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Salem
03-24-2012, 01:12 AM
Please continue here.

Please remember the rules. Please post links where applicable. Also, please be careful with the discussion regarding potential drug use and or racist comments. We don't want to start rumors. The potential drug use has been raised in MSM, but it was the personal opinion of someone that just listened to the 911 tapes, so let's not carry it too far - it is discussable, but keep it in context please.

If you have questions or concerns, please PM a mod and they will give you a hand.

Thanks,

Salem

Thread 1

Thread 2


Media Thread



And please heed Ynot's warning:

Everyone, please. Calm down.

If posters can't discuss this case in a calm, reasoned, rational manner, then we will lock this thread to give everyone some time to get their wits about them.

Use your IMO/JMOs. Don't get dragged into a personal back-and-forth with someone who may not share your opinions. Don't get personal, and don't take it personal.

If a post fires you up, you don't need to respond to it. You have the choice to move on past it, or to alert responsibly if it violates TOS.

Where this post lands is random. The consequences for your posting decisions are not random; they will be based on your choices and WS rules.




Thread 3

LolaMoon08
03-24-2012, 01:15 AM
Clean slate!

So, any idea's as to why 911 was called from Trayvon's phone on March 2nd? He had been dead for 5 days already?

Yoda
03-24-2012, 01:17 AM
"What is more frightening than any particular policy or ideology is the widespread habit of disregarding facts.”
Thomas Sowell
Please post links or moo, jmo, jmho for opinions.
Thank you.

RANCH
03-24-2012, 01:17 AM
Clean slate!

So, any idea's as to why 911 was called from Trayvon's phone on March 2nd? He had been dead for 5 days already?

I thought that was from his girlfriends phone records.

LolaMoon08
03-24-2012, 01:18 AM
I thought that was from his girlfriends phone records.

I thought it was from Tray's phone logs?

curl_in_progress
03-24-2012, 01:18 AM
Clean slate!

So, any idea's as to why 911 was called from Trayvon's phone on March 2nd? He had been dead for 5 days already?

The only thing I can think of is that is when Sanford PD got around to doing some investigating? Maybe the phone was used to dial 911 for tracing purposes so they could determine the phone number associated to the phone.

Wise Old Owl
03-24-2012, 01:21 AM
Clean slate!

So, any idea's as to why 911 was called from Trayvon's phone on March 2nd? He had been dead for 5 days already?
Good question - especially since we don't know where the phone is - even today. It wasn't listed as evidence on the police report. Trayvon's parents say they don't have it - SPD won't say anything.

So you got me - WHO used Trayvon's phone to call 911 5 days after he was killed?


Better yet,

WHO called Trayvon's phone back immediately AFTER the 911 call was made?
AND why did that person call the phone TWICE (2 minutes apart) - was the phone not answered?
AND why wasn't it answered when 911 had been called from it just 2 minutes before?


Man.................WTH is up with all this? Who was that talking on TV yesterday about the "transparency" of LE with this case?

Clear as mud?




JMHO

RANCH
03-24-2012, 01:23 AM
I thought it was from Tray's phone logs?

I can see T-mobile on the records. I thought the Trayvon had an I-Phone. T-Mobile doesn't do I-Phones as far as I know.

Wise Old Owl
03-24-2012, 01:24 AM
I thought that was from his girlfriends phone records.
Ok - who called who that Sunday night? Did Trayvon call her @ 7:12 ? Or did she call him?

Let's say it was her phone log - well then, she called 911 on 3/2. She lives in Miami. Why doess the number that calls her back have a 407 area code? Miami is 305 and broward is 954. If she called 911 from Miami and Miami/Dade LE called her back - then the number would be a 305 number.

Nope, I think its Trayvon's records.




JMHO

LolaMoon08
03-24-2012, 01:26 AM
I'm so confused? :banghead:

curl_in_progress
03-24-2012, 01:27 AM
Good question - especially since we don't know where the phone is - even today. It wasn't listed as evidence on the police report. Trayvon's parents say they don't have it - SPD won't say anything.

So you got me - WHO used Trayvon's phone to call 911 5 days after he was killed?


Better yet,

WHO called Trayvon's phone back immediately AFTER the 911 call was made?
AND why did that person call the phone TWICE (2 minutes apart) - was the phone not answered?
AND why wasn't it answered when 911 had been called from it just 2 minutes before?


Man.................WTH is up with all this? Who was that talking on TV yesterday about the "transparency" of LE with this case?

Clear as mud?




JMHO

I was reading some posts on facebook on a page dedicated to Tray and I noticed one of his friends saying that they still call his phone hoping he will pick up. I'm sure lots of people did that. Maybe even just to hear his voice on his voicemail? (That breaks my heart.)

Only speculating and this is just my opinion.

Wise Old Owl
03-24-2012, 01:28 AM
Ok - I'll even go one better. The number that calls the phone back at 12:47 and again at 12:49 is SPD. You can see the number from the screen shot and if you go to SPD home page - it is the same number. How's that for odd?

WTH is going on with this phone?



JMHO

IzzyBlanche
03-24-2012, 01:28 AM
Replying to this post from Ironhorse from locked thread:

Well unlike you with all due respect I'm not convinced Mr. Martin is a victim per se. Is he a victim in the sense he passed away in a mysterious yet tragic incident of that I have no doubt. Which is exactly why I attended the rally at Fort Mellon park and gave a donation. But lets put aside my generosity and focus on the case at hand:

I feel in the end this may well be something far less than what many have tired to make it out to be... Mr. Zimmerman goes to question an unknown individual and that individual chooses to hide his face and evade him. Meanwhile Mr. Martin unfamiliar with the neighborhood sees a stranger staring at him and feels uncomfortable pulls his hoodie up and begins to walk briskly away...From this point it seems like a twist of tragic errors on both parties fault lead to an incident, that could have easily been avoided. As a result of those missteps Mr. Martin lost his life and that's saddening.
__________________

BBM

What right did Mr. Zimmerman have to question Mr. Martin?

And why would it be wrong for someone having a total stranger questioning him choose to try to evade that person?

RANCH
03-24-2012, 01:29 AM
Ok - who called who that Sunday night? Did Trayvon call her @ 7:12 ? Or did she call him?

Let's say it was her phone log - well then, she called 911 on 3/2. She lives in Miami. Why doess the number that calls her back have a 407 area code? Miami is 305 and broward is 954. If she called 911 from Miami and Miami/Dade LE called her back - then the number would be a 305 number.

Nope, I think its Trayvon's records.




JMHO

Ok, I believe you. So that means that the post's I read saying that Trayvon had an I-Phone are incorrect?

gitana1
03-24-2012, 01:31 AM
Citing to Salem's earlier post:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #3
Trayvon is considered the victim here, from what I understand.

curl_in_progress
03-24-2012, 01:31 AM
Ok - I'll even go one better. The number that calls the phone back at 12:47 and again at 12:49 is SPD. You can see the number from the screen shot and if you go to SPD home page - it is the same number. How's that for odd?

WTH is going on with this phone?



JMHO

So then it sounds it was the police calling 911 to figure out the number of the phone. Maybe they just called the number back to make sure the cell phone would ring.

princesspjs
03-24-2012, 01:31 AM
Ok - I'll even go one better. The number that calls the phone back at 12:47 and again at 12:49 is SPD. You can see the number from the screen shot and if you go to SPD home page - it is the same number. How's that for odd?

WTH is going on with this phone?



JMHO
Maybe they were testing it out to see what would display when they called it and what would display at 911 if Tray were somehow able to call them before he was shot. I wonder if 911 may have had some hang up calls at about that time and maybe they're trying to see what Tray's phone would show at the call center.

Just thoughts...

LolaMoon08
03-24-2012, 01:32 AM
I can see T-mobile on the records. I thought the Trayvon had an I-Phone. T-Mobile doesn't do I-Phones as far as I know.

http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=16338&news=Apple+iPhone+4G+T-Mobile

This is an old article? I also found some that says something about a T-Mobile SIM card working in an IPhone?

http://www.macworld.com/article/1160588/unlocked_iphone_4_tmobile.html

ETA: Even all those years of talking about Casey's SIM CARDS, I still have no idea what they are.

IzzyBlanche
03-24-2012, 01:33 AM
Clean slate!

So, any idea's as to why 911 was called from Trayvon's phone on March 2nd? He had been dead for 5 days already?

I must have missed something. Where was the March 2 date of the call reported?

TIA.

jjenny
03-24-2012, 01:34 AM
Ok - I'll even go one better. The number that calls the phone back at 12:47 and again at 12:49 is SPD. You can see the number from the screen shot and if you go to SPD home page - it is the same number. How's that for odd?

WTH is going on with this phone?



JMHO

Where is that phone now? Is it missing? Could SPD have been looking for it and calling it to see where it pings?

curl_in_progress
03-24-2012, 01:34 AM
Ok, I believe you. So that means that the post's I read saying that Trayvon had an I-Phone are incorrect?

You can have an iPhone on tmobile. It just doesn't let you use all of the features you could if you were with an authorized carrier. (No 3G or 4G for example.) But the phone works.

IzzyBlanche
03-24-2012, 01:36 AM
I'm so confused? :banghead:

I'm right there with ya.:waitasec:

LolaMoon08
03-24-2012, 01:36 AM
I must have missed something. Where was the March 2 date of the call reported?

TIA.

We're looking at a phone log that we believe is Trayvon's and 911 was called on March 2nd. Five days after he was deceased.

RANCH
03-24-2012, 01:36 AM
http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=16338&news=Apple+iPhone+4G+T-Mobile

This is an old article? I also found some that says something about a T-Mobile SIM card working in an IPhone?

http://www.macworld.com/article/1160588/unlocked_iphone_4_tmobile.html

ETA: Even all those years of talking about Casey's SIM CARDS, I still have no idea what they are.

The poster never provided a link showing the phone was an I-Phone. So I'm going to say isn't.

Adrienne37
03-24-2012, 01:39 AM
Replying to this post from Ironhorse from locked thread:

Well unlike you with all due respect I'm not convinced Mr. Martin is a victim per se. Is he a victim in the sense he passed away in a mysterious yet tragic incident of that I have no doubt. Which is exactly why I attended the rally at Fort Mellon park and gave a donation. But lets put aside my generosity and focus on the case at hand:

I feel in the end this may well be something far less than what many have tired to make it out to be... Mr. Zimmerman goes to question an unknown individual and that individual chooses to hide his face and evade him. Meanwhile Mr. Martin unfamiliar with the neighborhood sees a stranger staring at him and feels uncomfortable pulls his hoodie up and begins to walk briskly away...From this point it seems like a twist of tragic errors on both parties fault lead to an incident, that could have easily been avoided. As a result of those missteps Mr. Martin lost his life and that's saddening.
__________________

BBM

What right did Mr. Zimmerman have to question Mr. Martin?

And why would it be wrong for someone having a total stranger questioning him choose to try to evade that person?

and yet again, I would like to post the article where Wendy Dorival, the liaison between the watch groups and the police department, is discussing the roles of Zimmerman and the neighborhood watch program.

She states that she met with Zimmerman and his group in August 2011 and provided them information regarding the program.

1. In every presentation, “I go through what the rules and responsibilities are,” she said Thursday. The volunteers’ role, she said, is “being the eyes and ears” for the police, “not the vigilante.” Members of a neighborhood watch “are not supposed to confront anyone,” she said. “We get paid to get into harm’s way. You don’t do that. You just call them from the safety of your home or your vehicle.”
Using a gun in the neighborhood watch role would be out of the question, she said in an interview.

2. In Sanford, she said, watch groups are not even supposed to make the rounds. That is the job of another kind of volunteer organization, Citizens on Patrol, whose members are selected and trained by the police and who drive the streets in a specially marked vehicle. Members of that group, Ms. Dorival said, “are armed only with a radio.”

3. The manual warns that watch members should “not attempt to apprehend a person committing a crime or to investigate a suspicious activity.” It should be emphasized to members of patrols, the materials state, that “they do not possess police power and they shall not carry weapons.” The consequences of not following the guidelines are severe, the manual states: “Each member is liable as an individual for civil and criminal charges should he exceed his authority.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46830953/#.T21dIRH2b2Y

Wise Old Owl
03-24-2012, 01:40 AM
Why would SPD wait almost 5 whole days (and week days at that) to call that phone? 5 days. I read somewhere about the phone being locked - can you still call 911 from a locked phone? So they called 911 to see what that phone's number was. And then, called it back to see if they could answer it? Why call it twice?

But more importantly why wait 5 whole days?????? Wait, by that Friday Trayvon's parents knew. Common sense says they would have asked about his phone - FIVE WHOLE DAYS????

And we still have no confirmation on where this phone is - physically - today. Its not listed as evidence on the police report. The parents say they don't have it. Now we find out that SPD has at least called it - 5 whole days AFTER the shooting.

Something ain't fittin'

It ain't fittin', it ain't fittin'
It just ain't fittin'



JMHO

RANCH
03-24-2012, 01:40 AM
I must have missed something. Where was the March 2 date of the call reported?

TIA.

In this video.

http://njuice.com/trayvon-martins-last-call-haunts-girlfriend

LolaMoon08
03-24-2012, 01:40 AM
Where is that phone now? Is it missing? Could SPD have been looking for it and calling it to see where it pings?

We've been asking where his phone has been forever! All we know is that police claim that his parents wouldn't give them permission to access the phone logs and Trayvon's parents said that they don't even have the phone, that LE has it?

IzzyBlanche
03-24-2012, 01:41 AM
We're looking at a phone log that we believe is Trayvon's and 911 was called on March 2nd. Five days after he was deceased.

Many thanks--where are you looking at it? As I said, I think I missed something.

Dr.Fessel
03-24-2012, 01:41 AM
So then it sounds it was the police calling 911 to figure out the number of the phone. Maybe they just called the number back to make sure the cell phone would ring. Or make sure the phone was in service since you can call 911 from a phone without service. Can't figure out why they called it back twice though.

LolaMoon08
03-24-2012, 01:41 AM
Why would SPD wait almost 5 whole days (and week days at that) to call that phone? 5 days. I read somewhere about the phone being locked - can you still call 911 from a locked phone? So they called 911 to see what that phone's number was. And then, called it back to see if they could answer it? Why call it twice?

But more importantly why wait 5 whole days?????? Wait, by that Friday Trayvon's parents knew. Common sense says they would have asked about his phone - FIVE WHOLE DAYS????

And we still have no confirmation on where this phone is - physically - today. Its not listed as evidence on the police report. The parents say they don't have it. Now we find out that SPD has at least called it - 5 whole days AFTER the shooting.

Something ain't fittin'

It ain't fittin', it ain't fittin'
It just ain't fittin'



JMHO

Hattie McDaniel!

Wise Old Owl
03-24-2012, 01:45 AM
Well, at least we know now that that reporter we saw earlier is completely wrong - Trayvon didn't call 911. Media and their mis-information. :banghead:

LolaMoon08
03-24-2012, 01:47 AM
Well, at least we know now that that reporter we saw earlier is completely wrong - Trayvon didn't call 911. Media and their mis-information. :banghead:

Wish they would issue not only an apology, but an explanation too! How awful to report something like that. Hope Tray's family didn't see that and get their hopes up.

Wise Old Owl
03-24-2012, 01:50 AM
Or make sure the phone was in service since you can call 911 from a phone without service. Can't figure out why they called it back twice though.
But why wait 5 days? Surely by then Trayvon's parents had asked for that phone - or where it was - or if it was found with him - or or or something. I know if it had been my child - I certainly would have. 5 days?

Wait, hold up......

Wouldn't Trayvon's dad have called that number when he started looking for him? I know I would try my child's cell first thing if they had been gone longer than they were supposed to have been.

If a phone was off - would an incoming call have been logged? What about broken? Or the battery fell out?

I don't know anymore - I can't get past the five whole days.



JMHO

Nali87
03-24-2012, 01:51 AM
For the life of me I cannot understand the way the police handled this! Even apparant suicides are investigated before the case is closed. You're telling me they took George Zimmerman at his word that HE was the VICTIM and let him walk away after shooting Trayvon? I must've missed something - that can't be it. God.

IzzyBlanche
03-24-2012, 01:52 AM
and yet again, I would like to post the article where Wendy Dorival, the liaison between the watch groups and the police department, is discussing the roles of Zimmerman and the neighborhood watch program.

She states that she met with Zimmerman and his group in August 2011 and provided them information regarding the program.

1. In every presentation, “I go through what the rules and responsibilities are,” she said Thursday. The volunteers’ role, she said, is “being the eyes and ears” for the police, “not the vigilante.” Members of a neighborhood watch “are not supposed to confront anyone,” she said. “We get paid to get into harm’s way. You don’t do that. You just call them from the safety of your home or your vehicle.”
Using a gun in the neighborhood watch role would be out of the question, she said in an interview.

2. In Sanford, she said, watch groups are not even supposed to make the rounds. That is the job of another kind of volunteer organization, Citizens on Patrol, whose members are selected and trained by the police and who drive the streets in a specially marked vehicle. Members of that group, Ms. Dorival said, “are armed only with a radio.”

3. The manual warns that watch members should “not attempt to apprehend a person committing a crime or to investigate a suspicious activity.” It should be emphasized to members of patrols, the materials state, that “they do not possess police power and they shall not carry weapons.” The consequences of not following the guidelines are severe, the manual states: “Each member is liable as an individual for civil and criminal charges should he exceed his authority.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46830953/#.T21dIRH2b2Y

In case there is any confusion here, I have never disagreed with any of your posts. And to re-post what I said on the closed thread, in light of the information you have posted, both GZ and his pal FT were disobeying the rules:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57403716/friend-of-martins-shooter-id-do-the-same-thing/

Dr.Fessel
03-24-2012, 01:53 AM
Why would SPD wait almost 5 whole days (and week days at that) to call that phone? 5 days. I read somewhere about the phone being locked - can you still call 911 from a locked phone? So they called 911 to see what that phone's number was. And then, called it back to see if they could answer it? Why call it twice?

But more importantly why wait 5 whole days?????? Wait, by that Friday Trayvon's parents knew. Common sense says they would have asked about his phone - FIVE WHOLE DAYS????

And we still have no confirmation on where this phone is - physically - today. Its not listed as evidence on the police report. The parents say they don't have it. Now we find out that SPD has at least called it - 5 whole days AFTER the shooting.

Something ain't fittin'

It ain't fittin', it ain't fittin'
It just ain't fittin'



JMHO

Let's say the phone was found in the bushes of one of the yards 5 days after the shooting. The person finds it and thinks it might be important and calls 911 with it and tells them their addy and says they found this phone and it is locked and they can't get into the phone book. 911 gives them a number to call the police or told them to bring it in and hung up. Then something soaks into the 911 operators brain about that number, maybe it is a mystery number from the shooting night that called 911 but did not say who it was and heard a fight. So 911 calls back and says don't do anything we are sending a cop to get it now.

vlpate
03-24-2012, 01:54 AM
In this video.

http://njuice.com/trayvon-martins-last-call-haunts-girlfriend

Is it the top article? I see 2/26?

curl_in_progress
03-24-2012, 01:57 AM
But why wait 5 days? Surely by then Trayvon's parents had asked for that phone - or where it was - or if it was found with him - or or or something. I know if it had been my child - I certainly would have. 5 days?

Wait, hold up......

Wouldn't Trayvon's dad have called that number when he started looking for him? I know I would try my child's cell first thing if they had been gone longer than they were supposed to have been.

If a phone was off - would an incoming call have been logged? What about broken? Or the battery fell out?

I don't know anymore - I can't get past the five whole days.



JMHO

It just further proves to me that the Sanford PD were in no rush to do any real investigating in this case. Maybe they were waiting for Tray's drug and alcohol results to come back positive and when that (I assume) came back negative, they wanted to see the contents of the phone to look elsewhere for dirt on Tray.

Just my opinion.

Dr.Fessel
03-24-2012, 01:58 AM
Well, at least we know now that that reporter we saw earlier is completely wrong - Trayvon didn't call 911. Media and their mis-information. :banghead:

That's right! Disregard part of my post above. LOL LOL

vlpate
03-24-2012, 01:59 AM
For the life of me I cannot understand the way the police handled this! Even apparant suicides are investigated because the case is close. You're telling me they took George Zimmerman at his word that HE was the VICTIM and let him walk away after shooting Trayvon? I must've missed something - that can't be it. God.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/frames/home_frames.html

For your convenience, the 911 call:
911 call 4:11 (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/911/call1.wav)
GZ: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there's this real suspicious guy retreat view circle, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or something -- he's just walking around, looking about..
Dispatcher: ... and this guy's white, black, or hispanic?
GZ: He looks black..
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
GZ: Yeah, a dark hoodie, like a gray hoodie and either jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. (unintelligible)..he's just staring
Dispatcher: Oh, he's just walking around the area?
GZ: Looking at all the houses
Dispathcher: oh ok
GZ: He's just staring at me.
Dispatcher: Ok you said it is 1111 (Patridge?) or 111?
GZ: That's the club house
Dispatcher: He's near the club house right now?
GZ: Yeah, now he's coming towards me
Dispatcher: Ok
GZ: He's got his hand in his waistband. Yeah, he's a black male
Dispatcher: Ok, how old would you say he is
GZ: He's got a button on his shirt
He's late teens
Dispatcher: Late teens, ok
GZ: Something's wrong with him. Yep, he's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.
Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything, ok
GZ: Just get an officer over him
Dispatcher: We've got them on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else.
GZ: Ok
Pause
GZ: These a-holes, they always get away. Yep, when you come to the club house you come straight in and make a left ... actually, you would go past the club house.
Dispatcher: Oh, you say it's on the left hand side from the club house?
GZ: No, you go in, straight through the entrance and then you make a left, ummm, yeah you go straight in, don't turn and make a left. Ship, he's running.
Dispatcher: He's running, which way is he running?
GZ: Down towards the other entrance of the neighborhood.
Dispatcher: Ok, which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
GZ: The back entrance.
***Here is where the unclear slur is said to be uttered***
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
GZ: Yeah
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.
GZ: Ok
Dispatcher: Alright sir, what is your name?
GZ: George, he ran...
Dispatcher: Alright George, what's your last name?
GZ: Zimmerman
Dispatcher: What's the phone number you're calling from?
GZ: Gives number
Dispatcher: Alright George, we do have them on the way, did you want to meet with the officers when they get out there?
GZ: Yeah
Dispatcher: Alright, where you gonna meet with them at?
GZ: Umm, if they come in through the, uh, street past the club house, straight past the club house, and then they go past the mailboxes, they'll see my truck
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
GZ: Umm, I don't know, it's a cut-through so I don't know the address.
Dispatcher: Do you live in the area?
GZ: Yeah
Dispatcher: What's your apartment number?
GZ: It's a home (gives incomplete address) - ah crap, I don't want to get the he** out, I don't know where this kid is
Dispatcher: Ok, do you just want to meet with them right near the mailboxes?
GZ: Yeah, that's fine.
Dispatcher: Alright George, I'll let them know to meet you out there, ok?
GZ: Could you have them call me and I'll tell them where I'm at?
Dispatcher: Ok, yeah, that's no problem
GZ: Do you need my number or you got it?
Dispatcher: Yeah, I've got it (repeats number)
GZ: Yeah, you got it
Dipatcher: Ok, no problem, I'll let 'em know to call you when they are there, yeah?
GZ: Thanks
Dispatcher: You're welcome

For forty five seconds, and no way of knowing how long before the witness called, you can hear yelling in the background of the witness 911 call here: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/911/call3.wav

gitana1
03-24-2012, 02:02 AM
Replying to this post from Ironhorse from locked thread:

Well unlike you with all due respect I'm not convinced Mr. Martin is a victim per se. Is he a victim in the sense he passed away in a mysterious yet tragic incident of that I have no doubt. Which is exactly why I attended the rally at Fort Mellon park and gave a donation. But lets put aside my generosity and focus on the case at hand:

I feel in the end this may well be something far less than what many have tired to make it out to be... Mr. Zimmerman goes to question an unknown individual and that individual chooses to hide his face and evade him. Meanwhile Mr. Martin unfamiliar with the neighborhood sees a stranger staring at him and feels uncomfortable pulls his hoodie up and begins to walk briskly away...From this point it seems like a twist of tragic errors on both parties fault lead to an incident, that could have easily been avoided. As a result of those missteps Mr. Martin lost his life and that's saddening.
__________________

BBM

What right did Mr. Zimmerman have to question Mr. Martin?

And why would it be wrong for someone having a total stranger questioning him choose to try to evade that person?

Right. Not only that, but what 17 year old kid would not try to evade a large, strange man, following him at night? As I've stated before, we teach our kids never to let a stranger approach them in such a situation, let alone question them.

By the way, you can wrap quote tags around the post you are cutting and pasting from a locked thread to avoid confusion!!! Just highlight the selected text and hit the icon that looks like a cartoon quote thing, which is in between the hash sign and the picture icon.

Dr.Fessel
03-24-2012, 02:02 AM
I am really cell phone ignorant. How do these earbuds work and where is the microphone?

annalia
03-24-2012, 02:02 AM
I'm lost, lol

Are we sure that these are Trayvon's phone records and not his girfriends?

In the video at around 1:13, it says that police have her records and her phone number but they never called. Are they referring to these records? :waitasec:

vlpate
03-24-2012, 02:04 AM
We've been asking where his phone has been forever! All we know is that police claim that his parents wouldn't give them permission to access the phone logs and Trayvon's parents said that they don't even have the phone, that LE has it?

Why on earth wouldn't they give their permission to access his phone logs?? I'm sure they will get them now.

Wise Old Owl
03-24-2012, 02:05 AM
Let's say the phone was found in the bushes of one of the yards 5 days after the shooting. The person finds it and thinks it might be important and calls 911 with it and tells them their addy and says they found this phone and it is locked and they can't get into the phone book. 911 gives them a number to call the police or told them to bring it in and hung up. Then something soaks into the 911 operators brain about that number, maybe it is a mystery number from the shooting night that called 911 but did not say who it was and heard a fight. So 911 calls back and says don't do anything we are sending a cop to get it now.
Ok - I'll play....... :biggrin:

IF the phone was found in the bushes - then how did it get there? Did Trayvon throw it right before he was shot? Or, did GZ find it before LE got there and threw it away?

IIRC Crump (Trayvon's parents' lawyer) said that his dad finally got the phone records on Sunday night - would that have been Sunday 3/4? And did he finally go that route because he had asked for the physical phone and SPD told him they didn't have it?

I'm telling ya - there is something up with this phone. There are way too many simple generic questions (like where is it) that are not even being brought up.



JMHO

vlpate
03-24-2012, 02:06 AM
I am really cell phone ignorant. How do these earbuds work and where is the microphone?

haha Doc <3 The earbuds are just mini head phones and the microphone is built into the thin cord from the headphones to the phone.

Dr.Fessel
03-24-2012, 02:06 AM
I'm lost, lol

Are we sure that these are Trayvon's phone records and not his girfriends?

In the video at around 1:13, it says that police have her records and her phone number but they never called. Are they referring to these records? :waitasec:
That phone dials 911 and the SPD calls it back 2 minutes later.

Dr.Fessel
03-24-2012, 02:07 AM
haha Doc <3 The earbuds are just mini head phones and the microphone is built into the thin cord from the headphones to the phone.

LOL LOL Great! I just sent my first text the other day.

porkchop
03-24-2012, 02:09 AM
It just further proves to me that the Sanford PD were in no rush to do any real investigating in this case. Maybe they were waiting for Tray's drug and alcohol results to come back positive and when that (I assume) came back negative, they wanted to see the contents of the phone to look elsewhere for dirt on Tray.

Just my opinion.

If you ask me they didn't want to do any investigation. In fact they did everything to make sure that any future investigation would be hampered. They didn't take Zimmerman's clothes, they didn't try to identify the victim immediately, they sent a narcotics detective to interview Zimmerman not a homicide detective, I wonder if they even took crime scene photos. They just took Zimmerman's word for gospel and called it a day.

Ironhorse
03-24-2012, 02:11 AM
What right did Mr. Zimmerman have to question Mr. Martin?

And why would it be wrong for someone having a total stranger questioning him choose to try to evade that person?

#1 Putting the Neighborhood watch thing aside for the moment... He had as much right as you do to ask someone walking past your house why they are there.

#2, Evasion will only raise suspicion... Therefore if you have a stranger asking such things be cautious but don't make things worse by creating more suspicion on yourself.

As I've said before as time goes by everyone is going to learn this was nothing more than an incident cultivated by many missteps and errors on both parties fault that resulted in a young man losing his life.

vlpate
03-24-2012, 02:14 AM
Right. Not only that, but what 17 year old kid would not try to evade a large, strange man, following him at night? As I've stated before, we teach our kids never to let a stranger approach them in such a situation, let alone question them.

<respectfully snipped>


BEM: Trayvon was 6' and Zimmerman is 5'9".

annalia
03-24-2012, 02:14 AM
For the life of me I cannot understand the way the police handled this! Even apparant suicides are investigated because the case is close. You're telling me they took George Zimmerman at his word that HE was the VICTIM and let him walk away after shooting Trayvon? I must've missed something - that can't be it. God.

You didn't miss anything, yes they pretty much took GZ at his word for everything.

JMHO

vlpate
03-24-2012, 02:20 AM
If you ask me they didn't want to do any investigation. In fact they did everything to make sure that any future investigation would be hampered. They didn't take Zimmerman's clothes, they didn't try to identify the victim immediately, they sent a narcotics detective to interview Zimmerman not a homicide detective, I wonder if they even took crime scene photos. They just took Zimmerman's word for gospel and called it a day.

While I don't understand why there are not more documents available, being Florida and their generous Sunshine Law, I doubt what we've seen is the complete investigation. I could be wrong, but there is more paperwork done for a traffic stop.
Zimmerman was taken to the police station - not sure how long he was there, but he may well have been interviewed by a homicide detective onsite.

Of course they took crime scene photos, they are known as racist, not bafoons.

mikeysmommom
03-24-2012, 02:22 AM
News reporters use to report facts...........What the H3ll has happened to the media?They put out mostly incorrect "facts" It adds to the confusion IMO.

vlpate
03-24-2012, 02:23 AM
Surely they searched the bushes for a weapon, hopefully.

Ok - I'll play....... :biggrin:

IF the phone was found in the bushes - then how did it get there? Did Trayvon throw it right before he was shot? Or, did GZ find it before LE got there and threw it away?

IIRC Crump (Trayvon's parents' lawyer) said that his dad finally got the phone records on Sunday night - would that have been Sunday 3/4? And did he finally go that route because he had asked for the physical phone and SPD told him they didn't have it?

I'm telling ya - there is something up with this phone. There are way too many simple generic questions (like where is it) that are not even being brought up.



JMHO

Nali87
03-24-2012, 02:24 AM
#1 Putting the Neighborhood watch thing aside for the moment... He had as much right as you do to ask someone walking past your house why they are there.

#2, Evasion will only raise suspicion... Therefore if you have a stranger asking such things be cautious but don't make things worse by creating more suspicion on yourself.

As I've said before as time goes by everyone is going to learn this was nothing more than an incident cultivated by many missteps and errors on both parties fault that resulted in a young man losing his life.


1. You said it yourself, when someone passes by YOUR houses, and the fact it is your house is noticeable because maybe you're standing inside. It shows to outsiders that it is your house, your property. Why would anyone expect a total stranger to ask them why they are on the streets? It doesn't make any sense. Do you walk up to strangers and randomly ask them what they're doing on so-and-so street?

2. George Zimmerman is not a cop. He was a stranger. Again, if you were walking alone and someone started asking you personal details about yourself, and you know there are murders and psychos out there, and this man has been following you in his car, would YOU volunteer any information?

porkchop
03-24-2012, 02:24 AM
#1 Putting the Neighborhood watch thing aside for the moment... He had as much right as you do to ask someone walking past your house why they are there.

#2, Evasion will only raise suspicion... Therefore if you have a stranger asking such things be cautious but don't making things worse by creating more suspicion on yourself.

As I've said before as time goes by everyone is going to learn this was nothing more than an incident cultivated by many missteps and errors on both parties fault that resulted in a young man losing his life.

Except for he didn't ask him until after he started chasing him. Zimmerman was following him, which put him on guard. During this time Zimmerman never asked him what he was doing because he was on the phone with 911. When Zimmerman continued to follow him and not say anything to him he understandably became scared and ran. And from what Trayvon's girlfriend said he stopped running when he though he lost Zimmerman. However we know he didn't and Trayvon's girlfriend said the last thing she heard was him asking Zimmerman why was he following him.

Instead of trying to play inspector maybe he should have asked Tray what he was doing instead of continuing to follow him. And once Tray ran he should have left it alone and let the cops handle it.

So I don't see how you can say anything is Tray's fault, he had a stranger following him, who didn't attempt to make contact at all with him. He did what any normal person would have done in that situation and tried to get away from him.

Dr.Fessel
03-24-2012, 02:25 AM
#1 Putting the Neighborhood watch thing aside for the moment... He had as much right as you do to ask someone walking past your house why they are there.

#2, Evasion will only raise suspicion... Therefore if you have a stranger asking such things be cautious but don't making things worse by creating more suspicion on yourself.

As I've said before as time goes by everyone is going to learn this was nothing more than an incident cultivated by many missteps and errors on both parties fault that resulted in a young man losing his life.

I honestly can not see that. You have a 27 year old man and a 17 year old teen. The 27 year old has 10 more years of life experience. He is the one that mistakenly thought this was a guy on drugs or messed up with something wrong with him and was up to no good and was just like those guys who get away. You know those guys that break into homes and get away. All of that was wrong period. And with all of that delusion in his head he arms himself and gets out and gives chase. You can hear his running footsteps in the tape.

Now this guy is 27 years old, he had the benefit of age and knew how teens would act when pushed into a corner or a situation of flight or fight. He should have been able to think about the consequences of his actions and how would he react when he was a teen if a strange man started following him then chasing him. How would he react?

annalia
03-24-2012, 02:25 AM
Right. Not only that, but what 17 year old kid would not try to evade a large, strange man, following him at night? As I've stated before, we teach our kids never to let a stranger approach them in such a situation, let alone question them.

By the way, you can wrap quote tags around the post you are cutting and pasting from a locked thread to avoid confusion!!! Just highlight the selected text and hit the icon that looks like a cartoon quote thing, which is in between the hash sign and the picture icon.

my bolding

Absolutely

Getting as far away as you can from an adult stranger following you, is what we would tell any kid. No way would we ever tell them that it would make them more suspicious. And no way would we ever tell them that they need to answer any questions from some strange adult chasing after them.

Why it doesn't apply here, and putting it all on Trayvon is mind boggling.

JMHO

vlpate
03-24-2012, 02:26 AM
News reporters use to report facts...........What the H3ll has happened to the media?They put out mostly incorrect "facts" It adds to the confusion IMO.

http://www.wpclipart.com/money/bag_of_money.png

princesspjs
03-24-2012, 02:26 AM
BEM: Trayvon was 6' and Zimmerman is 5'9".

Trayvon was 140 pounds soaking wet - spread throughout a 6 foot tall body and he would be a very thin/scrawny build...Zimmerman is 250+ and is 3 inches shorter.

Wise Old Owl
03-24-2012, 02:31 AM
Its called

Neighborhood WATCH

for a reason. You do just that WATCH. GZ knew the cops were en route and the dispatcher had already told him that "we don't need you to do that (follow him)". Ok, so Trayvon got out of GZ sight from the car - why didn't he (GZ) just WATCH him until LE got there? We're talking a matter of minutes here.

JMHO

Ironhorse
03-24-2012, 02:33 AM
1. You said it yourself, when someone passes by YOUR houses, and the fact it is your house is noticeable because maybe you're standing inside. It shows to outsiders that it was your house. Why would anyone expect a total stranger to ask them why they are on the streets? It doesn't make any sense. Do you walk up to strangers and randomly ask them what they're doing on so-and-so street?

As a matter of fact I have... But in doing so I already had drawn upon some sort of suspicion that lead me to inquire about their purpose being there... There is nothing criminal or wrong in asking someone a question.

2. George Zimmerman is not a cop. He was a stranger. Again, if you were walking alone and someone starting asking you personal details about yourself, and you know there are murders and psychos out there, and this man has been following you in his car, would YOU volunteer any information?

I have had this happen to me as well and I proceed very cautiously. My first reaction was to not behave suspiciously and secondly to ask who they are and why did they need to know...

Dr.Fessel
03-24-2012, 02:33 AM
#1 Putting the Neighborhood watch thing aside for the moment... He had as much right as you do to ask someone walking past your house why they are there.

#2, Evasion will only raise suspicion... Therefore if you have a stranger asking such things be cautious but don't make things worse by creating more suspicion on yourself.

As I've said before as time goes by everyone is going to learn this was nothing more than an incident cultivated by many missteps and errors on both parties fault that resulted in a young man losing his life.


Evasion saves your life. That is what you teach your kids when a strange man is chasing them in a neighborhood. You don't teach your kids to stand there listening to a stranger.

Nali87
03-24-2012, 02:35 AM
Its called

Neighborhood WATCH

for a reason. You do just that WATCH. GZ knew the cops were en route and the dispatcher had already told him that "we don't need you to do that (follow him)". Ok, so Trayvon got out of GZ sight from the car - why didn't he (GZ) just WATCH him until LE got there? We're talking a matter of minutes here.

JMHO

Because he was sick of "these *******s" getting away and wanted to get one of them. He took the law into his own hands and nothing anyone can tell me will make me accept the self defense argument. Men who are scared for their life don't step out of their cars. Listening to the 911 calls, not one of those people wanted to even be NEAR their windows. George Zimmerman got out of his car.

vlpate
03-24-2012, 02:37 AM
I honestly can not see that. You have a 27 year old man and a 17 year old teen. The 27 year old has 10 more years of life experience. He is the one that mistakenly thought this was a guy on drugs or messed up with something wrong with him and was up to no good and was just like those guys who get away. You know those guys that break into homes and get away. All of that was wrong period. And with all of that delusion in his head he arms himself and gets out and gives chase. You can hear his running footsteps in the tape.

Now this guy is 27 years old, he had the benefit of age and knew how teens would act when pushed into a corner or a situation of flight or fight. He should have been able to think about the consequences of his actions and how would he react when he was a teen if a strange man started following him then chasing him. How would he react?

There was a considerable period of time on the 911 call when Zimmerman said Trayvon took off running - in fact, early on in the call. I listened to the tape again, and when the dispatcher asks for Zimmerman's address, he only gives the number and says - I think - "I don't want to give that, I don't know where he is." You'll have to listen to it and see if that's what you hear. The dispatcher didn't push Zimmerman for his address, so I'm going to assume that's probably what Zimmerman said.

Trayvon's father is on video, MSNBC, standing in the area where this all took place, he pointed and said Trayvon's destination was a football field away. If Trayvon was running and had a head start on Zimmerman, who was not running while on the call, he should have made it home, IMO. Why didn't he just run home?

Nali87
03-24-2012, 02:39 AM
As a matter of fact I have... But in doing so I already had drawn upon some sort of suspicion that lead me to inquire about their purpose being there... There is nothing criminal or wrong in asking someone a question.



I have had this happen to me as well and I proceed very cautiously. My first reaction was to not behave suspiciously and secondly to ask who they are and why did they need to know...


As a young women, if someone is following me at night on the streets and I'm alone, I am not going to be interested in answering 21 questions. Especially not with all the criminals, rapists, child abductors, out there. This was at night, by someone who had been following him, by George Zimmerman own admittion. I doubt there are many people who would just stand there calmly and answers questions from someone who had been following them at night! You expect a LOT from a seventeen year old teen.

porkchop
03-24-2012, 02:39 AM
Evasion saves your life. That is what you teach your kids when a strange man is chasing them in a neighborhood. You don't teach your kids to stand there listening to a stranger.

It just amazes me that people who support Zimmerman or want to lay some blame on Trayvon say that he should not have tried to run from some stranger who was following him. I wonder if they tell their kids if somebody is following you that you should just stand there and let them have their way with you?

Dr.Fessel
03-24-2012, 02:41 AM
#1 Putting the Neighborhood watch thing aside for the moment... He had as much right as you do to ask someone walking past your house why they are there.

#2, Evasion will only raise suspicion... Therefore if you have a stranger asking such things be cautious but don't make things worse by creating more suspicion on yourself.

As I've said before as time goes by everyone is going to learn this was nothing more than an incident cultivated by many missteps and errors on both parties fault that resulted in a young man losing his life.

As a matter of fact I have... But in doing so I already had drawn upon some sort of suspicion that lead me to inquire about their purpose being there... There is nothing criminal or wrong in asking someone a question.



I have had this happen to me as well and I proceed very cautiously. My first reaction was to not behave suspiciously and secondly to ask who they are and why did they need to know...

These people you asked a queston of, did you follow them in an SUV at night then get out of that SUV and chase them down? Were they just walking home and you dreamed up they were on drugs, up to no good and always getting away?

T4Tide
03-24-2012, 02:43 AM
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/frames/home_frames.html


GZ: It's a home (gives incomplete address) - ah crap, I don't want to get the he** out, I don't know where this kid is
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/911/call3.wav

Snipped by me for space.

You know, when I listened to the call, I thought he said, "ah crap... I don't want to give that out... I don't know who this kid is."

Meaning... he didn't want to give his actual address, because both parties get a copy of the written police report? I was hit by a drunk driver when I was 21, and the guy came to my house drunk later.

I need to listen again.

Nali87
03-24-2012, 02:44 AM
It just amazes me that people who support Zimmerman or want to lay some blame on Trayvon say that he should not have tried to run from some stranger who was following him. I wonder if they tell their kids if somebody is following you that you should just stand there and let them have their way with you?

At night. With no one around! The well "he was wearing a hoodie" by people like Geraldo make me angry as well. Very similar to "well she shouldn't have worn that and she wouldn't have gotten raped".

Every instict in us tell us to be cautious, afraid of strangers. Blaming the victim for the irrational, senseless behaviour of the one who pulled the trigger doesn't make any sense.

curl_in_progress
03-24-2012, 02:48 AM
Leaked voicemail from GZ to his neighbor.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/nbc-obtains-george-zimmerman-voice-mail-28712026.html

vlpate
03-24-2012, 02:49 AM
Its called

Neighborhood WATCH

for a reason. You do just that WATCH. GZ knew the cops were en route and the dispatcher had already told him that "we don't need you to do that (follow him)". Ok, so Trayvon got out of GZ sight from the car - why didn't he (GZ) just WATCH him until LE got there? We're talking a matter of minutes here.

JMHO

I'm still not clear on how we know GZ followed him - my impression was he didn't know where he was when he hung up with the 911 operator. He clearly says "I don't know where this kid is."

Why was Trayvon staring at Zimmerman and why, instead of going home, did he start walking toward Zimmerman and then start running?

Why didn't he just run home?

I don't expect anyone to be clairvoyant and answer these, but these questions bug me. If Zimmerman was a vigilante out to kill a black kid, why call 911 and carry on a conversation? Why get into a scuffle or even ask questions - what was all the yelling about for almost one minute, why not just shoot him and forgo the busted nose?

Ironhorse
03-24-2012, 02:50 AM
It just amazes me that people who support Zimmerman or want to lay some blame on Trayvon say that he should not have tried to run from some stranger who was following him. I wonder if they tell their kids if somebody is following you that you should just stand there and let them have their way with you?

It's not that I'm laying blame on Mr. Martin but it would be foolish to not recognize that some of his behavior very likely added suspicion to the situation Mr. Zimmerman was confronted with. Does this wash away Mr. Zimmerman's responsibility to conduct himself in a professional manner, no it does not. However given the totality of the situation it does demonstrate how various missteps on both parties fault likely lead to this unfortunate situation...

Again Mr. Martin wasn't some child he was a 17 year old man.

mikeysmommom
03-24-2012, 02:51 AM
Evasion saves your life. That is what you teach your kids when a strange man is chasing them in a neighborhood. You don't teach your kids to stand there listening to a stranger.

I was just talking tonight about stranger danger to my Grandson,and if any stranger young or old, to run like the wind screaming help as loud as he can scream.Same thing I taught his 30yr old dad(When he was little lol).

flourish
03-24-2012, 02:54 AM
It's not that I'm laying blame on Mr. Martin but it would be foolish to not recognize that some of his behavior very likely added suspicion to the situation Mr. Zimmerman was confronted with. Does this wash away Mr. Zimmerman's responsibility to conduct himself in a professional manner, no it does not. However given the totality of the situation it does demonstrate how various missteps on both parties fault likely lead to this unfortunate situation...

Again Mr. Martin wasn't some child he was a 17 year old man.

RBBM

This is not true. He was a 17 year old boy. *sigh*

Nali87
03-24-2012, 02:57 AM
I'm still not clear on how we know GZ followed him - my impression was he didn't know where he was when he hung up with the 911 operator. He clearly says "I don't know where this kid is."

Why was Trayvon staring at Zimmerman and why, instead of going home, did he start walking toward Zimmerman and then start running?

Why didn't he just run home?

I don't expect anyone to be clairvoyant and answer these, but these questions bug me. If Zimmerman was a vigilante out to kill a black kid, why call 911 and carry on a conversation? Why get into a scuffle or even ask questions - what was all the yelling about for almost one minute, why not just shoot him and forgo the busted nose?

My impression was that George Zimmerman knew where Trayvon was and then lost him at the last minute. He then decided to get out of the car and follow on foot which to me seems to mean that Trayvor went somewhere that a car couldn't follow him, since before that George Zimmerman was following him in his car.

And for your question, he probably thought he lost George, since in the 911 call George couldn't see him anymore and slowed down. Anything could be the case here. Maybe he stopped and said, "man, it's silly to run, maybe I imagined it", who knows? I don't see how it's important in this case either way.

And being a Vigilante is a whole different thing that being a cold-blooded murderer. He took the law into his own hands after being cautioned not to after deciding that Trayvon Martin was up to no good and probably on drugs, THAT's what makes him a vigilante not a need to go out and kill people.

vlpate
03-24-2012, 02:57 AM
Leaked voicemail from GZ to his neighbor.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/nbc-obtains-george-zimmerman-voice-mail-28712026.html

The family should be outraged that someone is selling exclusive voice messages to WESH and making money off their dead son. Someone simply wanting to help the new investigation would have given it to authorities. IMO

Is there something in this message that is meaningful? If there is, I missed it....anyone?

Wise Old Owl
03-24-2012, 02:59 AM
Leaked voicemail from GZ to his neighbor.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/nbc-obtains-george-zimmerman-voice-mail-28712026.html
Interesting. Sounds like this neighbor has lost lost his son and GZ was doing this to make a condolence call. At first, I didn't catch the name GZ said so when he started talking about the "loss of your son" I thought maybe he had called Mr. Martin.

WESH is a reputable source (they were a huge resouce in Caylee's case) and they said that GZ had just made this call today - meaning Friday I guess.

Odd, very odd............................



JMHO

Nali87
03-24-2012, 03:00 AM
The family should be outraged that someone is selling exclusive voice messages to WESH and making money off their dead son. Someone simply wanting to help the new investigation would have given it to authorities. IMO

Is there something in this message that is meaningful? If there is, I missed it....anyone?

I don't think this was to Trayvon's family. It was to George Zimmerman's friend who apparently has lost a son as well?

Ironhorse
03-24-2012, 03:06 AM
These people you asked a queston of, did you follow them in an SUV at night then get out of that SUV and chase them down? Were they just walking home and you dreamed up they were on drugs, up to no good and always getting away?

Having worked in the Loss Prevention field for several years. I'm well qualified to recognize something a miss when I see it. Have I been mistaken before on what I was seeing of course, that's why you inquire rather than assume. A person seen in the parking lot trying to jimmy a car door looks like a theft in progress, but sometimes it's just an owner who mistakenly locked their keys in their car.

Sure I've followed someone before at night in a vehicle and I've stopped a few break-ins in doing so. Sometimes it resulted in a chase... But I've also wondered up on what appeared to be a crime and after a quick conversation it turned out there was no crime and I express my apologies and be on my way...

See this is what I mean about there being many missteps and errors in the Zimmerman/Martin incident. I never once failed to identify who I was and why I was inquiring to their reasons for being where they was.

Nali87
03-24-2012, 03:12 AM
Having worked in the Loss Prevention field for several years. I'm well qualified to recognize something a miss when I see it. Have I been mistaken before on what I was seeing of course, that's why you inquire rather than assume. A person seen in the parking lot trying to jimmy a car door looks like a theft in progress, but sometimes it's just an owner who mistakenly locked their keys in their car.

Sure I've followed someone before at night in a vehicle and I've stopped a few break-ins in doing so. Sometimes it resulted in a chase... But I've also wondered up on what appeared to be a crime and after a quick conversation it turned out there was no crime and I express my apologies and be on my way...

See this is what I mean about there being many missteps and errors in the Zimmerman/Martin incident. I never once failed to identify who I was and why I was inquiring to their reasons for being where they was.

When George Zimmerman expressed his beliefs that Trayon was up to no good, probably on drugs, he was assuming he was dealing with a criminal. He didn't feel the need to inquire about anything. He automatically grouped Trayvon with the criminals that had gotten away. You said that you identified yourself. I doubt very much that Trayvon, a teen with no prior record, who had no alcohol or drug in his system as the police have investigated, would for no apparant reason start fighting with someone who by approaching him identified himself as a neighbourhood watch authority person.

That's what sets this case apart from what you have done and how someone would've reacted in comparison to how a teenager reacts when a stranger follows him and then approaches him with a gun.

vlpate
03-24-2012, 03:17 AM
My impression was that George Zimmerman knew where Trayvon was and then lost him at the last minute. He then decided to get out of the car and follow on foot which to me seems to mean that Trayvor went somewhere that a car couldn't follow him, since before that George Zimmerman was following him in his car.

And for your question, he probably thought he lost George, since in the 911 call George couldn't see him anymore and slowed down.
Why did he try to lose GZ? He wasn't being chased when he started running, he was coming toward Zimmerman.

Anything could be the case here. Maybe he stopped and said, "man, it's silly to run, maybe I imagined it", who knows? I don't see how it's important in this case either way.
Imagined what?

And being a Vigilante is a whole different thing that being a cold-blooded murderer. He took the law into his own hands after being cautioned not to after deciding that Trayvon Martin was up to no good and probably on drugs, THAT's what makes him a vigilante not a need to go out and kill people.

Bernard Goetz was a vigilante killer. Vigilantes usually don't call the police before they start shooting, nor do cold blooded murderers. So, for me, he doesn't fit either. Both would have just shot him and drive away. Wouldn't you think?

porkchop
03-24-2012, 03:19 AM
Having worked in the Loss Prevention field for several years. I'm well qualified to recognize something a miss when I see it. Have I been mistaken before on what I was seeing of course, that's why you inquire rather than assume. A person seen in the parking lot trying to jimmy a car door looks like a theft in progress, but sometimes it's just an owner who mistakenly locked their keys in their car.

Sure I've followed someone before at night in a vehicle and I've stopped a few break-ins in doing so. Sometimes it resulted in a chase... But I've also wondered up on what appeared to be a crime and after a quick conversation it turned out there was no crime and I express my apologies and be on my way...

See this is what I mean about there being many missteps and errors in the Zimmerman/Martin incident. I never once failed to identify who I was and why I was inquiring to their reasons for being where they was.

See this is the difference, you identified yourself and asked what they were doing. Zimmerman never did that. He kept following Tray until Tray decided to run away from him. We know this because while Zimmerman was on the 911 call he never made an attempt to ask Tray anything. From what his girlfriend says the only time they spoke to each other is after Tray ran away and Zimmerman caught up to him, and Tray asked him why are you following me.

Now if somebody is following you and not saying a word are you going to stand there and wait for them to confront you or are you going to try to get the hell away from them?

Dr.Fessel
03-24-2012, 03:25 AM
Why did he try to lose GZ? He wasn't being chased when he started running, he was coming toward Zimmerman.


Imagined what?



Bernard Goetz was a vigilante killer. Vigilantes usually don't call the police before they start shooting, nor do cold blooded murderers. So, for me, he doesn't fit either. Both would have just shot him and drive away. Wouldn't you think?

Was he coming towards him or was he following him and Martin turned back and looked at him?

porkchop
03-24-2012, 03:26 AM
[quote=vlpate;7715329]Why did he try to lose GZ? He wasn't being chased when he started running, he was coming toward Zimmerman.

He tried to lose him because Zimmerman was following him and not saying anything to him. I can imagine that once he realized that Zimmerman had been following him for a while he turned to him and gave him the body language like he was saying "what do you want". when Zimmerman didn't respond he decided that it was time to run.

If somebody was in a car following you for a while, and not making any attempt to contact you, would you run away or just ignore them and wait until they do what ever it is they are going to do?

flourish
03-24-2012, 03:29 AM
Why did he try to lose GZ? He wasn't being chased when he started running, he was coming toward Zimmerman.

That is not known as a fact.


Imagined what?

That a man was following him.

Bernard Goetz was a vigilante killer. Vigilantes usually don't call the police before they start shooting, nor do cold blooded murderers. So, for me, he doesn't fit either. Both would have just shot him and drive away. Wouldn't you think?

Not if you're trying to set up a situation for a "murder in self-defense." I'm not saying GZ was doing that, just answering your question.

JMHO

Nali87
03-24-2012, 03:29 AM
Why did he try to lose GZ? He wasn't being chased when he started running, he was coming toward Zimmerman.


Imagined what?



Bernard Goetz was a vigilante killer. Vigilantes usually don't call the police before they start shooting, nor do cold blooded murderers. So, for me, he doesn't fit either. Both would have just shot him and drive away. Wouldn't you think?

No account has been giving that he was coming towards Zimmerman. The witness, his girlfriend, said she heard him ask "what are you following me for?" which would lead one to assume that Zimmerman was the one walking towards Trayvon.

Imagined that someone was following him in his car. Late at night, I'm pretty anxious to cars riding slowly past me even though it could be just my imagination. Anyways, the girlfriend said that he was not running from Zimmerman, but said that he would "walk fast", so I don't really get your point about him deciding to stop running.

No. "A vigilante is a private individual who legally or illegally punishes an alleged lawbreaker". Being a vigilante doesn't mean you are deadset on shooting someone that night. The fact that he called 911 doesn't take away from the fact that he went after Trayvon Martin after being told not to. George Zimmerman wanted to act as a cop that night and catch a criminal. That's what makes him a vigilante. No one is saying he set out with the intent to kill the first criminal he saw.

vlpate
03-24-2012, 03:31 AM
Having worked in the Loss Prevention field for several years. I'm well qualified to recognize something a miss when I see it. Have I been mistaken before on what I was seeing of course, that's why you inquire rather than assume. A person seen in the parking lot trying to jimmy a car door looks like a theft in progress, but sometimes it's just an owner who mistakenly locked their keys in their car.

Sure I've followed someone before at night in a vehicle and I've stopped a few break-ins in doing so. Sometimes it resulted in a chase... But I've also wondered up on what appeared to be a crime and after a quick conversation it turned out there was no crime and I express my apologies and be on my way...

See this is what I mean about there being many missteps and errors in the Zimmerman/Martin incident. I never once failed to identify who I was and why I was inquiring to their reasons for being where they was.

The selective usage of information is really not useful (not talking about this post), and muddies the water for those who are trying to sleuth this based on what we know for sure. The police lie, but then, when useful, the reports are accurate. Everyone lies but Trayvon't family and ABC, who were not there that night.

Like, Zimmerman was not on duty, but he should have identified himself. Zimmerman did the right thing to begin with, he called the police and tried to keep an eye on Trayvon. He gave his reasons for feeling Trayvon was suspect, he had to or the call would have been pointless. He said Trayvon was looking around at the houses, acting suspicious....there had been a lot of burglaries, it makes sense to me, so far. Where it went after he hung up with 911 was witnessed by (allegedly), one person, and that person's statement was that Zimmerman was on the bottom. Of course this has been deemed unreliable, although I've seen it on a site that is used all the time here for reference on other things.

I've had courtesy officers (security without guns), on my properties and we've had dozens of these type situations - the officer watches, tries to keep the person in sight while waiting on police, fortunately without incident.

IMO, Zimmerman started out doing the right thing, and then it all went terribly wrong. IMO

Dr.Fessel
03-24-2012, 03:31 AM
Goodnight good people. We will get this figured out. Or they will release the info. LOL

Ironhorse
03-24-2012, 03:33 AM
When George Zimmerman expressed his beliefs that Trayon was up to no good, probably on drugs, he was assuming he was dealing with a criminal. He didn't feel the need to inquire about anything. He automatically grouped Trayvon with the criminals that had gotten away. You said that you identified yourself. I doubt very much that Trayvon, a teen with no prior record, who had no alcohol or drug in his system as the police have investigated, would for no apparant reason start fighting with someone who by approaching him identified himself as a neighbourhood watch authority person.

That's what sets this case apart from what you have done and how someone would've reacted in comparison to how a teenager reacts when a stranger follows him and then approaches him with a gun.

O' you'd be surprised by some of the reactions I've encountered. There has been times when I've ran across people who've been taught all their life to be overly paranoid and fear everyone. I'm surprised they can get out of the house. They freak out just because someone follows them into the gas station to pay for the gas they just pumped...

I've dealt with a many a teenager and with a few exceptions most have poor attitudes. Many just assume because they are young that they'll be picked on and provide no aid whatsoever to clear up what is likely to be a simple misunderstanding.

As far as we all know Mr. Martin was never aware of any firearm until it was used. So, this myth about Mr. Martin being approached by a drawn Gun in the hands of Mr. Zimmerman doesn't hold up. For one I can't imagine Mr. Martin doing anything but submitting to Mr. Zimmerman's orders if a Gun was pointed at him. Secondly, no one has stepped forward to testify they witnessed Zimmerman chasing Mr. Martin with a gun drawn...

csziggy
03-24-2012, 03:33 AM
Anyone who knows the history of Sanford would know why the black citizens assume that race is a factor in the treatment of the Trayvon Martin case.

Jackie Robinson, Trayvon Martin and the Sad History of Sanford, Florida
Dave Zirin on March 23, 2012 - 12:16 AM ET

Sanford, Florida is a city that will now be known for all times as the place where Trayvon Martin was killed for the crime of Living While Black. It's in addition the place whose institutions—the police department, the local press, and even the city morgue—treated Trayvon and his body in ways that should disturb anyone with a shred of conscience.

The city of Sanford also has a past that speaks to the racism many believe to be at the heart of why Trayvon was killed and why the man who pulled the trigger was not arrested. I'm not arguing that Sanford, Florida, is somehow more or less twisted than anywhere else. Last month, unarmed, 18-year-old Ramarley Graham was killed in his bathroom by police in New York City. Last week Dane Scott Jr. in Del City, Oklahoma, was killed by police after a “scuffle.” The state medical examiner's office, however, declared Scott's death a homicide. The murder of Trayvon Martin is a “local issue” only if we understand “local” to mean local communities across the country.

But Sanford, Florida, does have its own history and it includes a collective moment of intolerance and bigotry that almost derailed the man Martin Luther King Jr. called “a freedom rider before freedom rides,” Jackie Robinson.

More: http://www.thenation.com/blog/166992/jackie-robinson-trayvon-martin-and-sad-history-sanford-florida

vlpate
03-24-2012, 03:36 AM
No account has been giving that he was coming towards Zimmerman. The witness, his girlfriend, said she heard him ask "what are you following me for?" which would lead one to assume that Zimmerman was the one walking towards Trayvon.
From the 911 call made by Zimmerman
GZ: Something's wrong with him. Yep, he's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.

Imagined that someone was following him in his car. Late at night, I'm pretty anxious to cars riding slowly past me even though it could be just my imagination. Anyways, the girlfriend said that he was not running from Zimmerman, but said that he would "walk fast", so I don't really get your point about him deciding to stop running.
Zimmerman had no reason to lie about Trayvon running - it would only weaken his story if this were a set-up. He had to have stopped running to still be in the area.

No. "A vigilante is a private individual who legally or illegally punishes an alleged lawbreaker". Being a vigilante doesn't mean you are deadset on shooting someone that night. The fact that he called 911 doesn't take away from the fact that he went after Trayvon Martin after being told not to. George Zimmerman wanted to act as a cop that night and catch a criminal. That's what makes him a vigilante. No one is saying he set out with the intent to kill the first criminal he saw.
K.

Nali87
03-24-2012, 03:37 AM
The selective usage of information is really not useful (not talking about this post), and muddies the water for those who are trying to sleuth this based on what we know for sure. The police lie, but then, when useful, the reports are accurate. Everyone lies but Trayvon't family and ABC, who were not there that night.

Like, Zimmerman was not on duty, but he should have identified himself. Zimmerman did the right thing to begin with, he called the police and tried to keep an eye on Trayvon. He gave his reasons for feeling Trayvon was suspect, he had to or the call would have been pointless. He said Trayvon was looking around at the houses, acting suspicious....there had been a lot of burglaries, it makes sense to me, so far. Where it went after he hung up with 911 was witnessed by (allegedly), one person, and that person's statement was that Zimmerman was on the bottom. Of course this has been deemed unreliable, although I've seen it on a site that is used all the time here for reference on other things.

I've had courtesy officers (security without guns), on my properties and we've had dozens of these type situations - the officer watches, tries to keep the person in sight while waiting on police, fortunately without incident.

IMO, Zimmerman started out doing the right thing, and then it all went terribly wrong. IMO

It doesn't matter if he was doing the right thing, which is discutable, until up to a certain point. Even if you want to give George Zimmerman the right to be suspicious of every black kid who walks into his neighbourhood, the question then becomes, "if you think the person is a criminal and he's up to no good and he's on drugs", do you get out of your car to follow him? And if you're the one following someone whom you haven't SEEN commit an actual crime, doesn't that give that person to be suspicious of you and to defend himself against someone that he perceives as a stranger following him AT NIGHT? And in the end you end up shooting that person you followed, then there should be a THOROUGH investigation and the one who pulled the trigger should be questioned at length by the police. George Zimmerman didn't even have to take a routine drugs and alcohol test. You betcha they did those test on Trayvon.

rotterdam
03-24-2012, 03:37 AM
I honestly can not see that. You have a 27 year old man and a 17 year old teen. The 27 year old has 10 more years of life experience. He is the one that mistakenly thought this was a guy on drugs or messed up with something wrong with him and was up to no good and was just like those guys who get away. You know those guys that break into homes and get away. All of that was wrong period. And with all of that delusion in his head he arms himself and gets out and gives chase. You can hear his running footsteps in the tape.

Now this guy is 27 years old, he had the benefit of age and knew how teens would act when pushed into a corner or a situation of flight or fight. He should have been able to think about the consequences of his actions and how would he react when he was a teen if a strange man started following him then chasing him. How would he react?

I know what I would do when such a scary weirdo silent stranger would come too close. I would give him a decent uppercut that would knock him down and run as fast as I could.

LolaMoon08
03-24-2012, 03:41 AM
It's not that I'm laying blame on Mr. Martin but it would be foolish to not recognize that some of his behavior very likely added suspicion to the situation Mr. Zimmerman was confronted with. Does this wash away Mr. Zimmerman's responsibility to conduct himself in a professional manner, no it does not. However given the totality of the situation it does demonstrate how various missteps on both parties fault likely lead to this unfortunate situation...

Again Mr. Martin wasn't some child he was a 17 year old man.

Then you would concede that Chelsea King was not some child and was a 17-year-old woman?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97484&highlight=Chelsea+King

Brittanee Drexel

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115969&highlight=Chelsea+King

Lily Burk

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87011&highlight=Chelsea+King

Mackenzie Cowell

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97484&highlight=Chelsea+King

I'm sure all these women fought as hard as they could to stay alive too.

Wise Old Owl
03-24-2012, 03:41 AM
I know what I would do when such a scary weirdo silent stranger would come too close. I would give him a decent uppercut that would knock him down and run as fast as I could.
Exactly what the few late-teen / early 20's boys I spoke with last night. We were talking about the case and that GZ had a bloddy nose. They all seemed to think that GZ might have grabbed a hold of Trayvon's arm and Trayvon clocked him one - to be able to get away.

FWIW - that is exactly what I think too. GZ reached out and grabbed him by the arm and Trayvon swung. I would have too. I don't think Trayvon saw or knew GZ had a gun.


JMHO

vlpate
03-24-2012, 03:53 AM
He tried to lose him because Zimmerman was following him and not saying anything to him. I can imagine that once he realized that Zimmerman had been following him for a while he turned to him and gave him the body language like he was saying "what do you want". when Zimmerman didn't respond he decided that it was time to run.

If somebody was in a car following you for a while, and not making any attempt to contact you, would you run away or just ignore them and wait until they do what ever it is they are going to do?

Hiney and elbows is all they'd see. I wouldn't get close and check them out, that's for sure. I'd run like heck the football field home and never look back. Trayvon was known as a "swift" athlete, Zimmerman didn't look like he'd be all that agile, but people fool you.

vlpate
03-24-2012, 03:58 AM
I know what I would do when such a scary weirdo silent stranger would come too close. I would give him a decent uppercut that would knock him down and run as fast as I could.

Hopefully, after this, you would rethink such a move. If, that is, one believes Trayvon punched Zimmerman in the nose and was shot for it.

rotterdam
03-24-2012, 04:02 AM
It doesn't matter if he was doing the right thing, which is discutable, until up to a certain point. Even if you want to give George Zimmerman the right to be suspicious of every black kid who walks into his neighbourhood, the question then becomes, "if you think the person is a criminal and he's up to no good and he's on drugs", do you get out of your car to follow him? And if you're the one following someone whom you haven't SEEN commit an actual crime, doesn't that give that person to be suspicious of you and to defend himself against someone that he perceives as a stranger following him AT NIGHT? And in the end you end up shooting that person you followed, then there should be a THOROUGH investigation and the one who pulled the trigger should be questioned at length by the police. George Zimmerman didn't even have to take a routine drugs and alcohol test. You betcha they did those test on Trayvon.

In the USA where many folks carry a gun, it is kind of suicidal to follow a suspicious stranger, first in a car and later by foot ,especially when you remain silent, do not holler from your car to ask them about their business. And also in the dark and in a very quiet area with no other folks walking by by.
That is a good way to get shot yourself.
Or may be GZ was just observing him for a bit from the car to make sure he did not have a gun.

LolaMoon08
03-24-2012, 04:04 AM
Hopefully, after this, you would rethink such a move. If, that is, one believes Trayvon punched Zimmerman in the nose and was shot for it.

Well heck, after this, we all have to rethink walking down the sidewalk in a visiting neighborhood?

vlpate
03-24-2012, 04:07 AM
It doesn't matter if he was doing the right thing, which is discutable, until up to a certain point. Even if you want to give George Zimmerman the right to be suspicious of every black kid who walks into his neighbourhood, the question then becomes, "if you think the person is a criminal and he's up to no good and he's on drugs", do you get out of your car to follow him? And if you're the one following someone whom you haven't SEEN commit an actual crime, doesn't that give that person to be suspicious of you and to defend himself against someone that he perceives as a stranger following him AT NIGHT? And in the end you end up shooting that person you followed, then there should be a THOROUGH investigation and the one who pulled the trigger should be questioned at length by the police. George Zimmerman didn't even have to take a routine drugs and alcohol test. You betcha they did those test on Trayvon.
BEM: Wasn't this around 7:00 PM? I forget about the time change, so it would have been dark.

Several people reported seeing young black males either breaking into other homes or their own home. To ignore a young black male that seemed suspicious, looking around at houses, would be wrong, especially if the ignorance is done in an effort to appear politically correct. IMO

vlpate
03-24-2012, 04:09 AM
Well heck, after this, we all have to rethink walking down the sidewalk in a visiting neighborhood?

Is his father's girlfriend's house actually within the gated neighborhood?

marauder
03-24-2012, 04:10 AM
...some of his behavior very likely added suspicion... Mr. Martin wasn't some child he was a 17 year old man... missteps on both parties...

Thanks for staying polite with the baseless speculation. I suspect that by the time Fox News and [you know who] and Beck and the freepers are done with this case, Trayvon Martin's name will be dirt, and GZ will be the big hero of defending property from, you know, wink wink, Those Bad People. A quick google search confirms this well underway. They are already making the most outrageous claims you could even possibly imagine.

If the far right can "sluttify" the reputation of a white female college grad crime victim advocate, does the reputation of a black teenager walking the streets even have a chance?

vlpate
03-24-2012, 04:17 AM
I don't think this was to Trayvon's family. It was to George Zimmerman's friend who apparently has lost a son as well?

Yes, I know.

The friend of his they've been showing video of, the gray haired man, he said he lost a son to prescription drug abuse - or misuse. Seemed that it had been a while ago though.

rotterdam
03-24-2012, 04:20 AM
Hopefully, after this, you would rethink such a move. If, that is, one believes Trayvon punched Zimmerman in the nose and was shot for it.

Do not think so. If a stranger who has been behaving in a menacing threatening way so I fear for my life, I surely would give him a nice souvenir when he gets too close to me and before he tries to harm me.

rotterdam
03-24-2012, 04:29 AM
...some of his behavior very likely added suspicion... Mr. Martin wasn't some child he was a 17 year old man... missteps on both parties...

Thanks for staying polite with the baseless speculation. I suspect that by the time Fox News and [you know who] and Beck and the freepers are done with this case, Trayvon Martin's name will be dirt, and GZ will be the big hero of defending property from, you know, wink wink, Those Bad People. A quick google search confirms this well underway. They are already making the most outrageous claims you could even possibly imagine.

If the far right can "sluttify" the reputation of a white female college grad crime victim advocate, does the reputation of a black teenager walking the streets even have a chance?

They (Fox and their ilk) are probably hunting like crazy to find bad things on the parents of Trayvon and the rest of his family and going back a couple of generations:banghead:

rotterdam
03-24-2012, 04:30 AM
Is his father's girlfriend's house actually within the gated neighborhood?

Yes, it is.

rotterdam
03-24-2012, 04:38 AM
RBBM

This is not true. He was a 17 year old boy. *sigh*

OK, let us end the silly bickering and call Trayvon an adolescent.:what: That is 10 to 19 years per WHO.

vlpate
03-24-2012, 04:46 AM
I doubt they are taking Zimmerman's side, they don't want the law messed with....I'm from a very red state and I know how they think. They're really only fueling the race fire and I hope they stop and let this be investigated properly.

...some of his behavior very likely added suspicion... Mr. Martin wasn't some child he was a 17 year old man... missteps on both parties...

Thanks for staying polite with the baseless speculation. I suspect that by the time Fox News and [you know who] and Beck and the freepers are done with this case, Trayvon Martin's name will be dirt, and GZ will be the big hero of defending property from, you know, wink wink, Those Bad People. A quick google search confirms this well underway. They are already making the most outrageous claims you could even possibly imagine.

If the far right can "sluttify" the reputation of a white female college grad crime victim advocate, does the reputation of a black teenager walking the streets even have a chance?

porkchop
03-24-2012, 05:08 AM
I doubt they are taking Zimmerman's side, they don't want the law messed with....I'm from a very red state and I know how they think. They're really only fueling the race fire and I hope they stop and let this be investigated properly.


This is what I don't understand about the people who are supporting the "Stand your ground law". Instead of supporting Zimmerman and blaming Trayvon for this, they should be pointing out how this isn't a case of stand your ground, and the law is being improperly applied her to defend Zimmerman. Which is true. They should be demanding that he be put on trial and screaming from the roof tops that this isn't a case of stand your ground.

But instead they are making him a rally point to defend this law and are incorrectly arguing that it applies to this incident. What they are doing is going to turn more people against this law and is going to lead to it's repeal.

MsFacetious
03-24-2012, 05:10 AM
Utah Jazz Point Guard Earl Watson Wears Hoodie in Support of Trayvon

During a day when the Miami Heat took a team photo wearing hoodies to show support for Trayvon Martin and New York forward Carmelo Anthony showed off an image of himself wearing a hooded sweatshirt, Watson changed his main Twitter image to a photo of him wearing a white hoodie.

---------------------------------------

"The hoodie was just support for him and his family.
It's tough, because there's me losing my little brother in a car accident when I was 17.
Let alone that family losing their kid to a brainless, insensitive, act of violence.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsjazznotes/53783296-62/kid-really-hoodie-sad.html.csp

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/earl_watson/index.html?nav=page

Earl is a good dude and his heart is definitely in the right place. :seeya:
Hopefully more celebrities will really look into the situation and become familiar with it... that's challenging with schedules.
The NBA players especially right now have really tight schedules.
Playing 4 out of 5 days... I can't fault Earl for not having all the details correct.

I can just be grateful that he cared enough to make the effort. :woohoo:

princesspjs
03-24-2012, 06:04 AM
Why did he try to lose GZ? He wasn't being chased when he started running, he was coming toward Zimmerman.


According to his g/f, Trayvon was trying to lose GZ because he had noticed that GZ was following him and he was scared. His g/f also said that she asked Trayvon to run away and he told her that he'd just walk fast and eventually Trayvon said that he thought he'd lost him but soon after that he told her that he (GZ) was right behind him (TM).

On GZ's 911 call he also tells the dispatcher that Trayvon is running away...that's when GZ ran after him after having proclaimed earlier in the call that "these a**holes always get away". Within 3 minutes, Trayvon was dead.

porkchop
03-24-2012, 06:12 AM
Zimmerman's lawyer: 'Stand your ground' doesn't apply in Trayvon Martin case



A lawyer for the man at the center of the Trayvon Martin death investigation said Florida's "stand your ground" law doesn't apply to the shooting that killed the unarmed teen.
"In my legal opinion, that's not really applicable to this case. The statute on 'stand your ground' is primarily when you're in your house," said Craig Sonner, attorney for George Zimmerman. "This is self-defense, and that's been around for forever -- that you have a right to defend yourself. So the next issue (that) is going to come up is, was he justified in using the amount of force he did?"


http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/24/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html




I think they are going to have a hard time proving self defense also.

I wonder if there is something new that hasn't been released to the public yet that made them drop the stand your ground defense and go for straight self defense?

rotterdam
03-24-2012, 06:14 AM
This is what I don't understand about the people who are supporting the "Stand your ground law". Instead of supporting Zimmerman and blaming Trayvon for this, they should be pointing out how this isn't a case of stand your ground, and the law is being improperly applied her to defend Zimmerman. Which is true. They should be demanding that he be put on trial and screaming from the roof tops that this isn't a case of stand your ground.

But instead they are making him a rally point to defend this law and are incorrectly arguing that it applies to this incident. What they are doing is going to turn more people against this law and is going to lead to it's repeal.

I think it is a very bad cowboy law. This is a country with plenty of hot heads, still some racism, constantly whipped up by the media with the fear/frenzy factors and very very easy access to a gun. With this license to kill, you have a perfect recipe for disaster.
And frankly with GZ even when they arrest him , and with this SYG statute in place, it still will be hard to argue without reasonable doubt that he did not fear for his life (think Pinellas jury) unless they drum up some better witnesses/better evidence. I put more faith on the Feds to convict GZ if they can make a hate crime out of it.

princesspjs
03-24-2012, 06:25 AM
Zimmerman's lawyer: 'Stand your ground' doesn't apply in Trayvon Martin case



A lawyer for the man at the center of the Trayvon Martin death investigation said Florida's "stand your ground" law doesn't apply to the shooting that killed the unarmed teen.
"In my legal opinion, that's not really applicable to this case. The statute on 'stand your ground' is primarily when you're in your house," said Craig Sonner, attorney for George Zimmerman. "This is self-defense, and that's been around for forever -- that you have a right to defend yourself. So the next issue (that) is going to come up is, was he justified in using the amount of force he did?"


http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/24/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html




I think they are going to have a hard time proving self defense also.

I wonder if there is something new that hasn't been released to the public yet that made them drop the stand your ground defense and go for straight self defense?
IMO they must have both realized how Baez it would look if they went with that theory.

rotterdam
03-24-2012, 07:08 AM
According to his g/f, Trayvon was trying to lose GZ because he had noticed that GZ was following him and he was scared. His g/f also said that she asked Trayvon to run away and he told her that he'd just walk fast and eventually Trayvon said that he thought he'd lost him but soon after that he told her that he (GZ) was right behind him (TM).

On GZ's 911 call he also tells the dispatcher that Trayvon is running away...that's when GZ ran after him after having proclaimed earlier in the call that "these a**holes always get away". Within 3 minutes, Trayvon was dead.

I have been thinking why Trayvon first walked up to the car and then moved away(running?) according to GZ. To check him out, I believe he said.
When I am walking somewhere and a car slows down , I would think that may be it is a friend or somebody that needs directions. You would slow down and/or walk up, expecting them to talk from the window or recognizing a friend. Nothing happened, just silence except for some unknown white guy yapping on his phone and who knows may be more guys in the car. I also think that a lonely black teenager is probably more wary of white male strangers for obvious reasons.

kline
03-24-2012, 07:36 AM
They (Fox and their ilk) are probably hunting like crazy to find bad things on the parents of Trayvon and the rest of his family and going back a couple of generations:banghead:
Especially since Obama had the audacity to say anything about it you can bet they will be working overtime to drag this kid's name through the dirt and champion his killer.
You can pretty much set your watch by the talking heads of Fox News.
Their whole mission statement is to perpetuate the notion that white property owners are a put upon discriminated against segment of society surrounded by hostile media liberals and welfare minorities.
And the kind of folks who make up their audience who desperatley want to believe this kind of garbage certainly will.
Sampling the Right Wing Blogosphere since Obama's comments its a pity that these folks dont have the insight to recognize how unseemly the Right has become in seizing on anything to take a shot at this administration.
Even the blood of teenagers.

CarolinaMoon
03-24-2012, 08:20 AM
Another day, another thread. I'm glad to see the discussion here and how all sides are behaving in a civil manner.

I will continue to read here, but I believe that at this point the discussion is going around in an endless circle. We all believe what we believe with sparse information (other than the 911 calls) to back them up.

I have my opinions, but have decided to go into lurkdom for a bit and wait for the investigation to be completed and charges/no charges made.

Once the investigation, the Sunshine Laws will kick in and a public report will be made. At that point, the Sunshine Laws will kick in and we will be inundated with documents (remember CA). At that point, we will no longer be subject to the whimsy of a lot of the MSM.

Ironhorse
03-24-2012, 08:28 AM
Zimmerman's lawyer: 'Stand your ground' doesn't apply in Trayvon Martin case



A lawyer for the man at the center of the Trayvon Martin death investigation said Florida's "stand your ground" law doesn't apply to the shooting that killed the unarmed teen.
"In my legal opinion, that's not really applicable to this case. The statute on 'stand your ground' is primarily when you're in your house," said Craig Sonner, attorney for George Zimmerman. "This is self-defense, and that's been around for forever -- that you have a right to defend yourself. So the next issue (that) is going to come up is, was he justified in using the amount of force he did?"


http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/24/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html




I think they are going to have a hard time proving self defense also.

I wonder if there is something new that hasn't been released to the public yet that made them drop the stand your ground defense and go for straight self defense?

The Stand Your Ground law simply means you don't have to retreat. It's an expansion of the Castle Doctrine meaning any where a person might be they can defend themselves. Now that's not to say other laws are cast aside just because of it. A person is still required to use reasonable care or they could be held accountable for any negligence that may transpire as a result of their actions...

rotterdam
03-24-2012, 08:30 AM
Especially since Obama had the audacity to say anything about it you can bet they will be working overtime to drag this kid's name through the dirt and champion his killer.
You can pretty much set your watch by the talking heads of Fox News.
Their whole mission statement is to perpetuate the notion that white property owners are a put upon discriminated against segment of society surrounded by hostile media liberals and welfare minorities.
And the kind of folks who make up their audience who desperatley want to believe this kind of garbage certainly will.
Sampling the Right Wing Blogosphere since Obama's comments its a pity that these folks dont have the insight to recognize how unseemly the Right has become in seizing on anything to take a shot at this administration.
Even the blood of teenagers.

OMG.It has started already on the blogs(Beck's The Blaze for example). Fox pretty well laid off this story and until recently had one segment vs 44 segments on CNN during the same time period. Pres. Obama has done it now and the political war of mud slinging and insane Trayvon vilifying has started.
This has hit the European main media too. And the info is quite accurate and not very flattering for the USA..
"One murder too many?" is the headline on this one. You will have to run it thru the translator.
http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2668/Buitenland/article/detail/3229844/2012/03/23/Trayvon-Martin-een-moord-te-veel.dhtml

momshrink
03-24-2012, 08:35 AM
Evasion saves your life. That is what you teach your kids when a strange man is chasing them in a neighborhood. You don't teach your kids to stand there listening to a stranger.

I taught my kids not to give any information, not their name, in fact, do not answer. Strange adults questioning children and teens usually have an ulterior motive. Trayvon was not trespassing, he had a right to be there and NW captains do not have the right to ask. They can watch and contact LE.

It was creepy for GZ to chase Trayvon, imo.

All JMO

LambChop
03-24-2012, 08:38 AM
It's not that I'm laying blame on Mr. Martin but it would be foolish to not recognize that some of his behavior very likely added suspicion to the situation Mr. Zimmerman was confronted with. Does this wash away Mr. Zimmerman's responsibility to conduct himself in a professional manner, no it does not. However given the totality of the situation it does demonstrate how various missteps on both parties fault likely lead to this unfortunate situation...

Again Mr. Martin wasn't some child he was a 17 year old man.

This thread is recognized by WS's as a crime against a child. Legally TM was a child.

LambChop
03-24-2012, 08:42 AM
I taught my kids not to give any information, not their name, in fact, do not answer. Strange adults questioning children and teens usually have an ulterior motive. Trayvon was not trespassing, he had a right to be there and NW captains do not have the right to ask. They can watch and contact LE.

It was creepy for GZ to chase Trayvon, imo.

All JMO

Trayvon's much younger brother was home alone so it is possible Trayvon did not want to lead this stranger to know where he was going because of his brother. It does appear TM feared this man who was following him. jmo

Sensei
03-24-2012, 08:46 AM
The Stand Your Ground law simply means you don't have to retreat. It's an expansion of the Castle Doctrine meaning any where a person might be they can defend themselves. Now that's not to say other laws are cast aside just because of it. A person is still required to use reasonable care or they could be held accountable for any negligence that may transpire as a result of their actions...

I think that Mr Zimmerman and his Attorney are going to have a very hard road to prove that he only met force with equal force to save his life. It is going to be very difficult to equate the force of someone who is unarmed vs a loaded gun. So he has some very specific legal hurdles, he first has to PROVE that he was being attacked, that he did not begin the confrontation by touching or trying to stop Mr, Martin in any way, and that he was attacked by Mr. Martin, he is going to have to prove that he had a REASONABLE fear for his life...and the fear must be seen to be reasonable considering the totality of the circumstances, he will have to point to specific reasons that he had to fear for his life the vague idea that Mr. Martin was suspcious even though he was really doing nothing wrong is not going to be sufficient, and then he is going to have to prove that the force that he used was not excessive to stop the attack...

IMO JMHO I don't think he has a chance at this one

Nali87
03-24-2012, 09:00 AM
I think that Mr Zimmerman and his Attorney are going to have a very hard road to prove that he only met force with equal force to save his life. It is going to be very difficult to equate the force of someone who is unarmed vs a loaded gun. So he has some very specific legal hurdles, he first has to PROVE that he was being attacked, that he did not begin the confrontation by touching or trying to stop Mr, Martin in any way, and that he was attacked by Mr. Martin, he is going to have to prove that he had a REASONABLE fear for his life...and the fear must be seen to be reasonable considering the totality of the circumstances, he will have to point to specific reasons that he had to fear for his life the vague idea that Mr. Martin was suspcious even though he was really doing nothing wrong is not going to be sufficient, and then he is going to have to prove that the force that he used was not excessive to stop the attack...

IMO JMHO I don't think he has a chance at this one

I think he has a big chance of walking. I don't know about the specifics in the States, but here the police messing up the case this badly could mean the judge could throw all evidence out. Not to mention the police didn't test Zimmerman for anything. But you are right about the reasonable fear, if you are so reasonably afraid that harm will come to you, why do you leave your car to follow the person that is causing you this fear?

Ironhorse
03-24-2012, 09:00 AM
The trouble with Neighborhood Watch programs is they are more like guidelines rather than a set of laws. Unless the specific neighborhood sets out in writing a set of particular rules that it's volunteers are to adhere too. Then there is nothing that forbids the volunteers from exercising the same rights they would have as individuals. In other words a private citizen can ask anyone walking through their neighborhood what's their business. And unless the Neighborhood Watch program hasn't strictly forbid the carrying of firearms while serving as a neighborhood watchman. Then those individuals have right to carry a firearm in so long as they are doing so within State laws.

As for 911 dispatchers, they can only offer recommendations to a caller, the caller is under no legal obligation to obey their recommendations. Such as in the case of Sarah McKinley, an 18 year old mother who called 911 about a break-in. The 911 dispatcher Diane Graham said she couldn’t offer advice on whether she could shoot the man who was pounding on her door. At the time, McKinley was holding a shotgun and pistol after barricading the door to her trailer with a couch. The suspect eventually broke into the house and McKinley fatally shot him.

Yes, this is the ugly truth and it may not suit some people's expectations but that's how the letter of the law is, as it stands.

songline
03-24-2012, 09:01 AM
Ok, I believe you. So that means that the post's I read saying that Trayvon had an I-Phone are incorrect?
Some people call the Android an I-Phone.
T-Mobil has an android.

LambChop
03-24-2012, 09:03 AM
I'm still not clear on how we know GZ followed him - my impression was he didn't know where he was when he hung up with the 911 operator. He clearly says "I don't know where this kid is."

Why was Trayvon staring at Zimmerman and why, instead of going home, did he start walking toward Zimmerman and then start running?

Why didn't he just run home?

I don't expect anyone to be clairvoyant and answer these, but these questions bug me. If Zimmerman was a vigilante out to kill a black kid, why call 911 and carry on a conversation? Why get into a scuffle or even ask questions - what was all the yelling about for almost one minute, why not just shoot him and forgo the busted nose?

We don't know which direction TM had to walk to get past GZ. We do know GZ was already looking at TM as a suspect which means he probably did not have a smile on his face but a look of concern. Only GZ had the questions he wanted answered, TM was only concerned about getting home to his brother with the Skittles he had purchased for him, his ice tea he planned to drink and his conversation with his gf. If TM was walking towards him why didn't GZ ask him at that point if he lived there, or at least identify himself as security for the Neighborhood Watch. GZ didn't do any of those things and he could have easily done so. GZ didn't do it because he admitted that "they always get away." GZ goal was to keep TM on the property until the police got there and that is why he never said anything to TM. GZ was afraid TM would "get away". GZ never gave TM the benefit of the doubt and essentially became judge and jury as to why TM was on the property. This incident was never a life or death situation but for GZ. GZ was never on his own private property but within the common area of the community.

I agree 100% if GZ was in his home or on his property he has a right to ask TM why he was there. Just walking down a street it was now a police matter if GZ thought TM was up to no good. I do believe that after GZ said "OK" to the dispatcher when he told GZ he "did not have to follow" that the dispatcher thought GZ would return to his truck and wait for LE to arrive or he never would have disconnected with GZ. If the dispatcher thought in any way GZ's life was in danger he would have kept him on the line.

I also feel with his younger brother at home alone and if he feared what this man was up to, TM did not want his man to know where he was going. jmo

songline
03-24-2012, 09:03 AM
Citing to Salem's earlier post:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #3 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7710929&postcount=669)
Trayvon is considered the victim here, from what I understand.

You are right...TM is the Victim.
But Seems that Al Sharpton has changed that plan.
Making GZ a victim of circumstances.
I want to see fair trial for TM but not the way they are going at it.
It is not fair play in my book.
Al Sharpton does not do anything but set up racial riots.

Nali87
03-24-2012, 09:06 AM
God. You guys, make me understand. Here in the Netherlands it's the prosecutors who decide whether to prosecute someone or not. The police collects evidence and presents it to the prosecutors. Do police in the States have so much power that they can decide whether or not to prosecute someone? How can you just take someone's word that he's innocent and that it was self defense?

songline
03-24-2012, 09:07 AM
http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=16338&news=Apple+iPhone+4G+T-Mobile

This is an old article? I also found some that says something about a T-Mobile SIM card working in an IPhone?

http://www.macworld.com/article/1160588/unlocked_iphone_4_tmobile.html

ETA: Even all those years of talking about Casey's SIM CARDS, I still have no idea what they are.

Tny card inside that caries all the data for your phone. it can be transfered to your new phone, and will have all your numbers and other info.

LambChop
03-24-2012, 09:13 AM
The trouble with Neighborhood Watch programs is they are more like guidelines rather than a set of laws. Unless the specific neighborhood sets out in writing a set of particular rules that it's volunteers are to adhere too. Then there is nothing that forbids the volunteers from exercising the same rights they would have as individuals. In other words a private citizen can ask anyone walking through their neighborhood what's their business. And unless the Neighborhood Watch program hasn't strictly forbid the carrying of firearms while serving as a neighborhood watchman. Then those individuals have right to carry a firearm in so long as they are doing so within State laws.

As for 911 dispatchers, they can only offer recommendations to a caller, the caller is under no legal obligation to obey their recommendations. Such as in the case of Sarah McKinley, an 18 year old mother who called 911 about a break-in. The 911 dispatcher Diane Graham said she couldn’t offer advice on whether she could shoot the man who was pounding on her door. At the time, McKinley was holding a shotgun and pistol after barricading the door to her trailer with a couch. The suspect eventually broke into the house and McKinley fatally shot him.

Yes, this is the ugly truth and it may not suit some people's expectations but that's how the letter of the law is, as it stands.

Well, if this is true than a private citizen should be accountable for their actions just as a police officer who shoots an unarmed innocent citizen would be. But then there is a difference, isn't there, because a police officer can be identified right away and regardless of who you are if they want to question you you must stop and cooperate. TM was under no obligation to this man and TM's right superceded GZ right to pursue him. There paths just did not cross, GZ pursued TM. Big difference. jmo

songline
03-24-2012, 09:19 AM
Why on earth wouldn't they give their permission to access his phone logs?? I'm sure they will get them now.
I have the same question.
Maybe just maybe it would show they were not looking for the boy the night he wnt missing.
Just maybe they did not call - would not make them look good at all.

Belinda
03-24-2012, 09:19 AM
You are right...TM is the Victim.
But Seems that Al Sharpton has changed that plan.
Making GZ a victim of circumstances.
I want to see fair trial for TM but not the way they are going at it.
It is not fair play in my book.
Al Sharpton does not do anything but set up racial riots.

I am not a fan of Al Sharpton either and often question his motives. However, had this case been handled properly to begin with, it would not have been necessary to have Sharpton involved or rallies or school walk-outs. Sanford PD has brought this on themselves. I don't feel the least bit sorry for them or GZ.

rotterdam
03-24-2012, 09:25 AM
I think he has a big chance of walking. I don't know about the specifics in the States, but here the police messing up the case this badly could mean the judge could throw all evidence out. Not to mention the police didn't test Zimmerman for anything. But you are right about the reasonable fear, if you are so reasonably afraid that harm will come to you, why do you leave your car to follow the person that is causing you this fear?

I also fear he has a big chance of walking but only if he is prosecuted ,provided he is even charged, in Florida. If it becomes a Fed case , he is toast.

songline
03-24-2012, 09:28 AM
There was a considerable period of time on the 911 call when Zimmerman said Trayvon took off running - in fact, early on in the call. I listened to the tape again, and when the dispatcher asks for Zimmerman's address, he only gives the number and says - I think - "I don't want to give that, I don't know where he is." You'll have to listen to it and see if that's what you hear. The dispatcher didn't push Zimmerman for his address, so I'm going to assume that's probably what Zimmerman said.

Trayvon's father is on video, MSNBC, standing in the area where this all took place, he pointed and said Trayvon's destination was a football field away. If Trayvon was running and had a head start on Zimmerman, who was not running while on the call, he should have made it home, IMO. Why didn't he just run home?


Tht is what I want to know too...Why did not the boy just run home?
Why did he go to confront GZ???

marauder
03-24-2012, 09:31 AM
Tht is what I want to know too...Why did not the boy just run home?
Why did he go to confront GZ???

Yeah, that "boy" was sure asking for trouble. But why not ask GZ why he stalked down and killed the poor fellow?

songline
03-24-2012, 09:33 AM
As a young women, if someone is following me at night on the streets and I'm alone, I am not going to be interested in answering 21 questions. Especially not with all the criminals, rapists, child abductors, out there. This was at night, by someone who had been following him, by George Zimmerman own admittion. I doubt there are many people who would just stand there calmly and answers questions from someone who had been following them at night! You expect a LOT from a seventeen year old teen.

Not answering questions, is OK but...but but...but...if I was on a phone with Girlfriend who tells him you run... you may consider running home if it was only a short distance away, or telling GF to call for help... or anything other then going to confront the man who is following you...
I would never do that part NEVER.
<modsnip>

Adrienne37
03-24-2012, 09:34 AM
God. You guys, make me understand. Here in the Netherlands it's the prosecutors who decide whether to prosecute someone or not. The police collects evidence and presents it to the prosecutors. Do police in the States have so much power that they can decide whether or not to prosecute someone? How can you just take someone's word that he's innocent and that it was self defense?

That's the way it's supposed to work here as well Nali; however, as evidenced by this case, we see plainly that LE chose to believe Zimmerman without any sort of investigation.

belle3
03-24-2012, 09:36 AM
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html
Use of Deadly Force for Lawful Self-Defense

Q. What if I am in my vehicle?

A. A person has no duty to retreat in his lawfully occupied vehicle against a person who was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering or had unlawfully and forcefully entered an occupied vehicle or had unlawfully and forcefully removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the occupied vehicle.

Q. When is a Handgun "Concealed?"

A. The Florida Legislature defines a concealed firearm as any firearm “carried on or about a person in such a manner as to conceal it from the ordinary sight of another person.” A person carrying a concealed firearm without a license is guilty of a felony of the third degree. The penalty for this offense is a prison term of up to five years.

Q. Are there special laws that apply to the use of Handguns?

A. Yes, special laws apply anytime anyone uses deadly force, whether or not the weapon is concealed. Florida law defines deadly force as force that is likely to cause death or great bodily harm. When you carry a handgun, you possess a weapon of deadly force. The law considers even an unloaded gun to be a deadly weapon when it is pointed at someone.

Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?

A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:

Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.

Using or displaying a handgun in any other circumstances could result in your conviction for crimes such as improper exhibition of a firearm, manslaughter, or worse.

Example of the kind of attack that will not justify defending yourself with deadly force: Two neighbors got into a fight, and one of them tried to hit the other by swinging a garden hose. The neighbor who was being attacked with the hose shot the other in the chest. The court upheld his conviction for aggravated battery with a firearm, because an attack with a garden hose is not the kind of violent assault that justifies responding with deadly force.

Summary

1. Never display a handgun to gain "leverage" in an argument, even if it isn't loaded or you never intend to use it.

2. The amount of force that you use to defend yourself must not be excessive under the circumstances.

Never use deadly force in self-defense unless you are afraid that if you don't, you will be killed or seriously injured;
Verbal threats never justify your use of deadly force;
If you think someone has a weapon and will use it unless you kill him, be sure you are right and are not overreacting to the situation.

3. The law permits you to carry a concealed weapon for self-defense. Carrying a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman or a "good samaritan."

4. Never carry your concealed weapon into any place where the statute prohibits carrying it.

This is not a complete summary of all the statutes and court opinions on the use of deadly force. Because the concealed weapons statute specifies that concealed weapons are to be used for lawful self-defense, we have not attempted to summarize the body of law on lawful defense of property. This information is not intended as legal advice. Every self-defense case has its own unique set of facts, and it is unwise to try to predict how a particular case would be decided. It is clear, however, that the law protects people who keep their tempers under control and use deadly force only as a last resort.

belle3
03-24-2012, 09:38 AM
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0782/0782ContentsIndex.html
The 2011 Florida Statutes

Title XLVI
CRIMES

Chapter 782
HOMICIDE

View Entire Chapter
CHAPTER 782
HOMICIDE

songline
03-24-2012, 09:39 AM
It just amazes me that people who support Zimmerman or want to lay some blame on Trayvon say that he should not have tried to run from some stranger who was following him. I wonder if they tell their kids if somebody is following you that you should just stand there and let them have their way with you?

It is my opinion that we all swarmed on Zimmerman ME INCLUDED because the immediate impression of a young boy unarmed is what we see.
As more and more information comes out, including the detailed 911 call.
The information begins to show other things.
I do not think that swarming around GZ like a flock of parasites was fair. I did it too.
I do think that bringing in Al Sharpton is not a call for justice, but a call for a riot.
I want to see Justice for TM - Whatever that means.
I do not want to see GZ harmed if it was just a string of errors.
I definitly do not want to see Al Sharpton at every Black person shooting. Where is he when a white person is shot?
He does not help the divide, he makes it worse.

belle3
03-24-2012, 09:40 AM
http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/stalking/florida/
Florida stalking laws

belle3
03-24-2012, 09:44 AM
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.07.html


1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.


(3) A person who causes the death of any person under the age of 18 by culpable negligence under s. 827.03(3) commits aggravated manslaughter of a child, a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

annalia
03-24-2012, 09:46 AM
You are right...TM is the Victim.
But Seems that Al Sharpton has changed that plan.
Making GZ a victim of circumstances.
I want to see fair trial for TM but not the way they are going at it.
It is not fair play in my book.
Al Sharpton does not do anything but set up racial riots.

Why do we keep bringing up Al Sharpton and riots?

There were NO riots, none. Sharpton isn't calling for riots.

How in the world does it make GZ a victim of circimstance?

rotterdam
03-24-2012, 09:47 AM
I have the same question.
Maybe just maybe it would show they were not looking for the boy the night he wnt missing.
Just maybe they did not call - would not make them look good at all.

Tracy Martin was out for dinner with his girlfriend when Tray was murdered and not home.
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20581404,00.html

Ironhorse
03-24-2012, 09:48 AM
I think that Mr Zimmerman and his Attorney are going to have a very hard road to prove that he only met force with equal force to save his life. It is going to be very difficult to equate the force of someone who is unarmed vs a loaded gun. So he has some very specific legal hurdles, he first has to PROVE that he was being attacked, that he did not begin the confrontation by touching or trying to stop Mr, Martin in any way, and that he was attacked by Mr. Martin, he is going to have to prove that he had a REASONABLE fear for his life...and the fear must be seen to be reasonable considering the totality of the circumstances, he will have to point to specific reasons that he had to fear for his life the vague idea that Mr. Martin was suspcious even though he was really doing nothing wrong is not going to be sufficient, and then he is going to have to prove that the force that he used was not excessive to stop the attack...


O' I do in fact agree very much with your assertion. However, this isn't Mr. Zimmerman's burden to prove that rest with the prosecution. If Mr. Zimmerman is eventually charged then he'll be the defendant in a court of law. And as we all know it's never the defendant's job to prove his/her innocence. But again there is very few facts that have been released regarding the incident. SPD at the time of the shooting didn't find any evidence that would indicate this was anything other than self-defense. As time progresses more evidence may come to light but right now the public/media are just speculating as to what transpired the evening Mr. Martin lost his life.

I feel bad for the Martin family, I even attended the rally in Fort Mellon park and gave a donation. Nevertheless, just because I feel sad for the Martin Family. I also don't want to see a man railroaded off to jail over a witch hunt. I've yet to hear any evidence that doesn't say Mr. Zimmerman wasn't justified in self-defense... Neither his age or size has anything to do with exercising self-defense. One doesn't have to be some sort of frightened little scaredy cat to resort to self-defense. All that is necessary is for a person to believe they're in reasonable danger of serious harm. If Mr. Martin gave any sort of verbal threat such as "I'm going to kill you" that threat has to be taken seriously. If Mr. Martin was physically punching and hitting Mr. Zimmerman at the time of the threat then Mr. Zimmerman very well had reason to believe Mr. Martin intended to make good on that threat.

Do I think Mr. Zimmerman made several mistakes. Yes I do... I also think Mr Martin by no intended fault of his own probably added fuel to a fire by creating a situation that brought more suspicion on himself... Anyhow, I think the further investigation of this incident will bear this out. However, in the end it might just turnout given the circumstances just before the trigger was pulled Mr. Zimmerman had little choice but do what he did... The sad part is a young man lost his life all on account of some very bad missteps and tragic twist that lead both individuals to assume false beliefs of the others intentions. It became a sick self-fulfilling prophecy for both, that could have easily been avoided had both not let their imaginations run wild.

Talina
03-24-2012, 09:51 AM
Evasion saves your life. That is what you teach your kids when a strange man is chasing them in a neighborhood. You don't teach your kids to stand there listening to a stranger.

:goodpost:

Which is exactly what has me so :waitasec: with the people that are saying, suggesting, implying, inferring, etc., that Trayvon is culpable for this situation in any way because he walked fast or ran from GZ or didn't answer his question, etc.

I'd never tell my teenagers or even my grown kids to stop and let a stranger catch up with you that is following you. No way. I say, get to a safe location as fast as possible and if they are still following you, call the police.

IMO

belle3
03-24-2012, 09:51 AM
I have the same question.
Maybe just maybe it would show they were not looking for the boy the night he wnt missing.
Just maybe they did not call - would not make them look good at all.

Its possible, because of police mishandling of the situation, that the family did not trust them enough to release that info.

Velouria
03-24-2012, 09:54 AM
Then you would concede that Chelsea King was not some child and was a 17-year-old woman?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97484&highlight=Chelsea+King

Brittanee Drexel

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115969&highlight=Chelsea+King

Lily Burk

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87011&highlight=Chelsea+King

Mackenzie Cowell

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97484&highlight=Chelsea+King

I'm sure all these women fought as hard as they could to stay alive too.

Yeah, but were they wearing hoodies and look like they were "on drugs"? :rolleyes:

belle3
03-24-2012, 09:55 AM
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.11.html
782.11 Unnecessary killing to prevent unlawful act.—Whoever shall unnecessarily kill another, either while resisting an attempt by such other person to commit any felony, or to do any other unlawful act, or after such attempt shall have failed, shall be deemed guilty of manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
History.—s. 13, ch. 1637, 1868; RS 2388; GS 3213; RGS 5043; CGL 7145; s. 719, ch. 71-136.

Adrienne37
03-24-2012, 09:55 AM
You have got to be kidding me.....

What a nice way to tell a parent that their child was murdered. Absolutely unbelievable Sanford Police Department.

Three police cars soon pulled up and a detective asked Tracy for a recent picture of his son. "I had one on my phone, so I showed it to him," Tracy says, his voice tightening. "He told me he was going to show me a photo and ask if it was my son. He pulled out a photo of Trayvon's dead body. And the nightmare began."

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20581404,00.html

belle3
03-24-2012, 09:58 AM
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html

2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

Talina
03-24-2012, 10:00 AM
There was a considerable period of time on the 911 call when Zimmerman said Trayvon took off running - in fact, early on in the call. I listened to the tape again, and when the dispatcher asks for Zimmerman's address, he only gives the number and says - I think - "I don't want to give that, I don't know where he is." You'll have to listen to it and see if that's what you hear. The dispatcher didn't push Zimmerman for his address, so I'm going to assume that's probably what Zimmerman said.

Trayvon's father is on video, MSNBC, standing in the area where this all took place, he pointed and said Trayvon's destination was a football field away. If Trayvon was running and had a head start on Zimmerman, who was not running while on the call, he should have made it home, IMO. Why didn't he just run home?

I've listened to GZ's call several times and it does sound to me like GZ is running. Some of his words are a bit choppy and he sounds breathless on and off like someone does when they are walking fast, jogging or running. It also seems obvious to me that the police dispatcher that he was talking to thought he was on the move as well since he was asked if he was following him.

According to Trayvon's gf she said that at one point Trayvon thought he had gotten away but then says, no he's back or there he is again. Something to that effect. At the time when he thought he had lost GZ, he might have quit running. We also have GZ saying Trayvon was running and we have the gf saying Trayvon told her he would just walk fast - so who knows whether he was walking fast or running.

Honestly, for me, the only thing relevant is that Trayvon was going away from GZ, not towards him. That is what is significant. GZ followed and pursued Trayvon. I don't see how someone can do that and then claim self defense under the SYG law. Per what many legal experts, the individuals that wrote the law, the former governor that signed the law and other legal minds that have read the law - they all say that what GZ did is not protected under that law. The police are who have said he is protected under that law.

I'm inclined to take the law authors and other lawyers interpretation of the law over LE interpreting this particular law since it seems to be a very confusing and broad law. They should have arrested him and let the prosecutor and judge figure out whether or not he is protected under the SYG law.


IMO

Velouria
03-24-2012, 10:03 AM
The trouble with Neighborhood Watch programs is they are more like guidelines rather than a set of laws. Unless the specific neighborhood sets out in writing a set of particular rules that it's volunteers are to adhere too. Then there is nothing that forbids the volunteers from exercising the same rights they would have as individuals. In other words a private citizen can ask anyone walking through their neighborhood what's their business. And unless the Neighborhood Watch program hasn't strictly forbid the carrying of firearms while serving as a neighborhood watchman. Then those individuals have right to carry a firearm in so long as they are doing so within State laws.

As for 911 dispatchers, they can only offer recommendations to a caller, the caller is under no legal obligation to obey their recommendations. Such as in the case of Sarah McKinley, an 18 year old mother who called 911 about a break-in. The 911 dispatcher Diane Graham said she couldn’t offer advice on whether she could shoot the man who was pounding on her door. At the time, McKinley was holding a shotgun and pistol after barricading the door to her trailer with a couch. The suspect eventually broke into the house and McKinley fatally shot him.

Yes, this is the ugly truth and it may not suit some people's expectations but that's how the letter of the law is, as it stands.

BBM

That is hardly a comparable set of facts.

McKinley was in her own home, alone with her infant son, with an armed intruder ready to break down her door. The operator told her she could not tell her to shoot, but said "you do what you have to do to keep yourself safe".

GZ acknowledged the operator's statement "we don't need you to do that" but proceeded to follow Trayvon anyway. It may not have been illegal to disregard the instruction, but it was flat-out stupid and unnecessary - unlike what Sarah McKinley did to protect herself and her son.

belle3
03-24-2012, 10:07 AM
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

annalia
03-24-2012, 10:10 AM
The trouble with Neighborhood Watch programs is they are more like guidelines rather than a set of laws. Unless the specific neighborhood sets out in writing a set of particular rules that it's volunteers are to adhere too. Then there is nothing that forbids the volunteers from exercising the same rights they would have as individuals. In other words a private citizen can ask anyone walking through their neighborhood what's their business. And unless the Neighborhood Watch program hasn't strictly forbid the carrying of firearms while serving as a neighborhood watchman. Then those individuals have right to carry a firearm in so long as they are doing so within State laws.

As for 911 dispatchers, they can only offer recommendations to a caller, the caller is under no legal obligation to obey their recommendations. Such as in the case of Sarah McKinley, an 18 year old mother who called 911 about a break-in. The 911 dispatcher Diane Graham said she couldn’t offer advice on whether she could shoot the man who was pounding on her door. At the time, McKinley was holding a shotgun and pistol after barricading the door to her trailer with a couch. The suspect eventually broke into the house and McKinley fatally shot him.

Yes, this is the ugly truth and it may not suit some people's expectations but that's how the letter of the law is, as it stands.

The two aren't even close to being the same.

rossva
03-24-2012, 10:10 AM
Not just walking past houses, but darting up under porches, and hiding his face when he notices he is being followed.

BBM

#1 Putting the Neighborhood watch thing aside for the moment... He had as much right as you do to ask someone walking past your house why they are there.

#2, Evasion will only raise suspicion... Therefore if you have a stranger asking such things be cautious but don't make things worse by creating more suspicion on yourself.

As I've said before as time goes by everyone is going to learn this was nothing more than an incident cultivated by many missteps and errors on both parties fault that resulted in a young man losing his life.

Belinda
03-24-2012, 10:11 AM
I would like more information on the autopsy. Where did the bullet enter? What angle? Probable distance from shooter? This information hasn't been released, to my knowledge, and I think there is a reason it hasn't been released. I missed a great number of posts due to computer problems, so maybe it has been released and I haven't heard about it.

belle3
03-24-2012, 10:12 AM
i believe the iphone is run on a different operating system and are not android. U can buy an unlocked iphone and insert your sim card and use it. So it is possiblr to have an i phone with tmobile service, you just wont have the same speed and data and yadda yadda. I also believe on the picture of the call log it said something about tmobile to tmobile calling, so i believe he does have tmobile. Correct me if im wrong. would go back and look but busy posting florida law and statutes around this case.

Ironhorse
03-24-2012, 10:14 AM
Well, if this is true than a private citizen should be accountable for their actions just as a police officer who shoots an unarmed innocent citizen would be. But then there is a difference, isn't there, because a police officer can be identified right away and regardless of who you are if they want to question you you must stop and cooperate. TM was under no obligation to this man and TM's right superceded GZ right to pursue him. There paths just did not cross, GZ pursued TM. Big difference. jmo

Yes, a private citizen is equally accountable for their actions just the same as a police officer. But not all police officers wear uniforms and there have been instances where they didn't announce they was an officer and was killed. There is laws already on the books that deal with such instances and whenever such situations occur the defendant is not held responsible for the failure of a Police officer to identify him/herself.

No, a police officer doesn't have the right to just stop anyone and ask them questions. Police officers are governed by specific rules that outline what they can do... Where as a Private citizen is not restrained by such rules, they can ask anyone walking down any street whatever they like. Ever hear of the first Amendment?

Now was Mr. Martin obliged to answer Mr Zimmerman... No! Just because a person ask another a question it doesn't mean you have to answer. However, failure to do so is likely to arouse suspicion depending on the circumstances.

Talina
03-24-2012, 10:15 AM
It's not that I'm laying blame on Mr. Martin but it would be foolish to not recognize that some of his behavior very likely added suspicion to the situation Mr. Zimmerman was confronted with. Does this wash away Mr. Zimmerman's responsibility to conduct himself in a professional manner, no it does not. However given the totality of the situation it does demonstrate how various missteps on both parties fault likely lead to this unfortunate situation...

Again Mr. Martin wasn't some child he was a 17 year old man.

I never referred to my son at the age of 17 as a man. Sure, he was on his way and jokingly I always referred to him as my "man child". But truthfully, that is what he was at the age of 17.

A 17 yr old female is a young woman and a 17 yr old male is a young man. There is a huge difference between being a young woman and a woman, being a young man and a man. The physical, mental, emotional and maturity levels of a 17 yr old are still not fully developed.

To say he is a man suggests, to me, that he is on even level playing field with the 28 year old Mr. Zimmerman and I just don't believe that to be the case.

Can a younger aged person commit "adult" crimes? Yes, they can but that doesn't make them an adult. I bring this up because of a prior post on the previous thread where you mention or ask someone if they have seen a 13 or 14 or whatever age you referenced holding up a convenience store - or whatever examples you gave. That does not make those children grownups.

It is also completely irrelevant to his situation since Trayvon was not committing any crime whatsoever. Nor was GZ even saying on the 911 tape that he thought Trayvon was committing a crime. He just thought he looked suspicious. Based on the conversation the girlfriend has releayed, it is obviousl Trayvon had the same impression of GZ that GZ had of him. GZ was acting suspicious. The difference though is that GZ had a gun to use and Trayvon didn't.

IMO

songline
03-24-2012, 10:16 AM
I am not a fan of Al Sharpton either and often question his motives. However, had this case been handled properly to begin with, it would not have been necessary to have Sharpton involved or rallies or school walk-outs. Sanford PD has brought this on themselves. I don't feel the least bit sorry for them or GZ.

Based on the law I read on the previous thread the LE had nothing to arrest him for.
I also felt LE should have arrested him… but the more I read the clears thing get.
But it is still muddy.

rossva
03-24-2012, 10:17 AM
What you say very well could have happened. It's just as likely that Martin thought he heard Zimmerman utter a racial slur towards him, and swung at him. JMHO.



FWIW - that is exactly what I think too. GZ reached out and grabbed him by the arm and Trayvon swung. I would have too. I don't think Trayvon saw or knew GZ had a gun.JMHO

songline
03-24-2012, 10:18 AM
Tht is what I want to know too...Why did not the boy just run home?
Why did he go to confront GZ???

Yeah, that "boy" was sure asking for trouble. But why not ask GZ why he stalked down and killed the poor fellow?

GREAT POST :fence:

belle3
03-24-2012, 10:19 AM
Not answering questions, is OK but...but but...but...if I was on a phone with Girlfriend who tells him you run... you may consider running home if it was only a short distance away, or telling GF to call for help... or anything other then going to confront the man who is following you...
I would never do that part NEVER.
<modsnip>.
<modsnip> why did gz follow him? he brought a gun to a fist fight. Unfortunately, gz lack of common sense and complete lack of responsibility resulted in the death of an unarmed child. I call him child, because according to fl statute the killing of a human being under the age of 18 is designated the murder of a child.

annalia
03-24-2012, 10:20 AM
<modsnip>

The worse that he, his parents and friend can be made to look, then it makes it not so bad that he was murdered, even if it's all just made up. It's classic victim blaming rationale.

JMHO

Ironhorse
03-24-2012, 10:21 AM
BBM

That is hardly a comparable set of facts.

McKinley was in her own home, alone with her infant son, with an armed intruder ready to break down her door. The operator told her she could not tell her to shoot, but said "you do what you have to do to keep yourself safe".

GZ acknowledged the operator's statement "we don't need you to do that" but proceeded to follow Trayvon anyway. It may not have been illegal to disregard the instruction, but it was flat-out stupid and unnecessary - unlike what Sarah McKinley did to protect herself and her son.

Yes, McKinley was in her own home at the time. However, it would have been no different had she been in her car or setting in the park... And McKinely didn't know the intruder was armed before he come crashing through the door... Unless of course she had X-ray vision and can see through walls.

However, I agree it would have been stupid for Mr. Zimmerman to ignore the request. And we don't know for a fact he did... He may have been tackled by Mr. Martin on his way back to his car... There is a great deal of unknowns surrounding this incident...

belle3
03-24-2012, 10:21 AM
and i really think we should refrain from calling the murder victim <modsnip> because there is certainly no proof or evidence of this. Please. He is someones child that was senselessly killed. A little respect. I am sorry I actually repeated it.

annalia
03-24-2012, 10:23 AM
What you say very well could have happened. It's just as likely that Martin thought he heard Zimmerman utter a racial slur towards him, and swung at him. JMHO.

If this is about what GZ uttered on the phone, there is no way that Trayvon heard any of that. First of all, GZ muttered it under his breath and more importantly they weren't even close to each other at the time.

So GZ would have called him another racial slur as he came up upon him?

If Trayvon heard GZ utter a racial slur then he was obviously defending himself.

Belinda
03-24-2012, 10:23 AM
Based on the law I read on the previous thread the LE had nothing to arrest him for.
I also felt LE should have arrested him… but the more I read the clears thing get.
But it is still muddy.

The only thing clear to me is that no investigation was done, much less an arrest made. They were going to sweep it under the carpet until the public got involved. They have a history of doing this and were going to do it again. Why they felt the need to protect GZ is beyond me, but several suggestions have been made regarding that point. GZ and TM were not treated equally. TM was drug and alcohol tested. GZ was not and he was the shooter. That tells me a lot. There are a lot of things the PD didn't do that they should have. I'm sure GZ was thrilled about the way the PD went about investigating (such as changing witness statements) and thought he was home free. He's not. People are not going to stand for this kind of outrage.

Belinda
03-24-2012, 10:26 AM
Originally Posted by rossva
What you say very well could have happened. It's just as likely that Martin thought he heard Zimmerman utter a racial slur towards him, and swung at him. JMHO.

Even if this is true and TM hit GZ (and I seriously doubt this) that is not justification to shoot someone. What kind of sissy boy is afraid for his life because some kid punched him in the nose for acting like an ass?

LambChop
03-24-2012, 10:27 AM
Tht is what I want to know too...Why did not the boy just run home?
Why did he go to confront GZ???

Where is there evidence TM confronted GZ. From GZ call to LE and TM's gf testimony it was GZ doing the confronting. If someone is following you, catching up to you even though you are walking fast why would you run. TM had no reason to run. He wasn't doing anything wrong.

The moment GZ chose to follow TM it was TM that had more rights than GZ. GZ had no authority to stop and question TM.

For the want of "they aways get away" a life was lost:

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

jmo

rossva
03-24-2012, 10:28 AM
Sort of off topic, but similar. Why, oh why does the media, etc, when trying to make the public aware of a missing person, and current. recent pictures are avaialble, show pictures of that person that are years and years old?

Watching Nancy Grace last night, she was highlighting the case of a missing 15 year old in Santa Clara County, CA, yet she kept running a clip of her as a 6-8 year old in a dance contest. I seriously doubt anyone would id her by those clips.

Makes no sense.





I am immediately calling on ALL MEDIA to stop showing pictures of ANY VICTIM outside of the age that they were when they were deceased! No more showing toddlers as infants! No more showing 10 year olds at 7 years old! No more showing 13-year-olds at 10-years-old. No more showing 16-year-olds at 13-years-old! I demand an immediate STOP to all of it! Only the ages of the child at the age they became deceased are allowed to be shown from here on out!

annalia
03-24-2012, 10:28 AM
Having a right to be in the neighborhood is one thing.
When you feel you are being followed, it is no longer a walk in the neighborhood. HUGE difference.
It is a need to go to safety, or a need for something else.

But so what?

He DID run at first. Then if Trayvon walked fast, thought he could still get away, how does that change anything or make him guilty, or that it proves he was an aggressor?

I really don't get this.

There only one proper way that a victim must use to get way or it's their fault?

songline
03-24-2012, 10:30 AM
Tracy Martin was out for dinner with his girlfriend when Tray was murdered and not home.
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20581404,00.html


That is not a reason for the family not to permit the police to access TM's phone.
Father can be out to dinner and later take a check on his kid.
But IF nobody went looking for the boy until the next day it may shed another light on them. Just wondering...

Adrienne37
03-24-2012, 10:31 AM
Even if this is true and TM hit GZ (and I seriously doubt this) that is not justification to shoot someone. What kind of sissy boy is afraid for his life because some kid punched him in the nose for acting like an ass?

I hope Trayvon got in at least one punch before Zimmerman brutally murdered him and to answer your second question about why type of sissy boy is afraid, ones just like Zimmerman, the ones that think they are billy bada$$ because they are licensed to carry a gun.

It's ridiculous to think that Trayvon would have walked up to Zimmerman and punched him in the nose. Why would a 140 lb kid walk up to a grown man twice his size and proceed to punch him in the face? I believe that about as much as I believe that pigs fly.

Velouria
03-24-2012, 10:31 AM
Yes, McKinley was in her own home at the time. However, it would have been no different had she been in her car or setting in the park... And McKinely didn't know the intruder was armed before he come crashing through the door... Unless of course she had X-ray vision and can see through walls.


Or perhaps Ms. McKinley was gifted with the same rare ability that George Zimmerman possesses - the one that allowed him to know that Trayvon was "on drugs" and "up to no good".

However, I agree it would have been stupid for Mr. Zimmerman to ignore the request. And we don't know for a fact he did... He may have been tackled by Mr. Martin on his way back to his car... There is a great deal of unknowns surrounding this incident...


Did the police report state that GZ claims he was attacked from behind?

belle3
03-24-2012, 10:35 AM
That is not a reason for the family not to permit the police to access TM's phone.
Father can be out to dinner and later take a check on his kid.
But IF nobody went looking for the boy until the next day it may shed another light on them. Just wondering...

I explained a scenario a bit back on this thread as to why they may not have given them access to phone records. But, would that change the fact that TM was killed that night? So I dont reall ysee the relevance. But maybe im missing something.

Belinda
03-24-2012, 10:41 AM
Just as we have sat on this board and expressed our outrage, Sharpton and Farrakan have just as much right to go where they wish to express their outrage as well. Again, I'm not a fan of either, but I understand why they have involved themselves in this situation as it appears to be a civil rights violation, among other things. That will bring them out every time.

Ironhorse
03-24-2012, 10:42 AM
Or perhaps Ms. McKinley was gifted with the same rare ability that George Zimmerman possesses - the one that allowed him to know that Trayvon was "on drugs" and "up to no good".

You know very well I can't answer that...


Did the police report state that GZ claims he was attacked from behind?

None of that has been made public... Rhetoric & hearsay is much of what people are basing their conclusions on. I'm doing no such thing I've repeatedly said there is a lot that's unknown about this incident.

annalia
03-24-2012, 10:44 AM
That is not a reason for the family not to permit the police to access TM's phone.
Father can be out to dinner and later take a check on his kid.
But IF nobody went looking for the boy until the next day it may shed another light on them. Just wondering...

Actually, if you read the entire article, it gives a lot of insight into what the father was thinking and doing that night.

I can't find anything sinister in the father's actions, nothing.

The family disputes police claims, others have come out and disuputed police claims. It's the SPD that has the history of coverups.

JMHO

belle3
03-24-2012, 10:44 AM
<modsnip>

I am really more interested in the facts surrounding this case, or the lack thereof. I believe the laws can help us decipher this. My reading of the florida law and statutes really do not help zimmerman as much as people may think. Just read them. He really wasnt justified in this killing. an argument can be made for second degree murder or manslaughter. The stand your ground and self defense laws are really not looking good for him either. Unless there is other evidence that we havent seen. wich is why a very full and thorough investigation is needed

songline
03-24-2012, 10:44 AM
Its possible that tm was a punk kid that approached the man that was following him, but using that same logic, why did gz follow him? he brought a gun to a fist fight. Unfortunately, gz lack of common sense and complete lack of responsibility resulted in the death of an unarmed child. I call him child, because according to fl statute the killing of a human being under the age of 18 is designated the murder of a child.

I do not think that a neighborhood watchman should carry a gun at all.
JMHO
I don’t think that GZ was out to kill anyone either.
I do think there was a string of mistakes here by all concerned.

I dont think that calling in Al Sharpton is the right call.

rossva
03-24-2012, 10:44 AM
In my post I said:

Originally Posted by rossva
What you say very well could have happened. It's just as likely that Martin thought he heard Zimmerman utter a racial slur towards him, and swung at him. JMHO

I never said that Zimmermnan did so,

If this is about what GZ uttered on the phone, there is no way that Trayvon heard any of that. First of all, GZ muttered it under his breath and more importantly they weren't even close to each other at the time.

So GZ would have called him another racial slur as he came up upon him?

If Trayvon heard GZ utter a racial slur then he was obviously defending himself.

annalia
03-24-2012, 10:47 AM
In my post I said:

Originally Posted by rossva
What you say very well could have happened. It's just as likely that Martin thought he heard Zimmerman utter a racial slur towards him, and swung at him. JMHO

I never said that Zimmermnan did so,

But the same thing would apply to, it's all ok that a grown adult chases down a young kid with a loaded weapon, because GZ "THOUGHT" that Trayvon was up to no good.

Trayvon would have "THOUGHT" that his life was in danger.

rossva
03-24-2012, 10:48 AM
That would be the attack that started the altercation. For all we know, Martin could have knocked Zimmerman down with a strike, and wrapped his hands around Zimmerman's throat. I have never said tha Martin punched Zimmerman once, causing Zimmerman to shoot him.


Orlando's channel 9 did a computer reenactment of what could have happened. It is here:

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/trayvon-martin-shooting-reenactment-animation/vGfcS/



Even if this is true and TM hit GZ (and I seriously doubt this) that is not justification to shoot someone. What kind of sissy boy is afraid for his life because some kid punched him in the nose for acting like an ass?

LambChop
03-24-2012, 10:48 AM
That is not a reason for the family not to permit the police to access TM's phone.
Father can be out to dinner and later take a check on his kid.
But IF nobody went looking for the boy until the next day it may shed another light on them. Just wondering...

On the other hand if you have a child who is respectful and never has given you a problem, plus they have provided the child with a phone in case of an emergency, why would they think he was in danger if they did not hear from him. They assumed he went out with his uncle and they went to bed. I think it is fairly common that a child who has never gotten into trouble, who acts in a responsible manner would be trusted to call them if he was having a problem. The fact TM made a call to 911 clearly shows he felt threatened.

Reports so far show TM to have been very responsible from a very early age so I imagine his father assumed he was with someone he trusted. By morning he was concerned. At some point you let your child have more and more responsibility for their behavior once they've reached that age before becoming an adult. You don't wait until their 18 to prepare them to become an adult.

I find it interesting that focus would be on the parents of the victim and questioning their actions. They have already proven their son had done nothing wrong. jmo

Adrienne37
03-24-2012, 10:49 AM
I mean really is there anyway we can not talk about him in this thread. I am really more interested in the facts surrounding this case, or the lack thereof. I believe the laws can help us decipher this. My reading of the florida law and statutes really do not help zimmerman as much as people may think. Just read them. He really wasnt justified in this killing. an argument can be made for second degree murder or manslaughter. The stand your ground and self defense laws are really not looking good for him either. Unless there is other evidence that we havent seen. wich is why a very full and thorough investigation is needed

Thank you for pouring over them. I haven't read the statutes but I would say very much that the moment Zimmerman stepped out of his vehicle with his loaded weapon to pursue Trayvon that the premeditation was there to charge him with first degree murder. Because of that as well as the victim's age, he would thereby qualify for the death penalty.

songline
03-24-2012, 10:49 AM
and i really think we should refrain from calling the murder victim a punk because there is certainly no proof or evidence of this. Please. He is someones child that was senselessly killed. A little respect. I am sorry I actually repeated it.

I did not mean any disrespect. I started out all agains GZ but The more I read the more I bang my head....
I have changed my vies since the start of this case.

How would you propose we address the POSSIBILITY that WHAT IF? (not saying he did)
WHAT IF TM walked over to GZ and started with some lip service, just to get him off his back.?

annalia
03-24-2012, 10:52 AM
I mean really is there anyway we can not talk about him in this thread. I am really more interested in the facts surrounding this case, or the lack thereof. I believe the laws can help us decipher this. My reading of the florida law and statutes really do not help zimmerman as much as people may think. Just read them. He really wasnt justified in this killing. an argument can be made for second degree murder or manslaughter. The stand your ground and self defense laws are really not looking good for him either. Unless there is other evidence that we havent seen. wich is why a very full and thorough investigation is needed

This is what many so legal experts are saying as well. Not all of course but the majority, even the ones that supported the SYG bill.

And the point has always been, especially with the family, that it wasn't for the police on the scene to be the judge and jury. It's up to the courts, after being presented with ALL the evidence, to decide.

But that's not what happened here. SPD thought, in my opinion, that this must have been just another punk kid up to no good, case closed. they never expected it to get this big. They pretty much told people that night what a great guy GZ was.

JMHO

belle3
03-24-2012, 10:53 AM
I did not mean any disrespect. I started out all agains GZ but The more I read the more I bang my head....
I have changed my vies since the start of this case.

How would you propose we address the POSSIBILITY that WHAT IF? (not saying he did)
WHAT IF TM walked over to GZ and started with some lip service, just to get him off his back.?
Well If that happened, according to the law, verbal threats are not cause to believe that you are about to face serious bodily harm or death. So Zimmermans response to the lip service would not have been in proportion. Therefore it is murder. allimo

Angels_Not_Forgotten
03-24-2012, 10:53 AM
<modsnip>
Thank you. I found it offensive that the VICTIM, A child without a gun, was murdered. TM has No record but there is plenty of proof that GZ has had multiple run ins with the law. And yet people are slandering the child?

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

Adrienne37
03-24-2012, 10:54 AM
I did not mean any disrespect. I started out all agains GZ but The more I read the more I bang my head....
I have changed my vies since the start of this case.

How would you propose we address the POSSIBILITY that WHAT IF? (not saying he did)
WHAT IF TM walked over to GZ and started with some lip service, just to get him off his back.?

Trayvon giving some "lip service" to Zimmerman means that it's alright to pull out his gun and brutally murder him? Again, just more and more ways to blame the victim when the blame clearly lies on the shoulders of not only Zimmerman but the Sanford Police Department as well.

songline
03-24-2012, 10:55 AM
This is just not true.

Unless we're saying that Al Sharpton was there the night of the murder it doesn't change the facts of that night.

There haven't been any riots, he didn't call for any riots. He went to that one rally. The parents have attorneys, seem like very capable attorneys, they've been their spokespeople.

He's being made into the major player here when he's not. It's just a distraction. It doesn't change the facts of the case.

JMHO

I do not agree.
Sharpton is never at the sceen, and never just someone on the case.
He is always about the race card.

belle3
03-24-2012, 10:58 AM
having a family in le and being so familiar with the process, I would think that if gz had some proof to back up his claims he would have kept them or offered them up. Like photos of injuries, the clothing he wore that day, etc. Even if the pd told him he didnt need to. Wouldnt you want proof to cya in case the family of the man you shot in self defense was to claim that that is not what happened? just asking some questions aloud?

songline
03-24-2012, 11:02 AM
Actually, if you read the entire article, it gives a lot of insight into what the father was thinking and doing that night.

I can't find anything sinister in the father's actions, nothing.

The family disputes police claims, others have come out and disuputed police claims. It's the SPD that has the history of coverups.

JMHO

I am not suggesting anything sinister..
A poster wanted to know why the police could not access the details of that phon.
SO I said WHAT IFFFFF? there are no calls on that phone from parents looking for the boy the night he went missing? That may not look good.
That was a question, not an accusation.

annalia
03-24-2012, 11:05 AM
Not just walking past houses, but darting up under porches, and hiding his face when he notices he is being followed.

BBM

Now it's porches? When did it become plural?

belle3
03-24-2012, 11:06 AM
It does not make him guilty.
but if he gave GZ any attitude IF IF IF
That would only escalate things.
Thaen it is no longer him just runing home.

the escalation of things could certainly have happened, and TM could certainly have said something or even done something to escalate the situation, but gz went into a situation that was neither unlawful or in the process of any altercation happening and his gun was discharged resulting inthe death of a child. That is a homicide. Whats left to be determined is the type of homicide. This killing, in my reviewing of the law does not fall under stand your ground, the castle, doctrine, or justifiable homicide.

Ironhorse
03-24-2012, 11:09 AM
Well If that happened, according to the law, verbal threats are not cause to believe that you are about to face serious bodily harm or death. So Zimmermans response to the lip service would not have been in proportion. Therefore it is murder. allimo

True a verbal threat in itself doesn't constitute the use of deadly force... However if it's used in combination with an aggressive move it might very well be cause enough... A lot depends upon the totality of all the circumstances. One doesn't have to wait until a weapon is produced to exercise deadly force... If a person shouting at you saying their going to kill you and they act as if they've got a weapon in their pocket and go to reach for it. You have ever reason to believe they're going to make good on that threat.

songline
03-24-2012, 11:09 AM
On the other hand if you have a child who is respectful and never has given you a problem, plus they have provided the child with a phone in case of an emergency, why would they think he was in danger if they did not hear from him. They assumed he went out with his uncle and they went to bed. I think it is fairly common that a child who has never gotten into trouble, who acts in a responsible manner would be trusted to call them if he was having a problem. The fact TM made a call to 911 clearly shows he felt threatened.

Reports so far show TM to have been very responsible from a very early age so I imagine his father assumed he was with someone he trusted. By morning he was concerned. At some point you let your child have more and more responsibility for their behavior once they've reached that age before becoming an adult. You don't wait until their 18 to prepare them to become an adult.

I find it interesting that focus would be on the parents of the victim and questioning their actions. They have already proven their son had done nothing wrong. jmo

Good children are also checked on... Before I go to sleep I like to know where my kids are. I do not assume anything.

AGAIN: Why not let the police look at phone records???? WHY

rossva
03-24-2012, 11:12 AM
""I had gone out for dinner," says Tracy, "and when I got home, Trayvon wasn't there. I tried calling his cell phone several times, and it went straight to voicemail. I wasn't that worried, because he had been spending time with my 20-year-old nephew who was a responsible young man. There wasn't a panic that he wasn't at home. I figured that they had gone to the movies, because they had said they might. So I laid down, thinking they would show up later."

Once the calls were not returned, and Trayvon did not return home, Tracy said the next morning he started to get worried

Read more: http://globalgrind.com/node/828905#ixzz1q2zTHxtf

http://globalgrind.com/news/trayvon-martin-shot-geroge-zimmerman-parents-speak-out-re-live-final-hours-details


There ya go, quote and link, so I guess it was true.



Where is the link stating that Trayvon's father did not look for him? (Hint: it doesn't exist because it ain't true)

Belinda
03-24-2012, 11:15 AM
That would be the attack that started the altercation. For all we know, Martin could have knocked Zimmerman down with a strike, and wrapped his hands around Zimmerman's throat. I have never said tha Martin punched Zimmerman once, causing Zimmerman to shoot him.


Orlando's channel 9 did a computer reenactment of what could have happened. It is here:

http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/trayvon-martin-shooting-reenactment-animation/vGfcS/

Then where is the hospital injury report if he was almost strangled to death? Oh, that's right, there isn't one.

songline
03-24-2012, 11:17 AM
Trayvon giving some "lip service" to Zimmerman means that it's alright to pull out his gun and brutally murder him? Again, just more and more ways to blame the victim when the blame clearly lies on the shoulders of not only Zimmerman but the Sanford Police Department as well.


Absolutely not, I don't even believe that neighborhood watchmen should carry a gun.
But it does mean that instead of running home like his GF told him to do he just escalated the situation.

This case is a mess.

Adrienne37
03-24-2012, 11:20 AM
Absolutely not, I don't even believe that neighborhood watchmen should carry a gun.
But it does mean that instead of running home like his GF told him to do he just escalated the situation.

This case is a mess.

But why? He had just as much right to "stand his ground" as Zimmerman did.

Velouria
03-24-2012, 11:22 AM
""I had gone out for dinner," says Tracy, "and when I got home, Trayvon wasn't there. I tried calling his cell phone several times, and it went straight to voicemail. I wasn't that worried, because he had been spending time with my 20-year-old nephew who was a responsible young man. There wasn't a panic that he wasn't at home. I figured that they had gone to the movies, because they had said they might. So I laid down, thinking they would show up later."

Once the calls were not returned, and Trayvon did not return home, Tracy said the next morning he started to get worried

Read more: http://globalgrind.com/node/828905#ixzz1q2zTHxtf

http://globalgrind.com/news/trayvon-martin-shot-geroge-zimmerman-parents-speak-out-re-live-final-hours-details


There ya go, quote and link, so I guess it was true.



The next morning, when he woke up, Tracy realized that Trayvon had not returned home. "I started making calls, and I reached my nephew," Martin says. "He said he hadn't seen Trayvon. Then I really started getting worried. So I called the Sheriff's department to file a missing persons report. I let them know it hadn't been 24 hours, but it was unusual for Trayvon not to return home."

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20581404,00.html

And I guess you accidentally left out the part where the dad fell asleep. But then that wouldn't give the appearance that he just didn't care enough to look.

songline
03-24-2012, 11:22 AM
the escalation of things could certainly have happened, and TM could certainly have said something or even done something to escalate the situation, but gz went into a situation that was neither unlawful or in the process of any altercation happening and his gun was discharged resulting inthe death of a child. That is a homicide. Whats left to be determined is the type of homicide. This killing, in my reviewing of the law does not fall under stand your ground, the castle, doctrine, or justifiable homicide.

I agree.
We do not shoot people.
IF IF IF
GZ had to shoot for some reason.
He could have shot the boy in the leg so he can’t escape.
Even when one has to shoot, they need to be accountable.

belle3
03-24-2012, 11:22 AM
True a verbal threat in itself doesn't constitute the use of deadly force... However if it's used in combination with an aggressive move it might very well be cause enough... A lot depends upon the totality of all the circumstances. One doesn't have to wait until a weapon is produced to exercise deadly force... If a person shouting at you saying their going to kill you and they act as if they've got a weapon in their pocket and go to reach for it. You have ever reason to believe they're going to make good on that threat.
But there is no proof that TM was yelling im going to kill you! The only thing we know is that someone was yelling help. and in the situation it can be said it was either one of them. But gz was possibly defending himself from fists from a teenager with a loaded firearm That is still disproportionate. If he was unsure of what tm was carrying then his duty was to call the police and not enter into a confrontation that led to the death of a child.

LambChop
03-24-2012, 11:23 AM
""I had gone out for dinner," says Tracy, "and when I got home, Trayvon wasn't there. I tried calling his cell phone several times, and it went straight to voicemail. I wasn't that worried, because he had been spending time with my 20-year-old nephew who was a responsible young man. There wasn't a panic that he wasn't at home. I figured that they had gone to the movies, because they had said they might. So I laid down, thinking they would show up later."

Once the calls were not returned, and Trayvon did not return home, Tracy said the next morning he started to get worried

Read more: http://globalgrind.com/node/828905#ixzz1q2zTHxtf

http://globalgrind.com/news/trayvon-martin-shot-geroge-zimmerman-parents-speak-out-re-live-final-hours-details


There ya go, quote and link, so I guess it was true.

Thanks for that link, Rossva. And had he been to the movies TM's father would have expected his son's phone would have been turned off. jmo

annalia
03-24-2012, 11:24 AM
Good children are also checked on... Before I go to sleep I like to know where my kids are. I do not assume anything.

AGAIN: Why not let the police look at phone records???? WHY

my bolding

Hasn't that been disputed by the parents? Haven't others disputed what SPD was trying to claim?

OK so according to you, the victim's parents don't meet the proper standards, does that make Tray's murder ok? What exact relation does that have to do with Tray being gunned down? Does them not acting as some think they were supposed to act, or they should ahev realized faster that something was wrong, are they suspect?

I read that article and honestly I don't see where anything bad regarding Tray's father, nothing. Can you point it out?

songline
03-24-2012, 11:25 AM
""I had gone out for dinner," says Tracy, "and when I got home, Trayvon wasn't there. I tried calling his cell phone several times, and it went straight to voicemail. I wasn't that worried, because he had been spending time with my 20-year-old nephew who was a responsible young man. There wasn't a panic that he wasn't at home. I figured that they had gone to the movies, because they had said they might. So I laid down, thinking they would show up later."

Once the calls were not returned, and Trayvon did not return home, Tracy said the next morning he started to get worried

Read more: http://globalgrind.com/node/828905#ixzz1q2zTHxtf

http://globalgrind.com/news/trayvon-martin-shot-geroge-zimmerman-parents-speak-out-re-live-final-hours-details


There ya go, quote and link, so I guess it was true.
The next morning he started to worry...
OK that would not happen in my house...
I would be up by 3AM looking for my kids.

rossva
03-24-2012, 11:27 AM
1) We do not know what medical reports do or do not exist.

2) Zimmerman used deadly force in self defense to prevent this from happening.

3) My post says "Martin could have ". I did not state as fact this is what happened.

Then where is the hospital injury report if he was almost strangled to death? Oh, that's right, there isn't one.

songline
03-24-2012, 11:28 AM
But why? He had just as much right to "stand his ground" as Zimmerman did.

Just one difference. while they both had a right to a public street.
WHEN YOU think someone is followiing you, you act with caution,
Why not get your self home? Like GF told him to?

belle3
03-24-2012, 11:29 AM
Absolutely not, I don't even believe that neighborhood watchmen should carry a gun.
But it does mean that instead of running home like his GF told him to do he just escalated the situation.

This case is a mess.

Wasnt tm on his way home? I dont think we can assume that he wasnt on his way back home when the confrontation happened. Maybe he was trying to lose gz. Who knows. Thats why thorough police investigations are necessary. This PD really has sooooooo much explaining to do!

songline
03-24-2012, 11:31 AM
my bolding

Hasn't that been disputed by the parents? Haven't others disputed what SPD was trying to claim?

OK so according to you, the victim's parents don't meet the proper standards, does that make Tray's murder ok? What exact relation does that have to do with Tray being gunned down? Does them not acting as some think they were supposed to act, or they should ahev realized faster that something was wrong, are they suspect?

I read that article and honestly I don't see where anything bad regarding Tray's father, nothing. Can you point it out?
The reply was not about being gunned down.
It was about WHY NOT LET THE POLICE ACCESS THE PHONE?
My reply was about-what if it wont make the parent look good?


Nobody should be gunned down.
I don’t even like neighborhood watch men to have a gun.

rossva
03-24-2012, 11:32 AM
Nope. IMO, The fact he fell asleep would bolster the claim he just didn't care enough to look.

But, you asked for a quote and a link that showed Tracy Martin did not look for Trayvon Martin. I provided both. You didn't ask for excuses why he didn't.


I want to be clear here. I was answering your request for the quote and link. Whether or not Tracy Martin did or did not look for is son is totally irrelevant to this case. I am not blaming Tracy Martin in any way, shape or form for the death of his son.


http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20581404,00.html

And I guess you accidentally left out the part where the dad fell asleep. But then that wouldn't give the appearance that he just didn't care enough to look.

LambChop
03-24-2012, 11:32 AM
But there is no proof that TM was yelling im going to kill you! The only thing we know is that someone was yelling help. and in the situation it can be said it was either one of them. But gz was possibly defending himself from fists from a teenager with a loaded firearm That is still disproportionate. If he was unsure of what tm was carrying then his duty was to call the police and not enter into a confrontation that led to the death of a child.

Plus the fact that as a full grown adult who grew up in a household with a judge and a clerk of the court he was fully aware this was a law enforcement matter. Having been through LE training for four months and a member of their local Neighborhood Watch program GZ knew his duty ended with calling 911 and all he was required to do was wait for LE to arrive at the scene. He ignored all that training and put everyone's safety aside, including his own to promote his own agenda.

GZ is the only one who identified TM as suspicious and he accelerated the confrontation by following. No just cause for him to do so because he knew better. His justification for following was "they always get away" as he admitted on the 911 tape. He had already decided TM was guilty in his mind. In GZ's mind he had already concluded that TM was a suspect of a crime he had no evidence was ever committed. jmo

annalia
03-24-2012, 11:34 AM
Jus one difference. while they both had a right to a public street.
WHEN YOU think someone is followiing you, you act with caution,
Why not get your self home? Like GF told him to?

Walking faster doesn't fall under acting with caution?

Funny, earlier on Trayvon was accussed of acting suspiciouly becasue he DID run away the first time when GZ was still in his car, then he was accused of acting suspiciosuly for putting up his hoodie, now he's being accused for not getting away from this adult stalker fast enough.

The victim here escalated the situation because he didn't run fast enough to get away from his chaser. I can honestly say that I've never heard that on any case that I've followed.

songline
03-24-2012, 11:37 AM
Walking faster doesn't fall under acting with caution?

Funny, earlier on Trayvon was accussed of acting suspiciouly becasue he DID run away the first time when GZ was still in his car, then he was accused of acting suspiciosuly for putting up his hoodie, now he's being accused for not getting away from this adult stalker fast enough.

The victim here escalated the situation because he didn't run fast enough to get away from his chaser. I can honestly say that I've never heard that on any case that I've followed.

In one of the links you will find that TM wal coming closer to GZ - maybe just to see who was following him?.
So while TM was walking faster some of the time. It seems it was not the entire story.
I wish he did listen to his GF.

Ironhorse
03-24-2012, 11:39 AM
But there is no proof that TM was yelling im going to kill you! The only thing we know is that someone was yelling help. and in the situation it can be said it was either one of them. But gz was possibly defending himself from fists from a teenager with a loaded firearm That is still disproportionate. If he was unsure of what tm was carrying then his duty was to call the police and not enter into a confrontation that led to the death of a child.

True, there is no proof Mr. Martin ever said anything of the sort at least nothing that's ever been made public. I was speaking of verbal threats in general and that of Deadly force. A verbal threat in itself doesn't constitute the use of deadly force. However, if it's used in combination with an act of aggression or implied it might be justify the use of deadly force. It all depends upon the totality of the circumstances.

The courts have recognized that a fist blow well placed can be as deadly as if a weapon had been used. So, disproportionate as it might seem the courts have ruled the use of a weapon in self defense when being struck by a fist can be justified...

See, it all really hinges on the totality of circumstances as to whether something is justified by the reasonable person clause... And since we are not privy to all the info surrounding this Zimmerman/Martin incident we can't say one way or the other.

annalia
03-24-2012, 11:39 AM
So now that some have established that Tray's parents ( who we shouldn't need to remind anyone are the victims here) don't meet the proper standards when it comes to a murdered child, (and I sincerely hope and pray that none of ever have to walk in their shoes,) what real facts of that night does it change?

We've all seen the fact that Tray was a good kid, as opposed to GZ's documented past aggression issues, so because Tray's parents didn't act as some believe they should have, that now makes Tray not a good kid?

JMHO

annalia
03-24-2012, 11:41 AM
In one of the links you will find that TM wal coming closer to GZ - maybe just to see who was following him?.
So while TM was walking faster some of the time. It seems it was not the entire story.
I wish he did listen to his GF.

Trayvon came closer when GZ was in the car, when GZ was first following him his car. It's not a stretch to see that he was probably trying to figure out who it was that was following him.

And again, it was GZ's paranoia that said Tray was checking him out as if Tray was up to no good. Is GZ not smart enough to even consider that if you're the one following a kid that they might take a closer look to see who you are? And then if they don't recognize this stranger following you in their car, they might get scared and run off???

JMHO

LambChop
03-24-2012, 11:41 AM
Nope. IMO, The fact he fell asleep would bolster the claim he just didn't care enough to look.

But, you asked for a quote and a link that showed Tracy Martin did not look for Trayvon Martin. I provided both. You didn't ask for excuses why he didn't.


I want to be clear here. I was answering your request for the quote and link. Whether or not Tracy Martin did or did not look for is son is totally irrelevant to this case. I am not blaming Tracy Martin in any way, shape or form for the death of his son.

Why would he not care if he thought his son went to the movies with a relative. He did try to call and got no answer which you would expect if his son was in a movie theater. Considerate people turn their phones off and this seems to be the type of family in which TM was raised. Respectful and considerate. If you trust your child why would you worry. TM had a phone, if he were in trouble his Dad may have felt Trayvon would have called him.

This was not a child who was looking for trouble which shows his parents DID care about him. Why are we being so critical of the parents? I don't get it. jmo

Belinda
03-24-2012, 11:47 AM
I have been personally impressed by the restraint shown by Trayvon's parents. If it were my daughter, I am afraid I would be unable to behave as well as they have. I would probably be ranting and raving like some maniac. You can see the raw pain in them, yet they just want justice. They seem like very nice people to me.

Adrienne37
03-24-2012, 11:47 AM
There's no reason whatsoever for the police to have not made their rounds at that complex after Trayvon was murdered to attempt to locate someone who knew him. Yet again, this is another ball dropped by the Sanford Police Department. Perhaps on previous trips to the movies Trayvon had spent the night with his cousin so it may have been conceivable that Mr. Martin thought that is exactly what he did. Good grief, these people can't win for losing. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for them.

BiancaS
03-24-2012, 11:50 AM
I don't want to post anything not allowed, but Zimmerman's "friend" FT has a mugshot online for a domestic violence order being violated. Search his name with 2 a's and two f's and you will find it. Not recent, but it is in Seminole County. He obviously is not a stranger to violence.....

songline
03-24-2012, 11:51 AM
Trayvon came closer when GZ was in the car, when GZ was first following him his car. It's not a stretch to see that he was probably trying to figure out who it was that was following him.

And again, it was GZ's paranoia that said Tray was checking him out as if Tray was up to no good. Is GZ not smart enough to even consider that if you're the one following a kid that they might take a closer look to see who you are? And then if they don't recognize this stranger following you in their car, they might get scared and run off???

JMHO

I just would never go checking out anyone who seems to be following me.
I would just get going fast from the start, like GF told him to.
this does not excuse GZ at all. he should not be with gun in pocket.
Locensed or not, you call the cops. If you must shoot you shoot the leg so he cant run. JMO

<modsnip>

songline
03-24-2012, 11:52 AM
Why would he not care if he thought his son went to the movies with a relative. He did try to call and got no answer which you would expect if his son was in a movie theater. Considerate people turn their phones off and this seems to be the type of family in which TM was raised. Respectful and considerate. If you trust your child why would you worry. TM had a phone, if he were in trouble his Dad may have felt Trayvon would have called him.

This was not a child who was looking for trouble which shows his parents DID care about him. Why are we being so critical of the parents? I don't get it. jmo

IF I did not get an answer form a 17 year old I would be calling till I got one.
But never would I go to bed until I got one. At least I would set an alarm to get up and check again

ynotdivein
03-24-2012, 11:53 AM
I am locking this thread up for a few minutes to give you guys a breather.

ynotdivein
03-24-2012, 01:55 PM
This is a victim-friendly forum. That includes everyone who was victimized by this shooting--Trayvon, his family and his girlfriend.

Wild speculations and attempts to assign motive to, question the intent of, or blame the victims in any way must stop now. There will be no further warnings. You will find yourself on a TO and if necessary we will close down the thread.

Stereotyping these players is downright embarrassing. Cut it out.

The constant back and forth between posters is unacceptable. This is not a debate, it's a discussion of the FACTS as we know them. The idea is to discuss possibilities with the information we have, but not start or perpetuate rumors that are not based in any fact.

If another poster makes you anxious or frustrated, that is why we have the ignore feature.

Imagine this is your family and your child when you are not sure what to do and think how you would like your case discussed; you will make the right decision every time.

I'm bumping the opening post.

Please continue here.

Please remember the rules. Please post links where applicable. Also, please be careful with the discussion regarding potential drug use and or racist comments. We don't want to start rumors. The potential drug use has been raised in MSM, but it was the personal opinion of someone that just listened to the 911 tapes, so let's not carry it too far - it is discussable, but keep it in context please.

If you have questions or concerns, please PM a mod and they will give you a hand.

Thanks,

Salem

Thread 1

Thread 2


Media Thread



And please heed Ynot's warning:






Thread 3 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166513)

belle3
03-24-2012, 02:11 PM
peeks head in.........

Adrienne37
03-24-2012, 02:14 PM
Sharpton promises more protests over Fla. shooting

http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/sharpton-promises-more-protests-over-fla-shooting-1.3620996

momshrink
03-24-2012, 02:14 PM
*whispering* is it okay to come back in? Promise I'll be good.

Adrienne37
03-24-2012, 02:15 PM
Trayvon Martin case: New Black Panthers offer $10,000 bounty for capture of George Zimmerman...


http://www.dailyamerican.com/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324,0,7014721.story

belle3
03-24-2012, 02:16 PM
*whispering* is it okay to come back in? Promise I'll be good.

me too :blushing:

Belinda
03-24-2012, 02:16 PM
PHILADELPHIA (AP) — I thought my son would be much older before I had to tell him about the Black Male Code. He's only 12, still sleeping with stuffed animals, still afraid of the dark. But after the Trayvon Martin tragedy, I needed to explain to my child that soon people might be afraid of him.

We were in the car on the way to school when a story about Martin came on the radio. "The guy who killed him should get arrested. The dead guy was unarmed!" my son said after hearing that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman had claimed self-defense in the shooting in Sanford, Fla.

We listened to the rest of the story, describing how Zimmerman had spotted Martin, who was 17, walking home from the store on a rainy night, the hood of his sweatshirt pulled over his head. When it was over, I turned off the radio and told my son about the rules he needs to follow to avoid becoming another Trayvon Martin — a black male who Zimmerman assumed was "suspicious" and "up to no good."

As I explained it, the Code goes like this:

Always pay close attention to your surroundings, son, especially if you are in an affluent neighborhood where black folks are few. Understand that even though you are not a criminal, some people might assume you are, especially if you are wearing certain clothes.

Never argue with police, but protect your dignity and take pride in humility. When confronted by someone with a badge or a gun, do not flee, fight, or put your hands anywhere other than up.

Please don't assume, son, that all white people view you as a threat. America is better than that. Suspicion and bitterness can imprison you. But as a black male, you must go above and beyond to show strangers what type of person you really are.

I was far from alone in laying out these instructions. Across the country this week, parents were talking to their children, especially their black sons, about the Code. It's a talk the black community has passed down for generations, an evolving oral tradition from the days when an errant remark could easily cost black people their job, their freedom, or sometimes their life.

Much more at link:
http://entertainment.verizon.com/news/read.php?id=19013759&ps=1010&srce=news_class&action=5&lang=en&_LT=UNLC_NKNWU00L5_UNEWS

So sad that this must be taught to children.

Adrienne37
03-24-2012, 02:16 PM
Trayvon Martin: New photo, details of George Zimmerman's employment

Two sources have confirmed to the Orlando Sentinel that Zimmerman is, or until recently was, an employee at the Maitland office of Digital Risk, LLC, a mortgage risk-management firm.

http://www.dailyamerican.com/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-job-20120323,0,368034.story

LolaMoon08
03-24-2012, 02:17 PM
I have a lot to do today, so I just want to put something out there. I'm going to take Trayvon's race and his age out of it. With everything we know to date, if Trayvon would have been the son of a Sanford Police officer, would Zimmerman have walked out of that station a free man that night?

If Trayvon was the son of a Sanford Police officer, would there have been this many mistakes that we know of so far? Zimmerman's clothes not being collected as evidence as one?

Another question I have to ask, I believe that Zimmerman would have had to sign a release form from the EMS not to be transported to the hospital that night if he had visible injuries? Actually, a woman who had been in a mild fender bender I had witnesses had to sign a release form from EMS when she chose not to go to the hospital. She had no visible injuries.

annalia
03-24-2012, 02:17 PM
Zimmerman's lawyer: 'Stand your ground' doesn't apply in Trayvon Martin case



A lawyer for the man at the center of the Trayvon Martin death investigation said Florida's "stand your ground" law doesn't apply to the shooting that killed the unarmed teen.
"In my legal opinion, that's not really applicable to this case. The statute on 'stand your ground' is primarily when you're in your house," said Craig Sonner, attorney for George Zimmerman. "This is self-defense, and that's been around for forever -- that you have a right to defend yourself. So the next issue (that) is going to come up is, was he justified in using the amount of force he did?"


http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/24/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html




I think they are going to have a hard time proving self defense also.

I wonder if there is something new that hasn't been released to the public yet that made them drop the stand your ground defense and go for straight self defense?


Perhaps he realizes just how ridiculous it was and it just can't be spun any longer? A change in direction seems to be at work.

Isn't it curious though that police right then and there decided that it was the case?

One of my concerns is that GZ has had quite a bit of time to tweak his account of what happened.

But what concerns me even more is, given what we know about some of the serious past issues with the SPD, and they now are coming under fire again for the same thing, that the PD itself will do some of their own tweaking to cover their own you know what.

I heard the defense attorney speak, most of it is typical defense attorney talk, their clients are always innocent, the salt of the earth.

JMHO

Adrienne37
03-24-2012, 02:18 PM
Trayvon Martin: Zimmerman was not following Neighborhood Watch rules
'There's no reason to carry a gun' director says


http://www.wgnradio.com/news/top/os-trayvon-martin-neighborhood-watch-20120321,0,4132288.story

belle3
03-24-2012, 02:18 PM
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-20120323,0,6326075.story
Trayvon Martin case: George Zimmerman, mystery gunman

LambChop
03-24-2012, 02:19 PM
Trayvon came closer when GZ was in the car, when GZ was first following him his car. It's not a stretch to see that he was probably trying to figure out who it was that was following him.

And again, it was GZ's paranoia that said Tray was checking him out as if Tray was up to no good. Is GZ not smart enough to even consider that if you're the one following a kid that they might take a closer look to see who you are? And then if they don't recognize this stranger following you in their car, they might get scared and run off???

JMHO

Didn't TM stop at the clubhouse under the porch cover because it had started to rain and he pulled up his hood. So isn't it logical that he would walk down the walk from the clubhouse towards the sidewalk and towards GZ in his truck. GZ was still in his truck and at the time was posing no possible threat to TM, IMO. How many times in the paper have we read where a child was abducted by someone driving down the street? TM was not a small child but being fearful of someone you do not know and have no idea why they would be following you is a real fear. Look at all the children on our missing threads, someone took them whether it was a family member or a stranger. It's a real fear for our children today. It was a fear when I was a child. Nothing has changed except it has gotten worse. jmo

belle3
03-24-2012, 02:20 PM
Perhaps he realizes just how ridiculous it was and it just can't be spun any longer? A change in direction seems to be at work.

Isn't it curious though that police right then and there decided that it was the case?

One of my concerns is that GZ has had quite a bit of time to tweak his account of what happened.

But what concerns me even more is, given what we know about some of the serious past issues with the SPD, and they now are coming under fire again for the same thing, that the PD itself will do some of their own tweaking to cover their own you know what.

I heard the defense attorney speak, most of it is typical defense attorney talk, their clients are always innocent, the salt of the earth.

JMHO
But if you read the partial report it seems as if they reported second degree murder unlawful killing. I read that somewhere im sure. So exactly who did decide this was self defense?????

Inabsentia
03-24-2012, 02:22 PM
I did not mean any disrespect. I started out all agains GZ but The more I read the more I bang my head....
I have changed my vies since the start of this case.

How would you propose we address the POSSIBILITY that WHAT IF? (not saying he did)
WHAT IF TM walked over to GZ and started with some lip service, just to get him off his back.?

There is no indication whatsoever that that happened at all. But, even if we assume it did, so what? Should we be given free range to shoot people for rudeness now? My 10 year old gave me some lip service last week. Shockingly, I let her live.

jjenny
03-24-2012, 02:23 PM
Trayvon Martin: New photo, details of George Zimmerman's employment

Two sources have confirmed to the Orlando Sentinel that Zimmerman is, or until recently was, an employee at the Maitland office of Digital Risk, LLC, a mortgage risk-management firm.

http://www.dailyamerican.com/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-job-20120323,0,368034.story

He actually looks better in the new one than his old mugshot.

RANCH
03-24-2012, 02:23 PM
New black panthers offer $10000 bounty for GZ capture. Orlando sentinel.

Here's a link to the article.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-24/news/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324_1_protest-new-black-panthers-sanford-police-department

LolaMoon08
03-24-2012, 02:24 PM
There is no indication whatsoever that that happened at all. But, even if we assume it did, so what? Should we be given free range to shoot people for rudeness now? My 10 year old gave me some lip service last week. Shockingly, I let her live.


:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh: That made me laugh out loud. Thanks!

Adrienne37
03-24-2012, 02:28 PM
There is no indication whatsoever that that happened at all. But, even if we assume it did, so what? Should we be given free range to shoot people for rudeness now? My 10 year old gave me some lip service last week. Shockingly, I let her live.

I have to ask, did she have a hoodie on when she gave you that lip service??

LOL!