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imamaze
04-14-2012, 11:50 AM
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Velouria
04-14-2012, 11:58 AM
Bringing over from previous thread:


I didn't see anyone blaming her for his death. And I think that maybe the emotions are running so high that people are jumping to unfair conclusions about what others are referring to or implying, imo.

I think it may come into question in court, because the way the testimony is right now, it IMPLIES that the last thing she heard was her boyfriend being jumped by a racist killer. So it is going to be asked, inevitably,what did you do in response ?

It is kind of a catch 22, because the prosecution is going to want it to be crystal clear that she heard the last moment of her boyfriends life. They need that to be communicated to the jury to dispel the notion of self defense on GZ's part. But if they make that crystal clear, that she could tell he was jumped by the stranger, then that nagging question will arise. Who did you call? Did you tell anyone?

I don't think it is out of line to look at what the defense is going to do when the trial happens.

BBM

Yes, and that goes both ways. There's certainly no monopoly on objectivity on either side of this case.

If you haven't seen this girl repeatedly bashed, then I'm afraid you haven't been reading Trayvon's threads long enough.

I think it's quite possible that she may have been afraid to call the police due to a cultural belief that many blacks seem to share - that LE is not to be automatically trusted. But then I don't really know exactly when or whom she told. None of us do. Nevertheless I see her as a victim.

JeannaT
04-14-2012, 12:02 PM
Bringing over from previous thread:



BBM

Yes, and that goes both ways. There's certainly no monopoly on objectivity on either side of this case.

If you haven't seen this girl repeatedly bashed, then I'm afraid you haven't been reading Trayvon's threads long enough.

I think it's quite possible that she may have been afraid to call the police due to a cultural belief that many blacks seem to share - that LE is not to be automatically trusted. But then I don't really know exactly when or whom she told. None of us do. Nevertheless I see her as a victim.

I personally have never seen her bashed.

I've seen a lot of people surprised - as in, how does this fit into the puzzle - when she did nothing after hearing that exchange and then the phone went dead permanently.

It's a curiousity, is all. Considering how hysterical girls at that age can be, and how melodramatic and very attached they often are - I feel like there's a piece of this puzzle missing when I hear she did nothing.

Adrienne37
04-14-2012, 12:03 PM
Trayvon Martin’s father says he warned son..


Years before the killing of Trayvon Martin grabbed the nation’s attention, the teen’s father warned him that his race could make him a target of violence.

The advice Tracy Martin gave his black son, that people veiled by racism and prejudices might see him as suspicious or violent, is a common and continuous warning in many black families, parents and experts say. In the aftermath of Trayvon’s death, more families are having “the talk,” teaching sons to be aware of their race, avoid confrontations with authority figures, and to remain calm in situations even if their rights are violated.

“I’ve always let him know we as African Americans get stereotyped,” Tracy Martin, Trayvon’s father told USA TODAY three weeks after his son’s death. “I told him that society is cruel.”

http://tucsoncitizen.com/usa-today-n...he-warned-son/

Velouria
04-14-2012, 12:05 PM
I personally have never seen her bashed.

I've seen a lot of people surprised - as in, how does this fit into the puzzle - when she did nothing after hearing that exchange and then the phone went dead permanently.

It's a curiousity, is all. Considering how hysterical girls at that age can be, and how melodramatic and very attached they often are - I feel like there's a piece of this puzzle missing when I hear she did nothing.


I do believe you don't think she has been bashed here.

Again, we don't know for a fact whom she told, or when she told them.

JBean
04-14-2012, 12:06 PM
Here is some helpful information regarding links

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tezi
04-14-2012, 12:19 PM
Since the police did not get to her till later on.
since Mr. Martin got to her first. I have a list of suspisions.
But how can we know.

BBM: Seriously, now the girlfriend has done something wrong by coming forward? It's not her fault LE did NOT contact her, it's LE's fault.

We have stooped to a new level, bashing the victim's family and friends...

JMO, IMO, :moo: , and all other disclaimers...

SuziQ
04-14-2012, 12:19 PM
From the last thread Jeanna T

As I recall, Trayvon's phone was locked. I don't know how it became locked, that'a bit of a mystery.

I don't see how they could have possibly known his identity if he wasn't carrying any ID - and his phone was locked.

I do still wonder about why the girl had no way to reach anyone who should be notified. I would think that would be absolutely terrifying to hear that call, and I can't believe she doesn't have SOME way to know who this young man's family was.

edited to add: I am really curious now about how his phone would have gotten locked.

SPD, a professional LE agency, couldn't even be bothered to put two and two together that Trayvon lived where he died. It was beyond them to canvas the condos and knock on doors, which is standard operating procedure in a homicide. In fact LE not only did not knock on any doors they were out of there so quick Trayvon's parents never saw any evidence of a crime by the time they got home from dinner.

And yet, we want people a couple of hundreds of miles away to be able to do a job that LE couldn't do?

JeannaT
04-14-2012, 12:22 PM
I do believe you don't think she has been bashed here.

Again, we don't know for a fact whom she told, or when she told them.

We know she didn't make any contact with his mother or brother (mother's son) or that would have been part of the story. The story begins with an 8 am call from Tracey Martin to LE to report him missing.

Kids circle and keep each other's secrets. That's all I can come up with to think why she wouldn't have alerted his mother. He was already in significant trouble, and running to the family would very likely cause them to be aware of yet another piece of trouble Trayvon was in.

Knowing kids, and how they huddle and don't tattle, all I can think is she thought he was probably fine and telling on him would reveal something to his parents he didn't want revealed.

Can anyone else think of another reason she would keep this mum?

SuziQ
04-14-2012, 12:24 PM
I personally have never seen her bashed.

I've seen a lot of people surprised - as in, how does this fit into the puzzle - when she did nothing after hearing that exchange and then the phone went dead permanently.

It's a curiousity, is all. Considering how hysterical girls at that age can be, and how melodramatic and very attached they often are - I feel like there's a piece of this puzzle missing when I hear she did nothing.

And I'm wondering what this has to do with anything since it would not have changed the outcome of Trayvon ending up dead. The girl has no superpowers.

SuziQ
04-14-2012, 12:27 PM
We know she didn't make any contact with his mother or brother (mother's son) or that would have been part of the story. The story begins with an 8 am call from Tracey Martin to LE to report him missing.

Kids circle and keep each other's secrets. That's all I can come up with to think why she wouldn't have alerted his mother. He was already in significant trouble, and running to the family would very likely cause them to be aware of yet another piece of trouble Trayvon was in.

Knowing kids, and how they huddle and don't tattle, all I can think is she thought he was probably fine and telling on him would reveal something to his parents he didn't want revealed.

Can anyone else think of another reason she would keep this mum?

AFAIK, we don't know she kept anything mum. Not sure how it would change things even if she did. The probable cause statement is clear that Trayvon was doing nothing wrong.

tehcloser
04-14-2012, 12:29 PM
Jenna,


Phone being "locked" = password protected. No big mystery there.

JeannaT
04-14-2012, 12:30 PM
And I'm wondering what this has to do with anything since it would not have changed the outcome of Trayvon ending up dead. The girl has no superpowers.

No, she couldn't have affected the outcome.

But I believe this paints kind of a different picture of what actually was going on - what Trayvon was telling her, and the brief conversation she overheard.

As she tells the story, any girlfriend would have been in a terror panic after hearing that. The fact that she didn't react like a girl terrified for the safety of her boyfriend colors my perception of what actually took place, and what actually she overheard.

raeann
04-14-2012, 12:33 PM
We know she didn't make any contact with his mother or brother (mother's son) or that would have been part of the story. The story begins with an 8 am call from Tracey Martin to LE to report him missing.

Kids circle and keep each other's secrets. That's all I can come up with to think why she wouldn't have alerted his mother. He was already in significant trouble, and running to the family would very likely cause them to be aware of yet another piece of trouble Trayvon was in.

Knowing kids, and how they huddle and don't tattle, all I can think is she thought he was probably fine and telling on him would reveal something to his parents he didn't want revealed.

Can anyone else think of another reason she would keep this mum?

There is no reason at all to assume that she did "keep it mum". For all we know she could have told her parents, her friends, Trayvon's friends, and anyone else. There was NOTHING that would have changed! He was killed within seconds of the call being dropped! She probably called and texted and called again and again. There is again, NOTHING, that she could have done that would have changed anything at all. It is NOT THE JOB of a 15 year old girl to locate him! It was the job of SANFORD police to identify him and notify his family. It was the job of SANFORD police to find the phone and request the records and contact anyone with incoming or outgoing calls in the time frame of interest. They didn't do their job, but a 15 year old girl is to be blamed for not doing it FOR THEM???

jmo

JeannaT
04-14-2012, 12:33 PM
Jenna,


Phone being "locked" = password protected. No big mystery there.

Well it's obviously a mystery to me.

So when you are on the phone, if you become disconnected because the phone drops, it locks itself and the phone owner would have to get back in with a password to call the person back? We don't own any phones that are password protected, so I don't know.

I thought you had to lock a phone. I know the phones in my house, you pick them up and you can get in to them with no password. But people can lock them, if they chose, like if you don't want to have a pocket call or something.

I use an old rickety phone and don't play around with my family's better newer iphones.

rossva
04-14-2012, 12:36 PM
BBM But, by making this statement, are you not assuming the GF is black?



Bringing over from previous thread:



BBM

Yes, and that goes both ways. There's certainly no monopoly on objectivity on either side of this case.

If you haven't seen this girl repeatedly bashed, then I'm afraid you haven't been reading Trayvon's threads long enough.

I think it's quite possible that she may have been afraid to call the police due to a cultural belief that many blacks seem to share - that LE is not to be automatically trusted. But then I don't really know exactly when or whom she told. None of us do. Nevertheless I see her as a victim.

tehcloser
04-14-2012, 12:36 PM
Well it's obviously a mystery to me.

So when you are on the phone, if you become disconnected because the phone drops, it locks itself and the phone owner would have to get back in with a password? We don't own any phones that are password protected, so I don't know.

I thought you had to lock a phone. I know the phones in my house, you pick them up and you can get in to them with no password. But people can lock them, if they chose, like if you don't want to have a pocket call or something.

I use an old rickety phone and don't play around with my family's better newer iphones.

Yep that's what happens. After a few seconds of being idle, the phone locks itself.

Intexas
04-14-2012, 12:36 PM
It's seems whoever serves on the jury will be hearing a lot about phones, and listening to recordings.

According to prosecutors Zimmerman didn't utter a racial slur. I'm not sure what to make of that, or if the FBI is still investigating the civil rights allegations of the case. The last article I've seen on the Feds investigation was back in March.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/04/zimmerman_did_not_use_racial_s.html

AND

It sounds like she's relying on the mother's testimony that it's Martin and not Zimmerman yelling for help, but voice matching software has been used in other cases and that seems like better evidence to present to the jury.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/01/10963191-trayvon-martin-case-911-call-screams-not-george-zimmermans-2-experts-say

Not sure where she's going with case. :fence:

LolaMoon08
04-14-2012, 12:36 PM
Senior Prom Day for my 17-year-old niece!! I'm so excited!!

Sending extra prayers to Trayvon's parents today as I know they will never get to experience these wonderful moments in Trayvon's life and I am going to cherish this day because I know how lucky I am to have this wonderful young woman in my life (and I actually LOVE her boyfriend).

gxm
04-14-2012, 12:38 PM
Jenna,


Phone being "locked" = password protected. No big mystery there.

Good point. TM could have used a setting that "locked" the phone after it had not been in use for X number of minutes.

octobermoon
04-14-2012, 12:39 PM
We know she didn't make any contact with his mother or brother (mother's son) or that would have been part of the story. The story begins with an 8 am call from Tracey Martin to LE to report him missing.

Kids circle and keep each other's secrets. That's all I can come up with to think why she wouldn't have alerted his mother. He was already in significant trouble, and running to the family would very likely cause them to be aware of yet another piece of trouble Trayvon was in.

Knowing kids, and how they huddle and don't tattle, all I can think is she thought he was probably fine and telling on him would reveal something to his parents he didn't want revealed.

Can anyone else think of another reason she would keep this mum?

Keep what mum from who/whom? We have no idea if she knew Trayvon's family's phone #s. This is 2012, almost all teens and most adults have cells. I only know senior citizens who still have land lines. Trayvon was miles away walking. Did she know his exact location when the phone went dead? Could she even imagine that her boyfriend was shot dead? I am over twice her age and don't know anyone personally who was killed by a bullet. How long had they been sweet on each other. Had she been to his home? Would she even know where he lived with his mother? Why on earth would you think she was keeping secrets? We don't know yet. We really don't know. She is a minor. A child caught up in nightmare that I hope someday won't haunt her dreams. I for one will give her the benefit of the doubt. JMO IMO MOO

tehcloser
04-14-2012, 12:40 PM
Good point. TM could have used a setting that "locked" the phone after it had not been in use for X number of minutes.

TM would not have had to "use" it, it's automatic.

JeannaT
04-14-2012, 12:40 PM
Yep that's what happens. After a few seconds of being idle, the phone locks itself.

So, this follow up is really unrelated but I'm curious.

If you have a password protected phone, and you lose it, you're SOL? No one can open it to look through your contacts, or answer it if it rings?

(Phones with GPS on them could be found again, I guess, but without GPS, you would never have your phone returned).

gxm
04-14-2012, 12:41 PM
Is she white? Asian? Latina?

The only photo of her that I've seen had her face blurred out. The one where she is standing next to TM. She has a dark complexion, from what I can tell, I would guess she is either AA or Latina, but I could be wrong.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

LynnM
04-14-2012, 12:42 PM
No, she couldn't have affected the outcome.

But I believe this paints kind of a different picture of what actually was going on - what Trayvon was telling her, and the brief conversation she overheard.

As she tells the story, any girlfriend would have been in a terror panic after hearing that. The fact that she didn't react like a girl terrified for the safety of her boyfriend colors my perception of what actually took place, and what actually she overheard.

Well let's say they had a normal conversation, she heard nothing to alarm her, and then they hung up. The call lasted from 7:12 - 7:16. 911 calls started coming in about 15 seconds later reporting shouting. The shot was heard at 7:16:41 and the police arrived at 7:17 and Trayvon was dead. That's such a tiny window of time for an unarmed teen to do something that made Zimmerman fear for his life and shoot Trayvon. Zimmerman's story just doesn't make any sense to me.

gxm
04-14-2012, 12:43 PM
TM would not have had to "use" it, it's automatic.

Not on my phone. I would have to create it in the settings. I never password protect my phone because I'm lousy at remembering passwords. Yes, it will "lock," but the lock can be opened with a finger swipe, no password needed.

tehcloser
04-14-2012, 12:43 PM
So, this follow up is really unrelated but I'm curious.

If you have a password protected phone, and you lose it, you're SOL? No one can open it to look through your contacts, or answer it if it rings?

(Phones with GPS on them could be found again, I guess, but without GPS, you would never have your phone returned).

Pretty much......but iphones and droids get stolen with a quickness. That's why most of them are password protected.

tehcloser
04-14-2012, 12:45 PM
Not on my phone. I would have to create it in the settings. I never password protect my phone because I'm lousy at remembering passwords. Yes, it will "lock," but the lock can be opened with a finger swipe, no password needed.

That's the way mine is.....but if you do have it password protected, it's on all the time, it's not something you do after every phone call.

thefragile7393
04-14-2012, 12:46 PM
And I'm wondering what this has to do with anything since it would not have changed the outcome of Trayvon ending up dead. The girl has no superpowers.

I think that her story should be checked out like anyone else's...that is a given. There is a fine line, however, between investigating and out and out disrespect. The hard-nosed approach to investigating does not work for every situation. I have seen ugly and rude things posted about her, about TM, and his family-things that have not proven to be true as of yet. The mods have done a great job on keeping things flowing and keeping free thought expressed. They have been quick to quash much of the ugly stuff. We have to remember that yes, this is a board about crime and it is victim centered however not every person who comes here has the same mentality. The ignore button is beautiful for the few unreasonable ones lol.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

gxm
04-14-2012, 12:48 PM
Well let's say they had a normal conversation, she heard nothing to alarm her, and then they hung up. The call lasted from 7:12 - 7:16. 911 calls started coming in about 15 seconds later reporting shouting. The shot was heard at 7:16:41 and the police arrived at 7:17 and Trayvon was dead. That's such a tiny window of time for an unarmed teen to do something that made Zimmerman fear for his life and shoot Trayvon. Zimmerman's story just doesn't make any sense to me.

I keep wondering if the time on the individual phones was not synced and we are working with an inaccurate timeline. I can't imagine that one could hear shouts so alarming that one decides to call 911 within 15 seconds. I would imagine it takes longer than 15 seconds to find one's phone and dial through, and that doesn't even account for going to the window, or door, to see if the commotion warrants a 911 call.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

LolaMoon08
04-14-2012, 12:48 PM
Keep what mum from who/whom? We have no idea if she knew Trayvon's family's phone #s. This is 2012, almost all teens and most adults have cells. I only know senior citizens who still have land lines. Trayvon was miles away walking. Did she know his exact location when the phone went dead? Could she even imagine that her boyfriend was shot dead? I am over twice her age and don't know anyone personally who was killed by a bullet. How long had they been sweet on each other. Had she been to his home? Would she even know where he lived with his mother? Why on earth would you think she was keeping secrets? We don't know yet. We really don't know. She is a minor. A child caught up in nightmare that I hope someday won't haunt her dreams. I for one will give her the benefit of the doubt. JMO IMO MOO

I personally think she was too young to have an actual "relationship." I'm pretty sure this was only a school/phone relationship.

It's crazy because my niece's relationship started this exact same way. She was only 15-years-old when she started a relationship with her then 17-year-old boyfriend. She was not allowed to go on dates with him until she turned 16-years-old. He was allowed to come to family things (birthday parties, etc...), but the rest of it was a school/phone relationship. They are still together! He will be taking her to her Senior Prom tonight!

I think it depended on how far away she lived from Trayvon too? With school busing, she could live in a completely different part of the city as Trayvon did? I don't think Trayvon had a car to go and take her out? I also think it depends on the girls mother? Did she know Trayvon or Trayon's parents? It may not have even been that serious to have them meet each other?

I don't know? We'll have to see?

gxm
04-14-2012, 12:49 PM
So, this follow up is really unrelated but I'm curious.

If you have a password protected phone, and you lose it, you're SOL? No one can open it to look through your contacts, or answer it if it rings?

(Phones with GPS on them could be found again, I guess, but without GPS, you would never have your phone returned).

Pretty much. It's why I never password protect my phone. Which leaves me SOL if it's ever lost or stolen.

MsCharlieChan
04-14-2012, 12:49 PM
If you haven't seen this girl repeatedly bashed, then I'm afraid you haven't been reading Trayvon's threads long enough.

I think it's quite possible that she may have been afraid to call the police due to a cultural belief that many blacks seem to share - that LE is not to be automatically trusted.

I've been planning to respond explaining the same thing... The many reasons the girlfriend may not have acted as quickly as naysayers think she should have...

1. Many blacks view LE vastly differently from whites. In cities across America, LE is often slow to respond. Worse, there are many issues with police brutality against blacks. So there is deep mistrust and belief that LE probably won't be helpful if you're black and call.

Indeed, the story goes... The girl & mom *did* call the cops and were blown off or whatever. Proof of the perceived problem.

2. There is also the possibility that she feared retribution, harm to herself or family. Many people are afraid to "tell on" someone, fearing they'll be tracked down and harmed. TM's girlfriend didn't know who was hunting him down, or why. For all she knows, it could have been a gang member after TM for some reason. "Snitching" on these kinds of kids can get you shot.

3. If I'm not mistaken, the girlfriend lives in Miami -- but TM was out of town, in Orlando area. I believe this is about a 6 hrs. drive away from the girl's home. Not that she's even old enough to have a driver's license.

4. I can see her worried and asking her mom to help her -- and mom possibly blowing it off initially. Mom might think the boyfriend is just goofing off somewhere or with another girl, that her daughter is over-reacting. Be patient, he'll call...

I don't know the exact timeline and circumstances behind when the girl / mom called LE. But I do know that many (MOST?!) blacks are hesitant to get LE involved.

Actually, make that AFRAID to get LE involved...

Sticking your nose in somebody else's crime gets people killed every day. They call it the "No Snitching" code. This girl had no idea who was after her boyfriend, so she had to think twice before calling LE.

Really, it was brave of her to call, given what I know about the mindset.

raeann
04-14-2012, 12:49 PM
In this girls situation, here are a few of the things a reasonable person would believe about the phone long before they would assume an armed vigilante shot and killed the person they were talking to..

*the phone dropped on the ground and broke
*the phone got too wet in the rain and stopped working
*that Trayvon was busy explaining to the person who accosted him where his father lived and why he was there
*that Trayvon made it home and was telling his father about the weirdo that accosted him and that the father was dealing with the problem
*that she should leave texts and a message and that he would call her back as soon as he could--even from another phone if his was not working

jmo, moo, etc.

tehcloser
04-14-2012, 12:52 PM
My almost 13 yo grandson has his phone password protected...he texts his little "girlfriend" and he doesn't want his younger brother or sister (or NANA) reading them....... :floorlaugh: I promise at 17 TM's would be protected for much the same reason.

Elley Mae
04-14-2012, 12:54 PM
I've been planning to respond explaining the same thing... The many reasons the girlfriend may not have acted as quickly as naysayers think she should have...

1. Many blacks view LE vastly differently from whites. In cities across America, LE is often slow to respond. Worse, there are many issues with police brutality against blacks. So there is deep mistrust and belief that LE probably won't be helpful if you're black and call.

Indeed, the story goes... The girl & mom *did* call the cops and were blown off or whatever. Proof of the perceived problem.

2. There is also the possibility that she feared retribution, harm to herself or family. Many people are afraid to "tell on" someone, fearing they'll be tracked down and harmed. TM's girlfriend didn't know who was hunting him down, or why. For all she knows, it could have been a gang member after TM for some reason. "Snitching" on these kinds of kids can get you shot.

3. If I'm not mistaken, the girlfriend lives in Miami -- but TM was out of town, in Orlando area. I believe this is about a 6 hrs. drive away from the girl's home. Not that she's even old enough to have a driver's license.

4. I can see her worried and asking her mom to help her -- and mom possibly blowing it off initially. Mom might think the boyfriend is just goofing off somewhere or with another girl, that her daughter is over-reacting. Be patient, he'll call...

I don't know the exact timeline and circumstances behind when the girl / mom called LE. But I do know that many (MOST?!) blacks are hesitant to get LE involved.

Actually, make that AFRAID to get LE involved...

Sticking your nose in somebody else's crime gets people killed every day. They call it the "No Snitching" code. This girl had no idea who was after her boyfriend, so she had to think twice before calling LE.

Really, it was brave of her to call, given what I know about the mindset.

Who are they?

LolaMoon08
04-14-2012, 12:54 PM
My almost 13 yo grandson has his phone password protected...he texts his little "girlfriend" and he doesn't want his younger brother or sister (or NANA) reading them....... :floorlaugh: I promise at 17 TM's would be protected for much the same reason.

Yup! They want their privacy! It's really important at the age.

LolaMoon08
04-14-2012, 12:55 PM
Who are they?

Kids... mostly black kids.

JBean
04-14-2012, 12:56 PM
Pretty much......but iphones and droids get stolen with a quickness. That's why most of them are password protected.I concur.
mine is protected with a pattern of dots and only I know the pattern. It locks automagically after a few minutes of non use. So, my phone would be found locked and no one would be able to use it.

Elley Mae
04-14-2012, 12:58 PM
My almost 13 yo grandson has his phone password protected...he texts his little "girlfriend" and he doesn't want his younger brother or sister (or NANA) reading them....... :floorlaugh: I promise at 17 TM's would be protected for much the same reason.

We gave daughter a phone for her 16th B-day, and if she had even thought about locking it, in the trash it would have went. As long as we paid the bill it was our phone for her to use. She had the phone for 10 years before she took over the bill. that's just us.

LolaMoon08
04-14-2012, 01:00 PM
I don't have a cell phone so I don't know all these tricks. The last cell phone I had is somewhere on Alligator Alley. I feel if you know me enough to want to get a hold of me, you know my home number, my email, and my facebook. Cell phones drive me crazy.

My niece does have a cell phone and I'm pretty sure it is well protected with passwords and gadgets.

octobermoon
04-14-2012, 01:00 PM
Yup! They want their privacy! It's really important at the age.

My parents could always find me in my teen years by following the phone cord from the wall to where I was hiding (closet/bathroom, etc) talking on the phone so my brother wouldn't eavesdrop. LOL Gosh I am old. :)

tehcloser
04-14-2012, 01:01 PM
We gave daughter a phone for her 16th B-day, and if she had even thought about locking it, in the trash it would have went. As long as we paid the bill it was our phone for her to use. She had the phone for 10 years before she took over the bill. that's just us.

Alot of people are that way.....our family believes trust is given until you give us a reason to not trust. Kids want and need a certain amount of privacy, nothing wrong with it.

JeannaT
04-14-2012, 01:01 PM
We gave daughter a phone for her 16th B-day, and if she had even thought about locking it, in the trash it would have went. As long as we paid the bill it was our phone for her to use. She had the phone for 10 years before she took over the bill. that's just us.

To be fair, Tracy Martin did know his son's password.

MsCharlieChan
04-14-2012, 01:03 PM
Who are they?

"They" would be black inner-city youths.

But I believe it's a "street code of silence" that mimics the mob culture. The mob hates what they call a "rat" -- as in "ratting" on someone.

Telling the authorities is a no-no and can put you and your family in danger in different cultures.

octobermoon
04-14-2012, 01:04 PM
O/T be safe everyone the weather is pretty bad in tornado alley.

LolaMoon08
04-14-2012, 01:06 PM
We gave daughter a phone for her 16th B-day, and if she had even thought about locking it, in the trash it would have went. As long as we paid the bill it was our phone for her to use. She had the phone for 10 years before she took over the bill. that's just us.

I understand that. Everyone has different ways of dealing with their teens, but some parents, like my sister and bro-in-law, believe that privacy is important to young girls. My niece has also had a job and has been paying for her own phones for almost two years and her parents have still confiscated her phone. :floorlaugh: But they give her her privacy too. It's important for young people to have a sense of independence and responsibility when they get to a certain age. Trust is really important.

MOO

LynnM
04-14-2012, 01:09 PM
I keep wondering if the time on the individual phones was not synced and we are working with an inaccurate timeline. I can't imagine that one could hear shouts so alarming that one decides to call 911 within 15 seconds. I would imagine it takes longer than 15 seconds to find one's phone and dial through, and that doesn't even account for going to the window, or door, to see if the commotion warrants a 911 call.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

I agree! The timing of the cell phone call that has been reported is based on the bill that came to Trayvon's father so it may be off by as much as 30 seconds if the company rounds up. It was a four minute call that came in at 7:12 but if there's a rounding up then it could have ended at 7:15:30. The cell phone company will have actual times and the prosecutor will have those. Either way, the timeline is awfully tight for this confrontation and shooting.

jjenny
04-14-2012, 01:10 PM
...

Really, it was brave of her to call, given what I know about the mindset.

As far as I can tell, it was Martin's family lawyer that contacted her after getting the phone records and seeing that she was on the phone is Trayvon during the time of interest. I am not aware that she called anyone after the incident?

Cher352
04-14-2012, 01:13 PM
I don't think discussing the GF's actions concerning the phone calls is bashing her at all. I think everything concerning that call will be very big part of the case when it goes to trial.

Who, what and when she told others about call could play into reasonable doubt. Just because the call matchs up with the time line doesn't prove what was being discussed.

Not that I think she is lying but I could see a defense questioning it. I also think a reasonable jury member is going to want to be assured that what she said was on that call was the truth and not what someone suggested she say after details of the incident became public.

So hopefully she told someone early on the details of the call before all the media hype started.

raeann
04-14-2012, 01:13 PM
O/T be safe everyone the weather is pretty bad in tornado alley.

:seeya:

umm yeah....right here at "ground zero".....storm chasers and NWS trucks out and about around town!!!

LolaMoon08
04-14-2012, 01:15 PM
:seeya:

umm yeah....right here at "ground zero".....storm chasers and NWS trucks out and about around town!!!

Be safe!! :please:

I've always wanted to go storm chasing! :crazy:

Adrienne37
04-14-2012, 01:17 PM
:seeya:

umm yeah....right here at "ground zero".....storm chasers and NWS trucks out and about around town!!!

Be safe raeann!!

octobermoon
04-14-2012, 01:20 PM
:seeya:

umm yeah....right here at "ground zero".....storm chasers and NWS trucks out and about around town!!!

Lived in Omaha a couple years. Scariest thing this mountain girl ever saw was the sky turn green. Grab your laptop, if you have one, and sit in the bathtub. LOL ;)

raeann
04-14-2012, 01:22 PM
Be safe raeann!!

LOL...will do, but we are brave here....afternoon plans include taking son to get tux rented for his prom in two weeks, and a quick lunch hopefully before the storms roll in.

I am heartbroken that Trayvon's mom can not do the same thing with her son today!

jmo

AngelWings444
04-14-2012, 01:25 PM
So, this follow up is really unrelated but I'm curious.

If you have a password protected phone, and you lose it, you're SOL? No one can open it to look through your contacts, or answer it if it rings?

(Phones with GPS on them could be found again, I guess, but without GPS, you would never have your phone returned).
My phone is password protected so if anyone tries to use it, they have to know the password. I recently lost my phone, my phone was able to be answered when we called the phone. I thought I was SOL, but the person who found my phone was able to answer it, and gave it back.

LolaMoon08
04-14-2012, 01:26 PM
Lived in Omaha a couple years. Scariest thing this mountain girl ever saw was the sky turn green. Grab your laptop, if you have one, and sit in the bathtub. LOL ;)

This is why I will always stay in Florida! At least with a Hurricane, we get a good warning! The North can keep their blizzards. Tornado Alley can keep their Tornados. Anywhere that has Earthquakes can keep their Earthquakes. I don't like the cold and I don't like not knowing that a tornado or an earthquake could come at any time. I'm a coward like that (even though I do want to go storm chasing).

MsCharlieChan
04-14-2012, 01:27 PM
So hopefully she told someone early on the details of the call before all the media hype started.

Yes, hopefully. If they talked by phone for hours each day, as I've read somewhere, I'm sure she told a few family members and friends well before she knew about TM's death.

I can even imagine a sibling or parent teasing her, asking why she didn't have her cellphone glued to her ear all of a sudden. That would have been a perfect scenario for her to tell someone about the weird thing that happened the last time she spoke to TM.

itsreenw
04-14-2012, 01:27 PM
I don't think discussing the GF's actions concerning the phone calls is bashing her at all. I think everything concerning that call will be very big part of the case when it goes to trial.

Who, what and when she told others about call could play into reasonable doubt. Just because the call matchs up with the time line doesn't prove what was being discussed.

Not that I think she is lying but I could see a defense questioning it. I also think a reasonable jury member is going to want to be assured that what she said was on that call was the truth and not what someone suggested she say after details of the incident became public.

So hopefully she told someone early on the details of the call before all the media hype started. The significant part of her story is that someone was following TM. GZ admitted that to the dispatcher himself.

IIRC, She also stated that TM said he wasn't going to run and that he asked GZ why he was following him. Why would anyone from TM's family or prosecution team suggest she say either of those things?

LolaMoon08
04-14-2012, 01:28 PM
LOL...will do, but we are brave here....afternoon plans include taking son to get tux rented for his prom in two weeks, and a quick lunch hopefully before the storms roll in.

I am heartbroken that Trayvon's mom can not do the same thing with her son today!

jmo

I'm sure you will cherish today with your son and I'm sure he is going to look so handsome all dressed up! My niece's Senior Prom is tonight and I can't wait until she gets here so we can start doing her hair and make-up!

Elley Mae
04-14-2012, 01:31 PM
This is what I think happened.
Gz is on his way to the store. On his way out he sees a suspicious "person" for how long he watched we don't know. He for what ever reason calls it in. During the call TM walks past GZ, He then relays that to dispatch. Then TM takes the sidewalk that will take him to the town homes that are facing the opposite road and share backyards with the town homes where GZ leaves his vehicle. Then GZ takes the same sidewalk and is then asked if he is following him. he says yes, OK we don't need you to do that. Now he says that he will proceed to see the address. OK here is where I am wondering do we know if TM took the backyard way or did he go straight thought to the next street as well. When GZ did go to the street to see the address to give to dispatch where was TM? So then GZ turns around to go back to car. iirc they were "together" for 45 seconds from one 911 call and TM was laying behind the 4th town home up from the sidewalk. Approximately 80 foot up the sidewalk. Two people fighting would be able to move 80 feet fighting, no? Do we know if they were on the ground the whole time? Was this a fight on foot? These are some of the ? I have.

Aedrys
04-14-2012, 01:37 PM
This is why I will always stay in Florida! At least with a Hurricane, we get a good warning! The North can keep their blizzards. Tornado Alley can keep their Tornados. Anywhere that has Earthquakes can keep their Earthquakes. I don't like the cold and I don't like not knowing that a tornado or an earthquake could come at any time. I'm a coward like that (even though I do want to go storm chasing).

I wish I had stayed in Lousiana sometimes. But no, I had to move to the mother of all wacky weather states, Oklahoma. It's been storms and warnings since yesterday!!!! Apparently a tornado was above my house last night, not fully formed and never touched down, but still, above my house and my husband let me sleep through it! Give me a hurricane I can run from anyday, LOL.

Getting back on topic, the thing to remember about TM's girlfriend is that she is a teenager too. They believe they're immortal. I bet it never entered her mind that Trayvon had been killed. And boys that age tend to do stuff to scare the bejeesus out of people all of the time, then laugh and say it's a joke. She was probably so confused about what had happened she didn't know what to do. And being a teenager, probably convinced herself he was okay and she just had to get back in touch with him and talk to him again before really freaking out about it. She's a teenager. They don't think like adults do. They still have mom and dad to run to and help them out, which is what it sounds like she did, ran to the nearest adult. Teenagers aren't expected to be the one to fix a situation themselves. I think we should lay off of the girlfiend. She's been through plenty enough already. I hope she is getting some therapy, poor girl.

LolaMoon08
04-14-2012, 01:42 PM
This is what I think happened.
Gz is on his way to the store. On his way out he sees a suspicious "person" for how long he watched we don't know. He for what ever reason calls it in. During the call TM walks past GZ, He then relays that to dispatch. Then TM takes the sidewalk that will take him to the town homes that are facing the opposite road and share backyards with the town homes where GZ leaves his vehicle. Then GZ takes the same sidewalk and is then asked if he is following him. he says yes, OK we don't need you to do that. Now he says that he will proceed to see the address. OK here is where I am wondering do we know if TM took the backyard way or did he go straight thought to the next street as well. When GZ did go to the street to see the address to give to dispatch where was TM? So then GZ turns around to go back to car. iirc they were "together" for 45 seconds from one 911 call and TM was laying behind the 4th town home up from the sidewalk. Approximately 80 foot up the sidewalk. Two people fighting would be able to move 80 feet fighting, no? Do we know if they were on the ground the whole time? Was this a fight on foot? These are some of the ? I have.

This is why I have a hard time believing George's father's version of events.

He says that George was simply going to go check the address on the next street. He would have had to pass that sidewalk between the buildings and he didn't see Trayvon which, IMO, implies that Trayvon was waiting to ambush George. George makes his way to the other side and jots down the street address and begins walking back to his truck and it is when George gets back to this area between the buildings that Trayvon jumps out and confronts George.

I do not believe that George made his way to the other street. I do not believe he was going to check an address. I do not believe that Trayvon was hiding and waiting to ambush George. I believe George was very intent on finding Trayvon and confronting him. His attitude on the phone call, IMO, shows what his intentions were.

The fight very well could have been when they were both standing up too, but that is not the way Robert Zimmerman Sr. made it sound like? He made it sound like Trayvon jumped out of nowhere, asked "What's your f***ing problem" and George says "nothing" and this is where Trayvon punches George in the face and George goes straight to the ground?

Then we are stuck with Chief Lee's statements that Trayvon just jumped George from behind? So I'm wondering if that is what was written in the original statement?

It's a big mess, but without all the statements from George, we have no idea what he actually said happened that night.

LolaMoon08
04-14-2012, 01:48 PM
I don't care if they want to seal the witnesses statements, but I really think they should release George's written statement and recorded interview the night of the shooting and possibly even the walk-through he did the next day? It would be so much better to have the actual statements George made himself and work off that instead of having to listen to the varying versions based on who is talking to the media that night.

MsCharlieChan
04-14-2012, 01:54 PM
I don't care if they want to seal the witnesses statements, but I really think they should release George's written statement and recorded interview the night of the shooting and possibly even the walk-through he did the next day? It would be so much better to have the actual statements George made himself and work off that instead of having to listen to the varying versions based on who is talking to the media that night.

At what point does Florida typically make all the documents public? Would it be right after the arraignment?

MsCharlieChan
04-14-2012, 02:05 PM
We know she didn't make any contact with his mother or brother (mother's son) or that would have been part of the story. The story begins with an 8 am call from Tracey Martin to LE to report him missing.

Kids circle and keep each other's secrets. That's all I can come up with to think why she wouldn't have alerted his mother. He was already in significant trouble, and running to the family would very likely cause them to be aware of yet another piece of trouble Trayvon was in.

Knowing kids, and how they huddle and don't tattle, all I can think is she thought he was probably fine and telling on him would reveal something to his parents he didn't want revealed.

Can anyone else think of another reason she would keep this mum?

Yes, a couple of pages up, I posted at length about why most inner-city blacks are unusually hesitant (afraid) to contact law enforcement.

Cher352
04-14-2012, 02:10 PM
The significant part of her story is that someone was following TM. GZ admitted that to the dispatcher himself.

IIRC, She also stated that TM said he wasn't going to run and that he asked GZ why he was following him. Why would anyone from TM's family or prosecution team suggest she say either of those things?
Not trying to be mean but the defense could try to say that others influenced her to alter the exact content to keep Trayvon from appearing anything other than harmless.

Now is just example not saying or implying it is true...
But what if when she told him to run he replied not with "No, I am going to walk fast" but with "No, I am going to get his ass".
Someone could have told her not to mention that.

That is why I said in my first post that I hope she told someone the content early on so that the defense would not try to insinuate that she was coached on what to or not to say that was on the call.

octobermoon
04-14-2012, 02:11 PM
For anyone who knows..
Can GZ's lawyer put a cease and desist order or whatever it is called on FT? I ask because he isn't doing GZ any favors with his "you plant corn, you get corn" (wth does that mean?) and his attitude that he is some how on the "team". Then the comments of being sold out by the SP. IYKWIM by my question. TIA

curl_in_progress
04-14-2012, 02:12 PM
For those judging this 16 year old girl and her actions after Trayvon's murder, I want to share a personal story.

I was dating someone a few years ago and one night he called me and told me that he had just killed his ex gf. We spoke for a few minutes and then he ended the call. I was in so much shock that I sat home alone for HOURS in silence. I had no idea what to do. It wasn't until I saw on the news later in the afternoon that he had ultimately killed himself that I managed to call my sister. I could have called the police after my phone call with him ended and I did not. I literally did not know what to do. Maybe if I had called the police they could have found him before he killed himself? I didn't know he was going to kill himself.

I was 29 years old at the time. An adult. I take great offense to those judging this 16 year olds actions when we don't know what she did or did not do after that phone call dropped.

MOO

Cher352
04-14-2012, 02:13 PM
At what point does Florida typically make all the documents public? Would it be right after the arraignment?

I believe it is once the SA turns them over to the defense.

octobermoon
04-14-2012, 02:17 PM
I believe it is once the SA turns them over to the defense.

I am confused, I thought the charging Judge sealed everything? Does the new Judge get to readdress that? Or are they sealed until trial? Sorry for all the questions. :)

BetteDavisEyes
04-14-2012, 02:18 PM
I haven't been able to keep up with new posts but wanted to comment about something on one of the previous threads since GZ's arrest. Some here were questioning why Zimmerman appeared to be rolling his eyes when he appeared in court on Thursday, and it was suggested that this might be a tic or something along these lines.

I noticed the eye movements, as well, but wondered whether or not GZ wore contact lenses. Having worn (hard) lenses from age 12 until I had cataract surgeries when I was 48, I know that I often "rolled" my eyes or blinked in an effort to make my contacts feel more comfortable. When I heard that GZ purchased contact lense solution in the jail commissary, my suspicions were confirmed. I also feel that Zimmerman is scared about being in this predicament, and some of the eye-darting was likely due to his fears. :moo:

Elley Mae
04-14-2012, 02:19 PM
I was under the impression that the no snitch was in line with those of the drug world. So I guess I am to understand that the girlfriend would not call LE when it is possible that her boyfriend could need help or is hurt. Am I out of line to think that she doesn't call LE because her boyfriend may walk away and leave someone else on the ground. All hypothetical of course. jmo

octobermoon
04-14-2012, 02:22 PM
I haven't been able to keep up with new posts but wanted to comment about something on one of the previous threads since GZ's arrest. Some here were questioning why Zimmerman appeared to be rolling his eyes when he appeared in court on Thursday, and it was suggested that this might be a tic or something along these lines.

I noticed the eye movements, as well, but wondered whether or not GZ wore contact lenses. Having worn (hard) lenses from age 12 until I had cataract surgeries when I was 48, I know that I often "rolled" my eyes or blinked in an effort to make my contacts feel more comfortable. When I heard that GZ purchased contact lense solution in the jail commissary, my suspicions were confirmed. I also feel that Zimmerman is scared about being in this predicament, and some of the eye-darting was likely due to his fears. :moo:

I think you are right. I didn't take it as meaning something disrespectful. He is under a lot of stress. Stress of his own making, but stress none the less.

TorisMom003
04-14-2012, 02:34 PM
So why didn't Zimmerman call 911 after shooting Trayvon? Why did he not attempt CPR? Why did it take a concerned neighbor asking Zimmerman at least twice if everything was ok before Zimmerman told them to just call 911?

All of the talk about what the girlfriend didn't do, such as call 911 herself, when not much is being said about what Zimmerman didn't do after shooting Trayvon. Zimmerman was right there, used his gun, knew that Trayvon had been shot and still did not attempt to help him.

I suppose that a 15/16 year old girl in another town miles away is supposed to act like a responsible adult and do the "right thing", however a 28 year old man is allowed to do nothing when he was the one that killed a person.

MOO

octobermoon
04-14-2012, 02:35 PM
I was under the impression that the no snitch was in line with those of the drug world. So I guess I am to understand that the girlfriend would not call LE when it is possible that her boyfriend could need help or is hurt. Am I out of line to think that she doesn't call LE because her boyfriend may walk away and leave someone else on the ground. All hypothetical of course. jmo

Just maybe she was in another city miles away and thought he would call her back? Maybe she thought the phone went dead. Maybe at 15 years old she froze and didn't know what to do.

And yes it is out of line. He died. She was the last one to hear his voice before GZ shot him dead. This child is suppose to be more responsible than the man with the gun? The man told he didn't need to follow? The man who knew police were on the way?

Please can we leave this minor child alone until we know more?

Putting myself in time out.

MsCharlieChan
04-14-2012, 02:36 PM
For those judging this 16 year old girl and her actions after Trayvon's murder, I want to share a personal story.

I was dating someone a few years ago and one night he called me and told me that he had just killed his ex gf. We spoke for a few minutes and then he ended the call. I was in so much shock that I sat home alone for HOURS in silence. I had no idea what to do. It wasn't until I saw on the news later in the afternoon that he had ultimately killed himself that I managed to call my sister. I could have called the police after my phone call with him ended and I did not. I literally did not know what to do. Maybe if I had called the police they could have found him before he killed himself? I didn't know he was going to kill himself.

I was 29 years old at the time. An adult. I take great offense to those judging this 16 year olds actions when we don't know what she did or did not do after that phone call dropped.

MOO

What a moving story. Thank you so much for sharing it, for using your real-life, firsthand situation to shine a light on the possibilities.

All of us react differently to frightening or confusing situations. Some of us confront things without blinking. But most of us aren't made that way. I think your reaction is more of the norm.

It says a lot that he care enough about you to call and kind of say good-bye, though. Doesn't sound like you had any idea he'd hurt himself.

Did you find out why he did this to his ex? Did you know the two of them even had contact with each other?

Very sorry to hear about this. You'll never forget parts of that conversation. Ever. Just like Trayvon's girlfriend...

Elley Mae
04-14-2012, 02:43 PM
Just maybe she was in another city miles away and thought he would call her back? Maybe she thought the phone went dead. Maybe at 15 years old she froze and didn't know what to do.

And yes it is out of line. He died. She was the last one to hear his voice before GZ shot him dead. This child is suppose to be more responsible than the man with the gun? The man told he didn't need to follow? The man who knew police were on the way?

Please can we leave this minor child alone until we know more?

Putting myself in time out.

I was referring to "no snitch" and trying for the life of me to understand why if someone is in a situation that the last think that is talked about is the fact that someone is following you, and the possible reason she may not have called is because she was afraid of the police. sorry if that bothers you

TorisMom003
04-14-2012, 02:49 PM
Does anyone else think that it is possible that the blood on Zimmerman's nose area and back of his head could have been Trayvon's? Is it possible that LE noted the blood before Zimmerman was cleaned up and looked at by EMS and then when the blood was cleaned up it was realized that Zimmerman was not bleeding at all?

We have heard that Zimmerman had his hands on Trayvon as Trayvon was face down on the ground and then that Zimmerman put his hands on the back of his head.

I'm trying to figure out how to explain the LE's description of blood on Zimmerman and yet no apparent wounds on Zimmerman less than an hour later when at the police station.

thefragile7393
04-14-2012, 02:50 PM
I was under the impression that the no snitch was in line with those of the drug world. So I guess I am to understand that the girlfriend would not call LE when it is possible that her boyfriend could need help or is hurt. Am I out of line to think that she doesn't call LE because her boyfriend may walk away and leave someone else on the ground. All hypothetical of course. jmo
I heard it my whole life from kids in my neighborhood and schools. They weren't doing drugs or dealing....but these were things we had been taught over and over, usually from relatives or friends. If you report things, you get in trouble and things get worse. I saw a lot of bullying that never got reported because the bully could (and in one case, did) get back at someone for telling on them.

However i don't think that this was the situation here. It's been thrown out as a possibility but IMO that had nothing to do with her supposed lack of action.

No I highly doubt she may have not reported due to him getting in possible trouble. The MSM links that have been posted state she has been cooperative and does not appear to have anything to hide. TM did not do anything wrong, as far as we know with what we have right now, so there would be no reason to cover for him.

Many people here have posted many good logical reasons why she may or may not have reacted the way many people would have liked. People have even posted their own personal stories. I don't know how much more logic and reason can be posted anymore...people believe what they want to believe.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

Karmady
04-14-2012, 02:56 PM
BBM But, by making this statement, are you not assuming the GF is black?

Excellent point since, afaik, we know next to nothing about her. What I've read is that she attends the same school as Trayvon, lives in the Miami area and was his girlfriend by some definition. Based on my own teenager's definition of dating, that could mean a lot of things but we don't even know the true nature of their relationship -- like how long they had been dating, for example. We also know that Trayvon's parents thought he would be less likely to get in trouble if he were away from her and his other friends, but we don't know exactly why they felt that way. We also have heard/read a brief part of her description of the conversation betweent the two of them, and that she became hysterical and was hospitalized over Trayvon's death. Personally, I only read it and didn't hear her version of part of the conversation, so maybe some of you have heard her speak and have a little bit more information than I do.

I don't think her name or photo has been released. Has it?

curl_in_progress
04-14-2012, 02:59 PM
What a moving story. Thank you so much for sharing it, for using your real-life, firsthand situation to shine a light on the possibilities.

All of us react differently to frightening or confusing situations. Some of us confront things without blinking. But most of us aren't made that way. I think your reaction is more of the norm.

It says a lot that he care enough about you to call and kind of say good-bye, though. Doesn't sound like you had any idea he'd hurt himself.

Did you find out why he did this to his ex? Did you know the two of them even had contact with each other?

Very sorry to hear about this. You'll never forget parts of that conversation. Ever. Just like Trayvon's girlfriend...

Thank you for this post. It was extremely traumatic and I'm still dealing with it. I didn't realize it was a good-bye call at the time. There are so many things I wish I had said. I don't really know why he killed her. I have a couple of theories based on some conversations that I had with him about her, but only he really knows why. They had not been in contact for a little while when he killed her. I only say that with semi-certainty because things went from somewhat amicable between them to awful. (I can only assume that the cause of them not speaking is what made him kill her.) He went out of his way to do it.

And to keep it on topic, I did not have to go looking for the police after it happened. They showed up at my door to question me.

MsCharlieChan
04-14-2012, 03:11 PM
I was under the impression that the no snitch was in line with those of the drug world. So I guess I am to understand that the girlfriend would not call LE when it is possible that her boyfriend could need help or is hurt. Am I out of line to think that she doesn't call LE because her boyfriend may walk away and leave someone else on the ground. All hypothetical of course. jmo

"No snitching" isn't just about drug-related issues. If you see someone stealing a car, robbing a senior citizen, hitting their girlfriend, etc. you need to use caution about phoning 911.

Whenever you take the risk of getting a person thrown in jail, you can incur wrath and retribution.

Beyond that, there are at least a dozen scenarios that would run through a female's mind after that phone call ends. She can think the worse, second guess herself, suspect that she's over-reacting, and drive herself crazy with worry and wonder. There is confusion.

Yes, she could assume that TM was laying dead on the ground in some town on the other side of the state of Florida. And probably talk herself out of assuming the worst.

She could assume that she's over-reacting, that he's fine and will call her back in the next hour or so.

She could assume that TM got in a fight and is in police custody over it.

She could assume that he's full of *****, that maybe he saw some pretty girl and dumped her. And he has a cold and silly way of breaking up with her.

But at some point, most people tell themselves the unthinkable would never really happen. Usually things work out and no one's really dead.

Females learn that guys sometimes disappear and do things differently (i.e., act weird? :). We learn to stop ourselves from assuming he's dead when he doesn't call us back after 5 minutes.

We try not to be negative-thinking, hysterical stalkers. So yes, TM's girlfriend could be extremely worried, but talk herself down from figuring out how to call the police across the state.

TorisMom003
04-14-2012, 03:15 PM
"The day after, he went into his job to let them know what was going on," said Oliver, who has spoken to Zimmerman at least twice since the shooting. "That is the last I know of anyone seeing George."

http://my.news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-world-heard-cries-032755828.html

That is the first time that I have ever heard of anyone actually seeing Zimmerman, other than LE, after the shooting. If this story is true then I would expect Zimmerman's boss to be called at the trial.

TorisMom003
04-14-2012, 03:30 PM
Excellent point since, afaik, we know next to nothing about her. What I've read is that she attends the same school as Trayvon, lives in the Miami area and was his girlfriend by some definition. Based on my own teenager's definition of dating, that could mean a lot of things but we don't even know the true nature of their relationship -- like how long they had been dating, for example. We also know that Trayvon's parents thought he would be less likely to get in trouble if he were away from her and his other friends, but we don't know exactly why they felt that way. We also have heard/read a brief part of her description of the conversation betweent the two of them, and that she became hysterical and was hospitalized over Trayvon's death. Personally, I only read it and didn't hear her version of part of the conversation, so maybe some of you have heard her speak and have a little bit more information than I do.

I don't think her name or photo has been released. Has it?

RBBM

Is there a link that shows this part to be true? I have looked myself at past articles and haven't seen anything that says the parents have said this.

TIA

Cher352
04-14-2012, 03:36 PM
"The day after, he went into his job to let them know what was going on," said Oliver, who has spoken to Zimmerman at least twice since the shooting. "That is the last I know of anyone seeing George."

http://my.news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-world-heard-cries-032755828.html

That is the first time that I have ever heard of anyone actually seeing Zimmerman, other than LE, after the shooting. If this story is true then I would expect Zimmerman's boss to be called at the trial.

Thanks! That is a very good article that seems to lay it all out. For those who may have not followed this case from the beginning I would highly recommend reading it.

LynnM
04-14-2012, 03:42 PM
I was referring to "no snitch" and trying for the life of me to understand why if someone is in a situation that the last think that is talked about is the fact that someone is following you, and the possible reason she may not have called is because she was afraid of the police. sorry if that bothers you

I don't have any problem with wondering why she didn't contact anyone about the call. I think she was confused about what happened, tried to call him back, maybe talked to her mother who thought that she over reacted or misinterpreted the call. Apparently she learned at the wake that he was killed just after she talked to him and collapsed and had to be hospitalized. I can't find all the links right now but I believe that attorney Crump said that her mother initially was following doctor's instructions to keep her away from stress and then when she learned more about the situation, she was afraid for her daughter and did not want her talking to the Sanford police. She relented when Crump contacted the family and assured them that her daughter would be talking to federal authorities. They have also cooperated with investigators with the special prosecutor's office.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-arrest-now-abc-reveals-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T4nSQ9Xq4Vg

annalia
04-14-2012, 03:49 PM
"The day after, he went into his job to let them know what was going on," said Oliver, who has spoken to Zimmerman at least twice since the shooting. "That is the last I know of anyone seeing George."

http://my.news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-world-heard-cries-032755828.html

That is the first time that I have ever heard of anyone actually seeing Zimmerman, other than LE, after the shooting. If this story is true then I would expect Zimmerman's boss to be called at the trial.

From your link;


"He told me Zimmerman's story was that Zimmerman was of course following him and that Trayvon approached his vehicle, walked up to the car and asked Zimmerman, 'Why are your following me?' Zimmerman then rolls his car windows down, tells Trayvon 'I'm not following you.' He rolls his car windows up.
"Trayvon walks off. Zimmerman said he started running between the buildings. Zimmerman gets out of his car. He comes around the building. Trayvon is hiding behind the building, waiting on him. Trayvon approaches him and says, 'What's your problem, homes?' Zimmerman says 'I don't have a problem.'

This is also similar to what GZ's father said that GZ told him.

This contradicts GZ's own 911 call.

I wonder if this is the statement he gave to police that night? If so it doesn't bode well for him, in my opinion.

If Trayvon had really gone up to his car, why didn't GZ just say he was part of Neighborhood Watch, that he didn't recognize him, ask if everything was ok?

JMHO

momshrink
04-14-2012, 03:51 PM
This is why I will always stay in Florida! At least with a Hurricane, we get a good warning! The North can keep their blizzards. Tornado Alley can keep their Tornados. Anywhere that has Earthquakes can keep their Earthquakes. I don't like the cold and I don't like not knowing that a tornado or an earthquake could come at any time. I'm a coward like that (even though I do want to go storm chasing).

Same here. I have lived in tornado alley, New Hampshire blizzards, Illinois floods. I am so glad to live in Florida! And I lived thru Charlie, Jeanne, and Ivan. I'll take the hurricanes over all the rest! Plus it is warm. Love that! :cool:

mercuriod
04-14-2012, 03:52 PM
We gave daughter a phone for her 16th B-day, and if she had even thought about locking it, in the trash it would have went. As long as we paid the bill it was our phone for her to use. She had the phone for 10 years before she took over the bill. that's just us.

We also gave our daughter a cell phone for her 16th b-day, it was password protected but we knew the password, she knew that if she changed the password we would take the phone away. I also had to have her email, facebook, etc. passwords or she lost use of the computer. She is now in college, still living at home, I am still paying the bills and I still know all her passwords, but that is more because she keeps forgetting them and has to ask me what they are, LOL.

mercuriod
04-14-2012, 03:54 PM
:seeya:

umm yeah....right here at "ground zero".....storm chasers and NWS trucks out and about around town!!!

Stay safe!

itsreenw
04-14-2012, 03:56 PM
Not trying to be mean but the defense could try to say that others influenced her to alter the exact content to keep Trayvon from appearing anything other than harmless.

Now is just example not saying or implying it is true...
But what if when she told him to run he replied not with "No, I am going to walk fast" but with "No, I am going to get his ass".
Someone could have told her not to mention that.

That is why I said in my first post that I hope she told someone the content early on so that the defense would not try to insinuate that she was coached on what to or not to say that was on the call.
I'm sorry. I misunderstood. I see your point.

I'm sure she has a FB or Twitter acct as do most teens. I know the teens in my life post EVERYTHING on there. "I'm eating dinner, now I'm watching American idol, my mom just yelled at me, I just sneezed..."

So hopefully she posted something then while it was fresh in her mind. No matter what was said, let truth and justice prevail.

annalia
04-14-2012, 03:56 PM
Does anyone else think that it is possible that the blood on Zimmerman's nose area and back of his head could have been Trayvon's? Is it possible that LE noted the blood before Zimmerman was cleaned up and looked at by EMS and then when the blood was cleaned up it was realized that Zimmerman was not bleeding at all?

We have heard that Zimmerman had his hands on Trayvon as Trayvon was face down on the ground and then that Zimmerman put his hands on the back of his head.

I'm trying to figure out how to explain the LE's description of blood on Zimmerman and yet no apparent wounds on Zimmerman less than an hour later when at the police station.

Yes, I do.

I actually brought up that just the other day. But it would make sense, for the reasons you state, he had just shot him, witness said he had his hand on his head.

It could very well have been Trayvon's, but sadly, I don't think we will ever know now because I doubt that they tested the blood to see if it could have been Trayvon's.

JMHO

IzzyBlanche
04-14-2012, 03:57 PM
Excellent point since, afaik, we know next to nothing about her. What I've read is that she attends the same school as Trayvon, lives in the Miami area and was his girlfriend by some definition. Based on my own teenager's definition of dating, that could mean a lot of things but we don't even know the true nature of their relationship -- like how long they had been dating, for example. We also know that Trayvon's parents thought he would be less likely to get in trouble if he were away from her and his other friends, but we don't know exactly why they felt that way. We also have heard/read a brief part of her description of the conversation betweent the two of them, and that she became hysterical and was hospitalized over Trayvon's death. Personally, I only read it and didn't hear her version of part of the conversation, so maybe some of you have heard her speak and have a little bit more information than I do.

I don't think her name or photo has been released. Has it?

BBM. I don't think we "know" this at all. I have never seen it stated that they specifically wanted him to get away from her or his friends.

Please provide a link to this. Otherwise I think it is conjecture, not fact.

mercuriod
04-14-2012, 03:59 PM
At what point does Florida typically make all the documents public? Would it be right after the arraignment?

Ms. Corey had the cased sealed when she filed the charges. That means unless someone (the media usually) files in court to have the records unsealed per the states Sunshine Laws, the documents will not be made public until they are introduced in the trial.

thefragile7393
04-14-2012, 04:00 PM
I know the teens in my life post EVERYTHING on there. "I'm eating dinner, now I'm watching American idol, my mom just yelled at me, I just sneezed..."

Lolol this cracked me up... a good many of the adults in my life post stuff like this!

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

mercuriod
04-14-2012, 04:04 PM
Not trying to be mean but the defense could try to say that others influenced her to alter the exact content to keep Trayvon from appearing anything other than harmless.

Now is just example not saying or implying it is true...
But what if when she told him to run he replied not with "No, I am going to walk fast" but with "No, I am going to get his ass".
Someone could have told her not to mention that.

That is why I said in my first post that I hope she told someone the content early on so that the defense would not try to insinuate that she was coached on what to or not to say that was on the call.

If she has been coached to lie, I believe that will come out long before the trial. This 15 year old child is going to have to go through depositions in which she will be sworn under oath from both the prosecution and the defense, do you really think that a 15 year old child is going to be able to hold up under that intense pressure if she is lying? I don't, and I hope that I never get so jaded that I think a 15 year old child can be that devious.

mercuriod
04-14-2012, 04:11 PM
Excellent point since, afaik, we know next to nothing about her. What I've read is that she attends the same school as Trayvon, lives in the Miami area and was his girlfriend by some definition. Based on my own teenager's definition of dating, that could mean a lot of things but we don't even know the true nature of their relationship -- like how long they had been dating, for example. We also know that Trayvon's parents thought he would be less likely to get in trouble if he were away from her and his other friends, but we don't know exactly why they felt that way. We also have heard/read a brief part of her description of the conversation betweent the two of them, and that she became hysterical and was hospitalized over Trayvon's death. Personally, I only read it and didn't hear her version of part of the conversation, so maybe some of you have heard her speak and have a little bit more information than I do.

I don't think her name or photo has been released. Has it?

As for her name the only thing that has been released the name Dee-Dee, as for a photo, yes one has been released of her and Trayvon it is photo # 2 in this series :
<mod snip>

octobermoon
04-14-2012, 04:13 PM
I was referring to "no snitch" and trying for the life of me to understand why if someone is in a situation that the last think that is talked about is the fact that someone is following you, and the possible reason she may not have called is because she was afraid of the police. sorry if that bothers you

Yes it does bother me, but no worries :)

I don't like second guessing a minor child's reaction to a tragedy. She hasn't the life experience, maturity to know what to do. Hello, I am not sure if I was miles away what I would think or do, and I am way older than her.

I don't care what is talked about as long as we leave minors out of it. That really worries me. She could be reading here now and feel even more intimidated by our words. She is a kid who didn't do a damn thing wrong.
She is a victim too. IMO

I took issue with the part about the drugs, and insinuation that her boyfriend may have left someone on the ground. As that is what GZ's family and friends are peddling (my word) to the media. And then there was that whole weird thread the other night about drug dealers and extra bodies.....:crazy:

I will stand up and raise my hand and say I used pot as a teen and was not caught. (okay, I had a very forgiving art teacher in HS who suspected, but didn't call my mom, but told me and Allen no more long lunches. LOL) :what:


:)

momshrink
04-14-2012, 04:15 PM
For those judging this 16 year old girl and her actions after Trayvon's murder, I want to share a personal story.

I was dating someone a few years ago and one night he called me and told me that he had just killed his ex gf. We spoke for a few minutes and then he ended the call. I was in so much shock that I sat home alone for HOURS in silence. I had no idea what to do. It wasn't until I saw on the news later in the afternoon that he had ultimately killed himself that I managed to call my sister. I could have called the police after my phone call with him ended and I did not. I literally did not know what to do. Maybe if I had called the police they could have found him before he killed himself? I didn't know he was going to kill himself.

I was 29 years olhd at the time. An adult. I take great offense to those judging this 16 year olds actions when we don't know what she did or did not do after that phone call dropped.

MOO
That must have been so hard. (((Hugs)))

joypath
04-14-2012, 04:18 PM
"The day after, he went into his job to let them know what was going on," said Oliver, who has spoken to Zimmerman at least twice since the shooting. "That is the last I know of anyone seeing George."

http://my.news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-world-heard-cries-032755828.html

That is the first time that I have ever heard of anyone actually seeing Zimmerman, other than LE, after the shooting. If this story is true then I would expect Zimmerman's boss to be called at the trial.



:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead: :banghead:


Now I use the above "head-banger" icon for a reason...GZ was a VERY busy man in the hours after his severe PTSD and "close to diapers & spoonfeeding" incident, as the shooting death of Trayvon has been described by folks SPEAKING FOR George. IIRC, he's released from the police station and ventures homeward, then SOMETIME during business hours (see article above) he chats with boss.
AND it has been claimed that he ALSO received medical attention (no link, RZ & RZ,Jr.'s comments discussed ad nauseaum) SOMETIME during the SAME 24 hour period. JMO, but if he were at a large municipal ER/ED, COUNT on an extended wait "for service" UNLESS he used "red-flag" terminology (nope, I will NOT comment!).
AND he & the Mrs. packed up & "Zimmerman and his wife moved out of the townhouse they rented in the Twin Lakes complex almost immediately, Oliver said" (see link in Tori's comment).

:moo: Sorry folks but IMHO as SOMEONE who HAS BEEN diagnosed & treated professionally for injuries that occurred in the manner (got "decked" by a family member who didn't like my courtroom testimony in a child abuse/homicide case!) as described by GZ, ability to carry off all of those behaviors above isn't present WITHOUT some wicked bad nausea, headache(s)!, sensitivity to motion (like moving one's head!) & light, vomiting from the swallowed blood, "wooziness" and some fantastic "air walking" from the pain meds!
OH YEAH, as an afterthought..........the responding EMT/paramedics DID NOT "clean & polish or iron" my damaged/bloody/soiled crisp white blouse & business suit~getting pummeled on cement isn't good for clothing fibers, pantyhose or leather heels, either!
AGAIN, stated as my humble opinion (IMHO) & experience (JME), no link 'cause the perp pled guilty to a misdemeanor. :what::what::what:

:maddening: SO....GZ's "team" should have/better have/ought to have some hardcore, hardcopy documents to bolster his story....and I do not want to see a "doctored" x-ray/MRI/CATor PETscan nor "modified" HCP chart notes. :rocker:

gitana1
04-14-2012, 04:19 PM
And I'm wondering what this has to do with anything since it would not have changed the outcome of Trayvon ending up dead. The girl has no superpowers.

Some people seem to be inferring that because this girl did not call 911 right away or anyone else, as far as we can tell, she either heard Trayvon being aggressive and starting a fight and thus had no reason to call for help since he was the aggressor, or, she really heard nothing of significance and thus had no reason to be alarmed.

They appear to be inferring that because she did not apparently call for help right away, she is lying. Either because of community pressure or love or whatever.

I think that's b.s.

Someone asked why else she would not have called 911 or asked for help right away. I have given what I thought were solid reasons and others have as well, so I will not repeat here.

From the old thread:


So which exception do you think applies. They are rather limited. Impending death, maybe? But he would have had to believe that death was imminent at the time the statement was made?

Idk, I think there are exceptions that may apply, but I'm not sure the unavailable declarant is the most likely one, especially since the last exception is significantly different than the Feds, iirc.

I'm headed for bed in a few, but want to thank you again for your professional opinion. Merci!

I did not see your question earlier. Sorry! Trayvon's statements as relayed by his girlfriend would come in under 90.804 (1) (d): Is unable to be present or to testify at the hearing because of death or because of then-existing physical or mental illness or infirmity; BBM.
http://www.flsenate.gov/laws/statutes/2011/90.804

This is not a federal rule, it's a state rule. It is also not a dying declaration exception, which is different. It is a declarant unavailable (due to death) exception. Dying declaration is someone's last words which is an alternate exception in some states where the "declarant unavailable" exception does not exist. Both are used in Florida.

Trayvon's statements to his girlfriend come in.

gitana1
04-14-2012, 04:25 PM
As for her name the only thing that has been released the name

Respectfully snipped by me. I think we should be careful about posting any identifying info on this girl. She is a minor and a crucial witness to a very high profile crime.

itsreenw
04-14-2012, 04:26 PM
I was under the impression that the no snitch was in line with those of the drug world. So I guess I am to understand that the girlfriend would not call LE when it is possible that her boyfriend could need help or is hurt. Am I out of line to think that she doesn't call LE because her boyfriend may walk away and leave someone else on the ground. All hypothetical of course. jmo

The "no snitching" code is for those involved in criminal activity or in a situation where there is a high possibility of retaliation if it's found out that you told the police something.

That unwritten rule is pretty much squashed when it hits close to home. A person losing a loved one is expected to retaliate or want justice.

Organized crime families such as the Mafia, street gangs, everybody in prison, and most street criminals of all ethnicities would probably abide by that.

It's not just Black kids or teens as someone suggested upthread. And it would not apply in a situation where a loved one is hurt or dying and calling 911 would save them.

2goldfish
04-14-2012, 04:27 PM
For those judging this 16 year old girl and her actions after Trayvon's murder, I want to share a personal story.

I was dating someone a few years ago and one night he called me and told me that he had just killed his ex gf. We spoke for a few minutes and then he ended the call. I was in so much shock that I sat home alone for HOURS in silence. I had no idea what to do. It wasn't until I saw on the news later in the afternoon that he had ultimately killed himself that I managed to call my sister. I could have called the police after my phone call with him ended and I did not. I literally did not know what to do. Maybe if I had called the police they could have found him before he killed himself? I didn't know he was going to kill himself.

I was 29 years old at the time. An adult. I take great offense to those judging this 16 year olds actions when we don't know what she did or did not do after that phone call dropped.

MOO

oh how terrible for you :hug:


I agree, trayvon's poor gf, she was worried I am sure but who ever, ever thinks something like this can really happen TO THEM or someone they LOVE?

octobermoon
04-14-2012, 04:30 PM
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead: :banghead:


Now I use the above "head-banger" icon for a reason...GZ was a VERY busy man in the hours after his severe PTSD and "close to diapers & spoonfeeding" incident, as the shooting death of Trayvon has been described by folks SPEAKING FOR George. IIRC, he's released from the police station and ventures homeward, then SOMETIME during business hours (see article above) he chats with boss.
AND it has been claimed that he ALSO received medical attention (no link, RZ & RZ,Jr.'s comments discussed ad nauseaum) SOMETIME during the SAME 24 hour period. JMO, but if he were at a large municipal ER/ED, COUNT on an extended wait "for service" UNLESS he used "red-flag" terminology (nope, I will NOT comment!).
AND he & the Mrs. packed up & "Zimmerman and his wife moved out of the townhouse they rented in the Twin Lakes complex almost immediately, Oliver said" (see link in Tori's comment).

:moo: Sorry folks but IMHO as SOMEONE who HAS BEEN diagnosed & treated professionally for injuries that occurred in the manner (got "decked" by a family member who didn't like my courtroom testimony in a child abuse/homicide case!) as described by GZ, ability to carry off all of those behaviors above isn't present WITHOUT some wicked bad nausea, headache(s)!, sensitivity to motion (like moving one's head!) & light, vomiting from the swallowed blood, "wooziness" and some fantastic "air walking" from the pain meds!
OH YEAH, as an afterthought..........the responding EMT/paramedics DID NOT "clean & polish or iron" my damaged/bloody/soiled crisp white blouse & business suit~getting pummeled on cement isn't good for clothing fibers, pantyhose or leather heels, either!
AGAIN, stated as my humble opinion (IMHO) & experience (JME), no link 'cause the perp pled guilty to a misdemeanor. :what::what::what:

:maddening: SO....GZ's "team" should have/better have/ought to have some hardcore, hardcopy documents to bolster his story....and I do not want to see a "doctored" x-ray/MRI/CATor PETscan nor "modified" HCP chart notes. :rocker:


:clap: :clap: :clap:

we've missed you!

AngelWings444
04-14-2012, 04:32 PM
"The day after, he went into his job to let them know what was going on," said Oliver, who has spoken to Zimmerman at least twice since the shooting. "That is the last I know of anyone seeing George."

http://my.news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-world-heard-cries-032755828.html

That is the first time that I have ever heard of anyone actually seeing Zimmerman, other than LE, after the shooting. If this story is true then I would expect Zimmerman's boss to be called at the trial.
But, this statement comes from Oliver. It's probably true, and if it is, the boss will be called as a witness at trial. I don't really believe everything Oliver has said.

Great article.

Adrienne37
04-14-2012, 04:46 PM
But, this statement comes from Oliver. It's probably true, and if it is, the boss will be called as a witness at trial. I don't really believe everything Oliver has said.

Great article.

Especially considering that it has been proven that Oliver was not a family friend of Zimmerman. Below is a link to one of the greatest interviews conducted regarding this case to the point (with the exception of anything from Sybrina and Tracy or their attorneys when Lawrence O'Donnell from MSNBC and Charles Blow from the NY Times proceeded to out Mr. Oliver on his relationship with Zimmerman. This stands as some of the best media ever.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/28/joe-oliver-the-last-word_n_1384419.html

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/lawrence-odonnells-interview-of-joe-oliver-didnt-just-make-fireworks-it-made-news/

~jmo~

momshrink
04-14-2012, 04:49 PM
"The day after, he went into his job to let them know what was going on," said Oliver, who has spoken to Zimmerman at least twice since the shooting. "That is the last I know of anyone seeing George."

http://my.news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-world-heard-cries-032755828.html

That is the first time that I have ever heard of anyone actually seeing Zimmerman, other than LE, after the shooting. If this story is true then I would expect Zimmerman's boss to be called at the trial.

Thanks for this link. The article lays out the sequence of events before this became national news. It explains a lot.
JMO

MsCharlieChan
04-14-2012, 04:50 PM
This contradicts GZ's own 911 call.

I wonder if this is the statement he gave to police that night? If so it doesn't bode well for him, in my opinion.

If Trayvon had really gone up to his car, why didn't GZ just say he was part of Neighborhood Watch, that he didn't recognize him, ask if everything was ok?

JMHO

Yes. That's what Trayvon's dad says Detective Chris Serino repeated as the story GZ told authorities.

Also, if a 6ft guy is "on top of you" -- covering your mouth and pounding your head against the concrete -- how can you physically get your hands down under or around the big guy to pull out your gun?

Plus... If TM was covering GZ's mouth as part banging his head on the concrete, how could GZ scream for help w/ mouth covereed? Wouldn't the noises on 911 calls sound muffled, if audible at all?

Trayvon's dad say Det. Serino also said he had planned to interview GZ again. The detective didn't believe GZ and wanted to "catch him in a lie."

But Serino's higher-ups put a stop to that. There are big questions surrounding this decision. Which is why the Feds are looking at the SPD.

Adrienne37
04-14-2012, 04:54 PM
Trayvon Martin’s parents find purpose, solace in activism

Respected housing authority worker Sybrina Fulton, Trayvon Martin’s mother, has become a nationally known activist.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/14/2748102/trayvons-parents-find-purpose.html#storylink=cpy

Trapshooter
04-14-2012, 04:55 PM
Hi friends!!!

Can someone point me in the direction of Trayvon's girlfriends' statements?

Do we have a copy of Angela Corey's (?) probable cause thing? My mind is having a brain fart right now and I can't think of what it's called? Nancy Grace was quoting excerpts from it last night.

Thanks!

annalia
04-14-2012, 05:02 PM
Yes. That's what Trayvon's dad says Detective Chris Serino repeated as the story GZ told authorities.

Also, if a 6ft guy is "on top of you" -- covering your mouth and pounding your head against the concrete -- how can you physically get your hands down under or around the big guy to pull out your gun?

Plus... If TM was covering GZ's mouth as part banging his head on the concrete, how could GZ scream for help w/ mouth covereed? Wouldn't the noises on 911 calls sound muffled, if audible at all?

Trayvon's dad say Det. Serino also said he had planned to interview GZ again. The detective didn't believe GZ and wanted to "catch him in a lie."

But Serino's higher-ups put a stop to that. There are big questions surrounding this decision. Which is why the Feds are looking at the SPD.

And after Trayvon was pummeling GZ's head into the ground and GZ shoots him, how did Trayvon's body wind up face down in the opposite direction, with his head away from the sidewalk? Didn't witnesses report that immediately after hearing the shot, they saw Trayvon laying face down?

Hard to believe that in order to do CPR on him, they needed to turn his body over and then turn him in the opposite direction, so can't see that as being the reason.

JMHO

grandmaj
04-14-2012, 05:02 PM
I have done extensive research on this issue of allegations that the girlfriend did not come forward for 3 weeks.

I'm going to post it and then, after talking to other moderators and Admins, it has been decided this issue has been discussed to infinity and beyond, and we need to move on.

The girlfriend is considered an innocent victim and thus she should only be discussed in terms of whether you believe her testimony or not. You have a right to discuss why you don't believe her testimony. But we are not going to allow wild theories without proof to back them up. These are the consistent rules for victims and this young girl is considered a victim.

If you read the links you will learn that she was represented by counsel to protect her interests soon after she learned she was the last person to talk to Trayvon before he was murdered.

(1) The records of the phone calls I'm going to post are not Travon's but the girlfriends. If you listen to the taped interview, ABC made a statement that they exclusively got the call logs, that police had them, but never called the girlfriend. They vetted the girlfriend's call logs before running the story on 3/21.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-arrest-now-abc-reveals-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T4nZBdl0nWB

(2) Next I went looking for information about the funeral. There really is little out there because remember this case didn't take off in the news until about the second week, but more so the third week in March when everyone was resigning and the media started really delving into this case.

After not finding anything else I went to Isabelle Zehnder who is a friend of WS and her articles in the Examiner are allowed. I should have gone there first, but at 4am I wasn't very sharp. :lol:

I found the following:
Snip:

Trayvon’s girlfriend, who is a minor and whose name will not be released, learned the day after Trayvon’s wake that she was the last person, other than his killer, to speak with him alive.

Another snip:

"Trayvon's girlfriend just wants justice, period. She was extremely fearful of the Sanford Police Department and was scared of retaliation for cooperating with the investigators.

“Her mother is very protective of her and will make sure she is safe. It's tragic that this teenager's life has now been changed forever, and the innocence of her youth is essentially gone."

This is all in the story with quotes from Radar on-line who broke the story.

http://www.examiner.com/unsolved-cases-in-national/trayvon-martin-s-girlfriend-hospitalized

Now, still not being able to find anything about the date of the funeral I began listening to the funeral director talk about lack of injuries pointing to him saying the struggle doesn't add up. I watched videos rather than rely on the typed word. I got Lucky.

At approx 1:47 in the video posted at the link below(go full screen) there is a quick scan of the memorial folder used for Trayvon's Memorial Service. I believe the date is the 3rd, but it could be an 8 also. Trayvon's service would have been on one of those two dates. The date is at the bottom of the Memorial Folder for his service. Maybe someone with better eyes can zoom in on it and capture the date. :)

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/03/29/funeral-director-no-signs-of-scuffle-on-trayvon-martins-body/

Remember now what we are told in the Examiner Article.... The girlfriend found out the day after the visitation. So that puts it in the first week of March less than a week from Trayvon's death, if the March 3rd date is correct. It would also point to the phone records being hers and her calling the Sanford Police on March 2, 2012.

Adrienne37
04-14-2012, 05:03 PM
Hi friends!!!

Can someone point me in the direction of Trayvon's girlfriends' statements?

Do we have a copy of Angela Corey's (?) probable cause thing? My mind is having a brain fart right now and I can't think of what it's called? Nancy Grace was quoting excerpts from it last night.

Thanks!

Here you go.

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-04/69353440.pdf

Adrienne37
04-14-2012, 05:05 PM
I have done extensive research on this issue of allegations that the girlfriend did not come forward for 3 weeks.

I'm going to post it and then, after talking to other moderators and Admins, it has been decided this issue has been discussed to infinity and beyond, and we need to move on.

The girlfriend is considered an innocent victim and thus she should only be discussed in terms of whether you believe her testimony or not. You have a right to discuss why you don't believe her testimony. But we are not going to allow wild theories without proof to back them up. These are the consistent rules for victims and this young girl is considered a victim.

If you read the links you will learn that she was represented by counsel to protect her interests soon after she learned she was the last person to talk to Trayvon before he was murdered.

(1) The records of the phone calls I'm going to post are not Travon's but the girlfriends. If you listen to the taped interview, ABC made a statement that they exclusively got the call logs, that police had them, but never called the girlfriend. They vetted the girlfriend's call logs before running the story on 3/21.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-arrest-now-abc-reveals-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T4nZBdl0nWB

(2) Next I went looking for information about the funeral. There really is little out there because remember this case didn't take off in the news until about the second week, but more so the third week in March when everyone was resigning and the media started really delving into this case.

After not finding anything else I went to Isabelle Zehnder who is a friend of WS and her articles in the Examiner are allowed. I should have gone there first, but at 4am I wasn't very sharp. :lol:

I found the following:
Snip:

Trayvon’s girlfriend, who is a minor and whose name will not be released, learned the day after Trayvon’s wake that she was the last person, other than his killer, to speak with him alive.

Another snip:

"Trayvon's girlfriend just wants justice, period. She was extremely fearful of the Sanford Police Department and was scared of retaliation for cooperating with the investigators.

“Her mother is very protective of her and will make sure she is safe. It's tragic that this teenager's life has now been changed forever, and the innocence of her youth is essentially gone."

This is all in the story with quotes from Radar on-line who broke the story.

http://www.examiner.com/unsolved-cases-in-national/trayvon-martin-s-girlfriend-hospitalized

Now, still not being able to find anything about the date of the funeral I began listening to the funeral director talk about lack of injuries pointing to him saying the struggle doesn't add up. I watched videos rather than rely on the typed word. I got Lucky.

At approx 1:47 in the video posted at the link below(go full screen) there is a quick scan of the memorial folder used for Trayvon's Memorial Service. I believe the date is the 3rd, but it could be an 8 also. Trayvon's service would have been on one of those two dates. The date is at the bottom of the Memorial Folder for his service. Maybe someone with better eyes can zoom in on it and capture the date. :)

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/03/29/funeral-director-no-signs-of-scuffle-on-trayvon-martins-body/

Remember now what we are told in the Examiner Article.... The girlfriend found out the day after the visitation. So that puts it in the first week of March less than a week from Trayvon's death, if the March 3rd date is correct. It would also point to the phone records being hers and her calling the Sanford Police on March 2, 2012.

Thank you so much grandmaj for all the time and effort that you put into this to provide us the correct information. Your hard work is definitely appreciated and hopefully this will clear up any misconceptions out there about this poor little girl.



~jmo~

octobermoon
04-14-2012, 05:06 PM
Hi friends!!!

Can someone point me in the direction of Trayvon's girlfriends' statements?

Do we have a copy of Angela Corey's (?) probable cause thing? My mind is having a brain fart right now and I can't think of what it's called? Nancy Grace was quoting excerpts from it last night.

Thanks!

no farting* :floorlaugh:

Trayvon's girlfriend hasn't given a statement that has been released to the public. AFAIK

Probable cause thingy

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/12/us/13shooter-document.html


*sorry I hang out with an 8 year old who loves the word fart. LOL

momshrink
04-14-2012, 05:06 PM
[quote=mercuriod;7789258]As for her name the only thing that has been released the name Dee-Dee, as for a photo, yes one has been released of her and Trayvon it is photo # 2 in this series :

<mod snip>

Great pictures!

Nova
04-14-2012, 05:11 PM
No, she couldn't have affected the outcome.

But I believe this paints kind of a different picture of what actually was going on - what Trayvon was telling her, and the brief conversation she overheard.

As she tells the story, any girlfriend would have been in a terror panic after hearing that. The fact that she didn't react like a girl terrified for the safety of her boyfriend colors my perception of what actually took place, and what actually she overheard.

She is 15.

She was 250 miles away.

Cell phone calls get dropped everyday; it rarely means the other party has been a victim of a crime, much less murdered.

Last I heard, she didn't hear the gun shot. She merely heard a brief exchange of two mildly confrontational questions along the lines of "What are you doing here?"

Her boyfriend was two years older than she and over six feet tall.

We don't know whether she had phone numbers for Trayvon's mother or father, or anybody else in his family.

IIRC she called Trayvon back and got no answer. We don't know whether she tried any other way to reach him.

But even assuming she did nothing but leave a message or text and wait for him to call back, it's ridiculous to inflate a 15-year-old's inaction into proof that her boyfriend was doing something suspicious.

Reader
04-14-2012, 05:15 PM
From your link;



This is also similar to what GZ's father said that GZ told him.

This contradicts GZ's own 911 call.

I wonder if this is the statement he gave to police that night? If so it doesn't bode well for him, in my opinion.

If Trayvon had really gone up to his car, why didn't GZ just say he was part of Neighborhood Watch, that he didn't recognize him, ask if everything was ok?

JMHO

BBM - That is the one part of this that troubles me most about this incident and makes me believe that GZ had already profiled Trayvon and had no good intentions toward him.

If GZ was so proud of being 'captain' of the NW asso., why did he not identify himself? Seems he would have relished giving out that information to anybody he stopped to let them know he was 'in charge' of the neighborhood.

If GZ had just ID'd himself and acted as a real NW person should, this entire tragedy could have been avoided. Why, when Trayvon asked him why he was following him, did GZ not explain who he was and why he was doing so? What was so different about this night and the times he previously reported suspicious people?

IMO

octobermoon
04-14-2012, 05:15 PM
She is 15.

She was 250 miles away.

Cell phone calls get dropped everyday; it rarely means the other party has been a victim of a crime, much less murdered.

Last I heard, she didn't hear the gun shot. She merely heard a brief exchange of two mildly confrontational questions along the lines of "What are you doing here?"

Her boyfriend was two years older than she and over six feet tall.

We don't know whether she had phone numbers for Trayvon's mother or father, or anybody else in his family.

IIRC she called Trayvon back and got no answer. We don't know whether she tried any other way to reach him.

But even assuming she did nothing but leave a message or text and wait for him to call back, it's ridiculous to inflate a 15-year-old's inaction into proof that her boyfriend was doing something suspicious.

you write what I think. Thank you. :)

Karmady
04-14-2012, 05:16 PM
RBBM

Is there a link that shows this part to be true? I have looked myself at past articles and haven't seen anything that says the parents have said this.

TIA

I'm sorry. I'm just seeing this now. I read it here, I'm sure, and I don't think it was presented as opinion. I will go look for a link. :)


eta: this link talks about "friends" and doesn't distinguish between friends and girlfriends. Not sure if there is a statement that is more specific, but I'll keep looking.

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2012/03/30/latest-news-trayvon-martin-case-what-you-need-know

MsCharlieChan
04-14-2012, 05:19 PM
The "no snitching" code is for those involved in criminal activity or in a situation where there is a high possibility of retaliation if it's found out that you told the police something.

That unwritten rule is pretty much squashed when it hits close to home. A person losing a loved one is expected to retaliate or want justice.

Organized crime families such as the Mafia, street gangs, everybody in prison, and most street criminals of all ethnicities would probably abide by that.

It's not just Black kids or teens as someone suggested upthread. And it would not apply in a situation where a loved one is hurt or dying and calling 911 would save them.

You might be referring to my comment up-thread about black youths, the mob, and "various cultures" having some version of "no snitching" aka "ratting." If you thought I was limiting this to blacks only, that's not what I said.

FYI... Not "everyone" sets aside "no snitch" and speaks with the authorities, making an exemption when a loved one has been harmed:

>> Some go under cover and take matters into their own hands.

>> Some are scared to death to speak up, even if it's their family member or loved one who has been harmed.

Here's a report that says TM girl fell into the 2nd category:


"Trayvon's girlfriend just wants justice, period. She was extremely fearful of the Sanford Police Department and was scared of retaliation for cooperating with the investigators.

Read more: <mod snip>

PS Did you see "The Departed," where the mother of the "industrial thief" refuses to talk to the cops about who may have killed her son? She looks over and sees Jack Nicholson's gangster character eying her from across the street. Clamming up in fear, the mom decides, "Well, he must have done something wrong!" and slams the door in the cops' faces.

I'm sure Trayvon's girlfriend didn't really think he was dead. Beyond that, once you realize God-knows-what really did happen, you have to worry about flapping your gums these days.

Adrienne37
04-14-2012, 05:20 PM
I wanted to share with you all an incident that happened to my family and I this morning. This is in line with the discussion about why Tracy didn't know or realize that Trayvon was not home. I know we have discussed extensively with opinions back and forth about why Tracy didn't do anything once he realized that Trayvon came home that night. Well, what I'm about to share will hopefully help some understand the way it seems to be when you are dealing with a teenage son. My youngest daughter's ex-boyfriend's (whom I shall call John who is 16) mother called me about 1 p.m. this afternoon asking if I had seen or heard from John. My daughter came out of her room when she heard me on the phone and came out to tell me that John's mother had just contacted her right before calling the house. I asked her to tell me a little about what was going on so she said she had allowed John to stay in town last night until she got off from her job until about roughly 9 or 9:30 last night. She said when she got there to pick him up at Burger King, he wasn't there. She said she really didn't think anything of it because he could have ended up getting a ride home instead. She went home thinking that he would be home most anytime. She said she fell asleep and didn't realize until this morning that he had never come home last night and had never called. He didn't have his own cell phone and had to use the family cell phone so she proceeded to start going through all the numbers on the phone looking for anything she could find in hopes of tracking him down. She was concerned rightly so but she wasn't panicked. In fact, I was probably more upset than she was about it. Anyway, we just heard about an hour ago that John has made it home, he had decided to spend the night with his friend and hadn't even thought that his mom would be worried. Thankfully there was a happy ending to this story and yes, had he been my son, he'd be on restriction for the rest of his life. She told me a little while ago that she had been through that before with John's older brother and that was the reason she wasn't panicked. I told her it scared me to death, all I could think of was him missing, having to come to Websleuths to start a thread on him, and had convinced myself (especially after Trayvon's case) that the worst had happened. My daughter, on the other hand, couldn't understand why I was worried sick, she was really laid back about the whole situation and that it really wasn't a big deal. Sorry my story is rambling but I wanted to put it out there that it appears sometimes boys are just going to be boys.




~Jmo~

jjenny
04-14-2012, 05:21 PM
So why didn't Zimmerman call 911 after shooting Trayvon? Why did he not attempt CPR? Why did it take a concerned neighbor asking Zimmerman at least twice if everything was ok before Zimmerman told them to just call 911?

All of the talk about what the girlfriend didn't do, such as call 911 herself, when not much is being said about what Zimmerman didn't do after shooting Trayvon. Zimmerman was right there, used his gun, knew that Trayvon had been shot and still did not attempt to help him.

I suppose that a 15/16 year old girl in another town miles away is supposed to act like a responsible adult and do the "right thing", however a 28 year old man is allowed to do nothing when he was the one that killed a person.

MOO

He claims to have killed this person in self-defense. He clearly also knew people were calling 911 and he asked people to call 911.

Nova
04-14-2012, 05:23 PM
"They" would be black inner-city youths.

But I believe it's a "street code of silence" that mimics the mob culture. The mob hates what they call a "rat" -- as in "ratting" on someone.

Telling the authorities is a no-no and can put you and your family in danger in different cultures.

In addition to the cultural stigma of being a "rat" (common to many groups, but particularly minorities and not just African Americans, BTW), there is the danger of simply being noticed by members of LE who regularly frame African Americans. The Rampart scandal in Los Angeles showed the danger of black people "becoming known" to white copes.

Better to stay off the radar by not volunteering info. It's unfortunate, but there are historical reasons for this attitude.

Emma Peel
04-14-2012, 05:24 PM
:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead: :banghead:


Now I use the above "head-banger" icon for a reason...GZ was a VERY busy man in the hours after his severe PTSD and "close to diapers & spoonfeeding" incident, as the shooting death of Trayvon has been described by folks SPEAKING FOR George. IIRC, he's released from the police station and ventures homeward, then SOMETIME during business hours (see article above) he chats with boss.
AND it has been claimed that he ALSO received medical attention (no link, RZ & RZ,Jr.'s comments discussed ad nauseaum) SOMETIME during the SAME 24 hour period. JMO, but if he were at a large municipal ER/ED, COUNT on an extended wait "for service" UNLESS he used "red-flag" terminology (nope, I will NOT comment!).
AND he & the Mrs. packed up & "Zimmerman and his wife moved out of the townhouse they rented in the Twin Lakes complex almost immediately, Oliver said" (see link in Tori's comment).

:moo: Sorry folks but IMHO as SOMEONE who HAS BEEN diagnosed & treated professionally for injuries that occurred in the manner (got "decked" by a family member who didn't like my courtroom testimony in a child abuse/homicide case!) as described by GZ, ability to carry off all of those behaviors above isn't present WITHOUT some wicked bad nausea, headache(s)!, sensitivity to motion (like moving one's head!) & light, vomiting from the swallowed blood, "wooziness" and some fantastic "air walking" from the pain meds!
OH YEAH, as an afterthought..........the responding EMT/paramedics DID NOT "clean & polish or iron" my damaged/bloody/soiled crisp white blouse & business suit~getting pummeled on cement isn't good for clothing fibers, pantyhose or leather heels, either!
AGAIN, stated as my humble opinion (IMHO) & experience (JME), no link 'cause the perp pled guilty to a misdemeanor. :what::what::what:

:maddening: SO....GZ's "team" should have/better have/ought to have some hardcore, hardcopy documents to bolster his story....and I do not want to see a "doctored" x-ray/MRI/CATor PETscan nor "modified" HCP chart notes. :rocker:

lol!
joypath be back. :D

yup, he'd better have some medical records, and joypath will demand they be doc-dumped in her lappie. :yes:

Nova
04-14-2012, 05:26 PM
I don't think discussing the GF's actions concerning the phone calls is bashing her at all. I think everything concerning that call will be very big part of the case when it goes to trial.

Who, what and when she told others about call could play into reasonable doubt. Just because the call matchs up with the time line doesn't prove what was being discussed.

Not that I think she is lying but I could see a defense questioning it. I also think a reasonable jury member is going to want to be assured that what she said was on that call was the truth and not what someone suggested she say after details of the incident became public.

So hopefully she told someone early on the details of the call before all the media hype started.

There's discussing it (relevant, I agree) and then there are the repeated assertions that everything the girlfriend did was suspicious. And not just suspicious to her, but to TM as well.

ladonna
04-14-2012, 05:29 PM
Does anyone still have that AT&T record of the phone call that also includes one from March 2nd. I saw it here a little while ago and now I can't find it.

Nova
04-14-2012, 05:33 PM
For those judging this 16 year old girl and her actions after Trayvon's murder, I want to share a personal story.

I was dating someone a few years ago and one night he called me and told me that he had just killed his ex gf. We spoke for a few minutes and then he ended the call. I was in so much shock that I sat home alone for HOURS in silence. I had no idea what to do. It wasn't until I saw on the news later in the afternoon that he had ultimately killed himself that I managed to call my sister. I could have called the police after my phone call with him ended and I did not. I literally did not know what to do. Maybe if I had called the police they could have found him before he killed himself? I didn't know he was going to kill himself.

I was 29 years old at the time. An adult. I take great offense to those judging this 16 year olds actions when we don't know what she did or did not do after that phone call dropped.

MOO

I am so sorry he put you in that position. I hope you'll consider that his calling you was one more malicious act on his part, and forgive yourself for not knowing what to do.

Karmady
04-14-2012, 05:34 PM
[quote=mercuriod;7789258]As for her name the only thing that has been released the name Dee-Dee, as for a photo, yes one has been released of her and Trayvon it is photo # 2 in this series :

<mod snip>

Thanks, I had no idea there was a photo of her out there. I wonder why. I though they were protecting her identity. I thought that was a very good idea. Also, this says she is 17. Is that true? I thought she was younger.

Reader
04-14-2012, 05:39 PM
Attorney: Zimmerman "stressed" about charges in Trayvon Martin case

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/13/justic...html?hpt=hp_t3

.......

"I think he's stressed. He's certainly nervous," O'Mara said of Zimmerman. "He is frustrated he was charged at all."

On Thursday, a Seminole County judge found probable cause to move forward with the case and set a May 29 arraignment.
------

Also Friday, the judge assigned to the case, Jessica Recksiedler, said she would entertain motions to disqualify herself from the trial after discovering that her husband works with Mark NeJame, an attorney whom Zimmerman approached about representing him and has since widely commented on the case in the media. NeJame also is a CNN contributor.

O'Mara said the association might become "more and more problematic" given the intense scrutiny the case is receiving.

Recksiedler said she would prefer any such request be filed before Zimmerman's bond hearing.
---------

A member of the U.S. Civil Rights Commission, meanwhile, said Friday that he will ask the agency to investigate state "stand your ground" laws, such as Florida's, that allow people to use deadly force if they feel a reasonable threat of death or serious injury.

"The Trayvon Martin case has raised serious and disturbing questions over whether these statutes allow an unacceptable component of racial bias into our justice system," Commissioner Michael Yaki said. "Allegations that shooters like George Zimmerman may have 'profiled' their victims based on their race and that 'stand your ground laws' improperly protect race-motivated killings needs review."

More at link...

grandmaj
04-14-2012, 05:39 PM
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168920&page=5

I have posted a thorough review of the allegation that the girl waited 3 weeks to make any report. See the post above.

The Moderators have given much leeway to discuss this allegation. At this point it is time to move on because the MSM facts, do not back up the allegation.

We are asking that you treat this child as a victim, not make wild accusations about her or her motivations unless you can back it up. You can question the truth in what she is saying and you can discuss how it may look or be challenged in court. But the personal characterizations and discussions about this minor are not allowed. She is a victim.

TorisMom003
04-14-2012, 05:44 PM
He claims to have killed this person in self-defense. He clearly also knew people were calling 911 and he asked people to call 911.

So killing a person in self defense (if that is what really happened) means that you do not have to do anything at all to help the person that you just shot? I also do not believe that he clearly knew people were calling 911 already. The person he finally asked to call 911 had to speak to him at least twice before getting a reply.

MOO

RANCH
04-14-2012, 05:47 PM
Does anyone still have that AT&T record of the phone call that also includes one from March 2nd. I saw it here a little while ago and now I can't find it.

I think that your talking about the photo of the T-Mobile bill.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-arrest-now-abc-reveals-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T4nvaNWNnJd

Karmady
04-14-2012, 05:48 PM
I did not see your question earlier. Sorry! Trayvon's statements as relayed by his girlfriend would come in under 90.804 (1) (d): Is unable to be present or to testify at the hearing because of death or because of then-existing physical or mental illness or infirmity; BBM
http://www.flsenate.gov/laws/statutes/2011/90.804

This is not a federal rule, it's a state rule. It is also not a dying declaration exception, which is different. It is a declarant unavailable (due to death) exception. Dying declaration is someone's last words which is an alternate exception in some states where the "declarant unavailable" exception does not exist. Both are used in Florida.

Trayvon's statements to his girlfriend come in.

Thanks for responding. No need to apologize. I know this isn't your FT job lol. I do know it's the correct state rule and the one that applies in this case, but as I read it, only the exceptions in 2(a)-(e) apply when the declarant is unavailable due to death, with unavailability being defined in Paragraph 1 to include death.

This part, bbm/ibm~

(2) HEARSAY EXCEPTIONS.—The following are not excluded under s. 90.802, provided that the declarant is unavailable as a witness:(a) Former testimony.—Testimony given as a witness at another hearing of the same or a different proceeding, or in a deposition taken in compliance with law in the course of the same or another proceeding, if the party against whom the testimony is now offered, or, in a civil action or proceeding, a predecessor in interest, had an opportunity and similar motive to develop the testimony by direct, cross, or redirect examination.
(b) Statement under belief of impending death.—In a civil or criminal trial, a statement made by a declarant while reasonably believing that his or her death was imminent, concerning the physical cause or instrumentalities of what the declarant believed to be impending death or the circumstances surrounding impending death.
(c) Statement against interest.—A statement which, at the time of its making, was so far contrary to the declarant’s pecuniary or proprietary interest or tended to subject the declarant to liability or to render invalid a claim by the declarant against another, so that a person in the declarant’s position would not have made the statement unless he or she believed it to be true. A statement tending to expose the declarant to criminal liability and offered to exculpate the accused is inadmissible, unless corroborating circumstances show the trustworthiness of the statement.
(d) Statement of personal or family history.—A statement concerning the declarant’s own birth, adoption, marriage, divorce, parentage, ancestry, or other similar fact of personal or family history, including relationship by blood, adoption, or marriage, even though the declarant had no means of acquiring personal knowledge of the matter stated.
(e) Statement by deceased or ill declarant similar to one previously admitted.—In an action or proceeding brought against the personal representative, heir at law, assignee, legatee, devisee, or survivor of a deceased person, or against a trustee of a trust created by a deceased person, or against the assignee, committee, or guardian of a mentally incompetent person, when a declarant is unavailable as provided in paragraph (1)(d), a written or oral statement made regarding the same subject matter as another statement made by the declarant that has previously been offered by an adverse party and admitted in evidence.

2(b) is the statement under belief of impending death.

And it is (e) that I think is narrower than the Federal Rules in a material way.

Am I reading it wrong? I think only the 2(a)-(e) exceptions apply even when the witness is unavailable due to death. In other words, the whole hearsay rule doesn't go out the window. Instead, limited exceptions are made only to the extent that there are otherwise sufficient indicia of reliability.

TIA!

octobermoon
04-14-2012, 05:50 PM
Thank you Grandmaj. :)

Ada
04-14-2012, 06:02 PM
Trayvon Martin’s father says he warned son..


Years before the killing of Trayvon Martin grabbed the nation’s attention, the teen’s father warned him that his race could make him a target of violence.

The advice Tracy Martin gave his black son, that people veiled by racism and prejudices might see him as suspicious or violent, is a common and continuous warning in many black families, parents and experts say. In the aftermath of Trayvon’s death, more families are having “the talk,” teaching sons to be aware of their race, avoid confrontations with authority figures, and to remain calm in situations even if their rights are violated.

“I’ve always let him know we as African Americans get stereotyped,” Tracy Martin, Trayvon’s father told USA TODAY three weeks after his son’s death. “I told him that society is cruel.”

http://tucsoncitizen.com/usa-today-n...he-warned-son/

This makes me so sad. I've seen it and it's real. Very sad that any child should have to grow up with this hanging over his shoulder. Horrible.

grandmaj
04-14-2012, 06:08 PM
Please guys.........no blog links and absolutely no posting of links to minor pictures. Stick to MSM Links.....

jjenny
04-14-2012, 06:11 PM
So killing a person in self defense (if that is what really happened) means that you do not have to do anything at all to help the person that you just shot? I also do not believe that he clearly knew people were calling 911 already. The person he finally asked to call 911 had to speak to him at least twice before getting a reply.

MOO

If somebody attacked me I would not be in a helpful mood. And he claims he was attacked.

Trapshooter
04-14-2012, 06:14 PM
Here you go.

http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-04/69353440.pdf

Thank you SO much Adrienne37!!!

ladonna
04-14-2012, 06:15 PM
I was suprised to say the least that Crump hired a publicist for this case.

Crump and the pro-bono publicist he brought on, Ryan Julison, crafted a media strategy to make the story national. Reuters reported first, then CBS News.
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/14/2748102_p2/trayvons-parents-find-purpose.html#storylink=cpy

TorisMom003
04-14-2012, 06:16 PM
If somebody attacked me I would not be in a helpful mood. And he claims he was attacked.

And there is that big word, even with only two letters it really means so much.......IF. At this point in time we have nothing that proves what Zimmerman said was true. There is no evidence yet that proves that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman other than asking him "why are you following me?". If that is an attack then more people would be shot dead.

Even IF Trayvon attacked Zimmerman why didn't Zimmerman do what has come so natural to him in the past? Why didn't he call 911 himself and request an ambulance? If not for Trayvon, why not for himself?

I think that will be a huge sticking point for the jury. The fact that Zimmerman did not call 911 and request medical attention for himself points to his story about being attacked, beaten, nose broken and having his head bashed into the sidewalk being just that......a story.

MOO

jjenny
04-14-2012, 06:18 PM
And there is that big word, even with only two letters it really means so much.......IF. At this point in time we have nothing that proves what Zimmerman said was true. There is no evidence yet that proves that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman other than asking him "why are you following me?". If that is an attack then more people would be shot dead.

Even IF Trayvon attacked Zimmerman why didn't Zimmerman do what has come so natural to him in the past? Why didn't he call 911 himself and request an ambulance? If not for Trayvon, why not for himself?

I think that will be a huge sticking point for the jury. The fact that Zimmerman did not call 911 and request medical attention for himself points to his story about being attacked, beaten, nose broken and having his head bashed into the sidewalk being just that......a story.

MOO

Well, I am sorry, but because of SYG it works the other way. Prosecutor will need evidence that Zimmerman did not act in self-defense. Not the other way around.

jjenny
04-14-2012, 06:19 PM
I was suprised to say the least that Crump hired a publicist for this case.

Crump and the pro-bono publicist he brought on, Ryan Julison, crafted a media strategy to make the story national. Reuters reported first, then CBS News.
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/14/2748102_p2/trayvons-parents-find-purpose.html#storylink=cpy

Why is that surprising? I think it's rather obvious the reason Zimmerman was arrested is because of public pressure.

TorisMom003
04-14-2012, 06:20 PM
Well, I am sorry, but because of SYG it works the other way. Prosecutor will need evidence that Zimmerman did not act in self-defense. Not the other way around.

Based on the conversation the past thread or so I would say that it has been proven that is not the case. I remember reading numerous posts saying that the defense will be the one that has to prove that Zimmerman acted in self-defense.

MOO

Isabelle
04-14-2012, 06:20 PM
Attorney: Zimmerman "stressed" about charges in Trayvon Martin case

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/13/justic...html?hpt=hp_t3

.......

"I think he's stressed. He's certainly nervous," O'Mara said of Zimmerman. "He is frustrated he was charged at all."

On Thursday, a Seminole County judge found probable cause to move forward with the case and set a May 29 arraignment.
------

Also Friday, the judge assigned to the case, Jessica Recksiedler, said she would entertain motions to disqualify herself from the trial after discovering that her husband works with Mark NeJame, an attorney whom Zimmerman approached about representing him and has since widely commented on the case in the media. NeJame also is a CNN contributor.

O'Mara said the association might become "more and more problematic" given the intense scrutiny the case is receiving.

Recksiedler said she would prefer any such request be filed before Zimmerman's bond hearing.
---------

A member of the U.S. Civil Rights Commission, meanwhile, said Friday that he will ask the agency to investigate state "stand your ground" laws, such as Florida's, that allow people to use deadly force if they feel a reasonable threat of death or serious injury.

"The Trayvon Martin case has raised serious and disturbing questions over whether these statutes allow an unacceptable component of racial bias into our justice system," Commissioner Michael Yaki said. "Allegations that shooters like George Zimmerman may have 'profiled' their victims based on their race and that 'stand your ground laws' improperly protect race-motivated killings needs review."

More at link...

Frustrated!? Really!? Think George has any inkling about just how frustrated Trayvon's parents are and will be for the rest of their life. Losing a child is like living the rest of your life in a box that you cannot get out of. No matter what you do, you can't fix it. That's real frustration!

ETA: Poor George, thought he got off scott free!

Nova
04-14-2012, 06:20 PM
I was suprised to say the least that Crump hired a publicist for this case.

Crump and the pro-bono publicist he brought on, Ryan Julison, crafted a media strategy to make the story national. Reuters reported first, then CBS News.
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/14/2748102_p2/trayvons-parents-find-purpose.html#storylink=cpy

Why surprised? It took a great deal of p.r. to get enough national attention to Trayvon Martin's story that the Florida attorney general was forced to take action.

jjenny
04-14-2012, 06:21 PM
Based on the conversation the past thread or so I would say that it has been proven that is not the case. I remember reading numerous posts saying that the defense will be the one that has to prove that Zimmerman acted in self-defense.

MOO

Nope, that is not correct. Prosecution will have to prove at trial Zimmerman did not act in self-defense.

MsCharlieChan
04-14-2012, 06:23 PM
Agree @Adrienne. TM looks so cute and astute in those glasses. I'm on the brink of tears looking at that entire photo album.

<no blog links mod snip>

It was dead wrong to take his boy's life. :jail:

Trapshooter
04-14-2012, 06:24 PM
To kinda change the subject from the girlfriend, I just have to ask y'all......is Frank Taafe getting on everyone's nerves like he is mine? :banghead:

Every time he is on Nancy Grace, I just want to throttle him! lol Did y'all hear him the other night when he mentioned "myself and my constituents?" LOL His constituents? Nancy nailed him on that one, she said she didn't know he held a political office!

ladonna
04-14-2012, 06:25 PM
Why is that surprising? I think it's rather obvious the reason Zimmerman was arrested is because of public pressure.

I realize that. Now I know why it garnered the attention it did. I have never heard of a publicist being hired to promote a death before.

IzzyBlanche
04-14-2012, 06:27 PM
I realize that. Now I know why it garnered the attention it did. I have never heard of a publicist being hired to promote a death before.

Promote a death? :what:

IMO he was promoting an investigation into a death. An investigation that many felt had not been done.

Nova
04-14-2012, 06:29 PM
Why is that surprising? I think it's rather obvious the reason Zimmerman was arrested is because of public pressure.

Yeah, they arrested the adult with the semi-automatic pistol who followed and killed the unarmed teenager. Must have been "public pressure."

No, the public pressure merely forced Florida authorities to treat the case as if the victim were a human being.

jjenny
04-14-2012, 06:30 PM
Promote a death? :what:

IMO he was promoting an investigation into a death. An investigation that many felt had not been done.

Even if the investigation was done, I am not so sure it should have resulted in an arrest and a charge. For prosecution to convict Zimmerman, they will have to prove Zimmerman did not act in self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. And I don't see anything in that arrest affidavit that indicates prosecution got the evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not act in self-defense.

"The moment George Zimmerman fired that shot is the key question in this entire case," Hornsby said. "Did he reasonably believe he had to fire that shot to defend himself? And the fact (Corey) completely left that out, begs the question, does she not have any evidence to refute his version of the events?"
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57414081/strength-of-case-against-zimmerman-questioned/?tag=stack

raeann
04-14-2012, 06:31 PM
I realize that. Now I know why it garnered the attention it did. I have never heard of a publicist being hired to promote a death before.

The publicist and attorney were NEVER promoting a death, they were promoting the need for the justice system to be allowed to deal with this case as is required by law.

ladonna
04-14-2012, 06:32 PM
Promote a death? :what:

IMO he was promoting an investigation into a death. An investigation that many felt had not been done.

Poor choice of wording on my part.

Nova
04-14-2012, 06:32 PM
Based on the conversation the past thread or so I would say that it has been proven that is not the case. I remember reading numerous posts saying that the defense will be the one that has to prove that Zimmerman acted in self-defense.

MOO

I think both claims are true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law#Florida


There is a requirement in the statute that the State's Attorney show probable cause that an SYG defense does not apply. And I understand a special hearing is held to determine that. (Of course, "probable cause" is required in most jurisdictions to bring anybody to trial. Florida's SYG law just makes the process of showing probable cause a little more formal with regard to one element of a crime.)

If the State passes that hurdle, then SYG becomes an affirmative defense and I believe you are right that the burden of proof shifts to the defendant.

IANAL.

rbrnmw2
04-14-2012, 06:33 PM
My parents could always find me in my teen years by following the phone cord from the wall to where I was hiding (closet/bathroom, etc) talking on the phone so my brother wouldn't eavesdrop. LOL Gosh I am old. :)
I remember talking to my first love in much the same way
He lived in another town and spent lots of my paper route money on phone bills and payphones


Sent from my PantechP9060 using Tapatalk

Adrienne37
04-14-2012, 06:34 PM
To kinda change the subject from the girlfriend, I just have to ask y'all......is Frank Taafe getting on everyone's nerves like he is mine? :banghead:

Every time he is on Nancy Grace, I just want to throttle him! lol Did y'all hear him the other night when he mentioned "myself and my constituents?" LOL His constituents? Nancy nailed him on that one, she said she didn't know he held a political office!

I've prayed every night for him to go on Lawrence O'Donnell's show. I'd be willing to pay for that if it were on pay-per-view. That would totally make my day!


~jmo~

Nova
04-14-2012, 06:34 PM
Nope, that is not correct. Prosecution will have to prove at trial Zimmerman did not act in self-defense.

I think you're wrong (once the case gets to trial), although the prosecutor may choose to present evidence to that effect. Would you like to support your assertion?

jjenny
04-14-2012, 06:35 PM
I think both claims are true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law#Florida


There is a requirement in the statute that the State's Attorney show probable cause that an SYG defense does not apply. And I understand a special hearing is held to determine that. (Of course, "probable cause" is required in most jurisdictions to bring anybody to trial. Florida's SYG law just makes the process of showing probable cause a little more formal with regard to one element of a crime.)

If the State passes that hurdle, then SYG becomes an affirmative defense and I believe you are right that the burden of proof shifts to the defendant.

IANAL.

No, that is not correct. The burden of proof at trial will be on the prosecution.
Zimmerman can request a hearing from a judge before trial in which Zimmerman will have to present preponderance of the evidence that this was self-defense. If the judge doesn't think Zimmerman presented preponderance of the evidence the case will go to trial. The burden of proof at trial is on the prosecution. They will have to prove Zimmerman did not act in self-defense.

Nova
04-14-2012, 06:35 PM
To kinda change the subject from the girlfriend, I just have to ask y'all......is Frank Taafe getting on everyone's nerves like he is mine? :banghead:

Every time he is on Nancy Grace, I just want to throttle him! lol Did y'all hear him the other night when he mentioned "myself and my constituents?" LOL His constituents? Nancy nailed him on that one, she said she didn't know he held a political office!

Yes. I've stopped watching any program where he appears.

Adrienne37
04-14-2012, 06:35 PM
Based on the conversation the past thread or so I would say that it has been proven that is not the case. I remember reading numerous posts saying that the defense will be the one that has to prove that Zimmerman acted in self-defense.

MOO

I know, I seem to recall numerous posts by Gitana1 and Beach that laid out exactly how this work. It's really a very simple process.


~jmo~

jjenny
04-14-2012, 06:36 PM
I think you're wrong (once the case gets to trial), although the prosecutor may choose to present evidence to that effect. Would you like to support your assertion?

I've already posted links.
Here is one with quotes from Richard Hornsby. I really hope his stops by here and explains it once and for all.

"The moment George Zimmerman fired that shot is the key question in this entire case," Hornsby said. "Did he reasonably believe he had to fire that shot to defend himself? And the fact (Corey) completely left that out, begs the question, does she not have any evidence to refute his version of the events?"

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57414081/strength-of-case-against-zimmerman-questioned/?tag=stack

jjenny
04-14-2012, 06:37 PM
I know, I seem to recall numerous posts by Gitana1 and Beach that laid out exactly how this work. It's really a very simple process.


~jmo~

It is a simple process and the burden of proof is on the prosecution if it gets to trial.

Reader
04-14-2012, 06:38 PM
Well, I am sorry, but because of SYG it works the other way. Prosecutor will need evidence that Zimmerman did not act in self-defense. Not the other way around.

According to this link, it's the defense that has the burden of proof:

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/11/whats-happens-now-that-zimmerman-is-charged-in-trayvon-martin-death/?hpt=hp_t1


Step 5 – Defense files a motion to dismiss based on Florida's “stand your ground” law

•If Zimmerman is charged, he is entitled to a pre-trial evidentiary hearing on whether he is entitled to the immunity based on the law.

•The burden at that hearing is on the defense to prove by “a preponderance of the evidence” (more likely than not) that Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force.

Nova
04-14-2012, 06:40 PM
Even if the investigation was done, I am not so sure it should have resulted in an arrest and a charge. For prosecution to convict Zimmerman, they will have to prove Zimmerman did not act in self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. And I don't see anything in that arrest affidavit that indicates prosecution got the evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not act in self-defense.

"The moment George Zimmerman fired that shot is the key question in this entire case," Hornsby said. "Did he reasonably believe he had to fire that shot to defend himself? And the fact (Corey) completely left that out, begs the question, does she not have any evidence to refute his version of the events?"....

I can't find language in Florida's SYG statute that makes it different from any other affirmative defense once the case gets to trial. (As mentioned before, there is a probable cause hurdle to clear before trial begins, but the standard is NOT "proof beyond a reasonable doubt".)

Affirmative defense - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Because an affirmative defense requires an assertion of facts beyond those claimed by the plaintiff, generally the party who offers an affirmative defense bears the burden of proof. The standard of proof is typically lower than beyond a reasonable doubt. It can either be proved by clear and convincing evidence or by a preponderance of the evidence.

jjenny
04-14-2012, 06:41 PM
According to this link, it's the defense that has the burden of proof:

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/11/whats-happens-now-that-zimmerman-is-charged-in-trayvon-martin-death/?hpt=hp_t1


Step 5 – Defense files a motion to dismiss based on Florida's “stand your ground” law

•If Zimmerman is charged, he is entitled to a pre-trial evidentiary hearing on whether he is entitled to the immunity based on the law.

•The burden at that hearing is on the defense to prove by “a preponderance of the evidence” (more likely than not) that Zimmerman was justified in using deadly force.

You are talking about a different thing. Zimmerman can request a hearing where he has a burden of proof by preponderance of evidence. If judge doesn't feel Zimmerman has met his burden of proof the case will go to trial, in which prosecution will have the burden of proof. This hearing is an extra protection for Zimmerman and the judge can find Zimmerman immune from prosecution if Zimmerman meets his burden of proof there. But it's not a trial.

Isabelle
04-14-2012, 06:42 PM
Even if the investigation was done, I am not so sure it should have resulted in an arrest and a charge. For prosecution to convict Zimmerman, they will have to prove Zimmerman did not act in self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. And I don't see anything in that arrest affidavit that indicates prosecution got the evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not act in self-defense.

"The moment George Zimmerman fired that shot is the key question in this entire case," Hornsby said. "Did he reasonably believe he had to fire that shot to defend himself? And the fact (Corey) completely left that out, begs the question, does she not have any evidence to refute his version of the events?"
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57414081/strength-of-case-against-zimmerman-questioned/?tag=stack

Fine, since Trayvon can't speak for himself, it is just that GZ have the opportunity to tell the nation why he acted in the manner he did that resulted in the death of an unarmed teenager. GZ owes us an explanation and we are gonna get it!

katydid23
04-14-2012, 06:43 PM
I wanted to share with you all an incident that happened to my family and I this morning. This is in line with the discussion about why Tracy didn't know or realize that Trayvon was not home. I know we have discussed extensively with opinions back and forth about why Tracy didn't do anything once he realized that Trayvon came home that night. Well, what I'm about to share will hopefully help some understand the way it seems to be when you are dealing with a teenage son. My youngest daughter's ex-boyfriend's (whom I shall call John who is 16) mother called me about 1 p.m. this afternoon asking if I had seen or heard from John. My daughter came out of her room when she heard me on the phone and came out to tell me that John's mother had just contacted her right before calling the house. I asked her to tell me a little about what was going on so she said she had allowed John to stay in town last night until she got off from her job until about roughly 9 or 9:30 last night. She said when she got there to pick him up at Burger King, he wasn't there. She said she really didn't think anything of it because he could have ended up getting a ride home instead. She went home thinking that he would be home most anytime. She said she fell asleep and didn't realize until this morning that he had never come home last night and had never called. He didn't have his own cell phone and had to use the family cell phone so she proceeded to start going through all the numbers on the phone looking for anything she could find in hopes of tracking him down. She was concerned rightly so but she wasn't panicked. In fact, I was probably more upset than she was about it. Anyway, we just heard about an hour ago that John has made it home, he had decided to spend the night with his friend and hadn't even thought that his mom would be worried. Thankfully there was a happy ending to this story and yes, had he been my son, he'd be on restriction for the rest of his life. She told me a little while ago that she had been through that before with John's older brother and that was the reason she wasn't panicked. I told her it scared me to death, all I could think of was him missing, having to come to Websleuths to start a thread on him, and had convinced myself (especially after Trayvon's case) that the worst had happened. My daughter, on the other hand, couldn't understand why I was worried sick, she was really laid back about the whole situation and that it really wasn't a big deal. Sorry my story is rambling but I wanted to put it out there that it appears sometimes boys are just going to be boys.




~Jmo~

I totally agree with you. Chit happens. I think the only reason people question TM's dad that night is because that very day Trayvon was suspended for 10 days and for the third time. So some might wonder why the kid was even allowed out the door that night. And why dad just assumed he went to the movies. He was suspended that day and they had no problem with him going off to the movies, with out asking or telling anyone, after telling his kid brother he was going off to get him candy? I am not bashing, just explaining why some might wonder about it. If my 17 yr old says I am coming right back with candy, and I am just walking to the store, then I don't go to bed assuming everything is fine, if he never comes back that night. I know a few people will yell at me for asking these questions, but I am responding to a post in which the questions were already asked.

Your friends son was in his own hometown, so it made more sense that he had found a ride with a friend somewhere. And he wasnt grounded.

Isabelle
04-14-2012, 06:44 PM
Why is that surprising? I think it's rather obvious the reason Zimmerman was arrested is because of public pressure.

And its about time the public starts putting on the pressure. I think we'll see it happening more and more from now on. Glad about it too!

jjenny
04-14-2012, 06:45 PM
I can't find language in Florida's SYG statute that makes it different from any other affirmative defense once the case gets to trial. (As mentioned before, there is a probable cause hurdle to clear before trial begins, but the standard is NOT "proof beyond a reasonable doubt".)

Affirmative defense - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_defense)

There is a blog that explains it really well but apparently it can not be linked to.
But prosecution will have burden of proof, not the other way around, if this gets to trial.

"Then the burden would be on prosecutors to prove Zimmerman is guilty “beyond a reasonable doubt” — a tougher standard than preponderance of the evidence."

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/defense_taking_stand_Hsd7TZOxwWPTLoctw71izM#ixzz1s 3dENyVL

jjenny
04-14-2012, 06:45 PM
And its about time the public starts putting on the pressure. I think we'll see it happening more and more from now on. Glad about it too!

And if defendant isn't guilty? Is that good too?

octobermoon
04-14-2012, 06:46 PM
To kinda change the subject from the girlfriend, I just have to ask y'all......is Frank Taafe getting on everyone's nerves like he is mine? :banghead:

Every time he is on Nancy Grace, I just want to throttle him! lol Did y'all hear him the other night when he mentioned "myself and my constituents?" LOL His constituents? Nancy nailed him on that one, she said she didn't know he held a political office!

I am a skeered Frank and Lenny P are going to go on tour ;)

Nova
04-14-2012, 06:46 PM
I've already posted links.
Here is one with quotes from Richard Hornsby. I really hope his stops by here and explains it once and for all.

"The moment George Zimmerman fired that shot is the key question in this entire case," Hornsby said. "Did he reasonably believe he had to fire that shot to defend himself? And the fact (Corey) completely left that out, begs the question, does she not have any evidence to refute his version of the events?"

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57414081/strength-of-case-against-zimmerman-questioned/?tag=stack

With all due respect, that link does not say what you have asserted it says. Yes, Hornsby is quoted as questioning the SA's failure to address the SYG issue; it does not address burden of proof in an affirmative defense.

We may expect a criminal defense attorney to argue that the defendant's word should be taken as fact unless clearly contradicted, but a prosecutor will just as certainly argue otherwise.

Isabelle
04-14-2012, 06:46 PM
I think you're wrong (once the case gets to trial), although the prosecutor may choose to present evidence to that effect. Would you like to support your assertion?

I believe JJenny is wrong also.

Isabelle
04-14-2012, 06:47 PM
I am a skeered Frank and Lenny P are going to go on tour ;)

And maybe they gonna hook up with CA!

Karmady
04-14-2012, 06:47 PM
And there is that big word, even with only two letters it really means so much.......IF. At this point in time we have nothing that proves what Zimmerman said was true. There is no evidence yet that proves that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman other than asking him "why are you following me?". If that is an attack then more people would be shot dead.

Even IF Trayvon attacked Zimmerman why didn't Zimmerman do what has come so natural to him in the past? Why didn't he call 911 himself and request an ambulance? If not for Trayvon, why not for himself?

I think that will be a huge sticking point for the jury. The fact that Zimmerman did not call 911 and request medical attention for himself points to his story about being attacked, beaten, nose broken and having his head bashed into the sidewalk being just that......a story.

MOO

Hadn't he already called 911 twice? Didn't the police arrive at the scene within minutes or less of when the shot was fired? Honestly, when I first heard that witness saying he asked her to call 911 I asked myself why he would to that. SPD was already well on their way.

jjenny
04-14-2012, 06:47 PM
I believe JJenny is wrong also.

Well I believe I am correct.
I've yet to see any link that says I am not. No one has provided any links that say burden of proof will be on Zimmerman if this gets to trial. The msm articles say burden of proof is on prosecution beyond a reasonable doubt.

Isabelle
04-14-2012, 06:48 PM
And if defendant isn't guilty? Is that good too?

It's up to the courts to decide.

jjenny
04-14-2012, 06:50 PM
With all due respect, that link does not say what you have asserted it says. Yes, Hornsby is quoted as questioning the SA's failure to address the SYG issue; it does not address burden of proof in an affirmative defense.

We may expect a criminal defense attorney to argue that the defendant's word should be taken as fact unless clearly contradicted, but a prosecutor will just as certainly argue otherwise.

With all do respect, that's how it works because of SYG in FL.

"That’s not the case in Florida, where a legal provision prohibits police from prosecuting and even arresting an individual who claims a “justifiable homicide” under the “stand your ground” law, Rolnick said. The burden of proof in Florida lies with the prosecution, she said."

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2012/apr/11/trayvon-martin-tragedy-reverberates-nevada/

IzzyBlanche
04-14-2012, 06:50 PM
Even if the investigation was done, I am not so sure it should have resulted in an arrest and a charge. For prosecution to convict Zimmerman, they will have to prove Zimmerman did not act in self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. And I don't see anything in that arrest affidavit that indicates prosecution got the evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did not act in self-defense.

"The moment George Zimmerman fired that shot is the key question in this entire case," Hornsby said. "Did he reasonably believe he had to fire that shot to defend himself? And the fact (Corey) completely left that out, begs the question, does she not have any evidence to refute his version of the events?"
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57414081/strength-of-case-against-zimmerman-questioned/?tag=stack

As has been stated here before, the prosecution does not have to lay out their entire case in the probable cause affidavit. Probable cause is just that, probable cause.

I believe she does have evidence to refute his version of events. Just because she didn't include it in the affidavit doesn't mean it doesn't exist. JMO.

jjenny
04-14-2012, 06:51 PM
It's up to the courts to decide.

So we should put a not guilty person on trial just because of public pressure? Is that what you are saying?

Elley Mae
04-14-2012, 06:51 PM
Affirmative defense - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.ohioverticals.com/blogs/akron_law_cafe/2012/04/zimmermans-low-burden-of-proof-on-the-issue-of-self-defense/

Angela Corey mentioned several times that self-defense is an "affirmative defense" under Florida law. She also said that "Stand Your Ground" is "a tough affirmative defense to overcome." It will be "tough" for the prosecution because although Zimmerman has to introduce some evidence that he acted in self-defense,

jjenny
04-14-2012, 06:52 PM
Affirmative defense - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_defense)

This really doesn't apply to this case because of SYG law in FL. The burden of proof in FL will be on the prosecution.

Nova
04-14-2012, 06:52 PM
There is a blog that explains it really well but apparently it can not be linked to.
But prosecution will have burden of proof, not the other way around, if this gets to trial.

"Then the burden would be on prosecutors to prove Zimmerman is guilty “beyond a reasonable doubt” — a tougher standard than preponderance of the evidence."

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/defense_taking_stand_Hsd7TZOxwWPTLoctw71izM#ixzz1s 3dENyVL

Let me grant you that the NY Post article does indeed say what you are asserting. I don't necessarily believe that is correct.

I admit I know about affirmative defenses under California law. The "justifiable homicide" defense mentioned in the Post article would be such a defense and the burden would fall on Zimmerman.

Let me see if I can find some reference to a Florida exception to that principle.

Reader
04-14-2012, 06:54 PM
You are talking about a different thing. Zimmerman can request a hearing where he has a burden of proof by preponderance of evidence. If judge doesn't feel Zimmerman has met his burden of proof the case will go to trial, in which prosecution will have the burden of proof. This hearing is an extra protection for Zimmerman and the judge can find Zimmerman immune from prosecution if Zimmerman meets his burden of proof there. But it's not a trial.

Well, true, it's not the same as the actual trial where the state has to prove he committed the crime of 2nd degree murder.

But, if GZ requests and has the hearing on SYG defense and loses and goes to trial, that defense is out and the prosecutor handles the trial as usual to prove the crime he is charged with. The prosecutor does not have to prove or disprove SYG in the trial because it is no longer an allowable defense.

annalia
04-14-2012, 06:54 PM
So we should put a not guilty person on trial just because of public pressure? Is that what you are saying?

How do you know he's not guilty?

Because he said so?

What else was he going to say other than it was all self defense? :waitasec:

Nova
04-14-2012, 06:55 PM
Hadn't he already called 911 twice? Didn't the police arrive at the scene within minutes or less of when the shot was fired? Honestly, when I first heard that witness saying he asked her to call 911 I asked myself why he would to that. SPD was already well on their way.

IIRC, he had called the SPD on their non-911 line. But regardless, he knew an ambulance was now needed, not just the police. He should have called back. (But I am open to the possibility that everything happened so fast that GZ wasn't able to collect his wits.)

Isabelle
04-14-2012, 06:56 PM
So we should put a not guilty person on trial just because of public pressure? Is that what you are saying?

How are you so sure there is no guilt here? What if GZ was truly guilty? I don't get what you are trying to say? Should we take GZ's word alone and be done with the case? No thorough investigation? What about the detective that wanted to arrest and charge GZ? So, you are saying, that anyone that kills another can can they did it in self defense and that should be the end of it. I don't think so!

ETA: the majority of those incarcerated will tell you that they are not guilty!

Isabelle
04-14-2012, 06:58 PM
IIRC, he had called the SPD on their non-911 line. But regardless, he knew an ambulance was now needed, not just the police. He should have called back. (But I am open to the possibility that everything happened so fast that GZ wasn't able to collect his wits.)

Difficult to think when in a rage!

Nova
04-14-2012, 06:59 PM
With all do respect, that's how it works because of SYG in FL.

"That’s not the case in Florida, where a legal provision prohibits police from prosecuting and even arresting an individual who claims a “justifiable homicide” under the “stand your ground” law, Rolnick said. The burden of proof in Florida lies with the prosecution, she said."

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2012/apr/11/trayvon-martin-tragedy-reverberates-nevada/

jenny, I'll allow there is considerable confusion over the SYG law. Most have described it as badly written. But we still have to consider the sources when we invoke these links.

The link you reference above is a panel discussion in Nevada by activists who are opposed to SYG in principle. 1. I'm not sure they are actually experts on the law; 2. they may be expected to present the law's ramifications in the worst possible light.

jjenny
04-14-2012, 06:59 PM
Let me grant you that the NY Post article does indeed say what you are asserting. I don't necessarily believe that is correct.

I admit I know about affirmative defenses under California law. The "justifiable homicide" defense mentioned in the Post article would be such a defense and the burden would fall on Zimmerman.

Let me see if I can find some reference to a Florida exception to that principle.
Ca is different from FL because of SYG law.

At trial, the burden of proof will be on prosecution. Prosecutor will have to prove Zimmerman did not act in self-defense.

"Only then can she take the case to a jury, in front of which she will face a high legal burden to prove that the killing wasn't in self-defense."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/news-guide-qa-trayvon-martin-shooting-16120440#.T4oA9dnwGSo

octobermoon
04-14-2012, 07:00 PM
I totally agree with you. Chit happens. I think the only reason people question TM's dad that night is because that very day Trayvon was suspended for 10 days and for the third time. So some might wonder why the kid was even allowed out the door that night. And why dad just assumed he went to the movies. He was suspended that day and they had no problem with him going off to the movies, with out asking or telling anyone, after telling his kid brother he was going off to get him candy? I am not bashing, just explaining why some might wonder about it. If my 17 yr old says I am coming right back with candy, and I am just walking to the store, then I don't go to bed assuming everything is fine, if he never comes back that night. I know a few people will yell at me for asking these questions, but I am responding to a post in which the questions were already asked.

Your friends son was in his own hometown, so it made more sense that he had found a ride with a friend somewhere. And he wasnt grounded.

JMO If GZ had had more guidance in his life, a more sensible nature we wouldn't even be discussing the death of a kid walking home. I lay the blame at the feet of GZ. The man who was suppose to watch out for his neighbors, the man who took on that responsibility. The one who knew better- not the kid who was walking down the sidewalk. The man who followed a kid in the dark in the rain. IMO JMO MOO The man named GZ who got to graduate HS, marry, live in a home with his wife. Attend classes.. All that taken away from Trayvon because GZ thought he was walking around looking up to no good. IMO JMO MOO This man GZ took it upon himself to be the judge and the jury... of a kid walking in the rain. :(

Nova
04-14-2012, 07:01 PM
Well, true, it's not the same as the actual trial where the state has to prove he committed the crime of 2nd degree murder.

But, if GZ requests and has the hearing on SYG defense and loses and goes to trial, that defense is out and the prosecutor handles the trial as usual to prove the crime he is charged with. The prosecutor does not have to prove or disprove SYG in the trial because it is no longer an allowable defense.

Sorry, Reader, but almost all sources agree that a "justifiable homicide" claim (SYG in slightly different wording) remains available to the defendant even if he fails to meet his burden in the special SYG hearing.

ETA here's a good link from the AP:

http://www.newser.com/article/d9u4tpko1/ap-enterprise-stand-your-ground-gives-zimmerman-legal-edge-data-unclear-on-laws-effect.html


Unfortunately, it does not address my disagreement with jjenny as to who has the burden of proof once "justifiable homicide" is raised at trial.

jjenny
04-14-2012, 07:02 PM
Well, true, it's not the same as the actual trial where the state has to prove he committed the crime of 2nd degree murder.

But, if GZ requests and has the hearing on SYG defense and loses and goes to trial, that defense is out and the prosecutor handles the trial as usual to prove the crime he is charged with. The prosecutor does not have to prove or disprove SYG in the trial because it is no longer an allowable defense.

Yes, Zimmerman will be allowed to use self-defense if this goes to trial and prosecutor will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt Zimmerman did not act in self-defense.

jjenny
04-14-2012, 07:03 PM
Sorry, Reader, but almost all sources agree that a "justifiable homicide" claim (SYG in slightly different wording) remains available to the defendant even if he fails to meet his burden in the special SYG hearing.

Sure does. If Zimmerman can not convince judge by "preponderance of the evidence" that he acted in self defense, the judge will allow prosecutor to take the case to trial. Zimmerman can again use self-defense at trial, and a prosecutor has to prove Zimmerman did not act in self-defense (beyond a reasonable doubt).

Isabelle
04-14-2012, 07:03 PM
So we should put a not guilty person on trial just because of public pressure? Is that what you are saying?

No, I am not saying that. What you just posted could be interpreted to read that anyone could be tried for this killing (all the anyone's are certainly not guilty of firing the gun that killed Trayvon).

How are you so sure that GZ is not guilty? I'm not saying he is guilty either, I am saying we know he took another's life and he should be made to justify his actions in a court of law. Our constitution not only protects GZ, but it also protected TM.

jjenny
04-14-2012, 07:05 PM
How are you so sure there is no guilt here? What if GZ was truly guilty? I don't get what you are trying to say? Should we take GZ's word alone and be done with the case? No thorough investigation? What about the detective that wanted to arrest and charge GZ? So, you are saying, that anyone that kills another can can they did it in self defense and that should be the end of it. I don't think so!

ETA: the majority of those incarcerated will tell you that they are not guilty!

Well in some cases public pressure led to actually innocent defendants being arrested and charged. And even if defendant isn't innocent, defendant does have a right to a fair trial. And how is that going to be accomplished in the case of Zimmerman?

Isabelle
04-14-2012, 07:07 PM
Well in some cases public pressure led to actually innocent defendants being arrested in charge.

I know, and I am glad there is a group that fights for these people who are imprisoned falsely. But, there has to be a process.

Isabelle
04-14-2012, 07:07 PM
Well in some cases public pressure led to actually innocent defendants being arrested and charged. And even if defendant isn't innocent, defendant does have a right to a fair trial. And how is that going to be accomplished in the case of Zimmerman?


Why wouldn't GZ receive a fair trial?

IzzyBlanche
04-14-2012, 07:11 PM
And if defendant isn't guilty? Is that good too?

If the defendant is found not guilty in a court of law, that will be "good" in my book. I might not agree with the verdict, or I may depending on what new evidence comes to light at trial, but I will be satisfied that the legal system did its job.

I believe that is all most who have followed the case have wanted from the beginning. JMO etc.

IzzyBlanche
04-14-2012, 07:14 PM
So we should put a not guilty person on trial just because of public pressure? Is that what you are saying?

How do you know the person is not guilty without first going through a trial? Just because he said so?

octobermoon
04-14-2012, 07:15 PM
If the defendant is found not guilty in a court of law, that will be "good" in my book. I might not agree with the verdict, or I may depending on what new evidence comes to light at trial, but I will be satisfied that the legal system did its job.

I believe that is all most who have followed the case have wanted from the beginning. JMO etc.

Well said.

:)

JBean
04-14-2012, 07:19 PM
Ca is different from FL because of SYG law.

At trial, the burden of proof will be on prosecution. Prosecutor will have to prove Zimmerman did not act in self-defense.

"Only then can she take the case to a jury, in front of which she will face a high legal burden to prove that the killing wasn't in self-defense."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/news-guide-qa-trayvon-martin-shooting-16120440#.T4oA9dnwGSo
The prosecution may have the burden of proving it was an unlawful killing aka 2nd degree murder aka not self defense-but if the defendant wants to get self defense in the jury instructions ( his affirmative defense)-he has got the burden of presenting some evidence -any evidence that it WAS self defense. If the defendant does not show any evidence whatsoever that it was in self defense the jury would not even be able to consider it.

IOW, in most cases the defense does not have to present anything. They can let the prosecution prove or not prove their case and it can go straight to the jury.

But in an affirmative defense the defense absolutely has the burden of putting on a case to show their position otherwise it doesn't make sense. KWIM? So the burden is also on the defendant- maybe to a different degree but they have a burden none the less.ETA: the prosecution may have a higher standard to reach-but they both have to prove to their respective degrees.

Karmady
04-14-2012, 07:20 PM
jenny, I'll allow there is considerable confusion over the SYG law. Most have described it as badly written. But we still have to consider the sources when we invoke these links.

The link you reference above is a panel discussion in Nevada by activists who are opposed to SYG in principle. 1. I'm not sure they are actually experts on the law; 2. they may be expected to present the law's ramifications in the worst possible light.

I agree with you that there is considerable confusion over how SYG applies at trial and, in particular, its interplay with a standard justifiable homicide defense. I am very accustomed to reading the dense and virtually indecipherable lol, and while I haven't devoted an extraordinary amount of time to it, I think I would've been able to draw a clear conclusion by now if there was one to be drawn. The question in my mind it whether it remains an "immunity" statute at trial and, if so, whether the preponderence burden on the defense in the SYG context changes after a preliminary hearing. I guess we shall see...

Isabelle
04-14-2012, 07:21 PM
OT watching TLC, Teens who Kill. Covering the case of Rachel Wade/Sara Ludemann. Rachel claimed self defense, it wasn't proven.

Nova
04-14-2012, 07:30 PM
Sure does. If Zimmerman can not convince judge by "preponderance of the evidence" that he acted in self defense, the judge will allow prosecutor to take the case to trial. Zimmerman can again use self-defense at trial, and a prosecutor has to prove Zimmerman did not act in self-defense (beyond a reasonable doubt).

It is slightly more complicated than that, jenny, but upon further research I think I owe you an apology: Florida does seem to be an exception to the standard rules of affirmative defenses used elsewhere.

Here is a detailed discussion from a Jacksonville law firm. (Mods, I hope this is okay. It isn't MSM, but it is an expert source and therefore, IMO, better.)

http://www.husseinandwebber.com/florida-law-self-defense-use-of-force.html


As I understand the discussion there and assuming the defendant can't get a judge to dismiss the case under SYG before trial, the defendant still has the affirmative defense of "justifiable homicide" available to him. Under Florida law, the initial burden is on the defendant, but the burden is relatively low (and may not even require the defendant to take the stand). Once the defendant meets his affirmative defense burden, then the burden seems to shift back to the prosecutor to DISprove justifiable homicide beyond a reasonable doubt.

Whether GZ's mere say-so is enough to meet his burden remains unclear, however, per the sites I've found. Some even assert that nobody really knows how all these burdens will play out because none of them has been tested by appellate courts.

Totally jmo now: I won't be surprised if the prosecution argues that GZ's pursuit of TM despite the dispatcher's instruction proves that GZ intended to detain TM until police arrived. That might be construed as kidnapping, a felony which would negate any SYG claim. Again, this is just my speculation as to how they may try to circumvent any SYG problems.

octobermoon
04-14-2012, 07:30 PM
Oh yeah, mega money is really gonna help them. Only those who have lost a child can understand that NOTHING makes it better. It NEVER goes away. I couldn't understand why my mother and sister couldn't get over the death of their respective children, I know now and regret not being more supportive.

:grouphug:

I never want to know your pain :( Don't regret, you didn't know the depths. It is a club nobody wants to join. :hug: Prayers for you and yours.

Reader
04-14-2012, 07:30 PM
Ca is different from FL because of SYG law.

At trial, the burden of proof will be on prosecution. Prosecutor will have to prove Zimmerman did not act in self-defense.

"Only then can she take the case to a jury, in front of which she will face a high legal burden to prove that the killing wasn't in self-defense."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/news-guide-qa-trayvon-martin-shooting-16120440#.T4oA9dnwGSo

BUT in the trial, GZ and his lawyer can only use the regular self-defense law, not SYG.

Dr.Fessel
04-14-2012, 07:33 PM
Frank Taaffe gets it right at 1:42 in this video. Wonder if that was his nickname for old George.

Trayvon Martin Case: George Zimmerman&#39;s Neighbor Speaks Out - YouTube

Nova
04-14-2012, 07:37 PM
The prosecution may have the burden of proving it was an unlawful killing aka 2nd degree murder aka not self defense-but if the defendant wants to get self defense in the jury instructions ( his affirmative defense)-he has got the burden of presenting some evidence -any evidence that it WAS self defense. If the defendant does not show any evidence whatsoever that it was in self defense the jury would not even be able to consider it.

IOW, in most cases the defense does not have to present anything. They can let the prosecution prove or not prove their case and it can go straight to the jury.

But in an affirmative defense the defense absolutely has the burden of putting on a case to show their position otherwise it doesn't make sense. KWIM? So the burden is also on the defendant- maybe to a different degree but they have a burden none the less.ETA: the prosecution may have a higher standard to reach-but they both have to prove to their respective degrees.

J, do you get the sense that the burden of proof for an affirmative defense is lower in Florida than in California? I've been a juror on a "self-defense" case in CA and while the defense's burden wasn't proof beyond a reasonable doubt, it seemed reasonably strict.

But I'm finding sites in Florida (mostly from criminal defense lawyers) that make the defendant's burden sound very low. Maybe that's just a marketing tool, but the Florida statute does say that once the defendant meets his burden, the State's burden returns in full force.

songline
04-14-2012, 07:38 PM
Why surprised? It took a great deal of p.r. to get enough national attention to Trayvon Martin's story that the Florida attorney general was forced to take action.

Hi Nova.
There is more ways than one to skin a cat... and pulling out the racial card is just one game, there are others.
I always believe this "To the dead we owe only the truth"
I have seen the media has done a great job swaying public opinion... I always loved the facts and never just follow blindly...I want to know what really happened before I follow any direction. Let’s not fabricate a case - it has been sensationalized without us knowing all the facts. We do not know Trayvon, we do not know what Zimmerman felt as he sized him up BUT I sure know that feeling of thinking someone is up to no good. I sure do know that I have to trust my mistrust, and if I see something I cannot ignore it.
I want to give Zimmerman a chance to clear himself. IF he can. But I do not want to play revenge and bury him without fully knowing. That is not just.
MOO :moo:

grandmaj
04-14-2012, 07:40 PM
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momshrink
04-14-2012, 07:45 PM
Nope, that is not correct. Prosecution will have to prove at trial Zimmerman did not act in self-defense.

Several legal experts have discussed this earlier in this thread. Their information is very different from your opinion. Are you a Florida attorney?
I will go back and find the.posts about this.
Respectfully, JMO.

Reader
04-14-2012, 07:46 PM
Good discussion on the case and the SYG defense, and Richard Hornsby is interviewed:

http://www.npr.org/2012/04/12/150507016/challenges-for-attorneys-in-the-zimmerman-case

Excerpts from Hornsby:


If he decides there are no challenges worth making before the arraignment, he'll file a written plea of not guilty, and that arraignment will actually be waived, and it will never be held by the judge. Then after that, the next major thing I think the public will get to see is there will likely be a hearing on the Stand Your Ground motion, the defense - what we call an immunity hearing, where George Zimmerman will have to present evidence to establish that he was legally defending himself.

And if he establishes that by a preponderance of the evidence, then the judge will be required to dismiss the charge.


Is it successful? No, I would not say that people are filing these motions left and right and winning. You know, I've filed maybe 15 motions, Stand Your Ground motions to dismiss, since the law has been implemented, and I've only won two or three of them at the - you know, in front of a judge. Because, again, the judge has to believe the defendant's version of the events and believe the defendant was reasonably defending himself.

And many times, if you have, you know, a defendant and a victim come in, and they're both equally credible, it's sometimes hard for the defendant to meet that burden. The judge says, well, I think a jury should decide this.

You know, the big issue in George Zimmerman's case is, of course, Trayvon Martin isn't around to tell his side of the story, and so the prosecutor is going to have to tell Trayvon Martin's story through circumstantial evidence and things of that nature.

JBean
04-14-2012, 07:47 PM
J, do you get the sense that the burden of proof for an affirmative defense is lower in Florida than in California? I've been a juror on a "self-defense" case in CA and while the defense's burden wasn't proof beyond a reasonable doubt, it seemed reasonably strict.

But I'm finding sites in Florida (mostly from criminal defense lawyers) that make the defendant's burden sound very low. Maybe that's just a marketing tool, but the Florida statute does say that once the defendant meets his burden, the State's burden returns in full force.
Hi Nova. Yes that is my understanding of it as well. I think what would be very helpful would be reading the jury instructions because that would basically lay it all out for us.

octobermoon
04-14-2012, 07:47 PM
Songline,
no one is going to bury George.

octobermoon
04-14-2012, 07:48 PM
Sorry I will take a break.

Karmady
04-14-2012, 07:55 PM
Hi Nova. Yes that is my understanding of it as well. I think what would be very helpful would be reading the jury instructions because that would basically lay it all out for us.

I've read the model jury instructions and found them to be most UNHELPFUL lol.

There are here in case you are interested

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/instructions.shtml

grandmaj
04-14-2012, 08:04 PM
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168920&page=5

I have posted a thorough review of the allegation that the girl waited 3 weeks to make any report. See the post above.

The Moderators have given much leeway to discuss this allegation. At this point it is time to move on because the MSM facts, do not back up the allegation.

We are asking that you treat this child as a victim, not make wild accusations about her or her motivations unless you can back it up. You can question the truth in what she is saying and you can discuss how it may look or be challenged in court. But the personal characterizations and discussions about this minor are not allowed. She is a victim.

:bump:

Nova
04-14-2012, 08:05 PM
I've read the model jury instructions and found them to be most UNHELPFUL lol.

There are here in case you are interested

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/instructions.shtml

I see what you mean: they basically just repeat the language of the appropriate statute. I've read a lot of jury instructions in my time, both as a juror and as a legal secretary and they are often as clear as mud.

FWIW, the "no duty to retreat" instruction is the same in California (or at least it was when I was a juror). The jury can't require the defendant to retreat from a deadly threat because backing up or turning to run may get the defendant killed.

That's why SYG has been called unnecessary by many prosecutors and police officers.

Adrienne37
04-14-2012, 08:06 PM
I have done extensive research on this issue of allegations that the girlfriend did not come forward for 3 weeks.

I'm going to post it and then, after talking to other moderators and Admins, it has been decided this issue has been discussed to infinity and beyond, and we need to move on.

The girlfriend is considered an innocent victim and thus she should only be discussed in terms of whether you believe her testimony or not. You have a right to discuss why you don't believe her testimony. But we are not going to allow wild theories without proof to back them up. These are the consistent rules for victims and this young girl is considered a victim.

If you read the links you will learn that she was represented by counsel to protect her interests soon after she learned she was the last person to talk to Trayvon before he was murdered.

(1) The records of the phone calls I'm going to post are not Travon's but the girlfriends. If you listen to the taped interview, ABC made a statement that they exclusively got the call logs, that police had them, but never called the girlfriend. They vetted the girlfriend's call logs before running the story on 3/21.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-arrest-now-abc-reveals-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T4nZBdl0nWB

(2) Next I went looking for information about the funeral. There really is little out there because remember this case didn't take off in the news until about the second week, but more so the third week in March when everyone was resigning and the media started really delving into this case.

After not finding anything else I went to Isabelle Zehnder who is a friend of WS and her articles in the Examiner are allowed. I should have gone there first, but at 4am I wasn't very sharp. :lol:

I found the following:
Snip:

Trayvon’s girlfriend, who is a minor and whose name will not be released, learned the day after Trayvon’s wake that she was the last person, other than his killer, to speak with him alive.

Another snip:

"Trayvon's girlfriend just wants justice, period. She was extremely fearful of the Sanford Police Department and was scared of retaliation for cooperating with the investigators.

“Her mother is very protective of her and will make sure she is safe. It's tragic that this teenager's life has now been changed forever, and the innocence of her youth is essentially gone."

This is all in the story with quotes from Radar on-line who broke the story.

http://www.examiner.com/unsolved-cases-in-national/trayvon-martin-s-girlfriend-hospitalized

Now, still not being able to find anything about the date of the funeral I began listening to the funeral director talk about lack of injuries pointing to him saying the struggle doesn't add up. I watched videos rather than rely on the typed word. I got Lucky.

At approx 1:47 in the video posted at the link below(go full screen) there is a quick scan of the memorial folder used for Trayvon's Memorial Service. I believe the date is the 3rd, but it could be an 8 also. Trayvon's service would have been on one of those two dates. The date is at the bottom of the Memorial Folder for his service. Maybe someone with better eyes can zoom in on it and capture the date. :)

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/03/29/funeral-director-no-signs-of-scuffle-on-trayvon-martins-body/

Remember now what we are told in the Examiner Article.... The girlfriend found out the day after the visitation. So that puts it in the first week of March less than a week from Trayvon's death, if the March 3rd date is correct. It would also point to the phone records being hers and her calling the Sanford Police on March 2, 2012.

Just bumping Grandmaj's post about Trayvon's girlfriend.

Velouria
04-14-2012, 08:08 PM
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Velouria
04-14-2012, 08:12 PM
Why is that surprising? I think it's rather obvious the reason Zimmerman was arrested is because of public pressure.

Then it's a shame it had to take public pressure to bring about what should have been done to begin with.

Steft50
04-14-2012, 08:13 PM
Well I believe I am correct.
I've yet to see any link that says I am not. No one has provided any links that say burden of proof will be on Zimmerman if this gets to trial. The msm articles say burden of proof is on prosecution beyond a reasonable doubt.

I think the whole issue here is the phrase "burden of proof". If I understand this correctly, the SYG immunity hearing, the burden shifts to the defense to proof he was SYG'ing. If immunity is denied and this goes to trial, the "burden of proof" is on the prosecution. HOWEVER.....IF GZ is offering an affirmative defense such as self defense or SYG defense he will have to offer evidence to support that defense.

I'm not sure this link will be allowed, but this is from the Cornell Law school online dictionary of legal terms.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/affirmative_defense



Affirmative defense

A defense in which the defendant introduces evidence, which, if found to be credible, will negate criminal or civil liability, even if it is proven that the defendant committed the alleged acts. Self-defense, entrapment, insanity, and necessity are some examples of affirmative defenses. See, e.g. Beach v. Ocwen Fed. Bank, 523 U.S. 410 (1998).


Definition from Nolo’s Plain-English Law Dictionary


August 19, 2010, 5:10 pm

IMO and all that

Velouria
04-14-2012, 08:16 PM
I think the whole issue here is the phrase "burden of proof". If I understand this correctly, the SYG immunity hearing, the burden shifts to the defense to proof he was SYG'ing. If immunity is denied and this goes to trial, the "burden of proof" is on the prosecution. HOWEVER.....IF GZ is offering an affirmative defense such as self defense or SYG defense he will have to offer evidence to support that defense.

I'm not sure this link will be allowed, but this is from the Cornell Law school online dictionary of legal terms.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/affirmative_defense



Affirmative defense

A defense in which the defendant introduces evidence, which, if found to be credible, will negate criminal or civil liability, even if it is proven that the defendant committed the alleged acts. Self-defense, entrapment, insanity, and necessity are some examples of affirmative defenses. See, e.g. Beach v. Ocwen Fed. Bank, 523 U.S. 410 (1998).


Definition from Nolo’s Plain-English Law Dictionary


August 19, 2010, 5:10 pm

IMO and all that

Yes Steft. GZ can still assert SYG at trial, but the prosecution need only prove the elements of the crime. A defendant still has the burden to prove he acted in self-defense.

Trapshooter
04-14-2012, 08:17 PM
Frank Taaffe gets it right at 1:42 in this video. Wonder if that was his nickname for old George.

Trayvon Martin Case: George Zimmerman's Neighbor Speaks Out - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r_IWjzYK6c)

Oh Dr. Fessel, PLEASE, PLEASE make Frank Taaffe go away!!!! :please:

Karmady
04-14-2012, 08:17 PM
is it correct that the gf was subpoenaed to the GJ that didn't happen? If so, was it Corey who issued the subpoena? Anyone know off the top of their head? TIA

Donjeta
04-14-2012, 08:17 PM
Frank Taaffe gets it right at 1:42 in this video. Wonder if that was his nickname for old George.

Trayvon Martin Case: George Zimmerman's Neighbor Speaks Out - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r_IWjzYK6c)

JMO but it's strange that FT kinda lets it be understood that when they spoke on the phone after TM's death GZ shared with him that he had stopped a burglary in FT's house and what happened with the alleged perp. If they're such good friends wouldn't they have already dealt with all of that when it happened?

Nova
04-14-2012, 08:22 PM
Yes Steft. GZ can still assert SYG at trial, but the prosecution need only prove the elements of the crime. A defendant still has the burden to prove he acted in self-defense.

Yes, but what isn't clear is how high is the defendant's burden? Is merely asserting self-defense (either through the defendant's direct testimony or by his attorney's interpretation of other evidence) sufficient? Some passages in the Florida statutes suggest merely claiming self-defense may be enough to put the burden back onto the prosecution.

beach
04-14-2012, 08:23 PM
I think the whole issue here is the phrase "burden of proof". If I understand this correctly, the SYG immunity hearing, the burden shifts to the defense to proof he was SYG'ing. If immunity is denied and this goes to trial, the "burden of proof" is on the prosecution. HOWEVER.....IF GZ is offering an affirmative defense such as self defense or SYG defense he will have to offer evidence to support that defense.

I'm not sure this link will be allowed, but this is from the Cornell Law school online dictionary of legal terms.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/affirmative_defense



Affirmative defense

A defense in which the defendant introduces evidence, which, if found to be credible, will negate criminal or civil liability, even if it is proven that the defendant committed the alleged acts. Self-defense, entrapment, insanity, and necessity are some examples of affirmative defenses. See, e.g. Beach v. Ocwen Fed. Bank, 523 U.S. 410 (1998).


Definition from Nolo’s Plain-English Law Dictionary


August 19, 2010, 5:10 pm

IMO and all that

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Beautifully explained. Succinct.



btw, the cornell website you linked is a fantastic source. it was one of the first links that we were told to bookmark in college! i still use it all the time. a wealth of info on that site.

AngelWings444
04-14-2012, 08:25 PM
Just got back home. Thank you Grandmaj for all your hard work and research on Trayvon's girlfriend. I thought the phone record was hers. It really changes things having her call 911 on 3/2/2012, 4 days after Trayvon was killed.

I hope and pray she is kept out of the media spotlight, and others (not speaking of here at WS) respect that she is a victim and a minor. I can't imagine how she feels. Poor thing. My heart breaks for her.

Cher352
04-14-2012, 08:31 PM
I've already posted links.
Here is one with quotes from Richard Hornsby. I really hope his stops by here and explains it once and for all.

"The moment George Zimmerman fired that shot is the key question in this entire case," Hornsby said. "Did he reasonably believe he had to fire that shot to defend himself? And the fact (Corey) completely left that out, begs the question, does she not have any evidence to refute his version of the events?"

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57414081/strength-of-case-against-zimmerman-questioned/?tag=stack

I do like Richard Hornsby I too wish he would drop in and help us understand this law and how it works.

And Richard if you do drop by.....
my question to you is would you have taken on this case if asked to?

Dr.Fessel
04-14-2012, 08:31 PM
JMO but it's strange that FT kinda lets it be understood that when they spoke on the phone after TM's death GZ shared with him that he had stopped a burglary in FT's house and what happened with the alleged perp. If they're such good friends wouldn't they have already dealt with all of that when it happened? The phone call he is referring to happened last Monday.:what: 6 weeks after the shooting and over 2 months since that report he is referring too.

Steft50
04-14-2012, 08:39 PM
Yes, but what isn't clear is how high is the defendant's burden? Is merely asserting self-defense (either through the defendant's direct testimony or by his attorney's interpretation of other evidence) sufficient? Some passages in the Florida statutes suggest merely claiming self-defense may be enough to put the burden back onto the prosecution.

This is the part I don't get. If I were a juror I wouldn't take the word of either side without evidence to back it up. Example: GZ can claim self defense till the stars fall down but if he can't show me some evidence to support that I'm not buying it. Same with the prosecution....they've charged murder 2, but if they can't show me in the form of evidence why this is murder 2 (or anything lessor that may be in the instructions) then I'm not going to buy it from them either. That is just me though. Right now the evidence I am seeing puts some serious doubt into the self defense and GZ's version (or at least his families version) of what happened.

IMO and all that

grandmaj
04-14-2012, 08:39 PM
I know I saw Taffee's original comments which was a little milder about that event, then we are hearing now. Anyone have the link to his first interview?

Adrienne37
04-14-2012, 08:42 PM
I know I saw Taffee's original comments which was a little milder about that event, then we are hearing now. Anyone have the link to his first interview?

Hopefully they are online somewhere. I've DVR'd every program about Trayvon (even including Oliver and Taaffe both (gagging)), but I swear I wouldn't be able to sit through all of his nonsense again but you are right, he's definitely changed his tune in each and every interview, getting a little more overdramatic each time.



~jmo~

Lovejac
04-14-2012, 08:43 PM
Hopefully they are online somewhere. I've DVR'd every program about Trayvon (even including Oliver and Taaffe both (gagging)), but I swear I wouldn't be able to sit through all of his nonsense again but you are right, he's definitely changed his tune in each and every interview, getting a little more overdramatic each time.



~jmo~
AND more annoying! LOL!

Adrienne37
04-14-2012, 08:45 PM
AND more annoying! LOL!

ain't that the truth not to mention a little more dapper with each interview as well. I noticed he is now wearing his spectacles to make himself appear more like a lawyer or something. (gagging here again).



~jmo~

grandmaj
04-14-2012, 08:47 PM
I'll find the link but not tonight. :lol: I think I have it bookmarked. No worries I'll find it.

Adrienne37
04-14-2012, 08:48 PM
Marine in trouble for tweet about Trayvon Martin shooting...

A Marine at Twenty-nine Palms is facing punishment after making an "inappropriate" reference to the Trayvon Martin case in a Twitter message, the Marine Corps said Saturday.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sns-la-lanews-marine-in-trouble-for-tweet-a-20120414,0,469149.story

Steft50
04-14-2012, 08:51 PM
ain't that the truth not to mention a little more dapper with each interview as well. I noticed he is now wearing his spectacles to make himself appear more like a lawyer or something. (gagging here again).



~jmo~

Don't hate me for this but......
Am I the only one here that does not watch all this stuff? No offense to anyone, but I simply can't stomach most of the hosts and a good many of the guests are pretty self serving, and the lawyers all contridict each other and sometimes even themselves depending on the cases.

imo and all that

LynnM
04-14-2012, 08:52 PM
ain't that the truth not to mention a little more dapper with each interview as well. I noticed he is now wearing his spectacles to make himself appear more like a lawyer or something. (gagging here again).



~jmo~

Maybe he's hoping to appeal to his constituents! :floorlaugh:

Adrienne37
04-14-2012, 08:54 PM
Maybe he's hoping to appeal to his constituents! :floorlaugh:

or aiming to get a job coaching football since he likes to throw that in all the time.


~jmo~

Adrienne37
04-14-2012, 08:56 PM
Don't hate me for this but......
Am I the only one here that does not watch all this stuff? No offense to anyone, but I simply can't stomach most of the hosts and a good many of the guests are pretty self serving, and the lawyers all contridict each other and sometimes even themselves depending on the cases.

imo and all that

Nope, wouldn't hate you for that at all because normally I do not watch them either. The only reason I have done so in this case is because of my feelings about Trayvon's family. I very much enjoy both his mom and dad speaking so that's the main reason that I've DVR'd all of them.


~jmo~

AngelWings444
04-14-2012, 08:58 PM
Marine in trouble for tweet about Trayvon Martin shooting...

A Marine at Twenty-nine Palms is facing punishment after making an "inappropriate" reference to the Trayvon Martin case in a Twitter message, the Marine Corps said Saturday.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sns-la-lanews-marine-in-trouble-for-tweet-a-20120414,0,469149.story

What an <self mod snip>! What the heck is wrong with people? I would say punishment by firing squad (as a joke), but I might be taken serious.

octobermoon
04-14-2012, 09:01 PM
Don't hate me for this but......
Am I the only one here that does not watch all this stuff? No offense to anyone, but I simply can't stomach most of the hosts and a good many of the guests are pretty self serving, and the lawyers all contridict each other and sometimes even themselves depending on the cases.

imo and all that

LOL, I can only speak for myself, but I didn't have internet for years, so it is kind
of like a show you hate, but don't want to miss. And I love to see Nancy roll her eyes when FT is being smarmy. but that's just me. ;)

raeann
04-14-2012, 09:05 PM
or aiming to get a job coaching football since he likes to throw that in all the time.


~jmo~

It seems U. of Arkansas has a current opening....but not sure they want to trade one smarmy coach for another.....

sorry...off topic....