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Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 12:15 PM
I guess Derstine couldn't make an opening statement, because his 1 day at trial would be:

1. Opening Statement
2. 1 Witness
3. Closing Statement

Not very effective or impactual to reiterate the same thing all in one day. Especially when the Crown took 2 months to present the goods against.

snoofer
05-01-2012, 12:15 PM
either TLM had balls going INTO the school and being AT the school NOT around the school as implyed. WOW... umm WOW if accurate

not sure TLM is any good with boundaries...MOO

myzzy
05-01-2012, 12:16 PM
that is the only defense witness???? Sorry, behind here. Not seeing the point or what it changes... MOO

yup according to the announcement this morning

Not sure if they can call anyone later but they said only the only testifying this morning.

Oldsoul2
05-01-2012, 12:16 PM
Didn't we hear from one of the crowns witnesses that a woman was at the top of the hill from the school watching TLM leave with Tori and that she has never seen this woman there before? Wouldn't she or someone else have seen TLM go into the school since she had a clear view of them walking away, more than this grandma did since the buses were in front of her. Are there cameras at the school doors to prove this theory? You can't just say it is so without proof. I really doubt that TLM IMO went into the school.

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 12:16 PM
at this point I am just surprised he didn't go with a plea deal vs sitting thru three months of testimony.

If that is all the reasonable doubt the defense team has to throw at the wall.. well, I just am not sure anything is sticking (but then again usually to get something to stick you need to throw more than one thing at the wall)

just saying.

bbm

You're absolutely right nurse.
Not making a plea deal was aother big mistake Derstine made

guess Derstine will be running something by Heeney...right through lunch

jmo

nobodyzgirl
05-01-2012, 12:17 PM
Victoria's teacher testified that she left the school...out the doors and outside...alone.

The grandmother saw a woman in a white coat (with no distinctive stripes) enter the school. She did not see her leave. There is no proof that she saw TLM enter the school. Random witness testimony is notoriously inaccurate.

So wherever Victoria met up with TLM, it was outside.

No proof that TLM lied about anything.

MOO

She also testified that she saw the exact woman walking up the street with Tori, beause the coat was identical. Sounds to me like she was rather accurate in her description that in fact it was the same woman who entered the school and was walking up the street with Tori moments later, in a hurry to get somewhere with a stern look on her face, while Tori was happy skipping along right beside her. Based on that alone, TLM targetted Tori and it wasn't random as she stated on the witness stand - JMO

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 12:18 PM
Where can I find the video of McClitic and Tori walking together?

Mike Knoll: @guest - there's an excellent breakdown of that video at lfpress.com/videos - its headline is Rafferty/McClintic surveillance video part 1.
This link may also work: http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/26/19684816.html

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 12:19 PM
Something just isnt right here. Maybe Derstine has a plan of some sort? Why call a recess, why does he have to reexamination of his own witness? Did the crown do something wrong? Was it the question, was TLM holding something in her hands? Would he have a problem with this question??

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 12:19 PM
Poor old lady. Gawd. The lives that these people ruined makes me sick.. No one should have to be brought into this crap. I feel bad for each and every one of them.

And if that is all the defence has I am shocked, it makes no sense and Rafferty should have taken the stand but I know why he didnt, because he is GUILTY!!!


BBM: Couldn't agree more.

Dmman
05-01-2012, 12:19 PM
I guess Derstine was sitting back having a cold one this past weekend while all those expert lawyers were giving options in various media speculating the different angles the defense could use. No opening statement & witness was probably prepped in an hour. JMO

robynhood
05-01-2012, 12:19 PM
LindaNguyenPN The #Rafferty trial is now arguing a few legal issues without the presence of the jury #toristafford...update from twitter

...be back soon errands to do......Imo ..this will take a while ...see ya later robynhood..

SideKick
05-01-2012, 12:20 PM
Didn't we hear from one of the crowns witnesses that a woman was at the top of the hill from the school watching TLM leave with Tori and that she has never seen this woman there before? Wouldn't she or someone else have seen TLM go into the school since she had a clear view of them walking away, more than this grandma did since the buses were in front of her. Are there cameras at the school doors to prove this theory? You can't just say it is so without proof. I really doubt that TLM IMO went into the school.

Oldsoul2.... this sounds very familiar to me too. Uhmmm.. The woman on the hill...... where is she?

Bravo
05-01-2012, 12:20 PM
that is the only defense witness???? Sorry, behind here. Not seeing the point or what it changes... MOO

An attempt to show since TLM was brazen enough to enter the school MTR had no other reason to believe this was just a babysitting stint.

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 12:21 PM
Something just isnt right here. Maybe Derstine has a plan of some sort? Why call a recess, why does he have to reexamination of his own witness? Did the crown do something wrong? Was it the question, was TLM holding something in her hands? Would he have a problem with this question??


BBM: Maybe. We'll find out soon enough. Not sure Judge Heeney will be up for any trickery, though.

nursebeeme
05-01-2012, 12:22 PM
Something just isnt right here. Maybe Derstine has a plan of some sort? Why call a recess, why does he have to reexamination of his own witness? Did the crown do something wrong? Was it the question, was TLM holding something in her hands? Would he have a problem with this question??

if the crown brought up something that he wants to re-examine he gets another go... the Crown can also re-cross and re-re-cross...

I am trying to figure out what he is going to re-examine.. most likely the pants color, etc that the Crown got her on (she changed her witness statement)

moo

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 12:23 PM
BBM: Maybe. We'll find out soon enough. Not sure Judge Heeney will be up for any trickery, though.

I hope he doesnt. I want this to be over already. Justice to be done for that poor little angel that died at the hands of two sick twisted people.

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 12:23 PM
RaffertyLFP: Jury being brought back.

Jurors returning now.

robynhood
05-01-2012, 12:24 PM
RaffertyLFP Jury being brought back....robynhood

Salem
05-01-2012, 12:25 PM
Were staff members walking with VS down the sidewalk........in an identical coat?

What I am wondering about now is the VS teacher's testimony.

If she saw VS going out and then back to the classroom for her earrings, and then out again...............why didn't she see TLM?

There is no reason to disbelieve this witness. She has no credibility issues and no reason to hide anything or lie.

She was at the school often picking up her own grand kids.

Posters are making derogatory remarks about her......and don't even know anything about her........including her age.

If she says she saw TLM walking in the front door of the school...........TLM walked in the front door of the school.........IMO.

Believe the witness or TLM?...........................JMO.

It seems the implication here is that Tori's teacher lied? Why would she do that? And it was obvious that the witness did see TLM but was confused about some of the details and her testimoney today was inconsistent with the report given to LE 3 years ago.

I'm going with the teacher's testimony, myself. I have no idea what the jurors will do, but I do think they will be cognizant of the witness' inconsistencies.

Just sayin'

Salem

LoyalSleuth
05-01-2012, 12:25 PM
An attempt to show since TLM was brazen enough to enter the school MTR had no other reason to believe this was just a babysitting stint.

But if TLM told MR she was babysitting and was going "into" the school to get TS, why would MR park so far away from the school? If I was driving someone to pick up a child they were "babysitting" i would park right up front, or where all the other pick ups were waiting...

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 12:26 PM
RaffertyLFP: Derstine asking woman about statement to police on May 26, 2009.

Derstine asks the witness about May 26th, 2009.

CarrieBean
05-01-2012, 12:27 PM
Oldsoul2.... this sounds very familiar to me too. Uhmmm.. The woman on the hill...... where is she?

There was a woman in the video who met her son on the sidewalk right when Tori and TLM passed. That one, or was there another?

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 12:27 PM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Jury is back, Derstine returns to pick up questioning grandmother on stand now. Reading part of her police statement from May 26, 2009 #sl

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 12:27 PM
JamesArmstrong

Witness says she remembers giving statement to police in 2009. #rafferty (https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23rafferty)

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 12:27 PM
Derstine is reading the statement, it says the white coat woman, with dark hair, was near the school.

It says she went in the front door. She saw the woman with a little girl later. No more questions.

There are some more legal issues to discuss. The jury will be back at 2:30.

RaffertyLFP: Derstine finished. Witness dismissed.

Derstine confirms that is the only witness the defense will call.

RaffertyLFP: Jury given extended lunch until 2:30.

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 12:28 PM
James Armstrong‏@jamesarmstrong7

Lawyer reads statement witness gave to police in 2009. She agrees she said. Questioning of witness is done.

(https://twitter.com/#)

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 12:28 PM
12:27
http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/1862937618/trialavatar_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/RaffertyLFP)RaffertyLFP:

Jury given extended lunch until 2:30. [via Twitter]

Tuesday May 1, 2012 12:27 RaffertyLFP

12:27
http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/1862937618/trialavatar_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/RaffertyLFP)RaffertyLFP:

Derstine finished. Witness dismissed. [via Twitter]

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 12:29 PM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Jury back. Witness is back on the stand. Derstine clarifies the piece of her testimony relating to the colour of the woman's hair.

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 12:30 PM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Derstine finishes with witness, she is dismissed. Legal arguments beginning again, jury excused until 2:30 p.m. #sl

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 12:30 PM
Linda Nguyen‏@LindaNguyenPN

Derstine is now cross-examining his witness. He is reading out a statement she gave to police on May 26, 2009

CarrieBean
05-01-2012, 12:31 PM
So what now? Closing statements after lunch?

Bravo
05-01-2012, 12:31 PM
But if TLM told MR she was babysitting and was going "into" the school to get TS, why would MR park so far away from the school? If I was driving someone to pick up a child they were "babysitting" i would park right up front, or where all the other pick ups were waiting...

Exactly and if there is a Juror buying into this i would hope these questions would be bantered. What is reasonable and believable. That TLM was so sick and twisted she would walk right into a school to snatch a child while poor innocent MTR waited outside per her instruction and was just a shocked horrified duped chauffeur.

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 12:32 PM
*THUD*

(All I can say)

Dmman
05-01-2012, 12:32 PM
His defense, or lack of one, surprises me almost as much as all those girlfriends & the escort! I wasn't sure what we would hear today...but I was expecting quite a bit more than this. So this is what MR has been waiting for his day in court for? To present hostile Grandmom as his witness?!

Oldsoul2
05-01-2012, 12:32 PM
But if TLM told MR she was babysitting and was going "into" the school to get TS, why would MR park so far away from the school? If I was driving someone to pick up a child they were "babysitting" i would park right up front, or where all the other pick ups were waiting...

IMO regardless of whether or not this jury believes TLM to be bold enough to go inside the school (which I don't think she did) and tell MR she was babysitting and take her to the woods and kill her over a "debt" that wasn't paid, which IMO she would hold unto her until she got the money out of Tara and MR was just there but lied about it and was mortified but helped clean up, visited her in detention, hugging and stroking her hair, lied when confronted and never went to the cops in the first place, the point here, besides this theory sounding <modsnip> IMO toppled by evidence that does not support this theory, this testimony is irrelevant IMO, useless waste of time. IMO IF these jurors take a look at what they would do in that situation, he is going away for a very long time. IMO <modsnip>.

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 12:33 PM
So what now? Closing statements after lunch?

Hope so! Hope they can end today and start deliberations but I doubt it. Derstine will probably want more time.

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 12:33 PM
Avery Moore‏@AveryFreeFMNews

Defence's witness is excused. Jury is given a long lunch so that laywers can deal with some legal issues.

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 12:33 PM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Defence's witness is excused. Jury is given a long lunch so that laywers can deal with some legal issues.

tygomuk
05-01-2012, 12:34 PM
I doubt Derstine will have people flocking to his door for defense. But then again, it is difficult to defend a guilty person. MOO!

Apparently not in Orlando...

Hello_Kitty
05-01-2012, 12:35 PM
eyewitnesses can be unreliable. It has nothing to do with their personal credibility.. it has to do with seeing something with your eyes and being able to recall details.

I have not seen derogatory comments. If there have been please alert. It has been stated that she is a grandmother.


Just because she says she saw TLM walk in the school does not mean that 100% TLM walked into the school. The witness also said she was not carrying anything but in the video TLM was carrying a purse.

moo

Witness also said she thought it was TS's mother, and said she was one bus length away, then two bus length away. She isn't really a credible witness, she is too confused about what she saw.

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 12:35 PM
Linda Nguyen‏@LindaNguyenP (Nguyen‏@LindaNguyenP)

In the meantime, court will hear some more legal arguments, which are unreportable

(https://twitter.com/#)

KMouse
05-01-2012, 12:35 PM
If I were a juror I would be annoyed that I had to get out of bed for this witness.
Derstine would have been better off calling no witnesses and moving to the closing arguements.

How come the Crown didn't call this witness?

Salem
05-01-2012, 12:36 PM
at this point I am just surprised he didn't go with a plea deal vs sitting thru three months of testimony.

If that is all the reasonable doubt the defense team has to throw at the wall.. well, I just am not sure anything is sticking (but then again usually to get something to stick you need to throw more than one thing at the wall)

just saying.

It is always the client's choice (at least in US) whether or not to accept a plea deal. I would bet money that Casey Anthony was offered and refused several plea deals along the way.... worked for her :(

The lawyer can advise, but it is the client's choice.

Salem

robynhood
05-01-2012, 12:36 PM
AveryFreeFMNews Defence's witness is excused. Jury is given a long lunch so that laywers can deal with some legal issues. #Rafferty..Not back till 2;30....Imo ...OMG ...that means another 2 hour delay ...right???...IMo I hope this will end soon...verdict needed...Imo..all those involved have been thru enough...I personally feel for TORI"S FAmILY ...terrible..IMO..robynhood

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 12:36 PM
Rafferty doesn't take the stand at Victoria Stafford murder trial

A man accused in the murder of eight-year-old Victoria Stafford will not take the stand as his defence lawyer opened and closed his case today with one brief witness.

The Crown wrapped up its case against Michael Rafferty last week, and today the defence called one witness who was one of the last people to see Tori alive.

http://www.680news.com/news/national/article/357634--rafferty-doesn-t-take-the-stand-at-victoria-stafford-murder-trial

Hello_Kitty
05-01-2012, 12:37 PM
On top of this Derstine claimed publicly before the trial that there was alot we don't know and will be shocked about or something like that. I'm shocked, definitely shocked at the total lack of defense.

By this I think we now know he probably meant that it was TLM that wielded the hamme and not MR. However, he has come very short of what I expected, I really expected a fight from defense. I didn't see it atall.

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 12:38 PM
It really is shocking that Rafferty didn't have even 1 person who knows him(family)...take the stand.

Speaks volumes

jmo

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 12:39 PM
If I were a juror I would be annoyed that I had to get out of bed for this witness.
Derstine would have been better off calling no witnesses and moving to the closing arguements.

How come the Crown didn't call this witness?

IMO, because of her memory issues? Credibility? I'm guessing her interview with LE was wishy washy.

I don't mean the above in a mean way. Eye witnesses are sometimes unreliable and I think this may be one of those cases.

OhSoCurious
05-01-2012, 12:39 PM
Victoria's teacher testified that she left the school...out the doors and outside...alone.

The grandmother saw a woman in a white coat (with no distinctive stripes) enter the school. She did not see her leave. There is no proof that she saw TLM enter the school. Random witness testimony is notoriously inaccurate.

So wherever Victoria met up with TLM, it was outside.

No proof that TLM lied about anything.

MOO

No proof the teacher could not have made an oversight that day either. She testified to the best of her recollection .... but ... I hope the fact that she broke down crying on the stand does not leave room for her questioning herself, deep down inside? MOO

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 12:39 PM
The crowd in the overflow courtroom is thinning. Most of the extra observers today expected to hear Rafferty testimony.

CarrieBean
05-01-2012, 12:41 PM
How the heck did it take 2.5 hours for this witness?

CarrieBean
05-01-2012, 12:43 PM
No proof the teacher could not have made an oversight that day either. She testified to the best of her recollection .... but ... I hope the fact that she broke down crying on the stand does not leave room for her questioning herself, deep down inside? MOO

BBM

What about all of the other people in and outside of the school who didn't see TLM go in/out? I don't believe it was an oversight on the teacher's part at all. Had they called more witnesses to testify to that, then I would believe it.

nursebeeme
05-01-2012, 12:43 PM
No proof the teacher could not have made an oversight that day either. She testified to the best of her recollection .... but ... I hope the fact that she broke down crying on the stand does not leave room for her questioning herself, deep down inside? MOO

are you meaning the teacher? That the teacher should be questioning herself on the inside?

you lost me

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 12:43 PM
recap of what happened this morning

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/30/19698706.html

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 12:44 PM
So what does that mean for the case? Will the jury go into deliberations soon since Derstine only called one witness?

Mike Knoll: @guest - I believe it will take time to prepare closings and the judge needs time to prepare his charge to the jury - which could also take a day to deliver.

nursebeeme
05-01-2012, 12:45 PM
oh that is true... they will want time to prepare closings... so most likely not this afternoon....

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 12:47 PM
Will the jury be immediately sequestered once they go into deliberation?

Mike Knoll: - yes.


are they discussing legal arguments? or is court in general recessed until 2:30? why not just adjourn until tomorrow if there are no more witnesses to call?

Mike Knoll: @guest - legal arguments right now. then lunch. at 2:30 I assume the jury will hear the plan for the next few days.


will the closing statements be on this live update too?

Mike Knoll: @guest - absolutely.


Has any of raffertys family been in court during the trial?

Mike Knoll: - according to Rafferty's lawyer, no.

Oldsoul2
05-01-2012, 12:47 PM
Hope so! Hope they can end today and start deliberations but I doubt it. Derstine will probably want more time.

To do what? He should know the law, he is a criminal defense lawyer, that if you are present you are an accessory to murder and if you do not come forward if you were in fact a pawn in the crime, you do not have a defense and you are just as responsible as the person you were with. Come on, law 101, I'm not a lawyer. This is probably why the first one walked IMO

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 12:48 PM
just wondering but why couldn't the crown call rafferty to the stand?

Only defense is allowed to call accused Don't have to testify against yourself @bergie8ca why couldn't the crown call rafferty to the stand?

Hello_Kitty
05-01-2012, 12:48 PM
I don't think TLM ever went inside the school. The grandmom has a faulty memory MOO. She even admitted she thought TLM was Tori's Mom.

I remember when the video first came out... and then the sketch. We all thought the sketch looked like Tara, and Tara's friend. Tara even made a point of wearing her white coat to one of the early PC's. As we saw more video of the searches, we saw more and more women who had white coats and had long dark hair pulled back so tight it raised their eyebrows.

I never actually thought the sketch looked like tara at all, but it did look alot like tara's friend, and the lady at the candlelight vigil.

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 12:49 PM
ok so a week before the final verdict is reached?

Mike Knoll: - it's impossible to determine how long the jury could take to reach an unanimous decision on the three charges.

Found this useful for deliberation facts: http://blog.torontodefencelawyers.com/tag/juries-in-canada/

snoofer
05-01-2012, 12:50 PM
that is what I am thinking too Salem.. he didn't want to open any doors for cross by the Crown.

And what he had that he felt comfortable with cross was nothing..

MTR may have refused to plead for either lawyer but Derstine was still willing to take it to trial as it is MTR's right but knowing his client had little defense.

So maybe both thought he should plead, but one refused to be his lawyer if he didn't listen and one decided to still represent him even if he didn't plead. And maybe MTR wanted to leave the idea of testifying open depending on how the trial was going...and decided....hmmmm....no. MOO

myzzy
05-01-2012, 12:51 PM
..... If Tori was targeted. How would TLM know a mother or guardian wasn't outside waiting for her?


Exactly and if there is a Juror buying into this i would hope these questions would be bantered. What is reasonable and believable. That TLM was so sick and twisted she would walk right into a school to snatch a child while poor innocent MTR waited outside per her instruction as was just a shocked horrified duped chauffeur.

To be targeted one would have to know who they were kidnapping, I do not and i repeat DO NOT believe Tori's family are not responsible for Tori's death but there are several coincidences that make me wonder if maybe there are links that will later come out once this is all over.

I do not know if there are connection but if there are, this could explain her not worrying about someone waiting for Tori?

Flowercb
05-01-2012, 12:51 PM
Hope so! Hope they can end today and start deliberations but I doubt it. Derstine will probably want more time.

For What? He should probably have his closing argument made already. Had enough time with just one witness to prepare.MOO

Salem
05-01-2012, 12:51 PM
No proof the teacher could not have made an oversight that day either. She testified to the best of her recollection .... but ... I hope the fact that she broke down crying on the stand does not leave room for her questioning herself, deep down inside? MOO

To me - the difference is that the teacher TALKED to Tori - she remembers the conversation, kwim? Different from just observing someone, while you are distracted getting your own kids in the car, etc.

Salem

Ardy
05-01-2012, 12:51 PM
What exactly are you implying? That the teacher lied? I am not sure I understand what it is you are saying. I agree we should not make fun of the gramma. However I believe if the teacher says that TS left the school alone that she left the school alone. I believe that the Gramma's memories have been altered as she has watched the video over and over and read information in the paper. I believe an expert witness in this field would testify that her memories are warped due to the conditions imposed on her. I also believe there would be some sort of surveilence of her entering the school IMO.

I am not implying anything.

The grandmother clearly saw TLM go into the school.

She notified the police as soon as she heard about the abduction.....twice.

She saw the videos "after" she was interviewed by the police.

I would like to know how TLM could be in the school wandering the halls and nobody saw her there..........in a big white puffy jacket??????

Was TLM in the school helping VS get dressed?

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/07/9380111-sun.html

Her parents expressed surprise yesterday at how their little girl, known for being "pokey," made it off the school grounds so fast with a stranger no one noticed.

The videotape from the high school shows Tori and the unidentified woman walking north on Fyfe at 3:32 p.m., about two minutes after the girl left school.

"That seems very strange," McDonald said. When they lived two doors from the school, her daughter didn't get home until about 3:45 p.m. she said. "She's pokey. She takes her time putting her coat on. She talks to all her friends. I found it very, very odd that at 3:32 she was fully dressed, had her bag and was up the hill."

Stafford said he can't believe parents, bus drivers, classmates and others watched Tori leave with a perfect stranger without noticing something amiss.

"Somebody has had to see something. Now, I'd just like somebody to start talking and we can bring out daughter home."

JMO..................

nursebeeme
05-01-2012, 12:53 PM
To me - the difference is that the teacher TALKED to Tori - she remembers the conversation, kwim? Different from just observing someone, while you are distracted getting your own kids in the car, etc.

Salem

exactly... The teacher also KNEW Tori...

snoofer
05-01-2012, 12:53 PM
So what does that mean for the case? Will the jury go into deliberations soon since Derstine only called one witness?

Mike Knoll: @guest - I believe it will take time to prepare closings and the judge needs time to prepare his charge to the jury - which could also take a day to deliver.

didn't they have all weekend to prepare closing? My gosh they only called one witness; what work was that??? (Rolls eyes) MOO

sillybilly
05-01-2012, 12:56 PM
We won't know until more info comes out, but IMO Derstine had so very little to work with, that MTR might not even be able to appeal on the grounds of ineffective counsel, i.e. any review of the facts to try to support an appeal would find that no other lawyer could have done any more than DD >> "Appeal Denied".

Speaking of which ... if there is an immediate appeal launched, is there still a publication ban on the info we have not heard yet?

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 12:57 PM
oh that is true... they will want time to prepare closings... so most likely not this afternoon....

So why didn't they send the jury home instead of an extended lunch break? He said he only had one witness and that was it.

What will they do this afternoon?

OhSoCurious
05-01-2012, 12:57 PM
BBM

What about all of the other people in and outside of the school who didn't see TLM go in/out? I don't believe it was an oversight on the teacher's part at all. Had they called more witnesses to testify to that, then I would believe it.

They just said on the live news at noon that the Grandmother DID NOT want to testify for defense. I feel she testified with full intent and integrity. MOO

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 12:57 PM
The fact his family isnt there and hasnt been there the whole time is now clear because none of them were witnesses for the defence. I think they knew he was guilty and dont want anything to do with them, or I can be open minded and say they didnt want to be hounded by the press or identified. However I believe they knew the type of person he was and believe he is guilty of this disgusting murder of a child.

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 12:58 PM
We won't know until more info comes out, but IMO Derstine had so very little to work with, that MTR might not even be able to appeal on the grounds of ineffective counsel, i.e. any review of the facts to try to support an appeal would find that no other lawyer could have done any more than DD >> "Appeal Denied".

Speaking of which ... if there is an immediate appeal launched, is there still a publication ban on the info we have not heard yet?

Good question

Bravo
05-01-2012, 12:58 PM
MTR may have refused to plead for either lawyer but Derstine was still willing to take it to trial as it is MTR's right but knowing his client had little defense.

So maybe both thought he should plead, but one refused to be his lawyer if he didn't listen and one decided to still represent him even if he didn't plead. And maybe MTR wanted to leave the idea of testifying open depending on how the trial was going...and decided....hmmmm....no. MOO

Agree. We are aware of the CSI effect perhaps we are just as guilty wanting The Perry Mason moment effect LOL Derstine only had what he had to work with and we have no idea how difficult Rafferty may have been as a Client.

JayFriend
05-01-2012, 12:58 PM
bbm

You're absolutely right nurse.
Not making a plea deal was aother big mistake Derstine made

guess Derstine will be running something by Heeney...right through lunch

jmo

Maybe he did try, but the Crown felt they had a slam dunk and didn't want to give MTR any break.

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 12:59 PM
They just said on the live news at noon that the Grandmother DID NOT want to testify for defense. I feel she testified with full intent and integrity. MOO


Agreed however she wasnt a reliable witness due to two interviews where the information she brought forth was different. JMO

Alison
05-01-2012, 01:02 PM
I am not implying anything.

The grandmother clearly saw TLM go into the school.

She notified the police as soon as she heard about the abduction.....twice.

She saw the videos "after" she was interviewed by the police.

I would like to know how TLM could be in the school wandering the halls and nobody saw her there..........in a big white puffy jacket??????

Was TLM in the school helping VS get dressed?

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/07/9380111-sun.html

Her parents expressed surprise yesterday at how their little girl, known for being "pokey," made it off the school grounds so fast with a stranger no one noticed.

The videotape from the high school shows Tori and the unidentified woman walking north on Fyfe at 3:32 p.m., about two minutes after the girl left school.

"That seems very strange," McDonald said. When they lived two doors from the school, her daughter didn't get home until about 3:45 p.m. she said. "She's pokey. She takes her time putting her coat on. She talks to all her friends. I found it very, very odd that at 3:32 she was fully dressed, had her bag and was up the hill."

Stafford said he can't believe parents, bus drivers, classmates and others watched Tori leave with a perfect stranger without noticing something amiss.

"Somebody has had to see something. Now, I'd just like somebody to start talking and we can bring out daughter home."

JMO..................

Respectfully bolded my me. That is what I ask myself. That is also why I come to the conclusion that TLM did not enter the school MOO. TS was rushing that day because she had a movie date with some girls in her new house!! I would have been quite excited myself when I was her age. MOO. Between the Gramma and Teacher, I would weigh heavily in favour of the teachers testimony, as oppsed to the Grammas.
I also believe gramma clearly saw someone enter the school, it just was not TLM IMO

snoofer
05-01-2012, 01:02 PM
Good question

not sure if anything to appeal; I mean the defense cannot lie or make up a defense..it has to be based on fact. AND maybe defense could find no one to get up on the stand and say anything that would be defensive of MTR. Can't knit a witness :O) MOO

Tink
05-01-2012, 01:03 PM
When the teacher said "she went out the door" did she mean the door of the school or of the classroom? Maybe Tori met TLM in the hall?

If you believe the grandmother, maybe TLM started to go in the school, saw some teachers standing around and decided that might get her in trouble, and went back outside to wait for an unattended child?

If you think she targetted Tori, how did she know that on this day, Tori would be walking alone?

Do you think possibly MR asked her to find him a young girl, and TLM remembered having met Tori so went after her? But still, how would she know Tori would be walking alone for the first time ever?

Honestly, it makes the most sense to me that she was looking for any little girl alone, and because Tori had gone back for her earrings, she came out on her own (her classmates already gone). She invited Tori to come see puppies. I imagine that if it had turned out Tori's mother was waiting for her down the block, TLM would have just quickly walked away.

Tink

Alison
05-01-2012, 01:03 PM
A question. Can the Crown recall witnesses before closing. I would call the teacher to drive home that TS left alone. JMO

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 01:03 PM
They just said on the live news at noon that the Grandmother DID NOT want to testify for defense. I feel she testified with full intent and integrity. MOO


Of course the poor woman did not want to testify for the accused child rapist and murderer!

How horrible!

Another victim, the way I see it.

JMO

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 01:04 PM
It makes no sense that she was targeted however there are a lot of coincidences IMO

sillybilly
05-01-2012, 01:04 PM
Maybe he did try, but the Crown felt they had a slam dunk and didn't want to give MTR any break.

A plea deal would still be a decision left up to the accused, regardless of what his lawyer advised or what the Crown wanted. I do think the Crown felt they had a good case, and the infamous "deal with the Devil" is probably never far from their minds.

KMouse
05-01-2012, 01:04 PM
IMO, because of her memory issues? Credibility? I'm guessing her interview with LE was wishy washy.

I don't mean the above in a mean way. Eye witnesses are sometimes unreliable and I think this may be one of those cases.

ITA I threw that out there because I too believe that the Crown didn't find this woman's eye witness account to be rock solid.

OhSoCurious
05-01-2012, 01:05 PM
Agreed however she wasnt a reliable witness due to two interviews where the information she brought forth was different. JMO

Can you please post the information stating she was not a reliable witness? I must have missed that determination. Thanking you in advance MOO

nursebeeme
05-01-2012, 01:06 PM
So why didn't they send the jury home instead of an extended lunch break? He said he only had one witness and that was it.

What will they do this afternoon?

not sure? A tweet upstream said they most likely would get instruction about how the rest of the case will progress? It has also been tweeted that they are arguing legal matters over the longer lunch break.

I think everyone was surprised at how quick the defense rested.... so I wouldn't think they would jump thru hoops to get the jurors sequestered by this afternoon (most likely they all planned on going home tonight)

moo

sillybilly
05-01-2012, 01:08 PM
not sure if anything to appeal; I mean the defense cannot lie or make up a defense..it has to be based on fact. AND maybe defense could find no one to get up on the stand and say anything that would be defensive of MTR. Can't knit a witness :O) MOO

But they can knit a defence snoofer. Does not have to be proven facts, only suggestions, hypotheticals, and innuendo that could create reasonable doubt.

MOO

Salem
05-01-2012, 01:08 PM
We won't know until more info comes out, but IMO Derstine had so very little to work with, that MTR might not even be able to appeal on the grounds of ineffective counsel, i.e. any review of the facts to try to support an appeal would find that no other lawyer could have done any more than DD >> "Appeal Denied".

Speaking of which ... if there is an immediate appeal launched, is there still a publication ban on the info we have not heard yet?

It will depend on the verdict. I dont' think an appeal can be launched until the case is over, unless there is an appeal filed against the results of any evidence motions. Otherwise - the appeal has to wait for the verdict. Lucky for us, as soon as the jury is sequested, they will start publishing all the info from the many, many legal arguments.

Salem

OhSoCurious
05-01-2012, 01:08 PM
It makes no sense that she was targeted however there are a lot of coincidences IMO

After following this case from day one of Tori's abduction and reading here during the trial and the time in between, I think I have seen on many occasions that posters have effectively posted how or why Tori could have been targeted. MOO

nursebeeme
05-01-2012, 01:08 PM
Can you please post the information stating she was not a reliable witness? I must have missed that determination. Thanking you in advance MOO

you have to read back thru the thread to the testimony (back a few pages iirc)... peeps posted the tweets directly from the courtroom

JayFriend
05-01-2012, 01:09 PM
Witness also said she thought it was TS's mother, and said she was one bus length away, then two bus length away. She isn't really a credible witness, she is too confused about what she saw.
It's funny how memory can play tricks, especially if someone has a preconceived notion of what happened. Tara was giving her 1 o'clock PCs, wore a white coat and had long dark hair. Many people suspected she was involved, even the police. Maybe the witness's imagination coloured her memory. JMO

Thinkzerz
05-01-2012, 01:09 PM
Respectfully bolded my me. That is what I ask myself. That is also why I come to the conclusion that TLM did not enter the school MOO. TS was rushing that day because she had a movie date with some girls in her new house!! I would have been quite excited myself when I was her age. MOO. Between the Gramma and Teacher, I would weigh heavily in favour of the teachers testimony, as oppsed to the Grammas.
I also believe gramma clearly saw someone enter the school, it just was not TLM IMO

She also saw the woman in the white coat with Tori walking up the hill. I think it is safe to say she saw the same person. JMO

Salem
05-01-2012, 01:09 PM
They just said on the live news at noon that the Grandmother DID NOT want to testify for defense. I feel she testified with full intent and integrity. MOO

I don't think anyone doubts her honesty or integrity. However, the fact remains that her testimony was inconsistent with the police report and is inconsistent with the teacher's testimony.

The jury will have to weigh these things when they deliberate.

Salem

Alison
05-01-2012, 01:10 PM
After following this case from day one of Tori's abduction and reading here during the trial and the time in between, I think I have seen on many occasions that posters have effectively posted how or why Tori could have been targeted. MOO

As well as good arguments as to why she was not targeted.

Thinkzerz
05-01-2012, 01:11 PM
This poor woman came forward to help with what she saw and defence tore it to pieces.

Yody04
05-01-2012, 01:11 PM
I'm totally confused. What is this? Is that all? If Derstine haven't said already that this is his only witness I would think that there is still a bomb shell to come. I really don't get it. Did MR know that this is all what his lawyer can do for him?

I feel like being in the middle of a joke.

No family from him present...that says a lot.

What a circus. I really don't know what to say. We all expected so much today and that is it? stunned

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 01:12 PM
After following this case from day one of Tori's abduction and reading here during the trial and the time in between, I think I have seen on many occasions that posters have effectively posted how or why Tori could have been targeted. MOO

Like I said there are a lot of coincidences

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 01:13 PM
you have to read back thru the thread to the testimony (back a few pages iirc)... peeps posted the tweets directly from the courtroom

Thanks. I was going to type it all out but I dont have time for that.

Oldsoul2
05-01-2012, 01:14 PM
I think what Derstine tried to prove was that if TLM went into the school boldly than she was in fact in charge and that his theory that MR had no clue what was about to transpire would make sense, except you can't have one witness who had two different police reports with no evidence to back the testimony.

snoofer
05-01-2012, 01:15 PM
I'm totally confused. What is this? Is that all? If Derstine haven't said already that this is his only witness I would think that there is still a bomb shell to come. I really don't get it. Did MR know that this is all what his lawyer can do for him?

I feel like being in the middle of a joke.

No family from him present...that says a lot.

What a circus. I really don't know what to say. We all expected so much today and that is it? stunned

Maybe MTR saw how badly it was going in the media and told his lawyer; just forget it...I'm done, let's wrap it up and just let the jury decide on what they have. MOO MTR defense was not that he wasn't present; but that he was too afraid to do anything to help TS and was his justification for his lies and cover up. Maybe defense just hoped at least one juror would feel sorry for him and not convict. MOO

Think it will be a FAIL for defense and MTR. JMO

Alison
05-01-2012, 01:15 PM
She also saw the woman in the white coat with Tori walking up the hill. I think it is safe to say she saw the same person. JMO

I do not think it is safe to say. I could have been someone else with a white coat. It could have been someone else with a white sweater. I also think it would be odd that she was the only person that saw TLM enter. Also TLM is a criminal, while not exactly a rocket scientist I do not believe she would have taken such a great risk. People think VS must have been targeted because apparently TLM walked into the school. So how would she know where to go to find TS? How would she know which locker was hers? How would she know the layout of the school? IMO she would not have been that bold. Much easier to wait outside and let them come to you.

Ardy
05-01-2012, 01:16 PM
Respectfully bolded my me. That is what I ask myself. That is also why I come to the conclusion that TLM did not enter the school MOO. TS was rushing that day because she had a movie date with some girls in her new house!! I would have been quite excited myself when I was her age. MOO. Between the Gramma and Teacher, I would weigh heavily in favour of the teachers testimony, as oppsed to the Grammas.
I also believe gramma clearly saw someone enter the school, it just was not TLM IMO

But grandma saw the identical person who entered the front doors of the school, walking down the road with VS.

The witness was sitting only feet away from the doors. She is driving a van......so her eyes can't be that bad.

In my mind, the jury is going to accept the testimony of a credible witness, and believe that TLM did enter the school.

I doubt TLM would enter the school for a random abduction, so I believe that she knew she was going to take VS.

I do wonder why no other school staff, teachers, or parents standing outside waiting for their kids came forward.

I hope it isn't because they didn't want to subject themselves to ridicule.

How this testimony is involved in the defense summary......we shall see.

JMO...........

OhSoCurious
05-01-2012, 01:18 PM
[/B]

As well as good arguments as to why she was not targeted.

I was simply responding to someone questioning all the coincidences and the possibility that Tori was in fact targeted. I was not commenting on the balance of comments both ways on the history of posts. MOO

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 01:18 PM
The 60-year-old told the court she saw the little girl happily leaving school that day with a woman in a white jacket.

The older woman, whose identity is protected by a publication ban, is the only witness who will testify on behalf of Rafferty.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/05/01/witness-testifies-for-defence-at-tori-stafford-trial/

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 01:19 PM
I truly dont think he gave his lawyer much to work with. I think he made up some story and the lawyer went with what he gave along with some google searches. JMO

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 01:19 PM
Can you please post the information stating she was not a reliable witness? I must have missed that determination. Thanking you in advance MOO

I wouldn't say this Grandmother was not a reliable witness...

but I do feel she was mistaken jmo

Under cross-examination the Crown pointed out that the grandmom's memory conflicted
with some earlier statements she made to police in April and May of 2009.


http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/30/19698706.html

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 01:20 PM
The witness told the court she was sitting and waiting in a car for her grandchildren and their mother to come out after school that day.

The woman was parked in the school’s driveway, near school buses that were being loaded with children.

That’s when she saw the woman in a white jacket with the little girl.

“The little girl who was with her was happy, skipping, talking a mile a minute,” said the witness. “I assumed that the person she was talking to was her mother.”

She said the dark-haired woman in the white jacket appeared had a “stern” look on her face.

“It seemed like she was on a mission,” said the witness.

Earlier, she had seen the same woman walk through the front doors of the elementary school. It had caught her attention because the woman was wearing a white ski jacket on a warm April day.

Under cross-examination, she was quizzed about whether or not these were the details she remembered of that day, or if her memory has been clouded by the extensive coverage of the high-profile case.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/05/01/witness-testifies-for-defence-at-tori-stafford-trial/

Salem
05-01-2012, 01:22 PM
But grandma saw the identical person who entered the front doors of the school, walking down the road with VS.

The witness was sitting only feet away from the doors. She is driving a van......so her eyes can't be that bad.

In my mind, the jury is going to accept the testimony of a credible witness, and believe that TLM did enter the school.

I doubt TLM would enter the school for a random abduction, so I believe that she knew she was going to take VS.

I do wonder why no other school staff, teachers, or parents standing outside waiting for their kids came forward.

I hope it isn't because they didn't want to subject themselves to ridicule.

How this testimony is involved in the defense summary......we shall see.

JMO...........

Just trying to understand the argument here. Are you saying that if it can be shown that Tori was targeted, then it logically follows that MR is not guilty of kidnapping, rape and murder? That all the charges rest on this one fact - if it is proven and jury relies on it in their deliberations?

Salem

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 01:23 PM
1:22
Mike Knoll:
@janice - yes. http://cdnsl.coveritlive.com/templates/coveritlive/images/icons/fb_share2.png
Tuesday May 1, 2012 1:22 Mike Knoll

1:22
http://cdnsl.coveritlive.com/templates/coveritlive/images/spacer.gif[Comment From janice janice : ]
will you report, here, the details of the judge's charge to the jury? http://cdnsl.coveritlive.com/templates/coveritlive/images/icons/fb_share2.png

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 01:25 PM
I wouldn't say this Grandmother was not a reliable witness...

but I do feel she was mistaken jmo

Under cross-examination the Crown pointed out that the grandmom's memory conflicted
with some earlier statements she made to police in April and May of 2009.


http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/30/19698706.html

Your right. I should have worded it as she was mistaken. My apologies for using unreliable. I wasnt meaning to cause a stir. Just saying the defence had one witness to prove his defendant was innocent and he just brings one out that I dont think made a difference and could have mistaken the things she did see. JMO

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 01:28 PM
I'm totally confused. What is this? Is that all? If Derstine haven't said already that this is his only witness I would think that there is still a bomb shell to come. I really don't get it. Did MR know that this is all what his lawyer can do for him?

I feel like being in the middle of a joke.

No family from him present...that says a lot.

What a circus. I really don't know what to say. We all expected so much today and that is it? stunned

I hear you. I was expecting all those alleged drug and gangster connections on the stand. One by one testifying how they were at the scene of the crime and it wasn't MR.

EOA turned out to be EI EI O

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 01:29 PM
GO RODNEY!!!!!!!!!!!! WOOHOOO!




Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Rodney Stafford on #Rafferty not testifying: "I think he's a coward" "Either way he was toast" #sl

Ardy
05-01-2012, 01:29 PM
This poor woman came forward to help with what she saw and defence tore it to pieces.

It puzzles me as to why the Crown didn't present the evidence.

The witness went to the police with this information days after the abduction.

She helped LE start looking for a woman with a white puffy coat, but her testimony wasn't credible enough for the Crown to put her on the stand?

Does Derstine now point to this witness...........and tell them that without him revealing the information, they wouldn't have heard this key testimony.

Does he ask the jury how much other information that doesn't suit the allegations, the Crown hasn't disclosed?

Powerful words in front of the jury........to create reasonable doubt.

JMO...........

CarrieBean
05-01-2012, 01:29 PM
Either way, I think Grandma's testimony is much ado about nothing.

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 01:31 PM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Rodney Stafford says Crown presented strong case. Not surprised #Rafferty didn't take stand #sl http://yfrog.com/odiltpgtj

http://yfrog.com/odiltpgtj:iphone

Flossie JMO
05-01-2012, 01:32 PM
I don't think anyone doubts her honesty or integrity. However, the fact remains that her testimony was inconsistent with the police report and is inconsistent with the teacher's testimony.

The jury will have to weigh these things when they deliberate.

Salem

Do you have link to police report? I don't seem to have that. I wnder if part of what is under the ban could possibly be a relationship between TLM and TM, and could she have possibly known TS was walking home by herself? And will the public get more info about the drug rip off TM testified about, and clarification about the "vindictive" comment? JMO

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 01:32 PM
Nil Köksal‏@nilkoksal (Köksal‏@nilkoksal)

Rodney Stafford: "Hopefully the jury sees what we all saw and there will be justice for Victoria"

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 01:32 PM
[Comment From Guest Guest : ]
I have asked this before, but just in case it was missed.. Was Tori's bottom clothing ever recovered?

Mike Knoll: @guest - not to my knowledge.

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 01:33 PM
Steven D'Souza‏@cbcsteve (D'Souza‏@cbcsteve)
Rodney Stafford on Rafferty not testifying: "I think he's a coward" "Either way he was toast"

snoofer
05-01-2012, 01:34 PM
Sounds like MTR has "taken his ball home and doesn't want to play anymore". MOO Doesn't want to sit through weeks more. JMO

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 01:35 PM
It puzzles me as to why the Crown didn't present the evidence.

The witness went to the police with this information days after the abduction.

She helped LE start looking for a woman with a white puffy coat, but her testimony wasn't credible enough for the Crown to put her on the stand?

Does Derstine now point to this witness...........and tell them that without him revealing the information, they wouldn't have heard this key testimony.

Does he ask the jury how much other information that doesn't suit the allegations, the Crown hasn't disclosed?

Powerful words in front of the jury........to create reasonable doubt.

JMO...........

Because it wasnt going to make a difference. They proved their point with evidence and all the people he had take the stand. JMO

Thinkzerz
05-01-2012, 01:37 PM
I do not think it is safe to say. I could have been someone else with a white coat. It could have been someone else with a white sweater. I also think it would be odd that she was the only person that saw TLM enter. Also TLM is a criminal, while not exactly a rocket scientist I do not believe she would have taken such a great risk. People think VS must have been targeted because apparently TLM walked into the school. So how would she know where to go to find TS? How would she know which locker was hers? How would she know the layout of the school? IMO she would not have been that bold. Much easier to wait outside and let them come to you.

I find it odd that only 2 people saw TLM and Tori walk away from the school. It seems not many witnesses saw TLM. She was there at the school area no matter what and only 2 people saw her? This is crazy that people are in such as fast pace life these days and don't see what is going on around them JMO.

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 01:38 PM
Do you have link to police report? I don't seem to have that. I wnder if part of what is under the ban could possibly be a relationship between TLM and TM, and could she have possibly known TS was walking home by herself? And will the public get more info about the drug rip off TM testified about, and clarification about the "vindictive" comment? JMO

If they had evidence of this maybe it would have been provided already with the Crown or when Derstine cross examined TM.

I am sure none of us will ever find out at this point and whatever comes out who knows if it is true or not.

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 01:38 PM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Rodney Stafford says Crown presented strong case. Not surprised #Rafferty didn't take stand #sl http://yfrog.com/odiltpgtj

http://yfrog.com/odiltpgtj:iphone

God Bless Tori's Family


...so sad...her Dad's hair has turned grey during this trial

JUCTICE is coming for Victoria Rodney

Ardy
05-01-2012, 01:38 PM
Just trying to understand the argument here. Are you saying that if it can be shown that Tori was targeted, then it logically follows that MR is not guilty of kidnapping, rape and murder? That all the charges rest on this one fact - if it is proven and jury relies on it in their deliberations?

Salem

IMO.....the jury has two choices.

Either they believe TLM's version of events, or they believe MR's.

The reason for the abduction is a key component of both their versions.

TLM claims she randomly selected a child, because she was under the influence of MR and was carrying out his wishes. Her abduction of VS under those conditions, strengthens her claims that MR sexually assaulted VS and murdered her (as per her first versions of events). As we no know that TLM confessed to the murder, MR can only be found guilty if he participated in the murder, ............or kidnapped or sexually assaulted VS.

If he is found not guilty of kidnapping or sexual assault, he cannot be found guilty of murder, as there was no proof of intent that a murder should take place, or would take place as a result of illegal acts.

MRs version is that TLM kidnapped VS deliberately to hold as collateral for a drug debt. His version of events after that initial contact supports that theory........true of false as it may be.

MR's lawyers are not fighting a murder charge, but the kidnapping and sexual assault.........because without them the murder charge fails.

JMO...........

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 01:39 PM
I find it odd that only 2 people saw TLM and Tori walk away from the school. It seems not many witnesses saw TLM. She was there at the school area no matter what and only 2 people saw her? This is crazy that people are in such as fast pace life these days and don't see what is going on around them JMO.

Its possible they always saw the Grandmother pick them up and never the mother so maybe seeing a younger person with her didnt set off any red flags. JMO

Salem
05-01-2012, 01:39 PM
Do you have link to police report? I don't seem to have that. I wnder if part of what is under the ban could possibly be a relationship between TLM and TM, and could she have possibly known TS was walking home by herself? And will the public get more info about the drug rip off TM testified about, and clarification about the "vindictive" comment? JMO

I don't have a link. The inconsistencies came out in the Crown's cross and was discussed in the tweets. I think the tweets are around pages 19-20ish.

Again, I'm having a hard time with the argument. What will be proven if it can be shown that TLM targeted TS? How does this absovle MR of the charges? I'm not understanding that?

Salem

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 01:40 PM
Anyone else think the <modsnip> was going to get on the stand, and backed out at the last minute?

JMO

tmhco
05-01-2012, 01:41 PM
Not one witness could testify that TM knew MR or that VS knew TLM. End of story. JMO

myzzy
05-01-2012, 01:41 PM
I think why the defence witness could not be mistaken is because of the jacket, she seem to state that the reason she noticed her was because she was wearing A jacket, and it stood out because it was a warmer day. If it was a outright winter jacket then yes it would stand out, but if it was a wind breaker then even on warm days i see jackets..This information was before the video of the jacket, so its quite credible

Seeing someone in a winter jacket on a warm day is like seeing a winter jacket in Florida on a cruise ship, it would stand out.

snoofer
05-01-2012, 01:42 PM
God Bless Tori's Family


...so sad...her Dad's hair has turned grey during this trial

JUCTICE is coming for Victoria Rodney

Yes, he has aged through this trial. Rodney's kids can be proud of their father and how he has set an example of how to soldier on in the face of great tragedy. What a good example for his son's. I think we will be hearing from Rodney Stafford many times over the next years; he has come into his own and has so much to offer others in a similar crisis. MOO I remember when he rode his bike across country, I felt like every revolution of his pedals was a tear shed for Tori. It was powerful example of how to positively push through tribulation and positive coping skills. JMO With all the talk of drugs and tragedy in lives during this trial; he delivered a needed message for this community about developing good coping skills and for young people, that drugs are not the answer. IMO

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 01:42 PM
IMO.....the jury has two choices.

Either they believe TLM's version of events, or they believe MR's.

The reason for the abduction is a key component of both their versions.

TLM claims she randomly selected a child, because she was under the influence of MR and was carrying out his wishes. Her abduction of VS under those conditions, strengthens her claims that MR sexually assaulted VS and murdered her (as per her first versions of events). As we no know that TLM confessed to the murder, MR can only be found guilty if he participated in the murder, ............or kidnapped or sexually assaulted VS.

If he is found not guilty of kidnapping or sexual assault, he cannot be found guilty of murder.

MRs version is that TLM kidnapped VS deliberately to hold as collateral for a drug debt. His version of events after that initial contact supports that theory........true of false as it may be.

MR's lawyers are not fighting a murder charge, but the kidnapping and sexual assault.........because without them the murder charge fails.

JMO...........



Well I truly think they will believe TLM"s version. Credible or not the crown had evidence to back almost everything she said and the Defence had ummmm how do I put this....NOTHING!

I can see if everything TLM testified about had nothing to do with the evidence. I would think the same thing but it did infact have a huge impact on what happened that fateful day.

Sorry I really have never felt that MR was as "Duped" as people say he was. He was a manipulator and a liar.

sillybilly
05-01-2012, 01:43 PM
If they had evidence of this maybe it would have been provided already with the Crown or when Derstine cross examined TM.

I am sure none of us will ever find out at this point and whatever comes out who knows if it is true or not.

Even IF the drug debt scenario is true, it is likely that neither side was allowed to present info in that regard <modsnip>.

kaas
05-01-2012, 01:43 PM
It appears to me that the defence to the charges is that:
There is no definitive proof that sexual assault took place. As per the defence questioning the deposit of semon and blood being capable of deposit at different times.
TLM admitting to murdering Victoria herself. Not MR.
That it was TLM who abducted the child, not MR. Therefore negating the kidnapping etc charges against him.


I have been following this case from the beginning and cannot imagine the horror and grief that the families must be suffering. We searched back fields, back lanes etc. and our hearts broke.
A child should be able to walk home from school or to a friends house without fear.
A parent should be secure in knowing that their child is safe to do so.

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 01:43 PM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
@SusanaGomezBaez As far as I've seen, he hasn't shown much emotion or reaction today

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 01:44 PM
Not one witness could testify that TM knew MR or that VS knew TLM. End of story. JMO

Exactly. TLM was young she was approachable and TS didnt fear her because she was female. There is no link even with all the coincidences and the circles that they all ran in. JMO

myzzy
05-01-2012, 01:45 PM
I don't have a link. The inconsistencies came out in the Crown's cross and was discussed in the tweets. I think the tweets are around pages 19-20ish.

Again, I'm having a hard time with the argument. What will be proven if it can be shown that TLM targeted TS? How does this absovle MR of the charges? I'm not understanding that?

Salem

i take it as 3 seperate charges, not all or one, regardless they all hold a great length of prison time, but proving each one is what i think the defence is trying seperatly and if MR is only charged with Murder its better then being convicted of rape and kidnapping.???

Kidnapping - Charge 1 ( Defence witness i believe is to prove it was not a kidnapping)

Rape - Charge 2 ( Yet to come as the defence has not rested, just adjured)

Murder - Charge 3 ( Yet to come as the defence has not rested, just adjured)

antiquegirl
05-01-2012, 01:45 PM
I find today's witness perfectly credible. There were two minor discrepancies between her original statement to LE and her testimony: At first she said she couldn't remember the colour of the woman's pants. She later said they were dark. She seemed fixated on the white jacket (thought it was inappropriate for the weather), so she obviously was paying less attention to the pants. I don't think this is a big deal.


AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court
On April 11th, she was asked detailed questions. She was asked about clothing. Said she couldn't tell what colour the woman's pants were.



.James Armstrong‏@jamesarmstrong7
Witness says girls pants were darker than white.

The second discrepancy involved the distance the witness saw the woman from. She estimated about two bus lengths in her LE statement. She now says one, or less than two. Were these short buses or long ones? We don't know. Even if they were the longer vehicles, it's not a long distance when one is sitting in a car with nothing else to look at - just a few meters.


AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court
Carnegie notes it was less than two bus lengths, according to her. She says it was less.


AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court
She was one bus length away from the woman in white, she says.

This was a reluctant witness for the defence who applied for and received a publication ban on her name, for obvious reasons. The fact that she's a grandmother has no bearing on anything. I know some very young, vibrant grandmothers. Regardless, her eyesight or age was not questioned. I see no reason to disbelieve her testimony.

Had there been any other mother fitting this description (especially the white jacket) picking up a child on April 8th at OSPS, I am positive LE would have found and questioned them within the past three years. The Crown would have put them on the stand during their turn in order to discredit today's witness's testimony.


Avery Moore‏@AveryFreeFMNews
She says she is sure it was the same woman she saw go into the school. Same jacket, hair pulled back.


Steven D'Souza‏@cbcsteve
Witness being asked about identifying woman in white coat. Says she's sure it was same person who entered school

As for Tori's teacher's testimony, I do not think she was lying. I think she and the other teachers were very busy at that time getting the children ready to leave and putting them on buses. As someone else posted, she could have meant the classroom door, not the outside door. TLM could have been lurking in an empty classroom without being noticed.

I DO believe that this proves that Tori was targeted and the reasons have been stated many times. The implications of TLM entering the school are huge and have also been explained, so there's no need for me to repeat them.

JMO

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 01:47 PM
I have always told my daughter and I am sure you all have told yours. You hang around trouble you will be in trouble. You with someone who steals you will be in trouble as if you stole yourself.

They both were trouble and both had evil sides to them. Their worlds collided that day at the pizza shop and their sick twisted minds decided that they need to do what they have always wanted to do. He knew TLM would act that is why he also thought that she would take the fall for him...His mistake I think was his big mouth....."you'd do anything for a little bit of love" Some how I think that was the straw that broke the camels back. JMO.... Lesson learned for him I guess.

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 01:47 PM
Anyone else think the <modsnip> was going to get on the stand, and backed out at the last minute?

JMO

Wondergirl
I never believed for a moment that Rafferty would take the stand

the <modsnip> that he is wouldn't allow it

jmo

OhSoCurious
05-01-2012, 01:48 PM
I don't have a link. The inconsistencies came out in the Crown's cross and was discussed in the tweets. I think the tweets are around pages 19-20ish.

Again, I'm having a hard time with the argument. What will be proven if it can be shown that TLM targeted TS? How does this absovle MR of the charges? I'm not understanding that?

Salem

I think it might change the Crown's declaration of motive? (to rape a child) If the motive was actually a drug debt and poor Tori was targeted. Just guessing? MOO

Kamille
05-01-2012, 01:50 PM
IMO.....the jury has two choices.

Either they believe TLM's version of events, or they believe MR's.

The reason for the abduction is a key component of both their versions.

TLM claims she randomly selected a child, because she was under the influence of MR and was carrying out his wishes. Her abduction of VS under those conditions, strengthens her claims that MR sexually assaulted VS and murdered her (as per her first versions of events). As we no know that TLM confessed to the murder, MR can only be found guilty if he participated in the murder, ............or kidnapped or sexually assaulted VS.

If he is found not guilty of kidnapping or sexual assault, he cannot be found guilty of murder, as there was no proof of intent that a murder should take place, or would take place as a result of illegal acts.

MRs version is that TLM kidnapped VS deliberately to hold as collateral for a drug debt. His version of events after that initial contact supports that theory........true of false as it may be.

MR's lawyers are not fighting a murder charge, but the kidnapping and sexual assault.........because without them the murder charge fails.

JMO...........

MR doesn't have a "version". All the jury heard were suggestions by his attorney which is not evidence. And all those suggestions were denied by the direct witness.

So you're suggesting that the jury should use the suggestions or closing arguments of his attorney with absolutely no witnesses or evidence to back it up as a reason to acquit?

Isn't that the same argument as to what happened in the CA trial?

MOO

KMouse
05-01-2012, 01:54 PM
It puzzles me as to why the Crown didn't present the evidence.

The witness went to the police with this information days after the abduction.

She helped LE start looking for a woman with a white puffy coat, but her testimony wasn't credible enough for the Crown to put her on the stand?

Does Derstine now point to this witness...........and tell them that without him revealing the information, they wouldn't have heard this key testimony.

Does he ask the jury how much other information that doesn't suit the allegations, the Crown hasn't disclosed?

Powerful words in front of the jury........to create reasonable doubt.

JMO...........

Because she has made conflicting statements and there has not been anybody else that has supported her testimony.

So Derstine is going to try and poke a hole in the Crown's case with one witness. One witness who has given conflicting statements. Who is going to believe this one person without any supporting testimony?

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 01:55 PM
Do reporters gather during breaks and discuss their opinions of the case, or does everyone keep to themselves

Mike Knoll: - it's been two months now. Reporters have become friends. Yes, the trial is discussed.

Comment
It could take hours, days, weeks before a verdict comes, once it does will the media covering be given enough time/ notice to get to the court house to cover the verdict?

Mike Knoll: @Mel - we'll be given enough time. It will be tight though.


Is there any international media there?

Mike Knoll: - not to my knowledge.


can TLM or rafferty be interviewed afterwards?

Mike Knoll: @guest - that's up to them and their lawyers. There's no law preventing it though.

so your saying maybe there could not be a verdict today ?? it will take some time

Mike Knoll: @cat - I can confidently say there will be no verdict today.


Will LFP (and other media) potentially have staff at the courthouse during deliberations to be on 'verdict watch' so they can inform reporters/producers that the jury has a question or that there could be a verdict?

When the jury is sequestered, will they talk only at specific times (ie 9-5) or as much as they can / want until a verdict is reached? Could a verdict be announced say at midnight?


Mike Knoll: @Alison - much of this depends on the judge's preference/instructions. Yes, a verdict could be reached at midnight. I've never seen that situation but assume that it wouldn't be delivered in court until the next morning.


Any surprise expressed from media and family/friends of Tori Stafford that the defence wrapped up so quickly? Was it expected that more evidence and witnesses would be called?

Mike Knoll: - we were waiting to hear if Rafferty was going to testify - so yes, there was surprise. There would have been either way.

nettie_82
05-01-2012, 01:55 PM
MR doesn't have a "version". All the jury heard were suggestions by his attorney which is not evidence. And all those suggestions were denied by the direct witness.

So you're suggesting that the jury should use the suggestions or closing arguments of his attorney with absolutely no witnesses or evidence to back it up as a reason to acquit?

Isn't that the same argument as to what happened in the CA trial?

MOO

The jury can only use those suggestions Derstine made if the witness adopts them as truth...which TLM did not.

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 01:57 PM
1:37
Mike Knoll:

@guest - we have video of Rodney's comments today and, all going well, should have them online in a couple of hours.

Tuesday May 1, 2012 1:37 Mike Knoll

1:37
http://cdnsl.coveritlive.com/templates/coveritlive/images/spacer.gif[Comment From Guest Guest : ]

What does Rodney have to say about today?

Tuesday May 1, 2012 1:37 Guest

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 01:58 PM
1:51
Mike Knoll:

Lots of questions about what is seen as a skimpy defence. Important to remember the phrase "Burden of Proof" that lies on the Crown in Canadian courts as the accused is innocent until proven guilty.

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 01:58 PM
Mike Knoll: Lots of questions about what is seen as a skimpy defence. Important to remember the phrase "Burden of Proof" that lies on the Crown in Canadian courts as the accused is innocent until proven guilty.

Mike Knoll: @Mike - I'm assuming we'll get a schedule for the next few days of proceedings.

Mike Knoll: @SD - well this chat is better than twitter because it is pulling the twitter feed and I'm quite engaged as far as feedback goes. So it's like Twitter Plus. We will continue to do this every day of court. There are more days to come - it seems as if readers believe this to be the end. The closing statements and the charge to the jury are VERY important and frankly, a reader could just start reading at that point and get the whole story.

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 01:59 PM
1:53
Mike Knoll:

@SD - well this chat is better than twitter because it is pulling the twitter feed and I'm quite engaged as far as feedback goes. So it's like Twitter Plus. We will continue to do this every day of court. There are more days to come - it seems as if readers believe this to be the end. The closing statements and the charge to the jury are VERY important and frankly, a reader could just start reading at that point and get the whole story.

Tuesday May 1, 2012 1:53 Mike Knoll

1:51
http://cdnsl.coveritlive.com/templates/coveritlive/images/spacer.gif[Comment From SD SD : ]

Is this chat as good as twitter? Or will there be no more live chats?

Tuesday May 1, 2012 1:51 SD

otto
05-01-2012, 02:00 PM
Still catching up but ...

Temp Woodstock 2009 ... 4-9 C is cold enough for a winter coat

Mean Temperature 4 °C
Max Temperature 9 °C
Min Temperature -2 °C

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/CYXU/2009/4/8/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 02:00 PM
I really dont think this was a drug debt at all. JMO

It is easy to say drug debt when they were all druggies and JG ripped off someone. $400 is nothing to kill someone over however I heard of someone killing someone over a $1.

I really think that they needed a defence and MTR was quick to say the parents were crack heads etc. I think the origin of this defence is from MTR.

There were reasons why the Crown didnt ask the witness about MTR and being around their children and what caused the break up. I am sure the defence put a stop to that. JMO

There is a lot that hasnt come out but sorry from what I have seen and heard with the witnesses and the evidence I dont see how he could not be found guilty regardless.

He was the driver and I am sure the plan, TLM knew the school to go to, She took the Tori, easy as pie since she was young and not scary, and they drove off. He could have dropped her off so many times but he didnt. He was there was she was killed because I know a phone addict when I see one and there was no way he wouldnt have been on the phone if he wasnt busy doing something like killing an innocent child. I bet you that guy even brought the phone with him into the gym he was that obsessed by it. So no I dont think there will be anything that changes how I feel. He was there during the whole entire thing and they "ACTED TOGETHER" That is all the judge wants to know. Doesnt matter the extent of the murder just if they acted together and the Crown made that very clear that they did and the defence came up with nothing.

Well why didnt he drop her off?? I guess he would have to say why he didnt do the right thing, but he is a coward so I really dont see him going anywhere but behind bars for 25yrs hopefully.

otto
05-01-2012, 02:02 PM
I didn't follow the early part of the trial, but I assumed that the babysitting comments related to opening statements from the defence. Regarding Opening Statements from defence (mentioned early in thread):

"Opening statements:

After a court employee reads the criminal charges to the jurors, the prosecution and then the defense make opening statements to the judge or jury. These statements provide an outline of the case that each side expects to prove. The Crown has an obligation to aid the jury in arriving at the truth and cannot be biased or impartial in her opening statement."

http://www.julianhermida.com/polnotesoverview.htm

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 02:03 PM
well, you cannot argue with the forensics (just sayin')

Worth repeating.

Kamille
05-01-2012, 02:06 PM
I didn't follow the early part of the trial, but I assumed that the babysitting comments related to opening statements from the defence. Regarding Opening Statements from defence (mentioned early in thread):

"Opening statements:

After a court employee reads the criminal charges to the jurors, the prosecution and then the defense make opening statements to the judge or jury. These statements provide an outline of the case that each side expects to prove. The Crown has an obligation to aid the jury in arriving at the truth and cannot be biased or impartial in her opening statement."

http://www.julianhermida.com/polnotesoverview.htm

The defense did not have an opening statement. The babysitting angle was suggested by them during TLM's cross. She denied it.

MOO

Bravo
05-01-2012, 02:07 PM
All i can say is I'm glad Derstine didn't go with "Ugly Coping" LOL Sorry just trying to lighten the load.

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 02:10 PM
10:37
http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/1862937618/trialavatar_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/RaffertyLFP)RaffertyLFP:

The woman said the white jacket woman came out of school door near where the teachers (http://search.twitter.com/search?q=teachers) were putting kids on the buses [via Twitter] http://cdnsl.coveritlive.com/templates/coveritlive/images/icons/fb_share2.png

Tuesday May 1, 2012 10:37 RaffertyLFP


RaffertyLFP: Her grandchildren came out of the front door after the white jacket woman went in the front

Her grandkids came out after the woman in white approached. They left the parking lot.


She says she never saw the woman leave the school. There are three exits.


Something is DEFINITELY up with Grandma's testimony. I think she is confused, and not a reliable witness, unless the tweets are incorrect.

1. She says the woman came out of the school.

2. She says the woman went in the front, then her Grandchildren came out (how could she see the woman leave, then?)

3. She says she never saw the woman leave the school.

Which is it?

JMO

Bravo
05-01-2012, 02:10 PM
I feel for this witness today. I believe she believes what she saw. Eye witness is one of the least reliable. Any group of us here could be witness to the same scenario and report back. I can say with great certainty our reports would differ. It is the human factor.

impatientredhead
05-01-2012, 02:11 PM
From what I can see Grandma can only help with the kidnapping charge. That of course assumes that defense has a really stellar closing argument. Maybe he has a snowballs chance in hell of selling the image that Tori skipped along with a woman she seemed to know (to see puppies with a woman her mother had discussed making puppies with).

Maybe maybe maybe the jury says okay they looked normal to everyone else out there, why not MR.

But the murder charge? There is no glossing over the fact that you stood by while your girlfriend crushed a childs skull with a HAMMER. A hammer you pulled money out of an ATM and sat in the car with said child while she bought it.

Seems to me defense is not triaging the charges very well.
Kidnapping is the least of his problems.

Allanae
05-01-2012, 02:11 PM
I am a bit behind here. I would think the teacher is a more credible witness about Tori leaving the school. I would assume the teacher was one of the first people contacted (even before the tape was found to have Tori walking away with someone) and her accounts of that afternoon would be accurate. More accurate than a grandmother observing a whole driveway/sidewalk of children leaving a school and all the people walking up to and away from the school. If you are driving, I don't care how slow you are going, you can not catch all the details about a child "skipping" behind someone. Especially with two children in the vehicle that were just picked up!

In the videos that day it looks like a lot of people were wearing big warm jackets too. The mother that was waiting for her children (who testified) at the top of the hill was wearing a big bulky coat too, which looks like it was a big coat down past the bum, as a few other people seen in video. I think her saying that she noticed the jacket because of the nice weather makes her a bit wishy washy as I think most people would have been at the beginning of April, including most children at the school! All JMO of course.

Ardy
05-01-2012, 02:14 PM
I was hoping MR would take the stand, but didn't seriously believe he would.

There is no requirement for him to take the stand, and the jury will take no inference from it. They will directed by the judge that it doesn't infer innocence of guilt.

Sitting on the witness stand and saying you didn't do something, is about equivalent to telling the police you are innocent..........doesn't do much good.

Very few defendants testify, and juries perform their duties.

JMO..........

Thinkzerz
05-01-2012, 02:16 PM
Something is DEFINITELY up with Grandma's testimony. I think she is confused, and not a reliable witness, unless the tweets are incorrect.

1. She says the woman came out of the school.

2. She says the woman went in the front, then her Grandchildren came out (how could she see the woman leave, then?)

3. She says she never saw the woman leave the school.

Which is it?

JMO

These at tweets and i am sure more tweets say she only saw the women enter the school. Spelling mistakes and wording are not going to be accurate. Fortunately.

Bravo
05-01-2012, 02:17 PM
I was hoping MR would take the stand, but didn't seriously believe he would.

There is no requirement for him to take the stand, and the jury will take no inference from it. They will directed by the judge that it doesn't infer innocence of guilt.

Sitting on the witness stand and saying you didn't do something, is about equivalent to telling the police you are innocent..........doesn't do much good.

Very few defendants testify, and juries perform their duties.

JMO..........

Agree. Typically Defendants dont as you point out. I truly thought this may have been a case where the Defendant did. I'm betting Derstine put him thru the ropes of a mock run and he failed miserably.

Macright
05-01-2012, 02:17 PM
I find today's witness perfectly credible. There were two minor discrepancies between her original statement to LE and her testimony: At first she said she couldn't remember the colour of the woman's pants. She later said they were dark. She seemed fixated on the white jacket (thought it was inappropriate for the weather), so she obviously was paying less attention to the pants. I don't think this is a big deal.





The second discrepancy involved the distance the witness saw the woman from. She estimated about two bus lengths in her LE statement. She now says one, or less than two. Were these short buses or long ones? We don't know. Even if they were the longer vehicles, it's not a long distance when one is sitting in a car with nothing else to look at - just a few meters.





This was a reluctant witness for the defence who applied for and received a publication ban on her name, for obvious reasons. The fact that she's a grandmother has no bearing on anything. I know some very young, vibrant grandmothers. Regardless, her eyesight or age was not questioned. I see no reason to disbelieve her testimony.

Had there been any other mother fitting this description (especially the white jacket) picking up a child on April 8th at OSPS, I am positive LE would have found and questioned them within the past three years. The Crown would have put them on the stand during their turn in order to discredit today's witness's testimony.





As for Tori's teacher's testimony, I do not think she was lying. I think she and the other teachers were very busy at that time getting the children ready to leave and putting them on buses. As someone else posted, she could have meant the classroom door, not the outside door. TLM could have been lurking in an empty classroom without being noticed.

I DO believe that this proves that Tori was targeted and the reasons have been stated many times. The implications of TLM entering the school are huge and have also been explained, so there's no need for me to repeat them.

JMO


hate when real life gets in the way...good post AG and my thoughts exactly..still trying to catch up though...JMO think LE "overlooked or passed by this witness because it blew a hole in their theory that TLM grabbed the first available child...always believed she knew exactly who she was looking for and for a reason other than a play toy for MR...JMO who knows who was visiting CM that day and TLM could have overheard something..JMO

impatientredhead
05-01-2012, 02:18 PM
I have always told my daughter and I am sure you all have told yours. You hang around trouble you will be in trouble. You with someone who steals you will be in trouble as if you stole yourself.

They both were trouble and both had evil sides to them. Their worlds collided that day at the pizza shop and their sick twisted minds decided that they need to do what they have always wanted to do. He knew TLM would act that is why he also thought that she would take the fall for him...His mistake I think was his big mouth....."you'd do anything for a little bit of love" Some how I think that was the straw that broke the camels back. JMO.... Lesson learned for him I guess.

I think the 18 women she didn't know about broke the camels back. Once they were seperated and he couldn't work his "charm" on her. The state is telling her about all these other women and she is by herself, hurt and getting mad... and we know she has a temper problem.

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 02:18 PM
What the defense hasn't said, speaks louder than what it has said (which isn't much!)

I guess Derstine just wants to summarize the entire defense in a closing argument, without anything being subject to cross examination (though the Crown does get to address, since it is entitled to present last now.)

Stingy defense, if you ask me.

JMO

Macright
05-01-2012, 02:20 PM
Its possible they always saw the Grandmother pick them up and never the mother so maybe seeing a younger person with her didnt set off any red flags. JMO


well I would have thought the opposite..if grandmother usually picked her up and this day a younger person..well that should have set off red flags. JMO

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 02:21 PM
Linda Nguyen‏@LindaNguyenPN

#ToriStafford (https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23ToriStafford)'s father, Rodney, tells media that he's disappointed #Rafferty (https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23Rafferty) did not testify http://twitpic.com/9g3wbn (http://twitpic.com/9g3wbn)

https://twitpic.com/show/large/9g3wbn

nettie_82
05-01-2012, 02:22 PM
Are there always victim impact statements in a guilty verdict? If so, when are these typically done, at sentencing?

impatientredhead
05-01-2012, 02:23 PM
Will there be victim impact statements, and if so when are these done typically?

In the States they are done after the verdict is in but before sentencing is handed down. I think Canada does the same

sillybilly
05-01-2012, 02:24 PM
Are there always victim impact statements in a guilty verdict? If so, when are these typically done, at sentencing?

Prior to sentencing (if he is found Guilty, of course.).

Kamille
05-01-2012, 02:24 PM
I think the 18 women she didn't know about broke the camels back. Once they were seperated and he couldn't work his "charm" on her. The state is telling her about all these other women and she is by herself, hurt and getting mad... and we know she has a temper problem.

She did not know about all these women when she confessed. At most she heard about one or two.

MOO

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 02:24 PM
2:20
Mike Knoll:

@Friend - after the judge's charge to the jury they are instructed that's one of the first things they should do.

Tuesday May 1, 2012 2:20 Mike Knoll

2:19
http://cdnsl.coveritlive.com/templates/coveritlive/images/spacer.gif[Comment From Friend from Woodstock Friend from Woodstock : ]

When does the jury select a foreman/woman

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 02:25 PM
can Rafferty speak at any point if he whishes to

Mike Knoll: @Guest - should he be found guilty the judge will give him a chance to say something - he won't have to say anything if he doesn't want to.



Is there a minimum and/or maximum time as to how long the jury can deliberate?

Mike Knoll: - no. On a case like this the judge would want a verdict no matter how long it takes.



Will the additional coverage of details not reportable right now begin once the jury is sequestered?

Mike Knoll: - yes.

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 02:26 PM
2:21
Mike Knoll:

@Guest - should he be found guilty the judge will give him a chance to say something - he won't have to say anything if he doesn't want to.

2:21
http://cdnsl.coveritlive.com/templates/coveritlive/images/spacer.gif[Comment From Guest 5 Guest 5 : ]

I have asked you a bunch of times today can Rafferty speak at any point if he whishes to

Kamille
05-01-2012, 02:26 PM
well I would have thought the opposite..if grandmother usually picked her up and this day a younger person..well that should have set off red flags. JMO

Did this witness today even testify that she knew Victoria? I didn't think she did.

MOO

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 02:27 PM
More q & a's:



2:26
Mike Knoll:
@guest - it's up to the judge. But in 1st-degree murder trials the sentence is pretty much set in stone and victim impact statements essential aid the judge in determining a sentence.


2:25
http://cdnsl.coveritlive.com/templates/coveritlive/images/spacer.gif[Comment From Guest Guest : ]
mike do you know if in canada they do victim statements when the accused is found guilty? I know this has happened before but not sure if it was just american cases



2:24
Mike Knoll:
@steveo - yes.


2:23
http://cdnsl.coveritlive.com/templates/coveritlive/images/spacer.gif[Comment From steveo steveo : ]
Will the additional coverage of details not reportable right now begin once the jury is sequestered?




2:23
Mike Knoll:
@Alison - no. On a case like this the judge would want a verdict no matter how long it takes.


2:23
http://cdnsl.coveritlive.com/templates/coveritlive/images/spacer.gif[Comment From Alison Alison : ]
Is there a minimum and/or maximum time as to how long the jury can deliberate?

Kamille
05-01-2012, 02:27 PM
I was hoping MR would take the stand, but didn't seriously believe he would.

There is no requirement for him to take the stand, and the jury will take no inference from it. They will directed by the judge that it doesn't infer innocence of guilt.

Sitting on the witness stand and saying you didn't do something, is about equivalent to telling the police you are innocent..........doesn't do much good.

Very few defendants testify, and juries perform their duties.

JMO..........

Very few defendants are innocent or they wouldn't be on trial in the first place.

MOO

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 02:28 PM
Is Rafferty able to appeal if he is found guilty? If so, does a new trial take place?

Mike Knoll: - if found guilty, he has an automatic right to appeal. If the appeal goes through, he would have the right to a new trial.


mike do you know if in canada they do victim statements when the accused is found guilty? I know this has happened before but not sure if it was just american cases

Mike Knoll: @guest - it's up to the judge. But in 1st-degree murder trials the sentence is pretty much set in stone and victim impact statements essential aid the judge in determining a sentence.

Dmman
05-01-2012, 02:28 PM
I'm totally confused. What is this? Is that all? If Derstine haven't said already that this is his only witness I would think that there is still a bomb shell to come. I really don't get it. Did MR know that this is all what his lawyer can do for him?

I feel like being in the middle of a joke.

No family from him present...that says a lot.

What a circus. I really don't know what to say. We all expected so much today and that is it? stunned

ITA! I personally believed he plead not guilty in hopes he'd be released at some point per-trial. He had no defense to the crimes he's accused of committing! For a split second this morning, I actually thought Grandmom was going to testify she went along for the ride to MT Forest with MR & TLM & Tori and that she followed MR on his "walk" while TLM murdered little Tori. I was not expecting nothing from Derstine!

JayFriend
05-01-2012, 02:29 PM
It puzzles me as to why the Crown didn't present the evidence.

The witness went to the police with this information days after the abduction.

She helped LE start looking for a woman with a white puffy coat, but her testimony wasn't credible enough for the Crown to put her on the stand?

Does Derstine now point to this witness...........and tell them that without him revealing the information, they wouldn't have heard this key testimony.

Does he ask the jury how much other information that doesn't suit the allegations, the Crown hasn't disclosed?

Powerful words in front of the jury........to create reasonable doubt.

JMO...........

This witness's testimony is a bit disturbing because it doesn't agree with the teacher's testimony. I'm guessing the Crown didn't want to make either witness look bad by calling them both. It also opens up a can of worms about security at the school. Was the teacher negligent? I'm sure she thinks so and blames herself. Is this witness imagining what she saw? I bet this witness was in the Crown's disclosure and Derstine grabbed her in an effort to shift more blame on TLM and away from his client. I don't think the Crown would have had anything to gain from this witness, but the defence possibly has.

Bravo
05-01-2012, 02:29 PM
Ok. Say i give you folks who truly believe Tori was targeted and MJR was a mere Chauffeur in the beginning. Then what? Even if i give you the fact that Tori was not raped? MJR was present for the cruel inhumane horrific murder of an innocent 8 year old child. He did nothing. Nothing except help cover it all up. Then proceed to live his life as he had.

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 02:31 PM
So, let's say MR is found guilty. How long after that will the sentencing be?

Mike Knoll: - if he is found guilty of 1st-degree murder, he'd be sentenced right away as there is only one sentence. Life with no chance of parole for 25 years.


(I should know this but...) If the jury is hung, what happens?

Mike Knoll: - that would lead to a mistrial.

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 02:32 PM
How does one become a dangerous offender in Canada. Is this decided by the judge at sentencing

Mike Knoll: - it's a separate hearing and is for people who show a pattern of violence. It doesn't make sense to apply for such status on someone who is hypothetically guilty of 1st-degree murder as they're in jail for life.

Macright
05-01-2012, 02:33 PM
She did not know about all these women when she confessed. At most she heard about one or two.

MOO


JMO with the mind set of TLM one other would set her off and a path of revenge..JMO

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 02:34 PM
Would a mistrail mean he walks and can no longer be prosecuted??

Mike Knoll: - he'd be retried. He'd have to apply for a bail review and be successful before he could ever "walk" pre-re-trial.


Is he only charged with murder?

Mike Knoll: - abduction and sexual assault as well.

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 02:36 PM
Mike .. When are the details that are now "unreportable" able to be reported and will the LFP be reporting them at that time?

Mike Knoll: - once the jury is sequestered we will report on all they didn't hear.


If Rafferty was found guilty and sentenced to life with no chance of parole for 25 yrs ....does that mean he would serve 2/3rds of his time and then can approach the parole board for release??

Mike Knoll: - he'd serve 25 years before facing the parole board.


Mike!! Can a deal be cut with the Crown at this point in the trial???

Mike Knoll: - no! not after 9 weeks of trial. It would seem a bit silly.

Jezbel
05-01-2012, 02:36 PM
I am not implying anything.

The grandmother clearly saw TLM go into the school.

She notified the police as soon as she heard about the abduction.....twice.

She saw the videos "after" she was interviewed by the police.

I would like to know how TLM could be in the school wandering the halls and nobody saw her there..........in a big white puffy jacket??????

Was TLM in the school helping VS get dressed?



RS&BBM
To clarify, she did not say she went to police before watching the surveillance video, she saw the video first.

Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Witness says next day she heard about the missing girl. Saw surveillance video of abduction. Decided to talk to police. #Rafferty

3h Linda Nguyen ‏ @LindaNguyenPN
Witness says woman who was walking w little girl was same woman she saw go into the school #ToriStafford #Rafferty

3h .James Armstrong ‏ @jamesarmstrong7
Witness came forward and shared whatshe had seen with the police. Within a week of April 8 #rafferty

3h .James Armstrong ‏ @jamesarmstrong7
Witness says she recognized woman in the white jacket from famous security footage #rafferty

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 02:39 PM
why is there "unreportable" evidence?

Mike Knoll: @molly - we can only report on what the jury hears. While the jury is the judge of the case, the judge is in charge of the law and he determines what evidence is fair and what can be presented before the jury hears it. If he determines that evidence is not admissible, it's not part of the trial proper.


The jury is not yet back in the courtroom.

Macright
05-01-2012, 02:39 PM
Did this witness today even testify that she knew Victoria? I didn't think she did.

MOO


I think if you reread the post I was quoting you would understand more clearly my response. JMO sorry I don't understand your question to me either as TS wasn't even mentioned either by the original poster or me. just as being the party being picked up.....JMO respectfully.....

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 02:40 PM
well I would have thought the opposite..if grandmother usually picked her up and this day a younger person..well that should have set off red flags. JMO

True. I am not sure I would think twice if it was a teenage girl. JMO.

PS) Now I would of course

otto
05-01-2012, 02:41 PM
I don't think anyone doubts her honesty or integrity. However, the fact remains that her testimony was inconsistent with the police report and is inconsistent with the teacher's testimony.

The jury will have to weigh these things when they deliberate.

Salem

I'm speed reading ... so missing details ... but wasn't the discrepancy in testimony based on whether the witness remembered the colour of TLM's pants?

If the witness had never said that TLM entered the school, the prosecution should have asked why she didn't mention that in her first police report. If the prosecution didn't ask that question, it leads me to believe that this witness stated from the beginning that she believed the white coat woman entered the school.

My impression is that the defence wants to argue that because TLM entered the school to collect the child, he fully believed that TLM was babysitting. When he observed how TLM treated the child, he was horrified and afraid ... intended to report it to the parents. When the babysitting ended in murder, he was so terrified that he kept silent - fearful that TLM or her gang buddies would murder him too.

Just my 2 cents ... for now ...

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 02:41 PM
Can you clarify what life in Canada is? The accused only has to serve 25 years correct?

Mike Knoll: - Life is life. You face parole at 25 years and if it's granted you still remain under control of corrections Canada.

RaffertyLFP: Long lunch break. No sign yet that court is about to reconvene

Alison
05-01-2012, 02:41 PM
Yes, he has aged through this trial. Rodney's kids can be proud of their father and how he has set an example of how to soldier on in the face of great tragedy. What a good example for his son's. I think we will be hearing from Rodney Stafford many times over the next years; he has come into his own and has so much to offer others in a similar crisis. MOO I remember when he rode his bike across country, I felt like every revolution of his pedals was a tear shed for Tori. It was powerful example of how to positively push through tribulation and positive coping skills. JMO With all the talk of drugs and tragedy in lives during this trial; he delivered a needed message for this community about developing good coping skills and for young people, that drugs are not the answer. IMO

This......... made me cry. My daughter and Tori are in and around the same age. He has handled this with such grace. He really is an old soul.

Bravo
05-01-2012, 02:41 PM
Personally i cant wait for the Jurors to be sequestered. Then we can hear all the arguments the Jurors could not. Bet there are some doozies there.

Jezbel
05-01-2012, 02:42 PM
Do you have link to police report? I don't seem to have that. I wnder if part of what is under the ban could possibly be a relationship between TLM and TM, and could she have possibly known TS was walking home by herself? And will the public get more info about the drug rip off TM testified about, and clarification about the "vindictive" comment? JMO

Both TM and TLM have testified that Tori did NOT know TLM so no, there will be nothing to say that they do under a publication ban. What was testified to on the stand regarding that is what has been reported.

JMO

Ardy
05-01-2012, 02:43 PM
Very few defendants are innocent or they wouldn't be on trial in the first place.

MOO

Actually I read somewhere that in Canada the conviction rate at trial is quite low. Most convictions are the result of plea bargaining, and according to the Supreme Court of Canada, too many of them are innocent people who should have gone to trial.......but couldn't afford the legal fees or were under severe restrictions while awaiting trial.

JMO............

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 02:44 PM
life means a minimum of 25 years, not a maximum ....is that correct Mike?

2:43 Mike Knoll: @guest - correct



Mike - if life is life, why is McLintic serving her sentence at Genest. Isn't Genest designed for rehabilitation?

Mike Knoll: - she's at the Grand Valley Institution for Women in Kitchener - a federal prison for women. SHe was at Genest back in '09.

otto
05-01-2012, 02:45 PM
But grandma saw the identical person who entered the front doors of the school, walking down the road with VS.

The witness was sitting only feet away from the doors. She is driving a van......so her eyes can't be that bad.

In my mind, the jury is going to accept the testimony of a credible witness, and believe that TLM did enter the school.

I doubt TLM would enter the school for a random abduction, so I believe that she knew she was going to take VS.

I do wonder why no other school staff, teachers, or parents standing outside waiting for their kids came forward.

I hope it isn't because they didn't want to subject themselves to ridicule.

How this testimony is involved in the defense summary......we shall see.

JMO...........

I've actually had a problem with the school's responsibility in this from the start. I've spent years picking up children from school and I have seen it all. There are supposed to be teachers on the grounds when children are let out of school, but I've seen plenty of days when there were none. Teachers are often busy packing up for the day or preparing for a meeting ... they are not always where they are supposed to be - especially the tenured ones.

I recall one day where someone else's child was injured, crying and everyone ignoring him. There were no teachers outside at dismissal time and parents were focused on their own children. The child was bleeding so I took him to the washroom, cleaned him up, cheered him up and then took him back out of the school. No one intervened or did anything. I kept thinking that someone was going to ask me what I was doing, but no one did.

Another time my nephew thought that recess was lunch and accidentally he went home. No one noticed that he was missing until noon ... apparently no one was supervising the playground at recess so no one saw him leave.

The school I'm referring to is a good school in a good area, but teachers were sloppy ... when I heard about Victoria's disappearance, my first thought was that one of the teachers was not doing his/her job.

That said, I'm not convinced that the witness really saw the white coat person enter the school or that it was TLM.

Ardy
05-01-2012, 02:47 PM
Ok. Say i give you folks who truly believe Tori was targeted and MJR was a mere Chauffeur in the beginning. Then what? Even if i give you the fact that Tori was not raped? MJR was present for the cruel inhumane horrific murder of an innocent 8 year old child. He did nothing. Nothing except help cover it all up. Then proceed to live his life as he had.

I believe the defense assertion was that MR was away from the car when TLM murdered VS and came back to discover what had happened.

JMO..........

Bravo
05-01-2012, 02:48 PM
Rodney in Court is engaged and sat on the edge of his seat. His eyes were always on the Witness or the evidence on the Monitor. His Mother Doreen is one who just exudes warmth. I treasure the purple ribbon she gave me in Court. The family is treated with incredible respect by the Court. Just some observations i wanted to share.

otto
05-01-2012, 02:48 PM
It puzzles me as to why the Crown didn't present the evidence.

The witness went to the police with this information days after the abduction.

She helped LE start looking for a woman with a white puffy coat, but her testimony wasn't credible enough for the Crown to put her on the stand?

Does Derstine now point to this witness...........and tell them that without him revealing the information, they wouldn't have heard this key testimony.

Does he ask the jury how much other information that doesn't suit the allegations, the Crown hasn't disclosed?

Powerful words in front of the jury........to create reasonable doubt.

JMO...........

It seems to me that the crown did not need this witness to prove the case. The defence needs this witness to prove the babysitting theory.

This has nothing to do with accusing the prosecution of not disclosing evidence/witnesses since the defence is only aware of this witness due to disclosure.

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 02:48 PM
Comment From ITGuy ITGuy : ]
FYI: Life imprisonment in Canada means that an offender will be under federal supervision, whether in prison or in the community, for the rest of his or her life. High treason and first degree murder carry a mandatory sentence of life imprisonment with a parole ineligibility period of 25 years. Previously, in the case of high treason or first-degree murder (where the offender has been convicted of a single murder) offenders could have their parole ineligibility period reduced to no less than 15 years under the Faint hope clause which has since been repealed

Mike Knoll: @ITGuy - thanks

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 02:51 PM
What's going on? It's almost 3 !

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 02:52 PM
Dirk Derstine spoke to the media at the onset of the trial, and he said that the public would be surprised at what would be stated in the court room. Was he speaking about the defense case or the complete trial. I do not find anything surprising about the defense strategies thus far??

Mike Knoll: @Trinity3 - well that's what lawyers do. But I would guess that Derstine was referring to TLM saying she struck the fatal blows




RaffertyLFP: Court back in session. No jury yet.

snoofer
05-01-2012, 02:52 PM
Can you clarify what life in Canada is? The accused only has to serve 25 years correct?

Mike Knoll: - Life is life. You face parole at 25 years and if it's granted you still remain under control of corrections Canada.

RaffertyLFP: Long lunch break. No sign yet that court is about to reconvene

so it means the prisoner's natural life; unless after 25 years they are successful getting parole?? JMO

impatientredhead
05-01-2012, 02:52 PM
I believe the defense assertion was that MR was away from the car when TLM murdered VS and came back to discover what had happened.

JMO..........

They were outside.
You would have to go a LONG way away from the car to not hear the screams of someone being beat to death. And if you are walking that far away it is because you know something horrible is happening. And if you know, you are culpable.

matou
05-01-2012, 02:52 PM
That's it??? That's all???? no more witnesses???? I think everyone in Woodstock and the environs had a white coat that winter/spring of 2009. Tara had one, heck, I think even Precious the Dog had one. Buh bye MTR. JMO

snoofer
05-01-2012, 02:53 PM
Dirk Derstine spoke to the media at the onset of the trial, and he said that the public would be surprised at what would be stated in the court room. Was he speaking about the defense case or the complete trial. I do not find anything surprising about the defense strategies thus far??


RaffertyLFP: Court back in session. No jury yet. [via Twitter]

is it possible defense "threw in the towel" because they think they have a better chance in appeal? JMO

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 02:55 PM
did rafferty's lawyer have access to tlm before getting on the stand?

Mike Knoll: - no -- she was a Crown witness.

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 02:55 PM
is it possible defense "threw in the towel" because they think they have a better chance in appeal? JMO

No. I think there is still a problem regarding the last witness. JMO

nursebeeme
05-01-2012, 02:56 PM
I was wondering where you were matou! Yes, there was only one witness :eek: and no opening statement....

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 02:59 PM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
With construction at London courthouse, media parking is at a premium http://yfrog.com/mnbp2krj

http://yfrog.com/mnbp2krj:iphone

Alice Ramnit
05-01-2012, 02:59 PM
Is the break still going on? Wondering if they will resume this afternoon?

Heliotrope
05-01-2012, 03:00 PM
What a day, and more to come.

If I try to put myself in the shoes of someone who is going to kidnap a child, and I combine it with my experience with waiting outside a school for my own child, I would say this:

- it's a chaotic scene - parents everywhere, many chatting in small groups, kids come out in clusters, as often the smaller one are let out earlier or later so they're not mowed down in the stampede

- if you were looking for someone on their own, and who didn't appear to be meeting someone, you might have to hover for a while

- you don't want to leave an impression on anyone, so you keep moving, never making eye contact, never standing still long enough for someone to really lock eyes on you or strike up a conversation

Maybe she ducked into the school and then turned around and went out soon after, just so that she could keep moving, then walked down to the primary door.

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 03:00 PM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Court back in session with legal arguments, can't report as jury isn't present #sl

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 03:00 PM
What if both the defence and crown needed/wanted the same witness?

Mike Knoll: - the Crown always gets to go first so the individual would be a Crown witness and the defence gets to cross-examine.


So does the jury accept that TLM confessed that she dealt the fatal blows or could they take what she actually stated when she was questioned by the police.

Mike Knoll: - that's up to the jury. both statements have been submitted as evidence.


Why do they never start when they say they are going to?

Mike Knoll: @MA - they are currently in session without the jury present.



Legal arguments are ongoing. Jury not in the courtroom, so details can't be provided.

myzzy
05-01-2012, 03:01 PM
Ok. Say i give you folks who truly believe Tori was targeted and MJR was a mere Chauffeur in the beginning. Then what? Even if i give you the fact that Tori was not raped? MJR was present for the cruel inhumane horrific murder of an innocent 8 year old child. He did nothing. Nothing except help cover it all up. Then proceed to live his life as he had.


then he should convicted of those crimes, i do not believe he is 100% innocent and should be sentenced according to his crimes that he did commit or can be proven he committed. If he did not kidnap Tori but did rape and murder her then he should be convicted of 2 of the 3 charges.

matou
05-01-2012, 03:03 PM
I was wondering where you were matou! Yes, there was only one witness :eek: and no opening statement....

I'm catching up now but I see the overall gist of what occurred today. No bombshell, no real evidence at all, IMO. On WS alone we saw so many women wearing wearing white that spring, at the news pressers, vigil, etc. This was a parent who went in to get her kid, IMO. TLM was outside waiting. Anyone know if the entrances to Oliver Stephens have cameras at the doors?

Alison
05-01-2012, 03:03 PM
It seems to me that the crown did not need this witness to prove the case. The defence needs this witness to prove the babysitting theory.

This has nothing to do with accusing the prosecution of not disclosing evidence/witnesses since the defence is only aware of this witness due to disclosure.

I agree this is what they are trying to prove. I however find it a redundant point as he would not have witnessed her enter the school as he was hidding out in a parking lot.
If he had been waiting outside the doors and saw her enter then I would perhaps buy the babysitting story.
This witness did nothing to help his case IMO.
I also still do not beleive TLM entered the school, far too risky IMO.
(Otto I just piggy backed off your post to say what I felt about the testimonry and what they want us to believe :)

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 03:04 PM
Is Rafferty in court room when jury not there?

Mike Knoll: @guest - yes. It's his trial. He has to be present for all of it. Just like when he went to the crime scene with the jury.



I've heard conflicting reports on if the defence has witnesses...Since they called one witness they get to close last or vice versa?

Mike Knoll: @noname - by calling the one witness they will now close first.



How does the outcome of this trial impact TLM? Are there any legal repercussions that could affect her sentence?

Mike Knoll: - no impact. She got life in prison and no chance of parole for 25 years - that's max.

otto
05-01-2012, 03:05 PM
Actually I read somewhere that in Canada the conviction rate at trial is quite low. Most convictions are the result of plea bargaining, and according to the Supreme Court of Canada, too many of them are innocent people who should have gone to trial.......but couldn't afford the legal fees or were under severe restrictions while awaiting trial.

JMO............

Where did you read that? That would suggest that prisons are full of innocent, poor victims of the justice system - simply not true.

There is plea bargaining, but that usualy happens because the evidence is overwhelming and the accused is hoping for a reduced sentence. Plea bargaining is also used when there are two suspects and one is testifying against the other.

I'd sure like to see a link to statements from the Supreme Court that "too many innocent people ... couldn't afford the legal fees" ... legal aid is in place for anyone that cannot afford legal fees.

Bravo
05-01-2012, 03:08 PM
then he should convicted of those crimes, i do not believe he is 100% innocent and should be sentenced according to his crimes that he did commit or can be proven he committed. If he did not kidnap Tori but did rape and murder her then he should be convicted of 2 of the 3 charges.

Exactly. My point being i find it a reach that he was just along for the ride until the point of Murder. It's beyond a reach or a stretch. Waiting for Judges instructions to clarify charges.

tmhco
05-01-2012, 03:09 PM
I believe the defense assertion was that MR was away from the car when TLM murdered VS and came back to discover what had happened.

JMO..........

There is no evidence to back up any of the defence's utterances. The jury cannot even consider it, yet you take it as fact. Why do you think the defence has not produced any witnesses to back up their theory? THEY DON'T EXIST! JMO

Alison
05-01-2012, 03:10 PM
3 things:

1. I am not the Alison sending tweet questions to Mike Knoll.
2. Once the jury is sequestered we will become privy to evidence excluded from the trial.I do not understand this though because what if their is a mistrial and they have to redo the trial with all this excluded evidence now out there?
3. Please forgive my spelling today, I have had multiple brain farts :)

antiquegirl
05-01-2012, 03:11 PM
Still catching up but ...

Temp Woodstock 2009 ... 4-9 C is cold enough for a winter coat

Mean Temperature 4 °C
Max Temperature 9 °C
Min Temperature -2 °C

http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/CYXU/2009/4/8/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

No two people feel temperature the same way. (My mother always wanted me to dress more warmly than I wanted to when I was a kid, for instance.) The actual temperature in Woodstock on that day is not the point. The point was that the witness thought it was too warm for that puffy jacket. It could have been -20º, but if she found it strange enough to notice so that it stuck in her memory, that was the point. It made her notice. That and the fact that she wasn't familiar to her.

JMO

nursebeeme
05-01-2012, 03:12 PM
3 things:

1. I am not the Alison sending tweet questions to Mike Knoll.
2. Once the jury is sequestered we will become privy to evidence excluded from the trial.I do not understand this though because what if their is a mistrial and they have to redo the trial with all this excluded evidence now out there?
3. Please forgive my spelling today, I have had multiple brain farts :)

bbm: ita....it really is like putting the toothpaste back in the tube (impossible)

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 03:12 PM
The fact is a child was taken and at some point he knew she wasnt babysitting that child anymore (if you buy that scenario) he could have let her go. At home depot, at the location where he knew and he should have gone to the police after if it happened the way he said it happened.

He chose not to do anything but hide evidence or destroy it.

I dont think those actions before or after can be explained. JMO

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 03:13 PM
RaffertyLFP: Jury being brought back to court.

After a lengthy delay, jurors now returning to the courtroom.

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 03:13 PM
The <modsnip> balked at testifying and left Derstine holding a big bag of nothing!

JMO

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 03:14 PM
RaffertyLFP: Justice Heeney tells jury he has report jurors pursued by reporters and videotaped

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 03:15 PM
RaffertyLFP: Justice Heeney tells jury he has report jurors pursued by reporters and videotaped

WHAT?? are you kidding me?

myzzy
05-01-2012, 03:15 PM
shakes head

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 03:15 PM
Heeney tells jurors about an "upsetting event". Some members of the media recorded them leaving the courthouse on video.

Jurors must have privacy protected, he says. Heeney issues a publication ban on pictures and video. Says they will be released.

RaffertyLFP: "Nothing of this nature will happen again," judge says.

RaffertyLFP: No more evidence will be presented in case.

Dmman
05-01-2012, 03:16 PM
WHAT?? are you kidding me?


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh no!!!!!!

myzzy
05-01-2012, 03:16 PM
leave it to the media to do something so stupid. what are they thinking..

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 03:16 PM
RaffertyLFP: Justice Heeney tells jury he has report jurors pursued by reporters and videotaped

You have got to be kidding me! I find that hard to be believe, that the media would be exemplary in their reporting, and during the 1 day of defense, run after the jurors? Come on!

Is this what Derstine had to run by the Judge? Looking for a mistrial?

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 03:17 PM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
The jury is back and the defence has concluded it's case. Judge now instructing jury on upcoming schedule #sl

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 03:17 PM
Anyone who publishes the will be "dealt with severely".

Derstine reads an agreed apron fact. There were 326 students attending Oliver Stephens on April 8th, 2009. Derstine rests his case

Heeney tells the jury there is no more evidence.

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 03:17 PM
RaffertyLFP: Jury dismissed until Friday 10 a.m. when they will hear closing from defence. Monday will be the Crown's turn.

Jurors will not be back until Friday at 10 am for Derstine's closing. The crown's closing is on Monday. The jury charge will be Tuesday.

RaffertyLFP: Defence closes case.

RaffertyLFP: Judge will give his charge to jury on Tuesday

So, no more tweets until Friday, as jurors will not be at the courthouse until then.

robynhood
05-01-2012, 03:18 PM
LindaNguyenPN The defence has now officially closed their case #Rafferty

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 03:18 PM
You have got to be kidding me! I find that hard to be believe, that the media would be exemplary in their reporting, and during the 1 day of defense, run after the jurors? Come on!

Is this what Derstine had to run by the Judge? Looking for a mistrial?

Thats what I am thinking..................... thats low, and I hope it didnt happen

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 03:18 PM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Defence closing arguments go on Friday. Crown's closing goes on Monday, judge charges the jury on Tuesday #Rafferty #sl

Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 03:19 PM
RaffertyLFP: Jury dismissed until Friday 10 a.m. when they will hear closing from defence. Monday will be the Crown's turn.

Jurors will not be back until Friday at 10 am for Derstine's closing. The crown's closing is on Monday. The jury charge will be Tuesday.

You've got to be kidding me!!!

Do I sound like a broken record, or what?

Come on!

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 03:19 PM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
Jury back in court room. Derstine presents admission that says Apr. 8th there were 326 attending Tori's public school. #Rafferty

Macright
05-01-2012, 03:19 PM
JMO I don't know if I can explain this simply but IMO so far..the questions that Dirk has thrown out there on cross and the info he has garnered by asking short simple questions and not going around and around leads me to believe that this Dirk is a smart cookie..those questions and responses cannot be ignored because it leaves some doubt in the crown's case IMO... I believe he knows exactly what he is doing..he must because he has people wondering and talking....JMO It will be interesting to hear his closing remarks...JMO

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 03:20 PM
Avery Moore ‏ @AveryFreeFMNews
With that #Rafferty's lawyer Dirk Derstine rests his case. Jury excused until Friday morning when court will hear Derstine's closing remarks

Dmman
05-01-2012, 03:21 PM
Well I guess the jury would need time to digest the defense's case today :). It's just a waiting game from here on out.

myzzy
05-01-2012, 03:21 PM
Well im quite shocked they have nothing to bring to the table but then again Im very glad that they didnt try and twist anything and are allowing the evidence speak for itself which to me speaks volumes..


Tori Justice will be served and may you rest in peace and forever your smiling face will be etched into so many minds.

Bravo
05-01-2012, 03:22 PM
JMO I don't know if I can explain this simply but IMO so far..the questions that Dirk has thrown out there on cross and the info he has garnered by asking short simple questions and not going around and around leads me to believe that this Dirk is a smart cookie..those questions and responses cannot be ignored because it leaves some doubt in the crown's case IMO... I believe he knows exactly what he is doing..he must because he has people wondering and talking....JMO It will be interesting to hear his closing remarks...JMO

Agree. He got his points in during cross.

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 03:23 PM
Well I guess the jury would need time to digest the defense's case today :). It's just a waiting game from here on out.

OK that made me laugh out loud. hahahaha!