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imamaze
04-13-2012, 11:03 AM
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Adrienne37
04-13-2012, 11:08 AM
Zimmerman to seek bond in Trayvon Martin case

A bond hearing has been tentatively scheduled to begin at 9 a.m. on April 20, said Mark O'Mara, Zimmerman's attorney.

http://www.local10.com/news/Zimmerman-to-seek-bond-in-Trayvon-Martin-case/-/1717324/10688934/-/braic0/-/

Aedrys
04-13-2012, 11:09 AM
Zimmerman to seek bond in Trayvon Martin case

A bond hearing has been tentatively scheduled to begin at 9 a.m. on April 20, said Mark O'Mara, Zimmerman's attorney.

http://www.local10.com/news/Zimmerman-to-seek-bond-in-Trayvon-Martin-case/-/1717324/10688934/-/braic0/-/

I honestly think he's much safer in jail right now. He really should not get bond for his own safety, IMO.

Adrienne37
04-13-2012, 11:13 AM
I honestly think he's much safer in jail right now. He really should not get bond for his own safety, IMO.

I agree but he also should not get bond because he has been accused of committing second degree murder.


~jmo~

jaded cat
04-13-2012, 11:16 AM
From the previous thread about GZ's height and weight.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/13/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83A1ET20120413?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=71

This article lists his height as 5'10". So it appears there are 2 different articles with conflicting info. I'm a little whacky sometimes but I knew I wasn't crazy.

songline
04-13-2012, 11:19 AM
A feeling I have is there is a camp that has already triad Zimmerman,
they will say he has too much money in his canteen, does not need bond,
He is guilty just because he got out of the car, end of story.

I pray that the justice system will do much much better than that. :please:

I am very eager for some of the facts that we do not have. I heard enough opinions :twocents:

Phoenixfla
04-13-2012, 11:19 AM
No when one of those people have a GUN. Guns don't have to touch a person to hurt them, just have the trigger pulled. This wasn't a fist fight. This was one person with a gun confronting another person. The person with the gun is the one who chooses to pull the trigger. TM could not make GZ shoot him. And how is TM supposed to a defuse a gun in his face?

There is NO evidence that GZ drew his gun anytime before he was on the ground on his back. If you have some evidence to the contrary, please share. Would you say "You got a problem?" to someone pointing a gun at you? I contend that the gun was holstered right up to the point it was drawn and immediately used to stop the alleged attack on GZ.

tpgks
04-13-2012, 11:20 AM
I agree but he also should not get bond because he has been accused of committing second degree murder.


~jmo~

That damn eighth amendment and hundreds of years of court rulings! :banghead:

Cher352
04-13-2012, 11:21 AM
From the previous thread about GZ's height and weight.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/13/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83A1ET20120413?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=71

This article lists his height as 5'10". So it appears there are 2 different articles with conflicting info. I'm a little whacky sometimes but I knew I wasn't crazy.

Maybe we should go for the best 2 out of 3...:D

Phoenixfla
04-13-2012, 11:21 AM
A feeling I have is there is a camp that has already triad Zimmerman,
they will say he has too much money in his canteen, does not need bond,
He is guilty just because he got out of the car, end of story.

I pray that the justice system will do much much better than that. :please:

I am very eager for some of the facts that we do not have. I heard enough opinions :twocents:


I agree. I think that is is a shame that someone died. I feel awful for the family for their loss, but at least let all the facts come out before the electric chair is plugged in.

Elley Mae
04-13-2012, 11:25 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57413599-504083/george-zimmerman-bail-hearing-set-for-april-20-lawyer-says/

For all the relief among civil rights activists over the arrest, legal experts warned there is a real chance the case could get thrown out before it ever goes to trial because of the "stand your ground" law.

LolaMoon08
04-13-2012, 11:25 AM
There is NO evidence that GZ drew his gun anytime before he was on the ground on his back. If you have some evidence to the contrary, please share. Would you say "You got a problem?" to someone pointing a gun at you? I contend that the gun was holstered right up to the point it was drawn and immediately used to stop the alleged attack on GZ.

I think that the information, which I don't have a link because it was on television, comes from Robert Zimmerman Sr. He stated that Trayvon was trying to get George's gun. In order to try and get George's gun, Trayvon would have to know George had a gun.

IMO, even before Robert Zimmerman Sr. said this, I believed that they were wrestling over that gun. I believe that when George caught back up with Trayvon, Trayvon asks "Why are you following me/What's your problem?" (there's two different versions?) and that is when George pulled or at least reached for the gun and said "What are you doing here/Nothing. I don't have a problem?" (Again, two different versions).

I believe that the only reason that there was any physical altercation was because George made it known that he had that gun.

MOO

octobermoon
04-13-2012, 11:27 AM
I agree. I think that is is a shame that someone died. I feel awful for the family for their loss, but at least let all the facts come out before the electric chair is plugged in.

He wouldn't get the death penalty if he is convicted. This is only a message board. Not a jury room. IMO JMO MOO

Isabelle
04-13-2012, 11:27 AM
If GZ is offered and accepts a plea and documents remain sealed, what will the parents have to do to get a copy of the autopsy?

momshrink
04-13-2012, 11:28 AM
I think he is much safer in custody. I would be concerned if he is released because IMO he seems impulsive. Because of this I would be concerned about attempted suicide or self-harming behaviors or that he may attempt flight to escape the situation.
IMO is is very afraid of what will happen to him and will look for relief from the situation without considering the consequences.
IMO he seems very self-focused and unaware of others feelings or thoughts which makes it difficult for him to accept or even to process the advice of others.
IMO he seems to have no psychological disorder and seemed to know right from wrong at the time of the crime.
I really hope he is kept in custody where he is safe from himself.
IMO, JMO

nomoresorrow
04-13-2012, 11:29 AM
(BBM)

Originally posted by Songline:
And the one that tried to get into Franks house that was not cought.
would make it 4.
I see 50%

"the one"? Is this referring to AND assuming it was an AA? TIA!

LolaMoon08
04-13-2012, 11:30 AM
I think that he is much safer in custody too, but if he does get bond, I won't be angry? He will be told he is not allowed to drink/do drugs and it's banned from having a gun in the house.

LolaMoon08
04-13-2012, 11:33 AM
I think he is much safer in custody. I would be concerned if he is released because IMO he seems impulsive. Because of this I would be concerned about attempted suicide or self-harming behaviors or that he may attempt flight to escape the situation.
IMO is is very afraid of what will happen to him and will look for relief from the situation without considering the consequences.
IMO he seems very self-focused and unaware of others feelings or thoughts which makes it difficult for him to accept or even to process the advice of others.
IMO he seems to have no psychological disorder and seemed to know right from wrong at the time of the crime.
I really hope he is keep in custody where he is safe from himself.
IMO, JMO

Maybe he can go to some kind of program to get help for his issues while he is out on bond? I know he won't be able to have a gun because of the other Florida case. Remember LE found out GA had purchased a gun and they went and confiscated it?

waltzingmatilda
04-13-2012, 11:33 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47038437/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/

nomoresorrow
04-13-2012, 11:34 AM
A feeling I have is there is a camp that has already triad Zimmerman,
they will say he has too much money in his canteen, does not need bond,
He is guilty just because he got out of the car, end of story.

I pray that the justice system will do much much better than that. :please:

I am very eager for some of the facts that we do not have. I heard enough opinions :twocents:

Likewise, since you brought up "camps", there seems to be "a camp" who has an excuse and innocent explanation for everything pertaining to GZ's actions - even his thought-process(es). JMO~

Phoenixfla
04-13-2012, 11:34 AM
I believe that the only reason that there was any physical altercation was because George made it known that he had that gun.

That just does not add up. I'll tell ya, if someone has a gun pointed at me, i'm doing what they say, regardless of if I think they are right or wrong. The LAST thing I would do is come at the person. With a gun pointed at me the NUMBER ONE thing I would be thinking is "DIFFUSE THE SITUATION" Then wait for the police and tell the police that "this guy pulled a gun on me, I live here have every right to be here and is brandished a gun on me for no reason"

Phoenixfla
04-13-2012, 11:37 AM
He wouldn't get the death penalty if he is convicted. This is only a message board. Not a jury room. IMO JMO MOO

I understand. Rarely do I post sarcasm, because it is often misinterperted, but it got the better of me in this post.

LolaMoon08
04-13-2012, 11:38 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57413599-504083/george-zimmerman-bail-hearing-set-for-april-20-lawyer-says/

For all the relief among civil rights activists over the arrest, legal experts warned there is a real chance the case could get thrown out before it ever goes to trial because of the "stand your ground" law.

Trayvon's parents stated that they would respect what the court's decide. All they wanted was an arrest and for the court's to decide. I am sure they are very aware of this case potentially being thrown out based on SYG laws. However, their fight will continue because they will make sure that the SYG laws are better defined. Even the people who made the SYG laws say that what GZ did was not protected under the SYG laws... so obviously... changes need to be made if he is.

I personally will be standing right there beside them in their quest for justice. Justice may very well be George Zimmerman walking free... but Trayvon's case goes much further than George Zimmerman's arrest/conviction. Steps need to be taken to make sure something like this never happens again and that people like GZ do not slip through the cracks because our laws are not better defined.

MOO

Adrienne37
04-13-2012, 11:38 AM
I think that he is much safer in custody too, but if he does get bond, I won't be angry? He will be told he is not allowed to drink/do drugs and it's banned from having a gun in the house.

I appreciate your compassion Lola. I have none for the man and it's my personal opinion that he deserves to sit in jail and not be allowed bond. Trayvon is laying in a mausoleum and will remain there forever because of this man. He doesn't deserve to get out and be free to do whatever he wants to do. He deserves to be right where he's at until such time that a jury reaches a verdict.


~jmo~

krkrjx
04-13-2012, 11:42 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57413599-504083/george-zimmerman-bail-hearing-set-for-april-20-lawyer-says/

For all the relief among civil rights activists over the arrest, legal experts warned there is a real chance the case could get thrown out before it ever goes to trial because of the "stand your ground" law.

Well, I hope all the known facts are considered before it is decided that GZ's actions are covered by the SYG law. I am not sure that he would be convicted if he went to trial but with the actual facts we have now (which are few) I do not believe Stand Your Ground applies in this case. GZ followed Trayvon. He admits he followed Trayvon.

I would rather see GZ acquitted after a trial than have a judge decide now that it is OK in Florida for a person to actively pursue another person and then shoot their way out of the situation that they initiated. The SYG law states you cannot do that, so if this is thrown out of court before it goes anywhere, heaven help us all.

LolaMoon08
04-13-2012, 11:45 AM
I appreciate your compassion Lola. I have none for the man and it's my personal opinion that he deserves to sit in jail and not be allowed bond. Trayvon is laying in a mausoleum and will remain there forever because of this man. He doesn't deserve to get out and be free to do whatever he wants to do. He deserves to be right where he's at until such time that a jury reaches a verdict.


~jmo~

I'm trying to respect Trayvon's mother's words? She doesn't hate GZ and she is not angry at GZ. She wanted an arrest and he is arrested now. She wants for the court to decide and that is what I want too. I have compassion for Trayvon's mother and because I see that she has compassion for the man who killed her son... I will have compassion for the man who killed her son.

That does not mean that I do not want him held responsible for what he did. I 100% think GZ is guilty of killing Trayvon. There is nothing that justifies what he did that night. I think he should be found guilty and go away for a long time. I believe he is a danger to himself and a danger to those around him. I think he is a very unstable man... however... if they do give him bond... they take that risk, but legally, I believe because of the charges, he does get to have a bond?

annalia
04-13-2012, 11:45 AM
That just does not add up. I'll tell ya, if someone has a gun pointed at me, i'm doing what they say, regardless of if I think they are right or wrong. The LAST thing I would do is come at the person. With a gun pointed at me the NUMBER ONE thing I would be thinking is "DIFFUSE THE SITUATION" Then wait for the police and tell the police that "this guy pulled a gun on me, I live here have every right to be here and is brandished a gun on me for no reason"

How was Travon to know that police were coming? :waitasec: The only one that knew police were on their way was GZ, so he's the one that never should have let the situation escalate in the first place, he's the one that should have stayed in the car, knowing full well that police were on their way.

Someone points a gun at you and you say, oh wait, don't shoot me, let's wait for police to get here? Or maybe, hey can you wait a sec while I call 911? :waitasec:

Isn't it easy to sit back in our comfy chairs, long after the fact and say what we would do if someone has a gun pointed at us. Much different than being in that exact moment.

JMHO

Aedrys
04-13-2012, 11:46 AM
I agree but he also should not get bond because he has been accused of committing second degree murder.


~jmo~

ITA! That's the main reason. I also think he's just not safe outside of jail either. I want to see him make it trial. I don't want anyone going vigilante on him, which would be highly ironic.

octobermoon
04-13-2012, 11:46 AM
I understand. Rarely do I post sarcasm, because it is often misinterperted, but it got the better of me in this post.

:) no worries :)

daisy7
04-13-2012, 11:46 AM
GZ's attorney thinks it will be a long time to the trial and doesn't rule out a plea deal.

http://www.nypost.com/video?vcid=23611632&freewheel=90861&sitesection=nypostns

Aedrys
04-13-2012, 11:49 AM
There is NO evidence that GZ drew his gun anytime before he was on the ground on his back. If you have some evidence to the contrary, please share. Would you say "You got a problem?" to someone pointing a gun at you? I contend that the gun was holstered right up to the point it was drawn and immediately used to stop the alleged attack on GZ.

There's also no evidence to suggest he didn't pull out his gun and confront Trayvon. We don't have those few minutes in evidence to really determine what happened. I have my opinion, and I can respect yours. I am willing to wait until trial and see how this plays out. Just because I think GZ stalkd and killed TM doesn't mean I want to lynch him. I want justice to play out here, as it should. And if it turns I'm wrong, I will apologize for that.

Aedrys
04-13-2012, 11:50 AM
GZ's attorney thinks it will be a long time to the trial and doesn't rule out a plea deal.

http://www.nypost.com/video?vcid=23611632&freewheel=90861&sitesection=nypostns

Please, not another three years, O'Mara. Just promise me that! I can't take that again!

Aedrys
04-13-2012, 11:51 AM
Maybe he can go to some kind of program to get help for his issues while he is out on bond? I know he won't be able to have a gun because of the other Florida case. Remember LE found out GA had purchased a gun and they went and confiscated it?

Well, maybe there's room for him at that same church where CA is staying.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

LolaMoon08
04-13-2012, 11:51 AM
GZ's attorney thinks it will be a long time to the trial and doesn't rule out a plea deal.

http://www.nypost.com/video?vcid=23611632&freewheel=90861&sitesection=nypostns

I would have no problem with them giving GZ a plea deal as long as he gets at least 30 years. Which I believe under Manslaughter charges, he could get 30 years.

MOO

grandmaj
04-13-2012, 11:52 AM
Does anyone know is Zimmerman's attorney appointed by the court as his defense counsel or is he being paid privately. I don't recall reading this anywhere.

LolaMoon08
04-13-2012, 11:52 AM
Well, maybe there's room for him at that same church where CA is staying.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

That would be fun!! :floorlaugh: GZ thought Trayvon was a scary looking person... put him in the same room with FCA for a few days and he'll be a changed man!

Adrienne37
04-13-2012, 11:55 AM
Does anyone know is Zimmerman's attorney appointed by the court as his defense counsel or is he being paid privately. I don't recall reading this anywhere.

Zimmerman was declared indigent so I guess the state will end up paying him.



~jmo~

grandmaj
04-13-2012, 11:55 AM
Bail - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The main reasons for refusing bail are that the defendant is accused of an imprisonable offence and there are substantial grounds for believing that the defendant would:

Abscond
Commit further offences while on bail
Interfere with witnesses[5]

The court should take into account the:

Nature and seriousness of the offence or default (and the probable method of dealing with the defendant for it)
Character, antecedents, associations and community ties of the defendant,
Defendant's bail record, and
Strength of the evidence[5]

The court may also refuse bail:

For the defendant's own protection
Where the defendant is already serving a custodial sentence for another offence
Where the court is satisfied that it has not been practicable to obtain sufficient information
Where the defendant has already absconded in the present proceedings
Where the defendant has been convicted but the court is awaiting a pre-sentence report, other report or inquiry and it would be impracticable to complete the inquiries or make the report without keeping the defendant in custody
Where the defendant is charged with a non-imprisonable offence, has already been released on bail for the offence with which he is now accused, and has been arrested for absconding or breaching bail[5]

Where the accused has previous convictions for certain homicide or sexual offences, the burden of proof is on the defendant to rebut a presumption against bail.[6]


This was a C&P don't blame the bad spelling on me please. :floorlaugh:

LolaMoon08
04-13-2012, 11:56 AM
Does anyone know is Zimmerman's attorney appointed by the court as his defense counsel or is he being paid privately. I don't recall reading this anywhere.

He wasn't court appointed, so he has to be privately retained? I have no idea if he is being paid or working this case pro-bono though?

Aedrys
04-13-2012, 11:56 AM
Zimmerman was declared indigent so I guess the state will end up paying him.



~jmo~

O'Mara is competent. I am hopeful this indigency won't turn into the same mess as CA's did.

justplainmetal
04-13-2012, 11:57 AM
Does anyone know is Zimmerman's attorney appointed by the court as his defense counsel or is he being paid privately. I don't recall reading this anywhere.

I believe he said @ the press conference after the 1st appearance that it is a pro bono he is doing.

eta link
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/george-zimmerman-mute-appearance-court-trayvon-martin-murder-case-article-1.1060616

LolaMoon08
04-13-2012, 11:57 AM
Zimmerman was declared indigent so I guess the state will end up paying him.



~jmo~

Okay. That makes sense. O'Mara won't be able to charge his regular fees if he is being paid by the State. He'll get what a Public Defender would get if I remember correctly?

Adrienne37
04-13-2012, 11:58 AM
Okay. That makes sense. O'Mara won't be able to charge his regular fees if he is being paid by the State. He'll get what a Public Defender would get if I remember correctly?

Yep, I think that is correct.

JeannaT
04-13-2012, 11:59 AM
I'm interested in why this case has become such a lightening rod for hate.

Just last week there were two men from Tulsa who went out at night, armed, with the intent of shooting Black people and they did - 5 of them - totally innocent people they had no beef with whatsoever.

Why are they being ignored, and George Zimmerman probably wouldn't survive outside of the jail right now?

I guess I didn't ever really understand the seething hate people have for CA either, how she's different from any other mom who kills their darling child and then lies about it.

It's baffling why the public becomes riveted on certain cases, with a blood lust for vengeance, and other cases are pretty much ignored that seem much worse to me.

LolaMoon08
04-13-2012, 11:59 AM
I really hope they don't waive his right to a speedy trial. I don't think I can handle that either.

Adrienne37
04-13-2012, 11:59 AM
According to O'Mara, "my client is essentially indigent....I haven't accepted any money from him because he has no money...the state of (Florida) could pay my client's attorney's fees."


http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2012/04/george-zimmerman-broke-indigant-says-attorney

songline
04-13-2012, 12:00 PM
Does anyone know is Zimmerman's attorney appointed by the court as his defense counsel or is he being paid privately. I don't recall reading this anywhere.

From the NY times

Saying his client has no money, Mr. O’Mara said that he was not charging Mr. Zimmerman and that he hoped to secure a low bond.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/13/us/george-zimmerman-to-appear-in-court.html?pagewanted=all

I think this one is a very good article.


I worry if he is not charging at all, because he may need a lot of time for this case.
I wonder if he can still get the court to appoint him so that he won’t ever get to a situation
where he can’t finish it due to funds.

grandmaj
04-13-2012, 12:01 PM
Yes I'd have to go back and listen but the judge said something like You will get credit for this appearance or something to that effect. Which lead me to believe that perhaps he was granted indigence status.

They were talking so fast.......

cityslick
04-13-2012, 12:01 PM
With the info about GZ calling Nejame last month to try to retain him, I again question how involved (if they were ever involved) the two folks who ran that circus presser the other day were with the case?

I have heard from everyone else except GZ. How many of these people have really spoke to GZ and how many are just trying to grab their 15 minutes of air time?

grandmaj
04-13-2012, 12:03 PM
I didn't put HLN or CNN on last night. Were either of these two former attorneys on TV? I would hope not. A new Attorney would take some serious exception to that I would imagine.

LolaMoon08
04-13-2012, 12:04 PM
I'm interested in why this case has become such a lightening rod for hate.

Just last week there were two men from Tulsa who went out at night, armed, with the intent of shooting Black people and they did - 5 of them - totally innocent people they had no beef with whatsoever.

Why are they being ignored, and George Zimmerman probably wouldn't survive outside of the jail right now?

I guess I didn't ever really understand the seething hate people have for CA either. how she's different from any other mom who kills their darling child and then lies about it.

It's baffling why the public because riveted on certain cases, with a blood lust for vengeance, and other cases are pretty much ignored that seem much worse to me.

I hate all mother's who kill their children?

I hate all mother's that sit by and watch their "boyfriends" abuse and murder their children.

I hate all father's that kill their children.

I hate father's who kill their children to get back at the mother.

I hate all father's who allow their "girlfriends" to abuse and murder their children.

I'm not ignoring what is going on in Tulsa? I know full well what is going on in Tulsa. There was a case just yesterday where a father went and shot the mother of his children and his two children in a Cracker Barrell. The coward then killed himself.

I don't ignore anything. All these people get the same hate from me.

MOO

grammieto5
04-13-2012, 12:05 PM
That just does not add up. I'll tell ya, if someone has a gun pointed at me, i'm doing what they say, regardless of if I think they are right or wrong. The LAST thing I would do is come at the person. With a gun pointed at me the NUMBER ONE thing I would be thinking is "DIFFUSE THE SITUATION" Then wait for the police and tell the police that "this guy pulled a gun on me, I live here have every right to be here and is brandished a gun on me for no reason"

And how old are you? Remember Trayvon was 17 years old. GZ is the adult here, he's the one who should have been all this reasoning.

Boytwnmom
04-13-2012, 12:05 PM
the story you are buying. What I believe is that GZ caught up to TM as part of his making sure this a$%hole wouldn't get away and TM asked him "Why are you following me" as his girlfriend heard and GZ said "What are you doing here?" followed by something physical which knocked Trayvon's earbuds out. That was when GZ restrained him, likely by grabbing his arm to prevent his getting away. TM liked became really scared then and tried to get away at which point who knows what happened in term so falling down but at some point TM sees the gun which is when he's screaming for his life which is when GZ decides to shoot him.

The only account which has TM doing this "You gotta problem" stuff is from GZ's father and his account included two encounters between GZ and TM which is completely unsupported by any evidence but you can believe it.




That just does not add up. I'll tell ya, if someone has a gun pointed at me, i'm doing what they say, regardless of if I think they are right or wrong. The LAST thing I would do is come at the person. With a gun pointed at me the NUMBER ONE thing I would be thinking is "DIFFUSE THE SITUATION" Then wait for the police and tell the police that "this guy pulled a gun on me, I live here have every right to be here and is brandished a gun on me for no reason"

jaded cat
04-13-2012, 12:05 PM
Okay. That makes sense. O'Mara won't be able to charge his regular fees if he is being paid by the State. He'll get what a Public Defender would get if I remember correctly?

Oh, he's getting paid alright. I suspect the ALEC and the NRA are ponying up big bucks in support of this case. Pro bono gets MO'M's name out there. Valiant lawyer defending the wrongly accused and all that. He's getting money but we'll never know exactly where it came from.

IYKWIMAITYD :floorlaugh:

Velouria
04-13-2012, 12:08 PM
Maybe he can go to some kind of program to get help for his issues while he is out on bond? I know he won't be able to have a gun because of the other Florida case. Remember LE found out GA had purchased a gun and they went and confiscated it?

I'm not so sure that other program he attended - the one for anger management - worked out so well before.

songline
04-13-2012, 12:09 PM
I'm interested in why this case has become such a lightening rod for hate.

Just last week there were two men from Tulsa who went out at night, armed, with the intent of shooting Black people and they did - 5 of them - totally innocent people they had no beef with whatsoever.

Why are they being ignored, and George Zimmerman probably wouldn't survive outside of the jail right now?

I guess I didn't ever really understand the seething hate people have for CA either, how she's different from any other mom who kills their darling child and then lies about it.

It's baffling why the public becomes riveted on certain cases, with a blood lust for vengeance, and other cases are pretty much ignored that seem much worse to me.

GREAT POST. :clap: :clap:

:( Sadly I believe that the cases that get attention are money machines.
I want to know why Al has not gone after the case you just mentioned?
I have not heard about it and it is wrong, that it is not getting more attention.
The only thing I am guessing is the country is racially heated right now,
and just maybe they are doing something without much Tabloid fodder.

But the vengeance and the hate is a very sad sign of the times.
You can hear it in the despicable music of these days.

Isabelle
04-13-2012, 12:10 PM
I'm interested in why this case has become such a lightening rod for hate.

Just last week there were two men from Tulsa who went out at night, armed, with the intent of shooting Black people and they did - 5 of them - totally innocent people they had no beef with whatsoever.

Why are they being ignored, and George Zimmerman probably wouldn't survive outside of the jail right now?

I guess I didn't ever really understand the seething hate people have for CA either, how she's different from any other mom who kills their darling child and then lies about it.

It's baffling why the public becomes riveted on certain cases, with a blood lust for vengeance, and other cases are pretty much ignored that seem much worse to me.

Could have something to do with the way LE handled/investigated this case, compared to the one you referenced?

Elley Mae
04-13-2012, 12:13 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/us/zimmerman-faces-second-degree-murder-charge-in-florida.html

The charge of second-degree murder also means that Mr. Zimmerman will not be entitled to be released on bail before his trial. Instead, his lawyer will be able to ask for what Florida calls an Arthur hearing, which can take place weeks after the arrest, to determine whether he should be allowed to post bond.

mercuriod
04-13-2012, 12:14 PM
A feeling I have is there is a camp that has already triad Zimmerman,
they will say he has too much money in his canteen, does not need bond,
He is guilty just because he got out of the car, end of story.

I pray that the justice system will do much much better than that. :please:

I am very eager for some of the facts that we do not have. I heard enough opinions :twocents:

BBM, I have a question, no disrespect meant honestly but...this is an opinion board, that is what we are all here doing, voicing our opinions...so if you have heard enough opinions, what are you doing here?

songline
04-13-2012, 12:16 PM
the story you are buying. What I believe is that GZ caught up to TM as part of his making sure this a$%hole wouldn't get away and TM asked him "Why are you following me" as his girlfriend heard and GZ said "What are you doing here?" followed by something physical which knocked Trayvon's earbuds out. That was when GZ restrained him, likely by grabbing his arm to prevent his getting away. TM liked became really scared then and tried to get away at which point who knows what happened in term so falling down but at some point TM sees the gun which is when he's screaming for his life which is when GZ decides to shoot him.

The only account which has TM doing this "You gotta problem" stuff is from GZ's father and his account included two encounters between GZ and TM which is completely unsupported by any evidence but you can believe it.



How do you know that? BBM.There is an investigation in place
and we do not have all the details.
I guess you know it because you have made up your mind.
So let me ask you?
If you see a father spanking his little one, would you just say that bad parent, how dare he?
Because what you may not know is that kid was told 3 times not to run out where the cars are…
But you had not seen that part, you had only seen that he got spanked.
I can guess clearly what some may assess.

momshrink
04-13-2012, 12:16 PM
Maybe he can go to some kind of program to get help for his issues while he is out on bond? I know he won't be able to have a gun because of the other Florida case. Remember LE found out GA had purchased a gun and they went and confiscated it?

IMO, he is more likely to get help in custody. He could get help while on bond and some clinicians make house calls. I have done this. But for GZ there is a huge trust issue right now with people he does not know. He does have to be careful. If I were GZ, I would be very concerned that anything said in therapy or anger management classes could be used against me at trial.
The other concern I have is that friends and family of GZ seem to have trust issues bordering on paranoia and if he stays with any of them, I think there will be guns because they all seem to be so concerned about death threats. I am not minimizing the threats. They are real. But there are other ways to promote safety. I think it will be almost impossible to keep guns out of this family's environment.
I also think IMO individuals in this family have a hard time following advice and seem to think rules do not apply to them. There seems to be an air of entitlement.
All is JMO, MOO.

cityslick
04-13-2012, 12:16 PM
Could have something to do with the way LE handled/investigated this case, compared to the one you referenced?

That's exactly why this case has attention. It's not because GZ shot an unarmed person and that person happened to be black. That kind of stuff happens a lot, people get shot and killed every single day. It's attention because the follow up was not done. And yes, because TM was black. If TM was white and the same circumstances happened, it may be in the news locally but not nationally. Add in past history of racial aspects in Sanford and here we are.

It not just one aspect, it's a multitude of aspects that make this case a 'lighting rod'.

octobermoon
04-13-2012, 12:17 PM
GREAT POST. :clap: :clap:

:( Sadly I believe that the cases that get attention are money machines.
I want to know why Al has not gone after the case you just mentioned?
I have not heard about it and it is wrong, that it is not getting more attention.
The only thing I am guessing is the country is racially heated right now,
and just maybe they are doing something without much Tabloid fodder.

But the vengeance and the hate is a very sad sign of the times.
You can hear it in the despicable music of these days.

I don't want to get in trouble, but will say AS and JJ are going to Tulsa. Also the killers confessed. GZ is trying to use a controversial law as his defense. Throw in the gun lobby and racial tension, not to mention past issues with the police dept. and on and on....= national news story. IMO JMO MOO

songline
04-13-2012, 12:20 PM
BBM, I have a question, no disrespect meant honestly but...this is an opinion board, that is what we are all here doing, voicing our opinions...so if you have heard enough opinions, what are you doing here?
I am actually enjoying the "Sound OFF" thread because
it is more open. I just come here to see that TWO SIDES have some fairness.
NOT only one.
:) There are always as we know my side, your side and the truth.

I see too much one side, I always jump in. You do not see me posting as much as most here.

jenniek
04-13-2012, 12:22 PM
Does anyone know is Zimmerman's attorney appointed by the court as his defense counsel or is he being paid privately. I don't recall reading this anywhere.

he took it pro bono saying the state will pay because hes indigent.

LynnM
04-13-2012, 12:23 PM
That just does not add up. I'll tell ya, if someone has a gun pointed at me, i'm doing what they say, regardless of if I think they are right or wrong. The LAST thing I would do is come at the person. With a gun pointed at me the NUMBER ONE thing I would be thinking is "DIFFUSE THE SITUATION" Then wait for the police and tell the police that "this guy pulled a gun on me, I live here have every right to be here and is brandished a gun on me for no reason"

I strongly disagree. I am sure I've posted this before but I told my daughter when she was Trayvon Martin's age to run when she saw a stranger that MIGHT be pursuing her, not to be embarrassed in case she is wrong and the person was just walking in the same direction. I told her to pay attention to alarm bells when they go off in her head. I told her that if that stranger caught up to her and tried to abduct her to make her stand right there, not to go with him, armed or not, because statistics show that if someone is going to try to take you elsewhere, they are going to kill you. I told her to fight with everything she had.

I did not tell her to try to defuse the situation. I did not tell her to explain herself. I did not tell her to wait for police who might not come in time or at all. Why would Trayvon think that police were about to come?

According to his girlfriend, Trayvon was afraid of a suspicious man who was following him, walked fast and thought he'd lost the man who then appeared behind him again. He asked why the man was following him and didn't get an answer.

I believe Trayvon's girlfriend on all of that since the phone records confirm that they were talking less than a minute before the shooting and because Zimmerman did not take the opportunity to speak to Trayvon earlier when he was in his car and saw Trayvon 'checking him out'. It would have been so easy for Zimmerman to roll down the window, identify himself as a watch volunteer, and ask if he could help him. (That's how I handled it when I saw a man walking around my neighbor's house when she was away on vacation.) He didn't do it when it would it would have been reasonable to do it so I believe her when she says he didn't do it during the confrontation. It's also hard for me to believe Trayvon would be talking to his friend at the same time he is doubling back to sneak up on Zimmerman.

An unarmed teen was shot dead after his admitted shooter called a non-emergency line to complain of suspicious behavior and then couldn't specify any! He was angry about 'a**holes who always get away' and punks. I just don't believe that the only thing that could possibly allow him to claim self defense and get out of criminal responsibility - that he ceased pursuit and was assaulted from behind - is what happened.

LolaMoon08
04-13-2012, 12:24 PM
I'm not so sure that other program he attended - the one for anger management - worked out so well before.

Touche!

LolaMoon08
04-13-2012, 12:25 PM
I am actually enjoying the "Sound OFF" thread because
it is more open. I just come here to see that TWO SIDES have some fairness.
NOT only one.
:) There are always as we know my side, your side and the truth.

I see too much one side, I always jump in. You do not see me posting as much as most here.

I refuse to even peek at the "Sound Off" thread! I'm scurred to see what in the world ya'll say down there. :floorlaugh:

justplainmetal
04-13-2012, 12:25 PM
And thanks to Zimmerman not only is a child dead, but crime has increased in Sanford since this happened. The police have been busy with other things rather than their normal patrols..that IMO weren't that great to begin with.
This from my mother who had spoke to a couple of officers when her neighbor called them about someone possibly attempting to break into her garage.

mercuriod
04-13-2012, 12:26 PM
Oh, he's getting paid alright. I suspect the ALEC and the NRA are ponying up big bucks in support of this case. Pro bono gets MO'M's name out there. Valiant lawyer defending the wrongly accused and all that. He's getting money but we'll never know exactly where it came from.

IYKWIMAITYD :floorlaugh:

If GZ is declared indigent and uses any state funds for any part of his defense, then yes as a citizen of the State of Florida, I can request an accounting of all funds expended in the defense of GZ.

belle3
04-13-2012, 12:26 PM
Gz status hearing at 115 today. Per cf news 13

momshrink
04-13-2012, 12:28 PM
I hate all mother's who kill their children?

I hate all mother's that sit by and watch their "boyfriends" abuse and murder their children.

I hate all father's that kill their children.

I hate father's who kill their children to get back at the mother.

I hate all father's who allow their "girlfriends" to abuse and murder their children.

I'm not ignoring what is going on in Tulsa? I know full well what is going on in Tulsa. There was a case just yesterday where a father went and shot the mother of his children and his two children in a Cracker Barrell. The coward then killed himself.

I don't ignore anything. All these people get the same hate from me.

MOO
:yourock:

Velouria
04-13-2012, 12:28 PM
Well, maybe there's room for him at that same church where CA is staying.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

In that case, could we let him have his gun back?

Move over Aedrys, I couldn't help myself either. ;)

songline
04-13-2012, 12:28 PM
I don't want to get in trouble, but will say AS and JJ are going to Tulsa. Also the killers confessed. GZ is trying to use a controversial law as his defense. Throw in the gun lobby and racial tension, not to mention past issues with the police dept. and on and on....= national news story. IMO JMO MOO


Thank you, I do hope that other case does have proper representation.
IT is not OK to shoot people - unless they present a threat. :maddening:
glad you cleared that up for me.

GZ is using a law that I hate. But it is a legal one in Florida.
I also believe that law stems from biblical time but needs to be adjusted for present time,
so that no mad man can use it ever.
The bible does tell us that you must save your own life first even if it means that you may
have to take the life of another.
But we must have a way to investigate a situation where such a law is used before
setting that person CLEARED. That person cannot be cleared until the investigation is
completed which can take weeks.

YEs that Law need a hall over as does the police department. :maddening:

mercuriod
04-13-2012, 12:29 PM
I am actually enjoying the "Sound OFF" thread because
it is more open. I just come here to see that TWO SIDES have some fairness.
NOT only one.
:) There are always as we know my side, your side and the truth.

I see too much one side, I always jump in. You do not see me posting as much as most here.

Sooo, you want us to hear your opinion but you don't want to hear ours, is that what you are saying?

cityslick
04-13-2012, 12:31 PM
And thanks to Zimmerman not only is a child dead, but crime has increased in Sanford since this happened. The police have been busy with other things rather than their normal patrols..that IMO weren't that great to begin with.
This from my mother who had spoke to a couple of officers when her neighbor called them about someone possibly attempting to break into her garage.

That's not GZ's fault. Crime happens every single day. A lot of folks think SPD tried to let GZ off with a slap on the wrist. People can handle when ordinary individuals commit a crime (to an extent), they can't handle of it's believed the LE (or any other agency) is in on it.

octobermoon
04-13-2012, 12:32 PM
In that case, could we let him have his gun back?

Move over Aedrys, I couldn't help myself either. ;)

:floorlaugh: I just swallowed my jellybean whole when I read your post :floorlaugh:

cityslick
04-13-2012, 12:33 PM
Sooo, you want us to hear your opinion but you don't want to hear ours, is that what you are saying?

I think with any case, there needs to be opposing viewpoints no matter how in the minority one view is. That is the whole point of a msg board, debate and discuss the points. If only one side spoke about the issues, it would get pretty boring around here.

momshrink
04-13-2012, 12:34 PM
Gz status hearing at 115 today. Per cf news 13

Thanks for posting this. I don't think GZ has to be present for this.

songline
04-13-2012, 12:34 PM
I refuse to even peek at the "Sound Off" thread! I'm scurred to see what in the world ya'll say down there. :floorlaugh:

Your loss.. it is a great thread. :)

but then again some people do like a one side track.
I saw it on several cases where the posters have a decision
long before the investigation is anywhere near half way done.

csziggy
04-13-2012, 12:34 PM
From the NY times

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/13/us/george-zimmerman-to-appear-in-court.html?pagewanted=all

I think this one is a very good article.


This article even gives the answer to O'Mara's elusive accent (last thread there was a question if he was from Boston):

Mr. O’Mara, a New Yorker by birth and a criminal defense lawyer for nearly three decades, is perhaps best known in central Florida as a low-key legal analyst on television who frequently commented on the trial last year of Casey Anthony, who was accused — and acquitted — of killing her young daughter.
BBM

songline
04-13-2012, 12:36 PM
Sooo, you want us to hear your opinion but you don't want to hear ours, is that what you are saying?

Is that what I have said? NO it is the way you seem to want to see it.
I have read 24 threads.

suzihawk
04-13-2012, 12:37 PM
Zimmerman was declared indigent so I guess the state will end up paying him.



~jmo~

Sigh... why don't we ever get any killers in FL that can afford their own legal defense?

suzihawk
04-13-2012, 12:39 PM
According to O'Mara, "my client is essentially indigent....I haven't accepted any money from him because he has no money...the state of (Florida) could pay my client's attorney's fees."


http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2012/04/george-zimmerman-broke-indigant-says-attorney

What about the money donated to his PayPal account via his website?

LolaMoon08
04-13-2012, 12:40 PM
Your loss.. it is a great thread. :)

but then again some people do like a one side track.
I saw it on several cases where the posters have a decision
long before the investigation is anywhere near half way done.

:floorlaugh: Nice quip! But I get plenty of the "other side of the track" from up here... I don't need to see what is said down there... I am sure ya'll are having a great time!

I'll take the loss!

elementary
04-13-2012, 12:42 PM
There is NO evidence that GZ drew his gun anytime before he was on the ground on his back. If you have some evidence to the contrary, please share. Would you say "You got a problem?" to someone pointing a gun at you? I contend that the gun was holstered right up to the point it was drawn and immediately used to stop the alleged attack on GZ.

What evidence do you have for that?

BiancaS
04-13-2012, 12:45 PM
There is NO evidence that GZ drew his gun anytime before he was on the ground on his back. If you have some evidence to the contrary, please share. Would you say "You got a problem?" to someone pointing a gun at you? I contend that the gun was holstered right up to the point it was drawn and immediately used to stop the alleged attack on GZ.

The way that I think it happened, no one said "You got a problem," only the GZ fan club of his brother and father have suggested that. And, no, Trayvon didn't say that when a gun was pointing at him, he was screaming for his life when GZ was playing policeman, as we have all heard on the 911 calls. MOO.

octobermoon
04-13-2012, 12:46 PM
:floorlaugh: Nice quip! But I get plenty of the "other side of the track" from up here... I don't need to see what is said down there... I am sure ya'll are having a great time!

I'll take the loss!

If you change your mind wear your fire proof underpants. ;)

cityslick
04-13-2012, 12:46 PM
Most Americans support the right to use deadly force to protect themselves - even in public places - and have a favorable view of the National Rifle Association, the main gun-lobby group, a Reuters/Ipsos poll showed.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/13/us-usa-guns-poll-idUSBRE83C0G420120413

cityslick
04-13-2012, 12:48 PM
If you change your mind wear your fire proof underpants. ;)

I hear you can get those on sale when you are in the 'dungeon' :)

BiancaS
04-13-2012, 12:48 PM
Sigh... why don't we ever get any killers in FL that can afford their own legal defense?


Well, GZ's Daddy Dearest claims that GZ was making $10,000 a month a few years back. Surely he put some of that away for a rainy day?? (Not that I believe that for a minute, he has never held a job for long, from what I have seen).

Adrienne37
04-13-2012, 12:49 PM
Sigh... why don't we ever get any killers in FL that can afford their own legal defense?

Seriously!! I'm getting pretty tired knowing that my hard earned money is going for taxes to pay for this despicable person's legal defense. It kinda makes me want to gag.



~jmo~

elementary
04-13-2012, 12:53 PM
The way that I think it happened, no one said "You got a problem," only the GZ fan club of his brother and father have suggested that. And, no, Trayvon didn't say that when a gun was pointing at him, he was screaming for his life when GZ was playing policeman, as we have all heard on the 911 calls. MOO.

I further believe that GZ wasn't completely lying when he said that something like "Tonight you're going to die" was uttered. GZ strikes me as very much living in his own little world and is great at projecting his own stuff on others. I, therefore, believe that it was a grain of truth like there tends to be for most liars, but it was GZ who said it to Trayvon, and it explains the terror filled and anguished cries we heard from Trayvon. GZ was pointing the gun, Trayvon saw it, these words were uttered by GZ. That is also why I think it should have been Murder 1. I am looking forward to the evidence to see if my theory fits.

LambChop
04-13-2012, 12:53 PM
Most Americans support the right to use deadly force to protect themselves - even in public places - and have a favorable view of the National Rifle Association, the main gun-lobby group, a Reuters/Ipsos poll showed.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/13/us-usa-guns-poll-idUSBRE83C0G420120413

Most people do not get themselves personally involved once they call 911 which has been proven with all the 911 calls after the fight started as they stayed inside and let LE handle it. It's what we are suppose to do not take matters into our own hands by following. What would have been the worst that could have happened if GZ stayed with his car, TM would have made it home or a "thug" would have made it out the back gate. Somehow GZ thought either one was unacceptable.

Most Americans support the right to carry a weapon and use it responsibly. GZ knowing he had a weapon on him did not act responsibly. He did not inform LE he had a gun on him which he knew was something that LE would want to know. jmo

octobermoon
04-13-2012, 12:54 PM
Most Americans support the right to use deadly force to protect themselves - even in public places - and have a favorable view of the National Rifle Association, the main gun-lobby group, a Reuters/Ipsos poll showed.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/13/us-usa-guns-poll-idUSBRE83C0G420120413

I don't know if we should talk about the NRA up here, but I will say I have no problem with people defending themselves with a gun. In this case I see a man who pursued an innocent teenager. GZ had police on the way. He had a truck. He had no reason on God's green earth to put himself in danger of this suspicious kid. He also took a great chance with his neighbors' safety by following TM. Even if TM was up to no good (which he wasn't) there was no logical reason to escalate the situation. What part of police are on the way didn't GZ understand?

This rant wasn't directed at you Cityslick. Just jumping off your post. :)

cityslick
04-13-2012, 12:56 PM
Seriously!! I'm getting pretty tired knowing that my hard earned money is going for taxes to pay for this despicable person's legal defense. It kinda makes me want to gag.



~jmo~

Your hard earned money is paying for a lot more than just defense attorneys that should get you just as upset, if not more so.

elementary
04-13-2012, 12:58 PM
Your hard earned money is paying for a lot more than just defense attorneys that should get you just as upset, if not more so.
Your comment really doesn't address the issue stated, does it?

cityslick
04-13-2012, 01:03 PM
Your comment really doesn't address the issue stated, does it?

No, but it addresses the fact that nothing can be done about it. Taxpayers pay for a whole lot of things that they shouldn't be paying for and that, just like this issue, isn't going to change anytime soon.

That's my point.

Aedrys
04-13-2012, 01:04 PM
In that case, could we let him have his gun back?

Move over Aedrys, I couldn't help myself either. ;)

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

cityslick
04-13-2012, 01:05 PM
Most people do not get themselves personally involved once they call 911 which has been proven with all the 911 calls after the fight started as they stayed inside and let LE handle it. It's what we are suppose to do not take matters into our own hands by following. What would have been the worst that could have happened if GZ stayed with his car, TM would have made it home or a "thug" would have made it out the back gate. Somehow GZ thought either one was unacceptable.

Most Americans support the right to carry a weapon and use it responsibly. GZ knowing he had a weapon on him did not act responsibly. He did not inform LE he had a gun on him which he knew was something that LE would want to know. jmo

I didn't write the article, but at the end of the day if this goes to trial, it's going to be about this as well as race. Because you going to have those that say he had no business carrying a gun even if he was licensed for it and those on the NRA/right to bear arms side will say he had every right to carry a gun if he was permitted, no matter where he was.

jenniek
04-13-2012, 01:09 PM
does anyone have a link to the hearing at 1:15?

LambChop
04-13-2012, 01:12 PM
I agree. I think that is is a shame that someone died. I feel awful for the family for their loss, but at least let all the facts come out before the electric chair is plugged in.

That is not what TM's mother and father have asked for. They asked for justice. This post is stated as a fact and is misleading. It helps when it's not an opinion to post a link so we can verify but the parents have shared their feelings and nothing is further from the truth. jmo

octobermoon
04-13-2012, 01:16 PM
does anyone have a link to the hearing at 1:15?


TruTV is carrying it.

Wise Old Owl
04-13-2012, 01:19 PM
TruTV is carrying it.
Not here - they're talking about Drew Peterson on TruTv right now

octobermoon
04-13-2012, 01:21 PM
Not here - they're talking about Drew Peterson on TruTv right now

Durn it. I swore they were gonna!

Try here

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Status-hearing-held-for-Zimmerman-1-15-p-m/-/1637132/10705120/-/hraa56z/-/index.html

shadowraiths
04-13-2012, 01:23 PM
Wrt GZ's height/weight, in the booking report ( pdf (http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/04/12/zimmerman.booking.report.pdf) ), he's listed as 5'08" 185lbs.

Speaking of... while you're checking out primary source, as opposed to... say, MSM, who tends to put their own spin on things, you might want to check out the completed police report that includes witness statements. ( pdf (http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/03/28/sanford_files/PoliceReports.pdf) ) The names of the witnesses, as well as other private information, has, of course, been redacted.

ETA ~ the above police report only contains identified witnesses (3), which appears, from my read, to be two females and one male.

NB: the above, including other docs are on CNN's site, under "A Collection of Public Documents in Trayvon Martin Shooting" ( link (http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/28/a-collection-of-public-documents-in-trayvon-martin-shooting/) )

Gin
04-13-2012, 01:24 PM
Discussing case right now on TruTV

AngelWings444
04-13-2012, 01:25 PM
Mark N on HLN right now speaking about judge, status hearing.

AngelWings444
04-13-2012, 01:26 PM
MN saying judge will recuse herself.

Aedrys
04-13-2012, 01:27 PM
MN saying judge will recuse herself.

? I wonder why? Did I miss something about this judge?

mercuriod
04-13-2012, 01:28 PM
I further believe that GZ wasn't completely lying when he said that something like "Tonight you're going to die" was uttered. GZ strikes me as very much living in his own little world and is great at projecting his own stuff on others. I, therefore, believe that it was a grain of truth like there tends to be for most liars, but it was GZ who said it to Trayvon, and it explains the terror filled and anguished cries we heard from Trayvon. GZ was pointing the gun, Trayvon saw it, these words were uttered by GZ. That is also why I think it should have been Murder 1. I am looking forward to the evidence to see if my theory fits.

Well here is a little grain of hope for you to hang onto...as more evidence comes in the charges can always be changed to 1st degree. :cheerful:

Elley Mae
04-13-2012, 01:29 PM
MN saying judge will recuse herself.

LOL I don't blame her, as far as I am concerned that is what A corey did- with the doj looking at it I'd distance myself too.

thefragile7393
04-13-2012, 01:29 PM
Not here - they're talking about Drew Peterson on TruTv right now
Oh thrill....don't get me started on that one. :mad:
Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

jenniek
04-13-2012, 01:29 PM
? I wonder why? Did I miss something about this judge?

the judge's husband is a partner at MN lawfirm and since Zimmerman contacted MN to be his attorney they don't want there to be a conflict of interest.

AngelWings444
04-13-2012, 01:30 PM
? I wonder why? Did I miss something about this judge?
Something about the husband of the judge and his relationship to MN, and GZ asking MN to represent him. I don't know..sounds like MN spoke to O'Mara today.

octobermoon
04-13-2012, 01:30 PM
MN saying judge will recuse herself.

Thank you.

Is that because her hubby is partners with MN?

(:banghead: my cable company goes to Newsmakers every time something interesting is on or a commercial :banghead:)

AngelWings444
04-13-2012, 01:31 PM
LOL I don't blame her, as far as I am concerned that is what A corey did- with the doj looking at it I'd distance myself too.

Can you explain the bold? I am lost on that one.

raeann
04-13-2012, 01:32 PM
Something about the husband of the judge and his relationship to MN, and GZ asking MN to represent him. I don't know..sounds like MN spoke to O'Mara today.

It was posted earlier here that the judge's husband is a law firm partner of MN....

and also that MN gave GZ a list of attorneys after he turned him down....so essentially their firm recommended the attorney that GZ hired

jmo

magnolia
04-13-2012, 01:33 PM
Well, I hope all the known facts are considered before it is decided that GZ's actions are covered by the SYG law. I am not sure that he would be convicted if he went to trial but with the actual facts we have now (which are few) I do not believe Stand Your Ground applies in this case. GZ followed Trayvon. He admits he followed Trayvon.

I would rather see GZ acquitted after a trial than have a judge decide now that it is OK in Florida for a person to actively pursue another person and then shoot their way out of the situation that they initiated. The SYG law states you cannot do that, so if this is thrown out of court before it goes anywhere, heaven help us all.

I respectfully disagree. The act of following does not prove GZ was the aggressor. In fact, according to the law, as explained by Richard Hornsby, one can use deadly force if a person they provoke responds with disproportionate force. IMO

http://blog.richardhornsby.com/

Chris_Texas
04-13-2012, 01:33 PM
A feeling I have is there is a camp that has already triad Zimmerman,
they will say he has too much money in his canteen, does not need bond,
He is guilty just because he got out of the car, end of story.

I pray that the justice system will do much much better than that. :please:

I am very eager for some of the facts that we do not have. I heard enough opinions :twocents:

And I pray :please: that Trayvon and his family get justice. Since justice is subjective, I am just gonna say that justice to me would be life without parole. If someone wants to profile, hunt, and kill black kids then I don't want them in my society.

In my opinion.

octobermoon
04-13-2012, 01:35 PM
Judge Stan Strickland will be on with Nancy tonight.

Elley Mae
04-13-2012, 01:35 PM
Can you explain the bold? I am lost on that one.

It is my opinion after reading lots of articles that she over charged and handed it off to the courts to decide.

CathyinTexas
04-13-2012, 01:36 PM
I am actually enjoying the "Sound OFF" thread because
it is more open. I just come here to see that TWO SIDES have some fairness.
NOT only one.
:) There are always as we know my side, your side and the truth.

I see too much one side, I always jump in. You do not see me posting as much as most here.

where is the sound off thread?

Chris_Texas
04-13-2012, 01:38 PM
How was Travon to know that police were coming? :waitasec: The only one that knew police were on their way was GZ, so he's the one that never should have let the situation escalate in the first place, he's the one that should have stayed in the car, knowing full well that police were on their way.

Someone points a gun at you and you say, oh wait, don't shoot me, let's wait for police to get here? Or maybe, hey can you wait a sec while I call 911? :waitasec:

Isn't it easy to sit back in our comfy chairs, long after the fact and say what we would do if someone has a gun pointed at us. Much different than being in that exact moment.

JMHO

We have a decent idea what Trayvon did. He begged for his life, he cried, and then Zimmerman shot him. In my opinion.

RANCH
04-13-2012, 01:39 PM
where is the sound off thread?

It's in the Private Forums.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

octobermoon
04-13-2012, 01:41 PM
Sorry about that link to clickorlando. :(

They are showing it on TRuTV.

AngelWings444
04-13-2012, 01:42 PM
It is my opinion after reading lots of articles that she over charged and handed it off to the courts to decide.
If the charging document is correct, I do not believe she overcharged this case. They may have the toxicology reports and other evidence back by now, supporting a 2nd degree charge.

I don't see her as a "handing off" kind of prosecutor.

JMO

Gin
04-13-2012, 01:43 PM
Also CNN

Adrienne37
04-13-2012, 01:43 PM
We have a decent idea what Trayvon did. He begged for his life, he cried, and then Zimmerman shot him. In my opinion.

For 44 long seconds.

~jmo~

BetteDavisEyes
04-13-2012, 01:44 PM
I heard this report while I was running errands earlier. It was news to me that Michigan has its own version of "Stand Your Ground".

Debate Surrounds ‘Stand Your Ground’ After Teen’s Death

April 13, 2012 11:37 AM

Reporting Charlie Langton

DETROIT (CBS) – The Travyon Martin case has ignited a whirlwind of heated discussion around the “Stand Your Ground” law in Stanford, Florida. What a lot of people may not know is that Michigan also has a Stand Your Ground law...

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/04/13/debate-surrounds-stand-your-ground-after-teens-death/

Phoenixfla
04-13-2012, 01:45 PM
Sigh... why don't we ever get any killers in FL that can afford their own legal defense?

Yes - Palm Beach Polo Tycoon John Goodman with the girlfriend that became his adopted daughter.

octobermoon
04-13-2012, 01:46 PM
Is anybody catching what MOM is saying? I need subtitles.

jenniek
04-13-2012, 01:48 PM
Is anybody catching what MOM is saying? I need subtitles.

He's going to file a motion to have her disqualified because MN is going to be very vocal in this case.

SuziQ
04-13-2012, 01:49 PM
GREAT POST. :clap: :clap:

:( Sadly I believe that the cases that get attention are money machines.
I want to know why Al has not gone after the case you just mentioned?
I have not heard about it and it is wrong, that it is not getting more attention.
The only thing I am guessing is the country is racially heated right now,
and just maybe they are doing something without much Tabloid fodder.

But the vengeance and the hate is a very sad sign of the times.
You can hear it in the despicable music of these days.

What? The guys involved in the Tulsa case were arrested and charged asap. Does that compare to Trayvon's case? No.

octobermoon
04-13-2012, 01:51 PM
He's going to file a motion to have her disqualified because MN is going to be very vocal in this case.

I think that is the right thing to do. JMO MOO IMO

I am very impressed with him.

Rob774
04-13-2012, 01:51 PM
I further believe that GZ wasn't completely lying when he said that something like "Tonight you're going to die" was uttered. GZ strikes me as very much living in his own little world and is great at projecting his own stuff on others. I, therefore, believe that it was a grain of truth like there tends to be for most liars, but it was GZ who said it to Trayvon, and it explains the terror filled and anguished cries we heard from Trayvon. GZ was pointing the gun, Trayvon saw it, these words were uttered by GZ. That is also why I think it should have been Murder 1. I am looking forward to the evidence to see if my theory fits.


I'll take it 1 step further...

Since he knew he wasn't the one screaming for help, he decides to take ownage of that as well, since Trayvon can no longer speak for himself.

"I called for help... but nobody helped me."

Glad he had a gun on him huh? That screaming for help, just stopped, the 2nd we hear the gunshot. U think he'd still be calling for help to bring people to where he was at. Unless of course, as most of think, it wasn't him screaming to begin with. IMO....

cityslick
04-13-2012, 01:53 PM
What? The guys involved in the Tulsa case were arrested and charged asap. Does that compare to Trayvon's case? No.

I would think you are going to start seeing comparisons to this case as time moves forward.

Bernhard Goetz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Elley Mae
04-13-2012, 01:57 PM
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-13/news/os-george-zimmerman-hearing-trayvon-martin-20120413_1_status-hearing-second-degree-murder-affidavit

The judge hearing the George Zimmerman case today announced that her husband works for the law firm of Mark NeJame, who's been hired to act as a CNN analyst for this case.

Who'da thunk that ratings would win over justice.

Velouria
04-13-2012, 01:59 PM
Sigh... why don't we ever get any killers in FL that can afford their own legal defense?

Apparently they spend all their money at Target.

LolaMoon08
04-13-2012, 02:00 PM
I respectfully disagree. The act of following does not prove GZ was the aggressor. In fact, according to the law, as explained by Richard Hornsby, one can use deadly force if a person they provoke responds with disproportionate force. IMO

http://blog.richardhornsby.com/

I agree that the act of "following" Trayvon does not make GZ the aggressor, but the mindframe GZ had when he stepped out of that car and began following Trayvon, IMO, makes him the aggressor.

Trayvon, according to Zimmerman, was running from him. According to Zimmerman, he was following Trayvon.

What makes GZ the aggressor is that when he stepped out of that car he was under the impression that these "a**holes always get away" and that Trayvon was a "f***ing punk."

His intention is very clear... he was not going to allow Trayvon to get away. Trayvon was running from a confrontation... Zimmerman was running towards a confrontation... in the simplest terms.

That makes him the aggressor.

MOO

octobermoon
04-13-2012, 02:03 PM
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-13/news/os-george-zimmerman-hearing-trayvon-martin-20120413_1_status-hearing-second-degree-murder-affidavit

The judge hearing the George Zimmerman case today announced that her husband works for the law firm of Mark NeJame, who's been hired to act as a CNN analyst for this case.

Who'da thunk that rating would win over justice.

I think it is more complicated than that. GZ or his family wanted MN to represent him. Her hubby being partners with MN, and the appearance of insider knowledge may not be good for Justice. Or the Judge. All this is JMO

songline
04-13-2012, 02:06 PM
where is the sound off thread?


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

krkrjx
04-13-2012, 02:07 PM
I respectfully disagree. The act of following does not prove GZ was the aggressor. In fact, according to the law, as explained by Richard Hornsby, one can use deadly force if a person they provoke responds with disproportionate force. IMO

http://blog.richardhornsby.com/

There is a difference between two parties being in the same place and one provoking the other into a fight and two parties being separated by some distance and one purposely following the other.

songline
04-13-2012, 02:08 PM
I heard this report while I was running errands earlier. It was news to me that Michigan has its own version of "Stand Your Ground".

Debate Surrounds ‘Stand Your Ground’ After Teen’s Death

April 13, 2012 11:37 AM

Reporting Charlie Langton

DETROIT (CBS) – The Travyon Martin case has ignited a whirlwind of heated discussion around the “Stand Your Ground” law in Stanford, Florida. What a lot of people may not know is that Michigan also has a Stand Your Ground law...

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/04/13/debate-surrounds-stand-your-ground-after-teens-death/

I think there are 26-28 states that have that law.

suzihawk
04-13-2012, 02:11 PM
Apparently they spend all their money at Target.

rimshot - YouTube

LolaMoon08
04-13-2012, 02:12 PM
There is a difference between two parties being in the same place and one provoking the other into a fight and two parties being separated by some distance and one purposely following the other.

Not just following him... but following him with the mindframe that "these a**holes always get away" and that Trayvon was a "f***ing punk." He freely admits to LE on that call that Trayvon is running away... and freely admits that he is following him.

George's own words are what may convict him?

i.b.nora
04-13-2012, 02:12 PM
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-13/news/os-george-zimmerman-hearing-trayvon-martin-20120413_1_status-hearing-second-degree-murder-affidavit

The judge hearing the George Zimmerman case today announced that her husband works for the law firm of Mark NeJame, who's been hired to act as a CNN analyst for this case.

Who'da thunk that ratings would win over justice.
Actually, I think it is about ethics.

"Circuit Judge Jessica Recksiedler said she had an ethical obligation to disclose that and allow Zimmerman's attorney or the special prosecutor to ask her to step down.

No one's made that request yet, but Zimmerman's attorney, Mark O'Mara, said that's an issue that worries him and next week he may ask her to give the case to another judge."

Not sure what your comment about ratings has to do with anything.

songline
04-13-2012, 02:14 PM
In your original post you stated that you had heard enough opinions, that is what I was questioning. We are all here giving our opinions, so your stating that you had heard enough opinions brings into question why you are on an opinion board, then you stated that you are here to post your opinions, I am assuming that since you post your opinion you want the rest of us to read them, but then again as you stated - you have heard enough of our opinions.

But I never said what you said. I do read your opinions.
I find that some too few stand in the middle. I do not believe in one sided anything.
so all those that seem one sided, are not looking just jumping
I would equate that to being no different then want the
police department had done on that night.
jump to conclusion, before a thorough investigating. NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL

lillygator
04-13-2012, 02:15 PM
what is the process to find another judge? how many are in teh county and would they volunteer?

LambChop
04-13-2012, 02:16 PM
I'll take it 1 step further...

Since he knew he wasn't the one screaming for help, he decides to take ownage of that as well, since Trayvon can no longer speak for himself.

"I called for help... but nobody helped me."

Glad he had a gun on him huh? That screaming for help, just stopped, the 2nd we hear the gunshot. U think he'd still be calling for help to bring people to where he was at. Unless of course, as most of think, it wasn't him screaming to begin with. IMO....

Initially, a man named John said he thought the help call was from GZ. So it is possible the first call for help was GZ but he wanted someone to get TM off him so he could get up. There were no 911 calls at that time. I really think GZ was holding onto TM to keep him from getting away and wanted John to help him hold onto TM. When the 911 calls started going into LE I believe that was TM yelling. I think the evidence will show (and we can see it now) that GZ was not willing to let go of TM and TM was struggling to get free. It's possible GZ never told TM who he was and all he wanted was for him to wait until LE got there to clear him. I believe this because GZ never told LE where TM lived. GZ let LE think TM was from outside the community, a thug just looking to break into a condo. jmo

Adrienne37
04-13-2012, 02:17 PM
what is the process to find another judge? how many are in teh county and would they volunteer?

According to HLN, there are 4 judges in Seminole County.



~jmo~

songline
04-13-2012, 02:19 PM
And I pray :please: that Trayvon and his family get justice. Since justice is subjective, I am just gonna say that justice to me would be life without parole. If someone wants to profile, hunt, and kill black kids then I don't want them in my society.

In my opinion.


You call this justice :what: :what: :what: :what: :what: :what:
without knowing all the detail because we do not know all the details.
IMO if he did do any of what you said he should be in jail.
But again we still wait to have FACTS.
Unless you are psychic I do not think you know more then we ALL know.

Gin
04-13-2012, 02:19 PM
Mark Nejame's explanation of the conflict of interest--

Mark Nejame on live air: Very simply if I could summarize it. We received a call (and had permission from Mr. Zimmerman to release this) on March 13 to represent him.
I respectfully declined. Too many family obligations, I just didn't want to be involved at this level at this point in my life with this case.

Then the other attorneys got involved, they left the case, and then I got called back by friends of theirs and they wanted me to take the case.
I rejected it, and by then I'd already signed a contract with CNN and am now with CNN and HLN to be a legal analyst.

Well then after that, apparently the case was charged. It was randomly assigned to Judge Recksiedler who ironically her husband Jason is my law partner. Who runs and manages the personal injury division of my law firm. So obviously we had an issue there. Because I had been contacted by Mr. Zimmerman and had referred Mark O'Mara the case, his current lawyer. And my law partner is the husband of the woman whom I would be analyzing from time to time in my duties as a CNN analyst.

So all this was apparently brought to the attention, and she is doing the right and ethical thing, by bringing it to all parties, as I understand it it has already been brought to all parties. She's doing the proper thing on the record. And the way we are dictated, governed by as lawyers is we want make sure that we avoid any appearances of impropriety.

Lawyers and judges want make sure we do that at all times. For, even if there is nothing going on, which of course, there is not, so that the public does not have a misunderstanding. And that's what is going on here.


JMO/IMO...I do my best to transcribe accurately...any errors are unintentional.

krkrjx
04-13-2012, 02:21 PM
I think there are 26-28 states that have that law.

IIRC we have heard from those who signed Florida's stand your ground legislation, and they have claimed it does not apply in this case.

We have the law in my state and if someone broke into my home in the middle of the night I could legally shoot them to defend myself or my property. However, I could not scare the intruder away and then follow them down the street, around the corner, between buildings, etc., and then invoke stand your ground as a defense.

My state's stand your ground would allow me to protect myself and my property in the face of threat. It would not allow me to pursue the person once they left.

cityslick
04-13-2012, 02:23 PM
Mark Nejame's explanation of the conflict of interest--

Mark Nejame on live air: Very simply if I could summarize it. We received a call (and had permission from Mr. Zimmerman to release this) on March 13 to represent him.
I respectfully declined. Too many family obligations, I just didn't want to be involved at this level at this point in my life with this case.

Then the other attorneys got involved, they left the case, and then I got called back by friends of theirs and they wanted me to take the case.
I rejected it, and by then I'd already signed a contract with CNN and am now with CNN and HLN to be a legal analyst.

Well then after that, apparently the case was charged. It was randomly assigned to Judge Recksiedler who ironically her husband Jason is my law partner. Who runs and manages the personal injury division of my law firm. So obviously we had an issue there because I had been contacted by Mr. Zimmerman and had referred Mark O'Mara the case, his current lawyer and my law partner is the husband of the woman whom I would be analyzing from time to time in my duties as a CNN analyst.

So all this was apparently brought to the attention and she is doing the right and ethical thing, by bringing it to all parties, as I understand it it has already been brought to all parties. She's doing the proper thing on the record, and the way we are dictated governed by as lawyers is we want make sure that we avoid any appearances of impropriety.

Lawers and judges want make sure we do that at all times, for, even if there is nothing going on, which of course, there is not, so that the public does not have a misunderstanding and that's what is going on here.


JMO/IMO...I do my best to transcribe accurately...any errors are unintentional.

I didn't think of it from the standpoint that he would be doing analysis on the judge from time to time which is his partners wife. You can see the conflict there although I wonder if it still would be the case even if GZ had not contacted him.

songline
04-13-2012, 02:25 PM
IIRC we have heard from those who signed Florida's stand your ground legislation, and they have claimed it does not apply in this case.

We have the law in my state and if someone broke into my home in the middle of the night I could legally shoot them to defend myself or my property. However, I could not scare the intruder away and then follow them down the street, around the corner, between buildings, etc., and then invoke stand your ground as a defense.

My state's stand your ground would allow me to protect myself and my property in the face of threat. It would not allow me to pursue the person once they left.

There is something or the Hornsby web site about this.
I have not read it recently.
But seems if your life is threatened even outside of your home
you can shoot and use this law.
Here is his site....
Not sure if it is no there now.
http://blog.richardhornsby.com/

octobermoon
04-13-2012, 02:25 PM
I didn't think of it from the standpoint that he would be doing analysis on the judge from time to time which is his partners wife. You can see the conflict there although I wonder if it still would be the case even if GZ had not contacted him.

Might make things at the office a little tense. ;)

shadowraiths
04-13-2012, 02:26 PM
Wrt GZ's "eye roll" ( link (http://goo.gl/uSSa5) ) I would venture to guess that it may have to do with the fact that he wears contacts. ( link (http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/04/12/zimmerman.commissary.purchases.pdf) )

magnolia
04-13-2012, 02:41 PM
I agree that the act of "following" Trayvon does not make GZ the aggressor, but the mindframe GZ had when he stepped out of that car and began following Trayvon, IMO, makes him the aggressor.

Trayvon, according to Zimmerman, was running from him. According to Zimmerman, he was following Trayvon.

What makes GZ the aggressor is that when he stepped out of that car he was under the impression that these "a**holes always get away" and that Trayvon was a "f***ing punk."

His intention is very clear... he was not going to allow Trayvon to get away. Trayvon was running from a confrontation... Zimmerman was running towards a confrontation... in the simplest terms.

That makes him the aggressor.

MOO

None of those acts are unlawful, nor would they be considered legally provocative acts. According to the law, who the aggressor was is really irrelevant. It is what took place after physical contact. RH explains the law in detail and provides the Florida Statues.

http://blog.richardhornsby.com/

i.b.nora
04-13-2012, 02:44 PM
Stand Your Ground is not the same as right to self defense in your home (or your "Castle")
Stand Your Ground takes it out into the public square. It sets this country back decades, if not centuries. IMO.

krkrjx
04-13-2012, 02:46 PM
There is something or the Hornsby web site about this.
I have not read it recently.
But seems if your life is threatened even outside of your home
you can shoot and use this law.
Here is his site....
Not sure if it is no there now.
http://blog.richardhornsby.com/

I agree stand your ground states that. And in the scenario that I provided in my previous post, if I scared away the intruder and then followed them around the neighborhood, and they pulled a gun, I could shoot to defend myself. But it would be a self-defense issue for the courts to decide; it would not be a stand your ground issue. And even with my self-defense claim, I would no doubt have some legal liability in the matter once it became known that the immediate threat had left but I chose to pursue it.

Now, maybe GZ did feel he had to use force to protect himself once the fight started. I wasn't there so I have no way of knowing one way or the other. But even if this is so, it would be a self-defense issue that has nothing to do with stand your ground, IMO. And GZ would have some liability in that he was not in harm's way until he decided to put himself there. He wes told LE was on the way and he did not need to follow Trayvon; he followed him anway.

Trayvon may have been perceived as a threat by GZ. But he was not an immediate threat, as he was walking away from GZ. If Trayvon at some point became an immediate threat to GZ it was due to GZ putting himself in that position.

There are two possible defenses here, IMO: Self-defense and stand your ground. I do not feel that stand you ground applies. But that's my opinion based on what we know currently. My opinion may change later, or it may not.

songline
04-13-2012, 02:49 PM
Wrt GZ's "eye roll" ( link (http://goo.gl/uSSa5) ) I would venture to guess that it may have to do with the fact that he wears contacts. ( link (http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/04/12/zimmerman.commissary.purchases.pdf) )
Actually I do read some body language, not an expert, but pretty good at it.
this is what I see.
Early on he looked to the right - I imagine he looked up at a camera.
(in NY - I have seen cameras on both sides) Ithink that is what that was,
He does have a often blink. Is it a nervouse condition? it can be but it is not a rolling of the eyes.

LolaMoon08
04-13-2012, 02:50 PM
You call this justice :what: :what: :what: :what: :what: :what:
without knowing all the detail because we do not know all the details.
IMO if he did do any of what you said he should be in jail.
But again we still wait to have FACTS.
Unless you are psychic I do not think you know more then we ALL know.

Justice is that George Zimmerman has been arrested and charged for the unjustified death of Trayvon Martin and will have to stand in front of our court system to determine what, if any, punishment he gets.

None of us have the facts, but that doesn't stop those people who support GZ's side of the story from stating their opinions? This is a discussion forum and with every case, we discuss our opinions until we do get the facts. We are justified in our opinions. All of us.

MOO

LambChop
04-13-2012, 02:50 PM
Wrt GZ's "eye roll" ( link (http://goo.gl/uSSa5) ) I would venture to guess that it may have to do with the fact that he wears contacts. ( link (http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/04/12/zimmerman.commissary.purchases.pdf) )

I think so, too. I did not see it as an eye roll. jmo

Elley Mae
04-13-2012, 02:51 PM
http://www.news4jax.com/news/Attorney-for-George-Zimmerman-seeks-judge-s-recusal/-/475880/10702954/-/4abg7h/-/index.html

For all the relief among civil rights activists over the arrest, legal experts warned there is a real chance the case could get thrown out before it ever goes to trial because of the "stand your ground" law.

RANCH
04-13-2012, 02:52 PM
IIRC we have heard from those who signed Florida's stand your ground legislation, and they have claimed it does not apply in this case.

We have the law in my state and if someone broke into my home in the middle of the night I could legally shoot them to defend myself or my property. However, I could not scare the intruder away and then follow them down the street, around the corner, between buildings, etc., and then invoke stand your ground as a defense.

My state's stand your ground would allow me to protect myself and my property in the face of threat. It would not allow me to pursue the person once they left.

BBM
If the politicians had written the law differently, there would be no question about GZ's guilt. They should have made SYG only apply to ones home or business, not anyplace they have a right to be.

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

csziggy
04-13-2012, 02:52 PM
what is the process to find another judge? how many are in teh county and would they volunteer?

Seminole County is in the Eighteenth Judicial Circuit and there are a number of other judges there:
http://www.flcourts18.org/biographies.html

I'm not sure about the process for changing judges.

Isabelle
04-13-2012, 02:53 PM
This judge should recuse herself from this case. There are too many trust issues involved now.

katydid23
04-13-2012, 02:53 PM
GREAT POST. :clap: :clap:

:( Sadly I believe that the cases that get attention are money machines.
I want to know why Al has not gone after the case you just mentioned?
I have not heard about it and it is wrong, that it is not getting more attention.
The only thing I am guessing is the country is racially heated right now,
and just maybe they are doing something without much Tabloid fodder.

But the vengeance and the hate is a very sad sign of the times.
You can hear it in the despicable music of these days.

He is there right now with his entourage and the cameras, AFAIK.

And interesting about that case. The white guy who was shooting random blacks. His father was allegedly killed by a black shooter WHO SUCCESSFULLY USED THE SYG LAW. So round and round we go.

Elley Mae
04-13-2012, 02:57 PM
He is there right now with his entourage and the cameras, AFAIK.

And interesting about that case. The white guy who was shooting random blacks. His father was allegedly killed by a black shooter WHO SUCCESSFULLY USED THE SYG LAW. So round and round we go.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/murder_hate_crime_charges_filed_fiO3WLGCKXPhg9fPHx CoTJ

Oklahoma prosecutors on Friday filed murder and hate crime charges against two men arrested in connection with an Easter weekend shooting spree in Tulsa that left three African-Americans dead and two others wounded.

As it should be!

katydid23
04-13-2012, 02:59 PM
This judge should recuse herself from this case. There are too many trust issues involved now.

I agree. And she is such a new judge. I would really like to see a very experienced judge take on this case. There is no room for missteps here.

gitana1
04-13-2012, 02:59 PM
I agree. I think that is is a shame that someone died. I feel awful for the family for their loss, but at least let all the facts come out before the electric chair is plugged in.

There were people who said the same thing about casey anthony. They stated that those of us who felt she was guilty were on a witch hunt, not open-minded, wanted her executed without trial, were a lynch mob, were jumping the gun by not waiting for facts to come out at trial, not giving casey the benefit of the doubt, etc.

IMO, those who felt that what we knew prior to the arrest indicated casey was guilty of some form of murder, were basing that belief on logic. I feel the same use of logic applies here.

I don't like to toot my own horn but, I excel at logic. It's one thing I'm very, very good at. And logic - not emotion, hysteria, a mob attitude, preconceived notions regarding race or ethnicity, etc. - tells me Zimmerman stalked and hunted that kid down, was the aggressor and unjustly shot him.

Hey, I'm used to analyzing a set of facts dispassionately and trying to see both sides to an argument. It's what I do for a living. I've done that here.

But, I'll wait for more "facts" just like I did in casey anthony's case. There is always more to know, more pieces to the puzzle.


I'm interested in why this case has become such a lightening rod for hate.

Just last week there were two men from Tulsa who went out at night, armed, with the intent of shooting Black people and they did - 5 of them - totally innocent people they had no beef with whatsoever.

Why are they being ignored, and George Zimmerman probably wouldn't survive outside of the jail right now?

I guess I didn't ever really understand the seething hate people have for CA either, how she's different from any other mom who kills their darling child and then lies about it.

It's baffling why the public becomes riveted on certain cases, with a blood lust for vengeance, and other cases are pretty much ignored that seem much worse to me.

I resent what appears to be the inference that those who want justice for Trayvon are fueled by "hate". Or maybe I don't. Maybe it's accurate. I hate injustice, so yeah, I guess I am fueled by hate.

The reason this case is getting so much attention, while the OK case is not, is really quite simple. There was a solid investigation, quick arrests and charges levied there. The whole reason this case is controversial, as many have repeated over and over again, is what was an apparent lack of justice.

It appeared to many/most that the initial investigation and the decision not to levy charges, was based on race, on racial profiling. Racial injustice, especially institutional racism, has a long history in our country and remains a major issue. It took the governor giving the case to a special prosecutor before the wheels began to roll at all. Huge difference between that and how the murders in OK were handled. The analogy would be logical if the folks in OK essentially ignored the murders there.

And why was casey anthony such a huge case when so many parents kill their kids? That's easy. It was bizarre, she is bizarre, her family and attorneys are bizarre, the facts were bizarre.

The intricate level of lying, the unusual behavior of the parents, the odd smirkiness and apathy of the mother, the fact that all of this happened to a seemingly much loved middle class kid in the suburbs and the circus atmosphere created by casey's attorneys really made that case something to watch. :twocents:

LolaMoon08
04-13-2012, 03:00 PM
None of those acts are unlawful, nor would they be considered legally provocative acts. According to the law, who the aggressor was is really irrelevant. It is what took place after physical contact. RH explains the law in detail and provides the Florida Statues.

http://blog.richardhornsby.com/

The fact that we will never know the full story of what happened after physical contact was first made... you have to put into consideration, state of mind as it goes to intent. George Zimmerman intentionally got out of his car with the sole purpose of following Trayvon with the frame of mind that these "a**holes always get away" and that Trayvon was a "f***ing punk." He admits that Trayvon was running away! He admits that he was following Trayvon. Any reasonable person would not only see him as the aggressor, but as the one, who most likely made physical contact first. There is no way a jury is going to believe that Trayvon, after running away from George, would jump George from behind. It's insulting.

MOO

songline
04-13-2012, 03:01 PM
I agree stand your ground states that. And in the scenario that I provided in my previous post, if I scared away the intruder and then followed them around the neighborhood, and they pulled a gun, I could shoot to defend myself. But it would be a self-defense issue for the courts to decide; it would not be a stand your ground issue. And even with my self-defense claim, I would no doubt have some legal liability in the matter once it became known that the immediate threat had left but I chose to pursue it.

Now, maybe GZ did feel he had to use force to protect himself once the fight started. I wasn't there so I have no way of knowing one way or the other. But even if this is so, it would be a self-defense issue that has nothing to do with stand your ground, IMO. And GZ would have some liability in that he was not in harm's way until he decided to put himself there. He wes told LE was on the way and he did not need to follow Trayvon; he followed him anway.

Trayvon may have been perceived as a threat by GZ. But he was not an immediate threat, as he was walking away from GZ. If Trayvon at some point became an immediate threat to GZ it was due to GZ putting himself in that position.

There are two possible defenses here, IMO: Self-defense and stand your ground. I do not feel that stand you ground applies. But that's my opinion based on what we know currently. My opinion may change later, or it may not.

I love your posts krkrjx - I can see you are about justice no matter how the case goes. :)
You are one that I would have in my circle of friends. :blowkiss: What I do not like is any rush to judgment on any side.

I toatlly agree that George was overzelouse, and will do have to be accountable so may need to do some time.
I do not think George went looking for trouble at all. IMHO with 8 roberies and him being on the watch team he knew who the suspects were.
I have no idea how his legal team will handle it. I only know that law needs to be fixed.

Dr.Fessel
04-13-2012, 03:01 PM
None of those acts are unlawful, nor would they be considered legally provocative acts. According to the law, who the aggressor was is really irrelevant. It is what took place after physical contact. RH explains the law in detail and provides the Florida Statues.

http://blog.richardhornsby.com/

In this case Zimmerman's actions as an aggressor are part of the charge against him. His thinking process is part of the charge against him. It all goes to the murder charge. Now the SA feels she has enough evidence to prove who touched who first or who was really in fear of their life.

Everything that took place before the contact is very important to the charge in this case.

mercuriod
04-13-2012, 03:04 PM
Apparently they spend all their money at Target.

LOL, I shop at Walmart so I must not be a criminal :floorlaugh: :floorlaugh:

nursebeeme
04-13-2012, 03:06 PM
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Thread #1 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165269&highlight=Trayvon)
Thread #2 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166351&highlight=Trayvon+martin)
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Thread #22 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168628)
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bumping up for the link to the SOUND OFF...

gitana1
04-13-2012, 03:06 PM
None of those acts are unlawful, nor would they be considered legally provocative acts. According to the law, who the aggressor was is really irrelevant. It is what took place after physical contact. RH explains the law in detail and provides the Florida Statues.

http://blog.richardhornsby.com/

Some legal experts are interpreting the law in the manner Hornsby states. Some are not. I have a feeling this law will be subject to judicial clarification at some point in the future, possibly via this case. If you are correct, then Zimmerman will likely walk.

LinasK
04-13-2012, 03:07 PM
That would be fun!! :floorlaugh: GZ thought Trayvon was a scary looking person... put him in the same room with FCA for a few days and he'll be a changed man!
She's probably mad that he's stealing her thunder!

gitana1
04-13-2012, 03:12 PM
bumping up for the link to the SOUND OFF...

Oops. In one of my last posts, I mentioned racial politics as a reason this case is getting so much attention. I thought it was okay because I was answering and not discussing whether there has been such injustice here. Maybe not! I will be careful and try to tread lightly. Apologies if I was out of line!

magnolia
04-13-2012, 03:12 PM
I agree stand your ground states that. And in the scenario that I provided in my previous post, if I scared away the intruder and then followed them around the neighborhood, and they pulled a gun, I could shoot to defend myself. But it would be a self-defense issue for the courts to decide; it would not be a stand your ground issue. And even with my self-defense claim, I would no doubt have some legal liability in the matter once it became known that the immediate threat had left but I chose to pursue it.

Now, maybe GZ did feel he had to use force to protect himself once the fight started. I wasn't there so I have no way of knowing one way or the other. But even if this is so, it would be a self-defense issue that has nothing to do with stand your ground, IMO. And GZ would have some liability in that he was not in harm's way until he decided to put himself there. He wes told LE was on the way and he did not need to follow Trayvon; he followed him anway.

Trayvon may have been perceived as a threat by GZ. But he was not an immediate threat, as he was walking away from GZ. If Trayvon at some point became an immediate threat to GZ it was due to GZ putting himself in that position.

There are two possible defenses here, IMO: Self-defense and stand your ground. I do not feel that stand you ground applies. But that's my opinion based on what we know currently. My opinion may change later, or it may not.

I really don't think it matters whether GZ put himself in that position or not. It is all about what happened after the physical contact. IMO

Donjeta
04-13-2012, 03:13 PM
I'm interested in why this case has become such a lightening rod for hate.

Just last week there were two men from Tulsa who went out at night, armed, with the intent of shooting Black people and they did - 5 of them - totally innocent people they had no beef with whatsoever.

Why are they being ignored, and George Zimmerman probably wouldn't survive outside of the jail right now?

I guess I didn't ever really understand the seething hate people have for CA either, how she's different from any other mom who kills their darling child and then lies about it.

It's baffling why the public becomes riveted on certain cases, with a blood lust for vengeance, and other cases are pretty much ignored that seem much worse to me.


I think there are several factors.
The amount of media, of course. I think the Sunshine laws made a difference in the CA case because there was a lot for the media to report on and more to hate, so to speak. Cases that are kept close to the vest tend to go away faster, in the media and people's minds because it's hard to be riveted on a case when there are never any updates. TM has got a lot of media too, for obvious reasons. Maybe less from now on because the docs were sealed.

A second factor is IMO the swiftness of resolution. If LE arrests the suspects within a few days and the crime is treated as a closed case it does not keep them on the edge of their seats like the cases in which there is a mystery about whodunit and whathappened and whowillbenext or fear that the obvious suspects are never arrested and the victim will never get justice. If it's a quick arrest people perceive that the justice system is gonna do its job and don't have to worry so much. If they think the guilty parties got away with it they are more upset.

A third factor IMO is the sideshow. In the CA case there was a lot of sideshow to keep people appalled even when CA herself was doing nothing to excite comment. Here we've got the political figures and the questions about the police work.

mercuriod
04-13-2012, 03:13 PM
There is something or the Hornsby web site about this.
I have not read it recently.
But seems if your life is threatened even outside of your home
you can shoot and use this law.
Here is his site....
Not sure if it is no there now.
http://blog.richardhornsby.com/

That is correct the SYG in Florida means whatever ground you happen to be standing on. The difference is you can not initiate a confrontation, have the other person walk away from the confrontation, then you pursue the other person who is trying to get away and you then kill them.

gitana1
04-13-2012, 03:15 PM
You call this justice :what: :what: :what: :what: :what: :what:
without knowing all the detail because we do not know all the details.
IMO if he did do any of what you said he should be in jail.
But again we still wait to have FACTS.
Unless you are psychic I do not think you know more then we ALL know.

Hi friend! I call it the beginning of justice. When there is no arrest at all in a case where all the facts are not known, it's easy to see why some feel justice has not occurred. Most of us simply wanted Zimmerman to answer charges and have his day in court.

flourish
04-13-2012, 03:15 PM
And I pray :please: that Trayvon and his family get justice. Since justice is subjective, I am just gonna say that justice to me would be life without parole. If someone wants to profile, hunt, and kill black kids then I don't want them in my society.

In my opinion.


You call this justice :what: :what: :what: :what: :what: :what:
without knowing all the detail because we do not know all the details.
IMO if he did do any of what you said he should be in jail.
But again we still wait to have FACTS.
Unless you are psychic I do not think you know more then we ALL know.

Uh, the poster clearly states that justice is subjective and the post is clearly the poster's opinion. Opinions can be subject to change as more information becomes available. Also, please note the "If" in the last sentence...no indication of claimed psychic ability that I can see!

gitana1
04-13-2012, 03:18 PM
what is the process to find another judge? how many are in teh county and would they volunteer?

I haven't had time to read each page of the thread yet. What's the issue with this judge? TIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

magnolia
04-13-2012, 03:23 PM
Some legal experts are interpreting the law in the manner Hornsby states. Some are not. I have a feeling this law will be subject to judicial clarification at some point in the future, possibly via this case. If you are correct, then Zimmerman will likely walk.

No doubt,this will be a very interesting case to follow.

Gin
04-13-2012, 03:27 PM
Oops. In one of my last posts, I mentioned racial politics as a reason this case is getting so much attention. I thought it was okay because I was answering and not discussing whether there has been such injustice here. Maybe not! I will be careful and try to tread lightly. Apologies if I was out of line!

gitana1,
FWIW I think you both tread lightly, and are very respectful in your posts. I find your comments thoughtful, educational, and I really appreciate the perspective they provide.

magnolia
04-13-2012, 03:29 PM
That is correct the SYG in Florida means whatever ground you happen to be standing on. The difference is you can not initiate a confrontation, have the other person walk away from the confrontation, then you pursue the other person who is trying to get away and you then kill them.

We don't know this is exactly the way it happened though.:) Did GZ confront Trayvon?

gitana1
04-13-2012, 03:32 PM
I would think you are going to start seeing comparisons to this case as time moves forward.

Bernhard Goetz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Goetz)

Kind of. Except the guys he shot were trying to mug him. The facts here per the call to police by Zimmerman, what was found on Trayvon's body, the statements by the girlfriend, do not at all indicate Trayvon was a thug looking for trouble. Instead, he was a kid trying to get home in the rain. Big difference to me.

Also, Goetz illegally carried a gun while Zimmerman did not.

But, Zimmerman and Goetz may be similar personalities, IMO and I do understand the comparison.

ETA: I can't be sure about my last statement, in retrospect. Goetz had been assaulted before and I think he was scared, and not merely hunting "bad guys" as a self-appointed cop wanna' be.

shadowraiths
04-13-2012, 03:34 PM
Actually I do read some body language, not an expert, but pretty good at it.
this is what I see.
Early on he looked to the right - I imagine he looked up at a camera.
(in NY - I have seen cameras on both sides) Ithink that is what that was,
He does have a often blink. Is it a nervouse condition? it can be but it is not a rolling of the eyes.
Yeah, I thought the same thing (i.e., looking up at the camera), but the actual eye movement seems unnatural, which led me to wonder if he might have some sort of neurological thing going on. Then, I read the commissary list, and saw the contact solution. Don't know for certain, if wearing contacts and having something in your eye, for example, can result in that sort of 'twitch.' Just a guess. Either way, I totally agree that he wasn't "rolling his eyes" (aka a sign of disrespect).

That aside, and speaking of that hearing, he looks emotionally beaten down to me. I must admit, I feel sorry for the guy. While I, personally, am of the opinion that he acted in a cop wannabe fashion, I think the guy has been vilified beyond actions that have yet to be proven in a court of law.

RANCH
04-13-2012, 03:35 PM
I haven't had time to read each page of the thread yet. What's the issue with this judge? TIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The judge hearing the George Zimmerman case today announced that her husband works for the law firm of Mark NeJame, who's been hired to act as a CNN analyst for this case.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-13/news/os-george-zimmerman-hearing-trayvon-martin-20120413_1_status-hearing-second-degree-murder-affidavit

grammieto5
04-13-2012, 03:35 PM
There is something or the Hornsby web site about this.
I have not read it recently.
But seems if your life is threatened even outside of your home
you can shoot and use this law.
Here is his site....
Not sure if it is no there now.
http://blog.richardhornsby.com/

Are you talking about #1 Retreat to the Wall?

gitana1
04-13-2012, 03:38 PM
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-13/news/os-george-zimmerman-hearing-trayvon-martin-20120413_1_status-hearing-second-degree-murder-affidavit

Thanks, Ranch. Yeah, we need a case with no question as to the fairness of the proceedings. I'd also like a judge who has a bunch of experience. Although that is no guarantee.

LolaMoon08
04-13-2012, 03:43 PM
We don't know this is exactly the way it happened though.:)

I think George's own words to LE that night prove that this is exactly what happened?

George clearly states that Trayvon is running away.

George gets out of his truck with the mindframe that "these a**holes always get away" and that Trayvon was a "f***ing punk."

LE clearly tell George, "we don't need you to be doing that." Maybe not a direct order, but a direct request from LE that George ignored. He was told not to follow Trayvon and he was told that LE was on the way.

I think it is pretty clear that George was not going back to his truck because he would have told LE that they could find him in a black (insert make/model) truck. He instead told LE that he needed them to call HIM back so that he could tell them where he was which shows, IMO, that George was not going to follow LE's directions to stop following Trayvon and he was "intent" on finding Trayvon.

Trayvon was not looking for a confrontation... George Zimmerman was.

Now what happened after George caught up with Trayvon, we are going to have to piece together once we have more facts. I refuse to go by what George's family says because it's insulting and plays like a really badly written script.

MOO

katydid23
04-13-2012, 03:44 PM
I haven't had time to read each page of the thread yet. What's the issue with this judge? TIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The judge is married to Mark NeJames law partner. And NeJames was communicating with GZ and helped him secure his present attorney.

uvamerica
04-13-2012, 03:55 PM
Does anyone know if there are camera's in the gated community ? maybe one at the gate or the clubhouse ?

grandmaj
04-13-2012, 04:04 PM
The other thing I keep wondering about is if there is a witness, or witnesses that we haven't heard from in the news. Someone who kept their counsel and talked only to investigators.

frenchvixen
04-13-2012, 04:05 PM
Hi friend! I call it the beginning of justice. When there is no arrest at all in a case where all the facts are not known, it's easy to see why some feel justice has not occurred. Most of us simply wanted Zimmerman to answer charges and have his day in court.

I remember seeing what was needed to using SYG as a defense and one of them is that you were supposed to have been in that place (meaning you can't rob a bank and then use SYG). My question is did GZ belong there? He did not live in that part of the complex. So, once the 911 operator told him to back off did he wander off in territory that he did not belong in and thus he does not satisfy the requirements necessary for standing his ground?

annalia
04-13-2012, 04:06 PM
Does anyone know if there are camera's in the gated community ? maybe one at the gate or the clubhouse ?

I recall someone posting a picture of a camera, ( maybe it was at the entrance?) and then some discussion on whether it was operable, and whether or not anyone looked at it.

JMHO

grammieto5
04-13-2012, 04:08 PM
I just finished reading Richard Hornsby's "Stand Your Ground" Very interesting!!! I think we should go back to Arrest First, Ask Questions Later, at least that way there would be
some evidence.

Emma Peel
04-13-2012, 04:10 PM
Question:

This judge (who may step down) ... already accepted the SA's argument as far as finding probable cause...

If when she steps down ...

Does the new judge get to start over and re-assess probable cause?

:waitasec:

probably not. but I thought I'd ask...

legalmania
04-13-2012, 04:11 PM
The other thing I keep wondering about is if there is a witness, or witnesses that we haven't heard from in the news. Someone who kept their counsel and talked only to investigators.

IMO the prosecutor has something ,either a witness or evidence the we haven't heard about to come up with second degree murder.

raeann
04-13-2012, 04:13 PM
Question:

This judge (who may step down) ... already accepted the SA's argument as far as finding probable cause...

If when she steps down ...

Does the new judge get to start over and re-assess probable cause?

:waitasec:

probably not. but I thought I'd ask...

This was NOT the judge who accepted probable cause. She was assigned after that hearing was held. Today was her first action regarding the case.

jmo

legalmania
04-13-2012, 04:15 PM
I just finished reading Richard Hornsby's "Stand Your Ground" Very interesting!!! I think we should go back to Arrest First, Ask Questions Later, at least that way there would be
some evidence.

It's that a little bit risky? To arrest you have to have probable cause, if they can't prove that then it looks as if they are rushing to judgement. IMO they should take as much time as they need to arrest and make sure they can prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.

jjenny
04-13-2012, 04:15 PM
I remember seeing what was needed to using SYG as a defense and one of them is that you were supposed to have been in that place (meaning you can't rob a bank and then use SYG). My question is did GZ belong there? He did not live in that part of the complex. So, once the 911 operator told him to back off did he wander off in territory that he did not belong in and thus he does not satisfy the requirements necessary for standing his ground?

No, that is not how it works. Robbing a bank is illegal. Thus a person can not rob a bank and claim SYG because they were in a process of doing something illegal. Being in a gated community is legal regardless of what part of the community Zimmerman was at.

beach
04-13-2012, 04:22 PM
The other thing I keep wondering about is if there is a witness, or witnesses that we haven't heard from in the news. Someone who kept their counsel and talked only to investigators.

Wouldn't that be refreshing? :angel:


Seriously, I am fed up with all these witnesses and/or their attorneys who need to spill their guts and/or get their 15 minutes of fame (really tho?) BEFORE they are deposed and testify.

I am becoming very jaded and cynical about all those kind of folks.

cityslick
04-13-2012, 04:23 PM
Kind of. Except the guys he shot were trying to mug him. The facts here per the call to police by Zimmerman, what was found on Trayvon's body, the statements by the girlfriend, do not at all indicate Trayvon was a thug looking for trouble. Instead, he was a kid trying to get home in the rain. Big difference to me.

Also, Goetz illegally carried a gun while Zimmerman did not.

But, Zimmerman and Goetz may be similar personalities, IMO and I do understand the comparison.

ETA: I can't be sure about my last statement, in retrospect. Goetz had been assaulted before and I think he was scared, and not merely hunting "bad guys" as a self-appointed cop wanna' be.

I was a little too young at the time to understand the circumstances when it first happened, but from what I read, the beginnings of that case, public perception started from the same point. You had two very distinct sides, one that thought he was justified in what he did due to fear and the other that based off of vigilantism. I'm sure the question came up then as to how does the court determine when one is in 'fear' enough to justify using deadly force (although they did not die, they could of).

krkrjx
04-13-2012, 04:23 PM
I really don't think it matters whether GZ put himself in that position or not. It is all about what happened after the physical contact. IMO

And that may very well be what the court decides in this case. However, my stance right now is that this should go through a legal process that allows the truth to come out, if it is at all possible for that to happen. If this is deemed a flat-out stand your ground issue right now and thus dismissed by a judge, we will never have a chance to find out what happened after the physical contact. At best it will be difficult given only one party of a two-party confrontation is still living.

Maybe GZ has a self-defense claim with merit. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe the prosecutor has information that can answer some of the questions we all have. Maybe not. But if the case is simply dismissed now, we will never really know, and the current unrest will not diminish anytime soon. Indeed it may escalate.

cityslick
04-13-2012, 04:25 PM
I just finished reading Richard Hornsby's "Stand Your Ground" Very interesting!!! I think we should go back to Arrest First, Ask Questions Later, at least that way there would be
some evidence.

I respectfully disagree.....strongly.

magnolia
04-13-2012, 04:27 PM
In this case Zimmerman's actions as an aggressor are part of the charge against him. His thinking process is part of the charge against him. It all goes to the murder charge. Now the SA feels she has enough evidence to prove who touched who first or who was really in fear of their life.

Everything that took place before the contact is very important to the charge in this case.

I'm very anxious to see what evidence the SA really has.

grammieto5
04-13-2012, 04:28 PM
It's that a little bit risky? To arrest you have to have probable cause, if they can't prove that then it looks as if they are rushing to judgement. IMO they should take as much time as they need to arrest and make sure they can prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.

If there are two people, one dead and the other admitting he shot the other person, to not arrest the shooter and get all the evidence, samples of blood, take pictures of all bruises, and wounds, xray the broken nose, do test, keep clothing worn by shooter, would be to just believe the person who killed the other person, wouldn't it? Where would the justice be for the person who was shot?

cityslick
04-13-2012, 04:30 PM
If there are two people, one dead and the other admitting he shot the other person, to not arrest the shooter and get all the evidence, samples of blood, take pictures of all bruises, and wounds, xray the broken nose, do test, keep clothing worn by shooter, would be to just believe the person who killed the other person, wouldn't it? Where would the justice be for the person who was shot?

In a separate instance (not this case), how would you know that the person who was shot wasn't trying to rob or attack the one with the gun? What if someone actually did get attacked and defended themselves to the point of killing the attacker? You automatically arrest the person still alive?

Emma Peel
04-13-2012, 04:32 PM
The other thing I keep wondering about is if there is a witness, or witnesses that we haven't heard from in the news. Someone who kept their counsel and talked only to investigators.

I've been noodling some things - but they're kind of a stretch, I think ...

They have to prove that GZ crossed some line with an imminently dangerous act - while showing a depraved lack of regard for human life.

44 (?) 911 calls from GZ prior - shows GZ's 911-call mindset?

Prove GZ knew better as a community watch official - here's community watch rules GZ promised to uphold? (Such that performing watch duties while armed can be considered so defiant that it's a "depraved lack of regard"?)

Prove GZ had the expectation of confrontation & conflict? (based on GZ experience doing this time and time again?)

Prove that GZ pursued & and therefore invited & expected confrontation all while carrying a loaded weapon? (imminently dangerous act)

:dunno:

wondering if something about previous 911-recorded-gz-history or his community watch status - could be deemed evidence of 1) GZ knew the dangers and 2) his state of mind?

2goldfish
04-13-2012, 04:35 PM
I didn't write the article, but at the end of the day if this goes to trial, it's going to be about this as well as race. Because you going to have those that say he had no business carrying a gun even if he was licensed for it and those on the NRA/right to bear arms side will say he had every right to carry a gun if he was permitted, no matter where he was.


oh well you know you always get people who dont agree with this that and the other. IMO the problem was not that GZ was armed, the problem was the GZ was a lit fuse that blew.

although I could see how saying that if he had no gun he wouldnt have been following trayvon to begin with being probably true.


but so is the adage guns dont kill people, people do.

frenchvixen
04-13-2012, 04:36 PM
No, that is not how it works. Robbing a bank is illegal. Thus a person can not rob a bank and claim SYG because they were in a process of doing something illegal. Being in a gated community is legal regardless of what part of the community Zimmerman was at.

So, who would not belong there? I remember Toobin from CNN going step by step with the necessary requirements and he stated "TM belonged there b/c he was visiting his dad" and so forth. So, if GZ had no business being there what ground is he standing? He should have stood his ground in his car (stand your car dammit) like he was directed to do.

2goldfish
04-13-2012, 04:37 PM
the judge's husband is a partner at MN lawfirm and since Zimmerman contacted MN to be his attorney they don't want there to be a conflict of interest.


is it weird of me to be grateful that if GZ had to ask a lawyer related to the anthony fiasco to represent, that he chose MN over JB? :waitasec:

Emma Peel
04-13-2012, 04:42 PM
This was NOT the judge who accepted probable cause. She was assigned after that hearing was held. Today was her first action regarding the case.

jmo

:doh:

oh gosh. thanks. that's what I get for not watchin' it on the tube.

next questions:

1) Can the next judge disagree that there's probable cause prior to the bond hearing & just vacate the charges?

2) Won't MOM assert self-defense at the bond hearing & motion for dismissal before any pleading or bond request?

TIA. I can't watch the talking heads, so hoping someone covered these points...

grammieto5
04-13-2012, 04:43 PM
In a separate instance (not this case), how would you know that the person who was shot wasn't trying to rob or attack the one with the gun? What if someone actually did get attacked and defended themselves to the point of killing the attacker? You automatically arrest the person still alive?

Wouldn't it depend on where the attack took place, and what the scene looked like, how the two people each looked?

songline
04-13-2012, 04:44 PM
Justice is that George Zimmerman has been arrested and charged for the unjustified death of Trayvon Martin and will have to stand in front of our court system to determine what, if any, punishment he gets.

None of us have the facts, but that doesn't stop those people who support GZ's side of the story from stating their opinions? This is a discussion forum and with every case, we discuss our opinions until we do get the facts. We are justified in our opinions. All of us.

MOO

The only people I see standing up for GZ are interested in the facts and will be happy with a
JUST verdict and not by the public but by a USA court.
SO FAR that is all I have been saying.
and no I do not like stroking one side while vilifying the other.
ESPECIALLY since we do not know, but it seems to me that people are so convince that they know it all.
I have not read anyone who wants to see that GZ gets fair trial say that he should not be accountable,
or that the law is not terrible, or that the police did rush things.
NO i do not see them doing that at all. I see them wanting the facts.

ThoughtFox
04-13-2012, 04:44 PM
So, who would not belong there? I remember Toobin from CNN going step by step with the necessary requirements and he stated "TM belonged there b/c he was visiting his dad" and so forth. So, if GZ had no business being there what ground is he standing? He should have stood his ground in his car (stand your car dammit) like he was directed to do.

That's exactly how the law was meant to be interpreted. It is supposed to protect you if you're in your home, car, or business and can't get away.

Out in the open when you are the one following someone? Not really what they had in mind, and in fact if you click the link to the Gun Licensing page in my sig, it explicitly states that you can't wave a gun around at someone while making threats, you can't shoot someone because they said something you don't like, and you have to be in serious danger of your life or protecting someone else from harm.

George tried to say that he was scared of Trayvon who was slamming his head into the sidewalk, but the problem is they have witnesses who would say that when the gun went off they were not on the sidewalk, but on the grass. That's why the SA brought charges - they don't buy Zimmerman's story.

songline
04-13-2012, 04:45 PM
The other thing I keep wondering about is if there is a witness, or witnesses that we haven't heard from in the news. Someone who kept their counsel and talked only to investigators.
They have said that there is one, they have said there is information se do not have.
I do not know....But I am eager to know the truth.
not the truth that the public painted ;)
The truth that was investigated by the FBI

LinasK
04-13-2012, 04:47 PM
No, that is not how it works. Robbing a bank is illegal. Thus a person can not rob a bank and claim SYG because they were in a process of doing something illegal. Being in a gated community is legal regardless of what part of the community Zimmerman was at.
But...he had no business patrolling, especially not with a loaded weapon because Neighborhood Watch does not patrol, and is not supposed to be armed!

LinasK
04-13-2012, 04:48 PM
I respectfully disagree.....strongly.
I read today in an article that some states are calling the SYG Law, "shoot first, ask questions later".

annalia
04-13-2012, 04:55 PM
:doh:

oh gosh. thanks. that's what I get for not watchin' it on the tube.

next questions:

1) Can the next judge disagree that there's probable cause prior to the bond hearing & just vacate the charges?

2) Won't MOM assert self-defense at the bond hearing & motion for dismissal before any pleading or bond request?

TIA. I can't watch the talking heads, so hoping someone covered these points...

BBM

I think a judge can do that, the way I heard it, (someone correct me if this is wrong), a judge can grant him immunity from prosecution based on SYG. It's not yet a foregone conclusion that this will go to trial.

I don't know if the defense can claim self defense at the bond hearing and have the charges dismissed.

JMHO

JeannaT
04-13-2012, 04:55 PM
That's exactly how the law was meant to be interpreted. It is supposed to protect you if you're in your home, car, or business and can't get away.

Out in the open when you are the one following someone? Not really what they had in mind, and in fact if you click the link to the Gun Licensing page in my sig, it explicitly states that you can't wave a gun around at someone while making threats, you can't shoot someone because they said something you don't like, and you have to be in serious danger of your life or protecting someone else from harm.

George tried to say that he was scared of Trayvon who was slamming his head into the sidewalk, but the problem is they have witnesses who would say that when the gun went off they were not on the sidewalk, but on the grass. That's why the SA brought charges - they don't buy Zimmerman's story.

That's not true. You have no duty, under the SYG, to attempt to flee. That's why it's called Stand Your Ground. Any place you can legally be, and are not committing a crime, you have the right to Stand Your Ground and shoot to kill if someone is threatening you with serious bodily injuries or death.

There's no clause that you have an obligation to "get away" if you can.

frenchvixen
04-13-2012, 04:58 PM
But...he had no business patrolling, especially not with a loaded weapon because Neighborhood Watch does not patrol, and is not supposed to be armed!

See, GZ has no business having a gun and patrolling and this is why his brother has been adamant that GZ was not on watch that night. So, if he wasn't on watch that night what was he doing in that part of town? He cannot stand his ground where he is not supposed to be especially if he was warned not to do so.

I think once GZ's attorneys review everything they will advise him to take a plea b/c MOM stated last night that GZ will have to take the stand if he is going to use self defense. His story will not be believable when he is asked how did he get from his car to TM if he was not following him or how did TM's body end up steps away from his dad's place if GZ was in his car?

momshrink
04-13-2012, 04:59 PM
IMO the prosecutor has something ,either a witness or evidence the we haven't heard about to come up with second degree murder.

I think the SA has both evidence and witnesses we have not heard about. While I am disappointed that we will not get all of the doc dumps with records sealed, I think the integrity if the case will be preserved and justice will be served.
JMO

Emma Peel
04-13-2012, 05:00 PM
Gotta watch for articles on FL precedent - previous cases and how they "interpreted" the SYG law in situations extending extend beyond your home, your vehicle, your office, etc. - where you can't get away from a deadly threat...

And, and precedent on what's considered a reasonable standard for "feeling life-threatened"?

I mean - how do you judge that if there's no witness? It's always in the mind of the person who feels threatened.

:no:


LOL. Maybe I'll start sending e-mails of my questions to NeJame via CNN. :D Was happy he's signed on there. That's pretty cool beans. Hope they don't make him do NG too often. :crazy:

frenchvixen
04-13-2012, 05:02 PM
That's not true. You have no duty, under the SYG, to attempt to flee. That's why it's called Stand Your Ground. Any place you can legally be, and are not committing a crime, you have the right to Stand Your Ground and shoot to kill if someone is threatening you with serious bodily injuries or death.

There's no clause that you have an obligation to "get away" if you can.

I have to read SYG in its entirety but I doubt the spirit of this law means that you can follow a minor, accost him and then shoot him. I seriously doubt this.

annalia
04-13-2012, 05:02 PM
There was some discussion in one of these threads about who has the burden in a self defense case.

Alan Derschowitz was on one of the shows last night and said that the burden shifts to the defense. I can't recall if he specifically said SYG or just self defense.

I don't have a link so I guess TIFWIW, I just thought it was interesting.

JMHO

frenchvixen
04-13-2012, 05:03 PM
Gotta watch for articles on FL precedent - previous cases and how they "interpreted" the SYG law in situations extending extend beyond your home, your vehicle, your office, etc. - where you can't get away from a deadly threat...

And, and precedent on what's considered a reasonable standard for "feeling life-threatened"?

I mean - how do you judge that if there's no witness? It's always in the mind of the person who feels threatened.

:no:

Is there FL precedent on disobeying a 911 operator? This would be most helpful in determining if GZ has the "legal" right to be where he was.

songline
04-13-2012, 05:11 PM
Some legal experts are interpreting the law in the manner Hornsby states. Some are not. I have a feeling this law will be subject to judicial clarification at some point in the future, possibly via this case. If you are correct, then Zimmerman will likely walk.


I pray that because of this case that we will get refined, clarified. Fixed, adjusted, whatever you want to call it.

But it cannot be a license for mad men.

momshrink
04-13-2012, 05:16 PM
is it weird of me to be grateful that if GZ had to ask a lawyer related to the anthony fiasco to represent, that he chose MN over JB? :waitasec:

And you just know JB would love to have had this case.:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

Emma Peel
04-13-2012, 05:17 PM
There was some discussion in one of these threads about who has the burden in a self defense case.

Alan Derschowitz was on one of the shows last night and said that the burden shifts to the defense. I can't recall if he specifically said SYG or just self defense.

I don't have a link so I guess TIFWIW, I just thought it was interesting.

JMHO

Here's Dershowitz on this topic - from earlier in the week. Clear as mud. :cow:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/the-rorschach-facts-in-th_b_1418441.html



These "facts" give rise to several possible scenarios of what may actually have occurred on that dark rainy night. Under the Florida self-defense statute, it matters greatly what happened, most especially who "initially provoke[d] the use of force," and who started the physical encounter.

If Zimmerman initially provoked the deadly encounter, then he cannot invoke any "stand your ground" defense. He would then be under a legal obligation to "exhaust ... every reasonable means to escape."

Though this statute is anything but a model of clarity, it does suggest that whoever "provokes" a deadly encounter has a heavy burden of justification in claiming self-defense. But the statute doesn't define "provokes," and that ambiguous word may hold the key to the outcome of this tragic case.

If provocation is limited to a physical assault, and if Zimmerman's account that Martin blindsided him with a punch is believed, then Zimmerman did not provoke the encounter. But if provocation includes following the victim and harassing him, then Zimmerman may well qualify as a provocateur. Moreover, a jury may believe that Zimmerman started the physical confrontation by grabbing Martin. This would almost certainly constitute provocation.

But to complicate matters further, even a provocateur has the legal right to defend himself under Florida law if he can't escape and if he is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm, as Zimmerman claims he was.

JeannaT
04-13-2012, 05:20 PM
I have to read SYG in its entirety but I doubt the spirit of this law means that you can follow a minor, accost him and then shoot him. I seriously doubt this.

It certainly means you can call the cops and keep an eye on someone, and if they assault you and continue to threaten your life/health, you can shoot them.

The problem here is there were no witnesses to the beginning of the physical battle.

Elley Mae
04-13-2012, 05:21 PM
There was some discussion in one of these threads about who has the burden in a self defense case.

Alan Derschowitz was on one of the shows last night and said that the burden shifts to the defense. I can't recall if he specifically said SYG or just self defense.

I don't have a link so I guess TIFWIW, I just thought it was interesting.

JMHO

I am thinking self defense is what will be used. If it is known as we know here that in the position of "night watchman" it is illegal to carry your weapon why would the lawyer use SYG? We know that he was on his way to target from early on so I am thinking that the lawyer will probably stick with the target story. That way their story will not have changed. jmo

songline
04-13-2012, 05:21 PM
In a separate instance (not this case), how would you know that the person who was shot wasn't trying to rob or attack the one with the gun? What if someone actually did get attacked and defended themselves to the point of killing the attacker? You automatically arrest the person still alive?


That is a fair question.
I think they do not always have to arrest JMO
but I do think they always must investigate thoroughly
not in a half hour. ;) that is not investigating at all.

AngelWings444
04-13-2012, 05:22 PM
And you just know JB would love to have had this case.:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

I wonder :waitasec: if JB was on MN's list of attorney's, presented to GZ? :floorlaugh:

songline
04-13-2012, 05:27 PM
See, GZ has no business having a gun and patrolling and this is why his brother has been adamant that GZ was not on watch that night. So, if he wasn't on watch that night what was he doing in that part of town? He cannot stand his ground where he is not supposed to be especially if he was warned not to do so.

I think once GZ's attorneys review everything they will advise him to take a plea b/c MOM stated last night that GZ will have to take the stand if he is going to use self defense. His story will not be believable when he is asked how did he get from his car to TM if he was not following him or how did TM's body end up steps away from his dad's place if GZ was in his car?

Just 2 points:
George lives in that part of town he did not come from another community to this one :nono:
George saw something ---- I know that if you see something you say something.
I once saw a man trying to lift a wallet out of a lady’s bag...
You bet I grabbed his hand and yelled police.
the wallet fell to the floor and he was apprehended.
I sure could have pretended it was not my business.

Elley Mae
04-13-2012, 05:32 PM
http://www.tampabay.com/incoming/whats-next-in-the-zimmerman-case/1224622

Within 15 days, prosecutors must start providing Zimmerman's attorney with "discovery," the first witness statements, police reports, and photos that will be used as evidence against him.

Cher352
04-13-2012, 05:32 PM
With the info about GZ calling Nejame last month to try to retain him, I again question how involved (if they were ever involved) the two folks who ran that circus presser the other day were with the case?

I have heard from everyone else except GZ. How many of these people have really spoke to GZ and how many are just trying to grab their 15 minutes of air time?

For some reason I think Sonner and Uhrig were GZ's father choice but GZ didn't agree. GZ act of calling Nejames and then picking O'Mara makes me believe he did not want a lawyer that was going to inflame people.

My reasoning is based only on what I have seen of them on TV and their websites. Uhrig law firm is strictly a Criminal Defense law firm whereas O'Mara is a Criminal and Family law practice.

My impressions I got from what I seen on tv is that Uhrig is a tough talking lawyer that would pull out all the stops to win no matter what it takes. The all or nothing type that would fight hard but sure to tick a lot of people off.

Whereas, IMO, O'Mara is a soft spoken, low profile lawyer who will probably easily accept a plea bargain to a lesser charge. From what I have seen of him O'Mara would be better to ease the tension in this case.

AGAIN just :moo:

jjenny
04-13-2012, 05:34 PM
I am thinking self defense is what will be used. If it is known as we know here that in the position of "night watchman" it is illegal to carry your weapon why would the lawyer use SYG? We know that he was on his way to target from early on so I am thinking that the lawyer will probably stick with the target story. That way their story will not have changed. jmo

This is just plain wrong. He had a legal right to carry weapon. So it was not illegal for him to carry his weapon.

jjenny
04-13-2012, 05:36 PM
Is there FL precedent on disobeying a 911 operator? This would be most helpful in determining if GZ has the "legal" right to be where he was.

What precedent could there be? It's not illegal to not follow what 911 operator tells you. And in some cases what 911 operator tells someone could be dangerous. I just read about a guy who was told by 911 operator to go back and he was killed when he went back. So blindly following what someone tells you (even if that person is a 911 operator) is not always a good idea.

mikeysmommom
04-13-2012, 05:36 PM
Kind of. Except the guys he shot were trying to mug him. The facts here per the call to police by Zimmerman, what was found on Trayvon's body, the statements by the girlfriend, do not at all indicate Trayvon was a thug looking for trouble. Instead, he was a kid trying to get home in the rain. Big difference to me.

Also, Goetz illegally carried a gun while Zimmerman did not.

But, Zimmerman and Goetz may be similar personalities, IMO and I do understand the comparison.

ETA: I can't be sure about my last statement, in retrospect. Goetz had been assaulted before and I think he was scared, and not merely hunting "bad guys" as a self-appointed cop wanna' be.

Zimmerman had also been assaulted before when he lived in VA.He was around 17 or 18 at the time.

songline
04-13-2012, 05:37 PM
I am thinking self defense is what will be used. If it is known as we know here that in the position of "night watchman" it is illegal to carry your weapon why would the lawyer use SYG? We know that he was on his way to target from early on so I am thinking that the lawyer will probably stick with the target story. That way their story will not have changed. jmo

This is how I understand it correct me if I am wrong.
IF you are silenced to carry. you can carry it 24/7 CONCEALED.
you can take it to work, to the bathroom, in your car, to bed with you wherever.
So being any watchmen, Capitan, day, night, not on duty, on duty...
He can carry it.

BUT ON THAT DAY - AS WE KNOW IT...
George was going to the store, he saw something.
It does not mean he has to go home and get disarmed.
It does not mean he cannot follow.
It does not mean if he is told "we do not need you to do that"
that he is told "DO NOT DO THAT".

Now I want to hear what really happened in those 2 minutes
that we do not know.
Along with other things that we do not know.

But from what I see - GZ was overzealous, not a bad guy
BAD guys do not volunteer to tutor small black children for free,
Or watch the neighborhood for free.

IF GZ was a bad guy he would go somewhere and bully some strangers and shoot them.
Sort of what happend in Tolido recently.

Elley Mae
04-13-2012, 05:38 PM
This is just plain wrong. He had a legal right to carry weapon. So it was not illegal for him to carry his weapon.

What I am saying is as "night watchman" he was not suppose to be armed. As a citizen he does have that right as he was. My point is the lawyer is probably not going to say he was serving as night watchman.

MsCharlieChan
04-13-2012, 05:40 PM
For all the relief among civil rights activists over the arrest, legal experts warned there is a real chance the case could get thrown out before it ever goes to trial because of the "stand your ground" law.

Here's the problem with that...

1. What people are missing is Trayvon was invoking his right to "stand HIS ground."

2. If Trayvon had had a gun on him, it would have been lawful for him to shoot the guy that was following him, who came unreasonably close up on his person.

3. Unfortunately, Trayvon had no gun... But doesn't he still have the right to "stand his ground" with the only weapons that were at his disposal?

4. It is the State's job to ensure that Trayvon's rights are advocated. So, the trial shouldn't be thrown out prematurely. Doing so would be dismissing Trayvon's rights as a U.S. citizen.

Trayvon invoked his "stand your ground" right, albeit unsuccessfully because he didn't have a gun. The judicial system needs to get to the bottom of WHY Trayvon was compelled to act defensively.

Did he feel threatened? Yep, and you would have, too. Let some strange man start stalking behind *you* on a dark, rainy evening. If you can imagine it, you'd probably feel terror.

In Florida, you'd have the right to shoot and kill him. If you didn't have a gun, you should have a right to at least ask "Do you have a problem?" or "Why are you following me?"

If the follower had stayed in his car as they'd been advised to do, Trayvon wouldn't have needed to use his "stand your ground" right (unsuccessfully).

grammieto5
04-13-2012, 05:41 PM
That's not true. You have no duty, under the SYG, to attempt to flee. That's why it's called Stand Your Ground. Any place you can legally be, and are not committing a crime, you have the right to Stand Your Ground and shoot to kill if someone is threatening you with serious bodily injuries or death.

There's no clause that you have an obligation to "get away" if you can.

Until this case I had never heard of this Stand Your Ground law. Retreat to the Wall meant if I understand it right, before you shoot you must retreat as far as you can. Now it means you do not have to retreat, you can just shoot and tell the police you believed you were in fear for your life. Of course if it were a home invasion it would be different, you would be in fear for your life, there would be no place for you to go. But in an open space, with only two people there, one dead, the shooter has the right under the SYG law to kill and then just tell the police he was in fear for his life, that's it, no questions, no evidence taken, just the shooter's word???? This law is very confusing. GZ was in basically an open field, he could have ran behind any one of those buildings if he was afraid, but he knew he didn't have to.

JeannaT
04-13-2012, 05:42 PM
What I am saying is as "night watchman" he was not suppose to be armed. As a citizen he does have that right as he was. My point is the lawyer is probably not going to say he was serving as night watchman.

Hmm. Even if he was patrolling the grounds as a "Crime Watch Captain" -which he wasn't, he'd still have a legal right to carry his gun.

The crime watch program probably doesn't approve, but that doesn't make it illegal.