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mikeysmommom
04-22-2012, 08:29 PM
Yes, but according to GZ, there was NO CHASE. He walked back to his car and was jumped from behind.

The state does have a witness who saw one person chasing, or running after, another person.

So how is that explained?

A witness who saw shadows, could be any ones shadow.Others where walking their dogs,maybe some were running to get in from the rain.

HiHater
04-22-2012, 08:32 PM
Do you really think LE would let anyone, anyone other than LE get near GZ after taking a gun away from him???? Something just does not make sense about someone taking a picture of his head three minutes after he shot someone. Who would do that unless GZ asked for them to do so??? GZ was attended to by an EMT as soon as the scene was secured so his head would have been cleaned up right away. Something very unnatural about the picture being taken at that time unless there is more to the picture. jmo

Could the photog be a LE official? That's the only way it would make sense to me...

katydid23
04-22-2012, 08:32 PM
"I paid very close attention to the metal clicking and knocking noises" I also note that the background sound of the outdoor elements gets more quiet after the knocking sounds. Enough even to hear single water drops land in a puddle. And prior to the tapping you hear him say "sh** no!". And prior to that is the metal clicking/slide sound. The same kind of sound you may get from trying and releasing the handle of a door from a screen porch that is locked. Hence the swearing.

So he cocked his gun and went looking for TM in his home, but the door was locked?

LambChop
04-22-2012, 08:33 PM
A witness who saw shadows, could be any ones shadow.Others where walking their dogs,maybe some were running to get in from the rain.

I believe this was while they were shouting and Mary C. said she could hear them arguing from a couple of condos away. I don't think anyone else was out side running in the rain towards the crime scene at that exact moment. jmo

Boytwnmom
04-22-2012, 08:36 PM
us believe and it may even get ugly if the defense tries to make Trayvon out to be a "thug" type guy perhaps playing subtly or not so subtly on racial stereotypes. They need people to believe that Trayvon, with no history of violence at all suddenly and instantaneously (as one minute he's talking to his GF and the next he's attempting to kill a stranger) decided to attack the strange guy who he thought he had lost. We're not supposed to believe that GZ, who is the instigator of this whole encounter, with his decision that TM was a criminal and he needed to call 911 on him and expresses how sick he is of these a%$holes getting away and then takes his gun and tactical flashlight and follows TM, we're not supposed to believe that GZ made the encounter physical in his effort to detain TM and prevent him from "getting away" like all the others did. No, it's all TM's fault. To get there they have to make Trayvon a vicious young thug and I foresee a whole lotta ugly in that quest as there is zero actual evidence that he was in any way predisposed to violence, fighting, aggression etc.


Right after his girlfriend told him to run and he agreed to do it? I don't think so. Trayvon did not decide he was going to teach an armed madman a lesson. That is just ridiculous on it's face. He's not even violent in the least. Why would he all of sudden decide to jump an armed, older man coming after him? He wouldn't. He would try to get away. He was not some thug from the hood. I wish people would stop characterizing him that way. There is absolutely NOTHING to suggest that TM was a violent thug at all. He was an unarmed teenager walking home from the store who was accosted and shot by GZ. I don't understand why that is so darn hard to believe.

LambChop
04-22-2012, 08:36 PM
Could the photog be a LE official? That's the only way it would make sense to me...

That would be LE's evidence and would not have been released by a private citizen which is what ABC is saying. The picture was provided by someone who shall be nameless. jmo

Adrienne37
04-22-2012, 08:40 PM
I believe this was while they were shouting and Mary C. said she could hear them arguing from a couple of condos away. I don't think anyone else was out side running in the rain towards the crime scene at that exact moment. jmo

Thank the Lord or else there might have been other innocent victims of Zimmerman that night.



~jmo~

jaded cat
04-22-2012, 08:40 PM
If what they do is prostitution, wouldn't that make them a prostitute?

Totally O/T but, OMG, I'm in love with your dog! That is a cute face.

TonyGatto
04-22-2012, 08:41 PM
I believe LE wanted GZ arrested that night. It was Mr. Wolfinger who said no. Since we have not seen any investigator reports, just the initial one's from the responding officers we do not know what they found, what they have, what their investigation turned up. But if you listen very carefully to Mr. Gilbreath he gave us some very interesting clues. jmo

I think Gilbreath could have done a better job in answering the question, but I agree, he definitely gave the impression: you just waint and hear the stories GZ told us.

HiHater
04-22-2012, 08:43 PM
Did Richard Hornsby just say that LE in general is racist?

TonyGatto
04-22-2012, 08:43 PM
Could the photog be a LE official? That's the only way it would make sense to me...

FT said it was taken by a neighbor.

HiHater
04-22-2012, 08:44 PM
So he cocked his gun and went looking for TM in his home, but the door was locked?

It's not that far off from what you're claiming the SA said....:moo:

HiHater
04-22-2012, 08:45 PM
A witness who saw shadows, could be any ones shadow.Others where walking their dogs,maybe some were running to get in from the rain.

I have already linked to where the state attorney/investigator discuss a witness who saw a person chasing another person. I have not read anything about shadow. Please link.

LambChop
04-22-2012, 08:46 PM
us believe and it may even get ugly if the defense tries to make Trayvon out to be a "thug" type guy perhaps playing subtly or not so subtly on racial stereotypes. They need people to believe that Trayvon, with no history of violence at all suddenly and instantaneously (as one minute he's talking to his GF and the next he's attempting to kill a stranger) decided to attack the strange guy who he thought he had lost. We're not supposed to believe that GZ, who is the instigator of this whole encounter, with his decision that TM was a criminal and he needed to call 911 on him and expresses how sick he is of these a%$holes getting away and then takes his gun and tactical flashlight and follows TM, we're not supposed to believe that GZ made the encounter physical in his effort to detain TM and prevent him from "getting away" like all the others did. No, it's all TM's fault. To get there they have to make Trayvon a vicious young thug and I foresee a whole lotta ugly in that quest as there is zero actual evidence that he was in any way predisposed to violence, fighting, aggression etc.

I think the primary question here is why did GZ follow TM when he already told LE TM was headed for the back gate. What was GZ intending to do once he caught up with TM? GZ claims he was fearful but then goes after TM. To what end? What did GZ hope to accomplish? We know there was an encounter prior to the fight because of the GF's accounting of TM asking why are you following me. I know if I were on a jury that is all I would need to know to feel that TM was fearful of why GZ was following him. Then to have GZ ask what are you doing here, instead of I'm with NWP and I was checking to make sure you live here. That would convince me that GZ did indeed try to keep TM from running off until LE arrived and TM was about to get into the fight of his life without a choice. jmo

Tulessa
04-22-2012, 08:47 PM
A witness who saw shadows, could be any ones shadow.Others where walking their dogs,maybe some were running to get in from the rain.

Link Please?

katydid23
04-22-2012, 08:47 PM
It's not that far off from what you're claiming the SA said....:moo:

The SA said the witness saw shadows running from NEAR to TM's home to where the shooting took place. And so I asked WHY TM ran away from his home, meaning NEAR HIS HOME, and went the opposite direction.

If he was already near home then why go the other way?

MsCharlieChan
04-22-2012, 08:48 PM
It was a bond hearing not a trial. Mr. Gilbreath did not receive a subpoena and had no expectations of being called. The judge pretty much said that when he said.....this is pretty standard, we do it all the time. The only concerns should have been was GZ a flight risk and the amount of bond. This is why the prosecutor apologized to Mr. Gilbreath and made the comment about he did not know they were going to try GZ he thought it was only a bond hearing. I think they did pretty good considering the questions MOM asked and how Mr. Gilbreath tried not to give MOM too much information. He did chose his words carefully. jmo

I understand all of that... But it still came off unfavorably looking for the State. Based on how touchy Mr. De la Rionda (sp?) was during the press conference, he didn't feel good about their performance at the bond hearing, either.

I get that the State didn't want to reveal all their cards prematurely. I just wonder if they could have played it a slither less close to the vest. Unfortunately, this allowed O'Mara to control everything and get a 'win' for his client.

lauriej
04-22-2012, 08:50 PM
Do you really think LE would let anyone, anyone other than LE get near GZ after taking a gun away from him???? Something just does not make sense about someone taking a picture of his head three minutes after he shot someone. Who would do that unless GZ asked for them to do so??? GZ was attended to by an EMT as soon as the scene was secured so his head would have been cleaned up right away. Something very unnatural about the picture being taken at that time unless there is more to the picture. jmo

--the "picture was taken 3 minutes after the shooting" was the math of ABC news, which is incorrect.

--the shot rang out , at approx. 7:16:48 (something like that, based on the 911 call where we HEAR the *bang!*) ----the iphone pic was taken at 7:19:07-----which would be "about TWO minutes after the shooting".

--the officers were either enroute or arriving around 7:17 ( even the one 'arriving' went initially to the address 1st given by george---the clubhouse-)then heard that 911 calls were flooding in, went to the shooting location...

--the retired schoolteacher call---she said that after the shooting 'someone's out there now, someone w/ a flashlight..'-----it's quite possible that the photographer ( who heard the fight/didn't see it ) went out immediatley after----took the pic just prior to LE getting on scene.

--the bizarro part to me-----what kind of freak takes a pic like that when there's a dead body lying there on the grass? the LAST thing that would occur to me is , hey---i wanna get a picture of the blood on george's head..

Tulessa
04-22-2012, 08:51 PM
Listening to WS Radio. You guys are missing a good one.

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 08:52 PM
Totally O/T but, OMG, I'm in love with your dog! That is a cute face.

Thanks. Thats Yogi the Corgi.

LambChop
04-22-2012, 08:53 PM
I think Gilbreath could have done a better job in answering the question, but I agree, he definitely gave the impression: you just waint and hear the stories GZ told us.

I'm thinking MOM wanted information now instead of waiting for discovery to get some answers and was hoping Mr. Gilbreath would provide them. I think Mr. Gilbreath was trying to answer the questions without giving up too much information. jmo

HiHater
04-22-2012, 08:53 PM
The SA said the witness saw shadows running from NEAR to TM's home to where the shooting took place. And so I asked WHY TM ran away from his home, meaning NEAR HIS HOME, and went the opposite direction.

If he was already near home then why go the other way?

Link to where the SA said "shadows" please. I have asked for this a little bit up thread. Thanks.

& the state attorney never said he went the other way. You are choosing to overlook the fact that the SA said Trayvon was killed on a direct path to his home.

Adrienne37
04-22-2012, 08:54 PM
--the "picture was taken 3 minutes after the shooting" was the math of ABC news, which is incorrect.

--the shot rang out , at approx. 7:16:48 (something like that, based on the 911 call where we HEAR the *bang!*) ----the iphone pic was taken at 7:19:07-----which would be "about TWO minutes after the shooting".

--the officers were either enroute or arriving around 7:17 ( even the one 'arriving' went initially to the address 1st given by george---the clubhouse-)then heard that 911 calls were flooding in, went to the shooting location...

--the retired schoolteacher call---she said that after the shooting 'someone's out there now, someone w/ a flashlight..'-----it's quite possible that the photographer ( who heard the fight/didn't see it ) went out immediatley after----took the pic just prior to LE getting on scene.

--the bizarro part to me-----what kind of freak takes a pic like that when there's a dead body lying there on the grass? the LAST thing that would occur to me is , hey---i wanna get a picture of the blood on george's head..

I wouldn't be surprised to find that this very same person took pictures of Trayvon's lifeless body laying there. Absolutely nothing would surprise me in this case.


~jmo~

Tulessa
04-22-2012, 08:56 PM
Link to where the SA said "shadows" please. I have asked for this a little bit up thread. Thanks.

& the state attorney never said he went the other way. You are choosing to overlook the fact that the SA said Trayvon was killed on a direct path to his home.
So have I. Maybe they are hunting the link up for us. :)

grandmaj
04-22-2012, 08:57 PM
Remember the rules:
The Rules - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
Remember the "ignore" feature on your profile page.
Please stick with the facts as reported by LE or MSM, and link them. Link them often if necessary.
Please clearly state when it is your opinion. If you are making an inference please clearly outline and link the facts and evidence that have led you to form that inference. Wild speculation about any case player has no place here.
Please PM a mod with any questions or concerns and alert any TOS violations or offensive posts.
And finally, PLEASE address one another respectfully. Last reminder.

From the opening post peeps...... stick with the rules
I'm seeing some pretty wild speculative comments. On both sides of this fence. That is not fair to the discussion.

Please follow the rules. This post lands at random.

MsCharlieChan
04-22-2012, 08:58 PM
The SA said the witness saw shadows running from NEAR to TM's home to where the shooting took place. And so I asked WHY TM ran away from his home, meaning NEAR HIS HOME, and went the opposite direction.

If he was already near home then why go the other way?

It may have been because it would take too long to get inside the house. Maybe TM knew GZ would trap him if he started fumbling with his house keys or had to ring the doorbell.

As a football player, he may have thought he could outrun GZ and lose him. While not revealing to the "nut following him" where he and his family lived.

I'd like to know exactly how close to his door TM was. If he was really close to his door, and GZ was all the way up there -- close enough for TM to hit him -- that's one bold, obsessed neighborhood watchman. Who still didn't identify himself as such.

mikeysmommom
04-22-2012, 08:59 PM
I have already linked to where the state attorney/investigator discuss a witness who saw a person chasing another person. I have not read anything about shadow. Please link.

I have went back 5 pages many posters stated it but have not found the link yet.

CathyinTexas
04-22-2012, 08:59 PM
This is OT but there are more georgezimmermans out there: the armed neighborhood watch in action in Georgia attacking new neighbors

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/new-homeowners-met-gun-wielding-neighbors/nMd7C/

I am beyond shocked at how many get away with brandishing or using guns! I personally don't own a gun, but have always supported law abiding citizens owning guns for hunting and protection in their home. I think, though that in instances like this, the gun wielders should be prosecuted. The police should have been called if they really believed the house was being burglarized.

HiHater
04-22-2012, 09:01 PM
I have went back 5 pages many posters stated it but have not found the link yet.

Okay so people are just repeatedly stating this as fact...I see a problem with that, but maybe it's just me.

LambChop
04-22-2012, 09:01 PM
I understand all of that... But it still came off unfavorably looking for the State. Based on how touchy Mr. De la Rionda (sp?) was during the press conference, he didn't feel good about their performance at the bond hearing, either.

I get that the State didn't want to reveal all their cards prematurely. I just wonder if they could have played it a slither less close to the vest. Unfortunately, this allowed O'Mara to control everything and get a 'win' for his client.

They still have the SYG hearing to go through yet. Mr. De la Rionda had a right to be touchy. MOM tried to turn it into a trial hearing because he wanted information. If the judge did not stop MOM he obviously could get away with what he was trying to do, which was to extract info from Mr. Gilbreath before discovery starts which will probably be after the SYG hearing. Mr. O'Mara did not win anything. As the judge said this is all standard. Mr. GZ is no different than any other defendant in his court. jmo

PaintingAnemone
04-22-2012, 09:02 PM
Saw a couple people have asked for this, and I recalled seeing it on HP:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/20/george-zimmerman-bail-hearing_n_1440175.html

We can link to them, right?

In any case, I'm not exactly sure what seeing shadows proves. One could have been chasing the other, or it could have been a pair of people (related or unrelated to the incident, I can't say) running together. To me, there isn't even enough meat on that bone worth speculating about yet.

CathyinTexas
04-22-2012, 09:02 PM
As many have stated about George Zimmerman's injuries: "I don't believe there are any till I see pictures", I don't believe the story about George Zimmerman throwing a girl till I see pictures of her alledged injuries. Please, an un-named person recounting the story? Why would I <modsnip>believe that? An alledged illegal act, at an alledged illegal party, reported some lenght of time after it was alleged to have happened? Heck, let's just go ahead and convict George Zimmerman on that basis alone.

Didn't he also say that he was fired because he was a loose cannon or something like that?

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 09:03 PM
I am beyond shocked at how many get away with brandishing or using guns! I personally don't own a gun, but have always supported law abiding citizens owning guns for hunting and protection in their home. I think, though that in instances like this, the gun wielders should be prosecuted. The police should have been called if they really believed the house was being burglarized.

We don't have brandishing laws in Georgia. The only way they would have been guilty of a crime is if they actually pointed the gun at the individuals, which would pretty much be aggravated assault.

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 09:03 PM
I'm thinking MOM wanted information now instead of waiting for discovery to get some answers and was hoping Mr. Gilbreath would provide them. I think Mr. Gilbreath was trying to answer the questions without giving up too much information. jmo

What would be the point of withholding information? Why wouldn't the probable cause affidavit mention that GZ gave different versions of his story? Seems if they wanted the $1M bail they requested, they would have included that claim.

CathyinTexas
04-22-2012, 09:04 PM
What kind of massive, visible scarring occurs from contusions?

It was reported in the media that he had two lacerations, which would bleed and scar, imo.

Dr.Fessel
04-22-2012, 09:05 PM
"I paid very close attention to the metal clicking and knocking noises" I also note that the background sound of the outdoor elements gets more quiet after the knocking sounds. Enough even to hear single water drops land in a puddle. And prior to the tapping you hear him say "sh** no!". And prior to that is the metal clicking/slide sound. The same kind of sound you may get from trying and releasing the handle of a door from a screen porch that is locked. Hence the swearing.

Can you link which site you are using. When it gets quiet here I am going to listen to some of them I have. TY

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 09:05 PM
It was reported in the media that he had two lacerations, which would bleed and scar, imo.
A paper cut is a laceration. That term doesn't describe the gravity (or levity) of the injuries.

PaintingAnemone
04-22-2012, 09:08 PM
Saw a couple people have asked for this, and I recalled seeing it on HP:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/20/george-zimmerman-bail-hearing_n_1440175.html

We can link to them, right?

In any case, I'm not exactly sure what seeing shadows proves. One could have been chasing the other, or it could have been a pair of people (related or unrelated to the incident, I can't say) running together. To me, there isn't even enough meat on that bone worth speculating about yet.

Sorry, I should have been more specific in my first post; in answer to where the "shadows" info came from, and I remember seeing it on HP.


Prosecutors have also located a witness near the site of the shooting who described seeing the shadows of two men pass by her home, one chasing the other, immediately before Martin was killed. The pursuit, in the direction of Martin's home, indicates that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation, Gilbreath said, under questioning from Rionda.

I can't find it in the CNN transcript, so perhaps they said it during one of their #$(&$ commercial breaks! :banghead:

CathyinTexas
04-22-2012, 09:09 PM
When a person has a wound that has been bleeding that then begins to clot so that it is no longer bleeding, would the clot not be wiped away when the wound is cleaned by EMTs to take a look at the wound to see how bad it is? And once the clot is gone, wouldn't the wound begin bleeding again? So it there was a wound on Zimmerman's head that caused bleeding why was there not a bandage placed on his head by EMT to prevent the wound from bleeding again after being cleaned up and the clot removed in the cleaning?

Maybe the lacerations we have heard about really were scratches that didn't concern the EMTs or the police. If so, then they weren't life threatening injuries, imo.

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 09:10 PM
Maybe the lacerations we have heard about really were scratches that didn't concern the EMTs or the police. If so, then they weren't life threatening injuries, imo.
Injuries don't have to be life-threatening to invoke SYG.

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 09:10 PM
They still have the SYG hearing to go through yet. Mr. De la Rionda had a right to be touchy. MOM tried to turn it into a trial hearing because he wanted information. If the judge did not stop MOM he obviously could get away with what he was trying to do, which was to extract info from Mr. Gilbreath before discovery starts which will probably be after the SYG hearing. Mr. O'Mara did not win anything. As the judge said this is all standard. Mr. GZ is no different than any other defendant in his court. jmo

I believe the reason MOM went through the probable cause affidavit with the investigator, and poked many holes in it (IMO) was to show the judge how weak the states case is (IMO) and justify a lower bail amount.

CathyinTexas
04-22-2012, 09:10 PM
I've seen no reliable information to date, to indicate that GZ has claimed this; only that he was attacked and felt he had to shoot in self-defense, believing his life to be in danger. JMO

Do you not see GZ's Dad and brother as reliable. I hope the jury will agree with you.

LambChop
04-22-2012, 09:10 PM
The SA said the witness saw shadows running from NEAR to TM's home to where the shooting took place. And so I asked WHY TM ran away from his home, meaning NEAR HIS HOME, and went the opposite direction.

If he was already near home then why go the other way?

From the statement Gilbreath gave it appears LE's belief is that GZ may have standing between TM and the condo where TM was staying. Rather than run towards GZ TM chose to run back in the other direction he just came from. This would explain the timeline and how his body was found so far from the cut through. jmo

LambChop
04-22-2012, 09:12 PM
I believe the reason MOM went through the probable cause affidavit with the investigator, and poked many holes in it (IMO) was to show the judge how weak the states case is (IMO) and justify a lower bail amount.

And to get as much info as he could for the SYG hearing because IMO the state will not be giving them anything before. jmo

Dr.Fessel
04-22-2012, 09:15 PM
MOM thought GZ bond should have been 15k, the state thought it should be a million. It turned out to be 10x what the defense wanted and 7x less then what the State wanted.

Ambrosia
04-22-2012, 09:16 PM
katydid23


"So he cocked his gun and went looking for TM in his home, but the door was locked?"
__________________
katydid23 "So he cocked his gun and went looking for TM in his home, but the door was locked?"
I'm with Just K @ post #242. "Also, I paid very close attention to the metal clicking and knocking noises and the time between them. It is my belief that at the time of these noises or very soon thereafter that someone else is in the company of GZ or at least close enough that the voice whispering is picked up by GZ's cellphone.
It is my opinion that GZ, had help to corner and possible detain or assist in the surveillance of TM." I heard the background voices. My guess is one of them was Martin and Zimmerman had him in his sight by the end of the 911 call.

CriticalThinking
04-22-2012, 09:17 PM
I posted this before. Where did Trayvon go when George lost sight of him? Where did he hide? I think he made it home and came back out to confront George. I also think he could have been lying in wait to jump George.

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 09:17 PM
And to get as much info as he could for the SYG hearing because IMO the state will not be giving them anything before. jmo

Will there be discovery before the SYG hearing? I have to think that GZ would be entitled to any evidence that could be used to show he was standing his ground. Unless there is no evidence involved with the SYG hearing. I dont know but I would like to.

Just K
04-22-2012, 09:17 PM
Yep. On the 911, Zimmerman wouldn't commit to going back to his car or mailbox. He was about to, but changed his mind. That's why he told 911 to have LE just call him once they arrived.

GZ knew he was going "hunting," and was set to go wherever his continued search for Trayvon took him.

I also believe those are gun clicks also at the end of that 911 call -- precisely when he's implying that he won't be returning to his car (so LE should call his cellphone to find him).

Zimmerman's own words convey that he was not heading back to his car. I hope the audio technology can confirm that clicking sound in the background of his 911 call.

Also, one resident saw GZ doing something with his hands on TM's dead body. IMO, he was looking for evidence of theft, but found nothing. He seemed certain he'd caught a thief.

Something occurs to me re: the BBM above:
If, indeed the cellphone that GZ made those calls on (the non-emergency call to SPD and the one right after shooting Trayvon)
was an IPHONE then his every step can be tracked. Those phones can pinpoint a person down to distance in feet. (Fingers crossed that thing to his ear was an IPhone.)

Just to add: Maybe Trayvon had a phone with these same attributes.

If they both did then we would have a very clear picture of the path that brought these two face to face.

csziggy
04-22-2012, 09:19 PM
For less than two minutes? I'm not saying it's impossible, but maybe improbable.

You can put a cell call on hold:

Hold call
How to put a call on hold and return to it
To put a call on hold and return to it, follow these steps:
To hold
While on a call, press the Menu key.
Touch Hold.
To return
While on hold, press the Menu key.
Touch Unhold.
http://support.t-mobile.com/docs/DOC-3963#Hold_call

Maybe that is what was happening?

Here is a concise listing of that call log, in order:

Trayvon’s call log.
From http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/call+log.pdf

02/26/2012
11:13 Hollywood text
11:15 North Dade text
11:18 North Dade text
01:30 Miami text
02:20 Incoming 3
02:38 Incoming 103
02:45 Incoming 2
03:02 Incoming 2
03:04 Incoming 3
04:08 North Dade text
04:28 North Dade Incoming 41
05:09 North Dade Incoming 81
06:30 North Dade Incoming 13
06:41 Incoming 4
06:45 North Dade Incoming 5
06:46 North Dade Incoming 2
06:49 Incoming 4
06:53 North Dade Incoming 1
06:54 North Dade Incoming 1
06:54 Incoming 18
07:04 Incoming 1
07:12 Incoming 4

03/02/2012
12:45 Emergency 1
12:45 Incoming 1
12:47 Incoming 1


Sorry about the formatting, but it does help to have it pared down. Not all the calls have a origin/destination entered (all places were FL, I just left that off for brevity). If we accept what has been previously reported, that the times are Eastern, the girlfriend's calls are among those with no origin.

This is Trayvon's call log - on page 3 near the bottom it says "Welcome, tracy". I think we're seeing more than one search - first the calls the evening of 2/26 after 7 PM. Then the "Most recent activity" which ends with a choice of pages 1-5 with 1 being the active page. In fact, the text message listing may be part of a separate search since the header above it lists 135 text messages.

Then there is the Download Calls/Print Calls underneath which is the PST time notation that is confusing, followed by Your Usage History with a time frame that ends on 2/24 - that is not part of any of the calls in the logs since it does not include 2/26. I wonder if the previous search ended with the page listing and this snippet is part of an effort to see what was included in the Usage History?

I believe pages 6 and 7 are another search - page 7 is headed with All Recent History and by all rights, page 6 should follow it. If the order of those two pages are flipped, all the calls after 5 on 2/26 are listed in reverse order.

I agree with you that the PST notation on that one page is confusing, but if you look at this group of pages as being a number of different searches, that could possibly apply to only one of the searches.

IMO, JMO, etc.

LambChop
04-22-2012, 09:19 PM
What would be the point of withholding information? Why wouldn't the probable cause affidavit mention that GZ gave different versions of his story? Seems if they wanted the $1M bail they requested, they would have included that claim.

The versions came from his family, did they not??? We've already gotten information we did not know about from the investigator. There was a witness who saw two people running past her condo. If this lady's condo is closer to where TM lived and down by the break in the homes there is a problem because it does not match GZ's story. I think MOM would want to know that. jmo

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 09:20 PM
I posted this before. Where did Trayvon go when George lost sight of him? Where did he hide? I think he made it home and came back out to confront George. I also think he could have been lying in wait to jump George.

I think thats a possibility also. There was just too much time for anything else.

LambChop
04-22-2012, 09:21 PM
I posted this before. Where did Trayvon go when George lost sight of him? Where did he hide? I think he made it home and came back out to confront George. I also think he could have been lying in wait to jump George.

That is not consistent with the phone call information from TM's gf.

csziggy
04-22-2012, 09:21 PM
If he were going to initiate a call longer than say, 2 minutes, it would make more sense to hang up with one person and call them back. If the calls were not merged, who would sit on the phone in dead silence for longer than that?

Somebody that would talk to their boyfriend for an hour and forty three minutes?:doorhide:

TonyGatto
04-22-2012, 09:22 PM
Injuries don't have to be life-threatening to invoke SYG.

Absolutely true. However, if you claim to police that your head was being banged into the concrete and you were beaten nearly unconcsious, but they find that to be not true, those fabrications hurt your invoking of SYG.

LambChop
04-22-2012, 09:23 PM
Will there be discovery before the SYG hearing? I have to think that GZ would be entitled to any evidence that could be used to show he was standing his ground. Unless there is no evidence involved with the SYG hearing. I dont know but I would like to.

For the SYG hearing the burden of proof is on the defendant...not the state. jmo

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 09:23 PM
Something occurs to me re: the BBM above:
If, indeed the cellphone that GZ made those calls on (the non-emergency call to SPD and the one right after shooting Trayvon)
was an IPHONE then his every step can be tracked. Those phones can pinpoint a person down to distance in feet. (Fingers crossed that thing to his ear was an IPhone.)

Just to add: Maybe Trayvon had a phone with these same attributes.

If they both did then we would have a very clear picture of the path that brought these two face to face.

Could be true of TM's phone also. To me the one in the photo of GZ looked like a Blackberry to me, but I could very well be wrong.

daisy7
04-22-2012, 09:25 PM
That's been reported from the start. 13 year old was walking his dog, saw one man on the ground screaming for help, the dog run away and 13 year old run after the dog. Then he and his sister (I believe) called 911.

Sorry, but I don't remember hearing about this. I surely don't remember listening to a 911 call from them and I listened to all that were released. Can anyone give a link?

I can't be losing my memory so bad when I'm only 40, right? :)

csziggy
04-22-2012, 09:26 PM
Prayers for a successful surgery and speedy recovery! :seeya:
Thanks!

HiHater
04-22-2012, 09:28 PM
I posted this before. Where did Trayvon go when George lost sight of him? Where did he hide? I think he made it home and came back out to confront George. I also think he could have been lying in wait to jump George.

If Trayvon made it all the way home, GZ should have been long gone at that point.

He made it home and didn't come back out with any sort of knife/weapon, didn't put the tea and skittles down?

Ambrosia
04-22-2012, 09:28 PM
Speculation Zimmerman route to cut off Martin. http://bcclist.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-path.jpg

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 09:29 PM
Absolutely true. However, if you claim to police that your head was being banged into the concrete and you were beaten nearly unconcsious, but they find that to be not true, those fabrications hurt your invoking of SYG.

How would he go about proving that he was nearly unconscious?

Just K
04-22-2012, 09:29 PM
I'm gettin' dizzy from all this 'round and 'round. :argue:

I'm gonna go do something more fun like, maybe... get a root canal. :D

:takeoff:

I can't tell you how much i have missed your posts... and especially CPapa and Dr Fessel... just to name a few.

Reader
04-22-2012, 09:29 PM
From the statement Gilbreath gave it appears LE's belief is that GZ may have standing between TM and the condo where TM was staying. Rather than run towards GZ TM chose to run back in the other direction he just came from. This would explain the timeline and how his body was found so far from the cut through. jmo

Now I'm confused! that's what I was thinking also but from PaintingAnemone's post above from HP it says:


Prosecutors have also located a witness near the site of the shooting who described seeing the shadows of two men pass by her home, one chasing the other, immediately before Martin was killed. The pursuit, in the direction of Martin's home, indicates that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation, Gilbreath said, under questioning from Rionda.

Calling Concerned Papa, lol....

csziggy
04-22-2012, 09:30 PM
Oh my goodness you'll be around. I had one done in 2007 and it's really not that restrictive. You just have to be careful of blood clots so getting up and moving around is good. You'll be here, trust me. lol

Thanks for that information about the time.

LambChop,
I know I will be doing stuff, it's just whether or not I will have the time and energy to spend much time here. Mom in law has some genealogy projects for me to work on during recovery, and I'll be way behind on my business, and behind on my needlework.

I stay busy now even with the excuse of not being able to walk around much. Once my knees are healed, I will be going more places and doing more things - all that stuff that having very bad knees has prevented me from doing.

I do plan on being around here as much as I can, though. I like this crowd! :seeya:

LambChop
04-22-2012, 09:31 PM
I think thats a possibility also. There was just too much time for anything else.

Too much time for GZ to be walking back to his car, too, as Papa pointed out. It appears SA is looking at that time frame, too, and that possibly GZ walked or ran down Retreat View Circle and cut through the break in the houses cutting TM off. That would account for the time differences. If you are to question what TM was doing all that time you have to question what GZ was doing also. jmo

TonyGatto
04-22-2012, 09:31 PM
How would he go about proving that he was nearly unconscious?

He can't because he wasn't.

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 09:32 PM
For the SYG hearing the burden of proof is on the defendant...not the state. jmo

I understand that the burden is on the defendant, but if the state has evidence to show that he was standing his ground, would he not be entitled to it?

curl_in_progress
04-22-2012, 09:32 PM
I hope you WSleuthers don't think I'm crazy when I say I think there are other voice/voices that are in the background on the Zimmerman 911 tape. I do hear them. During the time the dispatcher is asking Z if he wants them to [meet him at the mailboxes.] - (sounds like someone calling another a 'stupid punk'.) I do hear it when the dispatcher is saying 'OK, no problem. I’ll let them know to call you when [they’re in the area."] Within [ ] I hear 'he's watching'. Either Zimmerman at this time was not alone and it was someone else besides Martin, or it was Martin talking and was within Zimmerman's earshot and sight. In other words he couldn't have been on his way back and ambushed. That Zimmerman had stopped following of Martin and was walking back to his truck and confronted by Martin has to be hogwash IMO. I'm no Colombo but I do have headphones. <p>Do any of you hear the voices? :crosseyed:<p>

Still catching up, but wanted to comment on this, so I apologize if it has been addressed. I listened carefully several times and was able to hear "he's watching" once in about 3 attempts to catch it. This thought of someone else being with GZ now makes me think about the tapping noises heard earlier in the call. Could GZ have been texting Frank Taafe while speaking with dispatch to come meet him because an "a$$hole" was loose in the neighborhood? The call went on for several minutes, so maybe FT made it out just towards the end of the call to dispatch.

Now that I'm thinking about it, those tapping noises sound like when I'm on the phone with someone and they are are typing/texting back to messages they received while on the phone with me. Maybe when they met up FT and GZ split up to follow and/or look for Trayvon, but GZ encountered Trayvon first and the argument ensues while FT is at a distance (perhaps guarding the back gate?) so it takes him several seconds to make it back to GZ, but just as he does, GZ shoots Trayvon. Could explain why someone reported seeing someone with a flashlight walking up immediately after the shooting? I think it was on the older lady's call who became very emotional. Didn't someone here suggest that maybe FT was the one to take the picture of GZ? Maybe FT inflicted those injuries on GZ really quick after the shooting because GZ knew he needed to look hurt? FT just seems TOO invested in this case and this could be why. He's involved in some way.

PURE SPECULATION and MOO. Not even sure if I believe this, but I think every possibility should be explored.

Thoughts? (Hope that made sense.)

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 09:32 PM
For the SYG hearing the burden of proof is on the defendant...not the state. jmo
But it's also only a preponderance of evidence, not beyond a reasonable doubt.

LambChop
04-22-2012, 09:33 PM
LambChop,
I know I will be doing stuff, it's just whether or not I will have the time and energy to spend much time here. Mom in law has some genealogy projects for me to work on during recovery, and I'll be way behind on my business, and behind on my needlework.

I stay busy now even with the excuse of not being able to walk around much. Once my knees are healed, I will be going more places and doing more things - all that stuff that having very bad knees has prevented me from doing.

I do plan on being around here as much as I can, though. I like this crowd! :seeya:

You will be surprised how much better you will feel. Good luck to you.

Nova
04-22-2012, 09:33 PM
Quoting myself and further expanding on this, the absolute callousness of this, not even caring that he had just killed a kid, even if we play pretend for 1/2 a second and pretend that GZ killed this kid in self-defense (not even for 1/2 a second believable) a NORMAL person no matter what would be so horrified that they had taken a life that they would not immediately believe they had ended this person life, they would doing anything and everything to try and help the kid, they would not be thinking "I might make the bullet go further" they would be in a type of shock and doing everything humanly possible to save that kids life. But George Zimmerman did not give one CHIT that he had just killed a teenager, no NORMAL person's first thought would be "I had better get pictures of these TINY superficial scratches on my head to document that I was "justified" in murdering this teenager." That right there tells me that George Zimmerman has more than a DEPRAVED mind, that right there tells me that George Zimmerman is EVIL beyond belief!

1. In the first place, that's not what "depraved mind" means in the Florida statutes, so using it that way tends to cause confusion. ("Depraved mind" in the 2nd-degree murder instructions refers to the state of mind of the killer in the instant of the killing and refers to a reckless disregard for the safety of his victim. It isn't a description of the killer's ongoing psychological state, mental illness or character. It has no logical comparison to "evil".)

2. You can't possibly know how everyone would react in such a crisis. I said I think I'd be afraid I'd hurt the injured party by administering basic first-aid; I think I'd call 911 and follow instructions. Somebody else might well hold the victim's hand and attempt to comfort him. Etc. and so forth, but not even I can know for sure how *I* would react, much less how everyone else would.

Just K
04-22-2012, 09:38 PM
Zimmerman at the very least consented to having that pic taken, within seconds of murdering a teenager. In my opinion whoever took that picture is just as DEPRAVED and EVIL as George Zimmerman, the two of them had a dying or dead child at their feet and instead of trying to help that teenager they were more concerned with taking pictures of a TEENY, TINY scratch on Zimmerman's head. If you ask me that points to PREMEDITATED murder, based on this "new" evidence of this picture coming out and supposedly having been taken within seconds of Zimmerman having murdered Trayvon, I believe Zimmerman has been undercharged with 2nd degree murder.

Just to reiterate:
Who, in their right mind (other than responding LE) would approach a man with a gun who had just taken the life of another? Who would even think about going out to help the shooter unless you knew him and knew why he had just shot someone to death?

grandmaj
04-22-2012, 09:40 PM
Prosecutors have also located a witness near the site of the shooting who described seeing the shadows of two men pass by her home, one chasing the other, immediately before Martin was killed. The pursuit, in the direction of Martin's home, indicates that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation, Gilbreath said, under questioning from Rionda.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/20/george-zimmerman-bail-hearing_n_1440175.html

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 09:42 PM
Too much time for GZ to be walking back to his car, too, as Papa pointed out. It appears SA is looking at that time frame, too, and that possibly GZ walked or ran down Retreat View Circle and cut through the break in the houses cutting TM off. That would account for the time differences. If you are to question what TM was doing all that time you have to question what GZ was doing also. jmo

I agree. A lot remains to be revealed.

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 09:42 PM
Just to reiterate:
Who, in their right mind (other than responding LE) would approach a man with a gun who had just taken the life of another? Who would even think about going out to help the shooter unless you knew him and knew why he had just shot someone to death?
Not everyone knew he had a gun. None of the witnesses reported a visible gun (at least publicly). There was some confusion by witnesses as to whether he was actually the shooter or not (Cutcher & Co. didn't seem to think so, initially, and they were supposedly the first ones out there).

People do stupid things all the time. Right now, we have the benefit of hindsight. Some curious resident who didn't realize the gravity of the situation might have started snapping pictures.

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 09:45 PM
He can't because he wasn't.

I mean how would anyone prove they were nearly unconscious?

sonicfanaticsmommy
04-22-2012, 09:45 PM
In reference to the validity of the bloody head pic:

This may be a dumb question and/or already covered, if so I apologize... But who wiped the blood off GZ's head? In the video the blood is gone unlike in the pic before the video, and he couldn't wipe it off himself bc he was cuffed. I doubt the police wiped it off, wouldn't they want to take their own photographs of it for evidence purposes? They wouldn't have tried to treat the bleeding themselves, thus wiping it off in the process, bc they weren't life threatening or gushing everywhere.

Idk, just a thought!

mikeysmommom
04-22-2012, 09:45 PM
Not everyone knew he had a gun. None of the witnesses reported a visible gun (at least publicly). There was some confusion by witnesses as to whether he was actually the shooter or not (Cutcher & Co. didn't seem to think so, initially, and they were supposedly the first ones out there).

People do stupid things all the time. Right now, we have the benefit of hindsight. Some curious resident who didn't realize the gravity of the situation might have started snapping pictures.

IIRC Cuther's roomate did say she was the first one out there so she might have taken the pic JMO ABC might pay better then the enquirer for pics.


ETAhttp://www.nationalenquirer.com/true-crime/trayvon-shooter-zimmerman-grim-new-details

Cutcher’s roommate, Selma Mora Lamilla, 36, told The ENQUIRER she was the first to reach the crime scene near her home.

annalia
04-22-2012, 09:46 PM
Prosecutors have also located a witness near the site of the shooting who described seeing the shadows of two men pass by her home, one chasing the other, immediately before Martin was killed. The pursuit, in the direction of Martin's home, indicates that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation, Gilbreath said, under questioning from Rionda.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/20/george-zimmerman-bail-hearing_n_1440175.html

BBM

Thanks

So they were running in the direction of the home, not from the home and back the other way.

JMHO

TonyGatto
04-22-2012, 09:46 PM
Just to reiterate:
Who, in their right mind (other than responding LE) would approach a man with a gun who had just taken the life of another? Who would even think about going out to help the shooter unless you knew him and knew why he had just shot someone to death?

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Adrienne37
04-22-2012, 09:47 PM
1. In the first place, that's not what "depraved mind" means in the Florida statutes, so using it that way tends to cause confusion. ("Depraved mind" in the 2nd-degree murder instructions refers to the state of mind of the killer in the instant of the killing and refers to a reckless disregard for the safety of his victim. It isn't a description of the killer's ongoing psychological state, mental illness or character. It has no logical comparison to "evil".)

2. You can't possibly know how everyone would react in such a crisis. I said I think I'd be afraid I'd hurt the injured party by administering basic first-aid; I think I'd call 911 and follow instructions. Somebody else might well hold the victim's hand and attempt to comfort him. Etc. and so forth, but not even I can know for sure how *I* would react, much less how everyone else would.

I think Mercuroid is well aware of what "depraved" means just as I was the other day when you responded to my post about its meaning. No one is saying that Zimmerman has any ongoing mental illness. Additionally, when you look at the thesaurus, you will plainly see that evil is listed as a synonym of the word depraved. I think we are all very capable of looking up the definition of the words that we are using in our posts and do not need to be corrected but that's just my opinion.

depraved [dɪˈpreɪvd]
adj
morally bad or debased; corrupt; perverted
depravedness [dɪˈpreɪvɪdnɪs] n
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
Adj. 1. depraved - deviating from what is considered moral or right or proper or good; "depraved criminals"; "a perverted sense of loyalty"; "the reprobate conduct of a gambling aristocrat"
reprobate, perverse, perverted
corrupt - lacking in integrity; "humanity they knew to be corrupt...from the day of Adam's creation"; "a corrupt and incompetent city government"
Based on WordNet 3.0, Farlex clipart collection. © 2003-2011 Princeton University, Farlex Inc.
depraved
adjective corrupt, abandoned, perverted, evil, vicious, degraded, vile, degenerate, immoral, wicked, shameless, sinful, lewd, debased, profligate, debauched, lascivious, dissolute, licentious, pervy (slang) It has been condemned as the most depraved film of its kind.
moral, pure, decent, good, principled, innocent, proper, ethical, upright, honourable, wholesome, virtuous, chaste
Collins Thesaurus of the English Language – Complete and Unabridged 2nd Edition. 2002 © HarperCollins Publishers 1995, 2002

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/depraved

Definition of DEPRAVED

: marked by corruption or evil; especially : perverted

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/depraved

de·praved   [dih-preyvd] Show IPA
adjective
corrupt, wicked, or perverted.

Synonyms
evil, sinful, debased, reprobate, degenerate; dissolute, profligate; licentious, lewd. See immoral.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/depraved



~jmo~

mommakk51
04-22-2012, 09:47 PM
Well you could at the very LEAST hold the poor kids hand, tell him you are sorry for killing him, and pray for forgiveness! But noooo, not ole' Georgie, his most important thought was to get someone to take pictures of the tiny, superficial SCRATCHES on the top of his head while a child laid dying at his feet!


I am quite sure that GZ has done his share of praying and begging got forgiveness over this. Also, sometimes, people take it upon themselves to document when they see a crime scene.. that's called being a good citizen. I doubt GZ had much of anything on his mind other than shock, grief, and pain. JMO-IMO-IMHO-MOO 'n stuff.

Isabelle
04-22-2012, 09:47 PM
Somebody that would talk to their boyfriend for an hour and forty three minutes?:doorhide:

Kids like to listen to each other breathe!

mercuriod
04-22-2012, 09:47 PM
Injuries don't have to be life-threatening to invoke SYG.

Oh but when the defendant (GZ) is claiming that he was being beat within one hit from being in diapers and spoon fed for life, then they sure as heck had better be more than 2 TEENY, TINY scratches.

TonyGatto
04-22-2012, 09:48 PM
In reference to the validity of the bloody head pic:

This may be a dumb question and/or already covered, if so I apologize... But who wiped the blood off GZ's head? In the video the blood is gone unlike in the pic before the video, and he couldn't wipe it off himself bc he was cuffed. I doubt the police wiped it off, wouldn't they want to take their own photographs of it for evidence purposes? They wouldn't have tried to treat the bleeding themselves, thus wiping it off in the process, bc they weren't life threatening or gushing everywhere.

Idk, just a thought!

EMT's while he was in patrol car.

katydid23
04-22-2012, 09:48 PM
Prosecutors have also located a witness near the site of the shooting who described seeing the shadows of two men pass by her home, one chasing the other, immediately before Martin was killed. The pursuit, in the direction of Martin's home, indicates that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation, Gilbreath said, under questioning from Rionda.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/20/george-zimmerman-bail-hearing_n_1440175.html

So WHY does this testimony seem to say the opposite?

DE LA RIONDA: But you still have, is it not true, a witness who describes someone chasing another person from the area where they ended up... in other words, from where, near where Mr. Martin lived to the area where the murder happened?

GILBREATH: Yes.

BBM

Not part of the CNN transcript. It can be viewed here:
http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

LambChop
04-22-2012, 09:49 PM
I understand that the burden is on the defendant, but if the state has evidence to show that he was standing his ground, would he not be entitled to it?

But he would already have that evidence would he not???? It's not up to the state the make his SYG case for him. He has to convince a judge. The State has to convince the judge he's not being truthful or that the law just does not apply to him. jmo

Dr.Fessel
04-22-2012, 09:50 PM
Just to reiterate:
Who, in their right mind (other than responding LE) would approach a man with a gun who had just taken the life of another? Who would even think about going out to help the shooter unless you knew him and knew why he had just shot someone to death?

No kidding. It is beyond belief anyone would. People run from shootings, they don't run to them. That person knew what was going on.

Adrienne37
04-22-2012, 09:50 PM
Not everyone knew he had a gun. None of the witnesses reported a visible gun (at least publicly). There was some confusion by witnesses as to whether he was actually the shooter or not (Cutcher & Co. didn't seem to think so, initially, and they were supposedly the first ones out there).

People do stupid things all the time. Right now, we have the benefit of hindsight. Some curious resident who didn't realize the gravity of the situation might have started snapping pictures.

No, but everybody heard the gunshot and saw a dead kid lying on the ground so I think it's safe to assume that some must have thought he had a gun.


~jmo~

Just K
04-22-2012, 09:50 PM
Thank the Lord or else there might have been other innocent victims of Zimmerman that night.



~jmo~

I keep thinking the kid who was chasing after his dog got a lucky break. What if, in his heightened state of paranoia, GZ had shot that kid by mistake?

katydid23
04-22-2012, 09:51 PM
BBM

Thanks

So they were running in the direction of the home, not from the home and back the other way.

JMHO

Not according to the investigators testimony last week:




DE LA RIONDA: But you still have, is it not true, a witness who describes someone chasing another person from the area where they ended up... in other words, from where, near where Mr. Martin lived to the area where the murder happened?

GILBREATH: Yes.

BBM

Not part of the CNN transcript. It can be viewed here:
http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

mercuriod
04-22-2012, 09:51 PM
Will there be discovery before the SYG hearing? I have to think that GZ would be entitled to any evidence that could be used to show he was standing his ground. Unless there is no evidence involved with the SYG hearing. I dont know but I would like to.

The defendant is the one that has to provide the evidence at a SYG hearing not the prosecution. If GZ is going to claim SGY immunity he has to prove it, then the prosecution will present whatever they need to in order to disprove what GZ is claiming. In a SYG hearing the burden of proof is squarely on the defendants shoulders.

grandmaj
04-22-2012, 09:51 PM
I don't know Katy.... I guess someone is going to have to transcribe the tape... when and if it comes out in full.

I think we need to find the Gilbreath vid if there is one.

TonyGatto
04-22-2012, 09:52 PM
No kidding. It is beyond belief anyone would. People run from shootings, they don't run to them. That person knew what was going on.

Plus it was preceded by shouting, leading a number of people to call 911. And there was a young man lying unconcsious. I don't buy the theory that the photog didn't realize the gravity of the situation.

Adrienne37
04-22-2012, 09:55 PM
I am quite sure that GZ has done his share of praying and begging got forgiveness over this. Also, sometimes, people take it upon themselves to document when they see a crime scene.. that's called being a good citizen. I doubt GZ had much of anything on his mind other than shock, grief, and pain. JMO-IMO-IMHO-MOO 'n stuff.

He didn't look in shock just a mere 30 minutes later when he arrived at the police station. He didn't appear to show any grief and I seriously doubt he was in pain from having 2 such tiny marks on his head. Somehow I think Zimmerman was elated and proud, since he knew that this particular @$$hole/fu**** punk wasn't going to get away. He was feeling on top of the world. Of course, this is all just my opinion.


~jmo~

TonyGatto
04-22-2012, 09:56 PM
Not according to the investigators testimony last week:




DE LA RIONDA: But you still have, is it not true, a witness who describes someone chasing another person from the area where they ended up... in other words, from where, near where Mr. Martin lived to the area where the murder happened?

GILBREATH: Yes.

BBM

Not part of the CNN transcript. It can be viewed here:
http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

An area "near where Mr. Martin lived" could mean out on the street. It all depends. Not enough here to know -- but we will find out for sure -- at some point -- which ways the shadows were running.

mercuriod
04-22-2012, 09:58 PM
Not everyone knew he had a gun. None of the witnesses reported a visible gun (at least publicly). There was some confusion by witnesses as to whether he was actually the shooter or not (Cutcher & Co. didn't seem to think so, initially, and they were supposedly the first ones out there).

People do stupid things all the time. Right now, we have the benefit of hindsight. Some curious resident who didn't realize the gravity of the situation might have started snapping pictures.

And have GZ pose for them?

daisy7
04-22-2012, 09:58 PM
The SA said the witness saw shadows running from NEAR to TM's home to where the shooting took place. And so I asked WHY TM ran away from his home, meaning NEAR HIS HOME, and went the opposite direction.

If he was already near home then why go the other way?

My impression from the bond hearing is that the 2 "shadows" were running from where GZ left his truck towards TM's house?

MicciStella
04-22-2012, 09:58 PM
I am just listening to Websleuths Radio.....

I do not like what this Richard Hornsby is saying...... Not at all...... Makes me really upset......

JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON.......

I just hope he will get Justice.....

Blessings

Micci

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 09:59 PM
But he would already have that evidence would he not???? It's not up to the state the make his SYG case for him. He has to convince a judge. The State has to convince the judge he's not being truthful or that the law just does not apply to him. jmo

No he would not necessarily have the evidence. I would expect he will want to introduce the statement from " John" as evidence that he was being assaulted but if there is no discovery before the SYG hearing how would he obtain it?

LambChop
04-22-2012, 09:59 PM
I don't know Katy.... I guess someone is going to have to transcribe the tape... when and if it comes out in full.

I think we need to find the Gilbreath vid if there is one.

I think the problem understanding how they were running has to do with the location of the condo. We don't know which condo this lady lives in and Gilbreath does not say in his testimony, nor did he give this person's name. jmo

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 10:03 PM
The defendant is the one that has to provide the evidence at a SYG hearing not the prosecution. If GZ is going to claim SGY immunity he has to prove it, then the prosecution will present whatever they need to in order to disprove what GZ is claiming. In a SYG hearing the burden of proof is squarely on the defendants shoulders.

So your saying if the prosecution has a video tape of the incident (just an example) that could clear a defendant they would have no obligation to turn it over to the defense for the SYG hearing?

Concerned Papa
04-22-2012, 10:04 PM
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/nation/s_792307.html

During further questioning by O'Mara, Gilbreath admitted that the state has no evidence who started the fight. There is also no evidence that Zimmerman didn't walk back to his car after chasing Martin on foot, as the defendant has claimed

The state is locked into that now. To tell you the truth, I think they are using the girlfriend's statement as to what she heard. That is not an eye witness either. She heard something, but she saw nothing. The state may not make it through the SYG hearing.

Locked in you say? You betcha! They're locked right into this case with a defense whose core says George Zimmerman got out of his vehicle at [2:08] and followed Trayvon Martin until the dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that" at [2:26].

The State is also locked into George's claim of additionally walking, what would have required no more than 80 feet to the front of the next building, for an address or street sign

The State is further locked into, the defense's stated position of what's now record in this case, that George Zimmerman then turned around and was walking back to his car when he was brutally attacked by an unarmed 17 year old kid.

Is the State locked into that position taken by the defense in this bond hearing? You bet they are, as evidenced by the following exchange:


O'MARA: Since. Today. Do you have any evidence that conflicts with his suggestion that he had turned around and went back to his car?

GILBREATH: Other than his statement, no.

Is that's the State's ONLY evidence? All these geniuses in the media that see the simplicity of this Investigator's truthful reply as a negative, need to get out a calculator for a little arithmetic.

If you leave your car and walk somewhere for EIGHTEEN SECONDS, how long will it take you to walk BACK to your car?

Plus

How long does it take to walk EIGHTY additional feet for an address?

:waiting:

:waiting:

:waiting:

Add all that together and understand that is the timeline where George Zimmerman initially, and now his brilliant attorney, have told the world that this "attack" occurred leading to his justification in killing an unarmed 17 year old kid. Less than ONE MINUTE after George got out of his vehicle and started following Trayvon, his story calls for being "attacked". How long do you think it will take a jury to glance at a transcript of the 911 call and realize that George was still TALKING TO THE DISPATCHER two minutes after he got out of his vehicle?

How long do you think it will take a jury to recognize that Trayvon's body was found TWO HUNDRED AND THIRTY THREE FEET away from George's vehicle?

Is that all the State's got? Probably not, but what else do they need to prove George Zimmerman is a LIAR?

Adrienne37
04-22-2012, 10:05 PM
Ben Crump: 'The lying has already begun'
Trayvon Martin's family attorney takes aim at George Zimmerman's defense

SANFORD, Fla. -
An attorney for Trayvon Martin's family believes their son's shooter is lying about injuries he sustained the night he killed the unarmed 17-year-old.

"If this is any indication of what's to come, then the lying has already begun," attorney Ben Crump told reporters on Sunday, while promoting a documentary at the Florida Film Festival on another case.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Ben-Crump-The-lying-has-already-begun/-/1637132/11562322/-/n978b8/-/

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 10:06 PM
Oh but when the defendant (GZ) is claiming that he was being beat within one hit from being in diapers and spoon fed for life, then they sure as heck had better be more than 2 TEENY, TINY scratches.
Can you provide a link to where George Zimmerman made these claims? TIA.

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 10:06 PM
I am just listening to Websleuths Radio.....

I do not like what this Richard Hornsby is saying...... Not at all...... Makes me really upset......

JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON.......

I just hope he will get Justice.....

Blessings

Micci

Catch us up, whats he saying?

LambChop
04-22-2012, 10:06 PM
No he would not necessarily have the evidence. I would expect he will want to introduce the statement from " John" as evidence that he was being assaulted but if there is no discovery before the SYG hearing how would he obtain it?

The burden is up to him. The state will not make that argument for him, IMO. If what he claims is true the evidence will prove his position. This is why MOM was trying to get as much information out of Gilbreath as he could. MOM does not want to put GZ on the stand if he is not going to do well and if SA can get more information out of GZ to support their case it may not be worth having the SYG hearing and just go for self-defense. With the SYG hearing GZ has to testify which means he could be cross-examined. At this point I don't think MOM would want the state to have that option. If GZ does have a temper this prosecuter will certainly bring it out of it's hiding place for sure. lol jmo

CathyinTexas
04-22-2012, 10:07 PM
Hm. Reserving comment on the phone records until they make a little more sense to me. JMO

Curious, though... *IF* the phone records fail to confirm that TM was on the phone with the GF at the time she says, what will be the ramifications for the State's case? JMO

I thought the investigator at the bond hearing settled that question.

csziggy
04-22-2012, 10:07 PM
The detective never said it was a "she", he said a witness, never gave gender. The detective said the witness saw shadows of two people involved in a chase.

And what's really telling is this:

DE LA RIONDA: But you still have, is it not true, a witness who describes someone chasing another person from the area where they ended up... in other words, from where, near where Mr. Martin lived to the area where the murder happened?

Zimmerman was chasing Trayvon AWAY from Trayvon's place of safety if this is true. If Trayvon had made it that close to his temporary home, I can't see him chasing Zimmerman! I bet this is the key to the second degree murder charge.

IMO, JMO, etc.

Adrienne37
04-22-2012, 10:08 PM
So your saying if the prosecution has a video tape of the incident (just an example) that could clear a defendant they would have on obligation to turn it over to the defense for the SYG hearing?

If the prosecution had any sort of video tape that could clear a "defendant," then I seriously doubt there would be a "defendant" because I doubt there would be a case.





~jmo~

mercuriod
04-22-2012, 10:08 PM
Not according to the investigators testimony last week:




DE LA RIONDA: But you still have, is it not true, a witness who describes someone chasing another person from the area where they ended up... in other words, from where, near where Mr. Martin lived to the area where the murder happened?

GILBREATH: Yes.

BBM

Not part of the CNN transcript. It can be viewed here:
http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

What makes you think from that statement that they were running away for TM's home? The chase could have started further away, but still "near" TM's home and been headed towards TM's home and that statement would still be absolutely accurate.

uvamerica
04-22-2012, 10:09 PM
Not everyone knew he had a gun. None of the witnesses reported a visible gun (at least publicly). There was some confusion by witnesses as to whether he was actually the shooter or not (Cutcher & Co. didn't seem to think so, initially, and they were supposedly the first ones out there).

People do stupid things all the time. Right now, we have the benefit of hindsight. Some curious resident who didn't realize the gravity of the situation might have started snapping pictures.

What do you mean by "didn't realize the gravity of the situation"
I find that hard to believe, there is a body on the ground not moving, another guy standing there with blood on his head, shot/shots were heard and on and on.....maybe a child wouldn't understand the "gravity of the situation", but an adult ?

Reader
04-22-2012, 10:09 PM
This link might have been posted before but I just wanted to highlight something about the evidence from the bond hearing, misinformation or another lie?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/20/justice/florida-zimmerman-details/index.html?hpt=ju_c2


She said her son also participated in a 2010 campaign to "get justice" for an African-American homeless man who was seen in a videotape taken by an onlooker being struck by a man who later turned out to be the son of a Sanford police lieutenant.

"He went to churches. He put fliers on cars" and organized a meeting seeking help for the man, his mother testified.

He was recognized by the city for his efforts, his mother said.

CNN has not been able to confirm Zimmerman's participation in the campaign.

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 10:10 PM
So your saying if the prosecution has a video tape of the incident (just an example) that could clear a defendant they would have no obligation to turn it over to the defense for the SYG hearing?
Yes, because that would mean the prosecution is committing a crime by prosecuting. If they have exculpatory evidence they withheld and proceeded with trying the case, they would be in violation of statutory law. And I could see some sanctions being brought against any members of the bar involved.

CathyinTexas
04-22-2012, 10:10 PM
His motive may have been "Im tired of this guy watching me so im going to teach him a lesson." IMO

I thought it was stated somewhere that the GF said that TM said "this guy is looking at me like he wants to do something to me" I think TM was more likely trying to get away from someone he felt as threatening, but wasn't able to because we know based on what the gf heard, GZ caught up to him. He might have ran again, and that is when the witnesses saw someone chasing another.

mercuriod
04-22-2012, 10:10 PM
No he would not necessarily have the evidence. I would expect he will want to introduce the statement from " John" as evidence that he was being assaulted but if there is no discovery before the SYG hearing how would he obtain it?

He would call "John" to the stand.

daisy7
04-22-2012, 10:11 PM
So WHY does this testimony seem to say the opposite?

DE LA RIONDA: But you still have, is it not true, a witness who describes someone chasing another person from the area where they ended up... in other words, from where, near where Mr. Martin lived to the area where the murder happened?

GILBREATH: Yes.

BBM

Not part of the CNN transcript. It can be viewed here:
http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

I certainly didn't interpret the testimony that TM was running FROM his house. I'm not sure how anyone would. :confused:

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 10:11 PM
What do you mean by "didn't realize the gravity of the situation"
I find that hard to believe, there is a body on the ground not moving, another guy standing there with blood on his head, shot/shots were heard and on and on.....maybe a child wouldn't understand the "gravity of the situation", but an adult ?
Maybe Zimmerman was attacked by a mysterious gunman, too. Even Cutcher, who was allegedly right there, didn't know Zimmerman was the shooter.

mercuriod
04-22-2012, 10:12 PM
So your saying if the prosecution has a video tape of the incident (just an example) that could clear a defendant they would have no obligation to turn it over to the defense for the SYG hearing?

If the prosecution had a video tape of the incident that would clear the defendant they would not have filed charges in the first place.

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 10:12 PM
The burden is up to him. The state will not make that argument for him, IMO. If what he claims is true the evidence will prove his position. This is why MOM was trying to get as much information out of Gilbreath as he could. MOM does not want to put GZ on the stand if he is not going to do well and if SA can get more information out of GZ to support their case it may not be worth having the SYG hearing and just go for self-defense. With the SYG hearing GZ has to testify which means he could be cross-examined. At this point I don't think MOM would want the state to have that option. If GZ does have a temper this prosecuter will certainly bring it out of it's hiding place for sure. lol jmo

Ok but that does not answer my question which is - Does GZ get access to the evidence that the SA has that could prove he was standing his ground? I understand that the state is going to argue against his position.

Reader
04-22-2012, 10:14 PM
I mean how would anyone prove they were nearly unconscious?

If he had really needed medical attention after the killing there would be records of his condition from the EMTs, ER and/or doctors that treated him. The absense of any medical reports proving any life threatening condition really makes everything GZ says in his defense very questionable. I haven't heard that GZ said he was 'nearly unconscious', only his brother and father.

IMO

LambChop
04-22-2012, 10:14 PM
So your saying if the prosecution has a video tape of the incident (just an example) that could clear a defendant they would have no obligation to turn it over to the defense for the SYG hearing?

If they had such a video they would not be charging him with 2nd degree murder. This was investigated by AC. Charges were brought because there is a belief that GZ pursued and confronted TM and that it does not fall under SYG. jmo

TonyGatto
04-22-2012, 10:14 PM
Can you provide a link to where George Zimmerman made these claims? TIA.

There is no link because GZ has not made any public statements. But you MUST believe one of two things. A-GZ made these claims, as stated in the above post -- or -- B-GZ's relatives are lying. The two cannot co-exist.

Adrienne37
04-22-2012, 10:14 PM
I thought the investigator at the bond hearing settled that question.

Additionally, I believe the probable cause affidavit clearly indicates that Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/interactive/2012/04/12/state-florida-vs-george-zimmerman-affidavit-probable-cause/


~jmo~

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 10:15 PM
Yes, because that would mean the prosecution is committing a crime by prosecuting. If they have exculpatory evidence they withheld and proceeded with trying the case, they would be in violation of statutory law. And I could see some sanctions being brought against any members of the bar involved.

Ok, so can MOM request a copy of "John's" statement through discovery to use at the SYG hearing?

Adrienne37
04-22-2012, 10:15 PM
This link might have been posted before but I just wanted to highlight something about the evidence from the bond hearing, misinformation or another lie?

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/20/justice/florida-zimmerman-details/index.html?hpt=ju_c2

Thank you so much Reader!!! Smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors.


~jmo~

LambChop
04-22-2012, 10:16 PM
Ok but that does not answer my question which is - Does GZ get access to the evidence that the SA has that could prove he was standing his ground? I understand that the state is going to argue against his position.

There is none or the State would not have filed charges. They are prohibited by law to do so. The State filed those charges because they have no proof of SYG. jmo

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 10:17 PM
There is no link because GZ has not made any public statements. But you MUST believe one of two things. A-GZ made these claims, as stated in the above post -- or -- B-GZ's relatives are lying. The two cannot co-exist.
That came across to me as the brother embellishing. I think he was more giving an example of Zimmerman's state of mind at the moment rather than directly quoting anything.

LambChop
04-22-2012, 10:18 PM
Ok, so can MOM request a copy of "John's" statement through discovery to use at the SYG hearing?

MOM can get his own statement from John. MOM has access to PI's. jmo

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 10:19 PM
There is none or the State would not have filed charges. They are prohibited by law to do so. The State filed those charges because they have no proof of SYG. jmo

I understand that it is the Judge's decision weather SYG applies, not the SA, and that is the whole point of the SYG hearing?

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 10:19 PM
Ok, so can MOM request a copy of "John's" statement through discovery to use at the SYG hearing?
The defense can request whatever they want from the State. I'm saying that if there was clearly exculpatory evidence that the prosecution withheld so they could go to trial, they're violating the immunity clause in Florida law.

mercuriod
04-22-2012, 10:20 PM
Ok, so can MOM request a copy of "John's" statement through discovery to use at the SYG hearing?

Why would he need to? Why wouldn't he just call "John" to the stand and get his answers from the horses mouth?

jjenny
04-22-2012, 10:21 PM
Plus it was preceded by shouting, leading a number of people to call 911. And there was a young man lying unconcsious. I don't buy the theory that the photog didn't realize the gravity of the situation.

So somebody took a photo? And the surprises anyone why exactly? Nowdays people take photos and videos of crimes in progress, not just some photo after the fact.

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 10:21 PM
If they had such a video they would not be charging him with 2nd degree murder. This was investigated by AC. Charges were brought because there is a belief that GZ pursued and confronted TM and that it does not fall under SYG. jmo

Ok, poor example on my part. I'll stick to the facts of the case. Will GZ be able to obtain a copy of John's witness statement and enter it as evidence in the SYG hearing?

TonyGatto
04-22-2012, 10:22 PM
That came across to me as the brother embellishing. I think he was more giving an example of Zimmerman's state of mind at the moment rather than directly quoting anything.

Could be. I really think this will come down to statements made by GZ to police. He said there were three interviews. How damaging might they be to GZ, I don't know, but I believe these interrogations are what SA is hanging its hat on and why they are going for murder.

mercuriod
04-22-2012, 10:22 PM
That came across to me as the brother embellishing. I think he was more giving an example of Zimmerman's state of mind at the moment rather than directly quoting anything.

"Embellishing", why shucks is that some fancy word for LYING? Guess all us backwards hicks just don't know the difference.

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 10:24 PM
"Embellishing", why shucks is that some fancy word for LYING? Guess all us backwards hicks just don't know the difference.
Nope. Just means to make it attractive and pretty. You can embellish and tell the truth at the same time. It's all about word choice and how you phrase it.

mercuriod
04-22-2012, 10:24 PM
Ok, poor example on my part. I'll stick to the facts of the case. Will GZ be able to obtain a copy of John's witness statement and enter it as evidence in the SYG hearing?

Again, why would he need to? Why wouldn't he just call "John" to the stand?

LambChop
04-22-2012, 10:24 PM
I understand that it is the Judge's decision weather SYG applies, not the SA, and that is the whole point of the SYG hearing?

It was not a judge that decided not to file charges against GZ initially, it was Mr. Wolfinger, SA. Once GZ was charged he is entitled to ask for a SYG hearing to be heard by the judge. SA could have made that decision and not charged GZ if the evidence showed GZ was telling the truth. For some reason SA feels GZ's statement is not consistent with the evidence for they filed 2nd degree murder charges, which is more than any of us here expected. Most thought it would be manslaughter. jmo

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 10:25 PM
Again, why would he need to? Why wouldn't he just call "John" to the stand?

I'm fairly confident Phoenix is just using that as an example to better articulate his question.

jjenny
04-22-2012, 10:25 PM
It was not a judge that decided not to file charges against GZ initially, it was Mr. Wolfinger, SA. Once GZ was charged he is entitled to ask for a SYG hearing to be heard by the judge. SA could have made that decision and not charged GZ if the evidence showed GZ was telling the truth. For some reason SA feels GZ's statement is not consistent with the evidence for they filed 2nd degree murder charges, which is more than any of us here expected. Most thought it would be manslaughter. jmo

For some reason? And political pressure doesn't have anything to do with any of it?

mercuriod
04-22-2012, 10:26 PM
Nope. Just means to make it attractive and pretty. You can embellish and tell the truth at the same time. It's all about word choice and how you phrase it.

So you think his brother wanted an adult being in diapers and being spoon fed for life to be seen as something attractive and pretty?

lauriej
04-22-2012, 10:27 PM
I understand that the burden is on the defendant, but if the state has evidence to show that he was standing his ground, would he not be entitled to it?

--possibly answered by now but..

--from 15 days of charging george, the SA has to hand over ALL of the discovery/evidence they have to date to the defense, and keep on doing so as they get more in...( whether it's good, bad or ugly for the defendant.)

uvamerica
04-22-2012, 10:28 PM
Maybe Zimmerman was attacked by a mysterious gunman, too. Even Cutcher, who was allegedly right there, didn't know Zimmerman was the shooter.

:what: A mysterious gunman ? what does that have to do with someone not understanding the gravity of the situation ?
Did this guy just come out, not ask any questions and say hey let me get some pics while I'm here !
Wouldn't he have asked GZ what the he!! was going on before snapping away ?

LambChop
04-22-2012, 10:29 PM
Nope. Just means to make it attractive and pretty. You can embellish and tell the truth at the same time. It's all about word choice and how you phrase it.

When you use the word embellish to describe a story it usually means adding fictitious details. lol

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 10:29 PM
So you think his brother wanted and adult being in diapers and being spoon fed for life to be seen as something attractive and pretty?
Attractive for Zimmerman's defense story, yes. I think you understand what I'm saying.

Imagine a person's brother fell down and hit their head on the pavement.

"He banged his head on some concrete"

versus

"He banged his head on some concrete so hard that my brother, you know, thought he may have wound up in diapers or something."

They're both truthful retellings of the event. One just has more of an attempted appeal to emotion in it. I won't go into the morality or ethics of any of it, though.

rhornsby
04-22-2012, 10:30 PM
Did Richard Hornsby just say that LE in general is racist?

In my line of work, it is clear that LE more frequently interact with African Americans as if they are suspicious or committing a crime, when compared to their interactions with Caucasians.

jjenny
04-22-2012, 10:30 PM
:what: A mysterious gunman ? what does that have to do with someone not understanding the gravity of the situation ?
Did this guy just come out, not ask any questions and say hey let me get some pics while I'm here !
Wouldn't he have asked GZ what the he!! was going on before snapping away ?

He probably did ask. But that's neither here nor there.
Again, nowdays people take videos and photos of everything. I have no clue why the fact that this person took a photo surprises anyone.

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 10:31 PM
When you use the word embellish to describe a story it usually means adding fictitious details. lol


embellish [ɪmˈbɛlɪʃ]
vb (tr)
1. to improve or beautify by adding detail or ornament; adorn
2. to make (a story) more interesting by adding detail

I feel that's exactly what the brother did.

grandmaj
04-22-2012, 10:32 PM
Speculation based on fact........... how many more times can I say that. I feel like I'm chasing a story of alien abduction and trying to find the space ship.

WE can speculate based on fact or we can change this thread to fact only no opinion no speculation........

Post links to support your speculation or opinion.

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 10:33 PM
Why would he need to? Why wouldn't he just call "John" to the stand and get his answers from the horses mouth?

Why? Because the statements were made the night of the incident and someone called to the stand may not be able to remember the details as clearly, or even worse, they may have changed their story from the time of the incident to the time of the hearing.

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 10:33 PM
:what: A mysterious gunman ? what does that have to do with someone not understanding the gravity of the situation ?
Did this guy just come out, not ask any questions and say hey let me get some pics while I'm here !
Wouldn't he have asked GZ what the he!! was going on before snapping away ?
Someone may have perceived Zimmerman as an additional victim of whoever shot Martin. As I stated, Cutcher and her friend didn't think Zimmerman was the shooter initially, either. One of them stood on the porch watching him. It's not a far stretch to think that you hear a gunshot, see someone without a gun, you assume they're a victim, too. Generally people that shoot other people run away.

mercuriod
04-22-2012, 10:34 PM
I feel that's exactly what the brother did.

Awww, you left off part of that definition

"Make (a statement or story) more interesting or entertaining by adding extra details, esp. ones that are not true."

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 10:35 PM
Awww, you left off part of that definition

"Make (a statement or story) more interesting or entertaining by adding extra details, esp. ones that are not true."

I did?

21757

Please highlight the area I omitted.

Also, "especially" does not make that dependent clause mandatory.

grandmaj
04-22-2012, 10:35 PM
Phoenix I believe all witnesses might be deposed. I'm not familiar with SYG but generally before court process the witnessed are deposed and any inconsistencies are challenged at that time.

Maybe we can ask a lawyer when they come on. Of course the state and the defense both have to share discovery during whatever calendar is set by the judge.

LambChop
04-22-2012, 10:36 PM
Ok, poor example on my part. I'll stick to the facts of the case. Will GZ be able to obtain a copy of John's witness statement and enter it as evidence in the SYG hearing?

I'm not sure John's statement will help him prove SYG. John did not see the initial encounter only them on the ground. Just because he observed GZ on the bottom does not mean GZ was not the aggressor. It could very well be presented that TM was defending himself and trying to get away. John hightailed it into the house and locked the door behind him. Don't think he observed too much and was more worried about his own safety. So how good of a witness will he be??? jmo

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 10:36 PM
--possibly answered by now but..

--from 15 days of charging george, the SA has to hand over ALL of the discovery/evidence they have to date to the defense, and keep on doing so as they get more in...( whether it's good, bad or ugly for the defendant.)

Thank you so much! That is what I was wondering. Those 15 days should be up this week, shouldn't they?

CriticalThinking
04-22-2012, 10:36 PM
That is not consistent with the phone call information from TM's gf.

Why not? It's consistent with the 911 tapes. I don't think his girlfriend will make a good witness. Actually she saw nothing. She can't testify to anything he did.

katydid23
04-22-2012, 10:37 PM
Why would he need to? Why wouldn't he just call "John" to the stand and get his answers from the horses mouth?

Why the heck would a defense attorney ever hear a witnesses testimony for the first time during a trial? Are you serious? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Of course he needs to get a copy of his statement first or depose him first, before he ever dares gets him on the stand.

jjenny
04-22-2012, 10:37 PM
I'm not sure John's statement will help him prove SYG. John did not see the initial encounter only them on the ground. Just because he observed GZ on the bottom does not mean GZ was not the aggressor. It could very well be presented that TM was defending himself and trying to get away. John hightailed it into the house and locked the door behind him. Don't think he observed too much and was more worried about his own safety. So how good of a witness will he be??? jmo

Again, prosecution will have to prove Zimmerman's story is false (beyond a reasonable doubt) at trial. At least in theory that's how it should work.
John says he observed something that supports Zimmerman version of the story.
The prosecution will have to prove that wrong.

CriticalThinking
04-22-2012, 10:39 PM
I'm not sure John's statement will help him prove SYG. John did not see the initial encounter only them on the ground. Just because he observed GZ on the bottom does not mean GZ was not the aggressor. It could very well be presented that TM was defending himself and trying to get away. John hightailed it into the house and locked the door behind him. Don't think he observed too much and was more worried about his own safety. So how good of a witness will he be??? jmo

He will make an excellent witness to Trayvon being on top beating George. He also said George was the one screaming. He also knows that George did not slam his own head into the pathway.

katydid23
04-22-2012, 10:40 PM
Why? Because the statements were made the night of the incident and someone called to the stand may not be able to remember the details as clearly, or even worse, they may have changed their story from the time of the incident to the time of the hearing.

Also, an attorney's first rule, NEVER ask a witness a question that you do not already know the answer to.

daisy7
04-22-2012, 10:40 PM
Speculation based on fact........... how many more times can I say that. I feel like I'm chasing a story of alien abduction and trying to find the space ship.

WE can speculate based on fact or we can change this thread to fact only no opinion no speculation........

Post links to support your speculation or opinion.

I think I found the spaceship :)

:abduction:

LambChop
04-22-2012, 10:41 PM
Why not? It's consistent with the 911 tapes. I don't think his girlfriend will make a good witness. Actually she saw nothing. She can't testify to anything he did.

She was talking to him on the phone. She can testify to what she heard. What she heard differs from GZ's story about their confrontation. She did not know about his statement and GZ did not know about her conversation with TM. I think her statements will be very powerful. jmo

Just K
04-22-2012, 10:41 PM
Why not? It's consistent with the 911 tapes. I don't think his girlfriend will make a good witness. Actually she saw nothing. She can't testify to anything he did.

She came to a grand jury and apparently did just fine. She will be ready when the time comes. She will again do just fine. IMO.

Zak
04-22-2012, 10:42 PM
<Mod Snip> The times I am using are from the call log of GZ's call that night that were included in GZ's 911 call history released by Sanford on their website.

Since there is no certainty on everyone's clocks, watches or phone being on the same time, when I can for my timeline speculations, I have tried to use the Sanford Police Department call logs. I figure they are more likely to keep those clocks synchronized to each other than any other source would.

A personal note about myself - I am going in for my first knee replacement May 15. So I will be more and more distracted and less able to participate over the next three weeks, then I'll be completely gone for a while, though I hope I can get online and read some of the threads.

As soon as I heal from the first knee replacement, I will be going back for the second, hopefully sometime in August or September. So the rest of this year will be pretty much trashed. I will be thinking of all of you, but don't know if I will be around much at all.

I wish you all the best on your future knee replacement. My husband had one knee done and then the next year the other. He says that it is the best thing he ever did. His new knee's feel great. So good luck with the surgery and work hard in rehab afterwards, it helps so much. TC

jjenny
04-22-2012, 10:43 PM
She came to a grand jury and apparently did just fine. She will be ready when the time comes. She will again do just fine. IMO.

What grand jury? There was no grand jury.

grandmaj
04-22-2012, 10:44 PM
I think I found the spaceship :)

:abduction:

This is what is going to happen if Gram has to keep chasing alien speculations

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1156&pictureid=11611

LambChop
04-22-2012, 10:44 PM
He will make an excellent witness to Trayvon being on top beating George. He also said George was the one screaming.

I don't recall any witnesses stating they were beating each other. What was reported is that they appeared to be wrestling. If TM were trying to get away and GZ was holding onto him it could appear as if they were wrestling. In any case Gilbreath mentioned TM's body as evidence. The bullet track will tell a story or two. John can't testify that GZ was screaming because he claims GZ was calling for help. For all we know GZ wanted John to get TM off of him so he could get up and hold onto TM until LE arrived. GZ already had all the help he needed.....he had the gun. If TM managed to get far enough away from GZ that he had started to stand when he was shot....it's all over for Mr. Z. Those 911 screams tell me TM knew GZ had a gun and was trying to get away from him. jmo

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 10:44 PM
What grand jury? There was no grand jury.

Possibly because she didn't feel there was enough to convince one.

JMO

Aedrys
04-22-2012, 10:45 PM
Why not? It's consistent with the 911 tapes. I don't think his girlfriend will make a good witness. Actually she saw nothing. She can't testify to anything he did.

Hello, SHE WAS ON THE PHONE WITH HIM!!!!! She can be a witness to anything she HEARD that night. She doesn't have to have been right there with him! She will make a good witness because what she heard was RIGHT BEFORE he got shot! I am not throwing her out as a witness because she wasn't right there at the scene with him. Thank GOD she wasn't or she might have gotten shot too!

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 10:45 PM
She came to a grand jury and apparently did just fine. She will be ready when the time comes. She will again do just fine. IMO.

What grand jury?

CriticalThinking
04-22-2012, 10:46 PM
She came to a grand jury and apparently did just fine. She will be ready when the time comes. She will again do just fine. IMO.

There was no grand jury.

CriticalThinking
04-22-2012, 10:48 PM
Hello, SHE WAS ON THE PHONE WITH HIM!!!!! She can be a witness to anything she HEARD that night. She doesn't have to have been right there with him! She will make a good witness because what she heard was RIGHT BEFORE he got shot! I am not throwing her out as a witness because she wasn't right there at the scene with him. Thank GOD she wasn't or she might have gotten shot too!

She can say what Trayvon said, but she might not be believed. There is no proof that is what he said. There is no recording. As a juror, I wouldn't put much stock into what she says.

I would believe the 911 tapes first.

Aedrys
04-22-2012, 10:51 PM
She can say what Trayvon said, but she might not be believed.

Why NOT? What reason on this earth would make her not believable? Am I in the Twilight Zone? Because that is what this feels like. She was on the phone with him, and will relay what he said. She has absolutely no reason to lie here. I don't understand at all how she could be a bad witness. And what, GZ's family and friends make perfect witnesses?

lauriej
04-22-2012, 10:53 PM
She can say what Trayvon said, but she might not be believed.

--true, the jury can give "little weight" "a lot of weight" or "no weight at all" to testimony from any witness.

--they may not believe a single word of what george has to say either.

-or francis taaffe..or robZ Jr...

grandmaj
04-22-2012, 10:53 PM
She can say what Trayvon said, but she might not be believed. There is no proof that is what he said. There is no recording. As a juror, I wouldn't put much stock into what she says.

I would believe the 911 tapes first.

I think that is what a jury or if no jury a judge does. Choose to believe or not, they weigh the testimony.

Just K
04-22-2012, 10:54 PM
What grand jury? There was no grand jury.
Sorry about that....she was called and gave her testimony to the special prosecutor and others...in the days before charges were filed. She will do just fine at trial.

MsCharlieChan
04-22-2012, 10:54 PM
What would be the point of withholding information? Why wouldn't the probable cause affidavit mention that GZ gave different versions of his story? Seems if they wanted the $1M bail they requested, they would have included that claim.

Agree. I'd really liked to have seen SA go a step further. Might have convinced the judge to set a more significant bail amount.

Adrienne37
04-22-2012, 10:56 PM
Possibly because she didn't feel there was enough to convince one.

JMO

Somehow I doubt that. It was reported very early on that Corey probably would not use a grand jury to issue an indictment. That doesn't appear to be a standard practice for her.

From the link below....

The prosecutor at the center of the national firestorm over whether the man who killed Trayvon Martin should be charged in his death says she’s not likely to need a grand jury to make the decision for her.

More probable, she said, is that she’ll be the one to decide.

“I always lean towards moving forward without needing the grand jury in a case like this,” Angela Corey, the state attorney assigned to the case by Gov. Rick Scott, told The Herald/Times. “I foresee us being able to make a decision, and move on it on our own.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/28/2717866/tough-minded-prosecutor-in-spotlight.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy




~jmo~

LambChop
04-22-2012, 10:56 PM
She can say what Trayvon said, but she might not be believed. There is no proof that is what he said. There is no recording. As a juror, I wouldn't put much stock into what she says.

I would believe the 911 tapes first.

Why would that be???? Why would her testimony be any less valuable than any other witness??? jmo

Cher352
04-22-2012, 10:56 PM
Could the photog be a LE official? That's the only way it would make sense to me...

OK, I am going to say this although I have no link....this is exactly what I heard back in the beginning of this case... that one of the officers used his cell to take a pic. This was way before this picture or the video ever appeared in the media.

I never mentioned this before because I didn't have a link but I am locate and saw a lot of coverage on local TV before i ever started following this case here a week or so later.

So because I don't have link I will say....jmo

suzihawk
04-22-2012, 10:57 PM
Kids like to listen to each other breathe!

"Hang up." http://www.princeton.edu/~vasari/smiley_on_the_phone.gif

"You hang up first." http://www.princeton.edu/~vasari/smiley_on_the_phone.gif

Aedrys
04-22-2012, 10:57 PM
--true, the jury can give "little weight" "a lot of weight" or "no weight at all" to testimony from any witness.

--they may not believe a single word of what george has to say either.

-or francis taaffe..or robZ Jr...

Exactly. It's up the jury to decide if any witnesses testimony is up to par. She has just as much chance of being believed as any witness for the prosecution or defense. I wouldn't throw her out so fast. She is a key witness, having heard Trayvon on the phone right before he died. Her testimony is going to be very compelling, IMO.

Reader
04-22-2012, 10:58 PM
What grand jury?

Not the GJ but she has been interviewed by the SA's office. I also think she will be a powerful witness to what Trayvon and GZ said to each other and the tone of those exchanges. She can also testify to how TM was trying to get away from GZ and he did not mention any plan to her of hiding out to jump on GZ. He only was fearful and wanting to get away from this strange man following him for some unknown reason...and he died still not knowing why. IMO

uvamerica
04-22-2012, 10:58 PM
"He was recognized by the city for his efforts, his mother said."

I would like to know if this is true, has anyone found anything that supports GZ was recognized by the city/mayor for his efforts ?
Is there any articles in any newspapers about it or news online ?
Is all we have GZ's word that this actually happened ?


http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/20/justice/florida-zimmerman-details/index.html?hpt=ju_c2

CriticalThinking
04-22-2012, 10:59 PM
Why NOT? What reason on this earth would make her not believable? Am I in the Twilight Zone? Because that is what this feels like. She was on the phone with him, and will relay what he said. She has absolutely no reason to lie here. I don't understand at all how she could be a bad witness. And what, GZ's family and friends make perfect witnesses?

It's hearsay. There was no witness to the phone call. I would give her testimony little weight. She is not an independent witness. She has a dog in this race.

Phoenixfla
04-22-2012, 11:00 PM
Agree. I'd really liked to have seen SA go a step further. Might have convinced the judge to set a more significant bail amount.


If they can. I personally think they would have if they could. Thats MO.

Just K
04-22-2012, 11:00 PM
I don't recall any witnesses stating they were beating each other. What was reported is that they appeared to be wrestling. If TM were trying to get away and GZ was holding onto him it could appear as if they were wrestling. In any case Gilbreath mentioned TM's body as evidence. The bullet track will tell a story or two. John can't testify that GZ was screaming because he claims GZ was calling for help. For all we know GZ wanted John to get TM off of him so he could get up and hold onto TM until LE arrived. GZ already had all the help he needed.....he had the gun. If TM managed to get far enough away from GZ that he had started to stand when he was shot....it's all over for Mr. Z. Those 911 screams tell me TM knew GZ had a gun and was trying to get away from him. jmo

"Wrestling" is the strongest word that any "witness" has used to describe the interaction, on the ground, between GZ & TM.

mommakk51
04-22-2012, 11:01 PM
Do you really think LE would let anyone, anyone other than LE get near GZ after taking a gun away from him???? Something just does not make sense about someone taking a picture of his head three minutes after he shot someone. Who would do that unless GZ asked for them to do so??? GZ was attended to by an EMT as soon as the scene was secured so his head would have been cleaned up right away. Something very unnatural about the picture being taken at that time unless there is more to the picture. jmo

The witness "John" called 911 from upstairs in his apartment. Would it be reasonable to say that he may have then came out on his upstairs balcony and taken that photo since it happened by his back porch directly UNDER the balcony?

JMO-IMO-IMHO-MOO ' n stuff.

Karmady
04-22-2012, 11:01 PM
It's hearsay. There was no witness to the phone call. I would give her testimony little weight. She is not an independent witness. She has a dog in this race.

I would like to hear Hornsby's thoughts on the admissibility of the gf's testimony

mercuriod
04-22-2012, 11:01 PM
"He was recognized by the city for his efforts, his mother said."

I would like to know if this is true, has anyone found anything that supports GZ was recognized by the city/mayor for his efforts ?
Is there any articles in any newspapers about it or news online ?
Is all we have GZ's word that this actually happened ?


http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/20/justice/florida-zimmerman-details/index.html?hpt=ju_c2

Yes, it kinda sounds like the "graduation" party for not graduating to me. IMO

CriticalThinking
04-22-2012, 11:01 PM
"He was recognized by the city for his efforts, his mother said."

I would like to know if this is true, has anyone found anything that supports GZ was recognized by the city/mayor for his efforts ?
Is there any articles in any newspapers about it or news online ?
Is all we have GZ's word that this actually happened ?


http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/20/justice/florida-zimmerman-details/index.html?hpt=ju_c2


If she lied under oath, the state could charge her with perjury.

csziggy
04-22-2012, 11:01 PM
You will be surprised how much better you will feel. Good luck to you.

Oh, I do know how much better it will be! I've been bone on bone for ten years on the left knee and five on the right. The aftermath of the replacement may hurt but at least there is the prospect that the pain will not be forever worsening like what I have been having. Everyone I know who's gotten knee replacement has told me it was worth it, even the lady I met who has had three replacements on EACH knee.

I've got three weeks but wanted to let people here know why my participation will be less.

Thank you all!

LambChop
04-22-2012, 11:01 PM
Agree. I'd really liked to have seen SA go a step further. Might have convinced the judge to set a more significant bail amount.

But the judge made a statement that bail decisions are pretty standard, this case is no different than any other. If he set his bail too high GZ would have a reasonable complaint. He's not special. He's no different than anyone else in that position. To make him so would be with prejudice. jmo

lauriej
04-22-2012, 11:02 PM
Why NOT? What reason on this earth would make her not believable? Am I in the Twilight Zone? Because that is what this feels like. She was on the phone with him, and will relay what he said. She has absolutely no reason to lie here. I don't understand at all how she could be a bad witness. And what, GZ's family and friends make perfect witnesses?

--it's what the defense "may" do to her.

--try to trip her up and twist her words, or, they may choose to "not be the bad guy to a young girl" and have her on and off the stand in a jiffy.

--i'm counting on the SA to elicit her truthful testimony, the jury will see it through the eyes of trayvon, and she will be the--rightfully so-- star witness.

mercuriod
04-22-2012, 11:03 PM
Oh, I do know how much better it will be! I've been bone on bone for ten years on the left knee and five on the right. The aftermath of the replacement may hurt but at least there is the prospect that the pain will not be forever worsening like what I have been having. Everyone I know who's gotten knee replacement has told me it was worth it, even the lady I met who has had three replacements on EACH knee.

I've got three weeks but wanted to let people here know why my participation will be less.

Thank you all!

My grandmother had hers done at 98 years old, now at about 105 she still loves her "new" knees.

lauriej
04-22-2012, 11:04 PM
If she lied under oath, the state could charge her with perjury.

--i guess they could, but i doubt it.

--after all--cindyA was never charged.

Concerned Papa
04-22-2012, 11:05 PM
I think that is what a jury or if no jury a judge does. Choose to believe or not, they weigh the testimony.

Just the fact that a 4 minute phone call existed and ended seconds before he was shot, is pretty compelling evidence, in and of itself, that it's unlikely one of the parties on the call was chatting while repeatedly smashing someone's head on a sidewalk OR holding their hands over someone's mouth and nose using their FULL body weight.

I've watched a lot of the world's true bad azzes, from Joe Fraizer to Mike Tyson, put brutal beatings on their opponents in the ring. Never saw one of em chatting on the phone while doing so.

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 11:05 PM
But the judge made a statement that bail decisions are pretty standard, this case is no different than any other. If he set his bail too high GZ would have a reasonable complaint. He's not special. He's no different than anyone else in that position. To make him so would be with prejudice. jmo

If the state met the Arthur standard, he could have been held without bond. This would imply, however, that the state does not feel he's a legitimate danger to others. Or that they don't have enough to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to a judge.

JMO

chefmom
04-22-2012, 11:06 PM
"Hang up." http://www.princeton.edu/~vasari/smiley_on_the_phone.gif

"You hang up first." http://www.princeton.edu/~vasari/smiley_on_the_phone.gif

"No! You hang up first!" :phone:

"We'll hang up on 3! 1! 2! 3!" :phone:




"You didn't hang up!" :phone:

"You didn't hang up, either!" :phone:



:floorlaugh:

Adrienne37
04-22-2012, 11:06 PM
"He was recognized by the city for his efforts, his mother said."

I would like to know if this is true, has anyone found anything that supports GZ was recognized by the city/mayor for his efforts ?
Is there any articles in any newspapers about it or news online ?
Is all we have GZ's word that this actually happened ?


http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/20/justice/florida-zimmerman-details/index.html?hpt=ju_c2

No but in the link provided, it states...

He was recognized by the city for his efforts, his mother said.

CNN has not been able to confirm Zimmerman's participation in the campaign.



~jmo~

Just K
04-22-2012, 11:06 PM
If she lied under oath, the state could charge her with perjury.

It wouldn't be a lie if she believed it to be true or was just retelling a story that had been told to her. It would simply be a mother taking her son's or someone's word for this story.

LambChop
04-22-2012, 11:07 PM
The witness "John" called 911 from upstairs in his apartment. Would it be reasonable to say that he may have then came out on his upstairs balcony and taken that photo since it happened by his back porch directly UNDER the balcony?

JMO-IMO-IMHO-MOO ' n stuff.

It was dark out. What kind of picture would he get from the second floor? That picture looks as if it was taken a foot or two away because of the glare on his head. I don't know... jmo

uvamerica
04-22-2012, 11:07 PM
If she lied under oath, the state could charge her with perjury.

If all she has is GZ's word and of course she believes him, that does not mean George didn't lie about it, its no skin off her nose, but for GZ it's not so good. :moo:

csziggy
04-22-2012, 11:08 PM
Prosecutors have also located a witness near the site of the shooting who described seeing the shadows of two men pass by her home, one chasing the other, immediately before Martin was killed. The pursuit, in the direction of Martin's home, indicates that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation, Gilbreath said, under questioning from Rionda.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/20/george-zimmerman-bail-hearing_n_1440175.html

But that contradicts what De La Rionda asked at the hearing and that Gilbreath agreed to:

DE LA RIONDA: Mr. Zimmerman never claimed that he chased - in terms of 'ran after - Mr. Martin?

GILBREATH: No.

DE LA RIONDA: But you still have, is it not true, a witness who describes someone chasing another person from the area where they ended up... in other words, from where, near where Mr. Martin lived to the area where the murder happened?

GILBREATH: Yes.

Found by HiHater and quoted in post: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #30

Not part of the CNN transcript. It can be viewed here:
http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

Starts at about 1:47:30 mark

I suspect we'll hear a LOT more from this witness at the SYG hearing!

IMO, JMO, etc.

Adrienne37
04-22-2012, 11:08 PM
I can't find Grandmaj's posts right now about Trayvon's girlfriend but we were plainly told to be very careful about how this little girl is discussed.


~jmo~

badme102
04-22-2012, 11:08 PM
Locked in you say? You betcha! They're locked right into this case with a defense whose core says George Zimmerman got out of his vehicle at [2:08] and followed Trayvon Martin until the dispatcher said "We don't need you to do that" at [2:26].

The State is also locked into George's claim of additionally walking, what would have required no more than 80 feet to the front of the next building, for an address or street sign

The State is further locked into, the defense's stated position of what's now record in this case, that George Zimmerman then turned around and was walking back to his car when he was brutally attacked by an unarmed 17 year old kid.

Is the State locked into that position taken by the defense in this bond hearing? You bet they are, as evidenced by the following exchange:



Is that's the State's ONLY evidence? All these geniuses in the media that see the simplicity of this Investigator's truthful reply as a negative, need to get out a calculator for a little arithmetic.

If you leave your car and walk somewhere for EIGHTEEN SECONDS, how long will it take you to walk BACK to your car?

Plus

How long does it take to walk EIGHTY additional feet for an address?

:waiting:

:waiting:

:waiting:

Add all that together and understand that is the timeline where George Zimmerman initially, and now his brilliant attorney, have told the world that this "attack" occurred leading to his justification in killing an unarmed 17 year old kid. Less than ONE MINUTE after George got out of his vehicle and started following Trayvon, his story calls for being "attacked". How long do you think it will take a jury to glance at a transcript of the 911 call and realize that George was still TALKING TO THE DISPATCHER two minutes after he got out of his vehicle?

How long do you think it will take a jury to recognize that Trayvon's body was found TWO HUNDRED AND THIRTY THREE FEET away from George's vehicle?

Is that all the State's got? Probably not, but what else do they need to prove George Zimmerman is a LIAR?
There are those pesky little facts again. :nono: We can't have that, Papa...it makes too much sense. :ignore:

Aedrys
04-22-2012, 11:09 PM
--it's what the defense "may" do to her.

--try to trip her up and twist her words, or, they may choose to "not be the bad guy to a young girl" and have her on and off the stand in a jiffy.

--i'm counting on the SA to elicit her truthful testimony, the jury will see it through the eyes of trayvon, and she will be the--rightfully so-- star witness.

That's the only thing that worries me is the defense. O'Mara is competent. I hope she is prepared thoroughly for her testimony. I know it would be him doing his job, but the thought of O'Mara making her cry or twisting her words - she's only a teenage girl - just makes me upset. I hope the jury sees through any attack O'Mara may do to her and not just throw out her testimony altogether. Her testimony is very important, and something the jury needs to hear and consider, IMO.

chefmom
04-22-2012, 11:10 PM
It's hearsay. There was no witness to the phone call. I would give her testimony little weight. She is not an independent witness. She has a dog in this race.

BBM

I wonder, however, if she will be used as a sort of outcry witness since there are time-stamped and dated phone records that prove they were on the phone together just prior to the shooting?

LambChop
04-22-2012, 11:10 PM
If the state met the Arthur standard, he could have been held without bond. This would imply, however, that the state does not feel he's a legitimate danger to others. Or that they don't have enough to prove him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to a judge.

JMO

Yes, and he admitted he shot TM and did turn himself in. jmo

Etilema
04-22-2012, 11:12 PM
Just the fact that a 4 minute phone call existed and ended seconds before he was shot, is pretty compelling evidence, in and of itself, that it's unlikely one of the parties on the call was chatting while repeatedly smashing someone's head on a sidewalk OR holding their hands over someone's mouth and nose using their FULL body weight.

I've watched a lot of the world's true bad azzes, from Joe Fraizer to Mike Tyson, put brutal beatings on their opponents in the ring. Never saw one of em chatting on the phone while doing so.

Although the call could have stayed connected without the person chatting. Earlier we had discussed the idea that TN's headset may have fallen out in the scuffle.

JMO


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Concerned Papa
04-22-2012, 11:14 PM
But that contradicts what De La Rionda asked at the hearing and that Gilbreath agreed to:


Found by HiHater and quoted in post: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #30 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7820081&postcount=452)


I suspect we'll hear a LOT more from this witness at the SYG hearing!

IMO, JMO, etc.

How does that contradict the question? I'm not following you.

Of course GZ never mentioned or admitted to chasing or running after TM.

He was too busy walking back to his car a few minutes earlier, remember? :rocker:

Reader
04-22-2012, 11:15 PM
BBM

I wonder, however, if she will be used as a sort of outcry witness since there are time-stamped and dated phone records that prove they were on the phone together just prior to the shooting?

Exactly...as CP just said above, her testimony and the proof of the phone calls is very important to the timeline and very easily shows that GZ is lying about what he was doing at the time...IMO

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 11:15 PM
Yes, and he admitted he shot TM and did turn himself in. jmo
I'm not sure I follow what this has to do with the state not seeking to hold Zimmerman without bond. If he committed one of a few violent felonies (one of which is murder), the state can request he be remanded without bond if the state can show that there is very little doubt he committed the crime (proof evident, presumption great). In fact, that was the entire point of the bond hearing. It's obviously not all that cut-and-dried.

Just K
04-22-2012, 11:16 PM
Going for that root canal now...see ya later, all.

HiHater
04-22-2012, 11:16 PM
We are to believe that in almost 5 years of marriage, Zimmerman's wife has never seen him angry?

I think that statement by her counts as lying under oath.

ETA: To make it worse, it's lying about something stupid. If people cannot be honest about small things, they'll have no problem lying about big things.

JMO IMO MOO

uvamerica
04-22-2012, 11:17 PM
No but in the link provided, it states...

He was recognized by the city for his efforts, his mother said.

CNN has not been able to confirm Zimmerman's participation in the campaign.



~jmo~

Thanks Adrienne, wow, can you imagine GZ sitting there knowing that was a lie and here's his mom repeating it for all the world to hear ? He has got to know that reporters and others are gonna check it out. Did he get a certificate or the key to the city or something that states why he was being recognized ? I would think he would have something to prove it IMO

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 11:18 PM
Thanks Adrienne, wow, can you imagine GZ sitting there knowing that was a lie and here's his mom repeating it for all the world to hear ? He has got to know that reporters and others are gonna check it out. Did he get a certificate or the key to the city or something that states why he was being recognized ? I would think he would have something to prove it IMO
CNN not being able to confirm it is not the same as CNN confirming he was not involved.

JMO

MsCharlieChan
04-22-2012, 11:18 PM
OK, I am going to say this although I have no link....this is exactly what I heard back in the beginning of this case... that one of the officers used his cell to take a pic. This was way before this picture or the video ever appeared in the media.

I never mentioned this before because I didn't have a link but I am locate and saw a lot of coverage on local TV before i ever started following this case here a week or so later.

So because I don't have link I will say....jmo

That's very interesting. Wonder why the photo would be released anonymously then. If an officer took it, shouldn't LE claim ownership and sanction its release? Would this mean they didn't take any good, official pix? Very strange.

lauriej
04-22-2012, 11:19 PM
No but in the link provided, it states...

He was recognized by the city for his efforts, his mother said.

CNN has not been able to confirm Zimmerman's participation in the campaign.



~jmo~

--when we 1st heard about george doing flier duty, outside of an african american church, for the "homeless man"-----the attorney for the homeless man said that she didn't believe it, as she did not recall this act at ALL.

--the homeless guy's attorney-----trayvon family attorney, natalie jackson.

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 11:20 PM
That's very interesting. Wonder why the photo would be released anonymously then. If an officer took it, shouldn't LE claim ownership and sanction its release? Would this mean they didn't take any good, official pix? Very strange.
Not that I believe this is what happened here, but first responders are sometimes known for taking pictures at scenes with their personal cellphones in an unofficial capacity (For example, I believe a young female was killed in a motor vehicle accident not too long ago, and FD or EMS took some pictures with their phone that was released to the press). That would generally result in some sort of disciplinary action against them if it came to light, though.

JMO

Reader
04-22-2012, 11:20 PM
No but in the link provided, it states...

He was recognized by the city for his efforts, his mother said.

CNN has not been able to confirm Zimmerman's participation in the campaign.



~jmo~

And it seems to me that if GZ organized meetings, handed out fliers and was recognized by the city for his efforts, there would at least have been an article in the local paper or local TV news as a record.

Makes you wonder if all the other 'humanitarian' stuff he claims is true also?

IMO

grandmaj
04-22-2012, 11:22 PM
But that contradicts what De La Rionda asked at the hearing and that Gilbreath agreed to:




Found by HiHater and quoted in post: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #30 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7820081&postcount=452)


I suspect we'll hear a LOT more from this witness at the SYG hearing!

IMO, JMO, etc.
It depends on which article is correct. I have not been able to find the tape. We may have to wait for doc dump. CNN transcript could be correct or incorrect as well as Huffington. We have to wait to see the real record is my comment that I followed up with.

badme102
04-22-2012, 11:23 PM
It's hearsay. There was no witness to the phone call. I would give her testimony little weight. She is not an independent witness. She has a dog in this race.

The content of the call is hearsay (every out of court statement offered for the truth of the statement is), but there are exceptions to hearsay which their conversation will fall within.

And in response to another person who questioned whether her testimony would be as valuable because she did not see anything, the answer is that it is objectively just as valuable. Eyesight is not a greater sense than hearing. They are both means of perceiving the world. But, ultimately, her testimony will have whatever weight the jury gives it.

Right now, her statements as released by the media are, to me personally, the most damning evidence against Zimmerman, because, if believed, they will show that his initial story to police about having been unsuspectingly jumped or attacked was fabricated. And if the jury thinks that was a lie, they might not believe anything else he has to say either.

Dr.Fessel
04-22-2012, 11:25 PM
I wonder why the SA asked Zimmerman's father if he ever took any pics of George's injuries the next day. He was pinning him down on something there. Right out of the blue.

grandmaj
04-22-2012, 11:26 PM
Not that I believe this is what happened here, but first responders are sometimes known for taking pictures at scenes with their personal cellphones in an unofficial capacity (For example, I believe a young female was killed in a motor vehicle accident not too long ago, and FD or EMS took some pictures with their phone that was released to the press). That would generally result in some sort of disciplinary action against them if it came to light, though.

JMO

Is this an alien supposition? Because to my knowledge the person who took the picture at this time is anonymous. And we really shouldn't be speculating on misconduct of any EMT's without something to back it up.

EMS was told to stage. What we know to be fact is that EMS did not enter until the scene was secured. So if this picture was taken 2.5 minutes or 3 minutes after the incident, EMS was not on scene.

Ambrosia
04-22-2012, 11:27 PM
Can you link which site you are using. When it gets quiet here I am going to listen to some of them I have. TY George Zimmerman Police Call w. Time Stamps and Notes - YouTube During the time the dispatcher is asking Z if he wants them to [meet him at the mailboxes.] - (sounds like someone calling another a 'stupid punk'.) I do hear it when the dispatcher is saying 'OK, no problem. I’ll let them know to call you when [they’re in the area."] Within [ ] I hear 'he's watching'. Either Zimmerman at this time was not alone and it was someone else besides Martin, or it was Martin talking and was within Zimmerman's earshot and sight.

m00c0w
04-22-2012, 11:30 PM
Is this an alien supposition? Because to my knowledge the person who took the picture at this time is anonymous. And we really shouldn't be speculating on misconduct of any EMT's without something to back it up.

EMS was told to stage. What we know to be fact is that EMS did not enter until the scene was secured. So if this picture was taken 2.5 minutes or 3 minutes after the incident, EMS was not on scene.
Not at all. Someone asked why, if it was taken by PD, it would have been submitted anonymously and ownership not taken. I was simply answering their question. As I said, I don't believe that happened in this instance. But it does happen, and may be why others may believe this happened.

ETA: You will also notice I used the generic term, "First responders". The only time I mentioned FD/EMS was giving an example of an actual event of this type that occurred.

grandmaj
04-22-2012, 11:31 PM
George Zimmerman Police Call w. Time Stamps and Notes - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BI03-MRKnI&feature=relmfu) During the time the dispatcher is asking Z if he wants them to [meet him at the mailboxes.] - (sounds like someone calling another a 'stupid punk'.) I do hear it when the dispatcher is saying 'OK, no problem. I’ll let them know to call you when [they’re in the area."] Within [ ] I hear 'he's watching'. Either Zimmerman at this time was not alone and it was someone else besides Martin, or it was Martin talking and was within Zimmerman's earshot and sight.

Excellent exercise. I might also suggest that the 911 tape with Rescue, any any and all tapes of the hearing be searched out. We are finding different spins in articles in the main stream media which could be leading us down the rabbit hole.

HiHater
04-22-2012, 11:32 PM
It's hearsay. There was no witness to the phone call. I would give her testimony little weight. She is not an independent witness. She has a dog in this race.

The phone call is corroborated by phone records. There is no dispute that the phone call happened.

What she says Trayvon says in the phone call is hearsay.

My position is that it doesn't matter what he was saying. The fact that Trayvon was on the phone with someone directly contradicts what GZ says happened. How many burglars are talking on the phone as they case houses? How many people sneak up on someone while they are engaged in a phone conversation?

uvamerica
04-22-2012, 11:32 PM
CNN not being able to confirm it is not the same as CNN confirming he was not involved.

JMO


No it doesn't, but if it really did happen, and George was as heavily involved as he and his family say, it shouldn't be to hard to confirm, since the case was huge after the video of the beating hit youtube, it was on the news everywhere.

"She said her son also participated in a 2010 campaign to "get justice" for an African-American homeless man who was seen in a videotape taken by an onlooker being struck by a man who later turned out to be the son of a Sanford police lieutenant."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/20/justice/florida-zimmerman-details/index.html?hpt=ju_c2

grandmaj
04-22-2012, 11:33 PM
Not at all. Someone asked why, if it was taken by PD, it would have been submitted anonymously and ownership not taken. I was simply answering their question. As I said, I don't believe that happened in this instance. But it does happen, and may be why others may believe this happened.

ETA: You will also notice I used the generic term, "First responders". The only time I mentioned FD/EMS was giving an example of an actual event of this type that occurred.

Thanks I misunderstood. I hope there are good pictures taken by LE minutes after the incident. Those are the photos that would hold the most weight.

grandmaj
04-22-2012, 11:36 PM
I believe there may be a hearing this week over the motions filed by the news agencies. Let's hope we have some real documents to work with. MSM is the best we have sometimes but it isn't always perfect.

Concerned Papa
04-22-2012, 11:37 PM
The content of the call is hearsay (every out of court statement offered for the truth of the statement is), but there are exceptions to hearsay which their conversation will fall within.

And in response to another person who questioned whether her testimony would be as valuable because she did not see anything, the answer is that it is objectively just as valuable. Eyesight is not a greater sense than hearing. They are both means of perceiving the world. But, ultimately, her testimony will have whatever weight the jury gives it.

Right now, her statements as released by the media are, to me personally, the most damning evidence against Zimmerman, because, if believed, they will show that his initial story to police about having been unsuspectingly jumped or attacked was fabricated. And if the jury thinks that was a lie, they might not believe anything else he has to say either.

IMO, GZ is going to be exposed as a liar to a jury when his ridiculous claim of being attacked while walking back to his car after 18 seconds is brought out.

What the girlfriend's testimony will do is help the jury figure out who was chasing who:


Gilbreath also said the state had a witness who reported seeing the shadows of two people running, one chasing the other, but could not identify who they were.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-20/news/os-george-zimmerman-bond-hearing-20120420_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-robert-zimmerman-son


http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMGFPhone-1.jpg

"Trayvon said, 'What are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-arrest-now-abc-reveals-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T5TNptVlNfx

IMO, JMO, MOO, etc.

Dr.Fessel
04-22-2012, 11:39 PM
No it doesn't, but if it really did happen, and George was as heavily involved as he and his family say, it shouldn't be to hard to confirm, since the case was huge after the video of the beating hit youtube, it was on the news everywhere.

"She said her son also participated in a 2010 campaign to "get justice" for an African-American homeless man who was seen in a videotape taken by an onlooker being struck by a man who later turned out to be the son of a Sanford police lieutenant."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/20/justice/florida-zimmerman-details/index.html?hpt=ju_c2

Flyers on cars at a church bothers me. Why not just hand them out when the people come out. I would really like to know where this church was and how did he know it was a black church?

HiHater
04-22-2012, 11:41 PM
I would like to hear Hornsby's thoughts on the admissibility of the gf's testimony

I believe he has already stated it may be admissible because of the state of mind exception (Regarding Trayvon). I can't remember where I read/saw him say that, so I'll say JMO

Going beyond that, one can look at Florida law:

(1) SPONTANEOUS STATEMENT.—A spontaneous statement describing or explaining an event or condition made while the declarant was perceiving the event or condition, or immediately thereafter, except when such statement is made under circumstances that indicate its lack of trustworthiness.
(2) EXCITED UTTERANCE.—A statement or excited utterance relating to a startling event or condition made while the declarant was under the stress of excitement caused by the event or condition.
(3) THEN-EXISTING MENTAL, EMOTIONAL, OR PHYSICAL CONDITION.—
(a) A statement of the declarant’s then-existing state of mind, emotion, or physical sensation, including a statement of intent, plan, motive, design, mental feeling, pain, or bodily health, when such evidence is offered to:
1. Prove the declarant’s state of mind, emotion, or physical sensation at that time or at any other time when such state is an issue in the action.
2. Prove or explain acts of subsequent conduct of the declarant.
(b) However, this subsection does not make admissible:
1. An after-the-fact statement of memory or belief to prove the fact remembered or believed, unless such statement relates to the execution, revocation, identification, or terms of the declarant’s will.
2. A statement made under circumstances that indicate its lack of trustworthiness.

Read more: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0000-0099/0090/Sections/0090.803.html

I think it's clear that her testimony is admissible, based on those three exceptions.

CathyinTexas
04-22-2012, 11:42 PM
A witness who saw shadows, could be any ones shadow.Others where walking their dogs,maybe some were running to get in from the rain.

Apparently, the witness was sure someone was chasing someone else.

Adrienne37
04-22-2012, 11:43 PM
CNN not being able to confirm it is not the same as CNN confirming he was not involved.

JMO

This is something that could have very easily been verified so I'd say if they haven't been able to verify it, that probably means it didn't happen.


~jmo~

grandmaj
04-22-2012, 11:44 PM
Hey wait a minute. When they were talking about this hearing for records, this was between MOM and the judge, wasn't there a comment made about the bond hearing and because it was telecast that record would not be subject to seal? I was at work and on and off, but I swear the record of the hearing should be public.

csziggy
04-22-2012, 11:45 PM
I wish you all the best on your future knee replacement. My husband had one knee done and then the next year the other. He says that it is the best thing he ever did. His new knee's feel great. So good luck with the surgery and work hard in rehab afterwards, it helps so much. TC
Thanks! I'm trying to get both knees done the same year, partly to get it over with and partly for financial reasons (co-pays, etc.). Rehab is worth every painful moment of the time it takes! Tell your husband thanks for his good example, too!

badme102
04-22-2012, 11:46 PM
George Zimmerman Police Call w. Time Stamps and Notes - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BI03-MRKnI&feature=relmfu) During the time the dispatcher is asking Z if he wants them to [meet him at the mailboxes.] - (sounds like someone calling another a 'stupid punk'.) I do hear it when the dispatcher is saying 'OK, no problem. I’ll let them know to call you when [they’re in the area."] Within [ ] I hear 'he's watching'. Either Zimmerman at this time was not alone and it was someone else besides Martin, or it was Martin talking and was within Zimmerman's earshot and sight.


I just listened to the parts you pointed out several times, and I can hear nothing but his breathing. What I do hear though, is around the time when he is explaining (or trying to explain) where the clubhouse is in relation to the entrance, he is VERY distracted. (Around the same time of all the "clicking")

You can easily tell that he is doing something else and is distracted during that time in the phone call.

I also believe that when the operator/dispatcher asked GZ if he wanted the officers to meet him at the mailboxes, and GZ wanted them to call him instead (with HIS location)--shows that GZ was already in the definite mind of hunting down this effing punk a**hole that always gets away.
Not a single doubt in my mind.

Betcha the jury will think so too.

Adrienne37
04-22-2012, 11:47 PM
--when we 1st heard about george doing flier duty, outside of an african american church, for the "homeless man"-----the attorney for the homeless man said that she didn't believe it, as she did not recall this act at ALL.

--the homeless guy's attorney-----trayvon family attorney, natalie jackson.

Ohhhh, I didn't realize the homeless man's attorney was Natalie Jackson. Can you say busted? That's pretty funny.


~jmo~

MsCharlieChan
04-22-2012, 11:48 PM
"Wrestling" is the strongest word that any "witness" has used to describe the interaction, on the ground, between GZ & TM.


The witness "John" called 911 from upstairs in his apartment. Would it be reasonable to say that he may have then came out on his upstairs balcony and taken that photo since it happened by his back porch directly UNDER the balcony?

JMO-IMO-IMHO-MOO ' n stuff.

I've posed the same question earlier. I don't think anyone has presented evidence ruling John out as the camera man.

In fact, I'm wondering exactly what time John came into the picture, and under what circumstances. Was he just coming home from somewhere? Was he watching TV, heard noises outside, and went to check it out?... Or...

I've read a suggestion that maybe Zimmerman knocked on John's door once he ended the 911 call. This was suggested by someone (off-site) who thought the background noises toward the end of the 911 sounded like GZ knocking on a door.

In any case, John could have run back outside with a camera, IMO. Could have been another neighbor too though.

Concerned Papa
04-22-2012, 11:48 PM
Excellent exercise. I might also suggest that the 911 tape with Rescue, any any and all tapes of the hearing be searched out. We are finding different spins in articles in the main stream media which could be leading us down the rabbit hole.

You gotta know by now that some of us are tough to get shoved down a rabbit hole. :rocker:

CathyinTexas
04-22-2012, 11:50 PM
We don't have brandishing laws in Georgia. The only way they would have been guilty of a crime is if they actually pointed the gun at the individuals, which would pretty much be aggravated assault.

According to the article, they were pointing it at their heads, so said one of the victims.

Adrienne37
04-22-2012, 11:50 PM
I believe he has already stated it may be admissible because of the state of mind exception (Regarding Trayvon). I can't remember where I read/saw him say that, so I'll say JMO

Going beyond that, one can look at Florida law:

(1) SPONTANEOUS STATEMENT.—A spontaneous statement describing or explaining an event or condition made while the declarant was perceiving the event or condition, or immediately thereafter, except when such statement is made under circumstances that indicate its lack of trustworthiness.
(2) EXCITED UTTERANCE.—A statement or excited utterance relating to a startling event or condition made while the declarant was under the stress of excitement caused by the event or condition.
(3) THEN-EXISTING MENTAL, EMOTIONAL, OR PHYSICAL CONDITION.—
(a) A statement of the declarant’s then-existing state of mind, emotion, or physical sensation, including a statement of intent, plan, motive, design, mental feeling, pain, or bodily health, when such evidence is offered to:
1. Prove the declarant’s state of mind, emotion, or physical sensation at that time or at any other time when such state is an issue in the action.
2. Prove or explain acts of subsequent conduct of the declarant.
(b) However, this subsection does not make admissible:
1. An after-the-fact statement of memory or belief to prove the fact remembered or believed, unless such statement relates to the execution, revocation, identification, or terms of the declarant’s will.
2. A statement made under circumstances that indicate its lack of trustworthiness.

Read more: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0000-0099/0090/Sections/0090.803.html

I think it's clear that her testimony is admissible, based on those three exceptions.

Mr. Hornsby explained it in thread #25, post #661 (I'm pretty sure) when he was asked about statements that Zimmerman made to his brother, father, Taaffe, and Oliver and how those could be admitted into evidence so I would imagine it would work the same way for Trayvon's GF.


~jmo~

lauriej
04-22-2012, 11:51 PM
It depends on which article is correct. I have not been able to find the tape. We may have to wait for doc dump. CNN transcript could be correct or incorrect as well as Huffington. We have to wait to see the real record is my comment that I followed up with.

--we have the full bond hearing video, ty adrienne, and someone else posted it as well ( sorry, forget who that was! )


http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815
--bond hearing --april 20/2012---2 hours 14 minutes---

Adrienne37
04-22-2012, 11:52 PM
Hey wait a minute. When they were talking about this hearing for records, this was between MOM and the judge, wasn't there a comment made about the bond hearing and because it was telecast that record would not be subject to seal? I was at work and on and off, but I swear the record of the hearing should be public.

I'm pretty sure the judge said that everything in the file from the hearing, etc. would be made available after the necessary addresses, etc., were redacted.


~jmo~