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nursebeeme
03-15-2012, 07:39 AM
New thread for a new day. Please remember the rules



:tos:


when posting an opinion please remember to use your :moo: or :twocents: or just IMO or JMO will do nicely.

--------
the crown will present its case in chapters:

Chapter 1: The day of the kidnapping. The surveillance video showing Rafferty driving up the street outside Tori's school and McClintic walking Tori up the street. Witnesses from and around Oliver Stephens public school will talk about seeing Tori.

An identification officer will use photographs and maps to show the route from Woodstock to Guelph.

Tori's mother, Tara McDonald, will testify about the frantic hours the family spent looking for Tori.

Chapter 2: Terri-Lynne McClintic. "She was an essential part of all that happened," Gowdey said. "I expect her credibility will be a major issue in this case."

Chapter 3: Guelph -- video surveillance and bank records detailing the events there.

Chapter 4: the Mount Forest death scene, which the jury will visit. "It will be difficult to go to the very place where this happened, I know that, but understanding the crime scene is crucial to understanding the crime," Gowdey said. Photographs, some of them graphic, will be used to explain "exactly how the killing happened."

"Unfortunately it is only through them that you can fully understand (the) evidence," Gowdey said.

Chapter 5: Police interaction with Rafferty.

Chapter 6: The searches of Rafferty and McClintic's residences and the evidence found.

Chapter 7: The Honda Civic. What was found inside.

Chapter 8: Rafferty's connection to the Mount Forest area.

Chapter 9: Comments Rafferty made to friends after April 8. "He had some interesting things to say to other people about Terri-Lynne McClintic and about the kidnapping itself," Gowdey said.

Chapter 10: The May 15 weekend and Rafferty's actions.

Chapter 11: The BlackBerry. The BlackBerry allowed police to track his movements April 8 and after.

Chapter 12: A recap of the surveillance video.
http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/r.../19463111.html


reposting Salem's warning from last week:

Okay everybody - LISTEN UP! We are not bashing, accusing or blaming Tori's family here. It won't be allowed.

Children walk home from school every day without incident. Parents are not perfect, it's just not possible. Tori's parents DID NOT do this to her. TLM and an accomplice DID. That is where the blame goes.

We had a lot of family bashing in the early parts of this investigation after Tori went missing and a lot of baseless accusations - NONE OF WHICH PROVED TO BE TRUE. Victim and family bashing will not be allowed during this trial.

Thank you,

Salem

~n/t~
03-15-2012, 08:49 AM
Good Morning!

Quiet day today. No court.

Victoria, you are always in our hearts :heartbeat: Justice is coming!

http://diarioelpopular.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Victoria-Stafford-300x180.jpg

nettie_82
03-15-2012, 09:17 AM
Inside the Mind of a Juror

http://www.ctv.ca/newschannel/

Last night on CTV newschannel they had a special report on inside the mind of a juror. It is an interview with someone from the States due to the fact that Juror's in Canada having more limitations on what is actually allowed to be discussed after the case is over with.

~n/t~
03-15-2012, 09:23 AM
Tasha Kheiriddin: Tori Stafford case shows why Canada needs the death penalty



It is simple, it is basic, it is human; it survives statistics, defences based on horrible childhoods and theories prizing rehabilitation over punishment. It is not a blanket endorsement of the death penalty, but a recognition that in some circumstances, for justice to be truly served, the justice system must exact the ultimate price.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/03/15/tasha-kheiriddin-stafford-case-shows-why-canada-needs-the-death-penalty/

~n/t~
03-15-2012, 09:31 AM
Christie Blatchford: Tori Stafford knew she was in trouble, Terri-Lynne McClintic testifies

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/03/14/tori-stafford-terri-lynne-mcclintic/


Photos of TLM at Home Depot at the link

matou
03-15-2012, 09:32 AM
Evidence photos from March 14th, 2012

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/14/19503411.html

brighidin
03-15-2012, 10:40 AM
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/03/14/audio-stafford-trial-hanson-bernardo.html

An interesting audio interview with the lawyer who represented the families of Leslie Mahaffy and Kristen French regarding what family members go through in court, and why they sit through the proceedings, as well as the value of testimony being heard in open court.

myzzy
03-15-2012, 10:43 AM
Good morning everyone.

Anyone else thinking so far that there is a huge part missing?

Couple of questions

1) How often did they see each other before the murder? Daily? a couple of times? ect... ( from what little i see its a half a dozen times? ) She seems the type that would be consumed by a guy and want to always be with them but from what i gather it dosent seem that way

2) How many times did he talk about kidnapping before Tori. I would assume it was not just in passing for him to say "you gonna do it" i would have thought that they would have had some indepth conversations

3) In the HomeDepot video, did it seem as if she was casual and not in a hurry or worried if anyone was watching her ( I know i would be hussiling and paying attention to who is around me and looking for cameras ect since " didnt want to leave a trail "

4) When she left the HD store did she walk or was she running i couldnt tell but i think she was walking as the car pulled around..

5) In the HD video of the car and TLM going to it, Why if there is a child in the back seat being kidnapped would that car with her in it be sitting NEXT to other cars while it waited? Did not drive to avoid cars either. Iwould be NOWHERE near anyone

~n/t~
03-15-2012, 11:03 AM
Good morning everyone.

Anyone else thinking so far that there is a huge part missing?

Couple of questions

1) How often did they see each other before the murder? Daily? a couple of times? ect... ( from what little i see its a half a dozen times? ) She seems the type that would be consumed by a guy and want to always be with them but from what i gather it dosent seem that way

2) How many times did he talk about kidnapping before Tori. I would assume it was not just in passing for him to say "you gonna do it" i would have thought that they would have had some indepth conversations

3) In the HomeDepot video, did it seem as if she was casual and not in a hurry or worried if anyone was watching her ( I know i would be hussiling and paying attention to who is around me and looking for cameras ect since " didnt want to leave a trail "

4) When she left the HD store did she walk or was she running i couldnt tell but i think she was walking as the car pulled around..

5) In the HD video of the car and TLM going to it, Why if there is a child in the back seat being kidnapped would that car with her in it be sitting NEXT to other cars while it waited? Did not drive to avoid cars either. Iwould be NOWHERE near anyone

Good questions to have answers to but personally, I don't think they're relevant (or perhaps I really don't care how fast she went through the HD). We know she murdered Tori. She confessed. Rafferty is involved and we'll hear much more of his involvement later in the trial.

Right now, they're going through all the chapters as was they're strategy when they started their case.

BTW...they haven't finished with TLM and then there is cross so some of the questions you're asking may be answered. Maybe the timeline will be important for the defense. We'll see.

brighidin
03-15-2012, 11:16 AM
Good morning everyone.


3) In the HomeDepot video, did it seem as if she was casual and not in a hurry or worried if anyone was watching her ( I know i would be hussiling and paying attention to who is around me and looking for cameras ect since " didnt want to leave a trail "

4) When she left the HD store did she walk or was she running i couldnt tell but i think she was walking as the car pulled around..

5) In the HD video of the car and TLM going to it, Why if there is a child in the back seat being kidnapped would that car with her in it be sitting NEXT to other cars while it waited? Did not drive to avoid cars either. Iwould be NOWHERE near anyone

Snipped by me.
don't know the answers to the other questions, and I agree that that info will probably come out later. As to the last few, I'm going to guess that its because they were high and didn't give a flying...eff.

matou
03-15-2012, 11:17 AM
Maybe TLM's scoliosis is the cause of her crooked walk. JMO

antiquegirl
03-15-2012, 12:04 PM
I have posted many times since the beginning of this awful case that I'm reserving judgment until concrete evidence is presented and proven in court. That TLM was involved in the abduction was made clear almost from the beginning. The remaining question was what was the extent of MTR’s involvement.

Until this week, there was nothing definitive – merely rumours, conjecture, and circumstantial evidence of his car being in the vicinity of Tori’s school on April 8th. The charges and the Crown’s opening statement are not evidence, as stressed by Judge Heeney.

Most of TLM’s testimony (so far) is not evidence either – it’s merely her word against his, especially about conversations between only the two of them, and things she allegedly saw and heard without other witnesses. Her self-admitted history as a liar speaks for itself. She has admitted "flashbacks" to her own abuse. She has a long record in a short life of violence and crime. Her almost life-long drug abuse raises questions about her rationality and memory. She has given several reasons to suggest she bore some hostility towards MTR, and thus a motive for throwing him under the bus. I think the defence won’t have a tough time raising the jury’s doubts about her reliability as a witness.

So far, the most damning evidence IMO is the outdoor Home Depot video showing TLM getting into MTR’s car. Although neither MTR nor Tori can be seen in that clip, it certainly begs for explanation. Definitely does not look good. I’m eager to hear what other physical evidence the Crown has to exhibit and to other witnesses’ testimonies. It should be fascinating to hear the defence’s arguments and cross-examinations. There are a lot of holes here that need to be filled.

Right now, I have the same sinking feeling that RS does: that we will probably never know everything that really happened that terrible day. If we feel bad about that, imagine how Tori’s family does! I sure can’t.

JMO

KMouse
03-15-2012, 12:09 PM
I have a question that I hope is answered by TLM:

When they went to Home Depot why did she buy a hammer and garbage bags? Did MR tell her what to buy? I am guessing he did since he is the puppetmaster. What the heck did she think they were for?
There are gaps that need to be filled.


I spent a lot of my evening trying to piece everything together.

~n/t~
03-15-2012, 12:31 PM
I'm curious. What more do people need to know? Dear God, what I heard so far from TLM was enough to haunt me for the rest of my life. Do we need to know how much more this poor child suffered? Was the brutality as described by TLM not enough evidence of what Tori suffered?

Maybe RS doesn't believe TLM killed Tori and both TLM and MR had a part in her murder and perhaps he believes TLM is protecting MR in some way so he doesn't get convicted of 1st degree. Or perhaps some of his questions were answered. I don't know.

I'm questioning those here that still think there is more. What do you think the murderer hasn't said already that you feel she should?

Hello_Kitty
03-15-2012, 12:39 PM
Her self-admitted history as a liar speaks for itself. She has admitted "flashbacks" to her own abuse.

Snipped and bolded by me:


I was thinking yesterday about all the lies TLM told and she's probably lying on the stand as well about things, some of her story seems so dramatic, almost like a fantasy, even the way she talks on the stands sometimes sounds made up. So we know she is a liar.

But, MR is also a liar in my eyes, lying about his school credentials, lying about his work credentials, lying on his social media profiles, lying to his girlfriends, cheating on his girlfriends. He as well will have some credibility issues IMO.

nonfictionrocks
03-15-2012, 12:40 PM
I have a question that I hope is answered by TLM:

When they went to Home Depot why did she buy a hammer and garbage bags? Did MR tell her what to buy? I am guessing he did since he is the puppetmaster. What the heck did she think they were for?
There are gaps that need to be filled.


I spent a lot of my evening trying to piece everything together.

I was just to ask this same question somewhat. Are there any tweets from anyone in the court about this conversation? I can't find one and if anyone here has one saved can they post it here or direct me to where I can find it. TIA

Hello_Kitty
03-15-2012, 12:41 PM
I have a question that I hope is answered by TLM:

When they went to Home Depot why did she buy a hammer and garbage bags? Did MR tell her what to buy? I am guessing he did since he is the puppetmaster. What the heck did she think they were for?
There are gaps that need to be filled.


I spent a lot of my evening trying to piece everything together.



Didn't we hear from her evidence that 'she was instructed to do so' in connection with buying the hammer.

Oldsoul2
03-15-2012, 12:51 PM
I'm curious. What more do people need to know? Dear God, what I heard so far from TLM was enough to haunt me for the rest of my life. Do we need to know how much more this poor child suffered? Was the brutality as described by TLM not enough evidence of what Tori suffered?

Maybe RS doesn't believe TLM killed Tori and both TLM and MR had a part in her murder and perhaps he believes TLM is protecting MR in some way so he doesn't get convicted of 1st degree. Or perhaps some of his questions were answered. I don't know.

I'm questioning those here that still think there is more. What do you think the murderer hasn't said already that you feel she should?

Agree! I have read over 30 cases involving children in the last year, this detailed testimony will stay etched in my mind for a very long time. I literally got a migrain during her first day from being so angry at what I was reading followed by wanting to cry at my work desk trying to wrap my head around how sick people are.

BTW I think RS knows that MR had done things in the past that he can't disclose beacuse they are not submissable in court.

myzzy
03-15-2012, 12:52 PM
I'm curious. What more do people need to know? Dear God, what I heard so far from TLM was enough to haunt me for the rest of my life. Do we need to know how much more this poor child suffered? Was the brutality as described by TLM not enough evidence of what Tori suffered?

Maybe RS doesn't believe TLM killed Tori and both TLM and MR had a part in her murder and perhaps he believes TLM is protecting MR in some way so he doesn't get convicted of 1st degree. Or perhaps some of his questions were answered. I don't know.

I'm questioning those here that still think there is more. What do you think the murderer hasn't said already that you feel she should?

BBM- The truth, the whole truth. Thats what I feel she should say. I would want to know everything vs just snips of it. She admitted to the murder but he has not and if we dont have the whole picture i dont think that a fair trial would have been given do you?

She has lied, she has skirted the truth ( if that is the truth ) and she is no way a crediable witness in my opinion and I want nothing but closure for the family and for justice to be served to those involved.

Tori's whole case is heartwrenching and hit way to close to home for so many people, Tori could have been anyones child

~n/t~
03-15-2012, 01:06 PM
Agree! I have read over 30 cases involving children in the last year, this detailed testimony will stay etched in my mind for a very long time. I literally got a migrain during her first day from being so angry at what I was reading followed by wanting to cry at my work desk trying to wrap my head around how sick people are.

BTW I think RS knows that MR had done things in the past that he can't disclose beacuse they are not submissable in court.

Perhaps he does and there is a lot he can't say because of the trial. Once this other perp is convicted, I have a feeling Rodney will let it all out.

I think he is trying so hard to keep his cool. I just can't imagine what this is doing to him, having to listen to this monster detailing how she murdered his baby girl. Inhumane!

~n/t~
03-15-2012, 01:15 PM
BBM- The truth, the whole truth. Thats what I feel she should say. I would want to know everything vs just snips of it. She admitted to the murder but he has not and if we dont have the whole picture i dont think that a fair trial would have been given do you?

She has lied, she has skirted the truth ( if that is the truth ) and she is no way a crediable witness in my opinion and I want nothing but closure for the family and for justice to be served to those involved.

Tori's whole case is heartwrenching and hit way to close to home for so many people, Tori could have been anyones child

Lied about what as it relates to Tori's abduction and murder? We see her luring Tori from school, we see her at HD purchasing garbage bags and hammer, there were evidence photos shown to the jury. The jury will get to go to Mt. Forest to visit the crime scene. They got to see the surveillance video of the abduction. We haven't even gotten to forensics yet.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that whatever TLM said is true (as it relates to Tori's abduction and murder). The rest of the stuff, I couldn't give a rat's arse about. How many times she drugged herself, or about her stripper mother, ......don't care!

nonfictionrocks
03-15-2012, 01:19 PM
Most of TLM’s testimony (so far) is not evidence either – it’s merely her word against his, especially about conversations between only the two of them, and things she allegedly saw and heard without other witnesses. Her self-admitted history as a liar speaks for itself. She has admitted "flashbacks" to her own abuse. She has a long record in a short life of violence and crime. Her almost life-long drug abuse raises questions about her rationality and memory. She has given several reasons to suggest she bore some hostility towards MTR, and thus a motive for throwing him under the bus. I think the defence won’t have a tough time raising the jury’s doubts about her reliability as a witness.

JMO

Respectfully snipped (again) ;)

I always figured TLM was the one who had it in her to do the killing and strongly suspected she laid the fatal blows, but I was blown away that she actually admitted to it. I will go on record right now to say, I was wrong about her "hope" in getting out early through the Faint Hope Clause.

Also, since I am coming "clean", I figured none of the players were talking OxyContin as prescribed, by mouth and with a glass of water, never in my dreams did I suspect they were shooting it into their veins. IMO, her mother should be on trial answering for her parenting methods too. Mother and daughter are truly pieces of "works".

matou
03-15-2012, 01:32 PM
The judge and lawyers will discuss legal issues behind closed doors Thursday. The jury will return to court Friday if the issues can be resolved, at which time Terri-Lynne McClintic will continue her testimony.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/03/15/tori-stafford-trial-break.html

Hello_Kitty
03-15-2012, 01:36 PM
Lied about what as it relates to Tori's abduction and murder? We see her luring Tori from school, we see her at HD purchasing garbage bags and hammer, there were evidence photos shown to the jury. The jury will get to go to Mt. Forest to visit the crime scene. They got to see the surveillance video of the abduction. We haven't even gotten to forensics yet.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that whatever TLM said is true (as it relates to Tori's abduction and murder). The rest of the stuff, I couldn't give a rat's arse about. How many times she drugged herself, or about her stripper mother, ......don't care!

For my part, I don't believe she said any of those things to Tori, I don't think she ever said 'i'm sorry' or that she 'didn't go out that morning thinking she would abduct someone' or that she meant it when she told Tori she would make sure she got home, or that she ignored MR when he talked about abduction. I don't know how she can make herself look like she is sympathizing with the victim when she was the one that delivered the death blow.

I think maybe perhaps that's what people are feeling she isn't telling the truth.

matou
03-15-2012, 01:37 PM
On the first day of her testimony Tuesday, McClintic said she was the one who wielded the hammer after the sexual assault of Tori prompted flashbacks to her own childhood traumas. Superior Court Judge Thomas Heeney cautioned the jury on the use of prior inconsistent statements, saying that if a lie is repeated 100 times, it doesn't make it true.

"There might be a temptation for you to conclude that because Ms. McClintic said something on at least one occasion then said the same thing on subsequent occasions that it is more likely to be the truth," Heeney said. "That would be an improper and an illogical conclusion to draw."

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/15/michael-rafferty-trial_n_1346817.html

flipflop
03-15-2012, 01:37 PM
Didn't we hear from her evidence that 'she was instructed to do so' in connection with buying the hammer.

am980
McClintic was asked by Rafferty Togo in and purchase a hammer and some garbage bags. Tori still covered in the back seat.

Rafferty used a PetroCanada ATM near the Home Depot to get cash so his debit card couldn't be traced there. Gave McClintic the money.

Tori asked McClintic not to get out of the car. She said she didn;t want to be alone with Rafferty.

McClintic used the self serve check out. She didn't know why Rafferty wanted the hammer or garbage bags.

McClintic said to herself she would not let anything happen to Tori. She got back in the car and they left the Home Depot.

McClintic didn't know where they were going. She starts to get emotional on the stand. She didn't ask for help at the Home Depot

McClintic says Rafferty told her they could not just keep Tori, and they could not take her back. People would be looking for her

matou
03-15-2012, 01:40 PM
"I said that I would take the fall for everything, that I would say it was all me, that he had more to lose than I did," McClintic said.

She further told him, "he had a life, a job, things going for him and I was just, I really had nothing," court heard. "I said don't worry about it, it's OK. It's OK. I'm just an 18-year-old junkie anyways"

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/15/michael-rafferty-trial_n_1346817.html

What job did she think he had? He had things going for him? Like what I wonder? Constant access to drugs? JMO

flipflop
03-15-2012, 01:48 PM
UPDATE: The lawyers and judge in the Michael Rafferty trial will spend Thursday discussing matters behind closed doors. The jurors will continue to hear Terri-Lynne McClintic's testimony on Friday if the parties have resolved the legal issues

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/15/michael-rafferty-trial_n_1346817.html

I would love to be a fly on the wall....hmmmm

scapa
03-15-2012, 01:51 PM
BBM- The truth, the whole truth. Thats what I feel she should say. I would want to know everything vs just snips of it. She admitted to the murder but he has not and if we dont have the whole picture i dont think that a fair trial would have been given do you?

She has lied, she has skirted the truth ( if that is the truth ) and she is no way a crediable witness in my opinion and I want nothing but closure for the family and for justice to be served to those involved.

I think she's telling the truth about the abduction and murder. Whether or not she's hiding the extent of her role in planning it, her motives, or what she got out of it, I don't know, and I don't really care. I suspect that TLM has spent most of her life making it up as she goes, and that "the whole truth" is a foreign concept to her. So even if she were entirely cooperative and desperate to reveal all, I'm not sure she'd be able to do it -- drug-induced haze aside.

I can't think of any genuinely complicated case where anything like the "whole truth" is available. Offenders lie about motivations, degree of responsibility, details of their actions, role of victims, and on and on. I can't stomach any extra detail at this point. But I can't imagine TLM lying about that day itself -- too much corroborating evidence and the sheer weirdness of some of it. I really do think it's as close to the "whole truth" as we're gonna get -- especially with the additional evidence in place.

I think she'll do poorly in the cross though. Not that it will make a difference (I sincerely hope).

s

Hello_Kitty
03-15-2012, 01:52 PM
]"I said that I would take the fall for everything, that I would say it was all me, that he had more to lose than I did," McClintic said[/B].


Snipped and bolded by me:


I'm wondering, (aside from being terribly misguided about what one would do for love, not that he was much in love with her, but she thought she was with him) why she would take the fall for him. She knew what jail might be like, she had already been in juvie. I'm wondering if jail was the last stop for her. Indeed she had nothing, her mother for all accounts was and addict who was on the point of dying, she would have had no one, she would have had to go her own way in the world with no one to lean on.m I'm wondering if she thought she might be better off in jail and that's why she was willing to take the fall for everything, until she found out he had another chickie, then she decided confess to his part.

matou
03-15-2012, 02:00 PM
Snipped and bolded by me:


I'm wondering, (aside from being terribly misguided about what one would do for love, not that he was much in love with her, but she thought she was with him) why she would take the fall for him. She knew what jail might be like, she had already been in juvie. I'm wondering if jail was the last stop for her. Indeed she had nothing, her mother for all accounts was and addict who was on the point of dying, she would have had no one, she would have had to go her own way in the world with no one to lean on.m I'm wondering if she thought she might be better off in jail and that's why she was willing to take the fall for everything, until she found out he had another chickie, then she decided confess to his part.

I can't believe she would take the fall for a child adbuctor, molester, rapist and murderer. SHe would be fine with him "out there" and available to continue his behaviour on other possible victims. That just disgusts me in additition to everything else. He shows her homes of single moms he knows to suggest tying them up and he "has a life?" WTH???? JMO

antiquegirl
03-15-2012, 02:04 PM
My claim that TLM is a habitual liar has been proven over and over.


She lied to LE about being involved in Tori’s abduction when first arrested on another charge.

She lied to her mother about where she was on the evening of April 8th.

She lied to MTR when she told him she would take the rap for him.

She lied to LE when she initially told them that MTR murdered Tori.

She has written several pages in a journal full of nothing but lies.

All this has been presented as evidence. It would be a safe bet that these were not her only lies – before or after the crime. How can she possibly be found credible?

How can we know for sure whose plan the abduction actually was? How do we know that it was his idea and not hers to scope out townhouses and schools prior to this? How can we believe that MTR helped her with the alibi entries? How can it be proven that he told her Tori wasn’t young enough? How do we know it wasn’t her idea to buy the hammer? In other words, all conversations that took place between them, as claimed by TLM, are a “he said/she said” situation. No witnesses, no proof.

But most importantly, how do we know yet that Tori was indeed sexually assaulted by MTR? So far, we only have TLM’s horrific testimony. I’m not saying I don’t believe it – only that she is not a credible witness and we have yet to see any actual direct evidence.

As to why she would lie? We have heard that LE persuaded her to confess by telling her that MTR was dating other women. Jealousy is a good motive. Here are a few Tweets from the trial to suggest others:


Cristina Tenaglia‏@cristina_CHCHTV

Made me "feel down on myself, like I was this horrible person" when she shared with #rafferty her criminal past


Linda Nguyen‏@LindaNguyenPN

McC says at times, #Rafferty made her feel "horrible" bc he acted like he was better than her #ToriStafford


Adrian Morrow‏@AdrianMorrow

When she told Rafferty about the warrant, McClintic says, he told her "it's like Lucifer meets a bible-thumper." #ToriStafford

Waiting for physical evidence to support TLM’s testimony. I have an open mind.

JMO

ETA: And yes, I know that MTR is legally guilty if he participated in any way in the abduction, whether or not he abused Tori, or killed her. This is not the point of my post.

nursebeeme
03-15-2012, 02:19 PM
AG, I have trouble believing just the statements of TLM alone as well (like a lot of trouble :eek:). I trust that the Crown has much more to corroborate her story than just her story alone.

:moo:

robynhood
03-15-2012, 02:23 PM
....I think Tori's Dad is right on when he said we may NEVER know the TRUTH as Victoria is the only voice and so horrible the way her life was taken i ....makes me sick every time I see a a honda civic drive by I get the CREEPS ! It is the sadest story I ever read ....I agree with you Matou....like WTF life was he going to continue ????...raping and assaulting single mom's ...OMG ...I am speachless....R.I.P Tori ...robynhood.

Oldsoul2
03-15-2012, 02:38 PM
"I said that I would take the fall for everything, that I would say it was all me, that he had more to lose than I did," McClintic said.

She further told him, "he had a life, a job, things going for him and I was just, I really had nothing," court heard. "I said don't worry about it, it's OK. It's OK. I'm just an 18-year-old junkie anyways"

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/15/michael-rafferty-trial_n_1346817.html

What job did she think he had? He had things going for him? Like what I wonder? Constant access to drugs? JMO

This is why you don't do drugs with your daughter!

Hello_Kitty
03-15-2012, 02:53 PM
This is why you don't do drugs with your daughter!

Sadly some parents have no moral filters, even when it comes to their own children.

nonfictionrocks
03-15-2012, 03:00 PM
am980
McClintic was asked by Rafferty Togo in and purchase a hammer and some garbage bags. Tori still covered in the back seat.

Rafferty used a PetroCanada ATM near the Home Depot to get cash so his debit card couldn't be traced there. Gave McClintic the money.

Tori asked McClintic not to get out of the car. She said she didn;t want to be alone with Rafferty.

McClintic used the self serve check out. She didn't know why Rafferty wanted the hammer or garbage bags.

McClintic said to herself she would not let anything happen to Tori. She got back in the car and they left the Home Depot.

McClintic didn't know where they were going. She starts to get emotional on the stand. She didn't ask for help at the Home Depot

McClintic says Rafferty told her they could not just keep Tori, and they could not take her back. People would be looking for her

Thank you FF.

Not a question directed at you FF (but if you have the answer to this too, great!!) other than the picture of TLM on the bed at the motel, were there pictures or cctv footage of MTR entered in as evidence?

KMouse
03-15-2012, 03:07 PM
I'm curious. What more do people need to know? Dear God, what I heard so far from TLM was enough to haunt me for the rest of my life. Do we need to know how much more this poor child suffered? Was the brutality as described by TLM not enough evidence of what Tori suffered?

Maybe RS doesn't believe TLM killed Tori and both TLM and MR had a part in her murder and perhaps he believes TLM is protecting MR in some way so he doesn't get convicted of 1st degree. Or perhaps some of his questions were answered. I don't know.

I'm questioning those here that still think there is more. What do you think the murderer hasn't said already that you feel she should?

To me it doesn't matter which one held the hammer or did the kicking. They are both guilty of abduction and murder. MR is most likely guilty of sex assault but for that they will need something more than the corroborating evidence such as the surveillance videos and the bank withdrawal.


TLM did not mention that MR used a condom so I am praying that there is some of his DNA somewhere with Tori's body and in the garbage bag.
If Tori went pee somewhere I am praying that somehow there is MR's dna in that path of grass. But that is wishful thinking on my part.

If he wasn't planning on killing her what was he going to do with her?

My opinion is that the Crown is doing a great job of backing up TLM's testimony with the photos of the clothes, hair dye, photos of clothing, Home Depot video etc. I am surprised we haven't seen the bank machine withdrawal video yet but that along with bank records will corroborate TLM's testimony.

KMouse
03-15-2012, 03:10 PM
am980
McClintic was asked by Rafferty Togo in and purchase a hammer and some garbage bags. Tori still covered in the back seat.

Rafferty used a PetroCanada ATM near the Home Depot to get cash so his debit card couldn't be traced there. Gave McClintic the money.

Tori asked McClintic not to get out of the car. She said she didn;t want to be alone with Rafferty.

McClintic used the self serve check out. She didn't know why Rafferty wanted the hammer or garbage bags.

McClintic said to herself she would not let anything happen to Tori. She got back in the car and they left the Home Depot.

McClintic didn't know where they were going. She starts to get emotional on the stand. She didn't ask for help at the Home Depot

McClintic says Rafferty told her they could not just keep Tori, and they could not take her back. People would be looking for her

Thanks. That is what I thought but when I was reading the tweets it was so surreal.

nursebeeme
03-15-2012, 03:13 PM
To me it doesn't matter which one held the hammer or did the kicking. They are both guilty of abduction and murder. MR is most likely guilty of sex assault but for that they will need something more than the corroborating evidence such as the surveillance videos and the bank withdrawal.


TLM did not mention that MR used a condom so I am praying that there is some of his DNA somewhere with Tori's body and in the garbage bag.
If Tori went pee somewhere I am praying that somehow there is MR's dna in that path of grass. But that is wishful thinking on my part.

If he wasn't planning on killing her what was he going to do with her?

My opinion is that the Crown is doing a great job of backing up TLM's testimony with the photos of the clothes, hair dye, photos of clothing, Home Depot video etc. I am surprised we haven't seen the bank machine withdrawal video yet but that along with bank records will corroborate TLM's testimony.
bbm, ita that they will have to back up everything that TLM says with evidence to corroborate her version of events. With the delay today we could even see her testimony continue thru monday as she was to testify all week iirc?

Kittymama
03-15-2012, 03:20 PM
I am wondering if the water bottles that Rafferty had in his car were there just for that purpose. It sounds like it, imo.

I'm also curious about what he was doing while the Crown was showing the video evidence of TLM at the Home Depot, getting into his car, at the movies, etc. I'm surprised nobody reported on that.

nursebeeme
03-15-2012, 03:27 PM
not to be silly or anything... but I am a nurse... and if someone were taking that much oxy or percocets you would need to drink a lake of water in order to **think mother nature**

:moo:

matou
03-15-2012, 04:15 PM
She testified that:

* Rafferty often drove the couple through school areas in Woodstock, talking about snatching a young girl. "I just remember looking out the window a lot and always seeing schools."

* Rafferty stopped at two houses of single mothers he knew and explained how to get into the bedrooms to tie someone up and take someone.

* After Tori was pushed into his car, Rafferty "made a comment she wasn't young enough."

* On her nightmarish ride to the killing scene outside of Mount Forest, Tori promised not to tell anyone if they'd let her go. "She'd just tell her mom she went to her cousin's house to play," McClintic recalled.

* It was clear Rafferty was naked from the waist down when he raped Tori in the back seat of the car, "because his legs were hanging out the vehicle."

* Rafferty had clothes to change into after the killing and directed the disposal of old clothes. Rafferty said, " we should never speak of this again.' "

* The pair drove to Cambridge and cleaned the car, inside and out, at a car wash.

* On the way home to Woodstock, Rafferty directed her to cut out parts of the car's back seat where he saw some spots that weren't cleaned off. She used her hands to dig out the foam underneath.

* He bought her a bottle of blonde hair dye, which she didn't use.

* She helped a neighbour hand out the flyers saying Tori was missing.

* To her concerns about taking a polygraph test, Rafferty said: " That's OK, because you didn't do anything. You have nothing to hide.' I replied that's right.' "

* Rafferty gave McClintic sample questions and answers to be used if police came calling about the surveillance video that showed Tori walking away.

http://www.stratfordbeaconherald.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3502371

dgfred
03-15-2012, 04:19 PM
AG, I have trouble believing just the statements of TLM alone as well (like a lot of trouble :eek:). I trust that the Crown has much more to corroborate her story than just her story alone.

:moo:

My problem with her version is she goes so quickly from being friendly in a way to Tori... then hitting her with a hammer. No mention of getting the hammer, or having it ready, or planning to do something with it. I mean... she's holding her hand one second, then is in a rage big enough to hit her at least 3 times with a hammer??? They are both monsters.

flipflop
03-15-2012, 04:19 PM
Thank you FF.

Not a question directed at you FF (but if you have the answer to this too, great!!) other than the picture of TLM on the bed at the motel, were there pictures or cctv footage of MTR entered in as evidence?

I think we will see more of MTR in regards to evidence in the upcoming chapters of this case.

MR really seemed to have watched his step, so far, if we take TLM's testimony as truthful

-MR had TLM do the dirty work as he stayed out of the limelight when abducting VS
-at home depot he asked TLM to go into make the purchases. Why wouldn't he go in, he was the supposed contractor who would have found the tool aisle much faster, if questioned later he could have stated the purchase was work related. But he sent TLM in and he once again stayed out of the limelight.
-he used the ATM thinking that cash for home depot would not leave a trail
-he would not go to TLM's house to drop off the hair dye

Was he careful with trying to watch HIS step and talked the easily manipulated TLM into doing these things. Did he murder VS, did she murder VS or did they both. Did she say that MR did it because he did or to place the blame on him as she did it. Did she change her story because she told him she would and she still loves him???? So many questions that I do not think we will get the answers.

Some upcoming chapters should be quite interesting...I wonder if BA will reveal anything worthwhile at the drug purchase. I wonder what the connection to the MF area is with MR. The cross with the current chapter will give us an idea of where they are heading.

This case so far has boiled down to he said/she said....I hope some strong evidence will prove otherwise.

Sailor Bug
03-15-2012, 04:22 PM
To me it doesn't matter which one held the hammer or did the kicking. They are both guilty of abduction and murder. MR is most likely guilty of sex assault but for that they will need something more than the corroborating evidence such as the surveillance videos and the bank withdrawal.


TLM did not mention that MR used a condom so I am praying that there is some of his DNA somewhere with Tori's body and in the garbage bag.
If Tori went pee somewhere I am praying that somehow there is MR's dna in that path of grass. But that is wishful thinking on my part.

If he wasn't planning on killing her what was he going to do with her?

My opinion is that the Crown is doing a great job of backing up TLM's testimony with the photos of the clothes, hair dye, photos of clothing, Home Depot video etc. I am surprised we haven't seen the bank machine withdrawal video yet but that along with bank records will corroborate TLM's testimony.

bbm

Testing on Rafferty's car revealed blood on one of the doors matched Tori's DNA with near certainty, and blood on a gym bag was found to have a mixture of DNA profiles, of which Tori and Rafferty cannot be excluded, Gowdey said.

http://www.metronews.ca/toronto/canada/article/1115998--horrifying-details-of-alleged-murder-of-tori-stafford-laid-bare-for-jury?rand=967


Police seized his vehicle and found evidence of Tori's blood on the rear passenger door moulding. Blood found on a Goodlife fitness bag inside the car was a mixture of Tori and Rafferty's blood.

"Listen carefully to the DNA evidence. It will tell you a lot," Gowdey said.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/05/tori-stafford-murder-trial-gets-underway?%20court%20hears

Hello_Kitty
03-15-2012, 04:24 PM
She testified that:

* Rafferty stopped at two houses of single mothers he knew and explained how to get into the bedrooms to tie someone up and take someone.

http://www.stratfordbeaconherald.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3502371

Snipped and BBM:

Does this mean he personally knew the single mothers that lived there , or that he knew single mothers lived there?

flipflop
03-15-2012, 04:30 PM
Snipped and BBM:

Does this mean he personally knew the single mothers that lived there , or that he knew single mothers lived there?

it was stated somewhere that TLM pointed out one of the houses to LE, I hope the single mother can shed something helpful towards this case.

Sailor Bug
03-15-2012, 04:32 PM
To me it doesn't matter which one held the hammer or did the kicking. They are both guilty of abduction and murder. MR is most likely guilty of sex assault but for that they will need something more than the corroborating evidence such as the surveillance videos and the bank withdrawal.


TLM did not mention that MR used a condom so I am praying that there is some of his DNA somewhere with Tori's body and in the garbage bag.
If Tori went pee somewhere I am praying that somehow there is MR's dna in that path of grass. But that is wishful thinking on my part.

If he wasn't planning on killing her what was he going to do with her?

My opinion is that the Crown is doing a great job of backing up TLM's testimony with the photos of the clothes, hair dye, photos of clothing, Home Depot video etc. I am surprised we haven't seen the bank machine withdrawal video yet but that along with bank records will corroborate TLM's testimony.


bbm


Chapter 3: Guelph: Video surveillance and bank records detailing the events there
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/05/tori-stafford-murder-trial-gets-underway?%20court%20hears

matou
03-15-2012, 04:43 PM
http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_resize/?src=http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/14/mclintic12.jpg&size=640x480&quality=90

Transcription of this journal entry. If there are mistakes, please let me know.

Scenario 1-Mike not spotted

1.Q: Was that in fact you in the surveillance video?
A: Yes, it was.

2. Q: Do you often travel through the area?
A: I wouldn't call it a daily routine, however I do cross the area frequently.

3. Q: Is there a reason why you were in that area?
A: Yes, I take walks alone or I walk my dog there, I also have an aunt in the area.

4. Q: Do you know Victoria Stafford?
A: I don't know her, however had an encounter with her a few days earlier while I was walking my dog.

Q: What happened durring (sp) this encounter?
A: SHe wanted to pet my dog, which I had no problem with. That was the duration of the encounter. 3-5 min. I then continued on my way.

Q: The day the video was captured why were you walking with Victoria?
A: I had gone to see my aunt however got no answer. I then headed home, passing Oliver Stephens, were I saw the young lady, being polite, I said hi, as did she, as well as asking me were (sp.) Precious (my dog) was. I explained that I didn't bring her. This conversation continued as we walked and crossed the street.

captaincanada
03-15-2012, 04:48 PM
My problem with her version is she goes so quickly from being friendly in a way to Tori... then hitting her with a hammer. No mention of getting the hammer, or having it ready, or planning to do something with it. I mean... she's holding her hand one second, then is in a rage big enough to hit her at least 3 times with a hammer??? They are both monsters.

I know, it's completely bizarre. There are a few ways to look at this:

(1) She's trying somehow to appear to everyone that she isn't the complete monster that she really is (her comments to Tori about not letting anything happen to her and her being friendly to her)

(2) She is completely psychotic and possibly schizoprenic or has multiple personalities and really did snap into a rage.

(3) She was so drugged up she doesn't remember anything other than what MTR told her. (perhaps MTR did the killing but convinced a drugged up TLM that she really did it).


I personally think she's only telling some of the truth. She feels remorse so she has thrown in scripted things to try to make others feel that she was nice to Tori at some moments, which is bizarre considering the completely contradicting actions of her.

I don't think we'll ever find out the complete truth but I feel for certain that MR can't get out of this one. Even though it appears he's done everything to try to point to TLM (her abducting, her buying the hammer etc.) he's too heavily involved by matter of fact. He's got his blood on the gym bag mixed with Tori's and he was driving the car. There is no "out" for him.

captaincanada
03-15-2012, 04:55 PM
What really bothers me is how nonchalant they were with Tori in the back of the car. I mean, stopping at Tim Hortons and Home Depot with an eight yr old kidnapped child in the back seat? It breaks my heart to think of Tori in the car in these parking lots and all it would take is her to start screaming at the first person who walked by the car. Way too risky of MR and TLM if you ask me.

puppyraiser
03-15-2012, 05:07 PM
Maybe I missed something along the way, but I don't recall hearing/reading either one had taken a change of clothes and yet TLM says they both changed their clothing/footwear on the way back to Woodstock. IF TLM was wearing some of MR's clothes and shoes and he changed as well then it might stand to reason that he was prepared for something happening that might warrant extra clothing, perhaps? IMO

matou
03-15-2012, 05:08 PM
http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_resize/?src=http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/14/mclintic13.jpg&size=640x480&quality=90

Transcription.

Q: How long did you walk with Victoria?
A: We parted ways at the corner of the Caressant Care Retirement Home on Fyfe, were (sp) I turned right and she continued on.

Q: What happened next?
A: I ran into a friend of mine, who knows that is one of the main routes I take that time in the afternoon. If I'm not home, then I'm usually walking.

Q: When you saw your friend what did you do?
A: I got in the car and we went to Guelph so he could visit his friend briefly. As well as stopped at Tim Hortons

Q: Where did you go from there?
A: From there we went to Hamilton were (sp) he pointed out the studio Fred Astair or something. We drove around, a bit before heading to Oakville, where Mike showed me another studio which he could have been involved in. We parked the car and checked out the shops on lakeshore, just window shopping cause we had no money from there we came back to Woodstock, and Mike dropped me off at hoe because by this time it was late and that was it.

Salem
03-15-2012, 05:12 PM
I can't believe she would take the fall for a child adbuctor, molester, rapist and murderer. SHe would be fine with him "out there" and available to continue his behaviour on other possible victims. That just disgusts me in additition to everything else. He shows her homes of single moms he knows to suggest tying them up and he "has a life?" WTH???? JMO

I can see her taking the fall - she participated so she probably doesn't see him as all those things, kwim? She sees him as some wonderful guy that gave her "a bit of love." If she were to see him as others do, she would have to see herself that way and it is obvious from her testimony that she cannot or will not accept her true part in what happened. She makes excuses for herself so she can feel like she "helped" the police and was kind to Tori - what a bunch of *!*?.

And the part about the "single moms"? That's horrifying. I note with interest that it wasn't about "single women" but single MOMS. So what was he thinking? The conversation, allegedly, was about taking the mom, but why a mom? Why not just a woman? I won't type what I think, but I find it telling that he was interested in "moms" and not just "women."

Salem

Salem
03-15-2012, 05:17 PM
AG, I have trouble believing just the statements of TLM alone as well (like a lot of trouble :eek:). I trust that the Crown has much more to corroborate her story than just her story alone.

:moo:

Just a note - eye witness testimony is DIRECT testimony. NOT circumstantial testimony. It is up to the jury or the finder of fact to determine for themselves how much to believe or disbelieve the witness, but the testimony is considered evidence.

I'm not yelling up there in caps, just trying to clarify :) that whether we believe TLM or not, her testimony is solid evidence that the jury will weigh when they deliberate.

Salem

matou
03-15-2012, 05:18 PM
http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_resize/?src=http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/14/mclintic14.jpg&size=640x480&quality=90

Transcription

Q: So you were unaware that Victoria had been been reported missing?
A: Yes, until the next morning, I saw helicopters overhead and saw alot of police, while taking my dogs out. My neighbour then filled me in on the situation.

matou
03-15-2012, 05:36 PM
http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_resize/?src=http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/14/mclintic15.jpg&size=640x480&quality=90

Transcription

Mike:

So your probably wondering why I wrote you a letter when I could just talk to you, well that's pretty much it. I can't seem to verbalize what I want to say, so here we are...first of all, I want you to know that I do care about you, alot, and that's difficult for me, I've struggled with emotions for a while, but let me expand on that statement a little bit, because it can be interpretted different ways. What I mean when I say that is that I basically taught myself not to feel certain things as I was growing up. Mainly to survive. I basically went through life being pissed of (?) all the time but on January 14 2009 I finally broke, I cried for the first time in 9 years. At the time I didn't really know what to take from it, not until a few months down the road did I realize that was my breakthrough point. that I would soon be experiencing a tidal wave of different emotions.

Hello_Kitty
03-15-2012, 05:38 PM
Maybe I missed something along the way, but I don't recall hearing/reading either one had taken a change of clothes and yet TLM says they both changed their clothing/footwear on the way back to Woodstock. IF TLM was wearing some of MR's clothes and shoes and he changed as well then it might stand to reason that he was prepared for something happening that might warrant extra clothing, perhaps? IMO

Not necessarily. He was a gym member, so it would be logical (IMO) to have extra pairs of this and that. In my car, I always carry boots, extra shoes, extra pants, etc and some blankets.

flipflop
03-15-2012, 05:40 PM
I can see her taking the fall - she participated so she probably doesn't see him as all those things, kwim? She sees him as some wonderful guy that gave her "a bit of love." If she were to see him as others do, she would have to see herself that way and it is obvious from her testimony that she cannot or will not accept her true part in what happened. She makes excuses for herself so she can feel like she "helped" the police and was kind to Tori - what a bunch of *!*?.

And the part about the "single moms"? That's horrifying. I note with interest that it wasn't about "single women" but single MOMS. So what was he thinking? The conversation, allegedly, was about taking the mom, but why a mom? Why not just a woman? I won't type what I think, but I find it telling that he was interested in "moms" and not just "women."

Salem

I agree with you in regards to your 1st paragraph...JMO she was head over heals for this guy, he was showing her love and attention. She obviously saw him as a successful man with a job, a car, a life...she probably has not had someone like this in her life, meeting him must have felt like winning the jackpot!!! So yes I can see her too taking the fall for him.

As for your single mom comment....after hearing about this info from TLM's testimony, I was not thinking of the mom being kidnapped, but her child. I wonder how "young" her children are or were at the time.

Hello_Kitty
03-15-2012, 05:45 PM
And the part about the "single moms"? That's horrifying. I note with interest that it wasn't about "single women" but single MOMS. So what was he thinking? The conversation, allegedly, was about taking the mom, but why a mom? Why not just a woman? I won't type what I think, but I find it telling that he was interested in "moms" and not just "women."

Salem

SBM

My theory on that, is he wanted to tie the mom up so she wouldn't struggle while he took the kid? JMO That's how I read what Matou posted, I dunno maybe I'm misreading it. Who knows what he meant.

brighidin
03-15-2012, 05:47 PM
Thank you Matou for posting and transcribing the evidence.

flipflop
03-15-2012, 05:48 PM
SBM

My theory on that, is he wanted to tie the mom up so she wouldn't struggle while he took the kid? JMO That's how I read what Matou posted, I dunno maybe I'm misreading it. Who knows what he meant.

He will deny saying it anyways, so we will never know!

~n/t~
03-15-2012, 06:00 PM
I think she's telling the truth about the abduction and murder. Whether or not she's hiding the extent of her role in planning it, her motives, or what she got out of it, I don't know, and I don't really care. I suspect that TLM has spent most of her life making it up as she goes, and that "the whole truth" is a foreign concept to her. So even if she were entirely cooperative and desperate to reveal all, I'm not sure she'd be able to do it -- drug-induced haze aside.

I can't think of any genuinely complicated case where anything like the "whole truth" is available Offenders lie about motivations, degree of responsibility, details of their actions, role of victims, and on and on. I can't stomach any extra detail at this point. But I can't imagine TLM lying about that day itself -- too much corroborating evidence and the sheer weirdness of some of it. I really do think it's as close to the "whole truth" as we're gonna get -- especially with the additional evidence in place.

I think she'll do poorly in the cross though. Not that it will make a difference (I sincerely hope).

s


bbm...I totally agree with you. I just finished listening to the impact statement by Rusty Sneiderman's brother (Georgia Daycare shooting). He mentions not ever really knowing the whole truth even after the trial is over. The "why" lingers forever. Yes people can speculate but for cold blooded murderers to do this to another human being is something that those of us who are not of that mindset will ever understand.

I truly believe that is what Tori's family is faced with. The "why"? And we are too. Sadly, I don't think we will ever know.

matou
03-15-2012, 06:18 PM
Not necessarily. He was a gym member, so it would be logical (IMO) to have extra pairs of this and that. In my car, I always carry boots, extra shoes, extra pants, etc and some blankets.

What size shoes did he wear and were the shoes he gave TLM actually his size? TIA

matou
03-15-2012, 06:20 PM
SBM

My theory on that, is he wanted to tie the mom up so she wouldn't struggle while he took the kid? JMO That's how I read what Matou posted, I dunno maybe I'm misreading it. Who knows what he meant.

Well I think there was a reason he memorized the floor plans of the single mothers he knew. Why not the single women he knew? JMO

Sailor Bug
03-15-2012, 06:25 PM
http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_resize/?src=http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/14/mclintic15.jpg&size=640x480&quality=90

Transcription

Mike:

So your probably wondering why I wrote you a letter when I could just talk to you, well that's pretty much it. I can't seem to verbalize what I want to say, so here we are...first of all, I want you to know that I do care about you, alot, and that's difficult for me, I've struggled with emotions for a while, but let me expand on that statement a little bit, because it can be interpretted different ways. What I mean when I say that is that I basically taught myself not to feel certain things as I was growing up. Mainly to survive. I basically went through life being pissed of (?) all the time but on January 14 2009 I finally broke, I cried for the first time in 9 years. At the time I didn't really know what to take from it, not until a few months down the road did I realize that was my breakthrough point. that I would soon be experiencing a tidal wave of different emotions.

bbm

She cried for the first time in 9 years on Jan 14/09
Meaning she would have been close to lil Tori's age...the last time she cried.

I wonder if she was sexually abused at a young age??

Sailor Bug
03-15-2012, 06:33 PM
What size shoes did he wear and were the shoes he gave TLM actually his size? TIA

Not sure on the size of MR's feet however I do remember from an article that the shoes he gave TLM were his size and they were to big for her.

jmo

Hello_Kitty
03-15-2012, 06:36 PM
What size shoes did he wear and were the shoes he gave TLM actually his size? TIA

The Shaq shoes he gave her were size 9 - I assume he wears size 9 since they were his shoes :)

Hello_Kitty
03-15-2012, 06:38 PM
bbm

She cried for the first time in 9 years on Jan 14/09
Meaning she would have been close to lil Tori's age...the last time she cried.

I wonder if she was sexually abused at a young age??

If I remember correctly she was age 6.

Kittymama
03-15-2012, 06:44 PM
bbm

She cried for the first time in 9 years on Jan 14/09
Meaning she would have been close to lil Tori's age...the last time she cried.

I wonder if she was sexually abused at a young age??

Yeah, I'm pretty sure she was. If it hasn't been said outright, it's been hinted at and alluded to a lot. And that's awful, and tragic, and someone should have done something for her. However, it happens to other people and they don't murder little kids as a result.

I admit to having some sympathy for her. I have to keep reminding myself how vicious she is.

antiquegirl
03-15-2012, 06:53 PM
The Shaq shoes he gave her were size 9 - I assume he wears size 9 since they were his shoes :)

The Shaq shoes LE found were TLM's - the ones that were discarded on the highway.


AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

McClintic's shoes are the next slide. She got them while in a youth facility in 2008. tied her laces a special way, to slide them on and off



Adrian Morrow‏@AdrianMorrow

Looking at a photo. The white and blue Shaq runners have a distinct curly tie so she could slip them on and off like loafers


Adrian Morrow‏@AdrianMorrow

McClintic also took investigators back to side road 6, where she'd discarded her runners after the crime.


http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_resize/?src=http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/14/mclintic4.jpg&size=640x480&quality=90

MTR's shoes were three sizes too big for her and not the ones in the above picture.


AM980_Court

McClintic was wearing shoes three sizes too big, and a shirt from Rafferty's gym bag to keep warm.

I had been wondering how she managed to walk home from the variety store in shoes that were three sizes too big ... and why Carol never found this strange.


AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court

The next slide is Starlight Variety, where Rafferty dropped her off April 8th. She walked home.


http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_resize/?src=http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/14/mclintic22.jpg&size=640x480&quality=90

Hello_Kitty
03-15-2012, 06:55 PM
The Shaq shoes LE found were TLM's - the ones that were discarded on the highway.

Ah my bad, oops.

matou
03-15-2012, 06:57 PM
The Shaq shoes LE found were TLM's - the ones that were discarded on the highway.

Ah my bad, oops.

http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_resize/?src=http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/14/mclintic4.jpg&size=640x480&quality=90

I don't see any blood on these shoes. JMO If she bludgeoned Tori to death, kicked her with these shoes and transported her body, wouldn't there be blood?

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/14/19503411.html

Flowercb
03-15-2012, 07:16 PM
To me it doesn't matter which one held the hammer or did the kicking. They are both guilty of abduction and murder. MR is most likely guilty of sex assault but for that they will need something more than the corroborating evidence such as the surveillance videos and the bank withdrawal.


TLM did not mention that MR used a condom so I am praying that there is some of his DNA somewhere with Tori's body and in the garbage bag.
If Tori went pee somewhere I am praying that somehow there is MR's dna in that path of grass. But that is wishful thinking on my part.

If he wasn't planning on killing her what was he going to do with her?
My opinion is that the Crown is doing a great job of backing up TLM's testimony with the photos of the clothes, hair dye, photos of clothing, Home Depot video etc. I am surprised we haven't seen the bank machine withdrawal video yet but that along with bank records will corroborate TLM's testimony.

Exactly if he wasn't planning on killing her what was he going to do with her? That's why it's hard to believe that he did not plan on it. Did he not know why TLM was going into Home Depot? It was his car--I doubt anyone else but him was driving it. :moo::twocents:

flipflop
03-15-2012, 07:17 PM
http://storage.canoe.ca/v1/dynamic_resize/?src=http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/14/mclintic4.jpg&size=640x480&quality=90

I don't see any blood on these shoes. JMO If she bludgeoned Tori to death, kicked her with these shoes and transported her body, wouldn't there be blood?

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/14/19503411.html

Good thought about the blood. From her testimony, I would picture some pretty badly blood stained shoes. IIRC They were in a ditch on the side of sideroad 6 for a few weeks. There was snow on the ground from the day before. With it being cold at night, the area still would have had frost each night. With it being spring, Im sure it rained on those shoes as well. With all of the precipitation, the majority of the blood would wash away, but I am surprised there are not even faint blood stains visible, if she was actually the one to do the actions as she said. TLM also messed up the tired tracks in the snow with these shoes on, so Im assuming alot of the blood washed off then.

antiquegirl
03-15-2012, 07:17 PM
Yeah, I'm pretty sure she was. If it hasn't been said outright, it's been hinted at and alluded to a lot. And that's awful, and tragic, and someone should have done something for her. However, it happens to other people and they don't murder little kids as a result.

I admit to having some sympathy for her. I have to keep reminding myself how vicious she is.

ITA.

Hearsay, but here it is:

"She (Terri) told me she was sexually assaulted when she was about 4 or 5,"

Terri-Lynne's mother, Carol *********, confirmed her daughter had been molested as a child. "She told me but did not really understand what had happened. I did not let this man (near her) again."

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario/article/638603--teen-had-tough-life-growing-up

matou
03-15-2012, 07:23 PM
Good thought about the blood. From her testimony, I would picture some pretty badly blood stained shoes. IIRC They were in a ditch on the side of sideroad 6 for a few weeks. There was snow on the ground from the day before. With it being cold at night, the area still would have had frost each night. With it being spring, Im sure it rained on those shoes as well. With all of the precipitation, the majority of the blood would wash away, but I am surprised there are not even faint blood stains visible, if she was actually the one to do the actions as she said. TLM also messed up the tired tracks in the snow with these shoes on, so Im assuming alot of the blood washed off then.

I thought about that too but these shoes look brand new with no mud or staining from being exposed to the elements, nothing. I find that weird. JMO

antiquegirl
03-15-2012, 07:24 PM
Good thought about the blood. From her testimony, I would picture some pretty badly blood stained shoes. IIRC They were in a ditch on the side of sideroad 6 for a few weeks. There was snow on the ground from the day before. With it being cold at night, the area still would have had frost each night. With it being spring, Im sure it rained on those shoes as well. With all of the precipitation, the majority of the blood would wash away, but I am surprised there are not even faint blood stains visible, if she was actually the one to do the actions as she said. TLM also messed up the tired tracks in the snow with these shoes on, so Im assuming alot of the blood washed off then.

Not only that, but it was said that she got these shoes the year before. There is no blood, no dirt, no wear. They look brand new. I often suspect that some of the photos LE gives to the media show items identical to what they have stored in the evidence room and not the actual items seized. But that's JMO.

Hello_Kitty
03-15-2012, 07:26 PM
Good thought about the blood. From her testimony, I would picture some pretty badly blood stained shoes. IIRC They were in a ditch on the side of sideroad 6 for a few weeks. There was snow on the ground from the day before. With it being cold at night, the area still would have had frost each night. With it being spring, Im sure it rained on those shoes as well. With all of the precipitation, the majority of the blood would wash away, but I am surprised there are not even faint blood stains visible, if she was actually the one to do the actions as she said. TLM also messed up the tired tracks in the snow with these shoes on, so Im assuming alot of the blood washed off then.

The fact is also, they look pretty clean to me. And of course as of now we have no idea if they found MR's shoes.

flipflop
03-15-2012, 07:32 PM
AM980 London ‏ @AM980News
Tori Stafford had to live it, we’re being asked only to listen. Why graphic testimony matters
http://www.am980.ca/Blog/NathanSmith/BlogEntry.aspx?BlogEntryID=10360474

There was no one around in a rural area of M.F. to hear Tori's screams, and cries for help, on April 8th 2009.

She has an audience now, and should not be ignored.

Tori had to live it, we're being asked only to listen


Wow, good article!

Hello_Kitty
03-15-2012, 07:32 PM
Not only that, but it was said that she got these shoes the year before. There is no blood, no dirt, no wear. They look brand new. I often suspect that some of the photos LE gives to the media show items identical to what they have stored in the evidence room and not the actual items seized. But that's JMO.

BBM

Yeah, and no wear!! Maybe you're right, maybe these are just dummy shoes.

Kamille
03-15-2012, 07:35 PM
I thought about that too but these shoes look brand new with no mud or staining from being exposed to the elements, nothing. I find that weird. JMO

Looking at the material of the shoes, I could see them actually looking cleaner after having spent some time in snow and rain. And since the murder took place with a garbage bag over the victim, would there have been much blood on the ground or on anyone's shoes?

MOO

Kamille
03-15-2012, 07:36 PM
BBM

Yeah, and no wear!! Maybe you're right, maybe these are just dummy shoes.

These are supposed to be year old rather unique to TLM shoes so I don't think they'd be showing dummy evidence to a jury.

MOO

nettie_82
03-15-2012, 07:38 PM
I wonder if they had drugged Victoria and that is why they were able to take the risks they did in driving through the parking lot at Home Depot, etc. I have to wonder why the Crown hasn't asked her this?! She may have been passed out under that coat so they really had nothing to worry about?!

Hello_Kitty
03-15-2012, 07:38 PM
These are supposed to be year old rather unique to TLM shoes so I don't think they'd be showing dummy evidence to a jury.

MOO

I mean to say of course dummies to the public :) But you must admit there is no wear on the shoes either.

matou
03-15-2012, 07:40 PM
BBM

Yeah, and no wear!! Maybe you're right, maybe these are just dummy shoes.

They look like the shoes in the Home Depot video to me. I'll find the video.

Kamille
03-15-2012, 07:41 PM
He will deny saying it anyways, so we will never know!

Regarding the house with the single mom. TLM supposedly led LE to it. And I assume they checked with the occupant to verify that she knew MR. Now how would TLM be able to do that if that part of the story isn't true? He just randomly drove around town and pointed out the houses of his single mom friends for fun? And parked in front of them long enough for TLM to remember which ones they were? Well unfortunately she couldn't lead them to the second one.

I hope that single mom is going to testify to knowing MR and how, as freaked out as I'm sure she would be about it all.

MOO

matou
03-15-2012, 07:42 PM
Looking at the material of the shoes, I could see them actually looking cleaner after having spent some time in snow and rain. And since the murder took place with a garbage bag over the victim, would there have been much blood on the ground or on anyone's shoes?

MOO

She said there was blood and he wiped up with her coat. Would that have only been from the rape? I have to think there was blood spatter. JMO

matou
03-15-2012, 07:45 PM
Home depot video surveillance. It looks like the same shoes to me. JMO

http://www.lfpress.com/video/video-of-terri-lynne-mcclintic-at-home-depot/1508251643001

dilbert
03-15-2012, 07:49 PM
There is a different angle view of her shoes here, there is wear on the inside heel part.
#43
http://www.am980.ca/Other/McClintic.pdf


In the PDF file, you can see:

Page 1: Terri-Lynne McClintic’s debit transaction record from the night she met Micheal Rafferty.

Page 2-4: Shots from the Super 8 Motel, where McClintic and Rafferty went to have sex.

Page 5-7: Shots of McClintic’s mother’s cell phone, which she used to contact Rafferty. His name in contact was “Mike Tzs Man”, McClintic’s mother calls her “T”.

Page 8: Aerial shot of Woodstock the crown used to have McClintic explain to the jury where key events in the case happened. OSPS is Oliver Stephens Public School. CASS is College Avenue Secondary School. CCRH is Caressant Care Retirement Home.

Page 9: A home in Woodstock McClintic told the court looks like one Rafferty told her he knew the layout of, and, according to McClintic he could easily “take someone”.

Page 10: A school McClintic told the court she and Rafferty drove by.

Page 11: An overhead shot of Woodstock, pointing out places McClintic went on April 8th, 2009.

Page 12: The Community Care Employment Centre. McClintic used the computer there.

Page 13-14: A Facebook message McClintic sent from the Community Care Employment Centre.

Page 15-16: More aerial shots of Woodstock.

Page 17-22: Photos taken from the area McClintic said she waited for a chid to come out of Oliver Stephens Public School.

Page 23-24: Shots of the Caressant Care Retirement Home parking lot.

Page 25-27: Overhead shots of Woodstock, and a map of the 401 between Woodstock and Guelph.

Page 28: Photo of the home in Guelph Rafferty bought percocets from. McClintic said she and Tori waited in the car.

Page 29-36: Shots from the security camera at the Guelph Home Depot. McClintic purchased a hammer and garbage bags.

Page 37: McClintic’s drawing of the scene of the sexual assault and murder of Tori Stafford.

Page 38: McClintic’s second drawing of the crime scene. McClintic was trying to help police find Tori’s body.

Page 39: An artist’s rendition of the house near the crime scene.

Page 40-41: Shots of the area where McClintic and Rafferty threw away their shoes.

Page 42-44: Photos of the shoes McClintic threw away after Tori was murdered.

Page 45-47: McClintic’s drawing of the knife she says Rafferty told her to use to cut portions of his back seat out. Then a picture of a similar looking knife. McClintic says Rafferty told her to throw the parts of the back seat out the window as they drove on the 401.

Page 48: Starlight Variety. Not far from McClintic’s Woodstock home. Rafferty dropped her off there after they returned from Cambridge.

Page 49-50: Photos of McClintic’s former home in Woodstock.

Page 51: A photo of the telephone pole Rafferty left hair dye next too. He wanted McClintic to change her appearance.

Page 52-58: Photos from inside McClintic’s former home. Includes pictures of the box of hair dye and the shoes, sweater and shorts she says Rafferty gave her after Tori was killed.

Page 59: A missing persons flier with Tori’s photo on it. McClintic said she helped hand them out in Woodstock while Tori was considered missing.

Page 60-63: Images from McClintic’s notebook. Includes her notes on what to tell the police if she is questioned about Tori. She told the court the ideas in the book were Rafferty’s.

Page 64: A note to Rafferty written by McClintic.

Page 65: More notes McClintic made on what to tell the police if she was interviewed.

http://www.am980.ca/channels/news/local/Story.aspx?ID=1670440

flipflop
03-15-2012, 07:51 PM
Home depot video surveillance. It looks like the same shoes to me. JMO

http://www.lfpress.com/video/video-of-terri-lynne-mcclintic-at-home-depot/1508251643001

Some were wondering if these are the shoes worn by TLM or if they are an identical pair for media release pics. All you can see in the video is that she is wearing white and blue shoes.

Looking back through the evidence pics, many items are tagged with an evidence number...I don't see one on these shoes. The knife, hair dye and a couple other pics show tags.

matou
03-15-2012, 07:54 PM
I can't believe they released the photo of the house of the single mom. wow. JMO

ETA I suppose this info was released with her permission. JMO

nettie_82
03-15-2012, 07:55 PM
She said there was blood and he wiped up with her coat. Would that have only been from the rape? I have to think there was blood spatter. JMO

Read from Bottom up:

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
The garbage bag only covered Toris head. McClintic says Tori made a gurgling noise inside the garbage bag.

13 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
McClintic says she hit Tori with the hammer three times. She is crying on the stand and not speaking.

13 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
McClintic hit Tori with the hammer after the garbage bag was put on her head. Gowdey asks how many times. McClintic breaks down.

13 Mar AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
McClintic says a garbage bag from the trunk was placed on Tori s head.

Sorry to be graphic again, but this explains why there may not have been blood splatter. Again, sorry to post this again.

Kamille
03-15-2012, 07:56 PM
She said there was blood and he wiped up with her coat. Would that have only been from the rape? I have to think there was blood spatter. JMO

That's how I understood it Matou. One of those tweets was pretty graphic. I had to stop reading for a while after that. :(

ETA: Meaning the blood clean up was from the rape. The tweet specified what area of his body he was cleaning.

MOO

Kamille
03-15-2012, 07:57 PM
I can't believe they released the photo of the house of the single mom. wow. JMO

ETA I suppose this info was released with her permission. JMO

Good chance she moved?

MOO

flipflop
03-15-2012, 07:57 PM
There is a different angle view of her shoes here, there is wear on the inside heel part.
#43
http://www.am980.ca/Other/McClintic.pdf
.

http://www.am980.ca/channels/news/local/Story.aspx?ID=1670440

In the link above, there is a pic of 2 pairs of shoes with evidence tags of what looks like mens shoes, both appear to be the same size.

The pdf states that this pic of the 2 pairs of shoes (#54) states that
# 52-58: Photos from inside McClintic’s former home. Includes pictures of the box of hair dye and the shoes, sweater and shorts she says Rafferty gave her after Tori was killed.

Im puzzled, if TLM threw away the blue and white shoes, she would have the shoes that MR gave her to wear, but why would she have yet another pair in her possession that were gathered as evidence????? Are these the ones that MR was wearing, why would she have them?


Also a pic of a white American Eagle shirt, I wonder if this is the white shirt that MR was wearing or one that MR gave TLM to wear??

dilbert
03-15-2012, 07:59 PM
#9 is the housing complex where Tara used to live, although, those may not be any of the ones she lived in. It's rent to income geared housing too, so probably several single mothers live there.

MOO

dilbert
03-15-2012, 08:04 PM
or is it the supposed single mom's home???

Tara is a single mom. (but I think she lived in a unit facing Fyfe Ave, I think the ones pictured in the evidence photo faces Parkinson Rd.)

MOO

flipflop
03-15-2012, 08:13 PM
Tara is a single mom. (but I think she lived in a unit facing Fyfe Ave, the ones pictured in the evidence photo faces Parkinson Rd.

I know TM is a single mom.

I found my answer in the pdf for the said pic

Page 9: A home in Woodstock McClintic told the court looks like one Rafferty told her he knew the layout of, and, according to McClintic he could easily “take someone”.

dilbert
03-15-2012, 08:18 PM
I know TM is a single mom.

I found my answer in the pdf for the said pic

Page 9: A home in Woodstock McClintic told the court looks like one Rafferty told her he knew the layout of, and, according to McClintic he could easily “take someone”.

Right, and what I'm saying is #9 was taken at the same housing complex Tara used to live in, whether it's the same unit, who knows? KWIM??

matou
03-15-2012, 08:19 PM
The laces on the shoes are spotless. Are these really the shoes?

pg. 43 http://www.am980.ca/Other/McClintic.pdf

dilbert
03-15-2012, 08:21 PM
The laces on the shoes are spotless. Are these really the shoes?

pg. 43 http://www.am980.ca/Other/McClintic.pdf

Why would they show a photo of shoes claiming to be the ones TLM threw away if they weren't her shoes? TLM testified in court saying they were hers.

flipflop
03-15-2012, 08:22 PM
Pic 54

Im puzzled, if TLM threw away the blue and white shoes, she would have the shoes that MR gave her to wear, but why would she have yet another pair in her possession that were gathered as evidence????? Are these the ones that MR was wearing, why would she have them?

matou
03-15-2012, 08:22 PM
That housing unit is right next to Oliver Stephens public school and shows me that he was trolling for single moms and, even better, single moms who lived near an elementary school. JMO

matou
03-15-2012, 08:23 PM
How can shoes that were exposed to the elements for 6 weeks be spotless, even the laces? JMO

dilbert
03-15-2012, 08:26 PM
How can shoes that were exposed to the elements for 6 weeks be spotless, even the laces? JMO

There's a grocery bag in the photo, maybe they were in a bag all that time? Who knows..

nettie_82
03-15-2012, 08:27 PM
How can shoes that were exposed to the elements for 6 weeks be spotless, even the laces? JMO

Maybe they were placed in garbage bags too?

matou
03-15-2012, 08:29 PM
There's a grocery bag in the photo, maybe they were in a bag all that time? Who knows..

That bag is clean too.

dilbert
03-15-2012, 08:31 PM
That bag is clean too.

Yes, it is. :)

JayFriend
03-15-2012, 08:31 PM
Some were wondering if these are the shoes worn by TLM or if they are an identical pair for media release pics. All you can see in the video is that she is wearing white and blue shoes.

Looking back through the evidence pics, many items are tagged with an evidence number...I don't see one on these shoes. The knife, hair dye and a couple other pics show tags.

How would forensics extract DNA from a pair of running shoes that have been covered with melting snow for weeks? Maybe they cook them and after they're done, they look like new. Just guessing.

dilbert
03-15-2012, 08:34 PM
How would forensics extract DNA from a pair of running shoes that have been covered with melting snow for weeks? Maybe they cook them and after they're done, they look like new. Just guessing.

Cook them?? Wouldn't the heat degrade any DNA?

http://bitesizebio.com/articles/5-ways-to-damage-dna/

JayFriend
03-15-2012, 08:43 PM
Cook them?? Wouldn't the heat degrade any DNA?

http://bitesizebio.com/articles/5-ways-to-damage-dna/
Yes, I think I meant soak them.

flipflop
03-15-2012, 08:51 PM
How would forensics extract DNA from a pair of running shoes that have been covered with melting snow for weeks? Maybe they cook them and after they're done, they look like new. Just guessing.

If TLM tossed them out the window, they would have landed on snow, as the area had a snowfall on April 6th. I don't recall any significant snowfalls after that date.

matou
03-15-2012, 09:00 PM
The trial of an Ontario man accused of abducting, sexually assaulting and murdering eight-year-old Victoria (Tori) Stafford will resume Friday.

The 12-member jury hearing the case was given a break Thursday so the court could hear a number of legal arguments. The contents of these legal arguments are under an automatic publication ban.

Read more: http://www.canada.com/news/After+week+grim+testimony+Stafford+jury+back+work+ Friday/6309505/story.html#ixzz1pEjJQTcP

antiquegirl
03-15-2012, 09:08 PM
If TLM tossed them out the window, they would have landed on snow, as the area had a snowfall on April 6th. I don't recall any significant snowfalls after that date.

April 2009 climate in Mt. Forest. Above zero temperatures for all days with precipitation after the 9th.

http://www.tutiempo.net/en/Climate/Mount_Forest/04-2009/716310.htm

And for May 2009:

http://www.tutiempo.net/en/Climate/Mount_Forest/05-2009/716310.htm

Tink
03-15-2012, 09:42 PM
Just jumping in to say that I am finding this trial very tough. It is just breaking my heart what happened to that little girl.

Tink

nonfictionrocks
03-16-2012, 12:46 AM
Right, and what I'm saying is #9 was taken at the same housing complex Tara used to live in, whether it's the same unit, who knows? KWIM??

Are you suggesting perhaps TLM may have picked out a unit in this complex because if need be, she would be able to describe the layout because she had been in one or two here before? The layouts would all be somewhat the same, maybe just reversed. She was not able to find the other place she said he showed her.

dilbert
03-16-2012, 12:49 AM
Are you suggesting perhaps TLM may have picked out a unit in this complex because if need be, she would be able to describe the layout because she had been in one or two here before? The layouts would all be somewhat the same, maybe just reversed. She was not able to find the other place she said he showed her.

:shush:

Tugela
03-16-2012, 01:04 AM
What really bothers me is how nonchalant they were with Tori in the back of the car. I mean, stopping at Tim Hortons and Home Depot with an eight yr old kidnapped child in the back seat? It breaks my heart to think of Tori in the car in these parking lots and all it would take is her to start screaming at the first person who walked by the car. Way too risky of MR and TLM if you ask me.

What makes you think that Rafferty and/or Tori were in the car at that point, other than what McClintic claims? It sounds somewhat unlikely to me.

Tugela
03-16-2012, 01:14 AM
Exactly if he wasn't planning on killing her what was he going to do with her? That's why it's hard to believe that he did not plan on it. Did he not know why TLM was going into Home Depot? It was his car--I doubt anyone else but him was driving it. :moo::twocents:

Maybe, but Tori may not have been in it. If McClintic had stashed her somewhere after the abduction, Rafferty could argue that he didn't know anything about what was going on. He might even say that she had the car that day, or most of it, and that he had no idea who was driving it. To overcome that the prosecution will have to present some evidence to circumvent those arguments.

The problem for the prosecution as I see it is that so far there has been no evidence presented actually connecting Rafferty to the crime - it has all been McClintic's allegations, which we have seen has changed between confession and the trial.

Tugela
03-16-2012, 01:19 AM
[I]She testified that:


* To her concerns about taking a polygraph test, Rafferty said: " That's OK, because you didn't do anything. You have nothing to hide.' I replied that's right.' "


http://www.stratfordbeaconherald.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3502371

Except smash the kids head in with a hammer? That doesn't sound very consistent to me. This woman is lying.

flipflop
03-16-2012, 01:27 AM
What makes you think that Rafferty and/or Tori were in the car at that point, other than what McClintic claims? It sounds somewhat unlikely to me.

When TLM came out of home depot...who was driving the car that drove over to pick her up???? My guess is MR with VS in the backseat.
TLM said they drove to the MF area where VS's remains were found, LE has evidence that MR's phone was used in this location. So if you are saying MR was not in the car, who do you think was driving?

flipflop
03-16-2012, 01:31 AM
Maybe, but Tori may not have been in it. If McClintic had stashed her somewhere after the abduction, Rafferty could argue that he didn't know anything about what was going on. He might even say that she had the car that day, or most of it, and that he had no idea who was driving it. To overcome that the prosecution will have to present some evidence to circumvent those arguments.

The problem for the prosecution as I see it is that so far there has been no evidence presented actually connecting Rafferty to the crime - it has all been McClintic's allegations, which we have seen has changed between confession and the trial.

From reading the headers of the chapters (#4-11) they all seem to be geared towards MR...so I think they are building up to his involvement.

It was reported that MR's and VS's blood was found on his car.

Tugela
03-16-2012, 03:43 AM
When TLM came out of home depot...who was driving the car that drove over to pick her up???? My guess is MR with VS in the backseat.
TLM said they drove to the MF area where VS's remains were found, LE has evidence that MR's phone was used in this location. So if you are saying MR was not in the car, who do you think was driving?

He could be driving but not know what TLM had done. She could have stashed VS somewhere, and then gone to the Home Depot. There is nothing to show that it was him driving the car either, it could have been a third person. The video doesn't show him, so there is no direct link to the crime for him.

When the items she claims they disposed of where recovered, they only linked back to her, not him.

The change of story regarding who actually did the killing is not helping, thats for sure.

The prosecutions problem is going to be making that connection.

Tugela
03-16-2012, 03:50 AM
From reading the headers of the chapters (#4-11) they all seem to be geared towards MR...so I think they are building up to his involvement.

It was reported that MR's and VS's blood was found on his car.

Finding MR's blood in the car shouldn't be a surprise since it is his car. There is no immediate reason to believe that it is connected to the VS killing, if it exists. If TLM used the car to kidnap VS, then her blood might well be in the car. The problem will be to connect them since you would expect to find evidence of MR in the car irrespective of whether he was involved or not.

To make a connection they are going to have to find either VS's DNA on some personal item of his that shouldn't have it, or find MR's DNA on VS's person.

SmoothOperator
03-16-2012, 04:20 AM
The problem for the prosecution as I see it is that so far there has been no evidence presented actually connecting Rafferty to the crime - it has all been McClintic's allegations, which we have seen has changed between confession and the trial.
He could be driving but not know what TLM had done. She could have stashed VS somewhere, and then gone to the Home Depot. There is nothing to show that it was him driving the car either, it could have been a third person. The video doesn't show him, so there is no direct link to the crime for him.

When the items she claims they disposed of where recovered, they only linked back to her, not him.

The change of story regarding who actually did the killing is not helping, thats for sure.

The prosecutions problem is going to be making that connection.

You may wanna read up on the facts of the case..

Police seized his vehicle and found evidence of Tori's blood on the rear passenger door moulding. Blood found on a Goodlife fitness bag inside the car was a mixture of Tori and Rafferty's blood.

"Listen carefully to the DNA evidence. It will tell you a lot," Gowdey said.

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/03/05...0court%20hears

~n/t~
03-16-2012, 05:21 AM
He could be driving but not know what TLM had done. She could have stashed VS somewhere, and then gone to the Home Depot. There is nothing to show that it was him driving the car either, it could have been a third person. The video doesn't show him, so there is no direct link to the crime for him.

When the items she claims they disposed of where recovered, they only linked back to her, not him.

The change of story regarding who actually did the killing is not helping, thats for sure.

The prosecutions problem is going to be making that connection.

I don't think it'll be a problem. They just haven't gotten there yet. :)

~n/t~
03-16-2012, 05:23 AM
Right, and what I'm saying is #9 was taken at the same housing complex Tara used to live in, whether it's the same unit, who knows? KWIM??

Do you have a link confirming it was taken at the SAME housing complex? TIA

~n/t~
03-16-2012, 05:25 AM
Can someone please direct me to the list of verified locals for this case, if any. I looked at the front page but didn't see it. Thank you.

~n/t~
03-16-2012, 05:30 AM
The laces on the shoes are spotless. Are these really the shoes?

pg. 43 http://www.am980.ca/Other/McClintic.pdf

Were these the shoes she changed into AFTER the crime? Trying to catch up. I was caught up in the Rusty Sneiderman trial yesterday. TIA

matou
03-16-2012, 07:39 AM
Were these the shoes she changed into AFTER the crime? Trying to catch up. I was caught up in the Rusty Sneiderman trial yesterday. TIA

No, these are the shoes she threw out the window after leaving the location at Mt. Forest. MR's shoes were also thrown out. Her shoes look like the ones we can see in the Home Depot video. They look so clean though, after sitting either in a ditch or on the side of a road.

jmo

matou
03-16-2012, 07:41 AM
Can someone please direct me to the list of verified locals for this case, if any. I looked at the front page but didn't see it. Thank you.

There are no verified locals for this case that I know of. Many posters state that they are from the area or are familiar with the area. HTH

matou
03-16-2012, 07:46 AM
Hmmmm. I looked at an overhead view of the apartment complex near Oliver Stephen Public School at Fyfe and Parkinson and the units on Fyfe are much larger than the ones backing up to the school and others. I tought Tara lived somewhere on the Fyfe part of the complex. The floor plans could be similar but most homes are, in my opinion ie. if there are 2 stories, the bedrooms are on the second floor and there will be a bathroom upstairs, etc. JMO

matou
03-16-2012, 07:49 AM
I guess we'll find out soon enough if the resident of that unit testifies to knowing MR and if she was a single mom at the time. JMO

nursebeeme
03-16-2012, 08:24 AM
new thread is open:
trial thread: 3/16/2012 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community