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nursebeeme
03-28-2012, 07:28 AM
New thread for a new day. Please remember the rules

:tos:


When posting an opinion please remember to use IMO or JMO.


the crown will present its case in chapters:

Chapter 1: The day of the kidnapping. The surveillance video showing Rafferty driving up the street outside Tori's school and McClintic walking Tori up the street. Witnesses from and around Oliver Stephens public school will talk about seeing Tori.
An identification officer will use photographs and maps to show the route from Woodstock to Guelph.
Tori's mother, Tara McDonald, will testify about the frantic hours the family spent looking for Tori.

Chapter 2: Terri-Lynne McClintic. "She was an essential part of all that happened," Gowdey said. "I expect her credibility will be a major issue in this case."

Chapter 3: Guelph -- video surveillance and bank records detailing the events there.

Chapter 4: the Mount Forest death scene, which the jury will visit. "It will be difficult to go to the very place where this happened, I know that, but understanding the crime scene is crucial to understanding the crime," Gowdey said. Photographs, some of them graphic, will be used to explain "exactly how the killing happened."
"Unfortunately it is only through them that you can fully understand (the) evidence," Gowdey said.

Chapter 5: Police interaction with Rafferty.

Chapter 6: The searches of Rafferty and McClintic's residences and the evidence found.

Chapter 7: The Honda Civic. What was found inside.

Chapter 8: Rafferty's connection to the Mount Forest area.

Chapter 9: Comments Rafferty made to friends after April 8. "He had some interesting things to say to other people about Terri-Lynne McClintic and about the kidnapping itself," Gowdey said.

Chapter 10: The May 15 weekend and Rafferty's actions.

Chapter 11: The BlackBerry. The BlackBerry allowed police to track his movements April 8 and after.

Chapter 12: A recap of the surveillance video.
http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/r.../19463111.html

Salem's warning from last week:
Okay everybody - LISTEN UP! We are not bashing, accusing or blaming Tori's family here. It won't be allowed.
Children walk home from school every day without incident. Parents are not perfect, it's just not possible. Tori's parents DID NOT do this to her. TLM and an accomplice DID. That is where the blame goes.
We had a lot of family bashing in the early parts of this investigation after Tori went missing and a lot of baseless accusations - NONE OF WHICH PROVED TO BE TRUE. Victim and family bashing will not be allowed during this trial.
Thank you,
Salem
---------------------------------
and reposting SoSueMe's warning:
As some of you may have noticed, the members following this case are dropping in numbers. It's disheartening to us because we need and welcome discussion of both sides of every issue on Websleuths.
Zero tolerance means ZERO tolerance. Please discuss this case with respect to your fellow members. Subtle and veiled harassment and/or talking in code about other members will not be tolerated.
A word of caution on the Alerts in this forum. If you alert a post, make sure it is a clear violation of our Terms of Service. A difference of opinion is not a violation of TOS.
Please note that everything discussed in court and printed/tweeted is now within the realm of discussion. WS has never and does not now have a policy of "innocent until proven guilty." That is for the court room. Here, we discuss, speculate, theorize and judge according to the opinions we develop from following the case.
Keeping that in mind, abuse of our alert system is a good way to find yourself in timeout or worse. Abuse of the alert systems includes, but is not limited to:
Alerting repeatedly on the same poster;
Demanding a specific outcome;
Alerting on the same post more than once.
Once you have alerted a post, move on and don't question the decisions of our Administrators, Moderators or Owners.
Following this trial is very important to our members and we're going to see that they have their day in court. The "zero tolerance" policy in this forum will continue and it will be enforced.
Thank you and please carry on.
Sue aka SoSueMe
Websleuths Co-Owner

Salem
04-09-2012, 04:55 PM
Please continue here.

Salem

SoSueMe
04-12-2012, 05:58 AM
*Bump*

~n/t~
04-12-2012, 06:56 AM
Good Morning!

http://img.src.ca/2009/04/20/300x225/090420victoria-stafford_g.jpg

~n/t~
04-12-2012, 06:59 AM
DNA evidence places Tori Stafford in Michael Rafferty’s car
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/dna-evidence-places-tori-stafford-in-michael-raffertys-car/article2398421/

Highly probable blood found in Michael Rafferty’s car a DNA match for Tori Stafford: expert


The likelihood of the blood belonging to someone unrelated to the young girl is one in 150 trillion, testified forensic biologist Jennifer McLean from the Ontario Centre of Forensic Sciences in Toronto.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/04/11/highly-probable-blood-found-in-michael-raffertys-car-dna-match-for-tori-stafford-expert/

~n/t~
04-12-2012, 07:02 AM
For first time at trial, Rafferty displays human-like emotion


But from the moment Lane walked into the courtroom until the moment she left, Rafferty's eyes followed her.

She is a pretty 30-year-old with long dark hair, who first met the meaty fellow in the prisoner's box when they were both in Grade 6 in Drayton, a village of about 1,800 northwest of Guelph, Ont.




I love the choice of words. lol

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/first+time+trial+Rafferty+displays+human+like+emot ion/6444844/story.html

snoofer
04-12-2012, 07:59 AM
For first time at trial, Rafferty displays human-like emotion



I love the choice of words. lol

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/first+time+trial+Rafferty+displays+human+like+emot ion/6444844/story.html

this is the part that gets the best of him with emotion...why this part. IMO

maybe this lady draws a parallel to him, his life before he was a nutter and his life after he was a nutter? JMO Any other ideas? Wonders when these folks realize that there is something not right about themselves? Even before the murder investigation, did he not analyze his life at any time and think geesh it all kind of seems "in the can" and maybe I should turn my life around? MOO

Confusedashell
04-12-2012, 08:23 AM
Maybe he was crying because he realized that Lane was a good girl and he threw it all away for TLM and this crime.

Thinkzerz
04-12-2012, 08:50 AM
One hole that i do see in TLM's story is that she claims MR and her went to Cambridge to clean the car and change their clothes and then back to Woodstock right? The police i believe stated that they pinged MR cell phone in mount forest at 750ish? TLM says that MR dropped her off at 9.00pm in Woodstock?? Well, what I don't get IF i have the times right, that MR would not have had time to drive from Mount Forest to Cambridge clean his car, change their clothing and then back to Woodstock in that time frame. Does anyone have the correct time of MR cell phone ping and the time TLM says MR dropped her off in Woodstock?

Juris_Prudence
04-12-2012, 08:56 AM
I found the defence's theory very weak right from the beginning. And even though they cannot build a DNA profile from the semen they found in the bloodspot, which other male was at the scene that night. No other male.

Firstly, its my first attempt at bringing a quote from a closed board forward, so pls forgive me if I've done so badly! Secondly, I added the bold in the quote for clarity.

I was wondering whether there was any way for the forensics to determine how fresh the sperm was that they found? However unlikely, is it possible that the sperm was already there when Tori's blood :( got in the car? I'm not asking as a means to defend MR, so pls don't take it that way but I do wonder whether this is a point his defense might ask the witness about. If there is no way to tell how old it was, then will Derstine say the blood sample was contaminated by his sperm which was already there from prior sexual acts in his car? Clearly he was boinking at least TLM and who knows who else in that car.

daisy.faithfull
04-12-2012, 09:11 AM
I think you guys are right.

I was also wondering if it has anything to do with the fact that no one from his former life is at the trial to support him. I guess we don't know that for sure. And we don't know, maybe no one is visiting him. It wasn't reported that he had a strong reaction to BA, so she was probably someone special, especially because of that childhood connection.

Isn't AL the one that broke up him before the abduction? I'd think that he had been struggling with his demons for a while, hopefully he never acted on them. Maybe he always thought that that special someone would magically vanquish his demons, so maybe he was feeling like if it would have worked out with her he wouldn't have done what he did.

Anyway, it could be that the only person from his former life that he has been able to see a lot of is TLM.

Thinkzerz
04-12-2012, 09:27 AM
I have been a reader here for years and lately i have been ready that some people have doubts unless their is concrete DNA evidence. Well we may or may not get that but the crown is right in saying the evidence speaks for itself. So far TLM story is lining up with the evidence. I still believe more happened in that car then TLM is saying. JMO

matou
04-12-2012, 09:27 AM
One hole that i do see in TLM's story is that she claims MR and her went to Cambridge to clean the car and change their clothes and then back to Woodstock right? The police i believe stated that they pinged MR cell phone in mount forest at 750ish? TLM says that MR dropped her off at 9.00pm in Woodstock?? Well, what I don't get IF i have the times right, that MR would not have had time to drive from Mount Forest to Cambridge clean his car, change their clothing and then back to Woodstock in that time frame. Does anyone have the correct time of MR cell phone ping and the time TLM says MR dropped her off in Woodstock?

I think we will be hearing more about the cell phone ping info in a future chapter. To me, going to Cambridge doesn't make sense either. I would think they drove to Mount Forest. But maybe MR knew about an isolated car wash that he could get to quickly. The place discovered by some sleuthers here seems to be the right place. JMO

Juris_Prudence
04-12-2012, 09:32 AM
Matou - I read your post yesterday about when MR cried in court, and how he didn't seem to cry when Tori was murdered, or when he left her to rot. I didn't get to comment on it last night but wanted to say it was an excellent post, and very thought provoking! Thanks for posting it!

matou
04-12-2012, 09:40 AM
Jurors at the trial of the man accused of killing Victoria (Tori) Stafford are expected to hear more DNA evidence today in London, Ont., after learning a blood sample taken from Michael Rafferty's car likely came from the eight-year-old girl.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/04/12/rafferty-stafford-murder-trial.html

Thinkzerz
04-12-2012, 09:43 AM
Those rocks where Tori was found in are piles of rocks that farmers usually pay teenagers to "rock pick" their fields in getting them ready for planting crops. I wonder if MR had ever worked for this farmer in the past and knew about this secluded area?

daisy.faithfull
04-12-2012, 09:50 AM
Welcome to Websleuths Thinkzerz! :)

matou
04-12-2012, 09:51 AM
DNA evidence shown on Day 20

Slide show of 89 slides

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/12/19623401.html

matou
04-12-2012, 09:55 AM
@RaffertyLFP (https://twitter.com/#%21/RaffertyLFP)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/RaffertyLFP/status/190437462777147392)Waiting for court to resume with more testimony from forensics expert Jennifer McLean

Thinkzerz
04-12-2012, 09:57 AM
http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/12/19623401.html
Photo 81. I don't remember hearing about blood on the shoes yesterday.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:02 AM
Has there been any of Rafferty's family in court to date?

no not to my knowledge.

AM980.ca
Thanks for following the updates today. Tried to explain the DNA talk as best as possible, but it's hard to follow at times.

RaffertyLFP: Jury is coming in court is resuming

puppyraiser
04-12-2012, 10:04 AM
http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/12/19623401.html
Photo 81. I don't remember hearing about blood on the shoes yesterday.

Don't think they mentioned it yesterday. Maybe today we will hear more about those Puma shoes, which I believe were MR's .

matou
04-12-2012, 10:04 AM
‏ @RaffertyLFP (https://twitter.com/#%21/RaffertyLFP)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/RaffertyLFP/status/190440162231205889)Jury is coming in court is resuming

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:05 AM
The jury is in. McLean back on the stand.

RaffertyLFP: Jennifer McLean resumes testimony court sees slide of "shaq" running shoes worn by McClinitic

Showing the jury McClintic's shoes.

RaffertyLFP: McLean said the Centre for Forensics Science was asked to test the running shoes for blood and DNA

matou
04-12-2012, 10:06 AM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190440255885819904)The jury is in. McLean back on the stand.

@RaffertyLFP (https://twitter.com/#%21/RaffertyLFP)


(https://twitter.com/#%21/RaffertyLFP/status/190440486803214336)Jennifer McLean resumes testimony court sees slide of "shaq" running shoes worn by McClinitic

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:07 AM
RaffertyLFP: McLean said running shoes are usually bad for DNA testing because of heat, moisture

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Scientists looked for both blood and other DNA.

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Biologist Jennifer McLean is still on the stand. Speaking about the DNA testing of McClintic's SHAQ runners. No blood found.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Usually, running shoes produce poor DNA results. No blood was found, but hairs and fibers were.

matou
04-12-2012, 10:08 AM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190441042888237057)Usually, running shoes produce poor DNA results. No blood was found, but hairs and fibers were.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:10 AM
RaffertyLFP: McLean said no blood was detected on the shoes. There wasn't enough DNA to generate a profile

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Hairs were sent to chemistry for evaluation.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
They also examined the size nine Puma shoes found at McClintic's home.

RaffertyLFP: Blood tests were also done on the running shoes found in McClintic's home They tested positive for blood

matou
04-12-2012, 10:12 AM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190441704753598464)Hairs were sent to chemistry for evaluation.

‏ @AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)


(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190441922987425793)They also examined the size nine Puma shoes found at McClintic's home.

nettie_82
04-12-2012, 10:12 AM
Those rocks where Tori was found in are piles of rocks that farmers usually pay teenagers to "rock pick" their fields in getting them ready for planting crops. I wonder if MR had ever worked for this farmer in the past and knew about this secluded area?

The farmer who owns the land there testified the other week. He didn't say anything about paying teenagers to pick rocks there for him. He made it sound like his own family does it. I believe that to be the case here as it is a Mennonite Farmer and I think most of them do the work themselves with their families.

matou
04-12-2012, 10:13 AM
‏ @AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190442223328964612)Blood was found on the PUMA shoes, on the inside of the shoes.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:13 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Blood was found on the PUMA shoes, on the inside of the shoes.

RaffertyLFP: Blood tests were also done on the running shoes found in McClintic's home They tested positive for blood

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
There was insufficient DNA to generate results on who's blood may have been on the shoes.

daisy.faithfull
04-12-2012, 10:13 AM
Firstly, its my first attempt at bringing a quote from a closed board forward, so pls forgive me if I've done so badly! Secondly, I added the bold in the quote for clarity.

I was wondering whether there was any way for the forensics to determine how fresh the sperm was that they found? However unlikely, is it possible that the sperm was already there when Tori's blood :( got in the car? I'm not asking as a means to defend MR, so pls don't take it that way but I do wonder whether this is a point his defense might ask the witness about. If there is no way to tell how old it was, then will Derstine say the blood sample was contaminated by his sperm which was already there from prior sexual acts in his car? Clearly he was boinking at least TLM and who knows who else in that car.


McLean also found blood on the rear passenger side door and seat area. A bloodstain about four millimetres in diameter was found on the side door rubber moulding. DNA testing found only a 1 in 150 trillion chance it could be someone’s other than Tori.

The blood spot was also tested for sperm cells. Testing showed there was a mixture of DNA from two individuals, but the other sample was too small for reliable analysis, McLean said.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/article/1159650--tori-stafford-murder-trial-scrap-of-fabric-came-from-car-like-rafferty-s-trial-told

My interpretation of mixture is that one sample with the two different DNA profiles was on the door moulding. If the sperm got on the door moulding sometime before or after Tori's blood got on door moulding I would think they would be two separate samples.

But that is :moo: based on my understanding of the situation. I could be wrong though. I think also that if there is any possibility the samples could have been left on two different dates it is probable that the defence will bring that up. I guess we must just wait and see.

matou
04-12-2012, 10:14 AM
@RaffertyLFP (https://twitter.com/#%21/RaffertyLFP)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/RaffertyLFP/status/190442342073905152)Blood tests were also done on the running shoes found in McClintic's home They tested positive for blood

matou
04-12-2012, 10:15 AM
‏ @AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190442625743077376)There was insufficient DNA to generate results on who's blood may have been on the shoes.

Thinkzerz
04-12-2012, 10:15 AM
The farmer who owns the land there testified the other week. He didn't say anything about paying teenagers to pick rocks there for him. He made it sound like his own family does it. I believe that to be the case here as it is a Mennonite Farmer and I think most of them do the work themselves with their families.

Some do some don't. I rocked picked yearssss ago that is how i know they pay teens to rock pick each year.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:16 AM
RaffertyLFP: McLean said the DNA profile on one of McClinitic's shoes showed a mixed DNA profile, at least one male but not enough to identify

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
There were two DNA profiles. One was male.

RaffertyLFP: McLean said she couldn't make an ID on McClintic's Puma shoes because of insufficient DNA

matou
04-12-2012, 10:16 AM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190443131261562880)There were two DNA profiles. One was male.

matou
04-12-2012, 10:17 AM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190443503833202688)None of the DNA profiles from the Puma shoes were suitable for comparison, McLean says.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:18 AM
McLean says tests on the PUMA shoes found in McClintic's home showed blood was present inside of both shoes

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Blood in one PUMA shoe is from two different people. One was male. Not enough DNA to make a match. Blood in other from female.

AM980.ca
None of the DNA profiles from the Puma shoes were suitable for comparison, McLean says.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:21 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
All blood was inside the shoes, not on the exterior.

RaffertyLFP: Court is moving on to the black pea coat taken from Rafferty's home

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Now moving on to the hairs from the pea coat found at Rafferty's home.

RaffertyLFP: Yesterday the court was told two blond hairs were found on the pea coat

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:24 AM
RaffertyLFP: McLean said there were about 40 areas on the coat that were analyzed for DNA and saliva

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Body fluid testing was also done on the coat.

RaffertyLFP: McLean said there was no blood detected on the coat but saliva was detected.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Blood was not found on the inside or outside of the coat. Saliva was.

RaffertyLFP: McLean said the two hairs found on the coat did not have enough DNA for testing

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:28 AM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
McLean is telling the jury about the findings of testing on the black pea coat found in #Rafferty's closet. No blood found.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
The hairs did not have sufficient DNA for further testing.

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
McLean says the 2 blonde hairs found on the pea coat did not have enough DNA to continue with testing.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:30 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Rafferty's saliva was likely on the coat. The random match probability is 1 in 250 billion. McClintic and Tori excluded.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
There were other spots of male DNA, not enough data to create a matchable profile.

RaffertyLFP: DNA testing on other stains on the coat matched the Rafferty's profile. There was DNA from other individuals that could not be tested

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Three spots were matched to Rafferty.

~n/t~
04-12-2012, 10:30 AM
:sigh:

SideKick
04-12-2012, 10:32 AM
:sigh:

~~ Make that a double! :-)

puppyraiser
04-12-2012, 10:32 AM
Wow, all this evidence in the form of blood, semen and saliva and there isn't enough DNA present to compare to known profiles of VS, TLM and MR. How lucky for MR.

CarrieBean
04-12-2012, 10:33 AM
I don't want to hear any more of this "not enough DNA" crap. :(

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:33 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
McLean says she can't speak directly on how fluids wind up on items.

RaffertyLFP: Court is shown a slide of the blue folding knife found in Rafferty's home

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
The knife found in Rafferty's tool box was also tested.

SideKick
04-12-2012, 10:34 AM
Wow, all this evidence in the form of blood, semen and saliva and there isn't enough DNA present to compare to known profiles of VS, TLM and MR. How lucky for MR.

Makes you wonder why not?

(what kind of puppies do you raise)??

daisy.faithfull
04-12-2012, 10:34 AM
Wow, all this evidence in the form of blood, semen and saliva and there isn't enough DNA present to compare to known profiles of VS, TLM and MR. How lucky for MR.
So far.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:34 AM
RaffertyLFP: McLean said there was no blood detected on the knife

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
They tested the knife handle for blood. The blade was gone. No blood detected.

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Crown asking McLean about the utility knife found in #Rafferty's home. McClintic said she cut out bloodstains from back seat w sim. knife.

robynhood
04-12-2012, 10:35 AM
..a huge thanks to Matou for posting the slides above this post .It made it very clear of the evidence found ( yesterday's tweets were very confusing) and was great actually seeing the samples/evidence found!...IMO I am looking forward to today's evidence and the remaining chapters of the cell phone pings and who MR talked to the night this horrible deeds was commited .Also want to hear what he said about it all!....too bad that back seat of the car was never found ....puzzles me as other posters said ...IMO I agree they did not go far to clean up the honda Civic ....!...IMO also very lucky that MR honic civic is even around to collect this evidence....THk God it was seized!....NOW lets hear how ...Defense explains all this ....IMO when all the Crowns chapters are finished ....I am praying there will be NO MORE DOUBT as to what happened April 8, 2009!......I have done my best for the TORI case and signed legistature to change this .....MAY such a HORRENDOUS thing never happen again to OUR children in ONT....and may the penlty for such hoorible acts fit the crime...again...In my honest opinion....robynhood ...read this case thoroughly since Tori went missing...my heart still hearts BADLY for Tori's courgeous FAmily....I do not think I could cope as well ....again IMO!....robynhood...interesting MR actaully showed some tears when he saw alexus ...hmmm <modsnip>...MR girl friend at the time who was with him after Tori's disappearance ?????....robynhood

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:36 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Washing items may remove body fluids, McLean says.

RaffertyLFP: Court is shown slide of McClintic's hair shorn off because gum was stuck in it

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
They also tested the napkin found with McClintic's hair in her garbage. No blood was found.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:39 AM
RaffertyLFP: McLean said DNA was extracted from the gum that matched McClintic There was other DNA but it was not from Stafford or Rafferty

RaffertyLFP: Derstine begins cross-examination of McLean

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Likely McClintic's DNA was found on the napkin with the hair. 1/11 trillion chance for random match. Other DNA was found. Not Tori/Rafferty

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Derstine now questioning McLean. Carnegie finished.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine asks McLean if it is likely that DNA would be found on objects that people routinely handle

puppyraiser
04-12-2012, 10:40 AM
Makes you wonder why not?

(what kind of puppies do you raise)??

I would imagine Toronto has a state of the art testing facility but I am wondering why so many results have come back with "not enough DNA to make a comparison". Strange considering the spots of blood on the bottom of the gym bag appeared to be so much smaller than other areas and yet two DNA profiles were able to be extracted.

(I raise Labs and Goldens to become Autism Service Dogs)

Kamille
04-12-2012, 10:40 AM
Wow, all this evidence in the form of blood, semen and saliva and there isn't enough DNA present to compare to known profiles of VS, TLM and MR. How lucky for MR.

He had six weeks to clean the coat. Not to mention likely wearing it in the elements even if he didn't have it professionally cleaned. DNA degrades with time. Not surprising at all.

MOO

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:42 AM
RaffertyLFP: McLean agrees with Derstine that DNA can be indirectly transferred from one object to another

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Derstine says there's a wide variety of ways DNA can get on an item. McLean agrees. Compares to freshly painted wall.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Derstine says a cloth with wet blood could transfer DNA on to "say, a gym bag?". McLean agrees.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:43 AM
RaffertyLFP: McLean agrees with Derstine that only a small amount of blood is needed to generate DNA

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
"If diluted blood was on a surface, could it be recovered?" Derstine asks. McLean says yes.

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Derstine asks McLean about the possible DNA transfer onto items indirectly. For example blood from finger, to cloth, to gym bag.

Kamille
04-12-2012, 10:44 AM
RaffertyLFP: McLean agrees with Derstine that DNA can be indirectly transferred from one object to another

Here's goes the two step where the damning DNA results are inaccurate and the lack of DNA in other areas is precise.

MOO

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:46 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Derstine asks about semen stain on passenger seat, suggests it would dry quickly. McLean says yes.

RaffertyLFP: Court is shown blood stain on door moulding near rear passenger seat in Rafferty's car

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Stains with mixed DNA may not have both DNA sources deposited at the same time, McLean says.

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
McLean agrees that a stain with blood and semen could have fluid deposits from different dates. Like stains on front seat of #Rafferty's car

CarrieBean
04-12-2012, 10:47 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court

Stains with mixed DNA may not have both DNA sources deposited at the same time, McLean says.

Did not want to hear this.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:48 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Derstine says conclusion about blood on the door has no impact on conclusions about unidentified blood.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
There was a sperm fraction in the blood spot on the door, but it may not have come from semen, Derstine suggests. McLean says that's true.

daisy.faithfull
04-12-2012, 10:49 AM
:banghead:


AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court

Stains with mixed DNA may not have both DNA sources deposited at the same time, McLean says.

Did not want to hear this.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:52 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine said there was sperm fraction in the blood spot but it does not mean it came from semen, McLean agrees

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Derstine asks about cut out back seat. There's a sperm fraction on the material, but not certainly from semen.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
There was no semen detected in the back seat. No way to determine where sperm fraction cella came from.

brighidin
04-12-2012, 10:52 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Derstine says conclusion about blood on the door has no impact on conclusions about unidentified blood.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
There was a sperm fraction in the blood spot on the door, but it may not have come from semen, Derstine suggests. McLean says that's true.

Where else does sperm come from? Clearly i'm missing something. :waitasec:

robynhood
04-12-2012, 10:54 AM
...Hey Kamille ....IMO and I am sure we all realize this..>>>>>it is what he is suppose to do>>> lousy job as a ..." DEFENSE ATTORNEY !...been in Ont. courts and they can TRY and explain that even blood is not RED...( the obvious)....again my VERY STRONG IMO!....they try anything to get their client to look INOCENT ...better say again in my opinion from being in our ONT> courts .....that is why I signed "The Tori LAw "....robynhood !

daisy.faithfull
04-12-2012, 10:54 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Derstine says conclusion about blood on the door has no impact on conclusions about unidentified blood.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
There was a sperm fraction in the blood spot on the door, but it may not have come from semen, Derstine suggests. McLean says that's true.

Isnt seman the only body fluid that has sperm?

CarrieBean
04-12-2012, 10:55 AM
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one confused by this statement

Juris_Prudence
04-12-2012, 10:55 AM
:banghead:

Another thought about the male DNA. They could not identify who the male dna belonged to (right?). Did MR buy the car used? If so, is it possible the male dna stain belonged to a former owner? If he bought the car used, it could have come from any male on the planet. I wonder if Derstine is going to bring that up as well now? :(

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:57 AM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Rafferty's lawyer Dirk Derstine is currently questioning the biologist who tested blood and semen stains in the accused's car

RaffertyLFP: McLean tells Derstine there are technical problems in determining whether male DNA found in some samples is actually from semen

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Showing the driver's seat from Rafferty's car. Again, Derstine notes sperm fraction was located. May not be semen.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
In some spots sperm fraction was found, semen was ruled out as being present. But, surface may have been washed, McLean says

brighidin
04-12-2012, 10:57 AM
Another thought about the male DNA. They could not identify who the male dna belonged to (right?). Did MR buy the car used? If so, is it possible the male dna stain belonged to a former owner? If he bought the car used, it could have come from any male on the planet. I wonder if Derstine is going to bring that up as well now? :(

I think Derstine is trying to shift the focus away from the evidence that Tori's blood/dna was found in MR's car, so yes, he'll probably bring up anything. IMO

Tahorn
04-12-2012, 10:57 AM
with the amount of DNA in the car and the locations of where it was found tells a story but so does the lack of DNA.

nettie_82
04-12-2012, 10:57 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court

Stains with mixed DNA may not have both DNA sources deposited at the same time, McLean says.

Did not want to hear this.

But in REALITY what are the chances they weren't???

CarrieBean
04-12-2012, 10:58 AM
But in REALITY what are the chances they weren't???

All that is needed is reasonable doubt

Kamille
04-12-2012, 10:59 AM
One hole that i do see in TLM's story is that she claims MR and her went to Cambridge to clean the car and change their clothes and then back to Woodstock right? The police i believe stated that they pinged MR cell phone in mount forest at 750ish? TLM says that MR dropped her off at 9.00pm in Woodstock?? Well, what I don't get IF i have the times right, that MR would not have had time to drive from Mount Forest to Cambridge clean his car, change their clothing and then back to Woodstock in that time frame. Does anyone have the correct time of MR cell phone ping and the time TLM says MR dropped her off in Woodstock?

I believe TLM's account was vague about the time she got back to Woodstock. I think she said sometime between 9-10pm. But what is interesting is that they left Guelph headed for the crime scene just after 5pm. The drive to the location should be just under an hour. So they must have arrived there around 6pm. And they were still there at 7:47pm, likely just leaving which is why he was checking his phone. That's a lot of time for a walk while a murder takes place and then moving a deceased body to a rock pile. You'd think he would have wanted to get out of there quick. Or did he walk to Mt Forest and back while all that was going on? :waitasec:

MOO

nettie_82
04-12-2012, 10:59 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
In some spots sperm fraction was found, semen was ruled out as being present. But, surface may have been washed, McLean says.

Did TLM not testify the car was shampooed at the car wash? I must go find a tweet now.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 10:59 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Showing the passenger front seat, where semen was found.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
There was also McClintic's DNA on the seat.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
This was the only place in the vehicle that McLean has determined semen was certainly present.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Derstine reminds the court McClintic's DNA (likely) was found nearby

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
McLean says the stains on the front passenger seat are the only stains she can conclusively say are from semen.

daisy.faithfull
04-12-2012, 11:00 AM
Another thought about the male DNA. They could not identify who the male dna belonged to (right?). Did MR buy the car used? If so, is it possible the male dna stain belonged to a former owner? If he bought the car used, it could have come from any male on the planet. I wonder if Derstine is going to bring that up as well now? :(

I suppose at this point anything could be possible. Even if he bought the car used, just because MTR owned the car doesn't mean that someone else's sperm couldn't have gotten on the moulding.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 11:03 AM
RaffertyLFP: Court is shown photo of Goodlife Fitness bag Derstine asks about size of the blood stain McLean said it is "a fraction of millimetre

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Moving on to the gym bag. Derstine notes blood spot was invisible to naked eye. McLean agrees.

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Derstine is questioning McLean about the blood on the gym bag found in #Rafferty's car. Said yesterday could be Rafferty's and Tori's blood.

RaffertyLFP: There were several sources of DNA in the blood stain McLean said blood was one source but there could have been other sources

Kamille
04-12-2012, 11:04 AM
But in REALITY what are the chances they weren't???

One in 28 billion? :waitasec: :floorlaugh:

I think it's obvious, as we had to have known when they decided to proceed with this trial after discovery, that all of the forensics in this case are not going to be useful to figuring out what happened. Way too much time evolved, way too much evidence was destroyed or compromised in some way and so this case will have to be solved with good old fashioned common sense.

MOO

Bravo
04-12-2012, 11:05 AM
I think this explains it

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
In some spots sperm fraction was found, semen was ruled out as being present. But, surface may have been washed, McLean says.

robynhood
04-12-2012, 11:05 AM
...now I am really confused too...HELP...Did they not identify at least one sample as M.R and it was quoted that the chances of it not being MR"S was next to impossible ? ......PLEaSE someone let us know that I am not lousy it here ...so very confusing by the last questions from defense......hope a poster clarifies this ....????....Salem or Swede or Matou usually do .....confused too???.....robynhood

Bravo
04-12-2012, 11:05 AM
Semen is the fluid containing sperm.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 11:07 AM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
McLean stresses that of the 3 sources of DNA on the gym bag 1 is from blood. Doesn't mean all 3 came from blood

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Derstine has a sheet showing ways three different DNA profiles could be in one spot (like on the gym bag). McLean given time to look at it.

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Derstine presents McLean w a doc that lists the different ways 3 types of DNA could end up on the gym bag. Morning recess called


RaffertyLFP: Derstine presents McLean with different scenarios for mixed DNA sample - Court takes 20 minute recess

daisy.faithfull
04-12-2012, 11:07 AM
with the amount of DNA in the car and the locations of where it was found tells a story but so does the lack of DNA.

Yes, but there are many possible stories/reasons for what we aren't seeing. First, how do we know that something that isn't there ever was there. And even if it never was there that doesn't mean that something happened that could have put it there. YKWIM? :)

CarrieBean
04-12-2012, 11:08 AM
I think this explains it

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
In some spots sperm fraction was found, semen was ruled out as being present. But, surface may have been washed, McLean says.

But they're saying it may not have come from semen. I hope she explains herself.

Salem
04-12-2012, 11:08 AM
Firstly, its my first attempt at bringing a quote from a closed board forward, so pls forgive me if I've done so badly! Secondly, I added the bold in the quote for clarity.

I was wondering whether there was any way for the forensics to determine how fresh the sperm was that they found? However unlikely, is it possible that the sperm was already there when Tori's blood :( got in the car? I'm not asking as a means to defend MR, so pls don't take it that way but I do wonder whether this is a point his defense might ask the witness about. If there is no way to tell how old it was, then will Derstine say the blood sample was contaminated by his sperm which was already there from prior sexual acts in his car? Clearly he was boinking at least TLM and who knows who else in that car.

Of course Derstine will say this. He has to defend his client with any means possible within the law. It will be for the jury to look at all the evidence presented, both direct evidence and circumstantial evidence, weigh it against any defense that Derstine/MR present and determine the truth of the matter to the best of their ability.

The jury has much more info than we do - they have seen the tape of TLM's confession as well as her testimony in court. They have heard ALL of the scientific explanations/theories (where we are only getting tweets). I think the jury will weigh all the factors and come to a conclusion. Whatever they decide - unlike the CA case, where we had ALL the info, I will not argue with this jury's decision because they have so much more info than we do.

Salem

Macright
04-12-2012, 11:10 AM
this is getting stranger by the minute...I thought the crown told us that forensic evidence will tell the tale..so far I am not convinced...the blond hairs have thrown me for a loop..can they not even tell whether they are human...

daisy.faithfull
04-12-2012, 11:11 AM
I believe TLM's account was vague about the time she got back to Woodstock. I think she said sometime between 9-10pm. But what is interesting is that they left Guelph headed for the crime scene just after 5pm. The drive to the location should be just under an hour. So they must have arrived there around 6pm. And they were still there at 7:47pm, likely just leaving which is why he was checking his phone. That's a lot of time for a walk while a murder takes place and then moving a deceased body to a rock pile. You'd think he would have wanted to get out of there quick. Or did he walk to Mt Forest and back while all that was going on? :waitasec:

MOO

I have a time frame of 9 to 10 pm in my notes for when they returned to Woodstock, but I don't know which article I got that from.

And when I was looking at the timeline this am I wondered about how long they stayed in MF afterwords too.

Oldsoul2
04-12-2012, 11:12 AM
All that is needed is reasonable doubt

And if were going to be reasonable, like I posted before, what's the chance of that happening on two different occasions? Than the defense is basically saying that this crime occured in the car, doubtful

robynhood
04-12-2012, 11:13 AM
Bravo ...I understand what you posted ...but defense is say sperm just got there ....very confused ???/....robynhood ...thanks ...help ..confused along with Kamille????

Bravo
04-12-2012, 11:20 AM
Bravo ...I understand what you posted ...but defense is say sperm just got there ....very confused ???/....robynhood ...thanks ...help ..confused along with Kamille????

Perhaps trying to imply that it was merely a transfer after one of Rafferty's liasons.

Oldsoul2
04-12-2012, 11:26 AM
Also, they have a witness and a conviction from someone who was there saying this is what happened. She has nothing to lose and it seems everything she said occured is showing in all the evidence, we can't disclude that.

CarrieBean
04-12-2012, 11:28 AM
Of course not, but we're not on the jury

Salem
04-12-2012, 11:28 AM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)

There were two DNA profiles. One was male.


This is huge to me. That it is possible MR's blood was also on these shoes. Wow!

Salem

daisy.faithfull
04-12-2012, 11:29 AM
The spot where the little x is to refresh my web browser on my iPad is going to be worn down. I'm grateful that they okayed tweets from the court, but sometimes it is so frustrating how long it takes to get one little scrap of info. Urg!

Anyways, thank you to the re-tweeters here at Websleuths for all your hard work!

nettie_82
04-12-2012, 11:32 AM
They did shampoo the car.

AM980.ca ‏
They shampooed the inside to the car. McClintic cleaned the floor mats at a separate bay.

daisy.faithfull
04-12-2012, 11:32 AM
This is huge to me. That it is possible MR's blood was also on these shoes. Wow!

Salem

It's not as likely that he would have gotten blood spatter on his shoes if he wasn't around when the injuries were occurring.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 11:34 AM
Jury has returned. Derstine's page back on the screen.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
The page has a series of ways three people's DNA may be on the same spot.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 11:34 AM
Close
Rafferty trial Day 21 (04/12/2012)

11:33 Mike Knoll: Hank Daniszewski is tweeting from the overflow courtroom. Here is his morning update:
Dirk Derstine, the defense attorney for Michael Rafferty, attempted Thursday to discount the DNA evidence linking Tori Stafford to Rafferty's car.

Derstine's cross examination of forensic expert Jennifer McLean began Thursday morning in Rafferty's murder trial.

McLean agreed with Derstine that there are a number of ways that DNA can be transferred to an object.

McLean also agreed that "sperm cell" DNA traces found in multiple sites in Rafferty's car did not necessarily come from semen. McLean said there was only one sample from the car that was definitely linked to semen.

Derstine then focused on the tiny spot of blood on a gym bag in the back seat that appeared to have mixed DNA from Stafford Rafferty and other sources.

Derstine presented McLean with a number of scenarios on how mixed DNA could have appeared on the bag.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 11:36 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine suggests different scenario for DNA deposits on gym bag - all three at once, one at a time two plus one etc

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Hard to count the possible ways. More than a dozen.

RaffertyLFP: McLean agrees there are more than a dozen ways that DNA from three people could have ended up in one deposit

snoofer
04-12-2012, 11:37 AM
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it, does it still make a sound? Just because evidence is not there does not mean it was never there ie it was washed, or cutaway. It doesn't mean that Tori was not raped by MTR. IMO

Salem
04-12-2012, 11:38 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine said there was sperm fraction in the blood spot but it does not mean it came from semen, McLean agrees

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Derstine asks about cut out back seat. There's a sperm fraction on the material, but not certainly from semen.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
There was no semen detected in the back seat. No way to determine where sperm fraction cella came from.

RBBM: What the heck doess it mean then? If it doesn't come from sperm, why do they call it "sperm fraction" and where else could it come from? That makes no sense????

Salem

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 11:39 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Options include person A, B, C. Example "A is deposited, is later exposed/mixed to B, is later exposed/mixed to C."

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Various other scenarios like this in the sheet. All are possible, McLean says.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Stains don't have to be the same size to be a match, Derstine says. McLean agrees.

robynhood
04-12-2012, 11:41 AM
..Hey salam can you please explain websleuth's time clock as it seems to be behind 2 hours from us here in s. Ontario & london court ...another confusion as when they say 20 min recess...it is now 11;39 in Toronto/London court and time clock on websleuth site says approx 9;30 ....tweets and post get us all confused too ...sorry I am going back on tweeter to find out if they are back in court ?????....very frustrated with all of this today ...robynhood..

Macright
04-12-2012, 11:43 AM
It's not as likely that he would have gotten blood spatter on his shoes if he wasn't around when the injuries were occurring.


but wasn't the blood found inside the shoe?:maddening:

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 11:44 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Derstine asking about McClintic's shoes. He asks about DNA retention on soft surfaces.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine asks McLean about washing the "Shaq" shoes - how much washing would eliminate DNA?

RaffertyLFP: Derstine asks if soap and water washing would eliminate DNA from shoes? McLean agrees it could

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
"Hard to quantify" how much washing would take away DNA, Derstine says. McLean agrees "from a common sense perspective".

Bravo
04-12-2012, 11:45 AM
Could Defense be implying it came from McClintic? After they had done the nasty? Transferred from her hand/s?

CarrieBean
04-12-2012, 11:46 AM
..Hey salam can you please explain websleuth's time clock as it seems to be behind 2 hours from us here in s. Ontario & london court ...another confusion as when they say 20 min recess...it is now 11;39 in Toronto/London court and time clock on websleuth site says approx 9;30 ....tweets and post get us all confused too ...sorry I am going back on tweeter to find out if they are back in court ?????....very frustrated with all of this today ...robynhood..

I think you can change your time zone somewhere in your settings. I'm in N. Ontario and my time is ok on here.

ETA: I sent you instructions on how to change it

Salem
04-12-2012, 11:47 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Showing the passenger front seat, where semen was found.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
There was also McClintic's DNA on the seat.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
This was the only place in the vehicle that McLean has determined semen was certainly present.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Derstine reminds the court McClintic's DNA (likely) was found nearby

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
McLean says the stains on the front passenger seat are the only stains she can conclusively say are from semen.

I wonder if they had sex again, after the washing of the car and the events of Apr. 8th. Do we know if they were in contact before TLM got arrested? We know that MR visited TLM at the jail..... hmmmm....

Salem

Oldsoul2
04-12-2012, 11:47 AM
They did shampoo the car.

AM980.ca ‏
They shampooed the inside to the car. McClintic cleaned the floor mats at a separate bay.

He had months to get rid of evidence and yet still there's forensics. I just don't see how the jury will fall for this defense. IMO

Kamille
04-12-2012, 11:48 AM
They did shampoo the car.

AM980.ca ‏
They shampooed the inside to the car. McClintic cleaned the floor mats at a separate bay.

BBM

Interesting...I don't remember seeing any floor mats in the back of that car in any of the evidence photos. You'd think they'd have been tested if they were there. I guess they went the way of the seat? Maybe he didn't think they'd gotten them clean enough either? Or was she referring to front mats only? :waitasec:

MOO

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 11:48 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Now looking at the puma shoes. Derstine says no way to know when the shoes got blood on them.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Derstine reminded by McLean about blonde hairs on the coat. She said one of the hairs excluded Tori's DNA. The other undetermined.

~n/t~
04-12-2012, 11:49 AM
I see the defense is trying to confuse the jury. Nice try but the facts are the DNA found were 1 in billions or trillions that it belonged to foreign source. Furthermore, we know the car was washed and items thrown out and possible washing of shoes and coat.

But who knows. It might work for this jury. Baez did the same thing and it worked for 12 jurors in Florida. He had a flip charts and markers and all that new tech stuff <sarcasm>

Nah...doubt it would happen here. lol

~n/t~
04-12-2012, 11:50 AM
Common sense! Key words!

Salem
04-12-2012, 11:51 AM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
McLean stresses that of the 3 sources of DNA on the gym bag 1 is from blood. Doesn't mean all 3 came from blood

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Derstine has a sheet showing ways three different DNA profiles could be in one spot (like on the gym bag). McLean given time to look at it.

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Derstine presents McLean w a doc that lists the different ways 3 types of DNA could end up on the gym bag. Morning recess called


RaffertyLFP: Derstine presents McLean with different scenarios for mixed DNA sample - Court takes 20 minute recess

They pick the best times ever to go on break :banghead::banghead:

Kamille
04-12-2012, 11:52 AM
but wasn't the blood found inside the shoe?:maddening:

Anyone else wondering if the shoes he gave TLM to wear that night after she threw hers out the window were the same ones he himself was wearing prior to the alleged assault and murder? Did she say whether or not he had his shoes off for the assault? Sure looks like Puma shoes in the gas station ATM video. :waitasec:

But finding DNA traces of blood in anyone's shoes would be pretty normal I would think. People get blisters and foot injuries often IMO.

MOO

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 11:52 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine asked about blond hairs on pea coat. McLean repeats that Stafford was excluded from one of the hairs from coat that was tested

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Showing a leather coat found in Rafferty's car. First time jury has seen it. It was also tested.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
There was three sets of DNA on the coat. One was likely Rafferty, the other two unnamed.

Salem
04-12-2012, 11:52 AM
Yes, but there are many possible stories/reasons for what we aren't seeing. First, how do we know that something that isn't there ever was there. And even if it never was there that doesn't mean that something happened that could have put it there. YKWIM? :)

My thought is that there are traces of the something that isn't there showing that it was there.....

Salem

CarrieBean
04-12-2012, 11:53 AM
I see the defense is trying to confuse the jury. Nice try but the facts are the DNA found were 1 in billions or trillions that it belonged to foreign source. Furthermore, we know the car was washed and items thrown out and possible washing of shoes and coat.

But who knows. It might work for this jury. Baez did the same thing and it worked for 12 jurors in Florida. He had a flip charts and markers and all that new tech stuff <sarcasm>

Nah...doubt it would happen here. lol

I sure as hell hope not, but can't help being concerned about it.

daisy.faithfull
04-12-2012, 11:54 AM
RBBM: What the heck doess it mean then? If it doesn't come from sperm, why do they call it "sperm fraction" and where else could it come from? That makes no sense????

Salem


"the sperm cells are treated with some extra chemicals to help remove them from the substrate and also break them open. This is called a sperm fraction."

http://books.google.com/books?id=LnKN73kqZuoC&pg=PA68&lpg=PA68&dq=sperm+fraction&source=bl&ots=91MYRgIODu&sig=g3u10EPwanUFyvU45ywU3ncRZCw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZviGT5OsM-e-8AGF2unDCA#v=onepage&q=sperm%20fraction&f=false

I had to look it up, because I sure didn't learn about that in biology class.

Juris_Prudence
04-12-2012, 11:55 AM
My thought is that there are traces of the something that isn't there showing that it was there.....

Salem

Well gee Salem, that was clear as MUD! :waitasec: lol.

Kamille
04-12-2012, 11:55 AM
My thought is that there are traces of the something that isn't there showing that it was there.....

Salem

Well we know that Victoria was in that car for at least 21/2 hours. Amazing how they found no DNA of her presence there at all other than between the door and the frame. Not a hair. Must have been a good cleaning job.

MOO

lightlady
04-12-2012, 11:56 AM
I will be interested to hear the defense's view on the back seat. To me the evidence that there were pieces cut out and that the back seat was removed are very damning. Given TLM's testimony, that was likely to have a lot of evidence, and it is unclear why it would be cut up and removed just from cleanup if something didn't happen there.

~n/t~
04-12-2012, 11:56 AM
He had months to get rid of evidence and yet still there's forensics. I just don't see how the jury will fall for this defense. IMO

Hope this jury is focused on the real facts of the case and not the defense's futile attempt at confusing the jury. He admitted MR helped cover up the crime scene. How did Tori get there? TLM doesn't drive!

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 11:57 AM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Another spot on the coat had three individuals DNA. Rafferty likely one of them.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
McLean says it is possible no sperm or semen was on Tori's body. None was found, but not expected to be due to decomposition.

daisy.faithfull
04-12-2012, 11:59 AM
but wasn't the blood found inside the shoe?:maddening:

Was it? On the shoe, in the shoe... It's more likely that his shoe would have blood anywhere on it if it was at the crime scene when the crime was occurring I thought it was reported that Rafferty did not take his shoes off, but even if they were on, they could have gotten on the edge and gotten into the shoe.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 11:59 AM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine shifts focus to attempts to get DNA from Tori's body, McLean agrees that decomposition makes it difficult

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
"You can't tell us if Michael Rafferty had sex with Tori Stafford," Derstine says. McLean says she only tested for detection of fluids

RaffertyLFP: Derstine wraps up cross examination of McLean

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
McLean also agrees that DNA evidence doesn't prove Tori and Rafferty were in the car together at the same time. No more questions.

Juris_Prudence
04-12-2012, 12:00 PM
Well we know that Victoria was in that car for at least 21/2 hours. Amazing how they found no DNA of her presence there at all other than between the door and the frame. Not a hair. Must have been a good cleaning job.

MOO

And yet they found a sliver of car seat fabric that had been cut out. How good a cleaning job was it then that they found this, and precious little else? :banghead: :maddening:

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:03 PM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Having some Internet troubles in the courthouse. Will be back to tweeting momentarily.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Melanie LaBute is the next witness. Venne handles the questions.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
She's 39. Worked at Staples in Woodstock in spring 2009.

Kamille
04-12-2012, 12:04 PM
And yet they found a sliver of car seat fabric that had been cut out. How good a cleaning job was it then that they found this, and precious little else? :banghead: :maddening:

It fell off the seat when he was removing it. Days after the shampoo deep clean.

MOO

puppyraiser
04-12-2012, 12:04 PM
Well gee Salem, that was clear as MUD! :waitasec: lol.

When the prosecutor said to "listen closely to the DNA evidence", he wasn't kidding. It's all so convoluted to a layperson and IMO sure doesn't prove anything, except that a tiny drop of blood on the door frame belonging to anyone other than Tori is astronomical odds. The location of said droplet is not in a place one would expect it to be, if it was deposited entering or exiting the vehicle.

Sure hope there's more evidence than what's been presented so far.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:05 PM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Jennifer McLean says 1 of the blonde hairs found on coat was tested, female DNA found. Wasn't Tori's or Terri-Lynne McClintic's.

~n/t~
04-12-2012, 12:05 PM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine shifts focus to attempts to get DNA from Tori's body, McLean agrees that decomposition makes it difficult

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
"You can't tell us if Michael Rafferty had sex with Tori Stafford," Derstine says. McLean says she only tested for detection of fluids

RaffertyLFP: Derstine wraps up cross examination of McLean

Ummm...Derstine.....she's the scientist not the Medical Examiner. I wish McLean would've answered it that way. Canadians are too polite. lol

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:05 PM
RaffertyLFP: The next witness is another former girlfriend of Michael Rafferty. She worked at Staples in Woodstock - He was a customer and chatted her up

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
She met Rafferty at Staples. Asked her if she knew any good places to eat in Woodstock (he was new to town). They exchanged numbers

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Defence done with McLean. She is excused. Melanie LaButte called. She met #Rafferty in a Staples. Said she would show him around Woodstock.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:06 PM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
She offered to show him around town in March 09 (when try met).

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
On a Friday night, he asked if she had plans. She offered meeting friends with him at Crabby Joe's.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
She didn't want to meet him alone, she says.

Kamille
04-12-2012, 12:08 PM
Good lord, more girlfriends? Didn't he just move back to Woodstock at the beginning of the year? Is this number 6 or 7 within a 4 month period? :waitasec:

MOO

pattywack
04-12-2012, 12:08 PM
Was it? On the shoe, in the shoe... It's more likely that his shoe would have blood anywhere on it if it was at the crime scene when the crime was occurring I thought it was reported that Rafferty did not take his shoes off, but even if they were on, they could have gotten on the edge and gotten into the shoe.

The shoes were likely in the bag .If there was blood in the bag possibly the bag was unzippered. He was not wearing the shoes. Didn't he loan them to TLM to wear? MMO

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:09 PM
RaffertyLFP: They exhanged phone numbers and later in the week they met at a Crabby Joes in Woodstock this was March 2009

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Rafferty "wasn't a big drinker" LaBute says. They weren't there for long. Left Crabby's around midnight.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Rafferty drove her home. They talked in his car. Made plans to meet up for breakfast the next morning.

~n/t~
04-12-2012, 12:10 PM
Good lord, more girlfriends? Didn't he just move back to Woodstock at the beginning of the year? Is this number 6 or 7 within a 4 month period? :waitasec:

MOO

Right....and remember he told the cops he didn't know too many people. :liar:

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:11 PM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
LaBute says the car was dirty, white washed interior. She didn't stare at the car. She's not a car person.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
She saw Tim Horton's cups in the back. Venne asks if there was a car seat in the back. She says yes. Blankets were over top.

RaffertyLFP: The woman described Rafferty's car - said the inside was "whitewashed" but the overall look was dirty and littered

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
She doesn't remember seeing the bottom portion of the back seat.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:13 PM
RaffertyLFP: The next day they went to Cora's breakfast place in London but they couldn't find it. He appeared nervous always on phone

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
He picked her up at 11 the next morning. Tried to go to a breakfast place in London, couldn't find it. Just got a coffee.

RaffertyLFP: Rafferty told her he worked as a hiring person for construction sites, that why he was always on the phone

Kamille
04-12-2012, 12:16 PM
RaffertyLFP: The next day they went to Cora's breakfast place in London but they couldn't find it. He appeared nervous always on phone

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
He picked her up at 11 the next morning. Tried to go to a breakfast place in London, couldn't find it. Just got a coffee.

RaffertyLFP: Rafferty told her he worked as a hiring person for construction sites, that why he was always on the phone

Another new job title. :floorlaugh:

MOO

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:16 PM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Rafferty told her he used his phone constantly for work. Told her he hired other people to do construction work. He apologized to LaBute.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Rafferty's car "seemed really, really dirty" the next day.

RaffertyLFP: The woman said the car was still very dirty - back seat covered with blanket and litter

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:17 PM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
LaBute "already knew she wasn't interested" in Rafferty. He "seemed really needy."

RaffertyLFP: The woman said Rafferty talked about going out to dinner but she lost interest - seemed really "needy"

RaffertyLFP: Raffferty later called her asking why she hadn't called She got annoyed and arranged meeting at coffee shop to break it off

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
He asked about dinner. She never called him back. He called again days later, wondering why she hadn't called. She eventually agreed to meet

nobodyzgirl
04-12-2012, 12:18 PM
I see the defense is trying to confuse the jury. Nice try but the facts are the DNA found were 1 in billions or trillions that it belonged to foreign source. Furthermore, we know the car was washed and items thrown out and possible washing of shoes and coat.

But who knows. It might work for this jury. Baez did the same thing and it worked for 12 jurors in Florida. He had a flip charts and markers and all that new tech stuff <sarcasm>

Nah...doubt it would happen here. lol


You can't tell us if Michael Rafferty had sex with Tori Stafford," Derstine says. McLean says she only tested for detection of fluids

McLean also agrees that DNA evidence doesn't prove Toro and Rafferty were in the car together at the same time. No more questions

They are attempting to create reasonable doubt, my understanding of the cross examination was to show that the DNA and blood found and the samples taken and tested could have happened at any time and not necessarily at the same time, which could create doubt that MR and Tori were in the car together at the same time. Also the fact that DNA was found, does not mean that a sexual assault occurred. I personally think they have created doubt and no doubt I'm from a small minority that think the defence is doing a good job at creating reasonable doubt. At the end of it, it doesn't matter what I think, it is what the jury thinks that is important. JMO

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:19 PM
RaffertyLFP: The woman said they made small talk , she said had to get to a rehearsal, She left and had not further contact with him

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
LaButte says #Rafferty met her and friends for drinks. He drove her home. They drove to London next day for breakfast.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
It was a Saturday, a week after breakfast drive. They talked. Rafferty offered to drive her to rehearsal for a play. She said no.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Never saw him again. No more questions from Venne. None from Derstine.

Oldsoul2
04-12-2012, 12:19 PM
RaffertyLFP: The next witness is another former girlfriend of Michael Rafferty. She worked at Staples in Woodstock - He was a customer and chatted her up

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
She met Rafferty at Staples. Asked her if she knew any good places to eat in Woodstock (he was new to town). They exchanged numbers

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Defence done with McLean. She is excused. Melanie LaButte called. She met #Rafferty in a Staples. Said she would show him around Woodstock.

Another one! I can't follow, he's a serial dater amongst other things, wow women play a huge role in his life

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:21 PM
RaffertyLFP: Michael Griswold is next witness,

RaffertyLFP: Griswold is a Woodstock resident and lived on Tennyson St. a neighbor of Rafferty

RaffertyLFP: Griswold said he helped moved Rafferty to Woodstock from Guelph He also moved Rafferty's car

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:23 PM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Carnegie handles the questions. Griswold lives in Woodstock, did in 2009.

RaffertyLFP: Griswold towed Rafferty's car - he said it had no clutch and ripped back bumper this was March 2008

fats
04-12-2012, 12:23 PM
RaffertyLFP: The next day they went to Cora's breakfast place in London but they couldn't find it. He appeared nervous always on phone

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
He picked her up at 11 the next morning. Tried to go to a breakfast place in London, couldn't find it. Just got a coffee.

RaffertyLFP: Rafferty told her he worked as a hiring person for construction sites, that why he was always on the phone

Does BA also "supply" the constructions site with workers? What a liar--love to see the phone log--that must tell a lot about MR. Do you think MR was picking up lots of girls and didn't have the nerve to go ahead with his goulish ways---then decided to try a younger girl? He is a pervert and behavior in such people often starts out voyeuristic and then escalates?

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:24 PM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Griswold lived on Tennyson near Rafferty. He helped him move to Woodstock from Guelph.

Please tweet having problems

Oldsoul2
04-12-2012, 12:24 PM
Didn't this very same thing happen with TLM? She met him, slept with him then didn't call him so he showed up at her house and the rest is history.

snoofer
04-12-2012, 12:26 PM
When the prosecutor said to "listen closely to the DNA evidence", he wasn't kidding. It's all so convoluted to a layperson and IMO sure doesn't prove anything, except that a tiny drop of blood on the door frame belonging to anyone other than Tori is astronomical odds. The location of said droplet is not in a place one would expect it to be, if it was deposited entering or exiting the vehicle.

Sure hope there's more evidence than what's been presented so far.

Derstine asks the experts you can't say it means ________. The thing is with DNA is it can tell the who but it takes lawyers to interpret the what, where, when, how and why. So it is unfair and misleading for Derstine to ask that question of an expert who is to determine the "who" of DNA only.:moo:

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:26 PM
RaffertyLFP: Griswold later saw Rafferty driving the car. He also saw it parked in the driveway or on the street at 70 Tennyson

RaffertyLFP: Griswold points out Rafferty's house on an aerial view

RaffertyLFP: Griswold said he went over to complain once about loud music from Rafferty's car

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:27 PM
Griswold lived on Tennyson near Rafferty. He helped him move to Woodstock from Guelph.

Rafferty moved to Woodstock in March 2008. Helped him move his car, as well.

Car had no clutch during the moved. Was taken on a car dolly. Clutch was soon replaced. Griswold points out where Rafferty lived on a photo

Griswold said the music in Rafferty's car was too loud, early in the morning.

He mentions spring clean up in Woodstock. Large items are allowed to be put on the curb. City picks them up, or public can pick up items

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:28 PM
RaffertyLFP: Griswold said he went over to complain once about loud music from Rafferty's car

During clean up, there was garbage in front of Rafferty's home, near the end of April.

RaffertyLFP: Griswold recalls a spring cleanup week He said there was garbage in front of Rafferty's house

Salem
04-12-2012, 12:31 PM
During clean up, there was garbage in front of Rafferty's home, near the end of April.

He mentions spring clean up in Woodstock. Large items are allowed to be put on the curb. City picks them up, or public can pick up items.

Griswold said the music in Rafferty's car was too loud, early in the morning.

Car had no clutch during the moved. Was taken on a car dolly. Clutch was soon replaced. Griswold points out where Rafferty lived on a photo

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:31 PM
RaffertyLFP: Griswold is reviewing a prior statement he made to police in May 2009 to refresh his memory

Carnegie shows Griswold a witness synopsis. Has details he gave to police. He told police the garbage was at Rafferty's home April 15/

RaffertyLFP: Griswold said the spring cleanup was around April 15 ,2009 He said he looked at the garbage pile in front of Rafferty's house

Griswold says he looked through the pile in front of the home. There was a ripped car seat.

snoofer
04-12-2012, 12:31 PM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
She offered to show him around town in March 09 (when try met).

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
On a Friday night, he asked if she had plans. She offered meeting friends with him at Crabby Joe's.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
She didn't want to meet him alone, she says.

smart girl!:moo:

Ardy
04-12-2012, 12:31 PM
I have to keep reminding myself this is the Crown presenting their case, because it sounds more like expert testimony that would come from an expert defense witness.

Salem
04-12-2012, 12:34 PM
Carnegie shows Griswold a witness synopsis. Has details he gave to police. He told police the garbage was at Rafferty's home April 15/09

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:36 PM
Damn it...computer problems again

snoofer
04-12-2012, 12:36 PM
Another new job title. :floorlaugh:

MOO

ooo HR (human resources manager) :floorlaugh::twocents:

CarrieBean
04-12-2012, 12:36 PM
smart girl!:moo:

It sounds like he went through a few smart girls before he met his match.

Salem
04-12-2012, 12:36 PM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Griswold says he looked through the pile in front of the home. There was a ripped car seat.


There was also foam in the garbage pile.

Salem
04-12-2012, 12:38 PM
Damn it...computer problems again

I'm trying to help. How do I force the tweet page to come up in a separate window? Do you know?

Salem

Oldsoul2
04-12-2012, 12:38 PM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Griswold says he looked through the pile in front of the home. There was a ripped car seat.


There was also foam in the garbage pile.

And...there it is..

Salem
04-12-2012, 12:39 PM
The garbage was out for 4 or 5 days before it was picked up.

Griswold says the seat was in the car when he picked up the vehicle in Guelph. No more questions.

80.ca ‏ @AM980_Court

snoofer
04-12-2012, 12:40 PM
Right....and remember he told the cops he didn't know too many people. :liar:

and in the audio he told LE he didn't go to London with a girlfriend hmmmm. Some of these gfs also have been shall we say "associates" for oxy.:twocents:

Salem
04-12-2012, 12:40 PM
Salior - can you post the link so I can click it and get it in a separate window instead of just on a tab? That would help me immensely....

Salem

matou
04-12-2012, 12:40 PM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190478382545371137)The garbage was out for 4 or 5 days before it was picked up

@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)


(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190478601748090880)Griswold says the seat was in the car when he picked up the vehicle in Guelph. No more questions.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:41 PM
salem just open the tweet windows and copy XOX Thank you

Oldsoul2
04-12-2012, 12:41 PM
He commits a crime and BOLDLY throws out the seat in the garbage right in front of the house, sooooo sure TLM would take the fall for this one

matou
04-12-2012, 12:41 PM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190479288217243648)Griswold says he noticed Rafferty remove the seat and put it in his shed March 29th, 09. He is read his synopsis, now remembers.

@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)


(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190479524453031936)Derstine asks if chunks were cut out of the seat. Griswold says no. Just one cut. No more questions.

Salem
04-12-2012, 12:42 PM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Derstine suggests seat was removed to put in speakers in March 2009. Asks if he saw the car seat placed in the shed. He says no.


Griswold says he noticed Rafferty remove the seat and put it in his shed March 29th, 09. He is read his synopsis, now remembers.

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:43 PM
Salior - can you post the link so I can click it and get it in a separate window instead of just on a tab? That would help me immensely....

Salem

salem I can't copy and paste for some reason. I'll shut down and refresh and post all I missed xo

matou
04-12-2012, 12:43 PM
‏ @AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190479755672420352)Crown calls David Pushie.

‏ @AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)


(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190479999281795073)Pushie used to live in Tennyson, near Rafferty.

Salem
04-12-2012, 12:43 PM
Derstine asks if chunks were cut out of the seat. Griswold says no. Just one cut. No more questions.

AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court
Crown calls David Pushie.

snoofer
04-12-2012, 12:44 PM
Another one! I can't follow, he's a serial dater amongst other things, wow women play a huge role in his life

women or what he thinks he can get from them..ie TLM, BA and so on.....:twocents:

matou
04-12-2012, 12:45 PM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190480153963544577)Pushie lived across the street. Never spoke to Rafferty.

Oldsoul2
04-12-2012, 12:45 PM
If he was in fact putting in speakers, why would he throw out his back seat after?

matou
04-12-2012, 12:46 PM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190480746908090372)Pushie also saw spring clean up pile.

matou
04-12-2012, 12:47 PM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190480905658310656)He also noticed a car back seat.

Salem
04-12-2012, 12:49 PM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court

Pushie used to live in Tennyson, near Rafferty.


Pushie lived across the street. Never spoke to Rafferty.

Pushie also saw spring clean up pile.

He also noticed a car back seat

Pushie says he saw the seat shortly after Easter.

matou
04-12-2012, 12:49 PM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190481190418001920)Pushie sayshe saw the seat shortly after Easter.

WOW! I can't believe he threw out the seat to regular garbage pick up. Amazing. JMO

CarrieBean
04-12-2012, 12:51 PM
Its' too bad that seat wasn't found

matou
04-12-2012, 12:51 PM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190481551572733952)No more questions for Pushie. None for Derstine.

@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)


(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190481673136242688)Lunch recess. Back at 2:15.

Salem
04-12-2012, 12:51 PM
AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court

No more questions for Pushie. None for Derstine.

Lunch recess until 2:15 p.m.

matou
04-12-2012, 12:55 PM
Question: I general, which human tissues and fluids contain sperm fractions?

snoofer
04-12-2012, 12:55 PM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190481190418001920)Pushie sayshe saw the seat shortly after Easter.

WOW! I can't believe he threw out the seat to regular garbage pick up. Amazing. JMO

Guess he felt comfortable that the body would not be found and that TLM would not rat on herself and him. At this time the seat was not being looked for by LE.:moo:

captaincanada
04-12-2012, 12:56 PM
As much as I think MR is guilty of something, I was expecting way more from the crown to prove the sexual assault charges. So far, nothing. I'm baffled. It appears they have nothing but TLM's story to base this charge on. :notgood:

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:57 PM
Griswold lived on Tennyson near Rafferty. He helped him move to Woodstock from Guelph.

Rafferty moved to Woodstock in March 2008. Helped him move his car, as well.

Car had no clutch during the moved. Was taken on a car dolly. Clutch was soon replaced. Griswold points out where Rafferty lived on a photo

Griswold said the music in Rafferty's car was too loud, early in the morning.

He mentions spring clean up in Woodstock. Large items are allowed to be put on the curb. City picks them up, or public can pick up items.

During clean up, there was garbage in front of Rafferty's home, near the end of April.

Carnegie shows Griswold a witness synopsis. Has details he gave to police. He told police the garbage was at Rafferty's home April 15/09

Griswold says he looked through the pile in front of the home. There was a ripped car seat.

There was also foam in the garbage pile.

The garbage was out for 4 or 5 days before it was picked up

Griswold says the seat was in the car when he picked up the vehicle in Guelph. No more questions.

Derstine suggests seat was removed to put in speakers in March 2009. Asks if he saw the car seat placed in the shed. He says no.

Griswold says he noticed Rafferty remove the seat and put it in his shed March 29th, 09. He is read his synopsis, now remembers.

Derstine asks if chunks were cut out of the seat. Griswold says no. Just one cut. No more questions.

Crown calls David Pushie.

Pushie used to live in Tennyson, near Rafferty.

Pushie lived across the street. Never spoke to Rafferty.

Pushie also saw spring clean up pile.

He also noticed a car back seat

Pushie sayshe saw the seat shortly after Easter.

No more questions for Pushie. None for Derstine.

Lunch recess. Back at 2:15.


AM980.ca ‏ @AM980_Court

Shasta
04-12-2012, 12:58 PM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190481190418001920)Pushie sayshe saw the seat shortly after Easter.

WOW! I can't believe he threw out the seat to regular garbage pick up. Amazing. JMO

BBM and respectfully quoting matou:
If MTR had been blessed with any brains he would have been more dangerous and continued undetected with more victims. I think he's getting tripped up by his own stupidity and tangled web of lies. JMO

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 12:59 PM
RaffertyLFP: Griswold said the spring cleanup was around April 15 ,2009 He said he looked at the garbage pile in front of Rafferty's house

RaffertyLFP: Griswold said he saw a ripped car seat in the garbage pile in front of Rafferty's house There was a love seat on top

RaffertyLFP: Derstine asks Griswold if he saw Rafferty remove the car seat late in March to install speakers

RaffertyLFP: Derstine asks Griswold if he saw Rafferty put the car seat in the shed - Griswold says no

RaffertyLFP: David Pushie is the next witness

RaffertyLFP: Pushie lived at 75 Tennyson St. in spring 2009 - Rafferty lived across the street

RaffertyLFP: Pushie said he never spoke to Rafferty. He told police in Spring 2009 that he saw the car seat in front of Rafferty's home covered by couch

RaffertyLFP: Pushie described it as the seat portion of a back seat He said the clean up happened about a week after Easter in 2009

RaffertyLFP: Court recesses until 2:15 p.m.

daisy.faithfull
04-12-2012, 01:01 PM
Question: I general, which human tissues and fluids contain sperm fractions?


Quote:
"the sperm cells are treated with some extra chemicals to help remove them from the substrate and also break them open. This is called a sperm fraction."


http://books.google.com/books?id=LnK...action&f=false

crazyladi
04-12-2012, 01:01 PM
I'm sorry DNA evidence may not be 100% conclusive but tlm testimony matches up almost completely. He is going down. He was there for the kidnapping he had the car he drove tlm to home depot knowing what she was going to buy he found the spot that was secluded in moo, he could have drove away, called police or atoll topped it from happening and he didn't he lied, destroyed evidence and thought that he would never get caught. Even if they can't prove the rape he is going down. Nothing destine can say will take away from the facts .

crazyladi
04-12-2012, 01:03 PM
Sorry my iPhone made some spelling errors. I meant he could have told someone

Oldsoul2
04-12-2012, 01:03 PM
That's why LE said they couldn't look through all the garbage apparently tons of it because it was too late by the time they were on to him to retrieve that car seat.

CarrieBean
04-12-2012, 01:03 PM
As much as I think MR is guilty of something, I was expecting way more from the crown to prove the sexual assault charges. So far, nothing. I'm baffled. It appears they have nothing but TLM's story to base this charge on. :notgood:

TLM's story that is being proven bit by bit, Tori's blood mixed with semen (dropped there at different times - highly doubt it), and not to mention the fact that she had no clothes on her lower body.

If I understand right, the only direct evidence is TLM's testimony, but there should be enough circumstantial evidence to come to the conclusion.

~n/t~
04-12-2012, 01:03 PM
Sorry I haven't been able to help with the tweets the last 2 days. I take one week off work and come back to disaster. :sigh:

MR was arrested May 19th, correct? I wonder when LE questioned these witnesses? Do we know if they checked the dump site for the car seat? I don't remember. Too late now but I guess I'm wondering if they did or didn't and if they did, was one or two month too much time lapse to retrieve something from a dump site.

matou
04-12-2012, 01:04 PM
Was it explained where sperm fractions or whole sperm cells come from, if not semen? I'm sorry, I just don't get it. JMO

Ardy
04-12-2012, 01:05 PM
JMO........The inside of the car was painted white before the abduction, and it wasn't "whitewashed" after the crime to hide evidence, as many had surmised.

The only evidence found on MR's pea coat that TLM said was used to cover VS in the back seat for a couple of hours, only contained 2 hair fibers, one which belonged to MR and one unknown female........but not VS. Where is the DNA?.....even saliva DNA..........nothing from VS?

The cut out chunks of foam appeared in the April pile of garbage, along with the car seat.

Didn't TLM testify she cut them out and threw them out the window along the 401?

MOO

~n/t~
04-12-2012, 01:06 PM
That's why LE said they couldn't look through all the garbage apparently tons of it because it was too late by the time they were on to him to retrieve that car seat.

Thanks...you answered my question.

Ardy
04-12-2012, 01:07 PM
TLM's story that is being proven bit by bit, Tori's blood mixed with semen (dropped there at different times - highly doubt it), and not to mention the fact that she had no clothes on her lower body.

If I understand right, the only direct evidence is TLM's testimony, but there should be enough circumstantial evidence to come to the conclusion.

I thought the expert said there was no semen present?

~n/t~
04-12-2012, 01:07 PM
JMO........The inside of the car was painted white before the abduction, and it wasn't "whitewashed" after the crime to hide evidence, as many had surmised.

The only evidence found on MR's pea coat that TLM said was used to cover VS in the back seat for a couple of hours, only contained 2 hair fibers, one which belonged to MR and one unknown female........but not VS. Where is the DNA?.....even saliva DNA..........nothing from VS?

The cut out chunks of foam appeared in the April pile of garbage, along with the car seat.

Didn't TLM testify she cut them out and threw them out the window along the 401?

MOO

How do you think Tori got to Mount Forest? Hitchhiked?

nettie_82
04-12-2012, 01:07 PM
I believe it has been said by various witnesses this far there were blankets in the back seat, I wonder if these blankets were ever found, or have ever been tested for DNA. MTR could have had a blanket laid out over the back seat during the rape and therefore not leaving much DNA evidence on the actual seat. Just a thought, nothing to back that up.

CarrieBean
04-12-2012, 01:10 PM
I thought the expert said there was no semen present?

I'm sure someone else is keeping much better track of all this and can find it, but if I'm not mistaken there was semen present in the one spot of TS's blood...just not enough to determine's who's.

snoofer
04-12-2012, 01:10 PM
:twocents:
I'm sorry DNA evidence may not be 100% conclusive but tlm testimony matches up almost completely. He is going down. He was there for the kidnapping he had the car he drove tlm to home depot knowing what she was going to buy he found the spot that was secluded in moo, he could have drove away, called police or atoll topped it from happening and he didn't he lied, destroyed evidence and thought that he would never get caught. Even if they can't prove the rape he is going down. Nothing destine can say will take away from the facts .

and if they acted together as the crown says..what is the motivator for a male to do this....statistics say it is sexual in nature

~n/t~
04-12-2012, 01:11 PM
Was it explained where sperm fractions or whole sperm cells come from, if not semen? I'm sorry, I just don't get it. JMO

I wish we had expert forensic analysts here to explain all of this in layperson terms for us.

I was hoping the Crown would have redirected and summarized it nicely. They haven't been doing that and it is really bugging me!!!!!! Perhaps what the tweets are not as detailed as direct testimony in court and we're just getting the bits and pieces and not the full picture?? :dunno:

I just hope this jury GETS IT!

CarrieBean
04-12-2012, 01:11 PM
How do you think Tori got to Mount Forest? Hitchhiked?

Or MR's remote control car TLM brought to Home Depot

snoofer
04-12-2012, 01:11 PM
the expert said the seat fibers found had been cut. TLM used HIS knife. JMO

matou
04-12-2012, 01:11 PM
Here's the thing, Tori's blood was found with at least a sperm fraction. How did the sperm fraction get there? Even if the nuclear DNA from the sperm fraction is not enough to profile, it is still a sperm. Sperm comes from that male ejaculate. I think the jury knows enough about how that works. JMO

daisy.faithfull
04-12-2012, 01:11 PM
Was it explained where sperm fractions or whole sperm cells come from, if not semen? I'm sorry, I just don't get it. JMO

Go back a bit in the thread for the little bit I got for a definition, but here is the link where I got it: http://books.google.com/books?id=LnK...action&f=false

ETA: I guess when they are analyzing the sperm they process it with some chemicals and the result is called sperm fraction.

So the sperm was found in the car, taken to the lab, they use whatever chemicals and the result is sperm faction.

Plus I fixed an autocorrect error

CarrieBean
04-12-2012, 01:13 PM
I wonder if a vacuum cleaner or shop vac canister was removed from MR's home for testing

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 01:14 PM
Was it explained where sperm fractions or whole sperm cells come from, if not semen? I'm sorry, I just don't get it. JMO

I don't get it...but I'm going to start reading:what:

DNA Testing: An Introduction For Non-Scientists
An Illustrated Explanation

Analysis of Separated Sperm and Non-Sperm Fractions.

In order to perform DNA typing on sperm DNA, it is desirable to separate the sperm DNA from any other DNA that may be present. For example, in swabbed materials from a rape evidence kit, the swabs may contain non-sperm cells from the victim as well as sperm and non-sperm cells from the rapist. To accomplish separation of the sperm cells, a process known as differential extraction is often performed. This involves lysing (breaking open) the non-sperm cells followed by spinning (centrifugation) the mixture to remove the still unbroken sperm cells. To do this, chemicals, usually an enzyme called proteinase K (PROTEIN-ACE-K) (breaks down most proteins), and a mild detergent (breaks down cellular membranes) are added to the original mixture of sperm and non-sperm cells. The enzyme and the mild detergent can lyse most cell types but not sperm because the sperm cell membranes have cross-linking chemical bonds called disulfides (pronounced DI-SUL-FIDES). Actually, the illustration below is slightly incorrect because the proteinase K does remove most of the sperm tails. These were left in the illustration to assist in following what happens to the sperm.
When the treated mixture is spun in a centrifuge, the sperm are forced to the bottom of the tube because they are dense. On the other hand, the broken, non-sperm cells are not very dense so they stay higher in the tube. This higher portion is called the supernatant and after the first spin in the centrifuge, the supernatant can be removed. The supernatant is referred to in various ways but usually it is called the non-sperm or the E1 fraction. The pellet (the material at the bottom of the tube) is called the sperm or E2 fraction. Usually, the pellet will be re-suspended in fresh liquid and re-spun to help purify it away from non-sperm DNA.

Finally, the sperm fraction is lysed (the sperm cells broken open) by adding a chemical called DTT. The DTT breaks the disulfide bonds releasing the sperm DNA.

The description of this procedure so far is quite ideal. It works pretty much as described for fresh samples. Even with fresh samples however, some of the non-sperm DNA will be trapped in the sperm pellet. This can be a major problem if the amount of sperm is very low or if the samples are aged and degraded. Often male cells, most likely immature sperm or white cells may end up in the supernatant, variously called the “female” fraction or “non-sperm” fraction

There are illustrations in the link




http://www.scientific.org/tutorials/articles/riley/riley.html

CarrieBean
04-12-2012, 01:15 PM
Go back a bit in the thread for the little bit I got for a definition, buheists is the link where I got it: http://books.google.com/books?id=LnK...action&f=false

I guess when they are analyzing the sperm they process it with some chemicals and the result is called sperm fraction.

I think what she's asking, and I'm wondering as well, is where did the sperm come from originally, if not from semen?

~n/t~
04-12-2012, 01:15 PM
Or MR's remote control car TLM brought to Home Depot

I had to re read that a couple of times until I finally got it!! :lol:

Macright
04-12-2012, 01:18 PM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190479288217243648)Griswold says he noticed Rafferty remove the seat and put it in his shed March 29th, 09. He is read his synopsis, now remembers.

@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)


(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190479524453031936)Derstine asks if chunks were cut out of the seat. Griswold says no. Just one cut. No more questions.



so the seat was removed the end of March and then thrown out with the general pickup in the area mid April...scratch another from TLM statement about cutting out parts of a back seat and thus the reason TS had to sit on the floor...wonder when we will find out the "car wash" was a figment of her imagination...I still believe he was there at the scene but his role is what I am having difficulty in trying to figure out... I also don't think he was "dating" TLM..more likely using her to obtain drugs... as they say..."hell has no fury"...:moo:

Ardy
04-12-2012, 01:18 PM
I believe it has been said by various witnesses this far there were blankets in the back seat, I wonder if these blankets were ever found, or have ever been tested for DNA. MTR could have had a blanket laid out over the back seat during the rape and therefore not leaving much DNA evidence on the actual seat. Just a thought, nothing to back that up.

That's a good point.

I am surprised that neither of the witnesses said anything about any blood on the seat. They also didn't say there were "chunks" cut out of it.......just that is was "ripped". There was foam also in the garbage, which could have been from the seats, or if he was installing speakers could have come from the packaging of the speakers......JMO

I

CarrieBean
04-12-2012, 01:21 PM
so the seat was removed the end of March and then thrown out with the general pickup in the area mid April...scratch another from TLM statement about cutting out parts of a back seat and thus the reason TS had to sit on the floor...wonder when we will find out the "car wash" was a figment of her imagination...I still believe he was there at the scene but his role is what I am having difficulty in trying to figure out... I also don't think he was "dating" TLM..more likely using her to obtain drugs... as they say..."hell has no fury"...:moo:

I'm not understanding what you mean in the bolded part. I didn't follow all of her testimony, but think she said she cut the seat after Tori was murdered due to a stain.

daisy.faithfull
04-12-2012, 01:26 PM
I think what she's asking, and I'm wondering as well, is where did the sperm come from originally, if not from semen?

Is it possible that that was an error on the part of the journalist/tweeter?

I guess none of us here are specialists at this stuff, but where else would sperm come from? I'm going to look on google some more..........

Macright
04-12-2012, 01:26 PM
I'm not understanding what you mean in the bolded part. I didn't follow all of her testimony, but think she said she cut the seat after Tori was murdered due to a stain.


sorry didn't post that correctly..brain thinking but fingers not staying in sync..what I meant was TLM said she cut pieces out of a seat that from what we heard today did not exist at the time of the murder..so scratch that from her statement of truth.. she also mentioned that little TS had to sit on the floor in the back so that would seem to have some truth to it IF the seat had been removed March 29 as the witness said today...

snoofer
04-12-2012, 01:26 PM
so the seat was removed the end of March and then thrown out with the general pickup in the area mid April...scratch another from TLM statement about cutting out parts of a back seat and thus the reason TS had to sit on the floor...wonder when we will find out the "car wash" was a figment of her imagination...I still believe he was there at the scene but his role is what I am having difficulty in trying to figure out... I also don't think he was "dating" TLM..more likely using her to obtain drugs... as they say..."hell has no fury"...:moo:


London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFPReply
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Pushie described it as the seat portion of a back seat He said the clean up happened about a week after Easter in 2009
1:47 PM - 12 Apr 12via web · DetailsReply
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London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFPReply
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Pushie said he never spoke to Rafferty. He told police in Spring 2009 that he saw the car seat in front of Rafferty's home covered by couch

QUACK QUACK

Sailor Bug
04-12-2012, 01:30 PM
Mike Knoll: Hank Daniszewski's noon trial update:

Two neighbors of Michael Rafferty said they saw a car seat in a garbage pile front of his home.

Michael Griswold and David Pushie said, both residents of Tennyson Street, said they saw the car seat, covered by a couch during a spring clean up week in Woodstock on April 2009 about a week after Victoria Stafford disappeared.

Police officials testified the bottom portion of Rafferty's rear car seat was missing when it was seized in May and was never located.

Griswold said the car seat appeared to be ripped with a sharp object.

Terri-Lynne McClintic testified Rafferty told her to cut out part of the seat because it could not be cleaned.

Defense lawyer suggested to Griswold that he saw Rafferty remove the seat earlier to install speakers but Griswold said he did not recall that.

Griswold said the rear seat was in the car when he helped Rafferty move his car from Guelph a year earlier to move in with his mother on Tennyson Street.

The court also heard from a woman who briefly dated Rafferty at about the same time. She said his car seemed very dirty and littered and the rear seat appeared to be covered with a blanket.

She said Rafferty appeared "nervous" and "needy" and she moved to break off the relationship quickly.

daisy.faithfull
04-12-2012, 01:30 PM
so the seat was removed the end of March and then thrown out with the general pickup in the area mid April...scratch another from TLM statement about cutting out parts of a back seat and thus the reason TS had to sit on the floor...wonder when we will find out the "car wash" was a figment of her imagination...I still believe he was there at the scene but his role is what I am having difficulty in trying to figure out... I also don't think he was "dating" TLM..more likely using her to obtain drugs... as they say..."hell has no fury"...:moo:

huh? I think that Tory was on the floor because they wanted her out of site.

Macright
04-12-2012, 01:31 PM
London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFPReply
Retweet

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Pushie described it as the seat portion of a back seat He said the clean up happened about a week after Easter in 2009
1:47 PM - 12 Apr 12via web · DetailsReply
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Favorite


understand that BUT if you will read back further the witness ALSO said that MR removed the seat March 29th and it was put out for cleanup the week after Easter.....:what:

CarrieBean
04-12-2012, 01:32 PM
Is it possible that that was an error on the part of the journalist/tweeter?

I guess none of us here are specialists at this stuff, but where else would sperm come from? I'm going to look on google some more..........

I think you're probably right, an error. Couldn't find another source for sperm on my search.

Macright
04-12-2012, 01:34 PM
@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)

(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190479288217243648)Griswold says he noticed Rafferty remove the seat and put it in his shed March 29th, 09. He is read his synopsis, now remembers.

@AM980_Court (https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court)


(https://twitter.com/#%21/AM980_Court/status/190479524453031936)Derstine asks if chunks were cut out of the seat. Griswold says no. Just one cut. No more questions.



does not the above stated by the witness that MR removed the seat March 29th....please someone correct me if I am reading this incorrectly....thus the reason I said there was no back seat at the time of the murder....:banghead::banghead::banghead:

CarrieBean
04-12-2012, 01:36 PM
sorry didn't post that correctly..brain thinking but fingers not staying in sync..what I meant was TLM said she cut pieces out of a seat that from what we heard today did not exist at the time of the murder..so scratch that from her statement of truth.. she also mentioned that little TS had to sit on the floor in the back so that would seem to have some truth to it IF the seat had been removed March 29 as the witness said today...

Or it's quite possible the first witness has his dates mixed up. Or the seat was returned to the car for a time (and different reason) and removed again.

Latole
04-12-2012, 01:36 PM
Mike Knoll: Hank Daniszewski's noon trial update:

Two neighbors of Michael Rafferty said they saw a car seat in a garbage pile front of his home.

Michael Griswold and David Pushie said, both residents of Tennyson Street, said they saw the car seat, covered by a couch during a spring clean up week in Woodstock on April 2009 about a week after Victoria Stafford disappeared.

Police officials testified the bottom portion of Rafferty's rear car seat was missing when it was seized in May and was never located.

Griswold said the car seat appeared to be ripped with a sharp object.

Terri-Lynne McClintic testified Rafferty told her to cut out part of the seat because it could not be cleaned.

Defense lawyer suggested to Griswold that he saw Rafferty remove the seat earlier to install speakers but Griswold said he did not recall that.

Griswold said the rear seat was in the car when he helped Rafferty move his car from Guelph a year earlier to move in with his mother on Tennyson Street.

The court also heard from a woman who briefly dated Rafferty at about the same time. She said his car seemed very dirty and littered and the rear seat appeared to be covered with a blanket.

She said Rafferty appeared "nervous" and "needy" and she moved to break off the relationship quickly.


Perhaps the ripped seat that Griswold saw is the one that was in the car at the time Tori was taken and because of the rip in the seat "fluids" leaked inside and that is perhaps what TLM was told to cut out. The seat seen by DP was likely the same seat but with more "damage". And perhaps the reason it was seen covered by a blanket previously by girlfriends, etc. is because he was attempting to hide the original rip. MOO

Kamille
04-12-2012, 01:38 PM
so the seat was removed the end of March and then thrown out with the general pickup in the area mid April...scratch another from TLM statement about cutting out parts of a back seat and thus the reason TS had to sit on the floor...wonder when we will find out the "car wash" was a figment of her imagination...I still believe he was there at the scene but his role is what I am having difficulty in trying to figure out... I also don't think he was "dating" TLM..more likely using her to obtain drugs... as they say..."hell has no fury"...:moo:

Where is the proof that the seat was removed in March? :waitasec:

Because Derstine said so?

If he wasn't "dating" TLM, why is her DNA mixed with his sperm on his front passenger car seat? Why did he have pictures of her in a motel room wearing his t-shirt on his SD card? Why is there video of them attending a movie?

MOO

Macright
04-12-2012, 01:38 PM
Or it's quite possible the first witness has his dates mixed up. Or the seat was returned to the car for a time (and different reason) and removed again.


yes that is possible but you know we could go back and forth on this till the cows come home...I am only going by what the witness said under oath and I am sure the jury will also.... I think we will have to agree to disagree on this and other points...respectfully.....JMO

Salem
04-12-2012, 01:40 PM
Question: I general, which human tissues and fluids contain sperm fractions?

I found this: If you're asking if we can get a DNA profile from semen that contains no sperm, then the answer is no. Sperm is the only component of semen that contains DNA. I guess it is possible that someone might shed a few skin cells into the semen, but it would be pretty unlikely.
Here: Sperm fraction? - Straight Dope Message Board


I'm not finding much else, but I'm still looking.

Salem

daisy.faithfull
04-12-2012, 01:42 PM
Or it's quite possible the first witness has his dates mixed up. Or the seat was returned to the car for a time (and different reason) and removed again.

I hope this is something that the Crown points out.

snoofer
04-12-2012, 01:44 PM
understand that BUT if you will read back further the witness ALSO said that MR removed the seat March 29th and it was put out for cleanup the week after Easter.....:what:

Derstine asks Griswold if he saw Rafferty put the car seat in the shed - [/COLOR][COLOR="Red"]Griswold says no,
Derstine asks Griswold if he saw Rafferty remove the car seat late in March to install speakers

Griswold said he saw a ripped car seat in the garbage pile in front of Rafferty's house There was a love seat on top


Griswold said the spring cleanup was around April 15 ,2009 He said he looked at the garbage pile in front of Rafferty's house:moo:


It sounds like Derstine has suggested it was end March.

This is the direct quote from LFPress tweet, can't speak of any other tweets.

Tweet prior to that
London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFPReply
Retweet

Griswold is reviewing a prior statement he made to police in May 2009 to refresh his memory
London Free Press‏@RaffertyLFP


Griswold recalls a spring cleanup week He said there was garbage in front of Rafferty's house

1:28 PM - 12 Apr 12via web ·

swedie
04-12-2012, 01:44 PM
RBBM: What the heck doess it mean then? If it doesn't come from sperm, why do they call it "sperm fraction" and where else could it come from? That makes no sense????

Salem

No it doesn't make sense at all. I sure hope the jurors are given science lessons about sperm and semen. My head is hurting trying to figure that one out. :banghead: Crazy!

Oldsoul2
04-12-2012, 01:45 PM
yes that is possible but you know we could go back and forth on this till the cows come home...I am only going by what the witness said under oath and I am sure the jury will also.... I think we will have to agree to disagree on this and other points...respectfully.....JMO

I think it was a tweeting error, desrstine suggested that he took the back seat out in march to add speakers, the witness did not say he did, i'll try or someone try to find the info of his testimony exactly

Oldsoul2
04-12-2012, 01:46 PM
Mike Knoll: Hank Daniszewski's noon trial update:

Two neighbors of Michael Rafferty said they saw a car seat in a garbage pile front of his home.

Michael Griswold and David Pushie said, both residents of Tennyson Street, said they saw the car seat, covered by a couch during a spring clean up week in Woodstock on April 2009 about a week after Victoria Stafford disappeared.

Police officials testified the bottom portion of Rafferty's rear car seat was missing when it was seized in May and was never located.

Griswold said the car seat appeared to be ripped with a sharp object.

Terri-Lynne McClintic testified Rafferty told her to cut out part of the seat because it could not be cleaned.

Defense lawyer suggested to Griswold that he saw Rafferty remove the seat earlier to install speakers but Griswold said he did not recall that.
Griswold said the rear seat was in the car when he helped Rafferty move his car from Guelph a year earlier to move in with his mother on Tennyson Street.

The court also heard from a woman who briefly dated Rafferty at about the same time. She said his car seemed very dirty and littered and the rear seat appeared to be covered with a blanket.

She said Rafferty appeared "nervous" and "needy" and she moved to break off the relationship quickly.

Here Macright

Macright
04-12-2012, 01:46 PM
Where is the proof that the seat was removed in March? :waitasec:

Because Derstine said so?

If he wasn't "dating" TLM, why is her DNA mixed with his sperm on his front passenger car seat? Why did he have pictures of her in a motel room wearing his t-shirt on his SD card? Why is there video of them attending a movie?

MOO


no Kamille not because Dirk said so...because I believe there is a written statement from this witness from that time frame (which he reminded him of and the witness agreed)..... I have stated my thoughts and the way I read the statements today and now I will move on so this will be my last post on that seat)... respectfully yours......:moo: I also would like to add that I want the person or persons responsible for TS death to be dealt with according to the law but I also don't want someone convicted on the words of a known and proven liar....how sad would that be....as I have previously stated, there is no doubt in my mind that MR played some role in this but to what extent has yet to be proven...the fact that he was there should be enough to put him away for a number of years but lets make sure that the label on him is the correct one....accessory yes...murderer (no as per TLM)...sexual interference with TS...not proven and can't be....no evidence as per the pro's...that is why I am keeping an open mind on those other charges... his lifestyle is no concern of mine nor how many women he dated at one time etc....:moo:

Shasta
04-12-2012, 01:46 PM
does not the above stated by the witness that MR removed the seat March 29th....please someone correct me if I am reading this incorrectly....thus the reason I said there was no back seat at the time of the murder....:banghead::banghead::banghead:
I will have to go back in the threads to find the tweets but I believe Griswold is testifying to witnessing two separate incidents with the car seat. The first in March where the seat was removed with the inference being to install speakers thereafter the seat was put back in the car and the second incidence April 15 when the seat was put on the curb for trash collection. The latter was viewed by two different neigbours who both also testified that there was a large piece of furniture on top of the car seat on April 15th. They therefore could not see if the seat had chunks missing. JMO

At least this was my understanding. Hopefully someone will jump in if I'm wrong. I'll go looking for those tweets.

Ardy
04-12-2012, 01:48 PM
so the seat was removed the end of March and then thrown out with the general pickup in the area mid April...scratch another from TLM statement about cutting out parts of a back seat and thus the reason TS had to sit on the floor...wonder when we will find out the "car wash" was a figment of her imagination...I still believe he was there at the scene but his role is what I am having difficulty in trying to figure out... I also don't think he was "dating" TLM..more likely using her to obtain drugs... as they say..."hell has no fury"...:moo:

JMO......I don't think the defense has ever intimated the MR wasn't in the car.

Their theory is that TLM lied about why VS was there, and she had her own plot brewing. The plot didn't work out and the police had become involved by then. TLM decided to murder VS to hide her involvement.

MR panicked when he returned to the car, didn't call LE, and tried to hide the evidence of the crime.

TLM claimed MR told her.......to help clean up because she was involved in it as much as he was. When TLM first made that statement........she accused MR of killing VS. Now that we know it was TLM who killed VS, it is more likely that TLM said that to MR.......IMO

IMO.......The Crown counted heavily on the testimony of TLM, but her changes in testimony and the background uncovered by the defense.........devastated her credibility.

CarrieBean
04-12-2012, 01:49 PM
I think it was a tweeting error, desrstine suggested that he took the back seat out in march to add speakers, the witness did not say he did, i'll try or someone try to find the info of his testimony exactly

I think so too, and feeling like an idiot after searching the internet for what other body fluids sperm is found in. :doh:

ChaChaCha
04-12-2012, 01:51 PM
I found this: If you're asking if we can get a DNA profile from semen that contains no sperm, then the answer is no. Sperm is the only component of semen that contains DNA. I guess it is possible that someone might shed a few skin cells into the semen, but it would be pretty unlikely.
Here: Sperm fraction? - Straight Dope Message Board (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=441749)


I'm not finding much else, but I'm still looking.

Salem

What about guys that have been fixed? The old expression shooting blanks comes to mind lol. The car had a previous owner - is it possible he too used it as a love shack? I can't check right now, but if somebody wants to look into that.

Keeping in mind that the expert noted that it is possible for DNA to e deposited in layers.

The thought of the inside of that car makes me ill. Yech!

Thinkzerz
04-12-2012, 01:51 PM
I am confused as to why there was all this sperm from MR in his car when in this photo #45 http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/05/19599961.html
Shows two different brands or type of condoms. I wonder if forensics tested Tori's shirt for latex?

Salem
04-12-2012, 01:53 PM
so the seat was removed the end of March and then thrown out with the general pickup in the area mid April...scratch another from TLM statement about cutting out parts of a back seat and thus the reason TS had to sit on the floor...wonder when we will find out the "car wash" was a figment of her imagination...I still believe he was there at the scene but his role is what I am having difficulty in trying to figure out... I also don't think he was "dating" TLM..more likely using her to obtain drugs... as they say..."hell has no fury"...:moo:

Actually this is taken out of context. He is saying when he saw the seat on March 29th there were no chunks out of it. NOT when it was seen in the trash pile.

HTH,

Salem

swedie
04-12-2012, 01:57 PM
Good lord, more girlfriends? Didn't he just move back to Woodstock at the beginning of the year? Is this number 6 or 7 within a 4 month period? :waitasec:

MOO

I want to say eight and nine according to my list. :floorlaugh:

daisy.faithfull
04-12-2012, 02:02 PM
I am confused as to why there was all this sperm from MR in his car when in this photo #45 http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/05/19599961.html
Shows two different brands or type of condoms. I wonder if forensics tested Tori's shirt for latex?

Maybe he only used a condom when his partner insisted that he do so.

snoofer
04-12-2012, 02:04 PM
I think it was a tweeting error, desrstine suggested that he took the back seat out in march to add speakers, the witness did not say he did, i'll try or someone try to find the info of his testimony exactly

LFP tweet is different from AM980 tweet posted by matou.:twocents: