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JBean
04-29-2012, 08:00 PM
IMO,this is going to be one of the most critical parts of the case. There is a lot of disagreement as to whether George Z was truly injured or not.

I do believe he had some injuries-but as to the extent and severity I am not convinced.

I understand that he does not necessarily have to be critically injured or anything for his defense to hold up-but we have been told that he was badly injured so that is what the story is going to be.

Let's move the discussion regarding Zimmerman's injuries to this thread.

I know this is a hot topic so please do your best to be respectful of one another's points of view.

octobermoon
04-29-2012, 08:15 PM
What bothers me about this pic, is that he never once grabbed his bleeding head. Maybe I am just weird but I always grab my toe when I stub it. Or my elbow/funny bone when I hit it. But this picture clearly shows no such attempt to protect or staunch the bleeding.

If someone had just banged my head I would have instinctively placed my hands on the injury.

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTMyfwY-7nbPHkNIG7oM7HbvwgC1L6y1VJ7uCvpeRMBd8xw2QLM

Link

http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_george_zimmerman_head_dm_120419_wmain.jpg

princesspjs
04-29-2012, 08:17 PM
Recent pictures of both the front and right side of GZ's head.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/George-Zimmermans-booking-photo-via-AFP-615x345.jpg

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/George-Zimmermans-booking-photo-via-AFP-615x345.jpg

JBean
04-29-2012, 08:17 PM
please don't forget links to any pictures! thanks guys.

LolaMoon08
04-29-2012, 08:31 PM
What bothers me about this pic, is that he never once grabbed his bleeding head. Maybe I am just weird but I always grab my toe when I stub it. Or my elbow/funny bone when I hit it. But this picture clearly shows no such attempt to protect or staunch the bleeding.

If someone had just banged my head I would have instinctively placed my hands on the injury.

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTMyfwY-7nbPHkNIG7oM7HbvwgC1L6y1VJ7uCvpeRMBd8xw2QLM

Link

http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_george_zimmerman_head_dm_120419_wmain.jpg

What bothers me about this picture is that I've bled worse from cutting my legs while shaving! This is not a picture of a man's head that was repeatedly slammed into the concrete.

MOO

Adrienne37
04-29-2012, 08:35 PM
Just wanted to add that Zimmerman would have what is described as road rash if his head were repeatedly slammed into concrete. You can do a Google search on road rash and select images to get a very good idea of what this type of injury would look like. I won't link because there are some graphic photos there. You will see a major difference between the "injuries" that Zimmerman has versus a true case of road rash.


~jmo~

cherishtoo
04-29-2012, 08:36 PM
What bothers me about this picture is that I've bled worse from cutting my legs while shaving! This is not a picture of a man's head that was repeatedly slammed into the concrete.

MOO

What bothers me is the sudden recovery from "male pattern baldness". MOO

octobermoon
04-29-2012, 08:39 PM
What bothers me about this picture is that I've bled worse from cutting my legs while shaving! This is not a picture of a man's head that was repeatedly slammed into the concrete.

MOO

:floorlaugh:

Me too, that area around the ankle is a @#$%@ JMO ;)

princesspjs
04-29-2012, 08:40 PM
Front shot of GZ the night of the shooting after saying he sustained a broken nose. No blood visible on the shirt or jacket.
imo, jmo, moo

http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/shared/npr/styles/card/nprshared/201203/149596588.jpg
http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/shared/npr/styles/card/nprshared/201203/149596588.jpg

LolaMoon08
04-29-2012, 08:48 PM
Front shot of GZ the night of the shooting after saying he sustained a broken nose. No blood visible on the shirt or jacket.
imo, jmo, moo

http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/shared/npr/styles/card/nprshared/201203/149596588.jpg
http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/shared/npr/styles/card/nprshared/201203/149596588.jpg

I know! So weird since he was supposed to be choking on so much blood that was rushing down his throat through his nasal cavity. I would expect for him to have coughed some of that blood up?

moo

princesspjs
04-29-2012, 08:49 PM
What bothers me about this pic, is that he never once grabbed his bleeding head. Maybe I am just weird but I always grab my toe when I stub it. Or my elbow/funny bone when I hit it. But this picture clearly shows no such attempt to protect or staunch the bleeding.

If someone had just banged my head I would have instinctively placed my hands on the injury.

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTMyfwY-7nbPHkNIG7oM7HbvwgC1L6y1VJ7uCvpeRMBd8xw2QLM

Link

http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_george_zimmerman_head_dm_120419_wmain.jpg
What bothers me about this photo is WTH is someone taking picture of blood rather than the wound(s). Head wounds just bleed heavily even when the wound is insignificant.
http://www.cigna.com/individualandfamilies/health-and-well-being/hw/medical-topics/how-to-stop-bleeding-from-a-minor-head-wound-sig39875spec.html
Minor cuts on the head often bleed heavily because the face and scalp have many blood vessels close to the surface of the skin.
http://www.ehow.com/how_2286260_treat-bleeding-from-minor-head.html
Head wounds tend to bleed a lot more than wounds on other parts of the body, as there are several blood vessels in the head between the scalp and the skin
Do we know who took that picture and why they didn't photograph the actual wound(s)??

LolaMoon08
04-29-2012, 08:52 PM
What bothers me about this photo is WTH is someone taking picture of blood rather than the wound(s). Head wounds just bleed heavily even when the wound is insignificant.
http://www.cigna.com/individualandfamilies/health-and-well-being/hw/medical-topics/how-to-stop-bleeding-from-a-minor-head-wound-sig39875spec.html

http://www.ehow.com/how_2286260_treat-bleeding-from-minor-head.html

Do we know who took that picture and why they didn't photograph the actual wound(s)??

Or why that person's first reaction was to photograph George's head and not help the kid lying on the ground dying? George was up, moving around, and making a phone call. He was fine! Trayvon was not!

MOO

octobermoon
04-29-2012, 08:53 PM
What bothers me about this photo is WTH is someone taking picture of blood rather than the wound(s). Head wounds just bleed heavily even when the wound is insignificant.
http://www.cigna.com/individualandfamilies/health-and-well-being/hw/medical-topics/how-to-stop-bleeding-from-a-minor-head-wound-sig39875spec.html

http://www.ehow.com/how_2286260_treat-bleeding-from-minor-head.html

Do we know who took that picture and why they didn't photograph the actual wound(s)??

I haven't read/heard who took the pic, other than it was a neighbor. FT? maybe? He seems to be in the middle of all this somehow. JMO MOO IMO

princesspjs
04-29-2012, 08:53 PM
I know! So weird since he was supposed to be choking on so much blood that was rushing down his throat through his nasal cavity. I would expect for him to have coughed some of that blood up?

moo
Wow - It's amazing that he was able to keep so clean with all of that going on!

IMO, JMO, MOO

Adrienne37
04-29-2012, 08:53 PM
What bothers me about this photo is WTH is someone taking picture of blood rather than the wound(s). Head wounds just bleed heavily even when the wound is insignificant.
http://www.cigna.com/individualandfamilies/health-and-well-being/hw/medical-topics/how-to-stop-bleeding-from-a-minor-head-wound-sig39875spec.html

http://www.ehow.com/how_2286260_treat-bleeding-from-minor-head.html

Do we know who took that picture and why they didn't photograph the actual wound(s)??

We've had Joe Oliver state that it was the police who took the photo with an iPhone and Frank Taaffe claiming it was a neighbor who took the picture.


~jmo~

LolaMoon08
04-29-2012, 08:55 PM
We've had Joe Oliver state that it was the police who took the photo with an iPhone and Frank Taaffe claiming it was a neighbor who took the picture.


~jmo~

Either way, it was someone who knew George, as George told this person to call his wife.

MOO

princesspjs
04-29-2012, 09:11 PM
What bothers me about this picture is that I've bled worse from cutting my legs while shaving! This is not a picture of a man's head that was repeatedly slammed into the concrete.

MOO

:floorlaugh:

Me too, that area around the ankle is a @#$%@ JMO ;)
EXACTLY! The few inches above that ankle bone!?!? How can a cut that you can't even see bleed so much that I think I might bleed out?!

The blood makes it look so dramatic but...wounds....I need to see the wounds before I can believe that these were any worse than what my children would come home from the playground with.

imo, jmo, moo

princesspjs
04-29-2012, 09:15 PM
We've had Joe Oliver state that it was the police who took the photo with an iPhone and Frank Taaffe claiming it was a neighbor who took the picture.


~jmo~

Honestly, in the back of my mind (so I guess that would be IMO) I am thinking that it may be a police photo. It would go right along with the, again IMO, ridiculously incomplete investigation this appears to have been from the very start.

IMO, JMO, MOO

elementary
04-29-2012, 09:17 PM
Either way, it was someone who knew George, as George told this person to call his wife.

MOO

If it is George in the pic and he's on the phone, then why didn't he dial his wife himself? Is he talking to someone else?

princesspjs
04-29-2012, 09:19 PM
If it is George in the pic and he's on the phone, then why didn't he dial his wife himself? Is he talking to someone else?
Daddy?

IMO, JMO, MOO

LambChop
04-29-2012, 09:19 PM
If it is George in the pic and he's on the phone, then why didn't he dial his wife himself? Is he talking to someone else?

Dad??

princesspjs
04-29-2012, 09:20 PM
Dad??

Hehe:rocker:

LambChop
04-29-2012, 09:21 PM
I think the problem with the picture is that according to LE's report he was in cuffs at that time????

LambChop
04-29-2012, 09:22 PM
Hehe:rocker:

Great minds think alike.

mercuriod
04-29-2012, 09:22 PM
If it is George in the pic and he's on the phone, then why didn't he dial his wife himself? Is he talking to someone else?

IMO, I am betting that GZ was calling his former magistrate dad, to help him figure a way out of this mess.

princesspjs
04-29-2012, 09:24 PM
I think the problem with the picture is that according to LE's report he was in cuffs at that time????

IMO, it looks like someone else's arm is holding a phone up to GZ's ear.

IMO, JMO, MOO

Emma Peel
04-29-2012, 09:29 PM
What bothers me is the sudden recovery from "male pattern baldness". MOO

yeah, what is that about?

bad camera flash? :waitasec:

PaperDoll
04-29-2012, 09:31 PM
I'm going to repeat myself here, GZ has a head injury, but IMO it's because TM was defending himself from his attacker. TM was STANDING IS OWN GROUND!!! GZ had a gun, TM didn't, to me that speaks volumes. I'm still saddened by this case :(

Kimberlyd125
04-29-2012, 09:32 PM
I think it's safe to say he had a broken nose even though we have not seen pictures of a bloody nose or shirt.

The initial police report said he was bleeding from his nose.

And MO'M made it clear, during the bond hearing, that he has medical records that support the statement that GZ had a broken nose. I do not think he would have said that if he didn't.

JMO

Kimberlyd125
04-29-2012, 09:42 PM
OMARA
Ok. Have you ever had your nose broken?

GILBREATH
No.

OMARA
Have you ever had your nose fractured or broken.

GILBREATH
No.

OMARA
You know that that was an injury that Mr. Zimmerman sustained correct?

GILBREATH
I know that that is an injury that is reported to have sustained. I haven't seen any medical records to indicate that.

OMARA
Have you asked him for them?

GILBREATH
Have I asked him for them? No.

OMARA
Do you want a copy of them?

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html

Adrienne37
04-29-2012, 09:59 PM
OMARA
Ok. Have you ever had your nose broken?

GILBREATH
No.

OMARA
Have you ever had your nose fractured or broken.

GILBREATH
No.

OMARA
You know that that was an injury that Mr. Zimmerman sustained correct?

GILBREATH
I know that that is an injury that is reported to have sustained. I haven't seen any medical records to indicate that.

OMARA
Have you asked him for them?

GILBREATH
Have I asked him for them? No.

OMARA
Do you want a copy of them?

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html

Just because O'Mara states there are medical records, doesn't necessarily mean it's the truth. He's already been caught in a few whacks here recently and for all we know, he could have been waving around his weekly grocery list.



~jmo~

Just K
04-29-2012, 09:59 PM
Or why that person's first reaction was to photograph George's head and not help the kid lying on the ground dying? George was up, moving around, and making a phone call. He was fine! Trayvon was not!

MOO
Or to even approach a man who just shot someone to death and who still had a gun.

highflyer
04-29-2012, 10:00 PM
I think it's safe to say he had a broken nose even though we have not seen pictures of a bloody nose or shirt.

The initial police report said he was bleeding from his nose.

And MO'M made it clear, during the bond hearing, that he has medical records that support the statement that GZ had a broken nose. I do not think he would have said that if he didn't.

JMO


Do not believe his nose was broken on the night he shot Trayvon to death.

IzzyBlanche
04-29-2012, 10:01 PM
I think it's safe to say he had a broken nose even though we have not seen pictures of a bloody nose or shirt.

The initial police report said he was bleeding from his nose.

And MO'M made it clear, during the bond hearing, that he has medical records that support the statement that GZ had a broken nose. I do not think he would have said that if he didn't.
JMO

You may be right. However, in that other Florida case the defense also claimed the victim drowned and that the accused had been sexually abused as a child, without ever IIRC presenting a smidge of evidence that either claim was true.

Claim things with nothing to back them up, that's what defense attorneys do. Otherwise judges would not have to give the admonition that juries cannot consider what the attorneys say--on either side--to be evidence.

JMO etc.

badme102
04-29-2012, 10:01 PM
Just because O'Mara states there are medical records, doesn't necessarily mean it's the truth. He's already been caught in a few whacks here recently and for all we know, he could have been waving around his weekly grocery list.



~jmo~

Not only that but like I mentioned earlier, even IF he had a broken nose, we have no way of knowing where or how that happened, if he didn't seek medical attention AT the scene for said injury.

Just K
04-29-2012, 10:05 PM
I still say that it is possible that GZ hit himself in the head with his flashlight or gun...taking a fingernail size chunk out of his back, right and lower side of his scalp. Either that or TM was clawing his way away from the man with the gun.

IzzyBlanche
04-29-2012, 10:12 PM
When I was a kid back in the Mesozoic era, they came out with a fake blood product called "Vampire Blood."

http://weirdnews.about.com/od/weirdscience/ss/Mail-Order-Mysteries_10.htm

For reasons I cannot now recall, I coveted this product. But when I finally got a tube, I was so disappointed. It didn't look like blood at all, but more like a sort of runny red Jello-like substance.

What bothers me about the picture is that the blood looks like my memories of Vampire Blood, down to the gel appearance.

JMO MOO yada yada.

ETA I've also cut myself shaving my legs countless times since the Mesozoic era, along with suffering from other bodily functions that I will not detail here, but suffice to say I know what real blood looks like and that isn't it. IMO.

I'll allow, however, that perhaps the lighting was bad.

Just K
04-29-2012, 10:14 PM
Something just occurred to me:
Mary C and her roommate both said that GZ had both his hands up to his head. Maybe he grabbed his head, dug his own fingernails into his head and dragged the his fingers back toward his ears.

I wonder if LE took fingernail scrapings from under GZ's nails and if they found his own skin under his own nails?

suzihawk
04-29-2012, 10:19 PM
Something just occurred to me:
Mary C and her roommate both said that GZ had both his hands up to his head. Maybe he grabbed his head, dug his own fingernails into his head and dragged the his fingers back toward his ears.

I wonder if LE took fingernail scrapings from under GZ's nails and if they found his own skin under his own nails?

Good theory. Since LE didn't bother to do a drug or alcohol test on GZ, I think it would be too much to hope or expect they would collect fingernail scrapings from either him or Trayvon. JMO

Just K
04-29-2012, 10:36 PM
Fingers crossed the EMTs took notes. Did GZ have any blood on his hands?

Nova
04-29-2012, 10:46 PM
Just wanted to add that Zimmerman would have what is described as road rash if his head were repeatedly slammed into concrete. You can do a Google search on road rash and select images to get a very good idea of what this type of injury would look like. I won't link because there are some graphic photos there. You will see a major difference between the "injuries" that Zimmerman has versus a true case of road rash.


~jmo~

But--and I am just playing devil's advocate here--if GZ's body were pinned under TM's weight, wouldn't his head have struck the concrete more or less directly, as opposed to laterally, producing road rash?

I admit the story about slipping out from under TM and sliding onto the grass is harder to understand. How does one do that without smearing the blood trails?

Adrienne37
04-29-2012, 10:56 PM
But--and I am just playing devil's advocate here--if GZ's body were pinned under TM's weight, wouldn't his head have struck the concrete more or less directly, as opposed to laterally, producing road rash?

I admit the story about slipping out from under TM and sliding onto the grass is harder to understand. How does one do that without smearing the blood trails?
If someone was repeatedly slamming his head into concrete over and over and over again, the area would look just about like it looks in any photo of road rash. It's certainly not going to look like 2 very small puncture wounds. Additionally, for the area where the puncture wounds are located on Zimmerman's head, it would mean that Trayvon was standing up over him, holding him by his ankles, lifting him up and slamming his head down on the concrete. If Zimmerman were laying on the ground with Trayvon on top slamming his head, the wounds would be about midway down the skull or even lower, not almost at the crown of his head.


~jmo~

LolaMoon08
04-29-2012, 11:25 PM
I think it's safe to say he had a broken nose even though we have not seen pictures of a bloody nose or shirt.

The initial police report said he was bleeding from his nose.

And MO'M made it clear, during the bond hearing, that he has medical records that support the statement that GZ had a broken nose. I do not think he would have said that if he didn't.

JMO

I don't think it's safe to say anything until we see it with our own eyes? I've known lawyers to say things that they can never back up :cough: JB :cough: Yes, even in a court of law.

Why did this photographer only take a picture of his bleeding head and not his bleeding face?

Also, I think I want to make sure that the gun could not have caused GZ's broken nose. I'd like to see if there is a laceration on his nose or if it only bled out from inside his nose.

MOO

LolaMoon08
04-29-2012, 11:28 PM
Fingers crossed the EMTs took notes. Did GZ have any blood on his hands?

I also want to know if George had any defensive wounds! Someone pounding your face and head, I'd think you'd put your hands up to block... at least! Bruises?

MOO

KateNY
04-30-2012, 12:13 AM
The GZ Head Boo-Boo -- who took the pic?


ABC News ...Video April 20
Zimmerman Injuries Seen in Exclusive Photo
~Video shows IPhone time stamp info
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/zimm...death-16178849


Related article
ABC News: Photo taken after Trayvon Martin shooting shows bloody George Zimmerman
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/...hooting/nMdbw/

Sources tell ABC News that investigators have seen the photograph and are aware of the photographer’s story.

The person who took the photograph told ABC News he heard Martin and Zimmerman fighting before the shooting and that after Martin was killed, Zimmerman asked the photographer to call Zimmerman’s wife, allegedly blurting out, “Man, just tell her I shot someone.”

GPS and other data embedded in the photo shows it was taken at the scene with an iPhone just three minutes after the shooting, according to ABC News.




Then we have other commentary from GZ 'constituents'

April 20
First of all, to you, Mr. Taaffe, do you believe it helped George Zimmerman to take the stand today?

TAAFFE: Absolutely. George is being George. Nancy, a couple weeks ago you wanted to see blood on a shirt. Now you have blood on the head. So, America, you have your blood. I`m also going to share with you this, that was a photo of George Zimmerman, and I know who the neighbor was that took it. And he came forward only to support George Zimmerman. And more of our neighbors are coming out --

GRACE: So, I`m taking it to believe --

TAAFFE: Are coming out to support him. They are going to support him.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../20/ng.01.html


March 27
JOE OLIVER, FRIEND OF GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: About his injuries? About his broken nose and about the gashes on the back of his head?

GRACE: Yes.

OLIVER: That they happened. We are efforting, rather, a picture that was taken by one of the police investigators on the scene on an iPhone before George was cleaned up to show the severity of the beating.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../27/ng.01.html


:waitasec:

RANCH
04-30-2012, 12:46 AM
IMO,this is going to be one of the most critical parts of the case. There is a lot of disagreement as to whether George Z was truly injured or not.

I do believe he had some injuries-but as to the extent and severity I am not convinced.

I understand that he does not necessarily have to be critically injured or anything for his defense to hold up-but we have been told that he was badly injured so that is what the story is going to be.

Let's move the discussion regarding Zimmerman's injuries to this thread.

I know this is a hot topic so please do your best to be respectful of one another's points of view.

BBM
The most severe injuries that I've seen reported is a broken nose and a couple of lacerations to the back of his head. Is that considered badly injured? I don't think so. But I do think it could be proof of an assault on GZ if the injuries are documented. JMO.

Kimberlyd125
04-30-2012, 12:46 AM
Do not believe his nose was broken on the night he shot Trayvon to death.

So he broke it after?

Seems very unlikely to me.

Adrienne37
04-30-2012, 12:47 AM
The GZ Head Boo-Boo -- who took the pic?


ABC News ...Video April 20
Zimmerman Injuries Seen in Exclusive Photo
~Video shows IPhone time stamp info
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/zimm...death-16178849


Related article
ABC News: Photo taken after Trayvon Martin shooting shows bloody George Zimmerman
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/...hooting/nMdbw/




Then we have other commentary from GZ 'constituents'

April 20

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../20/ng.01.html


March 27

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../27/ng.01.html


:waitasec:

It seems all these people and the truth are strangers.



~jmo~

Kimberlyd125
04-30-2012, 12:49 AM
You may be right. However, in that other Florida case the defense also claimed the victim drowned and that the accused had been sexually abused as a child, without ever IIRC presenting a smidge of evidence that either claim was true.

Claim things with nothing to back them up, that's what defense attorneys do. Otherwise judges would not have to give the admonition that juries cannot consider what the attorneys say--on either side--to be evidence.

JMO etc.

In that other FL it was during opening statements that JB said that.
It didn't need to be proven. Opening statements are pretty much useless and the "facts" or "claims" don't have to be proven.

JB never offered documentation to support his claims. MO'M did. On official court record.
He has the medical records.

JMO

Kimberlyd125
04-30-2012, 12:51 AM
I don't think it's safe to say anything until we see it with our own eyes? I've known lawyers to say things that they can never back up :cough: JB :cough: Yes, even in a court of law.

Why did this photographer only take a picture of his bleeding head and not his bleeding face?

Also, I think I want to make sure that the gun could not have caused GZ's broken nose. I'd like to see if there is a laceration on his nose or if it only bled out from inside his nose.

MOO

We don't know if the photographer took a photo of GZ's face.
We only know we haven't seen one.

csziggy
04-30-2012, 12:53 AM
Dad??
O/T - Why does that give me an image of that baby on the airplane from the E*Trade ad?
http://youtu.be/mDm6iKH38C0

csziggy
04-30-2012, 12:59 AM
yeah, what is that about?

bad camera flash? :waitasec:

A few threads back (in the original TM series) one of the WS members took pictures of his own close cropped head with and without a flashlight shining on his head. Without the flashlight, you could see the hair and no bald spot. With the flashlight shining on the top of his head, there was a lot of glare which gave the appearance of a bald spot. Hopefully, that WS member will re-post those pictures for comparison.

Given the angle that the flashlight beam seems to be coming from, there may have been two people other than GZ there - one to take the picture and another to hold a flashlight.

Also, the "tactical" flashlight GZ was supposed to have been carrying is called "tactical" because of the very bright light it puts out. If that is what was shining on his head that could explain how bright white the top of GZ's head is, giving the illusion of a bald spot.

IMO, JMO, etc.

TorisMom003
04-30-2012, 02:04 AM
If there were signs of injury on Zimmerman's face wouldn't the person that took the back of the head photo also take one of his face? And if that person sold the back of the head photo to a news org, wouldn't they also go ahead and sell the one of his face? That is if any money changed hands for the photo that was leaked. If no money changed hands then why not just go ahead and give them the face photo as well since it would appear to bolster Zimmerman's claims? I'm thinking that no face photo was taken that night because there was no injury to Zimmerman's face.

MOO

Kimberlyd125
04-30-2012, 02:16 AM
If there were signs of injury on Zimmerman's face wouldn't the person that took the back of the head photo also take one of his face? And if that person sold the back of the head photo to a news org, wouldn't they also go ahead and sell the one of his face? That is if any money changed hands for the photo that was leaked. If no money changed hands then why not just go ahead and give them the face photo as well since it would appear to bolster Zimmerman's claims? I'm thinking that no face photo was taken that night because there was no injury to Zimmerman's face.

MOO

How would blood be coming from an uninjured nose?
He was bleeding from his nose and the back of his head when LE arrived according to the initial report.

TorisMom003
04-30-2012, 02:20 AM
How would blood be coming from an uninjured nose?
He was bleeding from his nose and the back of his head when LE arrived according to the initial report.

I'm not sure that it was Zimmerman's blood on his face. He had his hands on Trayvon after Trayvon was shot. Who's to say the blood didn't get on his hands then and Zimmerman rubbed his nose or something? As I said in my other post, I find it very hard to believe that someone would document the bleeding on the back of the head and not document the bleeding on the face. Then again, maybe they did. Maybe once the EMT cleaned off Zimmerman it was discovered that his face was not in fact injured at all and releasing a photo that showed blood when there was no injury would have been worse for Zimmerman after all.

MOO

ETA: Another thought that I had......I have personally had my nose bleed like someone had punched me in it before. There was no injury, just a nose bleed from sneezing. I also had a nose bleed when I was sweeping the floor once, apparently I got to hot or something and it started bleeding. Just because there is blood does not mean there was a broken nose.

Kimberlyd125
04-30-2012, 07:48 AM
I'm not sure that it was Zimmerman's blood on his face. He had his hands on Trayvon after Trayvon was shot. Who's to say the blood didn't get on his hands then and Zimmerman rubbed his nose or something? As I said in my other post, I find it very hard to believe that someone would document the bleeding on the back of the head and not document the bleeding on the face. Then again, maybe they did. Maybe once the EMT cleaned off Zimmerman it was discovered that his face was not in fact injured at all and releasing a photo that showed blood when there was no injury would have been worse for Zimmerman after all.

MOO

ETA: Another thought that I had......I have personally had my nose bleed like someone had punched me in it before. There was no injury, just a nose bleed from sneezing. I also had a nose bleed when I was sweeping the floor once, apparently I got to hot or something and it started bleeding. Just because there is blood does not mean there was a broken nose.

To believe GZ had no injury to his nose, you would have to dismiss several things.

1) initial report (official document)
2) statements from friends and family
3) statement from MO'M on the official court record advising the detective that he has medical records to back up the claim of a broken nose

Either GZ had a broken nose or there are a lot of people lying on record.

I just don't see it.

Donjeta
04-30-2012, 07:58 AM
IDK...
Did the initial reports say that he had a broken nose? Or just that he was bleeding from the nose?

He could easily have had his nose broken that night but just for the sake of the argument, IMO there could be friends and family and medical personnel completely truthfully testifying to their belief that Zimmerman's nose was broken even if he didn't acquire the injury the way he described it.

Kimberlyd125
04-30-2012, 08:08 AM
IDK...
Did the initial reports say that he had a broken nose? Or just that he was bleeding from the nose?

He could easily have had his nose broken that night but just for the sake of the argument, IMO there could be friends and family and medical personnel completely truthfully testifying to their belief that Zimmerman's nose was broken even if he didn't acquire the injury the way he described it.

Te initial report said he was bleeding from his nose. Then family and friends said he had a broken nose. His father said GZ had a protective cover over his nose the day following the shooting. Many people thought they were lying. Then MO'M said on record at the bond hearing that he has medical records backing up the claim of a broken nose.

To me, when you consider all those things, it tells you GZ's nose was broken on the night of the shooting.

You are right, it does not tell is exactly how the injury occurred.

But my point is, I believe GZ's nose was indeed broken by whatever happened that night.

BiancaS
04-30-2012, 08:14 AM
To believe GZ had no injury to his nose, you would have to dismiss several things.

1) initial report (official document)
2) statements from friends and family
3) statement from MO'M on the official court record advising the detective that he has medical records to back up the claim of a broken nose

Either GZ had a broken nose or there are a lot of people lying on record.

I just don't see it.

IMO, all of the sources cited have lied on other subjects, not hard to believe that there was never a broken nose. If he did have a bloody nose, as others have said, that does not mean it was broken.

Kimberlyd125
04-30-2012, 08:22 AM
IMO, all of the sources cited have lied on other subjects, not hard to believe that there was never a broken nose. If he did have a bloody nose, as others have said, that does not mean it was broken.

I think a lot of people think all those sources have lied.
I've seen no proof of that whatsoever. Especially MO'M.

I believe the fact MO'M stated on court record, that there are medical records, says to ME there are medical records.

That is too easy to prove / disprove.

No way he would say he had them of he didn't IMO.

suzihawk
04-30-2012, 08:24 AM
To believe GZ had no injury to his nose, you would have to dismiss several things.

1) initial report (official document)
2) statements from friends and family
3) statement from MO'M on the official court record advising the detective that he has medical records to back up the claim of a broken nose

Either GZ had a broken nose or there are a lot of people lying on record.

I just don't see it.

1) The SPD has been found to be uncredible. They had their own agenda.
2) See #1
3) There's no evidence MO'M had the medical records. In fact, he says he's received no discovery to date.

Therefore, your conclusion that a lot of people are lying or misleading for the record is true.

JMO MOO

Kimberlyd125
04-30-2012, 08:27 AM
1) The SPD has been found to be uncredible. They had their own agenda.
2) See #1
3) There's no evidence MO'M had the medical records. In fact, he says he's received no discovery to date.

Therefore, your conclusion that a lot of people are lying or misleading for the record is true.

JMO MOO

The medical records would not be in the discovery information.
He said HE has them.

He has his clients medical records.

I'm not sure what that has to do with discovery at all. The state would not be providing them to him. He would be providing them to the state.

suzihawk
04-30-2012, 08:35 AM
The medical records would not be in the discovery information.
He said HE has them.

He has his clients medical records.

I'm not sure what that has to do with discovery at all. The state would not be providing them to him. He would be providing them to the state.

Link please?

He was waving some papers around in the air while questioning the investigator about what he knew. It doesn't mean they were medical records nor did he claim them to be, IIRC.

IMO

waltzingmatilda
04-30-2012, 08:38 AM
Another thought I have on George's nose is that it could have been broken prior to the incident.

My daughter received a broken nose when her horse was spooked. The horse then stopped on a dime, the horses head went back, DD's head went forward and her safety helmet hit the horses head and pushed against her nose. There was blood everywhere on her person when I returned to the barn to pick her up. Took son to pick up a video game he saved for during her lesson and she was still bleeding profusely from her nose when we arrived at the ER over an hr after the accident.... and she had an ice pack on it. Ever since then her nose will bleed if it is bumped but not as badly as the original break.

The absence of blood on GZ's person is what makes me suspicious about it actually being broken the night George killed Trayvon. His appearance sure was pristine in the jailhouse video.

MOO

wm

Kimberlyd125
04-30-2012, 08:38 AM
Link please?

He was waving some papers around in the air while questioning the investigator about what he knew. It doesn't mean they were medical records nor did he claim them to be, IIRC.

IMO

Link to what?

I'm sure you have seen the bond hearing by now.

And, I posted and linked the exchange upthread.

Donjeta
04-30-2012, 08:44 AM
Another thought I have on George's nose is that it could have been broken prior to the incident.

My daughter received a broken nose when her horse was spooked. The horse then stopped on a dime, the horses head went back, DD's head went forward and her safety helmet hit the horses head and pushed against her nose. There was blood everywhere on her person when I returned to the barn to pick her up. Took son to pick up a video game he saved for during her lesson and she was still bleeding profusely from her nose when we arrived at the ER over an hr after the accident.... and she had an ice pack on it. Ever since then her nose will bleed if it is bumped but not as badly as the original break.

The absence of blood on GZ's person is what makes me suspicious about it actually being broken the night George killed Trayvon. His appearance sure was pristine in the jailhouse video.

MOO

wm

I do believe the account of how he was choking on his own blood and swallowing lots of it may have been slightly exaggerated... If there was so much blood in his mouth some of it would likely have stained his clothing as well, and he wouldn't have been yelling for help either if he was choking on blood.

Also, choking and swallowing lots of blood often makes you feel unwell and in such a case you might be likely to want medical attention, more than just a cursory glance by an EMT.

Kimberlyd125
04-30-2012, 08:45 AM
OMARA
Ok. Have you ever had your nose broken?

GILBREATH
No.

OMARA
Have you ever had your nose fractured or broken.

GILBREATH
No.

OMARA
You know that that was an injury that Mr. Zimmerman sustained correct?

GILBREATH
I know that that is an injury that is reported to have sustained. I haven't seen any medical records to indicate that.

OMARA
Have you asked him for them?

GILBREATH
Have I asked him for them? No.

OMARA
Do you want a copy of them?

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1204/20/cnr.02.html


To add to this, coming from the same link...
OMARA
You know that that was an injury that Mr. Zimmerman sustained, correct?

GILBREATH
I know that that is an injury that is reported to have sustained. I haven't seen any medical records to indicate that.

OMARA
Have you asked him for them?

GILBREATH
Have I asked him for them? No.

OMARA
Do you want a copy of them?

GILBREATH
Sure.

OMARA
I'll give them to the state. It's a more appropriate way to do it. If you haven't had them yet, I don't want to cross you on them.


It is obvious MO'M is saying he has the medical records and will give them to the state.

GZ's medical records would not be part of the state's discovery if they never got the records.
MO'M has them. He said he would give them to the state.

LiveLaughLuv
04-30-2012, 08:53 AM
There's no doubt he sustained some injuries which I believe have been embellished...

I still believe the head injury is too high to be from hitting his head repeatedly into the concrete...I still believe, while he was running between the townhomes, he might have hit his head on one of the outside meters...and I also believe if he had been wrestling around with TM on the concrete, he has no other injuries that would make me believe this did occur..and the autopsy on TM will tell it true. TM would have to show signs on his hands indictive of being in a fistfight..the trajectory of the bullet, the closeness of the gun, TM would also have injuries if they both were tumbling about on the concrete.

His nose was not injured bad enough if he turned down the ambulance. My belief is, if he was truly THAT injured a trip that night to the hospital would be more appropriate...Who's to say, after he left the precinct, something else happened to him? I believe he is embellishing so that he appears to be the one who was in fear...so that it's in line with the SYG statute..but he's got another fight to come...

Whatever papers MOM was flailing around, unless from that same night, it holds little meaning for me...GZ has no credibility and credibility is urgently needed if he wants people to believe his account of things...


I don't trust GZ or his family, they lost credibility a while ago, for me...:maddening:

Kimberlyd125
04-30-2012, 09:04 AM
So if the medical records show he had a broken nose, those records are wrong and would mean nothing because he was not taken by ambulance to the hospital from the scene?

Injuries are very often treated later. It does not mean they were not there.

My DD had a broken hand that didn't swell and she never cried. I thought it was nothing. The next day, after it was swollen, we went to the Dr and found out it was broken. She got a cast. I can assure you nothing happened between the initial injury and our trip to the Dr the following day.

IMO if those records show GZ had a broken nose, I feel certain the injury that caused the break happened the night of the shooting.

JMO

Cher352
04-30-2012, 09:08 AM
JMO...Going on record to say I believe that SPD has had the hospital report from the very beginning.

Why... because I saw Chief Lee say so the 3/12 news conference local live feed. It was after the City Manager concluded the new conference and the reporters were starting to leave. A few remained and were still calling out questions. One of them called out a question about asking about whether GZ had medical treatment. Chief Lee walked back over to the podium and stated that they had a copy of the hospital reported that was delivered to them the next day.

Do I have a link? No, I have searched but can't find any video that shows anything once the city manager officially ended the news conference and walked away. Do I think Chief Lee was lying? No, for one thing it would be too easy to prove. Why none of the media that was still there reported this in any of their news reports IDK.

So I also believe Corey's office would have been given that same document but it sounds like the investigator that testified at the hearing had not seen it.

Again this is JMO, IMO, MOO for now.

Kimberlyd125
04-30-2012, 09:12 AM
JMO...Going on record to say I believe that SPD has had the hospital report from the very beginning.

Why... because I saw Chief Lee say so the 3/12 news conference local live feed. It was after the City Manager concluded the new conference and the reporters were starting to leave. A few remained and were still calling out questions. One of them called out a question about asking about whether GZ had medical treatment. Chief Lee walked back over to the podium and stated that they had a copy of the hospital reported that was delivered to them the next day.

Do I have a link? No, I have searched but can't find any video that shows anything once the city manager officially ended the news conference and walked away. Do I think Chief Lee was lying? No, for one thing it would be too easy to prove. Why none of the media that was still there reported this in any of their news reports IDK.

So I also believe Corey's office would have been given that same document but it sounds like the investigator that testified at the hearing had not seen it.

Again this is JMO, IMO, MOO for now.

Maybe they didn't want him to see it.
IMO

I could see the state not wanting to look into anything that would help GZ's self defense claims.

Thank God for defense attorneys IMO.

MO'M will make sure those records are revealed at trial (if there is one).
And I'm sure they will be brought in at the SYG hearing.

LambChop
04-30-2012, 09:18 AM
O/T - Why does that give me an image of that baby on the airplane from the E*Trade ad?
http://youtu.be/mDm6iKH38C0

I don't know but who else was he calling? We don't think he was setting up his paypal account, do we???? He would be calling the only person who would be able to "fix" this problem. If it's his phone, there will be a record of the call. jmo

LambChop
04-30-2012, 09:23 AM
Maybe they didn't want him to see it.
IMO

I could see the state not wanting to look into anything that would help GZ's self defense claims.

Thank God for defense attorneys IMO.

MO'M will make sure those records are revealed at trial (if there is one).
And I'm sure they will be brought in at the SYG hearing.

I believe the investigator would have seen the report from the EMT. Seven minutes after TM was pronounced dead GZ was on his way to headquarters in a cruiser. If Chief Lee is talking about the EMT's report he would have had them the next day. If GZ went to the hospital on his own and it was charged to his medical I believe the Chief would have had to ask for them or asked GZ to provide them to LE. Because of HIPPA not sure they would have automatically been sent to LE. jmo

Cher352
04-30-2012, 09:34 AM
I believe the investigator would have seen the report from the EMT. Seven minutes after TM was pronounced dead GZ was on his way to headquarters in a cruiser. If Chief Lee is talking about the EMT's report he would have had them the next day. If GZ went to the hospital on his own and it was charged to his medical I believe the Chief would have had to ask for them or asked GZ to provide them to LE. Because of HIPPA not sure they would have automatically been sent to LE. jmo

Yes, he stated "was delivered to them the next day" but he didn't say by who, I assumed it was either GZ or someone he delegated the task to....JMO

Adrienne37
04-30-2012, 09:36 AM
I've no doubt at all that if Zimmerman's face were injured in any manner whatsoever that the picture taker would have taken a picture of this as well.


~jmo~

LiveLaughLuv
04-30-2012, 09:37 AM
So if the medical records show he had a broken nose, those records are wrong and would mean nothing because he was not taken by ambulance to the hospital from the scene?

Injuries are very often treated later. It does not mean they were not there.

My DD had a broken hand that didn't swell and she never cried. I thought it was nothing. The next day, after it was swollen, we went to the Dr and found out it was broken. She got a cast. I can assure you nothing happened between the initial injury and our trip to the Dr the following day.

IMO if those records show GZ had a broken nose, I feel certain the injury that caused the break happened the night of the shooting.

JMO

You're not the one arrested and I have no reason to doubt YOU but I truly don't trust GZ or his family...

Did he have corrective surgery?

Did he have a prior injury to his nose?

Was it REINJURED? His nose could be fragile, if he has a prior broken nose...I don't trust him as far as I can spit....and I can't spit far at all....:rocker:

Cher352
04-30-2012, 09:38 AM
Maybe they didn't want him to see it.
IMO

I could see the state not wanting to look into anything that would help GZ's self defense claims.

Thank God for defense attorneys IMO.

MO'M will make sure those records are revealed at trial (if there is one).
And I'm sure they will be brought in at the SYG hearing.

That would be terrible if the SA really operates this way....I hope that is not the case, they should be going for the truth not just a win...JMO

Kimberlyd125
04-30-2012, 09:44 AM
I believe the investigator would have seen the report from the EMT. Seven minutes after TM was pronounced dead GZ was on his way to headquarters in a cruiser. If Chief Lee is talking about the EMT's report he would have had them the next day. If GZ went to the hospital on his own and it was charged to his medical I believe the Chief would have had to ask for them or asked GZ to provide them to LE. Because of HIPPA not sure they would have automatically been sent to LE. jmo

I don't know if LE/The State/The investigator have them or not.

But I do know MO'M says he does and he said he would give them to the state.

I don't think he would lie on record about something so easily proven / disproven.

But, that JMO.

Kimberlyd125
04-30-2012, 09:45 AM
I've no doubt at all that if Zimmerman's face were injured in any manner whatsoever that the picture taker would have taken a picture of this as well.


~jmo~

But we don't know if the picture taker took a picture of GZ's face.
All we know is we have not seen one.

There could be many reasons for that.

We can't just assume that person didn't take one. IMO

Kimberlyd125
04-30-2012, 09:48 AM
You're not the one arrested and I have no reason to doubt YOU but I truly don't trust GZ or his family...

Did he have corrective surgery?

Did he have a prior injury to his nose?

Was it REINJURED? His nose could be fragile, if he has a prior broken nose...I don't trust him as far as I can spit....and I can't spit far at all....:rocker:

We don't know if he had corrective surgery. We have not seen any medical records yet.

We don't know if he had a prior injury to his nose. We have seen no records indicating he did or did not.

Was it reinjured? I have no clue. Even if it was a reinjury, it's still an injury and would not negate the fact that his nose was broken.

I don't know how it got broken or if it was another injury to a fragile nose. All I know is MO'M says he has records regarding the nose. He said it on record during the bond hearing. He said he would give the state those records.
IMO that is very easily proven / disproven so I would see no reason MO'M would lie about that.

JMO

Kimberlyd125
04-30-2012, 09:50 AM
That would be terrible if the SA really operates this way....I hope that is not the case, they should be going for the truth not just a win...JMO

Yes they SHOULD.
But a lot of things about this case looks to me like that state is trying to please the public.

I think that's shady.

JMO

LiveLaughLuv
04-30-2012, 10:14 AM
We don't know if he had corrective surgery. We have not seen any medical records yet.

We don't know if he had a prior injury to his nose. We have seen no records indicating he did or did not.

Was it reinjured? I have no clue. Even if it was a reinjury, it's still an injury and would not negate the fact that his nose was broken.

I don't know how it got broken or if it was another injury to a fragile nose. All I know is MO'M says he has records regarding the nose. He said it on record during the bond hearing. He said he would give the state those records.
IMO that is very easily proven / disproven so I would see no reason MO'M would lie about that.

JMO

BBM

But GZ would...I have no reason to suspect MOM is lying, never said that..but he should be very careful to take GZ's word on it until he can delve deep into that..and even IF GZ did get punched in his face, he deserved it..TM was in fear and is equal in using the SYG defense but he's not here to do that...so the State of Florida will stand up for the only victim, TM...

He shouldn't have kept following TM...I believe it shows a personal vendetta especially after learning his own property, a bicycle was stolen off his porch..so he was determined and did use excessive force on a truly innocent teen and THAT is what this is about for me...he over reacted to a situation that HE, GZ allowed to get out of control...had he just gone back to his vehicle and observed from a distance and didn't get all up close and personal, he'd not be in the position he's in today..

It's all on GZ, his impulse control or lack of impulse control and that I believe his personal vendetta was his drive and determination to not let another get away. His mindset, mentality will be in the forefront, if the State does their prosecution right...the autopsy I believe was the driving force as well as 5 different versions out of GZ's own mouth..time will tell :maddening:

Adrienne37
04-30-2012, 10:19 AM
No doubt at all if there were injuries to Zimmerman's face, they would have been released the same time the photo of the back of his head was released. It was a strategic move on O'Mara's part and in fact, ABC probably paid money for that picture and would have gladly paid money for any others that are available; therefore, that leads me to one conclusion and one conclusion only and that is that there were no injuries to his face suffered at the hands of Trayvon Martin that night.



~jmo~

elementary
04-30-2012, 01:05 PM
That would be terrible if the SA really operates this way....I hope that is not the case, they should be going for the truth not just a win...JMO

Medical records are a slam dunk. If GZ is claiming all this injury in order to use the SYG law, then they are pertinent. If they exist, it's too obvious to sweep under the rug. Of course the SA does not operate in denial. That's ridiculous, IMO. The records are discovery. Both sides will have them sooner or later, if they exist. How could this even be a question?

gxm
04-30-2012, 01:05 PM
What bothers me about this picture is that I've bled worse from cutting my legs while shaving! This is not a picture of a man's head that was repeatedly slammed into the concrete.

MOO

I know I sound like a broken record but let me say one more time: I had my head repeatedly slammed into a hard surface (a tile floor, not a sidewalk) and I did not bleed. IMO, the amount of blood is not important. But clearly, the man was involved in something that made his head bleed, which is consistent with his story.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

gxm
04-30-2012, 01:08 PM
Just wanted to add that Zimmerman would have what is described as road rash if his head were repeatedly slammed into concrete. You can do a Google search on road rash and select images to get a very good idea of what this type of injury would look like. I won't link because there are some graphic photos there. You will see a major difference between the "injuries" that Zimmerman has versus a true case of road rash.


~jmo~

Why would he have road rash? GZ's story isn't that he was dragged across the concrete. Road rash comes from a dragging, or sliding, motion across the surface of concrete or asphalt.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

gxm
04-30-2012, 01:11 PM
No doubt at all if there were injuries to Zimmerman's face, they would have been released the same time the photo of the back of his head was released. It was a strategic move on O'Mara's part and in fact, ABC probably paid money for that picture and would have gladly paid money for any others that are available; therefore, that leads me to one conclusion and one conclusion only and that is that there were no injuries to his face suffered at the hands of Trayvon Martin that night.



~jmo~

Unless, of course, MOM is playing a really well thought game of chess. I'm starting to think he is one smart player.

seattlechiquita
04-30-2012, 02:02 PM
The way I see it, a man whose head was repeatedly slammed into concrete until an inch of wearing diapers for the rest of his life (paraphrasing here) cannot walk on his own.

Adrienne37
04-30-2012, 02:23 PM
The way I see it, a man whose head was repeatedly slammed into concrete until an inch of wearing diapers for the rest of his life (paraphrasing here) cannot walk on his own.

Please don't forget that he was barely conscious and one step away from being spoon fed, oh and not mention that he was almost choking on his own blood.


~jmo~

TorisMom003
04-30-2012, 02:25 PM
Why would he have road rash? GZ's story isn't that he was dragged across the concrete. Road rash comes from a dragging, or sliding, motion across the surface of concrete or asphalt.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

I have seen people fight before. Down on the ground, dirty fighting. I have also seen that BOTH of those fighting are putting up a fight to the point that BOTH are moving around alot. IF Zimmerman was having his head bashed into the cement I have no doubt that he would be moving his head in a side to side motion to try and get away. In doing the side to side motion his head would in fact be scraping the cement and cause a road rash type of injury. There is no way in the world that someone will be able to just tell me that those are injuries from having your head bashed on the cement, I will need proof of it and Zimmerman's word means nothing to me at this point.

MOO

badme102
04-30-2012, 03:17 PM
To add to this, coming from the same link...
OMARA
You know that that was an injury that Mr. Zimmerman sustained, correct?

GILBREATH
I know that that is an injury that is reported to have sustained. I haven't seen any medical records to indicate that.

OMARA
Have you asked him for them?

GILBREATH
Have I asked him for them? No.

OMARA
Do you want a copy of them?

GILBREATH
Sure.

OMARA
I'll give them to the state. It's a more appropriate way to do it. If you haven't had them yet, I don't want to cross you on them.


It is obvious MO'M is saying he has the medical records and will give them to the state.

GZ's medical records would not be part of the state's discovery if they never got the records.
MO'M has them. He said he would give them to the state.

You're still missing the whole point. Nobody knows WHEN he "broke" his nose or how. Even if he was bleeding from the nose after he killed TM, that means nothing. It doesn't even come close to suggesting his nose was broken that night.

badme102
04-30-2012, 03:23 PM
I know I sound like a broken record but let me say one more time: I had my head repeatedly slammed into a hard surface (a tile floor, not a sidewalk) and I did not bleed. IMO, the amount of blood is not important. But clearly, the man was involved in something that made his head bleed, which is consistent with his story.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

No, it's actually not consistent with his story. Oh, wait! Which story? :waitasec:

He could have dug his own nails into his head. TM could have dug his nails into his head in self defense.
GZ could have slipped on the wet ground and fell while CHASING TM, and hit his own head.
GZ could have smashed his head off a sprinkler, a tree, a bush, a rock, a shovel, a stone, a root from a tree, an empty bottle, can, etc...etc...
I could name things for eternity that are just as POSSIBLE, if not more than GZ's lame story.

LinasK
04-30-2012, 03:30 PM
The way I see it, a man whose head was repeatedly slammed into concrete until an inch of wearing diapers for the rest of his life (paraphrasing here) cannot walk on his own.Please don't forget that he was barely conscious and one step away from being spoon fed, oh and not mention that he was almost choking on his own blood.


~jmo~


Why is George not paralyzed if he was "one hit away from diapers and being spoon-fed for the rest of his life"??? He's walking and talking perfectly fine, amongst being able to perform other bodily functions, IMO!!!

Cher352
04-30-2012, 03:40 PM
It has occurred to me though if they are any inconsistencies in his multiple interviews GZ and MOM will use the head injuries as an excuse for them.

If they did and I was on a jury I might be tended to buy that if the picture we have seen is real and there are any medical records that might support it.

JMO

Kimberlyd125
04-30-2012, 03:41 PM
Why is George not paralyzed if he was "one hit away from diapers and being spoon-fed for the rest of his life"??? He's walking and talking perfectly fine, amongst being able to perform other bodily functions, IMO!!!

As far as I'm aware of, RZ Jr. (brother) is the only one who had ever said anything like this.

Kimberlyd125
04-30-2012, 03:46 PM
You're still missing the whole point. Nobody knows WHEN he "broke" his nose or how. Even if he was bleeding from the nose after he killed TM, that means nothing. It doesn't even come close to suggesting his nose was broken that night.

I'm not missing a point at all.
I'm sure those medical records will shed a lot of light on his injuries.

Including when they likely occurred.

Cher352
04-30-2012, 03:46 PM
No, it's actually not consistent with his story. Oh, wait! Which story? :waitasec:

He could have dug his own nails into his head. TM could have dug his nails into his head in self defense.
GZ could have slipped on the wet ground and fell while CHASING TM, and hit his own head.
GZ could have smashed his head off a sprinkler, a tree, a bush, a rock, a shovel, a stone, a root from a tree, an empty bottle, can, etc...etc...
I could name things for eternity that are just as POSSIBLE, if not more than GZ's lame story.

I personally have a hard time thinking those head injuries could have been caused by fingernails....JMO

Just wondering if we have there are any pictures out there that show either GZ's or TM's hands. Most guys have fairly short nails but I have seen a few men with longer nails.

stilettos
04-30-2012, 03:48 PM
We are never going to be able to clear this issue unless/until a doctor's examination and record is put forth into evidence. Going from that pic is not enough for me. I need to know more about the pic. who took it...exactly when it was take and why. I need to see what a doctor said about said injuries and what treatment was received. I cannot tell anything definative about said injuries from that pic. It could have been taken a week later by his Dad for all I know. (and please don't jump me about convicting a man before trial...I just do not know what happened that night...except that a young man lost his life)

Kimberlyd125
04-30-2012, 03:48 PM
No, it's actually not consistent with his story. Oh, wait! Which story? :waitasec:

He could have dug his own nails into his head. TM could have dug his nails into his head in self defense.
GZ could have slipped on the wet ground and fell while CHASING TM, and hit his own head.
GZ could have smashed his head off a sprinkler, a tree, a bush, a rock, a shovel, a stone, a root from a tree, an empty bottle, can, etc...etc...
I could name things for eternity that are just as POSSIBLE, if not more than GZ's lame story.

The investigator stated the injuries are consistent with his head hitting something hard. That kinda rules out any fingernail scratch theories IMO.

LambChop
04-30-2012, 04:13 PM
Why is George not paralyzed if he was "one hit away from diapers and being spoon-fed for the rest of his life"??? He's walking and talking perfectly fine, amongst being able to perform other bodily functions, IMO!!!

Because we know GZ likes to embellish by the way he described TM. We know it appears he hit his head on something but even SA's investigator said it did not happen the way GZ said according to the evidence they have gather. It could be his nose was fractured and it could have been from TM's head when he landed on top of GZ. It still does not add up to TM jumping GZ from behind at the cut through, nor any of the other versions he has related to his family and LE. It's obvious he was injured we just don't know to what degree and will not until those records are released. Apparently the State feels GZ's injuries were not consistent with his storyline. jmo

gxm
04-30-2012, 04:18 PM
No, it's actually not consistent with his story. Oh, wait! Which story? :waitasec:

He could have dug his own nails into his head. TM could have dug his nails into his head in self defense.
GZ could have slipped on the wet ground and fell while CHASING TM, and hit his own head.
GZ could have smashed his head off a sprinkler, a tree, a bush, a rock, a shovel, a stone, a root from a tree, an empty bottle, can, etc...etc...
I could name things for eternity that are just as POSSIBLE, if not more than GZ's lame story.

Illustrating the problem with this case perfectly: There is no way to know what happened. But GZ's story is the only one we have and he is claiming self defense after being attacked and having his head slammed into the pavement.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

gxm
04-30-2012, 04:21 PM
The way I see it, a man whose head was repeatedly slammed into concrete until an inch of wearing diapers for the rest of his life (paraphrasing here) cannot walk on his own.

I was badly beaten in a similar manner and not only could I walk on my own, I could run on my own—which is what I did after someone finally pulled my attacker off of me. Trust me, the adrenalin was pumping.

kimpage
04-30-2012, 04:52 PM
I just want to add i have had my head slammed on concrete and it looked just like road rash....I have long blond hair and all you could see was blood it was gross..And i did not walk after i was taking to the hospital by EMS and for days if i even stood i could not walk...So GZ claiming his head was repeatedly slammed onto concrete is a lie.....And his nose looked normal when he was walking into the SPD station....IMHO JMHO and all that

seattlechiquita
04-30-2012, 05:22 PM
I just want to add i have had my head slammed on concrete and it looked just like road rash....I have long blond hair and all you could see was blood it was gross..And i did not walk after i was taking to the hospital by EMS and for days if i even stood i could not walk...So GZ claiming his head was repeatedly slammed onto concrete is a lie.....And his nose looked normal when he was walking into the SPD station....IMHO JMHO and all that

I hear you. I play a full contact sport. Any time one of us hits the track with the head (and we wear big azz helmets) we are NOT allowed to move at all until CLEARED by the EMTs.

So this whole thing sounds incredibly fishy. Either it is complete bullyouknowwhat on GZ's part, or the officers at the scene were idiots who let an incredibly injured and possibly concussed man leave without proper medical care.

:moo: and stuff

seattlechiquita
04-30-2012, 05:25 PM
I was badly beaten in a similar manner and not only could I walk on my own, I could run on my own—which is what I did after someone finally pulled my attacker off of me. Trust me, the adrenalin was pumping.

Oh, I believe you. In this context though, it is not as simple as that.
In a contained environment, like a crime scene is supposed to be you don't get to run anywhere. You are kept put until cleared. And if he was cleared, his injuries were minor. :moo:

Adrienne37
04-30-2012, 05:32 PM
Oh, I believe you. In this context though, it is not as simple as that.
In a contained environment, like a crime scene is supposed to be you don't get to run anywhere. You are kept put until cleared. And if he was cleared, his injuries were minor. :moo:

Minor enough that he wasn't even treated in the rescue unit, only in the back of the police car.


~jmo~

gxm
04-30-2012, 05:59 PM
Oh, I believe you. In this context though, it is not as simple as that.
In a contained environment, like a crime scene is supposed to be you don't get to run anywhere. You are kept put until cleared. And if he was cleared, his injuries were minor. :moo:

My point was that one can still walk after one has had the #$%@ beat out of them, in response to the opinion that there is no way GZ could have been standing if he'd really been hurt. I was really hurt and I could walk.

IMO, GZ's injuries may have been minor. Or LE may have acted improperly by not having him taken to the ER and scanned. My position is: I just don't know. What I do know is this: it is very frightening to have your head slammed into a hard surface and, IMO, understandable that someone might overreact in that situation for fear of permanent damage. I don't think deadly force was necessary in this case, but I realize that the law may not agree with me. Legally, GZ may be able to make a claim for either SYG or self defense.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

seattlechiquita
04-30-2012, 06:14 PM
My point was that one can still walk after one has had the #$%@ beat out of them, in response to the opinion that there is no way GZ could have been standing if he'd really been hurt. I was really hurt and I could walk.

IMO, GZ's injuries may have been minor. Or LE may have acted improperly by not having him taken to the ER and scanned. My position is: I just don't know. What I do know is this: it is very frightening to have your head slammed into a hard surface and, IMO, understandable that someone might overreact in that situation for fear of permanent damage. I don't think deadly force was necessary in this case, but I realize that the law may not agree with me. Legally, GZ may be able to make a claim for either SYG or self defense.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

:yes: I don't know for sure either - no one really does since we were not there.

I :moo: think that in a professionally handled contained environment, you should not be just let to decide whether you need medical care or not. Then again, I teach ***********, not forensics lol :P

ynotdivein
04-30-2012, 07:18 PM
<snip>

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTMyfwY-7nbPHkNIG7oM7HbvwgC1L6y1VJ7uCvpeRMBd8xw2QLM

Link

http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_george_zimmerman_head_dm_120419_wmain.jpg

Respectfully snipped for focus.

I have not been around much the last couple of weeks. This is my first time viewing the photo of the back of GZ's head that night. I do seem to see a fairly regularly horizontal wound, from mid-center/left of the upper back of his head wrapping around toward the right, as if he fell and struck his head against an object with a straight edge, perhaps a sidewalk. The straight line is apparent to me. I don't see cuts or abrasions that might be expected from having one's head beat against the sidewalk, and no abrasions, dirt or grass shreds as might be expected if his head were being pounded against either the sidewalk or the grass near the sidewalk.

Donjeta
04-30-2012, 07:22 PM
Do you think that it would be too much to hope for that the EMT's swabbed GZ's wounds for evidence that night?

ynotdivein
04-30-2012, 07:38 PM
Do you think that it would be too much to hope for that the EMT's swabbed GZ's wounds for evidence that night?

Sadly, Donjeta, I kinda do think it would be too much to hope for. But I'm a relentless optimist who expects the best out of people, so am hanging on to hope.

Adrienne37
04-30-2012, 08:01 PM
Zimmerman's father himself stated that the injuries were vertical on the back of his head.



~jmo~

LambChop
04-30-2012, 09:09 PM
Respectfully snipped for focus.

I have not been around much the last couple of weeks. This is my first time viewing the photo of the back of GZ's head that night. I do seem to see a fairly regularly horizontal wound, from mid-center/left of the upper back of his head wrapping around toward the right, as if he fell and struck his head against an object with a straight edge, perhaps a sidewalk. The straight line is apparent to me. I don't see cuts or abrasions that might be expected from having one's head beat against the sidewalk, and no abrasions, dirt or grass shreds as might be expected if his head were being pounded against either the sidewalk or the grass near the sidewalk.

I kept looking at the picture and thinking there was something wrong with it. That is exactly one of the things....no grass clippings because LE said he had some on the back of his jacket. Also Mary C. said GZ put his hands up to his head as if "oh, no". But this blood path seems undisturbed as if he never tried to see if he were bleeding. It had to have hurt and he had to have felt the blood running down his head. The picture just seems odd to me. jmo

csziggy
04-30-2012, 09:54 PM
I don't know but who else was he calling? We don't think he was setting up his paypal account, do we???? He would be calling the only person who would be able to "fix" this problem. If it's his phone, there will be a record of the call. jmo
I agree - I was just trying to lighten the mood.

ynotdivein
05-01-2012, 01:00 AM
I kept looking at the picture and thinking there was something wrong with it. That is exactly one of the things....no grass clippings because LE said he had some on the back of his jacket. Also Mary C. said GZ put his hands up to his head as if "oh, no". But this blood path seems undisturbed as if he never tried to see if he were bleeding. It had to have hurt and he had to have felt the blood running down his head. The picture just seems odd to me. jmo

Lamb, I'm with you, and when I heard MC say he was walking and put his hand or hands on his head, I expected something different. If GZ did crack his head on the edge of the sidewalk, with all the blood trails from that running down, then I can see him later standing and putting his hands to his head in an "oh my god what have i done" gesture without getting TM's blood on himself.

vlpate
05-01-2012, 02:13 AM
I hear you. I play a full contact sport. Any time one of us hits the track with the head (and we wear big azz helmets) we are NOT allowed to move at all until CLEARED by the EMTs.

So this whole thing sounds incredibly fishy. Either it is complete bullyouknowwhat on GZ's part, or the officers at the scene were idiots who let an incredibly injured and possibly concussed man leave without proper medical care.

:moo: and stuff

They didn't let him leave, they took him to the police station. As long as he was coherent and did not want to go to the hospital, they couldn't make him. He was at the station for hours, I'm sure they were observing him for signs of a concussion. JMO

Cher352
05-01-2012, 02:19 AM
Repost from my last week's posting:

This is why I think the blood is not smeared in the photo we have seen.

There are no straight drip lines on the back of his head. If he had been walking around bleeding there should have been lines that ran straight down his scalp.

What I see is that all the lines run down and then break to one side or the other of the center of the back of his head. This makes me think that the head had been clean off just prior to the picture being taken and all the drip lines we see are fresh blood that ran while his head was in a semi tilted down position.

Of course that is just how it appears to me.

KateNY
05-01-2012, 04:16 AM
Dunno? May be smeared a bit, down at the bottum...
you can see his hairline through/under the blood

or his blood is awfully thin

OMHO..

Nova
05-01-2012, 08:22 AM
Illustrating the problem with this case perfectly: There is no way to know what happened. But GZ's story is the only one we have and he is claiming self defense after being attacked and having his head slammed into the pavement.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

And GZ has good reason to lie. Simply because a killer is the only witness left alive does not mean we take his word as gospel.

Nova
05-01-2012, 08:26 AM
Lamb, I'm with you, and when I heard MC say he was walking and put his hand or hands on his head, I expected something different. If GZ did crack his head on the edge of the sidewalk, with all the blood trails from that running down, then I can see him later standing and putting his hands to his head in an "oh my god what have i done" gesture without getting TM's blood on himself.

Has it been speculated anywhere that GZ might have had his hands on his head because he expected the cops to arrive with their guns drawn? I know his gun was back in its holster, but he would have wanted LE to see he wasn't holding a weapon.

Emeralgem
05-01-2012, 08:46 AM
Dunno? May be smeared a bit, down at the bottum...
you can see his hairline through/under the blood

or his blood is awfully thin
OMHO..

The blood on GZ's head reminds me of that fake blood my grandson put on his face last Haloween..JMHO

LiveLaughLuv
05-01-2012, 09:27 AM
I know I sound like a broken record but let me say one more time: I had my head repeatedly slammed into a hard surface (a tile floor, not a sidewalk) and I did not bleed. IMO, the amount of blood is not important. But clearly, the man was involved in something that made his head bleed, which is consistent with his story.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

BBM

Not according to the investigator who took the stand at the bond hearing, which is why the detectives wanted charges and was nixed by Wolfinger..but he did say GZ's story was inconsistant with the evidence...

LambChop
05-01-2012, 10:41 AM
Repost from my last week's posting:

This is why I think the blood is not smeared in the photo we have seen.

There are no straight drip lines on the back of his head. If he had been walking around bleeding there should have been lines that ran straight down his scalp.

What I see is that all the lines run down and then break to one side or the other of the center of the back of his head. This makes me think that the head had been clean off just prior to the picture being taken and all the drip lines we see are fresh blood that ran while his head was in a semi tilted down position.

Of course that is just how it appears to me.

The pictures was taken at 7:19pm. The only officer there at the time was Smith. So who would have wiped his head? SFD had not arrived yet??? jmo

chefmom
05-01-2012, 12:00 PM
I have read that a LE officer took the picture and I have read that a neighbor took the picture. Have I missed if the phone has been identified yet? Do we know yet who it belonged to? And do we know for sure that it wasn't taken on GZ's phone by someone else? TIA

gxm
05-01-2012, 12:30 PM
BBM

Not according to the investigator who took the stand at the bond hearing, which is why the detectives wanted charges and was nixed by Wolfinger..but he did say GZ's story was inconsistant with the evidence...

Did he say that GZ's injuries did not match his story? IIRC, all he said was that there was some inconsistency, he didn't go into detail. Or am I misremembering?

gxm
05-01-2012, 12:34 PM
And GZ has good reason to lie. Simply because a killer is the only witness left alive does not mean we take his word as gospel.

I'm not saying his word is gospel. I'm saying, with the evidence we have to date, there is no way to refute it beyond a reasonable doubt. Maybe the SA has something up her sleeve but so far, IMO, the case for 2nd degree murder against GZ is weak at best.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Desdemona
05-01-2012, 12:54 PM
And GZ has good reason to lie. Simply because a killer is the only witness left alive does not mean we take his word as gospel.And yet, if GZ had been beaten to death (with an untouched gun in his waistband no less), and TM's story was that he had to kill GZ in self-defense, we would be saying he was the one with a reason to lie.

What a conundrum.

Or, if after GZ shot TM that night, TM had survived the gunshot wound, we could compare both of their stories. But alas, the only story we have is GZ's.

IF GZ's story of being attacked and defending himself happens to be true (as his injuries may or may not indicate), he has a very good reason indeed to make us believe that truth; to convince us that it is NOT a lie. Otherwise we will unjustifiably convict him of murder.

You point out that GZ has reason to lie. I point out that this is only true IF GZ is, in fact, lying.

See? Conundrum.

Desdemona
05-01-2012, 12:57 PM
BBM

Not according to the investigator who took the stand at the bond hearing, which is why the detectives wanted charges and was nixed by Wolfinger..but he did say GZ's story was inconsistant with the evidence...Do we have a list of detectives (plural) who wanted charges that night, before the alleged surreptitious meeting with NW? And do we know that the reason "they" allegedly wanted GZ charged was because of inconsistencies between his injuries and his statements/evidence? I have not heard any of this... if you have info, please explain. TIA

JMO

KateNY
05-01-2012, 04:45 PM
Do we have a list of detectives (plural) who wanted charges that night, before the alleged surreptitious meeting with NW? And do we know that the reason "they" allegedly wanted GZ charged was because of inconsistencies between his injuries and his statements/evidence? I have not heard any of this... if you have info, please explain. TIA

JMO

We have this about Det Serino

Trayvon Martin Investigator Wanted Manslaughter Charge
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-charge-george-zimmerman-manslaughter/story?id=16011674#.T6BJrdUZtVs

Snips
The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, multiple sources told ABC News.

But Sanford, Fla., Investigator Chris Serino was instructed to not press charges against Zimmerman............

Serino filed an affidavit on Feb. 26, the night that Martin was shot and killed by Zimmerman, that stated he was unconvinced Zimmerman's version of events.

Need that doc dump ....

Disguiseduser0308
05-01-2012, 06:57 PM
My biggest thing about injuries is that we just don't know how they feel unless they're happening directly to us. I can't extrapolate much, if anything, from the one picture we've seen of GZ's injuries. It might not look like much, but we don't know how it felt in the moment. JMO.

Cher352
05-01-2012, 07:28 PM
The pictures was taken at 7:19pm. The only officer there at the time was Smith. So who would have wiped his head? SFD had not arrived yet??? jmo

Maybe the same person that took the photo???

vlpate
05-02-2012, 04:11 AM
We have this about Det Serino

Trayvon Martin Investigator Wanted Manslaughter Charge
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-investigator-wanted-charge-george-zimmerman-manslaughter/story?id=16011674#.T6BJrdUZtVs

Snips




Need that doc dump ....

Then we have what Serino actually said:
"Police did that night prepare an incident report that lists "manslaughter" as the possible crime being investigated, but in every case in which an officer prepares an incident report, he or she fills in that spot with some crime and statute number to allow the agency to properly report crime statistics to the FBI.

Two weeks ago, during an exclusive interview with the Sentinel, Lee disclosed certain details of the investigation and during that session, attended by Serino and others, Serino said his investigation turned up no reliable evidence that cast doubt on Zimmerman's account – that he had acted in self-defense.

"The best evidence we have is the testimony of George Zimmerman, and he says the decedent was the primary aggressor in the whole event," Serino told the Sentinel March 16. "Everything I have is adding up to what he says."

Possible crime being investigated - key words.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-02/news/os-trayvon-martin-federal-review-justice-letter-20120402_1_chief-bill-lee-federal-review-federal-agency

LambChop
05-02-2012, 08:02 AM
Maybe the same person that took the photo???

LE would never let anyone touch GZ unless it was SFD. Plus GZ was suppose to be in handcuffs at that time???? There is an answer and I'm sure Officer Smith was questioned about this picture. I don't think SA will accept it at face value because someone had to have taken the picture which conflicts with the police report. jmo

LambChop
05-02-2012, 08:09 AM
Then we have what Serino actually said:
"Police did that night prepare an incident report that lists "manslaughter" as the possible crime being investigated, but in every case in which an officer prepares an incident report, he or she fills in that spot with some crime and statute number to allow the agency to properly report crime statistics to the FBI.

Two weeks ago, during an exclusive interview with the Sentinel, Lee disclosed certain details of the investigation and during that session, attended by Serino and others, Serino said his investigation turned up no reliable evidence that cast doubt on Zimmerman's account – that he had acted in self-defense.

"The best evidence we have is the testimony of George Zimmerman, and he says the decedent was the primary aggressor in the whole event," Serino told the Sentinel March 16. "Everything I have is adding up to what he says."

Possible crime being investigated - key words.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-02/news/os-trayvon-martin-federal-review-justice-letter-20120402_1_chief-bill-lee-federal-review-federal-agency

And it's no like Serino was feeling any pressure from the Chief to give that statement after stating that their were inconsistencies in his stories. Wow, shows you there is really a serious problem in that police department. No wonder the Chief stepped down. jmo

Cher352
05-02-2012, 10:34 AM
In case anyone missed this, check out the video included with this article. Interview with a neighbor discussing what he saw of G's head and face injuries the day after the incident. (and no it is not Taffe)

George Zimmerman's neighbor describes his injuries
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/local/033112-George-Zimmerman%27s-neighbor-describes-his-injuries

TorisMom003
05-02-2012, 03:38 PM
So Zimmerman had bandages on the back of his head and his nose the day after he shot Trayvon. Why were there none on him the night of the shooting? Usually a bandage is used to prevent bleeding or to help keep the wound clean. I would think that a bandage would be best applied immediately after receiving the injury instead of hours later deciding to go ahead and put one on. Unless of course one uses the bandages as simply a sign to others that yes, they were injured even if the injuries were not severe enough to require bandages. I also thought that someone, was it Zimmerman Sr?, said that Zimmerman had a protective covering on his nose. Is he considering a bandage the protective covering or is talking about a splint like covering that is commonly used for broken noses?

MOO

zenreaper
05-02-2012, 05:17 PM
So Zimmerman had bandages on the back of his head and his nose the day after he shot Trayvon. Why were there none on him the night of the shooting? Usually a bandage is used to prevent bleeding or to help keep the wound clean. I would think that a bandage would be best applied immediately after receiving the injury instead of hours later deciding to go ahead and put one on. Unless of course one uses the bandages as simply a sign to others that yes, they were injured even if the injuries were not severe enough to require bandages. I also thought that someone, was it Zimmerman Sr?, said that Zimmerman had a protective covering on his nose. Is he considering a bandage the protective covering or is talking about a splint like covering that is commonly used for broken noses?

MOO

So what WOULD convince you that there were injuries? I mean COME ON. No bandages, means no injury, bandages means FAKED to indicate an injury that wasn't there. Police report that there were injuries, well, police report must have been faked. A PICTURE of one of the injuries. Nope, must have been faked, and if not, well, he caused it himself maybe, and where are the pictures of the OTHER injuries.

Lets be honest, you are placing an UNFAIR amount of pressure on GZ to "prove" he was injured, then shooting down EVERY offering that he was injured, NOT with "reason" or investigative techniques, but with UNREASONABLE statements and accusations.

Just K
05-02-2012, 06:51 PM
GZ lies and that has been proven at the bond hearing. GZ tells a story and some take it as fact. But he is the only one here to tell the story and he certainly has a vested interest in the story being believed.

But, really, what has this man done to warrant the blind faith that some people have in him or his word?

LinasK
05-02-2012, 07:19 PM
So what WOULD convince you that there were injuries? I mean COME ON. No bandages, means no injury, bandages means FAKED to indicate an injury that wasn't there. Police report that there were injuries, well, police report must have been faked. A PICTURE of one of the injuries. Nope, must have been faked, and if not, well, he caused it himself maybe, and where are the pictures of the OTHER injuries.

Lets be honest, you are placing an UNFAIR amount of pressure on GZ to "prove" he was injured, then shooting down EVERY offering that he was injured, NOT with "reason" or investigative techniques, but with UNREASONABLE statements and accusations.
What would convince me would be written documentation from either LE or the paramedics accompanied by verified photos that LE took, not some unproven source that could have been photoshopped, or wounds self-inflicted by George after the fact, and not statements from unreliable eyewitness neighbors that saw bandages the next day at a distance!:banghead::banghead::banghead:
The photos that are out there in the media are tabloid-quality material, doesn't prove anything. I wanted verified photos with timestamps that are shown in court!

zenreaper
05-02-2012, 08:18 PM
What would convince me would be written documentation from either LE or the paramedics accompanied by verified photos that LE took, not some unproven source that could have been photoshopped, or wounds self-inflicted by George after the fact, and not statements from unreliable eyewitness neighbors that saw bandages the next day at a distance!:banghead::banghead::banghead:
The photos that are out there in the media are tabloid-quality material, doesn't prove anything. I wanted verified photos with timestamps that are shown in court!

So the police WROTE that he had blood on his nose and the back of his head, and there is a PICTURE of the injury, but because you don't have VERIFICATION that the picture is TIMESTAMPED, you don't believe the police report either? Huh?

LambChop
05-02-2012, 08:37 PM
So the police WROTE that he had blood on his nose and the back of his head, and there is a PICTURE of the injury, but because you don't have VERIFICATION that the picture is TIMESTAMPED, you don't believe the police report either? Huh?

I think the problem with the picture is that at 7:19 when this picture was supposed to have been taken Officer Smith had already reported that he had secured GZ's gun and that he was cuffed and in custody. At 7:19 the second officer was just arriving and preparing to evaluate and give CPR to TM. That's the problem with the picture. One: no one should have been permitted anywhere near the scene once the officer arrived. The officer would have no way of telling if someone would interfer with the crime scene and that is why they try to secure it right away. Two: GZ appears to be uncuffed in this picture. We still have not heard who the person was that took this picture. Why is it such a big secret when there are some valid questions regarding GZ not being in cuffs in this picture at 7:19 when we all know it was reported by the officer that GZ was already cuffed.

Just a lot of unanswered questions for people to want to swallow all in one gulp. It only takes one inconsistencies for people to be on guard about what really might have happened. The story should have been consistent. It should have sounded like the truth when GZ told it to the homocide detective and we know he did not believe GZ. We know now after an investigation that there were inconsistencies, enough to charge him with 2nd degree murder when most of us believed he should have been charged with manslaughter. That's a big leap. jmo

katydid23
05-02-2012, 08:41 PM
GZ lies and that has been proven at the bond hearing. GZ tells a story and some take it as fact. But he is the only one here to tell the story and he certainly has a vested interest in the story being believed.

But, really, what has this man done to warrant the blind faith that some people have in him or his word?

BBM

I will tell you why I am defending GZ so far. I grew up with a defense attorney for a father. And I saw clearly how the public could gang up on someone because of bad publicity, and then take every single thing about that person's life and use it against them, twisting it and distorting it even. It bothers me to this day.

I have said since day one, that I thought GZ deserved to be arrested on the first night and was probably guilty of manslaughter. [ and even though I did say that many times, one poster made a rather snide comment that someone should go back and check if I was lying about that or not. Many thanked her post, so I went back and found my early posts saying that, and posted them. But nobody responded or acknowledged that fact that I was being honest about that.] Which, imo, is an example of how this public piling on works.

But I have seen with my own eyes, defendants who have been treated by the public with great scorn, even unfairly so. And so I have tried like crazy to get people not to jump to the worst conclusions. Like when it began to spread like wildfire that he had shot TM in the back. Or the 'rumor' that O'Mara publicly exposed the girlfriends name on live television at the bond hearing. I don't think it is good for our country right now for people to paint this stupid vigilante with a racist brush. Why help Rev Al create his chosen scenario, that this watchman was a white racist out to kill an innocent child?

Because that is NOT how it happened, imo. And it is unfair to try and paint it like that. GZ was WRONG and deserves to pay the price for his foolish decisions. But for this forum to try and make him out to be someone who called 911 just so he could plan a cold blooded murder? That is not right, imo.

Emeralgem
05-02-2012, 08:41 PM
So the police WROTE that he had blood on his nose and the back of his head, and there is a PICTURE of the injury, but because you don't have VERIFICATION that the picture is TIMESTAMPED, you don't believe the police report either? Huh?

Excuse me but blood on his nose does not necessarily mean it was his blood.. I saw the video of him when he was taken into the police station about 30 minutes after he had shot Trayvon and there wasn't even a bandaid on his head, nor was there any blood on him to be seen..... And at this stage of the game I don't think any of us can trust the SFP to produce anything that we could ever possibly count on as being reliable or truthful... Their ONLY concern at this time is to save their rear ends...JMHO

LinasK
05-02-2012, 08:55 PM
So the police WROTE that he had blood on his nose and the back of his head, and there is a PICTURE of the injury, but because you don't have VERIFICATION that the picture is TIMESTAMPED, you don't believe the police report either? Huh?
That picture is worthless without knowing who took it and when. It could easily have been photoshopped. If George's injuries were so severe, why weren't they documented in detail instead of just releasing him??? According to his brother, George was "one hit away from diapers and being spoon-fed for life". That equals paralysis, none of which George has. George has proven himself to be a liar, and has good motive to lie in this situation, so I believe he was capable of self-inflicting those injuries or getting the photo photoshopped.
Also, where's the photos of his supposedly broken nose???

zenreaper
05-02-2012, 09:08 PM
That picture is worthless without knowing who took it and when. It could easily have been photoshopped. If George's injuries were so severe, why weren't they documented in detail instead of just releasing him??? According to his brother, George was "one hit away from diapers and being spoon-fed for life". That equals paralysis, none of which George has. George has proven himself to be a liar, and has good motive to lie in this situation, so I believe he was capable of self-inflicting those injuries or getting the photo photoshopped.
Also, where's the photos of his supposedly broken nose???

His brother was exagerating, probably in the face of the OVERWHELMING public outcry that his brother was some kind of racist murderer roaming the neighborhood looking to shoot a black kid. And so what if the injurues were NOT that severe? Suppose TM had only hit his head against the sidewalk once or twice? How long does an individual have to be beat on before they respond with force to defend themselves?

As for him injuring himself or photoshopping the picture, you have to be REALISTIC. And amazingly enough, he photoshpped the picture and injured himself in EXACTLY the way the police wrote it up...AMAZING. Come on, aren't you going a bit FAR with this?

LinasK
05-02-2012, 09:26 PM
His brother was exagerating, probably in the face of the OVERWHELMING public outcry that his brother was some kind of racist murderer roaming the neighborhood looking to shoot a black kid. And so what if the injurues were NOT that severe? Suppose TM had only hit his head against the sidewalk once or twice? How long does an individual have to be beat on before they respond with force to defend themselves?

As for him injuring himself or photoshopping the picture, you have to be REALISTIC. And amazingly enough, he photoshpped the picture and injured himself in EXACTLY the way the police wrote it up...AMAZING. Come on, aren't you going a bit FAR with this?
Nope because I don't believe George was beaten at all. :snooty:The Medical Examiner said that there were no bruises whatsoever on Trayvon's knuckles. I think George was in CYA mode for a shooting he did, then it turned out Trayvon wasn't the criminal he thought he was! And for the record, even though I know this is the wrong forum, I do believe George Zimmerman is racist against blacks, IMO!

Lovelymountains
05-02-2012, 09:35 PM
In a recent well known case in Florida, the accused's parents sold photos of the victim to a major network for, it is reported, $250,000. So it would appear there is a considerable pay-off to anyone who can produce a photo which shows a key element of a crime, in this case a photo of the so-called injuries of one George Zimmerman. While protesting that they don't pay for interviews, networks sure as heck do pay for "Licensing" photos. Am I wrong in understanding that this photo was first released to the public by the ABC network? Who took this picture? Was it sold to ABC? When was it taken? Is it even a photo of George Zimmerman? While I am certainly not contending that the photo is a fake, why is the blood not diluted by the rain? What is that straight mark on the bald head and could it have been made by a concrete sidewalk? And the pattern of the "Blood" in a downward path: wouldn't it be less neat if it were the result of having the back of his head repeatedly forced into a sidewalk? And it appears to me that the pattern of baldness in the photo doesn't match that shown in the SPD's surveillance video. And the $200,000 plus suddenly appearing in GZ's PayPal account? I don't know the answer to any of these questions, but if it walks like a duck............IMO, of course.

vlpate
05-02-2012, 09:49 PM
In a recent well known case in Florida, the accused's parents sold photos of the victim to a major network for, it is reported, $250,000. So it would appear there is a considerable pay-off to anyone who can produce a photo which shows a key element of a crime, in this case a photo of the so-called injuries of one George Zimmerman. While protesting that they don't pay for interviews, networks sure as heck do pay for "Licensing" photos. Am I wrong in understanding that this photo was first released to the public by the ABC network? Who took this picture? Was it sold to ABC? When was it taken? Is it even a photo of George Zimmerman? While I am certainly not contending that the photo is a fake, why is the blood not diluted by the rain? What is that straight mark on the bald head and could it have been made by a concrete sidewalk? And the pattern of the "Blood" in a downward path: wouldn't it be less neat if it were the result of having the back of his head repeatedly forced into a sidewalk? And it appears to me that the pattern of baldness in the photo doesn't match that shown in the SPD's surveillance video. And the $200,000 plus suddenly appearing in GZ's PayPal account? I don't know the answer to any of these questions, but if it walks like a duck............IMO, of course.
I think a lot of that $200,000 came from the pictures of GZ when he was younger, I forget the name of the article, but it came out within days of the bond hearing. Casey Anthony received about that much. If you look at many of the Trayvon pictures, the ABC logo is on them - as well as one of Trayvon's relatives. IMO, "exclusives" do not come free. ABC has made a mint in advertising revenue off of this story, $200,000 is a pittance to them.

Matt Guttman is the king of exclusives, for some reason.

JMO

zenreaper
05-02-2012, 09:55 PM
Nope because I don't believe George was beaten at all. :snooty:The Medical Examiner said that there were no bruises whatsoever on Trayvon's knuckles. I think George was in CYA mode for a shooting he did, then it turned out Trayvon wasn't the criminal he thought he was! And for the record, even though I know this is the wrong forum, I do believe George Zimmerman is racist against blacks, IMO!

Wait a minute, the police wrote up the report not long after the shooting occured. At that point, GZ had no reason to NOT believe TM wasn't the "criminal he thought he was". Matter of fact, GZ knew NOTHING about TM other than the fact that he had shot him. So why would he then go to the trouble of injuring himself to cover for it? That makes NO sense. As for the last part, I just don't know what to say about that. You talk about no coming to a conclusion without evidence, then you make a blantant accusation about a person's CORE belief staructure, with no evidence.

And lets be honest, suppose a black person attacks a white supremecist. Does the white supremecist deserve any less protection under the law? Are white people ALLOWED to attack black racists? Of course not.

AngelWings444
05-02-2012, 10:04 PM
I think a lot of that $200,000 came from the pictures of GZ when he was younger, I forget the name of the article, but it came out within days of the bond hearing. Casey Anthony received about that much. If you look at many of the Trayvon pictures, the ABC logo is on them - as well as one of Trayvon's relatives. IMO, "exclusives" do not come free. ABC has made a mint in advertising revenue off of this story, $200,000 is a pittance to them.

Matt Guttman is the king of exclusives, for some reason.

JMO
The bond hearing was 4/20/2012, the "bloody head picture" was released 4/20/2012. Same day. :waitasec: I think it was the "bloody head picture" that ABC paid a fortune to obtain, not the young GZ pics. JMO

The problem I have with the "bloody head picture" is, it's the back of his head, no pics of his face, broken nose etc..it's always looked so hinky to me. But, that is JMO.

vlpate
05-02-2012, 10:05 PM
Nope because I don't believe George was beaten at all. :snooty:The Medical Examiner said that there were no bruises whatsoever on Trayvon's knuckles. I think George was in CYA mode for a shooting he did, then it turned out Trayvon wasn't the criminal he thought he was! And for the record, even though I know this is the wrong forum, I do believe George Zimmerman is racist against blacks, IMO!

He said there were no marks on him at all, IIRC.

suzihawk
05-02-2012, 10:09 PM
He said there were no marks on him at all, IIRC.

Except for the gunshot wound inflicted by a hollow point bullet.

vlpate
05-02-2012, 10:23 PM
The bond hearing was 4/20/2012, the "bloody head picture" was released 4/20/2012. Same day. :waitasec: I think it was the "bloody head picture" that ABC paid a fortune to obtain, not the young GZ pics. JMO

The problem I have with the "bloody head picture" is, it's the back of his head, no pics of his face, broken nose etc..it's always looked so hinky to me. But, that is JMO.

Prelude to a Shooting - April 25. I doubt the head picture belonged to Zimmerman or his family. I know it's been insinuated that Taaffe may have taken it, but I don't believe GZ would have been asking other people to call his wife if Taaffe (sp?), was there. Quite possible the money, or part of it, from the head shot was donated.

zenreaper
05-02-2012, 10:25 PM
He said there were no marks on him at all, IIRC.

Why would there be? Per GZ, he only HIT him once, then was slamming his head on the ground. Holding a head and slamming it would not create a bruise, and hitting someone once and DYING soon thereafter will not necessarily cause a bruise to form.

vlpate
05-02-2012, 10:28 PM
Except for the gunshot wound inflicted by a hollow point bullet.

Did he say that? I don't recall, that would be stating the obvious.

AngelWings444
05-02-2012, 10:29 PM
Prelude to a Shooting - April 25. I doubt the head picture belonged to Zimmerman or his family. I know it's been insinuated that Taaffe may have taken it, but I don't believe GZ would have been asking other people to call his wife if Taaffe (sp?), was there. Quite possible the money, or part of it, from the head shot was donated.
:waitasec: I'm confused. So, you think if there was $$ received from the "bloody head picture", it was donated? To whom? The defense fund?

I believe GZ (or someone on his behalf) received $ from the bloody head shot and the pictures from his youth. There were only 54 donors to the website. I think ABC was one of the huge "donors." :moo:

vlpate
05-02-2012, 10:32 PM
I think the problem with the picture is that at 7:19 when this picture was supposed to have been taken Officer Smith had already reported that he had secured GZ's gun and that he was cuffed and in custody. At 7:19 the second officer was just arriving and preparing to evaluate and give CPR to TM. That's the problem with the picture. One: no one should have been permitted anywhere near the scene once the officer arrived. The officer would have no way of telling if someone would interfer with the crime scene and that is why they try to secure it right away. Two: GZ appears to be uncuffed in this picture. We still have not heard who the person was that took this picture. Why is it such a big secret when there are some valid questions regarding GZ not being in cuffs in this picture at 7:19 when we all know it was reported by the officer that GZ was already cuffed.

Just a lot of unanswered questions for people to want to swallow all in one gulp. It only takes one inconsistencies for people to be on guard about what really might have happened. The story should have been consistent. It should have sounded like the truth when GZ told it to the homocide detective and we know he did not believe GZ. We know now after an investigation that there were inconsistencies, enough to charge him with 2nd degree murder when most of us believed he should have been charged with manslaughter. That's a big leap. jmo

I've asked before, to no avail unless I missed it, do you happen to know where the time-stamped picture can be found? TIA

vlpate
05-02-2012, 10:34 PM
:waitasec: I'm confused. So, you think if there was $$ received from the "bloody head picture", it was donated? To whom? The defense fund?

I believe GZ (or someone on his behalf) received $ from the bloody head shot and the pictures from his youth. There were only 54 donors to the website. I think ABC was one of the huge "donors." :moo:

No, I think the picture used in Prelude to a Shooting were paid for by Reuters. Maybe on the head shot, I don't know.

Yes, donated to the defense fund.....

AngelWings444
05-02-2012, 10:36 PM
Prelude to a Shooting - April 25. I doubt the head picture belonged to Zimmerman or his family. I know it's been insinuated that Taaffe may have taken it, but I don't believe GZ would have been asking other people to call his wife if Taaffe (sp?), was there. Quite possible the money, or part of it, from the head shot was donated.
The bond hearing and the release of the "bloody head picture" were on same date, April 20, 2012.

The article you reference, "Prelude to a Shooting" was April 25, 2012.

I believe the $$ from ABC, came from the "bloody head picture" released on 4/20, not from article you reference. JMO

Can't wait to see the accounting records from the donation site for GZ.

vlpate
05-02-2012, 10:39 PM
Why would there be? Per GZ, he only HIT him once, then was slamming his head on the ground. Holding a head and slamming it would not create a bruise, and hitting someone once and DYING soon thereafter will not necessarily cause a bruise to form.

I would think there would have been defensive wounds if TM was trying to get away, trying to defend himself from GZ. Some theorize GZ was holding onto TM, on top of him - IMO, there'd be something.

zenreaper
05-02-2012, 10:46 PM
I would think there would have been defensive wounds if TM was trying to get away, trying to defend himself from GZ. Some theorize GZ was holding onto TM, on top of him - IMO, there'd be something.

Per the person who prepped the body for burial, there were none. Oddly enough, the pro TM folks are using this to "prove" that TM didn't attack GZ. Not really understanding that, but it is what it is. :waitasec:

ILikeToBendPages
05-02-2012, 10:52 PM
What bothers me about this pic, is that he never once grabbed his bleeding head. Maybe I am just weird but I always grab my toe when I stub it. Or my elbow/funny bone when I hit it. But this picture clearly shows no such attempt to protect or staunch the bleeding.

If someone had just banged my head I would have instinctively placed my hands on the injury.

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTMyfwY-7nbPHkNIG7oM7HbvwgC1L6y1VJ7uCvpeRMBd8xw2QLM

Link

http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_george_zimmerman_head_dm_120419_wmain.jpg

It's the pattern of the blood that gets me. Why the difference in how the blood flows in two different directions? Shouldn't it all flow in the same direction or am I missing something?

zenreaper
05-02-2012, 10:55 PM
It's the pattern of the blood that gets me. Why the difference in how the blood flows in two different directions? Shouldn't it all flow in the same direction or am I missing something?

Well, to begin with, he didn't grab his head because he was trying to grab his GUN. Also, the different blood flows could EASILY be explained by the movement of his head during the attack.

vlpate
05-02-2012, 11:54 PM
What bothers me about this pic, is that he never once grabbed his bleeding head. Maybe I am just weird but I always grab my toe when I stub it. Or my elbow/funny bone when I hit it. But this picture clearly shows no such attempt to protect or staunch the bleeding.

If someone had just banged my head I would have instinctively placed my hands on the injury.

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTMyfwY-7nbPHkNIG7oM7HbvwgC1L6y1VJ7uCvpeRMBd8xw2QLM

Link

http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/ht_george_zimmerman_head_dm_120419_wmain.jpg

How could you know he didn't grab his head? This is an isolated shot. Mary Cutcher and/or her roommate said he was holding his head.

vlpate
05-02-2012, 11:56 PM
The bond hearing and the release of the "bloody head picture" were on same date, April 20, 2012.

The article you reference, "Prelude to a Shooting" was April 25, 2012.

I believe the $$ from ABC, came from the "bloody head picture" released on 4/20, not from article you reference. JMO

Can't wait to see the accounting records from the donation site for GZ.

Perhaps you are right, either way, I doubt he knew about that money the day of the hearing - especially if the proceeds from the head shot were donated to his defense fund.

AngelWings444
05-03-2012, 12:14 AM
Per the person who prepped the body for burial, there were none. Oddly enough, the pro TM folks are using this to "prove" that TM didn't attack GZ. Not really understanding that, but it is what it is. :waitasec:

BBM - just because some have an opinion one way or the other, doesn't mean they should be labeled here at WS. IMO - this is not a pro/con forum, it's a victim's forum.

The autopsy should should show whether there were defensive wounds or not. According to the lead investigator, GZ's injuries were not consistent with his story (stories).

AngelWings444
05-03-2012, 12:20 AM
Perhaps you are right, either way, I doubt he knew about that money the day of the hearing - especially if the proceeds from the head shot were donated to his defense fund.
I believe FT made the rounds a couple of days before the bond hearing, making claims about this picture. I believe the $ went to GZ's personal website. Just a gut instinct, but I think GZ knew about it at the bond hearing or shortly thereafter. That is PURE speculation on my part, no linky. :blushing:

Can't wait to see the accounting records. :coffeews:

elementary
05-03-2012, 12:27 AM
It's the pattern of the blood that gets me. Why the difference in how the blood flows in two different directions? Shouldn't it all flow in the same direction or am I missing something?

That's the part that gets to me, too. It looks like his head rolled to one side and then the other side with a longish pause in between. But then, having rolled to the other side, the pattern of both would stream towards it. :waitasec:

If it is indeed, authentic, then I'm guessing they will have a blood spatter expert to explain it.

LinasK
05-03-2012, 01:37 AM
Wait a minute, the police wrote up the report not long after the shooting occured. At that point, GZ had no reason to NOT believe TM wasn't the "criminal he thought he was". Matter of fact, GZ knew NOTHING about TM other than the fact that he had shot him. So why would he then go to the trouble of injuring himself to cover for it? That makes NO sense.

According to recent reports, George was straddling Trayvon, with his hands in his pockets. Guess he didn't find the drugs or burglary tools he was expecting. Imagine his surprise to only find Skittles and Iced Tea! I think George targeted Trayvon from the moment he spotted him, and the call to 911 was his cover/ get their approval to pursue...
Yeah, he did know nothing about him, such as that TM was a basically good kid, nothing about any suspensions or other irrelevant factors. He also didn't know Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend. He profiled him racially or otherwise based on his own paranoia, IMO.

gxm
05-03-2012, 10:57 AM
That's the part that gets to me, too. It looks like his head rolled to one side and then the other side with a longish pause in between. But then, having rolled to the other side, the pattern of both would stream towards it. :waitasec:

If it is indeed, authentic, then I'm guessing they will have a blood spatter expert to explain it.

I agree. IMO, the blood pattern looks to me (and I am not an expert) to be consistent with the story of a physical confrontation that involved rolling around on the ground.

LiveLaughLuv
05-03-2012, 11:25 AM
Per the person who prepped the body for burial, there were none. Oddly enough, the pro TM folks are using this to "prove" that TM didn't attack GZ. Not really understanding that, but it is what it is. :waitasec:

IF, TM gave GZ a punch to the face, he was well within his rights to his own self defense..

What folk fail to realize, GZ was told to not follow, he disregarded that order to satisfy his own ego. When GZ thought he lost sight of this suspicious character roaming HIS community, he cut through the foot path and probably surprised TM when he saw this big, burly dude following him was right in his face...

When my kids were younger, you tell them all the time to be aware of strangers and your surroundings..this gives parents more reason to improve how their children react to this, education and knowledge...dont' let this happen to your children...do you now tell them to run to the nearest home to call for help? You have a phone on you dial 911 immediately..don't let your child fall victim to another rogue NWPerson...we need new rules now for our children's safety...:banghead:

I don't worry about my adult children, I now fear for my grandchildren...what is this world coming to?

Why is it that evil seems to be embraced under the guise of self defense...when GZ's mentality tells the truth behind his actions..those who negate his words, the excited utterances, truly don't see the reason behind GZ's actions. He is on a personal vendetta.....means, motive and opportunity all present themselves to GZ....

elementary
05-03-2012, 11:34 AM
According to recent reports, George was straddling Trayvon, with his hands in his pockets. Guess he didn't find the drugs or burglary tools he was expecting. Imagine his surprise to only find Skittles and Iced Tea! I think George targeted Trayvon from the moment he spotted him, and the call to 911 was his cover/ get their approval to pursue...
Yeah, he did know nothing about him, such as that TM was a basically good kid, nothing about any suspensions or other irrelevant factors. He also didn't know Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend. He profiled him racially or otherwise based on his own paranoia, IMO.

If this accounting is true, then I find it shocking. He just killed a boy. He killed him. Yet he's treating him like the enemy, a target, not a human being. He snuffed out someone's life. Why would he be looking through his pockets? To justify his actions? Geeeeez.

For sure, look at his eyes. Paranoia writ large, like a caged animal.

If this were just self-defence, he would be beside himself with what he had done. Even justified self-defence would leave a normal person totally shaken...to take a life....

Kimberlyd125
05-03-2012, 02:05 PM
According to recent reports, George was straddling Trayvon, with his hands in his pockets. Guess he didn't find the drugs or burglary tools he was expecting. Imagine his surprise to only find Skittles and Iced Tea! I think George targeted Trayvon from the moment he spotted him, and the call to 911 was his cover/ get their approval to pursue...
Yeah, he did know nothing about him, such as that TM was a basically good kid, nothing about any suspensions or other irrelevant factors. He also didn't know Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend. He profiled him racially or otherwise based on his own paranoia, IMO.

I've never read or heard that. He was digging through his pockets?

Do you have a link to that information?

LinasK
05-03-2012, 03:30 PM
I've never read or heard that. He was digging through his pockets?

Do you have a link to that information?
It's in previous general threads here, so no, not without extensive searching.

gxm
05-03-2012, 03:36 PM
IIRC, the "pockets" story comes from one of the women, a witness who was not close by and, given that it was a dark and rainy night, probably couldn't get a clear look at what was going on. AFAIK, the closest witness to the confrontation that led to the shooting is the man who ran inside to call 911. Correct me if I'm wrong.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Kimberlyd125
05-03-2012, 03:38 PM
It's in previous general threads here, so no, not without extensive searching.

You said it was recent. I'll be happy to go look. Do you know about how recent it was? Just so I can narrow down the search a little.

Kimberlyd125
05-03-2012, 03:40 PM
IIRC, the "pockets" story comes from one of the women, a witness who was not close by and, given that it was a dark and rainy night, probably couldn't get a clear look at what was going on. AFAIK, the closest witness to the confrontation that led to the shooting is the man who ran inside to call 911. Correct me if I'm wrong.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Oh ok. So it's from 1 witness. So not really reportS.
I thought I had missed something major.

I do not believe for one moment GZ was digging through TM's pockets after the shot. LE showed up really
quickly.

Thanks for clearing it up for me so I don't have to go digging.

Kimberlyd125
05-03-2012, 03:51 PM
http://insidedateline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/25/10843593-witnesses-describe-trayvon-martins-final-moments-parents-say-he-was-headed-on-the-right-path?lite

This article quotes a witness who said GZ was straddling over TM, one foot on each side, with his hands on his back. But, it never mentions GZ going through TM's pockets.

Is this the same witness?

Kimberlyd125
05-03-2012, 03:56 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/26/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?c=&page=0

Here is another article. Witness Mary C. says GZ was straddling TM. She never says GZ went through TM's pockets.

LambChop
05-03-2012, 03:58 PM
I've asked before, to no avail unless I missed it, do you happen to know where the time-stamped picture can be found? TIA

The latest picture from ABC does not appear to have that timestamp on it. Maybe they are protecting the person who took the picture, I don't know why it still is not there???? jmo

zenreaper
05-03-2012, 04:15 PM
BBM - just because some have an opinion one way or the other, doesn't mean they should be labeled here at WS. IMO - this is not a pro/con forum, it's a victim's forum.

The autopsy should should show whether there were defensive wounds or not. According to the lead investigator, GZ's injuries were not consistent with his story (stories).

I think this is a special case, as the outcome will DETERMINE if TM was a victim or not. Unlike MOST death cases, where there is a DEFINITE "victim", there is not necessarily a victim here. If GZ is found not guilty, and warranted in his use of self defemse, well, then TM is no longer a "victim", he becomes a "perpetrator".

And yes, we will find out a lot when the autopsy is released.

jaded cat
05-03-2012, 04:18 PM
I think this is a special case, as the outcome will DETERMINE if TM was a victim or not. Unlike MOST death cases, where there is a DEFINITE "victim", there is not necessarily a victim here. If GZ is found not guilty, and warranted in his use of self defemse, well, then TM is no longer a "victim", he becomes a "perpetrator".

And yes, we will find out a lot when the autopsy is released.

TM will always be a victim, he's dead. It's also possible he was "standing his ground" that night. He won't suddenly become the perp' because he can't be charged with anything.

zenreaper
05-03-2012, 04:22 PM
According to recent reports, George was straddling Trayvon, with his hands in his pockets. Guess he didn't find the drugs or burglary tools he was expecting. Imagine his surprise to only find Skittles and Iced Tea! I think George targeted Trayvon from the moment he spotted him, and the call to 911 was his cover/ get their approval to pursue...
Yeah, he did know nothing about him, such as that TM was a basically good kid, nothing about any suspensions or other irrelevant factors. He also didn't know Trayvon was on the phone with his girlfriend. He profiled him racially or otherwise based on his own paranoia, IMO.

There is absolutely ZERO evidence that he was going through his pockets. Yes, it has been stated that he was straddling the body when police arrived. I believe it was also stated that he had his hands on his back to try and stop the blood flow from the gunshot.

But here is an interesting thought, if he SHOT TM, then jumped up and straddled him (whether to stop the blood flow, or to search his pockets), WHEN, exactly, did he have the time to cause his own injuries, as you have postulated?

zenreaper
05-03-2012, 04:24 PM
TM will always be a victim, he's dead. It's also possible he was "standing his ground" that night. He won't suddenly become the perp' because he can't be charged with anything.

So ANYONE shot during the commision of a crime becomes a victim? If it is proven that GZ acted in self defense, then he was defending himself FROM something or someone. Sorry, that is a FACT.

chefmom
05-03-2012, 04:31 PM
So ANYONE shot during the commision of a crime becomes a victim? If it is proven that GZ acted in self defense, then he was defending himself FROM something or someone. Sorry, that is a FACT.

This is sort on topic. I just received an alert from my local newspaper about an hour ago about something that happened locally. Apparently, a 14 y/o was leaving a gas station on his bicycle after a theft/robbery with someones wallet and the owner chased him down in his minivan, ran him over, got out of the van and started pummelling the kid. The kid has died of his injuries and LE are talking to the van driver. Now, this is Arkansas, so the laws are different than Florida, but we will see what happens with this. I, personally, am shocked.

zenreaper
05-03-2012, 04:41 PM
This is sort on topic. I just received an alert from my local newspaper about an hour ago about something that happened locally. Apparently, a 14 y/o was leaving a gas station on his bicycle after a theft/robbery with someones wallet and the owner chased him down in his minivan, ran him over, got out of the van and started pummelling the kid. The kid has died of his injuries and LE are talking to the van driver. Now, this is Arkansas, so the laws are different than Florida, but we will see what happens with this. I, personally, am shocked.

I don't think they are related as while IN the minivan, the guy had no fear of being incapacitated or injured. The kid didn't LEAP off the bike into the car, etc. GZ is claiming that he had no choice, as, per GZ, TM was on top of him.

zenreaper
05-03-2012, 04:48 PM
Also, as an owner of many types of guns, I will say that the "rumor" or statement that the "clicking" heard on the tape is GZ's gun, that is COMPLETE IMPOSSIBLE. It was a semi automatic Kel Tec 9mm. There was a FULL magazine, and ONE shell casing. This means that, as many gun carriers do, he inserted the magazine, slid the slide back, allowing a round to enter the chamber, ejected the magazine and placed one more round into it. At this point the gun does not NEED to be "cocked". It is a double action pistol. You pull the trigger, the gun shoots. If it was a single action pistol, yes, it would need to be cocked.

There are only a FEW actions that would cause the gun to make any sounds at all, they are as follows:

1. Pull the trigger=big bang
2. Slide the slide back=Click, with the result being an UNFIRED round ejects and a fresh round enters the chamber
3. Drop the magazine=magazine out of the gun. SOME guns will still fire the remaining round, some will not with the magazine out. My S&W .40 VE will fire with the magazine out, the S&W .40 MP will not fire with the magazine out

Lovelymountains
05-03-2012, 05:26 PM
That's the part that gets to me, too. It looks like his head rolled to one side and then the other side with a longish pause in between. But then, having rolled to the other side, the pattern of both would stream towards it. :waitasec:

If it is indeed, authentic, then I'm guessing they will have a blood spatter expert to explain it.

Spatter expert---great point.

If GZ's head were repeadedly bashed on the sidewalk, there would be blood on the sidewalk. I wonder if there were and I wonder if there are photos. The blood would also not be in neat little rivulets on Zimmerman's head. OK. I don't think it's Zimmerman at all but that's just IMO.

KateNY
05-03-2012, 05:47 PM
The 'time stamp' info for the IPhone photo ABC has of GZ injuries is shown at about
1:33 in the video

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/zimm...death-16178849


There were some screencaps ppl took, but lost in old threads.

Be great if someone has them & repost here or some techie take another one :)

highflyer
05-03-2012, 05:49 PM
Also, as an owner of many types of guns, I will say that the "rumor" or statement that the "clicking" heard on the tape is GZ's gun, that is COMPLETE IMPOSSIBLE. It was a semi automatic Kel Tec 9mm. There was a FULL magazine, and ONE shell casing. This means that, as many gun carriers do, he inserted the magazine, slid the slide back, allowing a round to enter the chamber, ejected the magazine and placed one more round into it. At this point the gun does not NEED to be "cocked". It is a double action pistol. You pull the trigger, the gun shoots. If it was a single action pistol, yes, it would need to be cocked.

There are only a FEW actions that would cause the gun to make any sounds at all, they are as follows:

1. Pull the trigger=big bang
2. Slide the slide back=Click, with the result being an UNFIRED round ejects and a fresh round enters the chamber
3. Drop the magazine=magazine out of the gun. SOME guns will still fire the remaining round, some will not with the magazine out. My S&W .40 VE will fire with the magazine out, the S&W .40 MP will not fire with the magazine out

It would have to be racked. And he could of released the magazine.

zenreaper
05-03-2012, 05:53 PM
It would have to be racked. And he could of released the magazine.

I do not understand your statement that it had to be "racked". Yes, he COULD have released the magazine, but why would you draw your gun, and drop the magazine out of it while expecting a confrontation?

LambChop
05-03-2012, 05:59 PM
There is absolutely ZERO evidence that he was going through his pockets. Yes, it has been stated that he was straddling the body when police arrived. I believe it was also stated that he had his hands on his back to try and stop the blood flow from the gunshot.

But here is an interesting thought, if he SHOT TM, then jumped up and straddled him (whether to stop the blood flow, or to search his pockets), WHEN, exactly, did he have the time to cause his own injuries, as you have postulated?

TM was shot in the chest. Where is there evidence that anyone stated GZ was trying to stop the blood flow. Surely if that we true his hand would have been full of blood. jmo

LambChop
05-03-2012, 06:02 PM
Spatter expert---great point.

If GZ's head were repeadedly bashed on the sidewalk, there would be blood on the sidewalk. I wonder if there were and I wonder if there are photos. The blood would also not be in neat little rivulets on Zimmerman's head. OK. I don't think it's Zimmerman at all but that's just IMO.

Plus it was raining that night and there is no grass clippings on his head but LE reported he did have some on his back. If he moved his head to the grass you would think he'd have clippings on the back of his head and the blood would have been smeared. LE said GZ's jacket was wet in the back???? jmo

Donjeta
05-03-2012, 06:06 PM
Not sure which method GZ would have used to stop the blood flow since the gunshot wound was in the chest and TM was found lying face down when the police arrived.

highflyer
05-03-2012, 06:07 PM
I do not understand your statement that it had to be "racked". Yes, he COULD have released the magazine, but why would you draw your gun, and drop the magazine out of it while expecting a confrontation?

Rack the slide. Loading? Checking to see if it was fully loaded? I have no idea. It makes no sense, but the sound was there.

zenreaper
05-03-2012, 06:12 PM
Rack the slide. Loading? Checking to see if it was fully loaded? I have no idea. It makes no sense, but the sound was there.

The Kel Tec, like the S&W, has a small port in the top, through which you can see the brass/casing if a round is chambered. It does not require pulling the slide back to check and see if it is loaded. Besides, if you went to the trouble of putting the extra round in the clip so you could carry one in the chamber, you wouldn't need to try and remember if it was loaded.

I would bet the "clicks" were something else.

highflyer
05-03-2012, 06:14 PM
The Kel Tec, like the S&W, has a small port in the top, through which you can see the brass/casing if a round is chambered. It does not require pulling the slide back to check and see if it is loaded. Besides, if you went to the trouble of putting the extra round in the clip so you could carry one in the chamber, you wouldn't need to try and remember if it was loaded.

I would bet the "clicks" were something else.

Something can always be something else. That is what it sounded like to me however.

zenreaper
05-03-2012, 06:15 PM
Not sure which method GZ would have used to stop the blood flow since the gunshot wound was in the chest and TM was found lying face down when the police arrived.

We will have to wait for the autopsy, but a 9mm shot through the chest at close range could easily pass straight through, leaving a bleeding opening out the back. Yes, it would be senseless to try and STOP that bleeding, as the person would bleed through the front, but after shooting him, in a panic reaction (not due to guilt, but merely due to the fact that shooting someone is a traumatic event, even for the shooter), he could easily have though he could stop the bloodflow. :twocents:

zenreaper
05-03-2012, 06:15 PM
Something can always be something else. That is what it sounded like to me however.

Yeah, but a slide doesn't CLICK.

highflyer
05-03-2012, 06:19 PM
Yeah, but a slide doesn't CLICK.

I know what it sounds like.

zenreaper
05-03-2012, 06:37 PM
I know what it sounds like.

No to be argumentative, but there is only two sounds a NON fired slide makes. One is if you slide it all the way back to the locked position, which would be ONE click, and would eject a round, followed by the LOUD sound of it being released, which didn't happen. The other is if it was, as you have speculated, iirc, sliding it back to check if a round is loaded, which would be only ONE loud sound as it was released.

Interestingly enough, BOTH of these options require BOTH hands to accomplish, and that would be pretty tough if GZ was on the phone at the same time.

Harmony2
05-03-2012, 06:44 PM
Plus it was raining that night and there is no grass clippings on his head but LE reported he did have some on his back. If he moved his head to the grass you would think he'd have clippings on the back of his head and the blood would have been smeared. LE said GZ's jacket was wet in the back???? jmo

Hi Lambchop!! :seeya:

Not sure if you were asking if GZ's jacket was wet in the back but it does mention it on page 7 of this partial police report..

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/images/newsgraphics/2012/0329-trayvon/trayvon-police-report.pdf

Donjeta
05-03-2012, 06:49 PM
We will have to wait for the autopsy, but a 9mm shot through the chest at close range could easily pass straight through, leaving a bleeding opening out the back. Yes, it would be senseless to try and STOP that bleeding, as the person would bleed through the front, but after shooting him, in a panic reaction (not due to guilt, but merely due to the fact that shooting someone is a traumatic event, even for the shooter), he could easily have though he could stop the bloodflow. :twocents:

I am waiting for the autopsy too.

However, the funeral director had this to say:

GRACE: You did see the gunshot wound. Can you tell me where on his chest was the wound if you could tell after autopsy?

KURTZ: Well, it appeared to me that it was in the upper chest area. That`s where the (INAUDIBLE).

GRACE: Did you see any other injuries on Trayvon Martin`s body?

KURTZ: Not that I could tell.

GRACE: Richard Kurtz, joining us, funeral director who handled Martin`s body.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/28/ng.01.html

He doesn't mention seeing an exit wound.

zenreaper
05-03-2012, 07:00 PM
I am waiting for the autopsy too.

However, the funeral director had this to say:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1203/28/ng.01.html

He doesn't mention seeing an exit wound.

I can see that on one hand, but I could also see not mentioning the EXIT wound, as it was a given. I mean lets be honest, he stated that he so NO wounds on TM at all. He didn't say "except the gaping hole in his chest", as it was a given. The autopsy should be quite revealing.

LambChop
05-03-2012, 07:09 PM
I can see that on one hand, but I could also see not mentioning the EXIT wound, as it was a given. I mean lets be honest, he stated that he so NO wounds on TM at all. He didn't say "except the gaping hole in his chest", as it was a given. The autopsy should be quite revealing.

TM was shot with a hollow point. They are designed to flatten or shatter, no exit wounds usually.

http://www.ehow.com/info_8500781_bullets-shatter.html

highflyer
05-03-2012, 07:10 PM
No to be argumentative, but there is only two sounds a NON fired slide makes. One is if you slide it all the way back to the locked position, which would be ONE click, and would eject a round, followed by the LOUD sound of it being released, which didn't happen. The other is if it was, as you have speculated, iirc, sliding it back to check if a round is loaded, which would be only ONE loud sound as it was released.

Interestingly enough, BOTH of these options require BOTH hands to accomplish, and that would be pretty tough if GZ was on the phone at the same time.

It does take two hands. But putting the cellphone between your jaw and shoulder works well in a pickle.

Donjeta
05-03-2012, 07:11 PM
This is another quote more specifically saying that he didn't see where an exit wound
would have been. I assume that he hesitates a little because he got to see the body after the autopsy and who knows what all was done there.

L. O`DONNELL: And I know you`re not a medical examiner, but did you
see two wounds on the body? Did you see one that would have been an
entrance wound and one that would have been an exit wound?

KURTZ: I only saw what I considered the entrance wound. I can`t --
I couldn`t tell where the exit wound, no.

L. O`DONNELL: So you only saw the entrance wound, and was that in
the chest, as we`ve heard?

KURTZ: Yes, sir.

L. O`DONNELL: Funeral Director Richard Kurtz -- I want to thank you
very much for helping us with this information tonight.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46894844/ns/msnbc_tv/t/last-word-lawrence-odonnell-wednesday-march/#.T6MPidVIt84

LambChop
05-03-2012, 07:11 PM
Hi Lambchop!! :seeya:

Not sure if you were asking if GZ's jacket was wet in the back but it does mention it on page 7 of this partial police report..

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/images/newsgraphics/2012/0329-trayvon/trayvon-police-report.pdf

Thanks, yes. I know it's in the initial police report. And we can see when he's at the station one of the officers pick something off of GZ's jacket. Hopefully it grass. lol

zenreaper
05-03-2012, 07:15 PM
It does take two hands. But putting the cellphone between your jaw and shoulder works well in a pickle.

Then wouldn't the phone have ALSO picked up a movement against the mic as he did this?

highflyer
05-03-2012, 07:18 PM
Then wouldn't the phone have ALSO picked up a movement against the mic as he did this?

It should. Still wonder if there wasn't someone else involved. Did wife go to Target with George?

zenreaper
05-03-2012, 07:20 PM
This is another quote more specifically saying that he didn't see where an exit wound
would have been. I assume that he hesitates a little because he got to see the body after the autopsy and who knows what all was done there.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46894844/ns/msnbc_tv/t/last-word-lawrence-odonnell-wednesday-march/#.T6MPidVIt84

"I only saw what I considered the entrance wound. I can`t --
I couldn`t tell where the exit wound, no."

OR, he could have been briefed on what he COULD and COULDN'T say, and slipped up. "I can't..." sounds like he was about to say he COULDN'T say anything....OOOOORRRR, in the abcence of info, my mind may be DIGGING for conspiracy, LOL.

Donjeta
05-03-2012, 07:23 PM
Do we know that GZ wasn't using a headset?

LambChop
05-03-2012, 07:28 PM
"I only saw what I considered the entrance wound. I can`t --
I couldn`t tell where the exit wound, no."

OR, he could have been briefed on what he COULD and COULDN'T say, and slipped up. "I can't..." sounds like he was about to say he COULDN'T say anything....OOOOORRRR, in the abcence of info, my mind may be DIGGING for conspiracy, LOL.

I don't know for sure but I don't think a funeral director would be turning the body over. They are only concerned with the areas that you are able to view as far as I know. jmo

zenreaper
05-03-2012, 07:35 PM
I don't know for sure but I don't think a funeral director would be turning the body over. They are only concerned with the areas that you are able to view as far as I know. jmo

Even though they usually use wrap around clothing, they still have to dress the body for the funeral. They do, most certainly, turn the body.

suzihawk
05-03-2012, 07:40 PM
"I only saw what I considered the entrance wound. I can`t --
I couldn`t tell where the exit wound, no."

OR, he could have been briefed on what he COULD and COULDN'T say, and slipped up. "I can't..." sounds like he was about to say he COULDN'T say anything....OOOOORRRR, in the abcence of info, my mind may be DIGGING for conspiracy, LOL.

Briefed by who?

zenreaper
05-03-2012, 07:44 PM
Briefed by who?

Not sure, but perhaps a representative of the coroners office when the body was transferred? Or perhaps when he was notified of the interview, he APPROACHED the PD and ASKED what he could and couldn't say. Didn;t have to be OFFICIAL or anything, a simple, "Hey, this is a racially charged and sensitive case, watch what you say to the press..."

Donjeta
05-03-2012, 08:37 PM
Not sure, but perhaps a representative of the coroners office when the body was transferred? Or perhaps when he was notified of the interview, he APPROACHED the PD and ASKED what he could and couldn't say. Didn;t have to be OFFICIAL or anything, a simple, "Hey, this is a racially charged and sensitive case, watch what you say to the press..."

I can see that but I am not sure why he or the police would have thought that not mentioning an exit wound would have helped the racially sensitive situation.

zenreaper
05-03-2012, 09:07 PM
I can see that but I am not sure why he or the police would have thought that not mentioning an exit wound would have helped the racially sensitive situation.

The location of the exit wound can be used to indicate bullet trajectory. Suppose, per the exit wound, the trajectory indicated that TM was STANDING when he was shot? Supposed it indicates that TM was straddling GZ and in close proximity, thus dictating that TM was attacking GZ? The first could lead to a lynch mob killing GZ, the second could lead to a conspiracy theory and riots.

stilettos
05-03-2012, 09:13 PM
TM was shot with a hollow point. They are designed to flatten or shatter, no exit wounds usually.

http://www.ehow.com/info_8500781_bullets-shatter.html

Yes LambChop, and they are designed to kill...no other reason for them. Those who want to do maximum damage to those they shoot in order to kill, are IMO the ONLY people who would use that ammo.

LambChop
05-03-2012, 09:14 PM
Even though they usually use wrap around clothing, they still have to dress the body for the funeral. They do, most certainly, turn the body.

Well they didn't with my husband. They told me to bring something they could cut. It was not wrap around clothing and families almost always bring the clothes in for their loved ones to be dressed and buried in. Plus most bodies are still in rigor so turning might be challenging. My understanding was they cut and tuck. That seemed logical to me at the time. jmo

LambChop
05-03-2012, 09:18 PM
Even though they usually use wrap around clothing, they still have to dress the body for the funeral. They do, most certainly, turn the body.

Sounds like a question for Grandmaj.

zenreaper
05-03-2012, 09:23 PM
Yes LambChop, and they are designed to kill...no other reason for them. Those who want to do maximum damage to those they shoot in order to kill, are IMO the ONLY people who would use that ammo.

Yep. Because I do not pull my gun unless I feel a VALID life threatening situation is at hand. I do not shoot to WOUND, for a number of reasons. Number one, pistols are very inaccurate due to the short barrel length and maximum damage to neutralize the threat is the goal. Number two, shooting a gun out of someones hand or shooting them in the leg is the stuff of Hollywood. When you pull your gun, you aim for the largest traget a human has, body mass. And third, and MOST important, when that criminal comes at me, to take my stuff, harm my family, or harm me, and I only wing them, some bleeding heart jury will make me work for the rest of my life to support this lowlife who wanted to harm us.

I carry a gun, because I cannot carry a cop, and when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

highflyer
05-03-2012, 09:36 PM
Yep. Because I do not pull my gun unless I feel a VALID life threatening situation is at hand. I do not shoot to WOUND, for a number of reasons. Number one, pistols are very inaccurate due to the short barrel length and maximum damage to neutralize the threat is the goal. Number two, shooting a gun out of someones hand or shooting them in the leg is the stuff of Hollywood. When you pull your gun, you aim for the largest traget a human has, body mass. And third, and MOST important, when that criminal comes at me, to take my stuff, harm my family, or harm me, and I only wing them, some bleeding heart jury will make me work for the rest of my life to support this lowlife who wanted to harm us.

I carry a gun, because I cannot carry a cop, and when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

What "stuff" that you have could possibly be worth a human life?

zenreaper
05-03-2012, 09:55 PM
What "stuff" that you have could possibly be worth a human life?

MY stuff, and the "human life" is that of a person who hold NO respect for law and order, thus I hold none for them. It is such beliefs that its only STUFF and we shouldn't KILL to protect it that has allowed our criminal justice system to evolve into what it has. I hold no harm or ill will to those who do not threaten me. But if you are suggesting that I should NOT respond with force, because the intruder MIGHT only want to take my stuff, and NOT rape my daughter, you are sorely mistaken.

highflyer
05-03-2012, 09:58 PM
MY stuff, and the "human life" is that of a person who hold NO respect for law and order, thus I hold none for them. It is such beliefs that its only STUFF and we shouldn't KILL to protect it that has allowed our criminal justice system to evolve into what it has. I hold no harm or ill will to those who do not threaten me. But if you are suggesting that I should NOT respond with force, because the intruder MIGHT only want to take my stuff, and NOT rape my daughter, you are sorely mistaken.

Thank you.

Karmady
05-03-2012, 10:52 PM
What "stuff" that you have could possibly be worth a human life?

I would suggest you ask that of the criminal who is willing to take someone's stuff at the risk of his or her life. Don't want to risk your life, don't try and take my stuff. Simple.

katydid23
05-03-2012, 10:56 PM
Sometimes a robber takes your wallet then shoots you in the head for the heck of it.

francie
05-03-2012, 11:37 PM
Sometimes a robber takes your wallet then shoots you in the head for the heck of it.

True. Just like some people shoot & kill other people for the thrill of it.

:moo:

highflyer
05-03-2012, 11:40 PM
I would suggest you ask that of the criminal who is willing to take someone's stuff at the risk of his or her life. Don't want to risk your life, don't try and take my stuff. Simple.

Personally, I'd have more respect for a thief than a murderer.

Karmady
05-04-2012, 12:02 AM
Personally, I'd have more respect for a thief than a murderer.

So would I, sort of, I guess. If I were inclined to attribute respect to varying degrees of criminals. But I'm not. And I don't consider someone defending themselves from a criminal invasion a "murderer."

Ask yourself whether, if someone broke in to your house tomorrow and ran into your 8 yo child at the door, whether you would distinguish whether they "only" wanted your tv or your daughter.

vlpate
05-04-2012, 01:56 AM
Yes LambChop, and they are designed to kill...no other reason for them. Those who want to do maximum damage to those they shoot in order to kill, are IMO the ONLY people who would use that ammo.

People who carry concealed handguns for self defense, regardless of what one thinks of this case, use hollow point bullets for two reasons....to kill the person who is trying to kill them. Their aim is not to wound them and have them continue their attack. The other reason is this type bullet poses less danger to bystanders.

I love the analogy that a victim should shoot the attacker in the leg - my thought, the attacker wasn't hitting the victim in the leg.

JMO

vlpate
05-04-2012, 02:00 AM
So would I, sort of, I guess. If I were inclined to attribute respect to varying degrees of criminals. But I'm not. And I don't consider someone defending themselves from a criminal invasion a "murderer."

Ask yourself whether, if someone broke in to your house tomorrow and ran into your 8 yo child at the door, whether you would distinguish whether they "only" wanted your tv or your daughter.

I wouldn't think twice about shooting someone who came into my house to rob me. They know going in what the risks are. JMO

LambChop
05-04-2012, 08:13 AM
People who carry concealed handguns for self defense, regardless of what one thinks of this case, use hollow point bullets for two reasons....to kill the person who is trying to kill them. Their aim is not to wound them and have them continue their attack. The other reason is this type bullet poses less danger to bystanders.

I love the analogy that a victim should shoot the attacker in the leg - my thought, the attacker wasn't hitting the victim in the leg.

JMO

It must be hard living one's life in constant fear. jmo

Kimberlyd125
05-04-2012, 09:11 AM
It must be hard living one's life in constant fear. jmo


It's not about living in fear. It's about being prepared.

Just because someone carries, it does not mean they live in fear.

We have fire alarms to save us from fires.
We have seat belts installed in cars.
We have airbags.
We have a ton of things that keep us prepared in case something awful happens.

Not because we live in fear. It's because bad things do happen. And many would rather be prepared for them instead of just hoping they don't happen.

I don't carry. It's my choice not to.

But, I certainly wouldn't categorize those who do as living in constant fear.

JMO

imamaze
05-04-2012, 09:41 AM
I wouldn't think twice about shooting someone who came into my house to rob me. They know going in what the risks are. JMO

We're not talking about someone coming into the home though are we? Someone coming into your home with you there, you would have no idea what they were coming in for. How would you know if they were just coming to rob you? Still in my opinion GZ should not have been following Trayvon. None of this would have happened if he had just stayed in his vehicle. So what if the a**holes always get away!

JMO

LambChop
05-04-2012, 10:33 AM
It's not about living in fear. It's about being prepared.

Just because someone carries, it does not mean they live in fear.

We have fire alarms to save us from fires.
We have seat belts installed in cars.
We have airbags.
We have a ton of things that keep us prepared in case something awful happens.

Not because we live in fear. It's because bad things do happen. And many would rather be prepared for them instead of just hoping they don't happen.

I don't carry. It's my choice not to.

But, I certainly wouldn't categorize those who do as living in constant fear.JMO

But they are. You can see some of the fear revealed in their postings. Everytime you put that gun on you are thinking about the fact that someone may attack you or you would not reach for it.

The only time my husband ever took his gun was after he left the PD and he knew he had to go back into an area of the city to take a statement. He said some people would still remember him as a cop. He never put it on for any other reason than that.

Don't get me wrong there are some who were victims and do feel that fear and it may never go away. I just remember my husband telling me that if you carry a gun you have to remember that gun could be turned on you. Most people do not see an attack coming. Anyone meaning to do you harm would not walk away without taking that gun if it's there for the taking.

It's sad to think that people feel they have to carry a gun but that is their choice. I believe GZ should have never been permitted to carry a gun because I don't think he would have gotten out of that truck had he not had one on him. jmo

LambChop
05-04-2012, 10:38 AM
People who carry concealed handguns for self defense, regardless of what one thinks of this case, use hollow point bullets for two reasons....to kill the person who is trying to kill them. Their aim is not to wound them and have them continue their attack. The other reason is this type bullet poses less danger to bystanders.

I love the analogy that a victim should shoot the attacker in the leg - my thought, the attacker wasn't hitting the victim in the leg.

JMO

That is good to know. So the next time I see someone with a weapon I should fear for my life if I accidently tick them off. lol

I think what we will find from this case is that both GZ and TM felt their life was threatened and only GZ had a gun so that means he wins. jmo

zenreaper
05-04-2012, 01:32 PM
We're not talking about someone coming into the home though are we? Someone coming into your home with you there, you would have no idea what they were coming in for. How would you know if they were just coming to rob you? Still in my opinion GZ should not have been following Trayvon. None of this would have happened if he had just stayed in his vehicle. So what if the a**holes always get away!

JMO

And suppose TM HAD been up to no good? Suppose you lived i The Retreat, and GZ stayed in his car, and that "a**hole" got away. came to your apartment and raped you. Would you then still be saying he should have remained in his car? GZ presented NO evidence of being a danger to TM. He was FOLLOWING him. TM did NOT react like someone who was in fear of a crime. GZ DID act that way, he called the cops. TM called his GIRLFRIEND, chatted with her, bopping along like nothing was wrong.

Now, simple question, you have a cell phone, you feel like your life is in danger, who do you call, the police or your significant other?

zenreaper
05-04-2012, 01:35 PM
That is good to know. So the next time I see someone with a weapon I should fear for my life if I accidently tick them off. lol

I think what we will find from this case is that both GZ and TM felt their life was threatened and only GZ had a gun so that means he wins. jmo

See, you have equated "threatened" to "ticked off', which is not true, nor the same thing. Have GZ shot TM when he "ticked" him off, he would have done so right after he left the vehicle, and not waited until TM attacked him.

ILikeToBendPages
05-04-2012, 01:39 PM
Was there any mention of "blow back" blood spatter on GZ?

If GZ fired his gun during a struggle while on the ground with TM on top of him, then TM's blood should be on him somewhere. On his face, hands and clothes. No gun powder residue on GZ or TM from firing a gun from close range while on his back on the ground?

That would tell about how close he was when he fired his gun. If there was an exit wound to TM's back was the bullet recovered at the scene?


The blood patterns on back of his head is still just weird to me. The blood just stops flowing? In two different directions around the same time? Fighting for your life and no blood is smeared on your head or clothes while your moving around trying to get a man off of you. None of your blood on a boys hand"s that you claim was banging your head against a sidewalk?

Why would you let a man, whose said his head was pounded on a sidewalk several times, and those injuries might need stitches, go without transporting him to the ER so they could check to see how severe his wounds were and if he had a head concussion?

Why would you not want to see how badly hurt you were when you were in a fight for you life? Blood flowing from the back of your head, blood flowing down your throat and you say your OK.

chefmom
05-04-2012, 01:45 PM
And suppose TM HAD been up to no good? Suppose you lived i The Retreat, and GZ stayed in his car, and that "a**hole" got away. came to your apartment and raped you. Would you then still be saying he should have remained in his car? GZ presented NO evidence of being a danger to TM. He was FOLLOWING him. TM did NOT react like someone who was in fear of a crime. GZ DID act that way, he called the cops. TM called his GIRLFRIEND, chatted with her, bopping along like nothing was wrong.

Now, simple question, you have a cell phone, you feel like your life is in danger, who do you call, the police or your significant other?

This post asks for all of us to go on complete and total assumption, and you know what they say about that. First, we must ASSUME that TM was up to no good. There is absolutely no evidence that he was doing anything other than walking home from the store. Next, we must imagine ourselves in a horrendous situation in order to try and imagine why GZ could be in the right in this situation. Then, again we must ASSUME that TM "did NOT react like someone who was in fear of a crime." There is simply no way to know that. GZ may have called the cops, but he certainly didn't sound fearful in the 911 calls. He sounded pizzed about the a$$holes getting away. And, as far as TM chatting and bopping like nothing was wrong, well, nothing should have been wrong. He was walking back to his dad's girlfriend's home where he was staying. This case is a tragedy because GZ was overzealous and ASSUMED TM was up to no good. Now TM is dead. I, for one, will not do too much assuming. I will work with facts only. JMO

Elley Mae
05-04-2012, 01:53 PM
Was there any mention of "blow back" blood spatter on GZ?

If GZ fired his gun during a struggle while on the ground with TM on top of him, then TM's blood should be on him somewhere. On his face, hands and clothes. No gun powder residue on GZ or TM from firing a gun from close range while on his back on the ground?

That would tell about how close he was when he fired his gun. If there was an exit wound to TM's back was the bullet recovered at the scene?


The blood patterns on back of his head is still just weird to me. The blood just stops flowing? In two different directions around the same time? Fighting for your life and no blood is smeared on your head or clothes while your moving around trying to get a man off of you. None of your blood on a boys hand"s that you claim was banging your head against a sidewalk?

Why would you let a man, whose said his head was pounded on a sidewalk several times, and those injuries might need stitches, go without transporting him to the ER so they could check to see how severe his wounds were and if he had a head concussion?

Why would you not want to see how badly hurt you were when you were in a fight for you life? Blood flowing from the back of your head, blood flowing down your throat and you say your OK.

As far as "blow back" if TM had a sweat shirt that was zipped up or did not have a zipper the "blow back" would be inside the shirt,no?

Donjeta
05-04-2012, 01:53 PM
And suppose TM HAD been up to no good? Suppose you lived i The Retreat, and GZ stayed in his car, and that "a**hole" got away. came to your apartment and raped you. Would you then still be saying he should have remained in his car? GZ presented NO evidence of being a danger to TM. He was FOLLOWING him. TM did NOT react like someone who was in fear of a crime. GZ DID act that way, he called the cops. TM called his GIRLFRIEND, chatted with her, bopping along like nothing was wrong.

Now, simple question, you have a cell phone, you feel like your life is in danger, who do you call, the police or your significant other?

Under this logic it totally makes sense to shoot everybody I see because there is no way for me to know that they're not planning to enter my apartment and rape me. I could suppose that everybody is an a***** without any evidence.

Lots of people who follow strangers turn out to be a danger to them.

vlpate
05-04-2012, 02:09 PM
That is good to know. So the next time I see someone with a weapon I should fear for my life if I accidently tick them off. lol
You wouldn't know if they have a concealed weapon, so I'm not sure what is meant by "seeing someone with a weapon". If they are pulling a gun on you, then heck yeah, I think that goes without saying you should probably not tick them off, lol. My post was more just information about hollow-point bullets.

I think what we will find from this case is that both GZ and TM felt their life was threatened and only GZ had a gun so that means he wins. jmo

Agreed.

Kimberlyd125
05-04-2012, 02:10 PM
But they are. You can see some of the fear revealed in their postings. Everytime you put that gun on you are thinking about the fact that someone may attack you or you would not reach for it.
The only time my husband ever took his gun was after he left the PD and he knew he had to go back into an area of the city to take a statement. He said some people would still remember him as a cop. He never put it on for any other reason than that.

Don't get me wrong there are some who were victims and do feel that fear and it may never go away. I just remember my husband telling me that if you carry a gun you have to remember that gun could be turned on you. Most people do not see an attack coming. Anyone meaning to do you harm would not walk away without taking that gun if it's there for the taking.

It's sad to think that people feel they have to carry a gun but that is their choice. I believe GZ should have never been permitted to carry a gun because I don't think he would have gotten out of that truck had he not had one on him. jmo

BBM - No more than everytime I put a seatbelt on I'm thinking I may get into a horrible wreck.
I don't live in constant fear of head on collisions, but I click my seatbelt everytmie I enter a vehicle.

I am not terrified my house will surely burn down every time I change the batteries in my smoke alarms.

My daughter is not in constant fear that a pitch may hit her in the head each time she puts on her batting helmet.

IMO when you carry a gun, it's a safety measure. Much like the ones I mentioned above.
It does not mean you live in constant fear.
It means you are a realist who knows bad things happen and you would rather be safe than sorry (dead).

I don't feel anybody thinks they HAVE to carry a gun. I think they feel they have the RIGHT to carry one for protection.

I don't think you can fairly say that they are living in constant fear.

stilettos
05-04-2012, 02:22 PM
BBM - No more than everytime I put a seatbelt on I'm thinking I may get into a horrible wreck.
I don't live in constant fear of head on collisions, but I click my seatbelt everytmie I enter a vehicle.

I am not terrified my house will surely burn down every time I change the batteries in my smoke alarms.

My daughter is not in constant fear that a pitch may hit her in the head each time she puts on her batting helmet.

IMO when you carry a gun, it's a safety measure. Much like the ones I mentioned above.
It does not mean you live in constant fear.
It means you are a realist who knows bad things happen and you would rather be safe than sorry (dead).

I don't feel anybody thinks they HAVE to carry a gun. I think they feel they have the RIGHT to carry one for protection.

I don't think you can fairly say that they are living in constant fear.

We have weapons and believe in the right to bear arms. CCP's and everything. I would NEVER take a weapon out of a car to FOLLOW someone! I would never load my weapon with killer bullets. My weapon is for protection and some for hunting. Protecting myself means having my weapon where I can get to it IF I need it after retreating to a place of safety. It does NOT mean you have the right to pick it up and go running after someone because of the way they look and shoot them dead. If GZ had remained in his truck and on the phone with LE, TM would be alive. He never should have had a weapon. I don't think GZ lived in fear...I think he was looking for an opportunity to use those killer bullets.

LambChop
05-04-2012, 02:30 PM
See, you have equated "threatened" to "ticked off', which is not true, nor the same thing. Have GZ shot TM when he "ticked" him off, he would have done so right after he left the vehicle, and not waited until TM attacked him.

Why would GZ be ticked off because TM was headed away from him? What was TM doing at that time that would tick GZ off?

The reason you have to apply for a gun license is so that people who have a tendency towards violence can not get a CWP. I also feel, and it will probably be proven, GZ never should have been able to carry a weapon. NWP rules specifically say no guns. LE directed him not to follow but he continued anyway. He never informed LE he had a gun. These are all signs of irreponsible behavior.

Now as someone who has a CWP and carries their gun with them if there was a problem where you (the gun carrier) had to call 911 for an LE response would you notify the dispatcher FYI that you had a weapon on you? This is just a general question not directed at anyone in particular. jmo

Kimberlyd125
05-04-2012, 02:30 PM
We have weapons and believe in the right to bear arms. CCP's and everything. I would NEVER take a weapon out of a car to FOLLOW someone! I would never load my weapon with killer bullets. My weapon is for protection and some for hunting. Protecting myself means having my weapon where I can get to it IF I need it after retreating to a place of safety. It does NOT mean you have the right to pick it up and go running after someone because of the way they look and shoot them dead. If GZ had remained in his truck and on the phone with LE, TM would be alive. He never should have had a weapon. I don't think GZ lived in fear...I think he was looking for an opportunity to use those killer bullets.


I was responding to a poster here, who believes that people who carry live in constant fear.

My post was a general post. It had nothing to do with the events of the night of the shooting.

waltzingmatilda
05-04-2012, 02:32 PM
And suppose TM HAD been up to no good? Suppose you lived i The Retreat, and GZ stayed in his car, and that "a**hole" got away. came to your apartment and raped you. Would you then still be saying he should have remained in his car? GZ presented NO evidence of being a danger to TM. He was FOLLOWING him. TM did NOT react like someone who was in fear of a crime. GZ DID act that way, he called the cops. TM called his GIRLFRIEND, chatted with her, bopping along like nothing was wrong.

Now, simple question, you have a cell phone, you feel like your life is in danger, who do you call, the police or your significant other?

Respectfully, supposition and actuality are two different things. (I know that you know that as you seem to be as tarp as a shack as I am, LOL!)

My point is that IMO, GZ's 911 call indicates that he was doing some 'supposing' and it hasn't worked out so well for him thus far. GZ did call 911 but by leaving his vehicle, and leaving his keys inside, and following Trayvon does not portray a person in fear of bodily harm.

WRT TM being on the phone with his GF, I talk and walk alot!:woohoo:

MOO

wm

LambChop
05-04-2012, 02:32 PM
BBM - No more than everytime I put a seatbelt on I'm thinking I may get into a horrible wreck.
I don't live in constant fear of head on collisions, but I click my seatbelt everytmie I enter a vehicle.

I am not terrified my house will surely burn down every time I change the batteries in my smoke alarms.

My daughter is not in constant fear that a pitch may hit her in the head each time she puts on her batting helmet.

IMO when you carry a gun, it's a safety measure. Much like the ones I mentioned above.
It does not mean you live in constant fear.
It means you are a realist who knows bad things happen and you would rather be safe than sorry (dead).

I don't feel anybody thinks they HAVE to carry a gun. I think they feel they have the RIGHT to carry one for protection.

I don't think you can fairly say that they are living in constant fear.

How do you feel when you leave the gun at home????