PDA

View Full Version : FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #3



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6

Salem
03-22-2012, 12:31 AM
Please continue here.

Please remember the rules. Please post links where applicable. Also, please be careful with the discussion regarding potential drug use and or racist comments. We don't want to start rumors. The potential drug use has been raised in MSM, but it was the personal opinion of someone that just listened to the 911 tapes, so let's not carry it too far - it is discussable, but keep it in context please.

If you have questions or concerns, please PM a mod and they will give you a hand.

Thanks,

Salem

Thread 1 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165269&page=42)

Thread 2


Media Thread



And please heed Ynot's warning:


Everyone, please. Calm down.

If posters can't discuss this case in a calm, reasoned, rational manner, then we will lock this thread to give everyone some time to get their wits about them.

Use your IMO/JMOs. Don't get dragged into a personal back-and-forth with someone who may not share your opinions. Don't get personal, and don't take it personal.

If a post fires you up, you don't need to respond to it. You have the choice to move on past it, or to alert responsibly if it violates TOS.

Where this post lands is random. The consequences for your posting decisions are not random; they will be based on your choices and WS rules.

MicciStella
03-22-2012, 12:35 AM
Thanks Salem...

I just can't wait to see and feel justice here....

And thanks for reminding everyone to keep respect for each other ....

Micci

Adrienne37
03-22-2012, 01:05 AM
Off to bed for the night but will be praying very hard that when I wake up in the morning I will see George Zimmerman in jail where he belongs and Police Chief Lee without a job.

God bless Trayvon's family, give them strength to make it through and see this to the end. While nothing will ever bring Trayvon back, I hope they are proud knowing that Trayvon's death is not in vain and that he has and will continue to make a difference.

MicciStella
03-22-2012, 01:42 AM
Just found this....
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-21/news/os-trayvon-martin-sanford-commission-20120321_1_chief-bill-lee-patty-mahany-commissioners-randy-jones

"I take no pleasure in a public flogging of our police chief," McCarty said before a packed council chambers. "But he really should turn in his resignation."

I just hope he does...

Good night everyone

Micci

Soulmagent
03-22-2012, 01:58 AM
I kinda expected to see a ton of post on this thread.

Why did this guy think he could shoot anyone...even if they were stealing..

Reader
03-22-2012, 02:13 AM
Was Fla. shooter a vigilante or good neighbor?

http://www.centurylink.net/news/read.php?id=18870433&ps=1011&srce=news_class&action=6&lang=en&_LT=UNLC_USNWU00L6_UNEWS&page=1



Zimmerman moved with his parents from Manassas, Va., to Florida about a decade ago. He lived with his parents in nearby Lake Mary for several years before moving to the Retreat at Twin Lakes, records show. He lives in the gated community with his wife, Shellie, a licensed cosmetologist, but is now in hiding because of death threats.

Zimmerman had taken classes at the local community college, but his work history was spotty. He worked at a pressure washing business and then at CarMax, the national used-car dealer, but left in 2008, according to court records. It was not immediately clear what he did for CarMax or what he has been doing since then.

rotterdam
03-22-2012, 05:05 AM
Was Fla. shooter a vigilante or good neighbor?

http://www.centurylink.net/news/read.php?id=18870433&ps=1011&srce=news_class&action=6&lang=en&_LT=UNLC_USNWU00L6_UNEWS&page=1

He sounds like a zealous busybody with too much time on his hands. Probably knew all the cops in his area. But for some reason could not become one.
It looks like the "investigation" was just as extensive as the average fender bender since many witnesses were never ever contacted. And GZ explanation was accepted at face value. Wonder if the investigators hailed from Pinellas County. So many holes in GZ's story. Tray did not even have a knife. No weapon whatsoever except his fists.
And as a 17 year old black teenager, he was probably scared being followed by a big white dude. Would not be the first time that a black kid is targeted for some heinous torture/killing by some white supremacist(s).
I do hope they will get to the bottom of this. And if it peters out in Sanford with the Grand Jury thing, hopefully the Feds will take over.
It is very sad and frightening that a person without a badge can now make up their own justice , execute somebody and get away with it.

Sensei
03-22-2012, 06:03 AM
For me the bottom line is this, while I understand the SYG law, and I understand that GZ did not have a duty to attempt to flee if he was being threatened, SYG does NOT and never did mean that you can chase someone down, get in their grill, question them in a threatening manner, and when they react in a normal way by trying to defend themselves, you can then claim self defense....IMO that is just a corruption of law and Justice.

rotterdam
03-22-2012, 06:16 AM
For me the bottom line is this, while I understand the SYG law, and I understand that GZ did not have a duty to attempt to flee if he was being threatened, SYG does NOT and never did mean that you can chase someone down, get in their grill, question them in a threatening manner, and when they react in a normal way by trying to defend themselves, you can then claim self defense....IMO that is just a corruption of law and Justice.

I do not understand why they have that law. Self defense was always valid argument and defense before this law. The whole SYG law sounds like a bad American Cowboy moment. Being attacked in your house is one thing but this SYG is like a license to kill for non LE people. Judge, jury and executioner all rolled into one. What is wrong with running away as a viable option? Or avoid confrontation..

waltzingmatilda
03-22-2012, 06:50 AM
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/21/10799176-trayvon-martin-supporters-urged-to-send-skittles-to-police-chief

Trayvon Martin supporters urged to send Skittles to police chief

BTW, Tray's petition is up to 985,000 signatures.

http://www.change.org/petitions/prosecute-the-killer-of-our-son-17-year-old-trayvon-martin?utm_campaign=rjisaZqTpX&utm_medium=email&utm_source=action_alert

Belinda
03-22-2012, 07:36 AM
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/21/10799176-trayvon-martin-supporters-urged-to-send-skittles-to-police-chief

Trayvon Martin supporters urged to send Skittles to police chief

BTW, Tray's petition is up to 985,000 signatures.

http://www.change.org/petitions/prosecute-the-killer-of-our-son-17-year-old-trayvon-martin?utm_campaign=rjisaZqTpX&utm_medium=email&utm_source=action_alert

Most excellent on both counts.

Rob774
03-22-2012, 07:45 AM
I kinda expected to see a ton of post on this thread.

Why did this guy think he could shoot anyone...even if they were stealing..

Back up a page and scroll up and down, you'll notice this is the "3rd" thread about this subject, the first 2 had to be closed because they went on too long. We are coming up on about 2000 responses to this topic, welcome to the party!!!

I posted last night, just before the end of #2 got closed, you guys have to watch Anderson Coooper. Listen to the interview with the two witnesses at thet scene who found GZ "strandling" Trayvon. Listen to the 911 call that was enhanced by CNN, and its clear as day what GZ says, regarding Trayvon. You cant' say what he said, stalk an innocent person, pinn that person to the ground, and then yell "self defense."

CarolinaMoon
03-22-2012, 07:52 AM
Just finished watching video of the vigils held last night. I'm so proud that they were peaceful and there were no confrontations. The SYG laws frighten me, especially the one in Florida which extends the right to SYG outside of protecting one's home.

I am also pleased with the no-confidence vote in Sanford.

Finally, I'm pleased that Mr. & Mrs. GZ are in hiding, in fear for their lives as it is so ironic. They are getting a taste of what GZ has done to others. I still remember the interview with the neighbor who said he didn't feel safe walking in his own neighborhood due to GZ.

However, I am being very patient, waiting for a PROPER investigation and presentation to a Grand Jury to wrap it up with a bow. I don't want this new investigation to be as slipshod as Lee's.

If the Florida law stands up and he is not presented to a jury, I know the Feds will pick it up from there. Under Federal Laws, one can't deprive a fellow human being of his/her human rights.

Prayers for Trayvon, his family and friends, and for true justice.

Lovejac
03-22-2012, 08:22 AM
Just finished watching video of the vigils held last night. I'm so proud that they were peaceful and there were no confrontations. The SYG laws frighten me, especially the one in Florida which extends the right to SYG outside of protecting one's home.

I am also pleased with the no-confidence vote in Sanford.

Finally, I'm pleased that Mr. & Mrs. GZ are in hiding, in fear for their lives as it is so ironic. They are getting a taste of what GZ has done to others. I still remember the interview with the neighbor who said he didn't feel safe walking in his own neighborhood due to GZ.

However, I am being very patient, waiting for a PROPER investigation and presentation to a Grand Jury to wrap it up with a bow. I don't want this new investigation to be as slipshod as Lee's.

If the Florida law stands up and he is not presented to a jury, I know the Feds will pick it up from there. Under Federal Laws, one can't deprive a fellow human being of his/her human rights.

Prayers for Trayvon, his family and friends, and for true justice.

Beautifully stated! If Trayvon's family can remain peaceful and patient as they await justice, the least i can do is follow their example.

God Bless the family and friends of Trayvon.

Rob774
03-22-2012, 08:24 AM
I know this was also discussed yesterday, but i didn't see it myself until Anderson Cooper last night. This "friend" of Zimmerman, who calls himself defending him. Frank Taafe, says "This is a perfect storm, a neighborhood that has crimes down by blacks..." So IMO, that translates into.. Zimmerman had a green light to stop anyone of darker epidermal hue, who he deemed ... suspciious.

Also i know this was brought up earlier on this board as well. I have to think about if Zimmerman was drinking. Why? Does a sane or sober person have the presence of mind to say what said on a 911??? I mean, he studies law, he knows that stuff is recorded, so why would he say that?

Belinda
03-22-2012, 08:26 AM
I think it has now been made crystal clear just how incompetent Sanford PD is. Either that or they are in collusion with GZ. So glad to see the no confidence in Lee. I certainly wouldn't want him in my town.

Fluttershy
03-22-2012, 08:52 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/22/trayvon-martin-demonstrators-march-new-york


On Wednesday night, demonstrators chanted "We want arrests!" during the Million Hoodie March in Union Square in Manhattan.

Trayvon's mother, Sybrina Fulton, told the crowd: "My heart is in pain, but to see the support of all of you really makes a difference."

The case has sparked anger against the police department of the Orlando suburb of 53,500 people, prompting rallies and a protest in Governor Rick Scott's office on Tuesday. The Justice Department's Civil Rights Division said it was sending its community relations service to Sanford this week to "address tension in the community".

waltzingmatilda
03-22-2012, 09:05 AM
http://www.andersoncooper.com/

passionflower
03-22-2012, 09:09 AM
Trayvon Martin was murdered plain and simple to me!
Zimmerman had NO RIGHT to even have a gun pointed at a young person.
NO RIGHT at all. MOO

Fluttershy
03-22-2012, 09:12 AM
Some pictures from the march in New York

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2012/mar/22/trayvon-martin-new-york-us?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/3/22/1332414783934/Boys-hold-images-of-slain-016.jpg

Adrienne37
03-22-2012, 09:22 AM
NAACP reacts to Fla. teen's slaying..



http://www.mycentraljersey.com/article/20120321/NJNEWS/303210067/NAACP-reacts-to-Florida-teen-s-slaying

waltzingmatilda
03-22-2012, 09:22 AM
I am watching Anderson cooper right now and am in tears. Trayvon's mom says that she can hear her baby screaming for help in her head over and over. She keeps going back and forth in refererring to him in past and present tense.

Mary Cutcher is on right now...says it sounded like a young kid whining....GZ was staddling TM and had his hands on t's back......says there is no difference in what she told police then and now....police have tried to discredit her .Sabrina is now thanking MC for coming forward.

This is hard to watch but informative.

MOO wm

ScubaTwinn
03-22-2012, 09:23 AM
The Rev. Al Sharpton, slated to be in Sanford this evening at a rally for slain teenager Trayvon Martin, tweeted this morning that his mother died but he will make the Central Florida appearance.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-22/news/os-trayvon-martin-al-sharpton-mom-dies-20120322_1_national-action-network-ada-sharpton-al-sharpton

Adrienne37
03-22-2012, 09:25 AM
I can't help but wonder how Zimmerman must feel knowing that he is a pariah in not only his town or state but the entire country? I hope he never has another moment of peace in his life. I hope that Trayvon's murder haunts him forever. Lock him up now!

Adrienne37
03-22-2012, 09:30 AM
I am watching Anderson cooper right now and am in tears. Trayvon's mom says that she can hear her baby screaming for help in her head over and over. She keeps going back and forth in refererring to him in past and present tense.

Mary Cutcher is on right now...says it sounded like a young kid whining....GZ was staddling TM and had his hands on t's back......says there is no difference in what she told police then and now....police have tried to discredit her .Sabrina is now thanking MC for coming forward.

This is hard to watch but informative.

MOO wm

I can't even imagine how she feels. I can't get his screams out of my head either and I wish that I hadn't listened to the 911 calls. Just imagine how scared he was, knowing how close he was to where his daddy was and how he couldn't make it to him. I hope Zimmerman burns in hell for what he has done.

LambChop
03-22-2012, 09:49 AM
I think the first thing all police departments should be doing is to forbid carrying a gun during a Neighborhood Watch Program. This is suppose to be a watch and report security system not an armed guard program. If that were the case they'd be in uniform, in a marked vehicle and wearing an ID that clearly identifies them as security. There was no way GZ can claim he was on his own property, part of the security system or had any responsibility whatsoever to track down TM. He wasn't even authorized to question why TM was there, that was the job of the police. GZ had no authority whatsoever. Right now he'd probably be safer in jail until this is sorted out. jmo

lillygator
03-22-2012, 09:57 AM
question - did Trey and his parents live within this same gated community? the store he went to was outside of the gated community correct?

rotterdam
03-22-2012, 10:03 AM
question - did Trey and his parents live within this same gated community? the store he went to was outside of the gated community correct?

His dad's fiancee's home where Tray was staying as a guest(with his dad and younger brother) , is in the gated community.

Talina
03-22-2012, 10:03 AM
question - did Trey and his parents live within this same gated community? the store he went to was outside of the gated community correct?

Tray's father's fiance lives in the gated community. They were there visiting when this happened.
Yes, he went outside the gated community, walked to 7-11 and was back headed to dad's fiance's townhome when this happened.

Anadarko
03-22-2012, 10:10 AM
I've read many posts and articles referring to past scrapes with the law that GZ has had. What I can't recall is, was he ever convicted of anything? Any incidents that would show up on a criminal background check?

TIA

jjenny
03-22-2012, 10:10 AM
I think the first thing all police departments should be doing is to forbid carrying a gun during a Neighborhood Watch Program. This is suppose to be a watch and report security system not an armed guard program. If that were the case they'd be in uniform, in a marked vehicle and wearing an ID that clearly identifies them as security. There was no way GZ can claim he was on his own property, part of the security system or had any responsibility whatsoever to track down TM. He wasn't even authorized to question why TM was there, that was the job of the police. GZ had no authority whatsoever. Right now he'd probably be safer in jail until this is sorted out. jmo

He didn't carry the gun as a part of neighborhood watch. He has a concealed weapon license. It's also pretty clear to me that he knows full well its not his responsibility to track anyone down.

lillygator
03-22-2012, 10:10 AM
so did Mr. Z just patrol the streets at night? how would he even know this boy was out there walking to the store and back? I wonder how often Trey came over to this house and did he stay overnight.....

Adrienne37
03-22-2012, 10:11 AM
He didn't carry the gun as a part of neighborhood watch. He has a concealed weapon license. It's also pretty clear he knows full well its not his responsibility to track anyone down.

If that's the case, then why did he do it that particular night?

songline
03-22-2012, 10:12 AM
His family seems to be soft spoken and classy.
It would be hard to buy that Trayvon Martin was anything less than they are.

There is never a reason a young men should be suspected, followed,
and killed in this country.
We are still in the land of the free. NOBODY should be perused, unless it is clear that
they committed a crime.

A sad case indeed. :(:(:(

That poor little girl - this little girl must have been freaked out when she heard the shot.
Poor little thing had to be hospitalized.

Who acts like a self appointed watch commander.?
His neighbors say he is a great caring man with fed up issues, because,
the gated community has had a number of robberies, by black men.
The neighbor said Zimmerman would never hurt anyone, and the
gated community was interracial.
So WHY A GUN on A KID??? Has Zimmerman lost it?
He was told by the Police dispatcher " LET IT GO"

rotterdam
03-22-2012, 10:17 AM
I've read many posts and articles referring to past scrapes with the law that GZ has had. What I can't recall is, was he ever convicted of anything? Any incidents that would show up on a criminal background check?

TIA

I only read about arrests but no convictions.

jjenny
03-22-2012, 10:20 AM
If that's the case, then why did he do it that particular night?

I think its pretty clear on 911 call he was concerned that a "suspicious" person was going to get away.

essies
03-22-2012, 10:23 AM
NAACP's Ben Jealous: Justice for Trayvon Martin Begins With Killer's Arrest, Police Chief's Ouster - YouTube

Wise Old Owl
03-22-2012, 10:25 AM
What I just don't get is why GZ has not been charged with ANYTHING! If LE would just lock his sorry butt up it would quickly ease the tension and help to calm things a little. After all we know about what happened surely there is something they could charge him with - even if its just discharging a weapon within city limits.

Glad for the vote of no confidence on the police chief last night - a step in the right direction.

Let's hope level heads and peaceful protests continue.....an arrest would certainly help.


JMHO

SuziQ
03-22-2012, 10:26 AM
I've read many posts and articles referring to past scrapes with the law that GZ has had. What I can't recall is, was he ever convicted of anything? Any incidents that would show up on a criminal background check?

TIA

He went into one diversion type program. I can't recall in relation to what crime though.

tlcya
03-22-2012, 10:26 AM
The law states that a person "who is attacked" anywhere he is lawfully present has "no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm."

Importantly, a person cannot invoke this provision if he is "engaged in unlawful activity" or "initially provokes the use of force against himself." Finally, in Florida, once self-defense becomes an issue at trial, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense -- a heavy burden.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/21/opinion/bellin-stand-your-ground-law/index.html?hpt=ju_c1

See that PD? AT TRIAL. It was not for you to decide whether GZ's defense had merit.

annalia
03-22-2012, 10:30 AM
He didn't carry the gun as a part of neighborhood watch. He has a concealed weapon license. It's also pretty clear to me that he knows full well its not his responsibility to track anyone down.

How do we know that he didn't carry it as part of his neighborhood watch? Just because he had a license for a concealed weapon doesn't mean that the gun wasn't part of his NW. he had it that night when he went gunning for Tray, are we to buy that this was the only time he carried his weapon?
Do we know when he got his gun license?

jjenny
03-22-2012, 10:31 AM
The law states that a person "who is attacked" anywhere he is lawfully present has "no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm."

Importantly, a person cannot invoke this provision if he is "engaged in unlawful activity" or "initially provokes the use of force against himself." Finally, in Florida, once self-defense becomes an issue at trial, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense -- a heavy burden.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/21/opinion/bellin-stand-your-ground-law/index.html?hpt=ju_c1

See that PD? AT TRIAL. It was not for you to decide whether GZ's defense had merit.

A trial doesn't happen every time somebody is suspected of something, as people who post here full well know. Unless prosecutor feels he or she has enough evidence it's not even ethical to take a case to trial.

LambChop
03-22-2012, 10:32 AM
I only read about arrests but no convictions.

GZ had to undergo a program after his arrest, plea deal IMO. Isn't it ironic how GZ was given a break for committing a crime but he felt justified killing a person because he felt they may have committed a crime with no proof. GZ shoved/resisted a police officer and yet the officer never shot him. Why, because the police officer would have been the one to go to jail. jmo

Wise Old Owl
03-22-2012, 10:32 AM
Exactly tl - this whole thing stinks. What went on that night when LE showed up? Its a given that the responding officers didn't call up the statute on their laptops and debate on whether or not it applies to the current situation. So, what was said? To who, by who?

And for Trayvon to go unidentified for 12 hours? Man.............the detective that responded (was there even one?) certainly didn't do his/her job.

Still want to know where Trayvon's phone is - physcially. Who has it?


JMHO

Marshmallow
03-22-2012, 10:33 AM
my question may seem silly but it keeps popping up in my head: was Mr Zimmerman a member of a real registered neighborhood watch program? if so,why was he alone? don't neighborhood watch members operate in teams? I know they do here.

jjenny
03-22-2012, 10:34 AM
GZ had to undergo a program after his arrest, plea deal IMO. Isn't it ironic how GZ was given a break for committing a crime but he felt justified killing a person because he felt they may have committed a crime with no proof. GZ shoved/resisted a police officer and yet the officer never shot him. Why, because the police officer would have been the one to go to jail. jmo

There are lots of cases in which police officers have shot people, claimed self-defense and didn't go to any jail.

annalia
03-22-2012, 10:35 AM
The law states that a person "who is attacked" anywhere he is lawfully present has "no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm."

Importantly, a person cannot invoke this provision if he is "engaged in unlawful activity" or "initially provokes the use of force against himself." Finally, in Florida, once self-defense becomes an issue at trial, the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self-defense -- a heavy burden.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/21/opinion/bellin-stand-your-ground-law/index.html?hpt=ju_c1

See that PD? AT TRIAL. It was not for you to decide whether GZ's defense had merit.

Exactly! It wasn't up to police on the scene to conclude that it was self defense and send the suspect on his merry way.

jjenny
03-22-2012, 10:36 AM
my question may seem silly but it keeps popping up in my head: was Mr Zimmerman a member of a real registered neighborhood watch program? if so,why was he alone? don't neighborhood watch members operate in teams? I know they do here.

I believe it was reported this program was not officially registered.

songline
03-22-2012, 10:38 AM
my question may seem silly but it keeps popping up in my head: was Mr Zimmerman a member of a real registered neighborhood watch program? if so,why was he alone? don't neighborhood watch members operate in teams? I know they do here.

SELF APPOINTED. :what:

songline
03-22-2012, 10:42 AM
Florida police did not notify the boys parents.
Poor child lay in a morgue for 2 days. :what:
they took no steps to check his cell phone and try to identify him?
I think I smell a fish.
IMHO
The police tried to cover their own steps, before they let the Martins know. :(
This is so wrong.....
They DNA and drug test a kid. But never test the shooter? :what:
They tell the shooter to not pursue the kid, but don’t question him after? :what:

This is insane.

LambChop
03-22-2012, 10:42 AM
I would think "stand your ground" is one thing and "chase and persue" is another. They are distinctively different. jmo

jjenny
03-22-2012, 10:43 AM
Not two days. The next morning his father called 911.

annalia
03-22-2012, 10:47 AM
I'm kicking myself for not bookmarking this but I read yesterday ( can't remember where, it may have been here), that the officer in charge with Trayvon was the same officer who was in charge when the black homeless man was murdered by the son of a police lieutenant, and then too no arrest was made ( even though they had a video of it) until it became public.

Have others heard this?

annalia
03-22-2012, 10:48 AM
I would think "stand your ground" is one thing and "chase and persue" is another. They are distinctively different. jmo

It seems to be that many experts are saying this same thing.

JMHO

waltzingmatilda
03-22-2012, 10:53 AM
I can't even imagine how she feels. I can't get his screams out of my head either and I wish that I hadn't listened to the 911 calls. Just imagine how scared he was, knowing how close he was to where his daddy was and how he couldn't make it to him. I hope Zimmerman burns in hell for what he has done.

I can't get the sound of Tray's screams out of my mind either, Adrienne. Ms. Fulton said that a mother knows the sound of her child's voice and I agree. By the end of the segment on AC Mrs Fulton was so choked up she couldn't speak and I was crying right along with her.

IMO, GZ is a child killer because Trayvon was a minor when he was murdered and I hope gz is haunted by Trayvon's cries for help ever after.

If GZ is such a stand up guy, alter boy,etc. then why hasn't he released a statement thru his atty? I realize he prolly wouldn't offer apologies due to his self defense claim, but he could offer condolences to Tray's family, he could offer regret that he left his vehicle to pursue Tray, he could offer regret that the incident escalated to the point of gun violence....something...

But what is he doing? He is hiding out. His father is speaking out regarding what a fine citizen he raised and a handful of aquaintances singing praises to his character.

One's public/business/familly persona can be radically different from who the person is in private. (I know this from personal experience)

Moo and all that jazz....wm

LambChop
03-22-2012, 10:56 AM
There are lots of cases in which police officers have shot people, claimed self-defense and didn't go to any jail.

Not when there were eye witness accounts and the evidence proved otherwise. GZ was not LE and as a participant of the NWP he knew the rules and did not follow them and look at the results. Is he claiming to be a Watch Captain? The rules are very specific for that type of program and if he signed up to be an active member he knew the rules but yet disregarded them. GZ could have been shot himself by police. He totally disgregarded the safety of all persons involved just because he thought someone looked suspicious.

Police are not permitted to use deadly force on a non violent crime such as thief or breakins. Someone steals a purse police do not shoot the person as they are running away. If police were to get away doing this it's not a town you want to live in. jmo

Wise Old Owl
03-22-2012, 10:57 AM
I'm kicking myself for not bookmarking this but I read yesterday ( can't remember where, it may have been here), that the officer in charge with Trayvon was the same officer who was in charge when the black homeless man was murdered by the son of a police lieutenant, and then too no arrest was made ( even though they had a video of it) until it became public.

Have others heard this?
First I've heard of this but it doesn't surprise me - being Sanford PD and all. The critical info is just exactly what went on at the scene. With such a tight timeline, Trayvon was shot 7:15-7:16 and LE arrived on scene at 7:17. Who saw what? Who was where and exactly what position was Trayvon AND GZ in? GZ could not have just been this calm "I shot this kid" level headed person (if he was - that's a red flag, or should have been right there).

So who said what? What was discussed. How many officers ended up responding? What did each one of them see, hear, say and do? I just can't imagine any officer responding to a shooting and letting the guy with the gun walk away. If the gun was visible in GZ's hand - then that officer should have gotten out of his car with his drawn! GZ should have been ordered, at gunpoint, to drop the weapon and then been immediately cuffed and removed to a backseat. Did ANY of that happen?

I just do not understand why GZ is walking free.


JMHO

LambChop
03-22-2012, 11:02 AM
First I've heard of this but it doesn't surprise me - being Sanford PD and all. The critical info is just exactly what went on at the scene. With such a tight timeline, Trayvon was shot 7:15-7:16 and LE arrived on scene at 7:17. Who saw what? Who was where and exactly what position was Trayvon AND GZ in? GZ could not have just been this calm "I shot this kid" level headed person (if he was - that's a red flag, or should have been right there).

So who said what? What was discussed. How many officers ended up responding? What did each one of them see, hear, say and do? I just can't imagine any officer responding to a shooting and letting the guy with the gun walk away. If the gun was visible in GZ's hand - then that officer should have gotten out of his car with his drawn! GZ should have been ordered, at gunpoint, to drop the weapon and then been immediately cuffed and removed to a backseat. Did ANY of that happen?

I just do not understand why GZ is walking free.


JMHO

Don't all LE vehicles have cameras in them now????

annalia
03-22-2012, 11:10 AM
I found this one.

Wow, I wonder if this is also the same officer that tried to change the witness statement about hearing Tray being the one that was calling for help.

Trayvon Martin case: Anthony Raimondo, first officer in charge of scene, involved in previous cover-up



Sergeant Anthony Raimondo, the patrol sergeant who was initially in charge of the scene on the night Trayvon Martin was killed, was also involved in a police cover-up in 2010. Raimondo was at the center of a controversy that ensued when Justin Collison, the son of a Sanford police lieutenant and part of a prominent family, punched a homeless black man but was not arrested.


Anthony Raimondo was the patrol sergeant in charge on the night Collison, who is white, was first detained. Raimondo made the decision not to press charges against Collison, which a former Sanford elected official told theGrio was at the behest of his superiors.

Full report; http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/trayvon-martin-case-anthony-raimondo-first-officer-in-charge-of-scene-involved-in-previous-cover-up.php

SuziQ
03-22-2012, 11:13 AM
I'm kicking myself for not bookmarking this but I read yesterday ( can't remember where, it may have been here), that the officer in charge with Trayvon was the same officer who was in charge when the black homeless man was murdered by the son of a police lieutenant, and then too no arrest was made ( even though they had a video of it) until it became public.

Have others heard this?

I remember this.

Wise Old Owl
03-22-2012, 11:14 AM
Don't all LE vehicles have cameras in them now????
YES!! Dash cams - I forgot about that. Dunno if Sanford is that up to speed, technology-wise but one would think they are.

And now Annalia's last post about the first responding officer's past performance.

There is just too much out there now for them to NOT arrest GZ for something. Other charges can always be added later.


JMHO

tlcya
03-22-2012, 11:15 AM
A trial doesn't happen every time somebody is suspected of something, as people who post here full well know. Unless prosecutor feels he or she has enough evidence it's not even ethical to take a case to trial.

I realize you are simply attempting to assert a bit of balance to the thread and play devil's advocate but the point I was making is that it IS a prosecutor's decision. Not that of the investigating officers. THAT is my problem with this case. The responding officers determined that because GZ said he was defending himself that the stand your ground law applied to him. Then the department stated they "could not" arrest GZ because he had used that defense when people protested. My problem and my point is - This is untrue. They can take him into custody, have him arraigned, where he can then make this claim to a judge who will then rule if this specific law applies and whether he should be held over for trial.

Again. I get what you are doing and am not trying to be argumentative, but my issue is with LEOs in the field interpreting the law. It should not be happening. Their role is enforcement. Further, IF the PD in that area truly thinks they are not allowed to take anyone into custody who asserts self defense, that is a big problem IMO MOO and all that jazz.

Dr.Fessel
03-22-2012, 11:27 AM
I found this one.

Wow, I wonder if this is also the same officer that tried to change the witness statement about hearing Tray being the one that was calling for help.

Trayvon Martin case: Anthony Raimondo, first officer in charge of scene, involved in previous cover-up






Full report; http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/trayvon-martin-case-anthony-raimondo-first-officer-in-charge-of-scene-involved-in-previous-cover-up.php

One thing about this officer, he doesn't care what evidence is out there when he makes up his mind what happened. He knew someone was videoing this crime and he still tried to cover it up.

Cops Son Caught On Camera Punching Homeless Man - YouTube

Talina
03-22-2012, 11:29 AM
How do we know that he didn't carry it as part of his neighborhood watch? Just because he had a license for a concealed weapon doesn't mean that the gun wasn't part of his NW. he had it that night when he went gunning for Tray, are we to buy that this was the only time he carried his weapon?
Do we know when he got his gun license?

I'd sure like to know what date he became involved in the neighborhood watch program and when he got his license. I wonder if they are within a close time frame of one another.

songline
03-22-2012, 11:30 AM
IMHO if Zimmerman thought he had legitimate reason to follow the kid.
He could have put a shot into the ground to scare the kid.
But you don’t put a shot into a kid, regardless of your issues.

I don’t know if he had fed up issues.
I don’t know if he had fear of strangers.
NOR DO I CARE.
Seems to me he himself had a problem with the law in the past.
But th kid got checked. :(

Talina
03-22-2012, 11:31 AM
my question may seem silly but it keeps popping up in my head: was Mr Zimmerman a member of a real registered neighborhood watch program? if so,why was he alone? don't neighborhood watch members operate in teams? I know they do here.

No.

IMO

Talina
03-22-2012, 11:32 AM
I'm kicking myself for not bookmarking this but I read yesterday ( can't remember where, it may have been here), that the officer in charge with Trayvon was the same officer who was in charge when the black homeless man was murdered by the son of a police lieutenant, and then too no arrest was made ( even though they had a video of it) until it became public.

Have others heard this?

Yes. I've seen that reported in several news articles.

Adrienne37
03-22-2012, 11:37 AM
One thing about this officer, he doesn't care what evidence is out there when he makes up his mind what happened. He knew someone was videoing this crime and he still tried to cover it up.

Cops Son Caught On Camera Punching Homeless Man - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHGEam82GME)

Good grief. This police officer needs to lose his job as well. Unbelievable.

daisy7
03-22-2012, 11:37 AM
Sharpton's Rally Moved Due To Expected Turnout
Protesters Will Meet Thursday At Fort Mellon Park

SANFORD, Fla. -- After an overwhelming response from the public, according to Reverend Al Sharpton, a Thursday night rally for Trayvon Martin will be moved to Fort Mellon Park in Sanford.

Sharpton Speaks Exclusively To WESH

Sharpton said he will lead a protest with Trayvon Martin's parents, Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin at 4:30 p.m. at 600 East 1st Street, instead instead of the First Shiloh Baptist Church on South Elm Avenue.

Read more: http://www.wesh.com/news/30738473/detail.html#ixzz1prPIso1J

tlcya
03-22-2012, 11:41 AM
I will be focusing positive thought towards Sanford FL today. I am not a fan of Mr. Sharpton and hope that his visit will unite and not divide as I feel he is sometimes more focused on.

Talina
03-22-2012, 11:46 AM
I will be focusing positive thought towards Sanford FL today. I am not a fan of Mr. Sharpton and hope that his visit will unite and not divide as I feel he is sometimes more focused on.

Ditto. I wish he'd stay home.

IMO, he likes to stir the crowd and racial tension up for nothing more than publicity and then he just moves on. He doesn't always seem to be too concerned with facts before he spouts off either.

There's positive movement right now, it seems to me and it is being demanded by all races, not just African Americans. I'd like to see it stay that way and I fear it won't if Al Sharpton gets too involved.

Adrienne37
03-22-2012, 11:46 AM
Parents of Slain Fla. Teen to Meet with Feds

SANFORD, Fla. (AP) - The parents of a black teen fatally shot by a neighborhood watch captain will meet with U.S. Justice Department officials hours before a rally expected to draw thousands of protesters.



http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpps/news/trayvon-martin-slain-florida-teen-dpgapx-20120322-fc_18744859

essies
03-22-2012, 11:47 AM
Author of "stand your ground" law:
George Zimmerman should probably be arrested for killing Trayvon Martin

t is the fact that Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator's advice not to follow Martin that former Sen. Peaden says disqualifies him from claiming self-defense under the law.

"The guy lost his defense right then," Peaden told the Miami Herald. "When he said 'I'm following him,' he lost his defense."

Rep. Dennis Baxley, Peaden's co-sponsor in the Florida House, agrees with his former colleague, telling the newspaper that the law does not license neighborhood watch or others who feel "like they have the authority to pursue and confront people. That is aggravating an incident right there."

Both co-sponsors told the newspaper, however, that they did not think the law needed to be re-examined.

"If you want to pass something, pass something that limits their ability to pursue and confront people," Baxley said. "It's about crime watch," he said. "What are the limitations of crime watch? Are you allowed to jump out and follow people and confront them? What do you think is going to happen? That's where it starts."
video at link-
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57401619-504083/author-of-stand-your-ground-law-george-zimmerman-should-probably-be-arrested-for-killing-trayvon-martin/

LambChop
03-22-2012, 11:51 AM
I think the real problem for GZ are those 46 (??) complaint calls to LE since January. He was a cronic complainer. No one makes that many calls unless they are a cronic complainer. The end result is GZ decided to take the law into his own hands as his neighbor describes him as being "fed up". GZ is his own worst enemy and a communities nightmare. jmo

HMSHood
03-22-2012, 11:55 AM
I can't help but wonder how Zimmerman must feel knowing that he is a pariah in not only his town or state but the entire country? I hope he never has another moment of peace in his life. I hope that Trayvon's murder haunts him forever. Lock him up now!

George Zimmerman joins an infamous fraternity, which is rather elite for the wrong reasons. I seem to notice them more often likely due to the media. I can see him relating with other most hated figures like Casey Anthony, Jerry Sandusky, Lori Drew, Fred Phelps, and Osama bin Laden. What is wrong with all of them? :crazy:

essies
03-22-2012, 11:56 AM
I think the real problem for GZ are those 46 (??) complaint calls to LE since January. He was a cronic complainer. No one makes that many calls unless they are a cronic complainer. The end result is GZ decided to take the law into his own hands as his neighbor describes him as being "fed up". GZ is his own worst enemy and a communities nightmare. jmo

ITA
I wonder if we will get to hear those 46 or how ever many calls under the Fla. Sunshine Law?:waitasec:
It would be interesting to hear who or what else he was reporting!:moo:

HMSHood
03-22-2012, 11:58 AM
I will be focusing positive thought towards Sanford FL today. I am not a fan of Mr. Sharpton and hope that his visit will unite and not divide as I feel he is sometimes more focused on.

I don't want Al Sharpton involved period.

rossva
03-22-2012, 11:59 AM
Regardless of who was the first officer on the scene, Martin is still dead.




I found this one.

Wow, I wonder if this is also the same officer that tried to change the witness statement about hearing Tray being the one that was calling for help.

Trayvon Martin case: Anthony Raimondo, first officer in charge of scene, involved in previous cover-up






Full report; http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/trayvon-martin-case-anthony-raimondo-first-officer-in-charge-of-scene-involved-in-previous-cover-up.php

Wise Old Owl
03-22-2012, 12:00 PM
I don't want Al Sharpton involved period.
Not only is he involved but from that rally the other night we now know that the Black Panthers are there as well. That is a precarious combination, to say the least.


JMHO

annalia
03-22-2012, 12:03 PM
Regardless of who was the first officer on the scene, Martin is still dead.

What?

Yes, an innocent Trayvon is dead and there's an obvious major problem with the investigation so it's extremely relevant.

I was going to explain the relevance but it should be obvious.

JMHO

Wise Old Owl
03-22-2012, 12:06 PM
Sanford PD police report:


http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

Velouria
03-22-2012, 12:10 PM
What?

Yes, an innocent Trayvon is dead and there's an obvious major problem with the investigation so it's extremely relevant.

I was going to explain the relevance but it should be obvious.

JMHO


Of course it's obvious, that is unless one is trying to make an inappropriate comparison to last night's questions regarding Trayvon's father and what time he went looking for his son.

athy
03-22-2012, 12:11 PM
i'm with those that don't want Sharpton involved. right at this time things are so heated its a bomb ready to explode. it wouldn't take much. i was thinking earlier this morning how proud i was of everyone so far. this could have so easily turned into a race war but at least at this point it seems to be bringing many of the races together in wanting justice for Trayvon. it would not take much for that to change though and as has been already mentioned...Sharpton seems good at turning things into division instead.

Adrienne37
03-22-2012, 12:12 PM
Sanford PD police report:


http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

Thanks Wise Old Owl, I had remembered reading about Zimmerman's gun being in the holster but couldn't recall where I had read it. I wonder how many other times on all those 911 calls when he was out patrolling did he have his gun and holster on? This guy was a ticking bomb just waiting to explode. If it hadn't been Trayvon, it would have been someone else. I've said it a million times but I'll say it once more - arrest him and get him off the streets!!

Wise Old Owl
03-22-2012, 12:15 PM
Interesting

It is classified as "Homicide-Negligent Manslaughter - Unnecessary killing to prevent an unlawful act"

GZ was held at gunpoint and cuffed. Major cases was called in.

I don't get it. EVERYTHING in this report screams that charges should have been made.

Who are all the witnesses? As these the residents that called 911? I thought no one was around are actually saw the shooting.

Also, all the officers state they saw Trayvon laying on the ground but didn't immediately check on him at all. Why is that?

annalia
03-22-2012, 12:19 PM
Of course it's obvious, that is unless you're trying to make an inappropriate comparison to last night's questions regarding Trayvon's father and what time he went looking for his son.

LOL, I had a response posted to this thinking I was being accused of being inappropriate. I deleted it but just wanted to apologize in case it was read before I deleted it.

I need more coffee.

Anadarko
03-22-2012, 12:21 PM
Not only is he involved but from that rally the other night we now know that the Black Panthers are there as well. That is a precarious combination, to say the least.


JMHO

Sounds like a recipe for disaster. IMO

This tragedy is now being investigated, and is definitely getting out to the public, who are responding peacefully. That will most likely change after AS gets things stirred up. It's happened too many times in the past. The Crown Heights Riots, and Freddie's Fashion Mart come to mind.

Mr. Sharpton, please stay away from Sanford.

CarolinaMoon
03-22-2012, 12:21 PM
Don't all LE vehicles have cameras in them now????

Don't know if this has been answered yet, but the murder took place between two rows of condos, behind them. There is no road there, so I would assume there would be no video of the scene.

What bothers me is that Trayvon was found laying on his stomach with his hands beneath them. If he had been shot while laying on top of GZ and GZ stood up, he would have been laying on his back. How did he get into this position? Was he shot in the back while trying to escape and fell forward?

If GZ had shot Trayvon while being on top of him and GZ slithered out from under him, that position could be feasible.

It's been a month. Where is the autopsy report in the state of Sunshine Laws? Which side had the entrance wound?

Velouria
03-22-2012, 12:23 PM
LOL, I had a response posted to this thinking I was being accused of being inappropriate. I deleted it but just wanted to apologize in case it was read before I deleted it.

I need more coffee.


Not you of course!
:coffee: and I'll even throw in a :cupcake: ;)

Wise Old Owl
03-22-2012, 12:24 PM
Wonder where Jesse Jackson is? I would rather see him come down here than Sharpton.



JMHO

Salem
03-22-2012, 12:24 PM
Sanford PD police report:


http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf


If there was an altercation, and Zimmerman was on the ground, Tray on top of him, WHY was Tray found lying on his stomach with his hands underneath him? How does that make sense?

To be face down, Zimmerman would have had to have fired from a standing position, far enough back for Tray to fall forward.....

Anyone have any other explanation for how Tray might have ended up, face down with his hands underneath him?

Salem

Wise Old Owl
03-22-2012, 12:26 PM
If there was an altercation, and Zimmerman was on the ground, Tray on top of him, WHY was Tray found lying on his stomach with his hands underneath him? How does that make sense?

To be face down, Zimmerman would have had to have fired from a standing position, far enough back for Tray to fall forward.....

Anyone have any other explanation for how Tray might have ended up, face down with his hands underneath him?

Salem
I do I do I do (waves hand in air)

It is so obvious to me that GZ patted Trayvon down after he shot him before LE got there. I truly believe that GZ rolled Trayvon over while he was firsking him.

Really really really want to know who physically took Trayvon's phone that night, what they did with it and where it is now.


JMHO

TracyLynnS
03-22-2012, 12:27 PM
Why does that police report (post 81) include the weight of every single witness, and the victim, but no weight is recorded for the subject?

Salem
03-22-2012, 12:27 PM
Don't know if this has been answered yet, but the murder took place between two rows of condos, behind them. There is no road there, so I would assume there would be no video of the scene.

What bothers me is that Trayvon was found laying on his stomach with his hands beneath them. If he had been shot while laying on top of GZ and GZ stood up, he would have been laying on his back. How did he get into this position? Was he shot in the back while trying to escape and fell forward?

If GZ had shot Trayvon while being on top of him and GZ slithered out from under him, that position could be feasible.

It's been a month. Where is the autopsy report in the state of Sunshine Laws? Which side had the entrance wound?

I just saw this and I agree. It makes no sense. If you were 'traumatized' and laying under a person you just shot, wouldn't you use your arm to push them off of you? So Tray would have ended up either face up or on his side? The hands underneath him is really troubling, to me? I don't know.

Where is that autopsy?????

Salem

LambChop
03-22-2012, 12:28 PM
Thanks Wise Old Owl, I had remembered reading about Zimmerman's gun being in the holster but couldn't recall where I had read it. I wonder how many other times on all those 911 calls when he was out patrolling did he have his gun and holster on? This guy was a ticking bomb just waiting to explode. If it hadn't been Trayvon, it would have been someone else. I've said it a million times but I'll say it once more - arrest him and get him off the streets!!

I believe LE reported his gun was in a holster that was in his waistband of his pants. My husband had a small hand gun with a holster that had a clip on it so the holster could have been clipped to an ordinary belt or stuck in your pants. If he had to carry it, it was always clipped to his belt. It does not appear from the report that GZ had a holster that he carried the gun as a sidearm. jmo

CarolinaMoon
03-22-2012, 12:29 PM
Not only is he involved but from that rally the other night we now know that the Black Panthers are there as well. That is a precarious combination, to say the least.


JMHO

From all of the comments by Trayvon's parents, it is clear to me they want a peaceful but forceful resolution. I hope that Sharpton will respect their wishes. Millions are behind the family and they are of all colors, races, and creeds. There is no reason to divide those of us who are being supportive.

I'll be watching coverage of this with eyes wide open and ears tuned in to what he has to say.

RANCH
03-22-2012, 12:31 PM
Here is a letter from the city manager of Sanford with some questions answered by Chief Lee. Very interesting.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/86330859/Zimmerman-Martin-Shooting

daisy7
03-22-2012, 12:32 PM
If there was an altercation, and Zimmerman was on the ground, Tray on top of him, WHY was Tray found lying on his stomach with his hands underneath him? How does that make sense?

To be face down, Zimmerman would have had to have fired from a standing position, far enough back for Tray to fall forward.....

Anyone have any other explanation for how Tray might have ended up, face down with his hands underneath him?

Salem

It doesn't make sense one bit. When are we gonna see the autopsy report?!

Rob774
03-22-2012, 12:33 PM
Author of "stand your ground" law:
George Zimmerman should probably be arrested for killing Trayvon Martin

t is the fact that Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator's advice not to follow Martin that former Sen. Peaden says disqualifies him from claiming self-defense under the law.

"The guy lost his defense right then," Peaden told the Miami Herald. "When he said 'I'm following him,' he lost his defense."

Rep. Dennis Baxley, Peaden's co-sponsor in the Florida House, agrees with his former colleague, telling the newspaper that the law does not license neighborhood watch or others who feel "like they have the authority to pursue and confront people. That is aggravating an incident right there."

Both co-sponsors told the newspaper, however, that they did not think the law needed to be re-examined.

"If you want to pass something, pass something that limits their ability to pursue and confront people," Baxley said. "It's about crime watch," he said. "What are the limitations of crime watch? Are you allowed to jump out and follow people and confront them? What do you think is going to happen? That's where it starts."
video at link-
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57401619-504083/author-of-stand-your-ground-law-george-zimmerman-should-probably-be-arrested-for-killing-trayvon-martin/

*Translation*

We are distancing ourselves as far away as possible from this case. Martin isnt' the first person to die under shady circumstances, with the shooter using this as their defense.e

As for Sharpton, on thread #1 of this case, i felt as though it wasn't necessary to bring him in. Over the years, he's lost a bit of credibility outside the black community by leaping onto whatever case makes the headlines. So now people gives a "rolls eyes" notion when his name comes up. But for case, i can't see him doing any damage, because i think we are past the point of villianous speech. I've never seen Sharpton as really being devisive, just that he doesn't use enough tact in choosing his words. Even if you are telling it like it is, there's a way to do so, that doesn't upset people.

Salem
03-22-2012, 12:33 PM
I do I do I do (waves hand in air)

It is so obvious to me that GZ patted Trayvon down after he shot him before LE got there. I truly believe that GZ rolled Trayvon over while he was firsking him.

Really really really want to know who physically took Trayvon's phone that night, what they did with it and where it is now.


JMHO

Good thought! You think GZ somehow got out from under Tray and then rolled Tray onto his stomach while frisking him? Do I have that right? Interesting. I wonder if GZ is the one who took the phone and then gave it to LE?

This is like the Rebecca Zhou case - you look at all the physical evidence and it just doesn't match the story that is being told. :waitasec: It just doesn't match up......

And just another thought - I am mindboggled that Chief Lee got his job because the former Chief failed/refused to charge the officer's kid that beat up a homeless black man. You would have thought he would have had enough sense to listen to that 911 call and charge GZ appropriately.

Salem

belle3
03-22-2012, 12:34 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/sanford-city-manager-says-were-barred-arresting-trayvon-134007644.html
Sanford city manager says police were barred from arresting Trayvon Martin’s killer

tlcya
03-22-2012, 12:35 PM
Don't know if this has been answered yet, but the murder took place between two rows of condos, behind them. There is no road there, so I would assume there would be no video of the scene.

What bothers me is that Trayvon was found laying on his stomach with his hands beneath them. If he had been shot while laying on top of GZ and GZ stood up, he would have been laying on his back. How did he get into this position? Was he shot in the back while trying to escape and fell forward?

If GZ had shot Trayvon while being on top of him and GZ slithered out from under him, that position could be feasible.

It's been a month. Where is the autopsy report in the state of Sunshine Laws? Which side had the entrance wound?

I want to see the coroner's report and autopsy. The positioning of the body troubles me as well. We have witnesses saying GZ was straddling a prone Trayvon. Now we discover not only was Tray prone but face first.

I will not be shocked if it turns out this kid was shot in the back as he tried to escape the crazy stalker man.

belle3
03-22-2012, 12:35 PM
If there was an altercation, and Zimmerman was on the ground, Tray on top of him, WHY was Tray found lying on his stomach with his hands underneath him? How does that make sense?

To be face down, Zimmerman would have had to have fired from a standing position, far enough back for Tray to fall forward.....

Anyone have any other explanation for how Tray might have ended up, face down with his hands underneath him?

Salem

He was shot in the back as he was running away????

raeann
03-22-2012, 12:36 PM
Why does that police report (post 81) include the weight of every single witness, and the victim, but no weight is recorded for the subject?

AND....why did these reports which were written around 2-3 am have Trayvon's name, DOB, and height and weight on them but no one attempted to locate or notify his family at that time???? He must have had some kind of ID on him for them to get that information for the report!

HiHater
03-22-2012, 12:37 PM
If there was an altercation, and Zimmerman was on the ground, Tray on top of him, WHY was Tray found lying on his stomach with his hands underneath him? How does that make sense?

To be face down, Zimmerman would have had to have fired from a standing position, far enough back for Tray to fall forward.....

Anyone have any other explanation for how Tray might have ended up, face down with his hands underneath him?

Salem

IF, big IF, Trayvon did not die immediately, maybe he rolled over on his own to protect his chest?

That's what I hope, because every other thought process on this leads me to believe he was shot in the back.

Horace Finklestein
03-22-2012, 12:38 PM
If there was an altercation, and Zimmerman was on the ground, Tray on top of him, WHY was Tray found lying on his stomach with his hands underneath him? How does that make sense?

To be face down, Zimmerman would have had to have fired from a standing position, far enough back for Tray to fall forward.....

Anyone have any other explanation for how Tray might have ended up, face down with his hands underneath him?

Salem

If he didn't die instantly why couldn't it be that he stood up, staggered and fell face first? Or maybe GZ moved out from underneath him as Trayvon slumped forward (face first).

daisy7
03-22-2012, 12:38 PM
Here is a letter from the city manager of Sanford with some questions answered by Chief Lee. Very interesting.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/86330859/Zimmerman-Martin-Shooting

Clearly a CYA from the Police Chief. In no way, does FL law PROHIBIT (all caps from him) LE from arresting a person who claims self-defense. And that part about GZ "misconstrued" his criminal history indicates (to me) that they didn't run a background check on him that night. JMO.

Isabelle
03-22-2012, 12:39 PM
Here is a letter from the city manager of Sanford with some questions answered by Chief Lee. Very interesting.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/86330859/Zimmerman-Martin-Shooting

What a crock!

belle3
03-22-2012, 12:40 PM
Here is a letter from the city manager of Sanford with some questions answered by Chief Lee. Very interesting.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/86330859/Zimmerman-Martin-Shooting

Just read this. Very interesting indeed!

Salem
03-22-2012, 12:40 PM
Author of "stand your ground" law:
George Zimmerman should probably be arrested for killing Trayvon Martin

t is the fact that Zimmerman ignored the 911 operator's advice not to follow Martin that former Sen. Peaden says disqualifies him from claiming self-defense under the law.

"The guy lost his defense right then," Peaden told the Miami Herald. "When he said 'I'm following him,' he lost his defense."

Rep. Dennis Baxley, Peaden's co-sponsor in the Florida House, agrees with his former colleague, telling the newspaper that the law does not license neighborhood watch or others who feel "like they have the authority to pursue and confront people. That is aggravating an incident right there."

Both co-sponsors told the newspaper, however, that they did not think the law needed to be re-examined.

"If you want to pass something, pass something that limits their ability to pursue and confront people," Baxley said. "It's about crime watch," he said. "What are the limitations of crime watch? Are you allowed to jump out and follow people and confront them? What do you think is going to happen? That's where it starts."
video at link-
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57401619-504083/author-of-stand-your-ground-law-george-zimmerman-should-probably-be-arrested-for-killing-trayvon-martin/

I agree with this and I am glad to see the authors of the statute say this. There is nothing wrong with standing your ground and protecting yourself from the likes of people like GZ. Tray had a right to stand his ground. GZ had no right to shoot him. GZ had no right to "stand his ground" because he was NOT standing his ground, he was pursuing an individual because he didn't like the way the individual looked.

I still say that Sanford LE is using this law as an excuse for their failure to investigate and arrest GZ. And it is a very weak excuse.

Salem

annalia
03-22-2012, 12:41 PM
If Trayvon was on top of him, GZ would have been covered in Tray's blood, did police note if he was or not? Do they have his clothes?

Wise Old Owl
03-22-2012, 12:41 PM
Breaking news:

Carroll City High in Miami - students have walked out of school in protest of Trayvon

Watch livestream here:

http://www.local10.com/news/Watch-Live/-/1717324/4245012/-/8oprt4z/-/index.html

annalia
03-22-2012, 12:45 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/sanford-city-manager-says-were-barred-arresting-trayvon-134007644.html
Sanford city manager says police were barred from arresting Trayvon Martin’s killer

They are in major CYA mode.

And this;


Bonaparte writes that the official was merely telling the elder Martin how Zimmerman had portrayed himself. "We believe Mr. Martin may have misconstrued this information," he adds.


Uh, so what? That may be even worse, why would police even tell the victim's father that, to me it shows just how much they took his word for everything.

But yeah, let's say now that Tray's father misconstrued it all. Just like they needed to "correct" witnesses who heard Tray screaming. They obviously just took GZ's word for that one too.

JMHO

Velouria
03-22-2012, 12:47 PM
Here is a letter from the city manager of Sanford with some questions answered by Chief Lee. Very interesting.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/86330859/Zimmerman-Martin-Shooting

from the link:


Why was George Zimmerman labeled as “squeaky clean” when in fact he has a prior arrest history?
In one of the initial meetings with the father of the victim the investigator related to him the account that Mr. Zimmerman provided of the incident. At that time the investigator said that Mr.Zimmerman portrayed himself to be “squeaky clean”. We are aware of the background information regarding both individuals involved in this event. We believe Mr. Martin may have misconstrued this information.Well, I'll give Chief Lee points for consistency, alright. He never bypasses an opportunity to get in a dig at the victim(s). So, Mr. Martin misconstrued or misrepresented what the investigator said? Why would the investigator bother to share that information with Trayvon's father in the first place if he doubted Zimmerman's veracity? Just like the rest of the SPD's investigation, that doesn't pass the smell test, IMO.

"We are aware of the background information regarding both individuals involved in this event."

Well so are we, Chief Lee, and TM didn't have any sort of record. But nice try at implying there was something questionable there.

daisy7
03-22-2012, 12:51 PM
Breaking news:

Carroll City High in Miami - students have walked out of school in protest of Trayvon

Watch livestream here:

http://www.local10.com/news/Watch-Live/-/1717324/4245012/-/8oprt4z/-/index.html

He didn't even go to Carol City HS - he went to Krop. I sure hope the students AND LE keep level heads about this protest.

HiHater
03-22-2012, 12:53 PM
Breaking news:

Carroll City High in Miami - students have walked out of school in protest of Trayvon

Watch livestream here:

http://www.local10.com/news/Watch-Live/-/1717324/4245012/-/8oprt4z/-/index.html

I love the level of activism, especially in young people. I know education is important, but d*mn it, so is justice/equality!

Velouria
03-22-2012, 12:53 PM
Breaking news:

Carroll City High in Miami - students have walked out of school in protest of Trayvon

Watch livestream here:

http://www.local10.com/news/Watch-Live/-/1717324/4245012/-/8oprt4z/-/index.html

I support their cause wholeheartedly, however I'd be even more supportive if they marched on their own time, not during school hours.

Adrienne37
03-22-2012, 12:56 PM
I say more power to them. In fact, it would suit me to know that every single high school in our not so great state of Florida would get up and walk out in protest over this major injustice.

MicciStella
03-22-2012, 12:56 PM
http://www.andersoncooper.com/

I wish I could watch but I don't have cable.... Sigh...

But reading the answers of you dear fellow WS members, supporters and friends, make me think that it is more than clear that only arrests and proper investigation can solve the situation.... Even though proper investigation will be more than hard because of the incompetency so far and the loss of important evidence......

My prayers and hope for Trayvon and his family...

Micci

HiHater
03-22-2012, 12:56 PM
anyone know where the students are walking to?

TracyLynnS
03-22-2012, 12:57 PM
The chief is saying the police were prevented from arresting GZ due to Florida's Stand Your Ground Law. IMO, he is seriously misinterpreting the statute.

Florida Statute 776.032 section 2:

A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

BBM

The police arrived to find an unarmed juvenile laying on the ground just a few feet from home, dead of a gunshot wound.

To be covered by this law, the person using deadly force (GZ) has to believe he was in danger of great bodily harm or death.

There was nothing discovered at Trayvon's death scene, unless they're counting iced tea and a bag of skittles, to make GZ think he was in grave danger and there was definitely nothing found that should convince the (non)arresting officers this was a lawful use of force.

It just seems so obvious to me that even initially, this does not look like a lawful use of force. That should equal an arrest of the person who is unlawfully using deadly force, imo.

Wise Old Owl
03-22-2012, 12:57 PM
I have the local news on TV here - its unclear where they are going. Last I heard was Sun Life (Dolphin) Stadium. They just panned back and you can see they are getting close.

The principal has said he supported this walkout as long as it stays peaceful.

I sure hope this stays peaceful............................

tlcya
03-22-2012, 12:59 PM
"Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense, which at the time was supported by physical evidence and testimony," Sanford City Manager Norton Bonaparte Jr. wrote in a letter released publicly Wednesday evening. "By Florida Statute, law enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time."

BBM - THIS is my problem. THIS is not right. IF that is indeed how the statue reads, it is a HUGE problem IMO.

I also have a problem with the investigation onscene and the italicized portion quoted above. Correcting witness statements and refusing to take statements from alleged witnesses skews the "evidence at hand" when LE is making this determination (which I feel is way beyond the scope of their job). So if an officer decides he personally feels a certain way onscene and skews his investigation to match his "feel" OF COURSE the evidence at the time is going to back up his already made determination.

Rob774
03-22-2012, 01:02 PM
If there was an altercation, and Zimmerman was on the ground, Tray on top of him, WHY was Tray found lying on his stomach with his hands underneath him? How does that make sense?

To be face down, Zimmerman would have had to have fired from a standing position, far enough back for Tray to fall forward.....

Anyone have any other explanation for how Tray might have ended up, face down with his hands underneath him?

Salem

Even before witnesses came forth on Anderson Cooper, stating it was other way around, i've always found difficulty in this. I'm 12 years Zimmerman's senior, and 50 lbs less than him, a 140 lbs man, child, kangaroo, would last 2 seconds on top of me before i flung them off. Was Tray capable of knocking Zimmerman to the ground??? Ofcourse, any good shot to the jaw could do that, and he probably had a reach on him. But to be able to impose his will on a man that had 100 lbs of girth on him... not possible. If Zimmerman was 65... yeah, maybe, not 26.

Plus everything we are piecing together from the Zimmerman's 911 call, the testimoney from Tray's GF, the witnesses at the scene, make it seem like only 1 of them were the agressor here, and it was Tray.

Velouria
03-22-2012, 01:02 PM
I say more power to them. In fact, it would suit me to know that every single high school in our not so great state of Florida would get up and walk out in protest over this major injustice.

I hear ya, Adrienne. It's just that often when I've seen similar walkouts in my own city, they tend not to be taken as seriously by a lot of adults. Many write them off as kids just looking for an excuse to skip school, hence my earlier comment.

I have no doubt there is a lot of solidarity in Miami, and I'd march right along with them if I could!

Wise Old Owl
03-22-2012, 01:05 PM
Well it doesn't look like Sun Life now - they went in the opposite direction from where it was.

LambChop
03-22-2012, 01:06 PM
AND....why did these reports which were written around 2-3 am have Trayvon's name, DOB, and height and weight on them but no one attempted to locate or notify his family at that time???? He must have had some kind of ID on him for them to get that information for the report!

His phone.

Adrienne37
03-22-2012, 01:06 PM
I hear ya, Adrienne. It's just that often when I've seen similar walkouts in my own city, they tend not to be taken as seriously by a lot of adults. Many write them off as kids just looking for an excuse to skip school, hence my earlier comment.

I have no doubt there is a lot of solidarity in Miami, and I'd march right along with them if I could!

Oh I wholeheartedly agree Velouria but darn it does my heart good to see them standing together for Trayvon!

HiHater
03-22-2012, 01:09 PM
Well it doesn't look like Sun Life now - they went in the opposite direction from where it was.

I'm confused, and there's no audio...It looks like they are trying to stop traffic? They keep changing directions...:waitasec:

MicciStella
03-22-2012, 01:10 PM
I do I do I do (waves hand in air)

It is so obvious to me that GZ patted Trayvon down after he shot him before LE got there. I truly believe that GZ rolled Trayvon over while he was firsking him.

Really really really want to know who physically took Trayvon's phone that night, what they did with it and where it is now.


JMHO

I wonder if,
Since Trayvons family doesn't have the cell phone, which I believe,
The police claiming not to have it, which I don't really believe,
I wonder if, weird crazy idea, if GZ took it and still has it... I don't know how that would be possible, but whit all the incompetency, you never know....

Would be really interesting to watch the police car videos to see if GZ was even properly searched and how they handled the crime scene....

And yes my opinion only....

Micci

daisy7
03-22-2012, 01:10 PM
Look at all the police cars. I sure hope things stay peaceful.

HiHater
03-22-2012, 01:11 PM
I wonder if,
Since Trayvons family doesn't have the cell phone, which I believe,
The police claiming not to have it, which I don't really believe,
I wonder if, weird crazy idea, if GZ took it and still has it... I don't know how that would be possible, but whit all the incompetency, you never know....

Would be really interesting to watch the police car videos to see if GZ was even properly searched and how they handled the crime scene....

And yes my opinion only....

Micci

Tray's family has the phone, last I heard.

Adrienne37
03-22-2012, 01:12 PM
Look at all the police cars. I sure hope things stay peaceful.

So far so good I think. They don't appear to be causing any problems other than major traffic holdups.

Wise Old Owl
03-22-2012, 01:15 PM
Can't figure out what school they are at. Looks to be a private school. Copter tried to get the marquee but a tree was in the way.

Not good to be jumping fences .....................

LambChop
03-22-2012, 01:17 PM
So far so good I think. They don't appear to be causing any problems other than major traffic holdups.

That is good to hear. We certainly don't need another child hurt because of what has happened and the way it is being handled. jmo

Horace Finklestein
03-22-2012, 01:19 PM
Watching the live feed of the walkout. Don't see how this is relevant to Trayvon at all. Just a bunch of kids walking around and inconveniencing drivers. Symbolic gestures get symbolic results.

HiHater
03-22-2012, 01:19 PM
Can't figure out what school they are at. Looks to be a private school. Copter tried to get the marquee but a tree was in the way.

Not good to be jumping fences .....................

There was also an opening...not sure why some chose to jump...

Wise Old Owl
03-22-2012, 01:20 PM
Looks like they are going to try to contain them at this football field of this school. Wish I knew what school this is. It is NOT Carroll City HS - its too small.

HiHater
03-22-2012, 01:21 PM
Symbolic gestures of the Civil Rights era yielded very CONCRETE results...

Adrienne37
03-22-2012, 01:25 PM
Watching the live feed of the walkout. Don't see how this is relevant to Trayvon at all. Just a bunch of kids walking around and inconveniencing drivers. Symbolic gestures get symbolic results.

Just curious why you are continuing to watch the live feed if you are so against what these students are doing?

Wise Old Owl
03-22-2012, 01:26 PM
Anyone just catch that name on the marquee?

knicksgal1
03-22-2012, 01:27 PM
Trayvon and his family have been my last thought and prayer before I sleep for the last several nights and first thought and prayer after I wake for the last several mornings. What happened to Trayvon is a terrible, terrible sin and it has only been compounded by how LE handled it. I am glad that the DOJ and others are now involved. I heard Zimmerman's 911 calls and the others. Zimmerman went hunting that day. I heard him ignore the operator who told him not to follow Trayvon. I heard him say "these a%&holes always get away.." and run after him. I heard him say a terrible racial slur. He belongs behind bars.

I myself have a done a lot of thinking and I feel like we must as a country say enough! I can never know how it feels to be "suspicious" because of the color of my skin nor will I know the fear that my children could be harmed because of the color of theirs. However I can stand up heart to heart, shoulder to shoulder with those that do. I can speak out when I see racism and injustice.

In the past I have not been a fan of Reverand Sharpton but I have caught many of his appearances on MSNBC over the last year and I truly feel his heart is in the right place. Like all of us, he is not perfect and has made mistakes but if he can help this family in any way, he should.

It is my fervent prayer that the outrage and disgust that we all feel from this case not fade until that day that it is no longer needed. When you have a moment please go listen to 41 Shots (American Skin) by Bruce Springsteen on youtube. He says it so much more eloquently than I.

annalia
03-22-2012, 01:28 PM
As long as it stays peaceful, I say good for them.

I say good for our young kids to learn to stand up for what's right and wrong, to stand up for injustices, even if the only thing they can do is a small gesture to show support. The principal supported it as long as it stayed peaceful, there is a lesson there.

JMHO

HiHater
03-22-2012, 01:28 PM
Anyone just catch that name on the marquee?

Nope it's too blurry. They keep zooming in on it though...

Adrienne37
03-22-2012, 01:29 PM
Anyone just catch that name on the marquee?

The students marched peacefully through the streets of Miami Gardens, arriving at the Betty T. Ferguson recreational complex at Northwest 199th Street and 29th Court. Some teens held Skittles and iced tea, items Martin had bought at a convenience store shortly before he was shot, while others carried signs saying, "Justice for Trayvon."

http://www.local10.com/news/S-Fla-students-march-for-Trayvon/-/1717324/9670572/-/er5bg/-/index.html

Horace Finklestein
03-22-2012, 01:29 PM
Just curious why you are continuing to watch the live feed if you are so against what these students are doing?

I don't limit myself to only paying attention to things I support.

Lovejac
03-22-2012, 01:29 PM
Sanford PD police report:


http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

Why in the world was Trayvon on his stomach with his hands underneath him????

Was he shot in the back?

Did GZ roll him over to frisk him, hoping and praying that he would find a gun or some other weapon on him?

I am having a REALLY hard time finding out Trayvon was on his stomach.

tlcya
03-22-2012, 01:30 PM
"He was suspicious looking." "He seemed threatening." These are the codes assigned to African-American males, whether young or old, rich or poor, educated or uneducated, successful or not so successful. I thought that the enlightened, "post-racial" era would have dispensed with these views, but that is clearly not the case.

They have even been applied to the president of the United States. Remember his controversial tarmac meeting with Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer? She said that she "felt threatened" by President Barack Obama, even as the Secret Service and multiple cameras recorded her finger-wagging at him. Her simple allegation was sufficient justification for her aggressive and disrespectful action — with little, if any, repercussions against her. It harks back to a time when black men could be prosecuted for even daring to look at a white woman.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bs-ed-trayvon-20120322,0,1735054.story

Wise Old Owl
03-22-2012, 01:31 PM
Ok - its not a school its a recreational park

its the

Betty T Ferguson Recreational Complex

tlcya
03-22-2012, 01:31 PM
"We decided to do this earlier, around 11, because, you know, we want justice for Trayvon. We were in the cafeteria, and everybody was talking about walking out of school after first lunch," said one student.

The students marched peacefully through the streets of Miami Gardens, arriving at the Betty T. Ferguson recreational complex at Northwest 199th Street and 29th Court. Some teens held Skittles and iced tea, items Martin had bought at a convenience store shortly before he was shot, while others carried signs saying, "Justice for Trayvon."

http://www.local10.com/news/S-Fla-students-march-for-Trayvon/-/1717324/9670572/-/er5bg/-/index.html

tlcya
03-22-2012, 01:34 PM
The Florida law lets police on the scene decide whether they believe the self-defense claim. In many cases, the officers make an arrest and leave it to the courts to work out whether the deadly force is justified. In this case, however, police have said they are confident they did the right thing by not charging 28-year-old George Zimmerman.

http://www.local10.com/news/S-Fla-students-march-for-Trayvon/-/1717324/9670572/-/er5bg/-/index.html

tlcya
03-22-2012, 01:35 PM
Based on what's publicly known about the case, Michael Siegel, a former federal prosecutor who now directs the Criminal Justice Center and Clinics at the University of Florida law school, said it appears Sanford police were too quick to decide whether Zimmerman should be charged. If the evidence is murky, he said the usual practice is to make the arrest and let the court system sort it out.

http://www.local10.com/news/S-Fla-students-march-for-Trayvon/-/1717324/9670572/-/er5bg/-/index.html

Lovejac
03-22-2012, 01:37 PM
Watching the live feed of the walkout. Don't see how this is relevant to Trayvon at all. Just a bunch of kids walking around and inconveniencing drivers. Symbolic gestures get symbolic results.

I think its relevant because people from all different types of race, gender, age and walks of life are joining together for something they believe strongly in.............Justice for Trayvon

Life is full of inconveniences, every minute of every day. That is life. If I were a driver in that traffic I wouldnt feel inconvienced, I would feel pride. And I guessing there are a few drivers in that traffic that feel the same way.
As well as some that are feeling inconvenienced and dont really give a hoot about Trayvon or GZ.

IMO

Adrienne37
03-22-2012, 01:38 PM
Trayvon Martin case: A collision of race, guns and Florida law

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-20120322,0,4144995.story

daisy7
03-22-2012, 01:40 PM
Can't figure out what school they are at. Looks to be a private school. Copter tried to get the marquee but a tree was in the way.

Not good to be jumping fences .....................

It looks like it's Carol City to me, though I haven't been there in several years. I didn't go to school at CC, but was there several time via work when I lived in Miami.

Wise Old Owl
03-22-2012, 01:43 PM
Its the Betty T Ferguson Recreational Complex - not a school.

Wise Old Owl
03-22-2012, 01:43 PM
Looks like the copter is leaving - maybe needs fuel.

annalia
03-22-2012, 01:45 PM
Where is everyone watching it?

Lovejac
03-22-2012, 01:47 PM
I don't know if this has been posted yet, but I just found it interesting.

http://www.chicagonow.com/becoming-nikki-lynette/2012/03/an-open-letter-to-george-zimmerman-why-im-giving-you-the-benefit-of-the-doubt/

Wise Old Owl
03-22-2012, 01:48 PM
Where is everyone watching it?
It was a livestream from a local station down here. The feed went down now so no more to watch. I'm sure it will be all over the 5 o'clock news here. The station's site is

www.local10,com

MayraMM
03-22-2012, 01:53 PM
My son is black and went to go visit my mother last summer in Florida. While her community isn't gated, it might as well be. Definitely high-end homes. My son went for a walk, only to have a neighbor call the police because there was someone suspicious in the neighborhood. On the one hand, it's nice that they're looking out for one another, but on the other hand, he was doing nothing of a suspicious nature. He was simply going for a walk. He was guilty of being black, and that's it. The last few days since this horrible incident happened, I've been sitting here thinking how it could easily have been my son. My heart goes out to that boy's family and the family of the shooter, because hopeful justice will be done and he'll be held accountable for his actions.

Lovejac
03-22-2012, 01:56 PM
?????

TracyLynnS
03-22-2012, 01:59 PM
"Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense, which at the time was supported by physical evidence and testimony," Sanford City Manager Norton Bonaparte Jr. wrote in a letter released publicly Wednesday evening. "By Florida Statute, law enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time."

BBM

This is another thing that's bothering me. Whose testimony supported self defense? Are the witnesses giving this testimony or is it just GZ's word?

And the evidence at the time the cops arrived at the scene shows not only what I said earlier (unarmed, dead juvenile) but the police knew GZ was in pursuit without any lawful reason.

He had just been on the phone with their very own non-emergency line and was told to not pursue the suspicious looking person. When combined with the rest of the information they had, how can they say that evidence supported GZ's claim of self defense? It looks so much like vigilantism or revenge or human hunting, but it just doesn't look like self defense to me.

No evidence at the scene supported self defense. The statute does not "prohibit" an arrest. IMO, it looks like they are willing to distribute misinformation at the city government level. This is very, very dangerous and disturbing.

Horace Finklestein
03-22-2012, 02:02 PM
"Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense, which at the time was supported by physical evidence and testimony," Sanford City Manager Norton Bonaparte Jr. wrote in a letter released publicly Wednesday evening. "By Florida Statute, law enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time."

BBM

This is another thing that's bothering me. Whose testimony supported self defense? Are the witnesses giving this testimony or is it just GZ's word?

And the evidence at the time the cops arrived at the scene shows not only what I said earlier (unarmed, dead juvenile) but the police knew GZ was in pursuit without any lawful reason.

He had just been on the phone with their very own non-emergency line and was told to not pursue the suspicious looking person. When combined with the rest of the information they had, how can they say that evidence supported GZ's claim of self defense? It looks so much like vigilantism or revenge or human hunting, but it just doesn't look like self defense to me.

No evidence at the scene supported self defense. The statute does not "prohibit" an arrest. IMO, it looks like they are willing to distribute misinformation at the city government level. This is very, very dangerous and disturbing.

The police report said GZ had injuries on his nose and the back of his head. That indicates there was a fight of some kind. GZ didn't violate any laws by following Trayvon.

TracyLynnS
03-22-2012, 02:05 PM
The police report said GZ had injuries on his nose and the back of his head. That indicates there was a fight of some kind. GZ didn't violate any laws by following Trayvon.

Stalking.

HiHater
03-22-2012, 02:06 PM
Did GZ call 911 or did he call the non-emergency line when reporting Trayvon? 911 dispatchers are not usually LE personnel, but the non-emergency number is either staffed by an officer or some type of clerk...

If the instructions not to follow came from a police officer, that is a lawful order...IMO

Paulette
03-22-2012, 02:06 PM
I want to know how one can reach into their waistband while holding a phone in one hand and a can of tea in the other?

It's simply ludicrous that you can follow someone, then shoot them dead on the pretext that "they" attacked you?

What kind of logic do the police use? GZ committed cold blooded murder. There is no other explanation for his actions.

HiHater
03-22-2012, 02:07 PM
Stalking.

A more accurate term IMO would be hunting, in this case.

annalia
03-22-2012, 02:07 PM
"Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense, which at the time was supported by physical evidence and testimony," Sanford City Manager Norton Bonaparte Jr. wrote in a letter released publicly Wednesday evening. "By Florida Statute, law enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and circumstances they had at the time."

BBM

This is another thing that's bothering me. Whose testimony supported self defense? Are the witnesses giving this testimony or is it just GZ's word?

And the evidence at the time the cops arrived at the scene shows not only what I said earlier (unarmed, dead juvenile) but the police knew GZ was in pursuit without any lawful reason.

He had just been on the phone with their very own non-emergency line and was told to not pursue the suspicious looking person. When combined with the rest of the information they had, how can they say that evidence supported GZ's claim of self defense? It looks so much like vigilantism or revenge or human hunting, but it just doesn't look like self defense to me.

No evidence at the scene supported self defense. The statute does not "prohibit" an arrest. IMO, it looks like they are willing to distribute misinformation at the city government level. This is very, very dangerous and disturbing.


my bolding

I agree. The only evidence at the scene that supported GZ's claim of self defense was GZ's word. That and after police corrected witness statements who said it was Tray who was yelling for help and not GZ.

JMHO

ScubaTwinn
03-22-2012, 02:07 PM
The police report said GZ had injuries on his nose and the back of his head. That indicates there was a fight of some kind. GZ didn't violate any laws by following Trayvon.

I would like to see pictures of his injuries and know why they were not listed in the preliminary report of a HOMICIDE.

HiHater
03-22-2012, 02:16 PM
The petition is up to 1,000,000.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/2706876_p2/sanford-commission-votes-no-confidence.html#storylink=cpy


• As evidence that the incident was not a case of racial profiling, Lee told The Miami Herald that when the police dispatch operator asked Zimmerman the race of the suspicious person he saw, the Hispanic neighborhood watch captain did not know. Yet when the recording of that conversation was made public, Zimmerman clearly says, “he looks black.”

• Initial police reports never mentioned that Zimmerman had a bloody nose or a wet shirt that showed evidence of a struggle. Attorneys for the dead teen’s family believe the information was added in a second report to justify the lack of an arrest.

• Police said witness statements supported Zimmerman’s account. But several of the witnesses expressed surprise, telling The Herald that they reported hearing someone crying for help just before a shot ended the cries. The 911 tapes of witness calls bolstered their claims.

• One of the witnesses who heard the crying said she called a detective repeatedly, but said he was not interested because her account differed from Zimmerman’s.

• For nearly a month, police never noticed a profanity Zimmerman mumbled under his breath when he called police, which some people believe was accompanied by a muffled racial slur.

• Even though investigators have the dead boy’s cell phone, it was Trayvon’s father who combed through the phone records to discover that his son was talking to a girlfriend in the moments that led up to his death. Police never contacted the girl, who told lawyers that Trayvon was alarmed because he was being followed.

Horace Finklestein
03-22-2012, 02:16 PM
Stalking.

Nope. He had every legal right to follow him. They both were within their legal rights to be where they were. It's not illegal to follow someone.

momtective
03-22-2012, 02:30 PM
We are planning vacation for later this summer and have rented a very nice house in a gated community in Florida. We will have 8 of our children with us and as many of you know, our children are all African American. Honestly, I'm scared and seriously considering cancelling a wonderful family vacation because of what happened to Trayvon. It could just as easily be one of my kiddo's.

LambChop
03-22-2012, 02:39 PM
Nope. He had every legal right to follow him. They both were within their legal rights to be where they were. It's not illegal to follow someone.

You are right. But GZ did not just follow, he engaged TM and then pulled his gun and fired. If GZ was a member of the Neighborhood Watch Program as he claims he violated their rules. He violated the police department's instructions when they asked him to stay right there, wait for police he did not need to follow TM. At that point, GZ took the law into his own hands and created a situation that he believed required deadly force. GZ was the one with the gun, GZ was the adult, GZ knew better but chose to ignore what those in authority were telling him. GZ is responsible for the death of a child because he is irresponsible. There is no other way to look at it. TM never approached GZ, it was all GZ.

Horace Finklestein
03-22-2012, 02:47 PM
You are right. But GZ did not just follow, he engaged TM and then pulled his gun and fired. If GZ was a member of the Neighborhood Watch Program as he claims he violated their rules. He violated the police department's instructions when they asked him to stay right there, wait for police he did not need to follow TM. At that point, GZ took the law into his own hands and created a situation that he believed required deadly force. GZ was the one with the gun, GZ was the adult, GZ knew better but chose to ignore what those in authority were telling him. GZ is responsible for the death of a child because he is irresponsible. There is no other way to look at it. TM never approached GZ, it was all GZ.

Shouldn't we get the whole story on GZ's injuries before we make all of these sweeping assumptions? There was clearly an altercation and even if GZ was in the wrong to begin with, IF Trayvon got the better of him in a fight, it would certainly shed a different light on this. Of course, GZ is all but convicted with 100% certainty in the media so whatever he or anyone else says probably won't matter much. The public has decided they want GZ's head and they will probably get it one way or another.

gxm
03-22-2012, 02:52 PM
Nope. He had every legal right to follow him. They both were within their legal rights to be where they were. It's not illegal to follow someone.

True. But I think that blows the self-defense angle. One doesn't usually have to pursue an attacker. GZ did not merely "stand his ground," he had to cover ground to confront TM. Even the senator (Peaden) who wrote the "stand your ground" legislation says that GZ should be arrested.

But Peaden and Baxley said that 911 tapes showing that Zimmerman followed Martin despite a dispatcher's request to stay away appeared to show that the 28-year-old crime watch volunteer was the aggressor.

"The guy lost his defense right then," Peaden told the Herald. "When he said, 'I'm following him,' he lost his defense."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trayvon-martin-case-sponsors-florida-stand-ground-law-george-zimmerman-arrested-article-1.1048164#ixzz1psCIydOH

lillygator
03-22-2012, 02:55 PM
My son is black and went to go visit my mother last summer in Florida. While her community isn't gated, it might as well be. Definitely high-end homes. My son went for a walk, only to have a neighbor call the police because there was someone suspicious in the neighborhood. On the one hand, it's nice that they're looking out for one another, but on the other hand, he was doing nothing of a suspicious nature. He was simply going for a walk. He was guilty of being black, and that's it. The last few days since this horrible incident happened, I've been sitting here thinking how it could easily have been my son. My heart goes out to that boy's family and the family of the shooter, because hopeful justice will be done and he'll be held accountable for his actions.
eh, I'm gonna give the neighbor a pass on this one. The kid doesn't live there - most people know the going on's on their neighborhood. I would have been suspicious as well...not due to his color, but because I know who normally walks around the nighborhood, and we don't live in a gated community but we do live in a area with no other entrance or exit.


Nope. He had every legal right to follow him. They both were within their legal rights to be where they were. It's not illegal to follow someone.

I have to agree...I don't see any evidence of "stalking".

mikeysmommom
03-22-2012, 02:56 PM
IMO Part of the reason the police were not able to contact his dad was because they were just visitors to the dads girlfriends condo,which I assume would be listed in her name not the last name of Martin.

annalia
03-22-2012, 02:58 PM
As far as I'm concerned it wouldn't shed a new light on anything even if Trayvon got the better of him.

It certainly doesn't change the facts, it doesn't change the fact that GZ was the aggressor and what his intent was in pursuing Tray. It certainly doesn't change GZ's own words while he was in pursuit, showing his intent. It doesn't change that 911 told him to stop and he didn't, showing his intent.

It's like saying if someone was being mugged and the victim got a few punches in then the mugger is the victim and claims self defense.

I'm not about to fall for anyone saying that people are just out for GZ's head either. the facts spoke for themselves.

JMHO

LambChop
03-22-2012, 02:59 PM
Shouldn't we get the whole story on GZ's injuries before we make all of these sweeping assumptions? There was clearly an altercation and even if GZ was in the wrong to begin with, IF Trayvon got the better of him in a fight, it would certainly shed a different light on this. Of course, GZ is all but convicted with 100% certainty in the media so whatever he or anyone else says probably won't matter much. The public has decided they want GZ's head and they will probably get it one way or another.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-killer-had-brushes-prior-153033731.html

I think this is a pretty good look at Mr. Z and his background information. Have his injuries ever been confirmed? If TM were shot and fell towards GZ taking him down IMO GZ got some injuries when he landed on the ground. The only way to determine that would be how close GZ was when he shot TM. If he were three foot away there was no altercation. What will tell the story as to how close was the gun to TM's chest and the trajectory of that bullet. Wouldn't that have been important information LE would have released to the public to clear GZ?? Not saying GZ meant to shot TM but he did and comparing the two backgrounds it's not looking too good for Mr. Z. jmo

JeannaT
03-22-2012, 03:06 PM
I'm praying that the same thing happens to Zimmerman that happened to these 3 men. The crime they committed isn't much worse than what Zimmerman has done.



http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/22/justice/mississippi-hate-crime/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

I can't even imagine comparing these two cases.

JeannaT
03-22-2012, 03:11 PM
If there was an altercation, and Zimmerman was on the ground, Tray on top of him, WHY was Tray found lying on his stomach with his hands underneath him? How does that make sense?

To be face down, Zimmerman would have had to have fired from a standing position, far enough back for Tray to fall forward.....

Anyone have any other explanation for how Tray might have ended up, face down with his hands underneath him?

Salem

I can certainly imagine a scenario where they were in some kind of fight (both standing, or Zimmerman on the ground and Trayvon on top of him) and Zimmerman shoots him in the chest, and Trayvon grabs at his chest, and falls dying.

I don't think if Tray were shot in the back Zimmerman would have immediately been believed by LE on the scene.

gxm
03-22-2012, 03:15 PM
I'm praying that the same thing happens to Zimmerman that happened to these 3 men. The crime they committed isn't much worse than what Zimmerman has done.



http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/22/justice/mississippi-hate-crime/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

I don't agree. The Anderson murder was clearly a hate crime. The ring leader and his buddies went looking for an African American to attack. Not so with GZ. I don't think he went out looking for an AA youth to attack. He was policing the neighborhood, something he (apparently) does on a regular basis. However, I do think that with his history of aggression and violence coupled with his hobby of playing cops and robbers, he was a powder keg. GZ should never have had access to a gun and he needs to be off the streets. He is a dangerous man, IMO. MOO, OMO, JMHO, etc.

mikeysmommom
03-22-2012, 03:17 PM
After I posted last night I went to the very beginning and read till 5 AM.Then I listened to the 911 tapes of the people calling in HEARTBREAKING hearing him screaming for his life.

angeleleven
03-22-2012, 03:22 PM
I believe Fox news just said that a news conference is coming up in ten minutes concerning Sanford police.

What'sThatClue
03-22-2012, 03:23 PM
Press conference 3:30pm with Sanford City Manager (Orlando news channel 13)

SuziQ
03-22-2012, 03:23 PM
Shouldn't we get the whole story on GZ's injuries before we make all of these sweeping assumptions? There was clearly an altercation and even if GZ was in the wrong to begin with, IF Trayvon got the better of him in a fight, it would certainly shed a different light on this. Of course, GZ is all but convicted with 100% certainty in the media so whatever he or anyone else says probably won't matter much. The public has decided they want GZ's head and they will probably get it one way or another.

Not for me. I would expect a kid to fight back if accosted by a stranger in a deserted condo complex on a dark and rainy night. You can't instigate a situation then claim self defense.

LambChop
03-22-2012, 03:26 PM
I can certainly imagine a scenario where they were in some kind of fight (both standing, or Zimmerman on the ground and Trayvon on top of him) and Zimmerman shoots him in the chest, and Trayvon grabs at his chest, and falls dying.

I don't think if Tray were shot in the back Zimmerman would have immediately been believed by LE on the scene.

When you fall flat with your hands and arms under your body and not extended out to break your fall (a reflex action and automatic) you were probably dead before you hit the ground. If TM's body was found in his position with no other defensive wounds on him he was not fighting. If there is a recording with him pleading, crying and calling for help there is no way he initiated a fight. Once GZ was in TM's space, which he had no right to be, even TM had a right to defend himself. GZ could have called to him from 5, 6, 7 foot away I'm security why are you here? It GZ's responsibility from the moment he chose to follow TM to identify himself to TM and why he was following. Clearly GZ did not do that. jmo

Peliman
03-22-2012, 03:30 PM
News Conference scheduled in 2 mins maybe. Live link below, some news channels covering also.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/22/watch-live-sanford-officials-hold-news-conference-on-martin-case/

JeannaT
03-22-2012, 03:30 PM
When you fall flat with your hands and arms under your body and not extended out to break your fall (a reflex action and automatic) you were probably dead before you hit the ground. If TM's body was found in his position with no other defensive wounds on him he was not fighting. If there is a recording with him pleading, crying and calling for help there is no way he initiated a fight. Once GZ was in TM's space, which he had no right to be, even TM had a right to defend himself. GZ could have called to him from 5, 6, 7 foot away I'm security why are you here? It GZ's responsibility from the moment he chose to follow TM to identify himself to TM and why he was following. Clearly GZ did not do that. jmo

We don't know.

And I'm wondering what offensive (not defensive) wounds either man had. Bloody knuckles?

We don't know.

Defensive wounds are ones that indicate you were shielding your body from assault - i.e., covering your face or head. They tend to be bruises on the inside of the forearm, as if the arms were crossed in front of the face.

What'sThatClue
03-22-2012, 03:37 PM
Rev Sharpton will hold a press conference at 4:30pm, Sanford City Manager at 3:30pm (running late)

http://livewire.wesh.com/Event/Trayvon_Martin_Updates

Anadarko
03-22-2012, 03:39 PM
anybody watching? Does anyone know what the guy with the posters was talking about?

What'sThatClue
03-22-2012, 03:39 PM
Another link to presser:

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Sanford-city-manager-to-discuss-Trayvon-Martin-case/-/1637132/9671616/-/12oqsylz/-/index.html

What'sThatClue
03-22-2012, 03:39 PM
Chief Bill Lee speaking

What'sThatClue
03-22-2012, 03:40 PM
Chief Lee announces resignation

annalia
03-22-2012, 03:41 PM
Good news, Chief stepping down, he says temporarily stepping down.

Adrienne37
03-22-2012, 03:41 PM
Yes - that's 1 down, 1 to go now arrest Zimmerman NOW!

JeannaT
03-22-2012, 03:41 PM
Lee has temporarily stepped down.

Who's the guy talking? Is that the city manager?

CarolinaMoon
03-22-2012, 03:41 PM
I thought he said he was stepping down temporarily?

MicciStella
03-22-2012, 03:42 PM
Chief Lee announces resignation

Wow... Could that possibly be true?......

Micci

Blue_Dolphin308
03-22-2012, 03:42 PM
Police chief "TEMPORARILY" resigns!!! He should be FIRED imoimo

katydid23
03-22-2012, 03:42 PM
I'll bet it is not temporary.

CarolinaMoon
03-22-2012, 03:42 PM
That's it? No questions? Are they kidding me?

annalia
03-22-2012, 03:42 PM
I thought he said he was stepping down temporarily?

Yes, that's what he said.

Adrienne37
03-22-2012, 03:43 PM
http://livewire.wesh.com/Event/Trayvon_Martin_Updates

katydid23
03-22-2012, 03:43 PM
I think he quit so he could avoid being FIRED.

JeannaT
03-22-2012, 03:43 PM
I thought he said he was stepping down temporarily?

Yes. He did say that. Also, there was an announcement (didn't catch the name) of the person who will be acting as chief while they find an "interim" police chief during Lee's temporary hiatus.

Adrienne37
03-22-2012, 03:43 PM
Poll: Do you agree with Chief Bill Lee's decision to step down temporarily?
Yes (63%)
No (37%)
by Gabe Travers/WESH.com 3:42 PM


Read more: http://livewire.wesh.com/Event/Trayvon_Martin_Updates#ixzz1psPPFqV8

JeannaT
03-22-2012, 03:45 PM
That's it? No questions? Are they kidding me?

I don't think they are in a position to take any right now - they've scheduled a Grand Jury to hear the evidence in early April (I forget what date). Until then, it seems the investigation is still in progress.

annalia
03-22-2012, 03:46 PM
I think he quit so he could avoid being FIRED.

ITA, I think it's more CYA.

JMHO

Dr.Fessel
03-22-2012, 03:48 PM
Police Chief of Sanford Pretends to resign just like they pretended to investigate.

What'sThatClue
03-22-2012, 03:48 PM
I thought he said he was stepping down temporarily?

Sorry, I had an important phone call (great timing, eh?) and missed the 'temporarily' part and then the city mgr speaking. Grrrr

JeannaT
03-22-2012, 03:48 PM
Poll: Do you agree with Chief Bill Lee's decision to step down temporarily?
Yes (63%)
No (37%)
by Gabe Travers/WESH.com 3:42 PM


Read more: http://livewire.wesh.com/Event/Trayvon_Martin_Updates#ixzz1psPPFqV8

I agree, for the reasons he stated. He's become a distraction, the situation is becoming dangerously volatile (IMHO) and it's time to lessen the furor.

I still think we all need a lot more information before insisting some man gets arrested. I don't think whether to arrest someone is usually done by popularity poll when the respondents have no idea what the evidence is.

JeannaT
03-22-2012, 03:50 PM
Police Chief of Sanford Pretends to resign just like they pretended to investigate.

He didn't pretend to resign. He stepped aside temporarily. Recusing himself, basically, from the process.

annalia
03-22-2012, 03:53 PM
Is it inappropriate, unprofessional and inexcusable comments such as, when he said that GZ didn't deserve to be jumped or that Tray would have done things differently, before there ever was any investiagtion, that count as distractions? Is a police chief who acted more like a defense attorney a distraction?

This isn't about peoples reactions to this case, this is about the Chief's own actions or inactions.

JMHO

Adrienne37
03-22-2012, 03:53 PM
I agree, for the reasons he stated. He's become a distraction, the situation is becoming dangerously volatile (IMHO) and it's time to lessen the furor.

I still think we all need a lot more information before insisting some man gets arrested. I don't think whether to arrest someone is usually done by popularity poll when the respondents have no idea what the evidence is.

Thanks but personally, I need no further information to make a determination in my opinion as to whether or not Zimmerman is arrested. I have all the information I need to form my opinion. Had the situation been reversed, you can bet your bottom dollar that Travyon Martin would be under the jail right now.


~jmo~

What'sThatClue
03-22-2012, 03:53 PM
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Sanford-police-chief-temporarily-steps-down/-/1637132/9671616/-/8xg3ps/-/

Sanford Police Chief temporarily steps down..

rossva
03-22-2012, 03:55 PM
His phone.

IIRC: It has been reported LE couldn't access his phone, contacts, logs, etc because he had a lock code on it.

JeannaT
03-22-2012, 03:55 PM
Thanks but personally, I need no further information to make a determination in my opinion as to whether or not Zimmerman is arrested. I have all the information I need to form my opinion. Had the situation been reversed, you can bet your bottom dollar that Travyon Martin would be under the jail right now.


~jmo~

Then you know the extent of Zimmeman's injuries? I've missed that, except what was posted in rumors at the end of an MSM article, and it wasn't pretty.

Horace Finklestein
03-22-2012, 03:55 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-killer-had-brushes-prior-153033731.html

I think this is a pretty good look at Mr. Z and his background information. Have his injuries ever been confirmed? If TM were shot and fell towards GZ taking him down IMO GZ got some injuries when he landed on the ground. The only way to determine that would be how close GZ was when he shot TM. If he were three foot away there was no altercation. What will tell the story as to how close was the gun to TM's chest and the trajectory of that bullet. Wouldn't that have been important information LE would have released to the public to clear GZ?? Not saying GZ meant to shot TM but he did and comparing the two backgrounds it's not looking too good for Mr. Z. jmo

GZ's injuries were noted in the police report.

rossva
03-22-2012, 03:56 PM
Especially May 4th, 1970.



Symbolic gestures of the Civil Rights era yielded very CONCRETE results...

rossva
03-22-2012, 03:58 PM
I am against a lot of things but I still watch to see what is going on.

The war in the Middle East for example. For or against, these students are news.




Just curious why you are continuing to watch the live feed if you are so against what these students are doing?

LambChop
03-22-2012, 03:58 PM
He didn't pretend to resign. He stepped aside temporarily. Recusing himself, basically, from the process.

I do think he did the right thing stepping aside. Had he quit he'd be saying he knows he made the wrong decision. This way someone else will decide. jmo

Horace Finklestein
03-22-2012, 03:58 PM
I agree, for the reasons he stated. He's become a distraction, the situation is becoming dangerously volatile (IMHO) and it's time to lessen the furor.

I still think we all need a lot more information before insisting some man gets arrested. I don't think whether to arrest someone is usually done by popularity poll when the respondents have no idea what the evidence is.

Very true. Now that Sharpton's involved it's going to be a circus imo.

Adrienne37
03-22-2012, 04:03 PM
Then you know the extent of Zimmeman's injuries? I've missed that, except what was posted in rumors at the end of an MSM article, and it wasn't pretty.

I do not need to know the extent of Zimmerman's injuries. Trayvon was 17 years old, 140 pounds; Zimmerman was 28 years old, weighed at least 240 pounds and was also carrying a 9 mm semi-automatic gun so exactly what did Trayvon do to him? Flog him upside the head a couple of times with the bag of Skittles? Give me a break!

LambChop
03-22-2012, 04:03 PM
IIRC: It has been reported LE couldn't access his phone, contacts, logs, etc because he had a lock code on it.

TM had his phone on him. He was speaking with his girlfriend. His father was unaware of his son's death so who had the phone. It would have either been LE or GZ. The phone was recovered. It's part of the crime scene. LE had to have had it. Maybe it was returned to the family and they LE wanted it back to check and see who TM was talking to but LE had to have the phone if the family ended up with it. jmo

LambChop
03-22-2012, 04:08 PM
TM was talking to his girlfriend at the time he was shot. 17 year-olds live on the phone. It is one of their most prized possessions. Was the phone still in TM's hand and this is why LE did not find the phone right away???? Anyone know?? Why would LE say they didn't have the phone? It had to be there. jmo

Dr.Fessel
03-22-2012, 04:11 PM
Especially May 4th, 1970.

Ah yes, another time when pretend LE murder innocent people.

Velouria
03-22-2012, 04:11 PM
Especially May 4th, 1970.

And GZ would have fit in perfectly with the Ohio National Guard that day.

IMO.

Horace Finklestein
03-22-2012, 04:13 PM
I do not need to know the extent of Zimmerman's injuries. Trayvon was 17 years old, 140 pounds; Zimmerman was 28 years old, weighed at least 240 pounds and was also carrying a 9 mm semi-automatic gun so exactly what did Trayvon do to him? Flog him upside the head a couple of times with the bag of Skittles? Give me a break!

Good question. You never know what's going to happen in a fight, regardless of size. It is certainly possible he got the better of GZ, and we don't know where the gun was during the altercation.

SuziQ
03-22-2012, 04:13 PM
Police Chief of Sanford Pretends to resign just like they pretended to investigate.

That pretty well sums it up IMO.

rossva
03-22-2012, 04:16 PM
Has that neighbor ever called the police to report a white person walking around in the neighborhood? You are basing the one incident your son was involved in to say it was based on race. What was the race of the neighbor who made the call?



My son is black and went to go visit my mother last summer in Florida. While her community isn't gated, it might as well be. Definitely high-end homes. My son went for a walk, only to have a neighbor call the police because there was someone suspicious in the neighborhood. On the one hand, it's nice that they're looking out for one another, but on the other hand, he was doing nothing of a suspicious nature. He was simply going for a walk. He was guilty of being black, and that's it. The last few days since this horrible incident happened, I've been sitting here thinking how it could easily have been my son. My heart goes out to that boy's family and the family of the shooter, because hopeful justice will be done and he'll be held accountable for his actions.

Velouria
03-22-2012, 04:18 PM
Poll: Do you agree with Chief Bill Lee's decision to step down temporarily?
Yes (63%)
No (37%)
by Gabe Travers/WESH.com 3:42 PM


Read more: http://livewire.wesh.com/Event/Trayvon_Martin_Updates#ixzz1psPPFqV8

I would have voted "no". Sorry, but stepping down temporarily just doesn't cut it.

Nothing less than a full resignation is sufficient, IMO.

gitana1
03-22-2012, 04:19 PM
I've read many posts and articles referring to past scrapes with the law that GZ has had. What I can't recall is, was he ever convicted of anything? Any incidents that would show up on a criminal background check?

TIA

He was arrested and charged but underwent a diversion program that allowed for the ultimate dismissal of those charges upon completion of the program. Thus, he was not innocent, nor did they lack evidence, but he satisfied he DA that he had reformed enough to dismiss the charges. Usually diversion is offered when the DA feels the crime was an isolated incident.


First I've heard of this but it doesn't surprise me - being Sanford PD and all. The critical info is just exactly what went on at the scene. With such a tight timeline, Trayvon was shot 7:15-7:16 and LE arrived on scene at 7:17. Who saw what? Who was where and exactly what position was Trayvon AND GZ in? GZ could not have just been this calm "I shot this kid" level headed person (if he was - that's a red flag, or should have been right there).

So who said what? What was discussed. How many officers ended up responding? What did each one of them see, hear, say and do? I just can't imagine any officer responding to a shooting and letting the guy with the gun walk away. If the gun was visible in GZ's hand - then that officer should have gotten out of his car with his drawn! GZ should have been ordered, at gunpoint, to drop the weapon and then been immediately cuffed and removed to a backseat. Did ANY of that happen?

I just do not understand why GZ is walking free.


JMHO

I read that he was initially handcuffed after he was asked to drop his gun. IMO, as soon as they saw a black person on the ground, he was un-cuffed.


I realize you are simply attempting to assert a bit of balance to the thread and play devil's advocate but the point I was making is that it IS a prosecutor's decision. Not that of the investigating officers. THAT is my problem with this case. The responding officers determined that because GZ said he was defending himself that the stand your ground law applied to him. Then the department stated they "could not" arrest GZ because he had used that defense when people protested. My problem and my point is - This is untrue. They can take him into custody, have him arraigned, where he can then make this claim to a judge who will then rule if this specific law applies and whether he should be held over for trial.

Again. I get what you are doing and am not trying to be argumentative, but my issue is with LEOs in the field interpreting the law. It should not be happening. Their role is enforcement. Further, IF the PD in that area truly thinks they are not allowed to take anyone into custody who asserts self defense, that is a big problem IMO MOO and all that jazz.

LE does have a choice in most situations. If there is clear evidence at the scene that it was self-defense, like corroborating witnesses or a fully armed dead guy, accomplice confession, then they do not have to arrest. Remember the case of the gal in OK who shot dead the man trying to break into her home with a knife? He was found draped over a couch she had tried to use to barricade her door. He had a weapon. She had called 911 and explained what was happening. Hence, no arrest and I applaud them for that.

This case is vastly different. Suspect was unarmed, killer was asked NOT to follow the victim and ignored that request, some witnesses ID'd the victim as the one who was crying for help or being straddled and there is no corroborating evidence to indicate that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman. IMO, he should have been arrested at the scene.


ITA
I wonder if we will get to hear those 46 or how ever many calls under the Fla. Sunshine Law?:waitasec:
It would be interesting to hear who or what else he was reporting!:moo:

On the first thread, someone posted the audio and info re the 46 calls. Apparently, many of the calls were all were about "suspicious" black people. Here is some audio: http://www.clickorlando.com/news/RAW-AUDIO-George-Zimmerman-police-calls/-/1637132/9563884/-/rhd7jqz/-/index.html


Interesting

It is classified as "Homicide-Negligent Manslaughter - Unnecessary killing to prevent an unlawful act"

GZ was held at gunpoint and cuffed. Major cases was called in.

I don't get it. EVERYTHING in this report screams that charges should have been made.

Who are all the witnesses? As these the residents that called 911? I thought no one was around are actually saw the shooting.

Also, all the officers state they saw Trayvon laying on the ground but didn't immediately check on him at all. Why is that?

IMO, because Trayvon was black. As you can see, there are many people who just assume a black young man must be aggressive.


If there was an altercation, and Zimmerman was on the ground, Tray on top of him, WHY was Tray found lying on his stomach with his hands underneath him? How does that make sense?

To be face down, Zimmerman would have had to have fired from a standing position, far enough back for Tray to fall forward.....

Anyone have any other explanation for how Tray might have ended up, face down with his hands underneath him?

Salem

He's shot and rolls over or is pushed over.


Why does that police report (post 81) include the weight of every single witness, and the victim, but no weight is recorded for the subject?

They didn't want to outline that the victim was outweighed by double by the killer who shot him.

annalia
03-22-2012, 04:24 PM
On Anderson, the CNN legal analyst spoke about the First Aggressor Exception. Someone spoke about this the other night.

There have been quite a few legal analysts who spoke about an exception being who was the aggressor.

I truly believe, especially that given the past history of that department, that they thought that very night that it would all just go away, and this unknown black kid who MUST HAVE BEEN up to no good would just be another statistic.

They closed the case before it even started. That's where the outrage is.

JMHO

LambChop
03-22-2012, 04:28 PM
He was arrested and charged but underwent a diversion program that allowed for the ultimate dismissal of those charges upon completion of the program. Thus, he was not innocent, nor did they lack evidence, but he satisfied he DA that he had reformed enough to dismiss the charges. Usually diversion is offered when the DA feels the crime was an isolated incident.



I read that he was initially handcuffed after he was asked to drop his gun. IMO, as soon as they saw a black person on the ground, he was uncuffed.



LE does have a choice in most situations. If there is clear evidence at the scene that it was self-defense, like corroborating witnesses or a fully armed dead guy, accomplice confession, then they do not have to arrest. Remember the case of the gal in OK who shot dead the man trying to break into her home with a knife. He was found draped over a couch she had tried to use to barricade her door. he had a weapon. She had called 911 and explained what was happening. Hence, no arrest and I applaud them for that.

This case is vastly different. Suspect was unarmed, killer was asked NOT to follow the victim and ignored that arrest, some witnesses ID'd the victim as the one who was crying for help or being straddled and there is no corroborating evidence to indicate that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman. IMO, he should have been arrested at the scene.



On the first thread, someone posted the audio and info re the 46 calls. Apparently, many of the calls were all were about "suspicious" black people. Here is some audio: http://www.clickorlando.com/news/RAW-AUDIO-George-Zimmerman-police-calls/-/1637132/9563884/-/rhd7jqz/-/index.html



IMO, because Trayvon was black. As you can see, there are many people who just assume a black young man must be aggressive.



He's shot and rolls over or is pushed over.



They didn't want to outline that the victim was outweighed by double by the killer who shot him.

You would think if TM had been in a fight with GZ there would be marks on his hands, bruises of some kind on his body. I think the parents should ask for a copy of the autopsy report. jmo

Lovejac
03-22-2012, 04:30 PM
Then you know the extent of Zimmeman's injuries? I've missed that, except what was posted in rumors at the end of an MSM article, and it wasn't pretty.

GZ injuries were noted in the report. Blood on the back of his head and a bloody nose, you're right, not pretty at all.

I've never seen what a shot from a Kel-Tec 9 mm pistol can do to a person but I imagine that's not pretty either.

Blue_Dolphin308
03-22-2012, 04:37 PM
You know I am very leery right now. I have a very bad feeling with this "rally" going on right now.. Al sharpton being there, Increased tension... Not a good mix in my opinion.

(watching wesh online right now with people yelling.) I sure hope they can keep this peaceful, and nothing bad comes of it, but like I said I have a really really bad feeling right now!

Adrienne37
03-22-2012, 04:41 PM
http://www.wftv.com/s/watchlive/

Salem
03-22-2012, 04:43 PM
Don't start bickering, please.

Be respectful of each other and keep the discussion going.

Thanks,

Salem

Blue_Dolphin308
03-22-2012, 04:45 PM
This is going to get ugly QUICK! More and more people showing up. They are expecting thousands at the "peaceful" rally tonite at 7... Had to move locations because they were expecting more people.

And why is Al sharpton waiting until DARK to have this protest?

Don't get me wrong. I agree we need to see justice, but I am very afraid of what this can turn into .

annalia
03-22-2012, 04:46 PM
GZ injuries were noted in the report. Blood on the back of his head and a bloody nose, you're right, not pretty at all.

I've never seen what a shot from a Kel-Tec 9 mm pistol can do to a person but I imagine that's not pretty either.

Blood on his head and nose, did police bother to test to see if it was Tray's blood?

Are there hospital reports or do the SPD on the scene do medical tests too?

Yes I would imagine that being shot from a 9 mm would cause a lot of damage, and a lot of blood, there's no way if they were that close that Tray's blood wouldn't have been all over GZ. Witnesses said that GZ was straddling Tray, there would definitely have been blood transfer on his hands and elsewhere on his body.

JMHO

jjenny
03-22-2012, 04:48 PM
On Anderson, the CNN legal analyst spoke about the First Aggressor Exception. Someone spoke about this the other night.

There have been quite a few legal analysts who spoke about an exception being who was the aggressor.

I truly believe, especially that given the past history of that department, that they thought that very night that it would all just go away, and this unknown black kid who MUST HAVE BEEN up to no good would just be another statistic.

They closed the case before it even started. That's where the outrage is.

JMHO

If you follow someone to ask them question, is that in itself an act of aggression?

Blue_Dolphin308
03-22-2012, 04:49 PM
The crowd is yelling " I am Trayvon, I am Trayvon" Seems that there is one lady starting the chants, and then others join in.

gitana1
03-22-2012, 04:49 PM
Police chief "TEMPORARILY" resigns!!! He should be FIRED imoimo

Agreed.


I'll bet it is not temporary.

I'll bet it is. I think he thinks he will satisfy some of the outraged nation by this maneuver. Why resign? We simply want an arrest. A temporary resignation is not going to satisfy the public. He avoids having to do the right thing by temporarily stepping down.


Has that neighbor ever called the police to report a white person walking around in the neighborhood? You are basing the one incident your son was involved in to say it was based on race. What was the race of the neighbor who made the call?

Black people get the cops called on them ALL the time for just walking down the street. If her son was doing nothing but walking, it's a safe assumption to make that the police were called simply due to the color of his skin.

You know, there has been study after study that indicates people of color, especially black people, are treated and perceived differently, regardless of how they present themselves or how they are dressed. Yet I keep hearing this assumption/inference, mostly by white people, that black people are paranoid, they cry "racism" too much, for anything, and use it as a divisive excuse.

Sure, there are a few people who will use the cry of racism falsely and to their advantage, but black people and other minorities experience overt and subtle discrimination every.single.day. I have seen it and heard it numerous times.

I just don't understand the defensive, passionate attempts to prove that what black folks experience is a figment of their imaginations. It's a reality that is borne out by study after study, statistic after statistic and experience after experience. Walk a mile.Black & Dangerous (Part 1 of 4): Black Male Stereotypes & Weapons Detection - YouTube
What the video is about:

A Stanford University Psychologist addresses the Harvard University Law School where she describes several experiments that suggest White males & police officers subconsciously perceive Black Males as criminal and less than human. The results provide evidence of a strong automatic bidirectional association between Blacks & Crime. The image of a Black male can trigger unconscious thoughts of crime and thinking of crime can trigger unconscious thoughts of Black people. The simple presence of a Black Male may unknowingly cause thoughts of crime and violence attributed to that person.

LambChop
03-22-2012, 04:49 PM
I do think it is significant that TM told his girlfriend he wasn't going to run but was walking very fast to get away from this man. If TM saw the gun he may have been afraid to run for fear he would get shot in the back. From TM's conversation he wanted to just get away from this man because he was afraid. The fact that a witness heard cries and a call for help verifies TM was afraid for his life. If GZ had listen to LE's instructions and waited for LE to get there this would have never happened. A case of mistaken identity, a person with no authority trying to take the law into his owns hands leads to an innocent person being killed. It never should have happened and would not have happened if GZ had just listened to his instructions. His responsibility ended with a call to police. GZ obviously felt no danger because he never called 911, he called the regular call number to report a suspicion. Whatever actions he took after that are his own and he should be held accountable. jmo

Blue_Dolphin308
03-22-2012, 04:50 PM
<wishes that wesh guy would figure out that his mic IS working, and stop testing it out. GRRR

jjenny
03-22-2012, 04:54 PM
I do not need to know the extent of Zimmerman's injuries. Trayvon was 17 years old, 140 pounds; Zimmerman was 28 years old, weighed at least 240 pounds and was also carrying a 9 mm semi-automatic gun so exactly what did Trayvon do to him? Flog him upside the head a couple of times with the bag of Skittles? Give me a break!

Lets please be real here. We are discussing on another thread how one teenaged girl killed another in a physical fight without any guns involved. So it's possible to do damage without any weapons present.

annalia
03-22-2012, 04:55 PM
Sure, there are a few people who will use the cry of racism falsely and to their advantage, but black people and other minorities experience overt and subtle discrimination every.single.day. I have seen it and heard it numerous times.

I just don't understand the defensive, passionate attempts to prove that what black folks experience is a figment of their imaginations. It's a reality that is borne out by study after study, statistic after statistic and experience after experience. Walk a mile.

respectfully snipped

I'm not African American but I can clearly see that it exists, and it still exists and this case reeks of it.

ETA: I do think it's great that there are so many non African Americans who are just as outraged.

JMHO

Blue_Dolphin308
03-22-2012, 05:00 PM
Anyone have a link to what they are showing off camera on Wesh?? Something is going on, but cameras are not showing it!