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imamaze
04-20-2012, 05:28 PM
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Thread #1 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165269&highlight=Trayvon)
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TonyGatto
04-20-2012, 05:32 PM
What will GZ's answer be when he is asked how he, TM and his gun ended up where they did -- even though GZ was headed back to his car?

nomoresorrow
04-20-2012, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by Cher352;
JMO..but in that picture it looks like he is sitting with his legs crossed on the grass. I think that dark grey area on the right is the knee of pants.


JMO but it looks like it's his arm bent, holding his phone up to his ear.

BritsKate
04-20-2012, 05:37 PM
Carried over from last thread:


And if it is confirmed by the EMT's what will your position be then?

I am just curious about what it will take to convince people that this was self defense.

I know what it will take to convince me this was murder. It will take the State proving that GZ continued to follow TM and was the aggressor. Then I will firmly believe he should be held responsible. Right now I am going by what I know and when the 911 dispatcher said "we don't need to do that" I heard GZ say "okay". When I see evidence that he wasn't heading back to his truck as he claims, I will change my opinion.

I'm not going to be sitting on the jury anyway but my personal burden to believe this was a justifiable homicide is much higher than anything released so far.

Unarmed kid. No history of violence. Walking home with candy.

Armed adult. Alleged history of violence. Leaves vehicle in pursuit of unarmed kid. Lack of life threatening or even particularly severe injuries. (Even if he returned to the vehicle though the intent was initially there to follow Trayvon. Why? For what reason other than to confront or detain him?)

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 05:38 PM
What will GZ's answer be when he is asked how he, TM and his gun ended up where they did -- even though GZ was headed back to his car?

I guess this is part of the story where "Trayvon jumps George from behind." So I guess Trayvon was hiding in wait as George passed the open area the first time and he made it all the way to the other side to get the address... on the way back... I guess Trayvon just says "What the hay!!" and jumps George from behind! How they got so far down that sidewalk?? I have no idea?? Trayvon had to have dragged him pretty far?

MOO

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 05:42 PM
I want to know what that email says that George can't remember writing?? I guess it's supposed to be about Tracy?? I bet the FDLE has been keeping a realllll close eye on George and his computer activity! His website alone is damaging and shows a man with no remorse. I am going to fall out if he had the audacity to write negative things about Tracy Martin and then get up in that courtroom and apologize for killing their son!

Hope we get a doc. dump on Monday!

TonyGatto
04-20-2012, 05:43 PM
I guess this is part of the story where "Trayvon jumps George from behind." So I guess Trayvon was hiding in wait as George passed the open area the first time and he made it all the way to the other side to get the address... on the way back... I guess Trayvon just says "What the hay!!" and jumps George from behind! How they got so far down that sidewalk?? I have no idea?? Trayvon had to have dragged him pretty far?

MOO

That's why prosecutors are confident and brought a murder charge. It's all fine when people believe GZ, saying he walked back toward his car and was attacked. But when he is cross-examined, it will not stand. I still think a murder conviction is going to be difficult -- but at this point I think a manslaughter conviction is looking like a slam dunk.

littlestix
04-20-2012, 05:45 PM
JMO but it looks like it's his arm bent, holding his phone up to his ear.

This is the way I see it also.

annalia
04-20-2012, 05:49 PM
I want to know what that email says that George can't remember writing?? I guess it's supposed to be about Tracy?? I bet the FDLE has been keeping a realllll close eye on George and his computer activity! His website alone is damaging and shows a man with no remorse. I am going to fall out if he had the audacity to write negative things about Tracy Martin and then get up in that courtroom and apologize for killing their son!

Hope we get a doc. dump on Monday!

Yeah, WTH was that all about?? And who did he send the email to? And how did police find it?

ETA: Ok it seems that it was a text message not an email, so police would have gotten it off of his phone.

magnolia
04-20-2012, 05:49 PM
That's why prosecutors are confident and brought a murder charge. It's all fine when people believe GZ, saying he walked back toward his car and was attacked. But when he is cross-examined, it will not stand. I still think a murder conviction is going to be difficult -- but at this point I think a manslaughter conviction is looking like a slam dunk.


I think we are jumping a little ahead. It is possible he may be granted immunity before it gets to a Jury trial.

i.b.nora
04-20-2012, 05:49 PM
I think the photo was taken by that witness, John, from his second floor porch or window. I think it was given to O'Mara and O'Mara supplied it to ABCNews. That's what I think.

lauriej
04-20-2012, 05:49 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/george-zimmerman-apologizes-to-trayvon-s-parents-in-court-29026947.html#crsl=%252Fvideo%252Fus-15749625%252Fgeorge-zimmerman-apologizes-to-trayvon-s-parents-in-court-29026947.html

--george takes the stand-----6:01

IMO--his 'apology' enunciation is so weird---"I wan-ted to say, I am sor-ry...."

belle3
04-20-2012, 05:51 PM
Did the sa have or going to have a,press conference today?

TonyGatto
04-20-2012, 05:52 PM
I think we are jumping a little ahead. It is possible he may be granted immunity before it gets to a Jury trial.

You mean he will win on "stand your ground" -- pre-trial? Doubt that severely.

m00c0w
04-20-2012, 05:52 PM
I think the photo was taken by that witness, John, from his second floor porch or window. I think it was given to O'Mara and O'Mara supplied it to ABCNews. That's what I think.

I think it was relatively close because of how the flash blew out the exposure on the top of his head.

Melanie
04-20-2012, 05:52 PM
What's been bugging me all day is how GZ (what I perceived to be) lied on the stand during his apology today. He said (unless my ears are wonky) that he thought TM was I thought he was a little bit younger than I am or words to that effect. Yet in the 911 call he said something completely different.

Dispatcher

How old would you say he looks?

Zimmerman

He's got button on his shirt, late teens.


Late teens is 17 or 18. George Zimmerman is 28.

That's a bit of a stretch isn't it? I'm all for a fair trial, and I have my own thoughts on this, but it shouldn't be based on lies. what exactly is closer to 28? 25? Does TM look like he was 25 years old? My son isn't much younger than TM (15 in July) and wouldn't be able to pass off as 18!

So yah, this testimony frustrated the heck out of me.

MOO

Mel

BritsKate
04-20-2012, 05:55 PM
If I entertained any doubts about a murder charge versus manslaughter Zimmerman's non-apology apology erased them.

annalia
04-20-2012, 05:55 PM
Did the sa have or going to have a,press conference today?

The only thing I heard today was a comment that we haven't seen all of the evidence and we have to wait for the trial.

JMHO

Melanie
04-20-2012, 05:58 PM
Does anyone know if he's made bail yet? Or will that be secretive and he will be whisked away ala Anthony style?

lauriej
04-20-2012, 06:00 PM
What's been bugging me all day is how GZ (what I perceived to be) lied on the stand during his apology today. He said (unless my ears are wonky) that he thought TM was I thought he was a little bit younger than I am or words to that effect. Yet in the 911 call he said something completely different.

Dispatcher

How old would you say he looks?

Zimmerman

He's got button on his shirt, late teens.


Late teens is 17 or 18. George Zimmerman is 28.

That's a bit of a stretch isn't it? I'm all for a fair trial, and I have my own thoughts on this, but it shouldn't be based on lies. what exactly is closer to 28? 25? Does TM look like he was 25 years old? My son isn't much younger than TM (15 in July) and wouldn't be able to pass off as 18!

So yah, this testimony frustrated the heck out of me.

MOO

Mel

--he also says--

911 dispatcher:
OK, what’s your apartment number?
Zimmerman:
It’s a home. It’s 1950 – Aw, crap, I don’t want to give it out loud – I don’t know where this kid is [3:40]
..late teens, a kid----equals "a little younger than" 28? i doubt it george.

TonyGatto
04-20-2012, 06:00 PM
What's been bugging me all day is how GZ (what I perceived to be) lied on the stand during his apology today. He said (unless my ears are wonky) that he thought TM was I thought he was a little bit younger than I am or words to that effect. Yet in the 911 call he said something completely different.

Dispatcher

How old would you say he looks?

Zimmerman

He's got button on his shirt, late teens.


Late teens is 17 or 18. George Zimmerman is 28.

That's a bit of a stretch isn't it? I'm all for a fair trial, and I have my own thoughts on this, but it shouldn't be based on lies. what exactly is closer to 28? 25? Does TM look like he was 25 years old? My son isn't much younger than TM (15 in July) and wouldn't be able to pass off as 18!

So yah, this testimony frustrated the heck out of me.

MOO

Mel

This is a huge point. The prosecutor will use it to impeach GZ. And this was in 30 seconds on the stand. It goes along with GZ saying he stopped following TM, but ended up very far from his car with TM, behind the homes. Can you imagine the inconsistencies that have been found during hours of police grilling? The jury will have to ask -- if he lied about this stuff -- can we believe his version of events at all?

LyndyLoo
04-20-2012, 06:02 PM
What's been bugging me all day is how GZ (what I perceived to be) lied on the stand during his apology today. He said (unless my ears are wonky) that he thought TM was I thought he was a little bit younger than I am or words to that effect. Yet in the 911 call he said something completely different.

Dispatcher

How old would you say he looks?

Zimmerman

He's got button on his shirt, late teens.


Late teens is 17 or 18. George Zimmerman is 28.

That's a bit of a stretch isn't it? I'm all for a fair trial, and I have my own thoughts on this, but it shouldn't be based on lies. what exactly is closer to 28? 25? Does TM look like he was 25 years old? My son isn't much younger than TM (15 in July) and wouldn't be able to pass off as 18!

So yah, this testimony frustrated the heck out of me.

MOO

Mel

George finds it so easy to confabulate and embellish..so Its not easy for him to recall all those other statements to copy or to repeat them verbatum ..It's an affliction of people who constantly have to make excuses for what they do, said, did etc...And this is going to come back to bite him in the end..What he says now the truth..or what he said then or then or then..LOL

Its easy to remember the truth..but more mind bending to try and recall just what story you said when or where..LOL

katydid23
04-20-2012, 06:02 PM
What will GZ's answer be when he is asked how he, TM and his gun ended up where they did -- even though GZ was headed back to his car?

It may have happened in a couple of ways, besides him following TM at that point. Maybe they both accidentally ran into each other once again when one of them cut through the buildings. Or MAYBE TM turned around and chased him and that is how it all started. { I am not saying I believe either of those, but they might create reasonable doubts]

katydid23
04-20-2012, 06:06 PM
What's been bugging me all day is how GZ (what I perceived to be) lied on the stand during his apology today. He said (unless my ears are wonky) that he thought TM was I thought he was a little bit younger than I am or words to that effect. Yet in the 911 call he said something completely different.

Dispatcher

How old would you say he looks?

Zimmerman

He's got button on his shirt, late teens.


Late teens is 17 or 18. George Zimmerman is 28.

That's a bit of a stretch isn't it? I'm all for a fair trial, and I have my own thoughts on this, but it shouldn't be based on lies. what exactly is closer to 28? 25? Does TM look like he was 25 years old? My son isn't much younger than TM (15 in July) and wouldn't be able to pass off as 18!

So yah, this testimony frustrated the heck out of me.

MOO

Mel


He may have said on the 911 call that he thought TM was a kid. But later on when they were fighting, he may have decided he was older than that.

katydid23
04-20-2012, 06:10 PM
brought over from earlier thread, posted by LolaMoon
+++++=============================================
My mom must not believe in unconditional love because she has told me and my sisters since I can remember:

"If you get arrested... DON'T call me! DON'T write me! DON'T expect money! DON'T expect me in that courtroom!" She told my older sister, the one who my mom's two granddaughters: "If you ever harm a hair on their heads... I will disown you! You will be dead to me!" during the Caylee Anthony case. She would never stand by us if we killed someone and I know she wouldn't. One time my sister was being really nasty to my mom and my sister said she was going to call HRS (DCF back then) and my mom handed her the phone and said: "When you're finished... make sure you call 911 because you'll need it."

My mom was not abusive in any way and loves us more than the world -- but she is not one of those parents that would support us no matter what and I love her for that. None of us have ever been in any kind of trouble!
================================================== ==

I respect that tough love position, and share it for the most part. However, people do get arrested unfairly, even while innocent.

My sons best friend was charged with date rape when they were in college. And he was INNOCENT. He was eventually proven to be innocent and all of the charges wwere dropped because she recanted.

But what if his parents had cut him off without bothering to hear him out? Innocent until proven guilty should be in the case of our kids too, imo.

Cher352
04-20-2012, 06:11 PM
Does anyone know if he's made bail yet? Or will that be secretive and he will be whisked away ala Anthony style?

His lawyer said it would be a few days as the judge ordered the details of living out of state would have to be worked out in a meeting between his lawyer, the SA and LE.

Adrienne37
04-20-2012, 06:11 PM
This is a huge point. The prosecutor will use it to impeach GZ. And this was in 30 seconds on the stand. It goes along with GZ saying he stopped following TM, but ended up very far from his car with TM, behind the homes. Can you imagine the inconsistencies that have been found during hours of police grilling? The jury will have to ask -- if he lied about this stuff -- can we believe his version of events at all?

I think based on what we saw today when Bernie de la Rionda questioned Zimmerman for those very few minutes, I'd say Zimmerman is in some deep doo-doo when this case makes it to trial. He's not going to remember anything he said in his interviews and I think the state will capitalize on every single discrepancy that Zimmerman has made. As bad as that will be, imagine what Bernie will do with Frank Taaffe, Zimmerman Sr. and Zimmerman Jr. I think Zimmerman can kiss his freedom goodbye for a very long time.


~jmo~

Adrienne37
04-20-2012, 06:12 PM
Does anyone know if he's made bail yet? Or will that be secretive and he will be whisked away ala Anthony style?

The judge stated he would not be making bond today. There are a lot of stipulations that have to be met and made before he leaves the jail.



~jmo~

Cher352
04-20-2012, 06:14 PM
He may have said on the 911 call that he thought TM was a kid. But later on when they were fighting, he may have decided he was older than that.

Especially since he was getting a whooping. I posted your exact thoughts earlier this afternoon.

Cher352
04-20-2012, 06:17 PM
Wish we had a poll, it would be interesting to known if anyone has changed their views one way or the other or gone on the fence since this mornings hearing.

Doubt it but still curious.

Isabelle
04-20-2012, 06:18 PM
Body language expert on with Vinnie. GZ's apology was not sincere.

Adrienne37
04-20-2012, 06:19 PM
Wish we had a poll, it would be interesting to known if anyone has changed their views one way or the other or gone on the fence since this mornings hearing.

Doubt it but still curious.

Actually for me, it made me 100% more convinced that he's guilty and certainly explains to me why the prosecutors filed second degree murder charges against him. I've no doubt that he has a depraved mind and certainly proved that to me today beyond a reasonable doubt.



~jmo~

Adrienne37
04-20-2012, 06:20 PM
Body language expert on with Vinnie. GZ's apology was not sincere.

Suppressed anger she said as well.


~jmo~

elementary
04-20-2012, 06:20 PM
Body language expert on HLN assesses GZ as controlled and full of suppressed anger.

Donjeta
04-20-2012, 06:21 PM
What's been bugging me all day is how GZ (what I perceived to be) lied on the stand during his apology today. He said (unless my ears are wonky) that he thought TM was I thought he was a little bit younger than I am or words to that effect. Yet in the 911 call he said something completely different.

Dispatcher

How old would you say he looks?

Zimmerman

He's got button on his shirt, late teens.


Late teens is 17 or 18. George Zimmerman is 28.

That's a bit of a stretch isn't it? I'm all for a fair trial, and I have my own thoughts on this, but it shouldn't be based on lies. what exactly is closer to 28? 25? Does TM look like he was 25 years old? My son isn't much younger than TM (15 in July) and wouldn't be able to pass off as 18!

So yah, this testimony frustrated the heck out of me.

MOO

Mel

Yeah, and why did he even bring it up? It sounds like he's implying that he wouldn't have shot TM if he'd have known Trayvon was 17 but imo if GZ really was in fear for his life it wouldn't have mattered. I mean, who on earth gets his head bashed to the concrete and thinks, "I'm going to die soon if this goes on, but wait, how old is this guy? He looks 25, so, OK, I'll just shoot him. If he was 17 I'd have to die."

Peliman
04-20-2012, 06:22 PM
That's why prosecutors are confident and brought a murder charge. It's all fine when people believe GZ, saying he walked back toward his car and was attacked. But when he is cross-examined, it will not stand. I still think a murder conviction is going to be difficult -- but at this point I think a manslaughter conviction is looking like a slam dunk.

Could be tricky if the defense won't agree to lesser included offenses. A jury may have to decide on 2nd degree or acquittal. I'm not sure it works that way in Fla. but it does in some other states. JMO

Maybe a legal type can weigh in.

katydid23
04-20-2012, 06:25 PM
Body language expert on HLN assesses GZ as controlled and full of suppressed anger.

I would be full of suppressed anger if I was on trial for my life , if I thought it should be a self defense case. And who wouldn't be 'controlled' while on the witness stand at their own murder trial? How is he supposed to be?

sleonardelli
04-20-2012, 06:27 PM
Could be tricky if the defense won't agree to lesser included offenses. A jury may have to decide on 2nd degree or acquittal. I'm not sure it works that way in Fla. but it does in some other states. JMO

Maybe a legal type can weigh in.

Not a legal type but I read on another thread that lesser offenses ARE included. If I find something later, I'll post it.

PinkiGreen
04-20-2012, 06:27 PM
Body language expert on with Vinnie. GZ's apology was not sincere.

Well he most likely doesn't think he should be sorry since he's claiming self defense. JMO

katydid23
04-20-2012, 06:27 PM
Yeah, and why did he even bring it up? It sounds like he's implying that he wouldn't have shot TM if he'd have known Trayvon was 17 but imo if GZ really was in fear for his life it wouldn't have mattered. I mean, who on earth gets his head bashed to the concrete and thinks, "I'm going to die soon if this goes on, but wait, how old is this guy? He looks 25, so, OK, I'll just shoot him. If he was 17 I'd have to die."

I think what he was saying was that he thought he was older and armed, thus a bigger threat than he turned out to be. He was saying he didn't know he was just a kid with skittles, essentially.

2goldfish
04-20-2012, 06:29 PM
If I entertained any doubts about a murder charge versus manslaughter Zimmerman's non-apology apology erased them.


bbm I know, right? I cant figure this guy out...I think he damn well should have apologised (long ago) but the way he worded it, that he didnt know how old he was, as if it was aw shucks, had he been older it wouldnt be so bad? a bit strange.

katydid23
04-20-2012, 06:29 PM
Actually for me, it made me 100% more convinced that he's guilty and certainly explains to me why the prosecutors filed second degree murder charges against him. I've no doubt that he has a depraved mind and certainly proved that to me today beyond a reasonable doubt.



~jmo~
What happened today to show that absolutely he has a depraved mind.

sleonardelli
04-20-2012, 06:31 PM
Does anyone else think GZ's injuries may have been caused by scratching himself? Seems to me the two witnesses saw him with his hands behind his head.

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 06:32 PM
I would be full of suppressed anger if I was on trial for my life , if I thought it should be a self defense case. And who wouldn't be 'controlled' while on the witness stand at their own murder trial? How is he supposed to be?

He should feel nothing but pure remorse for killing an innocent kid. He should nothing but remorse because he could not follow a simple instruction that would have had Trayvon getting home safe that night! He should feel nothing but remorse for thinking we are all idiots with what people are saying his story is for that night --- it's insulting.

MOO

BritsKate
04-20-2012, 06:33 PM
I know, right? I cant figure this guy out...I think he damn well should have apologised (long ago) but the way he worded it, that he didnt know how old he was, as if it was aw shucks, had he been older it wouldnt be so bad? a bit strange.
I'm getting the same thing as you and Donjeta...that if only he had known Trayvon wasn't armed or only 17 his actions may have varied. Does it really matter if someone is trying to kill you whether they're 17 or 27?

It rules out any semblance of self defense for me. (To be fair though I've doubted that from the beginning anyway so I'm biased. ;))

2goldfish
04-20-2012, 06:33 PM
I would be full of suppressed anger if I was on trial for my life , if I thought it should be a self defense case. And who wouldn't be 'controlled' while on the witness stand at their own murder trial? How is he supposed to be?


I get the anger I suppose, if he were telling the truth, but also if he were telling the truth, where was the sorrow? he's taken one life and possibly destroyed his own, regardless of whether he did or did not tell the truth...so where was the sorrow?

LyndyLoo
04-20-2012, 06:33 PM
Dont know about you guys..But I am looking foreward to the SYG hearing..Its the defenses burden to prove to the Judge that george acted within the boundaries of that law in order to get Immunity to Prosecutions for a crime..which means george will have to testify as to his fear, why, what happened, when and who did what..Given Pros. has some unknown witnesses and transcipts of previous statements.. It create a huge problem for George. he cannot remember ALL his lies and sure he will be reminded what he said and will need to explain them ..That hearing is going to be a popcorn munching spectacle to watch!

Not to mention whatever he ssays in this hearing could be brought into main trial..

2goldfish
04-20-2012, 06:34 PM
Well he most likely doesn't think he should be sorry since he's claiming self defense. JMO

I have no idea why those things should be mutually exclusive.

ladonna
04-20-2012, 06:35 PM
Body language expert on HLN assesses GZ as controlled and full of suppressed anger.

LOL, she could barely see GZ, O'Mara was blocking her view...She had to say something.

katydid23
04-20-2012, 06:36 PM
My friend almost shot an intruder at their summer cabin a few years ago. Everyone else had left for town and so there was no car visible, and he heard footsteps and talking, and then he heard someone coming in through the back porch door. He had his shot gun ready, and it was dark, so he yelled out for them to stop, put their hands up. The tall figure lunged toward him and he almost shot, but a girl screamed NOOOOOOOOOO.

And then the figure ran the other way. And he watched the two TEENS run down the path. So IF he had shot the kid, he would have said the same thing. I didn't know he was so young and didn't know he wasn't armed.

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 06:36 PM
It is also insulting to know that George told LE that Trayvon circled his truck three times and we know that is a bold faced lie! It's beyond insulting that he, after knowing full well that Trayvon's parents did not want to hear an apology, he did it anyways. Talk about spitting in their face!

When Trayvon's parents are ready to take that step and talk to the killer of their child -- they will, but it should have never been forced on them like that! It was heartless and cruel and showed a total lack of respect!

MOO

katydid23
04-20-2012, 06:38 PM
He should feel nothing but pure remorse for killing an innocent kid. He should nothing but remorse because he could not follow a simple instruction that would have had Trayvon getting home safe that night! He should feel nothing but remorse for thinking we are all idiots with what people are saying his story is for that night --- it's insulting.

MOO

How do we know he doesn't feel any remorse? Just because some body language expert says it is control and suppressed anger, that PROVES he has no remorse?

What if another body language expert says she showed remorse and genuine feelings. Would that sway you in any way?

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 06:38 PM
My friend almost shot an intruder at their summer cabin a few years ago. Everyone else had left for town and so there was no car visible, and he heard footsteps and talking, and then he heard someone coming in through the back porch door. He had his shot gun ready, and it was dark, so he yelled out for them to stop, put their hands up. The tall figure lunged toward him and he almost shot, but a girl screamed NOOOOOOOOOO.

And then the figure ran the other way. And he watched the two TEENS run down the path. So IF he had shot the kid, he would have said the same thing. I didn't know he was so young and didn't know he wasn't armed.

You do realize that there is a HUGE difference between someone coming into your home illegally and what happened in this case?

magnolia
04-20-2012, 06:38 PM
Body language expert on HLN assesses GZ as controlled and full of suppressed anger.

Respectfully,how on earth could anyone evaluate the body language of someone in shackles?

PinkiGreen
04-20-2012, 06:39 PM
I have no idea why those things should be mutually exclusive.

If I killed someone I perceived to be a threat to my life, I wouldn't be sorry. No matter what their age. JMO

I'm not saying this is what happened, just a *maybe* JMO

Donjeta
04-20-2012, 06:39 PM
I think what he was saying was that he thought he was older and armed, thus a bigger threat than he turned out to be. He was saying he didn't know he was just a kid with skittles, essentially.

But why did he think TM was armed? Bashing someone's head to the concrete is rather low tech for someone who is armed.

If TM already at 17 years old and unarmed was so scary and dangerous that GZ was choking on his own blood and was one hit away from diapers for the rest of his life it sounds like the threat wouldn't become considerably greater adding 8 years to TM's age.
If he was truly scared for his life because he was assaulted so severely then "sorry, I didn't know he was just a kid with skittles" sounds incongruent to me. The apology sounds like TM's death was basically caused by a stupid misunderstanding and the defense sounds like it was caused by a life or death necessity.

I don't know if I can explain it so that anybody understands what I'm getting at.

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 06:39 PM
How do we know he doesn't feel any remorse? Just because some body language expert says it is control and suppressed anger, that PROVES he has no remorse?

What if another body language expert says she showed remorse and genuine feelings. Would that sway you in any way?

I'm not even paying attention to the body language people? I could care less what they have to say either way.

katydid23
04-20-2012, 06:39 PM
It is also insulting to know that George told LE that Trayvon circled his truck three times and we know that is a bold faced lie! It's beyond insulting that he, after knowing full well that Trayvon's parents did not want to hear an apology, he did it anyways. Talk about spitting in their face!

When Trayvon's parents are ready to take that step and talk to the killer of their child -- they will, but it should have never been forced on them like that! It was heartless and cruel and showed a total lack of respect!

MOO

So telling the parents of the teen you shot, that you feel sorry for their loss, that is like ' SPITTING IN THEIR FACE?' Wow.

sleonardelli
04-20-2012, 06:39 PM
Another thing, hollow point bullets? Really? They're intended to inflict maximum damage.

Disguiseduser0308
04-20-2012, 06:40 PM
It is also insulting to know that George told LE that Trayvon circled his truck three times and we know that is a bold faced lie! It's beyond insulting that he, after knowing full well that Trayvon's parents did not want to hear an apology, he did it anyways. Talk about spitting in their face!

When Trayvon's parents are ready to take that step and talk to the killer of their child -- they will, but it should have never been forced on them like that! It was heartless and cruel and showed a total lack of respect!

MOO

I appreciate your opinion but I don't see how GZ's apology was spitting in their face. I truly believe the same thing would have been said had he made absolutely no apology or statement to Trayvon's parents. He's in a damned if you do and damned if you don't position if I ever saw one.

Adrienne37
04-20-2012, 06:41 PM
Another thing, hollow point bullets? Really? They're intended to inflict maximum damage.

He's a big bad man with his big bad gun and I'd imagine the hollow-point bullets make him feel all the bigger.


~jmo~

ladonna
04-20-2012, 06:41 PM
It is also insulting to know that George told LE that Trayvon circled his truck three times and we know that is a bold faced lie! It's beyond insulting that he, after knowing full well that Trayvon's parents did not want to hear an apology, he did it anyways. Talk about spitting in their face!

When Trayvon's parents are ready to take that step and talk to the killer of their child -- they will, but it should have never been forced on them like that! It was heartless and cruel and showed a total lack of respect!

MOO

How do you know that Trayvon circling his truck *is a bold faced lie*? Has that been determined?

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 06:41 PM
But why did he think TM was armed? Bashing someone's head to the concrete is rather low tech for someone who is armed.

If TM already at 17 years old and unarmed was so scary and dangerous that GZ was choking on his own blood and was one hit away from diapers for the rest of his life it sounds like the threat wouldn't become considerably greater adding 8 years to TM's age.
If he was truly scared for his life because he was assaulted so severely then "sorry, I didn't know he was just a kid with skittles" sounds incongruent to me. The apology sounds like TM's death was basically caused by a stupid misunderstanding and the defense sounds like it was caused by a life or death necessity.

I don't know if I can explain it so that anybody understands what I'm getting at.

If he was so scared of Trayvon and thought he could be armed, he would have NEVER gotten out of that car! LE was on the way.

MOO

katydid23
04-20-2012, 06:42 PM
You do realize that there is a HUGE difference between someone coming into your home illegally and what happened in this case?

Yes, except for in terms of the SYG laws, there are similarities.

annalia
04-20-2012, 06:42 PM
You do realize that there is a HUGE difference between someone coming into your home illegally and what happened in this case?

No kidding, what the heck, GZ saw exactly what Trayvon looked like, he identified him as a kid, his late teens. For cripes sake, is there anything that this man says or does that doesn't get excused away.

JMHO

2goldfish
04-20-2012, 06:43 PM
You do realize that there is a HUGE difference between someone coming into your home illegally and what happened in this case?


yeah and the whole yelling out a warning thing.

katydid23
04-20-2012, 06:43 PM
If he was so scared of Trayvon and thought he could be armed, he would have NEVER gotten out of that car! LE was on the way.

MOO

I agree, which is why I think he should be found guilty on involuntary manslaughter. But 2nd degree MURDER is too high of a charge, given what we know so far,imo.

LyndyLoo
04-20-2012, 06:43 PM
Another thing, hollow point bullets? Really? They're intended to inflict maximum damage.

Yep..that small Kel Tec 9mm pistol was loaded for bear!! He knew full well if he shot that thing just what damages would be created..Deadly ..and Trayvon died instantly! :please:

Adrienne37
04-20-2012, 06:43 PM
No kidding, what the heck, GZ saw exactly what Trayvon looked like, he identified him as a kid, his late teens. For cripes sake, is there anything that this man says or does that doesn't get excused away.

JMHO

Evidently not.


~jmo~

annalia
04-20-2012, 06:44 PM
How do you know that Trayvon circling his truck *is a bold faced lie*? Has that been determined?

Why wouldn't he have told 911? They were on the phone at the time. Just listening to the 911 call timeline shows he's lying.

JMHO

Donjeta
04-20-2012, 06:44 PM
Respectfully,how on earth could anyone evaluate the body language of someone in shackles?

Not expressing an opinion about the validity of this body language expert's assessment because I didn't see the segment and just watched very short clips of the hearing too...

...but imo most of the things that they assess wouldn't be much affected by shackles. Shackles tend to restrict large scale body movements and BL is more about small things, facial expressions, shoulder position, direction of gaze, microexpressions, shrugs, nods, etc. that shackled people are capable of.

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 06:44 PM
How do you know that Trayvon circling his truck *is a bold faced lie*? Has that been determined?

Have you listened to George's call to LE? Anywhere in that call where George told the dispatcher "The kid keeps circling my truck?" Nope!

LambChop
04-20-2012, 06:44 PM
Does anyone else think GZ's injuries may have been caused by scratching himself? Seems to me the two witnesses saw him with his hands behind his head.

No, the detective said there were two gashes on his head. If GZ had grabbed TM they could have lost their balance and GZ could have hit his head on the edge of the sidewalk or something else in the yard on the way down. He obviously hit something. jmo

2goldfish
04-20-2012, 06:45 PM
If I killed someone I perceived to be a threat to my life, I wouldn't be sorry. No matter what their age. JMO

I'm not saying this is what happened, just a *maybe* JMO

I would wish there had been another way and grieve all my days, even if it was truly in self defense. that was still someone's baby, someone's brother, sister, cousin, husband, wife, it was still a PERSON even if they were so damaged as to try to destroy me or mine.

I believe GZ let his wannabe cop persona go so far he killed an innocent person...and I still have sympathy for him.

daisy7
04-20-2012, 06:46 PM
Another thing, hollow point bullets? Really? They're intended to inflict maximum damage.

They were hollow point bullets?? I must have missed that today.

2goldfish
04-20-2012, 06:46 PM
So telling the parents of the teen you shot, that you feel sorry for their loss, that is like ' SPITTING IN THEIR FACE?' Wow.


they said they didnt want to hear it, because it was self serving. they probably wonder why he waited til now, at a bond hearing. in knowing that, even if he desperately needed to unburden himself, he was rather selfish IMO

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 06:47 PM
They were hollow point bullets?? I must have missed that today.

Yup! Hollow-Point-Bullets!

LambChop
04-20-2012, 06:47 PM
He's a big bad man with his big bad gun and I'd imagine the hollow-point bullets make him feel all the bigger.


~jmo~

Aren't hollow-point illegal???

2goldfish
04-20-2012, 06:48 PM
How do you know that Trayvon circling his truck *is a bold faced lie*? Has that been determined?


I do not believe there was time to do that, beat GZ nearly to diapers, and get shot and die in the time between 911 calls and gf's call.

Donjeta
04-20-2012, 06:48 PM
My friend almost shot an intruder at their summer cabin a few years ago. Everyone else had left for town and so there was no car visible, and he heard footsteps and talking, and then he heard someone coming in through the back porch door. He had his shot gun ready, and it was dark, so he yelled out for them to stop, put their hands up. The tall figure lunged toward him and he almost shot, but a girl screamed NOOOOOOOOOO.

And then the figure ran the other way. And he watched the two TEENS run down the path. So IF he had shot the kid, he would have said the same thing. I didn't know he was so young and didn't know he wasn't armed.

It makes sense that one wouldn't know how old a shadowy figure that one doesn't see in the dark is but according to GZ's own words he had TM pegged as late teens.

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 06:48 PM
they said they didnt want to hear it, because it was self serving. they probably wonder why he waited til now, at a bond hearing. in knowing that, even if he desperately needed to undurden himself, he was rather selfish IMO

He could have written a letter and had O'Mara give it to their attorney and then they could choose to read it when they were ready! What they did was really wrong!

MOO

PinkiGreen
04-20-2012, 06:49 PM
I would wish there had been another way and grieve all my days, even if it was truly in self defense. that was still someone's baby, someone's brother, sister, cousin, husband, wife, it was still a PERSON even if they were so damaged as to try to destroy me or mine.

I believe GZ let his wannabe cop persona go so far he killed an innocent person...and I still have sympathy for him.

Well I would of course wish I hadn't had to, but if mine or my family's lives or well-being were threatened by someone, they wouldn't matter to me. I'd do whatever necessary to protect myself and not feel bad a bit. JMO

Adrienne37
04-20-2012, 06:49 PM
Aren't hollow-point illegal???

Evidently only in New Jersey I believe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow-point_bullet


~jmo~

BritsKate
04-20-2012, 06:49 PM
I agree, which is why I think he should be found guilty on involuntary manslaughter. But 2nd degree MURDER is too high of a charge, given what we know so far,imo.
I guess I'd have to believe what Zimmerman has said so far too then and I just don't. I'll wait for the evidence to be presented at trial but if it is proven that Zimmerman pursued Trayvon and/or was the aggressor than nothing less than a murder conviction would suffice in my opinion.

I believe Zimmerman was angry that so many before Trayvon had been allowed to 'skate' and that night he was determined to put a stop to it. I don't believe he pursued Trayvon with the intent to kill but nonetheless he certainly didn't retreat to his vehicle in my opinion either. MOO and FWIW

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 06:51 PM
So telling the parents of the teen you shot, that you feel sorry for their loss, that is like ' SPITTING IN THEIR FACE?' Wow.

When those parents are not ready to hear that apology and have made that very clear -- and that same person, who on his own website has quotes that pretty much say he was a hero against evil --- yeah --- he spit in their faces!

Especially since we don't even know what George said about Tracy in this text message that was brought up today.

MOO

PaintingAnemone
04-20-2012, 06:52 PM
Does anyone else think GZ's injuries may have been caused by scratching himself? Seems to me the two witnesses saw him with his hands behind his head.

I wouldn't be surprised if Trayvon scratched/gouged him with his nails during whatever struggle they experienced. The one wound I can see on Zimmerman's head looks like a fingernail wound of some kind, IMO. It certainly doesn't look like an "I just had my head bashed repeatedly against the concrete" wound to me.

I'm still trying to figure out how whoever took this picture managed to get a nice, neat, straight "glare" line right across Zimmerman's round head, so even it could have been (or actually was) drawn with a ruler. And in such a convenient location to hide whatever wound is right on top of his head! No smears, no smudges either, despite the fact that he was seen rubbing and touching his head at the scene, as you mentioned.

I dunno. Unless Martin picked up all 185lbs or so of Zimmerman's struggling dead weight and pile-drove him into the concrete, I think there's a serious problem with the location of his wounds and how he said he received them. Not to mention that the mere presence of blood or wounds doesn't mean a darn thing with regard to who began the scuffle, or which one of them was in fear of his life. To the contrary, this picture just makes it MORE clear in my mind that he's not telling the truth - not to mention his bald-faced lie on the stand today.

katydid23
04-20-2012, 06:52 PM
I'm not even paying attention to the body language people? I could care less what they have to say either way.

Then how do you know he doesn't feel any remorse?

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 06:54 PM
Then how do you know he doesn't feel any remorse?

From looking at his website. The quotes. The picture he posted.

katydid23
04-20-2012, 06:54 PM
they said they didnt want to hear it, because it was self serving. they probably wonder why he waited til now, at a bond hearing. in knowing that, even if he desperately needed to undurden himself, he was rather selfish IMO

I think they made different comments at various times, sometimes asking why he has never apologized. So if he hadn't apologized, I bet Crumb would have made a big deal of that as well. Imo.

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 06:55 PM
I wonder how many people carry those kind of bullets in their guns?? Like real responsible gun owners? The fact that he was carrying a loaded gun around the neighborhood is bad enough (IMO) but the fact that he had those kind of bullets makes it that much more disturbing. MOO

LambChop
04-20-2012, 06:56 PM
I guess I'd have to believe what Zimmerman has said so far too then and I just don't. I'll wait for the evidence to be presented at trial but if it is proven that Zimmerman pursued Trayvon and/or was the aggressor than nothing less than a murder conviction would suffice in my opinion.

I believe Zimmerman was angry that so many before Trayvon had been allowed to 'skate' and that night he was determined to put a stop to it. I don't believe he pursued Trayvon with the intent to kill but nonetheless he certainly didn't retreat to his vehicle in my opinion either. MOO and FWIW

How would you convince a jury that you were not out to kill someone when you loaded your gun with hollow-point bullets and then fire into someone's chest? You know they are not going to survive and it's possible at that point you may not want them to and make that decision to aim for the chest. To me the decision to put a hollow-point into a gun is the difference from just wanting to stop someone from hurting you to making it permanent. That once you make the decision to fire the gun it will be to kill someone. jmo

Donjeta
04-20-2012, 06:57 PM
Then how do you know he doesn't feel any remorse?

I got that impression from his website.

If I wwas feeling remorse for shooting someone I wouldn't post quotes implying that I had done a good deed and vanquished evil.

LambChop
04-20-2012, 06:57 PM
I wonder how many people carry those kind of bullets in their guns?? Like real responsible gun owners? The fact that he was carrying a loaded gun around the neighborhood is bad enough (IMO) but the fact that he had those kind of bullets makes it that much more disturbing. MOO

And right across the street from a school zone, too.

Zak
04-20-2012, 06:57 PM
Does anyone else think GZ's injuries may have been caused by scratching himself? Seems to me the two witnesses saw him with his hands behind his head.

No, not at all. After seeing the picture today, of the back of GZ's head, if he put his hands behind the head they never touched because the blood would have smeared.

2goldfish
04-20-2012, 06:58 PM
I think they made different comments at various times, sometimes asking why he has never apologized. So if he hadn't apologized, I bet Crumb would have made a big deal of that as well. Imo.


I bet if he'd apologised on or around 27 february, we wouldnt be discussing this and we might even see more posters with more sympathy towards GZ. I agree NOW he's damned if he does or damned if he doesnt but he wasnt on 26, 27, 28 etc february.

m00c0w
04-20-2012, 06:59 PM
I wonder how many people carry those kind of bullets in their guns?? Like real responsible gun owners? The fact that he was carrying a loaded gun around the neighborhood is bad enough (IMO) but the fact that he had those kind of bullets makes it that much more disturbing. MOO

That would be the most common self-defense load. I'm sure you'd find most gun owners carry hollow points.

I'd even venture to call those that do not more irresponsible than those that do, because of the likelihood of "regular" ball ammo overpenetrating and unintentionally injuring or killing someone else.

m00c0w
04-20-2012, 07:00 PM
How would you convince a jury that you were not out to kill someone when you loaded your gun with hollow-point bullets and then fire into someone's chest? You know they are not going to survive and it's possible at that point you may not want them to and make that decision to aim for the chest. To me the decision to put a hollow-point into a gun is the difference from just wanting to stop someone from hurting you to making it permanent. That once you make the decision to fire the gun it will be to kill someone. jmo

Deadly force doesn't mean or even imply "shoot to wound".

mfcmom
04-20-2012, 07:01 PM
Can someone please correct me or confirm I just heard on Vinnie P's show that someone witnessed the chase? Thanks

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 07:01 PM
I bet if he'd apologised on or around 27 february, we wouldnt be discussing this and we might even see more posters with more sympathy towards GZ. I agree NOW he's damned if he does or damned if he doesnt but he wasnt on 26, 27, 28 etc february.

The website he created right before he was arrested, does not show a man feeling sorry for what he did. He is feeling sorry for himself and showed a complete lack of respect for his victims family by doing what he did today.

MOO

BritsKate
04-20-2012, 07:02 PM
How would you convince a jury that you were not out to kill someone when you loaded your gun with hollow-point bullets and then fire into someone's chest? You know they are not going to survive and it's possible at that point you may not want them to and make that decision to aim for the chest. To me the decision to put a hollow-point into a gun is the difference from just wanting to stop someone from hurting you to making it permanent. That once you make the decision to fire the gun it will be to kill someone. jmo
That's a really good point. :)

I guess I just don't necessarily believe this was premeditated in the sense that he hunted Trayvon down just to murder him. I think Zimmerman wanted to play hero though and a loaded gun was part of that ensemble.

To me this case is clear cut murder either way.

katydid23
04-20-2012, 07:02 PM
I bet if he'd apologised on or around 27 february, we wouldnt be discussing this and we might even see more posters with more sympathy towards GZ. I agree NOW he's damned if he does or damned if he doesnt but he wasnt on 26, 27, 28 etc february.

I don't know how he would have apologized to them around then. They had no contact at any time.

annalia
04-20-2012, 07:02 PM
When those parents are not ready to hear that apology and have made that very clear -- and that same person, who on his own website has quotes that pretty much say he was a hero against evil --- yeah --- he spit in their faces!

Especially since we don't even know what George said about Tracy in this text message that was brought up today.

MOO

How many days has it been since the family rejected the meeting with GZ? Only a couple at most? They knew that the family rejected that meeting for a reason, and they knew that the family wasn't asking for a public apology. They twisted and used an interview of Sybrina's to their advantage.

JMHO

Desdemona
04-20-2012, 07:03 PM
Does anyone else think GZ's injuries may have been caused by scratching himself? Seems to me the two witnesses saw him with his hands behind his head.Behind his head? Do you mean the two female roommates? I can't find where a witness has said he was seen with his hand to the back of his head, but ICBW.


One roommate witness:

But the man, who by now had left the grass and was walking on the sidewalk, did seem worried, “with his hand up to his forehead,” the witness said.

http://fox8.com/2012/03/30/brother-medical-records-will-prove-george-zimmermans-story/


The other roommate witness:

“He started walking back and forth like three times with his hand on the head and kind of, he was walking like kind of confused."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120504/Trayvon-Martin-case-He-suspended-times-caught-burglary-tool.html

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 07:04 PM
That would be the most common self-defense load. I'm sure you'd find most gun owners carry hollow points.

I'd even venture to call those that do not more irresponsible than those that do, because of the likelihood of "regular" ball ammo overpenetrating and unintentionally injuring or killing someone else.

Are those the type of bullets you carry in your gun? I know you are a responsible gun owner and I respect you for that (I remember the Zombie story :floorlaugh:) so I am just curious if those are the bullets you carry?

Aedrys
04-20-2012, 07:05 PM
Just caught up!

Wow. Florida needs a reality show once GZ is out on bond since Florida now will then have TWO people in hiding. So who will be found first? I'd watch that show! I'd pay to watch that show!

Bad apology by GZ. Just terrible. How insincere and just shameful to spring it on the Martins like that. No means no except to GZ, apparently. No remorse. It's not a true apology just because he said it. Reminds me of Casey's apology to Amy H. It was hollow and entirely self serving. It's not a true apology if it's only meant to help yourself and not the person being apologized to.

I saw the pics of the back of his head, and it does look like he got hurt, but not like head bashing so much he'd be close to diapers to me. And what a depraved person to start taking pics like that right there. I'm actually glad we haven't seen any pictures surface of Trayvon's body. Some people are just sick and have to take those kind of pictures. And I LOVE how ABC is involved AGAIN. They should rename themselves CSC, Criminal Support Channel. I wonder if they shelled out as much as they did for Caylee's pictures?

I'm not liking MOM, but I can't say he's Baez yet. If he starts filing incomprehensible motions or does things like make the judge stop the trial for him to get a file, I might have to say he's equal to Baez. But not yet. He's done things in very poor taste, I agree. But he is not on Baez's level of incompetence just yet. I hope he never gets there because I can't take another trial or wait for a trial like Casey's. I just CAN'T.

So I wonder where George is going to hide. I hope he has to stay in State. I don't like the thought of him being allowed to live outside of the state. That worries me for me some reason. I am giggling that he has a curfew, though. I don't know why, but that makes me laugh. I guess it's because he won't be able to go out and patrol anymore, will he? Thank GOD for no firearms either.

And two flashlights on him that night? Well, I know what they usually say about not being able to find a certain part of the human anatomy with a flashlight and both hands...maybe he had two and still couldn't find it that night? He certainly wasn't using common sense and decency, or Trayvon would be still be alive, IMO.

Also, I could have sworn earlier I saw Padilla's name come up briefly when I checked in quickly earlier, but I didn't see it again as I was catching up just now. Please GOD tell me he's not getting involved!!!! If he does, this is becoming the CA case all over again more and more. Both certainly have the exact same type of families! Bring on the depositions! I guarantee they will mirror the A's for Morgan. Oh, this case. I am getting a headache and wanting wine already...

shadowraiths
04-20-2012, 07:06 PM
I still need to catch up but I do have a question. How can anyone lie through their teeth like he just did when he "apologized" to the parents?!? ( , emphasis added, mine )


Zimmerman said, “I wanted to say I am sorry for the loss of your son. I did not know how old he was. I thought he was a little bit younger than I am. And I did not know if he was armed or not.”

And yet, from the 911 tape ( [url=http://crimsonshadows.net/component/option,com_docman/task,cat_view/gid,119/Itemid,137/]link (]link[/url), emphasis added, mine )


Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?

Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens.

Though, imho, his lie is rather telling from what appears to be his own justification pov. (i.e., I thought he was older, so that's why I shot him)

TonyGatto
04-20-2012, 07:06 PM
I really don't care if GZ is sorry or not, if his apology was contrived or genuine. I just don't care.

Desdemona
04-20-2012, 07:06 PM
Body language expert on HLN assesses GZ as controlled and full of suppressed anger.I don't watch those shows. Just curious whether the same body language expert weighed in with an opinion about the anger/aggression level displayed by the Prosecutor. JMO

curiousjo
04-20-2012, 07:06 PM
I am sure Trayvon fought for his life!

If someone were following me in a car, then got out followed me on foot - I would be very concerned and fearful - especially if I was a teen. Then, if they ran after me and confronted me with force and possibly brought out their gun - then I would figure this is life or death High danger! I would punch, kick, scratch, bite and yell to fight for my life!!!!!!!

Who cares if Trayvon may have been on top at one point and beat his head or punched his face - Zimmerman was the one who was following a teen who was simply walking down the street to his fathers fiancés home. Innocent. Zimmerman made the decision to profile him - thought he looked suspect, Why??? Then he chose to follow the teen in his car, then get out of the vehicle despite the police telling him that they didn't need him to do that. You can hear the motor vehicle door shut and Zimmerman panting as he ran towards the victim. He HUNTED this teen down. If Zimmerman had stayed in the vehicle, and done what the police told him, then a teenager would be alive today.

Zimmerman needs to go to jail. He appears to be a hot head, police/detective "wanna be" who is obviously prejudice. He should never have a gun or get on the police force. That guy is scary. The FL jury had best do the right thing. Shame on the GOP for bringing out the Pro Gun guys and making this political.

TonyGatto
04-20-2012, 07:07 PM
I still need to catch up but I do have a question. How can anyone lie through their teeth like he just did when he "apologized" to the parents?!? ( , emphasis added, mine )


Zimmerman said, “I wanted to say I am sorry for the loss of your son. I did not know how old he was. I thought he was a little bit younger than I am. And I did not know if he was armed or not.”

And yet, from the 911 tape ( [url=http://crimsonshadows.net/component/option,com_docman/task,cat_view/gid,119/Itemid,137/]link (]link[/url), emphasis added, mine )


Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?

Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens.

Though, imho, his lie is rather telling from what appears to be his own justification pov. (i.e., I thought he was older, so that's why I shot him)

As you catch up -- you will see a lot of people asking the same question about this inconsistency. I imagine jurors will do the same.

m00c0w
04-20-2012, 07:08 PM
Are those the type of bullets you carry in your gun? I know you are a responsible gun owner and I respect you for that (I remember the Zombie story :floorlaugh:) so I am just curious if those are the bullets you carry?

I may be shooting myself in the foot for saying this (pun not really intended), but I carry a slightly modified version of hollow points.

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/hornady-9mm-115-354x200.jpg

They're hollow points with a polymer filler that guarantee expansion upon penetration. If you're using deadly force, you've already made the decision you're going to potentially kill someone or they're going to kill you. Hollow points stop threats much more effectively than "regular" FMJs because they don't just pass through the body. I could go into details, but I feel that's wholly irrelevant. Everyone I know that carries has hollow points. If you go into a store and ask for a good round for SD purposes, they'd point you to hollow points. That's just the truth of the matter.

octobermoon
04-20-2012, 07:08 PM
LOL FT is on JVM :crazy:

He is happy to be back on. yada yada yada,

Desdemona
04-20-2012, 07:11 PM
He should feel nothing but pure remorse for killing an innocent kid. He should nothing but remorse because he could not follow a simple instruction that would have had Trayvon getting home safe that night! He should feel nothing but remorse for thinking we are all idiots with what people are saying his story is for that night --- it's insulting.

MOOI don't feel insulted. And I don't believe I am an idiot, but ICBW.

As for the way GZ might be feeling, is it your belief that he doesn't feel remorse? Or that he doesn't have a right to be offended by some of the things people are saying about him (such as here at WS), regardless of his level of remorse for what happened?

JMO

(And no, I don't think those who have spoken in the media on GZ's behalf have gotten all the details right, either.)

angeleleven
04-20-2012, 07:12 PM
LOL FT is on JVM :crazy:

He is happy to be back on. yada yada yada,

Of course he is....he loves the attention. JMO

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 07:12 PM
I may be shooting myself in the foot for saying this (pun not really intended), but I carry a slightly modified version of hollow points.

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/hornady-9mm-115-354x200.jpg

They're hollow points with a polymer filler that guarantee expansion upon penetration. If you're using deadly force, you've already made the decision you're going to potentially kill someone or they're going to kill you. Hollow points stop threats much more effectively than "regular" FMJs because they don't just pass through the body. I could go into details, but I feel that's wholly irrelevant. Everyone I know that carries has hollow points. If you go into a store and ask for a good round for SD purposes, they'd point you to hollow points. That's just the truth of the matter.

Wow!! You live in Georgia, right? :floorlaugh:

Thanks for the honesty. :rocker: That's a scary looking bullet and thank you for not going into details. I have already imagined in my head something like that ripping through someone's body. Yikes!

Phoenixfla
04-20-2012, 07:13 PM
What's been bugging me all day is how GZ (what I perceived to be) lied on the stand during his apology today. He said (unless my ears are wonky) that he thought TM was I thought he was a little bit younger than I am or words to that effect. Yet in the 911 call he said something completely different.

Dispatcher

How old would you say he looks?

Zimmerman

He's got button on his shirt, late teens.


Late teens is 17 or 18. George Zimmerman is 28.

That's a bit of a stretch isn't it? I'm all for a fair trial, and I have my own thoughts on this, but it shouldn't be based on lies. what exactly is closer to 28? 25? Does TM look like he was 25 years old? My son isn't much younger than TM (15 in July) and wouldn't be able to pass off as 18!

So yah, this testimony frustrated the heck out of me.

MOO

Mel
Perhaps when he initially saw TM he thought he looked 17 or 18 but when he is being assaulted (allegedly) he thought a 17 or 18 year old wouldnt be kicking my butt this bad.

Not that this is the case but I would consider this as a plausible explanation.

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 07:14 PM
I don't feel insulted. And I don't believe I am an idiot, but ICBW.

As for the way GZ might be feeling, is it your belief that he doesn't feel remorse? Or that he doesn't have a right to be offended by some of the things people are saying about him (such as here at WS), regardless of his level of remorse for what happened?

JMO

(And no, I don't think those who have spoken in the media on GZ's behalf have gotten all the details right, either.)

I believe he doesn't feel remorse for anyone but himself and not because he has wrongfully been accused of something, but because it didn't just "blow over" like he thought it would.

MOO

curiousjo
04-20-2012, 07:15 PM
GZ is a coward. He spoke today in hopes of tainting a jury. All he is concerned about is trying not to go to jail. He hunted down a teen and killed him. In the end, God knows the truth. I think he is a walking dead man.

octobermoon
04-20-2012, 07:16 PM
Of course he is....he loves the attention. JMO

If he ends up on Dancing with the stars Lolamoon will be :maddening:

2goldfish
04-20-2012, 07:16 PM
I don't know how he would have apologized to them around then. They had no contact at any time.


my first thought was why not pass a letter through the police department then I remembered oh yeah, they were completely incompetent. after it hit the media, I bet he could have got an apology out in any medium he wished.

m00c0w
04-20-2012, 07:18 PM
Wow!! You live in Georgia, right? :floorlaugh:

Thanks for the honesty. :rocker: That's a scary looking bullet and thank you for not going into details. I have already imagined in my head something like that ripping through someone's body. Yikes!
Yes, I do. Right outside the metro Atlanta area, but inside the perimeter.

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 07:19 PM
If he ends up on Dancing with the stars Lolamoon will be :maddening:

:thud: :thud: :thud:

Donjeta
04-20-2012, 07:21 PM
Perhaps when he initially saw TM he thought he looked 17 or 18 but when he is being assaulted (allegedly) he thought a 17 or 18 year old wouldnt be kicking my butt this bad.

Not that this is the case but I would consider this as a plausible explanation.

I know people have pretty random thoughts in their heads sometimes but I find it a little implausible that a person who is assaulted and fearful for his life would think about the assailant's age at that moment. Why would it make a difference if you're getting your skull broken by a 17 year old or a 25 year old?

Desdemona
04-20-2012, 07:22 PM
It is also insulting to know that George told LE that Trayvon circled his truck three times and we know that is a bold faced lie!

<snip>

MOO<RSBM/BBM>

Do we know this for a fact? That GZ lied to LE, telling them that TM circled his truck three times? All I had heard before was that GZ may have said that TM circled back toward where the truck was. Was an alleged statement about TM circling the truck three times something disclosed in the hearing today? I wasn't able to catch all of it. TIA.

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 07:22 PM
Yes, I do. Right outside the metro Atlanta area, but inside the perimeter.

I was being silly. :seeya: That's cool though. I might have to write that type of bullet into one of my screenplays.

Inabsentia
04-20-2012, 07:22 PM
Everyone I know who carries, and it is a significant number of people, carry some kind of hollowpoint. They also neither preach nor practice shooting to wound.

When using a gun for self-defense maximum "stopping power" with as little collateral damage risk as possible is the ideal. For home defense I rely on two 100lb plus dogs, but if a bear came through my window screen (it happens here) I would bust out a shotgun for the same reasons. Maximum stopping power, not likely to go through my wall and hit a neighbor.

Melanie
04-20-2012, 07:22 PM
Perhaps when he initially saw TM he thought he looked 17 or 18 but when he is being assaulted (allegedly) he thought a 17 or 18 year old wouldnt be kicking my butt this bad.

Not that this is the case but I would consider this as a plausible explanation.

Possibly. I think he should have left out that whole "I thought he was closer to my age" statement out altogether. Like it makes a difference if you're killing someone over the age of 18, or 15, or 28. Who has time to make age determinations in that kind of situation (raining, wearing a hoodie from what I understand) - he's either a "kid" or in his mid 20's (closer to 28). 1 too many inconsistencies for my comfort level.

Just moo of course.

Mel

Phoenixfla
04-20-2012, 07:23 PM
My friend almost shot an intruder at their summer cabin a few years ago. Everyone else had left for town and so there was no car visible, and he heard footsteps and talking, and then he heard someone coming in through the back porch door. He had his shot gun ready, and it was dark, so he yelled out for them to stop, put their hands up. The tall figure lunged toward him and he almost shot, but a girl screamed NOOOOOOOOOO.

And then the figure ran the other way. And he watched the two TEENS run down the path. So IF he had shot the kid, he would have said the same thing. I didn't know he was so young and didn't know he wasn't armed.

That was a powerful story.

What'sThatClue
04-20-2012, 07:24 PM
my first thought was why not pass a letter through the police department then I remembered oh yeah, they were completely incompetent. after it hit the media, I bet he could have got an apology out in any medium he wished.

No kidding! Heck, he could have even posted it on his website had he not been too busy posting "Justice for Zimmerman" and asking for donations.

katydid23
04-20-2012, 07:25 PM
my first thought was why not pass a letter through the police department then I remembered oh yeah, they were completely incompetent. after it hit the media, I bet he could have got an apology out in any medium he wished.

But would it have been accepted any better than it has been now? And would an attorney want him writing a letter saying he was sorry, before any charges had happened? Probably not, imo.

LambChop
04-20-2012, 07:25 PM
Deadly force doesn't mean or even imply "shoot to wound".

I get the picture. It would be nice to have that option when all you want to do is to stop someone. Once you fire it pretty much a death sentence. jmo

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 07:25 PM
<RSBM/BBM>

Do we know this for a fact? That GZ lied to LE, telling them that TM circled his truck three times? All I had heard before was that GZ may have said that TM circled back toward where the truck was. Was an alleged statement about TM circling the truck three times something disclosed in the hearing today? I wasn't able to catch all of it. TIA.

That's what has been said in here by the people who watched the hearing? I didn't watch the hearing? I woke up late. I read it here while catching up.

curiousjo
04-20-2012, 07:26 PM
IF GZ was truly sorry, then he would have had his brother state this when he was doing the media tour. Instead, the brother just relayed GZ lies.

This thing went down quick. I believe there was <2 minutes between time Trayvon was speaking to his girlfriend on the cell phone and the police arrive to scene of crime. Maybe even only a minute when the actual physical confrontation took place. So, GZs excuse that he thought he was going to die, is a joke. I sure hope there are eye witnesses that tell the truth. I know several people called in who heard the yelling and gun shot. But, an actual eye witness. He was on a side walk between 2 apartment buildings. If I heard yelling or a fight on my sidewalk, I would be looking out the window. Not just listening behind the shades. Trayvon and GZ have very different body structures, so even though dark - one should be able to know who was the victim. Entrance of bullet should be helpful too. And of course, the interpretation of the yelling for help. The fact that they say the yelling stopped once the gun shot went off strongly suggests this was Trayvon yelling for help... .sad that no one helped the kid. Hoping for Justice!

katydid23
04-20-2012, 07:27 PM
No kidding! Heck, he could have even posted it on his website had he not been too busy posting "Justice for Zimmerman" and asking for donations.

If he had posted an apology on that website he would have been ripped apart by all of the same who are ripping him apart now. imo

Concerned Papa
04-20-2012, 07:28 PM
How do you know that Trayvon circling his truck *is a bold faced lie*? Has that been determined?

How have you been, my friend? Free of charge :floorlaugh: let me give you my thoughts on this circling issue. I don't know what type of vehicle GZ was driving other than it being referred to as both a "truck" in some accounts, and an SUV in others. To pick a vehicle that could fit either bill, lets go with a Ford Expedition.

An Expedition is 206.5 inches or 17 feet 2 1/2 inches in length. To go around this vehicle means walking approximately a 20 foot diameter circle.

The circumference, or distance around a circle is pi (3.14) X the diameter.

3.14 X 20' = 62'-9 1/2"

To walk three circles around this vehicle would mean walking 3 X 62'-9 1/2" or about 188'-4".

Considering the fact it was raining, and the fact that the street portion of his path of movement was only about 260 feet to start with, I can't see him adding another 188 feet for whatever purpose is being insinuated with this story.

Last, but not least, keep in mind his timeline of movement from the clubhouse to the point he apparently started running doesn't allow for this kind of percentage increase in distance traveled. Remember GZ said he was at the clubhouse when the call began, and 443' later at [2:08] he was running down the sidewalk between the townhomes.

I think the old "3 laps around the car" deal is like a lot of other embellishment you and I have seen in other cases.

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 07:28 PM
IF GZ was truly sorry, then he would have had his brother state this when he was doing the media tour. Instead, the brother just relayed GZ lies.

This thing went down quick. I believe there was <2 minutes between time Trayvon was speaking to his girlfriend on the cell phone and the police arrive to scene of crime. Maybe even only a minute when the actual physical confrontation took place. So, GZs excuse that he thought he was going to die, is a joke. I sure hope their are eye witnesses that tell the truth. I know several people called in who heard the yelling and gun shot. But, an actual eye witness. He was on a side walk between 2 apartment buildings. If I heard yelling or a fight on my sidewalk, I would be looking out the window. Not just listening behind the shades. Trayvon and GZ have very different body structures, so even though dark - one should be able to know who was the victim. Entrance of gun shot would should be helpful too. And of course, the interpretation of the yelling for help. The fact that they say the yelling stopped once the gun shot went off strongly suggests this was Trayvon yelling for help... .sad that no one helped the kid.

Unfortunately, there are not going to be any eye witnesses to how the actual confrontation started and I don't believe anyone seen George actually shoot Trayvon --- he did admit it though!

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 07:31 PM
If he had posted an apology on that website he would have been ripped apart by all of the same who are ripping him apart now. imo

Really? I was all for George apologizing to Trayvon's parents until I seen his website? I even went so far as to say... Maybe he does feel sorry for what he did? And then I looked at the website! :banghead:

m00c0w
04-20-2012, 07:31 PM
I get the picture. It would be nice to have that option when all you want to do is to stop someone. Once you fire it pretty much a death sentence. jmo
It's not always. Plenty of people survive gunshot wounds. It's all a matter of where you're hit. A new method of incapacitation has been discussed that emphasizes aiming for the pelvic bone in hopes of fracturing it and rendering the assailant unable to really move.

I'd be hesitant to do that myself, though. It might be seen as only wishing to maim.

gxm
04-20-2012, 07:32 PM
I know people have pretty random thoughts in their heads sometimes but I find it a little implausible that a person who is assaulted and fearful for his life would think about the assailant's age at that moment. Why would it make a difference if you're getting your skull broken by a 17 year old or a 25 year old?

I don't find it implausible that GZ could have thought that he underestimated TM. I don't know about anyone else but when I was badly beaten, I kinda went into an adrenalin state, similar to when I was in a car accident and everything slowed down while my thoughts seemed to speed up. You wouldn't believe how many thoughts swam through my head.

That was just my experience, not everyone experiences danger the same way.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Donjeta
04-20-2012, 07:33 PM
If he had posted an apology on that website he would have been ripped apart by all of the same who are ripping him apart now. imo

You may be right. If the website was the same arrogant one otherwise except an apology was added it probably would not have looked very sincere to me.

Desdemona
04-20-2012, 07:33 PM
I don't know how he would have apologized to them around then. They had no contact at any time.Did I hear incorrectly, or did GZ state under oath today, in response to the Prosecutor's question, that he had been instructed not to contact them? JMO

What'sThatClue
04-20-2012, 07:36 PM
Did I hear incorrectly, or did GZ state under oath today, in response to the Prosecutor's question, that he had been instructed not to contact them? JMO

Yes, he stated that under oath, I believe. That's what I heard GZ state, tho I haven't seen the transcript.

Donjeta
04-20-2012, 07:37 PM
Does GZ say he was in his vehicle when TM was circling it?

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 07:37 PM
I'm learning a lot about guns from this case! It's a little easier to take than human decomposition, adipocere, blow flies, coffin flies, etc... except I am really sad to know what that bullet did to Trayvon internally. :cry:

suzihawk
04-20-2012, 07:37 PM
Please forgive me as I had to work and am miles behind. I know it's all been hashed and re-hashed but I've just watched the interrogation of the investigator and am confused as to why this case was being tried as if the trial had already begun during a BOND hearing.

As to Zimmerman's self serving non-apology. I just have no freakin' words. The gall of this... man (I use the term loosely). Simply appalling! And the lies already. He didn't realize he was a kid?? WTF? He referred to him a kid several times in the 911 tape. And his sudden memory losses. Musta been his head injury. :rolleyes: He will NOT hold up well in court. The SA will eviserate him. I can't wait!!

Sickening!

wishuwerehere
04-20-2012, 07:39 PM
I can imagine that the initial confrontation between Zimmerman and Trayvon escalated to Zimmerman trying to detain Trayvon and Trayvon fighting back. Zimmerman was able to knock Trayvon down onto the ground and sit on top of him. This is when, I believe, Trayvon tried to swing/hit at Zimmerman’s face. And every time Trayvon swung/hit, Zimmerman turned his face to the side which resulted in Trayvon clawing at the back of Zimmerman’s head. This is why Zimmerman had injuries to the back of his head.

Jmo

Justice for Trayvon.

Adrienne37
04-20-2012, 07:39 PM
Please forgive me as I had to work and am miles behind. I know it's all been hashed and re-hashed but I've just watched the interrogation of the investigator and am confused as to why this case was being tried as if the trial had already begun during a BOND hearing.

As to Zimmerman's self serving non-apology. I just have no freakin' words. The gall of this... man (I use the term loosely). Simply appalling! And the lies already. He didn't realize he was a kid?? WTF? He referred to him a kid several times in the 911 tape. And his sudden memory losses. Musta been his head injury. :rolleyes: He will NOT hold up well in court. The SA will eviserate him. I can't wait!!

Sickening!

I agree Suzihawk. I posted pretty much the exact same thing a few pages back. I think Zimmerman is in some deep doo-doo.


~jmo~

What'sThatClue
04-20-2012, 07:40 PM
If he had posted an apology on that website he would have been ripped apart by all of the same who are ripping him apart now. imo

Yes, I agree. Guess my point was anyplace would have been better than today's apology in court. I was so surprised--I had expected him to ask to be released, not that apology.
Moo, of course.

LiveLaughLuv
04-20-2012, 07:40 PM
Possibly. I think he should have left out that whole "I thought he was closer to my age" statement out altogether. Like it makes a difference if you're killing someone over the age of 18, or 15, or 28. Who has time to make age determinations in that kind of situation (raining, wearing a hoodie from what I understand) - he's either a "kid" or in his mid 20's (closer to 28). 1 too many inconsistencies for my comfort level.

Just moo of course.

Mel

He forgets, it's all recorded..I believe he lied as did his family..but somehow glad it's on the record. It might come back and bite him...

On the call when asked how old this person was, he said late teens..now he said he thought he was closer to his own age..BS

BDelaRoinda said he changed his story 5 times..each time he was confronted with his inconsistencies, he then said, I don't remember...

OMara handed the State his medical records, I'm curious if it was an old injury..but even still, as the prosecutor said, it was TM who could have used self defense..but he wouldn't get into that now..

He also told OMara, you don't know what evidece was uncovered, so, thinking he's got some goods on GZ..I also believe the state was trying to get a reaction out of GZ in his cross...this will be interesting when it plays out in court..GM acted all meek and mild...arggg he angers me..

His self serving apology was an insult. If I were TM's parents, when he began to talk, I'd have walked right out..he's sorry for their loss, he didn't know his age, thought he was closer to his age and didn't know he didn't have a weapon! All the more reason to NOT SHOOT....you didn't see a weapon, if he hit you, he was well within his rights....why didn't you use your own fists?? The gun gives him his courage...he bothers the hell out of me...

Sorry for my rant...but he's out and out misrepresenting, I believe out and out lied to the court...as did his family..They don't know how much money was donated to that website? Don't know who's monitoring it? Hogwash..

And they both are out of work, how the hell does GZ pay his bills??

His wife came off arrogant..well, he'll be home soon, sweetheart..

His father claimed GZ isn't violent..it's only when someone else provokes him, then caught himself and said, he turns the other cheek..what a crew..it's always someone else's fault..same with the ex fiance with the DV issue..she attacked him...:maddening:

Karmady
04-20-2012, 07:42 PM
Please forgive me as I had to work and am miles behind. I know it's all been hashed and re-hashed but I've just watched the interrogation of the investigator and am confused as to why this case was being tried as if the trial had already begun during a BOND hearing.

As to Zimmerman's self serving non-apology. I just have no freakin' words. The gall of this... man (I use the term loosely). Simply appalling! And the lies already. He didn't realize he was a kid?? WTF? He referred to him a kid several times in the 911 tape. And his sudden memory losses. Musta been his head injury. :rolleyes: He will NOT hold up well in court. The SA will eviserate him. I can't wait!!

Sickening!

I have read some of this thread about the hearing but I haven't seen it and have been busy all day, too, so I don't know whether the nature of the hearing has been discussed at length. So I'll offer my apologies for re-hashing if it has.

My impression is that the testimony was allowed as part of the bond hearing because of the immunity aspect of the SYG law. I think the defense was pointing out what it believed to be relevant evidence as to the likelihood of the prosecution's ulimate success on the merits in light of the fact that the State will be liable for damages if the case is dismissed at the prelminary hearing stage, and that those damages will, presumably, be greatly enhanced if GZ were to spend a significant amount of time in jail beforehand. jmo

camcneishg
04-20-2012, 07:46 PM
I have a question and I am not sure if it has already been addressed or not...but today I learned that this happened 70 ft from his destination.....why didn't the father know about this til the next day? I would think that if something like this went down 70 ft from my home, I would know something about it...sorry if it has been discussed already.

suzihawk
04-20-2012, 07:47 PM
So telling the parents of the teen you shot, that you feel sorry for their loss, that is like ' SPITTING IN THEIR FACE?' Wow.

Yes, yes it is! He disrespected their wishes. It's as simple as that.

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 07:48 PM
So George forgot he had a gun, according to that article?? He was paralyzed with fear, but noticed all these neighbors peering out of their windows as Trayvon was beating him to a bloody pulp? It wasn't until Trayvon noticed George's gun that he remembered he had a gun? I thought Trayvon seen the gun while they were standing up and George was reaching for his phone?

Ugh!!

Just release George's statement and recorded interview already! Let us hear what he actually said.

MOO

Concerned Papa
04-20-2012, 07:49 PM
I have a question and I am not sure if it has already been addressed or not...but today I learned that this happened 70 ft from his destination.....why didn't the father know about this til the next day? I would think that if something like this went down 70 ft from my home, I would know something about it...sorry if it has been discussed already.

I think they said 70 yards, not feet.

kimpage
04-20-2012, 07:49 PM
Natalie Jackson just told JVM that Sybrina had to comfort Tracy during the hearing because he was so upset...Uggghhhh makes me so sad..And they do not accept GZ's apology they thought it was self serving and i agree 100%:moo::moo::moo::moo:

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 07:49 PM
I have a question and I am not sure if it has already been addressed or not...but today I learned that this happened 70 ft from his destination.....why didn't the father know about this til the next day? I would think that if something like this went down 70 ft from my home, I would know something about it...sorry if it has been discussed already.

He and his fiance were out to dinner and didn't get home until 11:00 -11:30 and the scene had been cleared already.

Adrienne37
04-20-2012, 07:50 PM
Yes, yes it is! He disrespected their wishes. It's as simple as that.

Yes he did but you know, it's just another excuse to defend him. What can you expect from a man who assaults a police officer, picks up a girl and throws her, and beats up on his ex-fiance? Zimmerman will never accept responsibility for his actions because his family has coddled him his entire life and will continue to do so. You see when he is cornered what happens. First off, blame it on the other person; lie and change your story; and if all else fails, murder them.



~jmo~

Karmady
04-20-2012, 07:52 PM
He and his fiance were out to dinner and didn't get home until 11:00 -11:30 and the scene had been cleared already.

I think it's odd that no one at the scene seemed to know who Trayvon was at all. I don't know when he got there, though. Maybe just that day? Otherwise surely at least one of the neighbors might have had an inkling and suggested an id to the officers at the scene.

iluvmua
04-20-2012, 07:52 PM
So if he didn't apologize, I'm sure they would call him a jerk.

and since he did apologize, they say he's not sincere enough.

What more DO they want from him?????

He answered the three questions that SF wanted answered.

grandmaj
04-20-2012, 07:55 PM
Do we want to continue the snark? Because I can resolve this quickly.

Stay on topic, stop snarking and do not continue to personalize. You don't have to agree but we are not going to have attacks on opinions.

Disagree and move on.

TonyGatto
04-20-2012, 07:58 PM
So if he didn't apologize, I'm sure they would call him a jerk.

and since he did apologize, they say he's not sincere enough.

What more DO they want from him?????

He answered the three questions that SF wanted answered.

Telling the truth would be a good start.

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 08:01 PM
I think it's odd that no one at the scene seemed to know who Trayvon was at all. I don't know when he got there, though. Maybe just that day? Otherwise surely at least one of the neighbors might have had an inkling and suggested an id to the officers at the scene.

I don't know how many times Trayvon was there? How long he had been there since he got there? I don't know any of my neighbors and I don't really pay attention to them? I couldn't tell you who lived here and who didn't?

LiveLaughLuv
04-20-2012, 08:02 PM
disregard....

octobermoon
04-20-2012, 08:10 PM
;) :D

15 minutes of the Jeopardy think music - YouTube

:truce:

katydid23
04-20-2012, 08:18 PM
NG and her unleashed lawyers are tearing the prosecution apart. Saying they dropped the ball and looked inept, to the point of damaging their case by appearing not to have the necessary evidence to uphold their probable cause document.

MaryAnn
04-20-2012, 08:20 PM
He and his fiance were out to dinner and didn't get home until 11:00 -11:30 and the scene had been cleared already.

I've never seen a crime scene investigation done so quickly. This one could go into the McGinnis Book of World Records for the quickest crime scene investigation in history.

We just had a young man in Ca. that was trying to outrun the police, he was shot and killed and didn't have a weapon. Although he was pointing his fingers like he did have a gun. Can't blame the police on this one. They closed off the streets for almost 24 hours.

I'm still shocked that Trayvon's crime scene was done so quickly and carelessly. JMO.

shadowraiths
04-20-2012, 08:20 PM
George Zimmerman bond hearing: 5 new things we learned ( link (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2012/0420/George-Zimmerman-bond-hearing-5-new-things-we-learned/Zimmerman-brooded-over-comments-by-Trayvon-s-mother) )



1. Zimmerman brooded over comments by Trayvon's mother

[...]

2. The extent of Zimmerman's injuries

[...]

3. ‘Inconsistencies’ in Zimmerman’s story raised police suspicions

[...]

4. Trial strategies take shape

[...]

5. Amid threats, judge allows unusual bond stipulations


With regard to item 2, here is an article, including a photo taken of GZ's head before he was cleaned up. ( link (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/photo-shows-george-zimmerman-head-bloodied-trayvon-martin-death-article-1.1064765) )

Zak
04-20-2012, 08:20 PM
Yes he did but you know, it's just another excuse to defend him. What can you expect from a man who assaults a police officer, picks up a girl and throws her, and beats up on his ex-fiance? Zimmerman will never accept responsibility for his actions because his family has coddled him his entire life and will continue to do so. You see when he is cornered what happens. First off, blame it on the other person; lie and change your story; and if all else fails, murder them.



~jmo~

BBM

Did I miss this part today? GZ threw a girl and beat an ex-fiance, 2 different people?

suzihawk
04-20-2012, 08:26 PM
Natalie Jackson just told JVM that Sybrina had to comfort Tracy during the hearing because he was so upset...Uggghhhh makes me so sad..And they do not accept GZ's apology they thought it was self serving and i agree 100%:moo::moo::moo::moo:

ITA. Just disgusting. I wish they had stood up and turned their backs to him and remained standing there until he was through with his self serving comments. I read people here saying they just should have left the courtroom if they didn't like it. NO! Why should they? :furious:

Adrienne37
04-20-2012, 08:30 PM
BBM

Did I miss this part today? GZ threw a girl and beat an ex-fiance, 2 different people?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/george-zimmerman-lost-job-party-security-guard-aggressive-ex-co-worker-article-1.1053223

and the ex-fiance was discussed at the bond hearing today.


~jmo~

Adrienne37
04-20-2012, 08:32 PM
ITA. Just disgusting. I wish they had stood up and turned their backs to him and remained standing there until he was through with his self serving comments. I read people here saying they just should have left the courtroom if they didn't like it. NO! Why should they? :furious:

They showed far more restraint and class than I would have been able too. That's alright though, Zimmerman will soon learn all about karma.



~jmo~

suzihawk
04-20-2012, 08:32 PM
I've never seen a crime scene investigation done so quickly. This one could go into the McGinnis Book of World Records for the quickest crime scene investigation in history.

We just had a young man in Ca. that was trying to outrun the police, he was shot and killed and didn't have a weapon. Although he was pointing his fingers like he did have a gun. Can't blame the police on this one. They closed off the streets for almost 24 hours.

I'm still shocked that Trayvon's crime scene was done so quickly and carelessly. JMO.

The SPD had already determined Zimmerman acted within his rights. No need to investigate further. Besides, as some have mentioned, it was raining so they had to just stop and abandon the investigation. I guess the SPD doesn't work in the rain. :rolleyes:

IMO

uvamerica
04-20-2012, 08:33 PM
Francis Taafe on Nancy again !

badme102
04-20-2012, 08:38 PM
NG and her unleashed lawyers are tearing the prosecution apart. Saying they dropped the ball and looked inept, to the point of damaging their case by appearing not to have the necessary evidence to uphold their probable cause document.

It was a bond hearing :rolleyes: <--those are for NG, not you.

She sure loves the drama.

TonyGatto
04-20-2012, 08:39 PM
FT on bloody photo: "I know the neighbor who took it."

badme102
04-20-2012, 08:40 PM
The SPD had already determined Zimmerman acted within his rights. No need to investigate further. Besides, as some have mentioned, it was raining so they had to just stop and abandon the investigation. I guess the SPD doesn't work in the rain. :rolleyes:

IMO

My apologies, as I have CRS, is the SPD being investigated by a higher power? I sure as he77 hope so.

badme102
04-20-2012, 08:41 PM
FT on bloody photo: "I know the neighbor who took it."

Did he have a mirror in front of him at the time?

suzihawk
04-20-2012, 08:44 PM
FT on bloody photo: "I know the neighbor who took it."

I'll just bet he does. ;)

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 08:45 PM
FT on bloody photo: "I know the neighbor who took it."

He's so transparent! I'm not even watching and I can see right through him.

gxm
04-20-2012, 08:45 PM
ITA. Just disgusting. I wish they had stood up and turned their backs to him and remained standing there until he was through with his self serving comments. I read people here saying they just should have left the courtroom if they didn't like it. NO! Why should they? :furious:

I don't think anyone was insinuating that they should have left the courtroom. I know I wasn't. I was saying that a court of law is not a social visit. It is a court of law, and is a place where both sides present their story. Family members should be prepared to hear things they may find upsetting. As the saying goes: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. IMO, the idea that GZ's testimony should take family members' feelings into account is absurd as well as condescending toward the family members.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

elementary
04-20-2012, 08:47 PM
I don't think anyone was insinuating that they should have left the courtroom. I know I wasn't. I was saying that a court of law is not a social visit. It is a court of law, and is a place where both sides present their story. Family members should be prepared to hear things they may find upsetting. As the saying goes: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. IMO, the idea that GZ's testimony should take family members' feelings into account is absurd as well as condescending toward the family members.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

It was not testimony and was irrelevant to court proceedings.

uvamerica
04-20-2012, 08:48 PM
He's so transparent! I'm not even watching and I can see right through him.

Its' OK Nancy cut his mike already :floorlaugh:

octobermoon
04-20-2012, 08:48 PM
My apologies, as I have CRS, is the SPD being investigated by a higher power? I sure as he77 hope so.

What is CRS? LOL I have seen others use the term. :redface:

Adrienne37
04-20-2012, 08:49 PM
FT on bloody photo: "I know the neighbor who took it."

LOL - I bet he does.


~jmo~

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 08:51 PM
I don't think anyone was insinuating that they should have left the courtroom. I know I wasn't. I was saying that a court of law is not a social visit. It is a court of law, and is a place where both sides present their story. Family members should be prepared to hear things they may find upsetting. As the saying goes: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. IMO, the idea that GZ's testimony should take family members' feelings into account is absurd as well as condescending toward the family members.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

His apology was self-serving. It was his way of saying "Look -- I'm sorry your kid is dead, but I had every right to kill him because I assumed he had a gun and was older." :banghead:

If Trayvon would have had a gun... then WHY was he reaching for George's gun as he claims? It just makes no sense.

annalia
04-20-2012, 08:51 PM
It was not testimony and was irrelevant to court proceedings.

Exactly! It was not evidence, it was not testimony, and it was specifically directed at and meant for the parents. He even said that it was meant for the parents.

Zero, zilch, nada to do with either testimony or evidence.

And since it has nothing to do with evidence or court proceedings, he most certainly should have taken the parents feelings into account, especially considering they had just rejected his attempt to meet with them for the same reason.

JMHO

grandmaj
04-20-2012, 08:51 PM
Has anyone found the link to the full hearing?

Emeralgem
04-20-2012, 08:52 PM
I don't think anyone was insinuating that they should have left the courtroom. I know I wasn't. I was saying that a court of law is not a social visit. It is a court of law, and is a place where both sides present their story. Family members should be prepared to hear things they may find upsetting. As the saying goes: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. IMO, the idea that GZ's testimony should take family members' feelings into account is absurd as well as condescending toward the family members.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:


I flat out stated they should have stood up and turned their backs to him or left the courtroom...

uvamerica
04-20-2012, 08:54 PM
Has anyone found the link to the full hearing?

Here's one Grandmaj , http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

Lovejac
04-20-2012, 08:55 PM
Has anyone found the link to the full hearing?

I would love to find it as well. My cable was acting sketchy today AND my speakers on my laptop would not un-mute.

Thank you to all of you wonderful members that kept updating the thread during the hearing! :blowkiss:

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 08:55 PM
"I didn't know if he had a gun." :banghead: That still makes me mad! If he had a flippin' gun he wouldn't have been "reaching" for yours like you claim! Let's not forget, it was you George, you that was "reaching" to get your "phone" when Trayvon seen the gun? If Trayvon had a gun of his own, don't you think that would have been the time to pull it out? This was before any physical altercation??

MOO

Adrienne37
04-20-2012, 08:55 PM
It was not testimony and was irrelevant to court proceedings.

Not to mention the fact that it wasn't even truthful.


~jmo~

suzihawk
04-20-2012, 08:57 PM
I don't think anyone was insinuating that they should have left the courtroom. I know I wasn't. I was saying that a court of law is not a social visit. It is a court of law, and is a place where both sides present their story. Family members should be prepared to hear things they may find upsetting. As the saying goes: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. IMO, the idea that GZ's testimony should take family members' feelings into account is absurd as well as condescending toward the family members.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Testimony is one thing. Using the platform to ambush the parents for his own self serving purposes is quite another. I could understand if this type of statement was made during a sentencing hearing. A bond hearing was not the time or place. Totally inappropriate! IMO, of course.

katydid23
04-20-2012, 08:58 PM
It was a bond hearing :rolleyes: <--those are for NG, not you.

She sure loves the drama.

But even at a bond hearing, the LEAD INVESTIGATOR, the one who signed the charging document, which sets out the probable cause statement, should be able to answer basic questions like the ones he was asked.

It made them look weak and it made people doubt their ability to back up these charges. And like NG said, if this same investigator tries to introduce the evidence in the trial, then he will be asked why he said there was none at the first hearing.

suzihawk
04-20-2012, 08:58 PM
What is CRS? LOL I have seen others use the term. :redface:

Can't Remember Sh... er... Squat

:)

mfcmom
04-20-2012, 08:58 PM
Wonder how there could be all that blood if it was supposed to be raining so hard that Trayvon had to put up his hoodie? JMO

Emeralgem
04-20-2012, 08:59 PM
Not to mention the fact that it wasn't even truthful.


~jmo~

IMHO.. He has proven he is a liar..JMHO

LolaMoon08
04-20-2012, 09:01 PM
When they have that whole SYG hearing, does the prosecution get to show what they have to disprove George's events of what happened and how they do not make sense? And that he has lied?

MOO

gxm
04-20-2012, 09:01 PM
It was not testimony and was irrelevant to court proceedings.

BBM (below)

Excerpts from Zimmerman's apology, testimony (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/20/excerpts-from-zimmerman-apology-testimony/)

Excerpts From Zimmerman's Apology, Testimony (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/excerpts-zimmermans-apology-testimony-16183091#.T5IERY6ONtk)

Martin's parents, Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton, were in the courtroom as a judge heard testimony before deciding to grant Zimmerman's request for bond, which was set at $150,000. Zimmerman has been charged with second-degree murder in the Feb. 26 shooting of the unarmed 17-year-old. He has claimed self-defense.



Zimmerman was wearing a suit but was in shackles as he took the stand. (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57417770/zimmerman-to-martins-parents-im-sorry/)

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

grandmaj
04-20-2012, 09:02 PM
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57417770/zimmerman-to-martins-parents-i-am-sorry/?tag=re1.channel

This is the recorded portion where he apologizes and the prosecutor questions him.

Adrienne37
04-20-2012, 09:04 PM
IMHO.. He has proven he is a liar..JMHO

Yes indeed he has. Seems like Bernie De La Rionda proved that quite a few times today as well. Seems he learned that type of behavior pretty well considering that his father lied under oath today as well.


~jmo~

Sensei
04-20-2012, 09:08 PM
Wonder how there could be all that blood if it was supposed to be raining so hard that Trayvon had to put up his hoodie? JMO

Wonder where all the blood went, since it obviously did not drip on his collar or the back of his jacket or anywhere on his shirt. I will also say that IMO if the area they are showing is where his injuries were then the only way that Trayvon made those injuries by beating his head against concrete was if he was holding him upside down by his feet.

I certainly hope that there is more to that photograph than that, since that could have been anything smeared on his head, and in fact, there is no evidence that that is in fact a picture of George Zimmerman...I really hope that there is more to be seen here if they are going to claim this horrific injury IMO JMHO and stuff.

gxm
04-20-2012, 09:09 PM
I know people have pretty random thoughts in their heads sometimes but I find it a little implausible that a person who is assaulted and fearful for his life would think about the assailant's age at that moment. Why would it make a difference if you're getting your skull broken by a 17 year old or a 25 year old?

GZ may judge 17-year olds as less of a threat, but when/if TM decked him, he felt he was involved in a struggle where he and his alleged assailant were more of a match. I can't speak for anyone else but as my attacker was mopping the floor with me, the thought that I was over-matched was a very persistent one.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

csziggy
04-20-2012, 09:09 PM
What is CRS? LOL I have seen others use the term. :redface:
Can't Remember "Stuff" :seeya:

badme102
04-20-2012, 09:10 PM
What is CRS? LOL I have seen others use the term. :redface:

Ummmm...Can't remember 'shi...p' :blushing::blushing:

octobermoon
04-20-2012, 09:11 PM
Can't Remember Sh... er... Squat

:)

:floorlaugh:

I thought it had something to do with that other case in FL.

:doh:

uvamerica
04-20-2012, 09:14 PM
Was thinking about the investigator on the stand today, he's one of the original LE that was at the scene, I expect the investigators, (except Serino) and cops that fumbled the first investigation to get raked over the coals. And rightly so. What is important is the 2nd investigation and its investigators, what THEY found is gonna be key to getting a conviction. The prosecution is definitely playing their cards close to the vest. And I cannot wait to see what they have !

Lovejac
04-20-2012, 09:14 PM
Can't Remember Sh... er... Squat

:)

Oh my! I've had that many times. I didn't know there was a term for it!

octobermoon
04-20-2012, 09:16 PM
Somewhere over the rainbow my father is smiling saying

"that's my girl, she doesn't know #$%^"

:D :giggle:

Lovejac
04-20-2012, 09:17 PM
Here's one Grandmaj , http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

:woohoo::woohoo:

mercuriod
04-20-2012, 09:17 PM
Everyone I know who carries, and it is a significant number of people, carry some kind of hollowpoint. They also neither preach nor practice shooting to wound.

When using a gun for self-defense maximum "stopping power" with as little collateral damage risk as possible is the ideal. For home defense I rely on two 100lb plus dogs, but if a bear came through my window screen (it happens here) I would bust out a shotgun for the same reasons. Maximum stopping power, not likely to go through my wall and hit a neighbor.

This is absolutely correct, I took my concealed to carry course from my local LE, during this course this is the ammo they recommend and prefer.

katydid23
04-20-2012, 09:22 PM
Was thinking about the investigator on the stand today, he's one of the original LE that was at the scene, I expect the investigators, (except Serino) and cops that fumbled the first investigation to get raked over the coals. And rightly so. What is important is the 2nd investigation and its investigators, what THEY found is gonna be key to getting a conviction. The prosecution is definitely playing their cards close to the vest. And I cannot wait to see what they have !

No, imo. It is all the SAME evidence. This investigator answers for ALL of the prosecution when he says there is no evidence, and no eye witness testimony that proves who took the first swing. There is not different answers to those questions depending upon which investigator you ask.

Adrienne37
04-20-2012, 09:23 PM
Was thinking about the investigator on the stand today, he's one of the original LE that was at the scene, I expect the investigators, (except Serino) and cops that fumbled the first investigation to get raked over the coals. And rightly so. What is important is the 2nd investigation and its investigators, what THEY found is gonna be key to getting a conviction. The prosecution is definitely playing their cards close to the vest. And I cannot wait to see what they have !

I thought the investigator on the stand today was with Angela Corey's office out of Jacksonville. I know they gave his credentials right before calling him to the stand but perhaps I misunderstood. She has two investigators who are investigating this case for her right now.



~jmo~

annalia
04-20-2012, 09:29 PM
Testimony is one thing. Using the platform to ambush the parents for his own self serving purposes is quite another. I could understand if this type of statement was made during a sentencing hearing. A bond hearing was not the time or place. Totally inappropriate! IMO, of course.

BBM

And had the parents not been in the courtroom, he would not have taken the stand to apologize to them, so I don't see how that could ahev been a regular part of the court proceedings. That was exactly the reason he took the stand, to apologize to the parents.

So had the parents not been there, he probably would have not even taken the stand. So it really has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the parents can take the heat, or whether or not he should have had to take their feelings into account. It simply would never have happened had they not been in the courtroom today, he used them being in the courtroom to do it. MOM even noted afterwards that the family had rejected his previous attempt.

But he was under oath, so those lies of his may come back to bite him if it goes to trial.

JMHO

mfcmom
04-20-2012, 09:30 PM
I thought the investigator on the stand today was with Angela Corey's office out of Jacksonville. I know they gave his credentials right before calling him to the stand but perhaps I misunderstood. She has two investigators who are investigating this case for her right now.



~jmo~
I believe it was the defense that called this investigator, therefore his being "unprepared" to take the stand. This was told by Jeff Ashton on Piers Morgan.

Cher352
04-20-2012, 09:33 PM
I just realized that we saw a 3+ hr FL courtroom precedure today without 1 sidebar...LOL!!!

i.b.nora
04-20-2012, 09:35 PM
Was thinking about the investigator on the stand today, he's one of the original LE that was at the scene, I expect the investigators, (except Serino) and cops that fumbled the first investigation to get raked over the coals. And rightly so. What is important is the 2nd investigation and its investigators, what THEY found is gonna be key to getting a conviction. The prosecution is definitely playing their cards close to the vest. And I cannot wait to see what they have !
Are you sure of that? I thought this was one of Corey's investigators.

grandmaj
04-20-2012, 09:36 PM
Concerned Papa asked me to listen to this tape. I assume because I moderate and participate in the scanner forum. :lol:

Trayvon Martin EMC Ambulance Audio Recording - YouTube

What I am hearing on this tape is only dispatch, cancellation of the second responding units. Discussion about a non-responsive patient. An update that there is no "code"
no vitals, meaning they are not going to work the patient. Helicopter not flying because of weather.

The most important thing I hear is that someone is laying in the grass. He is unresponsive.

I hear them signing off and I hear them being directed to what I believe to be other channels. She is saying "Select 9 bravo and select 9 echo" acknowledge. So she is asking them to move to these channels and acknowledge they heard her.

What I find very interesting is I believe this tape might be redacted. It ends abruptly at the end. You never hear them clear the scene and you never hear the reports of injuries other than the initial minutes "not responsive no vitals". This IMO is not an entire tape nor is it the only tape.

PaintingAnemone
04-20-2012, 09:37 PM
I didn't see that anyone had posted this yet (if so, I apologize for the duplication), but CNN has a transcript of today's bond hearing. I find Gilbreath's testimony EXTREMELY interesting.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Gilbreath, I didn't know we were going to be trying the case, I'm going to add up -- I apologize. I want to add some questions to -- you had reviewed or other members of the team had reviewed his interviews, is that not true.

GILBREATH: That is --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he gave -- he the defendant gave numerous interviews to the police did he not.

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And isn't it true that a lot of statements that he made do not make sense in terms of the injuries that he described. Did he not describe to the police that Mr. Martin had him on the ground and kept bashing his head on the concrete over and over and just physically beating him with his hands?

GILBREATH: He has said that, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And isn't it true that there is evidence that indicates that's not true?

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did he also not state that at some point, he the defendant -- did he not state or claim that the victim in this case, Mr. Martin, put both hands one over his mouth and one over his nose so that he couldn't breathe?

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And all of sudden that's when he was able to get free and grab the gun. Or I'm sorry, Martin was grabbing for the gun, did he not claim that too at some point. climb that?

GILBREATH: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But -- and I'm going to get into every little contradiction but wouldn't you agree that a lot of his statements can be contradicted by the evidence either witnesses or just based on what he says himself?

GILBREATH: Yes.

uvamerica
04-20-2012, 09:41 PM
I thought the investigator on the stand today was with Angela Corey's office out of Jacksonville. I know they gave his credentials right before calling him to the stand but perhaps I misunderstood. She has two investigators who are investigating this case for her right now.



~jmo~



Thanks Adrienne
Hmm, I got the impression he was one of the original investigators (I'm probably wrong tho) I'd need to find out for sure.

Adrienne37
04-20-2012, 09:42 PM
Thanks Adrienne
Hmm, I got the impression he was one of the original investigators (I'm probably wrong tho) I'd need to find out for sure.

Sure, I'm almost certain he is with Corey's office.

impatientredhead
04-20-2012, 09:42 PM
Today was all about swinging public opinion. If you read the comments under most news stories, especially the bloody shot, it has been highly effective.

GZ is not talking to the jury pool. First and safest route out of this is to get a judge to say it meets the SYG rule. He is making a statement for the judge.

This being a high profile case not everyone is going to want to take the heat of setting him free and may pass the buck just like the SA did when they overcharged him with murder 2. Manslaughter is a much more reasonable charge but the public would have been outraged with anything less than a murder charge.

Overcharging Casey Anthony backfired and let the jury say they didn't PROVE their case. Common sense may tell you what Casey did but the jury said they didn't PROVE it. I don't think they have a murder 2 case. GZ called the police, witnesses put TM on top of the struggle, now their is a photo of GZ's injuries, he is going to get on the stand and say he is sorry but what he BELIEVED at the time was different.

Unless he takes a deal, I think he walks.

Inabsentia
04-20-2012, 09:42 PM
As the saying goes: If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. IMO, the idea that GZ's testimony should take family members' feelings into account is absurd as well as condescending toward the family members.:

Certainly GZ should testify in whatever way he wishes so long as he remains truthful, but i think if you are issuing an APOLOGY not taking the feelings of the people you are apologizing to into account is absurd. Moo

katydid23
04-20-2012, 09:43 PM
Thanks Adrienne
Hmm, I got the impression he was one of the original investigators (I'm probably wrong tho) I'd need to find out for sure.

He signed the charging document. That is the statement of the probable cause evidence. And it was that evidence he was asked for today.

Is there any evidence that TM did not start the confrontation?


NO

Sensei
04-20-2012, 09:44 PM
Sure, I'm almost certain he is with Corey's office.

he is one of the two investigators on the case with Angela Coreys office. He stated that his position was investigator for the States Attorney's Office.

Adrienne37
04-20-2012, 09:44 PM
Thanks Adrienne
Hmm, I got the impression he was one of the original investigators (I'm probably wrong tho) I'd need to find out for sure.

Yes, he is with her office. Dale Gilbreath is one of the signatures on the probable cause affidavit as well as T.C. O'Steen.

magnolia
04-20-2012, 09:45 PM
I thought the investigator on the stand today was with Angela Corey's office out of Jacksonville. I know they gave his credentials right before calling him to the stand but perhaps I misunderstood. She has two investigators who are investigating this case for her right now.



~jmo~

I believe you are correct on that. He is an investigator for the State.

katydid23
04-20-2012, 09:45 PM
Sure, I'm almost certain he is with Corey's office.

He let her down, imo.

suzihawk
04-20-2012, 09:46 PM
I thought the investigator on the stand today was with Angela Corey's office out of Jacksonville. I know they gave his credentials right before calling him to the stand but perhaps I misunderstood. She has two investigators who are investigating this case for her right now.



~jmo~

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2012/04/trayvon-martin-shooting-death-affidavit-of-probable-cause-text-version.html

Before me, personally appeared T.C. O'Steen and K.D. Gilbreath, who after being duly sworn; deposes and says:

Your affiants, Investigators T.C. O'Steen, and Dale Gilbreath are members of the State Attorney Office - Fourth Judicial Circuit appointed in the case by State Attorney Angela B. Corey, who was assigned in the case under Executive Order of the Governor 12-72.

mercuriod
04-20-2012, 09:47 PM
I thought the investigator on the stand today was with Angela Corey's office out of Jacksonville. I know they gave his credentials right before calling him to the stand but perhaps I misunderstood. She has two investigators who are investigating this case for her right now.



~jmo~

Yes, he is an investigator with Angela Corey's office out of Jacksonville, he was not involved with the original SPD investigation, he did not get involved in the case until after Gov. Scott (grrr, can't stand the man & I am a republican but didn't vote for him so don't blame me!) assigned the case to Corey.

badme102
04-20-2012, 09:48 PM
Today was all about swinging public opinion. If you read the comments under most news stories, especially the bloody shot, it has been highly effective.
.
Snipped by me

Interesting. I have found quite the opposite and I have been reading all over the place today.
I don't think today's hearing did anything of the kind. People are smart and they do see through GZ's lies.

Lovejac
04-20-2012, 09:48 PM
My opinion of "the apology".

If I were GZ, I would have written a private letter to Tayvon's parents/family very soon after I shot him. I acknowledge that GZ is in a precarious position with regards to what he can and can't say because of the charges against him, but I would have still written a letter and then let my attorney go over it.

GZ can still accept responsibility for what his actions caused regardless of whether he thinks he was justified or not.

His apology did not sound sincere to me. It reminds me of what my 5 yo twin boys do. Austin will come griping to me because Jordan hit him. When I prompt Jordan to apologize, he says, "Sorry, but Austin was copying me or Austin took my toy or Austin blah blah blah", you get the point :)

My response is, and what i am trying to teach my children is there is no BUT in an apology. Take personal responsibility for what YOU have done. Just because someone does something that you don't like, YOU alone are responsible for how YOU react.

KWIM?

impatientredhead
04-20-2012, 09:48 PM
This is absolutely correct, I took my concealed to carry course from my local LE, during this course this is the ammo they recommend and prefer.

Everyone I know that carries has hollow points as well. You have done a great job explaining why, better than I could have. I have my permit and never fired a gun in my life, but all I had to do is sign a form and give my prints. No class, no instruction, no review of our states deadly force rules. Our state says carrying a gun is your right via the constitution, therefore no requirements other than age and lack of criminal record.

New1
04-20-2012, 09:54 PM
I cannot believe the people who are still saying GZ had no injuries to the back of his head even after seeing the picture that was released today.

Sensei
04-20-2012, 09:56 PM
He signed the charging document. That is the statement of the probable cause evidence. And it was that evidence he was asked for today.

Is there any evidence that TM did not start the confrontation?


NO

Except that depends on when you are speaking of the confrontation starting.

It may in fact be that Trayvon did start the physical confrontation, I don't believe that, but if that is even so, the States Attorney's office appears to be saying that the confrontation started when GZ got out of his vehicle to follow Trayvon...that he had if not a lawful order, which I am sure some can and will argue was valid, but that he at the least had instructions from the LE dispatch to cease following Trayvon that he dismissed, and continued to follow, which in their opinion puts Trayvon squarely in the position of standing his ground. The second degree murder vs. manslaughter they have hands down, since they only have to show that whatever actions taken were done with malice or ill will to begin with, and the "Those A@@#$% always geet away, and the F*&in punks, will statisfy that requirement, and they are on tape in George Zimmerman's own voice and indisputable as to who said them and when.

Fact is, I think they have more, there was some discussion on one of the shows about a witness who saw two people running, one following the other, and if this is so, then even without evidence of who struck the first blow, if Zimmerman was actually chasing Martin, then he could not possibly have been standing his ground, and IMO Martin was found far too close to home for Martin to have been chasing Zimmerman. IMO JMHO and stuff.

Sensei
04-20-2012, 10:00 PM
I cannot believe the people who are still saying GZ had no injuries to the back of his head even after seeing the picture that was released today.

There is no medical documentation...and there is no indication that those injuries were sustained by having his head beat against concrete.

Lay on the floor, and see where your head is going to hit the floor...if it is on the crown of your head then something is vastly wrong....those injuries are in the wrong place for that. Those may in fact be injuries, and they may be on George Zimmermans head, but they did not get there in the manner that he claims that they did, and they did a remarkable job of not getting any blood on any of his clothes, since in the video taken 35 minutes after the incident he isn't even wrinkled, no muss or fuss at all. IMO JMHO and stuff.

suzihawk
04-20-2012, 10:02 PM
Everyone I know that carries has hollow points as well. You have done a great job explaining why, better than I could have. I have my permit and never fired a gun in my life, but all I had to do is sign a form and give my prints. No class, no instruction, no review of our states deadly force rules. Our state says carrying a gun is your right via the constitution, therefore no requirements other than age and lack of criminal record.

That's more than a little scary, IMO.

New1
04-20-2012, 10:03 PM
Does anyone else think GZ's injuries may have been caused by scratching himself? Seems to me the two witnesses saw him with his hands behind his head.

No, I don't think that. If you think your head is bleeding, naturally you are going to put your hand back there and feel to see if you feel liquid coming out of your head.

Phoenixfla
04-20-2012, 10:05 PM
Snipped by me

Interesting. I have found quite the opposite and I have been reading all over the place today.
I don't think today's hearing did anything of the kind. People are smart and they do see through GZ's lies.

You know what- that just gave me an idea. I am going to go to 3 or 4 different msm sites, and take a tally of those who think he should be tried and those who think the SYG should apply and ill come back and post my results. (Mods, if its not ok to do this just let me know. )

Any suggestions on what msm websites? I want to get a wide perspective.

impatientredhead
04-20-2012, 10:05 PM
Except that depends on when you are speaking of the confrontation starting.

It may in fact be that Trayvon did start the physical confrontation, I don't believe that, but if that is even so, the States Attorney's office appears to be saying that the confrontation started when GZ got out of his vehicle to follow Trayvon...that he had if not a lawful order, which I am sure some can and will argue was valid, but that he at the least had instructions from the LE dispatch to cease following Trayvon that he dismissed, and continued to follow, which in their opinion puts Trayvon squarely in the position of standing his ground. The second degree murder vs. manslaughter they have hands down, since they only have to show that whatever actions taken were done with malice or ill will to begin with, and the "Those A@@#$% always geet away, and the F*&in punks, will statisfy that requirement, and they are on tape in George Zimmerman's own voice and indisputable as to who said them and when.

Fact is, I think they have more, there was some discussion on one of the shows about a witness who saw two people running, one following the other, and if this is so, then even without evidence of who struck the first blow, if Zimmerman was actually chasing Martin, then he could not possibly have been standing his ground, and IMO Martin was found far too close to home for Martin to have been chasing Zimmerman. IMO JMHO and stuff.


Using your post as a jumping point.... everyone seems to be hanging a lot of this case on following TM in defiance of a police order. The 911 operator is not only not a police officer, what they actually said is "we don't need you to do that."

If they had the authority to give a citizen a legally binding order it wasn't even worded as one.

I have done many things/chores/favors for someone that said they didn't NEED me to do it.

Had TM gotten the gun away from GZ and shot GZ it would be relevant, say GZs family tried to sue someone, GZ would have been on notice that he his actions were not requested, not on behalf of the police department, yada yada

I think way too much weight is being given to the GZ didn't follow an order from the police. The police weren't there yet and the dispatcher didn't TELL him not to do anything. Just that it wasn't needed.

csziggy
04-20-2012, 10:06 PM
Except that depends on when you are speaking of the confrontation starting.

It may in fact be that Trayvon did start the physical confrontation, I don't believe that, but if that is even so, the States Attorney's office appears to be saying that the confrontation started when GZ got out of his vehicle to follow Trayvon...that he had if not a lawful order, which I am sure some can and will argue was valid, but that he at the least had instructions from the LE dispatch to cease following Trayvon that he dismissed, and continued to follow, which in their opinion puts Trayvon squarely in the position of standing his ground. The second degree murder vs. manslaughter they have hands down, since they only have to show that whatever actions taken were done with malice or ill will to begin with, and the "Those A@@#$% always geet away, and the F*&in punks, will statisfy that requirement, and they are on tape in George Zimmerman's own voice and indisputable as to who said them and when.

Fact is, I think they have more, there was some discussion on one of the shows about a witness who saw two people running, one following the other, and if this is so, then even without evidence of who struck the first blow, if Zimmerman was actually chasing Martin, then he could not possibly have been standing his ground, and IMO Martin was found far too close to home for Martin to have been chasing Zimmerman. IMO JMHO and stuff.

Yes, the statement about the people running was part of the investigator's testimony just after 1:37:00 mark on the recording here:
George Zimmerman bond hearing
http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

impatientredhead
04-20-2012, 10:08 PM
That's more than a little scary, IMO.

In all honesty I think it is absurd as well. If someone broke into the house while I was home alone the last thing I would do is reach for the gun, I am not comfortable with it. I was shocked I didn't have to take a class to get my gun license. Had to take a written and physical test when I wanted to drive, carry a concealed weapon, go ahead, feel free.

MsCharlieChan
04-20-2012, 10:09 PM
Wonder where all the blood went, since it obviously did not drip on his collar or the back of his jacket or anywhere on his shirt.

Quite true, and also this... another reason the bloody head doesn't ring true ....

If your head is being rammed on the walkway more than once, I'd expect to see some SMEARED PATCHES of blood underneath the fresh trickles.

Then, if you had to "scooch" your head over into the grass, the grass would have rubbed the blood into a thin, smear patch as well... Over top of this smearing you would, again, see fresh streams trickling down.

This photo seems to show no evidence of smearing; it doesn't look like the head has been dragged over any grass.

Just like when you spill juice or soda and try to wipe it up, the towel (or concrete or grass) spreads it and smears it around.

This blood resembles organized chaos. AKA fakely applied in a way that doesn't match the actions explained by GZ.

katydid23
04-20-2012, 10:10 PM
Except that depends on when you are speaking of the confrontation starting.

It may in fact be that Trayvon did start the physical confrontation, I don't believe that, but if that is even so, the States Attorney's office appears to be saying that the confrontation started when GZ got out of his vehicle to follow Trayvon...that he had if not a lawful order, which I am sure some can and will argue was valid, but that he at the least had instructions from the LE dispatch to cease following Trayvon that he dismissed, and continued to follow, which in their opinion puts Trayvon squarely in the position of standing his ground. The second degree murder vs. manslaughter they have hands down, since they only have to show that whatever actions taken were done with malice or ill will to begin with, and the "Those A@@#$% always geet away, and the F*&in punks, will statisfy that requirement, and they are on tape in George Zimmerman's own voice and indisputable as to who said them and when.

Fact is, I think they have more, there was some discussion on one of the shows about a witness who saw two people running, one following the other, and if this is so, then even without evidence of who struck the first blow, if Zimmerman was actually chasing Martin, then he could not possibly have been standing his ground, and IMO Martin was found far too close to home for Martin to have been chasing Zimmerman. IMO JMHO and stuff.

But he also said there was no evidence that GZ ignored the request not to follow and instead returned towards his truck. So that hurts the state , imo.

I agree about the mnslaughter. They should have arrested him for that the first night. But going after 2nd degree murder is too much, imo.

impatientredhead
04-20-2012, 10:12 PM
Quite true, and also this... another reason the bloody head doesn't ring true ....

If your head is being rammed on the walkway more than once, I'd expect to see some SMEARED PATCHES of blood underneath the fresh trickles.

Then, if you had to "scooch" your head over into the grass, the grass would have rubbed the blood into a thin, smear patch as well... Over top of this smearing you would, again, see fresh streams trickling down.

This photo seems to show no evidence of smearing; it doesn't look like the head has been dragged over any grass.

Just like when you spill juice or soda and try to wipe it up, the towel (or concrete or grass) spreads it and smears it around.

This blood resembles organized chaos. AKA fakely applied in a way that doesn't match the actions explained by GZ.

I think it looks like the wound has already been cleaned and then bled again.

Adrienne37
04-20-2012, 10:14 PM
I didn't see that anyone had posted this yet (if so, I apologize for the duplication), but CNN has a transcript of today's bond hearing. I find Gilbreath's testimony EXTREMELY interesting.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html

Thanks Painting for posting that. I believe the prosecution has a lot more evidence than they are willing to admit at this point and that is why Mr. Gilbreath came off at times as being evasive. Things I gathered from the hearing today are: 1. Zimmerman repeatedly changed his story, obviously to fit with what he was being questioned about at that time. 2. The injuries that he sustained are not consistent with any of the evidence that the state has at this point. 3. Every story he has brought forth, the state has witnesses to prove otherwise. 4. Zimmerman is not afraid to lie under oath so this will be a pattern that is repeated throughout the course of the trial. 5. His family is not above lying to support his claims as evidenced by their lies today under oath. 6. Zimmerman acting like he was a cop, with his choice of weapon, his bullets, and now finding out that he had tactical flashlights on his person when LE arrived at the scene. 7. Zimmerman really is a depraved individual.



~jmo~

suzihawk
04-20-2012, 10:15 PM
I think it looks like the wound has already been cleaned and then bled again.

The picture was taken 3 minutes after the shooting - allegedly.

IMO

Lake Erie Princess
04-20-2012, 10:18 PM
There is no medical documentation...and there is no indication that those injuries were sustained by having his head beat against concrete.

Lay on the floor, and see where your head is going to hit the floor...if it is on the crown of your head then something is vastly wrong....those injuries are in the wrong place for that. Those may in fact be injuries, and they may be on George Zimmermans head, but they did not get there in the manner that he claims that they did, and they did a remarkable job of not getting any blood on any of his clothes, since in the video taken 35 minutes after the incident he isn't even wrinkled, no muss or fuss at all. IMO JMHO and stuff.

I do not believe the pics of GZ's head are legitimate.
Where did the blood go from his clothing ? I saw none on tv.
Head wounds bleed a lot ! Something is not right with this picture.
IMO it was photoshopped ???

m00c0w
04-20-2012, 10:20 PM
I do not believe the pics of GZ's head are legitimate.
Where did the blood go from his clothing ? I saw none on tv.
Head wounds bleed a lot ! Something is not right with this picture.
IMO it was photoshopped ???
What blood from his clothing?

Reader
04-20-2012, 10:20 PM
Wonder where all the blood went, since it obviously did not drip on his collar or the back of his jacket or anywhere on his shirt. I will also say that IMO if the area they are showing is where his injuries were then the only way that Trayvon made those injuries by beating his head against concrete was if he was holding him upside down by his feet.

I certainly hope that there is more to that photograph than that, since that could have been anything smeared on his head, and in fact, there is no evidence that that is in fact a picture of George Zimmerman...I really hope that there is more to be seen here if they are going to claim this horrific injury IMO JMHO and stuff.

Tell the truth, it looks fake to me...there's all kinds of ways to make these types of photos...just in time for the bond hearing!

It would not be admissible as evidence anyway...