Innocent vs. Guilty

[Shamrock]

What are the main things that make you think Darlie is innocent or guilty? I'll post mine (innocent) later tonight or tomorrow when I have more time. Can't wait to read everyone's opinions!

[Jeana (DP)]

I'll need to add to this, but briefly:


My No. 1 reason is that I know the prosecutor - Toby Shook.

The others are in no particular order of importance:
No evidence of a break in;
No scent of anyone leaving the house;
Darlie's 16 different versions of what happened;
Darlie's lies on the witness stand;
Darin's lies on the witness stand;
Darlie's family keeping those lies going until recently;
No evidence of any intruder(s);
The knife in the butcher block;
The blood cleaned off the couch;
The blood/absence of blood in the kitchen sink area;
The baby bottle returned to an upright position in the sink;
The broken wine glass - no blood;
Two attacks on Devon;
The sock with Darlie's DNA and the boys' blood;
No motive for an intruder to target the boys first;
The difference in wounds of Darlie versus the boys;

I've got to think for a minute, but this gives you someplace to start.

Now you - why is she innocent?

[peggy]

What are the main things that make you think Darlie is innocent or guilty? I'll post mine (innocent) later tonight or tomorrow when I have more time. Can't wait to read everyone's opinions!

Here is a simple reply - she was convicted so by definition she is guilty. I lost interest in the case at that point, but before she was convicted, no doubt in my mind she was guilty.
Or maybe you are saying she was wrongly convicted?

[Jeana (DP)]

Peggy, I think that's exactly what Shamrock is getting at. We'd love for you to stick around and post with us if your interest should return!!!

[WindChime]

Hi everyone shamrock please stick around and joy us :-) I believe that Darlie is guilty, but I also believe the Darin was involved in some way. They tryed to make a big deal out of the black car well the police started that black car and had everyone out of the car and if they would of been the one's who killed the boys and tryed to "kille Darlie" with the amount of blood in that house they would of had blood on them the police sent them on their way. Why is it with Darlie's last applea she want's the blood tested on Darins jeans it's like she is ever so slowly letting us know that Darin was involved. No one had a reason to come into that home and kill those 2 precious boys yet they didn't kill the main witnesses who would of been testifying against them. I do not believe they were murdered as a money motive I believe Darlie and Darin got into a fight and with her being on diet pills I do know they can change your mood in a heart beat and she went in a rage Darin had upset her or hurt her and she snapped and took it out on the ones Darin loved most his son's and then I believe he started covering for her because he worshiped the ground she walked on. JMHO

[smellsarat]

Hey Guys and Hi Jeana!!! I have read a couple of books on Darlies' case....and am just now watching AGAIN the ctv special on the case.....which brings me here...Often wondered if she did it due to postpatrum from the birth of Drake..seems to be a growing problem...and having suffered postpartum myself I know that it can with lack of sleep make you feel very starnge and unlike yourself!!!! Have you given any thought to that theory??? And what about the sock down the alley??? Anything new on that??

[Jeana (DP)]

I'm sure that Darlie was suffering from some sort of hormonal changes post baby delivery. I don't know if it rose to the level of actual depression. Considering all of the other factors in her life at the time, she was under a tremendous amount of stress. I'm sure that insomnia because of the diet pills, waking during the night to take care of Drake and the emotional stress of being in financial trouble, having marital problems and being stranded at home every day because she had no vehicle all contributed to her feelings of hopelessness that caused her to consider suicide shortly before the murders. (wow, how's that for a run-on sentence). :angel:

[smellsarat]

I'm sure that Darlie was suffering from some sort of hormonal changes post baby delivery. I don't know if it rose to the level of actual depression. Considering all of the other factors in her life at the time, she was under a tremendous amount of stress. I'm sure that insomnia because of the diet pills, waking during the night to take care of Drake and the emotional stress of being in financial trouble, having marital problems and being stranded at home every day because she had no vehicle all contributed to her feelings of hopelessness that caused her to consider suicide shortly before the murders. (wow, how's that for a run-on sentence). :angel:
Hey Jeana sweetie..Happy Turkey Day by the way!!!
What up with Texas anyway??? Seems to be an overabundance of women going off the deep end in your neck of the woods...( Andrea Yates)...., the latest the woman who cut off her babys' arms???? Any thoughts on why ?? Sumthin' in the water...maybe a little oil mixed in...????:(

[dasgal]

Hi Shamrock,

Wow, we are going to have to make a lot of room for all the reasons I think she is guilty.
Hmm. Where to begin. Let's start at the beginning.

1.Darlie was suffering from post partum depression and was also taking fenphen for weight loss and paxel for depression. Combine this with verbal abuse from Darin, no money, late bills, lots of stress, no car, and kids that were driving her nuts.

2. Darlie asked Darin for a separation the night of the murders. They argued. This is documented and agreed on by both parties.

3. The items that Darlie had out while going through a memory lane of sorts: Wedding Dress, legal items, photo album. On it's own, not very damning. In context, very much so.

4.The blood evidence.

5. Her 911 call insisting she had accidentally erased the "intruders" fingerprints by picking up the knife.

6. Her wounds in comparasion with those of the boys.

7. The unyeilding blood evidence supporting her as the only killer.

8. Changing her story (before her conviction) 16 times. To date, she has changed it many other times. (If I ever get a chance to do a compelation of that as well, I will)

9. Evidence at the scene is contrast with her story(s). Much of the evidence is very damning ie: wine glass w/her blood underneath, blood trails,
her blood where it shouldn't be, her DNA found inside a sock, her boys blood outside.

10. Her lack of concern when seeing Damon dead.

11. Her bizzare dispostion regarding the deaths of both children.

12. The answering machine message that said, "Don't believe what the media says" before the media was saying anything.

13. Changing from "fighting" to "frightening" when she couldn't explain how she couldn't describe someone who was kneeling on her waving a knife in her face.

14. The screen fragments on a knife found in the home.

15. The lack of any stolen property.

16. No theft or sexual assualt. Guy(s) just break in and beat mothers arms and stab children to death?

17. The broken and closed back gate through which the "intruder was said to have left.

18. The cut screen, which didn't need to be cut, had no stretching or fray which would be needed to explain a large man exiting that small area.

19. The arm bruising that mysteriously appears some days after the assaults.

20. Her unreleased lie detector test

21. Her documented hystronic tendencies.

22. Her poor me supporter writings. (you have to see these to believe em!)

23. All appeals have been turned down.

24. No new evidence has been released.

25. All new evidence she says she has is "secret".

26. Her latest appeals seem to throw Darin into suspicion, but wisely she does so with the greatest caution, and then tells supporters that it was not her idea but her lawyers.

There is tons and tons more. But that is all I can think of at this moment.

[Jeana (DP)]

Hey Jeana sweetie..Happy Turkey Day by the way!!!
What up with Texas anyway??? Seems to be an overabundance of women going off the deep end in your neck of the woods...( Andrea Yates)...., the latest the woman who cut off her babys' arms???? Any thoughts on why ?? Sumthin' in the water...maybe a little oil mixed in...????:(

I wish I knew. Texas is a big state with a large population, so its possible we have our proportionate share - but it sure does seem like we've got a lot of these type of cases. Could be that our "mental" health system is seriously flawed. I mean, Andrea Yates was found competent to stand trial, with her long history of mental illness. Then, this recent woman who bashed in the heads of her children was found not guilty by reason of insanity with absolutely NO history of mental illess.

The woman who just cut off the arms of her 10 month old baby obviously had a history of mental illness, so it could go either way. While I'm so seriously "f"ing sick of hearing about murdered children and parents with excuses, if there's a history of mental illness the person needs to be in a hospital, not on death row.

[smellsarat]

Hey Dasgal...a portion of your post screamed out at me!!!

"1.Darlie was suffering from post partum depression and was also taking fenphen for weight loss and paxel for depression. Combine this with verbal abuse from Darin, no money, late bills, lots of stress, no car, and kids that were driving her nuts."


Aha...I didn't know that....I've often thought drugs are really a major factor in depressed people taking a plunge into violent behavior......
Jeffrey MacDonald I think is a prime example as are the Columbine killers....Don't get me wrong I am a big believer in chemical drug help for those suffering from mental illness...But I am well aware that due to the unknown factor in taking these drugs...often it is anyones guess which way a subject will go...either better or far worse.....it is a crapshoot in some cases and the lack of overseeing these people by Drs...some whom have really no great knowledge of the very drugs they prescribe , can be deadly!!!
In Darlies case I find the mixing of two drugs..one only recently prescribed ...fix that..both only recently introduced into the market...you have a situation that is an accident waiting to happpen!!!!
The rise in depression in this country and the lack of Psychopharmacolgists to treat them in a knowledgable manner has contributed greatly to the resulting violence.

Just my take...

[smellsarat]

I wish I knew. Texas is a big state with a large population, so its possible we have our proportionate share - but it sure does seem like we've got a lot of these type of cases. Could be that our "mental" health system is seriously flawed. I mean, Andrea Yates was found competent to stand trial, with her long history of mental illness. Then, this recent woman who bashed in the heads of her children was found not guilty by reason of insanity with absolutely NO history of mental illess.

The woman who just cut off the arms of her 10 month old baby obviously had a history of mental illness, so it could go either way. While I'm so seriously "f"ing sick of hearing about murdered children and parents with excuses, if there's a history of mental illness the person needs to be in a hospital, not on death row.I agree wholeheartedly with that!!!!I really think the govmnt needs to become more involved in mental health...years ago it was much better for these folks..but since deinstitutionalization it has gone downhill..This is one area I do favor Govmnt intervention...much like the Kennedys push for help for the mentally retarded.......The growing problem of depression...which I have had my own opinions as to why for over 20 years....has contributed to a colossal problem that is threatening the future of this country.

By the way I have said it again and again... And 20 years ago I predicted this very problem growing.... think the reason are
#1.chemicals insiduously permeating every aspect of our modern industrialized environment and
#2 poor nutrition.....

[Shamrock]

A few reasons I think Darlie is innocent:

Not enough time for her to commit the crimes and clean up (starting with beginning of 911 call, taking the sock down the alley, etc.)

The severe bruising of her arms - I don't believe this was self-inflicted

The direction of the knife wounds suggests Darlie would have had to switch hands (cut with the right hand, then switch the knife to the left and cut herself again), which I don't believe is reasonable in this case

Darin inquiring just three days before the murders about having someone burglarize the home for the insurance money (was this a burglary attempt gone awry?)

The mysterious black car

The unidentified bloody fingerprint on the table behind the couch

(that's all I can think of right now and I'm in a hurry, I'm sure there's more!)

[lisafremont]

Shamrock, how is it possible that Darlie slept through the attacks on both her sons?

Why did she suffer a different kind of wound than they did?

Why did she change the story of the event so many times?

Why did she pick up the knife and mention it on the 911 call?

Couldn't she have slashed herself just before calling 911? Wouldn't that give her enough time?

Couldn't the bruises have come from a fight with Darin?

[dasgal]

A few reasons I think Darlie is innocent:

Not enough time for her to commit the crimes and clean up (starting with beginning of 911 call, taking the sock down the alley, etc.)

(that's all I can think of right now and I'm in a hurry, I'm sure there's more!)
Hi, I post under Dasgal, Jon Galt, Jongaltlives, and Flaxonmoon. I have been posting on this case for years. To follow, I am pulling old posts of mine as way of rebuttle. (I'm older and lazier now.):)
The following was written not as a literal timeline but to show that Darlie did have ample time to commit the killings, staging, and sock.

Routier Crime Timeline


Author: JonGalt, Apr/12/2002 17:34:10 [-05 EST]

0100 hrs. Darin retires to bed



0150 hrs. Everyone in the home is asleep except for Darlie Routier. During this time she revists photos of herself and the two boys in a photo album. Later it is found that the book was open, and blood deposited on these pictures during the attacks. Darlie arms herself with a knife.



0151 hrs. Darlie stabs Damon Routier in her first attack. During this attack, she stabs herself in her own right arm. She stabs Damon with wound one and two.



0155 hrs. Darlie stabs Devon Routier who has stirred awake and risen during his brother’s attack. He is stabbed the first time, stabbers face to his front. Wound number one is the first one delivered. Wound number 2 is delivered as Devon is face up on the carpet, most likely dying, with the attacker at his head, most likely on knees, stabbing downward and accross the torso. NOTE: THIS IS THE ONLY WOUND WHICH THE STABBING IS REVERSED. It is also delivered prior to his actual death.



0156 hrs. Devon is dead.



0158 hrs. Darlie paces and thinks of how to handle this situation. She paces from Devon, the last attack, to the front door. She decides to "clean up" what evidence she can. She goes to the kitchen.



0205 hrs. Darlie begins wetting towels to wash areas of the couch and sink. The ends of said towels are dry, but bloodsmeared, and they were used to dry. She leaves the towels in these approximate areas of the living room as she realizes that she continues to bleed and that she cannot clean more than flat surfaces.



0210 hrs. Darlie sits on the trunk by the front door, removes the socks, and dons the high tops. She sprints out the front door and drops the sock 75 yards away, and returns to the house, where she slips her feet out of the still laced hightops.



0212 hrs. She enters the kitchen, and rinses the knife and tries to cut her throat, but stops due to pain. She then rinses out the sink basin. She uses only one side of sink as the baby bottle is still upright.



0222 hrs. Darlie tips the coffee table and deposits a fairly large amount of blood there.



0225 hrs. Darlie enters the utility room to get the towel she uses for her own wounds. She is bleeding freely in the utility room.



0227 hrs. Darlie holds towel to neck as she cuts screen. She leaves a small amount of blood in the garage.



0230 hrs She notices Damon has left his original attack position, and is crawling or dragging himself towards the door. (During this time he has tried to stand by using a glass top table leaving his print in Darlie's blood) She is winded, and her right arm and neck are cut, but she gets to him before he makes it to the door, laying him flat down, laying down the knife to do so because she needs both hands as the right is weak due to the wound. She picks the knife up again, and delivers wounds (hesitation) one and two. She also delivers wound number four. She then switches hands and delivers stab wound number 3.



0231 hrs. Darlie originates the 911 call. Just before she does so, or during, she lays the knife on counter. Smashes wine glass, knocks lampshade off, and downs vaccuum before Darin can get downstairs. (However lampshade may have been downed during attack on Devon.)



0231.30 hrs. Darin comes downstairs.



0235 hrs. Dog heard barking on 911 tape. Officer enters home at this time. Ok-for this I have used the 911 call, both autopsies, and have relied extensively on the blood map. Naturally, the times are only those I suppose. The purpose of this exercise, as I understand it, is to explain all evidence, using the timeline allowed. I believe that the second attack on Damon is the one that killed him. If we suppose that the final attack happened just before 911 call, there is ample time. I have also used more time than needed during all actions should I need to revise somewhat. My guess is that I will have to do some revision, as I wrote this very spur of the moment.



Evidence included in this exercise:




The bloody fingerprint.



The knife impression.



All stab wounds. Darlie’s wounds. (excluding the bruising which I believe happened later)



The sock.



The mixed blood at sink.



The blood in utility and garage.



The cut screen.



The lack of blood in the backyard or on gate, or in alley.



The kitchen clean up and the wet towels.



The lack of running water or barking dog.



The time of 911 origination.



The table, lamp, vacuum, and wine glass.



The time of Darin coming downstairs.



The time of officer entering home.

[dasgal]

A few reasons I think Darlie is innocent:



The severe bruising of her arms - I don't believe this was self-inflicted



This is a very short part of a very long discussion we are having elsewhere on the net. I can't pull the other people's comments, but here are a few of mine:

Well having shown it to lots of folks in the medical field, there are only two that keep coming back:

1. She nicked the bone and you are seeing a sort of lividity (closed system so I'm told vs. open system as in death or maybe it's the other way around, I can't recall any more).

2. "Wall Bruising"-one extremely hard blow from one large object to another ie: dashboard/torso in car wreck.

But, it definately DOES NOT fit with a beating. I guess that was the point I was trying to make. The only thing that looks like a possible attack to me, and I'm talking about every wound she has, is the restraint bruising on her wrists. But I also theorize that came from a very pissed off Darin.

But at any rate I'M SO GLAD TO SEE YOU!!!!



I guess I need to explain to you why I am saying people say that she couldn't have done it to herself, and then turn around and tell you that she did.

The reason is that every other thing in this case points to her killing those children. Every little tiny thing. And you know I don't take any of this stuff lightly.

So, if she killed the boys as I think she did, then she HAD to produce those bruises on her own. Darin didn't do it because it's just NOT a beating. There are no differing impacts. It is one impact by something large or it's internal bleeding. Period. So how could that happen from an attack? I can't think of one darn thing, but I CAN think of a few ways she could have done it to herself.

Brenda, I've looked at it every way I can think of. I keep asking the question because I'm hoping that I can find another plausible reason they could have happened. It's a piece of the puzzle that just doesn't fit as nicely as I would like.


1100.30 (http://forums.delphiforums.com/guiltyascharged/messages?msg=1100.30) in reply to 1100.27 (http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=guiltyascharged&msg=1100.21#a27) I'll have to send you an e-mail when I get more time. I have a Keno game to go to in just a bit. :-) woohoo Keno!

What were you wondering about the shirt? Maybe I can just repost it.

As for the knife, from what I understand is that you CAN bleed both internally and externally from a stab wound depending on what is hit.
At first when I heard that, due to the way the bruising is on the inner arm, I thought it must have settled that way from having been unconcious. But then I had to rethink that because it's on the inner parts of BOTH arms. Then someone gave me the obvious answer. She was standing, and the internal bleeding went down. Having been stabbed (direction only) outer elbow to inner elbow, that allowed that to happen where and how it did. But then what about the bruising up to the underarms? Seems there was an answer for that too.
Once she laid down in that hospital bed, the blood that had pooled in the inner arm area leveled out. It didn't travel up, it just spread out.
:-)

[dasgal]

A few reasons I think Darlie is innocent:


The direction of the knife wounds suggests Darlie would have had to switch hands (cut with the right hand, then switch the knife to the left and cut herself again), which I don't believe is reasonable in this case



She had to switch arms. She had a stab wound in the right forearm. Also, the bloody imprint of the knife on the carpet supports that she switched hands.

[dasgal]

A few reasons I think Darlie is innocent:



Darin inquiring just three days before the murders about having someone burglarize the home for the insurance money (was this a burglary attempt gone awry?)


Maybe. You have to remember that the only word you have on this is Darin's.
So why then does a burglar enter and steal nothing? Not even jewlery right on the way in? Why does a burglar borrow a knife from the victims kitchen to break in? If he has the knife from the kitchen to cut the screen, hasn't he already BEEN in? Why would a burglar kill two sleeping kids when it's the mother who had the ability to stop and or identify him?

[dasgal]

A few reasons I think Darlie is innocent:



The mysterious black car


(that's all I can think of right now and I'm in a hurry, I'm sure there's more!)

There was no more a black car than there was Laci Peterson walking her dog immediatly before she disappeared. Also, the hundreds of people who called in swearing they saw her were apparently being dishonest.
There is neighborhood hysteria in every case like the Routier case. I'll put it like this:

All the neighbors are standing around talking about the horrible murders. One of the folks say, "I saw this really creep black car about that time". The next one says, "You know, I think I saw that car too just a few days ago". And on and on it goes.

Just for giggles, one day I sat in front of my picture window in my living room and counted the number of black cars that passed in 2 hours.
Twenty Two.
No make or model, just "black". No one sees anyone driving. Does it have tinted windows? What color do you think of when you think of evil or scary. It shouldn't be, but most people's answer is the color black.
I'm not saying these few people who "saw" the "black car" are lying. I'm saying that they probably DID see a black car the week preceeding the murders. But they would have also seen white cars, red cars, silver cars.....

[dasgal]

A few reasons I think Darlie is innocent:



The unidentified bloody fingerprint on the table behind the couch
It did not have enough discernable points. After exhumating both children and removing their hands, it was determined that it was UNLIKELY that the prints belonged to the boys. However, you must also remember that the boys had been removed from a flooded coffin, several years after their murders. Furthermore, people who had been paid by the defense had to rehydrate their fingers to even get a print to begin with. These "experts" then made a determination. I may have missed it, but as I understand it, the documentation of this "scientific process" was never released.

Another defense paid "expert" said that it belonged to a juvenile or young woman, but again, not enough discerable points to make a ruling.

[Dani_T]

It did not have enough discernable points. After exhumating both children and removing their hands, it was determined that it was UNLIKELY that the prints belonged to the boys. However, you must also remember that the boys had been removed from a flooded coffin, several years after their murders. Furthermore, people who had been paid by the defense had to rehydrate their fingers to even get a print to begin with. These "experts" then made a determination. I may have missed it, but as I understand it, the documentation of this "scientific process" was never released.

Another defense paid "expert" said that it belonged to a juvenile or young woman, but again, not enough discerable points to make a ruling.

I think from Jantz's report we can fairly confidently say that the print doesn't appear to have belonged to either of the boys (not only on the basis of the whorl patterns and on ridge and detail comparison between it and the two boys but on comparison between a large sample group of children).

What is interesting about Jantz's report, however, is that
a) the result was that it was twice as likely to have belonged to an adult female than an adult male (which is when Jeff suddenly started saying that an adolescent/teen male had done it)
b) whilst he compared the details/stats of Damon and Devon's print with the blood print he doesn't appear to have done the same with Darlie's print- which begs the question of why the defense didn't jump at the opportunity to exhonerate her by doing so.

Which defense expert said it belonged to a juvenile or young woman?? I know the State's expert (Wertheim) cannot rule out Darlie's ring finger but I thought either one or two experts were hired by the defense and claim that it isn't Darlie's? ( Edit: Just checked and Lohnes compared the bloody print on the table to Darlie's and said it wasn't hers... so there was only one defense expert that has ruled Darlie out)

[lisafremont]

Shamrock:
Why didn't the Routier dog, Domain, a very feisty yappy dog who is said to go nuts if a stranger enters the house, bark that night?

Why would an intruder use a knife from the kitchen?

[lisafremont]

Shamrock, have you read the transcript of Darlie Routier's testimony?

Are you aware of the statements that she made in letters in which she said that she knew who the man was?

[dasgal]

[QUOTE=Dani_T]I think from Jantz's report we can fairly confidently say that
Which defense expert said it belonged to a juvenile or young woman??QUOTE]
Hi Dani,
I was referring to Janzt. I couldn't remember the exact way he said it, just the jist of what he was saying.
As for the guy who supposedly "ruled" it out was one of the two NY cops, but it's not been substatiated.

[Sprocket]

Furthermore, people who had been paid by the defense had to rehydrate their fingers to even get a print to begin with. These "experts" then made a determination. I may have missed it, but as I understand it, the documentation of this "scientific process" was never released.

I'm no expert on this case. Haven't followed it at all. But I have heard about this process, of rehydrating fingers from a dead body to take a print. I'm of the understanding that it IS a valid, forensic method of retrieving prints.

[Jeana (DP)]

I'm no expert on this case. Haven't followed it at all. But I have heard about this process, of rehydrating fingers from a dead body to take a print. I'm of the understanding that it IS a valid, forensic method of retrieving prints.


If you're eating, stop.

They have to remove the hands from the bodies in order to rehydrate them. This means that mom and dad let them dig up those poor babies from their grave and chop them up even more than mom did!

It is a valid method of retrieving prints, but that doesn't mean that it always works. Apparently, (and bear with me because its been a while), but I seem to recall hearing something to the effect of the boys bodies were not in the best condition either because of the length of time they were dead or some other condition that happened to them in the coffin.

Edited to add:

I'm no expert on this, but Dasgal can help us out. There is a chain of command when it comes to these things and if this person who dug the boys up and fingerprinted them acted alone, how can the defense prove the prints are the boys?

[Dani_T]

I've always been a bit confused why they exhumed both boys since they had a fingerprint card for one of them (Devon I think?).

[lisafremont]

I've been reading the transcripts and especially having read Darlie's testimony, I cannot understand why anyone thinks she didn't do it.

[Jeana (DP)]

I've always been a bit confused why they exhumed both boys since they had a fingerprint card for one of them (Devon I think?).


They were buried together in the same coffin.

[Dani_T]

They were buried together in the same coffin.

Oh ok - there you go.

I never knew that.

So the boys funeral and burial in one coffin cost $10 000?

[dasgal]

Hope I can help.

Rehydration works well only under the best conditions.
As it was the boys, who were buried in the same coffin, were at least exposed to cross decomposition, a flooded coffin, and several years before exhumation.
Let me try to explain how this works.
The hands or fingertips, (in this case hands) are removed. The fact that they have been in the ground for a long time makes them shrivel up, and dry, chaff, and flake. This includes the fingertip print.
A year after the almost record breaking Texas heatwave, it rains like crazy. The bodies, what is left, starts to bloat.
(I'm sorry but there is no kind way to explain this).
Cross contamintion means basically mold. Even when a body is preserved, it's only a temporary effect. Combined with the heat and the humidity inside the coffin, mold would grow in a rapid way. Mold eats human flesh. Including what may be left of the fingertips. Strangly though, fingernails continue to grow.
When you exhumate a person for prints, you must remove the fingers or the hands to do so. Basically and non techniqually, you insert moisture back into the musculature using a needle. In this case, I was told that this didn't happen due to the vast decomposion due to the elements. There was a "total emmersion", a technique I am not familiar with, and have no data for.
Supposedly, the fingers, "plumped up" allowing for a print.
I totally doubt that. If they indeed were able to retrieve prints from two badly decomposed bloated, chaffed, contaminted hands, I'd be amazed. Any print that they would have had left after that kind of environmnetal abuse would have been useless.
I have heard the boys have been excluded, but only by defense appealate folks. There is no documentation of any scientic matter to back this up.
Hope that helps.

[txsvicki]

This is a very short part of a very long discussion we are having elsewhere on the net. I can't pull the other people's comments, but here are a few of mine:

Well having shown it to lots of folks in the medical field, there are only two that keep coming back:

1. She nicked the bone and you are seeing a sort of lividity (closed system so I'm told vs. open system as in death or maybe it's the other way around, I can't recall any more).

2. "Wall Bruising"-one extremely hard blow from one large object to another ie: dashboard/torso in car wreck.

But, it definately DOES NOT fit with a beating. I guess that was the point I was trying to make. The only thing that looks like a possible attack to me, and I'm talking about every wound she has, is the restraint bruising on her wrists. But I also theorize that came from a very pissed off Darin.

But at any rate I'M SO GLAD TO SEE YOU!!!!



I guess I need to explain to you why I am saying people say that she couldn't have done it to herself, and then turn around and tell you that she did.

The reason is that every other thing in this case points to her killing those children. Every little tiny thing. And you know I don't take any of this stuff lightly.

So, if she killed the boys as I think she did, then she HAD to produce those bruises on her own. Darin didn't do it because it's just NOT a beating. There are no differing impacts. It is one impact by something large or it's internal bleeding. Period. So how could that happen from an attack? I can't think of one darn thing, but I CAN think of a few ways she could have done it to herself.

Brenda, I've looked at it every way I can think of. I keep asking the question because I'm hoping that I can find another plausible reason they could have happened. It's a piece of the puzzle that just doesn't fit as nicely as I would like.


1100.30 (http://forums.delphiforums.com/guiltyascharged/messages?msg=1100.30) in reply to 1100.27 (http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=guiltyascharged&msg=1100.21#a27) I'll have to send you an e-mail when I get more time. I have a Keno game to go to in just a bit. :-) woohoo Keno!

What were you wondering about the shirt? Maybe I can just repost it.

As for the knife, from what I understand is that you CAN bleed both internally and externally from a stab wound depending on what is hit.
At first when I heard that, due to the way the bruising is on the inner arm, I thought it must have settled that way from having been unconcious. But then I had to rethink that because it's on the inner parts of BOTH arms. Then someone gave me the obvious answer. She was standing, and the internal bleeding went down. Having been stabbed (direction only) outer elbow to inner elbow, that allowed that to happen where and how it did. But then what about the bruising up to the underarms? Seems there was an answer for that too.
Once she laid down in that hospital bed, the blood that had pooled in the inner arm area leveled out. It didn't travel up, it just spread out.
:-)

I agree about the bruise not just being from a beating. There's no visible hand marks or variations. My daughter's creep of a husband once bruised her entire hand and forearm by hitting her with a board or something similar. It didn't bruise all the way up to the underarm area but was one solid bruised area with color variations in the bruising.

[AussieLela]

Mybe this is were Darin comes into it...He could of done them to help her story or he could of done them the night before??

PS Was the other sock ever found??:(

[Jeana (DP)]

Mybe this is were Darin comes into it...He could of done them to help her story or he could of done them the night before??

PS Was the other sock ever found??:(


What other sock? There was a laundry room with at least one basket full of clothing right in the kitchen. I think most of us are of the opinion that she simply plucked one of Darin's socks out of that laundry room and left her underwear in there at the same time.

[smellsarat]

What other sock? There was a laundry room with at least one basket full of clothing right in the kitchen. I think most of us are of the opinion that she simply plucked one of Darin's socks out of that laundry room and left her underwear in there at the same time.
I think she means the match to the alley sock..........

[Jeana (DP)]

I think she means the match to the alley sock..........

I know, I'm just wondering why there needed to be a match in the alley? The sock was just plucked out of the dirty clothes basket in the laundry room. One was all that was needed. They do know that it was Darin's sock and came from the house. That it contained Darlie's DNA and both boys' blood pretty much tells the story of who took it there in my opinion.

[smellsarat]

I know, I'm just wondering why there needed to be a match in the alley? The sock was just plucked out of the dirty clothes basket in the laundry room. One was all that was needed. They do know that it was Darin's sock and came from the house. That it contained Darlie's DNA and both boys' blood pretty much tells the story of who took it there in my opinion.
I didn't know Darlies DNA was on it!!!
But still was the match in the basket????

[lisafremont]

What are the main things that make you think Darlie is innocent or guilty? I'll post mine (innocent) later tonight or tomorrow when I have more time. Can't wait to read everyone's opinions!


Shamrock: You started this interesting thread on which I have posted a series of questions to you and you haven't come back to answer. I wish you would.

[Jeana (DP)]

I didn't know Darlies DNA was on it!!!
But still was the match in the basket????


Yup! Darlie's DNA was in it. I seem to recall that there were several socks in the basket.

[Peake]

Shouldn't Darlie's DNA be in it? Guess I'm not sure on this, after reading a bit on the JBR forum. It seems to be an acceptable explaination that the DNA in JBR's panties could have come from where they were manufactured. I'd think Darlie's would not be unusual since she did the laundry. But then I'd have to wonder why Darin's DNA wasn't found if it was his sock :/

Cheers,
Pea

[Jeana (DP)]

Shouldn't Darlie's DNA be in it? Guess I'm not sure on this, after reading a bit on the JBR forum. It seems to be an acceptable explaination that the DNA in JBR's panties could have come from where they were manufactured. I'd think Darlie's would not be unusual since she did the laundry. But then I'd have to wonder why Darin's DNA wasn't found if it was his sock :/

Cheers,
Pea


Pea, maybe if there was only the sock with the DNA and the blood on it, that would be an acceptable excuse. However, as I've said before, one must look at the evidence in this case in whole. Once you do that, as the jury did, you'll see a clear picture. While it may be possible for transfer DNA to occur during the laundry procedure, I'm not sure that it necessarily MUST occur.

[Peake]

Ah, don't get me wrong, I have looked at more than just the sock. Ignoring the silly string video, other evidence as you point out -- the blood evidence, the difference in the wounds, the screen being cut by a knife from the house -- speak volumes. The angle on her throat wound -- holding a ruler up to my neck as if I was holding a knife to my own throat... same angle. I probably shouldn't have piped up in here until I've had time to review the transcripts more thoroughly -- I don't recall if the ME or other expert had discussed how her wounds might have been delivered.

However I don't see it as proof that it was Darlie that put the sock there just because her DNA was on it. Certainly that she could have, but not that she must have.

Cheers,
Pea

[Jeana (DP)]

Pea, I agree with you.

Toby Shook showed the jury exactly how Darlie could have self-inflicted the neck wounds. From what I hear, it was truly something to see in person!! :clap: He's a brilliant attorney -- had her speechless on the stand. :innocent:

[AussieLela]

I beleive for sure that she put the sock there it's seems to me if there is 1 sock there has to be another.. Just curiouse.........

[AussieLela]

the neck wound even has a little twist at the bottom like a hesitated cut.unfortunatly the boys wounds were definatly not hesitated wounds...:sick:

[KatzHome]

... I also believe the Darin was involved in some way...
I still know all too little about this case ~ but I'm beginning to get a sense of that too...

I really am beginning to think that her sentence should be Life instead of the DP ~ there are too many questions on the website link that Jeana provided ~ and with Life ~ there would be time enough for these questions to be answered.

But as I'm reading through this thread ~ I'm learning stuff....

[Mary456]

"I'd think Darlie's would not be unusual since she did the laundry."

I agree, Peake. Her DNA could have gotten on the sock in any number of ways.

What's really interesting about the sock is that only the boys' blood is on it...none of Darlie's. The intruder theory has fumble fingers accidentally dropping the sock in the alley. Now, he's already slashed & fought with Darlie, blood should be flying everywhere, but not a drop of it lands on the sock. Makes no sense. That's why many people believe Darlie ditched the sock before she cut herself.

[cami]

What are the main things that make you think Darlie is innocent or guilty? I'll post mine (innocent) later tonight or tomorrow when I have more time. Can't wait to read everyone's opinions!

Darlie's initial story.
Blood/lack of blood in the kitchen.
The clean up.
Differences in the injuries to the boys and Darlie.
Darlie's lies about Damon walking and talking.
Darlie lied on the witness stand.
Darin lied on the stand.
The bloody knife imprint in the carpet in the murder room.
Blood in the utility room.
Nothing taken or missing from the home.
the sock.
The knife used to cut the screen.



In memory of the 14 women slain in the Montreal Massacre, Dec. 6/89.