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imamaze
04-06-2012, 08:23 AM
Please continue here.
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We will no longer allow discussion of Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, or the Black Panther protest(s). There are way too many <modsnips> and timeouts to continue this discussion. We will allow MSM links to such protests, but no discussion.
We need to stick to the facts of this case and that's our discussion here. Please, we ask that you do what you do best - SLEUTH THE CASE.
Blogs and Twitter links and discussion of them are allowed only if it's an approved WS link or a link from main stream media (MSM).


Thread #1 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165269&highlight=Trayvon)
Thread #2 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166351&highlight=Trayvon+martin)
Thread #3 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166513&highlight=Trayvon+martin)
Thread #4 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166660&highlight=Trayvon+martin)
Thread #5
Thread #6 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166872&highlight=Trayvon+Martin)
Thread #7 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167001&highlight=Trayvon+Martin)
Thread #8 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167151&highlight=y%2Fo+teen)
Thread #9
Thread #10
Thread #11
Thread #12
Thread #13
Thread #14
Thread #15
Thread #16
Thread #17

Clairfication on WS stance regarding the "victim friendly" issue.
I had a discussion with the owners about how we were to deal with this. This is what I was advised:
At this point in the investigation we don't KNOW exactly who ALL the victims are now. We KNOW that Trayvon is a victim, because he is dead. However, news breaks and new leaks come forth everyday and it is still unclear whether Zimmerman was a victim of any violence. Until more verifiable FACTS are available, WS has chosen to err on the side of treating both the confirmed (Trayvon) AND potential (Zimmerman) victim, both as victims.
Like I said, that may change after we have more verifiable information
Hope that helps clear this up.
Please bump as needed.

Just a reminder:
WS does not permit links that request or suggest sending donations without the clear permission of the owners . This is to protect our members and for no other reason.
__________________

Peliman
04-06-2012, 08:31 AM
Reposting


I am not quite understanding self defense and a fight. Amongst the many things i have read the past couple days on that subject, I am still wrestling with something I read somewhere. Here goes:
A fight is a crime, both participants are considered guilty of that crime.
The one claiming self defense must have tried to end the fight in a peacefully manner before he took a more aggressive step in trying to protect himself/herself.
I hope I said that right.
I was going to add more, but it will just work its way out of context. So I'll stick with just wondering if that is true when your fighting and feel you have the right to claim self defense.

Good question, made me look it up for the state of Fla.

Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?

A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:

Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.
Using or displaying a handgun in any other circumstances could result in your conviction for crimes such as improper exhibition of a firearm, manslaughter, or worse.

Example of the kind of attack that will not justify defending yourself with deadly force: Two neighbors got into a fight, and one of them tried to hit the other by swinging a garden hose. The neighbor who was being attacked with the hose shot the other in the chest. The court upheld his conviction for aggravated battery with a firearm, because an attack with a garden hose is not the kind of violent assault that justifies responding with deadly force.

Q. What if someone uses threatening language to me so that I am afraid for my life or safety?

A. Verbal threats are not enough to justify the use of deadly force. There must be an overt act by the person which indicates that he immediately intends to carry out the threat. The person threatened must reasonably believe that he will be killed or suffer serious bodily harm if he does not immediately take the life of his adversary.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html

Horace Finklestein
04-06-2012, 08:37 AM
Still not understanding how going to the store after dinner says anything about his intentions or character. I hope this kind of thinking is not present in the grand jury proceedings.

Gin
04-06-2012, 08:46 AM
Still not understanding how going to the store after dinner says anything about his intentions or character. I hope this kind of thinking is not present in the grand jury proceedings.

JMO--I think the whole grocery story is a red herring. The Z's et all don't want to state GZ was out on one of his regular armed volunteer security guard rounds. (You can't be neighborhood watch while packing a 9mm)

Going to buy groceries "sounds" innocent.....
As always, YMMV

LambChop
04-06-2012, 08:47 AM
Still not understanding how going to the store after dinner says anything about his intentions or character. I hope this kind of thinking is not present in the grand jury proceedings.

GZ claims he was on his way to Target and spotted TM on his way out by the clubhouse. However, GZ's father claims TM was cutting through the houses and that is why GZ was suspicious. GZ lives at the other end of the street and would not have been able to see TM cutting through if it happened the way GZ claims. But, FT's house is further up the road where FT could have seen TM using the cut through. So, did he call GZ and GZ hot-footed it out to his car to go check TM out????? That is why there is a question about Target, IMO. Two different versions of how GZ first noticed TM as being suspicious. jmo

LiveLaughLuv
04-06-2012, 08:50 AM
Reposting



Good question, made me look it up for the state of Fla.

Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?

A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:

Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.
Using or displaying a handgun in any other circumstances could result in your conviction for crimes such as improper exhibition of a firearm, manslaughter, or worse.

Example of the kind of attack that will not justify defending yourself with deadly force: Two neighbors got into a fight, and one of them tried to hit the other by swinging a garden hose. The neighbor who was being attacked with the hose shot the other in the chest. The court upheld his conviction for aggravated battery with a firearm, because an attack with a garden hose is not the kind of violent assault that justifies responding with deadly force.
Q. What if someone uses threatening language to me so that I am afraid for my life or safety?

A. Verbal threats are not enough to justify the use of deadly force. There must be an overt act by the person which indicates that he immediately intends to carry out the threat. The person threatened must reasonably believe that he will be killed or suffer serious bodily harm if he does not immediately take the life of his adversary.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html

BBM

This is what I was trying to figure out...you can meet force with force..

but is fist to guns meeting force with force? As I stated earlier, this was unbalanced from the start with GZ having a loaded gun to TM's fists...if he did beat GZ..but I keep going back to the funeral director who saw no trace of TM being in a fistfight...I wonder what the autopsy will show...

Peliman
04-06-2012, 08:53 AM
BBM

This is what I was trying to figure out...you can meet force with force..

but is fist to guns meeting force with force? As I stated earlier, this was unbalanced from the start with GZ having a loaded gun to TM's fists...if he did beat GZ..but I keep going back to the funeral director who saw no trace of TM being in a fistfight...I wonder what the autopsy will show...

I think the defense that will be presented is this.

Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;

JMO of course.

TonyGatto
04-06-2012, 08:55 AM
JMO--I think the whole grocery story is a red herring. The Z's et all don't want to state GZ was out on one of his regular armed volunteer security guard rounds. (You can't be neighborhood watch while packing a 9mm)

Going to buy groceries "sounds" innocent.....
As always, YMMV

It is a red herring. The fact is that GZ shot and killed TM. GZ tried to hold him for police and when TM defended himself, GZ pulled the trigger, IMO.

Elley Mae
04-06-2012, 09:01 AM
I have thought that GZ saw TM on his way of the community on his way to target. The pool house which is just inside the main entrance on the left. And that is why he was in a vehicle.

Marshmallow
04-06-2012, 09:03 AM
I think the defense that will be presented is this.

Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;

JMO of course.



I think Mr Martin was acting in selfdefense, that negates Mr Zimmerman's excuse of selfdefense. Mr Zimmerman accosted Mr Martin, that cannot be selfdefense.

LambChop
04-06-2012, 09:04 AM
I also do not think GZ was ever appointed as a courtesy officer by the HOA. At the very least owners and residents would have been aware of who he was and what his function was in order for them to cooperate. The only information circulated was by LE that if residents had questions about the NWP they could contact GZ. That was not giving GZ the authority for anything other than administrative contacts. GZ, however, obviously took it to the max using that as an excuse to promote himself to a position of authority.

If RZ knew his son had this arrangement he would have certainly mentioned it by now. It appears GZ has had this obsession for a long time. Obviously if GZ felt so unsafe in this community, and he was only leasing his home, he should have moved out to a safer community......unless, he enjoyed his role as self-appointed watchman. jmo

Peliman
04-06-2012, 09:05 AM
I think Mr Martin was acting in selfdefense, that negates Mr Zimmerman's excuse of selfdefense. Mr Zimmerman accosted Mr Martin, that cannot be selfdefense.

Define accosted for me please.

mfcmom
04-06-2012, 09:07 AM
I fear for the citizens of Sanford if he is not at least taken into protective custody if not charged, reading some of the racist comments on Orlando papers frightens me, they are asking residents to "lock and load". Whatever happens this is not going to be good. We need to stress and encourage calm and order. He needs to be charged and this needs to be determined in a court of law, not on the streets or here. JMO

Elley Mae
04-06-2012, 09:10 AM
I also do not think GZ was ever appointed as a courtesy officer by the HOA. At the very least owners and residents would have been aware of who he was and what his function was in order for them to cooperate. The only information circulated was by LE that if residents had questions about the NWP they could contact GZ. That was not giving GZ the authority for anything other than administrative contacts. GZ, however, obviously took it to the max using that as an excuse to promote himself to a position of authority.

If RZ knew his son had this arrangement he would have certainly mentioned it by now. It appears GZ has had this obsession for a long time. Obviously if GZ felt so unsafe in this community, and he was only leasing his home, he should have moved out to a safer community......unless, he enjoyed his role as self-appointed watchman. jmo


I for one do not think that GZ's atty will allow GZ to say he was "on duty"
I am thinking that GZ did this on his own time.

LambChop
04-06-2012, 09:16 AM
I have thought that GZ saw TM on his way of the community on his way to target. The pool house which is just inside the main entrance on the left. And that is why he was in a vehicle.

Correct. That is when GZ called dispatch and said there was a suspicious person at the clubhouse which is right inside the front gate. However, RZ claims his son spotted TM cutting through the houses and from Oregon Avenue the only cut through would be right at the curve of the road on Retreat View Circle. If you are looking down at the map it would be to your far left. The clubhouse is in the center portion of Retreat View Circle as you enter the gate. If GZ were off to the store and reached the clubhouse in time to see TM how would be know TM cut through the houses???? It's about the same distance to the cut through on Twin Tree which appears to be a two plus minute walk. jmo

Adrienne37
04-06-2012, 09:23 AM
I for one do not think that GZ's atty will allow GZ to say he was "on duty"
I am thinking that GZ did this on his own time.

There is supposed to be no "ON DUTY" for Zimmerman. He was not supposed to be making rounds and he certainly wasn't supposed to be stalking a kid through the neighborhood while packing a 9 mm loaded weapon. All of this about him being on duty, making his rounds, etc., etc., etc. is going to be Zimmerman's downfall and thankfully we have many, many, many reports thanks to Zimmerman's friends and family that he was doing the complete opposite of what he was supposed to be doing and this is exactly the reason the story about going to buy milk suddenly became going to buy groceries, etc. Zimmerman himself has sunk his own ship.



~Jmo~

Footwarrior
04-06-2012, 09:25 AM
Was George Zimmerman released before the identity of Trayvon Martin was known?

suspicious1
04-06-2012, 09:28 AM
GZ claims he was on his way to Target and spotted TM on his way out by the clubhouse. However, GZ's father claims TM was cutting through the houses and that is why GZ was suspicious. GZ lives at the other end of the street and would not have been able to see TM cutting through if it happened the way GZ claims. But, FT's house is further up the road where FT could have seen TM using the cut through. So, did he call GZ and GZ hot-footed it out to his car to go check TM out????? That is why there is a question about Target, IMO. Two different versions of how GZ first noticed TM as being suspicious. jmo

Maybe that's why FT felt the need to defend GZ the way he does. What if this all started with him calling GZ to report the suspicious Trayvon walking through the bldgs. Maybe they know this information may come out and needed another reason forGZ to be out. The Zimmerman crew are refuting that now.....claiming he was out to get groceries.

Just a thought.

TonyGatto
04-06-2012, 09:28 AM
Was George Zimmerman released before the identity of Trayvon Martin was known?

By all accounts yes. GZ was released in the 3am hour. Police confirmed TM's identity through his dad later in the morning, I believe in the 8am hour. What are you thinking?

Phoenixfla
04-06-2012, 09:29 AM
Saw this interesting article:

Zimmerman's family: George handed out fliers, protesting police coddling of white suspect

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-05/news/os-george-zimmerman-fliers-20120405_1_sherman-ware-justin-collison-robert-zimmerman

From the article:
"Ironically, Tonetta Foster, the sister of Sherman Ware, the man punched by Collison, took part in a Trayvon rally March 19 at the Seminole Criminal courthouse at which protesters called for Zimmerman's arrest.

"I stand for justice for Trayvon, for Sherman Ware," she said.

A lawyer for Trayvon's family, Natalie Jackson, represented Ware. She said she did not believe Zimmerman handed out any fliers. She called the family's account "race baiting".

Isnt that sad. Just goes to show that no good deed goes unpunished.

katydid23
04-06-2012, 09:39 AM
By all accounts yes. GZ was released in the 3am hour. Police confirmed TM's identity through his dad later in the morning, I believe in the 8am hour. What are you thinking?

According to the*Washington Post, a police report that was completed at 3:07 a.m. lists Trayvon's full name, city of birth, address and phone number.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/321864/20120330/trayvon-martin-case-unanswered-questions-add-more.htm

Elley Mae
04-06-2012, 09:41 AM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/06/us-usa-crime-martin-nbc-idUSBRE83502B20120406

NBC News declined to comment on Thursday. The network said on Tuesday it would not release names of the employees involved. It has apologized for the incident.

Why not release names and show pictures of people that try to cause trouble.

Concerned Papa
04-06-2012, 09:45 AM
LiveLaughLuv made this comment on the other thread just before this one opened up:


I happen to believe GZ pounced on TM, so this A**hole wouldn't get away..which is when the wrestling began..

I saw a map where they showed where TM was shot dead, yards from his doorstep and where GZ lives...but I'd like to see where exactly ZM had his vehicle parked..which is important....he claims TM came to his vehicle...so, how would he get from one end of that complex to where TM was shot dead in under 2 minutes...does anyone have a map to show where the vehicle was parked in relation to where TM died? TIA

Don't be confused with the relationship of GZ's residence to where TM lived or died. The two points are across the complex from one another.

As to the location of GZ's vehicle, while we don't know for sure there are logical conclusions that can be drawn from the events and statements of the 911 call. We know that TM's path of movement began at the clubhouse and continued eastward in the direction of his home. The following statement is from the 911 call:


911 dispatcher:

He’s near the clubhouse now?

Zimmerman:

Yeah, now he’s coming toward me

-The fact that TM was near the clubhouse tells us he has just started walking down the street.

-GZ's statement of "now he's coming toward me" places Zimmerman and his truck at a point farther eastward along the street.

I would tend to think that, initially, George was watching TM's movement from a point about halfway along Twin Trees. Once TM passed him and reached the sidewalk at the end of the buildings, it would seem logical to me that GZ would move his truck to where the sidewalk left the curb line for a better vantage point.

It could be that this moving of the truck is what set TM running.

TonyGatto
04-06-2012, 09:49 AM
According to the*Washington Post, a police report that was completed at 3:07 a.m. lists Trayvon's full name, city of birth, address and phone number.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/321864/20120330/trayvon-martin-case-unanswered-questions-add-more.htm

Well this is really fishy. I can't imagine that cops knew the full identitiy at 3:07am, and if they did, how did they get it, if not from his dad? This really lends credence to police hanky-panky.

It wasn’t until Trayvon’s father, Tracy Martin, called to file a missing-persons report on Feb. 27 that police went to his fiancee’s house with pictures of his son’s dead body. News reports have said that Trayvon’s body was tagged as a John Doe. But the “Partial Report Only” that was completed at 3:07 a.m. on Feb. 27 lists Trayvon’s full name, city of birth, address and phone number. How did police get that information? Was Trayvon carrying identification? Did police try to contact that home number?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/the-killing-of-trayvon-martin-more-questions/2011/03/04/gIQALETDeS_blog.html

suzihawk
04-06-2012, 09:52 AM
According to the*Washington Post, a police report that was completed at 3:07 a.m. lists Trayvon's full name, city of birth, address and phone number.

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/321864/20120330/trayvon-martin-case-unanswered-questions-add-more.htm

I wonder how they would know that if he didn't have any ID on him? Who would have ID'd him?

suzihawk
04-06-2012, 09:54 AM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/06/us-usa-crime-martin-nbc-idUSBRE83502B20120406

NBC News declined to comment on Thursday. The network said on Tuesday it would not release names of the employees involved. It has apologized for the incident.

Why not release names and show pictures of people that try to cause trouble.

"The sources described the producer's actions as a very bad mistake, but not deliberate."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/06/us-usa-crime-martin-nbc-idUSBRE83502B20120406

Boytwnmom
04-06-2012, 09:55 AM
which would hopefully prevent employee disciplinary action by a private employer to become publicized. I don't think many of us want our employers to send out a press release out about what we did at work. From what I've read it was not done intentionally by someone high up at the network, it was done by production people preparing the recording for airing. It seems rather absurd thing to focus on anyway-the actual recording was available basically everywhere so it was instantaneously noticed and thus had no impact or effect as there was no way to edit it and not have it be noticed since it was being broadcast so widely.




http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/06/us-usa-crime-martin-nbc-idUSBRE83502B20120406

NBC News declined to comment on Thursday. The network said on Tuesday it would not release names of the employees involved. It has apologized for the incident.

Why not release names and show pictures of people that try to cause trouble.

katydid23
04-06-2012, 09:55 AM
Well this is really fishy. I can't imagine that cops knew the full identitiy at 3:07am, and if they did, how did they get it, if not from his dad? This really lends credence to police hanky-panky.

It wasn’t until Trayvon’s father, Tracy Martin, called to file a missing-persons report on Feb. 27 that police went to his fiancee’s house with pictures of his son’s dead body. News reports have said that Trayvon’s body was tagged as a John Doe. But the “Partial Report Only” that was completed at 3:07 a.m. on Feb. 27 lists Trayvon’s full name, city of birth, address and phone number. How did police get that information? Was Trayvon carrying identification? Did police try to contact that home number?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/the-killing-of-trayvon-martin-more-questions/2011/03/04/gIQALETDeS_blog.html

Maybe they ran his prints or got his cell number and used a reverse directory?
Why would it mean police hanky-panky?

mercuriod
04-06-2012, 09:55 AM
Was George Zimmerman released before the identity of Trayvon Martin was known?

Yes he was

waltzingmatilda
04-06-2012, 10:00 AM
http://orlandoweekly.com/news/trayvon-martin-case-is-a-black-eye-for-sanford-1.1295169

Thanks to whoever posted this link on the last thread! Very insightful info on the climate there in Sanford. IMO, if there was ever a govt. agency that needs cultural diversity training it would be Sanford PD.

I am saying a prayer for truth and justice in this case and also for peace in Sanford, regardless of the outcome.

IMO, it sounds like GZ has two sides to his personality like my ex. He projected a good image to his friends and co-workers but wasn't really close to any of them but he had a violent, criminal side which he kept hidden for the most part. And his dad always 'saved' him when he got into trouble. I tried to tell people, called 911 when he beat me up, called the domestic violence center and had a few close friends who believed me and helped me to get out of there. It was only after we had been divorced a few years that his evil ways finally caught up with him and he was imprisoned and folks finally realized that I wasn't just blowing hot air about the things he did. Jesse jackson's rainbow coalition even filed suit against his business, which was licensed by the FCC, for racism and not hiring enough minorities. He was a gifted liar.

IDK I guess the similarities I see between the two is why I question GZ's camps version of events. Plus I am older and wiser now, lol! Sorry for the personal story but I needed to get that off my chest.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-boyce-watkins/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_b_1393761.html

MOO

wm

mercuriod
04-06-2012, 10:04 AM
Maybe they ran his prints or got his cell number and used a reverse directory?
Why would it mean police hanky-panky?

You do know that to get a result from running someone's prints that person has to have their "prints" on file somewhere, such as after an arrest where they were fingerprinted, joining the military, working for the federal, state or local government. etc. We know that TM did NOT have a criminal record, he was only 17 so he was not in the military or a government employee. So just how would the police department have been able to ID him from "prints"?

If they used a reverse directory and located his ID from that why did they not contact his parents? Why did it take his father calling around and requesting to file a missing person report for the police to finally notifying him of the death of his son?

jmo, imo and all that jazz

katydid23
04-06-2012, 10:04 AM
Yes he was

Are you sure? Because the police listed his identity on a report at 3:27 am. Do you have a link showing what time they released GZ?

LambChop
04-06-2012, 10:04 AM
I think the defense that will be presented is this.

Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;

JMO of course.

How could that be when GZ was on his way to the store, had no reason to believe TM was a suspect based on the information he gave LE. GZ thought TM was suspicious for a number of unfounded reasons and the only thing true was that TM was black and had a hoodie. TM was not posing a threat at the very moment GZ called it in. GZ essentially caused the death of, who at the time can be described under the law as an innocent person, by his very actions. GZ put the "cause" into the "effect".

That could be defense's case but it can't change the facts because they are documented. A jury could see GZ as being overzealous by taking matters into his own hands and deciding TM's fate for him. The only person we are hearing from in his community is FT. FT will NOT make a good witness for the defense, IMO. jmo

TonyGatto
04-06-2012, 10:11 AM
Maybe they ran his prints or got his cell number and used a reverse directory?
Why would it mean police hanky-panky?

His fingerprints are not in any database. He's never been arrested. Police don't just put something in an official report just by using a reverse directory. It would be hanky-panky if the original report did not contain it -- but the report was updated later without being noted that is was updated -- or -- they knew who he was at 3am and didn't contact his father and then feigned ignorance later in the morning when they met with him. I'm not saying any of this is fact -- I'm just speculating. Something isn't right here -- we can all agree with that.

Concerned Papa
04-06-2012, 10:11 AM
From RZ's latest interview:


ZIMMERMAN: Off of that sidewalk there's another sidewalk that goes between two rows of townhomes. It's my understanding that Trayvon went between the two rows of townhomes, and George was walking down the main sidewalk to see if he could see where Trayvon was going.

He continued walking down that sidewalk to the next street. He wanted an address. All he could see was the back of the townhomes and he could not see an address. So he asked the dispatcher to have the responding unit call him, and he could tell him the address. So he walked down to the end of the street -- I'm sorry, to the end of the sidewalk to the next street to get an address. He did not know at that time where Trayvon Martin had gone. As he was walking back to his vehicle, there was a sidewalk that goes to his left and Trayvon came from that area where the sidewalks meet. He asked my son if he had a problem, and George said, no, I don't have a problem. Trayvon said, well, you do now. He punched him in the face, broke his nose, knocked him to the sidewalk, and got on him and started beating him.

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/04/05/exclusive-george-zimmermans-father-defends-son-trayvon-martin-shooting?page=2#ixzz1rGizhu4T

Hmmm....Wonder why Richard seems so intent on convincing us that George was walking while TM was running?

katydid23
04-06-2012, 10:12 AM
You do know that to get a result from running someone's prints that person has to have there "prints" on file somewhere, such as after an arrest where they were fingerprinted, joining the military, working for the federal, state or local government. etc. We know that TM did NOT have a criminal record, he was only 17 so he was not in the military or a government employee. So just how would the police department have been able to ID him from "prints"?

If they used a reverse directory and located his ID from that why did they not contact his parents? Why did it take his father calling around and requesting to file a missing person report for the police to finally notifying him of the death of his son?

jmo, imo and all that jazz

Yes, I DO know that a person has to have their prints on file. I put that POSSIBILITY out there because we don't really know if there MIGHT be a reason his prints would be on file.

As for the reverse directory, that makes sense to me. IF they had his Miami address, and it was 3 am, why would they call and wake up a parent at 3 am if they were not yet CERTAIN of the teens true identity?

And they do not do death notifications of a child by telephone like that. They would have sent someone out there in person the next morning , imo.

They went and visited the father immediately upon hearing of the missing person filing that morning. How else was LE supposed to know the kids parent was in that town at the time? They had a Miami address and they were not even sure it was the right ID.

LambChop
04-06-2012, 10:13 AM
Maybe they ran his prints or got his cell number and used a reverse directory?
Why would it mean police hanky-panky?

It is possible they knew who TM was but had no way to get ahold of the father, if Dad was listed on the cell phone as the account owner. He was not at home, he was in Sanford and LE would have no way to know he was not in Miami. But, on the other hand, if the cell phone was in his Dad's name they would have a record of his Dad's cell phone number and could have called him.

So it does seem fishy unless LE added the name when he was identified and before they released the reports. If the reports are not signed they are just reports on a computer and we all know the identity would have had to been added once he was identified. They would not keep him listed as John Doe. jmo

Horace Finklestein
04-06-2012, 10:15 AM
http://orlandoweekly.com/news/trayvon-martin-case-is-a-black-eye-for-sanford-1.1295169

Thanks to whoever posted this link on the last thread! Very insightful info on the climate there in Sanford. IMO, if there was ever a govt. agency that needs cultural diversity training it would be Sanford PD.

I am saying a prayer for truth and justice in this case and also for peace in Sanford, regardless of the outcome.

IMO, it sounds like GZ has two sides to his personality like my ex. He projected a good image to his friends and co-workers but wasn't really close to any of them but he had a violent, criminal side which he kept hidden for the most part. And his dad always 'saved' him when he got into trouble. I tried to tell people, called 911 when he beat me up, called the domestic violence center and had a few close friends who believed me and helped me to get out of there. It was only after we had been divorced a few years that his evil ways finally caught up with him and he was imprisoned and folks finally realized that I wasn't just blowing hot air about the things he did. Jesse jackson's rainbow coalition even filed suit against his business, which was licensed by the FCC, for racism and not hiring enough minorities. He was a gifted liar.

IDK I guess the similarities I see between the two is why I question GZ's camps version of events. Plus I am older and wiser now, lol! Sorry for the personal story but I needed to get that off my chest.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-boyce-watkins/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_b_1393761.html

MOO

wm

A violent criminal side? GZ has no convictions, and may have been acting in self defense. <modsnip>

LambChop
04-06-2012, 10:18 AM
From RZ's latest interview:



Hmmm....Wonder why Richard seems so intent on convincing us that George was walking while TM was running?

I know???? It's raining, he has a car with headlights. He could have backed his car up to see the numbers on the house where he was parked. It makes on sense. jmo

TonyGatto
04-06-2012, 10:18 AM
A violent criminal side? GZ has no convictions, and may have been acting in self defense. <modsnip>

He had a misdemeanor conviction from the felony arrest for the physical altercation and resisting a law enforcement officer in the bar incident.

katydid23
04-06-2012, 10:19 AM
His fingerprints are not in any database. He's never been arrested. Police don't just put something in an official report just by using a reverse directory. It would be hanky-panky if the original report did not contain it -- but the report was updated later without being noted that is was updated -- or -- they knew who he was at 3am and didn't contact his father and then feigned ignorance later in the morning when they met with him. I'm not saying any of this is fact -- I'm just speculating. Something isn't right here -- we can all agree with that.

There are other ways besides an arrest that can get you in the database. We do not know everything about TM or if he ever applied for any program or job where he had to be printed.

And how would they contact his father at 3 am if his father was staying with his girlfriend? How would LE have that number?

LE does not do death notifications of children by calling a parent at 3 am and saying MAYBE we have your sons body here.

Horace Finklestein
04-06-2012, 10:19 AM
Yes, I DO know that a person has to have their prints on file. I put that POSSIBILITY out there because we don't really know if there MIGHT be a reason his prints would be on file.

As for the reverse directory, that makes sense to me. IF they had his Miami address, and it was 3 am, why would they call and wake up a parent at 3 am if they were not yet CERTAIN of the teens true identity?

And they do not do death notifications of a child by telephone like that. They would have sent someone out there in person the next morning , imo.

They went and visited the father immediately upon hearing of the missing person filing that morning. How else was LE supposed to know the kids parent was in that town at the time? They had a Miami address and they were not even sure it was the right ID.

You'd think the parents would have called the police if he didn't come home that night...could that be how they knew?

Elley Mae
04-06-2012, 10:20 AM
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/46971618/

Of the seven calls placed by George Zimmerman, the man who shot Trayvon Martin, there were five where he reported suspicious-looking young men in the area -- but he never mentioned the men's race without first being asked.

TonyGatto
04-06-2012, 10:21 AM
There are other ways besides an arrest that can get you in the database. We do not know everything about TM or if he ever applied for any program or job where he had to be printed.

And how would they contact his father at 3 am if his father was staying with his girlfriend? How would LE have that number?

LE does not do death notifications of children by calling a parent at 3 am and saying MAYBE we have your sons body here.

You actually think they printed his dead body, matched it against some still undisclosed database? So what do you make of all this?

Adrienne37
04-06-2012, 10:23 AM
Yes, I DO know that a person has to have their prints on file. I put that POSSIBILITY out there because we don't really know if there MIGHT be a reason his prints would be on file.

As for the reverse directory, that makes sense to me. IF they had his Miami address, and it was 3 am, why would they call and wake up a parent at 3 am if they were not yet CERTAIN of the teens true identity?

And they do not do death notifications of a child by telephone like that. They would have sent someone out there in person the next morning , imo.

They went and visited the father immediately upon hearing of the missing person filing that morning. How else was LE supposed to know the kids parent was in that town at the time? They had a Miami address and they were not even sure it was the right ID.

Yea, sort of like they did when they finally managed to notify Tracy Martin about Trayvon's murder when the officer pulled out his phone and showed Tracy a picture of Trayvon laying face down on the ground with his eyes opened, saliva coming out of his mouth, and a tear on his cheek? <modsnip>


~jmo~

lauriej
04-06-2012, 10:24 AM
A violent criminal side? GZ has no convictions, and may have been acting in self defense. <modsnip>

--she's referring to her EX, not george.

"waltzing matilda"--"IMO, it sounds like GZ has two sides to his personality like my ex. He projected a good image to his friends and co-workers but wasn't really close to any of them but he had a violent, criminal side which he kept hidden for the most part."

TonyGatto
04-06-2012, 10:25 AM
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/46971618/

Of the seven calls placed by George Zimmerman, the man who shot Trayvon Martin, there were five where he reported suspicious-looking young men in the area -- but he never mentioned the men's race without first being asked.

This lends support to the argument that GZ is not a racist. It does nothing to mitigate the fact that he followed TM and ended up putting a bullet in his chest, killing him.

LambChop
04-06-2012, 10:26 AM
A violent criminal side? GZ has no convictions, and may have been acting in self defense. < modsnip>

GZ has a recorded history of violent confrontations. They are public record and a former co-worker stated that when GZ worked as a bouncer he was fired for throwing a woman across a table causing her bodily injury. It's not bashing when it's based on information that is known to be true. You don't have to have convictions to prove you have some control issues. GZ has history that has been continually unchecked. One has the right to ask questions why he has never been held accountable. Everyone has a right to question why he never faced charges in the past for his behavior, everyone. It appears to have influenced his decision to follow TM on that fateful night. GZ has no fear of being held accountable for his actions it's quite obvious in that lockup tape. jmo

katydid23
04-06-2012, 10:27 AM
You actually think they printed his dead body, matched it against some still undisclosed database? So what do you make of all this?

I never said that is how I thought they found his identity--just that they MIGHT have had his prints on file. You do not need to be arrested to be in that database. If he had joined the ROTC or the LE cadet program in high school for example, he would have his prints on file. Also, if he had a brush with the law at 14, we would not know that, but he would possibly have been printed.

Footwarrior
04-06-2012, 10:28 AM
By all accounts yes. GZ was released in the 3am hour. Police confirmed TM's identity through his dad later in the morning, I believe in the 8am hour. What are you thinking?

Until Tracy Martin identified his son, the authorities did not know that Trayvon Martin was an invited guest of a neighborhood resident.

At 3 am when George Zimmerman was released, the authorities were still thinking that GZ shot a prowler. Trayvon was a punk kid from out of town that had no legitimate reason to be inside his gated neighborhood and was clearly up to no good. This perception made it easier to accept Zimmerman's story that he was jumped from behind.

Horace Finklestein
04-06-2012, 10:29 AM
--she's referring to her EX, not george.

"waltzing matilda"--"IMO, it sounds like GZ has two sides to his personality like my ex. He projected a good image to his friends and co-workers but wasn't really close to any of them but he had a violent, criminal side which he kept hidden for the most part."

Yes, and what were the two sides that GZ supposedly has, like the ex? Nice side and violent criminal side.

Concerned Papa
04-06-2012, 10:30 AM
From the 911 call:


Zimmerman:

It’s a home. It’s 1950 – oh, crap, I don’t want to give it out – I don’t know where this kid is [inaudible] [3:40]

When GZ made this statement at 7:13:14 pm, one thing becomes very clear.

When he pulled the trigger three minutes and twenty seven seconds later, he knew it was just a young boy he was killing.

Horace Finklestein
04-06-2012, 10:31 AM
GZ has a recorded history of violent confrontations. They are public record and a former co-worker stated that when GZ worked as a bouncer he was fired for throwing a woman across a table causing her bodily injury. It's not bashing when it's based on information that is known to be true. You don't have to have convictions to prove you have some control issues. GZ has history that has been continually unchecked. One has the right to ask questions why he has never been held accountable. Everyone has a right to question why he never faced charges in the past for his behavior, everyone. It appears to have influenced his decision to follow TM on that fateful night. GZ has no fear of being held accountable for his actions it's quite obvious in that lockup tape. jmo

By that token TM had an incident in which he had jewlery that wasn't his and a burglary tool...yet that is clearly disregarded when it is relevant to whether he may have been casing homes. That's considered "bashing" though. TM had a criminal background as well, but with no convictions.

TonyGatto
04-06-2012, 10:31 AM
Until Tracy Martin identified his son, the authorities did not know that Trayvon Martin was an invited guest of a neighborhood resident.

At 3 am when George Zimmerman was released, the authorities were still thinking that GZ shot a prowler. Trayvon was a punk kid from out of town that had no legitimate reason to be inside his gated neighborhood and was clearly up to no good. This perception made it easier to accept Zimmerman's story that he was jumped from behind.

But look at the Washington Post link. They reported that all of TM's info was in the 3:26am police report. IMO, that's what we should be trying to sleuth.

Horace Finklestein
04-06-2012, 10:32 AM
From the 911 call:



When GZ made this statement at 7:13:14 pm, one thing becomes very clear.

When he pulled the trigger three minutes and twenty seven seconds later, he knew it was just a young boy he was killing.

Yes and he knew it was a young boy that was attacking him as well.

katydid23
04-06-2012, 10:34 AM
GZ has a recorded history of violent confrontations. They are public record and a former co-worker stated that when GZ worked as a bouncer he was fired for throwing a woman across a table causing her bodily injury. It's not bashing when it's based on information that is known to be true. You don't have to have convictions to prove you have some control issues. GZ has history that has been continually unchecked. One has the right to ask questions why he has never been held accountable. Everyone has a right to question why he never faced charges in the past for his behavior, everyone. It appears to have influenced his decision to follow TM on that fateful night. GZ has no fear of being held accountable for his actions it's quite obvious in that lockup tape. jmo

One ex-coworker anonymously telling a story does not make it true, imo.
If he really threw a woman across the room she would have sued or had him arrested, imo.
If ee accept that story, then we have to accept the one about TM punching the bus driver, imo. But there is no verification.

I am not saying he wasn't controlling, or obnoxious or out of control. But I do not see a lot of proven info that he was ,in fact, violent. He and his gf had a matching set of restraining orders. But he had no DV arrests that I know of.

He made calls about 6 suspicious persons, but did he ever attack or grab any of them before?

francie
04-06-2012, 10:34 AM
You do know that to get a result from running someone's prints that person has to have their "prints" on file somewhere, such as after an arrest where they were fingerprinted, joining the military, working for the federal, state or local government. etc. We know that TM did NOT have a criminal record, he was only 17 so he was not in the military or a government employee. So just how would the police department have been able to ID him from "prints"?

If they used a reverse directory and located his ID from that why did they not contact his parents? Why did it take his father calling around and requesting to file a missing person report for the police to finally notifying him of the death of his son?

jmo, imo and all that jazz

What about a driver's license fingerprint/thumbprint on file if Trayvon has his license?

LambChop
04-06-2012, 10:35 AM
He had a misdemeanor conviction from the felony arrest for the physical altercation and resisting a law enforcement officer in the bar incident.

Wasn't it a plea deal?? The officer agreed to drop the charges if GZ attended an anger management program? Records were never sealed because he obviously had issues later with domestic violence charges from his ex. I think GZ was hoping all those incidents would disappear from the public record within a few years so he could put his application into LE. I believe that is why he had not applied sooner. He couldn't until someone helped him get those records sealed. But in GZ's mind, he was already acting the part of LE. jmo

LiveLaughLuv
04-06-2012, 10:35 AM
By that token TM had an incident in which he had jewlery that wasn't his and a burglary tool...yet that is clearly disregarded when it is relevant to whether he may have been casing homes. That's considered "bashing" though. TM had a criminal background as well, but with no convictions.

I haven't seen where TM had a criminal background...the kid has never been arrested last I read..

I just had to run a full scan...it seems I've got a redirect malware...after looking at articles on TM...:what:

someone doesn't want me looking...:giggle:

TonyGatto
04-06-2012, 10:36 AM
Yes and he knew it was a young boy that was attacking him as well.

How do you know TM was attacking GZ. Link please?

Isabelle
04-06-2012, 10:39 AM
Still not understanding how going to the store after dinner says anything about his intentions or character. I hope this kind of thinking is not present in the grand jury proceedings.

Going to the store may have been used to show he was not actively patrolling the neighborhood at the time. If he wasn't acting as captain of NW, would the HOA have any responsibilities? And then again, he might have needed groceries and the going to the store story came up. Who knows!

TonyGatto
04-06-2012, 10:40 AM
I haven't seen where TM had a criminal background...the kid has never been arrested last I read..

I just had to run a full scan...it seems I've got a redirect malware...after looking at articles on TM...:what:

someone doesn't want me looking...:giggle:

He had no criminal background. He was never charged with a crime, let alone convicted. And even if he was "casing" homes, that's not illegal. You can't be arrested for "casing" or looking at homes. Just like folks who are saying it wasn't illegal for GZ to follow TM.

Footwarrior
04-06-2012, 10:40 AM
But look at the Washington Post link. They reported that all of TM's info was in the 3:26am police report. IMO, that's what we should be trying to sleuth.

The actual police reports (http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/images/newsgraphics/2012/0329-trayvon/trayvon-police-report.pdf) had TM's home address, but not the address where he was staying.

Horace Finklestein
04-06-2012, 10:40 AM
I haven't seen where TM had a criminal background...the kid has never been arrested last I read..

I just had to run a full scan...it seems I've got a redirect malware...after looking at articles on TM...:what:

someone doesn't want me looking...:giggle:

He certainly does. He was caught with an empty bag of weed, caught with jewelry that wasn't his along with a screwdriver (determined to be a burglary tool), he allegedly punched a bus driver. He's been caught doing lots of stuff, just never arrested. He was given second chances, I'm assuming because of his age. This has been discussed here but people only want to look at the negatives in GZ's past.

waltzingmatilda
04-06-2012, 10:41 AM
Is domestic violence and assaulting a police officer not violence?. I'm not bashing GZ, my opinions are based on facts from his public records.

I stated in my post that I pray for TRUTH and JUSTICE and peace whatever the outcome. I also qualified my post as a personal opinion based on experience. Past actions do tell alot about a person....not only GZ but TM also. Unfortunately, Trayvon is unable to tell his side of the story and at this point in time all we are hearing is GZ's side. And IMO, he has a good reason to embellish his story.

I enjoy everyone's opinions and thoughts and welcome a lively discussion but I reserve the right to express my opinion. So please be kind and don't accuse me of bashing, as it is only my opinion based on the facts we have at this point in the investigation. Thank you.

wm







MOO

wm

Isabelle
04-06-2012, 10:42 AM
How did the 'was going to the store' think come up?
Did GZ tell LE he was going to the store?
Did GZ's family and friends state it in the media?
Anybody know where the 'going to the store' story came from?

Horace Finklestein
04-06-2012, 10:42 AM
How do you know TM was attacking GZ. Link please?

The eyewitness report of TM on top of GZ, the documented injuries on the back of GZ's head. All in the police report. The links are all over the place. <modsnip>

LambChop
04-06-2012, 10:43 AM
One ex-coworker anonymously telling a story does not make it true, imo.
If he really threw a woman across the room she would have sued or had him arrested, imo.
If ee accept that story, then we have to accept the one about TM punching the bus driver, imo. But there is no verification.

I am not saying he wasn't controlling, or obnoxious or out of control. But I do not see a lot of proven info that he was ,in fact, violent. He and his gf had a matching set of restraining orders. But he had no DV arrests that I know of.

He made calls about 6 suspicious persons, but did he ever attack or grab any of them before?

Right, being drunk and at an illegal party that she may have had some part in arranging...yep, I could see her calling LE. There would be proof of GZ being fired from his job. And we have heard nothing from GZ's camp about this story NOT being true. That would be because you don't pick at a sore, IMO.

The domestic violence charges are on the books and were handled at the "bench" level by the judge telling them to stay away from each other. I mean that always works, right???? Again, he manages to escape charges of a violent crime and there were more than one and they were dismissed each time. Amazing. Domestic violence is often not taken seriously by the courts. We've all seen it happen. jmo

TonyGatto
04-06-2012, 10:46 AM
He certainly does. He was caught with an empty bag of weed, wrong, not bag o weed, residue caught with jewelry that wasn't his could have been his girl's along with a screwdriver (determined to be a burglary tool) it's a screwdriver, period, he allegedly punched a bus driver.kids talking on Twitter He's been caught doing lots of stuff, just never arrested. He was given second chances, I'm assuming because of his age. This has been discussed here but people only want to look at the negatives in GZ's past.

No evidence Trayvon even touched a gun, unlike GZ, who owned one, carried it, and used it to kill a 17 year old boy.

Adrienne37
04-06-2012, 10:46 AM
How did the 'was going to the store' think come up?
Did GZ tell LE he was going to the store?
Did GZ's family and friends state it in the media?
Anybody know where the 'going to the store' story came from?

It started with Zimmerman going to the store for milk and then his Zimmerman Sr. during one of his interviews stated that he was going to the store for groceries because he always did his grocery shopping on Sunday night and that GZ had been texting his sister right before heading to the store.



~jmo~

Isabelle
04-06-2012, 10:47 AM
BBM

This is what I was trying to figure out...you can meet force with force..

but is fist to guns meeting force with force? As I stated earlier, this was unbalanced from the start with GZ having a loaded gun to TM's fists...if he did beat GZ..but I keep going back to the funeral director who saw no trace of TM being in a fistfight...I wonder what the autopsy will show...

Interesting how the comments about TM seeing GZ's gun and saying to GZ,
something along the lines of 'you're gonna die'. I think that would put GZ within the law. Otherwise they way I read it, NOT and GZ should have been in jail a long time ago.

Does this law say that if you "think" someone has a gun you can kill them. I don't think so.

Gin
04-06-2012, 10:47 AM
He certainly does. He was caught with an empty bag of weed, caught with jewelry that wasn't his along with a screwdriver (determined to be a burglary tool), he allegedly punched a bus driver. He's been caught doing lots of stuff, just never arrested. He was given second chances, I'm assuming because of his age. This has been discussed here but people only want to look at the negatives in GZ's past.

In many ways this seems to be bashing a murder victim. Trayvon can't speak for himself, he was silenced. I pray for justice.

JeannaT
04-06-2012, 10:48 AM
From the 911 call:



When GZ made this statement at 7:13:14 pm, one thing becomes very clear.

When he pulled the trigger three minutes and twenty seven seconds later, he knew it was just a young boy he was killing.

Not to split hairs, but no one would call Trayvon a "young boy". He's as old as a boy can be and still be legally considered a boy.

Regardless, you don't have to die or be maimed at the hands of a boy in Florida. Even though Trayvon is underage, victims have the right to shoot to kill if he's slamming their head on the concrete.

katydid23
04-06-2012, 10:48 AM
Right, being drunk and at an illegal party that she may have had some part in arranging...yep, I could see her calling LE. There would be proof of GZ being fired from his job. And we have heard nothing from GZ's camp about this story NOT being true. That would be because you don't pick at a sore, IMO.

The domestic violence charges are on the books and were handled at the "bench" level by the judge telling them to stay away from each other. I mean that always works, right???? Again, he manages to escape charges of a violent crime and there were more than one and they were dismissed each time. Amazing. Domestic violence is often not taken seriously by the courts. We've all seen it happen. jmo

Just because someone does not deny some rumor publicly, does not mean it is automatically true.

I think GZ should have been arrested that night. My only issue now is that he may be being unfairly judged and railroaded because of the initial backlash. And I hate to see that happen to anyone. I don't think he went 'hunting' for a black teen that night.

LiveLaughLuv
04-06-2012, 10:48 AM
He certainly does. He was caught with an empty bag of weed, caught with jewelry that wasn't his along with a screwdriver (determined to be a burglary tool), he allegedly punched a bus driver. He's been caught doing lots of stuff, just never arrested. He was given second chances, I'm assuming because of his age. This has been discussed here but people only want to look at the negatives in GZ's past.

No Horace...that was his school suspension...never arrested as far as I know..the weed residue makes him bad? Damn I believe the entire world should smoke weed...they'd be mellow and not so violent...:maddening:

Again, you're talking about unsubstantiated facts with the bus driver...I'd bet if he did punch a bus driver he would and should have been arrested...but that doesn't negate GZs actions this night..He knew nothing about TM or those allegations...so what point does that make???

I guess it depends if someone is outraged enough to know an unarmed CHILD was shot and killed by an older, supposedly more mature ADULT...patrolling the community with a loaded gun...I guess we should bring back uncivilizaiton and the wild west...:banghead:

Horace Finklestein
04-06-2012, 10:49 AM
In many ways this seems to be bashing a murder victim. Trayvon can't speak for himself, he was silenced. I pray for justice.

I thought facts weren't bashing? People just want to silence any voice that supports GZ. Sad. Define anything supportive of GZ as bashing...nice. It's certainly relevant.

TonyGatto
04-06-2012, 10:49 AM
The eyewitness report of TM on top of GZ, the documented injuries on the back of GZ's head. All in the police report. The links are all over the place. <modsnip>

The fact that GZ may have had injuries has absolutely no bearing on who attacked whom. If you are basing your assertion that TM attacked GZ on one eyewitness account, you should state it. And I have every right to ask you for a link it you make unsubstantiated claims. <modsnip>.

CathyinTexas
04-06-2012, 10:51 AM
GZ claims he was on his way to Target and spotted TM on his way out by the clubhouse. However, GZ's father claims TM was cutting through the houses and that is why GZ was suspicious. GZ lives at the other end of the street and would not have been able to see TM cutting through if it happened the way GZ claims. But, FT's house is further up the road where FT could have seen TM using the cut through. So, did he call GZ and GZ hot-footed it out to his car to go check TM out????? That is why there is a question about Target, IMO. Two different versions of how GZ first noticed TM as being suspicious. jmo

I thought that GZ saw Trayvon entering the gated community through the gates from the road and he was facing toward him. I thought TM proceeded to walk on the sidewalk toward his destination and he walked by GZ or probably on the other side. Did GZ turn his car around and begin slowly following Trayvon and that is why TM "checked him out"? I never thought that FT might be involved. Good possibility though, but FT hasn't spoken with GZ (according to him) and it seems to keep their stories straight they would have to communicate. jmo

Isabelle
04-06-2012, 10:52 AM
It started with Zimmerman going to the store for milk and then his Zimmerman Sr. during one of his interviews stated that he was going to the store for groceries because he always did his grocery shopping on Sunday night and that GZ had been texting his sister right before heading to the store.



~jmo~

At any rate, I don't think GZ's going to the store means anything except to say he was not acting as NHW Captain at the time, especially considering he was carrying his gun.

i.b.nora
04-06-2012, 10:54 AM
How did the 'was going to the store' think come up?
Did GZ tell LE he was going to the store?
Did GZ's family and friends state it in the media?
Anybody know where the 'going to the store' story came from?
The Chief of Police was the first to mention it as I recall, although he didn't specifically say he was going to the store to get milk, he said (paraphrasing) 'George was on a personal errand.'

CathyinTexas
04-06-2012, 10:54 AM
No Horace...that was his school suspension...never arrested as far as I know..the weed residue makes him bad? Damn I believe the entire world should smoke weed...they'd be mellow and not so violent...:maddening:

Again, you're talking about unsubstantiated facts with the bus driver...I'd bet if he did punch a bus driver he would and should have been arrested...but that doesn't negate GZs actions this night..He knew nothing about TM or those allegations...so what point does that make???

I guess it depends if someone is outraged enough to know an unarmed CHILD was shot and killed by an older, supposedly more mature ADULT...patrolling the community with a loaded gun...I guess we should bring back uncivilizaiton and the wild west...:banghead:

If TM had punched a bus driver, it would be caught on tape and he would have been arrested and charged with assault. He has never been arrested and does not have criminal record, but GZ does. Past behavior predicts future behavior which usually escalates and it has in this case.

justplainmetal
04-06-2012, 10:54 AM
Yes and he knew it was a young boy that was attacking him as well.

Going by past judgement calls from the police...from the article I posted in the Orlando Weekly (http://orlandoweekly.com/news/trayvon-martin-case-is-a-black-eye-for-sanford-1.1295169)..If he did attack GZ he was doing so within the law. MOO

"Likewise, Rebecca Wright said at the hearing, her son was killed in 2010, and his killer was allowed to go free because he thought he was being followed, felt threatened and shot her son."

3doglady
04-06-2012, 10:58 AM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/06/us-usa-crime-martin-nbc-idUSBRE83502B20120406

NBC News declined to comment on Thursday. The network said on Tuesday it would not release names of the employees involved. It has apologized for the incident.

Why not release names and show pictures of people that try to cause trouble.


The sources described the producer's actions as a very bad mistake, but not deliberate.

Seriously? The media bias has added fuel to this and the person responsible isn't going to be released to the public? He/She should be held accountable just as the police chief should. Can't say that I'm surprised. If it were a right wing news agency everyone would be screaming.

CathyinTexas
04-06-2012, 11:01 AM
I also do not think GZ was ever appointed as a courtesy officer by the HOA. At the very least owners and residents would have been aware of who he was and what his function was in order for them to cooperate. The only information circulated was by LE that if residents had questions about the NWP they could contact GZ. That was not giving GZ the authority for anything other than administrative contacts. GZ, however, obviously took it to the max using that as an excuse to promote himself to a position of authority.

If RZ knew his son had this arrangement he would have certainly mentioned it by now. It appears GZ has had this obsession for a long time. Obviously if GZ felt so unsafe in this community, and he was only leasing his home, he should have moved out to a safer community......unless, he enjoyed his role as self-appointed watchman. jmo

It is interesting to me that TM's girlfriend was asked if she knew GZ and if she was aware of breakins in the complex and she said no to both. If there was a problem of this magnitude wouldn't the HOA have sent that information to all residents? She also said she lived there for some years (?) and it is peaceful and safe community. That might have been the case before GZ moved in.

justplainmetal
04-06-2012, 11:02 AM
What about a driver's license fingerprint/thumbprint on file if Trayvon has his license?

I read somewhere that he had no license on him. Am not sure if it said whether or not he actually had a license and it just wasn't on him. MOO

LambChop
04-06-2012, 11:04 AM
The eyewitness report of TM on top of GZ, the documented injuries on the back of GZ's head. All in the police report. <modsnip>

Those reports appear to be correct. We do not know how TM ended up on top. It is just as likely, because we know GZ was pursuing TM, that TM tried to turn to walk away from GZ (or gave GZ some lip such as "None of your business" when GZ asked him what he was doing there) and GZ grabbed at TM to keep him from leaving because he knew LE was on their way. We only have one side. TM can't talk and LE seems to have botched up the crime scene by asking for a narcotics officer to investigate. GZ could have hit his head in the fall. With GZ on the bottom he still could have flipped TM off easily, or grabbed him in a spot that would have caused TM to roll off him immediately to get away. I mean, even we ladies know about that. I think the problem was the gun. It's hard to hold someone from getting away, hold onto your gun and grab them in a self defensive move all at the same time. We know GZ did not want TM to get away. It's very possible that first call for help did come from GZ but he wanted someone to grab TM so he could get up and help hold him until LE got there. And then things just went terribly wrong.

I don't think, and have never thought GZ intended to shot TM. I think he wanted to keep TM from getting away. I believe GZ was willing to do anything up to shooting TM to keep him from getting away but once the gun was exposed (and we hear those painful cries) TM believed GZ was going to shoot him. He may have tried to get the gun away (who wouldn't do that if you thought someone was going to shoot you) and GZ's fear caused him to pull the trigger. That is why GZ told LE, "I shot him". Because that is exactly what happened, GZ shot TM. jmo

Boytwnmom
04-06-2012, 11:05 AM
if I see a black person and conclude he's a criminal it's the same whether I mention it or not. If he saw a black boy and then called 911 because he found him suspicious, the boy is still black whether or not he says it out loud. I don't get this point about him not volunteering the race of a person. The issue is whether he drew conclusions based on race not whether he verbalized them voluntarily or at all or in response to questions.






http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/46971618/

Of the seven calls placed by George Zimmerman, the man who shot Trayvon Martin, there were five where he reported suspicious-looking young men in the area -- but he never mentioned the men's race without first being asked.

LambChop
04-06-2012, 11:05 AM
I read somewhere that he had no license on him. Am not sure if it said whether or not he actually had a license and it just wasn't on him. MOO

I've never been fingerprinted for my license. I've never been fingerprinted, period. jmo

Wise Old Owl
04-06-2012, 11:06 AM
What about a driver's license fingerprint/thumbprint on file if Trayvon has his license?
In Florida they don't take any prints when you get a license - no thumb or any other fingers.

Concerned Papa
04-06-2012, 11:06 AM
Not to split hairs, but no one would call Trayvon a "young boy". He's as old as a boy can be and still be legally considered a boy.

Regardless, you don't have to die or be maimed at the hands of a boy in Florida. Even though Trayvon is underage, victims have the right to shoot to kill if he's slamming their head on the concrete.

I'm not questioning whether or not George received some kind of little boo boo in a scuffle. However, when you read the chronological narrative of the police report and realize the severity of his "beating" required only a few minutes of treatment before he was CLEARED for transport, I am questioning whether they rose to the level of justifiably "fearing for one's life".

Particularly when he walked into the jail less than 36 minutes after pulling the trigger, at 7:52 pm, looking fresh as a daisy.

i.b.nora
04-06-2012, 11:09 AM
Based on the police report, George kept his gun in its holster, INSIDE his waistband, so I am not sure how it could have been exposed to viewing by Trayvon unless George pulled it out of his holster. IF Trayvon actually saw it. Just thinking.

marlame
04-06-2012, 11:09 AM
At any rate, I don't think GZ's going to the store means anything except to say he was not acting as NHW Captain at the time, especially considering he was carrying his gun.

GZ's going to the store may not mean anything...
OR it could be a CYA story because he was carrying his gun while out patrolling the neighborhood?

Wasn't it GZ's dad that initally said GZ never followed/chased Trayvon or left his truck? :waitasec:

JMHO~

mercuriod
04-06-2012, 11:10 AM
What about a driver's license fingerprint/thumbprint on file if Trayvon has his license?

We don't do that here in FL. No fingerprint/thumbprint required to get a driver's license.

daisy7
04-06-2012, 11:11 AM
What about a driver's license fingerprint/thumbprint on file if Trayvon has his license?

FL does not fingerprint you for a DL.

LambChop
04-06-2012, 11:15 AM
I thought that GZ saw Trayvon entering the gated community through the gates from the road and he was facing toward him. I thought TM proceeded to walk on the sidewalk toward his destination and he walked by GZ or probably on the other side. Did GZ turn his car around and begin slowly following Trayvon and that is why TM "checked him out"? I never thought that FT might be involved. Good possibility though, but FT hasn't spoken with GZ (according to him) and it seems to keep their stories straight they would have to communicate. jmo

It was GZ's father who said George became suspicious because TM was cutting through the houses. There is only one place he could have done that before the clubhouse. It's an area that you would expect someone to cut through for a shortcut and avoid the gate. There is a camera on the gate but we have no idea if it caught TM coming through the gate. But did LE ever check??? FT claims he has had no contact with GZ since the incident, never mentioned right before. jmo

TonyGatto
04-06-2012, 11:15 AM
CBS headline reads: Zimmerman lawyer: Client convicted by media. I would amend it to read: Zimmerman lawyer: Client convicted by media. Not even arrested in real life

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57410388/zimmerman-lawyer-client-convicted-by-media/

JeannaT
04-06-2012, 11:15 AM
I'm not questioning whether or not George received some kind of little boo boo in a scuffle. However, when you read the chronological narrative of the police report and realize the severity of his "beating" required only a few minutes of treatment before he was CLEARED for transport, I am questioning whether they rose to the level of justifiably "fearing for one's life".

Particularly when he walked into the jail less than 36 minutes after pulling the trigger, at 7:52 pm, looking fresh as a daisy.

In all fairness, people have been "cleared for transport" and have then died in their cells of injuries.

The injuries I've seen are not a "booboo" as you state.

TonyGatto
04-06-2012, 11:16 AM
CBS headline reads: Zimmerman lawyer: Client convicted by media. I would amend it to read: Zimmerman lawyer: Client convicted by media. Not even arrested in real life

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57410388/zimmerman-lawyer-client-convicted-by-media/

beach
04-06-2012, 11:17 AM
He certainly does. He was caught with an empty bag of weed, caught with jewelry that wasn't his along with a screwdriver (determined to be a burglary tool), he allegedly punched a bus driver. He's been caught doing lots of stuff, just never arrested. He was given second chances, I'm assuming because of his age. This has been discussed here but people only want to look at the negatives in GZ's past.

BBM

I take issue with the bolded statement. These things have been discussed here ad nauseum. As well as the not flattering incidents from GZ's past.


************************************************** *****

Mod Note:


To everyone participating in this tiresome back & forth -

STOP THE FLIPPIN' "RIGHT FIGHTING" HERE.

I am sick of it. It does NOTHING except incite arguments and bickering amongst members who disagree. Both sides have advocates who are more concerned about being right than actually sleuthing to determine the facts.

If you guys can't be mature enough to adopt the simple "Agree to disagree" approach, we will help solve that issue.

It is Easter weekend. Mods are exhausted from this case alone. One way or another these threads are going to take a more tolerant, civil, respectful tone. We will simply TO those who continue to bait, incite and post inflammatory remarks when the intention is to ellicit visceral responses from the other side of the fence.

Mods are going to be given a break this holiday weekend. It is up to you guys if you would like to be here or not.

JeannaT
04-06-2012, 11:17 AM
CBS headline reads: Zimmerman lawyer: Client convicted by media. I would amend it to read: Zimmerman lawyer: Client convicted by media. Not even arrested in real life

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57410388/zimmerman-lawyer-client-convicted-by-media/

Yes, and that's telling, isn't it? About the potential of the media and the public to get a story SO completely wrong, and then refuse to back down and even entertain the thought that they've misrepresented the facts of the case for the pleasure of getting all riled up. Oh and selling advertisement.

Beyond Belief
04-06-2012, 11:18 AM
This case certainly opens your eyes to alot of things going on that you would not ordinarily think about.

francie
04-06-2012, 11:18 AM
I read somewhere that he had no license on him. Am not sure if it said whether or not he actually had a license and it just wasn't on him. MOO

I remember he had no ID with him & he may not have had a drivers license, I just was thinking if FL has a database of drivers' fingerprints that they possibly could have used it to identify him?

LiveLaughLuv
04-06-2012, 11:19 AM
City of Sanford prepares for response to George Zimmerman decision
Zimmerman shot, killed Trayvon Martin in February
Published On: Apr 05 2012 06:11:38 PM EDT Updated On: Apr 05 2012 08:08:06 PM EDT
SANFORD, Fla. - The city of Sanford is preparing for the outcome of the special prosecutor's decision about George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watchman who shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin but has not been charged.

Sanford Mayor Jeff Triplett said on Thursday that the city's emergency management team has met regularly with the U.S Department of Justice to construct a plan. Officials said extra police officers and fire department officials are on standby. Neighboring agencies have also been asked to assist, if needed.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/City-of-Sanford-prepares-for-response-to-George-Zimmerman-decision/-/1637132/10276020/-/xeilns/-/index.html




Lawyers: Zimmerman whispered 'punks' before shooting

Hmmmm, wonder if that's enough to garner 'hate'....since the attorneys who haven't even met GZ face to face are admitting this...could it go against them?

I still don't believe those were the words whispered...I believe it was a racial slur...but the defining moment will be what this investigation from ACory and DOJ prove...that will be the bottom line...

LambChop
04-06-2012, 11:21 AM
I read somewhere that he had no license on him. Am not sure if it said whether or not he actually had a license and it just wasn't on him. MOO

Yes, I guess if he had a license on him, they would know who he was. He didn't have a wallet, just the money. jmo

Isabelle
04-06-2012, 11:22 AM
I've never been fingerprinted for my license. I've never been fingerprinted, period. jmo

Never been fingerprinted here for license either, but have been fingerprinted for a nursing license.

francie
04-06-2012, 11:25 AM
I've never been fingerprinted for my license. I've never been fingerprinted, period. jmo

Interesting. I know Calif & other states take a fingerprint for licenses, I didn't realize some states don't do this. :)

LiveLaughLuv
04-06-2012, 11:25 AM
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. - A task force examining Florida's "stand your ground" self-defense law was told Thursday that the Trayvon Martin shooting is one example of the law's ambiguity and the potential unintended consequences it has created.

"What we've discovered is, in a drug deal gone bad, people die, and this is the defense," Buddy Jacobs, general counsel for the Florida Prosecuting Attorneys Association, told the 18-member panel. "Our conclusion is that this law ought to be repealed. We don't think it's a thing we can tweak."

The 2005 law is under nationwide scrutiny following the Feb. 26 shooting in Sanford of the unarmed, 17-year-old Martin by neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman. Martin's family and supporters want Zimmerman arrested, but police say they were prevented from doing so because of the law. At least 20 other states have similar stand your ground laws.

The task force organizer, state Sen. Chris Smith, of Fort Lauderdale, said the 7-year-old law has been controversial in past cases and likely will be again long after the Martin case has faded from national attention.

"It did not begin and it will not end with the Trayvon Martin case," said Smith, a Democrat. "There is a lot of misconception and misunderstanding around the state. It can lead to dangerous incidents."




http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Florida-task-force-told-stand-your-ground-law-confusing/-/1637132/10278578/-/w60ax2/-/index.html

Isabelle
04-06-2012, 11:26 AM
If TM had no ID on him, license or other, how would LE know what his address was in Miami? If LE had the address in Miami, why didn't they communicate with that LE office so they could notify his mother? LE just did not do a very good job here. If LE had done a thorough job all of this carp wouldn't be going on. It would then be justice for Trayvon and GZ. You have only LE to thank for everything that has happened since the killing.

francie
04-06-2012, 11:26 AM
In Florida they don't take any prints when you get a license - no thumb or any other fingers.

Thank you! :)

angelmom
04-06-2012, 11:28 AM
He certainly does. He was caught with an empty bag of weed, caught with jewelry that wasn't his along with a screwdriver (determined to be a burglary tool), he allegedly punched a bus driver. He's been caught doing lots of stuff, just never arrested. He was given second chances, I'm assuming because of his age. This has been discussed here but people only want to look at the negatives in GZ's past.

I think the difference here is that Trayvon was in trouble for three things in the past:

1) writing obscene graffiti on the wall (my DD's 5th grade class is having the same problem in the boys' room right now)
2) an empty packet with marijuana residue (not a good sign but not illegal either)
3) jewelry that could not be matched to any reported theft and a screwdriver "that they felt could be used as a burglary tool."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-investigated-trayvon-martin-jewelry-16015168#.T38B8I6Q2KM

None of those things has any bearing on the night of 2/26 because even GZ has not said that Trayvon was:

1) writing on anything or vandalizing anything
2) smoking pot or anything else
3) breaking into a house, trying doorknobs, checking windows, or anything else to indicate that he was planning to rob someone. He was "looking around." That's all. I assume GZ was also "looking around" since he saw TM.

Also, TM was not found with a weapon, jewelry or anything else that had been stolen, graffiti tools, or so much as a bobby pin to break in somewhere.


OTOH:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/trayvon-martin-case-george-zimmerman_n_1392591.html

GZ has a history of violent acts, especially over people he seems to feel some authority over, like the woman at the party where he was the bouncer, or his ex. For example:


He was fired for being too aggressive with patrons.

“He had a temper and he became a liability,” the newspaper quoted the former co-worker as saying. “One time this woman was acting a little out of control. She was drunk. George lost his cool and totally overreacted,” he said. “It was weird, because he was such a cool guy, but he got all nuts. He picked her up and threw her. It was pure rage. She twisted her ankle. Everyone was flipping out.”


Zimmerman attacked her while the two were driving to a counseling session. Zuazo said she popped her gum in his face and he repeatedly smacked her in the face. In January 2002, she added, Zimmerman became enraged that she had come home late. They wrestled and he threw her on the bed, smacking her.


In addition, he seems to have some trouble accepting someone else's authority over him, like a police dispatcher (no, I understand it's not illegal to ignore their advice, but it's also not smart.)


a cursory search of county records showed a 2005 arrest on charges of resisting arrest and assaulting a law enforcement officer.

And then there is the history of making a BFD out of nothing and calling police. Not to mention following the person and creating a more dangerous situation than the one he initially called about.


In September 2003, Zimmerman called police and reported that another motorist spat on him, according to reports, Zimmerman followed the man in his car until the police arrived...In a police report of the incident, Osum said “at one point, he thought Mr. Zimmerman was going to attack him."

So when people bring up Trayvon's "history" it does reek of blaming the victim. When people bring up GZ's history it is absolutely relevant to what might have happened here. I believe that GZ called police and made a BFD out of nothing, as he had in the past; followed Trayvon, as he had others in the past; ignored the dispatcher's advice; and assaulted Trayvon as he had others in the past.

When you add in that the lead detective on the scene didn't believe GZ's story, when you add in that the funeral director said Trayvon's body showed no sign of a fight or scuffle, when you add in the lack of emergency medical treatment for GZ and the video where he appears to be just fine...it seems obvious to me that this is at least enough reason to investigate and possibly go to trial.

I am not being the judge, jury and executioner for GZ. I am not saying he is guilty (although I think that is most likely). I am saying there needs to be an investigation. I think someone needs to take this seriously. And I don't think anyone did until people started protesting and sharing on social media and making a fuss. While I agree that GZ shouldn't be arrested b/c of the outcry, I also don't think it should have taken this kind of outcry to prompt an investigation. It warranted one all by itself.

I also have to say that it makes me crazy that a 19 yo I know was taken into police custody and held in the jail over a fake ID at a bar longer than GZ was the night he admittedly shot an unarmed teenager. The city of Sanford has no one to blame for this except themselves. If they had arrested GZ that night, investigated, and then released him saying it appeared he acted in self-defense, I don't think anyone would have ever heard of either GZ or TM.

Just my :twocents:

TonyGatto
04-06-2012, 11:28 AM
Yes, and that's telling, isn't it? About the potential of the media and the public to get a story SO completely wrong, and then refuse to back down and even entertain the thought that they've misrepresented the facts of the case for the pleasure of getting all riled up. Oh and selling advertisement.

For all the bashing the media has taken, I believe that on the whole it has done a good job. It's an important story and I'm glad it's getting national attention.

katydid23
04-06-2012, 11:30 AM
If TM had no ID on him, license or other, how would LE know what his address was in Miami? If LE had the address in Miami, why didn't they communicate with that LE office so they could notify his mother? LE just did not do a very good job here. If LE had done a thorough job all of this carp wouldn't be going on. It would then be justice for Trayvon and GZ. You have only LE to thank for everything that has happened since the killing.

They might have gotten his Miami info from his cell provider.

How do we know they were NOT going to go and speak with his mother in Miami? They would not call her to notify her of her sons death, they would send an officer. But I bet they wanted to make sure it was him before they did that.

Footwarrior
04-06-2012, 11:33 AM
If TM had no ID on him, license or other, how would LE know what his address was in Miami? If LE had the address in Miami, why didn't they communicate with that LE office so they could notify his mother? LE just did not do a very good job here. If LE had done a thorough job all of this carp wouldn't be going on. It would then be justice for Trayvon and GZ. You have only LE to thank for everything that has happened since the killing.

Why do you assume that Trayvon wasn't carrying an ID? The police report didn't list everything he had in his pockets.

Isabelle
04-06-2012, 11:34 AM
They might have gotten his Miami info from his cell provider.

How do we know they were NOT going to go and speak with his mother in Miami? They would not call her to notify her of her sons death, they would send an officer. But I bet they wanted to make sure it was him before they did that.

The other side to that is that we do not know that LE was in communication with the office in Miami and trying to contact the mother, do we?

JeannaT
04-06-2012, 11:35 AM
For all the bashing the media has taken, I believe that on the whole it has done a good job. It's an important story and I'm glad it's getting national attention.

They have, very recently, come around to trying to be objective.

The piece with CNN's tech editor guy showing the process of enhancing the quality of the videotape, and the obvious and serious injuries to the back of GZ's head was pretty much a "mea culpa" for the way the story had been reported by them initially. A whuups, without tacitly admitting they were now changing their coverage to perhaps include the facts.

The Sims quality cartoon reenactment (by the Sun Sentinel I believe) showing that enormous blonde fellow on steroids shooting the little Black child was truly an outrage of yellow journalism. Whoever created that garbage hopefully has lost their job. But yes, recently, mainstream media seems to be making room in their coverage for the actual facts of the case.

Isabelle
04-06-2012, 11:35 AM
Why do you assume that Trayvon wasn't carrying an ID? The police report didn't list everything he had in his pockets.

Sorry, I wasn't assuming TM didn't have a license or ID, my question was if TM did not have a license or ID, how would LE have had his home address in Miami the night of the incident? TM certainly couldn't tell LE where he lived.

Kimberlyd125
04-06-2012, 11:36 AM
City of Sanford prepares for response to George Zimmerman decision
Zimmerman shot, killed Trayvon Martin in February
Published On: Apr 05 2012 06:11:38 PM EDT Updated On: Apr 05 2012 08:08:06 PM EDT
SANFORD, Fla. - The city of Sanford is preparing for the outcome of the special prosecutor's decision about George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watchman who shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin but has not been charged.

Sanford Mayor Jeff Triplett said on Thursday that the city's emergency management team has met regularly with the U.S Department of Justice to construct a plan. Officials said extra police officers and fire department officials are on standby. Neighboring agencies have also been asked to assist, if needed.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/City-of-Sanford-prepares-for-response-to-George-Zimmerman-decision/-/1637132/10276020/-/xeilns/-/index.html





Hmmmm, wonder if that's enough to garner 'hate'....since the attorneys who haven't even met GZ face to face are admitting this...could it go against them?

I still don't believe those were the words whispered...I believe it was a racial slur...but the defining moment will be what this investigation from ACory and DOJ prove...that will be the bottom line...

The wording in that article leads me to believe that there will be no arrest and they are preparing to riots and such when that decision is announced.

JMO

Isabelle
04-06-2012, 11:37 AM
OT $130 million in Coca-Cola stock found in a garage!

Isabelle
04-06-2012, 11:39 AM
The wording in that article leads me to believe that there will be no arrest and they are preparing to riots and such when that decision is announced.

JMO

They are preparing for anything, including the threats made in a letter sent to NAACP, should GZ not be arrested.

TonyGatto
04-06-2012, 11:39 AM
Why do you assume that Trayvon wasn't carrying an ID? The police report didn't list everything he had in his pockets.

His having id on him would make the most sense. Don't think the cell company would give out that info without a court order. So if he actually had id on him -- that would mean that the whole story about him being tagged as john doe was wrong.

Bumping up the article that started this discussion:

It wasn’t until Trayvon’s father, Tracy Martin, called to file a missing-persons report on Feb. 27 that police went to his fiancee’s house with pictures of his son’s dead body. News reports have said that Trayvon’s body was tagged as a John Doe. But the “Partial Report Only” that was completed at 3:07 a.m. on Feb. 27 lists Trayvon’s full name, city of birth, address and phone number. How did police get that information? Was Trayvon carrying identification? Did police try to contact that home number?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/the-killing-of-trayvon-martin-more-questions/2011/03/04/gIQALETDeS_blog.html

marlame
04-06-2012, 11:40 AM
Sorry, I wasn't assuming TM didn't have a license or ID, my question was if TM did not have a license or ID, how would LE have had his home address in Miami the night of the incident? TM certainly couldn't tell LE where he lived.

IIRC...Trayvon's father called LE the next morning to report him missing. That is how they discovered who he was.

daisy7
04-06-2012, 11:41 AM
They might have gotten his Miami info from his cell provider.

How do we know they were NOT going to go and speak with his mother in Miami? They would not call her to notify her of her sons death, they would send an officer. But I bet they wanted to make sure it was him before they did that.

If would be very disappointed in LE if they used the info from his cell phone, student ID or DL to positively ID Trayvon enough to list his name on the police report. It is incorrect that LE waits to contact families of deceased persons unless that person is identified, as usually it is info from the family that helps to make sure they are positively identified.

LiveLaughLuv
04-06-2012, 11:42 AM
I still have a problem with the injury to the head of GZ...it's too far toward the crown to have been bashed repeatedly into the concrete as he alleges..I believe it's being embellished to justify the meet force with force area of that law.I still don't see how fists to a loaded weapon meets force with force...Which is why GZ's camp is stateing his head was bashed on the concrete which made GZ in fear of his life...all fodder for me...it's doesn't appear to be truthful or credible..it's too high up on the head..it should be a few inches above the nape of the head...

What also speaks loudly for me is that detective who wanted manslaughter charges and the SA who nixed it..:moo:

waltzingmatilda
04-06-2012, 11:43 AM
The wording in that article leads me to believe that there will be no arrest and they are preparing to riots and such when that decision is announced.

JMO

I inferred the same belief Kimberly125.

MOO

LiveLaughLuv
04-06-2012, 11:44 AM
I think the difference here is that Trayvon was in trouble for three things in the past:

1) writing obscene graffiti on the wall (my DD's 5th grade class is having the same problem in the boys' room right now)
2) an empty packet with marijuana residue (not a good sign but not illegal either)
3) jewelry that could not be matched to any reported theft and a screwdriver "that they felt could be used as a burglary tool."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-investigated-trayvon-martin-jewelry-16015168#.T38B8I6Q2KM

None of those things has any bearing on the night of 2/26 because even GZ has not said that Trayvon was:

1) writing on anything or vandalizing anything
2) smoking pot or anything else
3) breaking into a house, trying doorknobs, checking windows, or anything else to indicate that he was planning to rob someone. He was "looking around." That's all. I assume GZ was also "looking around" since he saw TM.

Also, TM was not found with a weapon, jewelry or anything else that had been stolen, graffiti tools, or so much as a bobby pin to break in somewhere.


OTOH:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/30/trayvon-martin-case-george-zimmerman_n_1392591.html

GZ has a history of violent acts, especially over people he seems to feel some authority over, like the woman at the party where he was the bouncer, or his ex. For example:






In addition, he seems to have some trouble accepting someone else's authority over him, like a police dispatcher (no, I understand it's not illegal to ignore their advice, but it's also not smart.)



And then there is the history of making a BFD out of nothing and calling police. Not to mention following the person and creating a more dangerous situation than the one he initially called about.



So when people bring up Trayvon's "history" it does reek of blaming the victim. When people bring up GZ's history it is absolutely relevant to what might have happened here. I believe that GZ called police and made a BFD out of nothing, as he had in the past; followed Trayvon, as he had others in the past; ignored the dispatcher's advice; and assaulted Trayvon as he had others in the past.

When you add in that the lead detective on the scene didn't believe GZ's story, when you add in that the funeral director said Trayvon's body showed no sign of a fight or scuffle, when you add in the lack of emergency medical treatment for GZ and the video where he appears to be just fine...it seems obvious to me that this is at least enough reason to investigate and possibly go to trial.

I am not being the judge, jury and executioner for GZ. I am not saying he is guilty (although I think that is most likely). I am saying there needs to be an investigation. I think someone needs to take this seriously. And I don't think anyone did until people started protesting and sharing on social media and making a fuss. While I agree that GZ shouldn't be arrested b/c of the outcry, I also don't think it should have taken this kind of outcry to prompt an investigation. It warranted one all by itself.

I also have to say that it makes me crazy that a 19 yo I know was taken into police custody and held in the jail over a fake ID at a bar longer than GZ was the night he admittedly shot an unarmed teenager. The city of Sanford has no one to blame for this except themselves. If they had arrested GZ that night, investigated, and then released him saying it appeared he acted in self-defense, I don't think anyone would have ever heard of either GZ or TM.

Just my :twocents:

great post

tehcloser
04-06-2012, 11:44 AM
I inferred the same belief Kimberly125.

MOO

So did I but then GZ has hired attorneys and they are setting up the defense fund so IDK. :banghead:

marlame
04-06-2012, 11:45 AM
They have, very recently, come around to trying to be objective.

The piece with CNN's tech editor guy showing the process of enhancing the quality of the videotape, and the obvious and serious injuries to the back of GZ's head was pretty much a "mea culpa" for the way the story had been reported by them initially. A whuups, without tacitly admitting they were now changing their coverage to perhaps include the facts.

The Sims quality cartoon reenactment (by the Sun Sentinel I believe) showing that enormous blonde fellow on steroids shooting the little Black child was truly an outrage of yellow journalism. Whoever created that garbage hopefully has lost their job. But yes, recently, mainstream media seems to be making room in their coverage for the actual facts of the case.

To be fair...the injuries were not obvious (it took technical enhancement to see them) and we have yet to see proof that they were "serious" injuries.

JMHO~

Velouria
04-06-2012, 11:45 AM
They have, very recently, come around to trying to be objective.

The piece with CNN's tech editor guy showing the process of enhancing the quality of the videotape, and the obvious and serious injuries to the back of GZ's head was pretty much a "mea culpa" for the way the story had been reported by them initially. A whuups, without tacitly admitting they were now changing their coverage to perhaps include the facts.

The Sims quality cartoon reenactment (by the Sun Sentinel I believe) showing that enormous blonde fellow on steroids shooting the little Black child was truly an outrage of yellow journalism. Whoever created that garbage hopefully has lost their job. But yes, recently, mainstream media seems to be making room in their coverage for the actual facts of the case.

BBM

Not serious to all of us, I'm afraid. :rolleyes: GZ does appear to have some sort of abrasion or laceration to the top of his head, but the extent and seriousness of his injuries is yet to be determined. Neither the EMT's report nor the records from his personal physician have been released.

LiveLaughLuv
04-06-2012, 11:46 AM
The wording in that article leads me to believe that there will be no arrest and they are preparing to riots and such when that decision is announced.

JMO

or a riot if GZ is arrested....:what:

Footwarrior
04-06-2012, 11:46 AM
His having id on him would make the most sense. Don't think the cell company would give out that info without a court order. So if he actually had id on him -- that would mean that the whole story about him being tagged as john doe was wrong.

It might just have been standard practice at the morgue. Trayvon's identity had not yet been confirmed, so they tag him as John Doe until they are certain.

raeann
04-06-2012, 11:48 AM
The wording in that article leads me to believe that there will be no arrest and they are preparing to riots and such when that decision is announced.

JMO

On the other hand....it leads one to believe that they are talking about the extra security that will be needed when GZ comes to "turn himself in peacefully" and when he is arraigned on charges, and when there is a bond hearing, and when the trial is in session......

Adrienne37
04-06-2012, 11:49 AM
Zimmerman family asks for donations...

The man who shot Trayvon Martin has been in hiding since the story made national news. Now, George Zimmerman’s family is setting up a website, www.zimmermandefense.com , to raise money for “their living expenses and for his defense,” the family’s attorneys said in a statement Friday. Zimmerman has said that his shooting of the unarmed 17-year-old Martin was in self-defense, and the neighborhood watch captain has yet to be charged with a crime. The website was not live as of Friday morning.


<modsnip>

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/George-Zimmerman-Getting-Website-for-Defense-in-Trayvon-Martin-Shooting-146418425.html

TonyGatto
04-06-2012, 11:50 AM
It might just have been standard practice at the morgue. Trayvon's identity had not yet been confirmed, so they tag him as John Doe until they are certain.

Good point. But I think this whole John Doe his body was left in the morgue for three days and his family wasn't allowed to view the body is more an Internet meme than anything else. Family attorneys, I would think, would be all over it, if that were the case. Anybody know when the wake was held, the funeral?

Kimberlyd125
04-06-2012, 11:50 AM
or a riot if GZ is arrested....:what:

Has there been any mention of possible riots if he is arrested?

Who will riot?

I've seen no marches or organized demonstrations in support of GZ.

marlame
04-06-2012, 11:51 AM
I still have a problem with the injury to the head of GZ...it's too far toward the crown to have been bashed repeatedly into the concrete as he alleges..I believe it's being embellished to justify the meet force with force area of that law.I still don't see how fists to a loaded weapon meets force with force...Which is why GZ's camp is stateing his head was bashed on the concrete which made GZ in fear of his life...all fodder for me...it's doesn't appear to be truthful or credible..it's too high up on the head..it should be a few inches above the nape of the head...

What also speaks loudly for me is that detective who wanted manslaughter charges and the SA who nixed it..:moo:

I agree...this has bugged me too. My first thought when I saw the enhanced images was...Did GZ wack himself with the butt of his gun? :waitasec:

JMHO~

JeannaT
04-06-2012, 11:52 AM
The wording in that article leads me to believe that there will be no arrest and they are preparing to riots and such when that decision is announced.

JMO

I agree, it does sound like that.

Kimberlyd125
04-06-2012, 11:52 AM
Oh well, I still think the wording gives a hint GZ will not be arrested.

It's just my opinion.

LiveLaughLuv
04-06-2012, 11:53 AM
Has there been any mention of possible riots if he is arrested?

Who will riot?

I've seen no marches or organized demonstrations in support of GZ.

I posted upthread where Mayor Triplett is preparing for the worst but hope for the best...

csziggy
04-06-2012, 11:53 AM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/06/us-usa-crime-martin-nbc-idUSBRE83502B20120406

NBC News declined to comment on Thursday. The network said on Tuesday it would not release names of the employees involved. It has apologized for the incident.

Why not release names and show pictures of people that try to cause trouble.

Maybe there was no intent to cause trouble. Maybe the employees were told to get a clip of xx number of seconds to be used for broadcast and cut one to that length with the essential information, not realizing how that could distort the overall impression of what GZ said?

I can think of any number of times I have seen and heard edited video or audio clips on the news that did not have the explosive effect this one did, but that did subtly alter the meaning from the original uncut clips.

It's all in the soundbite, these days and too often the eventual impact is lost.

IMO, JMO, etc.

Footwarrior
04-06-2012, 11:54 AM
I still have a problem with the injury to the head of GZ...it's too far toward the crown to have been bashed repeatedly into the concrete as he alleges..I believe it's being embellished to justify the meet force with force area of that law.I still don't see how fists to a loaded weapon meets force with force...Which is why GZ's camp is stateing his head was bashed on the concrete which made GZ in fear of his life...all fodder for me...it's doesn't appear to be truthful or credible..it's too high up on the head..it should be a few inches above the nape of the head...

What also speaks loudly for me is that detective who wanted manslaughter charges and the SA who nixed it..:moo:

Was George's injury a result of trying to tackle Trayvon? Putting his bouncer skills to use making sure that Trayvon didn't get away like all the other "suspicious" young, black, male pedestrians that George had reported to the police.

JeannaT
04-06-2012, 11:54 AM
BBM

Not serious to all of us, I'm afraid. :rolleyes: GZ does appear to have some sort of abrasion or laceration to the top of his head, but the extent and seriousness of his injuries is yet to be determined. Neither the EMT's report nor the records from his personal physician have been released.

You may not have watched the enhanced video that CNN posted.

rbrnmw2
04-06-2012, 11:55 AM
http://orlandoweekly.com/news/trayvon-martin-case-is-a-black-eye-for-sanford-1.1295169

Thanks to whoever posted this link on the last thread! Very insightful info on the climate there in Sanford. IMO, if there was ever a govt. agency that needs cultural diversity training it would be Sanford PD.

I am saying a prayer for truth and justice in this case and also for peace in Sanford, regardless of the outcome.

IMO, it sounds like GZ has two sides to his personality like my ex. He projected a good image to his friends and co-workers but wasn't really close to any of them but he had a violent, criminal side which he kept hidden for the most part. And his dad always 'saved' him when he got into trouble. I tried to tell people, called 911 when he beat me up, called the domestic violence center and had a few close friends who believed me and helped me to get out of there. It was only after we had been divorced a few years that his evil ways finally caught up with him and he was imprisoned and folks finally realized that I wasn't just blowing hot air about the things he did. Jesse jackson's rainbow coalition even filed suit against his business, which was licensed by the FCC, for racism and not hiring enough minorities. He was a gifted liar.

IDK I guess the similarities I see between the two is why I question GZ's camps version of events. Plus I am older and wiser now, lol! Sorry for the personal story but I needed to get that off my chest.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-boyce-watkins/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_b_1393761.html

MOO

wm

I am still going through that I have some of my own family believe him over me I just don't have the health or financial resources to leave. The physical abuse stopped years ago but the emotional abuse is bad at times. I am glad you got out.

Sent from my Huawei U8800-51 using Tapatalk

tehcloser
04-06-2012, 11:57 AM
You may not have watched the enhanced video that CNN posted.

There is the problem I have. If it had to be "enhanced" to be seen...it wasn't very bad to start with. imooooooooo.

waltzingmatilda
04-06-2012, 11:57 AM
Zimmerman family asks for donations...

The man who shot Trayvon Martin has been in hiding since the story made national news. Now, George Zimmerman’s family is setting up a website, www.zimmermandefense.com , to raise money for “their living expenses and for his defense,” the family’s attorneys said in a statement Friday. Zimmerman has said that his shooting of the unarmed 17-year-old Martin was in self-defense, and the neighborhood watch captain has yet to be charged with a crime. The website was not live as of Friday morning.
<modsnip>

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/George-Zimmerman-Getting-Website-for-Defense-in-Trayvon-Martin-Shooting-146418425.html

Good! I am sure GZ's family is suffering financially in this mess as well as Trayvon's family is. I empathize with the plight of both families regardless of my opinion wrt the investigation.

mpo

wm

JeannaT
04-06-2012, 11:58 AM
There is the problem I have. If it had to be "enhanced" to be seen...it wasn't very bad to start with. imooooooooo.

The video was very grainy. What they ended up with, in the enhancement, IMHO, is what it would have looked like if you were standing behind him looking at it in person with your eyes. I don't believe the enhancement was intended to make the injuries appear worse, but rather appear correct.

tehcloser
04-06-2012, 12:00 PM
The video was very grainy. What they ended up with, in the enhancement, IMHO, is what it would have looked like if you were standing behind him looking at it in person with your eyes. I don't believe the enhancement was intended to make the injuries appear worse, but rather appear correct.

I saw the video. In my opinion it was not all that grainy.

marlame
04-06-2012, 12:03 PM
The video was very grainy. What they ended up with, in the enhancement, IMHO, is what it would have looked like if you were standing behind him looking at it in person with your eyes. I don't believe the enhancement was intended to make the injuries appear worse, but rather appear correct.

BBM...The grainy video did NOT make the injuries "obvious". I just wish they would have tried to enhance them PRIOR to releasing them. :twocents:

JMHO~

Velouria
04-06-2012, 12:03 PM
You may not have watched the enhanced video that CNN posted.

Oh no, I watched it alright. :)

csziggy
04-06-2012, 12:05 PM
So it does seem fishy unless LE added the name when he was identified and before they released the reports. If the reports are not signed they are just reports on a computer and we all know the identity would have had to been added once he was identified. They would not keep him listed as John Doe. jmo

The reports online at the City of Sanford web site were "printed" on 03/06/2012, well after Trayvon was identified. I say "printed" because the version online is in PDF format, but they could have their software set up to "print" to PDF. I do that for my genealogical pages and have the software set up to print the date saved, the website it is from, and the name of the page from which it was printed.

I believe that although those reports are labeled "initial report" they have alterations from days after the night of the killing. Maybe their system is not set up to preserve the various versions as the reports are updated, though nearly every software out these days is capable of doing that. Or maybe the Sanford Police Department does not want the true original information in the reports to come out and so only released altered reports as the initial ones.

IMO, JMO, etc.

CathyinTexas
04-06-2012, 12:05 PM
http://orlandoweekly.com/news/trayvon-martin-case-is-a-black-eye-for-sanford-1.1295169

“They put these black boys in jail on all these bogus charges, and it's just not true. … There is so much corruption in the police department, they as crooked as a barrel of fishhooks. … I pray every night for the truth.”

This is one grandmother's opinion, and I don't have any reason to doubt her after what we have seen in this case. If is true, I hope those individuals who are guilty of criminal conduct will be prosecuted.

Isabelle
04-06-2012, 12:10 PM
Coca-Cola has withdrawn from the group that supports the stand your ground law!

Concerned Papa
04-06-2012, 12:12 PM
The video was very grainy. What they ended up with, in the enhancement, IMHO, is what it would have looked like if you were standing behind him looking at it in person with your eyes. I don't believe the enhancement was intended to make the injuries appear worse, but rather appear correct.

I don't think any level of "enhancement" to that video will ever allow it rise to the level of acceptance with a jury that the UNENHANCED image of Tracy Martin's son will:


When Tracy Martin greeted the police that morning, a plainclothes detective asked him to describe his son. "He asked me what he last had on. He asked me if I had any recent pictures," Martin said.

"I showed him a recent picture in the camera and he shook his head and said, 'OK, let me go to my car and get something.'" The detective returned with a folder.

It was drizzling, and he asked Martin if they could go inside. When they were seated he pulled out a photo. It was Trayvon, dead at the scene - his eyes rolled back, a tear on his cheek, saliva coming from his mouth.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403

What a horrible, horrible way to realize the fate of your child.

Isabelle
04-06-2012, 12:13 PM
Has there been any mention of possible riots if he is arrested?

Who will riot?

I've seen no marches or organized demonstrations in support of GZ.

A letter making threats of a very dangerous nature was sent to NAACP telling what is planned if GZ is arrested.

csziggy
04-06-2012, 12:14 PM
What about a driver's license fingerprint/thumbprint on file if Trayvon has his license?
Florida does not take prints for driver's license. I've had Florida driver's licenses since 1968 and was never printed for one. There are some requirements for fingerprints for some commercial operators and dealers, but not for a general driver's license.


The following tests are given at the driver license offices and may or may not be required for the license or identification card you are seeking. The testing chart located in this information will help you determine the test(s) you will be required to complete.

Hearing - Drivers applying for a license who are deaf, or cannot hear conversation spoken in a normal tone of voice, are restricted to driving with an outside rearview mirror which should be mounted on the left side of the vehicle, or wearing of a hearing aid.
Vision - Vision testing, using an eye machine located on the counter, is conducted in all driver license offices. Visual acuity readings worse than 20/40 are referred to an eye specialist. Color blindness will not cause any special condition for licensing.
Road Signs - consists of 20 questions regarding road signs, with multiple choice answers.
Road Rules - consists of 20 questions regarding traffic laws and safety, with multiple choice answers.
Driving Test - You must provide a vehicle for the driving test. The vehicle must have a valid tag, proof of insurance, and pass a vehicle inspection. During the driving test, the examiner will observe your ability to control the vehicle and how well you obey traffic laws.
http://www.flhsmv.gov/ddl/geninfo.html

IMO, JMO, unless a link is provided.

Isabelle
04-06-2012, 12:14 PM
I don't think any level of "enhancement" to that video will ever allow it rise to the level of acceptance with a jury that the UNENHANCED image of Tracy Martin's son will:



What a horrible, horrible way to realize the fate of your child.

Any way is horrible and so very painful for so very long - seems like an eternity.

JeannaT
04-06-2012, 12:14 PM
Coca-Cola has withdrawn from the group that supports the stand your ground law!

It's a little surprising they supported it in the first place.

Dr.Fessel
04-06-2012, 12:14 PM
How did Zimmerman know Trayvon was in his late teens.

It was dark, raining, the kid was 6'3. What clues allowed Zimmerman to guess his age so close?

Adrienne37
04-06-2012, 12:16 PM
Coca-Cola has withdrawn from the group that supports the stand your ground law!

Along with Pepsi and several other major corporations.



~jmo~

Elley Mae
04-06-2012, 12:16 PM
The edit was rather trivial. It gave the impression that George Zimmerman reported the suspect was black without being explicitly asked, but there isn't anything really wrong with him doing so. He had been asked to describe the suspect.

The uproar was created by the right wing noise machine. The same pundits that are always claiming that the mainstream media is not to be trusted. Pundits who routinely report complete fabrications on their shows.

It's a distraction from the real issue. Did George Zimmerman witness Martin doing anything a rational person would see as suspicious?

Editing out the part of the dispatch asking GZ whether the suspect is white black or hispanic is not trivial in my book. jmo

JeannaT
04-06-2012, 12:18 PM
Editing out the part of the dispatch asking GZ whether the suspect is white black or hispanic is not trivial in my book. jmo

It's very hard to imagine any other reason for doing that, than to try to advance an incorrect perception that GZ is racist. Responsible editing usually eliminates long portions of silence, or things that are completely irrelevant, or need to be kept confidential.

Adrienne37
04-06-2012, 12:18 PM
Well, this certainly takes the cake. Unbelievable.

"Shaken Baby Syndrome" used in defense of Trayvon Martin's killer

SANFORD, Florida (Reuters) - "Shaken Baby Syndrome" was cited on Friday in the defense of George Zimmerman, the Sanford, Florida, man who shot and killed unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin, in a case that has sparked a widespread public outcry.

Hal Uhrig, a lawyer and former Gainesville, Florida, police officer who recently joined Zimmerman's defense team, cited in a TV interview the brain damage that can seriously injure or kill an infant.

http://whtc.com/news/articles/2012/apr/06/shaken-baby-syndrome-used-in-defense-of-trayvon-martins-killer/

Beyond Belief
04-06-2012, 12:18 PM
I don't think any level of "enhancement" to that video will ever allow it rise to the level of acceptance with a jury that the UNENHANCED image of Tracy Martin's son will:



What a horrible, horrible way to realize the fate of your child.
That is more than horrible!:banghead:

ynotdivein
04-06-2012, 12:20 PM
This is not a fishing excursion. Don't drop bait, and don't take any bait.

This post lands at random.

marlame
04-06-2012, 12:22 PM
How did Zimmerman know Trayvon was in his late teens.

It was dark, raining, the kid was 6'3. What clues allowed Zimmerman to guess his age so close?

Could a neighbor have tipped him off? :confused: Maybe someone called NWC to report a suspicious BLACK kid in neighborhood again? :waitasec:

JMHO~

Velouria
04-06-2012, 12:25 PM
Well, this certainly takes the cake. Unbelievable.

"Shaken Baby Syndrome" used in defense of Trayvon Martin's killer

SANFORD, Florida (Reuters) - "Shaken Baby Syndrome" was cited on Friday in the defense of George Zimmerman, the Sanford, Florida, man who shot and killed unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin, in a case that has sparked a widespread public outcry.

Hal Uhrig, a lawyer and former Gainesville, Florida, police officer who recently joined Zimmerman's defense team, cited in a TV interview the brain damage that can seriously injure or kill an infant.

http://whtc.com/news/articles/2012/apr/06/shaken-baby-syndrome-used-in-defense-of-trayvon-martins-killer/

OMG, I don't know whether to :floorlaugh: or :what:

So, he claims his client shot TM in order to prevent Shaken Baby Syndrome??

WHY OH WHY then, would his client refuse transport to a hospital where his life-threatening head trauma could be properly diagnosed and treated by skilled medical professionals?!

I can say I'm a bird, but that don't mean I can fly.

francie
04-06-2012, 12:25 PM
How did Zimmerman know Trayvon was in his late teens.

It was dark, raining, the kid was 6'3. What clues allowed Zimmerman to guess his age so close?

The police report said Trayvon was 6'0" not 6'3". :)

ETA: Trayvon reportedly didn't have his hood up on his head at first so Zimmerman could've had a good view of him to guess his age?

Dr.Fessel
04-06-2012, 12:25 PM
Well, this certainly takes the cake. Unbelievable.

"Shaken Baby Syndrome" used in defense of Trayvon Martin's killer

SANFORD, Florida (Reuters) - "Shaken Baby Syndrome" was cited on Friday in the defense of George Zimmerman, the Sanford, Florida, man who shot and killed unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin, in a case that has sparked a widespread public outcry.

Hal Uhrig, a lawyer and former Gainesville, Florida, police officer who recently joined Zimmerman's defense team, cited in a TV interview the brain damage that can seriously injure or kill an infant.

http://whtc.com/news/articles/2012/apr/06/shaken-baby-syndrome-used-in-defense-of-trayvon-martins-killer/

Rut Roh, They seem to be distancing themselves from the concrete. LOL

"We're familiar with the Shaken Baby Syndrome," said Uhrig on the CBS This Morning program. "You shake a baby, the brain shakes around inside the skull. You can die when someone's pounding your head into the ground."



http://whtc.com/news/articles/2012/apr/06/shaken-baby-syndrome-used-in-defense-of-trayvon-martins-killer/

katydid23
04-06-2012, 12:26 PM
If would be very disappointed in LE if they used the info from his cell phone, student ID or DL to positively ID Trayvon enough to list his name on the police report. It is incorrect that LE waits to contact families of deceased persons unless that person is identified, as usually it is info from the family that helps to make sure they are positively identified.

bbm

What I meant specifically was in reference to LE CALLING his mother in Miami at 3 am. I was saying that they would not call her at 3 am to notify her that a body was found, imo.
They would send an officer in the morning in person, imo.

Dr.Fessel
04-06-2012, 12:30 PM
WOW JUST WOW.


The office of the State Attorney, 4th Judicial Circuit, State Attorney Angela Corey has requested that the City of Sanford remove all reports, videos and audio pertaining to the Martin/Zimmerman case from the website. Their office has provided legal justification for the action and they believe further access to the information will have an adverse effect on their efforts to come to a resolution to this investigation.


http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

Dr.Fessel
04-06-2012, 12:30 PM
Oh and GET THIS!

They have removed the police report too!!!

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

marlame
04-06-2012, 12:31 PM
Rut Roh, They seem to be distancing themselves from the concrete. LOL

"We're familiar with the Shaken Baby Syndrome," said Uhrig on the CBS This Morning program. "You shake a baby, the brain shakes around inside the skull. You can die when someone's pounding your head into the ground."



http://whtc.com/news/articles/2012/apr/06/shaken-baby-syndrome-used-in-defense-of-trayvon-martins-killer/

Either that OR in the event of NO arrest, they are "setting the stage" for a Civil claim for the "injuries" GZ suffered while he was "defending" himself??? Grrrr.... :banghead:

frenchvixen
04-06-2012, 12:33 PM
Good point. But I think this whole John Doe his body was left in the morgue for three days and his family wasn't allowed to view the body is more an Internet meme than anything else. Family attorneys, I would think, would be all over it, if that were the case. Anybody know when the wake was held, the funeral?

I had found a photo of his funeral card (you know the photo that is given at the funeral with the person's photo and date of birth and death). If you google it under images you will see it.

Gin
04-06-2012, 12:34 PM
Well, this certainly takes the cake. Unbelievable.

"Shaken Baby Syndrome" used in defense of Trayvon Martin's killer

SANFORD, Florida (Reuters) - "Shaken Baby Syndrome" was cited on Friday in the defense of George Zimmerman, the Sanford, Florida, man who shot and killed unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin, in a case that has sparked a widespread public outcry.

Hal Uhrig, a lawyer and former Gainesville, Florida, police officer who recently joined Zimmerman's defense team, cited in a TV interview the brain damage that can seriously injure or kill an infant.

http://whtc.com/news/articles/2012/apr/06/shaken-baby-syndrome-used-in-defense-of-trayvon-martins-killer/

IMO, they are running defense options up a flagpole and seeing how they fly.
It is cheaper to just mention it in a TV interview than to pay a focus group.

JMO, I don't see much in common with between a 2 month old infant and a 28yo man.
Most 28yo's are able to control their head, hold their head up, and move it away. They can also roll over, stand, walk, run, and they are generally kinda hard to pick up and shake.

Footwarrior
04-06-2012, 12:35 PM
Editing out the part of the dispatch asking GZ whether the suspect is white black or hispanic is not trivial in my book. jmo

<modsnip>

I am about as far as you can get from a racist, but would probably mention a race or skin color when asked for a description. The problem I have with George's phone call isn't that he described Trayvon as looking black, but that he didn't have much of a reason for calling the police. The real telling part is when George says "these (expletive deleted) always get away". What was George's reason for thinking Trayvon was an (expletive deleted)?

Elley Mae
04-06-2012, 12:36 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/04/trayvon-martin-shooter-zimmermans-911-audio-tapes/

Corey has said that there is no guarantee that the case will even go before a grand jury and sources within her office tell ABC News that an arrest, if it does occur, will not occur before next week.

JeannaT
04-06-2012, 12:38 PM
Oh and GET THIS!

They have removed the police report too!!!

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

Mr. Bonaparte's open letter to the public is VERY well written, IMHO, and perfectly lays out the city's position.

It's seeming clearer and clearer - to me - that Zimmerman will never be arrested and charged, and that that's the right decision.

And interesting that Bonaparte goes so far as to say that Tracy Martin "misconstrued" the conversation with LE where Martin states LE characterized Zimmerman as "squeaky clean". Hm. Pretty forceful.

ynotdivein
04-06-2012, 12:38 PM
Please be sure to add these links in the media thread. It's an interesting newsday already!

:tyou:

vlpate
04-06-2012, 12:42 PM
I also do not think GZ was ever appointed as a courtesy officer by the HOA. At the very least owners and residents would have been aware of who he was and what his function was in order for them to cooperate. The only information circulated was by LE that if residents had questions about the NWP they could contact GZ. That was not giving GZ the authority for anything other than administrative contacts. GZ, however, obviously took it to the max using that as an excuse to promote himself to a position of authority.

If RZ knew his son had this arrangement he would have certainly mentioned it by now. It appears GZ has had this obsession for a long time. Obviously if GZ felt so unsafe in this community, and he was only leasing his home, he should have moved out to a safer community......unless, he enjoyed his role as self-appointed watchman. jmo
I don't disagree with you LC - as far as the NWP, he volunteered for the job, but that doesn't mean the management company may have also had an arrangement with him - management would take care of the rented units for the bank, HOA would be over the owned units.

I tend to agree with you after looking at the calls - there were only about 6 per year - not nearly what one would expect of a non-commissioned courtesy officer. The thing that bothers me though, his calls escalated once he appointed himself NWB captain....and made me re-think my position that he may have been CO at his previous apartments. The apartments from 2005 are over 500 units, no way was he a non-commissioned CO there with so few calls to LE. A property that size would have law enforcement patrol anyway - if for no other reason than to have their marked cars visible.

However - if GZ made friends with the cops that were patrol officers on the communities, he might see himself as helping them out, getting in good in case he needed references if and when he applied himself. Patrol officers who work as CO's on properties really don't do much at all - they're just a presence for the most part.

I do think he wanted to be a cop and I don't think he should have been issued a gun - what happened with Trayvon was bound to happen. IMO

Adrienne37
04-06-2012, 12:43 PM
Oh and GET THIS!

They have removed the police report too!!!

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

Was anyone able to grab these before they disappeared?

RANCH
04-06-2012, 12:43 PM
Mr. Bonaparte's open letter to the public is VERY well written, IMHO, and perfectly lays out the city's position.

It's seeming clearer and clearer - to me - that Zimmerman will never be arrested and charged, and that that's the right decision.

And interesting that Bonaparte goes so far as to say that Tracy Martin "misconstrued" the conversation with LE where Martin states LE characterized Zimmerman as "squeaky clean". Hm. Pretty forceful.
Here's a link to Mr. Bonaparte's letter.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/86330859/Zimmerman-Martin-Shooting

octobermoon
04-06-2012, 12:46 PM
Oh and GET THIS!

They have removed the police report too!!!

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

Oh boy. Way to start rumors of a cover-up. IMO

(that wasn't directed at you Doc, but at the removal of the information.)

daisy7
04-06-2012, 12:46 PM
WOW JUST WOW.


The office of the State Attorney, 4th Judicial Circuit, State Attorney Angela Corey has requested that the City of Sanford remove all reports, videos and audio pertaining to the Martin/Zimmerman case from the website. Their office has provided legal justification for the action and they believe further access to the information will have an adverse effect on their efforts to come to a resolution to this investigation.


http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

What is the possible reason to retract these things after they have already been out in the public for several weeks?

RANCH
04-06-2012, 12:46 PM
Was anyone able to grab these before they disappeared?

Here's a link to the police report.

http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

Elley Mae
04-06-2012, 12:47 PM
Oh boy. Way to start rumors of a cover-up. IMO

(that wasn't directed at you Doc, but at the removal of the information.)

I was thinking about the Sunshine Law

ohiogirl
04-06-2012, 12:48 PM
If they wanted to keep this info under wraps they should have done this weeks ago. It is all over the internet now. This seems rather bumbling to me. jmo

JeannaT
04-06-2012, 12:49 PM
What is the possible reason to retract these things after they have already been out in the public for several weeks?

To try to quell the appearance that that's the only thing going on in Sanford, IMHO. The rest of the website deals with Easter events, watering guidelines, etc.

Dr.Fessel
04-06-2012, 12:50 PM
Mr. Bonaparte's open letter to the public is VERY well written, IMHO, and perfectly lays out the city's position.

It's seeming clearer and clearer - to me - that Zimmerman will never be arrested and charged, and that that's the right decision.

And interesting that Bonaparte goes so far as to say that Tracy Martin "misconstrued" the conversation with LE where Martin states LE characterized Zimmerman as "squeaky clean". Hm. Pretty forceful.

I agree that is very powerful statement to make defending a police officers word against a grieving fathers word.

But Mr. Bonaparte fails to give a reasonable explanation why a cop would only be repeating a lie told to them by a homicide suspect to a grieving father and not tell him that was a lie and tell him the truth.

Nowhere in that statement does Mr. Bonaparte say the police officer told him the truth about Zimmerman's record. He just claims the officer said well Mr. Zimmerman told us he had a squeaky clean record. Now why in the world would the cop ever tell Mr. Martin that and not tell him it was a lie and Zimmerman did have a record.



Why was George Zimmerman labeled as “squeaky clean” when in fact he has
a prior arrest history?
In one of the initial meetings with the father of the victim the investigator related to
him the account that Mr. Zimmerman provided of the incident. At that time the
investigator said that Mr. Zimmerman portrayed himself to be “squeaky clean”. We
are aware of the background information regarding both individuals involved in this
event. We believe Mr. Martin may have misconstrued this information.



http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

francie
04-06-2012, 12:52 PM
“In 2005, Zimmerman, then 20, was arrested and charged with “resisting officer with violence” and “battery of law enforcement officer,” both of which are third-degree felonies. The charge was reduced to “resisting officer without violence” and then waived when he entered an alcohol education program. Contemporaneous accounts indicate he shoved an officer who was questioning a friend for alleged underage drinking at an Orange County bar.”
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/27/10894561-zimmerman-accused-of-domestic-violence-fighting-with-a-police-officer


This article says George’s felonies for assault on police were dropped in exchange for taking Alcohol Ed classes… I had previously read they were dropped to a misdemeanor and anger management classes, not sure how to find out the actual disposition.

But if it’s true he had felonies dropped for Alcohol Ed, how did he get such a light sentence, especially for assault on a police officer?? The article also says he had a speeding ticket in 2006 that was dropped because the officer failed to appear in court. Hmm, was it a DUI that was made to ‘go away’ like the felonies? Just my opinion of course but I think George has a drinking problem and his father, fmr Judge Zimmerman has been getting him out of legal messes for years. Alcohol abuse would explain his violent behaviors in the past imo and also the paranoid stalking & gunning down of an unarmed black teen, jmo. I also thought his words sounded slow & slurred on the 911 call and I wonder if he was making a liquor run not a milk or grocery run, jmo. All jmo.

daisy7
04-06-2012, 12:53 PM
To try to quell the appearance that that's the only thing going on in Sanford, IMHO. The rest of the website deals with Easter events, watering guidelines, etc.

The State Attorney in charge of the investigation asked for them to be removed. Again, why now and what legal justification do they have to do this?

csziggy
04-06-2012, 12:54 PM
There is the problem I have. If it had to be "enhanced" to be seen...it wasn't very bad to start with. imooooooooo.

I took screen shots from the "enhanced" video that do NOT show the "injuries" apparent on the "enhanced" screen shot used in that CNN story. Those marks on GZ's head just are not there on the video.

Here are the shots I took - edited only to crop the sections of the screen with GZ:
Same angle as the CNN enhanced still shot:
http://www.woodswell.com/images/Trayvon/GZ-GMA-enhanced_2.jpg

Better lighting but different angle. This one also shows GZ's nose, which does not look broken:
http://www.woodswell.com/images/Trayvon/GZ-GMA-enhanced.jpg

Here is the still shot from CNN:
http://www.woodswell.com/images/Trayvon/GVInjury1-1-1.jpg

Even though I did not do any enhancement, at least some hint of those marks on GZ's head would have shown prior to enhancement. The shot from behind would have that mark visible in the middle of the bald spot. The shot from the side would have that mark to the side of GZ's head. There is no indication of either of those spots on the screen shots I took from the video on CNN's website.

IMO, JMO, etc.

octobermoon
04-06-2012, 12:55 PM
O/T Navy jet crashed near a Virginia Beach neighborhood. :(

Prayers to all.

Adrienne37
04-06-2012, 12:56 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/04/trayvon-martin-shooter-zimmermans-911-audio-tapes/

Corey has said that there is no guarantee that the case will even go before a grand jury and sources within her office tell ABC News that an arrest, if it does occur, will not occur before next week.

The only new part in this particular quote is if an arrest occurs, it won't happen before next week. Ms. Corey said right after she got the case and before she opted out of any more interviews that she may or may not utilize the grand jury, that she can choose to charge him herself without the grand jury's assistance.

Previous article...

JACKSONVILLE -- The prosecutor at the center of the national firestorm over whether the man who killed Trayvon Martin should be charged in his death says she’s not likely to need a grand jury to make the decision for her.

More probable, she said, is that she’ll be the one to decide.

“I always lean towards moving forward without needing the grand jury in a case like this,” Angela Corey, the state attorney assigned to the case by Gov. Rick Scott, told The Herald/Times. “I foresee us being able to make a decision, and move on it on our own.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/28/2717866/tough-minded-prosecutor-in-spotlight.html#storylink=misearch#storylink=cpy


~jmo~

JeannaT
04-06-2012, 12:56 PM
I agree that is very powerful statement to make defending a police officers word against a grieving fathers word.

But Mr. Bonaparte fails to give a reasonable explanation why a cop would only be repeating a lie told to them by a homicide suspect to a grieving father and not tell him that was a lie and tell him the truth.

Nowhere in that statement does Mr. Bonaparte say the police officer told him the truth about Zimmerman's record. He just claims the officer said well Mr. Zimmerman told us he had a squeaky clean record. Now why in the world would the cop ever tell Mr. Martin that and not tell him it was a lie and Zimmerman did have a record.



Why was George Zimmerman labeled as “squeaky clean” when in fact he has
a prior arrest history?
In one of the initial meetings with the father of the victim the investigator related to
him the account that Mr. Zimmerman provided of the incident. At that time the
investigator said that Mr. Zimmerman portrayed himself to be “squeaky clean”. We
are aware of the background information regarding both individuals involved in this
event. We believe Mr. Martin may have misconstrued this information.



http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

It seems to me Bonaparte is stating that the officer did not, in fact, tell Tracy Martin that Zimmerman's record was "squeaky clean".

And in all fairness, during that conversation Tracy Martin was most likely in shock. It's not unbelievable that he would misunderstand what the cop said.

Certainly when someone goes into the doc for a stressful consultation they're advised to take a friend - because people getting bad news often completely misunderstand and misremember what is said in the conversation.

csziggy
04-06-2012, 12:58 PM
Oh and GET THIS!

They have removed the police report too!!!

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

I'm glad I downloaded everything! I'd better back it up, too.

Elley Mae
04-06-2012, 12:59 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/06/tagblogsfindlawcom2012-blotter-idUS214913966420120406

Did you know that, on the night of Trayvon Martin's death, Sanford police gave George Zimmerman a voice stress test?

Adrienne37
04-06-2012, 01:00 PM
I'm glad I downloaded everything! I'd better back it up, too.

Thanks csziggy.

tehcloser
04-06-2012, 01:00 PM
George Zimmerman's defense team is growing, suggesting that he's planning for a grand jury indictment and a subsequent criminal trial. Interestingly, his new attorney has begun releasing some previously unknown facts.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/06/tagblogsfindlawcom2012-blotter-idUS214913966420120406


hmmmm.....I think that may be why they want everything removed. GZ's defense team is at work and the state is not gonna play their games.

Dr.Fessel
04-06-2012, 01:01 PM
Was anyone able to grab these before they disappeared?


This is one of the first police reports they released.



http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

fran
04-06-2012, 01:02 PM
It seems to me Bonaparte is stating that the officer did not, in fact, tell Tracy Martin that Zimmerman's record was "squeaky clean".

And in all fairness, during that conversation Tracy Martin was most likely in shock. It's not unbelievable that he would misunderstand what the cop said.

Certainly when someone goes into the doc for a stressful consultation they're advised to take a friend - because people getting bad news often completely misunderstand and misremember what is said in the conversation.


To be honest, when I heard that they told the father the shooter was 'squeaky clean,' I personally thought they meant as far as the events that night went. ie. meaning from what they'd learned to that point, it was a justified shooting.

It's just gone down-hill from there.

JMHO
fran

JeannaT
04-06-2012, 01:04 PM
George Zimmerman's defense team is growing, suggesting that he's planning for a grand jury indictment and a subsequent criminal trial. Interestingly, his new attorney has begun releasing some previously unknown facts.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/06/tagblogsfindlawcom2012-blotter-idUS214913966420120406


hmmmm.....I think that may be why they want everything removed. GZ's defense team is at work and the state is not gonna play their games.

It seems to me pretty clear that Zimmerman's legal team has the documents already.

csziggy
04-06-2012, 01:05 PM
Was anyone able to grab these before they disappeared?
I did not all the individual videos of the SPD security cameras, but I got the calls, the various police reports, and the full video of the SPD security cameras from the Sanford site. Oh, and most if not all the press releases.
:woohoo:

tehcloser
04-06-2012, 01:06 PM
It seems to me pretty clear that Zimmerman's legal team has the documents already.

It does? Or are they going by what GZ is teling them? At any rate, I see this as the hatches getting locked down because there are charges coming down the pike. IMO.

Adrienne37
04-06-2012, 01:06 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/06/tagblogsfindlawcom2012-blotter-idUS214913966420120406

Did you know that, on the night of Trayvon Martin's death, Sanford police gave George Zimmerman a voice stress test?

This was reported early this week.

raeann
04-06-2012, 01:08 PM
George Zimmerman's defense team is growing, suggesting that he's planning for a grand jury indictment and a subsequent criminal trial. Interestingly, his new attorney has begun releasing some previously unknown facts.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/06/tagblogsfindlawcom2012-blotter-idUS214913966420120406


hmmmm.....I think that may be why they want everything removed. GZ's defense team is at work and the state is not gonna play their games.

INTERESTING..... dependability of results of "a voice stress test is no better than flipping a coin"

Adrienne37
04-06-2012, 01:08 PM
It does? Or are they going by what GZ is teling them? At any rate, I see this as the hatches getting locked down because there are charges coming down the pike. IMO.

I do as well teh. I bet if you went and took a nap for the afternoon, we would see movement on the clerk of the court's website right around 5 p.m. The good stuff always happens when you take a nap right?



~jmo~

Dr.Fessel
04-06-2012, 01:08 PM
It seems to me Bonaparte is stating that the officer did not, in fact, tell Tracy Martin that Zimmerman's record was "squeaky clean".

And in all fairness, during that conversation Tracy Martin was most likely in shock. It's not unbelievable that he would misunderstand what the cop said.

Certainly when someone goes into the doc for a stressful consultation they're advised to take a friend - because people getting bad news often completely misunderstand and misremember what is said in the conversation.


At that time the
investigator said that Mr. Zimmerman portrayed himself to be “squeaky clean”.


Now I can't not find anywhere Mr. Bonaparte claims the officer told Mr. Martin that Zimmerman did have a record.

Even if he did just say Mr. Zimmerman says he has a squeaky clean record why wouldn't the officer say "but that is not true we know he has a record"?

Why would the officer just leave it like that?



http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

LiveLaughLuv
04-06-2012, 01:09 PM
I agree...this has bugged me too. My first thought when I saw the enhanced images was...Did GZ wack himself with the butt of his gun? :waitasec:

JMHO~

he could have hit his own head on the outside meters and is using this to justify his actions...I truly doubt his words...

Gin
04-06-2012, 01:09 PM
It seems to me Bonaparte is stating that the officer did not, in fact, tell Tracy Martin that Zimmerman's record was "squeaky clean".

And in all fairness, during that conversation Tracy Martin was most likely in shock. It's not unbelievable that he would misunderstand what the cop said.

Certainly when someone goes into the doc for a stressful consultation they're advised to take a friend - because people getting bad news often completely misunderstand and misremember what is said in the conversation.

Hmmm... JMO, I think Bonaparte has grabbed this opportunity to get his ducks in a row on paper. I'm not impressed. This may have something to do with lawsuits against the city of Sanford that he fears will be filed.

as always, YMMV

francie
04-06-2012, 01:10 PM
The only new part in this particular quote is if an arrest occurs, it won't happen before next week. Ms. Corey said right after she got the case and before she opted out of any more interviews that she may or may not utilize the grand jury, that she can choose to charge him herself without the grand jury's assistance.

Previous article...

JACKSONVILLE -- The prosecutor at the center of the national firestorm over whether the man who killed Trayvon Martin should be charged in his death says she’s not likely to need a grand jury to make the decision for her.

More probable, she said, is that she’ll be the one to decide.

“I always lean towards moving forward without needing the grand jury in a case like this,” Angela Corey, the state attorney assigned to the case by Gov. Rick Scott, told The Herald/Times. “I foresee us being able to make a decision, and move on it on our own.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/28/2717866/tough-minded-prosecutor-in-spotlight.html#storylink=misearch#storylink=cpy

~jmo~

I read that a grand jury is required for a 1st-degree murder charge in Florida... I hope they're given this case & they decide that's one of the charges, I believe George planned to kill Trayvon when he starting following him. JMO.

MarthaM
04-06-2012, 01:10 PM
Going back to the issue of when the PD identified Trayvon, I think that all plays into their acceptance of Zimmerman's story. IMO, they might have checked into Trayvon's cell phone early on and found out he was from Miami. They then might have thought that his not being from the area bolstered Zimmerman's claims about Trayvon's actions while Zimmerman was following him around... somebody from out-of-town loking for trouble. Of course, that's shoddy police work and has no bearing on how wrong Zimmerman was from the get-go and whether he should have been arrested. But I think it might play a part in the PD's willingness to accept Zimmerman's version of what happened.

LiveLaughLuv
04-06-2012, 01:11 PM
Was anyone able to grab these before they disappeared?

I posted it in one of these threads...which whiz by...

JeannaT
04-06-2012, 01:13 PM
It does? Or are they going by what GZ is teling them? At any rate, I see this as the hatches getting locked down because there are charges coming down the pike. IMO.

Well, it seems like we'll know soon enough. It seems Corey will announce the decision next week.

JeannaT
04-06-2012, 01:14 PM
Hmmm... JMO, I think Bonaparte has grabbed this opportunity to get his ducks in a row on paper. I'm not impressed. This may have something to do with lawsuits against the city of Sanford that he fears will be filed.

as always, YMMV

Or riots that they are fearing.

i.b.nora
04-06-2012, 01:15 PM
Mr. Bonaparte's open letter to the public is VERY well written, IMHO, and perfectly lays out the city's position.

It's seeming clearer and clearer - to me - that Zimmerman will never be arrested and charged, and that that's the right decision.

And interesting that Bonaparte goes so far as to say that Tracy Martin "misconstrued" the conversation with LE where Martin states LE characterized Zimmerman as "squeaky clean". Hm. Pretty forceful.
"And interesting that Bonaparte goes so far as to say that Tracy Martin "misconstrued" the conversation with LE where Martin states LE characterized Zimmerman as "squeaky clean"."

Those are the words of Chief Lee, not Norton Bonaparte, Jr.
It was a questionaire to the now former Police Chief. You know, the one that 'temporarily" has stepped down. I don't think it can necessarily be construed as an official position on anything by the City of Sanford.

The PDF is here: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

JeannaT
04-06-2012, 01:18 PM
At that time the
investigator said that Mr. Zimmerman portrayed himself to be “squeaky clean”.


Now I can't not find anywhere Mr. Bonaparte claims the officer told Mr. Martin that Zimmerman did have a record.

Even if he did just say Mr. Zimmerman says he has a squeaky clean record why wouldn't the officer say "but that is not true we know he has a record"?

Why would the officer just leave it like that?



http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

I guess I'm not following your thoughts . . .

It seems to me, that Bonaparte is taking issue with Tracy Martin's reporting than an officer called Zimmerman's record "squeaky clean". As in, no one said that to him.

I'm not sure about someone saying it, and someone else not correcting it.

It seems Bonaparte is saying no one said it.

Why, in the conversation where they inform parents that their minor child is dead, would the cop go on in detail that Zimmerman had been charged but went into a youthful offender program many years ago? I would think that wouldn't come up in an initial conversation about a deceased child.

Elley Mae
04-06-2012, 01:19 PM
This was reported early this week.

I posted it because of the date Fri Apr 6, 2012 1:07am EDT if you have read it thats good maybe others have not.

RANCH
04-06-2012, 01:21 PM
"And interesting that Bonaparte goes so far as to say that Tracy Martin "misconstrued" the conversation with LE where Martin states LE characterized Zimmerman as "squeaky clean"."

Those are the words of Chief Lee, not Norton Bonaparte, Jr.
It was a questionaire to the now former Police Chief. You know, the one that 'temporarily" has stepped down. I don't think it can necessarily be construed as an official position on anything by the City of Sanford.

The PDF is here: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf
BBM
If that was true then why did City Manager Bonaparte put Chief Lee's comments in his official letter?

csziggy
04-06-2012, 01:22 PM
Hmmm... JMO, I think Bonaparte has grabbed this opportunity to get his ducks in a row on paper. I'm not impressed. This may have something to do with lawsuits against the city of Sanford that he fears will be filed.

as always, YMMV

According to the document properties it was created March 20, 2012 at 1:47:40 PM. I downloaded it after 10PM that night.

It was not released as a response to any of the events, news reports, rumors, or claims of the last two weeks of media frenzy.

JMO, IMO, etc.

JeannaT
04-06-2012, 01:23 PM
"And interesting that Bonaparte goes so far as to say that Tracy Martin "misconstrued" the conversation with LE where Martin states LE characterized Zimmerman as "squeaky clean"."

Those are the words of Chief Lee, not Norton Bonaparte, Jr.
It was a questionaire to the now former Police Chief. You know, the one that 'temporarily" has stepped down. I don't think it can necessarily be construed as an official position on anything by the City of Sanford.

The PDF is here: http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

Bonaparte puts it in his open letter, and then ends the letter that he "trusts this information is helpful to you" (the citizens). He's standing by that information in his open letter, even though the questions were initially answered by LE, they were included in his informational piece.

Since Bonaparte is the city manager, and this letter is on the official city website, I think you can infer that this open letter is the position of the City management.

Dr.Fessel
04-06-2012, 01:25 PM
I guess I'm not following your thoughts . . .

It seems to me, that Bonaparte is taking issue with Tracy Martin's reporting than an officer called Zimmerman's record "squeaky clean". As in, no one said that to him.

I'm not sure about someone saying it, and someone else not correcting it.

It seems Bonaparte is saying no one said it.

Why, in the conversation where they inform parents that their minor child is dead, would the cop go on in detail that Zimmerman had been charged but went into a youthful offender program many years ago? I would think that wouldn't come up in an initial conversation about a deceased child.

BBM

In the following statement Bonaparte is saying what the officer said.





In one of the initial meetings with the father of the victim the investigator related to
him the account that Mr. Zimmerman provided of the incident. At that time the
investigator said that Mr. Zimmerman portrayed himself to be “squeaky clean”.



Now to your second question. Zimmerman had a violent arrest record. Why wouldn't the cop tell Mr. Martin that and just leave him with the account of Zimmerman saying he was squeaky clean?

i.b.nora
04-06-2012, 01:29 PM
Bonaparte puts it in his open letter, and then ends the letter that he "trusts this information is helpful to you" (the citizens). He's standing by that information in his open letter, even though the questions were initially answered by LE, they were included in his informational piece.

Since Bonaparte is the city manager, and this letter is on the official city website, I think you can infer that this open letter is the position of the City management.
Would you be so kind as to supply a link to Norton Bonaparte, Jr's. Open Letter, because I dont see it.
All I see is a link to the 'letter' or 'questionaire' that Bonaparte submitted to Chief Lee regarding frequently asked questions about "the recent incident where George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin."

CHICANA
04-06-2012, 01:30 PM
Based on the police report, George kept his gun in its holster, INSIDE his waistband, so I am not sure how it could have been exposed to viewing by Trayvon unless George pulled it out of his holster. IF Trayvon actually saw it. Just thinking.


I don't think TM would have attacked GM if he had seen a gun. If TM did jump GZ, I believe the account that TM saw the gun while TM was on top of him.

vlpate
04-06-2012, 01:31 PM
Identifying deceased persons - don't you have to identify the body at a morgue? The full body, not a horrible picture. Having a hard time getting past LE showing a picture of Trayvon looking that way. Please tell me this is not SOP!

JeannaT
04-06-2012, 01:33 PM
Would you be so kind as to supply a link to Norton Bonaparte, Jr's. Open Letter, because I dont see it.
All I see is a link to the 'letter' or 'questionaire' that Bonaparte submitted to Chief Lee regarding frequently asked questions about "the recent incident where George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin."

It's the first item up on the official City of Sanford Website.

It begins "Dear Citizens". The PDF when you click to read the entire thing begins "Fellow Citizens".

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

CHICANA
04-06-2012, 01:33 PM
I read that a grand jury is required for a 1st-degree murder charge in Florida... I hope they're given this case & they decide that's one of the charges, I believe George planned to kill Trayvon when he starting following him. JMO.

Why ?

Peliman
04-06-2012, 01:34 PM
Has there been any mention of possible riots if he is arrested?

Who will riot?

I've seen no marches or organized demonstrations in support of GZ.

I'll say this, if and when they call in the national guard it's time to go home.

RANCH
04-06-2012, 01:35 PM
BBM

In the following statement Bonaparte is saying what the officer said.





In one of the initial meetings with the father of the victim the investigator related to
him the account that Mr. Zimmerman provided of the incident. At that time the
investigator said that Mr. Zimmerman portrayed himself to be “squeaky clean”.



Now to your second question. Zimmerman had a violent arrest record. Why wouldn't the cop tell Mr. Martin that and just leave him with the account of Zimmerman saying he was squeaky clean?

Maybe the investigator added something like "We have information that this isn't true" and Mr Martin misconstrued this and thought he said "We have information that this is true". Just a guess on my part.

CathyinTexas
04-06-2012, 01:38 PM
By that token TM had an incident in which he had jewlery that wasn't his and a burglary tool...yet that is clearly disregarded when it is relevant to whether he may have been casing homes. That's considered "bashing" though. TM had a criminal background as well, but with no convictions.

The difference is that TM was not arrested or charged so it is nothing more than hearsay or it was found not to be his. GZ, on the other hand, physically assaulted an identified police officer and even said he didn't care who he was. He was arrested, but once again, not charged, so he got out of the punishment of his actions. There is a big difference between their backgrounds, imo.

JeannaT
04-06-2012, 01:44 PM
I'll say this, if and when they call in the national guard it's time to go home.

Um hm. That's always sound advice. ;D

gxm
04-06-2012, 01:45 PM
IMO, they are running defense options up a flagpole and seeing how they fly.
It is cheaper to just mention it in a TV interview than to pay a focus group.

JMO, I don't see much in common with between a 2 month old infant and a 28yo man.
Most 28yo's are able to control their head, hold their head up, and move it away. They can also roll over, stand, walk, run, and they are generally kinda hard to pick up and shake.

I agree that they are trying out defense strategies. But having been attacked in a similar manner as GZ has claimed, I find the description believable. GZ was more evenly matched than I was, but it is hard (impossible for me) to stand, walk, or run when your attacker is on top of you slamming your head into the floor by violently shaking your shoulders (they pick you up at your shoulders and then slam you back down). Because I've been in a similar situation, I find GZ's fear of brain injury to be one of the most believable aspects of his story.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

atthelake
04-06-2012, 01:47 PM
Thanks Beach - And if you guys shut down for the holiday, ok by me as you folks have been overworked I'm sure.

Right now, this is on the 18th thread and I can't keep up with facts due to so many posts. I know that there is one thread that is ONLY for posting of news, and without comments. Can you let us all know if/when you separate out topical threads for this so those that want to truly sleuth on a subject can have a place to go to post and to have as a reference for subjects at a later time. I've wanted to look for a specific item, and did indeed try to search but couldn't find in this morass of postings in the 18 threads so far.

Thanks for all you mods do! Take the weekend off!


BBM

I take issue with the bolded statement. These things have been discussed here ad nauseum. As well as the not flattering incidents from GZ's past.


************************************************** *****

Mod Note:


To everyone participating in this tiresome back & forth -

STOP THE FLIPPIN' "RIGHT FIGHTING" HERE.

I am sick of it. It does NOTHING except incite arguments and bickering amongst members who disagree. Both sides have advocates who are more concerned about being right than actually sleuthing to determine the facts.

If you guys can't be mature enough to adopt the simple "Agree to disagree" approach, we will help solve that issue.

It is Easter weekend. Mods are exhausted from this case alone. One way or another these threads are going to take a more tolerant, civil, respectful tone. We will simply TO those who continue to bait, incite and post inflammatory remarks when the intention is to ellicit visceral responses from the other side of the fence.

Mods are going to be given a break this holiday weekend. It is up to you guys if you would like to be here or not.

Reader
04-06-2012, 01:48 PM
"Shaken Baby Syndrome" used in defense of Trayvon Martin's killer

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/sns-rt-us-usa-florida-shootingbre8350d5-20120406,0,1690924.story

SANFORD, Florida (Reuters) - "Shaken Baby Syndrome" was cited on Friday in the defense of George Zimmerman, the Sanford, Florida, man who shot and killed unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin, in a case that has sparked a widespread public outcry.

Hal Uhrig, a lawyer and formerGainesville, Florida, police officer who recently joined Zimmerman's defense team, cited in a TV interview the brain damage that can seriously injure or kill an infant.

His point, which has been made before, was that Zimmerman contends he shot Martin in self defense and feared for his life after the 17-year-old attacked him and began pounding his head into the concrete pavement of a gated community on a rainy evening in Sanford on February 26.

More at link....


Where are the medical records to verify this? A lawyer's guess does not mean anything about proof. To me this is just another excuse for 'no blood'. IMO

vlpate
04-06-2012, 01:49 PM
BBM

In the following statement Bonaparte is saying what the officer said.





In one of the initial meetings with the father of the victim the investigator related to
him the account that Mr. Zimmerman provided of the incident. At that time the
investigator said that Mr. Zimmerman portrayed himself to be “squeaky clean”.



Now to your second question. Zimmerman had a violent arrest record. Why wouldn't the cop tell Mr. Martin that and just leave him with the account of Zimmerman saying he was squeaky clean?

I only know about the arrest for assault on the plain clothes officer that was dropped. Were there other arrests?

daisy7
04-06-2012, 01:49 PM
Bonaparte puts it in his open letter, and then ends the letter that he "trusts this information is helpful to you" (the citizens). He's standing by that information in his open letter, even though the questions were initially answered by LE, they were included in his informational piece.

Since Bonaparte is the city manager, and this letter is on the official city website, I think you can infer that this open letter is the position of the City management.

The letter states that Chief Lee was asked these questions and the below are his responses. I believe this is just stating what Chief Lee said, not that this is the position of of the City of Stanford. And, since Chief Lee was given a vote of "no confidence" by the City Commissioners, I'm thinking they don't agree with his claims as stated in this letter.

JMO.

CHICANA
04-06-2012, 01:50 PM
The difference is that TM was not arrested or charged so it is nothing more than hearsay or it was found not to be his. GZ, on the other hand, physically assaulted an identified police officer and even said he didn't care who he was. He was arrested, but once again, not charged, so he got out of the punishment of his actions. There is a big difference between their backgrounds, imo.

GZ wasn't convicted of anything either, so what's the difference ? The officer was undercover and GZ didn't know he was a cop. He thought he just another guy in a bar bothering his friend. It's not like he went out and hit an identified uniformed officer. And I read that he shoved him, which IMO isn't exactly a serious physical assault. Where is the version that describes an identified PO and GZ saying he didn't care who he was ?

lauriej
04-06-2012, 01:52 PM
I agree that is very powerful statement to make defending a police officers word against a grieving fathers word.

But Mr. Bonaparte fails to give a reasonable explanation why a cop would only be repeating a lie told to them by a homicide suspect to a grieving father and not tell him that was a lie and tell him the truth.

Nowhere in that statement does Mr. Bonaparte say the police officer told him the truth about Zimmerman's record. He just claims the officer said well Mr. Zimmerman told us he had a squeaky clean record. Now why in the world would the cop ever tell Mr. Martin that and not tell him it was a lie and Zimmerman did have a record.



Why was George Zimmerman labeled as “squeaky clean” when in fact he has
a prior arrest history?
In one of the initial meetings with the father of the victim the investigator related to
him the account that Mr. Zimmerman provided of the incident. At that time the
investigator said that Mr. Zimmerman portrayed himself to be “squeaky clean”. We
are aware of the background information regarding both individuals involved in this
event. We believe Mr. Martin may have misconstrued this information.



http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

--those answers are not given by Mr. Bonaparte.

--from bonaparte's letter:


"In an effort to continue to be as responsive as possible to the public seeking information on
the incident, I have asked Chief Lee to provide answers to some of the most frequently
asked questions regarding this matter. Below are his responses."

Kimster
04-06-2012, 01:52 PM
Please remember that blogs are considered rumor most of the time. Just a FYI from outer space. :kimsterwink:

JeannaT
04-06-2012, 01:53 PM
The letter states that Chief Lee was asked these questions and the below are his responses. I believe this is just stating what Chief Lee said, not that this is the position of of the City of Stanford. And, since Chief Lee was given a vote of "no confidence" by the City Commissioners, I'm thinking they don't agree with his claims as stated in this letter.

JMO.

I can't imagine a circumstance where a city manager, in this case Bonaparte, would voluntarily compose and sign an open letter to the public and post it on the city's official website if it contained information he didn't believe.

Dr.Fessel
04-06-2012, 01:57 PM
I agree that they are trying out defense strategies. But having been attacked in a similar manner as GZ has claimed, I find the description believable. GZ was more evenly matched than I was, but it is hard (impossible for me) to stand, walk, or run when your attacker is on top of you slamming your head into the floor by violently shaking your shoulders (they pick you up at your shoulders and then slam you back down). Because I've been in a similar situation, I find GZ's fear of brain injury to be one of the most believable aspects of his story.

JMO, OMO, and :moo: BBM

Not the same thing. They are saying ground now and we know it was wet ground.

Peliman
04-06-2012, 01:58 PM
Me thinks the GZ's defense is running things up the flag pole to see what gets shot at. I also have to wonder about things like what if GZ is telling the truth about being jumped and having his head slammed, if it was me I'd be (oops pizzed) and not thinking very clearly (probably) I may react and the person may not like the results.

I don't know the circumstances about what happened with GZ. I'm trying to weigh this whole incident on legal issues.

LolaMoon08
04-06-2012, 02:01 PM
If for some reason, charges are never brought against George Zimmerman in the death of Trayvon Martin, I would beg Mr. Zimmerman to sell his gun and choose never to own a gun again. If he is going to continue to practice his right to own/carry a gun, I would then beg that he never, ever again be in a position where he feels entitled to use it on an innocent person.

If charges are not brought against George Zimmerman, I will accept it. I won't like it and I won't agree with it, but I will accept it. I will also be very vocal about serious changes being made to the SYG laws. Trayvon will not have died in vain!

As a Floridian, I really wish we have the right to deport people back to the State they were born in. :banghead:

Gin
04-06-2012, 02:02 PM
I agree that they are trying out defense strategies. But having been attacked in a similar manner as GZ has claimed, I find the description believable. GZ was more evenly matched than I was, but it is hard (impossible for me) to stand, walk, or run when your attacker is on top of you slamming your head into the floor by violently shaking your shoulders (they pick you up at your shoulders and then slam you back down). Because I've been in a similar situation, I find GZ's fear of brain injury to be one of the most believable aspects of his story.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

I am truly sorry you experience that.

JMO, This case ends up in a very large grassy area, with Trayvon face down, dead. I hear Trayvon's screams, and his voice doesn't sound like he's pounding the heck out of GZ, it sounds like he's staring down a 9mm and is terrified he is going to die very soon. His wails are bone chilling.
I don't necessary believe that a bouncer would be helpless--GZ was the one doing the following, he had the edge of surprise. Finally, I watched the police station video carefully. Moves fine, walks fine, normal, no issues. He in no way appears to have just been in the fight of his life.

I do think that the mental image of having one's head slammed repeatedly into the concrete is very disturbing. Add to it thoughts of having a sibling spoon feed you and change your diapers isn't pleasant either. IMO, that is why this "concrete slam defense" is being firmly repeated by GZ's family and attorneys.

Peliman
04-06-2012, 02:03 PM
If for some reason, charges are never brought against George Zimmerman in the death of Trayvon Martin, I would beg Mr. Zimmerman to sell his gun and choose never to own a gun again. If he is going to continue to practice his right to own/carry a gun, I would then beg that he never, ever again be in a position where he feels entitled to use it on an innocent person.

If charges are not brought against George Zimmerman, I will accept it. I won't like it and I won't agree with it, but I will accept it. I will also be very vocal about serious changes being made to the SYG laws. Trayvon will not have died in vain!

As a Floridian, I really wish we have the right to deport people back to the State they were born in. :banghead:

<--Born in Miami, raised in Hollywood. Good post Lola, I respect your opinion.

tehcloser
04-06-2012, 02:05 PM
<--Born in Miami, raised in Hollywood. Good post Lola, I respect your opinion.


Oooooooooo, so that explains the ^^^hair...........:floorlaugh:

Dr.Fessel
04-06-2012, 02:08 PM
"We're familiar with the Shaken Baby Syndrome," said Uhrig on the CBS This Morning program. "You shake a baby, the brain shakes around inside the skull. You can die when someone's pounding your head into the ground."

http://whtc.com/news/articles/2012/apr/06/shaken-baby-syndrome-used-in-defense-of-trayvon-martins-killer/

"He didn't commit any crime," Unrig said on CBS. "He was attacked, broke his nose, hit his head into the ground and he defended himself. That's not against the law."


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/sns-rt-us-usa-florida-shootingbre8350d5-20120406,0,1690924.story

i.b.nora
04-06-2012, 02:09 PM
I am currently looking at two very different versions of:

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/index.html

ONE SAYS:

Trayvon Martin Investigation
FAQ Letter

Dear Citizens:

There has been a lot of media attention ... blah blah blah with link to pdf

AND

It further says, and I quote:

"The office of the State Attorney, 4th Judicial Circuit, State Attorney Angela Corey has requested that the City of Sanford remove all reports, videos and audio pertaining to the Martin/Zimmerman case from the website. Their office has provided legal justification for the action and they believe further access to the information will have an adverse effect on their efforts to come to a resolution to this investigation."

NOW, THE SECOND VERSION I HAVE OPEN SAYS:

Important Notice - Trayvon Martin

Dear Citizens:

There has been a lot of media attention ... blah blah blah with link to pdf

At least this might answer the question of the missing documents that were previously there.

Peliman
04-06-2012, 02:10 PM
Oooooooooo, so that explains the ^^^hair...........:floorlaugh:

Goober ;) hi teh....just this morning I was saying mirror mirror on the wall, who's got the best hair of all.

daisy7
04-06-2012, 02:11 PM
I can't imagine a circumstance where a city manager, in this case Bonaparte, would voluntarily compose and sign an open letter to the public and post it on the city's official website if it contained information he didn't believe.

The letter clearly states states that Bonaprate is providing the answers to questions from Chief Lee in response to the public seeking answers. No where does it state that Bonaparte agrees with Chief Lee's responses. Please point out the sentence that states this. TIA!

gxm
04-06-2012, 02:14 PM
BBM

Not the same thing. They are saying ground now and we know it was wet ground.

The most frightening thing to me was the sound my head made as it hit the tile floor. (Odd thing to focus on but I remember it to this day.) I've never had my head slammed into wet ground (and I'm not gonna try it out) so I can't say for sure. Still I can't help but empathize with GZ's story.

ETA: I completely empathize with TM's family and friends for their tragic loss. That one photo of TM and his dad always brings tears to my eyes.

Adrienne37
04-06-2012, 02:25 PM
The letter clearly states states that Bonaprate is providing the answers to questions from Chief Lee in response to the public seeking answers. No where does it state that Bonaparte agrees with Chief Lee's responses. Please point out the sentence that states this. TIA!

Myself, had I been in Bonaparte's position as city manager, I would have taken that letter down after the no confidence vote from the city commissioners as well as Chief Lee's resignation.


~jmo~