PDA

View Full Version : 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #18



Pages : 1 2 3 [4]

Elley Mae
04-07-2012, 08:55 AM
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

Interesting I have just been able to watch the video to this article, Tracy Martin walks up to reporter on scene and he doesn't know its Trayvon's dad.

LambChop
04-07-2012, 09:01 AM
It can be debated what suspicious behavior is. I/E

Suspicious Behavior:
What Is It?

A person isn't suspicious, his/her behavior is!

Here is a list of some suspicious signs and behavior:

A person running: If he or she were looking about furtively, as if he or she were being watched or chased.

http://www.rpi.edu/dept/public_safety/safety/suspicious.html

From your link:

One or more people sitting in a parked car checking out the area: They may be lookouts for a crime in progress (burglary/robbery) or for plotting a crime.

So it appears TM would have been within his rights to be suspicious of GZ. jmo

angelmom
04-07-2012, 09:09 AM
I haven't seen this photo of Trayvon before. I love it. Such a nice looking kid. Such a tragic story. Arrest George Zimmerman NOW!

http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2012/04/07/oped/web_photos/trayvon_martin02--300x300.jpg


Thank you for sharing this. It's heartbreaking.


Her statements are contradictory and actually give credence to GZ calling the police, because it was apparently odd to be walking in the neighborhood. From the CNN article page 1.

"I thought it was rather loud, but I had just shut my window because it had just started pouring out rain," the witness said. "And then I thought, 'Oh, my gosh, who's out there walking their dog in the rain?'




Actually, I think this statement points out perfectly how UNjustified GZ's suspicion was. When she thinks there is someone outside, she doesn't automatically assume, "Someone's coming to rob me!" or "Someone's coming to kill me!" even though, presumably, she has also lived in this neighborhood where there have been recent break-ins.

No, she assumes that someone is walking their dog. So, not an unusual thing, but something that has to be done in the rain sometimes. Like getting home if you walked somewhere before the rain started.

LambChop
04-07-2012, 09:18 AM
Thank you for sharing this. It's heartbreaking.



Actually, I think this statement points out perfectly how UNjustified GZ's suspicion was. When she thinks there is someone outside, she doesn't automatically assume, "Someone's coming to rob me!" or "Someone's coming to kill me!" even though, presumably, she has also lived in this neighborhood where there have been recent break-ins.

No, she assumes that someone is walking their dog. So, not an unusual thing, but something that has to be done in the rain sometimes. Like getting home if you walked somewhere before the rain started.

Which also could explain why TM started to run. jmo

JeannaT
04-07-2012, 09:25 AM
From your link:

One or more people sitting in a parked car checking out the area: They may be lookouts for a crime in progress (burglary/robbery) or for plotting a crime.

So it appears TM would have been within his rights to be suspicious of GZ. jmo

Absolutely. Both are within their rights to be suspicious, and very wary, of each other. They are NOT within their rights to bang each other's head on the ground.

At that point, whoever is getting their head pounded is within their rights to shoot the other to death.

This is the core of the entire thing, and all the rest of the story is just extraneous information.

If one is getting their head pummeled by the other, he is within his rights to kill in self-defense. Period.

rbrnmw2
04-07-2012, 09:39 AM
Absolutely. Both are within their rights to be suspicious, and very wary, of each other. They are NOT within their rights to bang each other's head on the ground.

At that point, whoever is getting their head pounded is within their rights to shoot the other to death.

This is the core of the entire thing, and all the rest of the story is just extraneous information.

If one is getting their head pummeled by the other, he is within his rights to kill in self-defense. Period.

I am not at all convinced GZ's head was pummeled into the ground it doesn't make sense and there wasn't enough time. No matter how you add it up,going by the time the gf's call ended and the shot on the 911 call was from 44 sec to 1 min.
IMO that was not enough time for this life or death fight GZ claims took place. MOO

Sent from my Huawei U8800-51 using Tapatalk

JeannaT
04-07-2012, 09:42 AM
I am not at all convinced GZ's head was pummeled into it doesn't make sense and there wasn't enough time. No matter how you add it up,going by the time the gf's call ended and the shot on the 911 call was from 44 sec to 1 min.
IMO that was not enough time for this life or death fight GZ claims took place. MOO

Sent from my Huawei U8800-51 using Tapatalk

How many times can you bang your head on the ground in 44 seconds? A lot.

Even 10 seconds of banging your head on the ground is enough to cause deadly injuries -

I'm certain his injuries, however severe or slight they may be, have been documented. I feel like I've seen enough documentation of them in the CNN video, but I would bet there are much better photos out there.

Concerned Papa
04-07-2012, 09:43 AM
I just noticed that the building on Retreat View has SIX units, not 5 like the one across from it on Twin Trees. This will affect my image. I'll repost in a few.

Peliman
04-07-2012, 09:49 AM
From your link:

One or more people sitting in a parked car checking out the area: They may be lookouts for a crime in progress (burglary/robbery) or for plotting a crime.

So it appears TM would have been within his rights to be suspicious of GZ. jmo

Yes, it would only make sense TM would have been suspicious of GZ. Both of them suspicious of the other.

frenchvixen
04-07-2012, 09:52 AM
Thank you for sharing this. It's heartbreaking.



What a handsome photo of Trayvon. He certainly had a fondness for hoodies. It's usually hot in Florida and my parents live there so I'm there alot. I don't know many people in Florida who have such a big selection of hoodies. I am a huge hoodie fan. I have so many of them but I'm a woman so I don't think anyone would consider me a thug but it's sad to know that his love for hoodies may have played a role in his demise.

Does anyone feel any certain way about the fact that if Trayvon was not suspended he would not have been there in the first place. This fact keeps bothering me. I'm not blaming the victim but I just want to go back in time and change the actions that caused him to be suspended.

rbrnmw2
04-07-2012, 09:53 AM
I thought Tracy Martin's recounting of the events was unassailable truth? What happened? :waitasec:

The SPD told Tracy Martin the wrong location possibly?? Why the vitriol toward Tracy Martin a grieving father? IMO

Sent from my Huawei U8800-51 using Tapatalk

angelmom
04-07-2012, 09:58 AM
What a handsome photo of Trayvon. He certainly had a fondness for hoodies. It's usually hot in Florida and my parents live there so I'm there alot. I don't know many people in Florida who have such a big selection of hoodies. I am a huge hoodie fan. I have so many of them but I'm a woman so I don't think anyone would consider me a thug but it's sad to know that his love for hoodies may have played a role in his demise.

Does anyone feel any certain way about the fact that if Trayvon was not suspended he would not have been there in the first place. This fact keeps bothering me. I'm not blaming the victim but I just want to go back in time and change the actions that caused him to be suspended.

No. If it hadn't been Trayvon, it would have been someone else's child and soon. The one thing Frank Taafe has said that I believe is that GZ had "fed up issues." JMO.

As for the hoodies, my teen boys have all sorts of them. In addition to the ones they have chosen themselves with "Las Vegas" or a favorite college mascot on them, a hoodie is actually part of the team uniform package for every sport they are on in high school. So they have a football one, a lacrosse one, etc. for each season every year. We have tons of them.

And wearing them when it's hot? My middle one wears his even when it is blazing out. We used to call the one that he was allowed to wear to school with the uniform his "woobie" because I practically had to wash it while he was asleep!

frenchvixen
04-07-2012, 09:58 AM
Mary C said the argument started a couple of houses down and TM ended up getting shot right near her back porch. No wonder they are pulling everything from the websites. jmo

How do you know they are pulling everything from the websites? They can't change GM's police report though?

frenchvixen
04-07-2012, 10:05 AM
Yes, it would only make sense TM would have been suspicious of GZ. Both of them suspicious of the other.

A few days ago attorney Ben Crump told Piers that he believed that TM went to his death not knowing who GZ was. He just thought it was a person attacking him. What a scary feeling in the dark of night to be assaulted by an ex-bouncer, a bully really. The more I read about GZ the more I see him as a bully. He would have made a scary police officer.

Beyond Belief
04-07-2012, 10:07 AM
Florida Statutes 776.012(1) states: "A person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another, or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony."

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2012/apr/06/editorial-gov-rick-scott-should-unleash-task-now/?partner=popular

csziggy
04-07-2012, 10:11 AM
I didn't here her say that in CNN interview. That would be a much bigger story than the one she gave. SPD withholding certain 911 calls would be huge.

She may not have said that, but her description of what she saw and heard and the detail from last night's interview that she held the phone up to the screen so the operator could hear the argument, does NOT match any of the released 911 calls.

One thought - did she actually call 911 or did she call a non-emergency number for SPD? I think the 911 calls were only released because the Martin attorneys had asked for them and for GZ's call. If the Martin's request was too specifically worded (original report by GZ and 911 calls about the event) and this woman (and others) called a non-emergency number, a sneaky city attorney could have considered that the other calls were not included in the request.

IMO, JMO, etc.

Inabsentia
04-07-2012, 10:11 AM
A witness has an attorney? ??

I'm sorry to be dense, but what does that mean "and held phone up to screen". Does that mean she photographed what she saw with her phone?

It strains the imagination to think of how GZ got injuries to the back of his head when he was on top during a fight. Also it strains the imagination to think how Trayvon would be losing a hand to hand fight with GZ.

I can think of several other ways Zimmerman could have gotten an injury to the back of his head that evening, if any such injury exists. Moo
Could you please elaborate on why you find it so imagination straining to see Trayvon losing a fight to Zimmerman? You have said this a number of times, and I don't think you have explained how you have come to feel this way. I would really like to know your thoughts on this.

Concerned Papa
04-07-2012, 10:12 AM
Here is one source for the ambulance audio:

Trayvon Martin Ambulance Audio Recording - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrKBO9n0Yck)

This recording clears up where the body of TM was located.

Lying in the grass [1:29]......Behind 2831 Retreat View Circle in the backyard [1:52]

This is the residence of Selma Mora Lamilla and her roommate Mary Cutcher.

Mr. Martin was about 35 feet off from the location he showed us. I can't fault a grieving father for that. I'd still be trying to remember my own name.

**Please accept my apologies for any confusion caused by the earlier image posted last night showing the Retreat View addys. I overlooked the fact that the building has 6 units as opposed to the 5 that I counted on Twin Trees**

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 10:15 AM
What a handsome photo of Trayvon. He certainly had a fondness for hoodies. It's usually hot in Florida and my parents live there so I'm there alot. I don't know many people in Florida who have such a big selection of hoodies. I am a huge hoodie fan. I have so many of them but I'm a woman so I don't think anyone would consider me a thug but it's sad to know that his love for hoodies may have played a role in his demise.

Does anyone feel any certain way about the fact that if Trayvon was not suspended he would not have been there in the first place. This fact keeps bothering me. I'm not blaming the victim but I just want to go back in time and change the actions that caused him to be suspended.

Absolutely not. Trayvon's parents were divorced. Was he not supposed to visit with his father? Perhaps his dad had every other weekend visitation? If Trayvon hadn't been suspended and was just up visiting for the weekend, would it have made it a sadder story? How dare Trayvon be suspended from school, let's just murder him and be done with it.

< mod snip >



~jmo~


~jmo~

imamaze
04-07-2012, 10:19 AM
Just a reminder...

We all should be able to give OUR OPINION without being told we are dishonest etc. ITS OUR OPINION, so if you don't see a link to show something as fact its an opinion. If you want to argue a point that is perfectly fine. We need to respect each others opinons as long as its within TOS. We know what that is... Right?

Ima

Peliman
04-07-2012, 10:20 AM
A few days ago attorney Ben Crump told Piers that he believed that TM went to his death not knowing who GZ was. He just thought it was a person attacking him. What a scary feeling in the dark of night to be assaulted by an ex-bouncer, a bully really. The more I read about GZ the more I see him as a bully. He would have made a scary police officer.

I understand what you're saying but GZ has also said TM was the one who attacked him and to be honest I'm not sure who attacked who.

passionflower
04-07-2012, 10:22 AM
PAPA no apologies needed ever!

JeannaT
04-07-2012, 10:23 AM
I can think of several other ways Zimmerman could have gotten an injury to the back of his head that evening, if any such injury exists. Moo
Could you please elaborate on why you find it so imagination straining to see Teayvon losing a fight to Zimmerman? You have said this a number of times, and I don't think you have expained how you have come to feel this way. I would really like to know your thoughts on this.

My son is a grappler, and when I go to grappling tournaments I can almost always tell who will win the match just by glancing up at the two opponents on the mat before the match begins. It's not height or weight, or really anything tangible. I think actually it's not some hoodoo psychic skill I have, my guess is almost everyone in the audience can look at two men and tell which will win the match.

When I look at GZ and Trayvon, I pick Trayvon. It's my opinion.

Marshmallow
04-07-2012, 10:24 AM
Absolutely. Both are within their rights to be suspicious, and very wary, of each other. They are NOT within their rights to bang each other's head on the ground.

At that point, whoever is getting their head pounded is within their rights to shoot the other to death.

This is the core of the entire thing, and all the rest of the story is just extraneous information.

If one is getting their head pummeled by the other, he is within his rights to kill in self-defense. Period.




when Mr Martin decided to defend himself against his attacker/assailant Mr Zimmerman he had every right to fight off this man who stalked then confronted and attacked him. It was Mr Martin's right to fight off his attacker. Sadly Mr Zimmerman chose to first attack, then kill.

Marshmallow
04-07-2012, 10:30 AM
My son is a grappler, and when I go to grappling tournaments I can almost always tell who will win the match just by glancing up at the two opponents on the mat before the match begins. It's not height or weight, or really anything tangible. I think actually it's not some hoodoo psychic skill I have, my guess is almost everyone in the audience can look at two men and tell which will win the match.

When I look at GZ and Trayvon, I pick Trayvon. It's my opinion.



my son was a wrestler as well. He would have been the one assumed to lose but went to States twice because it isn't always the one we think will win who takes the matches.

If only Mr Zimmerman had chosen to stay in his vehicle and allow the real law enforcement to do their job instead of taking it upon himself to assail Mr Martin <<< my opinion.

raeann
04-07-2012, 10:31 AM
I can think of several other ways Zimmerman could have gotten an injury to the back of his head that evening, if any such injury exists. Moo
Could you please elaborate on why you find it so imagination straining to see Teayvon losing a fight to Zimmerman? You have said this a number of times, and I don't think you have expained how you have come to feel this way. I would really like to know your thoughts on this.

We have witness reports that on TWO known occasions, Zimmerman PICKED UP AND THREW a grown adult woman across the room. Assuming that a small to average adult woman would weigh at least 125 to 135 pounds or so....it is only pure logic to assume that the extra 15 pounds of Trayvon's weight would be of no consequence to Zimmerman in an altercation that he himself was prepared for and instigated by stalking the victim. If he twice before LIFTED AND THREW an adult woman, surely he could hold his own with a young boy!

jmo

LambChop
04-07-2012, 10:36 AM
How do you know they are pulling everything from the websites? They can't change GM's police report though?

I meant SPD's website. It still appears on the media one's I believe. Thanks

csziggy
04-07-2012, 10:39 AM
That entire 911 call reads like a script for a self defense claim. It's practically perfect.

1. Establish backstory: "We've had some break-ins.."

2. Identify bad guy: "He's up to no good, he's on drugs or something, definately messed up"

3. Establish Concerns: "He's staring at me"

4. Elevate Concerns: "He's coming towards me"

5. Establish DANGER: "He's got his hand in his waistband!"

6. Elevate DANGER: "Something is wrong with him! He's coming to check me out! He's got something in his hand! How long until an officer gets here?"

The only problem with this is that it seems likely, to me, that none of it actually happened. In this 911 call Zimmerman is trying to paint this kid as a menacing gun packing gangbanger, and himself as a calm law abiding guardian of the community forced to take him down. And whether the kid is armed or not, it's right there on the 911 tape that Zimmerman had probably cause to think he was.

And, in my opinion, Zimmerman knew it -- he knew exactly what he was saying. He had a gun and in my opinion he really wanted to use it.

The question to ask is this: does ANY of this sound plausible given what we know of Trayvon's following actions (running away, expressing his concerns to his girlfriend, etc)? Did Trayvon REALLY go strutting towards Zimmerman, hand in his waistband like a gangbanger was packing heat, or was this just a set up?

JMO MOO etc

Some of his previous calls were similar down to the exact same phrases:
http://media.miamiherald.com/smedia/2012/03/20/12/34/1kiAJG.So.56.mp3


Police release watch captain’s previous calls

George Zimmerman’s calls show interest in the mundane and in suspicious outsiders.

By Frances Robles
frobles@MiamiHerald.com

From open garage doors to kids dashing into the street and “suspicious characters,” George Zimmerman, neighborhood watch captain at Retreat at Twin Lakes, was on it.

The Seminole County Sheriff’s Office on Monday release tapes of six calls to the police non-emergency number in which Zimmerman called in mundane goings-on at his Sanford townhouse complex — including four times he saw black men loitering.

On the tapes, Zimmerman sounds as if he’s reading from a script, often starting with “We’ve had a lot of break-ins our neighborhood.” In one October call, he said two “suspicious characters” in a white Impala were “just hanging out, loitering.” Another black man in pajama pants and a leather jacket showed up on trash day last month, while two other men spotted in early August matched the description of burglars his wife had seen, he said.

Just as he did with Miami Gardens teenager Trayvon Martin, who was black, Zimmerman sometimes said, “I don’t know what his deal is.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/19/2702809/police-release-watch-captains.html#storylink=cpy


BBM

He also avoided giving his address on at least on call.

IMO, JMO, etc

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 10:41 AM
We have witness reports that on TWO known occasions, Zimmerman PICKED UP AND THREW a grown adult woman across the room. Assuming that a small to average adult woman would weigh at least 125 to 135 pounds or so....it is only pure logic to assume that the extra 15 pounds of Trayvon's weight would be of no consequence to Zimmerman in an altercation that he himself was prepared for and instigated by stalking the victim. If he twice before LIFTED AND THREW an adult woman, surely he could hold his own with a young boy!

jmo

I agree raeann. I think it speaks volumes about the type of person Zimmerman is to know that he can put his hands on a woman in any type of aggressive manner whatsoever. If you will hit or throw a woman, you have no trouble doing that to a kid. Additionally, there were at least two documented instances of him abusing women, the first at the party and the second his fiance.


~jmo~

LambChop
04-07-2012, 10:43 AM
How many times can you bang your head on the ground in 44 seconds? A lot.

Even 10 seconds of banging your head on the ground is enough to cause deadly injuries -

I'm certain his injuries, however severe or slight they may be, have been documented. I feel like I've seen enough documentation of them in the CNN video, but I would bet there are much better photos out there.

I think one bang on cement GZ would have been senseless, two I would think he'd be barely conscious. Repeatedly I doubt he would be able to even pull his gun out. No one saw them on cement only grass. Witness statements, EMT clearing GZ's within minutes of his injuries do not add up to life threatening injuries. Plus the lockup video is showing marks on top of his head, not the back which would be consistent with his head banging on the cement. So until we see a report of his injuries I think it is still a question that is up in the air.

I'm still trying to visualize how someone can bang your head on cement repeatedly when you have no hair??????? jmo

JeannaT
04-07-2012, 10:44 AM
when Mr Martin decided to defend himself against his attacker/assailant Mr Zimmerman he had every right to fight off this man who stalked then confronted and attacked him. It was Mr Martin's right to fight off his attacker. Sadly Mr Zimmerman chose to first attack, then kill.

You and I see it differently. I don't think that Zimmerman, who was carrying a gun, would choose to physically attack Trayvon. Makes no sense to me.

JeannaT
04-07-2012, 10:44 AM
Some of his previous calls were similar down to the exact same phrases:
http://media.miamiherald.com/smedia/2012/03/20/12/34/1kiAJG.So.56.mp3



BBM

He also avoided giving his address on at least on call.

IMO, JMO, etc

Yes. Because he didn't know where Trayvon was, and feared his address would be overheard by him.

LambChop
04-07-2012, 10:46 AM
You and I see it differently. I don't think that Zimmerman, who was carrying a gun, would choose to physically attack Trayvon. Makes no sense to me.

What does make sense is that GZ may have tried to detain TM, stop him from leaving until LE arrived. Isn't that why GZ followed TM? jmo

LambChop
04-07-2012, 10:47 AM
Yes. Because he didn't know where Trayvon was, and feared his address would be overheard by him.

So GZ was already expressing a fear that TM would do him bodily harm. jmo

passionflower
04-07-2012, 10:47 AM
I think one bang on cement GZ would have been senseless, two I would think he'd be barely conscious. Repeatedly I doubt he would be able to even pull his gun out. No one saw them on cement only grass. Witness statements, EMT clearing GZ's within minutes of his injuries do not add up to life threatening injuries. Plus the lockup video is showing marks on top of his head, not the back which would be consistent with his head banging on the cement. So until we see a report of his injuries I think it is still a question that is up in the air.

I'm still trying to visualize how someone can bang your head on cement repeatedly when you have no hair??????? jmo

Also did we ever her if there was GZ blood on the cement?
When my mom fell and cut her head.......blood was everywhere
before we could pick her up.

JeannaT
04-07-2012, 10:48 AM
What does make sense is that GZ may have tried to detain TM, stop him from leaving until LE arrived. Isn't that why GZ followed TM? jmo

I can see that. I don't think that's the most likely, but I can see a situation where GZ may have put his hand on Trayvon's shoulder, although I don't think that's what happened. Maybe. It's possible.

That doesn't mean that GZ has to die for doing that. At the point where he was being pummeled, he had every right to shoot to kill.

This case is an example of two hotheads getting crosswise with each other. But that doesn't mean Zimmerman gives up his right to live.

JeannaT
04-07-2012, 10:50 AM
my son was a wrestler as well. He would have been the one assumed to lose but went to States twice because it isn't always the one we think will win who takes the matches.

If only Mr Zimmerman had chosen to stay in his vehicle and allow the real law enforcement to do their job instead of taking it upon himself to assail Mr Martin <<< my opinion.

Naah. I bet I would have mentally picked him as the winner. ;D

JBean
04-07-2012, 10:51 AM
My son is a grappler, and when I go to grappling tournaments I can almost always tell who will win the match just by glancing up at the two opponents on the mat before the match begins. It's not height or weight, or really anything tangible. I think actually it's not some hoodoo psychic skill I have, my guess is almost everyone in the audience can look at two men and tell which will win the match.

When I look at GZ and Trayvon, I pick Trayvon. It's my opinion.
Personally,I would pick the one with the gun to come out on top every time.

Comparing an evenly matched grappling tournament with 2 parties that know what to expect from one another in terms of a fair fight is hardly what we had in this situation.

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 10:53 AM
I would still really love to know just exactly how Trayvon was able to bang Zimmerman's head on the concrete and cause an injury way up there on his head? I really can't picture that in my mind. I guess Trayvon was holding Zimmerman by his feet, lifting him off the ground, and banging his head causing the injuries that would render him barely conscious, one step away from diapers and being spoon fed and for the life of me, I really can't figure out why Zimmerman wasn't rushed to the ER that night since he was barely conscious. He tried so hard to make everything else fit into his perfect puzzle, to lay the foundation for his self-defense claim, why in the world not go to the hospital to get your injuries documented?



~jmo~

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 10:55 AM
I can see that. I don't think that's the most likely, but I can see a situation where GZ may have put his hand on Trayvon's shoulder, although I don't think that's what happened. Maybe. It's possible.

That doesn't mean that GZ has to die for doing that. At the point where he was being pummeled, he had every right to shoot to kill.

This case is an example of two hotheads getting crosswise with each other. But that doesn't mean Zimmerman gives up his right to live.

Do you happen to have a link handy that shows Trayvon as being a hothead?



~jmo~

JeannaT
04-07-2012, 10:56 AM
Personally,I would pick the one with the gun to come out on top every time.

Comparing an evenly matched grappling tournament with 2 parties that know what to expect from one another in terms of a fair fight is hardly what we had in this situation.

Yes. And that's how it worked out. Grappling is for fun, though, and the opponents don't have to defend their lives. They can "tap out" and the match stops immediately.

Too bad GZ couldn't do that.

LambChop
04-07-2012, 11:00 AM
I can see that. I don't think that's the most likely, but I can see a situation where GZ may have put his hand on Trayvon's shoulder, although I don't think that's what happened. Maybe. It's possible.

That doesn't mean that GZ has to die for doing that. At the point where he was being pummeled, he had every right to shoot to kill.

This case is an example of two hotheads getting crosswise with each other. But that doesn't mean Zimmerman gives up his right to live.

When you put your hand on someone who views it as a threat it's battery. Confronting someone who views you as a threat is an assault. If GZ tried to detain TM by touching him, TM had every right to resist. jmo

csziggy
04-07-2012, 11:00 AM
How do you know they are pulling everything from the websites? They can't change GM's police report though?
They did it yesterday.

Trayvon Martin Investigation

The office of the State Attorney, 4th Judicial Circuit, State Attorney Angela Corey has requested that the City of Sanford remove all reports, videos and audio pertaining to the Martin/Zimmerman case from the website. Their office has provided legal justification for the action and they believe further access to the information will have an adverse effect on their efforts to come to a resolution to this investigation.
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

raeann
04-07-2012, 11:01 AM
Yes. And that's how it worked out. Grappling is for fun, though, and the opponents don't have to defend their lives. They can "tap out" and the match stops immediately.

Too bad GZ couldn't do that.


BBM

He COULD have....he SHOULD have......too bad he DIDN'T do that.....



jmo

Inabsentia
04-07-2012, 11:03 AM
My son is a grappler, and when I go to grappling tournaments I can almost always tell who will win the match just by glancing up at the two opponents on the mat before the match begins. It's not height or weight, or really anything tangible. I think actually it's not some hoodoo psychic skill I have, my guess is almost everyone in the audience can look at two men and tell which will win the match.

When I look at GZ and Trayvon, I pick Trayvon. It's my opinion.

When you say "the imagination" and not "my imagination" it seems to imply that your incredulousness should be universal. Thanks for clarifying.

rotterdam
04-07-2012, 11:03 AM
O/T. My 21 year old son finally got a full time job at a small sign company several weeks ago. Yesterday , they gave him four black free hoodies with the company name on the back in white letters. Just for the record.

csziggy
04-07-2012, 11:04 AM
This recording clears up where the body of TM was located.

Lying in the grass [1:29]......Behind 2831 Retreat View Circle in the backyard [1:52]

This is the residence of Selma Mora Lamilla and her roommate Mary Cutcher.

Mr. Martin was about 35 feet off from the location he showed us. I can't fault a grieving father for that. I'd still be trying to remember my own name.

**Please accept my apologies for any confusion caused by the earlier image posted last night showing the Retreat View addys. I overlooked the fact that the building has 6 units as opposed to the 5 that I counted on Twin Trees**

Maybe the police did not give Tracy Martin an address, just told him "At the end of the last building in this row of townhouses" or some such language. Mr. Martin could have assumed that it was at the far end of the building, which was where he was in the videos of his walk through. Instead, according to the ambulance audio, it was at the end nearest where Mr. Martin was staying.

IMO, JMO, etc.

JeannaT
04-07-2012, 11:04 AM
BBM

He COULD have....he SHOULD have......too bad he DIDN'T do that.....



jmo

I think maybe you don't know the term "tap out".

That's when one opponent taps on the other opponent, and that signals the end of the match.

No, GZ couldn't "tap out" of a fight with Trayvon. It wasn't a game.

Inabsentia
04-07-2012, 11:09 AM
Since we are talking about grappling as a sport I wanted to repeat a post I made in an earlier thread. Hope that's okay, I type too slowly to do it over anew.


I just wanted to say that I find it extremely difficult to believe that George Zimmerman could have been getting the worst of it in a fight with Trayvon Martin. I find it extremely difficult to believe that George Martin could have been afraid of suffering great bodily harm from Trayvon Martin. I feel this so strongly for two reasons.

First, using the weights reported by both families Trayvon weighed between 140 and 145 pounds, and George Zimmerman weighed 190. Are these weights accurate? I don't know for sure, but the police report weights seem to be guesses so I am going to go with them. I suspect 190 is a little light for Zimmerman but I will go with it. These weight differences would put them 4 or 5 weight classes apart in professional boxing, and at least 4 weight classes apart in high school wrestling. The heavier fighter would never be allowed into the ring with the lighter because of the unfair advantage he would have.

Secondly, George Zimmerman is reported to have multiple years of experience as a bouncer/private security. This is not a field you survive in for months, let alone years, if you are easily frightened at the possibility of getting hit. This is not a field you last long in if you do not know how to fight, and more importantly, how to restrain someone who is trying to hurt you without hurting them. You must be able to face down and remove people who are drunk, belligerant and possibly way larger than you. I find it impossible to believe that anyone who spent years as a bouncer could be reduced to those wails of terror in less than two minutes by a skinny, unarmed kid he outweighed by forty or fifty pounds. Moo
Last edited by Inabsentia; 04-05-2012 at 09:54 AM. Reason: Grammar

LambChop
04-07-2012, 11:09 AM
O/T. My 21 year old son finally got a full time job at a small sign company several weeks ago. Yesterday , they gave him four black free hoodies with the company name on the back in white letters. Just for the record.

Hope the writing on the back is in NEON. jmo

LambChop
04-07-2012, 11:13 AM
Since we are talking about grappling as a sport I wanted to repeat a post I made in an earlier thread. Hope that's okay, I type too slowly to do it over anew.


I just wanted to say that I find it extremely difficult to believe that George Zimmerman could have been getting the worst of it in a fight with Trayvon Martin. I find it extremely difficult to believe that George Martin could have been afraid of suffering great bodily harm from Trayvon Martin. I feel this so strongly for two reasons.

First, using the weights reported by both families Trayvon weighed between 140 and 145 pounds, and George Zimmerman weighed 190. Are these weights accurate? I don't know for sure, but the police report weights seem to be guesses so I am going to go with them. I suspect 190 is a little light for Zimmerman but I will go with it. These weight differences would put them 4 or 5 weight classes apart in professional boxing, and at least 4 weight classes apart in high school wrestling. The heavier fighter would never be allowed into the ring with the lighter because of the unfair advantage he would have.

Secondly, George Zimmerman is reported to have multiple years of experience as a bouncer/private security. This is not a field you survive in for months, let alone years, if you are easily frightened at the possibility of getting hit. This is not a field you last long in if you do not know how to fight, and more importantly, how to restrain someone who is trying to hurt you without hurting them. You must be able to face down and remove people who are drunk, belligerant and possibly way larger than you. I find it impossible to believe that anyone who spent years as a bouncer could be reduced to those wails of terror in less than two minutes by a skinny, unarmed kid he outweighed by forty or fifty pounds. Moo
Last edited by Inabsentia; 04-05-2012 at 09:54 AM. Reason: Grammar

I'd really like to know if GZ ever took self defense classes and if that is how he knew of his attorney? If you were shopping for a criminal attorney I don't think this man would just pop right up on the internet while you are doing a search. jmo

JeannaT
04-07-2012, 11:14 AM
So GZ was already expressing a fear that TM would do him bodily harm. jmo

No. I think he was expressing a fear that Trayvon might come break into his home, which was the crime that the neighborhood was dealing with, that caused the formation of the Neighborhood Watch.

If he was afraid that Trayvon would do him great bodily harm, he would not have followed him, or at least would have drawn his gun. At which point, there would have been no physical altercation.

raeann
04-07-2012, 11:14 AM
I think maybe you don't know the term "tap out".

That's when one opponent taps on the other opponent, and that signals the end of the match.

No, GZ couldn't "tap out" of a fight with Trayvon. It wasn't a game.

You are absolutely right.....it wasn't a game....but since your comparison was made between an innocuous sporting event and a violent death, one must use metaphor to compare the ways to "tap out" in these completely dissimilar situations.

Being QUITE familiar with the term "tap out", it is an absolute FACT that there are many ways that GZ could (metaphorically) have "signaled the end of the match". NONE OF THOSE WAYS involves the use of a gun to kill an innocent teen....

jmo

itsreenw
04-07-2012, 11:14 AM
No. If it hadn't been Trayvon, it would have been someone else's child and soon. The one thing Frank Taafe has said that I believe is that GZ had "fed up issues." JMO.

As for the hoodies, my teen boys have all sorts of them. In addition to the ones they have chosen themselves with "Las Vegas" or a favorite college mascot on them, a hoodie is actually part of the team uniform package for every sport they are on in high school. So they have a football one, a lacrosse one, etc. for each season every year. We have tons of them.

And wearing them when it's hot? My middle one wears his even when it is blazing out. We used to call the one that he was allowed to wear to school with the uniform his "woobie" because I practically had to wash it while he was asleep!BBM, Angelmom, ITA. We have a large extended family. My niece is a softball player at UC Santa Barbara, our youngest son plays football and baseball, our cousin is a basketball center for UC Santa Clara, etc..

In addition to the kids having their team hoodies, we have hoodies for each team to show our support at games. We also get the kids other hoodies because its cold in the mornings, but gets too warm for a coat in the afternoon. They can fold hoodies and put them in their backpacks.

I was done with this post but I had to add this...my fiance just walked in the room. He is a black male. 6', 185 lbs. He has on jeans and a black hoodie. He has a Glock .45 holstered on his waistband under his hoodie. I can't see it. I just know that because I know he doesn't leave home without it.

By GZ's description of a suspicious person, my fiance would definitely fit the bill. But in addition to the hoodie, the gun and Black skin, he also has a badge. He's a veteran cop in Richmond, CA, one of the most crime ridden cities in the country. He has never had to shoot a suspect.

Police officers are trained to deal with situations like the one GZ created. GZ was not trained but the law allowed him to carry a gun and make his own determination of when he should use it. I think the law makers are even more at fault than GZ.

GZ had no idea who he was following. It could've been a cop..or just a kid walking around. He automatically assumed the worst. You should never judge a book by its cover.

JeannaT
04-07-2012, 11:16 AM
You are absolutely right.....it wasn't a game....but since your comparison was made between an innocuous sporting event and a violent death, one must use metaphor to compare the ways to "tap out" in these completely dissimilar situations.

Being QUITE familiar with the term "tap out", it is an absolute FACT that there are many ways that GZ could (metaphorically) have "signaled the end of the match". NONE OF THOSE WAYS involves the use of a gun to kill an innocent teen....

jmo

My comparison was made when i was asked to say why I believe that Trayvon would win a physical fight. I said I watch grappling and I can almost always (as most can, probably) tell who will win just by looking at the two on the mat before the match begins.

The comparison was just to demonstrate that it's quite possible to see who would win a physical match.

Not that Trayvon and GZ were grappling, although some here have continued to think that GZ could have just tapped out instead of having to shoot Trayvon.

I'm TRULY curious. How do two men in a fight end it by one signaling the end? If you're thinking he could have drawn his gun and pointed it, there have certainly been deaths of gun owners when their guns are wrestled away from them. It's not effective, in a fight, to draw and point your gun and believe it will end there after the fight has begun and the two combatants are still in contact.

tehcloser
04-07-2012, 11:21 AM
My comparison was made when i was asked to say why I believe that Trayvon would win a physical fight. I said I watch grappling and I can almost always (as most can, probably) tell who will win just by looking at the two on the mat before the match begins.

The comparison was just to demonstrate that it's quite possible to see who would win a physical match.

Not that Trayvon and GZ were grappling, although some here have continued to think that GZ could have just tapped out instead of having to shoot Trayvon.

I'm TRULY curious. How do two men in a fight end it by one signaling the end? If you're thinking he could have drawn his gun and pointed it, there have certainly been deaths of gun owners when their guns are wrestled away from them. It's not effective, in a fight, to draw and point your gun and believe it will end there after the fight has begun and the two combatants are still in contact.


bbm

It wasn't two men......it was one over zealous guy with a gun and a teenager. <mod snip>

Inabsentia
04-07-2012, 11:28 AM
Speaking of knowing his attorney, here is something I found interesting about George Zimmerman's first choice.

Craig Sonner spent three years, from 2003-2005, working as a prosecutor for the Seminole County State Attorney's office. He worked for Norm Wolfinger prosecuting misdemeanors and DUIs. He was initially contacted about the case by George's father. I found it strange that Zimmerman would hire an attorney with no homicide experience, but now I wonder if he was chosen for his connections, or based on a recommendation by a former employer? Moo

What do you guys think?
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-03/news/os-george-zimmerman-lawyer-sonner-20120403_1_defense-team-lawrence-o-donnell-wofl-channel

Isabelle
04-07-2012, 11:29 AM
I think maybe you don't know the term "tap out".

That's when one opponent taps on the other opponent, and that signals the end of the match.

No, GZ couldn't "tap out" of a fight with Trayvon. It wasn't a game.

And, GZ wasn't going to let this one get away, like the others as he stated during the 911 call or whoever he called.

Isabelle
04-07-2012, 11:30 AM
Speaking of knowing his attorney, here is something I found interesting about George Zimmerman's first choice.

Craig Sonner spent three years, from 2003-2005, working as a prosecutor for the Seminole County State Attorney's office. He worked for Norm Wolfinger prosecuting misdemeanors and DUIs. He was initially contacted about the case by George's father. I found it strange that Zimmerman would hire an attorney with no homicide experience, but now I wonder if he was chosen for his connections, or based on a recommendation by a former employer? Moo

What do you guys think?
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-03/news/os-george-zimmerman-lawyer-sonner-20120403_1_defense-team-lawrence-o-donnell-wofl-channel

Certainly connections were important! Aren't they almost always?

csziggy
04-07-2012, 11:31 AM
This recording clears up where the body of TM was located.

Lying in the grass [1:29]......Behind 2831 Retreat View Circle in the backyard [1:52]

This is the residence of Selma Mora Lamilla and her roommate Mary Cutcher.

Mr. Martin was about 35 feet off from the location he showed us. I can't fault a grieving father for that. I'd still be trying to remember my own name.

**Please accept my apologies for any confusion caused by the earlier image posted last night showing the Retreat View addys. I overlooked the fact that the building has 6 units as opposed to the 5 that I counted on Twin Trees**

FYI - Some of the reports list the body as being between 1231 Twin Trees Lane and 2831 Retreat View Circle. 1231 Twin Trees is the middle unit in the row of townhouses across from 2831 Retreat View.

Where are you doing your property searches? The Seminole County Property Appraisers Office site does not have information on the two units north of 1231. It's weird - I've searched by address and parcel number and those two units simply do not come up. They are both listed on real estate sites as being for sale, so maybe they've never sold and the builder still has them, but the units should still show on the Property Appraiser's site!

ThoughtFox
04-07-2012, 11:35 AM
O/T. My 21 year old son finally got a full time job at a small sign company several weeks ago. Yesterday , they gave him four black free hoodies with the company name on the back in white letters. Just for the record.
rotterdam: Thanks ~ you've hit on the main problem with identifying someone as a threat just because they are wearing a hoodie.

When my daughter was a baby, she had an adorable red hoodie with little animals on it. When her two brothers grew into it, they also wore it, and I still have it because I'm sentimental. I never knew that my sweet babies might be considered threatening because they wore a hoodie to keep their ears warm.

In my county school system, hoodies in school colors are the ONLY approved coat that kids can wear to school in the winter. And that is for every school in every neighborhood, city or rural, and there is absolutely nothing racial about it.

In fact, it is just a way to make sure that kids can be easily identified as belonging on a certain school campus for safety reasons, and that goes back to the Columbine Killers - the white kids who wore black military trench coats to hide large weapons before they massacred people in their schools.

In my state, every school band has a special hoodie, and every school sports team has a specific hoodie, that is part of the UNIFORM. I'm sure Trayvon had a hoodie for his football team because my son had one for his team - all 8 years that he played. There is nothing negative whatsoever about a hoodie worn for sports. Coaches wear them, and they sell them for parents, too!

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 11:38 AM
A Conversation With Trayvon Martin's Mother

I have no time for anger. I don't want to grant it a place in my heart. I simply want justice. I don't hate him and I'm not angry at him. But my son died and we deserve to know what happened. It's not for the police to determine justice. It's for the courts. And we'll stand by what the court says. But that's what I'm focused on. We want an arrest. But it's not out of anger or hatred. I have too much to do to be sidetracked with any of that. But when your son dies and there isn't even an arrest, it makes it so much harder.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-shmuley-boteach/sybrina-fulton-trayvon-martin_b_1409832.html

LambChop
04-07-2012, 11:41 AM
No. I think he was expressing a fear that Trayvon might come break into his home, which was the crime that the neighborhood was dealing with, that caused the formation of the Neighborhood Watch.

If he was afraid that Trayvon would do him great bodily harm, he would not have followed him, or at least would have drawn his gun. At which point, there would have been no physical altercation.

But this was GZ's fear. Why did TM have to die because GZ was fearful of what??? GZ had nothing to validate that fear because it was just a 17 year old walking back to the house after running out to the store. GZ sized TM up without any substantial facts, just his gut feelings. LE would have come out, stopped TM asked him where he was going and they would have been on their way. Animals sense fear in people and I believe that is true of people. We already know GZ presents himself as being fearful by his tone of voice and what he says on the tape. So if he was really fearful why did he go after TM. If he was really fearful TM would have also picked up on that and would be fearful himself. That is why LE should have handled it. They know how to handle situations when approaching a subject. jmo

Isabelle
04-07-2012, 11:42 AM
Wonder if SA asked SPD to remove all info from their website? Could that be an indication that action may be taken very soon, possibly an arrest. That information won't be available to the potential pool of jurors.

ynotdivein
04-07-2012, 11:42 AM
The neo-Nazi story falls under this umbrella:


<snip>

We will no longer allow discussion of Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, or the Black Panther protest(s). There are way too many <modsnips> and timeouts to continue this discussion. We will allow MSM links to such protests, but no discussion.

jjenny
04-07-2012, 11:45 AM
Speaking of knowing his attorney, here is something I found interesting about George Zimmerman's first choice.

Craig Sonner spent three years, from 2003-2005, working as a prosecutor for the Seminole County State Attorney's office. He worked for Norm Wolfinger prosecuting misdemeanors and DUIs. He was initially contacted about the case by George's father. I found it strange that Zimmerman would hire an attorney with no homicide experience, but now I wonder if he was chosen for his connections, or based on a recommendation by a former employer? Moo

What do you guys think?
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-03/news/os-george-zimmerman-lawyer-sonner-20120403_1_defense-team-lawrence-o-donnell-wofl-channel

Why would his former employee recommend someone without experience of defending those accused of homicide? I am not sure this lawyer was even familiar with "stand your ground" laws based on the original quotes in the media that Zimmerman will not be using "stand your ground" laws. If I was accused of anything I would want someone with experience in the type of cases I was accused of.

Steft50
04-07-2012, 11:49 AM
rotterdam: Thanks ~ you've hit on the main problem with identifying someone as a threat just because they are wearing a hoodie.

When my daughter was a baby, she had an adorable red hoodie with little animals on it. When her two brothers grew into it, they also wore it, and I still have it because I'm sentimental. I never knew that my sweet babies might be considered threatening because they wore a hoodie to keep their ears warm.

In my county school system, hoodies in school colors are the ONLY approved coat that kids can wear to school in the winter. And that is for every school in every neighborhood, city or rural, and there is absolutely nothing racial about it.

In fact, it is just a way to make sure that kids can be easily identified as belonging on a certain school campus for safety reasons, and that goes back to the Columbine Killers - the white kids who wore black military trench coats to hide large weapons before they massacred people in their schools.

In my state, every school band has a special hoodie, and every school sports team has a specific hoodie, that is part of the UNIFORM. I'm sure Trayvon had a hoodie for his football team because my son had one for his team - all 8 years that he played. There is nothing negative whatsoever about a hoodie worn for sports. Coaches wear them, and they sell them for parents, too!

BBM

I'm going to take that statement further and say there is nothing wrong with wearing hoodies at all, for anyone!

I'm a 50something yr old white woman who wears hoodies all winter long. I wear them because they are warm, soft, comfy, and I can pull the hood up when my ears get cold! Since I have super short hair that is quite often!

Really, folks need to get over the issues they have with clothing. If there are those that are so fearful of something in every day life then mayhaps they need to look at the world thru better eyes than ones filled with fear.

LambChop
04-07-2012, 11:49 AM
A Conversation With Trayvon Martin's Mother

I have no time for anger. I don't want to grant it a place in my heart. I simply want justice. I don't hate him and I'm not angry at him. But my son died and we deserve to know what happened. It's not for the police to determine justice. It's for the courts. And we'll stand by what the court says. But that's what I'm focused on. We want an arrest. But it's not out of anger or hatred. I have too much to do to be sidetracked with any of that. But when your son dies and there isn't even an arrest, it makes it so much harder.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-shmuley-boteach/sybrina-fulton-trayvon-martin_b_1409832.html

An amazing woman. Thanks

Isabelle
04-07-2012, 11:58 AM
Yes, SA did request that all information concerning this case be removed from the SPD website. Information concerning this request is on the SPD site.

kimpage
04-07-2012, 12:17 PM
A Conversation With Trayvon Martin's Mother

I have no time for anger. I don't want to grant it a place in my heart. I simply want justice. I don't hate him and I'm not angry at him. But my son died and we deserve to know what happened. It's not for the police to determine justice. It's for the courts. And we'll stand by what the court says. But that's what I'm focused on. We want an arrest. But it's not out of anger or hatred. I have too much to do to be sidetracked with any of that. But when your son dies and there isn't even an arrest, it makes it so much harder.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-shmuley-boteach/sybrina-fulton-trayvon-martin_b_1409832.html
Sybrina Fulton has so much class!!!!!!!!! I could not be that way if it was my child who was Murdered..... IMHO JMHO and all that

dsntslp
04-07-2012, 12:17 PM
Just counted...

14 hoodies in my 25 YO W/F daughters closet and 6 in my 4YO W/M GS closet.

Not ONE regular sweatshirt with no hood to be found.

Florida.

HTH,

DSN

fran
04-07-2012, 12:20 PM
ATTENTION PLEASE

I'd like to request you be courteous, and NOT sleuth the neighbors and the possible witness (John) to the incident. IF the MSMs can respect his privacy by not stating his name and not showing his face, that's what we should do as well, as responsible adults.

Yes, there was one witness who collaborated GZ's story. But we've seen what happens when the public becomes aware of anyone even close to supporting GZ, referring to the erroneous release of incorrect address for GZ and the threats, intimdations, including GZ's parents.

Until this gentleman elects to come forward, please respect his privacy. It is an important part of the story, as he did say he was originally outside and an eye-witness, but LE isn't talking about it now and neither are the msm's. So let's hold off discussing this witness.

tia
fran

marlame
04-07-2012, 12:39 PM
Yes, SA did request that all information concerning this case be removed from the SPD website. Information concerning this request is on the SPD site.

Could it be that they removed the info because Trayvon was a minor/child under the age of 18?

This has nagged at me for a while now and I am just going to toss it out to see what others think…

At the age of 17, Trayvon was still legally a child. Why didn’t LE arrested GZ on suspicion of Child Abuse once they realized Trayvon was unarmed and under age of 18?

This guy was arrested for hitting 17 year-old (his daughter)…
http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/region_s_palm_beach_county/boynton_beach/suburban-boynton-dad-charged-with-tackling-punching-daughter-17

Is there a possibility GZ be charged with Child Abuse?

JMHO~

frenchvixen
04-07-2012, 12:40 PM
Absolutely not. Trayvon's parents were divorced. Was he not supposed to visit with his father? Perhaps his dad had every other weekend visitation? If Trayvon hadn't been suspended and was just up visiting for the weekend, would it have made it a sadder story? How dare Trayvon be suspended from school, let's just murder him and be done with it.

< mod snip >




~jmo~


~jmo~


No, I'm not saying that at all. I was just thinking to myself that if it was a Sunday night then he would be getting ready for school in Miami and would not have been there. But, you're right it could have been spring break or a holiday but I don't think on that Sunday, Feb. 26th he would have been there at that time at that moment had he not been suspended. I'm just trying to turn back the clock that's all. I know, it sounds crazy...

HiHater
04-07-2012, 12:42 PM
BBM, Angelmom, ITA. We have a large extended family. My niece is a softball player at UC Santa Barbara, our youngest son plays football and baseball, our cousin is a basketball center for UC Santa Clara, etc..

In addition to the kids having their team hoodies, we have hoodies for each team to show our support at games. We also get the kids other hoodies because its cold in the mornings, but gets too warm for a coat in the afternoon. They can fold hoodies and put them in their backpacks.

I was done with this post but I had to add this...my fiance just walked in the room. He is a black male. 6', 185 lbs. He has on jeans and a black hoodie. He has a Glock .45 holstered on his waistband under his hoodie. I can't see it. I just know that because I know he doesn't leave home without it.

By GZ's description of a suspicious person, my fiance would definitely fit the bill. But in addition to the hoodie, the gun and Black skin, he also has a badge. He's a veteran cop in Richmond, CA, one of the most crime ridden cities in the country. He has never had to shoot a suspect.

Police officers are trained to deal with situations like the one GZ created. GZ was not trained but the law allowed him to carry a gun and make his own determination of when he should use it. I think the law makers are even more at fault than GZ.

GZ had no idea who he was following. It could've been a cop..or just a kid walking around. He automatically assumed the worst. You should never judge a book by its cover.

:goodpost::goodpost::goodpost:

For so many reasons...

HiHater
04-07-2012, 12:46 PM
You and I see it differently. I don't think that Zimmerman, who was carrying a gun, would choose to physically attack Trayvon. Makes no sense to me.

He would try to detain him, and he may not have thought that a kid would fight back. Even at 6'0 to 6'3 he knew that Trayvon was a kid...The gun gave him the power to do that...he knew he had the upperhand.

IMO

frenchvixen
04-07-2012, 12:47 PM
Yes. And that's how it worked out. Grappling is for fun, though, and the opponents don't have to defend their lives. They can "tap out" and the match stops immediately.

Too bad GZ couldn't do that.

Jenna T, your comment about "shooting to kill" reminded me of a question that I wanted to ask a few days ago. Why did GZ shoot to kill. Only cops are trained to shoot to kill? I think there is something delusional about GZ by those actions. Did he have to kill TM? He could have shot him in the foot and gotten his attention. It would have definately quelled the fight and by that time the cops would have arrived. Why did he aim for the kill?

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 12:49 PM
I really wish we had an autopsy report. I would like to know what injuries Trayvon had, besides the fatal gunshot wound, because everything that has come out from George's side has made it seem like George just sat back and allowed Trayvon to beat on him and 45 seconds later, he had snapped out of it and grabbed his gun?

MOO

LambChop
04-07-2012, 12:54 PM
Jenna T, your comment about "shooting to kill" reminded me of a question that I wanted to ask a few days ago. Why did GZ shoot to kill. Only cops are trained to shoot to kill? I think there is something delusional about GZ by those actions. Did he have to kill TM? He could have shot him in the foot and gotten his attention. It would have definately quelled the fight and by that time the cops would have arrived. Why did he aim for the kill?

If what witnesses are saying is true and there was shouting before their wrestling match I can't imagine TM not telling GZ he was staying there. Would that have made GZ feel embarrassed when LE showed up? Would GZ have automatically assumed that TM was lying and TM tried to continue on home only to have GZ stop him? There really is a lot here that makes little sense. Only an investigation and trying to piece together the events can tell us what could have happened. I don't think we will ever get a straight story from GZ. He will never admit he made a fatal error in targeting TM. jmo

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 12:56 PM
A Conversation With Trayvon Martin's Mother

I have no time for anger. I don't want to grant it a place in my heart. I simply want justice. I don't hate him and I'm not angry at him. But my son died and we deserve to know what happened. It's not for the police to determine justice. It's for the courts. And we'll stand by what the court says. But that's what I'm focused on. We want an arrest. But it's not out of anger or hatred. I have too much to do to be sidetracked with any of that. But when your son dies and there isn't even an arrest, it makes it so much harder.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-shmuley-boteach/sybrina-fulton-trayvon-martin_b_1409832.html

My soul aches for her!

I'm going to keep hold of this article and repost it as necessary because this pretty much sums up what this family has wanted since day #1. Any parent would want the same.

Thanks for posting this!

LambChop
04-07-2012, 01:00 PM
No, I'm not saying that at all. I was just thinking to myself that if it was a Sunday night then he would be getting ready for school in Miami and would not have been there. But, you're right it could have been spring break or a holiday but I don't think on that Sunday, Feb. 26th he would have been there at that time at that moment had he not been suspended. I'm just trying to turn back the clock that's all. I know, it sounds crazy...

Plus it's right outside of Orlando and people visit that area to vacation at Disney all year round. Some parents don't aways wait until holidays, vacations to visit area family members when they want to visit DisneyWorld. jmo

jjenny
04-07-2012, 01:09 PM
Jenna T, your comment about "shooting to kill" reminded me of a question that I wanted to ask a few days ago. Why did GZ shoot to kill. Only cops are trained to shoot to kill? I think there is something delusional about GZ by those actions. Did he have to kill TM? He could have shot him in the foot and gotten his attention. It would have definately quelled the fight and by that time the cops would have arrived. Why did he aim for the kill?

It is much easier to shoot someone into the body mass than into the foot.
That's why policemen are trained to shoot into body mass. Why do you expect private citizen be able to shoot better than trained policemen?

jjenny
04-07-2012, 01:11 PM
I really wish we had an autopsy report. I would like to know what injuries Trayvon had, besides the fatal gunshot wound, because everything that has come out from George's side has made it seem like George just sat back and allowed Trayvon to beat on him and 45 seconds later, he had snapped out of it and grabbed his gun?

MOO

Well that funeral home director claimed he had none.

Storm
04-07-2012, 01:17 PM
And what other reason would GZ have in telling op to have LE call him when they arrived, except that he knew he wasn't going to be in one place, but would be trailing TM!?


I can see that. I don't think that's the most likely, but I can see a situation where GZ may have put his hand on Trayvon's shoulder, although I don't think that's what happened. Maybe. It's possible.

That doesn't mean that GZ has to die for doing that. At the point where he was being pummeled, he had every right to shoot to kill.

This case is an example of two hotheads getting crosswise with each other. But that doesn't mean Zimmerman gives up his right to live.


I still fail to see the logic in a lot of this...one man is driving...one kid is walking...happens every day in this entire country. What makes this different is the man driving decides to get out of his vehicle with a gun and approach the walker with absolutely no valid reason to do so. He killed Trayvon..he knew he had a gun...what did he expect Trayvon to do? Stand his ground and let himself be abused for no reason? ^i^

Storm
04-07-2012, 01:20 PM
It is much easier to shoot someone into the body mass than into the foot.
That's why policemen are trained to shoot into body mass. Why do you expect private citizen be able to shoot better than trained policemen?

I don't expect private citizens to be shooting a people at all..unless their home or property is invaded and their own life is in danger ^i^

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 01:20 PM
Well that funeral home director claimed he had none.

As I did when this funeral director came out with this information, I will wait for the medical examiner's autopsy report. No offense to the funeral director?

MOO

fran
04-07-2012, 01:36 PM
Attention Please!

I've seen lots of news links on this open thread for Trayvon. Did you all know we have a "Media Only" thread for this case as well? I'd like to invite you to post any news articles that you come across of this case at the link below. It's for no discussion, just links, please.

tia
fran

ETA, Oh, and I don't think I need to remind you of links we're not allowing. Only MSM, please, no blogs.


Trayvon Martin Shooting Media Thread - NO DISCUSSION - Page 3 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

LambChop
04-07-2012, 02:08 PM
It is much easier to shoot someone into the body mass than into the foot.
That's why policemen are trained to shoot into body mass. Why do you expect private citizen be able to shoot better than trained policemen?

LE is trained to not shoot until necessary and to try to disarm the suspect if at all possible. But TM was not armed. LE also does have numerous ways to disarm and secure a suspect so shooting someone is a last resort. My son-in-law is a sharp shooter and could shoot the gun right out of someone's hand so why would he aim for the body mass. LE has to qualify regularily on the police shooting range so they don't have to kill suspects. It's really, really the last thing a police officer wants to do. And I know they receive extensive training on how to disarm a suspect. GZ did not have that advantage and that is another reason why he should have waited.

If TM were on top of GZ TM's leg would have been right there. That would have certainly put a stop to the wrestling because TM would have rolled off of him. I hate to say it but I think GZ knew exactly what he was doing and TM is not alive to give a conflicting story. IMO, GZ truly might have thought this was all going to blow over. jmo

Darkman00
04-07-2012, 02:10 PM
NBC Fires Producer of Misleading Zimmerman Tape

http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/06/nbc-fires-producer-of-misleading-zimmerman-tape/

NBC News has fired a producer who was involved in the production of a misleading segment about the Trayvon Martin case in Florida.
Similar article is HERE:
http://www.freep.com/usatoday/article/54098132?odyssey=mod%7Cnewswell%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE %7Cp

...NBC's Today show first aired the edited version of Zimmerman's call on March 27. The recording viewers heard was trimmed to suggest that Zimmerman volunteered to police, with no prompting, that Martin was black: "This guy looks like he's up to no good. He looks black."

But the portion of the tape that was deleted had the 911 dispatcher asking Zimmerman if the person who had raised his suspicion was "black, white or Hispanic," to which Zimmerman responded, "He looks black."...

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 02:16 PM
LE is trained to not shoot until necessary and to try to disarm the suspect if at all possible. But TM was not armed. LE also does have numerous ways to disarm and secure a suspect so shooting someone is a last resort. My son-in-law is a sharp shooter and could shoot the gun right out of someone's hand so why would he aim for the body mass. LE has to qualify regularily on the police shooting range so they don't have to kill suspects. It's really, really the last thing a police officer wants to do. And I know they receive extensive training on how to disarm a suspect. GZ did not have that advantage and that is another reason why he should have waited.

If TM were on top of GZ TM's leg would have been right there. That would have certainly put a stop to the wrestling because TM would have rolled off of him. I hate to say it but I think GZ knew exactly what he was doing and TM is not alive to give a conflicting story. IMO, GZ truly might have thought this was all going to blow over. jmo

Thanks LambChop. Apparently GZ did believe this would blow over because that's what Joe Oliver told ABC news in an interview.....

"Because he was there and he knows what happened...he's been very confident - naively - that this would all blow over," Oliver then continued saying Zimmerman is "just now realizing not just how big this is for him, but how big this is for the country."

(article here)
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-25/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-friend-20120325_1_abc-news-arizona-iced-tea-joe-oliver

(video here)
http://globalgrind.com/node/828929

(additional link to video)
Trayvon Martin Shooting: Joe Oliver Discusses His Friend George Zimmerman - YouTube

It's naive for Zimmerman to think that it was just going to blow over but I guess he thought his story was going to be so air tight that no one would dare second guess him. Guess things haven't worked out quite so well in this regard.




~jmo~

katydid23
04-07-2012, 02:18 PM
We have witness reports that on TWO known occasions, Zimmerman PICKED UP AND THREW a grown adult woman across the room. Assuming that a small to average adult woman would weigh at least 125 to 135 pounds or so....it is only pure logic to assume that the extra 15 pounds of Trayvon's weight would be of no consequence to Zimmerman in an altercation that he himself was prepared for and instigated by stalking the victim. If he twice before LIFTED AND THREW an adult woman, surely he could hold his own with a young boy!

jmo

I have only seen one report, from an unknown ex-coworker. It seemed to be an unverified anonymous report.[ a drunk lady who hurt her ankle] What is the other account that you are referring to?

raeann
04-07-2012, 02:26 PM
I have only seen one report, from an unknown ex-coworker. It seemed to be an unverified anonymous report.[ a drunk lady who hurt her ankle] What is the other account that you are referring to?

It's in the documents filed with the domestic violence stuff and the order of protection from his former girl friend.

The other report was not from the drunk lady, but from a co-worker of GZ who observed him assaulting the other woman. There were multiple witnesses to that, as it occurred at a party/event.....those others have not been heard from....at least not in the media.

LambChop
04-07-2012, 02:40 PM
I have only seen one report, from an unknown ex-coworker. It seemed to be an unverified anonymous report.[ a drunk lady who hurt her ankle] What is the other account that you are referring to?


I believe the article said he was fired because of the incident. So obviously someone at the party thought it was use of excessive force and turned him into his employer. jmo

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2122583/Trayvon-Martin-case-George-Zimmermans-Jekyll-Hyde-temper-cost-security-guard-job.html

lisalei321
04-07-2012, 02:41 PM
Could it be that they removed the info because Trayvon was a minor/child under the age of 18?

This has nagged at me for a while now and I am just going to toss it out to see what others think…

At the age of 17, Trayvon was still legally a child. Why didn’t LE arrested GZ on suspicion of Child Abuse once they realized Trayvon was unarmed and under age of 18?

This guy was arrested for hitting 17 year-old (his daughter)…
http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/region_s_palm_beach_county/boynton_beach/suburban-boynton-dad-charged-with-tackling-punching-daughter-17

Is there a possibility GZ be charged with Child Abuse?

JMHO~

This would be a twist...(and not a bad one)

JMO

Sent from LG Esteem using Tapatalk

ThoughtFox
04-07-2012, 02:45 PM
No. I think he was expressing a fear that Trayvon might come break into his home, which was the crime that the neighborhood was dealing with, that caused the formation of the Neighborhood Watch.


The problem is that Trayvon was not walking towards George Zimmerman's house. In fact, he was walking away from the vicinity of Zimmerman's house, hence his fear that the boy was "getting away" on the 911 tapes.

"Castle Doctrine" doesn't cover Zimmerman outside of his house or place of business. Please read the link in my signature.

RANCH
04-07-2012, 02:46 PM
This Orlando Sentinel article from March 21st has some details on the domestic violence petitions between GZ and his ex. Sounds like they both claim striking one another.


Newly available documents reveal conflicting accounts of a violent relationship in the past of George Zimmerman, the Sanford man who fatally shot 17-year-old Trayvon Martin last month.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-21/news/os-george-zimmerman-domestic-violence-20120321_1_petitions-documents-injunctions

Isabelle
04-07-2012, 02:55 PM
Sybrina Fulton has so much class!!!!!!!!! I could not be that way if it was my child who was Murdered..... IMHO JMHO and all that

It is truly amazing what shock and living in a fog can do for so many. Not anything I would wish for my worst enemy!

mfcmom
04-07-2012, 02:55 PM
My soul aches for her!

I'm going to keep hold of this article and repost it as necessary because this pretty much sums up what this family has wanted since day #1. Any parent would want the same.

Thanks for posting this!

That is one classy lady. < mod snip> It is a tragedy all the way around.
JMO

fran
04-07-2012, 02:57 PM
This Orlando Sentinel article from March 21st has some details on the domestic violence petitions between GZ and his ex. Sounds like they both claim striking one another.



http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-21/news/os-george-zimmerman-domestic-violence-20120321_1_petitions-documents-injunctions


So the judge found her complaint valid, but also his. Both were awarded injunctions.

It's a 'he said, she said' sort of thing. So no one really knows the true story.

Thanks for the link,
fran

Isabelle
04-07-2012, 02:59 PM
I really wish we had an autopsy report. I would like to know what injuries Trayvon had, besides the fatal gunshot wound, because everything that has come out from George's side has made it seem like George just sat back and allowed Trayvon to beat on him and 45 seconds later, he had snapped out of it and grabbed his gun?

MOO

I believe the autopsy will be the key to something big! Otherwise you'd thin it would have been released during the time GZ was free and there was not further need for investigation, until the SA took over. It's a curiosity!

katydid23
04-07-2012, 03:01 PM
It's in the documents filed with the domestic violence stuff and the order of protection from his former girl friend.

The other report was not from the drunk lady, but from a co-worker of GZ who observed him assaulting the other woman. There were multiple witnesses to that, as it occurred at a party/event.....those others have not been heard from....at least not in the media.


I looked through the info from the ex gf and I don't see anything about him 'throwing her across a room.'

The woman said she offered to drop the papers off the following day, but Zimmerman became upset, took her cellphone and shoved her. A fight ensued, she said, and her dog bit Zimmerman's cheek.

The ex-fiancée reported that Zimmerman had "open handed smacked" her in the mouth and berated her during an argument in January 2003.

In November 2002, Zimmerman claimed his ex had assaulted him with a baseball bat after he went to a concert without her.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-21/news/os-george-zimmerman-domestic-violence-20120321_1_petitions-documents-injunctions

It sounds like a troubled relationship on both sides, imo. But a shove and an open handed smack don't sound all that violent in comparison to what we are hearing about him.

As for the other 'story' about his being fired for assaulting a woman. I am not sure how accurate that is. Nobody else has come forward, including the woman. And why wouldn't she sue if he threw her across a room while he was on duty as a security guard? Why wasn't he arrested?

raeann
04-07-2012, 03:02 PM
So the judge found her complaint valid, but also his. Both were awarded injunctions.

It's a 'he said, she said' sort of thing. So no one really knows the true story.

Thanks for the link,
fran

YES!!!! so it seems he used the same "the other person attacked me and I was defending myself" excuse before to his own benefit.......hmmmm....perhaps she was lucky and he wasn't carrying his weapon at that time!


jmo

LambChop
04-07-2012, 03:03 PM
So the judge found her complaint valid, but also his. Both were awarded injunctions.

It's a 'he said, she said' sort of thing. So no one really knows the true story.

Thanks for the link,
fran

It seems to be a pattern with all these complaints of violence involving GZ. No one knows the true story because it appears he never was held accountable. His life appears to be just one big lumpy rug. jmo

frenchvixen
04-07-2012, 03:07 PM
It is much easier to shoot someone into the body mass than into the foot.
That's why policemen are trained to shoot into body mass. Why do you expect private citizen be able to shoot better than trained policemen?

That's my point exactly. Why did he shoot like a professional? Maybe in his delusional mind he thought he was one. There are many places that you can shoot in the 'body mass' and not kill someone.

RANCH
04-07-2012, 03:08 PM
YES!!!! so it seems he used the same "the other person attacked me and I was defending myself" excuse before to his own benefit.......hmmmm....perhaps she was lucky and he wasn't carrying his weapon at that time!


jmo

What I found interesting was GZ had injuries to his face and his ex blamed it on the dog. LOL.

The woman said she offered to drop the papers off the following day, but Zimmerman became upset, took her cellphone and shoved her. A fight ensued, she said, and her dog bit Zimmerman's cheek.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-21/news/os-george-zimmerman-domestic-violence-20120321_1_petitions-documents-injunctions

LambChop
04-07-2012, 03:08 PM
I looked through the info from the ex gf and I don't see anything about him 'throwing her across a room.'

The woman said she offered to drop the papers off the following day, but Zimmerman became upset, took her cellphone and shoved her. A fight ensued, she said, and her dog bit Zimmerman's cheek.

The ex-fiancée reported that Zimmerman had "open handed smacked" her in the mouth and berated her during an argument in January 2003.

In November 2002, Zimmerman claimed his ex had assaulted him with a baseball bat after he went to a concert without her.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-21/news/os-george-zimmerman-domestic-violence-20120321_1_petitions-documents-injunctions

It sounds like a troubled relationship on both sides, imo. But a shove and an open handed smack don't sound all that violent in comparison to what we are hearing about him.

As for the other 'story' about his being fired for assaulting a woman. I am not sure how accurate that is. Nobody else has come forward, including the woman. And why wouldn't she sue if he threw her across a room while he was on duty as a security guard? Why wasn't he arrested?

BBM: I wonder why he didn't shoot her? lol I think all we have to do is look at his past history and figure out whether or not we believe this story or just take it with a grain of salt. It is pretty easy for LE to check and we have never heard GZ's attorney deny this story is not true. jmo

raeann
04-07-2012, 03:13 PM
I looked through the info from the ex gf and I don't see anything about him 'throwing her across a room.'

The woman said she offered to drop the papers off the following day, but Zimmerman became upset, took her cellphone and shoved her. A fight ensued, she said, and her dog bit Zimmerman's cheek.

The ex-fiancée reported that Zimmerman had "open handed smacked" her in the mouth and berated her during an argument in January 2003.

In November 2002, Zimmerman claimed his ex had assaulted him with a baseball bat after he went to a concert without her.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-21/news/os-george-zimmerman-domestic-violence-20120321_1_petitions-documents-injunctions

It sounds like a troubled relationship on both sides, imo. But a shove and an open handed smack don't sound all that violent in comparison to what we are hearing about him.

As for the other 'story' about his being fired for assaulting a woman. I am not sure how accurate that is. Nobody else has come forward, including the woman. And why wouldn't she sue if he threw her across a room while he was on duty as a security guard? Why wasn't he arrested?


BBM


I think this is a false impression that BOTH sides of this issue are often operating under. Just because a person does not seek out or grant media interviews does not mean they have not "come forward". There are several types of "witnesses" :

1. Those who actually saw or know something and come forward to both LE and the media.

2. Those like Mr. Oliver, and Mr. Taffe who give media interviews in multiples, but who have absolutely NO KNOWLEDGE of the incident at all....in fact, both have stated they have not seen or spoken to GZ at all. Neither one was even in the area of the crime when it occurred, so they have no knowledge of the incident at all.

3. Then there are numerous witnesses who most willingly speak to LE and give them whatever information they may have observed or heard....but under no condition are willing to discuss that information with ANY media. At this point it is only logical to assume that there are quite a number of these kind of witnesses that we know NOTHING about yet.

......If I were a witness, I would definitely be in the third category.....I would NEVER speak to the media about any information that I had on a crime! I highly doubt that I am unique in that frame of mind.

jmo

Chris_Texas
04-07-2012, 03:29 PM
Jenna T, your comment about "shooting to kill" reminded me of a question that I wanted to ask a few days ago. Why did GZ shoot to kill. Only cops are trained to shoot to kill? I think there is something delusional about GZ by those actions. Did he have to kill TM? He could have shot him in the foot and gotten his attention. It would have definately quelled the fight and by that time the cops would have arrived. Why did he aim for the kill?

You cannot employ deadly force as a warning. The ONLY justified use is when there is no other alternative and the subject must be stopped immediately. Going into court saying you were aiming for a foot or whatever, is the same thing as admitting you never should have fired in the first place.

That's the legal stuff.

On a practical level it's impossible. Most guys have trouble hitting the toilet in the dark, from two feet away, while armed with their favorite 'weapon' -- hitting a moving target under stress with a firearm is something else altogether.

atthelake
04-07-2012, 03:34 PM
Doesn't mean he hasn't read the transcript or seen the video of the initial interview. Since the interview was with his client he would have legal access to it. Or gee maybe his client (you know the one that was interviewed) told him that.

jmo, imo and all that jazz

IMO (from the Bashara case thread learnings that Bob's atty can't see any evidence) unless the client has been CHARGED, his client does NOT have legal access to anything!

Donjeta
04-07-2012, 03:38 PM
Thanks LambChop. Apparently GZ did believe this would blow over because that's what Joe Oliver told ABC news in an interview.....

"Because he was there and he knows what happened...he's been very confident - naively - that this would all blow over," Oliver then continued saying Zimmerman is "just now realizing not just how big this is for him, but how big this is for the country."

(article here)
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-25/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-friend-20120325_1_abc-news-arizona-iced-tea-joe-oliver

(video here)
http://globalgrind.com/node/828929

(additional link to video)
Trayvon Martin Shooting: Joe Oliver Discusses His Friend George Zimmerman - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW5BQs6tCdA)

It's naive for Zimmerman to think that it was just going to blow over but I guess he thought his story was going to be so air tight that no one would dare second guess him. Guess things haven't worked out quite so well in this regard.




~jmo~


That chills me to the bone. Anybody who can shoot someone for walking in his neighborhood and looking wrong and think that it'll blow over...

Death will never blow over.

Just frightening. Cold to the core.

JBean
04-07-2012, 03:49 PM
So the judge found her complaint valid, but also his. Both were awarded injunctions.

It's a 'he said, she said' sort of thing. So no one really knows the true story.

Thanks for the link,
fran
Sounds like a potential pattern emerging-"guilty with an explanation"
In this case we don't have "he said -she said" we have "he said - he couldn't say anything"

JMHO of course.

katydid23
04-07-2012, 03:59 PM
It seems to be a pattern with all these complaints of violence involving GZ. No one knows the true story because it appears he never was held accountable. His life appears to be just one big lumpy rug. jmo

Growing up and working with my defense attorney dad taught me that when a defendant is made public, there can be all kinds of 'evidence' that comes out. And it is not always accurate as a way to gauge who the person really is. Maybe he is a violent, cold hearted monster. But so far, I am not convinced of that.

Just because ONE former co-worker tells a story about him being fired, it does not mean it went down that way exactly.
And if he really did THROW a drunk woman cross the room, then imo, he would have been arrested and or sued by someone.

The same with the RO's from the ex girlfriend. It looks to me like it was a two way volatile relationship. I don't automatically assume that he was the violent one and she was the totally innocent victim. I saw a lot of cases like this when my dad defended clients. It is quite often a two way street.

Not always, but if it is a very violent abusive husband then you often end up with women going for medical treatment and the men being arrested. We have no evidence of that here. I think they both drank and were both immature and jealous.

I BELIEVE HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ARRESTED FOR MANSLAUGHTER ON THE FIRST NIGHT. But I also believe that he is being unfairly painted as a violent, cold blooded, premeditated killer. And so I am responding in defense of him in that way only.

francie
04-07-2012, 04:00 PM
“George Hall, a retired Presbyterian minister, said he was Zimmerman's neighbor for 20 years in Manassas, Va., until about 2001. Hall said Zimmerman and his brother attended church, and he wrote a recommendation for Zimmerman for a police academy in 2004.”

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_NEIGHBORHOOD_WATCH_ZIMMERMANS_SUPPORT?SITE=MOSP L&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

I wonder if George was accepted/rejected, dropped out/graduated and if he graduated why didn’t he work for police dept? Hmm. jmo.

frenchvixen
04-07-2012, 04:04 PM
That chills me to the bone. Anybody who can shoot someone for walking in his neighborhood and looking wrong and think that it'll blow over...

Death will never blow over.

Just frightening. Cold to the core.

Umm.. I have been saying this since the beginning. This man's demeanor at the police station 30 min after shooting TM was too calm. It is so frightening. I remember hitting a deer while driving about two years ago. I talked about it for months and wondered if the poor thing lived or died. Everytime I drive in that part of Pennsylvania I think of the poor deer :-(

This man snuffed the life out of someone else and even if it was in so-called self defense I would have been hospitalized. HE THOUGH IT WOULD BLOW OVER. Is that so? TM's parents' world is forever darkened b/c of you. That does not blow over.

lisalei321
04-07-2012, 04:06 PM
What I found interesting was GZ had injuries to his face and his ex blamed it on the dog. LOL.


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-21/news/os-george-zimmerman-domestic-violence-20120321_1_petitions-documents-injunctions

How did he get a gun with a prior injunction?

Seems like that would have raised a flag on his carry permit.

Per article quoted above.

Sent from LG Esteem using Tapatalk

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 04:10 PM
I looked through the info from the ex gf and I don't see anything about him 'throwing her across a room.'

The woman said she offered to drop the papers off the following day, but Zimmerman became upset, took her cellphone and shoved her. A fight ensued, she said, and her dog bit Zimmerman's cheek.

The ex-fiancée reported that Zimmerman had "open handed smacked" her in the mouth and berated her during an argument in January 2003.

In November 2002, Zimmerman claimed his ex had assaulted him with a baseball bat after he went to a concert without her.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-21/news/os-george-zimmerman-domestic-violence-20120321_1_petitions-documents-injunctions

It sounds like a troubled relationship on both sides, imo. But a shove and an open handed smack don't sound all that violent in comparison to what we are hearing about him.

As for the other 'story' about his being fired for assaulting a woman. I am not sure how accurate that is. Nobody else has come forward, including the woman. And why wouldn't she sue if he threw her across a room while he was on duty as a security guard? Why wasn't he arrested?

BBM I respectfully, and strongly disagree. Any man that would put his hands on a woman, is no man at all!

As for the whole incident with the party... it was an "illegal" party which is usually when strippers come to the house/hotel to do nude performances. Of course the girl wasn't going to press charges and the other people at the party weren't going to call the cops because then they would all be busted.

MOO

katydid23
04-07-2012, 04:11 PM
“George Hall, a retired Presbyterian minister, said he was Zimmerman's neighbor for 20 years in Manassas, Va., until about 2001. Hall said Zimmerman and his brother attended church, and he wrote a recommendation for Zimmerman for a police academy in 2004.”

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_NEIGHBORHOOD_WATCH_ZIMMERMANS_SUPPORT?SITE=MOSP L&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

I wonder if George was accepted/rejected, dropped out/graduated and if he graduated why didn’t he work for police dept? Hmm. jmo.

He was NEVER going to get into the academy, imo. He was arrested for an assault on an undercover cop. He will never get past that. My son applied to the academy, is hoping to be accepted, but they wanted to wait for his speeding tickets from when he was 17 to go away. SPEEDING TICKETS. That is it. He has nothing else, never ever in any trouble. And they said the 2 speeding tickets need to be further in his past. LOL

vlpate
04-07-2012, 04:12 PM
What I found interesting was GZ had injuries to his face and his ex blamed it on the dog. LOL.


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-21/news/os-george-zimmerman-domestic-violence-20120321_1_petitions-documents-injunctions

Great Dane? :what:

RANCH
04-07-2012, 04:13 PM
How did he get a gun with a prior injunction?

Seems like that would have raised a flag on his carry permit.

Per article quoted above.

Sent from LG Esteem using Tapatalk
I'm not sure. Do those domestic violence injunctions have an expiration date?

Omori
04-07-2012, 04:20 PM
Zimmerman is guilty--period. We don't need to look at past histories or charges of racism--it's all irrelevant. The boy was walking home from the store talking to his girlfriend on his cell phone. That much has been verified. Ergo, he should not be dead. There can be no justification for it. The only way it could haver happened is that Zimmerman confronted the individual. Whether Martin attacked him first is irrelevant. So what if he did? Zimmerman confronted him--there is NO OTHER WAY it could have happened. He is therefore guilty. It's really that simple.

vlpate
04-07-2012, 04:22 PM
He was NEVER going to get into the academy, imo. He was arrested for an assault on an undercover cop. He will never get past that. My son applied to the academy, is hoping to be accepted, but they wanted to wait for his speeding tickets from when he was 17 to go away. SPEEDING TICKETS. That is it. He has nothing else, never ever in any trouble. And they said the 2 speeding tickets need to be further in his past. LOL

The charges against GZ were dropped, there's no conviction, just the arrest.

People are arrested all the time who are found not guilty, charges are dropped, record expunged....etc., Convictions, not arrests count against a person in almost all situations. "Arrest" doesn't equate to "guilty".

I do agree that there is a reason GZ wasn't in the Police Academy. He has done everything BUT enter. I don't know about the psych evaluation angle - I know a lot of crazzzzy cops with anger issues. There's a reason, just can't figure out what it could be.

Desdemona
04-07-2012, 04:24 PM
He was NEVER going to get into the academy, imo. He was arrested for an assault on an undercover cop. He will never get past that. My son applied to the academy, is hoping to be accepted, but they wanted to wait for his speeding tickets from when he was 17 to go away. SPEEDING TICKETS. That is it. He has nothing else, never ever in any trouble. And they said the 2 speeding tickets need to be further in his past. LOLQuestion: Was it THE police academy, where you train to become a LEO, or was it the Citizens' Police Academy where you learn about how to appreciate and work with LE and go on ride-alongs to gain perspective on how LE work in your community?

Do we know whether GZ applied to the actual Police Academy to become a LEO? --

-- Or did he apply for this or something like it?
http://www.seminolesheriff.org/external/InfoSitePage.aspx?pageID=166

TIA

vlpate
04-07-2012, 04:30 PM
Zimmerman is guilty--period. We don't need to look at past histories or charges of racism--it's all irrelevant. The boy was walking home from the store talking to his girlfriend on his cell phone. That much has been verified. Ergo, he should not be dead. There can be no justification for it. The only way it could haver happened is that Zimmerman confronted the individual. Whether Martin attacked him first is irrelevant. So what if he did? Zimmerman confronted him--there is NO OTHER WAY it could have happened. He is therefore guilty. It's really that simple.

I have a question for you that LE had to ask themselves when investigating this case, and the answer they came up with factored into their decision not to arrest GZ. I would imagine the new investigation is looking at the same question. Given the fact that TM took off running, and had a two minute head start on GZ - why do you think TM didn't go home in those two minutes? People only run for two reasons - they are scared of someone, or they are up to no good and think they've been busted.

This is not me taking a side, this is me trying to sleuth the case the way the investigators do - by looking at the facts and leaving emotion out of it. I am sincerely interested in your point of view on this. TIA!

RANCH
04-07-2012, 04:34 PM
Question: Was it THE police academy, where you train to become a LEO, or was it the Citizens' Police Academy where you learn about how to appreciate and work with LE and go on ride-alongs to gain perspective on how LE work in your community?

Do we know whether GZ applied to the actual Police Academy to become a LEO? --

-- Or did he apply for this or something like it?
http://www.seminolesheriff.org/external/InfoSitePage.aspx?pageID=166

TIA
Here's a link to a letter saying GZ was accepted to the "Citizen Law Enforcement Academy".

http://www.scribd.com/heidi_vries/d/87064208-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-application-for-the-Citizens-Police-Academy-in-2008

deelytful1
04-07-2012, 04:40 PM
“George Hall, a retired Presbyterian minister, said he was Zimmerman's neighbor for 20 years in Manassas, Va., until about 2001. Hall said Zimmerman and his brother attended church, and he wrote a recommendation for Zimmerman for a police academy in 2004.”

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_NEIGHBORHOOD_WATCH_ZIMMERMANS_SUPPORT?SITE=MOSP L&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

I wonder if George was accepted/rejected, dropped out/graduated and if he graduated why didn’t he work for police dept? Hmm. jmo.

This might answer your question...

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/23/2712299_p2/george-zimmerman-self-appointed.html


A few years back, he came by and asked George Hall, Kay’s husband, to write a letter of recommendation so that he could apply to a police agency. Hall gladly obliged.

Whether Zimmerman ever actually applied to a police agency is unclear. But according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, he never applied to take the Basic Abilities Test needed to enter recruit training.

Desdemona
04-07-2012, 04:41 PM
Zimmerman is guilty--period. We don't need to look at past histories or charges of racism--it's all irrelevant. The boy was walking home from the store talking to his girlfriend on his cell phone. That much has been verified. Ergo, he should not be dead. There can be no justification for it. The only way it could haver happened is that Zimmerman confronted the individual. Whether Martin attacked him first is irrelevant. So what if he did? Zimmerman confronted him--there is NO OTHER WAY it could have happened. He is therefore guilty. It's really that simple.(BBM)

It appears that who confronted whom first may indeed be relevant according to the law. Exactly what took place in the ensuing physical fight will most likely also be highly relevant -- again, according to the law. The determination of the facts of what happened -- much of which is missing at this time for us, the public -- will definitely drive the outcome of this case... all of which remains to be seen. IMO

Totally agree that TM should not be dead. What a tragedy and what a sordid end for a hopeful young life. I feel terrible for him, his family and friends, and everyone else whose lives have been shattered by the incident, including GZ and his family, the witnesses, the neighbors, etc. It simply should not have happened.

I also strongly believe that the hype, rhetoric, threats, hysteria, opportunism, fomenting of racial divisiveness, shameless media free-for-all, and the public hatefest, does nothing to honor TM's life or memory. That should not have happened, either, IMO.

What a shame it all is. :cry:

LambChop
04-07-2012, 04:47 PM
I have a question for you that LE had to ask themselves when investigating this case, and the answer they came up with factored into their decision not to arrest GZ. I would imagine the new investigation is looking at the same question. Given the fact that TM took off running, and had a two minute head start on GZ - why do you think TM didn't go home in those two minutes? People only run for two reasons - they are scared of someone, or they are up to no good and think they've been busted.

This is not me taking a side, this is me trying to sleuth the case the way the investigators do - by looking at the facts and leaving emotion out of it. I am sincerely interested in your point of view on this. TIA!

Investigators have to use what they know as fact and not what GZ claims, including the running. It's up to them to be objective when investigating and not try to build a case favorable to GZ. If they are still investigating there is a reason they suspect GZ was not telling the truth. We know the homocide detective wanted to press charges. There is a homocide charge on the reports but SA overroad LE and said there was not enough evidence to convict GZ because he claimed he was innocent by way of the SYG law and they could proceed no further. SA made that decision not LE.

TM's body was further down the sidewalk then we originally thought. He was closer to home and a distance from the cut through sidewalk where GZ claims to have been attacked by TM. If GZ walked down Twin Tree towards the back gate (and where TM was going on his way home) GZ could have cut TM off at the break in the houses forcing TM back towards the cut through and to where his body was found. Only someone who is an expert will be able to explain what possibly happened. jmo

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 04:47 PM
I respect everyone's rights to own/carry a gun... if they are stable and responsible people. I don't understand why gun owners are even backing George Zimmerman? This case has nothing to do with Zimmerman owning/carrying a gun? It has everything to do with him following, confronting, and shooting an unarmed kid. It has nothing to do with Zimmerman's right to own/carry a gun... it is how he irresponsibly used it and an innocent person is dead.

MOO

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 04:52 PM
I looked through the info from the ex gf and I don't see anything about him 'throwing her across a room.'

The woman said she offered to drop the papers off the following day, but Zimmerman became upset, took her cellphone and shoved her. A fight ensued, she said, and her dog bit Zimmerman's cheek.

The ex-fiancée reported that Zimmerman had "open handed smacked" her in the mouth and berated her during an argument in January 2003.

In November 2002, Zimmerman claimed his ex had assaulted him with a baseball bat after he went to a concert without her.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-21/news/os-george-zimmerman-domestic-violence-20120321_1_petitions-documents-injunctions

It sounds like a troubled relationship on both sides, imo. But a shove and an open handed smack don't sound all that violent in comparison to what we are hearing about him.

As for the other 'story' about his being fired for assaulting a woman. I am not sure how accurate that is. Nobody else has come forward, including the woman. And why wouldn't she sue if he threw her across a room while he was on duty as a security guard? Why wasn't he arrested?

His ex-fiance hasn't come forward either so are we to believe that just because she hasn't come forward that it isn't true?



~jmo~

Elley Mae
04-07-2012, 04:53 PM
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/23/2712299_p2/george-zimmerman-self-appointed.html

According to the report, agents with Florida’s Alcohol Beverage and Tobacco division were arresting several employees near the University of Central Florida.

I wonder if the agent was in plain (street) clothes.

Desdemona
04-07-2012, 04:55 PM
Here's a link to a letter saying GZ was accepted to the "Citizen Law Enforcement Academy".

http://www.scribd.com/heidi_vries/d/87064208-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-application-for-the-Citizens-Police-Academy-in-2008Thank you! That is a very informative and interesting document, which I had not seen. It's a 2008 email from the SCSO, replying to GZ's emailed application and explanation in his own words about the assault charge that was dropped and why. As RANCH says, it is the notification to GZ that he's been accepted for the program.

BTW, from the SCSO website, the qualifications for the Citizens Academy:

To be eligible, you must

• Live or work in Seminole or surrounding counties
• Be at least 19 years of age
• Possess a valid driver's license or other form of government issued photographic identification
• Not have been convicted of a Crime
• Disclose any arrests or convictions, including misdemeanors, to include pleas of nolo contendre regardless of whether adjudication was withheld
• File an application with the Sheriff's Office

http://www.seminolesheriff.org/external/InfoSitePage.aspx?pageID=166

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 04:56 PM
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/23/2712299_p2/george-zimmerman-self-appointed.html

According to the report, agents with Florida’s Alcohol Beverage and Tobacco division were arresting several employees near the University of Central Florida.

I wonder if the agent was in plain (street) clothes.

From what I recall, the officer was in plain clothes but just because he was in plain clothes doesn't make him any less of a law enforcement agent.


~jmo~

Elley Mae
04-07-2012, 04:57 PM
From what I recall, the officer was in plain clothes but just because he was in plain clothes doesn't make him any less of a law enforcement agent.


~jmo~

No it doesn't, but had he been in uniform chances are he would not have pushed him. jmo

LambChop
04-07-2012, 05:00 PM
The charges against GZ were dropped, there's no conviction, just the arrest.

People are arrested all the time who are found not guilty, charges are dropped, record expunged....etc., Convictions, not arrests count against a person in almost all situations. "Arrest" doesn't equate to "guilty".

I do agree that there is a reason GZ wasn't in the Police Academy. He has done everything BUT enter. I don't know about the psych evaluation angle - I know a lot of crazzzzy cops with anger issues. There's a reason, just can't figure out what it could be.

LE does FBI background checks. Unless those records were sealed they would come right back up, conviction or not. Certain records even if sealed can come up for LE and the court if the person gets into trouble. Maybe there was a promise made if he stayed out of trouble for so many years his records could be permanently sealed. This was not done because obviously the police department still could see his records. GZ, however, believed he would be able to apply in the future because he discussed his plans to do so and was in school for Criminal Justice. jmo

angelmom
04-07-2012, 05:04 PM
I respect everyone's rights to own/carry a gun... if they are stable and responsible people. I don't understand why gun owners are even backing George Zimmerman? This case has nothing to do with Zimmerman owning/carrying a gun? It has everything to do with him following, confronting, and shooting an unarmed kid. It has nothing to do with Zimmerman's right to own/carry a gun... it is how he irresponsibly used it and an innocent person is dead.

MOO

I don't know how many are actually supportive of him vs. supportive of the SYG law. The conservative talk radio host in my town has been very hard on George and is actually pretty POed that GZ is being held up as an example of why SYG is a bad thing. He thinks it is a good law that does not apply at all in this case, because GZ was not standing his ground - he went looking for trouble. Standing his ground would have been staying in or near his car after the dispatcher told him "we don't need you to do that."

LambChop
04-07-2012, 05:04 PM
No it doesn't, but had he been in uniform chances are he would not have pushed him. jmo

FBI, ATF wear their badges when in plain clothes. It's either hanging around their neck or in an insert in their shirt/suit pocket. Plus they identify themselves right away, same as LE does. jmo

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 05:07 PM
FBI, ATF wear their badges when in plain clothes. It's either hanging around their neck or in an insert in their shirt/suit pocket. Plus they identify themselves right away, same as LE does. jmo

According to the link, the officer didn't identify himself to Zimmerman and he assaulted him first so Zimmerman was forced to defend himself.

http://www.scribd.com/heidi_vries/d/87064208-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-application-for-the-Citizens-Police-Academy-in-2008


~jmo~

Concerned Papa
04-07-2012, 05:10 PM
IF George Zimmerman's claims of justification for firing the shot that killed Trayvon Martin had even the barest of truth to them, he could end this cauldron of emotion at any time by simply showing some type of reasonable proof for his illogical claims. It's completely illogical for me to believe, at first glance, that a skinny 17 year old kid could beat an ex bouncer to the point he thought he was going to die.

Don't keep making a very bad situation worse. Don't keep sending a relative to appear on a nationally broadcast interview with a story of events that's preposterous for any rational analysis. Instead, if his story is true, show the world a dated doctor's report with x rays of a broken nose!

Instead of having attorney's show up, on all the media outlets feeding off this frenzy, with their newest wrinkle of a "Shaken Baby Syndrome" tale, put the doctor on that surely examined the head that we've been told ad nauseam was bashed on a sidewalk!

Instead of grainy videos OR "enhanced" videos, show us something we can see and believe like 8x10 glossy's taken before and/or after the stitches were put in.

Heck, at this point I'd settle for an inadmissible polygraph test!

The longer this goes with nothing but words thrown about, the more I have to be convinced shows his bank of proof is completely bankrupt.

JHMO, MOO, IMO, etc.

katydid23
04-07-2012, 05:10 PM
Question: Was it THE police academy, where you train to become a LEO, or was it the Citizens' Police Academy where you learn about how to appreciate and work with LE and go on ride-alongs to gain perspective on how LE work in your community?

Do we know whether GZ applied to the actual Police Academy to become a LEO? --

-- Or did he apply for this or something like it?
http://www.seminolesheriff.org/external/InfoSitePage.aspx?pageID=166

TIA

I am not sure. I assumed it was the police academy. But he has no chance of being accepted into that. I would assume that he would know that though.

Even before they accept your application they do a quick interview, at least in Ventura County they do. And they asked my son lots of questions and gave him a realistic assessment. They said 'thumbs up', except for your age. Stay in college and get back to us, we will keep you on file. But his friend was told, no way, don't bother, because he had a few incidents involving underage drinking and fighting.

angelmom
04-07-2012, 05:10 PM
From what I recall, the officer was in plain clothes but just because he was in plain clothes doesn't make him any less of a law enforcement agent.


~jmo~


No it doesn't, but had he been in uniform chances are he would not have pushed him. jmo



If he was talking with a friend who was being arrested, I think he probably knew the man arresting the friend was LE.

I also like how GZ accuses the agent of lying when he is applying for the Citizens Academy. That always goes over well with cops, right? < mod snip > :rolleyes:



Agent Paul Fleishman wrote that Zimmerman walked up to a pal under arrest and began chatting, refusing to leave. Zimmerman cursed him, Fleishman wrote, before pushing him and causing a “short struggle.”

The charge was later dropped when Zimmerman entered a “pre-trial diversion” program, which is not unusual for first-time offenders. The program usually entails paying fines and taking classes for anger management.

Zimmerman — in applying to enter the citizens’ police academy — later disputed the official version of the event, insisting that the agent never identified himself. “I hold law enforcement officers in the highest regaurd [sic] as I hope to one day become. I would never have touched a police officer,” Zimmerman wrote.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/23/2712299_p2/george-zimmerman-self-appointed.html#storylink=cpy

***Also, note that the application to the Citizens Academy wasn't until 2008. I think the letter of recommendation he requested in 2004 was for the REAL police academy and something happened to make him realize he would not be accepted. Sometimes a denial looks worse than never applying.

jjenny
04-07-2012, 05:14 PM
If he was talking with a friend who was being arrested, I think he probably knew the man arresting the friend was LE.

I also like how GZ accuses the agent of lying when he is applying for the Citizens Academy. That always goes over well with cops, right? And that he can't be bothered to spell check his application. :rolleyes:




***Also, note that the application to the Citizens Academy wasn't until 2008. I think the letter of recommendation he requested in 2004 was for the REAL police academy and something happened to make him realize he would not be accepted. Sometimes a denial looks worse than never applying.

I don't think he was going to get into police academy with an arrest for battery on a police officer (whether he knew the person was a police officer or not).

jjenny
04-07-2012, 05:15 PM
I don't know how many are actually supportive of him vs. supportive of the SYG law. The conservative talk radio host in my town has been very hard on George and is actually pretty POed that GZ is being held up as an example of why SYG is a bad thing. He thinks it is a good law that does not apply at all in this case, because GZ was not standing his ground - he went looking for trouble. Standing his ground would have been staying in or near his car after the dispatcher told him "we don't need you to do that."

This law allows Zimmerman to stand his ground anywhere he can legally be.

HiHater
04-07-2012, 05:16 PM
No it doesn't, but had he been in uniform chances are he would not have pushed him. jmo

George Zimmerman shouldn't have been pushing anyone.

JMO MOO IMO

Desdemona
04-07-2012, 05:18 PM
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/23/2712299_p2/george-zimmerman-self-appointed.html

According to the report, agents with Florida’s Alcohol Beverage and Tobacco division were arresting several employees near the University of Central Florida.

I wonder if the agent was in plain (street) clothes.
(BBM)

Yes, for a sting operation the officers do wear street clothes. They are undercover, mingling in the club or bar, and working with minors who attempt to purchase alcohol. If the server or bartender serves the minor, the server is arrested or cited.

Here is a news story on these types of stings in OKLAHOMA (not Florida -- just an example).


---
The first stop In the operation was The Colony Bar at 28th and South Harvard.

A state agent wearing plain clothes heads in first, then the two girls.

<snip>

Next door, they're seated outside at Senior Tequilas and one of them orders a drink.

"I ordered a margarita on the rocks and she took my id, and she looked at it for quite a while and she was just 'oh ok' and just handed it back. She brought me out my drink," one of the teenagers told 2NEWS.

Agent Smoot said the waitress is in trouble for more than selling alcohol to a minor.

Read more: http://www.kjrh.com/dpp/news/local_news/teens-buy-alcohol-in-undercover-operation#ixzz1rOKoQ800

HTH

vlpate
04-07-2012, 05:18 PM
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/23/2712299_p2/george-zimmerman-self-appointed.html

According to the report, agents with Florida’s Alcohol Beverage and Tobacco division were arresting several employees near the University of Central Florida.

I wonder if the agent was in plain (street) clothes.

I've read under cover - they don't wear a badge anywhere that can be seen - otherwise, what would be the point?

angelmom
04-07-2012, 05:19 PM
According to the link, the officer didn't identify himself to Zimmerman and he assaulted him first so Zimmerman was forced to defend himself.

http://www.scribd.com/heidi_vries/d/87064208-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-application-for-the-Citizens-Police-Academy-in-2008


~jmo~

Second verse same as the first. Sounds awfully familiar.

Elley Mae
04-07-2012, 05:20 PM
I've read under cover - they don't wear a badge anywhere that can be seen - otherwise, what would be the point?

exactly!

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 05:20 PM
Second verse same as the first. Sounds awfully familiar.

Yes it does, it's always an excuse for him. There seems to be quite a pattern there.



~jmo~

deelytful1
04-07-2012, 05:20 PM
I am not sure. I assumed it was the police academy. But he has no chance of being accepted into that. I would assume that he would know that though.

Even before they accept your application they do a quick interview, at least in Ventura County they do. And they asked my son lots of questions and gave him a realistic assessment. They said 'thumbs up', except for your age. Stay in college and get back to us, we will keep you on file. But his friend was told, no way, don't bother, because he had a few incidents involving underage drinking and fighting.

You keep insisting he "knew" he would not get into the PD.. can you back up the PD requirements with a link and not just what you personally feel?
I know people that have been arrested and worked things out so that they could get into the police force...
How do we know he didn't get onto the force (his ultimate dream according to his own admission) because he failed the PSYCHOLOGICAL?????? I mean if you're going to assume.. i can do the same thing....
I would think he couldn't make it into LE because he failed the psychological...

katydid23
04-07-2012, 05:21 PM
His ex-fiance hasn't come forward either so are we to believe that just because she hasn't come forward that it isn't true?



~jmo~

I never said it wasn't 'true'--just that it seems to be a two way volatile relationship. And if she did attack him with a baseball bat, then maybe she wants to lay low and let the past be.

All I am saying is that people were putting his past RO and his supposed firing out there as PROOF he is a violent cold blooded guy.

And I am saying that when looking closer, these incidents seem like he is immature and hot headed, but not a violent monster. He was 20, drinking in a club, and a plain clothes guy starts hassling his friend, so he shoves the guy. Sounds like something many of my friends and relatives did back in the day.

I had a volatile relationship when I was in my 20's/ Neither of us ever went to the hospital or got arrested, but we were out of control when we drank. Many broken dishes and belongings thrown out windows and at each other.

Bottom line for me is that IF I was arrested for something now, and I was sleuthed, would I have people from my long past talking about me being fired before? Yes. Not proud of it. I got into a catfight with another cocktail waitress one night over a boyfriend. If SHE told the story to the press then I would sound like a maniac.

I acted out a lot because of the childhood abuse factor. I would hate to be judged for that now that I am 60 and have lived a pretty positive life since then.

LambChop
04-07-2012, 05:21 PM
Growing up and working with my defense attorney dad taught me that when a defendant is made public, there can be all kinds of 'evidence' that comes out. And it is not always accurate as a way to gauge who the person really is. Maybe he is a violent, cold hearted monster. But so far, I am not convinced of that.

Just because ONE former co-worker tells a story about him being fired, it does not mean it went down that way exactly.
And if he really did THROW a drunk woman cross the room, then imo, he would have been arrested and or sued by someone.

The same with the RO's from the ex girlfriend. It looks to me like it was a two way volatile relationship. I don't automatically assume that he was the violent one and she was the totally innocent victim. I saw a lot of cases like this when my dad defended clients. It is quite often a two way street.

Not always, but if it is a very violent abusive husband then you often end up with women going for medical treatment and the men being arrested. We have no evidence of that here. I think they both drank and were both immature and jealous.

I BELIEVE HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ARRESTED FOR MANSLAUGHTER ON THE FIRST NIGHT. But I also believe that he is being unfairly painted as a violent, cold blooded, premeditated killer. And so I am responding in defense of him in that way only.

GZ was working an illegal party. If this lady was a "hostess" I doubt she wanted LE investigating. This man claims GZ was fired over this. It is very easy for LE to check and I'm sure they will.

It is never, ever right for a man to hit a woman. If the relationship was bad and because he had been in trouble before he should have ended it instead of having domestic charges brought against him. And weren't there more than one???? He was either part of the problem or part of the solution and since he stayed with her, he was obviously part of the problem, IMO, because they were not married. Nothing holding him there.

I, too, think he should have been charged with manslaughter and you can be your sweet bippie he wishes now he had been, too. He may have been able to get away with charges of involuntary manslaughter......now they will want more. jmo

angelmom
04-07-2012, 05:22 PM
I've read under cover - they don't wear a badge anywhere that can be seen - otherwise, what would be the point?

I'm sure they went in undercover at first. My cousin used to do these stings when he was underage with his BIL who was a town cop. But when they go to arrest the people, they are required to identify themselves.

Regardless, once the person was under arrest, GZ would have to be blind and deaf not to realize that the officer was LE. Otherwise, did he think his friend was being kidnapped? The officer asked him to move along, GZ refused to follow those instructions (hmmm...where have we heard that before?), swore at the officer, and then pushed him.

katydid23
04-07-2012, 05:26 PM
The charges against GZ were dropped, there's no conviction, just the arrest.

People are arrested all the time who are found not guilty, charges are dropped, record expunged....etc., Convictions, not arrests count against a person in almost all situations. "Arrest" doesn't equate to "guilty".

I do agree that there is a reason GZ wasn't in the Police Academy. He has done everything BUT enter. I don't know about the psych evaluation angle - I know a lot of crazzzzy cops with anger issues. There's a reason, just can't figure out what it could be.

But the investigator doing the backgrounds checks can see even 'expunged' records. And they would not accept that incident in his past, imo.

They interview ALL of your past bosses and landlords and spouses and friends before they accept you into the academy.

vlpate
04-07-2012, 05:31 PM
His ex-fiance hasn't come forward either so are we to believe that just because she hasn't come forward that it isn't true?



~jmo~

She filed for a restraining order, as did he against her. There's no restraining order filed in the case of the flying woman in the bar.

LambChop
04-07-2012, 05:32 PM
I never said it wasn't 'true'--just that it seems to be a two way volatile relationship. And if she did attack him with a baseball bat, then maybe she wants to lay low and let the past be.

All I am saying is that people were putting his past RO and his supposed firing out there as PROOF he is a violent cold blooded guy.

And I am saying that when looking closer, these incidents seem like he is immature and hot headed, but not a violent monster. He was 20, drinking in a club, and a plain clothes guy starts hassling his friend, so he shoves the guy. Sounds like something many of my friends and relatives did back in the day.

I had a volatile relationship when I was in my 20's/ Neither of us ever went to the hospital or got arrested, but we were out of control when we drank. Many broken dishes and belongings thrown out windows and at each other.

Bottom line for me is that IF I was arrested for something now, and I was sleuthed, would I have people from my long past talking about me being fired before? Yes. Not proud of it. I got into a catfight with another cocktail waitress one night over a boyfriend. If SHE told the story to the press then I would sound like as maniac.

LOL. Things happen and maybe that is how the cocktail waitress saw it. We never think we've done anything wrong in a confrontation and that goes for both sides. But your past does come back to haunt you and today it's even worse. Everything shows up on the internet so you can't ever escape anything you've done that becomes news.

GZ's past violent behavior is relevant here because, as the co-worker said, he appears to be the nicest guy but he has some anger management issues. He attended classes for that and still seems to have a problem because he got into a fight. I cannot believe GZ ever turned his back on TM. Did not happen. TM was HIS suspect, he wanted to detain him or he would not have gone after TM. GZ wanted to keep TM from getting away. TM was not headed toward GZ he was headed home. Had GZ stayed with his car as he was asked to do this never would have happened because TM would have gotten home safely. jmo

angelmom
04-07-2012, 05:34 PM
Hmmm...


having an injunction for domestic violence, or being convicted of domestic violence is almost always a DQ.

en.allexperts.com/q/Careers-Police-1531/2009/6/LEO-JOB-ARREST-RECORD.htm

vlpate
04-07-2012, 05:34 PM
But the investigator doing the backgrounds checks can see even 'expunged' records. And they would not accept that incident in his past, imo.

They interview ALL of your past bosses and landlords and spouses and friends before they accept you into the academy.
His wasn't expunged, it was just an example of charges/arrests that wouldn't be on a person's record in most instances. I wouldn't think a felony charge for assaulting an officer, or really anyone, could be expunged in three years (another example). JMO

Emeralgem
04-07-2012, 05:35 PM
Yes it does, it's always an excuse for him. There seems to be quite a pattern there.



~jmo~

Ya think? Just unbelievable ALL the excuses..JMHO

jjenny
04-07-2012, 05:35 PM
His wasn't expunged, it was just an example of charges/arrests that wouldn't be on a person's record in most instances. I wouldn't think a felony charge for assaulting an officer, or really anyone, could be expunged in three years (another example). JMO

He would still have to put the fact that he was arrested on his application. And when you have a bunch of people applying to police academy with no arrests, why would they accept someone with a mark on a reputation?

katydid23
04-07-2012, 05:38 PM
You keep insisting he "knew" he would not get into the PD.. can you back up the PD requirements with a link and not just what you personally feel?
I know people that have been arrested and worked things out so that they could get into the police force...
How do we know he didn't get onto the force (his ultimate dream according to his own admission) because he failed the PSYCHOLOGICAL?????? I mean if you're going to assume.. i can do the same thing....
I would think he couldn't make it into LE because he failed the psychological...

I don't know of any police force that will allow someone who was arrested and convicted to enter the academy. I am not sure what you mean by ' worked things out' so they could enter the academy.

I only know about the LAPD and the Ventura County sheriffs because that is where my son has applied. I looked very closely at their requirements when he was working on his 'packet.'

I know he would not have failed the 'psychological' exam because they do not give anyone that exam until they have already passed all of the earlier hurdles. They have to pass the Background Investigation FIRST which is very thorough. They will not accept someone who was arrested for shoving an undercover cop or for having a Restraining Order for a DV history. Nor from someone fired from a security job for assaulting a woman. If all of those things are TRUE, then he has ZERO chance of working things out and being accepted into the academy. The psych exam is at the end of the hoops they run you through.

vlpate
04-07-2012, 05:42 PM
Hmmm...

en.allexperts.com/q/Careers-Police-1531/2009/6/LEO-JOB-ARREST-RECORD.htm

BEM: It’s against the law in most states for anyone convicted of Domestic violence to buy/ carry a firearm, and that includes police.

"Florida Requirements: Not have been convicted of any felony or of a misdemeanor involving perjury or a false statement, or have received a dishonorable discharge from any of the Armed Forces of the United States. Any person who, after July 1, 1981, pleads guilty or nolo contendere to or is found guilty of any felony or of a misdemeanor involving perjury or a false statement is not eligible for employment or appointment as an officer, notwithstanding suspension of sentence or withholding of adjudication. Notwithstanding this subsection, any person who has pled nolo contendere to a misdemeanor involving a false statement, prior to December 1, 1985, and has had such record sealed or expunged shall not be deemed ineligible for employment or appointment as an officer.

Also having an injunction for domestic violence, or being convicted of domestic violence is almost always a DQ. Being arrested for it is not always one, but most of the time it will be."

That last sentence is puzzling - it's worse to have an injunction than to be convicted? Strange - I will have to go back and look at the record information. I guess I don't understand what a restraining order is."

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Careers-Police-1531/2009/6/LEO-JOB-ARREST-RECORD.htm

deelytful1
04-07-2012, 05:43 PM
I don't know of any police force that will allow someone who was arrested and convicted to enter the academy. I am not sure what you mean by ' worked things out' so they could enter the academy.

I only know about the LAPD and the Ventura County sheriffs because that is where my son has applied. I looked very closely at their requirements when he was working on his 'packet.'

I know he would not have failed the 'psychological' exam because they do not give anyone that exam until they have already passed all of the earlier hurdles. They have to pass the Background Investigation FIRST which is very thorough. They will not accept someone who was arrested for shoving an undercover cop or for having a Restraining Order for a DV history. Nor from someone fired from a security job for assaulting a woman. If all of those things are TRUE, then he has ZERO chance of working things out and being accepted into the academy. The psych exam is at the end of the hoops they run you through.

Well, I know someone who had a misdemeanor marijuana conviction and got on.. someone else who failed the psychological 3 TIMES and got on... So until we know exactly WHY GZ did not get into the police academy (if in fact he tried) I don't think we should be making assumptions... IMO this thread needs more fact and less unsubstantiated opinion...

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 05:44 PM
According to the link, the officer didn't identify himself to Zimmerman and he assaulted him first so Zimmerman was forced to defend himself.

http://www.scribd.com/heidi_vries/d/87064208-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-application-for-the-Citizens-Police-Academy-in-2008


~jmo~

Interesting. Zimmerman seems to always be in the position where he has no other choice but to defend himself?

First of all, I've dealt with ATF a lot. I was a bartender. They do yearly "raids" where they come into the bar in full uniform, masks, and guns drawn. Yes, they make a big scene. It became funny to me after a few years. Not to the customers though. They would make the manager turn on the lights and everyone in the room had to show identification.

They are always in the clubs undercover and they act just like regular customers. They drink, get lap dances, ask where they can score drugs, etc... one time I had one ask me where he could get some "coke" and I immediately told my manager (we have a zero tolerance policy) and the bouncers yanked him up and took him out... when they got outside, he flashed his ATF badge and told them "good job."

One thing you are NEVER to do is to stop ATF from what they are doing. You are not allowed, under any circumstances to fight with them, argue with them. You sit there and let them do their thing.

I don't know the whole circumstances with Zimmerman and the ATF officers, but if he was trying to ID someone (his friend?) he had that right and if they were undercover, I don't for a minute think that the ATF officer attacked Zimmerman first unless he felt he was a threat to him... sound familiar?

Just a little background on the ATF.

katydid23
04-07-2012, 05:45 PM
LOL. Things happen and maybe that is how the cocktail waitress saw it. We never think we've done anything wrong in a confrontation and that goes for both sides. But your past does come back to haunt you and today it's even worse. Everything shows up on the internet so you can't ever escape anything you've done that becomes news.

GZ's past violent behavior is relevant here because, as the co-worker said, he appears to be the nicest guy but he has some anger management issues. He attended classes for that and still seems to have a problem because he got into a fight. I cannot believe GZ ever turned his back on TM. Did not happen. TM was HIS suspect, he wanted to detain him or he would not have gone after TM. GZ wanted to keep TM from getting away. TM was not headed toward GZ he was headed home. Had GZ stayed with his car as he was asked to do this never would have happened because TM would have gotten home safely. jmo

I totally agree that he should have stayed in his car. That was wrong. But was it ILLEGAL? That is the question. I will admit that I am looking at it from a defense attorney's eyes. That is what shaped me to some extent.

I just have to hear what he said that night himself before i make my decisions. And I am going to take these reports of him as a violent monster with a grain of salt.

HiHater
04-07-2012, 05:47 PM
Did GZ list his domestic violence arrest on that application (Citizens Law Enforcement)?

Was there an actual arrest, if so that means he lied?

JMO MOO IMO

katydid23
04-07-2012, 05:49 PM
Well, I know someone who had a misdemeanor marijuana conviction and got on.. someone else who failed the psychological 3 TIMES and got on... So until we know exactly WHY GZ did not get into the police academy (if in fact he tried) I don't think we should be making assumptions... IMO this thread needs more fact and less unsubstantiated opinion...

A misdemeanor pot conviction could mean they were in the car where a joint was found. That is way different than him having a DV charge or assaulting an officer arrest. imo

I do not believe he got anywhere near taking a psych exam with his record. I don't think he got past the Background Investigation. He had too many brushes with the law that were much more serious than a pot misdemeanor.

katydid23
04-07-2012, 05:54 PM
BEM: It’s against the law in most states for anyone convicted of Domestic violence to buy/ carry a firearm, and that includes police.

"Florida Requirements: Not have been convicted of any felony or of a misdemeanor involving perjury or a false statement, or have received a dishonorable discharge from any of the Armed Forces of the United States. Any person who, after July 1, 1981, pleads guilty or nolo contendere to or is found guilty of any felony or of a misdemeanor involving perjury or a false statement is not eligible for employment or appointment as an officer, notwithstanding suspension of sentence or withholding of adjudication. Notwithstanding this subsection, any person who has pled nolo contendere to a misdemeanor involving a false statement, prior to December 1, 1985, and has had such record sealed or expunged shall not be deemed ineligible for employment or appointment as an officer.

Also having an injunction for domestic violence, or being convicted of domestic violence is almost always a DQ. Being arrested for it is not always one, but most of the time it will be."

That last sentence is puzzling - it's worse to have an injunction than to be convicted? Strange - I will have to go back and look at the record information. I guess I don't understand what a restraining order is.

An arrest for something does not equal an automatic DQ because they have to be open to the fact that someone might be falsely arrested.

One of my sons friends, who is now in the academy was arrested falsely for something, not DV though. BUT he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and it ALMOST got him a DQ from the academy. But he was able to convince them to look more closely at the situation.

Elley Mae
04-07-2012, 05:54 PM
Did GZ list his domestic violence arrest on that application (Citizens Law Enforcement)?

Was there an actual arrest, if so that means he lied?

JMO MOO IMO

http://www.scribd.com/heidi_vries/d/87064208-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-application-for-the-Citizens-Police-Academy-in-2008

He explained it them, he was accepted to the academy.

Isabelle
04-07-2012, 05:54 PM
GZ was working an illegal party. If this lady was a "hostess" I doubt she wanted LE investigating. This man claims GZ was fired over this. It is very easy for LE to check and I'm sure they will.

It is never, ever right for a man to hit a woman. If the relationship was bad and because he had been in trouble before he should have ended it instead of having domestic charges brought against him. And weren't there more than one???? He was either part of the problem or part of the solution and since he stayed with her, he was obviously part of the problem, IMO, because they were not married. Nothing holding him there.

I, too, think he should have been charged with manslaughter and you can be your sweet bippie he wishes now he had been, too. He may have been able to get away with charges of involuntary manslaughter......now they will want more. jmo

What kind of party would be illegal? Just curious.

LambChop
04-07-2012, 05:54 PM
I totally agree that he should have stayed in his car. That was wrong. But was it ILLEGAL? That is the question. I will admit that I am looking at it from a defense attorney's eyes. That is what shaped me to some extent.

I just have to hear what he said that night himself before i make my decisions. And I am going to take these reports of him as a violent monster with a grain of salt.

It was not illegal but it did interfer with LE doing their job. It could have been GZ who was shot and killed because the person he went after could have had a gun. My problem with George is.....he knew better. He had enough exposure to procedures required of private citizens to know he was overstepping his bounds. Once he stepped out of the car he knowing put everyone's life in danger when he did not have to do that. jmo

HiHater
04-07-2012, 05:58 PM
http://www.scribd.com/heidi_vries/d/87064208-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-application-for-the-Citizens-Police-Academy-in-2008

He explained it them, he was accepted to the academy.

I don't see the domestic violence mentioned...

raeann
04-07-2012, 05:59 PM
What kind of party would be illegal? Just curious.

I posted some links for these many threads back, but you can just google illegal house parties. They are most often held in empty homes rented out for a weekend or a few days. They are illegal because the owners do not know that is the purpose for the rental, because liquor laws are violated, drugs are present, and prostitution is often involved. The attendees damage the home, throw trash around the neighborhood, park on lawns, etc. They are most often a money making venture for the promoters who get attendees by handing out fliers at colleges, sporting events, etc.

Concerned Papa
04-07-2012, 06:01 PM
BEM: It’s against the law in most states for anyone convicted of Domestic violence to buy/ carry a firearm, and that includes police.

"Florida Requirements: Not have been convicted of any felony or of a misdemeanor involving perjury or a false statement, or have received a dishonorable discharge from any of the Armed Forces of the United States. Any person who, after July 1, 1981, pleads guilty or nolo contendere to or is found guilty of any felony or of a misdemeanor involving perjury or a false statement is not eligible for employment or appointment as an officer, notwithstanding suspension of sentence or withholding of adjudication. Notwithstanding this subsection, any person who has pled nolo contendere to a misdemeanor involving a false statement, prior to December 1, 1985, and has had such record sealed or expunged shall not be deemed ineligible for employment or appointment as an officer.

Also having an injunction for domestic violence, or being convicted of domestic violence is almost always a DQ. Being arrested for it is not always one, but most of the time it will be."

That last sentence is puzzling - it's worse to have an injunction than to be convicted? Strange - I will have to go back and look at the record information. I guess I don't understand what a restraining order is.

I know very little about the subject of domestic violence, but I ran across this is it helps any:

http://www.flcourts.org/gen_public/family/bin/Firearms%20Quick%20Reference%20Guide.pdf

katydid23
04-07-2012, 06:05 PM
I "think" GZ was a wannabe police officer and trailed TM unnecessarily. I "think" GZ tried to subdue TM in the hopes that LEO would be there shortly and he could look like a hero. I "think" GZ killed TM in cold blood when his attempt at subduing TM became an altercation when TM attempted to defend HIMSELF. I "think" GZ should be arrested immediately and the SPD should be swept clean of all the disappointing LEOs that did NOT do their job properly in this case but "THOUGHT" what they were doing was in the eyes of justice...

I agree that he probably thought he was going to look like a HERO> And it probably cost TM his life. :mad: And I think it happened during the scuffle. I am just not 100% sure who started the physical part of the confrontation yet.

I worked in the public school system. I saw a lot of fights between students. So I am not convinced that TM didn't throw the first punch. Especially if GZ was blocking his path. I could be wrong. I just want to see more facts coming out and not rely upon the muddled stuff/

marlame
04-07-2012, 06:13 PM
I have a question for you that LE had to ask themselves when investigating this case, and the answer they came up with factored into their decision not to arrest GZ. I would imagine the new investigation is looking at the same question. Given the fact that TM took off running, and had a two minute head start on GZ - why do you think TM didn't go home in those two minutes? People only run for two reasons - they are scared of someone, or they are up to no good and think they've been busted.

This is not me taking a side, this is me trying to sleuth the case the way the investigators do - by looking at the facts and leaving emotion out of it. I am sincerely interested in your point of view on this. TIA!

Possibly TM ran just until he was out of sight from GZ and then slowed to a brisk walk?

Just this week I was walking after dark and thought a couple of teen/college-age boys were following me. I started walking faster and it seemed like they sped up too. So I crossed the street at a jog/run to make it to the corner. Once I rounded the corner I slowed down to a quick walk. What is weird is the whole time I kept telling myself "don't act scared - don't let them know you are afraid". But, I was scared to death! My instinct was to get away fast but I to act natural in doing it. The more distance I put between them and myself the better I felt. Needless to say, by the time I got to my car I was shaking like a leaf. Looking back... maybe, once I crossed the street I should have run all the way to my car? But in the panic of the moment I didn't. Weird...

TonyGatto
04-07-2012, 06:19 PM
I posted some links for these many threads back, but you can just google illegal house parties. They are most often held in empty homes rented out for a weekend or a few days. They are illegal because the owners do not know that is the purpose for the rental, because liquor laws are violated, drugs are present, and prostitution is often involved. The attendees damage the home, throw trash around the neighborhood, park on lawns, etc. They are most often a money making venture for the promoters who get attendees by handing out fliers at colleges, sporting events, etc.

If you need more info on house parties Google "Kid n Play".

TonyGatto
04-07-2012, 06:21 PM
This law allows Zimmerman to stand his ground anywhere he can legally be.

I thought it allows any citizen to stand their ground.

raeann
04-07-2012, 06:23 PM
If you need more info on house parties Google "Kid n Play".

Not necessary....lol.....I described it in the earlier thread as Risky Business style parties, only in someone else's house.

RANCH
04-07-2012, 06:24 PM
I don't see the domestic violence mentioned...
I don't know that GZ was arrested for domestic violence, but both he and his ex fiancee had protective injunctions against each other. The injunctions expired in 2006 before GZ applied to the Citizen Police Academy in 2008.

Protective injunctions were later ordered in response to both petitions. Both injunctions expired Aug. 24, 2006. Reached by the Sentinel via email Tuesday, the woman would not comment.


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-21/news/os-george-zimmerman-domestic-violence-20120321_1_petitions-documents-injunctions

http://www.scribd.com/heidi_vries/d/87064208-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-application-for-the-Citizens-Police-Academy-in-2008

deelytful1
04-07-2012, 06:26 PM
n describing her questioning by investigators, the witness remembered expressing that she should have done something more, in retrospect, after hearing the cries for help.

"The lead investigator said to me kindly, 'Well, if it makes you feel any better, the person that was yelling for help is alive,'"

http://www.ktxs.com/news/30851900/detail.html

Apparently the investigators made up their minds even PRIOR to a complete investigation... GREAT police work SPD

The witness goes on to say:
"I know it was very dark, but I really would have to say that I thought it was the larger person on top," the witness said, referring to the heavier build of Zimmerman.

The witness declined to characterize her questioning by investigators as "in depth," instead saying "I just kind of told what I saw and heard."

She noted that when she offered to show the investigators where she saw the scuffle occur, she was told, "Nah, we don't need to see it."

jjenny
04-07-2012, 06:44 PM
http://www.scribd.com/heidi_vries/d/87064208-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-application-for-the-Citizens-Police-Academy-in-2008

He explained it them, he was accepted to the academy.

No, he was accepted into some program for citizens, not police academy.

jjenny
04-07-2012, 06:46 PM
n describing her questioning by investigators, the witness remembered expressing that she should have done something more, in retrospect, after hearing the cries for help.

"The lead investigator said to me kindly, 'Well, if it makes you feel any better, the person that was yelling for help is alive,'"

http://www.ktxs.com/news/30851900/detail.html

Apparently the investigators made up their minds even PRIOR to a complete investigation... GREAT police work SPD

The witness goes on to say:
"I know it was very dark, but I really would have to say that I thought it was the larger person on top," the witness said, referring to the heavier build of Zimmerman.

The witness declined to characterize her questioning by investigators as "in depth," instead saying "I just kind of told what I saw and heard."

She noted that when she offered to show the investigators where she saw the scuffle occur, she was told, "Nah, we don't need to see it."

They already knew where the scuffle was, why would they need to see it again? As for who was larger, I've seen ranges of weights given for both Trayvon and Zimmerman, and Trayvon was apparently taller than Zimmerman. So I really don't know what this witness means by "larger."

jjenny
04-07-2012, 06:47 PM
I thought it allows any citizen to stand their ground.

Yes, it does.

katydid23
04-07-2012, 06:54 PM
apparently she said do you want to GO and see where I saw them scuffling. And they said ' No that's not necessary.' One of the guests on CNN said that the reason the detectives did not need to do that was becasue they had a dead body right outside marking the place the scuffle happened.

Also, the reason the detectives did not ask many questions the first night she was interviewed is that they wanted her to tell her version of the events, without any prompting or questioning on their part. They recorded her story and at the end they added their thoughts. imo

csziggy
04-07-2012, 07:05 PM
On a practical level it's impossible. Most guys have trouble hitting the toilet in the dark, from two feet away, while armed with their favorite 'weapon' -- hitting a moving target under stress with a firearm is something else altogether.

:floorlaugh:

Thanks - I needed that!

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 07:16 PM
What if they started scuffling elsewhere???? MAYBE where the witness saw them scuffling was at the mailboxes OR for you GZ supporters... at the SUV? (truck or whatever it was)...
Shouldn't LEO want to know this?? Shouldn't every avenue be investigated?

Apparently not in this case. It sure sounds to me like they didn't give a hoot about what the witnesses had to say unless they agreed with their agenda.



~jmo~

angelmom
04-07-2012, 07:26 PM
I don't know that GZ was arrested for domestic violence, but both he and his ex fiancee had protective injunctions against each other. The injunctions expired in 2006 before GZ applied to the Citizen Police Academy in 2008.


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-21/news/os-george-zimmerman-domestic-violence-20120321_1_petitions-documents-injunctions

http://www.scribd.com/heidi_vries/d/87064208-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-application-for-the-Citizens-Police-Academy-in-2008

This goes back to GZ intending to apply to the actual police academy and asking his old neighbor for a letter of recommendation back in 2004. Yet there is no record that he actually applied.

I believe someone must have clued him in (or he googled) that he would be disqualified until after the injunction expired, so he chose not to submit the application and wait. (This sentence is JMO based on the paragraph above).

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 07:33 PM
Deputies Called to Zimmerman's Home
Updated: Saturday, 07 Apr 2012, 5:51 PM EDT
Published : Saturday, 07 Apr 2012, 5:51 PM EDT

"I woke up Sunday to Seminole county helicopters right above my sector of the community and I immediately felt very fearful," said Frank Taaffe, who lives at the Retreat at Twin Lakes community where Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.
"It was a scary, scary time," he told FOX35 Friday.
"I ran out to the street and there were nine police cruisers out there - two Seminole and the other seven, Sanford."


Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/local/040712-Deputies-Called-to-Zimmerman's-Home#ixzz1rOtiIRDR

Emeralgem
04-07-2012, 07:35 PM
Apparently not in this case. It sure sounds to me like they didn't give a hoot about what the witnesses had to say unless they agreed with their agenda.



~jmo~

Sorry to say, but this has/is is happening with LE in many cities and towns, mine included and IMHO, enuff is enuff.. This has to end...JMHO

deelytful1
04-07-2012, 07:39 PM
Deputies Called to Zimmerman's Home
Updated: Saturday, 07 Apr 2012, 5:51 PM EDT
Published : Saturday, 07 Apr 2012, 5:51 PM EDT

"I woke up Sunday to Seminole county helicopters right above my sector of the community and I immediately felt very fearful," said Frank Taaffe, who lives at the Retreat at Twin Lakes community where Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.
"It was a scary, scary time," he told FOX35 Friday.
"I ran out to the street and there were nine police cruisers out there - two Seminole and the other seven, Sanford."


Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/local/040712-Deputies-Called-to-Zimmerman's-Home#ixzz1rOtiIRDR


GEEZ!! People have just about lost their minds!!! Sigh.. IMO this situation is only going to get worse before it gets better....

suzihawk
04-07-2012, 07:42 PM
Deputies Called to Zimmerman's Home
Updated: Saturday, 07 Apr 2012, 5:51 PM EDT
Published : Saturday, 07 Apr 2012, 5:51 PM EDT

"I woke up Sunday to Seminole county helicopters right above my sector of the community and I immediately felt very fearful," said Frank Taaffe, who lives at the Retreat at Twin Lakes community where Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.
"It was a scary, scary time," he told FOX35 Friday.
"I ran out to the street and there were nine police cruisers out there - two Seminole and the other seven, Sanford."


Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/local/040712-Deputies-Called-to-Zimmerman's-Home#ixzz1rOtiIRDR

I'm confused. Did this occur last Sunday? If so, why are we just hearing about it now?

i.b.nora
04-07-2012, 07:52 PM
Deputies Called to Zimmerman's Home
Updated: Saturday, 07 Apr 2012, 5:51 PM EDT
Published : Saturday, 07 Apr 2012, 5:51 PM EDT

"I woke up Sunday to Seminole county helicopters right above my sector of the community and I immediately felt very fearful," said Frank Taaffe, who lives at the Retreat at Twin Lakes community where Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.
"It was a scary, scary time," he told FOX35 Friday.
"I ran out to the street and there were nine police cruisers out there - two Seminole and the other seven, Sanford."


Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/local/040712-Deputies-Called-to-Zimmerman's-Home#ixzz1rOtiIRDR
Well, I'm confused. Which Sunday morning? Last Sunday morning? Or, tomorrow Sunday morning? Or, some other Sunday morning?

And, Taaffe seems to want everyone to believe that he lives right next door to George, but I don't think he does.

""I woke up Sunday to Seminole county helicopters right above my sector of the community and I immediately felt very fearful," said Frank Taaffe, who lives at the Retreat at Twin Lakes community where Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.

"It was a scary, scary time," he told FOX35 Friday.

"I ran out to the street and there were nine police cruisers out there - two Seminole and the other seven, Sanford."" — Frank Taaffe

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 07:53 PM
I'm confused. Did this occur last Sunday? If so, why are we just hearing about it now?

I was a little confused about it as well.

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 07:58 PM
Well, I'm confused. Which Sunday morning? Last Sunday morning? Or, tomorrow Sunday morning? Or, some other Sunday morning?

And, Taaffe seems to want everyone to believe that he lives right next door to George, but I don't think he does.

""I woke up Sunday to Seminole county helicopters right above my sector of the community and I immediately felt very fearful," said Frank Taaffe, who lives at the Retreat at Twin Lakes community where Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.

"It was a scary, scary time," he told FOX35 Friday.

"I ran out to the street and there were nine police cruisers out there - two Seminole and the other seven, Sanford."" — Frank Taaffe

It sounds to me like Mr. Taaffe likes his time in the spotlight very much.


~jmo~

deelytful1
04-07-2012, 08:01 PM
It sounds to me like Mr. Taaffe likes his time in the spotlight very much.


~jmo~

LOL definitely! I just emailed the reporter to find out when this actually happened.. This is definitely odd!

Concerned Papa
04-07-2012, 08:05 PM
Well, I'm confused. Which Sunday morning? Last Sunday morning? Or, tomorrow Sunday morning? Or, some other Sunday morning?

And, Taaffe seems to want everyone to believe that he lives right next door to George, but I don't think he does.

""I woke up Sunday to Seminole county helicopters right above my sector of the community and I immediately felt very fearful," said Frank Taaffe, who lives at the Retreat at Twin Lakes community where Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.

"It was a scary, scary time," he told FOX35 Friday.

"I ran out to the street and there were nine police cruisers out there - two Seminole and the other seven, Sanford."" — Frank TaaffeBBM

I don't know anything about where Zimmerman lived other than what it shows here:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/02/us/the-events-leading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin.html

but I can tell you that if the NY Times is correct on Zimmerman's residence, Taaffe does live next door to him.

Isabelle
04-07-2012, 08:10 PM
Deputies Called to Zimmerman's Home
Updated: Saturday, 07 Apr 2012, 5:51 PM EDT
Published : Saturday, 07 Apr 2012, 5:51 PM EDT

"I woke up Sunday to Seminole county helicopters right above my sector of the community and I immediately felt very fearful," said Frank Taaffe, who lives at the Retreat at Twin Lakes community where Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.
"It was a scary, scary time," he told FOX35 Friday.
"I ran out to the street and there were nine police cruisers out there - two Seminole and the other seven, Sanford."


Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/local/040712-Deputies-Called-to-Zimmerman's-Home#ixzz1rOtiIRDR

The article didn't say what Sunday that happened.??

octobermoon
04-07-2012, 08:12 PM
I am sorry for this, but who in this case has a history of calling 911? hmmmm? :whiteflag:

I forgot to add JMO IMO MOO :)

i.b.nora
04-07-2012, 08:17 PM
BBM

I don't know anything about where Zimmerman lived other than what it shows here:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/02/us/the-events-leading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin.html

but I can tell you that if the NY Times is correct on Zimmerman's residence, Taaffe does live next door to him.
Okay, I will go back to being totally and completely confused. Remember, the NY Times diagram has North at the bottom, which is kind of a stupid way to do a map, but perhaps that was the best way for the artist to be able to show all the things he wanted to show. With that said, Zimmerman lives in the south west sector of the "Retreat". I have been under the impression that Mr. Taaffe, his friend and 'neighbor' lives in the north west sector, near The Clubhouse.
Taaffe even mentioned once about how he "patrols" his sector. I presumed he meant the sector in which he lives. Oh well.

deelytful1
04-07-2012, 08:19 PM
Jennifer Bisram FOX 35
23 hours ago via Twitter

On fox at 10p #deputies respond to #georgezimmerman 's home guns drawn; #seminolecounty launches new #investigation #fox35 #trayvonmartin


Above is from the reporter's FB page

Concerned Papa
04-07-2012, 08:19 PM
Well, I'm confused. Which Sunday morning? Last Sunday morning? Or, tomorrow Sunday morning? Or, some other Sunday morning?

And, Taaffe seems to want everyone to believe that he lives right next door to George, but I don't think he does.

""I woke up Sunday to Seminole county helicopters right above my sector of the community and I immediately felt very fearful," said Frank Taaffe, who lives at the Retreat at Twin Lakes community where Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.

"It was a scary, scary time," he told FOX35 Friday.

"I ran out to the street and there were nine police cruisers out there - two Seminole and the other seven, Sanford."" — Frank Taaffe

LOL, I didn't mean for you to have to take my word for where Taaffe lived. I couldn't remember if I grabbed a shot or not, but I did.

http://scpaweb.scpafl.org/v3/

Concerned Papa
04-07-2012, 08:25 PM
Okay, I will go back to being totally and completely confused. Remember, the NY Times diagram has North at the bottom, which is kind of a stupid way to do a map, but perhaps that was the best way for the artist to be able to show all the things he wanted to show. With that said, Zimmerman lives in the south west sector of the "Retreat". I have been under the impression that Mr. Taaffe, his friend and 'neighbor' lives in the north west sector, near The Clubhouse.
Taaffe even mentioned once about how he "patrols" his sector. I presumed he meant the sector in which he lives. Oh well.

I just went back and looked at it and you are correct. I just glanced at the NY Times pic last night when Doc posted it and thought it was the same as the image I grabbed from the Appraiser's site. Good memory on your part. Typical old man's memory on my part, LOL.

octobermoon
04-07-2012, 08:25 PM
Who the heck puts north at the bottom of a map???? As this wasn't confusing enough. :banghead:

Omori
04-07-2012, 08:26 PM
I have a question for you that LE had to ask themselves when investigating this case, and the answer they came up with factored into their decision not to arrest GZ. I would imagine the new investigation is looking at the same question. Given the fact that TM took off running, and had a two minute head start on GZ - why do you think TM didn't go home in those two minutes? People only run for two reasons - they are scared of someone, or they are up to no good and think they've been busted.

This is not me taking a side, this is me trying to sleuth the case the way the investigators do - by looking at the facts and leaving emotion out of it. I am sincerely interested in your point of view on this. TIA!

None of this speculation relevant. There can be any number of reasons he didn't go home. It doesn't matter because the real question is not WHERE he ran but WHY he ran and that answer is obvious--he was confronted. That makes Zimmerman guilty--period.

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 08:30 PM
From the news yesterday (thought it was still interesting).....

Trayvon Martin killing: UN human rights chief calls for investigation

UN Human Rights chief Navi Pillay has called for an "immediate investigation" into the circumstances surrounding the death of Trayvon Martin, the unarmed black teen who was shot dead by a volunteer neighbourhood watchman in Florida.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9189884/Trayvon-Martin-killing-UN-human-rights-chief-calls-for-investigation.html

ThoughtFox
04-07-2012, 08:32 PM
I'm confused. Did this occur last Sunday? If so, why are we just hearing about it now?
I didn't understand that either. Did the writer have the days mixed up because of the long weekend? I've been thinking that today is Sunday all day, LOL. This doesn't help me. ;)

deelytful1
04-07-2012, 08:33 PM
From the news yesterday (thought it was still interesting).....

Trayvon Martin killing: UN human rights chief calls for investigation

UN Human Rights chief Navi Pillay has called for an "immediate investigation" into the circumstances surrounding the death of Trayvon Martin, the unarmed black teen who was shot dead by a volunteer neighbourhood watchman in Florida.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9189884/Trayvon-Martin-killing-UN-human-rights-chief-calls-for-investigation.html

Wow... that's HUGE

i.b.nora
04-07-2012, 08:34 PM
I just went back and looked at it and you are correct. I just glanced at the NY Times pic last night when Doc posted it and thought it was the same as the image I grabbed from the Appraiser's site. Good memory on your part. Typical old man's memory on my part, LOL.
Oh, I knew I was right but I thought it only fair to try to remain open minded about it, on the off chance that I could be wrong. LOL.

I am right about the location of the body too. (IMO) I believe it was more where you first had it in I think Location #1. And, not the location closer to 2831 Retreat View which I believe is your current incarnation.

I really like your maps and diagrams by the way. I just don't always agree with them entirely. But they are very helpful for visualization purposes.

Adrienne37
04-07-2012, 08:37 PM
Trayvon Martin march goes across 40 miles, protesters call for arrest of George Zimmerman

Sanford, Florida - College students from across Florida are marching to Sanford this weekend as part of a movement titled the "The Dream Defenders." They started marching on Friday from Daytona. They plan to arrive in Sanford this Easter Sunday to protest the handling of the Trayvon Martin case.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/topstories/article/249495/250/40-mile-Trayvon-Martin-march-underway

Concerned Papa
04-07-2012, 08:40 PM
Oh, I knew I was right but I thought it only fair to try to remain open minded about it, on the off chance that I could be wrong. LOL.

I am right about the location of the body too. (IMO) I believe it was more where you first had it in I think Location #1. And, not the location closer to 2831 Retreat View which I believe is your current incarnation.

I really like your maps and diagrams by the way. I just don't always agree with them entirely. But they are very helpful for visualization purposes.

Just out of curiosity, why do you think that ambulance vid you posted is incorrect as to the body location?

Footwarrior
04-07-2012, 08:46 PM
Given the fact that TM took off running, and had a two minute head start on GZ - why do you think TM didn't go home in those two minutes?

Listen to the Zimmerman's call to the police. TM starts running when he is near GZ's truck. GZ gets out of his truck and starts running after him perhaps 10 seconds later. TM didn't have a two minute lead on GZ.

lauriej
04-07-2012, 08:48 PM
The article didn't say what Sunday that happened.??

--in the video @ link, she says 'earlier this week' and 'last weekend'...(odd we never heard about this at the time.)

Isabelle
04-07-2012, 08:49 PM
Wow... that's HUGE

I know. I bet GZ never imagined how far reaching his actions would be!

rossva
04-07-2012, 08:53 PM
It was also NBA AllStar Game week, and the game was at AMWAY Arena, in Orlando. Big big thing.



Plus it's right outside of Orlando and people visit that area to vacation at Disney all year round. Some parents don't aways wait until holidays, vacations to visit area family members when they want to visit DisneyWorld. jmo

Omori
04-07-2012, 08:55 PM
(BBM)

It appears that who confronted whom first may indeed be relevant according to the law.

It is the essence of the whole case. Obviously, Zimmerman confronted Martin because he stopped his vehicle and got out while carrying a loaded weapon that was used to kill Martin.


I also strongly believe that the hype, rhetoric, threats, hysteria, opportunism, fomenting of racial divisiveness, shameless media free-for-all, and the public hatefest, does nothing to honor TM's life or memory. That should not have happened, either, IMO.

What a shame it all is. :cry:

If this goes to a jury, the probability of a fair and reasoned verdict has been diminshed considerably by the media which has whipped up emotions and prejudices to a frenzy and facts be damned.

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 08:57 PM
What in the world kind of call would bring out 15 police officers and a helicopter? If it was a bomb threat, the SWAT team would have shown up and the surrounding apartments would have been evacuating. Same thing with any kind of hostage situation... the neighbors would have been evacuated?

I thought the police knew George Zimmerman had moved out and was in hiding?

Something smells bad!

MOO

rossva
04-07-2012, 08:57 PM
BBM Exactly how many people has Zimmerman shot in his life? Why would you think he has a propensity to shoot people? As far as I know he has only shot one, and that was when he was in fear of his life.


BBM: I wonder why he didn't shoot her? lol I think all we have to do is look at his past history and figure out whether or not we believe this story or just take it with a grain of salt. It is pretty easy for LE to check and we have never heard GZ's attorney deny this story is not true. jmo

i.b.nora
04-07-2012, 09:00 PM
Just out of curiosity, why do you think that ambulance vid you posted is incorrect as to the body location?
For the following reasons: #1. Tracy Martin showed in that TV thing where the police had told him and showed him where the body was. #2. (And, I said this before) MarinadeDave visited the site, took and shared some great photographs and talked with people who live there who seemed to know where the body was and pointed it out to him, and #3. The address in the ambulance audio, I believe it was the address that was given by either the first caller to 911 about the incident? (Maybe Mary was the first caller? or the most lucid?) or for some reason it was the address the dispatcher used to direct the ambulance. I don't know that it necessarily indicated that the body was located exactly at that address. But that by going to that address, the ambulance/s would be able to get to the body/ies.

It is obvious in at least one of the 911 calls, that the dispatcher is not aware of the 'layout' of the Retreat, regarding for instance the common backyards with the sidewalk down the middle. And, I think that caused some confusion. IMO.

Anyhow, thats what I am thinking.

vlpate
04-07-2012, 09:00 PM
Listen to the Zimmerman's call to the police. TM starts running when he is near GZ's truck. GZ gets out of his truck and starts running after him perhaps 10 seconds later. TM didn't have a two minute lead on GZ.

Two minutes after TM ran, GZ did not know where he was. I have listened to the 911 call several times and there's nothing to indicate GZ was running for those two minutes.

rossva
04-07-2012, 09:01 PM
I believe none of what you stated is fact; it's all your opinion, unless you have access to a source that state it as fact.



Zimmerman is guilty--period. We don't need to look at past histories or charges of racism--it's all irrelevant. The boy was walking home from the store talking to his girlfriend on his cell phone. That much has been verified. Ergo, he should not be dead. There can be no justification for it. The only way it could haver happened is that Zimmerman confronted the individual. Whether Martin attacked him first is irrelevant. So what if he did? Zimmerman confronted him--there is NO OTHER WAY it could have happened. He is therefore guilty. It's really that simple.

Isabelle
04-07-2012, 09:01 PM
Wonder what GZ's plans for Easter Sunday include. I know what Trayvon's family will feel. There will be something really big missing for them, it will be painful; they will feel as if they have fallen into a black hole.

csziggy
04-07-2012, 09:02 PM
BBM

I don't know anything about where Zimmerman lived other than what it shows here:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/02/us/the-events-leading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin.html

but I can tell you that if the NY Times is correct on Zimmerman's residence, Taaffe does live next door to him.

According to the street number GZ gave LE on his phone call about TM, and according to the Seminole County Property Appraiser's records, GZ and FT live most of a block apart, not next door to each other. There was a typo on the (non)burglary report of FT's place that made it seem as though they lived next door, but I trust the records from the Property Appraiser more than I trust a police report from SPD.

No links provided since the information is/was readily accessible but sleuthing neighbors and friends is not acceptable - so IMO, JMO, etc.

Isabelle
04-07-2012, 09:02 PM
BBM Exactly how many people has Zimmerman shot in his life? Why would you think he has a propensity to shoot people? As far as I know he has only shot one, and that was when he was in fear of his life.

And it seems that one was way too many.

claudicici
04-07-2012, 09:06 PM
I don't hate GZ either.
I hate that a 17 year old child can't walk down a street without being judged.
I hate the tragedy that occurred because of it.

Isabelle
04-07-2012, 09:09 PM
It's not the person, it's the act.

jaded cat
04-07-2012, 09:10 PM
Growing up and working with my defense attorney dad taught me that when a defendant is made public, there can be all kinds of 'evidence' that comes out. And it is not always accurate as a way to gauge who the person really is. Maybe he is a violent, cold hearted monster. But so far, I am not convinced of that.

Just because ONE former co-worker tells a story about him being fired, it does not mean it went down that way exactly.
And if he really did THROW a drunk woman cross the room, then imo, he would have been arrested and or sued by someone.

The same with the RO's from the ex girlfriend. It looks to me like it was a two way volatile relationship. I don't automatically assume that he was the violent one and she was the totally innocent victim. I saw a lot of cases like this when my dad defended clients. It is quite often a two way street.

Not always, but if it is a very violent abusive husband then you often end up with women going for medical treatment and the men being arrested. We have no evidence of that here. I think they both drank and were both immature and jealous.

I BELIEVE HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ARRESTED FOR MANSLAUGHTER ON THE FIRST NIGHT. But I also believe that he is being unfairly painted as a violent, cold blooded, premeditated killer. And so I am responding in defense of him in that way only.

I don't see him as violent or cold blooded, nor do I think it was premeditated. I think he's the sort of person that wouldn't pass a psychological screening for the military or the police department. I see him as someone who, by his own actions, escalated a situation out of control and in the end, a young man was dead. I don't believe he can justify it, regardless of the laws.

I agree he should have been arrested the first night and that he should be in custody now. There is no way this will end well and satisfy everyone at this point. :twocents:

Omori
04-07-2012, 09:14 PM
I believe none of what you stated is fact; it's all your opinion, unless you have access to a source that state it as fact.

I have stated nothing but the facts of the case and eliminated everything else that is merely subjective.

Fact 1: Trayvon Martin was walking home from a store and was talking to his girlfriend on his cell phone. The phone records were checked and this was found to be the case. Do you have any information to the contrary?

Fact 2: George Zimmerman was driving in his vehicle when he spotted Trayvon Martin. He phoned the police and was told not to continue following the suspect. Do you have any information to the contrary?

Fact 3: George Zimmerman was armed with a loaded weapon. Trayvon Martin was unarmed. Do you have ay information to the contrary?

Fact 4: George Zimmerman stopped and exited his vehicle carrying a loaded weapon. Do you have any information to the contrary?

Fact 5: There was a confrontation between Zimmerman and Martin during the course of which Zimmerman killed Martin with said loaded weapon. Do you have any information to the contrary?

Conclusion: George Zimmerman chose to confront Trayvon Martin and killed him. Do you any information to the contrary?

imamaze
04-07-2012, 09:15 PM
Working on a new thread, will be closing this one in a few...

Ima

csziggy
04-07-2012, 09:21 PM
Listen to the Zimmerman's call to the police. TM starts running when he is near GZ's truck. GZ gets out of his truck and starts running after him perhaps 10 seconds later. TM didn't have a two minute lead on GZ.

No there is more slack in the timeline, especially if we take the girlfriend's call times into account. Here is part of the timeline I assembled from GZ's phone call (times from my audio program), the dispatcher log from the SPD, the ABC News shots of TM's girlfrind's call, and the 911 call with the gunshot.


02:06:65 S** he's running.
Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?
02:09:47 (Car door alarm?)
Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood. (car door slam)
02:14:18
Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
Zimmerman: The back entrance…******ing (unintelligible)
02:22:36
19:11:59 subj now running towards back entrance of complex
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah (wind noises)
02:25:20
19:12:00 Trayvon receives call from girlfriend
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Ok
Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name?
Zimmerman: George…He ran. (wind noises continue)
02:38:14
(Wind noises stop some time in here)
Dispatcher: Alright George what's your last name?
02:41:70 (odd clicking noise - gun?)
Zimmerman: Zimmerman
Dispatcher: And George what's the phone number you're calling from?
Zimmerman: (redacted)
Dispatcher: Alright George we do have them on the way, do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
Zimmerman: Alright, where you going to meet with them at?
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate,
03:04:07 (three odd clicking noises under the word gate)
tell them to go straight past the club house,
03:07:40 (three odd clicking noises, louder)
and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, they’ll see my truck... (unintelligible)
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
Dispatcher: Okay do you live in the area?
Zimmerman: Yeah, I...(unintelligible)
Dispatcher: What’s your apartment number?
Zimmerman: It’s a home it’s 1950, oh crap I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t know where this kid is.
Dispatcher: Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?
19:13:12
Zimmerman: Yeah that’s fine.
Dispatcher: Alright George, I’ll let them know to meet you around there okay?
Zimmerman: Actually could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?
Dispatcher: Okay, yeah that’s no problem.
Zimmerman: Should I give you my number or you got it?
Dispatcher: Yeah I got it (redacted by Mother Jones)
Zimmerman: Yeah you got it.
Dispatcher: Okay no problem, I’ll let them know to call you when you’re in the area.
Zimmerman: Thanks.
Dispatcher: You’re welcome.
04:11:00 (recording of call ends)
19:13:41 Compl new req leo 1045 before 1056
19:16:00 Time approximate - call with girlfriend ends after she hears interchange with Trayvon and unknown follower
19:16:00 Call 3 begins
19:16:44:47 GUNSHOT

If the last call from the girlfriend is accurate, it began AFTER Trayvon ran. Then there were four minutes when Trayvon was talking to her. GZ got off the phone with SPD about 19:13:40, leaving 2 minutes and twenty seconds that we don't know where he was. That gets us to 19:16 when the girlfriend's call is cut off and the 911 calls began to come into the SPD.

We know where they both were for at least that last 40+ seconds when we can hear the screaming on the 911 call (recording labeled Call 3 from the Sanford web site that has now been removed.).

I'm at the point where to me it does not matter who was chasing whom, who initiated the physical confrontation or threw the first blow - if there were any blows. To me, that last forty seconds of Trayvon begging for his life and screaming for help shows a period when Trayvon was NOT attacking GZ. During that forty seconds GZ made the choice to shoot that teenager. If I were on a jury, that forty second would prove to me that this was murder.

IMO, JMO, etc.

rbrnmw2
04-07-2012, 09:21 PM
I wonder if there is even enough evidence collected for a conviction


Sent from my Huawei U8800-51 using Tapatalk

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 09:24 PM
This whole call, that had so many officers and a helicopter arrive on scene, reminds me the "Post-it Note -- Assassination-Attempt."

MOO

ETA: I hope whoever made this "call" is caught!

Footwarrior
04-07-2012, 09:25 PM
Two minutes after TM ran, GZ did not know where he was. I have listened to the 911 call several times and there's nothing to indicate GZ was running for those two minutes.

Were exactly was GZ at that point? He claims to have taken the cut through to the next street, then followed the same path back. But that doesn't really fit with where TM's body was found. GM could have been between TM and home.

LolaMoon08
04-07-2012, 09:29 PM
Were exactly was GZ at that point? He claims to have taken the cut through to the next street, then followed the same path back. But that doesn't really fit with where TM's body was found. GM could have been between TM and home.

The most irritating part is that it doesn't make sense. I really, really want to see GZ's written statement and recorded statement the night of the shooting and I want to see the walk-through he did the next day. If we could just have that information, we could really map it out and then look at the evidence that has been "provided" and our wonderful members here can do what they do best.

MOO

imamaze
04-07-2012, 09:35 PM
Closing thread, please continue here...

FL 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #19 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

rossva
04-07-2012, 09:35 PM
Yet another of terrible journalism. BBM. What SUNDAY did this happen?



Deputies Called to Zimmerman's Home
Updated: Saturday, 07 Apr 2012, 5:51 PM EDT
Published : Saturday, 07 Apr 2012, 5:51 PM EDT

"I woke up Sunday to Seminole county helicopters right above my sector of the community and I immediately felt very fearful," said Frank Taaffe, who lives at the Retreat at Twin Lakes community where Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.
"It was a scary, scary time," he told FOX35 Friday.
"I ran out to the street and there were nine police cruisers out there - two Seminole and the other seven, Sanford."


Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/local/040712-Deputies-Called-to-Zimmerman's-Home#ixzz1rOtiIRDR