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View Full Version : 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #17


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suzihawk
04-05-2012, 01:52 AM
Anyone watch Hannity tonight? GZ's father and both his lawyers were on. It may repeat later for those on the west coast.

Shoot, I missed it. Was GZ's father is shadow?

uvamerica
04-05-2012, 01:53 AM
Would report prove who inflicted harm? Just sayin'......

No, I was talking about whether GZ has a broken nose or not.

rotterdam
04-05-2012, 01:54 AM
I am Just repeating what i heard.He said without a slur there would only be state charges.......Sorry no link as i just watched it on AC360.. JMHO IMHO and all that

Yep. I heard the same thing too.But I take defense lawyers statements with a grain of salt. The Feds are already involved and their M.O. is generally to let the State do their dog and pony show first and if they do not like the outcome, they step in with their sizable justice machine.

vlpate
04-05-2012, 01:56 AM
TM was shot at 7:16 and 44 seconds according to the recording of the 911 call that had both the screaming and the gunshot on it. The first police officers arrived on the scene at 7:17 according to their reports and pretty quickly began CPR. A third officer arrived on the scene and continued CPR.

The arrival time of the EMTs is unknown, but TM was pronounced at 7:30. After that is when they must have had time to deal with GZ in the back of the police car.

There may have been other EMT working on GZ? There was an ambulance and the SFD - not sure how it works, but I've had asthma attacks - fire gets there first, they hook me up and then the ambulance people take over. Just a thought.

rotterdam
04-05-2012, 01:57 AM
Anyone watch Hannity tonight? GZ's father and both his lawyers were on. It may repeat later for those on the west coast.

Sorry never watch Fox. Bad for my blood pressure. Is GZ's father depicted like Alfred Hitchcock again?.

TonyGatto
04-05-2012, 01:59 AM
Piers Morgan did an awful job. He was not up on his facts, not realizing that it's NOT against the law for GZ to have had a gun as captain of the NW. He started out by saying the "vast majority of Americans" think GZ should be arrested. Fell into the trap of saying cops told him to "stop" following TM. I like Piers -- but he just did not have his facts and it showed. As I posted during the broadcast -- he could take a lesson or two from Lawrence O'Donnell.

Helplessly Hoping
04-05-2012, 01:59 AM
No, I was talking about whether GZ has a broken nose or not.

More I think about it--does it really matter if he did have a broken nose or cuts/lacerations? So there was an altercation....they happen all the time. Big deal. Never participated in but have seen a few fistfights. Cops were on the way. No way Trayvon could outmuscle a gun though. JMVHO

TonyGatto
04-05-2012, 02:00 AM
Sorry never watch Fox. Bad for my blood pressure. Is GZ's father depicted like Alfred Hitchcock again?.

Hahahahahahah! GOOOOD EVENING.

frenchvixen
04-05-2012, 02:00 AM
TM was shot at 7:16 and 44 seconds according to the recording of the 911 call that had both the screaming and the gunshot on it. The first police officers arrived on the scene at 7:17 according to their reports and pretty quickly began CPR. A third officer arrived on the scene and continued CPR.

The arrival time of the EMTs is unknown, but TM was pronounced at 7:30. After that is when they must have had time to deal with GZ in the back of the police car.

I think the fact that the time of the gunshot is on record is very important. There are people that are defending GZ so staunchly .. that they have gone so far as to imply tht the SYG laws only apply to GZ. So, as TM's attorney bought up this evening on Piers.. The phone records show that TM was on the phone with his girlfriend and the call ended at 7:12p. If TM is shot at 7:16p please explain to me how all of this took place that GZ's team is referring to?

vlpate
04-05-2012, 02:02 AM
OMG, that's funny. The real watchmen are coming to get him. I just thought about the attorneys on Piers tonight stating that it's not even a fat that TM went to the store.. and that maybe he was just walking around. Piers responded how would you know it's a fact Trayvon is dead so he can't state the facts. I can't believe that they are attacking something that has been documented. I'm sure there are cameras at the 711 but no one has really disputed this fact. But, his attorneys would rather dispute that instead of explain wht was GZ doing following TM?

I thought the attorneys did a good job explaining what was and what was not illegal to Piers, he thought if he asked the question differently 3 or 4 times, he might get a different answer, lol.

vlpate
04-05-2012, 02:06 AM
I think the fact that the time of the gunshot is on record is very important. There are people that are defending GZ so staunchly .. that they have gone so far as to imply tht the SYG laws only apply to GZ. So, as TM's attorney bought up this evening on Piers.. The phone records show that TM was on the phone with his girlfriend and the call ended at 7:12p. If TM is shot at 7:16p please explain to me how all of this took place that GZ's team is referring to?

The call with his girlfriend initiated at 7:12 and ended when Trayvon confronted GZ - according to the girlfriend and Crump.

crocus
04-05-2012, 02:07 AM
Sorry never watch Fox. Bad for my blood pressure. Is GZ's father depicted like Alfred Hitchcock again?.

How about MSNBC? CNN? NBC? ABC? lol lol

legalmania
04-05-2012, 02:08 AM
I only found two statutes that mentioned polygraphs so far. One said they cannot be funded by the state and this is the second, that seems to be for sex offenders or probation. There may be more, feel free to look. BBM

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=polygraph&URL=0900-0999/0948/Sections/0948.30.html

(a) As part of a treatment program, participation at least annually in polygraph examinations to obtain information necessary for risk management and treatment and to reduce the sex offender’s denial mechanisms. A polygraph examination must be conducted by a polygrapher who is a member of a national or state polygraph association and who is certified as a postconviction sex offender polygrapher, where available, and shall be paid for by the probationer or community controllee. The results of the polygraph examination shall be provided to the probationer’s or community controllee’s probation officer and qualified practitioner and shall not be used as evidence in court to prove that a violation of community supervision has occurred.

TonyGatto
04-05-2012, 02:08 AM
I think the fact that the time of the gunshot is on record is very important. There are people that are defending GZ so staunchly .. that they have gone so far as to imply tht the SYG laws only apply to GZ. So, as TM's attorney bought up this evening on Piers.. The phone records show that TM was on the phone with his girlfriend and the call ended at 7:12p. If TM is shot at 7:16p please explain to me how all of this took place that GZ's team is referring to?

NO! The call BEGAN at 7:12 and ended at 7:16. If the shot rang out at 7:16:44 that is totally consistent with the GF's story. And if the phone logs show the call ending at 7:16 -- that means it could have ended anywhere from 7:16:00 to 7:16:59. We're talking a matter of seconds. I THINK WE JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT HERE!!!

Helplessly Hoping
04-05-2012, 02:10 AM
<modsnip>

Was just providing a link so I don't know but here's a wiki link with more info. HTH

Voice stress analysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

vlpate
04-05-2012, 02:10 AM
EMS is run by Seminole County EMS/Fire/Rescue so they may have had and engine first respond as well as an ambulance. They have 17 ALS ambulances for the county and they operate under a "First Response Mutual Aid system" meaning that they can send resources from other jurisdictions if they are closest to the call. Typically, the fire engines may have medical trained personnel on them but the treatment and transporting is done by the ambulance. There may have been more personnel on the scene than we know.

Thank you - your professional input is very insightful and clears a lot up!

rotterdam
04-05-2012, 02:11 AM
How about MSNBC? CNN? NBC? ABC? lol lol

They are ok. CBS too. My favorite is PBS though.

frenchvixen
04-05-2012, 02:12 AM
From the link above

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-george-zimmerman-lawyer-sonner-20120403,0,2775283,full.story




Question: How can he claim this defense when HE was the one to pursue and confront Trayvon?

If he was in fear of Trayvon all he had to do was stay in his vehicle and let the LE, who he himself had called, do their job.

If you are in fear of someone you don't chase them, start an argument which leads to a fight which you know you can win because you have a gun, and FINALLY can stop those ******** from getting away....

Oh, wait.....

IMO

I can't understand how he can use that defense. GM's actions don't show that he "reasonably feared" for his safety. If a person fears for their safety they do not purposely put themselves in harms way. That is not reasonable. It's interesting that it states that he "reasonably feared" meaning if he even thought out of paranoia that TM was packing he can shoot him. So, even if TM is not packing but GZ THINKS that he is than he can defend himself. But, why would you put yourself in harm's way and then claim self defense?

ecs5298
04-05-2012, 02:13 AM
Thank you - your professional input is very insightful and clears a lot up!

I deleted that post since it was too far gone to correct. Sanford Fire runs 3 of it's own ALS units inside the city of Sanford. I'm sure they mutual aid with Seminole County EMS but it's unknown if SFD also responds an engine on medicals since it is a small department.

Cher352
04-05-2012, 02:13 AM
Shoot, I missed it. Was GZ's father is shadow?

Do you mean in silhouette? If so yes, because of death threats the family has been receiving. He gave a little more detail on the path that GZ took and they discussed the one witness that actually was out there when the fighting occurred. Said all GZ's family and friends believe that was GZ's voice on the tape yelling for help. Of course his lawyers say that once all the evidence is out it will show GZ's story to be true or something to that effect.

And they did discuss briefly the bounty by the New Black Panthers. Sure that it will be addressed sooner or later by LE.

(all this from memory only)

vlpate
04-05-2012, 02:15 AM
NO! The call BEGAN at 7:12 and ended at 7:16. If the shot rang out at 7:16:44 that is totally consistent with the GF's story. And if the phone logs show the call ending at 7:16 -- that means it could have ended anywhere from 7:16:00 to 7:16:59. We're talking a matter of seconds. I THINK WE JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT HERE!!!

Which came first, the release of the 911 calls or the girl's story? I haven't seen an actual log from her phone. The duration of the call would be on both their phone logs, right? They're just not showing that page to media.

Reader
04-05-2012, 02:21 AM
<modsnip>

I see Helplessly Hoping already posted but here are a few quotes:

Voice stress analysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Voice Stress Analysis (VSA) technology is said to record psychophysiological stress responses that are present in human voice, when a person suffers psychological stress in response to a stimulus (question) and where the consequences may be dire for the subject being 'tested'.[1]

In the Detection Of Deception (DOD) scenario, the voice-stress produced in response to a Relevant Question ("did you do it?") is referred to as psychological stress or 'deceptive stress'. No DOD technology can detect a lie or truth unequivocally. It is the fear of being exposed to the question being posed that produces the 'high stress' voice signature, aka voice graph or voice tracing.

The technique's accuracy remains debated. There are independent research studies that support the use of VSA as a reliable lie detection technology, whilst there are other studies that dispute its reliability.[2][3]
------
Federally funded research via the American Polygraph Association in the United States showed "little validity" in the technique. This study can be considered to be biased.[5]

Air Force Research Laboratory[6] conducted validation studies into VSA and concluded that mainstream VSA[7] were as reliable as polygraph when used by expertly trained examiner-operators.

There is tension between the voice stress analysis community and the polygraph community, due in the main to the fact that the polygraph is heavily regulated and has been subject to numerous detailed, contentious scientific studies, while voice stress analysis is largely unregulated. However, there are studies which show results better than chance.[8]

Not worth much sounds to me...IMO

RANCH
04-05-2012, 02:21 AM
Which came first, the release of the 911 calls or the girl's story? I haven't seen an actual log from her phone. The duration of the call would be on both their phone logs, right? They're just not showing that page to media.

That's a good question. Why hasn't the GF's phone records be released to the press to prove when and how long she talked to Trayvon?

HiHater
04-05-2012, 02:22 AM
Defining a Hate Crime

A hate crime is a traditional offense like murder, arson, or vandalism with an added element of bias. For the purposes of collecting statistics, Congress has defined a hate crime as a "criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender's bias against a race, religion, disability, ethnic origin or sexual orientation." Hate itself is not a crime—and the FBI is mindful of protecting freedom of speech and other civil liberties.

So, if GZ was pursuing Trayvon and targeting him because of the burglaries, he was doing so in part because Trayvon was black and fit the profile? Or would he have to have some other bias against blacks that would be proven some other way (i.e. the racial slur)? Wondering aloud... :)

I need to wake up tomorrow and see George Zimmerman is in :jail:

TonyGatto
04-05-2012, 02:23 AM
This isn't looking good for GZ. He is going to have to say he had to kill Trayvon during an altercation that lasted less than a minute. Or, he is going to have to say the alteration was longer than that and TM was on the phone during it. And it's going to contradict what the 16 old girl says -- who I think is going to be a credible witness.

HiHater
04-05-2012, 02:23 AM
That's a good question. Why hasn't the GF's phone records be released to the press to prove when and how long she talked to Trayvon?

Her phone records should show the exact same thing as Trayvon's?

HiHater
04-05-2012, 02:24 AM
This isn't looking good for GZ. He is going to have to say he had to kill Trayvon during an altercation that lasted less than a minute. Or, he is going to have to say the alteration was longer than that and TM was on the phone during it. And it's going to contradict what the 16 old girl says -- who I think is going to be a credible witness.

I think so too. She is locked into her statement, as it was recorded. She's 16, and really has no reason to lie...

vlpate
04-05-2012, 02:25 AM
Piers Morgan did an awful job. He was not up on his facts, not realizing that it's NOT against the law for GZ to have had a gun as captain of the NW. He started out by saying the "vast majority of Americans" think GZ should be arrested. Fell into the trap of saying cops told him to "stop" following TM. I like Piers -- but he just did not have his facts and it showed. As I posted during the broadcast -- he could take a lesson or two from Lawrence O'Donnell.
BEM: Right there is the answer - he's playing to that vast majority for ratings, IMO. He missed a memo.

csziggy
04-05-2012, 02:27 AM
I think the fact that the time of the gunshot is on record is very important. There are people that are defending GZ so staunchly .. that they have gone so far as to imply tht the SYG laws only apply to GZ. So, as TM's attorney bought up this evening on Piers.. The phone records show that TM was on the phone with his girlfriend and the call ended at 7:12p. If TM is shot at 7:16p please explain to me how all of this took place that GZ's team is referring to?

The girlfriend's last call began at 7:12 and lasted 4 minutes - from the screen shot of the call log of TM's phone on CNN. The first 911 call began at 7:16 - the one with the screams and the gunshot at 44 seconds into the call.

GZ's call to the SPD ended at 7:13:41. He'd lost sight of TM just before TM's girlfriend's call started.

So there is very little time to have things happen. Two minutes and maybe twenty seconds. No confrontation between GZ and Trayvon was caught on any recording unless you count the screams on the 911 recording.

The girlfriend said TM asked, "Why are you following me?" and GZ said, "What are you doing here?" just before her call was cut off. If her story is accurate, the screams heard on the 911 recording began immediately after that exchange.

I'm too tired to dig out links right now, but I do have them.

TonyGatto
04-05-2012, 02:30 AM
That's a good question. Why hasn't the GF's phone records be released to the press to prove when and how long she talked to Trayvon?

I believe they were by Crump. He had that big ol newser and even held the audio recorder up and played her voice. I think he showed the records to the press -- but didn't actually hand the records over. But it's well documented, many articles -- Crump saying they spoke on the phone all day and the last call was from 7:12 to 7:16.

Reader
04-05-2012, 02:32 AM
The call with his girlfriend initiated at 7:12 and ended when Trayvon confronted GZ - according to the girlfriend and Crump.

Ummmm, NO...I don't think Trayvon's girlfriend and his family's lawyer said Trayvon confronted GZ, but that GZ confronted Trayvon....

IMO

m00c0w
04-05-2012, 02:33 AM
Her phone records should show the exact same thing as Trayvon's?

Not necessarily. If she called him and it went to voicemail, it would show as an outgoing call on her records, but wouldn't necessarily show up on Trayvon's. Those times might help narrow things down.

Reader
04-05-2012, 02:38 AM
Which came first, the release of the 911 calls or the girl's story? I haven't seen an actual log from her phone. The duration of the call would be on both their phone logs, right? They're just not showing that page to media.

Why haven't we seen the logs/records of GZ's calls that day and night?

Might be very interesting to know who he had been talking to....IMO

TonyGatto
04-05-2012, 02:40 AM
Pulled from a couple of days ago...


csziggy
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 206
Timeline, GZ's call, and odd noises
After Concerned Papa put together his timeline and estimate of the distances and time needed to travel, I looked for accurate timelines that put together the released information from calls and call logs. I couldn't find anything that had really accurate time stamps.

So I put together the call log from:
GFZ's "911" call log as listed in the initial police report - http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...l%20Report.pdf
The times from the recording of GZ's call - http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/911/call1.wav
And the call log from Trayvon's T-Mobile phone I screen captured from the ABC News report about Trayvon's girlfriend's calls: http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-mar...7#.T3c-atmP_Kg (The shot of Trayvon's call log from the ABC News story only shows the last call from the girlfriend.)
Here is a link to the PDF of the timeline I put together:
My Timeline
The underlined times are from the police call log, the other times are from my notes on the recorded call - and come at the end of the comment/event logged. The calls to Trayvon from his girlfriend are highlighted in blue. Police dispatcher notes from the log, in red. Noises I hear on the recording are in green.

There are some odd noises on the recording of GZ's call to SPD I can't identify that I would love to see what the people here think they might be:
Rhythmic, swishing noise
Fainting beeping
Clicking noise - The noise is repeated three separate times in the recording of GZ's call - this clip is the clearest and loudest.

Any theories on what these noises are?

RANCH
04-05-2012, 02:49 AM
Her phone records should show the exact same thing as Trayvon's?

And that could verify the timeline of the phone calls, right?

vlpate
04-05-2012, 02:50 AM
That's a good question. Why hasn't the GF's phone records be released to the press to prove when and how long she talked to Trayvon?

I find two things very odd about the girlfriend's story.
7:11:59 - Subject running toward back of complex
7:12 - Trayvon's girlfriend calls Trayvon at almost the exact moment he takes off running. (GZ had no way of knowing this)

Trayvon tells her a strange man is staring at him, although he's already run away from GZ. Girlfriend tells him to run, he says he's not going to run, he's going to walk fast.

7:16 - Phone call between TM and GF ends suddenly when Trayvon's ear plugs fall out. No one is going to convince me the call ended at that moment. His phone was in his pocket - he'd have had to turn it off for it to disconnect. I'm just not buying it.

highflyer
04-05-2012, 02:56 AM
The call with his girlfriend initiated at 7:12 and ended when Trayvon confronted GZ - according to the girlfriend and Crump.

You mean when GZ confronted Trayvon, according to the girlfriend and Crump?

TonyGatto
04-05-2012, 02:57 AM
I find two things very odd about the girlfriend's story.
7:11:59 - Subject running toward back of complex
7:12 - Trayvon's girlfriend calls Trayvon at almost the exact moment he takes off running. (GZ had no way of knowing this)

Trayvon tells her a strange man is staring at him, although he's already run away from GZ. Girlfriend tells him to run, he says he's not going to run, he's going to walk fast.

7:16 - Phone call between TM and GF ends suddenly when Trayvon's ear plugs fall out. No one is going to convince me the call ended at that moment. His phone was in his pocket - he'd have had to turn it off for it to disconnect. I'm just not buying it.

Where are you getting these times and information?

fran
04-05-2012, 02:59 AM
I'm going to lock this thread for this evening. When an available mod logs on in the morning, the thread will then be unlocked.

Thank you all for your concern for the Trayvon Martin case and most especially, thank you for your participation in Websleuths.

Have a good evening and see you all tomorrow.

Sincerely,
fran

:offtobed:

LiveLaughLuv
04-05-2012, 07:14 AM
Night of Trayvon Martin's killing filled with conflicting reports
April 5, 2012

SANFORD, Fla. -- Sunday evening, Feb. 26: It was raining in central Florida while the NBA All-Star game and the Oscars were about to begin on TV.

A 17-year-old high school junior from Miami Gardens serving a 10-day suspension went to 7-Eleven to get candy. It was the third time Trayvon Martin had been disciplined at school, so this time his parents sent him to a quiet, racially mixed gated community in Sanford, Fla., with his dad to get his priorities straight. He was African American and wore a hoodie.

George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old neighborhood watch volunteer who routinely called police to report anything awry, had just made dinner and told his family he was headed to Target. He was Hispanic and wore a holstered Kel Tek 9mm semiautomatic handgun.

http://www.freep.com/article/20120405/NEWS07/204050441/Night-of-Trayvon-Martin-s-killing-filled-with-conflicting-reports

I'm hoping the physical evidence will come to light. Eyewitness accounts are conflicting...waiting to see if they release the autopsy report..that will be very important...

Justice for Trayvon Martin

highflyer
04-05-2012, 07:35 AM
Pulled from a couple of days ago...


csziggy
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 206
Timeline, GZ's call, and odd noises
After Concerned Papa put together his timeline and estimate of the distances and time needed to travel, I looked for accurate timelines that put together the released information from calls and call logs. I couldn't find anything that had really accurate time stamps.

So I put together the call log from:
GFZ's "911" call log as listed in the initial police report - http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...l%20Report.pdf
The times from the recording of GZ's call - http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/911/call1.wav
And the call log from Trayvon's T-Mobile phone I screen captured from the ABC News report about Trayvon's girlfriend's calls: http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-mar...7#.T3c-atmP_Kg (The shot of Trayvon's call log from the ABC News story only shows the last call from the girlfriend.)
Here is a link to the PDF of the timeline I put together:
My Timeline
The underlined times are from the police call log, the other times are from my notes on the recorded call - and come at the end of the comment/event logged. The calls to Trayvon from his girlfriend are highlighted in blue. Police dispatcher notes from the log, in red. Noises I hear on the recording are in green.

There are some odd noises on the recording of GZ's call to SPD I can't identify that I would love to see what the people here think they might be:
Rhythmic, swishing noise
Fainting beeping
Clicking noise - The noise is repeated three separate times in the recording of GZ's call - this clip is the clearest and loudest.

Any theories on what these noises are?

Windshield wipers
Sound car makes when lights were still on or keys were in ignition when George left his vehicle
Putting clip in gun

LambChop
04-05-2012, 07:48 AM
From the police reports, between one and three police officers gave Travyon CPR. We do not have the SFD EMT reports and don't know exactly when they arrived. Only one ambulance was on the scene, a second one was canceled. We don't at this point know what other personnel were on the scene - other SFD, police officers, etc.

Trayvon from all we know was dead at scene.

GZ was treated while sitting in the back of a police car, not in the ambulance.

Do we even know there were two ambulances called? GZ was treated in the back of the patrol car by SFD. They sometimes arrive in a van. Could there have only been one ambulance called that was cancelled? If there were an ambulance there why wouldn't the EMT have treated GZ in the ambulance??? The only one I heard say they cancelled the second ambulance was Mr. Taaffe. Anyone know for sure???? jmo

LiveLaughLuv
04-05-2012, 07:49 AM
George Zimmerman hires 2nd lawyer
Neighborhood Watch leader shot, killed Trayvon Martin in Sanford
Published On: Apr 04 2012 12:48:47 AM EDT Updated On: Apr 05 2012 07:03:55 AM EDT

ORLANDO, Fla. - George Zimmerman has hired a second attorney who will work alongside his first lawyer, Craig Sonner.

Defense attorney Hal Uhrig has been practicing for more than 30 years in the Orlando area. He said that he feels comfortable that the evidence surrounding the shooting of Trayvon Martin does not support an indictment of Zimmerman.

"Understand those people are now under incredible social pressure, they're being told there's going to be riots in the street if 'you don't give us the justice with the conclusion we want,'" Uhrig said.



http://www.clickorlando.com/news/George-Zimmerman-hires-2nd-lawyer/-/1637132/10180938/-/12bc53nz/-/index.html



Zimmerman's lawyers said they haven't met Zimmerman in person.
:banghead::banghead::banghead:

LiveLaughLuv
04-05-2012, 07:55 AM
The search for probable cause against George Zimmerman in Trayvon Martin case
By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel

7:36 p.m. EDT, April 4, 2012
In order to arrest George Zimmerman for the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, the special prosecutor heading the investigation must show a judge that she has found probable cause.

Sanford police faced public outrage when they announced they found no probable cause to arrest the Neighborhood Watch volunteer.

So what exactly is it?

It's a 'reasonable person' standard under the law," said John Tanner, former state attorney in the 7th Judicial Circuit, which includes Volusia County.

It is evidence that would convince a reasonable person that a suspect committed a crime.

For example: It's a rock of crack cocaine found in a man's pocket. It's a department-store security video showing a woman slipping a necklace into her handbag. It's a blood test showing a driver's blood-alcohol level above the legal limit.

Bob Dekle, who prosecuted serial killer Ted Bundy and is now a professor at the Levin College of Law at the University of Florida, characterized probable cause as "just above suspicion."

In the case of Trayvon's shooting death, it would be any piece of evidence that would convince a judge that Zimmerman probably committed a crime when he shot the unarmed teen in a gated Sanford community in late February.

That could be a witness, a piece of physical evidence or something else.



more
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/florida/os-trayvon-martin-probable-cause-20120404,0,650650,full.story

gxm
04-05-2012, 08:00 AM
NO! The call BEGAN at 7:12 and ended at 7:16. If the shot rang out at 7:16:44 that is totally consistent with the GF's story. And if the phone logs show the call ending at 7:16 -- that means it could have ended anywhere from 7:16:00 to 7:16:59. We're talking a matter of seconds. I THINK WE JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT HERE!!!

They'll have to check to see if the time sources are/were synchronized. I only mention this because, in my house, the iMac, iPad, iPhone and cable box—which are all supposed to be "accurate" time keepers—are off by several minutes. It's very frustrating and I haven't been able to figure out why because in theory they should all be synching to the same EDT master clock (or at least that's what I think they should be doing).

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

LiveLaughLuv
04-05-2012, 08:02 AM
Zimmerman's Arrest Should Be a Family Affair, Including His Father
Posted: 04/ 4/2012 1:30 pm


George Zimmerman, the man who instantly turned himself into public enemy number one, is an intriguing character for a multitude of reasons. When I read Zimmerman's story, he reminds me of one of my more "interesting" friends who had a similar story in his life. This person was also a wannabe police officer who lived with his parents, dropped out of college and took things way too seriously. There are few men more frightening than wannabe cops who failed the psychological tests.


more
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-boyce-watkins/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_b_1393761.html

LambChop
04-05-2012, 08:03 AM
OMG, that's funny. The real watchmen are coming to get him. I just thought about the attorneys on Piers tonight stating that it's not even a fat that TM went to the store.. and that maybe he was just walking around. Piers responded how would you know it's a fact Trayvon is dead so he can't state the facts. I can't believe that they are attacking something that has been documented. I'm sure there are cameras at the 711 but no one has really disputed this fact. But, his attorneys would rather dispute that instead of explain wht was GZ doing following TM?

Even if there were no video at 7-11 there would be a record of the sale at the approximate time TM would have been there. jmo

LiveLaughLuv
04-05-2012, 08:07 AM
April 2, 2012 11:14 AM

Ambulance called for George Zimmerman canceled, dispatch recordings say
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57408040-504083/ambulance-called-for-george-zimmerman-canceled-dispatch-recordings-say/

Emeralgem
04-05-2012, 08:30 AM
Zimmerman's Arrest Should Be a Family Affair, Including His Father
Posted: 04/ 4/2012 1:30 pm


George Zimmerman, the man who instantly turned himself into public enemy number one, is an intriguing character for a multitude of reasons. When I read Zimmerman's story, he reminds me of one of my more "interesting" friends who had a similar story in his life. This person was also a wannabe police officer who lived with his parents, dropped out of college and took things way too seriously. There are few men more frightening than wannabe cops who failed the psychological tests.


more
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-boyce-watkins/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_b_1393761.html

IMHO..Excellent article. I agree wholeheartedly. Thank you for posting the link.. JMHO

ETA.. Hasn't it been revealed his mother is/was a Deputy Court Clerk?

Elley Mae
04-05-2012, 08:38 AM
http://www.freep.com/article/C4/20120405/NEWS07/204050441/Night-of-Trayvon-Martin-s-killing-filled-with-conflicting-reports?odyssey=nav|head

It was the third time Trayvon Martin had been disciplined at school, so this time his parents sent him to a quiet, racially mixed gated community in Sanford, Fla., with his dad to get his priorities straight.

A T-Mobile phone log provided by the family's attorney shows Trayvon's girlfriend called him again at 7:12 p.m., just moments after they had hung up. "I think this dude is following me," Trayvon told her, according to her account.

The girl said she offered Trayvon advice: "Run!"

Trayvon did just that.

The girlfriend said she heard the two exchange questions: "Why are you following me?" and "What are you doing here?"

"While SFD was attending to Zimmerman, I overheard him state, 'I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me,' " Smith wrote.

In an interview two weeks after the incident, Chief Lee, who has since stepped down from his post, said witness statements and physical evidence backed up Zimmerman's version of events. He suggested that based on the timing of the call, he believed that Trayvon went out of his way to approach the person tailing him and mouth off.

LambChop
04-05-2012, 08:55 AM
The search for probable cause against George Zimmerman in Trayvon Martin case
By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel

7:36 p.m. EDT, April 4, 2012
In order to arrest George Zimmerman for the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, the special prosecutor heading the investigation must show a judge that she has found probable cause.

Sanford police faced public outrage when they announced they found no probable cause to arrest the Neighborhood Watch volunteer.

So what exactly is it?

It's a 'reasonable person' standard under the law," said John Tanner, former state attorney in the 7th Judicial Circuit, which includes Volusia County.

It is evidence that would convince a reasonable person that a suspect committed a crime.

For example: It's a rock of crack cocaine found in a man's pocket. It's a department-store security video showing a woman slipping a necklace into her handbag. It's a blood test showing a driver's blood-alcohol level above the legal limit.

Bob Dekle, who prosecuted serial killer Ted Bundy and is now a professor at the Levin College of Law at the University of Florida, characterized probable cause as "just above suspicion."

In the case of Trayvon's shooting death, it would be any piece of evidence that would convince a judge that Zimmerman probably committed a crime when he shot the unarmed teen in a gated Sanford community in late February.

That could be a witness, a piece of physical evidence or something else.



more
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/florida/os-trayvon-martin-probable-cause-20120404,0,650650,full.story

And isn't it ironic how the public now views GZ's accounting of what happened with the same suspicious judgment as GZ used to judge TM. jmo

cityslick
04-05-2012, 08:58 AM
Night of Trayvon Martin's killing filled with conflicting reports
April 5, 2012

SANFORD, Fla. -- Sunday evening, Feb. 26: It was raining in central Florida while the NBA All-Star game and the Oscars were about to begin on TV.

A 17-year-old high school junior from Miami Gardens serving a 10-day suspension went to 7-Eleven to get candy. It was the third time Trayvon Martin had been disciplined at school, so this time his parents sent him to a quiet, racially mixed gated community in Sanford, Fla., with his dad to get his priorities straight. He was African American and wore a hoodie.

George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old neighborhood watch volunteer who routinely called police to report anything awry, had just made dinner and told his family he was headed to Target. He was Hispanic and wore a holstered Kel Tek 9mm semiautomatic handgun.

http://www.freep.com/article/20120405/NEWS07/204050441/Night-of-Trayvon-Martin-s-killing-filled-with-conflicting-reports

I'm hoping the physical evidence will come to light. Eyewitness accounts are conflicting...waiting to see if they release the autopsy report..that will be very important...

Justice for Trayvon Martin

BBM

I agree, the speculation with this case is off the charts. The main piece of evidence so far is only GZ's story and the GF phone call. But there is details missing so it's almost impossible to link the two together. Add in a LE video that may or may not be showing certain injuries, a police report that may or may not be accurate, etc, etc, etc and here we are.

cityslick
04-05-2012, 09:02 AM
And isn't it ironic how the public now views GZ's accounting of what happened with the same suspicious judgment as GZ used to judge TM. jmo

Even though I'm not willing to throw the book at him yet, because I don't have a lot of facts in this case, I agree with most others that he should at least be arrested on a manslaughter charge considering he shot an unarmed person and it's only his word on what happened. Let him prove his case, if he does ultimately get his day in court and he successfully proves it's self defense, so be it. Let the justice system work how it was intended. Everyone is entitled due process.

Bottle Cap
04-05-2012, 09:04 AM
After all this time? He is hiding, IMO, because new black panthers are after him.

This does make one wonder if ole George has any greater insight now into what Trayvon felt like the night he was stalked and shot down in the street, i.e. what it feels like to be on the receiving end of a rogue mentality that combines little regard for personal rights with an unwillingness to let the authorities do their jobs. The universe has a funny way of teaching people lessons they need to learn, whether they want to learn them or not, no?

TexanMom
04-05-2012, 09:07 AM
BBM

I agree, the speculation with this case is off the charts. The main piece of evidence so far is only GZ's story and the GF phone call. But there is details missing so it's almost impossible to link the two together. Add in a LE video that may or may not be showing certain injuries, a police report that may or may not be accurate, etc, etc, etc and here we are.

ITA! I'm just astounded by some of the conclusion jumping.

w1df10wr
04-05-2012, 09:20 AM
GZ neighbor & fellow watch volunteer who wasn't at the scene, believes GZ confronted TM.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57403716/friend-of-martin-shooter-id-do-the-same-thing/ - March 23, 2012

From the link- IBM added for quote credit.

CBS News Mark Strassmann question ~"Do you think he did the right thing by confronting Treyvon Martin?"

"Yes."

"You do?"

"Yes. I would do the same thing," said Taaffe.---

If FT's answer is based on what he would do, that's not fair to GZ, is it?

Elley Mae
04-05-2012, 09:21 AM
GZ neighbor & fellow watch volunteer who wasn't at the scene, believes GZ confronted TM.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57403716/friend-of-martin-shooter-id-do-the-same-thing/ - March 23, 2012

From the link- IBM added for quote credit.

CBS News Mark Strassmann question ~"Do you think he did the right thing by confronting Treyvon Martin?"

"Yes."

"You do?"

"Yes. I would do the same thing," said Taaffe.---

If FT's answer is based on what he would do, that's not fair to GZ, is it?

That to me was a "loaded" question. just sayin

mercuriod
04-05-2012, 09:22 AM
I can't understand how he can use that defense. GM's actions don't show that he "reasonably feared" for his safety. If a person fears for their safety they do not purposely put themselves in harms way. That is not reasonable. It's interesting that it states that he "reasonably feared" meaning if he even thought out of paranoia that TM was packing he can shoot him. So, even if TM is not packing but GZ THINKS that he is than he can defend himself. But, why would you put yourself in harm's way and then claim self defense?

Preface this by saying I have not read the entire statute of the SYG law so this is all jmo, imo and all that jazz. But I believe that it states in there some where "what a reasonable person" would consider a fear as a threat to life or severe injury. I am not sure we can consider GZ a "reasonable person". Again jmo, imo and all that jazz.

Footwarrior
04-05-2012, 09:24 AM
And isn't it ironic how the public now views GZ's accounting of what happened with the same suspicious judgment as GZ used to judge TM. jmo

The unarmed dead person with a gunshot wound and the weapon in GZ's possession don't count as probable cause?

tehcloser
04-05-2012, 09:29 AM
A T-Mobile phone log provided by the family's attorney shows Trayvon's girlfriend called him again at 7:12 p.m., just moments after they had hung up. "I think this dude is following me," Trayvon told her, according to her account.

The girl said she offered Trayvon advice: "Run!"
Trayvon did just that.

At 7:13, two minutes into Zimmerman's call, he tells the police operator: "S --, he's running."

http://www.freep.com/article/C4/20120405/NEWS07/204050441/Night-of-Trayvon-Martin-s-killing-filled-with-conflicting-reports?odyssey=nav%7Chead

tlcya
04-05-2012, 09:33 AM
http://www.freep.com/article/C4/20120405/NEWS07/204050441/Night-of-Trayvon-Martin-s-killing-filled-with-conflicting-reports?odyssey=nav|head

It was the third time Trayvon Martin had been disciplined at school, so this time his parents sent him to a quiet, racially mixed gated community in Sanford, Fla., with his dad to get his priorities straight.

A T-Mobile phone log provided by the family's attorney shows Trayvon's girlfriend called him again at 7:12 p.m., just moments after they had hung up. "I think this dude is following me," Trayvon told her, according to her account.

The girl said she offered Trayvon advice: "Run!"

Trayvon did just that.

The girlfriend said she heard the two exchange questions: "Why are you following me?" and "What are you doing here?"

"While SFD was attending to Zimmerman, I overheard him state, 'I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me,' " Smith wrote.

In an interview two weeks after the incident, Chief Lee, who has since stepped down from his post, said witness statements and physical evidence backed up Zimmerman's version of events. He suggested that based on the timing of the call, he believed that Trayvon went out of his way to approach the person tailing him and mouth off.


BBM this statement by the chief makes it sound as if it is his opinion that TM shooting is justified because TM went out of his way to approach the person tailing him and "mouthed off" IMO.

um, yeah . . .

First of all how does one go out of their way to approach the person tailing them?? The mere fact the person is tailing them makes going out of their way and approach unnecessary, the tailer has already gone out of HIS way and done the approaching.

This post is not directed at you elley, but simply responding to your linked comment by the Chief. ;)

O/T Good morning all.

ETA If mouthing off were justifiable reason to shoot and kill teens teenagers would be in danger of extinction.

mercuriod
04-05-2012, 09:35 AM
Pulled from a couple of days ago...


csziggy
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 206
Timeline, GZ's call, and odd noises
After Concerned Papa put together his timeline and estimate of the distances and time needed to travel, I looked for accurate timelines that put together the released information from calls and call logs. I couldn't find anything that had really accurate time stamps.

So I put together the call log from:
GFZ's "911" call log as listed in the initial police report - http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigati...l%20Report.pdf
The times from the recording of GZ's call - http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/911/call1.wav
And the call log from Trayvon's T-Mobile phone I screen captured from the ABC News report about Trayvon's girlfriend's calls: http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-mar...7#.T3c-atmP_Kg (The shot of Trayvon's call log from the ABC News story only shows the last call from the girlfriend.)
Here is a link to the PDF of the timeline I put together:
My Timeline
The underlined times are from the police call log, the other times are from my notes on the recorded call - and come at the end of the comment/event logged. The calls to Trayvon from his girlfriend are highlighted in blue. Police dispatcher notes from the log, in red. Noises I hear on the recording are in green.

There are some odd noises on the recording of GZ's call to SPD I can't identify that I would love to see what the people here think they might be:
Rhythmic, swishing noise
Fainting beeping
Clicking noise - The noise is repeated three separate times in the recording of GZ's call - this clip is the clearest and loudest.

Any theories on what these noises are?

I have been thinking about that and I wonder if those clicking noises are GZ playing with the safety on his gun. By playing I mean flipping it back and forth as he is pursuing TM. Kind of like some people do a ball point pen when they are nervous click the top rhythmically as a "comfort" thing. I think it gave GZ much comfort and courage to carry that gun and think he probably played with the safety all the time as a way of reassuring himself that he was in control. JMO, IMO AND ALL THAT JAZZ

cityslick
04-05-2012, 09:37 AM
A T-Mobile phone log provided by the family's attorney shows Trayvon's girlfriend called him again at 7:12 p.m., just moments after they had hung up. "I think this dude is following me," Trayvon told her, according to her account.

The girl said she offered Trayvon advice: "Run!"
Trayvon did just that.

At 7:13, two minutes into Zimmerman's call, he tells the police operator: "S --, he's running."

http://www.freep.com/article/C4/20120405/NEWS07/204050441/Night-of-Trayvon-Martin-s-killing-filled-with-conflicting-reports?odyssey=nav%7Chead

I thought he said he wasn't going to run?

Elley Mae
04-05-2012, 09:39 AM
It does come down to a persons opinion, I just hope that person is open-minded.

Gin
04-05-2012, 09:40 AM
The unarmed dead person with a gunshot wound and the weapon in GZ's possession don't count as probable cause?
Exactly. And if someone can explain this to me, I'd appreciate it. GZ was taken to the Police Station in handcuffs. The responding police must have found it worthy to cuff him and take him in. What changed a few hours later, and suddenly he was free to go, no booking, no nothing?

JeannaT
04-05-2012, 09:40 AM
Even though I'm not willing to throw the book at him yet, because I don't have a lot of facts in this case, I agree with most others that he should at least be arrested on a manslaughter charge considering he shot an unarmed person and it's only his word on what happened. Let him prove his case, if he does ultimately get his day in court and he successfully proves it's self defense, so be it. Let the justice system work how it was intended. Everyone is entitled due process.

That's not how our court system works. After an investigation is done, if there isn't the belief with the prosecutor that he can convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime was committed, there are no charges filed.

Our court system doesn't just throw up its hands at making a decision about whether a crime has occurred, and let the jury sort it out while the hapless suspect tries to prove his innocence.

Our court system works in the exact opposite way.

tlcya
04-05-2012, 09:41 AM
Preface this by saying I have not read the entire statute of the SYG law so this is all jmo, imo and all that jazz. But I believe that it states in there some where "what a reasonable person" would consider a fear as a threat to life or severe injury. I am not sure we can consider GZ a "reasonable person". Again jmo, imo and all that jazz.

BBM agreed, which is why I feel GZ's history of brushes with law and behaviors are completely relevant to this case, whereas TM's school suspensions for non violent activities are not.

:cow:

JeannaT
04-05-2012, 09:44 AM
The unarmed dead person with a gunshot wound and the weapon in GZ's possession don't count as probable cause?

No, it doesn't. Because shooting someone in self-defense isn't a crime. And the evidence we have (two eye witness accounts, GZ's account that matches the evidence on his jacket and head), and a girlfriend who acknowledged Trayvon began the altercation verbally, and other witnesses who say they heard the sounds of a fight for several minutes before the shot was fired all point to the theory that GZ is telling the truth - he shot Trayvon legally because he was in fear of great bodily harm. Which he had already sustained, IMHO.

But the law doesn't require that you have to sustain great bodily harm first, and then shoot.

Concerned Papa
04-05-2012, 09:46 AM
I want to be sure I understand something about GZ's storyline correctly. While we certainly don't have all the facts at this point, there are a few that have been established.

-From the 911 call log we know that GZ called the non emergency line at [7:09:34 pm]

-From the same 911 call we know that GZ told the operator that TM started running at 2:07 minutes into the call or [7:11:41 pm]

-We know that at some point afterwards, GZ is claiming that TM decked him with a punch that broke his nose and got on top of him and began bashing his head against the sidewalk causing GZ to fear for his life and therefore be justified in pulling out his gun and firing one shot into TM's chest and killing him. We know that shot was fired at [7:16:41 pm] because we've all heard the shot at the :41 mark of a neighbor's 911 call which began at 7:16 pm.

-We're now also getting the details of TM's girlfriend's final call to TM at 7:12 pm for a call that lasted until some point between 7:16 pm and 7:17 pm when the call was disconnected.

Here's what I want to know if I'm understanding properly. Is George Zimmerman actually saying that a 17 year old kid with a slender build, attacked a 28 year old ex bouncer and beat him so brutally that the was afraid he was going to die.....WHILE HE WAS TALKING ON THE PHONE WITH HIS GIRLFRIEND?

Have I got that right?

Adrienne37
04-05-2012, 09:46 AM
Zimmerman's Arrest Should Be a Family Affair, Including His Father
Posted: 04/ 4/2012 1:30 pm


George Zimmerman, the man who instantly turned himself into public enemy number one, is an intriguing character for a multitude of reasons. When I read Zimmerman's story, he reminds me of one of my more "interesting" friends who had a similar story in his life. This person was also a wannabe police officer who lived with his parents, dropped out of college and took things way too seriously. There are few men more frightening than wannabe cops who failed the psychological tests.


more
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-boyce-watkins/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_b_1393761.html

Thanks LLL. That was a great article and one that I agree with a million times over. I wonder where Zimmerman Sr. was at when Zimmerman was outside spraying down "bullies" with the water hose? Why didn't he bother to correct his son's behavior then? If he had held Zimmerman accountable for his actions through the years, then perhaps Trayvon would be alive today though considering the destructive path in which Zimmerman was allowed to continue, to do as he pleased without fear of punishment, I feel certain if it hadn't been Trayvon, it would have been some other child at some point, perhaps the little 7-9 kids that he called and reported to 911?


~jmo~

JeannaT
04-05-2012, 09:48 AM
Exactly. And if someone can explain this to me, I'd appreciate it. GZ was taken to the Police Station in handcuffs. The responding police must have found it worthy to cuff him and take him in. What changed a few hours later, and suddenly he was free to go, no booking, no nothing?

The SA met with the investigators and determined there wasn't enough evidence to prove a case in court. As I recall this occurred about 3 a.m.

LiveLaughLuv
04-05-2012, 09:51 AM
Trayvon Martin Resolution Introduced By Congressional Black Caucus
Posted: 04/ 4/2012 8:49 pm
Updated: 04/ 5/2012 9:03 am

WASHINGTON -- The Congressional Black Caucus unveiled a resolution on Wednesday that honors the life of Trayvon Martin and calls for the repeal of "Stand Your Ground" gun laws in every state that has one, including Florida, where Martin was killed.

"Florida's misguided 'Stand Your Ground' law does not make our streets safer, rather it turns our streets into a showdown at the OK Corral," Rep. Alcee Hastings (D-Fla.), a sponsor of the resolution, said in a statement. "But this is not the Wild West. We are supposed to be a civilized society. Let Trayvon's death not be for naught. Let us honor his life by righting this wrong, and seeing that justice is served for Trayvon and his family. George Zimmerman must be prosecuted for his admitted shooting of Trayvon Martin and the 'Stand Your Ground' law must be repealed."



more
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/04/trayvon-martin-resolution-congressional-black-caucus_n_1404441.html

JeannaT
04-05-2012, 09:51 AM
I want to be sure I understand something about GZ's storyline correctly. While we certainly don't have all the facts at this point, there are a few that have been established.

-From the 911 call log we know that GZ called the non emergency line at [7:09:34 pm]

-From the same 911 call we know that GZ told the operator that TM started running at 2:07 minutes into the call or [7:11:41 pm]

-We know that at some point afterwards, GZ is claiming that TM decked him with a punch that broke his nose and got on top of him and began bashing his head against the sidewalk causing GZ to fear for his life and therefore be justified in pulling out his gun and firing one shot into TM's chest and killing him. We know that shot was fired at [7:16:41 pm] because we've all heard the shot at the :41 mark of a neighbor's 911 call which began at 7:16 pm.

-We're now also getting the details of TM's girlfriend's final call to TM at 7:12 pm for a call that lasted until some point between 7:16 pm and 7:17 pm when the call was disconnected.

Here's what I want to know if I'm understanding properly. Is George Zimmerman actually saying that a 17 year old kid with a slender build, attacked a 28 year old ex bouncer and beat him so brutally that the was afraid he was going to die.....WHILE HE WAS TALKING ON THE PHONE WITH HIS GIRLFRIEND?

Have I got that right?

No. As far as I know, you've got everything right up til the last statement. I think time clocks are not accurate here. What the GF has clearly said is that the moment a physical altercation began, the phone went dead. So no, he wasn't on the phone during the scuffle. He was on the phone up until the moment the scuffle began. She heard the verbal exchange, initiated by Trayvon, and then didn't hear anything after what appeared to sound like a shove.

Velouria
04-05-2012, 09:52 AM
No, it doesn't. Because shooting someone in self-defense isn't a crime. And the evidence we have (two eye witness accounts, GZ's account that matches the evidence on his jacket and head), and a girlfriend who acknowledged Trayvon began the altercation verbally, and other witnesses who say they heard the sounds of a fight for several minutes before the shot was fired all point to the theory that GZ is telling the truth - he shot Trayvon legally because he was in fear of great bodily harm. Which he had already sustained, IMHO.

But the law doesn't require that you have to sustain great bodily harm first, and then shoot.

And yet, the lead investigator thought there was evidence that this was NOT self-defense.

Do you have access to some exculpatory information that Officer Serino did not?

Aedrys
04-05-2012, 09:52 AM
No, it doesn't. Because shooting someone in self-defense isn't a crime. And the evidence we have (two eye witness accounts, GZ's account that matches the evidence on his jacket and head), and a girlfriend who acknowledged Trayvon began the altercation verbally, and other witnesses who say they heard the sounds of a fight for several minutes before the shot was fired all point to the theory that GZ is telling the truth - he shot Trayvon legally because he was in fear of great bodily harm. Which he had already sustained, IMHO.

But the law doesn't require that you have to sustain great bodily harm first, and then shoot.

GZ had a gun and weighs, I believe, twice as much as Trayvon at least. Maybe even three times as much. Trayvon was unarmed. Who exactly was going to have great bodily harm done to them here? How could GZ be afraid of great bodily harm when he was the only one armed and weighs a lot more than the boy he is chasing? He initiated this. Even if Trayvon mouthed back, GZ still weighs more and has a GUN. Claiming self defense is ludicrous here. There is no way that GZ was in fear of great bodily harm. I just don't see it.

The only person afraid of great bodily harm was Trayvon, which is why he fought back to protect himself!

JeannaT
04-05-2012, 09:54 AM
And yet, the lead investigator thought there was evidence that this was NOT self-defense.

Do you have access to some exculpatory information that Officer Serino did not?

Yes. The lead investigator believed this was a case where charges should be filed.

I think that happens a lot - LE goes to the prosecutor, and the prosecutor refuses to press charges because they can't win in court with the evidence so far.

It's common, and I don't think there's anything shady or underhanded about it. Cops believe a crime was committed, the prosecutor believes there's not enough evidence.

Adrienne37
04-05-2012, 09:55 AM
The SA met with the investigators and determined there wasn't enough evidence to prove a case in court. As I recall this occurred about 3 a.m.

Would this be the meeting that the SA denies attending, the one that he became extremely belligerent over?



~jmo~

tehcloser
04-05-2012, 09:55 AM
I thought he said he wasn't going to run?


That's what we have heard...but GZ said he did. So did GZ lie about him running to make his story better? Or did TM say that trying to sound brave and then take off running?

Gin
04-05-2012, 09:55 AM
The SA met with the investigators and determined there wasn't enough evidence to prove a case in court. As I recall this occurred about 3 a.m.
I am curious as to how many individuals were involved in this highly unusual 3am decision. Will be interesting to see what the FBI and DOJ finds.

JeannaT
04-05-2012, 09:56 AM
GZ had a gun and weighs, I believe, twice as much as Trayvon at least. Maybe even three times as much. Trayvon was unarmed. Who exactly was going to have great bodily harm done to them here? How could GZ be afraid of great bodily harm when he was the only one armed and weighs a lot more than the boy he is chasing? He initiated this. Even if Trayvon mouthed back, GZ still weighs more and has a GUN. Claiming self defense is ludicrous here. There is no way that GZ was in fear of great bodily harm. I just don't see it.

He could have been killed, actually. People die in fist fights all the time.

BTW, GZ didn't outweigh Trayvon by 100 pounds. Trayvon weighed approx. 160, and looking at the video in the police station, that man is NOT 260 pounds. I read a blog, on MSM, with the misconceptions in this case and that's a glaring one.

If I had to back one of these two in a fight, it would be Trayvon 100%

cityslick
04-05-2012, 09:56 AM
That's not how our court system works. After an investigation is done, if there isn't the belief with the prosecutor that he can convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime was committed, there are no charges filed.

Our court system doesn't just throw up its hands at making a decision about whether a crime has occurred, and let the jury sort it out while the hapless suspect tries to prove his innocence.

Our court system works in the exact opposite way.

Actually, it does not take reasonable doubt to indict someone and when a person is indicted, the investigation does not end. As a matter of fact, I can't point to numerous cases where the interviewing of witnesses and the gathering of evidence continued right up until trial.

LambChop
04-05-2012, 09:56 AM
I thought he said he wasn't going to run?

We don't know that he was actually running because it's GZ's accounting. And GZ was wrong about TM. TM wasn't headed for the back gate because he was staying there with family.

nao
04-05-2012, 09:57 AM
my experiance with neighborhood watch, Christmas- sent my visiting bro to the store for groceries in my auto. Bro returned wild eyed, sister what have you been doing he asks.
When my bro returned to auto with groceries, some neighborhood watch fellow was waiting for him, and went on a rant -we have your license plate, we know where you live, we know what you've been doing. What had i been doing, driving around looking at Christmas lites with the little ones, as i have done for years. Whats worse is i'd lived in that community for 20+ years and these were new people but connected to a new store front? cop shop - its a rural area , no permanant police presence.
They are not cops, i do not think its ok for them to do that.
The law in TM-GZ basicaly says if theres a fight who ever wins is innocent, because each will be in fear of their life. I don't think its about race, social status maybe.
GZ i see basicly as a pawn in the police dept issues, That police dept has been in the news before, what has'nt made it to the news, i'd like their paper work gone thru.

Kimberlyd125
04-05-2012, 09:58 AM
GZ had a gun and weighs, I believe, twice as much as Trayvon at least. Maybe even three times as much. Trayvon was unarmed. Who exactly was going to have great bodily harm done to them here? How could GZ be afraid of great bodily harm when he was the only one armed and weighs a lot more than the boy he is chasing? He initiated this. Even if Trayvon mouthed back, GZ still weighs more and has a GUN. Claiming self defense is ludicrous here. There is no way that GZ was in fear of great bodily harm. I just don't see it.

The only person afraid of great bodily harm was Trayvon, which is why he fought back to protect himself!

The BBM part is incorrect for sure.
I'll try to find the correct info. But no way was it twice or three times as much. No way.

I'm off to look.

Elley Mae
04-05-2012, 10:02 AM
We don't know that he was actually running because it's GZ's accounting. And GZ was wrong about TM. TM wasn't headed for the back gate because he was staying there with family.

http://nation.foxnews.com/george-zimmerman/2012/04/05/zimmermans-father-speaks-out-hannity

UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: Which way is he running?

ZIMMERMAN: Down towards the other entrance of the neighborhood.

UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: OK, which entrance is that that he's heading towards?

ZIMMERMAN: The back entrance --

cityslick
04-05-2012, 10:02 AM
I want to be sure I understand something about GZ's storyline correctly. While we certainly don't have all the facts at this point, there are a few that have been established.

-From the 911 call log we know that GZ called the non emergency line at [7:09:34 pm]

-From the same 911 call we know that GZ told the operator that TM started running at 2:07 minutes into the call or [7:11:41 pm]

-We know that at some point afterwards, GZ is claiming that TM decked him with a punch that broke his nose and got on top of him and began bashing his head against the sidewalk causing GZ to fear for his life and therefore be justified in pulling out his gun and firing one shot into TM's chest and killing him. We know that shot was fired at [7:16:41 pm] because we've all heard the shot at the :41 mark of a neighbor's 911 call which began at 7:16 pm.

-We're now also getting the details of TM's girlfriend's final call to TM at 7:12 pm for a call that lasted until some point between 7:16 pm and 7:17 pm when the call was disconnected.

Here's what I want to know if I'm understanding properly. Is George Zimmerman actually saying that a 17 year old kid with a slender build, attacked a 28 year old ex bouncer and beat him so brutally that the was afraid he was going to die.....WHILE HE WAS TALKING ON THE PHONE WITH HIS GIRLFRIEND?

Have I got that right?

No matter what GZ says or doesn't say, we know the call ends when the scrum starts because the GF says so (line goes dead after a push). So no, he would not be getting theoretically attacked from TM while on the phone, the GF testimony already says that didn't happen.

Also, being actually beat up brutally and perceiving that the kid was going to hurt him bad are two different things. If a person really fears someone (due to perceived stereotypes of a person, for example GZ thinks all young black males are gun toting gang bangers), then they perceive what that person could potentially do to them.

Aedrys
04-05-2012, 10:03 AM
GZ had a gun and weighs, I believe, twice as much as Trayvon at least. Maybe even three times as much. Trayvon was unarmed. Who exactly was going to have great bodily harm done to them here? How could GZ be afraid of great bodily harm when he was the only one armed and weighs a lot more than the boy he is chasing? He initiated this. Even if Trayvon mouthed back, GZ still weighs more and has a GUN. Claiming self defense is ludicrous here. There is no way that GZ was in fear of great bodily harm. I just don't see it.

The only person afraid of great bodily harm was Trayvon, which is why he fought back to protect himself!

Quoting myself because something else just occurred to me. So GZ didn't shoot Trayvon until after Trayvon jumped him and started beating him. Why didn't he shoot him BEFORE he jumped him? Wouldn't he have been afraid of great bodily harm with Trayvon coming at him? Why wasn't he afraid until after Trayvon was beating him? I'm basing this on GZ's description of the events, btw.

It just seems odd that an armed man that weighs more than a non-violent teenage boy he was chasing was pushed down and beat on before shooting the boy. Something doesn't seem right with that. It seems to me GZ knew he wouldn't get away with it unless Trayvon beat on him a bit first. He couldn't claim self defense and stand your ground if he didn't have any wounds. Maybe this sounds all conspiracy theorist, but I think he antagonized Trayvon, let Trayvon beat him up a bit, and then shot him. The events just don't make sense to me otherwise.

JeannaT
04-05-2012, 10:03 AM
The BBM part is incorrect for sure.
I'll try to find the correct info. But no way was it twice or three times as much. No way.

I'm off to look.

You're right. I think the info I read put them within about 30 pounds - and truthfully, GZ doesn't even look as heavy as 190 to me.

cityslick
04-05-2012, 10:03 AM
GZ had a gun and weighs, I believe, twice as much as Trayvon at least. Maybe even three times as much. Trayvon was unarmed. Who exactly was going to have great bodily harm done to them here? How could GZ be afraid of great bodily harm when he was the only one armed and weighs a lot more than the boy he is chasing? He initiated this. Even if Trayvon mouthed back, GZ still weighs more and has a GUN. Claiming self defense is ludicrous here. There is no way that GZ was in fear of great bodily harm. I just don't see it.

The only person afraid of great bodily harm was Trayvon, which is why he fought back to protect himself!

That's not true, he only outweighed him by 10-20 pounds. He weighed more than TM, TM had I think 3-4 inches on him in height.

Kimberlyd125
04-05-2012, 10:04 AM
The BBM part is incorrect for sure.
I'll try to find the correct info. But no way was it twice or three times as much. No way.

I'm off to look.

Outweighed, yes. By 100 pounds, no. George Zimmerman, the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who says he killed Trayvon in self-defense, outweighed him by 30 or 40 pounds, according to family members. A Sanford police incident report says Trayvon was 6 feet tall and weighed 160 pounds. A spokesman for the family's lawyers gave a slightly different set of numbers: 6 feet 1 and 150 pounds. Zimmerman is 5 feet 9 inches tall, according to the police report, but it is silent about his weight. A family member says he currently weighs about 190 pounds. Zimmerman used to be far heavier. A 2005 police report put his weight at 250 pounds, but security-camera video released last week by Sanford police show him to be much trimmer.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-02/news/os-trayvon-martin-qa3-20120402_1_civil-rights-gated-community-robert-zimmerman

mercuriod
04-05-2012, 10:04 AM
GZ had a gun and weighs, I believe, twice as much as Trayvon at least. Maybe even three times as much. Trayvon was unarmed. Who exactly was going to have great bodily harm done to them here? How could GZ be afraid of great bodily harm when he was the only one armed and weighs a lot more than the boy he is chasing? He initiated this. Even if Trayvon mouthed back, GZ still weighs more and has a GUN. Claiming self defense is ludicrous here. There is no way that GZ was in fear of great bodily harm. I just don't see it.

The only person afraid of great bodily harm was Trayvon, which is why he fought back to protect himself!

I believe you have the weights WAY wrong, LOL. According to reports Trayvon weighed 160 and GZ's was not listed but for him to be twice as much as TM that would put him at 320 lbs and three times as much at 480 lbs, have you seen the police video of GZ walking into the station? No way he weighed 320 to 480 lbs. jmo, imo and all that jazz

JeannaT
04-05-2012, 10:04 AM
Quoting myself because something else just occurred to me. So GZ didn't shoot Trayvon until after Trayvon jumped him and started beating him. Why didn't he shoot him BEFORE he jumped him? Wouldn't he have been afraid of great bodily harm with Trayvon coming at him? Why wasn't he afraid until after Trayvon was beating him? I'm basing this on GZ's description of the events, btw.

It just seems odd that an armed man that weighs twice as much as a non-violent teenage boy he was chasing was pushed down and beat on before shooting the boy. Something doesn't seem right with that. It seems to me GZ knew he wouldn't get away with it unless Trayvon beat on him a bit first. He couldn't claim self defense and stand your ground if he didn't have any wounds. Maybe this sounds all conspiracy theorist, but I think he antagonized Trayvon, let Trayvon beat him up a bit, and then shot him. The events just don't make sense to me otherwise.

THAT would have been murder. To shoot someone you are in a verbal argument with is murder. To shoot someone who is pounding your head into the concrete is self-defense.

In a verbal altercation, GZ would have no reason to fear for his life. A yelling match between two men isn't cause for shooting.

LambChop
04-05-2012, 10:05 AM
Would this be the meeting that the SA denies attending, the one that he became extremely belligerent over?



~jmo~

I think the SA denies meeting with the Chief, who is on administrative leave. It appears the SA is trying to distance himself from having any contact with the Chief. But why? Did the Chief meet with RZ before they decided not to charge GZ? I would think George would have called his father as soon as he was given permission to use a phone. And we do know RZ was at the police station, we just don't know what time he arrived. jmo

cityslick
04-05-2012, 10:06 AM
That's what we have heard...but GZ said he did. So did GZ lie about him running to make his story better? Or did TM say that trying to sound brave and then take off running?

IDK, that's the problem with trying to match these things up when we don't even have the full context of the TM phone conversation. Did the GF notice him running? Was he out of breath when he was talking to her (that he had been running)? Did he really sound scared or was trying to act tough?

LiveLaughLuv
04-05-2012, 10:06 AM
Thanks LLL. That was a great article and one that I agree with a million times over. I wonder where Zimmerman Sr. was at when Zimmerman was outside spraying down "bullies" with the water hose? Why didn't he bother to correct his son's behavior then? If he had held Zimmerman accountable for his actions through the years, then perhaps Trayvon would be alive today though considering the destructive path in which Zimmerman was allowed to continue, to do as he pleased without fear of punishment, I feel certain if it hadn't been Trayvon, it would have been some other child at some point, perhaps the little 7-9 kids that he called and reported to 911?


~jmo~

You are welcome, Adrienne...just a few more days to go to see what The Grand Jury does and ACory...

Justice for Trayvon Martin....

tlcya
04-05-2012, 10:07 AM
The first layer, of course, is the crime story: What actually happened between high school student Trayvon Martin and neighborhood watchman George Zimmerman on that fateful February night in Sanford, Florida? Who attacked whom first?

The second layer is the law enforcement story: What did the cops know, how thoroughly did they investigate and why didn't they arrest Zimmerman?

The third is the legal story: What is the "stand your ground' law? Did it apply in this case and should it exist at all?

The fourth layer is the media story: Why did so many news organizations fail to cover the story for so long and was there a rush to judgment once they did?

The fifth is a family story: What if this had happened to your child? Should you tell your kids to stop wearing hoodies?

And then, of course, there is the race story: Was the dead teenager suspected and trailed just because he was black? What does it mean that the man who shot him was Hispanic? How much racial baggage has everyone brought to everything that has happened since: the protests, the calls for investigations and hearings, the celebrity videos, the opinion columns and TV commentaries on all sides?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/29/opinion/whitaker-in-depth-martin/index.html?hpt=ju_bn1

Footwarrior
04-05-2012, 10:07 AM
They'll have to check to see if the time sources are/were synchronized. I only mention this because, in my house, the iMac, iPad, iPhone and cable box—which are all supposed to be "accurate" time keepers—are off by several minutes. It's very frustrating and I haven't been able to figure out why because in theory they should all be synching to the same EDT master clock (or at least that's what I think they should be doing).

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

The T-Mobile bill was rounded to the nearest minute. The cell phone system records that bill was based on will have call start and end times accurate to the nearest second. If the investigators are on the ball, they will have requested these records.

As for your iPhone and iPad times, go to Settings, General, Date & Time and check that the Time Zone is correct and Set Automatically is On.

Aedrys
04-05-2012, 10:08 AM
He could have been killed, actually. People die in fist fights all the time.

BTW, GZ didn't outweigh Trayvon by 100 pounds. Trayvon weighed approx. 160, and looking at the video in the police station, that man is NOT 260 pounds. I read a blog, on MSM, with the misconceptions in this case and that's a glaring one.

If I had to back one of these two in a fight, it would be Trayvon 100%

Why? There is nothing to suggest that Trayvon was a violent individual or knew how to fight. All we have is GZ claiming that Trayvon beat him. So what is the basis for saying that Trayvon is a better fighter? I think a paranoid man who chases people with guns is more dangerous than a non-violent youth who is unarmed. There is also nothing to suggest that GZ doesn't know how to fight. Of the two, GZ has been far more aggressive and violent in his past. I'd bet on him being the better fighter. Size and height doesn't always determine who is the better fighter, IMO.

cityslick
04-05-2012, 10:08 AM
It's been reported in numerous articles, numerous, that Trayvon weighed was 6 feet 3 and 240 lbs. We know from Zimmerman's 2005 mugshot that he weighed 250-260. The only person we have who states Zimmerman was no longer that heavy is his "uncle" Joe Oliver and to me, his word ain't worth the paper it's written on.



~Jmo~

The LE report has GZ under 200lbs.

LambChop
04-05-2012, 10:10 AM
http://nation.foxnews.com/george-zimmerman/2012/04/05/zimmermans-father-speaks-out-hannity

UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: Which way is he running?

ZIMMERMAN: Down towards the other entrance of the neighborhood.

UNIDENTIFIED DISPATCHER: OK, which entrance is that that he's heading towards?

ZIMMERMAN: The back entrance --

Still no proof he was running and TM certainly was not found by the back gate. He was no where near it. jmo

mercuriod
04-05-2012, 10:11 AM
The LE report has GZ under 200lbs.

The LE report also has TM at 160 lbs.

cityslick
04-05-2012, 10:11 AM
Why? There is nothing to suggest that Trayvon was a violent individual or knew how to fight. All we have is GZ claiming that Trayvon beat him. So what is the basis for saying that Trayvon is a better fighter? I think a paranoid man who chases people with guns is more dangerous than a non-violent youth who is unarmed. There is also nothing to suggest that GZ doesn't know how to fight. Of the two, GZ has been far more aggressive and violent in his past. I'd bet on him being the better fighter. Size and height doesn't always determine who is the better fighter, IMO.

I disagree, someone who is paranoid and wants to be LE, wants to be a person of authority, actually is probably very afraid when it comes to confrontation. Usually when you act like you are trying to be something you are not, you are covering up a deficiency or a fear. Hiding behind a persona.

Aedrys
04-05-2012, 10:11 AM
THAT would have been murder. To shoot someone you are in a verbal argument with is murder. To shoot someone who is pounding your head into the concrete is self-defense.

In a verbal altercation, GZ would have no reason to fear for his life. A yelling match between two men isn't cause for shooting.

BBM. My point is proven. I wasn't talking about the verbal altercation part of it, btw. I was talking about GZ saying that Travyon came at him. That isn't standing there and yelling. That's someone coming into GZ's face and threatening him. But he didn't shoot him until after somehow Trayvon knocked GZ down and started beating him, the point when GZ could claim stand your ground. It's something to think about.

LambChop
04-05-2012, 10:12 AM
Why? There is nothing to suggest that Trayvon was a violent individual or knew how to fight. All we have is GZ claiming that Trayvon beat him. So what is the basis for saying that Trayvon is a better fighter? I think a paranoid man who chases people with guns is more dangerous than a non-violent youth who is unarmed. There is also nothing to suggest that GZ doesn't know how to fight. Of the two, GZ has been far more aggressive and violent in his past. I'd bet on him being the better fighter. Size and height doesn't always determine who is the better fighter, IMO.

GZ worked as a bouncer. He knows how to handle people in a fight. jmo

nao
04-05-2012, 10:12 AM
GZ new TM was a teenager, would GZ of followed an adult - don't think so-GZ let his ego rule - thats why he would not be a good cop.

Aedrys
04-05-2012, 10:13 AM
I believe you have the weights WAY wrong, LOL. According to reports Trayvon weighed 160 and GZ's was not listed but for him to be twice as much as TM that would put him at 320 lbs and three times as much at 480 lbs, have you seen the police video of GZ walking into the station? No way he weighed 320 to 480 lbs. jmo, imo and all that jazz

Sorry about that. I changed the wording in my posts after that one. For some reason I thought Trayvon was lighter than one sixty, and GZ never looked all that skinny to me. But I hadn't seen the reports either. I was going just on what I saw.

Velouria
04-05-2012, 10:16 AM
Yes. The lead investigator believed this was a case where charges should be filed.

I think that happens a lot - LE goes to the prosecutor, and the prosecutor refuses to press charges because they can't win in court with the evidence so far.

It's common, and I don't think there's anything shady or underhanded about it. Cops believe a crime was committed, the prosecutor believes there's not enough evidence.

Which is likely why the Martin family and many others have questioned the actions, or rather INaction, of SA Wolfinger that night.

The prosecutor's job is to pursue charges when there is evidence sufficient to support that a crime has been committed.

When the State Attorney’s Office receives a formal complaint from a law enforcement agency, an Assistant State Attorney, assigned to the case, will review the reports and may interview witnesses. It is important to cooperate with this office to ensure that all the information about the crime is provided.

This review of the case will determine if there is sufficient evidence to pursue criminal prosecution, and if so, the attorney will file the formal charging document, called an "Information" with the court. You will be notified by letter of this decision.
http://sao.co.sarasota.fl.us/legal.htm

Whether a prosecutor can "win a case in court" is not the standard he is required to follow, according to Florida law, as well as the law of pretty much every jurisdiction I'm aware of.

Elley Mae
04-05-2012, 10:17 AM
The first layer, of course, is the crime story: What actually happened between high school student Trayvon Martin and neighborhood watchman George Zimmerman on that fateful February night in Sanford, Florida? Who attacked whom first?
The second layer is the law enforcement story: What did the cops know, how thoroughly did they investigate and why didn't they arrest Zimmerman?

The third is the legal story: What is the "stand your ground' law? Did it apply in this case and should it exist at all?

The fourth layer is the media story: Why did so many news organizations fail to cover the story for so long and was there a rush to judgment once they did?

The fifth is a family story: What if this had happened to your child? Should you tell your kids to stop wearing hoodies?

And then, of course, there is the race story: Was the dead teenager suspected and trailed just because he was black? What does it mean that the man who shot him was Hispanic? How much racial baggage has everyone brought to everything that has happened since: the protests, the calls for investigations and hearings, the celebrity videos, the opinion columns and TV commentaries on all sides?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/29/opinion/whitaker-in-depth-martin/index.html?hpt=ju_bn1

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/subindex/news/trayvon_martin

If you read the articles here from the beginning you will be able to determine for your self if the ball was dropped. I truly don't see that, jmo but what I see was that at some time early on in the case another jmo journalist ran with it as being prematurely dismissed because of race and then the train wreck began.

Wise Old Owl
04-05-2012, 10:17 AM
I still can't get past GZ's story about TM jumping him from behind. For the life of me, I can't figure out how someone that jumps you from behind manages to punch you in the face breaking your nose. :waitasec:




JMHO

Aedrys
04-05-2012, 10:20 AM
I still can't get past GZ's story about TM jumping him from behind. For the life of me, I can't figure out how someone that jumps you from behind manages to punch you in the face breaking your nose. :waitasec:




JMHO

That does not make sense. The whole fight aspect makes no sense. This is what bothers me the most. I think GZ is lying about it.

LambChop
04-05-2012, 10:23 AM
IDK, that's the problem with trying to match these things up when we don't even have the full context of the TM phone conversation. Did the GF notice him running? Was he out of breath when he was talking to her (that he had been running)? Did he really sound scared or was trying to act tough?

Two people did not know what GZ was telling LE, TM and his GF. She is telling him to run because she can hear him an apparently he is not running. We can clearly hear GZ running on the tape. TM said he would walk fast. So did GZ tell LE TM was running because he could not keep up with TM and had to start to run to do so and that why he said, he's running. GZ did not want to lose sight of TM, but I believe it was GZ that was running because he thought TM was getting away. jmo

LambChop
04-05-2012, 10:24 AM
That does not make sense. The whole fight aspect makes no sense. This is what bothers me the most. I think GZ is lying about it.

It depends on which version you want to believe. There is a multiple choice listing. jmo

Velouria
04-05-2012, 10:26 AM
It depends on which version you want to believe. There is a multiple choice listing. jmo

And in some ways, a Rorschach test. :)

grandmaj
04-05-2012, 10:26 AM
Smith later wrote: "Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject, and he was still armed. ... Located on the inside of Zimmerman's waist band, I removed a black Kel Tek 9mm PF9 semiauto handgun and holster. While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground.

http://www.freep.com/article/C4/20120405/NEWS07/204050441/Night-of-Trayvon-Martin-s-killing-filled-with-conflicting-reports?odyssey=nav|head

If Trayvon was on top of Mr. Zimmerman how did he get the gun out of the holster that was on the inside of his waistband?

Elley Mae
04-05-2012, 10:27 AM
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/trayvon_martin/040412-george-zimmerman-decision-coming-soon

A decision could come in the next few days on George Zimmerman's fate. The state prosecutor is close to finishing up with her investigation.

belle3
04-05-2012, 10:31 AM
It is my opinion that gz had the gun out as he was looking for tm. When he caught up with him and tm saw the gun the ensuing altercation happened. Something struck me as odd when gz father seemed to go out of his way to talk about tm going for his cellphone then after tm supposedly says gz you are gonna die, then he pulls out gun and shoots? CYa, imo. It is a crime to pull out your weapon unless it your intent to use it. If it can be proven that at any time gz pulled out his gun, before the altercation, that is, imo, a felony. And since, he was breaking the law at that point, his self defense stand would not be applicable. That is my understanding and my interpretation of what could be going on. all imo!!!

rotterdam
04-05-2012, 10:32 AM
GZ had a gun and weighs, I believe, twice as much as Trayvon at least. Maybe even three times as much. Trayvon was unarmed. Who exactly was going to have great bodily harm done to them here? How could GZ be afraid of great bodily harm when he was the only one armed and weighs a lot more than the boy he is chasing? He initiated this. Even if Trayvon mouthed back, GZ still weighs more and has a GUN. Claiming self defense is ludicrous here. There is no way that GZ was in fear of great bodily harm. I just don't see it.

The only person afraid of great bodily harm was Trayvon, which is why he fought back to protect himself!

And do not forget GZ's claim that it was him who yelled for help but nobody came. How long after the help scream did the shot rang out. About 1 second?

Elley Mae
04-05-2012, 10:32 AM
Smith later wrote: "Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject, and he was still armed. ... Located on the inside of Zimmerman's waist band, I removed a black Kel Tek 9mm PF9 semiauto handgun and holster. While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground.

http://www.freep.com/article/C4/20120405/NEWS07/204050441/Night-of-Trayvon-Martin-s-killing-filled-with-conflicting-reports?odyssey=nav|head

If Trayvon was on top of Mr. Zimmerman how did he get the gun out of the holster that was on the inside of his waistband?

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#1phfmgcu4

"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John

"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

LambChop
04-05-2012, 10:35 AM
If TM attacked GZ from the back why wouldn't he have flipped him over his back. He was a bouncer and had to have had some training in self defense. In my way younger days I'd been flipped a couple of times for sneaking up on hubby from behind but with a soft landing. Even with a soft landing, it knocks the wind out of you and gives the "flipper" the advantage.

However, if GZ were to grab and try to keep TM from leaving until LE arrived he could have very well fallen backwards with TM on top. It's possible. jmo

Gin
04-05-2012, 10:35 AM
I still can't get past GZ's story about TM jumping him from behind. For the life of me, I can't figure out how someone that jumps you from behind manages to punch you in the face breaking your nose. :waitasec:




JMHO
Whether the story is told by GZ's attorneys or other surrogates, many aspects of his actions that night don't add up. This is why it's so important he's arrested and brought to trial.

Concerned Papa
04-05-2012, 10:36 AM
No. As far as I know, you've got everything right up til the last statement. I think time clocks are not accurate here. What the GF has clearly said is that the moment a physical altercation began, the phone went dead. So no, he wasn't on the phone during the scuffle. He was on the phone up until the moment the scuffle began. She heard the verbal exchange, initiated by Trayvon, and then didn't hear anything after what appeared to sound like a shove.

You could be right, IDK. I haven't paid a lot of attention to her statements. What caught my eye was an article early this morning where ABC had the phone logs for this final call that was made at 7:12 pm and ended at 7:16 pm plus possibly some seconds between 7:16 and 7:17.

I'm not sure when this alleged beating took place or how long it lasted, but seems to me GZ's trying to say he was getting beat up while TM was talking on the phone with his girlfriend.

The one thing we can be certain of is that at 7:16:41 pm, it was all over.

belle3
04-05-2012, 10:42 AM
http://nation.foxnews.com/george-zimmerman/2012/04/05/zimmermans-father-speaks-out-hannity
Zimmerman's Father Speaks Out on 'Hannity'

LambChop
04-05-2012, 10:43 AM
Smith later wrote: "Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject, and he was still armed. ... Located on the inside of Zimmerman's waist band, I removed a black Kel Tek 9mm PF9 semiauto handgun and holster. While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground.

http://www.freep.com/article/C4/20120405/NEWS07/204050441/Night-of-Trayvon-Martin-s-killing-filled-with-conflicting-reports?odyssey=nav|head

If Trayvon was on top of Mr. Zimmerman how did he get the gun out of the holster that was on the inside of his waistband?

From the family description of TM and the fact that we know from the conversation with the gf, TM wanted to get away from this man that he did not know. It's possible TM was still trying to get away while they were struggling and may have tried to stand up giving GZ free access to his gun. I think that is why we hear the pleading cries on the 911 tape. GZ had his gun out already and was getting ready to shoot him and TM knew what was coming because GZ was holding onto him. That would also explain why TM landed face down. If he had gotten part way up and was pulling GZ up with him, GZ still would be shooting him at close range. TM grabs his chest, turns and then falls face first onto the ground.

I do hope TM's family hire an expert to reconstruct the crime because it can be done. jmo

Adrienne37
04-05-2012, 10:48 AM
http://nation.foxnews.com/george-zimmerman/2012/04/05/zimmermans-father-speaks-out-hannity
Zimmerman's Father Speaks Out on 'Hannity'

Thanks Belle. I see Zimmerman Sr. is still cloaked in secrecy. I didn't even bother to watch the interview, I can't stand to hear any more of this family's mistruths. I made it through 2 paragraphs of the transcript and quit reading because yet again it's obvious to me that this family and the truth are strangers (wonder where that came from).

~jmo~

tehcloser
04-05-2012, 10:49 AM
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#1phfmgcu4

"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John
"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

So "John" sees this "fight" and GZ on the bottom yelling for help....and instead of "helping", he tells him to "STOP" and that he's calling 911.

Now, why would you tell the guy on the BOTTOM who was yelling for help to stop? That does not make sense.

suzihawk
04-05-2012, 10:51 AM
Yes. The lead investigator believed this was a case where charges should be filed.

I think that happens a lot - LE goes to the prosecutor, and the prosecutor refuses to press charges because they can't win in court with the evidence so far.

It's common, and I don't think there's anything shady or underhanded about it. Cops believe a crime was committed, the prosecutor believes there's not enough evidence.

Except, in this particular case it was the other way around. The prosecutor went to LE - on a rainy Sunday evening. Very unusal and not SOP, IMO. I think there's something very shady and underhanded about it.

MOO

gator
04-05-2012, 10:51 AM
It is my opinion that gz had the gun out as he was looking for tm. When he caught up with him and tm saw the gun the ensuing altercation happened. Something struck me as odd when gz father seemed to go out of his way to talk about tm going for his cellphone then after tm supposedly says gz you are gonna die, then he pulls out gun and shoots? CYa, imo. It is a crime to pull out your weapon unless it your intent to use it. If it can be proven that at any time gz pulled out his gun, before the altercation, that is, imo, a felony. And since, he was breaking the law at that point, his self defense stand would not be applicable. That is my understanding and my interpretation of what could be going on. all imo!!!

I think this is a really good point. To me, the screams on the 911 tapes sound like someone who is absolutely terrified. Like someone who is looking down the barrel of a gun for 41 seconds, not just in a "scuffle."

JMO.

rbrnmw2
04-05-2012, 10:55 AM
IMO going off of the known timeline TM simply didn't have enough time to jump GZ and beat him that is JMO


Sent from my SGH-i917 using Board Express

Velouria
04-05-2012, 10:58 AM
http://nation.foxnews.com/george-zimmerman/2012/04/05/zimmermans-father-speaks-out-hannity
Zimmerman's Father Speaks Out on 'Hannity'


From the link:

ZIMMERMAN: I just believe it's very sad that so many people are not telling the truth on purpose for their own agenda.
Finally, something Robert Zimmerman and I can agree on! :great:

cityslick
04-05-2012, 10:59 AM
I think this is a really good point. To me, the screams on the 911 tapes sound like someone who is absolutely terrified. Like someone who is looking down the barrel of a gun for 41 seconds, not just in a "scuffle."

JMO.

I still think he would of said something to the GF about the gun if he saw it. He was talking up until there was a push (who pushes someone who has a gun? Who has a gun out but yet pushes, did he push with one hand while holding the gun in another?)

waltzingmatilda
04-05-2012, 11:06 AM
So "John" sees this "fight" and GZ on the bottom yelling for help....and instead of "helping", he tells him to "STOP" and that he's calling 911.

Now, why would you tell the guy on the BOTTOM who was yelling for help tp stop? That does not make sense.

I'd like to know the positions of their bodies. For instance, could they have both been on their backs with GZ on bottom while holding Tray on top while wrestling? I have assumed that they were face to face while on the ground but don't recall reading such.

The only thing I have read with specifics is that GZ was staddling Tray, who was face down on the ground after the shooting.

Just trying to think outside the box. I am waaaay behind as my computer is still :maddening:

MOO Tia, wm

morning all!

Gin
04-05-2012, 11:11 AM
I think this is a really good point. To me, the screams on the 911 tapes sound like someone who is absolutely terrified. Like someone who is looking down the barrel of a gun for 41 seconds, not just in a "scuffle."

JMO.

JMO, I agree. You are stating exactly what I think, too. I believe Trayvon was stalked and terrorized in the moments before he was murdered. His screams tell the story. My heart aches for his parents.

gator
04-05-2012, 11:12 AM
I still think he would of said something to the GF about the gun if he saw it. He was talking up until there was a push (who pushes someone who has a gun? Who has a gun out but yet pushes, did he push with one hand while holding the gun in another?)

Also a good point. But I don't think GZ pulled the gun out at the last second either. I think it was trained on TM pretty early on in the confrontation. JMO.

dsntslp
04-05-2012, 11:20 AM
Apologies if previously posted.

Independent task force examines Florida's Stand Your Ground law

http://www.cbs12.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_185.shtml

gxm
04-05-2012, 11:21 AM
Zimmerman's Arrest Should Be a Family Affair, Including His Father
Posted: 04/ 4/2012 1:30 pm


George Zimmerman, the man who instantly turned himself into public enemy number one, is an intriguing character for a multitude of reasons. When I read Zimmerman's story, he reminds me of one of my more "interesting" friends who had a similar story in his life. This person was also a wannabe police officer who lived with his parents, dropped out of college and took things way too seriously. There are few men more frightening than wannabe cops who failed the psychological tests.


more
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-boyce-watkins/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_b_1393761.html

BBM.

Has it been stated and/or confirmed that GZ failed any psychological tests? IMO, that's a huge assumption for a writer to make. Is it even true? If not, shame on Dr. Boyce Watkins for making such a slanderous implication.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Velouria
04-05-2012, 11:27 AM
BBM.

Has it been stated and/or confirmed that GZ failed any psychological tests? IMO, that's a huge assumption for a writer to make. Is it even true? If not, shame on Dr. Boyce Watkins for making such a slanderous implication.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

gxm, the author was speaking of a personal acquaintance who reminded him of GZ.

gxm
04-05-2012, 11:29 AM
Also a good point. But I don't think GZ pulled the gun out at the last second either. I think it was trained on TM pretty early on in the confrontation. JMO.

But how did they end up wrestling on the ground… was the gun out before or after the struggle on the ground?

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Gin
04-05-2012, 11:29 AM
Apologies if previously posted.

Independent task force examines Florida's Stand Your Ground law

http://www.cbs12.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_185.shtml

Interesting one of the groups that they will hear from are tourism officials.

gxm
04-05-2012, 11:31 AM
gxm, the author was speaking of a personal acquaintance who reminded him of GZ.

Yes. Thus implying that GZ has also failed the psych tests. Dirty pool IMO.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Elley Mae
04-05-2012, 11:34 AM
http://fcit.usf.edu/florida/lessons/tourism/tourism1.htm

Today, tourism is the most important factor driving Florida's economy. About forty million people visit Florida yearly. The money visitors spend in Florida supports many businesses. Amounting to over $40 billion dollars each year, tourism is the state's greatest source of income. As tourism continues to grow, so will Florida.

gxm
04-05-2012, 11:36 AM
JMO, I agree. You are stating exactly what I think, too. I believe Trayvon was stalked and terrorized in the moments before he was murdered. His screams tell the story. My heart aches for his parents.

If that's what happened that is incredibly horrific.

But I'm still trying to figure out how they ended up on the ground, was the gun out before they went down or after? IMO, based on the witness statement(s), at some point GZ was on the ground with TM over him. That's why I don't believe the gun came out until/after that point.

Either way my heart aches for his parents and for a young life cut terribly short.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Velouria
04-05-2012, 11:38 AM
Yes. Thus implying that GZ has also failed the psych tests. Dirty pool IMO.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

It is an opinion piece after all, not a straight news article. Had it been, then I could see your point.

IMO

gxm
04-05-2012, 11:39 AM
Apologies if previously posted.

Independent task force examines Florida's Stand Your Ground law

http://www.cbs12.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_185.shtml

I would love it if this law, and similar laws, was struck down. It seems to me that it gives violently confrontational people an excuse to kill someone for no good reason.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

dsntslp
04-05-2012, 11:44 AM
I have mixed feelings regarding the SYG Law.
I DO see cases where the law is being "twisted", if you will.
I sure did NOT like it when we had a duty to retreat.
JMO

Dr.Fessel
04-05-2012, 11:46 AM
So "John" sees this "fight" and GZ on the bottom yelling for help....and instead of "helping", he tells him to "STOP" and that he's calling 911.

Now, why would you tell the guy on the BOTTOM who was yelling for help to stop? That does not make sense.

and it was so light out he could see the guy on the bottom lips moving to know he was the one yelling for help but he could not see the guys face or Trayvon's hands or any part of his face to tell one was black and one was white.

Oh yeah and he saw the guy on bottom had a red sweater on which is very concerning since one of the people did have a sweater on but it was not red.

To me there appears to be a bit of tampering with that witness going on. ALL IMO

Elley Mae
04-05-2012, 11:50 AM
I don't see the SYG law and the CC permit as one in the same. When a state grants a permit for cc a person then has the right to do just that (carry the weapon concealed). Then the same state has a SYG law in place that means you are justified to defend yourself in your home. The issue is not the gun the issue is whether GZ killed TM in self defense. He could have had a knife. jmo

Inabsentia
04-05-2012, 11:51 AM
I just wanted to say that I find it extremely difficult to believe that George Zimmerman could have been getting the worst of it in a fight with Trayvon Martin. I find it extremely difficult to believe that George Martin could have been afraid of suffering great bodily harm from Trayvon Martin. I feel this so strongly for two reasons.

First, using the weights reported by both families Trayvon weighed between 140 and 145 pounds, and George Zimmerman weighed 190. Are these weights accurate? I don't know for sure, but the police report weights seem to be guesses so I am going to go with them. I suspect 190 is a little light for Zimmerman but I will go with it. These weight differences would put them 4 or 5 weight classes apart in professional boxing, and at least 4 weight classes apart in high school wrestling. The heavier fighter would never be allowed into the ring with the lighter because of the unfair advantage he would have.

Secondly, George Zimmerman is reported to have multiple years of experience as a bouncer/private security. This is not a field you survive in for months, let alone years, if you are easily frightened at the possibility of getting hit. This is not a field you last long in if you do not know how to fight, and more importantly, how to restrain someone who is trying to hurt you without hurting them. You must be able to face down and remove people who are drunk, belligerant and possibly way larger than you. I find it impossible to believe that anyone who spent years as a bouncer could be reduced to those wails of terror in less than two minutes by a skinny, unarmed kid he outweighed by forty or fifty pounds. Moo

imamaze
04-05-2012, 11:51 AM
and it was so light out he could see the guy on the bottom lips moving to know he was the one yelling for help but he could not see the guys face or Trayvon's hands or any part of his face to tell one was black and one was white.

Oh yeah and he saw the guy on bottom had a red sweater on which is very concerning since one of the people did have a sweater on but it was not red.

To me there appears to be a bit of tampering with that witness going on. ALL IMO

It could be though the difference in how witnesses describe things. For example... I wouldn't call it a sweater, I would call it a sweatshirt, my daughters call them jackets. It was dark so that could also explain the sweater discription.

Ima

Adrienne37
04-05-2012, 11:53 AM
Judge restricts protesters at Seminole courthouses...

Fearing throngs of Trayvon Martin protesters outside the Seminole Criminal courthouse, Chief Judge Alan A. Dickey has signed an order, requiring demonstrators to stay 100 feet away from the front door.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-04/news/os-trayvon-martin-protest-area-seminole-courthouse-20120404_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-protesters-courthouse

Emeralgem
04-05-2012, 11:54 AM
GZ worked as a bouncer. He knows how to handle people in a fight. jmo

I also suspect he knows exactly what to do to render someone completely helpless too.... At this time I won't elaborate any further..JMHO

Gin
04-05-2012, 11:54 AM
http://fcit.usf.edu/florida/lessons/tourism/tourism1.htm

Today, tourism is the most important factor driving Florida's economy. About forty million people visit Florida yearly. The money visitors spend in Florida supports many businesses. Amounting to over $40 billion dollars each year, tourism is the state's greatest source of income. As tourism continues to grow, so will Florida.

Years ago Florida had a fairly unsuccessful ad campaign. It was:
"Florida, the rules are different here." Maybe it's time to dust off those promos and bring them back. It might be the perfect slogan for TV Ads and flyers that warn tourists about the Stand Your Ground Law.
(If you're stopped by a stranger, comply, don't make the stranger feel threatened, yada,yada...)

Adrienne37
04-05-2012, 11:56 AM
and it was so light out he could see the guy on the bottom lips moving to know he was the one yelling for help but he could not see the guys face or Trayvon's hands or any part of his face to tell one was black and one was white.

Oh yeah and he saw the guy on bottom had a red sweater on which is very concerning since one of the people did have a sweater on but it was not red.

To me there appears to be a bit of tampering with that witness going on. ALL IMO

So "John" sees this "fight" and GZ on the bottom yelling for help....and instead of "helping", he tells him to "STOP" and that he's calling 911.

Now, why would you tell the guy on the BOTTOM who was yelling for help to stop? That does not make sense.

What in the world was the guy on bottom doing that "John" felt it prudent to tell him to stop and call 911? I can't figure out this whole story. It makes no sense to me at all.



~jmo~

Elley Mae
04-05-2012, 12:03 PM
and it was so light out he could see the guy on the bottom lips moving to know he was the one yelling for help but he could not see the guys face or Trayvon's hands or any part of his face to tell one was black and one was white.

Oh yeah and he saw the guy on bottom had a red sweater on which is very concerning since one of the people did have a sweater on but it was not red.

To me there appears to be a bit of tampering with that witness going on. ALL IMO

http://www.sunrisesunset.com/calendar.asp?comb_city_info=Sanford%2C%20Florida%2 C%20USA;81.2757;28.7893;-5;1&month=2&year=2012&time_type=0&back=Search&want_mphase=1&want_info=1&wadj=1

6:22 sunset

iirc DNR uses the 30 minute rule for dark. So sunset to dark would be 6:58

LambChop
04-05-2012, 12:04 PM
I also suspect he knows exactly what to do to render someone completely helpless too.... At this time I won't elaborate any further..JMHO

Wouldn't it have been much easier to do that then to use the gun???? jmo

CathyinTexas
04-05-2012, 12:06 PM
It depends on which version you want to believe. There is a multiple choice listing. jmo

But none of them will be allowed in court. All of it is hearsay and GZ can get up on the stand and say whatever he wants without accountability for the different stories he told, except for the police report. Did he say he was attacked from behind on the police report?

chefmom
04-05-2012, 12:07 PM
I just wanted to say that I find it extremely difficult to believe that George Zimmerman could have been getting the worst of it in a fight with Trayvon Martin. I find it extremely difficult to believe that George Martin could have been afraid of suffering great bodily harm from Trayvon Martin. I feel this so strongly for two reasons.

First, using the weights reported by both families Trayvon weighed between 140 and 145 pounds, and George Zimmerman weighed 190. Are these weights accurate? I don't know for sure, but the police report weights seem to be guesses so I am going to go with them. I suspect 190 is a little light for Zimmerman but I will go with it. These weight differences would put them 4 or 5 weight classes apart in professional boxing, and at least 4 weight classes apart in high school wrestling. The heavier fighter would never be allowed into the ring with the lighter because of the unfair advantage he would have.

Secondly, George Zimmerman is reported to have multiple years of experience as a bouncer/private security. This is not a field you survive in for months, let alone years, if you are easily frightened at the possibility of getting hit. This is not a field you last long in if you do not know how to fight, and more importantly, how to restrain someone who is trying to hurt you without hurting them. You must be able to face down and remove people who are drunk, belligerant and possibly way larger than you. I find it impossible to believe that anyone who spent years as a bouncer could be reduced to those wails of terror in less than two minutes by a skinny, unarmed kid he outweighed by forty or fifty pounds. Moo

Excellent points! JMO

:rocker:

Velouria
04-05-2012, 12:07 PM
What in the world was the guy on bottom doing that "John" felt it prudent to tell him to stop and call 911? I can't figure out this whole story. It makes no sense to me at all.



~jmo~

"Hey you over there! Stop getting your head beat against the pavement! I'm going upstairs to call 911!"

Yeah, I don't get it, either.

Elley Mae
04-05-2012, 12:08 PM
But none of them will be allowed in court. All of it is hearsay and GZ can get up on the stand and say whatever he wants without accountability for the different stories he told, except for the police report. Did he say he was attacked from behind on the police report?

I was unaware that he spoke. What different stories?

rbrnmw2
04-05-2012, 12:09 PM
What in the world was the guy on bottom doing that "John" felt it prudent to tell him to stop and call 911? I can't figure out this whole story. It makes no sense to me at all.



~jmo~

Who is this John person who won't show his face and where is his 911 call? IMO.

Sent from my Huawei U8800-51 using Tapatalk

gxm
04-05-2012, 12:09 PM
and it was so light out he could see the guy on the bottom lips moving to know he was the one yelling for help but he could not see the guys face or Trayvon's hands or any part of his face to tell one was black and one was white.

Oh yeah and he saw the guy on bottom had a red sweater on which is very concerning since one of the people did have a sweater on but it was not red.

To me there appears to be a bit of tampering with that witness going on. ALL IMO

Given that it was dark, I think the eye witness accounts will be very problematic. Which is one of the reasons that I think we'll never really know the full story.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Dr.Fessel
04-05-2012, 12:09 PM
http://www.sunrisesunset.com/calendar.asp?comb_city_info=Sanford%2C%20Florida%2 C%20USA;81.2757;28.7893;-5;1&month=2&year=2012&time_type=0&back=Search&want_mphase=1&want_info=1&wadj=1

6:22 sunset

iirc DNR uses the 30 minute rule for dark. So sunset to dark would be 6:58

Right, I was being facetious on the light. Just trying to figure out how it could be so dark the guy could not tell one person was black and the other person was white, he mistook the coat Zimmerman was wearing for a sweater but was able to see Zimmerman's mouth moving to know he was yelling.

LambChop
04-05-2012, 12:12 PM
and it was so light out he could see the guy on the bottom lips moving to know he was the one yelling for help but he could not see the guys face or Trayvon's hands or any part of his face to tell one was black and one was white.

Oh yeah and he saw the guy on bottom had a red sweater on which is very concerning since one of the people did have a sweater on but it was not red.

To me there appears to be a bit of tampering with that witness going on. ALL IMO

Sometimes when people are in fear themselves, for their lives, their fear distorts what they think they see or hear. Not saying he was not correct but he appeared to be fearful by going right to his back door and locking it behind him and then running upstairs while then calling 911. I think I would have called 911 right there unless he had no cell phone with him, which is possible. jmo

gxm
04-05-2012, 12:13 PM
What in the world was the guy on bottom doing that "John" felt it prudent to tell him to stop and call 911? I can't figure out this whole story. It makes no sense to me at all.



~jmo~

Yes. I've wondered if he wasn't yelling at them to stop the fighting because he was calling 911.

(I have on two occasions stopped an aggressive driver by merely holding up my phone to show that I'm about to call the authorities.)

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

LambChop
04-05-2012, 12:14 PM
Right, I was being facetious on the light. Just trying to figure out how it could be so dark the guy could not tell one person was black and the other person was white, he mistook the coat Zimmerman was wearing for a sweater but was able to see Zimmerman's mouth moving to know he was yelling.

I think this man was more concerned about making it to his back door and safety than he was about the actual fight. I doubt he hardly looked at them. jmo

vlpate
04-05-2012, 12:15 PM
Where is this coming from? Something your watching on TV?

Yes, Wolf Bitzer/CNN. Supposed to show again today.

Gin
04-05-2012, 12:16 PM
Given that it was dark, I think the eye witness accounts will be very problematic. Which is one of the reasons that I think we'll never really know the full story.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Forensics will be a big help.
Good light, bad light, eyewitness accounts are often surprisingly inaccurate.

LambChop
04-05-2012, 12:18 PM
But none of them will be allowed in court. All of it is hearsay and GZ can get up on the stand and say whatever he wants without accountability for the different stories he told, except for the police report. Did he say he was attacked from behind on the police report?

They aren't hearsay if GZ told his father and Mr. Oliver directly. Hearsay would apply to Mr. Taaffe because he has not talked with GZ. jmo

CathyinTexas
04-05-2012, 12:21 PM
Smith later wrote: "Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject, and he was still armed. ... Located on the inside of Zimmerman's waist band, I removed a black Kel Tek 9mm PF9 semiauto handgun and holster. While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground.

http://www.freep.com/article/C4/20120405/NEWS07/204050441/Night-of-Trayvon-Martin-s-killing-filled-with-conflicting-reports?odyssey=nav|head

If Trayvon was on top of Mr. Zimmerman how did he get the gun out of the holster that was on the inside of his waistband?

I wonder if we will ever know if Trayvon's back was wet and grassy? I would assume that when two men wrestle or scuffle they would both be on the ground at some point. I believe that Trayvon saw the gun before they scuffled. I also wonder if GZ will ever be able to live a normal life even if he isn't charge?

LambChop
04-05-2012, 12:23 PM
I don't see the SYG law and the CC permit as one in the same. When a state grants a permit for cc a person then has the right to do just that (carry the weapon concealed). Then the same state has a SYG law in place that means you are justified to defend yourself in your home. The issue is not the gun the issue is whether GZ killed TM in self defense. He could have had a knife. jmo

And he could have had a gun, anyone could have had a gun, or a knife and that is why LE does not want you to take matters into your own hands. There was no mistake on GZ's part, he knew better. jmo

Dr.Fessel
04-05-2012, 12:23 PM
They aren't hearsay if GZ told his father and Mr. Oliver directly. Hearsay would apply to Mr. Taaffe because he has not talked with GZ. jmo

Right, the SA can use as evidence any statements George's supporters have made on tv where they say " George told me this or George told me that". They can put them on the stand and play the statements.

CathyinTexas
04-05-2012, 12:25 PM
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#1phfmgcu4

"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John

"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

They say eye witness testimony is not reliable. I think it has been proven. Now if a number of witnesses said the same thing, it would be more reliable, imo. Also, didn't this same witness say he heard arguing? That doesn't support other testimony or what we heard on the 911 call.

csziggy
04-05-2012, 12:26 PM
Do we even know there were two ambulances called? GZ was treated in the back of the patrol car by SFD. They sometimes arrive in a van. Could there have only been one ambulance called that was cancelled? If there were an ambulance there why wouldn't the EMT have treated GZ in the ambulance??? The only one I heard say they cancelled the second ambulance was Mr. Taaffe. Anyone know for sure???? jmo

Ambulance info from this article:

Ambulance called for George Zimmerman canceled, dispatch recordings say
April 2, 2012 11:14 AM
(CBS/WKMG) SANFORD, Fla. - Newly released fire rescue dispatch recordings from the night 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed reveal that a second ambulance - presumably to tend to George Zimmerman - was canceled before it arrived at the scene of the shooting.

"Do they have a second patient?" a person says on the recording. "That's affirmative, there's a second patient."

"You can cancel the second rescue" the rescue worker says," adding that the second patient, Zimmerman, didn't have a gunshot wound.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57408040-504083/ambulance-called-for-george-zimmerman-canceled-dispatch-recordings-say/

frenchvixen
04-05-2012, 12:26 PM
What in the world was the guy on bottom doing that "John" felt it prudent to tell him to stop and call 911? I can't figure out this whole story. It makes no sense to me at all.



~jmo~

There was an interview on MSNBC with the teenage boy <modsnip> whose dog had ran off the leash just as he was about to see what the screaming was about. His mother said that the cops came to her home and they were pretty much poaching the child on what to say. The mom said that it made her uncomfortable b/c they should have just asked him and waited for him to answer. Instead they would say things like, "was the shirt a red shirt?" and Austin would answer them "yes or no". I believe this is what has happened here. This would explain why the eyewitnesses have a different account than what the 911 tapes suggests. TM was screaming for help not GZ.

CathyinTexas
04-05-2012, 12:27 PM
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#1phfmgcu4

"The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John

"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

I have another question, it was dark, people couldn't see any detail. How can he know that it was the "guy in the red sweater" yelling help?

LambChop
04-05-2012, 12:28 PM
The unarmed dead person with a gunshot wound and the weapon in GZ's possession don't count as probable cause?

But what evidence shows that lead up to the incident can. jmo

HMSHood
04-05-2012, 12:29 PM
Zimmerman's 911 call: Audio enhanced again - YouTube

Elley Mae
04-05-2012, 12:30 PM
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/ph98.pdf

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/decisions/2010/sc09-332.pdf

http://law.justia.com/codes/florida/2005/TitleXLVI/ch0782.html

Looks like this could be a confusing case even for the experts' jmo

CathyinTexas
04-05-2012, 12:31 PM
BBM.

Has it been stated and/or confirmed that GZ failed any psychological tests? IMO, that's a huge assumption for a writer to make. Is it even true? If not, shame on Dr. Boyce Watkins for making such a slanderous implication.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

We know he filled out an application of some kind where he stated he wanted to be and planned to be a law enforcement officer. So why wasn't he? What kept him from becoming a police officer?

Dr.Fessel
04-05-2012, 12:31 PM
I wonder if we will ever know if Trayvon's back was wet and grassy? I would assume that when two men wrestle or scuffle they would both be on the ground at some point. I believe that Trayvon saw the gun before they scuffled. I also wonder if GZ will ever be able to live a normal life even if he isn't charge?

That is a great question and I doubt it. Officer Smith knew it was so important in the case to note at the scene that Zimmerman's back was grassy and wet and later write it in a report but he did not think it was important enough to note whether or not Trayvon's back was wet and grassy. The officer who turned Trayvon onto his back did not note in his report if Trayvon's back was grassy or wet either. Once they turned him over to give CPR any evidence was gone.

It was kind of like Officer Smith had selective psychic abilities of what was important. All IMO



Police report. http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf

LambChop
04-05-2012, 12:32 PM
We know he filled out an application of some kind where he stated he wanted to be and planned to be a law enforcement officer. So why wasn't he? What kept him from becoming a police officer?

He wasn't "squeeky clean". jmo

Elley Mae
04-05-2012, 12:37 PM
For the life of me I do not hear a racial slur.

suspicious1
04-05-2012, 12:38 PM
So "John" sees this "fight" and GZ on the bottom yelling for help....and instead of "helping", he tells him to "STOP" and that he's calling 911.

Now, why would you tell the guy on the BOTTOM who was yelling for help to stop? That does not make sense.

It doesn't make sense to me either unless..

This witness did see GZ on the bottom calling for help but he also saw that the man on the bottom had a gun drawn. He ordered him to stop and let him know that he was going to call911. Within seconds later Tray was shot dead.

So I'm wondering if this witness saw GZ with the gun in his hand?

Gin
04-05-2012, 12:38 PM
Right, the SA can use as evidence any statements George's supporters have made on tv where they say " George told me this or George told me that". They can put them on the stand and play the statements.


Do these same rules apply if the statement is made in "secret squirrel" mode..ie..face obscured or hidden? I'm just wondering if this is being used by GZ supporter(s) to avoid any statements coming back for use in court, rather than "privacy" issues.

Dr.Fessel
04-05-2012, 12:40 PM
The SA met with the investigators and determined there wasn't enough evidence to prove a case in court. As I recall this occurred about 3 a.m.

And Officer Smith filed his report at 3:29.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf

mercuriod
04-05-2012, 12:41 PM
I just wanted to say that I find it extremely difficult to believe that George Zimmerman could have been getting the worst of it in a fight with Trayvon Martin. I find it extremely difficult to believe that George Martin could have been afraid of suffering great bodily harm from Trayvon Martin. I feel this so strongly for two reasons.

First, using the weights reported by both families Trayvon weighed between 140 and 145 pounds, and George Zimmerman weighed 190. Are these weights accurate? I don't know for sure, but the police report weights seem to be guesses so I am going to go with them. I suspect 190 is a little light for Zimmerman but I will go with it. These weight differences would put them 4 or 5 weight classes apart in professional boxing, and at least 4 weight classes apart in high school wrestling. The heavier fighter would never be allowed into the ring with the lighter because of the unfair advantage he would have.

Secondly, George Zimmerman is reported to have multiple years of experience as a bouncer/private security. This is not a field you survive in for months, let alone years, if you are easily frightened at the possibility of getting hit. This is not a field you last long in if you do not know how to fight, and more importantly, how to restrain someone who is trying to hurt you without hurting them. You must be able to face down and remove people who are drunk, belligerant and possibly way larger than you. I find it impossible to believe that anyone who spent years as a bouncer could be reduced to those wails of terror in less than two minutes by a skinny, unarmed kid he outweighed by forty or fifty pounds. Moo

Just bouncing off this post because it made me think of this. With all the talk (from his dad, brother, etc) of George wanting to be a police officer, does anyone know if he had even gone through the required training or was it just a pipe dream of Georges?

FDLE requirements http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/getdoc/16b5a8f6-412c-4c72-817e-d26cb05b2e3d/how-to-become-an-officer.aspx

2. Complete the Required Training pursuant to 11B-35, F.A.C.

If you are a -
New Officer or
Discipline Cross Over You must complete the following -

1. Complete the Basic Abilities Test (BAT) -

An individual must pass a Commission-approved BAT prior to entering a basic recruit training program. The BAT is available at most training schools and results are valid for four years.

2. Complete Basic Recruit or Cross Over Training –

An individual must successfully complete the Florida Basic Recruit Training Program or Cross Over Training Program for the respective discipline. Training must be completed at a Commission-Certified Training School.

Dr.Fessel
04-05-2012, 12:42 PM
Do these same rules apply if the statement is made in "secret squirrel" mode..ie..face obscured or hidden? I'm just wondering if this is being used by GZ supporter(s) to avoid any statements coming back for use in court, rather than "privacy" issues. Only with a lawyer. Everything else is fair game.

frenchvixen
04-05-2012, 12:42 PM
We know he filled out an application of some kind where he stated he wanted to be and planned to be a law enforcement officer. So why wasn't he? What kept him from becoming a police officer?

He probably knew that he could not pass the necessary tests to be a PO. He has been described as a Jekkyl and Hyde type personality. His past would back to haunt him and he knew it so he decided not to even go there. Instead he lived vicariously as a cop by being the neighborhood watchman... an <modsnip> character.. this is exactly what the police force does not need.

csziggy
04-05-2012, 12:44 PM
A T-Mobile phone log provided by the family's attorney shows Trayvon's girlfriend called him again at 7:12 p.m., just moments after they had hung up. "I think this dude is following me," Trayvon told her, according to her account.

The girl said she offered Trayvon advice: "Run!"
Trayvon did just that.

At 7:13, two minutes into Zimmerman's call, he tells the police operator: "S --, he's running."

http://www.freep.com/article/C4/20120405/NEWS07/204050441/Night-of-Trayvon-Martin-s-killing-filled-with-conflicting-reports?odyssey=nav%7Chead

That does not match the timing on the police log in the "initial police report" posted on the City of Sanford web site.

The "he's running" comment is roughly two minutes into GZ's call, but the operator at SPD at 19:11:59 entered into the log, "subj now running towards back entrance of complex".

I think some of the confusion may be that all the information the girlfriend is narrating has been attributed to the last call she had with TM. There were two earlier calls shown on the call log from ABC News - at 6:54 and at 7:04.

I think some of the events she has narrated happened during the call that began at 7:04 - TM passed GZ, saw him watching him, ducked under a porch, pulled up his hood, and ran. Maybe the call dropped while he was running, maybe when GZ (at about 7:11) saw TM's hand at his waistband and something in TM's hand, TM was disconnecting the call.

The screen captures I have of the call logs don't show the duration of the two earlier logs. From a CNN story about the girlfriend I have a section of the call log for the call that began at 7:12 that shows it was 4 minutes.

Then when the gf's call at 7:12 connects, TM tells her he ran, but he's not going to run anymore, just walk fast. I think he's talking to her, reassuring her, shooting the breeze for that four minutes until GZ comes on TM somewhere between the buildings and the call ends at 7:16

IMO, JMO, etc.

ETA - most of the media have been saying that GZ's call began at 7:10 - according to the SPD log of the call it connected at 19:09:34. That could be what is throwing their timeline off.

Elley Mae
04-05-2012, 12:45 PM
And Officer Smith filed his report at 3:29.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf

This was before TM was Id'ed?

gator
04-05-2012, 12:47 PM
But how did they end up wrestling on the ground… was the gun out before or after the struggle on the ground?

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Possibly fighting over the gun? I don't think GZ necessarily intended to kill Trayvon at the outset. I think it's likelier that he drew the gun to intimidate/detain him until LE arrived, and Trayvon (understandably) freaked out.

All speculation and JMO, of course.

Wise Old Owl
04-05-2012, 12:47 PM
This was before TM was Id'ed?
No.

We've all read how it was the next morning when TM's dad "ID'd" him.



JMHO

LambChop
04-05-2012, 12:48 PM
He probably knew that he could not pass the necessary tests to be a PO. He has been described as a Jekkyl and Hyde type personality. His past would back to haunt him and he knew it so he decided not to even go there. Instead he lived vicariously as a cop by being the neighborhood watchman... an overzealous, boderline paranoid, partially racist character.. this is exactly what the police force does not need.

Plus whatever we can see now, LE HR had access to. He couldn't even hide his bouncer job because he would have had to list it as a job. You have to be 100% honest when you apply for this type of job, so if you lie and leave something out, you don't have a chance. jmo

frenchvixen
04-05-2012, 12:48 PM
Forensics will be a big help.
Good light, bad light, eyewitness accounts are often surprisingly inaccurate.

All I can say about these eyewitness discrepancies is thank God for the 911 recordings. If it wasn't for that it would be a case of he say/she say. But the 911 calls puts things in perspective. GZ says he was screaming and so does eyewitnesses but the 911 calls do not show this. GZ says that TM attacked him but the 911 calls show that. After the puzzle is put together in a timeline using the 911 calls we will see that TM most likely lost his nerve and felt the need to defend himself from a stalker and used the SYG laws to do so and GZ overpowered him and shot him. This is what I believed happened.

Concerned Papa
04-05-2012, 12:48 PM
The Grand Jury is set to convene next Tuesday, 4/10. It wouldn't surprise me too much if GZ gets arrested and charged before then.

If this girlfriend testifies to hearing TM say "why are you following me?" during a phone call that apparently can be documented as ending within seconds of TM being shot....

It the Grand Jury hears the 911 screams and the gunshot that killed TM....

If they hear a nationally recognized audio expert state with reasonable scientific certainty that the screams are NOT George Zimmerman....

George should go ahead and get his toothbrush packed along with some clean underwear because he's going somewhere.

chefmom
04-05-2012, 12:49 PM
Zimmerman's 911 call: Audio enhanced again - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOt1wEDy0SI&feature=plcp&context=C4eaa6fdVDvjVQa1PpcFOvx2h1gAY0dKBy2EcwzxfB 6W8-C2p1jWg=)

I hope that he is saying "Cold" and not the other word. It would certainly take a tad of the sting away. I still believe he should have NOT followed TM that night, and then none of this would have happened. JMO

mercuriod
04-05-2012, 12:49 PM
This was before TM was Id'ed?

Yes! That is why I believe the "initial" report has not been made public, what was made public was altered! jmo, imo and all that jazz

gxm
04-05-2012, 12:53 PM
We know he filled out an application of some kind where he stated he wanted to be and planned to be a law enforcement officer. So why wasn't he? What kept him from becoming a police officer?

I think that is an excellent question which, unfortunately, has yet to be answered. I've wondered the same thing myself. Is this information that can be released to the public? If so, why hasn't it been released yet?

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Dr.Fessel
04-05-2012, 12:53 PM
This was before TM was Id'ed? Yes. Military time.

vlpate
04-05-2012, 12:55 PM
Where are you getting these times and information?
Following quote inserted by me for clarity:
Originally Posted by vlpate
I find two things very odd about the girlfriend's story.
7:11:59 - Subject running toward back of complex
7:12 - Trayvon's girlfriend calls Trayvon at almost the exact moment he takes off running. (GZ had no way of knowing this)

Trayvon tells her a strange man is staring at him, although he's already run away from GZ. Girlfriend tells him to run, he says he's not going to run, he's going to walk fast.

7:16 - Phone call between TM and GF ends suddenly when Trayvon's ear plugs fall out. No one is going to convince me the call ended at that moment. His phone was in his pocket - he'd have had to turn it off for it to disconnect. I'm just not buying it.
Information:
Link here (http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-arrest-now-abc-reveals-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T33J-fDOVEI)
"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," Martin's friend said. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run."

Eventually, he would run, said the girl, thinking that he'd managed to escape."
<snip>
"Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell."
Times:
From the police call log, attached
Trayvon Phone record, attached

csziggy
04-05-2012, 12:57 PM
I have been thinking about that and I wonder if those clicking noises are GZ playing with the safety on his gun. By playing I mean flipping it back and forth as he is pursuing TM. Kind of like some people do a ball point pen when they are nervous click the top rhythmically as a "comfort" thing. I think it gave GZ much comfort and courage to carry that gun and think he probably played with the safety all the time as a way of reassuring himself that he was in control. JMO, IMO AND ALL THAT JAZZ
Each time, the clicking is a series of three clicks - wouldn't a safety be a click on and a click off? Of course, if GZ were playing with the safety and clicking it off, on off; on, off, on; off, on, off; etc. he could have left it the safety off while thinking it was on and that could have been the cause of the shooting. GZ pulls his gun, thinking the safety is on, then because it is off he shoots TM when he doesn't mean to.

GZ would still be responsible for TM's death because he would have violated any number of gun safety rules.

Frankly, while I consider GZ fully responsible for TM's death no matter how the final moments came down, I don't think GZ went hunting for TM with the intention of killing him. I see GZ as sloppy, careless, and irrepsonsible, wanting to be the enforcer in that neighborhood and as FT said, fed up with what GZ sees as a crime wave. I think GZ should never have been allowed to own a gun because of his past indications of poor impulse control. He should not have been a neighborhood watch volunteer since he had already shown a propensity for taking the law into his own hands.

IMO, JMO, etc.

LambChop
04-05-2012, 12:58 PM
That does not match the timing on the police log in the "initial police report" posted on the City of Sanford web site.

The "he's running" comment is roughly two minutes into GZ's call, but the operator at SPD at 19:11:59 entered into the log, "subj now running towards back entrance of complex".

I think some of the confusion may be that all the information the girlfriend is narrating has been attributed to the last call she had with TM. There were two earlier calls shown on the call log from ABC News - at 6:54 and at 7:04.

I think some of the events she has narrated happened during the call that began at 7:04 - TM passed GZ, saw him watching him, ducked under a porch, pulled up his hood, and ran. Maybe the call dropped while he was running, maybe when GZ (at about 7:11) saw TM's hand at his waistband and something in TM's hand, TM was disconnecting the call.

The screen captures I have of the call logs don't show the duration of the two earlier logs. From a CNN story about the girlfriend I have a section of the call log for the call that began at 7:12 that shows it was 4 minutes.

Then when the gf's call at 7:12 connects, TM tells her he ran, but he's not going to run anymore, just walk fast. I think he's talking to her, reassuring her, shooting the breeze for that four minutes until GZ comes on TM somewhere between the buildings and the call ends at 7:16

IMO, JMO, etc.

ETA - most of the media have been saying that GZ's call began at 7:10 - according to the SPD log of the call it connected at 19:09:34. That could be what is throwing their timeline off.

It's also interesting that GZ's father claims GZ became suspicious when he saw TM cutting through the houses. The only place to do that prior to the clubhouse would be the area between the homes off of Oregon Avenue which is where TM would have been walking down the pavement to the gate. Did TM cut through the side yard in between the homes as a shortcut rather than walk all the way down to the gate. There is clearly an opening there from the street side so someone wanting to get home fast because of the rain might take that shortcut. There's no walled in area and it appears pretty open except from some arbors along the backyard areas. If GZ was on his way to the store from his house he would have seen TM entering onto the street from between the two buildings as GZ would be driving down that street. So from what GZ's father is saying it appears GZ saw TM before TM arrived at the clubhouse. jmo

vlpate
04-05-2012, 01:00 PM
For anyone interested, CNN is about to go over the newly enhanced, enhanced racial slur with different result.

frenchvixen
04-05-2012, 01:01 PM
That does not match the timing on the police log in the "initial police report" posted on the City of Sanford web site.

The "he's running" comment is roughly two minutes into GZ's call, but the operator at SPD at 19:11:59 entered into the log, "subj now running towards back entrance of complex".

I think some of the confusion may be that all the information the girlfriend is narrating has been attributed to the last call she had with TM. There were two earlier calls shown on the call log from ABC News - at 6:54 and at 7:04.

I think some of the events she has narrated happened during the call that began at 7:04 - TM passed GZ, saw him watching him, ducked under a porch, pulled up his hood, and ran. Maybe the call dropped while he was running, maybe when GZ (at about 7:11) saw TM's hand at his waistband and something in TM's hand, TM was disconnecting the call.

The screen captures I have of the call logs don't show the duration of the two earlier logs. From a CNN story about the girlfriend I have a section of the call log for the call that began at 7:12 that shows it was 4 minutes.

Then when the gf's call at 7:12 connects, TM tells her he ran, but he's not going to run anymore, just walk fast. I think he's talking to her, reassuring her, shooting the breeze for that four minutes until GZ comes on TM somewhere between the buildings and the call ends at 7:16

IMO, JMO, etc.

ETA - most of the media have been saying that GZ's call began at 7:10 - according to the SPD log of the call it connected at 19:09:34. That could be what is throwing their timeline off.


If he got off the phone with gf @ 7:16p how can he be dead at 7:17p? Is the timeline correct? I believe the 911 recording have the gunshots going off at 7:17p.(I read this somewhere else so I don't know how factual that is).

gxm
04-05-2012, 01:02 PM
For the life of me I do not hear a racial slur.

Me neither. And I didn't hear it in the first tape either. The "o" sound ending with the hard consonant IMO has always sounded like either "coke" or "cold" to my ear. I absolutely do not hear anything rhyming with the word "spoons."

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Dr.Fessel
04-05-2012, 01:05 PM
It's also interesting that GZ's father claims GZ became suspicious when he saw TM cutting through the houses. The only place to do that prior to the clubhouse would be the area between the homes off of Oregon Avenue which is where TM would have been walking down the pavement to the gate. Did TM cut through the side yard in between the homes as a shortcut rather than walk all the way down to the gate. There is clearly an opening there from the street side so someone wanting to get home fast because of the rain might take that shortcut. There's no walled in area and it appears pretty open except from some arbors along the backyard areas. If GZ was on his way to the store from his house he would have seen TM entering onto the street from between the two buildings as GZ would be driving down that street. So from what GZ's father is saying it appears GZ saw TM before TM arrived at the clubhouse. jmo

Way back at the beginning of the case there was an article where someone said that is what Trayvon did and it was coming from Trayvon's side of the case but I am not sure where that article is. I always thought that extra block would make a little difference in the case of timing everything.

impatientredhead
04-05-2012, 01:12 PM
I think GZ will have a top notch defense team. His father was a judge and the gun rights lobbying groups will be watching this one closely (money). Convicted or not they are going to have to change the verbage of that extremely vague statute. JMO

Concerned Papa
04-05-2012, 01:14 PM
If he got off the phone with gf @ 7:16p how can he be dead at 7:17p? Is the timeline correct? I believe the 911 recording have the gunshots going off at 7:17p.(I read this somewhere else so I don't know how factual that is).

The time of the gunshot as nearly as I can tell was at 7:16:41. If you listen to the 911 call with the screams, the gunshot is heard at the :41 mark. The call began at 7:16 pm.

Either way, she was on the phone to within seconds of the shot that killed him.

Elley Mae
04-05-2012, 01:17 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/05/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

The garbled word that raised controversy was "punks," not "coons," said Tom Owen, chairman emeritus of the American Board of Recorded Evidence.

Well Well Well

Footwarrior
04-05-2012, 01:17 PM
They say eye witness testimony is not reliable. I think it has been proven. Now if a number of witnesses said the same thing, it would be more reliable, imo. Also, didn't this same witness say he heard arguing? That doesn't support other testimony or what we heard on the 911 call.

The general public assumes that eyewitness accounts are accurate unless the person is lying. Science tells us that even people who are being truthful often give wildly inaccurate descriptions of events. We construct our memories of events from what we saw, what we presume happened and what we learn later about the event. We often don't even notice things that don't fit what we expect. For an example of how easy a witness can miss what is really going on, see the classic Invisible Gorilla Experiment. (http://www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/gorilla_experiment.html)

"It isn't so astonishing, the number of things that I can remember, as the number of things I can remember that aren't so." - Mark Twain

csziggy
04-05-2012, 01:19 PM
Interesting one of the groups that they will hear from are tourism officials.
I've talked with several people online who have cancelled vacations in Florida as a protest about the TM case. Some of them have written the Governor telling him WHY they will not be visiting Florida as long as the Stand Your Ground law is still in effect.

Florida has always been very sensitive to issues that will affect tourism since it is such a large part of the state's economy. They can't afford to have tourists too afraid to visit.

Years ago, after the German tourists were killed at a rest stop, Florida added security at the interstate rest stops that continues to this day - the stops where there is no security are locked at night.

The Florida tourism industry is very powerful and if they push to get rid of the Stand Your Ground law, it could be gone by the end of the next session of the legislature no matter what the NRA says.

IMO, JMO, etc.

Elley Mae
04-05-2012, 01:23 PM
I've talked with several people online who have cancelled vacations in Florida as a protest about the TM case. Some of them have written the Governor telling him WHY they will not be visiting Florida as long as the Stand Your Ground law is still in effect.

Florida has always been very sensitive to issues that will affect tourism since it is such a large part of the state's economy. They can't afford to have tourists too afraid to visit.

Years ago, after the German tourists were killed at a rest stop, Florida added security at the interstate rest stops that continues to this day - the stops where there is no security are locked at night.

The Florida tourism industry is very powerful and if they push to get rid of the Stand Your Ground law, it could be gone by the end of the next session of the legislature no matter what the NRA says.

IMO, JMO, etc.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/05/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

and this one just recent

Dr.Fessel
04-05-2012, 01:23 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/05/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

The garbled word that raised controversy was "punks," not "coons," said Tom Owen, chairman emeritus of the American Board of Recorded Evidence.

Well Well Well

Huh?

Zimmerman told his lawyers that he said "These f---ing punks always get away," his lawyers told CNN on Thursday.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/05/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

Elley Mae
04-05-2012, 01:25 PM
The Media is not our friend. jmo

CathyinTexas
04-05-2012, 01:25 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/05/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

and this one just recent

I am sure the FBI has voice enhancement. Can't wait till we hear what their opinion is.

LambChop
04-05-2012, 01:26 PM
I've talked with several people online who have cancelled vacations in Florida as a protest about the TM case. Some of them have written the Governor telling him WHY they will not be visiting Florida as long as the Stand Your Ground law is still in effect.

Florida has always been very sensitive to issues that will affect tourism since it is such a large part of the state's economy. They can't afford to have tourists too afraid to visit.

Years ago, after the German tourists were killed at a rest stop, Florida added security at the interstate rest stops that continues to this day - the stops where there is no security are locked at night.

The Florida tourism industry is very powerful and if they push to get rid of the Stand Your Ground law, it could be gone by the end of the next session of the legislature no matter what the NRA says.

IMO, JMO, etc.

Plus a tourist is at a disadvantage coming into Florida because you wouldn't have a license to carry a gun in that state. Are licenses to carry a concealed weapon restructed to the state you live in only? jmo

Gin
04-05-2012, 01:27 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/05/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

The garbled word that raised controversy was "punks," not "coons," said Tom Owen, chairman emeritus of the American Board of Recorded Evidence.

Well Well Well

JMO, I don't think following an African American teen and swearing F***ing punks makes GZ look like a racial bias free choir boy. It's only slightly "better" than just going all the way with C****. Either way, we get his biased view of AA teens. :maddening:

raeann
04-05-2012, 01:27 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/05/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

The garbled word that raised controversy was "punks," not "coons," said Tom Owen, chairman emeritus of the American Board of Recorded Evidence.

Well Well Well

Either way it has NEVER really mattered....the snarled under the breath vindictive remark shows hatred, prejudice, and completely unfounded anger....Treyvon was never a punk, nor a goon and certainly not that other word.....

It is the attitude and INTENT of GZ that matters....any word you decide that you hear....it does NOT indicate impartial good will or sound judgement!

jmo

csziggy
04-05-2012, 01:28 PM
I don't see the SYG law and the CC permit as one in the same. When a state grants a permit for cc a person then has the right to do just that (carry the weapon concealed). Then the same state has a SYG law in place that means you are justified to defend yourself in your home. The issue is not the gun the issue is whether GZ killed TM in self defense. He could have had a knife. jmo

The Stand You Ground law takes the traditional "Castle" concept out of the home and applies it to anywhere a person might be. The Castle tradition has always given the right to defend yourself in your home. Self defense has always given the right to defend your person.

The difference with Stand Your Ground is that it allows a person who simply perceives a threat - but who might not actually BE threatened - to use the same force to react to that threat as they would to protect their home or their person from an actual threat. Then the law reduces the requirement for law enforcement to investigate and pretty much requires that LE take at face value the word of the survivor of any confrontation in which SYG is invoked.

I am not a lawyer or in law enforcement, but I think as written in Florida and in a number of other states (since many states are using the same template for SYG laws) oversteps what should be allowed. The previous laws for defending your home and your person were not deficient and there was no pressing reason for the changes in the SYG law.

Concealed carry permits are completely separate from the SYG law other than I see both as paranoid responses to imaginary threats.

JMO, IMO, etc.

tehcloser
04-05-2012, 01:31 PM
Zimmerman's 911 call: Audio enhanced again - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOt1wEDy0SI&feature=plcp&context=C4eaa6fdVDvjVQa1PpcFOvx2h1gAY0dKBy2EcwzxfB 6W8-C2p1jWg=)


This cnn ink says it was "cold"....and now we hear on cnn it was "punks".....:floorlaugh:

katydid23
04-05-2012, 01:32 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/05/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

The garbled word that raised controversy was "punks," not "coons," said Tom Owen, chairman emeritus of the American Board of Recorded Evidence.

Well Well Well

Very interesting. I have noticed that a lot of people are using that alleged racial slur as the reason they know he is guilty of murder. I wonder if this will change anyone's opinion.

ETA: I guess not...

frenchvixen
04-05-2012, 01:32 PM
NO! The call BEGAN at 7:12 and ended at 7:16. If the shot rang out at 7:16:44 that is totally consistent with the GF's story. And if the phone logs show the call ending at 7:16 -- that means it could have ended anywhere from 7:16:00 to 7:16:59. We're talking a matter of seconds. I THINK WE JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT HERE!!!

Good afternoon TG, I know I read many times that the call ended at 7:16p but I just cannot understand how all this fighting and wrestling and punching in the nose and bashing the head to the sidewalk (not to mention the neighbors hearing and screaming "STOP") took place in 30 seconds. Can someone please explain this to me? Either the phone records are wrong or the eyewitnesses are wrong.

I have a question for the attorneys or experts here. If it comes down to believing the eyewitnesses or the 911 calls if they conflict which will be admissible during the grand jury? They both can't be right.

tehcloser
04-05-2012, 01:35 PM
Hold onnnnnnnnnnnnn.
If we are going to believe this expert on "punks" are we also gonna believe him on this:

While Zimmerman's lawyers may welcome Owen's analysis of their client's 911 call, they disagree with his conclusions about what is heard on another 911 recording.


Owen and another audio expert, Ed Primeau, analyzed the recording for the Sentinel using different techniques, and they said they don't believe it is Zimmerman who is heard yelling in the background of one 911 call.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/05/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html


quite the quandry.............innit?

katydid23
04-05-2012, 01:35 PM
We know he filled out an application of some kind where he stated he wanted to be and planned to be a law enforcement officer. So why wasn't he? What kept him from becoming a police officer?

Maybe the arrest for 'assaulting a police officer' had something to do with it.

Inabsentia
04-05-2012, 01:36 PM
Plus a tourist is at a disadvantage coming into Florida because you wouldn't have a license to carry a gun in that state. Are licenses to carry a concealed weapon restructed to the state you live in only? jmo

My Dad is a dealer with a cc permit. My understanding is that various states have reciprocal arrangements with various other states.

csziggy
04-05-2012, 01:36 PM
Who is this John person who won't show his face and where is his 911 call? IMO.

Sent from my Huawei U8800-51 using Tapatalk

There is one 911 call from a man - http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/911/call2.wav

But what is on that recording doesn't really match the "John" story. His call starts after the shot since he begins by saying there had been a shot. He does say "They're wrestling right in the back of my porch." But he does not say anything about who was on top before the shot.

There may have been another person at that location, though, since at one point after an address or phone number is blanked out the recording resumes as the caller says "Sanford Police" as if her's telling someone else that he is on the line with SPD.

Elley Mae
04-05-2012, 01:36 PM
JMO, I don't think following an African American teen and swearing F***ing punks makes GZ look like a racial bias free choir boy. It's only slightly "better" than just going all the way with C****. Either way, we get his biased view of AA teens. :maddening:

As we know from the 911 calls, GZ did not know TM was AA till TM turned and faced him it was at that point that GZ could then see and only then that TM was AA. And at 6'4" I do not see how GZ could tell that TM was a teen. Maybe it was the hoodie that caused him to say F***ing punks. jmo idk

When I scared a guy? in a hoodie away about 2 months ago at 3 in the morn I said worst then F***ing punks. and it wasn't racial either.

gxm
04-05-2012, 01:37 PM
JMO, I don't think following an African American teen and swearing F***ing punks makes GZ look like a racial bias free choir boy. It's only slightly "better" than just going all the way with C****. Either way, we get his biased view of AA teens. :maddening:

I totally disagree. "Punks" is not a race-specific slur. IMO, it's not even a slur. Without the racial slur, it will be very hard to press hate crime charges, much less convict on basically nothing other than TM was an AA teen and the person who shot him is a 20-something Hispanic man.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

katydid23
04-05-2012, 01:38 PM
Hold onnnnnnnnnnnnn.
If we are going to believe this expert on "punks" are we also gonna believe him on this:

While Zimmerman's lawyers may welcome Owen's analysis of their client's 911 call, they disagree with his conclusions about what is heard on another 911 recording.


Owen and another audio expert, Ed Primeau, analyzed the recording for the Sentinel using different techniques, and they said they don't believe it is Zimmerman who is heard yelling in the background of one 911 call.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/05/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

Everybody was quick to accept his opinion on Zimmernmna being disqualified as the screamer. So are we having trouble accepting his opinion on the slur word?

Adrienne37
04-05-2012, 01:39 PM
Each time, the clicking is a series of three clicks - wouldn't a safety be a click on and a click off? Of course, if GZ were playing with the safety and clicking it off, on off; on, off, on; off, on, off; etc. he could have left it the safety off while thinking it was on and that could have been the cause of the shooting. GZ pulls his gun, thinking the safety is on, then because it is off he shoots TM when he doesn't mean to.

GZ would still be responsible for TM's death because he would have violated any number of gun safety rules.

Frankly, while I consider GZ fully responsible for TM's death no matter how the final moments came down, I don't think GZ went hunting for TM with the intention of killing him. I see GZ as sloppy, careless, and irrepsonsible, wanting to be the enforcer in that neighborhood and as FT said, fed up with what GZ sees as a crime wave. I think GZ should never have been allowed to own a gun because of his past indications of poor impulse control. He should not have been a neighborhood watch volunteer since he had already shown a propensity for taking the law into his own hands.

IMO, JMO, etc.

I agree with your post csziggy; however, I still maintain that his intentions were nothing less than premeditated when he made the decision to step out of his vehicle with his loaded weapon on his person despite being told by 911 not to pursue. Premeditation can be formed literally in 1 second. While I wish he could be charged with first degree murder, I seriously doubt that will happen but personally I'd like to see him sitting behind bars for the rest of his natural life or even subjected to the death penalty for what he has done to Trayvon and his family. He took the laws into his hands and Trayvon paid the ultimate price.


~jmo~

frenchvixen
04-05-2012, 01:42 PM
I thought he said he wasn't going to run?

When the phone calls of the girlfriend to TM and the 911 calls are juxtapoxed it is so vivid. You get to see both sides' viewpoint and it's so frightening. It's dark, this boy is not on his turf, someone is following him in a manner that he deems to be life threatening. On the other hand GZ has something else playing in his mind. He thinks his territory is under siege by a teenager.. the black teenagers that have been burglarizing the homes for the past few months. It's so high charged. If it were a movie I would literally been sitting at the edge of my chair screaming, "Run Trayvon, Run" and hoping that the evil watchman trips or falls but the watchman is in pursuit after the younger one and then.. well you know the ending. Too bad this is real life. It's interesting to read both sides as it happens (with the 911 calls and the phone calls from TM to his GF)

vlpate
04-05-2012, 01:42 PM
Each time, the clicking is a series of three clicks - wouldn't a safety be a click on and a click off? Of course, if GZ were playing with the safety and clicking it off, on off; on, off, on; off, on, off; etc. he could have left it the safety off while thinking it was on and that could have been the cause of the shooting. GZ pulls his gun, thinking the safety is on, then because it is off he shoots TM when he doesn't mean to.

I looked up information about the gun Zimmerman carried, a Kel-Tec PF-9 9mm semi-automatic pistoll It has a five-pound trigger pull and an automatic hammer block safety. IOW, as I understand it, the only way to disengage the safety is to shoot the gun.

<snipped respectfully>

Dr.Fessel
04-05-2012, 01:43 PM
As we know from the 911 calls, GZ did not know TM was AA till TM turned and faced him it was at that point that GZ could then see and only then that TM was AA. And at 6'4" I do not see how GZ could tell that TM was a teen. Maybe it was the hoodie that caused him to say F***ing punks. jmo idk

When I scared a guy? in a hoodie away about 2 months ago at 3 in the morn I said worst then F***ing punks. and it wasn't racial either. He nailed Martin's age in the tape pretty close. He said late teens.

Gin
04-05-2012, 01:43 PM
I've talked with several people online who have cancelled vacations in Florida as a protest about the TM case. Some of them have written the Governor telling him WHY they will not be visiting Florida as long as the Stand Your Ground law is still in effect.

Florida has always been very sensitive to issues that will affect tourism since it is such a large part of the state's economy. They can't afford to have tourists too afraid to visit.

Years ago, after the German tourists were killed at a rest stop, Florida added security at the interstate rest stops that continues to this day - the stops where there is no security are locked at night.

The Florida tourism industry is very powerful and if they push to get rid of the Stand Your Ground law, it could be gone by the end of the next session of the legislature no matter what the NRA says.

IMO, JMO, etc.

Good to know. I do think the Florida Tourist Board has an obligation to warn visitors about this law when they arrive in Florida.

Welcome to Florida! Sun, Sand, and Stand Your Ground. Ugh. :banghead:

tehcloser
04-05-2012, 01:44 PM
Everybody was quick to accept his opinion on Zimmernmna being disqualified as the screamer. So are we having trouble accepting his opinion on the slur word?

:floorlaugh: Not a bit...just wondering if those who disagreed with him about TM being the one screaming were ready to accept that it was.

Steft50
04-05-2012, 01:44 PM
I'd like to know the positions of their bodies. For instance, could they have both been on their backs with GZ on bottom while holding Tray on top while wrestling? I have assumed that they were face to face while on the ground but don't recall reading such.

The only thing I have read with specifics is that GZ was staddling Tray, who was face down on the ground after the shooting.

Just trying to think outside the box. I am waaaay behind as my computer is still :maddening:

MOO Tia, wm

morning all!

I'd like to know how far away this witness was to the altercation, what was the lighting? It was after 7pm, before the time change? So dusk at the least, dark at the most. Porch lights only light so far....how far away was this witness? What is his age? I don't know about others but I can't really tell darker colors in the dark. Darker grays, blacks, dark reds, dark blues...they are going to look like shades of dark colors to me.....

gxm
04-05-2012, 01:45 PM
Good afternoon TG, I know I read many times that the call ended at 7:16p but I just cannot understand how all this fighting and wrestling and punching in the nose and bashing the head to the sidewalk (not to mention the neighbors hearing and screaming "STOP") took place in 30 seconds. Can someone please explain this to me? Either the phone records are wrong or the eyewitnesses are wrong.

I have a question for the attorneys or experts here. If it comes down to believing the eyewitnesses or the 911 calls if they conflict which will be admissible during the grand jury? They both can't be right.

ITA. I'm inclined to believe that the timestamps of the various devices are/were not synchronized.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

gxm
04-05-2012, 01:46 PM
:floorlaugh: Not a bit...just wondering if those who disagreed with him about TM being the one screaming were ready to accept that it was.

IMO, I think it is most likely they were both screaming.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Footwarrior
04-05-2012, 01:47 PM
The time of the gunshot as nearly as I can tell was at 7:16:41. If you listen to the 911 call with the screams, the gunshot is heard at the :41 mark. The call began at 7:16 pm.

Either way, she was on the phone to within seconds of the shot that killed him.

The only source we have for the call between TM and his girlfriend only reports calls to the minute. We don't know if T-Mobile rounds time stamps the nearest minute or if they simply drop the seconds. We also can't assume that the call lasted exactly 4 minutes. Does T-Mobile round up call times to the next minute?

I don't recall any of the 911 calls starting at exactly 7:16 pm. Even if the first call did, the struggle must have been going on for some time before the start of the call. It takes time for someone to realize there is a problem, decide to call 911, dial the phone and for the 911 operator to answer the call. I would be amazed if this took less than 15 seconds.

tehcloser
04-05-2012, 01:48 PM
IMO, I think it is most likely they were both screaming.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:


I think GZ might have been "yelling", but it was only TM who was "screaming".

dsntslp
04-05-2012, 01:50 PM
Florida CCW Reciprocity Map

http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/florida-ccw-state-laws.php

Interactive map, you can change to view your own state laws.

csziggy
04-05-2012, 01:51 PM
It's also interesting that GZ's father claims GZ became suspicious when he saw TM cutting through the houses. The only place to do that prior to the clubhouse would be the area between the homes off of Oregon Avenue which is where TM would have been walking down the pavement to the gate. Did TM cut through the side yard in between the homes as a shortcut rather than walk all the way down to the gate. There is clearly an opening there from the street side so someone wanting to get home fast because of the rain might take that shortcut. There's no walled in area and it appears pretty open except from some arbors along the backyard areas. If GZ was on his way to the store from his house he would have seen TM entering onto the street from between the two buildings as GZ would be driving down that street. So from what GZ's father is saying it appears GZ saw TM before TM arrived at the clubhouse. jmo

That's what I think - TM is coming back from the store, cuts through to get off the main road and into the neighborhood - also on the neighborhood road more protected from the wind. GZ is leaving for Target (let's take that at face value), sees an unknown coming between the buildings.

Gz could have driven on by TM but stopped at the intersection in front of the clubhouse to keep an eye on him. That would give time for GZ to make his call to SPD, talk to them as TM walks up the street closer to GZ's car. Then TM ducks under the porch/awning of the clubhouse, puts up his hood, and gets spooked by this guy who had driven by him but who is not sitting there watching him. TM runs - across the open area until he gets to the turn between the rows of townhouses.

There is a full minute between when GZ says TM is coming towards him until he says TM runs. This scenario would make this timing fit.

IMO, JMO, etc.

Emeralgem
04-05-2012, 01:51 PM
This cnn ink says it was "cold"....and now we hear on cnn it was "punks".....:floorlaugh:

When I think about it teh, in all reality I have come to believe they think we are idiots..JMHO

My question is.. HOW LONG HAS THIS BEEN GOIN ON?JMHO

Footwarrior
04-05-2012, 01:51 PM
I'd like to know how far away this witness was to the altercation, what was the lighting? It was after 7pm, before the time change? So dusk at the least, dark at the most. Porch lights only light so far....how far away was this witness? What is his age? I don't know about others but I can't really tell darker colors in the dark. Darker grays, blacks, dark reds, dark blues...they are going to look like shades of dark colors to me.....

The shooting happened after civil twilight, so it would have been dark. The path behind the condos was illuminated by low lights in addition to whatever porch lights were on at the time. But you are correct, it's not easy to see colors in low light situations.

Peliman
04-05-2012, 01:52 PM
Plus a tourist is at a disadvantage coming into Florida because you wouldn't have a license to carry a gun in that state. Are licenses to carry a concealed weapon restructed to the state you live in only? jmo

Depends where the concealed permit and type permit plus reciprocity states, depending on the state of issue. Here's a website explaining reciprocity from the state of Fla.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/news/concealed_carry.html

Elley Mae
04-05-2012, 01:54 PM
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/local/040512-Trayvon-Martin-case-debunking-the-myths

However, A lot of rumors swirling around the case come with some absurd moments, some mistakes from network news anchors and celebrities and even some flat out lies.

Elley Mae
04-05-2012, 01:56 PM
Depends where the concealed permit and type permit plus reciprocity states, depending on the state of issue. Here's a website explaining reciprocity from the state of Fla.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/news/concealed_carry.html

You do not have to be a florida resident to get a ccw permit from florida

o/t I am living between 2 states in the one state I arrived tueday afternoon at the foodlion and a man in the parking lot was walking to his vehicle wearing a revolver. I never felt safer.

dsntslp
04-05-2012, 01:56 PM
The general public assumes that eyewitness accounts are accurate unless the person is lying. Science tells us that even people who are being truthful often give wildly inaccurate descriptions of events. We construct our memories of events from what we saw, what we presume happened and what we learn later about the event. We often don't even notice things that don't fit what we expect. For an example of how easy a witness can miss what is really going on, see the classic Invisible Gorilla Experiment. (http://www.theinvisiblegorilla.com/gorilla_experiment.html)

"It isn't so astonishing, the number of things that I can remember, as the number of things I can remember that aren't so." - Mark TwainThat is really neat!
Going up on the FB page!
TY TY

frenchvixen
04-05-2012, 01:57 PM
Everybody was quick to accept his opinion on Zimmernmna being disqualified as the screamer. So are we having trouble accepting his opinion on the slur word?

I don't have any problems accepting the facts. That's all the public wants. If it was TM screaming on 911 then we should all accept it. It GZ did not utter the C--N word (which I don't believe he did) then we should accept it also. What I cannot stand is for people to see the truth in front of them and to still debate that it is not correct b/c it does not fit their agenda.

csziggy
04-05-2012, 01:57 PM
If he got off the phone with gf @ 7:16p how can he be dead at 7:17p? Is the timeline correct? I believe the 911 recording have the gunshots going off at 7:17p.(I read this somewhere else so I don't know how factual that is).

CNN posted transcripts of all the 911 calls (not GZ's non-911 call, but that transcript had been posted before): http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/20/911-calls-paint-picture-of-chaos-after-florida-teen-is-shot

The call (Call 3 on the Sanford web site, the second call on the CNN transcript) that has the screaming and the shot is listed as beginning at 7:16. The gunshot is at 44 seconds into that recording according to the measurements I made with my audio software. The screaming is going on from the moment the call connects until the shot then ends instantly.

The police officers logs show that they arrived at 7:17. GZ was already standing, TM on the ground facedown with his hands under his body. The officers attempted CPR but never got a response and the EMTs (whose arrival time we don't have) declared TM dead at 7:30.

According to this timeline, 44 seconds after Trayvon's girlfriend's call was disconnected, Trayvon was dead.

IMO, JMO, etc.

RANCH
04-05-2012, 01:59 PM
I looked up information about the gun Zimmerman carried, a Kel-Tec PF-9 9mm semi-automatic pistoll It has a five-pound trigger pull and an automatic hammer block safety. IOW, as I understand it, the only way to disengage the safety is to shoot the gun.

<snipped respectfully>
Your correct. It's a double action only gun. It has no manual safety. It has a long heavy trigger pull on each shot. The automatic hammer block safety prevents the hammer from striking the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled.

http://keltecweapons.com/our-guns/