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nursebeeme
03-29-2012, 07:49 AM
New thread for a new day. Please remember the rules


:tos:




When posting an opinion please remember to use IMO or JMO.

:moo:



the crown will present its case in chapters:

Chapter 1: The day of the kidnapping. The surveillance video showing Rafferty driving up the street outside Tori's school and McClintic walking Tori up the street. Witnesses from and around Oliver Stephens public school will talk about seeing Tori.
An identification officer will use photographs and maps to show the route from Woodstock to Guelph.
Tori's mother, Tara McDonald, will testify about the frantic hours the family spent looking for Tori.

Chapter 2: Terri-Lynne McClintic. "She was an essential part of all that happened," Gowdey said. "I expect her credibility will be a major issue in this case."

Chapter 3: Guelph -- video surveillance and bank records detailing the events there.

Chapter 4: the Mount Forest death scene, which the jury will visit. "It will be difficult to go to the very place where this happened, I know that, but understanding the crime scene is crucial to understanding the crime," Gowdey said. Photographs, some of them graphic, will be used to explain "exactly how the killing happened."
"Unfortunately it is only through them that you can fully understand (the) evidence," Gowdey said.

Chapter 5: Police interaction with Rafferty.

Chapter 6: The searches of Rafferty and McClintic's residences and the evidence found.

Chapter 7: The Honda Civic. What was found inside.

Chapter 8: Rafferty's connection to the Mount Forest area.

Chapter 9: Comments Rafferty made to friends after April 8. "He had some interesting things to say to other people about Terri-Lynne McClintic and about the kidnapping itself," Gowdey said.

Chapter 10: The May 15 weekend and Rafferty's actions.

Chapter 11: The BlackBerry. The BlackBerry allowed police to track his movements April 8 and after.

Chapter 12: A recap of the surveillance video.
http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/r.../19463111.html

Salem's warning from last week:
Okay everybody - LISTEN UP! We are not bashing, accusing or blaming Tori's family here. It won't be allowed.
Children walk home from school every day without incident. Parents are not perfect, it's just not possible. Tori's parents DID NOT do this to her. TLM and an accomplice DID. That is where the blame goes.
We had a lot of family bashing in the early parts of this investigation after Tori went missing and a lot of baseless accusations - NONE OF WHICH PROVED TO BE TRUE. Victim and family bashing will not be allowed during this trial.
Thank you,
Salem
---------------------------------
and reposting SoSueMe's warning:
As some of you may have noticed, the members following this case are dropping in numbers. It's disheartening to us because we need and welcome discussion of both sides of every issue on Websleuths.
Zero tolerance means ZERO tolerance. Please discuss this case with respect to your fellow members. Subtle and veiled harassment and/or talking in code about other members will not be tolerated.
A word of caution on the Alerts in this forum. If you alert a post, make sure it is a clear violation of our Terms of Service. A difference of opinion is not a violation of TOS.
Please note that everything discussed in court and printed/tweeted is now within the realm of discussion. WS has never and does not now have a policy of "innocent until proven guilty." That is for the court room. Here, we discuss, speculate, theorize and judge according to the opinions we develop from following the case.
Keeping that in mind, abuse of our alert system is a good way to find yourself in timeout or worse. Abuse of the alert systems includes, but is not limited to:
Alerting repeatedly on the same poster;
Demanding a specific outcome;
Alerting on the same post more than once.
Once you have alerted a post, move on and don't question the decisions of our Administrators, Moderators or Owners.
Following this trial is very important to our members and we're going to see that they have their day in court. The "zero tolerance" policy in this forum will continue and it will be enforced.
Thank you and please carry on.
Sue aka SoSueMe
Websleuths Co-Owner

nursebeeme
03-29-2012, 07:50 AM
I am not sure that there is court today? But this thread is for today either way... :-) Everyone post responsibly please.

Jezbel
03-29-2012, 08:23 AM
Nope no court today, trial resumes tomorrow :)

~n/t~
03-29-2012, 10:11 AM
Good Morning!

http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/01385/w-timson_edited_1385209cl-8.jpg

Confusedashell
03-29-2012, 10:11 AM
<modsnip>

Is there anyone out there that thinks MR is not guilty??

JMO

~n/t~
03-29-2012, 10:15 AM
I wish we knew what the court schedule would be for next week. I'm off work and wanted to take a drive down. I'd like to go on Thursday or Friday. Is there a way to know in advance?

Delaware
03-29-2012, 10:17 AM
<modsnip>
Is there anyone out there that thinks MR is not guilty??

JMO

Is there a way to take a poll? Even anonymously so we can get a sense of how many on the forum think he is guilty vs. how many think he is not?

If we can have a poll, can we also include an option such as guilty of a lesser charge or lesser charges?

Confusedashell
03-29-2012, 10:22 AM
I think the court should take advantage of being ahead of schedule and keep it that way instead of taking days off. Now next week it will only be a three day week because of good friday

Jezbel
03-29-2012, 10:36 AM
I wish we knew what the court schedule would be for next week. I'm off work and wanted to take a drive down. I'd like to go on Thursday or Friday. Is there a way to know in advance?

Well don't go Friday, it's Good Friday = no court ;)

If you wanted to take a drive down I would plan for Thursday maybe, I am sure we will hear tomorrow the schedule for next week though.

I went once, first day of TLM's testimony.

~n/t~
03-29-2012, 10:38 AM
Well don't go Friday, it's Good Friday = no court ;)

If you wanted to take a drive down I would plan for Thursday maybe, I am sure we will hear tomorrow the schedule for next week though.

I went once, first day of TLM's testimony.

Thanks for the reminder. I forgot it was good Friday!! Duh!

I'd have to leave Wednesday night...sleepover and attend Thursday, if court will be in session.

Jezbel
03-29-2012, 10:48 AM
Thanks for the reminder. I forgot it was good Friday!! Duh!

I'd have to leave Wednesday night...sleepover and attend Thursday, if court will be in session.

They will probably be going out to Mt Forest some point son too, but I think they should advise of next week's schedule tomorrow, then you can plan your trip. If you plan on going to the main courtroom, get there fairly early but if you don't mind sitting in the overflow room, it doesn't matter as you can go in and out of there anytime.

JayFriend
03-29-2012, 11:41 AM
I think the court should take advantage of being ahead of schedule and keep it that way instead of taking days off. Now next week it will only be a three day week because of good friday
I believe the reason for no court today (Thursday) is that the judge has a previous commitment. Also, the proceedings are going faster than anticipated and scheduled. Expert witnesses have been booked according to the schedule, who cannot bring their appearances forward because of their own schedules.

Oldsoul2
03-29-2012, 11:46 AM
Well don't go Friday, it's Good Friday = no court ;)

If you wanted to take a drive down I would plan for Thursday maybe, I am sure we will hear tomorrow the schedule for next week though.

I went once, first day of TLM's testimony.

Did you sit in the overflow room or in the main room? I can't remember if you posted here on that day, MR's demeanor, TLMs demeanor

snoofer
03-29-2012, 12:10 PM
Whenever I see that quote referred to from MTR's facebook (Good things are coming my way) I think of dear dear Dr. Phil's quote, "So how are things working out for you now my friend?"

Ardy
03-29-2012, 12:14 PM
<modsnip>

Is there anyone out there that thinks MR is not guilty??

JMO

I am not sure it matters a whole lot what I think, but based on the evidence presented thus far, and the theory that was intimated during TLM's cross examination, I believe I can conclude MR is guilty of some crimes..............such as hiding evidence, failing to report a crime........but do not have the same confidence in the main charges..........................yet.

snoofer
03-29-2012, 12:19 PM
I am not sure it matters a whole lot what I think, but based on the evidence presented thus far, and the theory that was intimated during TLM's cross examination, I believe I can conclude MR is guilty of some crimes..............such as hiding evidence, failing to report a crime........but do not have the same confidence in the main charges..........................yet.

Yes I feel pretty much the same as you Ardy. I lean more towards the full story of the crown but still lots up in the air ...so far.:twocents:

And although I am not totally convinced yet of all the suggestions from the crown about MTR...I would not like to have tea with him as he is up to his arse in drug dealings and has horrible friends not to mention zero respect for the well being of a child.

Jezbel
03-29-2012, 12:24 PM
Did you sit in the overflow room or in the main room? I can't remember if you posted here on that day, MR's demeanor, TLMs demeanor

I was in the overflow room, court that day was busier than it had been so far, even the overflow room got full, at one point people sitting on the floor. I think everyone wanted to be there for the first day of TLMís testimony.

I canít say much about her demeanour because you really canít see her, there is one camera that gives an overhead of the courtroom, so you canít really see faces, listening to her though, well, she sounded high at points, she spoke very slowly, long pauses in between, even when the crown first started questioning her and it was about her childhood and where she grew up, at some points she had to ask the crown to repeat the question. She cried and whimpered a lot, it was really hard to hear her at times, she did sound believable on the stand though. The other camera sits right in front of the prisoner box so you can see MTR close up, the majority of the time he was looking directly at her, through most of her testimony, with what could be a scowl on his face. He shook his head a lot when TLM was answering questions about the events of that day and also he took a lot of notes. At one point it looked as though he mouthed the word Ďbulls**tĒ but I cannot be sure. He did look weary at point, taking off his glasses and rubbing his eyes.

Honestly though, he looked angry and cold hearted sitting there, I did not see any type of empathetic, remorseful, sorry, sad etc emotion from him. Maybe he was concentrating intently on what TLM was saying then taking notes to show his lawyer, maybe that would explain it. The whole overflow room basically gasped when TLM admitted that she was the one, some got up and had to leave, some were crying, even while TLM was talking about the assault the public there was having a hard time listening, I thought maybe MTR would show some sadness but I didnít see it.

This is all JMO from being that day, I plan to go again at some point.

nursebeeme
03-29-2012, 12:45 PM
Is there a way to take a poll? Even anonymously so we can get a sense of how many on the forum think he is guilty vs. how many think he is not?

If we can have a poll, can we also include an option such as guilty of a lesser charge or lesser charges?

due to the limited publication ban we cannot do that at this time. However, if the jury is sequestered during deliberations that may be a good time to do one while we are on verdict watch

Ardy
03-29-2012, 12:46 PM
Thanks Jezebel..........that was a very well written and insightful post.

I think cameras should be allowed in our courtrooms, because the sound of voices, the demeanor of witnesses, the nuances of questioning,.........much of the atmosphere the jury is witnessing is lost when the trial is reported by a jumble of tweets.........or the end of day reporting.

As we have noted here............reporters listening to the same testimony are printing differing facts in their stories.

Thanks for attending.........on behalf of everyone who wants justice for Tori.

sillybilly
03-29-2012, 12:47 PM
Whenever I see that quote referred to from MTR's facebook (Good things are coming my way) I think of dear dear Dr. Phil's quote, "So how are things working out for you now my friend?"

Tiny correction ... he actually spelled the word "comming". Could be a typo or his spelling is lousy ?? I've toyed with the idea that it could possibly have been a reference to the internet.

I've also thought it was possibly related to the fact that he would be obtaining drugs that day ... but it seems that obtaining drugs was a frequent occurrence in his life, so i doubt it was worthy of a special mention on that particular day. IIRC, that statement was made shortly after he had been driving around a school in the morning.

Anyone else recall if MTR's normal communications contained spelling errors?

nobodyzgirl
03-29-2012, 12:52 PM
due to the limited publication ban we cannot do that at this time. However, if the jury is sequestered during deliberations that may be a good time to do one while we are on verdict watch

The jury will be sequestered during deliberations.

Confusedashell
03-29-2012, 01:18 PM
The jury will be sequestered during deliberations.

sorry for all the questions but what does sequestered mean? can someone please explain this too me.

Jezbel
03-29-2012, 01:24 PM
Thanks Jezebel..........that was a very well written and insightful post.

I think cameras should be allowed in our courtrooms, because the sound of voices, the demeanor of witnesses, the nuances of questioning,.........much of the atmosphere the jury is witnessing is lost when the trial is reported by a jumble of tweets.........or the end of day reporting.

As we have noted here............reporters listening to the same testimony are printing differing facts in their stories.

Thanks for attending.........on behalf of everyone who wants justice for Tori.

You are very welcome Adry. I canít do anything to help bring her back but I sure can sit and make myself listen to her story and the tragic ending of her life no matter how hard. Itís the least I can do for a child who deserved so much more. :(

I went because I wanted to see and hear for myself TLM testify to the events of that day, like you said to get a better understanding of how she spoke, how MTR reacted etc, it definitely is a different feeling then reading the tweets. The testimony goes back and forth a lot (well it did that day) so I can see how hard it is to get the information through in a tweet.

I tried to keep an open mind on this case, and hope to see some sort of remorse from MTR, but I didnít, he just looked mean and menacing, maybe it was because TLM was testifying, when I go again I will see if his demeanour is different at all. If the juryís sees what I saw on the stand, it is not the look of an innocent man and that is one of the things that keeps me from believing the defence theory.

JMO

nursebeeme
03-29-2012, 01:27 PM
sorry for all the questions but what does sequestered mean? can someone please explain this too me.

it means that they will be put in "seclusion" from the media, newspapers, etc during their deliberations (most likely in a hotel) to keep them from being unduly influenced while they are reaching a verdict. (typically in the US there will be guards, etc as well.... even their computer use, etc is monitored)

hope that helps :-)

JayFriend
03-29-2012, 01:30 PM
Definition of sequestered jury:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sequester

So, here's some further questions:

Is this jury sequestered all throughout the trial, or may they go home at night, days off and weekends?

I imagine serving on a jury, especially in a long, high profile case as this, is quite a commitment. What are jurors paid? Are they paid per day or per hour? How does it compare with minimum wage? Who would be willing to give up a decent paying job or career to three months to serve on a jury and maybe return to find their weren't really missed and have no job security?

Confusedashell
03-29-2012, 01:35 PM
Definition of sequestered jury:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sequester

So, here's some further questions:

Is this jury sequestered all throughout the trial, or may they go home at night, days off and weekends?

I imagine serving on a jury, especially in a long, high profile case as this, is quite a commitment. What are jurors paid? Are they paid per day or per hour? How does it compare with minimum wage? Who would be willing to give up a decent paying job or career to three months to serve on a jury and maybe return to find their weren't really missed and have no job security?

I don't think they had a choice if they wanted to sit on the jury or not. From what I heard and have been told it is around 50 bucks a day and once it goes past 20 days it is up to 100. I think don't quote me on that but I remember reading something about it. JMO. I would think they are allowed to go home but I have also heard that sometimes Jurors are held in a motel room throughout the whole thing. That would be very costly so I am assuming it is just for deliberations. I would not want to sit on this jury that is forsure. I know myself I am confused by everything so far I can't imagine what their mind is like. But on the other hand they get to see everything for face value where we just hear and like someone said before we just hear what the reporters want us to hear.
JMO

nursebeeme
03-29-2012, 01:45 PM
Jayfriend, they are not currently sequestered (they will only be sequestered for deliberations)

nettie_82
03-29-2012, 01:56 PM
Definition of sequestered jury:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sequester

So, here's some further questions:

Is this jury sequestered all throughout the trial, or may they go home at night, days off and weekends?

I imagine serving on a jury, especially in a long, high profile case as this, is quite a commitment. What are jurors paid? Are they paid per day or per hour? How does it compare with minimum wage? Who would be willing to give up a decent paying job or career to three months to serve on a jury and maybe return to find their weren't really missed and have no job security?


"Well itís always a matter of finding jurors who care bear the burden of a four to five month commitment. Not all employers give jurors time off, or paid time off, and so for any small business owner it would destroy their business. You're just trying to find that person who has the time to spend in a jury trial, and then the other consideration is to find that person who is not bias."

Jurors in the trial will get 40 dollars a day that will go up to 100 dollars a day past the 25th day. Normally, jurors in the province are paid 40 dollars a day if they sit longer than 10 days, and from day 50 on they get 100 dollars a day.

http://www.fm96.com/channels/newsinfo/localnews/Story.aspx?ID=1661995

nettie_82
03-29-2012, 02:00 PM
Can an employer actually fire an employee because they have been chosen to sit on a jury though? I am confused by this "Not all employers give jurors time off, or paid time off, and so for any small business owner it would destroy their business."

Alethea Dice
03-29-2012, 02:22 PM
Can an employer actually fire an employee because they have been chosen to sit on a jury though? I am confused by this "Not all employers give jurors time off, or paid time off, and so for any small business owner it would destroy their business."

They can't fire you, but they don't have to pay you.

ēEmployers are required by law to allow employees time off for jury duty.
ēThe law does not require employers to pay salary for employees summoned for jury duty, although some employers do. Speak with your employer to determine if they have a policy to pay people absent from work for jury duty.

http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/courts/jury/general_jury_duty_info.asp

nettie_82
03-29-2012, 02:23 PM
They can't fire you, but they don't have to pay you.

Thank you, I didn't think they could but was confused by the wording in that article.

nobodyzgirl
03-29-2012, 02:38 PM
Definition of sequestered jury:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sequester

So, here's some further questions:

Is this jury sequestered all throughout the trial, or may they go home at night, days off and weekends?

I imagine serving on a jury, especially in a long, high profile case as this, is quite a commitment. What are jurors paid? Are they paid per day or per hour? How does it compare with minimum wage? Who would be willing to give up a decent paying job or career to three months to serve on a jury and maybe return to find their weren't really missed and have no job security?

It is my understanding in Canada that a jury does not get sequestered during a trial as it causes undue hardship on the juror, the only time they get sequestered is during deliberations.

Jurors are paid per day, and it is not very much. The longer the trial the more money they receive. I know there was an article at the beginning of this trial saying what these jurors are being paid. I will see if I can find the article to link.

I know where I work, they would still give me my full pay though deduct what I am receiving from the court. Most companies understand the obligation of having to serve on a jury, so I don't think the majority of people are concerned about losing their jobs because they can't fire you for being on a jury. I would think the days the jury is not sitting, they probably go to work that day.

JayFriend
03-29-2012, 02:48 PM
Can an employer actually fire an employee because they have been chosen to sit on a jury though? I am confused by this "Not all employers give jurors time off, or paid time off, and so for any small business owner it would destroy their business."

Of course they can't legally fire someone (unless it's a temp agency job or they're still on a 90-day probationary period, when no reason has to be given). However, if an employer can get by without you for 3 months, how secure is your job? I guess a more familiar situation would be maternity or parental leave.

Confusedashell
03-29-2012, 03:00 PM
everyone is pretty quiet today!!! do we know who is on stand tomorrow?

greenthumb
03-29-2012, 05:45 PM
Can an employer actually fire an employee because they have been chosen to sit on a jury though? I am confused by this "Not all employers give jurors time off, or paid time off, and so for any small business owner it would destroy their business."

This is a confusing statment - and I wonder if the writer combined two separate thoughts into one - I don't see how employers giving time off is related to a small business owner's business being destroyed by serving on a jury.

But I can provide more info regarding the latter portion of the statement. My DH & I run a small business. He's been summoned for jury duty three times now - and each time, we have been under contract for a large project with time constrictions - so he's applied to be excused from his obligation to serve due to the hardship it would impose on our business. Thank goodness, the judges seem to recognize that serving on jury duty actually could destroy a small business - if either my DH or I were unavailable for any length of time, we would soon be in big trouble since there is no one else who can step in to our roles... and so those who depend on us for their livelihood would suffer, as well as us. Maybe in retirement, we can do our civic duty :)

jolady
03-29-2012, 06:10 PM
I attended a funeral today and burial. Coincidentally, the burial was at the cemetery where Victoria Stafford is buried. I said a prayer and left a coin which seems to be what people are doing. It sure made all of this more real for me. I prayed for justice.

nettie_82
03-29-2012, 07:01 PM
everyone is pretty quiet today!!! do we know who is on stand tomorrow?

Not sure who is all taking the stand, but it is supposed to be a busy day. HOPEFULLY, by later tomorrow we have some answers to some questions that have been floating around here i.e forensic evidence found at crime scene and on Tori's remains.

JayFriend
03-29-2012, 07:17 PM
My DH & I run a small business. He's been summoned for jury duty three times now - and each time, we have been under contract for a large project with time constrictions - so he's applied to be excused from his obligation to serve due to the hardship it would impose on our business.
Why is it that folks who can't afford or don't want to serve are called multiple times? In the 50-odd years I've been eligible, I've only once received a letter saying I was on a list and that was the end of it. :waiting: Lots of people I know have been on juries more than once.

~n/t~
03-29-2012, 07:22 PM
everyone is pretty quiet today!!! do we know who is on stand tomorrow?

forensic expert.

snoofer
03-29-2012, 07:40 PM
I attended a funeral today and burial. Coincidentally, the burial was at the cemetery where Victoria Stafford is buried. I said a prayer and left a coin which seems to be what people are doing. It sure made all of this more real for me. I prayed for justice.

for what is the coin?

LilyMacBloom
03-29-2012, 08:08 PM
Ladies and Gents: If tomorrow is what they say it will be, you will have to excuse me.

I simply can not follow the words "tweet by tweet"

I find that I have to digest the cruel details filtered through the news outlets

Please accept my sincere thanks for the links, the tweets, the maps et al as I truly do appreciate all of your efforts and opinions, but, I can only absorb so much, on any one given day.

Thanks to the mods for having the dedication everyday.

I can not imagine how the family and friends of ANY party finds the strength.

God Bless Tori its been a long haul to justice.

dar107
03-29-2012, 08:16 PM
Will the court announce what day the jury will be going to Mount Forest? I thought maybe they would keep this quiet so they don't have news helicopters flying overhead, do they rope the area off and keep spectators away?

And is MR allowed to attend, I would think his lawyer would be there for sure? Does anyone here know how they go about organizing this?

flipflop
03-29-2012, 08:20 PM
Will the court announce what day the jury will be going to Mount Forest? I thought maybe they would keep this quiet so they don't have news helicopters flying overhead, do they rope the area off and keep spectators away?

And is MR allowed to attend, I would think his lawyer would be there for sure? Does anyone here know how they go about organizing this?

JMO, I believe this "field trip" location would be treated like the court room. The jury will be shown where things happened, where people walked, stood, where VS was buried under the rocks etc etc etc. Im thinking the only ones allowed up that laneway on the day of the visit will be the jury, the crown and the defense.

Will MR attend....hmmm would be interesting to see his reaction while at the site if he did, but I doubt he would go.

~n/t~
03-29-2012, 08:29 PM
Will the court announce what day the jury will be going to Mount Forest? I thought maybe they would keep this quiet so they don't have news helicopters flying overhead, do they rope the area off and keep spectators away?

And is MR allowed to attend, I would think his lawyer would be there for sure? Does anyone here know how they go about organizing this?

Not sure if it's ever been done in a Canadian case so I can't really say how it works here. My understanding from following other cases, (UK and USA)the judge does announce when the jury will visit the crime scene. The Judge, the prosecution and defense team are present. The accused may want to go along and it is his right to be there.

As for media presence, I don't think the Judge can stop the media from reporting but I'm sure many roads will be blocked and they may have to report from a distance. Not sure about helicopters. HTH

Confusedashell
03-29-2012, 08:31 PM
Will the court announce what day the jury will be going to Mount Forest? I thought maybe they would keep this quiet so they don't have news helicopters flying overhead, do they rope the area off and keep spectators away?

And is MR allowed to attend, I would think his lawyer would be there for sure? Does anyone here know how they go about organizing this?
I was thinking the same thing. Will they want to keep it quiet so they don't have a whole bunch of spectators. Right now they have a gate up at the entrance way so no one can get in. The Mennonite that lives there is pretty strict on who he will let on his property anymore. The gate is covered with purple flowers. If it wasn't for the purple flowers there is no way the public would know where it is, unless someone told them the fire number.

dar107
03-29-2012, 08:33 PM
JMO, I believe this "field trip" location would be treated like the court room. The jury will be shown where things happened, where people walked, stood, where VS was buried under the rocks etc etc etc. Im thinking the only ones allowed up that laneway on the day of the visit will be the jury, the crown and the defense.

Will MR attend....hmmm would be interesting to see his reaction while at the site if he did.

Thanks, trying to find a case where the jury was taken to the crime scene in Canada, not having much luck. I found one where they were taken to a prison which was the crime scene.

Link: http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/Jury-to-have-unique-field-trip-137925948.html

The judge, crown, defence and jury attended, and they also allowed a handful of reporters to attend. I am thinking that MR will not be attending.

dar107
03-29-2012, 08:41 PM
The jury in the Shafia murder trial were also taken to the canal where the murder happened. No accused attended this either.

Snip:

"The 12 jurors arrived in a small bus at about 9:30 a.m., followed by another bus with the judge, Crown attorneys, defence lawyers and court staff.

The jurors were allowed to move freely around the area to get a context for the evidence they've been seeing and hearing in court since last Thursday."

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/sunnews/canada/archives/2011/10/20111027-142103.html

flipflop
03-29-2012, 08:45 PM
I was thinking the same thing. Will they want to keep it quiet so they don't have a whole bunch of spectators. Right now they have a gate up at the entrance way so no one can get in. The Mennonite that lives there is pretty strict on who he will let on his property anymore. The gate is covered with purple flowers. If it wasn't for the purple flowers there is no way the public would know where it is, unless someone told them the fire number.

earlier in the week when I drove down that road, there was no gate across the end of the lane....actually it was last weekend when I drove by there.

Also the general public has seen this area and was given the location on the news, in the newspapers, not hard to find with google earth.

jolady
03-29-2012, 08:48 PM
for what is the coin?

You are not really allowed to put things around the tombstone. It is actually not a very nice cemetery. Just my opinion. I like the oldfashioned ones with interesting headstones. Most of it is flat headstones but there is a small section where you are allowed regular upright headstones. She has a beautiful one with her picture etched into a heart. It is lovely. They have strict rules about flowers. Flowers are only allowed on Mother's Day, Father's Day and Easter. There is a small ledge where the headstone rests on a piece of stone. (Sorry not explaining it well, didn't think it was appropriate to take a picture). Anyway, on this ledge people have left pennies, nickels, quarters. I don't really know why but there were quite a few, just on the ledge in the open. So I said a prayer and left one as well.
JUST FOUND THIS EXPLANATION:Like flowers, toys and stuffed animals, coins are a common sight at cemeteries. Placing coins on headstones is an old tradition with several different meanings, from remembering the dead to making wishes.
Charon

In Greek mythology, a deceased person is required to pay Charon, the boatman, to be ferried across the River Styx to Hades.
Remembrance

According to Memorials.com, people place coins on headstones "as a reminder that the individual is not forgotten."
Navy

People in the Navy put coins on graves to speed "the soul's trip to heaven," according to a letter on a Vietnam veterans website.
Wishes

According to the Official Donnelly website, the Donnelly family will grant wishes to people who leave coins on its family headstones.
Jewish Tradition

According to Jewish tradition, leaving a coin on a headstone signifies that a headstone has been visited.

~n/t~
03-29-2012, 09:03 PM
http://image2.findagrave.com/photos/2012/77/37334263_133210092328.jpg

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=37334263&PIpi=57178793


:rose:

nettie_82
03-29-2012, 09:04 PM
For those who want to see Tori's Headstone...here is a photo of it.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=37334263&PIpi=57178793

nettie_82
03-29-2012, 09:09 PM
It will be interesting to see if Rodney addresses the media tomorrow at court. He has not said much within the last week, I think the only thing he did say to the media, they decided they wouldn't publish according to a tweet by the LFpress.

~n/t~
03-29-2012, 09:22 PM
It will be interesting to see if Rodney addresses the media tomorrow at court. He has not said much within the last week, I think the only thing he did say to the media, they decided they wouldn't publish according to a tweet by the LFpress.

I think it will become increasingly more difficult for him to say what he really wants to say because of the publication ban.

nettie_82
03-29-2012, 09:27 PM
I think it will become increasingly more difficult for him to say what he really wants to say because of the publication ban.

I have to agree. I was surprised he was speaking as much as he did in the first couple weeks.

roseofsharon
03-29-2012, 09:32 PM
For those who want to see Tori's Headstone...here is a photo of it.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=37334263&PIpi=57178793

This is so beautiful! RIP precious Tori.

Wondergirl
03-29-2012, 10:02 PM
Thank-you to those who posted the link to Tori's beautiful gravestone. I especially like the beautiful picture of her, and how they tranposed her signature onto her stone.

If I were able to travel to her gravestone, I would leave 2 coins, according to the tradition of Wish Fulfillment.

1 Coin would be to wish for the fulfillment of justice in Victoria's death.

1 Coin would be to wish for some sort of peace for Victoria's precious family.

Rest in peace, little one.

http://www.worldesigns.com/photo/pewter/newangel2.jpg

http://www.worldesigns.com/photo/pewter/newangel2.jpg

http://www.worldesigns.com/photo/pewter/newangel2.jpg


Wish Fulfillment


Legend states that dropping a coin on a headstone or grave of someone will cause those buried there to either grant a wish or assist in fulfilling a wish.


Read more: Why Are There Coins on Headstones? | eHow.com (http://www.ehow.com/facts_5867353_there-coins-headstones_.html#ixzz1qYrxXWke) http://www.ehow.com/facts_5867353_there-coins-headstones_.html#ixzz1qYrxXWke

Ardy
03-29-2012, 10:42 PM
You just can't look at that picture and not have emotions flooding in...........

Profound sadness, grief, anger, frustration............are all there.

You have to wonder how it is possible the two accused could feel none of those emotions.

Since TLM's testimony, demon possession seems much less of a wildly abstract concept than it used to.

It is the only way I can gather any measure of sense to the tragedy, and that isn't a completely satisfying answer either.

Maybe physical brain damage or impairment..........but both of them?

If it is possible to hurt and neglect animals to such a point they fight back in a mindless manner, I suppose it is possible for a human being to have such horrid background and life experiences, that they become devoid of feeling and emotion themselves and rely on the same animal survival response themselves...........but both of them?

When I read some of TLM's testimony, especially about what the words and phrases she attributed to MR during the alleged rape (which really seem extraordinarily bizarre in an already bizarre scenario)...................it sounds almost like she is recounting something that happened to her as a child.

This is especially true when she described MR sitting on the front seat of his car, naked from the waist down. That paints such a surreal picture, that it made me wonder if she wasn't describing a scene from her own past, rather than the reality of what really happened.

Truthfully I hope it was a fantasy in her head, because otherwise we have to believe that 2 people filled with such evil, managing to meet up with each in a country with 30 million people, and mutually plot this horrendous act.

The thought of 1 person like that is too much, but 2 people is almost too much to contemplate.

Hopefully, the forensic examinations will produce evidence that one side or the other cannot deny.

But, we will still be left wondering.........why.

flipflop
03-29-2012, 10:52 PM
You just can't look at that picture and not have emotions flooding in...........

Profound sadness, grief, anger, frustration............are all there.

You have to wonder how it is possible the two accused could feel none of those emotions.

Since TLM's testimony, demon possession seems much less of a wildly abstract concept than it used to.

It is the only way I can gather any measure of sense to the tragedy, and that isn't a completely satisfying answer either.

Maybe physical brain damage or impairment..........but both of them?

If it is possible to hurt and neglect animals to such a point they fight back in a mindless manner, I suppose it is possible for a human being to have such horrid background and life experiences, that they become devoid of feeling and emotion themselves and rely on the same animal survival response themselves...........but both of them?

When I read some of TLM's testimony, especially about what the words and phrases she attributed to MR during the alleged rape (which really seem extraordinarily bizarre in an already bizarre scenario)...................it sounds almost like she is recounting something that happened to her as a child.

This is especially true when she described MR sitting on the front seat of his car, naked from the waist down. That paints such a surreal picture, that it made me wonder if she wasn't describing a scene from her own past, rather than the reality of what really happened.

Truthfully I hope it was a fantasy in her head, because otherwise we have to believe that 2 people filled with such evil, managing to meet up with each in a country with 30 million people, and mutually plot this horrendous act.

The thought of 1 person like that is too much, but 2 people is almost too much to contemplate.

Hopefully, the forensic examinations will produce evidence that one side or the other cannot deny.

But, we will still be left wondering.........why.

Very interesting thought Ardy, I had never thought about it that way. This is a very good possibility, especially when TLM stated in court that when she walked away, she couldn't go back to stop him as she just froze as flashbacks came back from her childhood...(not word for word, but TLM said something along this line)

swedie
03-29-2012, 11:24 PM
http://image2.findagrave.com/photos/2012/77/37334263_133210092328.jpg

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=37334263&PIpi=57178793


:rose:

Thank you n/t for the picture. I have seen the video of RS at the cemetery with a reporter. So sad for any parent to have to visit their child that way. Sorry cannot locate that video right now.

I've wondered if the visit to that location in Mount Forest will be April 6th, two day before the day Tori was abducted three years ago. April 8th falls on a Sunday this year. I guess it would be classified as the third year anniversary, but to me anniversary sounds like something to celebrate and this is definitely not something to celebrate.:moo:

Eternal peace Victoria. You will never be forgotten. Justice is slow but looking hopeful little one.

antiquegirl
03-29-2012, 11:45 PM
Very interesting thought Ardy, I had never thought about it that way. This is a very good possibility, especially when TLM stated in court that when she walked away, she couldn't go back to stop him as she just froze as flashbacks came back from her childhood...(not word for word, but TLM said something along this line)

Linda Nguyen‏@LindaNguyenPN

McClintic says she started having "flashbacks" about her abuse and "needed to do something about what was going on" #ToriStafford #Rafferty

Linda Nguyen‏@LindaNguyenPN

She says the "flashbacks" brought up "a whole lot of rage and anger in me"

I wondered the same thing after hearing TLM's version of those events and posted about it on March 21.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - trial thread: 3/21/2012


I have been hoping, not for the sake of the accused, but for Tori, that the scenario TLM described happened only in her drug-induced memory flashbacks of her own childhood abuse. If this is true, at least Tori was spared that much of the horror of that night.

JMO

Tahorn
03-29-2012, 11:50 PM
"Evil prevails when good men do nothing"?

OhSoCurious
03-29-2012, 11:51 PM
Perhaps Rodney has become more quiet because the information he has learned is not exactly what he was expecting? Maybe he simply wants to reserve his comments until he gets a better grasp of where this trial is going.

Kittymama
03-30-2012, 12:09 AM
Why do you suppose the news outlets decided not to print what Rodney had to say the last time he talked to the media? I have been curious about that.

swedie
03-30-2012, 12:26 AM
Why do you suppose the news outlets decided not to print what Rodney had to say the last time he talked to the media? I have been curious about that.

I've wondered the same thing Kitty. Maybe he said something very revealing about evidence to come? MOO :waitasec:

Kittymama
03-30-2012, 12:38 AM
Well, because it's so quiet, I guess this would be a good time to wonder aloud (so to speak) about other things that came up for me while I was reading along.

Did they not release the sketch that TLM drew of the car wash? I'd really like to see it, if they did. I'd like to know if it matches that one that someone found earlier in the thread. They released everything else; why not that?

Re: Jezbel saying MTR looked mean and menacing in court. I thought he looked mean and menacing in the ATM video (one in particular...I think the one from the day after?). JMO and my own observation.

Seeing her tombstone is so sad. It was so senseless--it's not like she died from a long and tragic illness, even. No time for her family to come to terms with an eventuality like that. No--a perfectly healthy little girl was snatched off the street in broad daylight. It should never have happened. It happened so fast. :(

swedie
03-30-2012, 01:14 AM
Legal niceties can't soften brutality Christine Blatchford

When the prosecutor asked why she chose to blame Mr. Rafferty, she asked, "Rather than admit it was myself, you mean?" then said, "Because I could not accept that I was capable of committing something so heinous.

"He was the one who wanted to kidnap a child. He was the one who raped that child. - He must be the monster" who also killed her. "I don't understand what happened that day," she added.

After Mr. Gowdey pressed her repeatedly about how and when she'd decided to blame Mr. Rafferty, Ms. McClintic said, "In my mind, all the things I had ignored, such as risk factors - things, that if - this is a man who could do this again to some other child, so wasn't it up to me to do something about it?"

http://www.nationalpost.com/related/topics/Legal+niceties+soften+brutality/6317541/story.html

TLM felt MR was capable and would do it again. Thank God she fessed up before any other child became a victim of this sickening senseless act.

swedie
03-30-2012, 01:36 AM
everyone is pretty quiet today!!! do we know who is on stand tomorrow?


The trial will not sit Thursday, but will resume Friday at 10 a.m. with evidence gathered in the area surrounding the crime scene. Jurors were expected to hear from OPP Detective Sergeant Jim Smyth, who found the little girl's remains.

http://www.nationalpost.com/related/topics/Child+killer+shoes+found+along+side+road/6378442/story.html

I don't know when we will hear from Det. Smyth, but obviously sometime during this chapter. Much gratitude to him for finding Tori's little body. Job amazingly done. BTW speaking of Det. Smyth, I thought he did a spectacular job interviewing TLM and getting her confession. He certainly had tact. :tyou:

Ardy
03-30-2012, 03:26 AM
We have to feel for Det Smyth and other LE.

We feel badly and they actually had to be there.

I hope he has a strong family and buddies to keep him okay.

fats
03-30-2012, 03:44 AM
You just can't look at that picture and not have emotions flooding in...........

Profound sadness, grief, anger, frustration............are all there.

You have to wonder how it is possible the two accused could feel none of those emotions.

Since TLM's testimony, demon possession seems much less of a wildly abstract concept than it used to.

It is the only way I can gather any measure of sense to the tragedy, and that isn't a completely satisfying answer either.

Maybe physical brain damage or impairment..........but both of them?

If it is possible to hurt and neglect animals to such a point they fight back in a mindless manner, I suppose it is possible for a human being to have such horrid background and life experiences, that they become devoid of feeling and emotion themselves and rely on the same animal survival response themselves...........but both of them?

When I read some of TLM's testimony, especially about what the words and phrases she attributed to MR during the alleged rape (which really seem extraordinarily bizarre in an already bizarre scenario)...................it sounds almost like she is recounting something that happened to her as a child.

This is especially true when she described MR sitting on the front seat of his car, naked from the waist down. That paints such a surreal picture, that it made me wonder if she wasn't describing a scene from her own past, rather than the reality of what really happened.

Truthfully I hope it was a fantasy in her head, because otherwise we have to believe that 2 people filled with such evil, managing to meet up with each in a country with 30 million people, and mutually plot this horrendous act.

The thought of 1 person like that is too much, but 2 people is almost too much to contemplate.

Hopefully, the forensic examinations will produce evidence that one side or the other cannot deny.

But, we will still be left wondering.........why.

I am revolted by the crime scene scenario but IMO it is believable...IMO this crime could not have been carried out by the actions of just one of TLM and MR--It took 2 of them working together egging each other on and then 2 of them to hide the body and the evidence. 2 of them to complete this crime--and now they both tell lies----however ACTIONS speak volumes and why why why if MR is to be believed did he not lead LE to the murder site and help in anyway---as TLM is doing. They found each other and worked together--if they never met--Victoria would be here today.


These "Sociopaths" find each other, understand each other--there are characteristics that have been document by health professionals:

*Lack of EMPATHY for others is one of these chacteristics and that is a dangerous trait--Normal people cannot comprehend this trait as we feel for others and that's why we are so disgusted at how this could even happen.

flipflop
03-30-2012, 06:50 AM
Thank you n/t for the picture. I have seen the video of RS at the cemetery with a reporter. So sad for any parent to have to visit their child that way. Sorry cannot locate that video right now.

I've wondered if the visit to that location in Mount Forest will be April 6th, two day before the day Tori was abducted three years ago. April 8th falls on a Sunday this year. I guess it would be classified as the third year anniversary, but to me anniversary sounds like something to celebrate and this is definitely not something to celebrate.:moo:

Eternal peace Victoria. You will never be forgotten. Justice is slow but looking hopeful little one.

April 6th=Good Friday, no court.

~n/t~
03-30-2012, 06:56 AM
I am revolted by the crime scene scenario but IMO it is believable...IMO this crime could not have been carried out by the actions of just one of TLM and MR--It took 2 of them working together egging each other on and then 2 of them to hide the body and the evidence. 2 of them to complete this crime--and now they both tell lies----however ACTIONS speak volumes and why why why if MR is to be believed did he not lead LE to the murder site and help in anyway---as TLM is doing. They found each other and worked together--if they never met--Victoria would be here today.


These "Sociopaths" find each other, understand each other--there are characteristics that have been document by health professionals:

*Lack of EMPATHY for others is one of these chacteristics and that is a dangerous trait--Normal people cannot comprehend this trait as we feel for others and that's why we are so disgusted at how this could even happen.

I agree. It's absolutely believable. We've seen it already in this country with the Bernardo/Homolka. There is no doubt if these two weren't caught, they'd find other victims.

There's another case in Vermont. Not the murder of a child but a mom with a two year old little boy in the car who was lured by a husband and wife team.

Found Deceased VT -*ARRESTS MADE* Melissa Jenkins, 33, Danville, 25 March 2012 - - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

There is even a tv show on ID channel called Wicked Attraction.

Forensic Psychologists and Criminal Profilers uncover horrifying clues and reveal the true stories of people driven by love to commit murder. Wicked Attraction investigates some of the most terrifying crimes in recent history and delves inside the criminal mind to explore the roots of these deadly murders and the psychological motivations behind deadly duos.

http://investigation.discovery.com/tv/wicked-attraction/

nursebeeme
03-30-2012, 07:54 AM
new thread: trial thread: 3/30/2012 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community