

RANCH
03-15-2012, 12:14 AM
And it gets even more fishy. The woman the media just interviewed claimed that the teenager was not shot at the same place that the fight took place at (there is some distance between the place the teenager was shot at and where the fight took place, according to this woman). She didn't hear any fighting, but she did hear someone screaming (and she thinks it was the teenager, not GZ). It's hard to imagine teenager was pursuing GZ considering GZ is much larger than this teenager was and in addition the teenager was not armed.
I think that this interview with a women named Mary C. is the the one your talking about. I'm not sure about what she knows. One thing that bothered me was at the very end of this long interview, she asked why wasn't he arrested,and then brought to trial where he could then prove his innocence. She want's this guy thrown in jail until he can prove that he's innocent. Sorry Mary, it doesn't work that way in America.

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/interview-with-witness-of-sanford-teen-shooting/vGYPW/

jjenny
03-15-2012, 12:27 AM
She seems pretty sure the fight started 3-4 houses away from her backyard, and the boy was shot at her backyard. So it appears at some point the two of them (GZ and the boy) traveled together to where the boy was shot at. She also says the boy was face down so I am curious as to what autopsy says about direction in which the boy was shot (from the front or from the back?)

RANCH
03-15-2012, 12:47 AM
She seems pretty sure the fight started 3-4 houses away from her backyard, and the boy was shot at her backyard. So it appears at some point the two of them (GZ and the boy) traveled together to where the boy was shot at. She also says the boy was face down so I am curious as to what autopsy says about direction in which the boy was shot (from the front or from the back?)

She stated that she heard the "little boy" cry and didn't hear any kind of fight. She got the information about a fight later on from her neighbors.

The autopsy would show the entry of the bullet and it's direction while traveling thru the body. If Trayvon was shot in the back while trying to escape, that would show it.

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/interview-with-witness-of-sanford-teen-shooting/vGYPW/

Rob774
03-15-2012, 12:51 AM
I think that this interview with a women named Mary C. is the the one your talking about. I'm not sure about what she knows. One thing that bothered me was at the very end of this long interview, she asked why wasn't he arrested,and then brought to trial where he could then prove his innocence. She want's this guy thrown in jail until he can prove that he's innocent. Sorry Mary, it doesn't work that way in America.

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/interview-with-witness-of-sanford-teen-shooting/vGYPW/

Yes, we know innocent until proven guilty. But under reasonable circumstances, he would. Of been arrested, and then would of had to prove his guilt.

Some folk at this PD will come under a lot of fire before this all over. And it wouldn't.shock. me if it were found out thar GZ was somehow connected to someone of power/ influence down there.

RANCH
03-15-2012, 01:02 AM
Yes, we know innocent until proven guilty. But under reasonable circumstances, he would. Of been arrested, and then would of had to prove his guilt.

Some folk at this PD will come under a lot of fire before this all over. And it wouldn't.shock. me if it were found out thar GZ was somehow connected to someone of power/ influence down there.
He may still be arrested. It's up to the States Attorneys office now. If there really is a conspiracy to keep GZ out of trouble, it would have to a very big one. And very high stakes. Covering up a murder is about as big as it could get. One bad cop couldn't do it by himself. JMO.

LolaMoon08
03-15-2012, 01:59 AM
Do we know if Zimmerman had a job? I know he was going to school? School is expensive? He was living in a decent gated community? I think neighbors would have talked had he lived with his parents? I think we would know if he had roommates? I'm just curious how Zimmerman could afford both college and a place like that by himself?

We have heard nothing from the parents/family/friends of Zimmerman. You would think that anyone, even if it was in self-defense, would be devastated about taking another human beings life? I'm just surprised that no one has spoken up for him? Except the police? Is his family a family of money? Importance? Someone who makes generous donations for certain elected officials (Sheriff) during election years?

There is not even a lawyer for Zimmerman speaking on his behalf?

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/cops-son-caught-on-cam-punching-homeless-man/nKGLk/

Here's another Sanford, Florida case. Just look into this kids past and you'll see just how much he has gotten away with for having the right people in his family. Sick!

ETA: Here's what Sanford Police said about not arresting the kid on the spot.

"Despite the video, the police report says accounts on scene were conflicting and the victim was uncooperative. Officers said that is why Sanford police didn't make an arrest."

ETA: And the victim was uncooperative because he was unconscious for quite a while.

RANCH
03-15-2012, 02:40 AM
Do we know if Zimmerman had a job? I know he was going to school? School is expensive? He was living in a decent gated community? I think neighbors would have talked had he lived with his parents? I think we would know if he had roommates? I'm just curious how Zimmerman could afford both college and a place like that by himself?

We have heard nothing from the parents/family/friends of Zimmerman. You would think that anyone, even if it was in self-defense, would be devastated about taking another human beings life? I'm just surprised that no one has spoken up for him? Except the police? Is his family a family of money? Importance? Someone who makes generous donations for certain elected officials (Sheriff) during election years?

There is not even a lawyer for Zimmerman speaking on his behalf?

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/cops-son-caught-on-cam-punching-homeless-man/nKGLk/

Here's another Sanford, Florida case. Just look into this kids past and you'll see just how much he has gotten away with for having the right people in his family. Sick!

ETA: Here's what Sanford Police said about not arresting the kid on the spot.

"Despite the video, the police report says accounts on scene were conflicting and the victim was uncooperative. Officers said that is why Sanford police didn't make an arrest."

ETA: And the victim was uncooperative because he was unconscious for quite a while.
BBM
Here's another article showing that the young man was willing to pay the victims medical bills.

January 25, 2011|By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel

The son of a Sanford police officer who's charged with sucker punching a homeless man has agreed to pay the victim's medical bills and make donations to several non-profit groups, according to a local attorney.

And it looks like the Seminole County Sheriffs Office is conducting an investigation.

The Sanford Police Department has launched an investigation into nine officers associated with the case, trying to determine why there was no arrest the night Collison punched Ware. That is being conducted by the Seminole County Sheriff's Office.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-01-25/news/os-homeless-man-attacked-20110125_1_sanford-bar-medical-bills-homeless-man

LolaMoon08
03-15-2012, 03:32 AM
BBM
Here's another article showing that the young man was willing to pay the victims medical bills.

January 25, 2011|By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel



And it looks like the Seminole County Sheriffs Office is conducting an investigation.



http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2011-01-25/news/os-homeless-man-attacked-20110125_1_sanford-bar-medical-bills-homeless-man

It's already a done case. His parents paid off the homeless man and the charges were reduced and he was given a years probation.

I'm only bringing this case up to show that the Sanford Police have a habit of not arresting people with their excuse being, even when the crime was clearly videotaped, because the victim was uncooperative (unconscious in this case/dead in Tray's case) and they claim there was conflicting witness statements (in this case there were no conflicting statements/in Tray's case, we have no idea because they won't release the 911 tapes but a neighbor has come forward stating that one of the officers "corrected" a statement for her). The Sanford Police had no intention of ever arresting/charging Justin Collison of anything until the video went viral and there was a public outcry. Even when the judge had signed the arrest warrant, the Sanford Police didn't even put it in their computers so when Justin showed up to turn himself in, they turned him away.

There is some serious corruption going on in Sanford, imo.

angelmom
03-15-2012, 06:20 AM
I think that this interview with a women named Mary C. is the the one your talking about. I'm not sure about what she knows. One thing that bothered me was at the very end of this long interview, she asked why wasn't he arrested,and then brought to trial where he could then prove his innocence. She want's this guy thrown in jail until he can prove that he's innocent. Sorry Mary, it doesn't work that way in America.

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/interview-with-witness-of-sanford-teen-shooting/vGYPW/

Actually, it does. When the claim is self-defense, the burden of proof shifts to to the defense.

http://www.rbs2.com/cc.htm

burden of proof

criminal law
In criminal litigation, the burden of proof is always on the state. The state must prove that the defendant is guilty. The defendant is assumed to be innocent; the defendant needs to prove nothing. (There are exceptions. If the defendant wishes to claim that he/she is insane, and therefore not guilty, the defendant bears the burden of proving his/her insanity. Other exceptions include defendants who claim self-defense or duress.)

ScubaTwinn
03-15-2012, 09:36 AM
If it truly is self-defense, why is Zimmerman not talking to the public? If I were ever in the same position, I'd be screaming and crying to the world what happened and how sorry I was. Even if he didn't want to get into the details of exactly what happened because of an ongoing investigation, I'd still be crying I'm sorry to the family. MOO but his silence isn't helping him.

jjenny
03-15-2012, 09:44 AM
If it truly is self-defense, why is Zimmerman not talking to the public? If I were ever in the same position, I'd be screaming and crying to the world what happened and how sorry I was. Even if he didn't want to get into the details of exactly what happened because of an ongoing investigation, I'd still be crying I'm sorry to the family. MOO but his silence isn't helping him.

Considering anything you say "can and will be used against you in the court of law" there is no way he should be talking to the public right now. And if he is claiming self-defense, what in the world should he be sorry about? Being sorry implies guilt.

Velouria
03-15-2012, 09:45 AM
I think that this interview with a women named Mary C. is the the one your talking about. I'm not sure about what she knows. One thing that bothered me was at the very end of this long interview, she asked why wasn't he arrested,and then brought to trial where he could then prove his innocence. She want's this guy thrown in jail until he can prove that he's innocent. Sorry Mary, it doesn't work that way in America.

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/interview-with-witness-of-sanford-teen-shooting/vGYPW/

Actually it DOES work that way in most jurisdictions, as self-defense is an affirmative defense, meaning the burden is on the defendant to prove his innocence.

In this case, the SPD appears to be interpreting the "Stand Your Ground" statute to mean that GZ is free and clear as long as he claims self-defense. Never mind the fact that HE initiated a confrontation with an unarmed teenager who was lawfully walking down the street. Again, that wouldn't fly in most jurisdictions.

Sanford Police stated the 911 calls could not be released while the investigation was underway. Well, it's been over two days now since the investigation was concluded and turned over to the SA, and yet they still haven't released them. What's their excuse now?

jjenny
03-15-2012, 09:48 AM
Actually it DOES work that way in most jurisdictions, as self-defense is an affirmative defense, meaning the burden is on the defendant to prove his innocence.

In this case, the SPD appears to be interpreting the "Stand Your Ground" statute to mean that GZ is free and clear as long as he claims self-defense. Never mind the fact that HE initiated a confrontation with an unarmed teenager who was lawfully walking down the street. Again, that wouldn't fly in most jurisdictions.

Sanford Police stated the 911 calls could not be released while the investigation was underway. Well, it's been over two days now since the investigation was concluded and turned over to the SA, and yet they still haven't released them. What's their excuse now?

I presume once it gets to court police will be ordered to release the 911 tapes because of sunshine laws.

jjenny
03-15-2012, 11:47 AM
Actually it DOES work that way in most jurisdictions, as self-defense is an affirmative defense, meaning the burden is on the defendant to prove his innocence.

In this case, the SPD appears to be interpreting the "Stand Your Ground" statute to mean that GZ is free and clear as long as he claims self-defense. Never mind the fact that HE initiated a confrontation with an unarmed teenager who was lawfully walking down the street. Again, that wouldn't fly in most jurisdictions.

Sanford Police stated the 911 calls could not be released while the investigation was underway. Well, it's been over two days now since the investigation was concluded and turned over to the SA, and yet they still haven't released them. What's their excuse now?
There were a case in TX where a guy was repeatedly told by 911 operator not to go out there and confront the men who were allegedly burglarizing his neighbor's property. He got out there and shot and killed them (and grand jury refused to indict him). Once he got out there he claimed he felt threatened because they were running in his direction (or something to that effect). I think in any other state except TX (and potentially FL) he would have been put on trial. TX has very strong self-defense laws (and while I very much support self-defense laws that might be going too far).

Velouria
03-15-2012, 12:09 PM
jjenny, in that case I'd say the Grand Jury no-billed him because the burglars approached him on his own property after he stepped outside to tell them to stop. You do have the right in Texas to use deadly force to defend your own property, although one could argue there would be no need for defense had he not initiated the confrontation.

Another thing that wasn't widely reported is that the burglars were here illegally from Columbia where they'd both been convicted of drug trafficking. Hardly the most sympathetic of victims given the current political climate.

RANCH
03-15-2012, 01:06 PM
Actually it DOES work that way in most jurisdictions, as self-defense is an affirmative defense, meaning the burden is on the defendant to prove his innocence.

In this case, the SPD appears to be interpreting the "Stand Your Ground" statute to mean that GZ is free and clear as long as he claims self-defense. Never mind the fact that HE initiated a confrontation with an unarmed teenager who was lawfully walking down the street. Again, that wouldn't fly in most jurisdictions.

Sanford Police stated the 911 calls could not be released while the investigation was underway. Well, it's been over two days now since the investigation was concluded and turned over to the SA, and yet they still haven't released them. What's their excuse now?

BBM
Looks like Sanford PD is using Florida statue 776.013(3) Justifiable use of force.

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

Now if GZ was doing something illegal(assault?)when he confronted Trayvon, this statue would not apply.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

RANCH
03-15-2012, 01:14 PM
Actually it DOES work that way in most jurisdictions, as self-defense is an affirmative defense, meaning the burden is on the defendant to prove his innocence.

In this case, the SPD appears to be interpreting the "Stand Your Ground" statute to mean that GZ is free and clear as long as he claims self-defense. Never mind the fact that HE initiated a confrontation with an unarmed teenager who was lawfully walking down the street. Again, that wouldn't fly in most jurisdictions.

Sanford Police stated the 911 calls could not be released while the investigation was underway. Well, it's been over two days now since the investigation was concluded and turned over to the SA, and yet they still haven't released them. What's their excuse now?
BBM.
I agree that a defendant at trial using self-defense as a defense has the burden of proof.

But does that mean that in every case of self-defense, a person must be arrested, charged and brought to trial to prove their innocence? I don't believe that is true.

Velouria
03-15-2012, 03:40 PM
BBM.
I agree that a defendant at trial using self-defense as a defense has the burden of proof.

But does that mean that in every case of self-defense, a person must be arrested, charged and brought to trial to prove their innocence? I don't believe that is true.

I'm sure there are clear cut cases of self-defense, RANCH, but I dare say this sure ain't one of them. :notgood:

IMO, the statute could just as easily be applied to the actions of Trayvon. If he perceived GZ as an attacker, then he also had a right to self defense.

I wonder where we'd be if Trayvon was a bit older and carrying a licensed, concealed weapon, and Mr. Zimmerman had been unarmed. Something tells me we wouldn't still be wondering why no arrest has been made.

ScubaTwinn
03-15-2012, 04:29 PM
And if he is claiming self-defense, what in the world should he be sorry about? Being sorry implies guilt.

I would tell them I'm sorry they've lost a child. He doesn't have to say anything that implies guilt.

ScubaTwinn
03-15-2012, 04:33 PM
"Our entire family is deeply sorry for the loss of Trayvon," Robert Zimmerman's letter says. "We pray for the Martin family daily. We also pray that the community will grieve together and not be divided by more unwarranted hate."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315,0,1160767.story

jjenny
03-15-2012, 04:35 PM
jjenny, in that case I'd say the Grand Jury no-billed him because the burglars approached him on his own property after he stepped outside to tell them to stop. You do have the right in Texas to use deadly force to defend your own property, although one could argue there would be no need for defense had he not initiated the confrontation.

...
But he was told by 911 operator to not go outside so they wouldn't be approaching him if he followed directions. Those 911 calls were released and he is told not to do anything himself (which he disregards). Also it was not his property that was burglarized but his neighbors. If this was not in TX the outcome for him I believe would be quite different. I agree that the alleged burglars were not sympathetic victims.

jjenny
03-15-2012, 04:37 PM
"Our entire family is deeply sorry for the loss of Trayvon," Robert Zimmerman's letter says. "We pray for the Martin family daily. We also pray that the community will grieve together and not be divided by more unwarranted hate."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315,0,1160767.story

His father was not an witness to anything I presume. And if GZ didn't follow or confront the teenager, how did the two of them end up fighting? Not only that, a witness claims that the fighting took place in a different location from which the teenager was shot at.

csziggy
03-15-2012, 06:46 PM
BBM
Looks like Sanford PD is using Florida statue 776.013(3) Justifiable use of force.

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

Now if GZ was doing something illegal(assault?)when he confronted Trayvon, this statue would not apply.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

Wouldn't that hold true for Tray? After all, he had a legal right to be where he was. If GZ assaulted Tray first, wouldn't the law be inclined to go his way? The problem is that GZ survived and Tray didn't so we will never know Tray's side of the story.

I want to know what the forensics tell us about evidence of a fight on Tray's body. I'm suspicious of what GZ says and wonder about the indications of a fight on his person. One of the stories said there was blood on the back of GZ's shirt - whose blood? How did it get there?

I could see GZ rolling around, roughing himself up once he realized he needed a reason to have shot this young man. If there are no marks at all on Tray, that would be a good reason to doubt GZ's claims. How could a smaller man do all that damage to the much larger GZ without leaving some evidence on the smaller person? MOO, of course.

jjenny
03-15-2012, 06:49 PM
Based on what witness said, it's extremely unlikely that GZ rolled around after shooting the teenager. Witness saw him standing over the teenager, not rolling around.

JeannaT
03-15-2012, 07:19 PM
Wouldn't that hold true for Tray? After all, he had a legal right to be where he was. If GZ assaulted Tray first, wouldn't the law be inclined to go his way? The problem is that GZ survived and Tray didn't so we will never know Tray's side of the story.

I want to know what the forensics tell us about evidence of a fight on Tray's body. I'm suspicious of what GZ says and wonder about the indications of a fight on his person. One of the stories said there was blood on the back of GZ's shirt - whose blood? How did it get there?

I could see GZ rolling around, roughing himself up once he realized he needed a reason to have shot this young man. If there are no marks at all on Tray, that would be a good reason to doubt GZ's claims. How could a smaller man do all that damage to the much larger GZ without leaving some evidence on the smaller person? MOO, of course.

This does hinge on who punched first, I completely agree. Since it has turned out there was at least one witness to this altercation, I think we can put to rest the idea that GZ injured himself on purpose after shooting Trayvon.

BTW, all the media articles I've read state GZ had blood coming out of his head and nose, but that would probably trickle down to his shirt. I haven't seen an article about blood on his shirt.

I hope they did good forensics on Trayvon's body before his burial to determine how many injuries he sustained before being shot vs. GZ.

If there are no marks on Tray, that would actually be great reason to believe GZ. That it wasn't really a fight, it was an assault and GZ had to defend himself with his gun.

But we don't know any of these answers yet, we're still just kind of discussing the questions that should be asked.

JeannaT
03-15-2012, 07:28 PM
"Our entire family is deeply sorry for the loss of Trayvon," Robert Zimmerman's letter says. "We pray for the Martin family daily. We also pray that the community will grieve together and not be divided by more unwarranted hate."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315,0,1160767.story

Interesting commentary by GZ's dad. The longer the details of the altercation remain hidden from public view, the more passions will be inflamed.

Doesn't LE see that? Surely their investigation is complete. This isn't dying down, it's escalating. It seems time for the details - whatever they are - to be made public so frustrations don't just simmer and then explode in a violent boil.

Lovejac
03-15-2012, 08:35 PM
IMO, the statute could just as easily be applied to the actions of Trayvon. If he perceived GZ as an attacker, then he also had a right to self defense.

respectfully snipped by me and bolded by me.

THIS! THIS!

Trayvon is a 17 yo boy, being followed by someone in a car and then confronted by this same person!

GZ was older AND outweighed Trayvon!

LolaMoon08
03-15-2012, 08:42 PM
Interesting commentary by GZ's dad. The longer the details of the altercation remain hidden from public view, the more passions will be inflamed.

Doesn't LE see that? Surely their investigation is complete. This isn't dying down, it's escalating. It seems time for the details - whatever they are - to be made public so frustrations don't just simmer and then explode in a violent boil.

I don't see how they can't see it? I don't usually question LE unless there is a really good reason for it and I am really questioning LE in this case. At least let the family listen to the tapes and they can make a statement to the public if everything is on the up and up! The investigation is done. The family deserves answers.

Lovejac
03-15-2012, 08:49 PM
"Our entire family is deeply sorry for the loss of Trayvon," Robert Zimmerman's letter says. "We pray for the Martin family daily. We also pray that the community will grieve together and not be divided by more unwarranted hate."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-zimmerman-letter-20120315,0,1160767.story

Well, it looks like the Zimmerman family finally got a PR person. Good for them.

I don't ever condone death threats and I am sorry they have received them. That being said, this statement has not changed my feelings.

I'm glad that a black neighbor would trust her life to GZ and I'm glad that the Zimmermans have black people in their family. <insert sarcasm>

I don't give a hoot what color they were. Trayvon was a 17 year old boy who was followed and confronted by a 28 year old man, after being advised not to. That's all I need to know.

jjenny
03-15-2012, 09:09 PM
And we still haven't got neither 911 calls nor autopsy results (despite sunshine laws). I am very curious if they can tell what position the teenager was in when he was shot, direction of the shot, and whether teenager had any bruising, etc, from this fight.

daisy7
03-15-2012, 09:19 PM
I don't know that autopsy reports are usually made public, even with our Sunshine laws. But, WTH are the 911 calls??!! Has there been anything reported about an upcoming court hearing from what was filed by his family about releasing the calls?

Lovejac
03-15-2012, 09:24 PM
I don't know that autopsy reports are usually made public, even with our Sunshine laws. But, WTH are the 911 calls??!! Has there been anything reported about an upcoming court hearing from what was filed by his family about releasing the calls?

Nothing yet, daisy. Very odd isn't?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-family-seeks-justice-unarmed-teen-shot-neighborhood/story?id=15888961

Local police declined to comment on the case at this time although they did provide ABC News with a copy of the police report. The 911 tapes, say police, will be released next week.

The date of the article is March 9th