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Salem
03-20-2012, 11:18 AM
Please remember the rules. Please post links where applicable. Also, please be careful with the discussion regarding potential drug use and or racist comments. We don't want to start rumors. The potential drug use has been raised in MSM, but it was the personal opinion of someone that just listened to the 911 tapes, so let's not carry it too far - it is discussable, but keep it in context please.

If you have questions or concerns, please PM a mod and they will give you a hand.

Thanks,

Salem

Thread 1 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165269&page=42)

queenofcorona
03-20-2012, 11:27 AM
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/20/10775671-trayvon-martin-case-to-go-to-grand-jury-fla-state-attorney-announces

Going to the grand jury! Hope justice comes very soon for this young man and his family.

Adrienne37
03-20-2012, 11:40 AM
They certainly aren't getting in a hurry since the grand jury won't be convened until April 10. That's ridiculous.

mrsu
03-20-2012, 11:51 AM
Press conference on HLN now!

mrsu
03-20-2012, 11:53 AM
Trayvon had talked to the girl he was on the phone with at the time GZ confronted him for 400 minutes over the course of the day. Had talked to her on the way to the 7-11 and on the way home.

mrsu
03-20-2012, 11:57 AM
Lawyer says he went to the store prior to the game starting to get a drink. His brother then asked him to get him some Skittles.

Started raining on the way home. Ran home as it started pouring. Tray ducks under a random porch to avoid the rain and put his hoodie up, then goes back to the sidewalk to start walking towards home again. He did not know GZ was watching this the whole time (apparently this was the suspicious behavior). Tray tells girl on the phone he then sees someone following him. Thinks he had lost him. Then says he's right behind me.

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 11:57 AM
So Tray did have his phone with him, just like his family said! He was talking to a young girl (bless his heart, I hope he was able to have a first love)! LE blamed Tray's family for not giving them access to the phone! Tray's family said they never had the phone! LE had it!

Where is the PHONE???

Are there Lakes in that community?

Wise Old Owl
03-20-2012, 11:58 AM
Here's another point. GZ's car (or truck) had NO MARKINGS that he was security or neighborhood watch. It was simply a private vehicle. That's probably why Trayvon was concerned about who this dude following him was.

All of our "neighborhood" security down here have marked cars that patrol - so YOU KNOW who they are and why they are riding around. Being that GZ was pretty much self appointed - he had no markings identifying him as anything.

mrsu
03-20-2012, 12:01 PM
Last call came to his phone at 7:12pm. Was the girl trying to call him back.

Cops arrived at 7:17pm.

Voice experts going over 911 tapes to determine who was yelling.

Sanford police did a drug and alcohol test on Trayvon Martin after he was dead. Did not do one on GZ!!!!!!!!!!!!! :furious::furious::furious:

rossva
03-20-2012, 12:07 PM
Am I the only one who finds is suspicious that it took over 22 days for the info that Martin was on the phone with a friend at the time who heard the entire encounter to come forward? Had I heard what are allegedly the last monents of a good friend in a controversial situation, I would have been screaming about it at the top of my lungs from the get go. If she heard what she claims toi have heard, why wouldn't she have tried contacting Martin's parents, either in Sanford, or Miami?

Wise Old Owl
03-20-2012, 12:07 PM
While HLN cut away from the press conference, our local news is now covering it. The PC is over but after hearing the attorney speak concerning the last phone call and the girlfriend's statement - THIS MAN NEEDS TO BE ARRESTED NOW - CUFFED AND THROWN IN JAIL

As the attorney said - this completely REFUTES any self defense claim from GZ. Period. End of story. I really really really want to know who the officers were that responded and what was said and done on scene.

Oh Lord, please keep level heads here - we certainly don't need anymore violence in our streets.

mrsu
03-20-2012, 12:07 PM
Lawyer is playing some recording. Can't really decipher what it is??? Says they are giving the recording to the justice department since they don't trust the Sanford police.

What'sThatClue
03-20-2012, 12:10 PM
Lawyer is playing some recording. Can't really decipher what it is??? Says they are giving the recording to the justice department since they don't trust the Sanford police.


It is the girlfriend's statement.

HiHater
03-20-2012, 12:12 PM
Am I the only one who finds is suspicious that it took over 22 days for the info that Martin was on the phone with a friend at the time who heard the entire encounter to come forward? Had I heard what are allegedly the last monents of a good friend in a controversial situation, I would have been screaming about it at the top of my lungs from the get go. If she heard what she claims toi have heard, why wouldn't she have tried contacting Martin's parents, either in Sanford, or Miami?

How do you know that she didn't contact them immediately? You also have to remember that Trayvon's actual phone is/was missing.

The lawyer likely wanted to corroborate her story before just bringing her out, and it would take confirmation from a phone company and/or Trayvon's phone. Can't just take her word for it.

Also, she may have shared this with the SPD, and we see how well they have handled this case. JMO

mrsu
03-20-2012, 12:15 PM
On CNN now. Sunny says that according to Florida law you can't claim the stand your ground defense or it is null and void if you are the aggressor or initiate the contact. Girl says she was mid conversation and then all of sudden the call is dropped. IMO if Tray was about to pummel GZ he would have at least hung up with his girlfriend. This to me says he was blindsided and was not the aggressor.

Grand Jury to meet on April 10th and will hear Trayvon Martin case.

Sunny believes there will be an indictment.

What'sThatClue
03-20-2012, 12:15 PM
How do you know that she didn't contact them immediately? You also have to remember that Trayvon's actual phone is/was missing.

The lawyer likely wanted to corroborate her story before just bringing her out, and it would take confirmation from a phone company and/or Trayvon's phone. Can't just take her word for it.

Also, she may have shared this with the SPD, and we see how well they have handled this case. JMO

She was also in the hospital...stress. She was unable to attend Trayvon's service because she was in the hospital, devastated.

I'm assuming LE had the phone and records. The girlfriend's mother wants her identity protected because she is a minor child.

Crump says the parents do not want an eye for an eye, but just an arrest.

mrsu
03-20-2012, 12:17 PM
Can someone let me know why my post of the phone call and what was said on that phone call was deleted?

Not sure what your post was about, but we were not to discuss the racial slurs until it was talked about in the media.

annalia
03-20-2012, 12:17 PM
The phone records support Trayvon's girlfriend's account of what happened.

Wise Old Owl
03-20-2012, 12:18 PM
Am I the only one who finds is suspicious that it took over 22 days for the info that Martin was on the phone with a friend at the time who heard the entire encounter to come forward? Had I heard what are allegedly the last monents of a good friend in a controversial situation, I would have been screaming about it at the top of my lungs from the get go. If she heard what she claims toi have heard, why wouldn't she have tried contacting Martin's parents, either in Sanford, or Miami?
I'm thinking that the family knew from the get-go about the girlfriend and the phone call. I'm thinking that they were desperately trying to get SOMEONE to listen to them. The attorney said the girl was so upset over all this that she had to be hospitalized and couldn't even attend Trayvon's wake.

The family, through their attorney, has had enough. It seems no one was listening to them so they, again through their attorney, went public with this.

JMHO

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 12:18 PM
Am I the only one who finds is suspicious that it took over 22 days for the info that Martin was on the phone with a friend at the time who heard the entire encounter to come forward? Had I heard what are allegedly the last monents of a good friend in a controversial situation, I would have been screaming about it at the top of my lungs from the get go. If she heard what she claims toi have heard, why wouldn't she have tried contacting Martin's parents, either in Sanford, or Miami?

It seemed like Sanford police didn't want to investigate any further outside of Zimmerman's word. Maybe LE wouldn't listen to the family? LE has already accused the family of not giving them the phone when the phone was on Tray when he was killed!

Again, where is Tray's phone?

They ignored repeated calls from another witness in this case so what is to say they didn't do the same with this young girl?

What'sThatClue
03-20-2012, 12:19 PM
March 26th, the parents will be at the Sanford City Commission meeting. They expect a couple thousand to attend. This is according to Crump during the presser.

mrsu
03-20-2012, 12:19 PM
It is the girlfriend's statement.

I hope a media outlet will translate that. You couldn't hear a thing. IMO

What'sThatClue
03-20-2012, 12:22 PM
Crump has not seen any of GZ's hospital records. There apparently was no mention of his injuries on the preliminary report.

mrsu
03-20-2012, 12:22 PM
How do you know that she didn't contact them immediately? You also have to remember that Trayvon's actual phone is/was missing.

The lawyer likely wanted to corroborate her story before just bringing her out, and it would take confirmation from a phone company and/or Trayvon's phone. Can't just take her word for it.

Also, she may have shared this with the SPD, and we see how well they have handled this case. JMO

The lawyer said that TM's father was going thru the phone on Sunday trying to figure out the password. It was only then that he noticed the call and called the phone number and spoke to the girl. He then alerted the lawyer who was shocked. Seems like it all developed over the last few days.

The only reason I can think of is that the girl was absolutely traumatized and at 16 didn't know what to do. The lawyer said she was so physically ill the day of TM's wake that she could not attend and had to be hospitalized.

Dr.Fessel
03-20-2012, 12:23 PM
At 2:10 zimmerman gets out of his truck after saying he is running.

You then start hearing the loud roaring sound off and on that wind makes when blowing across a mic.



At 2:45 you hear his running steps. I believe he has been running this whole time but he has entered a semi protected area like a walkway with walls so you hear the echo of his steps even though his phone mic is not pointing down.

At 3:18 he slurs the words my truck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL72w4xiTVU&feature=youtu.be

Adrienne37
03-20-2012, 12:24 PM
The more I hear about this case the angrier I get.

What'sThatClue
03-20-2012, 12:24 PM
I hope a media outlet will translate that. You couldn't hear a thing. IMO

That's true, but earlier in the presser Crump read it. Just prior to his holding the phone to the mic to allow people to listen to the statement itself. He played it twice. I'm sure it'll be posted soon.

jjenny
03-20-2012, 12:26 PM
On CNN now. Sunny says that according to Florida law you can't claim the stand your ground defense or it is null and void if you are the aggressor or initiate the contact. Girl says she was mid conversation and then all of sudden the call is dropped. IMO if Tray was about to pummel GZ he would have at least hung up with his girlfriend. This to me says he was blindsided and was not the aggressor.

Grand Jury to meet on April 10th and will hear Trayvon Martin case.

Sunny believes there will be an indictment.

If you read the actual statute it does have a part on using deadly force by an aggressor.

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 12:26 PM
Crump has not seen any of GZ's hospital records. There apparently was no mention of his injuries on the preliminary report.

I thought Bill Lee said the injuries were documented in a police report? Bill Lee should have really given himself a Miranda Warning: "Anything you say, can and will be used against you."

That's it! I wish our army could just go into Sanford and occupy it like they did Iraq and Afganistan and a whole new government would be put into place in that area!

What'sThatClue
03-20-2012, 12:28 PM
I thought Bill Lee said the injuries were documented in a police report? Bill Lee should have really given himself a Miranda Warning: "Anything you say, can and will be used against you."

That's it! I wish our army could just go into Sanford and occupy it like they did Iraq and Afganistan and a whole new government would be put into place in that area!

As I understood it, Crump was referring to the preliminary report only.

Jmo, one would assume that any injuries would be documented in the preliminary report and not added later. :(

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 12:29 PM
As I understood it, Crump was referring to the preliminary report only.

Jmo, one would assume that any injuries would be documented in the preliminary report and not added later. :(

That's my point. I'm just so angry right now that I can't even think!

203_forensics
03-20-2012, 12:30 PM
Wow,
How could something that important be left out of the report. Now it makes you think what else is added to support Zimmerman.

Crump has not seen any of GZ's hospital records. There apparently was no mention of his injuries on the preliminary report.

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 12:33 PM
Wow,
How could something that important be left out of the report.

I'm starting to question whether or not EMS even looked at Zimmerman that night! We know EMS would have shown up... there was a shooting victim! Do we know for sure that Zimmerman even went to get medical attention later? Or was that just part of the script until people started questioning?

What'sThatClue
03-20-2012, 12:35 PM
That's my point. I'm just so angry right now that I can't even think!

Me too. I live not far from the area (but not in Sanford).

Wise Old Owl
03-20-2012, 12:42 PM
I don't understand the "waiting for the Grand Jury" stuff - at all.

I get it about the "self defense" BUT he discharged a weapon within city limits - that's a crime. He failed to heed the dispatcher's order to not follow - "We don't need you to do that" - that's a crime.

Now, while those aren't serious felonies - they will warrant any LE to cuff you and haul you off to booking. So, why not GZ? Why wait for the Grand Jury?

This all stinks. Someone needs to step up to the plate and, at the very least, take some type of action against GZ. The masses here are fired up and its getting worse. Plus, getting GZ in custody will also insure his safety (not that I care about his safety).

An arrest will calm tensions - even if just a little.


JMHO

chefmom
03-20-2012, 12:43 PM
I cannot stop crying this morning with the revelation that someone was on the phone with TM in his last moments. That poor girl! What a horrifying experience! And, I now have no doubt that what I thought all along is true! TM was frightened by a stranger following him and watching him. He was simply trying to get home when he was accosted and shot. Plain and simple. GZ needs to be locked up NOW!!!!!

HiHater
03-20-2012, 12:44 PM
The part that has me most upset is that Sanford PD actually thought they would get away with this. Under some circumstances they probably have or would.

To think that a 17 year old boy's parents would accept the BS story given to them by SPD...is just...inconceivable.

The grand jury will convene on 4/10. Does the state attorney not realize that's an eternity when you have tensions and pressure mounting like this?

jjenny
03-20-2012, 12:44 PM
I don't understand the "waiting for the Grand Jury" stuff - at all.

I get it about the "self defense" BUT he discharged a weapon within city limits - that's a crime. He failed to heed the dispatcher's order to not follow - "We don't need you to do that" - that's a crime.

Now, while those aren't serious felonies - they will warrant any LE to cuff you and haul you off to booking. So, why not GZ? Why wait for the Grand Jury?

This all stinks. Someone needs to step up to the plate and, at the very least, take some type of action against GZ. The masses here are fired up and its getting worse. Plus, getting GZ in custody will also insure his safety (not that I care about his safety).

An arrest will calm tensions - even if just a little.


JMHO

If discharging a weapon within city limits was a crime, then how exactly would stand your ground law work at all? And 911 operator gives instructions, not orders. Not following those instructions is not a crime.

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 12:44 PM
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/sfl-trayvon-martin-family-20120315,0,3161920.story

According to Bill Lee:

“Zimmerman had injuries consistent with his story,” Lee said.

Zimmerman had a damp shirt, grass stains, a bloody nose and was bleeding from a wound in back of his head, according to police reports.

“If someone asks you, ‘Hey do you live here?’ Is it OK for you to jump on them and beat the crap out of somebody?” Lee said. “It’s not.”

If Tray beat the crap out of Zimmerman, as Lee states, where are the pictures of this evidence that are consistent with "his story" of self defense? Please do not tell me that they wouldn't have taken pictures of Zimmerman's injuries?!?! They claim they were "investigating?" In order to do a proper "investigation", it would be important to document and photograph all evidence?

Why was his shirt not taken into evidence? Where is that shirt now? In the garbage?

Dr.Fessel
03-20-2012, 12:45 PM
The feds will grab every recording of a 911 call this guy ever made and I bet they find in one of them over the years where he mentions he is armed.

This PD department knew they had an armed vigilante doing their work for them.

jjenny
03-20-2012, 12:46 PM
The part that has me most upset is that Sanford PD actually thought they would get away with this. Under some circumstances they probably have or would.

To think that a 17 year old boy's parents would accept the BS story given to them by SPD...is just...inconceivable.

The grand jury will convene on 4/10. Does the state attorney not realize that's an eternity when you have tensions and pressure mounting like this?

I am not understanding this discussion anymore. What did they think they would get away with? FL passed "stand your ground" law and under this law this is hardly the first case of such a thing happening. People claim self-defense and under the law they are free and clear.

What'sThatClue
03-20-2012, 12:47 PM
News13 reporter stated that Sanford City Hall Commission Chambers holds about 350 people. Crump stated he expects 'a couple thousand.' But no one knows, really. Still, the commission can most likely expect a large crowd and there may be "standing room only" according to the reporter.

Interesting that FL Statutes does address public meetings where a huge turnout is expected. I'm familiar with this because it's happened in my own city when a huge crowd showed up regarding a controversial issue. So, who knows where the meeting may end up being held or what the City of Sanford will do to provide access to a huge crowd. We'll find out on the 26th, I suppose...although perhaps an arrest will be made prior to the meeting. Even so, I bet a huge crowd shows up. JMO

http://www.myfloridalegal.com/sun.nsf/sunmanual/A47B8F3E8F3CCCDF852566F300582C91

4. Can restrictions be placed on the public's attendance at, or participation in, a public meeting?

a. Public's right to attend or record meeting

(1) Size of meeting facilities

The Sunshine Law requires that meetings of a public board or commission be "open to the public." For meetings where a large turnout of the public is expected, public boards and commissions should take reasonable steps to ensure that the facilities where the meeting will be held will accommodate the anticipated turnout. Inf. Op. to Galloway, August 21, 2008. Meetings held at a facility which can accommodate only a small number of the public attending, when a large public turnout can reasonably be expected, may violate the public access requirement of s. 286.011, F.S., by unreasonably restricting access to the meeting. If a huge public turnout is anticipated for a particular issue and the largest available public meeting room cannot accommodate all of those who are expected to attend, the use of video technology (e.g., a television screen outside the meeting room) may be appropriate. In such cases, as with other open meetings, reasonable steps to provide an opportunity for public participation in the proceedings should also be considered. Id.

waltzingmatilda
03-20-2012, 12:49 PM
I feel so badly for Trayvon's girlfriend. I've witnessed my children grieve the loss of friends when they were teens and they would fall apart! I'm keeping her in my prayers. I'm sure she is haunted by this tragedy, JMO. I can't even imagine what she is going thru. MOO

wm

HiHater
03-20-2012, 12:49 PM
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/sfl-trayvon-martin-family-20120315,0,3161920.story

According to Bill Lee:

“Zimmerman had injuries consistent with his story,” Lee said.

Zimmerman had a damp shirt, grass stains, a bloody nose and was bleeding from a wound in back of his head, according to police reports.

“If someone asks you, ‘Hey do you live here?’ Is it OK for you to jump on them and beat the crap out of somebody?” Lee said. “It’s not.”

If Tray beat the crap out of Zimmerman, as Lee states, where are the pictures of this evidence that are consistent with "his story" of self defense? Please do not tell me that they wouldn't have taken pictures of Zimmerman's injuries?!?! They claim they were "investigating?" In order to do a proper "investigation", it would be important to document and photograph all evidence?

Why was his shirt not taken into evidence? Where is that shirt now? In the garbage?

This police chief is going to have no choice but to resign. He should have stuck to the old "we cannot comment on an ongoing investigation" line, because as of right now, it looks as though he has been lying A LOT.

CSDonna
03-20-2012, 12:50 PM
I hope they lock Z's butt up, throw him into the general population at the prison, and throw away the key! That poor child was racially profiled and murdered.

jjenny
03-20-2012, 12:53 PM
GZ seems to be very well protected by "stand your ground" law.

"In Florida, the shooter usually only has to say these magic words to get a Get Out of Jail Free card: "I felt I was in imminent danger, so I shot in self-defense.""

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/columnists/fl-trayvon-death-mayocol-b032012-20120319,0,5397867.column

What'sThatClue
03-20-2012, 12:54 PM
The feds will grab every recording of a 911 call this guy ever made and I bet they find in one of them over the years where he mentions he is armed.

This PD department knew they had an armed vigilante doing their work for them.

The problem is that the actual recordings are kept for only 6 months, although records of the calls are kept forever. So the feds may be limited to just seeing the records and not the recordings themselves prior to the 6 month cutoff.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-19/news/os-trayvon-martin-shooting-george-zimmerman-911-20120319_1_neighborhood-county-sheriff-s-office-report

The Sheriff's Office received more calls, but the audio information is retained for six-months before it is destroyed due to space issues, said spokeswoman Heather Smith. The record and the call log are not destroyed.

HiHater
03-20-2012, 12:54 PM
I am not understanding this discussion anymore. What did they think they would get away with? FL passed "stand your ground" law and under this law this is hardly the first case of such a thing happening. People claim self-defense and under the law they are free and clear.

Are we not following the same case?

They told the parents of a 17 year old boy that their son was killed in self-defense. That there was no evidence to contradict that it was in fact, self-defense.

Now, almost a month later, and there is virtually NOTHING that would lead a REASONABLE person to believe that this could have ever been self-defense.

SPD probably never imagined the case getting this much attention. This has nothing to do with the stand your ground law. You can keep bringing that up, but as of right now, it's not looking like GZ was standing his ground. By definition, standing your ground means to stand up for yourself; to resist an attack.

annalia
03-20-2012, 12:56 PM
I am not understanding this discussion anymore. What did they think they would get away with? FL passed "stand your ground" law and under this law this is hardly the first case of such a thing happening. People claim self-defense and under the law they are free and clear.

People still can't just say self defense and that be the end of it. Facts still matter, no matter what was passed about "standing your ground". And those facts are showing more and more that this was NOT a case of self defense.

It was a public sidewalk, just because Tray is now dead doesn't make his rights disappear.

JMHO

corq
03-20-2012, 12:56 PM
Miami Herald's commentary had some interesting angles on the law, and I hope will shore up:


"Stand Your Ground fathers: Trayvon Martin's killer should likely be arrested, doesn't deserve immunity"

LINK: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/03/stand-your-ground-fathers-trayvon-martins-shooter-should-likely-be-arrested-doesnt-deserve-immunity.html

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 12:57 PM
Regarding any pictures taken of Zimmerman's injuries:

Do you think if they had pictures of Zimmerman's injuries that night they would have been released already? Or do you think they are keeping them and not releasing them? Do you think pictures even exist?

I would think that if they had photographed Zimmerman's injuries, the pictures would have been released immediately with the 911 calls?

I just want to know if someone believes the pictures exist and they are just holding them ack

CSDonna
03-20-2012, 01:01 PM
Perhaps he wouldn't have felt "in imminent danger" if he hadn't pursued the child. (not that I'm buying his "danger" story one bit!)

jjenny
03-20-2012, 01:01 PM
People still can't just say self defense and that be the end of it. Facts still matter, no matter what was passed about "standing your ground". And those facts are showing more and more that this was NOT a case of self defense.

It was a public sidewalk, just because Tray is now dead doesn't make his rights disappear.

JMHO

Maybe you should read about some other cases that were called "self-defense" under this law.

HiHater
03-20-2012, 01:03 PM
The link was already posted, but I think these words, from the sponsors of the "Stand Your Ground" law, should be posted clearly on this board:

Peaden and Baxley say their law, at its heart, is a self-defense law. It says law-abiding people have no duty to retreat. Nowhere does it say that a person has a right to confront another. The law does say a law-abiding citizen can use deadly force if "if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

The 911 tapes strongly suggest Zimmerman overstepped his bounds, they say, when the Sanford neighborhood crime-watch captain said he was following Trayvon and appeared to ignore a police request to stay away.

“The guy lost his defense right then,” said Peaden. “When he said ‘I’m following him,’ he lost his defense.”

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/03/stand-your-ground-fathers-trayvon-martins-shooter-should-likely-be-arrested-doesnt-deserve-immunity.html#storylink=cpy

jjenny
03-20-2012, 01:03 PM
Miami Herald's commentary had some interesting angles on the law, and I hope will shore up:


"Stand Your Ground fathers: Trayvon Martin's killer should likely be arrested, doesn't deserve immunity"

LINK: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/03/stand-your-ground-fathers-trayvon-martins-shooter-should-likely-be-arrested-doesnt-deserve-immunity.html

Of course they are gonna defend this law since they came up with it. They should look at stats. Rate of "justifiable homicide" tripling under this law?

HiHater
03-20-2012, 01:07 PM
Of course they are gonna defend this law since they came up with it. They should look at stats. Rate of "justifiable homicide" tripling under this law?

Is there anything to indicate that the overall homicide rate went up? Or are we just seeing people who would normally (without the law) be murder victims turn the tables on their attackers?

chefmom
03-20-2012, 01:08 PM
GZ seems to be very well protected by "stand your ground" law.

"In Florida, the shooter usually only has to say these magic words to get a Get Out of Jail Free card: "I felt I was in imminent danger, so I shot in self-defense.""

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/columnists/fl-trayvon-death-mayocol-b032012-20120319,0,5397867.column

GZ may indeed be protected by FLORIDA law, but he is in no way immune to FEDERAL laws, which, IMO, he has broken several of. I do believe we have moved past this whole "Stand Your Ground" statute and are now looking at federal charges.

jjenny
03-20-2012, 01:12 PM
The link was already posted, but I think these words, from the sponsors of the "Stand Your Ground" law, should be posted clearly on this board:



http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/03/stand-your-ground-fathers-trayvon-martins-shooter-should-likely-be-arrested-doesnt-deserve-immunity.html#storylink=cpy

They can defend it all they want, but look at the stats. It's like a wild-wild west out there.
"In the years since the law was amended in 2005, there has been a surge in the number of cases like Mr. Dooley’s and that of Trayvon Martin, killed by the neighborhood volunteer, George Zimmerman, last month. A 2010 review by The St. Petersburg Times found that rates of justifiable homicide tripled since the law was passed and that “twice a week, on average, someone’s killing was considered warranted.”"

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/20/florida-shooting-focuses-attention-on-stand-your-ground-law/

jjenny
03-20-2012, 01:14 PM
Is there anything to indicate that the overall homicide rate went up? Or are we just seeing people who would normally (without the law) be murder victims turn the tables on their attackers?

Well I guess that depends on what one considers "justifiable." Is killing of Trayvon "justifiable?"

Lovejac
03-20-2012, 01:17 PM
GZ may indeed be protected by FLORIDA law, but he is in no way immune to FEDERAL laws, which, IMO, he has broken several of. I do believe we have moved past this whole "Stand Your Ground" statute and are now looking at federal charges.


From your lips, to God's Ears :please:

momshrink
03-20-2012, 01:18 PM
So Tray did have his phone with him, just like his family said! He was talking to a young girl (bless his heart, I hope he was able to have a first love)! LE blamed Tray's family for not giving them access to the phone! Tray's family said they never had the phone! LE had it!

Where is the PHONE???

Are there Lakes in that community?

I wonder if LE wanted access to phone records even though they had the phone. I think SPD has the same mindset as GZ. They considered Trayvon a suspect. IMO typical of the SPD.
JMO

HiHater
03-20-2012, 01:21 PM
Well I guess that depends on what one considers "justifiable." Is killing of Trayvon "justifiable?"

What you just asked/offered had nothing to do with my original question. So I will rephrase.

Has the "Stand Your Ground" law caused an overall increase in homicides, or is it roughly the same number of homicides, with more of them being determined justifiable?

There's no way to analyze the effects of the law without looking in context.

Dr.Fessel
03-20-2012, 01:23 PM
GZ seems to be very well protected by "stand your ground" law.

"In Florida, the shooter usually only has to say these magic words to get a Get Out of Jail Free card: "I felt I was in imminent danger, so I shot in self-defense.""

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/columnists/fl-trayvon-death-mayocol-b032012-20120319,0,5397867.column

Right there is one of the problems. The get out of jail card was not needed because there was no jail.

Rob774
03-20-2012, 01:25 PM
Another thing, which i don't think was brought up here. Let's assume for a second that Zimmerman actually did have injuries. Did the ME or anyone else do an examination on Trayvon's fist to determine there is bruising. Once again, anyone who has gotten into a fight, you contact a person enough times, especially on the head, you will have bruised knuckles. If Tray got some good licks in on Zimmerman indeed, there should of been some evidence, photos and everything to corroborate this. IMO.

jjenny
03-20-2012, 01:28 PM
Right there is one of the problems. The get out of jail card was not needed because there was no jail.

It's an expression that shouldn't be taken literally.

"It is an abomination," said former Broward County prosecutor David Frankel. "The ultimate intent might be good, but in practice, people take the opportunity to shoot first and say later they had a justification. It almost gives them a free pass to shoot."
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2012-01-09/news/fl-stand-ground-hernandez-20120109_1_deadly-force-multiple-gunshot-wounds-maury-hernandez

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 01:33 PM
It's an expression that shouldn't be taken literally.

"It is an abomination," said former Broward County prosecutor David Frankel. "The ultimate intent might be good, but in practice, people take the opportunity to shoot first and say later they had a justification. It almost gives them a free pass to shoot."
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2012-01-09/news/fl-stand-ground-hernandez-20120109_1_deadly-force-multiple-gunshot-wounds-maury-hernandez

I believe I understand what you are doing? :rocker:

annalia
03-20-2012, 01:34 PM
Wow, just listening to HLN.

According to the person speaking, there is an exception to the stand your ground law, called first aggressor law.

It means if you are the aggressor and then go on to lose the fight, you can't then claim self defense.

Interesting

GiantPickle
03-20-2012, 01:40 PM
Bold part makes me so sad....in the world I grew up in, this is one of the reasons to HAVE a porch. To keep dry from the rain. To think a neighbor's kid is no longer considered normal for ducking out of the rain on the closest porch......well its just a sad sad world. Thankfully if I see a downpour and a kid run up on a porch and put up his hoodie, my first thoughts are "getting out of the rain" instead of SHOOOOOOOOT THAT ****

(and for the record, i'm only in my 30s....not 100).

Lawyer says he went to the store prior to the game starting to get a drink. His brother then asked him to get him some Skittles.

Started raining on the way home. Ran home as it started pouring. Tray ducks under a random porch to avoid the rain and put his hoodie up, then goes back to the sidewalk to start walking towards home again. He did not know GZ was watching this the whole time (apparently this was the suspicious behavior). Tray tells girl on the phone he then sees someone following him. Thinks he had lost him. Then says he's right behind me.

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 01:41 PM
I wonder if LE wanted access to phone records even though they had the phone. I think SPD has the same mindset as GZ. They considered Trayvon a suspect. IMO typical of the SPD.
JMO

If I had been treated the way this family had been treated, I wouldn't grant them access to the phone records either because I would want to be the first one to see what they said! Let them get a search warrant for the phone records. I'm sure they happily gave the FBI permission!

Wise Old Owl
03-20-2012, 01:42 PM
Wow, just listening to HLN.

According to the person speaking, there is an exception to the stand your ground law, called first aggressor law.

It means if you are the aggressor and then go on to lose the fight, you can't then claim self defense.

Interesting
Yep yep - exactly. You can't confront, pursue or be the first aggressor and then claim self defense. that's why none of this makes any sense. All the investigators on scene had to do was talk to the dispatcher that told GZ NOT to follow him and things would have changed - immediately. Why this didn't happen I have no clue.

At the very least GZ should have been taken to the station for questioning - at the least, until the lead investigator had all the facts and timeline and events. Again, for some unknown reason this did not happen.

The FBI will get to the bottom of all of this.

GiantPickle
03-20-2012, 01:43 PM
Am I the only one who finds is suspicious that it took over 22 days for the info that Martin was on the phone with a friend at the time who heard the entire encounter to come forward? Had I heard what are allegedly the last monents of a good friend in a controversial situation, I would have been screaming about it at the top of my lungs from the get go. If she heard what she claims toi have heard, why wouldn't she have tried contacting Martin's parents, either in Sanford, or Miami?

just because it was just released through the media doesn't mean attempts weren't made to contact SPD or that in fact the SPD hasn't heard this info before. SPD basically said "CASE CLOSED" the evening of the shooting. Sure sounds like this girl has a phone record to back up her story. GZ still has NOTHING to back up his.

thefragile7393
03-20-2012, 01:43 PM
I enjoyed seeing Trayvon's father with Anderson Cooper. Cooper threw out a lot of hard questions that many people are asking themselves...replaying parts of the tapes and asking the questions. He brought up the attire of Trayvon and stated that Cooper himself wears this outfit a lot off camera, what made Trayvon so different?

I was so impressed with Trayvon's dad. He was respectful, even speaking about Zimmerman's father's comments. He was collected, and stated clearly what he feels happens to his son. I can only imagine how he must feel on the inside.

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 01:45 PM
Yep yep - exactly. You can't confront, pursue or be the first aggressor and then claim self defense. that's why none of this makes any sense. All the investigators on scene had to do was talk to the dispatcher that told GZ NOT to follow him and things would have changed - immediately. Why this didn't happen I have no clue.

At the very least GZ should have been taken to the station for questioning - at the least, until the lead investigator had all the facts and timeline and events. Again, for some unknown reason this did not happen.

The FBI will get to the bottom of all of this.

Well, in the other thread, it was pointed out that Zimmerman's father is a pretty connected man? That is why I want the FBI to get Zimmerman's phone records and see if there was a call made to him while police were "investigating" Zimmerman's claims of self defense?

chefmom
03-20-2012, 01:46 PM
And, my dear friends, it is coming full circle now! WARNING!!! Uneditted Content!

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/03/trayvon_martin_case_did_george.php

ScubaTwinn
03-20-2012, 01:46 PM
"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

If it were a cell phone, wouldn't GZ have seen him on the phone? I'm guessing he wouldn't have wanted to confront anyone if he saw them on the phone talking. But if it were a blue tooth/ear piece, it's possible he couldn't see it. I guess it doesn't matter at this point and I don't know why it's bugging me. MOO

Rob774
03-20-2012, 01:49 PM
I'd like to also add... the GF's testimony is crucial, because according to GZ, TM ran away, which led to many people, espcially on here question, how did GZ catch a 17 YO athelete. It must have been Tray who confronted Zimmerman, because he could of easily escaped as he continued to run.

Well there you have it... he never ran, thus GZ was able to catch him quite easily, especially with him Tray being on the phone. I think most of what GZ told police initially... was a lie. Tray never walked towards him, Tray never ran away, his hands probably never went to his waistband in a threatening manner. Can't wait to see how GZ fairs in prison.

HiHater
03-20-2012, 01:50 PM
Yep yep - exactly. You can't confront, pursue or be the first aggressor and then claim self defense. that's why none of this makes any sense. All the investigators on scene had to do was talk to the dispatcher that told GZ NOT to follow him and things would have changed - immediately. Why this didn't happen I have no clue.

At the very least GZ should have been taken to the station for questioning - at the least, until the lead investigator had all the facts and timeline and events. Again, for some unknown reason this did not happen.

The FBI will get to the bottom of all of this.

Exactly. I'm searching trying to find another case that is even similar to this one, and I have been unsuccessful so far. The cases of self-defense that I have come across are either

1. Someone outright attacks another person or
2. The people are engaged in "mutual combat," a dispute, and/or a fight

I have not seen any other case where a person was chased down. Even with the road rage incident, they both pulled over and were fighting before the other man was stabbed.

I don't understand what the dispute was between Tray and GZ. Only one of them had a problem with the other. Only one of them was chased, pursued, and attacked. This was not self-defense by any stretch of anyone's imagination.

jjenny
03-20-2012, 01:50 PM
Wow, just listening to HLN.

According to the person speaking, there is an exception to the stand your ground law, called first aggressor law.

It means if you are the aggressor and then go on to lose the fight, you can't then claim self defense.

Interesting

They can still claim self-defense but they have an obligation to try and escape first.

Rob774
03-20-2012, 01:52 PM
"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

If it were a cell phone, wouldn't GZ have seen him on the phone? I'm guessing he wouldn't have wanted to confront anyone if he saw them on the phone talking. But if it were a blue tooth/ear piece, it's possible he couldn't see it. I guess it doesn't matter at this point and I don't know why it's bugging me. MOO

With a head set on, which is tiny, coupled with the fact he had a hoodie on, and it dark / rainy... i don't think Zimmerman ever knew he was on the phone.

annalia
03-20-2012, 01:54 PM
They can still claim self-defense but they have an obligation to try and escape first.

Murderers can claim anything the want. That's why facts are important.

But this has nothing to to do with GZ trying to escape. It has to to do with evidence pointing to him being the aggressor.

He didn't need to escape from anything if he was the one in pursuit, the only trying trying to escape was Trayvon.

JMHO

HiHater
03-20-2012, 01:54 PM
"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

If it were a cell phone, wouldn't GZ have seen him on the phone? I'm guessing he wouldn't have wanted to confront anyone if he saw them on the phone talking. But if it were a blue tooth/ear piece, it's possible he couldn't see it. I guess it doesn't matter at this point and I don't know why it's bugging me. MOO

Maybe not. Trayvon was talking with an ear piece in. That could be part of the reason why George thought he was on something; Trayvon may have appeared to be talking to himself.

The girl heard someone ask Martin what he was doing, and heard Martin ask why the person was following him, Crump said. The girl then got the impression that there was an altercation in which the earpiece fell out of Martin's ear and the phone went out, Crump said.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/20/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 01:56 PM
I can't believe Zimmerman's father said that because his son is Hispanic he can't be racist? Living in Florida all my life, I can assure you that there are Hispanic people who are racist against black and white people. There are black people who are racist against white and hispanic people! There are white people who are racist against hispanic and black people!

Asian's seem to have it pretty good! Because I rarely see any racism against Asian people?

Pointing out that Zimmerman is Hispanic does not mean that he wasn't racist!

Dr.Fessel
03-20-2012, 01:56 PM
It's an expression that shouldn't be taken literally.

"It is an abomination," said former Broward County prosecutor David Frankel. "The ultimate intent might be good, but in practice, people take the opportunity to shoot first and say later they had a justification. It almost gives them a free pass to shoot."
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2012-01-09/news/fl-stand-ground-hernandez-20120109_1_deadly-force-multiple-gunshot-wounds-maury-hernandez

I disagree with you 100 percent. It is not just an expression and should be taken literally.

There was a homicide and the person who committed that homicide gave no evidence that is was not a murder. Injuries in a scuffle mean nothing if if you started that scuffle.

There is plenty of evidence from the tapes he went looking for trouble. Without evidence to back up his claim of self defense he should have been locked up and charged.

Adrienne37
03-20-2012, 01:58 PM
And, my dear friends, it is coming full circle now! WARNING!!! Uneditted Content!

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/03/trayvon_martin_case_did_george.php

Just what I've been waiting for. This, ladies and gentlemen, makes it a HATE CRIME.

A hate crime is a legal category used to described bias-motivated violence: "assault, injury, and murder on the basis of certain personal characteristics: different appearance, different color, different nationality, different language, different religion."[2]
"Hate crime" generally refers to criminal acts that are seen to have been motivated by bias against one or more of the types above, or of their derivatives. Incidents may involve physical assault, damage to property, bullying, harassment, verbal abuse or insults, or offensive graffiti or letters (hate mail).[3]

Hate crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now, lock Zimmerman up and throw away the key!!

daisy7
03-20-2012, 02:00 PM
Change.org released a list Tuesday of celebrities who are supporting an online petition for Trayvon Martin.

Read more: http://www.wesh.com/slideshow/news/30722566/detail.html#ixzz1pgGv1FNv

HiHater
03-20-2012, 02:00 PM
I can't believe Zimmerman's father said that because his son is Hispanic he can't be racist? Living in Florida all my life, I can assure you that there are Hispanic people who are racist against black and white people. There are black people who are racist against white and hispanic people! There are white people who are racist against hispanic and black people!

Asian's seem to have it pretty good! Because I rarely see any racism against Asian people?

Pointing out that Zimmerman is Hispanic does not mean that he wasn't racist!

And there are people who grow up in "multi-racial" families who are racist as well!

jjenny
03-20-2012, 02:00 PM
Regardless if what people that came up with this law say, I think it's obvious on what is going on here.

"Trayvon's parents are calling on the FBI to take over the investigation. Sanford Mayor Jeff Triplett said he supports federal involvement. This case is now gaining national prominence for its racial overtones and the seeming foot-dragging of the police, though the Florida Department of Law Enforcement and local state attorney are involved. The FBI also acknowledges being in touch with the Sanford police. But the real culprit is the "stand your ground" law that can tie the hands of police and prosecutors. Once again it has proven to be the menace that its critics predicted it would be."

http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/article1220845.ece

Wise Old Owl
03-20-2012, 02:00 PM
ITA Adrienne - I knew this last night when I heard it for myself. The feds will charge this guy with a hate crime and prosecute it as such. Its coming. Hopefully it will happen before Thursday when Sharpton is due in town.

JMHO

GiantPickle
03-20-2012, 02:03 PM
Now that the msm is talking about the underlying mumble....I do have to say I hear two different words one being a slur and the other being "punk" ....this is one of those things a jury should decide....what do they hear? I have to say I'm much happier to hear the GJ is taking a lookie-loo at this case...(not sure why GZ gets a month to disappear first though).

ETA: the first word is clearly the F word...the second is either the slur or punk in my ears

Velouria
03-20-2012, 02:03 PM
I can't believe Zimmerman's father said that because his son is Hispanic he can't be racist? Living in Florida all my life, I can assure you that there are Hispanic people who are racist against black and white people. There are black people who are racist against white and hispanic people! There are white people who are racist against hispanic and black people!

Asian's seem to have it pretty good! Because I rarely see any racism against Asian people?

Pointing out that Zimmerman is Hispanic does not mean that he wasn't racist!

Lola, I sadly agree with 99% of your post, however I have seen racism both against and by Asians as well.

Unfortunately, ignorance knows no color, ethnic group, or creed. :(

jjenny
03-20-2012, 02:04 PM
I disagree with you 100 percent. It is not just an expression and should be taken literally.

There was a homicide and the person who committed that homicide gave no evidence that is was not a murder. Injuries in a scuffle mean nothing if if you started that scuffle.

There is plenty of evidence from the tapes he went looking for trouble. Without evidence to back up his claim of self defense he should have been locked up and charged.

Under this law, police can't arrest those acting in self-defense (which is what Zimmerman claimed he did).

GiantPickle
03-20-2012, 02:04 PM
and there are mixed persons who identify with only one side and are racist against their own gene pool !!

HiHater
03-20-2012, 02:05 PM
Regardless if what people that came up with this law say, I think it's obvious on what is going on here.

"Trayvon's parents are calling on the FBI to take over the investigation. Sanford Mayor Jeff Triplett said he supports federal involvement. This case is now gaining national prominence for its racial overtones and the seeming foot-dragging of the police, though the Florida Department of Law Enforcement and local state attorney are involved. The FBI also acknowledges being in touch with the Sanford police. But the real culprit is the "stand your ground" law that can tie the hands of police and prosecutors. Once again it has proven to be the menace that its critics predicted it would be."

http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/article1220845.ece


The real culprit, and the only menace, is GEORGE ZIMMERMAN. JMO MOO IMO

HiHater
03-20-2012, 02:08 PM
Police can make an arrest when there is probable cause that the person was not acting in self-defense, even if the person asserts they were.

annalia
03-20-2012, 02:08 PM
Now that the msm is talking about the underlying mumble....I do have to say I hear two different words one being a slur and the other being "punk" ....this is one of those things a jury should decide....what do they hear? I have to say I'm much happier to hear the GJ is taking a lookie-loo at this case...(not sure why GZ gets a month to disappear first though).

ETA: the first word is clearly the F word...the second is either the slur or punk in my ears

I can't tell for sure, to me it sounds like the slur, however, if he said, the slur, punk or tool, it shows that he judged Tray before going after him, and was the reason he went after him.

JMHO

Velouria
03-20-2012, 02:09 PM
And there are people who grow up in "multi-racial" families who are racist as well!

"Some of my best friends are black." :rolleyes:

Dad may not want to believe is son is racist, but what GZ did that night amounted to racial profiling, plain and simple.

tlcya
03-20-2012, 02:10 PM
Wish there was some way to give Sharpton a heads up that "hey, we got this dude, no need to come out and get involved"

Sorry but every time that man gets involved in some headline making case the only winner is Mr. Sharpton himself, who gains all that face time in the cameras.

Right now, there is a pretty loud and polarized group calling for justice. The Social media has assisted us in getting this story national attention and now GJ, FBI and Federal involvement. I really don't think Mr. Sharpton can do anything but screw this whole thing up by turning it into a big ole hatefest between the races.

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 02:11 PM
Now that the msm is talking about the underlying mumble....I do have to say I hear two different words one being a slur and the other being "punk" ....this is one of those things a jury should decide....what do they hear? I have to say I'm much happier to hear the GJ is taking a lookie-loo at this case...(not sure why GZ gets a month to disappear first though).

ETA: the first word is clearly the F word...the second is either the slur or punk in my ears

I believe it to be a slur?

I don't hear any "nk" at the end.

I don't hear "t" before the "oo".

It clearly sounds like "oon" at the end.

Someone stated to me last night that the letter in front of it could be "g" or it could very well be what I believe I heard?

Dr.Fessel
03-20-2012, 02:13 PM
Under this law, police can't arrest those acting in self-defense (which is what Zimmerman claimed he did).


That is not true. They can arrest him for murder. They have plenty of evidence it was not self defense. He can say anything he wants but he better have evidence to back up committing a homicide and calling it self defense.

chefmom
03-20-2012, 02:13 PM
Now that the msm is talking about the underlying mumble....I do have to say I hear two different words one being a slur and the other being "punk" ....this is one of those things a jury should decide....what do they hear? I have to say I'm much happier to hear the GJ is taking a lookie-loo at this case...(not sure why GZ gets a month to disappear first though).

ETA: the first word is clearly the F word...the second is either the slur or punk in my ears

I listened to it repeatedly last night through a really good set of headphones and a really good set of speakers, and I could clearly hear the slur that the Herald is reporting. Not the ones it could be, but the worse one that they thought it to be. This is why I feel strongly that it will be treated as a hate crime. I am appalled that GZ has not been arrested. MOO

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 02:15 PM
I listened to it repeatedly last night through a really good set of headphones and a really good set of speakers, and I could clearly hear the slur that the Herald is reporting. Not the ones it could be, but the worse one that they thought it to be. This is why I feel strongly that it will be treated as a hate crime. I am appalled that GZ has not been arrested. MOO

I was up until 5am listening to it... over and over again. We even had our own conversation about it. I agree 100% with you.

momshrink
03-20-2012, 02:19 PM
Regarding any pictures taken of Zimmerman's injuries:

Do you think if they had pictures of Zimmerman's injuries that night they would have been released already? Or do you think they are keeping them and not releasing them? Do you think pictures even exist?

I would think that if they had photographed Zimmerman's injuries, the pictures would have been released immediately with the 911 calls?

I just want to know if someone believes the pictures exist and they are just holding them ack

IMO no pictures of GZ's injuries were taken. IMO there was very sloppy police work.

GiantPickle
03-20-2012, 02:20 PM
Police can make an arrest when there is probable cause that the person was not acting in self-defense, even if the person asserts they were.

and this is where i think it gets real sticky for the police. i think they thought, neighborhood watch guy + John Doe alone in gated community he doesn't live in = pretty open shut self defense. BUT that is <modsnip> lazy police work.

GiantPickle
03-20-2012, 02:23 PM
I can't tell for sure, to me it sounds like the slur, however, if he said, the slur, punk or tool, it shows that he judged Tray before going after him, and was the reason he went after him.

JMHO

you don't even need to address the mumble then. He clearly calls Trayvon one of those "*******s [that] always gets away with it" early on in the call

What'sThatClue
03-20-2012, 02:26 PM
I was up until 5am listening to it... over and over again. We even had our own conversation about it. I agree 100% with you.

I've been on many sites listening to this call because I just couldn't believe my ears when I listened on the miaminewstimes site. The racial slur is clear on every posting of the 911 call, even the earliest postings on other news sites. Yep, hate crime big time. IMO there is absolutely no reason to not charge GZ and it needs to be done immediately.

GiantPickle
03-20-2012, 02:27 PM
i'm suddenly talking to myself...lol but I do want to say that I also think this is a hate crime. And the best evidence of that is what is outwardly said on GZ's 911 call. He was profiling the heck out of Trayvon because he was black like the "others" and the "others" are identified in the other 911 calls by GZ and the other neighborhood watch guy that has been on the tele saying that it was black teens who did the 8 recent break-ins.

uvamerica
03-20-2012, 02:27 PM
Wish there was some way to give Sharpton a heads up that "hey, we got this dude, no need to come out and get involved"

Sorry but every time that man gets involved in some headline making case the only winner is Mr. Sharpton himself, who gains all that face time in the cameras.

Right now, there is a pretty loud and polarized group calling for justice. The Social media has assisted us in getting this story national attention and now GJ, FBI and Federal involvement. I really don't think Mr. Sharpton can do anything but screw this whole thing up by turning it into a big ole hatefest between the races.

You are so right ! I can see him now fanning the flames :maddening: this case is hot enough ! no need for him here !! maybe they can :jail: him until this is over ?

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 02:28 PM
I've been on many sites listening to this call because I just couldn't believe my ears when I listened on the miaminewstimes site. The racial slur is clear on every posting of the 911 call, even the earliest postings on other news sites. Yep, hate crime big time. IMO there is absolutely no reason to not charge GZ and it needs to be done immediately.

Yes, last night I listened to numerous versions of the 911 call. From youtube, to miamiherald, to wftv, etc... because I wanted to make sure it wasn't somehow edited in by someone. It's clearly on the all of them.

HiHater
03-20-2012, 02:33 PM
JVM will cover Trayvon later on tonight...

Watching HLN, just saw the clip of Crump...I have to paraphrase, but he basically said self-defense is a legal argument to be made in a courtroom, and not on the side of the road to a police officer.

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 02:34 PM
JVM will cover Trayvon later on tonight...

Watching HLN, just saw the clip of Crump...I have to paraphrase, but he basically said self-defense is a legal argument to be made in a courtroom, and not on the side of the road to a police officer.

AMEN! Especially one who obviously didn't think it important to take pictures of the physical evidence that would support a self-defense claim?

Aedrys
03-20-2012, 02:36 PM
JVM will cover Trayvon later on tonight...

Watching HLN, just saw the clip of Crump...I have to paraphrase, but he basically said self-defense is a legal argument to be made in a courtroom, and not on the side of the road to a police officer.

That's what I thought! Something is seriously wrong here that he claimed self defense and apparently the police accepted it and let him go. Sounds like a good ol' boy network or something. I have NEVER heard of this just being accepted - it always has to go to court and be argued, especially if the person who was killed was unarmed! Shoot, if it were you or me, we'd have to prove it in court! I think some heads are going to roll in that police department when all is said and done.

HiHater
03-20-2012, 02:46 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/traynor-martin-arrest-now-abc-reveals-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T2jNwtU_I3w

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run."

Eventually, he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape. But suddenly the strange man was back, cornering Martin.

"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."

1. Sounds like GZ was looking for more than a street sign.
2. If Trayvon ran, how did GZ catch up to him? I think Trayvon played football?
3. Did GZ take a short cut, or did Trayvon think he was in the clear and let his guard down?
4. Doesn't sound like GZ gave Trayvon a chance to explain what he was doing there, which is what I have thought from the beginning. If GZ was told Trayvon lived in the neighborhood, then Trayvon should not have been a John Doe.
5. I wonder if they struggled more than once, like, in more than one location.

I think when the Feds make GZ tell his own story with no prompting, and possibly make him reenact what he says happened, this will all be clear.

203_forensics
03-20-2012, 02:50 PM
I could be wrong, but it just seems odd that TM would be face down with both arms underneath. If TM was on top punching and then shot dead(since there was no moaning after the shot) he would instantly fall on top of GZ. GZ would have to push TM to the side to to get him off. What ever side GM push him off the other arm would end up sliding over GZ therefore not going under the body. Does that make any since?

Velouria
03-20-2012, 02:52 PM
i'm suddenly talking to myself...lol but I do want to say that I also think this is a hate crime. And the best evidence of that is what is outwardly said on GZ's 911 call. He was profiling the heck out of Trayvon because he was black like the "others" and the "others" are identified in the other 911 calls by GZ and the other neighborhood watch guy that has been on the tele saying that it was black teens who did the 8 recent break-ins.

BBM

Not sure I've seen him...Is this the neighbor who claims GZ stopped a burglary at his unit by alerting him to an open window?

rossva
03-20-2012, 02:53 PM
BBM

An unknown person goes on to a porch at dusk, pulls up a hoodie covering his face, in a suburb of the US city with the THIRD HIGHEST crime rate in the country looks suspicious to me. Why would he have to go to the porch to pull the hoodie up? It's not as though he stood there waiting to dry, or the rain to subside. By the description, he walked under the porch, pulled the hoodie up, and returned to the street. I could see how an observer would take that as suspicious.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2011/02/16/the-11-most-dangerous-cities



Tray ducks under a random porch to avoid the rain and put his hoodie up, then goes back to the sidewalk to start walking towards home again.


Bold part makes me so sad....in the world I grew up in, this is one of the reasons to HAVE a porch. To keep dry from the rain. To think a neighbor's kid is no longer considered normal for ducking out of the rain on the closest porch......well its just a sad sad world. Thankfully if I see a downpour and a kid run up on a porch and put up his hoodie, my first thoughts are "getting out of the rain" instead of SHOOOOOOOOT THAT ****

(and for the record, i'm only in my 30s....not 100).

Aedrys
03-20-2012, 03:00 PM
So what does that mean, that he deserved to be killed for looking suspicious? A lot of people look suspicious. That doesn't give anyone the right to chase them down and kill them. That is the problem here.

BBM

An unknown person goes on to a porch at dusk, pulls up a hoodie covering his face, in a suburb of the US city with the THIRD HIGHEST crime rate in the country looks suspicious to me. Why would he have to go to the porch to pull the hoodie up? It's not as though he stood there waiting to dry, or the rain to subside. By the description, he walked under the porch, pulled the hoodie up, and returned to the street. I could see how an observer would take that as suspicious.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2011/02/16/the-11-most-dangerous-cities



Tray ducks under a random porch to avoid the rain and put his hoodie up, then goes back to the sidewalk to start walking towards home again.

nursebeeme
03-20-2012, 03:01 PM
BBM

An unknown person goes on to a porch at dusk, pulls up a hoodie covering his face, in a suburb of the US city with the THIRD HIGHEST crime rate in the country looks suspicious to me. Why would he have to go to the porch to pull the hoodie up? It's not as though he stood there waiting to dry, or the rain to subside. By the description, he walked under the porch, pulled the hoodie up, and returned to the street. I could see how an observer would take that as suspicious.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2011/02/16/the-11-most-dangerous-cities



Tray ducks under a random porch to avoid the rain and put his hoodie up, then goes back to the sidewalk to start walking towards home again.

he was a kid... I could easily see my son doing the same thing if it started pouring rain on his head.

as for what people saw as suspicious they could call it in... but no need for pulling out a gun

:moo:

knicksgal1
03-20-2012, 03:01 PM
This case breaks my heart, makes me so angry and sick to my stomach. No one was in danger from Trayvon. If his killer thought he was suspicious then he had completed his duty as "neighborhood watch" by reporting it to the police. He should have listened to the operator and stayed in his car. He should be charged with first degree murder and if he truly used that slur on the 911 tape, it is a hate crime. The police chief should resign and that department should be investigated. None of which will be justice because Trayvon is gone but we must prevent this from happening again.

annalia
03-20-2012, 03:02 PM
If it' raining out and someone ducks under a porch then goes right back out after putting their hoodie up, how hard is it to see that they might have been trying to get out of the rain? Especally a kid. My daughter lived in a hoodie, she'd wear her hoodie up just to hide her hair, if she didn't feel like fixing her hair when she went somewhere for a short period of time, I wonder if she might have been called a criminal in the dark and rain.

If someone looks suspicious call the police, no one has the right to chase them carrying a gun.

As far as all of these burglaries, it was reported that in the past year, prior to GZ's 911 call, there were 8 burglaries. I don't know but that doesn't sound like a major crime wave. We live in a middle class area, considered safe and we've had at least 8 burglaries in a years time.

rossva
03-20-2012, 03:04 PM
BBM Way O/T but do you have any Asian friends to base that statement on? Racism towards Asian is extremely wide spread. If you go to GOOGLE, and have auto fill on it enabled, type in the word RACISM, the first autofill is racism against Asians.



I can't believe Zimmerman's father said that because his son is Hispanic he can't be racist? Living in Florida all my life, I can assure you that there are Hispanic people who are racist against black and white people. There are black people who are racist against white and hispanic people! There are white people who are racist against hispanic and black people!

Asian's seem to have it pretty good! Because I rarely see any racism against Asian people?

Pointing out that Zimmerman is Hispanic does not mean that he wasn't racist!

SuziQ
03-20-2012, 03:09 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/traynor-martin-arrest-now-abc-reveals-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T2jNwtU_I3w


1. Sounds like GZ was looking for more than a street sign.
2. If Trayvon ran, how did GZ catch up to him? I think Trayvon played football?
3. Did GZ take a short cut, or did Trayvon think he was in the clear and let his guard down?
4. Doesn't sound like GZ gave Trayvon a chance to explain what he was doing there, which is what I have thought from the beginning. If GZ was told Trayvon lived in the neighborhood, then Trayvon should not have been a John Doe.
5. I wonder if they struggled more than once, like, in more than one location.

I think when the Feds make GZ tell his own story with no prompting, and possibly make him reenact what he says happened, this will all be clear.

JMO, I think Trayvon dodged GZ and the car by walking between buildings toward another road. I think this is what prompted GZ to get out of his car and go after him. Then suddenly GZ was there in person.

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 03:10 PM
BBM Way O/T but do you have any Asain friends to base that statement on? Racism towards Asian is extremely wide spread. If you go to GOOGLE, and have auto fill on it enabled, type in the word RACISM, the first autofill is racism against Asians.

I have a great deal of Asian friends from many different Asian countries! I have a great deal of Black friends from many countries! I have a great deal of Hispanic friends from many countries! I have a great deal of White friends from many countries.

I'm going off what I have experienced where I am from, rossva, and from my personal experience, where I am from, Asians don't have it as bad as the rest of us when it comes to racism. It always seems to be more between White, Black, and Hispanic.

HiHater
03-20-2012, 03:17 PM
BBM

An unknown person goes on to a porch at dusk, pulls up a hoodie covering his face, in a suburb of the US city with the THIRD HIGHEST crime rate in the country looks suspicious to me. Why would he have to go to the porch to pull the hoodie up? It's not as though he stood there waiting to dry, or the rain to subside. By the description, he walked under the porch, pulled the hoodie up, and returned to the street. I could see how an observer would take that as suspicious.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2011/02/16/the-11-most-dangerous-cities



Tray ducks under a random porch to avoid the rain and put his hoodie up, then goes back to the sidewalk to start walking towards home again.

You might have a point if it had been George Zimmerman's porch. Maybe you would have a point if Trayvon was shot on that porch, because Zimmerman thought he was about to attempt a burglary or something.

Since neither of those scenarios are true....

Just sayin.

Talina
03-20-2012, 03:17 PM
I have a great deal of Asian friends from many different Asian countries! I have a great deal of Black friends from many countries! I have a great deal of Hispanic friends from many countries! I have a great deal of White friends from many countries.

I'm going off what I have experienced where I am from, rossva, and from my personal experience, where I am from, Asians don't have it as bad as the rest of us when it comes to racism. It always seems to be more between White, Black, and Hispanic.

What you are describing has been my own personal experience as well and quite honestly, I've always been a bit perplexed by it.

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 03:17 PM
The petition has reached over 600,000 signatures!

http://www.change.org/petitions/prosecute-the-killer-of-our-son-17-year-old-trayvon-martin

rossva
03-20-2012, 03:20 PM
I agree; Martin didn't deserve to be killed. What I am looking at are all the circumstances that led up to the confrontation.

If I saw some one do what Martin did, I most likely would have called 911 and reported it also. I may have also followed and observed at a safe distance till LE did infact arrive, especially if there had been unsolved breakins recently. I would not have gone up to him personally, nor would I have carried a weapon.

The problem is there is only one living person who knows exactly what happened. It is possible what Zimmerman is claiming is EXACTLY what happened that night. It's also just as POSSIBLE that Zimmerman called out to Martin, Martin stopped, and Zimmerman just shot him point blank.

So what does that mean, that he deserved to be killed for looking suspicious? A lot of people look suspicious. That doesn't give anyone the right to chase them down and kill them. That is the problem here.

gitana1
03-20-2012, 03:23 PM
If you read the actual statute it does have a part on using deadly force by an aggressor.
You have been alerting everyone as to the ramifications of this law from the beginning of this case. Few have listened. But it's all over the papers and radio now. I still think Zimmerman can be prosecuted, the law notwithstanding. But I will review it more deeply. Thanks for sounding the alarm.

rossva
03-20-2012, 03:24 PM
In addition to the discussion's going on, should we perhaps discuss why Zimmerman was able to get a concealed carry permit in the first place? Are Florida's laws regarding that too lax?

Talina
03-20-2012, 03:25 PM
You might have a point if it had been George Zimmerman's porch. Maybe you would have a point if Trayvon was shot on that porch, because Zimmerman thought he was about to attempt a burglary or something.

Since neither of those scenarios are true....

Just sayin.

Good point.

To also further that, if a person were to see someone that they thought was suspicious on a neighbor's porch, I can't imagine approaching and confronting that person. I believe the proper thing to do is call 911.

I understand the premise of standing your ground and self defense and I agree with there being protections under the law such as this; however, I see NOTHING at all in this situation that even remotely leads me to believe self defense had anything to do with Zimmerman pulling the trigger on his gun. I'd like to ask Zimmerman one question: "Precisely at what point in your pursuit and following Tray did you switch roles and you become the hunted with him being the hunter?"

It seems very apparent to me that it was Tray that stopped and stood his ground against his aggressor, not the other way around.

IMO

daisy7
03-20-2012, 03:29 PM
Zimmerman said he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck, police said. He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/20/2703918_p2/lawyer-girl-on-phone-with-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy

I just read about his excuse for getting out of of his car. Where did this statement come from? Wonder what his explanation was for chasing Trayvon as evidenced in his own 911 call?

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 03:32 PM
Zimmerman said he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck, police said. He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/20/2703918_p2/lawyer-girl-on-phone-with-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy

I just read about his excuse for getting out of of his car. Where did this statement come from? Wonder what his explanation was for chasing Trayvon as evidenced in his own 911 call?

It's just a big mess! I want to listen to the actual interview with Zimmerman that recorded his statements about what happened that night... if one even exists?! :banghead:

Wise Old Owl
03-20-2012, 03:34 PM
Zimmerman said he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck, police said. He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/20/2703918_p2/lawyer-girl-on-phone-with-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy

I just read about his excuse for getting out of of his car. Where did this statement come from? Wonder what his explanation was for chasing Trayvon as evidenced in his own 911 call?
ITA Daisy - but if you listen on the 911 call, GZ clearly states the name of a street - early on, in the beginning. He knew the street names - you bet on that. No way am I going to believe he got out of his truck to see the street sign.

JMHO

SuziQ
03-20-2012, 03:35 PM
Zimmerman said he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck, police said. He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/20/2703918_p2/lawyer-girl-on-phone-with-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy

I just read about his excuse for getting out of of his car. Where did this statement come from? Wonder what his explanation was for chasing Trayvon as evidenced in his own 911 call?

It says it came from police. IIRC, in other articles it actually was a statement made by Lee. Sorry I don't have a link for you.

wishuwerehere
03-20-2012, 03:36 PM
ITA Daisy - but if you listen on the 911 call, GZ clearly states the name of a street - early on, in the beginning. He knew the street names - you bet on that. No way am I going to believe he got out of his truck to see the street sign.

JMHO

Agreed.

If Zimmerman was the neighborhood “watch” captain, and it has been reported that he called 911 46 times last year, wouldn’t he know the names of the streets in that area like the back of his hand? So, no need to get out of his vehicle, right?

jmo

Talina
03-20-2012, 03:40 PM
Zimmerman said he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck, police said. He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/20/2703918_p2/lawyer-girl-on-phone-with-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy

I just read about his excuse for getting out of of his car. Where did this statement come from? Wonder what his explanation was for chasing Trayvon as evidenced in his own 911 call?

That clearly does not correlate with what he is describing on his 911 call. He's already out of his vehicle following and pursuing Tray while he is on the phone with 911 operator.

I wonder where in his story line does he then get back into his car, get out again to look at the street name and then is ambushed from behind by Tray.

That story also does not match at all what Tray's girlfriend is saying she overheard.

I'm thinking we'll now hear several different versions from Zimmerman about what happened that fateful day because a lie is harder to remember than the truth.

IMO

Lovejac
03-20-2012, 03:43 PM
"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

If it were a cell phone, wouldn't GZ have seen him on the phone? I'm guessing he wouldn't have wanted to confront anyone if he saw them on the phone talking. But if it were a blue tooth/ear piece, it's possible he couldn't see it. I guess it doesn't matter at this point and I don't know why it's bugging me. MOO

Remember, it was rainy and Trayvon was wearing his hood up. GZ probably wasn't able to see it.

Anadarko
03-20-2012, 03:44 PM
Zimmerman said he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck, police said. He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/20/2703918_p2/lawyer-girl-on-phone-with-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy

I just read about his excuse for getting out of of his car. Where did this statement come from? Wonder what his explanation was for chasing Trayvon as evidenced in his own 911 call?

Wasn't he on neighborhood watch patrol? Shouldn't he already know the names of the streets? Who does he think he's kidding?

GZ was following TM, against the advice of the dispatcher. So how did he get attacked from behind?

Lovejac
03-20-2012, 03:46 PM
Change.org released a list Tuesday of celebrities who are supporting an online petition for Trayvon Martin.

Read more: http://www.wesh.com/slideshow/news/30722566/detail.html#ixzz1pgGv1FNv

Hooray! Thank you, thank you, thank you Hollywood peeps!

ETA: imagine how many fans they can reach with just one tweet!!

Talina
03-20-2012, 03:46 PM
Remember, it was rainy and Trayvon was wearing his hood up. GZ probably wasn't able to see it.

I'm thinking GZ had no idea that Trayvon was on the phone. His girlfriend is quoted in the newspaper article as saying his ear piece fell out while she was one the phone with him, during the verbal exchange she overheard right before their call got disconnected.

I bet that this news release of that conversation/verbal confrontation being overheard is the first Zimmerman is finding out that Tray was on the phone when this all went down.

Surprise, surprise.

IMO

ziggy
03-20-2012, 03:50 PM
This case is tragic. I don't want to attack the "Stand Your Ground" law or conceal carry laws because they are not the problem.

The problem is this individual who seems to have a policeman fantasy. There are bad people who abuse laws designed for good citizens to protect themselves.

This guy will go down eventually. I don't think there is enough evidence for him to successfully argue self defense AND I want justice for this young man.

GiantPickle
03-20-2012, 03:53 PM
Its a natural reaction to duck quickly out of the rain, assess it and as a kid decide "eh, I'll be alright if I put my hood up. I've just got a block more to go." two seconds later. I don't find anything suspicious in that at all. It would have been weirder if he hung out.

I don't necessarily fault GZ for calling 911. If you isolate this incident itself and don't take any of his side comments on the 911 tape in to account, its OK for him to phone in an unknown teen walking in the gated community. It would have been a 2 second well-check from the police and that'd be that. Though it is very creepy, I could almost let GZ following him in the car slide if he followed Trayvon to his final destination instead of hopping out and hunting him down on foot. But GZs history is suspect, then his stalking of the boy and CHOICE to confront what is naturally a freaked out kid with a strange man following him makes this pretty cut and dry murder to me.

Talina
03-20-2012, 04:00 PM
Its a natural reaction to duck quickly out of the rain, assess it and as a kid decide "eh, I'll be alright if I put my hood up. I've just got a block more to go." two seconds later. I don't find anything suspicious in that at all. It would have been weirder if he hung out.

I don't necessarily fault GZ for calling 911. If you isolate this incident itself and don't take any of his side comments on the 911 tape in to account, its OK for him to phone in an unknown teen walking in the gated community. It would have been a 2 second well-check from the police and that'd be that. Though it is very creepy, I could almost let GZ following him in the car slide if he followed Trayvon to his final destination instead of hopping out and hunting him down on foot. But GZs history is suspect, then his stalking of the boy and CHOICE to confront what is naturally a freaked out kid with a strange man following him makes this pretty cut and dry murder to me.

I could really see a scenario like the following happening. An aware neighbor noticing a teen walking through the gated community, doesn't recognize them, sees them on a porch, then leave the porch, follows them to a house they see them walk into then that teen tells parents some weirdo was following me in a car and watching me like he was staking me out or something. Those parents call 911 while at the same time Zimmerman has also called 911 so we have competing 911 calls going on and the police come out to sort it all out.

That, to me, is what should have happened. :rocker:

IMO

jjenny
03-20-2012, 04:12 PM
You have been alerting everyone as to the ramifications of this law from the beginning of this case. Few have listened. But it's all over the papers and radio now. I still think Zimmerman can be prosecuted the law notwithstanding. But I will review it more deeply. Thanks for sounding the alarm.

I agree in that I think he could be prosecuted. But what they are saying the worse he migh face is manslaughter (not murder) because of this law.
And even then its unclear if he can be sucessfully prosecuted.

Yoda
03-20-2012, 04:13 PM
I agree; Martin didn't deserve to be killed. What I am looking at are all the circumstances that led up to the confrontation.

If I saw some one do what Martin did, I most likely would have called 911 and reported it also. I may have also followed and observed at a safe distance till LE did infact arrive, especially if there had been unsolved breakins recently. I would not have gone up to him personally, nor would I have carried a weapon.

The problem is there is only one living person who knows exactly what happened. It is possible what Zimmerman is claiming is EXACTLY what happened that night. It's also just as POSSIBLE that Zimmerman called out to Martin, Martin stopped, and Zimmerman just shot him point blank.
Top line BBM
I respect that. I walked away from posting a few days ago because of the attacks for asking questions.
**
There were not just two or three factors that made this happen. There were thousands. We do not live in a vacuum. Wouldn't people rather convince a person of GZ's guilt by presenting linked facts then by attacking them for asking questions that could be relevant? And asking questions about TM does not mean we think he did anything wrong. * Just like GZ's 42 calls to LE since January are relevant. *ALL of the pieces are important. Just because one person might not think a fact is relevant doesn't mean others don't- the same with jurors. *And I am sure, at trial, GZ's lawyer will be using any information he can to show doubt to the jury.
Jmo

jjenny
03-20-2012, 04:13 PM
In addition to the discussion's going on, should we perhaps discuss why Zimmerman was able to get a concealed carry permit in the first place? Are Florida's laws regarding that too lax?

He isn't a convicted felon so based on gun laws he'd be able to carry gun in any state where one can carry a gun (I think).

jjenny
03-20-2012, 04:14 PM
Top line BBM
I respect that. I walked away from posting a few days ago because of the attacks for asking questions.
**
There were not just two or three factors that made this happen. There were thousands. We do not live in a vacuum. Wouldn't people rather convince a person of GZ's guilt by presenting linked facts then by attacking them for asking questions that could be relevant? And asking questions about TM does not mean we think he did anything wrong. * Just like GZ's 42 calls to LE since January are relevant. *ALL of the pieces are important. Just because one person might not think a fact is relevant doesn't mean others don't- the same with jurors. *And I am sure, at trial, GZ's lawyer will be using any information he can to show doubt to the jury.
Jmo

It won't be a jury. Because of "stand your ground" law this will go to a judge.

jjenny
03-20-2012, 04:16 PM
That's what I thought! Something is seriously wrong here that he claimed self defense and apparently the police accepted it and let him go. Sounds like a good ol' boy network or something. I have NEVER heard of this just being accepted - it always has to go to court and be argued, especially if the person who was killed was unarmed! Shoot, if it were you or me, we'd have to prove it in court! I think some heads are going to roll in that police department when all is said and done.

Not in FL it doesn't.

Dr.Fessel
03-20-2012, 04:23 PM
It won't be a jury. Because of "stand your ground" law this will go to a judge.

Why do you say that? How does this stand your ground law stop you from being charged with murder or being put in front of a jury?

HiHater
03-20-2012, 04:28 PM
2 Questions/comments

Just because the Stand Your Ground Law exists, doesn't mean it applies to this case. Someone let me know if I'm completely wrong on that.

Stand your ground cases DO go to a jury, but the judge can decide to drop the charges and grant immunity before it gets to that point. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.

TIA

Anadarko
03-20-2012, 04:29 PM
It won't be a jury. Because of "stand your ground" law this will go to a judge.

The 'stand your ground' law would NOT apply here, so why wouldn't it go to a jury? That law is only useful if you are attacked and trying to protect yourself, or your property. It really has zero to do with this case, so I'm not sure why it keeps coming up.

Just because someone wants to tell that lie to LE, doesn't make it so.

daisy7
03-20-2012, 04:33 PM
Trayvon Martin, Silent. We Must Speak.

By Tamara Copeland
President
Washington Regional Association of Grantmakers

By now, you have heard about the 17 year old, African-American boy who was killed tragically on February 26th by a neighborhood watch captain. According to reports, Trayvon was on his way to his dad’s home in a gated community after going to a nearby convenience store. George Zimmerman, the watch captain, saw him and perceived him as a threat to the neighborhood. He said he thought Trayvon was going for a gun. Trayvon only had Skittles and an iced tea in his hand.

As the mother of an African-American male teenager, this event has sickened me. For days, I put it out of my mind. I couldn’t think about it or talk about it. I know what it’s like to have to talk to your teenage son about walking-while-black, driving-while-black, shopping-while-black … simply what it means to be a black male in America. Today, I decided that I had to talk about it. Today, I decided that I had to use my voice to talk about something that too many of us don’t want to talk about or don’t know how to talk about: race and racism.

(snip)

http://giving.wordpress.com/2012/03/20/trayvon-martin-silent-we-must-speak/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+WashingtonGrantmakersDaily+%2 8Washington+Grantmakers+Daily%29

Talina
03-20-2012, 04:39 PM
It won't be a jury. Because of "stand your ground" law this will go to a judge.

I know what you are referring to but I can't find the link.

I don't get that at all. I don't understand how the state supreme court can take away a citizens right to a trial by jury of their peers and instead require that certain charges or laws be tried before a judge.

That seems like it would violate a person's rights.

IMO

jjenny
03-20-2012, 04:40 PM
The 'stand your ground' law would NOT apply here, so why wouldn't it go to a jury? That law is only useful if you are attacked and trying to protect yourself, or your property. It really has zero to do with this case, so I'm not sure why it keeps coming up.

Just because someone wants to tell that lie to LE, doesn't make it so.

Did you read the actual law? It has everything to do with this case, that's why it keeps coming up.

Sensei
03-20-2012, 04:40 PM
The 'stand your ground' law would NOT apply here, so why wouldn't it go to a jury? That law is only useful if you are attacked and trying to protect yourself, or your property. It really has zero to do with this case, so I'm not sure why it keeps coming up.

Just because someone wants to tell that lie to LE, doesn't make it so.

Thanks, someone needed to try and explain that. Just because a person claims that a shooting is in self defense does not make it a fact, not even in Florida. In many and I hope MOST jurisdictions things would have gone very very differently and nobody would be even discussing "Stand your ground"

In normal circumstances when the police roll up on a scene where one person is dead, and the other admits to being the shooter several things happen that simply did not happen here. The police take pictures and document any injuries that the shooter has, they take a statement, they interview neighbors, they collect evidence, the cell phone, they find out about the 911 calls. They have drug and alcohol tests done on both the shooter and the deceased. They look at the totality of the circumstances and turn all the actual evidence they have over to the Prosecutors office.

What they don't do is hear the shooter say it was self defense, and shrug and say OK and send him on his way. They don't NOT ask questions, document evidence, they don't simply NOT bother to try and discover if this was truly self defense....and in this case that will bite them on the butt hard, because there is ample if not an over abundance of actual evidence that shows that this was anything BUT self defense....stand your ground is NOT going to be Zimmermans get out of jail free card because the evidence show quite plainly that he was NOT defending himself.

Just because he says it does not make it so.

jjenny
03-20-2012, 04:40 PM
I know what you are referring to but I can't find the link.

I don't get that at all. I don't understand how the state supreme court can take away a citizens right to a trial by jury of their peers and instead require that certain charges or laws be tried before a judge.

That seems like it would violate a person's rights.

IMO

I already posted it somewhere on this thread. Because Zimmerman claims self-defense a judge will get to decide.

Talina
03-20-2012, 04:41 PM
Trayvon Martin, Silent. We Must Speak.

By Tamara Copeland
President
Washington Regional Association of Grantmakers

By now, you have heard about the 17 year old, African-American boy who was killed tragically on February 26th by a neighborhood watch captain. According to reports, Trayvon was on his way to his dad’s home in a gated community after going to a nearby convenience store. George Zimmerman, the watch captain, saw him and perceived him as a threat to the neighborhood. He said he thought Trayvon was going for a gun. Trayvon only had Skittles and an iced tea in his hand.

As the mother of an African-American male teenager, this event has sickened me. For days, I put it out of my mind. I couldn’t think about it or talk about it. I know what it’s like to have to talk to your teenage son about walking-while-black, driving-while-black, shopping-while-black … simply what it means to be a black male in America. Today, I decided that I had to talk about it. Today, I decided that I had to use my voice to talk about something that too many of us don’t want to talk about or don’t know how to talk about: race and racism.

(snip)

http://giving.wordpress.com/2012/03/20/trayvon-martin-silent-we-must-speak/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+WashingtonGrantmakersDaily+%2 8Washington+Grantmakers+Daily%29

BBM

Well, that's the first time I've seen that said. Where did that come from? I've seen the mention of his hand on his waist but nothing I've read or heard says anything at all about Zimmerman thinking Tray was reaching for a gun. Good grief.

Isabelle
03-20-2012, 04:41 PM
Did you read the actual law? It has everything to do with this case, that's why it keeps coming up.

Yes, it can be seen to have 'everything to do with this case' and any other similar case, as long as the truth is told!

tlcya
03-20-2012, 04:42 PM
Zimmerman said he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck, police said. He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/20/2703918_p2/lawyer-girl-on-phone-with-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy

I just read about his excuse for getting out of of his car. Where did this statement come from? Wonder what his explanation was for chasing Trayvon as evidenced in his own 911 call?

So Zimmerman claims he wasn't sure what street he was on and that is the reason he got out of his car? Am I understanding this correctly? The man who spent hours and hours of his time, proudly patrolling this neighborhood, captain of the watch. The man who spent enough time doing so to have phoned police approximately 50 times regarding suspcious activity in said neighborhood in 2011, the man who made other neighbors uncomfortable because he was so up in their business, THAT MAN WAS UNSURE WHAT STREET HE WAS ON?!?

I gotta cry foul. That is the most ridiculous excuse I have ever heard. Does not pass the straight face test. Not even a little. He has spent weeks hiding from the public and THIS is the excuse he managed to come up with in all that time? :burn:

Talina
03-20-2012, 04:42 PM
I already posted it somewhere on this thread. Because Zimmerman claims self-defense a judge will get to decide.

Yes, I know you posted it. I read it when you did.

I am saying I don't see how that can be right that this law regarding self defense is tried before a judge and not a jury. I don't see how that is constitutional.

jjenny
03-20-2012, 04:48 PM
Yes, I know you posted it. I read it when you did.

I am saying I don't see how that can be right that this law regarding self defense is tried before a judge and not a jury. I don't see how that is constitutional.



I am not sure either-but I am not a lawyer. Maybe the judge first has to decide whether it can even go to the jury if he is arrested? All I know is that experts think this law makes it hard for Zimmerman to even be prosecuted, let alone successfully. Because of this law, state would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt Zimmerman didn't act in self defense-so much for "self-defense" being an affirmative defense.


"McClatchy Newspapers reports that "legal experts say Zimmerman, if arrested, would probably be charged with manslaughter and not murder -- and would have a strong defense under Florida's law, with a judge needing to decide first whether he is immune from prosecution." As Mother Jones points out, Florida courts have found that under that statute, "defendant's only burden is to offer facts from which his resort to force could have been reasonable" while "the State has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense.""


http://mediamatters.org/blog/201203200009

tlcya
03-20-2012, 04:48 PM
Thanks, someone needed to try and explain that. Just because a person claims that a shooting is in self defense does not make it a fact, not even in Florida. In many and I hope MOST jurisdictions things would have gone very very differently and nobody would be even discussing "Stand your ground"

In normal circumstances when the police roll up on a scene where one person is dead, and the other admits to being the shooter several things happen that simply did not happen here. The police take pictures and document any injuries that the shooter has, they take a statement, they interview neighbors, they collect evidence, the cell phone, they find out about the 911 calls. They have drug and alcohol tests done on both the shooter and the deceased. They look at the totality of the circumstances and turn all the actual evidence they have over to the Prosecutors office.

What they don't do is hear the shooter say it was self defense, and shrug and say OK and send him on his way. They don't NOT ask questions, document evidence, they don't simply NOT bother to try and discover if this was truly self defense....and in this case that will bite them on the butt hard, because there is ample if not an over abundance of actual evidence that shows that this was anything BUT self defense....stand your ground is NOT going to be Zimmermans get out of jail free card because the evidence show quite plainly that he was NOT defending himself.

Just because he says it does not make it so.

BBM Agreed. It does not. But the fact that LE never even bothered to take GZ to the station, question him more closely to try to determine if he was telling the truth with his cockamamie self defense story, indicates that LE is interpreting the law incorrectly and applying it to GZ. That makes the stand your ground law have everything to do with this case IMO. Not because it actually applies, but because it has already been applied in error.

Talina
03-20-2012, 04:51 PM
Did you read the actual law? It has everything to do with this case, that's why it keeps coming up.

Just bouncing off your post and not necessarily asking this particular question of you.

I've been wondering how this even came up to begin with regarding the stand your ground law being applicable in this situation.

It would seem to me that it would be a defendant that would claim protection under this law after having been charged and arrested.

How is it that GZ is not even arrested, but instead is interviewed and let go. He's let go with no threat of a future arrest. No "pending further investigation" release, etc. Just straight up LE says based on this law, they can not arrest him. Is that really the role that LE is supposed to be fulfilling?

I wouldn't think that is a decision to be made by LE at all. I would think that would be a decision for prosecutors to make and clearly they are now with paneling a grand jury but why was LE so quick out of the shoot to say nothing to see here folks, move along.

GZ would have had to known that he had this option before him to get him out of this predicament. But how is it that he knew to reference that "stand your ground" law as his defense off the cuff that night when this all went down? Based on what I'm hearing and reading about the LE in that area of Florida, particularly the detective on the scene and his history, I wouldn't be surprised at all to find out that the LE coached him on what to say and that they'd then say nothing they could do since he claimed self defense.

I'm normally not this negative about police and detectives but something about this whole case stinks to high heaven.

IMO

daisy7
03-20-2012, 04:52 PM
It won't be a jury. Because of "stand your ground" law this will go to a judge.

There is nothing in the FL statutes that states any "Stand your Ground" case will go before a judge. And, there is nothing that states that people who use this excuse cannot be arrested.

Recently, a man was found guilty of manslaughter and murder by a jury, even though he used the "Stand Your Ground" defense.

TAMPA — He had killed a man over a car, but for six years towing company owner Donald Montanez walked free on bail.

He continued to tow while the victim's family waited on a trial and a verdict.

It came Thursday. After nearly 12 hours of deliberation, six jurors found Montanez guilty of manslaughter and third-degree felony murder because he was committing grand theft auto when he fatally shot Glen Rich.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/jurors-find-donald-montanez-guilty-of-manslaughter-third-degree-murder/1217945

jjenny
03-20-2012, 04:52 PM
So Zimmerman claims he wasn't sure what street he was on and that is the reason he got out of his car? Am I understanding this correctly? The man who spent hours and hours of his time, proudly patrolling this neighborhood, captain of the watch. The man who spent enough time doing so to have phoned police approximately 50 times regarding suspcious activity in said neighborhood in 2011, the man who made other neighbors uncomfortable because he was so up in their business, THAT MAN WAS UNSURE WHAT STREET HE WAS ON?!?

I gotta cry foul. That is the most ridiculous excuse I have ever heard. Does not pass the straight face test. Not even a little. He has spent weeks hiding from the public and THIS is the excuse he managed to come up with in all that time? :burn:

I think we need to get a hold of a police report to know what exactly Zimmerman is claiming. I am not sure where the idea that he was looking for street name is coming from.

Sensei
03-20-2012, 04:53 PM
Yes, I know you posted it. I read it when you did.

I am saying I don't see how that can be right that this law regarding self defense is tried before a judge and not a jury. I don't see how that is constitutional.

A Judge get to decide if the Stand your Ground defense even applies to the case, if he decides that it does he can simply dismiss all charges before the case goes to trial....but that is not an automatic stamp, he gets to decide if stand your ground applies and if it does not then the charge is whatever it is, and that is decided by a Jury

tlcya
03-20-2012, 04:53 PM
“I can say very confidently we would welcome any outside entity that wants to come look at what we did,” Lee said last week. “They are welcome to come here and look at it. We have not done anything but conduct a fair and complete investigation.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/20/2703918_p2/lawyer-girl-on-phone-with-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy

I am usually a staunch and fierce defender and fan of Law Enforcement. I cannot say that I find the chief's assurances at all comforting.

A full investigation would involve actually asking the shooter some tough questions, gathering evidence, interviewing witnesses and neighbors, none of which apparently happened here. oh and not "correcting" witness testimony in official police reports, which reportedly DID happen.

Again, huge supporter of LE in general, not of this department though. I really think they flubbed this thing, badly.

HiHater
03-20-2012, 04:54 PM
BBM Agreed. It does not. But the fact that LE never even bothered to take GZ to the station, question him more closely to try to determine if he was telling the truth with his cockamamie self defense story, indicates that LE is interpreting the law incorrectly and applying it to GZ. That makes the stand your ground law have everything to do with this case IMO. Not because it actually applies, but because it has already been applied in error.

Very well said tlcox. This is happening backwards. Police don't usually get involved in legal theory, they collect evidence for an investigation. I'm not sure that their investigation should have been tailored toward proving or disproving anything. They are the primary fact-finders, so to speak.

In this case, they definitely got tunnel vision and ruled out other possibilities prematurely. Just because you have a murderer and a victim doesn't make it a police job to prove motive. JMO

Isabelle
03-20-2012, 04:54 PM
The stand your ground law needs to be abolished. It seems to give many a license to kill when they are moved to do so. If everyone carried a gun and were all on the same page, this law would be fair. At this point this is a very dangerous law for innocent victims living amongst those who kill for a thrill!

Anadarko
03-20-2012, 04:56 PM
Did you read the actual law? It has everything to do with this case, that's why it keeps coming up.

I don't need to read the entire law, as this was not a case of self defense. GZ CLAIMING this was self-defense, and the SPD believing his CLAIM, doesn't make it TRUE.

jjenny
03-20-2012, 04:56 PM
There is nothing in the FL statutes that states any "Stand your Ground" case will go before a judge. And, there is nothing that states that people who use this excuse cannot be arrested.

Recently, a man was found guilty of manslaughter and murder by a jury, even though he used the "Stand Your Ground" defense.



http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/criminal/jurors-find-donald-montanez-guilty-of-manslaughter-third-degree-murder/1217945

I already posted the link but here it is again. Florida's supreme court decided these cases must go before a judge before they can even be tried.

"The "Stand Your Ground" law also expanded protection to people who fear for their lives when approached in their vehicle or a boat or walking down the street. The Florida Supreme Court has since decided that judges need to evaluate a defendant's claim for protection under "Stand Your Ground" before trial."


http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2011-09-12/news/fl-boat-shooting-defense-20110912_1_murder-charges-michael-monahan-controversial-state-law

Talina
03-20-2012, 04:56 PM
I am not sure either-but I am not a lawyer. Maybe the judge first has to decide whether it can even go to the jury if he is arrested? All I know is that experts think this law makes it hard for Zimmerman to even be prosecuted, let alone successfully. Because of this law, state would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt Zimmerman didn't act in self defense-so much for "self-defense" being an affirmative defense.


"McClatchy Newspapers reports that "legal experts say Zimmerman, if arrested, would probably be charged with manslaughter and not murder -- and would have a strong defense under Florida's law, with a judge needing to decide first whether he is immune from prosecution." As Mother Jones points out, Florida courts have found that under that statute, "defendant's only burden is to offer facts from which his resort to force could have been reasonable" while "the State has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense.""


http://mediamatters.org/blog/201203200009

I think there is a strong argument, though, that could be made by a good prosecutor that the stand your ground law does not apply since he was the aggressor and pursued the victim. Seems to me that would be the first argument that the judge would have to rule on and then based on that ruling, they go from there. Needless to say, it will be very interesting to see how this all unfolds with whether or not that law applies to this incident.

I honestly do not see how it could.

IMO

ETA: I just read that article again that explains the process and it is not that the accused is tried by the judge. The ruling by the state supreme court is that if a person accused of crime using deadly force is going to use that law as a defense, that a judge must first rule on that defense first before the person can be taken to trial. If the judge does feel the circumstances are protected under that law, then the person doesn't go to trial and charges are dropped. Other wise, off the trial they go. So, first a judge has to rule whether or not Zimmerman's actions are protected under the stand your ground law. If not or perhaps if there is any question at all, off to trial he goes and let a jury sort it out.

Based on all the cases I've been able to find that were determined to have been protected under this law were in no way similar at all to this particular shooting.

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 04:58 PM
I've been watching Trayvon's petition for an hour and it's averaging almost 158 signatures a minute. 9,472 signatures in an hour! I also think they're having a little technical difficulty because over 600 signatures in one minute at one point and the site is moving slow?

So glad so many people are getting involved!

Sensei
03-20-2012, 05:01 PM
BBM Agreed. It does not. But the fact that LE never even bothered to take GZ to the station, question him more closely to try to determine if he was telling the truth with his cockamamie self defense story, indicates that LE is interpreting the law incorrectly and applying it to GZ. That makes the stand your ground law have everything to do with this case IMO. Not because it actually applies, but because it has already been applied in error.

And on that we totally agree.

In this case however it appears that the problem in Sanford Florida is with the police department or portions thereof, and not the law per se.

annalia
03-20-2012, 05:03 PM
“I can say very confidently we would welcome any outside entity that wants to come look at what we did,” Lee said last week. “They are welcome to come here and look at it. We have not done anything but conduct a fair and complete investigation.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/20/2703918_p2/lawyer-girl-on-phone-with-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy

I am usually a staunch and fierce defender and fan of Law Enforcement. I cannot say that I find the chief's assurances at all comforting.

A full investigation would involve actually asking the shooter some tough questions, gathering evidence, interviewing witnesses and neighbors, none of which apparently happened here. oh and not "correcting" witness testimony in official police reports, which reportedly DID happen.

Again, huge supporter of LE in general, not of this department though. I really think they flubbed this thing, badly.

Isn't that the same chief who already said that Tray didn't have a right to jump GZ simply because he was asked if he lives there? Seems the chief was judge and jury in a matter of minutes, no actual investigation was necessary.

How can it can be that now it's being said that GZ was jumped from behind while he was simply walking back to his car after looking for the street address, when Lee said that GZ asked Trayzon if he lived there????

tlcya
03-20-2012, 05:03 PM
They are up to 500,000 signatures thus far. This has really gotten the attention of people all across the country. I am glad, this story should be on the national radar and justice will only happen if it stays there IMO.

annalia
03-20-2012, 05:05 PM
Another thing that is concerning is that GZ has had quite a while now to try to perfect his story.

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 05:05 PM
They are up to 500,000 signatures thus far. This has really gotten the attention of people all across the country. I am glad, this story should be on the national radar and justice will only happen if it stays there IMO.

They are at 622,127 signatures as of 3 minutes ago.

2,572 signatures in the last ten minutes!! Woooo Hooooo! That's an average of 250 signatures a minute.

Talina
03-20-2012, 05:14 PM
They are at 622,127 signatures as of 3 minutes ago.

2,572 signatures in the last ten minutes!! Woooo Hooooo! That's an average of 250 signatures a minute.

Wow. I signed it yesterday and there was slightly over 300,000.

Talina
03-20-2012, 05:16 PM
Watching HLN right now and saw a tape clip of the police news conference with the LE (I think it was Lee) saying that Mr Zimmerman has made a claim of self defense.

Well, IMO, Chief Lee has self appointed himself into the role of the judge in ruling that the stand your ground law applies here. I don't think that falls under his job description. I believe the state supreme court said a judge is to make that ruling, not a police department.

IMO

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 05:17 PM
Wow. I signed it yesterday and there was slightly over 300,000.

I'm writing down the number of signatures every ten minutes to get a feel for how many people are signing and how long it will take to get to a million? It's been only four minutes or so and there's already 1,000 more signatures. :woohoo:

ETA: In this past ten minutes 2,693 more signatures were added to Trayvon's petition. That's almost 270 signatures a minute!

gitana1
03-20-2012, 05:17 PM
Is there anything to indicate that the overall homicide rate went up? Or are we just seeing people who would normally (without the law) be murder victims turn the tables on their attackers?

I heard on the radio that justifiable homicides have increased and that there were actually some gang-involved shootings in which the stand your ground law allowed them to claim self-defense and get away with what would have been called murder.

That being said, I have now reviewed the statute and I do believe that Zimmerman can be prosecuted. Section 3 of the law states:
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.However, if a person is being pursued, and attacks their pursuer if the pursuer is not a LE official, then my interpretation of the law is it would not be a defense to homicide in such a case.

Nevertheless, there are enough pundits criticizing the law to make Jjenny's
concerns quite valid. I think it should be re-written to make it very clear that if you are attacked while pursuing someone, you need to retreat before the law applies.

daisy7
03-20-2012, 05:19 PM
I already posted the link but here it is again. Florida's supreme court decided these cases must go before a judge before they can even be tried.

"The "Stand Your Ground" law also expanded protection to people who fear for their lives when approached in their vehicle or a boat or walking down the street. The Florida Supreme Court has since decided that judges need to evaluate a defendant's claim for protection under "Stand Your Ground" before trial."


http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2011-09-12/news/fl-boat-shooting-defense-20110912_1_murder-charges-michael-monahan-controversial-state-law

Defendants have always had to first go before a judge when they are charged with a crime. The judge is free to dismiss the charges as he/she sees fit. This is not a new process with the "Stand Your Ground Law."

Do you have a link to the FL SC case cited in the article?

Emeralgem
03-20-2012, 05:20 PM
They are at 622,127 signatures as of 3 minutes ago.

2,572 signatures in the last ten minutes!! Woooo Hooooo! That's an average of 250 signatures a minute.

I just signed it... Right now I'm sick of LE everywhere not doing their job to find out the truth in regards to what has really happened in many of the victim's cases we follow here... JMHO

RANCH
03-20-2012, 05:21 PM
I heard on the radio that justifiable homicides have increased and that there were actually some gang-involved shootings in which the stand your ground law allowed them to claim self-defense and get away with what would have been called murder.

That being said, I have now reviewed the statute and I do believe that Zimmerman can be prosecuted. Section 3 of the law states:
However, if a person is being pursued, and attacks their pursuer if the pursuer is not a LE official, then my interpretation of the law is it would not be a defense to homicide in such a case.

Nevertheless, there are enough pundits criticizing the law to make Jjenny's
concerns quite valid. I think it should be re-written to make it very clear that if you are attacked while pursuing someone, you need to retreat before the law applies.
So your saying that the pursuit is the "unlawful activity" that negates the self-defense claim?

tlcya
03-20-2012, 05:22 PM
And on that we totally agree.

In this case however it appears that the problem in Sanford Florida is with the police department or portions thereof, and not the law per se.

I am not prepared to debate the stand your ground law and its possible merits as, honestly, I had never heard of it before this tragic shooting.

I must say I have never heard of a case where police officers in the field interpreted the law and choose to investigate or not based on their own interpretation thereof. That is scary scary stuff. I don't need law enforcement interpreting the law. that is what the lawyers, judges, juries and court system is for in general.

Who are police to determine such things?? Their role is to protect and investigate, not decide or adjudicate anything.

JeannaT
03-20-2012, 05:40 PM
The case has gone to the prosecutor, hasn't it, for a determination of whether to press charges? I think this often happens - police arrive and make a determination that something was an accident, or self-defense, and decide at that moment not to make an arrest but it is investigated and a prosecutor looks at the investigation and makes a decision whether to attempt to prosecute. LE has now finished their investigation and turned over their information, although the prosecutor has followed this case already and has stated (according to Lee) that this case isn't really prosecutable due to lack of any evidence that Zimmerman is lying. But that statement was informal - the formal announcement and decision haven't been made yet I don't think.

SuziQ
03-20-2012, 05:40 PM
I already posted it somewhere on this thread. Because Zimmerman claims self-defense a judge will get to decide.

My understanding is the person who claims self defense only has a jury trial if a judge decides the self defense claim doesn't apply and a murder or manslaughter charge is applicabe. This is what is happening in the Trevor Dooley case right now. A judge is expect to make a decision by the end of this month. Dooley's murder charge will be dropped or will stand and he goes to trial. Well that's my understanding anyways.

Joanner
03-20-2012, 05:41 PM
The girlfriend of Trayvon has come forwarded to say that she was on the phone with him just prior to the "incident" (I'd like to call murder) and the lawyers have the cell phone records to prove it.

Now that this case is going to the grand jury next month, and the presentation of evidence to the grand jury is confidential, how can Trayvon's lawyers be certain that her conversation with Trayvon is presented? Seems to me that she is quite important should be called to testify.

HiHater
03-20-2012, 05:46 PM
So your saying that the pursuit is the "unlawful activity" that negates the self-defense claim?

I can't answer for the person you quoted, but a pursuit is not necessarily unlawful. It does however negate self-defense in this case. People don't usually chase after or run to things that may cause them great bodily harm or to die. JMO

jjenny
03-20-2012, 05:51 PM
My understanding is the person who claims self defense only has a jury trial if a judge decides the self defense claim doesn't apply and a murder or manslaughter charge is applicabe. This is what is happening in the Trevor Dooley case right now. A judge is expect to make a decision by the end of this month. Dooley's murder charge will be dropped or will stand and he goes to trial. Well that's my understanding anyways.

Yes, that is my understanding as well.

tlcya
03-20-2012, 05:53 PM
has the 911 tape been released in its entirety?

That line from the article I linked earlier today, the one about GZ having gotten out of his vehicle to check the street sign? I am curious as to why that was even necessary. Hadn't he already called in the suspicious person and been advised by dispatch that officers were on the way? Wouldn't he have had to give them an addresss or general position on a street to do that?

So how is it that he had reported the suspicious person if he did not even know where he was to report it???

I really want to hear the entire tape of all persons who called 911 regarding this incident. I will bet money he supplies a street name during his initial call about Trayvon. So if that is the case, why then a need to get out of his vehicle to look at a street sign?

I will be really interested to see what other facts and info come out in weeks to come. I really want to know if GZ is saying he got out of the vehicle to check the street sign. The line was not in quotes or ascribed to any particular person.

RANCH
03-20-2012, 05:57 PM
I can't answer for the person you quoted, but a pursuit is not necessarily unlawful. It does however negate self-defense in this case. People don't usually chase after or run to things that may cause them great bodily harm or to die. JMO

Thanks. The reason I asked was because the section of the law that was quoted didn't say anything about "pursuit". So I'm trying to understand how a pursuit fits with the law that was referenced.

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 06:03 PM
I've watched the petition for Tray for the past two hours and there were a total of 20,630 signatures in those two hours! If this pace can continue, there will be a million signatures in 37 hours!

ETA: And just to add the total amount of signatures as of this very moment, it reads 637,339

203_forensics
03-20-2012, 06:05 PM
Maybe I would understand if TM was shot near his truck, but he was in a area where Zimmerman had to of followed. Did any of the 911 calls witnesses give their condo number to see how far GZ followed him from the field house Zimmerman said he had stepped out of his truck to check the name of the street he was on when Trayvon attacked him from behind as he walked back to his truck, police said. He said he feared for his life and fired the semiautomatic handgun he was licensed to carry because he feared for his life.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/20/2703918_p2/lawyer-girl-on-phone-with-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy

I just read about his excuse for getting out of of his car. Where did this statement come from? Wonder what his explanation was for chasing Trayvon as evidenced in his own 911 call?

jjenny
03-20-2012, 06:06 PM
has the 911 tape been released in its entirety?

That line from the article I linked earlier today, the one about GZ having gotten out of his vehicle to check the street sign? I am curious as to why that was even necessary. Hadn't he already called in the suspicious person and been advised by dispatch that officers were on the way? Wouldn't he have had to give them an addresss or general position on a street to do that?

So how is it that he had reported the suspicious person if he did not even know where he was to report it???

I really want to hear the entire tape of all persons who called 911 regarding this incident. I will bet money he supplies a street name during his initial call about Trayvon. So if that is the case, why then a need to get out of his vehicle to look at a street sign?

I will be really interested to see what other facts and info come out in weeks to come. I really want to know if GZ is saying he got out of the vehicle to check the street sign. The line was not in quotes or ascribed to any particular person.
I am not sure where the idea that GZ got out of the truck to check a street sign is coming from. It's not in a 911 call.
I've heard different variations of what exactly GZ is claiming happened.

jjenny
03-20-2012, 06:07 PM
Another thing that is concerning is that GZ has had quite a while now to try to perfect his story.

I don't think he wants it differ from what he told police.

annalia
03-20-2012, 06:15 PM
My understanding is the person who claims self defense only has a jury trial if a judge decides the self defense claim doesn't apply and a murder or manslaughter charge is applicabe. This is what is happening in the Trevor Dooley case right now. A judge is expect to make a decision by the end of this month. Dooley's murder charge will be dropped or will stand and he goes to trial. Well that's my understanding anyways.

I'm only somewhat familiar with this case but Dooley was at least arrested and charged wasn't he?

I think part of the outrage, especially from Trayvon's family, is that LE at the scene decided to just take GZ's account that it was self defense and sent him on his way.

What the chief said, that GZ shouldn't be jumped simply because he asked if Tray lived there is pretty outrageous, especially if he didn't have all the facts.

JMHO

HiHater
03-20-2012, 06:15 PM
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/state-attorney-case-will-be-given-grand-jury-shoot/nLX9c/


The proverbial ***** just hit the fan. This will probably get worse before it gets better.

I hope common sense and peace prevails though...

WFTV uncovered a possible racial slur made by Zimmerman during one of the calls he made to the police department (LISTEN).

This counts as MSM, right?

gitana1
03-20-2012, 06:15 PM
BBM

An unknown person goes on to a porch at dusk, pulls up a hoodie covering his face, in a suburb of the US city with the THIRD HIGHEST crime rate in the country looks suspicious to me. Why would he have to go to the porch to pull the hoodie up? It's not as though he stood there waiting to dry, or the rain to subside. By the description, he walked under the porch, pulled the hoodie up, and returned to the street. I could see how an observer would take that as suspicious.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2011/02/16/the-11-most-dangerous-cities

Tray ducks under a random porch to avoid the rain and put his hoodie up, then goes back to the sidewalk to start walking towards home again.

Taking it as suspicious and calling LE, allowing them to do their job, is one thing. Stalking and then, with gun in hand, chasing down someone you feel is suspicious, but isn't doing anything illegal, is another.

But I don't believe Trayvon was doing anything suspicious at all. Isn't it coming from Zimmerman, that Trayvon was standing on someone's porch? I don't believe a word from that man's mouth. He is a LE officer wanna be, who clearly hates black people, and took it upon himself to be law enforcement, judge, jury and executioner.

I can read between the lines. He's good, Zimmerman. he knew exactly what to say to set up what he felt would be a justifiable homicide. But his "facts" seem very contrived to me and I am certain he is lying.

The only thing suspicious that Trayvon did was be black.

I'd like to also add... the GF's testimony is crucial, because according to GZ, TM ran away, which led to many people, espcially on here question, how did GZ catch a 17 YO athelete. It must have been Tray who confronted Zimmerman, because he could of easily escaped as he continued to run.

Well there you have it... he never ran, thus GZ was able to catch him quite easily, especially with him Tray being on the phone. I think most of what GZ told police initially... was a lie. Tray never walked towards him, Tray never ran away, his hands probably never went to his waistband in a threatening manner. Can't wait to see how GZ fairs in prison.

I agree.

Yes, last night I listened to numerous versions of the 911 call. From youtube, to miamiherald, to wftv, etc... because I wanted to make sure it wasn't somehow edited in by someone. It's clearly on the all of them.

Can you post the calls again?

That's what I thought! Something is seriously wrong here that he claimed self defense and apparently the police accepted it and let him go. Sounds like a good ol' boy network or something. I have NEVER heard of this just being accepted - it always has to go to court and be argued, especially if the person who was killed was unarmed! Shoot, if it were you or me, we'd have to prove it in court! I think some heads are going to roll in that police department when all is said and done.

That police department is known for its racism.

“I can say very confidently we would welcome any outside entity that wants to come look at what we did,” Lee said last week. “They are welcome to come here and look at it. We have not done anything but conduct a fair and complete investigation.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/20/2703918_p2/lawyer-girl-on-phone-with-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy

I am usually a staunch and fierce defender and fan of Law Enforcement. I cannot say that I find the chief's assurances at all comforting.

A full investigation would involve actually asking the shooter some tough questions, gathering evidence, interviewing witnesses and neighbors, none of which apparently happened here. oh and not "correcting" witness testimony in official police reports, which reportedly DID happen.

Again, huge supporter of LE in general, not of this department though. I really think they flubbed this thing, badly.

I think they flubbed it purposefully. They decided a little street justice for the crime of being black was, if not okay, understandable.

Isn't that the same chief who already said that Tray didn't have a right to jump GZ simply because he was asked if he lives there? Seems the chief was judge and jury in a matter of minutes, no actual investigation was necessary.

How can it can be that now it's being said that GZ was jumped from behind while he was simply walking back to his car after looking for the street address, when Lee said that GZ asked Trayzon if he lived there????

This chief disgusts me. He stated that Zimmerman wishes he had done things differently and is sure Trayvon wishes he had too. REally? Like what? What are you supposed to do if you are a kid, taught to beware of strangers, and find some scary guy is stalking you on a dark street, and then chases you with a gun? What, pray tell, was Trayvon supposed to do? He tried to get away from a murderer, IMO. His bad act was being black, nothing more.


So your saying that the pursuit is the "unlawful activity" that negates the self-defense claim?

No. I think that when you stalk someone, chase someone down and then threaten them with a gun, if attacked, you have incited the attack and the law would not apply, period.

But, BTW, I don't think Trayvon attacked this man at all. The girlfriends' statements prove that. Instead, after being stalked, chased and threatened, Zimmerman pushed him, to try to incite him to do something that would justify gunplay. Trayvon then fought back. And in such a case, not only was the attack incited, Zimmerman attacked first, so the law would not apply.

If it did, as others have stated on here, that would mean that a serial killer can stalk and attack a woman and if she fought back, he could kill her justifiably, under the law. No way is the law going to be interpreted that way.

Jjenny is right to be concerned about this law. She's certainly not the only one. Clearly, the police used the law to let a murderer go free. But laws are interpreted by judges in rulings when there is doubt. This law is not going to be interpreted in Zimmerman's favor. It would open too large a can of worms.

Here's a bit of info from wikipedia explaining: Statutory interpretation is the process by which courts interpret and apply legislation. Some amount of interpretation is always necessary when a case involves a statute. Sometimes the words of a statute have a plain and straightforward meaning. But in many cases, there is some ambiguity or vagueness in the words of the statute that must be resolved by the judge. To find the meanings of statutes, judges use various tools and methods of statutory interpretation, including traditional canons of statutory interpretation, legislative history, and purpose. In common law jurisdictions, the judiciary may apply rules of statutory interpretation to legislation enacted by the legislature or to delegated legislation such as administrative agency regulations.Statutory interpretation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

HiHater
03-20-2012, 06:18 PM
I am not sure where the idea that GZ got out of the truck to check a street sign is coming from. It's not in a 911 call.
I've heard different variations of what exactly GZ is claiming happened.

Indeed, Zimmerman got out of the truck, allegedly to check the name of the street he was on, which even Lee said he found implausible given the small size of the complex and the volunteer’s familiarity with it.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/19/2702685_p2/floridas-controversial-self-defense.html#storylink=cpy

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 06:21 PM
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/state-attorney-case-will-be-given-grand-jury-shoot/nLX9c/


The proverbial ***** just hit the fan. This will probably get worse before it gets better.

I hope common sense and peace prevails though...



This counts as MSM, right?

WFTV uncovered it? :floorlaugh:

P.S. I am not laughing about the slur. I'm laughing because WFTV is late. We knew last night.

jjenny
03-20-2012, 06:27 PM
Indeed, Zimmerman got out of the truck, allegedly to check the name of the street he was on, which even Lee said he found implausible given the small size of the complex and the volunteer’s familiarity with it.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/19/2702685_p2/floridas-controversial-self-defense.html#storylink=cpy

I am unclear where that is coming from. It's not a direct quote.

Joanner
03-20-2012, 06:31 PM
I wish I could find the media outlet that postd all of the phone calls made during this incident unedited. During one of the calls, not sure if it was the first one, Zimmerman gave his phone number (it was not edited out) and addresses. The dispatcher wanted Zimmerman to meet law enforcement by some mailboxes. At first Zimmerman said okay, but then changed his mind and said just have the officer call me when he arrives and I will meet him, to me meaning that he wasn't going to wait by the mailboxes as requested and was going to follow Treyvon.

waltzingmatilda
03-20-2012, 06:31 PM
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/state-attorney-case-will-be-given-grand-jury-shoot/nLX9c/


The proverbial ***** just hit the fan. This will probably get worse before it gets better.

I hope common sense and peace prevails though...



This counts as MSM, right?

Thanks for the link HiHater! There is no doubt in my mind that he used a racial slur! It was clear to me.

MOO

wm

rossva
03-20-2012, 06:33 PM
As far as I know, the only carry permit you can get in Florida is a concealed carry permit. Some states, Virginia, for example, you do not need a permit to open (in plain view) carry, but you do need a permit to carry concealed.

Also, as far as I know carry/ concealed carry permits are only valid in the state they are issued. Maybe someone more famiolar with gun laws will know if states have carry/concealed carry reciprocity laws.

Also, anyone know what the process in Florida is to get a permit such as Zimmerman has (assuming he still has it)? Does one need a valid reason to carry?


He isn't a convicted felon so based on gun laws he'd be able to carry gun in any state where one can carry a gun (I think).

ScubaTwinn
03-20-2012, 06:43 PM
"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

Sorry to quote my own post, but why didn't GZ respond with "I'm the neighborhood watch, what are you doing here?" Along with having a vehicle that didn't have anything on the side to indicate that, Trayvon did not know what was going on. HE HAD NO IDEA and apparently didn't get a chance to try to find out.

rossva
03-20-2012, 06:47 PM
I believe it was the person Martin was on the phone with that stated Martin went under a porch, pulled up his hoodie, and returned to the street. I will search for the link.

Watching Brian Williams right now on NBC it sounded like he said the conversation between Martin and his gf was recorded. Any one else hear that?

If true, that will help figure out exactly what happened.

Isn't it coming from Zimmerman, that Trayvon was standing on someone's porch? I don't believe a word from that man's mouth.

CarolinaMoon
03-20-2012, 06:55 PM
I've been jumping from thread to thread today, but I always end up here.

I've just watched Vinnie Politan on HLN go through the case, and even with former Florida Judge, Judge Alex, the situation with the Stand Your Ground Law is still very confusing to me. It sounds like a license to murder to me.

I hope that the recent disclosure of the girlfriend's being on the phone with Trayvon helps clear up the timeline and what actually happened.

I do have one question. When we hear that the case has been turned over to the State's Attorney's office, does this mean that the it will not be the local prosecutors who will present the case to the Grand Jury in April?

Earlier on, possibly on the previous thread, a number of people didn't understand why the case wouldn't go to the Grand Jury until April 10. IMHO, I'm pleased that it will not be rushed. I want the FDLE and FBI to have time to enhance all the audio in this case so every word possible is transcribed. I want to be sure the racial epithet is clear as a bell. I want the Grand Jury to have so much information that they can't help but indict GZ.

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 06:59 PM
http://www.wftv.com/s/watchlive/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Live Rally for Trayvon Martin!

RANCH
03-20-2012, 07:00 PM
As far as I know, the only carry permit you can get in Florida is a concealed carry permit. Some states, Virginia, for example, you do not need a permit to open (in plain view) carry, but you do need a permit to carry concealed.

Also, as far as I know carry/ concealed carry permits are only valid in the state they are issued. Maybe someone more famiolar with gun laws will know if states have carry/concealed carry reciprocity laws.

Also, anyone know what the process in Florida is to get a permit such as Zimmerman has (assuming he still has it)? Does one need a valid reason to carry?
BBM
Florida is a "shall issue" state. The only reason you need to get a concealed weapon permit is a desire to legally carry a gun for self defense.
(g) Desires a legal means to carry a concealed weapon or firearm for lawful self-defense;

The statue explains all of the restrictions and what is required to obtain a CCW permit.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.06.html

Sensei
03-20-2012, 07:00 PM
I believe it was the person Martin was on the phone with that stated Martin went under a porch, pulled up his hoodie, and returned to the street. I will search for the link.

Watching Brian Williams right now on NBC it sounded like he said the conversation between Martin and his gf was recorded. Any one else hear that?

If true, that will help figure out exactly what happened.

If the conversation was recorded that would in fact be great, but I think that what is recorded is the attorney's interview with the girl.

What I find a bit interesting is the way that it is transcribed as they play it near the end when she says that while he was trying to get away and thought he had, all of a sudden TM is cornered and confronted by GZ, who says What are you doing around here, and in some transcriptions they transcribe a line about "My Dad.....and then she hears what she thinks is someone shove Trayvon and the line goes dead and the phone shuts off, and according to the actual time of the phone call and the 911 calls it seems as if the shot is seconds after that. I would love to actually see the call logs for both 911 and TM's phone to see if that matches if so, it appears that GZ did NOT give anyone time to even answer him before he shot.

Further, someone on the panel mentioned that when his body was found the pack of skittles and the iced tea was in the pocket of his hoodie...if this is in fact so, then WHAT could GZ possible say that he say in TM's hands that would have put him in fear of his life?

Just questions and MHO

Talina
03-20-2012, 07:00 PM
I've been jumping from thread to thread today, but I always end up here.

I've just watched Vinnie Politan on HLN go through the case, and even with former Florida Judge, Judge Alex, the situation with the Stand Your Ground Law is still very confusing to me. It sounds like a license to murder to me.

I hope that the recent disclosure of the girlfriend's being on the phone with Trayvon helps clear up the timeline and what actually happened.

I do have one question. When we hear that the case has been turned over to the State's Attorney's office, does this mean that the it will not be the local prosecutors who will present the case to the Grand Jury in April?

Earlier on, possibly on the previous thread, a number of people didn't understand why the case wouldn't go to the Grand Jury until April 10. IMHO, I'm pleased that it will not be rushed. I want the FDLE and FBI to have time to enhance all the audio in this case so every word possible is transcribed. I want to be sure the racial epithet is clear as a bell. I want the Grand Jury to have so much information that they can't help but indict GZ.

In Florida, the county prosecutors are referred to as State Attorneys, rather than District Attorneys as we see in many other states.

So each county has their own State Attorney that handles prosecutions.

IMO

Ada
03-20-2012, 07:00 PM
First I want to reply to a post from the first thread. I'm too tired to go back and look for it, though. It had to do with wondering why Trayvon's father called the police to see if he'd been arrested, when he didn't come home.

Of course his father checked to see if he was arrested. I think it's difficult for a lot of white folks to understand the reality of young black males. It became clear to me, while I was still a school girl, many years ago.

As a white girl from the 'right side of the tracks' growing up in the South, I never, ever worried that my actions might cause me to get into legal trouble. Never. And I was right. I was free to go about my day, doing pretty much what I damned well pleased, anywhere I wanted to do it.

In junior high school and high school, my best friend was a black kid that I was in school with. We hung out, went to movies, went to parties, etc. He was also from the right side of the tracks, but, that made no difference. He had to be cautious in everything he did. There was always the very real fear that he would get arrested for minor kid stuff, or assaulted for simply being with me.

He finally brought me to understand why his mother was so upset about our friendship. At first, I thought she was racist. In fact, she was terrified that her very nice, respectful, straight laced, straight A student, son would be arrested or harmed by hanging out with 'that white girl' in the 'white places.'

This is the reality. Yes, thank goodness, it is changing, but, it is not changed. I think it was a very natural and sensible call for his father to make.

ETA: Secondly, I want to reply to the comments about Trayvon ducking onto someone's porch to get out of the rain. This is a neighborhood of condos, right? In my experience, condos don't tend to have a lot of distance between the sidewalk and the porch/door. My mom lives in a condo and I can move from the sidewalk to the shelter of her front porch in a couple sideways steps. It's not like Trayvon had to travel down a driveway to get onto a porch. Step to the side, slip on the hood, decide to make his way home. IMO. (if we are not talking about condos, let me know. It's been hard to keep up :p )

Paulette
03-20-2012, 07:00 PM
It won't be a jury. Because of "stand your ground" law this will go to a judge.

The DOJ and FBI have stepped in to investigate the shooting as a possible hate crime. If they come up with proof, it will automatically move to federal court.

How many white boys have walked down the street without GZ confronting them and how often did GZ bring his gun while confronting them.

The feds will look into every corner of GZ's life.

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 07:13 PM
18,667 more signatures added to Trayvon's petition. Now up to 660,559!!

Keep em coming!!

http://www.change.org/petitions/prosecute-the-killer-of-our-son-17-year-old-trayvon-martin

annalia
03-20-2012, 07:13 PM
Whoa, Zimmerman's neighbor on JVM isn't doing GZ any favors!

First he says don't make this about race but then keeps saying that the majority of the 8 breakins in 15 months were done by black kids.

JMHO

Salem
03-20-2012, 07:15 PM
WFTV uncovered it? :floorlaugh:

P.S. I am not laughing about the slur. I'm laughing because WFTV is late. We knew last night.

In my opinion, it is good to havee WFTV there, even if they are late. They will follow the story and keep it up front until it is resolved (or at least I hope they do).

Salem

What'sThatClue
03-20-2012, 07:18 PM
As far as I know, the only carry permit you can get in Florida is a concealed carry permit. Some states, Virginia, for example, you do not need a permit to open (in plain view) carry, but you do need a permit to carry concealed.

Also, as far as I know carry/ concealed carry permits are only valid in the state they are issued. Maybe someone more famiolar with gun laws will know if states have carry/concealed carry reciprocity laws.

Also, anyone know what the process in Florida is to get a permit such as Zimmerman has (assuming he still has it)? Does one need a valid reason to carry?

Good explanation here:

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html

CarolinaMoon
03-20-2012, 07:28 PM
Whoa, Zimmerman's neighbor on JVM isn't doing GZ any favors!

First he says don't make this about race but then keeps saying that the majority of the 8 breakins in 15 months were done by black kids.

JMHO

Hmmm... I just went back and listened to that portion. The neighbor states that all Trayvon had to say was that he was there visiting his mother.

Based on what little I've heard about the GF's report... Trayvon did mention HIS DAD! I'm betting Travon said he was visiting his dad. Didn't help him any, now did it?

Sensei
03-20-2012, 07:31 PM
Hmmm... I just went back and listened to that portion. The neighbor states that all Trayvon had to say was that he was there visiting his mother.

Based on what little I've heard about the GF's report... Trayvon did mention HIS DAD! I'm betting Travon said he was visiting his dad. Didn't help him any, now did it?

I am truly trying to parse out some kind of a timeline which adds in the times of the Girlfriend on the phone, and the times of the 911 calls, and the time that the 911 caller heard the shot, and honestly I must be doing something wrong because there is no time for an answer or a scuffle before the shot....

Anyone who has done this and can help me out here? maybe I copied some times down wrong.

uvamerica
03-20-2012, 07:33 PM
I wish I could find the media outlet that postd all of the phone calls made during this incident unedited. During one of the calls, not sure if it was the first one, Zimmerman gave his phone number (it was not edited out) and addresses. The dispatcher wanted Zimmerman to meet law enforcement by some mailboxes. At first Zimmerman said okay, but then changed his mind and said just have the officer call me when he arrives and I will meet him, to me meaning that he wasn't going to wait by the mailboxes as requested and was going to follow Treyvon.

Saw this 911 call Youtube, I believe it is the one you are referring too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL72w4xiTVU&feature=youtu.be

waltzingmatilda
03-20-2012, 07:37 PM
I just checked my FB page as I posted a link to the petition this am. One of my friends commented on my page that GZ worked for him for 3 years and was a nice guy, would help anybody out, not a racist, keep an open mind, yadda yadda.

I wasn't sure how to respond. How should one respond when someone defends a murderer?

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 07:40 PM
I just checked my FB page as I posted a link to the petition this am. One of my friends commented on my page that GZ worked for him for 3 years and was a nice guy, would help anybody out, not a racist, keep an open mind, yadda yadda.

I wasn't sure how to respond. How should one respond when someone defends a murderer?

Don't respond! Ask questions!! Ask him where he worked? Ask him if he knew Zimmerman outside of work? Ask him what he knows about his famlily? Be a websleuth!!

HiHater
03-20-2012, 07:48 PM
Zimmerman called police at 7:09 according to JVM...hth with someone's timeline...

LambChop
03-20-2012, 07:52 PM
I just checked my FB page as I posted a link to the petition this am. One of my friends commented on my page that GZ worked for him for 3 years and was a nice guy, would help anybody out, not a racist, keep an open mind, yadda yadda.

I wasn't sure how to respond. How should one respond when someone defends a murderer?

It sounds like an innocent child is dead because a "nice guy" just did not follow the directions of LE. jmo

raeann
03-20-2012, 07:53 PM
Could someone repost the map link....I can't seem to find it anywhere


THANKS!

waltzingmatilda
03-20-2012, 07:54 PM
Don't respond! Ask questions!! Ask him where he worked? Ask him if he knew Zimmerman outside of work? Ask him what he knows about his famlily? Be a websleuth!!

LULZ Lola!

I made a polite response but got no response back. I'll see if I can get a conversation started but it may be tomorrow. I've gotta cook dinner and spray some febreeze around before Mr.wm gets home and hogs the computer. :D

wm

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 07:54 PM
I don't know who is watching, but this Rally for Trayvon is really touching! It's not angry, but passionate! It's not hateful, but kind! They have the same questions we all have and want the same thing we all want!

I am very happy that so many of the speakers have said that they have encountered so many people, of so many races, standing by their side!

raeann
03-20-2012, 07:58 PM
Photo of home designs....Re: "porches"

http://www.407re.com/RetreatatTwinLakes

The backs of these have overhanging balconies which look like a more likely place to dodge the rain for a second.....can't find a good picture of these yet....

Also a great tour of the whole neighborhood here.....hard for anyone who "patrolled" to not know what street they would be on...

For Rent: 1110 Long Oak Way Retreat at Twin Lakes - YouTube

ynotdivein
03-20-2012, 08:00 PM
Could someone repost the map link....I can't seem to find it anywhere


THANKS!

Here you go, Rae...

http://media.trb.com/media/graphic/2012-03/68790513.jpg
Source: Orlando Sentinel
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-gfx-trayvon-martin-sanford-shooting-20120313,0,5710580.graphic


Link to Google map of area (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Oregon+Ave+at+Rinehart+Rd.+Orlando+FL&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=MjZmT_H5IMXZ0QGp3KmcAQ&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=3&ved=0CAwQ_AUoAg)

waltzingmatilda
03-20-2012, 08:00 PM
It sounds like an innocent child is dead because a "nice guy" just did not follow the directions of LE. jmo

My response was similar to yours Lambchop.

raeann
03-20-2012, 08:10 PM
Here you go, Rae...

http://media.trb.com/media/graphic/2012-03/68790513.jpg
Source: Orlando Sentinel
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-gfx-trayvon-martin-sanford-shooting-20120313,0,5710580.graphic


Link to Google map of area (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Oregon+Ave+at+Rinehart+Rd.+Orlando+FL&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=MjZmT_H5IMXZ0QGp3KmcAQ&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=3&ved=0CAwQ_AUoAg)



Thanks! if you compare this to the You Tube I posted above, I THINK it is possible to almost exactly see where the shooting happened....if my perceptions are correct.

Ada
03-20-2012, 08:13 PM
He was so close to being home.

raeann
03-20-2012, 08:17 PM
He was so close to being home.

Yes...if the map is correct for its red dots....the house in the video appears to connect by back yards to the one Trayvon was trying to get home to.....it appears that he had gotten onto the walkway that does go between the condos through the back yard areas and was just a few houses down from being home.

chefmom
03-20-2012, 08:23 PM
I just checked my FB page as I posted a link to the petition this am. One of my friends commented on my page that GZ worked for him for 3 years and was a nice guy, would help anybody out, not a racist, keep an open mind, yadda yadda.

I wasn't sure how to respond. How should one respond when someone defends a murderer?

I would simply thank them for their input. I am sure there are always people who say good and some who say bad. Don't let it shake you.

HiHater
03-20-2012, 08:29 PM
The live vigil is VERY interesting to me...

big thanks to whoever posted the link!!!

ETA: They are calling for Police Chief Bill Lee to be fired by 26 March, or they will refuse all police services...

ynotdivein
03-20-2012, 08:32 PM
Thanks for that video, Raeann. It brings home just how small this neighborhood is... I wish they'd gone past the clubhouse and taken Twin Trees around the lake to get to Long Oak instead. From GZ's "non-emergency" call, he seems to have left his truck somewhere near the mailboxes that are on the east side of the clubhouse, then tracked Tray up the section of Twin Trees where it runs east-west to dogleg around the lake. (If you zoom in on the Google map you can see the mailbox shed on the east side of the clubhouse.)

csziggy
03-20-2012, 08:33 PM
ITA Daisy - but if you listen on the 911 call, GZ clearly states the name of a street - early on, in the beginning. He knew the street names - you bet on that. No way am I going to believe he got out of his truck to see the street sign.

JMHO

GZ had to know the street names - there are THREE street names in that development - Twin Trees Lane, Retreat View Circle, and Long Oak Way!

The initial police call was to 1231 Twin Trees Lane - according to Google Maps that address is pretty much in the center of one of the units that have 5 townhomes per unit. Trayvon was behind that townhome.

On the Google map aerial view you can see a sidewalk running between the backyards of the townhomes. I would bet Trayvon, worried about being followed by GZ in the SUV, took the sidewalk between the townhomes to get away from the nut in the SUV.

I can't find the map from the Orlando Sentinel of the locations where Trayvon's father was staying and where the body was found, but my memory is that if Trayvon had continued down that sidewalk, he would have come out nearly across the street from where his father was staying. If I were being followed by some weirdo in a vehicle, I would have taken that sidewalk - even if the nut saw me when I reached the road, it would be a really short distance to safety.

Does anyone know where GZ's SUV was parked at the point when LE arrived? That would be important to know. If GZ had driven to the other end of that block, then gotten out to track Trayvon on foot, he would have been close to that "back entrance" he seemed to be fixated on in his other 911 calls.

Adrienne37
03-20-2012, 08:33 PM
I don't know who is watching, but this Rally for Trayvon is really touching! It's not angry, but passionate! It's not hateful, but kind! They have the same questions we all have and want the same thing we all want!

I am very happy that so many of the speakers have said that they have encountered so many people, of so many races, standing by their side!

I agree Lola. The citizens of Sanford are not going to stop until Chief Lee is fired. I'm afraid this case has opened up a whole can of worms.

chefmom
03-20-2012, 08:35 PM
I have posted in the Lawyers thread on the KC forum asking for help on explaining the Stand Your Ground law. Mr. Hornsby was visiting, so maybe we will get lucky and he will come give us a good explanation of it. Being from Orlando, he would be the perfect one to explain it. I would like to hear from a local attorney how they think it will fit with this situation.

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 08:36 PM
I agree Lola. The citizens of Sanford are not going to stop until Chief Lee is fired. I'm afraid this case has opened up a whole can of worms.

They are asking the residents to call the Seminole County Sheriff's Office and not the Sanford Police for any of their needs. When they call 911, the need to request to have the call put through to the Seminole County Sheriff's Office and not Sanford Police. They want to boycott the entire Sanford Police Department... not LE as a whole!

Bill Lee should have resigned weeks ago any way!

203_forensics
03-20-2012, 08:36 PM
It sounds like from the sanford PD been doing a lot of things towards the citizens

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 08:39 PM
It sounds like from the sanford PD been doing a lot of things towards the citizens

That's what's interesting to me! The residents coming forward with their stories. We all knew it was a problem when they didn't arrest the Sanford Police officers kid for punching the black homeless man unconcious.

Sad!

ynotdivein
03-20-2012, 08:40 PM
Copying/pasting my transcription of GZ's call from Thread #1 (post 535).

Bumping transcription of GZ call. Link below will take you to this call.

Please note--in re-listening, I realized I missed the first seconds of GZ's call where he does mention the break-ins in the neighborhood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ynotdivein View Post
GZ 911 call transcript part one. By yours truly, and my aged ears and I welcome and embrace all edits, corrections & improvements.

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/geor...-police/vGZq9/

GZ: This guy looks like he's up to no good, or on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around looking about."

D: This guy, is he white black or hispanic?

GZ: He looks black.

D: Did you see what he was wearing?

GZ: Yeah dark hoodie like a grey hoodie and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's (unclear) just staring. (crosstalk) at all the houses. And now he's just staring at me.

D: 1111 or one-eleven?

GZ: That's the clubhouse (crosstalk)

D: He's near the clubhouse right now?

GZ: Yeah now he's coming towards me

D: OK

GZ: He's got his hand in his waistband. Yeah he's a black male

D: OK How old would you say he looks?

GZ: He's (unclear) late teens...

D: Late teens, ok

GZ: Mm-hm. Something's wrong with him. Yup. He's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I dunno what his deal is.

D: OK, just lemme know if he does anything else (Crosstalk) we got someone on the way, just let me know if he does anything else (crosstalk) yeah, we got 'em on the way just let me know if he does anything else.

GZ (1:38): OK. (pause) Gah, these a**holes, they always get away. (unclear background noise) When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in, and make a left. Actually, you go past the clubhouse.

D: OK, so it's on the left-hand side from the clubhouse?

GZ: No you go in (sigh) straight through the entrance, and then you make a left, uh yeah, don't turn and make a left, **** he's runnin'

D: He's running? Which way is he running?

GZ (2:10, sound of door opening/exiting car/seatbelt beeper going off?): Uh, down toward the uh other entrance to the neighborhood.

D: OK. Which entrance is that, that he's heading towards?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ynotdivein View Post
GZ 911 call transcript part two.

D: OK, which entrance is that, that he's heading towards?

GZ: The back entrance. (wind interference? begins to sound as if GZ is out of his vehicle IMO)

D: Are you following him?

GZ: Yep.

D (immediate on heels of "yep"): OK, we don't need you to do that.

GZ: OK

(wind)

D: Alright sir, what is your name?

GZ: George. (pause) (unclear--"he ran"?)

D: And George, what is your last name?

GZ: Zimmerman.

D: And George, what's the phone number you're calling from?

GZ: (gives phone number)

D: Alright George, we do have 'em on the way, do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?

GZ: Yeah.

D: Alright, where are you gonna meet with them at?

GZ: If they... come in through the uh gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and uh... straight past the clubhouse and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, they'll see my truck...

(crosstalk)

D: OK, what address are you parked in front of?

GZ: Um, I don't know... it's a cut-through so I don't know the address.

D: OK, do you live in the area?

GZ: Yeah, yeah.

D: What's your apartment number?

GZ: It's a home, it's (gives number of address) oh cr@p I don't wanna give it all out (unclear)

D: Ok do you wanna just meet with them right by the mailboxes then?

GZ: Yeah, that's fine.

D: Alright George I'll let them know they're meeting with you out there then.

GZ: Could you have them, could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at?

D: OK. Yeah, that's no problem.

GZ: You need my number or you got it?

D: Yeah I got it (repeats number).

GZ: Yeah you got it.

D: OK no problem. I'll let 'em know to call you when they're in the area.

GZ: Thanks.

D: You're welcome.

[recording ends]

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/geor...-police/vGZq9/

LolaMoon08
03-20-2012, 08:41 PM
I don't believe there is a State Law that says a child cannot walk into the store and pay for gas... I believe it is a State Law that they cannot PUMP the gas!

chefmom
03-20-2012, 08:43 PM
He was so close to being home.

Yes. So sad! Just a few more minutes and he would have been back with his little brother watching tv. Heartbreaking!!!

HiHater
03-20-2012, 08:46 PM
I don't believe there is a State Law that says a child cannot walk into the store and pay for gas... I believe it is a State Law that they cannot PUMP the gas!

Yeah that didn't sound right to me either. And if the store clerk touched the child, she should have been arrested.

raeann
03-20-2012, 08:46 PM
Thanks for that video, Raeann. It brings home just how small this neighborhood is... I wish they'd gone past the clubhouse and taken Twin Trees around the lake to get to Long Oak instead. From GZ's "non-emergency" call, he seems to have left his truck somewhere near the mailboxes that are on the east side of the clubhouse, then tracked Tray up the section of Twin Trees where it runs east-west to dogleg around the lake. (If you zoom in on the Google map you can see the mailbox shed on the east side of the clubhouse.)

Yes.....I was surprised to see that the BACK yard walkways are actually somewhat more of a direct route....going in front of the houses basically means walking right along the street.

HiHater
03-20-2012, 08:47 PM
The last speaker, the white guy, makes it seem like it's more than just a racial problem. Maybe there are class/status issues with the SPD as well.

Reader
03-20-2012, 08:47 PM
WOW, I'm soooo glad the grand jury, FDLE, FBI and Justice Dept. will be involved in the case now! We should finally find out what really happened and get justice for poor Trayvon and his family. And the girlfriend's call with TM, bet that has GZ shaking in his shoes! Watch for his story to change again....Some quotes from link below:

"She absolutely blows Zimmerman's absurd self-defense claim out of the water," Crump said of Martin's girlfriend, whose name was withheld.

Residents attending the town hall meeting cheered and jumped to their feet when local NAACP leader Turner Clayton Jr. suggested that the U.S. Department of Justice shouldn't just review the investigation but it should take over the Sanford Police Department.

The last call was at 7:12 p.m. Police arrived at 7:17 p.m. to find Martin lying face down on the ground.

Zimmerman was handcuffed after police arrived and taken into custody for questioning, but was released by police without being charged. Police have interviewed Zimmerman two times since then.


http://www.centurylink.net/news/read.php?rip_id=%3CD9TKEC281%40news.ap.org%3E&ps=1011&page=1