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JBean
04-29-2012, 07:30 PM
Let's go ahead and start putting a timeline together in one thread.
We are not going to see eye to eye on events- so let's keep that in mind and work through each time line item best we can.
Please stick to MSM and police reports as it relates to the timeline.

csziggy
04-29-2012, 09:33 PM
The timeline I put together from the transcript of GZ's call from MSM , the recording of GZ's call from the City of Sanford sit with times I noted from listening to it, the information on Trayvon Martin's phone logs from http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/call+log.pdf, other information from police reports and Sanford Police dispatch logs from the City of Sanford site, and from SPD security footage at the police station. Some of the sources are no longer on the internet at the location I had for them so I don't have links.

ETA - this source has a lot of the resources I used to create this timeline: http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/3/23/trayvon_martin_911_c.html

If this needs to be removed due to the lack of current links, I will understand.

Times NOT in 24 hour format are minutes:seconds:?? from the beginning of GZ's call as I measured with my audio software. ALL times in that format noted at the end of the immediately preceding comments on the recording. Notes in green are sounds I heard and thought worth mentioning.

18:54:00 Trayvon receives call from girlfriend - 18 minutes length
19:04:00 Trayvon receives call from girlfriend - 1 minute length
19:09:34 Call connected
Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. …
Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near) Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
00:25:00
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.
00:30:00
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's here now, he was just staring…
00:44:62
19:11:12 1017 area for bm late teens lsw dark gray hoodie jeans or sweatpants walking around area//compl concerned ref recent s21s
Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area…
Zimmerman: …looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: OK…
19:11:17 DIS (dispatch?)
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
00:48:42
Dispatcher: OK—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
00:59:52
Dispatcher: OK.
01:01:24 (Car door?)
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.
01:09:40
Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?
Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens.
Dispatcher: Late teens ok.
01:16:08 (car door?)
Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.
01:26:62
Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything ok
Zimmerman: How long until you get an officer over here?
01:29:57
Dispatcher: Yeah we've got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else.
Zimmerman: Okay. These *******s they always get away.
01:39:27
(Series of rhythmic odd noises - windshield wipers?)
When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse.
01:54:09
Dispatcher: So it's on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?
Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left…uh you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left.
02:06:65 **** he's running.
Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?
02:09:47 (Car door alarm?)
Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood. (car door slam)
02:14:18
Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
Zimmerman: The back entrance…****ing (unintelligible)
02:22:36
19:11:59 subj now running towards back entrance of complex
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah (wind noises)
02:25:20
19:12:00 Trayvon receives call from girlfriend - 4 minutes length
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Ok
Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name?
Zimmerman: George…He ran. (wind noises continue)
02:38:14
(Wind noises stop some time in here)
Dispatcher: Alright George what's your last name?
02:41:70 (odd clicking noise)
Zimmerman: Zimmerman
Dispatcher: And George what's the phone number you're calling from?
Zimmerman: (redacted)
Dispatcher: Alright George we do have them on the way, do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
Zimmerman: Alright, where you going to meet with them at?
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate,
03:04:07 (three odd clicking noises under the word gate)
tell them to go straight past the club house,
03:07:40 (three odd clicking noises, louder)
and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, they’ll see my truck... (unintelligible)
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
Dispatcher: Okay do you live in the area?
Zimmerman: Yeah, I...(unintelligible)
Dispatcher: What’s your apartment number?
Zimmerman: It’s a home it’s 1950, oh crap I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t know where this kid is.
Dispatcher: Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?
19:13:12
Zimmerman: Yeah that’s fine.
Dispatcher: Alright George, I’ll let them know to meet you around there okay?
Zimmerman: Actually could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?
Dispatcher: Okay, yeah that’s no problem.
Zimmerman: Should I give you my number or you got it?
Dispatcher: Yeah I got it (redacted)
Zimmerman: Yeah you got it.
Dispatcher: Okay no problem, I’ll let them know to call you when you’re in the area.
Zimmerman: Thanks.
Dispatcher: You’re welcome.
04:11:00 (recording of call ends)
19:13:41 Compl new req leo 1045 before 1056
19:16:00 Time approximate - call with girlfriend ends after she hears interchange with Trayvon and unknown follower
19:16:11 Call 3 begins
19:16:55:47 GUNSHOT
19:17:00 Officer Ricardo Ayalla dispatched/arrived
19:17:11 Officer Timothy Smith arrived. As he arrived notified by dispatch of shots fired.
19:19 Officer Timothy Smith canvasses scene
19:30:00 Trayvon Martin declared dead at scene by EMS
George Zimmerman treated by EMTs in back of police car.
~19:37 Police car carrying George Zimmerman leaves The Retreat At Twin Lakes (estimated from approximate travel time to SPD.)
19:52:00 George Zimmerman arrived at Sanford Police Department.

Nova
04-29-2012, 10:41 PM
I'm not sure how these threads work. Am I allowed to ask how the following is possible?

18:54:00 Trayvon receives call from girlfriend - 18 minutes length
19:04:00 Trayvon receives call from girlfriend - 1 minute length

If the 6:54 pm call lasted 18 minutes, how did the g.f. call Trayvon only 10 minutes after the start of the first call. Did she use two phones?

I'm just curious and I don't mean to take anything away from csziggy's very valuable and useful work.

beach
04-29-2012, 11:18 PM
I'm not sure how these threads work. Am I allowed to ask how the following is possible?



Sure. We can work together. We'll begin by using the factual info we already have access to. It will change some as other docs are released and we get more info. Eventually we'll end up with a pretty concise master timeline.


Maybe it was a typo because it makes no sense to me either?

csziggy
04-30-2012, 12:46 AM
I'm not sure how these threads work. Am I allowed to ask how the following is possible?



If the 6:54 pm call lasted 18 minutes, how did the g.f. call Trayvon only 10 minutes after the start of the first call. Did she use two phones?

I'm just curious and I don't mean to take anything away from csziggy's very valuable and useful work.
The cell phone records are full of inconsistencies like this:
Trayvon’s call log: From http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/call+log.pdf
Since those logs are mixed up and not in order, I put them in order:
02/26/2012
time place type minutes
11:13 Hollywood text
11:15 North Dade text
11:18 North Dade text
01:30 Miami text
02:20 Incoming 3
02:38 Incoming 103
02:45 Incoming 2
03:02 Incoming 2
03:04 Incoming 3
04:08 North Dade text
04:28 North Dade Incoming 41
05:09 North Dade Incoming 81
06:30 North Dade Incoming 13
06:41 Incoming 4
06:45 North Dade Incoming 5
06:46 North Dade Incoming 2
06:49 Incoming 4
06:53 North Dade Incoming 1
06:54 North Dade Incoming 1
06:54 Incoming 18
07:04 Incoming 1
07:12 Incoming 4

03/02/2012
12:45 Emergency 1
12:45 Incoming 1
12:47 Incoming 1

The calls without place designations didn't have any in the logs. There are a lot of calls that overlap. I'm not sure what that means or how those calls work. Did he get a call waiting signal - do cell phones even do that? - put one call on hold and then go back to the first one?

The only cell phone I've ever had is a Tracfone and I barely use it at all. It doesn't have bills since it's prepaid. I've never even checked to see if they have call logs online.

The call logs are not really that. I believe there are more than one search in that "log" in the link. Someone with more knowledge about these things needs to look at the call log searches directly from the link above.

IMO, JMO, etc.

Montjoy
04-30-2012, 01:50 PM
Has either 7-11 or the SPD released information on the time at which TM left the 7-11? I'd imagine that they could determine it accurately from the video or cashier's tape. I think it might help sort out implications about whether TM was 'loitering' or not on his way home.

csziggy
04-30-2012, 09:30 PM
Has either 7-11 or the SPD released information on the time at which TM left the 7-11? I'd imagine that they could determine it accurately from the video or cashier's tape. I think it might help sort out implications about whether TM was 'loitering' or not on his way home.

The 7-Eleven corporation said they have video of TM purchasing the Skittles and tea between 6 and 6:30. I'll see if I can find the link for that.

ETA:
Georgia Students Gather In Sanford For Trayvon Martin
Students On Spring Break Bring Prayers, Well-Wishes

POSTED: 12:54 pm EDT April 5, 2012
UPDATED: 5:33 pm EDT April 5, 2012

<SNIP>
A corporate spokeswoman for 7-Eleven said on Thursday they have a video secured at corporate headquarters showing Martin the night he was killed.

An executive with 7-Eleven viewed the tape and can confirm: "he observed an African American male in a hoodie purchase Skittles and an iced tea between 6 and 6:30 that evening."

Read more: http://www.wesh.com/trayvon-martin-extended-coverage/30841174/detail.html#ixzz1tZshJIcO


IMO, JMO, etc.

JBean
04-30-2012, 09:31 PM
Thank you for all your hard work,csziggy!

csziggy
04-30-2012, 09:40 PM
Thank you for all your hard work,csziggy!

Thanks - it's keeping my mind off what will be happening two weeks from tomorrow. Plus, I just have one of those minds that likes putting things in order. :confused:

Desdemona
05-01-2012, 01:36 PM
Excellent work, and very helpful.


*** Do we know what time Tracy & Brandy left for dinner?

*** What time TM left the townhome to walk to 7-11?
(i.e. how long did it take TM to walk there)

*** Are there phone calls confirmed during the walk to 7-11?

*** Times for Sunset? Dark?

*** Other than the apparently overlapping GF phone calls, are there any other details between:


6:00<>6:30 when TM made the purchase @ 7-11, and

7:09, when GZ called to report the SP on foot in the neighborhood (near clubhouse IIRC)?



Great work, and TIA

grammieto5
05-01-2012, 02:00 PM
Has either 7-11 or the SPD released information on the time at which TM left the 7-11? I'd imagine that they could determine it accurately from the video or cashier's tape. I think it might help sort out implications about whether TM was 'loitering' or not on his way home.

I've always believed Trayvon was looking around because he was lost. I wonder how many times he had visited there. I look forward to seeing what the 7-11 video shows.

Donjeta
05-01-2012, 02:06 PM
It's dark in February after 7 pm according to this graph
http://www.gaisma.com/en/location/sanford-florida.html

Phoenixfla
05-04-2012, 07:01 PM
If someone leaves a voicemail, does it show yo as minutes used? Could any of the incoming short calls be voicemails left?

Just K
05-05-2012, 10:59 AM
I'm not sure how these threads work. Am I allowed to ask how the following is possible?



If the 6:54 pm call lasted 18 minutes, how did the g.f. call Trayvon only 10 minutes after the start of the first call. Did she use two phones?

I'm just curious and I don't mean to take anything away from csziggy's very valuable and useful work.
RE: Timeline
The Defense is on an all out media blitz to sway public open. All we need to do to see that this is true is to read the "media/no discussion" thread from start until today.

IMO:
We still need a place for general discussion. The current available threads are either at a standstill or are overwhelmingly representative of the Defense's side. Which actually doesn't represent the majority view of the general public.

Just K
05-05-2012, 11:01 AM
If someone leaves a voicemail, does it show yo as minutes used? Could any of the incoming short calls be voicemails left?

Incoming VM messages do not show on TMobile logs. Checking VM does show up.

HTH

ladonna
05-05-2012, 11:06 AM
Is it okay to ask a question here?

What about the two minutes that alledgley are missing from GZ's call?

imamaze
05-05-2012, 11:10 AM
RE: Timeline
The Defense is on an all out media blitz to sway public open. All we need to do to see that this is true is to read the "media/no discussion" thread from start until today.

IMO:
We still need a place for general discussion. The current available threads are either at a standstill or are overwhelming representative of the Defense's side. Which actually doesn't represent the majority view of the general public.

You are more than welcome to start new threads Just K. Right now we are moderating the new threads but new topics are more than welcome!!!

Ima

AJ Noiter
05-05-2012, 11:44 AM
Donjeta, don't mean to step on your toes, I just don't like the terms "dusk" and "dawn" because it's not very specific. It tends to give impressions that may or may not be true.

Info for 26 February 2012 in Miami, FL. Could not get data for Sanford, FL specifically though this should be close enough. These are the start and ending times, respectively.

Twilight, Astronomical: 5:31
Twilight, Nautical: 5:32 - 5:58
Twilight, Civil: 5:59 - 6:25
Sunrise: 6:26 - 6:48
Solar noon: 12:34
Sunset: 18:20
Twilight, Civil: 18:21 - 18:43
Twilight, Nautical: 18:43 - 19:10
Twilight, Astronomical: 19:10 - 19:37
Moonrise: 9:16
Moonset: 22:40
Day length: 11h 32m

Terms:
Astronomical Twilight - Sun is below 18° of the horizon, sky is "fully dark."
Nautical Twilight - Sun is between 12° and 18° of the horizon, bright stars are visible, also known as "first light" and "nightfall."
Civil Twilight - Sun is between 0° and 6° below the horizon. Direct sunlight is clearly visible in the atmosphere.


Sources:
sunrisesunset.com - Times
Wikipedia.com - Terms

Just K
05-05-2012, 11:47 AM
You are more than welcome to start new threads Just K. Right now we are moderating the new threads but new topics are more than welcome!!!

Ima

Thanks, IMA...I did send one in yesterday but, as of yet and since the general thread closed, no new threads have been opened.

Concerned Papa
05-05-2012, 04:21 PM
This critical portion of the timeline for this case only spanned seven minutes and seven seconds from the beginning of the 911 call at 7:09:34 pm up to and including the gunshot at 7:16:41 pm. LE's first responder was on the scene THIRTY SECONDS later at 7:17:11 pm.

Unique to any case I've ever followed, through the 911 call, we've all HEARD this situation’s beginning, the first 4 minutes and 7 seconds of it's duration, AND it's ending when the gunshot was fired that killed Trayvon. There's only three minutes we didn't hear!


We KNOW that GZ got out of his vehicle and started following TM at [2:08] into the call, because we all heard it.



We KNOW that the dispatcher told GZ eighteen seconds later, at [2:26] into the call, "We don't need you to do that", because we all heard it.



We also know that the 911 call ended after a duration of [4:07].

George Zimmerman’s statements to LE regarding his path of travel and actions have been verified by his father, his attorney, and the City Manager of Sanford, FL as essentially being that:

He got out of his vehicle......followed TM for 18 seconds until the dispatcher told him not to do that.....then continued 140 feet to the next street over for an address.....then turned and was walking back to his vehicle for 97 feet and was attacked by TM where the sidewalks intersect.

In the following analysis of time/distance, I’m going to use a well-documented walk rate of 3 mph for an average adult male, with Google Earth measurements, to calculate a timeline for the specific storyline provided by Robert Zimmerman Sr. in his Sean Hannity interview.

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/04/05/exclusive-george-zimmermans-father-defends-son-trayvon-martin-shooting?page=2#ixzz1svJVUFyf

Beginning when George got out of his vehicle at [2:08].

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMBond1.png

ZIMMERMAN: From where George's vehicle was, there's a sidewalk that goes to the next street over. Off of that sidewalk there's another sidewalk that goes between two rows of townhomes……George was walking down the main sidewalk to see if he could see where Trayvon was going. [2:08]

ZIMMERMAN: When the dispatcher said we know longer need you to do that, and George acknowledged OK. He no longer knew where Trayvon was. [2:26]

3 mph =4.4 feet/second x 18 seconds (2:26 – 2:08) = 79.2 feet traveled

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMBond2-1.png

He continued walking down the sidewalk directly in front of him to the next street to get an address. He got an address.

140 feet measured distance divided by 4.4 feet/second = 32 seconds. [2:26] + [0:32] = [2:58]

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMBond3.png

He was walking back to his vehicle.

Trayvon came from his left side…from that area where the sidewalks meet…and started beating him.

97 feet measured distance divided by 4.4 feet/second = 22 seconds. [2:58] + [0.22] = [3.20]

Now compare this timeline analysis to GEORGE ZIMMERMAN’S own statement as told to the SPD and VERIFIED by the City Manager of Sanford, FL.

From the “leaked” article of the Orlando Sentinel:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

This is what the Sentinel has learned about Zimmerman's account to investigators:

Zimmerman got out of his SUV to follow Trayvon on foot. When a dispatch employee asked Zimmerman if he was following the 17-year-old, Zimmerman said yes. The dispatcher told Zimmerman he did not need to do that. [2:26]

There is about a one-minute gap during which police say they're not sure what happened.

Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear…….

See the article’s verification of accuracy by the City Manager in the attachment below.

With a KNOWN beginning time of [2:26] PLUS an unknown gap of one minute [1.00], the time being alleged by George Zimmerman that this “beating” began is [3:26] into the 911 call. This is only SIX SECONDS difference with our timeline analysis based on Robert Sr’s detailed statement.

This is the CORE of George Zimmerman’s SYG defense, and we know it CANNOT be true because at [3:20] OR [3:26] George was still chatting away with the 911 dispatcher and continued to do so until [4:07]!

Don’t you think we would have heard it?

csziggy
05-06-2012, 02:06 AM
While writing a reply in the thread about the "missing" two minutes, I realized I had enough information to assign exact military times to the times I took from listening to the recording of GZ's call to SPD on February 26, 2012.

All the sources are the same as in message #2 in this thread. The only change is that I have shifted some of the dispatcher's entries in the call log and added a few that I had in inserted previously.

The timeline I put together from the transcript of GZ's call from MSM , the recording of GZ's call from the City of Sanford sit with times I noted from listening to it, the information on Trayvon Martin's phone logs from http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/call+log.pdf, other information from police reports and Sanford Police dispatch logs from the City of Sanford site, and from SPD security footage at the police station. Some of the sources are no longer on the internet at the location I had for them so I don't have links.

This source has a lot of the resources I used to create this timeline: http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news...tin_911_c.html

Times NOT in 24 hour format are minutes:seconds:?? from the beginning of GZ's call as I measured with my audio software. ALL times in that format noted at the end of the immediately preceding comments on the recording. Notes in green are sounds I heard and thought worth mentioning.


18:54:00 Trayvon receives call from girlfriend
19:04:00 Trayvon receives call from girlfriend
19:09:34 Call connected
Dispatcher: Sanford Police Department. …
Zimmerman: Hey we've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy, uh, [near) Retreat View Circle, um, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
19:09:59 00:25:00
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy is he white, black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.
19:10:04 00:30:00
Dispatcher: Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman: Yeah. A dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, and either jeans or sweatpants and white tennis shoes. He's here now, he was just staring…
19:10:18 00:44:62
19:11:12 1017 area for bm late teens lsw dark gray hoodie jeans or sweatpants walking around area//compl concerned ref recent s21s
Dispatcher: OK, he's just walking around the area…
Zimmerman: …looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: OK…
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
19:10:22 00:48:42
Dispatcher: OK—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
19:10:33 00:59:52
Dispatcher: OK.
19:10:35 01:01:24 [Car door?)
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.
19:10:43 01:09:40
Dispatcher: How old would you say he looks?
Zimmerman: He's got button on his shirt, late teens.
Dispatcher: Late teens ok.
19:10:50 01:16:08 (car door?)
Zimmerman: Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.
19:11:00 01:26:62
Dispatcher: Just let me know if he does anything ok
Zimmerman: How long until you get an officer over here?
19:11:03 01:29:57
Dispatcher: Yeah we've got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else.
Zimmerman: Okay. These *******s they always get away.
19:11:13 01:39:27
(Series of rhythmic odd noises - windshield wipers?)
When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse.
19:11:17 DIS [dispatch?) S1312 (Officer Ayala)
19:11:28 01:54:09
Dispatcher: So it's on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?
Zimmerman: No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left…uh you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left.
19:11:40 02:06:65 **** he's running.
Dispatcher: He's running? Which way is he running?
19:11:43 02:09:47 (Car door alarm?)
Zimmerman: Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood. (car door slam)
19:11:48 02:14:18
Dispatcher: Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
Zimmerman: The back entrance…****ing (unintelligible)
19:11:56 02:22:36
19:11:59 subj now running towards back entrance of complex
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah (wind noises)
19:11:59 02:25:20
19:12:00 Trayvon receives call from girlfriend
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Ok
Dispatcher: Alright sir what is your name?
Zimmerman: George…He ran. (wind noises continue)
19:12:12 02:38:14
(Wind noises stop some time in here)
Dispatcher: Alright George what's your last name?
19:12:15 02:41:70 (odd clicking noise - gun?)
Zimmerman: Zimmerman
Dispatcher: And George what's the phone number you're calling from?
Zimmerman: (redacted by Mother Jones)
Dispatcher: Alright George we do have them on the way, do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
Zimmerman: Alright, where you going to meet with them at?
Zimmerman: If they come in through the gate,
19:12:38 03:04:07 (three odd clicking noises under the word gate)
tell them to go straight past the club house,
19:12:41 03:07:40 (three odd clicking noises, louder)
and uh, straight past the club house and make a left, and then they go past the mailboxes, they’ll see my truck... (unintelligible)
Dispatcher: What address are you parked in front of?
Zimmerman: I don’t know, it’s a cut through so I don’t know the address.
Dispatcher: Okay do you live in the area?
Zimmerman: Yeah, I...(unintelligible)
Dispatcher: What’s your apartment number?
Zimmerman: It’s a home it’s 1950, oh crap I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t know where this kid is.
Dispatcher: Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then?
19:13:12 Compl will 1056 at mailboxes of complex
Zimmerman: Yeah that’s fine.
Dispatcher: Alright George, I’ll let them know to meet you around there okay?
19:13:27 DIS S2711 (Officer Timothy Smith)
Zimmerman: Actually could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?
Dispatcher: Okay, yeah that’s no problem.
Zimmerman: Should I give you my number or you got it?
Dispatcher: Yeah I got it (redacted)
Zimmerman: Yeah you got it.
Dispatcher: Okay no problem, I’ll let them know to call you when you’re in the area.
Zimmerman: Thanks.
Dispatcher: You’re welcome.
19:13:41 Compl new req leo 1045 before 1056
19:13:45 04:11:00 (recording of call ends)
19:16:00 Time approximate - call with girlfriend ends after she hears interchange with Trayvon and unknown follower
19:16:00 Call 3 begins
19:16:44:47 GUNSHOT
19:17:36 S2711 PEU - Officer Timothy Smith arrived. As he arrived notified by dispatch of shots fired.
19:19:52 S1312 PEU Officer Ricardo Ayalla dispatched/arrived
19:19 Officer Timothy Smith canvasses scene
19:30:00 Trayvon Martin declared dead at scene by EMS
George Zimmerman treated by EMTs in back of police car.
~19:37 Police car carrying George Zimmerman leaves The Retreat At Twin Lakes
19:52:00 George Zimmerman arrived at Sanford Police Department.

Concerned Papa
05-06-2012, 12:26 PM
Papa could you put this in the Timeline Thread so we don't lose it. I don't think it could go in the media thread but either one if it is allowed. Thanks

From the Bond Hearing:

From the Bond Hearing recording at the [1:19:55] mark:

O’MARA: How do you know he was trying to return to his home?

GILBREATH: Because the location he was found in….is probably….and I don’t have the exact measurements….it’s in the path to the back door of the house where he was staying.

O’MARA: I think the evidence suggested it was 70 yards away, right?

GILBREATH: He came from there; I’m assuming he was going back there.

O’MARA: OK.

http://www.wral.com/news/video/11004815/#/vid11004815

From RZ Sr.'s Sean Hannity interview:

ZIMMERMAN: He was walking back to his vehicle.

Trayvon came from his left side…from that area where the sidewalks meet…and started beating him.

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/04/05/exclusive-george-zimmermans-father-defends-son-trayvon-martin-shooting?page=2#ixzz1svJVUFyf

csziggy
05-06-2012, 02:39 PM
After looking back over the timeline, figuring the times of the various comments in GZ's call to SPD, and thinking about it overnight, I did some measuring of the distances in the subdivision.

Here is the Retreat At Twin Lakes with TM's most direct path home:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1542&pictureid=13577

If TM came in through the unfenced place at the northwest corner of the subdivision, the distance he would have traveled from coming out on the sidewalk inside the subdivision to BG's home is approximately 1310 feet. If TM walked that entire distance it would have taken him about 6.5 minutes (at 3.5 feet per second).

The measurements I am working from are:

From the corner at the NW corner of Retreat View Circle to the corner at the entrance of the subdivision = 334 feet (walking time = 95 seconds)
Straight from that corner to the mailboxes = 105 feet (walking time = 30 seconds)
From the mailboxes to the "T" of the sidewalks = 430 feet (walking time = 123 seconds; running time = 54 seconds)
From the "T" to BG's home = 438 feet (walking time = 125 seconds)
From the "T" to the location of the last fight (TM's estimated body location) = 122 feet (walking speed = 35 seconds; running speed = 15 seconds)
From BG's home to the location of the last fight (TM's estimated body location) = 290 feet (walking time 83 seconds; running time = 36 seconds).

(All measurements were obtained from Google Earth using their measurement tool and are rounded off. Times are based on 3.5 feet per second walking speed and 8 feet per second running speed. All times are also rounded off.)

I think GZ saw TM coming between the townhouses at the NW corner of the subdivision as GZ was driving around Retreat View Circle from his house going towards the clubhouse and the front entrance. I think GZ stopped at the intersection of Retreat View and Twin Trees and watched TM walk up the street, calling SPD as he did so.

GZ's call to SPD connected at 19:09:34. About a minute later, at 19:10:33 (by my estimate) GZ tells the dispatcher, "Yeah, now he's coming towards me." The timing would fit with GZ seeing TM, deciding to call SPD, and doing so - about 30 seconds for GZ to go through the entire process. From then until 19:10:50 GZ tells the SPD dispatcher, "He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male." "He's got button on his shirt, late teens." "Somethings wrong with him. Yup, he's coming to check me out, he's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is."

TM meanwhile has seen GZ's vehicle pass him, then stop at the intersection. He would have walked to the corner, expecting the SUV to pull on out, but it sat there, not moving with the driver staring at him. When I was a pedestrian, often I would circle behind a car stopped at a stop sign so they didn't have to wait for me to pass in front of them. I could see TM doing this, hoping this strange man would drive on off. That could be the 'circling' mentioned in one of GZ's stories. Nothing nefarious, just a cautionary move on TM's part.

If TM walked straight from the corner to the mailboxes, it would take about 30 seconds. Add a little bit of time for him to 'circle' GZ's SUV and that only gives him a few seconds to stop under the area next to the mailboxes and to raise his hood before GZ says, "He's running" at 19:11:40. The dispatcher confirms with GZ that the subject is running and asks which way. The exchange between the dispatcher and GZ that confirms that GZ thought TM was running towards the back entrance lasts until the dispatcher enters in the log at 19:11:59 "subj now running towards back entrance of complex".

TM's phone logs show that the last call from his girlfriend connected at approximately 19:12. I suspect the previous call from her disconnected when TM began to run - maybe TM disconnected and she called back.

The distance from the mailboxes to the "T" intersection of the sidewalks is about 430 feet. If TM ran the entire way, it would take him about 54 seconds. Walking, it would take about 123 seconds, just over one minute difference in times. If TM began running at 19:11:40 and ran the entire way to the "T" he would have gotten there at about 19:12:34. I suspect that TM stopped running before he got all the way to the "T" to answer the call from his girlfriend and to see if the strange man was still following.

From the "T" to the back door of BG's home is about 438 feet and would take a little over two minutes to walk. If TM walked the entire way and planned to go in the back door, he would have been home by 19:15. But he was talking to his girl, watching for the strange man, going slow, I suspect.

What if TM HAD made it home? From the back door of BG's home to the place where we have estimated TM's body to be is 210 to 300 feet (70 yards by several people's estimates, 290 feet by my measurements with Google Earth). At a running speed of 8 feet per second, it would take 26 to 36 seconds to travel that distance.

At the bond hearing Detective Gilbreath mentioned a witness who saw two figures running away from the direction of where TM was staying. If TM was almost home and GZ confronted him at approximately 19:16 when the girlfriend's call disconnected, that chase could end at the location where the body was a few seconds before the gunshot at 19:16:55. Those screams on the 911 call became more desperate in the last ten or twenty seconds - because GZ had stopped TM and TM knew he was about to die?

This is just one theory, but the times seem to fit.

JMO, IMO, etc.

csziggy
05-06-2012, 02:44 PM
While writing a reply in the thread about the "missing" two minutes, I realized I had enough information to assign exact military times to the times I took from listening to the recording of GZ's call to SPD on February 26, 2012.

All the sources are the same as in message #2 in this thread. The only change is that I have shifted some of the dispatcher's entries in the call log and added a few that I had in inserted previously.

CORRECTION TO TIMES of 911 call with screams and gunshot:
19:16:11 Call 3 begins (call listed as Call #2 on Channel 13 web site)
19:16:55:47 GUNSHOT

Elley Mae
05-06-2012, 03:05 PM
From the Bond Hearing:



From RZ Sr.'s Sean Hannity interview:

Do we have BG's actual address? I ask because I have seen other pictures that show BG's townhouse at the last building down, second from the end. curious

csziggy
05-06-2012, 03:15 PM
Do we have BG's actual address? I ask because I have seen other pictures that show BG's townhouse at the last building down, second from the end. curious

We don't have BG's address, but the second from the end townhouse is owned by the Federal National Mortgage Association and I don't think they lease out homes. The next townhouse is privately owned but the owner doesn't get a homestead exemption, so I suspect that they lease that unit. Based on information obtained from the Seminole County Property Appraiser's web site: http://scpafl.org/

I just realized on my diagram posted above, I identified the second from the end as BG's home and used it for all my measurements! :pullhair::yow:

Concerned Papa
05-06-2012, 03:17 PM
Do we have BG's actual address? I ask because I have seen other pictures that show BG's townhouse at the last building down, second from the end. curious

Elley that is the last building down, but the unit could be the second from the end, IDK. It's hard to tell from that image. Either way, the distance is still considerable.

I don't have an address, but the image came from this NY Times article:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/02/us/the-events-leading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin.html

Elley Mae
05-06-2012, 03:32 PM
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation

In this article the video to the left is the one that Tracy and Brandy walk up to the reporter that is behind "john's" as he starts off with the report look down the sidewalk in between the buildings and you will see who I believe to be Tracy and Brandy on their way to him. it really doesn't prove where she lives but they are walking from the far end.

diesel
05-06-2012, 06:16 PM
Elley that is the last building down, but the unit could be the second from the end, IDK. It's hard to tell from that image. Either way, the distance is still considerable.

I don't have an address, but the image came from this NY Times article:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/02/us/the-events-leading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin.html


Hello Papa. Hope all is well with you. I have been reading and looking at your maps and times etc. At this point, could you advise where you believe Trayvon was when GZ first spotted him? I assume Trayvon entered the development from the bottom entrance (looking at the NY Times image) and would have been making his way to the left and GZ came around the corner from his place. What side of the road would he have parked his vehicle on?

Thanks.

Concerned Papa
05-06-2012, 06:31 PM
Hello Papa. Hope all is well with you. I have been reading and looking at your maps and times etc. At this point, could you advise where you believe Trayvon was when GZ first spotted him? I assume Trayvon entered the development from the bottom entrance (looking at the NY Times image) and would have been making his way to the left and GZ came around the corner from his place. What side of the road would he have parked his vehicle on?

Thanks.

Welcome to WebSleuths. Give me a few minutes and I'll be back with you. Don't like to hand out answers or opinions w/o backup.

Concerned Papa
05-06-2012, 07:15 PM
Hello Papa. Hope all is well with you. I have been reading and looking at your maps and times etc. At this point, could you advise where you believe Trayvon was when GZ first spotted him? I assume Trayvon entered the development from the bottom entrance (looking at the NY Times image) and would have been making his way to the left and GZ came around the corner from his place. What side of the road would he have parked his vehicle on?

Thanks.

Based on the way I read the 911 transcript, TM seems to have been at or near the Clubhouse during the first part of the call.

911 dispatcher: OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?

Zimmerman: That’s the clubhouse.

911 dispatcher: He’s near the clubhouse now?

Zimmerman: Yeah, now he’s coming toward me.

As for where George was first parked, I found a video last night I'd not seen before where Francis Taaffe did a walk through with NBC. At the 9 second mark he pointed to where he says GZ was parked.

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMTaaffeBody1.png

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/21/10791755-neighbor-comes-to-defense-of-trayvon-martins-shooter?lite

I have overlayed the above image on the attached map below as to where Taaffe seems to be standing and pointing towards where I would think was GZ's first position as TM left the Clubhouse. I tend to think that GZ followed along, in his vehicle, as Trayvon walked down the street until he started running.

I have also shown the position reflected in GZ's statements to the dispatcher as to where his vehicle was parked at the "cut through" when he got out at [2:08] to follow.

diesel
05-06-2012, 08:28 PM
Thank you, Papa. I have been studying your pictures and having serious problems with perspective. They seem turned around to me and it confuses me. Couldn't watch the video probably because of iPad issues. Tried to view csziggy's picture of Trayvon's path but that won't load either. So, I am not sure where it is thought Trayvon entered on his way back from the store. Did want to thank you though for taking the time to help.

csziggy
05-06-2012, 09:05 PM
Thank you, Papa. I have been studying your pictures and having serious problems with perspective. They seem turned around to me and it confuses me. Couldn't watch the video probably because of iPad issues. Tried to view csziggy's picture of Trayvon's path but that won't load either. So, I am not sure where it is thought Trayvon entered on his way back from the store. Did want to thank you though for taking the time to help.

Diesel,
I'm sorry you're having problems with my picture. If you have a map application you can use, go to 1111 Retreat View Circle, Sanford FL. That is the location of the clubhouse for the subdivision. Retreat View Circle goes around the entire perimeter of the subdivision, so size the map to show the entire place.

The clubhouse is inside the front entrance to the Retreat at Twin Lakes subdivision. At the northwest corner (upper left on most maps) the front wall to the subdivision stops and there are a few plants as the only divider. I think that may be where Trayvon re-entered on his way home. It cuts 50 or so feet off the distance and it gets a walker off the main road and onto the quieter private road. Trayvon could have come in the main entrance, also, but that would not have given GZ as much time to observe him as it seems from GZ's call.

GZ's home is at the southwest corner of the subdivision, Frank Taaffe's nearly at the NW corner, on the other end of the row of townhouses from the shortcut I think Trayvon took. Trayvon's father's (Tracy Martin) fiance's home is almost at the south east corner, near where Twin Trees Lane ends at the back entrance.

Trayvon's body was found almost at the other end of the block of townhouses where she lives, south of where the sidewalk between the two rows of townhouses run north-south, about half-way up the last set of units of townhouses. Each 'unit' is 5-6 townhouses connected to each other. On that block, the units are about 50 feet apart with shared backyards and a sidewalk running up the middle.

I hope this helps!

IMO, JMO, etc.

diesel
05-06-2012, 09:30 PM
Csziggy, thank you, that helps a lot. Seems a long creepy walk to get safely home to me.

AngelWings444
05-06-2012, 09:35 PM
:welcome4: diesel!

Thanks to everyone for explaining things so well! We have the best people here. :offtopic:

IzzyBlanche
05-06-2012, 10:03 PM
Another timeline source:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/14/2748048/interactive-map-of-trayvon-martin.html

csziggy
05-07-2012, 12:37 AM
Another timeline source:

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/14/2748048/interactive-map-of-trayvon-martin.html

That's interesting - their map shows the "walking shortcut" as being at the other end of the townhouse unit as I was thinking it was. I assumed that people would use the end closest to Oregon, the street in front of the subdivision. The Miami Herald shows that it might be at the other end.

Coincidentally, the last townhouse on that unit belongs to FT. That makes me wonder.:waitasec:

IMO, JMO, etc.

Spoiler
05-07-2012, 12:54 AM
Why is everyone still calling this girl his girlfriend ... Not the case at all.

Spoiler
05-07-2012, 01:04 AM
So after the police told GZ "you don't need to do that" George said "OK" and answered several more questions by the cops. Had TM kept running he would have been home by then ... correct?

LynnM
05-07-2012, 07:18 AM
Why is everyone still calling this girl his girlfriend ... Not the case at all.

Because we don't sleuth minors and we don't cite blogs on this site.

(And even if we did, I am not at all sure that the correct girl has been identified by those who do.)

LambChop
05-07-2012, 07:38 AM
So after the police told GZ "you don't need to do that" George said "OK" and answered several more questions by the cops. Had TM kept running he would have been home by then ... correct?

TM was on the phone with his gf. GZ was following him by car. Once TM lost sight of GZ why would he think GZ would get out of his car, in the rain, to follow TM. He wasn't doing anything wrong and at that point was probably concentrating on his conversation with his gf. It's possible TM might not have felt threatened until he saw GZ on foot still pursing him and that is why he did not run all the way home. He did tell his gf he would not run. TM also did not call 911 so it is believable that he did not think GZ would try to follow him home.

An eye witness did say she saw two figures running towards the spot where TM's body was found, yet GZ never mentions that they were running from what we know of his statements. jmo

AJ Noiter
05-07-2012, 05:57 PM
This critical portion of the timeline for this case only spanned seven minutes and seven seconds from the beginning of the 911 call at 7:09:34 pm up to and including the gunshot at 7:16:41 pm. LE's first responder was on the scene THIRTY SECONDS later at 7:17:11 pm.
<snipped, just wanted to use your words of an indicator for a picture>


Concerned Papa: I know you're working diligently to get the exact spot of the body figured out. In one of the videos that I've linked (the one where "John" was hiding behind his door) I remembered seeing, for a brief moment, what looked to me like a body being covered by a yellow tarp in the footage. That video seems to have been removed so I scoured that source and found another video with the footage of the body/yellow tarp. You can find it at 0:48 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK3ZdDEfjzg .. I believe the video is being taped from the vantage of around the "[2:26]" marker on the images. Hope this helps!

Edit below:
The "[2:26]" beside the red person marker, to be specific. I don't think the angle is quite that extreme, but in that general direction.

Concerned Papa
05-07-2012, 06:35 PM
Concerned Papa: I know you're working diligently to get the exact spot of the body figured out. In one of the videos that I've linked (the one where "John" was hiding behind his door) I remembered seeing, for a brief moment, what looked to me like a body being covered by a yellow tarp in the footage. That video seems to have been removed so I scoured that source and found another video with the footage of the body/yellow tarp. You can find it at 0:48 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK3ZdDEfjzg .. I believe the video is being taped from the vantage of around the "[2:26]" marker on the images. Hope this helps!

Edit below:
The "[2:26]" beside the red person marker, to be specific. I don't think the angle is quite that extreme, but in that general direction.

Thanks, I have the video. This comes up from time to time, but nothing that I know of supports that yellow tarp having a body under it. I'll be the first one to admit that it sort of looks like a head sticking out from underneath it, but dang, surely those people showed more respect to the dead than that, KWIM?

At some point maybe they'll tell us something, but I've got locations by "witnesses" from the ridiculous (like that Francis Taaffe deal I posted) all the way up to and including O'Mara and the State Investigator's comments at the Bond Hearing. I don't think I've ever seen a case where there's this much convoluted information out there.

At least it seems to be coming into a bit more clear focus with four sources being very near, and overlapping one another. I view it as extremely important in this particular case, possibly more so than any other I have ever been involved in.

In this case a very clear picture of what George Zimmerman has told LE as to the timing and his path of his movement for that night has emerged. Not one statement, not one word by anyone has ever placed him anywhere except on that sidewalk once he got out of his vehicle at [2:08]. He told LE the attack happened as he was walking back to his vehicle. I just don't see how it could be true if the body was found half a football field away as his own attorney said at the Bond Hearing.

People here don't know or understand because I've never stated as such before, but I live in Florida. I have hunted my entire life. I have been a proud member of the NRA a large part of my life. I own, at least, 25 guns for hunting purposes. When the legislature was debating the SYG law, I fully supported it then, and I fully support the concept of standing your ground against lethal aggression now.

However, as strongly as I feel about being able to stand your ground, I could never support the concept of "chasing your ground". If that boy's dead body is not shown to be somewhere near that sidewalk, I can see zero justification for the actions taken by George Zimmerman. That boy was unarmed and had committed no crime.

It could have been MY son.

OK...Papa's off his soapbox now, LOL

Phoenixfla
05-08-2012, 01:47 AM
Thanks, I have the video. This comes up from time to time, but nothing that I know of supports that yellow tarp having a body under it. I'll be the first one to admit that it sort of looks like a head sticking out from underneath it, but dang, surely those people showed more respect to the dead than that, KWIM?

At some point maybe they'll tell us something, but I've got locations by "witnesses" from the ridiculous (like that Francis Taaffe deal I posted) all the way up to and including O'Mara and the State Investigator's comments at the Bond Hearing. I don't think I've ever seen a case where there's this much convoluted information out there.

At least it seems to be coming into a bit more clear focus with four sources being very near, and overlapping one another. I view it as extremely important in this particular case, possibly more so than any other I have ever been involved in.

In this case a very clear picture of what George Zimmerman has told LE as to the timing and his path of his movement for that night has emerged. Not one statement, not one word by anyone has ever placed him anywhere except on that sidewalk once he got out of his vehicle at [2:08]. He told LE the attack happened as he was walking back to his vehicle. I just don't see how it could be true if the body was found half a football field away as his own attorney said at the Bond Hearing.

People here don't know or understand because I've never stated as such before, but I live in Florida. I have hunted my entire life. I have been a proud member of the NRA a large part of my life. I own, at least, 25 guns for hunting purposes. When the legislature was debating the SYG law, I fully supported it then, and I fully support the concept of standing your ground against lethal aggression now.

However, as strongly as I feel about being able to stand your ground, I could never support the concept of "chasing your ground". If that boy's dead body is not shown to be somewhere near that sidewalk, I can see zero justification for the actions taken by George Zimmerman. That boy was unarmed and had committed no crime.

It could have been MY son.

OK...Papa's off his soapbox now, LOL

Don't you think GZ would have had given a pretty darn good reason at the walk-thru the next day to not have been arrested on the spot? Surely his story must have ended with the body being located where it actually was.

I think that just because we have not heard how they ended up where they did does not necessarily mean that there is not a reasonable explanation.

who
05-08-2012, 03:20 AM
Seems this here puts it close to the T.

Reader
05-08-2012, 03:57 PM
Seems this here puts it close to the T.

I'm not sure because of 3 reasons:

>>I read in one of the earlier articles (don't have available now) that LE roped off the entire length of that long sidewalk. Even tho I don't have proof right now, that is reasonable since there were witnesses up and down in those apartments and if the confrontation moved away from the T, LE would want to keep it closed to gather evidence (I hope). IMO

>>Also, IF that is Trayvon's body lying there, as Papa said, they sure are not showing much respect for him if they can't even cover him up completely. I had thought he was transported to the morgue fairly soon. Surely they didn't just let him lay there while they are talking to witnesses and making their notes. That's very disturbing to me....IMO

>>MOM said in the bond hearing, on tape and transcript here, that according to the AG's evidence Trayvon was found 70 yards from his home which would go with Papa's diagram.

AJ Noiter
05-08-2012, 09:43 PM
Couldn't edit my post with the sun information, here's the moon info for the 26th.. not sure why I didn't think to post it back then, brain fart is my defense.

Waxing Crescent
19% / 0.14
Aries (http://lunaf.com/english/moon-phases/lunar-calendar-2012/02/26/)

LambChop
05-08-2012, 10:10 PM
Couldn't edit my post with the sun information, here's the moon info for the 26th.. not sure why I didn't think to post it back then, brain fart is my defense.

It was raining.

AJ Noiter
05-08-2012, 10:12 PM
It was raining.

It was more for the sake of being complete than anything. Just like the sun information, at those times of day, depending on the cloud cover, it wouldn't matter when Civil/Nautical/Astronomical twilight starts and ends.

LambChop
05-09-2012, 08:16 AM
It was more for the sake of being complete than anything. Just like the sun information, at those times of day, depending on the cloud cover, it wouldn't matter when Civil/Nautical/Astronomical twilight starts and ends.

Didn't someone mention that there was moonlight? It was raining so there would have been no moonlight when TM was shot. jmo

AJ Noiter
05-09-2012, 08:18 AM
Didn't someone mention that there was moonlight? It was raining so there would have been no moonlight when TM was shot. jmo

I haven't seen anything to that effect, but one witness has been recorded as saying "there was no moonlight" - the young boy.

LambChop
05-09-2012, 08:27 AM
I haven't seen anything to that effect, but one witness has been recorded as saying "there was no moonlight" - the young boy.

LOL. No, not a witness. It was a poster. Someone suggested there was moonlight and I thought that is why you were recording it in the timeline. jmo

AJ Noiter
05-09-2012, 08:32 AM
LOL. No, not a witness. It was a poster. Someone suggested there was moonlight and I thought that is why you were recording it in the timeline. jmo

Oh, nope. Just doing it for the sake of being complete. I was also considering posting weather data for that same reason. I've made the decision to post weather data now lol

METAR KSFB 262353Z 04006KT 7SM -RA OVC030 17/16 A3030 RMK AO2 RAB35 SLP259 P0000 60005 T01720156 10206 20172 53003

It's been a while, so I'll try my best to parse the METAR correctly:
Time: 6:53PM
Visibility: 7 miles
Clouds: Overcast @ 30,000ft, light rain
Wind: 040° (0° is North, so this would be NorthEast?) at 6 knots
Temperature: 17°C, Dew point: 16°C
Pressure: 30.30in

Just K
05-09-2012, 10:18 AM
At least one witness stated that it was too dark to see and that ONLY ONE neighbor had a porch light on. I read, that house always had that light on at night.

Several of the 911 callers reported that it was too dark too see anything clearly. One even described Zimmerman, after the shooting, as BLACK. That is how dark it was out there.

Alecto
05-10-2012, 01:54 AM
*** What time TM left the townhome to walk to 7-11?
(i.e. how long did it take TM to walk there)
I checked the 7-eleven.com store locator and it had the closest store by a good margin being 0.8 miles away (east). Using a human average walking speed of 3mph that's a 16 minute walk one way.

The time that TM left at is kind of unclear, originally it was said that TM went to the store during an NBA game half time but just checking the TV guide showed that to not be possible as the game hadn't even started yet.

*** Are there phone calls confirmed during the walk to 7-11?
Yes. Based on the phone records TM was on the phone virtually non stop from 4:28-7:16. To the minute, when one call ends another starts.

*** Other than the apparently overlapping GF phone calls, are there any other details between:


6:00<>6:30 when TM made the purchase @ 7-11, and

7:09, when GZ called to report the SP on foot in the neighborhood (near clubhouse IIRC)?

There have been snippets of a version of events by TM's girlfriend but they are very incomplete and contradictory at the moment. GZ has been reported to have been on his way to a store himself but I've never seem specific details about when or where he first saw TM.

Concerned Papa
05-10-2012, 03:18 AM
I checked the 7-eleven.com store locator and it had the closest store by a good margin being 0.8 miles away (east). Using a human average walking speed of 3mph that's a 16 minute walk one way.

The time that TM left at is kind of unclear, originally it was said that TM went to the store during an NBA game half time but just checking the TV guide showed that to not be possible as the game hadn't even started yet.


Yes. Based on the phone records TM was on the phone virtually non stop from 4:28-7:16. To the minute, when one call ends another starts.


There have been snippets of a version of events by TM's girlfriend but they are very incomplete and contradictory at the moment. GZ has been reported to have been on his way to a store himself but I've never seem specific details about when or where he first saw TM.BBM

Welcome to WebSleuths! I'm glad to see a new member who's familiar with time/distance calculations.

Using the same average walking speed for the 7-11 trip, how long do you figure it would take to walk 317 feet?

cityslick
05-10-2012, 08:37 AM
BBM

Welcome to WebSleuths! I'm glad to see a new member who's familiar with time/distance calculations.

Using the same average walking speed for the 7-11 trip, how long do you figure it would take to walk 317 feet?

This was my post a few weeks ago.

If GZ spotted TM where your marker is at the 'he's running' comment and TM's ultimate destination was 379 feet from that point.

Average running speed of a human is 10mph which translates to 14.6 feet per second.

379 feet divided by 14.6 = 25.95 (seconds). Round it up to 26seconds.

Concerned Papa
05-10-2012, 08:57 AM
This was my post a few weeks ago.

If GZ spotted TM where your marker is at the 'he's running' comment and TM's ultimate destination was 379 feet from that point.

Average running speed of a human is 10mph which translates to 14.6 feet per second.

379 feet divided by 14.6 = 25.95 (seconds). Round it up to 26seconds.

Which, as I'm reasonably sure is known, has no bearing on the question I posed in either rate of travel or relevance. What one person "might", "maybe", "if", "could've" done while running is not at all the same consideration as what another apparently said they DID, in fact, do while walking.

cityslick
05-10-2012, 09:40 AM
Which, as I'm reasonably sure is known, has no bearing on the question I posed in either rate of travel or relevance. What one person "might", "maybe", "if", "could've" done while running is not at all the same consideration as what another apparently said they DID, in fact, do while walking.

You asked how long it would take to walk 317 feet. I gave you the math for roughly 380 feet.

The math doesn't lie.

LambChop
05-10-2012, 09:53 AM
Which, as I'm reasonably sure is known, has no bearing on the question I posed in either rate of travel or relevance. What one person "might", "maybe", "if", "could've" done while running is not at all the same consideration as what another apparently said they DID, in fact, do while walking.

Wouldn't it seem reasonable that if GZ walked or ran all the way over to the next street (for an address) that he would have seen TM walking down the center sidewalk???? I'm beginning to think TM went onto one of the patios or into the bushes and waited until GZ returned. TM thought he had lost him for good before he decided to continue on home. That would account for some of the time, would answer the question why GZ did not see TM walking down that center path and would make sense when TM told the girlfriend he thought he had lost GZ. Once GZ hung up from LE he doubled back and found TM which is what the gf heard on her phone. That would also explain the comment by GZ, "what are you doing here". At that point GZ may have tried to approach TM and TM may have turned to run figuring this guy is nuts.

This would make the witness' statement that two people ran past her door towards where TM's body was found sound about right. GZ's statement was that TM ran towards him while he was on the cut through and we know that just did not happen. jmo

LambChop
05-10-2012, 09:56 AM
You asked how long it would take to walk 317 feet. I gave you the math for roughly 380 feet.

The math doesn't lie.

I believe you said running speed and not walking.

Concerned Papa
05-10-2012, 09:56 AM
You asked how long it would take to walk 317 feet. I gave you the math for roughly 380 feet.

The math doesn't lie.

Math surely doesn't lie. Please note that the math used in the analogy being referenced was for RUNNING 380 feet, not WALKING 317 feet as the question I posed asked.

Check Robert Zimmerman's interview with Sean Hannity. Check Attorney O'Mara's re direct of Investigator Gilbreath. Check the "leaked" article at the Orlando Sentinel that was confirmed as accurate by Sanford's City Manager. NEVER ONCE does anyone say George Zimmerman was "running".

There's a good reason for that.

Phoenixfla
05-10-2012, 10:24 AM
Concerned Papa,

I have a question regarding the statement of the GF:

The lawyer, who took an affidavit from the girl, quotes the girl on the cellphone as saying that Trayvon was walking home from the store and had temporarily taken refuge from the rain. He then began walking again, when he tells her, according to Crump, "I think this dude is following me."

"She tells him, 'baby, be careful, just run home,' " Crump said.

According to the girl, Trayvon says, "I think I lost him" then moments later says, "He is right behind me again. I'm not going to run, I'm going to walk fast."

Crump said "she hears another voice, 'What are you doing around here?' Trayvon says, 'Why are you following me?' " At that point, according to the girl, Travyon is pushed and his voice changes.

"She hears the altercation, suddenly, someone just hit the phone, because that's the last she hears," Crump said. She did not hear the shooting.

Where do you suspect TM "had temporarily taken refuge from the rain"?

diesel
05-10-2012, 10:26 AM
Where can I ask or read about how hard it was raining that night? Was it heavy rain? And did it continue throughout the time from when GZ spotted Trayvon through to when the police arrived?

Concerned Papa
05-10-2012, 10:30 AM
Concerned Papa,

I have a question regarding the statement of the GF:



Where do you suspect TM "had temporarily taken refuge from the rain"?

Good Morning Phoenix. While I can't say for certain, my opinion has always been that he was under the front entry or awning at the clubhouse. I'm at my office and don't have access to my saved links at home, but IIRC, Tracy Martin said that in his "walk through" interview early on.

Don't hold me to that, but that's the way I remember it.

AJ Noiter
05-10-2012, 10:33 AM
Where can I ask or read about how hard it was raining that night? Was it heavy rain? And did it continue throughout the time from when GZ spotted Trayvon through to when the police arrived?

In this thread you'll find the METAR from that night. METARs are what are used all over the US, and I believe the world. METAR information does have varying degrees of precipitation, but it's not specific. From the METAR you'll see the "-RA," the minus sign indicates "light" and the RA indicates "rain." There may be more in the information after the RMK (Remarks) but to know exactly where they are and what they mean you'd have to talk to someone at the weather station that made the observation.

Edit: And welcome to the forums!

Further Edit: When I say "they have varying degrees of precip" what I mean is that these would have been rain drops. There are notes for mist and such also.

lauriej
05-10-2012, 10:44 AM
Where can I ask or read about how hard it was raining that night? Was it heavy rain? And did it continue throughout the time from when GZ spotted Trayvon through to when the police arrived?

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSFB/2012/2/26/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA
--sanford weather---february 26/2012---



5:53 PM
64.0 °F
0.01 in
Overcast

sunset: 6:22 p.m.

6:53 PM
63.0 °F
0.00 in
Light Rain

7:53 PM
63.0 °F
0.03 in
Overcast

8:00 PM
62.6 °F
Overcast

8:53 PM
64.0 °F
0.00 in
Light Rain

9:53 PM
64.9 °F
0.01 in
Overcast

10:35 PM
64.4 °F
0.06 in
Heavy Rain

10:51 PM
64.4 °F
0.11 in
Rain

10:53 PM
64.9 °F
0.11 in
Rain

11:53 PM
64.0 °F
0.00 in
Mostly Cloudy

Alecto
05-10-2012, 10:49 AM
BBM

Welcome to WebSleuths! I'm glad to see a new member who's familiar with time/distance calculations.

Using the same average walking speed for the 7-11 trip, how long do you figure it would take to walk 317 feet?
Thank you for the welcome.

317 feet at 3mph would be 72 seconds. (380 feet would be 86 seconds.)

3mph is 4.4 feet per second.

3mph is just a very rough average for walking speed though, so there is some guesswork involved in the equation since actual speed easily could have been a little slower or faster.

Phoenixfla
05-10-2012, 11:05 AM
Good Morning Phoenix. While I can't say for certain, my opinion has always been that he was under the front entry or awning at the clubhouse. I'm at my office and don't have access to my saved links at home, but IIRC, Tracy Martin said that in his "walk through" interview early on.

Don't hold me to that, but that's the way I remember it.

ahhhhh. Well that makes more sense. I was thinking all along that he was taking shelter from the rain during the missing minutes between when he runs and the confrontation.

Thanks!

diesel
05-10-2012, 11:30 AM
Thank you for the info on the rain. Was just wondering why GZ's head didn't show signs of being wet from rain. Hair, tho short, didn't look wet. Don't think the police cars returning to the station had wipers on or looked wet but I looked around for that video and couldn't find it.

Thanks again. And for the welcome, too.

Concerned Papa
05-10-2012, 11:38 AM
Thank you for the welcome.

317 feet at 3mph would be 72 seconds. (380 feet would be 86 seconds.)

3mph is 4.4 feet per second.

3mph is just a very rough average for walking speed though, so there is some guesswork involved in the equation since actual speed easily could have been a little slower or faster.

You are completely correct in all regards. So to take this one step further, would you agree that a "walk" of 317 feet which began at [2:08] run time of a 911 call would have ended somewhere around [3:20] of this call?

R.U.Kidding!
05-10-2012, 01:59 PM
RE: Timeline
The Defense is on an all out media blitz to sway public open. All we need to do to see that this is true is to read the "media/no discussion" thread from start until today.

IMO:
We still need a place for general discussion. The current available threads are either at a standstill or are overwhelmingly representative of the Defense's side. Which actually doesn't represent the majority view of the general public.

I agree, Just K. In fact I sent in a suggestion for a new thread about the Coverage the MSM has given this case--I think it is very divisive.

Have not heard back on my suggested thread. We do need a place for general discussion. Thanks.

sleonardelli
05-10-2012, 02:18 PM
I haven't seen anything to that effect, but one witness has been recorded as saying "there was no moonlight" - the young boy.

There was no moonlight and only one porchlight according to the teen who saw part of the confrontation:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/68844192/News/Video-Teen-witnessed-part-of-Trayvon-Zimmerman-confrontation

AJ Noiter
05-10-2012, 02:26 PM
There was no moonlight and only one porchlight according to the teen who saw part of the confrontation:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/68844192/News/Video-Teen-witnessed-part-of-Trayvon-Zimmerman-confrontation

I believe that's exactly what I was stating in the quote of me that you had. I could be wrong though.

sleonardelli
05-10-2012, 04:28 PM
The timeline I put together from the transcript of GZ's call from MSM , the recording of GZ's call from the City of Sanford sit with times I noted from listening to it, the information on Trayvon Martin's phone logs from http://media.nbcbayarea.com/documents/call+log.pdf, other information from police reports and Sanford Police dispatch logs from the City of Sanford site, and from SPD security footage at the police station. Some of the sources are no longer on the internet at the location I had for them so I don't have links.

ETA - this source has a lot of the resources I used to create this timeline: http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2012/3/23/trayvon_martin_911_c.html

If this needs to be removed due to the lack of current links, I will understand.

Times NOT in 24 hour format are minutes:seconds:?? from the beginning of GZ's call as I measured with my audio software. ALL times in that format noted at the end of the immediately preceding comments on the recording. Notes in green are sounds I heard and thought worth mentioning.

19:11:56 (02:22:36)
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah (wind noises)
19:11:56 (02:25:20)
Dispatcher: Ok, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Ok
19:13:45 (04:11:00) (recording of call ends)
GF: 19:12:00 (@ 19:11:30-19:12:30) to 19:16:00 (@19:15:30-19:16:30)

@3 minutes from the time GZ acknowledges advice NOT TO FOLLOW and the approximate time the GF hears the confrontation. Seems GZ would have plenty of time to get back to his truck

19:11:41 (02:06:65) **** he's running.
19:12:00 (19:11:30-19:12:30) Trayvon receives call from girlfriend

Seems like Trayvon STOPPED to talk to the girlfriend instead of going home. Could this be when Trayvon thought he lost GZ?

sleonardelli
05-10-2012, 04:30 PM
I believe that's exactly what I was stating in the quote of me that you had. I could be wrong though.

I was simply trying to provide a link to your comment.

sleonardelli
05-10-2012, 04:39 PM
Concerned Papa,

I have a question regarding the statement of the GF:



Where do you suspect TM "had temporarily taken refuge from the rain"?

According to the timeline at the beginning of the thread:

19:10:22 (00:48:42)
Dispatcher: OK—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

Or, if you're referring to when Trayvon received the call @ aprx 19:12 - it may not have been raining at that time:

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSFB/2012/2/26/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA
--sanford weather---february 26/2012---

6:53 PM
63.0 °F
0.00 in
Light Rain

7:53 PM
63.0 °F
0.03 in
Overcast

AJ Noiter
05-10-2012, 04:42 PM
I was simply trying to provide a link to your comment.

Ah, thanks!

Alecto
05-10-2012, 06:04 PM
You are completely correct in all regards. So to take this one step further, would you agree that a "walk" of 317 feet which began at [2:08] run time of a 911 call would have ended somewhere around [3:20] of this call?
It's a tricky question because that is the right amount of time for a walk of that distance but it doesn't seem to match what happened. I've been focused on the earlier precall timeline but I like your graphics that try to pin down what GZ is saying at various moments while he is walking, very nice work.

As you've already observed something is not right with GZ's timeline. I think a possible explanation might be that truck was a little further away then commonly reported and that GZ loitered a bit while finishing his call at the east end of the cut through. I believe GZ had sincerely thought TM had run to the south east exit and when GZ reached the street side where he could see that exit he was confused by not seeing TM in the distance in that direction. So maybe he spent a little time scanning the area trying see if he could see where TM had gone and I think that is possibly what was going on when the call ended.

It's still a fairly short walk back to his truck though so GZ still must have not just headed back directly, I believe he has mentioned looking for a house number first so that might explain a few missing seconds. The first 911 caller may have been slow to react as well so maybe the fight had started a little earlier then commonly believed. (And of course, GZ could just be lying about a bunch of details as well.)

In general GZ and TM both moved in ways that don't seem intuitive for three minutes. Around 7:16 they are fighting in spot a few feet from where they had apparently both passed 3 minutes earlier without incident. Very strange.

Concerned Papa
05-10-2012, 07:00 PM
It's a tricky question because that is the right amount of time for a walk of that distance but it doesn't seem to match what happened. I've been focused on the earlier precall timeline but I like your graphics that try to pin down what GZ is saying at various moments while he is walking, very nice work.

As you've already observed something is not right with GZ's timeline. I think a possible explanation might be that truck was a little further away then commonly reported and that GZ loitered a bit while finishing his call at the east end of the cut through. I believe GZ had sincerely thought TM had run to the south east exit and when GZ reached the street side where he could see that exit he was confused by not seeing TM in the distance in that direction. So maybe he spent a little time scanning the area trying see if he could see where TM had gone and I think that is possibly what was going on when the call ended.

It's still a fairly short walk back to his truck though so GZ still must have not just headed back directly, I believe he has mentioned looking for a house number first so that might explain a few missing seconds. The first 911 caller may have been slow to react as well so maybe the fight had started a little earlier then commonly believed. (And of course, GZ could just be lying about a bunch of details as well.)

In general GZ and TM both moved in ways that don't seem intuitive for three minutes. Around 7:16 they are fighting in spot a few feet from where they had apparently both passed 3 minutes earlier without incident. Very strange.

I'm basing the position I have shown for the truck on 2 things.

#1

What George said to the 911 dispatcher:

Zimmerman: He’s running. [2:08]

911 dispatcher: He’s running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman: Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14]

Later, he says the following:

911 dispatcher: Alright, where are you going to meet with them at?

Zimmerman: Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck. [3:10]

911 dispatcher: Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21]

Zimmerman: Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25]

Other that the location I have shown, where in this entire development could George's truck have been parked AND:


George be able to see TM start running "down towards the back entrance" while inside,



Be in full view of responding LE officers after going past the mail boxes,



Be parked at a "cut through"?


#2

What his father said on the Sean Hannity show:

ZIMMERMAN: From where George's vehicle was, there's a sidewalk that goes to the next street over. Off of that sidewalk there's another sidewalk that goes between two rows of townhomes

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/04/05/exclusive-george-zimmermans-father-defends-son-trayvon-martin-shooting?page=2#ixzz1svJVUFyf

I don't see anywhere else in this entire development all of the above qualifiers could be met except in the location I have shown.

Now, whether or not any of it's true is another matter...........

Just K
05-10-2012, 07:31 PM
One has to question everything that GZ said and did. Just because he said Trayvon started to run, Trayvon was walking toward him, Trayvon had his hand in his wasteband, he (GZ) lost sight of Trayvon, he (GZ) started back to his truck, and Trayvon ambushed him where the sidewalks meet...doesn't mean that any of that actually happened.

GZ would have us believe that he and Trayvon somehow started fisticuffs at the crossing of the sidewalks and ended up three buildings down and 70 yards from Trayvon's backdoor. Did they log roll the distance or did Trayvon try to get home and GZ chased after him? Or did Trayvon make it all the way to his sliding glass door and find it locked? Did GZ confront him on his patio and Trayvon took off running away from the man with the gun?

Really, what makes more sense? Knowing where Trayvon's phone was found is going to make all the difference in the world.

Alecto
05-10-2012, 09:10 PM
I'm basing the position I have shown for the truck on 2 things.

#1

What George said to the 911 dispatcher:

Later, he says the following:

Other that the location I have shown, where in this entire development could George's truck have been parked AND:


George be able to see TM start running "down towards the back entrance" while inside,



Be in full view of responding LE officers after going past the mail boxes,



Be parked at a "cut through"?


#2

What his father said on the Sean Hannity show:

I don't see anywhere else in this entire development all of the above qualifiers could be met except in the location I have shown.

Now, whether or not any of it's true is another matter...........
I regret not being more precise in my wording, I am in basic agreement with the truck being near that particular cut through and I also agree it is very possible it was exactly where you place it. GZ does say that his truck is by the cut through but the way he words it initially it he just says "pass the mailboxes, that's my truck" which makes me think his truck was maybe more in between the mailboxes and the cut through rather then being precisely at the cut through. Intuitively it also makes sense to me that if GZ parked to observe TM at the clubhouse he would have parked a little closer to it then the cut through.

Concerned Papa
05-11-2012, 12:45 AM
I regret not being more precise in my wording, I am in basic agreement with the truck being near that particular cut through and I also agree it is very possible it was exactly where you place it. GZ does say that his truck is by the cut through but the way he words it initially it he just says "pass the mailboxes, that's my truck" which makes me think his truck was maybe more in between the mailboxes and the cut through rather then being precisely at the cut through. Intuitively it also makes sense to me that if GZ parked to observe TM at the clubhouse he would have parked a little closer to it then the cut through.BBM

Just keep in mind, if he was parked further back toward the mailboxes he would have been parked in front of any where from 1110 Twin Trees to 1160 Twin Trees, depending on where, and this could not have been a truthful response to the dispatcher:

911 dispatcher: Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21]

Zimmerman: Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25]

Just K
05-11-2012, 01:50 AM
I hope that both sides are reading here and hire a media/public relations rep. That way at least the field of play would be level. The prosecution needs to do background research on every one of GZ's claims at public service.

1. Was the mentor program disbanded?
if so, did he sign a contract saying that his mentorship was only valid within his capacity as a volunteer and representative of the agency/

2. Did he really try to rally for the homeless man by handing out fliers? Is there any proof except his and his family members' word for it.

3. What did his "boys" in Manassass get locked up for? Did a partner or friend of his sister get beat up or worked over by GZ's "boys?"

4. Why did Gz leave private school and go to a public HS?

5. Will the female patron of the bar or party that he had a shoving match with testify to his violent nature?

6. Why did his business fail? Where is his ex business partner today?

7. Will a College Administrator attest to the fact that GZ was working toward an AA in General Studies ans not in Criminal Justice?

8. Will the ex girlfriend testify to GZ's violent nature?

All of these questions and more need to be answered.

who
05-11-2012, 03:14 AM
BBM

Just keep in mind, if he was parked further back toward the mailboxes he would have been parked in front of any where from 1110 Twin Trees to 1160 Twin Trees, depending on where, and this could not have been a truthful response to the dispatcher:
Have you seen this CP?

It provides a little peek at the community again, and has Taaffe showing the *supposed* exact spot on the concrete where GZ was "victimized."

ABC7's Scott Thuman went inside the Sanford, Florida neighborhood where the shooting happened.
He talks with Frank Taaffe, a friend of Zimmerman's, and a former neighborhood watch volunteer himself, who says it was self defense.
Taafe shows us what he says eye witnesses told him happened that night in the Twin Lakes neighborhood.
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/05/george-zimmerman-did-he-shoot-trayvon-martin-in-self-defense--75855.html

Video at link.

Concerned Papa
05-11-2012, 04:30 AM
Have you seen this CP?

It provides a little peek at the community again, and has Taaffe showing the *supposed* exact spot on the concrete where GZ was "victimized."

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/05/george-zimmerman-did-he-shoot-trayvon-martin-in-self-defense--75855.html

Video at link.

Thanks. I hadn't seen that, but it's good to see nothing's changed with Francis. If you don't like his story one day:

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMTaaffeBody.png

Just come back later and he'll show you a different one:

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMTaaffeVer.png

Then in the same interview with Francis, the reporter points out ANOTHER location for the body 25-30 feet away from where Francis had just shown!

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMTaaffeVer1.png

Look back at the NBC walk thru w/ Francis back in March I've posted numerous times before. Notice where he said George was parked. Now, he's got him down at the end of the street almost to the cut through, TURNED AROUND facing TM as he walked, AND managed to get the ole circling the truck in there.

This is nuts.

Ambrosia
05-11-2012, 04:41 AM
Frank Taffe tells us where GZ was parked. That area looks to be about 2/3 down Twin Trees to the first curve. Well Frank. How is it that when George says: "Hey we've had some break ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy,,/// "Retreat View Circle, the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle." "He's just walking around the area looking at all the houses."
So maybe that is where GZ ended up being parked. Because if he was parked at Twin Trees he could not be able to view anyone walking about on Retreat View, looking at all the houses now could he? And why park and there instead of driving to the curve and save time from having to walk down the street? Taffe also indicates that the vehicle's headlights were facing towards the front entrance and Retreat View. Did he back up? Yet on the tape GZ says he was parked at a cut-through.

LambChop
05-11-2012, 07:01 AM
BBM

Just keep in mind, if he was parked further back toward the mailboxes he would have been parked in front of any where from 1110 Twin Trees to 1160 Twin Trees, depending on where, and this could not have been a truthful response to the dispatcher:

Plus if LE was looking for his truck and it was on Twin Trees why would GZ be looking for an address on Retreat View Circle at the end of the cut through. That makes no sense??? The last thing LE asked him was the location of his truck. jmo

LiveLaughLuv
05-11-2012, 07:16 AM
I believe FTaaffe wasn't there and is giving a hearsay account of what GZ might have told him...Doesn't mean it's a fact...I believe his advocates are trying desperatly to get that SYG defense for his buddy..

I don't believe third hand accounts are truthful...it's more like playing telephone game..a few people are whispered a sentence and by the end, the original story changes as the people get the message wrong..:what:

cityslick
05-11-2012, 09:15 AM
I believe FTaaffe wasn't there and is giving a hearsay account of what GZ might have told him...Doesn't mean it's a fact...I believe his advocates are trying desperatly to get that SYG defense for his buddy..

I don't believe third hand accounts are truthful...it's more like playing telephone game..a few people are whispered a sentence and by the end, the original story changes as the people get the message wrong..:what:

I agree, a lot of what is known from that evening has come from 2nd or 3rd hand information and there is nothing to collaborate it with because we still have never seen the entire statement that GZ gave police that night, only what he said in the 911 call.

I think we're going to find out that a lot of theories are going to change as details continue to come to light.

Alecto
05-11-2012, 09:36 AM
BBM

Just keep in mind, if he was parked further back toward the mailboxes he would have been parked in front of any where from 1110 Twin Trees to 1160 Twin Trees, depending on where, and this could not have been a truthful response to the dispatcher:
Wether GZ is innocent or guilty I don't think him giving an imprecise truck location to the dispatcher is going to be an issue against his credibility. People just often use vague or accidentally incorrect language when giving directions. It may seem misleading to us internet sleuths but that's just cause we have limited access to information about the case, to the police it's never been a mystery where the truck was since it was close enough to what GZ said that once on at area they could find it easily and they know exactly where it really was.

BiancaS
05-11-2012, 09:37 AM
I believe FTaaffe wasn't there and is giving a hearsay account of what GZ might have told him...Doesn't mean it's a fact...I believe his advocates are trying desperatly to get that SYG defense for his buddy..

I don't believe third hand accounts are truthful...it's more like playing telephone game..a few people are whispered a sentence and by the end, the original story changes as the people get the message wrong..:what:


FT likes to hear himself talk (and I cringe at the mention of his name). However...I also think there is a reason why some of the neighbors are reportedly coming to GZ's defense after the fact. The homeowners are going to be subject to a civil lawsuit UNLESS GZ is found not guilty. They may have sufficient insurance for the Association, but very possibly they could be subjected to an assessment to pay what is not covered by insurance!! We have John, FT, and the Rodriguez family (that saw the heavily bandaged and injured GZ the next day). Just a thought.

LambChop
05-11-2012, 09:59 AM
FT likes to hear himself talk (and I cringe at the mention of his name). However...I also think there is a reason why some of the neighbors are reportedly coming to GZ's defense after the fact. The homeowners are going to be subject to a civil lawsuit UNLESS GZ is found not guilty. They may have sufficient insurance for the Association, but very possibly they could be subjected to an assessment to pay what is not covered by insurance!! We have John, FT, and the Rodriguez family (that saw the heavily bandaged and injured GZ the next day). Just a thought.

Whether GZ is found guilty or not guilty a civil suit is still possible. jmo

cityslick
05-11-2012, 10:02 AM
Whether GZ is found guilty or not guilty a civil suit is still possible. jmo

Unless he is saved by SYG.

Elley Mae
05-11-2012, 10:05 AM
Whether GZ is found guilty or not guilty a civil suit is still possible. jmo

I am wondering who GZ will sue after this is over. jmo

LiveLaughLuv
05-11-2012, 10:14 AM
Unless he is saved by SYG.

If, big IF....the prosecution has already stated, they do not believe this to be a self defense issue, also stated that TM could have used that same defense..and they will vigoroulsy fight that issue, should MOM take it on..

I remember MOM not knowing if he will use this for his defense...he needs to see the evidence first...and I'm suspecting the call into the NEN has already removed the doubt with GZ's own words being used against him..

LambChop
05-11-2012, 10:14 AM
Unless he is saved by SYG.

TM was not a criminal. I could see that being challenged also. jmo

LambChop
05-11-2012, 10:18 AM
I am wondering who GZ will sue after this is over. jmo

I don't know. His ex-attorneys that weren't his attorneys? AC for arresting him when he only wanted to come in a "talk" about his case? GZ admitted he shot TM not sure who he could sue. jmo

rossva
05-11-2012, 10:36 AM
*bump*


let's go ahead and start putting a timeline together in one thread.
We are not going to see eye to eye on events- so let's keep that in mind and work through each time line item best we can.
Please stick to msm and police reports as it relates to the timeline.

*bump*

cityslick
05-11-2012, 11:12 AM
TM was not a criminal. I could see that being challenged also. jmo

There is already precedent on the SYG where a guy got stabbed simply because he swung a bag of radios at someone, not because he was a criminal. Check the SYG thread.

sleonardelli
05-11-2012, 11:29 AM
Whether GZ is found guilty or not guilty a civil suit is still possible. jmo

There's still a potential fed civil rights case.

Concerned Papa
05-12-2012, 07:33 AM
Looks like the "Francis Show" was on again in part 2 from WJLA.

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/05/only-on-7-what-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-might-have-seen-that-night-75899.html

The video has a short look at the back sidewalk area after dark:

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMNight.jpg

If that body was down half a football field away, as indicated by Attorney O'Mara, witness "John" has got me wondering about what he claimed to have seen.

LambChop
05-12-2012, 07:45 AM
Looks like the "Francis Show" was on again in part 2 from WJLA.

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/05/only-on-7-what-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-might-have-seen-that-night-75899.html

The video has a short look at the back sidewalk area after dark:

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMNight.jpg

If that body was down half a football field away, as indicated by Attorney O'Mara, witness "John" has got me wondering about what he claimed to have seen.

It would stand to reason that the red might be visible more so in that little bit of light than the gray or black. But the fact it was dark would make it harder to make out what exactly was going on, only that there were two on the ground. TM's body should be a matter of record because LE is suppose to measure to the nearest permanent marker which could have been the water meter, post from a porch or the tree. So his exact location should be know if LE did their job. jmo

sleonardelli
05-12-2012, 11:22 AM
Looks like the "Francis Show" was on again in part 2 from WJLA.

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/05/only-on-7-what-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-might-have-seen-that-night-75899.html

The video has a short look at the back sidewalk area after dark:

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMNight.jpg

If that body was down half a football field away, as indicated by Attorney O'Mara, witness "John" has got me wondering about what he claimed to have seen.

Maybe they should recreate this scene and see if "John" could really tell the "red jacket". He could've seen GZ after the gunshot and imposed that memory on the memory of the scuffle.

LambChop
05-12-2012, 11:43 AM
Sometimes it's what people see afterwards that they project into their statements because of outcome of the events. People tend to be more honest when they have to swear to it. jmo

Elley Mae
05-12-2012, 12:14 PM
Looks like the "Francis Show" was on again in part 2 from WJLA.

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/05/only-on-7-what-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-might-have-seen-that-night-75899.html

The video has a short look at the back sidewalk area after dark:

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMNight.jpg

If that body was down half a football field away, as indicated by Attorney O'Mara, witness "John" has got me wondering about what he claimed to have seen.

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSFB/2012/2/26/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA
Sanford Florida conditions Feb 26, 2012
sunrise and sunset

Actual Time 6:53 AM EST 6:22 PM EST
Civil Twilight 6:29 AM EST 6:46 PM EST
Nautical Twilight 6:02 AM EST 7:13 PM EST
Astronomical Twilight 5:34 AM EST 7:41 PM EST


I don't know if using a picture that was taken at what appears to be 11:08 at night and comparing that to what can be seen at approximately 7:15 jmo

LambChop
05-12-2012, 01:43 PM
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KSFB/2012/2/26/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA
Sanford Florida conditions Feb 26, 2012
sunrise and sunset

Actual Time 6:53 AM EST 6:22 PM EST
Civil Twilight 6:29 AM EST 6:46 PM EST
Nautical Twilight 6:02 AM EST 7:13 PM EST
Astronomical Twilight 5:34 AM EST 7:41 PM EST


I don't know if using a picture that was taken at what appears to be 11:08 at night and comparing that to what can be seen at approximately 7:15 jmo

It looks like the time on the news and maybe not when the video was taken. jmo

Elley Mae
05-12-2012, 01:52 PM
It looks like the time on the news not when the video was taken. jmo

Unless we have the actually video instead of a screen shot of a screen shot its a tough call. jmo

LambChop
05-12-2012, 01:55 PM
Unless we have the actually video instead of a screen shot of a screen shot its a tough call. jmo

When I watched it up thread I thought it was a video. I know they put that little station id down in the corner and it usually has the time of the broadcast. The newspeople have the same emblem on them at 11:07pm. So that is what it is. I would hope they would have taken this video after the same amount of time it would have been after the sun went down. jmo

Elley Mae
05-12-2012, 02:13 PM
Looks like the "Francis Show" was on again in part 2 from WJLA.

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/05/only-on-7-what-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-might-have-seen-that-night-75899.html

The video has a short look at the back sidewalk area after dark:

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMNight.jpg

If that body was down half a football field away, as indicated by Attorney O'Mara, witness "John" has got me wondering about what he claimed to have seen.

I can not see or find a video in this. idk maybe I'm doing something wrong.

LambChop
05-12-2012, 02:23 PM
I can not see or find a video in this. idk maybe I'm doing something wrong.

Elley, it's Papa's 102 up above for the original link.

Elley Mae
05-12-2012, 03:01 PM
Elley, it's Papa's 102 up above for the original link.

When I go to the link it is just the article, no video, sorry you miss understood.

Concerned Papa
05-12-2012, 03:24 PM
When I go to the link it is just the article, no video, sorry you miss understood.

Elley, I don't know what to say. The link below is where the screen shot posted with it comes from:

Looks like the "Francis Show" was on again in part 2 from WJLA.

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/05/only-on-7-what-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-might-have-seen-that-night-75899.html

The video has a short look at the back sidewalk area after dark:

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMNight.jpg

If that body was down half a football field away, as indicated by Attorney O'Mara, witness "John" has got me wondering about what he claimed to have seen.

LambChop
05-12-2012, 03:26 PM
When I go to the link it is just the article, no video, sorry you miss understood.

Now that is weird. lol

Reader
05-12-2012, 05:34 PM
This was posted by lauriej in the news thread...is it the one you all are looking for?

--video includes comment from o'mara------as well as a shot of his law office and the place next door to it that he's in the process of buying as a "base of operations".


http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/05...ght-75899.html

Only on 7: What Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman might have seen that night
By Scott Thuman
May 12, 2012 - 12:01 am


Quote:
In an investigation you will only see on ABC7 News, Scott Thuman gives us a closer look at the gated community in Sanford, Florida where George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin.

He shows us what they might have seen that cold, dark, rainy night.

Reader
05-12-2012, 05:40 PM
Sorry, when I tried that link again myself it didn't work, but went to the main page and got this one and it has the video, hope it works....I did watch it before....


http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/05/only-on-7-what-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-might-have-seen-that-night-75899.html

AJ Noiter
05-14-2012, 04:53 PM
Papa (and anyone else that might be interested): Off topic for here, but there's not really a thread dedicated to recreating the scene. Do you have any opinions on the height of the houses? I've come up with a figure of approximately 23ft based on a few things. I'm working on recreating the scene for a "virtual walkthrough" like you might see in some trials.

Also, if anyone is interested in assisting with this shoot me a message. Maybe if there's enough interest we can get a separate thread for it.

Concerned Papa
05-14-2012, 05:53 PM
Papa (and anyone else that might be interested): Off topic for here, but there's not really a thread dedicated to recreating the scene. Do you have any opinions on the height of the houses? I've come up with a figure of approximately 23ft based on a few things. I'm working on recreating the scene for a "virtual walkthrough" like you might see in some trials.

Also, if anyone is interested in assisting with this shoot me a message. Maybe if there's enough interest we can get a separate thread for it.

Probably not important, but if you mean wall height, 23' might be a little bit high.

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMScaleHeight.png

It's certainly not definitive proof of anything, but the floor plan layout for "John's" unit says the porch is 10' wide. If so, I measure the distance as 1 and 3/8", IOW, a scale would be 1 and 3/8" = 10'.

I measure the height at 2 and 13/16" placing the height at about 20' 5" +/-.

AJ Noiter
05-14-2012, 06:55 PM
Probably not important, but if you mean wall height, 23' might be a little bit high.

It's certainly not definitive proof of anything, but the floor plan layout for "John's" unit says the porch is 10' wide. If so, I measure the distance as 1 and 3/8", IOW, a scale would be 1 and 3/8" = 10'.

I measure the height at 2 and 13/16" placing the height at about 20' 5" +/-.

I hadn't thought about the floor plans. Do you happen to have the location of those floorplans available so I can start making models to more exacting measures - it would certainly beat the big blocks I'm currently using lol.

LambChop
05-14-2012, 07:02 PM
Probably not important, but if you mean wall height, 23' might be a little bit high.

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMScaleHeight.png

It's certainly not definitive proof of anything, but the floor plan layout for "John's" unit says the porch is 10' wide. If so, I measure the distance as 1 and 3/8", IOW, a scale would be 1 and 3/8" = 10'.

I measure the height at 2 and 13/16" placing the height at about 20' 5" +/-.

Not sure this will help because they did not say which direction but in an interview MC said TM's body was about 19 foot from her porch. jmo

Concerned Papa
05-14-2012, 07:08 PM
I hadn't thought about the floor plans. Do you happen to have the location of those floorplans available so I can start making models to more exacting measures - it would certainly beat the big blocks I'm currently using lol.

I don't know if this will help or not, but the floor plan I've been using for "John" came from this real estate sales site:

http://www.407re.com/RetreatatTwinLakes

AJ Noiter
05-14-2012, 07:35 PM
I don't know if this will help or not, but the floor plan I've been using for "John" came from this real estate sales site:

http://www.407re.com/RetreatatTwinLakes

That is exactly what I was looking for, thanks a lot!

Just K
05-14-2012, 07:44 PM
RE: the WJLA screenshot, taken on dark rainy night:

It appears as if this video was shot at a time when several people had porch lights on.

By 7:15 PM on February 26th, 2012 (East Coast Winter Lighting) it would have been DARK. Sunset was at 6:23 PM almost a full hour before the shooting and it was raining and little to no moonlight.
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=867&month=2&year=2012&obj=sun&afl=-11&day=1

More than one witness stated that there was ONLY ONE PORCH LIGHT ON at the time of the altercation and ultimate shooting.

It was even darker than this WJLA video portrays. John could have only seen the details that he describes if he were right there, outside, possibly with his flashlight.

IMO, John may have been the other man with a flashlight and GZ was the other. BUT, neighbors report seeing the Flashlights come on after the gunshot.

AJ Noiter
05-15-2012, 01:06 AM
RE: the WJLA screenshot, taken on dark rainy night:

It appears as if this video was shot at a time when several people had porch lights on.

By 7:15 PM on February 26th, 2012 (East Coast Winter Lighting) it would have been DARK. Sunset was at 6:23 PM almost a full hour before the shooting and it was raining and little to no moonlight.
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=867&month=2&year=2012&obj=sun&afl=-11&day=1

More than one witness stated that there was ONLY ONE PORCH LIGHT ON at the time of the altercation and ultimate shooting.

It was even darker than this WJLA video portrays. John could have only seen the details that he describes if he were right there, outside, possibly with his flashlight.

IMO, John may have been the other man with a flashlight and GZ was the other. BUT, neighbors report seeing the Flashlights come on after the gunshot.

Sunset is defined as the time that the center (not the "top" or "bottom") of the sphere produced by the sun is 0° off the horizon. As indicative of the sun's "top" still being above horizon, it's not "dark." "Dark" does not happen until after Astronomical Twilight which is when the sun's center has gone below 18° below the horizon. This time period (Astronomical Twilight) is when Mr. Martin was pronounced deceased.

This is exactly why I posted the information I did back on the first page. "Sunset", "Sunrise", "Dusk", "Dawn", etc are too generic.

AngelWings444
05-15-2012, 01:18 AM
Since there is no discussion in the "Scene Recreation" thread, I will ask it here. AJ - thank you for all the hard work you are putting into this, but what exactly are you doing? Are you doing your own recreation like the State did with GZ? Doing stuff similar to what Papa has done? Will you be using evidence released?

Sorry for the OT or if you have covered it prior to my question. Thanks in advance.

AJ Noiter
05-15-2012, 01:35 AM
Since there is no discussion in the "Scene Recreation" thread, I will ask it here. AJ - thank you for all the hard work you are putting into this, but what exactly are you doing? Are you doing your own recreation like the State did with GZ? Doing stuff similar to what Papa has done? Will you be using evidence released?

Sorry for the OT or if you have covered it prior to my question. Thanks in advance.

No worries and it's fine to discuss/ask questions/etc about it in the thread, I just didn't want evidence and debate about the evidence to come into play with it.

Being that we're "web sleuths" we can't really go to the scene and that's where this program will come in. All it will be is a program that you can run where you can go to the scene for whatever purpose you may have. Maybe you'd like a better idea of what it looks like from a human's perspective as you're walking the same path that Mr. Martin or Mr. Zimmerman did. Maybe you'd like to get a better idea of how long it would've taken Mr. Martin to run home if he had gone straight there. Maybe you want to put yourself in Mr. Martin's shoes and try to find spots where he could have hidden while Mr. Zimmerman was looking for you.

As for things that would be displayed that could be considered evidence, the only thing that I've considered is a landmark where Mr. Martin's body was laying - no human outline or anything like that, something like a little flag or something like that. I am open for suggestions though so feel free to post with your ideas!

And for clarification, you can discuss in that thread.. I just don't want people to go into it debating things that belong in other threads. Know what I mean? For example, I'm sure Concerned Papa will (hopefully) tell me how off my headings and dimensions are. As long as the discussion is about improving something with the software so it can be released sooner I don't care what is discussed there :)

Just K
05-15-2012, 01:37 AM
Sunset is defined as the time that the center (not the "top" or "bottom") of the sphere produced by the sun is 0° off the horizon. As indicative of the sun's "top" still being above horizon, it's not "dark." "Dark" does not happen until after Astronomical Twilight which is when the sun's center has gone below 18° below the horizon. This time period (Astronomical Twilight) is when Mr. Martin was pronounced deceased.

This is exactly why I posted the information I did back on the first page. "Sunset", "Sunrise", "Dusk", "Dawn", etc are too generic.
Exactly, I saw your post but I disagree with the assumption that it was not dark. We disagree. I know exactly how dark it is at 7:15 PM EST in late February...for many reasons which I will not state here... I know without a doubt how dark it was that night at 7:15 PM EST. And, it was raining and there was no discernible moonlight, per the witnesses. It was so dark at 7:17 PM that one witness thought GZ was black.

Concerned Papa
05-17-2012, 01:43 PM
I am bringing this post from the FBI thread for timeline related comments.

~Snipped For Specific Timeline Response~

We will find out more with the discovery files and the 7-11 and clubhouse video will be particularly helpful but this what I've read so far.

1)TM left 7-11 at 6:30 at the latest and it was 0.8 miles away. If he had just walked straight home he would have made it back before GZ even saw him.

2)It's not till 58 seconds into GZ's 911 call that he says TM is coming towards him. Looking at a map of the area and where GZ was parked and the clubhouse distance TM should have already been passing GZ at that point if he had been walking at a regular speed. Maybe TM wasn't walking home at that point and had taken shelter under the awning by the clubhouse (as Crump seemed to suggest) and there is certainly nothing at all criminal about that but what happens next is very important.

3)TM focuses on GZ and approaches his vehicle. Keep in mind that GZ's call starts off with TM being (likely) more then 200 feet away and GZ didn't anticipate TM walking up on his vehicle. Now maybe GZ is really so dumb that he didn't realize he parked directly in the path of the person he was watching but it's also possible that what he described was accurate and that TM had come to check him out.

4)According to GZ TM not only approaches his vehicle he even circles it. That's some pretty weird behavior and IMO you can hear GZ getting nervous in his call. Basically, at that moment GZ's suspicions were validated. Something was kind of "wrong" with TM. If I thought someone was watching me like GZ was doing I might give them a hard look as I walked past their vehicle but I sure as he'll would never circle it.



I, personally, fail to see the relevance of one inch traveled by Trayvon Martin outside the property confines of The Retreat. The 911 call made by George Zimmerman was connected at 7:09:34 pm. For the first [1:03] of this call, TM was at or near the clubhouse according to GZ.

911 dispatcher: OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?

Zimmerman: That’s the clubhouse.

911 dispatcher: He’s near the clubhouse now?

Zimmerman: Yeah [1:03]

In Zimmerman's response above he continued by saying:

Zimmerman: now he’s coming toward me. [1:03]

Clearly indicating TM had left the clubhouse area and began walking in GZ's direction.

Irregardless of where GZ was parked, TM walked to the point George said the following to the 911 dispatcher:

Zimmerman: He’s running. [2:08]

911 dispatcher: He’s running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman: Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14]

Please notice the image attached below. Between the clubhouse, and where TM seems likely ro have started running, there was 407 feet covered by Trayvon Martin from approximately [1:03] to [2:08] in this 911 call. That's only ONE MINUTE AND FIVE SECONDS.

According to the rate of walking speed in the comment below, it should require 1 minute and 32 seconds to walk this 407 feet:

Thank you for the welcome.

317 feet at 3mph would be 72 seconds. (380 feet would be 86 seconds.)

3mph is 4.4 feet per second.

3mph is just a very rough average for walking speed though, so there is some guesswork involved in the equation since actual speed easily could have been a little slower or faster.

Yet TM covered this distance in 1 minute and 5 seconds according to GZ's statements in the 911 call, clearly indicating a direct, faster than average, purposeful path of movement for TM.

As to this notion of TM "circling" GZ's vehicle, do you realize how many ADDITIONAL feet of neccesary distance coverd in this 1 minute and 5 seconds would be added to the 407 feet?

An average bumper to bumper length for an SUV is 17 feet +/-. The circumference of a 20 foot circle is, pi x diameter, or 3.14 x 20 which equals approximately 63 feet. One lap around GZ's vehicle ALONE would add 14 seconds to the timeline for his movements. THREE LAPS, as some have said, would add 42 seconds.

The bottom line? The path of movement for Trayvon Martin shows NOTHING other than a direct path of travel on his part. He did not tarry, stop, case the houses, OR circle George Zimmerman's vehicle.

It was raining. He was just talking to his girlfriend while headed home.

LambChop
05-17-2012, 01:49 PM
I am bringing this post from the FBI thread for timeline related comments.



I, personally, fail to see the relevance of one inch traveled by Trayvon Martin outside the property confines of The Retreat. The 911 call made by George Zimmerman was connected at 7:09:34 pm. For the first [1:03] of this call, TM was at or near the clubhouse according to GZ.



In Zimmerman's response above he continued by saying:



Clearly indicating TM had left the clubhouse area and began walking in GZ's direction.

Irregardless of where GZ was parked, TM walked to the point George said the following to the 911 dispatcher:



Please notice the image attached below. Between the clubhouse, and where TM seems likely ro have started running, there was 407 feet covered by Trayvon Martin from approximately [1:03] to [2:08] in this 911 call. That's only ONE MINUTE AND FIVE SECONDS.

According to the rate of walking speed in the comment below, it should require 1 minute and 32 seconds to walk this 407 feet:



Yet TM covered this distance in 1 minute and 5 seconds according to GZ's statements in the 911 call, clearly indicating a direct, faster than average, purposeful path of movement for TM.

As to this notion of TM "circling" GZ's vehicle, do you realize how many ADDITIONAL feet of neccesary distance coverd in this 1 minute and 5 seconds would be added to the 407 feet?

An average bumper to bumper length for an SUV is 17 feet +/-. The circumference of a 20 foot circle is, pi x diameter, or 3.14 x 20 which equals approximately 63 feet. One lap around GZ's vehicle ALONE would add 14 seconds to the timeline for his movements. THREE LAPS, as some have said, would add 42 seconds.

The bottom line? The path of movement for Trayvon Martin shows NOTHING other than a direct path of travel on his part. He did not tarry, stop, case the houses, OR circle George Zimmerman's vehicle.

It was raining. He was just talking to his girlfriend while headed home.

It does not appear TM was ever running towards the back gate so at the time GZ said that he was not being truthful. jmo

cityslick
05-17-2012, 02:10 PM
It does not appear TM was ever running towards the back gate so at the time GZ said that he was not being truthful. jmo

How can you tell this? GZ lost TM once TM got in the cut through. How would you know that TM did not sprint through the cut through between house, toward the back gate (and also his house)?

Concerned Papa
05-17-2012, 02:24 PM
How can you tell this? GZ lost TM once TM got in the cut through. How would you know that TM did not sprint through the cut through between house, toward the back gate (and also his house)?

I don't disagree that we have little information about what happened after TM headed toward that back gate and his residence.

However, 100% of his every step was witnessed by GZ from the clubhouse till he turned down that back sidewalk. The point I'm making is, I don't see any time being spent in "casing the houses", "circling the vehicle", or anything other than a purposeful, deliberate path of movement to the spot "where the sidewalks meet".

LambChop
05-17-2012, 02:34 PM
GZ was parked on Twin Trees. Heading towards the back gate would mean TM headed down Twin Trees and GZ claims to have lost TM at the cut through. With GZ that close behind him I would not blame TM for hiding until he felt he had lost GZ instead of making a run for it. It's all open back there and he would have been an open target for anyone with a gun. jmo

wowitsdark
05-17-2012, 02:51 PM
I don't disagree that we have little information about what happened after TM headed toward that back gate and his residence.

However, 100% of his every step was witnessed by GZ from the clubhouse till he turned down that back sidewalk. The point I'm making is, I don't see any time being spent in "casing the houses", "circling the vehicle", or anything other than a purposeful, deliberate path of movement to the spot "where the sidewalks meet".

My assumption would be that whatever behavior GZ believed to be suspicious happened prior to his making the phone call. It's what prompted the call.

What is known about the clubhouse? Is it open all the time? Only for special events? Was it open for use at the time TM was spotted in the vicinity? Or was it locked up and dark, making TM's being there part of what seemed 'off' about his presence?

ETA: Where is it that we heard about 'circling the vehicle'? From GZ himself, or is it something someone he talked to said as a 2nd hand story? My experience is that even good and honest people, when repeating stories they were told, assume they have an accurate picture in their minds but may not really have it all correct.

KateNY
05-17-2012, 05:45 PM
'circling the vehicle'

http://southflorida.sun-sentinel.com/news/os-trayvon-martin-circles-george-zimmerman-20120503,0,5322374.story?page=2

Source: Zimmerman says Trayvon circled his SUV, frightened him

Zimmerman never told the dispatcher he was speaking to that the teen was circling his vehicle

~snips

At one point, about halfway through the four-minute call, he told the dispatcher, "Now he's just staring at me. … Now he's coming towards me. He's got his hand in his waistband. … He's coming to check me out."

Trayvon then disappeared,

At an April 20 bond hearing in Sanford, Dale Gilbreath, an investigator for Special Prosecutor Angela Corey, testified that Zimmerman told authorities he was frightened because Trayvon circled him while he sat in his SUV.

Concerned Papa
05-22-2012, 07:32 AM
Remember this part of Robert Zimmerman's account of his son's movements and actions leading up to the encounter with TM?

ZIMMERMAN: When the dispatcher said we know longer need you to do that, and George acknowledged OK. He no longer knew where Trayvon was.

So he continued walking down the sidewalk directly in front of him to the next street to get an address.

He got an address.

He was walking back to his vehicle.

Trayvon came from his left side

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2012/04/05/exclusive-george-zimmermans-father-defends-son-trayvon-martin-shooting?page=2#ixzz1vb1YkhW6

I noticed this front view pic of 2861 Retreat View in the doc dump. 2861 is the end unit adjacent to the sidewalk RZ says George was walking on at "the next street":

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMAddress1.png

If George was actually getting an address, he should have had no trouble or lost time because it's well illuminated and in a direct line of sight from the end of the sidewalk at "the next street".

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TMTimeDistance-1.jpg

Just K
05-22-2012, 11:53 AM
GZ, leaves out details.

He says TM came at him from his left, BUT GZ may have shined his flashlight into TM's eyes, virtually blinding him for an instance.

If he approached TM, shined his light in TM's eyes and/or grabbed TM and TM shoved him off GZ could still say TM came at him.

BUT, he would be leaving out all of the instigating actions that MIGHT HAVE lead TM to come at GZ.

I want to know if TM pushed off or away from GZ.
I want to know if GZ's DNA is on either of TM's elbows, knees, or bottom of his shoe. I believe GZ grabbed TM and TM shoved off and started to get away but then GZ got up and came after him with the gun drawn.

cmsg2002
05-23-2012, 03:15 PM
I apologize in advance if this has been posted elsewhere within this thread, but I just came across this a few mins. ago.

It shows Zimmerman fired 1 minute, 57 seconds after he hung up.

This being from a timeline developed by SPD based on dispatcher calls, etc.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-21/news/os-trayvon-sanford-police-timeline-20120521_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-timeline-investigator-chris-serino

1 min, 57 seconds, IMO, is not alot of time considering GZ exited his vehicle, walked or ran in the direction he had last seen TM, located TM, exchanged words with TM, had a 'life threatening' physical altercation/scuffle with TM...and ultimately shooting TM. 1 min. 57 seconds.....makes one think very hard and long about this whole case.

KateNY
05-23-2012, 11:52 PM
Concerned Papa >

hope you don't mind, I swiped a pic from your post22 and fiddled with it

Would it fit in the timeline IF GZ did in fact go down to that street for the addy on the front of the blgds , and continue on down that street,, then cut through between the buildings to the back sidewalk where TM was, to cut him off. Looks like there is 2 places where GZ could cut through.

(looks like bushes between those bldgs, someone could get all scratched up)

see the red line, for proposed GZ path

Concerned Papa
05-24-2012, 12:52 AM
I apologize in advance if this has been posted elsewhere within this thread, but I just came across this a few mins. ago.

It shows Zimmerman fired 1 minute, 57 seconds after he hung up.

This being from a timeline developed by SPD based on dispatcher calls, etc.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-21/news/os-trayvon-sanford-police-timeline-20120521_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-timeline-investigator-chris-serino

1 min, 57 seconds, IMO, is not alot of time considering GZ exited his vehicle, walked or ran in the direction he had last seen TM, located TM, exchanged words with TM, had a 'life threatening' physical altercation/scuffle with TM...and ultimately shooting TM. 1 min. 57 seconds.....makes one think very hard and long about this whole case.

Thanks. I hadn't seen this before. So the SPD is now giving us a "timeline", eh? IMO, this is nothing more than a blatant attempt, by the same police force who let George Zimmerman walk in the first place, to erase some of the time discrepancy problems of Zimmerman's storyline that I have been pointing out from the beginning of this case.

In a timeline included in evidence documents released last week, Sanford police spelled out down to the second, what happened the night George Zimmerman fatally shot Trayvon Martin, based on time-stamped calls to their dispatch center.

It shows Zimmerman fired 1 minute, 57 seconds after he hung up.

*1911:12 - Call received from George Zimmerman reporting suspicious person

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-21/news/os-trayvon-sanford-police-timeline-20120521_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-timeline-investigator-chris-serino

Attached below is Event Report # 20120571656 for Zimmerman's call. Please note that the call was placed and CONNECTED at 19:09:34, NOT 19:11:12 used as the beginning point of their "timeline".

19:11:12 is clearly shown as the time of the dispatcher's creation of the first entry into this Event Report. Anyway you analyze the call times, the 4 minute and 7 second call was received and connected at 19:09:34 and ended at 19:13:41, with the shot being fired at 19:17:20, a full 4:39 later.

1917:20 - Shot fired; screams from Zimmerman cease

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-21/news/os-trayvon-sanford-police-timeline-20120521_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-timeline-investigator-chris-serino

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history.html#document/p44

Concerned Papa
05-24-2012, 12:57 AM
Concerned Papa >

hope you don't mind, I swiped a pic from your post22 and fiddled with it

Would it fit in the timeline IF GZ did in fact go down to that street for the addy on the front of the blgds , and continue on down that street,, then cut through between the buildings to the back sidewalk where TM was, to cut him off. Looks like there is 2 places where GZ could cut through.

(looks like bushes between those bldgs, someone could get all scratched up)

see the red line, for proposed GZ path

First of all, feel free to use and/or modify any of the images I put in this forum. I'm just trying to figure out the truth.

Yes, clearly the additional distance you are suggesting he could have walked would eliminate some of the time discrepancy problem within his storyline.

Concerned Papa
05-24-2012, 11:33 AM
This Sanford Police Department "timeline" is easily proven as false. It amounts to nothing more than a blatant attempt to deceive and/or coverup their own failure to recognize the huge flaws in the stated timeline of George Zimmerman's acts on 2/26/2012.

From the article linked below, note the time these people say the call was received AND these key points:


The time shown when Zimmerman said TM was running.


The time shown when the call ended.

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TM911Call4.png

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TM911Call5.png

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-21/news/os-trayvon-sanford-police-timeline-20120521_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-timeline-investigator-chris-serino

The problem for the Sanford Police Department's ruse is the Dispatcher for the call didn't work for them, and instead worked for the Seminole County Sheriff's Department and kept a very detailed log of the call:

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad257/Papa813_bucket/TM911Call2.png

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/327330-george-zimmerrman-911-call-history.html#document/p44

Go to ANY recording of the call or time marked transcript and note the run time of a few key events underlined in red above.


GZ told the dispatcher TM started running at [2:08] after the call began.


GZ said he would wait at the mailboxes at [3:43] after the call began.


Why are these points important? Look at the time shown on the SEMINOLE COUNTY report. If the call started at 19:11:12 as stated by the Sanford Police Department's timeline, how did the Seminole County Dispatcher know Trayvon was running at 19:11:59 instead of the 19:13:19 shown on the Sanford Police fairy tale?

To further verify the Seminole County report's log time as beginning at 19:09:34 instead of the Sanford Police Department's time of 19:11:59, add the run time of "waiting at the mailboxes" to 19:09:34 and compare it to the dispatcher's log. Add 3:43 + 19:09:34 and you get 19:13:17.

There's no way this false beginning time for the SPD's time line is just an "OOPSIE". There people were clearly taking information readily available to them and attempting to distort the facts of time to fit what they knew, or certainly should have known, was a serious flaw in George Zimmerman's stated path of movement and subsequent timeline of events.

Good thing the Orlando Sentinel caught it:

*The Seminole County Sheriff's Office, which handled the call, reported it came in at 1909:34.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-21/news/os-trayvon-sanford-police-timeline-20120521_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-timeline-investigator-chris-serino

I'm betting the US Justice Department will also before it's all over.

cmsg2002
05-24-2012, 12:56 PM
damn....that does not look good for the SFD. Can't imagine whoever would have thought it would be a good idea to put out a false timeline...just makes matters that much worse for them.

also, maybe I'm not reading it correctly, but I couldn't tell from the report then exactly when Seminole indicates the shot was fired? Or per their timeline, exactly how much time passed between initial call and the shot being fired? Apologize in advance if someone else has already done this?

gxm
05-24-2012, 01:02 PM
IMO, the timeline is one of the most confusing aspects of this case. It seems to me there's an issue with synchronicity of the various time devices. And I'm not sure that it will ever snap into place.

JMO, OMO, and MOO

gxm
05-24-2012, 01:07 PM
This Sanford Police Department "timeline" is easily proven as false. It amounts to nothing more than a blatant attempt to deceive and/or coverup their own failure to recognize the huge flaws in the stated timeline of George Zimmerman's acts on 2/26/2012.

From the article linked below, note the time these people say the call was received AND these key points:


The time shown when Zimmerman said TM was running.


The time shown when the call ended.



The problem for the Sanford Police Department's ruse is the Dispatcher for the call didn't work for them, and instead worked for the Seminole County Sheriff's Department and kept a very detailed log of the call:



Go to ANY recording of the call or time marked transcript and note the run time of a few key events underlined in red above.


GZ told the dispatcher TM started running at [2:08] after the call began.


GZ said he would wait at the mailboxes at [3:43] after the call began.


Why are these points important? Look at the time shown on the SEMINOLE COUNTY report. If the call started at 19:11:12 as stated by the Sanford Police Department's timeline, how did the Seminole County Dispatcher know Trayvon was running at 19:11:59 instead of the 19:13:19 shown on the Sanford Police fairy tale?

To further verify the Seminole County report's log time as beginning at 19:09:34 instead of the Sanford Police Department's time of 19:11:59, add the run time of "waiting at the mailboxes" to 19:09:34 and compare it to the dispatcher's log. Add 3:43 + 19:09:34 and you get 19:13:17.

There's no way this false beginning time for the SPD's time line is just an "OOPSIE". There people were clearly taking information readily available to them and attempting to distort the facts of time to fit what they knew, or certainly should have known, was a serious flaw in George Zimmerman's stated path of movement and subsequent timeline of events.

Good thing the Orlando Sentinel caught it:



I'm betting the US Justice Department will also before it's all over.

It looks like that document has the log notations out of sequence too. Strange.

JMO, OMO, and MOO

Concerned Papa
05-24-2012, 01:44 PM
It looks like that document has the log notations out of sequence too. Strange.

JMO, OMO, and MOO

I'm not sure what you mean. It's read from the bottom up. What are you seeing that appears out of sequence?

gxm
05-24-2012, 01:56 PM
I'm not sure what you mean. It's read from the bottom up. What are you seeing that appears out of sequence?

Yes, that makes sense! But where's the 19:09… is the whole thing 2 minutes off? And why is that extra call (from another day) on there? I think I just don't know how to read these things.

Concerned Papa
05-24-2012, 02:22 PM
Yes, that makes sense! But where's the 19:09… is the whole thing 2 minutes off? And why is that extra call (from another day) on there? I think I just don't know how to read these things.

Here's all that's really important in this deal. According to this "timeline" put out by the Sanford Police, the call began at 19:11:12 which is military time for 7:11:12 pm. What's false about that beginning time is the fact that, according to the Seminole County Sheriff's Dispatcher's log, the call actually began at 19:09:34 or 7:09:34 pm.

If you're curious about the actual time for ANY part of the 911 call's sequence, go to YouTube and watch the run time at the bottom of the video. Add that to the true beginning time of 7:09:34 pm, and you can have the actual clock time for that particular event.

For example, you and I both have heard the voice of the dispatcher saying "We don't need you to do that". Watch a video and you'll find that the run time at the bottom will show +/- [2:26]. To get the real clock time add that to the start time of 7:09:34 and you will see that those words were actually spoken at 7:12:00 pm. For military time comparison add 12 hours to that and the time would be 19:12:00 for that event.

What's so wrong about this Sanford Police timeline is that all the times are skewed by their falsely representing that the call started almost 2 minutes later than it actually did. Their start time was the time shown by the dispatcher of when the log's first entry was created, NOT when the call began.

Think about it, on any 911 call the dispatcher is going to have to talk to the caller for a period of time to get the "lay of the land" in regards to what the call is about before they have any information to allow them to create the first entry.

LambChop
05-24-2012, 02:49 PM
Here's all that's really important in this deal. According to this "timeline" put out by the Sanford Police, the call began at 19:11:12 which is military time for 7:11:12 pm. What's false about that beginning time is the fact that, according to the Seminole County Sheriff's Dispatcher's log, the call actually began at 19:09:34 or 7:09:34 pm.

If you're curious about the actual time for ANY part of the 911 call's sequence, go to YouTube and watch the run time at the bottom of the video. Add that to the true beginning time of 7:09:34 pm, and you can have the actual clock time for that particular event.

For example, you and I both have heard the voice of the dispatcher saying "We don't need you to do that". Watch a video and you'll find that the run time at the bottom will show +/- [2:26]. To get the real clock time add that to the start time of 7:09:34 and you will see that those words were actually spoken at 7:12:00 pm. For military time comparison add 12 hours to that and the time would be 19:12:00 for that event.

What's so wrong about this Sanford Police timeline is that all the times are skewed by their falsely representing that the call started almost 2 minutes later than it actually did. Their start time was the time shown by the dispatcher of when the log's first entry was created, NOT when the call began.

Think about it, on any 911 call the dispatcher is going to have to talk to the caller for a period of time to get the "lay of the land" in regards to what the call is about before they have any information to allow them to create the first entry.

And another consideration is that it was not a 911 call, it was a call going into a non-emergency line to a dispatcher. jmo

Concerned Papa
05-24-2012, 03:18 PM
And another consideration is that it was not a 911 call, it was a call going into a non-emergency line to a dispatcher. jmo

Pffffttt......I know it's a non emergency line....takes too long to type, LOL.

LambChop
05-24-2012, 04:15 PM
Pffffttt......I know it's a non emergency line....takes too long to type, LOL.

Oh, no, I didn't mean that. lol What I mean was his call could have been docked in at 7:09 but he did not start his report because it could have been on hold or was being transferred to dispatch. Maybe that is the difference, I don't know. I didn't even notice you typed 911. Went right over my head. jmo

FasHawks8
05-24-2012, 04:34 PM
Oh, no, I didn't mean that. lol What I mean was his call could have been docked in at 7:09 but he did not start his report because it could have been on hold or was being transferred to dispatch. Maybe that is the difference, I don't know. I didn't even notice you typed 911. Went right over my head. jmo

I was also wondering if the time discrepancy could be expalined by being put on hold or transferred. I have never called the non-emergency police line, just curious if callers are ever put on hold. Obviously 911 wouldn't, but GZ didn't call 911.

LambChop
05-24-2012, 05:30 PM
Problem is that's almost 2 minutes. And GZ starts off that TM is at the clubhouse walking towards him (gf states he stopped to put on his hood). So where was TM when GZ became suspicious of him. It had to be before TM arrived at the clubhouse. The call started almost 2 minutes prior and TM supposedly just came off the street. So what made GZ suspicious??? jmo

Concerned Papa
05-24-2012, 05:52 PM
I was also wondering if the time discrepancy could be expalined by being put on hold or transferred. I have never called the non-emergency police line, just curious if callers are ever put on hold. Obviously 911 wouldn't, but GZ didn't call 911.

No, it doesn't have anything to do with the call coming in not being put through. Let me show you why.

Notice the entry on the log where it says "SUBJECT NOW RUNNING TOWARDS BACK ENTRANCE OF COMPLEX"? Check any transcript or vid out there and notice the running time for this part of the conversation:

Zimmerman: Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you would go left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left.

He’s running. [2:08]

911 dispatcher: He’s running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman: Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14]

911 dispatcher: OK, which entrance is that he’s headed towards?

Zimmerman: The back entrance. [ 2:22]

Add [2:22] to the noted connection time of the call of 19:09:34 and you will have a military time of 19:11:56, or 7:11:56 pm, when GZ said that to the dispatcher.

Now look at the time shown on the log as to when this part of the call is noted....three seconds later. There's much we don't know as fact about this case, but one thing we do know is how long it took, for this part of the conversation between Zimmerman and the dispatcher to occur, AFTER the call began. We've all heard it.

There's no way this false timeline put out by the SPD can be explained as a delay in connection or placed on hold, etc.

FasHawks8
05-24-2012, 06:53 PM
Papa,

Thanks for the detailed response. Very helpful.

Murdock
05-24-2012, 07:03 PM
Where is this other SPD timeline? Orlando Sentinel says it was part of last week's document release. Was it part of the documents released to the public? I can't find it.