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imamaze
04-16-2012, 03:51 PM
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jenniek
04-16-2012, 03:55 PM
MOM asks for a new judge

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/4/16/trayvon_martin_attor?cmpid=twitter

Marshmallow
04-16-2012, 04:13 PM
MOM asks for a new judge

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/4/16/trayvon_martin_attor?cmpid=twitter


I'm glad that he did, this rules out any complaints later on if she were to rule on anything against Mr Zimmerman

imamaze
04-16-2012, 04:44 PM
Just a reminder...

We are discussing the neighbors only in the context of what is known in the MSM's and interviews they have made. We are not sleuthing them at this time. Thanks.

Ima

IzzyBlanche
04-16-2012, 04:45 PM
George Zimmerman Afraid of Being Killed in Jail

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/george_zimmerman_afraid_of_being_UWxL8AHEIjCLzlbwv 14seK

nomoresorrow
04-16-2012, 04:53 PM
George Zimmerman Afraid of Being Killed in Jail

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/george_zimmerman_afraid_of_being_UWxL8AHEIjCLzlbwv 14seK

I thought he was in protective custody?

nomoresorrow
04-16-2012, 04:58 PM
GZ is in protective custody - thought I recalled reading that...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-apologize-trayvon-martins-family-lawyer-tells/story?id=16123136

IzzyBlanche
04-16-2012, 05:01 PM
I thought he was in protective custody?

So did I. :waitasec:

katydid23
04-16-2012, 05:02 PM
GZ is in protective custody - thought I recalled reading that...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-apologize-trayvon-martins-family-lawyer-tells/story?id=16123136

But if someone in there wants to get to you, it is still possible, even if in Protective custody. Not as easy as if he were in General population, but it still is a danger.

Adrienne37
04-16-2012, 05:03 PM
Too bad so sad for Zimmerman. Guess he should have thought about all the possible repercussions before he took the law into his own hands and decided to snuff out an innocent kid's life.

Casey Anthony lived quite comfortably for all those 3 years she was in jail so I can't imagine that he should be any less uncomfortable.

~jmo~

flourish
04-16-2012, 05:14 PM
Yeah, Casey Anthony survived...and there were reports of people screaming "baby killer" at her...have we heard any reports about GZ getting yelled at in jail?

Donjeta
04-16-2012, 05:18 PM
“So he’s concerned because he’s exposed to many people he doesn’t even know,” O’Mara added.

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/george_zimmerman_afraid_of_being_UWxL8AHEIjCLzlbwv 14seK#ixzz1sEy1xubi


Well, how inconsiderate of the jail officials, not to make sure all the other criminals in jail are people that GZ knows and approves of.

sleonardelli
04-16-2012, 05:20 PM
Sorry, new here but I've been following this case closely since it hit the media rounds. I was wondering if the community has any comments regarding basic concealed weapon protocol as indicated in
http://myweaponspermit.com/top-five-concealed-carry-mistakes/

"Even though concealed weapon holders are peaceful and law-abiding citizens, WE HAVE TO GO OUT OF THE WAY TO AVOID CONFLICT. Just because we can legally carry a concealed weapon DOES NOT MAKE US POLICE OFFICERS."

I know that's not an MSM link but it's relevant to GZ's actions in this case and I can't find it actually reported anywhere; I wonder why.

Lovejac
04-16-2012, 05:22 PM
MOM asks for a new judge

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/4/16/trayvon_martin_attor?cmpid=twitter

Not suprised to hear this. I think it's smart move by O'Mara.

Lovejac
04-16-2012, 05:26 PM
George Zimmerman Afraid of Being Killed in Jail

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/george_zimmerman_afraid_of_being_UWxL8AHEIjCLzlbwv 14seK

Well, jail is a frightening place filled with criminals, so there's that.

I thought he was in protective custody :waitasec:

I'm not certain he would be much safer out on bond. Whatcha think?

songline
04-16-2012, 05:29 PM
MOM asks for a new judge

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/4/16/trayvon_martin_attor?cmpid=twitter
Next he should ask for a new location.

songline
04-16-2012, 05:30 PM
Well, jail is a frightening place filled with criminals, so there's that.

I thought he was in protective custody :waitasec:

I'm not certain he would be much safer out on bond. Whatcha think?
He is isolated, but it must still be a scarry place.

songline
04-16-2012, 05:33 PM
GZ is in protective custody - thought I recalled reading that...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-apologize-trayvon-martins-family-lawyer-tells/story?id=16123136

I think if he gets out till the trial he will be in protective custody.
But he is in jail and IMHO much safer there.

lauriej
04-16-2012, 05:34 PM
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-16/news/os-george-zimmerman-new-judge-20120416_1_media-companies-attorneys-mark-nejame


O'Mara is to appear on CNN Tuesday night. An advanced transcript, released by "Anderson Cooper 360", quotes him as saying he believes Zimmerman will get a fair trial.

"Florida has a good process in place to make sure we have an unaffected jury," O'Mara said. "The best example is Casey Anthony, even though they had to go a 100 miles west, they were able to get a jury who sat back, listened to all of the evidence and made a decision.

"We will get a fair trial, I have a residual concern that the emotions attached to this case, well outside the actual facts of what happened, may have a continued impact on our ability to try the case properly if those involved don't wait and let the process work."

IzzyBlanche
04-16-2012, 05:34 PM
Well, jail is a frightening place filled with criminals, so there's that.

I thought he was in protective custody :waitasec:

I'm not certain he would be much safer out on bond. Whatcha think?

I think he's safer in custody. JMO.

waltzingmatilda
04-16-2012, 05:47 PM
Sorry, new here but I've been following this case closely since it hit the media rounds. I was wondering if the community has any comments regarding basic concealed weapon protocol as indicated in
http://myweaponspermit.com/top-five-concealed-carry-mistakes/

"Even though concealed weapon holders are peaceful and law-abiding citizens, WE HAVE TO GO OUT OF THE WAY TO AVOID CONFLICT. Just because we can legally carry a concealed weapon DOES NOT MAKE US POLICE OFFICERS."

I know that's not an MSM link but it's relevant to GZ's actions in this case and I can't find it actually reported anywhere; I wonder why.

:welcome::wagon::welcome:

Adrienne37
04-16-2012, 05:50 PM
I think he's safer in custody. JMO.

I agree but with the seriousness of the charges against him, I personally don't believe he should be out on bail.



~jmo~

Dr.Fessel
04-16-2012, 05:53 PM
I agree but with the seriousness of the charges against him, I personally don't believe he should be out on bail.



~jmo~

He has lost his permit to carry a concealed weapon now. Best just stay in jail.

waltzingmatilda
04-16-2012, 05:55 PM
I agree GZ is probably safer in jail. But I don't want him injured while in there, he deserves his day in court.

moo

wm

Adrienne37
04-16-2012, 05:55 PM
Sorry, new here but I've been following this case closely since it hit the media rounds. I was wondering if the community has any comments regarding basic concealed weapon protocol as indicated in
http://myweaponspermit.com/top-five-concealed-carry-mistakes/

"Even though concealed weapon holders are peaceful and law-abiding citizens, WE HAVE TO GO OUT OF THE WAY TO AVOID CONFLICT. Just because we can legally carry a concealed weapon DOES NOT MAKE US POLICE OFFICERS."

I know that's not an MSM link but it's relevant to GZ's actions in this case and I can't find it actually reported anywhere; I wonder why.

Thank you for your link. Very interesting information. Welcome to the board as well!!

Adrienne37
04-16-2012, 05:59 PM
Fla. Gov. Scott to Newsmax: Trayvon Case ‘Headed In the Right Direction’

“I think everyone is comfortable that Angela Corey [the special prosecutor appointed by Scott] is doing a good job. The Florida Department of Law Enforcement has a great reputation. So I think we are headed in the right direction,” Scott said.



http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Scott-Trayvon-Martin-Romney/2012/04/16/id/436048

thefragile7393
04-16-2012, 06:04 PM
Well, how inconsiderate of the jail officials, not to make sure all the other criminals in jail are people that GZ knows and approves of.

Thank you for that laugh I needed it!

tehcloser
04-16-2012, 06:05 PM
IzzyBlanche Registered User Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Paradise AKA San Diego, CA
Posts: 488

George Zimmerman Afraid of Being Killed in Jail

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...IjCLzlbwv14seK
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Hoodies do. (copyright)


BBM.......Who has the copyright for the above bolded?

IzzyBlanche
04-16-2012, 06:08 PM
IzzyBlanche Registered User Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Paradise AKA San Diego, CA
Posts: 488

George Zimmerman Afraid of Being Killed in Jail

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...IjCLzlbwv14seK
__________________
Guns don't kill people. Hoodies do. (copyright)


BBM.......Who has the copyright for the above bolded?

I do.

ETA: To get full legal protection I would have to trademark it, I think. But I did think up the phrase and I noticed people using similar phrases at protests, so I stuck that copyright on it.

BetteDavisEyes
04-16-2012, 06:10 PM
Too bad so sad for Zimmerman. Guess he should have thought about all the possible repercussions before he took the law into his own hands and decided to snuff out an innocent kid's life...

Respectfully snipped. GZ is afraid of being in jail. Fine. GZ should have considered how scared TM was when he was stalked and shot like an animal. :moo:

Adrienne37
04-16-2012, 06:17 PM
Respectfully snipped. GZ is afraid of being in jail. Fine. GZ should have considered how scared TM was when he was stalked and shot like an animal. :moo:

Amen BDE!!

Velouria
04-16-2012, 06:19 PM
Respectfully snipped. GZ is afraid of being in jail. Fine. GZ should have considered how scared TM was when he was stalked and shot like an animal. :moo:

:clap:

There is an upside though. Now instead of calling 911, he can just yell down the hallway.

waltzingmatilda
04-16-2012, 06:22 PM
:clap:

There is an upside though. Now instead of calling 911, he can just yell down the hallway.

:floorlaugh:

His index finger may be going thru withdrawals!:D

wm

LynnM
04-16-2012, 06:27 PM
:clap:

There is an upside though. Now instead of calling 911, he can just yell down the hallway.

If he keeps calling for a Correctional Officer about trivia and tattling on his neighbors, he is going to make himself very, very unpopular with both COs and his fellow inmates.

ThoughtFox
04-16-2012, 06:39 PM
Sorry, new here but I've been following this case closely since it hit the media rounds. I was wondering if the community has any comments regarding basic concealed weapon protocol as indicated in
http://myweaponspermit.com/top-five-concealed-carry-mistakes/

"Even though concealed weapon holders are peaceful and law-abiding citizens, WE HAVE TO GO OUT OF THE WAY TO AVOID CONFLICT. Just because we can legally carry a concealed weapon DOES NOT MAKE US POLICE OFFICERS."

I know that's not an MSM link but it's relevant to GZ's actions in this case and I can't find it actually reported anywhere; I wonder why.

Some of that is just a re-phrasing of the rules from the Florida Gun Licensing Website.
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html

Other states have similar rules that every gun owner is supposed to know. Obviously the NRA has figured out that people like George Zimmerman didn't read the rules too closely.

To me, the NRA is sending out a sort of "dog whistle" to gun owners in Florida and other states because they really, really don't want anymore incidents like this to happen. It draws way too much negative attention to their cause, which is the cause of every human being owning a gun, I guess.

They also don't want people to be reported for carrying a weapon in places where they aren't supposed to be, or even in places where it's legal because it begs the question of why it is even necessary to be armed to the gills all the time if you don't intend to shoot people. (Makes no sense to me, but what do I know?)

The NRA doesn't care about innocent victims like Trayvon Martin. They just don't want people to create more reasons for state legislatures to overturn Stand Your Ground laws. JMOO :cow:

Concerned Papa
04-16-2012, 06:42 PM
George Zimmerman Afraid of Being Killed in Jail

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/george_zimmerman_afraid_of_being_UWxL8AHEIjCLzlbwv 14seK

What was it his pal, Francis, told Soledad O'Brien?

"If you plant corn, you get corn"

LaLaw2000
04-16-2012, 06:44 PM
George Zimmerman Afraid of Being Killed in Jail

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/george_zimmerman_afraid_of_being_UWxL8AHEIjCLzlbwv 14seK

I'm sure GZ really is afraid of being killed in jail, but he is much safer in jail than he would be if sentenced to prison. In jail, he at least is in a one man lockdown cell. In prison he would not have that luxury. People are not going to forget GZ, and (prison) inmates are no exception.

In the course of 24 hours, he does come in contact with different officers at count time, shower time, and if he chooses his hour or so out of his solitary confinement cell. He will probably come in contact with trustees also.

If he is afraid at all, his shower time is probably his most vulnerable time, IMO. Imagine being naked and water running in the open stall shower, and an officer having to more or less watch your every move. GZ has no privacy whatsoever, but is in no danger of being harmed by officers. I would think that GZ is literally begging his lawyer to get him out of there.

Count time is done at least three times during the course of each shift and not always at the same times. During count time, his face cannot be turned toward the wall or covered. That can be intimidating to someone who isn't used to being awakened and ordered to show his face.

GZ is now in a place where he has no authority at all. He will have a very hard time adjusting, IMO. He has nothing but time and probably is constantly reliving the night he shot Trayvon. He has to stick with his original story, though.

George is really in no danger in jail, IMO. His big problems would definately come in prison if he is found guilty and sentenced.

This is of his own making and I certainly do not feel at all sorry for him.

MOO's

LaLaw2000
04-16-2012, 06:47 PM
But if someone in there wants to get to you, it is still possible, even if in Protective custody. Not as easy as if he were in General population, but it still is a danger.

No, not really. GZ is safe in PC.

The only thing I would so carefully watch out for is the food. There are no chefs in jail. All the food is cooked by trustees.

:moo:

LaLaw2000
04-16-2012, 06:50 PM
“So he’s concerned because he’s exposed to many people he doesn’t even know,” O’Mara added.

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/george_zimmerman_afraid_of_being_UWxL8AHEIjCLzlbwv 14seK#ixzz1sEy1xubi


Well, how inconsiderate of the jail officials, not to make sure all the other criminals in jail are people that GZ knows and approves of.

Wonder if GZ has any 'friends' willing to tough it out with him?

:moo:

lauriej
04-16-2012, 06:59 PM
No, not really. GZ is safe in PC.

The only thing I would so carefully watch out for is the food. There are no chefs in jail. All the food is cooked by trustees.

:moo:

--maybe that's why---on day 1 in the slammer---george ordered 20 snack food items.

http://cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/static/cfnews13/documents/george-zimmerman-commissary-0412.pdf
--george--april 12/2012--commissary order---

waltzingmatilda
04-16-2012, 06:59 PM
GZ's jail account is up to 502.16 so maybe someone expects he will be there awhile. HIs balance was at 302.16 all weekend so someone made a 200.00 dep today. He hasn't spent anything since last Th or Fr tho, IIRC.

http://webbond.seminolesheriff.org/InmateInfo.aspx?bkgnbr=201200004452

moo

wm

waltzingmatilda
04-16-2012, 07:16 PM
He has been isolated, he wont get hurt that way.
I think he is safer there then out side.

I agree songline.
There are too many angry peeps on the outside who need time to cool off. MOO

wm

Adrienne37
04-16-2012, 07:29 PM
--maybe that's why---on day 1 in the slammer---george ordered 20 snack food items.

http://cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/static/cfnews13/documents/george-zimmerman-commissary-0412.pdf
--george--april 12/2012--commissary order---

but last I heard from one of his friends or his brother, he wasn't able to eat.



~Jmo~

rossva
04-16-2012, 07:29 PM
BBM

George Zimmerman, so far, is not a criminal.




“So he’s concerned because he’s exposed to many people he doesn’t even know,” O’Mara added.

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/george_zimmerman_afraid_of_being_UWxL8AHEIjCLzlbwv 14seK#ixzz1sEy1xubi


Well, how inconsiderate of the jail officials, not to make sure all the other criminals in jail are people that GZ knows and approves of.

uvamerica
04-16-2012, 07:32 PM
“I still hope we can figure something out to get my client out safely, get him protected,” O’Mara said.

Will Fla. taxpayers have to foot the bill for GZ's protection out of jail ?

I do think he's better off in jail :moo:


Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/george_zimmerman_afraid_of_being_UWxL8AHEIjCLzlbwv 14seK#ixzz1sFUSZEzk

Isabelle
04-16-2012, 07:34 PM
“So he’s concerned because he’s exposed to many people he doesn’t even know,” O’Mara added.

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/george_zimmerman_afraid_of_being_UWxL8AHEIjCLzlbwv 14seK#ixzz1sEy1xubi


Well, how inconsiderate of the jail officials, not to make sure all the other criminals in jail are people that GZ knows and approves of.

Jailers need to set up a meet and greet for GZ!

Adrienne37
04-16-2012, 07:34 PM
Trayvon Martin's killer showed signs of injury: neighbors

SANFORD, Florida (Reuters) - Neighbors of George Zimmerman say he had bandages on his nose and head the day after he shot dead Trayvon Martin, supporting statements by the neighborhood watch volunteer that he was beaten in a confrontation with the black Florida teenager.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-florida-shootingbre83f19y-20120416,0,5993690.story

I'm reasonably sure he had bandages on his head but that doesn't mean there were injuries there. So Mr. O'Mara - why don't you go ahead and allow the release of Zimmerman's medical records from the visit at the doctor or hospital showing proof that he did have injuries and not just sticking bandaids on his head with nothing under them,



~jmo~

Isabelle
04-16-2012, 07:36 PM
He is isolated, but it must still be a scarry place.

Good, I'm glad it's a scary place. Not that GZ will know how scary it is to look down the barrel of a gun...!

momshrink
04-16-2012, 07:37 PM
:clap:

There is an upside though. Now instead of calling 911, he can just yell down the hallway.

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

IzzyBlanche
04-16-2012, 07:43 PM
With regard to George being afraid of being killed in prison.

Guess he's in favor of viligante justice only when he's the one carrying it out.

Velouria
04-16-2012, 07:54 PM
--maybe that's why---on day 1 in the slammer---george ordered 20 snack food items.

http://cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/static/cfnews13/documents/george-zimmerman-commissary-0412.pdf
--george--april 12/2012--commissary order---


I'm afraid to click on that link. Someone please tell me that there were no Skittles on the list! :confused:

IzzyBlanche
04-16-2012, 07:58 PM
Question for the legal types here: what would be the benefit of George waiving his right to a speedy trial?

TIA.

Adrienne37
04-16-2012, 08:00 PM
I'm afraid to click on that link. Someone please tell me that there were no Skittles on the list! :confused:

No Skittles only Jolly Ranchers.

uvamerica
04-16-2012, 08:02 PM
I'm afraid to click on that link. Someone please tell me that there were no Skittles on the list! :confused:


I noticed GZ bought men's briefs but 2 different sizes , medium and large, what's that about ? :waitasec:

Adrienne37
04-16-2012, 08:06 PM
I noticed GZ bought men's briefs but 2 different sizes , medium and large, what's that about ? :waitasec:

Well, considering all the junk food he bought and the fact that his friends/family talked about who much weight loss he had in the last 1-1/2 months, perhaps he figured he better buy both sizes to make sure he was comfy and snug as a bug in a rug.



~jmo~

magnolia
04-16-2012, 08:22 PM
Trayvon Martin's killer showed signs of injury: neighbors

SANFORD, Florida (Reuters) - Neighbors of George Zimmerman say he had bandages on his nose and head the day after he shot dead Trayvon Martin, supporting statements by the neighborhood watch volunteer that he was beaten in a confrontation with the black Florida teenager.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-florida-shootingbre83f19y-20120416,0,5993690.story

I'm reasonably sure he had bandages on his head but that doesn't mean there were injuries there. So Mr. O'Mara - why don't you go ahead and allow the release of Zimmerman's medical records from the visit at the doctor or hospital showing proof that he did have injuries and not just sticking bandaids on his head with nothing under them,



~jmo~

Rodriguez's wife Audria also said she saw the bandages and a third neighbor, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, agreed with the Rodriguez couple's account. "I saw two bandages on the back of his head, and his nose was all swollen up," said the witness, who had watched from a nearby second-floor window.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-florida-shootingbre83f19y-20120416,0,5993690.story

annalia
04-16-2012, 08:36 PM
I'm glad he's in PC, don't want to see any harm come to him, any vigilante justice against him only serves to turn him into the victim. Vigilante justice is just wrong no matter who it comes from.

He was the vigilante and Trayvon was the victim. He needs to stay healthy and answer for it in a court of law.

It is really ironic though that he's afraid now in jail because he doesn't know who these people are, or prior to his arrest he couldn't even go to the 7-11, has kind of a karmic feel to it.

JMHO

Adrienne37
04-16-2012, 08:37 PM
Rodriguez's wife Audria also said she saw the bandages and a third neighbor, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, agreed with the Rodriguez couple's account. "I saw two bandages on the back of his head, and his nose was all swollen up," said the witness, who had watched from a nearby second-floor window.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-florida-shootingbre83f19y-20120416,0,5993690.story

Well, hopefully we will get to see that very important medical documentation forthcoming because quite honestly, I'm not going to believe what anyone says until I see it for myself.


~jmo~

Velouria
04-16-2012, 08:39 PM
Rodriguez's wife Audria also said she saw the bandages and a third neighbor, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, agreed with the Rodriguez couple's account. "I saw two bandages on the back of his head, and his nose was all swollen up," said the witness, who had watched from a nearby second-floor window.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-florida-shootingbre83f19y-20120416,0,5993690.story


(http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/sports/jorge-rodriguez-PESPT006291.topic)Jorge Rodriguez (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/sports/jorge-rodriguez-PESPT006291.topic), Zimmerman's next-door neighbor, told Reuters that when he saw Zimmerman the day after the incident, "he had two big, butterfly bandages on the back of his head, and another big bandage...on the bridge of his nose." He was talking to a police detective in his driveway.

I find it a bit odd that the EMTs did not place bandages on GZ's nose or the back of his head on the night of the shooting. Also, if GZ had a big bandage on his nose as Mr. Rodriguez stated, then could the unnamed witness accurately determine whether or not his nose was actually swollen underneath when viewing from a 2nd story window?

Dr.Fessel
04-16-2012, 08:43 PM
Did either of those neighbors say he was crying?

annalia
04-16-2012, 08:48 PM
It's a shame, but given all that we've heard from two of GZ's neighbors, Taaffe and Oliver, I have a hard time taking what some of his neighbors might say as gospel truth.

If he was really that seriously injured then the medical records will come out at trial. We still don't know if that injury to his nose was his own fault from his gun, or whether or not he fell and banged his head. Still doesn't answer how Trayvon wound up face down with his head in the opposite direction of the sidewalk.

Isn't it nice for him though that his injuries didn't involve a bullet to the chest.

JMHO

Lovejac
04-16-2012, 08:53 PM
Wonder if GZ has any 'friends' willing to tough it out with him?

:moo:

Mr. Taffe???

Mr. Taffe!!

Paging Mr. Taffe!

annalia
04-16-2012, 08:55 PM
[URL="http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/sports/jorge-rodriguez-PESPT006291.topic"]

I find it a bit odd that the EMTs did not place bandages on GZ's nose or the back of his head on the night of the shooting. Also, if GZ had a big bandage on his nose as Mr. Rodriguez stated, then could the unnamed witness accurately determine whether or not his nose was actually swollen underneath when viewing from a 2nd story window?

And it has been pointed out, by several very astute people, that in the police report it stated that EMT's "cleared' him. It's one thing to say he may have refused treatment but quite another when it's reported that he was cleared by EMT's.


JMHO

Adrienne37
04-16-2012, 08:57 PM
Wonderful blog written about Trayvon's parents...

Trayvon Martin: Tracy and Sybrina have shown patience, restraint, and class

But for me, the most amazing thing I've witnessed during this tragedy is the patience, restraint, and class of the family of Trayvon Martin. Tracy Martin will never get to see what kind of man his son would have become. Sybrina Fulton will never get to hold her boy in her arms again. Their son was gunned down like a criminal as he walked through a neighborhood with a can of iced tea, a pack of Skittles, and a cell phone. At the same time, he was treated as the perpetrator of a crime never committed. His alleged killer, on the other hand, was treated as the victim who was only trying to defend himself.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lawrence-d-elliott/trayvon-martin_b_1421866.html

BetteDavisEyes
04-16-2012, 08:58 PM
No Skittles only Jolly Ranchers.

Please say it ain't so! :( I love me some Jolly Ranchers :D

Lovejac
04-16-2012, 08:59 PM
--maybe that's why---on day 1 in the slammer---george ordered 20 snack food items.

http://cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/static/cfnews13/documents/george-zimmerman-commissary-0412.pdf
--george--april 12/2012--commissary order---

Wow! I'm having CA commissary flashbacks. :rocker:

Lovejac
04-16-2012, 09:05 PM
Trayvon Martin's killer showed signs of injury: neighbors

SANFORD, Florida (Reuters) - Neighbors of George Zimmerman say he had bandages on his nose and head the day after he shot dead Trayvon Martin, supporting statements by the neighborhood watch volunteer that he was beaten in a confrontation with the black Florida teenager.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-florida-shootingbre83f19y-20120416,0,5993690.story

I'm reasonably sure he had bandages on his head but that doesn't mean there were injuries there. So Mr. O'Mara - why don't you go ahead and allow the release of Zimmerman's medical records from the visit at the doctor or hospital showing proof that he did have injuries and not just sticking bandaids on his head with nothing under them,



~jmo~

ITA!

I would rather see the EMT's records from that night.

Ask my 3 boys, I put bandages on unseen and non-existant injuries all day long.

BetteDavisEyes
04-16-2012, 09:06 PM
Teacher, students rally over firing at Pontiac Academy for Excellence

Brooke Harris says she was fired over Trayvon Martin fundraising idea, superintendent says that's not true

Author: Roger Weber, Local 4 Reporter

Published On: Apr 16 2012 05:53:26 PM EDT Updated On: Apr 16 2012 05:57:17 PM EDT

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/news/Teacher-students-rally-over-firing-at-Pontiac-Academy-for-Excellence/-/4714498/10933314/-/12tu6vq/-/index.html

badme102
04-16-2012, 09:06 PM
Whether or not GZ had injuries to the back of his head, nose or his baby toe doesn't really matter. I'm 100% convinced that he was the aggressor in every way, shape and form in this crime.
I have a strong suspicion that I'm not the only one that is 100% convinced--there is that pesky little matter of a 2nd degree murder charge GZ is facing.

If Trayvon got a few punches in before he was KILLED--Good for him! I would kick, scream, punch, gouge, and do whatever I had to in order to fend off some wacko, gun-wielding <mod snip>.

Velouria
04-16-2012, 09:09 PM
Whether or not GZ had injuries to the back of his head, nose or his baby toe doesn't really matter. I'm 100% convinced that he was the aggressor in every way, shape and form in this crime.
I have a strong suspicion that I'm not the only one that is 100% convinced--there is that pesky little matter of a 2nd degree murder charge GZ is facing.

If Trayvon got a few punches in before he was KILLED--Good for him! I would kick, scream, punch, gouge, and do whatever I had to in order to fend off some wacko, gun-wielding lunatic.

Or as my mom always said, leave them singing soprano. :angel:

Adrienne37
04-16-2012, 09:09 PM
Please say it ain't so! :( I love me some Jolly Ranchers :D

Yeppers, I'll never be able to eat another Jolly Rancher for the rest of my life.



~jmo~

Lovejac
04-16-2012, 09:10 PM
[URL="http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/sports/jorge-rodriguez-PESPT006291.topic"]

I find it a bit odd that the EMTs did not place bandages on GZ's nose or the back of his head on the night of the shooting. Also, if GZ had a big bandage on his nose as Mr. Rodriguez stated, then could the unnamed witness accurately determine whether or not his nose was actually swollen underneath when viewing from a 2nd story window?

I reckon she has x-ray vision? :waitasec:

Or really good binoculars?

BetteDavisEyes
04-16-2012, 09:10 PM
I noticed GZ bought men's briefs but 2 different sizes , medium and large, what's that about ? :waitasec:

Uuhhmm... He's concerned about his package :angel:

badme102
04-16-2012, 09:15 PM
Uuhhmm... He's concerned about his package :angel:

:silenced: :silenced: :silenced:

.....or that.

raeann
04-16-2012, 09:16 PM
ITA!

I would rather see the EMT's records from that night.

Ask my 3 boys, I put bandages on unseen and non-existant injuries all day long.

LOL....yes, over the years I have witnessed school nurses cure life threatening injuries with a snoopy bandaid and terminal stomach ailments with a peppermint candy!!!

grammieto5
04-16-2012, 09:17 PM
The neighbor who spoke only on condition of anonymity....I wonder what she watched from an upstairs window, I wonder if she watched GZ shoot Trayvon? And I wonder how long after GZ shot Trayvon did these witnesses see the swelling and bandages?

redkatrampant
04-16-2012, 09:18 PM
Whether or not GZ had injuries to the back of his head, nose or his baby toe doesn't really matter. I'm 100% convinced that he was the aggressor in every way, shape and form in this crime.
I have a strong suspicion that I'm not the only one that is 100% convinced--there is that pesky little matter of a 2nd degree murder charge GZ is facing.

If Trayvon got a few punches in before he was KILLED--Good for him! I would kick, scream, punch, gouge, and do whatever I had to in order to fend off some wacko, gun-wielding lunatic.

I agree whole heartedly , However I would not be shocked at all,no way,if his medical records had not been *tended to*.

ynotdivein
04-16-2012, 09:19 PM
Respectful bump/reminder...


<snip>

In this public forum, we need to stick to the facts of this case and that's our discussion here. Please, we ask that you do what you do best - SLEUTH THE CASE.

Looking for news links? Have you found a good MSM story you'd like to share? Please post these links in the Media Links No Discussion thread (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166507)


SOUND OFF Private Forum Companion Thread
Anyone feeling overheated or wishing to discuss the demonstrations, political, religious or racial aspects of the Trayvon Martin case, please check out our new forum in the private area of Websleuths accessible only to Websleuths members, called SOUND OFF.
Warning: Be sure to read the Required Read sticky post. Link to Trayvon Martin Sound Off (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168453)

mercuriod
04-16-2012, 09:22 PM
I'm afraid to click on that link. Someone please tell me that there were no Skittles on the list! :confused:

No Skittles, Jolly Ranchers instead.

uvamerica
04-16-2012, 09:22 PM
The neighbor who spoke only on condition of anonymity....I wonder what she watched from an upstairs window, I wonder if she watched GZ shoot Trayvon? And I wonder how long after GZ shot Trayvon did these witnesses see the swelling and bandages?

Good question as to the neighbor witnesses who saw GZ, because GZ didn't stick around very long for neighbors to see him for long, having fled the very next day after the shooting. :moo:

Adrienne37
04-16-2012, 09:22 PM
Uuhhmm... He's concerned about his package :angel:

Aww, c'mom now BDE. I didn't need to have that thought stuck in my head. :rocker:



~jmo~

mercuriod
04-16-2012, 09:24 PM
Rodriguez's wife Audria also said she saw the bandages and a third neighbor, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, agreed with the Rodriguez couple's account. "I saw two bandages on the back of his head, and his nose was all swollen up," said the witness, who had watched from a nearby second-floor window.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-florida-shootingbre83f19y-20120416,0,5993690.story

How can you see a "all swollen up" nose from a nearby second-floor window?

mercuriod
04-16-2012, 09:28 PM
Yeppers, I'll never be able to eat another Jolly Rancher for the rest of my life.



~jmo~

Guess I'll just have to stick to drinking my Jolly Ranchers:

2 oz vodka
1 oz Midori® melon liqueur
cranberry juice

Pour vodka and melon liqueur into a cocktail shaker, and fill with cranberry juice. Shake, pour over ice in a highball glass, and serve.

badme102
04-16-2012, 09:31 PM
How can you see a "all swollen up" nose from a nearby second-floor window?

Wow! Remind me to go that person's optometrist. :eek:

Something is so fishy about the entire story immediately after the shooting. I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist, but this one sure does stink! From LE to witnesses to GZ himself-something stinks bad. IMO

PaperDoll
04-16-2012, 09:36 PM
Whether or not GZ had injuries to the back of his head, nose or his baby toe doesn't really matter. I'm 100% convinced that he was the aggressor in every way, shape and form in this crime.
I have a strong suspicion that I'm not the only one that is 100% convinced--there is that pesky little matter of a 2nd degree murder charge GZ is facing.

If Trayvon got a few punches in before he was KILLED--Good for him! I would kick, scream, punch, gouge, and do whatever I had to in order to fend off some wacko, gun-wielding lunatic.


I've been lurking here for awhile now, but I'm tired of just lurking :blushing: I AGREE with your post. If GZ has any injuries to his body, then I believe that TM was DEFENDING himself from his attacker.

Isabelle
04-16-2012, 09:39 PM
[URL="http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/sports/jorge-rodriguez-PESPT006291.topic"]

I find it a bit odd that the EMTs did not place bandages on GZ's nose or the back of his head on the night of the shooting. Also, if GZ had a big bandage on his nose as Mr. Rodriguez stated, then could the unnamed witness accurately determine whether or not his nose was actually swollen underneath when viewing from a 2nd story window?

Funny how he didn't need the bandages until after he was released from SPD! He didn't want to give his neighbors the wrong idea.

BetteDavisEyes
04-16-2012, 09:41 PM
Aww, c'mom now BDE. I didn't need to have that thought stuck in my head. :rocker: ~jmo~

Sorry, A. :blushing:

jaded cat
04-16-2012, 09:48 PM
[I]Rodriguez's wife Audria also said she saw the bandages and a third neighbor, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, agreed with the Rodriguez couple's account. "I saw two bandages on the back of his head, and his nose was all swollen up," said the witness, who had watched from a nearby second-floor window.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-florida-shootingbre83f19y-20120416,0,5993690.story

BBm

Really? She could clearly see GZ's swollen nose from her 2nd floor window? Because I'm such a PIA about what's being reported, I had MrJC go outside and I looked at him from our 2nd floor window. Not knowing how many feet away she was, we tried it with him moving closer and further away, changing angles and posture. It is 6:45 pm here, sun is shinning and I can clearly see him. I could see his face but I wouldn't have been able to tell if his nose was swollen. In broad daylight. Sun shinning brightly.

How did this woman, from her 2nd story window, at night, with only porch and courtyard lighting , see GZ's swollen nose? Was there blood on his nose? Blood on his shirt? His jacket? Surely if she could see his broken nose, she could have seen these other details.

Here's the deal, for me, myself and I only. I wish both sides would, with the exception of parents, STFU! The story itself is tragic, it doesn't need embellishing or minimizing. It needs to stand alone, on facts and forensic evidence. Since not one member of the media has their grubby little hands on all the facts and all the evidence. SHUT UP! You don't know any more than the rest of the general public.

I wonder if TM's parents are being followed continuously. Maybe, left to themselves, they would say less. What they wanted to happen, has happened. Now, they can only sit back and wait for the slow wheels of justice to turn.

GZ's parents should be able to speak in defense of their son. No matter what they feel inside, he is their son and they should stand behind him. His
brother and casual acquaintances need to STFU because they aren't helping GZ at all.

:please:

MsCharlieChan
04-16-2012, 09:49 PM
Whether or not GZ had injuries to the back of his head, nose or his baby toe doesn't really matter. I'm 100% convinced that he was the aggressor in every way, shape and form in this crime.

Well said! However, I also think back to the Casey Anthony trial. A big part of the reason I knew she'd probably get off was because the State couldn't pin down how exactly Caylee died...

Was it tape? What it chlorophyll? Was it Xanax? And who had access to any/all of the aforementioned? Did George have the tape? Did Cindy look up chlorophyll a zillion times? Oh, chlorophyll really wasn't looked up *that* many times at all -- and the State knew it?! Yadda, yadda.

So, Angela Corey & Co. have to dig deep and figure out the blow-by-blow. There needs be clarity about GZ's medical records... Why didn't GZ have bandages when he was walking into the precinct? Did he go to Walgreen's that morning and buy bandages -- and the cashier saw nothing at all wrong with his nose?

The State can leave no stone unturned. Because there may even be evidence supporting that TM never laid a finger on GZ.

We see all the time that people shoot or cut themselves to make their story of self-defense, of being the victim, look better. Heck, I've limped around at work before to make it look good as to why I claimed to be arriving late. :fence:

If GZ is found to be lying or exaggerating his wounds, this will create doubt in other areas of his story. If AC can't weave together a strong picture of what went down, GZ will wiggle out of this just like CA did.

highflyer
04-16-2012, 10:03 PM
I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was the case. I've wondered how easily influenced GZ might have been.

Me too.

4Jacy
04-16-2012, 10:21 PM
First of all, GZ had no business getting out of his car, and was, in fact, told to stay in his vehicle and not pursue.

He did it anyway, and from his statements, he wasn't going to let this one get away. GZ is a <modsnip> individual.

He could have, if he really thought Trayvon was a threat, shot him in the foot. But no, little guy GZ had to be a hero that night!

< mod snip >

Mods, no threat here at all, just my observation.

CathyinTexas
04-16-2012, 10:27 PM
I'm sure GZ really is afraid of being killed in jail, but he is much safer in jail than he would be if sentenced to prison. In jail, he at least is in a one man lockdown cell. In prison he would not have that luxury. People are not going to forget GZ, and (prison) inmates are no exception.

In the course of 24 hours, he does come in contact with different officers at count time, shower time, and if he chooses his hour or so out of his solitary confinement cell. He will probably come in contact with trustees also.

If he is afraid at all, his shower time is probably his most vulnerable time, IMO. Imagine being naked and water running in the open stall shower, and an officer having to more or less watch your every move. GZ has no privacy whatsoever, but is in no danger of being harmed by officers. I would think that GZ is literally begging his lawyer to get him out of there.

Count time is done at least three times during the course of each shift and not always at the same times. During count time, his face cannot be turned toward the wall or covered. That can be intimidating to someone who isn't used to being awakened and ordered to show his face.

GZ is now in a place where he has no authority at all. He will have a very hard time adjusting, IMO. He has nothing but time and probably is constantly reliving the night he shot Trayvon. He has to stick with his original story, though.

George is really in no danger in jail, IMO. His big problems would definately come in prison if he is found guilty and sentenced.

This is of his own making and I certainly do not feel at all sorry for him.

MOO's

If GZ had shown distress at the scene or police station, if he had reached out to Trayvon's parents through his spokespeople or himself and told them he made a mistake about who Trayvon was and he is sorry that he shot him. But he was indifferent and relaxed (not shocked, imo) then he went on to paint Trayvon as a hoodlum and violent criminal, just compounding his guilt and lies, imo. So because of that I don't feel sorry for him.

Etilema
04-16-2012, 10:32 PM
I noticed GZ bought men's briefs but 2 different sizes , medium and large, what's that about ? :waitasec:

For fat days.

Actually, though, maybe he just wasn't sure which would fit.

Or he wants to keep us guessing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Emeralgem
04-16-2012, 10:36 PM
Did I hear he may have a bail hearing on Friday?

CathyinTexas
04-16-2012, 10:43 PM
Rodriguez's wife Audria also said she saw the bandages and a third neighbor, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, agreed with the Rodriguez couple's account. "I saw two bandages on the back of his head, and his nose was all swollen up," said the witness, who had watched from a nearby second-floor window.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-florida-shootingbre83f19y-20120416,0,5993690.story

Be that as it may, it was Trayvon who was screaming in pain and terror. Also, it is not surprising he would be hurt in a scuffle that he started. The ME on Nancy Grace said a nose can be broken from firing a gun when it kicks back and I believe, if his nose was broken that is what caused it. I do not believe that Trayvon punched him so hard that he broke his nose.

uvamerica
04-16-2012, 10:44 PM
Did I hear he may have a bail hearing on Friday?

I thought I heard (HLN) that now they've asked this judge to step down it may take longer for GZ to get bail ... :moo:

Chris_Texas
04-16-2012, 11:03 PM
Be that as it may, it was Trayvon who was screaming in pain and terror. Also, it is not surprising he would be hurt in a scuffle that he started. The ME on Nancy Grace said a nose can be broken from firing a gun when it kicks back and I believe, if his nose was broken that is what caused it. I do not believe that Trayvon punched him so hard that he broke his nose.

A nose COULD be broken from a 9mm recoil but it's bloody unlikely.

Reader
04-16-2012, 11:07 PM
I'm sure GZ really is afraid of being killed in jail, but he is much safer in jail than he would be if sentenced to prison. In jail, he at least is in a one man lockdown cell. In prison he would not have that luxury. People are not going to forget GZ, and (prison) inmates are no exception.

In the course of 24 hours, he does come in contact with different officers at count time, shower time, and if he chooses his hour or so out of his solitary confinement cell. He will probably come in contact with trustees also.

If he is afraid at all, his shower time is probably his most vulnerable time, IMO. Imagine being naked and water running in the open stall shower, and an officer having to more or less watch your every move. GZ has no privacy whatsoever, but is in no danger of being harmed by officers. I would think that GZ is literally begging his lawyer to get him out of there.

Count time is done at least three times during the course of each shift and not always at the same times. During count time, his face cannot be turned toward the wall or covered. That can be intimidating to someone who isn't used to being awakened and ordered to show his face.

GZ is now in a place where he has no authority at all. He will have a very hard time adjusting, IMO. He has nothing but time and probably is constantly reliving the night he shot Trayvon. He has to stick with his original story, though.

George is really in no danger in jail, IMO. His big problems would definately come in prison if he is found guilty and sentenced.

This is of his own making and I certainly do not feel at all sorry for him.

MOO's

No pity from me. He is alive. Trayvon is not. You reap what you sow.

JeannaT
04-16-2012, 11:15 PM
I'm sure GZ really is afraid of being killed in jail, but he is much safer in jail than he would be if sentenced to prison. In jail, he at least is in a one man lockdown cell. In prison he would not have that luxury. People are not going to forget GZ, and (prison) inmates are no exception.

In the course of 24 hours, he does come in contact with different officers at count time, shower time, and if he chooses his hour or so out of his solitary confinement cell. He will probably come in contact with trustees also.

If he is afraid at all, his shower time is probably his most vulnerable time, IMO. Imagine being naked and water running in the open stall shower, and an officer having to more or less watch your every move. GZ has no privacy whatsoever, but is in no danger of being harmed by officers. I would think that GZ is literally begging his lawyer to get him out of there.

Count time is done at least three times during the course of each shift and not always at the same times. During count time, his face cannot be turned toward the wall or covered. That can be intimidating to someone who isn't used to being awakened and ordered to show his face.

GZ is now in a place where he has no authority at all. He will have a very hard time adjusting, IMO. He has nothing but time and probably is constantly reliving the night he shot Trayvon. He has to stick with his original story, though.

George is really in no danger in jail, IMO. His big problems would definately come in prison if he is found guilty and sentenced.

This is of his own making and I certainly do not feel at all sorry for him.

MOO's

I feel sorry for him. He lived his life believing he's an energetic law abiding citizen, and he went to jail believing he was protecting his neighbors.

I also feel great empathy for Trayvon, and his parents. Both parents, but particularly his mother has pulled at my heartstrings. They have handled their horrible pain of loss with more grace than I could ever muster.

I feel empathy for everyone in this story. If only, if only if only is the mantra. If only one of these two young men had behaved civilly, their lives and their family's lives wouldn't be ruined.

Reader
04-16-2012, 11:16 PM
“I still hope we can figure something out to get my client out safely, get him protected,” O’Mara said.

Will Fla. taxpayers have to foot the bill for GZ's protection out of jail ?

I do think he's better off in jail :moo:


Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/george_zimmerman_afraid_of_being_UWxL8AHEIjCLzlbwv 14seK#ixzz1sFUSZEzk

He can always live with you, MOM...

jaded cat
04-16-2012, 11:19 PM
A nose COULD be broken from a 9mm recoil but it's bloody unlikely.

Would being in close quarters to each other make any difference? If GZ wasn't able to extend his arm to fire, could the gun recoil? :waitasec:

Reader
04-16-2012, 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by Donjeta
“So he’s concerned because he’s exposed to many people he doesn’t even know,” O’Mara added.

Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/nationa...#ixzz1sEy1xubi


Well, how inconsiderate of the jail officials, not to make sure all the other criminals in jail are people that GZ knows and approves of.

Exposed....like they have a disease or something?

He doesn't even know....so he has a problem with people he doesn't know? Oh right, we know what happens when George meets someone he doesn't recognize don't we? Maybe the other people there need protection from him!

jaded cat
04-16-2012, 11:26 PM
I feel sorry for him. He lived his life believing he's an energetic law abiding citizen, and he went to jail believing he was protecting his neighbors.

I also feel great empathy for Trayvon, and his parents. Both parents, but particularly his mother has pulled at my heartstrings. They have handled their horrible pain of loss with more grace than I could ever muster.

I feel empathy for everyone in this story. If only, if only if only is the mantra. If only one of these two young men had behaved civilly, their lives and their family's lives wouldn't be ruined.

BBM

That's the only part of your post I can take exception to. He went to jail because he acted foolishly. When he called 911, he was potentially protecting his neighbors. When he pulled out his gun, he became a potential criminal. The justice system will determine whether what he did was foolish and reached the level of criminal behaviour or if he was within the SYG, self defense, whatever.

IzzyBlanche
04-16-2012, 11:30 PM
Exposed....like they have a disease or something?

He doesn't even know....so he has a problem with people he doesn't know? Oh right, we know what happens when George meets someone he doesn't recognize don't we? Maybe the other people there need protection from him!

BBM

Only if they let him keep his gun. :moo:

JeannaT
04-16-2012, 11:32 PM
BBM

That's the only part of your post I can take exception to. He went to jail because he acted foolishly. When he called 911, he was potentially protecting his neighbors. When he pulled out his gun, he became a potential criminal. The justice system will determine whether what he did was foolish and reached the level of criminal behaviour or if he was within the SYG, self defense, whatever.

This may seem like a small detail to most, but to me it's huge.

GZ didn't call 911. He called the nonemergency number. It could have been an hour or who knows how long before LE showed up. I believe GZ thought he would have a long wait before there was any response, and felt the need to track Trayvon because no one from LE would be there anytime soon. And in GZ's mindset, this young man might commit a crime and then be out of there before the non emergency response arrived.

To me, that's important.

Talina
04-16-2012, 11:32 PM
I feel sorry for him. He lived his life believing he's an energetic law abiding citizen, and he went to jail believing he was protecting his neighbors.

I also feel great empathy for Trayvon, and his parents. Both parents, but particularly his mother has pulled at my heartstrings. They have handled their horrible pain of loss with more grace than I could ever muster.

I feel empathy for everyone in this story. If only, if only if only is the mantra. If only one of these two young men had behaved civilly, their lives and their family's lives wouldn't be ruined.

Based on the facts we know so far (not inference or conjecture) I'm really curious what behavior of Trayvon's that particular evening would be considered uncivil?

HMSHood
04-16-2012, 11:33 PM
Question for the legal types here: what would be the benefit of George waiving his right to a speedy trial?

TIA.

The 6th Amendment says this:

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

IzzyBlanche
04-16-2012, 11:35 PM
I feel sorry for him. He lived his life believing he's an energetic law abiding citizen, and he went to jail believing he was protecting his neighbors.

I also feel great empathy for Trayvon, and his parents. Both parents, but particularly his mother has pulled at my heartstrings. They have handled their horrible pain of loss with more grace than I could ever muster.

I feel empathy for everyone in this story. If only, if only if only is the mantra. If only one of these two young men had behaved civilly, their lives and their family's lives wouldn't be ruined.

BBM

We've been through this before, but I'll say it again: NO ONE can reasonably be expected to be civil to a stranger who is following them, or who confronts them.

So you must believe that TM's "incivility" was him jumping GZ as GZ claims.

JBean
04-16-2012, 11:36 PM
Question for the legal types here: what would be the benefit of George waiving his right to a speedy trial?

TIA.
IANAL but generally speaking the main benefit is it gives him more time to prepare his defense. But by that same token if the defense does not think that the prosecution is ready-it can be wise to request a speedy trial- so that the prosecution doesn't have time to make their case. All depends on circumstances.

ETA: come to think of it I wonder if the SYG hearing has any play in the right to a speedy trial.

Talina
04-16-2012, 11:36 PM
This may seem like a small detail to most, but to me it's huge.

GZ didn't call 911. He called the nonemergency number. It could have been an hour or who knows how long before LE showed up. I believe GZ thought he would have a long wait before there was any response, and felt the need to track Trayvon because no one from LE would be there anytime soon.

To me, that's important.

I've always felt that his call being to the non-emergency number rather than 911 was very important but not necessarily for the same reason as your post.

To me, him calling the non-emergency number rather than 911 tells me that whatever he observed about Trayvon that made him suspicious was not to the level of being an emergency (eg nothing criminal in his behavior). I then ask myself: If that is the case, then what was so urgent that he felt he couldn't lose sight of him and had to follow him so that he didn't get away?

IMO

IzzyBlanche
04-16-2012, 11:39 PM
The 6th Amendment says this:

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Thanks. Yes, I know the Constitution guarantees the right to a speedy trial. My question was, what benefit would GZ gain from waiving this right?

IIRC his lawyer said he didn't see the trial starting this year, or for at least a year, or something like that. I interpret that to mean that he will advise GZ to waive his right to a speedy trial.

So what would be the benefit to him for doing so? I would think the defense would want to get the thing to trial ASAP to give the prosecution less time to gather more evidence.

But I'm not a lawyer.

jaded cat
04-16-2012, 11:40 PM
This may seem like a small detail to most, but to me it's huge.

GZ didn't call 911. He called the nonemergency number. It could have been an hour or who knows how long before LE showed up. I believe GZ thought he would have a long wait before there was any response, and felt the need to track Trayvon because no one from LE would be there anytime soon.

To me, that's important.

Ok, if he thought his neighbors needed protecting, why did he call the non-emergency number? It can't be both ways. The dispatcher told him police were on their way.

He is not a LEO. He reported something he thought was suspicious. He fulfilled his duty at that point. When people call the non-emergency number to report something, the police are not obligated to rush to that location. They may be answering actual 911 calls, responding to real emergencies.

GZ didn't tell the dispatcher that TM was doing anything illegal at the time he called, or while he was on the line with him. GZ thought he looked suspicious because that's his mind set. It was laid out quite clearly in his conversation with the dispatcher.

The fact that he called the Non-Emergency is at the core of the matter.

Karmady
04-16-2012, 11:41 PM
IANAL but generally speaking the main benefit is it gives him more time to prepare his defense. But by that same token if the defense does not think that the prosecution is ready-it can be wise to request a speedy trial- so that the prosecution doesn't have time to make their case. All depends on circumstances.

I think, speaking very generally, that a guilty defendant benefits from a waiver and an innocent one does not. Here, however, the huge amounts of public attention play probably the most significant role. Overall, for that reason, I think delay until the whole matter slips out of the public eye and emotion dies down on all sides is probably in his best interest. Particularly since if the case is dismissed or he is found not guilty, it's not like he will get his life back any time soon, or ever, in fact. jmo

Karmady
04-16-2012, 11:44 PM
Ok, if he thought his neighbors needed protecting, why did he call the non-emergency number? It can't be both ways. The dispatcher told him police were on their way.

He is not a LEO. He reported something he thought was suspicious. He fulfilled his duty at that point. When people call the non-emergency number to report something, the police are not obligated to rush to that location. They may be answering actual 911 calls, responding to real emergencies.

GZ didn't tell the dispatcher that TM was doing anything illegal at the time he called, or while he was on the line with him. GZ thought he looked suspicious because that's his mind set. It was laid out quite clearly in his conversation with the dispatcher.

The fact that he called the Non-Emergency is at the core of the matter.

Because he wasn't sure? Just suspicious? And I may have this wrong but, I think by the time he said Trayvon was headed to the back gate he knew a car was on the way, no?

IzzyBlanche
04-16-2012, 11:45 PM
This may seem like a small detail to most, but to me it's huge.

GZ didn't call 911. He called the nonemergency number. It could have been an hour or who knows how long before LE showed up. I believe GZ thought he would have a long wait before there was any response, and felt the need to track Trayvon because no one from LE would be there anytime soon. And in GZ's mindset, this young man might commit a crime and then be out of there before the non emergency response arrived.

To me, that's important.

So if he thought he needed to protect his neighbors, why didn't he call 911?

It can't go both ways. Either he perceived Trayvon as a serious enough threat to his neighbors to call 911 (just like he did over, oh, the stray dog, for example) or harmless enough that he didn't need to bother, and could simply call the nonemergency number instead.

Not only that, the dispatcher told him, twice, that officers were on the way, so he knew it wasn't going to take them an hour or more to get there.

ETA: Jaded Cat, get out of my head! LOL.

JBean
04-16-2012, 11:46 PM
I think, speaking very generally, that a guilty defendant benefits from a waiver and an innocent one does not. Here, however, the huge amounts of public attention play probably the most significant role. Overall, for that reason, I think delay until the whole matter slips out of the public high and emotion dies down on all sides is probably in his best interest. Particularly since if the case is dismissed or he is found not guilty, it's not like he will get his life back any time soon, or ever, in fact. jmo
I think-in this case- both benefit for exactly the reasons you state. It is very wise, to put this thing out as far as possible so that the wounds are not so raw.

LinasK
04-16-2012, 11:55 PM
This may seem like a small detail to most, but to me it's huge.

GZ didn't call 911. He called the nonemergency number. It could have been an hour or who knows how long before LE showed up. I believe GZ thought he would have a long wait before there was any response, and felt the need to track Trayvon because no one from LE would be there anytime soon. And in GZ's mindset, this young man might commit a crime and then be out of there before the non emergency response arrived.

To me, that's important.
Then, if TM was such a threat, why call the non-emergency number instead of 911??? Is it because he cried wolf so often that he didn't think they'd come? Like calling on an 8-year old?

Reader
04-16-2012, 11:56 PM
Based on the facts we know so far (not inference or conjecture) I'm really curious what behavior of Trayvon's that particular evening would be considered uncivil?

Thanks! I didn't want to be picky but that phrase kept sticking in my craw!

Since I don't believe a thing George or his family and friends have said about what happened, and apparently neither does Ms. Corey, there is no evidence that Trayvon did anything 'uncivil' that tragic night.

George however did admittedly kill Trayvon and I call that uncivil and more, murder.

It's not uncivil to try to avoid and run from someone who is chasing you for unknown reasons and won't identify themselves or say why they are chasing you. It's not uncivil to fight for your life when attacked by someone who has a gun.

IMO

IzzyBlanche
04-16-2012, 11:57 PM
I think, speaking very generally, that a guilty defendant benefits from a waiver and an innocent one does not. Here, however, the huge amounts of public attention play probably the most significant role. Overall, for that reason, I think delay until the whole matter slips out of the public eye and emotion dies down on all sides is probably in his best interest. Particularly since if the case is dismissed or he is found not guilty, it's not like he will get his life back any time soon, or ever, in fact. jmo

Good points, but then again, there was a huge amount of public attention focused on Danielle Van Dam's murder, and David Westerfield's attorney did not waive.

Of course, that didn't work out so well for him.

OTOH, I am pretty sure I remember after the trial the prosecution saying they were processing evidence up until the last minute.

So maybe that was a wise move on Steven Feldman's part.

But then again, I don't see GZ's prosecution relying so much on trace evidence like fibers as in DW's case.

And why would GZ need so much time to prepare a defense? Isn't his defense self-defense/SYG? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

But I'm not a lawyer.

magnolia
04-17-2012, 12:07 AM
BBm

Really? She could clearly see GZ's swollen nose from her 2nd floor window? Because I'm such a PIA about what's being reported, I had MrJC go outside and I looked at him from our 2nd floor window. Not knowing how many feet away she was, we tried it with him moving closer and further away, changing angles and posture. It is 6:45 pm here, sun is shinning and I can clearly see him. I could see his face but I wouldn't have been able to tell if his nose was swollen. In broad daylight. Sun shinning brightly.

How did this woman, from her 2nd story window, at night, with only porch and courtyard lighting , see GZ's swollen nose? Was there blood on his nose? Blood on his shirt? His jacket? Surely if she could see his broken nose, she could have seen these other details.

Here's the deal, for me, myself and I only. I wish both sides would, with the exception of parents, STFU! The story itself is tragic, it doesn't need embellishing or minimizing. It needs to stand alone, on facts and forensic evidence. Since not one member of the media has their grubby little hands on all the facts and all the evidence. SHUT UP! You don't know any more than the rest of the general public.

I wonder if TM's parents are being followed continuously. Maybe, left to themselves, they would say less. What they wanted to happen, has happened. Now, they can only sit back and wait for the slow wheels of justice to turn.

GZ's parents should be able to speak in defense of their son. No matter what they feel inside, he is their son and they should stand behind him. His
brother and casual acquaintances need to STFU because they aren't helping GZ at all.

:please:
Who said the women saw GZ's swollen nose at night?



Jorge Rodriguez (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/sports/jorge-rodriguez-PESPT006291.topic), Zimmerman's next-door neighbor, told Reuters that when he saw Zimmerman the day after the incident, "he had two big, butterfly bandages on the back of his head, and another big bandage...on the bridge of his nose." He was talking to a police detective in his driveway.

Rodriguez's wife Audria also said she saw the bandages and a third neighbor, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, agreed with the Rodriguez couple's account. "I saw two bandages on the back of his head, and his nose was all swollen up," said the witness, who had watched from a nearby second-floor window.

BiancaS
04-17-2012, 12:10 AM
This may seem like a small detail to most, but to me it's huge.

GZ didn't call 911. He called the nonemergency number. It could have been an hour or who knows how long before LE showed up. I believe GZ thought he would have a long wait before there was any response, and felt the need to track Trayvon because no one from LE would be there anytime soon. And in GZ's mindset, this young man might commit a crime and then be out of there before the non emergency response arrived.

To me, that's important.

He was told that officers were on the way twice during the phone call. We're not talking New York City, on the way means they will be there shortly. In fact, they arrived about the same time as the shot was being fired, killing Trayvon Martin, just minutes after GZ completed his phone call. Walking in the rain while black is not a crime.

Karmady
04-17-2012, 12:11 AM
Good points, but then again, there was a huge amount of public attention focused on Danielle Van Dam's murder, and David Westerfield's attorney did not waive.

Of course, that didn't work out so well for him.

OTOH, I am pretty sure I remember after the trial the prosecution saying they were processing evidence up until the last minute.

So maybe that was a wise move on Steven Feldman's part.

But then again, I don't see GZ's prosecution relying so much on trace evidence like fibers as in DW's case.

And why would GZ need so much time to prepare a defense? Isn't his defense self-defense/SYG? Seems pretty straightforward to me.

But I'm not a lawyer.

I didn't follow that case, but I'm generally familiar with it. I don't think it was exactly the same kind of attention with all of the racial/political issues swirling around this case and the extreme nationwide media and public focus. I mean I heard about the Van Dam case, but nowhere near the extent I've heard about this one.

Plus, I think that, given the nature of the crime, there wasn't a large divide on what people thought should happen to him. I know most on WS feel that GZ should go to jail for life or worse, but I don't think that's the sentiment of every single person who hears about it. I think IRL, it's more of a 70-30 split and getting closer rather than farther apart from it's peak with the "racial slur" tape, etc. Child molester/killers, otoh, are more universally hated than just plain old killers. And I know that Trayvon was a minor, but I do think that b/c he's a male, was 17 and was not sexually assualted by a pervert, it's just different as far as the general public are concerned.

And, as you say, look how no delay turned out in Van Dam.

The forensic evidence is a good point, too. But here, GZ has admitted the shooting, so there is probably not too much evidence beyond the autopsy and some related trajectory/gsr issues that need to get done and come in. So delay isn't going to help with that. Hopefully, the eyewitnesses are locked in and so forth.

And to your last point about what does the defense really need? Probably not that much, but there is ALWAYS a way to drag it out even just with discovery, experts, scheduling, etc. And here, with the preliminary hearing, which also requires discovery and evidence. I would think that if MOM (is that what we're calling him?) wants to take his time, he can make sure that he doesn't see a jury for well over a year or more, at least. Probably a lot longer if he is really trying. jmoo

Isabelle
04-17-2012, 12:16 AM
Be that as it may, it was Trayvon who was screaming in pain and terror. Also, it is not surprising he would be hurt in a scuffle that he started. The ME on Nancy Grace said a nose can be broken from firing a gun when it kicks back and I believe, if his nose was broken that is what caused it. I do not believe that Trayvon punched him so hard that he broke his nose.

I agree completely about the gun causing a nose injury. The cheap gun he used has a history of a not so nice kick.

ThoughtFox
04-17-2012, 12:17 AM
Thanks. Yes, I know the Constitution guarantees the right to a speedy trial. My question was, what benefit would GZ gain from waiving this right?

IIRC his lawyer said he didn't see the trial starting this year, or for at least a year, or something like that. I interpret that to mean that he will advise GZ to waive his right to a speedy trial.

So what would be the benefit to him for doing so? I would think the defense would want to get the thing to trial ASAP to give the prosecution less time to gather more evidence.

But I'm not a lawyer.

Well, the Prosecution has lots of evidence right now, so more time wouldn't exactly help them. They know exactly what their case will be, while the defense might want more time to get to know George and what his strengths and weaknesses are. As we were talking about the other day, in Stand Your Ground cases the defendent usually has to testify and give his reasons for defending himself. This could be an indication that the attorney thinks that George will need plenty of coaching time before he is ready to face the Jury.

And I'm not a lawyer either, but after reading lots of cases over the years I can say that the tendency of defense attorneys is to delay, delay, delay and then delay some more. If this drags on for a year or more, you will probably be surprised with the reasons the attorney will give for delays, everything from illnesses of the defendent or his family members to things that happen with the public.

As time goes by, witnesses might move out of state or their memories fade. The more a witness wanders off from their original story on the witness stand, the better for the defense who can pounce on that.

Isabelle
04-17-2012, 12:18 AM
Exposed....like they have a disease or something?

He doesn't even know....so he has a problem with people he doesn't know? Oh right, we know what happens when George meets someone he doesn't recognize don't we? Maybe the other people there need protection from him!

I think there are deep issues that need to be explored to understand the person.

ThoughtFox
04-17-2012, 12:20 AM
Exposed....like they have a disease or something?

He doesn't even know....so he has a problem with people he doesn't know? Oh right, we know what happens when George meets someone he doesn't recognize don't we? Maybe the other people there need protection from him!
Yes, we know about his . . . uh . . . people skills. :angel:

:jail:

jaded cat
04-17-2012, 12:20 AM
Who said the women saw GZ's swollen nose at night?

Rodriguez's wife Audria also said she saw the bandages and a third neighbor, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, agreed with the Rodriguez couple's account. "I saw two bandages on the back of his head, and his nose was all swollen up," said the witness, who had watched from a nearby second-floor window.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/s...,5993690.story
Reply With Quote

This was in your post #56.

The phrasing of the article led me to believe she was referring to that night. If it was the next day, in broad daylight, after conducting my little home experiment today, I don't see how she could recognize a swollen nose unless she knew him well.

grandmaj
04-17-2012, 12:20 AM
This may seem like a small detail to most, but to me it's huge.

GZ didn't call 911. He called the nonemergency number. It could have been an hour or who knows how long before LE showed up. I believe GZ thought he would have a long wait before there was any response, and felt the need to track Trayvon because no one from LE would be there anytime soon. And in GZ's mindset, this young man might commit a crime and then be out of there before the non emergency response arrived.

To me, that's important.

Bolded by me. At 1:31 and again at 2:53 in the call he is clearly told that Officers are on the way.

Official George Zimmerman 911 Call (Trayvon Martin) - YouTube

Isabelle
04-17-2012, 12:23 AM
Ok, if he thought his neighbors needed protecting, why did he call the non-emergency number? It can't be both ways. The dispatcher told him police were on their way.

He is not a LEO. He reported something he thought was suspicious. He fulfilled his duty at that point. When people call the non-emergency number to report something, the police are not obligated to rush to that location. They may be answering actual 911 calls, responding to real emergencies.

GZ didn't tell the dispatcher that TM was doing anything illegal at the time he called, or while he was on the line with him. GZ thought he looked suspicious because that's his mind set. It was laid out quite clearly in his conversation with the dispatcher.

The fact that he called the Non-Emergency is at the core of the matter.

I don't think 911 would do this, but since GZ called so many times is it possible that they told him to call the non-emergency number instead of the emergency one? It's so rare that I always call 911 and they ask if it is an emergency.

IzzyBlanche
04-17-2012, 12:23 AM
I didn't follow that case, but I'm generally familiar with it. I don't think it was exactly the same kind of attention with all of the racial/political issues swirling around this case and the extreme nationwide media and public focus. I mean I heard about the Van Dam case, but nowhere near the extent I've heard about this one.

Nationwide attention no, you're right, but around here it was all anyone could talk about, and neither DW nor GZ were/will be tried on a nationwide scale, know what I mean?


Plus, I think that, given the nature of the crime, there wasn't a large divide on what people thought should happen to him. I know most on WS feel that GZ should go to jail for life or worse, but I don't think that's the sentiment of every single person who hears about it. I think IRL, it's more of a 70-30 split and getting closer rather than farther apart from it's peak with the "racial slur" tape, etc. Child molester/killers, otoh, are more universally hated than just plain old killers. And I know that Trayvon was a minor, but I do think that b/c he's a male, was 17 and was not sexually assualted by a pervert, it's just different as far as the general public are concerned.

I was discussing the Van Dam case at the time on the San Diego Union Tribune website, and I would say the guilty vs not guilty split was about 60%/40% before, during, and after the trial. IIRC correctly, DW had plenty of defenders here on Websleuths as well. I'm just saying there may have been more of a divide between people who followed the case closely than among those who didn't, both locally and nationwide.


And, as you say, look how no delay turned out in Van Dam.

The forensic evidence is a good point, too. But here, GZ has admitted the shooting, so there is probably not too much evidence beyond the autopsy and some related trajectory/gsr issues that need to get done and come in. So delay isn't going to help with that. Hopefully, the eyewitnesses are locked in and so forth.

And to your last point about what does the defense really need? Probably not that much, but there is ALWAYS a way to drag it out even just with discovery, experts, scheduling, etc. And here, with the preliminary hearing, which also requires discovery and evidence. I would think that if MOM (is that what we're calling him?) wants to take his time, he can make sure that he doesn't see a jury for well over a year or more, at least. Probably a lot longer if he is really trying. jmoo

Thanks for the discussion on the topic, I really appreciate it. :seeya:

Montjoy
04-17-2012, 12:29 AM
I noticed GZ bought men's briefs but 2 different sizes , medium and large, what's that about ? :waitasec:

The large size allows him to holster his water pistol during his Neighborhood Watch patrols of his cell.

Karmady
04-17-2012, 12:29 AM
Nationwide attention no, you're right, but around here it was all anyone could talk about, and neither DW nor GZ were/will be tried on a nationwide scale, know what I mean?



I was discussing the Van Dam case at the time on the San Diego Union Tribune website, and I would say the guilty vs not guilty split was about 60%/40% before, during, and after the trial. IIRC correctly, DW had plenty of defenders here on Websleuths as well. I'm just saying there may have been more of a divide between people who followed the case closely than among those who didn't, both locally and nationwide.



Thanks for the discussion on the topic, I really appreciate it. :seeya:


Back 'atcha. I probably shouldn't have commented on Van Dam since I don't know much about it and I'm sure you're 100% correct. I still agree with what I said about THIS case, though lol. I haven't seen this much racial tension in a very long time, if ever. jmoo

Cher352
04-17-2012, 12:34 AM
Question for the legal types here: what would be the benefit of George waiving his right to a speedy trial?

TIA.

I do wish Richard Hornsby was around to weight in on this.

Seems like I am never on-line when he is here. If any of you are next time he comes here please ask him this question. Thanks!

(I do so wish we had a lawyer thread for this case)

BiancaS
04-17-2012, 12:43 AM
The large size allows him to holster his water pistol during his Neighborhood Watch patrols of his cell.

LOL. One can hope that he will catch a large rat that can take the place of the 100 pound dog that so often accompanied him on his rounds (according to the authority of all things GZ, FT himself). We do want George to feel at home!!

Chris_Texas
04-17-2012, 12:51 AM
Would being in close quarters to each other make any difference? If GZ wasn't able to extend his arm to fire, could the gun recoil? :waitasec:

Sure, a 9mm has some recoil, but unless the thing caught you full in the face -- and it's hard to imagine that happening -- it probably wouldn't break your nose.

In short I think NG has watched a few too many youtube videos of people firing hand cannons and doesn't realize that there is a huge difference between, say, a 9mm and even a 44 mag.

Chris_Texas
04-17-2012, 12:53 AM
This may seem like a small detail to most, but to me it's huge.

GZ didn't call 911. He called the nonemergency number. It could have been an hour or who knows how long before LE showed up. I believe GZ thought he would have a long wait before there was any response, and felt the need to track Trayvon because no one from LE would be there anytime soon. And in GZ's mindset, this young man might commit a crime and then be out of there before the non emergency response arrived.

To me, that's important.

911 told him an officer was on the way clean back when he suggested Trayvon had pulled something from his waistband.

jaded cat
04-17-2012, 01:12 AM
I just listened to the call at the link provided to refresh my memory. While in the beginning the dispatcher said to keep an eye on what TM was doing, the question "are you following him", answer GZ "yes", statement dispatcher, "we don't need you to do that", answer GZ "OK", is at the very end of the conversation.

My problem with this call is GZ's credibility. I don't believe him when he says TM is fiddling with his waist band. I also don't believe TM walked up to GZ's truck and stared him down. Nopey, nope nope, don't believe it.

JMHO!
MOO!
IMHOO!

Concerned Papa
04-17-2012, 01:32 AM
Bolded by me. At 1:31 and again at 2:53 in the call he is clearly told that Officers are on the way.

Official George Zimmerman 911 Call (Trayvon Martin) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFRP545ZhP8)

He wasn't exactly a rookie placing these calls either. He knew what to expect in response time. Here's FORTY SEVEN of his calls. Take a look at the times of each:

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history.html#document/p44

fran
04-17-2012, 02:09 AM
I'm going to close up for tonite folks. See you all tomorrow.

:seeya:

fran

mercuriod
04-17-2012, 06:36 AM
This may seem like a small detail to most, but to me it's huge.

GZ didn't call 911. He called the nonemergency number. It could have been an hour or who knows how long before LE showed up. I believe GZ thought he would have a long wait before there was any response, and felt the need to track Trayvon because no one from LE would be there anytime soon. And in GZ's mindset, this young man might commit a crime and then be out of there before the non emergency response arrived.

To me, that's important.

First of all GZ was told TWICE while on the phone with non-emergency dispatch that officers were ON THE WAY, so GZ KNEW is was not going to be an hour. GZ "felt" the need to track Trayvon because GZ did not want another of THOSE a$$hole's to get away, and by damn GZ was not going to let him. Now just WHAT is THOSE to GZ, well he told us right on that call......BLACK.

I strongly suspect that GZ didn't call 911 that night because he had probably been warned by police that if he kept abusing the 911 system with his silly and unfounded repeated calls then charges could be brought against him, so he switched tactics and started abusing the non-emergency number.

mercuriod
04-17-2012, 06:43 AM
I feel sorry for him. He lived his life believing he's an energetic law abiding citizen, and he went to jail believing he was protecting his neighbors.

I also feel great empathy for Trayvon, and his parents. Both parents, but particularly his mother has pulled at my heartstrings. They have handled their horrible pain of loss with more grace than I could ever muster.

I feel empathy for everyone in this story. If only, if only if only is the mantra. If only one of these two young men had behaved civilly, their lives and their family's lives wouldn't be ruined.

"Energetic law abiding citizen"???? Law abiding citizen's don't attack law enforcement officers...or are you just trying to gloss over GZ arrest for that? Law abiding citizen's don't commit domestic violence against their fiance...or are you just trying to gloss over GZ restraining order for that? If "these two" young men had behaved civilly???? Just what PROOF do you have that Trayvon did not act civilly? Their lives ruined? Maybe you have forgotten Trayvon doesn't have a life anymore, GZ made sure of that when he murdered him.

Etilema
04-17-2012, 06:45 AM
I just listened to the call at the link provided to refresh my memory. While in the beginning the dispatcher said to keep an eye on what TM was doing, the question "are you following him", answer GZ "yes", statement dispatcher, "we don't need you to do that", answer GZ "OK", is at the very end of the conversation.

My problem with this call is GZ's credibility. I don't believe him when he says TM is fiddling with his waist band. I also don't believe TM walked up to GZ's truck and stared him down. Nopey, nope nope, don't believe it.

JMHO!
MOO!
IMHOO!

Me neither. From the beginning that sounded to me like a set-up so that LE would perceive TM the way GZ wanted them to and his self-defense story would hold.

JMO!

MsCharlieChan
04-17-2012, 06:56 AM
My problem with this call is GZ's credibility. I don't believe him when he says TM is fiddling with his waist band. I also don't believe TM walked up to GZ's truck and stared him down. Nopey, nope nope, don't believe it.

I've felt the exact same as you. I think GZ was making it all up re: "He's coming at me... he's reaching in his waistband..." etc. He was premeditating and concocting his defense right there.

1. Why didn't we hear GZ say on the recording, "Oh sh**, he's standing right here now!!! Hold on, let me roll window down and see why he's in this area, wandering around."

2. Instead, he says TM was running off, not trying to interact with GZ at all. If TM wanted to confront or fight, the dispatcher would have probably overheard TM telling off GZ when TM was allegedly walking toward the car with hand in waistband. IMO, the man is paranoid and not truthful.

3. After the dispatcher says, "We don't need you to follow him," GZ says "okay"... but you can CLEARLY hear that GZ hasn't stopped running after the kid. The windy-rush sound just keeps going and going, with neither of them saying a word for a while.

4. GZ's voice is *shaky* when he finally starts talking again. It is not from being too tired from running. It's from being ANGRY AS HE77 and READY TO EXPLODE. GZ is not huffing and puffing, out of breath. He is HOT and seeing red. A lot of people get a shaky voice before turning into the Incredible Hulk. :)

PS If TM allegedly broke GZ's nose, wouldn't GZ's blood have been on Trayvon's hands and elsewhere? GZ claims that TM put his hand over GZ's mouth to bang his head against the sidewalk.

So shouldn't there have been some GZ nose blood on one of TM's hands? The coroner or funeral director may be able to help prove or disprove a fight.

This could have been a total ambush, with TM never getting a lick in. IMO, GZ was 100% convinced this kid had robbed a house or car already. That's possibly why a neighbor saw GZ touching TM's dead body, face down. GZ was possibly looking for stolen jewelry or something... evidence that he'd done a good thing in killing a robber... but there was nothing but Skittles. Oops!

LiveLaughLuv
04-17-2012, 07:05 AM
George Zimmerman afraid of being killed in jail: lawyer
By DOUGLAS MONTERO

Last Updated: 4:22 PM, April 16, 2012

Posted: 4:19 PM, April 16, 2012




SANFORD, Fla. -- George Zimmerman is afraid of being killed while in jail facing charges of murdering Trayvon Martin, his lawyer said today.

“There has been an upwelling of hostility and animosity towards him that can find its way to you in many different ways,” Mark O’Mara said outside the courthouse in Sanford, Fla.

“So he’s concerned because he’s exposed to many people he doesn’t even know,” O’Mara added.

The lawyer talked to reporters after filing a motion to have Judge Jessica Recksiedler removed from the case because of a possible conflict of interest.



Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/george_zimmerman_afraid_of_being_UWxL8AHEIjCLzlbwv 14seK#ixzz1sIJFSkNg


BBM

Isn't he being held in protective custody? I'd just like to ask, how does it feel, GZ....

I guess if GZ doesn't know someone, he gets paranoid....I guess his being fearful would amount to the same feeling TM had...he too was fearful of this hulking man following him...Karma seems to be hitting GZ....a little at a time...

Is this to garner sympathy for the unsympathetic one...he had no sympathy for TM...why should anyone care..He is where he's at due to his own actions...he needed instant gratification instead of waiting for police to arrive on the scene..If he only watched from a distance TM could have made it to his door...:banghead:

Elley Mae
04-17-2012, 07:11 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/17/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Zimmerman's defense team formally requested Monday that Seminole Circuit Judge Jessica Recksiedler, the Florida judge assigned to their client's case, be removed after she revealed her husband works with a CNN legal analyst.

LiveLaughLuv
04-17-2012, 07:14 AM
i've felt the exact same as you. I think gz was making it all up re: "he's coming at me... He's reaching in his waistband..." etc. He was premeditating and concocting his defense right there.

1. Why didn't we hear gz say on the recording, "oh sh**, he's standing right here now!!! Hold on, let me roll window down and see why he's in this area, wandering around."

2. Instead, he says tm was running off, not trying to interact with gz at all. If tm wanted to confront or fight, the dispatcher would have probably overheard tm telling off gz when tm was allegedly walking toward the car with hand in waistband. The man is paranoid and not truthful.

3. After the dispatcher says, "we don't need you to follow him," gz says "okay"... But you can clearly hear that gz hasn't stopped running after the kid. The windy-rush sound just keeps going and going, with neither of them saying a word for a while.

4. Gz's voice is *shaky* when he finally starts talking again. It is not from being too tired from running. It's from being angry as he77 and ready to explode. Gz is not huffing and puffing, out of breath. He is hot and seeing red.

Ps if tm allegedly broke gz's nose, wouldn't gz's blood have been on trayvon's hands and elsewhere? Gz claims that tm put his hand over gz's mouth to bang his head against the sidewalk.

so shouldn't there have been some gz nose blood on one of tm's hands? the coroner or funeral director may be able to help prove or disprove a fight.

This could have been a total ambush, with tm never getting a lick in. I think gz was 100% convinced this kid had robbed a house or car already. That's possibly why a neighbor saw gz touching tm's dead body, face down. Gz was looking for stolen jewelry or something... But there was none. Oops!

Great post...I particulary like the bolded portion..best way to describe what I've been trying to say..I too believe he was seething with anger and very determined to not let another a**hole get away...that's his exicted utterance...makes his mentality known...his motive is clear..

I believe GZ did indeed ambush TM..which is why GZ claims Trayvon was coming straight at him...he was yards from his door..I believe GZ cut him off at the footpath, leading towards TM's home..that is when GZ 'ambushed'...had he only observed from a distance...:maddening:

suzihawk
04-17-2012, 07:14 AM
I'm late to the party once again and, although others have already commented, it doesn't stop me from adding my :twocents:.


I feel sorry for him. He lived his life believing he's an energetic law abiding citizen, and he went to jail believing he was protecting his neighbors.

I also feel great empathy for Trayvon, and his parents. Both parents, but particularly his mother has pulled at my heartstrings. They have handled their horrible pain of loss with more grace than I could ever muster.

I feel empathy for everyone in this story. If only, if only if only is the mantra. If only one of these two young men had behaved civilly, their lives and their family's lives wouldn't be ruined.

Gz's record shows he was not a law abiding citizen.

As others have pointed out, there is no indication that Trayvon was not behaving in a civil manner. Unless you think trying to defend his life is uncivil?? Or maybe walking while black?? The very nerve!


This may seem like a small detail to most, but to me it's huge.

GZ didn't call 911. He called the nonemergency number. It could have been an hour or who knows how long before LE showed up. I believe GZ thought he would have a long wait before there was any response, and felt the need to track Trayvon because no one from LE would be there anytime soon. And in GZ's mindset, this young man might commit a crime and then be out of there before the non emergency response arrived.

To me, that's important.

I, too, have wondered why he called the non-emergency number. Perhaps it was calculated in that he thought it would buy him a little more time to finally become the hero and catch one of these elusive a$$holes that always got away for himself. You know, the ones the cops were never even able to find, much less catch, themselves. ;)

vlpate
04-17-2012, 07:15 AM
First of all GZ was told TWICE while on the phone with non-emergency dispatch that officers were ON THE WAY, so GZ KNEW is was not going to be an hour. GZ "felt" the need to track Trayvon because GZ did not want another of THOSE a$$hole's to get away, and by damn GZ was not going to let him. Now just WHAT is THOSE to GZ, well he told us right on that call......BLACK.

I strongly suspect that GZ didn't call 911 that night because he had probably been warned by police that if he kept abusing the 911 system with his silly and unfounded repeated calls then charges could be brought against him, so he switched tactics and started abusing the non-emergency number.

He was with neighborhood watch, they have to call LE -- LE is part of the program. Besides, an average of six calls a year might be unusual for most of us, it doesn't seem "abusive". JMO

Do you really think all his calls were silly? At least one netted the arrest of 3 young burglars and the return of at least some of the items stolen.

vlpate
04-17-2012, 07:24 AM
I just listened to the call at the link provided to refresh my memory. While in the beginning the dispatcher said to keep an eye on what TM was doing, the question "are you following him", answer GZ "yes", statement dispatcher, "we don't need you to do that", answer GZ "OK", is at the very end of the conversation.

My problem with this call is GZ's credibility. I don't believe him when he says TM is fiddling with his waist band. I also don't believe TM walked up to GZ's truck and stared him down. Nopey, nope nope, don't believe it.

JMHO!
MOO!
IMHOO!

BEM: Are you listening to an abbreviated version? He says "ok" about 2 minutes into the 4 minute call.

I don't believe he stared him down either, I think, as GZ said on the call, he was staring at him and then coming toward him - this tells me he was "staring" from a distance. JMO

Elley Mae
04-17-2012, 07:26 AM
eighteenth judicial judges.


http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Judgepublic.pdf

magnolia
04-17-2012, 07:42 AM
Rodriguez's wife Audria also said she saw the bandages and a third neighbor, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, agreed with the Rodriguez couple's account. "I saw two bandages on the back of his head, and his nose was all swollen up," said the witness, who had watched from a nearby second-floor window.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/s...,5993690.story
Reply With Quote

This was in your post #56.

The phrasing of the article led me to believe she was referring to that night. If it was the next day, in broad daylight, after conducting my little home experiment today, I don't see how she could recognize a swollen nose unless she knew him well.

You are certainly entitled to believe what you wish. It is clear to me by the wording in the article, that neighbor saw what the Rodriguez's saw the day after the incident. S/he agreed with the R's account.






Jorge Rodriguez (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/sports/jorge-rodriguez-PESPT006291.topic), Zimmerman's next-door neighbor, told Reuters that when he saw Zimmerman the day after the incident, "he had two big, butterfly bandages on the back of his head, and another big bandage...on the bridge of his nose." He was talking to a police detective in his driveway.

Rodriguez's wife Audria also said she saw the bandages and a third neighbor, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, agreed with the Rodriguez couple's account. "I saw two bandages on the back of his head, and his nose was all swollen up," said the witness, who had watched from a nearby second-floor window.

LynnM
04-17-2012, 07:47 AM
One thing I have wondered about is whether GZ understood that calls on that non-emergency line were being recorded. A number of us have been saying that his story doesn't match up with the content and timing of the call and if we are right maybe that's because he felt free to add in or embellish some events (like Trayvon sneaking back after him and a fight that made him fearful of his life) that I just can't see fitting into the brief period between the end of the call and Travyon's shooting.

I have called the police department directly on a couple of occasions and it never occurred to me that the calls might be recorded.

vlpate
04-17-2012, 07:58 AM
I feel sorry for him. He lived his life believing he's an energetic law abiding citizen, and he went to jail believing he was protecting his neighbors.

I also feel great empathy for Trayvon, and his parents. Both parents, but particularly his mother has pulled at my heartstrings. They have handled their horrible pain of loss with more grace than I could ever muster.

I feel empathy for everyone in this story. If only, if only if only is the mantra. If only one of these two young men had behaved civilly, their lives and their family's lives wouldn't be ruined.

I agree - it's hard not to feel bad for him. I really don't think he knew what would happen that night in any way. It will haunt him forever -regardless of what happens at trial.

Shybrina does pull at your heartstrings, I pray for her strength.

suzihawk
04-17-2012, 08:11 AM
I agree - it's hard not to feel bad for him. I really don't think he knew what would happen that night in any way. It will haunt him forever -regardless of what happens at trial.

Shybrina does pull at your heartstrings, I pray for her strength.

Her name is SYBRINA.

Yeah... how could he possibly think anything could 'happen' while chasing down a child with a 9mm gun?! That gun didn't shoot itself - it didn't just 'happen'. IMO

magnolia
04-17-2012, 08:19 AM
Her name is SYBRINA.

Yeah... how could he possibly think anything could 'happen' while chasing down a child with a 9mm gun? That gun didn't shoot itself.

As has been stated many times before, Trayvon was not a child. Please post links to support your statement I have bolded. ~Thanks~


chasing down a child with a 9mm gun

vlpate
04-17-2012, 08:21 AM
Her name is SYBRINA.

Yeah... how could he possibly think anything could 'happen' while chasing down a child with a 9mm gun?! That gun didn't shoot itself - it didn't just 'happen'. IMO

Yes, I know her name is Sybrina - haven't put in my contacts yet!

I don't see how he could have been "chasing" him, although that sounds much more dramatic. I also don't think he had any intention of using his gun. You could hear him begging for help - I think he was horrified when he was yelling, but no one would help him. I just don't feel like shooting him was his intent until it was too late.

Donjeta
04-17-2012, 08:22 AM
FWIW I think probably worse things can happen if you chase down an adult because children are less likely to shoot you back.

CathyinTexas
04-17-2012, 08:34 AM
As has been stated many times before, Trayvon was not a child. Please post links to support your statement I have bolded. ~Thanks~

Is a teenager a child? Is a kid a child? He referred to Trayvon with both descriptions, so he knew he was a child, imo.

CathyinTexas
04-17-2012, 08:35 AM
Yes, I know her name is Sybrina - haven't put in my contacts yet!

I don't see how he could have been "chasing" him, although that sounds much more dramatic. I also don't think he had any intention of using his gun. You could hear him begging for help - I think he was horrified when he was yelling, but no one would help him. I just don't feel like shooting him was his intent until it was too late.

We know GZ was running and following him, so that equals chase, imo.

cityslick
04-17-2012, 08:35 AM
FWIW I think probably worse things can happen if you chase down an adult because children are less likely to shoot you back.

You don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that a 17 year old can have a gun, especially in that town?

suzihawk
04-17-2012, 08:35 AM
As has been stated many times before, Trayvon was not a child. Please post links to support your statement I have bolded. ~Thanks~

chase 1(chhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/amacr.gifs)
v. chased, chas·ing, chas·es
v.tr. 1. To follow rapidly in order to catch or overtake; pursue: chased the thief.
2. To follow (game) in order to capture or kill; hunt: chase foxes.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Chasing



Trayvon was, indeed, a child. He was barely 17 years old. As defined by law in this country, he's considered a child until his 18th birthday. Sadly, he'll never see that day.

Adrienne37
04-17-2012, 08:35 AM
As has been stated many times before, Trayvon was not a child. Please post links to support your statement I have bolded. ~Thanks~

As has been stated many times before, Trayvon was 2 weeks past his 17th birthday. In the good 'ole US of A, one must be 18 in order to be considered an adult; therefore, common sense dictates that a person who is under the age of 18 must be a child. I'd appreciate if you would provide links to the fact that Trayvon was not considered a child. Thank ya so much.


~jmo~

LynnM
04-17-2012, 08:36 AM
As has been stated many times before, Trayvon was not a child. Please post links to support your statement I have bolded. ~Thanks~

I think you are just going to have to agree to disagree with those of us who think that a 17 year old is a child. I have a 34 year old; I remember vividly when she was 17 and in no way was she an adult, not legally and not emotionally.

cityslick
04-17-2012, 08:37 AM
We know GZ was running and following him, so that equals chase, imo.

We do know he was 'running'? With his gun drawn?

CathyinTexas
04-17-2012, 08:40 AM
You don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that a 17 year old can have a gun, especially in that town?

I am surprised that so many people think what GZ did was okay. Of course, anyone could have a gun in Florida, apparently. But if he thought he had a gun, he should not have followed him, he was not LE! He did everything wrong, but yet some think he did everything right, including murder!

Adrienne37
04-17-2012, 08:42 AM
Trayvon Martin's Parents to be at Tampa Town Hall Meeting

TAMPA | The parents of Trayvon Martin are scheduled to join legal experts and political leaders at a public town hall meeting Thursday.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20120417/NEWS/120419394?Title=Trayvon-Martin-s-Parents-to-be-at-Tampa-Town-Hall-Meeting-

nomoresorrow
04-17-2012, 08:42 AM
(BBM)

As has been stated many times before, Trayvon was not a child. Please post links to support your statement I have bolded. ~Thanks~

Not old enough to drink, to vote, or join the armed services... not a child?!

cityslick
04-17-2012, 08:43 AM
I am surprised that so many people think what GZ did was okay. Of course, anyone could have a gun in Florida, apparently. But if he thought he had a gun, he should not have followed him, he was not LE! He did everything wrong, but yet some think he did everything right, including murder!

I never said I thought was GZ did was ok. I was responding to a post saying a child is less likely to shoot back.

CathyinTexas
04-17-2012, 08:44 AM
We do know he was 'running'? With his gun drawn?

We can tell he was running while talking with the dispatcher, that is why the dispatcher asked him if he was following him. We do not know if he had his gun out at that time, but I suspect he did, and if not then by the time he reached Trayvon, imo.

suzihawk
04-17-2012, 08:45 AM
You don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that a 17 year old can have a gun, especially in that town?

Can you explain what that means exactly? TIA

cityslick
04-17-2012, 08:45 AM
If a 17 year old shoots and kills someone, are they treated like a 'child' by the justice system in this country?

Yes, TM was a child but he wasn't 5 years old either.

Donjeta
04-17-2012, 08:46 AM
You don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that a 17 year old can have a gun, especially in that town?

Now I never said that, did I?
Someone said something about the dangers of GZ chasing a child and somebody else refuted it saying that TM wasn't a child and I made a remark intended to convey that chasing people who are older than children is not necessarily any less risky as chasing children and it may be more because adults and near-adults can be more deadly than children. (Just like GZ. Don't cross him in his neighborhood.)

Donjeta
04-17-2012, 08:48 AM
If a 17 year old shoots and kills someone, are they treated like a 'child' by the justice system in this country?

Yes, TM was a child but he wasn't 5 years old either.

Can you point to the post where it's said that he was five?

cityslick
04-17-2012, 08:51 AM
Can you explain what that means exactly? TIA

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/fl/sanford/crime/

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Sanford-Florida.html

It's not the safest place in the world...

vlpate
04-17-2012, 08:53 AM
We know GZ was running and following him, so that equals chase, imo.
When was he running? He wasn't running while on the phone - are you saying you think he was running after he got off the phone? I'm pretty sure he thought Trayvon was gone...

cityslick
04-17-2012, 08:53 AM
Can you point to the post where it's said that he was five?

It was an analogy. A lot of folks equate the term child with 'innocent' and as we have seen in our society, as a child gets older, they don't all turn out 'innocent'.

This is in general, not in reference to TM. As far as we know, TM was an innocent victim.

annalia
04-17-2012, 08:55 AM
As has been stated many times before, Trayvon was not a child. Please post links to support your statement I have bolded. ~Thanks~

As been stated many times by who?

A boy who had just turned 17 a few weeks prior to his death was most certainly still a child.

And that's according to the law.

I can't hire anyone Trayvon's age without them having working papers, and that because of those "child' labor laws.

No one Trayvon's age can vote, again, because they're not adults.

Do we really need to supply links for what should be common knowledge? :waitasec:

JMHO

Emeralgem
04-17-2012, 08:56 AM
First of all GZ was told TWICE while on the phone with non-emergency dispatch that officers were ON THE WAY, so GZ KNEW is was not going to be an hour. GZ "felt" the need to track Trayvon because GZ did not want another of THOSE a$$hole's to get away, and by damn GZ was not going to let him. Now just WHAT is THOSE to GZ, well he told us right on that call......BLACK.

I strongly suspect that GZ didn't call 911 that night because he had probably been warned by police that if he kept abusing the 911 system with his silly and unfounded repeated calls then charges could be brought against him, so he switched tactics and started abusing the non-emergency number.

BBM..IF true, could be his EGO took great offense to a verbal reprimand and he felt the need to prove to LE his calls to 911 did deserve merit..I'm not convinced he wasn't planning to kill Trayvon when he was on the phone with dispatch.... JMHO

cityslick
04-17-2012, 08:58 AM
Well, then exactly what is the reason for keep bringing it up?

I'm not the one arguing that he isn't a child.

Concerned Papa
04-17-2012, 08:58 AM
It's almost funny to hear the same point of view that so vocally cast doubt on a 16 year old girlfriend's statements, with phone records to back it up, because of a couple of weeks delay in hearing from her, being the same ones pushing the words of alleged "neighbors" who don't even show up as owners on the Seminole County Appraiser's site......TWO MONTHS after the fact.

http://scpaweb.scpafl.org/v3/

Adrienne37
04-17-2012, 08:58 AM
BBM..IF true, could be his EGO took great offense to a verbal reprimand and he felt the need to prove to LE his calls to 911 did deserve merit..I'm not convinced he wasn't planning to kill Trayvon when he was on the phone with dispatch.... JMHO

Great point Emeralgem.

Donjeta
04-17-2012, 08:59 AM
It was an analogy. A lot of folks equate the term child with 'innocent' and as we have seen in our society, as a child gets older, they don't all turn out 'innocent'.

This is in general, not in reference to TM. As far as we know, TM was an innocent victim.


OK, I didn't see the point of refuting something that nobody said about him being a five year old, but you intended to refute that he was an innocent child, except you don't really, because he is innocent as far as we know?

I am confusing myself.

grandmaj
04-17-2012, 09:00 AM
Good morning


:phone: Just checking my GPS to be sure I'm in the Hot Cases Thread and not the Sound off thread. :waitasec:

imamaze
04-17-2012, 09:00 AM
BEM: Are you listening to an abbreviated version? He says "ok" about 2 minutes into the 4 minute call.

I don't believe he stared him down either, I think, as GZ said on the call, he was staring at him and then coming toward him - this tells me he was "staring" from a distance. JMO

I didn't get the impression George was saying or hear him say that TM walked up to GZ's truck and stare him down.
I think TM was probably looking at GZ, but in the context of worrying about why someone was following him or watching him. He may have walked towards him to see if he could see who he was, but I don't get the impression GZ is saying he walked close to his car and stared him down.

Really I don't get the impression GZ is making up anything or trying to make up a story for self defense. I think that his frame of mind was that TM was up to something. Right or wrong or if he should have thought that or not, I do think that's what he thought.

I don't think GZ should have continued to follow him when he was told 'we don't need you to do that' and he said ok. He knew LE was coming and on the way. He was told that more than once.

I just keep coming back to GZ is the adult, he knew TM was a 'kid'. GZ had the gun, I just don't see how you can claim SYG when you are following and with a gun on you. I do think he thought TM was going to get away, but why in the world would you follow somone you fear? It just doesn't make any sense to me, and Who Cares if he gets away, its not worth losing your life or taking someone elses life imo. Why did it bother him so much?

I still don't understand how TM can be found face down with his hands under him and things be the way GZ said. Did GZ turn him over that way?

Your right though he said ok about 2:25 into the call, and I also agree with the staring down, I didn't take it that way at all.

Ima

Adrienne37
04-17-2012, 09:00 AM
It's almost funny to hear the same point of view that so vocally cast doubt on a 16 year old girlfriend's statements, with phone records to back it up, because of a couple of weeks delay in hearing from her, being the same ones so vocally pushing the words of alleged "neighbors" who don't even show up as owners on the Seminole County Appraiser's site......TWO MONTHS after the fact.

http://scpaweb.scpafl.org/v3/

So the neighbors are only renters in the community as well Papa? If that's the case, then I can certainly see why they might come to the "rescue" of the poor poor neighborhood watch captain.


~jmo~

magnolia
04-17-2012, 09:02 AM
Her name is SYBRINA.

Yeah... how could he possibly think anything could 'happen' while chasing down a child with a 9mm gun?! That gun didn't shoot itself - it didn't just 'happen'. IMO


chase 1(chhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/amacr.gifs)
v. chased, chas·ing, chas·es
v.tr. 1. To follow rapidly in order to catch or overtake; pursue: chased the thief.
2. To follow (game) in order to capture or kill; hunt: chase foxes.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Chasing



Trayvon was, indeed, a child. He was barely 17 years old. As defined by law in this country, he's considered a child until his 18th birthday. Sadly, he'll never see that day.

We don't know GZ was following Trayvon in order to catch him or overtake him.

You posted as fact,GZ was chasing a child with a 9mm gun. Are you stating as fact that GZ had his gun out at the time he was following the Trayvon.

Adrienne37
04-17-2012, 09:02 AM
I didn't get the impression George was saying or hear him say that TM walked up to GZ's truck and stare him down.
I think TM was probably looking at GZ, but in the context of worrying about why someone was following him or watching him. He may have walked towards him to see if he could see who he was, but I don't get the impression GZ is saying he walked close to his car and stared him down.

Really I don't get the impression GZ is making up anything or trying to make up a story for self defense. I think that his frame of mind was that TM was up to something. Right or wrong or if he should have thought that or not, I do think that's what he thought.

I don't think GZ should have continued to follow him when he was told 'we don't need you to do that' and he said ok. He knew LE was coming and on the way. He was told that more than once.

I just keep coming back to GZ is the adult, he knew TM was a 'kid'. GZ had the gun, I just don't see how you can claim SYG when you are following and with a gun on you. I do think he thought TM was going to get away, but why in the world would you follow somone you fear? It just doesn't make any sense to me, and Who Cares if he gets away, its not worth losing your life or taking someone elses life imo. Why did it bother him so much?

I still don't understand how TM can be found face down with his hands under him and things be the way GZ said. Did GZ turn him over that way?

Your right though he said ok about 2:25 into the call, and I also agree with the staring down, I didn't take it that way at all.

Ima

Grandmaj, I think the story about Trayvon walking up to Zimmerman's vehicle is the story that his father told in one of his interviews.


~jmo~

suzihawk
04-17-2012, 09:02 AM
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/fl/sanford/crime/

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Sanford-Florida.html

It's not the safest place in the world...

Thank you.

I don't see anything in those statistics that say the high crime rate is attributed to young black men or that it's perpetrated against them - either way. So you're suggesting that young men MIGHT be carrying guns in order to protect themselves in general, I guess?

cityslick
04-17-2012, 09:04 AM
OK, I didn't see the point of refuting something that nobody said about him being a five year old, but you intended to refute that he was an innocent child, except you don't really, because he is innocent as far as we know?

I am confusing myself.

I don't think a 17 year old should be looked upon as innocent as say, a 10 year old or even a 5 year old because someone that is 17 years old has as much ability to do harm to someone as an adult. I'm getting the impression when one says 'GZ chased down a child', that statement is meant to imply that TM was this meek little thing and I don't think that was/is the case.

LynnM
04-17-2012, 09:04 AM
If a 17 year old shoots and kills someone, are they treated like a 'child' by the justice system in this country?

Yes, TM was a child but he wasn't 5 years old either.

It depends. In my state, there is an amenability hearing in Family Court to decide whether a child, ie, someone under 18, would be amenable to rehabilitation in the juvenile system if found guilty. If so, then he will be tried as a juvenile. If not, he's tried as an adult.

Elley Mae
04-17-2012, 09:04 AM
It was an analogy. A lot of folks equate the term child with 'innocent' and as we have seen in our society, as a child gets older, they don't all turn out 'innocent'.

This is in general, not in reference to TM. As far as we know, TM was an innocent victim.

I'm the same when hearing "child" I think of a "elementary age" child. I don't think of a 6'3" almost 17 year old. Thats jut me.

Etilema
04-17-2012, 09:06 AM
Yes, I know her name is Sybrina - haven't put in my contacts yet!

I don't see how he could have been "chasing" him, although that sounds much more dramatic. I also don't think he had any intention of using his gun. You could hear him begging for help - I think he was horrified when he was yelling, but no one would help him. I just don't feel like shooting him was his intent until it was too late.

You could hear who begging for help? Zimmerman? It would seem most evidence we have suggests it was Trayvon begging for help.

vlpate
04-17-2012, 09:07 AM
As has been stated many times before, Trayvon was 2 weeks past his 17th birthday. In the good 'ole US of A, one must be 18 in order to be considered an adult; therefore, common sense dictates that a person who is under the age of 18 must be a child. I'd appreciate if you would provide links to the fact that Trayvon was not considered a child. Thank ya so much.


~jmo~

Teenager?

Cher352
04-17-2012, 09:08 AM
I really don't understand all the discussion about using the SPD non-emergency number. To me it seems the right thing to do unless you actually have an emergency such as a fire, car accident, some type of medical problem, etc. It also may be that SPD request that all Neighborhood Watch programs use the non-emergency line to report suspicious activity.

Even in the Neighborhood Watch sign posted at the gate of this community the non-emergency number is listed first.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/120328124340-burton-gated-communities-story-top.jpg

And then from Sanford's Q&A:


How can I report crime or suspicious activity in my neighborhood?

Call 911 if you feel there is an emergency or the Sanford Police Department non-emergency line 407.688.5199 for non-emergencies.
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/police/FAQ.html

cityslick
04-17-2012, 09:08 AM
Thank you.

I don't see anything in those statistics that say the high crime rate is attributed to young black men or that it's perpetrated against them - either way. So you're suggesting that young men MIGHT be carrying guns in order to protect themselves in general, I guess?

I never said black men. There is a lot of crime in that town. The one statistic I can't find is ages of those would perpetrate the crimes and how many gun crimes (although a theft could also be a gun crime if used to threaten) happen over a period of time.

vlpate
04-17-2012, 09:09 AM
You could hear who begging for help? Zimmerman? It would seem most evidence we have suggests it was Trayvon begging for help.

Yes, the witness said he saw the man on the bottom in the red sweater yelling help. Both parents say it is their child. I hear more than one though.

jaded cat
04-17-2012, 09:12 AM
You are certainly entitled to believe what you wish. It is clear to me by the wording in the article, that neighbor saw what the Rodriguez's saw the day after the incident. S/he agreed with the R's account.

Interesting that, seeing as how the R's were standing close to him and she was looking down from a 2nd story window.

I always believe whatever I wish and clarity is in the eye of the beholder.

Concerned Papa
04-17-2012, 09:15 AM
Instead of all this half baked "send in the family and pals" approach to telling his side of the deal, why didn't a truthful suspect show up in person for interviews with a doctor, x rays, and NON ENHANCED photographs?

With all of the intense media attention on this case, instead of sending his father and brother with mentally insulting tales of his actions that night, why didn't a suspect telling the truth DEMAND interviews on the sole condition that a nationally recognized polygraph expert also be present to strap him up and show the world what the truth sounds and looks like?

Instead of sitting in jail, cryin in his cell, he could have been sitting on a tropical beach somewhere, counting his money, IF HE WAS INNOCENT.

Etilema
04-17-2012, 09:16 AM
Yes, the witness said he saw the man on the bottom in the red sweater yelling help. Both parents say it is their child. I hear more than one though.

I think I may hear more than one, also; but I think that prolonged begging/wailing is Trayvon.

I am starting to think that Trayvon fought to get away, then GZ got the upper hand and when Trayvon didn't stop struggling, he shot him.

All pure speculation on my part, based on the evidence we have heard.

Cher352
04-17-2012, 09:16 AM
http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/fl/sanford/crime/

http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Sanford-Florida.html

It's not the safest place in the world...

How right you are. Sanford has been like that for decades if not longer.

Just last last night yet another drive by shooting there in an apt complex. This is the third one I have seen on the news in the last few week.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/sanford-police-and-fdle-investigate-shooting-apart/nMbFc/

Elley Mae
04-17-2012, 09:19 AM
I didn't get the impression George was saying or hear him say that TM walked up to GZ's truck and stare him down.
I think TM was probably looking at GZ, but in the context of worrying about why someone was following him or watching him. He may have walked towards him to see if he could see who he was, but I don't get the impression GZ is saying he walked close to his car and stared him down.

Really I don't get the impression GZ is making up anything or trying to make up a story for self defense. I think that his frame of mind was that TM was up to something. Right or wrong or if he should have thought that or not, I do think that's what he thought.

I don't think GZ should have continued to follow him when he was told 'we don't need you to do that' and he said ok. He knew LE was coming and on the way. He was told that more than once.

I just keep coming back to GZ is the adult, he knew TM was a 'kid'. GZ had the gun, I just don't see how you can claim SYG when you are following and with a gun on you. I do think he thought TM was going to get away, but why in the world would you follow somone you fear? It just doesn't make any sense to me, and Who Cares if he gets away, its not worth losing your life or taking someone elses life imo. Why did it bother him so much?

I still don't understand how TM can be found face down with his hands under him and things be the way GZ said. Did GZ turn him over that way?

Your right though he said ok about 2:25 into the call, and I also agree with the staring down, I didn't take it that way at all.

Ima

I wondered that as well. I play that part out in my mind and I have tried both ways. The both of them fighting in the standing position or both on the ground fighting. To me they would probably been standing, maybe lol If TM was shot standing (on his feet) could he have grabbed him chest (wound) then fallen forward to the ground. And then with GZ "reportedly" being over TM in the position of maybe holding the "suspect" down. Not knowing the shot was fatal. On the ground fighting and probably rolling around taking turns on the top and bottom then the shot is fired, if TM is on the ground when shot GZ may have turned him over to not see his face. If TM was on top when the fire was shot surely GZ would have had more blood on him. jmo

cityslick
04-17-2012, 09:19 AM
Instead of all this half baked "send in the family and pals" approach to telling his side of the deal, why didn't a truthful suspect show up in person for interviews with a doctor, x rays, and NON ENHANCED photographs?

With all of the intense media attention on this case, instead of sending his father and brother with mentally insulting tales of his actions that night, why didn't a suspect telling the truth DEMAND interviews on the sole condition that a nationally recognized polygraph expert also be present to strap him up and show the world what the truth sounds and looks like?

Instead of sitting in jail, cryin in his cell, he could have been sitting on a tropical beach somewhere, counting his money, IF HE WAS INNOCENT.

You think GZ is 'sending' this people to go and fill air time for him? I'm not so sure about that. I think these people are trying to keep getting their 15 minutes. And when you say, show up for interviews and a doctor, do you mean to the media? What does GZ going on a talk show do but only inflame the mob even further?

I will say it again, I want to see the report that GZ gave the LE in his own words, not this hearsay nonsense from his father/brother/friend/neighbor/long lost cousin/etc, etc.

Gin
04-17-2012, 09:20 AM
Teenager?

IMO/JMO
Florida--
Child= an unmarried person who is born, under the age of 18, and who has not been emancipated by order of the court.

Trayvon was a legally a child.

suzihawk
04-17-2012, 09:20 AM
We don't know GZ was following Trayvon in order to catch him or overtake him.

You posted as fact,GZ was chasing a child with a 9mm gun. Are you stating as fact that GZ had his gun out at the time he was following the Trayvon.


Nope. We don't know that for a fact, do we?. Although, it certainly wouldn't surprise me to discover he did.

Yes, I DO believe he was pursuing Trayvon in order to catch or overtake him. Further, I believe once he did catch up to him, he became frustrated and agitated that this perceived criminal in action in his mind didn't quietly and politely acquisce to his authority.

In my opinion.

LiveLaughLuv
04-17-2012, 09:21 AM
It depends. In my state, there is an amenability hearing in Family Court to decide whether a child, ie, someone under 18, would be amenable to rehabilitation in the juvenile system if found guilty. If so, then he will be tried as a juvenile. If not, he's tried as an adult.

Again, confusing criminal accountability to legal responsibility...

Legal age 18

Criminal age various depending on the viciousness of the crime a young teen commits..age 14, can be tried in a court of law as an adult..

Legally cannot buy beer, liquor, cigarettes, vote...until 21

can vote at 18 go into the military without parental consent...

Criminal age vs legal age is the difference...

waltzingmatilda
04-17-2012, 09:23 AM
There is a great ariel shot of the loong sidewalk at this link, 2nd photo down.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2130835/Trayvon-Martin-shooting-George-Zimmerman-fears-life-jail.html

From looking at this photo, I don't believe GZ could see where Trayvon went if his 'schruck' was parked in the curve where the truck is parked in the photo. I think he assumed Trayvon was headed to the back entrance when in fact he took a right down the long sidewalk between the buildings. So GZ goes straight over to retreat view to look for a house number because he states on the 911 call that TM is headed toward the back entrance but when he gets there he doesn't see Trayvon. At the point in the call when GZ begins giving his home address then says he doesn't want to give it out then in a low voice says I dont know where this kid went. I think that is when it dawned on him that TM didn't head toward the back entrance and cut thru the buildings and met TM on the sidewalk between the buildings. This would be when TM says to his gf 'he's back' then asks why are you following me and gz asks what are you doing here and Tm is disconnected from his call.

I just cannot fathom that a young man who is on the phone with his girlfriend would be the aggressor here. He had the security of knowing that he was on the phone and had a told a friend what was going on but GZ didn't know this, Trayon's earbud was under his hoodie. The only logical conclusion that I can reach is that GZ attempted to restrain Trayvon and they went down to the ground and that's when the call was disconnected.
This is the only way that I can account for the missing time and is akin to the scenario Concerned Papa has so kindly documented along with his maps.

OT sort of, but I'll try to connect this thought to the discussion at hand.

I taught in a classroom for Emotionally and behaviorally handicapped children in which I received training for diffusing violence and techniques for restraining students if absolutely necessary. (These kids were violent and a few had POs.) The handful of times that a situation escalated and I needed to use what I had been taught, the child would go straight down to the ground. IMO, this is human nature and also gives the aggressor/restrainer less control. I taught my kids this same technique if anyone ever tried to snatch them and we role played it. IMO, this may explain why/how Trayon was on top of GZ because GZ may not have expected or been trained for this reaction.

I'm still waiting for GZ's medical reports but I do think TM most likely got a few licks in as he fought for his life. (I don't think Gz's injuries were as severe as RZjr. claims.)

Heck, I am a small woman and learned to hold on tight and roll with the punches until the principal arrived. A few of these kids weighed as much as me and one was taller. I received a couple of bumps and bruises but no major injuries. This is why I question GZ's decision to pull out his gun and shoot a barely 17 year old kid.

:twocents:

wm

grammieto5
04-17-2012, 09:25 AM
This may seem like a small detail to most, but to me it's huge.

GZ didn't call 911. He called the nonemergency number. It could have been an hour or who knows how long before LE showed up. I believe GZ thought he would have a long wait before there was any response, and felt the need to track Trayvon because no one from LE would be there anytime soon. And in GZ's mindset, this young man might commit a crime and then be out of there before the non emergency response arrived.

To me, that's important.

If GZ thought he was protecting his neighbors from a crime why didn't he call 911? By a non-emergency number do mean GZ just called the police department?

mercuriod
04-17-2012, 09:30 AM
We don't know GZ was following Trayvon in order to catch him or overtake him.

You posted as fact,GZ was chasing a child with a 9mm gun. Are you stating as fact that GZ had his gun out at the time he was following the Trayvon.

He was chasing (ok, I'll be polite - following at a very rapid pace) Trayvon (a legal child), and he did have a 9mm gun on him, those are the facts.

Concerned Papa
04-17-2012, 09:30 AM
You think GZ is 'sending' this people to go and fill air time for him? I'm not so sure about that. I think these people are trying to keep getting their 15 minutes. And when you say, show up for interviews and a doctor, do you mean to the media? What does GZ going on a talk show do but only inflame the mob even further?

I will say it again, I want to see the report that GZ gave the LE in his own words, not this hearsay nonsense from his father/brother/friend/neighbor/long lost cousin/etc, etc.

I tend to think that a doctor who treated his broken nose, copies of the x rays of this broken nose, and photographs of his brutally damaged skull would carry more weight in an interview than a couple of "neighbors" saying they saw some bandages and swelling two month after the fact.

I think the truth and reasonable proof of the truth would have quietened the mob much more than preposterous tales that can not be true.

If he's innocent.

imamaze
04-17-2012, 09:31 AM
Well according to the 911 call GZ calls TM a 'kid'. Now I know that doesn't mean five years old or anything but he knew TM was a kid. He knew he was young. IMO I think that's what gave him the courage to continue following him. He wasn't afraid of him, that's why he was following him. In my opinion of course.

Ima

magnolia
04-17-2012, 09:37 AM
As been stated many times by who?

A boy who had just turned 17 a few weeks prior to his death was most certainly still a child.

And that's according to the law.

I can't hire anyone Trayvon's age without them having working papers, and that because of those "child' labor laws.

No one Trayvon's age can vote, again, because they're not adults.
Do we really need to supply links for what should be common knowledge? :waitasec:

JMHO

Trayvon was a 17 yr. old teenager. Was Trayvon referred to as a child before his death? No, IMO, he was referred to as a teenager. Why after this incident/his death, are people now referring to him as a child. :waitasec:

imamaze
04-17-2012, 09:38 AM
When was he running? He wasn't running while on the phone - are you saying you think he was running after he got off the phone? I'm pretty sure he thought Trayvon was gone...

It does sound like he was running while on the phone to me but he stops a few seconds after the 911 guy asks him if he's following TM. I guess none of us have any idea what happened after that. Was he confronted by TM? or did he continue to look for TM?

I'm sure this has been asked and answered before but could someone tell me how far away this happened from GZ's vehicle? Thanks.

Ima

Velouria
04-17-2012, 09:41 AM
I'm late to the party once again and, although others have already commented, it doesn't stop me from adding my :twocents:.



Gz's record shows he was not a law abiding citizen.

As others have pointed out, there is no indication that Trayvon was not behaving in a civil manner. Unless you think trying to defend his life is uncivil?? Or maybe walking while black?? The very nerve!



I, too, have wondered why he called the non-emergency number. Perhaps it was calculated in that he thought it would buy him a little more time to finally become the hero and catch one of these elusive a$$holes that always got away for himself. You know, the ones the cops were never even able to find, much less catch, themselves. ;)

BBM

Agreed, suzi.

There was only one participant required by the court to attend an anger management program, and it wasn't Trayvon Martin.

Aedrys
04-17-2012, 09:41 AM
Well according to the 911 call GZ calls TM a 'kid'. Now I know that doesn't mean five years old or anything but he knew TM was a kid. He knew he was young. IMO I think that's what gave him the courage to continue following him. He wasn't afraid of him, that's why he was following him. In my opinion of course.

Ima

That's a good point. He probably thought, if his ego is what I think it is, it would be easy to take on a kid. Maybe he drew his gun, thinking it would scare TM into submission. What I don't get, then, is why TM ended up being shot. Maybe GZ wasn't going to let no punk kid get the better of him? And I don't mean physically, but maybe TM said something that insulted GZ's intelligence or something? I just don't think GZ was ever afraid of TM. And I think he already had SYG in mind before anything happened. He thought he could use that to get away with whatever was going to happen.

I can't wait until this gets to court and I hear what the prosecution and defense put together on this. There are just so many questions that need to be answered!

cityslick
04-17-2012, 09:42 AM
I tend to think that a doctor who treated his broken nose, copies of the x rays of this broken nose, and photographs of his brutally damaged skull would carry more weight in an interview than a couple of "neighbors" saying they saw some bandages and swelling two month after the fact.

I think the truth and reasonable proof of the truth would have quietened the mob much more than preposterous tales that can not be true.

If he's innocent.

I only read the report once so I don't remember but, did it say he had a broken nose? I know it said he was bleeding from the head but I can't recall if it said broken nose.

The only people (if it's not in the report) saying he had a broken nose is this cast of characters that are parading in front of cameras. I don't deem them very credible.

Concerned Papa
04-17-2012, 09:42 AM
You think GZ is 'sending' this people to go and fill air time for him? I'm not so sure about that. I think these people are trying to keep getting their 15 minutes. And when you say, show up for interviews and a doctor, do you mean to the media? What does GZ going on a talk show do but only inflame the mob even further?

I will say it again, I want to see the report that GZ gave the LE in his own words, not this hearsay nonsense from his father/brother/friend/neighbor/long lost cousin/etc, etc.

I'd like to read it in it's entirety as well, but this article from the Orlando Sentinel with information from a leaked source gives a clear indication that he told essentially the same tale as his father and brother.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

Also, if you go to this post of mine, you can see an attachment from the City Manager of Sanford, verifying the Sentinel story as being accurate as to it's content.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #24

imamaze
04-17-2012, 09:43 AM
Trayvon was a 17 yr. old teenager. Was Trayvon referred to as a child before his death? No, IMO, he was referred to as a teenager. Why after this incident/his death, are people now referring to him as a child. :waitasec:

Well... I don't think TM would appreciate being called a 'child'. I don't know why they are referring to him as a child, legally he is I suppose. In my view I would think teenager as well.

Ima

Gin
04-17-2012, 09:43 AM
IMO/JMO
Florida--
Child= an unmarried person who is born, under the age of 18, and who has not been emancipated by order of the court.

Trayvon was a legally a child.


Trayvon was a 17 yr. old teenager. Was Trayvon referred to as a child before his death? No, IMO, he was referred to as a teenager. Why after this incident/his death, are people now referring to him as a child. :waitasec:

They are referring to Trayvon as a child because, legally, he was a child.

Velouria
04-17-2012, 09:43 AM
IMO/JMO
Florida--
Child= an unmarried person who is born, under the age of 18, and who has not been emancipated by order of the court.

Trayvon was a legally a child.

And as confirmed by the mods upthread, a minor on this forum.

Aedrys
04-17-2012, 09:44 AM
Trayvon was a 17 yr. old teenager. Was Trayvon referred to as a child before his death? No, IMO, he was referred to as a teenager. Why after this incident/his death, are people now referring to him as a child. :waitasec:

Because even as a teenager, his brain is still developing. He is not expected to have a job and pay for a home, car, etc. He is still very much a child dependent on his parents at 17. I would still call him a teenager rather than a child, but the definition fits. He was a child in mind and body, and GZ was the adult. Big difference between the two. I think some keep forgetting that and keep thinking TM was an adult just like GZ. That is just not the case.

suzihawk
04-17-2012, 09:44 AM
Trayvon was a 17 yr. old teenager. Was Trayvon referred to as a child before his death? No, IMO, he was referred to as a teenager. Why after this incident/his death, are people now referring to him as a child. :waitasec:

Umm... because he WAS.

I don't, for the life of me, know why we keep having to have this silly and senseless debate. Unless it's to illustrate that somehow he is less of a victim due to his age. ????????

cityslick
04-17-2012, 09:51 AM
I'd like to read it in it's entirety as well, but this article from the Orlando Sentinel with information from a leaked source gives a clear indication that he told essentially the same tale as his father and brother.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

Also, if you go to this post of mine, you can see an attachment from the City Manager of Sanford, verifying the Sentinel story as being accurate as to it's content.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #24 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7788590&postcount=826)

Thanks. There's not a whole lot of detail in that article and I don't see anything about 'broken nose', just that he was bleeding from the nose.

Adrienne37
04-17-2012, 09:51 AM
Umm... because he WAS.

I don't, for the life of me, know why we keep having to have this silly and senseless debate. Unless it's to illustrate that somehow he is less of a victim due to his age. ????????

That's exactly the reason for it in my most humble opinion.

grammieto5
04-17-2012, 09:52 AM
As has been stated many times before, Trayvon was not a child. Please post links to support your statement I have bolded. ~Thanks~

I disagree, Trayvon WAS 17 years old, GZ IS 28 years old. In this situation Trayvon WAS closer to be a child then an adult.

Donjeta
04-17-2012, 09:52 AM
Grandmaj, I think the story about Trayvon walking up to Zimmerman's vehicle is the story that his father told in one of his interviews.


~jmo~

Apparently it has also come from Zimmerman (via Chris Serino and Tracy Martin so this account is third hand at best)

Sanford police have stopped talking to reporters about the case, and Serino has never spoken publicly about his role in it, but here is how Martin recalls what Serino said: "He told me Zimmerman's story was that Zimmerman was of course following him and that Trayvon approached his vehicle, walked up to the car and asked Zimmerman, ‘Why are your following me?' Zimmerman then rolls his car windows down, tells Trayvon ‘I'm not following you.' He rolls his car windows up.

"Trayvon walks off. Zimmerman said he started running between the buildings. Zimmerman gets out of his car. He comes around the building. Trayvon is hiding behind the building, waiting on him. Trayvon approaches him and says, ‘What's your problem, homes?' Zimmerman says ‘I don't have a problem.'

"Zimmerman starts to reach into his pocket to get his cellphone, and at that point Trayvon attacked him. He says Trayvon hits him. He falls on the ground. Trayvon jumps on top of him, takes his left hand and covers Zimmerman's mouth and tells him to shut the F up and continues to pound on him.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403

Adrienne37
04-17-2012, 09:54 AM
Apparently it has also come from Zimmerman (via Chris Serino and Tracy Martin so this account is third hand at best)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403

Oh yes, thank you so much Donjeta. I had completely forgotten about Tracy's interview replaying what the SPD attempted to sell him.



~Jmo~

cityslick
04-17-2012, 09:56 AM
Because even as a teenager, his brain is still developing. He is not expected to have a job and pay for a home, car, etc. He is still very much a child dependent on his parents at 17. I would still call him a teenager rather than a child, but the definition fits. He was a child in mind and body, and GZ was the adult. Big difference between the two. I think some keep forgetting that and keep thinking TM was an adult just like GZ. That is just not the case.

BBM

That's where I'm going to disagree. When I look at a 17 year old football player, the word 'child' doesn't come to mind. Kid certainly, but not child but I guess it's just a matter of perception.

suzihawk
04-17-2012, 09:57 AM
Well... I don't think TM would appreciate being called a 'child'. I don't know why they are referring to him as a child, legally he is I suppose. In my view I would think teenager as well.

Ima

I'm sure he wouldn't. LOL Just as a 3 year old doesn't care to be called a 'baby' by their mother (or anyone else) even though they still are.

Semantics. Semantics being used to illustrate he is less of a victim for some reason.

IMO

Aedrys
04-17-2012, 09:59 AM
Apparently it has also come from Zimmerman (via Chris Serino and Tracy Martin so this account is third hand at best)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403

What's your problem, homes? That doesn't even sound like something a teenager would say. I don't even think "homes" is even used by teenagers anymore, unless I'm wrong?

And actually, wasn't GZ's cellphone already out? I know exactly what he was reaching for, and it wasn't a cellphone. Good Lord. What a unbelievable story. Yes, please take this to court and see how it plays out, GZ. I hope your lawyer is more competent than you and your family and friends' storytelling abilities!

LynnM
04-17-2012, 10:01 AM
Apparently it has also come from Zimmerman (via Chris Serino and Tracy Martin so this account is third hand at best)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403

This is exactly why I wonder if GZ didn't know his call was being recorded, because if that IS what he told Serino, we already know it's not true. There was NO exchange between GZ and TM before GZ got out of his car to pursue him, there is just GZ telling the operator that Trayvon has come up and looked at him. I will be very interested to see if GZ makes this claim on tape to the police because if so, it's a lie.

waltzingmatilda
04-17-2012, 10:02 AM
Apparently it has also come from Zimmerman (via Chris Serino and Tracy Martin so this account is third hand at best)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403

I question whether GZ knew his call was being recorded on the non emergency line because this is a bunch of bs IMO.

wm

Donjeta
04-17-2012, 10:04 AM
Anyway, if GZ really got out of his car and started following a suspicious teenager/child/adult/kid on drugs and up to no good after the aforementioned dangerous character has already brought it to his attention that he is not taking kindly to being followed it sounds like a death wish to me.

Elley Mae
04-17-2012, 10:06 AM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57415104-504083/george-zimmerman-had-bandages-on-nose-and-head-after-shooting-neighbors-say/

Rodriguez's wife Audria also said she saw the bandages and a third neighbor, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, said, "I saw two bandages on the back of his head, and his nose was all swollen-up."

The neighbors spoke to Reuters on Sunday and Monday. They said they felt they owed Zimmerman their public support after he was charged with second-degree murder.

Isabelle
04-17-2012, 10:06 AM
First of all GZ was told TWICE while on the phone with non-emergency dispatch that officers were ON THE WAY, so GZ KNEW is was not going to be an hour. GZ "felt" the need to track Trayvon because GZ did not want another of THOSE a$$hole's to get away, and by damn GZ was not going to let him. Now just WHAT is THOSE to GZ, well he told us right on that call......BLACK.

I strongly suspect that GZ didn't call 911 that night because he had probably been warned by police that if he kept abusing the 911 system with his silly and unfounded repeated calls then charges could be brought against him, so he switched tactics and started abusing the non-emergency number.

Agree completely. And possible GZ cut between the complexes in order to trap TM. He was not going to let this one get away!

Talina
04-17-2012, 10:08 AM
The other participant was on a 10 day suspension.

I don't see the relevance that keeps getting placed on TM's school disciplinary/suspension problems. It dies down then is resurrected.

For one thing, GZ had no way of knowing one iota about this teenager that he shot prior to the shooting. Another thing, GZ does not, to me, describe anything that sounds like suspicious behavior on his call to LE that fateful evening and lastly, had GZ witnessed or noticed criminal behavior that warranted him following to make sure TM did not get away before LE arrived, he would not have called the non-emergency number, IMO.

I think there are many, many areas of discipline meted out by schools that are not in any way, shape or form illegal. A 10 day suspension, while a strong suspension, is not necessarily equivalent to an illegal activity by someone else which resulted in charges and subsequent court ordered activities, etc. (GZ's legal issues).

I don't recall that any of TM's school disciplinary issues involved anything violent or aggressive at all.

It's all well and good to compare the backgrounds of the two people involved after the fact and then make justifications for what happened but IMO that is not a fair assessment of what happened that evening because neither knew each other and for all GZ knew, TM could have been the valedictorian of his class. He knew NOTHING about this teenager other than he didn't recognize him so this teenager's history or background played no part whatsoever in GZ's decision to not let this one get away.



IMO

Isabelle
04-17-2012, 10:08 AM
I've felt the exact same as you. I think GZ was making it all up re: "He's coming at me... he's reaching in his waistband..." etc. He was premeditating and concocting his defense right there.

1. Why didn't we hear GZ say on the recording, "Oh sh**, he's standing right here now!!! Hold on, let me roll window down and see why he's in this area, wandering around."

2. Instead, he says TM was running off, not trying to interact with GZ at all. If TM wanted to confront or fight, the dispatcher would have probably overheard TM telling off GZ when TM was allegedly walking toward the car with hand in waistband. IMO, the man is paranoid and not truthful.

3. After the dispatcher says, "We don't need you to follow him," GZ says "okay"... but you can CLEARLY hear that GZ hasn't stopped running after the kid. The windy-rush sound just keeps going and going, with neither of them saying a word for a while.

4. GZ's voice is *shaky* when he finally starts talking again. It is not from being too tired from running. It's from being ANGRY AS HE77 and READY TO EXPLODE. GZ is not huffing and puffing, out of breath. He is HOT and seeing red. A lot of people get a shaky voice before turning into the Incredible Hulk. :)

PS If TM allegedly broke GZ's nose, wouldn't GZ's blood have been on Trayvon's hands and elsewhere? GZ claims that TM put his hand over GZ's mouth to bang his head against the sidewalk.

So shouldn't there have been some GZ nose blood on one of TM's hands? The coroner or funeral director may be able to help prove or disprove a fight.

This could have been a total ambush, with TM never getting a lick in. IMO, GZ was 100% convinced this kid had robbed a house or car already. That's possibly why a neighbor saw GZ touching TM's dead body, face down. GZ was possibly looking for stolen jewelry or something... evidence that he'd done a good thing in killing a robber... but there was nothing but Skittles. Oops!

An adrenalin rush brought on by the excitement of the potential kill!

Gin
04-17-2012, 10:11 AM
Trayvon Martin met the legal definition of a child. End of story.

JMO/IMO

Children his age are sometimes referred to as teens, young persons, kidlets,etc, but that doesn't change their legal definition.

Is there any real information that will come from school records? Really?

Trayvon Martin was a child crime victim. He was murdered. We won't hear his "side" because he was permanently silenced.

I am a victim friendly advocate. I am glad steps are being taken toward justice.

Isabelle
04-17-2012, 10:12 AM
Apparently it has also come from Zimmerman (via Chris Serino and Tracy Martin so this account is third hand at best)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403

And this is the story told to Tracy Martin after if was decided not to charge GZ! Go figure!

Isabelle
04-17-2012, 10:14 AM
I don't see the relevance that keeps getting placed on TM's school disciplinary/suspension problems. It dies down then is resurrected.

For one thing, GZ had no way of knowing one iota about this teenager that he shot prior to the shooting. Another thing, GZ does not, to me, describe anything that sounds like suspicious behavior on his call to LE that fateful evening and lastly, had GZ witnessed or noticed criminal behavior that warranted him following to make sure TM did not get away before LE arrived, he would not have called the non-emergency number, IMO.

I think there are many, many areas of discipline meted out by schools that are not in any way, shape or form illegal. A 10 day suspension, while a strong suspension, is not necessarily equivalent to an illegal activity by someone else which resulted in charges and subsequent court ordered activities, etc. (GZ's legal issues).

I don't recall that any of TM's school disciplinary issues involved anything violent or aggressive at all.

It's all well and good to compare the backgrounds of the two people involved after the fact and then make justifications for what happened but IMO that is not a fair assessment of what happened that evening because neither knew each other and for all GZ knew, TM could have been the valedictorian of his class. He knew NOTHING about this teenager other than he didn't recognize him so this teenager's history or background played no part whatsoever in GZ's decision to not let this one get away.



IMO

I think a reason for this is that those who truly believe in the goodness of TZ have to continue to try to find something really bad about TM and it just isn't going to happen. I don't know what people's reasons are for this, but I do have my suspicions!

imamaze
04-17-2012, 10:14 AM
I don't see it as a senseless silly debate. I think people do wonder why he's continually referred to as a child. If you all do it for legal reasons, or you think of him still as a child, that's fine. I don't see anything wrong with asking.

I don't see that it matters anyhow. Child or teen, no one is trying to pretend TM is an adult. Regardless, GZ was the adult, I don't think anyone is trying to illistrate he is less of a victim because of his age, any more than I think him being called a 'child' is to make him more of a victim.

So just pass the question on by if you don't want to answer it but its a logical question in my view, not that it matters to me if he is a child or a teen, like I said GZ was the adult in this situation with a gun no less!

Ima

Aedrys
04-17-2012, 10:17 AM
And this is the story told to Tracy Martin after if was decided not to charge GZ! Go figure!

Well that explains a lot. No wonder that story was unbelievable. He or the person who told this story never thought it would be challenged in the least! I wonder if this is the kind of story GZ told Sanford LE? If they bought this...wow, just wow.

Isabelle
04-17-2012, 10:18 AM
The VICTIM, TRAYVON MARTIN, received a 10-day suspension as a disciplinary measure given by the school department, not ordered by a judge/court of law. Huge difference!

AMO~

My grandson knew exactly how to work the system. Whenever he wanted a vacation, he'd do something to get suspended. The school board and I went around on this many times.

nomoresorrow
04-17-2012, 10:19 AM
(BBM)

I don't see the relevance that keeps getting placed on TM's school disciplinary/suspension problems. It dies down then is resurrected.

For one thing, GZ had no way of knowing one iota about this teenager that he shot prior to the shooting. Another thing, GZ does not, to me, describe anything that sounds like suspicious behavior on his call to LE that fateful evening and lastly, had GZ witnessed or noticed criminal behavior that warranted him following to make sure TM did not get away before LE arrived, he would not have called the non-emergency number, IMO.

I think there are many, many areas of discipline meted out by schools that are not in any way, shape or form illegal. A 10 day suspension, while a strong suspension, is not necessarily equivalent to an illegal activity by someone else which resulted in charges and subsequent court ordered activities, etc. (GZ's legal issues).

I don't recall that any of TM's school disciplinary issues involved anything violent or aggressive at all.

It's all well and good to compare the backgrounds of the two people involved after the fact and then make justifications for what happened but IMO that is not a fair assessment of what happened that evening because neither knew each other and for all GZ knew, TM could have been the valedictorian of his class. He knew NOTHING about this teenager other than he didn't recognize him so this teenager's history or background played no part whatsoever in GZ's decision to not let this one get away.


IMO

RE: BBM ^^ It's called vilifying the victim.

AMO~

Isabelle
04-17-2012, 10:22 AM
IMO/JMO
Florida--
Child= an unmarried person who is born, under the age of 18, and who has not been emancipated by order of the court.

Trayvon was a legally a child.

And in the hospital I worked in he would be admitted to the pediatric unit where children are cared for until the age of 21, unless there was no room available and it wasn't a maternity patient.

Isabelle
04-17-2012, 10:25 AM
Good morning


:phone: Just checking my GPS to be sure I'm in the Hot Cases Thread and not the Sound off thread. :waitasec:

Grandmaj: I have one word for your cute, active avatar: caffeine-free!

Isabelle
04-17-2012, 10:30 AM
How right you are. Sanford has been like that for decades if not longer.

Just last last night yet another drive by shooting there in an apt complex. This is the third one I have seen on the news in the last few week.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/sanford-police-and-fdle-investigate-shooting-apart/nMbFc/

Did you see the comments below? LOL

suzihawk
04-17-2012, 10:33 AM
I don't see it as a senseless silly debate. I think people do wonder why he's continually referred to as a child. If you all do it for legal reasons, or you think of him still as a child, that's fine. I don't see anything wrong with asking.

I don't see that it matters anyhow. Child or teen, no one is trying to pretend TM is an adult. Regardless, GZ was the adult, I don't think anyone is trying to illistrate he is less of a victim because of his age, any more than I think him being called a 'child' is to make him more of a victim.

So just pass the question on by if you don't want to answer it but its a logical question in my view, not that it matters to me if he is a child or a teen, like I said GZ was the adult in this situation with a gun no less!

Ima

I respectfully disagree, Ima. Some seem to have a vested interest in defending GZ's actions by considering and declaring Trayvon a full on adult, IMO

On the other hand, I don't understand how Trayvon can be considered MORE of a victim because he was underage according the the law. He was shot dead. Dead is DEAD. How can one be MORE of a victim than that by virtue of his age?

JMO

LiveLaughLuv
04-17-2012, 10:37 AM
What's your problem, homes? That doesn't even sound like something a teenager would say. I don't even think "homes" is even used by teenagers anymore, unless I'm wrong?

And actually, wasn't GZ's cellphone already out? I know exactly what he was reaching for, and it wasn't a cellphone. Good Lord. What a unbelievable story. Yes, please take this to court and see how it plays out, GZ. I hope your lawyer is more competent than you and your family and friends' storytelling abilities!

True...Homes was used back in the day...I believe today the word 'son' is used...I hear it all the time...Yo' son, wanna play some bball...:what:

I believe those are GZ's own words to again support his SYG defense..along with the mini western of, you're gonna die tonight, you got me...all out of the mouth of one I consider to be incredible...

LiveLaughLuv
04-17-2012, 10:42 AM
What's your problem, homes? That doesn't even sound like something a teenager would say. I don't even think "homes" is even used by teenagers anymore, unless I'm wrong?

And actually, wasn't GZ's cellphone already out? I know exactly what he was reaching for, and it wasn't a cellphone. Good Lord. What a unbelievable story. Yes, please take this to court and see how it plays out, GZ. I hope your lawyer is more competent than you and your family and friends' storytelling abilities!

Homes was used back in the say, today the word 'son' is used..I hear it all the time...Yo' son, wanna play some bball...

One witness describes GZ with gun in one hand and the other hand on Trayvon's back as he straddled his fallen body..so I don't believe he had the cellphone in his hand at that point..

Elley Mae
04-17-2012, 10:42 AM
http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/4/16/trayvon_martin_attor

In a motion filed Monday, the press asked Seminole Circuit Judge Mark Herr to unseal the documents, which includes evidence the state will present to Zimmerman's attorney.

Herr and Zimmerman's attorneys agreed to seal the documents, without signing an official order.

At the end of the affidavit, it says that the facts "are not a complete recitation of all the pertinent facts and evidence in this case but only are presented for a determination of Probable Cause for Second Degree Murder."