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imamaze
04-28-2012, 02:35 PM
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Thread #1 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165269&highlight=Trayvon) Thread #2 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166351&highlight=Trayvon+martin)
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Thread #7 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167001&highlight=Trayvon+Martin) Thread #8 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167151&highlight=y%2Fo+teen)
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vlpate
04-28-2012, 02:44 PM
Brought over from previous thread...

Out of curiosity, would it be your opinion that the bulk of the $54K that has been spent was also since the bond hearing?
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #34

In my opinion the money was sent to GZ without stipulation from the sender and it's none of my business what he spent it on or if he's even spent it. Why would I care? He turned over $150,000 to his attorney - he could easily have lied about how much he had that wasn't in the paypal account.

In a recent article there were a lot of pictures of GZ that we hadn't seen before, maybe those pictures were sold to raise money after the bond hearing? If so, this too shall be disclosed for the curious.

It's not that I don't get the curiosity, I'd like to know what the Martin's did with the $35,000 + collected for them during the first rally. I'm assuming they used it for living expenses since neither have gone back to work in 2 months. In that same two months the Zimmerman's had to live as well, so after $5,000 for bail, sounds about right. JMO

vlpate
04-28-2012, 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by vlpate
BEM: Exactly. 30% of the community is AA - I'm sure they walk around all the time, so why did TM stand apart? Why did TM look suspicious to GZ? Maybe he wasn't just walking around? The black males he had called in as suspicious previously were up to something, as was proved later by their arrest. I think GZ knew the difference between "just walking around" and acting "suspicious".

His rights did not stop when he got out of his truck. He had a right to get out of his truck. He had a right to see where the suspicious male was running to - he had a right to watch him. TM, on the other hand, had no right to confront and punch GZ and hold him down. From the evidence we do have, TM was breaking the law at that point. The rest will be up to a jury to decide. IMO
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7847281&postcount=1046

mercuriod
BBM: Please link this "evidence we do have".
Do you need a link to the picture of GZ's bleeding head, or the video of the funeral director saying there were no marks on TM? The eyewitness who saw GZ on the ground beneath TM, yelling for help? The police report? I apologize, I'm not sure what it is you haven't seen?

mercuriod
04-28-2012, 02:55 PM
Bringing over from last thread

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #34

vlpate vlpate is online now
Child Advocate and Activist

BEM: Exactly. 30% of the community is AA - I'm sure they walk around all the time, so why did TM stand apart? Why did TM look suspicious to GZ? Maybe he wasn't just walking around? The black males he had called in as suspicious previously were up to something, as was proved later by their arrest. I think GZ knew the difference between "just walking around" and acting "suspicious".

His rights did not stop when he got out of his truck. He had a right to get out of his truck. He had a right to see where the suspicious male was running to - he had a right to watch him. TM, on the other hand, had no right to confront and punch GZ and hold him down. From the evidence we do have, TM was breaking the law at that point. The rest will be up to a jury to decide. IMO
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BBM: Link please to "the evidence we do have".

LambChop
04-28-2012, 02:56 PM
Brought over from previous thread...


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #34 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7847172&postcount=1037)

In my opinion the money was sent to GZ without stipulation from the sender and it's none of my business what he spent it on or if he's even spent it. Why would I care? He turned over $150,000 to his attorney - he could easily have lied about how much he had that wasn't in the paypal account.

In a recent article there were a lot of pictures of GZ that we hadn't seen before, maybe those pictures were sold to raise money after the bond hearing? If so, this too shall be disclosed for the curious.

It's not that I don't get the curiosity, I'd like to know what the Martin's did with the $35,000 + collected for them during the first rally. I'm assuming they used it for living expenses since neither have gone back to work in 2 months. In that same two months the Zimmerman's had to live as well, so after $5,000 for bail, sounds about right. JMO

I believe there are only two people that GZ has to answer to right now.....the judge and SA. The Martin's aren't asking to have their bail lowered because they have no money. They are also innocent victims in this crime. No disputes over money GZ made only that he never reported it. What the Martin's do isn't important because TM has not been charged with a crime and TM at this point is considered innocent of any crime as there is no evidence one was ever committed by TM. If it is good for the goose it's certainly good for the gander. jmo

HiHater
04-28-2012, 03:00 PM
Does anyone know if the Martin family ever asked for money? We know GZ asked his supporters directly, did the Martin family?

Also, when GZ is found guilty :moo:, would that 200k be impacted by Son of Sam laws?

mercuriod
04-28-2012, 03:02 PM
Do you need a link to the picture of GZ's bleeding head, or the video of the funeral director saying there were no marks on TM? The eyewitness who saw GZ on the ground beneath TM, yelling for help? The police report? I apologize, I'm not sure what it is you haven't seen?

Actual evidence, the picture of "GZ's bleeding head" has not been verified to even be GZ, the funeral director said there was not evidence that TM had been in a fight (very bad "evidence" for GZ), but that also is not "evidence", the eyewitness saw "someone" on the ground beneath "someone" else, never heard him say who was who so yes link to that please. The police report, you mean the one that says right up top:

Offenses Section

1 HOMICIDE-NEGLIG
MANSL-UNNECESSARY KILLING TO
PREVENT UNLAWFUL ACT

Yea, also very BAD evidence for GZ.

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 03:02 PM
Do you need a link to the picture of GZ's bleeding head, or the video of the funeral director saying there were no marks on TM? The eyewitness who saw GZ on the ground beneath TM, yelling for help? The police report? I apologize, I'm not sure what it is you haven't seen?

I would love a link to actual evidence. Things documented by LE and the SA. A picture taken by a neighbor is fine and dandy, but I need to see the pictures that were actually taken by LE and marked as evidence during the investigation. I would also like to see GZ written report, his recorded interview and the walk-through he did that day. I also want to see Trayvon's autopsy report. Forensic evidence on the gun. Forensic evidence on both Trayvon and George's clothes. I could go on and on.

The SA says GZ's claims don't match the evidence... so we will have to wait to see the actual evidence.

Not one witness seen the beginning of the altercation... so saying that Trayvon confronted, punched, and held GZ down, is not evidence. It's just words by people who have every reason to lie.

MOO

LambChop
04-28-2012, 03:04 PM
Do you need a link to the picture of GZ's bleeding head, or the video of the funeral director saying there were no marks on TM? The eyewitness who saw GZ on the ground beneath TM, yelling for help? The police report? I apologize, I'm not sure what it is you haven't seen?

I believe GZ was arrested because his accounting of what happened was inconsistent with the SA's investigation and also the homocide detective's preliminary investigation when he stated that night he felt GZ was lying just from the evidence he had at that moment. I have fallen with no one around me and gotten injured. There is no doubt they were on the ground, there is no doubt GZ was injured but what is doubtful is GZ's story of how they ended up on the ground. Not a stretch of the imagination to figure out that someone who wanted to keep a person from fleeing and getting away would be more aggressive than a person who wanted to get back just to watch an important game on TV that was coming on around the time he was expected back at the condo. It is GZ's choice to try and prove SYG but so far he's not doing too well. His story should have been right the first time around. jmo

TorisMom003
04-28-2012, 03:05 PM
Do you need a link to the picture of GZ's bleeding head, or the video of the funeral director saying there were no marks on TM? The eyewitness who saw GZ on the ground beneath TM, yelling for help? The police report? I apologize, I'm not sure what it is you haven't seen?

The bleeding head photo shows that the incident could not have occured as Zimmerman claims since there are only two small lacerations to the back of the head instead of a road rash that would have occured had his head repeatedly hit a cement walkway, IMO.

The funeral director said there were no marks other than a gunshot wound, therefore there were no marks on Trayvon's hands either so that proves that Trayvon did NOT punch Zimmerman in the nose, face or anywhere else, IMO.

Eyewitness reports are very often wrong as eyewitnesses are not reliable, however, there are also other eyewitness reports that clearly say that Zimmerman was on top of Trayvon holding him down as well and eyewitness reports (actually earwitness reports) stating that it was a younger male yelling for help and making the sounds on the 911 call, IMO.

The police report was not a full report nor was it a final report when it was released to the public. The police report also was a version of what Zimmerman claimed happened that night, not what actually did occur, IMO.

So, none of the "evidence" against Trayvon is actual proof, at this time, that Trayvon did anything wrong or illegal that night. There is, however, proof that Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon, that Zimmerman followed Trayvon with a loaded gun and that Zimmerman did NOT have reasonable reason to believe that Trayvon was up to no good that night, IMO.

MOO

vlpate
04-28-2012, 03:09 PM
I believe there are only two people that GZ has to answer to right now.....the judge and SA. The Martin's aren't asking to have their bail lowered because they have no money. They are also innocent victims in this crime. No disputes over money GZ made only that he never reported it. What the Martin's do isn't important because TM has not been charged with a crime and TM at this point is considered innocent of any crime as there is no evidence one was ever committed by TM. If it is good for the goose it's certainly good for the gander. jmo

As I clearly stated, it's a curiosity on my part and a comparison to COL where the money is concerned.

The Zimmerman's are also an innocent party to this. Conjecture as to what they did or didn't know at the bond hearing is just that, conjecture. Anyone is allowed to bring them into this as culpable to a perceived omission, but there's no proof they knew anything.

George's father and wife are victims as well, they had nothing to do with what happened that night. Next to death, seeing your son go to prison for life has to be a close second. Everything is relative.

I pray they are not vilified the way I've seen other parents of murder suspects vilified in the past. JMO

LambChop
04-28-2012, 03:12 PM
Brought over from previous thread...


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #34 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7847172&postcount=1037)

In my opinion the money was sent to GZ without stipulation from the sender and it's none of my business what he spent it on or if he's even spent it. Why would I care? He turned over $150,000 to his attorney - he could easily have lied about how much he had that wasn't in the paypal account.

In a recent article there were a lot of pictures of GZ that we hadn't seen before, maybe those pictures were sold to raise money after the bond hearing? If so, this too shall be disclosed for the curious.

It's not that I don't get the curiosity, I'd like to know what the Martin's did with the $35,000 + collected for them during the first rally. I'm assuming they used it for living expenses since neither have gone back to work in 2 months. In that same two months the Zimmerman's had to live as well, so after $5,000 for bail, sounds about right. JMO

His bail was $15,000. To date GZ has only paid $5,000 leaving a balance of $10,000 he still owes the bail bondsman. He managed to spend $54,000 dollars in less than 30 days but only could give the bailman $5,000. That honesty for ya. jmo

TorisMom003
04-28-2012, 03:15 PM
His bail was $15,000. To date GZ has only paid $5,000 leaving a balance of $10,000 he still owes the bail bondsman. He managed to spend $54,000 dollars in less than 30 days but only could give the bailman $5,000. That honesty for ya. jmo

Oh I imagine he heard about it from his bail bondsman after MOM did that interview where he reported how much money Zimmerman had collected. If I am not mistaken the bail bondsman can decide to not cover any of the bail and have Zimmerman placed back in jail until Zimmerman pays or has someone else pay the entire amount. Didn't LP do something like that with CA?

MOO

HiHater
04-28-2012, 03:15 PM
His bail was $15,000. To date GZ has only paid $5,000 leaving a balance of $10,000 he still owes the bail bondsman. He managed to spend $54,000 dollars in less than 30 days but only could give the bailman $5,000. That honesty for ya. jmo

I wonder why the full 15,000 wasn't paid to the bondsman? I am speculating as to whether or not paying only 5,000 was an attempt to continue the "I'm so poor, I can't even eat" routine.

I think GZ fully intended to lie about the money, but once Mark O'Mara found out, he had to put a stop to it. O'Mara knew there could be consequences, and probably figured it'd be best to get it out in the open and deal with it before more money was collected and GZ had more time to hide and lie.

JMO MOO IMO

vlpate
04-28-2012, 03:19 PM
The bleeding head photo shows that the incident could not have occured as Zimmerman claims since there are only two small lacerations to the back of the head instead of a road rash that would have occured had his head repeatedly hit a cement walkway, IMO.

The funeral director said there were no marks other than a gunshot wound, therefore there were no marks on Trayvon's hands either so that proves that Trayvon did NOT punch Zimmerman in the nose, face or anywhere else, IMO.

Eyewitness reports are very often wrong as eyewitnesses are not reliable, however, there are also other eyewitness reports that clearly say that Zimmerman was on top of Trayvon holding him down as well and eyewitness reports (actually earwitness reports) stating that it was a younger male yelling for help and making the sounds on the 911 call, IMO.

The police report was not a full report nor was it a final report when it was released to the public. The police report also was a version of what Zimmerman claimed happened that night, not what actually did occur, IMO.

So, none of the "evidence" against Trayvon is actual proof, at this time, that Trayvon did anything wrong or illegal that night. There is, however, proof that Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon, that Zimmerman followed Trayvon with a loaded gun and that Zimmerman did NOT have reasonable reason to believe that Trayvon was up to no good that night, IMO.

MOO

BEM: I totally agree, but I, personally, would believe an eyewitness actually seeing the man on the bottom yelling, than an "ear witness" who is not an expert when it comes to a male's voice being 17 or 28. IMO

Regardless of how we each interpret the evidence, it is what it is, evidence. IMO

LambChop
04-28-2012, 03:20 PM
As I clearly stated, it's a curiosity on my part and a comparison to COL where the money is concerned.

The Zimmerman's are also an innocent party to this. Conjecture as to what they did or didn't know at the bond hearing is just that, conjecture. Anyone is allowed to bring them into this as culpable to a perceived omission, but there's no proof they knew anything.

George's father and wife are victims as well, they had nothing to do with what happened that night. Next to death, seeing your son go to prison for life has to be a close second. Everything is relative.

I pray they are not vilified the way I've seen other parents of murder suspects vilified in the past. JMO

I think the statute that was listed in the last thread said "reason to believe they 'should' have know". They knew of the account obviously by their admission so they should have known what was in the account before they swore to the court. Mr. RZ, Sr. did know better, he worked in the court system.

From this point on the Martin's are considered victims and we all know how we are expected to handle discussions about victim's families and I would hope we would all respect that. jmo

LambChop
04-28-2012, 03:22 PM
BEM: I totally agree, but I, personally, would believe an eyewitness actually seeing the man on the bottom yelling, than an "ear witness" who is not an expert when it comes to a male's voice being 17 or 28. IMO

Regardless of how we each interpret the evidence, it is what it is, evidence. IMO

But it's only evidence of him on the ground and not evidence of who was the first aggressor. If GZ was holding onto TM to keep him from leaving it's very likely that GZ could have fallen and taken TM with him. We all know GZ did not want TM to get away. That is obvious. jmo

rossva
04-28-2012, 03:24 PM
There are sveral sites set up for the Martins to receive donations. I will not list them here, but at least one of throug a w*p*y.com site, is being handled by MediumFour the marketing agency of Parks & Crump, the Martin family attorney, and can be verified through the firms website, http://parkscrump.com/. Just google "donations for Trayvon Martin", and you will find quite a few. I am not sure how many the Martins set up, but I am sure their attorney didn't set that one up with out their wishes.

Does anyone know if the Martin family ever asked for money? We know GZ asked his supporters directly, did the Martin family?

Also, when GZ is found guilty :moo:, would that 200k be impacted by Son of Sam laws?

LambChop
04-28-2012, 03:24 PM
Oh I imagine he heard about it from his bail bondsman after MOM did that interview where he reported how much money Zimmerman had collected. If I am not mistaken the bail bondsman can decide to not cover any of the bail and have Zimmerman placed back in jail until Zimmerman pays or has someone else pay the entire amount. Didn't LP do something like that with CA?

MOO

Yes, LP sure did. jmo

annalia
04-28-2012, 03:26 PM
I don't believe the issue is what they spent the money on, or whether or not that had a right to spend it on whatever they wanted to. The issue is what they said in court, MOM pleading that they had just about nothing, it was going to be so difficult for them to come up with money, that they'd need to mortgage a house. They can spend it on whatever they want, but they can't pretend that it didn't exist in court.

The issue is more of, what did they really know and when did they really know it. It doesn't add up that no one knew anything about the money, and that the only one who knew was RZ. They couldn't have spent 50K in just one instance, they must have been monitoring the account to know what was in there to take out for expenses.

Have there been any links or transcripts to yesterday's hearing? Wasn't it said that MOM said as of the day of the bond hearing there was 150K in the account?

ETA: And there's no comparison to this and the Martin's. The Martin's weren't under the obligation to disclose what they were given during a bond hearing.

JMHO

LambChop
04-28-2012, 03:28 PM
There are sveral sites set up for the Martins to receive donations. I will not list them here, but at least one of throug a w*p*y.com site, is being handled by MediumFour the marketing agency of Parks & Crump, the Martin family attorney, and can be verified through the firms website, http://parkscrump.com/. Just google "donations for Trayvon Martin, and you will find quite a few. I am not sure how many the Martins set up, but I am sure their attorney didn't set that one up with out their wishes.

I don't think anyone is objecting to GZ setting up a site. The objection seems to be what went on in the bond hearing. The Martins can do whatever they want to do without criticism. They aren't on trial and didn't have a dead body in their trunk. jmo

LambChop
04-28-2012, 03:31 PM
I don't believe the issue is what they spent the money on, or whether or not that had a right to spend it on whatever they wanted to. The issue is what they said in court, MOM pleading that they had just about nothing, it was going to be so difficult for them to come up with money, that they'd need to mortgage a house. They can spend it on whatever they want, but they can't pretend that it didn't exist in court.

The issue is more of, what did they really know and when did they really know it. It doesn't add up that no one knew anything about the money, and that the only one who knew was RZ. They couldn't have spent 50K in just one instance, they must have been monitoring the account to know what was in there to take out for expenses.

Have there been any links or transcripts to yesterday's hearing? Wasn't it said that MOM said as of the day of the bond hearing there was 150K in the account?

JMHO

Plus I can't believe GZ did not share a password to get into that account. Surely RZ, SZ or Sr. had GZ's computer once he was arrested so it would have been easy for one of them to access his account. I doubt GZ would withhold that from his wife. jmo

Karmady
04-28-2012, 03:32 PM
Does anyone know if the Martin family ever asked for money? We know GZ asked his supporters directly, did the Martin family?



sbm~

Yes, they did. There was a donation page set up by Crump's firm, I believe. It was discussed here previously.

m00c0w
04-28-2012, 03:34 PM
I don't think anyone is objecting to GZ setting up a site. The objection seems to be what went on in the bond hearing. The Martins can do whatever they want to do without criticism. They aren't on trial and didn't have a dead body in their trunk. jmo

Who had a dead body in their trunk?

LambChop
04-28-2012, 03:35 PM
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Thread #1 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165269&highlight=Trayvon) Thread #2 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166351&highlight=Trayvon+martin)
Thread #3 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166513&highlight=Trayvon+martin) Thread #4 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166660&highlight=Trayvon+martin)
Thread #5 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166793) Thread #6 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166872&highlight=Trayvon+Martin)
Thread #7 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167001&highlight=Trayvon+Martin) Thread #8 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167151&highlight=y%2Fo+teen)
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In this public forum, we need to stick to the facts of this case and that's our discussion here. Please, we ask that you do what you do best - SLEUTH THE CASE.

Looking for news links? Have you found a good MSM story you'd like to share? Please post these links in the Media Links No Discussion thread (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166507)

SOUND OFF Private Forum Companion Thread
Anyone feeling overheated or wishing to discuss the demonstrations, political, religious or racial aspects of the Trayvon Martin case, please check out our new forum in the private area of Websleuths accessible only to Websleuths members, called SOUND OFF.
Warning: Be sure to read the Required Read sticky post. Link to Trayvon Martin Sound Off (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168453)

Thank you, dear heart, for getting us organized. I was just thinking there are so many threads here we are running amuck.... lol

LambChop
04-28-2012, 03:35 PM
Who had a dead body in their trunk?

Don't worry, it wasn't the Martins. jmo

LambChop
04-28-2012, 03:39 PM
sbm~

Yes, they did. There was a donation page set up by Crump's firm, I believe. It was discussed here previously.

Which I believe they are within their rights to do, same as GZ. Anyone can do it and anyone can donate. jmo

TorisMom003
04-28-2012, 03:41 PM
I have a question about the address that Zimmerman claimed to have needed to get for the dispatcher. What address was he getting and why was he getting an address? Zimmerman knew where he had left his truck so it wasn't the address for that. Trayvon was "running" for the back entrance so it wasn't an address for where he went. So what address was it that was needed?

Karmady
04-28-2012, 03:46 PM
Which I believe they are within their rights to do, same as GZ. Anyone can do it and anyone can donate. jmo

Hey, I was just answering a specific question :truce: I kept my opinion about it to myself.

raeann
04-28-2012, 03:49 PM
I have a question about the address that Zimmerman claimed to have needed to get for the dispatcher. What address was he getting and why was he getting an address? Zimmerman knew where he had left his truck so it wasn't the address for that. Trayvon was "running" for the back entrance so it wasn't an address for where he went. So what address was it that was needed?

Great question.....he NEVER got an address, NEVER gave an address on that street to the dispatcher.....so that alone makes his story a LIE. He "went to get an address and was returning to his truck". HOWEVER, he reported no address to the dispatcher from that little trek, so what was he really doing???? That is obvious (chasing down TM) because he wasn't even anywhere near being on that sidewalk going toward his truck when he killed TM.

jmo

LambChop
04-28-2012, 03:53 PM
Hey, I was just answering a specific question :truce: I kept my opinion about it to myself.

Yes, I know Karmady. I think some are forgetting it's not a contest. Each person involved can ask for donations. It's their right and if someone wants to donate to help with their expenses that is their own personal choice and they should be free to do so without being harassed about it. I think MOM is afraid the people who donated would be harassed but I doubt that would happen just as I doubt witnesses will be afraid to come forward and testify. MOM stating that in the hearing the other day and it made me wonder why he would say something like that unless he was trying to make witnesses feel they needed to be fearful if they came forward. I just could not see a reason for him saying that. jmo

LambChop
04-28-2012, 03:56 PM
I have a question about the address that Zimmerman claimed to have needed to get for the dispatcher. What address was he getting and why was he getting an address? Zimmerman knew where he had left his truck so it wasn't the address for that. Trayvon was "running" for the back entrance so it wasn't an address for where he went. So what address was it that was needed?

That's really a good catch. Yes, and why didn't he go to the back gate and wait????? Why look for an address where he wasn't going to be. jmo

Adrienne37
04-28-2012, 03:57 PM
That's really a good catch. Yes, and why didn't he go to the back gate and wait????? Why look for an address where he wasn't going to be. jmo

IMO he was a man on a mission. He knew he wasn't going to let this @$$hole get away and that's exactly what he did.


~jmo~

octobermoon
04-28-2012, 03:58 PM
I have a question about the address that Zimmerman claimed to have needed to get for the dispatcher. What address was he getting and why was he getting an address? Zimmerman knew where he had left his truck so it wasn't the address for that. Trayvon was "running" for the back entrance so it wasn't an address for where he went. So what address was it that was needed?

Me thinks George was lying, but that is just my opinion. Seriously, the little man with the big gun was following a kid who was up to no good, on drugs or something.....He wasn't looking for an address. I don't like to have to do cartwheels and back flips to justify a teenage boy shot dead by an irresponsible man. A man with a history that landed him in anger management. A man who forgot to tell his high powered attrny he had $200,000. A grown man who knew better. :(

JMO IMO MOO

Elley Mae
04-28-2012, 03:58 PM
iirc it is guestamated to take about a year to come to trial, they were renting the town home and probably had a year lease. Probably will pay the rent up to end lease, and are now living some place else they (will probably have to pay) still have all their other bills they had when they left, car, insurance, tuitions, etc, etc. $50,000 for two people to survive off of is not much. I for one do not feel the money is spent. It (the missing amount) was probably moved to an account that they (the z's) have access to. They will probably have to end up moving more from the defense account to their living expenses account before it is over. jmo

TorisMom003
04-28-2012, 04:00 PM
LOL ~ OT
My 14 year old daughter was in the kitchen getting something to drink and saw on the fridge where I have been pulled for jury duty for next month. She came into the office and told me "Momma, those people are gonna hate you on that jury!" I asked her why and she said "Because you don't give up on anything and if you don't agree with them you will tell them so!" I think she has come to that conclussion because of my time spent on here at WS and from hearing me have "debates" with hubby over cases. LOL

IzzyBlanche
04-28-2012, 04:04 PM
Hi everyone,

I don't have time to wade through all the previous threads but what happened yesterday regarding the issue of unsealing documents?

Sorry if this has already been discussed.

Thanks.

LambChop
04-28-2012, 04:04 PM
LOL ~ OT
My 14 year old daughter was in the kitchen getting something to drink and saw on the fridge where I have been pulled for jury duty for next month. She came into the office and told me "Momma, those people are gonna hate you on that jury!" I asked her why and she said "Because you don't give up on anything and if you don't agree with them you will tell them so!" I think she has come to that conclussion because of my time spent on here at WS and from hearing me have "debates" with hubby over cases. LOL

There is absolutely nothing wrong with debating as long as you keep you common sense in tact. lol

octobermoon
04-28-2012, 04:05 PM
LOL ~ OT
My 14 year old daughter was in the kitchen getting something to drink and saw on the fridge where I have been pulled for jury duty for next month. She came into the office and told me "Momma, those people are gonna hate you on that jury!" I asked her why and she said "Because you don't give up on anything and if you don't agree with them you will tell them so!" I think she has come to that conclussion because of my time spent on here at WS and from hearing me have "debates" with hubby over cases. LOL

:) The power of Websleuths :)

Give her a hug. She has a great mom.

rossva
04-28-2012, 04:08 PM
Please don't selectively quote so it looks like I am making the Martin's out to look like bad guys. I was simply answering a question posted up-stream.

Does anyone know if the Martin family ever asked for money? We know GZ asked his supporters directly, did the Martin family?

Also, when GZ is found guilty :moo:, would that 200k be impacted by Son of Sam laws?


I don't think anyone is objecting to GZ setting up a site. The objection seems to be what went on in the bond hearing. The Martins can do whatever they want to do without criticism. They aren't on trial and didn't have a dead body in their trunk. jmo

LambChop
04-28-2012, 04:12 PM
Please don't selectively quote so it looks like I am making the Martin's out to look like bad guys. I was simply answering a question posted up-stream.

And I was just doing the same using the example you provided. My post was not meant to be personal only stating anyone is free to set up a site and collect donations. jmo

JBean
04-28-2012, 04:16 PM
His bail was $15,000. To date GZ has only paid $5,000 leaving a balance of $10,000 he still owes the bail bondsman. He managed to spend $54,000 dollars in less than 30 days but only could give the bailman $5,000. That honesty for ya. jmo


I wonder why the full 15,000 wasn't paid to the bondsman? I am speculating as to whether or not paying only 5,000 was an attempt to continue the "I'm so poor, I can't even eat" routine.

I think GZ fully intended to lie about the money, but once Mark O'Mara found out, he had to put a stop to it. O'Mara knew there could be consequences, and probably figured it'd be best to get it out in the open and deal with it before more money was collected and GZ had more time to hide and lie.

JMO MOO IMO
I read that differently. I thought he had paid the full 15k-but only used 5k out of the paypal account towards it.

oh here this might help:

Last week the judge let out Zimmerman on $150,000 bail, of which his family spent three days scrambling to post the $15,000 needed for the bail bondsman. They even mortgaged one of their properties to come up with the money. It’s unclear why they did not use more of the PayPal funds.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/27/2770968_p2/zimmerman-attorney-to-tell-judge.html#storylink=cpy

vlpate
04-28-2012, 04:16 PM
Actual evidence, the picture of "GZ's bleeding head" has not been verified to even be GZ, the funeral director said there was not evidence that TM had been in a fight (very bad "evidence" for GZ), but that also is not "evidence"

BEM: Someone should tell Crump since he is commenting on it!
"“When you look at those pictures and you see those two little cuts on his head, that is not consistent with your head being pounded into the pavement”… - Benjamin Crump 4/23 (http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Ben-Crump-The-lying-has-already-begun/-/1637132/11562322/-/n978b8/-/index.html)

the eyewitness saw "someone" on the ground beneath "someone" else, never heard him say who was who so yes link to that please.

"Someone" wearing red. This is not news or anything that hasn't been discussed many times here, but perhaps you missed it. Here's one of the many reports:

Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation:
MyFoxOrlando.com (http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4)
Below is a transcript of the Fox News interview of the witness “John” by reporter Keith Landry.
Narration: Sanford police (are) still trying to figure out exactly what happened in this spot here last night. We talked to a man who didn’t want to be shown on camera, who witnessed part of the attack right here then went upstairs to his window and witnessed the rest of it after he called 911.
Reporter: “What are you thinking now about all this?”
Narration: This afternoon I talked to “John” through his front door about what he saw last night during a fight that turned into a deadly shooting.
John: “The guy on the bottom (Zimmerman) who I believe had a red sweater on was yelling to me ‘help, help’. I told him (Trayvon) to stop (beating Zimmerman) and called 911."

1. This was the day after the shooting which holds more credence to me than any of the ear and eyewitnesses that have come forward in the weeks after.
2. On Roland Martin's interview with SB, TM, and BJ, Crump states Zimmerman had on a red sweatshirt. This interview was on the 18th of March.

Roland Martin's interview with SB, TM, and BJ (7:51).

The police report, you mean the one that says right up top:

Offenses Section

1 HOMICIDE-NEGLIG
MANSL-UNNECESSARY KILLING TO
PREVENT UNLAWFUL ACT
Yea, also very BAD evidence for GZ.

BEM: What unlawful act was he preventing?

HiHater
04-28-2012, 04:22 PM
BEM: Someone should tell Crump since he is commenting on it!
"“When you look at those pictures and you see those two little cuts on his head, that is not consistent with your head being pounded into the pavement”… - Benjamin Crump 4/23 (http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Ben-Crump-The-lying-has-already-begun/-/1637132/11562322/-/n978b8/-/index.html)



"Someone" wearing red. This is not news or anything that hasn't been discussed many times here, but perhaps you missed it. Here's one of the many reports:

Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation:
MyFoxOrlando.com (http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4)
Below is a transcript of the Fox News interview of the witness “John” by reporter Keith Landry.
Narration: Sanford police (are) still trying to figure out exactly what happened in this spot here last night. We talked to a man who didn’t want to be shown on camera, who witnessed part of the attack right here then went upstairs to his window and witnessed the rest of it after he called 911.
Reporter: “What are you thinking now about all this?”
Narration: This afternoon I talked to “John” through his front door about what he saw last night during a fight that turned into a deadly shooting.
John: “The guy on the bottom (Zimmerman) who I believe had a red sweater on was yelling to me ‘help, help’. I told him (Trayvon) to stop (beating Zimmerman) and called 911."

1. This was the day after the shooting which holds more credence to me than any of the ear and eyewitnesses that have come forward in the weeks after.
2. On Roland Martin's interview with SB, TM, and BJ, Crump states Zimmerman had on a red sweatshirt. This interview was on the 18th of March.

Roland Martin's interview with SB, TM, and BJ (7:51). (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3SZ8FBrbvw&feature=player_embedded)



BEM: What unlawful act was he preventing?

In that context, I think the unlawful act was some sort of assault. JMO

JBean
04-28-2012, 04:23 PM
There was a discussion about M'OM's fees the other day. this has probably been addressed but since this is a new thread thought I would post anyway.

Faced with the prospect of not getting paid for his work, O’Mara, has set up his own website and legal defense fund — gzdefensefund.com. At his normal $400-an-hour rate, the case could run up to $1 million, including costs, he said.
Getting paid
“I am a businessman, and I certainly don’t mind getting paid for my expenses in this,” O’Mara said. “We don’t have a lot of training on how to handle legal defense fund money … There are no rules, and we are going to make some.” He vowed to be more transparent.
He noted that Trayvon’s parents have a website that accepts donations, too. That site on wepay.com says it has collected about $26,000.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/27/2770968_p2/zimmerman-attorney-to-tell-judge.html#storylink=cpy

Karmady
04-28-2012, 04:24 PM
Yes, I know Karmady. I think some are forgetting it's not a contest. Each person involved can ask for donations. It's their right and if someone wants to donate to help with their expenses that is their own personal choice and they should be free to do so without being harassed about it. I think MOM is afraid the people who donated would be harassed but I doubt that would happen just as I doubt witnesses will be afraid to come forward and testify. MOM stating that in the hearing the other day and it made me wonder why he would say something like that unless he was trying to make witnesses feel they needed to be fearful if they came forward. I just could not see a reason for him saying that. jmo

Idk. I think I'm being very honest with myself when I say that I would be hesitant to contribute to George's defense out of fear. Even if it wouldn't put me in actual fear for my life (although that thought would cross my mnd, as well) I would not want my name associated with such an unpopular cause that has drawn such incredibly negative backlash. In fact, I do feel very strongly that, regardless of the ultimate outcome, this has been a wrongful persecution of George of epic proportions. I mean, even if you think he should have been arrested on the night of the shooting, what are you going to do if you're in his shoes? INSIST that you be arrested on the spot?

Then once the media and the folks we talk about elsewhere got involved, well, it's just terrifying, imo, and a complete travesty. Not at all how things are supposed to happen in this country regardless, again, of which "side" you find yourself on, imo.

My point is I do believe the concerns expressed by O'Mara are valid, because I feel that way myself, and I have given it some thought.


jmo

vlpate
04-28-2012, 04:24 PM
I have a question about the address that Zimmerman claimed to have needed to get for the dispatcher. What address was he getting and why was he getting an address? Zimmerman knew where he had left his truck so it wasn't the address for that. Trayvon was "running" for the back entrance so it wasn't an address for where he went. So what address was it that was needed?

All of the condominiums have a different address. You may recall the discussion on which address TM's body lay in back of. He said it was a "cut-through", and he didn't have the address - which I assume meant to the condo's on either side of that cut through. JMO

Zak
04-28-2012, 04:29 PM
The bleeding head photo shows that the incident could not have occured as Zimmerman claims since there are only two small lacerations to the back of the head instead of a road rash that would have occured had his head repeatedly hit a cement walkway, IMO.

Road Rash is actually a term used for people who fall off of motorcycles or bicycles and slide across pavement. It's usually a bad brushburn and often filled with rocks, dirt and debree. (I've seen plenty of that as hubby and many friends ride motorcycle's.) If GZ's head was banged a couple of times on the pavement and he tried to scoot off the sidewalk to keep his head from being hit, I don't understand why anyone would not think that GZ would have been trying to lift his head at the same time he was scooting or trying to move.

The funeral director said there were no marks other than a gunshot wound, therefore there were no marks on Trayvon's hands either so that proves that Trayvon did NOT punch Zimmerman in the nose, face or anywhere else, IMO.

Friends of mine own a bar, so I've seen a few bar fights. From what I've observed when someone punches someone in the nose or mouth it usually only cuts the fist/hand if a tooth is hit by the fist. So just punching a nose wouldn't necessarily break the skin or cause a bruise on the knuckles. I've seen some red knuckles after a fight, but am not sure what that would look like if the person had died during the fight. What I've not seen is black and blue marks on a hand or knuckles the day after a fight unless the hand was broken.

Eyewitness reports are very often wrong as eyewitnesses are not reliable, however, there are also other eyewitness reports that clearly say that Zimmerman was on top of Trayvon holding him down as well and eyewitness reports (actually earwitness reports) stating that it was a younger male yelling for help and making the sounds on the 911 call, IMO.

I have not heard anyone but the witness John stating that he was outside and the man in the red was on the bottom. I've listened to all the other callers to 911 and have not heard any of them state that GZ or the man in red was on the top. I will go to listen again. Also regarding the calls for help. I noticed that investigator Gilbreath stated that the FBI had been sent the 911 calls to analyze, but this is what he said when he testified:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html

O'MARA: Witnesses heard people arguing, sounded like a struggle. During this time, witnesses heard numerous calls for help. Some of this was recorded. Trayvon's mom reviewed the 911 calls and identified the cry for help and Trayvon Martin's voice. Did you do any forensic analysis on that voice tape?

GILBREATH: Did I?

O'MARA: Did you or are you aware of anything?

GILBREATH: The "Orlando Sentinel" had someone do it and the FBI has had someone do it.

O'MARA: Is that part of your investigation?

GILBREATH: Yes.

O'MARA: Has that given any insight as to the voice?

GILBREATH: No.


So that tells me that as of the bond hearing they did not yet know who was yelling for help that night. And IMO if the person calling for help was Trayvon then I would expect that as a teenager going through puberty that his voice was changing and would be crackling if it was him screaming. I lived through 2boys going through puberty with changing voices.

The police report was not a full report nor was it a final report when it was released to the public. The police report also was a version of what Zimmerman claimed happened that night, not what actually did occur, IMO.

So, none of the "evidence" against Trayvon is actual proof, at this time, that Trayvon did anything wrong or illegal that night. There is, however, proof that Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon, that Zimmerman followed Trayvon with a loaded gun and that Zimmerman did NOT have reasonable reason to believe that Trayvon was up to no good that night, IMO.

I really believe that we all need to take a step back and wait for the documents to be released for a better idea of what there is evidence of or any inconsistancies. I just don't think that GZ had time to make up such a story right after the shooting. He had to be in shock right after, maybe is head was hurting and was in a time of great stress. I just don't know how anyone could be thinking straight after something like this. He never ask for an attorney when being questioned. He freely talked to LE several times in the next 24hrs without an attorney. If he wasn't telling the truth or making it up as he went along then why would he not talk to an attorney for legal advice just in case he was caught in a lie? I, for one, would not expect all of his statements to match or there not be inconsistancies because of his state of mind at the time. In fact if each of his statements matched I would be leary of a made up story.
MOO

My comments are in red. I'd also like to mention that my husband was in a accident, hit by a vehicle and thrown 10-15' landing on pavement surrounded by railroad ties. His head hit a railroad tie and landed on the pavement. GZ had more of a laceration on his head than my husband had. Hubby's forehead laceration was about an inch long and no stitches. He did have road rash on his arm and knee. Hubby was knocked unconscious and ended up with TBI. So I don't think we can look at one head injury and expect all to look the same.

JBean
04-28-2012, 04:30 PM
Idk. I think I'm being very honest with myself when I say that I would be hesitant to contribute to George's defense out of fear. Even if it wouldn't put me in actual fear for my life (although that thought would cross my mnd, as well) I would not want my name associated with such an unpopular cause that has drawn such incredibly negative backlash. In fact, I do feel very strongly that, regardless of the ultimate outcome, this has been a wrongful persecution of George of epic proportions. I mean, even if you think he should have been arrested on the night of the shooting, what are you going to do if you're in his shoes? INSIST that you be arrested on the spot?

Then once the media and the folks we talk about elsewhere got involved, well, it's just terrifying, imo, and a complete travesty. Not at all how things are supposed to happen in this country regardless, again, of which "side" you find yourself on, imo.

My point is I do believe the concerns expressed by O'Mara are valid, because I feel that way myself, and I have given it some thought.


jmobbm
You raise some interesting points Karmady. especially the one about George insisting he should be arrested. I can honestly say I don't think I thought of it in that way.

i.b.nora
04-28-2012, 04:31 PM
I read that differently. I thought he had paid the full 15k-but only used 5k out of the paypal account towards it.

snipped


Mark O'Mara himself said on Jane Velez Mitchell show yesterday that George still owes the bail bondsman, $10,000. $5,000 had been paid from the PayPal funds.
It's possible that by now, the amount has been taken care of, but it was outstanding as of yesterday.

vlpate
04-28-2012, 04:34 PM
Idk. I think I'm being very honest with myself when I say that I would be hesitant to contribute to George's defense out of fear. Even if it wouldn't put me in actual fear for my life (although that thought would cross my mnd, as well) I would not want my name associated with such an unpopular cause that has drawn such incredibly negative backlash. In fact, I do feel very strongly that, regardless of the ultimate outcome, this has been a wrongful persecution of George of epic proportions. I mean, even if you think he should have been arrested on the night of the shooting, what are you going to do if you're in his shoes? INSIST that you be arrested on the spot?

Then once the media and the folks we talk about elsewhere got involved, well, it's just terrifying, imo, and a complete travesty. Not at all how things are supposed to happen in this country regardless, again, of which "side" you find yourself on, imo.

My point is I do believe the concerns expressed by O'Mara are valid, because I feel that way myself, and I have given it some thought.


jmo

The media has capitalized on this fear. Hopefully the Judge will not release the names of his contributors. The account was a personal account and I see no reason why he should, IMO. Contributing anonymously with money orders will likely be the form of contribution in the future. I think it is funny that people, in Florida especially, would complain at all about a legal defense fund for GZ since they will be paying his legal bills if the money stops coming in. Remember Casey Anthony? She was indigent after Baez blew through the money she made off Caylee's pictures. Florida paid her enormous legal fees and trial costs thereafter. JMO

Elley Mae
04-28-2012, 04:35 PM
My comments are in red. I'd also like to mention that my husband was in a accident, hit by a vehicle and thrown 10-15' landing on pavement surrounded by railroad ties. His head hit a railroad tie and landed on the pavement. GZ had more of a laceration on his head than my husband had. Hubby's forehead laceration was about an inch long and no stitches. He did have road rash on his arm and knee. Hubby was knocked unconscious and ended up with TBI. So I don't think we look at one head injury and expect all to look the same.

You Rock! Just sayin

vlpate
04-28-2012, 04:36 PM
Mark O'Mara himself said on Jane Velez Mitchell show yesterday that George still owes the bail bondsman, $10,000. $5,000 had been paid from the PayPal funds.
It's possible that by now, the amount has been taken care of, but it was outstanding as of yesterday.

Would you have a link handy? I don't recall the part about still owing $10,000. TIA

JBean
04-28-2012, 04:40 PM
Mark O'Mara himself said on Jane Velez Mitchell show yesterday that George still owes the bail bondsman, $10,000. $5,000 had been paid from the PayPal funds.
It's possible that by now, the amount has been taken care of, but it was outstanding as of yesterday.
OH that is interesting, thank you ib nora. I see the confusion now.
It is really up to the bondsman-well at least here in CA it is,how the funds are collected. For some you have to have the full amount and for others you can make arrangements.

vlpate
04-28-2012, 04:40 PM
There was a discussion about M'OM's fees the other day. this has probably been addressed but since this is a new thread thought I would post anyway.

Faced with the prospect of not getting paid for his work, O’Mara, has set up his own website and legal defense fund — gzdefensefund.com. At his normal $400-an-hour rate, the case could run up to $1 million, including costs, he said.
Getting paid
“I am a businessman, and I certainly don’t mind getting paid for my expenses in this,” O’Mara said. “We don’t have a lot of training on how to handle legal defense fund money … There are no rules, and we are going to make some.” He vowed to be more transparent.
He noted that Trayvon’s parents have a website that accepts donations, too. That site on wepay.com says it has collected about $26,000.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/27/2770968_p2/zimmerman-attorney-to-tell-judge.html#storylink=cpy

The parents also have a foundation which bares the TM trademark, but I forget the exact name.

katydid23
04-28-2012, 04:42 PM
Mark O'Mara himself said on Jane Velez Mitchell show yesterday that George still owes the bail bondsman, $10,000. $5,000 had been paid from the PayPal funds.
It's possible that by now, the amount has been taken care of, but it was outstanding as of yesterday.

I think his exact words were " the second installment" of 10,000 dollars. By using the term second installment it leads me to believe the 10 grand was not due until now.

If they were behind in their payments or withholding money from the bail bonds man then I don't think he would have been released. imo

LambChop
04-28-2012, 04:42 PM
There was a discussion about M'OM's fees the other day. this has probably been addressed but since this is a new thread thought I would post anyway.

Faced with the prospect of not getting paid for his work, O’Mara, has set up his own website and legal defense fund — gzdefensefund.com. At his normal $400-an-hour rate, the case could run up to $1 million, including costs, he said.
Getting paid
“I am a businessman, and I certainly don’t mind getting paid for my expenses in this,” O’Mara said. “We don’t have a lot of training on how to handle legal defense fund money … There are no rules, and we are going to make some.” He vowed to be more transparent.
He noted that Trayvon’s parents have a website that accepts donations, too. That site on wepay.com says it has collected about $26,000.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/27/2770968_p2/zimmerman-attorney-to-tell-judge.html#storylink=cpy

This is what I found:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/27/2770968/zimmerman-attorney-to-tell-judge.html

“He absolutely knew there was money in that account. I am not suggesting he didn’t know it was there,” O’Mara told reporters after a court hearing Friday where the issue was disclosed to the court. “The question is whether he felt that needed to be disclosed … It was an oversight.”

"Zimmerman must not have thought the money was readily available for spending, O’Mara said, although Zimmerman had spent some of the funds on rent and on preparing his current safe house, and $5,000 went toward posting bail."

In another article I can't find now MOM said GZ still owed the bailbondsman $10,000. jmo

vlpate
04-28-2012, 04:43 PM
Walking while being black.

Reading it as he was "preventing" a crime. There is no way GZ could have prevented TM from doing something he was already engaged in. JMO

Concerned Papa
04-28-2012, 04:45 PM
Would you have a link handy? I don't recall the part about still owing $10,000. TIA

From her 4/27 show:

VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK, Mark. I just have so many questions for you. How is it possible that he`s already spent 50 grand approximately on living expenses? I mean, that`s a year`s salary for a lot of Americans, at least.

O`MARA: Yes. And I`m going to answer those questions as soon as I see all the bank records and see what he spent it on. I do know, for example, the five went to the bail bonds person. I imagine that the other 10 that is going to be due to the bail bonds person will come from that fund. I still think that is a legitimate defense fund expense.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/27/ijvm.01.html

JBean
04-28-2012, 04:45 PM
Would you have a link handy? I don't recall the part about still owing $10,000. TIA
O`MARA: Yes. And I`m going to answer those questions as soon as I see all the bank records and see what he spent it on. I do know, for example, the five went to the bail bonds person. I imagine that the other 10 that is going to be due to the bail bonds person will come from that fund. I still think that is a legitimate defense fund expense.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/27/ijvm.01.html

Elley Mae
04-28-2012, 04:46 PM
There was a discussion about M'OM's fees the other day. this has probably been addressed but since this is a new thread thought I would post anyway.

Faced with the prospect of not getting paid for his work, O’Mara, has set up his own website and legal defense fund — gzdefensefund.com. At his normal $400-an-hour rate, the case could run up to $1 million, including costs, he said.
Getting paid
“I am a businessman, and I certainly don’t mind getting paid for my expenses in this,” O’Mara said. “We don’t have a lot of training on how to handle legal defense fund money … There are no rules, and we are going to make some.” He vowed to be more transparent.
He noted that Trayvon’s parents have a website that accepts donations, too. That site on wepay.com says it has collected about $26,000.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/27/2770968_p2/zimmerman-attorney-to-tell-judge.html#storylink=cpy

jumping from your post
http://cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/4/26/attorney_zimmerman_h.html

The attorney for Trayvon Martin's parents said the Justice for Trayvon Martin Foundation has raised about $70,000 in donations.

Zak
04-28-2012, 04:46 PM
You Rock! Just sayin

Thanks! However I just noticed that I transposed the letters in TBI. I will need to go back and edit.

i.b.nora
04-28-2012, 04:46 PM
Would you have a link handy? I don't recall the part about still owing $10,000. TIA
No, I do not have a link. I saw and heard it myself on TV yesterday. I watched two showings of the program. I reported on it at the time, in the last thread.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #34

It was posted in the middle of a conversation about the show as others were watching the show also. I don't think Jane's show has transcripts, and I personally can't currently view YouTubes so well, so if there is a video online of the whole show, I am unaware. Except that, it was the same show that had the video montage with the guy and the police cars.

ETA:
Ah, see, there you go! JBean is just quick as a bunny. And, she does have transcripts. Dadgumit, I learn something new each and every day.

ETA 2;
And concerned poppa is even quicker. Thank youse guys!

Nore
04-28-2012, 04:48 PM
IMO he was a man on a mission. He knew he wasn't going to let this @$$hole get away and that's exactly what he did.


~jmo~

---------------
Yes Adrienne. I have no feelings for this man on a mission. We know if he had stayed in his truck as LE. told him, he'd have no headaches today and Trayvon would be alive. Doesnt he just ruffle your feathers? :seeya:

highflyer
04-28-2012, 04:48 PM
Idk. I think I'm being very honest with myself when I say that I would be hesitant to contribute to George's defense out of fear. Even if it wouldn't put me in actual fear for my life (although that thought would cross my mnd, as well) I would not want my name associated with such an unpopular cause that has drawn such incredibly negative backlash. In fact, I do feel very strongly that, regardless of the ultimate outcome, this has been a wrongful persecution of George of epic proportions. I mean, even if you think he should have been arrested on the night of the shooting, what are you going to do if you're in his shoes? INSIST that you be arrested on the spot?

Then once the media and the folks we talk about elsewhere got involved, well, it's just terrifying, imo, and a complete travesty. Not at all how things are supposed to happen in this country regardless, again, of which "side" you find yourself on, imo.

My point is I do believe the concerns expressed by O'Mara are valid, because I feel that way myself, and I have given it some thought.


jmo

I have given this much thought too. And I find it much more terrifying that someone can call police, follow a handbook of what to tell police and go down the list on that call, stalk and murder an unarmed kid who went for candy and tea and not get arrested for it on the spot. That is terrifying. That is not at all how things are supposed to happen in this country. Wrongful persecution, I think not. May George be safe and have his day in court but remember in America it is alright to speak up when a travesty has been committed and those against killing kids are speaking up. George is in the spotlight, he put himself there and may it shine brightly.

Elley Mae
04-28-2012, 04:50 PM
This is what I found:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/27/2770968/zimmerman-attorney-to-tell-judge.html

“He absolutely knew there was money in that account. I am not suggesting he didn’t know it was there,” O’Mara told reporters after a court hearing Friday where the issue was disclosed to the court. “The question is whether he felt that needed to be disclosed … It was an oversight.”

"Zimmerman must not have thought the money was readily available for spending, O’Mara said, although Zimmerman had spent some of the funds on rent and on preparing his current safe house, and $5,000 went toward posting bail."

In another article I can't find now MOM said GZ still owed the bailbondsman $10,000. jmo

bbm that right there tells me that 5000 of the 15000 came from the fund, not that the 5000 was all that was put up. jmo

mercuriod
04-28-2012, 04:50 PM
BEM: Someone should tell Crump since he is commenting on it!
"“When you look at those pictures and you see those two little cuts on his head, that is not consistent with your head being pounded into the pavement”… - Benjamin Crump 4/23 (http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Ben-Crump-The-lying-has-already-begun/-/1637132/11562322/-/n978b8/-/index.html)



"Someone" wearing red. This is not news or anything that hasn't been discussed many times here, but perhaps you missed it. Here's one of the many reports:

Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation:
MyFoxOrlando.com (http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1phFMGCu4)
Below is a transcript of the Fox News interview of the witness “John” by reporter Keith Landry.
Narration: Sanford police (are) still trying to figure out exactly what happened in this spot here last night. We talked to a man who didn’t want to be shown on camera, who witnessed part of the attack right here then went upstairs to his window and witnessed the rest of it after he called 911.
Reporter: “What are you thinking now about all this?”
Narration: This afternoon I talked to “John” through his front door about what he saw last night during a fight that turned into a deadly shooting.
John: “The guy on the bottom (Zimmerman) who I believe had a red sweater on was yelling to me ‘help, help’. I told him (Trayvon) to stop (beating Zimmerman) and called 911."

1. This was the day after the shooting which holds more credence to me than any of the ear and eyewitnesses that have come forward in the weeks after.
2. On Roland Martin's interview with SB, TM, and BJ, Crump states Zimmerman had on a red sweatshirt. This interview was on the 18th of March.

Roland Martin's interview with SB, TM, and BJ (7:51). (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3SZ8FBrbvw&feature=player_embedded)



BEM: What unlawful act was he preventing?

Here is the actual interview with "John"

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

And here is what it ACTUALLY says

The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.


So now if the guy on the bottom is GZ what is John telling GZ to stop?

No where in that interview did "John" say the names of Zimmerman or Trayvon as your posts states he did!

vlpate
04-28-2012, 04:51 PM
I think his exact words were " the second installment" of 10,000 dollars. By using the term second installment it leads me to believe the 10 grand was not due until now.

If they were behind in their payments or withholding money from the bail bonds man then I don't think he would have been released. imo

Maybe you are thinking about "second mortgage"? I can't find anything about a second installment.

I hope this website is ok, looks to be MSM. This is what I heard O'Mara say:
http://www.castanet.net/edition/news-story--5-.htm

"O'Mara said he learned about the money this week, after Zimmerman's release. The family used $5,000 from the website as well as a second mortgage on their home to bail out Zimmerman, O'Mara said. Zimmerman has also used some of the money for living expenses."

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 04:51 PM
I don't blame George for him not being arrested immediately. That fault alone lies squarely on the SPD and anyone else who got involved in this case the night of the shooting. I have no idea who all was involved with the decision and what exactly went into making that decision that night, but that is why it is being investigated by people even higher then them and rightfully so. We know of at least one investigator who wanted George arrested that night, but he was shot down.

I blame George for his actions that night. I blame George for Trayvon's death. I believe George is 100% responsible for Trayvon being dead right now. His words and his actions that night are very clear to me.

MOO

JBean
04-28-2012, 04:55 PM
No, I do not have a link. I saw and heard it myself on TV yesterday. I watched two showings of the program. I reported on it at the time, in the last thread.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #34 (http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7844442&postcount=630)

It was posted in the middle of a conversation about the show as others were watching the show also. I don't think Jane's show has transcripts, and I personally can't currently view YouTubes so well, so if there is a video online of the whole show, I am unaware. Except that, it was the same show that had the video montage with the guy and the police cars.

ETA:
Ah, see, there you go! JBean is just quick as a bunny. And, she does have transcripts. Dadgumit, I learn something new each and every day.

ETA 2;
And concerned poppa is even quicker. Thank youse guys!
damn that concerned papa. ruining my reputation for being the fastest link finder.

vlpate
04-28-2012, 04:55 PM
Here is the actual interview with "John"

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

And here is what it ACTUALLY says

The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.


So now if the guy on the bottom is GZ what is John telling GZ to stop?

No where in that interview did "John" say the names of Zimmerman or Trayvon as your posts states he did!

Yes, same interview as I posted, in which John also states, "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

Maybe he meant "stop" yelling? JMO

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1tN2jbYFE

Elley Mae
04-28-2012, 04:58 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/sns-rt-us-nbc-reporter-zimmermanbre83q1at-20120427,0,2969718.story

In what is either an eerie coincidence or fodder for conspiracy theorists, a second NBC employee has been fired over an edit of Trayvon Martin shooter George Zimmerman's 911 call to police.

Concerned Papa
04-28-2012, 04:59 PM
damn that concerned papa. ruining my reputation for being the fastest link finder.

I knew if I hung around long enuff I'd trap ye :floorlaugh:

LambChop
04-28-2012, 05:00 PM
Reading it as he was "preventing" a crime. There is no way GZ could have prevented TM from doing something he was already engaged in. JMO

There was no evidence TM was engaged in anything other than going home and had he not interferred with LE, LE would have determined that and let TM go home to watch his game. Obviously a do-gooder trying to "prevent" a crime that was never going to happen can have tragic results. jmo

mercuriod
04-28-2012, 05:00 PM
I have given this much thought too. And I find it much more terrifying that someone can call police, follow a handbook of what to tell police and go down the list on that call, stalk and murder an unarmed kid who went for candy and tea and not get arrested for it on the spot. That is terrifying. That is not at all how things are supposed to happen in this country. Wrongful persecution, I think not. May George be safe and have his day in court but remember in America it is alright to speak up when a travesty has been committed and those against killing kids are speaking up. George is in the spotlight, he put himself there and may it shine brightly.

:tyou: :tyou: :tyou: 1000 :tyou: 's are not enough!

elementary
04-28-2012, 05:00 PM
Here is the actual interview with "John"

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

And here is what it ACTUALLY says

The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.


So now if the guy on the bottom is GZ what is John telling GZ to stop?

No where in that interview did "John" say the names of Zimmerman or Trayvon as your posts states he did!

Been lurking and trying to keep up with info. Am a bit confused. How can there be two different versions quoted, one identifying the two on the ground (vlpate), and the other without (yours)? Which one is correct? :waitasec:

LambChop
04-28-2012, 05:02 PM
damn that concerned papa. ruining my reputation for being the fastest link finder.

I know, he is. Quick Draw McPapa.....

JBean
04-28-2012, 05:03 PM
Sorry just need to add this from the transcripts as it is worth noting in the overall scheme of the bond payment:

>>VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. OK. I mean, listen. None of us is perfect, so I`m just trying to straighten this out.

Now, here`s another thing. You were -- were you involved at all in helping get George Zimmerman`s bond last weekend, because we understood that in court it was revealed $5,000 of that Web site money was used to get that bond, the bail, the 10 percent bail.

So wouldn`t it have been evident at that time, given that there was $5,000 used? The obvious question was, well, how much money is there, all told, since we have $5,000 to use for the bond?

O`MARA: Sure. I mean, let me answer it the way you asked it, which was I wasn`t particularly involved. I helped set up the bail bonds person.

I will tell you that the first 24 or 36 hours the Zimmerman family was very concerned about getting a bail bondsman involved because of security. I mean, literally, for the first day, they refused to, as a matter of fact. They were trying to raise the $150,000.

Now, you think that through, they were trying to raise $150,000 not using the money that was in that account, because quite honestly, if they wanted to, they could have just taken the check out of there and paid the full bond.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Can I...

O`MARA: I know from having dealt with them for 24 hours, trying to convince them use the bail bondsman. He is trustworthy. This is the way to do it. They were going to talk about getting a grandmother involved and her house.

So in my opinion, just from my view of it, not even as his advocate, it made sense that they weren`t focused on that money for the bond.<<

mercuriod
04-28-2012, 05:04 PM
Yes, same interview as I posted, in which John also states, "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

Maybe he meant "stop" yelling? JMO

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1tN2jbYFE

So where in that interview did "John" ever say the names Zimmerman and Trayvon as your first post stated?

JBean
04-28-2012, 05:04 PM
I knew if I hung around long enuff I'd trap ye :floorlaugh:
<modsnip>!

sleonardelli
04-28-2012, 05:05 PM
Do you need a link to the picture of GZ's bleeding head, or the video of the funeral director saying there were no marks on TM? The eyewitness who saw GZ on the ground beneath TM, yelling for help? The police report? I apologize, I'm not sure what it is you haven't seen?

At what point did Trayvon lose his right to self-defense? Yes, GZ was injured but we don't know how those injuries occured. IMO, with the "evidence" "we" do have, they could NOT have been caused by Trayvon pounding his head into the pavement. That kind of injury would likely look more like road rash. "Gilbreath also confirmed that Zimmerman had two lacerations on the back of his head. A picture purportedly showing blood running down the back of Zimmerman's head was published by ABC News this morning."

Could the "lacerations" have occurred when Trayvon was trying to get away from GZ? We don't know; we also don't KNOW the whole statement GZ gave LE.

"Gilbreath testified that Zimmerman repeatedly contradicted himself while being interviewed by police and provided statements inconsistent with physical evidence and witness recollections." IMO, this could mean that GZ may have done something physical to provoke Trayvon, such as try to detain him and Trayvon tried to defend himself. Trayvon had NO CLUE who GZ was.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/20/george-zimmerman-bail-hearing_n_1440175.html

mercuriod
04-28-2012, 05:07 PM
Been lurking and trying to keep up with info. Am a bit confused. How can there be two different versions quoted, one identifying the two on the ground (vlpate), and the other without (yours)? Which one is correct? :waitasec:

:waitasec: Well I posted the ACTUAL interview, here it is again:

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

Listen to the video, read the article, no where in it does "John" say the names Zimmerman or Trayvon.

LambChop
04-28-2012, 05:10 PM
Plus the family still would have had to have been searching to get up enough equity on their homes to guarantee the bond, right? They would be responsible for the whole bond should GZ skip because the $15,000 is not refundable. Isn't that correct???? jmo

vlpate
04-28-2012, 05:11 PM
O`MARA: Yes. And I`m going to answer those questions as soon as I see all the bank records and see what he spent it on. I do know, for example, the five went to the bail bonds person. I imagine that the other 10 that is going to be due to the bail bonds person will come from that fund. I still think that is a legitimate defense fund expense.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/27/ijvm.01.html

Thank you JBean. So, he says "that is going to be due". If you combine the two statements, the one about the parents mortgaging their house and this one, maybe the parents were waiting on a check and the bondsman had a promissory note?

Very puzzling - why wouldn't GZ just have the money taken out of the account? Perhaps only he could draw it out? Transferring the funds would take a few days, at least, so maybe the $5,000 came from viable funds in his possession. O'Mara is too ambiguous, IMO.

Concerned Papa
04-28-2012, 05:11 PM
Sorry just need to add this from the transcripts as it is worth noting in the overall scheme of the bond payment:

>>VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. OK. I mean, listen. None of us is perfect, so I`m just trying to straighten this out.

Now, here`s another thing. You were -- were you involved at all in helping get George Zimmerman`s bond last weekend, because we understood that in court it was revealed $5,000 of that Web site money was used to get that bond, the bail, the 10 percent bail.

So wouldn`t it have been evident at that time, given that there was $5,000 used? The obvious question was, well, how much money is there, all told, since we have $5,000 to use for the bond?

O`MARA: Sure. I mean, let me answer it the way you asked it, which was I wasn`t particularly involved. I helped set up the bail bonds person.

I will tell you that the first 24 or 36 hours the Zimmerman family was very concerned about getting a bail bondsman involved because of security. I mean, literally, for the first day, they refused to, as a matter of fact. They were trying to raise the $150,000.

Now, you think that through, they were trying to raise $150,000 not using the money that was in that account, because quite honestly, if they wanted to, they could have just taken the check out of there and paid the full bond.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Can I...

O`MARA: I know from having dealt with them for 24 hours, trying to convince them use the bail bondsman. He is trustworthy. This is the way to do it. They were going to talk about getting a grandmother involved and her house.

So in my opinion, just from my view of it, not even as his advocate, it made sense that they weren`t focused on that money for the bond.<<

I saw that. I couldn't help but wonder, however, what did they consider important enough to spend the remaining $49K on? As O'Mara said, the bond fee would certainly have been a legitimate defense fund expense.

elementary
04-28-2012, 05:14 PM
:waitasec: Well I posted the ACTUAL interview, here it is again:

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

Listen to the video, read the article, no where in it does "John" say the names Zimmerman or Trayvon.

Oh, Okay. So no one identified them after all. Many thanks for clearing that up! :)

octobermoon
04-28-2012, 05:15 PM
I have given this much thought too. And I find it much more terrifying that someone can call police, follow a handbook of what to tell police and go down the list on that call, stalk and murder an unarmed kid who went for candy and tea and not get arrested for it on the spot. That is terrifying. That is not at all how things are supposed to happen in this country. Wrongful persecution, I think not. May George be safe and have his day in court but remember in America it is alright to speak up when a travesty has been committed and those against killing kids are speaking up. George is in the spotlight, he put himself there and may it shine brightly.

BBM

George did this all by his lonesome. He took the law into his own hands and killed a kid. George pulled the trigger. He set off a firestorm. If only he had done the right thing and stayed in his car/truck.

If only :sigh:

vlpate
04-28-2012, 05:15 PM
:waitasec: Well I posted the ACTUAL interview, here it is again:

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

Listen to the video, read the article, no where in it does "John" say the names Zimmerman or Trayvon.
I think it would be safe to say the (dead) guy on the grass was Trayvon. JMO

"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

Read more: http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1tN7uw3Qb

LambChop
04-28-2012, 05:16 PM
At what point did Trayvon lose his right to self-defense? Yes, GZ was injured but we don't know how those injuries occured. IMO, with the "evidence" "we" do have, they could NOT have been caused by Trayvon pounding his head into the pavement. That kind of injury would likely look more like road rash. "Gilbreath also confirmed that Zimmerman had two lacerations on the back of his head. A picture purportedly showing blood running down the back of Zimmerman's head was published by ABC News this morning."

Could the "lacerations" have occurred when Trayvon was trying to get away from GZ? We don't know; we also don't KNOW the whole statement GZ gave LE.

"Gilbreath testified that Zimmerman repeatedly contradicted himself while being interviewed by police and provided statements inconsistent with physical evidence and witness recollections." IMO, this could mean that GZ may have done something physical to provoke Trayvon, such as try to detain him and Trayvon tried to defend himself. Trayvon had NO CLUE who GZ was.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/20/george-zimmerman-bail-hearing_n_1440175.html

Plus GZ had no hair. How do you bang someone's head continually on the pavement when they have no hair without having injuries to your hands? I think that was the issue with no injuries to TM's hands. He would have had to have held the sides of GZ's head with his hands opening them up to injuries. Did he grab him by the ears???? The nose maybe (I think the nose would be too slippery to hold onto if he grabbed it to be honest). The story does not match the evidence. Plain and simple. jmo

Zak
04-28-2012, 05:17 PM
I've been wanting to say something for a long time now. I think now is a good time.

I would like to thank the owners and administrators here at Websleuths for providing us with such a wonderful place to discuss many topics/cases. :woohoo:

I would like to thank all of the moderators here, because I know their job is not easy. I'm sure at times they must feel unappreciated. I want all of the moderators to know that you are appreciated for the tremendous amount of time that you spend each day to make this site a safe and friendly place to voice our opinions. :woohoo:

To all of my fellow posters. Thank you all for caring so much, it doesn't matter which case, just the fact that you are all caring people. I know there are times when we all disagree and times when we all agree. There are times when we should take a step back from our computers and cool off. (That would make the moderators job a little easier) What we all need to remember is to respect our fellow posters opinions. I've met some wonderful people at this site. I, for one, would be lost without Websleuths and have enjoyed many hours just reading. :woohoo:

From my heart that is all that I wanted to say.

JBean
04-28-2012, 05:21 PM
I've been wanting to say something for a long time now. I think now is a good time.

I would like to thank the owners and administrators here at Websleuths for providing us with such a wonderful place to discuss many topics/cases. :woohoo:

I would like to thank all of the moderators here, because I know their job is not easy. I'm sure at times they must feel unappreciated. I want all of the moderators to know that you are appreciated for the tremendous amount of time that you spend each day to make this site a safe and friendly place to voice our opinions. :woohoo:

To all of my fellow posters. Thank you all for caring so much, it doesn't matter which case, just the fact that you are all caring people. I know there are times when we all disagree and times when we all agree. There are times when we should take a step back from our computers and cool off. (That would make the moderators job a little easier) What we all need to remember is to respect our fellow posters opinions. I've met some wonderful people at this site. I, for one, would be lost without Websleuths and have enjoyed many hours just reading. :woohoo:

From my heart that is all that I wanted to say.
That's nice Zak. The mods have really been working overtime in here and my hat is off to them as well. I just cruise in -create chaos and then am on my way.
But the admin and mods that do tend to this forum are incredible.
Of course the members are awesome and that goes without saying. The forum is what you all make it.

LambChop
04-28-2012, 05:21 PM
Thank you JBean. So, he says "that is going to be due". If you combine the two statements, the one about the parents mortgaging their house and this one, maybe the parents were waiting on a check and the bondsman had a promissory note?

Very puzzling - why wouldn't GZ just have the money taken out of the account? Perhaps only he could draw it out? Transferring the funds would take a few days, at least, so maybe the $5,000 came from viable funds in his possession. O'Mara is too ambiguous, IMO.

Transferring funds is done online now. A few days is from 20 years ago. I literally takes minutes now. I do it all the time. jmo

octobermoon
04-28-2012, 05:22 PM
I've been wanting to say something for a long time now. I think now is a good time.

I would like to thank the owners and administrators here at Websleuths for providing us with such a wonderful place to discuss many topics/cases. :woohoo:

I would like to thank all of the moderators here, because I know their job is not easy. I'm sure at times they must feel unappreciated. I want all of the moderators to know that you are appreciated for the tremendous amount of time that you spend each day to make this site a safe and friendly place to voice our opinions. :woohoo:

To all of my fellow posters. Thank you all for caring so much, it doesn't matter which case, just the fact that you are all caring people. I know there are times when we all disagree and times when we all agree. There are times when we should take a step back from our computers and cool off. (That would make the moderators job a little easier) What we all need to remember is to respect our fellow posters opinions. I've met some wonderful people at this site. I, for one, would be lost without Websleuths and have enjoyed many hours just reading. :woohoo:

From my heart that is all that I wanted to say.

:hug: :)

LambChop
04-28-2012, 05:24 PM
I've been wanting to say something for a long time now. I think now is a good time.

I would like to thank the owners and administrators here at Websleuths for providing us with such a wonderful place to discuss many topics/cases. :woohoo:

I would like to thank all of the moderators here, because I know their job is not easy. I'm sure at times they must feel unappreciated. I want all of the moderators to know that you are appreciated for the tremendous amount of time that you spend each day to make this site a safe and friendly place to voice our opinions. :woohoo:

To all of my fellow posters. Thank you all for caring so much, it doesn't matter which case, just the fact that you are all caring people. I know there are times when we all disagree and times when we all agree. There are times when we should take a step back from our computers and cool off. (That would make the moderators job a little easier) What we all need to remember is to respect our fellow posters opinions. I've met some wonderful people at this site. I, for one, would be lost without Websleuths and have enjoyed many hours just reading. :woohoo:

From my heart that is all that I wanted to say.

Now if we could just get Jane straightened out!!!! lol

JBean
04-28-2012, 05:26 PM
Thank you JBean. So, he says "that is going to be due". If you combine the two statements, the one about the parents mortgaging their house and this one, maybe the parents were waiting on a check and the bondsman had a promissory note?

Very puzzling - why wouldn't GZ just have the money taken out of the account? Perhaps only he could draw it out? Transferring the funds would take a few days, at least, so maybe the $5,000 came from viable funds in his possession. O'Mara is too ambiguous, IMO.bbm
Yeah I concur.
It seems that the family was trying to raise the entire 150k,despite MOM telling them that they should just get a bondsman and pay 10%. Now, remember if they had paid the entire 150 and he fulfilled his court obligations- they would get that whole amount back; so their cost would be zero at the end of the day.

By using the bondsman they will never see that 15k again. So, I understand why they did not want to spend the 15k but it apparently it just wasn't practical and/or they could not or decided not to pull it together.

Personally, I think there was a lot of confusion over that account and that is part of the problem.

annalia
04-28-2012, 05:28 PM
Plus GZ had no hair. How do you bang someone's head continually on the pavement when they have no hair without having injuries to your hands? I think that was the issue with no injuries to TM's hands. He would have had to have held the sides of GZ's head with his hands opening them up to injuries. Did he grab him by the ears???? The nose maybe (I think the nose would be too slippery to hold onto if he grabbed it to be honest). The story does not match the evidence. Plain and simple. jmo

BBM

I've asked that same question, what was he holding onto when he was supposedly bashing his head into the ground when GZ had no hair to hold on to? If he was holding on to the the sides of his heads, there would have been scrape marks on Trayvon's hands.

To respond to another one of your posts without quoting a second time, as far as what LE wrote on the police report that night regarding preventing a crime, it's really neither here nor there, they only had GZ's word to go on. And we all heard GZ's 911 call, no where in it does he ever say that Trayvon was actually committing any crime, unless walking while "looking about" is considered a crime. And I've said this before so I'm repeating myself here, there really wasn't much else that GZ could say other than it was all self defense, he certainly wasn't going to say he was guilty and he certainly knew that a dead boy could no longer dispute anything he says.

JMHO

JBean
04-28-2012, 05:29 PM
I saw that. I couldn't help but wonder, however, what did they consider important enough to spend the remaining $49K on? As O'Mara said, the bond fee would certainly have been a legitimate defense fund expense.
I think they are trying to navigate a volatile situation and they have no idea what to do.
JMHO of course.

TorisMom003
04-28-2012, 05:37 PM
"John" said that a man wearing a red sweater was on bottom. Neither Trayvon nor Zimmerman were wearing a red sweater so that makes me question if "John" really was close enough to see clearly or not. Personally I feel that if "John" can not be accurate in what either was wearing then I have to look at his entire account as questionable.

MOO

Nova
04-28-2012, 05:46 PM
LOL ~ OT
My 14 year old daughter was in the kitchen getting something to drink and saw on the fridge where I have been pulled for jury duty for next month. She came into the office and told me "Momma, those people are gonna hate you on that jury!" I asked her why and she said "Because you don't give up on anything and if you don't agree with them you will tell them so!" I think she has come to that conclussion because of my time spent on here at WS and from hearing me have "debates" with hubby over cases. LOL

I'm sure you'll be fine. I've been on a couple of juries and was well aware that my responsibilities there were somewhat different from the casual conversations/debates we have here. I had no problem deliberating in a civil and lawful manner.

Dr.Fessel
04-28-2012, 05:46 PM
"John" said that a man wearing a red sweater was on bottom. Neither Trayvon nor Zimmerman were wearing a red sweater so that makes me question if "John" really was close enough to see clearly or not. Personally I feel that if "John" can not be accurate in what either was wearing then I have to look at his entire account as questionable.

MOO Throw in that I believe the Officer taking his statement was leading him and coaxing him on what he saw and I think his testimony is about worthless. IMO

Nova
04-28-2012, 05:49 PM
I read that differently. I thought he had paid the full 15k-but only used 5k out of the paypal account towards it.

oh here this might help:

Last week the judge let out Zimmerman on $150,000 bail, of which his family spent three days scrambling to post the $15,000 needed for the bail bondsman. They even mortgaged one of their properties to come up with the money. It’s unclear why they did not use more of the PayPal funds.

Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/27/2770968_p2/zimmerman-attorney-to-tell-judge.html#storylink=cpy

It has been asked again and again why GZ let his parents put up their home as collateral when he had cash in the paypal account.

The answer is simple, I suspect: GZ intends to show up for trial, so he knows his parents' home isn't in danger. Any cash from the paypal account that he used for bond would not also be available for legal expenses.

As handled, there's a temporary lien on the property and plenty of money to pay for experts, tests, etc.

Phoenixfla
04-28-2012, 05:51 PM
My comments are in red. I'd also like to mention that my husband was in a accident, hit by a vehicle and thrown 10-15' landing on pavement surrounded by railroad ties. His head hit a railroad tie and landed on the pavement. GZ had more of a laceration on his head than my husband had. Hubby's forehead laceration was about an inch long and no stitches. He did have road rash on his arm and knee. Hubby was knocked unconscious and ended up with TBI. So I don't think we can look at one head injury and expect all to look the same.

I had missed until now that the FBI analyzed the scream and it was inconclusive or it was not TMs voice. I wonder if they used a sample of TMs voice in addition to GZs.

Interesting.

Nova
04-28-2012, 05:56 PM
bbm
You raise some interesting points Karmady. especially the one about George insisting he should be arrested. I can honestly say I don't think I thought of it in that way.

No one expects GZ to ask to be arrested. But to those of us who believe he lied to avoid arrest, that is damning enough.

Karmady
04-28-2012, 05:57 PM
"John" said that a man wearing a red sweater was on bottom. Neither Trayvon nor Zimmerman were wearing a red sweater so that makes me question if "John" really was close enough to see clearly or not. Personally I feel that if "John" can not be accurate in what either was wearing then I have to look at his entire account as questionable.

MOO

There are still only two people involved in the scuffle, and if Jonn saw the one on top dead in the grass and George is still alive, George would have to have been the one on the bottom yelling for help when John was outside, regardless of whether he was wearing a red jacket, fleece or sweater. Particularly since there's no dispute that Trayvon had on a gray sweatshirt with nothing red about it.

Personally, I think splitting hairs among the words sweater, jacket, fleece or whatever is just that - splitting hairs. The question is whether it was red and whether the person wearing it was on the bottom. Nonetheless, it still begs the question of how the altercation started in the first place and there, we have two witnesses (George or his family member and the gf) who agree that mildly confrontational words were exchanged. Imo, that's where the focus should be. How did both George and Travyon respond to those mildly confrontational words that both sides agree were spoken. Did Trayvon attack George because he was scared or po'd or both, or did George attack him and/or show him his weapon. Personally, I don't think we will ever know the answer to that question with certainty. That's why I think that there may be sufficient evidence to support a finding by the court that the preponderence establishes immunity at an SYG preliminary hearing, and certainly that the prosecution won't be able to prove murder 2 beyond a reasonable doubt unless there is some very significant evidence of which we are not yet aware. And that's true, imo, regardless of whether George is actually guilty or not. jmo

Dr.Fessel
04-28-2012, 05:58 PM
I had missed until now that the FBI analyzed the scream and it was inconclusive or it was not TMs voice. I wonder if they used a sample of TMs voice in addition to GZs.

Interesting.

Where are you getting that from?

JBean
04-28-2012, 05:58 PM
It has been asked again and again why GZ let his parents put up their home as collateral when he had cash in the paypal account.

The answer is simple, I suspect: GZ intends to show up for trial, so he knows his parents' home isn't in danger. Any cash from the paypal account that he used for bond would not also be available for legal expenses.

As handled, there's a temporary lien on the property and plenty of money to pay for experts, tests, etc.
I agree Nova. But,I just think perhaps they still had to consider if it made sense to avoid the entire 15k cost of the bondsman overall.
I think being thrust into a situation of this magnitude and not being versed on what it takes to succesfully maneuver through what could potentially be a long, expensive road they needed to weigh things out.
I mean pehaps in their minds there is not going to be a trial so why spend 15k if they didn't have to?
I am not addressing the propriety or impropriety of the funds or the disclosure of them- only addressing the practical use of them.

Nova
04-28-2012, 06:04 PM
Yes, same interview as I posted, in which John also states, "And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

Maybe he meant "stop" yelling? JMO

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation#ixzz1tN2jbYFE

Perhaps, but I suspect John was simply careless with the pronoun "he". As John is in the statement you quote above.

I speculate that John meant he told the guy on top to "stop" and then went to phone 911. (I also think it's possible that John simply assumed the guy on the bottom was the victim and therefore the one shouting, an assumption any of us might make.)

Elley Mae
04-28-2012, 06:06 PM
I went back and grabbed this link from Torismom

Where are you getting that from?

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html

O'MARA: Witnesses heard people arguing, sounded like a struggle. During this time, witnesses heard numerous calls for help. Some of this was recorded. Trayvon's mom reviewed the 911 calls and identified the cry for help and Trayvon Martin's voice. Did you do any forensic analysis on that voice tape?

GILBREATH: Did I?

O'MARA: Did you or are you aware of anything?

GILBREATH: The "Orlando Sentinel" had someone do it and the FBI has had someone do it.

O'MARA: Is that part of your investigation?

GILBREATH: Yes.

O'MARA: Has that given any insight as to the voice?

GILBREATH: No.

Adrienne37
04-28-2012, 06:09 PM
I had missed until now that the FBI analyzed the scream and it was inconclusive or it was not TMs voice. I wonder if they used a sample of TMs voice in addition to GZs.

Interesting.

Do you happen to have a link handy for this new revelation?


~jmo~

Zak
04-28-2012, 06:09 PM
Where are you getting that from?

It came from one of my previous posts. This is what we were talking about:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html

O'MARA: Witnesses heard people arguing, sounded like a struggle. During this time, witnesses heard numerous calls for help. Some of this was recorded. Trayvon's mom reviewed the 911 calls and identified the cry for help and Trayvon Martin's voice. Did you do any forensic analysis on that voice tape?

GILBREATH: Did I?

O'MARA: Did you or are you aware of anything?

GILBREATH: The "Orlando Sentinel" had someone do it and the FBI has had someone do it.

O'MARA: Is that part of your investigation?

GILBREATH: Yes.

O'MARA: Has that given any insight as to the voice?

GILBREATH: No.

Karmady
04-28-2012, 06:10 PM
Do you happen to have a link handy for this new revelation?


~jmo~

iirc, it was from the investigator's testimony at the bond hearing not too far upthread.

eta: nevah mind! Zak got it :)

Dr.Fessel
04-28-2012, 06:13 PM
There are still only two people involved in the scuffle, and if Jonn saw the one on top dead in the grass and George is still alive, George would have to have been the one on the bottom yelling for help when John was outside, regardless of whether he was wearing a red jacket, fleece or sweater. Particularly since there's no dispute that Trayvon had on a gray sweatshirt with nothing red about it.

Personally, I think splitting hairs among the words sweater, jacket, fleece or whatever is just that - splitting hairs. The question is whether it was red and whether the person wearing it was on the bottom. Nonetheless, it still begs the question of how the altercation started in the first place and there, we have two witnesses (George or his family member and the gf) who agree that mildly confrontational words were exchanged. Imo, that's where the focus should be. How did both George and Travyon respond to those mildly confrontational words that both sides agree were spoken. Did Trayvon attack George because he was scared or po'd or both, or did George attack him and/or show him his weapon. Personally, I don't think we will ever know the answer to that question with certainty. That's why I think that there may be sufficient evidence to support a finding by the court that the preponderence establishes immunity at an SYG preliminary hearing, and certainly that the prosecution won't be able to prove murder 2 beyond a reasonable doubt unless there is some very significant evidence of which we are not yet aware. And that's true, imo, regardless of whether George is actually guilty or not. jmo

BBM

I have a problem believing John standing inside his lighted home looking out into the dark seeing the color of a sweater which has black arms which was probably unzipped and saying it was red.

I think it is far more likely he saw the color of the jacket after he got up and was walking around and the police officer told him the guy who was walking around was the one on bottom.

IMO

Phoenixfla
04-28-2012, 06:15 PM
There are still only two people involved in the scuffle, and if Jonn saw the one on top dead in the grass and George is still alive, George would have to have been the one on the bottom yelling for help when John was outside, regardless of whether he was wearing a red jacket, fleece or sweater. Particularly since there's no dispute that Trayvon had on a gray sweatshirt with nothing red about it.

Personally, I think splitting hairs among the words sweater, jacket, fleece or whatever is just that - splitting hairs. The question is whether it was red and whether the person wearing it was on the bottom. Nonetheless, it still begs the question of how the altercation started in the first place and there, we have two witnesses (George or his family member and the gf) who agree that mildly confrontational words were exchanged. Imo, that's where the focus should be. How did both George and Travyon respond to those mildly confrontational words that both sides agree were spoken. Did Trayvon attack George because he was scared or po'd or both, or did George attack him and/or show him his weapon. Personally, I don't think we will ever know the answer to that question with certainty. That's why I think that there may be sufficient evidence to support a finding by the court that the preponderence establishes immunity at an SYG preliminary hearing, and certainly that the prosecution won't be able to prove murder 2 beyond a reasonable doubt unless there is some very significant evidence of which we are not yet aware. And that's true, imo, regardless of whether George is actually guilty or not. jmo

I think your right on the money. As I see it, neither of them were committing a crime until one lays a hand on the other. If that was GZ, then I think you have a case for manslaughter, possibly murder, but if it was TM that started the physical exchange, then GS acted in self defense, and potentially protected under SYG.

In the absence of any evidence of who touched the other first, you have to acquit.

Karmady
04-28-2012, 06:16 PM
BBM

I have a problem believing John standing inside his lighted home looking out into the dark seeing the color of a sweater which has black arms which was probably unzipped and saying it was red.

I think it is far more likely he saw the color of the jacket after he got up and was walking around and the police officer told him the guy who was walking around was the one on bottom.

IMO

I must have missed the part where John was inside. I was under the impression that he was outside and THEN went in and upstairs. I also missed the part where a police officer told John that the guy on the bottom was the guy walking around. I'm not gonna ask for links b/c I know that's a PITA, but if you have some handy.... :)

Adrienne37
04-28-2012, 06:17 PM
I think your right on the money. As I see it, neither of them were committing a crime until one lays a hand on the other. If that was GZ, then I think you have a case for manslaughter, possibly murder, but if it was TM that started the physical exchange, then GS acted in self defense, and potentially protected under SYG.

In the absence of any evidence of who touched the other, you have to accquit.

Truthfully we do not have a clue what there is for evidence in this case yet. It's not been released yet. The only thing we have is what the SPD has made sure to release in order to bolster their case.



~jmo~

Dr.Fessel
04-28-2012, 06:18 PM
It came from one of my previous posts. This is what we were talking about:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html

O'MARA: Witnesses heard people arguing, sounded like a struggle. During this time, witnesses heard numerous calls for help. Some of this was recorded. Trayvon's mom reviewed the 911 calls and identified the cry for help and Trayvon Martin's voice. Did you do any forensic analysis on that voice tape?

GILBREATH: Did I?

O'MARA: Did you or are you aware of anything?

GILBREATH: The "Orlando Sentinel" had someone do it and the FBI has had someone do it.

O'MARA: Is that part of your investigation?

GILBREATH: Yes.

O'MARA: Has that given any insight as to the voice?

GILBREATH: No.

I read that just like the Orlando Sentinel article he mentioned. The test gave them no insight into who's voice it was.

But unless the FBI test reported something completely different then the Sentinel's test we know the voice is not Zimmerman's.

Adrienne37
04-28-2012, 06:18 PM
BBM

I have a problem believing John standing inside his lighted home looking out into the dark seeing the color of a sweater which has black arms which was probably unzipped and saying it was red.

I think it is far more likely he saw the color of the jacket after he got up and was walking around and the police officer told him the guy who was walking around was the one on bottom.

IMO

Yep, sort of like the lady who was on the phone with 911 so long and how they told her something to the effect if it makes you feel better the one screaming is the one who is alive. Baloney with a capitol B. Talk about leading a witness.


~jmo~

Zak
04-28-2012, 06:19 PM
BBM

I have a problem believing John standing inside his lighted home looking out into the dark seeing the color of a sweater which has black arms which was probably unzipped and saying it was red.I think it is far more likely he saw the color of the jacket after he got up and was walking around and the police officer told him the guy who was walking around was the one on bottom.

IMO

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought John said he was outside and saw the altercation (the man in red on the bottom) and he went back inside through the patio door and locked it. He then ran upstairs to call 911 while he looked out the window. I will go listen once again........

Adrienne37
04-28-2012, 06:19 PM
Trayvon Martin shooting: It's not George Zimmerman crying for help on 911 recording, 2 experts say


A leading expert in the field of forensic voice identification sought to answer that question by analyzing the recordings for the Orlando Sentinel.

His result: It was not George Zimmerman who called for help.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/state/trayvon-martin-shooting-its-not-george-zimmerman-crying-2274765.html?printArticle=y

LambChop
04-28-2012, 06:22 PM
I had missed until now that the FBI analyzed the scream and it was inconclusive or it was not TMs voice. I wonder if they used a sample of TMs voice in addition to GZs.

Interesting.

GILBREATH: The "Orlando Sentinel" had someone do it and the FBI has had someone do it.

O'MARA: Is that part of your investigation?

GILBREATH: Yes.

O'MARA: Has that given any insight as to the voice?

GILBREATH: No.

This would be true because the only insight he has is that it was not GZ voice. They would need a copy of TM's voice in order to compare it to the tape of the screams. jmo

Elley Mae
04-28-2012, 06:22 PM
Please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought John said he was outside and saw the altercation (the man in red on the bottom) and he went back inside through the patio door and locked it. He then ran upstairs to call 911 while he looked out the window. I will go listen once again........

You are correct he was outside and then went in. He saw it from both.

Dr.Fessel
04-28-2012, 06:26 PM
I must have missed the part where John was inside. I was under the impression that he was outside and THEN went in and upstairs. I also missed the part where a police officer told John that the guy on the bottom was the guy walking around. I'm not gonna ask for links b/c I know that's a PITA, but if you have some handy.... :) It is all just speculation on my part and that is why I used words like " I think" and IMO

Nova
04-28-2012, 06:27 PM
I agree Nova. But,I just think perhaps they still had to consider if it made sense to avoid the entire 15k cost of the bondsman overall.
I think being thrust into a situation of this magnitude and not being versed on what it takes to succesfully maneuver through what could potentially be a long, expensive road they needed to weigh things out.
I mean pehaps in their minds there is not going to be a trial so why spend 15k if they didn't have to?
I am not addressing the propriety or impropriety of the funds or the disclosure of them- only addressing the practical use of them.

J, I hadn't gotten to that post of yours when I posted my own thoughts on keeping money free for defense costs.

Until this discussion, I didn't realize the 10% paid to a bondsman was non-refundable. I'm sure that realization would give me pause if it were my son who needed bail. Not that I don't love him, but how many people have $15K to burn? Your argument that they may have taken a few days trying to get around that expense makes sense to me.

I was talking about the entirety of the $150K and why GZ didn't just write a check from his paypal money. As I said, I think MO'M convinced him and the family that whatever funds were in the paypal account would be needed for other things. (How MO'M did so without ever asking how much money was in the account must be one of those magical lawyer's tricks!)

impatientredhead
04-28-2012, 06:29 PM
I read that just like the Orlando Sentinel article he mentioned. The test gave them no insight into who's voice it was.

But unless the FBI test reported something completely different then the Sentinel's test we know the voice is not Zimmerman's.

By the time a trial rolls around I think you will have a defense expert that says it is zimmerman or it is inconclusive or the whole science is questionable.

Dr.Fessel
04-28-2012, 06:30 PM
Yep, sort of like the lady who was on the phone with 911 so long and how they told her something to the effect if it makes you feel better the one screaming is the one who is alive. Baloney with a capitol B. Talk about leading a witness.


~jmo~

Exactly, it is that kind of "reinforcing the facts" with unknowns that keep a witness from remembering later some other specific facts of the case and reporting it. LE did not know for a fact it was Zimmerman on the bottom.

LambChop
04-28-2012, 06:31 PM
I think your right on the money. As I see it, neither of them were committing a crime until one lays a hand on the other. If that was GZ, then I think you have a case for manslaughter, possibly murder, but if it was TM that started the physical exchange, then GS acted in self defense, and potentially protected under SYG.

In the absence of any evidence of who touched the other, you have to accquit.

I believe if the evidence does not agree with the story GZ has told they would not acquit. Evidence does not support GZ stories of how it happened. Take your pick, the evidence does not match any of them. jmo

LambChop
04-28-2012, 06:35 PM
By the time a trial rolls around I think you will have a defense expert that says it is zimmerman or it is inconclusive or the whole science is questionable.

Or the ultimate question......"Are you a chemist?" lol

Phoenixfla
04-28-2012, 06:37 PM
Where are you getting that from?

The post that I was quoting from, but the entire post did not come through in the post. Its back a page or two, but in this thread.

Karmady
04-28-2012, 06:38 PM
It is all just speculation on my part and that is why I used words like " I think" and IMO

Okay, but in fairness to me, neither the part of your post about him being inside, nor the part about what an officer told him were part of your "I think" comment.

Your post:

I have a problem believing John standing inside his lighted home looking out into the dark seeing the color of a sweater which has black arms which was probably unzipped and saying it was red.

I think it is far more likely he saw the color of the jacket after he got up and was walking around and the police officer told him the guy who was walking around was the one on bottom.

IMO

jjenny
04-28-2012, 06:39 PM
I read that just like the Orlando Sentinel article he mentioned. The test gave them no insight into who's voice it was.

But unless the FBI test reported something completely different then the Sentinel's test we know the voice is not Zimmerman's.

We know nothing of the sort.

vlpate
04-28-2012, 06:41 PM
Could the "lacerations" have occurred when Trayvon was trying to get away from GZ? We don't know; we also don't KNOW the whole statement GZ gave LE. IMO, this could mean that GZ may have done something physical to provoke Trayvon, such as try to detain him and Trayvon tried to defend himself. Trayvon had NO CLUE who GZ was.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/20/george-zimmerman-bail-hearing_n_1440175.html
I don't think I've read anything stating Martin was being held by GZ and trying to get away, but we can absolutely speculate. In this speculation, did Trayvon hit GZ with something to the back of his head while trying to get away, which caused the lacerations? Seems that would be an awkward dynamic, JMO.
"Gilbreath testified that Zimmerman repeatedly contradicted himself while being interviewed by police and provided statements inconsistent with physical evidence and witness recollections."
This (cited Huffpo article), is the reporter's interpretation of Gilbreath's testimony. The actual transcript (CNN), (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html) does not say this. In fact, this is what the transcript says:

"UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And isn't it true that in some of those statement when you were confronted about your inconsistencies, you started "I don't remember"?

O'MARA: Outside the scope of direct examination. I will object your honor.

JUDGE LESTER: We'll give you a little bit of leeway. Not a whole lot but a little bit here, ok.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn't it true that when you were questioned about the contradictions in your statements that the police didn't believe it, that you would say "I don't remember"? "
<snip>
IMO, there is nothing and no one that contradicts his story during the time before and after the altercation (see below)

"O'MARA: That statement that he had given you -- sorry, law enforcement that day, that we just talked about, turning around and that he was assaulted, do you have any evidence in your investigation to date that specifically contradicts either of those two pieces of evidence that were in his statement given several hours after the event?

GILBREATH: Which two?

O'MARA: That he turned back to his car. We'll start with that one.

GILBREATH: I have nothing to indicate he did not or did not to that.

O'MARA: My question was do you have any evidence to contradict or that conflicts with his contention given before he knew any of the evidence that would conflict with the fact that he stated I walked back to my car?

GILBREATH: No.

O'MARA: No evidence. Correct?

GILBREATH: Understanding -- are you talking about at that point in time?

O'MARA: Since. Today. Do you have any evidence that conflicts with his suggestion that he had turned around and went back to his car?

GILBREATH: Other than his statement, no.
<snip>
O'MARA: Any evidence that conflicts any eyewitnesses, anything that conflicts with the contention that Mr. Martin assaulted first?

GILBREATH: That contention that was given to us by him, other than filling in the figures being one following or chasing the other one, as to who threw the first blow, no. "
Red emphasis mine.

Welcome to the forum, by the way!!

LambChop
04-28-2012, 06:46 PM
Okay, but in fairness to me, neither the part of your post about him being inside, nor the part about what an officer told him were part of your "I think" comment.

Your post:

I have a problem believing John standing inside his lighted home looking out into the dark seeing the color of a sweater which has black arms which was probably unzipped and saying it was red.

I think it is far more likely he saw the color of the jacket after he got up and was walking around and the police officer told him the guy who was walking around was the one on bottom.

IMO

The only black on the arms of GZ's jacket is off the shoulder. The rest of the arm on the jacket is red, not black. On the picture of his bloody head it appears his jacket arms are all black if he is, indeed, holding that phone to his ear??? But the night of the shooting the jacket he had on the arms were mostly red. Black across the shoulder area to the cap of the shoulder area the rest of the arm is red. jmo

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/30/tagblogsfindlawcom2012-blotter-idUS290836921920120330

Dr.Fessel
04-28-2012, 06:46 PM
Anyone have more about John's statement then what he says in this video? I really wonder who this guy is standing around with his hands in his pocket and texting. No notebook or anything.

Witness say Trayvon Martin attacked George Zimmerman (Update)--"Arrest Video Proves Wrong" - YouTube

Phoenixfla
04-28-2012, 06:47 PM
I read that just like the Orlando Sentinel article he mentioned. The test gave them no insight into who's voice it was.

But unless the FBI test reported something completely different then the Sentinel's test we know the voice is not Zimmerman's.

If the tests showed the voice was not GZ then why did the investigator say that the analysis gave him no insight into who's voice it is. Its gotta be either TM or GZ and if he concluded it was not GZ then the only possible other choice is TM.

I believe that the FBI either opined that it was inconclusive, or they opined that it was GZ and Gilbreath discarded both results as they were contradicting.

Dr.Fessel
04-28-2012, 06:50 PM
If John got such a good look you would think he would have said the black guy was on top. Never says a word about what the guy on top was wearing. IMO

octobermoon
04-28-2012, 06:52 PM
I'll bet a time out that is Trayvon Martin screaming, crying out for assistance.

JMO IMO MOO

LambChop
04-28-2012, 06:54 PM
We know nothing of the sort.

But we do know as of right now that the tests that were done by two experts both claim it was not GZ's voice and cannot identify the voice because they had no sample of TM's voice. If they do more testing by other experts and they all conclude that it is not GZ's voice that is exactly what the jury will hear. That it was not GZ that was screaming in horror for his life. jmo

Dr.Fessel
04-28-2012, 06:54 PM
If the tests showed the voice was not GZ then why did the investigator say that the analysis gave him no insight into who's voice it is. Its gotta be either TM or GZ and if he concluded it was not GS then the only possible other choice is TM.

I believe that the FBI either opined that it was inconclusive, or they opined that it was GZ and Gilbreath discarded both results as they were contradicting. O'Mara never asked him if it was Zimmerman's just if he had any insight into it.

insight [ˈɪnˌsaɪt]
n
1. the ability to perceive clearly or deeply; penetration

I think his answer was right on even if it ruled out Zimmerman and you notice O'Mara did not ask if it was Zimmerman's voice because he knew what the Sentinel already said. IMO

mercuriod
04-28-2012, 06:56 PM
Anyone have more about John's statement then what he says in this video? I really wonder who this guy is standing around with his hands in his pocket and texting. No notebook or anything.

Witness say Trayvon Martin attacked George Zimmerman (Update)--"Arrest Video Proves Wrong" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuPmu8UUbpQ)

OK, doc, not going to say how I know, so will just say jmo, that is the "infamous" narcotics officer. He was off duty and called in to the investigation so he is not in uniform.

jjenny
04-28-2012, 06:56 PM
If the tests showed the voice was not GZ then why did the investigator say that the analysis gave him no insight into who's voice it is. Its gotta be either TM or GZ and if he concluded it was not GS then the only possible other choice is TM.

I believe that the FBI either opined that it was inconclusive, or they opined that it was GZ and Gilbreath discarded both results as they were contradicting.

Standards call for comparing speech containing words to speech containing words, not comparing screaming (with very few words) to speech. This expert for the newspaper was using some sort of new technology and then claimed he ruled Zimmerman out, without ruling Trayvon in. For all I know Trayvon's voice wouldn't match either. First one has to demonstrate their technology is reliable and accurate for it to even be allowed into court.

LambChop
04-28-2012, 06:57 PM
If the tests showed the voice was not GZ then why did the investigator say that the analysis gave him no insight into who's voice it is. Its gotta be either TM or GZ and if he concluded it was not GS then the only possible other choice is TM.

I believe that the FBI either opined that it was inconclusive, or they opined that it was GZ and Gilbreath discarded both results as they were contradicting.

The FBI is not obligated to tell the SA anything if they are conducting their own investigation and we do know the FBI is never in a hurry to release their reports. Think back to the months and months of whinning from JB. lol

Adrienne37
04-28-2012, 06:59 PM
Trayvon's family is so blessed to have these attorneys on their side.

Martin family attorney addresses Rainbow PUSH...

Crump has called this revelation "a bombshell.'" Zimmerman was released from jail this week after posting bond.

"Trayvon Martin is dead," Crump said. "We don't know his version of what happened. The only other witness now is George Zimmerman and it's his credibility. And if he'll lie about little things like money and bond hearings, we know he'll lie about big things dealing with whether he's going to be convicted of second-degree murder."

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=8640403

Karmady
04-28-2012, 07:00 PM
The only black on the arms of GZ's jacket is off the shoulder. The rest of the arm on the jacket is red, not black. On the picture of his bloody head it appears his jacket arms are all black if he is, indeed, holding that phone to his ear??? But the night of the shooting the jacket he had on the arms were mostly red. Black across the shoulder area to the cap of the shoulder area the rest of the arm is red. jmo

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/30/tagblogsfindlawcom2012-blotter-idUS290836921920120330

Sorry, LC, I'm not following whether this is directed at me or Dr.F, whose post I c&p'd rather than quoted (b/c I was already in the reply box and it was easier :blushing:). It's my understanding that a significant part of the George's jacket was red, and that Trayvon was not wearing any red at all.

jjenny
04-28-2012, 07:02 PM
Sorry, LC, I'm not following whether this is directed at me or Dr.F, whose post I c&p'd rather than quoted (b/c I was already in the reply box and it was easier :blushing:). It's my understanding that a significant part of the George's jacket was red, and that Trayvon was not wearing any red at all.

GZ's jacket is red with black stripe on the back. Trayvon was wearing a grey hoodie (nothing red).

LambChop
04-28-2012, 07:02 PM
Standards call for comparing speech containing words to speech containing words, not comparing screaming (with very few words) to speech. This expert for the newspaper was using some sort of new technology and then claimed he ruled Zimmerman out, without ruling Trayvon in. For all I know Trayvon's voice wouldn't match either. First one has to demonstrate their technology is reliable and accurate for it to even be allowed into court.

Well, I think what's been described in this post would make any tests they had done inadmissible on the basis for which you just described it. I believe they were a little more scientific and technical in how they reached their conclusions. And there were two of them doing different tests. jmo

mercuriod
04-28-2012, 07:03 PM
Sorry, LC, I'm not following whether this is directed at me or Dr.F, whose post I c&p'd rather than quoted (b/c I was already in the reply box and it was easier :blushing:). It's my understanding that a significant part of the George's jacket was red, and that Trayvon was not wearing any red at all.

Except perhaps all his blood after GZ shot him point blank in the chest, then I would venture to guess that his gray hoodie was almost completely red.

LambChop
04-28-2012, 07:05 PM
Sorry, LC, I'm not following whether this is directed at me or Dr.F, whose post I c&p'd rather than quoted (b/c I was already in the reply box and it was easier :blushing:). It's my understanding that a significant part of the George's jacket was red, and that Trayvon was not wearing any red at all.

At the good doctor, lol. Or anyone who thinks GZ's sleeves were all black. I think the confusion is from the latest picture of the back of GZ's head because it looks as if his jacket arm is all black....even the lower part. We know that is not true. So why does the arm appear in that picture to be black??? jmo

Karmady
04-28-2012, 07:06 PM
But we do know as of right now that the tests that were done by two experts both claim it was not GZ's voice and cannot identify the voice because they had no sample of TM's voice. If they do more testing by other experts and they all conclude that it is not GZ's voice that is exactly what the jury will hear. That it was not GZ that was screaming in horror for his life. jmo

Imo, that will NEVER happen. The State will also have to contend with Trayvon's father's initial statement that it was NOT Trayvon yelling.

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 07:06 PM
I wonder what color shirt Trayvon had on underneath the hoodie? Did we ever get any details on that?

Zak
04-28-2012, 07:06 PM
I read that just like the Orlando Sentinel article he mentioned. The test gave them no insight into who's voice it was.

But unless the FBI test reported something completely different then the Sentinel's test we know the voice is not Zimmerman's.

I'd bet the farm that the FBI testing came back with a different result than the Orlando Sentinel. If it came back and matched that it was Trayvon then I've no doubt that Gilbreath would have said so when he testified. If he has the results of the guys hired by the Orlando Sentinel which say its Trayvon and the FBI concurs with that, he wouldn't have answered that neither test gave him any insight into whose voice it was.

Just K
04-28-2012, 07:08 PM
I have given this much thought too. And I find it much more terrifying that someone can call police, follow a handbook of what to tell police and go down the list on that call, stalk and murder an unarmed kid who went for candy and tea and not get arrested for it on the spot. That is terrifying. That is not at all how things are supposed to happen in this country. Wrongful persecution, I think not. May George be safe and have his day in court but remember in America it is alright to speak up when a travesty has been committed and those against killing kids are speaking up. George is in the spotlight, he put himself there and may it shine brightly.
Perfect Summation!

Dr.Fessel
04-28-2012, 07:08 PM
Sorry, LC, I'm not following whether this is directed at me or Dr.F, whose post I c&p'd rather than quoted (b/c I was already in the reply box and it was easier :blushing:). It's my understanding that a significant part of the George's jacket was red, and that Trayvon was not wearing any red at all. With George laying on his back I would think a large portion of what John could see of the jacket would be black at least from the video I have seen of the jacket. IMO

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 07:09 PM
Imo, that will NEVER happen. The State will also have to contend with Trayvon's father's initial statement that it was NOT Trayvon yelling.

I would take the word of an expert over that of a father who just lost his son any day! You can't expect a father to be able to comprehend that those screams were his sons. That is for the experts to decide.

IMO, I do believe that both George and Trayvon could have been yelling at different moments, however, those last few seconds of Trayvon's life and listening to those screams and as soon as the shot is fired those screams go silent? That was Trayvon.

MOO

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 07:10 PM
I'd bet the farm that the FBI testing came back with a different result than the Orlando Sentinel. If it came back and matched that it was Trayvon then I've no doubt that Gilbreath would have said so when he testified. If he has the results of the guys hired by the Orlando Sentinel which say its Trayvon and the FBI concurs with that, he wouldn't have answered that neither test gave him any insight into whose voice it was.

Did they say if the tests had even come back yet? Maybe that is why he didn't have any insight?

LambChop
04-28-2012, 07:11 PM
Imo, that will NEVER happen. The State will also have to contend with Trayvon's father's initial statement that it was NOT Trayvon yelling.

I don't think the State has to deal with anything. Once they play the tape it will be obvious on the parents faces that they are listening to their son screaming in horror. I believe Mr. Martin said the second time he heard the tape it was much clearer than the first time and he agreed it was his son. Since the tapes have been "cleared" up from when we originally heard them it does sound more like a kid than an adult. jmo

i.b.nora
04-28-2012, 07:12 PM
Didn't Trayvon have red and white shoes on?

Zak
04-28-2012, 07:12 PM
If John got such a good look you would think he would have said the black guy was on top. Never says a word about what the guy on top was wearing. IMO

I just listened to his 911 call and in it he does say that the black guy is on the ground and dead. Please that not verbatim. I think he said black guy and not the guy in black. Anyone know for sure because I don't feel like getting the headset back out and listening again, lol.

CathyinTexas
04-28-2012, 07:12 PM
iirc it is guestamated to take about a year to come to trial, they were renting the town home and probably had a year lease. Probably will pay the rent up to end lease, and are now living some place else they (will probably have to pay) still have all their other bills they had when they left, car, insurance, tuitions, etc, etc. $50,000 for two people to survive off of is not much. I for one do not feel the money is spent. It (the missing amount) was probably moved to an account that they (the z's) have access to. They will probably have to end up moving more from the defense account to their living expenses account before it is over. jmo

What really bothers me about this is how many people in our country want to support an accused murderer. It as if his crime pays. It is disgusting. jmo

Dr.Fessel
04-28-2012, 07:13 PM
I'd bet the farm that the FBI testing came back with a different result than the Orlando Sentinel. If it came back and matched that it was Trayvon then I've no doubt that Gilbreath would have said so when he testified. If he has the results of the guys hired by the Orlando Sentinel which say its Trayvon and the FBI concurs with that, he wouldn't have answered that neither test gave him any insight into whose voice it was.
You have to remember though Gilbreath is giving out as little as possible about the evidence as possible.

I believe O'Mara is trying to make everything look shaky to the judge and the public to help lower the bond request and to keep the donations coming in. I think that is why he never specifically asked if it was Zimmerman's voice. IMO

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 07:13 PM
I still want to know who the neighbor was that took that picture? I want to know why it was so important to take a picture of George's head and not help the dying kid on the ground? You know, the unarmed one that wasn't moving compared to the man who was up, walking around, and making phone calls?

MOO

LambChop
04-28-2012, 07:13 PM
Did they say if the tests had even come back yet? Maybe that is why he didn't have any insight?

If the tests were in they'd have to release them in discovery just like the other reports they will have. jmo

octobermoon
04-28-2012, 07:15 PM
Tippy toeing in with this jumbled question, does anyone know if a man has claimed SYG against a woman or teenage girl and was successful? IYKWIM and IANSIKWIM

IANSIKWIM= I am not sure I know what I mean :D

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 07:15 PM
What really bothers me about this is how many people in our country want to support an accused murderer. It as if his crime pays. It is disgusting. jmo

And they are doing it all in the name of "gun rights" when this case has nothing to do with anyone's right to carry a gun. That is what confuses me so much. Gun owners should be mad at George... not supporting him!

MOO

Karmady
04-28-2012, 07:15 PM
I would take the word of an expert over that of a father who just lost his son any day! You can't expect a father to be able to comprehend that those screams were his sons. That is for the experts to decide.

IMO, I do believe that both George and Trayvon could have been yelling at different moments, however, those last few seconds of Trayvon's life and listening to those screams and as soon as the shot is fired those screams go silent? That was Trayvon.

MOO

Right wrt to the father. But they will still need to address it. I would argue that a grieving father pursuing justice for his son might err in the opposite direction, if anything.

That said, the first part of my post was about getting 100% expert agreement that it was not George yelling. Imo, that will never happen. Even putting aside the percentage match the Sentinal's expert gave. If the FBI says it was Trayvon, I would give it a better chance that no expert will contradict. But based on the investigator's testimony at the bond hearing, it doesn't sound to ME like that is the case. jmo

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 07:16 PM
You have to remember though Gilbreath is giving out as little as possible about the evidence as possible.

I believe O'Mara is trying to make everything look shaky to the judge and the public to help lower the bond request and to keep the donations coming in. I think that is why he never specifically asked if it was Zimmerman's voice. IMO

Exactly! It was a bond hearing! Nothing more... even though O'Mara tried to put on a mini-trial.

MOO

Zak
04-28-2012, 07:17 PM
I don't think the State has to deal with anything. Once they play the tape it will be obvious on the parents faces that they are listening to their son screaming in horror. I believe Mr. Martin said the second time he heard the tape it was much clearer than the first time and he agreed it was his son. Since the tapes have been "cleared" up from when we originally heard them it does sound more like a kid than an adult. jmo

Respectfully, I've heard the Zimmerman family claim its GZ calling for help. I've no reason not to believe the witness John who was right there and he hasn't made the TV show rounds seeking any publicity.

Dr.Fessel
04-28-2012, 07:18 PM
I just listened to his 911 call and in it he does say that the black guy is on the ground and dead. Please that not verbatim. I think he said black guy and not the guy in black. Anyone know for sure because I don't feel like getting the headset back out and listening again, lol.

Do we know for sure which 911 call is John's or a good guess? Wasn't there one where they say the black guy is walking around?

I need to listen to them again.

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 07:19 PM
Do we know for sure which 911 call is John's or a good guess? Wasn't there one where they say the black guy is walking around?

I need to listen to them again.

I think John was the first call that was released?

MOO

Phoenixfla
04-28-2012, 07:20 PM
I believe if the evidence does not agree with the story GZ has told they would not acquit. Evidence does not support GZ stories of how it happened. Take your pick, the evidence does not match any of them. jmo

Well that's the prosecution's position, and I expect the defense to take that same evidence and present it in a way that supports his story. I'm with you that if the evidence dramatically contradicts his story, find him guilty, but i'm just saying that some of the posters here (not necessarily you) 100% believe the prosecution, they put 100% faith in anything that supports convicting GZ, and discount anything that supports his story.

I just want him to get a fair trial. I think the media has convicted him already, and the evidence has barely started to be released.

I don't want to set a guilty man free, but I definitely do not want to jail an innocent man.

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 07:21 PM
Respectfully, I've heard the Zimmerman family claim its GZ calling for help. I've no reason not to believe the witness John who was right there and he hasn't made the TV show rounds seeking any publicity.

This is where I have a problem. I'm not sure John was close enough to see who was screaming. I'm not sure that it was LE who, like with two other witnesses, told THEM that it was GZ screaming.

We have not heard from John since they knocked on his door that day. We have no idea what he told the SA about what he actually saw that night and what he heard. He could have just as easily, as the other two witnesses, been told that it was GZ screaming.

MOO

mercuriod
04-28-2012, 07:25 PM
I just listened to his 911 call and in it he does say that the black guy is on the ground and dead. Please that not verbatim. I think he said black guy and not the guy in black. Anyone know for sure because I don't feel like getting the headset back out and listening again, lol.

No I absolutely disagree with this, I suggest unfortunately you may have to listen yet again.

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 07:26 PM
What is going to matter is the depositions! All these statements, IMO, are going to be moot because the investigators were leading witnesses to a conclusion that it was GZ screaming. Until we see John's deposition, we have no idea if he ALSO was told by LE that it was GZ screaming and that is why he told the media that it was GZ screaming.

We'll just have to wait and see.

MOO

Phoenixfla
04-28-2012, 07:28 PM
If John got such a good look you would think he would have said the black guy was on top. Never says a word about what the guy on top was wearing. IMO

I thought his hood was up?

LambChop
04-28-2012, 07:28 PM
Right wrt to the father. But they will still need to address it. I would argue that a grieving father pursuing justice for his son might err in the opposite direction, if anything.

That said, the first part of my post was about getting 100% expert agreement that it was not George yelling. Imo, that will never happen. Even putting aside the percentage match the Sentinal's expert gave. If the FBI says it was Trayvon, I would give it a better chance that no expert will contradict. But based on the investigator's testimony at the bond hearing, it doesn't sound to ME like that is the case. jmo

The question was asked about the voice, not whether or not the voice belonged to GZ. Had MOM asked that question the inspector would have said the conclusion from both tests were that it was not consistent with GZ's voice. We already know that. MOM deliberately asked about identifying the voice. No test was done on TM's voice by the OS experts but we know the FBI performed tests. MOM did not ask if the inspector had seen the results of the FBI tests and seriously doubt they have been released because the FBI and Justice Department still have an ongoing investigation. jmo

mercuriod
04-28-2012, 07:28 PM
I still want to know who the neighbor was that took that picture? I want to know why it was so important to take a picture of George's head and not help the dying kid on the ground? You know, the unarmed one that wasn't moving compared to the man who was up, walking around, and making phone calls?

MOO

Oh hallelujah sister, as one of my first posts about this supposed picture stated, whoever took that pic if it is really GZ has just as depraved mind as GZ does, it is more "important" to them to take a picture of a TEENY, TINY SCRATCH, than to try to help a dying child. SICK, SICK, SICK!

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 07:31 PM
I thought his hood was up?

I'd think the color "white" or "gray" would stand out more than "black" or "red."

Like I said... depositions are going to be a lot more important than what these witnesses have said to the media. They will be under oath and have to give a full account of exactly what they saw and what they heard.

Eye witnesses have always been bad. They all see something different. That is why forensic evidence and GZ's story of what happened means so much. If GZ account doesn't match up to the evidence... well the only conclusion we can come to is that he is lying.

MOO

Phoenixfla
04-28-2012, 07:31 PM
I'll bet a time out that is Trayvon Martin screaming, crying out for assistance.

JMO IMO MOO

I'll see that timeout and raise you a three day suspension that it was GZ.

suzihawk
04-28-2012, 07:32 PM
Right wrt to the father. But they will still need to address it. I would argue that a grieving father pursuing justice for his son might err in the opposite direction, if anything.

That said, the first part of my post was about getting 100% expert agreement that it was not George yelling. Imo, that will never happen. Even putting aside the percentage match the Sentinal's expert gave. If the FBI says it was Trayvon, I would give it a better chance that no expert will contradict. But based on the investigator's testimony at the bond hearing, it doesn't sound to ME like that is the case. jmo

And I would argue that the defendant and his defense team might 'err' in whatever direction would tend to keep him from spending the rest of his natural life in prison for following, confronting and shooting an unarmed teenager to death.

IMO

vlpate
04-28-2012, 07:32 PM
I think they are trying to navigate a volatile situation and they have no idea what to do.
JMHO of course.

I agree about the navigation, but all of this could have been avoided - O'Mara could have simply told the Judge and not the media. Defense attorneys always have a reason when they get in front of the camera. What is it??

4/10 Zimmerman put up his website with a paypal account attached
4/11 Zimmerman hires O'Mara
4/12 Zimmerman is arrested

Looking at the time linel, I don't see how he could have raised $200,000 in two days, the time GZ was running it. Unless someone let GZ know about the money while he was in jail, I also don't know how he would have knowledge of the amount. Aren't calls and visits to inmates recorded?

octobermoon
04-28-2012, 07:35 PM
I'll see that timeout and raise you a three day suspension that it was GZ.

Your on. or whatever I am suppose to say. :D

(ssshhhhh, don't let the mods know we are gambling ;))

Phoenixfla
04-28-2012, 07:37 PM
O'Mara never asked him if it was Zimmerman's just if he had any insight into it.

insight [ˈɪnˌsaɪt]
n
1. the ability to perceive clearly or deeply; penetration

I think his answer was right on even if it ruled out Zimmerman and you notice O'Mara did not ask if it was Zimmerman's voice because he knew what the Sentinel already said. IMO

I don't understand. If the FBI concluded it was not GZ, and the two experts concluded it was not GZ, who else could it possibly be?

To me it indicates the FBI results were inconclusive or that they found that it was more likely GZ.

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 07:39 PM
I agree about the navigation, but all of this could have been avoided - O'Mara could have simply told the Judge and not the media. Defense attorneys always have a reason when they get in front of the camera. What is it??

4/10 Zimmerman put up his website with a paypal account attached
4/11 Zimmerman hires O'Mara
4/12 Zimmerman is arrested

Looking at the time linel, I don't see how he could have raised $200,000 in two days, the time GZ was running it. Unless someone let GZ know about the money while he was in jail, I also don't know how he would have knowledge of the amount. Aren't calls and visits to inmates recorded?

The Judge will be looking into it. I'm not really worried? I don't really care about the money. People can spend their money how they wish. I don't like that some of his family may have lied, but I'm used to families lying under oath now. :shrugs:

Zak
04-28-2012, 07:39 PM
I would take the word of an expert over that of a father who just lost his son any day! You can't expect a father to be able to comprehend that those screams were his sons. That is for the experts to decide.

IMO, I do believe that both George and Trayvon could have been yelling at different moments, however, those last few seconds of Trayvon's life and listening to those screams and as soon as the shot is fired those screams go silent? That was Trayvon. MOO

BBM

So then if GZ is on the bottom (after being punched in the nose, having his head banged off of the concrete) and Trayvon is on the top of him..... with GZ screaming for help....they are fighting over the gun....GZ gets it first and shoots Trayvon.....at that point you would expect GZ to continue screaming for help even after the struggle is over? I think the screams for help going silent when the shot is fired works both ways. JMO

LambChop
04-28-2012, 07:39 PM
Well that's the prosecution's position, and I expect the defense to take that same evidence and present it in a way that supports his story. I'm with you that if the evidence dramatically contradicts his story, find him guilty, but i'm just saying that some of the posters here (not necessarily you) 100% believe the prosecution, they put 100% faith in anything that supports convicting GZ, and discount anything that supports his story.

I just want him to get a fair trial. I think the media has convicted him already, and the evidence has barely started to be released.

I don't want to set a guilty man free, but I definitely do not want to jail an innocent man.

To be truthful I think the minute his story conflicted with the evidence (which was right away according to the homocide detective) GZ convicted himself. My problem with GZ was the minute he stepped out of the truck and did not listen to LE when they told him to return to the truck to meet patrol when they arrived. At that point I believe he decided TM's fate for him. jmo

sleonardelli
04-28-2012, 07:40 PM
Imo, that will NEVER happen. The State will also have to contend with Trayvon's father's initial statement that it was NOT Trayvon yelling.

That is what Chief Lee indicated (darn, so many articles and I can't find the one I saw where Chief Lee said this); I have NOT heard the words from Tracy Martin himself. The mother declared the screams were Trayvon's. If you have any links

I'd bet the farm that the FBI testing came back with a different result than the Orlando Sentinel. If it came back and matched that it was Trayvon then I've no doubt that Gilbreath would have said so when he testified. If he has the results of the guys hired by the Orlando Sentinel which say its Trayvon and the FBI concurs with that, he wouldn't have answered that neither test gave him any insight into whose voice it was.

IDK, could it be the SA doesn't have the FBI's result? I've seen a LOT of ambiguous testimony at the bond hearing.

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 07:41 PM
I don't understand. If the FBI concluded it was not GZ, and the two experts concluded it was not GZ, who else could it possibly be?

To me it indicates the FBI results were inconclusive or that they found that it was more likely GZ.

I don't know if it even indicates that the FBI results came back yet? This wasn't a Frye Hearing or a hearing on evidence. This was a bond hearing.

MOO

sleonardelli
04-28-2012, 07:42 PM
If John got such a good look you would think he would have said the black guy was on top. Never says a word about what the guy on top was wearing. IMO

I think it's been said before, in this thread, that he could've been "coached" a little. It would be interesting to hear his testimony if this makes it to trial.

Phoenixfla
04-28-2012, 07:42 PM
I'd bet the farm that the FBI testing came back with a different result than the Orlando Sentinel. If it came back and matched that it was Trayvon then I've no doubt that Gilbreath would have said so when he testified. If he has the results of the guys hired by the Orlando Sentinel which say its Trayvon and the FBI concurs with that, he wouldn't have answered that neither test gave him any insight into whose voice it was.

Also, O'Mara took a huge risk asking that question if he did not already know the answer. He knew the answer because it was GZ screaming. If Gilbreath would have come back and said "Yes, we have concluded with a high probability that it was not GZ that screamed on the 911 call", it would have been the headline of every newspaper around the world. It was a huge risk.

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 07:44 PM
BBM

So then if GZ is on the bottom (after being punched in the nose, having his head banged off of the concrete) and Trayvon is on the top of him..... with GZ screaming for help....they are fighting over the gun....GZ gets it first and shoots Trayvon.....at that point you would expect GZ to continue screaming for help even after the struggle is over? I think the screams for help going silent when the shot is fired works both ways. JMO

Actually, I would not expect George to stop screaming, calmly get up, and make a phone call. I would expect for him to continue screaming for help, screaming for someone to call 911, to call police, etc... instead, he calmly got up and made a phone call. :banghead: To who?? We'll find out soon enough.

MOO

LambChop
04-28-2012, 07:44 PM
BBM

So then if GZ is on the bottom (after being punched in the nose, having his head banged off of the concrete) and Trayvon is on the top of him..... with GZ screaming for help....they are fighting over the gun....GZ gets it first and shoots Trayvon.....at that point you would expect GZ to continue screaming for help even after the struggle is over? I think the screams for help going silent when the shot is fired works both ways. JMO

My guess is the screams would have stopped before he shot the gun. And if GZ was screaming I would think it would be more of a grunting sound while he was trying to pull out his weapon. The screams sound as if there was someone who was facing death and knew it. The minute GZ pulled out his gun the screams should have stopped because he would no longer be fearful. The screams sound like someone trying to get away because they knew they were about to die. GZ would have not had that fear at the moment he pulled his gun. jmo

sleonardelli
04-28-2012, 07:44 PM
I still want to know who the neighbor was that took that picture? I want to know why it was so important to take a picture of George's head and not help the dying kid on the ground? You know, the unarmed one that wasn't moving compared to the man who was up, walking around, and making phone calls?

MOO

I'm wondering if it might have been the off-duty narcotics officer.

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 07:46 PM
Also, O'Mara took a huge risk asking that question if he did not already know the answer. He knew the answer because it was GZ screaming. If Gilbreath would have come back and said "Yes, we have concluded with a high probability that it was not GZ that screamed on the 911 call", it would have been the headline of every newspaper around the world. It was a huge risk.

You realize that this was a bond hearing? If the SA does not have that evidence back yet, they would not be able to confirm or deny any such conclusions. We have no idea what has been handed over to the defense this week? If the FBI results are not in there, then that means the SA hasn't even gotten them back yet.

MOO

Phoenixfla
04-28-2012, 07:47 PM
I would take the word of an expert over that of a father who just lost his son any day! You can't expect a father to be able to comprehend that those screams were his sons. That is for the experts to decide.

IMO, I do believe that both George and Trayvon could have been yelling at different moments, however, those last few seconds of Trayvon's life and listening to those screams and as soon as the shot is fired those screams go silent? That was Trayvon.

MOO

Do you also discount TM's mother stating it was TM? Therefore only to rely on the experts for the state and the defense?

Karmady
04-28-2012, 07:48 PM
And I would argue that the defendant and his defense team might 'err' in whatever direction would tend to keep him from spending the rest of his natural life in prison for following, confronting and shooting an unarmed teenager to death.

IMO

Yeah, but in this case the initial impression of the grieving father and the defense are the same. So George can stand by his initial statement and Mr. Martin cannot

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 07:48 PM
I'm wondering if it might have been the off-duty narcotics officer.

Something still rubs me the wrong way about this "narcotics officer." Something is really off about that.

MOO

katydid23
04-28-2012, 07:48 PM
Except perhaps all his blood after GZ shot him point blank in the chest, then I would venture to guess that his gray hoodie was almost completely red.

But the witness was describing the jacket color at the time of the scuffle. There had been no shots yet.

Phoenixfla
04-28-2012, 07:49 PM
I don't think the State has to deal with anything. Once they play the tape it will be obvious on the parents faces that they are listening to their son screaming in horror. I believe Mr. Martin said the second time he heard the tape it was much clearer than the first time and he agreed it was his son. Since the tapes have been "cleared" up from when we originally heard them it does sound more like a kid than an adult. jmo

Probably all 4 parents.

Just sayin...

LambChop
04-28-2012, 07:49 PM
Also, O'Mara took a huge risk asking that question if he did not already know the answer. He knew the answer because it was GZ screaming. If Gilbreath would have come back and said "Yes, we have concluded with a high probability that it was not GZ that screamed on the 911 call", it would have been the headline of every newspaper around the world. It was a huge risk.

Gilbreath can't say that. He is not an expert and only an expert could testify to that conclusion. MOM was asked him specific questions if he knew. You can't say you know when you really don't know for sure just as we can't say for sure, only that the experts did the test and they said it was not GZ. Gilbreath was not asked that question. MOM did know the answers because the questions were designed to ask Gilbreath in a certain way that he could not answer because he did not conduct the test. He was able to get the tests done by OS in there though. lol jmo

Karmady
04-28-2012, 07:50 PM
Also, O'Mara took a huge risk asking that question if he did not already know the answer. He knew the answer because it was GZ screaming. If Gilbreath would have come back and said "Yes, we have concluded with a high probability that it was not GZ that screamed on the 911 call", it would have been the headline of every newspaper around the world. It was a huge risk.

Excellent, excellent point. You know "the rule"!

mercuriod
04-28-2012, 07:50 PM
Also, O'Mara took a huge risk asking that question if he did not already know the answer. He knew the answer because it was GZ screaming. If Gilbreath would have come back and said "Yes, we have concluded with a high probability that it was not GZ that screamed on the 911 call", it would have been the headline of every newspaper around the world. It was a huge risk.

BBM: LOL, O'Mara was 2 days into this case, he didn't "KNOW" the answer to anything at that point, he has already admitted he didn't even know his own clients financial situation < mod snip >

Just K
04-28-2012, 07:51 PM
GZ's jacket is red with black stripe on the back. Trayvon was wearing a grey hoodie (nothing red).
There was Red on his shoes. They have been described as white with red.

LambChop
04-28-2012, 07:51 PM
Probably all 4 parents.

Just sayin...

I've heard the tape and if I were on the jury I'd be looking at TM's parents because those are the screams of someone facing impending death. And TM was the only one who ended up dead. jmo

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 07:51 PM
Do you also discount TM's mother stating it was TM? Therefore only to rely on the experts for the state and the defense?

I would much rather have the experts testify. I do not think that Trayvon's mother or father were in the right frame of mind to listen and say whether or not those screams were Trayvon. As a parent, would you want to tell yourself that that was your child screaming for help like that? Could you actually listen to that call, as a parent, and tell yourself that that is your child?

I would also not take George's parents words for it and I would especially never take George's word for it. For all I know, he knew Trayvon was screaming for his life and thought that it would be better if he told LE that it was HIM screaming. He did have enough wit about him to make a "phone call."

MOO

mercuriod
04-28-2012, 07:52 PM
I'm wondering if it might have been the off-duty narcotics officer.

No it was no the off-duty narcotics officer that took that supposed picture of GZ, since that is all I can say, jmo, imo and all that jazz

i.b.nora
04-28-2012, 07:52 PM
My speculation only, based on known facts, "How George Raised $200,000 in a Very Short Period of Time":

Monday April 9, 2012
- George Zimmerman launches and unveils "the real george" website and PayPal account to collect funds for both living expenses and possible defense costs.
- George contacts Angela Corey's office twice without the knowledge of his attorneys.
- George contacts Sean Hannity of FoxNews. Hannity acknowledges they spoke but declines to reveal the conversation.

Tuesday April 10, 2012
- Zimmerman's attorneys hold unprecedented press conference to announce that they are dropping him as a client (unless he contacts them). They had not heard from him for two days, and he would not return their calls.

Wednesday April 11, 2012
- George Zimmerman turned himself in to the state police office in Jacksonville, Florida. He.is arrested and charged with 2nd Degree Murder and driven to jail in Seminole County. He arrived at the Polk Correctional Facility in Sanford at 8:24 pm.
- Mark O'Mara is hired by Zimmerman's family.

B I N G O ! ! ! SEAN HANNITY, SCORES EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH GEORGE ZIMMERMAN IN EXCHANGE FOR A DEFENSE FUND DONATION ! ! !

JUST SPECULATING.

Dr.Fessel
04-28-2012, 07:53 PM
Probably all 4 parents.

Just sayin...

So you think Zimmerman's will be over their fear and will be in court during the trial?

mercuriod
04-28-2012, 07:56 PM
Something still rubs me the wrong way about this "narcotics officer." Something is really off about that.

MOO

Well, this "narcotics officer" is a detective, this incident took place on a weekend, he just happened to be the "detective" on call for that weekend. Some weekends the "on call detective" is a homicide detective, some weekends it is a narcotics detective, some weekends it is a major crimes detective, they take rotating weekends to be "on call".

Just K
04-28-2012, 07:56 PM
Do we know for sure which 911 call is John's or a good guess? Wasn't there one where they say the black guy is walking around?

I need to listen to them again.
There is only one call from an adult male.

katydid23
04-28-2012, 07:56 PM
My speculation only, based on known facts, "How George Raised $200,000 in a Very Short Period of Time":

Monday April 9, 2012
- George Zimmerman launches and unveils "the real george" website and PayPal account to collect funds for both living expenses and possible defense costs.
- George contacts Angela Corey's office twice without the knowledge of his attorneys.
- George contacts Sean Hannity of FoxNews. Hannity acknowledges they spoke but declines to reveal the conversation.

Tuesday April 10, 2012
- Zimmerman's attorneys hold unprecedented press conference to announce that they are dropping him as a client (unless he contacts them). They had not heard from him for two days, and he would not return their calls.

Wednesday April 11, 2012
- George Zimmerman turned himself in to the state police office in Jacksonville, Florida. He.is arrested and charged with 2nd Degree Murder and driven to jail in Seminole County. He arrived at the Polk Correctional Facility in Sanford at 8:24 pm.
- Mark O'Mara is hired by Zimmerman's family.

B I N G O ! ! ! SEAN HANNITY, SCORES EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH GEORGE ZIMMERMAN IN EXCHANGE FOR A DEFENSE FUND DONATION ! ! !

JUST SPECULATING.

Has Hannity ever played or aired an interview with Zimmerman?

octobermoon
04-28-2012, 07:57 PM
Also, O'Mara took a huge risk asking that question if he did not already know the answer. He knew the answer because it was GZ screaming. If Gilbreath would have come back and said "Yes, we have concluded with a high probability that it was not GZ that screamed on the 911 call", it would have been the headline of every newspaper around the world. It was a huge risk.

Now I have to double dog dare ya... :D

I will spot you something or other? I will raise you a labrador retriever :what:

GZ had no reason to be in fear. He had the upper hand. He was the one who was in control that fateful night. He had a truck. He pursued a teen in the dark in the rain. The man who was so concerned. The man who called LE for help took it upon himself to judge. And Trayvon died because GZ lacks insight.

IMO JMO MOO

LambChop
04-28-2012, 07:57 PM
No it was no the off-duty narcotics officer that took that supposed picture of GZ, since that is all I can say, jmo, imo and all that jazz

How could an off-duty narcotics officer take a picture at 7:19 when a call by the arresting officers did not go into the Major Crime Unit until TM was pronounced dead??? Why would narcotics be responding before he was even called???? jmo

mercuriod
04-28-2012, 07:58 PM
But the witness was describing the jacket color at the time of the scuffle. There had been no shots yet.

Unless since this is such a traumatic event that it is all jumbling together in his mind, that is why "eyewitnesses" are so unreliable.

katydid23
04-28-2012, 07:59 PM
Excellent, excellent point. You know "the rule"!

NEVER ask a witness a question that you do not already know the answer to.

O'Mara asked some pretty bold questions, imo.

vlpate
04-28-2012, 08:00 PM
Oh hallelujah sister, as one of my first posts about this supposed picture stated, whoever took that pic if it is really GZ has just as depraved mind as GZ does, it is more "important" to them to take a picture of a TEENY, TINY SCRATCH, than to try to help a dying child. SICK, SICK, SICK!

BEM: According to the initial police report, Trayvon was unresponsive when the first officers arrived. While Smith was securing Zimmerman's gun, and I am assuming, handcuffing him, Ayala arrived on the scene and started CPR on Trayvon, joined shortly after by other officers and EMT's. TM was pronounced dead at 7:30 - they worked to try and revive him for at least 12 minutes, according to the police reports.

Initial Police Report (http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Twin-Lakes-Shooting-Initial-Report.pdf)

A side note: I notice Smith refers to Zimmerman's "red jacket" a couple of times on this report. Just an observation.

Karmady
04-28-2012, 08:01 PM
So you think Zimmerman's will be over their fear and will be in court during the trial?

They could still appear telephonically, or with security and bullet proof vests. jmo

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 08:02 PM
NEVER ask a witness a question that you do not already know the answer to.

O'Mara asked some pretty bold questions, imo.

You mean like asking a witness (detective) if their client (the lawyers client)had commited suicide even though that client was sitting right there in the room, alive and well? :floorlaugh:

mercuriod
04-28-2012, 08:03 PM
How could an off-duty narcotics officer take a picture at 7:19 when a call by the arresting officers did not go into the Major Crime Unit until TM was pronounced dead??? Why would narcotics be responding before he was even called???? jmo

That is what I was saying, it was NOT the off-duty narcotics officer that took that supposed picture of GZ's head.

Karmady
04-28-2012, 08:03 PM
NEVER ask a witness a question that you do not already know the answer to.

O'Mara asked some pretty bold questions, imo.

He most certainly did. And I lost the forest for the trees for a moment there. I am now 99.9% convinced that O'Mara knows that the FBI enhancement was inconclusive or contrary. jmo

mercuriod
04-28-2012, 08:05 PM
BEM: According to the initial police report, Trayvon was unresponsive when the first officers arrived. While Smith was securing Zimmerman's gun, and I am assuming, handcuffing him, Ayala arrived on the scene and started CPR on Trayvon, joined shortly after by other officers and EMT's. TM was pronounced dead at 7:30 - they worked to try and revive him for at least 12 minutes, according to the police reports.

Initial Police Report (http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Twin-Lakes-Shooting-Initial-Report.pdf)

A side note: I notice Smith refers to Zimmerman's "red jacket" a couple of times on this report. Just an observation.

< mod snip > I was not talking about any officer, < mod snip >

badme102
04-28-2012, 08:05 PM
What is going to matter is the depositions! All these statements, IMO, are going to be moot because the investigators were leading witnesses to a conclusion that it was GZ screaming. Until we see John's deposition, we have no idea if he ALSO was told by LE that it was GZ screaming and that is why he told the media that it was GZ screaming.

We'll just have to wait and see.

MOO

This is so true. I hope nobody forgets that SPD is being investigated for their SHODDY investigation that night and the days to follow.

Concerned Papa
04-28-2012, 08:06 PM
If John got such a good look you would think he would have said the black guy was on top. Never says a word about what the guy on top was wearing. IMO

IDK about John or what he's saying. Remember, it was dark and raining with no lights in the area.

Watch the video at this link and you can see exactly where John lives and says it all went down right out behind his place.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

Some folks don't seem to want to believe the SPD as to where the body was found:

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/Untitled-1.png

Others don't seem to want to believe the SFD Fire and Rescue dispatcher as to where the body was found:

Trayvon Martin's Body Location 2 Per Sanford Fire and Rescue - YouTube

Wonder if they'll consider believing Zimmerman's own attorney as to where the body was found?

From the [1:19:55] mark:

O’MARA: How do you know he was trying to return to his home?

GILBREATH: Because the location he was found in….is probably….and I don’t have the exact measurements….it’s in the path to the back door of the house where he was staying.

O’MARA: I think the evidence suggested it was 70 yards away, right?

GILBREATH: He came from there; I’m assuming he was going back there.

O’MARA: OK.

http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

According to the NY Times, Trayvon lived here:

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMStaying.png

LambChop
04-28-2012, 08:06 PM
Well, this "narcotics officer" is a detective, this incident took place on a weekend, he just happened to be the "detective" on call for that weekend. Some weekends the "on call detective" is a homicide detective, some weekends it is a narcotics detective, some weekends it is a major crimes detective, they take rotating weekends to be "on call".

Narcotics officers are not aways detectives. Homocide investigates homocides and there was a homocide detective available that night because he interviewed GZ at the station. GZ claimed TM was on drugs and that could be why the narcotics officer was there. The report said they called in the major crime unit just a coinky dink I guess that GZ claimed TM looked as if he was on drugs.

If a narcotics officer sent the picture to ABC they are probably in a lot of trouble, IMO. jmo

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 08:07 PM
I can't wait until an actual hearing in this case about whether or not evidence will be allowed in/out of the trial. All this over a bond hearing? It was a bond hearing! :floorlaugh: This was not a trial or even a hearing about evidence. Still trying to figure out why it was even brought up in the first place as O'Mara hadn't been given any discovery.

MOO

octobermoon
04-28-2012, 08:07 PM
You mean like asking a witness (detective) if their client (the lawyers client)had commited suicide even though that client was sitting right there in the room, alive and well? :floorlaugh:

Yuri rocks! Baez well, not so much. :giggle:

Karmady
04-28-2012, 08:07 PM
Has Hannity ever played or aired an interview with Zimmerman?

I heard his radio show either that day or the very next (posted about it here) and he specifically said that he would not be playing it. I haven't listened since, but I usually listen to drive-time a.m. and haven't heard anything about it.

LambChop
04-28-2012, 08:08 PM
He most certainly did. And I lost the forest for the trees for a moment there. I am now 99.9% convinced that O'Mara knows that the FBI enhancement was inconclusive or contrary. jmo

I don't think the FBI would disclose anything to MOM since they, themselves, are investigating GZ. Good try though. jmo

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 08:10 PM
Frank T. is in more danger than Zimmerman's family, IMO. No one wants to do anything to George's family, or even George, imo. It's all smoke and mirrors. Now don't get me wrong, I believe they have gotten hate mail, but pffttt!

MOO

LambChop
04-28-2012, 08:11 PM
That is what I was saying, it was NOT the off-duty narcotics officer that took that supposed picture of GZ's head.

OOOOhhhhhhh. I thought you were saying he did. Sorry. I need ice cream. lol

Karmady
04-28-2012, 08:13 PM
I can't wait until an actual hearing in this case about whether or not evidence will be allowed in/out of the trial. All this over a bond hearing? It was a bond hearing! :floorlaugh: This was not a trial or even a hearing about evidence. Still trying to figure out why it was even brought up in the first place as O'Mara hadn't been given any discovery.

MOO

It's sworn testimony. It will always be allowed to impeach direct testimony on the same subject.


ggulitigation.com/.../Impeachment-By-Prior-Inconsistent-Sworn-Statement-Handout.pdf -

Nova
04-28-2012, 08:13 PM
I don't understand. If the FBI concluded it was not GZ, and the two experts concluded it was not GZ, who else could it possibly be?

To me it indicates the FBI results were inconclusive or that they found that it was more likely GZ.

It could have been a third, as yet unidentified, party. A horrified witness, say.

No, I don't think it was, but Gilbreath was asked if the testing itself identified the source of the voice. He had to respond "no." That won't prevent the State from arguing in the future that logical deduction leads one to the conclusion it was TM screaming.

And besides, the State had already decided to depend, for the moment anyway, on TM's mother's identification of the screams.

Karmady
04-28-2012, 08:15 PM
I don't think the FBI would disclose anything to MOM since they, themselves, are investigating GZ. Good try though. jmo

Maybe not, but I strongly believe that he knows it somehow. As I said, I am 99.9% certain that he knew the answer to that question before he asked it. It's jmo, I wasn't "trying" anything.

Nova
04-28-2012, 08:15 PM
BBM

So then if GZ is on the bottom (after being punched in the nose, having his head banged off of the concrete) and Trayvon is on the top of him..... with GZ screaming for help....they are fighting over the gun....GZ gets it first and shoots Trayvon.....at that point you would expect GZ to continue screaming for help even after the struggle is over? I think the screams for help going silent when the shot is fired works both ways. JMO

It's possible. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if a person--who was genuinely in fear for his life--continued to scream after firing a shot. How would he know instantly that the shot had hit its mark?

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 08:16 PM
It's sworn testimony. It will always be allowed to impeach direct testimony on the same subject.


ggulitigation.com/.../Impeachment-By-Prior-Inconsistent-Sworn-Statement-Handout.pdf -

So? What did they say that was so bad? They couldn't very well answer questions they didn't know the answers to. IMO, it's none of their business what the SA has until it is ready to be handed over through discovery.

MOO

Phoenixfla
04-28-2012, 08:16 PM
To be truthful I think the minute his story conflicted with the evidence (which was right away according to the homocide detective) GZ convicted himself. My problem with GZ was the minute he stepped out of the truck and did not listen to LE when they told him to return to the truck to meet patrol when they arrived. At that point I believe he decided TM's fate for him. jmo

I understand what your saying. But the way I look at it is that he was just trying to keep an eye on TM until the police arrived. I have not seen anything to convince me that he approached TM. Maybe he did, or maybe TM came back and approached him. Maybe they were both walking toward each other at one point. I don't know. To me that is moot and the relevant question is who threw the first blow.

highflyer
04-28-2012, 08:17 PM
They could still appear telephonically, or with security and bullet proof vests. jmo

Perhaps telephonically while in bullet proof vests surrounded by security.

vlpate
04-28-2012, 08:18 PM
GZ's jacket is red with black stripe on the back. Trayvon was wearing a grey hoodie (nothing red).

Zimmerman's jacket...

mercuriod
04-28-2012, 08:18 PM
OOOOhhhhhhh. I thought you were saying he did. Sorry. I need ice cream. lol

LOL, I don't have ice cream, but can offer white chocolate macadamia nut cookies or triple chocolate chip cookies, all homemade.

Nova
04-28-2012, 08:20 PM
Also, O'Mara took a huge risk asking that question if he did not already know the answer. He knew the answer because it was GZ screaming. If Gilbreath would have come back and said "Yes, we have concluded with a high probability that it was not GZ that screamed on the 911 call", it would have been the headline of every newspaper around the world. It was a huge risk.

If the DA had those test results, they would come out eventually anyway.

All O'Mara risked was their coming out now, with plenty of time for the resulting furor to die down before trial. If the DA has such proof, the defense wants it out sooner rather than later, because it might affect O'Mara's entire approach to his defense of GZ.

Adrienne37
04-28-2012, 08:21 PM
Casey Anthony case shows scope of evidence possible in George Zimmerman case...

Why is discovery in court cases important? Because it gives defense attorneys — and the public — a peek inside the prosecution's case.

The state's most high-profile recent case showed the kind — and quantity — of evidence that's possible when discovery is released.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-sidebar-george-zimmerman-evidence-trayvon-2-20120428,0,2889598.story

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 08:22 PM
Zimmerman's jacket...

He's also wearing a gray t-shirt that could pass as a "white t-shirt" to a witness. With all the wrestling and tugging, I wouldn't be surprised if jackets had risen up.

Do we know what color shirt Trayvon had on underneath his hoodie?

MOO

Adrienne37
04-28-2012, 08:22 PM
When Zimmerman evidence is released, what will it show?
Things to look for: Evidence of injuries to Zimmerman, bruises and cuts on Trayvon, inconsistencies in Zimmerman's five statements...

What evidence does Special Prosecutor Angela Corey have that prompted her to charge George Zimmerman with murdering Trayvon Martin? So far, she has refused to say.

Before long, though, she will be required by law to release the evidence — which fills several boxes. What will it show?

"It'll be like little bits and pieces that will have to be strung together," said Adam Pollack, an Orlando criminal-trial attorney. "Almost a bunch of little dots. Initially, the little dots don't make much sense, but if you step back, you see a bigger picture."

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-george-zimmerman-evidence-trayvon-20120428,0,5841658.story

Nova
04-28-2012, 08:24 PM
Excellent, excellent point. You know "the rule"!

The "rule" only applies to questions that are sure to go unanswered if unasked.

The tests of the screams are going to be made public whether or not O'Mara asks about them.

Frankly, what is odd is the willingness of some to believe Corey is relying on TM's mother's i.d. alone, without any preliminary, confirmatory testing. It's going to be HUGELY destructive to the State's case if testing reveals the screams to come from GZ after the State has made its assertions in the probable cause affidavit.

I think it's much more likely that preliminary testing has shown what we have heard: that the screams do not seem to come from GZ. So the SA is willing to rely on the mother's account while they wait for a positive vocal i.d.

octobermoon
04-28-2012, 08:25 PM
I can't find any SYG man against woman. Man against criminal/s, woman against abuser. Yes, But not a darn one of a man protecting himself from a woman or teenage girl?

LambChop
04-28-2012, 08:27 PM
Maybe not, but I strongly believe that he knows it somehow. As I said, I am 99.9% certain that he knew the answer to that question before he asked it. It's jmo, I wasn't "trying" anything.

I'm sure he checked to see if there was still an ongoing investigation by the FBI and we all know the FBI does not give up those reports easily. It's a pretty safe bet that the SA does not have any information other than OS and TM's Mom. Plus they cannot testify under oath that they know for certain because they don't. Only an expert could testify to that. MOM knows what an investigator can testify to and what he cannot. So some of the questions were pretty safe for MOM to ask because he did know the answer the investigator would have to give him in order to be truthful. jmo

LolaMoon08
04-28-2012, 08:27 PM
When Zimmerman evidence is released, what will it show?
Things to look for: Evidence of injuries to Zimmerman, bruises and cuts on Trayvon, inconsistencies in Zimmerman's five statements...

What evidence does Special Prosecutor Angela Corey have that prompted her to charge George Zimmerman with murdering Trayvon Martin? So far, she has refused to say.

Before long, though, she will be required by law to release the evidence — which fills several boxes. What will it show?

"It'll be like little bits and pieces that will have to be strung together," said Adam Pollack, an Orlando criminal-trial attorney. "Almost a bunch of little dots. Initially, the little dots don't make much sense, but if you step back, you see a bigger picture."

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-george-zimmerman-evidence-trayvon-20120428,0,5841658.story

I can't wait for the "dots" to start coming out! That's when Websleuths is at it's best. When we actually have evidence to piece together. Can't wait to see ConcernedPapa's maps showing GZ's actual claims and how Trayvon ended up where he ended up. Something tells me it's going to be veryyyyy interesting!

MOO

Boytwnmom
04-28-2012, 08:27 PM
this keeps being repeated periodically even though I have never seen such a statement. As I've posted before:

Quote:
Tracy Martin said the calls paint a stark picture of what were his son's final moments.
"He was yelling for help, and no one could help him. He saw his life being taken away from him," Tracy Martin said.

Read more here: http://www.heraldonline.com/2012/03/...#storylink=cpy
Quote:
"My son was crying for help, and he still shot him," said Tracy Martin, Trayvon's father, upon listening to the tapes and hearing a voice believed to be his son terrifyingly muttering "No, no" as a gun-toting Zimmerman apparently approached.
Not to mention what his mother said:

Quote:
On the night of the shooting there were several 911 calls played by neighbors reporting a fight. In one of the calls, there is a voice in the background calling for help.

Sybrina says he believes that voice on the line is her son, telling Anderson, “I believe that's Trayvon Martin, that's my baby's voice. Every mother knows their child, and that's his voice. “

“He was afraid for his life,” says his father, “He saw his death coming. He saw his death coming. The screams got more frantic.”

I can hear the 911 tapes in my head. I can hear him yelling,” says Sybrina. “It's just very difficult as a mother to know that I had to bury my child

Read more: http://www.andersoncooper.com/2012/0...#ixzz1pzxgNo8e

Read more: http://www.andersoncooper.com/2012/0...#ixzz1pzxYhexL
__________________




Imo, that will NEVER happen. The State will also have to contend with Trayvon's father's initial statement that it was NOT Trayvon yelling.

highflyer
04-28-2012, 08:28 PM
LOL, I don't have ice cream, but can offer white chocolate macadamia nut cookies or triple chocolate chip cookies, all homemade.
:skip: Homemade triple chocolate chip cookies. MMMMMMM.

octobermoon
04-28-2012, 08:28 PM
LOL, I don't have ice cream, but can offer white chocolate macadamia nut cookies or triple chocolate chip cookies, all homemade.

YUM :) you are now officially the baker of the thread. :)

LambChop
04-28-2012, 08:31 PM
LOL, I don't have ice cream, but can offer white chocolate macadamia nut cookies or triple chocolate chip cookies, all homemade.

Thanks but I found a Klondike Bar and it's gone already. lol

katydid23
04-28-2012, 08:31 PM
When Zimmerman evidence is released, what will it show?
Things to look for: Evidence of injuries to Zimmerman, bruises and cuts on Trayvon, inconsistencies in Zimmerman's five statements...

What evidence does Special Prosecutor Angela Corey have that prompted her to charge George Zimmerman with murdering Trayvon Martin? So far, she has refused to say.

Before long, though, she will be required by law to release the evidence — which fills several boxes. What will it show?

"It'll be like little bits and pieces that will have to be strung together," said Adam Pollack, an Orlando criminal-trial attorney. "Almost a bunch of little dots. Initially, the little dots don't make much sense, but if you step back, you see a bigger picture."

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-george-zimmerman-evidence-trayvon-20120428,0,5841658.story


Ruh-Roh....So they are expecting a Florida jury, chosen from a panel of people who do not read or listen to the news, to actually connect the dots on some circumstantial evidence...hmmmmmmm... That could be a problem.