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imamaze
04-23-2012, 11:24 AM
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passionflower
04-23-2012, 11:27 AM
One thing that bothers me is was GZ covered in TM blood?
If you are struggling and shoot a person, doesn't his blood get all over you???
Did GZ shoot from afar?
Powder burns?
Have I missed this???
Thanks

LiveLaughLuv
04-23-2012, 11:29 AM
George Zimmerman Bond Hearing.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...20/cnr.01.html


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...20/cnr.02.html


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...20/cnr.03.html

cityslick
04-23-2012, 11:29 AM
Taken from the previous thread...


LOL, if you think that doesn't make sense, wait til George is cross examined on being attacked by TM while he was walking back to his truck after 18 seconds and an address hunt, both of which combined wouldn't take more than i minute.

There's no way to do anything other than guess as to Trayvon's movements at this point with the information we have.

George, on the other hand, has stated his version of a complete path of movement at points that can and will be directly tied into the 911 recording with it's timeline. The only "estimate" involved is how long it took to walk approximately 80 feet for an address. His story places him being attacked by TM a full minute BEFORE he ever got off the phone.

IMO, once the jury realizes the impact of what his statements have said to LE, the lights will go out on any SYG defense, particularly if the body was so far down that sidewalk.

I think a jury is going to have the same question I have, which is, if GZ truly was chasing TM all over the place and TM was less than half a minute from where he was trying to get to from the point that GZ's own words say 'he's running', then why wouldn't someone who was scared just run home? As a matter of fact, based on the distances that we've seen, TM could of been clear out of the subdivision (back entrance) by the time GZ got off the phone from dispatch.

I'm also curious how this lines up with the GF's phone call. Are the times from the GF's phone call from a cell log or just from what she said the times were?

Aedrys
04-23-2012, 11:31 AM
Someone mentioned that GZ can't even go to 7-11 and buy a drink while out on bond. It's the ultimate irony. GZ, who didn't mind pursuing someone with a gun, is probably worried about someone else with a gun pursuing him now.

Phoenixfla
04-23-2012, 11:34 AM
One thing that bothers me is was GZ covered in TM blood?
If you are struggling and shoot a person, doesn't his blood get all over you???
Did GZ shoot from afar?
Powder burns?
Have I missed this???
Thanks

A gunshot wound does not necessarilly bleed. I have seen bullet entry points where there was no blood at all. (on the COPS tv show that is)

HiHater
04-23-2012, 11:34 AM
Someone mentioned that GZ can't even go to 7-11 and buy a drink while out on bond. It's the ultimate irony. GZ, who didn't mind pursuing someone with a gun, is probably worried about someone else with a gun pursuing him now.

Yup. And just like Trayvon was unable to carry a firearm by law, GZ now has that same disadvantage...

atthelake
04-23-2012, 11:35 AM
In Session says George will speak publicly in the next hour. FYI

ETA: Others downthread have said that I misunderstood!!!!!!! That they only said they would be replaying testimony of George. :blush: Sorry!

LiveLaughLuv
04-23-2012, 11:36 AM
One thing that bothers me is was GZ covered in TM blood?
If you are struggling and shoot a person, doesn't his blood get all over you???
Did GZ shoot from afar?
Powder burns?
Have I missed this???
Thanks

He didn't appear to be bloody as he was being escorted to the police station..

At the bond hearing the investigator did say TM was shot in close proximity with GS burns on his clothing and chest..



A few new pieces of evidence did come out Friday.

How close, asked the judge, was the gun to the victim when it was fired?

So close, said Gilbreath, that there were burns on Trayvon's sweat shirt and skin.

Gilbreath also said the state had a witness who reported seeing the shadows of two people running, one chasing the other, but could not identify who they were.

Although Gilbreath offered little evidence Friday that portrayed Zimmerman as a murderer, he said he did have evidence proving him a liar.

Zimmerman gave authorities five statements, de la Rionda disclosed Friday. Sometimes they were inconsistent and contrary to physical evidence, Gilbreath said, although, he did not offer specifics.

In one version, Gilbreath said, Zimmerman said he was inside his vehicle and Trayvon was outside, circling it. Still, Zimmerman got out and followed the teenager, Gilbreath testified.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-20/news/os-george-zimmerman-bond-hearing-20120420_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-robert-zimmerman-son


Did they confiscate GZ's clothing that night? No, it doesn't appear they did.

So, everything will weigh on the autopsy, is my belief...I hope the State is alot more forceful and convincing at trial...I truly believe the State was railroaded, they weren't prepared to talk evidence, just prior behavior and arrests...but it appears to be a strategic move on the defense and it worked in their favor...

Donjeta
04-23-2012, 11:36 AM
I don't really care that he is out on bond. Let him play on his computer and let those who donate to him support him. I cannot understand why gun right groups even support him? This has nothing to do with gun rights. No one wants to take those rights away. Sure, I know myself personally, believes that the law should be ammended and better defined, but I don't think the law should be completely abandoned. It's a great law when it comes to people entering your homes and your business as I believe everyone has a right to defend themselves and their property against people clearly breaking a law and could very well intend to hurt you. The problem with the law is that it needs to be better defined when outside of a residence/business. People should be allowed to innocently walk down the street, in a residence they have every right to be at, without the expectation of being killed because some over-zealous man has pegged you as a criminal just for walking down the street.

You know the saying, a smart person can get out of trouble that a wise person would never get into.

I think GZ is an example of the gun-rights version of the proverb. A person who is armed with hollow point bullets can effectively defend himself in situations that an unarmed person would never get into.

He was big and tough with the gun in his holster and started following someone, probably wanted to stop the a*****e from getting away, got into trouble for it and was able to save his life because he was armed. Heigh ho for George.
But what are the odds that if he hadn't been armed he'd have been less likely to play Batman and Robin and more likely to just wait for the police. , No one would have been in a position in which they felt they had to defend themselves, no lives would have been lost.

I don't carry, I've never owned a gun and it would never in a million years occur to me that it would be a good idea to make someone "suspicious" notice me and consider me a hostile force by stalking him.

atthelake
04-23-2012, 11:36 AM
One thing that I have noticed and top of mind is how often it is said by DT and others (Tafee) that he "wasn't on duty" when this happened. WTF! You aren't *on duty* for NW - it's a continual thing! Me thinks they *think* have a loophole somewhere?

Wise Old Owl
04-23-2012, 11:37 AM
In Session says George will speak publicly in the next hour. FYI
huh? What? Why? :eek: Oh my Lord, what in the world has he GOTTA say now? I turned it on.

Let's see....................

Oh wait, maybe to ask for more donations? IDK - I just can't imagine him getting on camera, much less his attorney allowing it. Just boggles my mind.




JMHO

Adrienne37
04-23-2012, 11:38 AM
In Session says George will speak publicly in the next hour. FYI

So much for keeping a low profile.


~jmo~

Marshmallow
04-23-2012, 11:38 AM
In Session says George will speak publicly in the next hour. FYI



why would his atty allow that? not only will it rile up the masses, anything he says or does will be fodder for tv shows and newsprint. I can't see how this is not trying the case in the public again

Donjeta
04-23-2012, 11:39 AM
One thing that I have noticed and top of mind is how often it is said by DT and others (Tafee) that he "wasn't on duty" when this happened. WTF! You aren't *on duty* for NW - it's a continual thing! Me thinks they *think* have a loophole somewhere?

I think it's because there were articles with neighborhood watch coordinators saying that it was against NW rules to be armed. Thus the emphasis that he wasn't on patrol, he was going to the Target.

atthelake
04-23-2012, 11:39 AM
Watching for the first time on In Session the hearing where the lead investigator is on the stand. Hmmmmmmmmmmm, difference I see from Yuri, IYKWIM

Wise Old Owl
04-23-2012, 11:40 AM
Hold up - Me thinks In Session is taking some liberties with their words. They are re-running the bail hearing so maybe this "GZ to speak publicly" is just going to be his "on stand testimony" at the hearing.

Probably is. ***sigh***



JMHO

Concerned Papa
04-23-2012, 11:41 AM
Taken from the previous thread...



I think a jury is going to have the same question I have, which is, if GZ truly was chasing TM all over the place and TM was less than half a minute from where he was trying to get to from the point that GZ's own words say 'he's running', then why wouldn't someone who was scared just run home? As a matter of fact, based on the distances that we've seen, TM could of been clear out of the subdivision (back entrance) by the time GZ got off the phone from dispatch.

I'm also curious how this lines up with the GF's phone call. Are the times from the GF's phone call from a cell log or just from what she said the times were?

All I know about the GF's call is that it was supposed to be 4 minutes in length, starting at 7:12 pm.

The way I understand this SYG defense issue, GZ will have to bring it to the court as his defense. He will then have to offer proof as to it's validity. He's going to have a very difficult time showing that proof based on what that bond hearing clearly indicated his story and timeline is, as stated to LE.

GZ's problem is not going to be as much what TM was doing, but what he clearly was NOT doing per GZ's statements to LE.

LiveLaughLuv
04-23-2012, 11:42 AM
One thing that I have noticed and top of mind is how often it is said by DT and others (Tafee) that he "wasn't on duty" when this happened. WTF! You aren't *on duty* for NW - it's a continual thing! Me thinks they *think* have a loophole somewhere?

I believe so that Twin Lakes Retreat do not get sued...I believe since they sent that memo to call GZ, once you've call the police..is going to be inserted into a wrongful death lawsuit...they basically made GZ the sheriff of that community...they will have to anwer in a court of law...

Gin
04-23-2012, 11:42 AM
So much for keeping a low profile.


~jmo~
JMO/IMO
No kidding. Seriously, I believe Z has had a serious problem with impluse control for a long time. It will probably be his downfall while out on bail, but we'll have to see.

suzihawk
04-23-2012, 11:49 AM
In Session says George will speak publicly in the next hour. FYI

Are you sure they said that? I'm watching IS and I didn't hear that. I heard them say GZ's testimony (from the bond hearing) would be coming up in about an hour. I'm multitasking though, so I may have missed it.

BTW, Jean C. said that no alcohol was part of his conditions of release.

cityslick
04-23-2012, 11:51 AM
All I know about the GF's call is that it was supposed to be 4 minutes in length, starting at 7:12 pm.

The way I understand this SYG defense issue, GZ will have to bring it to the court as his defense. He will then have to offer proof as to it's validity. He's going to have a very difficult time showing that proof based on what that bond hearing clearly indicated his story and timeline is, as stated to LE.

GZ's problem is not going to be as much what TM was doing, but what he clearly was NOT doing per GZ's statements to LE.

The picture being painted is GZ as the aggressor, chasing TM with a gun throughout the neighborhood. And yet, somehow TM winds up not far from where GZ initially saw him 'running'. In fact, there is no evidence that GZ had left the vicinity of his car because we have no idea where the actual confrontation started. If GZ was looking all over the place for TM, he didn't go very far from his car, considering the fact the car and the spot where TM lay was probably somewhere around 200 ft (little over 50 yds).

ETA: In addition, TM was never that far from his house. He could of ran to his house, ran inside and locked the door before GZ ever caught sight of him again.

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 11:53 AM
One thing that bothers me is was GZ covered in TM blood?
If you are struggling and shoot a person, doesn't his blood get all over you???
Did GZ shoot from afar?
Powder burns?
Have I missed this???
Thanks
According to the investigator, there were powder burns, gunshot residue, and stippling consistent with a close-proximity gunshot. I think they said less than 6 inches.

Donjeta
04-23-2012, 11:55 AM
Did Trayvon have the house keys? How many people were home?

If he had to ring the doorbell and no one heard him (because they were listening to music on headphones or something) he could have been stuck outside.

grandmaj
04-23-2012, 11:55 AM
OK THE RADIO SHOW

What Tricia expressed on WS radio is her opinion...... and it could well be based on a bad resource. Which is why we are so tight on our allowed sources for information here.

The rules for the Radio show and here are different.

It is not our concern here, what was said on the Radio show. If you have a question or comment to be made about the radio show, express it to Tricia in a PM or call into the radio show please.

Since Twitters cannot be discussed here, or the political blog we need to stop this discussion. The rule is if we can't link we cannot discuss. And we are certainly going to hold on our stance on the rules that this girl cannot be sleuthed.

I know it is all confusing. Your resource to discuss the Radio Show would be Tricia. I believe there are even links on the Radio Show page or you can PM her.

atthelake
04-23-2012, 11:56 AM
Are you sure they said that? I'm watching IS and I didn't hear that. I heard them say GZ's testimony (from the bond hearing) would be coming up in about an hour. I'm multitasking though, so I may have missed it.

BTW, Jean C. said that no alcohol was part of his conditions of release.

Sorry guys, but I *thought* (from sitting in another room multitasking) that I heard that he would be speaking publically, in *addition* to them saying that later today they would be replaying his testimony. ATL cowers and goes to corner :blushing:

cityslick
04-23-2012, 11:59 AM
Did Trayvon have the house keys? How many people were home?

If he had to ring the doorbell and no one heard him (because they were listening to music on headphones or something) he could have been stuck outside.

Only problem with that is that was never indicated to the GF during the call. If the call really did happen after 'he's running', he should of been on his doorstep while he was talking to the GF.

Donjeta
04-23-2012, 12:01 PM
Only problem with that is that was never indicated to the GF during the call. If the call really did happen after 'he's running', he should of been on his doorstep while he was talking to the GF.

If the call really did happen?

It would have to have happened if it's in the phone records. I think anyway.

Gin
04-23-2012, 12:02 PM
I think it's because there were articles with neighborhood watch coordinators saying that it was against NW rules to be armed. Thus the emphasis that he wasn't on patrol, he was going to the Target.

Sometimes words are interesting. He was going to Target...or is it more accurate he was going to target someone?

40+calls indicate to me he targeted individuals regularly.

LiveLaughLuv
04-23-2012, 12:02 PM
The picture being painted is GZ as the aggressor, chasing TM with a gun throughout the neighborhood. And yet, somehow TM winds up not far from where GZ initially saw him 'running'. In fact, there is no evidence that GZ had left the vicinity of his car because we have no idea where the actual confrontation started. If GZ was looking all over the place for TM, he didn't go very far from his car, considering the fact the car and the spot where TM lay was probably somewhere around 200 ft (little over 50 yds).

ETA: In addition, TM was never that far from his house. He could of ran to his house, ran inside and locked the door before GZ ever caught sight of him again.

How could he? GZ ambushed this kid...what the hell??? He didn't leave the vicintiy of his car??? Seriously? His car on one end, TM lay dead at the other end...right smack dab in the middle...70 yards from his home...Why didn't GZ observe from a distance???

His mentaliy, his impluse would not let him...He deemed TM a criminal and was determined to not let him get away...What the heck is wrong with the thinking here?

This is why a jury is very iffy...all it takes is one person to railroad the thinking of others...even if it doesn't make sense...

TM was not commiting a crime...TM was only trying to go home...and was ambused by a gun toting self appointed sheriff of Twin Lakes...if he felt you didnt' belong, then you don't belong..how dare he!

atthelake
04-23-2012, 12:03 PM
Hold up - Me thinks In Session is taking some liberties with their words. They are re-running the bail hearing so maybe this "GZ to speak publicly" is just going to be his "on stand testimony" at the hearing.

Probably is. ***sigh***



JMHO

I've edited my original post to reflect that y'all are noting I misunderstood so others don't hit that post and go whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, and they post before they read that y'all have corrected my misunderstanding!

Thanks WOO! Miss our times together in another thread/chat room! :hug:

cityslick
04-23-2012, 12:03 PM
If the call really did happen?

It would have to have happened if it's in the phone records. I think anyway.

No, I meant if it really happened at the time we are led to believe that it happened. I think there really was a call between TM and GF. That's why I asked earlier if there has been any verification (from cell record) on the times TM was talking to his GF.

cityslick
04-23-2012, 12:05 PM
How could he? GZ ambushed this kid...what the hell??? He didn't leave the vicintiy of his car??? Seriously? His car on one end, TM lay dead at the other end...right smack dab in the middle...70 yards from his home...Why didn't GZ observe from a distance???

His mentaliy, his impluse would not let him...He deemed TM a criminal and was determined to not let him get away...What the heck is wrong with the thinking here?

This is why a jury is very iffy...all it takes is one person to railroad the thinking of others...even if it doesn't make sense...

TM was not commiting a crime...TM was only trying to go home...and was ambused by a gun toting self appointed sheriff of Twin Lakes...if he felt you didnt' belong, then you don't belong..how dare he!

BBM

Why didn't he then? He had plenty of time to do so?

Donjeta
04-23-2012, 12:06 PM
No, I meant if it really happened at the time we are led to believe that it happened. I think there really was a call between TM and GF. That's why I asked earlier if there has been any verification (from cell record) on the times TM was talking to his GF.

Hold on, we had the cell phone logs here yesterday...

http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/call+log.pdf

Donjeta
04-23-2012, 12:07 PM
BBM

Why didn't he then? He had plenty of time to do so?

Scared of leading the crazy gunman to his house?
Wasn't scared yet and wanted to talk to the GF without prying ears?

Aedrys
04-23-2012, 12:08 PM
Did Trayvon have the house keys? How many people were home?

If he had to ring the doorbell and no one heard him (because they were listening to music on headphones or something) he could have been stuck outside.

I don't think he ever got close enough to his home for that. I think instead, he might have run away so this person following him wouldn't know where he lived. I know if it were me, I would not want to lead a person following me right to my home.

He either tried to get home and was shot, or tried to divert GZ from knowing where he lived and then was shot.

Phoenixfla
04-23-2012, 12:08 PM
How could he? GZ ambushed this kid...what the hell??? He didn't leave the vicintiy of his car??? Seriously? His car on one end, TM lay dead at the other end...right smack dab in the middle...70 yards from his home...Why didn't GZ observe from a distance???

His mentaliy, his impluse would not let him...He deemed TM a criminal and was determined to not let him get away...What the heck is wrong with the thinking here?

This is why a jury is very iffy...all it takes is one person to railroad the thinking of others...even if it doesn't make sense...

TM was not commiting a crime...TM was only trying to go home...and was ambused by a gun toting self appointed sheriff of Twin Lakes...if he felt you didnt' belong, then you don't belong..how dare he!

Please provide a link to where it was stated that GZ ambushed TM.

TM may have committed a crime if he is the one that started the physical altercation.


This is why a jury is very iffy...all it takes is one person to railroad the thinking of others...even if it doesn't make sense...


Have you seen the movie Twelve Angry Men? Excellent movie!

LiveLaughLuv
04-23-2012, 12:08 PM
Only problem with that is that was never indicated to the GF during the call. If the call really did happen after 'he's running', he should of been on his doorstep while he was talking to the GF.


If the call really did happen?

It would have to have happened if it's in the phone records. I think anyway.

CS, are you purposing trying to mislead here? :what:

Of course there was a phone call...how do you think they uncovered who TM was talking to a minute before being shot dead?

He should have been home tucked in his bed and not on a slab in the morgue...GZ is the aggressor, didn't back off when told to...shot a teen dead when he truly didn't have to...He was 'itching' to use his weapon, is the impression I get..a disappointed cop, walking tall with loaded weapon tucked in his waistband...without it, he's a nothing...cried in his cell...big bad George crying in his cell....was he feeling sorry for killilng TM or sorry it didn't go his way with the SYG defense...

cityslick
04-23-2012, 12:08 PM
Hold on, we had the cell phone logs here yesterday...

http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/call+log.pdf

Thanks, so according the that log and going off of distances we have seen, TM should of been on his doorstep (or very close to it) by the time he was talking to the GF.

LynnM
04-23-2012, 12:11 PM
No, I meant if it really happened at the time we are led to believe that it happened. I think there really was a call between TM and GF. That's why I asked earlier if there has been any verification (from cell record) on the times TM was talking to his GF.

To my knowledge, only the bill has been made public, showing a call coming in to Trayvon from his friend at 7:12 and lasting for 4 minutes. So the call could have been from 7:12 to 7:16 or it could have come in a little later and ended a little sooner depending on the cell phone company's policy of rounding. I think we will have to wait for the actual phone records to know the exact times.

cityslick
04-23-2012, 12:11 PM
CS, are you purposing trying to mislead here? :what:

Of course there was a phone call...how do you think they uncovered who TM was talking to a minute before being shot dead?

He should have been home tucked in his bed and not on a slab in the morgue...GZ is the aggressor, didn't back off when told to...shot a teen dead when he truly didn't have to...He was 'itching' to use his weapon, is the impression I get..a disappointed cop, walking tall with loaded weapon tucked in his waistband...without it, he's a nothing...cried in his cell...big bad George crying in his cell....was he feeling sorry for killilng TM or sorry it didn't go his way with the SYG defense...

I didn't mean there wasn't no phone call, see my earlier post. I was asking about specifically when it happened and how it lines up with 'he's running' by GZ. See my post in the earlier thread trying to math out run distances from where it's estimated he may have been when GZ said 'he's running'.

Aedrys
04-23-2012, 12:11 PM
Please provide a link to where it was stated that GZ ambushed TM.

TM may have committed a crime if he is the one that started the physical altercation.



Have you seen the movie Twelve Angry Men? Excellent movie!

How about a link where TM ambushed GZ? There is no proof of who started the altercation, but it seems a-okay to believe that TM ambushed GZ, but not okay to say that GZ ambushed TM. I don't get that.

LiveLaughLuv
04-23-2012, 12:11 PM
Please provide a link to where it was stated that GZ ambushed TM.

TM may have committed a crime if he is the one that started the physical altercation.



Have you seen the movie Twelve Angry Men? Excellent movie!

Can't give a link when it's from my mind...I feel he was ambushed...you don't have to agree..but you guys are really snarky lately here...taking the victim as the perp and the perp as the victim...What the hell is wrong with that picture...FGS...

TM was being pursued by GZ...he ambused him at the foot path, he should have been long in his vehicle, is my belief..and if TM punched him, he was well within his own SYG defense...big dude following TM, where he was worried about why this guy was following him...

cityslick
04-23-2012, 12:13 PM
Can't give a link when it's from my mind...I feel he was ambushed...you don't have to agree..but you guys are really snarky lately here...taking the victim as the perp and the perp as the victim...What the hell is wrong with that picture...FGS...

TM was being pursued by GZ...he ambused him at the foot path, he should have been long in his vehicle, is my belief..and if TM punched him, he was well within his own SYG defense...big dude following TM, where he was worried about why this guy was following him...

I'm just trying to sleuth out where everyone was at different points that night. I've never said anything about who ambushed who.

Phoenixfla
04-23-2012, 12:16 PM
To my knowledge, only the bill has been made public, showing a call coming in to Trayvon from his friend at 7:12 and lasting for 4 minutes. So the call could have been from 7:12 to 7:16 or it could have come in a little later and ended a little sooner depending on the cell phone company's policy of rounding. I think we will have to wait for the actual phone records to know the exact times.

If the 4 minute call was just a 4 minute voicemail left for TM, would it appear differently on the bill, or does it appear the same as receiving a call?

LiveLaughLuv
04-23-2012, 12:16 PM
see you all later before I get timed out or banned...

this is really very frustrating to suggest the victim didn't try hard enough to get to his door...


shame on those who think this teen is the problem and not GZ, who isn't even close to fulfilling his dreams at 29 y/o....that tells alot about a guy who doens't have his career set, yet...:banghead:

cityslick
04-23-2012, 12:18 PM
see you all later before I get timed out or banned...

this is really very frustrating to suggest the victim didn't try hard enough to get to his door...


shame on those who think this teen is the problem and not GZ, who isn't even close to fulfilling his dreams at 29 y/o....that tells alot about a guy who doens't have his career set, yet...:banghead:

I never said that either. GZ's asserts that TM came and ambushed him, which means obviously that TM would not have gone straight home if that was the truth. Why is it not fair to track TM's movements as well as GZ's? They were both part of the incident that night.

mercuriod
04-23-2012, 12:19 PM
Thanks, so according the that log and going off of distances we have seen, TM should of been on his doorstep (or very close to it) by the time he was talking to the GF.

Is there some reason that TM should not have been allowed to have privacy during his phone call with his GF away from the prying ears of his 13 year old soon to be step brother? Do you for some reason think that Trayvon had no right to be outside? Why is there a problem that Trayvon may have thought that he had lost his crazy perverted stalker and decided to continue his conversation with his GF?

Phoenixfla
04-23-2012, 12:19 PM
How about a link where TM ambushed GZ? There is no proof of who started the altercation, but it seems a-okay to believe that TM ambushed GZ, but not okay to say that GZ ambushed TM. I don't get that.

I never claimed anyone ambushed anyone. I never said TM ambushed GZ.

My personal belief, based on the evidence, is that TM was getting angry that GZ was watching him, and decided to confront GZ after nearly reaching his home. I further believe that the reported lack of injury to TM indicates that TM may have been the agressor in the physical confrontation. IMO

cityslick
04-23-2012, 12:21 PM
Is there some reason that TM should not have been allowed to have privacy during his phone call with his GF away from the prying ears of his 13 year old soon to be step brother? Do you for some reason think that Trayvon had no right to be outside? Why is there a problem that Trayvon may have thought that he had lost his crazy perverted stalker and decided to continue his conversation with his GF?

No there isn't, but that's an opinion of yours, not a verified fact, right?

ETA: Remember, GZ said 'he was running' and that happened before the phone call.

mercuriod
04-23-2012, 12:23 PM
I never claimed anyone ambushed anyone. I never said TM ambushed GZ.

My personal belief, based on the evidence, is that TM was getting angry that GZ was watching him, and decided to confront GZ after nearly reaching his home. I further believe that the reported lack of injury to TM indicates that TM may have been the agressor in the physical confrontation. IMO

BBM: Lack of injury to TM? Are you serious? You don't think a deadly gunshot wound directly to the chest is an injury?

Steft50
04-23-2012, 12:23 PM
One thing that bothers me is was GZ covered in TM blood?
If you are struggling and shoot a person, doesn't his blood get all over you???
Did GZ shoot from afar?
Powder burns?
Have I missed this???
Thanks

Something I heard a long time ago is bleeding out stops once the heart stops pumping. Could be there was little blood if Trayvon died pretty quickly if that is true.

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 12:24 PM
Is there some reason that TM should not have been allowed to have privacy during his phone call with his GF away from the prying ears of his 13 year old soon to be step brother? Do you for some reason think that Trayvon had no right to be outside? Why is there a problem that Trayvon may have thought that he had lost his crazy perverted stalker and decided to continue his conversation with his GF?
Is there actual evidence the "brother" was home that night? So far, I've seen the story change a few times on that one. The final version of events implying he was not home.

Concerned Papa
04-23-2012, 12:24 PM
The picture being painted is GZ as the aggressor, chasing TM with a gun throughout the neighborhood. And yet, somehow TM winds up not far from where GZ initially saw him 'running'. In fact, there is no evidence that GZ had left the vicinity of his car because we have no idea where the actual confrontation started. If GZ was looking all over the place for TM, he didn't go very far from his car, considering the fact the car and the spot where TM lay was probably somewhere around 200 ft (little over 50 yds).

ETA: In addition, TM was never that far from his house. He could of ran to his house, ran inside and locked the door before GZ ever caught sight of him again.

Not far from where he started running? According to the SPD and SFD his body was 100 feet from where he started running, and equally important 233 feet from GZ's vehicle.

As to any evidence of GZ leaving the area of his car, I don't know what evidence they may or may not have other than the very simple response given by the Investigator at the Bond Hearing:


O'MARA: Since. Today. Do you have any evidence that conflicts with his suggestion that he had turned around and went back to his car?

GILBREATH: Other than his statement, no.

When his statement, with the 911 call's running times in red, is now locked into the record as follows:


O'MARA: Mr. Zimmerman gave a statement that very night, did he not?

GILBREATH: Yes.

O'MARA: And within that statement, he said that he saw somebody, he was concerned, he got out of his car, he called non-emergency, and began to go towards the person. [2:08] Is that paraphrasing but pretty correct so far?

GILBREATH: Paraphrasing, yes.

O'MARA: Ok. And if I go wrong, stop me and let me know where I wrong.

GILBREATH: I will.

O'MARA: And then he said he went back around and went towards his car, did he not? In his statement.

GILBREATH: In his statement after he was told not to talk by the dispatcher. [2:26]

O'MARA: Got you.

GILBREATH: He says that he continued on to find a street sign and then went back to his car.

O'MARA: So he said before he knew anyone else saw or did not see what had happened, he gave a statement saying he went back to his car, correct?

GILBREATH: No. Towards his car.

O'MARA: Would it be safe to assume then in giving him, and him giving that statement to the police wherein he said one, "I turned around and went back to my car"; and two, that he did not start the fight and that he was assaulted by Mr. Martin. When he gave that statement, did he have any indication that there were or were not half a dozen witnesses who saw the whole thing?

He has clearly told LE AND his attorney that he followed TM for 18 seconds, then went on an "address hunt" requiring that he continue walking for 80 feet to the front of the building he was behind, and then started walking back towards his truck but was attacked by TM.

It doesn't get any more simple than that. He walked for 18 seconds, then walked 80 feet more, then was walking back to his truck. Any way you look at it, it would take LESS than 1 minute.

That's his story, and that's why "other than his statement, no" is all the State will need to prove he's lying about that night. IMO, what TM could or couldn't have done won't have a big bearing on anything once the jury gets a handle on GZ's timeline.

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 12:25 PM
BBM: Lack of injury to TM? Are you serious? You don't think a deadly gunshot wound directly to the chest is an injury?

No need to be pedantic. I think it's clear what he meant.

mercuriod
04-23-2012, 12:25 PM
Is there some reason that TM should not have been allowed to have privacy during his phone call with his GF away from the prying ears of his 13 year old soon to be step brother? Do you for some reason think that Trayvon had no right to be outside? Why is there a problem that Trayvon may have thought that he had lost his crazy perverted stalker and decided to continue his conversation with his GF?


No there isn't, but that's an opinion of yours, not a verified fact, right?

ETA: Remember, GZ said 'he was running' and that happened before the phone call.

I am going to assume you are asking about the part BB & in red? And please notice my signature line.

Phoenixfla
04-23-2012, 12:25 PM
Can't give a link when it's from my mind...I feel he was ambushed...you don't have to agree..but you guys are really snarky lately here...taking the victim as the perp and the perp as the victim...What the hell is wrong with that picture...FGS...

TM was being pursued by GZ...he ambused him at the foot path, he should have been long in his vehicle, is my belief..and if TM punched him, he was well within his own SYG defense...big dude following TM, where he was worried about why this guy was following him...

I'm sorry if you feel I am I am being snarky. It was not intended. I appolgize if that is how I came across.


..and if TM punched him, he was well within his own SYG defense

I'll have to disagree with you there. Please listen to the excellent interview with Richard Hornsby on Websleuths Radio if you feel TM was within his rights to throw the first punch. They discuss it in great detail.

Gin
04-23-2012, 12:26 PM
see you all later before I get timed out or banned...

this is really very frustrating to suggest the victim didn't try hard enough to get to his door...


shame on those who think this teen is the problem and not GZ, who isn't even close to fulfilling his dreams at 29 y/o....that tells alot about a guy who doens't have his career set, yet...:banghead:
JMO/IMO
I totally understand. It's bad enough Trayvon's life was snuffed out. Do we really need to question if whether or not he tried hard enough to avoid being murdered? :banghead:

HiHater
04-23-2012, 12:26 PM
If the 4 minute call was just a 4 minute voicemail left for TM, would it appear differently on the bill, or does it appear the same as receiving a call?

It doesn't matter IMO, because in this case there was an actual phone call...:moo::twocents:

Phoenixfla
04-23-2012, 12:28 PM
BBM: Lack of injury to TM? Are you serious? You don't think a deadly gunshot wound directly to the chest is an injury?

The gunshot wound was not what started the confrontation. Please look back at the previous posts and you will see that we were discussing evidence of how the physical confrontation started. I have not seen any evidence that indicated that GZ threw the first punch.

Donjeta
04-23-2012, 12:28 PM
Did the gf say TM was running, are there witnesses to the fact that he was running or are we just assuming that he was because GZ said so?

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 12:28 PM
Not far from where he started running? According to the SPD and SFD his body was 100 feet from where he started running, and equally important 233 feet from GZ's vehicle.

As to any evidence of GZ leaving the area of his car, I don't know what evidence they may or may not have other than the very simple response given by the Investigator at the Bond Hearing:



When his statement, with the 911 call's running times in red, is now locked into the record as follows:



He has clearly told LE AND his attorney that he followed TM for 18 seconds, then went on an "address hunt" requiring that he continue walking for 80 feet to the front of the building he was behind, and then started walking back towards his car but was attacked by TM.

It doesn't get any more simple than that. He walked for 18 seconds, then walked 80 feet more, then was walking back to his truck. Any way you look at it, it would take LESS than 1 minute.

That's his story, and that's why "other than his statement, no" is all the State will need to prove he's lying about that night. IMO, what TM could or couldn't have done won't have a big bearing on anything once the jury gets a handle on GZ's timeline.
To be blunt, you really don't know what he did for that amount of time. You can speculate all you want to, but nothing implies there was constant movement for that entire amount of time. At the very least, he could have been pacing or walking in circles as he was talking to the dispatcher. The timelines not fitting whatever direction you perceive a person to continuously move to (or away from) doesn't mean much without all of the facts. You're assuming he never stopped walking or continuously walked in one path or route. That's a very big assumption.

ScubaTwinn
04-23-2012, 12:28 PM
see you all later before I get timed out or banned...

this is really very frustrating to suggest the victim didn't try hard enough to get to his door...


shame on those who think this teen is the problem and not GZ, who isn't even close to fulfilling his dreams at 29 y/o....that tells alot about a guy who doens't have his career set, yet...:banghead:

I totally agree. WHY let someone know where you live? And apparently his younger brother was there.

I have been jogging and had someone stop their car blocking the sidewalk across the street to take the hard top off their car. And they kept watching me approach, watching, watching, paying more attention to me than their car. And I stared back, memorizing the car, what he looked like, anything that I might need to know. When I got to the street he was parked on blocking the sidewalk, I took an immediate left into the yard and ran through the yard clear up to the front doors. I kept running through yards, right up next to their front doors. I PASSED my house up because no one was home at the time and I wasn't about to let this person know where I lived. I was ready to bolt if he so much as moved and start banging on one of these doors and yelling. I kept turning around giving him the stink eye. He realized what I was doing and left.

lauriej
04-23-2012, 12:31 PM
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/23/11351669-zimmermans-attorney-apologizes-for-clients-apology-to-trayvon-martins-parents?lite

Zimmerman's attorney apologizes for client's apology to Trayvon Martin's parents


During his bond hearing last week, Zimmerman addressed Martin’s family directly, saying he was sorry for the loss of their son. Speaking on “CBS This Morning” (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505266_162-57418752/zimmerman-attorney-apology-was-ill-timed/?tag=morningFlexGridLeft;flexGridModule) Monday, attorney Mark O’Mara said he didn’t realize the family would feel the apology came at the wrong time.

“Had I known or been told that that wasn't the time, it wouldn't have happened. So, I apologize for that,” O’Mara said.

O’Mara said his client wouldn’t have apologized at the hearing had he seen the press conference.

“My concern is, I didn’t realize that the way that they had responded to me was through a press conference, where they said it was too late or not an appropriate time,” he said.

Phoenixfla
04-23-2012, 12:32 PM
It doesn't matter IMO, because in this case there was an actual phone call...:moo::twocents:

Probably your right, but what evidence supports that? I believe her statement was taken 3 weeks after the event?

badme102
04-23-2012, 12:36 PM
I'm seeing some saying that MOM said TM's GF's name at the bond hearing and I just listened to the feed (video) again:

http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815


MOM--during this time, Martin was on the phone with a friend and described to her what was happening. And how'd you get that information?(1:16:07)

Gilbreath--From Detective Osteen

MOM--And how did he get it?

Gilbreath--He interviewed the witness

MOM--And (inaudible) her name? I think he says "remember her name"

Gilbreath--No, I don't

MOM--You don't know it?

Gilbreath--I do....I have access to it

Prosecutor-- (cross talk.) Your honor...I apologize..I'm gonna object to that witness' name being disclosed for safety...(cross talk)

MOM--and I apologize, It came out and I realized....

Prosecutor--thank you

MOM--I agree and I apologize...

Judge--So you know who the witness is...and you know what the name is...but you just don't want to reveal it at this time pursuant to court order?

Gilbreath--Yes, sir and I do have access to it, however, I do not--no.

MOM--that's fine, I apologize for the slip and the enquiry


This is all just by my ears, but I don't see where MOM mentions TM's GF's name?
Did they take it out?

Of course, this is all CNN has on their transcript:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html



O'MARA: During this time, Martin was on the phone with a friend and described what was happening. How did you get that information?

GILBREATH: From Detective Osteen.

O'MARA: How did he get it?

GILBREATH: He interviewed the witness.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll object to that witness' name being disclosed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I apologize.

(END LIVE FEED)

Adrienne37
04-23-2012, 12:37 PM
Is there actual evidence the "brother" was home that night? So far, I've seen the story change a few times on that one. The final version of events implying he was not home.

How about the links to those changes please?


~jmo~

Adrienne37
04-23-2012, 12:40 PM
The gunshot wound was not what started the confrontation. Please look back at the previous posts and you will see that we were discussing evidence of how the physical confrontation started. I have not seen any evidence that indicated that GZ threw the first punch.

Nor is there any evidence that indicates that Trayvon threw the first punch either.


~jmo~

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 12:42 PM
How about the links to those changes please?


~jmo~

They're scattered here and there and everywhere. I've discussed it many times here. I have a rationale for my beliefs. If you don't share the same, that's your prerogative.

Adrienne37
04-23-2012, 12:43 PM
I'm seeing some saying that MOM said TM's GF's name at the bond hearing and I just listened to the feed (video) again:

http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815




This is all just by my ears, but I don't see where MOM mentions TM's GF's name?
Did they take it out?

Of course, this is all CNN has on their transcript:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html

Why would O'Mara apologize if he didn't speak her name during the hearing? He knows full well that this child is a minor and he didn't need to do that. I guess he has the same selective hearing about not needing to do something that Zimmerman does.



~jmo~

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 12:44 PM
Why would O'Mara apologize if he didn't speak her name during the hearing? He knows full well that this child is a minor and he didn't need to do that. I guess he has the same selective hearing about not needing to do something that Zimmerman does.



~jmo~

Maybe because he was pushing for the name? How do you even know O'Mara has the name if discovery hasn't taken place?

annalia
04-23-2012, 12:45 PM
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/23/11351669-zimmermans-attorney-apologizes-for-clients-apology-to-trayvon-martins-parents?lite

Zimmerman's attorney apologizes for client's apology to Trayvon Martin's parents

Nice little dig at the family while giving his apology, but hang on a second. Didn't MOM acknowledge right after the bond hearing that he was aware that the family had indeed rejected their attempt at a meeting? I can't find the link to it.

I'm sure that MOM is every bit the great defense attorney as some say, but his style is becoming clearer, kind of passive/aggressive, using honey while sticking in the dagger.

JMHO

LolaMoon08
04-23-2012, 12:46 PM
Did the gf say TM was running, are there witnesses to the fact that he was running or are we just assuming that he was because GZ said so?

George says Trayvon is "running" but the girlfriend says she told Trayvon to run, but he said he was just going to walk fast.

George also said Trayvon was "checking him out" and walking "towards him" too? And he was "on drugs" and had "something in his pocket" I think George has a problem with embellishing because I know no one who would get out of their car and follow someone like that... which George admits he was doing.

MOO

grandmaj
04-23-2012, 12:46 PM
I've never seen an MSM link which changed the story of Mr. Martin that the brother was home and Trayvon went to the store. I'd also appreciate a link.

Adrienne37
04-23-2012, 12:47 PM
They're scattered here and there and everywhere. I've discussed it many times here. I have a rationale for my beliefs. If you don't share the same, that's your prerogative.

You plainly state the following in your post...

Is there actual evidence the "brother" was home that night? So far, I've seen the story change a few times on that one. The final version of events implying he was not home.

You are implying that the story has changed many times. It's not unreasonable to ask another for a link when they appear to be stating something as fact. I certainly don't see anywhere on your post that it is your opinion. Therefore, it is my right to ask for a link to a MSM article that indicates that the story has changed regarding the 13-year-old being home or not being home that night.



~jmo~

PaintingAnemone
04-23-2012, 12:48 PM
see you all later before I get timed out or banned...

this is really very frustrating to suggest the victim didn't try hard enough to get to his door...


I've found that it can incredibly frustrating discussing this case sometimes - everyone has their own ideas and opinions on what happened, and their own perspective of who is "innocent" or "guilty." We have far too little in the way of facts, so we're left to speculate about every little thing and pick at it for any hint of meaning, be it real or imagined. Evidence that's obvious to some people, may not be so obvious to others. Heck, I've seen posts from people insisting they didn't see certain things that were clearly visible, even after it had been highlighted and circled for them.

Let me share a short story with you guys:

I was at the laundromat with my boyfriend the other day, and we were folding our clothes. There was a pair of socks that he didn't recognize, so he insisted they must be mine. "No," I said, "They're yours, because I've seen you wear them." Besides, they were men's socks; I don't buy men's socks, so they certainly didn't belong to me. I suggested that maybe he had simply forgotten he had them.
Now, this wasn't a spare sock that might have come from another person's laundry. It was a complete pair of socks. But then we get into a brief back and forth about whose socks they are. Finally, I pick up one of my own socks, hold it up against one of the socks in dispute, and show him that just the size difference alone should indicate that they are clearly not my socks. He sees the difference, acknowledges that they're not mine - and then repeats AGAIN that they're not his, and says he's going to just throw them away! :floorlaugh:

Moral of the story: don't get so invested in whatever side you've chosen that you ignore what's right in front of you and are willing to throw away your own socks rather than admit to being wrong.

LolaMoon08
04-23-2012, 12:51 PM
Also, when you listen to GZ call to LE, the dispatch asks George immediately after George got out of the call if he was following Trayvon and he said "Yep" and the dispatch says "We don't need you to be doing that" and George says "Okay."

At that very moment is when GZ should have done a 180 and went back to his car... but we know he didn't.

MOO

LolaMoon08
04-23-2012, 12:54 PM
And anyone who believes that George was really going to check an address, when he could have jumped in his car and drove around to check it -- I've got a 2012 New England Patriots Super Bowl Ring to sell.

MOO

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 12:55 PM
You plainly state the following in your post...

Is there actual evidence the "brother" was home that night? So far, I've seen the story change a few times on that one. The final version of events implying he was not home.

You are implying that the story has changed many times. It's not unreasonable to ask another for a link when they appear to be stating something as fact. I certainly don't see anywhere on your post that it is your opinion. Therefore, it is my right to ask for a link to a MSM article that indicates that the story has changed regarding the 13-year-old being home or not being home that night.



~jmo~
I'm referring to the "brother" being home and Martin was allegedly out getting him skittles, to Martin having begged the father to be let out of the house with the trip to the store as an excuse. And the "brother" not having been mentioned since the initial reporting of the event.


His fateful walk to the convenience store for a bag of Skittles and an iced tea on the evening of February 26 happened only because the teenager pleaded to leave the apartment, said Horton.
"The only reason he got a chance to go to the store is because he begged his dad to go," he said. At the time, his father and his fiancée had gone out to dinner and to watch a basketball game, leaving Martin at the townhouse, according to Martin family spokesman Ryan Julison.
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/30/us/trayvon-martin-profile/index.html

I have not seen anything since the initial reports of Martin going to the store to get him candy that implicitly or explicitly states the "brother" was home at the time. This is why I asked for evidence. Is that too much?

annalia
04-23-2012, 12:57 PM
George says Trayvon is "running" but the girlfriend says she told Trayvon to run, but he said he was just going to walk fast.

George also said Trayvon was "checking him out" and walking "towards him" too? And he was "on drugs" and had "something in his pocket" I think George has a problem with embellishing because I know no one who would get out of their car and follow someone like that... which George admits he was doing.

MOO

I get so confused about this running talk and how it's supposed to make Trayvon more suspicious. GZ said very early in the 911 call that he's running, that's when GZ got out of the car, that doesn't mean that Trayvon never stopped running or that he was running all the way home.

Didn't the GF say at one point that Trayvon had thought he lost GZ? If he thought he had lost him it's easy to see that he may have stopped running, he may have stopped completely so he could talk longer to his girlfriend. Was it when GZ appears behind him for the second time that Trayvon says no I'll walk fast?

Trayvon says to his gf that he thought he had lost GZ, GZ says he doesn't know where this kid is. Those two statements make it very plausible that Trayvon had indeed stopped running because he thought at that point GZ was no longer after him.

How would Trayon have even known that GZ had gotten out of his car if he, according to GZ's own words, ran and was down by the other entrance?

JMHO

grandmaj
04-23-2012, 12:57 PM
I'm referring to the "brother" being home and Martin was allegedly out getting him skittles, to Martin having begged the father to be let out of the house with the trip to the store as an excuse. And the "brother" not having been mentioned since the initial reporting of the event.


http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/30/us/trayvon-martin-profile/index.html

I have not seen anything since the initial reports of Martin going to the store to get him candy that implicitly or explicitly states the "brother" was home at the time. This is why I asked for evidence. Is that too much?

OK we have to go with what MSM says. And nothing more. So if there is a link somewhere fine it can be discussed. But otherwise this young man is a minor and we aren't going down the road of sleuthing on him. :) Thanks.

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 12:58 PM
OK we have to go with what MSM says. And nothing more. So if there is a link somewhere fine it can be discussed. But otherwise this young man is a minor and we aren't going down the road of sleuthing on him. :) Thanks.
And I'm just asking for a link to something that a previous poster asserted that I have not seen myself.

ETA: To me, the brother's presence in the home is extremely relevant because it might alter Martin's actions. If the brother was home, I could see him not wanting to go back, or possibly being locked out. If the brother was not home, Martin surely had a key or some other way to get into the house - I don't think he would have locked himself out. I'm not asking for anything regarding the brother other than evidence he was actually home at the time.

Adrienne37
04-23-2012, 01:01 PM
I'm referring to the "brother" being home and Martin was allegedly out getting him skittles, to Martin having begged the father to be let out of the house with the trip to the store as an excuse. And the "brother" not having been mentioned since the initial reporting of the event.


http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/30/us/trayvon-martin-profile/index.html

I have not seen anything since the initial reports of Martin going to the store to get him candy that implicitly or explicitly states the "brother" was home at the time. This is why I asked for evidence. Is that too much?

Again, you plainly stated in your original post....

Is there actual evidence the "brother" was home that night? So far, I've seen the story change a few times on that one. The final version of events implying he was not home.

You state you have seen the story change a few times on that one. The final version of events implying he was not home. I've personally seen absolutely nothing in the MSM to indicate that the 13-year-old was not at home yet you state that you've seen the story change a few times. Where are the links to the MSM articles stating that the brother may have or may not have been at home. Additionally, the final version of events imply that he was not home, where is a MSM link to this information? I'm sure I know where you've read this information at but I would like a link from a MSM source documenting what you state as fact.

It's not unreasonable of me to ask for a link to an article be supplied if a poster is stating it as fact.


~jmo~

grandmaj
04-23-2012, 01:03 PM
And I'm just asking for a link to something that a previous poster asserted that I have not seen myself.

ETA: To me, the brother's presence in the home is extremely relevant because it might alter Martin's actions. If the brother was home, I could see him not wanting to go back, or possibly being locked out. If the brother was not home, Martin surely had a key or some other way to get into the house - I don't think he would have locked himself out. I'm not asking for anything regarding the brother other than evidence he was actually home at the time.

I understand your point. And the only article in MSM I've seen says he was home. Again if he is a minor we can't go sleuthing out anything on him except as it is in MSM. Which means for at least now, the article we read says he was home waiting. Frustrating I know that we can't be sure of the facts. Gotta wait for a doc dump. The best we have now is MSM. :)

badme102
04-23-2012, 01:06 PM
Why would O'Mara apologize if he didn't speak her name during the hearing? He knows full well that this child is a minor and he didn't need to do that. I guess he has the same selective hearing about not needing to do something that Zimmerman does.



~jmo~

That's why I was asking if they took it out. I never heard him say the name and couldn't find it anywhere.

daisy7
04-23-2012, 01:06 PM
I saw someone asked earlier about the location of the 7-11. The Herald has some great maps on their site.

I can't seem to copy the pics, but the link is here http://www.miamiherald.com/trayvon-martin/index.html

PaintingAnemone
04-23-2012, 01:09 PM
I totally agree. WHY let someone know where you live? And apparently his younger brother was there.

I have been jogging and had someone stop their car blocking the sidewalk across the street to take the hard top off their car. And they kept watching me approach, watching, watching, paying more attention to me than their car. And I stared back, memorizing the car, what he looked like, anything that I might need to know. When I got to the street he was parked on blocking the sidewalk, I took an immediate left into the yard and ran through the yard clear up to the front doors. I kept running through yards, right up next to their front doors. I PASSED my house up because no one was home at the time and I wasn't about to let this person know where I lived. I was ready to bolt if he so much as moved and start banging on one of these doors and yelling. I kept turning around giving him the stink eye. He realized what I was doing and left.

AGREED! Years ago on a trip to Holland, I was out shopping and a man approached me and said I was attractive and that he'd like to get to know me. I thanked him for his compliment, but wasn't interested, and said so. He continued to insist, and wouldn't be dissuaded with politeness, so I repeated my disinterest more firmly and bluntly, and walked away.
He then FOLLOWED me - not closely, but enough for me to know he was there. I wanted to go back to my hotel, which was within walking distance, but didn't want to lead him back to where I was staying, and I walked in circles for nearly an hour - sometimes I'd duck into a store, browse for a bit, hoping he'd go away, but when I came out he would still be there. He wasn't doing anything. But he wouldn't go away. Finally I went into a McDonald's, told the manager what was going on, and asked if they could call the police. I didn't know if what he was doing was a crime, but it was creepy and I was certainly afraid. The manager went out, threatened to have the man arrested, and gave me something hot to drink so I could wait around until I was sure he had left. It was the middle of the afternoon, broad daylight with lots of people around. I can't imagine if the same thing had happened at night with no one else around and nowhere really to go for help.

lauriej
04-23-2012, 01:12 PM
Nice little dig at the family while giving his apology, but hang on a second. Didn't MOM acknowledge right after the bond hearing that he was aware that the family had indeed rejected their attempt at a meeting? I can't find the link to it.

I'm sure that MOM is every bit the great defense attorney as some say, but his style is becoming clearer, kind of passive/aggressive, using honey while sticking in the dagger.

JMHO

--i also find it really hard to believe that omara was unaware that the family had said they weren't interested in hearing from george---there were NUMEROUS articles about just that the day before the bond hearing-----none of omara's people had read any of them? uh huh.

--from the same video:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/23/11351669-zimmermans-attorney-apologizes-for-clients-apology-to-trayvon-martins-parents?lite

--reporter--kerry sanders: "It's possible police documents from the earliest stages of this investigation could be made public later today, perhaps revealing more about what happened that night in late february."

Phoenixfla
04-23-2012, 01:15 PM
Nor is there any evidence that indicates that Trayvon threw the first punch either.


~jmo~

Even if I stipulate that there was no evidence that TM threw the first punch either (which I dont necessarily agree with) how can a jury believe that beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ murdered TM?

PinkiGreen
04-23-2012, 01:18 PM
So TM's father didn't find out about the shooting till the next day?

Quote:
“I had gone out for dinner,” dad Tracy Martin told People magazine. “And when I got home, Trayvon wasn’t there. I tried calling his cellphone several times, and it went straight to voice mail.
“I figured that they had gone to the movies,” he said of Trayvon and his nephew. “So I laid down, thinking they would show up later.”
But Trayvon never did. The next morning, Tracy “started getting worried” when the nephew said he hadn’t seen Trayvon.

Sherbie
04-23-2012, 01:18 PM
This case is so troubling. We may never know for sure what really happened in the lead-up to the shooting. Trayvon's walking through the complex certainly wasn't against the law. Zimmerman's following TM wasn't against the law. Disregarding a dispatcher's statement that "We don't need you to [follow TM]" wasn't illegal, either.

Based only on the little we've learned so far, it doesn't appear either of the two committed a crime prior to the physical altercation. So at what point did one of them first commit a criminal act and who committed it? Did Zimmerman chase Trayvon down and start a physical fight with him? Did Trayvon get angry that Zimmerman was following him around and confront him, possibly socking him in the nose and starting the actual physical altercation?

I am heartbroken for Trayvon and his family, but I have to reserve judgment for now about whether Zimmerman is guilty of second degree murder.

There's no doubt this wouldn't have happened if GZ had not been carrying and if he'd just gone to his car and waited for police, but neither of those acts was illegal. The state is going to have to meet the burden of proof for M2. Can they definitively show that GZ instigated the physical contact and acted with implied malice/depraved indifference or disregard to human life? It's quite a hurdle, IMO.

We may not know much more til trial. Despite the Sunshine Law, I'm afraid there might be successful motions for some of the discovery in this case to be heavily redacted or sealed. I really don't see how anyone can be certain enough right now to make a judgment one way or the other (I'm talking strictly the legal points for M2, not the moral issues - they don't always mesh).

suzihawk
04-23-2012, 01:19 PM
And I'm just asking for a link to something that a previous poster asserted that I have not seen myself.

ETA: To me, the brother's presence in the home is extremely relevant because it might alter Martin's actions. If the brother was home, I could see him not wanting to go back, or possibly being locked out. If the brother was not home, Martin surely had a key or some other way to get into the house - I don't think he would have locked himself out. I'm not asking for anything regarding the brother other than evidence he was actually home at the time.

How do you know this?

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 01:19 PM
How do you know this?

"or some other way to get into the house. I don't think he would have locked himself out."

PinkiGreen
04-23-2012, 01:21 PM
Am I correct that TM was staying at his father's house?

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 01:23 PM
Am I correct that TM was staying at his father's house?
The father's fiancée's house. That's what I thought from the initial reports, but it turns out the father lives in Miami and goes up to visit his SO.

Emeralgem
04-23-2012, 01:24 PM
I never said that either. GZ's asserts that TM came and ambushed him, which means obviously that TM would not have gone straight home if that was the truth. Why is it not fair to track TM's movements as well as GZ's? They were both part of the incident that night.

Personally, I don't believe any of us here can count on anything of what GZ has asserted as being the truth..JMHO

Phoenixfla
04-23-2012, 01:24 PM
This case is so troubling. We may never know for sure what really happened in the lead-up to the shooting. Trayvon's walking through the complex certainly wasn't against the law. Zimmerman's following TM wasn't against the law. Disregarding a dispatcher's statement that "We don't need you to [follow TM]" wasn't illegal, either.

Based only on the little we've learned so far, it doesn't appear either of the two committed a crime prior to the physical altercation. So at what point did one of them first commit a criminal act and who committed it? Did Zimmerman chase Trayvon down and start a physical fight with him? Did Trayvon get angry that Zimmerman was following him around and confront him, possibly socking him in the nose and starting the actual physical altercation?

I am heartbroken for Trayvon and his family, but I have to reserve judgment for now about whether Zimmerman is guilty of second degree murder.

There's no doubt this wouldn't have happened if GZ had not been carrying and if he'd just gone to his car and waited for police, but neither of those acts was illegal. The state is going to have to meet the burden of proof for M2. Can they definitively show that GZ instigated the physical contact and acted with implied malice/depraved indifference or disregard to human life? It's quite a hurdle, IMO.

We may not know much more til trial. Despite the Sunshine Law, I'm afraid there might be successful motions for some of the discovery in this case to be heavily redacted or sealed. I really don't see how anyone can be certain enough right now to make a judgment one way or the other (I'm talking strictly the legal points for M2, not the moral issues - they don't always mesh).

Great post and ill just add that the media hearing to unseal the evidence is this Friday at 9 am. I think that based on the sunshine laws, any redactions would have to be for specific reasons.

Concerned Papa
04-23-2012, 01:26 PM
To be blunt, you really don't know what he did for that amount of time. You can speculate all you want to, but nothing implies there was constant movement for that entire amount of time. At the very least, he could have been pacing or walking in circles as he was talking to the dispatcher. The timelines not fitting whatever direction you perceive a person to continuously move to (or away from) doesn't mean much without all of the facts. You're assuming he never stopped walking or continuously walked in one path or route. That's a very big assumption.

Imagine my surprise with reading about MY perception of movements and failure to consider "walking around in circles" after reading this several weeks ago:


I'm saying he probably parked where the blue rectangle is located. He then went along the magenta path while talking to the dispatcher, and realized he lost Martin when he came to the perpendicular pathway. Since he believes Martin is going towards the back entrance, it would make sense that he would continue alone the same magenta pathway so he will have roughly the viewpoint notated by the yellow triangle. He would be able to see if Martin was running towards the back entrance, or off to another house... If he ran to another house, Zimmerman would be able to tell police approximately where he went - this may be the confusion about Zimmerman saying he was trying to get an address.

It was somewhere towards the end of this magenta pathway that I believe he was told to stop following Martin, and he did. He turned around and headed back towards his vehicle. This is a very reasonable distance to cover in that short amount of time, and I feel the scenario fits in well with the timeline.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7730658&postcount=263

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 01:26 PM
TM was a couple of condos from being home. Why would it matter who was home? He was clearly headed in that direction and there is nothing back there that a 17 year old would be interested in. All the stores are out the main street. Just because GZ thought TM was up to no good does not mean he was. GZ didn't know where TM was going that was his excuse. We all know where TM was going so we can't use the same excuse. There is no evidence that TM was going anywhere but home. It's not helping GZ's case because he has already given his statement and whatever he said is just not going,to fly with the authorities apparently. jmo
Huh?

I've never suggested he wasn't going towards his house initially. I was saying that it may be possible Martin was 1) locked out or 2) decided he shouldn't go home (after Zimmerman started following) if the brother was home. If the brother was not home, neither of these may apply.

Zak
04-23-2012, 01:29 PM
see you all later before I get timed out or banned...

this is really very frustrating to suggest the victim didn't try hard enough to get to his door...


shame on those who think this teen is the problem and not GZ, who isn't even close to fulfilling his dreams at 29 y/o....that tells alot about a guy who doens't have his career set, yet...:banghead:

BBM

Not sure why this is a problem to you. Some people take longer to decide on a career after having tried various jobs. My son just turned 28 and has gone to college off and on for years. He went full time for several years while it was on my dime, sat out for two years while he worked, changed majors and then part time the rest. He is close to a degree, but when you have to work your way through college its not an easy task. I, for one, give GZ credit for going back to school to not only change careers, but better himself.

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 01:29 PM
Imagine my surprise with reading about MY perception of movements and failure to consider "walking around in circles" after reading this several weeks ago:
I never speculated on what he did after he reached the end of the path (other than the general statement he started to return his car). I simply said that him reaching the end of the path fits well within the timeline of him telling the dispatcher he won't follow anymore. If it came across differently to you, my apologies.

Elley Mae
04-23-2012, 01:29 PM
So...TM's dad and SO go to movie, come home to an empty house, and don't notice a crime scene close to their home? How the heck long were they gone? And where did the nephew go?

iirc the dad had not seem Trayvon since the evening before.

suzihawk
04-23-2012, 01:32 PM
So TM's father didn't find out about the shooting till the next day?

Quote:
“I had gone out for dinner,” dad Tracy Martin told People magazine. “And when I got home, Trayvon wasn’t there. I tried calling his cellphone several times, and it went straight to voice mail.
“I figured that they had gone to the movies,” he said of Trayvon and his nephew. “So I laid down, thinking they would show up later.”
But Trayvon never did. The next morning, Tracy “started getting worried” when the nephew said he hadn’t seen Trayvon.

Yeah, it's pretty amazing that the SPD was content to let this young black man lie in the morgue as a 'John Doe', not even bothering to try to find out his identity, much less contact his next of kin. Isn't it?

PinkiGreen
04-23-2012, 01:32 PM
iirc the dad had not seem Trayvon since the evening before.

The evening before he was shot?

So then who did he "beg" to go out for Skittles?

Phoenixfla
04-23-2012, 01:34 PM
Anyone know who it was that picked up GZ from the jail?

Phoenixfla
04-23-2012, 01:35 PM
Yeah, it's pretty amazing that the SPD was content to let this young black man lie in the morgue as a 'John Doe', not even bothering to try to find out his identity, much less contact his next of kin. Isn't it?

When did they identify him?

PinkiGreen
04-23-2012, 01:36 PM
Yeah, it's pretty amazing that the SPD was content to let this young black man lie in the morgue as a 'John Doe', not even bothering to try to find out his identity, much less contact his next of kin. Isn't it?

I find it even more amazing that a neighbor didnt say something to them or that they saw some sort of crime scene upon arriving home. Were they new to the community? jmo

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 01:37 PM
Yeah, it's pretty amazing that the SPD was content to let this young black man lie in the morgue as a 'John Doe', not even bothering to try to find out his identity, much less contact his next of kin. Isn't it?
Do you have a source for this?

IIRC, The father said they came to him the next morning (as in less than 9 hours after they left the scene).

annalia
04-23-2012, 01:38 PM
The evening before he was shot?

So then who did he "beg" to go out for Skittles?

No, not from the evening before he was shot.

Steft50
04-23-2012, 01:40 PM
I find it even more amazing that a neighbor didnt say something to them or that they saw some sort of crime scene upon arriving home. Were they new to the community? jmo

I think I remember that the crime scene had been cleared and everyone was gone by the time Mr Martin and his g/f returned home around 11ish.

Dr.Fessel
04-23-2012, 01:40 PM
To be blunt, you really don't know what he did for that amount of time. You can speculate all you want to, but nothing implies there was constant movement for that entire amount of time. At the very least, he could have been pacing or walking in circles as he was talking to the dispatcher. The timelines not fitting whatever direction you perceive a person to continuously move to (or away from) doesn't mean much without all of the facts. You're assuming he never stopped walking or continuously walked in one path or route. That's a very big assumption.

Well I am sure George told the detectives all about those circles, pacing or handstands he was doing while searching for that address. Yet they still say that dog don't hunt.

suzihawk
04-23-2012, 01:42 PM
When did they identify him?

Tracy Martin called the police department himself the next morning to file a missing persons report. The SPD drove to his home and showed him the gruesome pictures of his dead child for identification purposes.

lauriej
04-23-2012, 01:43 PM
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/sources-sanford-police-chief-resign/nMf7R/

April 23, 2012

Sources: Sanford police chief to resign

cityslick
04-23-2012, 01:44 PM
Personally, I don't believe any of us here can count on anything of what GZ has asserted as being the truth..JMHO

That's why we sleuth things out here.

annalia
04-23-2012, 01:45 PM
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/sources-sanford-police-chief-resign/nMf7R/

April 23, 2012

Sources: Sanford police chief to resign

Very interesting, wonder what caused him to officially resign.

JMHO

suzihawk
04-23-2012, 01:46 PM
I find it even more amazing that a neighbor didnt say something to them or that they saw some sort of crime scene upon arriving home. Were they new to the community? jmo

Trayvon was visiting his father at the community. There was no reason for the neighbors to know who he was.

Amazingly enough, the entire crime was all cleaned up by the time Mr. Martin and his fiance returned home from dinner. Some suggested that the (SPD) didn't want to work in the rain. Yeah, really!

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 01:47 PM
Well I am sure George told the detectives all about those circles, pacing or handstands he was doing while searching for that address. Yet they still say that dog don't hunt.
I'm sure he gave a play-by-play of what happened, multiple times.

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 01:47 PM
Trayvon was visiting his father at the community. There was no reason for the neighbors to know who he was.

Amazingly enough, the entire crime was all cleaned up by the time Mr. Martin and his fiance returned home from dinner. Some suggested that the (SPD) didn't want to work in the rain. Yeah, really!
Another poster just suggested the family claims they returned at 10:30, while local news was on the still-active scene at 11.

Aedrys
04-23-2012, 01:48 PM
Strange huh. The crime scene of a homicide was just 200 feet away from their apartment, and was only ~3.5 hours old at the time the parents returned (10:30).



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html

The local 11PM news showed that there was still an active crime scene at the time.

This is being really insensitive. I can't believe the dad is being questioned for not noticing a crime scene. It's not like it was right in his backyard, right behind his house. He probably did see lights and sirens, but why would his first thought be that something happened to his son? They were probably tired, made assumptions about where the kids were, and just went to bed. That is not unreasonable. I don't think they were expecting that Trayvon had been shot and was dead. Good Lord. These people are VICTIMS. Let's treat them as such instead of bashing them because they didn't know Trayvon was dead seconds after they got home.

cityslick
04-23-2012, 01:49 PM
Very interesting, wonder what caused him to officially resign.

JMHO

This is the guy who got the no confidence vote?

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 01:50 PM
This is being really insensitive. I can't believe the dad is being questioned for not noticing a crime scene. It's not like it was right in his backyard, right behind his house. He probably did see lights and sirens, but why would his first thought be that something happened to his son? They were probably tired, made assumptions about where the kids were, and just went to bed. That is not unreasonable. I don't think they were expecting that Trayvon had been shot and was dead. Good Lord. These people are VICTIMS. Let's treat them as such instead of bashing them because they didn't know Trayvon was dead seconds after they got home.
Well, on the flip side, you have people claiming that the police had wrapped up the scene by the time they got home.

Dr.Fessel
04-23-2012, 01:51 PM
Very interesting, wonder what caused him to officially resign.

JMHO

For him to give up that cushy high paying job I would almost bet it means charges are coming. IMO

Adrienne37
04-23-2012, 01:51 PM
Very interesting, wonder what caused him to officially resign.

JMHO

Just wondering if it could have something to do with an FDLE investigation or Department of Justice investigation or may be it could have something to do with both??


~jmo~

Adrienne37
04-23-2012, 01:53 PM
Judge unseals file in Trayvon Martin murder case
Court unseals some records hours after George Zimmerman released on bond with GPS tracker early Monday.

George Zimmerman was released early Monday morning from the Seminole County jail. And hours later, the judge in the case unsealed the court file, making a small portion of information about the case public.

Still, the bulk of information about the case – prosecution records – remain a secret.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-released-bail-20120423,0,6166335.story

HiHater
04-23-2012, 01:53 PM
Would the article you reference not be one of the initial reports, and therefore not what I'm talking about?

Maybe you should define exactly what you consider to be "initial." The shooting happened Feb 6, was mainstream about March 8, and I just linked you to March 27...


Is this recent and/or mainstream enough for you?

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/geraldo/index.html#/v/1543560623001/what-really-happened-the-night-trayvon-martin-died/?playlist_id=86916

kimpage
04-23-2012, 01:53 PM
Ok from what i read the SPD had cleared the crime scene before Tracy Martin and his fiance got home.....IMHO JMHO It really is sickening seeing people attack the true victims in this case and tells me the mindset of those indivuals..IMHO JMHO and all that Now i am time outing myself:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::ban ghead:

Adrienne37
04-23-2012, 01:54 PM
From the above article....

Zimmerman left the jail around midnight with his bondsman, Michael Smith of Magic Bail Bonds, who escorted Zimmerman to the BMW then drove away.

Court records show Zimmerman's arraignment was moved up to May 8, a hearing during which a defendant formally enters a plea. That, though, was made moot by his lawyer filing a written not guilty plea several days ago
Those newly-released court records also reveal that prosecutors didn't want Zimmerman wearing a suit – civilian clothes of any kind – at Friday's bond hearing. That, wrote Bernie de la Rionda, was an unwarranted attempt to polish Zimmerman's media image.

The judge said yes to the suit, and the defendant wore an over-sized blue one, but the judge also ordered him to wear shackles, another rule O'Mara had asked the judge to relax.



~jmo~

fran
04-23-2012, 01:54 PM
Perhaps the g/f and dad parked the car and entered the residence on the opposite side of the building from where the crime scene was. They may not have heard anything by then and no one said anything to them.

I've had emergency fire and rescue at my house and my next door neighbor didn't even hear anything. The main living area is on the opposite side of the house.

Just an idea,
fran

HiHater
04-23-2012, 01:54 PM
For him to give up that cushy high paying job I would almost bet it means charges are coming. IMO

against the former Chief? :what:

tpgks
04-23-2012, 01:54 PM
Another poster just suggested the family claims they returned at 10:30, while local news was on the still-active scene at 11.

I am trying to find the video. It was the Fox Orlando nightly news from the night that Trayvon was shot.

Found it. Investigators are clearly still on scene at 10:30PM...crime scene tape is still up.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/local/022612-Deadly-shooting-in-Sanford

Emeralgem
04-23-2012, 01:55 PM
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/sources-sanford-police-chief-resign/nMf7R/

April 23, 2012

Sources: Sanford police chief to resign

IMHO..Too bad he resigned..He needed to be fired.JMHO

BetteDavisEyes
04-23-2012, 01:56 PM
My local TV station of choice, WDIV, Channel 4, Detroit is awesome about sending breaking news email alerts :)

==============================
National Breaking News
==============================

Source says Sanford police chief to resign

Chief Bill Lee of the Sanford Police Department in Florida plans to resign, a
city official familiar with the matter tells CNN.

MORE DETAILS: <http://www.clickondetroit.com/tu/678ZErXc4.html>

Aedrys
04-23-2012, 01:57 PM
From the above article....

Zimmerman left the jail around midnight with his bondsman, Michael Smith of Magic Bail Bonds, who escorted Zimmerman to the BMW then drove away.

Court records show Zimmerman's arraignment was moved up to May 8, a hearing during which a defendant formally enters a plea. That, though, was made moot by his lawyer filing a written not guilty plea several days ago
Those newly-released court records also reveal that prosecutors didn't want Zimmerman wearing a suit – civilian clothes of any kind – at Friday's bond hearing. That, wrote Bernie de la Rionda, was an unwarranted attempt to polish Zimmerman's media image.

The judge said yes to the suit, and the defendant wore an over-sized blue one, but the judge also ordered him to wear shackles, another rule O'Mara had asked the judge to relax.



~jmo~

Magic Bail Bonds...I nearly spit out my drink when I read that. :floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh: That is just the perfect name for the company bonding out GZ.

suzihawk
04-23-2012, 01:57 PM
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/sources-sanford-police-chief-resign/nMf7R/

April 23, 2012

Sources: Sanford police chief to resign

:yesss: They're dropping like flies! :hills:

I hope they don't think that's going to make them immune from investigation.

annalia
04-23-2012, 01:58 PM
This is the guy who got the no confidence vote?

Yes, but initially he said that he was just stepping aside temporarily, just wondering why he's now officially resigning.

JMHO

Phoenixfla
04-23-2012, 01:59 PM
Tracy Martin called the police department himself the next morning to file a missing persons report. The SPD drove to his home and showed him the gruesome pictures of his dead child for identification purposes.

Ok, then I guess I dont understand when you say this:


Yeah, it's pretty amazing that the SPD was content to let this young black man lie in the morgue as a 'John Doe', not even bothering to try to find out his identity, much less contact his next of kin. Isn't it?

1. What could they have done differently to find out his identity? Even if he did have ID it would have listed his address in Miami.
2. If they did not know TM's identity, how could they have called his next of kin?

Adrienne37
04-23-2012, 01:59 PM
Magic Bail Bonds...I nearly spit out my drink when I read that. :floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh: That is just the perfect name for the company bonding out GZ.

They better hope they can pull off magic if he goes missing!! LOL! :floorlaugh:


~jmo~

LolaMoon08
04-23-2012, 02:01 PM
Alabama Teen shot in head during robbery attempt - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

I just seen this thread. A 17-year-old girl was shot in the head by two men shooting at burglars, apparently she was one of the burglars, and I just found that some of the differences of opinions were interesting and although it does not match the circumstances surrounding Trayvon's death as Trayvon was not commiting a crime when GZ took it upon himself to follow and, IMO, confront Trayvon, the same "self-defense" issue is being debated, although very mildly compared to this case.

Tragically, I think that it's a good case to really look at the differences when it comes defending yourself or your property and what happened with Trayvon.

MOO

MaryAnn
04-23-2012, 02:01 PM
I think I remember that the crime scene had been cleared and everyone was gone by the time Mr Martin and his g/f returned home around 11ish.

I'm still in shock how quickly they investigated the crime scene. Plus didn't they give Trayvon a "drug test" right there on the spot?

LolaMoon08
04-23-2012, 02:02 PM
My local TV station of choice, WDIV, Channel 4, Detroit is awesome about sending breaking news email alerts :)

==============================
National Breaking News
==============================

Source says Sanford police chief to resign

Chief Bill Lee of the Sanford Police Department in Florida plans to resign, a
city official familiar with the matter tells CNN.

MORE DETAILS: <http://www.clickondetroit.com/tu/678ZErXc4.html>

That's good news!! Wonder if he was "forced" to resign or if he is doing it on his own??

suzihawk
04-23-2012, 02:02 PM
This is being really insensitive. I can't believe the dad is being questioned for not noticing a crime scene. It's not like it was right in his backyard, right behind his house. He probably did see lights and sirens, but why would his first thought be that something happened to his son? They were probably tired, made assumptions about where the kids were, and just went to bed. That is not unreasonable. I don't think they were expecting that Trayvon had been shot and was dead. Good Lord. These people are VICTIMS. Let's treat them as such instead of bashing them because they didn't know Trayvon was dead seconds after they got home.

The beating up on the victim and family on this forum is really getting tiresome.

grandmaj
04-23-2012, 02:04 PM
MIAMI (AP) – Wearing a hoodie. Listening to music and talking on his cellphone. Picking up Skittles for his soon-to-be stepbrother. Friends say that's how they would have imagined 17-year-old Trayvon Martin on a Sunday afternoon.


OK I'm going to say this and then this conversation ends because we do not sleuth children.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-03-24/trayvon-martin-friends/53744670/1

Donjeta
04-23-2012, 02:05 PM
And I'm just asking for a link to something that a previous poster asserted that I have not seen myself.

ETA: To me, the brother's presence in the home is extremely relevant because it might alter Martin's actions. If the brother was home, I could see him not wanting to go back, or possibly being locked out. If the brother was not home, Martin surely had a key or some other way to get into the house - I don't think he would have locked himself out. I'm not asking for anything regarding the brother other than evidence he was actually home at the time.

I could see a young teenage boy possibly going out with his friends and not thinking about whether or not another person who went out has a key or not.


They were clearly not home watching the all-star game. Change number one.

The father came home and never mentioned anything about the brother. While not a change, one can draw implications from it.

Martin apparently went to the store to get out of the house, not to buy the brother Skittles, change number two.

How many times does the story have to change for it to satisfy your requirements?

I don't really consider either one of these examples a change. A kid might be at home watching an all star game at one point of the evening and later on they may go out and not be at home when the parents arrive.

As for whether the reason for leaving is to get out of the house or to buy Skittles, it could easily be both at the same time. I do that all the time. I tell the kids I need to buy milk and bread or something, and I do, but the trip to the store is also a welcome little break.

Adrienne37
04-23-2012, 02:06 PM
MIAMI (AP) – Wearing a hoodie. Listening to music and talking on his cellphone. Picking up Skittles for his soon-to-be stepbrother. Friends say that's how they would have imagined 17-year-old Trayvon Martin on a Sunday afternoon.


OK I'm going to say this and then this conversation ends because we do not sleuth children.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-03-24/trayvon-martin-friends/53744670/1

Thank you grandmaj.

Concerned Papa
04-23-2012, 02:06 PM
To be blunt, you really don't know what he did for that amount of time. You can speculate all you want to, but nothing implies there was constant movement for that entire amount of time. At the very least, he could have been pacing or walking in circles as he was talking to the dispatcher. The timelines not fitting whatever direction you perceive a person to continuously move to (or away from) doesn't mean much without all of the facts. You're assuming he never stopped walking or continuously walked in one path or route. That's a very big assumption.


I never speculated on what he did after he reached the end of the path (other than the general statement he started to return his car). I simply said that him reaching the end of the path fits well within the timeline of him telling the dispatcher he won't follow anymore. If it came across differently to you, my apologies.

Oh no, apologies are not necessary. I'm simply trying to understand how someone who was "jogging", "walking hurriedly", or "hustling" a few weeks ago is now "walking around in circles" or "pacing" along the same "very reasonable distance to cover" or "little section of path"


It occurred to me that he lost sight of Martin, and may have actually continued onto the other street when dispatch then told him to stop. This would align perfectly with everything. He was apparently jogging or walking hurriedly, and I don't think it would have taken much time to cover that little section of path. It's very likely he pulled up right next to the path, got out, and then jogged/hustled down it. When he didn't see Martin, he kept going hoping to see him cut through somewhere (get the address of where the individual was headed, maybe?) when dispatch told him to stop. He then headed back to his vehicle.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7730402&postcount=193

Steft50
04-23-2012, 02:06 PM
I'm still in shock how quickly they investigated the crime scene. Plus didn't they give Trayvon a "drug test" right there on the spot?

I was surprised when I'd heard that as well. If it's not true I'd appreciate knowing where to find and read the actual time the scene was completed. (I can't watch videos cuz my internet speed stinks)

I don't know about drug testing Trayvon at the scene, but I have no doubt they did so as a normal part of the death investigation that is done during autopsy.

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 02:07 PM
I could see a young teenage boy possibly going out with his friends and not thinking about whether or not another person who went out has a key or not.



I don't really consider either one of these examples a change. A kid might be at home watching an all star game at one point of the evening and later on they may go out and not be at home when the parents arrive.

As for whether the reason for leaving is to get out of the house or to buy Skittles, it could easily be both at the same time. I do that all the time. I tell the kids I need to buy milk and bread or something, and I do, but the trip to the store is also a welcome little break.
I'll just address your first point before it's dropped. The All-Star Game hadn't even started yet. That's how the story changed.

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 02:08 PM
I'm still in shock how quickly they investigated the crime scene. Plus didn't they give Trayvon a "drug test" right there on the spot?

I believe the "drug test" that has been referred to is the toxicology lab conducted at autopsy, which is allegedly standard procedure.

kimpage
04-23-2012, 02:10 PM
I'll just address your first point before it's dropped. The All-Star Game hadn't even started yet. That's how the story changed.
They were watching the pre-game show..The story did not change some reporters mispoke..Do not twist it to say story changed....IMHO JMHO and all that

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 02:10 PM
Oh no, apologies are not necessary. I'm simply trying to understand how someone who was "jogging", "walking hurriedly", or "hustling" a few weeks ago is now "walking around in circles" or "pacing" along the same "very reasonable distance to cover" or "little section of path"
On the way there is not the same as on the way back. I never addressed the time after he got to that point. Whether he stood at the end and watched or paced around or walked in circles or did laps around the buildings, I don't know. And I've never claimed to know. I've simply said it was possible, given the timings, that he walked to the end of that path when he told the dispatcher he'd stop following.

Adrienne37
04-23-2012, 02:11 PM
The game might not have started but I'm sure the pregame coverage had already started especially considering the game was being played in Orlando. Tipoff for the game was at at 7 pm. Again, there is absolutely no relevance in this discussion whatsoever.

http://www.nba.com/allstar2012/
Sunday, February 26, 2012
7:00pm EST
Amway Center

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 02:11 PM
They were watching the pre-game show..The story did not change some reporters mispoke..Do not twist it to say story changed....IMHO JMHO and all that
Then a lot of reporters misspoke. JMO

Donjeta
04-23-2012, 02:11 PM
I'll just address your first point before it's dropped. The All-Star Game hadn't even started yet. That's how the story changed.

Watching the pre-game coverage maybe?

suzihawk
04-23-2012, 02:11 PM
From the above article....

Zimmerman left the jail around midnight with his bondsman, Michael Smith of Magic Bail Bonds, who escorted Zimmerman to the BMW then drove away.

Court records show Zimmerman's arraignment was moved up to May 8, a hearing during which a defendant formally enters a plea. That, though, was made moot by his lawyer filing a written not guilty plea several days ago
Those newly-released court records also reveal that prosecutors didn't want Zimmerman wearing a suit – civilian clothes of any kind – at Friday's bond hearing. That, wrote Bernie de la Rionda, was an unwarranted attempt to polish Zimmerman's media image.

The judge said yes to the suit, and the defendant wore an over-sized blue one, but the judge also ordered him to wear shackles, another rule O'Mara had asked the judge to relax.



~jmo~

My confidence and respect for this Judge keeps getting lower. I don't know why he allowed that blindsiding of the prosecution. He just as easily could have called for another hearing to address the issues that had no place at a bond hearing. IMO IMO IMO ( so no one ridiculously requests a link)

LambChop
04-23-2012, 02:14 PM
Huh?

I've never suggested he wasn't going towards his house initially. I was saying that it may be possible Martin was 1) locked out or 2) decided he shouldn't go home (after Zimmerman started following) if the brother was home. If the brother was not home, neither of these may apply.

I think if we continue on this path we are going too deep into the fact that the woman's son was home alone at that point and maybe this mom does want want that kind of information plastered all over forums. I know I would not. There is no proof TM was locked out, there is no proof he was going anywhere but home. Whatever way the gf secures her home seems like we are headed into an area where we have no business being. TM was headde home or he would not have been that close to his destination. LE seems to believe TM was just on his way home. jmo

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 02:15 PM
My confidence and respect for this Judge keeps getting lower. I don't know why he allowed that blindsiding of the prosecution. He just as easily could have called for another hearing to address the issues that had no place at a bond hearing. IMO IMO IMO ( so no one ridiculously requests a link)
How is it blindsiding of the prosecution? It was an Arthur hearing. That's what happens. If the state came unprepared, that was their own fault.

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 02:15 PM
I think if we continue on this path we are going too deep into the fact that the woman's son was home alone at that point and maybe this mom does want want that kind of information plastered all over forums. I know I would not. There is no proof TM was locked out, there is no proof he was going anywhere but home. Whatever way the gf secures her home seems like we are headed into an area where we have no business being. TM was headde home or he would not have been that close to his destination. LE seems to believe TM was just on his way home. jmo
There have been interviews with the son in which he says he was home. That's enough for me.

kimpage
04-23-2012, 02:16 PM
Seems to me there's a lot of grasping at straws going on around here and attempts to make any and every thing the Martin family or associates do a crime. Obviously in order to support Zimmerman's stance you have to blame the victim and his family. Pretty disgusting if you ask me.



~jmo~
I 100% Agree IMHO

Gin
04-23-2012, 02:16 PM
Then a lot of reporters misspoke. JMO

Lots of folks watch pre-game shows before athletic events. It's pretty normal. And when someone talks about watching a big game...they usually don't say, first I watched the pre-game, then I watched the game, then I watched the post-game.

Most folks will just say, "I watched the game."

I don't mind explaining this. I hope this helps avoid more unnecessary "confusion" about sports semantics.

LolaMoon08
04-23-2012, 02:16 PM
There have been interviews with the son in which he says he was home. That's enough for me.

The fiance's son has been interviewed?

suzihawk
04-23-2012, 02:17 PM
Ok, then I guess I dont understand when you say this:



1. What could they have done differently to find out his identity? Even if he did have ID it would have listed his address in Miami.
2. If they did not know TM's identity, how could they have called his next of kin?

Call some of the contacts on his phone? There was a call to TM's phone from the SPD. I don't recall the times, though. And I can't look up the links at the moment so... IMO

Phoenixfla
04-23-2012, 02:17 PM
My confidence and respect for this Judge keeps getting lower. I don't know why he allowed that blindsiding of the prosecution. He just as easily could have called for another hearing to address the issues that had no place at a bond hearing. IMO IMO IMO ( so no one ridiculously requests a link)

The bond is based on (in addition to other criteria) the crime that is alleged to have been committed. The defense attorney has every right to go through the probable cause affidavit and point out inconsistencies to the judge so that the judge can determine the bail amount that would be appropriate.

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 02:17 PM
The fiance's son has been interviewed?

Yes. HiHater posted a link to the Geraldo interview.

rossva
04-23-2012, 02:18 PM
I believe the original reports were "Trayvon was watching NBA All Star coverage", not the actual NBA All Star Game. Again, I want to point out to non Orlando locals, the NBA All Star Game was held in ORLANDO, and the local TV channels had been covering the NBA All Star virtually for the entire week preceding that evening, especially the events on that day.




I'll just address your first point before it's dropped. The All-Star Game hadn't even started yet. That's how the story changed.

tehcloser
04-23-2012, 02:18 PM
There have been interviews with the son in which he says he was home. That's enough for me.

Then why was it brought up to start with? :banghead:

LolaMoon08
04-23-2012, 02:18 PM
Lots of folks watch pre-game shows before athletic events. It's pretty normal. And when someone talks about watching a big game...they usually don't say, first I watched the pre-game, then I watched the game, then I watched the post-game.

Most folks will just say, "I watched the game."

Exactly! Like on Thursday, the NFL Draft with be televised, but tons of pre-game programs will be on. I wouldn't say "Yeah, I'm watching the pre-draft show" I'd say "I'm watching the draft."

Adrienne37
04-23-2012, 02:19 PM
There have been interviews with the son in which he says he was home. That's enough for me.

So Tracy's fiance's son has been interviewed by the media before?

suzihawk
04-23-2012, 02:19 PM
I'm still in shock how quickly they investigated the crime scene. Plus didn't they give Trayvon a "drug test" right there on the spot?

Yup. And they conveniently didn't do one on Zimmerman. Even though they had all the time in the world to do that one.

LolaMoon08
04-23-2012, 02:19 PM
Yes. HiHater posted a link to the Geraldo interview.

HiHater -- could you please post the link again where Tracy's fiance's son talked with Geraldo?

Thanks!

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 02:19 PM
Call some of the contacts on his phone? There was a call to TM's phone from the SPD. I don't recall the times, though. And I can't look up the links at the moment so... IMO
And if the phone was locked? It looks like SPD dialed 911 from the phone to get the number (implying it was locked), and then verified the number by calling it. This was on or around March 2, iirc. It might have been an effort to get a subpoena for the records. That night, I'm not sure there was much they could have done about it.

Adrienne37
04-23-2012, 02:20 PM
And if the phone was locked? It looks like SPD dialed 911 from the phone to get the number (implying it was locked), and then verified the number by calling it. This was on or around March 2, iirc. It might have been an effort to get a subpoena for the records. That night, I'm not sure there was much they could have done about it.

So it took SPD from 02/26/2012 to 03/02/2012 to decide to look at the phone?

tpgks
04-23-2012, 02:20 PM
The game might not have started but I'm sure the pregame coverage had already started especially considering the game was being played in Orlando. Tipoff for the game was at at 7 pm. Again, there is absolutely no relevance in this discussion whatsoever.

http://www.nba.com/allstar2012/
Sunday, February 26, 2012
7:00pm EST
Amway Center

Wrong. Tip time was at 7:37 eastern.

http://www.nba.com/allstar/2012/full-event-schedule/index.html

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 02:21 PM
Then why was it brought up to start with? :banghead:
Because I was not aware of this interview until ~25 minutes ago when HiHater posted it?

Adrienne37
04-23-2012, 02:21 PM
Then why was it brought up to start with? :banghead:

I'm with you teh!

Dr.Fessel
04-23-2012, 02:21 PM
Strange huh. The crime scene of a homicide was just 200 feet away from their apartment, and was only ~3.5 hours old at the time the parents returned (10:30).



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html

The local 11PM news showed that there was still an active crime scene at the time.

Strange? How so if they came in the closest gate to their home and parked in front? Why should they see or hear anything through 2 other separate apartment buildings besides their own?

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 02:22 PM
So Tracy's fiance's son has been interviewed by the media before?
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #31

LambChop
04-23-2012, 02:22 PM
Watching the pre-game coverage maybe?

I thought I read TM went to the store to get something so they could watch the game together and that was why he came right back. We don't even know if TM walked down to the store. His father could have dropped him off on their way out to dinner. If he was planning on watching the game with the brother he would have been interested in getting right back. jmo

Adrienne37
04-23-2012, 02:23 PM
Wrong. Tip time was at 7:37 eastern.

http://www.nba.com/allstar/2012/full-event-schedule/index.html

Whatever, it's still irrelevant to the discussion. Just as has been pointed out, there was a pregame show that was televised that they could have been watching. Yet again, just more smoke and mirrors < mod snip >


eta: VICTIM'S


~jmo~

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 02:23 PM
So it took SPD from 02/26/2012 to 03/02/2012 to decide to look at the phone?
You'd have to call up SPD and ask them. I'm not their spokesperson. That's just what the call logs shows, and a possible inference from those logs.

kimpage
04-23-2012, 02:24 PM
Wrong. Tip time was at 7:37 eastern.

http://www.nba.com/allstar/2012/full-event-schedule/index.html
No she was right TM was watcing the pre-game show as has been reported..IMHO JMHO and all that

Adrienne37
04-23-2012, 02:25 PM
You'd have to call up SPD and ask them. I'm not their spokesperson. That's just what the call logs shows, and a possible inference from those logs.

Yea, they'd probably just lie about it the same as with everything else on this case.



~jmo~

mercuriod
04-23-2012, 02:25 PM
So TM's father didn't find out about the shooting till the next day?

Quote:
“I had gone out for dinner,” dad Tracy Martin told People magazine. “And when I got home, Trayvon wasn’t there. I tried calling his cellphone several times, and it went straight to voice mail.
“I figured that they had gone to the movies,” he said of Trayvon and his nephew. “So I laid down, thinking they would show up later.”
But Trayvon never did. The next morning, Tracy “started getting worried” when the nephew said he hadn’t seen Trayvon.

That is correct.

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 02:26 PM
Yea, they'd probably just lie about it the same as with everything else on this case.



~jmo~

Do you have a source for where SPD has lied about anything regarding the case?

Phoenixfla
04-23-2012, 02:26 PM
Call some of the contacts on his phone? There was a call to TM's phone from the SPD. I don't recall the times, though. And I can't look up the links at the moment so... IMO

Perhaps the phone needed a passcode to unlock it for use?

mercuriod
04-23-2012, 02:27 PM
Am I correct that TM was staying at his father's house?

No he was staying with his father at his fathers girlfriends house.

LambChop
04-23-2012, 02:27 PM
There have been interviews with the son in which he says he was home. That's enough for me.

Then I guess there is no reason to further discuss it since it has been confirmed and TM did not need a key. jmo

Donjeta
04-23-2012, 02:28 PM
Would they have needed a warrant to go through TM's phone or is it part of routine CSI to check the victim's phone?

HiHater
04-23-2012, 02:29 PM
HiHater -- could you please post the link again where Tracy's fiance's son talked with Geraldo?

Thanks!

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/geraldo/index.html#/v/1543560623001/what-really-happened-the-night-trayvon-martin-died/?playlist_id=86916

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 02:30 PM
Then I guess there is no reason to further discuss it since it has been confirmed and TM did not need a key. jmo

I've let it go. That hasn't stopped others from responding, though.

LambChop
04-23-2012, 02:30 PM
Perhaps the phone needed a passcode to unlock it for use?

Early on it was reported that the phone was locked and LE needed the password to get into the phone. Could the carrier provide that to him? I'm thinking how would the parents know what his password was? jmo

HiHater
04-23-2012, 02:30 PM
And if the phone was locked? It looks like SPD dialed 911 from the phone to get the number (implying it was locked), and then verified the number by calling it. This was on or around March 2, iirc. It might have been an effort to get a subpoena for the records. That night, I'm not sure there was much they could have done about it.

They could have done the same thing you're saying they did on March 2, yeah?

LolaMoon08
04-23-2012, 02:30 PM
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #31 (http://websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7822858&postcount=128)

That was heartbreaking!

What is the debate again??

Gin
04-23-2012, 02:31 PM
Wrong. Tip time was at 7:37 eastern.

http://www.nba.com/allstar/2012/full-event-schedule/index.html

People who like sports...like sports. They watch the pre-game, they may flip over to additional ESPN channels, catch more coverage/analysis, come back at tip off....enjoy the game, enjoy the post-game and so on.


It's not like watching The local TV news that comes on at promptly at 6:00pm everyday, and is done and over at 6:30pm sharp. :wink:

LambChop
04-23-2012, 02:31 PM
I've let it go. That hasn't stopped others from responding, though.

Me, too. lol

PinkiGreen
04-23-2012, 02:31 PM
Yea, they'd probably just lie about it the same as with everything else on this case.



~jmo~

I do not understand why we are to think that all these people are lying to cover up for GZ. Why would they care? Nobody knows what happened in the last minutes, so to assume that there is only one victim in this case is pointless to me. All we have right now is speculation.

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 02:32 PM
They could have done the same thing you're saying they did on March 2, yeah?

What would the phone number have gleaned on a Sunday night? They would have had to at least wait until the next day to submit a subpoena to T-Mobile to get records of/determine the owner.

HiHater
04-23-2012, 02:32 PM
Do you have a source for where SPD has lied about anything regarding the case?

I think all of the documents regarding Trayvon have been removed from their website. But SPD would be the source...


:floorlaugh:

JMO MOO IMO

kimpage
04-23-2012, 02:34 PM
I do not understand why we are to think that all these people are lying to cover up for GZ. Why would they care? Nobody knows what happened in the last minutes, so to assume that there is only one victim in this case is pointless to me. All we have right now is speculation.
Well one would think the VICTIM is the one that was SHOT DEAD....not the one who SHOT himwhen he did not deserve to be shot.....IMHO JMHO and all that

HiHater
04-23-2012, 02:34 PM
Would they have needed a warrant to go through TM's phone or is it part of routine CSI to check the victim's phone?

I don't think a warrant would be necessary, any more than a warrant would have been necessary to look in his pockets/wallet for an ID...

That's JMO though, it's not clear to me. If they did need a warrant, I don't see any reason why they could not have gotten one that night or early the next morning.

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 02:35 PM
I think all of the documents regarding Trayvon have been removed from their website. But SPD would be the source...


:floorlaugh:

JMO MOO IMO

What documents regarding Trayvon? The police report? I don't remember anything specifically about him other than the FAQ and the police report from that night being posted. Perhaps you can specifically illustrate what you're talking about?

LolaMoon08
04-23-2012, 02:35 PM
I do not understand why we are to think that all these people are lying to cover up for GZ. Why would they care? Nobody knows what happened in the last minutes, so to assume that there is only one victim in this case is pointless to me. All we have right now is speculation.

As of right now, there is only one victim in this case. Right now, George is an accused murderer. He's been charged with murder.

MOO

BetteDavisEyes
04-23-2012, 02:36 PM
Officials to vote on Sanford chief's resignation
By MIKE SCHNEIDER, AP
23 minutes ago

ORLANDO, Fla. — The Sanford city commission will vote to approve the resignation of the police chief harshly criticized for his handling of the Trayvon Martin case.

The commissioners said in a news release Monday that they would vote at a meeting later in the day to approve the resignation of Bill Lee.

Police did not initially charge 28-year-old George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer who claimed he shot the 17-year-old Martin in self-defense.

Florida law gives people broad leeway to use lethal force if they believe their lives are in grave danger. The Feb. 26 shooting sparked protests nationwide, as well as debates about the laws and race. Martin was black; Zimmerman is the son of a white father and Hispanic mother...

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20120421/US.Neighborhood.Watch/

LC446
04-23-2012, 02:36 PM
I do not understand why we are to think that all these people are lying to cover up for GZ. Why would they care? Nobody knows what happened in the last minutes, so to assume that there is only one victim in this case is pointless to me. All we have right now is speculation.

You might want to go back and read some of the previous threads. There was lots of discussion about who was the victim and such early on. But once GZ was charged it was indicated that Trayvon was the victim and was to be treated as such.

HiHater
04-23-2012, 02:36 PM
What would the phone number have gleaned on a Sunday night? They would have had to at least wait until the next day to submit a subpoena to T-Mobile to get records of/determine the owner.

Well, assuming that no one called the phone, they would have at least gotten the process started. What would waiting until March 2 do? Why did they even need the info on March 2, when they didn't even reach out to the last person he called?

joypath
04-23-2012, 02:37 PM
Yes, but initially he said that he was just stepping aside temporarily, just wondering why he's now officially resigning.

JMHO


Just wondering if it could have something to do with an FDLE investigation or Department of Justice investigation or may be it could have something to do with both??


~jmo~


HYPOTHESIS & JMO!

Maybe he got advice from the "former Police Chief" of East Haven, Ct: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/30/us-connecticut-police-profiling-idUSTRE80T1J820120130

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2012/01/29/news/metro/doc4f25c06a47766200908237.txt

and the FBI are not playing with this issue, more jurisdictions are being "observed"

HiHater
04-23-2012, 02:39 PM
What documents regarding Trayvon? The police report? I don't remember anything specifically about him other than the FAQ and the police report from that night being posted. Perhaps you can specifically illustrate what you're talking about?

I just did.

The police report and the FAQs contain statements that I think were lies or deceitful.

jmo moo imo

suzihawk
04-23-2012, 02:39 PM
Yea, they'd probably just lie about it the same as with everything else on this case.



~jmo~


I do not understand why we are to think that all these people are lying to cover up for GZ. Why would they care? Nobody knows what happened in the last minutes, so to assume that there is only one victim in this case is pointless to me. All we have right now is speculation.

The SPD has a very long and deep history of corruption and racial discrimination. The small town 'good ole boy network'. (Google is your friend.)

There's every reason to suspect they could be lying in this particular case. Trayvon Martin was a black teenager. GZ's father was a Magistrate Judge.

LambChop
04-23-2012, 02:40 PM
I don't think a warrant would be necessary, any more than a warrant would have been necessary to look in his pockets/wallet for an ID...

That's JMO though, it's not clear to me. If they did need a warrant, I don't see any reason why they could not have gotten one that night or early the next morning.

They may have felt they needed one because they were looking at GZ as a victim at the time and TM was the one engaged in criminal activity. jmo

PinkiGreen
04-23-2012, 02:40 PM
You might want to go back and read some of the previous threads. There was lots of discussion about who was the victim and such early on. But once GZ was charged it was indicated that Trayvon was the victim and was to be treated as such.

Ive read them all. Thanks.

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 02:41 PM
Well, assuming that no one called the phone, they would have at least gotten the process started. What would waiting until March 2 do? Why did they even need the info on March 2, when they didn't even reach out to the last person he called?
Two facets to this. First, they had apparently identified him already the next morning, rendering the expediency fairly moot at that point.

Second, how were they supposed to know who he last called if the phone was locked? They would have only been able to call 911, which it looks like they did. Why it took a few days, I'm not sure.

HiHater
04-23-2012, 02:42 PM
They may have felt they needed one because they were looking at GZ as a victim at the time and TM was the one engaged in criminal activity. jmo

Good point, I didn't even consider that. It's an absurd notion, but you have a valid point nonetheless...

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 02:42 PM
I just did.

The police report and the FAQs contain statements that I think were lies or deceitful.

jmo moo imo

That's all I was asking. I didn't know what you were specifically referring to, or if I had missed something.

HiHater
04-23-2012, 02:44 PM
Two facets to this. First, they had apparently identified him already the next morning, rendering the expediency fairly moot at that point.

Second, how were they supposed to know who he last called if the phone was locked? They would have only been able to call 911, which it looks like they did. Why it took a few days, I'm not sure.

I agree, they seemed to have rendered many things "fairly moot." They half-a##ed an investigation and let an alleged MURDERER walk free. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Trayvon, he lay dead and deserved expediency at the very least.

:moo::twocents:

TonyGatto
04-23-2012, 02:44 PM
Interesting how the fiancee said she didn't know of one crime in the four years she had been living there, while others saw crime constantly.

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 02:45 PM
Interesting how the fiancee said she didn't know of one crime in the four years she had been living there, while others saw crime constantly.

And there were what, 8 burglary reports in the last few months? JMO

LolaMoon08
04-23-2012, 02:46 PM
Officials to vote on Sanford chief's resignation
By MIKE SCHNEIDER, AP
23 minutes ago

ORLANDO, Fla. — The Sanford city commission will vote to approve the resignation of the police chief harshly criticized for his handling of the Trayvon Martin case.

The commissioners said in a news release Monday that they would vote at a meeting later in the day to approve the resignation of Bill Lee.

Police did not initially charge 28-year-old George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer who claimed he shot the 17-year-old Martin in self-defense.

Florida law gives people broad leeway to use lethal force if they believe their lives are in grave danger. The Feb. 26 shooting sparked protests nationwide, as well as debates about the laws and race. Martin was black; Zimmerman is the son of a white father and Hispanic mother...

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20120421/US.Neighborhood.Watch/

Is that typical for what happens when someone resigns? They have to take a vote on it? Or are they just choosing to do this so they can all vote for his resignation to make themselves look better? I remember the "no confidence" vote and not everyone voted against him, so it will be interesting to see if everyone approves the resignation?

HiHater
04-23-2012, 02:47 PM
Interesting how the fiancee said she didn't know of one crime in the four years she had been living there, while others saw crime constantly.

Maybe she was minding her business...what a concept.

8 burglaries in 15 months...again I say, that's not a lot of crime. There are probably more than 8 burglaries A DAY where I live...

LC446
04-23-2012, 02:48 PM
Ive read them all. Thanks.

Oops, I get the impression you think I was being snippy, I wasn't. I was simply saying that early on the mods instructed us that we were to treat them both as victims until further notice and then when GZ was charged we were told Trayvon was the victim. I was only trying to help.

LolaMoon08
04-23-2012, 02:49 PM
Interesting how the fiancee said she didn't know of one crime in the four years she had been living there, while others saw crime constantly.

I keep to myself in my community? I'm not involved with my neighbors or even the activities they have for the residents. I've always been a really private person and I can count on one hand the friends who have ever been in my home. I've lived here 8 years and I couldn't tell you what's going on in here except someone ran into the stop sign and a bumper is laying in the road?

ETA: I didn't call the police to report it either. :floorlaugh:

Disguiseduser0308
04-23-2012, 02:51 PM
Maybe she was minding her business...what a concept.

8 burglaries in 15 months...again I say, that's not a lot of crime. There are probably more than 8 burglaries A DAY where I live...

BBM -- that's subjective. If you're living in that community, even one burglary can feel like a lot. JMO

lauriej
04-23-2012, 02:51 PM
Two facets to this. First, they had apparently identified him already the next morning, rendering the expediency fairly moot at that point.

Second, how were they supposed to know who he last called if the phone was locked? They would have only been able to call 911, which it looks like they did. Why it took a few days, I'm not sure.

--'they' did not identify trayvon the next morning, when his dad called to report him missing, LE showed up with a pic of trayvon dead on the grass-----is this him? -----mr. martin ID'd him for them.

--also, i personally find it pathetic that LE would have the body of a dead 'kid' lying in their morgue, and wouldn't do all they could that night to figure out who he was, they had to know somebody out there was missing a 'kid'??

LambChop
04-23-2012, 02:52 PM
And there were what, 8 burglary reports in the last few months? JMO

FT was reporting is house as a breakin and there was no evidence his home was broken into as. police round nothing. GZ reporting someone suspicious around FT's house. So reporting a possible break in is not the same as an actual breakin where LE makes a report of items stolen. Were most of these breakins on the side where GZ lived???? That could be why Ms. Green never heard of them. jmo

daisy7
04-23-2012, 02:54 PM
Officials to vote on Sanford chief's resignation
By MIKE SCHNEIDER, AP
23 minutes ago

ORLANDO, Fla. — The Sanford city commission will vote to approve the resignation of the police chief harshly criticized for his handling of the Trayvon Martin case.

The commissioners said in a news release Monday that they would vote at a meeting later in the day to approve the resignation of Bill Lee.

Police did not initially charge 28-year-old George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer who claimed he shot the 17-year-old Martin in self-defense.

Florida law gives people broad leeway to use lethal force if they believe their lives are in grave danger. The Feb. 26 shooting sparked protests nationwide, as well as debates about the laws and race. Martin was black; Zimmerman is the son of a white father and Hispanic mother...

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20120421/US.Neighborhood.Watch/

They have to approve his resignation? :confused:

TonyGatto
04-23-2012, 02:54 PM
And there were what, 8 burglary reports in the last few months? JMO

And kids playing in the street....all sorts of crime!!!

JeannaT
04-23-2012, 02:54 PM
Maybe she was minding her business...what a concept.

8 burglaries in 15 months...again I say, that's not a lot of crime. There are probably more than 8 burglaries A DAY where I live...

There is a range of crime by geographical location, certainly, but 8 burglaries in 15 months in my neighborhood would have people moving out. If we're literally talking about someone entering a home - as opposed to stealing an item outside the home - 8 burglaries is a lot.

IMHO.

Marshmallow
04-23-2012, 02:55 PM
Interesting how the fiancee said she didn't know of one crime in the four years she had been living there, while others saw crime constantly.



my next door neighbors didn't know the lady across the street died two weeks ago and they were home when the ambulance, police, and fire cheif were parked at the house.

some people don't know what goes on around them in their neighborhoods, it doesn't make them bad or imply that they are in any way to blame for anything.

lillygator
04-23-2012, 02:55 PM
--'they' did not identify trayvon the next morning, when his dad called to report him missing, LE showed up with a pic of trayvon dead on the grass-----is this him? -----mr. martin ID'd him for them.

--also, i personally find it pathetic that LE would have the body of a dead 'kid' lying in their morgue, and wouldn't do all they could that night to figure out who he was, they had to know somebody out there was missing a 'kid'??

I thought it was noted that they did id him - (I'm confused)???? I'll have to go back and look.

And he wasn't missing to his family until the next am correct, or is that wrong as well?

momtective
04-23-2012, 02:55 PM
Officials to vote on Sanford chief's resignation
By MIKE SCHNEIDER, AP
23 minutes ago

ORLANDO, Fla. — The Sanford city commission will vote to approve the resignation of the police chief harshly criticized for his handling of the Trayvon Martin case.

The commissioners said in a news release Monday that they would vote at a meeting later in the day to approve the resignation of Bill Lee.

Police did not initially charge 28-year-old George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer who claimed he shot the 17-year-old Martin in self-defense.

Florida law gives people broad leeway to use lethal force if they believe their lives are in grave danger. The Feb. 26 shooting sparked protests nationwide, as well as debates about the laws and race. Martin was black; Zimmerman is the son of a white father and Hispanic mother...

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20120421/US.Neighborhood.Watch/

Sanford police chief criticized for Trayvon Martin investigation resigns
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-23/news/os-george-zimmerman-chief-bill-lee-resigns-20120423_1_commissioner-patty-mahany-shooting-controversy-sanford-police-department

grandmaj
04-23-2012, 02:56 PM
And there were what, 8 burglary reports in the last few months? JMO

In the last 12 months.. not few months.

Shooting of Trayvon Martin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Police had been called to The Retreat at Twin Lakes 402 times from January 1, 2011, to February 26, 2012.[46] Zimmerman was the caller on 12 of those calls in that time frame. Crimes committed at The Retreat in the year prior to Martin's death included eight burglaries, nine thefts and one shooting.[46] The City of Sanford posted a "George Zimmerman 911 Call History" listing 46 event reports naming George Zimmerman as the caller between 2004 and the night of the shooting.[53][54][55] [Note 1]

TonyGatto
04-23-2012, 02:57 PM
I thought it was noted that they did id him - (I'm confused)???? I'll have to go back and look.

And he wasn't missing to his family until the next am correct, or is that wrong as well?

The id only came when his dad started calling the police in the morning reporting TM missing, SPD went to his house, asked for a photo of TM, circa 8am.

Donjeta
04-23-2012, 02:58 PM
What was the shooting all about?

cityslick
04-23-2012, 02:58 PM
Maybe she was minding her business...what a concept.

8 burglaries in 15 months...again I say, that's not a lot of crime. There are probably more than 8 burglaries A DAY where I live...

You live in a bad neighborhood then. I'd say it's average to above average for that area.

Emeralgem
04-23-2012, 02:58 PM
The SPD has a very long and deep history of corruption and racial discrimination. The small town 'good ole boy network'. (Google is your friend.)

There's every reason to suspect they could be lying in this particular case. Trayvon Martin was a black teenager. GZ's father was a Magistrate Judge.

"Good Ole Boy" system needs to be exposed for the evil it is and immediately eradicated..JMHO

LolaMoon08
04-23-2012, 02:59 PM
And kids playing in the street....all sorts of crime!!!

At least they weren't at the Lake throwing rocks and poking an alligator with a stick all while their mother watched! I witnessed this in my neighborhood and I didn't even call the cops. I did yell at the mom and called the front office though. That's probably the only time I have said more than two words to anyone in my neighborhood.

MOO

m00c0w
04-23-2012, 03:01 PM
In the last 12 months.. not few months.

Shooting of Trayvon Martin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin)

Police had been called to The Retreat at Twin Lakes 402 times from January 1, 2011, to February 26, 2012.[46] Zimmerman was the caller on 12 of those calls in that time frame. Crimes committed at The Retreat in the year prior to Martin's death included eight burglaries, nine thefts and one shooting.[46] The City of Sanford posted a "George Zimmerman 911 Call History" listing 46 event reports naming George Zimmerman as the caller between 2004 and the night of the shooting.[53][54][55] [Note 1]
I thought the 8 number came from the burglary reports listed on the SPD website (that were only from the last few months). I couldn't go back and check because they've obviously been taken down.

annalia
04-23-2012, 03:01 PM
Maybe she was minding her business...what a concept.

8 burglaries in 15 months...again I say, that's not a lot of crime. There are probably more than 8 burglaries A DAY where I live...

And it also depends on the burglary itself. If you listen to Taaffe he makes it sound like armed robberies, all breakins. But I don't think that's the case. Wasn't one of them something about a friend of someone's kid who was at the house, that they thought stole things?

Here where I live included in burglary reports are things like bikes stolen from open garages, or from front porches, things stolen off of decks and from cars, even alcohol stolen out of open garages. I've had my GPS stolen twice while my car was in my driveway. And we live in what's considered a safe area, certainly no one goes chasing after kids that they don't recognize as being one of those ******* about to get away based on burglary reports.

JMHO

TonyGatto
04-23-2012, 03:03 PM
In the last 12 months.. not few months.

Shooting of Trayvon Martin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin)

Police had been called to The Retreat at Twin Lakes 402 times from January 1, 2011, to February 26, 2012.[46] Zimmerman was the caller on 12 of those calls in that time frame. Crimes committed at The Retreat in the year prior to Martin's death included eight burglaries, nine thefts and one shooting.[46] The City of Sanford posted a "George Zimmerman 911 Call History" listing 46 event reports naming George Zimmerman as the caller between 2004 and the night of the shooting.[53][54][55] [Note 1]

And remember, police being called to the complex does not necessarily mean in response to a crime. Looks like GZ accounted for 3 percent of the calls to police. That's very high.

grandmaj
04-23-2012, 03:07 PM
OK we are going to take a commercial break here. And everyone needs to thank this message that you have read it.

The door to the snark room has been closed. These posts that are insulting, veiled or subtle insults end now.

Get the facts straight and provide link. I am not seeing anything backed up by links just lots of stuff being thrown out there to see if it sticks. Moderators should not have to go searching out links.

Lets get this right. Find the links and stick to the facts.

If this thread doesn't calm down moderators will take action against the offenders.

suzihawk
04-23-2012, 03:16 PM
The id only came when his dad started calling the police in the morning reporting TM missing, SPD went to his house, asked for a photo of TM, circa 8am.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/03/us-usa-florida-shooting-trayvon-idUSBRE8320UK20120403

When Tracy Martin greeted the police that morning, a plainclothes detective asked him to describe his son. "He asked me what he last had on. He asked me if I had any recent pictures," Martin said.

"I showed him a recent picture in the camera and he shook his head and said, 'OK, let me go to my car and get something.'" The detective returned with a folder.

It was drizzling, and he asked Martin if they could go inside. When they were seated he pulled out a photo. It was Trayvon, dead at the scene - his eyes rolled back, a tear on his cheek, saliva coming from his mouth. "From that point, our nightmare," Martin said.

jaded cat
04-23-2012, 03:19 PM
Thanks, so according the that log and going off of distances we have seen, TM should of been on his doorstep (or very close to it) by the time he was talking to the GF.

Continuing to repeat the same thing as a fact does not make it so. We have no idea what happened and to continue to make the assumption that TM should have been home is speculation.

Donjeta
04-23-2012, 03:20 PM
I think comparisons of the number of burglaries per day or month or year in different areas are pretty futile if the size of the area isn't specified. 8 burglaries per day in a decent sized town might be very few but 8 burglaries per day in a gated community with 263 townhouses would mean that in average every townhouse gets burglarized once a month.

mercuriod
04-23-2012, 03:21 PM
They have to approve his resignation? :confused:

Yes, because he has a contract, they have to officially approve his breaking the contract or they could be held responsible to pay him the remainder of his contract.

Aedrys
04-23-2012, 03:22 PM
I think comparisons of the number of burglaries per day or month or year in different areas are pretty futile if the size of the area isn't specified. 8 burglaries per day in a decent sized town might be very few but 8 burglaries per day in a gated community with 263 townhouses would mean that in average every townhouse gets burglarized once a month.

I think it was eight burglaries in twelve to fifteen months? I don't remember it being eight per day?

badme102
04-23-2012, 03:23 PM
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-23/news/os-george-zimmerman-chief-bill-lee-resigns-20120423_1_commissioner-patty-mahany-shooting-controversy-sanford-police-department


Sanford Commissioner Mark McCarty, who called for Lee's resignation more than a month ago, said the beleaguered police chief had to go –whether by resignation or firing.
<snip>
"He was put into a job that was a bigger job than he could handle," McCarty said. "This sends a strong message that the city of Sanford is going to make some changes…some very important changes."

Aedrys
04-23-2012, 03:23 PM
Continuing to repeat the same thing as a fact does not make it so. We have no idea what happened and to continue to make the assumption that TM should have been home is speculation.

This case cannot get to court fast enough, and we still might have to wait up to two years...:maddening::maddening:

Donjeta
04-23-2012, 03:24 PM
I think it was eight burglaries in twelve to fifteen months? I don't remember it being eight per day?

No, and that is not what I meant. Just an example I got that from the discussion of the crime rates where other posters live.

frenchvixen
04-23-2012, 03:25 PM
Sometimes words are interesting. He was going to Target...or is it more accurate he was going to target someone?

40+calls indicate to me he targeted individuals regularly.

Yep, I have always thought this. He was going on HUMAN target.

curl_in_progress
04-23-2012, 03:26 PM
Question on how things work with a defense lawyer. Let's pretend that GZ tells MOM that the story he told the SPD wasn't true. That he did keep chasing Trayvon and was trying to detain him until the cops came and that it spun out of control and he shot him. But once he realized that he shot an unarmed 17 year old who was supposed to be in the complex, he couldn't take his words back because he'd already locked himself into those statements and he didn't want to go to jail.

Can MOM still defend GZ's original statements as if they are true and try to get him off?

TonyGatto
04-23-2012, 03:29 PM
Question on how things work with a defense lawyer. Let's pretend that GZ tells MOM that the story he told the SPD wasn't true. That he did keep chasing Trayvon and was trying to detain him until the cops came and that it spun out of control and he shot him. But once he realized that he shot an unarmed 17 year old who was supposed to be in the complex, he couldn't take his words back because he'd already locked himself into those statements and he didn't want to go to jail.

Can MOM still defend GZ's original statements as if they are true and try to get him off?

Of course he can do whatever he wants...but the answer to your question is NO...it is unethical and criminal.

Aedrys
04-23-2012, 03:29 PM
No, and that is not what I meant. Just an example I got that from the discussion of the crime rates where other posters live.

Oh, okay. Sorry about that! I got confused!