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imamaze
04-01-2012, 04:53 PM
Please continue here.
Remember the rules: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=159
Remember the "ignore" feature on your profile page.
Please stick with the facts as reported by LE or MSM, and link them. Link them often if necessary.
Please clearly state when it is your opinion. If you are making an inference please clearly outline and link the facts and evidence that have led you to form that inference. Wild speculation about any case player has no place here.
Please PM a mod with any questions or concerns and alert any TOS violations or offensive posts.
And finally, PLEASE address one another respectfully. Last reminder.

We will no longer allow discussion of Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, or the Black Panther protest(s). There are way too many <modsnips> and timeouts to continue this discussion. We will allow MSM links to such protests, but no discussion.
We need to stick to the facts of this case and that's our discussion here. Please, we ask that you do what you do best - SLEUTH THE CASE.
Blogs and Twitter links and discussion of them are allowed only if it's an approved WS link or a link from main stream media (MSM).


Thread #1 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165269&highlight=Trayvon)
Thread #2 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166351&highlight=Trayvon+martin)
Thread #3 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166513&highlight=Trayvon+martin)
Thread #4 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166660&highlight=Trayvon+martin)
Thread #5
Thread #6 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166872&highlight=Trayvon+Martin)
Thread #7 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167001&highlight=Trayvon+Martin)
Thread #8 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167151&highlight=y%2Fo+teen)
Thread #9
Thread #10
Thread #11
Thread #12
Thread #13

Clairfication on WS stance regarding the "victim friendly" issue.
I had a discussion with the owners about how we were to deal with this. This is what I was advised:
At this point in the investigation we don't KNOW exactly who ALL the victims are now. We KNOW that Trayvon is a victim, because he is dead. However, news breaks and new leaks come forth everyday and it is still unclear whether Zimmerman was a victim of any violence. Until more verifiable FACTS are available, WS has chosen to err on the side of treating both the confirmed (Trayvon) AND potential (Zimmerman) victim, both as victims.
Like I said, that may change after we have more verifiable information
Hope that helps clear this up.
Please bump as needed.

Just a reminder:
WS does not permit links that request or suggest sending donations without the clear permission of the owners . This is to protect our members and for no other reason.
__________________

We are not allowing discussion of Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, the Black Panthers or any of the other possible protests.
Blogs and Twitters are disallowed unless its a WS known (allowed) blogger and twitter account or MSM, so they will be very limited.
MSM links to the protests will be allowed in the media threads but no discussion.

songline
04-01-2012, 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by OneLove True. And this is why people should not formulate their opinions based on emotion, conjecture, and bias. Remaining neutral until facts are revealed and allow the true puzzle to be filled in saves one a LOT of wear and tear on the adrenals, lol.

RIGHT ON :woohoo:
I am getting tired of trying to say exactly
What you are saying. so thank you
staying on this thread is messing up my day.
But something keeps on pulling me back here.
I canít stand a Witch hunt on GZ.
I canít stand that the law betrayed TM
My heart goes out to both sides.

But I only know one thing for sure.
To the dead we owe the truth.
To the living we owe peace.

Jacobite
04-01-2012, 04:59 PM
Let's get the big picture here. If Zimmerman had not intercepted Martin, Martin would have gone home, watched a ballgame and enjoyed a snack with his brother. He was preparing for college and the field of aviation. This was his plan. He was not committing a crime. He was only guilty of wearing clothes that are now the popular style with millions of kids around the world from all classes. Zimmerman was in error singling out this kid in the first place. That's the big picture.
Also, this fable about Martin carrying out an ambush and attack while on the phone does not add up. How can someone attack you while on the phone?

belle3
04-01-2012, 05:08 PM
quick question. Does anyone know how long gz lived in this community?

ThoughtFox
04-01-2012, 05:10 PM
43. Jan. 29, 2012 – 5:38 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Disturbance
Report: Children “running and playing in the street”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/22/george-zimmerman-s-history-of-911-calls-a-complete-log.html

I feel sorry for dispatchers when people are reporting kids on a public street as a possible crime. I think that's abuse of 911. All taxpayers own the street, and that's part of the problem I have with the Trayvon case. Zimmerman could have no way of knowing what Trayvon was thinking or doing, since he wasn't a mind reader and didn't know the boy. Projecting thoughts onto a target as if that is reality is wrong and all in his mind.

George Zimmerman was not in his "castle" on the street, and owning a gun didn't make him a free lance cop. Even if someone was beating him or verbally threatening him, that doesn't mean he had just cause to point and shoot.

Those last points are straight from the Florida Division of Licensing (http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html)

Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?

A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:

* Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
* Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.

Using or displaying a handgun in any other circumstances could result in your conviction for crimes such as improper exhibition of a firearm, manslaughter, or worse.

Example of the kind of attack that will not justify defending yourself with deadly force: Two neighbors got into a fight, and one of them tried to hit the other by swinging a garden hose. The neighbor who was being attacked with the hose shot the other in the chest. The court upheld his conviction for aggravated battery with a firearm, because an attack with a garden hose is not the kind of violent assault that justifies responding with deadly force.

*snip*

Q. What if I point my handgun at someone but don't use it?

A. Never display a handgun to gain "leverage" in an argument. Threatening someone verbally while possessing a handgun, even licensed, will land you in jail for three years. Even if the gun is broken or you don't have bullets, you will receive the mandatory three-year sentence if convicted. The law does not allow any possibility of getting out of jail early.
(example at link)

Q. What if someone uses threatening language to me so that I am afraid for my life or safety?

A. Verbal threats are not enough to justify the use of deadly force. There must be an overt act by the person which indicates that he immediately intends to carry out the threat. The person threatened must reasonably believe that he will be killed or suffer serious bodily harm if he does not immediately take the life of his adversary.

*snip*

Q. What if I see a crime being committed?

A. A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman. But, as stated earlier, deadly force is justified if you are trying to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. The use of deadly force must be absolutely necessary to prevent the crime. Also, if the criminal runs away, you cannot use deadly force to stop him, because you would no longer be "preventing" a crime. If use of deadly force is not necessary, or you use deadly force after the crime has stopped, you could be convicted of manslaughter.

Much More at Link: http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html

w1df10wr
04-01-2012, 05:19 PM
quick question. Does anyone know how long gz lived in this community?

IIRC, GZ & his wife moved to the Retreat at Twin Lakes complex, sometime in summer of 2009.
Edit to add link: http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article1221799.ece
"George Zimmerman, 28, moved into the Retreat in the summer of 2009 with his wife, Shellie."

LambChop
04-01-2012, 05:23 PM
I keep seeing witch hunt:

"The term "witch-hunt" since the 1930s has also been in use as a metaphor to refer to moral panics in general (frantic persecution of perceived enemies).' from the dictionary

I'm not sure that is the right term. Trying to find out what happened that night and the motivations of both people involved is not a witch hunt on GZ. GZ has a past history of violent behavior and we have all read the articles and statements. Descriptions from those who know him. They are facts that give us an idea of where GZ was coming from that night. Statements made by his family, his attorney, his neighbors all figure in to give us an idea of what made him step out of the car and go after TM. There is a reason and we are getting close to the truth.

And this is not directed at any one post but when I see a very defensive posting regarding GZ it leads me to believe some are feeling the sand shifting beneath their feet so in order to gain their balance they have to find wrong with the other person. We were asked to stick to the facts and I think that is what we are all trying to do so examining GZ is our only option when we do not know why he decided to follow TM.

All I have heard from those who support GZ's story is that GZ was justified. But why? We have no proof that all of what GZ has said is true. Day-by-day we are seeing more and more to discredit him. GZ gave a statement and if what he said is not ringing true that calls for us to question everything he has claimed happened that night. It is what investigators do. No one has yet given him a free ticket. And there will be more to come.

While two people can contribute to an event usually only one is the instigator. The initial part of the instigation was the call to LE by GZ. We have a right to know why he made that call. jmo

LolaMoon08
04-01-2012, 05:25 PM
IIRC, GZ & his wife moved to the Retreat at Twin Lakes complex, sometime in 2009.

I believe the call about the landlord wanting to collect rent money and where Zimmerman says he lives in Twin Lakes happened in August 2009? The first call to 911 from Zimmerman in the Twin Lakes community happened in October 2009? So somewhere between August 2009 and October 2009?

LolaMoon08
04-01-2012, 05:26 PM
I keep seeing witch hunt:

"The term "witch-hunt" since the 1930s has also been in use as a metaphor to refer to moral panics in general (frantic persecution of perceived enemies).' from the dictionary

I'm not sure that is the right term. Trying to find out what happened that night and the motivations of both people involved is not a witch hunt on GZ. GZ has a past history of violent behavior and we have all read the articles and statements. Descriptions from those who know him. They are facts that give us an idea of where GZ was coming from that night. Statements made by his family, his attorney, his neighbors all figure in to give us an idea of what made him step out of the car and go after TM. There is a reason and we are getting close to the truth.

And this is not directed at any one post but when I see a very defensive posting regarding GZ it leads me to believe some are feeling the sand shifting beneath their feet so in order to gain their balance they have to find wrong with the other person. We were asked to stick to the facts and I think that is what we are all trying to do so examining GZ is our only option when we do not know why he decided to follow TM.

All I have heard from those who support GZ's story is that GZ was justified. But why? We have no proof that all of what GZ has said is true. Day-by-day we are seeing more and more to discredit him. GZ gave a statement and if what he said is not ringing true that calls for us to question everything he has claimed happened that night. It is what investigators do. No one has yet given him a free ticket. And there will be more to come.

While two people can contribute to an event usually only one is the instigator. The initial part of the instigation was the call to LE by GZ. We have a right to know why he made that call. jmo

I think the term "witch hunt" applies to GZ's actions in the city of Sanford since 2004 more than it applies to what is happening now?

LolaMoon08
04-01-2012, 05:29 PM
I'm actually surprised that we haven't seen calls from Zimmerman on October 31st (of any year) complaining about "suspicious masked midgets" knocking at doors.

MOO

belle3
04-01-2012, 05:29 PM
IIRC, GZ & his wife moved to the Retreat at Twin Lakes complex, sometime in summer of 2009.
Edit to add link: http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article1221799.ece
"George Zimmerman, 28, moved into the Retreat in the summer of 2009 with his wife, Shellie."

Thank you very much

JBean
04-01-2012, 05:29 PM
couple people have asked me for Zimmerman's 911 call history. here is the link for those that do not have it:

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/911CallHistory.pdf

TonyGatto
04-01-2012, 05:30 PM
Let's get the big picture here. If Zimmerman had not intercepted Martin, Martin would have gone home, watched a ballgame and enjoyed a snack with his brother. He was preparing for college and the field of aviation. This was his plan. He was not committing a crime. He was only guilty of wearing clothes that are now the popular style with millions of kids around the world from all classes. Zimmerman was in error singling out this kid in the first place. That's the big picture.
Also, this fable about Martin carrying out an ambush and attack while on the phone does not add up. How can someone attack you while on the phone?

I know we don't have all the evidence yet, but from what we do know it is inconceivable to me how anyone can make the case that TM attacked GZ.

vlpate
04-01-2012, 05:30 PM
Let's get the big picture here. If Zimmerman had not intercepted Martin, Martin would have gone home, watched a ballgame and enjoyed a snack with his brother. He was preparing for college and the field of aviation. This was his plan. He was not committing a crime. He was only guilty of wearing clothes that are now the popular style with millions of kids around the world from all classes. Zimmerman was in error singling out this kid in the first place. That's the big picture.
Also, this fable about Martin carrying out an ambush and attack while on the phone does not add up. How can someone attack you while on the phone?

Ear buds.

rbrnmw2
04-01-2012, 05:34 PM
I'm actually surprised that we haven't seen calls from Zimmerman on October 31st (of any year) complaining about "suspicious masked midgets" knocking at doors.

MOO

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

LolaMoon08
04-01-2012, 05:35 PM
Also, Zimmerman was not appointed "Neighborhood Watch Captain" until September 2011. So about two years after he had already lived in that community. I know this because Zimmerman made what appears to be a call to the non-emergency line just to tell them that he was the Neighborhood Watch Captain. :banghead:

katydid23
04-01-2012, 05:36 PM
I know we don't have all the evidence yet, but from what we do know it is inconceivable to me how anyone can make the case that TM attacked GZ.

I think there is a possibility. GZ is standing right where TM needs to go to get back home. GZ says 'what are you doing here?' Then we hear a scuffle start according to the girlfriend. Maybe TM shoved GZ in an effort to get past him and get home?

stmarysmead
04-01-2012, 05:38 PM
http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-03/69081607-29132322.pdf

In this first police report, it says GZ had bleeding from nose and head and grassstains on his back.He says he was screaming for help.
Police officier observed GZ's back was "wet."

JBean
04-01-2012, 05:39 PM
43. Jan. 29, 2012 – 5:38 p.m.
Type: TEL
Subject: Disturbance
Report: Children “running and playing in the street”



I am no GZ defender at this point- but in fairness- the Daily Beast took liberties with some their editing.
the actual report reads the kids were running in front of cars in the street.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/911CallHistory.pdf

I recommend reading the actual 911 events as opposed to reading recaps written by others. JMHO of course.

LolaMoon08
04-01-2012, 05:40 PM
http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-03/69081607-29132322.pdf

In this first police report, it says GZ had bleeding from nose and head and grassstains on his back.He says he was screaming for help.

Yes, we're waiting for the photographic evidence LE took at the scene of Zimmerman's injuries and forensics to come back on both Zimmerman and Trayvon's clothes to determine what happened during the altercation.

LambChop
04-01-2012, 05:42 PM
I think the term "witch hunt" applies to GZ's actions in the city of Sanford since 2004 more than it applies to what is happening now?

And I think there is a big difference between discussing GZ's motivations and past documented history and a "preceived threat" that somehow our lives are in danger because of GZ. That is what that specific term implies and there is no such threat.

I was hoping the goal here was discuss both sides with what we know. Ask questions about what we don't know and if we reach a deadend, that is clearly a deadend...let it go. I do know that it looks as if it is coming down to both were on the ground and one pulled out the gun. I'd guess it was GZ because he had control and there was a struggle then GZ pulled the trigger. What does not sound good are those 911 tapes and if that is TM screaming no, no that tells us TM was the one who felt in fear of his life.

It is a very sad situation that did not have to turn out the way it did. I don't think GZ was a bad guy. I think he made a very grave error and someone lost their life. TM's life should be worth something. Something good should come from this and I truly think TM's parents are doing the best they can to make that happen. jmo

ThoughtFox
04-01-2012, 05:44 PM
I am no GZ defender at this point- but in fairness- the Daily Beast took liberties with some their editing.
the actual report reads the kids were running in front of cars in the street.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/911CallHistory.pdf

I recommend reading the actual 911 events as opposed to reading recaps written by others. JMHO of course.

I couldn't actually find it in those documents - sorry - but I would say that it's a matter of interpretation just what the children were doing.

I think there's a pattern of trying to make normal things sound sinister. In one call, someone is reported for knocking on the door. Boys playing basketball near the pool is a 911 offense? People wearing tank tops and shorts? For some of those it's hard to tell just what offense George is trying to report.

highflyer
04-01-2012, 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by OneLove True. And this is why people should not formulate their opinions based on emotion, conjecture, and bias. Remaining neutral until facts are revealed and allow the true puzzle to be filled in saves one a LOT of wear and tear on the adrenals, lol.

RIGHT ON :woohoo:
I am getting tired of trying to say exactly
What you are saying. so thank you
staying on this thread is messing up my day.
But something keeps on pulling me back here.
I canít stand a Witch hunt on GZ.
I canít stand that the law betrayed TM
My heart goes out to both sides.

But I only know one thing for sure.
To the dead we owe the truth.
To the living we owe peace.

There is no witch hunt on GZ. It appears the man almost got away with stalking and killing a teenager. GZ deserves no peace at this point but he does deserve all safety and rights afforded him by law and a trial by his peers. It will not bring Trayvon Martin back but hopefully it will bring a measure of peace to his family.

annalia
04-01-2012, 05:46 PM
I think there is a possibility. GZ is standing right where TM needs to go to get back home. GZ says 'what are you doing here?' Then we hear a scuffle start according to the girlfriend. Maybe TM shoved GZ in an effort to get past him and get home?

But according to the gf, GZ was behind Trayvon, he was following him, not standing ahead of him. How would Trayvon shove him to get past him?

JMHO

JBean
04-01-2012, 05:47 PM
I couldn't actually find it in those documents - sorry. But I think there's a pattern of trying to make normal things sound sinister. In one call, someone is reported for knocking on the door. Boys playing basketball near the pool is a 911 offense? People wearing tank tops and shorts? For some of those it's hard to tell just what offense George is trying to report. I'll have to look those up.
But in some instances,I think it is just the same old sensationalized reporting, that we see all the time. In one report the recap said he was reporting people for having a party at the clubhouse. the part the recap omitted was that the people didn't live in the neighborhood LOL.

katydid23
04-01-2012, 05:49 PM
But according to the gf, GZ was behind Trayvon, he was following him, not standing ahead of him. How would Trayvon shove him to get past him?

JMHO

I was looking at the map that was posted upstream here. They showed GZ coming around between the buildings and cutting off TM midway.

JBean
04-01-2012, 05:49 PM
but I would say that it's a matter of interpretation just what the children were doing.
I see you had an eta after I quoted. The only thing I was referencing was what the report said and what The daily Beast reported it said-not what was actually happening.

songline
04-01-2012, 05:49 PM
I keep seeing witch hunt:

"The term "witch-hunt" since the 1930s has also been in use as a metaphor to refer to moral panics in general (frantic persecution of perceived enemies).' from the dictionary

I'm not sure that is the right term. Trying to find out what happened that night and the motivations of both people involved is not a witch hunt on GZ. GZ has a past history of violent behavior and we have all read the articles and statements. Descriptions from those who know him. They are facts that give us an idea of where GZ was coming from that night. Statements made by his family, his attorney, his neighbors all figure in to give us an idea of what made him step out of the car and go after TM. There is a reason and we are getting close to the truth.

And this is not directed at any one post but when I see a very defensive posting regarding GZ it leads me to believe some are feeling the sand shifting beneath their feet so in order to gain their balance they have to find wrong with the other person. We were asked to stick to the facts and I think that is what we are all trying to do so examining GZ is our only option when we do not know why he decided to follow TM.

All I have heard from those who support GZ's story is that GZ was justified. But why? We have no proof that all of what GZ has said is true. Day-by-day we are seeing more and more to discredit him. GZ gave a statement and if what he said is not ringing true that calls for us to question everything he has claimed happened that night. It is what investigators do. No one has yet given him a free ticket. And there will be more to come.

While two people can contribute to an event usually only one is the instigator. The initial part of the instigation was the call to LE by GZ. We have a right to know why he made that call. jmo
We can use witch hunt, lynching mob, hangin a man.
All means the same, and I m sure there are other terms too.

FINDING OUT what happened means INVESTIGATION
It does not mean conclusions.
When people pretend to know without FACTS they are
not finding out anything.
I made red the statements that you make here that are no IMO correct.
HERE IS WHY: When you paint GZ into a Character analysis.
You must paint both people for a fair analysis. Because the public does not know
either of them and it sets up public opinions that are tainted, or swayed.

I for one am trying to keep the game on the ball which is
INVESTIGATE THOROUGHLY
I am not on the GZ camp or the TM camp.
I am clearly disgusted with the law and the way the legal system handled it.
But hanging GZ is WRONG. And stroking TM is just as wrong.
IMHO I see the many who stroke TM as enablers,
And Those who are standing up for GZ - not allowing a lynching.

JBean
04-01-2012, 05:50 PM
let's move past the witch hunt shall we? it pits posters against one another and it seems to imply that this is not a discussion.
thanks

Elley Mae
04-01-2012, 05:53 PM
The thing that gets me is that GZ was on the phone with dispatch and sees TM and tells the call taker what he's doing and everything, then I listen to the 911 call from the female and she had to have heard commotion for a bit before placing the call then is on the phone for 45 seconds before you hear the shot. So they struggled for at least a minute.

What happened that GZ didn't shoot TM straight away.

ThoughtFox
04-01-2012, 05:54 PM
I'll have to look those up.
But in some instances,I think it is just the same old sensationalized reporting, that we see all the time. In one report the recap said he was reporting people for having a party at the clubhouse. the part the recap omitted was that the people didn't live in the neighborhood LOL.

I see your point, but how did he know for sure they didn't live there? He didn't think Trayvon belonged there either, but he did.

Aren't people who live there allowed to invite outsiders to a pool party? I've been to parties inside gated communities before but I certainly didn't live there.

In one of the older calls that I transcribed for the Media thread, he admitted he didn't know if someone lived there or not, but that his wife thought he was connected to a burglary. We don't know what happened when police got there. The person could have been completely innocent and just taking a walk. Looking around at cars is not a crime - everyone does it as they walk along.

My point is, how much of this is the perception of the Zimmermans, and how much is reality? Without knowing the outcome of the 911 calls, we are only getting their side of the story without any balance.

Wise Old Owl
04-01-2012, 05:55 PM
I wish we could get at least an idea of how long LE was at the scene that night. We know GZ was taken to the station 35 minutes after the shooting. And we know that TM's dad was home 10:45 - 11:00 and said there was no sign of anything by then.

So, how long where they there? Residents would know - I bet even some of them stood out there and watched them. It does take some time for the CSI techs to take all the pictures and bag and tag the evidence. But really what evidence? Only thing on that partial police report taken into evidence was the gun.

Years ago - when we had a neighbor commit suicide - man, they were there for a good 4 - 5 hours. And what evidence would they have had to collect there as well? She used a gun and just sat down in a chair. I do know it did take a while for the ME to show up.

That's another thing - we haven't heard when the ME got there or anything. But the time frame we've been given just doesn't sit right with me. How could they have done all they need to do in that short of time?

And,

And,

Where is Trayvon's phone?




JMHO

suzihawk
04-01-2012, 05:56 PM
I'll have to look those up.
But in some instances,I think it is just the same old sensationalized reporting, that we see all the time. In one report the recap said he was reporting people for having a party at the clubhouse. the part the recap omitted was that the people didn't live in the neighborhood LOL.

I understand what you're saying, JBean. But just because GZ didn't recognize them doesn't mean they weren't invited to a birthday party or some such event by someone who did live in the complex. Just the other side of the coin...

ETA: It appears to me that GZ didn't report things that were 'suspicious' so much as he reported things he didn't personally approve of. That's just my opinion, of course.

songline
04-01-2012, 05:56 PM
Let's get the big picture here. If Zimmerman had not intercepted Martin, Martin would have gone home, watched a ballgame and enjoyed a snack with his brother. He was preparing for college and the field of aviation. This was his plan. He was not committing a crime. He was only guilty of wearing clothes that are now the popular style with millions of kids around the world from all classes. Zimmerman was in error singling out this kid in the first place. That's the big picture.
Also, this fable about Martin carrying out an ambush and attack while on the phone does not add up. How can someone attack you while on the phone?


Sorry that is your interpretation.
Each camp paint their side the best way they can to help create PUBLIC IMPRESSION.
People then repeat what they assess from it.
I think If I was a watch person I would have sized him up the same way.
I just would not have been carrying a gun because I do not like them
So since it is legal in Florida GZ did nothing illegal.
The problem is in the 2 minutes we do not know anything about.
So since we do not know what happened in those 2 minutes you cannot see the big picture just my opinion :moo:

RANCH
04-01-2012, 05:58 PM
There is no witch hunt on GZ. It appears the man almost got away with stalking and killing a teenager. GZ deserves no peace at this point but he does deserve all safety and rights afforded him by law and a trial by his peers. It will not bring Trayvon Martin back but hopefully it will bring a measure of peace to his family.

Do we know for a fact that GZ was stalking TM? Do we even know for a fact that GZ was following TM at the time of their physical contact?

JBean
04-01-2012, 05:58 PM
I see your point, but how did he know for sure they didn't live there? He didn't think Trayvon belonged there either, but he did.

Aren't people who live there allowed to invite outsiders to a pool party? I've been to parties inside gated communities before but I certainly didn't live there.

In one of the older calls that I transcribed for the Media thread, he admitted he didn't know if someone lived there or not, but that his wife thought he was connected to a burglary.

My point is, how much of this is the perception of the Zimmermans, and how much is reality? Without knowing the outcome of the 911 calls, we are only getting their side of the story without any balance.
I cconcur with your analysis-but my point is just a much simpler one.
What the reports actually say and what other report them as saying are not quite the same.
I think many of his calls are ridiculous- like calling because someone is trying to collect rent when their house is in foreclosure. Obviously not a 911 matter.

But I am not addressing the validity of the calls-only addressing how they are reported to us as opposed to reading them for ourselves. no more- no less.

vlpate
04-01-2012, 05:59 PM
Let's get the big picture here. If Zimmerman had not intercepted Martin, Martin would have gone home, watched a ballgame and enjoyed a snack with his brother. He was preparing for college and the field of aviation. This was his plan. He was not committing a crime. He was only guilty of wearing clothes that are now the popular style with millions of kids around the world from all classes. Zimmerman was in error singling out this kid in the first place. That's the big picture.
Also, this fable about Martin carrying out an ambush and attack while on the phone does not add up. How can someone attack you while on the phone?

His clothes had nothing to do with why LE was called. The reason LE was called is on the 911 call.

We have no way to know if Zimmerman intercepted Martin. Martin took off running and had plenty of time to get to his house if that was his goal.

Zimmerman has, a decent job, a wife, a car, and at 28, had not been in trouble with the law for seven years. By all accounts, a responsible citizen contributing to society and his neighborhood.

Trayvon had been in trouble for breaking zero-tolerance rules at school several times , and had just been suspended as a result of them, that day. Why is it out of the realm of possibility that he might have looked suspicious, looking for trouble, outside of school?

The entire incident, from beginning to end, lasted SEVEN minutes.

This is seen as me taking GZ's side. The above is not me taking anyone's side, the above are just the facts.

songline
04-01-2012, 05:59 PM
I understand what you're saying, JBean. But just because GZ didn't recognize them doesn't mean they weren't invited to a birthday party or some such event by someone who did live in the complex. Just the other side of the coin...


That is true, but He had a right to size him up.
I sure would have.

IN real Estate many come to buy - I do not service them all I SIZE THEM UP.
Every profession knows how to size up people.
IMHO GZ sized him up correctly as someone to watch...
What happened past that WE DO NOT KNOW.

songline
04-01-2012, 06:01 PM
His clothes had nothing to do with why LE was called. The reason LE was called is on the 911 call.

We have no way to know if Zimmerman intercepted Martin. Martin took off running and had plenty of time to get to his house if that was his goal.

Zimmerman has, a decent job, a wife, a car, and at 28, had not been in trouble with the law for seven years. By all accounts, a responsible citizen contributing to society and his neighborhood.

Trayvon had been in trouble for breaking zero-tolerance rules at school several times , and had just been suspended as a result of them, that day. Why is it out of the realm of possibility that he might have looked suspicious, looking for trouble, outside of school?

The entire incident, from beginning to end, lasted SEVEN minutes.

This is seen as me taking GZ's side. The above is not me taking anyone's side, the above are just the facts.

GOOD POST :clap: :clap:

waltzingmatilda
04-01-2012, 06:04 PM
The following is JMO in regards to the original photo of Trayvon that was in the press.

If my son were just murdered and I was seeking justice for his murder, (gosh the very thought of this makes me feel sick) I would grab the first picture off the wall that was handy. That would be his HS graduation photo. He is now 27 years old and is becoming young man and is 'filling out' and much hairier now than when he was 18.

A former student of mine was gunned down on the sidewalk a few years ago. I taught him in fifth grade and he was murdered at age 18. His mother made public pleas for the killer to come forward. She provided a photo of 'Ty' in his football uniform that was taken about 3 to 4 yrs earlier before he aged out of Pop Warner.

I don't think that if my son were murdered that the first thing on my mind would be to go through stacks of photos in order to choose one that would please the public. I would grab the first one off the wall that's handy.

I just wish we could stop scrutinizing Tray's parents for giving his football pic to the media in the beginning. They were mourning the loss of their son, for heaven's sake. I doubt they had intentions of misleading the public. IMO, they most likely chose a photo that was immedialy at hand, ie. hanging on the wall.

JMO and all that jazz!

wm

Wise Old Owl
04-01-2012, 06:04 PM
But isn't "sizing someone up" the same as judging?

Like I said - you never get a second chance to make a first impression.

We all do it. GZ sized up or judged TM. And his first impression was wrong.

But GZ acted on that wrong first impression and he continued to make bad choices. I believe he should be held accountable and have the appropriate consequences for those bad choices.


JMHO

Elley Mae
04-01-2012, 06:05 PM
I wish we could get at least an idea of how long LE was at the scene that night. We know GZ was taken to the station 35 minutes after the shooting. And we know that TM's dad was home 10:45 - 11:00 and said there was no sign of anything by then.

So, how long where they there? Residents would know - I bet even some of them stood out there and watched them. It does take some time for the CSI techs to take all the pictures and bag and tag the evidence. But really what evidence? Only thing on that partial police report taken into evidence was the gun.

Years ago - when we had a neighbor commit suicide - man, they were there for a good 4 - 5 hours. And what evidence would they have had to collect there as well? She used a gun and just sat down in a chair. I do know it did take a while for the ME to show up.

That's another thing - we haven't heard when the ME got there or anything. But the time frame we've been given just doesn't sit right with me. How could they have done all they need to do in that short of time?

And,

And,

Where is Trayvon's phone?




JMHO

There is a post I was just talking to hubby about and it was about Trayvon's possessions which were skittles, iced tea, $22, iiirc there was no mention of phone.

So what happened to TM's phone?

vlpate
04-01-2012, 06:07 PM
I see your point, but how did he know for sure they didn't live there? He didn't think Trayvon belonged there either, but he did.

Aren't people who live there allowed to invite outsiders to a pool party? I've been to parties inside gated communities before but I certainly didn't live there.

In one of the older calls that I transcribed for the Media thread, he admitted he didn't know if someone lived there or not, but that his wife thought he was connected to a burglary. We don't know what happened when police got there. The person could have been completely innocent and just taking a walk. Looking around at cars is not a crime - everyone does it as they walk along.

My point is, how much of this is the perception of the Zimmermans, and how much is reality? Without knowing the outcome of the 911 calls, we are only getting their side of the story without any balance.

A man matching his exact description was arrested. It's in the police reports provided by LE and linked here many times.

As for the pool - if the people at the pool didn't live in the gated community, and they were not accompanied by homeowners in the gated community, they had no business being there. Some communities limit the number of guests allowed in their amenities, I don't know if this was the case or not. If they were children under a certain age, they would not be allowed at the pool without an adult homeowner, regardless of whether they lived there or not.

songline
04-01-2012, 06:07 PM
I understand what you're saying, JBean. But just because GZ didn't recognize them doesn't mean they weren't invited to a birthday party or some such event by someone who did live in the complex. Just the other side of the coin...

ETA: It appears to me that GZ didn't report things that were 'suspicious' so much as he reported things he didn't personally approve of. That's just my opinion, of course.


Maybe GZ was a bit of a PITA..or just really anal
I would much rather have that then find out a child was raped, killed because
the people have a mind your own business mentality,
GZ had a full life, this was just being a good citizen, and something went out of control.
Until we find out more from an investigation all else to me is a lynching. MOO

suzihawk
04-01-2012, 06:09 PM
His clothes had nothing to do with why LE was called. The reason LE was called is on the 911 call.

We have no way to know if Zimmerman intercepted Martin. Martin took off running and had plenty of time to get to his house if that was his goal.

Zimmerman has, a decent job, a wife, a car, and at 28, had not been in trouble with the law for seven years. By all accounts, a responsible citizen contributing to society and his neighborhood.

Trayvon had been in trouble for breaking zero-tolerance rules at school several times , and had just been suspended as a result of them, that day. Why is it out of the realm of possibility that he might have looked suspicious, looking for trouble, outside of school?

The entire incident, from beginning to end, lasted SEVEN minutes.

This is seen as me taking GZ's side. The above is not me taking anyone's side, the above are just the facts.

I don't know that for sure. Do you?

What do you think TM's goal was for taking off running if not to go home or get away from GZ?

bessie
04-01-2012, 06:11 PM
That is true, but He had a right to size him up.
I sure would have.

IN real Estate many come to buy - I do not service them all I SIZE THEM UP.
Every profession knows how to size up people.
IMHO GZ sized him up correctly as someone to watch...
What happened past that WE DO NOT KNOW.
Based on what criteria?

highflyer
04-01-2012, 06:11 PM
Do we know for a fact that GZ was stalking TM? Do we even know for a fact that GZ was following TM at the time of their physical contact?

A fact? No. From listening to the tapes and hearing GZ on the move from his truck and where the shooting happened it is a reasonable assumption. Am looking forward to a trial so that all facts may come out.

songline
04-01-2012, 06:12 PM
But isn't "sizing someone up" the same as judging?

Like I said - you never get a second chance to make a first impression.

We all do it. GZ sized up or judged TM. And his first impression was wrong.

But GZ acted on that wrong first impression and he continued to make bad choices. I believe he should be held accountable and have the appropriate consequences for those bad choices.


JMHO

Watch man must size people up or they would never suspect anyone.
they would allow anything and everything and only call when it is much too late.

What are they supposed to watch for?
someone already running with a loot?
somene already grabbing a kid into a car?
I think that would be late.
They are there to prevent that from happening.
WHAT

Wise Old Owl
04-01-2012, 06:14 PM
There is a post I was just talking to hubby about and it was about Trayvon's possessions which were skittles, iced tea, $22, iiirc there was no mention of phone.

So what happened to TM's phone?
And that right now is the $100,000. question. We have seen absolutely no confirmation of who or when or how Trayvon's was found, taken, returned, etc.

The physical location of Trayvon's phone is a complete mystery.

I've been wondering today that maybe during the course of the scuffle that maybe a button was pushed here or a picture taken there? IDK - maybe even the recording button was pushed and that's why the phone has been strangely un-talked about. IDK


JMHO

w1df10wr
04-01-2012, 06:16 PM
His clothes had nothing to do with why LE was called. The reason LE was called is on the 911 call.

We have no way to know if Zimmerman intercepted Martin. Martin took off running and had plenty of time to get to his house if that was his goal.

Zimmerman has, a decent job, a wife, a car, and at 28, had not been in trouble with the law for seven years. By all accounts, a responsible citizen contributing to society and his neighborhood.

Trayvon had been in trouble for breaking zero-tolerance rules at school several times , and had just been suspended as a result of them, that day. Why is it out of the realm of possibility that he might have looked suspicious, looking for trouble, outside of school?

The entire incident, from beginning to end, lasted SEVEN minutes.

This is seen as me taking GZ's side. The above is not me taking anyone's side, the above are just the facts.

RBBM - I don't understand why it keeps being posted that TM "ran". GZ saying it on the 911 tape, doesn't make it the truth. It was dark out, perhaps TM walked faster and GZ took it as running?

Elley Mae
04-01-2012, 06:17 PM
And that right now is the $100,000. question. We have seen absolutely no confirmation of who or when or how Trayvon's was found, taken, returned, etc.

The physical location of Trayvon's phone is a complete mystery.

I've been wondering today that maybe during the course of the scuffle that maybe a button was pushed here or a picture taken there? IDK - maybe even the recording button was pushed and that's why the phone has been strangely un-talked about. IDK


JMHO


When I saw that TM was originally listed as a John Doe I thought why wouldn't they have found out who he was from his phone.

Emeralgem
04-01-2012, 06:18 PM
Trayvon Martin - Revisited

ON NOW... CNN

Wise Old Owl
04-01-2012, 06:18 PM
Watch man must size people up or they would never suspect anyone.
they would allow anything and everything and only call when it is much too late.

What are they supposed to watch for?
someone already running with a loot?
somene already grabbing a kid into a car?
I think that would be late.
They are there to prevent that from happening.
WHAT
Well, if I was a NW person and I saw someone I thought was "suspicious" - I would continue to watch. Now if that person walked up into someone's yard or tried a vehicle's door handle or something that would lead me to believe he was going to commit a crime - then yea. But someone just walking? Nah, I would continue to watch and see what he was going to do.

The "someone snatching a kid in a car" - well that's the kinda thing you immediately call in - IMMEDIATELY. But as for property crime - nope, I would continue to watch.

If GZ had done that - we wouldn't be here today and Trayvon would be at home watching basketball.




JMHO

songline
04-01-2012, 06:20 PM
Based on what criteria?

People tell you thing with every move they make.
After reading up on TM - I walked away thinking NO squeaky clean. NO HOW!
After reading up on GZ - I walked away thinking Overzealous.

When people go on an interview they are to make good impressions.
That is right we do get impression right away.

None of it means that it had to go the way it did.
BUT GZ had a right to watch him, and size him up.

we did not ordain the way it is happening after the fact.
Maybe the legal system needs an over hall but that is not happening

songline
04-01-2012, 06:24 PM
Well, if I was a NW person and I saw someone I thought was "suspicious" - I would continue to watch. Now if that person walked up into someone's yard or tried a vehicle's door handle or something that would lead me to believe he was going to commit a crime - then yea. But someone just walking? Nah, I would continue to watch and see what he was going to do.

The "someone snatching a kid in a car" - well that's the kinda thing you immediately call in - IMMEDIATELY. But as for property crime - nope, I would continue to watch.

If GZ had done that - we wouldn't be here today and Trayvon would be at home watching basketball.




JMHO


MY point is once that kid is in a car it is too late,
A watchmen is to watch and call.
A watchmen should hopefully not wait till it s too late.

What really happened in those 2 minutes is what we do not know.

JBean
04-01-2012, 06:24 PM
Maybe GZ was a bit of a PITA..or just really anal
I would much rather have that then find out a child was raped, killed because
the people have a mind your own business mentality,
GZ had a full life, this was just being a good citizen, and something went out of control.
Until we find out more from an investigation all else to me is a lynching. MOO
Now comparing Zimmerman's tendency to go overboard with 911 calls and people failing to call to report child rape or murder is not a fair comparison.

Some of his reports are of the mind your own business nature. But people minding their own business when it comes to child rape and murder is a completely different animal that does not really come into play in this discussion.

suzihawk
04-01-2012, 06:24 PM
Watch man must size people up or they would never suspect anyone.
they would allow anything and everything and only call when it is much too late.

What are they supposed to watch for?
someone already running with a loot?
somene already grabbing a kid into a car?
I think that would be late.
They are there to prevent that from happening.
WHAT

No. They are there as eyes and ears to report suspicious behavior to the correct authorities to take action . I repeat, SUSPICIOUS behavior. Not behavior he doesn't happen to approve of. MOO

Tulessa
04-01-2012, 06:25 PM
But isn't "sizing someone up" the same as judging?

Like I said - you never get a second chance to make a first impression.

We all do it. GZ sized up or judged TM. And his first impression was wrong.

But GZ acted on that wrong first impression and he continued to make bad choices. I believe he should be held accountable and have the appropriate consequences for those bad choices.


JMHO

Great post!!!:woohoo:

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 06:25 PM
His clothes had nothing to do with why LE was called. The reason LE was called is on the 911 call.

We have no way to know if Zimmerman intercepted Martin. Martin took off running and had plenty of time to get to his house if that was his goal.

Zimmerman has, a decent job, a wife, a car, and at 28, had not been in trouble with the law for seven years. By all accounts, a responsible citizen contributing to society and his neighborhood.

Trayvon had been in trouble for breaking zero-tolerance rules at school several times , and had just been suspended as a result of them, that day. Why is it out of the realm of possibility that he might have looked suspicious, looking for trouble, outside of school?

The entire incident, from beginning to end, lasted SEVEN minutes.

This is seen as me taking GZ's side. The above is not me taking anyone's side, the above are just the facts.

How far away was he from his house and if he was running how long would it take him to get to his house?

vlpate
04-01-2012, 06:25 PM
I wish we could get at least an idea of how long LE was at the scene that night. We know GZ was taken to the station 35 minutes after the shooting. And we know that TM's dad was home 10:45 - 11:00 and said there was no sign of anything by then.
Including his son. He said he called Trayvon's phone a couple of times and went to bed. Didn't the other boy tell his dad Trayvon just went to the store and was supposed to be back? Was the other boy scared when he didn't return? Wouldn't one think the boy would call Tracy or his mom, Tracy's girlfriend, and tell them Trayvon had not returned? Am I to believe the other boy (not sure how old he is), did not hear anything? Sirens? Nothing? When Tracy got home, and Trayvon had been gone four hours - why didn't he go looking for his child? Maybe run up to the 7-11 and ask if they'd seen him?

If my child said they were going to the store and would be right back, and I couldn't reach her on the phone, even at 27 years old, I would be in panic mode. I know I'd call the cousin if I thought he was with him. I can't completely buy all that's been told to us about that night, after Trayvon was killed, because the story Tracy first told, has changed. This should not be construed, in any way, that I blame the father for Trayvon's death, because that would be ludicrous. This is to say I don't think Tracy is being straightforward about where Trayvon was supposed to be that evening.

So, how long where they there? Residents would know - I bet even some of them stood out there and watched them. It does take some time for the CSI techs to take all the pictures and bag and tag the evidence. But really what evidence? Only thing on that partial police report taken into evidence was the gun.
That's just it, there was no other evidence. It stands to reason pictures were taken, but I wouldn't expect those to be on the initial police report. They are partial anyway, so who knows what else was on them.

Years ago - when we had a neighbor commit suicide - man, they were there for a good 4 - 5 hours. And what evidence would they have had to collect there as well? She used a gun and just sat down in a chair. I do know it did take a while for the ME to show up.
They may not have believed it was suicide? They probably took fingerprints, blood spatter evidence, etc. JMO In the case of GZ & Trayvon, it was clear who shot whom.

That's another thing - we haven't heard when the ME got there or anything. But the time frame we've been given just doesn't sit right with me. How could they have done all they need to do in that short of time?

And,

And,

Where is Trayvon's phone?

JMHO
Does LE not have it?

songline
04-01-2012, 06:26 PM
The thing that gets me is that GZ was on the phone with dispatch and sees TM and tells the call taker what he's doing and everything, then I listen to the 911 call from the female and she had to have heard commotion for a bit before placing the call then is on the phone for 45 seconds before you hear the shot. So they struggled for at least a minute.

What happened that GZ didn't shoot TM straight away.


GOOD POST :clap: :clap:
He was not out to shoot...that is why he did not.
SOMETHING HAPPEND.

OneLove
04-01-2012, 06:27 PM
[QUOTE=ThoughtFox;7746266][B]43. Jan. 29, 2012

Elley Mae
04-01-2012, 06:30 PM
[QUOTE=ThoughtFox;7746266][B]43. Jan. 29, 2012

At that price I 'll take 2
:what:

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 06:31 PM
When I saw that TM was originally listed as a John Doe I thought why wouldn't they have found out who he was from his phone.

if Tracy Martin filed a missing person's report the next day, I would think the police would produce a picture of his son at the morgue to see if that was his son.

I do not believe for a minute that the police did not tell them that their son was at the morgue until three days later.

http://www.themadisontimes.com/news_details.php?news_id=1875

Something about the Martin family's story stinks.

they just showed some of the pictures of what it was like that night on my local news and they did have crime scene tape around the area, So I would think they (LE) was out there for quite some time.

vlpate
04-01-2012, 06:31 PM
How far away was he from his house and if he was running how long would it take him to get to his house?

70 yards from where his body was found, his dad said 100 yds. He was headed toward his house from the club house area...two minutes, judging the distance on google map and where his body was found....would have been plenty of time for an athletic 17 yr old to run home.

katydid23
04-01-2012, 06:32 PM
Well, if I was a NW person and I saw someone I thought was "suspicious" - I would continue to watch. Now if that person walked up into someone's yard or tried a vehicle's door handle or something that would lead me to believe he was going to commit a crime - then yea. But someone just walking? Nah, I would continue to watch and see what he was going to do.

The "someone snatching a kid in a car" - well that's the kinda thing you immediately call in - IMMEDIATELY. But as for property crime - nope, I would continue to watch.

If GZ had done that - we wouldn't be here today and Trayvon would be at home watching basketball.

JMHO

BBM

That is exactly where I get stuck. As you say, he should have just watched, nothing more. And I agree. He was evidently trying to watch and keep TM in sight until LE arrived. But something bad happened in a couple of short minutes that sent everything sideways.

I have a hard time believing that GZ just shot him in cold blood right next to all of those windows, and knowing LE was arriving any moment. Something triggered the shooting. But what? We know they were rolling around the ground at some point, so how did that happen?

Who started the physical confrontation? I do not see any evidence yet that it was absolutely GZ who did so.

Tulessa
04-01-2012, 06:33 PM
GOOD POST :clap: :clap:
He was not out to shoot...that is why he did not.
SOMETHING HAPPEND.

If he had shot TM right away, he would have zilch, nadda nothing in the line to use as a defense. Of course he didn't shoot him right away. He was advised to NOT EVEN follow him. Did he listen? Nope.

octobermoon
04-01-2012, 06:34 PM
Based on what criteria?

(quotes are broke)

George shot Trayvon. That is a fact. How on this green earth is anyone disputing this? George shot Trayvon dead. :( My heart hurts. :(

Tulessa
04-01-2012, 06:36 PM
(quotes are broke)

George shot Trayvon. That is a fact. How on this green earth is anyone disputing this? George shot Trayvon dead. :( My heart hurts. :(

:seeya: octobermoon :blowkiss:

w1df10wr
04-01-2012, 06:36 PM
if Tracy Martin filed a missing person's report the next day, I would think the police would produce a picture of his son at the morgue to see if that was his son.

I do not believe for a minute that the police did not tell them that their son was at the morgue until three days later.

http://www.themadisontimes.com/news_details.php?news_id=1875

Something about the Martin family's story stinks.

RBBM - I'm pretty sure that was a media source misreporting that information.
http://www.examiner.com/unsolved-cases-in-national/trayvon-martin-morgue-3-days-as-john-doe-after-mom-reported-him-missing
~"It is unclear why ABC News reported that Trayvon's body was left in the morgue for three days, classified as "John Doe."~

gxm
04-01-2012, 06:37 PM
I couldn't actually find it in those documents - sorry - but I would say that it's a matter of interpretation just what the children were doing.

I think there's a pattern of trying to make normal things sound sinister. In one call, someone is reported for knocking on the door. Boys playing basketball near the pool is a 911 offense? People wearing tank tops and shorts? For some of those it's hard to tell just what offense George is trying to report.

Not all of the calls were to 911, only 17. Most of the calls were to the non-emergency number. The kids playing basketball and jumping over the fence to go into the pool area (June 2009) was called in to the non-emergency number.

IMO, he is just describing what the "subs" are wearing, not complaining about what they are wearing.

Did anyone notice that the April 2011 call involved (apparently) a child walking to school on a busy street unsupervised and GZ was concerned for the child's welfare?

Yes, I think he called LE a lot. But I don't believe that's evidence of intent to kill TM.

I just can't get out of my mind the time I called the non-emergency number to report seeing lights in the water. I just couldn't live with myself if, the next day, I'd read of a car going off the road and into the water. The dispatcher told me they were working on the bridge and I probably just saw construction lights. I felt like an idiot. But, still, would have been devastated if I learned the next day that someone went into the water and drowned and I hadn't called.

stmarysmead
04-01-2012, 06:37 PM
Now comparing Zimmerman's tendency to go overboard with 911 calls and people failing to call to report child rape or murder is not a fair comparison.

Some of his reports are of the mind your own business nature. But people minding their own business when it comes to child rape and murder is a completely different animal that does not really come into play in this discussion.

IMO, the connection comes when people decide it is not worthwhile to get involved.They see something suspicious but it's not their problem. Maybe it is nothing....maybe it's just minor vandalism...maybe it's the prelude to a rape. How do we know?
IMO it comes into play in this discussion because sometimes over-zealous watchfulness is the price we pay for neighborhood VOLUNTEERS trying to keep the area safe. I'm not condoning or even discusing the shooting here...just the criticisms of GZ's "watchfulness." If I were living alone in that neighborhood and there had been breakins...I might consider him someone TOO involved, but I would have slept better for it.

People get fed up with crime.In addition to being afraid, they are tired of losing things they worked hard for. Do they value the neighbor who just decides to be blind to everything...do they hate the over zealous Watcher? I think many would be grateful to such a volunteer even if they thought he was a bit over the top.

TonyGatto
04-01-2012, 06:37 PM
And that right now is the $100,000. question. We have seen absolutely no confirmation of who or when or how Trayvon's was found, taken, returned, etc.

The physical location of Trayvon's phone is a complete mystery.

I've been wondering today that maybe during the course of the scuffle that maybe a button was pushed here or a picture taken there? IDK - maybe even the recording button was pushed and that's why the phone has been strangely un-talked about. IDK


JMHO

We do know the phone made its way into the lawyer Crump's hands. It was the family and their attorneys that unlocked it and figured out and diagrammed the last calls. There is no evidence that the police did anything in way of checking the phone. Apparantly they just gave it to the family. Had they tried to get the contents of the phone -- which you would think they would do in a homicide investigation -- they would have at least figured out who TM was talking to in the minutes before he was killed.

katydid23
04-01-2012, 06:38 PM
(quotes are broke)

George shot Trayvon. That is a fact. How on this green earth is anyone disputing this? George shot Trayvon dead. :( My heart hurts. :(

Right, that is not in dispute. But what made him pull the trigger at that moment? LE was on the way and he know that. And he was standing beside a dozen windows where people were home just feet away. So why after all of that noise and chaos and screaming and witnesses yelling at them from their apartments----WHY would he pull that trigger?

The only thing that makes any sense to me is that they were both fighting over control of the gun.

gxm
04-01-2012, 06:39 PM
(quotes are broke)

George shot Trayvon. That is a fact. How on this green earth is anyone disputing this? George shot Trayvon dead. :( My heart hurts. :(

Yes. He did and he admits to it. IIRC, it is in his statement. What is at question is whether he did so in self defense.

gxm
04-01-2012, 06:40 PM
Right, that is not in dispute. But what made him pull the trigger at that moment? LE was on the way and he know that. And he was standing beside a dozen windows where people were home just feet away. So why after all of that noise and chaos and screaming and witnesses yelling at them from their apartments----WHY would he pull that trigger?

The only thing that makes any sense to me is that they were both fighting over control of the gun.

I agree. I think there's a very good chance they were fighting over GZ's gun.

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 06:42 PM
Why did hid dd say TM was found 100 yards away? Was it 100 yards or 70 yards?

katydid23
04-01-2012, 06:44 PM
I agree. I think there's a very good chance they were fighting over GZ's gun.

And I think it is totally appropriate for him to be charged with manslaughter and have to prove that it was self defense,and not a case of negligent manslaughter.

But it really bothers me that people are painting this as a brutal racist cold blooded killer. That is totally unwarranted and only furthers the racial divide, imo.

songline
04-01-2012, 06:47 PM
And that right now is the $100,000. question. We have seen absolutely no confirmation of who or when or how Trayvon's was found, taken, returned, etc.

The physical location of Trayvon's phone is a complete mystery.

I've been wondering today that maybe during the course of the scuffle that maybe a button was pushed here or a picture taken there? IDK - maybe even the recording button was pushed and that's why the phone has been strangely un-talked about. IDK


JMHO

IF IF IF Trayvons phone did hold any evidence at all.
DO you think the police would not have arrested?
I don’t. I pray NOT!

I think that it looked like it was a scuffle and they were too darn lazy.

TonyGatto
04-01-2012, 06:48 PM
And I think it is totally appropriate for him to be charged with manslaughter and have to prove that it was self defense,and not a case of negligent manslaughter.

But it really bothers me that people are painting this as a brutal racist cold blooded killer. That is totally unwarranted and only furthers the racial divide, imo.

Are people really calling this a brutal racist cold blooded killing? I mean anyone of note? Of course there are wackos on either side -- but who is calling him a cold-blooded killer? And GZ does not have to be a racist to be a racial profiler. What the family is saying is they want justice, they want an investigation, an arrest -- let a jury decide.

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 06:48 PM
Ok, So If TM first hit GZ then under the SYG law if he felt his life was in danger or anything he would be able to shoot him?

I'm confused

octobermoon
04-01-2012, 06:48 PM
:seeya: octobermoon :blowkiss:

Tulessa,
I can't even imagine how much your heart feels. God bless. No words.

TonyGatto
04-01-2012, 06:49 PM
IF IF IF Trayvons phone did hold any evidence at all.
DO you think the police would not have arrested?
I donít. I pray NOT!

I think that it looked like it was a scuffle and they were too darn lazy.

According to the family attorney, police had no interest in even looking at the phone.

Elley Mae
04-01-2012, 06:50 PM
Now I will go and find tape of GZ and see if I can see gun powder residue.

If you can and have the time watch the ultimate fighters in the cage for 1 minute and see the struggle and just how long 1 minute really is.

gxm
04-01-2012, 06:50 PM
And I think it is totally appropriate for him to be charged with manslaughter and have to prove that it was self defense,and not a case of negligent manslaughter.

But it really bothers me that people are painting this as a brutal racist cold blooded killer. That is totally unwarranted and only furthers the racial divide, imo.

I agree. GZ should be charged. My fear is that there is no evidence to convict him with and that's the reason he wasn't charged. My fear is also that the final outcome will not satisfy anyone. My fear is that we'll have a lot of angry people and no revisions to the SYG gun laws that are allowing people (perhaps, but not necessarily GZ) to claim self defense when it was not warranted.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

w1df10wr
04-01-2012, 06:50 PM
We do know the phone made its way into the lawyer Crump's hands. It was the family and their attorneys that unlocked it and figured out and diagrammed the last calls. There is no evidence that the police did anything in way of checking the phone. Apparantly they just gave it to the family. Had they tried to get the contents of the phone -- which you would think they would do in a homicide investigation -- they would have at least figured out who TM was talking to in the minutes before he was killed.

RBBM - Is there a link for that, please? Because the last article I read said the family didn't get the phone back and got TM's call log, from the carrier online.

Thank you!

songline
04-01-2012, 06:53 PM
I think they were fighting over the gun and it became a case of
IT IS YOU OR ME And I am not going. :twocents:

gxm
04-01-2012, 06:54 PM
Are people really calling this a brutal racist cold blooded killing? I mean anyone of note? Of course there are wackos on either side -- but who is calling him a cold-blooded killer? And GZ does not have to be a racist to be a racial profiler. What the family is saying is they want justice, they want an investigation, an arrest -- let a jury decide.

And where are they going to find this jury? Do you really believe that GZ can get a fair trail, presumed innocent until proven otherwise? He has already been tried and found guilty of a racial hate crime by a significant portion of Americans (and around the globe).

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

JBean
04-01-2012, 06:54 PM
IMO, the connection comes when people decide it is not worthwhile to get involved.They see something suspicious but it's not their problem. Maybe it is nothing....maybe it's just minor vandalism...maybe it's the prelude to a rape. How do we know?
IMO it comes into play in this discussion because sometimes over-zealous watchfulness is the price we pay for neighborhood VOLUNTEERS trying to keep the area safe. I'm not condoning or even discusing the shooting here...just the criticisms of GZ's "watchfulness." If I were living alone in that neighborhood and there had been breakins...I might consider him someone TOO involved, but I would have slept better for it.

People get fed up with crime.In addition to being afraid, they are tired of losing things they worked hard for. Do they value the neighbor who just decides to be blind to everything...do they hate the over zealous Watcher? I think many would be grateful to such a volunteer even if they thought he was a bit over the top.
Unfortunately the only information we can confirm are GZ's own words on the 911 call-he saw a kid walking around and looking around and that something was not right with him.
What we don't know is if what he saw is what any of us may see. What did he use as the basis of his judgment? What is the yardstick for suspicious behavior that he uses?Judging him (which we must also do in this case) or using his own previous police calls as our yardstick it may be reasonable to see the picture being painted of a man that MAY see innocent things as a potential problems, when they really are not. he is watching for things, IMO, that may or may not be there in an effort to keep order in the community. While I applaud his basic intention of keeping things safe in his community-this is a case in point where sometimes that very intervention and swinging the pendulum to the other extreme of reporting everything can have devastating consequences when not handled by the proper authorities.

the irony is that it is his own watchfulness and almost paranoid behavior (IMO)ultimately caused order to be disturbed in a major way. I would rather that 5 houses were robbed than one Trayvon Martin were killed.

It may be his duty to report what he deems to be suspicious behavior but it is not his duty to try and stop it. he should have called, reported and gotten in his car and gone home.

annalia
04-01-2012, 06:54 PM
I don't know that for sure. Do you?

What do you think TM's goal was for taking off running if not to go home or get away from GZ?

And where is it even coming from that Trayvon ran all the way home??

Even his girlfriend said that isn't what happened.

She said that Trayvon said he would walk fast after he saw GZ behind him again. She also said that at one point Trayon thought he had lost him, logic would dictate that he felt that he may be safe and decided to walk again.

I've never seen it said anywhere that Trayon ran the entire time all the way back home.

JMHO

songline
04-01-2012, 06:54 PM
According to the family attorney, police had no interest in even looking at the phone.

Interesting...
This police is really no police at all. :(

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 06:55 PM
Are people really calling this a brutal racist cold blooded killing? I mean anyone of note? Of course there are wackos on either side -- but who is calling him a cold-blooded killer? And GZ does not have to be a racist to be a racial profiler. What the family is saying is they want justice, they want an investigation, an arrest -- let a jury decide.

Then why did they say this:

Ben Crump, an attorney for Martin's parents, told the panel that the family was convinced Martin was targeted for special attention because of his race, arguing that tougher laws against profiling might have averted the shooting.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/27/10885680-trayvon-martins-family-alleges-racial-profiling-before-congress

I don't think they want an investigation at all, I think they want GZ to be arrested immediately without an investigation.

annalia
04-01-2012, 06:55 PM
And where are they going to find this jury? Do you really believe that GZ can get a fair trail, presumed innocent until proven otherwise? He has already been tried and found guilty of a racial hate crime by a significant portion of Americans (and around the globe).

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Casey Anthony

OJ Simpson

Concerned Papa
04-01-2012, 06:56 PM
How far away was he from his house and if he was running how long would it take him to get to his house?

Hang on, you're about 5 minutes away from having that answer.

LambChop
04-01-2012, 06:56 PM
Great post!!!:woohoo:

It the trial for your brother's death tomorrow???

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 06:56 PM
According to the family attorney, police had no interest in even looking at the phone.

So does the Martin Family now have it?

jjenny
04-01-2012, 06:58 PM
Unfortunately the only information we can confirm are GZ's own words on the 911 call-he saw a kid walking around and looking around and that something was not right with him.
What we don't know is if what he saw is what any of us may see. What did he use as the basis of his judgment? What is the yardstick for suspicious behavior that he uses?Judging him (which we must also do in this case) or using his own previous police calls as our yardstick it may be reasonable to see the picture being painted of a man that MAY see innocent things as a potential problems, when they really are not. he is watching for things, IMO, that may or may not be there in an effort to keep order in the community. While I applaud his basic intention of keeping things safe in his community-this is a case in point where sometimes that very intervention and swinging the pendulum to the other extreme of reporting everything can have devastating consequences when not handled by the proper authorities.

the irony is that it is his own watchfulness and almost paranoid behavior (IMO)ultimately caused order to be disturbed in a major way. I would rather that 5 houses were robbed than one Trayvon Martin were killed.

It may be his duty to report what he deems to be suspicious behavior but it is not his duty to try and stop it. he should have called, reported and gotten in his car and gone home.
It is not his job but people complain all the time that bystanders don't interfere when they see something. Of course Zimmerman was wrong and Trayvon was not involved in any crimes. But if a bystander was not wrong people wouldn't complain if that bystander got involved.

octobermoon
04-01-2012, 06:58 PM
Right, that is not in dispute. But what made him pull the trigger at that moment? LE was on the way and he know that. And he was standing beside a dozen windows where people were home just feet away. So why after all of that noise and chaos and screaming and witnesses yelling at them from their apartments----WHY would he pull that trigger?

The only thing that makes any sense to me is that they were both fighting over control of the gun.

UMMM Trayvon didn't have a gun and George did? George was going for the gun and shot Trayvon dead?


I love you bunches Katydid, but a boy was shot dead by a man who had every means of escape. GZ did NOT need to follow this boy. He didn't. :truce:

JBean
04-01-2012, 06:59 PM
I think they were fighting over the gun and it became a case of
IT IS YOU OR ME And I am not going. :twocents:
But songline we have to rewind farther than that. How and why was this situation created?
A private citizen arming himself and driving the neighborhood looking for criminal activity is most likely not going to have a good ending. Trayvon good or Trayvon bad makes no difference. THIS situation was created by George Zimmerman and that's the problem I have.

gxm
04-01-2012, 06:59 PM
Casey Anthony

OJ Simpson

Exactly. I am worried that GZ will be hastily railroaded. And that, due to lack of substantial evidence, will be found NG.

Mob rule = justice for no one.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

m00c0w
04-01-2012, 07:00 PM
Are people really calling this a brutal racist cold blooded killing? I mean anyone of note? Of course there are wackos on either side -- but who is calling him a cold-blooded killer? And GZ does not have to be a racist to be a racial profiler. What the family is saying is they want justice, they want an investigation, an arrest -- let a jury decide.
BBM

A few here certainly have.

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 07:00 PM
UMMM Trayvon didn't have a gun and George did? George was going for the gun and shot Trayvon dead?


I love you bunches Katydid, but a boy was shot dead by a man who had every means of escape. GZ did NOT need to follow this boy. He didn't. :truce:

And TM had every means to run back to his house if he choose too.

annalia
04-01-2012, 07:01 PM
Then why did they say this:

Ben Crump, an attorney for Martin's parents, told the panel that the family was convinced Martin was targeted for special attention because of his race, arguing that tougher laws against profiling might have averted the shooting.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/27/10885680-trayvon-martins-family-alleges-racial-profiling-before-congress

I don't think they want an investigation at all, I think they want GZ to be arrested immediately without an investigation.

They're absolutely right. Their son was profiled because of his race. And wrongfully so. Their son was deemed up to no good because black kids had committed burglaries, no matter how you, ( the general you, not you personally ) slice it, or try to excuse it or dance around it, it's profiling. And a kid with his whole life ahead of him is now dead because of it.

The only difference may be, is who thinks that type of profiling is ok to do and who doesn't.

JMHO

songline
04-01-2012, 07:01 PM
Unfortunately the only information we can confirm are GZ's own words on the 911 call-he saw a kid walking around and looking around and that something was not right with him.
What we don't know is if what he saw is what any of us may see. What did he use as the basis of his judgment? What is the yardstick for suspicious behavior that he uses?Judging him (which we must also do in this case) or using his own previous police calls as our yardstick it may be reasonable to see the picture being painted of a man that MAY see innocent things as a potential problems, when they really are not. he is watching for things, IMO, that may or may not be there in an effort to keep order in the community. While I applaud his basic intention of keeping things safe in his community-this is a case in point where sometimes that very intervention and swinging the pendulum to the other extreme of reporting everything can have devastating consequences when not handled by the proper authorities.

the irony is that it is his own watchfulness and almost paranoid behavior (IMO)ultimately caused order to be disturbed in a major way. I would rather that 5 houses were robbed than one Trayvon Martin were killed.

It may be his duty to report what he deems to be suspicious behavior but it is not his duty to try and stop it. he should have called, reported and gotten in his car and gone home.

I Agree,
That is why I call him overzealous,
and while that is annoying it is not illegal.
But the police leaves too many questions...
When one is dead you investigate.
You canít take one manís word for it.

I think it will be a tough case.
Hate that law it is an open coral for mad men.

katydid23
04-01-2012, 07:02 PM
Are people really calling this a brutal racist cold blooded killing? I mean anyone of note? Of course there are wackos on either side -- but who is calling him a cold-blooded killer? And GZ does not have to be a racist to be a racial profiler. What the family is saying is they want justice, they want an investigation, an arrest -- let a jury decide.

There are people here saying that, imo. Saying he was on a mission to kill TM. And people that are considered leaders of the black community have said he was 'hunted' down and killed. So I do think he is being painted as such. They are comparing TM to Emmet Till.

songline
04-01-2012, 07:02 PM
And TM had every means to run back to his house if he choose too.
I think he could have made a dash home much sooner,
he was 6'3" That is LONG LEGS he could have lost GZ long ago.

:moo::moo::moo:

annalia
04-01-2012, 07:02 PM
And TM had every means to run back to his house if he choose too.

In other words, he had no right to walk home? It's his fault if he chose to walk at 7PM? Someone decided to take it upon themselves to follow him, but it's his fault for not getting away fast enough?

JMHO

stmarysmead
04-01-2012, 07:03 PM
http://www.the33tv.com/news/wpix-tryvon-foster-fact-or-fiction,0,7571524.story

This article claims an eye witness TOLD A REPORTER that GZ was yelling for help and ne told him that he had called 911.

Question : is it true that TM was with his younger brother AGE 13...buying skittles for him? Weren't they just watching TV together and planned to do so again? If the house was so close, was the brother a witness? Had he left the home and not waited for his brother? Did he also return late enough to see nothing?
Did he tell anyone that his brother went to the store and never came back? TM knew no one there in that area...so where has the family said they thought he was all night?

I have not read anything on this.

gxm
04-01-2012, 07:03 PM
But songline we have to rewind farther than that. How and why was this situation created?
A private citizen arming himself and driving the neighborhood looking for criminal activity is most likely not going to have a good ending. Trayvon good or Trayvon bad makes no difference. THIS situation was created by George Zimmerman and that's the problem I have.

It may have been created by GZ, but it was not illegally created. Apparently, it is perfectly legal for a citizen to follow another citizen in public, as long as the surveillance doesn't break the public/private boundary.

JBean
04-01-2012, 07:03 PM
It is not his job but people complain all the time that bystanders don't interfere when they see something. Of course Zimmerman was wrong and Trayvon was not involved in any crimes. But if a bystander was not wrong people wouldn't complain if that bystander got involved. not sure I am following that but, his interference should have consisted of calling LE.
I'll bet if you ask any police officer what you should do if you are pretty sure someone you see on the street is about to commit a crime,because he is walking in a suspicious manner, not one would advise you follow him with a gun.

My point is mainly that if we peel away all the layers and get down to the basic elements of this case,it was all preventable- 100%.

songline
04-01-2012, 07:04 PM
Are people really calling this a brutal racist cold blooded killing? I mean anyone of note? Of course there are wackos on either side -- but who is calling him a cold-blooded killer? And GZ does not have to be a racist to be a racial profiler. What the family is saying is they want justice, they want an investigation, an arrest -- let a jury decide.

MARTIN's attorney - every chance he gets.

jjenny
04-01-2012, 07:04 PM
http://www.the33tv.com/news/wpix-tryvon-foster-fact-or-fiction,0,7571524.story

This article claims an eye witness TOLD A REPORTER that GZ was yelling for help and ne told him that he had called 911.

Question : is it true that TM was with his younger brother AGE 13...buying skittles for him? Weren't they just watching TV together and planned to do so again? If the house was so close, was the brother a witness? Had he left the home and not waited for his brother? Did he also return late enough to see nothing?
Did he tell anyone that his brother went to the store and never came back? TM knew no one there in that area...so where has the family said they thought he was all night?

I have not read anything on this.

His father believed Trayvon went to the movies with cousin.

OneLove
04-01-2012, 07:04 PM
Including his son. He said he called Trayvon's phone a couple of times and went to bed. Didn't the other boy tell his dad Trayvon just went to the store and was supposed to be back? Was the other boy scared when he didn't return? Wouldn't one think the boy would call Tracy or his mom, Tracy's girlfriend, and tell them Trayvon had not returned? Am I to believe the other boy (not sure how old he is), did not hear anything? Sirens? Nothing? When Tracy got home, and Trayvon had been gone four hours - why didn't he go looking for his child? Maybe run up to the 7-11 and ask if they'd seen him?

If my child said they were going to the store and would be right back, and I couldn't reach her on the phone, even at 27 years old, I would be in panic mode. I know I'd call the cousin if I thought he was with him. I can't completely buy all that's been told to us about that night, after Trayvon was killed, because the story Tracy first told, has changed. This should not be construed, in any way, that I blame the father for Trayvon's death, because that would be ludicrous. This is to say I don't think Tracy is being straightforward about where Trayvon was supposed to be that evening.


That's just it, there was no other evidence. It stands to reason pictures were taken, but I wouldn't expect those to be on the initial police report. They are partial anyway, so who knows what else was on them.


They may not have believed it was suicide? They probably took fingerprints, blood spatter evidence, etc. JMO In the case of GZ & Trayvon, it was clear who shot whom.


Does LE not have it?

SO many assumptions here. The first that pops out is that maybe you've not had kids that play video games? Even my 58 year old husband does, lol, and he wears headphones and is VERY engaged and talking to other participants while playing. He would not hear a siren going off IN THE HOUSE, lol. I know he would not hear one a distance away. Also, when people are playing, they are so intensely focused that they might not even be aware of someone shot and bleeding on the floor in front of them for a few minutes. It's a neurological thing having to do with intense focus.

But let's say Trayvon's soon to be step-brother wasn't even playing video games. Maybe it was just a tv show. Maybe it was music on his headphones. Maybe it was a phone conversation with a friend. All these could prevent him from being aware of a distant siren. By the way, do we know if there actually WAS a siren, how long it went off?

Secondly, as a mother and a GOOD watchful mother, I would not have panickednif I arrived home and my teenage son was not there, ESPECIALLY if I thought he was at the movies with his cousin. ESPECIALLY if the cousin was 20 years of age.

Thirdly, if my son did not return a call from me instantly, I would respectfully give him a decent period of time in which to return my call. He is neither my prisoner nor my slave. And if I thought he were at the movies with an older responsible person, I probably wouldn't hesitate to turn in for the night after 11:00 pm. At my house, i would know when they come in after movie is over These days, if something bad happens, you get a call. It's easy. Mostly, it might be " I'm late, didn't want to worry you", but there ARE the dreaded "I'm sorry to have to inform you" calls. When kids carry cell phones and everyone they're with carries a cellphone, there is no excuse to not get a call. Shame on the Sanford police department, horrible lapse of decency. ~Now, this is all for a kid the age of Trayvon. If my son was, did you say 27?, and I called him checking on his every move or called him panicked because he didn't return home the minute I thought he should, he would have been scheduling appointments for me with the psychiatrist. AND he would have moved himself out of the house and set appropriate boundaries for me so fast it would have made my head spin.

And lastly, what the hello does any of this have to do with Trayvon's killing ANYWAY?? What ANYONE other than Zimmerman and Trayvon did in those few moments have NO bearing on what happened. Bringing this up just contributes to a higher and deeper pile of nasty smelling BIAS and is the stuff that maddens people to the verge of violence. It is an old worn out trick when one has little other defense than to paint the victim (and his parents? stepbrother? Gf?) as somehow having been at fault for the crime. It's definitely what lynching in the old south was about. It's sad to see it still going on.

annalia
04-01-2012, 07:05 PM
Exactly. I am worried that GZ will be hastily railroaded. And that, due to lack of substantial evidence, will be found NG.

Mob rule = justice for no one.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Oh I'm sorry, I misread what you were saying.

I though you meant that he would be found guilty and unfairly so.

I apologize.

jjenny
04-01-2012, 07:06 PM
not sure I am following that but, his interference should have consisted of calling LE.
I'll bet if you ask any police officer what you should do if you are pretty sure someone you see on the street is about to commit a crime,because he is walking in a suspicious manner, not one would advise you follow him with a gun.

My point is mainly that if we peel away all the layers and get down to the basic elements of this case,it was all preventable- 100%.

Police will not advise anyone to follow, or interfere if they see something, but people constantly complain how bystanders just don't care and don't interfere.

JBean
04-01-2012, 07:06 PM
It may have been created by GZ, but it was not illegally created. Apparently, it is perfectly legal for a citizen to follow another citizen in public, as long as the surveillance doesn't break the public/private boundary.
Oh i concur and did not even mean to imply that it was illegal if that is how it came across. Generally,there is no law against using really bad judgment.

Dr.Fessel
04-01-2012, 07:07 PM
There is a post I was just talking to hubby about and it was about Trayvon's possessions which were skittles, iced tea, $22, iiirc there was no mention of phone.

So what happened to TM's phone? The police have it and refuse to give it to the parents.

katydid23
04-01-2012, 07:07 PM
UMMM Trayvon didn't have a gun and George did? George was going for the gun and shot Trayvon dead?


I love you bunches Katydid, but a boy was shot dead by a man who had every means of escape. GZ did NOT need to follow this boy. He didn't. :truce:

I totally agree that he didn't need to and SHOULD NOT have followed him. And I think he should have been arrested and charged with manslaughter because of that stupid negligent decision.

songline
04-01-2012, 07:07 PM
Ok, So If TM first hit GZ then under the SYG law if he felt his life was in danger or anything he would be able to shoot him?

I'm confused

GZ claims that TM was after his gun.
GZ sais he had to use Self Defense.

since it happened on the ground I imagine they fell from
a scuffle and both were rolling around going for the gun.

w1df10wr
04-01-2012, 07:08 PM
According to the family attorney, police had no interest in even looking at the phone.

?

Page 1 of this article has the walk thru interview with TM's dad. Toward the end of the 2nd page...

http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/trayvon-martin-shooting-timeline-leaves-many-unanswered-questions.php?page=2

~"Unanswered questions remain
The chain of events both before and after Trayvon's death leave numerous unanswered questions.
Did police retrieve Trayvon's cell phone at the scene of the shooting, and if so, why didn't they didn't use it to try to identify him by calling some of the numbers, one of which would have appeared as a call taking place at the same time as the incident? Why wouldn't they scroll through the contacts, looking for "mom" or "dad"?
That phone hasn't been seen since. The family says police never gave it to them. Trayvon's father located his girlfriend by retrieving his son's call logs online." ~

Article is from 3/23. Is that outdated info that hasn't been updated?

Concerned Papa
04-01-2012, 07:08 PM
http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMCrime3-1.png

This is what I think could be a reasonable assessment and convergence of statements, timelines, and the few facts that we have in this case. By no means do I view it as absolute, but considering the factors that are there to work with, it’s what makes the most sense to me,

What I started out with was a condensed version of the 911 call by Zimmerman where I removed non pertinent information not relating directly to time or placement. I took the running times shown and added the spans to the beginning time of the call to effect an actual timeline of occurrence for the events included.

On the portions that are theorized I have calculated distance and time using credible data which I have no problem explaining anything you’re curious about as to my methods. I think the calculations will prove to be valid whether the occurrence does or not.

I see the following 10 items as being critical time points in this chain of events. I am including my reasoning for their inclusion with each one.

(1) Trayvon Martin appears to have been at the clubhouse under an awning, due to the rain, when George Zimmerman called 911 at [7:09:34 pm]

(2) George Zimmerman appears to have parked part way down the street, talking to the 911 dispatcher and watching TM as he walked to the east towards the sidewalk [7:09:34 pm]

(3) As TM went further down the street, it seems likely to me that GZ moved his vehicle eastward to the point the sidewalk met the curb line to keep a better visual contact with TM [7:11:30 pm]

(4) Almost instantly, TM started running. [7:11:41 pm]

- At this point GZ said “S**t, he’s running” and the dispatcher immediately asked what direction he was going. GZ replied “down towards the back entrance”

-The back entrance and gate is due south at the end of the “back sidewalk”.(5) GZ can be heard getting out of his vehicle to give chase [7:12:12 pm]

-The dispatcher asked GZ at this point “Are you following him?”

-GZ’s answer was Yes.

-Although the dispatcher advised him not to follow, we now have clear information on where GZ is at and where he is headed.

-GZ’s father also enlightened us as to this critical time of events when he said “Police told George not to follow Martin, and asked him where he was. However, because he was behind the town homes he could not see the nearest address.”

This is why, Robert Zimmerman claims, his son decided to keep following Martin, so he could obtain an address to give to police

-The “back sidewalk” is between and behind two rows of residences whose addresses would be on the front or opposite sides of the buildings. In fact, this particular group of buildings and sidewalk are the only place in the development that meets the qualifiers of headed towards the back entrance, being behind the townhomes, and being blind to any street address.(6) TM, reaches his back porch. [7:12:01 pm]

-Before you get the pitchforks out, hear me out on this one. After he started running toward the south, why would TM go anywhere but home? Every step he took after leaving the clubhouse was in the direction of his back porch and door by the shortest route possible. It was only 274 feet from where he started running and at 9 mph average running times for a healthy male, it wasn’t going to take him long to get there.

-Another thing that I can’t completely get out of my mind is a statement that his mother made in the early part of this case, on Monday, February 27, 2012:

“He was on his way back home. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1qpX1S895 (7) I think <modsnip> George walked the entire length of the back sidewalk, all the way down to the “next street” at the back entrance, trying to find that <modsnip>. An average walking speed for an adult male of 3 mph, calculates his reaching the end at [7:13:57 pm]

-Robert Zimmerman said in an interview: “George went to the next street, realized where he was and was walking to his vehicle”.

-The shortest route to his vehicle was back up the side walk he came down.(8) For now, the only thing I want to point out is that walking back to the spot where Trayvon’s body was found would put him there at [7:15:26 pm]

(9) If Trayvon left his back porch at the time George Zimmerman passed him on the sidewalk, he would arrive back at the point of his death at [7:15:32 pm]

(10) Trayvon Martin was shot and killed at the spot indicated on this map on 2/26/2012 at [7:16:44]

highflyer
04-01-2012, 07:08 PM
MARTIN's attorney - every chance he gets.

I asked this earlier but received no reply so I brought this over for an answer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by songline
Me too, I would have stayed i my car with doors locked.
But we do NOT know that GZ used any deadly force.
We do know that something did happen and a boy is dead.
That is all we really know.

Just as you can imagine that maybe GZ used deadly force.
I can also imagine that maybe TM got smart and testy and caused this.
But do I know for sure? ... No I donít know anything and neither do you.

Do you believe that if someone gets smart and testy with you that you have the right to shoot them?

uvamerica
04-01-2012, 07:09 PM
Maybe GZ was a bit of a PITA..or just really anal
I would much rather have that then find out a child was raped, killed because
the people have a mind your own business mentality,
GZ had a full life, this was just being a good citizen, and something went out of control.
Until we find out more from an investigation all else to me is a lynching. MOO

I'm not getting why some are saying that this is a lynching ? George is a free man, Trayvon is dead.
From what I've read on the many threads about this case is that people
want justice, a thorough investigation (which many believe did not happen in the first place)
George took it upon his self to get out of his truck when he was told he did NOT need to do follow.
We go round n round debating on what facts we do know, yet the facts stay the same. JMO

gxm
04-01-2012, 07:11 PM
Oh I'm sorry, I misread what you were saying.

I though you meant that he would be found guilty and unfairly so.

I apologize.

IMO, GZ is guilty of manslaughter. I do not believe he intended to kill TM or that he shot him due to racial hatred. But, I also do not think that Florida law supports my opinion. IMO, Florida law may very well be on GZ's side and given the evidence to date, he can plausibly claim self defense.

I realize that my opinion is unpopular as well as complicated. We all know GZ killed TM. What we don't know, for sure, is why. I would not be able to find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt given the facts that are currently available.

ETA: I am horrified at the thought of armed neighborhood watchmen and hope that this case is a wake-up call to our nation. I agree with the commenter who said (I paraphrase) I'd rather have innumerable robberies if that would make the difference in saving a teenager's life.

bessie
04-01-2012, 07:11 PM
People tell you thing with every move they make.
After reading up on TM - I walked away thinking NO squeaky clean. NO HOW!
After reading up on GZ - I walked away thinking Overzealous.

When people go on an interview they are to make good impressions.
That is right we do get impression right away.

None of it means that it had to go the way it did.
BUT GZ had a right to watch him, and size him up.

we did not ordain the way it is happening after the fact.
Maybe the legal system needs an over hall but that is not happening

First impressions and "sizing up" I understand. In fact, I posted about it the other morning after watching my cats react to a neighborhood stray who wandered in our yard. Sometimes our first impressions are spot on, and sometimes, not so much. So while it's natural behavior, it's also foolish in practically every situation to base one's actions solely on an initial intake, especially when the actions can bring serious consequences.

What I found interesting about your previous post was your opinion that GZ "sized him up correctly as someone to watch". To our knowledge, GZ observed TM merely walking through the complex. In the 911 call, he didn't specify any other behavior that could be deemed suspicious. He did say TM was running toward the back entrance, but that was after he placed the call. At the time he dialed 911, TM was only walking. In GZ's mind -- and perhaps yours, as well -- a young man walking warranted a call to 911. I don't mean to pick on you, but I raise the point because it is at the crux of the controversy.

People are speculating here and elsewhere about TM's character because of his school suspension. But that information didn't figure into GZ's evaluation. He knew absolutely nothing about TM, yet he followed him, called 911, possibly engaged him, and ultimately shot him dead. That's where the moral to the story lies, IMO. With no information beyond what his eye could see at a distance on a rainy night, GZ reacted in alarm. Why?

TonyGatto
04-01-2012, 07:12 PM
RBBM - Is there a link for that, please? Because the last article I read said the family didn't get the phone back and got TM's call log, from the carrier online.

Thank you!

I could have sworn I heard Crump say in the news conference that they actually had possession of the phone -- but maybe I just heard this and made an assumption:


Crump said Martin's father retrieved the password to his son's phone so he could see who he spoke with before his death.

http://www.wesh.com/news/30722204/detail.html#ixzz1qphPmZbc

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 07:15 PM
So now we have TM's mother saying TM was sitting on the back porch when he was killed.

Something about their story is very off.

ok, if TM was sitting on his back porch, that would mean he made it all the way home.

So GZ would have had to run after him and shoot him on his porch.

that makes absolutely no sense.

LambChop
04-01-2012, 07:15 PM
couple people have asked me for Zimmerman's 911 call history. here is the link for those that do not have it:

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/911CallHistory.pdf

Okay, here is a perfect example in the link above:

Let's take the gun out of the equation and, in fact, replace it with an automobile. Both require you to be tested, licensed and you are expected to use both in a responsible manner.

The very first call on this list of 911 calls has GZ chasing a car down the highway, not sure what the reason is but how many people did GZ endanger by pursuing this car. He gave a description to LE and still pursued. My guess is they told him you don't need to follow them Mr. Z.

Reported: can't catch up...but he does and then reports where this person is going....again, can't catch up...and, again he reports where this person is turning so he obviously caught up with this person. How responsible is it to chase a car down the highway. You are as much a danger to everyone else as is the person you are reporting. You could kill someone. I don't think GZ ever had enough timeouts in his life. jmo

gxm
04-01-2012, 07:19 PM
I'm not getting why some are saying that this is a lynching ? George is a free man, Trayvon is dead.
From what I've read on the many threads about this case is that people
want justice, a thorough investigation (which many believe did not happen in the first place)
George took it upon his self to get out of his truck when he was told he did NOT need to do follow.
We go round n round debating on what facts we do know, yet the facts stay the same. JMO

But it is being investigated. Yes? The fact that protests are continuing leads one to believe that the protesters don't want an investigation, they want GZ hung out to dry.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

stmarysmead
04-01-2012, 07:20 PM
"lynching in the old South" had to do with only believing people that looked like you...and assuming evil of anyone with a different skin hue. It was about vigliantes screaming to not wait for justice.
IMO we need every bit of evidence about everyone who "bears witness" in this case....because the truth is the most important thing of all...not skin hue. We should all be saddened by this young man's death...but deeming it a racial murder before the full facts are known...tolerating bounties to kill GZ...DEMANDING outcomes when we do not know the evidence...and ignoring media bias...is not justice. That is the Bad Old South Part 2.

TonyGatto
04-01-2012, 07:23 PM
http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMCrime3-1.png

This is what I think could be a reasonable assessment and convergence of statements, timelines, and the few facts that we have in this case. By no means do I view it as absolute, but considering the factors that are there to work with, it’s what makes the most sense to me,

What I started out with was a condensed version of the 911 call by Zimmerman where I removed non pertinent information not relating directly to time or placement. I took the running times shown and added the spans to the beginning time of the call to effect an actual timeline of occurrence for the events included.

On the portions that are theorized I have calculated distance and time using credible data which I have no problem explaining anything you’re curious about as to my methods. I think the calculations will prove to be valid whether the occurrence does or not.

I see the following 10 items as being critical time points in this chain of events. I am including my reasoning for their inclusion with each one.

(1) Trayvon Martin appears to have been at the clubhouse under an awning, due to the rain, when George Zimmerman called 911 at [7:09:34 pm]

(2) George Zimmerman appears to have parked part way down the street, talking to the 911 dispatcher and watching TM as he walked to the east towards the sidewalk [7:09:34 pm]

(3) As TM went further down the street, it seems likely to me that GZ moved his vehicle eastward to the point the sidewalk met the curb line to keep a better visual contact with TM [7:11:30 pm]

(4) Almost instantly, TM started running. [7:11:41 pm]



(5) GZ can be heard getting out of his vehicle to give chase [7:12:12 pm]



(6) TM, reaches his back porch. [7:12:01 pm]



(7) I think <modsnip> George walked the entire length of the back sidewalk, all the way down to the “next street” at the back entrance, trying to find that f*****g c**n. An average walking speed for an adult male of 3 mph, calculates his reaching the end at [7:13:57 pm]



(8) For now, the only thing I want to point out is that walking back to the spot where Trayvon’s body was found would put him there at [7:15:26 pm]

(9) If Trayvon left his back porch at the time George Zimmerman passed him on the sidewalk, he would arrive back at the point of his death at [7:15:32 pm]

(10) Trayvon Martin was shot and killed at the spot indicated on this map on 2/26/2012 at [7:16:44]

This is interesting -- the theory that TM made it all the way home (which would answer questiond by those who say why didn't he run to the safest spot). Also it would account for what was going on during all that time.

TonyGatto
04-01-2012, 07:24 PM
But it is being investigated. Yes? The fact that protests are continuing leads one to believe that the protesters don't want an investigation, they want GZ hung out to dry.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

If there weren't protests this would be swept under the rug like so many other cases and GZ would be back on patrol with his gun on his hip.

katydid23
04-01-2012, 07:24 PM
http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMCrime3-1.png

This is what I think could be a reasonable assessment and convergence of statements, timelines, and the few facts that we have in this case. By no means do I view it as absolute, but considering the factors that are there to work with, it’s what makes the most sense to me,

What I started out with was a condensed version of the 911 call by Zimmerman where I removed non pertinent information not relating directly to time or placement. I took the running times shown and added the spans to the beginning time of the call to effect an actual timeline of occurrence for the events included.

On the portions that are theorized I have calculated distance and time using credible data which I have no problem explaining anything you’re curious about as to my methods. I think the calculations will prove to be valid whether the occurrence does or not.

I see the following 10 items as being critical time points in this chain of events. I am including my reasoning for their inclusion with each one.

(1) Trayvon Martin appears to have been at the clubhouse under an awning, due to the rain, when George Zimmerman called 911 at [7:09:34 pm]

(2) George Zimmerman appears to have parked part way down the street, talking to the 911 dispatcher and watching TM as he walked to the east towards the sidewalk [7:09:34 pm]

(3) As TM went further down the street, it seems likely to me that GZ moved his vehicle eastward to the point the sidewalk met the curb line to keep a better visual contact with TM [7:11:30 pm]

(4) Almost instantly, TM started running. [7:11:41 pm]

(5) GZ can be heard getting out of his vehicle to give chase [7:12:12 pm]

(6) TM, reaches his back porch. [7:12:01 pm]

(7) I think <modsnip> George walked the entire length of the back sidewalk, all the way down to the “next street” at the back entrance, trying to find that f*****g c**n. An average walking speed for an adult male of 3 mph, calculates his reaching the end at [7:13:57 pm]

(8) For now, the only thing I want to point out is that walking back to the spot where Trayvon’s body was found would put him there at [7:15:26 pm]

(9) If Trayvon left his back porch at the time George Zimmerman passed him on the sidewalk, he would arrive back at the point of his death at [7:15:32 pm]

(10) Trayvon Martin was shot and killed at the spot indicated on this map on 2/26/2012 at [7:16:44]

His back porch? Do you think TM was home safely and then went back out to talk to GZ?

LambChop
04-01-2012, 07:24 PM
So now we have TM's mother saying TM was sitting on the back porch when he was killed.

Something about their story is very off.

ok, if TM was sitting on his back porch, that would mean he made it all the way home.

So GZ would have had to run after him and shoot him on his porch.

that makes absolutely no sense.

How would we know that? His mother is the one who talked to LE who had GZ's statement. Perhaps he was hiding on someone's porch to get away from GZ. We know TM's gf said TM told her....he found me, so it looks as if he was trying to hide until he could run home. jmo

Cracka*Jaxx
04-01-2012, 07:25 PM
Well, if I was a NW person and I saw someone I thought was "suspicious" - I would continue to watch. Now if that person walked up into someone's yard or tried a vehicle's door handle or something that would lead me to believe he was going to commit a crime - then yea. But someone just walking? Nah, I would continue to watch and see what he was going to do.

If GZ had done that - we wouldn't be here today and Trayvon would be at home watching basketball.

JMHO

Maybe GZ WAS just watching and following. How do we know he wasn't?

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 07:26 PM
So If TM made it all the way home was he found 70 yards or 100 yards?

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1qpX1S895

"He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 07:27 PM
How would we know that? His mother is the one who talked to LE who had GZ's statement. Perhaps he was hiding on someone's porch to get away from GZ. We know TM's gf said TM told her....he found me, so it looks as if he was trying to hide until he could run home. jmo

On Monday afternoon, a FOX 35 News crew met with Tracy Martin who said the victim in the shooting is her 17-year-old son, Trayvon, who was visiting from Miami.

"He walked out of the house to go to the store. He was going to the store," she said. "He doesn't know anybody here. He just came down here, so he was bored, so he walked down to the store. He was on his way back home. I'm living down here. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1qpX1S895

i.b.nora
04-01-2012, 07:29 PM
if Tracy Martin filed a missing person's report the next day, I would think the police would produce a picture of his son at the morgue to see if that was his son.

I do not believe for a minute that the police did not tell them that their son was at the morgue until three days later.

http://www.themadisontimes.com/news_details.php?news_id=1875

Something about the Martin family's story stinks.

they just showed some of the pictures of what it was like that night on my local news and they did have crime scene tape around the area, So I would think they (LE) was out there for quite some time.
If you were to actually read The Madison Times article to which you provided a link, you would understand exactly what Tracy Martin said about how he learned his son had been killed and you wouldn't need to call Trayvon's family liars.
There is nothing in the ABC article that quotes the family directly, so they obviously got that bit of information wrong and not directly from the family.
If anyone is counting, that would mean that so far, ABC made an error in reporting, CNN made an error in reporting, Fox made an error in reporting and NBC made an error in reporting.
Just my view of it.

Nova
04-01-2012, 07:29 PM
But it is being investigated. Yes? The fact that protests are continuing leads one to believe that the protesters don't want an investigation, they want GZ hung out to dry.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

I don't agree that is a reasonable assumption. In fact, we are talking about a part of the country (my own home state, BTW) with a significant history of LE investigations that automatically favor whites over blacks.

And we have a case where there is no question who did the shooting and yet no arrest has been made in nearly six weeks.

Put those two facts together and you get people who are very cynical that the powers that be even WANT to achieve justice; and, hence, the protests. (This is not to say the public impression is correct, just that it arises out of historical context.)

And then you add the emotional impact of an unarmed teen being shot, so naturally tempers run high.

stmarysmead
04-01-2012, 07:31 PM
So are you postulating that TM made it home and then instead of going inside, confronted GZ?

Adrienne37
04-01-2012, 07:32 PM
Let's get the big picture here. If Zimmerman had not intercepted Martin, Martin would have gone home, watched a ballgame and enjoyed a snack with his brother. He was preparing for college and the field of aviation. This was his plan. He was not committing a crime. He was only guilty of wearing clothes that are now the popular style with millions of kids around the world from all classes. Zimmerman was in error singling out this kid in the first place. That's the big picture.
Also, this fable about Martin carrying out an ambush and attack while on the phone does not add up. How can someone attack you while on the phone?

Thank you for your very frank and to the point post!! Awesome!!


~jmo~

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 07:32 PM
So are you postulating that TM made it home and then instead of going inside, confronted GZ?

Who are you talking to?

Helplessly Hoping
04-01-2012, 07:32 PM
Just an observation here~slightly OT~With so many opinions/perspectives about the sensitive issues surrounding Trayvon's death being discussed here, I can't get this quote out of my mind. It has been attributed to both Anais Nin and The Talmud. It's never made more sense to me.

"We don't see things as they are; we see them as we are."

katydid23
04-01-2012, 07:34 PM
First impressions and "sizing up" I understand. In fact, I posted about it the other morning after watching my cats react to a neighborhood stray who wandered in our yard. Sometimes our first impressions are spot on, and sometimes, not so much. So while it's natural behavior, it's also foolish in practically every situation to base one's actions solely on an initial intake, especially when the actions can bring serious consequences.

What I found interesting about your previous post was your opinion that GZ "sized him up correctly as someone to watch". To our knowledge, GZ observed TM merely walking through the complex. In the 911 call, he didn't specify any other behavior that could be deemed suspicious. He did say TM was running toward the back entrance, but that was after he placed the call. At the time he dialed 911, TM was only walking. In GZ's mind -- and perhaps yours, as well -- a young man walking warranted a call to 911. I don't mean to pick on you, but I raise the point because it is at the crux of the controversy.

People are speculating here and elsewhere about TM's character because of his school suspension. But that information didn't figure into GZ's evaluation. He knew absolutely nothing about TM, yet he followed him, called 911, possibly engaged him, and ultimately shot him dead. That's where the moral to the story lies, IMO. With no information beyond what his eye could see at a distance on a rainy night, GZ reacted in alarm. Why?


Here is what I think MIGHT have happened. Our house sits on a little hill right above the community pool. And there have been some break-ins there at the pool, and some costly vandalism. Also, some people sneak in after the pool is closed to party and midnight-swim. Since my own kids used to do that in high school [ I think so anyway] I do not usually report this even though my German Shepherd alerts me to any strange occurrences there.

But when I have seen people lurking, dressed in hoodies and in dark clothing, and standing in the shadows, then YES, I call the non-emergency number.

GZ first reported that TM was under the awning at the community center. That is a likely spot for a burglary or a break-in. So GZ probably thought he had a potential burglar and so he was going to cling on to this kid, hell or high water.

He was wrong and made terrible decisions. But I do not believe he set out to murder anybody, imo. I think this was the perfect storm of horrible circumstances. Especially weird if TM was already safely on his back porch,and then went to confront GZ, imo.

Nova
04-01-2012, 07:35 PM
This is interesting -- the theory that TM made it all the way home (which would answer questiond by those who say why didn't he run to the safest spot). Also it would account for what was going on during all that time.

I'm not sure I understand why Papa thinks TM made it all the way home and then turned around and followed GZ back the length of a football field to the place where TM died.

One explanation that occurs to me, however, is that TM knew there was no adult home at the time. Perhaps he didn't want to lead a stranger to a house where there was no one except his 13-year-old (I hope that's right) step-brother?

***

On a different note, I think TM's mother's remark about his being killed "on his own back porch" may just be an emotional metaphor, another way of saying TM was basically killed in his own back yard, i.e., at home where he should have been safe. I'm not convinced she meant it as a precise location.

Adrienne37
04-01-2012, 07:36 PM
The thing that gets me is that GZ was on the phone with dispatch and sees TM and tells the call taker what he's doing and everything, then I listen to the 911 call from the female and she had to have heard commotion for a bit before placing the call then is on the phone for 45 seconds before you hear the shot. So they struggled for at least a minute.

What happened that GZ didn't shoot TM straight away.

Probably making sure his bullet was in his gun properly.


~jmo~

Concerned Papa
04-01-2012, 07:39 PM
As far as TM making it to his back porch, that's what makes the most sense to me with all the parameters of the timeline, both before and afterwards, that we know about at this point. Obviously the question becomes how did he get back up to the point his body was located at and arrive at almost the same time it calculates for GZ to reach the same point walking back up the sidewalk?

I think there are two different possibilities but I don't think he was shot on his porch. I think he was on the porch doing 2 things, one of which may have been taking off that soaking wet hoodie as he watched out for this goon running around looking for him.

stmarysmead
04-01-2012, 07:40 PM
Katydid. Has that been suggested by the authorities..That he was home but did not go inside? If afraid, whyever not?

Is this what his Mom meant?

The thing that is just heartbreaking is that this tragedy seems to have had so many missed opportunities to be avoided. Most have to do, in my opinion, with GZ...but if only TM had gone inside and called police on GZ.

katydid23
04-01-2012, 07:41 PM
Just an observation here~slightly OT~With so many opinions/perspectives about the sensitive issues surrounding Trayvon's death being discussed here, I can't get this quote out of my mind. It has been attributed to both Anais Nin and The Talmud. It's never made more sense to me.

"We don't see things as they are; we see them as we are."

I think that could also be ' we see them according to WHERE we are.'

People who live in neighborhoods where the Crips have a heavy presence are much more likely to see TM as being suspicious than someone who does not.

Having worked in an inner city high school, where there was a lot of violence, I tend to understand why GZ was suspicious. But I do not think it is fair to infer that I am a racist, which some here are doing when they point out those who are defending GZ in any way.

Emeralgem
04-01-2012, 07:43 PM
The police have it and refuse to give it to the parents.

Are you saying they still have TM's phone and are refusing to give it to his parents?

LambChop
04-01-2012, 07:45 PM
http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMCrime3-1.png

This is what I think could be a reasonable assessment and convergence of statements, timelines, and the few facts that we have in this case. By no means do I view it as absolute, but considering the factors that are there to work with, it’s what makes the most sense to me,

What I started out with was a condensed version of the 911 call by Zimmerman where I removed non pertinent information not relating directly to time or placement. I took the running times shown and added the spans to the beginning time of the call to effect an actual timeline of occurrence for the events included.

On the portions that are theorized I have calculated distance and time using credible data which I have no problem explaining anything you’re curious about as to my methods. I think the calculations will prove to be valid whether the occurrence does or not.

I see the following 10 items as being critical time points in this chain of events. I am including my reasoning for their inclusion with each one.

(1) Trayvon Martin appears to have been at the clubhouse under an awning, due to the rain, when George Zimmerman called 911 at [7:09:34 pm]

(2) George Zimmerman appears to have parked part way down the street, talking to the 911 dispatcher and watching TM as he walked to the east towards the sidewalk [7:09:34 pm]

(3) As TM went further down the street, it seems likely to me that GZ moved his vehicle eastward to the point the sidewalk met the curb line to keep a better visual contact with TM [7:11:30 pm]

(4) Almost instantly, TM started running. [7:11:41 pm]



(5) GZ can be heard getting out of his vehicle to give chase [7:12:12 pm]



(6) TM, reaches his back porch. [7:12:01 pm]



(7) I think <modsnip> George walked the entire length of the back sidewalk, all the way down to the “next street” at the back entrance, trying to find that f*****g c**n. An average walking speed for an adult male of 3 mph, calculates his reaching the end at [7:13:57 pm]



(8) For now, the only thing I want to point out is that walking back to the spot where Trayvon’s body was found would put him there at [7:15:26 pm]

(9) If Trayvon left his back porch at the time George Zimmerman passed him on the sidewalk, he would arrive back at the point of his death at [7:15:32 pm]

(10) Trayvon Martin was shot and killed at the spot indicated on this map on 2/26/2012 at [7:16:44]

How would the mother know he was on the back porch? Where did LE find the phone? Could it be the phone was on the back porch? jmo

Nova
04-01-2012, 07:45 PM
...But I do not believe he set out to murder anybody, imo....

I agree with you, at least at the time GZ is speaking to the police dispatcher: he doesn't even seem sure of TM's race, much less determined to murder an African-American.

But GZ does sound really frustrated that police have been too slow in the past to catch burglars in the neighborhood. (Whether or not GZ muttered a racial slur.) I think it's quite possible GZ resolved that the intruder wasn't going to get away "this time".

And to me, at least, it's clear that GZ has resolved to follow TM when GZ tells the dispatcher to have the police call him when they get there (rather than simply agreeing to wait for them at his truck or at the mailboxes).

I don't know what all happened in the next two minutes before the gunshot, but I'm reasonably convinced that GZ was trying to keep tabs on TM.

Adrienne37
04-01-2012, 07:46 PM
If there weren't protests this would be swept under the rug like so many other cases and GZ would be back on patrol with his gun on his hip.

Besides the fact that Trayvon was brutally murdered by Zimmerman, this is the next most concerning thing. Had it not been for Trayvon's wonderful parents, it would have been swept under the rug. It was already happening and praise the Lord that Sybrina and Tracy were not going to take no for an answer.



~jmo~

Isabelle
04-01-2012, 07:46 PM
The thing that gets me is that GZ was on the phone with dispatch and sees TM and tells the call taker what he's doing and everything, then I listen to the 911 call from the female and she had to have heard commotion for a bit before placing the call then is on the phone for 45 seconds before you hear the shot. So they struggled for at least a minute.

What happened that GZ didn't shoot TM straight away.

May have taken time to get in front of TM.

ETA to correct from to front

katydid23
04-01-2012, 07:46 PM
As far as TM making it to his back porch, that's what makes the most sense to me with all the parameters of the timeline, both before and afterwards, that we know about at this point. Obviously the question becomes how did he get back up to the point his body was located at and arrive at almost the same time it calculates for GZ to reach the same point walking back up the sidewalk?

I think there are two different possibilities but I don't think he was shot on his porch. I think he was on the porch doing 2 things, one of which may have been taking off that soaking wet hoodie as he watched out for this goon running around looking for him.

Well, if it did happen that way, and he was home safely at some point, that is not good for the prosecution. imo Why didn't he just go inside and call 911 or his dad or cousin?

If he left the safety of his home to go and confront GZ, then that leads me to believe that he threw the first punch.

w1df10wr
04-01-2012, 07:47 PM
On Monday afternoon, a FOX 35 News crew met with Tracy Martin who said the victim in the shooting is her 17-year-old son, Trayvon, who was visiting from Miami.

"He walked out of the house to go to the store. He was going to the store," she said. "He doesn't know anybody here. He just came down here, so he was bored, so he walked down to the store. He was on his way back home. I'm living down here. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1qpX1S895

RBBM - Shouldn't that be "his" and "he" instead of "her" & "she"? Or did they mean to put TM's mom's name instead of dad's.

Thank you very much for the link!

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 07:47 PM
How would the mother know he was on the back porch? Where did LE find the phone? Could it be the phone was on the back porch? jmo

That's a good question.

but in the article they said Tracy Martin, So maybe they meant him and not the mother. It was one of the first articles to be published.

katydid23
04-01-2012, 07:48 PM
How would the mother know he was on the back porch? Where did LE find the phone? Could it be the phone was on the back porch? jmo

BINGO. I wonder. But there are conflicting reports about the cell phone and who has it.

Nova
04-01-2012, 07:48 PM
As far as TM making it to his back porch, that's what makes the most sense to me with all the parameters of the timeline, both before and afterwards, that we know about at this point. Obviously the question becomes how did he get back up to the point his body was located at and arrive at almost the same time it calculates for GZ to reach the same point walking back up the sidewalk?

I think there are two different possibilities but I don't think he was shot on his porch. I think he was on the porch doing 2 things, one of which may have been taking off that soaking wet hoodie as he watched out for this goon running around looking for him.

Was TM not wearing the hoodie when he was shot? If not, I missed that. TIA.

(And, again, thanks for the detailed timeline and map. I realize you had to fill in some blanks with conjecture (which you clearly identified), but the whole project was very, very helpful to me.)

Concerned Papa
04-01-2012, 07:49 PM
I'm not sure I understand why Papa thinks TM made it all the way home and then turned around and followed GZ back the length of a football field to the place where TM died.

One explanation that occurs to me, however, is that TM knew there was no adult home at the time. Perhaps he didn't want to lead a stranger to a house where there was no one except his 13-year-old (I hope that's right) step-brother?

***

On a different note, I think TM's mother's remark about his being killed "on his own back porch" may just be an emotional metaphor, another way of saying TM was basically killed in his own back yard, i.e., at home where he should have been safe. I'm not convinced she meant it as a precise location.

I don't know for sure any of this, but I think there are two possible reasons he would walk back up to the point his body was found at.

(1) It may not have been voluntary on his part. There were statements made last week when the 911 calls were released, from the Martin's attorney about TWO gunshots being heard. One could have been a warning shot.

(2) I can't completely dismiss what I feel would likely have happened when I was that age. Rest assured, if some guy had chased and followed me like GZ did to Trayvon with no uniform, no badge, or anything else except a seemingly fanatical desire to find me? If he didn't have a gun that I could see?

We're gonna dance.

Adrienne37
04-01-2012, 07:49 PM
Okay, here is a perfect example in the link above:

Let's take the gun out of the equation and, in fact, replace it with an automobile. Both require you to be tested, licensed and you are expected to use both in a responsible manner.

The very first call on this list of 911 calls has GZ chasing a car down the highway, not sure what the reason is but how many people did GZ endanger by pursuing this car. He gave a description to LE and still pursued. My guess is they told him you don't need to follow them Mr. Z.

Reported: can't catch up...but he does and then reports where this person is going....again, can't catch up...and, again he reports where this person is turning so he obviously caught up with this person. How responsible is it to chase a car down the highway. You are as much a danger to everyone else as is the person you are reporting. You could kill someone. I don't think GZ ever had enough timeouts in his life. jmo

Thank you LambChop. This guy thought that the rules were for everyone else but him. This is why he is a wanna-be-cop vigilante. It was just a matter of time before Zimmerman killed someone, no doubt about it.


~jmo~

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 07:49 PM
RBBM - Shouldn't that be "his" and "he" instead of "her" & "he"? Or did they mean to put TM's mom's name instead of dad's.

Thank you very much for the link!

my guess is they meant to put the dad.

uvamerica
04-01-2012, 07:50 PM
But it is being investigated. Yes? The fact that protests are continuing leads one to believe that the protesters don't want an investigation, they want GZ hung out to dry.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Yes this case and George are being investigated, and rightfully so. I don't understand why some are so mad that Georges story has come into question ? JMO


I think the majority of the protesters want justice, the protest have been peaceful up to this point. Anyone calling for the lynching of GZ should be arrested. I've not heard or read anything about anyone finding George and taking the law into their own hands. Whoever wants GZ hung out to dry before a jury convicts or says not guilty isn't worth listening to in my book, they have no bearing on what I believe or think. So I'm not watching or paying attention to these rallies. JMO

Dr.Fessel
04-01-2012, 07:51 PM
As far as TM making it to his back porch, that's what makes the most sense to me with all the parameters of the timeline, both before and afterwards, that we know about at this point. Obviously the question becomes how did he get back up to the point his body was located at and arrive at almost the same time it calculates for GZ to reach the same point walking back up the sidewalk?

I think there are two different possibilities but I don't think he was shot on his porch. I think he was on the porch doing 2 things, one of which may have been taking off that soaking wet hoodie as he watched out for this goon running around looking for him.

I just have a real problem if he made it back home not getting the 13 yr old involved in it or at least telling him.

mikeysmommom
04-01-2012, 07:52 PM
Are people really calling this a brutal racist cold blooded killing? I mean anyone of note? Of course there are wackos on either side -- but who is calling him a cold-blooded killer? And GZ does not have to be a racist to be a racial profiler. What the family is saying is they want justice, they want an investigation, an arrest -- let a jury decide.

But if it was self defense under the law they can not arrest him.That is how that law is written and IMO why they did not arrest him that night.If Police can prove it was not self defense then that will change and he would be arrested.The Law needs to be looked at for changes IMO.

katydid23
04-01-2012, 07:53 PM
I don't know for sure any of this, but I think there are two possible reasons he would walk back up to the point his body was found at.

(1) It may not have been voluntary on his part. There were statements made last week when the 911 calls were released, from the Martin's attorney about TWO gunshots being heard. One could have been a warning shot.

(2) I can't completely dismiss what I feel would likely have happened when I was that age. Rest assured, if some guy had chased and followed me like GZ did to Trayvon with no uniform, no badge, or anything else except a seemingly fanatical desire to find me? If he didn't have a gun that I could see?

We're gonna dance.

If so, then you are building the perfect defense for GZ. If TM was home safely on his porch, and he then went out again solely to confront and 'dance' with GZ, then self defense will be warranted, imo.

Boytwnmom
04-01-2012, 07:54 PM
Trayvon's race was a part of why he was deemed "suspicious" when doing nothing objectively "suspicious". That doesn't mean he committed murder or shot Trayvon because he was black or anything of that nature. I do think it means that a black teen walking slowly at night was automatically suspicious to him and that things built from there. First it built to there being something wrong with him, he was on drugs and up to no good. That's the problem with profiling-it really tells you nothing about a particular individual and it can remove your objectivity and color what you see through the prism of your bias.


They're absolutely right. Their son was profiled because of his race. And wrongfully so. Their son was deemed up to no good because black kids had committed burglaries, no matter how you, ( the general you, not you personally ) slice it, or try to excuse it or dance around it, it's profiling. And a kid with his whole life ahead of him is now dead because of it.

The only difference may be, is who thinks that type of profiling is ok to do and who doesn't.

JMHO

Concerned Papa
04-01-2012, 07:54 PM
Was TM not wearing the hoodie when he was shot? If not, I missed that. TIA.

(And, again, thanks for the detailed timeline and map. I realize you had to fill in some blanks with conjecture (which you clearly identified), but the whole project was very, very helpful to me.)

I don't honestly know, but I do know there were many, many posts in this forum discussing the witness that said they saw one of these two in a white T shirt. I gotta think that the first thing I'm going to do when I finally get home is take that soaking wet, heavy hoodie off. Could be the T shirt was what was on under it, IDK. Pure conjecture on my part.

mikeysmommom
04-01-2012, 07:54 PM
Ok, So If TM first hit GZ then under the SYG law if he felt his life was in danger or anything he would be able to shoot him?

I'm confused

If TM started the physical confrontation and was trying to get GZ gun and GZ felt he would be killed then yes he would be able to shoot him.

katydid23
04-01-2012, 07:56 PM
Besides the fact that Trayvon was brutally murdered by Zimmerman, this is the next most concerning thing. Had it not been for Trayvon's wonderful parents, it would have been swept under the rug. It was already happening and praise the Lord that Sybrina and Tracy were not going to take no for an answer.



~jmo~

What about this scenario---What would you think if TM had made it back safely to his porch. And he hid there and waited until he saw GZ looking for him, then went out to confront him? What that still be a cold blooded murder case in your eyes?

TonyGatto
04-01-2012, 07:57 PM
Besides the fact that Trayvon was brutally murdered by Zimmerman, this is the next most concerning thing. Had it not been for Trayvon's wonderful parents, it would have been swept under the rug. It was already happening and praise the Lord that Sybrina and Tracy were not going to take no for an answer.



~jmo~

Saying that Trayvon was murdered does not help the cause. We are hopeful for a manslaughter indictment.

Nova
04-01-2012, 07:57 PM
I don't know for sure any of this, but I think there are two possible reasons he would walk back up to the point his body was found at.

(1) It may not have been voluntary on his part. There were statements made last week when the 911 calls were released, from the Martin's attorney about TWO gunshots being heard. One could have been a warning shot.

(2) I can't completely dismiss what I feel would likely have happened when I was that age. Rest assured, if some guy had chased and followed me like GZ did to Trayvon with no uniform, no badge, or anything else except a seemingly fanatical desire to find me? If he didn't have a gun that I could see?

We're gonna dance.

Well, it will be interesting to see TM's girlfriend's entire deposition. Because if TM made it home safely, I imagine he mentioned it while the two were holding their running conversation.

On the other hand, another explanation for the 2-minute gap between police call and gunshot is that TM ducked around the corner and then hid in the shadows, trying to elude the man (GZ) who was pursuing him. But if that happened, I'd expect the gf to report a period of time when TM was silent: I doubt he'd hide in the shadow yet continue to talk on the phone. (ETA perhaps this hiding ended when TM told the gf that he thought he had eluded GZ? Could TM have hidden long enough to allow GZ to go all the way around the block and come up the sidewalk from the other direction? That might explain the sudden "Why are you following me?/What are you doing here?" the gf purportedly heard: TM had come out of the shadows and was continuing his way home only to find himself face-to-face with GZ.)

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 07:58 PM
Saying that Trayvon was murdered does not help the cause. We are hopeful for a manslaughter indictment.

If this was not self defense, than I think Manslaughter would be the most he could get.

Isabelle
04-01-2012, 07:59 PM
Was Trayvon's phone found on his back porch??!!

Kimster
04-01-2012, 07:59 PM
We're about to go on the air at WEBSLEUTHS RADIO and will be discussing Trayvon's case!!! You can get there by following the link on my signature line! :grouphug:

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 08:00 PM
if TM made it home then where does the 70 yards come in?

IzzyBlanche
04-01-2012, 08:00 PM
On Monday afternoon, a FOX 35 News crew met with Tracy Martin who said the victim in the shooting is her 17-year-old son, Trayvon, who was visiting from Miami.

"He walked out of the house to go to the store. He was going to the store," she said. "He doesn't know anybody here. He just came down here, so he was bored, so he walked down to the store. He was on his way back home. I'm living down here. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1qpX1S895

Given the fact that whoever wrote this article doesn't seem to know that Tracy Martin is Trayvon's father, not mother, I don't tend to give it much credibility.

Wise Old Owl
04-01-2012, 08:01 PM
I don't honestly know, but I do know there were many, many posts in this forum discussing the witness that said they saw one of these two in a white T shirt. I gotta think that the first thing I'm going to do when I finally get home is take that soaking wet, heavy hoodie off. Could be the T shirt was what was on under it, IDK. Pure conjecture on my part.
But Trayvon was found in the hoodie.

I get what you're saying papa - but wouldn't the 13 yr old have heard the porch door? Why wouldn't Tray have put the skittels and iced tea down once in the porch - especially if he took off the hoodie?

I can't see him going back out that door WITH the skittles and can of iced tea.


IDK - thanks for all the diagrams - I"m with you about what happened including the time and space we're talking about - its just making it to the porch that I can't see,




JMHO

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 08:02 PM
Given the fact that whoever wrote this article doesn't seem to know that Tracy Martin is Trayvon's father, not mother, I don't tend to give it much credibility.

this was one of the first articles. and I think they meant the father and not the mother, they probably made a mistake since the name Tracy is more associated with females than with males.

uvamerica
04-01-2012, 08:02 PM
But it is being investigated. Yes? The fact that protests are continuing leads one to believe that the protesters don't want an investigation, they want GZ hung out to dry.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

The protesters don't matter one bit to me, I give them no weight. The investigation continues, I doubt very much the investigators wasting their time or are basing their conclusions on what goes on in these rallies. MOO

Isabelle
04-01-2012, 08:03 PM
If so, then you are building the perfect defense for GZ. If TM was home safely on his porch, and he then went out again solely to confront and 'dance' with GZ, then self defense will be warranted, imo.

Not if GZ came after TM while he was at his porch and TM tried to get away! Where is this TM on the porch story coming from?

Helplessly Hoping
04-01-2012, 08:04 PM
I think that could also be ' we see them according to WHERE we are.'

People who live in neighborhoods where the Crips have a heavy presence are much more likely to see TM as being suspicious than someone who does not.

Having worked in an inner city high school, where there was a lot of violence, I tend to understand why GZ was suspicious. But I do not think it is fair to infer that I am a racist, which some here are doing when they point out those who are defending GZ in any way.

I agree that where you live has an impact and I don't know if you are a racist or not. I am not going there. Of course we are a compilation of where we've been in our lives. I worked in a high school full of privileged rich white kids (some minority too) and my pleasure was working with the adjudicated youth population. I could tell some tales that would curl your hair. Really troubled kids~but it never made me scared of other kids I saw in my neighborhood. I guess I just don't think that way. JMO

RANCH
04-01-2012, 08:04 PM
Websleuths Radio in on now.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleuths/2012/04/02/websleuths-radio?ie8c=0

Concerned Papa
04-01-2012, 08:05 PM
If so, then you are building the perfect defense for GZ. If TM was home safely on his porch, and he then went out again solely to confront and 'dance' with GZ, then self defense will be warranted, imo.

I'm not building anything one way or the other. Just trying to figure this deal out like the rest of you are. I didn't know TM. I know nothing about his temperament, but I know mine very well. What ever happened would have happened long before it did with Trayvon.

I wasn't a skinny little 140-150 lb kid gonna take on an ex Rave bouncer. I was full grown at 17. Big difference between that and what I believe TM to be capable of. Particularly after seeing that blemish free video 35 minutes or so later?

Please, I don't care how many of his pals, buddies, and kin talk about diapers and such, I'll NEVER believe Trayvon Martin got the best of <modsnip> George to the point of his murder being justified.

I heard that boy screaming. Two experts convinced me of it last night.

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 08:05 PM
Not if GZ came after TM while he was at his porch and TM tried to get away! Where is this TM on the porch story coming from?

On Monday afternoon, a FOX 35 News crew met with Tracy Martin who said the victim in the shooting is her 17-year-old son, Trayvon, who was visiting from Miami.

"He walked out of the house to go to the store. He was going to the store," she said. "He doesn't know anybody here. He just came down here, so he was bored, so he walked down to the store. He was on his way back home. I'm living down here. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1qpX1S895

Beyond Belief
04-01-2012, 08:05 PM
Trayvon obviously wasn't carrying his drivers license since he had no i.d., but they did they mention if he had an apartment key?
And does this particular association require its residents to inform them if they have extended visitors? I worked with associations for 10 years and had the visitors drug in to meet me more times than i say and I informed the security so those people wouldn't be stopped for questioning.

i.b.nora
04-01-2012, 08:06 PM
As far as TM making it to his back porch, that's what makes the most sense to me with all the parameters of the timeline, both before and afterwards, that we know about at this point. Obviously the question becomes how did he get back up to the point his body was located at and arrive at almost the same time it calculates for GZ to reach the same point walking back up the sidewalk?

I think there are two different possibilities but I don't think he was shot on his porch. I think he was on the porch doing 2 things, one of which may have been taking off that soaking wet hoodie as he watched out for this goon running around looking for him.
Thanks for the new 'map'. I have a question, and a comment.

Do you know for a fact, that the Location #6 on your map is the exact townhouse that Trayvon and his father were staying at? Or are you guessing by his father saying he was 70 or 100 yards from home?

And, my comment is regarding that early Myfoxorlando article that you relied upon for your #6 porch : There are significant errors in that written article. For one it says they talked with Trayvon's mother, Tracy. The problem with that is that if they talked with a women, it would not be his mother, it might have been his father's girlfriend. If they talked with someone named Tracy, it would have been his father. Surely the reporter and news crew could tell the difference?
For two; the article says George Zimmerman is 25, however, I think he is older than that.
As for the porch comment, it makes no sense, imo.

w1df10wr
04-01-2012, 08:06 PM
:kimsterwink:http://www.blogtalkradio.com/websleuths/2012/04/02/websleuths-radio - Anyone else turned in to Websleuths Radio?

Adrienne37
04-01-2012, 08:07 PM
What about this scenario---What would you think if TM had made it back safely to his porch. And he hid there and waited until he saw GZ looking for him, then went out to confront him? What that still be a cold blooded murder case in your eyes?

There is no evidence that that particular scenario occurred but even it did happen, Trayvon had a right to STAND HIS GROUND as well. He was being hunted and stalked by this man so that gives him the right to protect himself.

I do not believe that he made it back to his porch. I believe if his mother referenced that he got killed in his own backyard as a generalized term, meaning he was close to his home when he was brutally murdered which he was.

ETA - so now I'm seeing that this bit about the back porch was in an article which labeled Tracy Martin as Trayvon's mother.

~jmo~

IzzyBlanche
04-01-2012, 08:07 PM
this was one of the first articles. and I think they meant the father and not the mother, they probably made a mistake since the name Tracy is more associated with females than with males.

But they quote him directly, so he had to be talking to someone. Couldn't they tell by his voice that he was male?

LambChop
04-01-2012, 08:08 PM
Well, it will be interesting to see TM's girlfriend's entire deposition. Because if TM made it home safely, I imagine he mentioned it while the two were holding their running conversation.

On the other hand, another explanation for the 2-minute gap between police call and gunshot is that TM ducked around the corner and then hid in the shadows, trying to elude the man (GZ) who was pursuing him. But if that happened, I'd expect the gf to report a period of time when TM was silent: I doubt he'd hide in the shadow yet continue to talk on the phone. (ETA perhaps this hiding ended when TM told the gf that he thought he had eluded GZ? Could TM have hidden long enough to allow GZ to go all the way around the block and come up the sidewalk from the other direction? That might explain the sudden "Why are you following me?/What are you doing here?" the gf purportedly heard: TM had come out of the shadows and was continuing his way home only to find himself face-to-face with GZ.)

From what I remember she said TM said he lost him and he was hiding (maybe on someone's porch) and then she said GZ found him and she heard the exchange. jmo

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 08:08 PM
Thanks for the new 'map'. I have a question, and a comment.

Do you know for a fact, that the Location #6 on your map is the exact townhouse that Trayvon and his father were staying at? Or are you guessing by his father saying he was 70 or 100 yards from home?

And, my comment is regarding that early Myfoxorlando article that you relied upon for your #6 porch : There are significant errors in that written article. For one it says they talked with Trayvon's mother, Tracy. The problem with that is that if they talked with a women, it would not be his mother, it might have been his father's girlfriend. If they talked with someone named Tracy, it would have been his father. Surely the reporter and news crew could tell the difference?
For two; the article says George Zimmerman is 25, however, I think he is older than that.
As for the porch comment, it makes no sense, imo.

I know

IzzyBlanche
04-01-2012, 08:09 PM
On Monday afternoon, a FOX 35 News crew met with Tracy Martin who said the victim in the shooting is her 17-year-old son, Trayvon, who was visiting from Miami.

"He walked out of the house to go to the store. He was going to the store," she said. "He doesn't know anybody here. He just came down here, so he was bored, so he walked down to the store. He was on his way back home. I'm living down here. He was sitting on the porch and this man killed him."

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1qpX1S895

So the crew MET with Tracy Martin and still reported that Tracy was the mother?

Again, I give this story no credibility.

Boytwnmom
04-01-2012, 08:10 PM
of the concern and focus by ordinary people to be their disbelief that this wasn't thoroughly investigated and that he wasn't arrested "for something". I think it just defied most people's common sense when they hear the story and see what it has taken to get a real investigation done. Many people are parents and I think most parents can easily empathize with the Martins and imagine what it would be like if their son was walking home from the store and ended up dead and the person who admits shooting him was sent back home with no charges shortly after the boy was killed.

None of this means GZ is guilty of anything. It is a reaction to the story and it isn't concerned with the SYG law intricacies and who did what precisely when. It's an emotional response to this story in it's simplest form. And you are right to be concerned for GZ's rights here as the story may not be as simple as it sounds. But people have strong feelings about many cases and our country has always been able to seat a jury. I see no reason why this case would be any different.



And where are they going to find this jury? Do you really believe that GZ can get a fair trail, presumed innocent until proven otherwise? He has already been tried and found guilty of a racial hate crime by a significant portion of Americans (and around the globe).

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 08:10 PM
But they quote him directly, so he had to be talking to someone. Couldn't they tell by his voice that he was male?

Don't Know

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 08:12 PM
So the crew MET with Tracy Martin and still reported that Tracy was the mother?

Again, I give this story no credibility.

whoever they were talking to weather it be Tracy Martin or Sybrina Fulton still said he was killed on his porch.

IzzyBlanche
04-01-2012, 08:12 PM
Don't Know

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to phrase that as if I was asking you personally. It was more of a rhetorical question.

m00c0w
04-01-2012, 08:13 PM
There is no evidence that that particular scenario occurred but even it did happen, Trayvon had a right to STAND HIS GROUND as well. He was being hunted and stalked by this man so that gives him the right to protect himself.

I do not believe that he made it back to his porch. I believe if his mother referenced that he got killed in his own backyard as a generalized term, meaning he was close to his home when he was brutally murdered which he was.

ETA - so now I'm seeing that this bit about the back porch was in an article which labeled Tracy Martin as Trayvon's mother.

~jmo~
Actually, that would not be standing his ground if Zimmerman walked by, Martin approached him from behind and proceeded to commit aggravated battery. That would squarely make Martin the aggressor, rendering him completely liable for his actions. Just like if Zimmerman were to come up from behind Martin and grab him and proceed to kill Martin, Zimmerman would not be protected.

JMO

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 08:14 PM
If he was killed on his porch then where does the 70 yards come from?

mercuriod
04-01-2012, 08:14 PM
And TM had every means to run back to his house if he choose too.

I think he could have made a dash home much sooner,
he was 6'3" That is LONG LEGS he could have lost GZ long ago.

:moo::moo::moo:


Please someone tell me I have lost my ever-lovin mind, am I seriously reading that it is Trayvon's fault that he was murdered because he didn't run from a bullet fast enough? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Beyond Belief
04-01-2012, 08:15 PM
Where was the crime scene tape put up, oh don't tell me, they didn't do that.

Dr.Fessel
04-01-2012, 08:15 PM
I just have a real problem if he made it back home not getting the 13 yr old involved in it or at least telling him. Going off the thought, what if the brother wasn't home and had locked up the house locking Trayvon out without realizing it?

Adrienne37
04-01-2012, 08:16 PM
Saying that Trayvon was murdered does not help the cause. We are hopeful for a manslaughter indictment.

I'm sorry but it is my opinion that Trayvon was brutally murdered. I believe I indicated a JMO at the end of my post. Helping a cause? This is a message board. I do not think posting on a forum is going to help any cause. Additionally, I believe that premeditation was formed when Zimmerman stepped out of his vehicle with a loaded gun and proceeded to hunt Trayvon down like an animal. He was an unharmed kid innocently walking home who was stalked and gunned down. Would it have mattered if Trayvon was 3, 4, 6, 7, 10?

~jmo~

IzzyBlanche
04-01-2012, 08:17 PM
whoever they were talking to weather it be Tracy Martin or Sybrina Fulton still said he was killed on his porch.

If one chooses to believe that story, and the quotes in it, are accurate.

I don't, given the blatant inaccuracy of Tracy being reported as Trayvon's mom.

katydid23
04-01-2012, 08:17 PM
I agree that where you live has an impact and I don't know if you are a racist or not. I am not going there. Of course we are a compilation of where we've been in our lives. I worked in a high school full of privileged rich white kids (some minority too) and my pleasure was working with the adjudicated youth population. I could tell some tales that would curl your hair. Really troubled kids~but it never made me scared of other kids I saw in my neighborhood. I guess I just don't think that way. JMO

I am not talking about being 'scared' of kids in my neighborhood. I am talking about recognizing the real dangers ever present with the urban experience.

Driving to and from and working in the hardcore center of South Central is no joke. And some of the local dropouts, who lurk the area are not fooling around. If you are not afraid of them then you are foolish, imo.

m00c0w
04-01-2012, 08:17 PM
Are people really calling this a brutal racist cold blooded killing? I mean anyone of note? Of course there are wackos on either side -- but who is calling him a cold-blooded killer? And GZ does not have to be a racist to be a racial profiler. What the family is saying is they want justice, they want an investigation, an arrest -- let a jury decide.
I'm gonna bump this comment up...

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 08:18 PM
Where was the crime scene tape put up, oh don't tell me, they didn't do that.

They did have crime scene tape put up because my local news did a piece about the protests going on in my area and one of the pictures they showed was the area with crime scene tape around it.

katydid23
04-01-2012, 08:19 PM
Going off the thought, what if the brother wasn't home and had locked up the house locking Trayvon out without realizing it?

But they were watching the basketball game and he was waiting for his skittles, right? Or is that faulty or manufactured ?

angeleleven
04-01-2012, 08:19 PM
I think Trayvon's parents are going to be on Geraldos show on Fox at 10 EST. I know the show is going to be about the case and I thought I heard the parents would be on. (if anyone is interested).

TonyGatto
04-01-2012, 08:20 PM
All this talk about TM being killed on the front porch. Clearly this is an inaccurate statement, unless you believe the body was moved dozens of yards. So can we please leave this poor family alone on this point and just chalk it up to a distraught parent who had just lost their son and perhaps didn't parse their words as if they were under oath.

Dr.Fessel
04-01-2012, 08:20 PM
The two women did say it started several doors down.

mikeysmommom
04-01-2012, 08:20 PM
whoever they were talking to weather it be Tracy Martin or Sybrina Fulton still said he was killed on his porch.

Can not be right if Tm was killed on his porch then the dad would have known as soon as he came home.

suzihawk
04-01-2012, 08:20 PM
But it is being investigated. Yes? The fact that protests are continuing leads one to believe that the protesters don't want an investigation, they want GZ hung out to dry.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

It's being investigated - NOW. I think what makes people angry is how it was dismissed so quickly to begin with. It very easily could have been swept under the rug if not for Trayvon's parents demanding answers. And more power to them for keeping that wheel squeaking. MOO

LambChop
04-01-2012, 08:21 PM
whoever they were talking to weather it be Tracy Martin or Sybrina Fulton still said he was killed on his porch.

It was reported he said "the" porch. In his latest interview Mr. Martin said TM was 70 yards from home. So it wasn't their porch. GF said TM thought he lost the man. It's possible he was hiding on a porch. jmo

Wise Old Owl
04-01-2012, 08:22 PM
I'm not building anything one way or the other. Just trying to figure this deal out like the rest of you are. I didn't know TM. I know nothing about his temperament, but I know mine very well. What ever happened would have happened long before it did with Trayvon.

I wasn't a skinny little 140-150 lb kid gonna take on an ex Rave bouncer. I was full grown at 17. Big difference between that and what I believe TM to be capable of. Particularly after seeing that blemish free video 35 minutes or so later?

Please, I don't care how many of his pals, buddies, and kin talk about diapers and such, I'll NEVER believe Trayvon Martin got the best of Captain George to the point of his murder being justified.

I heard that boy screaming. Two experts convinced me of it last night.
ITA

But I think Tray "took off running" or walking fast like the gf said, just to get around the that corner (90 degree turn on the sidewalk) and get out of GZ's sight. Once around that corner I think he went back to walking - maybe he dropped the skittles at one point and had to stop to pick them up? I just don't think he kept running. He told the gf he wasn't going to run - so he ran just far enough to get out of his sight and then went back to walking.

But that's JMHO

vlpate
04-01-2012, 08:23 PM
Here is what I think MIGHT have happened. Our house sits on a little hill right above the community pool. And there have been some break-ins there at the pool, and some costly vandalism. Also, some people sneak in after the pool is closed to party and midnight-swim. Since my own kids used to do that in high school [ I think so anyway] I do not usually report this even though my German Shepherd alerts me to any strange occurrences there.

But when I have seen people lurking, dressed in hoodies and in dark clothing, and standing in the shadows, then YES, I call the non-emergency number.

GZ first reported that TM was under the awning at the community center. That is a likely spot for a burglary or a break-in. So GZ probably thought he had a potential burglar and so he was going to cling on to this kid, hell or high water.

He was wrong and made terrible decisions. But I do not believe he set out to murder anybody, imo. I think this was the perfect storm of horrible circumstances. Especially weird if TM was already safely on his back porch,and then went to confront GZ, imo.

How did you describe the suspicious characters?

I've only heard that he was under the awning as a rumor, it wasn't in the 911 call - is this information from someone he's spoken to? TIA

Elley Mae
04-01-2012, 08:24 PM
I went back and looked at GZ's shirt and jacket in the video at police station, I could not see any thing wrong with his clothes in reference to gunpowder residue.

Isabelle
04-01-2012, 08:25 PM
As far as TM making it to his back porch, that's what makes the most sense to me with all the parameters of the timeline, both before and afterwards, that we know about at this point. Obviously the question becomes how did he get back up to the point his body was located at and arrive at almost the same time it calculates for GZ to reach the same point walking back up the sidewalk?

I think there are two different possibilities but I don't think he was shot on his porch. I think he was on the porch doing 2 things, one of which may have been taking off that soaking wet hoodie as he watched out for this goon running around looking for him.

Papa, are there any pics of these 'back porches'. From condos that I have seen, it isn't much more than a back door and maybe a small concrete landing on the ground. ETA: not the back porches I know in the south.

TonyGatto
04-01-2012, 08:25 PM
I'm sorry but it is my opinion that Trayvon was brutally murdered. I believe I indicated a JMO at the end of my post. Helping a cause? This is a message board. I do not think posting on a forum is going to help any cause. Additionally, I believe that premeditation was formed when Zimmerman stepped out of his vehicle with a loaded gun and proceeded to hunt Trayvon down like an animal. He was an unharmed kid innocently walking home who was stalked and gunned down. Would it have mattered if Trayvon was 3, 4, 6, 7, 10?

~jmo~

Why not just blow him away as soon as he saw him at the clubhouse? Why wait til he got closer to the homes and get into a struggle before killing him? I understand it's just your opinion, but I would think you would want to form an opinion that is based on the facts.

m00c0w
04-01-2012, 08:26 PM
I went back and looked at GZ's shirt and jacket in the video at police station, I could not see any thing wrong with his clothes in reference to gunpowder residue.
What makes you think you'd see gunpowder residue on his clothing?

Concerned Papa
04-01-2012, 08:26 PM
Thanks for the new 'map'. I have a question, and a comment.

Do you know for a fact, that the Location #6 on your map is the exact townhouse that Trayvon and his father were staying at? Or are you guessing by his father saying he was 70 or 100 yards from home?

And, my comment is regarding that early Myfoxorlando article that you relied upon for your #6 porch : There are significant errors in that written article. For one it says they talked with Trayvon's mother, Tracy. The problem with that is that if they talked with a women, it would not be his mother, it might have been his father's girlfriend. If they talked with someone named Tracy, it would have been his father. Surely the reporter and news crew could tell the difference?
For two; the article says George Zimmerman is 25, however, I think he is older than that.
As for the porch comment, it makes no sense, imo.

I believe if you will go back to my post, you will note that my reference to his mother's comment about the porch was simply that I can't get it completely out of my mind. What I RELIED on for this consideration was primarily the observation that of the 884 feet journey of his across this development, every step was straight as a shot towards the shortest way home. No where did he deviate or detour. The timing of his known landmarks clearly establish that observation. I relied for what I clearly indicated as conjecture on my part on an established pattern of movement that I saw no reason to think would not continue.

As for am I guessing about the location of his residence? LOL, if that's what you need to call it, feel free but there's just a touch more to it than that.

Tracy Martin stood on the sidewalk at the spot his son's body was located and said Trayvon's back door was 70 yds, or 210 feet down the sidewalk. Google Earth has a measurement app that calculates distance in feet, inches, miles, or centimeters. Since I have a picture from the video very clearly showing where Mr. Martin was standing when he said that, I pushed a couple of buttons and let GE do the rest.

Helplessly Hoping
04-01-2012, 08:26 PM
I am not talking about being 'scared' of kids in my neighborhood. I am talking about recognizing the real dangers ever present with the urban experience.

Driving to and from and working in the hardcore center of South Central is no joke. And some of the local dropouts, who lurk the area are not fooling around. If you are not afraid of them then you are foolish, imo.


I haven't had your experience so I can't speak to how I would feel but if calling me foolish makes you feel you are making a point. :what: Have at it. Count me out though.

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 08:27 PM
If he was not killed on his father's porch, then who's porch was he killed on?

And where does the 70 yards come from? TM's father said that he was found 100 yards from his house.

ThoughtFox
04-01-2012, 08:29 PM
I'll tell you what - if my child was being pursued by some strange unknown guy in a van who was yelling for him to stop, I would expect him to run away.

If Trayvon had not died tragically, this would sound like every other child molester or kidnapping attempt which we read about every day here on Websleuths. That's why this case sounds upside down to many of us.

The main thing all children in the U.S. are taught from nursery school to high school is to shout at an abductor and run to a porch if they can.

Just because someone is yelling for them to stop doesn't mean that Trayvon should have stopped.

It remains to be seen whether Zimmerman had any injuries from the tussle with Trayvon. But I stand by the those 911 tapes we heard when this story came out. Zimmerman was pursuing a young man without knowing anything about him, and jumping to all sorts of conclusions based on appearances only. He chose not to listen advice from the dispatcher. He chose not to wait for police.

Zimmerman made his own decisions and now he has to live with that, come what may. JMOO :cow:

Isabelle
04-01-2012, 08:30 PM
If TM was killed on the porch, how did he get in the grass? Could he have lived long enough to move himself there? What of the reports of 2 people fighting on the ground?

Could it be that the back yards are referred to as 'the porch"?

w1df10wr
04-01-2012, 08:30 PM
If he was killed on his porch then where does the 70 yards come from?

Here is a comment from witness's mom & complex resident, Cheryl Brown - http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article1221799.ece
~Brown stopped and pointed to a patch of shade beneath a scrawny maple tree. "This is where Trayvon was killed," she said. "He was almost home."~

&

~ďIf Trayvon has made it that far, and Zimmerman is getting out of his truck, why doesnít Trayvon keep walking?Ē Lee said. ďHeís 70 yards from his house. I think based on the timing of the call and Zimmerman losing sight of him, that he had made it to that ĎTí [at the end of the path] and was starting to walk towards his house.~

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/31/2725442_p4/what-is-known-what-isnt-about.html#storylink=cpy - ~there are 4 pages total~

~Here is another tidbit from the same page-
THE INVESTIGATION

The investigation began, with detectives interrogating Zimmerman and patrol officers canvassing the 911 callers.

One caller said he had seen a man with a white T-shirt on top of the other. Neither Zimmerman nor Trayvon wore white T-shirts.~

LambChop
04-01-2012, 08:31 PM
All this talk about TM being killed on the front porch. Clearly this is an inaccurate statement, unless you believe the body was moved dozens of yards. So can we please leave this poor family alone on this point and just chalk it up to a distraught parent who had just lost their son and perhaps didn't parse their words as if they were under oath.

Since the Chief filled the family in on some of the details the family could know details from the statement we don't. Mr. Martin is reported as saying "the porch" and in a recent interview he said TM was 70 yards from home. Is it possible TM was hiding on someone else's porch when GZ found him and asked what are you doing here??? Is it possible GZ knew who lived in that home and thought TM was trying to break in and went after him when TM tried to run away. The fight could have started a couple of houses down with GZ trying to apprehend TM for LE and they ended up on the ground.

It seems strange for Mr. Martin to say the porch and the gf to say he thought he lost him. I sure would like to know where they found the phone. jmo

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 08:31 PM
I'll tell you what - if my child was being pursued by some strange unknown guy in a van who was yelling for him to stop, I would expect him to run away.

If Trayvon had not died tragically, this would sound like every other child molester or kidnapping attempt which we read about every day here on Websleuths. That's why this case sounds upside down to many of us.

The main thing all children in the U.S. are taught from nursery school to high school is to shout at an abductor and run to a porch if they can.

Just because someone is yelling for them to stop doesn't mean that Trayvon should have stopped.

It remains to be seen whether Zimmerman had any injuries from the tussle with Trayvon. But I stand by the those 911 tapes we heard when this story came out. Zimmerman was pursuing a young man without knowing anything about him, and jumping to all sorts of conclusions based on appearances only. He chose not to listen advice from the dispatcher. He chose not to wait for police.

Zimmerman made his own decisions and now he has to live with that, come what may. JMOO :cow:

GZ was in his truck and where are you getting the idea that GZ was telling TM to stop?

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 08:33 PM
I thought Mr. Martin said they found his son at 100 yards and not 70 yards?

Adrienne37
04-01-2012, 08:33 PM
Why not just blow him away as soon as he saw him at the clubhouse? Why wait til he got closer to the homes and get into a struggle before killing him? I understand it's just your opinion, but I would think you would want to form an opinion that is based on the facts.

It's irrelevant at this point because no charges have been filed against Zimmerman nor is it up to me or you to decide that anyway, that's the job of the state's attorney and had they done what they were supposed to have done from the beginning, no one would be pushing for any cause. I could care less what he is charged with, murder or manslaughter. I just want him to pay for what he did to an innocent child. I will always maintain that stalking a kid walking down the sidewalk minding his own business with a bag of Skittles and a can or bottle of iced team and then deciding to shoot to kill them is brutally murdering them.


~jmo~

mikeysmommom
04-01-2012, 08:34 PM
It's being investigated - NOW. I think what makes people angry is how it was dismissed so quickly to begin with. It very easily could have been swept under the rug if not for Trayvon's parents demanding answers. And more power to them for keeping that wheel squeaking. MOO

How do we know it was not still being investigated and was swept under the rug?IMO Under the law GZ could not be arrested because he said he feared for his life and it was self defense.Just because they did not arrest him does not mean the investigation stopped.In many cases here I have seen weeks,months go by when it seemed a slam dunk case,sometimes it does take time.Is it possible Le was waiting for forensics to come back from clothing to determine what happened?Even now the parents want the DA investigated,since higher ups have taken this over I would think everyone who was part of Le decision to not arrest GZ is being questioned as to why and how they all came to that decision. I had a loved one murdered of course families want answers right away but unlike CSI TV shows answers can take months if not years.JMO

Elley Mae
04-01-2012, 08:34 PM
What makes you think you'd see gunpowder residue on his clothing?

I am trying to figure out in my mind if the struggle was on the ground at the time of the shot or if they ended up on their feet with them separated.

IzzyBlanche
04-01-2012, 08:36 PM
If he was not killed on his father's porch, then who's porch was he killed on?

And where does the 70 yards come from? TM's father said that he was found 100 yards from his house.

He was not killed on anyone's porch. There is no evidence of that at all, according to the 911 callers and the two women who saw GZ and whom he told to call the police immediately after the shot.

That's another reason I think that article is just bad, inaccurate reporting.

Boytwnmom
04-01-2012, 08:37 PM
he was going to commit a burglary or that he HAD committed a burglary? I'm trying to understand why GZ was so distressed when he said Trayvon was starting to run, something like "SH$%, he's running". Thinking about it I'm trying to imagine what it was he was thinking that seemed to make him act so as to not let TM get away. TM obviously, to me, hadn't committed a burglary (the thefts I read about in the neighborhood were of computers and game systems) as he wasn't carrying anything of any size and so what was he thinking would happen when he was prevented from getting away? It kind of doesn't make sense to me-what had he determined that made him go after this person when he usually seemed to only call and wait for LE.

I wonder if his new gun made the difference (I don't think we know how long he's had it) or did he think TM was one of the burglars he had seen before (doesn't seem likely as he would have mentioned it I think). I also wonder if he was under the influence of something, which I guess we'll never know as I don't believe testing was done.

I'm just trying to imagine what made this 911 call and response different form what he usually did. One friend, Frank said he was "fed up" was that it? What did GZ ever think he was going to do once TM started running? TM would obviously not then stop to commit a crime and GZ had no right to detain him so what was the point? It seems the more I think about what GZ did the less sense it makes....

Here is what I think MIGHT have happened. Our house sits on a little hill right above the community pool. And there have been some break-ins there at the pool, and some costly vandalism. Also, some people sneak in after the pool is closed to party and midnight-swim. Since my own kids used to do that in high school [ I think so anyway] I do not usually report this even though my German Shepherd alerts me to any strange occurrences there.

But when I have seen people lurking, dressed in hoodies and in dark clothing, and standing in the shadows, then YES, I call the non-emergency number.

GZ first reported that TM was under the awning at the community center. That is a likely spot for a burglary or a break-in. So GZ probably thought he had a potential burglar and so he was going to cling on to this kid, hell or high water.

He was wrong and made terrible decisions. But I do not believe he set out to murder anybody, imo. I think this was the perfect storm of horrible circumstances. Especially weird if TM was already safely on his back porch,and then went to confront GZ, imo.

mercuriod
04-01-2012, 08:37 PM
I went back and looked at GZ's shirt and jacket in the video at police station, I could not see any thing wrong with his clothes in reference to gunpowder residue.

I don't think you can see gunpowder residue with the naked eye, especially not from a grainy video.

Concerned Papa
04-01-2012, 08:38 PM
ITA

But I think Tray "took off running" or walking fast like the gf said, just to get around the that corner (90 degree turn on the sidewalk) and get out of GZ's sight. Once around that corner I think he went back to walking - maybe he dropped the skittles at one point and had to stop to pick them up? I just don't think he kept running. He told the gf he wasn't going to run - so he ran just far enough to get out of his sight and then went back to walking.

But that's JMHO

I thought about that, Owl, but the timing didn't seem to work. I can show you my calculations, but <modsnip> George was outta his truck giving chase roughly 30 seconds after TM took off running. If TM had been walking along, I tend to think that the confrontation would have happened fairly quickly at that point as opposed to when it did.

I knew this back porch deal was gonna stir the pot somewhat, but it's one of the only ways I can see of TM having somewhat of a "safe haven" for even the shortest of time. There was no where to hide down that long expanse of sidewalk other than a couple of bushes.

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 08:39 PM
He was not killed on anyone's porch. There is no evidence of that at all, according to the 911 callers and the two women who saw GZ and whom he told to call the police immediately after the shot.

That's another reason I think that article is just bad, inaccurate reporting.

Then why did TM's father say the porch, if he was not actually killed on a porch?

Elley Mae
04-01-2012, 08:42 PM
Then why did TM's father say the porch, if he was not actually killed on a porch?

sensationalism? he was so close to being home?

Ironhorse
04-01-2012, 08:44 PM
TonyGatto, If Zimmerman heeded the dispatcher's suggestion not to follow TM, how would you explain how and why he ended up behind the homes where he shot TM?

No one but the DA, Police & Zimmerman know of the location where he was when he was given that advice...

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 08:45 PM
If you watch the video Brandy Green says " He don't know nobody here, He just came out here, he was bored, So he walked to the store, he was on his way back home, I'm living down here, he was sitting out on the porch and this man he killed him. Are you Serious?"

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

IzzyBlanche
04-01-2012, 08:45 PM
Then why did TM's father say the porch, if he was not actually killed on a porch?

1. I don't believe he said that at all, despite what the article says.

2. However, even if he did say that, the statement is directly contradicted by the location of where the two were according to the 911 callers and by the fact that Trayvon's body was not found on a porch.

Elley Mae
04-01-2012, 08:47 PM
If you watch the video Brandy Green says " He don't know nobody here, He just came out here, he was bored, So he walked to the store, he was on his way back home, I'm living down here, he was sitting out on the porch and this man he killed him. Are you Serious?"

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

If I didn't know any better I'd think it was a drive by shooting they were talking about

Yoda
04-01-2012, 08:48 PM
http://www.the33tv.com/news/wpix-tryvon-foster-fact-or-fiction,0,7571524.story

This article claims an eye witness TOLD A REPORTER that GZ was yelling for help and ne told him that he had called 911.

Question : is it true that TM was with his younger brother AGE 13...buying skittles for him? Weren't they just watching TV together and planned to do so again? If the house was so close, was the brother a witness? Had he left the home and not waited for his brother? Did he also return late enough to see nothing?
Did he tell anyone that his brother went to the store and never came back? TM knew no one there in that area...so where has the family said they thought he was all night?

I have not read anything on this.

I haven't seen anything that answers these questions. Did I miss a page?
Did anyone read if his brother saw or heard anything? He was very close!! Did he not wonder why TM hadn't come back with his candy? Did he tell his mom and soon to be step dad that TM didn't return? Tia

m00c0w
04-01-2012, 08:50 PM
I am trying to figure out in my mind if the struggle was on the ground at the time of the shot or if they ended up on their feet with them separated.

No, I just mean in general. I've fired hundreds of rounds of ammo at a time and you'd never have been able to tell with your naked eyes.

Etilema
04-01-2012, 08:52 PM
Here is what I think MIGHT have happened. Our house sits on a little hill right above the community pool. And there have been some break-ins there at the pool, and some costly vandalism. Also, some people sneak in after the pool is closed to party and midnight-swim. Since my own kids used to do that in high school [ I think so anyway] I do not usually report this even though my German Shepherd alerts me to any strange occurrences there.

But when I have seen people lurking, dressed in hoodies and in dark clothing, and standing in the shadows, then YES, I call the non-emergency number.

GZ first reported that TM was under the awning at the community center. That is a likely spot for a burglary or a break-in. So GZ probably thought he had a potential burglar and so he was going to cling on to this kid, hell or high water.

He was wrong and made terrible decisions. But I do not believe he set out to murder anybody, imo. I think this was the perfect storm of horrible circumstances. Especially weird if TM was already safely on his back porch,and then went to confront GZ, imo.

That is an excellent point about the clubhouse. It never occurred to me that GZ might consider TM was going to break in there.

mikeysmommom
04-01-2012, 08:53 PM
If you watch the video Brandy Green says " He don't know nobody here, He just came out here, he was bored, So he walked to the store, he was on his way back home, I'm living down here, he was sitting out on the porch and this man he killed him. Are you Serious?"

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

I just watched the video,Brandy Green who I assume is the GF of Tracey said he was killed on his porch.

ETA Reporter talked to John a witness who again said man in Red on bottom yelled at him to help,John said he yelled for them to stop went in called 911 heard shot looked out guy who was on top now he was dead on the grass.

Boytwnmom
04-01-2012, 08:53 PM
the Governor appointed a special prosecutor and the DOJ is investigating. There are reports that one of the officers wanted to arrest and charge him but he was overruled and that the SA drove to the scene over quite a distance late at night which was highly unusual. The town has a history of racial problems. The police chief spoke as though he was a defense attorney for GZ which is very unusual and inappropriate if, as you say, the investigation was on going and they just needed more time. I really don't think arguing that the Sanford police dept had been doing a bang up job on this case is a winning one.



How do we know it was not still being investigated and was swept under the rug?IMO Under the law GZ could not be arrested because he said he feared for his life and it was self defense.Just because they did not arrest him does not mean the investigation stopped.In many cases here I have seen weeks,months go by when it seemed a slam dunk case,sometimes it does take time.Is it possible Le was waiting for forensics to come back from clothing to determine what happened?Even now the parents want the DA investigated,since higher ups have taken this over I would think everyone who was part of Le decision to not arrest GZ is being questioned as to why and how they all came to that decision. I had a loved one murdered of course families want answers right away but unlike CSI TV shows answers can take months if not years.JMO

Nova
04-01-2012, 08:54 PM
If so, then you are building the perfect defense for GZ. If TM was home safely on his porch, and he then went out again solely to confront and 'dance' with GZ, then self defense will be warranted, imo.

But assuming your hypothetical is true, how was TM any different than GZ, who was safely in his truck and then went out again solely to confront TM? Well, there's one difference: GZ had a gun.

It seems to me (IANAL) that it could be legally possible for two parties to both be "standing their ground" at the same time under Florida law. Would Florida then deem the result an "accidental homicide"?

iluvmua
04-01-2012, 08:56 PM
I just watched the video,Brandy Green who I assume is the GF of Tracey said he was killed on his porch.

which, IMO TM made it all the way home and then possibly came back out to confront GZ about what his problem was.

mikeysmommom
04-01-2012, 08:58 PM
I haven't seen anything that answers these questions. Did I miss a page?
Did anyone read if his brother saw or heard anything? He was very close!! Did he not wonder why TM hadn't come back with his candy? Did he tell his mom and soon to be step dad that TM didn't return? Tia

It is very odd IMO that the 13 yr old heard nothing and also how no one worried after TM went to get candy and a drink and never came home.