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LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 09:09 PM
Witness's attorney said to Ashley Banfield: The interview you just did with her was much more thorough than the police did with her. The witness also said that investigator said to her that night -- if it's any consolation -- the person who was screaming is still alive.

:what::what::what:

What???

This is really starting to anger me again! I was really starting to calm down with what has gone in this case, but this is just too much!

What in the world... how in the world... why in the world would an "investigator" tell a witness ANYTHING?? Your job is to take the statement of the witness... not put into their minds something that they weren't even there to witness for themselves??

Ugh!! Who was this "investigator??" His name better be on that recorded statement! Fire him/her! Because if this is the same one who "corrected" MC's statement... we have a problem!

Adrienne37
04-06-2012, 09:11 PM
I heard it a bit different. I heard her say a few times that it was very dark and she could not be sure, but she thought the bigger man was on top of ' the little boy.'

Her attorney was talking about the FOLLOW UP interview. That one was only 15 minutes. But her initial interview that evening was recorded and she told her entire story.

Mark Geragos was on after the interview and said he thought she actually helped the defense. She talked about hearing very long and loud argument which went on for awhile.

Thanks. Mark Geragos? I'll pass on anything Geragos has to say. What a joke he is.



~jmo~

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 09:12 PM
It's in the police report. Officer Smith disarmed him by taking the gun from GZ's waistband and then cuff him. jmo

Did he have gloves on?? I hope so because even if there wasn't blood splatter, it should always be assumed that there would be blood on a gun that was just used to kill someone... not to mention, it's evidence!

vlpate
04-06-2012, 09:12 PM
Totally agree with this post! It is one thing when, for sake of time, editting is done to hit high points of an interview, call, etc. It is quite another, in a case such as this, to splice together bits and pieces that will only serve to inflame the situation more. IMO, this is exactly what this person did. They cherry picked what they wanted to be heard, put it together, and came up with a string that made for a bad picture. I want justice for Trayvon, but I do not want it to be manufactured. JMO

I tried to find the "AMEN" smiley, but not there. I agree 100%. The story is bad enough without the embellishment and creative editing.

mfcmom
04-06-2012, 09:13 PM
If the Huffington Post has deliberately stated or implied falsely that Uhrig claimed GZ to be suffering from SBS, either before or after the head injury he sustained that night, that is IMO highly irresponsible and wrong, since Uhrig clearly said no such thing.

Here is the Huffington Post article for anyone who cares to read it line for line:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/06/george-zimmerman-shaken-baby_n_1408421.html

BTW, I linked the actual CBS video of Uhrig's comments upthread, because I understood you to say you heard/saw it on TV. Sorry if I got that wrong.

Again, here is the video, with Uhrig's remarks beginning at 3:43:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57410388/zimmerman-lawyer-client-convicted-by-media/

Unfortunately, or fortunately, we can agree to disagree. You say tomato, I say tomatoe. Thank you for your opinion, but the inference was there, or he wouldn't have said it. I am not the only one who feels this way. But thank you again for your insight. Defense attorney's are in the practice of throwing out anything they can against the wall to see if it will stick. Kind of reminds me of the JB defense with GA. JMO

kimpage
04-06-2012, 09:14 PM
:what::what::what:

What???

This is really starting to anger me again! I was really starting to calm down with what has gone in this case, but this is just too much!

What in the world... how in the world... why in the world would an "investigator" tell a witness ANYTHING?? Your job is to take the statement of the witness... not put into their minds something that they weren't even there to witness for themselves??

Ugh!! Who was this "investigator??" His name better be on that recorded statement! Fire him/her! Because if this is the same one who "corrected" MC's statement... we have a problem!
They need to investigate the SPD and clean house...These statements make me so flippin ANGRY!!!!!!!!!!! IMHO

csziggy
04-06-2012, 09:14 PM
It is against the law. You can not create a report and date it then add information to it at a later date without dating the addition.

It is a historical document. People looking at it would say well they knew the ID of the person at 3:09 which would not be true.

The "initial" police report obviously was not finalized in the first hours after the shooting, no matter what the times on it say. There is simply too much information in it - particularly Trayvon's full identification and place of residence in Miami.

Since it was "printed" on 03/06/2012 according to the note at the bottom of the report, my first impression is that is the final date that information could have been altered on the report. BUT the PDF was not created until 10:19:40 AM on 03/13/2012. The information on the PDF could have been altered in that week between when the report was "printed" and when the PDF posted on the web site was created. I won't even get paranoid enough to think that the City of Sanford was clever enough to alter the digital signatures. :what:

Maybe this is why that information was removed from the City of Sanford website - maybe the special prosecutor realized that the information on the reports was not consistent with the information her team was gathering. For low information people who may not have been paying attention, once her report or indictment or whatever she ends up doing comes out, they will not have the versions available earlier to compare to the "final" version of events. :waitasec:

Although the main stream media should have collected all the available information, as we've seen they get stuff wrong, they distort the information they do have, or they just plain lie to the public presumably with the idea that they know better and think it is in our "best interests". :banghead:

Just speculating here, so IMO, JMO, etc.

TonyGatto
04-06-2012, 09:15 PM
:what::what::what:

What???

This is really starting to anger me again! I was really starting to calm down with what has gone in this case, but this is just too much!

What in the world... how in the world... why in the world would an "investigator" tell a witness ANYTHING?? Your job is to take the statement of the witness... not put into their minds something that they weren't even there to witness for themselves??

Ugh!! Who was this "investigator??" His name better be on that recorded statement! Fire him/her! Because if this is the same one who "corrected" MC's statement... we have a problem!

Definitely get the feeingl there was an effort to tow the company line.

Dr.Fessel
04-06-2012, 09:15 PM
It's in the police report. Officer Smith disarmed him by taking the gun from GZ's waistband and then cuff him. jmo Yes, but when you watch the video of Officer Smith going to the police station you see he does not have the gun. Just wondering who he would have handed it off too.

belle3
04-06-2012, 09:16 PM
Did gz himself call 911 after he shot tm or was the police there almost immediately after. Tia

Chris_Texas
04-06-2012, 09:17 PM
Add Mr. T to the list of people who should STOP HELPING George. FGS, what is a "Trayvon-like dude"???

The statements from these supporters of GZ seem outlandish. Yet there are, in many ways, far less outlandish than the many statements I have read from GZ defenders on the web.

LambChop
04-06-2012, 09:18 PM
Performing drug screens on decedents involved in violent actions has become routine in many jurisdictions, usually only doing blood & urine sampling rather than "other" organ tissue testing as one would perform in "unknown" CODs.

Also, IIRC, the members of the SPD REQUESTED IT be done on the gunshot fatality. (sorry no link, just remember this from previous discussions on this forum)

JMO,JME

That's what I thought I read. Plus the narcotics officer came out so they were probably looking for drugs on TM after GZ told dispatch that he looked like he was on drugs. What a mess this is??? jmo

4Jacy
04-06-2012, 09:18 PM
I know. I didn't either. So the gun had to have been left at the scene with detectives, correct? I figure it was immediately taken from Zimmerman's possession (hopefully with gloves on and placed in an evidence bag right away)? Would Zimmerman placing the gun back in the holster smear any fingerprints on the gun?

BBM

Great post, and I would like an answer to this also. I have been following this case since the beginning but on the news not on WS. Did GZ, in fact, have a holster? tia

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 09:20 PM
Yes, but when you watch the video of Officer Smith going to the police station you see he does not have the gun. Just wondering who he would have handed it off too.

Exactly! If he had the gun, we would have seen him take it out of the trunk (in an evidence bag!!), right? So it was left with "investigators" on the scene.

Now I really hope they got GZ's phone records because I want to know how soon he was allowed to call Daddy. I want to know if he was allowed to call him while he was still on the scene. I also want to see the tapes of all entrances and exits into that police station that night to see if that "meeting" ever did take place?

MOO

LambChop
04-06-2012, 09:20 PM
Yes, but when you watch the video of Officer Smith going to the police station you see he does not have the gun. Just wondering who he would have handed it off too.

It could have still been in the trunk or the narcotics officer had it, IMO.

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 09:21 PM
[/B]

BBM

Great post, and I would like an answer to this also. I have been following this case since the beginning but on the news not on WS. Did GZ, in fact, have a holster? tia

According to the now un-released police report that was originally released, yes, the gun was in a holster!

Welcome to the Trayvon Martin forum!! Websleuths is better than any news station. Promise!

jaded cat
04-06-2012, 09:21 PM
Well, this certainly takes the cake. Unbelievable.

"Shaken Baby Syndrome" used in defense of Trayvon Martin's killer

SANFORD, Florida (Reuters) - "Shaken Baby Syndrome" was cited on Friday in the defense of George Zimmerman, the Sanford, Florida, man who shot and killed unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin, in a case that has sparked a widespread public outcry.

Hal Uhrig, a lawyer and former Gainesville, Florida, police officer who recently joined Zimmerman's defense team, cited in a TV interview the brain damage that can seriously injure or kill an infant.

http://whtc.com/news/articles/2012/apr/06/shaken-baby-syndrome-used-in-defense-of-trayvon-martins-killer/

Pardon me while I beat my head against this wall:banghead: Considering the recent studies concerning the validity of "Shaken Baby Syndrome", it's hard to believe a competent lawyer would even mention such a plea. :please:

LambChop
04-06-2012, 09:22 PM
Exactly! If he had the gun, we would have seen him take it out of the trunk (in an evidence bag!!), right? So it was left with "investigators" on the scene.

Now I really hope they got GZ's phone records because I want to know how soon he was allowed to call Daddy. I want to know if he was allowed to call him while he was still on the scene. I also want to see the tapes of all entrances and exits into that police station that night to see if that "meeting" ever did take place?

MOO

I don't know but IMO they would start the processing first with GZ and then go get the evidence bag to log it in. jmo

katydid23
04-06-2012, 09:23 PM
Witness's attorney said to Ashley Banfield: The interview you just did with her was much more thorough than the police did with her. The witness also said that investigator said to her that night -- if it's any consolation -- the person who was screaming is still alive.

bbm

The attorney did not hear the initial interview. He only heard the FOLLOW UP interview.

Desdemona
04-06-2012, 09:24 PM
Again if these injuries were so severe and likely to cause you death possibly within a few days, why was he not treated in the ER the night of Trayvon's murder? His brother indicated that he was barely conscious, one step away from being spoon fed and wearing diapers. I would love a very reasonable explanation as to why he didn't go to the hospital.

~jmo~Again, his attorney did not characterize the severity or nature of the injuries to GZ's head, but instead pointed out that he had every reason and right to protect himself from imminent danger of serious or fatal injury. I provided the link to Uhrig's remarks on CBS This Morning. It's just upthread, in case anyone needs to review what he actually said.

Wasn't the brother's controversial comment and version of the story later repudiated by GZ's legal advisor (Sonner), because he had not spoken with George for years, and had no actual knowledge of what took place that night?

JMO

---

ETA:

Based on Uhrig's specific remarks. LolaMoon has pointed out that "his attorney" (Sonner I believe) did say that his wound should have had stitches. Thanks for clarifying.

doubt
04-06-2012, 09:26 PM
He wasn't making rounds. He was on the way to Target on a "personal errand" when he noticed someone he thought was suspicious. At that point, he called LE, on their non emergency number, and while waiting for LE to show up he kept an eye on the guy.

I think it might be time to have a thread that lists the "facts" and "myths" because the same incorrect myths keep popping up like whackamoles. He wasn't on "patrol".

how do we know for certain gz was ever on the way to target? unless i've missed something, such information must have come from gz, either through a surrogate or via what he told a cop after snuffing the life out of an innocent teenager.

jenna, you mentioned you thought gz was savvy when it comes to police matters. i would actually agree with you there. i think he was savvy enough to know how to kiss up to the local pd, and savvy enough to claim he just happened to spot tm while on an errand to target.

if indeed it's proven he was on the way to the store, so be it. i would consider it a relief, actually. until i see it myself, though, i wouldn't be shocked to learn that gz had never been to a target in his life. it seems to me he was in the habit of waiting for his ''target'' to come to him. just my opinion, moo, all that jazz.....

vlpate
04-06-2012, 09:26 PM
Saw previews fo Piers Morgan...Steven Segal is gonna be on and said if dispatch told GZ we dont need you to follow and if it was in his jurisdiction he would arrest GZ.

Steven Segal, the actor?

saguaro
04-06-2012, 09:27 PM
If the Huffington Post has deliberately stated or implied falsely that Uhrig claimed GZ to be suffering from SBS, either before or after the head injury he sustained that night, that is IMO highly irresponsible and wrong, since Uhrig clearly said no such thing.

Here is the Huffington Post article for anyone who cares to read it line for line:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/06/george-zimmerman-shaken-baby_n_1408421.html

BTW, I linked the actual CBS video of Uhrig's comments upthread, because I understood you to say you heard/saw it on TV. Sorry if I got that wrong.

Again, here is the video, with Uhrig's remarks beginning at 3:43:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57410388/zimmerman-lawyer-client-convicted-by-media/

Thanks for this.

This is nothing less than media sensationalism of the worst kind. The attorney said no such thing about using SBS as a defense.

:banghead:

Adrienne37
04-06-2012, 09:27 PM
Again, his attorney did not characterize the severity or nature of the injuries to GZ's head, but instead pointed out that he had every reason and right to protect himself from imminent danger of serious or fatal injury. I provided the link to Uhrig's remarks on CBS This Morning. It's just upthread, in case anyone needs to review what he actually said.

Wasn't the brother's controversial comment and version of the story later repudiated by GZ's legal advisor (Sonner), because he had not spoken with George for years, and had no actual knowledge of what took place that night?

JMO

That would be correct; however, Zimmerman's father later claimed that what Sonner said about the brother's relationship was not correct.



~jmo~

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 09:28 PM
Again, his attorney did not characterize the severity or nature of the injuries to GZ's head, but instead pointed out that he had every reason and right to protect himself from imminent danger of serious or fatal injury. I provided the link to Uhrig's remarks on CBS This Morning. It's just upthread, in case anyone needs to review what he actually said.

Wasn't the brother's controversial comment and version of the story later repudiated by GZ's legal advisor (Sonner), because he had not spoken with George for years, and had no actual knowledge of what took place that night?

JMO

Actually, it was stated by George's lawyer that Zimmerman had a severe gash to his head that would have required stitches but by the time he had went to get checked out medically, it had begun to heal so they couldn't give him stitches?

I do not have a link, but I promise that it was discussed a lot here and I will also add MY :moo::moo::moo: to it just in case.

Dr.Fessel
04-06-2012, 09:28 PM
It could have still been in the trunk or the narcotics officer had it, IMO. If it was in the trunk I would have thought the officer would have taken it with him seeing how far they had to walk to get where they were going in that video. That would have been the only evidence he had.

Adrienne37
04-06-2012, 09:30 PM
Steven Segal, the actor?

Steven Seagal, in addition to being an actor, also serves as a reserve deputy sheriff in Jefferson Parish, Louisiana. In fact, he had his own reality program which rode along with him while he was performing his job and yes, he does have the power to arrest someone.




~jmo~

LambChop
04-06-2012, 09:30 PM
The "initial" police report obviously was not finalized in the first hours after the shooting, no matter what the times on it say. There is simply too much information in it - particularly Trayvon's full identification and place of residence in Miami.

Since it was "printed" on 03/06/2012 according to the note at the bottom of the report, my first impression is that is the final date that information could have been altered on the report. BUT the PDF was not created until 10:19:40 AM on 03/13/2012. The information on the PDF could have been altered in that week between when the report was "printed" and when the PDF posted on the web site was created. I won't even get paranoid enough to think that the City of Sanford was clever enough to alter the digital signatures. :what:

Maybe this is why that information was removed from the City of Sanford website - maybe the special prosecutor realized that the information on the reports was not consistent with the information her team was gathering. For low information people who may not have been paying attention, once her report or indictment or whatever she ends up doing comes out, they will not have the versions available earlier to compare to the "final" version of events. :waitasec:

Although the main stream media should have collected all the available information, as we've seen they get stuff wrong, they distort the information they do have, or they just plain lie to the public presumably with the idea that they know better and think it is in our "best interests". :banghead:

Just speculating here, so IMO, JMO, etc.

I would think the report is ongoing as information comes in. The name would be important and they would not keep it as John Doe because that is a temporary name until the person is identified. Adding his name does not alter the report and some reports are just their preliminary reports to record what happened while it is fresh in their minds. I don't think it in any way alters the content of the actual report. It's just, okay now we have a name of the victim it needs to appear on those preliminary reports. That information on top appears to be as if it is a header that will run throughout their reports as they continue to add to them. jmo

Dr.Fessel
04-06-2012, 09:31 PM
The office of the State Attorney, 4th Judicial Circuit, State Attorney Angela Corey has requested that the City of Sanford remove all reports, videos and audio pertaining to the Martin/Zimmerman case from the website. Their office has provided legal justification for the action and they believe further access to the information will have an adverse effect on their efforts to come to a resolution to this investigation.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

Another thing that disappeared from the City's website at the same time this statement was made is the City's reply to the ABC news report that the first person to interview Zimmerman was a narcotics officer.

kimpage
04-06-2012, 09:32 PM
Steven Segal, the actor?
Yes BUT HE IS A COP NOW

saguaro
04-06-2012, 09:36 PM
Yes BUT HE IS A COP NOW

He's a reserve deputy sheriff...supposedly.

TonyGatto
04-06-2012, 09:36 PM
The office of the State Attorney, 4th Judicial Circuit, State Attorney Angela Corey has requested that the City of Sanford remove all reports, videos and audio pertaining to the Martin/Zimmerman case from the website. Their office has provided legal justification for the action and they believe further access to the information will have an adverse effect on their efforts to come to a resolution to this investigation.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

Another thing that disappeared from the City's website at the same time this statement was made is the City's reply to the ABC news report that the first person to interview Zimmerman was a narcotics officer.

When did this happen?

Concerned Papa
04-06-2012, 09:37 PM
Once the police report came out and I started plotting out what it told us, I realized that there could be a reason that the story of Mary Cutcher and her roommate, Selma Mora Lamilla, was being ignored. They told a much different version of GZ's tale of a skinny kid making him afraid for his life:

“So you saw Mr. Zimmerman on top of Trayvon Martin?” Cooper questioned.

“Trayvon, exactly,” Lamilla said.

“When you say on top of, how so?” the CNN anchor pressed.

“Straddling him,” Cutcher replied.

“His legs were straddling him?” Cooper followed up.

“One on each side, on his knees, with his hands on his back. I immediately thought, okay, obviously if it’s the shooter, he would have ran,” Cutcher detailed. “I thought he’s holding the wound, helping the guy taking a pulse, making sure he’s okay. When she called to him three times, everything okay, what’s going on? Each time he looked back, didn’t say anything and then the third time he finally said, ‘just call the police.’”

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/anderson-cooper-interviews-witnesses-to-trayvon-martin-shooting/

There are 3 attachments below. Working from left to right,

-first you will see 3 addresses shown on the image of the back sidewalk section.

-Then you will see a portion of Officer Timothy Smith's SPD narrative telling where the body was located between 2 residences.

-Last, look who owns the unit with the most likely bird's eye view for what happened.

LambChop
04-06-2012, 09:37 PM
If it was in the trunk I would have thought the officer would have taken it with him seeing how far they had to walk to get where they were going in that video. That would have been the only evidence he had.

I think it is a procedural safety issue. I do not think they would carry a loaded weapon in with the prisoner. I'm guessing but I think they would need to secure their prisoner first, then return to the trunk and bring the gun to the evidence room to have it marked. I remember riding with my husband one night in the Ride Along Program (once was enough) and them giving him something to put in his trunk (he was a homocide detective at the time) and we had to go down to the evidence room so he could get it logged in. Takes awhile, not just toss it and take off. lol Hubby was driving way too fast for me to get to the scene..........that was the end of the ride along for me. I don't know how they do it. I really don't....not for me. jmo

Dr.Fessel
04-06-2012, 09:38 PM
When did this happen?

I noticed it this morning. I think back on page five or so. Let me look for it.

rossva
04-06-2012, 09:40 PM
You are assuming Martin wouldn't have noticed Zimmerman sitting in his vehicle watching him. If, as Zimmerman claims, Martin attacked him, this could have still happened even if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle.


This argument always cracks me up. You are correct the dispatcher does not have the authority to ORDER him to stay in the car. However, they are trained by LE on how to handle volatile situations exactly like this. I don't care what brush you try to paint this with, at the very least Zimmerman acted irresponsibly by refusing to follow the dispatcher's trained response.

If Zimmerman had stayed in his car, Trayvon would not be dead NOR would Zimmerman be facing the backlash he is now.

That is a simple FACT.

highflyer
04-06-2012, 09:41 PM
Steven Seagal, in addition to being an actor, also serves as a reserve deputy sheriff in Jefferson Parish, Louisiana. In fact, he had his own reality program which rode along with him while he was performing his job and yes, he does have the power to arrest someone.




~jmo~

Great, a B movie actor is now being interviewed for the case. :banghead:

LambChop
04-06-2012, 09:42 PM
Once the police report came out and I started plotting out what it told us, I realized that there could be a reason that the story of Mary Cutcher and her roommate, Selma Mora Lamilla, was being ignored. They told a much different version of GZ's tale of a skinny kid making him afraid for his life:



There are 3 attachments below. Working from left to right,

-first you will see 3 addresses shown on the image of the back sidewalk section.

-Then you will see a portion of Officer Timothy Smith's SPD narrative telling where the body was located between 2 residences.

-Last, look who owns the unit with the most likely birds eye view for what happened.

Papa, you're the greatest.

Dr.Fessel
04-06-2012, 09:43 PM
WOW JUST WOW.


The office of the State Attorney, 4th Judicial Circuit, State Attorney Angela Corey has requested that the City of Sanford remove all reports, videos and audio pertaining to the Martin/Zimmerman case from the website. Their office has provided legal justification for the action and they believe further access to the information will have an adverse effect on their efforts to come to a resolution to this investigation.


http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

Bumping

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 09:44 PM
I have calmed down a little bit. Did this "new witness" who talked to CNN tonight give her name? I just want to make sure it isn't MC?

I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around an investigator telling any witness to a murder "who was doing what and when" when that witness is giving their statement to LE in a death investigation? Not only that it would happen once... with one witness... but a second time... with another witness? I just can't wrap my mind around it? I can't? Why would they even think they could get away with it?

You know, if there was that much corruption going on in that department, maybe Trayvon's purpose was to shine a bright light on it? I hope that with the investigation, the residents of Sanford, all of them, will, in the end, be left with a Police Department they can look up to and respect... and not a Police Department that they fear or feel pressured by.

MOO

m00c0w
04-06-2012, 09:46 PM
Once the police report came out and I started plotting out what it told us, I realized that there could be a reason that the story of Mary Cutcher and her roommate, Selma Mora Lamilla, was being ignored. They told a much different version of GZ's tale of a skinny kid making him afraid for his life:



There are 3 attachments below. Working from left to right,

-first you will see 3 addresses shown on the image of the back sidewalk section.

-Then you will see a portion of Officer Timothy Smith's SPD narrative telling where the body was located between 2 residences.

-Last, look who owns the unit with the most likely bird's eye view for what happened.
Birds-eye view of what? By their own admission, they weren't paying attention until after the shot. They only saw the aftermath, and even then, their stories still don't line up... Cutcher said they saw Zimmerman in two different positions when they went outside (as in, changed the position in different interviews), and their description of the sounds that were heard are clearly different from what was actually going on that night. JMO

jaded cat
04-06-2012, 09:46 PM
Thanks. It's interesting that the videotape doesn't have a time stamp that allows him to be more accurate about when Trayvon was there.

At a minimum, it took him 45 minutes to get back into the complex, or at any rate, 45 minutes (minimum) after purchasing the items he was still outside in the complex. Which leads to a question. What was he doing with that time? He wasn't going to the store and coming back, he was doing something else, likely innocent, but whatever it was is likely the reason he appeared suspicious to GZ.

He's 17, he's out of the house and on his own for an hour or so, he's got a girlfriend, he's got a cell phone with a blue tooth. He's walking about a mile or so there and a mile or so back. I can't pull anything suspicious out of his actions there. If it wasn't raining when he left home, he probably didn't have his hoodie up. When the rain started, he pulled it over his head. Still nothing suspicious that I can see.

My problems with GZ are two things. One, when the dispatcher said they didn't need him to do that, follow TM, he should have stayed where he was. No, it's not the direct command of a LEO but it's not just an offhand suggestion. He should have stood his ground at his truck.

Secondly, he brought a gun to a shouting match, at most a fist fight. There's no valid reason to have a gun when fists are involved. I consider it very unlikely that GZ was on the ground, screaming for help. He must have been a very busy man to accomplish all the things he said he did in that time period.

As my favorite TV judge always says, if it doesn't make sense, it didn't happen.

My wrath falls on the Sanford PD as much as GZ. I've been to Sanford 4 times. It's great if you're white and rich, but mostly white. Even if GZ didn't racially profile, the SPD damn sure did. Not one of those idiots thought to check out TM's cellphone and maybe call someone on his contact list? TV cops do that all the time!

No, the SPD had a dead, black teenager with no immediate ID and sat on their duffs until the next morning.

All of the above is strictly MOO. :twocents:

vlpate
04-06-2012, 09:47 PM
Steven Seagal, in addition to being an actor, also serves as a reserve deputy sheriff in Jefferson Parish, Louisiana. In fact, he had his own reality program which rode along with him while he was performing his job and yes, he does have the power to arrest someone.




~jmo~

Thanks, I had no idea. Louisiana has a whole other set of rules when it comes to law enforcement. :twocents::moo::fence:

Adrienne37
04-06-2012, 09:48 PM
George Zimmerman’s Lawyer Cites ‘Shaken Baby Syndrome’ in Trayvon Martin Shooting

But Uhrig's choice of words, and use of a recognized sign of child abuse to defend a 28-year-old man who killed a kid, seemed likely to raise more than just a few eyebrows.

"We're familiar with the Shaken Baby Syndrome," said Uhrig on the CBS This Morning program. "You shake a baby, the brain shakes around inside the skull. You can die when someone's pounding your head into the ground."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/06/us-usa-florida-shooting-idUSBRE8350D520120406

It's funny that all the major media organizations seem to understand what Uhrig had to say about shaken baby syndrome. It doesn't matter what his intention was, he should have never compared what happened to Zimmerman to shaken baby syndrome. This is a very real experience for a lot of parents and I would have thought with him being an attorney, he would have had the decency to choose his words a little more carefully. What an insult to a parent who has had to deal with this.


~jmo~

Adrienne37
04-06-2012, 09:50 PM
Papa, you're the greatest.

I'll second, third, and fourth that! Awesome job as always Papa!!




~jmo~

jaded cat
04-06-2012, 09:50 PM
You are assuming Martin wouldn't have noticed Zimmerman sitting in his vehicle watching him. If, as Zimmerman claims, Martin attacked him, this could have still happened even if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle.

TM may have seen or been keeping an eye out on GZ but it appears his primary goal was to get back to the house. He wasn't a thug or a gang banger, looking for a fight, he was a 17 yo, wanting to get back to the house to give the younger boy his Skittles.

He was also a visitor to the complex, he wouldn't have known anything about GZ or probably even the NW in that complex.

Isabelle
04-06-2012, 09:51 PM
Youthful offender program? What youthful offender program did GZ go into, link please.

I thought GZ was an adult when he went through anger management. Did LE kind of change that story, so it would sound better.

beach
04-06-2012, 09:53 PM
You are assuming Martin wouldn't have noticed Zimmerman sitting in his vehicle watching him. If, as Zimmerman claims, Martin attacked him, this could have still happened even if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle.

No, I'm not assuming that at all. In fact, I think it is probable that Martin did notice Zimmerman watching him while he was still in his vehicle.

I think Martin was acutely aware and anxious he was being watched but not truly afraid until Zimmerman followed on foot. If I were in that situation, that is when my anxiety would have escalated from mild fear to pure panic. I think that is a natural escalation, no?

Maybe I'm missing the point you are trying to make? I don't think for a minute that Trayvon would have approached Zimmerman's automobile if he remained in it.

Isabelle
04-06-2012, 09:54 PM
Thanks, I had no idea. Louisiana has a whole other set of rules when it comes to law enforcement. :twocents::moo::fence:

Actually Louisiana has a whole bother set of rules when it comes to Law itself, Napoleonic Law. I think there may be one other state that practices Napoleonic Law. I don't know the difference, but my DH keeps me informed.

Beyond Belief
04-06-2012, 09:54 PM
I still can't get a reasonable handle on what set this in motion. Wouldn't a young person who may see security guards at school, at the mall, believe that inside a gated community that someone checking him out just might be a security guard for the complex?

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 09:55 PM
I thought GZ was an adult when he went through anger management. Did LE kind of change that story, so it would sound better.

I thought he was 20-years-old?

Kinda funny using "youthful" with a 20-year-old, but 17-year-old Trayvon was an adult. :banghead:

MOO

Desdemona
04-06-2012, 09:57 PM
Unfortunately, or fortunately, we can agree to disagree. You say tomato, I say tomatoe. Thank you for your opinion, but the inference was there, or he wouldn't have said it. I am not the only one who feels this way. But thank you again for your insight. Defense attorney's are in the practice of throwing out anything they can against the wall to see if it will stick. Kind of reminds me of the JB defense with GA. JMOAh, yet again I seem to have misunderstood you! So sorry about that, and thanks for being civil about it. Please allow me to explain.

First I thought you were asking for clarification because you felt you might have misunderstood the CBS clip of Uhrig speaking. Then I thought you clarified that the inference was actually coming from the Huffpo article. My bad. Now I finally "get it" -- that it is you yourself who interpret Uhrig's remarks to mean that he implied GZ is/was suffering from SBS. No problem. Everyone has a right to his/her own interpretation.

Sheesh. There I was, attempting to "help" by providing information to clarify the issue. If I'd understood from your prior posts that the interpretation was your own considered opinion, I would never have said a word! I respect the right of each of us to have and express our own opinions.

Again, so sorry for misunderstanding. I promise I did not mean to argue! (Slinking off this thread now.... LOL)

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 09:57 PM
I still can't get a reasonable handle on what set this motion. Wouldn't a young person who may see security guards at school, at the mall, believe that inside a gated community that someone checking him out just might be a security guard for the complex?

School security, mall security, all have vehicles and uniforms that acknowledge who they are.

Zimmerman was just some guy in a truck?

MOO

ETA: In another neighborhood I lived in, they had hired security and they also wore uniforms and drove cars that clearly stated they were "security" and had a flashing light on top of the vehicle.

mercuriod
04-06-2012, 09:58 PM
bbm

The attorney did not hear the initial interview. He only heard the FOLLOW UP interview.

Doesn't mean he hasn't read the transcript or seen the video of the initial interview. Since the interview was with his client he would have legal access to it. Or gee maybe his client (you know the one that was interviewed) told him that.

jmo, imo and all that jazz

uvamerica
04-06-2012, 09:58 PM
If it was in the trunk I would have thought the officer would have taken it with him seeing how far they had to walk to get where they were going in that video. That would have been the only evidence he had.

Hmm, I remember seeing one of the cops put a coat/jacket in the trunk, but he took nothing out. I know some LE stations have a place (like a box or window)to drop off service weapons. Some parts of LE stations don't allow weapons. In Providence RI not that long ago a prisoner on the 2nd floor at the LE station disarmed a detective, shot him and jumped through the window. Guns are no longer allowed where prisoners are being questioned. Don't know if SPD had one though.

:moo::moo:

Isabelle
04-06-2012, 09:58 PM
I have calmed down a little bit. Did this "new witness" who talked to CNN tonight give her name? I just want to make sure it isn't MC?

I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around an investigator telling any witness to a murder "who was doing what and when" when that witness is giving their statement to LE in a death investigation? Not only that it would happen once... with one witness... but a second time... with another witness? I just can't wrap my mind around it? I can't? Why would they even think they could get away with it?

You know, if there was that much corruption going on in that department, maybe Trayvon's purpose was to shine a bright light on it? I hope that with the investigation, the residents of Sanford, all of them, will, in the end, be left with a Police Department they can look up to and respect... and not a Police Department that they fear or feel pressured by.

MOO

Could be she doesn't want to be identified and could be that investigators told her to keep her identity secret and not discuss what she witnessed. Think maybe she is afraid?!

highflyer
04-06-2012, 09:59 PM
I still can't get a reasonable handle on what set this motion. Wouldn't a young person who may see security guards at school, at the mall, believe that inside a gated community that someone checking him out just might be a security guard for the complex?

Why would you think someone following you was a security guard unless they were in a marked car, in a uniform or otherwise verbally identified themselves as such?

lisalei321
04-06-2012, 10:00 PM
I still can't get a reasonable handle on what set this motion. Wouldn't a young person who may see security guards at school, at the mall, believe that inside a gated community that someone checking him out just might be a security guard for the complex?

I think security guards wear uniforms. GZ was not in a uniform that I know of...

I'm pretty sure he'd of scared me'

JMO...

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk

Beyond Belief
04-06-2012, 10:01 PM
School security, mall security, all have vehicles and uniforms that acknowledge who they are.

Zimmerman was just some guy in a truck?

MOO

ETA: In another neighborhood I lived in, they had hired security and they also wore uniforms and drove cars that clearly stated they were "security" and had a flashing light on top of the vehicle.
I don't know, it was raining, some distance between them, and I don't think Trayvon had his glasses on, unless of course he used contact lenses.

Chris_Texas
04-06-2012, 10:01 PM
I agree with this - people should be able to walk around without fear of being suspected of doing more. Women should be able to walk at night without fear of being stalked and stared out, and made to feel afraid (real or imagined). I am staying away from home right now - not familiar with the neighborhood at all. Last night I went to walk my dogs and a guy was just standing around by the gates smoking. He watched me walk out and I could feel him watching while I walked and I started getting the creeps (my two chi-pins don't instill fear, they just annoy). I let them pee and started walking back to my place while one was still in mid stream. I couldn't get back in and lock the door fast enough.

This guy, and he was either spanish or white, hard to tell in the dark, really scared me. He wasn't doing anything but watching me. In my mind though, I know the guy could overtake me easily - so I made sure I was somewhere safe quickly. I had my cell, but I'd have felt really silly calling 911 at that point.

What I would not have done is say eff it, I have a right to be here as much as he does. Would I ask him what the he** he's looking at, no, that would be weird. So this is all on me ... until he starts following me - then I have to make some choices - a)take my bum home as fast as my legs will carry me, b)call 911, or c)put on my big girl panties and confront him. Of course I would choose "a" while simultaneously performing "b". "C", would not be an option - he could definitely take me, and he might have a gun. In Texas, the gun is always a pretty good bet.

Sounds scary.

So there is my sticking point - why didn't Trayvon just keep running all the way home if GZ was scaring him? The ONLY thing I can come up with is he wasn't scared and wanted to put a little fear into this a** 'le. Right or wrong, this is all I can come up with....and that it backfired, TM didn't consider there might be a gun.

He ran to where the guy with the car could no longer continue following him, then thinking he had lost him and that he was safe -- fifteen seconds run from his door -- he went back to talking to his girlfriend. With his hoodie up in the rain he never noticed GZ coming up behind him until it was too late.

When I get scared, I also get ticked off because I feel so helpless. I always think if I were a guy I could at least confront the jerks. So do I blame TM if this is what happened? Not at all - good for him. I just don't think anyone is going to buy that he was scared - and therefore, the arrest will never happen. I hate the SYG law as it applies to this case - but I hate more that Trayvon didn't just walk or run away from it. Guns give otherwise cowardly jerks confidence.

If Trayvon NEEDED to sprint all the way home in order to be safe from Zimmerman, if he needed to hide inside to avoid being killed, then the problem is not with Trayvon.

Trayvon had a right to be there, he had a right to be outside, he had a right to walk or stand on his own sidewalk, he had a right to not be harrassed, he had a right to ignore this clown, he had a right to STAND HIS GROUND. What Trayvon did instead was run. He ran away from the scary guy. He ran all the way to where the potential maniac in the car could no longer follow him, to where he was safe in the middle of all these houses.

Except he wasn't safe ever there.

Zimmerman, on the other hand, had no legal authority to do any of the things he did. Not as a private citizen, and not as a neighborhood watchman. He's not empowered to stop and question people he doesn't like and expect answers. Even the police cannot just stop random people and demand to know their identity and business. Nor was Zimmerman empowered to follow people around, scaring them. That's not his job, it's no one's job. Again, even the police are not allowed to follow people for no reason.

As scary as your encounter was, let's expand on it. Instead imagine that your creepy guy was following you as you took your walk. He's behind you in his car, so you cut through an ally. He's waiting on the far side. Staring, watching you, creeping along in his car. Then he gets out of his car in front of you. You have enough of this nut and you run for it.

Now YOU would likely go all the way home and then phone 911. I would too, and I am an adult male. But Trayvon was a young, black, teen boy -- and taken together that's a powerful disincentive to phone the police. Trayvon, Mr Macho, didn't even tell his girl that he had ran, he said just walked real fast. In short, he did what any teen boy would do, he got away from the nut and went back to his business. That business being girls.

We can stand back and critique Trayvon's survival performance. We can say 'If only he had done this or that, run here, jumped there, gone home, locked his door, climbed a tree, bought a snickers instead of skittles, or whatever.' That's okay to discuss when we are trying to figure out how to survive if we find ourselves hunted by a maniac, but let us not make the mistake of confusing our critique with assigning blame. We don't blame a woman for drinking at a party, or wearing a short dress, or looking attractive, we blame the monster who raped her. We don't blame the little girl helping the nice man find his 'lost puppy.' we blame the monster who slaughtered her.

And here, I don't blame the kid walking home from 7-11 in the rain with candy for his little brother. I blame the <mod snip> who hunted him down and killed him.

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 10:01 PM
Could be she doesn't want to be identified and could be that investigators told her to keep her identity secret and not discuss what she witnessed. Think maybe she is afraid?!

I don't know what to think? I was livid when investigators corrected MC... I am even more livid that it may have happened to another witness. And who would say such a thing to a witness?? "If it's any consolation, the guy screaming is alive?" The investigator wasn't there to witness who was screaming? He may have gotten that information from "John" but it is NOT his job to inform a witness to what another witness stated?

Witness statements very rarely match up... but it appears LE tried in vain to make all the witnesses story match. :banghead:

MOO

Adrienne37
04-06-2012, 10:01 PM
I still can't get a reasonable handle on what set this in motion. Wouldn't a young person who may see security guards at school, at the mall, believe that inside a gated community that someone checking him out just might be a security guard for the complex?

He wasn't a security guard for the complex. He wasn't a security anything for the complex. He was a self-appointed neighborhood watch "captain." He has no official capacity at that complex whatsoever. Nothing, nada. He was a renter in the community. He was no different from any other person living in that complex except he had a problem following the rules.


~jmo~

mercuriod
04-06-2012, 10:02 PM
Steven Segal, the actor?

Yes, he is also a deputy sheriff in Jefferson Parish, Louisiana, has been for over 20 years, don't know which was the "side" job acting or law enforcement.

jmo, imo and all that jazz

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 10:04 PM
I don't know, it was raining, some distance between them, and I don't think Trayvon had his glasses on, unless of course he used contact lenses.

Not according to Zimmerman? According to Zimmerman, Trayvon was walking towards him and checking him out? I'm sure if Zimmerman had "security" written on his vehicle with a "flashing light" and Zimmerman got out of the car in a "security uniform", Trayvon would not have been so scared.

MOO

Chris_Texas
04-06-2012, 10:04 PM
Has anybody insinuated he stole the items? I've never seen or heard such an insinuation.

Absolutely. People have even insinuated that his having $22 was suspicious. Yes, even here.

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 10:08 PM
Another thing, police even have warned people not to pull over for any car that could be mistaken for an unmarked police car while driving on a dark secluded road because so many police impersonations (robbing/kidnapping/killing). You're to call 911 and get confirmation that you are being pulled over by an actual Police Officer.

Beyond Belief
04-06-2012, 10:09 PM
He wasn't a security guard for the complex. He wasn't a security anything for the complex. He was a self-appointed neighborhood watch "captain." He has no official capacity at that complex whatsoever. Nothing, nada. He was a renter in the community. He was no different from any other person living in that complex except he had a problem following the rules.


~jmo~
We know that, but Trayvon wouldn't have known that.
.

Dr.Fessel
04-06-2012, 10:10 PM
School security, mall security, all have vehicles and uniforms that acknowledge who they are.

Zimmerman was just some guy in a truck?

MOO

ETA: In another neighborhood I lived in, they had hired security and they also wore uniforms and drove cars that clearly stated they were "security" and had a flashing light on top of the vehicle.

A guy in a truck.

Staring at him.

In a red coat.

Lookin about.

Something in his hand.

Following me.

Adrienne37
04-06-2012, 10:11 PM
We know that, but Trayvon wouldn't have known that.
.

No Trayvon probably thought he was the boogeyman, someone stalking him, someone following him, someone "checking him out." Trayvon was likely scared to death for good reason.



~jmo~

highflyer
04-06-2012, 10:12 PM
We know that, but Trayvon wouldn't have known that.
.

Trayvon had no reason whatsoever to believe that he was anything but a stalker. If you walked through a gated community and someone followed you would you assume they were security? I sure as heck wouldn't unless they were in a uniform or in a marked car.

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 10:15 PM
We know that, but Trayvon wouldn't have known that.
.

Even more reason for him to be scared! He had no idea who this guy was and why he was being followed.

When Trayvon was "checking Zimmerman out" while Zimmerman was on the phone with LE... why couldn't have Zimmerman simply asked "Yo! What's up Homie... are you new to the neighborhood?" If Trayvon got offended... it would have been caught on tape... Zimmerman would have been safely in his car... Police would have arrived and handled it?

MOO

mercuriod
04-06-2012, 10:15 PM
I guess I'm not following your thoughts . . .

It seems to me, that Bonaparte is taking issue with Tracy Martin's reporting than an officer called Zimmerman's record "squeaky clean". As in, no one said that to him.

I'm not sure about someone saying it, and someone else not correcting it.

It seems Bonaparte is saying no one said it.

Why, in the conversation where they inform parents that their minor child is dead, would the cop go on in detail that Zimmerman had been charged but went into a youthful offender program many years ago? I would think that wouldn't come up in an initial conversation about a deceased child.

Youthful offender program? What youthful offender program did GZ go into, link please.

I thought GZ was an adult when he went through anger management. Did LE kind of change that story, so it would sound better.

Isabelle, to answer your question, I don't know, I linked the post I was questioning where JeannaT stated that GZ went into a youthful offender program, and my question because I want to know where JeannaT got the "youthful offender program" information from, I do not believe this is true, I think it has been thrown out there trying to make GZ "look" better and I think it is untrue, which is why I asked for a link.

jmo, imo and all that jazz

jaded cat
04-06-2012, 10:18 PM
For me, by virtue of GZ claiming self-defense or SYG, he exposes himself to additional scrutiny. He must defend his decision to the authorities. What has been said by him, by his father, by his lawyers or anyone is open to interpretation of the law. No matter what the media is squawking about, GZ would be better served if he would shut up and tell family members/lawyers defending him to shut up.

A very small part of my heart goes out GZ because he will have to live with this nanosecond of bad judgement for the rest of his life. I'm sure he didn't leave his house that night expecting to shoot a young man to death. Death came unexpectedly.

Tragedy lives on. I can't imagine or even try to bear the grief of TM's parents. Not a perfect child but one they were certainly proud of.

Chris_Texas
04-06-2012, 10:18 PM
The misconception here, is that he doesn't have to have authority to follow someone who is in public, while waiting for LE to show up and investigate.

Where would we be, as a society, if you saw something you thought was suspicious and you don't have a right to keep an eye on the person while the cop you just called is on the way?

Every American has the right to be left alone unless they are doing something illegal. Neither private citizens nor the police have the right or authority to follow, stop, or question random people when there is no probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed.

doubt
04-06-2012, 10:24 PM
In my earlier posts regarding his interview with Sean Hannity, I had been calling GZ's father Richard. His name is Robert. Thanks for not beating me over the head with that, but I think we owe Robert a big round of thanks because in <modsnip> he told in this interview, for the first time that I'm aware of, we are being told where George's truck was parked when he got out of it to follow TM.

With that mystery finally solved, let's take a look at what we KNOW <modsnip> for the rest of his story.

A LIE?

How do we know, you ask? Because every one of us HEARD what happened while the events of Robert Zimmerman's tale unfolded. We HEARD, and we HAVE the transcripts to prove it! Take a look at the image below:

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMRZ.png

(a) We know that GZ got out of his car and began following TM at [2:08] into the 911 call. We've all even heard his door alarm pinging as he exits the vehicle.

(b) We also know that 18 seconds later, at [2:26] we heard:

Using our documented walking rate for an adult male of 4.4 feet/sec, we can place the distance walked in this 18 seconds by GZ at 79 feet when he was asked/told/advised to discontinue following TM.

(c) Notice what RZ told Sean Hannity at this point:

He is saying that GZ continued walking down the sidewalk to the next street AFTER being told to stop following TM which is a distance of 140 feet from point to point. Using our 4.4 feet per second rule, that would put him at the end of the sidewalk at [2:58].

(d) Next Robert Zimmerman tells us this:

The distance shown above in yellow returning to "where the sidewalks meet" is 97 feet. Our distance/time calculation shows 22 seconds being required to arrive at the point where Robert Zimmerman says TM brutally attacked his son at [3:20].

<modsnip> Go to any 911 recording and listen. Go to any 911 transcript and read:

GEORGE ZIMMERMAN WAS STILL TALKING TO THE 911 DISPATCHER when Robert Zimmerman says TM brutally attacked and beat his son. In fact, it is then and only then that the dispatcher asked GZ for an address for where he was parked!

I don't know what else there is to say. <modsnip>

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/04/05/exclusive-george-zimmermans-father-defends-son-trayvon-martin-shooting?page=1

this is an excellent post.....just outstanding. thanks for sharing.

csziggy
04-06-2012, 10:28 PM
Wonder who the Officer was and I wonder if George showed them the cool gun he was packing.
On 09/23/2011 GZ called in to SPD about and open garage and to let them know about the meeting with Sgt. Herix the night before.

It's in the 911 call history for GZ that I downloaded from the Sanford site, but since that is no longer on the site, I can't give a link. That information is probably available at some media site, but I stuck to getting information directly from the source.

Since no link, IMO, JMO, etc.

mercuriod
04-06-2012, 10:29 PM
Sounds scary.



He ran to where the guy with the car could no longer continue following him, then thinking he had lost him and that he was safe -- fifteen seconds run from his door -- he went back to talking to his girlfriend. With his hoodie up in the rain he never noticed GZ coming up behind him until it was too late.



If Trayvon NEEDED to sprint all the way home in order to be safe from Zimmerman, if he needed to hide inside to avoid being killed, then the problem is not with Trayvon.

Trayvon had a right to be there, he had a right to be outside, he had a right to walk or stand on his own sidewalk, he had a right to not be harrassed, he had a right to ignore this clown, he had a right to STAND HIS GROUND. What Trayvon did instead was run. He ran away from the scary guy. He ran all the way to where the potential maniac in the car could no longer follow him, to where he was safe in the middle of all these houses.

Except he wasn't safe ever there.

Zimmerman, on the other hand, had no legal authority to do any of the things he did. Not as a private citizen, and not as a neighborhood watchman. He's not empowered to stop and question people he doesn't like and expect answers. Even the police cannot just stop random people and demand to know their identity and business. Nor was Zimmerman empowered to follow people around, scaring them. That's not his job, it's no one's job. Again, even the police are not allowed to follow people for no reason.

As scary as your encounter was, let's expand on it. Instead imagine that your creepy guy was following you as you took your walk. He's behind you in his car, so you cut through an ally. He's waiting on the far side. Staring, watching you, creeping along in his car. Then he gets out of his car in front of you. You have enough of this nut and you run for it.

Now YOU would likely go all the way home and then phone 911. I would too, and I am an adult male. But Trayvon was a young, black, teen boy -- and taken together that's a powerful disincentive to phone the police. Trayvon, Mr Macho, didn't even tell his girl that he had ran, he said just walked real fast. In short, he did what any teen boy would do, he got away from the nut and went back to his business. That business being girls.

We can stand back and critique Trayvon's survival performance. We can say 'If only he had done this or that, run here, jumped there, gone home, locked his door, climbed a tree, bought a snickers instead of skittles, or whatever.' That's okay to discuss when we are trying to figure out how to survive if we find ourselves hunted by a maniac, but let us not make the mistake of confusing our critique with assigning blame. We don't blame a woman for drinking at a party, or wearing a short dress, or looking attractive, we blame the monster who raped her. We don't blame the little girl helping the nice man find his 'lost puppy.' we blame the monster who slaughtered her.

And here, I don't blame the kid walking home from 7-11 in the rain with candy for his little brother. I blame the monster who hunted him down and killed him.

One THANK YOU doesn't seem enough for this post but that is all the setup would allow me to give you so.... I just have to say :tyou: :tyou: :tyou: :tyou: :tyou:

Isabelle
04-06-2012, 10:31 PM
Concerned Papa, you should be an investigator. You would be freakn awesome!

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 10:37 PM
In my earlier posts regarding his interview with Sean Hannity, I had been calling GZ's father Richard. His name is Robert. Thanks for not beating me over the head with that, but I think we owe Robert a big round of thanks because in <modsnip> he told in this interview, for the first time that I'm aware of, we are being told where George's truck was parked when he got out of it to follow TM.

With that mystery finally solved, let's take a look at what we KNOW <modsnip> for the rest of his story.

A LIE?

How do we know, you ask? Because every one of us HEARD what happened while the events of Robert Zimmerman's tale unfolded. We HEARD, and we HAVE the transcripts to prove it! Take a look at the image below:

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMRZ.png

(a) We know that GZ got out of his car and began following TM at [2:08] into the 911 call. We've all even heard his door alarm pinging as he exits the vehicle.

(b) We also know that 18 seconds later, at [2:26] we heard:

Using our documented walking rate for an adult male of 4.4 feet/sec, we can place the distance walked in this 18 seconds by GZ at 79 feet when he was asked/told/advised to discontinue following TM.

(c) Notice what RZ told Sean Hannity at this point:

He is saying that GZ continued walking down the sidewalk to the next street AFTER being told to stop following TM which is a distance of 140 feet from point to point. Using our 4.4 feet per second rule, that would put him at the end of the sidewalk at [2:58].

(d) Next Robert Zimmerman tells us this:

The distance shown above in yellow returning to "where the sidewalks meet" is 97 feet. Our distance/time calculation shows 22 seconds being required to arrive at the point where Robert Zimmerman says TM brutally attacked his son at [3:20].

<modsnip> Go to any 911 recording and listen. Go to any 911 transcript and read:

GEORGE ZIMMERMAN WAS STILL TALKING TO THE 911 DISPATCHER when Robert Zimmerman says TM brutally attacked and beat his son. In fact, it is then and only then that the dispatcher asked GZ for an address for where he was parked!

I don't know what else there is to say. <modsnip>

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/04/05/exclusive-george-zimmermans-father-defends-son-trayvon-martin-shooting?page=1

This is what confuses me about the whole story...

George gets out of his car and walks all the way over to where the other street is... so he passes that long sidewalk and he doesn't see Trayvon so he proceeds to the other street to check the address and begins walking back to his truck when Trayvon jumps him from behind? Where was Trayvon hiding that entire time? Looking where the back of the buildings would be and where the sidewalk is... it looks really open? Maybe I'm missing something like big trees or something because I just don't see where he could have been hiding?

Are the porches screened in at this complex? I would think so?

MOO

Adrienne37
04-06-2012, 10:37 PM
Concerned Papa, you should be an investigator. You would be freakn awesome!

I vote we all send Concerned Papa to Sanford to give the police a taste of a real investigator!!


~jmo~

LaLaw2000
04-06-2012, 10:38 PM
What ripped it for me from the beginning was that GZ was told by the dispatcher, "We do not need you to do that", when it was clear he was running after Trayvon YET he (GZ) continued to do so.

IMO, every word in the beginning of GZ's 911 tape was profiling Trayvon. I will absolutely never understand if GZ is not charged/indited. From my perspective, GZ gave up the right to a SYG defense when he deliberately followed Trayvon.

My late husband was retired LE,and was an LE supervisor. He was never less than thorough and expected his officers to be as well. This investigation was not thorough, IMO, and I am incensed. I hate to say it, but I do think this PD really hoped Trayvon's homicide would stay under that rug they swept it under.

I really hope this investigation with ACory will be thorough and bring justice for Trayvon! We will see.

MOO's

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 10:40 PM
Concerned Papa, you should be an investigator. You would be freakn awesome!

I know!! I so want to hire him next time I suspect a boyfriend might be cheating!! :floorlaugh:

Seriously (not that I'm not 100% serious about the above sentence), amazing job, Concerned Papa! You are really appreciated here!

raeann
04-06-2012, 10:40 PM
This! I know that is what would be going on in my mind? Boys are not exempt from this form of evil... it's actually becoming more and more common for boys to be the victims of these <I'm modslipping myself>

I would guess that most black young men in the south have been told the story of Wayne Williams at some point in time....good enough reason right there to be wary of ANYONE watching and stalking them in the dark....

jmo

vlpate
04-06-2012, 10:41 PM
Who is this witness in silhouette on Ashley Banfield? GZ sure did a lot of things in the 4 seconds between the gun shot and the officer arriving at the scene. He says a guy came out with a flashlight, he thought it might be George's friend and they might have talked to each other????? Maybe the reason investigators for the SA didn't spend much time with this witness is because the person with the flashlight was an officer? Another witness saw GZ crouched over TM and another heard him say "call police" and put his hands over his head.

"If it makes you feel any better the person who was yelling for help is alive". Give me a break. This person was four feet away and saw everything. Right.

Give me a break!!!!

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 10:43 PM
Who is this witness in silhouette on Ashley Banfield? GZ sure did a lot of things in the 4 seconds between the gun shot and the officer arriving at the scene. He says a guy came out with a flashlight, he thought it might be George's friend and they might have talked to each other????? Maybe the reason investigators for the SA didn't spend much time with this witness is because the person with the flashlight was an officer? Another witness saw GZ crouched over TM and another heard him say "call police" and put his hands over his head.

"If it makes you feel any better the person who was yelling for help is alive". Give me a break. This person was four feet away and saw everything. Right.

Give me a break!!!!

Her story is just as credible as "John" who was so close he seen George screaming?

MOO

ETA: MC came out a long time ago saying LE "corrected" her statement. So if this is a completely different witness, not related to MC, I believe it. I'm wondering if "John" wasn't also told that it was "George" screaming and that is how he came to that conclusion?

MOO

mercuriod
04-06-2012, 10:44 PM
What ripped it for me from the beginning was that GZ was told by the dispatcher, "We do not need you to do that", when it was clear he was running after Trayvon YET he (GZ) continued to do so.

IMO, every word in the beginning of GZ's 911 tape was profiling Trayvon. I will absolutely never understand if GZ is not charged/indited. From my perspective, GZ gave up the right to a SYG defense when he deliberately followed Trayvon.

My late husband was retired LE,and was an LE supervisor. He was never less than thorough and expected his officers to be as well. This investigation was not thorough, IMO, and I am incensed. I hate to say it, but I do think this PD really hoped Trayvon's homicide would stay under that rug they swept it under.

I really hope this investigation with ACory will be thorough and bring justice for Trayvon! We will see.

MOO's

I hope the investigation from Ms. Cory is thorough too, in some ways I have faith that it will be (I am from one county over from where she is SA) because she is known to be tough on crime. But in other ways I fear it will not be for several reasons, she is also known to be a strong advocate of the local police (my fear is she will be biased and think that Sanford LE can do no wrong) and also because she will have to be overriding what another SA has already "ruled", they are "comrades in arms" so to speak, will she really rule that another SA was dead wrong? Hope I am wrong but....

jmo, imo and all that jazz

LambChop
04-06-2012, 10:45 PM
Trayvon had no reason whatsoever to believe that he was anything but a stalker. If you walked through a gated community and someone followed you would you assume they were security? I sure as heck wouldn't unless they were in a uniform or in a marked car.

If GZ were security he would have identified himself when TM was at the clubhouse when TM was right there within earshot. jmo

Isabelle
04-06-2012, 10:46 PM
There were a lot of people questioning whether he went to 7-11. Some even said he could have been carrying the Skittles and Tea for days? Some even wanted receipts?

So yes, it is a very significant piece of the puzzle and I wish we could see the actual tape.

MOO

And some even insinuated that he went out to buy something other than Skittles and Iced Tea. Oh, and couldn't understand why TM would have as much as $22 on him, as if that was a lot of $!

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 10:51 PM
I just gave myself a "light bulb" moment?? What if this "John" witness was also told by "investigators" that it was "George" screaming and he just took LE's word for it and that is the reason the media has that statement from him?? He hasn't spoken out publicly since?

Now that we have possibly TWO incidents where the investigator puts it into a witnesses head that it was George screaming, I think it is fair to ask if the same thing happened with "John?"

MOO

LambChop
04-06-2012, 10:54 PM
Once the police report came out and I started plotting out what it told us, I realized that there could be a reason that the story of Mary Cutcher and her roommate, Selma Mora Lamilla, was being ignored. They told a much different version of GZ's tale of a skinny kid making him afraid for his life:



There are 3 attachments below. Working from left to right,

-first you will see 3 addresses shown on the image of the back sidewalk section.

-Then you will see a portion of Officer Timothy Smith's SPD narrative telling where the body was located between 2 residences.

-Last, look who owns the unit with the most likely bird's eye view for what happened.



If the police report is correct how did TM's body get so far away from the cut through where GZ was suppose to be walking and TM jumped him? jmo

LaLaw2000
04-06-2012, 10:55 PM
I hope the investigation from Ms. Cory is thorough too, in some ways I have faith that it will be (I am from one county over from where she is SA) because she is known to be tough on crime. But in other ways I fear it will not be for several reasons, she is also known to be a strong advocate of the local police (my fear is she will be biased and think that Sanford LE can do no wrong) and also because she will have to be overriding what another SA has already "ruled", they are "comrades in arms" so to speak, will she really rule that another SA was dead wrong? Hope I am wrong but....

jmo, imo and all that jazz

BBM:

Thanks for your info on ACory, mercuroid.

The one reason I believe ACory will really try to do a good and thorough investigation is because the country's eyes are upon her right now. The FBI and the Department of Justice are also involved now. This is a whole lot bigger than just two comrades up against each other, IMO.

One thing I do not like, though, is the 15 minutes (only) special investigators gave to the witness that was on with Ashleigh Banfield this evening. They shouldn't be working with time constraints, IMO. This is just too important to rush through any witnesses' interview.

I am looking forward to seeing what, if anything, developes on Tuesday and whether a Grand Jury is convened. OR, will there be straight out charges by ACory?

We will see!

Beyond Belief
04-06-2012, 10:59 PM
If GZ were security he would have identified himself when TM was at the clubhouse when TM was right there within earshot. jmo
That makes sense. I think even the uncover people who you find in sears and places like that would idenitify themselves if the person they were observing was on them.
I definitely think an uncover officer would.

I am lining up information which I will share with my wayward grandson.

As far as GZ, he got himself in to this and he's going to have to save his own backside if he can as far as I am concerned.

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 11:00 PM
If the police report is correct how did TM's body get so far away from the cut through where GZ was suppose to be walking and TM jumped him? jmo

Super powers? :banghead:

None of it makes any sense. None of it.

Going back to wanting all the previously released documents taken off the Sanford Police site... I'm thinking they may have found something hinky that doesn't match up to what evidence they've uncovered? If those documents are now being used for another investigation... it would make sense that they wanted them to be pulled? Right?

MOO

csziggy
04-06-2012, 11:00 PM
I would think the Higher ups of the franchise probably have some policy about keeping tapes for legal reasons. Especially with a huge national uproar. JMO IMO & MOO
Yes, I bet at trial the security expert for that 7-Eleven is called to testify about the whole security setup, who had access, control and custody of the tapes, etc.

Remember at the Casey Anthony trial when they dragged in the experts from Cindy's employer to testify about her emails, times in and out, all in excruciating detail?

I wonder if anyone has checked to see if GZ shows up on any tapes at Target? Maybe he was coming back rather than leaving the subdivision?

IMO, JMO, etc.

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 11:06 PM
among every other disturbing aspect here, it boggles my mind to read that even now, today, an official from sanford sees nothing wrong with claiming that tm's father is ''misconstruing'' the facts.

if i didn't know better, i'd think the employees of the city of sanford were conspiring to rid florida of all the tourists! just wow!

This is what really bothers me... when there is an ongoing investigation, most of the time, the parents don't even know the details of how their child was murdered, etc... Sure, they'll know the part about him being shot... but not what any "suspects" say or whatever. It seems like they tried really hard to just convince Trayvon's parents that George did nothing wrong and they expected them to just take their word for it? So, while LE was trying to convince Trayvon's parents, they told Trayvon's parents things that they shouldn't have because they had already decided there was no investigation needed?

I hope this makes sense?

MOO

LambChop
04-06-2012, 11:07 PM
Super powers? :banghead:

None of it makes any sense. None of it.

Going back to wanting all the previously released documents taken off the Sanford Police site... I'm thinking they may have found something hinky that doesn't match up to what evidence they've uncovered? If those documents are now being used for another investigation... it would make sense that they wanted them to be pulled? Right?

MOO

With this lady coming forward maybe they wanted those 911 calls removed. Does not give the people of Sanford the warm and fuzzies. Could this be the same lady who claims she called 911 and LE kept trying to change her statement????? jmo

LambChop
04-06-2012, 11:08 PM
This is what really bothers me... when there is an ongoing investigation, most of the time, the parents don't even know the details of how their child was murdered, etc... Sure, they'll know the part about him being shot... but not what any "suspects" say or whatever. It seems like they tried really hard to just convince Trayvon's parents that George did nothing wrong and they expected them to just take their word for it? So, while LE was trying to convince Trayvon's parents, they told Trayvon's parents things that they shouldn't have because they had already decided there was no investigation needed?

I hope this makes sense?

MOO

Perfect. jmo

LambChop
04-06-2012, 11:10 PM
I'm getting really, really bad. Now when I type an email I automatically put..."jmo". Then I have to go back and delete it. I need a vacation.

vlpate
04-06-2012, 11:11 PM
This is what confuses me about the whole story...

George gets out of his car and walks all the way over to where the other street is... so he passes that long sidewalk and he doesn't see Trayvon so he proceeds to the other street to check the address and begins walking back to his truck when Trayvon jumps him from behind? Where was Trayvon hiding that entire time? Looking where the back of the buildings would be and where the sidewalk is... it looks really open? Maybe I'm missing something like big trees or something because I just don't see where he could have been hiding?

Are the porches screened in at this complex? I would think so?

MOO
No, many of them have no sort of enclosure at all. You can see them in the video with Tracy Martin.

Nova
04-06-2012, 11:13 PM
...I don't blame the kid walking home from 7-11 in the rain with candy for his little brother. I blame the monster who hunted him down and killed him.

Am I the only one who thinks GZ's story flies in the face of the history of race relations in Florida?

Travon Martin was a middle-class black teen in a Southern state. To my knowledge, he wasn't an angel, but he had no known history of gang involvement or violent offenses.

And he is visiting a condo owned by his father's gf within a gated complex in a town hundreds of miles from his home.

And we're supposed to believe he hid and jumped one of the white neighbors?

Trayvon had no way of knowing who GZ was, but he could reasonably assume GZ was a resident of the complex. Trayvon had no transportation to get away from the scene of any crime he might commit. Trayvon had no transportation to flee the jurisdiction and return to Miami until his father was ready to travel (the following day at the earliest).

Trayvon had a century of history telling him that in a dispute with a white resident (remember TM was only a guest), the police are most likely to side with the white guy.

Why in the hell would Trayvon Martin take the risk of "jumping" and beating GZ? If he took that risk, he must have been scared out of his wits; i.e., he had already seen the gun.

vlpate
04-06-2012, 11:15 PM
I'm getting really, really bad. Now when I type an email I automatically put..."jmo". Then I have to go back and delete it. I need a vacation.

:floorlaugh: That's hilarious - I emailed my 76 yr. old mom last week giving her my thoughts on my brothers chemo - at the end I wrote JMO - she emailed me back later and said she couldn't find anything on "JMO" lmao. God bless her for trying to google it though!

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 11:15 PM
With this lady coming forward maybe they wanted those 911 calls removed. Does not give the people of Sanford the warm and fuzzies. Could this be the same lady who claims she called 911 and LE kept trying to change her statement????? jmo


Mary is the one who when LE questioned her the night of the shooting, she tried to tell them that it was Trayvon screaming, but the investigator corrected her and told her that it was George screaming. She also said she tried to get into contact with LE but they ignored her calls?

I don't think this is the same woman who went on CNN tonight because Mary has never been shy about showing her face to the cameras? Whoever this woman is, she claims close to the same thing Mary has claimed though, except Mary never told us that LE told her "If it's any consolation, the guy screaming is alive." Or whatever it was she said the officer told her?

Which is why I believe we now have TWO instances where this investigator put information into the heads of witnesses and that this "John" witness could have just as easily had it happen to him too and took LE's word for it... so when he was interviewed at his apartment, he would say it was George screaming??

It's just something to think about? Wish "John" would do another interview just to make sure this isn't what happened?

MOO

Chris_Texas
04-06-2012, 11:17 PM
I still can't get a reasonable handle on what set this in motion. Wouldn't a young person who may see security guards at school, at the mall, believe that inside a gated community that someone checking him out just might be a security guard for the complex?

Malls and schools have uniformed security or even police.

HAD Trayvon assumed that the weird dude following him around was security he would have been incorrect. Zimmerman was not security, he was nothing more than a private citizen who had attended a seminar on how to dial 911.

Again, Zimmerman was not security, he was not an almost-cop, he was a dude running around with a gun playing cop. He had no authority to follow, stop, or question anyone -- and certainly not a juvenile.

daisy7
04-06-2012, 11:17 PM
And, they never released John's 911 call, right?

katydid23
04-06-2012, 11:20 PM
Doesn't mean he hasn't read the transcript or seen the video of the initial interview. Since the interview was with his client he would have legal access to it. Or gee maybe his client (you know the one that was interviewed) told him that.

jmo, imo and all that jazz

But the intervierw he was referring to, where he said it was shorter than what Banfield did on tv, THAT was the follow up interview. That is what my point was.

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 11:22 PM
And, they never released John's 911 call, right?

I think "John" might have been the first 911 call released? For some reason, I keep thinking he said his name was "John?" I could be wrong too??

LambChop
04-06-2012, 11:25 PM
Am I the only one who thinks GZ's story flies in the face of the history of race relations in Florida?

Travon Martin was a middle-class black teen in a Southern state. To my knowledge, he wasn't an angel, but he had no known history of gang involvement or violent offenses.

And he is visiting a condo owned by his father's gf within a gated complex in a town hundreds of miles from his home.

And we're supposed to believe he hid and jumped one of the white neighbors?

Trayvon had no way of knowing who GZ was, but he could reasonably assume GZ was a resident of the complex. Trayvon had no transportation to get away from the scene of any crime he might commit. Trayvon had no transportation to flee the jurisdiction and return to Miami until his father was ready to travel (the following day at the earliest).

Trayvon had a century of history telling him that in a dispute with a white resident (remember TM was only a guest), the police are most likely to side with the white guy.

Why in the hell would Trayvon Martin take the risk of "jumping" and beating GZ? If he took that risk, he must have been scared out of his wits; i.e., he had already seen the gun.

Now that makes sense. Thanks.

CathyinTexas
04-06-2012, 11:28 PM
I wish we had at least a name for this witness or a idea of what she saw? Is it MC? Or would it be the woman from the call where we heard the actual shot fired?

My guess is her version differs with GZ as we know the SPD or DA chose to believe him and we have heard other witnesses said they were leaning toward GZ's story and ignoring what they said. jmo

Concerned Papa
04-06-2012, 11:32 PM
If the police report is correct how did TM's body get so far away from the cut through where GZ was suppose to be walking and TM jumped him? jmo

It never was there, IMO. Remember, while not exactly the same as the wording of the SPD narrative, Tracy Martin showed us where the body was found while he was very near to 1231 Twin Trees.

Between these two sources, I think it's safe to say Robert Zimmerman's tale is further proven as false.

csziggy
04-06-2012, 11:33 PM
I have another question?? The officer's who brought Zimmerman to the station... would they have had the gun or would that have been left with the detectives on the scene?

I would love to see the chain of custody that gun went through that night? Fingerprints should be very easy to obtain since LE got there so quick. Zimmerman and Trayvon's fingerprints should be on the gun.

MOO

On that initial report, Officer Timothy Smith is the one who GZ originally told he was armed, who collected the weapon from GZ's waistband and handcuffed GZ. Officer Smith put the gun into evidence as TS-1. Third and fourth pages of the report if you can find it online.

IMO, JMO, etc. because I can't give a link.

vlpate
04-06-2012, 11:35 PM
Her story is just as credible as "John" who was so close he seen George screaming?

MOO

ETA: MC came out a long time ago saying LE "corrected" her statement. So if this is a completely different witness, not related to MC, I believe it. I'm wondering if "John" wasn't also told that it was "George" screaming and that is how he came to that conclusion?

MOO

Four feet away? That's the length of a seven year old - this witness could have seen food in GZ's teeth. The SA is not an idiot - if this person had a credible account, she would not be on CNN talking to Banfield.
JMO!

Beyond Belief
04-06-2012, 11:36 PM
Following Nova's post on why Trayvon would attack Zimmerman is driving me crazy. I cannot find a reason. I also cannot logically sort out why Zimmerman would pull his gun. If he was going to hold him at gunpoint until the police arrived he would have been in all kinds of hot water.

Something happened there that we don't know about. JMO

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 11:36 PM
I have thought all along that the reason there was any altercation was because Trayvon knew Zimmerman had a gun. I believe when Zimmerman caught back up with Trayvon (which I believe is what happened) he either already had the gun out or he was pulling it out and that is when I believe the altercation started. I think Trayvon may have tried to push George away, but George got a hold either his arm or jacket and that is when Trayvon turned and punched him in the face and then it was a life or death struggle for Trayvon to get the gun away from George.

The saddest part about this whole situation is... Had Trayvon gotten that gun and shot George... he would be sitting in jail facing at least 2nd degree murder charges. It wouldn't matter what he told LE, he would have been arrested for George Zimmerman's death. He could have screamed from the rooftops that he was only protecting himself, but imo, that wouldn't matter?

MOO

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 11:38 PM
Four feet away? That's the length of a seven year old - this witness could have seen food in GZ's teeth. The SA is not an idiot - if this person had a credible account, she would not be on CNN talking to Banfield.
JMO!

You don't think the SA has talked to her? She said it was Sanford Police who wouldn't talk to her?

We'll just have to see how this all comes about?

I have a question, let's say Zimmerman never does get charged?? Can all these reports be released? Would they still be considered public record since there was an investigation?

csziggy
04-06-2012, 11:40 PM
If I was a witness to a murder that has become this high profile, I would get an attorney too. No one wants to get Kronked!
I think she meant she held her phone up to the window screen so the operator could hear the screams better.

If that is true, her call is not any of the ones that were on the Sanford site until today unless the one call with the screams and shot on it was redacted. That part is not in any of the calls. I downloaded them all and have listened to every one at least three times, looking for objective information.

Some of the other details I heard tonight on CNN in Ashley Banfield's interview also don't match any of the calls I have listened to. I'll have to find the video tomorrow and review it to check.

Wasn't there a rumor floated here some days ago that there was one 911 call that had not been released? It was about the time the Chicago station had the screw up about the 911 call from Trayvon's phone and any discussion got buried in all that folderol.

IMO, JMO, etc.

TonyGatto
04-06-2012, 11:41 PM
This is what confuses me about the whole story...

George gets out of his car and walks all the way over to where the other street is... so he passes that long sidewalk and he doesn't see Trayvon so he proceeds to the other street to check the address and begins walking back to his truck when Trayvon jumps him from behind? Where was Trayvon hiding that entire time? Looking where the back of the buildings would be and where the sidewalk is... it looks really open? Maybe I'm missing something like big trees or something because I just don't see where he could have been hiding?

Are the porches screened in at this complex? I would think so?

MOO

I was under the impression that they made a right turn to go in between the homes.

vlpate
04-06-2012, 11:41 PM
Mary is the one who when LE questioned her the night of the shooting, she tried to tell them that it was Trayvon screaming, but the investigator corrected her and told her that it was George screaming. She also said she tried to get into contact with LE but they ignored her calls?
I thought MC said no one was screaming and there was no fight that she heard - she just heard whimpering and moaning.

<respectfully snipped>

mercuriod
04-06-2012, 11:44 PM
I have thought all along that the reason there was any altercation was because Trayvon knew Zimmerman had a gun. I believe when Zimmerman caught back up with Trayvon (which I believe is what happened) he either already had the gun out or he was pulling it out and that is when I believe the altercation started. I think Trayvon may have tried to push George away, but George got a hold either his arm or jacket and that is when Trayvon turned and punched him in the face and then it was a life or death struggle for Trayvon to get the gun away from George.

The saddest part about this whole situation is... Had Trayvon gotten that gun and shot George... he would be sitting in jail facing at least 2nd degree murder charges. It wouldn't matter what he told LE, he would have been arrested for George Zimmerman's death. He could have screamed from the rooftops that he was only protecting himself, but imo, that wouldn't matter?

MOO

I think that GZ saw TM walking towards his dad's gf's back door as GZ was making his return trip, came up behind TM and grabbed him to "hold" him there for when the police arrive, he didn't want TM to get away before the police got there, as had happened so many times after GZ called the police on all the many "suspicious" kids he had already called them about in the past, remember "these a$$holes always get away". The police were probably sick of GZ, he knew they saw him as a fool who was always wasting their time, this time he was going to have "his person" in hand when they got there so not to look like the idiot he has always been in the past. I think when GZ grabbed TM, TM fought back (I know I sure as he l l would have) and was getting the better of "big man" GZ and GZ was not going to put up with that so he killed TM out of anger.

jmo, imo and all that jazz

LambChop
04-06-2012, 11:48 PM
Following Nova's post on why Trayvon would attack Zimmerman is driving me crazy. I cannot find a reason. I also cannot logically sort out why Zimmerman would pull his gun. If he was going to hold him at gunpoint until the police arrived he would have been in all kinds of hot water.

Something happened there that we don't know about. JMO

Maybe TM grabbed the barrel and was trying to get it away from GZ, or TM was just trying to get away. RZ claims GZ said TM fell backwards after he was shot and we know that is not true TM was found face down. Had TM tried to get away and was part way up when shot he could have turned and fell flat with his hands underneath him.

Plus on PaPa's map, look at how far down they were from the cut through path. How would they have gotten that far away if TM jumped GZ on that cut through sidewalk as GZ's father is claiming. If GZ were telling the truth we'd be able to see it. jmo

vlpate
04-06-2012, 11:49 PM
When they know the cause of death why would a drug test be necessary? TM broke no laws and it was not considered a "drug" case. jmo

Someone commented on this the other day - they said it is routine to do toxicology tests during certain autopsies. Not sure if this is true.

How do we know a drug screen was done on TM?

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 11:49 PM
I was under the impression that they made a right turn to go in between the homes.

We know Trayvon made that right.

What George's father is saying is that George walked over to the next street to get the address (you're not going to get the street address from the back of the building). So George had to have passed that long sidewalk (the one where the altercation would soon take place) and he didn't see Trayvon because he continued to the next street to write down the address (wonder if he had a pen and paper on him with the address written down??).

So, according to Zimmerman's father, Trayvon had to have been hiding somewhere in that area and as Zimmerman was making his way back to his truck, Trayvon came out of nowhere and jumped him from behind. Which I find quite amazing how someone can come up from behind you, hit your in the nose and you fall back on the ground. I would think if he was punched from the back, he would have fallen forward and not backwards?

But like everything else, it just doesn't make any sense?

MOO

vlpate
04-06-2012, 11:51 PM
Maybe TM grabbed the barrel and was trying to get it away from GZ, or TM was just trying to get away. RZ claims GZ said TM fell backwards after he was shot and we know that is not true TM was found face down. Had TM tried to get away and was part way up when shot he could have turned and fell flat with his hands underneath him.

Plus on PaPa's map, look at how far down they were from the cut through path. How would they have gotten that far away if TM jumped GZ on that cut through sidewalk as GZ's father is claiming. If GZ were telling the truth we'd be able to see it. jmo

GZ said he was on the cut through street while he was on the line with the dispatcher - could GZ's father mean the cut through street?

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 11:52 PM
I thought MC said no one was screaming and there was no fight that she heard - she just heard whimpering and moaning.

<respectfully snipped>

Screaming is my word. My bad! Whining. Whimpering. Whatever it was, MC tried to tell LE that it was Trayvon and they corrected her and told her it was George.

MOO

Beyond Belief
04-06-2012, 11:52 PM
This all happened so quickly right up to police showing up wanting to know what happened. GZ certainly needed to have his story straight very quickly.

csziggy
04-06-2012, 11:53 PM
I know. I didn't either. So the gun had to have been left at the scene with detectives, correct? I figure it was immediately taken from Zimmerman's possession (hopefully with gloves on and placed in an evidence bag right away)? Would Zimmerman placing the gun back in the holster smear any fingerprints on the gun?

Would there be some sort of lock box in the police car for officers to place seized weapons? Maybe GZ's gun had been secured at the scene and once GZ himself was secured at the station, Officer Smith retrieved the weapon and entered into evidence as is stated in the "initial report".

IMO, JMO, etc.

Concerned Papa
04-06-2012, 11:53 PM
Has anyone ever read or heard how the initial connection was made between GZ and his first attorney, Craig Sonner?

Only reason I'm asking is I was spending time in Google trying to see if GZ had any martial arts training or background, which is not at all uncommon in the bouncer profession. It's also reportedly a good form of exercise for weight loss, which apparently Zimmerman has experienced.

I found nothing on Zimmerman, but did run across this on Sonner:

He's also a martial-arts instructor. He has a black belt in aikido, a form of self-defense that allows practitioners to defend themselves without injuring their attacker. He teaches classes in it twice a week in Orlando.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/zimmermans-lawyer-scout-leader-martial-arts-expert-one-2282430.html

No big deal, just poking around.....

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 11:56 PM
GZ said he was on the cut through street while he was on the line with the dispatcher - could GZ's father mean the cut through street?

I don't think he meant street? I think he meant "cut through" but not street. I think he just calls the sidewalk a street? When I'm walking down a sidewalk, I don't say "Yeah, I'm walking down the sidewalk", I always say "I'm walking down the street." I just think it's a normal choice of words, but I'm pretty sure he was talking about he sidewalk that cuts through?

MOO

mercuriod
04-06-2012, 11:56 PM
We know Trayvon made that right.

What George's father is saying is that George walked over to the next street to get the address (you're not going to get the street address from the back of the building). So George had to have passed that long sidewalk (the one where the altercation would soon take place) and he didn't see Trayvon because he continued to the next street to write down the address (wonder if he had a pen and paper on him with the address written down??).

So, according to Zimmerman's father, Trayvon had to have been hiding somewhere in that area and as Zimmerman was making his way back to his truck, Trayvon came out of nowhere and jumped him from behind. Which I find quite amazing how someone can come up from behind you, hit your in the nose and you fall back on the ground. I would think if he was punched from the back, he would have fallen forward and not backwards?

But like everything else, it just doesn't make any sense?

MOO

BBM: I would really love to see pic's of the back of these buildings, I live in a gated townhome community in FL, not sure why but our unit numbers are also on the back of our units. (We have a full time maintenance person on site so maybe it is for when he is doing maintenance.) But because of personal experience, I wonder if the unit # is also on the back of the unit.

jmo, imo and all that jazz

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 11:58 PM
Has anyone ever read or heard how the initial connection was made between GZ and his first attorney, Craig Sonner?

Only reason I'm asking is I was spending time in Google trying to see if GZ had any martial arts training or background, which is not at all uncommon in the bouncer profession. It's also reportedly a good form of exercise for weight loss, which apparently Zimmerman has experienced.

I found nothing on Zimmerman, but did run across this on Sonner:



No big deal, just poking around.....

All our bouncers at the club I worked at had basic Martial Arts training. Like grabbing an arm a certain way as to not break it, but remove them from the building, etc...

Keep poking though!

grandmaj
04-06-2012, 11:58 PM
With regard to the tox screen. It is fairly routine. Say they didn't do the tox screen and this case went to court. What is to prevent a jury from hearing that no tox screen was done and the man might have been doing drugs, which could have been what made his heart stop. See what I mean? The ME will be thorough to ensure his autopsy is performed completely where there is an ongoing investigation. No room for loopholes.

I even see this in suicides. Not always but they generally want to know if drugs contributed to a person taking their own life.

They have to determine cause of death and any underlying factors. It will say Homicide, accidental, undetermined, natural.

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 12:00 AM
I haven't seen this photo of Trayvon before. I love it. Such a nice looking kid. Such a tragic story. Arrest George Zimmerman NOW!


http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2012/04/07/oped/web_photos/trayvon_martin02--300x300.jpg

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 12:00 AM
Would there be some sort of lock box in the police car for officers to place seized weapons? Maybe GZ's gun had been secured at the scene and once GZ himself was secured at the station, Officer Smith retrieved the weapon and entered into evidence as is stated in the "initial report".

IMO, JMO, etc.

I don't know?? Heck, I'm still waiting on anything one of the dash cams may have caught!

I'm obsessed with videos! I want to see the dash cam videos, I want to see the complex videos, I want to see the 7-11 videos, I want to see the whole night's entrance and exit videos from the Sanford Police Department (ones that may or may not show a "certain meetings.)?

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 12:01 AM
BBM: I would really love to see pic's of the back of these buildings, I live in a gated townhome community in FL, not sure why but our unit numbers are also on the back of our units. (We have a full time maintenance person on site so maybe it is for when he is doing maintenance.) But because of personal experience, I wonder if the unit # is also on the back of the unit.

jmo, imo and all that jazz

I live in a gated complex here in Florida too and there are no addresses on the back of our buildings?

ETA: I would love to see a closer look at the back of the buildings too. Would be interesting to see if they had the addresses on the back?

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 12:03 AM
Has anyone ever read or heard how the initial connection was made between GZ and his first attorney, Craig Sonner?

Only reason I'm asking is I was spending time in Google trying to see if GZ had any martial arts training or background, which is not at all uncommon in the bouncer profession. It's also reportedly a good form of exercise for weight loss, which apparently Zimmerman has experienced.

I found nothing on Zimmerman, but did run across this on Sonner:



No big deal, just poking around.....

I was under the impression that Zimmerman Sr. made the first contact with Sonner thought I don't know where I remember reading that.



~jmo~

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 12:04 AM
I haven't seen this photo of Trayvon before. I love it. Such a nice looking kid. Such a tragic story. Arrest George Zimmerman NOW!


http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2012/04/07/oped/web_photos/trayvon_martin02--300x300.jpg

Such a good looking kid.

:sigh:

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 12:05 AM
GZ said he was on the cut through street while he was on the line with the dispatcher - could GZ's father mean the cut through street?

Could you please identify on this map this "cut through street" that I've seen you reference many times. To my knowledge, there is no cut through street in the complex.

Thanks so much.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/02/us/the-events-leading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin.html?scp=2&sq=trayvon%20martin%20case&st=cse

TonyGatto
04-07-2012, 12:06 AM
Here is video of the witness interviewed my Ashleigh Banfield on CNN Friday night:

Trayvon Killing Eyewitness On CNN: I Offered To Show Police Scene Of The Crime, They Declined

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/trayvon-killing-eyewitness-on-cnn-i-offered-to-show-police-scene-of-the-crime-they-declined/

Concerned Papa
04-07-2012, 12:07 AM
I live in a gated complex here in Florida too and there are no addresses on the back of our buildings?

ETA: I would love to see a closer look at the back of the buildings too. Would be interesting to see if they had the addresses on the back?

This is about the best view of the back of a unit that I've grabbed.

LambChop
04-07-2012, 12:07 AM
I don't think he meant street? I think he meant "cut through" but not street. I think he just calls the sidewalk a street? When I'm walking down a sidewalk, I don't say "Yeah, I'm walking down the sidewalk", I always say "I'm walking down the street." I just think it's a normal choice of words, but I'm pretty sure he was talking about he sidewalk that cuts through?

MOO

Or, the street with the cut through. lol

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 12:09 AM
This all happened so quickly right up to police showing up wanting to know what happened. GZ certainly needed to have his story straight very quickly.

We don't even know what his original story was the night of the shooting? It could be completely different from what is being said now? That's what is frustrating about it... if we could just get his written statement and taped interview from the night of the shooting, we could really put together what happened.

As of now, he's had over a month to perfect his story or the story his friends and family are telling the media? When it all comes down to it... we have no idea what George says happened that night?

MOO

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 12:10 AM
Here is video of the witness interviewed my Ashleigh Banfield on CNN Friday night:

Trayvon Killing Eyewitness On CNN: I Offered To Show Police Scene Of The Crime, They Declined

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/trayvon-killing-eyewitness-on-cnn-i-offered-to-show-police-scene-of-the-crime-they-declined/

I personally find her account to be very truthful. This sounds like just what I have expected of SPD since my first moments following this case which is absolutely nothing. I think when it's all said and done that we are all going to be really surprised as to how little they did investigate Trayvon's murder and how quickly they were going to close their case. Thank heavens that Trayvon's parents were not going to take no for an answer.


~jmo~

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 12:11 AM
This is about the best view of the back of a unit that I've grabbed.

Doesn't look like there are any addresses? Unless they are smaller and on the porch where we can't see?

Thanks!

Beyond Belief
04-07-2012, 12:12 AM
I still can't figure out how Zimmerman caught up with him, and I don't understand if you are watching someone suspicious why he didn't drive down to exit to see if the person was headed that way.

Chris_Texas
04-07-2012, 12:12 AM
This new witness might very well have changed the entire narrative of this incident.

She said they were arguing loudly and for some time.

In my opinion, this statement completely invalidates Zimmerman's claim that he was taken by surprise and was in danger of being killed by Treyvon.

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 12:14 AM
I still can't figure out how Zimmerman caught up with him, and I don't understand if you are watching someone suspicious why he didn't drive down to exit to see if the person was headed that way.

Because George has issues and he is unstable. Or as his friend said, he had "Fed up" issues and there was no way Trayvon was going to get away.

MOO

TonyGatto
04-07-2012, 12:17 AM
This new witness might very well have changed the entire narrative of this incident.

She said they were arguing loudly and for some time.

In my opinion, this statement completely invalidates Zimmerman's claim that he was taken by surprise and was in danger of being killed by Treyvon.

These 911 callers blow out of the water any notion that TM snuck up on and/or sucker punched GZ. It totally supports GZ grabbing hold of TM (the loud argument), TM defending himself by throwing a punch, an ensuing life and death struggle ending with the gunshot.

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 12:17 AM
This new witness might very well have changed the entire narrative of this incident.

She said they were arguing loudly and for some time.

In my opinion, this statement completely invalidates Zimmerman's claim that he was taken by surprise and was in danger of being killed by Treyvon.

I believe other witnesses have said that there was a loud verbal altercation before the actual physical altercation. It was earlier in the case. Which you are correct, it totally kills the argument that Trayvon jumped him from behind while he was innocently walking back to his truck.

I have been looking for earlier reported links and a lot of them are deleted now... so I do not have a link for this... only my memory.

MOO

TonyGatto
04-07-2012, 12:20 AM
I still can't figure out how Zimmerman caught up with him, and I don't understand if you are watching someone suspicious why he didn't drive down to exit to see if the person was headed that way.

I don't understand what you mean when you say you can't figure out how GZ caught up with TM. He ended up at the spot between the homes with TM where he shot and killed him.

Peliman
04-07-2012, 12:20 AM
Well there was some reason the detective wanted to charge GZ, I'd like to know what that reason was.

vlpate
04-07-2012, 12:21 AM
You don't think the SA has talked to her? She said it was Sanford Police who wouldn't talk to her?

We'll just have to see how this all comes about?

I have a question, let's say Zimmerman never does get charged?? Can all these reports be released? Would they still be considered public record since there was an investigation?

They said the SA investigators talked to her. Her attorney said Ashley spent more time with the witness than the SA investigators did.

If you are asking me that question - I have no clue!

LambChop
04-07-2012, 12:21 AM
These 911 callers blow out of the water any notion that TM snuck up on and/or sucker punched GZ. It totally supports GZ grabbing hold of TM (the loud argument), TM defending himself by throwing a punch, an ensuing life and death struggle ending with the gunshot.

Mary C said the argument started a couple of houses down and TM ended up getting shot right near her back porch. No wonder they are pulling everything from the websites. jmo

i.b.nora
04-07-2012, 12:22 AM
Four feet away? That's the length of a seven year old - this witness could have seen food in GZ's teeth. The SA is not an idiot - if this person had a credible account, she would not be on CNN talking to Banfield.
JMO!
She said in answer to a question that she thought the body was about four feet away from the center sidewalk. She did not say she was four feet away from anything.

LambChop
04-07-2012, 12:24 AM
Well there was some reason the detective wanted to charge GZ, I'd like to know what that reason was.

Probably he already knew what we've been trying to figure out for a month. jmo

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 12:24 AM
They said the SA investigators talked to her. Her attorney said Ashley spent more time with the witness than Ashley did.

If you are asking me that question - I have no clue!

Are you sure he meant the SA investigators and not the SPD investigators who were originally on the case? What's the point in bringing out a special investigator if they are just going to blow her off?

MOO

TonyGatto
04-07-2012, 12:24 AM
I believe other witnesses have said that there was a loud verbal altercation before the actual physical altercation. It was earlier in the case. Which you are correct, it totally kills the argument that Trayvon jumped him from behind while he was innocently walking back to his truck.

I have been looking for earlier reported links and a lot of them are deleted now... so I do not have a link for this... only my memory.

MOO

I'm pretty sure this is the witness account you are referring to. It seems to be the SAME witness that we heard from Friday night with Ashley Banfield.

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-29/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting_1_witness-voices-window?_s=PM:JUSTICE

Beyond Belief
04-07-2012, 12:28 AM
I don't understand what you mean when you say you can't figure out how GZ caught up with TM. He ended up at the spot between the homes with TM where he shot and killed him.
I can't figure it out. Wasn't Trayvon quite a distance a head of Zimmerman and running? Is George that fast he could catch up with him easily? Or was Zimmerman right behind Trayvon all the time?

csziggy
04-07-2012, 12:28 AM
Another thing, police even have warned people not to pull over for any car that could be mistaken for an unmarked police car while driving on a dark secluded road because so many police impersonations (robbing/kidnapping/killing). You're to call 911 and get confirmation that you are being pulled over by an actual Police Officer.

When I was a freshman in college I was warned not to open my car window or door if I was pulled over by a cop car with a single officer in it. It seems that a rogue cop in my home county had been pulling over single women driving alone and raping them.

Afterwards he'd tell them if they tried to press charges, he'd charge them with solicitation - a couple of women who did try to press charges actually spent time in jail because of that.

The advice given was to open the window just a crack and pass the officer my driver's license and insurance card through the crack. I did actually do that one night when pulled over by an officer. He asked me about it but as soon as I told him where I was from, he understood since the case was highly publicized.

That was forty years ago. I hope things have improved, but sometimes I despair.

JMO, IMO, etc.

TonyGatto
04-07-2012, 12:33 AM
I can't figure it out. Wasn't Trayvon quite a distance a head of Zimmerman and running? Is George that fast he could catch up with him easily? Or was Zimmerman right behind Trayvon all the time?

We don't know if he was running. GZ said he was running. Even if TM picked up speed, I think once he made the turn and had GZ out of sight, he slowed down. Whatever the case, it's moot. They ended up at the stop, together, where TM died. And now we have a very clear witness statement that there was a loud argument before the struggle -- knocking down GZ's claim of a surprise attack or a punch to the face after the "homie" exchange. And, again, there are growing indications that SPD was SELECTIVE IN WHICH 911 CALLS TO RELEASE.

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 12:35 AM
I can't figure it out. Wasn't Trayvon quite a distance a head of Zimmerman and running? Is George that fast he could catch up with him easily? Or was Zimmerman right behind Trayvon all the time?

See, Zimmerman seems to exaggerate certain things (I've noticed). It seems that Trayvon had no other option but to walk towards George in order to get home and that turns into "He's walking right towards me now. Yeah, yeah, he's checking me out now." ***not verbatim***

According to Trayvon's girlfriend, Trayvon was not going to run, but walk fast.

We have no idea where Trayvon was when Zimmerman jumped out of the car, but it wasn't until after he had already jumped out of the car that he states he doesn't see Trayvon anymore.

MOO

Dr.Fessel
04-07-2012, 12:35 AM
That ladies 911 call was never released and the city said they released them all.

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 12:37 AM
That ladies 911 call was never released and the city said they released them all.

Is that what she said? Wonder if her phone records can back that up?

vlpate
04-07-2012, 12:40 AM
We don't even know what his original story was the night of the shooting? It could be completely different from what is being said now? That's what is frustrating about it... if we could just get his written statement and taped interview from the night of the shooting, we could really put together what happened.

As of now, he's had over a month to perfect his story or the story his friends and family are telling the media? When it all comes down to it... we have no idea what George says happened that night?

MOO

His story will remain the same as it was when he gave a video taped interview with LW three times during the initial investigation. He can't change it.

JMO

csziggy
04-07-2012, 12:41 AM
For me, by virtue of GZ claiming self-defense or SYG, he exposes himself to additional scrutiny. He must defend his decision to the authorities. What has been said by him, by his father, by his lawyers or anyone is open to interpretation of the law. No matter what the media is squawking about, GZ would be better served if he would shut up and tell family members/lawyers defending him to shut up.

That is the major problem I have with the SYG law - it prohibits LE from arresting the killer if they claim SYG and self defense. It also lowers the standards for self defense as an excuse and removes the obligation to retreat from a confrontation.

The way it is being used in Florida is that if someone thinks they might be in danger whether or not a real threat exists, they can use lethal force and claim they were in fear for their life. LE has been using the non-arrest clause to get out of proper investigations in more than one case and more than one jurisdiction.

What is scary is the same template that was used for the Florida SYG law was also passed in a couple of dozen other states. Most places, law enforcement and legal authorities tried to block the passage since there was no need for the extreme measures in these bills. The existing "castle" and self defense laws were sufficient to legally protect someone who was legitimately defending their home or their person.

There will be a lot of money available to protect the SYG law. I hope the Trayvon Martin case will be the lever that can overturn it and have it declared unconstitutional across the country. Someone else posted that as it is written it denies the victims due process because their deaths will never be investigated under SYG.

IMO, JMO, etc. I will not further discuss the political aspects of SYG, just the parts that affect law enforcement and victims' rights.

RANCH
04-07-2012, 12:41 AM
Is that what she said? Wonder if her phone records can back that up?

I didn't here her say that in CNN interview. That would be a much bigger story than the one she gave. SPD withholding certain 911 calls would be huge.

i.b.nora
04-07-2012, 12:42 AM
I'm pretty sure this is the witness account you are referring to. It seems to be the SAME witness that we heard from Friday night with Ashley Banfield.

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-29/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting_1_witness-voices-window?_s=PM:JUSTICE
Ashleigh did mention tonight that CNN had talked with this same woman last week.

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 12:43 AM
His story will remain the same as it was when he gave a video taped interview with LW three times during the initial investigation. He can't change it.

JMO

Ha! :floorlaugh: I've seen stranger things! He's going to try and get those statements tossed anyways... if he is ever arrested and charged.

MOO

vlpate
04-07-2012, 12:44 AM
I can't figure it out. Wasn't Trayvon quite a distance a head of Zimmerman and running? Is George that fast he could catch up with him easily? Or was Zimmerman right behind Trayvon all the time?

TM was running two minutes into the 911 call. At the end of the 4 minute call, GZ does not know where TM is. 1-2 minutes later, all he** broke loose.

Isabelle
04-07-2012, 12:45 AM
No, many of them have no sort of enclosure at all. You can see them in the video with Tracy Martin.

Back porches looked to me to be a concrete slab with a sliding glass door into the home. Not much of anything actually.

csziggy
04-07-2012, 12:45 AM
This is what confuses me about the whole story...

George gets out of his car and walks all the way over to where the other street is... so he passes that long sidewalk and he doesn't see Trayvon so he proceeds to the other street to check the address and begins walking back to his truck when Trayvon jumps him from behind? Where was Trayvon hiding that entire time? Looking where the back of the buildings would be and where the sidewalk is... it looks really open? Maybe I'm missing something like big trees or something because I just don't see where he could have been hiding?

Are the porches screened in at this complex? I would think so?

MOO

Each porch/patio has a fence to give it some privacy from it's neighbors. You can see the white fences in Concerned Papa's aerial of the back yards. They're not real deep, but deep enough a skinny teenager could duck behind one.

IMO, JMO, etc.

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 12:45 AM
I didn't here her say that in CNN interview. That would be a much bigger story than the one she gave. SPD withholding certain 911 calls would be huge.

Yes! They better hope they didn't do that! But everything being pulled from the Sanford site... does make me wonder? I think Sanford PD is in deep "doo doo" and that even if they can never bring charges against Zimmerman because of the Sanford PD... heads are gonna roll.

MOO

katydid23
04-07-2012, 12:47 AM
You don't think the SA has talked to her? She said it was Sanford Police who wouldn't talk to her?

We'll just have to see how this all comes about?

I have a question, let's say Zimmerman never does get charged?? Can all these reports be released? Would they still be considered public record since there was an investigation?

Sanford police talked to her the very first night, right after the killing. The lead homicide detective apparently, according to her, came to her place and taped the eyewitness testimony.

And then recently, the SA came out, and did a follow up, with her attorney present.

RANCH
04-07-2012, 12:47 AM
Maybe not, but she HEARD the whole thing. And it sounds like she heard a LOT MORE than the woman in the 911 tape which WAS released and we've heard over and over again.

Your right she heard a lot of yelling. But she couldn't make out any words. She heard a young boy and a deeper sounding man. She saw two men on the ground. Not a lot of detail here.

Storm
04-07-2012, 12:47 AM
I want to frame this post and hang it on my wall. :)

My now 30 yr old son spent a night in jail or purchasing beer 2 weeks before e turned 21..he only got out when his roommate's girlfriend bailed him out.
That charge has haunted him since...he had to explain on every medical school application and send them all the official records...he's now an M.D...he didn't let it ruin his life..I can see how people do...what he went through that night truly had to be a crime on LE's part, too. This was in Columbus, Ohio in 2003.
I can't imagine GZ didn't even spend a night in jail! ^i^

jaded cat
04-07-2012, 12:49 AM
I haven't seen this photo of Trayvon before. I love it. Such a nice looking kid. Such a tragic story. Arrest George Zimmerman NOW!


http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2012/04/07/oped/web_photos/trayvon_martin02--300x300.jpg\

My husband just asked me why I was crying. That's a handsome young man. Thanks for posting this pic. I don't understand how any parent can look at that picture of TM and not feel shot through the heart. I never had the joy of having children but I'll never feel the loss. My deepest love and prayers to all you parents. What a difficult joy/sorrow that must be. :tears: Blessings and love to TM's parents.

Peliman
04-07-2012, 12:49 AM
Well here's what GZ originally was facing before he claimed SYG...

782.11 Unnecessary killing to prevent unlawful act.—Whoever shall unnecessarily kill another, either while resisting an attempt by such other person to commit any felony, or to do any other unlawful act, or after such attempt shall have failed, shall be deemed guilty of manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
History.—s. 13, ch. 1637, 1868; RS 2388; GS 3213; RGS 5043; CGL 7145; s. 719, ch. 71-136.

The detective had a choice of charges, example.

782.03 Excusable homicide.—Homicide is excusable when committed by accident and misfortune in doing any lawful act by lawful means with usual ordinary caution, and without any unlawful intent, or by accident and misfortune in the heat of passion, upon any sudden and sufficient provocation, or upon a sudden combat, without any dangerous weapon being used and not done in a cruel or unusual manner.
History.—s. 6, ch. 1637, 1868; RS 2379; GS 3204; RGS 5034; CGL 7136; s. 1, ch. 75-13.

List and explanation of homicide charges under florida chapter 782 Homicide

http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/Chapter782

RANCH
04-07-2012, 12:50 AM
Yes! They better hope they didn't do that! But everything being pulled from the Sanford site... does make me wonder? I think Sanford PD is in deep "doo doo" and that even if they can never bring charges against Zimmerman because of the Sanford PD... heads are gonna roll.

MOO

Sanford pulling that information from their site didn't make it disappear from the internet. It's all still out there.

vlpate
04-07-2012, 12:54 AM
Are you sure he meant the SA investigators and not the SPD investigators who were originally on the case? What's the point in bringing out a special investigator if they are just going to blow her off?

MOO

I surely do not know. I was cooking and watching - he could have meant the initial investigation. I just assume that a witness they feel is this important should talk to the SA investigators instead of Ashleigh Banfield.

I just don't remember ever seeing a credible eyewitness do an interview, accompanied by their lawyer, with the media prior to a trial.

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 12:54 AM
If this witness information is true, it changes the body location that Tracy Martin described by about 60 feet farther to the south from (1) to (2) in the first image below, and places TM 60 feet closer to his own home.

The witness lives at 2831 Retreat View, and the SPD narrative says the body is between 2821 Retreat View and 1231 Twin Trees.

Which could mean again that SPD didn't inform Tracy Martin of all the details that happened that night I'm presuming?


~jmo~

katydid23
04-07-2012, 12:56 AM
Are you sure he meant the SA investigators and not the SPD investigators who were originally on the case? What's the point in bringing out a special investigator if they are just going to blow her off?

MOO

They were SA investigators, apparently. And they did not blow her off. They said they had specific questions that they had not seen clarified in the original interview with her. And they focused on a few key things they wanted to know.

Her attorney told Banfield that he thought they should have scrapped her original interview or testimony and had her start from scratch. But I disagree.

Why would she have to do that a month later? Didn't she give a full and truthful eyewitness report that night? I assume she did.

If they started over there would be a greater chance that she would have some distorted memories or things changed over time from what she has heard or read. imo

Dr.Fessel
04-07-2012, 12:56 AM
Is that what she said? Wonder if her phone records can back that up?

She said she told the operator she was going to hold the phone up to the screen so she could hear it. We never heard that on a tape.

TonyGatto
04-07-2012, 12:57 AM
I don't understand SYG. Let's say a husband kills his wife in their home and then calls 911. Cops get there and the husband says she attacked me and I feared for my life. There are no witnesses and nothing that disproves his claim. He doesn't get arrested?

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 12:58 AM
Sanford pulling that information from their site didn't make it disappear from the internet. It's all still out there.

Oh, I know! Some of our own lovely members here were smart enough to download it all :floorlaugh:.

I just wonder if the State prosecutor had found something hinky and that's why they wanted it deleted? They said they had a justifiable reason for wanting it down?

MOO

vlpate
04-07-2012, 12:58 AM
Sanford police talked to her the very first night, right after the killing. The lead homicide detective apparently, according to her, came to her place and taped the eyewitness testimony.

And then recently, the SA came out, and did a follow up, with her attorney present.

Thank you! This is why I like transcripts - ADD. lol

Isabelle
04-07-2012, 12:59 AM
Has anyone ever read or heard how the initial connection was made between GZ and his first attorney, Craig Sonner?

Only reason I'm asking is I was spending time in Google trying to see if GZ had any martial arts training or background, which is not at all uncommon in the bouncer profession. It's also reportedly a good form of exercise for weight loss, which apparently Zimmerman has experienced.

I found nothing on Zimmerman, but did run across this on Sonner:



No big deal, just poking around.....

I thought I had read that GZ's dad reached out to him.

itsreenw
04-07-2012, 01:00 AM
I know many would would love to believe that this was a teardrop.

I do believe though and this is MOO that it was more apt to be a raindrop.

Maybe God's way of grieving?
I don't know if many would love to believe that as opposed to believing it was something else. I don't think many have weighed that as a significant factor.

But it's possible the kid was scared and crying when he saw a gun pointed at him? And some people do cry right before they die. I have seen it myself.

And usually when one rain drop falls, there are more to follow. Seems like his face would have sprinkled drops all over but I don't understand why you're pointing this out?? Please share if it might shed some light on things that we haven't discussed.

Thanks

Isabelle
04-07-2012, 01:00 AM
I haven't seen this photo of Trayvon before. I love it. Such a nice looking kid. Such a tragic story. Arrest George Zimmerman NOW!


http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2012/04/07/oped/web_photos/trayvon_martin02--300x300.jpg

Beautiful! The only consolation his parents have is that no one can ever hurt Trayvon again.

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 01:01 AM
They were SA investigators, apparently. And they did not blow her off. They said they had specific questions that they had not seen clarified in the original interview with her. And they focused on a few key things they wanted to know.

Her attorney told Banfield that he thought they should have scrapped her original interview or testimony and had her start from scratch. But I disagree.

Why would she have to do that a month later? Didn't she give a full and truthful eyewitness report that night? I assume she did.

If they started over there would be a greater chance that she would have some distorted memories or things changed over time from what she has heard or read. imo

Maybe she felt intimidated to say certain things in her statement? Like it was George screaming and not Trayvon? I want to see both personally because I want to see how intial investigators handled the questioning of the witnesses that night? So I agree that the original statements shouldn't just be scratched.

MOO

vlpate
04-07-2012, 01:01 AM
I don't understand SYG. Let's say a husband kills his wife in their home and then calls 911. Cops get there and the husband says she attacked me and I feared for my life. There are no witnesses and nothing that disproves his claim. He doesn't get arrested?

I'm not sure it applies inside your own home. You can kill a burglar here for breaking into your home, but you can't kill your spouse and claim she's a burglar. So.... dunno.

Peliman
04-07-2012, 01:01 AM
I don't understand SYG. Let's say a husband kills his wife in their home and then calls 911. Cops get there and the husband says she attacked me and I feared for my life. There are no witnesses and nothing that disproves his claim. He doesn't get arrested?

Depends on the outcome of the investigation, as GZ is finding out. Right now GZ's story is under a microscope.

Isabelle
04-07-2012, 01:02 AM
I don't know?? Heck, I'm still waiting on anything one of the dash cams may have caught!

I'm obsessed with videos! I want to see the dash cam videos, I want to see the complex videos, I want to see the 7-11 videos, I want to see the whole night's entrance and exit videos from the Sanford Police Department (ones that may or may not show a "certain meetings.)?

I am obsessed with the autopsy. I want it now!

katydid23
04-07-2012, 01:03 AM
I am not sure why people are saying the loud argument proves that nobody was blindsided. Couldn't one of them hit or grabbed or punched the other, and then they begin yelling at each other as they continue the struggle?

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 01:05 AM
I am not sure why people are saying the loud argument proves that nobody was blindsided. Couldn't one of them hit or grabbed or punched the other, and then they begin yelling at each other as they continue the struggle?

Because we all heard the struggle. It didn't appear that there were any words being exchanged? Definitely not a verbal confrontation??

MOO

Lovejac
04-07-2012, 01:05 AM
Looks like supporters of Chief Lee have begun a campaign.


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-06/news/os-trayvon-martin-lee-petition-20120406_1_wristbands-online-petition-confidence-vote

Best of luck with that! :what:

uvamerica
04-07-2012, 01:06 AM
I can't figure it out. Wasn't Trayvon quite a distance a head of Zimmerman and running? Is George that fast he could catch up with him easily? Or was Zimmerman right behind Trayvon all the time?

I think the last question you asked is the correct. I don't believe GZ lost sight of TM at all, this happened fast. And now we know about the 2 arguing for a longer time than first thought. I think it started immediately after GZ hung up with 911.
There isn't enough time in my mind for so much to happen in such a short period of time. :moo:

vlpate
04-07-2012, 01:07 AM
She said she told the operator she was going to hold the phone up to the screen so she could hear it. We never heard that on a tape.

I'm pretty sure LE said the 911 tapes were not representative of all the calls that came in that night in reference to TM. I've always thought they held back any which might be key ear witness evidence.

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 01:07 AM
IF, and a big IF, it comes out that there was some kind of cover-up, could those who were in on it (officers, etc...) be charged with Accessory After the Fact?

katydid23
04-07-2012, 01:10 AM
Maybe she felt intimidated to say certain things in her statement? Like it was George screaming and not Trayvon? I want to see both personally because I want to see how intial investigators handled the questioning of the witnesses that night? So I agree that the original statements shouldn't just be scratched.

MOO

I don't know why she would feel intimidated, as she was sitting there with her attorney. I would think she could have said anything she wanted to at the time.

She talked about the initial investigators. She said they asked her just to tell them what she saw and heard. And they put on the recorder and she told the story as she remembered it.

The thing is that she didn't really hear or see much of anything. She could hear voices, but not anything that was said. And she could see the figures, but not really tell who was who.

And I get the feeling that she initially told them she couldn't see who was on top, but now she is saying it was GZ on top. So I think that is why they seem reticent because she is filling in the blanks later. imo

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 01:11 AM
I'm pretty sure LE said the 911 tapes were not representative of all the calls that came in that night in reference to TM. I've always thought they held back any which might be key ear witness evidence.

But you said earlier that this particular witness was not credible so if that is the case, then why haven't we heard her 911 call?



~jmo~

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 01:11 AM
I'm pretty sure LE said the 911 tapes were not representative of all the calls that came in that night in reference to TM. I've always thought they held back any which might be key ear witness evidence.

That's so strange though? Did they hold them back from Trayvon's parents too? I thought they won the right to get the 911 tapes released?

i.b.nora
04-07-2012, 01:11 AM
I am waiting for the transcript to appear from AC360 tonight, but, in the meantime, what the witness said was, that she did talk with an investigator in her home that night. She also said that they had a community meeting (I believe the next night) at the Clubhouse and that some of the same Police people came and that they encouraged people to call if they had any more questions or information or for any reason having to do with the 'incident'. They handed out cards with phone numbers to call. She said that after that she tried twice to call the Sanford Police and no one called her back.

This week the State Attorney reps met with her and interviewed her for about 15 minutes, some of which according to her attorney was just banter.

Concerned Papa
04-07-2012, 01:12 AM
There's a couple of other points that reinforce this "new" body location actually being right in front of this witness's home.

Out of this entire big development, somehow the first responder, Officer Timothy Smith, knew exactly where to park his squad car in order to walk directly between the ends of those buildings and to the body.

To further confirm the location of the body as being behind this witnesses residence, NOTICE THE ADDRESS shown as the incident address on the SPD report!

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 01:14 AM
I don't know why she would feel intimidated, as she was sitting there with her attorney. I would think she could have said anything she wanted to at the time.

She talked about the initial investigators. She said they asked her just to tell them what she saw and heard. And they put on the recorder and she told the story as she remembered it.

The thing is that she didn't really hear or see much of anything. She could hear voices, but not anything that was said. And she could see the figures, but not really tell who was who.

And I get the feeling that she initially told them she couldn't see who was on top, but now she is saying it was GZ on top. So I think that is why they seem reticent because she is filling in the blanks later. imo

She didn't have an attorney when the original investigators interviewed her the night of the shooting, did she? That is who I meant when I said she may have felt intimidated into saying George was the one screaming since they took the liberty to tell her "If it's any consolation, the guy screaming is alive?"

Since when would an investigator, taking a witnesses statement, say that to a witness? That is not allowing her to give her account, that is giving her the account they want her to have?

That is what it seems like to me?

MOO

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 01:16 AM
I am waiting for the transcript to appear from AC360 tonight, but, in the meantime, what the witness said was, that she did talk with an investigator in her home that night. She also said that they had a community meeting (I believe the next night) at the Clubhouse and that some of the same Police people came and that they encouraged people to call if they had any more questions or information or for any reason having to do with the 'incident'. They handed out cards with phone numbers to call. She said that after that she tried twice to call the Sanford Police and no one called her back.

This week the State Attorney reps met with her and interviewed her for about 15 minutes, some of which according to her attorney was just banter.

Yes, she said she called twice to speak with the lead investigator and that he had yet to return her call.

~jmo~

Dr.Fessel
04-07-2012, 01:16 AM
I'm pretty sure LE said the 911 tapes were not representative of all the calls that came in that night in reference to TM. I've always thought they held back any which might be key ear witness evidence.

Chief of police said they were released.



Why weren’t the 911 tapes initially released?
There are exemptions to the public records laws for active criminal intelligence and
for ongoing investigations. In this instance, the 911 calls made by neighbors in the
subdivision, and the non-emergency call made by Mr. Zimmerman are all key to the
investigation by Sanford Police Department. In consultation with the Office of the
State Attorney, the Sanford police department had decided not to release the audio
recordings of the 911 calls due to the ongoing investigation. Many times, specific
information is contained in those recordings which is vital to the integrity of the
investigation. At the time, it was determined that if revealed, the information may
compromise the integrity of the investigation prior to its completion. The 911 tapes
have since been released.


http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 01:16 AM
That is not what the lady witness just said. She said it was a long loud argument. It went on quite awhile.

I think it began with " why are you following me?"

What are you doing here?

And it progressed from there, like what do you care what I am doing here, get out of my face..Oh yea, Stop right there, right now...etc etc...

I understand that, but you said that you thought it could have been happening when they were struggling... we all heard them struggling... and there was only screaming... it wasn't a really loud verbal confrontion? Maybe I'm misunderstanding?

MOO

mdana
04-07-2012, 01:16 AM
We don't know if he was running. GZ said he was running. Even if TM picked up speed, I think once he made the turn and had GZ out of sight, he slowed down. Whatever the case, it's moot. They ended up at the stop, together, where TM died. And now we have a very clear witness statement that there was a loud argument before the struggle -- knocking down GZ's claim of a surprise attack or a punch to the face after the "homie" exchange. And, again, there are growing indications that SPD was SELECTIVE IN WHICH 911 CALLS TO RELEASE.

Her statements are contradictory and actually give credence to GZ calling the police, because it was apparently odd to be walking in the neighborhood. From the CNN article page 1.

"I thought it was rather loud, but I had just shut my window because it had just started pouring out rain," the witness said. "And then I thought, 'Oh, my gosh, who's out there walking their dog in the rain?'

...

The witness recounted seeing two men on the grass, one on top of the other. "And at that point, not looking out the window, I heard the yell for help, one yell for help, and then I heard another ... excruciating type of yell. It didn't almost sound like 'help.' It just sounded so painful. But I wasn't watching out the window during that. And then the next time I looked out the window, there's the same thing: two men on the grass, one on top of each other. I couldn't see a lot of movement. It was very dark, but I felt like they were scuffling. And then I heard the gunshots, which, to me, were more like pops than they were like a bang."

The witness recalled hearing more than one shot. "It definitely was more than one pop noise, so I don't know if it was an echo or anything else. But it definitely made more than one pop."

The witness said the shots were audible as one man was on top of the other. But the witness recalled not having been able to see clearly which man was on top because it was dark.


http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-29/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting_1_witness-voices-window?_s=PM:JUSTICE

I do not understand how this can be considered a clear witness statement since she did not witness the start of the altercation, and she was unable to see clearly due to the rain and darkness. I believe this is the same woman that AB interviewed on AC 360 tonight. She is now contradicting herself and statinging it was GZ that was on top.

TonyGatto
04-07-2012, 01:20 AM
There's a couple of other points that reinforce this "new" body location actually being right in front of this witness's home.

Out of this entire big development, somehow the first responder, Officer Timothy Smith, knew exactly where to park his squad car in order to walk directly between the ends of those buildings and to the body.

To further confirm the location of the body as being behind this witnesses residence, NOTICE THE ADDRESS shown as the incident address on the SPD report!

So this "new" location is further south than first thought, just south of the cutout, right? Do you think where the squad car is is where GZ's vehicle was parked, and that's what led the cops to go there?

TonyGatto
04-07-2012, 01:23 AM
Her statements are contradictory and actually give credence to GZ calling the police, because it was apparently odd to be walking in the neighborhood. From the CNN article page 1.

"I thought it was rather loud, but I had just shut my window because it had just started pouring out rain," the witness said. "And then I thought, 'Oh, my gosh, who's out there walking their dog in the rain?'

...

The witness recounted seeing two men on the grass, one on top of the other. "And at that point, not looking out the window, I heard the yell for help, one yell for help, and then I heard another ... excruciating type of yell. It didn't almost sound like 'help.' It just sounded so painful. But I wasn't watching out the window during that. And then the next time I looked out the window, there's the same thing: two men on the grass, one on top of each other. I couldn't see a lot of movement. It was very dark, but I felt like they were scuffling. And then I heard the gunshots, which, to me, were more like pops than they were like a bang."

The witness recalled hearing more than one shot. "It definitely was more than one pop noise, so I don't know if it was an echo or anything else. But it definitely made more than one pop."

The witness said the shots were audible as one man was on top of the other. But the witness recalled not having been able to see clearly which man was on top because it was dark.


http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-29/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting_1_witness-voices-window?_s=PM:JUSTICE

I do not understand how this can be considered a clear witness statement since she did not witness the start of the altercation, and she was unable to see clearly due to the rain and darkness. I believe this is the same woman that AB interviewed on AC 360 tonight. She is now contradicting herself and statinging it was GZ that was on top.

The clear witness statement I refer to is the loud argument that preceded the shot. IMO, that means GZ is lying when he says he was the victim of a surprise attack or that they had a quick verbal exchange which then led to a life and death struggle.

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 01:23 AM
http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-29/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting_1_witness-voices-window?_s=PM:JUSTICE

I do not understand how this can be considered a clear witness statement since she did not witness the start of the altercation, and she was unable to see clearly due to the rain and darkness. I believe this is the same woman that AB interviewed on AC 360 tonight. She is now contradicting herself and statinging it was GZ that was on top.

Snipped respectfully... I don't think any witness has claimed to have seen how it started? It doesn't take away from the fact that they are witnesses. Everything we can get out of these witnesses, even if the stories don't match (which they never do with eye witnesses), it gives us something to go on.

We also don't know who this "witness" is because it may be possible that some of these calls have not been released... which I hope is not true? Until she gives her name... we have no idea who she is?

MOO

vlpate
04-07-2012, 01:24 AM
I don't understand SYG. Let's say a husband kills his wife in their home and then calls 911. Cops get there and the husband says she attacked me and I feared for my life. There are no witnesses and nothing that disproves his claim. He doesn't get arrested?

I think this is an excellent question, actually. Imagine if this did apply to spouses. I think more women would be able to stop physical abuse pretty quickly without spending their life in prison for it.

katydid23
04-07-2012, 01:27 AM
I understand that, but you said that you thought it could have been happening when they were struggling... we all heard them struggling... and there was only screaming... it wasn't a really loud verbal confrontion? Maybe I'm misunderstanding?

MOO

This 'new' witness seems to make this long argument begin earlier than we hear on the 911 calls. People do not call 911 at the moment the argument begins. It goes on for awhile before anyone calls. So we only hear THE END of the struggling/wrestling. According to her the arguing goes on for awhile, loudly.

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 01:27 AM
NOOOO, I don't think that is how it went. From what IU remember, she said this...

At THE END of my interview, as the dectective was leaving, I said how awful I was feeling after the hearing the whole sad thing, and he said, " IF it makes you feel any better, the guy who was screaming is still alive."


So he was not trying to alter her testimony, he was trying to make her feel better. Obviously with hindsight we can say he was wrong. But it was not malicious, imo. Just narrow minded.

Well, that makes it a little better, but still really wrong on the detective's part because he was supposed to be conducting an investigation, not giving out information that he would have no idea was true until it was investigated further.

That still leaves MC saying a detective "corrected" her statement.

Such a mess!

MOO

Chris_Texas
04-07-2012, 01:27 AM
I still can't figure out how Zimmerman caught up with him, and I don't understand if you are watching someone suspicious why he didn't drive down to exit to see if the person was headed that way.

IMO

Zimmerman never did run directly after TM. Instead, he ran down the main street and then cut through between the buildings towards the middle sidewalk TM was walking down. This put him in front of TM, between TM and his home.

katydid23
04-07-2012, 01:28 AM
Snipped respectfully... I don't think any witness has claimed to have seen how it started? It doesn't take away from the fact that they are witnesses. Everything we can get out of these witnesses, even if the stories don't match (which they never do with eye witnesses), it gives us something to go on.

We also don't know who this "witness" is because it may be possible that some of these calls have not been released... which I hope is not true? Until she gives her name... we have no idea who she is?

MOO

I think it was not released yet because she said she held her cell up to the window screen for LE to hear the arguing and fighting. So maybe they need that to be held back in case of a trial.

TonyGatto
04-07-2012, 01:30 AM
IMO

Zimmerman never did run directly after TM. Instead, he ran down the main street and then cut through between the buildings towards the middle sidewalk TM was walking down. This put him in front of TM, between TM and his home.

That's exactly what I was getting at!

Nova
04-07-2012, 01:30 AM
I think that GZ saw TM walking towards his dad's gf's back door as GZ was making his return trip, came up behind TM and grabbed him to "hold" him there for when the police arrive, he didn't want TM to get away before the police got there, as had happened so many times after GZ called the police on all the many "suspicious" kids he had already called them about in the past, remember "these a$$holes always get away". The police were probably sick of GZ, he knew they saw him as a fool who was always wasting their time, this time he was going to have "his person" in hand when they got there so not to look like the idiot he has always been in the past. I think when GZ grabbed TM, TM fought back (I know I sure as he l l would have) and was getting the better of "big man" GZ and GZ was not going to put up with that so he killed TM out of anger.

jmo, imo and all that jazz

I agree. There may have also been a struggle over the gun; I think the screaming on the 911 tape is TM wailing for his life.

m00c0w
04-07-2012, 01:33 AM
There's a couple of other points that reinforce this "new" body location actually being right in front of this witness's home.

Out of this entire big development, somehow the first responder, Officer Timothy Smith, knew exactly where to park his squad car in order to walk directly between the ends of those buildings and to the body.

To further confirm the location of the body as being behind this witnesses residence, NOTICE THE ADDRESS shown as the incident address on the SPD report!

I thought Tracy Martin's recounting of the events was unassailable truth? What happened? :waitasec:

mdana
04-07-2012, 01:34 AM
The clear witness statement I refer to is the loud argument that preceded the shot. IMO, that means GZ is lying when he says he was the victim of a surprise attack or that they had a quick verbal exchange which then led to a life and death struggle.

I do not see how this proves anything. She stated there was arguing or shouting but gave no description of the time involved. Your idea of quick maybe 5-10 seconds may not coincide with mine of 30 seconds. She could not identify the two people because of the darkness. We will have to wait for her original police statement to be released to see if it corresponds with what she is claiming now.

highflyer
04-07-2012, 01:34 AM
There's a couple of other points that reinforce this "new" body location actually being right in front of this witness's home.

Out of this entire big development, somehow the first responder, Officer Timothy Smith, knew exactly where to park his squad car in order to walk directly between the ends of those buildings and to the body.

To further confirm the location of the body as being behind this witnesses residence, NOTICE THE ADDRESS shown as the incident address on the SPD report!

How can the time reported, time dispatched and time arrived all be exactly the same time?

itsreenw
04-07-2012, 01:37 AM
Thanks. It's interesting that the videotape doesn't have a time stamp that allows him to be more accurate about when Trayvon was there.

At a minimum, it took him 45 minutes to get back into the complex, or at any rate, 45 minutes (minimum) after purchasing the items he was still outside in the complex. Which leads to a question. What was he doing with that time? He wasn't going to the store and coming back, he was doing something else, likely innocent, but whatever it was is likely the reason he appeared suspicious to GZ.And this IMO,is the whole problem. Why would he appear suspicious? Why does it matter how long Trayvon took to get to/from the store, at what pace he was walking, or why he was outside in the rain.

GZ didn't tell dispatch TM was trying to peer in windows, rattle car door handles, go up to anyone's front door. Nothing indicated he was breaking a law. GZ said TM was walking, looking at all the houses. Did GZ think he should be the only one allowed to roam the complex?

Trayvon should not have to account for doing what we all, as Americans, have the right to do. Live. Without being followed. Without being questioned for no reason. Without being shot dead at 17.

An individual should not have to defend his actions when they are minding their own business, taking a leisurely stroll, maybe staying outside while on the phone for better phone reception or maybe he just wanted some fresh air.
He did nothing that suggested he was going to commit a crime.

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 01:38 AM
This 'new' witness seems to make this long argument begin earlier than we hear on the 911 calls. People do not call 911 at the moment the argument begins. It goes on for awhile before anyone calls. So we only hear THE END of the struggling/wrestling. According to her the arguing goes on for awhile, loudly.

This is where it gets so confusing to me.

First, we hear that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman from behind. Cool!

Second we hear that Trayvon asks Zimmerman "Why are you following me?" and Zimmerman replies "What are you doing here?" Then Trayvon, for no reason at all, attacks Zimmerman.

Third, we hear that Trayvon asks Zimmerman "What's your f***ing problem" and George replies "Nothing. I don't have a problem." Trayvon replies again "Well you do NOW!!" and viciously attacks Zimmerman, for no reason at all.

The longest, according to Zimmerman's side, the "verbal exchange" lasted was three sentences... with Trayvon being the aggressor in all of them.

So it doesn't match with ear witnesses accounts of hearing a longer verbal exchange? Meaning... there was more said between TM and GZ, imo, before the confrontation became physical?

MOO

RANCH
04-07-2012, 01:39 AM
Her statements are contradictory and actually give credence to GZ calling the police, because it was apparently odd to be walking in the neighborhood. From the CNN article page 1.

"I thought it was rather loud, but I had just shut my window because it had just started pouring out rain," the witness said. "And then I thought, 'Oh, my gosh, who's out there walking their dog in the rain?'



...

The witness recounted seeing two men on the grass, one on top of the other. "And at that point, not looking out the window, I heard the yell for help, one yell for help, and then I heard another ... excruciating type of yell. It didn't almost sound like 'help.' It just sounded so painful. But I wasn't watching out the window during that. And then the next time I looked out the window, there's the same thing: two men on the grass, one on top of each other. I couldn't see a lot of movement. It was very dark, but I felt like they were scuffling. And then I heard the gunshots, which, to me, were more like pops than they were like a bang."

The witness recalled hearing more than one shot. "It definitely was more than one pop noise, so I don't know if it was an echo or anything else. But it definitely made more than one pop."

The witness said the shots were audible as one man was on top of the other. But the witness recalled not having been able to see clearly which man was on top because it was dark.


http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-29/justice/justice_florida-teen-shooting_1_witness-voices-window?_s=PM:JUSTICE

I do not understand how this can be considered a clear witness statement since she did not witness the start of the altercation, and she was unable to see clearly due to the rain and darkness. I believe this is the same woman that AB interviewed on AC 360 tonight. She is now contradicting herself and statinging it was GZ that was on top.

Thank you for the link. It appears that this witness was on AC360 last week and Ashleigh Banfield says that their bringing her back and she has a lot more to say this week. The only thing that I see that's been added is that she say's the larger man was on top and she see's the larger man get up. I'm not sure why she didn't say that before and I'm not sure who the "larger man" is that she's describing. I see no other description of who was who other than "larger man". That's a bit vague to me. JMO.

vlpate
04-07-2012, 01:41 AM
The witness said the shots were audible as one man was on top of the other. But the witness recalled not having been able to see clearly which man was on top because it was dark.[/I]



I wonder if is the older woman who kept the 911 operator on the phone forever. She seemed very scared and I felt sorry for her. If this is the same woman, she didn't see much at all. JMO

Thanks for posting this.

i.b.nora
04-07-2012, 01:41 AM
There's a couple of other points that reinforce this "new" body location actually being right in front of this witness's home.

Out of this entire big development, somehow the first responder, Officer Timothy Smith, knew exactly where to park his squad car in order to walk directly between the ends of those buildings and to the body.

To further confirm the location of the body as being behind this witnesses residence, NOTICE THE ADDRESS shown as the incident address on the SPD report!
I have to disagree on this one, with the magical moving body.

It just doesn't match with Tracy Martin's telling of where the police told him the body was, and it doesn't match with the information and photos gleaned by MarinadeDave when he visited the location and actually talked to people who lived there.

Concerned Papa
04-07-2012, 01:41 AM
So this "new" location is further south than first thought, just south of the cutout, right? Do you think where the squad car is is where GZ's vehicle was parked, and that's what led the cops to go there?

I may have confused the issue by having the map posted with south up and north down, LOL.

This is the more standard view for most maps with north being at the top. I have also added the location for GZ's car as described by his father in the Sean Hannity interview posted earlier.

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 01:44 AM
And this IMO,is the whole problem. Why would he appear suspicious? Why does it matter how long Trayvon took to get to/from the store, at what pace he was walking, or why he was outside in the rain.

GZ didn't tell dispatch TM was trying to peer in windows, rattle car door handles, go up to anyone's front door. Nothing indicated he was breaking a law. GZ said TM was walking, looking at all the houses. Did GZ think he should be the only one allowed to roam the complex?

Trayvon should not have to account for doing what we all, as Americans, have the right to do. Live. Without being followed. Without being questioned for no reason. Without being shot dead at 17.

An individual should not have to defend his actions when they are minding their own business, taking a leisurely stroll, maybe staying outside while on the phone for better phone reception or maybe he just wanted some fresh air.
He did nothing that suggested he was going to commit a crime.

Thank you for your post. These are my sentiments exactly.



~jmo~

Concerned Papa
04-07-2012, 01:45 AM
How can the time reported, time dispatched and time arrived all be exactly the same time?

Good question, but I have no idea why.

Allusonz
04-07-2012, 01:46 AM
I wonder if is the older woman who kept the 911 operator on the phone forever. She seemed very scared and I felt sorry for her. If this is the same woman, she didn't see much at all. JMO

Thanks for posting this.

This is whom I believe it to be as well. She was very distraught and it did not seem like she had anyone that she could call.

I felt that the dispatcher was concerned for her and worried for her healthwise.

Chris_Texas
04-07-2012, 01:51 AM
See, Zimmerman seems to exaggerate certain things (I've noticed). It seems that Trayvon had no other option but to walk towards George in order to get home and that turns into "He's walking right towards me now. Yeah, yeah, he's checking me out now." ***not verbatim***

According to Trayvon's girlfriend, Trayvon was not going to run, but walk fast.

We have no idea where Trayvon was when Zimmerman jumped out of the car, but it wasn't until after he had already jumped out of the car that he states he doesn't see Trayvon anymore.

MOO

That entire 911 call reads like a script for a self defense claim. It's practically perfect.

1. Establish backstory: "We've had some break-ins.."

2. Identify bad guy: "He's up to no good, he's on drugs or something, definately messed up"

3. Establish Concerns: "He's staring at me"

4. Elevate Concerns: "He's coming towards me"

5. Establish DANGER: "He's got his hand in his waistband!"

6. Elevate DANGER: "Something is wrong with him! He's coming to check me out! He's got something in his hand! How long until an officer gets here?"

The only problem with this is that it seems likely, to me, that none of it actually happened. In this 911 call Zimmerman is trying to paint this kid as a menacing gun packing gangbanger, and himself as a calm law abiding guardian of the community forced to take him down. And whether the kid is armed or not, it's right there on the 911 tape that Zimmerman had probably cause to think he was.

And, in my opinion, Zimmerman knew it -- he knew exactly what he was saying. He had a gun and in my opinion he really wanted to use it.

The question to ask is this: does ANY of this sound plausible given what we know of Trayvon's following actions (running away, expressing his concerns to his girlfriend, etc)? Did Trayvon REALLY go strutting towards Zimmerman, hand in his waistband like a gangbanger was packing heat, or was this just a set up?

JMO MOO etc

Chris_Texas
04-07-2012, 01:59 AM
I don't understand SYG. Let's say a husband kills his wife in their home and then calls 911. Cops get there and the husband says she attacked me and I feared for my life. There are no witnesses and nothing that disproves his claim. He doesn't get arrested?

Seems so.

HiHater
04-07-2012, 02:01 AM
If the two argued loudly for awhile , why are we only hearing about four sentences of the exchange?

HiHater
04-07-2012, 02:02 AM
The exact address is on the ambulance audio that was recently released. I would link but I am on my phone...

itsreenw
04-07-2012, 02:02 AM
Add Mr. T to the list of people who should STOP HELPING George. FGS, what is a "Trayvon-like dude"???
I don't know why he didn't just say what he meant...Young, minority and dressed just like 10 million other teens that are wearing the latest trend in clothes.

None of those things should be a reason to be considered suspicious without some type of action suggesting you are going to break a law.

Chris_Texas
04-07-2012, 02:10 AM
I am not sure why people are saying the loud argument proves that nobody was blindsided. Couldn't one of them hit or grabbed or punched the other, and then they begin yelling at each other as they continue the struggle?

IMO?

Not a chance. People who are fighting don't usually spend a lot of time arguing, talking, or even screaming. Mostly because they can't -- fighting takes a lot of energy. Arguing is what happens before a fight, screaming comes after.

I suspect when GZ found Trayvon they exchanged a couple words, then Trayvon tried to dodge past him and Zimmerman tackled him (which is why they were off the walk). I think it was at that point that the argument started. And argument that probably rapidly devolved into begging for mercy once Zimmerman got his gun out.

In my opinion this entire thing looks terrible for everyone involved. I think the police need to release the autopsy report AND the photos of Zimmerman's injuries, assuming they exist.

Chris_Texas
04-07-2012, 02:12 AM
IF, and a big IF, it comes out that there was some kind of cover-up, could those who were in on it (officers, etc...) be charged with Accessory After the Fact?

I would assume so. Civil rights violations as well.

mikeysmommom
04-07-2012, 02:21 AM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/06/tagblogsfindlawcom2012-blotter-idUS214913966420120406

Did you know that, on the night of Trayvon Martin's death, Sanford police gave George Zimmerman a voice stress test?

I am sure the police have all they needed to come to the decision to not arrest GZ.In all likelihood he will not be arrested IMO.

i.b.nora
04-07-2012, 02:22 AM
Here is one source for the ambulance audio:

Trayvon Martin Ambulance Audio Recording - YouTube

HiHater
04-07-2012, 02:25 AM
I am sure the police have all they needed to come to the decision to not arrest GZ.In all likelihood he will not be arrested IMO.

I think the reason for the outrage is that they did not. The girlfriends statement, voice analysis, tox reports, etc. were not factors in the decision... JMO IMO

Chris_Texas
04-07-2012, 02:30 AM
I am sure the police have all they needed to come to the decision to not arrest GZ.In all likelihood he will not be arrested IMO.

Sadly, even if they did arrest him, I believe the police screwed this up so badly (and in my opinion, so deliberately) that he will walk out of jail and into a book deal. < mod snip. >

In my opinion of course.

highflyer
04-07-2012, 02:31 AM
I am sure the police have all they needed to come to the decision to not arrest GZ.In all likelihood he will not be arrested IMO.

From what information we have on this site it appears likely that he will be arrested to me, but then we are not privy to everything, and I will quietly abide by whatever the decision is. May lady justice be sweet and fair to all concerned.

Chris_Texas
04-07-2012, 02:48 AM
How do you know he was not? Unless something has come out that I missed no one knows who started the physical confrontation.Do you have a link that GZ was the one who attacked TM?

This is actually irrelevant at this point. We are not discussing assault or battery, but homicide. Even if Trayvon ran up behind him and hit him in the face with a pie, Zimmerman needs to justify shooting the kid. MOO

francie
04-07-2012, 02:51 AM
Here is one source for the ambulance audio:

Trayvon Martin Ambulance Audio Recording - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrKBO9n0Yck)


:tears:

fran
04-07-2012, 02:59 AM
I'm going to close up for the night. See you all tomorrow.

:seeya:

fran

Elley Mae
04-07-2012, 06:26 AM
http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/06/nbc-fires-producer-of-misleading-zimmerman-tape/

NBC News has fired a producer who was involved in the production of a misleading segment about the Trayvon Martin case in Florida

lisalei321
04-07-2012, 06:58 AM
I see we are "open" to post.

Sent from LG Esteem using Tapatalk

LiveLaughLuv
04-07-2012, 07:03 AM
“The defendant stated that the victim stood up and approached him in a threatening manner, at which time he grabbed his Beretta 9 mm, chambered a round of ammunition and pointed it at the victim,” according to a complaint affidavit written by investigator Katherine Bowker. “He further stated the victim stated, ‘What are you going to do now, shoot me?’”

Thompson then shot Barter twice in the chest, Stanford said.

Stanford said the shooting was not in self defense, pointing out that Thompson had already won the physical altercation and could have left the scene without being harmed.
Read more: http://www.newsherald.com/articles/phone-75900-beach-police.html#ixzz1rLqOfS5Y

The above is another example of someone wanting to use the SYG defense...didn't fly here...I certainly hope it doen't fly for GZ...he knew this was a 'kid'...how in the world can anyone justicfy GZ's actions.

Just a few more days before the Grand Jury convenes..:please:

LambChop
04-07-2012, 08:18 AM
When I was a freshman in college I was warned not to open my car window or door if I was pulled over by a cop car with a single officer in it. It seems that a rogue cop in my home county had been pulling over single women driving alone and raping them.

Afterwards he'd tell them if they tried to press charges, he'd charge them with solicitation - a couple of women who did try to press charges actually spent time in jail because of that.

The advice given was to open the window just a crack and pass the officer my driver's license and insurance card through the crack. I did actually do that one night when pulled over by an officer. He asked me about it but as soon as I told him where I was from, he understood since the case was highly publicized.

That was forty years ago. I hope things have improved, but sometimes I despair.

JMO, IMO, etc.

You can request a supervisor, also, as a lone female driver. jmo

Peliman
04-07-2012, 08:23 AM
The question to ask is this: does ANY of this sound plausible given what we know of Trayvon's following actions (running away, expressing his concerns to his girlfriend, etc)? Did Trayvon REALLY go strutting towards Zimmerman, hand in his waistband like a gangbanger was packing heat, or was this just a set up?

JMO MOO etc

It can be debated what suspicious behavior is. I/E

Suspicious Behavior:
What Is It?

A person isn't suspicious, his/her behavior is!

Here is a list of some suspicious signs and behavior:

A person running: If he or she were looking about furtively, as if he or she were being watched or chased.

http://www.rpi.edu/dept/public_safety/safety/suspicious.html

LambChop
04-07-2012, 08:27 AM
I don't know if many would love to believe that as opposed to believing it was something else. I don't think many have weighed that as a significant factor.

But it's possible the kid was scared and crying when he saw a gun pointed at him? And some people do cry right before they die. I have seen it myself.

And usually when one rain drop falls, there are more to follow. Seems like his face would have sprinkled drops all over but I don't understand why you're pointing this out?? Please share if it might shed some light on things that we haven't discussed.

Thanks

When you cry and tear it leaves a trail on your check which could have been visible on the photo. I don't think it would have been mistaken for rain. jmo

LambChop
04-07-2012, 08:47 AM
I thought Tracy Martin's recounting of the events was unassailable truth? What happened? :waitasec:

Mr. Martin was relating what he had been told by LE. What was documented by responding officers and SFD was different. jmo