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Wondergirl
05-01-2012, 03:23 PM
I guess the Judge must need time to write his charge, because the Shafia charge to the jury was over 200 pages.

That is the only thing I can think of, why a 2 day break would be allowed, after what I can only surmise as a non-existant effort for defense.

You can see Justice for Victoria Stafford, just around the corner.

I only wish Justice could bring her back. :(

JMO

nettie_82
05-01-2012, 03:23 PM
Let's hope by this time next week we have a verdict and Justice is served in it's entirety!!!!!

Oldsoul2
05-01-2012, 03:23 PM
Whew.....moving on

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 03:24 PM
JMO I don't know if I can explain this simply but IMO so far..the questions that Dirk has thrown out there on cross and the info he has garnered by asking short simple questions and not going around and around leads me to believe that this Dirk is a smart cookie..those questions and responses cannot be ignored because it leaves some doubt in the crown's case IMO... I believe he knows exactly what he is doing..he must because he has people wondering and talking....JMO It will be interesting to hear his closing remarks...JMO

Thats what I think. His closing arguments have to do with all the weird questions he has asked witnesses and it will all come together. I dont think he is stupid at all just surprised really that there was one witness.

Dmman
05-01-2012, 03:24 PM
The defense, or crown for that matter, cannot reveal new info in their closing statements without facts? In other words, we shouldn't be anticipating a bombshell from either side during closing?

robynhood
05-01-2012, 03:25 PM
...all I have to say is ...Thank God the trial is official over...!:)....closing statements are due Friday at !0;00...I hope Tori is smiling fro above...RIP our little angel !...May Tori's family finally Not have to deal with MR and this whole horrendous MURDER!...My heart is broken...as IMO ...this NEVER should have occurred in Ontario..the end from me for now ...Robynhood ..exhausted is how I feel...The end ...may we all remeber Tori in our hearts and consider what Rodney said below....I pray another child never has to have this occur as I love children with all my heart...robynhood!<3

matou
05-01-2012, 03:26 PM
Wow, that really is it. All there is. He's toast. JMO

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 03:26 PM
So Friday closing arguments and Monday the crown has closing arguments? So we should find out next week if the jury comes to a verdict or not?

Oldsoul2
05-01-2012, 03:27 PM
Guess we'll be on verdict watch on Tuesday, IMO a guilty verdict the same day, don't think this will take long

Alison
05-01-2012, 03:29 PM
I am quite confident that he will be found guilty on all charges. Where he is going he will not need POF to find partners.

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 03:31 PM
I didn't expect fire works from Derstine

it is a shame the defence didn't even give...a teeny tiny fire cracker

JUSTICE for lil Tori...is not far away...

jmo

tmhco
05-01-2012, 03:33 PM
Personally, any points made on cross by Derenstine were negated when he produced no evidence to back them up. So what TLM listened to gangster rap? Millions do. She was violent, understood. Still NO REASONABLE explanation for abducting VS. JMO

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 03:33 PM
I didn't expect fire works from Derstine

it is a shame the defence didn't even give...a teeny tiny fire cracker

JUSTICE for lil Tori...is not far away...

jmo

Maybe all the fireworks were let off from the Crown. I sure as heck said OMG a dozen times during all the testimony and evidence.

lightlady
05-01-2012, 03:33 PM
I agree with others that now it is up to Mr Derstine to close and bring together reasonable doubt about intent. It all comes down to him convincing the jurors that MR had no intent to kidnap and did not rape VS. If he can seed doubt there, then they will not be able to convict with first degree.
I do not believe the testimony today will be enough for that. There are still the issues of the drive by of the school, the hard-to-believe view that for two hours VS went along and never protested, etc.
As to the rape, the forensic evidence, missing bottoms, etc. will have to be enough.
I will be surprised if he is not convicted.

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 03:35 PM
i thought the defense would close last?

Mike Knoll: - if they call evidence, they forfeit the right to go last.


deliberations will start tuesday then?

Mike Knoll: - as soon as the judge's charge is complete deliberations will begin. It could take more than one day.


Will the closing statements be a part of this live feed as well

Mike Knoll: - yes

Macright
05-01-2012, 03:35 PM
Thats what I think. His closing arguments have to do with all the weird questions he has asked witnesses and it will all come together. I dont think he is stupid at all just surprised really that there was one witness.


actually I am not surprised because if anyone had seen MR or TLM other than the witness's that have already been called by the crown I am sure we would have heard something about them previously...we knew about everything else give or take...I knew last week when the crown wrapped up that this would be a short week, defence wise..really who else could the defence call..there were no witness's to the actual crime and I don't think a bunch of people swearing to his character would mean a great deal considering the judge had already warned the jury that his character was not on trial here..I think Dirk did a great job in his cross ..he got lots of info that throws doubt on some of the crowns evidence that could make the jury go.."but"..... we shall see but I bet we will have a verdict next week this time... there is no doubt there will be a jail sentence thrown at MR but it remains to be seen for what charges...JMO

Bravo
05-01-2012, 03:35 PM
The dance lessons should come in handy too. Especially the side step when Big Bubba is trying to make a run at ya. MOO

JayFriend
05-01-2012, 03:36 PM
I guess the Judge must need time to write his charge, because the Shafia charge to the jury was over 200 pages.

That is the only thing I can think of, why a 2 day break would be allowed, after what I can only surmise as a non-existant effort for defense.

So the judge would write his charge before the summations by the defence and Crown? I suppose that makes sense because the summations aren't evidence, just sales pitches and interpretations of the evidence.

crazyladi
05-01-2012, 03:40 PM
I just dont think there was any evidence to back MTR. Where is the evidence of a drug debt? If that is why TLM took TS then where is his evidence? Sorry just not buying it.

I am telling you his closing arguments are going to be TLM needed to kill someone as initiation in to the EOA gang and he was afraid to go to the police... JMO

JayFriend
05-01-2012, 03:42 PM
The defense, or crown for that matter, cannot reveal new info in their closing statements without facts? In other words, we shouldn't be anticipating a bombshell from either side during closing?

That would be my take. The defence can't even make suggestions, like he did trying to lead TLM into agreeing with his hypotheses. But you legal eagles can correct me if I'm wrong. Can the defence put forward alternate theories of what might have happened that's not in evidence? Gang initiations, the whole 9 yards?

Macright
05-01-2012, 03:42 PM
I am quite confident that he will be found guilty on all charges. Where he is going he will not need POF to find partners.


no but he may have to take up golf as he could be sent to that new prison in BC with all the perks....JMO

Salem
05-01-2012, 03:48 PM
Steven D'Souza ‏ @cbcsteve
Defence closing arguments go on Friday. Crown's closing goes on Monday, judge charges the jury on Tuesday #Rafferty #sl

Canada is much like the Italian system - hurry and wait while we do whatever. In the US -- defense would close tomorrow, if there was time the State would follow, if not, then Thursday.

They just had 4 days off, including 2 working days. Both sides should have closings prepared and ready to present. The Crown may need to tweak a bit to accommodate today's witness, but that's it. Now.... we have to wait until the end of the week and move into next week before the jury will begin to deliberate. I'm mind-boggled at the extensive delays. Just seems to me it costs lots of time and money.

Oh well..... we will wait (but not patiently) LOL!

Salem

Dmman
05-01-2012, 03:49 PM
That would be my take. The defence can't even make suggestions, like he did trying to lead TLM into agreeing with his hypotheses. But you legal eagles can correct me if I'm wrong. Can the defence put forward alternate theories of what might have happened that's not in evidence? Gang initiations, the whole 9 yards?

That's exactly what I was trying to convey! Thanks :)

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 03:49 PM
Kingston Pen's children, child killers, murderers and monsters
Canada's oldest penitentiary to close after nearly 180 years

Intersesting article

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/04/22/f-kingston-penitentiary-inmates.html

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 03:51 PM
no but he may have to take up golf as he could be sent to that new prison in BC with all the perks....JMO

Hope not

Government had better tread very carefully as to where Rafferty will end up at

jmo

littlebirdie
05-01-2012, 03:52 PM
Yes, he has aged through this trial. Rodney's kids can be proud of their father and how he has set an example of how to soldier on in the face of great tragedy. What a good example for his son's. I think we will be hearing from Rodney Stafford many times over the next years; he has come into his own and has so much to offer others in a similar crisis. MOO I remember when he rode his bike across country, I felt like every revolution of his pedals was a tear shed for Tori. It was powerful example of how to positively push through tribulation and positive coping skills. JMO With all the talk of drugs and tragedy in lives during this trial; he delivered a needed message for this community about developing good coping skills and for young people, that drugs are not the answer. IMO

I couldn't have said this better myself. All day today and throughout this entire ordeal I have been pondering my thoughts about Rodney and -- if I can word this correctly -- even after Victoria's death, Rodney will always have a meaningful connection to his daughter through the work he is doing regarding the safety of all our precious children. I will definitely watch for him in the future and be waiting for 'Tori's Law' to become a reality. This is the bright light to come out of this terrible darkness. I think of it as Victoria's light. So much discussion and awareness has been brought forward. MOO

~n/t~
05-01-2012, 03:53 PM
Canada is much like the Italian system - hurry and wait while we do whatever. In the US -- defense would close tomorrow, if there was time the State would follow, if not, then Thursday.

They just had 4 days off, including 2 working days. Both sides should have closings prepared and ready to present. The Crown may need to tweak a bit to accommodate today's witness, but that's it. Now.... we have to wait until the end of the week and move into next week before the jury will begin to deliberate. I'm mind-boggled at the extensive delays. Just seems to me it costs lots of time and money.

Oh well..... we will wait (but not patiently) LOL!

Salem


Yup and taxpayers are footing the bill. UGH

Sailor Bug
05-01-2012, 03:54 PM
Mike Knoll: - complete archived minutes here: http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/23/19539806.html

Alison
05-01-2012, 04:04 PM
no but he may have to take up golf as he could be sent to that new prison in BC with all the perks....JMO

Well that would be a sad day in Canadian Justice if a child killer (my opinion as he has not yet been judged) gets to golf.
If he is found guilty he should have to go to Milhaven, and have to live in general population, for that is all a child killer deserves (they deserve less but that is Canadian justice for you).
I want him to feel the terror Tori felt those last few hours of her life, but I want him to feel them every minute of every day for the rest of his life.

Kamille
05-01-2012, 04:05 PM
Canada is much like the Italian system - hurry and wait while we do whatever. In the US -- defense would close tomorrow, if there was time the State would follow, if not, then Thursday.

They just had 4 days off, including 2 working days. Both sides should have closings prepared and ready to present. The Crown may need to tweak a bit to accommodate today's witness, but that's it. Now.... we have to wait until the end of the week and move into next week before the jury will begin to deliberate. I'm mind-boggled at the extensive delays. Just seems to me it costs lots of time and money.

Oh well..... we will wait (but not patiently) LOL!

Salem

As a Canadian taxpayer, I'm surprised by this too. The backlog in our courts is terrible from what I understand and this is a classic example of why. Has that courtroom been used to try other short cases during all of these days off? Will it be used in the next two days? This trial was predicted to last into June. It could have been finished in less than two months if they had adhered to a regular working schedule like the rest of the population. That courtroom was tied up all day every day when court was in session and they only used it for about 4 hours of actual court time each day. They started at 10am, were usually done by 4pm or sometimes earlier and they took two 20 minute breaks and an hour and half lunch each day.

It's pretty frustrating.

MOO

Kamille
05-01-2012, 04:08 PM
Thats what I think. His closing arguments have to do with all the weird questions he has asked witnesses and it will all come together. I dont think he is stupid at all just surprised really that there was one witness.

There are no witnesses that can back up whatever he's going to say in his closing arguments IMO.

There are none because it will not be the truth. It will likely be some spun story of MR's "version of events".

MOO

snoofer
05-01-2012, 04:14 PM
I agree this is what they are trying to prove. I however find it a redundant point as he would not have witnessed her enter the school as he was hidding out in a parking lot.
If he had been waiting outside the doors and saw her enter then I would perhaps buy the babysitting story.
This witness did nothing to help his case IMO.
I also still do not beleive TLM entered the school, far too risky IMO.
(Otto I just piggy backed off your post to say what I felt about the testimonry and what they want us to believe :)

maybe TLM had to use the bathroom so used it at the school; then continued on looking for the perfect kid. MOO

Jezbel
05-01-2012, 04:14 PM
Maybe that's what MR was writing the whole time, his own version of the closing argument for Derstine LOL.

sillybilly
05-01-2012, 04:14 PM
Canada is much like the Italian system - hurry and wait while we do whatever. In the US -- defense would close tomorrow, if there was time the State would follow, if not, then Thursday.

They just had 4 days off, including 2 working days. Both sides should have closings prepared and ready to present. The Crown may need to tweak a bit to accommodate today's witness, but that's it. Now.... we have to wait until the end of the week and move into next week before the jury will begin to deliberate. I'm mind-boggled at the extensive delays. Just seems to me it costs lots of time and money.

Oh well..... we will wait (but not patiently) LOL!

Salem


Hey, even lawyers are entitled to weekends off :) Ye olde "not only must justice be done, but it must be seen to be done" ... Although to us it is about justice for Tori, it is MTR's trial and, while we may not like it much, justice is for him as well. He has a right that it not be rushed just for expediency of the court and costs to the taxpayer.

We've come this far, what's a few extra hours of prep? As for extra costs, it should still boil down to billable hours, actual court time involved, and the pittance the jurors receive. The lawyers may have a bit of extra time logged in revamping closing arguments in relation to today's witness, but not sure the total would amount to much in the scheme of things.

JMO

snoofer
05-01-2012, 04:16 PM
I agree this is what they are trying to prove. I however find it a redundant point as he would not have witnessed her enter the school as he was hidding out in a parking lot.
If he had been waiting outside the doors and saw her enter then I would perhaps buy the babysitting story.
This witness did nothing to help his case IMO.
I also still do not beleive TLM entered the school, far too risky IMO.
(Otto I just piggy backed off your post to say what I felt about the testimonry and what they want us to believe :)

maybe TLM had to use the bathroom so used it at the school; then continued on looking for the perfect kid. MOO

I mean look at MTR; he went to Genest!! That was gutsy considering what he knew! JMO

pattywack
05-01-2012, 04:16 PM
If TLM was more involved in the actually kidnapping then first thought, it doesn't make the murder any less his fault. Remember the opening when the Crown stated about them acting together? He was still there with TLM and did nothing. Still a murder charge, still life in prision IMO.

I don't really understand ...How can she be MORE involved? Whether she went into the school or not is really immaterial. They both kidnapped her,... from where ever.MMO.

Ardy
05-01-2012, 04:17 PM
Where did you read that? That would suggest that prisons are full of innocent, poor victims of the justice system - simply not true.

There is plea bargaining, but that usualy happens because the evidence is overwhelming and the accused is hoping for a reduced sentence. Plea bargaining is also used when there are two suspects and one is testifying against the other.

I'd sure like to see a link to statements from the Supreme Court that "too many innocent people ... couldn't afford the legal fees" ... legal aid is in place for anyone that cannot afford legal fees.

Most convictions don't result in incarceration.

In Canada, our sentencing is based on the premise that incarceration is a last resort punishment and other forms of punishment are to be considered first.

At their first appearance in court, the Crown will submit to the accused a form which outlines the penalty they are seeking. Usually, they will include an offer to plea bargain early.

Legal aid must be applied for and the Crown must be seeking incarceration. The application also requires bank statements and lists of assets. Only low income people with no assets, who are facing incarceration qualify for legal aid.

Canadians have a right to legal representation, but the government doesn't provide it for free to everyone. If a person has assets or sufficient income, they are expected to pay their own legal fees.

Faced with the prospect of probation or a lawyer bill in the tens of thousands of dollars...........a lot of people just plead guilty.

Here is a link to the rate of conviction in Ontario in 2002.

http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/pi/icg-gci/pb6-rpc6.html

Department of Justice of Canada, Research and Statistics Division, JustStats (No.2002-01), October 2002.

[30]The 91.3% figure includes all charges that are resolved by guilty pleas or withdrawn by the prosecutor. (See The Commission on Proceedings Involving Guy Paul Morin, Testimony of Peter Griffiths relating to Exhibit 292, Statistical Monitoring Report of Ontario Court, Provincial Division,12 December 1997, available on Quick Law in database "CRCM".) Of the 91.3% of cases, 75.5% were resolved before trial, while the other 15.8% remained unresolved until the day set for trial. (See The Investment Strategy Report, Ontario Ministry of the Attorney General, Third Quarter of 1998, referred to in the Report of the Criminal Justice Review Committee, February 1999, Chapter 6, Part 4, available on Quick Law in database "CRCM".)


As to a link to the Supreme Court discussion on the effect of plea bargaining........I will have a look for it when I have time.

JMO.........

Oldsoul2
05-01-2012, 04:26 PM
Does anyone know if MR's lawyer is provided by legal aid or is someone paying him for MR

littlebirdie
05-01-2012, 04:26 PM
I've actually had a problem with the school's responsibility in this from the start. I've spent years picking up children from school and I have seen it all. There are supposed to be teachers on the grounds when children are let out of school, but I've seen plenty of days when there were none. Teachers are often busy packing up for the day or preparing for a meeting ... they are not always where they are supposed to be - especially the tenured ones.

I recall one day where someone else's child was injured, crying and everyone ignoring him. There were no teachers outside at dismissal time and parents were focused on their own children. The child was bleeding so I took him to the washroom, cleaned him up, cheered him up and then took him back out of the school. No one intervened or did anything. I kept thinking that someone was going to ask me what I was doing, but no one did.

Another time my nephew thought that recess was lunch and accidentally he went home. No one noticed that he was missing until noon ... apparently no one was supervising the playground at recess so no one saw him leave.

The school I'm referring to is a good school in a good area, but teachers were sloppy ... when I heard about Victoria's disappearance, my first thought was that one of the teachers was not doing his/her job.

That said, I'm not convinced that the witness really saw the white coat person enter the school or that it was TLM.

Sections respectfully bolded by me. Upon reading this, your own experiences just gave me the chills. My children are grown adults now but the mere idea of any school not being a safe haven is distressing. I am in no way judging teachers as solely responsible for the school atmosphere as I have not worked in their shoes. My children rode the school bus for most of their school years and had family always pick them up during other periods. As a child many ions ago, I walked home from school by myself in a small town and my family always felt that I was completely safe. Times have changed. It's sad.

I am hoping that along with Tori's Law becoming a reality, further protocol is put in place to increase the awareness and safety of all children in as many ways as possible going into the future. MOO

pattywack
05-01-2012, 04:28 PM
An attempt to show since TLM was brazen enough to enter the school MTR had no other reason to believe this was just a babysitting stint.

MTR wasn't there. How would he know whether she entered the school or not? Was it visible from the nursing home parking lot?

Macright
05-01-2012, 04:30 PM
There are no witnesses that can back up whatever he's going to say in his closing arguments IMO.

There are none because it will not be the truth. It will likely be some spun story of MR's "version of events".

MOO


so actually it all comes down to "she said, he said"...that is scary because look at the character of "she said"....JMO wow the courts and the crown that my taxes help support only have the word of a self confessed murderer to go on...JMO

Oldsoul2
05-01-2012, 04:34 PM
so actually it all comes down to "she said, he said"...that is scary because look at the character of "she said"....JMO wow the courts and the crown that my taxes help support only have the word of a self confessed murderer to go on...JMO

Irrelevant, it's hearsay unless the defense would have liked to prove what they presented with hard evidence, which they didn't which the Crown did.

snoofer
05-01-2012, 04:34 PM
Canada is much like the Italian system - hurry and wait while we do whatever. In the US -- defense would close tomorrow, if there was time the State would follow, if not, then Thursday.

They just had 4 days off, including 2 working days. Both sides should have closings prepared and ready to present. The Crown may need to tweak a bit to accommodate today's witness, but that's it. Now.... we have to wait until the end of the week and move into next week before the jury will begin to deliberate. I'm mind-boggled at the extensive delays. Just seems to me it costs lots of time and money.

Oh well..... we will wait (but not patiently) LOL!

Salem

no wonder it takes so long to get to trial with backlog. MOO

Ardy
05-01-2012, 04:36 PM
I just dont think there was any evidence to back MTR. Where is the evidence of a drug debt? If that is why TLM took TS then where is his evidence? Sorry just not buying it.

I am telling you his closing arguments are going to be TLM needed to kill someone as initiation in to the EOA gang and he was afraid to go to the police... JMO

Derstine won't be trying to prove his theory, but putting holes into the Crown accusations by way of another possible scenario.

I agree that Derstine made his inroads during the cross examinations.

He destroyed TLM's credibility with the revelations of the letters, music, and statements to her godmother. The jury now has to decide to believe all or any of TLM's testimony.

He forced the pathologist and forensics expert to admit there was no scientific proof of a sexual assault.

In addition to those cross examinations, Derstine presented a witness that raised questions with TLM's statements on how she abducted VS, and that there was no evidence of nefarious content on MR's Blackberry.

The Crown and defense now have the job of tying it up all for the jury to ponder during deliberations.

We will see how that goes.

JMO...............

Kamille
05-01-2012, 04:41 PM
so actually it all comes down to "she said, he said"...that is scary because look at the character of "she said"....JMO wow the courts and the crown that my taxes help support only have the word of a self confessed murderer to go on...JMO

No...TLM told her version and the Crown backed it up with evidence. MR chose not to tell his version. But his lawyer will try...with nothing to back it up.

MOO

Kamille
05-01-2012, 04:43 PM
Derstine won't be trying to prove his theory, but putting holes into the Crown accusations by way of another possible scenario.

I agree that Derstine made his inroads during the cross examinations.

He destroyed TLM's credibility with the revelations of the letters, music, and statements to her godmother. The jury now has to decide to believe all or any of TLM's testimony.

He forced the pathologist and forensics expert to admit there was no scientific proof of a sexual assault.

In addition to those cross examinations, Derstine presented a witness that raised questions with TLM's statements on how she abducted VS, and that there was no evidence of nefarious content on MR's Blackberry.

The Crown and defense now have the job of tying it up all for the jury to ponder during deliberations.

We will see how that goes.

JMO...............

Speaking of those statements...where is the proof of context? Just hearsay without it.

MOO

Kamille
05-01-2012, 04:44 PM
MTR wasn't there. How would he know whether she entered the school or not? Was it visible from the nursing home parking lot?

He was in the gas station at the time.

ETA: Not getting any gas that I'm aware of.

MOO

matou
05-01-2012, 04:47 PM
Sorry, I haven't read through everything yet. Did either side bring up a police report from the witness' statement to police during today's testimony? Did she mention to police at that time that she saw the white-coat woman enter the school?

Flowercb
05-01-2012, 04:49 PM
ITA! I personally believed he plead not guilty in hopes he'd be released at some point per-trial. He had no defense to the crimes he's accused of committing! For a split second this morning, I actually thought Grandmom was going to testify she went along for the ride to MT Forest with MR & TLM & Tori and that she followed MR on his "walk" while TLM murdered little Tori. I was not expecting nothing from Derstine!

LOL I nearly spit my drink out at the computer monitor.

Ardy
05-01-2012, 04:50 PM
Speaking of those statements...where is the proof of context? Just hearsay without it.

MOO

TLM admitted to the statements during cross examination.

JMO........

KMouse
05-01-2012, 04:50 PM
The dance lessons should come in handy too. Especially the side step when Big Bubba is trying to make a run at ya. MOO

He can share the cell block with Bernardo and Williams. Unfortunately it will be somewhere much nicer than Kingston.

Ardy
05-01-2012, 04:53 PM
Does anyone know if MR's lawyer is provided by legal aid or is someone paying him for MR

No income..........no assets..........probably legal aid.

But the lawyer has to be willing to work for the legal aid stipend, although in trials like this the defense can apply for additional funding to provide an adequate defense.

Derstine could be doing it for free.........lawyers do that for some cases as part of their "charitable" work.

Or.........someone with very deep pockets is paying the bill.

JMO..............

Macright
05-01-2012, 04:54 PM
sorry maybe it is just me but I find it rather derogatory in the way that some people are referring to that witness this morning who took the trouble to notify police with what she witnessed and was a reluctant witness for the defence...why not just refer to her as another witness.. JMO it doesn't take much to realize that some are making a joke of this witness with the references to her eyesight and other things...I think that is really unfair and as I said derogatory... If my post is not in line with what is permitted on this site then I will respect if a Mod chooses to delete it but this is my opinion ...respectfully.... I will not go the route of alerting or pointing out posts but they are here...JMO it's almost as if who can top another...JMO

KMouse
05-01-2012, 04:56 PM
I am really not sure what Derstine can say in his closing arguments. None of his suggestions were backed with any evidence.

Friday morning should be interesting.

Macright
05-01-2012, 04:58 PM
Derstine won't be trying to prove his theory, but putting holes into the Crown accusations by way of another possible scenario.

I agree that Derstine made his inroads during the cross examinations.

He destroyed TLM's credibility with the revelations of the letters, music, and statements to her godmother. The jury now has to decide to believe all or any of TLM's testimony.

He forced the pathologist and forensics expert to admit there was no scientific proof of a sexual assault.

In addition to those cross examinations, Derstine presented a witness that raised questions with TLM's statements on how she abducted VS, and that there was no evidence of nefarious content on MR's Blackberry.

The Crown and defense now have the job of tying it up all for the jury to ponder during deliberations.

We will see how that goes.

JMO...............


I think he has already put some holes in the crown's evidence or lack of use of it...JMO

JayFriend
05-01-2012, 05:00 PM
Maybe that's what MR was writing the whole time, his own version of the closing argument for Derstine LOL.
I sure hope the judge instructs the jury they are only to consider facts in evidence, not stories told by counsel in closing arguments. Even if Destine claims to be relating something Rafferty told him, or he deduced from TLM's rants and scribbles, it's not evidence.

Macright
05-01-2012, 05:01 PM
I sure hope the judge instructs the jury they are only to consider facts in evidence, not stories told by counsel in closing arguments. Even if Destine claims to be relating something Rafferty told him, or he deduced from TLM's rants and scribbles, it's not evidence.


then why bother to have closing arguments...seems a waste of time to me if the jury is not supposed to mull over them...JMO

lightlady
05-01-2012, 05:14 PM
In my opinion, Derstine used the witness today to try to show that VS was targetted by TLM (read "drug debt or gangs") and went willingly ("read MR didn't know what was going on"). He will tie it together with his closing argument to leave reasonable doubt on the Crown's case. I don't think he has to prove his scenario, just leave reasonable doubt about it happening the way the crown tried to show it did.
I think at this point he will try to spin the most believable yarn he can, because really that is all that he has got. In my mind the Crown did about the best job they could to give some credibility to TLM (scary) and provide what evidence was possible after MR had 3 months to cover his tracks.

Ardy
05-01-2012, 05:20 PM
I sure hope the judge instructs the jury they are only to consider facts in evidence, not stories told by counsel in closing arguments. Even if Destine claims to be relating something Rafferty told him, or he deduced from TLM's rants and scribbles, it's not evidence.

The Crown will be putting together circumstantial evidence to prove their case.

The defense can use much of the same evidence to provide a different story.

Just one example.............

The pea coat...............

Will the Crown say that VS was hidden under the pea coat for several hours?

Will the defense then question that assertion by using the fact there was no DNA evidence from VS found on the coat? There was other DNA...but not from VS.

The expert testimony was there was no DNA evidence for VS on the coat, so Derstine would be using evidence (or the lack of it) to support his theory.

In some ways, the scientific evidence helped the defense, because so much of it had results that were inconclusive.

JMO.............

Dmman
05-01-2012, 05:21 PM
Without an opening statement this morning, I'm not sure what Derstine was trying to prove with his witness. He didn't try to tie in a gang related-drug debt-child abduction for ransom. So I'm still left confused as to this witness' testimony. It's real hard to follow this trial sometimes when you're relying on twitter reports! I'm assuming there's so much more that will be released (finally!) when the jury are sequestered.

Flowercb
05-01-2012, 05:33 PM
JMO I don't know if I can explain this simply but IMO so far..the questions that Dirk has thrown out there on cross and the info he has garnered by asking short simple questions and not going around and around leads me to believe that this Dirk is a smart cookie..those questions and responses cannot be ignored because it leaves some doubt in the crown's case IMO... I believe he knows exactly what he is doing..he must because he has people wondering and talking....JMO It will be interesting to hear his closing remarks...JMO

"Dirk" certainly hasn't fooled a lot or most of us here though. MOO.

Ardy
05-01-2012, 05:36 PM
Without an opening statement this morning, I'm not sure what Derstine was trying to prove with his witness. He didn't try to tie in a gang related-drug debt-child abduction for ransom. So I'm still left confused as to this witness' testimony. It's real hard to follow this trial sometimes when you're relying on twitter reports! I'm assuming there's so much more that will be released (finally!) when the jury are sequestered.

I am wondering if the defense had a difficult time getting anyone willing to testify, given a lot of people involved seem to be involved in drugs.

While all of us would readily step forward if we knew something, those involved in drugs may not be so eager to incriminate themselves or to talk about things that could cause them trouble in the future.

Some of the witnesses who did come forward during this trial put themselves into the public eye...........and are not going to benefit from it to say the least.

Other than TLM.........did anyone step forward with testimony who admitted they were drug addicts themselves?

Rather unusual in a trial where the background is so full of drugs.

JMO.................

nursebeeme
05-01-2012, 05:37 PM
new thread : move on over.. this one will close very shortly

The wait for closing arguments discussion thread - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community