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cityslick
05-02-2012, 10:33 AM
I'm sure a certified court reporter (as is present in every hearing) documented exactly what was or wasn't said. We just haven't seen a copy of that - yet.

So is it fair to take it as an opinion until such transcript is released? Because it wasn't thought of as an opinion before yesterday.

pcrum12
05-02-2012, 10:40 AM
I was a bad kid that never got caught. :floorlaugh: I swear I was the smartest kid ever! Anytime they did try to put me in any kind of I/S, I told them I was claustrophobic and couldn't be in a room with all those people so they would let me work in the Deans Office -- I won't even get into how great of a job that was!

lol -- I was pretty slick too. Anytime I wanted to skip class I would hang out in the principles office! They would never thing "perfect 4.0 little miss pcrum12" would skip class! I would chat the whole hour with the principles and counselors! LMBO

Just K
05-02-2012, 10:41 AM
I think it's all going to come down to what the state can actually prove beyond a reasonable doubt vs. perhaps what really, truly happened. That's legal justice, but not always absolute justice. I hope we get answers, but I think it's possible we may never know for sure how it all went down. :(

It will hopefully be checked but to date I have heard nothing as to when & where GZ first started tracking Trayvon's walking path. Perhaps Trayvon saw a car turn around and drive slowly passed him. Trayvon came from Miami. In big cities that can be seen as very threatening. Did TM then take cover near the clubhouse to get a better look at the vehicle that was following him? We don't know...AFAIK, GZ did not tell the non-emergency operator how he came to see Trayvon.

For all we know, GZ started out the security gate and out of the neighborhood when he saw TM walking into the gated community. GZ could have made a u-turn and started back into the neighborhood to follow TM. Another important detail that has been "omitted" or buried from/in the re-telling of the GZ story.

cityslick
05-02-2012, 10:42 AM
lol -- I was pretty slick too. Anytime I wanted to skip class I would hang out in the principles office! They would never thing "perfect 4.0 little miss pcrum12" would skip class! I would chat the whole hour with the principles and counselors! LMBO

I was always 'slick'.

Looks up at the name.....oh wait...

suzihawk
05-02-2012, 10:44 AM
So is it fair to take it as an opinion until such transcript is released?

:waitasec:

Are you saying it's not 'fair' for one to form their own opinion as to what was or wasn't said until an official transcript is released?

pcrum12
05-02-2012, 10:47 AM
I agree. A terrified teenager would not stop to confront the guy who'd been stalking him. Which is precisely why it didn't happen that way, and you have nothing besides the words of the shooter that say otherwise.

iirc, it has been reported that the GF/FRIEND ONLY has stated that she heard TM say "why are you following me?" FOLLOWED by GZ responding "What are you doing here?" Now it's JMOO but that sounds like TM confronting GZ to me and those words come from the parents attorney B Crump. All MOO but there are multiple links through these threads.

jjenny
05-02-2012, 10:50 AM
iirc, it has been reported that the GF/FRIEND ONLY has stated that she heard TM say "why are you following me?" FOLLOWED by GZ responding "What are you doing here?" Now it's JMOO but that sounds like TM confronting GZ to me and those words come from the parents attorney B Crump. All MOO but there are multiple links through these threads.

ITA. I don't understand all the arguments that g/f's story proves that GZ confronted TM. Even according to the g/f, TM was the first one to ask GZ a question. She also couldn't see who hit who first, so she is clearly only speculating if she says she believes GZ was the one that pushed TM. G/f's story isn't really inconsistent with the story GZ is apparently telling.

LiveLaughLuv
05-02-2012, 10:59 AM
iirc, it has been reported that the GF/FRIEND ONLY has stated that she heard TM say "why are you following me?" FOLLOWED by GZ responding "What are you doing here?" Now it's JMOO but that sounds like TM confronting GZ to me and those words come from the parents attorney B Crump. All MOO but there are multiple links through these threads.

That could be due to GZ cutting through and getting in TM's space..GZ determined to not let this a**hole get away..The mentality of GZ should give pause for concern. TM was only trying to get the front door..I believe it was GZ who stopped that from happening..

What if after the ME report is made public, like the funeral director who alleges there were no wounds on TM's hands to suggest he'd been in a fight (for his life, my words)shows that TM did NOT throw any punches...would that then allow you to believe who the aggressor was?

Or how about the fact that since TM did in fact tell someone that he was fearful of this man following him, is he not afforded the 'self defense' most afford to GZ?

I just don't follow the logic of trying to find something, anything to make TM out to be the one who started a confrontation.

GZ being 28-29 y/o to a 17 y/o, who should be the one to know better?

grammieto5
05-02-2012, 11:00 AM
Idk, but I would guess it was because he perceived himself as, between the two of them, the person rightfully where he was and Trayvon as a person who was not. He had not seen Trayvon in the neighborhood before and perceived him as a potential criminal threat. Under the circumstances, rightfully or wrongfully, he probably wasn't putting himself into the mind of an innocent kid visiting the neighborhood, but rather putting himself into the mind of a potential criminal. If that was his mindset, and I believe that it was, I can see how his first thought would be to ask the questions, and not to respond to Trayvon. jmo

Could you flip this around? Could Trayvon believe between the two of them he was the person who had the right to be there. Could Trayvon have not seen GZ there before that night? Could Trayvon have seen GZ as someone who might do harm to him? Why would GZ not think Trayvon was just an innocent kid?

mercuriod
05-02-2012, 11:01 AM
Well I get that, problem is, the believing can't be selective - if one does not believe TM came toward him or started running, then one can't selectively believe he was following him. JMO

What???? This post makes no sense to me. GZ saw a teenage, black male wearing a hoodie in "his"(GZ) neighborhood and started immediately following him, that teenage black male wearing a hoodie didn't even have to look at GZ, all it took for GZ to start following TM was that TM fit GZ profile as a "f*ck*ng punk" that being a teenage black male wearing a hoodie. GZ was following TM from the get go even before calling 911, cause big bad "Joe G" was going to make sure that "this" "f*ck*ng punk" didn't get away.

tpgks
05-02-2012, 11:03 AM
This is being discussed since it has been verified as his MS page by his lawyer and its in main stream media.

Do you have a link to main stream media about TM and verfification its him? If not it can't be discussed.

Ima

Miami Herald story referencing Trayvon's twitter account, while not mentioning the account name specifically, it does mention the tweets contained within, and the posting name of Slimm.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/08/2738118/what-trayvon-martins-social-media.html

LynnM
05-02-2012, 11:06 AM
Right! Most stolen jewelry ends up in a pawn shop, and people that have good jewelry have it insured and carry on.

That's true but to submit an insurance claim you have to have a police report about the burglary and the police said that the jewelry didn't match any that had been reported stolen.

LiveLaughLuv
05-02-2012, 11:07 AM
Miami Herald story referencing Trayvon's twitter account, while not mentioning the account name specifically, it does mention the tweets contained within, and the posting name of Slimm.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/08/2738118/what-trayvon-martins-social-media.html

BBM

Which were found to not be TM but a 'hacked' account...see search below..
http://www.bing.com/search?q=trayvon+martin+twitter+account+slimm+hack ed&src=IE-SearchBox&FORM=IE8SRC

mercuriod
05-02-2012, 11:08 AM
Idk, but I would guess it was because he perceived himself as, between the two of them, the person rightfully where he was and Trayvon as a person who was not. He had not seen Trayvon in the neighborhood before and perceived him as a potential criminal threat. Under the circumstances, rightfully or wrongfully, he probably wasn't putting himself into the mind of an innocent kid visiting the neighborhood, but rather putting himself into the mind of a potential criminal. If that was his mindset, and I believe that it was, I can see how his first thought would be to ask the questions, and not to respond to Trayvon. jmo

Well the BBM part I actually have to agree with especially since GZ had so much "practice" and really did actually live in that mindset, since which of the 2 ACTUALLY has a criminal record????

grammieto5
05-02-2012, 11:09 AM
OT-I have been super sick. Woke up thinking it was early evening. :blushing:

Can anyone give me the short version from the past couple of days?

Well, I've been doing a lot of reading, unless I've missed something, there are still only two true facts, true fact #1-Trayvon's very young life is over :-( , true fact #2- GZ is responsible for Trayvon's life being over.

LiveLaughLuv
05-02-2012, 11:10 AM
What???? This post makes no sense to me. GZ saw a teenage, black male wearing a hoodie in "his"(GZ) neighborhood and started immediately following him, that teenage black male wearing a hoodie didn't even have to look at GZ, all it took for GZ to start following TM was that TM fit GZ profile as a "f*ck*ng punk" that being a teenage black male wearing a hoodie. GZ was following TM from the get go even before calling 911, cause big bad "Joe G" was going to make sure that "this" "f*ck*ng punk" didn't get away.

Don't forget, "these A**holes always get away!

Then also don't forget the driving force for GZ's aggressive behaviors...his own property was stolen off his front porch, so its' my belief it was a personal vendetta to set out for the next person HE didn't know to become his target..

People need to get into GZ's mind, mentality..it's his 'excited' utterances that tell it...he was very determined to stop anyone he felt was up to no good..TM was innocent..right place at the wrong time...and it was GZ who set his sights on TM for the reason above...

Just K
05-02-2012, 11:20 AM
What???? This post makes no sense to me. GZ saw a teenage, black male wearing a hoodie in "his"(GZ) neighborhood and started immediately following him, that teenage black male wearing a hoodie didn't even have to look at GZ, all it took for GZ to start following TM was that TM fit GZ profile as a "f*ck*ng punk" that being a teenage black male wearing a hoodie. GZ was following TM from the get go even before calling 911, cause big bad "Joe G" was going to make sure that "this" "f*ck*ng punk" didn't get away.

There are so many words and phrases that have been used to paint the picture in GZ's favor.

Hoodie: If a white kid or suburban middle-aged man had the hood of his sweatshirt up, in the rain, it would not be referred to as a "hoodie" it most likely would have been called a "hood."

911: After an estimated 46 calls to 911. ON February 26, 2012, GZ DID NOT CALL 911. He called the NON-EMERGENCY number.

Suspicious: If a white kid or suburban middle-aged man was walking home, talking on his/her phone put up his hood when it started to rain, who would call that suspicious?

I could go on but it doesn't matter...people are prejudiced and bigotous and we have ever so far to go before any minds will change.

tpgks
05-02-2012, 11:23 AM
BBM

Which were found to not be TM but a 'hacked' account...see search below..
http://www.bing.com/search?q=trayvon+martin+twitter+account+slimm+hack ed&src=IE-SearchBox&FORM=IE8SRC

Not a MSM link. And his Gmail was allegedly hacked by Anonymous, not a "white supremacist" group. The twitter account was scraped by an independent Social Media information gathering company, hired by the Daily Caller.

belle3
05-02-2012, 11:29 AM
http://cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/5/1/zimmerman_website_ra.html
George Zimmerman website crossing the line?

tpgks
05-02-2012, 11:29 AM
Well darnnnnnnnnnnn. "anon" was supposedly a "white supremacist" but I can't say that because we can't talk about it.

But, it was in a Bing search-result link!

belle3
05-02-2012, 11:30 AM
http://cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/bn9/2012/5/2/_stand_your_ground_t.html
Stand Your Ground' task force gets to work

Boytwnmom
05-02-2012, 11:30 AM
he had no issues-he had no idea who this nutcase following him was. Wouldn't/shouldn't the onus be on the follower? The guy who knew what was going on? The one who decided Trayvon was suspicious and needed to be stopped and prevented from getting away? Why didn't George identify HIMSELF?

I really don't understand this insistence that Trayvon was at fault here. Trayvon had no clue what was going on. George was in total control of everything including all the information. He decided everything, that TM was suspicious, that 911 needed to be called, that he needed his gun, that he needed to follow him with his gun. We are seriously expected to understand and agree that if someone is following us-we have the responsibility to establish who WE are, we should assume the follower is an innocent law abiding citizen with no evil intent? I'm not that stupid and I certainly wouldn't advise my teenage sons to take this approach.

If someone like George is going to undertake to play cop then he needs to follow cop rules and identify himself at the earliest opporunity which would have been back when he was sitting in his car watching Trayvon walk by. He needed to open his darn window and ask Trayvon a question about who he was, where he was going, etc if he wanted to know. That would have been reasonable and sensible. But he needed to escalate the situation and to follow and prevent him from getting away like all the other a#$holes did.

How this ends up being Trayvon's fault requires mental gymnastics the likes of which even the Soviets in the 70's couldn't manage.


For one, imo, George obviously wasn't concerned about his own safety, but that of his neighbors and, two, in connection with your earlier post, he did call the police.

Imo, it's all about the context. It is established that there were recent break-ins in the community which are known to have been perpetrated by young men, the majority of whom were black. George had recently assisted a woman whose home was broken into by this same group of criminals while she was in the home with an infant. That woman had to hide with the baby, most certainly praying for her and her child's life the entire time, and George was aware of this and had assisted her. These same criminals or "a&%holes" (personally, I think the shoe more than fits) did, in fact, "get away," as they fled out her back door just as the police arrived.

If I were a man, particularly a man who was a neighbor involved in assisting that woman and part of the NW, I would have done anything in my power to make sure that another incident just like that didn't happen again. Because I'm a woman, I'm not sure I would have followed Trayvon, but I'm feisty and I might have. In any case, if I knew that another woman and her baby in my neighborhood had gone through that, I would have done my very best to make sure I knew where this person was until the police arrived, this time. And if that meant following the person I was suspicious of, then I would have.

It was completely fortuitous that George was wrong about Trayvon. Imo, he had every right to be suspicious and I would have been, as well. Very much so, in fact.

For those reasons, I believe that what George did up to the moment of confrontation is, potentially, completely reasonable. It's what happened in those last seconds that matters to me.

The question in my mind about those last seconds is this. Both George and Trayvon's girl friend agree that Trayvon asked George why he was following and that George asked Trayvon what he was doing there. Why did Trayvon not simply say, I'm staying with my Dad over at XXX address. Even if he thought George was going for a gun rather than his cell during that conversation (which I don't think has been established and I'm not sure I believe, anyway) wouldn't a reasonable reaction be "Wait! Dude!, my dad's gf lives here -- right over there. I'm just on my way home!!!"

Elley Mae
05-02-2012, 11:30 AM
I have been looking for the TM was 70 yards from the house or door and can't find one, (msm)everything about that is in a blog or someones opinion, is there a link to this being true?

Just K
05-02-2012, 11:30 AM
It seems that the discovery that GZ, at the age of 22, still considered himself a "G" has gotten a few folks a bit upset.

For those who argue that we, as a public, cannot judge GZ by his acts in 2005, I suggest you note that his MS page was "MODIFIED" as late as 2 years before he shot Trayvon. By my estimate, he was 26 on January 16th, 2010. So, he wasn't a kid when he visited his "abandoned" MS page and modified his photos.

Boytwnmom
05-02-2012, 11:37 AM
he had no issues-he had no idea who this nutcase following him was. Wouldn't/shouldn't the onus be on the follower? The guy who knew what was going on? The one who decided Trayvon was suspicious and needed to be stopped and prevented from getting away? Why didn't George identify HIMSELF?

I really don't understand this insistence that Trayvon was at fault here. Trayvon had no clue what was going on. George was in total control of everything including all the information. He decided everything, that TM was suspicious, that 911 needed to be called, that he needed his gun, that he needed to follow him with his gun. We are seriously expected to understand and agree that if someone is following us-we have the responsibility to establish who WE are, we should assume the follower is an innocent law abiding citizen with no evil intent? I'm not that stupid and I certainly wouldn't advise my teenage sons to take this approach.

If someone like George is going to undertake to play cop then he needs to follow cop rules and identify himself at the earliest opporunity which would have been back when he was sitting in his car watching Trayvon walk by. He needed to open his darn window and ask Trayvon a question about who he was, where he was going, etc if he wanted to know. That would have been reasonable and sensible. But he needed to escalate the situation and to follow and prevent him from getting away like all the other a#$holes did.

How this ends up being Trayvon's fault requires mental gymnastics the likes of which even the Soviets in the 70's couldn't manage.


For one, imo, George obviously wasn't concerned about his own safety, but that of his neighbors and, two, in connection with your earlier post, he did call the police.

Imo, it's all about the context. It is established that there were recent break-ins in the community which are known to have been perpetrated by young men, the majority of whom were black. George had recently assisted a woman whose home was broken into by this same group of criminals while she was in the home with an infant. That woman had to hide with the baby, most certainly praying for her and her child's life the entire time, and George was aware of this and had assisted her. These same criminals or "a&%holes" (personally, I think the shoe more than fits) did, in fact, "get away," as they fled out her back door just as the police arrived.

If I were a man, particularly a man who was a neighbor involved in assisting that woman and part of the NW, I would have done anything in my power to make sure that another incident just like that didn't happen again. Because I'm a woman, I'm not sure I would have followed Trayvon, but I'm feisty and I might have. In any case, if I knew that another woman and her baby in my neighborhood had gone through that, I would have done my very best to make sure I knew where this person was until the police arrived, this time. And if that meant following the person I was suspicious of, then I would have.

It was completely fortuitous that George was wrong about Trayvon. Imo, he had every right to be suspicious and I would have been, as well. Very much so, in fact.

For those reasons, I believe that what George did up to the moment of confrontation is, potentially, completely reasonable. It's what happened in those last seconds that matters to me.

The question in my mind about those last seconds is this. Both George and Trayvon's girl friend agree that Trayvon asked George why he was following and that George asked Trayvon what he was doing there. Why did Trayvon not simply say, I'm staying with my Dad over at XXX address. Even if he thought George was going for a gun rather than his cell during that conversation (which I don't think has been established and I'm not sure I believe, anyway) wouldn't a reasonable reaction be "Wait! Dude!, my dad's gf lives here -- right over there. I'm just on my way home!!!"

Just K
05-02-2012, 11:40 AM
People have suggested that GZ has been vilified. Opinions as to how GZ presents and presented himself are mainly based on documented details of just that...how GZ has presented himself.

Karmady
05-02-2012, 11:56 AM
he had no issues-he had no idea who this nutcase following him was. Wouldn't/shouldn't the onus be on the follower? The guy who knew what was going on? The one who decided Trayvon was suspicious and needed to be stopped and prevented from getting away? Why didn't George identify HIMSELF?

I really don't understand this insistence that Trayvon was at fault here. Trayvon had no clue what was going on. George was in total control of everything including all the information. He decided everything, that TM was suspicious, that 911 needed to be called, that he needed his gun, that he needed to follow him with his gun. We are seriously expected to understand and agree that if someone is following us-we have the responsibility to establish who WE are, we should assume the follower is an innocent law abiding citizen with no evil intent? I'm not that stupid and I certainly wouldn't advise my teenage sons to take this approach.

If someone like George is going to undertake to play cop then he needs to follow cop rules and identify himself at the earliest opporunity which would have been back when he was sitting in his car watching Trayvon walk by. He needed to open his darn window and ask Trayvon a question about who he was, where he was going, etc if he wanted to know. That would have been reasonable and sensible. But he needed to escalate the situation and to follow and prevent him from getting away like all the other a#$holes did.

How this ends up being Trayvon's fault requires mental gymnastics the likes of which even the Soviets in the 70's couldn't manage.

I'm not blaming or faulting anyone, nor am I placing an onus. I just wrote what my thoughts are on the subject. I also explained why I think George may not have identified himself first, and what I don't understand about why Trayvon did not identify himself - especially if he thought he was about to be shot. The other side of those explanations has been offered many times over, so it's not like I felt I needed to cover those explanations again in my posts.

HiHater
05-02-2012, 11:57 AM
OH GOOD point. I am sure he is very interested in that timeline. And the timeline that Crump officially put out there, about the days following the tragedy.

It will be interesting to see if it is accurate and verifiable.

The timeline after the shooting doesn't really matter, unless SHE said something about it in her statement.

Unless Crump is called to the stand, wouldn't anything HE said outside of the courtroom or in the media be considered hearsay? I can't think of an exception that would cover it? Unless he is called to testify?

mercuriod
05-02-2012, 11:57 AM
he had no issues-he had no idea who this nutcase following him was. Wouldn't/shouldn't the onus be on the follower? The guy who knew what was going on? The one who decided Trayvon was suspicious and needed to be stopped and prevented from getting away? Why didn't George identify HIMSELF?

I really don't understand this insistence that Trayvon was at fault here. Trayvon had no clue what was going on. George was in total control of everything including all the information. He decided everything, that TM was suspicious, that 911 needed to be called, that he needed his gun, that he needed to follow him with his gun. We are seriously expected to understand and agree that if someone is following us-we have the responsibility to establish who WE are, we should assume the follower is an innocent law abiding citizen with no evil intent? I'm not that stupid and I certainly wouldn't advise my teenage sons to take this approach.

If someone like George is going to undertake to play cop then he needs to follow cop rules and identify himself at the earliest opporunity which would have been back when he was sitting in his car watching Trayvon walk by. He needed to open his darn window and ask Trayvon a question about who he was, where he was going, etc if he wanted to know. That would have been reasonable and sensible. But he needed to escalate the situation and to follow and prevent him from getting away like all the other a#$holes did.

How this ends up being Trayvon's fault requires mental gymnastics the likes of which even the Soviets in the 70's couldn't manage.


This post deserves more than the 1 thank you allowed! :tyou: :tyou: :tyou:

francie
05-02-2012, 11:57 AM
Thanks
I know TM is a victim. I also know that since Feb 27,2012 GZ has been victimized by the press and posters here. He has been arrested yes, but not charged and that is a big difference.

The Sanford police chief closed the case shortly after Trayvon was killed, George was released free & clear within hours, based on his claim of SYG. And no one was even talking about this closed case until Trayvon's parents sought answers in March, see article below. By the way, the first WS thread regarding George gunning down Trayvon wasn't started until March 8.

George hasn't been victimized by anyone, he got himself into this mess by unnecessarily following then killing a kid (George's word) when he KNEW police were on the way. He was told to NOT follow but did anyways and shot Trayvon within minutes, approx 233 ft from his parked vehicle (per SFD calls re address of shooting & Concerned Papa measurements). He pursued Trayvon almost the length of a FOOTBALL FIELD before killing him. George is in no way a victim, imo.

Reuters article March 7, 2012
http://news.yahoo.com/family-florida-boy-killed-neighborhood-watch-seeks-arrest-044537742.html

tehcloser
05-02-2012, 11:58 AM
What is wrong with the forum!!!!!!!!?????????????????????

tehcloser
05-02-2012, 12:03 PM
What is wrong with the forum!!!!!!!!?????????????????????

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 12:03 PM
My opinion is that Zimmerman isn't the sharpest crayon in the box. He barely has a two-hear degree in Criminal Justice, yet he wants to be a judge. Surely he knows you need to be a lawyer before a judge!

And I want to know why he doesn't mention any "suspicious" behaviors by Martin. Was he lurking in the shadows, looking in residence windows? Not according to the 911 call. He was black and therefore suspicious based on the color of his skin. And THAT is racism!!

HiHater
05-02-2012, 12:08 PM
Just jumping off your post but if we consider GZ posts, we must also consider TM post of racially-charged epitaphs, and violence. All MOO

Can we link to those? If not, then we can't "consider" that for the purposes of discussion.

Donjeta
05-02-2012, 12:11 PM
I'm not blaming or faulting anyone, nor am I placing an onus. I just wrote what my thoughts are on the subject. I also explained why I think George may not have identified himself first, and what I don't understand about why Trayvon did not identify himself - especially if he thought he was about to be shot. The other side of those explanations has been offered many times over, so it's not like I felt I needed to cover those explanations again in my posts.

How often does that work? Some stranger follows you for an unknown reason, there is a confrontation and you end up in fear of being shot, and you tell them, "Hi, my name is Such and Such", and they say, "OK, never mind, you can go now, I won't shoot you after all"?

It's not the obvious response imo unless you are aware that the reason you are going to be shot is that the other guy doesn't know your name, which would require some mind reading skills unless GZ identified himself and told TM what his problem with Trayvon was. It has been reported that he said there was no problem.

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 12:12 PM
I agree. Zimmerman was not concerned about the SAFETY of his neighbors - he was protecting their PROPERTY in his mind by stalking a person walking down the street. The fact that Martin was black was the entire suspicious behavior reported to the police. At no time does Zimmerman say he is acting suspiciously in his 911 call. At no time does he say there is a robbery in progress. Martin was suspicious because of his attire and the color of his skin.

tehcloser
05-02-2012, 12:12 PM
lmbo.........scuse the double post, but to delete one would take 3 hours. :floorlaugh:

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 12:17 PM
The Sanford police chief closed the case shortly after Trayvon was killed, George was released free & clear within hours, based on his claim of SYG. And no one was even talking about this closed case until Trayvon's parents sought answers in March, see article below. By the way, the first WS thread regarding George gunning down Trayvon wasn't started until March 8.

George hasn't been victimized by anyone, he got himself into this mess by unnecessarily following then killing a kid (George's word) when he KNEW police were on the way. He was told to NOT follow but did anyways and shot Trayvon within minutes, approx 233 ft from his parked vehicle (per SFD calls re address of shooting & Concerned Papa measurements). He pursued Trayvon almost the length of a FOOTBALL FIELD before killing him. George is in no way a victim, imo.

Reuters article March 7, 2012
http://news.yahoo.com/family-florida-boy-killed-neighborhood-watch-seeks-arrest-044537742.html
George was stalking a juvenile without a good reason.

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 12:22 PM
How often does that work? Some stranger follows you for an unknown reason, there is a confrontation and you end up in fear of being shot, and you tell them, "Hi, my name is Such and Such", and they say, "OK, never mind, you can go now, I won't shoot you after all"?

It's not the obvious response imo unless you are aware that the reason you are going to be shot is that the other guy doesn't know your name, which would require some mind reading skills unless GZ identified himself and told TM what his problem with Trayvon was. It has been reported that he said there was no problem. Trayvon was a teenager. Teenagers wouldn't think of identifying themselves. He was probably scared because he was being followed. He had every right to be there so why would he think he had to identify himself? To an unknown stranger?

imamaze
05-02-2012, 12:27 PM
Stop discussing each others sig and avatars.

The forum is running slow for me too :-(

Admin is working on it though :-)

saguaro
05-02-2012, 12:29 PM
lmbo.........scuse the double post, but to delete one would take 3 hours. :floorlaugh:

Slow for you too, huh?

LOL!

imamaze
05-02-2012, 12:30 PM
Can we link to those? If not, then we can't "consider" that for the purposes of discussion.

Another good point, we can't link to them that I'm aware of. Not discussable at this time. If it changes we'll let you all know.

Gin
05-02-2012, 12:34 PM
Trayvon was a teenager. Teenagers wouldn't think of identifying themselves. He was probably scared because he was being followed. He had every right to be there so why would he think he had to identify himself? To an unknown stranger?

JMO/IMO

Since SYG, I'm not sure what parents should teach. Stranger danger is probably out the window, though. Maybe it's time for the stranger is your friend, do whatever he tells you to....we just don't want you to be shot.
In the end, the stranger can shoot to kill, and as long as he depicts a "reasonable" scenario to LE, he might just get away with it.

LiveLaughLuv
05-02-2012, 12:36 PM
Not a MSM link. And his Gmail was allegedly hacked by Anonymous, not a "white supremacist" group. The twitter account was scraped by an independent Social Media information gathering company, hired by the Daily Caller.

BBM
No kidding? It's a bing search an internet explorer search engine, instead of putting different links I gave the 'search'....:what:

Karmady
05-02-2012, 12:39 PM
Could you flip this around? Could Trayvon believe between the two of them he was the person who had the right to be there. Could Trayvon have not seen GZ there before that night? Could Trayvon have seen GZ as someone who might do harm to him? Why would GZ not think Trayvon was just an innocent kid?

If you flip it around, of course Trayvon could have felt, and probably did feel, that he belonged where he was. However, he also likely did realize, imo, that he was not in a neighborhood where he is familiar to the neighbors. But most importantly, he was in tiny gated community at the time. I believe it only had three streets or so. He wasn't walking down a public street or in an obviously dangerous neighborhood where, imo, you might more reasonably draw the conclusion that someone who was following you and asked what you were doing there was just some random creeper. I live in a similarly tiny gated community and I would assume, I think reasonably based on that question, that whomever was following me didn't intend to throw me into his vehicle or similar. To my mind, it's just not a question that is likely to be asked by a predator. It's a question that would be asked by someone who also belonged where they were and is suspicious of what *I* was doing there. Rightly or wrongly. jmo

LC446
05-02-2012, 12:40 PM
I have been looking for the TM was 70 yards from the house or door and can't find one, (msm)everything about that is in a blog or someones opinion, is there a link to this being true?

MOM actually stated that during the bond hearing, while he was questioning the investigator.

csziggy
05-02-2012, 12:48 PM
MOM actually stated that during the bond hearing, while he was questioning the investigator.

The information on how far TM was from his temporary home:
Trayvon Martin Case Spotlights Florida Town's History Of 'Sloppy' Police Work
Posted: 04/ 9/2012 8:35 am Updated: 04/ 9/2012 1:01 pm
<SNIP>
At roughly 7:14 p.m., Zimmerman ends the call. Less than three minutes later, Trayvon Martin was dead from a single gunshot wound to the chest from Zimmerman's Kal-Tec 9 mm pistol, which he carried in a holster on his belt. Police arrived almost immediately and found Martin face-down and motionless in a patch of grass about 70 yards from the back porch of his father's girlfriend's house.

<SNIP>
CORRECTION: A previous version of this article stated that Martin was shot and killed 70 feet from his father's girlfriend's back porch. The distance was yards.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/09/trayvon-martin-cops-botched-investigation_n_1409277.html

suzihawk
05-02-2012, 12:48 PM
If you flip it around, of course Trayvon could have felt, and probably did feel, that he belonged where he was. However, he also likely did realize, imo, that he was not in a neighborhood where he is familiar to the neighbors. But most importantly, he was in tiny gated community at the time. I believe it only had three streets or so. He wasn't walking down a public street or in an obviously dangerous neighborhood where, imo, you might more reasonably draw the conclusion that someone who was following you and asked what you were doing there was just some random creeper. I live in a similarly tiny gated community and I would assume, I think reasonably based on that question, that whomever was following me didn't intend to throw me into his vehicle or similar. To my mind, it's just not a question that is likely to be asked by a predator. It's a question that would be asked by someone who also belonged where they were and is suspicious of what *I* was doing there. Rightly or wrongly. jmo

Pedephiles, killers, psychopaths, etc. can also live in 'tiny' gated communities. In fact, a killer did live in THIS 'tiny' gated community, didn't he?

sleonardelli
05-02-2012, 12:57 PM
Just jumping off your post but if we consider GZ posts, we must also consider TM post of racially-charged epitaphs, and violence. All MOO

I would say only if the social media site your using is AUTHENTICATEd. GZ's MS has been.

Karmady
05-02-2012, 12:57 PM
Pedephiles, killers, psychopaths, etc. can also live in 'tiny' gated communities. In fact, a killer did live in THIS 'tiny' gated community, didn't he?

Yes, they do. But my point was that they normally don't ask you what you are doing in the neighborhood before they harm you. Why would they care?

eta: there are also a lot better "targets" for such a person than a 6' tall 17 yo male -- like woman and children, for example.

grammieto5
05-02-2012, 01:02 PM
The thing is, if it can't be reproduced by video and there is no article or interview that references it, then how is it determined as a fact that he did indeed say her name?

I understand you're saying :-) It still reminds me of the "is this like the last time" statement which many of us heard, but later could not be found.

LynnM
05-02-2012, 01:06 PM
Pedephiles, killers, psychopaths, etc. can also live in 'tiny' gated communities. In fact, a killer did live in THIS 'tiny' gated community, didn't he?

I believe that I read that there were over 200 homes in that community. There are 150 in mine. I only know seven families that I would recognize and I have lived here since 1979. I live in a low-crime middle-class suburb but last time I checked there were 6 registered sex offenders living nearby, not in my actual development but within walking distance.

suzihawk
05-02-2012, 01:07 PM
Yes, they do. But my point was that they normally don't ask you what you are doing in the neighborhood before they harm you. Why would they care?

eta: there are also a lot better "targets" for such a person than a 6' tall 17 yo male -- like woman and children, for example.

I understand your point although I don't agree with it. Children and teenagers are kidnapped every single day, sadly. Pedephiles ask children to help them find their puppy in order to lure them. Since GZ was trying to keep Trayvon in his sight (allegedly), it's not a stretch to think he might try to engage him for that purpose.

JMO, of course.

Gin
05-02-2012, 01:09 PM
Yes, they do. But my point was that they normally don't ask you what you are doing in the neighborhood before they harm you. Why would they care?

JMO/IMO
OK...So suggestions for children/teen safety...I'm just trying to get a handle on what parents should teach in a SYG, loaded 9mm age.

1. If a stranger talks nicely to you, that means they are nice.... Just be sure to stop, answer them equally politely. When they tell you that you can go, then you can leave. :waitasec:

pcrum12
05-02-2012, 01:12 PM
The link that you posted earlier yourself clearly states that "NO EVIDENCE" ever surfaced that it was reported stolen.

I know for an absolute fact that insurance companies will NOT reimburse for stolen jewelry without a police report being filed. So that excuse/theory won't fly either.

jmo

I've had jewelry stolen and yes I had to file a police report and send to insurance co in order to have claim paid. However, filing a police report does not identify the thief. Nor does it insure that police will find or even LOOK for the perp. imo

pcrum12
05-02-2012, 01:16 PM
:rocker:I have never seen anyone at WS state Trayvon deserved to die.
NEVER

Why is it constantly stated?

Obviously, there are several who believe this was self defense. But, that does not mean anybody thinks TM deserved to die. It does not mean we don't have hearts and that we don't feel empathy for TM's family.

It simply means, that with the information seen so far, some feel GZ acted in self defense.

That is a major component in this case.

JMO

:rocker:

raeann
05-02-2012, 01:20 PM
I've had jewelry stolen and yes I had to file a police report and send to insurance co in order to have claim paid. However, filing a police report does not identify the thief. Nor does it insure that police will find or even LOOK for the perp. imo

A theft report and a report of "found" jewelry items can be matched almost instantly by computer, it doesn't require that anyone look for a "perp" at all.

grammieto5
05-02-2012, 01:23 PM
I'm not blaming or faulting anyone, nor am I placing an onus. I just wrote what my thoughts are on the subject. I also explained why I think George may not have identified himself first, and what I don't understand about why Trayvon did not identify himself - especially if he thought he was about to be shot. The other side of those explanations has been offered many times over, so it's not like I felt I needed to cover those explanations again in my posts.

So now kids need to identify themselves when they approached by a stranger????

Karmady
05-02-2012, 01:26 PM
JMO/IMO
OK...So suggestions for children/teen safety...I'm just trying to get a handle on what parents should teach in a SYG, loaded 9mm age.

1. If a stranger talks nicely to you, that means they are nice.... Just be sure to stop, answer them equally politely. When they tell you that you can go, then you can leave. :waitasec:

First, I don't think asking someone what you are doing in the neighborhood is a *nice* question to ask, necessarily. And I would bet it wasn't asked particularly nicely in this case. Certainly different than just saying hi, how're you doing? Or, to take suzi's classic example, can you help me find my puppy?

Second, what I would tell my little kid v. my teenaged son might be quite different. But I don't have a teenaged son, so I don't know that yet. What I do know, is that he will be unlikely to listen to me no matter what I say lol

All I can say is that you can't prepare your kids for every eventuality, so all you can do is teach them to use good judgment in the particular circumstance, and provide them with examples of what they might do if such and such happens. Honestly, and to your point, I don't think the precise scenario of this case is something that any parent previously would have thought to provide specific advice about. I just think that, given what is undisputed (at this point) about the exchange between Trayvon and George, that the best thing to do may have been for Trayvon just to have identified himself, and also that the argument that he was in legit fear of a random psychopath doesn't make too much sense to me under the circumstances.

jmo

katydid23
05-02-2012, 01:26 PM
A theft report and a report of "found" jewelry items can be matched almost instantly by computer, it doesn't require that anyone look for a "perp" at all.

How do we know anybody filled out a stolen jewelry report?

And if they were in different states then it would not automatically all be pooled together.

elementary
05-02-2012, 01:27 PM
Why is the onus on Trayvon?

he had no issues-he had no idea who this nutcase following him was. Wouldn't/shouldn't the onus be on the follower? The guy who knew what was going on? The one who decided Trayvon was suspicious and needed to be stopped and prevented from getting away? Why didn't George identify HIMSELF?

I really don't understand this insistence that Trayvon was at fault here. Trayvon had no clue what was going on. George was in total control of everything including all the information. He decided everything, that TM was suspicious, that 911 needed to be called, that he needed his gun, that he needed to follow him with his gun. We are seriously expected to understand and agree that if someone is following us-we have the responsibility to establish who WE are, we should assume the follower is an innocent law abiding citizen with no evil intent? I'm not that stupid and I certainly wouldn't advise my teenage sons to take this approach.

If someone like George is going to undertake to play cop then he needs to follow cop rules and identify himself at the earliest opporunity which would have been back when he was sitting in his car watching Trayvon walk by. He needed to open his darn window and ask Trayvon a question about who he was, where he was going, etc if he wanted to know. That would have been reasonable and sensible. But he needed to escalate the situation and to follow and prevent him from getting away like all the other a#$holes did.

How this ends up being Trayvon's fault requires mental gymnastics the likes of which even the Soviets in the 70's couldn't manage.

I really like your post. I find it disturbing that following someone is purported to be "legal" because there is no law against it and therefore that's all that matters. That using a gun against an unarmed boy who was just minding his own business is legal. That wearing a hoodie and being black makes one a person suspected of something illegal. Suspicion and paranoia run rampant. Not only that, they are legitimised by a large majority of people. If you can be questioned by a perfect stranger, and it's perfectly legal and kosher, while walking down the street, you have lost your freedom. Add a concealed gun and you may lose your life.

Totalitarianism breeds paranoia, and is driven by ideology. I see little difference between other regimes in history and what is happening now. As a mere observer, I think ideology seems to be running roughshod over true freedom and down in Florida, you are only truly free if you carry a gun. When I can no longer walk down the street because it is someone's right, who has no authority, to accost me and question my right to be walking down the street, it's time for me to find another country to live in; it isn't safe. Shades of the past. Truly scary. Especially because people like to righteously fool themselves about it, with, as you say, a lot of mental gymnastics (aka tortured logic).

Thanks for a thoughtful post.

RANCH
05-02-2012, 01:27 PM
A theft report and a report of "found" jewelry items can be matched almost instantly by computer, it doesn't require that anyone look for a "perp" at all.

Is this computer system for matching stolen items limited to local thefts or is this nationwide?

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 01:29 PM
:rocker:

:rocker:Self-defense only applies to defending your LIFE against attack. What did Zimmerman see that made him fear for his life. Self-defense does not mean attacking someone because you THINK they MIGHT be a burglar.

Legal definition of self-defense: A person claiming self-defense must prove at trial that the self-defense was justified. Generally a person may use reasonable force when it appears reasonably necessary to prevent an impending injury. A person using force in self-defense should use only so much force as is required to repel the attack. Nondeadly force can be used to repel either a nondeadly attack or a deadly attack.Deadly Force (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Deadly+Force) may be used to fend off an attacker who is using deadly force but may not be used to repel an attacker who is not using deadly force. (bold is my emphasis)

Clearly Zimmerman's use of deadly force was NOT self-defense.

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 01:33 PM
Is this computer system for matching stolen items limited to local thefts or is this nationwide? I don't know. California has linkups to all pawn shops for this purpose. I would hope most states would also have it. But I don't know if it's national or not.

grammieto5
05-02-2012, 01:33 PM
If you flip it around, of course Trayvon could have felt, and probably did feel, that he belonged where he was. However, he also likely did realize, imo, that he was not in a neighborhood where he is familiar to the neighbors. But most importantly, he was in tiny gated community at the time. I believe it only had three streets or so. He wasn't walking down a public street or in an obviously dangerous neighborhood where, imo, you might more reasonably draw the conclusion that someone who was following you and asked what you were doing there was just some random creeper. I live in a similarly tiny gated community and I would assume, I think reasonably based on that question, that whomever was following me didn't intend to throw me into his vehicle or similar. To my mind, it's just not a question that is likely to be asked by a predator. It's a question that would be asked by someone who also belonged where they were and is suspicious of what *I* was doing there. Rightly or wrongly. jmo

I'm guessing you're not a barely 17 year old ?????

Donjeta
05-02-2012, 01:34 PM
And what if TM had identified himself? How would GZ have known that he told the truth and wasn't some f***ing, lying a*****e who would say anything to get away, like they always do?

raeann
05-02-2012, 01:35 PM
How do we know anybody filled out a stolen jewelry report?

And if they were in different states then it would not automatically all be pooled together.

The conclusion offered, earlier in the post that started the discussion, was that the owner would have not reported it stolen, just gotten their insurance money and moved on. The TRUTH of the matter is, that IF there was a THEFT, there would have to be a police report in order to turn it in to insurance. Since there was NO REPORT OF STOLEN JEWELRY....the logical conclusion is it was NOT stolen.

The idea proposed in the quoted post....that somehow TM must have stolen the jewelry in ANOTHER STATE, without a car to get there.....and then come back to Miami (no other state anywhere within many, many HOURS of that city) doesn't seem in any way based in logic-- even if one WANTS to assume the items were stolen.

JMO of course.

Elley Mae
05-02-2012, 01:36 PM
I don't know. California has linkups to all pawn shops for this purpose. I would hope most states would also have it. But I don't know if it's national or not.

Some people don't know that their jewelry has/had been taken for a long time, they may not wear certain pieces of jewelry every day to notice it missing.

katydid23
05-02-2012, 01:40 PM
Is this computer system for matching stolen items limited to local thefts or is this nationwide?

Our town recently busted a theft ring and they had all of the stolen goods on tables at a police station and had people come with proof of ownership if it was their property, because the cops needed help identifying who the property belonged to.

So I have a hard time believing there is a magic, thorough database of all stolen property nationwide, that will instantly ID stolen jewelry. JMO

Gin
05-02-2012, 01:41 PM
First, I don't think asking someone what you are doing in the neighborhood is a *nice* question to ask, necessarily. And I would bet it wasn't asked particularly nicely in this case. Certainly different than just saying hi, how're you doing? Or, to take suzi's classic example, can you help me find my puppy?

Second, what I would tell my little kid v. my teenaged son might be quite different. But I don't have a teenaged son, so I don't know that yet. What I do know, is that he will be unlikely to listen to me no matter what I say lol

All I can say is that you can't prepare your kids for every eventuality, so all you can do is teach them to use good judgment in the particular circumstance, and provide them with examples of what they might do if such and such happens. Honestly, and to your point, I don't think the precise scenario of this case is something that any parent previously would have thought to provide specific advice about. I just think that, given what is undisputed (at this point) about the exchange between Trayvon and George, that the best thing to do may have been for Trayvon just to have identified himself, and also that the argument that he was in legit fear of a random psychopath doesn't make too much sense to me under the circumstances.

jmo

JMO/IMO
I am respectful this is your opinion.

I'm not sure GZ was a random psychopath, but he certainly wasn't a good guy that night.

I will always be protective of children and teens. I don't believe they have any obligation to reassure armed adults of their "intent".
I hope at some point sanity returns to Florida. It is still part of the USA, isn't it???? You know, personal freedom and all that jazz???

cityslick
05-02-2012, 01:44 PM
I really like your post. I find it disturbing that following someone is purported to be "legal" because there is no law against it and therefore that's all that matters. That using a gun against an unarmed boy who was just minding his own business is legal. That wearing a hoodie and being black makes one a person suspected of something illegal. Suspicion and paranoia run rampant. Not only that, they are legitimised by a large majority of people. If you can be questioned by a perfect stranger, and it's perfectly legal and kosher, while walking down the street, you have lost your freedom. Add a concealed gun and you may lose your life.

Totalitarianism breeds paranoia, and is driven by ideology. I see little difference between other regimes in history and what is happening now. As a mere observer, I think ideology seems to be running roughshod over true freedom and down in Florida, you are only truly free if you carry a gun. When I can no longer walk down the street because it is someone's right, who has no authority, to accost me and question my right to be walking down the street, it's time for me to find another country to live in; it isn't safe. Shades of the past. Truly scary. Especially because people like to righteously fool themselves about it, with, as you say, a lot of mental gymnastics (aka tortured logic).

Thanks for a thoughtful post.

BBM

What is 'right' and what is 'legal' are not always one and the same. You may not like the fact that he got out of his car, you may not think it's 'right' that he asked him a question, but it's not against the law. Just like it's not against the law for you to be sitting at a bar minding your own business and some stranger asks your name and to buy you a drink, even if you want no part of dealing with strangers.

Emeralgem
05-02-2012, 01:46 PM
iirc, it has been reported that the GF/FRIEND ONLY has stated that she heard TM say "why are you following me?" FOLLOWED by GZ responding "What are you doing here?" Now it's JMOO but that sounds like TM confronting GZ to me and those words come from the parents attorney B Crump. All MOO but there are multiple links through these threads.

Not necessarily... Not IF GZ took a cut through and suddenly once again appeared in front of TM as he was headed to his father's girlfirend's townhouse..We all know TM told his girlfriend someone was following him..We ALL know TM stated he thought he had lost his stalker..
So IMHO.. IF GZ suddenly once again appears on the scene he is the one who was doing the confronting and IMHO Trayvon had every right to ask him.."why are you following me"..JMHO

suzihawk
05-02-2012, 01:48 PM
First, I don't think asking someone what you are doing in the neighborhood is a *nice* question to ask, necessarily. And I would bet it wasn't asked particularly nicely in this case. Certainly different than just saying hi, how're you doing? Or, to take suzi's classic example, can you help me find my puppy?

Second, what I would tell my little kid v. my teenaged son might be quite different. But I don't have a teenaged son, so I don't know that yet. What I do know, is that he will be unlikely to listen to me no matter what I say lol

All I can say is that you can't prepare your kids for every eventuality, so all you can do is teach them to use good judgment in the particular circumstance, and provide them with examples of what they might do if such and such happens. Honestly, and to your point, I don't think the precise scenario of this case is something that any parent previously would have thought to provide specific advice about. I just think that, given what is undisputed (at this point) about the exchange between Trayvon and George, that the best thing to do may have been for Trayvon just to have identified himself, and also that the argument that he was in legit fear of a random psychopath doesn't make too much sense to me under the circumstances.

jmo

I have no doubt Trayvon's parents taught him to use good judgment and to be a respectful and polite young man.

If only Trayvon had been polite, he wouldn't have been shot dead by a man on a mission? I just can't even wrap my head around such an absurd assumption!

My opinion.

RANCH
05-02-2012, 01:52 PM
I believe that this Florida statute is the one which may be applicable to this case.

(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 01:54 PM
JMO/IMO
I am respectful this is your opinion.

I'm not sure GZ was a random psychopath, but he certainly wasn't a good guy that night.

I will always be protective of children and teens. I don't believe they have any obligation to reassure armed adults of their "intent".
I hope at some point sanity returns to Florida. It is still part of the USA, isn't it???? You know, personal freedom and all that jazz???

I know my cousin has told all three of her boys to be VERY careful when they are out on their own - never wear their hoods up and be aware. What's frightening is that she even has to tell them this.

katydid23
05-02-2012, 01:57 PM
The conclusion offered, earlier in the post that started the discussion, was that the owner would have not reported it stolen, just gotten their insurance money and moved on. The TRUTH of the matter is, that IF there was a THEFT, there would have to be a police report in order to turn it in to insurance. Since there was NO REPORT OF STOLEN JEWELRY....the logical conclusion is it was NOT stolen.

The idea proposed in the quoted post....that somehow TM must have stolen the jewelry in ANOTHER STATE, without a car to get there.....and then come back to Miami (no other state anywhere within many, many HOURS of that city) doesn't seem in any way based in logic-- even if one WANTS to assume the items were stolen.

JMO of course.

BBM

I do not agree that it is a logical conclusion that no police report means there is no crime. There are many crimes that go unreported for various reasons. Not reporting something does not mean it never happened. imo

And I didn't see anyone accusing TM of stealing the jewelry in another state, or of actually stealing anything. But the question still remains, what was he doing with women's diamond earrings and rings in his school backpack? If it did have an innocent explanation, why not just tell the school who it belonged to?

And there is a reason it is important info. NOBODY says he deserved to be shot that night. Nobody. The question about his school suspensions goes to his level of 'suspicious' behavior that night. At school he trespassed onto closed area and spray painted graffitti and he MAY have had stolen jewelry in his possession, so is it possible that he MAY have been doing a similar pattern of suspicious behavior that night? I think it is fair for the defense to ask that question, imo.

HiHater
05-02-2012, 02:04 PM
Is this computer system for matching stolen items limited to local thefts or is this nationwide?

It's nationwide.

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fbi/is/ncic.htm


PURPOSE: The purpose for maintaining the NCIC system is to provide a computerized database for ready access by a criminal justice agency making an inquiry and for prompt disclosure of information in the system from other criminal justice agencies about crimes and criminals. This information assists authorized agencies in criminal justice and related law enforcement objectives, such as apprehending fugitives, locating missing persons, locating and returning stolen property, as well as in the protection of the law enforcement officers encountering the individuals described in the system.

Trayvon was stealing property from other states...if he had used the same car he drove across state lines to get to 7-11, he'd still be alive! :waitasec:

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 02:05 PM
I believe that this Florida statute is the one which may be applicable to this case.



http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html The keyword is REASONABLE. What would make it reasonable for Zimmerman to believe that Martin had a gun? If Martin did punch him (and I'm not sure this happened), why wouldn't he have pulled a gun to get Zimmerman to back off instead of punching him?

Clearly, Zimmerman's injuries were minor enough to be treated with first aid. I believe the problems in the complex were BURLARIES, not ROBBERIES. Burglars usually just want to get in and out and not get caught. Burglary is not usually a violent crime. Yet Zimmerman felt the need to carry a violent weapon to deal with non-violent issues. He was looking for a fight imo.

Karmady
05-02-2012, 02:05 PM
I'm guessing you're not a barely 17 year old ?????

I wish. But, obviously, I can never speak from Trayvon's perspective because, although I have been 17 years old, I have never been a 17 yo male and have never been in that precise situation.

cityslick
05-02-2012, 02:07 PM
The keyword is REASONABLE. What would make it reasonable for Zimmerman to believe that Martin had a gun? If Martin did punch him (and I'm not sure this happened), why wouldn't he have pulled a gun to get Zimmerman to back off instead of punching him?

Clearly, Zimmerman's injuries were minor enough to be treated with first aid. I believe the problems in the complex were BURLARIES, not ROBBERIES. Burglars usually just want to get in and out and not get caught. Burglary is not usually a violent crime. Yet Zimmerman felt the need to carry a violent weapon to deal with non-violent issues. He was looking for a fight imo.

How do you know he didn't carry his gun wherever he went? Isn't that why people get a CCP or is it just people looking for a fight?

HiHater
05-02-2012, 02:08 PM
BBM

I do not agree that it is a logical conclusion that no police report means there is no crime. There are many crimes that go unreported for various reasons. Not reporting something does not mean it never happened. imo

And I didn't see anyone accusing TM of stealing the jewelry in another state, or of actually stealing anything. But the question still remains, what was he doing with women's diamond earrings and rings in his school backpack? If it did have an innocent explanation, why not just tell the school who it belonged to?

And there is a reason it is important info. NOBODY says he deserved to be shot that night. Nobody. The question about his school suspensions goes to his level of 'suspicious' behavior that night. At school he trespassed onto closed area and spray painted graffitti and he MAY have had stolen jewelry in his possession, so is it possible that he MAY have been doing a similar pattern of suspicious behavior that night? I think it is fair for the defense to ask that question, imo.

Why are we making a leap that GZ didn't? His school suspensions have nothing to do with his suspicious behavior that night. GZ described exactly what he thought was suspicious (walking about, walking toward me, staring, etc.) He never once mentions casing houses or any type of behavior that would be associated with stealing or burglary.

If we use the school suspensions, then let's use GZ's run ins with LE and his domestic violence history to show that he was violent and had a knack for picking on people more vulnerable than himself.

:moo::twocents:

Gin
05-02-2012, 02:09 PM
The keyword is REASONABLE. What would make it reasonable for Zimmerman to believe that Martin had a gun? If Martin did punch him (and I'm not sure this happened), why wouldn't he have pulled a gun to get Zimmerman to back off instead of punching him?

Clearly, Zimmerman's injuries were minor enough to be treated with first aid. I believe the problems in the complex were BURLARIES, not ROBBERIES. Burglars usually just want to get in and out and not get caught. Burglary is not usually a violent crime. Yet Zimmerman felt the need to carry a violent weapon to deal with non-violent issues. He was looking for a fight imo.

And this is just my opinion, others may vary....
To me, in GZ's mind, things (possessions) were far more important than the life of black teen.
Why else would someone stalk, and then shoot to kill over PREVIOUS burglaries?
I think he was hoping for some sort of public accolade...like a feature article in the condo newsletter or a citizen's attaboy award from the Sanford Police.

rotterdam
05-02-2012, 02:11 PM
JMO/IMO

Since SYG, I'm not sure what parents should teach. Stranger danger is probably out the window, though. Maybe it's time for the stranger is your friend, do whatever he tells you to....we just don't want you to be shot.
In the end, the stranger can shoot to kill, and as long as he depicts a "reasonable" scenario to LE, he might just get away with it.

And never ever reach for your waist band at any time. This has been used by multiple perpetrators (LE included) in homicides of an unarmed victim. Better to stick both your arms in the air with open palms. Or may be a bullet proof vest
for high risk kids should be standard attire when venturing out on the streets..

Karmady
05-02-2012, 02:15 PM
JMO/IMO
I am respectful this is your opinion.

I'm not sure GZ was a random psychopath, but he certainly wasn't a good guy that night.

I will always be protective of children and teens. I don't believe they have any obligation to reassure armed adults of their "intent".
I hope at some point sanity returns to Florida. It is still part of the USA, isn't it???? You know, personal freedom and all that jazz???

And I hope you know I respect that you have your opinion as well, and also the respectful dialogue.

re the bbm~

I don't either. I just think that, in this situation, it would have made more sense for Trayvon to have done so and, imo, could possibly have defused the situation to the point where we wouldn't be here discussing his untimely death. jmo

rotterdam
05-02-2012, 02:15 PM
If you flip it around, of course Trayvon could have felt, and probably did feel, that he belonged where he was. However, he also likely did realize, imo, that he was not in a neighborhood where he is familiar to the neighbors. But most importantly, he was in tiny gated community at the time. I believe it only had three streets or so. He wasn't walking down a public street or in an obviously dangerous neighborhood where, imo, you might more reasonably draw the conclusion that someone who was following you and asked what you were doing there was just some random creeper. I live in a similarly tiny gated community and I would assume, I think reasonably based on that question, that whomever was following me didn't intend to throw me into his vehicle or similar. To my mind, it's just not a question that is likely to be asked by a predator. It's a question that would be asked by someone who also belonged where they were and is suspicious of what *I* was doing there. Rightly or wrongly. jmo

You forgot the part where Trayvon was a BLACK teen. Historically and sadly such a kid has more reasons to be scared of a stranger than a white kid. JMO

elementary
05-02-2012, 02:20 PM
I have no doubt Trayvon's parents taught him to use good judgment and to be a respectful and polite young man.

If only Trayvon had been polite, he wouldn't have been shot dead by a man on a mission? I just can't even wrap my head around such an absurd assumption!

My opinion.

Yes, and there is no reason for Trayvon to fear that the guy following him was a random psychopath, but there is every reason for George to be suspicious of a black kid in a hoodie.

Karmady
05-02-2012, 02:22 PM
I have no doubt Trayvon's parents taught him to use good judgment and to be a respectful and polite young man.

If only Trayvon had been polite, he wouldn't have been shot dead by a man on a mission? I just can't even wrap my head around such an absurd assumption!

My opinion.

I never said he had to be respectful or polite. What I said was, I think he should have/might most logically have identified himself to avoid any escalation of the confrontation and to avoid being shot, if that was truly his fear in that moment. Not to be "polite," not because he was "obligated" to, just because, under all the circumstances I am aware of, it seems like it would have been the best thing to do. jmo

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 02:22 PM
How do you know he didn't carry his gun wherever he went? Isn't that why people get a CCP or is it just people looking for a fight? Unless a person is in a consistently threatened position (such as a police officer) imo there is no need to carry a concealed weapon.

rossva
05-02-2012, 02:24 PM
BBM
Ok, now I am confused. Was some one in addition to George Zimmerman following Martin?

Yes, and there is no reason for Trayvon to fear that the guy following him was a random psychopath, but there is every reason for George to be suspicious of a black kid in a hoodie.

tpgks
05-02-2012, 02:26 PM
I have no doubt Trayvon's parents taught him to use good judgment and to be a respectful and polite young man.



:floorlaugh:

JMO, of course.

tpgks
05-02-2012, 02:28 PM
It's nationwide.

http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fbi/is/ncic.htm




Trayvon was stealing property from other states...if he had used the same car he drove across state lines to get to 7-11, he'd still be alive! :waitasec:

NCIC is practically worthless for items with no serial numbers or easily identifiable via sight.

katydid23
05-02-2012, 02:29 PM
Why are we making a leap that GZ didn't? His school suspensions have nothing to do with his suspicious behavior that night. GZ described exactly what he thought was suspicious (walking about, walking toward me, staring, etc.) He never once mentions casing houses or any type of behavior that would be associated with stealing or burglary.

If we use the school suspensions, then let's use GZ's run ins with LE and his domestic violence history to show that he was violent and had a knack for picking on people more vulnerable than himself.

:moo::twocents:

How do we know GZ wasn't making that leap? That is exactly the leap he was making, imo. The reason he was suspicious in the first place was because of the recent break-ins, home invasions and burglaries by young black male suspects. So he sees TM, tall, wearing a hood, walking in the rain, around the back area of the complex,' looking about, '----to me that sounds like GZ THOUGHT TM was casing the area.

vlpate
05-02-2012, 02:30 PM
And what if TM had identified himself? How would GZ have known that he told the truth and wasn't some f***ing, lying a*****e who would say anything to get away, like they always do?

And what if GZ had asked him his name and TM sucker punched him?

raeann
05-02-2012, 02:31 PM
And I hope you know I respect that you have your opinion as well, and also the respectful dialogue.

re the bbm~

I don't either. I just think that, in this situation, it would have made more sense for Trayvon to have done so and, imo, could possibly have defused the situation to the point where we wouldn't be here discussing his untimely death. jmo

I agree....as we wouldn't be if GZ had showed the same courtesy, rolled down a truck window, stayed inside and said "hey, I'm with neighborhood watch, do you live here or are you a visitor, is there something I can help you with?" and HE WAS THE ADULT, supposedly experienced and educated by the NW training program etc.

WHY, then, was HE not expected to be polite and diffuse a possible conflict?

jmo

rotterdam
05-02-2012, 02:32 PM
Yes, and there is no reason for Trayvon to fear that the guy following him was a random psychopath, but there is every reason for George to be suspicious of a black kid in a hoodie.


Lost here:waitasec: I hope you meant that sarcastically?

vlpate
05-02-2012, 02:34 PM
Why are we making a leap that GZ didn't? His school suspensions have nothing to do with his suspicious behavior that night. GZ described exactly what he thought was suspicious (walking about, walking toward me, staring, etc.) He never once mentions casing houses or any type of behavior that would be associated with stealing or burglary.

If we use the school suspensions, then let's use GZ's run ins with LE and his domestic violence history to show that he was violent and had a knack for picking on people more vulnerable than himself.

:moo::twocents:

BEM: Here's what he said, since we are referencing the 911 call as being what actually happened now:

GZ: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there's this real suspicious guy retreat view circle, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or something -- he's just walking around, looking about..
Dispatcher: ... and this guy's white, black, or hispanic?
GZ: He looks black..
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
GZ: Yeah, a dark hoodie, like a gray hoodie and either jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. (unintelligible)..he's just staring
Dispatcher: Oh, he's just walking around the area?
GZ: Looking at all the houses

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 02:36 PM
I never said he had to be respectful or polite. What I said was, I think he should have/might most logically have identified himself to avoid any escalation of the confrontation and to avoid being shot, if that was truly his fear in that moment. Not to be "polite," not because he was "obligated" to, just because, under all the circumstances I am aware of, it seems like it would have been the best thing to do. jmoYou are ascribing rational adult thinking to Martin. He was a teenager.

Karmady
05-02-2012, 02:37 PM
I agree....as we wouldn't be if GZ had showed the same courtesy, rolled down a truck window, stayed inside and said "hey, I'm with neighborhood watch, do you live here or are you a visitor, is there something I can help you with?" and HE WAS THE ADULT, supposedly experienced and educated by the NW training program etc.

WHY, then, was HE not expected to be polite and diffuse a possible conflict?

jmo

I said what I thought about this question last night, upthread somewhere. Sorry I don't have time to find it now. Gots to work! But to sum it up, it seems clear that George didn't do this because, in his mind, he had already concluded that Trayvon was up to no good and didn't expect a valid answer. I said why I think that conclusion may not have been completely unreasonable under the circumstances in my prior post. :seeya:

katydid23
05-02-2012, 02:39 PM
I agree....as we wouldn't be if GZ had showed the same courtesy, rolled down a truck window, stayed inside and said "hey, I'm with neighborhood watch, do you live here or are you a visitor, is there something I can help you with?" and HE WAS THE ADULT, supposedly experienced and educated by the NW training program etc.

WHY, then, was HE not expected to be polite and diffuse a possible conflict?

jmo

You are absolutely correct. GZ was entirely wrong for even getting out of his truck. And for that alone I think he should be found guilty of Manslaughter for setting up this entire tragedy.

But it does not follow that he is guilty of MURDER, imo. He was guilty of bad judgment and wild vigilanteism, for sure. But if TM was grappling with him over control of the gun, then IMO, GZ was forced to shoot. and that is involuntary manslaughter, imo, and not second degree murder.

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 02:40 PM
BEM: Here's what he said, since we are referencing the 911 call as being what actually happened now:

GZ: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there's this real suspicious guy retreat view circle, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or something -- he's just walking around, looking about..
Dispatcher: ... and this guy's white, black, or hispanic?
GZ: He looks black..
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
GZ: Yeah, a dark hoodie, like a gray hoodie and either jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. (unintelligible)..he's just staring
Dispatcher: Oh, he's just walking around the area?
GZ: Looking at all the houses

Looking at houses is not the same as 'casing' them. Odds are that this is not his normal residence so he was checking his bearings. Where did Zimmerman think he would stash the goods that he was allegedly going to steal? He doesn't say he's hiding in the dark. He was just walking. I didn't know that was a crime in this country.

vlpate
05-02-2012, 02:41 PM
I have no doubt Trayvon's parents taught him to use good judgment and to be a respectful and polite young man.

If only Trayvon had been polite, he wouldn't have been shot dead by a man on a mission? I just can't even wrap my head around such an absurd assumption!

My opinion.

IMO, it is not good judgment to ignore zero policy rules or write obscenities on property that doesn't belong to you - or to defy authority and refuse to answer questions about items that don't belong to you.

Sometimes it has nothing to do with how a child is raised, teens are a different breed and sometimes rebel against what they are taught.

JMO

BetteDavisEyes
05-02-2012, 02:47 PM
Several threads ago, we were discussing "illegal house parties" during which I mentioned a Lifetime movie that dealt with this subject. I was checking out the evening's entertainment on my Comcast TV grid and noticed that Dead At 17 is on today at 4:00 (Eastern) in case anyone is interested.

Plot Summary for
Dead at 17 (2008) (TV)

CEO Curt Masterson's slick son Cody and his docile brother Gabe organize a private party in pa's retreat cabin with teenage mates Ty and Jason. Curt's surprise treat is a pole dancer hired for lap dances, but bickering whether her $500 wages include an 'intimate service' end in her fatal fall from the stairs. The boys agree to dump her corps and hope there won't by a murder investigation, which could ruin their college prospects. Jason, of poorest stock, clearly can't re relied upon to keep the secret, and meets an untimely death too.

elementary
05-02-2012, 02:48 PM
Lost here:waitasec: I hope you meant that sarcastically?

Just taking the logic to its absurd conclusion. :)

grammieto5
05-02-2012, 02:50 PM
I wish. But, obviously, I can never speak from Trayvon's perspective because, although I have been 17 years old, I have never been a 17 yo male and have never been in that precise situation.

LOL me either (thank you God for making me female) I have raised a 17 year old boy. I had my second child (my son) before my first child (my oldest daughter) was a year old. These two have always been close they had all the same friends growing up, from K till 12th grade, our home was always filled with boys and girls. I have always and still do believe little boys are different in just the funny things they do. It's like they are in their own little world, so sweet! And if they are lucky they grown up and become "sweet" men. The fact that Trayvon's mom won't get to see Trayvon as a man, makes me sad for her. I'm also so sad for GZ's mom. Both mom's have lost their child, I think about how Trayvon's Mom will never get to laugh with him, or tease him the way only a mom can tease a son. And GZ's Mom, I'm pretty sure this is not what she thought her son would be doing. This is a very sad case, I am a little surprised at the anger. I agree with Trayvon's Mom Sybrina, it is a right and wrong case.

BiancaS
05-02-2012, 02:50 PM
A theft report and a report of "found" jewelry items can be matched almost instantly by computer, it doesn't require that anyone look for a "perp" at all.

In fact, if someone sells jewelry to be melted down for the gold or silver, the buyer must post pictures online in a program for police access for this very reason.

suzihawk
05-02-2012, 02:51 PM
I agree....as we wouldn't be if GZ had showed the same courtesy, rolled down a truck window, stayed inside and said "hey, I'm with neighborhood watch, do you live here or are you a visitor, is there something I can help you with?" and HE WAS THE ADULT, supposedly experienced and educated by the NW training program etc.

WHY, then, was HE not expected to be polite and diffuse a possible conflict?

jmo

I said what I thought about this question last night, upthread somewhere. Sorry I don't have time to find it now. Gots to work! But to sum it up, it seems clear that George didn't do this because, in his mind, he had already concluded that Trayvon was up to no good and didn't expect a valid answer. I said why I think that conclusion may not have been completely unreasonable under the circumstances in my prior post. :seeya:

Since Trayvon was being followed by a total stranger, he must have likewise felt GZ was up too no good. Yet, you expect Trayvon to be the one to be polite and diffuse a possible conflict and not GZ??

rotterdam
05-02-2012, 02:51 PM
Just taking the logic to its absurd conclusion. :)

Got it. You just forgot the :banghead:
You had me worried there. Almost made it to my ignore list :floorlaugh:

Donjeta
05-02-2012, 02:52 PM
How do we know GZ wasn't making that leap? That is exactly the leap he was making, imo. The reason he was suspicious in the first place was because of the recent break-ins, home invasions and burglaries by young black male suspects. So he sees TM, tall, wearing a hood, walking in the rain, around the back area of the complex,' looking about, '----to me that sounds like GZ THOUGHT TM was casing the area.

He was leaping all over the place like the Duracell bunny imo.
Looks like he's on drugs- leaping to possession and use of illegal narcotics.
just looking about- leaping to casing houses
he's coming to check me out, hand on waistband -thoughts leaping to the individual being a violent threat to George Zimmerman personally, and probably armed

vlpate
05-02-2012, 02:53 PM
Looking at houses is not the same as 'casing' them. Odds are that this is not his normal residence so he was checking his bearings. Where did Zimmerman think he would stash the goods that he was allegedly going to steal? He doesn't say he's hiding in the dark. He was just walking. I didn't know that was a crime in this country.

He'd been there often. It was a straight shot. How does one "case" a house without "looking" at it.

He knew where the 7-11 was and he had been to the community often enough that the kids there looked forward to his visits, according to this article. http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article1221799.ece


"Trayvon Martin lived with his dad, who resides in the Miami area, and had visited his dad's girlfriend at the Retreat several times before. The kids in the neighborhood always looked forward to playing football with him."

Gin
05-02-2012, 02:53 PM
In fact, if someone sells jewelry to be melted down for the gold or silver, the buyer must post pictures online in a program for police access for this very reason.

Those policies probably vary from state to state.
I sold some unused jewelry recently. I had to fill out a little 3x5 card, stating I owed the items, was selling them, gave my info and DL #. The store gives that to the police. They may have taken a photo in the back, when they appraised them, don't know.
I got my $$ that day.

grammieto5
05-02-2012, 02:54 PM
And I hope you know I respect that you have your opinion as well, and also the respectful dialogue.

re the bbm~

I don't either. I just think that, in this situation, it would have made more sense for Trayvon to have done so and, imo, could possibly have defused the situation to the point where we wouldn't be here discussing his untimely death. jmo

So you're asking a barely 17 year old kid to be the adult in this situation? If GZ had acted like a 28 year old man, we wouldn't be here!

katydid23
05-02-2012, 02:55 PM
In fact, if someone sells jewelry to be melted down for the gold or silver, the buyer must post pictures online in a program for police access for this very reason.

WHere does the law say that? I sold a whole lot of jewelry over the past 2 years, all of it high grade gold, and nobody ever took any pictures for the police. And I went to a very reputable jewelry store each time.

eta: I had to show my drivers license, and sign a paper. that was it.

vlpate
05-02-2012, 02:55 PM
He was leaping all over the place like the Duracell bunny imo.
Looks like he's on drugs- leaping to possession and use of illegal narcotics.
just looking about- leaping to casing houses
he's coming to check me out, hand on waistband -thoughts leaping to the individual being a violent threat to George Zimmerman personally, and probably armed

We have no idea whether or not GZ was making a "leap" that TM was looking at houses or what he was doing to cause suspicion, we weren't there. Maybe he was in the grass, close to the houses, and not on the sidewalk, that would look suspicious to me.

suzihawk
05-02-2012, 02:55 PM
I just don't get how this whole 'looking about' and 'looking at houses' translates into being suspicious. I walk in my neighborhood nearly every evening. I look around at all my surroundings. I enjoy the looking at the homes, lawns and gardens, the kids playing, etc. Am I to walk with my head to the ground as to not appear suspicious?

Gin
05-02-2012, 02:58 PM
He was leaping all over the place like the Duracell bunny imo.
Looks like he's on drugs- leaping to possession and use of illegal narcotics.
just looking about- leaping to casing houses
he's coming to check me out, hand on waistband -thoughts leaping to the individual being a violent threat to George Zimmerman personally, and probably armed

JMO/IMO
Great list...But...
I think we should include the definitive marks of a master criminal...
They always carry Skittles and Iced tea. Bingo! He must be up to no good! :wink:

grammieto5
05-02-2012, 02:58 PM
I never said he had to be respectful or polite. What I said was, I think he should have/might most logically have identified himself to avoid any escalation of the confrontation and to avoid being shot, if that was truly his fear in that moment. Not to be "polite," not because he was "obligated" to, just because, under all the circumstances I am aware of, it seems like it would have been the best thing to do. jmo

LOL well barely 17 year old kids don't always do the best things :-)

BiancaS
05-02-2012, 02:59 PM
IMO, it is not good judgment to ignore zero policy rules or write obscenities on property that doesn't belong to you - or to defy authority and refuse to answer questions about items that don't belong to you.

Sometimes it has nothing to do with how a child is raised, teens are a different breed and sometimes rebel against what they are taught.

JMO

According to teachers and adults that knew Trayvon well, he was not the rebellious type. The "no limit" name is from a rap group. And OMG, MARIJUANA, OMG, OMG, OMG. Wait, let me go get the police, I think pretty much everyone I know is going to have to go to jail.

Was he perfect, no. He just turned 17, his judgement is not always what it would be if he were older. Did he do anything on that day in Sanford that caused someone to shoot him? Not the way that the pieces are fitting together, IMO. Have you seen the pictures from his Mother's birthday, just before his death? He was wearing a Reese's shirt, he went horseback riding with his Mom and brother, and to dinner with the family. He's a decent, caring kid from everything that I have seen and heard about him. His parents should be proud. He comes from a middle class family, his mother worked for the Housing Authority in Miami-Dade County ever since she graduated college. She was in management when she left after her son was killed.

GZ, on the other hand, seems to have been making bad decisions throughout his life, and he is well into adulthood. People keep getting him out of trouble and he keeps falling back in. MOO.

Donjeta
05-02-2012, 03:01 PM
He'd been there often. It was a straight shot. How does one "case" a house without "looking" at it.

He knew where the 7-11 was and he had been to the community often enough that the kids there looked forward to his visits, according to this article. http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article1221799.ece


"Trayvon Martin lived with his dad, who resides in the Miami area, and had visited his dad's girlfriend at the Retreat several times before. The kids in the neighborhood always looked forward to playing football with him."

Well, imagine that. He had been there often and other people knew him but GZ didn't recognize him.

I wonder how many other people there are in the retreat that GZ doesn't recognize... Would he have recognized Tracy Martin's girlfriend and her son?

Somehow this man who doesn't know every frequent visitor to the community thought that no one he doesn't know has the right to be there.

suzihawk
05-02-2012, 03:01 PM
IMO, it is not good judgment to ignore zero policy rules or write obscenities on property that doesn't belong to you - or to defy authority and refuse to answer questions about items that don't belong to you.

Sometimes it has nothing to do with how a child is raised, teens are a different breed and sometimes rebel against what they are taught.

JMO

Did he refuse to answer that question? I thought he said it belonged to a friend?

Sometimes teenagers are just teenagers. I've yet to meet a perfect one.

JMO

LambChop
05-02-2012, 03:04 PM
Why are we making a leap that GZ didn't? His school suspensions have nothing to do with his suspicious behavior that night. GZ described exactly what he thought was suspicious (walking about, walking toward me, staring, etc.) He never once mentions casing houses or any type of behavior that would be associated with stealing or burglary.

If we use the school suspensions, then let's use GZ's run ins with LE and his domestic violence history to show that he was violent and had a knack for picking on people more vulnerable than himself.

:moo::twocents:

GZ had no information on TM that evening and never asked when he had the chance. To me it's too late once you have followed someone with your car and then you get out on foot to pursue them further. I would think GZ was up to no good and a threat. TM was walking home, had the right to do so without being stopped. No where on that front gate does it say "NWP - be prepared to stopped, questioned and possibly searched while on this property. FYI. Some of our members are armed and dangerous." TM had the presumption that he was safe because he was within a gated community. If GZ intent was to follow TM and he called TM in as suspicious, which he did and GZ decided to ignore what LE was asking him to do then he should have identified himself as a member of the NWP. He never claimed to do that from what we have heard so far. GZ had the advantage because he knew what he was after, TM did not. jmo

BiancaS
05-02-2012, 03:05 PM
I just don't get how this whole 'looking about' and 'looking at houses' translates into being suspicious. I walk in my neighborhood nearly every evening. I look around at all my surroundings. I enjoy the looking at the homes, lawns and gardens, the kids playing, etc. Am I to walk with my head to the ground as to not appear suspicious?

And...what GZ didn't realize is that Trayvon had a bluetooth earpiece in and was on the phone. All the more reason to be strolling along slowly, just taking in the sights!! No rush to get home where he would lose his privacy for the phone call!!

LynnM
05-02-2012, 03:06 PM
We have no idea whether or not GZ was making a "leap" that TM was looking at houses or what he was doing to cause suspicion, we weren't there. Maybe he was in the grass, close to the houses, and not on the sidewalk, that would look suspicious to me.

IMO GZ would have said so. He was certainly specific about what Trayvon was wearing including mentioning a button on his sweatshirt and he was insistent that he was suspicious and looking like he was up to no good and that he looked like he was on drugs. If Trayvon was off the path and close to houses, peeking in windows, trying doors to houses or cars, or anything objectively suspicious, it doesn't make sense that he wouldn't have just said so. This was a non-emergency line which he called because he didn't see a crime in progress. He didn't want this a**hole to get away and it would certainly have gotten LE out more quickly if he had a specific action like trespassing or trying doors to report.

As another poster said, I also walk in my neighborhood (and have been known to get caught in the rain) and I look at houses and gardens. Why not?

grammieto5
05-02-2012, 03:09 PM
I just don't get how this whole 'looking about' and 'looking at houses' translates into being suspicious. I walk in my neighborhood nearly every evening. I look around at all my surroundings. I enjoy the looking at the homes, lawns and gardens, the kids playing, etc. Am I to walk with my head to the ground as to not appear suspicious?

I do the same thing, only in the morning. Thankfully I no longer have to wear my pink hoody, but when I do wear it, I wear it up, and I do walk in the rain.

LambChop
05-02-2012, 03:12 PM
Well, imagine that. He had been there often and other people knew him but GZ didn't recognize him.

I wonder how many other people there are in the retreat that GZ doesn't recognize... Would he have recognized Tracy Martin's girlfriend and her son?

Somehow this man who doesn't know every frequent visitor to the community thought that no one he doesn't know has the right to be there.

You know I was thinking the same thing about visitors that GZ did not know. Could they have been the ones that "got away"?

BiancaS
05-02-2012, 03:13 PM
WHere does the law say that? I sold a whole lot of jewelry over the past 2 years, all of it high grade gold, and nobody ever took any pictures for the police. And I went to a very reputable jewelry store each time.

eta: I had to show my drivers license, and sign a paper. that was it.

It is done behind the scenes (after they buy it from you) by the jewelry store. I sell special cameras that some of them are using and have seen the software. They are required to hold it after they buy it and have it posted for a specific amount of time. It is a National database, divided by area. You would not be aware of that (but that is why they have your identification, in case something came up after the sale).

rotterdam
05-02-2012, 03:14 PM
Unless a person is in a consistently threatened position (such as a police officer) imo there is no need to carry a concealed weapon.

Well, that depends on the environment. I know many shopkeepers that do carry a concealed weapon and for a good reason. And many criminals often stay away from such an establishment if it is a well known fact.

Elley Mae
05-02-2012, 03:16 PM
It is done behind the scenes (after they buy it from you) by the jewelry store. I sell special cameras that some of them are using and have seen the software. They are required to hold it after they buy it and have it posted for a specific amount of time. It is a National database, divided by area. You would not be aware of that (but that is why they have your identification, in case something came up after the sale).

That is why in the county I live in they(jewelry thieves) ride the bus from the city to the county to pawn.

grammieto5
05-02-2012, 03:16 PM
Did he refuse to answer that question? I thought he said it belonged to a friend?

Sometimes teenagers are just teenagers. I've yet to meet a perfect one.

JMO

Me eiother, thank God. If they were perfect they wouldn't be human, they would be marble statues

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 03:23 PM
We have no idea whether or not GZ was making a "leap" that TM was looking at houses or what he was doing to cause suspicion, we weren't there. Maybe he was in the grass, close to the houses, and not on the sidewalk, that would look suspicious to me.

But he doesn't say he's looking in windows or knocking at doors where houses are dark. And if he's walking close to the houses, how does Zimmerman back up him claim that Martin was pounding his head into the concrete. Did Martin pick him up and move him so he could do that? Zimmerman does leap around a lot and all of it to make himself the victim.
Victims don't kill other people. jmo

BiancaS
05-02-2012, 03:26 PM
IMO GZ would have said so. He was certainly specific about what Trayvon was wearing including mentioning a button on his sweatshirt and he was insistent that he was suspicious and looking like he was up to no good and that he looked like he was on drugs. If Trayvon was off the path and close to houses, peeking in windows, trying doors to houses or cars, or anything objectively suspicious, it doesn't make sense that he wouldn't have just said so. This was a non-emergency line which he called because he didn't see a crime in progress. He didn't want this a**hole to get away and it would certainly have gotten LE out more quickly if he had a specific action like trespassing or trying doors to report.

As another poster said, I also walk in my neighborhood (and have been known to get caught in the rain) and I look at houses and gardens. Why not?

The button on his sweatshirt was in memory of a relative that died. Little did he know...

This is a kid that visited a paralyzed relative and spoon fed him. Made Easy Bake Oven cakes with his little cousin. Just a teenager with a big heart that was not embarrassed to be photographed kissing his father, shortly before his death. So incredibly sad that he had to die the way he did, that his life was cut short by a wannabe cop that will never amount to anything. And especially sad that I feel obligated to defend his honor. I cannot wait until the evidence comes out. MOO.

badme102
05-02-2012, 03:29 PM
We have no idea whether or not GZ was making a "leap" that TM was looking at houses or what he was doing to cause suspicion, we weren't there. Maybe he was in the grass, close to the houses, and not on the sidewalk, that would look suspicious to me.

That is a leap. If any of that were the case, GZ would have said so on the NE911 call.
Anything to vilify the victim, I guess.

suzihawk
05-02-2012, 03:33 PM
The button on his sweatshirt was in memory of a relative that died. Little did he know...

This is a kid that visited a paralyzed relative and spoon fed him. Made Easy Bake Oven cakes with his little cousin. Just a teenager with a big heart that was not embarrassed to be photographed kissing his father, shortly before his death. So incredibly sad that he had to die the way he did, that his life was cut short by a wannabe cop that will never amount to anything. And especially sad that I feel obligated to defend his honor. I cannot wait until the evidence comes out. MOO.

Well said and I totally agree. Especially with the bolded above.

:tyou:

badme102
05-02-2012, 03:33 PM
I think I'm missing something. Did someone find a police report or any evidence that TM did in fact steal jewelry from someone? TIA

rotterdam
05-02-2012, 03:34 PM
It is done behind the scenes (after they buy it from you) by the jewelry store. I sell special cameras that some of them are using and have seen the software. They are required to hold it after they buy it and have it posted for a specific amount of time. It is a National database, divided by area. You would not be aware of that (but that is why they have your identification, in case something came up after the sale).

Wow, I did not know that. That said, I ran an antiques and collectibles shop for many years and sometimes folks would bring in stuff that I did not trust as to where they got it and did not buy it, no matter how cheap. I always stayed away from the more expensive jewelry, did not want to get robbed. But me thinks that plenty of little antique shops are not aware of that requirement.

LambChop
05-02-2012, 03:42 PM
I believe BG stated in her interview that there are no sidewalks in the front of the homes, only grass. The only side walk was at the cut through and along the backs of the condos. jmo

LambChop
05-02-2012, 03:43 PM
I believe BG stated in her interview that there are no sidewalks in the front of the homes, only grass. The only side walk was at the cut through and along the backs of the condos. jmo

raeann
05-02-2012, 03:52 PM
I just don't get how this whole 'looking about' and 'looking at houses' translates into being suspicious. I walk in my neighborhood nearly every evening. I look around at all my surroundings. I enjoy the looking at the homes, lawns and gardens, the kids playing, etc. Am I to walk with my head to the ground as to not appear suspicious?

Me too! AND my beagle sometimes looks under their bushes and behind their mailboxes!!! Maybe she needs some blinders and a bullet proof doggie vest to keep her safe....

ladonna
05-02-2012, 03:54 PM
I believe BG stated in her interview that there are no sidewalks in the front of the homes, only grass. The only side walk was at the cut through and along the backs of the condos. jmo

I'd call these sidewalks.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article1221799.ece

raeann
05-02-2012, 03:56 PM
I'd call these sidewalks.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article1221799.ece

That photo is actually of the BACK sidewalk between the condos back yards....

LambChop
05-02-2012, 03:58 PM
I'd call these sidewalks.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article1221799.ece

And they are behind the condos.

raeann
05-02-2012, 03:59 PM
Here is the community website that shows the front view

http://www.407re.com/RetreatatTwinLakes

pcrum12
05-02-2012, 04:02 PM
Self-defense only applies to defending your LIFE against attack. What did Zimmerman see that made him fear for his life. Self-defense does not mean attacking someone because you THINK they MIGHT be a burglar.

Legal definition of self-defense: A person claiming self-defense must prove at trial that the self-defense was justified. Generally a person may use reasonable force when it appears reasonably necessary to prevent an impending injury. A person using force in self-defense should use only so much force as is required to repel the attack. Nondeadly force can be used to repel either a nondeadly attack or a deadly attack.Deadly Force (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Deadly+Force) may be used to fend off an attacker who is using deadly force but may not be used to repel an attacker who is not using deadly force. (bold is my emphasis)

Clearly Zimmerman's use of deadly force was NOT self-defense.

Well obviously you have your opinion. However, we have yet to see any proof in evidence that your theory is correct, nor mine. It has yet to be proven that GZ attacked TM or whether TM attacked GZ. Simple as that. As far as I know, any evidence put forth thus far has yet to determine WHO initiated the fight. All JMOO

rotterdam
05-02-2012, 04:14 PM
The button on his sweatshirt was in memory of a relative that died. Little did he know...

This is a kid that visited a paralyzed relative and spoon fed him. Made Easy Bake Oven cakes with his little cousin. Just a teenager with a big heart that was not embarrassed to be photographed kissing his father, shortly before his death. So incredibly sad that he had to die the way he did, that his life was cut short by a wannabe cop that will never amount to anything. And especially sad that I feel obligated to defend his honor. I cannot wait until the evidence comes out. MOO.

Yes, Trayvon's death was so tragic and unnecessary. Personally I am very eager to see additionally evidence in this case.
On the other hand, I wonder if it really will make any difference. This case is so politically loaded already. Behind the scenes, it is already being deliberated if a conviction or no conviction is beneficial to the political agenda and/or damage control IMO. Justice for both Trayvon and also for GZ is really immaterial at this point. The political agenda will drive this case and arrives at the least damaging to all the political parties involved which does not include either Trayvon or GZ.
Just my skeptical opinion.

jaded cat
05-02-2012, 04:17 PM
I want to know if this was investigated completely or if the owners were found?
bbm
Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.
Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.

That suspension was followed four months later by another one in February, in which Trayvon was caught with an empty plastic bag with traces of marijuana in it. A schools police report obtained by The Miami Herald specifies two items: a bag with marijuana residue and a “marijuana pipe.”

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/v-fullstory/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy


I do feel (jmo) that TM was acting suspicious, because of his past history of stealing jmo and being deceitful jmo that it was cause for GZ to take a second look. jmo

GZ didn't know anything about what TM may or may not have done so TM's past is irrelevant. GZ didn't say, hey this guy is walking around, looking in house windows, checking out cars to see if they're unlocked, stealing things from open patios. Those things might have been reason for being suspicious.

I have never heard any reference to a marijuana pipe, just that an empty baggie which might have contained pot was found in his back pack. No need to embellish the story to make it fit your narrative.

LambChop
05-02-2012, 04:20 PM
That is why in the county I live in they(jewelry thieves) ride the bus from the city to the county to pawn.

Must not be too profitable. jmo

Donjeta
05-02-2012, 04:20 PM
Here is the community website that shows the front view

http://www.407re.com/RetreatatTwinLakes


I find this noteworthy
We are an independent brokerage firm NOT affiliated in any way with the Home Owner Association

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 04:20 PM
Well, that depends on the environment. I know many shopkeepers that do carry a concealed weapon and for a good reason. And many criminals often stay away from such an establishment if it is a well known fact.

But that's a far cry from carrying a weapon when you walking in a public area. Maybe he thought Martin was going to steal his jewels?

Elley Mae
05-02-2012, 04:21 PM
GZ didn't know anything about what TM may or may not have done so TM's past is irrelevant. GZ didn't say, hey this guy is walking around, looking in house windows, checking out cars to see if they're unlocked, stealing things from open patios. Those things might have been reason for being suspicious.

I have never heard any reference to a marijuana pipe, just that an empty baggie which might have contained pot was found in his back pack. No need to embellish the story to make it fit your narrative.

I did no such thing, read the article at link it's in there.

Elley Mae
05-02-2012, 04:31 PM
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/v-fullstory/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy

n October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious."

Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.

Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.

That suspension was followed four months later by another one in February, in which Trayvon was caught with an empty plastic bag with traces of marijuana in it. A schools police report obtained by The Miami Herald specifies two items: a bag with marijuana residue and a “marijuana pipe.”

The punishment was the third for the teen.

bbm

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 04:35 PM
Me too! AND my beagle sometimes looks under their bushes and behind their mailboxes!!! Maybe she needs some blinders and a bullet proof doggie vest to keep her safe.... I don't know how to walk without looking at my surroundings. Also, if this was a grassy area, HOW did Zimmerman get his head pounded on the concrete?

rotterdam
05-02-2012, 04:35 PM
But that's a far cry from carrying a weapon when you walking in a public area. Maybe he thought Martin was going to steal his jewels?

Agree, he had no business carrying a ready to shoot 9mm on a neighborhood watch mission. Neither should he even been following Trayvon on foot..
Further more, I do not think he expected Trayvon to have a gun either. He would have stayed in his car(like any reasonable thinking human) snug as a bug. That reaching for waist band was just an alibi if somehow the confrontation ended up in a fatal shooting. There was some premeditation involved IMO.
I carried a concealed weapon when I had the shop open and after a local shopkeeper(friend of mine) was murdered and I was generally alone.
I finally closed up the shop and used safer on line sales only for a while till I retired.

LambChop
05-02-2012, 04:38 PM
Agree, he had no business carrying a ready to shoot 9mm on a neighborhood watch mission. Neither should he even been following Trayvon on foot..
Further more, I do not think he expected Trayvon to have a gun either. He would have stayed in his car(like any reasonable thinking human) snug as a bug. That reaching for waist band was just an alibi if somehow the confrontation ended up in a fatal shooting. There was some premeditation involved IMO.

I think what bothers me the most are the hollow point bullets. That's a clear aim to kill theology. jmo

vlpate
05-02-2012, 04:38 PM
Self-defense only applies to defending your LIFE against attack. What did Zimmerman see that made him fear for his life. Self-defense does not mean attacking someone because you THINK they MIGHT be a burglar.

We don't know that GZ attacked TM.

Legal definition of self-defense: A person claiming self-defense must prove at trial that the self-defense was justified. Generally a person may use reasonable force when it appears reasonably necessary to prevent an impending injury. A person using force in self-defense should use only so much force as is required to repel the attack. Nondeadly force can be used to repel either a nondeadly attack or a deadly attack.Deadly Force (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Deadly+Force) may be used to fend off an attacker who is using deadly force but may not be used to repel an attacker who is not using deadly force. (bold is my emphasis)

Clearly Zimmerman's use of deadly force was NOT self-defense.
TM was on top of GZ, according to an eyewitness and IMO, he was yelling for help for almost a minute, trying to get away from TM. IMO, that would be a reasonable attempt to avoid further danger or either of them.

JMO :moo:

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 04:45 PM
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/v-fullstory/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy

n October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious."

Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.

Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.


That suspension was followed four months later by another one in February, in which Trayvon was caught with an empty plastic bag with traces of marijuana in it. A schools police report obtained by The Miami Herald specifies two items: a bag with marijuana residue and a “marijuana pipe.”

The punishment was the third for the teen.

bbmOMG, a career criminal!!!! Very well could be he was holding for a friend. He's a teenager. Were there any arrests? And who determined they were diamonds - a jeweler or a school police investigator? My goodness, I'm just sick and tired of the blaming the victim. I am sure if we were examined to the extent that he is being examined, we wouldn't look so good either. I didn't know there were specific marijuana pipes. Was the pipe checked for marijuana residue? Most people I know who smoke just roll their own.

What is his CRIMINAL record? Was he ever arrested for burglary or assault. Did he plead down to anger management? Has he ever killed anyone?

vlpate
05-02-2012, 04:46 PM
And they are behind the condos.
Yes, those are patios off the courtyard. These patio doors were the most reported entry point for the past burglaries.

LambChop
05-02-2012, 04:46 PM
We don't know that GZ attacked TM.


TM was on top of GZ, according to an eyewitness and IMO, he was yelling for help for almost a minute, trying to get away from TM. IMO, that would be a reasonable attempt to avoid further danger or either of them.

JMO :moo:

Maybe GZ did not attack TM. Maybe he just wanted to hold TM for LE to get there and TM fought back, which he was entitled to do. TM was doing nothing wrong. And I thought it was still up in the air who was yelling for help? OS's two experts say the voice did not belong to GZ. If GZ was so concerned about avoiding further danger he should have never attempted to follow TM in the first place. I think LE would have found TM had he been up to no good. Where would he go if GZ headed straight for the back gate???? TM would have made it home and GZ would have to report that "another one got away." jmo

Emeralgem
05-02-2012, 04:47 PM
He was leaping all over the place like the Duracell bunny imo.
Looks like he's on drugs- leaping to possession and use of illegal narcotics.
just looking about- leaping to casing houses
he's coming to check me out, hand on waistband -thoughts leaping to the individual being a violent threat to George Zimmerman personally, and probably armed

And from the information he was giving dispatch he wanted them to think Trayon Martin was a danger to him, yet he followed him and even hunted him down...IMHO.. I'm not convinced his call to dispatch wasn't just a setup, an excuse to kill someone and use SYG law to get away with murder...JMHO.

ETA Wonder WHY he didn't tell disptach he was the one who had a gun in his waistband and had hollow point bullets to stop Trayvon M dead in his tracks...JMHO

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 04:49 PM
Well obviously you have your opinion. However, we have yet to see any proof in evidence that your theory is correct, nor mine. It has yet to be proven that GZ attacked TM or whether TM attacked GZ. Simple as that. As far as I know, any evidence put forth thus far has yet to determine WHO initiated the fight. All JMOO

Deadly force is STILL OVERKILL for a fist fight. Does Zimmerman always take a gun to a fist fight? Self-defense implies reasonable. Pulling a gun and shooting someone in the chest when he is unarmed is NOT reasonable. If it were, there'd be a lot of dead people lying around. jmo

Phoenixfla
05-02-2012, 04:50 PM
GZ didn't know anything about what TM may or may not have done so TM's past is irrelevant. GZ didn't say, hey this guy is walking around, looking in house windows, checking out cars to see if they're unlocked, stealing things from open patios. Those things might have been reason for being suspicious.

I have never heard any reference to a marijuana pipe, just that an empty baggie which might have contained pot was found in his back pack. No need to embellish the story to make it fit your narrative.

That suspension was followed four months later by another one in February, in which Trayvon was caught with an empty plastic bag with traces of marijuana in it. A schools police report obtained by The Miami Herald specifies two items: a bag with marijuana residue and a “marijuana pipe.”

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/v-fullstory/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html

rotterdam
05-02-2012, 04:51 PM
I think what bothers me the most are the hollow point bullets. That's a clear aim to kill theology. jmo

Well, if you are really in a situation where you or one of your loved ones are in grave mortal danger, hollow points are the answer if you only have time to shoot once. Even better is a shot gun at close range.You hardly have to aim them.

LambChop
05-02-2012, 04:53 PM
Yes, those are patios off the courtyard. These patio doors were the most reported entry point for the past burglaries.

And it's so easy to make sure no one gets in by installing a charlie bar or just put a heavy wooden dowel/bar in the track to keep someone from opening the door. Cost is minimal. As a NWP person I would think it would have been easier to tell people to place bars in their tracks than it would have been to go out and purchase a 9mm hand gun. jmo

vlpate
05-02-2012, 04:55 PM
OMG, a career criminal!!!! Very well could be he was holding for a friend. He's a teenager. Were there any arrests? And who determined they were diamonds - a jeweler or a school police investigator? My goodness, I'm just sick and tired of the blaming the victim. I am sure if we were examined to the extent that he is being examined, we wouldn't look so good either. I didn't know there were specific marijuana pipes. Was the pipe checked for marijuana residue? Most people I know who smoke just roll their own.

What is his CRIMINAL record? Was he ever arrested for burglary or assault. Did he plead down to anger management? Has he ever killed anyone?

No one is blaming the victim. Many are tired of the lopsided picture that has been painted of these two from day one. NEITHER was an angel, they both had things in their past, TM'm much more recent. If he were a year older, he's have had a record for the vandalism and police would not have taken "I don't know" for an answer when asked where he got all the jewelry. He didn't do anything horrible, but he wasn't the innocent child that he is constantly being made out to be. His past shows that he could have been up to something - regardless of whether or not GZ was aware of what he'd done previously.

It's funny how GZ's past matters when it comes to this tragedy, but he didn't deserve to be beat up by TM because of it. None of us know, not even the prosecutor, if TM was acting suspicious, and we don't know who threw first punch, so one opinion is as good as the other in this case. JMO

Elley Mae
05-02-2012, 04:56 PM
Well, if you are really in a situation where you or one of your loved ones are in grave mortal danger, hollow points are the answer if you only have time to shoot once. Next best to that is a shot gun at close range.
ot
For a house gun I heard that an AR15 (16 inch barrel) is better than a shotgun. just sayin

BiancaS
05-02-2012, 04:56 PM
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/v-fullstory/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy

n October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious."

Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.

Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.

That suspension was followed four months later by another one in February, in which Trayvon was caught with an empty plastic bag with traces of marijuana in it. A schools police report obtained by The Miami Herald specifies two items: a bag with marijuana residue and a “marijuana pipe.”

The punishment was the third for the teen.

bbm

The family said they were never told about a jewelry situation and their attorney suggested it was not true (why would he not have been arrested). And if he was found to have a pipe, that is a crime in itself and he would have been arrested. I never saw the pipe referenced before (the jewelry was, but it was said that the police could find no record that it was stolen). If there is a school police report, there would be an arrest for the pipe, IMO. They don't have their own legal system in the schools, suspension does not make a "crime" go away. IMO, etc. etc.

vlpate
05-02-2012, 04:58 PM
And it's so easy to make sure no one gets in by installing a charlie bar or just put a heavy wooden dowel/bar in the track to keep someone from opening the door. Cost is minimal. As a NWP person I would think it would have been easier to tell people to place bars in their tracks than it would have been to go out and purchase a 9mm hand gun. jmo

Are we blaming the victims, and now even GZ for the burglaries, were the young black men breaking in not to blame at all???

rotterdam
05-02-2012, 04:58 PM
ot
For a house gun I heard that an AR15 (16 inch barrel) is better than a shotgun. just sayin

Not familiar with that but that sounds like a cannon.:floorlaugh:

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 04:59 PM
We don't know that GZ attacked TM.


TM was on top of GZ, according to an eyewitness and IMO, he was yelling for help for almost a minute, trying to get away from TM. IMO, that would be a reasonable attempt to avoid further danger or either of them.

JMO :moo: He couldn't have been TOO pinned down as he was able to access his weapon and kill TM. Also voice tests proved it could NOT have been GZ calling for help. I feel sorry for GZ but he will wake up in the morning and TM will never wake up again.

LambChop
05-02-2012, 04:59 PM
Well, if you are really in a situation where you or one of your loved ones are in grave mortal danger, hollow points are the answer if you only have time to shoot once. Next best to that is a shot gun at close range.

I think if someone wanted to kill you they would do it and it would not matter what you were packing. I'm not against guns just that some people really should not have them. GZ obviously was one of them. I hope someone investigates how he was able to slip through those loops so many times. jmo

sleonardelli
05-02-2012, 04:59 PM
I'm going to share a story. I have a near 15-year-old son who's been treated by a psychologist for ADHD (H=impulsivity) every 2 weeks since he was 11. My husband and I have been dealing with his drug abuse (you name it, he claims he's done it) for more than 18 months now. He's in rehab through Juvenile Drug Court (JDC). His first 6 months in JDC he was popping positive every drug test. He was sent to detox for 5 days and stayed clean for 2 months before he was sent back to detox then to residential treatment by order of the court. During his time in residential, he's been sent to detention twice (5 days each). Right before his second detention, he was put on Lexapro and began the Focalin XR again. Since then, he's turned around significantly that he'll likely graduate rehab by the end of the month.

My son has been suspended 3 times since 8th grade. He's a troubled youth for sure but we've tried every punishment (except corporal) to get him onto the right track.

My son taught me some local gang signs today and tells me they don't just represent gangbangers, but "hoods" (neighborhoods). He has a FB account that we monitor. We've had to remove several offensive posts and remind him that his female cousins (tween/teen) and some of his friends parents (who also monitor their FB accounts) are offended by his message. He uses vulgarities (especially when playing XBox) and has been known to flip the bird. That said, my son IS NOT A THUG!

Those of you who wish to portray Trayvon as a thug, pointing to his tweets/FB posts and his suspensions as "evidence", I'm hear to remind you that those of us with bird flipping, gang sign displaying, vulgarity spewing, hoodie-wearing/pants sagging, less than perfect teens ARE NOT BUYING IT!

BTW, Z and I have been following this case closely on his home passes/drs appointments and, according to him, Trayvon seems like a typical teen dealing with their peer environment. Their peer and online personas are not representative of who they really are. He also says "Pray 4 Tray!"

BiancaS
05-02-2012, 04:59 PM
No one is blaming the victim. Many are tired of the lopsided picture that has been painted of these two from day one. NEITHER was an angel, they both had things in their past, TM'm much more recent. If he were a year older, he's have had a record for the vandalism and police would not have taken "I don't know" for an answer when asked where he got all the jewelry. He didn't do anything horrible, but he wasn't the innocent child that he is constantly being made out to be. His past shows that he could have been up to something - regardless of whether or not GZ was aware of what he'd done previously.

It's funny how GZ's past matters when it comes to this tragedy, but he didn't deserve to be beat up by TM because of it. None of us know, not even the prosecutor, if TM was acting suspicious, and we don't know who threw first punch, so one opinion is as good as the other in this case. JMO

Regardless of his age, there is a juvenile justice system and it has been confirmed that Trayvon had no record whatsoever. Can't say the same for GZ and on his MySpace he even talks about a crime he got away with while his friends "got a year."

tehcloser
05-02-2012, 04:59 PM
ot
For a house gun I heard that an AR15 (16 inch barrel) is better than a shotgun. just sayin

:what: Dear Lord......are you expecting the Bin ladens?

vlpate
05-02-2012, 05:06 PM
The family said they were never told about a jewelry situation and their attorney suggested it was not true (why would he not have been arrested). And if he was found to have a pipe, that is a crime in itself and he would have been arrested. I never saw the pipe referenced before (the jewelry was, but it was said that the police could find no record that it was stolen). If there is a school police report, there would be an arrest for the pipe, IMO. They don't have their own legal system in the schools, suspension does not make a "crime" go away. IMO, etc. etc.

I find it extremely hard to believe the family didn't know about the jewelry, and Crump is the one who said the family didn't know about it. Crump can say anything he wants to, he'll never be asked to testify to it in court. The report was from the school, not a newspaper or blog site. They sent the pictures to Miami police, but I wonder if they sent those pictures to Orlando?

"Trayvon, who claimed that an unnamed friend had given him the jewelry, was not disciplined because of the discovery, but was instead suspended for graffiti, according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald.
A lawyer for the dead teen’s family acknowledged Trayvon had been suspended for graffiti, but said the family knew nothing about the jewelry and the screwdriver, calling the information in the report an attempt to “demonize” the youth.
According to the report, on Oct. 21 staffers monitoring a security camera at Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School spotted Trayvon and two other students writing “W.T.F.,” an acronym for “What the f---,” on a hallway locker, according to schools police. The security employee, who knew Trayvon, confronted the teen and looked through his bag for the graffiti marker.
Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described the screwdriver as a burglary tool.
Trayvon was asked if the jewelry, which was mostly women’s rings and earrings, belonged to his family or a girlfriend.
“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.
School police impounded the jewelry and sent photos of the items to detectives at Miami-Dade police for further investigation.
“Martin was suspended, warned and dismissed for the graffiti,” according to the report prepared by Miami-Dade Schools Police.
That suspension was followed four months later by another one, in February, in which Trayvon was caught with an empty plastic bag with traces of marijuana in it, the boy’s family’s attorney has confirmed. A schools police report obtained by The Miami Herald specifies two items: a bag with marijuana residue and a “marijuana pipe.”
The suspension was the third for the teen. On Monday, the family also acknowledged Trayvon had earlier been suspended for tardiness and truancy."

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/sfl-reports-of-suspensions-paint-more-complicated-picture-of-trayvon-martin-20120326_1_suspensions-jewelry-report

Elley Mae
05-02-2012, 05:08 PM
The family said they were never told about a jewelry situation and their attorney suggested it was not true (why would he not have been arrested). And if he was found to have a pipe, that is a crime in itself and he would have been arrested. I never saw the pipe referenced before (the jewelry was, but it was said that the police could find no record that it was stolen). If there is a school police report, there would be an arrest for the pipe, IMO. They don't have their own legal system in the schools, suspension does not make a "crime" go away. IMO, etc. etc.

That is a good question. Let me tell you this, as a parent I would be livid if I found out that the school (or someone there) made the decision to NOT tell me that my daughter A) had items that she could not say where they came from and B) drug residue and a pipe. I would be at the board of education in a heart beat. Let's not forget he was a juvenile and not an adult when it comes to that.

csziggy
05-02-2012, 05:09 PM
I don't know. California has linkups to all pawn shops for this purpose. I would hope most states would also have it. But I don't know if it's national or not.
Florida has a stolen property database:
This database contains Florida stolen property information as reported to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement by law enforcement agencies throughout the state and authorized for release to the public. FDLE and the reporting agencies strongly recommend that no citizen take any individual action based on this information. This information is not to be used as a confirmation or probable cause that any property is stolen. Information contained herein should not be relied upon for any type of legal action. Please be advised that the identification number assigned to a particular vehicle by the manufacturer and/or owner may not be unique; duplicates may exist. Also, some identification numbers may be used on more than one vehicle. FDLE cannot represent that this information is current, active, or complete. You should verify that a stolen property report is active with your local law enforcement agency or with the reporting agency.

http://pas.fdle.state.fl.us/pas/item/displayArticleSearch.a

But apparently a system for pawn shops and police departments is privately administered and up to the local LE agencies to purchase:
LeadsOnline Brings Together Pawn Shops and Prosecutors
March 28, 2011

Tracing pawn action can make or break the case
March 28, 2011
By DOTTIE PARIS, Features Editor

MIAMI — The detectives at the Hialeah Police Department are among law enforcement officials and legal personnel using a new online tool to help solve crimes and put together cases.

Last week, the Hialeah PD recovered $2,500 in stolen jewelry after the suspect tried to sell the goods to a local pawn shop, thanks in part to a nation-wide database product called LeadsOnline.

Using item descriptions, the detectives entered information into the LeadsOnline database, and shortly thereafter were notified where the items had been sold. The suspect was located and arrested, and the stolen items were returned one day after they were stolen.

While it helped Hialeah PD to quickly track down the stolen goods, LeadsOnline has applications to the field of law.

Prosecutors and defense attorneys are using the electronic log book system to prove or disprove the whereabouts or actions of suspects involved in crime. The data provided by LeadsOnline has helped close cases ranging from simple burglary, to fraud, arson and murder.

“We’re proud that Leads Online can help catch crooks stealing from Florida’s citizens,” said LeadsOnline president and chief executive officer Dave Finley. “And we have helped prosecutors in their continual battle against perpetrators who commit a range of crimes.”

More: http://www.thefloridalawjournal.com/2011/03/leadsonline-brings-together-pawn-shops-and-prosecutors/

LambChop
05-02-2012, 05:10 PM
Are we blaming the victims, and now even GZ for the burglaries, were the young black men breaking in not to blame at all???

Not blaming them just seems natural for someone to inform them of steps they can take to prevent being a crime victim. It's called crime prevention. Most of the larger cities provide a service through their local LE that advises people how to keep their homes safe, dead bolt locks, charlie bars, etc. It would certainly prevent breakins if those thiefs were, in fact, breaking in through the sliders. "An ounce of prevention."

GZ method of chasing, following, etc. did not turn out too well for him......nor for TM and his family. TM was suppose to feel safe within that community. It was why Mr. Martin's gf moved there. GZ was the coodinator yet did he request people protect their properties by making these relatively cost free changes to protect their homes. Or was he more interested in "patrolling".

It makes us wonder was GZ really interested in crime prevention to "to catch a thief". jmo

Lovelymountains
05-02-2012, 05:10 PM
And from the information he was giving dispatch he wanted them to think Trayon Martin was a danger to him, yet he followed him and even hunted him down...IMHO.. I'm not convinced his call to dispatch wasn't just a setup, an excuse to kill someone and use SYG law to get away with murder...JMHO.

ETA Wonder WHY he didn't tell disptach he was the one who had a gun in his waistband and had hollow point bullets to stop Trayvon M dead in his tracks...JMHO

I,too, think that GZ was wanting to kill someone. Those hollow point bullets expand upon entering the body to cause the most tissue damage. IMO GZ felt as if he were an insignificant little man until he stuck that gun in his belt. Same as walking around with that big ol' dog. Made him important. Made him somebody. "Made him a contender." Well, IMO he is still an insignificant little man except he will soon be on trial for murder. I believe Trayvon Martin's life was over the very moment GZ exited his truck. All IMO, of course.

I happen to be a member of the NRA and, in fact, I own a revolver. A .38 police special. I would never dream of carrying it. I have it in a drawer by my bed. I have it because I live alone. The Constitution of the US guarantees my right to own this gun. It does not guarantee my right to murder someone. I wouldn't give two cents to GZ's defense fund.

kimpage
05-02-2012, 05:11 PM
I'm going to share a story. I have a near 15-year-old son who's been treated by a psychologist for ADHD (H=impulsivity) every 2 weeks since he was 11. My husband and I have been dealing with his drug abuse (you name it, he claims he's done it) for more than 18 months now. He's in rehab through Juvenile Drug Court (JDC). His first 6 months in JDC he was popping positive every drug test. He was sent to detox for 5 days and stayed clean for 2 months before he was sent back to detox then to residential treatment by order of the court. During his time in residential, he's been sent to detention twice (5 days each). Right before his second detention, he was put on Lexapro and began the Focalin XR again. Since then, he's turned around significantly that he'll likely graduate rehab by the end of the month.

My son has been suspended 3 times since 8th grade. He's a troubled youth for sure but we've tried every punishment (except corporal) to get him onto the right track.

My son taught me some local gang signs today and tells me they don't just represent gangbangers, but "hoods" (neighborhoods). He has a FB account that we monitor. We've had to remove several offensive posts and remind him that his female cousins (tween/teen) and some of his friends parents (who also monitor their FB accounts) are offended by his message. He uses vulgarities (especially when playing XBox) and has been known to flip the bird. That said, my son IS NOT A THUG!

Those of you who wish to portray Trayvon as a thug, pointing to his tweets/FB posts and his suspensions as "evidence", I'm hear to remind you that those of us with bird flipping, gang sign displaying, vulgarity spewing, hoodie-wearing/pants sagging, less than perfect teens ARE NOT BUYING IT!

BTW, Z and I have been following this case closely on his home passes/drs appointments and, according to him, Trayvon seems like a typical teen dealing with their peer environment. Their peer and online personas are not representative of who they really are. He also says "Pray 4 Tray!"
Wonderful post!!!! Thank You!

Elley Mae
05-02-2012, 05:11 PM
:what: Dear Lord......are you expecting the Bin ladens?

No :floorlaugh: Our Troops took care of that.

vlpate
05-02-2012, 05:11 PM
Regardless of his age, there is a juvenile justice system and it has been confirmed that Trayvon had no record whatsoever. Can't say the same for GZ and on his MySpace he even talks about a crime he got away with while his friends "got a year."

No, he doesn't. The operative word in that often referred to "about me" is "can". I dont know how many times I've heard someone say they have biker friends they can call to "take care" of this or that. Why would anyone go to jail for someone else for a year, that's sort of ludicrous unless you are in the Mafia.

JMO

Just K
05-02-2012, 05:13 PM
And never ever reach for your waist band at any time. This has been used by multiple perpetrators (LE included) in homicides of an unarmed victim. Better to stick both your arms in the air with open palms. Or may be a bullet proof vest
for high risk kids should be standard attire when venturing out on the streets..
I would add if anything below the waistband is irritating you...like a wedgie, or your pants are in need of a hike or you just have an itch...don't even think about adjusting anything down there.

suzihawk
05-02-2012, 05:15 PM
No one is blaming the victim. Many are tired of the lopsided picture that has been painted of these two from day one. NEITHER was an angel, they both had things in their past, TM'm much more recent. If he were a year older, he's have had a record for the vandalism and police would not have taken "I don't know" for an answer when asked where he got all the jewelry. He didn't do anything horrible, but he wasn't the innocent child that he is constantly being made out to be. His past shows that he could have been up to something - regardless of whether or not GZ was aware of what he'd done previously.

It's funny how GZ's past matters when it comes to this tragedy, but he didn't deserve to be beat up by TM because of it. None of us know, not even the prosecutor, if TM was acting suspicious, and we don't know who threw first punch, so one opinion is as good as the other in this case. JMO


GZ's past matters because he's the defendant accused of the second degree murder of Trayvon.

Donjeta
05-02-2012, 05:15 PM
No, he doesn't. The operative word in that often referred to "about me" is "can". I dont know how many times I've heard someone say they have biker friends they can call to "take care" of this or that. Why would anyone go to jail for someone else for a year, that's sort of ludicrous unless you are in the Mafia.

JMO

Wishful thinking maybe? Oh to be a king again and to have a lot of boys to do my dirty work for me...

LambChop
05-02-2012, 05:16 PM
That is a good question. Let me tell you this, as a parent I would be livid if I found out that the school (or someone there) made the decision to NOT tell me that my daughter A) had items that she could not say where they came from and B) drug residue and a pipe. I would be at the board of education in a heart beat. Let's not forget he was a juvenile and not an adult when it comes to that.

I believe the parents knew about the pot. My guess is because the jewelry story ended the school was able to locate the owner of the jewelry and there was no need to tell TM's parents because the issue was resolved. If it involved another student the school may have felt it was not necessary to involve TM's parents. The very fact the story ends abruptly without explanation and TM's parents were left out of the loop tells me it was resolved and the school is not at liberty to release the other student's name. jmo

katydid23
05-02-2012, 05:20 PM
The family said they were never told about a jewelry situation and their attorney suggested it was not true (why would he not have been arrested). And if he was found to have a pipe, that is a crime in itself and he would have been arrested. I never saw the pipe referenced before (the jewelry was, but it was said that the police could find no record that it was stolen). If there is a school police report, there would be an arrest for the pipe, IMO. They don't have their own legal system in the schools, suspension does not make a "crime" go away. IMO, etc. etc.

There would NOT be an arrest for a pipe. If we arrested every 17 yr old found with a pot pipe there would be no room for any real criminals. I worked in an inner city high school and I NEVER EVER saw a kid arrested for drug paraphenelia. They would be sent home on suspension, pretty automatic. But no arrest unless drugs were present as well.

And how could the attorney say it was not true? Did the school write false info in his federally mandated school records? That is a federal crime for an administrator to put false information in a students permanent record file. Did Crump really say that?

LambChop
05-02-2012, 05:20 PM
No, he doesn't. The operative word in that often referred to "about me" is "can". I dont know how many times I've heard someone say they have biker friends they can call to "take care" of this or that. Why would anyone go to jail for someone else for a year, that's sort of ludicrous unless you are in the Mafia.

JMO

LOL....I don't know because apparently GZ wasn't going to serve time for anything he was responsible for. I think GZ liked to brag. jmo

vlpate
05-02-2012, 05:20 PM
Not blaming them just seems natural for someone to inform them of steps they can take to prevent being a crime victim. It's called crime prevention. Most of the larger cities provide a service through their local LE that advises people how to keep their homes safe, dead bolt locks, charlie bars, etc. It would certainly prevent breakins if those thiefs were, in fact, breaking in through the sliders. "An ounce of prevention."

GZ method of chasing, following, etc. did not turn out too well for him......nor for TM and his family. TM was suppose to feel safe within that community. It was why Mr. Martin's gf moved there. GZ was the coodinator yet did he request people protect their properties by making these relatively cost free changes to protect their homes. Or was he more interested in "patrolling".

It makes us wonder was GZ really interested in crime prevention to "to catch a thief". jmo
FYI, it is a law that a pin lock or charlie bar be installed in all patio doors - all front exterior doors must have a privacy lock. He should not have had to tell anyone to do these things. The thugs breaking in are to blame, they had no right going into someone's home and taking things that didn't belong to them. People leave their patio doors open, with the screen shut during nice weather, do they not have a right to do that without worrying about thugs? Yes, they have that right - the thugs are the ones without the rights on the private property and the police don't have time to keep an eye on it 24/7. JMO

suzihawk
05-02-2012, 05:21 PM
I'm going to share a story. I have a near 15-year-old son who's been treated by a psychologist for ADHD (H=impulsivity) every 2 weeks since he was 11. My husband and I have been dealing with his drug abuse (you name it, he claims he's done it) for more than 18 months now. He's in rehab through Juvenile Drug Court (JDC). His first 6 months in JDC he was popping positive every drug test. He was sent to detox for 5 days and stayed clean for 2 months before he was sent back to detox then to residential treatment by order of the court. During his time in residential, he's been sent to detention twice (5 days each). Right before his second detention, he was put on Lexapro and began the Focalin XR again. Since then, he's turned around significantly that he'll likely graduate rehab by the end of the month.

My son has been suspended 3 times since 8th grade. He's a troubled youth for sure but we've tried every punishment (except corporal) to get him onto the right track.

My son taught me some local gang signs today and tells me they don't just represent gangbangers, but "hoods" (neighborhoods). He has a FB account that we monitor. We've had to remove several offensive posts and remind him that his female cousins (tween/teen) and some of his friends parents (who also monitor their FB accounts) are offended by his message. He uses vulgarities (especially when playing XBox) and has been known to flip the bird. That said, my son IS NOT A THUG!

Those of you who wish to portray Trayvon as a thug, pointing to his tweets/FB posts and his suspensions as "evidence", I'm hear to remind you that those of us with bird flipping, gang sign displaying, vulgarity spewing, hoodie-wearing/pants sagging, less than perfect teens ARE NOT BUYING IT!

BTW, Z and I have been following this case closely on his home passes/drs appointments and, according to him, Trayvon seems like a typical teen dealing with their peer environment. Their peer and online personas are not representative of who they really are. He also says "Pray 4 Tray!"


Hugs for you and your son. :grouphug:

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 05:22 PM
No one is blaming the victim. Many are tired of the lopsided picture that has been painted of these two from day one. NEITHER was an angel, they both had things in their past, TM'm much more recent. If he were a year older, he's have had a record for the vandalism and police would not have taken "I don't know" for an answer when asked where he got all the jewelry. He didn't do anything horrible, but he wasn't the innocent child that he is constantly being made out to be. His past shows that he could have been up to something - regardless of whether or not GZ was aware of what he'd done previously.

It's funny how GZ's past matters when it comes to this tragedy, but he didn't deserve to be beat up by TM because of it. None of us know, not even the prosecutor, if TM was acting suspicious, and we don't know who threw first punch, so one opinion is as good as the other in this case. JMO

TM was not armed. GZ was. I have yet to see those serious injuries that GZ and his propaganda machine are claiming. My son had more serious wounds than that from a fight at a party. He was not armed. GZ's injuries were not serious enough to warrant anything more than first aid. TM was beyond first aid. If TM threw the first punch GZ had the right to punch back. Not to kill him.

vlpate
05-02-2012, 05:22 PM
LOL....I don't know because apparently GZ wasn't going to serve time for anything he was responsible for. I think GZ liked to brag. jmo

I'll agree with that - part of being young sometimes (he was 21 at the time).

Just K
05-02-2012, 05:25 PM
He'd been there often. It was a straight shot. How does one "case" a house without "looking" at it.

He knew where the 7-11 was and he had been to the community often enough that the kids there looked forward to his visits, according to this article. http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article1221799.ece


"Trayvon Martin lived with his dad, who resides in the Miami area, and had visited his dad's girlfriend at the Retreat several times before. The kids in the neighborhood always looked forward to playing football with him."

Well, if that is true then I wonder why the ever vigilant NW captain wasn't aware of who TM was. (Come to think of it...maybe he was...) Obviously, he didn't even begin to know who belonged in his neighborhood and who didn't.

katydid23
05-02-2012, 05:25 PM
I'm going to share a story. I have a near 15-year-old son who's been treated by a psychologist for ADHD (H=impulsivity) every 2 weeks since he was 11. My husband and I have been dealing with his drug abuse (you name it, he claims he's done it) for more than 18 months now. He's in rehab through Juvenile Drug Court (JDC). His first 6 months in JDC he was popping positive every drug test. He was sent to detox for 5 days and stayed clean for 2 months before he was sent back to detox then to residential treatment by order of the court. During his time in residential, he's been sent to detention twice (5 days each). Right before his second detention, he was put on Lexapro and began the Focalin XR again. Since then, he's turned around significantly that he'll likely graduate rehab by the end of the month.

My son has been suspended 3 times since 8th grade. He's a troubled youth for sure but we've tried every punishment (except corporal) to get him onto the right track.

My son taught me some local gang signs today and tells me they don't just represent gangbangers, but "hoods" (neighborhoods). He has a FB account that we monitor. We've had to remove several offensive posts and remind him that his female cousins (tween/teen) and some of his friends parents (who also monitor their FB accounts) are offended by his message. He uses vulgarities (especially when playing XBox) and has been known to flip the bird. That said, my son IS NOT A THUG!

Those of you who wish to portray Trayvon as a thug, pointing to his tweets/FB posts and his suspensions as "evidence", I'm hear to remind you that those of us with bird flipping, gang sign displaying, vulgarity spewing, hoodie-wearing/pants sagging, less than perfect teens ARE NOT BUYING IT!

BTW, Z and I have been following this case closely on his home passes/drs appointments and, according to him, Trayvon seems like a typical teen dealing with their peer environment. Their peer and online personas are not representative of who they really are. He also says "Pray 4 Tray!"

BBM

I agree. Does this go for Zimmerman's MySpace posts as well ?

AngelWings444
05-02-2012, 05:26 PM
Almost 100 pages...

I think we need a new thread and a document dump. :waitasec:

So, we are back to the victim's school records, and an empty marijuana bag. Pretty sad. :banghead:

vlpate
05-02-2012, 05:27 PM
I believe the parents knew about the pot. My guess is because the jewelry story ended the school was able to locate the owner of the jewelry and there was no need to tell TM's parents because the issue was resolved. If it involved another student the school may have felt it was not necessary to involve TM's parents. The very fact the story ends abruptly without explanation and TM's parents were left out of the loop tells me it was resolved and the school is not at liberty to release the other student's name. jmo

It didn't end abruptly, they sent photos of the jewelry to Miami PD and suspended him for the vandalism.

It is naive to believe Crump wouldn't have already slapped a lawsuit on the school for putting out such an inflammatory statement about a child who they feel was murdered. In a New York minute, he would have. JMO

sleonardelli
05-02-2012, 05:28 PM
There would NOT be an arrest for a pipe. If we arrested every 17 yr old found with a pot pipe there would be no room for any real criminals. I worked in an inner city high school and I NEVER EVER saw a kid arrested for drug paraphenelia. They would be sent home on suspension, pretty automatic. But no arrest unless drugs were present as well.

And how could the attorney say it was not true? Did the school write false info in his federally mandated school records? That is a federal crime for an administrator to put false information in a students permanent record file. Did Crump really say that?

I'm here to tell you (since that's exactly what happened in my son's case) that yes they WILL be arrested. Schools have zero tolerance for drugs or paraphenalia. He would go through the Juvenile Drug Court program in FL.

Kimberlyd125
05-02-2012, 05:29 PM
Hollow point bullets are often times used for target shooting.
IMO that may be why they were in his gun.

Maybe he went target shooting at some point not long before the end of Feb.

Hollow point bullets are perfectly legal, no matter why he had them.

JMO

sleonardelli
05-02-2012, 05:30 PM
BBM

I agree. Does this go for Zimmerman's MySpace posts as well ?

IMO, NO! GZ is the defendent in this case and was LEGALLY an adult at that time.

Elley Mae
05-02-2012, 05:30 PM
Almost 100 pages...

I think we need a new thread and a document dump. :waitasec:

So, we are back to the victim's school records, and an empty marijuana bag. Pretty sad. :banghead:

and a pipe

m00c0w
05-02-2012, 05:30 PM
Unless a person is in a consistently threatened position (such as a police officer) imo there is no need to carry a concealed weapon.
Implying violent crime doesn't happen?

You're fine to not exercise your right to defend yourself, but there's no need to make sweeping generalizations like that. There are plenty of instances in which a criminal would have gladly taken someone's life for mere property and the tables were turned because the victim was carrying.

pcrum12
05-02-2012, 05:31 PM
:rocker:No one is blaming the victim. Many are tired of the lopsided picture that has been painted of these two from day one. NEITHER was an angel, they both had things in their past, TM'm much more recent. If he were a year older, he's have had a record for the vandalism and police would not have taken "I don't know" for an answer when asked where he got all the jewelry. He didn't do anything horrible, but he wasn't the innocent child that he is constantly being made out to be. His past shows that he could have been up to something - regardless of whether or not GZ was aware of what he'd done previously.

It's funny how GZ's past matters when it comes to this tragedy, but he didn't deserve to be beat up by TM because of it. None of us know, not even the prosecutor, if TM was acting suspicious, and we don't know who threw first punch, so one opinion is as good as the other in this case. JMO

m00c0w
05-02-2012, 05:33 PM
:what: Dear Lord......are you expecting the Bin ladens?

It's actually true. FBI tests show that a .223 round is least likely to over-penetrate because of how it tumbles. All rounds left the outside walls of the test house except the .223 rounds, IIRC.

katydid23
05-02-2012, 05:34 PM
I'm here to tell you (since that's exactly what happened in my son's case) that yes they WILL be arrested. Schools have zero tolerance for drugs or paraphenalia. He would go through the Juvenile Drug Court program in FL.

So are you saying that the information in the school files is FALSE? Because he was not arrested.


Zero tolerance is not the same thing as an automatic arrest. I wouold have thought he would have been arrested for spray painting curse words on school property and apparently he wasn't. He would have been arrested for that at our California HS because they DO arrest for graffitti on campus. But an empty pipe, not an automatic arrest.

AngelWings444
05-02-2012, 05:34 PM
BBM

I agree. Does this go for Zimmerman's MySpace posts as well ?
I take most FB and MySpace comments/posts with a box of salt. Trayvon was a teen, and they say the dumbest things on social media sites.

In regards to GZ, he is accused of murdering Trayvon, has a history of DV, criminal record, clearly on a mission to catch the @-holes of the neighborhood etc.. His MySpace, to me, represents that his attitude on the 911 calls, website, statements through family and attorney's, aren't far from his core beliefs.

JMO

Emeralgem
05-02-2012, 05:36 PM
TM was not armed. GZ was. I have yet to see those serious injuries that GZ and his propaganda machine are claiming. My son had more serious wounds than that from a fight at a party. He was not armed. GZ's injuries were not serious enough to warrant anything more than first aid. TM was beyond first aid. If TM threw the first punch GZ had the right to punch back. Not to kill him.


BBM.. Not even a band-aid (30 minutes later) when he appeared on video at the local police station.. Imagine that...JMHO

katydid23
05-02-2012, 05:36 PM
IMO, NO! GZ is the defendent in this case and was LEGALLY an adult at that time.

So for some people, using vulgarity, gang signs and flipping the bird, is meaningless and harmless. But for others, we should judge them by it?

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 05:39 PM
No, he doesn't. The operative word in that often referred to "about me" is "can". I dont know how many times I've heard someone say they have biker friends they can call to "take care" of this or that. Why would anyone go to jail for someone else for a year, that's sort of ludicrous unless you are in the Mafia.

JMO Not really. Charles Manson is more comfortable in jail than in society. You get acclimated to it. Didn't you see "Shawshank Redemption."

katydid23
05-02-2012, 05:40 PM
I take most FB and MySpace comments/posts with a box of salt. Trayvon was a teen, and they say the dumbest things on social media sites.

In regards to GZ, he is accused of murdering Trayvon, has a history of DV, criminal record, clearly on a mission to catch the @-holes of the neighborhood etc.. His MySpace, to me, represents that his attitude on the 911 calls, website, statements through family and attorney's, aren't far from his core beliefs.

JMO

So if it fits YOUR narrative, you will use it against someone and say it really matters.

If not, then it is just harmless fluff. Got it.

suzihawk
05-02-2012, 05:41 PM
There would NOT be an arrest for a pipe. If we arrested every 17 yr old found with a pot pipe there would be no room for any real criminals. I worked in an inner city high school and I NEVER EVER saw a kid arrested for drug paraphenelia. They would be sent home on suspension, pretty automatic. But no arrest unless drugs were present as well.

And how could the attorney say it was not true? Did the school write false info in his federally mandated school records? That is a federal crime for an administrator to put false information in a students permanent record file. Did Crump really say that?

B&UBM

Exactly!

highflyer
05-02-2012, 05:42 PM
No, he doesn't. The operative word in that often referred to "about me" is "can". I dont know how many times I've heard someone say they have biker friends they can call to "take care" of this or that. Why would anyone go to jail for someone else for a year, that's sort of ludicrous unless you are in the Mafia.

JMO

That is not what the quotes says. I'd be happy to bring it to this thread if that is allowed.

AngelWings444
05-02-2012, 05:42 PM
and a pipe
Oh, please forgive me. Trayvon might have had an empty marijuana bag and a pipe. :what: To continually bring this up is asinine. It has NOTHING to do with GZ killing Trayvon that evening.

Again, pretty pathetic to keep bringing this up. IMO

suzihawk
05-02-2012, 05:45 PM
Hollow point bullets are often times used for target shooting.
IMO that may be why they were in his gun.

Maybe he went target shooting at some point not long before the end of Feb.

Hollow point bullets are perfectly legal, no matter why he had them.

JMO

I guess Trayvon was his target on 2/26/12.

highflyer
05-02-2012, 05:45 PM
BBM

I agree. Does this go for Zimmerman's MySpace posts as well ?

Trayvon is the victim. Zimmerman has been arrested for killing him. So IMO that would be no.

Gin
05-02-2012, 05:46 PM
BBM

I agree. Does this go for Zimmerman's MySpace posts as well ?

JMO/IMO
If you have specific thoughts on GZ's my space, post away on that thread....... Some of us have strong feelings about the following, and see it as fact:

An adult between the ages of 21-28 is different than a child/teen between the ages of 10-17.

I don't mind comparing apples with apples, but when GZ was a 21 year old adult, Trayvon was a 14 year old kid. When GZ was 23, Trayvon was 16...

Adults have a huge advantage over children and teens in these ways: education, life experience, job experience, the understanding of the consequences of their actions, not to mention the ability to get a license to carry a loaded gun....

jaded cat
05-02-2012, 05:46 PM
First, I don't think asking someone what you are doing in the neighborhood is a *nice* question to ask, necessarily. And I would bet it wasn't asked particularly nicely in this case. Certainly different than just saying hi, how're you doing? Or, to take suzi's classic example, can you help me find my puppy?

Second, what I would tell my little kid v. my teenaged son might be quite different. But I don't have a teenaged son, so I don't know that yet. What I do know, is that he will be unlikely to listen to me no matter what I say lol

All I can say is that you can't prepare your kids for every eventuality, so all you can do is teach them to use good judgment in the particular circumstance, and provide them with examples of what they might do if such and such happens. Honestly, and to your point, I don't think the precise scenario of this case is something that any parent previously would have thought to provide specific advice about. I just think that, given what is undisputed (at this point) about the exchange between Trayvon and George, that the best thing to do may have been for Trayvon just to have identified himself, and also that the argument that he was in legit fear of a random psychopath doesn't make too much sense to me under the circumstances.

jmo


Again, you're putting in the onus on TM. Why couldn't GZ simply have said, "Hey, I'm with the NW. You look like you may be lost, can I help you find your way home?" It's quite beyond the pale to put the responsibility on a teenager vs. a grown man.

AngelWings444
05-02-2012, 05:46 PM
So if it fits YOUR narrative, you will use it against someone and say it really matters.

If not, then it is just harmless fluff. Got it.
If I was a killer, then I would expect my Facebook/Myspace rants would come into play. They always do when someone has killed another. But, if I were an innocent victim, walking home from the store with nothing but skittles, an ice tea and a cell phone, I wouldn't expect my Facebook/Myspace would be used, and my own writings to help get my murderer off.

GZ's MySpace may be harmless fluff, but it kind of fits into the person he is. JMO

Phoenixfla
05-02-2012, 05:49 PM
No one is blaming the victim. Many are tired of the lopsided picture that has been painted of these two from day one. NEITHER was an angel, they both had things in their past, TM'm much more recent. If he were a year older, he's have had a record for the vandalism and police would not have taken "I don't know" for an answer when asked where he got all the jewelry. He didn't do anything horrible, but he wasn't the innocent child that he is constantly being made out to be. His past shows that he could have been up to something - regardless of whether or not GZ was aware of what he'd done previously.

It's funny how GZ's past matters when it comes to this tragedy, but he didn't deserve to be beat up by TM because of it. None of us know, not even the prosecutor, if TM was acting suspicious, and we don't know who threw first punch, so one opinion is as good as the other in this case. JMO

Great post. My thoughts exactly.

pcrum12
05-02-2012, 05:50 PM
I'm here to tell you (since that's exactly what happened in my son's case) that yes they WILL be arrested. Schools have zero tolerance for drugs or paraphenalia. He would go through the Juvenile Drug Court program in FL.

Well I have no idea about FL but here in KY, my nephew was caught with paraphernalia and he was NOT arrested but suspended for 3 whole days. He was also caught with a pocket knife he forgot to leave at home at another time and the Police was called and he was charged. That was a big deal! In my naive way of thinking at the time, I was definitely questioning the difference. Lol.

Phoenixfla
05-02-2012, 05:50 PM
Oh, please forgive me. Trayvon might have had an empty marijuana bag and a pipe. :what: To continually bring this up is asinine. It has NOTHING to do with GZ killing Trayvon that evening.

Again, pretty pathetic to keep bringing this up. IMO

Think it may come up in the trial?

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 05:52 PM
Implying violent crime doesn't happen?

You're fine to not exercise your right to defend yourself, but there's no need to make sweeping generalizations like that. There are plenty of instances in which a criminal would have gladly taken someone's life for mere property and the tables were turned because the victim was carrying.

You are talking about ROBBERY. GZ was concerned about BURGLARY. By definition robbery is a violent crime (as it involves persons) and burglary is not (because it is the stealing of items). Burglars are more concerned with getting in and getting out quick. GZ was after violent-type criminals and decided ON HIS OWN and against advice that he was after a violent criminal.

Lest we forget, Who was following whom? By that alone, it makes GZ the aggressor.

Phoenixfla
05-02-2012, 05:54 PM
If I was a killer, then I would expect my Facebook/Myspace rants would come into play. They always do when someone has killed another. But, if I were an innocent victim, walking home from the store with nothing but skittles, an ice tea and a cell phone, I wouldn't expect my Facebook/Myspace would be used, and my own writings to help get my murderer off.

GZ's MySpace may be harmless fluff, but it kind of fits into the person he is. JMO

We don't know yet that TM was an innocent victim.

jaded cat
05-02-2012, 05:56 PM
BBM

I do not agree that it is a logical conclusion that no police report means there is no crime. There are many crimes that go unreported for various reasons. Not reporting something does not mean it never happened. imo

And I didn't see anyone accusing TM of stealing the jewelry in another state, or of actually stealing anything. But the question still remains, what was he doing with women's diamond earrings and rings in his school backpack? If it did have an innocent explanation, why not just tell the school who it belonged to?

And there is a reason it is important info. NOBODY says he deserved to be shot that night. Nobody. The question about his school suspensions goes to his level of 'suspicious' behavior that night. At school he trespassed onto closed area and spray painted graffitti and he MAY have had stolen jewelry in his possession, so is it possible that he MAY have been doing a similar pattern of suspicious behavior that night? I think it is fair for the defense to ask that question, imo.

This whole line of topic is irrelevant! Why are we still beating this poor dead horse into dust? The jewelry has nothing to do with this shooting. :maddening:

Just K
05-02-2012, 05:56 PM
Thank you. I still don't see anything in there that says its okay to throw out unfounded accusations about TM.

Exactly, and from what I read in the Miami Herald, there was no source cited for the alleged jewelry incident and nowhere did it say that any of this information about his school suspensions came from his school records.

katydid23
05-02-2012, 05:56 PM
You are talking about ROBBERY. GZ was concerned about BURGLARY. By definition robbery is a violent crime (as it involves persons) and burglary is not (because it is the stealing of items). Burglars are more concerned with getting in and getting out quick. GZ was after violent-type criminals and decided ON HIS OWN and against advice that he was after a violent criminal.

Lest we forget, Who was following whom? By that alone, it makes GZ the aggressor.

One of the home break ins happened to a woman who was at home with her infant when the two young black males broke in. She locked herself into her baby's room and talked to the 911 dispatcher, and was terrified. In that case, it was robbery, not burglary, because she was present in the home. We don't know if they knew she was there or not.

KateNY
05-02-2012, 05:58 PM
Think it may come up in the trial?

Good question, wonder if it will

Can you see voir dire of the jury


Did you ever inhale....

:what:

Phoenixfla
05-02-2012, 05:58 PM
This whole line of topic is irrelevant! Why are we still beating this poor dead horse into dust? The jewelry has nothing to do with this shooting. :maddening:

Maybe not to you, but if TM has a history of questionable decisions, he may have be perceived as more inclined to have initiated the physical altercation.

sleonardelli
05-02-2012, 05:59 PM
So for some people, using vulgarity, gang signs and flipping the bird, is meaningless and harmless. But for others, we should judge them by it?

According to my teen, this is typical of the TEEN culture and their peer environment.

m00c0w
05-02-2012, 06:00 PM
You are talking about ROBBERY. GZ was concerned about BURGLARY. By definition robbery is a violent crime (as it involves persons) and burglary is not (because it is the stealing of items). Burglars are more concerned with getting in and getting out quick. GZ was after violent-type criminals and decided ON HIS OWN and against advice that he was after a violent criminal.

Lest we forget, Who was following whom? By that alone, it makes GZ the aggressor.
Who said anything about specific crimes?

"Unless a person is in a consistently threatened position (such as a police officer) imo there is no need to carry a concealed weapon."

Nothing about Zimmerman, crimes, robbery, or burglary in that.

AngelWings444
05-02-2012, 06:00 PM
Think it may come up in the trial?
I think it may come up, but I don't think the judge should or will allow it to come in. JMO

tehcloser
05-02-2012, 06:00 PM
Good question, wonder if it will

Can you see voir dire of the jury


Did you ever inhale....
:what:


Define inhale...........:woohoo:

jaded cat
05-02-2012, 06:01 PM
And what if GZ had asked him his name and TM sucker punched him?

And what if the sky was green? Both questions can't be answered unless we take the word of someone who has a vested interest in the outcome.

vlpate
05-02-2012, 06:01 PM
and the gf says Trayvon is going away from George as well.

The girlfriend also said TM "lost" GZ.

katydid23
05-02-2012, 06:01 PM
This whole line of topic is irrelevant! Why are we still beating this poor dead horse into dust? The jewelry has nothing to do with this shooting. :maddening:

I guess because people are wondering WHY GZ was suspicious of TM that night. And so people are looking to see if there would be any reason for him to be suspicious of any possible actions that night. The defense is probably going to go there themselves imo.

Phoenixfla
05-02-2012, 06:01 PM
I think it may come up, but I don't think the judge should or will allow it to come in. JMO

I disagree. See my post above regarding questionable decisions.

jaded cat
05-02-2012, 06:03 PM
Maybe not to you, but if TM has a history of questionable decisions, he may have be perceived as more inclined to have initiated the physical altercation.

Were any of those crimes violent? Does a bunch of young men spraying graffiti on a locker rise to the level of violent? Wow, I hung out with hoodlums in high school. Regular thugs, my HS band!

sleonardelli
05-02-2012, 06:03 PM
Maybe not to you, but if TM has a history of questionable decisions, he may have be perceived as more inclined to have initiated the physical altercation.

NON-VIOLENT bad decisions UNLIKE GZ.

vlpate
05-02-2012, 06:04 PM
I take most FB and MySpace comments/posts with a box of salt. Trayvon was a teen, and they say the dumbest things on social media sites.

In regards to GZ, he is accused of murdering Trayvon, has a history of DV, criminal record, clearly on a mission to catch the @-holes of the neighborhood etc.. His MySpace, to me, represents that his attitude on the 911 calls, website, statements through family and attorney's, aren't far from his core beliefs.

JMO

That's very confusing.

katydid23
05-02-2012, 06:04 PM
According to my teen, this is typical of the TEEN culture and their peer environment.

I agree. MY DD as a teen used to post things that freaked me out. Then I would ask her and they would be lyrics from hip hop songs or lines from Sex and the City or some popular movie.

I am just saying that we should have the same grain of salt when we read GZ's old posts. It is only fair, imo.

rotterdam
05-02-2012, 06:04 PM
That is a good question. Let me tell you this, as a parent I would be livid if I found out that the school (or someone there) made the decision to NOT tell me that my daughter A) had items that she could not say where they came from and B) drug residue and a pipe. I would be at the board of education in a heart beat. Let's not forget he was a juvenile and not an adult when it comes to that.

Yes, I would be livid too. But mostly, I would be more livid that any of that info was released to the media about a minor. And I would not rest till the culprit (s)that released that private info to media was removed from the school. Just a matter of principle.
Guess the Martins are a lot nicer than me.

jaded cat
05-02-2012, 06:06 PM
BEM: Here's what he said, since we are referencing the 911 call as being what actually happened now:

GZ: Hey, we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there's this real suspicious guy retreat view circle, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good or he's on drugs or something -- he's just walking around, looking about..
Dispatcher: ... and this guy's white, black, or hispanic?
GZ: He looks black..
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
GZ: Yeah, a dark hoodie, like a gray hoodie and either jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. (unintelligible)..he's just staring
Dispatcher: Oh, he's just walking around the area?
GZ: Looking at all the houses

I kinda new to the area, not sure of my way around. What other way am I going to use to find my way home? Just because GZ SAID what he SAID, doesn't make it true. There are 1000s of definitions of real suspicious. What the hell is "looking around"? Only in GZ paranoid, profiling mind is that suspicious.

vlpate
05-02-2012, 06:06 PM
NON-VIOLENT bad decisions UNLIKE GZ.

Is it not considered violent to break someone's nose and bash their head onto cement - and not letting them retreat?

Phoenixfla
05-02-2012, 06:06 PM
Were any of those crimes violent? Does a bunch of young men spraying graffiti on a locker rise to the level of violent? Wow, I hung out with hoodlums in high school. Regular thugs, my HS band!

So you would be looking for someone to belong to a fight club or something to be considered violent?

pcrum12
05-02-2012, 06:07 PM
IMO, NO! GZ is the defendent in this case and was LEGALLY an adult at that time.

I'm not saying you are wrong at all but I guess I have a different side of view when looking at a 17 yr old teenager. Most 17 yr old teenagers I've ever known act like, they know it all, defy authority at times, want to be treated like an adult, but act very immature doing it. lol. I'm not saying all, but ALOT. And our Juvenile Detention Center, Camps, Homes, etc. are just packed with teenagers that commit felony crimes and think they know it all and are INVINCIBLE. That is just my take on that, I'm sure not everyone's. Again, JMO.

In a case such as this, we have no idea what actually transpired in the critical moments leading up to the shooting. Therefore, IMO, it is crucial to look at the backgrounds of BOTH in order to make a fair judgement as to character. In weighing what evidence (witness statements) that has come forth so far, it is a mix as to who was on bottom and who was screaming for help. So far, to me, that's a wash. And as far as I recall, there has not been any witness to date that has stated they seen who STARTED the confrontation. Which brings me back to character. I believe character, will play a huge part of this trial no matter which is the deceased, which is of age, etc. All JMHO.

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 06:08 PM
We don't know yet that TM was an innocent victim. We know he was walking home. We know he was unarmed. He can never tell us his side of the story but GZ and his friends (who were not there) are sure telling a lot of stories and they keep changing. So who can stand up for TM. The justice system. An unarmed teen was killed by an adult who was carrying a concealed weapon. The only armor that TM had was his fists - not a fair fight with a gun.

highflyer
05-02-2012, 06:10 PM
Maybe not to you, but if TM has a history of questionable decisions, he may have be perceived as more inclined to have initiated the physical altercation.

Questionable decisions? GZ has a history of questionable decisions. Documented. So using your logic GZ would be the one perceived as more inclined to have initiated the physical altercation. IMO

BiancaS
05-02-2012, 06:11 PM
So are you saying that the information in the school files is FALSE? Because he was not arrested.


Zero tolerance is not the same thing as an automatic arrest. I wouold have thought he would have been arrested for spray painting curse words on school property and apparently he wasn't. He would have been arrested for that at our California HS because they DO arrest for graffitti on campus. But an empty pipe, not an automatic arrest.

I live in Florida, but I think in any State it would be against policy to release school records to a newspaper (especially for a juvenile!!). Funny how things just "leak out" in this case, isn't it?? So, no, I don't think the information in the records is false, I think the records are fake!!! Schools would NEVER open themselves up to that kind of liability. Nor would they take a "crime" into their own hands. The whole thing just stinks and I don't believe it for a second. MOO.

mercuriod
05-02-2012, 06:12 PM
No, he doesn't. The operative word in that often referred to "about me" is "can". I dont know how many times I've heard someone say they have biker friends they can call to "take care" of this or that. Why would anyone go to jail for someone else for a year, that's sort of ludicrous unless you are in the Mafia.

JMO


Or a gang, happens all the time!

sleonardelli
05-02-2012, 06:13 PM
Is it not considered violent to break someone's nose and bash their head onto cement - and not letting them retreat?

So I guess, in your opinion, that Trayvon had no right to defend himself! We don't even know if GZ was holding Trayvon to keep him from retreating. If those were Trayvon's screams as two professionals have indicated they weren't GZ's then perhaps he was trying to get away.

Just K
05-02-2012, 06:14 PM
Another day and no documents released?

sleonardelli
05-02-2012, 06:14 PM
So you would be looking for someone to belong to a fight club or something to be considered violent?

AFAIK, the YouTube account has NOT been AUTHENTICATED.

Gaia713
05-02-2012, 06:15 PM
Is it not considered violent to break someone's nose and bash their head onto cement - and not letting them retreat? We have only GZ's propaganda machine saying that. The injuries were not sufficient to require more than first aid. I've seen the head wounds and my 3-year-old scratched his head on a zipper of a hoodie and he bled more than that. I have heard many people say the calls for help came from a high pitched voice, and they were not GZ's voice patterns. TM is dead and cannot speak for himself. GZ admits to following TM AFTER being told not to do that. This is really a no-brainer. Until I see some PROOF THAT Gz HAD some serious injuries. The back of his jacket was damp and had debris on it. Did that happen when his head was ALLEGEDLY being bashed on the cement? If his head were being BASHED as he says, there would be far more serious injuries to it than the itty bitty scratches that were in the photo. TM has a hole in his chest. There was no bruising on GZ's head either in the pictures.

magnolia
05-02-2012, 06:16 PM
Thank you. I still don't see anything in there that says its okay to throw out unfounded accusations about TM.

I have not read any unfounded accusations about TM.

If you're talking about comments made in regards to the jewelry found in his backpack, I don't think those comments are without basis. Why would a teenager be in possession of 12 pieces of women's jewelry, a watch, and a screwdriver that could be used as a burglary tool? :waitasec: You tell me...