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imamaze
03-31-2012, 08:14 PM
Please continue here.
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Remember the "ignore" feature on your profile page.
Please stick with the facts as reported by LE or MSM, and link them. Link them often if necessary.
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And finally, PLEASE address one another respectfully. Last reminder.

We will no longer allow discussion of Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, or the Black Panther protest(s). There are way too many <modsnips> and timeouts to continue this discussion. We will allow MSM links to such protests, but no discussion.
We need to stick to the facts of this case and that's our discussion here. Please, we ask that you do what you do best - SLEUTH THE CASE.
Blogs and Twitter links and discussion of them are allowed only if it's an approved WS link or a link from main stream media (MSM).


Thread #1 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165269&highlight=Trayvon)
Thread #2 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166351&highlight=Trayvon+martin)
Thread #3 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166513&highlight=Trayvon+martin)
Thread #4 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166660&highlight=Trayvon+martin)
Thread #5
Thread #6 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166872&highlight=Trayvon+Martin)
Thread #7 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167001&highlight=Trayvon+Martin)
Thread #8 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167151&highlight=y%2Fo+teen)
Thread #9
Thread #10
Thread #11
Thread #12

Clairfication on WS stance regarding the "victim friendly" issue.
I had a discussion with the owners about how we were to deal with this. This is what I was advised:
At this point in the investigation we don't KNOW exactly who ALL the victims are now. We KNOW that Trayvon is a victim, because he is dead. However, news breaks and new leaks come forth everyday and it is still unclear whether Zimmerman was a victim of any violence. Until more verifiable FACTS are available, WS has chosen to err on the side of treating both the confirmed (Trayvon) AND potential (Zimmerman) victim, both as victims.
Like I said, that may change after we have more verifiable information
Hope that helps clear this up.
Please bump as needed.

Just a reminder:
WS does not permit links that request or suggest sending donations without the clear permission of the owners . This is to protect our members and for no other reason.
__________________

RANCH
03-31-2012, 08:27 PM
That is the way that our system is set up. The States Attorney does not have to have enough proof that she has a slam dunk case....the only thing that is required of her is that she have enough evidence to believe that the charges that she believe that the charges she brings against GZ are correct, she's not required to have enough to win, but enough to convince her that a crime has been committed and that GZ committed that crime.

Unless everything we have heard and seen thus far is 100% wrong, she has PC NOW. IMO JMHO and stuff.

I'm not sure what you mean by having enough to win? There's no guaranty of a win no matter what evidence you have in a jury trial. I used your words "indisputable evidence" in my post because that's what you hope to see. I was wondering what will happen if we don't see "indisputable evidence".

katydid23
03-31-2012, 08:28 PM
I've seen people more upset over killing a dog than Zimmerman appeared in the video at the station? I'll never forget when I hit a cat. I had to pull over because I could not stop crying. I sat there for a good 30 minutes crying.
________brought over from closed thread------------------------------------------------


I think that is a bit unfair. I think he may have been in shock. I would be. People react differently to heavy trauma. I saw a horrible accident that resulted in a death and I was very stoic and calm when I gave my witness statement to LE. And even when I first got back home I seemed unemotional. Then that night I feel apart and sobbed.

shadowraiths
03-31-2012, 08:36 PM
Imo, this tragic case has nothing to do with racial profiling. Nor do I think this was a hate crime. And yes, I did hear the racial slur in the 911 call. I simply do not feel that slur in conjunction with the unfolding of events, as I presently understand them (i.e., from listening to the 911 calls, link (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html) ), supports the contention that this tragedy was a hate crime as outlined in the "Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act" ( link (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:S.909:) ) That is, I do not think GZ targeted and proceeded to shoot Trayvon purely bc he was black.

I think instead, this is a case of a hotheaded, wanna-be cop, who, from my read, regularly harassed neighborhood residents ( link (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/trayvon-martin-case-george-zimmerman_n_1392591.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Chp-laptop%7Cdl2%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D148197) ) and made chronic nuisance calls to the SPD ( link (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html) ). Otherwise put, imnsho, this guy was a accident waiting to happen. Someone who was bound to shoot someone, anyone, sooner or later. The recent voice findings ( link (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty) ), imho, refutes GZ's claim that the shooting was an act of self defense. Which, again, supports my contention that this guy was a walking time-bomb.

Aside: I wish they would post all of GZ's 911 calls as well as any other voice recordings they might have of the guy, bc, imho, he def sounds intoxicated in this call. ( link (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/911/call1.wav) ) And, in light of the number of calls he made over the past eight years, I cannot help but to wonder if there might be an underlying substance abuse issue, or possibly even some sort of brain injury, that might explain (not excuse, of course), his, imho, reckless behavior.

songline
03-31-2012, 08:37 PM
I am always left with huge smile at those who refuse to play witch hunt, but want
the real information to come out, through fair investigation.
I love you guys :beats:


The story has reached a point where we are going in circles…and have to wait for a thorough investigation and hope for a fair analysis of it all.

I wonder if the voice analyzers have any authenticity since they came out on a weekend…
I can’t wait for Monday to hear more.
(if I question the DA coming out on a rainy Sunday night to a shooting scene – you bet I will also question anything else that happens on a weekend, because it is not usual)


I cannot keep up with the threads. It is flying like the wind.

Sensei
03-31-2012, 08:39 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by having enough to win? There's no guaranty of a win no matter what evidence you have in a jury trial. I used your words "indisputable evidence" in my post because that's what you hope to see. I was wondering what will happen if we don't see "indisputable evidence".

maybe indisputable evidence was the wrong phrasing. But she is going to be convinced by the evidence that it was self defense, or she is going to be convinced that it was not....and even if there is not indisputable evidence it will have to go to trial, but I don't believe that it is going to be, well, we just don't know for sure so we aren't going to do anything. I firmly believe that there will be a preponderance of evidence one way or the other. IMO JMHO and stuff.

songline
03-31-2012, 08:41 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by having enough to win? There's no guaranty of a win no matter what evidence you have in a jury trial. I used your words "indisputable evidence" in my post because that's what you hope to see. I was wondering what will happen if we don't see "indisputable evidence".

I am not waiting for any indisputable evidence...because there is only one thing here that is not disputable and that is TM is dead.
all else is hanging on a thread...
IMO we can only wait for a clean investigation...and connect the dots.
Maybe there are witnesses that we do not know of.
I do not see an open and shut case. :moo: They PD tried that and look how it blew up.

Concerned Papa
03-31-2012, 08:42 PM
I just went to YouTube and listened to this child's screams of terror for the first time. I purposefully had waited for the news provided by the Sentinel earlier this evening.

I don't see how anyone's very soul can not be troubled by what I just heard. I don't see how a rage can not build for not only his killer, but those who lied to us with their assurances of these primal screams as coming from their kin being beaten by a child.

I dare you to take 47 seconds and listen to the early part of this tape. I dare you to listen and realize that tonight we have been told by TWO experts that the source of these screams is NOT GEORGE ZIMMERMAN.

Trayvon Martin 911 Tape Screaming "Help" - YouTube

Ironhorse
03-31-2012, 08:43 PM
So should we expect a load of mad man with guns? :floorlaugh:
You've got nothing t be concerned about there... The event was scheduled a year ago, they do them about every 3 months. I was just merely adding commentary that this incident no doubt has concerned a great number of people to arm themselves. And that I had never seen such a big turnout at the event in over 5 years.

I like your assessments and I am right there with you. I think things snowballed out of hand.
THE DOG AND MAN STAND OFF IS a perfect visual. LOL
Those capable of critical thinking will understand it... As I said it gave me pause to think on the incident that occurred in Sanford. I think it's terrible that a young man lost his life but I also think it's terrible that a man had to take a life... What no one can thus far say with any certainty is that at that moment it was unjustified... Yet it seems a great number are suffering from Scotoma.

All this non-sense about shot in the back is rubbish. There has been way too many eyes who've seen the body at this point. If that had been the situation Zimmerman would have been arrested and charged on the spot. Not even the SPD could conceal that from being discovered. The Corner and later the Mortician would no doubt be aware of the entry wound area...

LambChop
03-31-2012, 08:44 PM
I've seen people more upset over killing a dog than Zimmerman appeared in the video at the station? I'll never forget when I hit a cat. I had to pull over because I could not stop crying. I sat there for a good 30 minutes crying.
________brought over from closed thread------------------------------------------------


I think that is a bit unfair. I think he may have been in shock. I would be. People react differently to heavy trauma. I saw a horrible accident that resulted in a death and I was very stoic and calm when I gave my witness statement to LE. And even when I first got back home I seemed unemotional. Then that night I feel apart and sobbed.

While you may have felt unemotional at the time someone looking at you I'm sure could see the signs. We can see GZ talking freely with LE and even walks on his own behind the first LEO just like he's there only to give a statement. The LEO who should be escorting him in is left behind and having to catch up with him. And for someone just having been in a fight he really does look remarkably put together. We know he was on the ground at some point because his back is wet and he has grass on his jacket it but the rest of him looks undisturbed. I can't imagine being in that violent a fight and not have your clothes show signs of a struggle. jmo

legalmania
03-31-2012, 08:44 PM
I think the prosecutor is doing the right thing not rushing to judgement. Sometimes it takes years for an arrest. I think they are probably looking to see if there were any surveillance cameras or additional witnesses. They also need lab work back the blood evidence, the victims medical findings. I think that within a month or so this will be put in front of a grand jury.

songline
03-31-2012, 08:47 PM
I've seen people more upset over killing a dog than Zimmerman appeared in the video at the station? I'll never forget when I hit a cat. I had to pull over because I could not stop crying. I sat there for a good 30 minutes crying.
________brought over from closed thread------------------------------------------------


I think that is a bit unfair. I think he may have been in shock. I would be. People react differently to heavy trauma. I saw a horrible accident that resulted in a death and I was very stoic and calm when I gave my witness statement to LE. And even when I first got back home I seemed unemotional. Then that night I feel apart and sobbed.

Sorry when my Mom Died I did not cry. but I am told (I do not remember) that someone grabbed me because I looked like I was either going to fall or jump in the grave. I was in shock but 6 months later I started to cry all the time...it took over 6 months for me to stop the constant tears.

WE ALL RESPOND in a different way...But if you had seen me the day of the funeral, you would have asked is she numb, dumb, or unfeeling???

RANCH
03-31-2012, 08:47 PM
Post by Sensei from last thread.


No one who could be suffering from a
concussion, or bleeding into their brain from a closed head trauma can be of sound mind due to the nature of their injury. IMO JMHO and stuff.

Those conditions can ONLY be diagnosed by a physician, with the proper tests, CT scan, possibly MRI ect. so the story of having your head hit hard, and any substatiating evidence is enough....
So if anyone suffers a blow to the head at lets say a car accident, police can legally force them to go to a hospital and undergo treatment even if they decline?

I still would like Richard Hornsby's opinion on this.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - FL 17 y/o Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #12

OneLove
03-31-2012, 08:48 PM
I'd been to two rally's over this incident already so I didn't attend today's. Instead I went to the gun show in Orange county. It was the busiest show I've seen in years could hardly walk around the place.<br />
<modsnip>
<br />
I've been keeping abreast of all the info being released/leaked to the public. I still remain committed to my first impression that this incident was purely a snowballed incident that ended in tragedy. Each individual let their suspicion of the other get the better of them. <br />
<br />
Funny thing happened yesterday that gave me pause to think. I was washing a car and down the street I heard a forceful bark from a dog. This bark wasn't the typical bark from a dog but rather one of posturing. Then I heard a man shouting get out of here as I turned to look I saw the dog and a man in a stand off... Now what's the importance of this and what does it have to do with the incident in Sanford. Well, in some ways it mirrored what Zimmerman/Martin must have experienced. In that moment it didn't matter what the history was of the neighbor or the dog, for each was entitled to defend themselves. Had the dog attacked the man would have been been justified in self-defense. Had the man attacked the dog then the dog had every right to bite him... <br />
<br />
See, all the rest doesn't really matter. Some say Zimmerman shouldn't have gotten out of his truck. Maybe if Martin hadn't been suspended from school he wouldn't have been in Sanford. See there is all sorts of what if's and trying to lay blame on such things are of no material importance. The only thing that really defines this incident is what happened at the moment Zimmerman fired the shot. Was he defending his well being or was he not.

ONELOVE: I brought the above post over from the last thread, posted by Ironhorse, I think.

While it is beautifully written and I love the style, there are two observations to make about it.

One is that the dog in this scenario SHOULD have been restrained by the owner. It is the owner's legal responsibility. Some innocent victims have been killed in such incidents; some we have read about here at Websleuths. If the dog HAD bitten, it would NOT have been justifiable UNDER THE LAW. Most of us here would judge the dog owner to be in the wrong and the man to be within his legal rights to defend himself. It's really NOT an "all the rest of the factors don't really matter" situation AT ALL.

Secondly, bringing up Trayvon's suspension from school, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with how and why he was killed, and comparing that to Zimmerman's conscious CHOICE to get out of his truck and stalk Trayvon with a GUN is coming from two entirely different universes. One has exactly nothing to do with the other. The comment "trying to lay blame is of no material importance" is most intriguing. This is, in fact, what a fair, competent, unbiased investigation is ALL about. If what happened in that moment of the killing is due to GZ's WRONGFUL actions, then of course it matters. If Trayvon committed an act prior to that moment that merited his being shot, then of COURSE that matters.

But if I had not stopped to THINK about this, I would thought you to be persuasive with wordcraft. I hope a jury will think with their rational brains and not emotional drama.

But again, I thank you for a nicely written piece. :)

thefragile7393
03-31-2012, 08:48 PM
Imo, this tragic case has nothing to do with racial profiling. Nor do I think this was a hate crime. And yes, I did hear the racial slur in the 911 call. I simply do not feel that slur in conjunction with the unfolding of events, as I presently understand them (i.e., from listening to the 911 calls, link (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html) ), supports the contention that this tragedy was a hate crime as outlined in the "Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act" ( link (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:S.909:) ) That is, I do not think GZ targeted and proceeded to shoot Trayvon purely bc he was black.

I think instead, this is a case of a hotheaded, wanna-be cop, who, from my read, regularly harassed neighborhood residents ( link (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/trayvon-martin-case-george-zimmerman_n_1392591.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Chp-laptop%7Cdl2%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D148197) ) and made chronic nuisance calls to the SPD ( link (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html) ). Otherwise put, imnsho, this guy was a accident waiting to happen. Someone who was bound to shoot someone, anyone, sooner or later. The recent voice findings ( link (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty) ), imho, refutes GZ's claim that the shooting was an act of self defense. Which, again, supports my contention that this guy was a walking time-bomb.

Aside: I wish they would post all of GZ's 911 calls as well as any other voice recordings they might have of the guy, bc, imho, he def sounds intoxicated in this call. ( link (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/911/call1.wav) ) And, in light of the number of calls he made over the past eight years, I cannot help but to wonder if there might be an underlying substance abuse issue, or possibly even some sort of brain injury, that might explain (not excuse, of course), his, imho, reckless behavior.



Wow...very nice and well-linked post!

CathyinTexas
03-31-2012, 08:49 PM
I've seen people more upset over killing a dog than Zimmerman appeared in the video at the station? I'll never forget when I hit a cat. I had to pull over because I could not stop crying. I sat there for a good 30 minutes crying.
________brought over from closed thread------------------------------------------------


I think that is a bit unfair. I think he may have been in shock. I would be. People react differently to heavy trauma. I saw a horrible accident that resulted in a death and I was very stoic and calm when I gave my witness statement to LE. And even when I first got back home I seemed unemotional. Then that night I feel apart and sobbed.

I don't think GZ was in shock. He didn't have the right affect or tone when he was supposedly suspicious of Trayvon. I have wondered if when he had his hands on Trayvon after the shooting if he was looking for a weapon or just discovered all he had on him was the Skittles, Tea and phone, and that is why he was pacing with his hands on his head. I wonder if the police got samples of the blood that was supposedly on him at the scene. I am guessing they didn't. I can't believe that they would allow the EMTs to "clean him up" before doing that. According to a retired NYPD officer they didn't bag his hands and shoes either, which is always protocol in a shooting.

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 08:49 PM
One of our wonderful members, I forget the username, brought up any tapes that may have been taken at 7-11. At first I was like, what would that have to do with what happened in the complex? Now that I think about it, I think everything leading up to the shooting that night is important.

I don't know how long 7-11's keep their tapes? I can only hope that the LE investigating this shooting had enough intelligence that when they heard Trayvon had gone to the store, that they immediately went and got the tapes.

Also, with the store being so close, that could have been the store Zimmerman was also heading to? I know that Zimmerman said he was on his way to the store, but I would like to rule out that he had already been to the store? Entrance gate cameras should show this too?

Does anyone know what building Zimmerman lived in? Does it show on that map what building he lives in?

whiteangora
03-31-2012, 08:50 PM
I just went to YouTube and listened to this child's screams of terror for the first time. I purposefully had waited for the news provided by the Sentinel earlier this evening.

I don't see how anyone's very soul can not be troubled by what I just heard. I don't see how a rage can not build for not only his killer, but those who lied to us with their assurances of these primal screams as coming from their kin being beaten by a child.

I dare you to take 47 seconds and listen to the early part of this tape. I dare you to listen and realize that tonight we have been told by TWO experts that the source of these screams is NOT GEORGE ZIMMERMAN.

Trayvon Martin 911 Tape Screaming "Help" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj4RHJ0taoc)

Oh my, I'm just shaking after listening to that. That poor boy.
I wonder what kind of condition GZ's knuckles were in after all of
that torture?

Emeralgem
03-31-2012, 08:50 PM
I just went to YouTube and listened to this child's screams of terror for the first time. I purposefully had waited for the news provided by the Sentinel earlier this evening.

I don't see how anyone's very soul can not be troubled by what I just heard. I don't see how a rage can not build for not only his killer, but those who lied to us with their assurances of these primal screams as coming from their kin being beaten by a child.

I dare you to take 47 seconds and listen to the early part of this tape. I dare you to listen and realize that tonight we have been told by TWO experts that the source of these screams is NOT GEORGE ZIMMERMAN.

Trayvon Martin 911 Tape Screaming "Help" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj4RHJ0taoc)

Papa, I can't listen...Don't know IF or when I will ever be able to..Entirely too painful especially now knowing his life was going to be snuffed out within a few minutes......JMHO

CathyinTexas
03-31-2012, 08:52 PM
I just went to YouTube and listened to this child's screams of terror for the first time. I purposefully had waited for the news provided by the Sentinel earlier this evening.

I don't see how anyone's very soul can not be troubled by what I just heard. I don't see how a rage can not build for not only his killer, but those who lied to us with their assurances of these primal screams as coming from their kin being beaten by a child.

I dare you to take 47 seconds and listen to the early part of this tape. I dare you to listen and realize that tonight we have been told by TWO experts that the source of these screams is NOT GEORGE ZIMMERMAN.

Trayvon Martin 911 Tape Screaming "Help" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj4RHJ0taoc)

I know I have said this more than once, but I have always known it was Trayvon screaming. Will that convict GZ?

katydid23
03-31-2012, 08:53 PM
I think the prosecutor is doing the right thing not rushing to judgement. Sometimes it takes years for an arrest. I think they are probably looking to see if there were any surveillance cameras or additional witnesses. They also need lab work back the blood evidence, the victims medical findings. I think that within a month or so this will be put in front of a grand jury.

I agree. And , imo, this huge national protest is putting the DA in a very bad position. If they feel pressured by the public to arrest him BEFORE they have the tests and evidence back, it might hamper the case.

LambChop
03-31-2012, 08:53 PM
I am always left with huge smile at those who refuse to play witch hunt, but want
the real information to come out, through fair investigation.
I love you guys :beats:


The story has reached a point where we are going in circles…and have to wait for a thorough investigation and hope for a fair analysis of it all.

I wonder if the voice analyzers have any authenticity since they came out on a weekend…I can’t wait for Monday to hear more.
(if I question the DA coming out on a rainy Sunday night to a shooting scene – you bet I will also question anything else that happens on a weekend, because it is not usual)

I cannot keep up with the threads. It is flying like the wind.

BBM: Maybe the overwhelming attendance at the gun shot brought them out. No one wants to see this get out of hand. In reality, I'm sure it took them a few days of listening to make their determination and submit their reports before OS wanted to announce them. jmo

Sensei
03-31-2012, 08:55 PM
You've got nothing t be concerned about there... The event was scheduled a year ago, they do them about every 3 months. I was just merely adding commentary that this incident no doubt has concerned a great number of people to arm themselves. And that I had never seen such a big turnout at the event in over 5 years.


Those capable of critical thinking will understand it... As I said it gave me pause to think on the incident that occurred in Sanford. I think it's terrible that a young man lost his life but I also think it's terrible that a man had to take a life... What no one can thus far say with any certainty is that at that moment it was unjustified... Yet it seems a great number are suffering from Scotoma.

All this non-sense about shot in the back is rubbish. There has been way too many eyes who've seen the body at this point. If that had been the situation Zimmerman would have been arrested and charged on the spot. Not even the SPD could conceal that from being discovered. The Corner and later the Mortician would no doubt be aware of the entry wound area...


I don't think that Trayvon was shot in the back, but I do doubt the story that he was on top of GZ when he was shot....I cannot reconcile the unblemished state of GZ's shirt with a very close contact chest shot, I would not expect him to be covered in blood but there should be some spots of blood big enough for a person to see, even with the grainy camera. From what I have been able to find out, gunshot wounds splatter blood when they first hit.

Further, I have never believed that the screams on the 911 tape were GZ, it does not sound like his voice at all, and I have every reason to believe the test that has been published, which leads me to believe that is the sound of a young man who sees the gun, and knows that he is going to be shot and is trying to get away, if the voice analysis is correct it certainly does not substantiate the idea that GZ was under attack when he shot, and lastly, I do not believe that someone shouting and screaming for their life is going to simply STOP the minute they shoot their assailant....how did he know that one shot would stop him? In a life and death struggle you don't stop screaming until you are certain that you are no longer under attack, and I don't see that being the very instant that you shoot...IMO JMHO and stuff.

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 08:56 PM
Okay, I wasn't going to get into the voice analysist thing tonight because I wanted to do a little more research on these "experts", but I really need to know if they did this independently? Or were they hired by the State of Florida?

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 08:57 PM
I don't have a problem with normal people owning guns. I do have problem with people that are not normal having guns. George Zimmerman, imo, is not normal or stable and hasn't been for a long time.

Do you have to do any kind of mental exam before getting a license to have a gun?

LambChop
03-31-2012, 08:58 PM
One of our wonderful members, I forget the username, brought up any tapes that may have been taken at 7-11. At first I was like, what would that have to do with what happened in the complex? Now that I think about it, I think everything leading up to the shooting that night is important.

I don't know how long 7-11's keep their tapes? I can only hope that the LE investigating this shooting had enough intelligence that when they heard Trayvon had gone to the store, that they immediately went and got the tapes.

Also, with the store being so close, that could have been the store Zimmerman was also heading to? I know that Zimmerman said he was on his way to the store, but I would like to rule out that he had already been to the store? Entrance gate cameras should show this too?

Does anyone know what building Zimmerman lived in? Does it show on that map what building he lives in?

When you look at the map he lives on the left side past the pool area. I won't put the address. So he was driving towards the clubhouse to turn left to go out the gate and he turned right to follow TM. jmo

OneLove
03-31-2012, 08:59 PM
Imo, this tragic case has nothing to do with racial profiling. Nor do I think this was a hate crime. And yes, I did hear the racial slur in the 911 call. I simply do not feel that slur in conjunction with the unfolding of events, as I presently understand them (i.e., from listening to the 911 calls, link (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html) ), supports the contention that this tragedy was a hate crime as outlined in the "Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act" ( link (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:S.909:) ) That is, I do not think GZ targeted and proceeded to shoot Trayvon purely bc he was black.

I think instead, this is a case of a hotheaded, wanna-be cop, who, from my read, regularly harassed neighborhood residents ( link (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/trayvon-martin-case-george-zimmerman_n_1392591.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Chp-laptop%7Cdl2%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D148197) ) and made chronic nuisance calls to the SPD ( link (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html) ). Otherwise put, imnsho, this guy was a accident waiting to happen. Someone who was bound to shoot someone, anyone, sooner or later. The recent voice findings ( link (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty) ), imho, refutes GZ's claim that the shooting was an act of self defense. Which, again, supports my contention that this guy was a walking time-bomb.

Aside: I wish they would post all of GZ's 911 calls as well as any other voice recordings they might have of the guy, bc, imho, he def sounds intoxicated in this call. ( link (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/911/call1.wav) ) And, in light of the number of calls he made over the past eight years, I cannot help but to wonder if there might be an underlying substance abuse issue, or possibly even some sort of brain injury, that might explain (not excuse, of course), his, imho, reckless behavior.

Wow! Thank you, thank you, thank you. Very good post with excellent embedded links. I had not yet read the one that notes the neighbors reporting GZ stalking them also and following them back to their homes. Creeeeeepy. This engenders a whole new batch of questions. :eek:

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 08:59 PM
And, I've also always thought it was Trayvon screaming because it stopped immediately after the gunshot. I just could not understand how George was able to stop screaming for help when he was so severely injured and had to now get Trayvon's lifeless body off of his very injured body?

RANCH
03-31-2012, 09:00 PM
Okay, I wasn't going to get into the voice analysist thing tonight because I wanted to do a little more research on these "experts", but I really need to know if they did this independently? Or were they hired by the State of Florida?

Looks like the Orlando Sentinel had Tom Owen do the tests.
A leading expert in the field of forensic voice identification sought to answer that question by analyzing the recordings for the Orlando Sentinel.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

ETA. I didn't see if the Orlando Sentinel paid him for this or not.

Sensei
03-31-2012, 09:00 PM
I don't think GZ was in shock. He didn't have the right affect or tone when he was supposedly suspicious of Trayvon. I have wondered if when he had his hands on Trayvon after the shooting if he was looking for a weapon or just discovered all he had on him was the Skittles, Tea and phone, and that is why he was pacing with his hands on his head. I wonder if the police got samples of the blood that was supposedly on him at the scene. I am guessing they didn't. I can't believe that they would allow the EMTs to "clean him up" before doing that. According to a retired NYPD officer they didn't bag his hands and shoes either, which is always protocol in a shooting.

Thanks, I wasn't going to say it, but I will second that. I have seen a lot of people in shock, and he just does not appear to have the mannerisms of someone in shock...usually someone in shock you pretty much have to lead them around, and often they can't answer your questions...they don't turn their head much or raise and lower it. But again, that is only my experience and IMO JMHO and stuff.

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 09:00 PM
BBM: Maybe the overwhelming attendance at the gun shot brought them out. No one wants to see this get out of hand. In reality, I'm sure it took them a few days of listening to make their determination and submit their reports before OS wanted to announce them. jmo
I'm just really not sure how they can gauge/compare Zimmerman talking in a normal tone to him screaming. They appear to have valid credentials, so I'm don't think they'd put themselves out there like that if they weren't sure, but I just can't wrap my head around how screams can be compared to just talking. I sound nothing like how I talk when I scream. I dunno.

angeleleven
03-31-2012, 09:02 PM
Justice with Judge Jeanine on Fox is discussing Trayvon's case now.

katydid23
03-31-2012, 09:04 PM
I don't think that Trayvon was shot in the back, but I do doubt the story that he was on top of GZ when he was shot....I cannot reconcile the unblemished state of GZ's shirt with a very close contact chest shot, I would not expect him to be covered in blood but there should be some spots of blood big enough for a person to see, even with the grainy camera. From what I have been able to find out, gunshot wounds splatter blood when they first hit.

Further, I have never believed that the screams on the 911 tape were GZ, it does not sound like his voice at all, and I have every reason to believe the test that has been published, which leads me to believe that is the sound of a young man who sees the gun, and knows that he is going to be shot and is trying to get away, if the voice analysis is correct it certainly does not substantiate the idea that GZ was under attack when he shot, and lastly, I do not believe that someone shouting and screaming for their life is going to simply STOP the minute they shoot their assailant....how did he know that one shot would stop him? In a life and death struggle you don't stop screaming until you are certain that you are no longer under attack, and I don't see that being the very instant that you shoot...IMO JMHO and stuff.

I agree with you about the screaming. But I do have a lot of questions about who was sitting on top of whom. I have a hard time believing that GZ would be sitting on top of TM, and be in total control of the gun, and then just shoot him for no reason. He knows there are people looking out of windows and that LE is arriving any moment. WHY would he do that?

I think it is much more likely that during the struggle they were both wrestling over the gun. TM was probably screaming bloody murder because he saw the gun and was afraid for his life. But in that case he would be trying to grab it himself, imo.

annalia
03-31-2012, 09:04 PM
Papa, I can't listen...Don't know IF or when I will ever be able to..Entirely too painful especially now knowing his life was going to be snuffed out within a few minutes......JMHO

It is gut wrenching, I can only imagine a parent's nightmare hearing that, knowing that was their child's last moments.

If these are Trayvon's screams ( I do believe that they are ), when GZ just came out and said that he was calling for help but no one came, without being questioned, he had no way to know that the actual cries and shot would be recorded. Did he say this because he thought at that time that it couldn't be disproven? He knew there were screams he would guess that others may have heard screams, but he thinks they'll never be able to prove that it wasn't him if he says that it was?

JMHO

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 09:05 PM
Looks like the Orlando Sentinel had Tom Owen do the tests.


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

ETA. I didn't see if the Orlando Sentinel paid him for this or not.

Interesting! It appears that he has been called to give his expert opinion for testimony in trials. Very, very interesting that they use this same technology for terrorists.

pinkflamingo
03-31-2012, 09:07 PM
Looks like the Orlando Sentinel had Tom Owen do the tests.


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

ETA. I didn't see if the Orlando Sentinel paid him for this or not.

I think they need to compare Trayvon's voice to be conclusive. They only tested Zimmerman's and got a 48% match. Whatever that means

JBounds
03-31-2012, 09:08 PM
What racial slur on the 911 call? I've heard no racial slur on it and I've listened several times. At one point it sounds like he says punk and besides the audio is pretty poor to determine what was even said.

This whole ordeal reads like some Hollywood script that media is writing all the while helping to further eventual violence against GZ. Is this the 1800's where posses can form and take out someone and do anything they please? I hope not because if that does happen it will in fact be the media's fault. It will have set us back 150 years.

There's no reason to not believe GZ's story that he went back to his car after he hung up, since witness state he did. But to make for a more exciting story, GZ hunted down TM down and killed him in cold blood.

I'm not on GZ's side exactly, but I'm not on the media's side either. I'm on no witchhunt, but for facts. Someone died and GZ should have to do a some time over it. But I do not believe it was unless there is a reason otherwise. And tehre could be no one really knows but GZ himself and witness'

LambChop
03-31-2012, 09:08 PM
I'm just really not sure how they can gauge/compare Zimmerman talking in a normal tone to him screaming. They appear to have valid credentials, so I'm don't think they'd put themselves out there like that if they weren't sure, but I just can't wrap my head around how screams can be compared to just talking. I sound nothing like how I talk when I scream. I dunno.

When they do a voice analysis it shows a pattern so a woman's screams would look different than a man's on the graphs. Very technical I'm assuming but I have seen some programs where they have done it and it is amazing what they can do. jmo

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 09:09 PM
I'm not sure why this "No Limit Nigga" thing is not being explained anywhere. I googled the phrase and discovered my suspicions were correct. It is the name of a Hip Hop group, apparently one that Trayvon liked. And if his parents were not aware of the Twitter account, I am not surprised. Trayvon just turned 17, did YOU share everything with YOUR parents when you were a teen??? I sure didn't!!!!

You want to see what I had as my screensaver for a long time... any guess who this is?

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/gallery/nonmetros.html

He's my favorite running back from the Miami Hurricanes. Doesn't he look mean?? :floorlaugh:

RANCH
03-31-2012, 09:10 PM
Interesting! It appears that he has been called to give his expert opinion for testimony in trials. Very, very interesting that they use this same technology for terrorists.

If the Orlando Sentinel paid him for this, would that be a factor in using him in any potential trial?

JeannaT
03-31-2012, 09:10 PM
And, I've also always thought it was Trayvon screaming because it stopped immediately after the gunshot. I just could not understand how George was able to stop screaming for help when he was so severely injured and had to now get Trayvon's lifeless body off of his very injured body?

GZ would stop screaming for help too, if the man he feared was now incapacitated.

Either one who was screaming for help would stop immediately after the shot.

And GZ wasn't "so severely injured" that he couldn't get up. You don't have to take a beating before you can shoot if you have reasonable fear that you WILL be injured.

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 09:11 PM
What racial slur on the 911 call? I've heard no racial slur on it and I've listened several times. At one point it sounds like he says punk and besides the audio is pretty poor to determine what was even said.

This whole ordeal reads like some Hollywood script that media is writing all the while helping to further eventual violence against GZ. Is this the 1800's where posses can form and take out someone and do anything they please? I hope not because if that does happen it will in fact be the media's fault. It will have set us back 150 years.

There's no reason to not believe GZ's story that he went back to his car after he hung up, since witness state he did. But to make for a more exciting story, GZ hunted down TM down and killed him in cold blood.

I'm not on GZ's side exactly, but I'm not on the media's side either. I'm on no witchhunt, but for facts. Someone died and GZ should have to do a some time over it. But I do not believe it was unless there is a reason otherwise. And tehre could be no one really knows but GZ himself and witness'

Everyone has their own opinion on what it says. I believe the FBI is enhancing the tape. I'll trust that they get it right.

Tulessa
03-31-2012, 09:11 PM
Imo, this tragic case has nothing to do with racial profiling. Nor do I think this was a hate crime. And yes, I did hear the racial slur in the 911 call. I simply do not feel that slur in conjunction with the unfolding of events, as I presently understand them (i.e., from listening to the 911 calls, link (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html) ), supports the contention that this tragedy was a hate crime as outlined in the "Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act" ( link (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:S.909:) ) That is, I do not think GZ targeted and proceeded to shoot Trayvon purely bc he was black.

I think instead, this is a case of a hotheaded, wanna-be cop, who, from my read, regularly harassed neighborhood residents ( link (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/trayvon-martin-case-george-zimmerman_n_1392591.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Chp-laptop%7Cdl2%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D148197) ) and made chronic nuisance calls to the SPD ( link (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html) ). Otherwise put, imnsho, this guy was a accident waiting to happen. Someone who was bound to shoot someone, anyone, sooner or later. The recent voice findings ( link (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty) ), imho, refutes GZ's claim that the shooting was an act of self defense. Which, again, supports my contention that this guy was a walking time-bomb.

Aside: I wish they would post all of GZ's 911 calls as well as any other voice recordings they might have of the guy, bc, imho, he def sounds intoxicated in this call. ( link (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/911/call1.wav) ) And, in light of the number of calls he made over the past eight years, I cannot help but to wonder if there might be an underlying substance abuse issue, or possibly even some sort of brain injury, that might explain (not excuse, of course), his, imho, reckless behavior.

I don't post much in this thread but I just had to respond to your wonderful post. IMO you nailed it!

I promised beachy I would be good six months ago and I never break a promise.:blushing:

Cher352
03-31-2012, 09:12 PM
One of our wonderful members, I forget the username, brought up any tapes that may have been taken at 7-11. At first I was like, what would that have to do with what happened in the complex? Now that I think about it, I think everything leading up to the shooting that night is important.

I don't know how long 7-11's keep their tapes? I can only hope that the LE investigating this shooting had enough intelligence that when they heard Trayvon had gone to the store, that they immediately went and got the tapes.

Also, with the store being so close, that could have been the store Zimmerman was also heading to? I know that Zimmerman said he was on his way to the store, but I would like to rule out that he had already been to the store? Entrance gate cameras should show this too?

Does anyone know what building Zimmerman lived in? Does it show on that map what building he lives in?

I am hoping they have all the videos too to help tie down the time line.

GZ said his brother was on his way to Target and some posted on the last thread that the 7-11 was about 2 miles away. I have seen a map linked here but it didn't have these 2 locations marked on them nor the apt location at the time I saw it. Anyone know if there is another map out there that has the aptbuilding and these 2 stores show?

vlpate
03-31-2012, 09:12 PM
Looks like the Orlando Sentinel had Tom Owen do the tests.


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

ETA. I didn't see if the Orlando Sentinel paid him for this or not.

Seems he's had two famous cases:

http://www.owlinvestigations.com/famous_cases.html
"Audio Expert: Britney Recording Was 'Manipulated'
A highly-respected audio expert tells TMZ ... Jason Alexander's recording of the woman he claims is Britney Spears "has been electronically stepped on."

Tom Owen of OWL Investigations, and Chairman of the Audio Engineering Society Standards Committee of Forensic Audio, tells TMZ, the tape was "doctored" to such a severe extent, there's no way to conduct a meaningful voice-recognition test."

Damage control - reasonable doubt. Almost a week ago the special prosecutor said she was having her experts test the tapes for the possible racial epithet and the 911 call where the screams are heard. Something tells me Crump already knows the answer.

Ed Gelb and the Ramsey case comes to mind.
.

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 09:12 PM
GZ would stop screaming for help too, if the man he feared was now incapacitated.

Either one who was screaming for help would stop immediately after the shot.

I'm sure the State will hire their own experts to do the voice analysis. But for now, the experts who have listened to the tape, say that it is not Zimmerman?

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 09:13 PM
Interesting! It appears that he has been called to give his expert opinion for testimony in trials. Very, very interesting that they use this same technology for terrorists.
But that would be more for looking at recorded phone calls and wiretaps. It's very logical to think that they could match talking voices very easily. It's the difference in demeanor, register, and stress when someone screams like that that makes me wonder.

Ironhorse
03-31-2012, 09:14 PM
I'd been to two rally's over this incident already so I didn't attend today's. Instead I went to the gun show in Orange county. It was the busiest show I've seen in years could hardly walk around the place.<br />
<br />
<modsnip><br />
<br />
I've been keeping abreast of all the info being released/leaked to the public. I still remain committed to my first impression that this incident was purely a snowballed incident that ended in tragedy. Each individual let their suspicion of the other get the better of them. <br />
<br />
Funny thing happened yesterday that gave me pause to think. I was washing a car and down the street I heard a forceful bark from a dog. This bark wasn't the typical bark from a dog but rather one of posturing. Then I heard a man shouting get out of here as I turned to look I saw the dog and a man in a stand off... Now what's the importance of this and what does it have to do with the incident in Sanford. Well, in some ways it mirrored what Zimmerman/Martin must have experienced. In that moment it didn't matter what the history was of the neighbor or the dog, for each was entitled to defend themselves. Had the dog attacked the man would have been been justified in self-defense. Had the man attacked the dog then the dog had every right to bite him... <br />
<br />
See, all the rest doesn't really matter. Some say Zimmerman shouldn't have gotten out of his truck. Maybe if Martin hadn't been suspended from school he wouldn't have been in Sanford. See there is all sorts of what if's and trying to lay blame on such things are of no material importance. The only thing that really defines this incident is what happened at the moment Zimmerman fired the shot. Was he defending his well being or was he not.

ONELOVE: I brought the above post over from the last thread, posted by Ironhorse, I think.

While it is beautifully written and I love the style, there are two observations to make about it.

One is that the dog in this scenario SHOULD have been restrained by the owner. It is the owner's legal responsibility. Some innocent victims have been killed in such incidents; some we have read about here at Websleuths. If the dog HAD bitten, it would NOT have been justifiable UNDER THE LAW. Most of us here would judge the dog owner to be in the wrong and the man to be within his legal rights to defend himself. It's really NOT an "all the rest of the factors don't really matter" situation AT ALL.

That's a would've/could've/should've thing... When you've got a barking dog facing you down you're not concerned about who it belongs to, where it came from. It's the 'MOMENT' that's your immediate concern none of the rest matters... The dog by nature has every right to defend itself from what it perceives as a threat just the same as the man does.

Secondly, bringing up Trayvon's suspension from school, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with how and why he was killed, and comparing that to Zimmerman's conscious CHOICE to get out of his truck and stalk Trayvon with a GUN is coming from two entirely different universes. One has exactly nothing to do with the other. The comment "trying to lay blame is of no material importance" is most intriguing. This is, in fact, what a fair, competent, unbiased investigation is ALL about. If what happened in that moment of the killing is due to GZ's WRONGFUL actions, then of course it matters. If Trayvon committed an act prior to that moment that merited his being shot, then of COURSE that matters.

'Reality is a funny thing' this is what can be taken from that. If I had left the house one minute earlier I could have avoided that car accident. It's the way of life weird things happen and 5 seconds here or there can change a world. A whole host of things fell into place that evening in Sanford in such a way that it cultivated into the tragedy we are speaking of today... I'm in no way blaming Martin or Zimmerman for anything in their past.


But if I had not stopped to THINK about this, I would thought you to be persuasive with wordcraft. I hope a jury will think with their rational brains and not emotional drama.
Fear not for it's no such thing... It's just critical thinking something I too hope a jury would utilize.

But again, I thank you for a nicely written piece. :)

Tulessa
03-31-2012, 09:15 PM
What racial slur on the 911 call? I've heard no racial slur on it and I've listened several times. At one point it sounds like he says punk and besides the audio is pretty poor to determine what was even said.

This whole ordeal reads like some Hollywood script that media is writing all the while helping to further eventual violence against GZ. Is this the 1800's where posses can form and take out someone and do anything they please? I hope not because if that does happen it will in fact be the media's fault. It will have set us back 150 years.

There's no reason to not believe GZ's story that he went back to his car after he hung up, since witness state he did. But to make for a more exciting story, GZ hunted down TM down and killed him in cold blood.

I'm not on GZ's side exactly, but I'm not on the media's side either. I'm on no witchhunt, but for facts. Someone died and GZ should have to do a some time over it. But I do not believe it was unless there is a reason otherwise. And tehre could be no one really knows but GZ himself and witness'

JB, I love your posts and insights, always have. I use to be a Paranormal investigator and because of my keen ears I had to review ALL audio. We took our cases seriously and were a TAPS family member. I distinctly hear the word C**N. With and without headphones.

justthinkin
03-31-2012, 09:15 PM
I just went to YouTube and listened to this child's screams of terror for the first time. I purposefully had waited for the news provided by the Sentinel earlier this evening.

I don't see how anyone's very soul can not be troubled by what I just heard. I don't see how a rage can not build for not only his killer, but those who lied to us with their assurances of these primal screams as coming from their kin being beaten by a child.

I dare you to take 47 seconds and listen to the early part of this tape. I dare you to listen and realize that tonight we have been told by TWO experts that the source of these screams is NOT GEORGE ZIMMERMAN.

Trayvon Martin 911 Tape Screaming "Help" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj4RHJ0taoc)

The cries for help are gut-wrenching. I can't imagine being one of the residents who heard it all. What a terrible guilt that must be, and yet, not knowing who was out there, fearing for your own safety, the intact safety of your own family if you had acted, and gone out....

Anyone here have the kind of equipment to squelch the 911 caller and dispatcher to pick up more clearly what the person in distress was yelling besides "help me?"

Is it the boy? I think I hear him yell for his Momma. Does anyone else hear, "Momma, help me?"

Tulessa
03-31-2012, 09:15 PM
Nite guys :)

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 09:16 PM
And the Martin lawyer on Fox just mischaracterized the results of the sound analysis. He said they said that the voice was Trayvon Martin's, not Zimmerman's. That is untrue. They just said that it's not Zimmerman's, and they stressed that they did not have Martin's to compare.

Tricia
03-31-2012, 09:16 PM
Was not aware of that thank you for informing me. I had been away from the site last couple of days... If you don't mind me asking did they give a reason or am I supposed to ignore everything written/spoken/or seen?

I haven't had a chance to weigh in so this is a good time to do so.

The Rush Limbaugh's and Al Sharpton's of the world are not doing anything but inflaming this case.

Our moderators have literally had to sit on this thread due to the vitriol being posted by almost everyone. Non Stop!!!!

If we could post about what the talking heads are saying without name calling and other violations of TOS we would allow you to discuss them.

But our moderators are over worked due to the continual violations and alerts on this thread and this thread only. I have never seen anything like it.

We are a true crime discussion forum. We discuss facts in cases.

Discuss the facts of the case. THE FACTS OF THE CASE and do not discuss what Rush, Al, or anyone else has to say about. Stick to the facts please. It's the only way we can carry on a true crime discussion about the case.

Tricia Griffith
Co-Owner Websleuths.com

JeannaT
03-31-2012, 09:17 PM
I'm sure the State will hire their own experts to do the voice analysis. But for now, the experts who have listened to the tape, say that it is not Zimmerman?

I only read something along the lines of "48% Zimmerman" whatever in the world that means.

What samples are the experts using to compare voices? I don't think I've heard either one of their voices - have family submitted samples of them?

Donjeta
03-31-2012, 09:18 PM
GZ would stop screaming for help too, if the man he feared was now incapacitated.

Either one who was screaming for help would stop immediately after the shot.

And GZ wasn't "so severely injured" that he couldn't get up. You don't have to take a beating before you can shoot if you have reasonable fear that you WILL be injured.

But he was severely injured, one hit away from being in diapers and fed with a spoon for the rest of her life. :waitasec: He could already have had a hemorrhage in his brain that would kill him shortly.

I think I wouldn't stop screaming for help in such a situation.

RANCH
03-31-2012, 09:19 PM
But that would be more for looking at recorded phone calls and wiretaps. It's very logical to think that they could match talking voices very easily. It's the difference in demeanor, register, and stress when someone screams like that that makes me wonder.

And one could say that a jury may have the same question that you have.

Donjeta
03-31-2012, 09:19 PM
I only read something along the lines of "48% Zimmerman" whatever in the world that means.

What samples are the experts using to compare voices? I don't think I've heard either one of their voices - have family submitted samples of them?

Audio recordings of Zimmerman's 911 call are publicly available.

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 09:20 PM
I only read something along the lines of "48% Zimmerman" whatever in the world that means.

What samples are the experts using to compare voices? I don't think I've heard either one of their voices - have family submitted samples of them?

You'd have to ask them? I have no idea? He doesn't say that it is Trayvon, but that he can say it is not Zimmerman's? I am not expert, but it seems as if he is saying that comparing Zimmerman's voice to the screams only gave him 48% and if it was Zimmerman's voice, it would have been 90% or more?

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 09:20 PM
And one could say that a jury may have the same question that you have.
If the jury were impartial...

Donjeta
03-31-2012, 09:20 PM
And the Martin lawyer on Fox just mischaracterized the results of the sound analysis. He said they said that the voice was Trayvon Martin's, not Zimmerman's. That is untrue. They just said that it's not Zimmerman's, and they stressed that they did not have Martin's to compare.

True. But if it wasn't Zimmerman, who else could it have been?

mfcmom
03-31-2012, 09:21 PM
Okay, I wasn't going to get into the voice analysist thing tonight because I wanted to do a little more research on these "experts", but I really need to know if they did this independently? Or were they hired by the State of Florida?

They were hired by the Orlando Sentinel.

JeannaT
03-31-2012, 09:21 PM
You'd have to ask them? I have no idea? He doesn't say that it is Trayvon, but that he can say it is not Zimmerman's? I am not expert, but it seems as if he is saying that comparing Zimmerman's voice to the screams only gave him 48% and if it was Zimmerman's voice, it would have been 90% or more?

Beats me.

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 09:22 PM
True. But if it wasn't Zimmerman, who else could it have been?
Well, they said that Zimmerman's voice didn't pass the "confirmation" threshold. What if Martin's did not, either?

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 09:22 PM
Uh link? The only I could find (wont post here) was how they were involved with BOW Black Foot soldiers... what is the website for this group?

They are the "NO LIMIT SOLDIERS" out of New Orleans. They are a group of rappers from the 1990's. They would also go by "NO LIMIT N*****." Master P, Silk the Shocker, etc... It was also a record label.

No Limit Records - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

justthinkin
03-31-2012, 09:25 PM
Wow! Thank you, thank you, thank you. Very good post with excellent embedded links. I had not yet read the one that notes the neighbors reporting GZ stalking them also and following them back to their homes. Creeeeeepy. This engenders a whole new batch of questions. :eek:

I think if you read the Huff Po article, it was only the one resident who wrote to them who reported GZ was harrassing others. No other residents have confirmed that that I know of.

Again, one person says something, and the stupid media runs with it with nothing to back up his statements which were submitted anonymously according to Huff PO. Don't see how it could be so anonymous since it was sent in an email.

It's entirely possible that the resident who wrote to them was the same one who got kicked out of the HOA meeting.

jjenny
03-31-2012, 09:25 PM
Well, they said that Zimmerman's voice didn't pass the "confirmation" threshold. What if Martin's did not, either?

I personally think both of them could have been screaming. Have these expert considered that possibility?

RANCH
03-31-2012, 09:25 PM
I only read something along the lines of "48% Zimmerman" whatever in the world that means.

What samples are the experts using to compare voices? I don't think I've heard either one of their voices - have family submitted samples of them?

If this guy testifies using things like 48% that it is Zimmerman, a jury could say it's almost 50/50 either way and disregard it entirely. JMO.

Ironhorse
03-31-2012, 09:25 PM
Do you have to do any kind of mental exam before getting a license to have a gun?

Do you have to do any kind of mental examination before getting a license to drive a car?

mercuriod
03-31-2012, 09:26 PM
I just went to YouTube and listened to this child's screams of terror for the first time. I purposefully had waited for the news provided by the Sentinel earlier this evening.

I don't see how anyone's very soul can not be troubled by what I just heard. I don't see how a rage can not build for not only his killer, but those who lied to us with their assurances of these primal screams as coming from their kin being beaten by a child.

I dare you to take 47 seconds and listen to the early part of this tape. I dare you to listen and realize that tonight we have been told by TWO experts that the source of these screams is NOT GEORGE ZIMMERMAN.

Trayvon Martin 911 Tape Screaming "Help" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj4RHJ0taoc)

Now that two experts have stated that in their opinion the voice yelling for help was NOT George Zimmerman, I am no longer of the mind to give GZ the benefit of doubt that I was before. I certainly hope that if the FBI voice analysis comes to the same conclusion that Angela Corey prosecutes Zimmerman to the fullest extent of the law AND that the federal government prosecutes him on Civil Rights charges.

Adrienne37
03-31-2012, 09:27 PM
I just went to YouTube and listened to this child's screams of terror for the first time. I purposefully had waited for the news provided by the Sentinel earlier this evening.

I don't see how anyone's very soul can not be troubled by what I just heard. I don't see how a rage can not build for not only his killer, but those who lied to us with their assurances of these primal screams as coming from their kin being beaten by a child.

I dare you to take 47 seconds and listen to the early part of this tape. I dare you to listen and realize that tonight we have been told by TWO experts that the source of these screams is NOT GEORGE ZIMMERMAN.

Trayvon Martin 911 Tape Screaming "Help" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj4RHJ0taoc)

I cannot listen again Papa. Ever since I listed the first time, it's bothered me so much to think of poor Trayvon laying there screaming for his life. I feel so bad that his family had to listen to that tape and that his mom had to get up to leave the room. Trust me, this is something that I will never ever ever ever never get over. I can close my eyes right now and I can hear him screaming, pleading for his life.

This is another reason why I say it wouldn't bother me in the least to see Zimmerman sentenced to death. This is why I say that his actions were premeditated. This is why I say that I can't understand why if it was something that spiraled out of control, why he didn't at least try to give Trayvon CPR. <modsnip>

~jmo~

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 09:27 PM
Well, they said that Zimmerman's voice didn't pass the "confirmation" threshold. What if Martin's did not, either?

Yes, but this is where things get a little iffy. If this "expert" had said it was Zimmerman's voice, people would take it as gospel because they have his voice recordings to go on. We all knew going into this, and we all still wanted the test done, that they might not have Trayvon's voice to go off on, and no one had a problem with that because we had Zimmerman's?

Anyways, hopefully the State of Florida has their own expert working on it and Trayvon's family has some audio/video of his voice so they can contribute to someone working for the State (and not a newspaper) in this aspect?

I'm just thinking about what would have happened/been said if this expert had come back and said it was Zimmerman? I don't think his supporters would have had a problem with it? Without or without Trayvon's voice.

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 09:27 PM
I don't have a problem with normal people owning guns. I do have problem with people that are not normal having guns. George Zimmerman, imo, is not normal or stable and hasn't been for a long time.

Do you have to do any kind of mental exam before getting a license to have a gun?
No. As long as you have not been adjudicated "mentally defective", and have no felony convictions or domestic violence convictions, you can get a permit. Different states have different rules, of course, but those are the universal disqualifiers.

Beyond Belief
03-31-2012, 09:29 PM
The lower tone of voice right before the gunshot sounds like "no, no". I had to turn the sound up real loud to hear. That tape gave me a very sleepless nite a few nights ago.

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 09:29 PM
Do you have to do any kind of mental examination before getting a license to drive a car?

Not that I can remember? Maybe we should? Heck, why not?

iluvmua
03-31-2012, 09:29 PM
I can't tell who's screaming, IMO, It's very hard to tell.

I also have no idea what TM's voice sounds like, only what GZ's voice sounds like.

legalmania
03-31-2012, 09:29 PM
If anyone is interested here is the F.S. that states under what conditions you can legally provide medical care.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0768/Sections/0768.13.html

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 09:30 PM
Yes, but this is where things get a little iffy. If this "expert" had said it was Zimmerman's voice, people would take it as gospel because they have his voice recordings to go on. We all knew going into this, and we all still wanted the test done, that they might not have Trayvon's voice to go off on, and no one had a problem with that because we had Zimmerman's?

Anyways, hopefully the State of Florida has their own expert working on it and Trayvon's family has some audio/video of his voice so they can contribute to someone working for the State (and not a newspaper) in this aspect?

I'm just thinking about what would have happened/been said if this expert had come back and said it was Zimmerman? I don't think his supporters would have had a problem with it? Without or without Trayvon's voice.
I've had my questions about voice comparisons since they first suggested it with regards to the screams. I figured I'd wait to see their methodology before I asked questions.

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 09:30 PM
No. As long as you have not been adjudicated "mentally defective", and have no felony convictions or domestic violence convictions, you can get a permit. Different states have different rules, of course, but those are the universal disqualifiers.

Man, I wish he had been arrested for that Domestic Violence thing with his ex-fiance. The world would have been a lot more peaceful if he had?

pinkflamingo
03-31-2012, 09:30 PM
Now that two experts have stated that in their opinion the voice yelling for help was NOT George Zimmerman, I am no longer of the mind to give GZ the benefit of doubt that I was before. I certainly hope that if the FBI voice analysis comes to the same conclusion that Angela Corey prosecutes Zimmerman to the fullest extent of the law AND that the federal government prosecutes him on Civil Rights charges.

They didn't say it wasn't george, they said it was 48% matched to George. This doesn't really mean anything..

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 09:31 PM
I've had my questions about voice comparisons since they first suggested it with regards to the screams. I figured I'd wait to see their methodology before I asked questions.

BBM This word brings back so many bad memories for me from a certain Frye Hearing I watched many moons ago. :banghead:

OneLove
03-31-2012, 09:31 PM
That's a would've/could've/should've thing... When you've got a barking dog facing you down you're not concerned about who it belongs to, where it came from. It's the 'MOMENT' that's your immediate concern none of the rest matters... The dog by nature has every right to defend itself from what it perceives as a threat just the same as the man does.



'Reality is a funny thing' this is what can be taken from that. If I had left the house one minute earlier I could have avoided that car accident. It's the way of life weird things happen and 5 seconds here or there can change a world. A whole host of things fell into place that evening in Sanford in such a way that it cultivated into the tragedy we are speaking of today... I'm in no way blaming Martin or Zimmerman for anything in their past.



Fear not for it's no such thing... It's just critical thinking something I too hope a jury would utilize.

I think the major thing to consider is the concept that "laying blame is of no material importance". So, let's use instead the phrase "accepting responsibility", since I, too, agree blame serves no one. Who is responsible and therefore accountable?
IF the man had climbed over a private fence and encountered an attacking dog, he is liable for any injury he does the dog, and the property for that matter, because he made a conscious choice to commit an illegal action. If the dog encountered the man on the man's property, the dog owner is liable for injury to the man or his property because he committed an illegal action.

I feel that leading people to believe that situations like this just happen as a matter of coincidence and that the factors LEADING UP TO the event causing injury is of no importance, even in that moment at hand, is advocating a sense of irresponsibility. It is a sure thing that the factors leading up to and the conscious choices made by people involved have EVERYTHING to do with who MUST accept responsibility after the fact. It's just the way life is. And if we want to use the word "blame" synonymously, it really only makes a difference in that "blame" is more inflammatory from a neurolinguistic perspective than "holding responsibility for" or "holding accountable for" the outcome.

If the outcome caused great harm, who is responsible and accountable, and to what extent? Bring on the investigation. :)

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 09:32 PM
Man, I wish he had been arrested for that Domestic Violence thing with his ex-fiance. The world would have been a lot more peaceful if he had?

He would have had to have been convicted, not just arrested.

justthinkin
03-31-2012, 09:33 PM
But he was severely injured, one hit away from being in diapers and fed with a spoon for the rest of her life. :waitasec: He could already have had a hemorrhage in his brain that would kill him shortly.

I think I wouldn't stop screaming for help in such a situation.

You hit on something that troubled me the first time I listened to that tape. The fact that the screaming stopped the instant the shot was fired.

I'm trying hard to stay on the fence on this one, but something about that just seemed out of the normal or odd as if the person who'd been screaming was the one that got shot.

If I was ever in any kind of similar situation where I had to shoot someone to save my own life, and I was screaming for help. I think after I did what I had to do, I would be wailing for taking another human being's life. I too would still be pleading for help between my cries.

jjenny
03-31-2012, 09:33 PM
The lower tone of voice right before the gunshot sounds like "no, no". I had to turn the sound up real loud to hear. That tape gave me a very sleepless nite a few nights ago.

I also think it's sounds "no, no" right before the shot.
I hear "help, help" in the beginning.

suzihawk
03-31-2012, 09:34 PM
Imo, this tragic case has nothing to do with racial profiling. Nor do I think this was a hate crime. And yes, I did hear the racial slur in the 911 call. I simply do not feel that slur in conjunction with the unfolding of events, as I presently understand them (i.e., from listening to the 911 calls, link (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html) ), supports the contention that this tragedy was a hate crime as outlined in the "Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act" ( link (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:S.909:) ) That is, I do not think GZ targeted and proceeded to shoot Trayvon purely bc he was black.

I think instead, this is a case of a hotheaded, wanna-be cop, who, from my read, regularly harassed neighborhood residents ( link (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/trayvon-martin-case-george-zimmerman_n_1392591.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Chp-laptop%7Cdl2%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D148197) ) and made chronic nuisance calls to the SPD ( link (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html) ). Otherwise put, imnsho, this guy was a accident waiting to happen. Someone who was bound to shoot someone, anyone, sooner or later. The recent voice findings ( link (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty) ), imho, refutes GZ's claim that the shooting was an act of self defense. Which, again, supports my contention that this guy was a walking time-bomb.

Aside: I wish they would post all of GZ's 911 calls as well as any other voice recordings they might have of the guy, bc, imho, he def sounds intoxicated in this call. ( link (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/911/call1.wav) ) And, in light of the number of calls he made over the past eight years, I cannot help but to wonder if there might be an underlying substance abuse issue, or possibly even some sort of brain injury, that might explain (not excuse, of course), his, imho, reckless behavior.

^THIS!

This is what I've thought and posted from the very start but would never have been able to sum it up so brilliantly as you have. I do, however, believe he has a propensity toward some racial bias. He's a frustrated wannabe that enjoyed being the HDIC and using that 'power' to bully others. Scary and dangerous - very dangerous.

Concerned Papa
03-31-2012, 09:34 PM
and the martin lawyer on fox just mischaracterized the results of the sound analysis. He said they said that the voice was trayvon martin's, not zimmerman's. That is untrue. They just said that it's not zimmerman's, and they stressed that they did not have martin's to compare.

2-1=1

LambChop
03-31-2012, 09:34 PM
If this guy testifies using things like 48% that it is Zimmerman, a jury could say it's almost 50/50 either way and disregard it entirely. JMO.

IMO they only had GZ's voice pattern to go by. We haven't heard anything with TM's voice. OS would not have access to Martin's voice but I'm sure the FBI has something, a voicemail, a video, something with his voice on it. And I bet the FBI knows exactly who it was and has known for awhile. jmo

OneLove
03-31-2012, 09:35 PM
Anyone know when an OFFICIAL statement might be made by anyone? The differing parties, misinformation, misrepresentation, and "sides" are starting to get tiring. Someone pull this mess together, please?

jjenny
03-31-2012, 09:35 PM
If this guy testifies using things like 48% that it is Zimmerman, a jury could say it's almost 50/50 either way and disregard it entirely. JMO.

If both of them are screaming then I would think Zimmerman should come in at 50 %.

Donjeta
03-31-2012, 09:35 PM
Well, they said that Zimmerman's voice didn't pass the "confirmation" threshold. What if Martin's did not, either?

Well, then we would either look for a third person or conclude that the test has no validity due to one or more error factors and should be ignored.

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 09:35 PM
2-1=1
I've already explained this.

What happens if Martin's voice scored just as poorly? There's a reason they didn't unequivocally state that it wasn't Zimmerman, and stressed they had not tested Martin's voice.

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 09:36 PM
He would have had to have been convicted, not just arrested.

Really? Geesh! :floorlaugh: I just can't win tonight.

Well, I wish he was convicted too.

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 09:36 PM
Well, then we would either look for a third person or conclude that the test has no validity due to one or more error factors and should be ignored.
I'd go more with the latter.

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 09:37 PM
True, if not Zimmerman's, not yet proven Trayvon's. But it's highly doubtful that a third party ran out there and screamed help help help like bloody murder was happening and then inextricably disappeared the moment of the gunshot. Just sayin.
I'm more saying that the test itself may not be valid in this scenario.

jjenny
03-31-2012, 09:37 PM
Well, then we would either look for a third person or conclude that the test has no validity due to one or more error factors and should be ignored.

Yep, that's about right. They got a tape of Zimmerman talking normally and they are trying to compare it to someone screaming. What is the accuracy of what they are trying to do?

RANCH
03-31-2012, 09:38 PM
I like the other expert, Ed Primeau, methods. Forensic experience. What is that? Can you get a degree in that?
Not all experts rely on biometrics. Ed Primeau, a Michigan-based audio engineer and forensics expert, is not a believer in the technology's use in courtroom settings.

He relies instead on audio enhancement and human analysis based on forensic experience. After listening closely to the 911 tape on which the screams are heard, Primeau also has a strong opinion.

"I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

songline
03-31-2012, 09:39 PM
One of our wonderful members, I forget the username, brought up any tapes that may have been taken at 7-11. At first I was like, what would that have to do with what happened in the complex? Now that I think about it, I think everything leading up to the shooting that night is important.

I don't know how long 7-11's keep their tapes? I can only hope that the LE investigating this shooting had enough intelligence that when they heard Trayvon had gone to the store, that they immediately went and got the tapes.

Also, with the store being so close, that could have been the store Zimmerman was also heading to? I know that Zimmerman said he was on his way to the store, but I would like to rule out that he had already been to the store? Entrance gate cameras should show this too?

Does anyone know what building Zimmerman lived in? Does it show on that map what building he lives in?
i WOULD LOVE TO SEE THOSE TAPES IF ANYONE HAS THEM
FROM THE 7/11

jjenny
03-31-2012, 09:41 PM
I like the other expert, Ed Primeau, methods. Forensic experience. What is that? Can you get a degree in that?


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty
He believes it's Trayvon because that's a young man screaming?
Zimmerman ain't exactly an ancient man himself.

Boytwnmom
03-31-2012, 09:41 PM
it's like with DNA, the higher the "match" the more likely it is the same person. From what I understand the 48% excludes it being GZ's voice. So that method focused on GZ. The other method did not exclude GZ it instead concluded it was Trayvon so essentially one test was a negative for GZ and the other was a positive for Trayvon.

The two experts here actually used different methods to do the voice match. The 48% one was by Tom Owen who used voice identification software, Easy Voice Biometrics" to say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman.

The other person, Ed Primeau, used audio enhancement and human analysis based on forensic experience to conclude: I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331,0,250481.story

I think they need to compare Trayvon's voice to be conclusive. They only tested Zimmerman's and got a 48% match. Whatever that means

LambChop
03-31-2012, 09:43 PM
I've already explained this.

What happens if Martin's voice scored just as poorly? There's a reason they didn't unequivocally state that it wasn't Zimmerman, and stressed they had not tested Martin's voice.

They can't. They don't have it. Have we ever heard his voice in the media???? But they do have GZ's. jmo

Boytwnmom
03-31-2012, 09:43 PM
I just posted about them as I was confused too and read the whole thing to understand the two different tests, one which excluded GZ and the other which concluded it was TM.



And the Martin lawyer on Fox just mischaracterized the results of the sound analysis. He said they said that the voice was Trayvon Martin's, not Zimmerman's. That is untrue. They just said that it's not Zimmerman's, and they stressed that they did not have Martin's to compare.

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 09:44 PM
Yep, that's about right. They got a tape of Zimmerman talking normally and they are trying to compare it to someone screaming. What is the accuracy of what they are trying to do?

If they had come back with the conclusion that these were Zimmerman's screams, would you have these same concerns? I'm just wondering because I was willing to believe they were Zimmerman's screams if it came back as his voice?

Donjeta
03-31-2012, 09:44 PM
They didn't say it wasn't george, they said it was 48% matched to George. This doesn't really mean anything..



Did you read the article?
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

It's not George Zimmerman crying for help on 911 recording, 2 experts say
His result: It was not George Zimmerman who called for help.
Tom Owen, forensic consultant for Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence, used voice identification software to rule out Zimmerman.
Another expert contacted by the Sentinel, utilizing different techniques, came to the same conclusion.
Zimmerman claims self-defense in the shooting and told police he was the one screaming for help. But these experts say the evidence tells a different story.
"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says,
"I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."

By my reckoning that's seven different ways they said it's not George.

The 48 % match doesn't mean anything to us because we're unfamiliar with the field but it means something to people who do this for a living and the expert seems to think it means that it's not the same person.

jjenny
03-31-2012, 09:44 PM
I just posted about them as I was confused too and read the whole thing to understand the two different tests, one which excluded GZ and the other which concluded it was TM.

The who concluded it was TM because person screaming was young (in his opinion)? I don't buy that for a second. You can't determine an age by voice alone. For instance, I sound very young and when people call they ask to talk to my parents.

CathyinTexas
03-31-2012, 09:44 PM
It is gut wrenching, I can only imagine a parent's nightmare hearing that, knowing that was their child's last moments.

If these are Trayvon's screams ( I do believe that they are ), when GZ just came out and said that he was calling for help but no one came, without being questioned, he had no way to know that the actual cries and shot would be recorded. Did he say this because he thought at that time that it couldn't be disproven? He knew there were screams he would guess that others may have heard screams, but he thinks they'll never be able to prove that it wasn't him if he says that it was?

JMHO

It makes this even more evil in my opinion. There doesn't seem to be a conscience here.

Dr.Fessel
03-31-2012, 09:45 PM
:fence:Yep, that's about right. They got a tape of Zimmerman talking normally and they are trying to compare it to someone screaming. What is the accuracy of what they are trying to do?

These are two experts that give testimony in court and get thousands of dollars for doing it.

They know other experts are working on the tapes too and I think they would be the last people in the world that would want to run out and give these results if they can't back them up. More times they are wrong the less they will be called to testify.

Nova
03-31-2012, 09:45 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by having enough to win? There's no guaranty of a win no matter what evidence you have in a jury trial. I used your words "indisputable evidence" in my post because that's what you hope to see. I was wondering what will happen if we don't see "indisputable evidence".

I'm not sure what started the discussion about "slam dunk cases" and "indisputable evidence". I'm sure we all know those aren't legal terms.

I believe a DA's ethics require her to believe she can prove her case beyond a reasonable doubt. Otherwise, she would be "deceiving" a jury by asking it to convict on evidence she herself believes to be insufficient. As an officer of the court, she isn't allowed to knowingly lie.

In cases where the culprit seems obvious to some (the Ramseys, say), but no charges are filed, a lot of posters will argue that the DA should just "go for it". I don't believe she can just "roll the dice" and "see what happens", not ethically.

RANCH
03-31-2012, 09:47 PM
He believes it's Trayvon because that's a young man screaming?
Zimmerman ain't exactly an ancient man himself.

I think that the Orlando Sentinel may have had a hard time finding two "experts" to do their testing. So they ended up with Ed Primeau. JMO.

Adrienne37
03-31-2012, 09:48 PM
They can't. They don't have it. Have we ever heard his voice in the media???? But they do have GZ's. jmo

I haven't heard his voice anywhere but hopefully he had a recorded message on his voicemail on his cell phone or perhaps one of his family members/friends have a message that he might have left them that they saved.




~jmo~

legalmania
03-31-2012, 09:49 PM
Sanford is considered a high crime area. Is this the reason for Zimmermans actions?

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Sanford-Florida.html

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 09:49 PM
I'm personally amazed at what forensics can do? I'd never be able to be an expert. I'm not interested in disecting bugs, studying plants, smelling human decomposition, listening to voices, etc... but I do love learning about how other people do it.

iluvmua
03-31-2012, 09:49 PM
Can anyone breakdown what the person screaming is saying?

When I first listened to this tape I thought I heard someone say "Oh My God Help!

songline
03-31-2012, 09:50 PM
I just went to YouTube and listened to this child's screams of terror for the first time. I purposefully had waited for the news provided by the Sentinel earlier this evening.

I don't see how anyone's very soul can not be troubled by what I just heard. I don't see how a rage can not build for not only his killer, but those who lied to us with their assurances of these primal screams as coming from their kin being beaten by a child.

I dare you to take 47 seconds and listen to the early part of this tape. I dare you to listen and realize that tonight we have been told by TWO experts that the source of these screams is NOT GEORGE ZIMMERMAN.

Trayvon Martin 911 Tape Screaming "Help" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj4RHJ0taoc)

Sorry Papa,
I am not saying these reports are wrong That is NOT what I am saying at all:
I am so not trusting experts on weekends,
I don’t know why rush out on the weekend to do a report?
Why would the DA come out last Sunday to the scene of the shooting?
Those thing never sit right with me at all.
So If you don’t mind I will wait for some confirmation on these reports.

Didn’t the guy at the funeral Parlor say that TM had no marks on him at all.
I am totally confused with screams like that
whoever is screaming should have some marks of a struggle.

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 09:53 PM
The who concluded it was TM because person screaming was young (in his opinion)? I don't buy that for a second. You can't determine an age by voice alone. For instance, I sound very young and when people call they ask to talk to my parents.

I can agree with this part. Not the same thing, but I was flying one time and I was in the emergency exit aisle, and the flight attendant came up to me and told me I would have to move because you had to be a certain age to sit in that aisle. I was WAY past that age!

But after they made me read the booklet with the intructions on what my job was (letting everyone off the plane before me in an emergency), I asked them to move me because I wasn't going to agree with that. :floorlaugh:


But yes, I don't agree with them being able to say by the voice "It was a young man." I can see if they were taking Zimmerman's voice and comparing it... maybe?

LambChop
03-31-2012, 09:53 PM
I think that the Orlando Sentinel may have had a hard time finding two "experts" to do their testing. So they ended up with Ed Primeau. JMO.

I would think TM's family provided the something with TM's voice on it so testing could be done. Either to the FBI and/or SA. It could be the family already knows it was TM on that tape and OS got wind of it and decided to have their own test done themselves just to break the story. jmo

vlpate
03-31-2012, 09:53 PM
Wow! Thank you, thank you, thank you. Very good post with excellent embedded links. I had not yet read the one that notes the neighbors reporting GZ stalking them also and following them back to their homes. Creeeeeepy. This engenders a whole new batch of questions. :eek:

I have questions as well.

"According to the Miami Herald, Zuazo said that three years earlier, Zimmerman attacked her while the two were driving to a counseling session. Zuazo said she popped her gum in his face and he repeatedly smacked her in the face. In January 2002, she added, Zimmerman became enraged that she had come home late. They wrestled and he threw her on the bed, smacking her, according to the newspaper."
Trymaine Lee - Huffington blog (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/trayvon-martin-case-george-zimmerman_n_1392591.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Chp-laptop%7Cdl2%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D148197)(Original ly posted by shadowraiths)

George Zimmerman is 28.
So, they lived together in 2001, when he was 17 or 18, that's awfully young, he was just a child. The incident with the phone was worse than the two slapping incidents? I'm assuming so since she only reported only the one.

Popping her gum in his face in a car while he's driving is atrocious behavior....I'd stop the car and make her get out.

Nova
03-31-2012, 09:55 PM
Imo, this tragic case has nothing to do with racial profiling. Nor do I think this was a hate crime. And yes, I did hear the racial slur in the 911 call. I simply do not feel that slur in conjunction with the unfolding of events, as I presently understand them....

Sorry to snip your excellent post. I hope everyone reads it in its entirety on page 1 of this thread.

But you hint at an interesting question: suppose hypothetically that one believes African-American teens have been committing burglaries in the neighborhood and then getting away because police response times are slow. And further suppose that GZ was fed up and decided that THIS AA teen wasn't getting away, not tonight, enough was enough.

Is that a HATE crime? It has a racial element, certainly, but the animus is directed at a small, CRIMINAL subset of black youths, not necessarily at African-Americans in general. Racism being a complicated impulse, one might well have close AA friends and simultaneously feel a deep resentment at black criminals who were robbing one's neighbors.

Or to put it more briefly, assuming the above, GZ shot TM because GZ believed TM was yet another black youth burglarizing nearby homes, NOT merely because TM was black. Still not self-defense, but is it a hate crime under Florida law?

Donjeta
03-31-2012, 09:55 PM
Sorry Papa,
I am not saying these reports are wrong That is NOT what I am saying at all:
I am so not trusting experts on weekends,
I don’t know why rush out on the weekend to do a report?
Why would the DA come out last Sunday to the scene of the shooting?
Those thing never sit right with me at all.
So If you don’t mind I will wait for some confirmation on these reports.

Didn’t the guy at the funeral Parlor say that TM had no marks on him at all.
I am totally confused with screams like that
whoever is screaming should have some marks of a struggle.

There is nothing in the article that says the experts did their analyses on a weekend, and this is hardly rushing IMO, Trayvon died more than a month ago and there have been articles coming out most of the days.

Beyond Belief
03-31-2012, 09:57 PM
I know I am going to have nightmares abt this again tonight. But, now I am wondering if Trayvon really is on top of GZ but because he saw that gun coming out and tried to prevent GZ from getting his hands on it. So it may have been a fight over the gun, but to keep GZ from getting it out. There had to be a very good reason for a fight.

jjenny
03-31-2012, 09:57 PM
I can agree with this part. Not the same thing, but I was flying one time and I was in the emergency exit aisle, and the flight attendant came up to me and told me I would have to move because you had to be a certain age to sit in that aisle. I was WAY past that age!

But after they made me read the booklet with the intructions on what my job was (letting everyone off the plane before me in an emergency), I asked them to move me because I wasn't going to agree with that. :floorlaugh:


But yes, I don't agree with them being able to say by the voice "It was a young man." I can see if they were taking Zimmerman's voice and comparing it... maybe?

I don't look like a little child but I must sound like a little child because when I get phone calls and answer people ask me if they can talk to my mommy.
:floorlaugh:

Nova
03-31-2012, 09:57 PM
maybe indisputable evidence was the wrong phrasing. But she is going to be convinced by the evidence that it was self defense, or she is going to be convinced that it was not....and even if there is not indisputable evidence it will have to go to trial, but I don't believe that it is going to be, well, we just don't know for sure so we aren't going to do anything. I firmly believe that there will be a preponderance of evidence one way or the other. IMO JMHO and stuff.

As I said above, I believe "probable cause" ("preponderance of evidence" is a similar, but civil burden) is enough to charge, but I think the DA has to believe she has proof beyond a reasonable doubt to actually go to trial. Charges get dismissed all the time because DAs can't meet this burden.

Donjeta
03-31-2012, 09:58 PM
Sorry to snip your excellent post. I hope everyone reads it in its entirety on page 1 of this thread.

But you hint at an interesting question: suppose hypothetically that one believes African-American teens have been committing burglaries in the neighborhood and then getting away because police response times are slow. And further suppose that GZ was fed up and decided that THIS AA teen wasn't getting away, not tonight, enough was enough.

Is that a HATE crime? It has a racial element, certainly, but the animus is directed at a small, CRIMINAL subset of black youths, not necessarily at African-Americans in general. Racism being a complicated impulse, one might well have close AA friends and simultaneously feel a deep resentment at black criminals who were robbing one's neighbors.

Or to put it more briefly, assuming the above, GZ shot TM because GZ believed TM was yet another black youth burglarizing nearby homes, NOT merely because TM was black. Still not self-defense, but is it a hate crime under Florida law?

Well, I don't know Florida law but if you ask me it's a hate crime under those premises, since GZ didn't actually have any evidence that TM was part of a small criminal subset of black youths burglarizing homes, he just knew that TM was black.

Boytwnmom
03-31-2012, 09:59 PM
we aren't. Not that I can vouch for these particular experts, but there's lots of things that seem one way to an untrained eye or ear or whatever but which experts in that area have a different method for discerning. And, of course, each side can usually find an expert to say almost anything so who knows what will be said next but this was hired by the paper which would likely sell copies regardless of the test results and I assume the experts are neutrals in this matter.



The who concluded it was TM because person screaming was young (in his opinion)? I don't buy that for a second. You can't determine an age by voice alone. For instance, I sound very young and when people call they ask to talk to my parents.

legalmania
03-31-2012, 09:59 PM
So there has been quite a few robberies in the complex where Zimmerman lives. Wouldn't they be in a car, truck or van? Not to many people rob homes then walk down the street with a T.V. or dvd player.

<modsnip>

songline
03-31-2012, 10:00 PM
Can anyone breakdown what the person screaming is saying?

When I first listened to this tape I thought I heard someone say "Oh My God Help!

I can not make out any other then the word help. :( But I can tell there is fear....:yes:

Donjeta
03-31-2012, 10:00 PM
I don't look like a little child but I must sound like a little child because when I get phone calls and answer people ask me if they can talk to my mommy.
:floorlaugh:

Me too and it's totally annoying but I've never heard a grown man complain of the same.

gxm
03-31-2012, 10:01 PM
I can agree with this part. Not the same thing, but I was flying one time and I was in the emergency exit aisle, and the flight attendant came up to me and told me I would have to move because you had to be a certain age to sit in that aisle. I was WAY past that age!

But after they made me read the booklet with the intructions on what my job was (letting everyone off the plane before me in an emergency), I asked them to move me because I wasn't going to agree with that. :floorlaugh:


But yes, I don't agree with them being able to say by the voice "It was a young man." I can see if they were taking Zimmerman's voice and comparing it... maybe?

I, too, have been told I sound younger than I am.

IMO, GZ is a young man. He isn't even 30 yet, is he?

Also, IMO, if/when this goes to trial we are going to see the prosecution expert say one thing, and the defense expert say another. The evidence in this case is just too much open to interpretation.

RANCH
03-31-2012, 10:01 PM
I would think TM's family provided the something with TM's voice on it so testing could be done. Either to the FBI and/or SA. It could be the family already knows it was TM on that tape and OS got wind of it and decided to have their own test done themselves just to break the story. jmo

If they did provide a sample of TM's voice ,it didn't make it to the Orlando Sentinels experts. If the Orlando Sentinel had information regarding FBI testing why wouldn't they use that instead of the "Forensic Experience" guy.

Nova
03-31-2012, 10:01 PM
I just went to YouTube and listened to this child's screams of terror for the first time. I purposefully had waited for the news provided by the Sentinel earlier this evening.

I don't see how anyone's very soul can not be troubled by what I just heard. I don't see how a rage can not build for not only his killer, but those who lied to us with their assurances of these primal screams as coming from their kin being beaten by a child.

I dare you to take 47 seconds and listen to the early part of this tape. I dare you to listen and realize that tonight we have been told by TWO experts that the source of these screams is NOT GEORGE ZIMMERMAN....

I agree. And now that we are reasonably sure the screaming is coming from Martin, I wonder what people imagine was happening? Were TM and GZ wrestling for the gun? Was TM just standing there pleading for his life?

I realize no one knows for sure. I'm just wondering what people think.

Concerned Papa
03-31-2012, 10:02 PM
I've already explained this.

What happens if Martin's voice scored just as poorly? There's a reason they didn't unequivocally state that it wasn't Zimmerman, and stressed they had not tested Martin's voice.BBM

What am I missing here?

A leading expert in the field of forensic voice identification sought to answer that question by analyzing the recordings for the Orlando Sentinel.

His result: It was not George Zimmerman who called for help.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty


Tom Owen, forensic consultant for Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence, used voice identification software to rule out Zimmerman.

Owen, a court-qualified expert witness and former chief engineer for the New York Public Library's Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives of Recorded Sound, is an authority on biometric voice analysis — a computerized process comparing attributes of voices to determine whether they match.

“You can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

There are no stated qualifiers subject to conditions or exceptions. Each state their conclusions as absolute with scientific certainty and therefore by definition, unequivocal.

Donjeta
03-31-2012, 10:03 PM
I have questions as well.

"According to the Miami Herald, Zuazo said that three years earlier, Zimmerman attacked her while the two were driving to a counseling session. Zuazo said she popped her gum in his face and he repeatedly smacked her in the face. In January 2002, she added, Zimmerman became enraged that she had come home late. They wrestled and he threw her on the bed, smacking her, according to the newspaper."
Trymaine Lee - Huffington blog (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/trayvon-martin-case-george-zimmerman_n_1392591.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Chp-laptop%7Cdl2%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D148197)(Original ly posted by shadowraiths)

George Zimmerman is 28.
So, they lived together in 2001, when he was 17 or 18, that's awfully young, he was just a child. The incident with the phone was worse than the two slapping incidents? I'm assuming so since she only reported only the one.

Popping her gum in his face in a car while he's driving is atrocious behavior....I'd stop the car and make her get out.

Very suspicious behavior.

She was lucky she didn't get shot.

songline
03-31-2012, 10:03 PM
So there has been quite a few robberies in the complex where Zimmerman lives. Wouldn't they be in a car, truck or van? Not to many people rob homes then walk down the street with a T.V. or dvd player.

<modsnip>


:floorlaugh: running down the street with a TV.
How about running down the street with Jewelry, Money Credit cards, Cell, I pod, like this small stuff. :)

Salem
03-31-2012, 10:05 PM
Do you have to do any kind of mental examination before getting a license to drive a car?

Well, in most places you do have to take a written test and be able to drive the car within the traffic laws.

I don't know of anywhere that tests any safety measures for owning a gun.

Just sayin'

Salem

vlpate
03-31-2012, 10:05 PM
It makes this even more evil in my opinion. There doesn't seem to be a conscience here.

BEM: Where?

I hear the scream of someone desperate for help, Trayvon was past puberty. It could have been either of them.

jjenny
03-31-2012, 10:05 PM
I can not make out any other then the word help. :( But I can tell there is fear....:yes:

I think I hear help in the beginning and no in the end.

legalmania
03-31-2012, 10:07 PM
:floorlaugh: running down the street with a TV.
How about running down the street with Jewelry, Money Credit cards, small stuff.

It's not impossible but the article said it was a group of black men. That bothers me. Was there proof they were all black?

iluvmua
03-31-2012, 10:07 PM
I know I am going to have nightmares abt this again tonight. But, now I am wondering if Trayvon really is on top of GZ but because he saw that gun coming out and tried to prevent GZ from getting his hands on it. So it may have been a fight over the gun, but to keep GZ from getting it out. There had to be a very good reason for a fight.

I'm thinking this is a very strong possibility that they were fighting over the gun

and it's also a very strong possibility that if TM was on top of GZ hitting him, banging his head on the sidewalk, GZ was reaching for his gun and then TM tried to prevent GZ from talking out his gun and that is why they might also have been fighting over the gun.

JMO

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 10:07 PM
BBM

What am I missing here?






There are no stated qualifiers subject to conditions or exceptions. Each state their conclusions as absolute with scientific certainty and therefore by definition, unequivocal.
I was referring to Owen, and that entire paragraph is:

"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen says, stressing that he cannot confirm the voice as Trayvon's, because he didn't have a sample of the teen's voice to compare.

It seems like that last part is a pretty big exception to me. He only has half of the puzzle. You cannot determine validity in a certain scenario without a control group. "Reasonable scientific certainty" means just that - he's taken what he has into account and can reasonably make a hypothesis, however, he cannot confirm it was Trayvon's voice.

rotterdam
03-31-2012, 10:07 PM
I just went to YouTube and listened to this child's screams of terror for the first time. I purposefully had waited for the news provided by the Sentinel earlier this evening.

I don't see how anyone's very soul can not be troubled by what I just heard. I don't see how a rage can not build for not only his killer, but those who lied to us with their assurances of these primal screams as coming from their kin being beaten by a child.

I dare you to take 47 seconds and listen to the early part of this tape. I dare you to listen and realize that tonight we have been told by TWO experts that the source of these screams is NOT GEORGE ZIMMERMAN.

Trayvon Martin 911 Tape Screaming "Help" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj4RHJ0taoc)

Why would the person firing the shot making such a heartbreaking penetrating scream. Think about it. GZ had a choice.

SuziQ
03-31-2012, 10:07 PM
I only read something along the lines of "48% Zimmerman" whatever in the world that means.

What samples are the experts using to compare voices? I don't think I've heard either one of their voices - have family submitted samples of them?

You forgot the rest....
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

(snip)
The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.

LambChop
03-31-2012, 10:08 PM
If they did provide a sample of TM's voice ,it didn't make it to the Orlando Sentinels experts. If the Orlando Sentinel had information regarding FBI testing why wouldn't they use that instead of the "Forensic Experience" guy.

FBI or SA wouldn't release that to the paper just because they wanted to test their voices they're in the middle of an investigation. I'm just saying it's possible OS got wind of the results and decided to do their own with just GZ's voice. They know LE is doing it so they figured they had nothing to loose by just doing GZ's voice. jmo

jjenny
03-31-2012, 10:08 PM
BEM: Where?

I hear the scream of someone desperate for help, Trayvon was past puberty. It could have been either of them.

Or it could have been both of them. If they are both fighting it only stand to reason both could be screaming.

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 10:09 PM
I, too, have been told I sound younger than I am.

IMO, GZ is a young man. He isn't even 30 yet, is he?

Also, IMO, if/when this goes to trial we are going to see the prosecution expert say one thing, and the defense expert say another. The evidence in this case is just too much open to interpretation.

George is not old by any means. 28-years-old is still young. I'm just a tad older than him and I am still young, darn it! :floorlaugh:

jjenny
03-31-2012, 10:09 PM
You forgot the rest....
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

(snip)
The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.

He is comparing the tape of him talking to the tape of someone screaming. So why is he expecting 90 % match?

legalmania
03-31-2012, 10:11 PM
IMO when the police dispatcher said don't follow him that should have ended that. Zimmerman should have stopped. I think from that point on Zimmerman took the law into his own hands.

LambChop
03-31-2012, 10:12 PM
I was referring to Owen, and that entire paragraph is:



It seems like that last part is a pretty big exception to me. He only has half of the puzzle. You cannot determine validity in a certain scenario without a control group. "Reasonable scientific certainty" means just that - he's taken what he has into account and can reasonably make a hypothesis, however, he cannot confirm it was Trayvon's voice.

If they don't have TM's voice for comparison they are left with process of elimination. Right??? Why would they need a control group? They are comparing the voice on the 911 calls, and they have quite a few, with GZ's voice pattern which they have. There were only two people involved. jmo

claudicici
03-31-2012, 10:13 PM
Honestly I was almost hoping the scream would turn out to be GZ.
Because he is alive.
Realizing it was Trayvon screaming in agony and now he is dead is just too much to take.

RANCH
03-31-2012, 10:13 PM
FBI or SA wouldn't release that to the paper just because they wanted to test their voices they're in the middle of an investigation. I'm just saying it's possible OS got wind of the results and decided to do their own with just GZ's voice. They know LE is doing it so they figured they had nothing to loose by just doing GZ's voice. jmo
If the Orlando Sentinel "got wind" of any LE/FBI test results why wouldn't they publish it? The only thing that comes to mind is to protect a source. But we don't know do we?

JeannaT
03-31-2012, 10:14 PM
IMO when the police dispatcher said don't follow him that should have ended that. Zimmerman should have stopped. I think from that point on Zimmerman took the law into his own hands.

Well, yes. But the dispatcher didn't say that.

The dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that". IMHO, meaning, "we can find him, thanks anyway." This is in no way the same thing as LE saying "get back".

Concerned Papa
03-31-2012, 10:14 PM
I was referring to Owen, and that entire paragraph is:



It seems like that last part is a pretty big exception to me. He only has half of the puzzle. You cannot determine validity in a certain scenario without a control group. "Reasonable scientific certainty" means just that - he's taken what he has into account and can reasonably make a hypothesis, however, he cannot confirm it was Trayvon's voice.

There was a control group. It numbered two. One has been scientifically eliminated. What does a reasonable analysis tell you as to whose screams those are?

rotterdam
03-31-2012, 10:14 PM
I don't think GZ was in shock. He didn't have the right affect or tone when he was supposedly suspicious of Trayvon. I have wondered if when he had his hands on Trayvon after the shooting if he was looking for a weapon or just discovered all he had on him was the Skittles, Tea and phone, and that is why he was pacing with his hands on his head. I wonder if the police got samples of the blood that was supposedly on him at the scene. I am guessing they didn't. I can't believe that they would allow the EMTs to "clean him up" before doing that. According to a retired NYPD officer they didn't bag his hands and shoes either, which is always protocol in a shooting.

IIRC GZ thought it would all blown over according to his brother. Killing another human being that looked suspicious, was not really such a big deal . Excuse while I puke:sick:

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 10:14 PM
If they don't have TM's voice for comparison they are left with process of elimination. Right??? Why would they need a control group? They are comparing the voice on the 911 calls, and they have quite a few, with GZ's voice pattern which they have. There were only two people involved. jmo
Because there's always the question of the reliability of the test. What if the test itself is flawed?

They could very well try to confirm it was Martin's voice, and due to a downfall of the software or because there were two screams that are conflated, or because the quality of the recorded screams are dubious, the results may turn out exactly the same or worse.

gxm
03-31-2012, 10:15 PM
I agree. And now that we are reasonably sure the screaming is coming from Martin, I wonder what people imagine was happening? Were TM and GZ wrestling for the gun? Was TM just standing there pleading for his life?

I realize no one knows for sure. I'm just wondering what people think.

I'm guessing that they were both screaming either at different points, or at the same time, during the confrontation. IMO, the audio "evidence" doesn't make this case any less confusing, but then again, I have never thought the audio alone would paint a clear picture of what transpired. I truly believe that we'll never know what really happened.

ynotdivein
03-31-2012, 10:15 PM
The news on weekends is no less reliable than it is on weekdays. Saturday editions tend to have lower readership than Sundays (though this may have changed somewhat with the advent of online news, the 24-hour news cycle, and the decline of printed papers).

The fact that this hit the OS today doesn't indicate that the voice analyses were inaccurate somehow... IMO it indicates that the results were probably released yesterday, and/or that perhaps the OS was attempting not to fan the flames in this case and so chose to drop the story on the "slowest" of the news days.

Just some thoughts I'm noodling around.

SuziQ
03-31-2012, 10:15 PM
They didn't say it wasn't george, they said it was 48% matched to George. This doesn't really mean anything..

(snip)
The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.

iluvmua
03-31-2012, 10:16 PM
Well, I don't know Florida law but if you ask me it's a hate crime under those premises, since GZ didn't actually have any evidence that TM was part of a small criminal subset of black youths burglarizing homes, he just knew that TM was black.

It was dark and raining and according to TM's GF she said that he pulled his hoodie over his head. How in the world was GZ just going to know that he was black.

911 call:

George: Hey we've had some break ins in my neighborhood and theres a real suspicious guy.

911 dispatcher: Ok, is this guy White, Black or Hispanic?

George: He looks Black

songline
03-31-2012, 10:16 PM
I agree. And now that we are reasonably sure the screaming is coming from Martin, I wonder what people imagine was happening? Were TM and GZ wrestling for the gun? Was TM just standing there pleading for his life?

I realize no one knows for sure. I'm just wondering what people think.

So IF IF IF GZ was attacked and started screaming help, they hit the ground
TM & GZ fight and TM saw the gun and freaks out screaming, cause he lost control of GZ.

RANCH
03-31-2012, 10:16 PM
IMO when the police dispatcher said don't follow him that should have ended that. Zimmerman should have stopped. I think from that point on Zimmerman took the law into his own hands.
What law did GZ break when he disregarded the dispatchers suggestion?

Do we know for a fact that GZ did disregard the dispatchers suggestion?

Cher352
03-31-2012, 10:16 PM
I think the prosecutor is doing the right thing not rushing to judgement. Sometimes it takes years for an arrest. I think they are probably looking to see if there were any surveillance cameras or additional witnesses. They also need lab work back the blood evidence, the victims medical findings. I think that within a month or so this will be put in front of a grand jury.

Just got around to reading my morning copy of the Orlando Sentinel. Editorial there on the fact that it has been 4 months since the FAMU hazing death and no arrest there either....My but the wheels of justice sure turn slowly.

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 10:16 PM
There were only two of them and one has been scientifically eliminated. What does a reasonable analysis tell you as to whose screams those are?
One has been eliminated by a test that hasn't been validated. The media can portray it how they want, but you still need a control in an experiment for a reason. This is why he "stressed" that he did not have Trayvon's voice to confirm.

legalmania
03-31-2012, 10:17 PM
Well, yes. But the dispatcher didn't say that.

The dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that". IMHO, meaning, "we can find him, thanks anyway." This is in no way the same thing as LE saying "get back".

No because a police officer was en route, so they were coming.

Donjeta
03-31-2012, 10:17 PM
I was referring to Owen, and that entire paragraph is:



It seems like that last part is a pretty big exception to me. He only has half of the puzzle. You cannot determine validity in a certain scenario without a control group. "Reasonable scientific certainty" means just that - he's taken what he has into account and can reasonably make a hypothesis, however, he cannot confirm it was Trayvon's voice.

I didn't interpret it like that.
I think he's just being scientifically precise and notes that although he can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not GZ (and a number of other random comparison people that he could test) he can't say that it's TM because he didn't test that. It's a pretty standard disclaimer imo.

If there was a partial fingerprint and he'd have tested it against GZ's prints he could say the same thing. That he is reasonably certain it's not a match to GZ but he can't conclude that it's Trayvon's because he didn't have TM's fingerprints to compare.

IMO it doesn't mean that he has to test TM's voice to know for sure that it's not GZ's.
If his method is any good he should have the research to know how accurate his tests would be with the kind of samples he's using.
(if not, we can ignore what he says but I assume a court recognized expert has to provide some background to become an expert)

Boytwnmom
03-31-2012, 10:18 PM
hate crime statute. I really don't know if FL has a state statute or not but I do know the feds are investigating and that would be under the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/civilrights/federal-statutes

I'm not very familiar with hate crimes but an essential part of all crimes is mens rea or intent. Here there needs to be racial animus not just a bias or prejudice against a group that causes you to be more likely to draw a conclusion against one of them. Now, that's my completely unresearched opinion based upon general knowledge of criminal law.

I think the hate, the racial animus, has to be the prime motivator. I'm not at all convinced that was the case here. I do believe GZ's conclusions about TM were based in some part on race but I don't think he was motivated in his actions by hatred of black people nor am I even sure he actually intended to commit a crime against him although there is some evidence that he had some point formed an intent to detain him which would be unlawful. I might suggest he was more driven by fear than hate. I also think he was an over-zealous, hyped up person who was a ticking time bomb once he had a gun but who was not consciously out gunning for anyone-if that makes sense!

Interesting issue-I know there have been some on line discussions about this topic but I haven't really had time to read the actual statute and any case law to see how it may be applicable or not applicable here. Of course, he could always be charged under the law and be acquitted but I don't think the feds want to bring unsustainable hate crime prosecutions, at least I hope they don't.


Sorry to snip your excellent post. I hope everyone reads it in its entirety on page 1 of this thread.

But you hint at an interesting question: suppose hypothetically that one believes African-American teens have been committing burglaries in the neighborhood and then getting away because police response times are slow. And further suppose that GZ was fed up and decided that THIS AA teen wasn't getting away, not tonight, enough was enough.

Is that a HATE crime? It has a racial element, certainly, but the animus is directed at a small, CRIMINAL subset of black youths, not necessarily at African-Americans in general. Racism being a complicated impulse, one might well have close AA friends and simultaneously feel a deep resentment at black criminals who were robbing one's neighbors.

Or to put it more briefly, assuming the above, GZ shot TM because GZ believed TM was yet another black youth burglarizing nearby homes, NOT merely because TM was black. Still not self-defense, but is it a hate crime under Florida law?

rbrnmw2
03-31-2012, 10:18 PM
Nite guys :)
nite Tulessa

LambChop
03-31-2012, 10:18 PM
Well, yes. But the dispatcher didn't say that.

The dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that". IMHO, meaning, "we can find him, thanks anyway." This is in no way the same thing as LE saying "get back".

They told him to wait for the patrol car on it's way....I never heard the dispatcher say....go get em George, head him off at the pass. It's like "what the meaning of is, is". GZ knew exactly what he was suppose to do. There was no "gray" area he was fully aware of what he was doing. jmo

SuziQ
03-31-2012, 10:19 PM
it's like with DNA, the higher the "match" the more likely it is the same person. From what I understand the 48% excludes it being GZ's voice. So that method focused on GZ. The other method did not exclude GZ it instead concluded it was Trayvon so essentially one test was a negative for GZ and the other was a positive for Trayvon.

The two experts here actually used different methods to do the voice match. The 48% one was by Tom Owen who used voice identification software, Easy Voice Biometrics" to

The other person, Ed Primeau, used to conclude:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331,0,250481.story

Sigh

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

(snip)
The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.

songline
03-31-2012, 10:20 PM
The news on weekends is no less reliable than it is on weekdays. Saturday editions tend to have lower readership than Sundays (though this may have changed somewhat with the advent of online news, the 24-hour news cycle, and the decline of printed papers).

The fact that this hit the OS today doesn't indicate that the voice analyses were inaccurate somehow... IMO it indicates that the results were probably released yesterday, and/or that perhaps the OS was attempting not to fan the flames in this case and so chose to drop the story on the "slowest" of the news days.

Just some thoughts I'm noodling around.
Possible, still a bit odd.

vlpate
03-31-2012, 10:20 PM
Well, in most places you do have to take a written test and be able to drive the car within the traffic laws.

I don't know of anywhere that tests any safety measures for owning a gun.

Just sayin'

Salem

Classes are required in most states to carry a concealed weapon.

However, if Ted Nugent can lawfully own an arsenal of firearms, it's probably safe to say mental evaluations are not always done.

Just sayin'

legalmania
03-31-2012, 10:20 PM
What law did GZ break when he disregarded the dispatchers suggestion?

Do we know for a fact that GZ did disregard the dispatchers suggestion?

Well when the witness called they were seen together fighting, then the witness heard the shot. So yes.

Nova
03-31-2012, 10:21 PM
I personally think both of them could have been screaming. Have these expert considered that possibility?

Yes, I'm sure they did. They were already having to filter out the voices of the caller and 911 dispatcher; the experts were aware there were more than one voice on the tape.

As for whether an expert can compare screaming to speaking in a normal tone, volume and pitch are only two factors in a voice comparison. There are others.

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 10:22 PM
I didn't interpret it like that.
I think he's just being scientifically precise and notes that although he can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not GZ (and a number of other random comparison people that he could test) he can't say that it's TM because he didn't test that. It's a pretty standard disclaimer imo.

If there was a partial fingerprint and he'd have tested it against GZ's prints he could say the same thing. That he is reasonably certain it's not a match to GZ but he can't conclude that it's Trayvon's because he didn't have TM's fingerprints to compare.

IMO it doesn't mean that he has to test TM's voice to know for sure that it's not GZ's.
If his method is any good he should have the research to know how accurate his tests would be with the kind of samples he's using.
(if not, we can ignore what he says but I assume a court recognized expert has to provide some background to become an expert)
The software has only been out for around three weeks. I'm not sure how anyone could gauge its reliability in that time, much less in case where they only have one side of the story and cannot test the other.

Donjeta
03-31-2012, 10:22 PM
One has been eliminated by a test that hasn't been validated. The media can portray it how they want, but you still need a control in an experiment for a reason. This is why he "stressed" that he did not have Trayvon's voice to confirm.

Trayvon wouldn't be a control sample imo, he'd be another subject.

Peliman
03-31-2012, 10:22 PM
This case has gone viral in here and I've got some pieces of what happened (I think) I'm curious if a medical examiners report has been released. Besides the gunshot wound I wonder if any other medical findings were made on Trayvon?

iluvmua
03-31-2012, 10:23 PM
IMO when the police dispatcher said don't follow him that should have ended that. Zimmerman should have stopped. I think from that point on Zimmerman took the law into his own hands.

he told him " We do not need you to do that".

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 10:23 PM
I agree. And now that we are reasonably sure the screaming is coming from Martin, I wonder what people imagine was happening? Were TM and GZ wrestling for the gun? Was TM just standing there pleading for his life?

I realize no one knows for sure. I'm just wondering what people think.

This is always what I thought happened.

Trayvon thinks he loses Zimmerman.

Zimmerman gets out of his car.

Trayvon is walking down the long stretch of sidewalk.

Zimmerman cuts through the buildings.

They come face to face.

Trayvon "Why are you following me?"

Zimmerman "What are you doing here?"

I think it was here that Trayvon knew Zimmerman had a gun. Whether he actually took it out of the holster or he was trying to intimidate Trayvon and lifted his jacket to show him.

This is also where the girlfriend says she heard pushing and the phone went dead.

I believe whatever altercation started was based on the fact that Trayvon knew Zimmerman had that gun.

Nova
03-31-2012, 10:23 PM
If this guy testifies using things like 48% that it is Zimmerman, a jury could say it's almost 50/50 either way and disregard it entirely. JMO.

If an expert testifies to that figure with no other explanation, perhaps, but that will take incompetence on the part of both the expert and the prosecutor.

I think juries tend to ignore expert testimony largely when they get diametrically opposed opinions and don't have the scientific knowledge to sort them out. So unless the defense can come up with an expert who says the screams ARE Zimmerman's, I think the jury will assume they are Martin's.

daisy7
03-31-2012, 10:24 PM
i WOULD LOVE TO SEE THOSE TAPES IF ANYONE HAS THEM
FROM THE 7/11

I'm curious why seeing those tapes would be helpful?

Ironhorse
03-31-2012, 10:25 PM
I think the major thing to consider is the concept that "laying blame is of no material importance". So, let's use instead the phrase "accepting responsibility", since I, too, agree blame serves no one. Who is responsible and therefore accountable?
IF the man had climbed over a private fence and encountered an attacking dog, he is liable for any injury he does the dog, and the property for that matter, because he made a conscious choice to commit an illegal action. If the dog encountered the man on the man's property, the dog owner is liable for injury to the man or his property because he committed an illegal action.

We know who shot Martin.
What we don't know was it justifiable.

Two trains of thought here:
1# The newly assigned DA found the same lack of evidence that her predecessor had and that's why we've not seen an arrest?

2# Or the newly assigned DA is buying her time so that she shift the determination onto the Grand Jury?

As for the dog & my neighbor they both was in the middle of the street the one inciting the other and neither willing to back down. The dog had as much right to be where he was as the man. But it became a standoff and had the dog bitten my neighbor I would have told him he got what he was asking for. Of course had the dog attacked him and he killed it I would have said the dog got what it had coming... See the point I'm making is each had a right to be where they was, each had a right to defend themselves. Yet, neither had the right to provoke the other as they was doing but in doing so this didn't evaporate the right of the attacked to not defend themselves... The dog's owner is inconsequential right at the moment you're having to deal with whether your about to get bitten... It's a bit like the government surveyor showing the bull in the pasture his papers, the bull is still going to chase him regardless of what authority he may think he has.

I feel that leading people to believe that situations like this just happen as a matter of coincidence and that the factors LEADING UP TO the event causing injury is of no importance, even in that moment at hand, is advocating a sense of irresponsibility. It is a sure thing that the factors leading up to and the conscious choices made by people involved have EVERYTHING to do with who MUST accept responsibility after the fact. It's just the way life is. And if we want to use the word "blame" synonymously, it really only makes a difference in that "blame" is more inflammatory from a neurolinguistic perspective than "holding responsibility for" or "holding accountable for" the outcome.

Yes, I agree everyone is accountable for his/her actions... All I was saying is time after time we hear the what "if's" and a number of people depend upon those to justify their outlandish claims. Many try to convert those what if's into facts throwing all critical thinking aside when it doesn't support their assumptions... If this or If that... Life behaves funny and sometimes turning left when we should have turned right causes us to get caught in a traffic jam, that could have otherwise avoided.

I can't explain it but for some unknown reason Martin/Zimmerman was set on some sort of collision course. And from what I gather each added to it till it culminated in the tragedy we are witnessing.

If the outcome caused great harm, who is responsible and accountable, and to what extent? Bring on the investigation. :)

Now we've got two investigations and neither have resulted in an arrest. Some will see this and say LE hasn't gotten it right. To some it will never be right until they see someone hanged for it regardless if that person was guilty or not...

RANCH
03-31-2012, 10:25 PM
Well when the witness called they were seen together fighting, then the witness heard the shot. So yes.

That doesn't answer either of my questions. By disregarding the dispatchers suggestion, what law did GZ break. I say none but I'm open to anything that says I'm wrong.

LambChop
03-31-2012, 10:25 PM
What law did GZ break when he disregarded the dispatchers suggestion?

Do we know for a fact that GZ did disregard the dispatchers suggestion?

He was asked to meet the patrol car. He knew not to follow, he was asked politely not to follow to stay with the car meet LE. Obviously some do not understand the importance of following instructions from LE and not pursue a subject. According to LE comments to the press following personel on their personal time is considered stalking and they will be arrested. So I guess what GZ did was against the law. jmo

justthinkin
03-31-2012, 10:26 PM
Sorry Papa,
I am not saying these reports are wrong That is NOT what I am saying at all:
I am so not trusting experts on weekends,
I don’t know why rush out on the weekend to do a report?
Why would the DA come out last Sunday to the scene of the shooting?
Those thing never sit right with me at all.
So If you don’t mind I will wait for some confirmation on these reports.

Didn’t the guy at the funeral Parlor say that TM had no marks on him at all.
I am totally confused with screams like that
whoever is screaming should have some marks of a struggle.

BBM. Very good point. Whoever is screaming is apt to be the one getting the worst beating.

legalmania
03-31-2012, 10:26 PM
Just got around to reading my morning copy of the Orlando Sentinel. Editorial there on the fact that it has been 4 months since the FAMU hazing death and no arrest there either....My but the wheels of justice sure turn slowly.

Use to do law for a living and it almost killed me.

SuziQ
03-31-2012, 10:27 PM
He is comparing the tape of him talking to the tape of someone screaming. So why is he expecting 90 % match?

You would have to ask him. I'm just posting what a few overlooked.

vlpate
03-31-2012, 10:27 PM
(snip)
The software compared that audio to Zimmerman's voice. It returned a 48 percent match. Owen said to reach a positive match with audio of this quality, he'd expect higher than 90 percent.

It's experts like these that lose cases and create reasonable doubt in cases like Casey Anthony. They are a dime a dozen. No doubt they were paid for their trouble.

JMO

Wise Old Owl
03-31-2012, 10:27 PM
Here's a thought I had earlier concering the "beating GZ's head against the sidewalk" and all that has entailed.

Some of you might remember Josie Lou Ratley. That was a case down here - still in the courts. About a girl texting to a boy. The boy got enraged over a comment she made. He put on his steel toed boots and jumped on his bicycle. Pedaled over 2 miles to get to the school and once there, found her and darn near beat her to death.

Wayne Treacy was the kid and he beat Josie's head into the concrete. Josie lived and she is now so brain damaged that she is having to start learning all over - colors, numbers, ABC's.

Point here - Treacy beat her head against the concrete. IF GZ was really beat against the concrete I honestly don't think he would have gotten up and just walked into the police station less than an hour later.

Now while Treacy also kicked Josie in the head with those boots - the part about beating her head into the concrete is what just keeps coming back to me.

IMHO there is just no way that Trayvon beat GZ's head against the concrete. I just can't buy it.



JMHO

Etilema
03-31-2012, 10:27 PM
BBM. Very good point. Whoever is screaming is apt to be the one getting the worst beating.

Perhaps the one screaming is the one with a gun pointed at him?

Nova
03-31-2012, 10:27 PM
They didn't say it wasn't george, they said it was 48% matched to George. This doesn't really mean anything..

Actually, every news account to date has said exactly that: a 48% match means it is NOT GZ.

songline
03-31-2012, 10:28 PM
I think I hear help in the beginning and no in the end.
I hope not-- I hope you dont hear that.
NO at the end does not sound good.

LambChop
03-31-2012, 10:28 PM
If an expert testifies to that figure with no other explanation, perhaps, but that will take incompetence on the part of both the expert and the prosecutor.

I think juries tend to ignore expert testimony largely when they get diametrically opposed opinions and don't have the scientific knowledge to sort them out. So unless the defense can come up with an expert who says the screams ARE Zimmerman's, I think the jury will assume they are Martin's.

And the last thing GZ would want is for those tapes to be played to a jury. jmo

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 10:29 PM
Trayvon wouldn't be a control sample imo, he'd be another subject.

I mean "control" in the manner that it would validate the results of the test. There aren't traditional variable roles in this type of test, however you can still check for reliability and validity. You can have a test that is reliable every time you run the test, but that does not make it valid. These are basic concepts in science.

The only way, in a test such as this, to actually validate the results would be to get a positive result in the manner expected.

songline
03-31-2012, 10:30 PM
It's not impossible but the article said it was a group of black men. That bothers me. Was there proof they were all black?
I dont know if there was proof for all 8 roberies,
PROOF would mean they know how to go find them
I think....

RANCH
03-31-2012, 10:30 PM
If an expert testifies to that figure with no other explanation, perhaps, but that will take incompetence on the part of both the expert and the prosecutor.

I think juries tend to ignore expert testimony largely when they get diametrically opposed opinions and don't have the scientific knowledge to sort them out. So unless the defense can come up with an expert who says the screams ARE Zimmerman's, I think the jury will assume they are Martin's.
Your right. It depends on the defense and the jury. But using things like a 48% match certainly gives ammunition to the defense. And an out to a jury who is predisposed to a certain side.

iluvmua
03-31-2012, 10:30 PM
I'm curious why seeing those tapes would be helpful?

To see If he actually went to the store. Just because the media reports that he did does not mean that he actually went to the store.

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 10:30 PM
I'm curious why seeing those tapes would be helpful?

I personally want to know if Zimmerman had made a trip to that store earlier to buy alcohol? Based on statements by some people he worked with, he was a cool guy until he started drinking? Since they didn't do any tests on him to determine whether or not he had been drinking, I think it would be interesting to see if he made an earlier trip to the store?

Also, he says he was going to the store when he spotted Trayvon (some say Target?), but I would like to make sure he didn't go to the 7-11 and that is when he seen Trayvon walking back to the complex and waited for him?

Nova
03-31-2012, 10:31 PM
If both of them are screaming then I would think Zimmerman should come in at 50 %.

No, just no. Look, I don't completely understand the science of voice comparison either, but your and my "common sense" use of numbers isn't going to help us here.

Your "50% reasoning" would only make sense if the expert were analyzing total sound (and half of it came from GZ). That's not how it works. The expert isolates voices first and then evaluates each one individually.

SuziQ
03-31-2012, 10:31 PM
Because there's always the question of the reliability of the test. What if the test itself is flawed?

They could very well try to confirm it was Martin's voice, and due to a downfall of the software or because there were two screams that are conflated, or because the quality of the recorded screams are dubious, the results may turn out exactly the same or worse.

BBM. Here is a link for Easy Voice Biometrics. Included are video tutorials. Maybe this will help answer questions.

http://www.easyvoicebiometrics.com/index.php?app=cms&ns=display&ref=splash

Donjeta
03-31-2012, 10:31 PM
The software has only been out for around three weeks. I'm not sure how anyone could gauge its reliability in that time, much less in case where they only have one side of the story and cannot test the other.

Link please?

The article says he used the same technology to testify in January and in that testimony he said he did the tests last year.

Did an updated software version of existing methodology just come out?

I would hope that in the development of voice recognition software that is to be used in court contexts the developers would do reliability research.

If not, it is really useless and letting people testify using the method would be a travesty of justice.

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/local/article/Expert-Davalloo-made-911-call-2753115.php

Peliman
03-31-2012, 10:31 PM
BBM. Very good point. Whoever is screaming is apt to be the one getting the worst beating.

That's why I'm curious about a medical examiners findings on Trayvon. I'm curious about other findings besides a gunshot wound.

OneLove
03-31-2012, 10:32 PM
He is comparing the tape of him talking to the tape of someone screaming. So why is he expecting 90 % match?

Because he is a well trained, experienced, very competent professional in this field?? Oh, AND highly regarded.

<modsnip>

vlpate
03-31-2012, 10:32 PM
He was asked to meet the patrol car. He knew not to follow, he was asked politely not to follow to stay with the car meet LE. Obviously some do not understand the importance of following instructions from LE and not pursue a subject. According to LE comments to the press following personel on their personal time is considered stalking and they will be arrested. So I guess what GZ did was against the law. jmo

BEM: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

"Dispatcher: Alright George, we do have them on the way, did you want to meet with the officers when they get out there?"

daisy7
03-31-2012, 10:32 PM
The news on weekends is no less reliable than it is on weekdays. Saturday editions tend to have lower readership than Sundays (though this may have changed somewhat with the advent of online news, the 24-hour news cycle, and the decline of printed papers).

The fact that this hit the OS today doesn't indicate that the voice analyses were inaccurate somehow... IMO it indicates that the results were probably released yesterday, and/or that perhaps the OS was attempting not to fan the flames in this case and so chose to drop the story on the "slowest" of the news days.

Just some thoughts I'm noodling around.

IMO, they put it out tonight just in time for Sunday's paper.

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 10:32 PM
Link please?

The article says he used the same technology to testify in January and in that testimony he said he did the tests last year.

Did an updated software version of existing methodology just come out?

I would hope that in the development of voice recognition software that is to be used in court contexts the developers would do reliability research.

If not, it is really useless and letting people testify using the method would be a travesty of justice.

http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/local/article/Expert-Davalloo-made-911-call-2753115.php
http://www.easyvoicebiometrics.com/index.php?app=cms&ns=xmodnewsrss_detail&ref=easyvoicebiometrics

Press release from the company themselves, released on March 8, 2012.

justthinkin
03-31-2012, 10:33 PM
Perhaps the one screaming is the one with a gun pointed at him?

Very well might be that too.

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 10:33 PM
BBM. Here is a link for Easy Voice Biometrics. Included are video tutorials. Maybe this will help answer questions.

http://www.easyvoicebiometrics.com/index.php?app=cms&ns=display&ref=splash

I've looked at all of the videos. There's very little documentation available about it, and the videos don't help at all.

songline
03-31-2012, 10:33 PM
I'm curious why seeing those tapes would be helpful?
Becaus he was alive then.

Nova
03-31-2012, 10:35 PM
I've already explained this.

What happens if Martin's voice scored just as poorly? There's a reason they didn't unequivocally state that it wasn't Zimmerman, and stressed they had not tested Martin's voice.

Per every news source I've read, they DID state it wasn't Zimmerman.

They can't state it was Martin because they don't have a sample of Martin with which to do a comparison. And since they weren't there, they can't swear there were only two people in the yard that night, even though you and I know there were only two.

iluvmua
03-31-2012, 10:35 PM
He was asked to meet the patrol car. He knew not to follow, he was asked politely not to follow to stay with the car meet LE. Obviously some do not understand the importance of following instructions from LE and not pursue a subject. According to LE comments to the press following personel on their personal time is considered stalking and they will be arrested. So I guess what GZ did was against the law. jmo

The 911 dispatcher asked him "do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there".

Not we want you to meet with the officer.

Boytwnmom
03-31-2012, 10:35 PM
to be held either criminally or civilly responsible for the consequences of your actions, intended or not. Most human behavior is not subject to law. However, when you, for example, undertake to contact law enforcement authorities because of your concern about a person you've concluded is a criminal and then you fail to follow their instructions it can very easily be found that you were not acting reasonably, that you were grossly or simply negligent etc. The whole story, when known, will be knit together and evaluated in terms of what a reasonable person would do in the same or similar circumstance.

It may very well be that his decision to continue to pursue TM after being told such an act was not needed by LE is determined to be a proximate cause of what occurred or that combined with his decision to take and wield a gun against a person who has not committed any crime made that person reasonably fear for his life so that whatever he did to his assailant was justified and thus the assailants killing of TM was unlawful.

Basically, at this point we don't know the whole story but the fact that not doing what 911 tells you is not a crime may not be terribly relevant to the legal analysis and may not act to "save" GZ from any legal consequences that stem from his actions.



What law did GZ break when he disregarded the dispatchers suggestion?

Do we know for a fact that GZ did disregard the dispatchers suggestion?

RANCH
03-31-2012, 10:36 PM
He was asked to meet the patrol car. He knew not to follow, he was asked politely not to follow to stay with the car meet LE. Obviously some do not understand the importance of following instructions from LE and not pursue a subject. According to LE comments to the press following personel on their personal time is considered stalking and they will be arrested. So I guess what GZ did was against the law. jmo
I'm not saying that GZ did the right thing at all. I'm not even sure if he did in fact stop following TM and head back to his truck after getting the suggestion.

So you feel that GZ broke a stalking law. I'll have to see if that would work. Thanks.

SuziQ
03-31-2012, 10:36 PM
To see If he actually went to the store. Just because the media reports that he did does not mean that he actually went to the store.

Then where did he get the skittles and the ice tea?

Ironhorse
03-31-2012, 10:37 PM
Well, in most places you do have to take a written test and be able to drive the car within the traffic laws.

I don't know of anywhere that tests any safety measures for owning a gun.

Just sayin'

Salem

No one has to take a test to own a car either...If you've got the money you can buy a car...

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 10:38 PM
The 911 dispatcher asked him "do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there".

Not we want you to meet with the officer.

That tells me that the dispatcher was telling him his (Zimmerman's) job was done (calling in the suspicious kid) and that if he wanted to meet up with them he could... or he could just go home.

Donjeta
03-31-2012, 10:38 PM
I mean "control" in the manner that it would validate the results of the test. There aren't traditional variable roles in this type of test, however you can still check for reliability and validity. You can have a test that is reliable every time you run the test, but that does not make it valid. These are basic concepts in science.

The only way, in a test such as this, to actually validate the results would be to get a positive result in the manner expected.

Getting TM's voice to match would NOT validate the test. If it could produce a false negative it could produce a false positive. One of the samples would have to be a known match in order to validate the test but both of them are unknowns (in that we don't know with absolute certainty which one of them was screaming or if either one was).

To be proper science I would expect the test to have been validated in independent research with known matches and controls, in similar circumstances, (comparing screaming voice to talking voice, talking in a phone call vs. heard from a distance on a phone call etc.) and the test would have to be able to differentiate between the matches and the controls.

Ideally they should check the validity by getting a number of control samples of the same people talking and screaming, recorded in the same place, in the same conditions as the test samples they're using.

Not sure if GZ would cooperate and agree to go back and scream there. Maybe not.

By known matches I mean that someone knows and can check that the tester got the right results, not that the tester knows the desired result before testing.

rbrnmw2
03-31-2012, 10:38 PM
I noticed it was 2 experts using 2 different techniques that ruled out Zimmerman being the source of the screams for help It's horrifying I knew in my heart it was Trayvon because it stopped immediately after the shot but the realization has me bawling this is just so heart wrenching.

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 10:41 PM
One thing that I have noticed... This expert said that he'd expect for it to score over 90% to be considered a match. In one of the video demonstrations for the product, they use two different clips of Nixon speaking, and it only garners an 86% match... So reasonably, according to him, he couldn't say it was a positive match.

I find that interesting.

Donjeta
03-31-2012, 10:42 PM
http://www.easyvoicebiometrics.com/index.php?app=cms&ns=xmodnewsrss_detail&ref=easyvoicebiometrics

Press release from the company themselves, released on March 8, 2012.

The press release says they started selling it on March 1.

Validation research can and should be done prior to selling a product.

songline
03-31-2012, 10:43 PM
We know who shot Martin.
What we don't know was it justifiable.

Two trains of thought here:
1# The newly assigned DA found the same lack of evidence that her predecessor had and that's why we've not seen an arrest?

2# Or the newly assigned DA is buying her time so that she shift the determination onto the Grand Jury?

As for the dog & my neighbor they both was in the middle of the street the one inciting the other and neither willing to back down. The dog had as much right to be where he was as the man. But it became a standoff and had the dog bitten my neighbor I would have told him he got what he was asking for. Of course had the dog attacked him and he killed it I would have said the dog got what it had coming... See the point I'm making is each had a right to be where they was, each had a right to defend themselves. Yet, neither had the right to provoke the other as they was doing but in doing so this didn't evaporate the right of the attacked to not defend themselves... The dog's owner is inconsequential right at the moment you're having to deal with whether your about to get bitten... It's a bit like the government surveyor showing the bull in the pasture his papers, the bull is still going to chase him regardless of what authority he may think he has.



Yes, I agree everyone is accountable for his/her actions... All I was saying is time after time we hear the what "if's" and a number of people depend upon those to justify their outlandish claims. Many try to convert those what if's into facts throwing all critical thinking aside when it doesn't support their assumptions... If this or If that... Life behaves funny and sometimes turning left when we should have turned right causes us to get caught in a traffic jam, that could have otherwise avoided.

I can't explain it but for some unknown reason Martin/Zimmerman was set on some sort of collision course. And from what I gather each added to it till it culminated in the tragedy we are witnessing.



Now we've got two investigations and neither have resulted in an arrest. Some will see this and say LE hasn't gotten it right. To some it will never be right until they see someone hanged for it regardless if that person was guilty or not...
THANK YOU SO MUCH.
So beautifully said. So right too.

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 10:44 PM
Getting TM's voice to match would NOT validate the test. If it could produce a false negative it could produce a false positive. One of the samples would have to be a known match in order to validate the test but both of them are unknowns (in that we don't know with absolute certainty which one of them was screaming or if either one was).

To be proper science I would expect the test to have been validated in independent research with known matches and controls, in similar circumstances, (comparing screaming voice to talking voice, talking in a phone call vs. heard from a distance on a phone call etc.) and the test would have to be able to differentiate between the matches and the controls.

By known matches I mean that someone knows and can check that the tester got the right results, not that the tester knows the desired result before testing.
And there's very little documentation about this software and how it was tested. However, if the test came back 95% Martin and 48% Zimmerman, I would not contest those results. I just do not like the assumption that because they "disqualified" Zimmerman that it automatically means it was Martin. It's still jumping to conclusions without all of the facts.

Nova
03-31-2012, 10:44 PM
Well, I don't know Florida law but if you ask me it's a hate crime under those premises, since GZ didn't actually have any evidence that TM was part of a small criminal subset of black youths burglarizing homes, he just knew that TM was black.

Good point about GZ's lack of evidence. So the hate crime lies in assuming that any member of the larger group must also be a member of the subset.

Concerned Papa
03-31-2012, 10:45 PM
One has been eliminated by a test that hasn't been validated. The media can portray it how they want, but you still need a control in an experiment for a reason. This is why he "stressed" that he did not have Trayvon's voice to confirm.

This is a ridiculous back and forth and I'm through with it.

Arrest Zimmerman, seat a jury, and present them 3 pieces of evidence to consider:

-Have 12 impartial jurors listen to these screams

-Have 12 impartial jurors listen to the chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence tell them whose screams those are NOT.

-Have 12 impartial jurors stand on their heads, squint one eye, and capture just exactly the right frame to see if THEY can find any evidence of his imaginary beating in the video as he's led into the jail.

Then let em go vote.

Cher352
03-31-2012, 10:45 PM
I'm guessing that they were both screaming either at different points, or at the same time, during the confrontation. IMO, the audio "evidence" doesn't make this case any less confusing, but then again, I have never thought the audio alone would paint a clear picture of what transpired. I truly believe that we'll never know what really happened.

I would think both too since I have always heard that getting punched in the nose is very painful.

Plus didn't that one male witness say he yelled stop to them twice and another lady holler out the window asking what they were doing? As for other witnesses that haven't talked to the media for all we they could have been screaming hysterically too, I know I would have if I saw something like that going on.

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 10:46 PM
Good point about GZ's lack of evidence. So the hate crime lies in assuming that any member of the larger group must also be a member of the subset.

I want to know what kind of bars he hung out in? I have my own reason for wanting to know this, but I think it could give us more insight?

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 10:46 PM
The press release says they started selling it on March 1.

Validation research can and should be done prior to selling a product.
I'm aware, but that doesn't mean anything with respect to real-world usage. It's been out in the wild for less than a month.

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 10:47 PM
This is a ridiculous back and forth and I'm through with it.

Arrest Zimmerman, seat a jury, and present them 3 pieces of evidence to consider:

-Have 12 impartial jurors listen to these screams

-Have 12 impartial jurors listen to the chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence tell them whose screams those are NOT.

-Have 12 impartial jurors stand on their heads, squint one eye, and capture just exactly the right frame to see if THEY can find any evidence of his imaginary beating in the video as he's led into the jail.

Then let em go vote.
It's ridiculous to request scientific validity in a test?

Alright, then.

LambChop
03-31-2012, 10:47 PM
The 911 dispatcher asked him "do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there".

Not we want you to meet with the officer.

That was not an invitation to go chase down TM. Do you want to meet with the officer..... or are you leaving, are you going home. Never go chase this dude down. No one told GZ to chase down anyone. He was told he did not have to follow, a patrol car was on the way. GZ knew exactly what this dispatcher meant. LE does not want a private citizen to get involved while they are investigating a complaint. We all know that if we have ever called for help.

I can see this will change the way dispatchers handle calls in the future and lawsuits be damned. Obviously some people will have to be spoon feed and spelled out to them in very defining terms. Do not follow this person, that's an order. It's a hard job as it is without private citizens interferring and placing someone else's life in danger, including responding officers. jmo

Adrienne37
03-31-2012, 10:47 PM
We know who shot Martin.
What we don't know was it justifiable.

Two trains of thought here:
1# The newly assigned DA found the same lack of evidence that her predecessor had and that's why we've not seen an arrest?

2# Or the newly assigned DA is buying her time so that she shift the determination onto the Grand Jury?

As for the dog & my neighbor they both was in the middle of the street the one inciting the other and neither willing to back down. The dog had as much right to be where he was as the man. But it became a standoff and had the dog bitten my neighbor I would have told him he got what he was asking for. Of course had the dog attacked him and he killed it I would have said the dog got what it had coming... See the point I'm making is each had a right to be where they was, each had a right to defend themselves. Yet, neither had the right to provoke the other as they was doing but in doing so this didn't evaporate the right of the attacked to not defend themselves... The dog's owner is inconsequential right at the moment you're having to deal with whether your about to get bitten... It's a bit like the government surveyor showing the bull in the pasture his papers, the bull is still going to chase him regardless of what authority he may think he has.



Yes, I agree everyone is accountable for his/her actions... All I was saying is time after time we hear the what "if's" and a number of people depend upon those to justify their outlandish claims. Many try to convert those what if's into facts throwing all critical thinking aside when it doesn't support their assumptions... If this or If that... Life behaves funny and sometimes turning left when we should have turned right causes us to get caught in a traffic jam, that could have otherwise avoided.

I can't explain it but for some unknown reason Martin/Zimmerman was set on some sort of collision course. And from what I gather each added to it till it culminated in the tragedy we are witnessing.



Now we've got two investigations and neither have resulted in an arrest. Some will see this and say LE hasn't gotten it right. To some it will never be right until they see someone hanged for it regardless if that person was guilty or not...

Angela Corey, the new state's attorney involved in the case has stated that it is likely she won't wait for the grand jury to act.

"Our process in every case is that we utilize a grand jury for indictment in investigations if we need them," Corey responded. "We may or may not need them, and we'll know that in a couple of weeks."

legalmania
03-31-2012, 10:49 PM
I dont know if there was proof for all 8 roberies,
PROOF would mean they know how to go find them
I think....

I would think they saw them but not necessarily able to identify them.

rotterdam
03-31-2012, 10:50 PM
I'm just really not sure how they can gauge/compare Zimmerman talking in a normal tone to him screaming. They appear to have valid credentials, so I'm don't think they'd put themselves out there like that if they weren't sure, but I just can't wrap my head around how screams can be compared to just talking. I sound nothing like how I talk when I scream. I dunno.

They really need both voice patterns IMO. 48% probability is too close for comfort and not too far from > 50%.

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 10:52 PM
They really need both voice patterns IMO. 48% probability is too close for comfort and not too far from > 50%.
Right now, what they're saying is that they're only 48% certain it's Zimmerman's voice. When there are two people involved, what does that mean? The defense or prosecution can twist that one fact either way they want.

Nova
03-31-2012, 10:52 PM
I'm guessing that they were both screaming either at different points, or at the same time, during the confrontation. IMO, the audio "evidence" doesn't make this case any less confusing, but then again, I have never thought the audio alone would paint a clear picture of what transpired. I truly believe that we'll never know what really happened.

I think the audio evidence is clear and certain to everyone except those who don't like what it shows.

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 10:52 PM
The Grand Jury will be meeting in 10 days, right? I really do think we will get an arrest for something? Something related to Trayvon's death. I'm not looking for 1st degree murder or anything like that. Manslaughter seems fair to me? I think he should be held responsible and should have to answer in a Court of Law for what he did? If he is found Not Guilty after all the evidence is shown in a Court of Law... then I will have to accept it. I've had to accept worse!

Ironhorse
03-31-2012, 10:53 PM
I would think this voice analysis software has about as much credence in a court of law, as that of a polygraph. Which of course means Zero evidence...

ynotdivein
03-31-2012, 10:53 PM
Adrienne, can you give us a link to the quote above? The GJ is supposed to be seated April 10 which is less than a couple of weeks now, so I'm curious when she stated this.

(BTW the EVB tapes are interesting, not terribly informative about the processes they use--intellectual property concerns no doubt--but the funky intro and extro music for each clip is so distracting that maybe I missed something!)

rbrnmw2
03-31-2012, 10:53 PM
This is a ridiculous back and forth and I'm through with it.

Arrest Zimmerman, seat a jury, and present them 3 pieces of evidence to consider:

-Have 12 impartial jurors listen to these screams

-Have 12 impartial jurors listen to the chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence tell them whose screams those are NOT.

-Have 12 impartial jurors stand on their heads, squint one eye, and capture just exactly the right frame to see if THEY can find any evidence of his imaginary beating in the video as he's led into the jail.

Then let em go vote.

ITA (but in case of a change of venue please don't consider Pinellas County)

vlpate
03-31-2012, 10:54 PM
http://www.easyvoicebiometrics.com/index.php?app=cms&ns=xmodnewsrss_detail&ref=easyvoicebiometrics

Press release from the company themselves, released on March 8, 2012.

Also associated by phone # with:
http://www.tracertek.com/ecom-catshow/treasuredrecordings.html
and
http://tracermarketing.com/contact.htm

RANCH
03-31-2012, 10:54 PM
Angela Corey, the new state's attorney involved in the case has stated that it is likely she won't wait for the grand jury to act.

"Our process in every case is that we utilize a grand jury for indictment in investigations if we need them," Corey responded. "We may or may not need them, and we'll know that in a couple of weeks."

How long ago did she make this statement? Has it been over a week. I'm just wondering when we may hear more about this.

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 10:54 PM
I think the audio evidence is clear and certain to everyone except those who don't like what it shows.
No, it only provides more substantiation to those affected by confirmation bias.

Cher352
03-31-2012, 10:55 PM
And the last thing GZ would want is for those tapes to be played to a jury. jmo

Just curious if/when this goes to trial, wonder which would be better trial by jury or trial by judge? Seems juries get it wrong sometimes...if you know what I mean.

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 10:55 PM
Also associated by phone # with:
http://www.tracertek.com/ecom-catshow/treasuredrecordings.html
and
http://tracermarketing.com/contact.htm
Jack of all trades, much?

Beyond Belief
03-31-2012, 10:55 PM
In our paper the other day awoman interviewed at a rally here stated "its not a black and white thing, its a right and wrong thing".
Now tonight I saw after todays rally far far away from here a woman interviewed used EXACTLY those same words.
I just thought it was weird.

shadowraiths
03-31-2012, 10:56 PM
Sorry to snip your excellent post. I hope everyone reads it in its entirety on page 1 of this thread.

But you hint at an interesting question: suppose hypothetically that one believes African-American teens have been committing burglaries in the neighborhood and then getting away because police response times are slow. And further suppose that GZ was fed up and decided that THIS AA teen wasn't getting away, not tonight, enough was enough.

Is that a HATE crime? It has a racial element, certainly, but the animus is directed at a small, CRIMINAL subset of black youths, not necessarily at African-Americans in general. Racism being a complicated impulse, one might well have close AA friends and simultaneously feel a deep resentment at black criminals who were robbing one's neighbors.

Or to put it more briefly, assuming the above, GZ shot TM because GZ believed TM was yet another black youth burglarizing nearby homes, NOT merely because TM was black. Still not self-defense, but is it a hate crime under Florida law?
Well, IANAL, nor am I familiar with Florida statutes. However, while this hypothetical, to my mind, seems to be first and foremost, an act of vigilantism, imho, I do think you could be looking at a hate crime due to the racial focus. Primarily bc he had no way of knowing Trayvon's background without taking him in for questioning and running a background check on him. Add to that, in this hypothetical, he generalizes the criminal element subset to all black youth, he has now targeted this young man based purely upon his perceived age and race. At which point, one could, imho, very well have foundation for a hate crime.

That said, the primary reason I do not believe this was a hate crime, per se, is based upon the fact that his chronic calls ( link (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/911CallHistory.pdf) ) seem to be all over the place. That is, he's calling about kids, old people, men, women, caucasians, people of color, etcetera. While, imho, his 911 call ( link (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/911/call1.wav) ) certainly exposes the racism aspect, I am of the opinion his issues, whatever they are, go well beyond racism. Otherwise put, had Trayvon been, say, an Asian youth, GZ would have, imho, used an Asian racial slur.

LambChop
03-31-2012, 10:57 PM
It's ridiculous to request scientific validity in a test?

Alright, then.

It's not a matter of chemicals vs. chemicals where you need a control group. It's a pattern, like your fingerprint or your DNA that specific point to measurements in your voice that when compared to another voice can be matched up and identified. That's not scientific version but just how I see it. It's voice A, B and C (C on the tape). Voice A patterns compared to Voice C patterns cannot be matched up to a degree of certainty so that would eliminate Voice A. jmo

iluvmua
03-31-2012, 10:57 PM
The Grand Jury will be meeting in 10 days, right? I really do think we will get an arrest for something? Something related to Trayvon's death. I'm not looking for 1st degree murder or anything like that. Manslaughter seems fair to me? I think he should be held responsible and should have to answer in a Court of Law for what he did? If he is found Not Guilty after all the evidence is shown in a Court of Law... then I will have to accept it. I've had to accept worse!

If this goes to trial and he is found not guilty, the riots would start right back up again.

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 10:57 PM
Just curious if/when this goes to trial, wonder which would be better trial by jury or trial by judge? Seems juries get it wrong sometimes...if you know what I mean.

As long as they don't go to Pinellas County for the jury, I'll roll with it? Anywhere but Pinellas County. Or Lee County because that is where I am from and we don't need crazy down here.

LolaMoon08
03-31-2012, 10:58 PM
If this goes to trial and he is found not guilty, the riots would start right back up again.

Can you give me the winning powerball numbers for tonight?

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 10:58 PM
It's not a matter of chemicals vs. chemicals where you need a control group. It's a pattern, like your fingerprint or your DNA that specific point to measurements in your voice that when compared to another voice can be matched up and identified. That's not scientific version but just how I see it. It's voice A, B and C (C on the tape). Voice A patterns compared to Voice C patterns cannot be matched up to a degree of certainty so that would eliminate Voice A. jmo
Except there's a larger degree of subjectivity than with fingerprints. Fingerprints don't necessarily change to the extent that voices can. If the software cannot reliably match a voice to that specific recording, then that needs to be determined.

Adrienne37
03-31-2012, 10:58 PM
Next thing you know, there will be fake audio floating around to support the theory that there was no way it could be Trayvon screaming just like there were photoshops done on the screenshots of Zimmerman from the surveillance video at the police station. Good grief. At what point is it going to be enough to show that this man murdered Trayvon Martin?


~jmo~

Nova
03-31-2012, 10:59 PM
BBM. Very good point. Whoever is screaming is apt to be the one getting the worst beating.

Not if the other guy has a gun. Come on.

mercuriod
03-31-2012, 10:59 PM
I have been sitting here for a couple of hours trying to think of a way to word this. Don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or get banned from WS.

I have been a non-active member of WS for a couple years, would read sometimes and almost never posted. When I first starting following this case, while I felt that George Zimmerman was wrong in what he did, I still felt there was a possibility that he did act under the SYG law and was leaning strongly on the side of giving him the benefit of doubt. I wanted everything investigated and let the "chips" fall where they may. My feeling was if the voice on the 911 calls yelling for help was that of George, then he was within his SYG rights and that should be that. Now that 2 experts have stated that it is NOT George's voice yelling for help, leaving the only other possibility being Trayvon is the one yelling for help, I find it absolutely amazing that posters are still trying to find excuses for what George did or someway to discount the experts testing.

m00c0w
03-31-2012, 10:59 PM
Next thing you know, there will be fake audio floating around to support the theory that there was no way it could be Trayvon screaming just like there were photoshops done on the screenshots of Zimmerman from the surveillance video at the police station. Good grief. At what point is it going to be enough to show that this man murdered Trayvon Martin?


~jmo~
When both sides are presented objectively in a court of law.